YFP 335: Pharmacy Innovators w/ Dr. Adam Martin Hosted by Dr. Corrie Sanders


In this Pharmacy Innovators episode, sponsored by First Horizon, Dr. Adam Martin joins Dr. Corrie Sanders to share keys to success and living at a high level.

Episode Summary

On this episode in our Pharmacy Innovators series hosted by Corrie Sanders, PharmD, we get a masterclass from Tony Robbins coach Adam Martin, PharmD.

You’ll want to get our your journal to write down the wisdom Adam shares.  He dives deep into the keys of success and living life at a higher level, emphasizing the importance of having fun in your journey to success. The message is clear: if you’re not having a blast, you might be doing it wrong.

Are you in the right environment? Are external influences steering you off course?

Success leaves clues, and Adam shares a powerful tip for achieving it quickly: proximity. The three-step mantra is simple—get close to people playing the game at the level you aspire to.

A must listen episode for everyone looking to become their best self and living life as it was intended!

About Today’s Guest

As a Tony Robbins Results Coach and Business Results Trainer, my focus is not only on where you want to be, but also on recognizing the value of the space you’re currently in—the space between where you used to be and where you desire to go. It is within this space that growth and transformation happen, and my role is to leverage the progress you’ve already made to propel you towards the results you truly deserve. I am dedicated to helping individuals achieve unprecedented levels of success and transformation, all while ensuring that the process is enjoyable and fulfilling.

Creator of The Fit Pharmacist, I host the weekly Script Your Confidence Podcast. As a doctorate in pharmacy having written multiple authored books, along with running my own speaking business and being certified as a personal trainer and nutrition consultant, I possess over a decade of experience working with high-level clients. I have honed my expertise in guiding clients towards their goals, overcoming limitations, and maximizing performance through a deep understanding of human behavior and performance. My coaching approach is results-focused, action-oriented, and tailored to the unique needs and aspirations of each client.

My clients come from diverse backgrounds, including entrepreneurs, healthcare professionals, executives, athletes, and individuals seeking personal growth and fulfillment. I am committed to creating a results-driven coaching environment where they can transform burdens into blessings by mastering the art of resourcefulness and overcoming past obstacles.

I utilize cutting-edge tools and strategies from Tony Robbins’ proven methodologies, combined with my insights and expertise from implementing his material in my own life. This combination facilitates powerful shifts and helps individuals unlock the next level of their potential.

My mission is to coach you to unlock your full potential, live a life of personal excellence, amplify your impact, and create a future that surpasses your wildest dreams.

Key Points From the Episode

  • Finding fulfillment in pharmacy careers through self-discovery and empowerment. [2:35]
  • Career changes, impostor syndrome, and the power of the mind. [6:22]
  • Overcoming obstacles to pursue pharmacy school and leadership roles. [9:31]
  • Adam Martin, a pharmacist and fitness enthusiast, shares his journey of using fitness to fuel his transformation and improve his studies in pharmacy school. [14:56]
  • Career development and non-traditional income sources. [21:55]
  • Overcoming obstacles to pursue pharmacy school and leadership roles. [9:31]
  • Adam Martin, a pharmacist and fitness enthusiast, shares his journey of using fitness to fuel his transformation and improve his studies in pharmacy school. [14:56]
  • Career development and non-traditional income sources. [21:55]
  • Pharmacy career, personal growth, and mindset. [23:48]
  • Cultivating a positive mindset in challenging situations. [28:59]
  • Adam Martin struggled with depression and anxiety, which led him to Tony Robbins’ work. [31:42]
  • Adam Martin emphasizes the importance of sharing one’s experiences and insights with others, even if they feel they are not good enough or have not figured everything out. [38:17]
  • Gratitude practice and its impact on mental well-being. [43:50]
  • Career growth and mindset shift from pharmacist to entrepreneur. [45:41]
  • Faith, career, and taking risks. [50:54]
  • Following God’s call to leave a job despite lack of plan or logic. [57:26]
  • Career transition from pharmacist to coach. [1:00:06]
  • Faith, career change, and pharmacy. [1:05:24]
  • Identity crisis in pharmacy profession. [1:10:51]
  • The future of pharmacy and entrepreneurship. [1:15:00]
  • Making career changes and preparing for the future. [1:19:39]
  • Adam Martin emphasizes the importance of living with integrity, serving others, and having fun in life. [1:24:36]

Episode Highlights

“Oftentimes we get stuck, we just get stopped by saying I don’t have the resources. I don’t know the right people. I don’t have the money. I don’t have enough time. The question isn’t resources. It’s how resourceful can you be? Because again, all you need is all you have, because all you have is within you now. And that’s a core belief. And if you have that belief, that will drive your actions. And when you take those actions by asking the right question, the quality of questions you ask will directly determine the quality of life that you live. Ask a better question, get a better answer.” –Adam Martin [27:15]

“And here’s the thing that I want to and I really want to drive home is that there are always both two things happening at the same time. A loss and a gain. With everything, even my mom passing away, that was a loss. And there was also a gain, someone doing you wrong, there’s a loss and there’s a gain, getting a raise, there’s a gain, and there’s a loss. You get to choose which of the two you focus on and what you focus on, you’ll feel because we’re focus goes energy flows.” – Adam Martin [28:21]

“It’s about facing it and choosing to see it as it is not worse than it is choosing to see it better than it is because that’s the role of a leader is see the vision while no one else may be able to and then make it the way you want to see it. That’s really leadership is all about making decisions in the hard times. And I’m not talking about being a leader position, per se, I’m talking about being the leader of your life. CEO of you. Because guess what, you get to choose what you focus on. Because there’s always both something gained and something lost at the same time. And what you feel comes from what you choose to focus on.” –Adam Martin [29:42]

“So when you think you’re not good enough to help people, you don’t have to have it all figured out. You just have to be 10% ahead of the person you’re looking to help and committed to constant and never ending improvement. So from that perspective, I wonder how many souls you can pour into, I wonder how many people you can bring hope to.” -Adam Martin [40:17]

“So if you’re in a job and that doesn’t mean I’m telling you to quit, but say could you be focusing on the wrong thing because you’re influenced by other people in your profession. Maybe you’re hanging out in the wrong Facebook groups. Maybe you need to listen to more YFP. Maybe we get more engaged in that community. Maybe you need to instead of listening to people who are complaining and have a life that you don’t want. Maybe you need to connect with people who are living a life through the integrity and character and lifestyle that you actually do want. Because success leaves clues.” Adam Martin [1:29:23]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

Corrie Sanders  00:01

Hi YFP community! Corrie Sanders here host of the Pharmacy Innovators segment of the YFP Podcast. Pharmacy Innovators is designed for pharmacists navigating the entrepreneurial journey. In this series, we feature pharmacy founder stories and strategies that help guide current and aspiring pharmacy entrepreneurs. Today we featured Dr. Adam Martin, known on social media as the Fit Pharmacist. Adam is a pharmacy entrepreneur that recently transitioned out of the retail space after over a decade of practice. Adam has worked with pharmacy schools and organizations across the world on leadership and branding careers since becoming the first pharmacist within the National Speakers Association in 2019. This is the same year that he was recognized as the most influential pharmacist in the profession. Dr. Martin is now a Tony Robbins results coach in 2023. And our conversation is rooted in fitness, faith and finance. He shares many inspirational life sentiments and lessons along the way. Grab a journal and please enjoy my conversation with Dr. Adam Martin.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

Tim Ulbrich  01:04

Does saving 20% for a down payment on a home feels like an uphill battle. It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high student loan debt, meaning that saving 20% for a down payment on a home may take years. We’ve been on a hunt for a solution for pharmacists that are ready to purchase a home loan with a lower down payment and are happy to have found that option with First Horizon. First Horizon offers a professional home loan option aka doctor or pharmacist home loan that requires a 3% downpayment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers, has no PMI and offers a 30 year fixed rate mortgage on home loans up to $726,200. The pharmacist home loan is available in all states except Alaska and Hawaii, and can be used to purchase condos as well. However, rates may be higher, and a condo review has to be completed. To check out the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan. And to start the pre approval process. Visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[EPISODE]

Corrie Sanders  02:15

All right, today we’ve got Dr. Adam Martin with us. Adam, thank you for being here with the YFP community. 

Adam Martin  02:23

Happy to be here. Thank you for the opportunity. 

Corrie Sanders  02:26

So we will start things off pretty easy. Why don’t you just introduce yourself to the audience a little bit, about where you’re from and where you went to pharmacy school.

Adam Martin  02:35

Happy to. So my name is Dr. Adam Martin. I’m known as the Fit Pharmacist. So if you’ve been on social media for the last 10 years, that’s me Mr. Memes, Mr. Positivity, encouragement, how to break through all those sorts of things. And pharmacy has been an incredibly tremendous asset. For me, it’s been a huge, huge opportunity for so many things. And I’m so so grateful for it. And my journey is a little different, because I’m one of those crazy people that actually liked retail. Yes, I worked full time for 10 years in one of those big three letter companies. And I actually had fun, I actually loved it. I mean, if you weren’t there for 10 years, you must like it at some degree, right? So. So that’s kind of where my journey started. And it actually started with rejection. And that’s really what my whole brand was about. It was about encouraging people who were not qualified or didn’t feel qualified, who had some knocks down, they weren’t really set up for success, so to say. So to really encourage them that your start doesn’t mean it’s your end, to encourage you that you may not be feeling like you’re qualified, but you have all that you need. Because all you need is within you now. That you can be resourceful and actually use what was perceived as a setback as a set up for your success. And that’s exactly what the Fit Pharmacist was all about. It was about encouraging people to use what you felt was your mess, to turn it into your message to encourage others to do the same. Because all too often what I found, and what I’ve heard a lot of my clients say is that it’s there’s a lot of imposter syndrome. There’s a lot of do I even belong here? Who am I look at everyone else I feel behind? What am I doing? Do I have a chance and using those perceptions of disqualification as the exact reasons to qualify you to make an impact in people’s lives. And that’s what I started to recognize. The more I got into pharmacy, the more I got involved with social media and a blogging career and writing books and podcasting and speaking, all of which are parts of that journey. But the whole point of that was to let you know that you define what your future is. You have the pen, you get to write the story and you get to choose because the quality of your life is really two things. Its meaning and emotion. And you get to choose, is this the beginning? Or is this the end? So that’s really what what ignited me in that path of helping people that had so much talent, so much wisdom to really tap into that, and unapologetically own their fire so that they can ignite the spirit and other people to go and do the same. And I think that’s what we’re really here to do. And that’s really what is missing from pharmacy. For those who are feeling like there’s something missing in their career, in their in their passion, or maybe they feel like they don’t have one. It’s fulfillment. They may be successful, they may be making a ton of money, they may have the position, they may have all the degrees after their name. Have y’all ever met people that have more letters after their name than in their name, you know, the ones that have more degrees than a thermometer? They have all the success, but they feel empty inside. Because there’s not fulfillment. And that’s really what it is fulfillment. If you look at the word, we are meant to fill others up. And when you’re able to do that, by being willing to be known for who you truly are, the man or woman of God you were made to be, you can do that, fearlessly. Unapologetically. And when you do that, you inspire others to do the same. And that’s really why I’ve always done what I’ve done. Now I just do it on a deeper level as a full time coach working for Tony Robbins. So long story short, here we are.

Corrie Sanders  06:30

Now, there’s so many things that you said that I think we’ll touch on throughout the duration of this conversation. I mean, I think we’ll dive into impostor syndrome, I think we’ll talk about how you defined your life as meaningful throughout different chapters of your career. So let’s start with that initial rejection. Adam, when you said your career started from rejection, what did that look like for you? And then how did that transform into what you’re doing today? 

Adam Martin  06:53

100%. So, back when I knew everything about everything, as a 13 year old, I wanted to be a vet, a veterinarian, because back in the day, I have the astute wisdom that a vet was playing with puppies and getting paid for it. Until I got the bright idea to actually work at a vet hospital and see what actually a veterinarian does. And I got what you call an education, that that’s not what it is. And there’s a lot more to it. And while it was for good reasons, veterinarians put dogs to sleep almost every day. And again, while it’s for good reasons, I just couldn’t deal with that. So it wasn’t what I thought it was. And that’s the first piece of advice that I could give anyone that’s looking for a career change is getting multiple perspectives from people actually doing what you think you want to do. Because you may have your perception, but perception is not reality, especially when you don’t have any experience there. So that was the first thing that I did was I just got experience and where I thought I wanted to go. And it was right around that time. I was coming up to graduate high school. And my mom went in for a routine colonoscopy. And she had turned 50. I remember like it was yesterday and we’re filming this on a Wednesday. Ironically, it was a Wednesday. And I remember I remember it clear as day. Kissed her goodbye, went to school. I said good luck, mom. And I stayed after school in those days. And my dad picked me up after and he was never late. But he was super late that day. And I knew something wasn’t right. I got in the car, and he said mom failed her test. Now, I didn’t know this at the time. But at the point of diagnosis, she was given less than six months to live. She was they caught stage four metastatic colorectal cancer that had spread to her liver, lymph all over, all over her body. But she didn’t. She didn’t accept that. She refused that diagnosis. And she used the power of her mind and her faith to move forward through that. And she had multiple surgeries. And long story short, that’s what led me to pharmacy. Because being on so many medications, we were in the pharmacy most days of the week. And at this point in my life, I didn’t even know what a pharmacist was. We didn’t have any neighbors, no family, friends, nothing. And all I knew being in there picking up meds from a mom is that there’s the smart person in a white coat running around like a chicken with their head cut off trying to help strangers. And the more we were there, the more I saw this compassion that they had. They didn’t know us. We were strangers to them. But they treated us like we were actually family. How’s your mom doing? If you guys can’t get to the pharmacy, you’re not that far away, we’d be happy to drop it off. And it was the perfect timing that really caught this because it was a time when I didn’t know what I was going to do because I realized that I wasn’t going to be paid playing with puppies. And it was about to graduate high school so I had to figure something out. And from that modeling of just interacting with people, that’s what I wanted to do. So I had a very strong why that kept getting deeper and again, mind you at this time, I didn’t even know what a pharmacist did. I just saw this. And I said, I want to do that. So again, to the advice of the that I started to take my own advice, because success leaves clues. So I got some experience to shadow with some pharmacists. And I just saw the interaction, the impact that they had with people. And I thought this is pretty sweet. So I decided I’m going to be a pharmacist. So I did my two years and undergrad, applied to pharmacy school, I was so pumped, I had such a strong why I actually applied to three pharmacy schools, and I got rejected by every single one. And I’ll never forget it. I was sitting on my bunk bed, in my college dorm, like I had to make a decision. Like I really like thought with myself. And I was and also my undergrad advisor at the time said pharmacy is competitive, you may want to pursue and other options, consider some alternatives. And I was getting this advice. But I also had this clear why. And I was wrestling with it. I was like the the writing on the wall, the paper, the quote, “recommendations”, or to do something else, but I have this calling. And I didn’t really understand that at the time. But I decided to go for it again. So that required some summer school. That require an eating what I call some Humble Pie, retaking some classes, really doing whatever you could to up your grades to get more involved to really say I’m committed to this. So I ended up reapplying the next year. And I didn’t get in. But what I did get was waitlisted, which means we gave our offers to everyone we really want to let in. But if they say no, we’ll give you a chance. Let’s just be real. That’s what it means. Okay, so I ended up being dead last person getting into my class, and I was not going to waste the opportunity. And that light bulb clicked for me before pharmacy school started, it was like a couple days before, they have like a two day orientation. And the last thing they said is, by the way, you have to elect the president of your class. And I remember that this was 2008-2009. I still remember that moment, a light bulb went off, because all throughout like I’m an Eagle Scout, oh did all these leadership things. And I didn’t really understand what the purpose was going to be. But in that moment, it all made sense. I was born to be a class president. I didn’t even know what that meant. But I just had this again, this calling. I couldn’t even put a finger to it. So what did I do? Success leaves clues. I modeled the mentors. So I got a mentor who was a pharmacy student two years ahead of me shout out to Jimmy Gill, to attend to the hot step. This guy was awesome. I joined an organization called SNPHA, the Student National Pharmaceutical Association, which I’m a huge fan of their platform is serving the underserved. Shout out to y’all love y’all. Well, after one of the meetings, I went up to him like, Hey, man, I heard about this class president thing. And I really want to do it. But I have no clue because you have to give this five minute talk. And I don’t know what to say. And he says, Yo, this is what you do. You get up and say you’re gonna be a liaison between faculty and students. And when people hear that, they’re gonna say, Oh, he speaks French, and then they’ll vote for you. And that’s what happened. That’s what happened. So I did not waste that opportunity. That was my first like speaking gig, right? But I was so stoked. And I took that job. So seriously, I took notes, I sent weekly emails, I treated like that it was my full time job. And it was awesome. Because from that, I gained a lot of connections. I networked because I would be meeting with professors. I literally was that liaison, don’t ask me how to spell it. But I think I can say it well. But that’s what really helped me in networking initially, was stepping into that role and saying my class is counting on me. And they may not have. I hope they read the emails. But that was the identity that I adopted. And the strongest force in the human personality is the need to stay consistent in how we define ourselves. So all throughout pharmacy school, I really enjoyed that. And I ended up going to seven pharmacy conferences while I was a student. It was incredible. I met people I got to go all over the country, Florida, State of Washington all over it was so fun. And on my rotation my last year Pharmacy school, I was doing a rotation at the FDA. And I got a call from my dean. And I was like, Oh crap, what I do? But what happened was, she said, Adam, you might not know this, but every year for the graduating class, I personally give a scholarship to one male and one female who I believe is going to innovate the profession. And it’s for $10,000. I’m like wow, what a fun fact. That’s awesome. She’s like I’m picking you. So I went from being rejected saying you’re not going to get in to now you’re the most influential pharmacist in that I think that’s going to come out of your class. And again, I said, I’m not going to waste this opportunity. So what happened was, when I got into pharmacy school, I started to find this symbiotic relationship between fitness and pharmacy. And fitness for me began when my mom got diagnosed with cancer. At the time, I was bullied up into that point, most of my life, I was scrawny little kid, I was very quiet, believe it or not, yes, it did exist. But things change, right? So there’s proof positive. But what was through that time that I used fitness to really fuel my transformation. And whenever I got into pharmacy really looking to uplevel, my studies, I found that if you partied and screwed around and didn’t sleep, well, your workouts would suffer, and so would your performance in the classroom. But if you ate well, if you slept, if you did the things you knew were good for you, your workouts would be great. And your studies would also improve. So like I said, it became a symbiotic relationship. And the point of that is once I graduated pharmacy school in 2012, was right around when Instagram was happening. And my friends were like, Dude, you got to get this. And I’m like, Well, what is it? Like? Well, you just pick a name that represents what you’re about. So I was like, Okay, well, I like fitness. I’m a pharmacist, I’ll become the Fit Pharmacist. And that’s literally how it started. Then what happened was, I just started sharing stuff, things that I liked, nutrition, things like that. And when I graduated, I thought that if you’re in health care, you need to be leading by example. You’re promoting health. So you’ve got to walk the talk. And that just made sense to me. Until I realized that it wasn’t very common. Because I started to see people over time after graduation that started getting really stressed out, gaining weight all this stuff resentful. And I was like, What is going on? You’re a genius. How come you’re on the struggle bus. And they started to share with me the things that were in their way. And I started to say, oh, try this, oh, give this a try. And it started to work. So I wondered, I wonder if other people could help benefit from these tips. So I started sharing them on Instagram. And then I started to get a website, and I started to just share these little tips. And my first business was in 2013. Being a certified nutrition consultant, helping people with nutrition. As when I was going through pharmacy school, I wanted extra. So on my off block, I decided to become a certified personal trainer, which I did I pass that exam through American College of Sports Medicine, because I was doing it anyway. So I might as well use that as an asset. Right. And that helped with that first business. And the reason I tell you this, is there was a pharmacist who was starting his entrepreneurial journey, who saw that I was growing the following back in the day, I think it was like 1000 followers. He’s like, Hey, man, I’m starting my journey. I’m looking to get some traction, you have some followers? Can you like, give me a shout out or something? And I was like, well, let’s come up with this. How about how about, since you’re into fitness too, you share your fitness journey. And because I’m a dork, we’ll we’ll call it Fit Pharmacist Friday, and we’ll publish it on Friday, or just be a short little thing about how you define fitness. And we posted it. And I got five DMS in like the first hour of people saying I want to be featured, I want to be featured. And literally from that launched a four year four year blog campaign. Every Friday for four years. Pharmacist students from all over the world, it was friggin awesome. That’s really how my brand and business began, was just creating a platform, a space for people to have a voice, to feel like they mattered. So like give them a place where they can share how they could help other people who felt like they weren’t cut out for it, how they define fitness really giving their perspective of what’s important for them. And that’s really where the social media thing began. And that again, launched into, I wrote for three pharmacy magazines through the years in the United States also in South Africa, led to writing my first book, RX You, which was all about self care for pharmacists, and students grab it on Amazon, then that led to my second book, which helped pharmacy students overcome setbacks and really dominate pharmacy school. And that then led to publishing other books as well with co authoring, and launching a podcast that I still run to this day going on six years. There’s a new episode every week, and then it led to a speaking career. I became a professional speaker through the National Speakers Association. So long story short, those are the highlights but I’ll say I say all that to say, if someone tells you can’t do something, check in with yourself. Ask why am I doing this? Because if you ask how first you’ll always get overwhelmed you will always fall into what’s called the tyranny of how frustration overwhelm, and you’re just going to be stuck. That’s the maybe the right question but asked at the wrong time. The first question you want to ask is, what do I want? And get clear on it? The second question you want to ask is, why is this important? From an emotional connection? not logical. So oh, I want to do this because it’ll create a financial security for my family. That may be true, but get an emotional why to it, because he or she, who has their why can bear almost any how, once you then have a clear outcome, and you have a clear, emotionally driven reason why, then you can ask how because you’ll be pulled towards it, rather than feeling like you’re pushing all the time. And then all of that led to a coaching career. I’ve been coaching, like I said, since 2013, with nutrition, and that morphed into mindset and psychology, of really helping people get out of their own way, and live a life that was purpose driven and fulfilled on their terms, regardless of what they’ve gone through. And I’m not just picking this crap out of books, I’ve lived this stuff. I’ve coached hundreds of people through this, now 1000s, to really create a life on their terms, all over the world. And it’s really, really fulfilling. And as we’re filming this, as I mentioned, I think you’re my 13th Call today. And I mean, I’ve been up since 330. And you can hear, and I don’t even drink coffee. So it’s just fueled by passion. It’s fueled by passion. So once you get clear on those things that are really put you in a position where you can be of service to other people, because that’s really where fulfillment comes from. fulfillment is that you’re meant to fill others up. And when you can align with your God given purpose, it positions you to co mission with God. So to carry out the purposes to do that. And that’s really what I’m all about is helping people do that, too. 

Corrie Sanders  21:55

Yeah. And Adam, that is, I mean, such an inspirational story. And it’s so amazing to see how many unique facets there have been to your career. I mean, before I even dive into the next question, I just want to say I’m so I’m so sorry to hear about your mom. But it’s such a strong testament to her faith, and to your faith, to be able to take an event like that, and really changed the trajectory of your life in a very positive manner. And to be able to give back to so many others in a meaningful way. And to use that really is fuel. So I’m so sorry to hear that. But I’m so just amazed by the outcome. And I’m just I respect you so much for how you’ve turned that into something that’s so positive in your life. I think there’s a lot of different facets that I have questions about throughout your career. And the first one is you’ve you’ve dabbled in, in sports and fitness and speaking in various different engagements. What did that look like, in parallel with your community pharmacy position? So is that something that you were doing on the side while you still held this community pharmacy job? How did you split those incomes? What did the development of these supplemental non traditional incomes look like, while you were serving in that community pharmacy role? 

Adam Martin  23:10

Beautiful questions, and thank you so much for the kind words really appreciate that. And my belief is nothing has any meaning except the meaning you choose to give it. And while she was an amazing woman, still to this day, I hear people that she was a principal of a school, and she’s been gone 19 years. And still to this day, this just happened last month, I kid you not. I was at dinner with someone. And they said we were just in Florida. And we met someone we used to work with. And we mentioned your name. And they used to work with your mom, and they went on this half hour story. This happens all the time. It’s incredible. So the memory keeps going. So I really appreciate that. Thank you. And to answer your question. So I’ve I was I started full time pharmacy in 2012. I believe it was July. And actually no, it was and here’s how I know. Back then, before corporate realized that this was a liability, what we would do – and thanks to my partner for coming up with this with this idea. The partner that shared the pharmacy with me – is the idea was if we work three full time shifts, will have a week vacation every other week. So back then we would work I think it was 8am to 10pm. And we did three of those in a row. Now. I’ll be real the first couple months was rough. But after that it was normal, you adapt. So I remember it was July because that like a couple of weeks after I started the state insurance changed to the preferred insurance that my pharmacy that I worked for at the time had it. So there were about 30 to 50 transfers a day for a brand new pharmacist at a high volume store. So I remember my first full day I worked. I went at 8am and I was there until like 100-130. So that’s how I got fast at verifying prescriptions because I didn’t want to do that again. Right. To answer your question. Yes, I did this on the side. Although it wasn’t at the pharmacy. So that’s what that schedule allowed is we would do three full days. And then I would literally have a week vacation every other week, which gave me that, that bandwidth to do that. So that’s kind of how that foundation started. And again, when you’re launching a rocket, 90% of the fuel is on takeoff. So once I got the systems in place, once I got these things down, then that really through that time, then it became easier to to grow and scale that from there. So yeah, I did the writing. I did all that sort of stuff on the side on those days that I wasn’t on the bench. And then with the fitness part, yeah, I’ve been so I’m a lifetime drug free, natural bodybuilder. I know that’s an oxymoron, a pharmacist that’s drug free, but it’s true. I do tested shows. So I’ve competed four times. And I did compete four times as working as a full time community pharmacist at a high volume store. The most scripts that we did on a Monday, when I left was 651 with one pharmacist. I’ve checked in with them since I’ve left and that’s expanded dramatically. So God bless them.

Corrie Sanders  25:59

Mm hmm. And did you have any goals in mind with okay, this is something that I want to take on my own. At some point outside of a community pharmacist, were you running those things in tandem hoping to pay off student loans? Did you have any thought as to what the end goal is? Or were you just in a state of built building and growth and development? And you were just writing that out for however long you felt comfortable? Great question. So I paid off student loans very quickly, I think it was just a few years after graduation. So that was kind of over and done with. And in terms of, you know, what does this look like? Where am I going? I love being a pharmacist, I was really good at it. 20 Because of that, that growth and the impact, 2019 they had the pharmacy awards. So 2019 I was I was honored to be named the most Influential Pharmacist nationwide. So that was that was really cool. And the reason I say that is again, if someone tells you you can’t do something, you’re not cut out for it. Tada. Right. So as soon as, as long as you have that, why, and you put in that work, and you’re consistent, and you just innovate. And that’s really what my I guess you could say my secret sauce is through this process is just being obsessed with how can we do this better? And how can I be resourceful? Oftentimes we get stuck, we just get stopped by saying I don’t have the resources. I don’t know the right people. I don’t have the money. I don’t have enough time. The question isn’t resources. It’s how resourceful can you be? Because again, all you need is all you have, because all you have is within you now. And that’s a core belief. And if you have that belief, that will drive your actions. And when you take those actions by asking the right question, the quality of questions you ask will directly determine the quality of life that you live. Ask a better question, get a better answer. What can I do to be resourceful with this? Simple questions. That’s how we make the shift. So that’s kind of what I what I did was doing that on the side. But to answer your question of, you know, what was my vision for this? I just love doing what I did. I genuinely loved it. I know that sounds crazy. Being in you know, full time community. And I have the same stuff, staffing, all the stuff that everyone talks about on the uplifting Facebook pages. I went through all that stuff. I still loved it. Because of my attitude. Yes, things were burning down all around me. And here’s the thing that I want to and I really want to drive home is that there was always both two things happening at the same time. A loss and a gain. With everything, even my mom passing away, that was a loss. And there was also a gain, someone doing you wrong, there’s a loss and there’s a gain, getting a raise, there’s a gain, and there’s a los. You get to choose which of the two you focus on and what you focus on, you’ll feel because we’re focus goes energy flows. So yes, all the things are happening. And when I say this, I don’t mean be blindly ignorant. I don’t mean be like now what do you call it blindly optimistic. The thing that I always say is, if it’s raining outside, I’m not telling you to go out with your eyes closed, and say it’s sunny, it’s sunny, it’s sunny! It’s raining, you’re wet! Get an umbrella! And while you’re out there, recognize that now you don’t have to water your gardens because it’s raining. So you just saved yourself an hour of time. You don’t have to wash your car and you just got a free car wash and that work you’ve been putting off because you had FOMO fear of missing out on the sunshine. Well guess what? Now you get to do it without FOMO there’s three wins right off the bat. So it’s not about being blindly optimistic. It’s about facing it and choosing to see it as it is not worse than it is choosing to see it better than it is because that’s the role of a leader is see the vision while no one else may be able to and then make it the way you want to see it. That’s really leadership is all about making decisions in the hard times. And I’m not talking about being a leader position, per se, I’m talking about being the leader of your life. CEO of you. Because guess what, you get to choose what you focus on. Because there’s always both something gained and something lost at the same time. And what you feel comes from what you choose to focus on.

Corrie Sanders  30:25

And Adam, that’s so well said with just your perspective on life, your perspective on problem, your perspective on challenges. And then also it sounds like how you’re receiving information, and the lens that you’re receiving information through, or maybe being in tune to the lens of others that might be giving you information and being cognizant of that information as well. So it just says a lot to your personality and your outlook on life. Do you think that that’s something that you’ve always had within you? Or did you use your pharmacy career as a platform to be able to build upon that positivity? So I guess my, my takeaway question here is the pharmacists that might feel like they’re stuck in these negative positions, or these downward spirals or a headspace that they can’t seem to tap out of – how do you advise them to come out of that hole? How do you advise them to change their mindset? Is this a question that can even be simply answered? I don’t know. But you’ve done such a good job of just cultivating your own positive mindset, any advice for our listeners that might feel like they can’t claw their way out at the moment?

Adam Martin  31:30

Beautiful question. And oftentimes, people think that they’re stuck, because there’s something wrong with them, that there’s something missing, that they’re broken, that they need fixed. There’s nothing wrong with you, you’re in conditions. And again, you get to choose. And I’m not saying this from some superior place. I’m saying this from a kid that was bullied most of his life. I’m saying this from a kid who was in an incredibly abusive relationship for two years, which led me to a very deep depression. And that’s actually what led me to Tony Robbins. So I was in a very deep dark depression in my life in 2017. And that’s actually how I got into Tony Robbin’s world. And funnily enough, I have the book right here, Awaken the Giant Within. I read this book, like my life depended on it, because it did. And in this book, it listed the power of focus that’s directed by the questions that you choose to ask. And it is a resource called the Morning Power Questions. And I was so desperate at this time in my life, no joke, I remember this, I would wake up in a state of anxiety, because because here’s what happened. I, I was, I would always wake up in the state of anxiety, to the point where it would be a like a literal panic attack, hard breathing, all this sort of stuff. So in my mind, I linked up that sleep led to anxiety. So for six months, while I was in the middle of prepping for a bodybuilding show, working full time as a pharmacist, running two businesses, I was getting three to four hours of sleep at night, because my brilliant brain came up with this distinction, that if you wake up, you’re in anxiety. So if you don’t sleep, you won’t have to worry about it. So you can imagine how fun that was. I’ll never forget it. Because in the morning, when I would wake up in that anxiety attack, it would take me about two hours to get myself together, not to feel good, to get out of the door. And those questions basically said, where focus goes, energy flows. And that’s directed by a question. So I thought, I’m going to really do this. So I didn’t just stare at the page. I said those questions out loud. What are you grateful for today? What are you happy about? And the caveat I gave is, I would have to pick an answer. And say it out loud for something that was true for me, that happened in the last 24 hours, because it forced me to look and seek and you shall find, ask and it shall be given. So when I went through these seven simple questions in 5-10 minutes, I actually felt better. It was the first time where I felt like I was picking myself up out of this hole of depression. And from reading this book, I still have the highlights the note cards from when I was in this place in my life. I thought if this guy can have this impact from a book, I’ve got to meet him. So 2018 was my comeback year. I went massive action on personal development, went to Tony Robbins conference, Unleash the Power Within. That was when Grant Cardone and one of the guys in sales, had his growth conference. 2018 10x Con, once of that, on and on and on massive action decided to become a professional speaker. And then that next year from all that work is when I became named that most Influential Pharmacist. So you’re in these situations, how are you going to use them? How are you going to use them to grow because you get to choose? Is this the end? Or is this the beginning of something that you’ve never thought possible before? So to the to your question about how do you how do you come back from this? If you’re feeling stuck? Well, what if this isn’t you being pushed down? What is what if this is your opportunity? What if this adversity is an opportunity in disguise? What if this stressing is really a blessing in disguise? What if you can take everything that you thought that you can count out, but it’s actually the exact things that you can count on. Because by going through that depression, by going through all of that crap, I now coach people to overcome it, who might feel stuck, and don’t have the courage, because oftentimes, when we don’t believe in ourselves, sometimes we have to lean on the faith of others in us until we can lean on our own faith, to move forward to continue to pursue, to actually see that maybe we can do this. And that’s really the thing. It’s questions. We have this opportunity, we’re not happy in our job. And we think and we there’s an opportunity to change or maybe go to a YFP conference, or do something like that. And we think, what if I fail, though? What if I look like a fool? What if I show up and everyone laughs at me? What if, what if I’m kidding myself? Well, what if it does work out? What if you do pull it off? What if you’re the smartest person in the room that has something to offer that you didn’t even recognize, I call this being blind to your brilliance. And I know it because I was trapped in it for a very long time. Oftentimes, we discount compliments, because we think that people are just being nice. So here’s a tip that I want to give to your listeners for how to identify something that you may have been blind to. If you hear compliments from people, it’s very easy to say, Oh, they’re just saying that because they’re my family, because they’re my colleagues and this and that. So there’s four categories of people that are in your life, you have your friends, you have your family, you have your colleagues or co workers. And then you have random people that you meet for the first time. So looking at those four groups of people, just literally take a moment. And don’t just think this, physically write it out. Because what you write you invite, and go through each group and say, what are what are compliments that I’ve heard over and over from my family? What are compliments that my friends have told me over and over? What are some some nice words of encouragement that I’ve heard from my colleagues or co-workers? And if I’m out at a party at a social event, a pharmacy conference, and I meet people for the first time, or we’re doing a podcast meeting for the first time, and we give compliments? That sound familiar, right? We can say, wait a minute, there’s a pattern here. All four groups of people who don’t know each other, said the same thing! Maybe it’s true. It’s so simple, but I can’t tell you how freeing and encouraging and enlightening this simple little exercise is to possibly reveal that everything that you’ve been looking for outside of yourself has been within you the whole time, the hero you’ve been looking for has been within. The person you’ve been waiting for you to come save you has been you, because no one is coming to save you. No one’s coming to save you. Jesus saved your soul. But you must take part in your own rescue. And when you do, you can then use that for the platform of a business of a brand of a book of a course and asking these powerful questions. What have you survived? What have you had to build a life raft for? Because if we’re being honest here, right now, you are not where you want to be. And you’re not where you used to be. And that space, you’re in between holds value for someone who is stuck, where you came from, who would die to have the insights, the wisdom, the knowledge that you now have, which leads a lot of people to say, sounds good, Adam, but I don’t have it all figured out. I don’t have my whole life that you know, I’ve got a lot to learn, and I don’t feel ethically qualified to help someone unless I’ve gone through it all. Well, here’s the reality. Look, this is Book of Life that we’re fictitiously talking about. Let’s say that your book of life has 30 chapters. And right now your quote “only” in chapter five, and you think, Oh, I’m not qualified because there’s so many chapters to go. Well, here’s the real talk. You’re on chapter five out of 30. And you’re discounting the things that you can count on, because there are people stuck in chapter one who are too terrified to even consider chapter two. But because you’re in chapter five, you’ve gone through chapter one and chapter two and chapter three and chapter four and chapter five. So you’re actually perfectly positioned because you’re close enough that the person you’re helping can relate to you and they don’t feel far removed. Because if you waited until you were chapter thirty, if you waited until you were perfect, you would actually disqualify people, because they’d see you and say, See, that guy’s perfect, I can’t resonate with him. The thing that you’re trying to make perfect is actually if you got that would disqualify you from connecting to the person that you used to be. So when you think you’re not good enough to help people, you don’t have to have it all figured out. You just have to be 10% ahead of the person you’re looking to help and committed to constant and never ending improvement. So from that perspective, I wonder how many souls you can pour into, I wonder how many people you can bring hope to. I wonder how much impact you can have from the imprint that God put on your life, not for you, but so that you can steward it and give to others, the skills, the abilities, even the trauma that you have. Those weren’t curses! Those were gifts. And they’re not for you, period, they’re for you comma, to steward and develop so that you can help others from your gifts to lead them to theirs. Because if you’re in a dark room, and a light turns on, what are you going to do? You’re going to move towards the light. And the closer you move towards the light, you can see a reflection of the light that’s been within you the whole time, the light you’ve been praying for outside of yourself, it’s been within you the whole time. Because all you have is all you need. An all you need is within you now. So perhaps the place that you’re in right now in life, perhaps you were created for such a time as this, perhaps you were perfectly positioned to help the younger version of yourself. Perhaps you were perfectly positioned to give more than you ever thought possible. Because the secret to living is giving.

Corrie Sanders  42:17

So our listeners, I want everyone to pause that and just rewind it back when you need a boost of confidence. Why you are where you are, what that looks like and what your intention is, and your purpose can be looking forward. Adam, that was so inspirational. And I think I could not have said that in a more beautiful way in terms of people taking the things in their life, whether they’re perceived as positive or negative, and how they can relate to past versions of themselves and develop them into the future person that they were meant to be. So thank you for saying that. And I want everyone to go relisten to that when you really need a boost of confidence.

Adam Martin  42:53

That’s all from the heart so that it’s just it’s all the truth. And I think that’s what resonates, because it’s it’s not made up like when you hear that are like yes, that is true. That is the truth. So what’s stopping us? The only two things that will ever stop you. And here’s another tip for your listeners, the only two things that will ever stop you is fear and anger. And the good news. The reason I’m telling you that is that the antidote to both is the same. It’s gratitude. Now, I’m not just saying pick random crap on grateful to be alive. I’m talking about real stuff. Because when you’re grateful, it’s impossible to be angry. When you’re grateful. It’s impossible to be fearful. And if those are the only two things that mess you up, and the antidote to both is the same. You can become invincible literally by living in a state of gratitude. Now, here’s the trick. It’s not just saying I’m grateful for this, you have to feel it. So I came up with this thing. Back in my time of anxiety that I mentioned. I was like, I’m sick of this. I’ve heard this gratitude stuff over and over. But it sounds like a bunch of phooey. But let me actually try it. So I woke up this morning, like years ago, and I was in my bed and I started to feel this anxiety wash over me. So it was like, Okay, everyone says gratitude. Let me actually try this. And I was like, what if I didn’t try it? What if I experienced it? This is a true story. So I was lying in bed, and I thought what can I be grateful for right now? Well, I knew that it was like cold outside. So I felt my blanket. And I just literally started physically from the spot I was in and I lit I physically felt my blanket. And I thought I’m grateful for the soft blanket. I spoke it, I felt it and I saw evidence that was real. And I was like, Oh, that is soft. I’ve always wanted this really awesome, luxurious bed. And I have it! So I thought I’m grateful for this comfy bed and I rolled around slightly and I felt it. Well, I’ve always wanted a house! And I was in my home. I’m in my dream home. Well I always wanted a master bedroom. So I looked around, and I saw that I saw that I was in this bedroom. And I felt the air on my face. I looked around and recognized I was in my dream home. And I had like, I’m so grateful to be in a quiet neighborhood. And I was just silent and listen to the silence. I call it a gratitude ripple in the now, which stands for grin, G R I N, you start with where you are, and then you ripple outwards from that place. And then it was I’m grateful for being close to an awesome city. I’m grateful for being in Austin close to work, my my family lives, I’m grateful to be in a state. I’m grateful to be in this country and outwards from there. So if you start physically where you are, it’s not just words, it’s physically connecting and experiencing the gratitude that will make you invincible, it’s impossible to be grateful and fearful. It’s impossible to be grateful and angry at the same time. So if you’re grateful first, you can’t lose, because that’s the only two things that will stop you from what you said rewinding and listening to the dose of truth, and really embracing those things. So now we know not only how to get into that, but also what will stop you. So now you’re fully equipped. And here’s one other caveat again, just to be aware of, oftentimes, when we when we talk of fear, there’s lots of different types of fear, fear of success or failure, all this stuff. Well, every human being has two fears. And I’m telling you this, because if you’re listening and you’re a human, you resonate with these. How the mind plays tricks is that you think that oh, this is just me everyone else has it figured out? No. You thought that in pharmacy school too. And you found out quick, everyone else was farther behind the you, let’s be real, right? So the two fears that every human being has, is the fear of not being enough, and the fear of not being lovable. So when you hear that, and you’re like, Oh, he’s reading my mind, it’s because we all have those fears. And when you’re grateful for how far you’ve come, that’ll help with that, if you want to and one of the real one of the slippery slopes to getting into these pits is comparison. You may have heard Comparison is the thief of joy. But it depends how you define comparison. If you compare yourself to other people, yeah. What if instead, you compared yourself to how far you’ve come? What if instead, you compared yourself to what you’ve learned? What if instead you compare it to how much resilience and persistence you’ve sculpted, since you started, that’ll have a quite a different feeling won’t it? When you give yourself that gift, because it’s true, it’s not make believe positive self talk. It’s just reality. Again, all stemming from asking a more powerful question.

Corrie Sanders  47:52

And two observations there. One I will give you credit for it sounds like throughout the duration of your pharmacy career, you were always taking action in some way, shape, or form that aligned with your why. And that is something that we hone in on a lot. I’ve mentioned this numerous times on the Innovator Series of the YFP Podcast is before you make a career transition, think about what is your why because as you alluded to earlier, there’s a million reasons and a million people that are going to tell you that you can’t do what you want to do. But if you’re aligned with your why and your personal reason, and you are strong and steadfast in your mission and your goals, that will keep you moving forward. And that is all that matters. So I want to give credit where credit is due to you too is not only being grateful and having gratitude for where you are and where you stand at each moment, but taking action in that grateful presence. And maybe it’s the gratitude that allows you to move forward as well too. But you have always been taking action so that when you’re in those mental funks, or when you’re in those lows, or how you ever we want to describe that, you have been building a repository of skills that you can fall back on or that you can lean into, to help pivot you into the next chapter. And so I want to give you credit with that and say to the pharmacists that are maybe in in these ruts, take action and take grateful action, like you’re speaking to find something that you enjoy, and start tapping into those areas of your mind or your skill set or brush those off or whatever it is. Because in order to get yourself out of those positions, you ultimately will need to pivot in some way shape or form. If you want to stay in pharmacy, it’s having that skill set and having some kind of polished skill that you can move back on to or that you can progress forward. And so Adam give you a lot of credit again for constantly developing yourself and for taking steps to move yourself forward. And then also just having that mindset of positivity and strength and reflecting on what you’re grateful for. And it sounds like you do a lot of reading and journaling and that is certainly integral to my daily routine now as well. And there’s a lot to be said for the written word, but just two observations from my perspective of not only that mindset, but taking some action behind it. So now I kind of want to flow into the next state of your career, it sounds like so you tapped into speaking, you had all of these wonderful skills that you had been building during your time as a community pharmacist. And I think I listened to it on another podcast where you said you were giving this speech and you were all of a sudden, just in this flow state? Is that when you defined yourself as an entrepreneur, is that when you started seriously, considering stepping back from that traditional pharmacist role? Can you let us into your mind a little bit about that transition from your community pharmacy career to where you are now? 

Corrie Sanders  50:46

Yeah, absolutely. And I’m really glad that you said you put in the work. Because we’re about to go with the story a lot of people get twisted. So I want to make this very clear. Faith is central to everything that I do. And this is I’m just going to start with this. How we define faith is huge. And again, I’m not putting beliefs on anybody. But what I will share with you, is that oftentimes we think that faith is like a quadrant of life. It’s a checkbox, like I went to church, I did this and that check. Faith is actually not meant to be a priority in your life. Let me say that, again, faith is not meant to be a priority in your life. Faith is meant to be central to all priorities in your life. And that’s what leads up to this next chapter. So what you said is important, again, is that you put in the work, because there’s there’s extremes, there’s all work and you know, I’m on my own faith and all this. And then there’s also God’s got it. I’m just gonna sit on the couch and just pray. Neither are correct! Faith without works is dead. One thing that I came up with over the years that I’ll just shamelessly continue to share is yes, Jesus take the wheel. But you’ve got to put your foot on the gas! You’ve got to put the gas in the tank! Let’s go! Right?  So whenever I want to my first National Speakers Association meeting, a friend of mine invited me he’s like, Hey, man, I think you’ll love this. And at that time, I didn’t know what speakers were, I thought I had no clue. So I went to this meeting. And I was blown away. I was blown away, because these were incredibly positive people that genuinely cared for people. And they had all these awesome backgrounds. And they were genuinely encouraging one another. And they were sharing stories. And you could just tell it was genuine. And I was like, wow, this is amazing. There’s no backstabbing, none of that. So I thought, this is a career? You can do this? I had no clue. But I then this is where that “blind to your brilliance” thing came in. Because I was I was talking to these speakers, and they literally would say, first time I met them, you’re a national speaker.  You’ve got a gift, blah, blah, blah. And these people weren’t recruiting me. They had nothing to gain. So I thought, why are they giving me these compliments? And then I thought, Where have I heard this before? And then I went through the tool that I just shared with you, in that moment is where I came up with that tool, true story. And I thought, wait a minute, everyone, my whole life has been saying the same thing. But I was discounting it, because I thought, oh, that’s just my professors being nice. Those are just my colleagues being nice. That’s just my family being nice. That kid at the party when I was going riffing, doing what I did with the confidence thing, he was just drunk, being nice, or whatever it was, right? And I thought all these people said the same thing. Maybe there’s a thing here. And then to what I said earlier, I started having doubts. But who am I? I’m not I don’t have training in this. So it was right around that time when I surrendered my life to Jesus Christ. And that’s where my, that’s where my faith journey really started to take off. And in that moment, when I came back, I remember clear as day I was in my apartment at the time, and I just got to my knees in prayer. And I said, God, I feel like the speaking thing is like a gift, but I have no clue what to do. And I have a job I love I don’t know. What do I do? And that was the first time I audibly heard God’s voice. And he said, Go speak. Crazy stuff. Crazy stuff. So working full time for a corporate retail pharmacy, if y’all know about the scheduling, meaning you don’t get to change your shifts, and if you want to vacation, from where I worked, you had to give a year and a half notice for a week vacation. True story. And if you wanted to shift a few days, oftentimes you had to give months notice, that was often rejected, but I digress. With that, in the at the time, NSA, National Speakers Association, offered the professional speaker certification. This was before COVID I think they’ve taken it away since. But in order to do that you had to give 15 paid talks in a 12 month period to a room of 15 or more people. So try doing that with a full time retail pharmacist schedule that you can’t move. Well, God moves. So I declare that was my one goal that year, I hired a professional speaking coach. And that was the other thing, tying money into it. It was a God situation, but long story short, this woman was brought into my life. And she ended up being one of the most influential speakers still to this day in NSA. When I was at National Convention two years ago, in Nashville, they had Hall of Fame speakers on stage showcased as keynotes and stuff. And I think there were like 12 or 15 of them. 10 of them referenced her by name in credit, and this one was brought in my life. That ain’t an accident. So this woman is brought in my life. And she’s like, Yeah, you you know, I do speaking seminars, you fly out to St. Louis, it’s two days, and it’s seven grand. Didn’t have that, like laying in my back pocket. So I thought about it. And I was like, this is when we step up. And I never, I’ll never forget, I remember recording this this video, because I do Instagram reels and stuff. On my stories just behind the scenes. I remember while going on a walk on the treadmill in the morning in St. Louis telling people, I’m here because I have a calling from God, I know I have the skill and also don’t know, I also know I don’t know what to do with it. But I’m willing to go into debt over it. And I’m not promoting debt, but I’m just saying Money talks, right? And if you really believe in something, and you know, you can make something of it. You got to be willing to put your money where your mouth is. There’s double puns right there. Right. So I did that. And I hired this professional speaker. And that whole year, things lined up, you’d like you wouldn’t believe this one month. And I ended up scheduling 20 talks, because you want to always overshoot because things happen, people cancel. And that did happen a couple times. I ended up becoming a professional in 10 months instead of 12. But but this one month, I’ll never forget, it was so busy with holidays and vacations and all this stuff. There was only one day that I had off. And I found an opportunity to speak. And it was at that day at that time. That doesn’t just happen. So God was in that whole thing. So that was that whole year fast forward. And you know, living life, blah, blah, blah -buy my house true story. Bought my house in COVID 2020. Long story there another God thing, but I’ll fast forward to this. Beginning of 2021, I hear God for the second time. You will not be in this job this time next year. Huh?  God, what’s that mean? Silence And I’m like, oh, I must have misheard, right. So because I’m in a job I love and making good money, I’m making good impact. It’s all good. And I just bought a house, right? So I’m like, Oh, it’s fine. So I just ignored it. Well, as time went on, God started to poke. And he started to poke deeper and starting to poke more frequently. And it started become very apparent that I was called to leave. It didn’t make any sense. To be honest, I was very angry with God. How could you lead me from this huge, amazing impact of being rejected to given 10s of 1000s of people hope all over the world. Now you want me to walk away, whaaat? True story. I know this sounds crazy, but it’s the truth. I went on a walk in the fall, I’m pretty sure was October. And it was raining, pouring down rain and I went in a walk because I had my breaking point like it was clear I had to make a decision. I walked in the rain yelling at the sky. It’s true. I can’t make it up. And I got back and I surrendered. I fell to my knees and said You want me to quit fine. It made no logical sense. I had no plan whatsoever. I didn’t like quit the job at the time. But mentally I surrendered and said okay, I will obey. I will obey. I’ll do this. I don’t know how or what. But I surrender my intention. Not too long after out of the blue. Oh, double pun there! You’ll hear why in a second. I get a text from a dude who I had connected with who went to my alma mater University of Pittsburgh School of Pharmacy. And he had been following my work on Facebook, Instagram with the Fit Pharmacist, and he texted me and he says, Hey, man, I don’t and long. So another caveat a couple years ago, he had a grand opening. It was actually March of 2020 when he opened his pharmacy two weeks before the lockdown. And I thought it was pretty badass for a pharmacist to open an independent pharmacy without insurance. So I went in it just so happened that was my one day of the week off it things have shifted with the work schedule since I originally mentioned. So I thought I’m off that day. I’ll go you know, wish them grand opening. Little did I know that planted a little seed. Because fast forward to this time. He said, Hey Adam, I don’t know if you know if you’re still in the area, but we’re we’re doing really well and we’re expanding. We’re looking to hire on a part time pharmacist. Do you have any recommendations? I was not intending to join at all, but I had a network of pharmacists, and I didn’t want to make some inappropriate recommendations. So I said, let’s meet up. Let me hear what you’re looking for and I’ll see if I know anyone. So we’ll meet up at Panera and he’s tell him you know, saying, well tell me about the Fit Pharmacist, what exactly do you do with like speaking and coaching and stuff? So as I’m telling him my skills with marketing and innovation and all this, he’s leaning in, and he says, I don’t know if you’re looking for a job, but your skills are exactly what we’re looking for. Can’t make this part up. I said, Well, what would that job entail? What’s What’s the job description? Never forget this. Hands me a pen, and says, you write it. Now you tell me a pharmacy job where they tell you to write your job description. What the heck is this? So now I had no intention of doing this. God’s at work. And I say, Well, I love speaking and I love coaching. I know you don’t do speaking stuff. But if I could do like 50% coaching, or I’m sorry, 50. I was in marketing, like I really love marketing, growing innovation. If I could do like 50% marketing, and tie in coaching and then do some bench work as a pharmacist. That’d be cool. Done. Huh?What pharmacists job is that?! So I ended up working part time from this guy. And again, I quit in December of 2021. After just buying a house with a pharmacist mortgage, no clue what’s coming. This is a startup company. There’s no guarantees, working part time, full faith. Full faith. Still to this day. It’s the number one LinkedIn post I’ve ever made was my last day working my 10 year career. It was crazy. And it was crazy faith. So I started this job, and it was incredible. So the reason I said it was a double punch out of the blue is it was Blueberry Pharmacy. If y’all know Kyle McCormack shout out, bro. That is a literallyis utopia, pharmacy. Anything that you can think of with retail pharmacy, that gives you a headache that you hate does not exist. They’re both on the side of the pharmacist and on the side of the patient. No insurance, over 1000 generics and the prices are wild. Like incredible. It doesn’t make any sense. It’s crazy. So I’m hired to do this. So I start that in 2022. Amazing, like phenomenal. One of the most up true story my two favorite pharmacists of all time, is Tim Ulbrich and Kyle McCormack. Their level of character is unmatched. Like I’ve never seen anything like it. And that’s withstood years of watching behind the scenes at their worst all that stuff. Strongest character I’ve ever seen in my life. Those are like I love both those guys to death. So and I would I have told Kyle like you remind me of Tim and I told Tim you remind me Kyle this is like awesome, right? Working with this. And the mission is to help people who don’t have insurance, get medications for cancer, MS. and all kinds of other things. When insurance is charging them $120 a month and we’re getting it sold them for 80 bucks, same exact thing. Same exact manufacturer, all that stuff. Crazy. So I’m joining them to do marketing. So long story short, we 5x Google reviews, I don’t know of any pharmacy that has above a three star on Google reviews, we have 128 five star Google reviews. That don’t happen, go find that somewhere! Don’t exist. There’s nothing like it. And our slogan of Blueberry was “Welcome to Different” because we did things differently. It was incredible, amazing culture. And I could go on and on about it. But that’s what led me into coaching because I was shifting with the Fit Pharmacist, I’m like, I really want to coach, I really want to get inside with people and help them break through what’s stopping them. Get through these limiting beliefs really tap into their God given potential. So they can live life on purpose for a purpose and stop settling. So I got deeper into coaching. And I had a Tony Robbins coach myself at this time. And I was wrestling, I was trying to change the business. What’s the next step? And it hit me like a lightning bolt. I’m going to all these Tony Robbins conferences, I’m using these products. I’m paying for a coach, why don’t I become a coach. And it all made sense. All of it made sense. And so I decided to apply to become a Tony Robbins results coach in the fall. And just fast forward. There’s about a 4% acceptance rate. And this is a three month interview to get in. And this isn’t like you meet with someone and a month later you have another meeting. It is literally a full time job to do this interview. And they do wild stuff like mind blowing and there’s three phases. So you’ve got to get in, you got to pass the interview. You’ve got to do all these background checks in this. You get in and there’s a phase one, if you pass and these are by the way at the top 1% of coaches in the world watching you like a hawk on and off the screen. If you pass, you’re invited to phase two, if you pass, you’re invited to phase three. And then if you pass that you’re invited for the opportunity to become a coach. So that’s what I did. And I was like, I love this. And I was doing full time coaching and part time pharmacy. But there was this calling this was there’s a lot more to this, but I’m gonna fast forward, there was this calling to become more and to be a coach. So I was talking with Kyle and he was expanding. And he’s like, Hey, man, we’re getting busier. I’m like, Yeah, it’s like the marketing is working. It’s like, it’s like we do its work. Right? And he is all the team wasn’t me. It was the team. Like, there’s Ravi, there’s Kyle. There’s all the students, like it’s a team environment. It’s incredible. Doesn’t exist anywhere else. Mind blowing, check it out. BlueberryPharmacy.com. Go there. Right? I digress. But he said, You know, I’m thinking about this, like, Well, man, I really had a great time with coaching. And I actually think that I’m called to do that full time. So he’s looking for me to transition from part time to full time. And I’m basically saying, I don’t I’m going the other way. Yeah. So it was like, well, one of the things that we always taught me as an Eagle Scout is never leave somewhere without making it better than you found it. Never leave somewhere without making it better than you found that so I thought I can’t just leave because they don’t really teach marketing in pharmacy school, right. And it’s such a strong mission. He’s such a great guy, I can’t just leave. So I was like, I need to find a replacement. And thank God, there was a pharmacy student on rotation, phenomenal guy, entrepreneurial spirit. And he was looking to actually sign on with Rite Aid. And both Kyle and I were like, nah, nah, don’t do that. So we’re talking to him. We’re just being honest. Like, you know, tell us what your goals are really understanding, getting to know what he’s about. And so we talked with him, like, Hey, man, I actually would like you to take over like, you’ve got the skills, let me train you all this stuff. So we ended up making the decision. Again, it’s you’re coming out of school going all in on a startup, still, it’s a risky move, but he did it. I tell that point of the story. Because he had a mentor, he had Kyle as his mentor, he had us to support him. And he made that move. He already signed with Rite Aid before he graduated, and then he ended up changing. So I’m going to Blueberry appreciate the opportunity. All this. A month later, Rite Aid goes bankrupt. How about that? How about that? God continues! Right? No, I ended up working my last shift of August of 2023. And I was full time I think it was in May. So now I’m working with 93 clients all over the country. I also am a business results trainer, helping businesses from, hey, I have an idea. I don’t know what to do to hey, we’re making 100 million, we want to turn it into 200 million next year. So I not only train the owner, I also get to train their team. And what training is, is it’s combining coaching and speaking. It’s my playground, it’s awesome. I’m able to have all the So long story short, God guided me through this. God directed me he called me to walk away from a career, everything that I shared. Adam, it’s time to walk away. It’s time to change your identity. Because your identity isn’t linked to a role. It isn’t linked to a job. It’s who you are in Jesus, it’s who you are in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Apart from me, you can do nothing. So that was a real coming to Jesus moment, and laying down everything that I thought I had built. But it was really him the whole time. And really surrendering to that and talk about a faith leap. And here’s the thing that we’re understanding ends is where faith begins. Because that move made no logical sense to anybody. True story. When I posted I’m leaving pharmacy, I had my professors text me to make sure I was okay. I had a professor who’s now a Dean at a Pharmacy reached out to me. And if you’re listening to this, I love you, man. Thank you. Make sure I was okay. Because it made no logical sense. But God does. And then to your point, you did all this work? Yes, faith and work is required. It is a co partnership. And that’s really my mission is life. My mission in life is to comission with Jesus to reconcile relationships and redeem people’s lives. That’s it. That’s why I do what I do. And it’s so incredibly fulfilling. And it’s a blast. We have fun. And when I tell my clients, I say you’re here to get results and you’re guaranteed results every session because we’re not called coaches, you get a result in 30 Minutes or Less guaranteed, and you will get a result and you’re going to have fun because if you’re not having fun, you’re doing it wrong. So if you don’t like to have fun, we got to get you a new coach. So that’s the first call I have with my clients. And if they’re not laughing I know it’s time to go! So it’s fun. It’s a blast. People are changing their lives and being able to witness that being able to be a vessel for God to do that work. It’s absolutely extraordinary and, and the level of faith that this has grown, I’ve gotten to see people bring their lives to Jesus through this, I’ve gotten to see people turn the impossible in the into the possible, which is really what a breakthrough is. A breakthrough is a moment in time when the impossible becomes possible. And you actually are living that, and seeing someone do that the look in their eyes, the moment where they think this can happen, this is possible. That’s why do this all so that people ignite their light within. And when you unapologetically own your fire, you get to spark someone else’s light. And then they can go and do it too. And that’s why I do what I do to keep that moving through.

Corrie Sanders1:10:51

I think it’s beautiful to hear that you didn’t necessarily have an identity crisis. And that’s something that I think about all the time because I am similar to you, Adam, I mean, just about as involved in pharmacy as I can be in the state of Hawaii, and I love being a pharmacist.

Adam Martin  1:11:08

In Hawaii! 

Corrie Sanders  1:11:10

Specifically.

Adam Martin  1:11:12

People probably want to switch with you!

Corrie Sanders  1:11:15

But I also think about all the time, I mean, I’ve been very I’ve taken a lot of risks in the past year. And I’m like, if worse comes to worse, my identity is not tied to this profession as much as I love it. And I love being a part of it. And I think there’s so much that we can do, and there’s a lot of untapped potential in pharmacy. If the world were to collapse on pharmacy, tomorrow, I’m going to be fine, I would figure it out, it’s going to be okay. So I think that that’s always an interesting lens as a pharmacy entrepreneur is are you tied to being a pharmacist, because that almost can become a self limiting belief with potential that you can have on the healthcare community in general, not just the pharmacy community. And I think when you’re on this path of impact and growth, and you’re finding your flow state, the opportunities that present themselves to you are beyond what you could have comprehended and a lot of times they reach into healthcare in general, not just this unique, narrow pharmacy lens, which is obviously something that nobody teaches you in pharmacy school, and that you don’t learn without experience. But I do think about that identity crisis all the time on my own path. So I just wanted to articulate that and to point that out, and to give that to other pharmacy entrepreneurs or to other pharmacists that, you know, don’t ever define yourself as a person to your career, I think that is just such a huge, it’s just a It hurts my character to think about that.

Adam Martin  1:12:41

Brilliant point. And I’m really glad that you highlighted that. And first, I want to acknowledge you because you said you’re taking lots of risks. No risk, no reward. Now, to your point about people tying their identity to pharmacists, this is a very, it’s a nuance, but it’s very important. How you identify how you label, the word pharmacist, how you define that can totally change your life. When you change the way you label things, the things you label change. And what I mean by that is, how do you define pharmacist? Most people in retail, the identity pharmacist is that you’re working full time at one location. So if you were to change, you are threatening your identity. And again, the strongest force in the human personality is the need to stay consistent and how we define ourselves. So if your definition of being a pharmacist is staying full time at a retail establishment, and you have an opportunity to go do a residency, go do a fellowship, go do whatever that threatens your definition of your identity. And you might not understand why you may chalk it up to fear. But really what it is, is you’re protecting your identity because of how you choose to define pharmacists. And most often that wasn’t consciously chosen that was subconsciously adapted or borrowed from someone else. So really think if you are stuck, if you’re thinking of oh, I might want to change or explore other options are go the entrepreneur route, and you and you thought about it. But if you’re honest with yourself, are you still stuck where you’ve been? Or you maybe complacent. And this isn’t coming at you, I’m actually coming with you. If you’re not making any progress, just pause and say, how do I define myself? If I define myself as a pharmacist, critical care, ambulatory care, whatever it is, what’s that mean to me? Because nothing has any meaning except the meaning you choose to give it and when you give it an identity, you protect that to the death, including your passion and fulfillment. So if you’re feeling burned out, maybe it’s not that you’re overworked. Maybe it’s that you’re underwhelmed. 

Corrie Sanders  1:15:00

And to kind of plug a line in the same vein there, too. I know we spoke earlier about the mindset of people in pharmacy right now. I mean, I don’t think it’s a secret. There’s all these positive I’m I’ve got air quotes on for the listeners, these “positive” Facebook communities or we’re seeing a lot on LinkedIn and across the news with Pharmageddon. And these pharmacy walkouts, and a lot happening with pharmacists not necessarily even asking for higher pay, but just asking for safer working conditions. I would love to ask for your insight on the future of pharmacy because you’ve got this lens of having been in a traditional three letter pharmacy setting having been in a very non traditional Blueberry Pharmacy setting where you’re doing something totally different. And now being a pharmacy entrepreneur, where you’re coaching people in both of these settings, and you kind of have your hands in a lot of different pharmacy baskets, so to speak, or you’re able to see pharmacy through a very, very unique lens that I think only comes with experience. So to pharmacists that are potentially in those retail settings,  any advice on what the future of pharmacy looks like, advice for them in general, I will leave the floor open to you with anything that you want to add just based off the current current climate of pharmacy in November of 2023.

Corrie Sanders  1:16:06

Really good question, and I’m going to steal something from my dear friend Joseph McClendon, the third, who says the future is what you dare to make of it and Fortune favors the bold.

Corrie Sanders  1:16:41

I love it a short and sweet and simple answer. We don’t need to dive into the weeds.

Adam Martin  1:16:48

But It’s the truth. Nothing has any meaning except the meaning you choose to give it we can look at all the things that are wrong. And we can also say, is this terrible? Or is this actually an opportunity in disguise, because of injustice goes on for so long,  eventually it’s going to pop and that’s an excellent opportunity to innovate. Let’s let’s use an example. I like this one. The music industry. Y’all remember the 90s when CDs had like 12 songs, and they were like $20. That was such a rip off. It was screwing people! And what happened? Napster. Online music. The industry was destroyed because of their greed. And history tends to repeat itself.

Corrie Sanders  1:17:34

Very well said and a lot of food for thought and very many different ways that you can take that. So I love it will leave our listeners with a little tease and a little bit of introspection with their own beliefs and where they see where they see pharmacies going. But I do really appreciate that comment, Adam. 

Corrie Sanders  1:17:52

So I will kind of round things out here with three questions that I just like to throw on at the end of our podcast, just very brief, meant to be a little bit of a personal testament to your journey, and hopefully bring some inspiration to some of our listeners. So what has been the most memorable aspect of being a pharmacy entrepreneur, any moment that sticks out in your head?

Adam Martin  1:17:52

Absolutely. 

Adam Martin  1:18:18

I think it’s really taking the leap and not looking back. And there’s something that is really cool. When next time you’re driving, if you’re thinking of making the leap, if you’ve had the courage, and like I’m gonna do it, I’m gonna do it. I, I want to Tim’s thing, and I’m in this community and I’m fired up and you go and you hold back, and you pump the brakes. And you’re in this cycle of getting pumped up, but not actually moving forward. Well, the next time you’re in your car, just take a look. Because again, it’s all about being resourceful, and success leaves clues. So if you look forward, you’ll see that the windshield is quite expansive, and it’s looking forward. But you also see your rearview mirror. That’s quite tiny, looking back. Which would you like to focus on?Which way are you going? Don’t look back, you’re not going that way.

Corrie Sanders  1:19:17

For a second, I thought you were gonna say “close your eyes.” And I was like…..next time you’re driving close your eyes! Very well said. Puts puts perspective into true form. So Adam, a piece of advice for someone contemplating a non traditional pharmacy career path? 

Adam Martin  1:19:37

Absolutely. Why do you want to do it? And here’s this is actually a really good question. And something that I see a lot of people doing when they do it and they have regrets, or they get angry or resentful is are you moving towards something? Or are you moving away from it? Oftentimes people make changes preemptively off of emotion and when you make an emotion out of fear or anger, it’s almost always the wrong decision. So looking at human behavior and test me on this, don’t just listen, test me. The only two reasons that humans make any action is to avoid pain and to seek pleasure. Now of the two just asking you, which one do you think is a stronger driving force initially avoiding pain, or seeking pleasure? 

Corrie Sanders  1:20:30

Initially avoiding pain.

Adam Martin  1:20:31

100%. Spot on. So what most people do when they’re making career change, is they’re like, Oh, we’re understaffed and underpaid. This is terrible. So they jump out of the pan and into the fire. So initially, it is very helpful to get leverage on yourself. Because without leverage, nothing lasts. And in order to make that change last long term, you need a also pleasurable future, a compelling future that has emotionally compelling reasons why. So yes, you want to be real with the pain? Why do you want to leave? But you also want a clear, compelling future with emotionally driven reasons why? That’s how you’ll make it to last. So just ask yourself, why do you want to leave? Most people say because it sucks here. It’s another day in hell, whatever. Okay? That’s real. Well, what’s the other alternative? Because make sure that you’re not jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. So be really clear on why you’re looking to make a change and be responsible. If you’re married. If you have kids, and it’s a huge risk, make sure you’ve got money in the bank, make sure you have a contingency plan. And this is something that I train people when they’re starting a brand. And we’re going to scale it down to scale it up. So when you’re when you’re gonna make a brand, and you’re going to get on social media, create content, podcasts, episodes, whatever. Well, right now, when you’re ready to launch, we’re super pumped up, just like when you’re ready to change jobs, you’re super pumped up to do whatever it takes. And you might commit some posting every day, twice a day. Well, what about when you’re not pumped up? What about when you’ve had a really rough day? What about when you lose your best friend. So what I recommend is future pace yourself. So imagine and use the future, use the past. So you’ve already had troubling experiences, it’s already happened. Use those to your advantage. Think back to a time when you were in a rough spot in your life. And so this is the personal brand context of making content. Think back to a time when you were having a really rough spot? How if you were in that spot back then how much energy and mental effort would you be able to commit to posting? So how many posts a week would you make if you were in the toughest spot in your life, and most people say, like once a week, so use that as your baseline, and until you’re consistent for three to six months, then scale up, it’s all about consistency. That’s the key. And as a fitness person, consistency is the best workout. Consistent, and we all want to make these intense changes post 10 times a day, change my job, burn the boats, well, we want to be intense, but we don’t want to be consistent. And consistency is the most intense thing you can do. Because hardly anyone does that craziness. So the thing that is telling you this is prepare. So if you’re looking to make the change, recognize that you’re likely in a very heightened emotional state. So future paced by looking at when you were rough, what was the most stressful financial time that you had in your past? What did you what was what was in jeopardy? Was it your rent? Was it your mortgage? Was it your children’s medical bills, and then use that knowledge because history tends to repeat itself. So use that knowledge to prepare for the storms that not may but will come in the future. So consider not just yourself, but who you’re who’s dependent on you, and set yourself up. Now, again, it’s different for everyone. This is the general 80% you know, the bell curve. This is 80% this is the strategy you want to look at is who’s dependent on you? What are their needs, and calculate what’s your cost of living, and also planned for rainy days, what were some rainy days that you experienced in the last five to 10 years of your life? Imagine if all of those happened over the next month. Because oftentimes when you take this leap, you will be tested. 100% of the time. You say you want something you will be tested, and the world moves for those who are persistent. So plan ahead to make the journey more enjoyable. Because again, if you’re not having fun, you’re doing it wrong.

Corrie Sanders  1:24:46

Yeah, I loved – I love the point that you said about being in a heightened state of emotion. And that’s something that I think a lot of our guests have had in common is that they really sat with that emotion for an extended amount of time. I mean, it was a very calculated risk. To your point, it looks so different for everyone. There’s obviously not a blanket formula. But I love dialing into this is a heightened state of emotion, I need to be aware of it and how do I dial this back to something that’s going to be on a completely different plane and trajectory of emotion that I may not even have experienced yet up to this point in my life. So let’s try to just put our feet in that situation and see how we feel and try to plan for a rainy day, so to speak, or try to plan ahead. I really love that point. And Adam, my last question is, what is I actually think I might be able to answer this for you. But what is your favorite part about being a pharmacy entrepreneur, or in this case, you’re not a pharmacist anymore. So we’ll just dial that back to what is your favorite part about being an entrepreneur?

Adam Martin  1:25:44

 So that’s interesting. I don’t think I consider myself an entrepreneur. And by definition, by all definitions, people like, of course you are, you’re out on your own running your own business, you’re doing all these things. I just consider myself a secret agent for Jesus. That’s it. Because people come to me for all kinds of things. I want to a new career, I’ve helped them do that over and over, I helped you get I’ve 10x people’s income. I’ve done things that would blow your mind, helping them do it, empowering them, I really don’t do anything. I just ask questions. As a coach, I’m literally a professional question asker. That’s all I do. So when it comes to being a professional entrepreneur, a pharmacist entrepreneur, it’s not about me. That’s what I love about it. Because we put all this pressure on ourselves to have it all figured out. We want to have control and certainty of our future. And oftentimes, when we surrender that or even entertaining, the idea of surrender, we think that surrenders giving up and again, how you define things makes a huge thing. Surrendering is one of the most strongest things, or there’s a there’s a good word, clearly I have an English degree, the strongest things you can do. But know that to tie it in it, surrender is one of the most courageous things that you can do, because you’re dying to yourself. And the ways of the kingdom are the opposite the ways of the world, when you die to yourself is when you live. If you want to lead, kneel, if you want to be first, go last. So recognizing that I’m not really I don’t have this plan for this 10 year vision. I’m living on daily bread. And that’s faith. And again, that’s not, you know, not doing anything and expecting money to fall from the sky, which it did and does. But it’s being an active participant in your own rescue, recognizing and being resourceful. These are the gifts I’ve been given, how am I going to steward these responsibly, not for my own gain, but so that I can be a river an avalanche of abundance through which I can pass through and serve to others. It’s not about me, it starts with me. It goes through me I’m required. But it doesn’t end with me. And when you put the focus off yourself, you start to look at how can I give? How can I use this stuff, and give it to other people because again, the secret to living is giving. And then when it’s never about you, you can’t lose. And especially in times when we’re feeling lost or helpless. When you’re feeling helpless, get helpful. Because once you give,it adds this level of gratitude that you can’t even imagine. So my favorite part is and the best way to describe what I do now is I get the honor and privilege to have a front row seat to witnessing miracles. It’s freaking incredible. Like, I literally cry, I’m not kidding, ask my colleagues, I cry two, maybe three days a week, because of the things that I get to witness, the breakthroughs, the marriages that are saved, the all on and on and on. It’s amazing. And having the honor and privilege to be a witness to be a conduit for this is absolutely extraordinary. And we have fun! It’s a blast! So if you’re not having fun, you’re doing it wrong. So if you’re in a job and that doesn’t mean I’m telling you to quit, but say could you be focusing on the wrong thing because you’re influenced by other people in your profession. Maybe you’re hanging out in the wrong Facebook groups. Maybe you need to listen to more YFP. Maybe you need to get more engaged in that community. Maybe you need to, instead of listening to people who are complaining and have a life that you don’t want, maybe you need to connect with people who are living a life through the integrity and character and lifestyle that you actually do want. Because success leaves clues. And I’m gonna give your listeners a big tip. If you want to get success as fast as possible. There’s three simple steps. Number one, proximity,number two, proximity, number three, proximity, whatever you want to attain, get around people playing that level of the game. Because like crabs in a bucket, if you’re in an environment that doesn’t support or encourage your growth, they will always pull you down to their level. So level up and become the smallest person in the room, from the humble perspective to grow and become a part of something. And that’s really intimidating. You might be in that room thinking who am I? I feel out of place. Yes, you’re in the right room. Congratulations! Now be of service. But how can I be of service I have so much to learn? Figure it out. Favorite quote from credit this to Marie Forleo. Everything is figured-out-able.

Adam Martin  01:39

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I can’t credit that one. But it’s the truth. It’s all about innovation. And that was one of the biggest takeaways that I got from University of Pittsburgh School of Pharmacy, our values aligned. leadership, innovation and excellence. Personal excellence is the ultimate rebellion. I learned that from Andy Frisella, creator of 75 Hard, I’ve done Lift Hard, I’m actually finishing my second year of that. Incredible program. It’s free, not not tied to it in any way, but if you want to level up your life, get up on 75 Hard, I did a podcast because I did that while I was a pharmacist highly recommend, but I digress. All kinds of tools, get resourceful. Surround yourself with people who encourage you. That’s the best part of this is, being around people that you want to be around. Because you’re serving at such a high level. I had the honor this past. I was there Saturday through Wednesday. Every year Tony Robbins has the annual coaching meeting. So there were 108 coaches from 29 countries. And these are the most amazing souls you ever met. Because they’re givers. There’s no, there’s friendly competition, but there’s not like backstabbing competition. It’s give give, give without any expectation. They don’t keep tabs, they give with unconditional love. It’s incredible. It’s what we call our chosen family. There’s nothing like it I’ve ever seen or heard of in the world. It is incredible. And they make me want to be better. So get around people that are playing at a level higher than you. And watch what happens. Because proximity is power. So that’s why I’m honored to be a part of this podcast seriously, it’s such an honor, because I’m such an admirer of Tim and you and the team that you have, because it’s such an honorable community of people that want to play and live life at a higher level so that they can create a future for their family that they may have never had. So that they can inspire other people, maybe they’re mentoring, maybe their colleagues that it doesn’t have to be that way. The way that all the loud people are complaining about yes, that’s may be happening. And there’s other stuff too because in every adversity there’s also an opportunity in disguise because again, there’s always both two things happening at the same time. Something that’s gained and something that’s lost and you get to choose which of the two you focus on so choose wisely.

Adam Martin  04:43

Best way is probably at this point. I’m on LinkedIn. Dr. Adam Martin, Also the original on Instagram, all one word The Fit Pharmacists, that’s that’s where I’m most active. But you can also email me at [email protected]

Adam Martin  05:09

All right, let’s go.

Adam Martin  05:45

My pleasure, thank you so much for the time for your kindness. And again, just a reminder, you were all blessed to be a blessing. So go forth, be great and dispense your full potential. 

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

Tim Ulbrich  05:56

Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the your Financial Pharmacist Podcast First Horizon, we’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists and the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% downpayment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers and has no PMI on a 30 year fixed rate mortgage. To learn more about the requirements for First Horizons pharmacist home loan, and to get started with the pre approval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[DISCLAIMER]

Tim Ulbrich  06:41

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the date published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 333: Small Business Owner Tax Savings Checklist


On this episode, sponsored by First Horizon, YFP Director of Tax, Sean Richards CPA, EA, summarizes a tax checklist for pharmacy entrepreneurs and other small business owners.

Episode Summary

Too many of us are caught in the trap of only looking at taxes during tax season. As a small business owner, missing the tax mark can have significant consequences in the form of surprise payments due, missed deductions and credits, and constantly wondering if there is something else you should be doing. So whether you are a seasoned business owner or just starting, on this week’s episode, sponsored by First Horizon, YFP Director of Tax, Sean Richards, CPA, EA walks us through a small business owner tax checklist including eight key areas that demand your attention. He touches on the fundamentals of bookkeeping, qualified deductible expenses, the benefits of financial projections to make estimated payments, the significance of S Corp status, insights on determining your owner’s compensation, and much more.

Key Points From the Episode

  • A warm welcome back to the show to YFP’s Director of Tax and CPA, Sean Richards. 
  • Why record keeping is vital for a smooth tax season. 
  • The separation of church and state when it comes to personal business. 
  • Why you shouldn’t fear registering your business as an LLC. 
  • When to consider working with a professional and what to expect from the relationship. 
  • Understanding the basics of bookkeeping. 
  • Defining deductible expenses and why it’s important to understand this term. 
  • The difference between tax planning and tax preparation.
  • Projections and estimated payments: making sure that you’re setting the right money aside. 
  • How to determine if the S-Corp is the right fit for you.
  • Discussing payroll and how to establish your salary as a business owner. 
  • Diving deeper into Section 179 deductibles.

Episode Highlights

“Working with a professional will not solve any challenges or problems you have with disorganization.” — Tim Ulbrich [0:16:01]

“Having a strong understanding of how your business is doing financially is one of the best things that you can do as a business owner.” — Sean Richards [0:17:44]

“Paying yourself an equitable salary is not only the right thing to do by the eyes of the IRS, but it also really helps you think about where the business going and growing.” — Tim Ulbrich [0:45:48]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.8] TU: Hey everyone, I’m Tim Ulbrick, and I want to express my gratitude for you tuning in this week to the YFP Podcast. Each and every week, we’re dedicated to providing inspiration and support on your journey towards achieving financial freedom. 

On this week’s episode, we have a special guest joining us, that’s YFP’s director of tax and CPA, Sean Richards, here to dive into a crucial topic, a tax checklist for small business owners. Whether you’re a seasoned business owner or just starting out, we’ll explore eight key areas that demand your attention. We’ll touch on the fundamentals of bookkeeping, qualified deductible expenses, the benefits of financial projections for estimated payments, the significance of S-Corp status, insights on determining your owner’s compensation, and much more.

Before we dive into this insightful conversation, let’s take a moment to thank today’s sponsor, First Horizon. Afterward, we’re jumping to my conversation with Sean Richards.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[0:00:53.6] TU: Does saving 20% for a down payment on a home feel like an uphill battle? It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high student loan debt, meeting that saving 20% for a down payment on a home may take years. 

We’ve been on a hunt for a solution for pharmacists that are ready to purchase a home loan with a lower down payment and are happy to have found that option with First Horizon. First Horizon offers a professional home loan option, AKA, doctor or pharmacist home loan, that requires a 3% down payment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time home buyers, has no PMI, and offers a 30-year fixed rate mortgage on home loans up to USD 726,200.

The pharmacist home loan is available in all states except Alaska and Hawaii and can be used to purchase condos as well. However, rates may be higher and a condo review has to be completed. To check out the requirements for First Horizon’s Pharmacist Home Loan, and to start the pre-approval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:04.9] TU: Sean, welcome back to the show.

[0:02:06.5] SR: Thanks. Thanks for having me, yeah. Feels good, we’re through all the extension deadlines, business and individual and now we can hundred percent focus on next year. 

[0:02:14.2] TU: Hard to believe, right? We’re already talking about next tax season. You just had a webinar this week kicking off the beginnings of at least thinking about tax season. I know, many of our listeners, really, this comes to life in January, February, we’re trying to get people to think a little bit earlier, more year-round, and today, we’re focusing on really small business owner tax considerations and what are some things that people will be thinking about, planning about. 

Essentially, a checklist of sorts, and whether people are just getting started with a business or maybe they’ve been at it for a while and they can go back and see, “All right, maybe there’s some holes in the crack in the foundation that they need to go back and fill in.” We really hope that this can be an episode that people will come back and reference into the future as well of something they need to be thinking about as a small business owner as it relates to their taxes.

And Sean, we’re going to talk here and weave in some of our own personal experiences of how these things became obvious that we need to be doing as we’re growing the business but also, Sean, in the work that you’re doing and advising and working with other small business owners as well.

[0:03:15.2] SR: Yeah, there will be anecdotes from real life, with our own accounting of our own businesses and some of the people that we worked with and everything, yeah. There’s a lot in this one, I think it will be a good one to reference back to, I agree.

[0:03:25.9] TU: I know pharmacists like checklists and I know they like to know where we’re going. So, we’re going to cover eight different areas, we’ll go through these one by one and they’re really going to flow into one another, and so I think we’re going to start, maybe a little bit broader, Sean, and then we’ll get more narrow of considerations that folks should be thinking about.

Sean, number one on our list is record keeping. I think that anyone who has been in a business for any time or even if they’ve been thinking about starting, they’re being advised, maybe that’s – some advice have been given is, “Hey, you have to keep records,” But that can get lost, right? You’ve got an idea, you’re running things, it can be busy, tell us about record keeping, why it’s so important, and what people should be thinking about here.

[0:04:02.5] SR: Yeah, like you said, these will kind of flow into each other, and honestly, it’s – you kind of can’t have one of these items without what’s before it, and it all comes back to record keeping, really, at the end of the day. And that makes sense if you’re thinking about taxes and accounting just the way that they are. It’s generally, it’s the nature or say, looking back at something, it’s a historical look. 

So, you’re going to need to have references of the things that you did to be able to do something like that, but there’s just so many things that go into just being able to make decisions about your business when you’re filing taxes at the end of the year, when you’re doing tax planning, which I’ll get into a little bit later about the differences between tax planning and tax preparation. 

It all comes down to having good data, and having good data goes back to having good sourced data and inputs and everything. So just saving down everything that you can, related to the business, and I don’t mean that in the sense of just holding receipts and throwing it in the shoe box and just keeping all of the junk, but just making sure that if you’re doing financial transactions, you’re keeping them in a bank related to your business, you’re running down reports at the end of the month. 

Hopefully, you’re using some kind of ledger system like a QuickBooks or even Excel or something like that but even if not, just being able to say, “Hey, this is the money that I made this year, this is the money I paid this year.” And then even some of the ins and outs that you might not think or something that will directly relate to your taxes or business but might, if you ask your accountant about it, right? 

So, things like loan agreements and any type of employment agreements you have with folks. So, things like that. Just really, anything that you think at any point in time, “Hey, would my accountant ever possibly ask me about this?” or “May this possibly come into play when I’m doing my taxes in the future?” Bear to error on the set of caution, just keep everything. 

That being said, there’s actually some rules in some areas. So, generally speaking, I’d hold on to everything for at least three years. Some states have even longer record retention requirements but generally speaking, hold on to things for at least three years. Just get some cloud storage or a hard drive or something like that so you don’t have to take a physical space and just keep an eye on everything.

[0:06:08.1] TU: Yeah. And we use, at YFP, we use Google Drive for everything. So that becomes our system of – as you mentioned Sean, it’s not just receipts, right? It’s going to be the financial statements, whether someone’s producing those for you or you’re working on that yourself, and it might be a very basic Excel template that you’re starting with and then that will evolve over time. 

But it’s not just the receipts or the financials, it’s also the contracts, right? Things that you’re – you know, W9. I mean, just the – a lot of things that you’re going to be building over time.

[0:06:37.0] SR: Right, and even things that you might not think about. So, like, say you or you have an office space at home that you’re working out of. You can take a deduction for that and there’s a simplified way to do that with a square footage. But there’s also a way you can take actual expenses and generally, you’re going to want to do whatever is the most beneficial.

So, now we’re talking about, okay, mortgage interest and utilities and stuff but even on top of that, depreciations. So now we’re saying, “Hey, how much did you pay for your house 10 years ago?” or something. That might not be something that’s top of mind for folks but if it’s, again, even if it’s tangentially related to the business, there’s a chance you’re going to be able to possibly get a tax savings for it. 

Better to just hold onto it and ask somebody about it, “Hey, can I get a deduction for this? Is it worth me keeping this data, these records here?” And then just have someone tell you, “No, you don’t need that anymore.” And then you can get rid of it.

[0:07:26.2] TU: Yeah, perhaps I should have said this at the beginning, Sean, but I know we’re going to have some people that are listening that maybe have been at this for a while and they’re kind of realizing as we’re going through these eight things like, “Oh, my gosh, like, this is a hot mess” right?

[0:07:35.9] SR: Right.

[0:07:36.6] TU: And that’s normal. You joked about the receipts in the shoe box but there’s a fine line here between, “You can’t predict everything you don’t know yet.” And the system’s going to evolve over time. You don’t want to become paralyzed by all these things but also, you want to be thinking ahead as much as you possibly can, or working with someone that can help you anticipate, that has experience working with others as well.

[0:07:56.6] SR: Exactly.

[0:07:57.4] TU: And I think an important part of that record-keeping, Sean, has been moved to number two on our checklist is this concept of comingling personal and business and really wanting to separate these out and ideally, we’re doing this from jump street, right? So we can have clean records and again, this isn’t always done, whether someone’s anticipating where they’re going to go or maybe they’re confused about how to incorporate or do they need to set up an LLC.

Lots of things to consider here, but talk to us about the importance of separation of church and state when it comes to personal business.

[0:08:29.5] SR: I was going to say the separation of church and state but I wasn’t sure if that was alright. So, I’ve used it before but I held off for a minute. Yeah, I mean, that again, it’s going back to the record-keeping thing, and being able to produce data and produce useful information about your business. So, if you need to say to yourself, “All right, how much money did I make this year or how much did I make, how much did I spend in expenses to my vendors?”

If you have to then go and start pouring through and combing through bank accounts and picking out, “All right, well, this was related to my kid’s school stuff but this was related to the business trip that I went on” and everything, just the notion of even having to do that from the beginning is – it’s just stressful to even think about. There were legal sides to it too. I mean, if you have an LLC and you set up a separate business, it’s always kind of there to keep things separate.

[0:09:15.8] TU: Yeah.

[0:09:16.0] SR: Then it begins to become something where, like you said, you might not know at first, “Hey, I’m starting something out, it’s just a little side project, I’ll use my regular account for now and kind of keep track of things on paper.” Then all of a sudden, things expand and get bigger and hey, maybe you’re incorporating or bringing on partners and stuff, and then you start getting into things, which I won’t really go too deep into because I’ll put the audience to sleep.

But you start talking about your basis in a partnership interest or something like that or your basis as a shareholder in a corporation, and if you’re sharing funds or borrowing things from here and putting it in this pocket and using your personal home equity line of credit to fund the line of business that you’re doing, it just, it muddies the waters too much from the beginning.

So, to any extent, you can keep that stuff separate. That’s the recommendation. That being said, number one is, if you’ve already done some things where, “Hey, I’ve put a couple of expenses on this card” it’s not the end of the world, it’s just being able to identify those things. So, if you can go back now and start to be able to put a report together where you’re chipping away the personal stuff and you have the business stuff ready now or towards the end of the year and not in April or March actually, if we’re talking about business returns.

But the other thing is that you don’t have to necessarily hold yourself to that a million percent. And I know this is offering up not a best practice but there will be times when I have people come to me and say, “Hey, if I go put this big credit card or this big flight on my personal card that I just opened up, I’m going to get myself a huge refund back from my credit or big reward, then I’ll be able to put back in the business” or something like that.

Those things will happen and it makes sense, you have to do it. It just goes back to the record-keeping thing. Let your accountant know or keep track yourself. “Hey, this was a loan from me as a business owner to the business and now, I’m going to actually pay myself back that amount from my business account.” Just keep track of it that way. Don’t completely handcuff yourself but make sure you try to keep things as separate as you possibly can.

[0:11:19.3] TU: Yeah, that’s great stuff. I think too, there’s – you mentioned some of the legal piece, which again, we’re not lawyers but that’s an important consideration of keeping things separate and where the liability protection ends. I think the other thing I see here, Sean, often, is the idea of starting, setting up a business, registering with the state, getting your employer identification number, opening a bank account. 

That seems big and scary, which I think can be intimidating to people that are on the front of it but it’s really not that difficult nor is it that expensive. And so I think, as early as you possibly can, once you’ve got that bank account and the business’s name that’s really going to help you with the record-keeping being separate. The other thing I would just say is from a visibility and a cleanliness as an owner to understanding where your business is at. 

Like, we don’t want to muddy those waters as you talked about, right? So, I want to be able to quickly see, how’s the revenue, how’s the expenses, where are we at? And obviously as you grow, you’re going to look at this period versus another period and what’s the growth or not the growth. What do we need to change?

So, I think really having good insight into what’s the health of the business, the separation helps. And then the other thing I would add, which is a little bit more in the mindset side of things is sometimes when we are just starting, we have some of that resistance and devastation of like, “Well, this is just kind of small and I’m not sure where it’s going to go and so, I’m just going to do it with my personal.” 

Like, believe in yourself, right? Where are we going? And worst-case scenario as we dissolve the business, we shut down the banking account and we move on, but I think really establishing the goals that you have for the business as well.

[0:12:49.4] SR: Right, and we’ll talk about it in a little bit more later but the LLC thing, again, neither of us are lawyers but a lot of people get scared by that because they think, “Oh, it’s a new entity, it’s going to open up this whole separate tax thing.” But most of the time, if you’re a sole proprietorship and you open an LLC, it’s just going to land on your personal tax return like kind of a regular side business anyways. So don’t let that notion of things scare you too much.

[0:13:12.1] TU: All right, number three on our list, Sean. Number three is working with a professional. You’ve alluded to this a couple of different times. Some people, as it gets started, they may work with a professional right away, they may wait, and that could either be an accountant, bookkeeper, both, we’ll talk about bookkeeping basics here in a little bit. 

This was one of the first areas, Sean, that we actually outsourced at YFP, as we were looking at growing the business. We had times where that perspective was very helpful and times where we’re like, maybe not. So, I think this is a challenge where, “You know what? I’m going to hire someone that can really understand my business and advise me.” And I often had this feeling of, “I don’t know what I don’t know”, right? 

So, I’m looking for someone to kind of guide me, rather than just being there when I have questions. So, talk to us about the working with the professional. Maybe the “When”, as well as, what are we looking for in that relationship?

[0:14:01.8] SR: Yeah, and like you mentioned, we’re going to go into bookkeeping basics, but I think having this n your checklist of where you’re in the end of the year, and really any point in the business year is trying to make that determination, “Hey, am I going to do this or not?” You don’t even necessarily have to go down the path of understanding all of the ins and outs of the bookkeeping if you’re going to decide off the bat, “Hey, I’m going to pay somebody to do that for me.” 

Not that you shouldn’t get the basics and stuff, but if you’re going to say, “Hey, I want to outsource this now and have somebody run that whole show”, you don’t necessarily even have to get yourself in the weeds from the beginning. But I think it’s just one of those things that you have to decide, like you were saying, where do you want to be spending your time and your energy and where are your strengths and your weaknesses, right? 

So, if maybe you have a finance background and you say, “I can put a couple of hours towards this and it’s not a big deal, I got a pretty good handle on things and I can run it myself.” That’s perfectly fine but you might be saying to yourself, “Hey, I know a lot of people who just absolutely hate everything to do with numbers” and that’s okay too. If number scare you and you hate numbers, that’s fine but they’re not going to go away. 

So, ignoring them or trying to just say, “Hey, we’ll get there at the end of the year and figure it out then.” I mean, that is one way to do it but it’s certainly not the best way to do it. So, I think it’s just something where you have to really think about where you’re at, what your strengths and weaknesses are, and also what do you want to do when it comes to tax season, right? 

If you’re talking about a sole proprietorship then that’s going to land on your personal return, that’s probably something that you can handle. But if you’re getting into partnerships and corporations, now you’re filing different returns and they’re a little bit more than a regular person’s probably used to with HNR block or whatever. So, that’ might begin to necessitate having a tax professional just sheerly out of expertise. 

So, there’s a lot of different things. I always use the accountant cop-out answer that Tim Baker uses of, “It depends.” But it really does depend. But I think having that decision early on in your process will help plan out the rest of everything else that we’re going to talk about in a minute.

[0:15:57.6] TU: And this is worth saying, and maybe saying again and saying again, which is working with a professional will not solve any challenges or problems you have with disorganization, right?

[0:16:07.7] SR: Correct.

[0:16:08.6] TU: They can advise, they can help, they can – we talked about things like record keeping, but they’re not there from an organization standpoint. I think this is something, again, no judgment, right? People that are just getting started in the business, you’re focusing on the business, you’re growing things, you may not be thinking about organization and records and all that, but at some point, that’s got to become a priority. And if they’re working with someone the first time, that may not be something that is top of mind, so.

[0:16:32.7] SR: Yeah, but a professional though also can, on the flip side and again, it’s not going to be – it’s not going to solve disorganization problems but can definitely help advise with, “Hey, you’ve been struggling keeping track of all these things. Why don’t you get a QuickBooks subscription, we’ll connect all your bank accounts and then I can handle things from there and keep track of things as they come in.” 

And now, all of a sudden, you’re not panicking every month or every year with the thousand transactions. You have a bookkeeper who is going in every week or every month and categorizing things and sending you reports, so. 

[0:17:01.9] TU: Yeah.

[0:17:02.1] SR: Again, it might not solve your problems with a wave of a magic wand but they can definitely get you there.

[0:17:08.7] TU: So, let’s go to number four on our small business owner tax checklist, and Sean, that’s bookkeeping. We’ve danced around this here a couple of times so far but whether or not someone is working with a bookkeeper, there are things they have to be ready for and make sure that they’re tracking. So, talk to us about those items that they have to be ready to report on, whether they’re doing it themselves or whether they’re working with someone that they hire.

[0:17:30.5] SR: Yup, like you said, and like I was just saying before too, even if you have somebody who is doing this for you, reporting on it, and kind of explaining it all to you, you still have to generally be able to understand what they’re talking about, right? I mean, you can only break things down in layman’s terms so much, and having a strong understanding of how your business is doing financially is obviously, one of the best things that you can do as a business owner, I think.

So, if you take a look at – and I’ll talk about the entity types in a little bit – but if you look at the three main, or at least in my mind, tax returns that you’ll have for small businesses typically is a schedule C on your 1040. That’s just your regular kind of sole proprietorship. It can be an LLC, cannot, but just a regular person side gig kind of thing, and then you have a 1065 which is a partnership. 

So that’s the default if you have an LLC and you have more than one person, and then S-Corp, I’m sure a lot of people have heard of that say, 1120-s. Those are the three main forms that you typically see for filing business returns at the end of the year. If you look at the three of those, the main front of the forms, they’re all basically the same thing. You have your revenues, your, “Hey, what were my sales, what was my service income if I had any other kind of income, and what were my expenses?”

And you’ll see that all three of them have generally the same categories for expenses. Like advertising and travel and mortgage interest and things like that. So, it’s pretty similar across the board and you’re going to really have to be able to report on that stuff, no matter what kind of business you run, you’re going to have to know what your revenues are and you’re going to have to know what your expenses are.

Revenues, I’m not really going to spend a whole heck of a lot of time on. I mean, I think people generally kind of have a feel for that, it’s cash in the door. The one thing I would say there is if you’re doing service revenue, it might be a little bit harder to track when you’re actually performing a service and getting paid versus actually selling a good. So, a little bit more keep eye on there but honestly, again, people typically have a good feel for that.

It’s more the expense side that I think things can kind of trip people up on. You typically think, “Hey, whenever I’m spending cash out the door that’s going to be an expense for the business and I can probably deduct it.” And generally, that’s true, but there’s a lot of things that come in that can mix that up a little bit. I mean, property is one thing. I was mentioning before, depreciation, right? 

So, you probably think, “Hey, I’m paying for this office space and I have a mortgage on it. My mortgage, I should be able to write that off, right?” Mortgage interest you can but the mortgage principle, you don’t. You get that back via depreciation but again, that’s something you might not be thinking about or might not really have insight into, or vehicles for example. You can have a billion different ways to write off vehicle expenses. 

Whether you’re taking actual expenses or like a standard mileage rate. It all depends on how much you’re using the vehicle for business purposes, there’s all sorts of depreciation rules and stuff. There’s just a lot when it comes to expenses. So, that’s probably the biggest area on the PNL at least, the profit and loss statement to really have a good handle on when it comes to basic bookkeeping stuff.

[0:20:25.4] TU: Sean, as you’re talking, it’s reminding me of – sorry to interrupt you, it’s reminding me of Schitt’s Creek episode where Johnny Rose – 

[0:20:33.4] SR: Yeah. I already know where this is going.

[0:20:35.0] TU: You can’t just buy things for yourself and deduct them as an expense.

[0:20:39.8] SR: It’s a write-off, it’s just a write-off, exactly.

[0:20:42.1] TU: It’s a write-off, just a write-off.

[0:20:43.4] SR: And hey, a lot of times, and we’ll talk about what’s a deductible business expense. A lot of times, if you’re spending money on a business, it is but you’re correct, you can’t just be like David Rose and just go buy everything.

[0:20:54.3] TU: Oh my gosh.

[0:20:55.7] SR: From the blouse barn. So, that’s the PNL. The balance sheet is kind of – I don’t want to say, it’s the ugly stepchild of the financial statements but it’s the one that people generally have an actually have a pretty good understanding of it without even really knowing what a balance sheet is just because of the nature of two of the biggest components of it. So, your balance sheet is going to be your assets, it’s kind of one-half of the calculation and then the other half is liabilities and equity. 

So, assets are pretty much what you think. If you look up the book definition of an asset, it’s kind of what it is for a business. It’s kind of what it is for a business. It’s basically something that’s expected to generate money for you, it’s a positive sort of resource that you have so cash, receivables, things like that, property, equipment. Again, things that people probably have a pretty good handle on.

“Hey, I have this much cash in the bank, Johnny owes me this much money and I own all these cars” right? Liabilities is the other side, on the other side. So, that’s the opposite of the asset basically. It’s like, “Hey, loans, do I have debt, do I have credit cards, do I have a mortgage? Do I owe my vendors?” Things like that.

So again, people typically have a pretty good handle of that, whether they’re really thinking about it or not, you usually know, “Hey, what are my credit card balances, what’s my line of credit balance?” whatever. Equity is the piece that is sort of – it always just ends up being the plug piece but it’s really important when it comes to taxes. So, if you think about – I was alluding to before, you were in a partnership.

You have a basis in that partnership and again, if you’re not an accountant, you might be thinking like, “What in the world is that?” It’s something that, I don’t want to say it gets overlooked but if you’re not really thinking about it from the beginning and again, getting back to commingling funds and stuff, basis is something that really matters a lot in the tax calculation. But can get muddied very quickly if you don’t have a handle on things. 

And that really comes into play, equity is really where that kind of lands and I’ll caution that, if you look on the balance sheet, you look at equity, that doesn’t mean that that’s your basis or if you have multiple partners and stuff, it doesn’t necessarily equal that. But being able to have a handle on what your equity is, it really is a value of your company if you think about it. It’s your assets minus your liabilities. If everything right now came due and you had to pay off all of your vendors and everything, what do you have left? 

That’s the value for your business. So, like I said, it’s the one that’s overlooked a little bit and it’s not as easy to maintain. Typically you don’t have to report a balance sheet if you have a small business and you’re doing like sole proprietorship or something, but it’s something that if you can get somebody to keep those books for you and be able to have a handle on it.

[0:23:28.2] TU: So, as you mentioned, assets equals liabilities plus equity or we could change the equation around assets minus liabilities equals equity, right?

[0:23:35.6] SR: Again, exactly right.

[0:23:36.6] TU: So, is my high school math still good?

[0:23:38.4] SR: Yes, that would be algebra. Very, very good. 

[0:23:41.2] TU: So, let’s talk more within the bookkeeping basics here. Let’s talk more about the deductible expenses, right? This is probably one of the most common questions that we get you alluded to before that – especially early on the journey, people may have this perception of, “Hey, I can buy anything for the businesses and it’s a deductible expense.” So, define that term just a little bit further and why that’s important, and then some of the most common areas or deductible expenses that small business owners should be thinking about.

[0:24:06.8] SR: Yup. Sure. So, deductibility, it really comes down to the main things. So, is it ordinary and necessary? So, that basically means, if I have a business, is that expense something that actually makes sense in the course of a business? So, if you own a financial education company and you’re buying courses for your employees to take to learn about education and finance and stuff, that’s probably an ordinary expense.

If you’re buying tickets to – I was going to say, the Phillies in the World Series but they’re not really there, I guess. So, if you’re buying tickets to a baseball game or something, that’s probably not an ordinary expense, right? So, sorry for the low blow. I actually was rooting for the Phillies this year, that wasn’t meant to be, it just popped in my head first thing. So, ordinary necessaries, number one. Reasonable, which is in the same kind of vein but similar sort of thing.

So right, if we go back to that example I was just giving in, your employees are purchasing education, financial education courses, right? If those courses cost USD 500, a thousand dollars or something, it’s probably reasonable. If those courses cost USD 250,000 each, that’s starting to be, “Hey, you know, what’s going on there?” In fact, it’s probably not started to be, it’s definitely unreasonable but I think you get what I’m saying.

[0:25:19.3] TU: Yeah. 

[0:25:19.3] SR: And then the third piece is paid during the year or if you’re on the accrual basis incurred during the year. But generally speaking paid but as the case is with everything, there is a lot of exceptions to these rules and with expenses in particular, those exceptions come out quite a bit. So, when we think common deductible expenses, cost of goods sold is going to be the most common or easy to identify if you’re a retail business or you’re selling goods. 

And then the flip side of that, of the analogy I guess is if you have a service business, it’s not as easy to say, “What’s my cost of goods sold?” because you’re not selling a good but being able to determine, “Hey, what are my direct expenses directly related to the services that I’m providing?” So, it’s typically labor, contract labor, things like that. Compensation, so that’s one that is usually is a deductible expense. 

However, it very often is not something that’s a deductible expense if it’s for an owner-employee of whatever this is. So, and you know, I’ll get into a little bit of specifics in a bit with some of these different entity types but if you’re a sole proprietorship and you are paying yourself and it is a little bit contradictory to what I was saying before where you want to be able to kind of keep good books and keep records of everything. 

So, you’re probably saying, “All right, I’m working 40 hours a week on my business. I am paying myself 50 grand a year” whatever it is, that’s a salary expense to me, and then you write that off. But as an owner of a sole proprietorship, that’s not something that’s a deductible expense and that comes into play if you’re S-Corp. Some of those, some of the compensation that you’re getting. 

If it is a salary expense, that will be deductible but then if you’re taking profit distributions, it’s not. So, there is a lot when it comes into compensation. If you’re paying contractors, separate contractors that aren’t yours generally speaking, that will be deductible but more just trying to give the caution flag here of, “Hey, if you are paying anybody particularly yourself, keep an eye on that.” 

[0:27:15.7] TU: That’s really good, Sean. I think that can evolve, right? So, somebody may start as a sole proprietor, they may then have partners or not, they may or may not become an S-Corp. So, this topic of owner’s compensation and a deductible expense is one that may be ongoing. 

[0:27:30.3] SR: Oh, absolutely. It’s something – and we’ll talk about the S-Corp thing in a little bit – but exactly right. And that’s not something that is going to be set in stone and even something like not necessarily related to deductible expenses, but even something like setting aside money for taxes. I mean, you might have a rate in your head that, “Hey, I’m going to put aside 15, 20%” that can change drastically year to year depending on what things are happening with your business or your personal. 

[0:27:52.9] TU: Yeah. 

[0:27:53.3] SR: So just another thing that as with everything else, a lot of these rules and things to keep in mind aren’t necessarily set in stone for any particular point in time. On the subject of compensation, health insurance is another big one. So, that’s one that again, you got to really want to be careful about. I can’t get into all the rules now but the big thing there is really if your spouse is eligible for health insurance through whatever company they work for. 

If it’s unrelated to your small business that usually makes it nondeductible on your side, so just something to keep in mind in there. Again, I won’t go into everything but there is a lot of rules around health insurance. Travel, a lot of rules around that. So, if you’re going on business and you are spending time overnight and the primary purpose is for business, most of those expenses generally speaking will be deductible. 

But if it’s for leisure, probably not and the big one with transportation and travel is commuting to and from your office is never deductible. That’s the big one there that people will say, “Well, what if I work from home sometimes but then I have an office space that I go to?” If that’s a primary office location, probably not going to be a deductible expense, so that’s a big one to keep in mind.

And that’s huge too when you’re thinking about, if I am buying a vehicle and I’m taking these depreciation deductions and stuff, the mileage that you’re commuting to and from your office does not count towards business mileage, so very important to keep in mind. 

[0:29:14.6] TU: You’ve reminded me of that many times, which is good. 

[0:29:17.5] SR: Yeah, yeah, probably in a good way, right? 

[0:29:20.2] TU: Yes, yeah. 

[0:29:20.9] SR: And then you’re rolling your eyes at me kind of way. 

[0:29:22.5] TU: Yeah. 

[0:29:23.2] SR: So, one item I’ll mention as far as the exceptions to the rules I was talking about with being paid during the year is rent. So, I know a lot of people will say, “Oh, perfect. December, I’ll prepay next year’s rent and just be able to take a nice deduction this year for it.” IRS caught onto that one pretty quickly, so rent they actually specifically say, “Hey, if you prepay it, you can only take deductions for the time that it applies to.” 

And then a big one that I mentioned before is the business use of home. So, if you are using a home office space and you’re – it’s dedicated and you’re using that for your business, you usually can’t take a deduction for that and there’s two methods, a simplified, “Hey, what’s my square footage?” and you’re taking five bucks a square foot or you’re taking a percentage of your actual expenses for your home. 

The big thing there though is that I think that I kind of alluded to, it has to be strictly dedicated to that business. So, not like a half office half bedroom kind of situation. It needs to be fully for the business and really – 

[0:30:20.4] TU: Which is important with work-at-home transitions. I’m thinking about where people have bedroom office type of set up, so. 

[0:30:28.0] SR: Yeah and I mean, really, I mean I hit a couple of the big ones there as far as the expenses that are nondeductible that people often think might be. It’s really just; think of the opposite of what I just said, right? So, if you are you’re on and it’s for personal purposes, if you’re driving to and from your office, you’re going to baseball games, entertainment expenses aren’t deductible. 

Federal income tax too, that’s another big one that people think, “Hey, it’s a tax.” Alot of taxes are deductible, property taxes, estate taxes, but the Federal one itself it’s – that would be a circular reference. 

[0:31:00.3] TU: Yes, they were in. 

[0:31:00.8] SR: That they were able to, right? So, if you get that one, then your math’s definitely working nice.

[0:31:05.0] TU: Yeah. Well, I think this is an area and obviously, I’m biased, Sean, we’ve got a team that does this, and your expertise on our team knows how to do small business accounting and bookkeeping and fractional CFO and TAx 4. Obviously, I’m biased there but I think you have to ask yourself as a business owner like this is just a lot to have on your mind, right? 

So, could you learn all this, could you DIY this, could you record keep, could you bookkeep? Like technically the answer is yes. 

[0:31:31.8] SR: Right and it’s possible.

[0:31:33.2] TU: But as you think about your capacity of attention and where you need to be focusing your energy, there is a point where there’s just so many nuances and here we’re really talking more on the side of let’s make sure we’re not calling something deductible that’s nondeductible. I think really the next level is more of the, what can we be doing strategically to optimize our tax situation? And that’s a huge value of having someone in your corner. 

I do want to pause for a moment, I will be remised Sean, if I didn’t explain the Phillies reference to our listeners. 

[0:32:05.6] SR: Okay, all right, that’s fair. 

[0:32:06.8] TU: So, if our listeners don’t know, Sean’s in New Hampshire but he’s a huge Boston sports guy, and just in the past week, Tim Baker’s Phillies were eliminated from the NLCS and I assume as a Red Sox fan, that’s just beaming with joy, right? You’re a Red Sox fan. 

[0:32:23.6] SR: You know, I am a Red Sox fan but honestly, with the Phillies this year, I kind of thought it was a team of destiny sort of thing, I’ll root against a Philadelphia team if they’re going up against the Boston team because I mean it’s the in-law sort of thing. And you know if it’s the 76ers, I don’t like because they’re in conference and stuff but the Phillies, it’s NLAL, I actually was pulling for them. So, I was rooting for them by that one but at the same time, it’s a little bit of win-win. 

[0:32:50.4] TU: But the other thing why Sean is having a good week is I think the listeners know me, I’m a huge Buffalo Bill’s fan, and the New England Patriots miraculously beat the Buffalo Bills this week so.

[0:32:58.8] SR: Yes, which the term miraculous wouldn’t really have made sense for the last 20 or so years but now, it definitely does. So yeah, it’s been a good week but I think I’ll be crashing back down to reality this weekend, so we’ll see. 

[0:33:09.5] TU: Only the Buffalo Bills hand, Bill Belichick a milestone win, so I’m going to leave at that. All right, number five on our list is projections, estimated payments, making sure we’re setting money aside. I’m guessing if we have listeners that have been at this for a while, they’ll probably remember maybe an early part of their journey where it’s like, “Oh, I didn’t think about that” right? 

Didn’t know how to make estimate payments, didn’t think about how much I should set aside, and how I should project that. So, who needs to be making quarterly payments and talk to us about the process of determining that and then setting aside those dollars in planning? 

[0:33:43.8] SR: Yep, so I mean doing a projection, it all kind of comes back to what I was talking about way the beginning of this saying the difference between tax planning and tax preparation. So tax preparation, I actually always use the same analogy, I’ll use it again but I always think of tax planning as being like a film director who can sort of see things as they’re going with the actors and change course and say, “Hey, cut, re-film that, do this over.” 

And then tax preparation is the film editor who gets all the stuff and still plays an important role, works their magic, makes it all look nice. But it’s all stuff that’s already been done and you can’t turn back time and re-film any of those things, right? So, all of the kinds of theme of this entire conversation has been the idea of tax planning and actually being able to project what you think your liability is going to be at the end of the year.

And that’s where you start to get into what you’re just talking about, now we’re not talking about, “Hey, what is and what isn’t deductible” but now it can look at, “Hey, where do we have opportunities to take advantage of tax code and make a purchase and take advantage of accelerated depreciation or change our entity classification or something?” But in order to do that, you need to be able to do a projection. 

In order to be able to do a projection, you need to have books and in order to have books, you have records. So, you see how it all kind of works itself up, right? 

[0:35:00.9] TU: Yeah. 

[0:35:01.4] SR: But yeah, I mean, a projection, I think the biggest thing there, so it all comes down to what your tax classification is. So, if it’s Schedule C, you’re kind of looking at what you expect your profit and loss to be at the end of the year and you’re building that into your 1040 and then similarly, if you’re a chair holder of even an S-Corp or partnership or something, you’re going to get your distributed share of that income on a K1 at the end of the year. 

That’s going to come into your tax return, so it’s a little bit of – most of the time it’s thinking more about the tax on your personal side and less so on the business side. A lot of small businesses actually are passed through entities, where the business itself was not paying the tax, it’s actually the owners or the shareholders. So, when I say tax planning for your business, it actually is really a little bit more tax explaining on the personal side. 

But how does my business play into that and the biggest piece there is that usually small businesses will be subject to self-employment income, number one. And number two is that almost always business income won’t have any withholdings associated. 

[0:36:00.4] TU: Yeah. 

[0:36:00.8] SR: So, that’s when you need to start thinking about, “Do I have to make estimated payments? Should I be setting money aside at the end of the year?” So, there’s ways to do that, I mean again, doing a projection and really kind of you know, projection is kind of what it sounds like, you’re basically building a tax return now just with what you think it’s going to end at the end of the year. 

So doing that is good and then that will get you, “Hey, this is what I think my tax bill is going to be and this is what I think my withholdings are going to be” and everything and if you think you’re going to owe more than a thousand dollars, you should be making estimated payments, that’s the general rule. There’s something called the safe harbor, so the easy calc there, the easiest way to do it and being ultra-conservative as accountants tend to is take last year’s tax liability and multiply it by 110%, 1.1. 

And as long as you pay that in by the end of the year through withholdings and/or estimated payments or some kind of combination, then you won’t have any penalties. You can also do that with this year’s 90% of this year’s tax. But if you can – what I’m getting out with that, that’s not a known number, your last year’s tax liability is on your – 

[0:37:04.6] TU: More conservative, yeah. 

[0:37:05.5] SR: This year’s tax liability, you probably have a good handle on it but it could change, right?

[0:37:09.8] TU: Especially if you’re growing or there – just thinking about variability and this is another example, just a peak behind the curtain, Sean, of, you advising us here at YFP, this is something we’re looking at you know evolving into the future. So, you know we’re big believers in the Profit First methodology. We’ve talked about that before on the show, great book, great resource. 

There is a recommendation there for X percent of all revenue should go into a tax account. But what we found for us is that wasn’t a perfect number, because of just our personal situation as well as some of the tax benefits of being in the great State of Ohio, you know? 

[0:37:09.8] SR: Right. 

[0:37:43.5] TU: And then, so there’s – that’s one example where things are unique, and then we kind of evolve to our own calculation, which I would say is probably closer to maybe the general rule of thumb that’s out there of, “Hey, take 25%, set it aside” and then we realize, “Hey, that’s got some holes because tax situations are different.” You know, how many kids you have, what’s the total household income, all of these variables, right?

So, I think the projection piece along with what you’re suggesting on the safe harbor is so important, right? As you’re planning for the business because you want to find yourself in that situation where you don’t want a bunch of money sitting in an account that as a growing business, if you didn’t have to make that much in tax payments you could have utilize to grow the business. 

There is an opportunity cost there but we also don’t want to be surprised and put a stress on the cash flow of our business that we go to file in April and we’ve got this big tax bill due. 

[0:38:33.9] SR: Exactly, it’s a push-and-pull kind of thing. 

[0:38:35.6] TU: Yeah. 

[0:38:35.9] SR: So, being able to – at any extent that you’re able to nail that down as close as you can, like you’re saying, it’s better that way, right? You don’t want to loan the government any more money than you have to but you also don’t want to end up owing a ton of money that you may or may not have or on top of that, have any penalties where I think is associated with it too, so yeah. 

[0:38:52.8] TU: Number six on our checklist, Sean, relate to the S-Corp status, I would pursue maybe outside of, “Hey Sean, can I deduct this expense?” maybe the second most common question or pretty close to the top is, “Should I be a S-Corp?” It’s one of those things that people just throw out there of, “Hey, there’s tax benefits of being an S-Corp status.” Tell us more about what that means and when people may be asking or should be asking that question. 

[0:39:14.8] SR: Yeah, and I mean again, the theme of the whole thing is that you’re kind of looking at these things and at least at one point in the year, hopefully around now, but actually more ongoing, but at least at one point in the year saying, “What is my tax classification now and is that what it’s going to be next year or does that make the most sense next year?” So, before I even do S-Corp I’ll give the three like I had mentioned earlier in the call. 

The three most common ones that I would think of small businesses as a sole proprietorship, one person that’s what you see on your schedule, see they call it, and if you – and the biggest thing with this is that for all of these different classifications, LLCs can be any one of these. That’s the thing, if people will say, “Oh, I’m an LLC” any one of these, an LLC is a legal entity distinction versus these are tax classifications. 

You can be an LLC and classify in any one of these, as long as you fit the right requirements. So, that’s one thing to keep in mind. Again, people hear that, they think it means something different or, “Hey, my taxes are going to be different.” It doesn’t necessarily mean the case. So, sole proprietorships are the most common. If you file an LLC for a single person, that’s the default. 

The biggest thing there is that, that is subject to self-employment tax, and then again, that does not have – there’s no withholding. So, you’d want to make sure that you’re keeping track of any estimated payments and stuff. Partnerships is the default for an LLC with two plus people. So, if you and your friend or you and your sibling or something go start a business and you start an LLC, the default for that one is a partnership and that actually is a different tax return and everything. 

So that’s where again, it begins to become a little bit more than just, “Hey, I’m starting this little business.” Your share of ownership income from a partnership is subject to self-employment taxes. So, when you get your K1 at the end of the year from your partnership, that is subject to self-employment tax, which basically is just the employer portion of FICA that you don’t have because you don’t have an employer, it’s you. 

S-Corps is the more kind of exciting piece. So that is, you can have any number of owners but that is where you’re actually incorporating your business and you’re basically – it’s being taxed like a corporation now. And the biggest thing with that is that you don’t have the self-employment tax portion for what you get on your K1. So, if you were in a partnership today and you and your partners each got a K1 and reported that income, there’s self-employment tax on it. 

And then you become an S-Corp tomorrow, effectively that same stuff that’s on that K1, that same income is not subject to self-employment tax. Now, you’re probably thinking to yourself, “Wow, that sounds too good to be true.” It’s not that it is, it’s just that there are catches associated with it and the biggest catch is that when you make that jump to S-Corp, you have to be able to pay yourself as an owner a reasonable W2 salary with the FICA withholdings and everything, AKA, self-employment tax on top of any profit distributions that you’re going to be making, and that right there is the deciding point. 

Well, what people will probably say is, “Okay, well, what’s a reasonable salary and when can I make that?” and there comes my cop-out accountant answer of, “It depends” and it really does depend because you can think about a million different things. “All right, hey, I am starting a small business and I am going to be the CEO and I’m a pharmacist who is going to be providing advisory on pharmacy things.” 

Okay, is your salary a CEO salary? Because I’m sure if I Google CEO salary, the average is probably 10 million dollars or something. Is it pharmacist’s salary? Is that, I mean, are you doing mostly pharmacy-related things? Well, you’re probably will also going to be doing some bookkeeping and administrative stuff too, right? So, is it kind of an admin salary? Figuring out what that is, there really is no science to it. 

It is more of an art than a science. You have to be able to say, “Hey, this is a job that I’m doing, you know, these are comparable salaries of people that are making” and you have to be able to pay yourself, “Hey, this is what I feel and I truly believe isn’t a reasonable wage per my industry per the work that I’m doing and everything”, and you need to be able to do that again before you make that jump to S-Corp. 

And in order, once again, to determine if you can do that, you need to be able to say, “Hey, where am I in the books? Where do I expect my profit to be this year? Do I think I’m going to have a ton of profit on my K1 or I’m going to have a lot of self-employment tax? I don’t want to pay that self-employment tax, so now can I switch to S-Corp?” Well, let’s see. Do I have enough room in my profits from last year to cut myself a salary that the IRS will think is reasonable compared to other entrepreneurs that are doing the same sort of thing? 

I don’t know. I mean, I really would have to look at your finances and we’d have to talk about a lot of things. It’s a very, very long conversation but it’s a very important one because it can save you a lot of money in taxes. But it all kind of comes down to – my questions back to you will be, “What’s your expected profit and loss look? What have you been taking as distributions so far?” 

And if you can’t answer those questions, then we can’t even have this conversation. So it’s a lot of it depends but it all once again comes back to being able to have the numbers to even start to have that conversation to begin with. So, if anybody is still awake, I hope that kind of explains that. 

[0:44:27.8] TU: It’s good. 

[0:44:28.1] SR: I’m sure that put quite a few folks to sleep. 

[0:44:30.6] TU: No, it was good because this comes up so much, right? We’ve talked about this internally a lot of what’s the right amount of paying ourselves and how do we determine that and it’s so subjective, right? And number seven on our list was going to be payroll and paying yourself enough. So, you did a nice job of covering on both of those in one. 

[0:44:45.2] SR: Yep, exactly. 

[0:44:46.0] TU: And you know, just for some insights and how we have handled this, not to say this is advice in any way, shape, or form, and I would reference people. There’s a book called, Simple Numbers, Straight Talk, Big Profits! that is written by Greg Crabtree that I think does a nice job of addressing this issue. 

[0:45:01.6] SR: Yes. 

[0:45:02.1] TU: Not just from a, “Hey, the IRS is going to be concerned” if you’re kind of applying like a stockless salary, but also I think what’s important about this is, are you thinking about your salary in the context of what the business is and potentially is worth? So, what I mean by that is let’s say Tim Baker and I decided that at some point we want to wake up and sell our business. 

Well, if somebody buys it, they may not want to operate it necessarily. Maybe they do but if they don’t, they’re going to be asking themselves, “Hey, what does it cost to replace Tim or what does it cost to replace Tim?” And so if that answer is X and we’re paying ourselves a lot less than that – because then you could argue, are we really giving ourselves a true look at the profitability, the actual profitability of the business? 

And I think paying yourself an equitable salary is not only is the right thing to do by the eyes of the IRS but it also really helps you think about where is the business going and growing. Now, there is a balance there, right? If you don’t have to pay yourself USD 200,000, you can save on taxes and argue you’re paying yourself a reasonable salary, then obviously you want to do that. 

So, good resource and reference I think about with that book I mentioned. Sean, number eight on our list, which is our last item on the small business owner checklist, is seeing about some of the big purchases. We talked about deductible expenses but specifically want to dig a little bit deeper around Section 179 deductible expenses. Tell us more there. 

[0:46:26.1] SR: Yeah, that’s so – that’s really when you think about deductible expenses, the IRS basically says, “Hey, nothing is deductible unless we tell you that it is pretty much.” And when they start to incentivize larger purchases it’s because that’s what they want people to invest in. So, Section 179 is effectively the government’s way of saying, “Hey, typically you have these big things like vehicles and other equipment type purchases that you’d have to pay for upfront now but then only be able to take a little bit into depreciation every year.” 

“That’s not fair to small businesses, we want to encourage folks to put money to the business. So, we’re going to let you if you buy things that fit these bills, take that money on the first year.” Which is awesome to be able to do, especially if you have to make these purchases and it makes sense for your business. But the biggest thing by far that I would say and once again, it rolls back into everything is you really want to make sure like, “Hey, do I have to make these purchases at some point now or in the near future or am I just doing this so I can get a deduction this year?” 

Because yeah, it’s great to get a tax deduction but that’s really only a percentage. It’s not a credit, it’s not a dollar-for-dollar savings, it’s really only a percentage of a savings. So, if it’s something that you have to spend, “Hey, I’m going to have to buy a car next year anyway and I have all this profit this year and I can take that depreciation and offset those profits,” cool, but you need to be able to figure that out and if you don’t have good numbers, you can’t do it. 

[0:47:43.5] TU: Yeah. 

[0:47:43.5] SR: And if you look at your numbers and saying, “Hey, I’m going to break even right now and I don’t need a car,” then you probably shouldn’t be going out there and trying to take advantage of the Section 179 file. 

[0:47:51.0] TU: Yeah, great stuff. We’ve covered a lot, Sean, on this and we’re going to come back to these topics in the future on the show but we want to have this one episode that we could point back to and say, “Hey, small business owner” again, whether you’ve been established and you want to go back and look at some of these things or you’re just getting started wanting to build a strong foundation, we wanted this episode to be that resource. 

So, looking forward to building upon this in the future as well. If folks want to learn more about the tax and accounting services that we offer, that Sean and his team offer at YFP Tax, you can go to yfptax.com. We’ll link to that in the show notes as well. You can book a free discovery call to learn more about those services, we’ll learn more about you to determine whether or not there’s a good fit there. 

For business owners, we offer everything from business tax filing, bookkeeping, all the way up to fractional CFO services, payroll, so depending on where you’re at in the journey, it might be, “Hey, we need all of that” or “We just need a portion of that” and we could grow together over time. So, Sean, thanks so much again for your time. 

[0:48:47.3] SR: Thank you, Tim, have a good one. 

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:48:48.9] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists on the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s Pharmacist Home Loan, which requires a 3% down payment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time home buyers, has no PMI on a 30-year fixed rate mortgage. 

To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s Pharmacist Home Loan and to get started with the preapproval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:49:33.4] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information on the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 332: Lan Ho Founder of Fat Miilk


On this episode, sponsored by Pyrls, Lan Ho, PharmD, Founder of Fat Miilk, shares her journey going from pharmacist to full-time entrepreneur featured on Gordon Ramsay’s Food Stars.

Episode Summary

Joining us this week on the YFP Podcast is Lan Ho, PharmD, Founder of Fat Miilk Vietnamese Coffee Company based in Chicago, Illinois. Tune in as we dive into her career journey in pharmacy before she shares why she started Fat Miilk, what she learned after appearing on Gordon Ramsay’s Food Stars, the most important thing she’s learned about herself since starting the business, and what lies ahead for Fat Miilk in the coming years. We discuss every step of Lan’s incredible journey to full-time entrepreneurship which began with an unexpected furlough from a retail pharmacy position in in 2020. We explore the rewards available when you are willing to take a risk, the biggest areas of growth she has experienced along the way, and why she is choosing a clicks-to-bricks approach to building her business.

About Today’s Guest

Lan Ho is a first-generation Vietnamese American who made a bold career change from pharmacist to beverage entrepreneur after being furloughed during the pandemic. She pivoted to pursue her dream and successfully launched Fat Miilk – Chicago’s first Vietnamese CPG coffee company. The brand saw instant global recognition when Bon Appetit listed Fat Miilk on their “Highly Recommend” list. Fat Miilk can be found in publications, including Eater, TimeOut, Thrillest, Roast Magazine, and more. Lan is recognized as a thought leader in consumer branding, customer experience, CPG, and the coffee industry. She was recently a finalist on Gordon Ramsay’s Food Stars on FOX network, where she represented her brand, leadership, and entrepreneurial story. Lan is currently expanding Fat Miilk’s reach through e-commerce and with Chicago’s first Vietnamese coffee bar showcasing a full cultural experience. She aims to inspire more minority representation in mass media, entrepreneurship, and executive roles.

Key Points From the Episode

  • Introducing Lan Ho, PharmD, Founder of Fat Miilk Vietnamese Coffee Company.
  • Her start in pharmacy fuelled by her parent’s goals for her education and career.
  • Why it is so important to embark on self-discovery work before committing to a career.
  • What motivated Lan to start Fat Miilk, the first Vietnamese CPG company in Chicago.
  • Benefits and challenges of entering a saturated industry. 
  • How Fat Miilk is merging two industries together.
  • What it means to protect your energy as an entrepreneur.
  • Lan’s experience on Gordon Ramsay’s Food Stars and what she learned about herself.
  • The rewards of taking up space and being willing to take a risk. 
  • Feedback Lan received from experts on the show. 
  • How the creative agency, Truffl, challenged every branding decision behind Fat Miilk. 
  • How Lan’s 2020 furlough led her to take the plunge into entrepreneurship.
  • The biggest areas of growth and learning while transitioning into entrepreneurship.
  • The clicks and bricks business approach that Lan is adopting for the product. 
  • Engaging customers to make a difference in climate change.

Episode Highlights

“If you hit on that unique proposition, you will stand out and you will win big.” — @iamlanho [0:10:17]

“In entrepreneurship, you have to protect your energy, especially in the beginning.” — @iamlanho [0:14:54]

“Do an audit about what you’re telling people and until you’re at a place to invite their opinions or their feedback into your life, keep it to yourself. Do yourself that favor.” — @iamlanho [0:17:09]

“When you transition from you know, going from a corporate structure into anything on your own, you are the corporate structure. A lot of people don’t know that.” — @iamlanho [0:36:02]

“[Having] their online presence but they also have this in-person on-the-ground brand experience [which is] so necessary for an emerging market.” — @iamlanho [0:40:07]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.8] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrick here, and thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I welcome pharmacist turned entrepreneur, Lan Ho, founder of Fat Miilk Vietnamese Coffee Company that’s based in Chicago, Illinois. We discuss her career journey in pharmacy, why she started Fat Miilk, what she learned after appearing in the finale of Gordon Ramsay’s Food Stars, the most important thing she’s learned about herself since starting the business, and what lies ahead for Fat Miilk in the coming years. 

Let’s hear a brief message from today’s sponsor, Pyrls, and then we’ll jump into my interview with Lan.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[0:00:38.3] JW: This is Justin Woods from the YFP Team with a quick message before the show. If you’re tired of relying on shared passwords or spending hundreds of dollars for drug information, we’ve got great news for you. Today’s podcast sponsor, Pyrls, is changing the game for pharmacy professionals. Pyrls offers top drug summaries, clinical teaching points, a drug interaction checker, calculators, and guideline reviews, all in one user-friendly resource.

They also recently added free weekly quizzes to test your Pharmacotherapy knowledge. Whether you’re on your web browser or accessing the mobile app, Pyrls has got you covered. Visit pyrls.com, that’s P-R-Y-L-S.com, to get access to more than 25 free Pharmacotherapy charts to get you started. Upgrade your drug information resources today with Pyrls, don’t miss out on this game-changing resource.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:33.3] TU: Lan, welcome to the show.

[0:01:34.9] LH: Hi, happy to be here.

[0:01:36.8] TU: Well, it’s an honor to have you. I ran across your entrepreneurial journey after a former student of mine reached out and said, “Hey, you’ve got to check out this pharmacist turned entrepreneur, she’s going to be on the final of Gordon Ramsay’s Food Stars.” Of course, I said, “Heck yeah, pharmacist, entrepreneur, I’ll be following that.”

[0:01:55.1] LH: Yes.

[0:01:55.2] TU: As I learn more about your story, I was fascinated with the work that you’ve been doing, why you’ve gotten into this area of work, and I wanted to introduce it to our community as well. And so, we’re going to spend most of our time on your entrepreneurial journey but let’s start with your career in pharmacy. What drew you into the profession, where did you go to school, and what area of practice did you find yourself in after graduation?

[0:02:18.5] LH: Yeah, absolutely. I’m happy to dive into all of that because it definitely is quite the story. My start in pharmacy, I will say, look, I probably did it for all the wrong reasons, right? And I say that because of multiple things. One, I come from a family, both my parents are Vietnam refugees, right? So, they are always pushing us to go for that really secure and stable career path, and the only thing that they really know is education is the kind of the only way to do it, right? 

And so, you know, me and my siblings were all in healthcare and I think when you’re at a young age and you don’t have a plan B and you didn’t grow up having role models and people to show you that there are other ways to kind of live life and go about your careers, the only thing that we really knew was to go to school and do something that’s secure and stable and get that degree, right?

So, if I had a backup plan, if I kind of knew what I wanted to do, I’m sure I could have you know, really posed a really good argument to my parents and be like, “This is what I want to do instead, I want to start my business, I want to go into the creative arts, I want to – you know, all these things” but I didn’t have a plan B, right? So, I was easily persuaded into doing something that my parents wanted me to do and at the time, that was pharmacy, you know? 

Pharmacy in Vietnam is considered like the gold standard for like one of the best career paths and just lifestyle and so, I really conform to that, made my dad really, really happy. The only pharmacist in the family and you know I was good at school. I’m good at learning, I’m good at teaching myself anything and I excelled in education and in higher education and went there, got my pharmacy degree, and had a great relationship with the district manager at Walgreens and I always thought I was going to do a fellowship but during my rotation…

[0:04:14.2] TU: Interesting.

[0:04:14.6] LH: Yeah. During my rotation with the district manager at Walgreens, we just vibed, it was all about relationships, right? And we just had a really, really good time together, really loved that he offered me a job after I graduated and so, that’s how I ended up in community pharmacy.

[0:04:32.3] TU: I love that story man, and I think it’s so important that we share, we all share our collective stories, right? You know, I think sometimes, going into pharmacy school, which could be true of medicine and I’m sure other health professions, you know sometimes, there’s the internal motivation, sometimes there’s external motivations, sometimes people have external motivations that you know over time, they fall in love with the professional work that they’re doing, other times, they don’t, and there is no one right path, right? 

And I think for everyone that’s on their own journey just as you are, just as I am, so important to do that self-discovery work and really, to find the path, you know, that’s most meaningful and I think as your story highlights so well, you know very rarely is one’s career path a straight line, right? I think sometimes in pharmacy school, I graduated in 2008 and I often felt the pressure and I can tell even graduates today, they feel this pressure that you know, there’s graduation, you take that first job or fellowship or residency, and that you know, from there on, it’s going to be one straight path.

And my career has looked like left turns, right turns, some straightaways, right? But – and there’s a lot more to go and I think as your journey, you know, that is the case as well and just a lot of wisdom there to share and I think as you continue on your entrepreneur journey, perhaps this is just one of many twists and turns that you’re going to take, you know, throughout your career. So, let’s talk about that entrepreneur or business journey. Give us the information on your company Fat Miilk. What is the product and offering and why did you start it?

[0:06:03.0] LH: Yeah. So, Fat Miilk is the first Vietnamese CPG and for people who don’t know, CPG stands for consumer packaged goods, we’re the first Vietnamese CPG coffee company in Chicago, right? And so, a lot of people don’t know is that you know, Vietnam is the number one producer of Robusta in the world. We’re a huge player in the coffee industry and what you’re seeing now is just a wave of first-generation Vietnamese entrepreneurs who are really showcasing that and really trying to put Vietnamese coffee on the map, right?

I think prior to like, the last couple of years, like one or two years ago, you could not walk into any major retailer, Walmart, Whole Foods, whatever, and find Vietnamese Robusta beans on the shelf. It just didn’t exist. And so, I’m really playing in an emerging category right now and we’ll say, prior to launching Fat Miilk, you know I’ve conceptualized this idea forever. You know, Vietnamese coffee in my household was a staple. 

You know, we grew up on that stuff and I just always thought, “You know, why do you have to go to a Vietnamese restaurant? Like a pho restaurant or a bánh mì restaurant to really get Vietnamese coffee?” and sometimes you don’t even know if it’s really Vietnamese coffee, right? It’s just – it’s just the way that it’s you know, presented and so, I saw this opportunity, not just to use Vietnamese coffee as the medium to what I want to present out there but also, like, if you look at what I’ve built with Fat Miilk, you know, you see so much of the story there.

So much of like, the story of the people behind the bean and just the culture, right? And that’s really what I enjoy. I really enjoy creative writing, creative strategy, and I love connecting with the consumer and that’s where I thrive. So, long story short, Fat Miilk is a coffee company, we sell whole-bean coffee. I import it directly from Vietnam and we have some really other exciting product lines that we are pushing forward as well but on top of that, we’re building out our first Chicago flagship storefront at the same time.

[0:08:07.6] TU: Ooh, that’s awesome.

[0:08:09.1] LH: Yeah, a lot going on.

[0:08:10.9] TU: And we’re going to talk about that as we head towards the end kind of, what is the next stage, where do you see the future and I think that’s obviously an important part of that and I hope our listeners will go check out what you’re doing. I’ll link to your website, fatmiilk.com. That has two “I’s” Just so people know as they’re looking that up. Please grab some coffee, you know, you’ve got some other product on there as well.

My wife and I have been working through a five-pound bag over the last few weeks, it’s delicious and I would just highly encourage you know, our listeners to check it out, and I will say, Lan, one of the things that really stood out to me is I did some background research on what you’re building is the strength that you have in storytelling and branding and marketing. You mentioned that creative pursuit, that is obvious in the work that you’re doing. So – 

[0:08:52.5] LH: I appreciate that.

[0:08:52.9] TU: You know, lean into that strength. I know you are but it’s really an incredible one to watch. Now, I’ve got some questions. You know, coffee, beverage, it’s a big industry, right? And for those that watch Shark Tank, you know that the Sharks are quick to object to beverage companies knowing that this is a crowded space. So, I think you answered this in part when you talked about the Vietnamese heritage of this product. But tell us more about what makes this product unique, especially as you think about coffee and beverage being such a big industry.

[0:09:22.7] LH: Yeah. You know, I think when people see such a big industry, they get a little intimidated by it, right? And there’s some major players in the coffee industry but I almost see it as an opportunity, right? Like, I’m not reinventing the wheel here, I’m playing in an industry that already has demand and it’s actually pandemic-proof. Like, if you look at coffee industry, I think it drastically increased during the pandemic, right? 

And so, this is something that people see as a daily necessity, it’s a commodity. I mean, you know, and if you’re able to enter a market that already is going to stay you know, and create something that’s niche but also, unique you can really, really stand out, right? So, when I look at really saturated markets, even in pharmacy, it’s community pharmacies or independent pharmacies, there’s always a way. 

There’s always a way and if you hit on that unique proposition, you will stand out and you will win big, okay? And so, I think we’re playing within the coffee industry at large, which is like a 130-billion-dollar worldwide industry by the way but the Vietnamese coffee category is new in the US, right? Obviously, you know, overseas and in Vietnam and Australia and a lot of the other neighboring countries, Vietnamese coffee is very known and popular. 

But here in the US, I have an opportunity to really be a first mover and I think that if done right and you do it with intentionality, you do it with heart and you do it with community, that to me, you can create a legacy brand out of that and that’s what I intend to do.

[0:11:05.0] TU: Yeah, I love that, right? Because I think that you know, in this example exists in pharmacy, you’re spot on. You know, we tend to speak in generalities, right? You know, independent pharmacy is dead, community pharmacy is changing or evolving but there’s niche markets, right? And you talked about, in your space, you know, obviously, there’s a niche. You know, what’s your differential advantage, what are you bringing that’s different?

Obviously, you know, you are in what you’re building and I think that’s so important, you know, that we kind of get away from some of those generalities, especially speaking about business, and really trying to figure out, “Okay, what’s the problem that we’re trying to solve, what’s the opportunity and how can I bring something that’s different or new or unique or serves a niche that may be otherwise hasn’t been served as it relates to this product?”

[0:11:46.4] LH: Absolutely. I think that’s just business in general, right? Like, you can’t go into a market and just do something that everybody else is doing, right? That’s not good business. You have to look at the market and see what you can bring to the table and what makes you unique and I will say with Fat Miilk when I look at – I will say, right now, being a Vietnamese coffee company is and can be enough, right? Because we are so new to the market. 

But I will say, that’s not what I – that’s not the angle that I’m taking. What I bring with Fat Miilk is a lifestyle, you know? And so, when you look at it, and we’re launching our new website actually on November 15th in this whole Fat Miilk 2.0 situation is, I really been able to capture the last, first, you know, two years of Fat Miilk, analyze what was working and what wasn’t working, and really determine who we are and who we’re not and got down to the roots and realized we need to exist for more reasons than to just make Vietnamese coffee accessible.

And so, when you look at Fat Miilk and you know, our intention to expand, what really makes us different is a whole lifestyle approach to Vietnamese coffee but we’re also merging two industries together. There’s this streetwear, very hype culture that exists in you know, a lot of sneaker and streetwear brands into a food and beverage company, you know? And so, at the core of all of that is this hustle mentality with a lot of humility, right? And that’s how I grew up. 

You know, both of my parents coming here and that’s something that I always wanted to honor, like, I don’t want to be this incredibly luxury brand but I’m going to be something that’s relatable to the times, right? And at the end of the day, me going from pharmacy to this was something that was so intentional about taking a bet on yourself, right? Which then everyone says, and really doing it with humility and doing it with intentionality, with value at its core.

[0:13:42.5] TU: Yeah, I think that’s really interesting, Lan because I think that concept, you know, the hustle mentality, the taking a bet on yourself, I think a lot of pharmacists struggle with that, you know? And part of that goes to – you know, we often talk about it in the show. The golden handcuffs of you got a doctorate degree, you got a six-figure income, you got USD 200,000 of student loans.

[0:14:00.1] LH: Yeah, yeah. 

[0:14:01.0] TU: It’s hard to take that risk, it’s hard to you know, have that hustle mentality when obviously, you’re making that kind of income and I think you know, as you alluded to, that goes back to in part, your upbringing and some of that entrepreneurial experience that you obviously have, and one of the things I want to dive into a little bit deeper, and you mentioned at the top of this episode was some of the family impact on your journey, not only the pharmacy but obviously on entrepreneurship as well and you’ve talked about publicly on Gordon Ramsay’s Food Stars. 

I’ve also seen it referenced in other articles that have featured your story that you didn’t share your business pursuits with your family until after you have launched the business for some time. One article I read said, “Long story short, I started an entire company, pretending to be a full-time pharmacist and later came clean on national television while competing for Gordon Ramsay’s partnership.” Tell us more about that.

[0:14:52.3] LH: Yes. Look, in entrepreneurship, I say this over and over and over again, you have to protect your energy, right? And especially in the beginning. Look, Vietnamese coffee, I went from being a pharmacist to you know, dealing lattes and so for my parents, you know, especially my dad, he didn’t understand that and for me, I was like, “I don’t think you need to understand it right now, you know?”

Like, I think when a lot of people have their opinions and tell you, you know, “Oh, I like that idea, I don’t like that idea, why are you doing this?” It’s exhausting and it’s taxing too. Like just the emotional capacity that you have and the mental capacity, and when you’re starting a business, you need your best self, you know? And there are just so many moments where I would kind of try to bring it up, you know?

And kind of talk about Fat Miilk and how like coffee, there’s this huge opportunity in Vietnamese coffee in the US, blah-blah-blah, like all this stuff and I was just presented with so much resistance, you know? And that to me was something that was so evident, that as I’m building Fat Miilk, I have to build it to a stage where there is no turning back, you know? And so, I was going to do it no matter what because I mean, look, we don’t have to go into it but I was a pretty miserable person when I was a pharmacist.

And I just knew that this was not the career choice for me and that I was going to do something creatively and I was going to do it without my parents and that was a big secret that I kept to myself and a lot of it was for me, more than anything because if I knew I invited that kind of energy into just the building stage of Fat Miilk, I would have had to not only find the strength to keep going but find the strength to resist that feedback, right? 

Like, that negative energy that I just did not need in my life while I was trying to make something happen and it all comes from a good place. I don’t – you know, the people who tell you, who are going to challenge you the most are the people that probably love you the most, right? So, there’s no ill feelings there. It’s just, for me, it was so important, and I always encourage people, watch – do an audit about what you’re telling people and until you’re at a place to invite their opinions or their feedback into your life, keep it to yourself. Do yourself that favor.

[0:17:22.1] TU: Yeah, you have to protect your energy. I love that. Such words of wisdom, you know, that you shared there and so important. I got that vibe, right? When I watched the show and I followed some of your journey, read some articles, I got the vibe that it was coming from a place of love and you know, I think that for the entrepreneurs that are listening, like, they know that well around the need to protect their energy. 

It’s so important and I think you also shared very well that also, you know, when you think about who is around you and some of the energy that you’re surrounding yourself with and you know, there’s a place to be challenged, certainly but especially early in that journey, you know, the momentum that you’re sustaining. You talked about, you know, the hustle mentality, the energy that you’re going to need to sustain that to see through the vision and the idea that you have, so important, especially early on in the journey.

Let’s talk about your experience on Gordon Ramsay’s Food Stars. What an incredible opportunity, and for those that are listening that are not familiar with the show, can you just give us a quick, general premise of what that show is all about?

[0:18:22.0] LH: Yes. So, Gordon Ramsay’s food stars, it is his brand new show, season one. It’s on FOX but essentially, he invited 15 of the most promising food and beverage entrepreneurs to compete for USD 250,000 of his angel investment, yeah.

[0:18:41.2] TU: And the 15, one thing I was wondering and maybe this was mentioned early in the show and I missed it but how did you get selected as one of those 15, was there an audition process or what did that look like?

[0:18:53.3] LH: So, me, personally they reached out to me on Instagram.

[0:18:56.2] TU: Oh, cool.

[0:18:56.8] LH: So, I got recruited to be on the show and there’s a casting director who reached out and said, “Hey, let me know if you’d be interested in this show. I think you’ll be a good fit.” And so, I – you know, for me, I thought it was fake news from the beginning. I like literally went to Gordon Ramsay’s Instagram and saw that he was promoting the show as well. So, that’s when I knew it was legit.

So, there is – you know, there was an application, you know, kind of on the Internet that you could go and apply. I think only one person out of the entire cast actually applied and got the position – or you know, got on the show. Everyone else was recruited.

[0:19:34.1] TU: Okay, that was cool. I was wondering about the process to get there and we’re not going to spill all of what happened, we’re going to make people go watch it if they haven’t watched it. We’ll just say that you were in the final three, we’ll leave it at that. One of the things I’m really curious about is you know, what you see on TV and obviously the thing that you experienced, I know those are two very, very different things.

And you know I’m curious, as you reflect back on that experience, what are one or two things that really stand out to you? Of things that you look back and say, “Wow, because of that experience, I learned this about myself.” What really were some of the takeaways that you had from that show?

[0:20:10.6] LH: Yeah. One of the biggest things that people tell me that I – maybe I didn’t know about me, I mean, I really didn’t know this about myself was how poised I am, right? That is probably – so, I learned a lot about myself based on how other people perceive me and that was like, probably the number one feedback when people would DM me, comment on my Instagram, Facebook, send me messages, emails, everything, they were just like, “We’re such a big fan of you, we felt like you, you know, held it together, you’re very professional, very poised.”

And then, you’re just like, “Wow, I didn’t know that I actually am like that” you know? So, you start to kind of think like, “You know, this is how I present myself and unknowingly, how people see in business, right?” So, that was kind of something that I learned about myself just being on TV and I think, another thing is that you have to take risks, right? I remember when they reached out to me, I had no intention on being on television, and I may have unlocked some other opportunities because of that.

But I remember telling myself, “Look, if you’re going to do this Fat Miilk thing and you’re going to build this to be what, you know, a global company or whatever, the potential you think it is, you have to go out there and put it all on the line.” You have to take that risk, right? And I remember telling myself that this is what it takes when you want to turn that big corner in your career, your life, whatever it is that you’re doing, you got to go out swinging and you have to be able to step up to it when that opportunity comes along and that was not only evident in some of the challenges on the show where I really took up space, right?

[0:21:53.0] TU: Yes.

[0:21:54.3] LH: This was going on the show in it of itself once an example of that and I think sometimes, a lot of entrepreneurs probably – maybe they reach out to so many people seeing if, “Hey, do you want to go on the show, do you want to do this?” And a lot of people are like, “Oh no, me on television? No.” You know?

And so, a lot of people, I think a lot of businesses probably turned that opportunity down, you know? And I think for me, the biggest thing was it does pay off when you not only stay prepared but you are prepared and you’re willing to flex that preparation, you know? Because I had one month to leave my life in Chicago and go to LA to film this thing and that’s exactly what happened and made it all the way to the finale like you said. So, I mean, you know it paid off.

[0:22:41.7] TU: Yeah, and I think just saying yes to that opportunity, you know, I think sometimes we see those opportunities, we’re like, “Oh, it would be so nice, right? If I had that kind of break.” But I think you’re point is a really good one. You have to have a willingness to say yes, you entered into an unknown territory. I’m sure there are fears and anxieties, you know, surrounding that, and just what you shared in the wisdom of taking up space, right? 

I think a lot of entrepreneurs struggle with that, I would say, pharmacists, entrepreneurs, you would struggle more, which is that concept of taking up space not only by being on the show but then, within, you know, the show and the interactions, making sure that you’re taking up the space that you need as well to grow and hopefully, you know, there’s a promotion, there’s other opportunities.

But what I’m also hearing from you which I love is the personal growth that happened to the experience because I firmly believe that often, the ceiling, how high, how far a business can go is directly correlated to the mindset of the leader of that organization, which is you, the founder, and the CEO, and what I’m hearing is this vast expansion of the mindset of what you believe is possible and where you can take this brand and where you could take this business, so I love that. 

I recall Lan, one of the experts and I can’t remember his name, I think he was from maybe Albertsons, Wholefoods, you can point me back in the right direction that I would say he was somewhat critical of the branding and the disconnect that he was seeing in terms of the coffee and the product being in a carton, maybe somewhat around the naming as well. 

So, refresh us on what happened there, and then I’m just curious as you reflect back on that, how did you take that feedback in the moment, and then what have you done or what have you processed since that feedback as well? 

[0:24:25.4] LH: Yeah, absolutely. So, in the finale, you know Gordon Ramsay brought on two experts, both of them very well-versed in retail distribution and CPG, right? And so, one of the biggest feedback that I got was the confusion of our coffee beans being in a milk carton and the name of the company being Fat Miilk. I will say this is nothing I don’t already know, right? In the case that I launched the company in 2020 and we did so many pop-ups. 

I mean, we did pop-ups all over Chicago. I mean, anywhere and everywhere, you know, gyms, Chinese restaurants, parks, everywhere. I mean, and we got all of that feedback, right? And people would say the same things you know? And I definitely took all of that into consideration and a lot of people don’t know that when I was filming for the show, I was already looking to address those concerns and I was also negotiating the lease for our first storefront, right? 

So, I was doing all of that because we all are there and we all have businesses, that’s the whole premise of the show is that we’re all entrepreneurs. We’re all still working on our business, we still have to keep the business afloat while we’re filming for this show in full anxiety mode. I mean, it was like a whole flex from mental, emotional, everything, physical, and I will say you know, those were – it was definitely confirming when he gave me that feedback that this was definitely something that we needed to address. 

And so when I came back from the show, you know I found my dream creative agency who was going to help me rebrand the entire business, right? And I am someone that has incredible intentionality maybe to a detriment sometimes, you know? I want to understand every decision we make with intention, like if someone tells me, “Oh, these are our brand colors” I want to know why.

[0:26:19.5] TU: Yep. 

[0:26:19.8] LH: You know, like it has to have a reason, it has to have some kind of intention as to why you made that decision and it can’t just be because you like it. In my opinion, you’re missing out in a huge opportunity, right? And so a lot of people don’t know that you know, I named the company Fat Miilk because when people think of Vietnamese coffee, the most popular way to consume Vietnamese coffee is with a little bit of sweetened condensed milk, right? 

And so when people say, “Oh, have you had Vietnamese coffee before?” they’re like, “Oh, yeah. I don’t like it, it’s too sweet” or it’s like, “Oh yeah, I do love it. It’s sweet and this and this and that” and I’m like that’s just one version to enjoy Vietnamese coffee but Vietnamese coffee is just beans from Vietnam, right? And it is a very bold nutty chocolatey two times the caffeine content type of bean that when you add a little bit of sweetened condensed milk to it, it just is the perfect balance. 

So, when I named the company Fat Miilk, not only do we intend to do some exciting things with condensed milk but also I get to educate people like, “Look, the reason why it’s called Fat Miilk is because you probably think sweetened condensed milk equates to Vietnamese coffee, right? But let me tell you why it’s not” and so I need to educate consumers and tell a broader story as to why Vietnamese coffee is what it is. 

And so when I came back from the show and hired on Truffl, they’re an amazing creative agency out in LA, I had them challenge me on every single decision I have made up into that point, right? And I said, “Challenge me, why did I name it Fat Miilk? Why is the logo a water buffalo? Why the colors, why the milk carton, why this, why that?” And if I didn’t have a good answer for that now we needed to come up with the solution, you know? 

And so yeah, and so you know, we’re about to launch our Fat Miilk 2.0 is what I call it because I had a huge opportunity and a huge blessing to kind of redirect this whole brand in a way where now it’s viable to scale. It’s really good logistically, you know when it comes to complexity. You know just the packaging itself, it’s ready to grow, and just use all of that feedback over the last couple of years now put the company in a position to really play in the category. 

[0:28:37.8] TU: Yeah, and what I love about that, my takeaway there is your openness and receptiveness to be challenged, right? I think so often especially as a founder, right? It’s your baby, it’s your product and there’s moments where we have to set ego aside, right? And acknowledge and recognize like, “Hey, we’ve done an awesome job of getting the product to this point. I started this literally from an idea to a product that people are willing to pay for.” 

That is an amazing accomplishment, an amazing accomplishment, and then to say, “Okay, next level” you talked about you know, hiring an agency. You obviously have input and feedback and you know, it sounds like there is some consumer research going on there, probably formal and informal, and then to go work with an agency and say, “Hey, challenge me, challenge me on everything that I’ve done” and not in a egotistical, “I’m going to tell you why.” 

But in a, “I’m going to make sure that this is the best product that it can be and if there is a way that we can make this better I’m open, I’m receptive to that” and that is beautiful and that is hard to do, very hard to do. 

[0:29:40.9] LH: It is. It is and let me tell you, when I made the decision everyone was against me. My fractional CFO was against me, my team was totally against it. They were just like, “No Lan, we love it, we love the water buffalo, we love the carton, and look, it was a success in the sense that it got the attention of Gordon Ramsay.” You know, if you watch the finale, our old brand is plastered all over our pop-up and you know, that episode. 

And so like, it is beautiful but when you think about it from a business perspective, it didn’t put us in a position to really play, right? It was complicated, it was confusing, it was so many things, and so I will say you know, everyone was pushing against me to keep it the way that things were and I had to challenge everyone and be like, “Look, I’m making this decision. We need to address these issues because if we expand and we’re in Iowa and Nebraska, are we going to be able to it on the show and have and communicate exactly who we are as a brand and without us being there?” 

“If I can’t say that with our current brand though, we need to make some changes” and there were days, there were days, let me tell you, where I was genuinely depressed. Like I remember when we made the decision to nix our logo, which is a water buffalo, the national animal of Vietnam but it has no relevance to coffee because coffee is not grown in the water, by the way, that was a really dark day for me. 

Because I was like, “What have I been doing this whole time?” Like you know, I feel like I’ve built this brand, people really love it, they resonate with the water buffalo, it kind of looks like the Chicago Bulls, you know with the [inaudible 0:31:24.0] It was this whole thing and people were genuinely sad about it and I was sad about it and I had to stick to my gut and be like, “We’re letting it go.” 

[0:31:33.6] TU: Yeah, yeah. 

[0:31:34.1] LH: It’s not going to be our logo anymore, you know? And so that was really hard for me during the rebrand but I stand by what it looks like now and I know it can go the distance. 

[0:31:44.3] TU: Well, and that’s the key, go the distance, right? I mean, I think what you’re talking about there the vision, you know I think about me as a consumer in Columbus, Ohio going to the coffee shelf like that’s what you’re talking about next level, right? 

[0:31:54.5] LH: Yes. 

[0:31:54.9] TU: You are not talking about your inner circle or people that are you know, attached to the brand and from Jump Street and there’s risk in any one of those decisions obviously but you know, I think that you’re talking about, “Hey, how do I take this to the next level?” and the bigger vision that you can see, so much there to takeaway as you shared that. 

[0:32:14.2] LH: Yes. 

[0:32:15.0] TU: Let me go – I want to share with our listeners and talk about the timeline of what you’ve built because it’s really incredible in a short period of time. 

[0:32:22.1] LH: Thank you. 

[0:32:23.0] TU: So, April 2019, you incorporated, you got the trademark in July 2020, you are furloughed from your pharmacy job. September 2020, just two months after that furlough, you launched Fat Miilk as a brand, December 2020 you secured wholesale partnerships. April 2022, season one of Ramsay, Gordon Ramsay’s food show starts. August 2022, lease signed for the storefront, we’ll talk about that here in a moment. August 2023, you launched Kickstart. 

I mean, we’re talking about a very brief period of time where a lot was happening and if I am following correctly, you were furloughed from your pharmacy job and that really accelerated the growth of your business but the idea had been around prior to that furlough. Am I following that correctly? 

[0:33:06.1] LH: One hundred percent. 

[0:33:07.0] TU: Okay. 

[0:33:07.6] LH: Yes. 

[0:33:08.3] TU: Awesome and you – 

[0:33:08.9] LH: That some people will say – just to quickly plug in there, people say, “How did you launch this company in two months?” It’s like I’ve been conceptualizing, which is the longest part by the way, when you’re thinking about how you’re going to do it, what it’s going to look like, and execute. I’ve been doing that for years, you know? And so when it came to the opportunity to actually put it in motion, that’s how we were able to launch in two months. 

Business, you know what I mean but like if I just thought about this in two months and launched it, I mean, that is – I just want to make that clear that you know, this was something that was brewing for a while. 

[0:33:41.2] TU: Do you think you would have pursued this regardless if the furlough happened? Would it have just been a delayed timeline? I’m curious to hear your reflection back on how much of the furlough was an accelerator or an initiator or you know, if you would have grown in that role or maybe pursued a fellowship industry pathway. Like is there a place where this idea maybe never sees the light of day or it would have just been maybe a little bit more down the road? 

[0:34:08.9] LH: Yeah, Fat Miilk was 100% going to happen. Yes, so 100%. I will say that furlough was the biggest blessing in my life because I told myself, “You know, once I get to this point I’m going to quit and go all in on Fat Miilk” and then that timeline started to get pushed back. “Once I get here, you know? I’m going to do that” and so that furlough was just like I took that as the sign, the universe telling me it is time to go, you know? 

And so, I think when I got furloughed I didn’t have a choice. It was I was furloughed, you know I had no choice but to make my dream come true as opposed to like go and look for another pharmacy job, you know? So that was a big sign for me and I ran with it. I saw that opportunity and I’m like, “This is it. This is the world telling me you need to go and do this” and so when they asked me to come back two months later I said, “No, I already launched it.” I already launched the company, so I’m just going to focus on this now, yeah. 

[0:35:08.1] TU: Lan, I’m curious as you think about all the different aspects involved in starting and growing a business, running a business, right? Marketing, sales, building a team, culture of the company, finances, distribution, supply chain management, when you think about all of the different pieces that you’ve been involved, what has been the area that’s had the biggest learning curve and growth for you over the past few years? 

[0:35:32.8] LH: Yeah, it’s a good question because I think everything has been a learning curve. I will say, just to transition from going from a very regulated structure and lifestyle with not only being a student in higher education for 10 years but then going into pharmacy to then going into entrepreneurship, that has always and still is a very big challenge in my life, right? I think when you transition from you know, going from a corporate structure into anything on your own, you are the corporate structure and a lot of people don’t know that, you know? 

They’re just like, “Wait, what am I supposed to do, you know?” Like you’ve been told, you know, I’ve been told exactly how my seasons look. You know, you have your fall semester, you have your spring semester, you have summer break, you know? And then from there, when you go to work, you have your schedule, you have your shifts, you have your you know, things that you know you can and cannot do, especially a very regulated industry like pharmacy. 

There is no creative flexes in there and so when I went from my entire life of living in structure to then going on and starting my own business, I had to wake up every day and sometimes I didn’t know what to do. It’s like, “Wait, you have so many things you need to do” and you have so many things you need to learn and you don’t actually know where you put your time and energy into what is going to convert for you the most. 

So, it’s so much trial and error in just learning, learning how to prioritize your days and sometimes, you don’t even move the needle an inch, right? Because you’re just like, “Okay, well, I guess I realize you know focusing on this email newsletter or what” you know, trying to cold call a bunch of other brands, it didn’t go anywhere but you have to keep trying and see and I think even until this moment, you know I still have to segment and learn that structure in my day that I thrived in corporate culture to then apply that to my own life. 

And being able to deliver and execute for my team and for the future and grow Fat Miilk and like you said earlier, you are your biggest asset to your company, you know? Like truly how you operate and how you structure your days and if you feel good about that day, you feel productive about how you structured that day, all of that is such a big influence in how your company ends up doing, right? 

And so, I always say like you, the only person that’s getting in the way is me, you know? I feel like I can teach it to myself, I can teach myself supply chain and customs and importing beans and all of these things but if I am not feeling it that day, that ultimately is my business is going to take a hit, you know? It’s like now you have to learn discipline to a T and that is the hardest thing. 

[0:38:24.6] TU: Yeah and I think to give yourself some grace like you know, you gave the example of like you can spend a day making cold calls or working on the newsletter and you’re like, “Hey, I thought that was going to be a high impact priority day where me as the founder and the CEO can move the needle most” and sometimes it’s not or you say, “Okay, that work, that didn’t work. Now, I’m going to bob, now I’m going to shift.” 

But giving yourself some grace in those moments of, “Yeah, maybe I didn’t tangibly move forward the business today but I learned something and I learned that hey, this doesn’t work or I’ve got to iterate” and you know I think sometimes, you know the wins need to be reveled in and enjoyed and celebrated but also there are those days, there are the seasons, there are the weeks where you’re grinding or you’re like, “I don’t even know where to start on the list of things to be done.” 

And like those moments, those seasons, those days are going to happen. They’re just going to happen and you know I think to recognize them and obviously, you’re speaking from experience there, it’s so important to give yourself grace in that season. 

[0:39:20.0] LH: Yes, that’s real. It’s real. 

[0:39:22.9] TU: As you think about the future of Fat Miilk, you’ve mentioned Fat Miilk 2.0 a couple of times, you mentioned at least once or twice getting ready to open a storefront. Tell us about what’s next for Fat Miilk in this 2.0 iteration and where you see the brand going here over the next couple of years. 

[0:39:39.8] LH: Yeah, absolutely. You know, we’re such at a pivotal time in the company right now in the sense that we had an opportunity to really restart the brand and do it with intention. A lot of brands don’t get to do that and not only that but we just had raising credibility from the Gordon Ramsay show, right? And so I’m really adopting this clicks and bricks business model. You know, if you look at businesses like Warby Parker and Outlaw, you know you have – they have their online presence but they also have this in-person on-the-ground brand experience, right? 

And I think that is so necessary for an emerging market and so, you’ll be seeing a lot of us double downing on our digital footprint but also expanding our community outreach, right? Through different storefronts throughout Chicago and expanding to major cities but also what’s really important to me is approaching Fat Miilk with the utmost respect for the farmers and the coffee industry, right? 

And if – you know, I don’t want to bore people with the history here but you know, just due to climate change, the Robusta bean is actually going to be the biggest shift in consumer just brands in general when it comes to coffee and what is going to be readily available, right? And so we have an opportunity to really be a huge player in the impact of climate change and I’m really looking into upcycling every single layer of the coffee bean itself because a lot of people don’t know what’s a cherry. 

So, there is a fruit around it and the seed in the middle is the actual coffee bean and so I’m working with farmers right now to see how we can upcycle parts of the pulp and the skin of the cherry to use in some of our other verticals and that’s been really exciting for me and maybe that’s the compounding part of pharmacy that I really enjoy and being able to take something and make something new out of it. 

So, that’s kind of the approach for Fat Miilk moving forward is having consumer experience in multiple channels but also doing something with the coffee cherry itself and having an impact on just the industry. 

[0:41:55.0] TU: And I think that connects so well to your strength that you talked about, you know, towards the beginning of the episode, which is your strength around the branding, the marketing, the creative side, the storytelling, right? Bringing the cup of coffee to individuals as an experience and I think we’ve come a long way as a consumer but I would argue we have more to go and you are obviously tapping into that. 

That you know, I think people, some people maybe just want a cup of coffee every morning they want to think about it but I think there is a big market of people that are very interested in where is this bean coming from and what is you know, the story of the farm, what is the story of the roaster and you know, how can this really come to be an experience and not just something that’s a functional part of the day that I don’t really think a whole lot about, right? 

[0:42:38.2] LH: Yeah, I absolutely agree, and I think a small part of people, I will say a minority group of people really, really geek out about that stuff but I think there is an opportunity for you know, mass appeal for people to care about that stuff. 

[0:42:52.8] TU: I agree. 

[0:42:53.2] LH: You have to do it, you have to do it with lifestyle. You have to do it where it’s a party and not a protest, right? Because climate change can very easily go into this protest mode, right? Where we’re not doing things right, we’re contributing to it like you know? And kind of playing this blame game but if you can create a brand where people just really resonate with you know, the packaging and what you’re doing.

The vibes you’re giving off, they naturally are inclined to care more about why you exist, and that is the approach that I am taking. I think a lot of brands go so far right or one way or the other about you know, going deep into climate change, going top of really, really using these big words and things that people get really bored about when it comes to the impact of the pulp and you know, just the coffee production and how that can impact just the industry and the you know, the world. 

And so, I think the best people to do it are brands who have a way to engage customers without them actually even knowing that they’re engaged. 

[0:43:58.1] TU: That is fantastic and this has been a real treat. I am so grateful for you coming on the show and sharing your journey and I’m really excited to follow what’s ahead. I have a feeling you’re just getting warmed up here. So, where is the best place that our listeners can go to follow your journey and learn more about what you’re building? 

[0:44:15.1] LH: Yeah, absolutely. We’re pretty active on social media. So, it’s you know Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, all of that is @fatmiilk with two Is, so Fat Miilk. The best place to just get our coffee, experience the brand, we’ll always be fatmiilk.com, and then for people who are in Chicago or visiting Chicago, we are building up our Chicago flagship storefront and that is in uptown at the corner of Broadway and Arga. 

[0:44:42.4] TU: Awesome. Well, thank you so much again and when you decide to expand into Columbus, Ohio you have to let me know, Lan. 

[0:44:48.7] LH: Absolutely. 

[0:44:49.5] TU: Great market here as well but in all seriousness, thank you so much for coming on the show. 

[0:44:53.6] LH: Yes, I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. 

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:44:56.1] JW: Hey, this is Justin again from the YFP Team. Thanks for tuning in to today’s podcast. If you’re a pharmacy professional, you know how crucial it is to have access to reliable drug information. That’s why we’re excited to tell you about Pyrls, today’s podcast sponsor. Gone are the days spending hundreds of dollars for access to drug information. Pyrls offers top drug summaries, clinical teaching points, a drug interaction checker, calculators, and guideline reviews, all in one user-friendly resource.

Whether you prefer accessing information through your web browser, Chrome extension, or mobile app, Pyrls has got you covered. Plus, for a limited time, you can visit pyrls.com to get access to more than 25 free Pharmacotherapy charts to get you started. Upgrade your drug information resources today with Pyrls, visit pyrls.com, that’s P-Y-R-L-S.com, to learn more. Thanks again for listening. 

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:45:50.3] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information on the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 319: Pharmacy Innovators with Dr. Jena Quinn (Perfecting Peds)


Founder & CEO of Perfecting Peds, Dr. Jena Quinn, joins host Dr. Corrie Sanders on this segment of The Pharmacy Innovators.

About Today’s Guest

Jena Quinn, PharmD, BCPPS, is an expert pediatric pharmacist. She developed the vision for Perfecting Peds based on her extensive background in medication management of pediatric population, personal love for children and her desire to optimize more children’s medical profiles.  She has 10 years of safe medication management and direct patient care experience in the pharmacy field with a wide-ranging background in developing, enhancing and managing clinical consulting programs.  Dr. Quinn earned both her Doctoral degrees with high honors from the Ernest Mario school of Pharmacy. She is a nationally Board-Certified Pediatric Pharmacist. She is also a mom to three adorable little girls, Hadley, Peyton and Avery.

Episode Summary

Today’s edition of our Pharmacy Innovators series is filled with vital information for pharmacy entrepreneurs on how to expertly navigate the risks involved with leaving the W2 world behind. In today’s episode, host Dr. Corrie Sanders sits down with the Founder of Perfecting Peds, Dr. Jena Quinn, PharmD, BCPPS, to discuss Jena’s transition from working 9-5 to running her own consulting business that is focused on medication management in complex pediatric patients. Our guest explains the role that her family played in her decision to take up pharmacy, how and why she made the pivot to pediatrics, what inspired her to break free from her W2 job, and how she benefited from being willing to branch into a new industry (cosmetics sales). Dr. Jena then shares why she is not too concerned about AI in pharmacy before diving into how she built her company’s team, how she uses the various social media platforms, why she chooses to always lead with authenticity, and what it was like for her to take on a new business challenge as a pregnant mother of two. This powerful conversation is filled with advice and strategies for those who are contemplating a non-traditional career path, and Dr. Jena explains everything she loves about being a business owner and pharmacy entrepreneur! 

Key Points From the Episode

  • Introducing Dr. Jena Quinn as she explains her family’s role in how she got into pharmacy. 
  • How she made the pivot to pediatrics. 
  • What inspired her to leave her W2 job and what she was expecting from becoming a founder.
  • How she benefitted from being brave and willing to take on a non-pharmacy-related job.
  • Why AI could be both damaging and useful for pharmaceutical dispensary roles.
  • How long Dr. Jena worked solo, and what it looked like when she started building her team. 
  • What her first business contracts looked like compared to how they look today. 
  • Assessing her social media profiles and why she chooses to be authentic across all platforms. 
  • Exploring her mindset when she started a new business venture as a mother of (almost) three. 
  • Dr. Jena’s favorite characteristics of being a business owner. 
  • Her advice for anyone who is contemplating a non-traditional career path. 
  • What she loves most about being a pharmacy entrepreneur.

Episode Highlights

“I just knew at that moment [of helping my epileptic sister] that whatever I did in life, it would be taking care of these children in some capacity, whether it was [as] a physician, a nurse, [or] a pharmacist.” — Dr. Jena Quinn [03:33]

“I started in a multi-level marketing company selling skincare, and it was probably the best thing I’ve ever done, as silly as it sounds.” — Dr. Jena Quinn [07:45]

“Pharmacists are the crappiest salesmen. Because of that, our profession has taken a hit. We have to be a good salesman to show our worth, and push and advocate for our profession to go into a more innovative direction.” — Dr. Jena Quinn [14:48]

“My husband is in IT, in cybersecurity. He’s always in my head, he’s like, ‘Whatever you’re doing, you better not be able to be replaced by AI.’ It’s so true that it is going to drastically affect our profession, but that’s okay.” — Dr. Jena Quinn [15:52]

“Sometimes I don’t even understand what I’m doing until I do it.” — Dr. Jena Quinn [23:05]

“We [pharmacists] have this unique knowledge. I mean, daily, we make these life-changing interventions, and we don’t get any compensation for it. How is that okay? Long story short, it’s just not.” — Dr. Jena Quinn [28:34]

“I just try to keep it real. I have three kids; I understand that everything gets messy.” — Dr. Jena Quinn [31:28]

“Being a business owner, I wake up every day with a fire in my belly; I have control to change patients’ lives.” — Dr. Jena Quinn [38:32]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00] CS: Hi, YFP community. Corrie Sanders here hosts the Pharmacy Innovator segment of the YFP Podcast. Pharmacy Innovators is designed for pharmacists navigating the entrepreneurial journey. In this series, we feature founder stories and strategies that help guide current-inspiring pharmacy entrepreneurs. Today we feature Dr. Jena Quinn, a board-certified Pediatric Pharmacist that established Perfecting Peds, a consulting business focused on medication management in complex pediatric patients. 

In just 18 short months, Jena has expanded her business across multiple healthcare systems and hired support staff that is pioneering pharmacy consulting in the state of New Jersey. We discuss how she financially navigated her transition, the unique timing of establishing her business, and plans for the future of Perfecting Peds. I cannot wait for you all to learn from Dr. Jena Quinn. 

[EPISODE]

[0:00:52] CS: All right. Jena, we will start things off with a really easy question. For those that don’t know you, tell us a little bit about where you went to pharmacy school and how you got into the profession. 

[0:01:03] JQ: Yeah. I went to pharmacy school at Rutgers University, New Jersey. Even at 34, I’m like the biggest baby and I won’t go more than an hour from my parents, so that’s why I landed there. It’s between that and the University of the Sciences in Philly. My parents said, “You’re going with a cheaper school.” So, that was pretty much how I made that decision. But as far as the profession, my grandfather, who has been my lifelong mentor, he was a pharmacist for 60 some years and the later parts of the last 30, he was the director at GlaxoSmithKline, where he patented over 150 drugs.  

I always tease that he makes me look really stupid, because he’s just such a wealth of knowledge. He wrote many organic chemistry books, which was my least favorite subject, but really, he is my inspiration. My mom, to be very honest, is a nurse. She was like, “Nurses work too hard and don’t get paid enough, so you’re going to be a pharmacist and that’s what’s going to happen.” So, once I applied to pharmacy school and got in, and my dad called Rutgers to make sure that I really got in, that’s where I went. 

[0:02:22] CS: I just had to make sure.

[0:02:24] JQ: Yeah. It’s always something. You can always use it later.

[0:02:27] CS: That’s amazing. A little bit of family inspiration. Then just tying it all together with some of your interests, it sounds like. 

[0:02:34] JQ: Yes. Yes. 

[0:02:35] CS: How did you pivot specifically into pediatrics? Was that some postgraduate training? Did you get gauge interest with that on rotations? Where does that stand from? 

[0:02:44] JQ: Yeah. Historically my little sister, she’s nine years younger than me, had epilepsy knock on one. It’s been like nine years, but growing up, I was always the one who took care of her. I’m sure nowadays it’d be like a DCPP call, but some sort of DIFAS call, but my parents, starting at the age of 12, would just leave me with her and she had epilepsy. So, I got really familiar with how to administer Diazepam, what to do during a seizure and all the seizure precautions. 

Then I knew – I always knew I wanted to go into the medical field. So, I dedicated – which is funny, because how life works out. A lot of my patient population is epilepsy, but I just knew at that moment that whatever I did in life, it would be taking care of these children at some capacity, whether it was a physician, a nurse, a pharmacist. She’s really what drove me into the pediatric desire. Then throughout pharmacy school, actually, I just applied to do a couple of research as a student and research opportunities. They were in Peds.

Then during my appies, again, I got partnered with majority pedes. Then I actually, I’m one of those, I would say like older. I got grandfathered in, but I only actually did one year of residency at a local hospital, Thomas Jefferson in Philadelphia, which I know traditionally a lot of pediatric pharmacists do, too. At that time, I was really done with the whole residency thing as far as it’s draining. It was draining me. 

I applied and got into Children’s Hospital, Philadelphia, where I started their pediatric patient care program with a couple of other of my colleagues, like the in-between of a true clinical pharmacist and staff pharmacist, where we were on the floor rotating with the providers and then verifying orders. That I did for three years. Then went to another local hospital and started the same program for another eight. 

[0:05:06] CS: Wow. Well, it sounds like you had a lifetime of experience on top of the year of residency. I’m sure that maybe the second year wasn’t necessarily needed after starting with pediatric care at age 12? 

[0:05:18] JQ: Yes. Yes. That expedited it all, but it was, I was very much sure that that was trying to tell me something. Like I said, a lot of my patients in some way, shape, or form have epilepsy. 

[0:05:32] CS: That’s wonderful. That all ties together, so well. It seems like that was just the path that you were meant to be on from the start. Jena, what I want to pivot to now is I think what we’ll spend a majority of our conversation today is talking about establishing your company, Perfecting Peds, and what that ultimately looks like, and some of the steps that you took when making that career transition. Why don’t we start with what were the motives to leaving a traditional W2 job? What were you striving for? What were you expecting when you started your own company? 

[0:06:04] JQ: Yeah. I mean, motherhood changes everything. I have three little girls, six, three, and one. When my youngest was one years old, I realized – so I worked the first full year of her life at the hospital. I quickly realized that because I started – I shared with you, I started the program for pediatric patient care, I was the first true clinical pharmacist there, full-time at Cooper. What I quickly realized was that between 40 hours and then additional, I would have the residents unpaid, I would be called all the time for urgent situations that the medical residents needed help with and the PICU and the NICU. 

I realized that my quality of life was really taking a hit, especially on my family time, and there was no separation at all. I quickly realized that I didn’t want to be in the hospital fulltime, especially having a little one. I went part time, which then inevitably allowed them to hire a bunch of new people to the hospital. But for me, I was doing a job of a few pharmacists in one. That shone actually a lot of light on that and they’ve hired a lot more people. I was really desperate to be quite honest and to match my income and stay in the luxuries of the pharmacist salary, but I did not like the lifestyle that the full-time job left. 

What I did was I started in a multi-level marketing company selling skincare, and it was probably the best thing I’ve ever done, as silly as it sounds, but it actually was how all my mindset hacks, all my sales lessons that they were all encompassed in. It was called Rodan and Fields, but I learned them all from my mentors there. It was awesome. I had some great opportunities. I would travel to different countries on their dime. I got actually, the computer I’m working on. They were actually, they were very good to me. 

What I realized was that I was really more obsessed with one, building something. Two, just the flexibility of the job, even though I didn’t have like, yeah, skincare is okay. I didn’t have a passion for it, but what I had a passion for was entrepreneurism, setting my own hours. Really, I like the idea of having a team.  I feel like if anything, the people you surround yourself with is who you become. I was like, “You know what?” I – also at the time. I did that for the entire time till my daughter, so for three and a half years. Then I realized like, “Okay, well, what are you passionate about?” Which was pharmacy. 

What I started realizing, even part time, the lifestyle wasn’t for me. I didn’t – I was missing things. For example, last week, I was able to go to two things in the middle of the day, to be at my daughter’s school for just one was a race and the other one was field day. I was able to participate and be a volunteer. I realized that I was working a majority of weekends and then a day or two during the week. With the weekends, I started missing my daughter’s soccer practices. I was like – 

[0:09:34] CS: Sure.

[0:09:34] JQ: I was like, “This is not happening.” Again, I was – I started transparently, to be transparent, I started looking for other jobs. In that process, I realized that there wasn’t any jobs for pediatric pharmacists outside of the hospital. If they were, they were the really niche, like maybe a rare disease in medical science leaves them, but it wasn’t like – there wasn’t a robust amount of opportunities. I felt like the only way I was going to leave the hospital is if I went into the geriatric or adult population and that literally killed me. I love them, they’re just – my hearts are children. So, yeah. I was like, “They smell bad, I can’t do this.” 

I started looking for other jobs. I actually, got offered a job for a geriatric long-term care facility position. That got my wheels spinning, because I was like, “Wait, you need to have long-term cares.” Like acute cares – all these medical days in the area. And I started looking around and asking questions to providers that work there. I’m like, “Who’s looking at these kids? These kids are the sickest kids of the sickest. They have multiple medications.” The answer was that nobody was looking at them clinically. It was the politically correct answer. 

I went door-to-door, my salesman mentality, and was just like, “Hey, you’re already paying the pharmacist.” I’m sure you know this. If you’re a consultant pharmacist too, they’re paying pharmacists to do this. I don’t want to put down other pharmacists, but we have this unique training of residency. We’re all board-certified pharmacists that are uniquely trained in peace. It’s very different than adults, right? I couldn’t end geriatrics. I couldn’t turn around and take care of an adult patient. I don’t even know their disease state. 

I just said, “Whatever you’re paying them, pay me and my team and we’ll take care of them and we’ll offer them a bunch of unique services on top of the compliance work that they’re already doing.” That’s honestly how it started. I did the prep work and all this sales pitch over six months, until I started getting some contracts. Because I knew I couldn’t take that much of a financial cut. Then once I started getting contracts, that’s when I jumped full-time into this. 

[0:12:08] CS: Jena, so many things that you said there that I want to highlight for the listeners that I think are really important. The first one is that you weren’t afraid to take a non-pharmacy related job – 

[0:12:19] JQ: No.

[0:12:19] CS: Because it wasn’t worth sacrificing your mental health in the place that you were in. I think a lot of pharmacists can relate to the quality-of-life issues that you spoke of and the work life balance, especially when you’re in management positions. You really do start doing the work of multiple pharmacists many times. I think so highly of you for taking that job and just being not afraid to say, “I’m not going to do something pharmacy related right now.” That’s how confident you felt about yourself and how much you respected yourself. Two, it is great almost that you stepped into a sales job, because many people don’t realize that sales is a lifeblood of business when you are first starting off. If you can’t sell your services, it completely hinders the product or the service that you can provide. 

[0:13:03] JQ: Yeah. 

[0:13:04] CS: Probably an amazing stepping stone to be where you are today and to have that mentality, like you said, to be able to sell what you want and be able to articulate that to other people. 

[0:13:14] JQ: Yeah. I think, too, I’ve gotten such a habit. Social media is such a powerful way to sell. When I was in Rodan and Fields, no one’s going to buy something from you. If you’re – one, this is my opinion. If you’re not authentic and people can’t relate to you, right, or they don’t know you. If I was going to actually make a decent income, it was building authentic relationships and just being myself, so people could get to know me, so that then they’ll feel comfortable buying from me. 

It taught me so many life lessons. Part of that was just getting in the habit of posting on social media every day and regardless of what it was, if it was just like whatever – I mean, I was always taught to keep it in three categories, but for me, it was always three things, family, and probably enough, one was pharmacy. I was already posting a lot of things about pharmacy organically. Then it was a more natural stepping stone to start my own business, but as part of that, I just honestly switch from, because I’m focused more on B2B. 

I switch just to doing the same thing on LinkedIn to build my pharmacy presence, to build authentic connections and to network. That’s honestly how I’ve been able to meet amazing people like you. That has been the most powerful tool. That was embedded in me from sales. The other thing I do want to say is, pharmacists are the crappiest salesmen. Because of that, our profession has taken a hit. We have to be a good salesman to show our worth and push and advocate for our profession to go into a more innovative direction. 

[0:15:07] CS: That’s such a beautiful statement that resonates with me a lot, because I work a lot with legislature and talking to senators and elected officials. They truly don’t realize what a pharmacist does outside of a dispensing role. 

[0:15:22] JQ: No.

[0:15:23] CS: Especially, like you just said, as the profession evolves alongside technology, it’s going to drastically change in the next 10 years, we really have to learn to advocate for ourselves. You’re already just ahead of the curve by having your own business and being able to do that independently. It’s a wonderful thing. 

[0:15:41] JQ: Yeah. I think AI is going to be a sole crusher for a lot of the dispensing roles. I didn’t even know that AI was on the horizon when I started this. My husband is IT in cybersecurity. He’s always in my head, but like, he’s like, “Whatever you’re doing, you better not be able to be replaced by AI.” It’s so true that it is going to drastically affect our profession, but that’s okay. I think it’s going to put us in, like I just said, before these long-term care pharmacies were doing compliance work, like checking out dates and counting narcotics, that can all be automated. 

There’s no reason for a pharmacist to do that. What I quickly realized was I hired pharmacy techs, and pharmacy techs are amazing at this stuff. Why is a pharmacist with eight years of education on top of, maybe residency and all these board certs, why are we doing that? The same goes with the dispensing role. We are too smart when we went to school for too long to be doing that. It really takes away from the angle, which is patient care. 

We want as much forward-facing time with the patient as possible to help the patient and advocate for them. Some of the traditional dispensing roles really take away from that. I personally think it’s an exciting time in pharmacy. I think as far as we leverage that and just use our education and sell ourselves accordingly, I think we’re going to have a lot of exciting changes on the horizon. 

[0:17:14] CS: I think so, too. I think so, too. It’ll force us to really utilize our clinical skill set across the board in a way that probably hasn’t been forced before. 

[0:17:22] JQ: Yeah. 

[0:17:23] CS: Jena, I also want to touch on the fact that you’ve said you just hired technicians or that you’ve hired technicians. Let’s talk about the growth of your team. How long were you just a solopreneur really facing everything just by yourself? When did you start to hire? What did that look like? Who was ultimately your first hire? I would love to know that as well. 

[0:17:43] JQ: Obviously, because it was such a cluster. This is true Jena fashion. I signed – I started taking private patients just as my beta patients, because I do think, like okay, I wanted to get used to the EHR. I wanted to also get PGX certified, this little like 20 CEs, but I also wanted to really take patients, because there’s not an abundance of pediatric literature in PGX. I wanted to get comfortable on that, because I do think again, that’s the way of the future. We’re going to have to utilize that to take the best care of our patients. 

I started just taking like private pay patients. That’s how I got started financially, but also just getting used to everything, as far as the EHR and training. Then I got five contracts all at once. I didn’t understand how medically complex these kids were, until I opened the chart. Of 120 of the roughly growing, I don’t know, so what I’m doing is some quick math in my head, like 300 of them were had a minimum of 23 medications on their chart. 

[0:19:08] CS: Wow. 

[0:19:08] JQ: I got all these dropped on me at the same time. I was like, “Oh, my God. What did I sign up for?” I quickly realized that I could not do this by myself. If I did, I would be, so to give you again, I’m all about shedding light on things that should have their curtains unveiled. The prior long-term care gave these pharmacists 15 hours for 120 critically ill pediatric patients trait that due to dependent. 15 hours a month at $200. I couldn’t even open and close the chart. Plus, do the compliance work which is go through the med room and make sure, count the narcotics and all that. I quickly outsourced that. 

That was, honestly my first hire, was I had a technician that I loved at the hospital that I worked with. I said, “Hey, I need help. Are you looking for like PRN contractor hours?” She jumped on board. She helped alleviate at least, like I said, the doing all the compliance work. But then I realized that proudly for the first year me and my husband were going to be paying to take care of these kids, as awful as that sounds. I think the pharmacy profession is so in need of advocacy and change. I knew that I needed my proof of concept before anybody even listened to me. It wasn’t until I got the numbers of cost savings, cost avoidance. I knew they were going to be like, “This is a really cute idea, little girl.” I’m all but not even five foot. 

I know people were not going to take me seriously. My first nine months of this business, which we just got all that exciting data in last month, was just hiring pharmacists and quite frankly, breaking even. It was just breaking even. What we were providing was the comprehensive medication management for all patients who had never had it before. Providing pharmacogenomics, doing calls to parents who wanted to be a part of the care. Also, giving some compliance medication compliance software. We have an app, a med rep that really shows the parents in 50-day print languages called MedActionPlan, but where to draw up on this syringe, what exactly did you expect from an ADR standpoint, when to call us. 

All these services were provided out of pocket by me and my husband. I just knew that it needed to be done, this proof of concept, because we’ve never have been outside of the hospital walls with an exception of somewhere like pediatric and care clinics where the hospital was funding it, but there’s never been a true pharmacist consultant role. I knew that in sales, you need to solidify your proof of concept. It took me nine months. Now that we have the numbers, we are in talks of some really exciting big contracts, but it took a really long time. 

[0:22:18] CS: It’s beautiful that you were able to have the mindset and the wherewithal and the experience to be like, “Okay, I’m going to have to do proof of concept.” You were willing to just eat it for nine months. Then be able to put it together. Ultimately, set yourself up for something that’s probably really great long term, just knowing that you had to prove your worth, especially in this new, like you said, this is a new niche for pharmacist in New Jersey.

[0:22:42] JQ: Yeah.

[0:22:42] CS: Realizing, you’ll have to put all that together.

[0:22:44] JQ: Yeah.

[0:22:45] CS: Some of those, maybe the intricacies of the concepts or of the contracts, Jena, what did that look like? What did your first contract look like? Were you all set up to go for billing? Did you have to get collaborative practice agreements? What did that first contract look like? Then, where is it today? 

[0:23:02] JQ: Yeah. Again, something, sometimes I don’t even understand what I’m doing until I do it, but I was like, I knew I was going to – whatever I was going to do, I was going to take care of these kids. When we first got the contracts, the collaborative practices weren’t in place, but what I very quickly realized was that these positions or providers, and just like anywhere, they are very, very stretched thin. We were given an average of 10 to 15 recommendations per chart. They did not have the bandwidth to go in and make those changes. That was pretty evident and very quickly. 

I was like, this is not going to benefit anybody if we don’t get a collaborative practice in place. We have collaborative practices in place, which are a beautiful thing, I think should be the standard of care for any pharmacist practicing, just because it just builds our autonomy and puts us in the same pedestal, or just honestly, the same building opportunities and capabilities as PAs and MPs who have done a beautiful job in establishing their work. They’re not doing anything automated with dispensing. 

I really look at them, those two professions as like, how can we be like them? How can I be like an MP today or a PA? I don’t want to diagnose, but how is there a way that I can use my medical – my medication knowledge to optimize patient care, be in front of the patient, be a part of their team? So, within two months, we got that up and rolling again. It is hard, I had to scramble to find who’s a good health care lawyer in the area, so they can help read my contracts, because you don’t want to do anything blind. 

They’ve been an awesome addition to Perfecting Peds, an awesome and expensive addition, but necessary. What that looked like was, we would basically take over what they were doing, but instead, we just did a deep dive of comprehensive men management through a collaborative practice agreement in the pharmacogenomics. As far as we’re our contracts at now, I can’t disclose too much, but we are starting in talks with insurance companies, because in New Jersey, unfortunately, there is no opportunities to build, even incidents, too. 

It is very disheartening. I know we were talking about you being in Hawaii and you feel like you traveled back in time. I worked at a hospital where I had so much autonomy, like too much autonomy. Then I came to outpatient lands and I couldn’t even change the concentration of the men. I was like, “What’s happening?” It was like, I just couldn’t believe, I was just so dumbfounded. We were talking about advocacy and legislative, I really admire what you’re doing for the Board of Pharmacy in Hawaii and advocacy. I think it’s just so needed, because I’m not political and so many people get me out of me when I say I’ve never even voted. 

I realized real quick, I was going to get political, because this is – how we’re practicing is not okay. Again, proof of concept. I knew if I had that I could take it to insurance companies, I could take it to other facilities, I could take it to home care companies, all these different places. It didn’t have to be in New Jersey, right? Because I had that barrier of billing in New Jersey, but for example, in a couple of weeks we’re launching in Minnesota. We have some opportunities in Colorado. You know what? It’s not the best thing, but it’s like, okay, well then I’ll practice where I can practice until I give you guys enough literature, which we are publishing to understand that this should be the standard of things.

[0:27:02] CS: It’s amazing. So much of what you’re saying really resonates with me, because it’s amazing to realize that pharmacists are some of the only healthcare or the only healthcare professional that’s just taught to give away information for free. That’s not saying we shouldn’t be answering questions when patients come to the counter and they’re receiving a prescription. Ultimately, any other profession is billing for the services that we are already providing. Your proof of concept is just going to hopefully add so much knowledge and leaps and bounds of data of what can be done when we can practice at the top of our license. I think that’s going to be so meaningful. 

[0:27:39] JQ: Corrie, to your point, I didn’t realize – this is not an exaggeration, weekly for the past nine – I guess people started catching when I’m a pediatric and maternal health pharmacist about  – after I grew more confidence after a job. Then I was talking. I told you about posting, so then I would post tips and tricks. What I realized is that a minimum of 20 to 30 people were coming to me a week for their child or their selves. 

I did it for  nine years and then I was like, “Damn, I think this is a business.” I’m like, “Why is nobody else doing this?” We’re just mad at pharmacists at our profession, because I’m like, like you’re saying, every other person can build. And coming with all this, we have this unique knowledge. I mean, daily, we make these life-changing interventions and we don’t get any compensation for it. How is that okay? Long story short, it’s just not. 

[0:28:49] CS: Exactly. Jena, I want to circle back on something that you just brought up that we didn’t get to touch on before is your social media strategy. Something that I do love about following you is how authentic you are, and you said that that’s always been your intention is to just be authentic across all platforms. What are you using primarily? Are you focused on LinkedIn? Do you use Twitter and Instagram? How do you delineate between the different platforms and where do you put a lot of your time? 

[0:29:17] JQ: I’ve been most of my time in LinkedIn, just because like, do you think that as a profession, if we put a lot of our time there, well organically, and over time, educate the not only fellow pharmacists, but other fellow providers, too. There honestly is no strategy similar to my life, but what I do is I try to do one to two real patient cases, things that I saw this week that – or I tried to do the week prior that our team made a huge impact. Oh, and to your – you did ask, we are seven contractor pharmacists, two technicians and an assistant at this moment.

[0:30:00] CS: Wow. 

[0:30:01] JQ: I want to flip – I’m starting to explore a few things, people over the full-time, which is an exciting change, but that being said, I have my team. We all – for the perfecting piece, we just revamped it, so that we can streamline how we’re visioning this as my goal. As for perfecting piece to be anything from preconception, I’m thinking about having a kid. What are the things I need to know to add lessons? We just started, because I wanted to revamp and have it organized, as far as the flow goes, but all of us on the team take task at different posts to do the Instagram Perfecting Peds, which close onto our Facebook and then the LinkedIn Perfecting Peds page. 

Now we’re consistently posting there, because it was hard to do LinkedIn and all the other things. I just focused on LinkedIn for the first year, which has provided so much opportunities, network and the opportunities have given me more than I’ve given them, but I tried to do at least two real cases to showcase. Again, I’m a salesman, like, “Look, this is what pharmacist can do.” Then I try to do three hot topics or any, or it could be anything, whether it’s related to just entrepreneurs in the general, things I’ve learned, tips and tricks. Again, a lot of them are authentic, not all of them are this positive rainbow. I just try to keep it real. I have three kids, I understand that everything gets messy. That’s for sure. 

[0:31:38] CS: There’s no way around that, I’m sure.

[0:31:40] JQ: Yeah.

[0:31:41] CS: Jena, I had said this to you prior to when we started recording the podcast. But something that I really admire about you is that the stage of life that you were in when you started your business. You had already had two kids, your third was on the way. Was that more of a motivator to step away from your job or did that make things scary? What was your mindset going into the transition being in that chapter of your life? 

[0:32:02] JQ: Yes. My first two were clomid babies. I was pretty sure I wasn’t able to have children, naturally. Me and my husband had closed that chapter. I bought my LLC and four days later, I found out I was pregnant. I think, like a normal person would have felt like maybe this is my sign. God saying, “Don’t do this.” But then I thought, I was like, “God’s given me nine months to get this bad boy up and running.” So, I did. I used that. I also used leaned into it that the fact that I can’t do this alone. 

One of my past mentors, who quite frankly scared the hell out of me, is at [inaudible 0:32:42] you reached out and said, “I’ve been thinking about doing exactly what you’re doing for 10 years of my life and you’re inspiring. Can I basically work for you?” I’m like, “Yeah.” She’s a – she’s so much harder than I ever – again. She teaches me so much. It was a humbling experience to see that, but I knew that I was going to force me not to be the bottleneck of the company in multiple things, because I knew, I needed to take whether it was six weeks or whatever maternity leave. 

In order to do that, I needed to build up some systems and standard operating procedures so that I wasn’t the only one that could do it. That was something that I knew from the start of it. I had an implement and had nine months to implement. I did use it as fire, to be quite honest. My hospital gave me six weeks after the birth of my second daughter. It really pissed me off. They’re going to do the same shit again. So, I used that as, even though I loved everything about my job, the people, but it was just like HR. They were adamant that even though I’d only worked 960 hours, I needed 1000 to get an additional six weeks. They were only going to give me that six weeks and family time for me and my employees is non-negotiable. It really did not sit well with me. I knew if I could build this up enough that most likely, I’d be able to leave right around then and that’s one of us. 

[0:34:21] CS: That’s amazing. I actually just had goosebumps when you were saying that one of your old mentors reached out to you saying that she’d been thinking about it for so long, because most people really will choose being in an uncomfortable place over uncertainty and taking a leap that they don’t know where they’re going to end up. I’m sure that was just an amazing sign from your end of being like, okay – I’m doing the right thing. I have people supporting me. I feel like, especially in the entrepreneur community, it’s not uncommon to have that support.

[0:34:51] JQ: Oh, yeah.

[0:34:52] CS: It’s great that you – yeah. It’s great that you were able to get that immediate gratification almost from someone that you respect. That’s an amazing way to start. 

[0:35:01] JQ: Yeah. Like I tease, but she was just one of those people that her intelligence was so intimidating. Yeah, it was humbling to say the least. And then just a couple of days ago, I was on the call with another past pharmacist I worked with. Again, because I came from just one-year residency and these girls were no BS. If you’re going to touch a patient, you better know what you’re talking about. I only had one, I was one of the few, if not the only, that only had one year. They were hard on me. It was just weird talking to her the other day and she’s like, “Are you hiring?” Who would have thought that my mentors would be asking one day if I’m hiring. 

It’s humbling, but just another reminder of just how life works out. Yeah, I mean, there wasn’t any certainty to be a 100% honest, my husband would kill me. I knew, I was going – I just wanted to do this full-time. I quit and then the next day I told my husband. It wasn’t like – because I knew I had to do this and he was always going to tell me, he’s so supportive, but he’s not a risk taker. I knew he was going to keep telling me, “Just keep doing the weekends. Just keep doing the weekends. It’s an extra $600.” But he wasn’t appreciating how much that was taking away from my business and my attention. Yeah, I don’t advise wives to do that. I was like – I’d would rather tell you that I cheated on you. He’s like, “Oh, God. This is not“ 

[0:36:37] CS: Let me set the stage here. 

[0:36:40] JQ: I did something worse, I cheated on you. I quit my job without telling you. He knows me enough that he was like, “All right, well, you’re going to figure it out. You’re going to figure it out.” Yeah, it was just like nobody – it’s just such a hard thing to actually, you’re never going to be ready to be like, all right, I’m just doing this. It’s just like, man – I was like, “I just have to do it.” I felt I was slowly dragging it out and that was actually causing me a lot of anxiety, too. I’m like, “No, no, no, you have to do. This is what your heart said on, just do that.” 

[0:37:18] CS: There certainly becomes a point when you are developing your business on the side where your job becomes more of a detriment than an asset to your new business. The fact that you were able, you were feeling that and you knew this is, I need to make the job, I need to make the cut. There’s certainly an element of sink or swim to leaving your job, but there’s also a very large element of planning and making sure that you’re ready and that you have something up and running, so that when you make that transition, it’s not as scary. 

[0:37:46] JQ: Yeah. I knew.  I’m like, all right, at the minimum, I have these facilities at least for a year and that will give you enough time to show our work, essentially. It’s what I knew. I started the clock. 

[0:37:58] CS: That’s right. All right. Jena, I’m going to wind this up with just three easy questions that I think will really resonate with the listeners and maybe give them some inspiration to starting something new or maybe pursuing a non-traditional pharmacy career path. What is the most memorable aspect of being a business owner and why? 

[0:38:19] JQ: I would say, honestly, when I was in the hospital some days, it sounds so dramatic. I just didn’t look forward to going to work, right? I think being a business owner, and I wake up every day with a fire in my belly. I have control to change patients’ lives. So, that’s really where, because I’m in the driver’s seat and quite transparently as I start looking for different investors and stuff to really build this up, it’s just a non-negotiable for me that clinical comes first and then we’ll figure out a way to get reimbursed and everything, secondarily. 

I think my being able to apply my own values instead of relying on my bosses, even though my own boss is not, she’s amazing, but instead of relying on somebody else, I think that was really what gets me fired up is I can create this, I can make it so that patients get the best care, and that really fires me up every day. 

[0:39:25] CS: It benefits you. It benefits the patients. It keeps you going. It’s just wonderful once you’ve felt that. It’s great motivation to continue what you’re doing. What is one piece of advice for anyone that’s contemplating a non-traditional career path? 

[0:39:39] JQ: I think, go for it. The worst case when you go back to your traditional job, right? That’s the question my husband – I have 12 years of pediatric experience. I can easily find another job if I need to or I ended on such great terms, like my boss said, “Come back whenever you want.” So, worst-case scenario, you go back to where you were, right? I mean, I’m going to give it a good try, I think you need to at least do it for a year to see if you’re gaining an attraction.

I do think – I’m always like the worst-case scenario, if we were drowning and I couldn’t pay my bills and give my girls what they need, I would just go back to it. I’ll go walk in the CVS and apply and get a stupid bonus. That might be miserable, but you know what I mean? But that’s the worst-case scenario is you go back to a traditional job. We’re needing it now, so leverage it. 

[0:40:35] CS: That’s right. I mean, COVID has shined a light on the profession in a way that hasn’t been shown before. It’s great that pharmacists are using that to their advantage to finally advocate for the profession. It’s a beautiful time for you to be making this transition and have a company that’s so successful in such a short amount of time. It’s wonderful. 

[0:40:52] JQ: Oh, thank you. Definitely – 

[0:40:54] CS: Then last question for you. Your favorite part about being a pharmacy entrepreneur.

[0:40:59] JQ: Advocating on the behalf of our profession. Like I said, before we started this. I lived in this really ignorant bubble of, “Oh, my God. Pharmacists are awesome.” I worked in hospital settings. I had basically collaborative practices. It felt even more than a collaborative practice, especially with the medical residents and the attendings, because you got to know them so well and they were such a trust factor. I quickly realized when I tried to make some changes, when I first started pre-collaborative practice with a lot of my kiddos, you couldn’t even change concentrations of medications. 

I’m like, if we’re not equipped to do that, who is? It’s really, again, I admire what you’re doing. Getting involved in like the legislation change. That’s my – after five years, after I build this up, that is the next step for me is getting involved, because – of course, I’m involved in associations and everything. Again, I wasn’t active in a single association before entrepreneurism. 

Now, I think I’m a serial association person. I’m in 10 pharmacist associations. Then a couple other just random entrepreneur ones. It really, again, if I’m in a position where I can advocate for the profession that I didn’t know we needed this much advocacy in the outpatient world, because just like you, I’d been in hospital the whole time. I didn’t realize that it was – I didn’t realize it was an issue. 

[0:42:33] CS: Well, that’s beautiful. I hope that in a couple years, you’re the state of New Jersey pharmacy practice and sitting at the Senate and pushing things forward. That would just be such a full circle moment and benefit everyone in the state. Yeah. That’s wonderful. Well, Jena, thank you for taking the time to be here today. This was such a powerful interview. I feel like you were so authentic, so many life lessons. You’re an inspiration to so many. I know just starting this business and making it so successful going across multiple states with multiple hires. I’m excited to see what Perfecting Peds does in the future. Thanks for being here. 

[0:43:08] JQ: Thank you for having me.

[OUTRO]

[0:43:11] ANNOUNCER: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show has provided you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offered to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archive newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacists unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 307: Pharmacy Innovators with Dr. Izabella Wentz (The Thyroid Pharmacist)


Best-selling author and entrepreneur Dr. Izabella Wentz (the Thyroid Pharmacist) joins Dr. Corrie Sanders on this segment of The Pharmacy Innovators sponsored by First Horizon.

About Today’s Guest

Izabella Wentz, PharmD, FASCP, is an internationally acclaimed thyroid specialist and a licensed pharmacist who has dedicated her career to addressing the root causes of autoimmune thyroid disease after being diagnosed with Hashimoto’s thyroiditis in 2009. She is the author of three books on Hashimoto’s: Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis Lifestyle Interventions for Finding and Treating the Root Cause, Hashimoto’s Food Pharmacology, and Hashimoto’s Protocol, which became a #1 New York Times bestseller.

Episode Summary

On this episode of The Pharmacy Innovators segment of the YFP podcast, sponsored by First Horizon, Dr. Izabella Wentz (The Thyroid Pharmacist) joins Dr. Corrie Sanders. Izabella is a pharmacist turned business owner and best-selling author. After being diagnosed with Hashimoto’s disease, Izabella took steps to turn her own questions into an answer for others, founding two companies, and writing three books!

Key Points From the Episode

  • Izabella shares her path to working in pharmacy.
  • Life after graduation; Izabella’s first jobs, and how managing her own Hashimoto’s disease influenced her path. 
  • Izabella talks about the process and decisions she made entering into her current business.  
  • How Izabella approached writing and promoting her book. 
  • Reflections on the writing process and the lessons that Izabella has learned along the way.  
  • The practical and financial steps that Izabella took when setting up the business.  
  • Important moments of growth for Izabella’s business with regard to products and personnel.   
  • Izabella lays out her product suite, the different books she has written, and her supplement company.
  • Understanding the momentum and media coverage that Izabella has generated. 
  • Considering how Izabella’s new book can help pharmacists right now.
  • The impact that Izabella’s book has had and some of the amazing interactions she has had with readers!  
  • Izabella talks about entrepreneurship as a way to shape her own destiny. 
  • Advice from Izabella for following a passion and a unique path in the world of pharmacy. 
  • How and where to find Izabella online.

Episode Highlights

“I do this full time. I help people with Hashimoto’s take charge of their own health, and help with all kinds of health issues and manage their lifestyle to get them into remission.” — Izabella Wentz [0:09:54]

“I knew that there was a community of people like me who had been struggling with symptoms.” — Izabella Wentz [0:15:37]

“Hashimoto’s is one of the most common autoimmune conditions in the world, and one in five women might get diagnosed at some point in their lifetime.” — Izabella Wentz [0:16:09]

“I always wanted to write a book. Ever since I was little girl, I would make up books in my head.” — Izabella Wentz [0:19:58]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] CS: Hi, guys. Corrie Sanders here, host of the Pharmacy Innovators segment of the YFP Podcast. Pharmacy Innovators is designed for pharmacists navigating the entrepreneurial journey. In this series, we will feature individual founder stories and strategies that will help guide current and aspiring pharmacy entrepreneurs.

Today, we featured Dr. Izabella Wentz, who successfully developed her national brand as the thyroid pharmacist. Dr. Wentz is author of three New York Times or Wall Street Journal best-selling books, and has been featured in places like USA Today, and Men’s Health, and on the Fox News Channel and 700 Club. Our discussion highlights the importance of intentional growth, networking outside of pharmacy, and leveraging experience to find a career that aligns with personal passions. Dr. Wentz recently released her latest book, the Adrenal Transformation Protocol that will be linked in the show notes. Without any further ado, and as our first guest on the Pharmacy Innovators segment, Dr. Izabella Wentz.

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[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:10] CS: Izabella, why don’t we start with a really easy question. Let’s just start with your journey into the profession. Where did you go to pharmacy school and how did you get led into pharmacy in the first place?

[0:02:20] IW: Well, I grew up in Poland and I grew up in a medical clinic. Our residence was actually attached to the medical clinic because my mom was a town doctor. I would go everywhere with my mom. I don’t know, I don’t think they had babysitters back in the day in Poland. I remember I would go to pharmacy runs with her. I stepped into the pharmacy, and the pharmacists were just lovely, and loved looking at all of the medicines on the shelf. My mom told me that pharmacists help people, and they give them medicine to heal them. I thought, I must have been maybe five or six years old, and I thought to myself, “I’d like to be a pharmacist one day, right?” 

As I was going through high school, as I was going through trying to figure out what I wanted to do in life, I was really interested in chemistry, and I was really interested in helping people, and I was hoping to maybe find a cure for disorder. I had this amazing teacher in high school, Mr. Airy, it was called public service curriculum class that I joined, and he would give us all kinds of exposures to – if we were interested as a junior in high school to, you know, in like social work, then he would give us an internship at like a clinic, where we’d be cleaning up the kids’ toys. But we thought it was important as high school students. We got to experience some of these amazing, credible professions. 

I told him that I was interested in pharmacy, and so he’s like, “Oh, okay. Interesting.” Then a week later, he comes back to me with this fax of some sort, and he’s like, “You have to call this pharmacist and they’re a few towns over from where you are, but they’re looking to hire pharmacy technicians. I had just turned 16, and so I went to this job interview, and I got hired as a pharmacy technician. I don’t know if this still holds true, but I was the youngest person that became a certified pharmacy technician in Illinois at age 17. And I started working in the pharmacy at Walgreens, and loved being a pharmacy technician, and really enjoyed it, and really loved learning about medications. I really loved learning about physiology, and biochemistry, and medications. I went to University of Illinois for undergrad, and majored in pre pharmacy, and then — go [inaudible0:04:36].

Then, after that, I applied to Midwestern University College of Pharmacy in Downers Grove, Illinois, and was fortunate enough to be accepted and was in a beautiful class for four years and got my PharmD in 2006.

[0:04:53] CS: Amazing. Amazing. I love that you had such a great read on the profession so early on in your life. That’s really, really an amazing opportunity that just led you to step right into the path of full force, it sounds like.

[0:05:06] IW: Absolutely, I definitely knew what I was getting myself into, and I was excited, and I really enjoyed it. I was super excited to learn more about medications, and all of the things, right?

[0:05:19] CS: That’s right. The never-ending list of things that have to do with pharmacy practice. So you graduated from the University of Illinois. Then, where did you transition from there? What was your first job in pharmacy? Did you stay in the community setting? Or did you ultimately transition out of that space pretty quickly? What that looked like for you?

[0:05:36] IW: When I graduated, my fiancée at the time, who’s now my husband was accepted into graduate school in Arizona. I ended up working for a company that was doing phone consulting. It was like a hospice, Excel RX, an East Coast-based company where I did that for some time, where I was in a clinical position working with hospice patients, and the nurses, and taking phone orders, making some adjustments, and recommendations based on that. Then I ended up wanting to stay a little bit closer to home. I ended up working at a pharmacy at Target Pharmacy in Scottsdale, Arizona.

After that, my husband ended up getting his MBA. It was a master’s program and we moved. At that point, we moved to Los Angeles, California, and I had had a little bit of trouble getting my license over in California. It’s like such a long process. Oh my goodness, right?

[0:06:37] CS: Right. Notoriously difficult.

[0:06:41] IW: So I worked as an intern at Lorena Pharmacy in East Los Angeles, which was a fabulous experience. They filled just a super, super busy neighborhood pharmacy, where people would walk in and everybody spoke Spanish, and got some really great experience with some prescriptive authority, and kind of collaborative practice agreements with physicians in the community. That was a super fun experience. 

Then after that, I, I really wanted to use my clinical skills. We ended up moving again. I wanted to focus on helping people with developmental disabilities because that had been my prior work in my rotations. A big interest of mine in high school, in pharmacy school. I ended up working at a case management company in California in the South Bay Area. I was the clinical consultant pharmacist on staff. I helped social workers to help their patients have the best potential medication outcomes. What that meant is, I was going into group homes a lot of times, and looking at people’s medications, and making sure they weren’t having any adverse drug reactions. I was oftentimes making a lot of recommendations to get people off of drugs or perhaps recommending medications that they should have been on, perhaps recommending some lifestyle changes, looking for alternatives for them. That was a nontraditional route. 

Then, I moved back to Chicago for my husband’s job. At that point, I worked for GlaxoSmithKline in pharmaceutical sales, which was a really fantastic experience as well. I got to see a little bit of how the inner workings of that went. Kind of throughout that process, I was actually diagnosed with Hashimoto’s when I was at the consulting pharmacist job. I was going into different pharmacies as part of my sales rep position, and I remember talking to these brilliant pharmacists. Some of them had their own pharmacies, and they were giving me all this information that I hadn’t really learned about at this point. And they were talking about lifestyle medicine and integrative medicine.

I would come and talk to them about asthma and our asthma drugs. They were like, “Did you know that fish oil can be really helpful for inflammatory conditions?” This was really fascinating. They would talk to me about probiotics, and they would talk to me about adrenal dysfunction and adrenal fatigue. I was like, this is really, really cool. My job was to actually call on pharmacies as a pharmaceutical sales rep, and I got to meet so many brilliant pharmacists in the Chicago land area.

Throughout that process, I really got into like the integrative lifestyle functional medicine. I used to drive a lot in pharmaceutical sales. So I started reading Dr. Mark Hyman’s audiobooks, started listening to them while I was driving. I just started utilizing a lot of these functional medicine things, started doing my own research, and I was able to get my Hashimoto’s into remission while working in pharmaceutical sales, and then later in public health. Ended up writing a book about Hashimoto’s and it’s been 10 years since it’s been released. Right now, I do this full time is I help people with Hashimoto’s take charge of their own health, and help all kinds of health issues manage their lifestyle to get them into remission. I talk about using the right medications. I also talk about all the other preventative measures and lifestyle things. The root causes. 

Kind of a long resume. We moved a lot because of my husband’s job. I felt like I always had to learn a lot of new things and I had to get really good at networking, and kind of finding the right opportunities in every city that I lived in. We lived in Los Angeles, we lived in the South Bay, we lived in Chicago, we lived in Scottsdale. We now live in Austin, Texas. We’ve lived in Colorado. It was always – you really have to as a pharmacist, if you are looking for these opportunities outside of the traditional route, you really I feel like have to get good at connecting with others, and being able to figure out what your own possibilities might be.

[0:10:55] CS: I think you summed that up so, beautifully about being able to thrive in different environments, and being able to work with different groups of people, or being able to find a situation that you can contribute to, even though it might be different than the practice setting that you were in before. I mean, just based off how many times you moved, and what your career path looks like, before you even got diagnosed with Hashimoto’s, and ultimately got put on a little bit of a different trajectory just goes to show the great utility of a pharmacist. If you’re aware of tuning into your environment and the services that you can provide, how you can be successful as you move through different avenues of pharmacy and different areas of practice. Kudos to you, that’s really, really amazing.

That alone, even if we don’t talk about the rest of your career, I feel like it’s pretty inspiring in and of itself. Let’s talk about – and you’ve done a great job of really talking about this on different platforms, different podcasts, and different interviews in all over your website. Your diagnosis with Hashimoto’s, and what that ultimately looked like and where you were in your career during that time. 

I know you mentioned you are working for GSK. At what point did you start really diving into that disease state and thinking about, “Wow, okay. This is something that I want to pick up full time and this is how I’m going to do it”? Can you talk a little bit about kind of that transition, and getting all that information, and really taking control of the market, or doing a market analysis, and in finding where you can provide value?

[0:12:25] IW: Sure. I got diagnosed living in California working in the consultant role. My job was to help people who were not able to advocate for themselves to advocate for their health. A lot of times, I was working with people with developmental disabilities, and people with really complicated health conditions, multiple medications. Some of them had mental health diagnoses as well. Some of them had rare genetic disorders. There wasn’t really a standard of care for them.

A lot of times, I was looking for answers for my clients that weren’t necessarily readily available. I would look for answers on PubMed, I would look at patient forums. I would talk to parents who had children with maybe the same condition or try to get information from the genetic conferences for all of these different conditions to try to figure out like, what can I do for this person that has this rare condition. Can we utilize a different kind of therapy maybe that’s off label use or maybe something, right? Why is this beautiful little girl with cerebral palsy, why is she hitting herself all of a sudden? She’s nonverbal, what can that mean? What could that mean? 

A lot of times, I would learn that people who weren’t able to speak up and advocate for themselves were in pain, and that caused them to be aggressive against themselves, aggressive against others. Just throughout that position, I really had to study and learn a lot, and learn how to be a researcher to help advocate for my patients, and clients. Then when I got diagnosed myself, I was like, by that time I had learned, I had seen that not all doctors are created equally, right? Sometimes the answers are there if you dig deeper enough. One client that we had worked with had all these psychiatric issues that somehow vanished when she went on a gluten free diet. She had celiac disease, right? I was just like, “That’s really interesting.” Of course, there’s a lot of research to support that people with celiac disease, can have other manifestations outside of their gut health. These things can be helped by going gluten free. 

Then, I just got in this rabbit hole searching for answers for Hashimoto’s. First, I was kind of like paralysis by analysis. I was like, “What can I do better?” I ended up finally being able to kind of take charge when I was working at the GlaxoSmithKline, is when I had – just changed my diet around, and started adding some more things into my routine, learning so much from people that I was meeting along my journey. Then, I kind of ended up working in public health where we were looking at like a root cause analysis to healthcare quality improvement. I was like, “Ah, the root cause. What is the root cause?” I kind of took that approach that we utilized with people for health care, like adverse drug events, and things of that nature. I was like, “How can I do that in my own health?” 

I ended up dialing in and figuring out how to get myself really, really well. I didn’t necessarily like do a market analysis, right? So I didn’t do a business plan for Hashimoto’s. But I knew that there was a community of people like me who had been struggling with symptoms. They were Facebook groups that I was a part of, that people had Hashimoto; and they were searching for answers, just like I was. I thought to myself, once I kind of recovered my health, I need to write this down, and I need to get this out into the world so I could help more people.

That’s how I ended up getting started is, really just – I had a huge passion to get the message out to help people, knowing that Hashimoto’s is one of the most common autoimmune conditions in the world, and one in five women might get diagnosed at some point in their lifetime. This is very relevant. Synthroid has been the top prescribed drug like every other year, unless you count opioids. I mean, I wasn’t necessarily worried about people not having it. I know, somebody in my family said, it’s like, “Well, what if you reached everybody in Hashimoto’s?” I’m like, “Well, there’s a lot of people. I’m pretty sure they need my help, right?” “What if you reach every single person with Hashimoto’s?” “Well, that would be amazing if I did, but there’s so many of them.

I’m sure there’s at least a few of them that could benefit from the information. Honestly, it was just passion, and trying to get the message out there that got me started and got me excited about it. But I didn’t quit my job, right? So I wasn’t like, “Okay, I’m going to quit my job, write a book, and just be a full time Hashimoto’s expert.” I use the time after work to work on the book, once I [inaudible 0:17:09]. Then, I had flex time at work. I would do, you know, like a day off every two weeks if I worked an hour extra, right? I utilize that time very wisely to really work on my book. Then, once my book became more popular, and I used a lot of social media to get the word out about it, then I was like, “Okay. How do I replace my salary as a pharmacist?” Then, it was about 33 books a day. I had to sell that many books to replace my salary.

I got to that point, and when I was comfortable that the books were selling, I was able to replace my salary. That’s when I transitioned over to working full time as the thyroid pharmacist, which also coincided with my husband having a new opportunity in Amsterdam, Netherlands. I was not licensed in the Netherlands, nor did I want to become licensed. I was like, “Okay. It’s either this or nothing, right?

[0:18:09] CS: Here we go. Yes. It’s one thing to get licensed in another state, but it’s a whole another thing to try to look at licensure in another country, I’m sure.

[0:18:17] IW: Yes, in a foreign language and I was like – I just – I really need to focus on, this is my passion. I really, really want to help people, I feel like people could really benefit from kind of the dots that I’ve connected along my own journey. So 2014 is when we moved to the Netherlands, and I was doing this full time from that point forward.

[0:18:37] CS: Wow. That is amazing. I just want to highlight. I feel like you’ve said so many important things, just in that journey alone. One about learning that not all doctors are created equal. But you know, not all pharmacy school curriculums are created either and not every curriculum can fit in all the nuances, and intricacies, and off label uses of every single disease. From your own personal experience, really dove into finding that niche, and not even having to do market analysis, because you knew that niche already existed, you understood the need, and you really skipped – I mean, what would be a large amount of business plan steps or steps to create a business just based off your experience alone, which is – I mean, that’s so amazing that you knew that the work you were doing was going to be impactful just right off the bat because you were you were already in that space. Let’s talk a little bit too about when you’re writing your book, and I know you said you were, you were doing it after work and outside of your nine to five.

But what were some of the biggest lessons from that journey, and have you always had a passion for writing. How did you decide that, you know, a book is the best way I’m going to go about. Really creating this resource for my patients, and for people with Hashimoto’s. Why a book, why not a Facebook community, or a different means to engage with an audience? How did that come about?

[0:19:58] IW: I always wanted to write book. Ever since I was little girl, I would like make up books in my head. Fun fact is, my mom is an identical twin, and her daughter, Olivia, who looks like me lives in Poland, and she’s a novelist. She’s published four novels.

[0:20:15] CS: So it’s in your blood?

[0:20:17] IW: You know, they’re like fantasy fiction. The target audience is 17-year-old girls, and we used to be pen pals, right? I’ve always had a passion for writing. I used to write terrible poetry in my teens, and even enjoyed writing projects in undergrad, and in pharmacy school, right? That was always interesting and fun to me. I decided to write a book, because I also had another cousin in Poland that was diagnosed with a condition. I was like, “Okay. If I can write a book, and my mom can translate it, then at least, somebody will have a guide.” Then my husband who started running ultra-marathons, he had written a book about ultra-marathons, and he wrote this book and self-published it. He kind of paved the trail for me, right? Because he figured out how to do the self-publishing, and all of that.

Then I took a course called – what is it called? The Author Within. When I was living in Scottsdale, there’s this lovely gentleman from Sedona, who has crystals, and talks about how you can bird your book. He had a talk at a community college that I went to on my day off of pharmacy school. His method is basically, you just sit down, and you just keep writing, and you can take a little bit of time every day. So you spend an hour a day. If you have writer’s block, then you do editing. If you don’t try editing, then you do researching. But just like, spend an hour a day on this and just work on it.

I started it may be like in 2011. Then, the research, I got diagnosed in 2009. Research took a lot of time, but the book was published in 2013, in May. I was a very cathartic process. It’s like, by the time you’re almost done with your book, you can’t stamp it. It [inaudible 0:22:05] with every four of my books. It’s kind of like – I feel like tort. You know you’re almost done with it, where you just want to be done with and kind of feels like pregnancy when you’re like nine months pregnant, and you’re just like, I just don’t want that baby out, right?

[0:22:21] CS: Yes. Or like musicians, you hear about by the time the final edit is done, and they have to go to a concert, they hate their own music, because they’ve been working on it for so long. I’m sure it’s very, very similar. Izabella, you kind of answered my question. I was going to say, who were mentors in the writing space? How did you kind of navigate your way down that path? It sounds like, you know, it’s in your blood. You had an aunt who was going to help you, and then your husband, of course, had already written a book. But what about business – oh, he hadn’t written a book.

[0:22:50] IW: He had written a book, but my cousin, she actually wrote a book. She wrote books after I wrote my books. I feel like it’s amazing when somebody in your network does something. Because then, it makes it possible for everybody around you, right? I remember telling my friends in the pharmacy space that I was going to write a book about – that I was going to heal my Hashimoto’s, and I was going to write a book about how to heal Hashimoto’s to help other people with Hashimoto’s heal their Hashimoto’s. And I was going to do that full time and not work, and that was going to be my full-time job. They’re like, “Yes, great.”

[0:23:27] CS: Did you have any mentors in business? That’s a whole another thing, right? You’ve got the mentors in the publishing and the writing space. But where did you turn to for guidance, just with business in general, and running your business, what payroll looks like, and how you’re paying yourself, and getting an LLC started, all those business-oriented details. Did you turn to anybody or any resource for guidance in that respect? Or did you just kind of trial by fire, push forward, and see what happens?

[0:23:56] IW: I set up an LLC, like in our local towns. I just went in and I was like, “Okay. I need to have an LLC. My dad has his own business, so I got to ask him a lot of questions. I know in pharmacy school, we had a management class, so that was also very helpful. My husband has a degree in finance, and so that was super helpful, basic budgeting things. A lot of people within the business space, I know a lot of entrepreneurs, like they don’t count their money. I think in pharmacists, like counting is in our blood, right? 

It’s like you set up a spreadsheet and you say like, these are your expenses when you have a business and you count everything. We have a line item for like your pharmacy license renewal, you have a subscription for your website, how much does this professional education course you take? You go through, and you make a list of every single thing that you’re spending money on, and then you also have a list of all of your, you know, where’s the money coming from? Is it coming from consulting? Is it coming from books? Is it coming from so on and so forth?

You want to make sure those numbers are balanced every month. Because if not, if you’re spending more money than you’re making, then you have an expensive hobby, not a business, right? You have to manage that. I’m very fortunate enough. My husband has that degree in finance, and he was working for Morningstar at the time. He was busy with work, and he was so helpful to advise me, but I did go through a lot of working with accountants, and setting things up, and the bookkeepers, and so on and so forth. Then, as far as like setting that up, that’s kind of one part of it, right? As far as the marketing and the business end, I do have an amazing mentor for that.

[0:25:41] CS: Yes, that’s amazing. I so respect your story because it sounds like you were really building this business. Then it just happened where you and your husband needed to move, and it was the right time to jump, and all the stars aligned. And you were like, “Okay, here we go.” There’s a component of do or die at that point in your life, but you had spent so much time really building out your niche, and your product, and it just ended up ultimately working for you to be like, “Okay. I’m going to pull the trigger, and here we go, full steam ahead. We’re moving to Amsterdam.” 

But yes, all those other components can really bog someone down. I think having an idea, and having either that product, or that service in line is one great thing. But it’s so easy to get caught in the details, or analysis paralysis of really getting that business up and running. Thank you for sharing your resources, and just the importance of having people you can tap on within your own network, and the importance of mentors to help kind of fuzz through all the mess that can get caught in your head during a transition like that.

How has your business scaled over time. Let’s first talk about your books, and then I’ll let you elaborate because I know you’ve got a line of products that are actually in the shelf behind you right now, for those of you that are watching. Her books and her supplements are behind us. Let’s talk about how your business evolved in the products, and then also how it evolved with your team, and what that looks like, and what that timeline looked and felt like for you.

[0:27:03] IW: Sure. In 2013, I was working full time. Then, I launched my book in May of 2013. Then right around October is when I left my job, and started working on my business full time. Part of that was focusing on consulting. I would see clients with Hashimoto’s and help guide them on their own health journey. That is part of that. Then, also the book sales, right? Then, in 2014, I transitioned more to work focusing on the business full time. At that point, I had the book sales, and then I had consultations. I also set up an online dispensary where people could buy supplements for me that I was recommending, rather than having them go on like Amazon or try to – initially, I was like mailing them all out from home to people. That was like, “Okay. That’s just not happening, right?”

I set up an online dispensary that allowed people to buy really high-quality supplements from the online dispensary. Then, I collaborated with two amazing people, Andrea Nakayama and Dr. Alan Christianson. We created an educational summit for people with Hashimoto’s called The Hashimoto’s Institute, where we interviewed a whole bunch of experts. So, that was one other part of the business that I focused on in 2014. At that point, I was a solopreneur with my husband coming to help me after work, because that was a lot of work. I was working really, really long days, and having a lot of success, but a lot of things to manage. I was like, “Ugh.” I was writing my website articles, I was consulting, I was building out this platform, I was answering people’s questions through email, I was answering people on Facebook. It was a lot.

We were fortunate enough that our income was able to replace my husband’s salary at that point. So then in 2015, my husband and I moved to Boulder, Colorado, and he came to work for our business full-time. He was like our first employee and that was really fabulous. It was super fun that we both got to work from home and we got to go hiking with our dog. Then we brought on an online business manager to help us manage a lot of the moving pieces of having an online business. With that, she was able to hire a copywriter to take some of the load off of me to write things, and she was able to hire a designer, so these are all contractors. I made like the worst like art. Not my thing. I’m good at a lot of things. Drawing, and art, and web design, not my thing. 

[0:29:49] CS: It’s a different beast. It’s okay.

[0:29:52] IW: We hired somebody to make things look a little bit more pretty at that point. But prior to that, I had screenshots of things, and my drawings and word for our images. We brought on a wonderful team and then some customer service, because I was just getting so many emails with questions, that there was just – I couldn’t keep up, I could answer emails all day long and do nothing else, and I couldn’t get through them all. We ended up creating like a question database, because I realized that a lot of the questions were the same, right? We took some of our top questions, and then created answers, and then we hired people to go and provide those answers. 

Then, for whatever people were asking about, I would start writing articles about that. I hadn’t talked about what happens when you lose hair with Hashimoto’s. I ended up writing an article about that, so that my customer service team would have a resource to send to people asking questions. I think the business was just really built on helping people. People are like, what’s the secret? How did you grow so fast? How did you get to have over 400,000 followers on Facebook? How did you grow so quickly? You came out of nowhere. I was like, “I really just focused on every single person that reached out to me. I would try to help them and give them a little bit of an answer. I can’t provide medical advice over email, but you’re asking me these questions. I’ve written an article that will hopefully help you advocate for yourself, that will give you some tools, or here’s a copy of my book, it has pretty much all the information you need if you have Hashimoto’s.”

That was kind of the process in focusing on that. In 2017, we kind of had a big year, where we created a documentary series that reached over 500,000 people, called The Thyroid Secret. We brought in a lot of awareness about thyroid conditions that way, and then we also released my second book, The Hashimoto’s Protocol, and then a supplement line called Rootcology. In addition to that, I have a cookbook, and then I just am releasing my fourth book called The Adrenal Transformation Protocol in April. Then I have supplements, I have books, and then also online programs where I teach people how to take charge of their own health.

The program that I was trained in when I was working in public health was diabetes self-management program. My job was to go into various clinics, and teach practitioners, teach dietitians, or nurses, or pharmacists to run and try to set up these self-management programs, where it would be essentially like an educational group for patients. These empowered patients usually had better outcomes with diabetes, so I’m like, “I want to do the same thing for Hashimoto’s.” So I have Hashimoto’s self-management program that I created where people can take this online, and it’s 12 modules.

They can go through, learn about what lab tests do they need from a functional medicine perspective, how to make sure your thyroid hormones are optimal, how to reduce your thyroid antibodies, what are some potential triggers. It goes over like pretty much everything you need to know to take charge of your own health with Hashimoto’s. The online program is part of our product suite, as well as supplements.

[0:33:15] CS: Which is amazing. I want to highlight two things you said there, and one is about not really having to recreate the wheel, right? You looked at this diabetes model, and you were like, “Wow, this is something that I can apply to my specialty area, and be able to use that kind of structure and really take it, and run with it in a really meaningful way.” Even though it wasn’t necessarily market analysis specifically for Hashimoto’s, it’s great that you were able to take those lessons, and then apply them to your own business to help kind of streamline and guide where you were going. I think that’s really meaningful and that’s a great takeaway.

Then something else you said is, really staying true to your model of helping people. I think that probably opened a lot of doors for you, and dictated where your business was going, because you were like, “I have to answer all these emails. All these people need my help.” Then, having that constant revolving door of feedback of okay, this is what people need, here’s the articles that they’re looking for. These are the questions that they don’t have answered. I think that’s a really great meaningful way to connect with your audience, and then ultimately be able to provide them with something substantial that they can walk away with, after having an interaction with you. That’s so great.

The next question I want to ask is, you’ve gotten so much attention, and you alluded to this, in 2017, having a really big year, but you’ve been very modest throughout this entire conversation with some of the traction that you’ve had. I mean, you’ve been interviewed on the Wall Street Journal, and New York Times, The 700 Club. How did you ultimately tap in to really those big national conglomerations and really tap into this big national momentum? Where did that start, and then how did that evolve over the last few years?

[0:34:50] IW: I would say I’m a super friendly person, and I love meeting new people. So I would go to different conferences, where I would go to the IFM or A4M, and just try to meet different people. Eventually, one of the people that I met, Dr. Alan Christianson introduced me to a mastermind group that was hosted by, and it still is by JJ Virgin called the Mindshare Collaborative. I ended up meeting a lot of amazing, like- minded individuals there. It was a great kind of networking opportunity where I got to meet my agent, Celeste Fine. She’s my book agent. 

Then, my first book was self-published, but I was able to get a few book deals. HarperOne was a wonderful partner to work with. Then, of course, the publishers have amazing connections. So then, they were able to get me some media exposure. I think it’s just taking advantage of every opportunity too. Whenever I meet people, I’m always offering to help people. I will tell you that like nine out of 10 times, people don’t follow up. When people are always wanting to help others, and especially people that are maybe, you know, they see somebody that is just getting started. They have experience in that, and they’re happy to share, because sometimes it’s like, you go through the process of discovery, and you’re just like, “Oh, wow. I figured this out, and I’m just happy to share with another person how to do, maybe make it a little less, less of a steep of a learning curve.

Whenever people would offer to help me with something, I would always follow up. I would say like, “Hey, we met here, and you said something about this. You gave me your business card.” Hello, it’s me. Let’s follow up. I think a lot of people don’t do that. But at least in my experience, and I think those are some of the things my business coaches have said, as well, as like, most people don’t follow up on the opportunities that are presented to them.

[0:36:44] CS: Mm-hmm. That’s amazing. Amazing. It goes both ways, right? Especially in such a virtual world, I feel like everything can be connected through LinkedIn, or Facebook. But if you’re reaching out one on one in email, with a specific instance in mind, I feel like that connection just holds so much more weight and carries you even further to be able to advocate for your business. That’s really meaningful. Thank you. Thanks for sharing.

The last thing I want to talk about is the book that you have coming up, so you’re talking primarily to an audience of pharmacists, instead of maybe patients or physicians. Hopefully, this is a group that you really connect with? What do you want to talk about with this book? How can this book help pharmacists and patients? And how can pharmacists use this just in their career? Or how can they share this information with those that they help?

[0:37:31] IW: Sure. My new book, adrenal transformation protocol is focused on the stress response, and burnout, and how to get somebody out of that burnout state. When I was going through pharmacy school, I kind of started learning about all these health conditions, and there was always a lifestyle component. I thought to myself, wouldn’t it be great if I was able to reach a person, and really coach them through having a healthy lifestyle, so I could prevent them having illness, and having to prevent taking medications, right? Or really feeling their best, and thriving with medications. 

The book is really focused on a syndrome or condition. It’s not a disease. It’s kind of like what happens when our body gets stuck in survival mode, and people will have really nonspecific symptoms. They’ll be anxious, they’ll be fatigued, they might have brain fog. They’ll feel wired or tired, so they might be – people that are having a hard time falling asleep at night, or they have on a refreshed sleep. These are your people taking Ambien. These are your people taking thyroid meds. These are your people taking antidepressants, anti-anxiety medications, where they don’t have a disease, they don’t have a disorder, they just feel off. Part of that is like, their lifestyle. Their lifestyle is stressful. My protocol focuses on getting them out of that stress response. We utilize this five sending targeted safety signals.

We do things like making sure that they’re connected with a circadian rhythm. Sometimes, taking an Epsom salt bath, and sleeping in a dark room can work better for people, and like they may not need to take Ambien, right? Or people with anxiety issues, sometimes eating more protein and fat throughout their day, that can be really stabilizing for their anxiety. A lot of times people will have these cortisol swings that can make them very, very anxious. That’s kind of the big focus of getting people out of that survival state. If you’re working 12-hour shifts, you’re not sleeping well at night, you’re eating like fast food on the go, and you’re kind of in that work state. There’s a chance that you’re in that survival mode too. And getting something like this worked into your routine, and trying it for your own self is where I would recommend. Then if it works well for you, then consider recommending it your patients. 

[0:39:54] CS: I was going to say, you’re probably actually speaking to a lot of pharmacists right now after COVID, or healthcare professionals in general that are living in this constant state of burnout that we hear about. So, you know, I originally asked the question for the patients, but pharmacists too at any other health care professional. This is going to be something that’s so meaningful to them, that they can hopefully take away a lesson or two. 

But I will kind of wrap things up now. I’ve just got a couple of quick questions just to ask about entrepreneurship in general, and some fun ways for you to reflect on your career journey so far. What has been the most memorable part or thing that has happened to you as a business owner and why?

[0:40:31] IW: I would say the most amazing things has been, when I meet people that have read my books. It’s usually at target when I have no makeup, and –

[0:40:41] CS: Of course.

[0:40:44] IW: And my son’s screaming for more toys. They will say, “Your book really changed my life. I used to be exhausted and overwhelmed. I had a lot of health issues, and your book changed my life.” That to me is so meaningful, to be able to help somebody from a distance, and meet beautiful people that have been helped by my work. That’s the most meaningful for me.

[0:41:12] CS: Yes. That, I mean, just speaks to who you are as a person too, right? It’s not some accolade. It’s not some interview. It’s not a big publication. It’s like at the root core of your business and what you’re looking for, it’s helping people. That’s so beautiful that you share that. That’s what really inspires you to keep going too. What is your favorite part about being an entrepreneur in general?

[0:41:31] IW: I think it’s kind of creating my own destiny and having the opportunity to be creative, and utilizing my talents to help others. Where I feel like I really love researching, and I love connecting the dots. That wasn’t always appreciated and more like, you know, you work at a corporate chain, and I’m like, “I think it would be really great if we restructured the business, and we offer this kind of service, and we did that.” They’re like, “Yes. I don’t think corporate is going to go for that, right?” That’s the thing. So just having that opportunity to be like, you know what, I really think my community needs to have access to something like this and being able to create it. Like being really customer-focused versus being like, I’m so focused on the corporate –

[0:42:19] CS: A metric whatever it is that the business needs. Yes. Yes. Definitely having that control is – you can change that at the drop of a hat when you’re in charge of your own company. It’s nice to be able to have that kind of power so quickly. 

Then the last question I’ve got, one piece of advice for anyone that’s contemplating a non-traditional pharmacy path.

[0:42:38] IW: Huh. I think it’s a great idea to find something that you’re very passionate about, and something that you really, really enjoy. Going in that direction, so perhaps, if you’re like writing, there’s like medical writing opportunities, very traditional ones. But then also like bloggers, so you can become a professional blogger. Some of them make more money than pharmacists, or you can be hired as a writer for professional blog. I know there are blogs that have pharmacist on staff that do their writing for them. Following your passions, and following what kind of sparks for you, I feel like that would be a great direction to go. Because, I mean, if you want it to create your own business, and if you want it to go that direction – people say like, with the pharmacy, you can kind of clock in and clock out. It’s not like that. When you have your own business, you really have to care for it in every aspect of it.

It better be something that you really, truly believe in, and that you’re passionate about. Otherwise, it’s like, if you just kind of focus on like, “Oh, I’m going to do this thing, and it’s going to make me lots of money.” Then you’re like, “Wow, I thought carpet cleaning was going to be the thing. but it turns out that carpet cleaning is just not my thing, or whatever it is.” I feel like pharmacists were very analytical. I think that’s such a huge plus. At the same time, we want to focus on connecting with that other part of our brains too, that helps us realize like, what are we passionate about? Where can we make a difference? And kind of doing the things that maybe other people aren’t willing to do and creating opportunities. 

I think one piece of advice I would give is, when I was first approaching agents with my book, a lot of them were like, “Oh, you’re a pharmacist, you’re not a doctor.” I don’t know if we could publish this. And I was like, “Okay, I’m going to self-publish it.” It’s sold over 100,000 copies. It was the first self-published book to make the New York Times, something to that. I was just like, I just need to get this message out, and I need to get people – I already knew the target audience because it was me. So other people might want to do a better analysis than I did. But definitely, if you’re a part of your target audience, that makes things a lot easier. And if you’re passionate about functional medicine, if you have your own transformational story of how it changed your life, or something that changed your life, that you’re willing to get behind, I think that could be a great opportunity, right?

[0:45:13] CS: Yes. That ultimately is what’s going to carry you throughout the tough times in your business. Because, like you said, it’s not a traditional clocking-in and out anymore. You’re in control of your own destiny, which is so great, but you’re also in control of your own destiny when things are bad. So being able to really go back to the core of why you started what you did will have a really meaningful return in the long run. I’m so happy that you took the time to be with us today. You are so well-rounded, and so well-spoken, and have such an amazing amount of experience to speak from. Where can the audience find you if they want to get in touch with you? What’s the best way to do so?

[0:45:47] IW: Sure. My website is thyroidpharmacist.com. My Instagram is @izabellawentzpharmd. Then, my books are available on Amazon, and Barnes & Noble, wherever fine books are sold.

[0:46:00] CS: Amazing. You can be a household face to anyone who’s in the audience today. You could have Dr. Izabella Wentz’s book in your home at any point in time. So we’re excited for your next book to come out. I just want to say thank you again, for taking the time to speak with us. I think this is really going to resonate with a lot of listeners, not only about the unique opportunities, and niches that are available for you to step into as a pharmacist. But you are just a perfect example of how far you can take your success, and how you can span into different areas of business, and still remain successful, and mentally sane, and still be a normal, great human being. 

That’s really just excelling, I feel like in every aspect of your career. So thank you again for taking the time to be here. We will leave a lot of those connections to Dr. Wentz’s website and her products in the show notes.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:46:48] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists in the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% downpayment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time homebuyers and has no PMI on a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage.

To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, and to get started with the pre-approval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacists.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacists.com/-loan. As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide, and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog post, and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates publish. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 304: How This Pharmacy Entrepreneur Helps Pharmacists Transition Into Their Careers in Canada


Havalee Johnson, pharmacist and Founder of Immigrant PharmAssist, shares how and why she made the move from Jamaica to Canada, how her business helps immigrant pharmacists transition into their careers in Canada, and her business goals.

About Today’s Guest

Havalee is a Jamaican immigrant in Canada. She holds dual pharmacist registrations in both countries and has a combined 8 years of practice experience. Feeling the need for growth and expansion in her life and career, Havalee successfully pursued her pharmacist licensure in Canada, completely self-sponsored, and moved from Jamaica to Canada at the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic in early 2020. She seamlessly transitioned and integrated into the Alberta healthcare system where she practices as a clinical pharmacist. Havalee is people-centric and multi-passionate and loves to help, empower and inspire others. Noting the myriad of challenges encountered by pharmacists’ peers and colleagues who have been unsuccessful in their many attempts to transfer their licenses to Canada, Havalee is on a mission to support and assist as many immigrants as possible. Through her business Immigrant PharmAssist, she helps international pharmacist graduates (IPGs) successfully navigate and accelerate through the licensure process so that they can smoothly transition into their lives and careers while thriving as newcomers in Canada.

Episode Summary

Havalee Johnson is a pharmacist in Alberta, Canada, and her new company, Immigrant PharmAssist, focuses on helping fellow pharmacists transition to a pharmacy career in Canada. After explaining why she stepped into a career in pharmacy, Havalee gives details on her community pharmacy experience, why commitment is one of her most important values, and the financial strategy she implemented to make the move from Jamaica to Canada. Havalee then opens up about what she wishes to accomplish with PharmAssist, whether pharmacies in Canada and America are going through the same struggles, common misconceptions that she encounters about moving to Canada, and where her business needs to be in the next three years for her to consider it a success. 

Key Points From the Episode

  • A warm welcome to today’s guest, pharmacist and entrepreneur, Havalee Johnson. 
  • Havalee’s background in pharmacy, including where she trained and her first job after school. 
  • The community pharmacy experience that made her enroll in pharmacy school. 
  • Why the John Assaraf quote about commitment resonates with Havalee and her life’s journey. 
  • Havalee’s reasons for immigrating to Canada. 
  • Her financial strategy for moving to Canada, and her unique relationship with money.
  • The problems that she is trying to solve with her business PharmAssist. 
  • Why Canada is an attractive destination for pharmacists to consider. 
  • Whether pharmacies in America and Canada are experiencing the same challenges. 
  • Common misconceptions that aspiring pharmacists have about moving to Canada. 
  • Where Havalee wants her business to be in three years to consider it a success. 
  • The mindset shift that has had the biggest impact on her life since moving to Canada. 
  • What Havalee does to reenter herself when she feels overwhelmed and out of focus.

Episode Highlights

“I’m a very committed person. And it’s not just in my professional life, it’s in every area of my life. If I have an appointment with someone, I’m going to make that commitment; I will show up for the occasion. If I have to do something, I just get it done.” — Havalee Johnson [08:47]

“When other people are having challenges or they have this sort of mindset that things will not work out, it’s because their level of commitment is not in alignment with what they think they truly want.” — Havalee Johnson [09:18]

“There’s so much wealth and information tied up in knowledge. It is very indispensable.” — Havalee Johnson [18:05]

“I worked, I saved, I bought the things that I needed to buy. I didn’t focus on the things that I wanted. It’s called delayed gratification. A lot of us know about it but we don’t subscribe to it.” — Havalee Johnson [18:40]

“It is not a matter of resources, it’s a matter of being resourceful.” — Havalee Johnson [27:39]

“I’ve embraced the fact that if I want to get to where I want to go, I need to do things differently and I have to invest in me. And not just investment in terms of monetary investment, but invest in my mindset, in up-leveling my mindset.” — Havalee Johnson [34:23]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

EPISODE 304

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrick here, and thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I welcome to the show, Havalee Johnson, a pharmacist-entrepreneur from Jamaica, who helps pharmacists transition into their careers and thrive as newcomers to Canada. During the show, we discuss why she decided to move away from her family and hometown in Jamaica to live and practice some 2,000 plus miles away in Canada, some of the biggest misconceptions that folks have about moving to Canada as a licensed healthcare professional and the steps that she took financially to pay off her student loan debt, her car, accumulate savings, and to ultimately fund the move and transition to Canada.

Now, before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 280 households in 40-plus states. YFP planning offers fee-only, high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Havalee Johnson.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:29.4] TU: Havalee, welcome to the show.

[0:01:30.6] HJ: Hey Tim, thank you for having me. 

[0:01:33.1] TU: Really excited to follow up on the conversation from a couple of weeks ago to share what you shared with me, which is a really cool career journey and I think an inspiring story for many with the work that you’re doing now with pharmacists. We’ll get to that here in a little bit.

Let’s start with your career journey. What led you into the profession of pharmacy, where did you do your pharmacy training, and what was your first job out of school?

[0:01:56.1] HJ: Oh, that’s interesting. So interestingly, my first job, I will start with that one, my first job was in a pharmacy, that I think propelled me into my career being a pharmacist because I never wanted to be a pharmacist growing up. So my back story is that I was born and raised in Jamaica.

I lived in Jamaica for pretty much my entire life until I moved to Canada at the start of 2020, and that’s where I also did my training in Jamaica, at the University of Technology. I did my undergrad studies with my bachelor of pharmacy degree. So it’s interesting that I never thought of pharmacy, it wasn’t on my radar.

But as a student in high school, we were required to do some voluntary work prior to graduating and it so happened that I volunteered at the hospital’s pharmacy. So that was my first introduction to pharmacy but I never thought anything of it then. But after I completed six form, which is the equivalent of community college. In Jamaica, you can go to six form if you’re in high school. 

You do your A-level studies and then you move into university. One of my colleagues was like, “My mom was saying pharmacy is a cool profession and all this stuff.” I was like, “Pharmacy? No.” I actually wanted to become a linguist. I was the Spanish student, I was the math student, and I did a mixture of the sciences and the arts. But as I’ve told you before, Tim, when we met, that I’m very multi-passionate and a multi-potential. 

So I could just basically segue from pharmacy into just about anything, which to me that right now is really exciting. I started my pharmacy career in Jamaica where I practiced for five years before moving to Canada, where I interestingly transferred my pharmacist license and I practice as a pharmacist in Canada as well.

[0:03:45.1] TU: What I like about what you just shared there, Havalee, is that pharmacy is a part of your story, it is not the only story, right? So it’s an important part of the journey, you’re obviously helping other pharmacists but you know, you mentioned you can pivot in different directions. We’ll talk about the value of diversification here in a little bit and if I heard you correctly, it was a hospital experience that led you into pharmacy school. But you would end up practicing in community for a while, is that correct?

[0:04:11.0] HJ: Yeah. So after high school, so we had financial challenges growing up and my mom was basically a single parent and my sister went to nursing school prior to me going to pharmacy school, and she was like, “I can’t afford to send you both to university at the same time. So you have to work for a year.” And I was like, “No way, I’m not working.” Because for me, school was the only thing that I knew and actually, I found my value and my education. 

As I told you from my back story that I never felt worthy, and I was told growing up that I was ugly. So, I just buried myself in academics. So when my mom told me I had to work prior to going to university, I was crushed. And I thought she was actually kidding but she was serious. So she went and got me a job basically. She made recommendations because she loves to talk about her children and she found a pharmacy owner. 

She was like, “My daughter, she’s very brilliant, she’s interested in starting in pharmacy.” I did not want to go to work in a pharmacy. I wanted to go to university and I did an application to the pharmacy owner. That’s an interesting part of my story, we’ll have to talk about that another time, but it was my penmanship that was the hook. Like, my penmanship is really great, if I may say so myself.

So the owner saw my penmanship and he’s like, “I need to meet this person” and so I interviewed. My personality and I fit right into the pharmacy setting. I worked there for 15 months as a pharmacy assistant. So that was my first introduction to business as well because I got to do a little bit of cashiering, I did the OTC stuff, I got to do account reconciliation, I got to do just about every little thing in the pharmacy. 

So I was like a floater and I worked there, but the impression that was left upon me by the pharmacist, who was the chief pharmacist at the time, her name is Alicia. Alicia, she was very impressionable. She was very proficient. She was very professional and I like the way she dealt with the parents, and that was my inspiration for going to pharmacy school. I wanted to emulate her and I was like, “Wow, this is really nice.” I enjoyed my 15 months there and I apply for pharmacy school. 

Interestingly, I applied for pharmacy school prior and they didn’t have any space and they’ve gotten a letter, an email, a letter saying that I didn’t meet the qualification requirements. I reapplied the following year and I got through but all they needed to tell me was that they didn’t have any space. They didn’t have the capacity but I applied, I reapplied because I’m not the person who gives up easily. With the same credentials, I got in and then I had a whale of a time. 

I suffice to say, I mentioned earlier that we had financial challenges and then the pharmacy was how I got through university. My mentor, my support system came through the pharmacy and that was how my accommodation was paid for. That was how my books were taken care of, that was when I got my first laptop.

I was 20 years old when I got my first laptop and just looking back now, it’s amazing to see how far I’ve come since then. Yet, that’s how I got through pharmacy school and I mentioned my friend Alicia the pharmacist, every single month that she got her salary, she sent me some pocket change, every single month, and I just feel so blessed.

[0:07:32.9] TU: Let’s make sure Alicia hears this episode, we’ll have to share it with her as you give a shout-out to her. But one thing that really stood out to me when you and I talked a couple of weeks ago is, you know, I have the opportunity to talk with different pharmacists, pharmacy owners, entrepreneurs all across the country every week, which is an incredible part of the job and the work that I have and doing the podcast. 

But something really stood out about our interaction. I think it was your mindset, it was your passion, your enthusiasm, your resilience, you described that a little bit, your optimism, it’s contagious. And you shared recently on LinkedIn a quote by John Assaraf. You said, “If you’re interested, you will do what’s convenient. If you’re committed, you’ll do whatever it takes.” Tell us more, why does that quote resonate with you and resonate with your own journey?

[0:08:23.3] HJ: It absolutely does. Thank you for bringing that up. I tend to forget the things that I put out there sometimes because I’m just, you know, going from what’s inside that I wanted to share. But again, I buried myself in my academics and I found that for me, things just seemed so easy. And it’s just when persons are approaching me and asking, “How did you do this, how did you accomplish this?” that I realized that I was a very committed person. And it’s not just in my professional life, it’s in every area of my life. 

If I have an appointment with someone, I’m going to make that commitment, I will show up for the occasion. If I have to do something, I just get it done. So there are no entrances and even if there are obstacles along the way, it doesn’t prevent me from going ahead because I’m so committed to whatever task it is that I have in front of me, whatever commitment that I’ve made. So, when other persons are having challenges or they have this sort of mindset that things will not work out, it’s because their level of commitment is not in alignment with what they think they truly want. 

So I thought that quote was fitting for the post that I did. I didn’t realize that it had gone over on to your platform as well. So thank you for the reminder, but I’m actually very committed and it makes the process much easier. It makes things — like, you don’t focus on the problems when you’re committed, you find creative solutions, and one problem has more than a thousand solutions if we were to go through and think about it logically.

[0:10:01.2] TU: Yeah, I mean, mindset really matters, right? I think that’s what you’re alluding to there and you could have two people that are facing a very similar problem but how they approach it and how they receive that challenge can be night and day. I had a chance to talk with Lauren Castle recently on the podcast, who is the founder of The Functional Medicine Pharmacist Alliance, and she talked about a book that its purpose is not a side hustle. 

Meaning, what you said is, we bring our purpose and our intentionality to every single interaction, every single day. Now, easier said than done, right? And I often wonder, “Hey, what would the day look like as a parent, as a father, as a business owner, what would it look like if I did that every moment?” But such a good reminder. 

Let’s talk about your transition to Canada. So you mentioned your upbringing in Jamaica. After pharmacy training, you worked a little over five years in community practice and then ultimately, you make a bold decision to move 2,000 plus miles to Canada, away from your home country, your family, your friends, your professional network. Why, what led you to that decision?

[0:11:07.0] HJ: I just don’t, it just came out of nowhere. I think Canada for me signified not security, because there’s not security anywhere, but Canada had some of the things that I desired as an adult. For example, growing up, our healthcare system is not the best. I’m not here to criticize our healthcare system but I lost my dad through him having health challenges going through dialysis, kidney failure, we couldn’t afford the dialysis.

I recognize that in order for me to serve people, I need to be healthy and I need to have that access. I’m not focusing on being ill but if things were to happen, if things were to hit the ceiling, I want to know that I have the accessibility. Also, when I completed pharmacy school, I got a statement for three million Jamaican dollars for my student loan debt.

I was like, okay, I didn’t come from the typical middle-class or upper-class family that had the financial means to send me to school. I had that. I was like, “Okay, I need, when I start my family, for my children to have access to work less education.” That was one of, again, these things were my deep why’s. Why I decided Canada.

Canada is underpopulated and they love bright young minds. I should just try for Canada and I had that thought when I went into the pharmacy. The first pharmacy I worked in after I got my license, my boss actually, they were selling the pharmacy and they were like, “Are you interested in buying?”

I’m like, “No, I’m on my way out of here.” I just told her, “I’m on my way out of here.” That was 2015. I didn’t know how, I didn’t have any connections. At that time, I had persons telling me I needed to go back to school and here I am, in three million dollars worth of student loan debt, now I’m at the phase in my life where I think I need to acquire things, which no, in retrospect, I didn’t need to acquire things. I need to acquire experiences instead. 

So I had Canada in mind and I made it happen. I was committed, I did whatever it took. I had the two jobs. I was trying to be very savvy with my finances because again, we had the challenges of not having things that other children had that you probably, why you would have had but no, I’m like, it’s okay. I didn’t really need them but the mind of a child is totally different from the mind of an adult.

When you’re a child, you’re very impressionable and we have very receptive minds but as an adult, you know that you might need to be receptive as well as fertile and the things that we allow into our spaces has to be totally different from the focus we had when we were much younger. 

So, I had Canada in mind and I’m like, “Okay in Jamaica, you get two months maternity leave when you start your family” and I was like, “That’s no time for you to nurture and care for an infant” and I’m like, “Okay, Canada, you could get up to a year as maternity leave” and also the scope of practice. 

I was frustrated at times, so I had to do a year’s internship in the hospital after pharmacy school and I was frustrated with the way things were systemically, like the things that patient — I’m very passionate about patient care and I’m an advocate for people because I treat people the way I would want to be treated, the way I want my family members to be treated. And they have to go through too many hoops and hurdles to get even a registration number and a prescription, for example. These are things that I would have done differently but I’m not in administration.

I’m not in a certain position to implement those changes. So when I completed my internship, I said, “I cannot work with this system because it’s not in alignment with me.” And then going into community, I had so much autonomy and my boss’s wife is a pharmacist and my boss. They respected me, they allowed me to practice to my fullest scope but my scope was still very restrictive. 

If the doctor wasn’t available, I couldn’t fax, I could make changes to the prescription. I love that about Canada, because the scope of practice here is that much greater. You can adopt a prescription, you can prescribe for a minor ailment, you can order labs, you can see the patient’s actual lab results, and that to me was exciting and that was one of my reasons for wanting to move to Canada as well.

[0:15:29.1] TU: And when you take a bold move like that, whether it’s moving from Jamaica to Canada, whether someone decides they’re going to start a business, which you did that as well. We’ll talk about that here in a little bit. But any bold move I think often requires one to feel like they’re in a sound financial position to make that move with confidence, and I talk about this in the show all the time. 

If you’re starting a business, not that we need to have every single T crossed and I dotted with our financial plan, but we want to have some level of a foundation that we can approach that business with confidence, and not be having the stress and anxiety of personally not being where we need to be. So I ask that because, for you, you shared with me before that you paid off three million dollars in Jamaica debt from pharmacy, which was equivalent to about 30,000 in Canadian, is that correct?

[0:16:20.1] HJ: Correct.

[0:16:21.1] TU: Paid off a car, you accumulated savings, there is cost of moving, what was the strategy for you to get yourself in the financial position to be ready to make that bold move?

[0:16:33.6] HJ: Thank you for that question. I think that my relationship with money is very unique. I used to say that I don’t know how my mom makes more than a hundred cents out of a dollar because she did it, and I think I got some of that from her in terms of being very savvy about my finances. The minute I started working, I said I’m going to start saving towards this Canada journey, and that’s what I did.

I earned, I took care of my obligations. So in pharmacy school, we actually learned about the reducing balance method. I’d never done any business subjects, I never done accounting prior, I learned about the reducing balance method. I applied that to my student loan and my debt payoff but I also did it smartly. I also referenced my friend Alicia. She allowed me, whenever I needed to do any business transaction, not business but any personal related transaction if I wanted to travel to buy an airline ticket. 

She was the person that got the credit card print posts from. You use, you pay on time and in full so you don’t accumulate an interest, and then I just started learning that, “Okay, if I use it directly after the due date, I get at least 51 days to make that payment.” Because the date for the statement will come and then you’ll have time to pay. So I adopted that from Alicia, that was where it started initially and then I started reading the financial section of the local newspaper. 

There’s so much wealth and information tied up in knowledge. It is very indispensable and I did that, and using my credit card to pay down my student loan was a part of my strategy because I had a credit card that had cash back. So I would pay the student loan and I’d get back some of the money and I built up great credit. I honestly never checked my credit back in Jamaica, but I knew that my credit was great because I started out with a credit card of USD 100,000 in 2016 and by 2018, my credit limit increased to over a million dollars.

So I worked, I saved, I bought the things that I needed to buy, I didn’t focus on the things that I wanted. It was called delayed gratification. A lot of us know about it but we don’t subscribe to it . And just being very disciplined in my finances, paying my debts, honoring my financial obligations, doing everything that I needed to do, it allowed me to save and I also set up, I didn’t even know for sure but I invested in a life insurance investment policy. 

I just heard about this in financial advisor. I called him up and met with him, he explained some stuff to me, then it was just all his. I didn’t understand what were mutual funds, I didn’t know the jargons, I didn’t know what was going on behind the scenes but I knew I needed to make plans and preparation for my future. So I invested in a policy and I started saving every single month from my salary. 

I told myself, “This is my retirement plan” and over a period of time, it accumulated so much funds. I was like, “Whoa, this is amazing.” It is amazing to see the tiny steps that we take, and over time, we adapt quickly and I think that was a very big thing for me. But I think it really boils down to me being the disciplined person that I am with my finances. I have never paid any money for credit card interest while I work in Jamaica. Never. 

I paid on time, in full, and over a two-year period, I got back over USD 130,000 in cash back just by using my credit card.

[0:20:19.6] TU: It makes sense when you’re paying big student loan payments, right? And the cashback of that. So I’d like what you share. I think there’s a couple of things that really stand out there, your relationship with money and really, understanding what is that, where does that come from, our upbringing typically, what are the good things that we have a positive relationship with money, what are the not so good things. 

Being aware of that and then really, what I heard is a lot of discipline in setting your goals and being intentional with how you were going to achieve those goals, which obviously, allowed you to make some of the transitions and move that you did make. 

I want to shift gears and talk about the work that you’re doing through PharmAssist and as you say on LinkedIn, “I help pharmacists transition into their careers and thrive as newcomers in Canada.” 

So two questions for you here, what problem are you trying to solve with this business, and what benefits does living in Canada for pharmacists, that it may be an attractive option for people to consider? 

[0:21:17.0] HJ: Thanks for that question, Tim. So in my business, actually I just studied shortly a backstory, PharmAssist started off as a podcast but it was a podcast to help patients, because I wanted to use my voice that I wanted – 

[0:21:29.9] TU: I saw that, I found it, yes. 

[0:21:32.4] HJ: You did? I wanted to utilize my voice in a way that could be meaningful and impactful. I’ve always stayed away from public speaking, anything that required me to be in the spotlight. So, I started PharmAssist but I didn’t, at the time, know how to get in front of the right audience, but it was well working in pharmacy. I’ve noticed certain trends, I saw the frustration, I heard the stories. 

I’ve met several international pharmacists who were struggling and when I say struggling, in terms of transitioning into their careers in Canada. They’re already in Canada but their credentials have not been recognized. And if you have noted recently on my platform, I’ve been talking about decredentialization, having high credentials is not yet recognized. So you end up doing survivor’s jobs and so your income earning potential has been significantly diminished. 

So what I aim to do is to empower especially persons who are coming into Canada to let them know, “Hey, there is a possibility for you to transition smoothly into your career.” You can take an alternative route than coming to Canada as an international student, which is I believe one of the most expensive roads to come to Canada, or even coming and not having your degrees transferred, getting, passing your board exams. 

Getting your pharmacist license recognized so that you can continue in your practice to create impact but also to make an income so that you can have a higher standard of living. I successfully transferred my license and I started while I was working in Jamaica, because I was so fortunate I had the discernment to know that if I move to Canada prior to getting my license, I’m going to have to move into the fast lane, but also be doing menial jobs, low income, so I might end up burning out. 

I need to be doing maybe two or three jobs just so that I can survive because when you convert the dollar, it’s totally about being a millionaire in Jamaica. I’m a ten thousand-narian in Canada. A million Jamaican dollars is 10,000 Canadian. So it doesn’t stretch very far, especially with the cost of living. I wanted to help those international students who have the misconception that they need to first move to Canada and get their credentials transferred. 

But if their desires or they desire to move to Canada, there is a way for you to zone in focus on passing those exams and getting into practice because statistics show that it’s in the low 40s the amount of international students who pass the exams, the statistics are very low. I think, again, it’s because of lack of knowledge. People are not aware of the commitment that they need to make to pass the exam.

The investment that they need to make to get through the programs that they need to go through so that they can, and I believe every single pharmacist across the globe, they are capable of going into their careers in Canada successfully, it’s just that they don’t know the right strategy. They need someone to maybe hold them accountable, someone to show them what pathway they need to take, what direction they need to go. They just probably need like a human compass and I think that’s where I stepped in. 

[0:24:55.8] TU: They need a guide, right? They need someone that will help them along. I’m curious, our listeners know very well that there’s many challenges right now in community retail practice in the United States in terms of burnout and expectations and staffing. There’s obviously a lot of work that’s being focused in advocacy on that. 

Because of that, are you seeing interest from pharmacists in the US potentially moving to Canada as well, or are those same challenges we see in community retail practice here in the US, are those very similar in Canada? 

[0:25:28.7] HJ: I have seen interest from pharmacists in the US who want to move to Canada for a myriad of reasons including — it’s like in the US, where it’s state-to-state practice, each state they have their own scope of practice or their own regulations. It’s the same thing in Canada with provinces, but a province like Alberta where I was practicing, we have a wide scope of practice. 

So it may be for the scope of practice, it may be to escape the burnout. The thing about pharmacy practice in Canada as well, because immigration, and people are coming in full force. A lot of people are migrating to Canada then the workload becomes that much heavier as well. So there is burnout being experienced by pharmacists in Canada as well but it depends on the settings. 

It depends on whether you’re working with a corporation or if you are working for an independent, or you could be working in just about any setting. But I don’t know if the challenges that are being faced in the United States if it’s that the same magnitude in Canada. Again, the cultures are very different, things are quite subtle here and maybe Canadians, they don’t want to seem as if they’re complaining. 

But a lot of the challenges that people are experiencing in the US I can say that, from my own experiences, that some of them are similar in Canada. It’s just that people are not advocating at the level that it’s been done in the US. 

[0:26:59.4] TU: Havalee, as you are talking to people that might be thinking about making the transition as a pharmacist to Canada, I suspect you hear from a lot of folks that their interested but they may have some type of misperception about what that transition may look like. Is there a common one that typically folks have that might hold them up in their journey? 

[0:27:18.4] HJ: Yes, Tim. So one of the most common misconceptions that persons have in terms of transitioning into their careers in Canada, they believe that they don’t have the money to get it done. They don’t think they have the financial needs. And I am here to tell them that, like my coach said to me, it is not a matter of resources, it’s a matter of being resourceful. So a lot of these folks who, they will say, “I am going to pursue the school road, I am going to apply for school.”

And this is where the misconception comes in, because it is more expensive for you to apply as a student than it is to apply to transition into your career as a pharmacist, and even to move to Canada as a pharmacist, as a skilled educated professional. And this is not limited to pharmacy alone. I’ve had just today a connection on LinkedIn sent me a message saying, “Hey, I came to Canada as a student and it lasted for three months and then I just spent my six months and I returned home because it was so expensive.” 

The connection just said, “I spent 15k.” And if you are moving to Canada as a skilled, educated professional and you are a single person, you need about 14k to show the government proof of funding, about 14k. If you come as a student for one semester for three months, that’s 15k. You will not see that money again. The money for a year of residency, you will get to keep that money. 

So the misconception is, “I need to come as a student, ride along on the struggle bus, and then struggle to get my credentials transferred, and then five years later, I’m still not registered.” I’ve had a colleague in pharmacy who has been in Canada for 10 years and still unregistered. I’ve had a colleague who’s been in Canada for four years and still unregistered. Another misconception if I may is that the exams are too hard. 

Because the statistics are low, it doesn’t mean that it’s not passable. You just need to have a strategy, you need to have a plan, and you need to have your commitment. You need to have these things in place and once you pursue the exam, it’s kind of like going to pharmacy school, there’s no difference. You go through the exam, you pass your exams, you can transfer your licenses. So those are two of the biggest misconceptions that I have had. 

[0:29:48.8] TU: Havalee, I am curious, since you are on the front end of this business journey, which I think many people will find refreshing hearing some of the early experiences you’ve had of starting the business. I’m curious, as you think out let’s just say three years as a marker, what does success look like for you three years from now? 

Personally, with the business, I mean, I’m sure there is a lot of overlap there but as you’re at the beginning of this and obviously, you’re in the day-to-day, you’re kind of in the weeds, you’re thinking about growing it. But I know when I have these conversations there’s often these feelings of, even if it’s not clear, I kind of see the vision of where things are going. What does that look like for you in three years? 

[0:30:26.5] HJ: In three years from now? Wow. I see myself running a very well-organized, fully-automated, technologically included business that merges healthcare with immigration. In three years, I see myself there. I see myself onboarding more people to solve the many problems that we have, whether it’s in the health system and also to help a lot of people to change their lives. The way immigration and moving to Canada has changed my life, I want that other person to have a similar experience and especially if they have a family. 

They will get that social support and also to help them to up-level in their finances. I could introduce them to Tim. I was like, “Tim is a financial pharmacist.” Yeah, so in three years from now, I can see myself positioning myself in the marketplace as the go-to person for any internationally educated pharmacist as well as persons who are interested in migrating to Canada. 

[0:31:29.8] TU: I love that. Here’s the reason why I asked that question, well one, I’m curious but two, as I talk with a lot of aspiring or early pharmacy entrepreneurs, I’m often encouraging them like you’re in the weeds, you’re building it, you’re wearing every single hat of the business. That’s what you need to do when you get started but it’s so important even if you don’t know exactly where things are going to go, because none of us do. 

This will evolve over time. It is so important to have even a fuzzy north star of what is this vision for a couple of reasons, one, that gives us the focus of, “Does the activities I’m working on, the products and services I’m developing, how I’m spending my time, does that line up towards that vision?” And obviously gives us clarity to the messaging that we have both for ourselves as well as externally. 

Then I think it also provides a really important source of motivation, right? Because something you just shared there highlights that so well. You said, “In three years I really see running a well-oiled technologically included business with a lot of automation that is focused on the intersection of immigration and healthcare.” Now, pharmacists moving and practicing in Canada, that can be one piece of that business, right? 

But the intersection of immigration and healthcare is a much bigger vision and obviously, you are taking a very important first step right now. So I love that you’ve thought about that. I think it is such a good example of what are the things that I am doing right now, the steps that I am taking, the efforts that I’m moving, the products and services I’m developing, and how does that align with where I want to see things going in three to five years, so really cool. 

Thanks for sharing. I want to wrap up by asking you two questions, which I have stolen from Tim Ferriss who ask some really great questions on his podcast. That first question is, in the last let’s say couple of years since you’ve made this transition, what new belief, behavior, or habit has had the most significant impact on you personally or professionally? 

[0:33:34.0] HJ: So over the last five years or let’s say ten years, let me just even say even three years, a lot has shifted for me both personally and professionally and I’ve had to embrace a new mindset, I’ve had to embrace a new philosophy and I’ve had to become a student. I have had to question my belief system and the things that I grew up knowing. I’ve had to unlearn a lot of the things, unlearn the belief that I wasn’t worthy enough, I wasn’t good enough. 

That there were limited supplies of everything out there when there actually is an abundance. I’ve had to retrain my brain and I’ve gotten into personal development. But one of the things that I’ve done most is embrace the fact that if I want to get to where I want to go, I need to do things differently and I have to invest in me. And not just investment in terms of monetary investment, but invest in my mindset, in up-leveling my mindset. 

So, I’ve had to surround myself with other women in business, in a community setting where there are people who are empowering you and inspiring you and not just settling for mediocre things. I’ve had to make that shift and I’m so grateful that I’ve had, again, the discernment to know that. If I see things going on a particular trajectory and they want a different outcome, then I can. I have the power within to change that direction, so yeah. 

[0:35:05.5] TU: That’s a really good one. I think it’s so important that we are aware of what are those external influences or the stories that we’re telling ourselves that are leading to some of those self-limiting beliefs and behaviors that we have. Well, one of the real examples of this, you probably see this all the time is you mentioned the 40% passage rate of that examination, right? 

I can almost assure you that if you talk with someone that does not know that number and you know, maybe they are confident about this transition, they’re feeling good about it, they’re confident in their abilities and all of a sudden, you throw that number on them like I am sure you can see the confidence and the demeanor change, and all of a sudden the ceiling comes down of what they think is possible. 

I think it is so important that we’re constantly examining where do these beliefs come from and why do I have this ceiling in my mind? We all have them, when we think about our goals over the next year even in 2023, even if we are challenged to think big, dream big, we all have a ceiling. It is just a really interesting question of like, “Where does that come and why is that there?”  Gay Hendricks talks about this in The Big Leap, which is a great book that I kind of – 

[0:36:12.5] HJ: That’s the book that I just completed, just completed. 

[0:36:14.5] TU: Oh cool. 

[0:36:15.6] HJ: Yes, talk about that ceiling and how when we get there, we tend to self-sabotage. I love that book, I love the concepts that it brings across. 

[0:36:25.7] TU: My second question for you Havalee here again, stealing this from Tim Ferriss is when you feel overwhelmed or unfocused, what do you do to refocus and get yourself back on the right path? 

[0:36:36.5] HJ: So, I tell people that I have a really short attention span but that’s not true. What I’ve come to realize is that I’m not focusing on the most important things that I need to get done, so I get distracted. I get sidetracked. Whenever I feel unfocused or overwhelmed, I first have to check my environment. What is it in my environment that I need to remove? What is it that I need to, what systems do I need to put in place? What habits do I need to reinstall? 

For me, I listen to Patrice Washington’s podcast, where she said, “Clutter is a physical manifestation of chaos in your mind.” I check my environment to see if everything is organized, what do I need to clear out. I also try to do some brain dump, I do write out the things that just free up my mental queue. I also do journaling and sometimes I do meditation, I don’t do it often enough. I know I need to get centered and get focused and get realigned and write out the things that are most important to me. 

What is it that I need to get done right now that’s going to have the greatest impact on the big goals that I have for myself and just to add to that, it’s funny that when I was operating in my imposter syndrome, that I felt fearless because I didn’t know that I had imposter syndrome. I was just smashing through goals and moving from one goal to the other and then when people were like, “Okay, so how did you do that?” 

I was like, “It’s no big deal” because I was just operating. But now that I am more centered and becoming more aware of who I am and what I bring to the table, I am smashing through my imposter syndrome and just showing up anyway and trying to de-identify. It will take some time but try to de-identify, I need to divorce imposter syndrome altogether so that I can operate in my greatness and operate in alignment. 

[0:38:38.5] TU: I love that reflection and I think the comments you have about clutter are really interesting. I found that as well that sometimes it needs to be a brain dump, sometimes it needs to be a physical organization of the space so that we can focus and align and get ourselves working on the thing that’s most important. 

Other times I have found that sometimes we’re not working on the most important task, because typically there’s some fear that might be underlying us wanting to lean into that. We’re working on something that’s maybe a little bit easier or not as significant or that fear doesn’t reside is kind of an escape route, that typically fear of failure, but it could also be fear of our identity or what other people think, fear of success, exactly, so. 

[0:39:20.2] HJ: I have experienced that myself. 

[0:39:22.6] TU: Yeah, an important question for folks to reflect on, if you find yourself often not focusing on perhaps the most significant or meaningful work that you could be doing, what’s driving that and if it’s fear, what’s behind some of that fear? So Havalee, this has been awesome as I knew it would be. Where is the best place that folks can go to learn more about you and to follow your journey? 

[0:39:44.8] HJ: Oh, absolutely. So I may be found on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook. I go by my actual name Havalee, surname Johnson. On Instagram, I’m @havalee_89. On Facebook, I’m Havalee Johnson and that is in fact my real name. I’ve had persons reach out to me like, “What is your real name?” I say that’s my real name. 

That it’s because a lot of persons have been scammed, a lot of persons have had encounters with people who are not authentic and so they’re questioning whether or not this person is real. Like out of nowhere Havalee showed up prior to March, April of 2022, I was a ghost on LinkedIn. I would not show up, I would not write anything, I would not advocate. 

If Tim had asked me to appear on his podcast, well, he wouldn’t have known me but if he just mysteriously came across me and say, “Hey, would you like to be on my show?” I’d be like, “No.” I have passed up important opportunities in the past. So I appreciate being on your platform, Tim. Thank you so much for having me and it was so great connecting with you on LinkedIn, that’s where it started. 

[0:40:53.2] TU: Thank you for saying yes and I hope folks will follow your journey. I’ve enjoyed it as well. So thank you for taking time to come on the show, I appreciate it. 

[0:40:58.7] HJ: Thank you for having me. 

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:41:00.0] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information on the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post, and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END] 

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YFP 289: Building Pricklee with Pharmacy Entrepreneur Kun Yang


Kun Yang, a pharmacist and Co-Founder & CEO of Pricklee Cactus Water, shares how and when he knew the entrepreneurial path was right for him. In this episode, he discusses the experience of being on Shark Tank, where he effectively navigated a negotiation with two sharks that led to a deal, and the most important skills he has had to acquire as an entrepreneur leading a growing company.

About Today’s Guest

Kun Yang is a recent dad and pharmacist-turned-CPG entrepreneur. He grew up in Canada but has spent his professional life in the United States, where he is building his business, Pricklee Cactus Water, with some incredible humans who want to make the world a better place.

Pricklee is on a mission to inspire people to be resilient like the cactus through health, happiness, and sustainability. The refreshing cactus waters are made from the drought-tolerant prickly pear cactus and packed with antioxidants, electrolytes, and vitamin C, with 50% less sugar than coconut water. It’s 100% refreshing, with 0% pricks.

Kun is passionate about brand building, CPG, leadership, founder stories, futurism, mental health, and all things wellness. He looks forward to connecting and learning from others that build businesses through conscious capitalism!

Episode Summary

This week on the YFP Podcast, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, welcomes fellow pharmacist and Co-Founder & CEO of Pricklee Cactus Water, Kun Yang, to the show. Highlights from this episode include hearing Kun talk about how and when he knew that an entrepreneurial path was right for him, the experience of being on Shark Tank, and the skills he has had to acquire on his entrepreneurial journey leading a growing beverage company. The discussion begins with Kun sharing his start in pharmacy, his pharmacy education, the moment he realized that a traditional pharmacy path might not be right for him, and the surprising story of how he got started as an entrepreneur. Kun speaks on how Pricklee came to be, his experience navigating negotiation with two sharks on Shark Tank, and ultimately getting a deal for Pricklee. With the added attention from the show, Kun shares how Shark Tank positively impacted the business in unexpected ways. He discusses the power of having a mentor, the skills needed to be a true leader, how he views leadership, and how he is cultivating a culture of growth in his company. Listeners will also hear an interesting parallel between parenting and entrepreneurial leadership. 

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. 

On this week’s episode, I welcome fellow pharmacist and the Co-Founder and CEO of Pricklee Cactus Water, Kun Yang. Highlights from the show include hearing from Kun about how and when he knew the entrepreneurial path was right for him, what the experience was like being on Shark Tank, where he effectively navigated a negotiation with two sharks that led to a deal, and the skills that he has had to acquire that have been most important to his entrepreneurial journey and leading a growing beverage company.

Now, before we jump into today’s show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 250 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized to the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. 

Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Kun, the Co-Founder and CEO of Pricklee Cactus Water.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:20] TU: Kun, welcome to the show. 

[00:01:21] KY: Glad to be here, Tim. Nice to see you again.

[00:01:23] TU: So we had an interesting crossing of paths through a mutual connection in the biopharmaceutical industry space, where we’ve done some personal finance education with some of the fellowship programs. You spent the early part of your career, before working on Pricklee, in an industry role. So let’s start there. Tell us about your career path into pharmacy, where you went to school, and what led you to going down that path of industry.

[00:01:50] KY: Yeah. So I graduated from the University of Maryland School of Pharmacy 2015. I have a lot of pride in my alma mater, and I think many people might relate to this. But it’s almost like the further removed you get, the more you realize how lucky really you were in that situation. But I had a chance to kind of go back this past year as the white coat speaker, and it just brought back a flood of just really incredible memories and just appreciation for just how difficult it is to be faculty and kind of lead the next generation of youth and just had a lot of proud moments to kind of know where we kind of came from in that space. 

But I kind of grew up all over the place. I mostly grew up in Canada, and I always knew that I wanted to pursue health and wellness and many different components and also had a very, I guess, just entrepreneurial mindset to begin with. So I think pharmacy really kind of attracted me because fundamentally so much of pharmacy as an industry has been built upon independent business. Just the kind of skills that are required to be successful, to be able to socialize, to connect with your patients and provide value and help them lead healthier and better lives and be that trusted partner really kind of just gravitated to that profession. 

As I entered pharmacy school, I think I realized that there was a lot of different ways that we could make an impact in society. Over time, as I learned more and more about all the incredible opportunities to affect population health and take all the skills that we were getting in pharmacy school and apply them in really creative ways, yeah, I just naturally gravitated towards more “nontraditional” roles. But I would just say that they were just roles that I think allowed us to flex additional skills that we didn’t know we had, and then eventually ended up pursuing a fellowship through MCPHS at Biogen in a sort of medical value-based outcomes type program, which is sort of a managed care-focused direction because I was very involved with AMCP and was very interested in the whole population, health management piece of that profession, going into graduation. Then through that, just really found myself appreciating and just developing a lot of incredible skills in the biotech pathway.

[00:03:57] TU: You and I talked maybe a week or two ago, and we’re talking about for those students that have that business or entrepreneur type of desire, I think the industry pathway is a natural one where there’s some exposure to that. But certainly, that’s still a step away from entrepreneurship and growing your own company, still a very different experience working within an organization, although, of course, less clinical and more business minded. 

I’m curious, before we talk about Pricklee specifically, was there a moment during your fellowship or perhaps a moment in your first job where you looked around and you’re like, “Man, this just isn’t for me. I’ve got this entrepreneurial itch. I’ve got this pharmacy degree. Maybe I’ve been down this pathway, but like I don’t see myself doing this for 30 years.”

[00:04:43] KY: I think there were a lot of moments. When I look back, it wasn’t like I think one specific. I mean, I do have a specific moment that I’ll share, but I think there were a lot of feelings that I think that felt familiar to me, even in that moment, that I can kind of trace back and say, “Okay, this kind of makes a lot of sense.” So the moment really was walking into – I just finished our fellowship, and programming had started at a new company with a spinoff of our existing fellowship business. I kind of just walked in and had really, really fallen in deep appreciation for the opportunity and the people that I was working with. 

But I think one of the days I kind of walked in, and I looked around, and this was still pretty early on in our journey, but something hit me that I had always thought that through all the different career changes and exploration of getting to that point that going this “non-traditional” path would have led me to move away from this feeling of “imposter syndrome” or feeling like everything that I was doing was actually getting more and more specific. It was because it was leading me to a point of clarity, right?

Really, over time, I realized that imposter syndrome and point of clarity had a lot to do with an understanding of who I wasn’t, as opposed to understanding of who I was. I think that’s something that probably a lot of us can relate to is growing up in your 20s and maybe sometimes early 30s, you have a lot of ideas of maybe what you don’t like to do, right? What are some of the things that don’t excite you? What are some of the general things that do excite you? But you may not really understand specifically why or what you’re really good at to allow you to succeed in those roles. 

Again, all those feelings led to that one moment I walked in and looked around in this open office setting. I was kind of like, “Man, there’s a lot of incredibly talented and smart individuals around me. And if I work really, really hard here for another 15, 20 years, I can really be like one of them.” These were at the time, again, all my heroes I look up to that kind of forged the pathway for us before. I guess it hit me in that moment that there wasn’t a specific role that I could look at and say like that is exactly in specific what I wanted to do. I think that that was my – I call it a quarter life crisis moment of really all that imposter syndrome bubbling and kind of blowing up all at once, realizing that, wait a second, how could I have done all this and pursued all this specificity, only to feel this still in this moment? There’s not much more specificity I could pursue. 

That was when it really kind of became an introspective question of like is there something outside of pharmacy that I could apply my skills to, still within the health and wellness space that we’re really passionate about, that I could find truth and clarity? 

[00:07:17] TU: Where do you attribute – Obviously, you have an entrepreneurial spirit and desire. You’re pursuing that with the work that you’re doing at Pricklee, and I suspect this may not be the first venture and the last one that you’re going to do. Where do you attribute that entrepreneur spirit coming from?

[00:07:33] KY: It’s a really good question. I think it is family-driven in many, many ways, right? I’m a first generation American. My father actually immigrated over from China when I was one and then moved over to Canada when I was three and a half. To see kind of his journey and where he came from, where it was a small farm town that was – He was the first person in his entire family lineage to graduate high school and then did do college and all that stuff, and it wasn’t like there were resources around him. 

So for him to kind of persevere and find a way through all that, pursue higher education, and then bring us over and provide, create a better life for his family, and then give us this opportunity then to live a really privileged life of education, of connectivity, of culture, of just growing up in North America, Canada, and the US, and really being shielded from a lot of that and realizing that, for me, a lot of the journey of getting to really, I guess, in many ways what I had initially idealize as the pinnacle of success, which was I think much more defined from a lower wealth generation value standpoint of like earning and salary and maybe comfort from a capitalistic standpoint. Getting to that point and realizing that it was much more than that, that was behind the growth that my father and sacrifices my father had made. 

To look at that journey that he went on as a pretty entrepreneurial one himself, I think I got a lot of that same sort of mentality of like, okay, this still feels like the great opportunity has been presented. How can you take this opportunity and truly make a bigger impact? And take that opportunity and say if you have that privilege, and you have the connections and maybe the skill sets and the network to do more, to truly make an impact on society. Can you look introspectively and find authenticity in that journey to make that impact as positive and helpful as possible? So that’s really kind of where I think the initial energy came from.

[00:09:31] TU: I love that, Kun. One of the things I’ve been thinking about a lot lately, and I think your alma mater could give them some credit, is light years ahead in terms of a focus around entrepreneurship and nontraditional career paths. They put some specific efforts in that area to really be intentional and brand themselves as such. But I’ve often thought like we recruit for someone who wants to be a pharmacist and that clinical type of a mindset and then hope we can apply some entrepreneurial principles on top of that. I almost wonder if we need to flip the script in that like you recruit people that have an entrepreneurial mindset or interest, and then pharmacy gets overlaid on top of that. It’s just a totally different shift in how someone is thinking. 

I think what’s interesting about your journey, and I think there’s a lot of people that may feel some of that imposter syndrome or feel that tug and pull of like, “Hey, I have an interest in this or that, but my identity is in I have a PharmD, or I’ve done a fellowship, or I’ve done two years of residency.” We know the reality of the sunk cost fallacy of, “Hey, I’m $200,000 in, right? And I’m not going to pivot or take that risk.” So I just think there’s a really neat opportunity for our academic institutions to be able to take this up and see what we can do in terms of some of the disruption that’s happening in our profession and how can we, especially as we train the next generation of pharmacists, be a part of that. I think to Maryland’s credit, they’re making some progress in this area, which is pretty cool.

[00:10:56] KY: I think that that’s a very, very, very astute point. I would just say like still early on in my journey, so I imagine that my view on this and perspective will change over time. But I would say that what I found in our in our journey, where we’ve kind of really broken into multiple industries now and almost from the bottom up and try to find value in that, it really comes down to aligning the journey to some core set of values that are intrinsic to an individual. I think that that’s something that a lot of institutions have maybe not done effectively. I think, obviously, professionalism, and I think core behaviors of what a profession should look and act like are definitely important. 

But I do think that sometimes a lot of students come into these professions with personal values that are maybe extremely different, right? These personal values are often shaped by households and maybe by your initial friend network, right? I guess the challenge of this is then if most people are within this way of, this mindset of thinking you go through life, really kind of reflecting the same values that you’ve kind of been around since you were a kid, right? Your parents’ values and the friends that you’ve kind of grown up with. 

It’s really hard to break free from that, right? Because as you get more and more within a bubble of people in terms of the work that you do, your interests become even more specific. The challenges that you own become more specific. It’s probably very hard for an average pharmacist to relate to like the challenges that a construction worker, for example, would relate to day-to-day. So naturally, these worlds don’t collide as often as you would see, right? So what does that really result in? That results in people finding answers to like these bigger questions of like how do we become more entrepreneurial? Or what can we do with our pharmacy professions? 

They find answers amongst their direct community. Why is that challenging? Well, it’s challenging because a lot of people that go into higher education, they come from families where maybe their parents didn’t do this, right? Or maybe this is now a wealth generation they’ve entered making pretty healthy salaries, where their parents didn’t have that luxury, right? So what happens is you’re not asking maybe your reference point of like what success looks like is anchored to people that have never had the type of wealth opportunity that you do now. So to find answers to the questions that like, well, what’s next? If we’ve hit our milestones of getting your house or like having children and doing these things that seemed like, pretty far reaching milestones previously, and you’re starting to trend in that direction, where it’s pretty feasible, then you start thinking, “Well, what’s next right?” Then the answers often become, okay, invest your money, do these things, and grow your wealth. 

Then simultaneously, alright, who else would you ask? You ask your friends and your colleagues, who, again, were raised by the same kind of parents that you’ve been around. So it’s really hard to get answers to these bigger questions of how do you make more out of the way that our institutions are set up when a lot of the influence of what the values are in society are really limited to the same influences and values that you were raised with, right? So what I found is when you want to answer a question as big as what’s next, ask people that have done those things. So a lot of the mentors that I’ve met in my life that have made these tremendous impacts, I mean, they’ve built and exited companies, global companies. They’ve done these things. Time and time and again, you start to realize that oftentimes the value system changes from one of just wealth creation to one where you start to realize that your wealth is really a set of tools that you can leverage to create value for others and to create not just a better life for yourself but for your profession, for people around you, for anyone, right? 

I think as you meet more and more successful people that have gone through that journey, you really feel that, and it’s not only just really inspiring to see that that’s really what people stand for at the end of the day, but that that’s what the world and the universe tends to reward in the long term.

[00:15:04] TU: It’s such a great point, and I’m reading right now Hangry by the GrubHub founder. It’s a great book. It reminds me a lot of Shoe Dog. It’s another great read on kind of an entrepreneurial startup story, that one, obviously, of Nike and Phil Knight. But he talks about in the GrubHub journey like his initial goal was like do this thing to be able to pay off student loans. Then it gets to this point where he raises $31 million, and he gives up a stake of a company, and then it’s like, “Oh, wow. This got like really real. And, obviously, I’m now exceeding that goal, and there’s on to something else.” 

Then, obviously, at some point, he exits what will be a multibillion-dollar company, and then he’s kind of asking this question of like, alright, that wealth and, obviously, paying off that debt was a very small goal that wealth was achieved. But like I’m trying to find my identity back of like who am I, what do I want to be, what do I want to be my legacy and my contribution. 

So let’s shift gears and talk about Pricklee. For those that aren’t familiar with Pricklee yet, and I hope they will become soon, if they’re not already or they haven’t tried the product, what is it, and how did the idea come to be?

[00:16:07] KY: Yeah. No, it’s definitely an interesting story. So Pricklee is a cactus water. It’s a delicious, refreshing cactus water made from really the most sustainable and resilient plant on the planet, the prickly pear cactus. It’s packed with electrolytes, antioxidants, vitamin C, that just offers superior and natural hydration. It’s about half the sugar and calories of a coconut water, and it’s really just good in smoothies by itself, mixed drinks, and really any which way you want to have it. So that’s really what Pricklee is. 

We actually created Pricklee right in the middle, again, of our fellowship. Our co-founder, Mo, grew up in Lebanon, and his grandma used to make prickly pear mixed drinks, prickly pear just smoothies, prickly pear just hydration beverages all summer long. It’s his favorite thing going up with him and his siblings. So one day, when he was shopping at our local grocery store, and he saw prickly pears in the market, he was blasted with nostalgia. He’s like, “I have to bring this back to my friends.” So he shared it with us. We were just blown away by the taste. 

Then being in health care, we look at the benefits. That was really, really interesting as well. I think over time, we just realized like this is such an amazing opportunity to take a health and wellness platform, introduce an ingredient that meant something, significant to one of us, and then find ourselves in this, and that journey of really discovering authenticity through the creation of Pricklee, and figuring out that we could leverage the platform of the cactus to inspire people to be resilient. To really promote health, happiness, and sustainability became really what our core mission was. Then over time, really that mission manifested itself into a company that we now are privileged enough to be able to support and to grow every single day.

[00:17:47] TU: So I want to talk about your Shark Tank experience. You and your co-founder, Mo, also a pharmacist, appeared on Shark Tank, season 13, episode 22. We’ll link to it in the show notes, if folks want to go back and watch it. You were looking for $200,000 for 5% equity, which equates to a $4 million valuation. I want to talk about the numbers. But first, I want to hear about the experience. What was it like walking through those doors, and how did you prepare for that opportunity? Because as I’ll ask you in a moment, there were some instances in your responses with the sharks that it was clear you had done a lot of preparation. So I’m curious to hear how you went about that preparation. 

[00:18:28] KY: Yeah. So we’d spent almost two years just sort of beta testing our product at farmer’s markets, figuring out how this whole industry worked. It was really, really something that just blew our minds because of how complex the industry was and the different aspects that went into it from D2C e-commerce, to retail, to supply chain, to operations, to production, to sales and marketing. I mean, there’s just so much to uncover, and it took us some time to really grapple around that. So we didn’t launch until February 2021. 

Something to note of that is, I think, pharmacists and STEM individuals, specifically, are fantastic entrepreneurs because testing is so ingrained in our DNA. So we really went through it pretty – Really kind of taking our emotion out of it as much as we could. But in any case, we launched in February of ‘21. Within the first week, we’d run these Facebook ads and the production studio at Shark Tank, at SEMA, and these ads. So they reached out and were like, “Hey, you guys should apply.” We thought it was a complete scam. We had no idea this was real thing. But we pursued it. Next thing you knew, we had this gigantic application. It was like 40 pages. I mean, we were just spewing out all aspects of our life in this application.

This ended up being like a 16-month process from when we first [inaudible 00:19:44] to when we’d been filmed and then when we finally aired the following May. So it was probably the longest kept secret of our lives. When we started getting through the process, the team assigned us a production staff that really helped us kind of frame the pitch, prepare us for the kind of conversations that we’re going to have. A lot of that was just, again, an ongoing 16-month journey that eventually led to the air date on Mother’s Day weekend, actually May of 2022.

[00:20:15] TU: I’m curious. Yesterday, I was listening to a podcast of the founder of 1-800-GOT-JUNK?, and he had talked about a moment in their business, which it took them eight years to get to a million dollars in revenue, and now they’re north of $600 million a year. So a very patient slow growth and then, obviously, more of an explosion of that over time. But he talked about this instance where, after a lot of persistence, they got on to Oprah, a huge opportunity, couldn’t hire enough people to have the phones ready after that went live. But they didn’t have a same experience when they went on The Ellen Show. It was actually very quiet after that, and part of that had to do with, obviously, people can more easily get in touch now than they could when they went back on a previous show with Oprah. 

But I’m curious how defining of a moment was that? Or was that not in terms of that goes live, and the business changes?

[00:21:07] KY: Yeah. I mean, I definitely think it was it was a defining moment. I think a lot of companies find a lot of luck in different components. You kind of have to. I mean, timing luck, it’s in every company’s journey. Shark Tank has manifested as one of those things for us, for sure. We had been on this like interesting media tour. Leading up to Shark Tank, we had actually filmed TODAY Show in August, right before we had filmed Shark Tank in September. That was a pretty big deal. I mean, Al Roker drinking your product on air. I mean, sharing your story. We got some texts about it. But it wasn’t comparable to the Shark Tank experience. 

I mean, I think there’s something societally and culturally relevant about Shark Tank in the connection that every person has with that being like some pinnacle of entrepreneurship and a goal, and a milestone I think a lot of people will look for in starting businesses. So I think that there’s something innately exciting about it. Still to this day, anytime people see our booth, our materials, see us out in public with Pricklee, like we definitely get people being like, “Oh, we saw you guys on Shark Tank.” We always – The number of times we’ve had to tell the story of like, “What was that like?” It’s definitely something that we’re passionate about. But it was definitely one of those things where that was absolutely Shark Tank. 

[00:22:23] TU: Not once. I don’t think not once did you or Mo mentioned that you were a pharmacist on that show. Was that an intentional move?

[00:22:30] KY: I think we actually did but –

[00:22:32] TU: Oh, did you?

[00:22:32] KY: Well, so the time that you’re in there is quite a bit longer than what actually gets aired. We think we’ve been there for almost 45 minutes. It was cut to eight. They did a really good job of actually representing the conversation and negotiate the intent of it. But, I mean, at the end of the day, I mean, they’re trying to put on a good show and trying to make it very, very snappy and quick. 

It was funny. We had like a couple of our partners and friends actually fly in and put on cactus suits to like introduce the brand and the products, and that entire segment was cut out. So it was really funny. I mean, they were there. You saw them. But the whole dance sequence entrance, that was cut out. I guess they weren’t – I guess we just didn’t rehearse well enough, or like it wasn’t entertaining enough for dancers across the US. But, yeah, I know. We talked about it, I think, a couple of times. But definitely within the 45-minute segment, they cut that down to 8 minutes.

[00:23:22] TU: So one of the things Tim and I were talking about this, Tim, my partner at YFP last week, he does a lot of teaching on negotiation. One of the things that happened in the Shark Tank episode, at least, of the eight minutes that they filmed, is when Kevin – He went on this rant of, “I hate beverage deals. However, I like this product.” He ended up countering that. I think it was $200,000 for a 20% stake, instead of a 5% stake. Then you had a brilliant response, and you said something along the lines of how are we supposed to do that? Then you provide the rationale behind the how are we supposed to do that, in terms of needing the cash flow and so forth to grow and sustain the business, which is a textbook calibrated question or negotiation. 

The book, How I Split the Difference, Chris Voss, he talks about this question precisely. So I assume you were prepared for that specific type of instance, where you had to negotiate. Was that fair?

[00:24:17] KY: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, no Shark Tank deal goes on air and comes out the way that it was presented. It was kind of incredible how textbook the negotiation went to how we had prepared. We expected them to go to 20%. We expected Kevin in negotiation and then go to a royalty deal [inaudible 00:24:34]. Then our whole bottom line was going to be to offer the initial deal at a 5% line of credit. So the fact that it played out to a tee was just mind-blowing, I think, in terms of the preparation of that and to feel like we were actually in control of the entire conversation was pretty. 

One of our first actual adviser, Patrick Muldoon, who’s the previous CEO of Zola Coconut Water and Detour Bar, an incredibly brilliant guy. He was the one that, to your point, brought up Chris Voss, How I Split the Difference. We read that. We kind of really prepared. What happens when this likely scenario occurs that somebody’s – Let’s say you left with one truck, and you have an offer, and it’s 20%. The fact that, again, happened at that exact moment was really funny. This is a guy who’s gone through so many tough negotiations in this life and I think can really speak to experience with it. Just he kind of coaches the same thing.

Like at the end of the day, when you’re in a tough situation, I think that the best thing to do is ask questions, right? There, you’re faced with an impossible situation or impossible task or ask, which oftentimes is the case with Shark Tank. These deals are impossible deals. Yeah. Yeah. Like you ask the question of like, well, lean into their expertise and experience and figure out what is it that they’re looking for? Oftentimes, that opens up the conversation from seeming like your back against the wall, no counter. This is the final offer on the last shark, to then turning that into an actual conversation where that results in negotiation. That’s absolutely part of the game.

[00:26:01] TU: It’s interesting seeing Barbara jump back in. I didn’t see that coming. Then I thought it was cool that you guys got caught a little bit in the middle for the benefit of at least the show, where there’s, obviously, an ego play going on between the two of them that she – So that was fun to watch.

[00:26:17] KY: Yeah. We were like, “Was this about us?”

[00:26:19] TU: Right. Kun, I’m curious that as your role expands, obviously, you’re leading a rapidly growing beverage company. I don’t think any schooling, including a PharmD program and even one that has more of an entrepreneurship focus, I don’t think any schooling can prepare someone for the work and the leading that you’re doing now. I’m curious, what what skills, if you had to pick one or two, we just mentioned negotiation potentially one, what skills have you really had to develop and hone that have proven to be most valuable to you in terms of leading this company?

[00:26:52] KY: Well, it’s hard to boil that down. So I would say if it really comes down to it, I think leadership is definitely the one that has been the most difficult for me because I think – I mean, I don’t know. I think leadership is often put together as this package of people in roles, in “leadership positions,” and that’s oftentimes rewarded. There’s often momentum built around that, right? If somebody tends to be active and speak up, this tends to happen. But you really realize over time that it’s really not about that. It’s really about how do you serve the people, your constituents, your workers, your partners, your friends, your customers, and your vendors, everyone that you work with. 

Again, finding a voice of authenticity and a mission that’s so much greater than the product that you’re selling, ultimately, at the end of the day, and making sure that that’s an authentic mission and a set of value systems that really represents the people that are truly behind this company because the company really is just a journey. It’s really a journey of humans coming together, bringing their talents, introducing their networks of other talented individuals to come through. So at the end of the day, does the product really matter? Or is it really the people that come together and make it come to life? I really kind of believe that latter certainly to some extent. 

But that was a really hard thing to understand. Because I think the skills that – Again, the leadership skills that are oftentimes rewarded in a corporate setting are oftentimes selfish and ones where it’s like what are you good at. You tend to see this too with a lot of individuals that when they find themselves in conversations with senior leadership, for example, which oftentimes isn’t the case in a corporate American setting, I mean, most of the time, it’s jockeying of position of like, “This is what I’ve done. This is how I’m effective. This is what I lead.” It’s like that doesn’t really provide a lot of value in your conversation, right? 

I mean, the ultimate value, understandably, for any business is to move forward as a company because that improves everyone’s livelihood and, ultimately, your customers’ livelihood, right? So I think when you look at it in that macro, you realize it’s not about the individual. It’s about the bigger piece of like what are we all working for and realizing that the individual growth journey will actually lead to overall growth in the business. But, again, if you come from a place where you’re thinking about your specific role in that, as opposed to looking top down on how do you truly create and cultivate a culture of growth, it’s really hard to understand how to take yourself out of that and turn it the other way around and reflect all of that growth towards others, while still finding that your personal growth journey is actually felt that. 

So that was a really, really extensive journey that I’m still on, and I think there’s a lot of the people in my team and partners have been extremely patient with me through that. That I would say has been the hardest, most emotionally intelligently challenging thing and process that I think I still undergo, and I still just – I’m so in awe of people that have mastered that, and I see how they bring them to home to their families too. That’s really, I think, what keeps me excited about the growth journey in that specific way.

[00:30:14] TU: I love what you just said there, and I think you can relate to this as a relatively newer dad. But I think parenting and entrepreneurship, at least in my own journey, have really forced some of the most significant inner reflection, which can be humbling and painful sometimes in the moment of like – My kids, I love them to death. But parenting exposes every limitation I’ve ever had that I was able to hide. 

I think entrepreneurship can do the same. But I think if you lean into that, as I hear you are, it’s such a rich and rewarding journey of what are the opportunities to grow and to develop and flourish and to really think about some of these bigger questions of, sure, there’s going to be opportunity to build some wealth and create jobs and provide a really cool company and a product that’s awesome and tastes great. I can attest to that. My boys and wife can attest to that that have tried the product as well. 

But it’s bigger than that, right? It’s bigger than that, and you’re already talking about that. I think that bigger than that also enhances the product, and it makes it attractive to people that are using it and the team that is behind that. It’s energizing when you have that type of a mindset. 

[00:31:21] KY: Oh, my gosh. You hit the nail on the head. I mean, that same mentality when you apply it, to your point, I mean, having a kid, immediately put somebody significantly ahead of you in terms of priorities. That is what you have to do with entrepreneurship too, right? It’s really just not about you. It’s about the people that you serve. I think when it comes to product that you hit the nail on the head. I mean, as soon as we launched our product, we already knew that we were selling a product, and we had to find authenticity in our journey to express a brand, and that’s exactly what it was. 

It just so happened that we had – I had my daughter in that really existential brand, soul searching phase. So it actually really helped us internalize like what it meant to feel empathy for consumers in that way and build a brand that really spoke to their needs, as opposed to a brand that we wanted to express ourselves. Then finding a common ground of authenticity so that when we build everything, it feels like a true genuine expression of self, as opposed to here’s a list of factors and characteristics of this product that you should buy into. 

Sort of I think there’s a really interesting tidbit on that that I’d love to share, which is growing up in STEM, we were kind of taught to look at data and place data at a level of gospel sometimes, right? Where like the higher the end, for example, the more statistically significant, the more correct this data point ends up being. That is absolutely true, and there’s obvious logical science built into that way of discerning data. Then simultaneously, you do have occasional situations where a clinical trial may fail. Yet you have individual patients that may be cured of cancer. Does it necessarily mean that the product is not good? Or was it not tested in the right patients? I mean, you start to answer a lot of these interesting questions. 

But the reason I bring that up is because this comes back to the value system of health care, which is it’s interesting. Because within healthcare, we’re tasked to be compassionate to care for our patients, and there’s sometimes like a disconnect with the way that we think about our jobs and the way that that happens. Because when you look at datasets, you look and you’re taught to think that the higher the data set, the more accurate, the more useful this information is, almost to the point where an N of 1 becomes tossed away as meaningless. 

The irony is as we’ve built in our consumer journey, we’ve put all of our efforts into appreciating the N of 1 because the N of 1 is actually the lived journey that every single human being on this planet is born into, like every single person goes through an end of one journey. Your journey is your journey. That’s it, your perspectives, people that you’re with. I mean, that’s uniquely yours. That’s what you’re born into. That’s what you die with. The fact that that’s held out important sometimes or the importance of that, the significance of that is lost in our way of appreciating that people aren’t data points, people are people. 

If we sometimes look at that N of 1 in the context of a broader dataset and find appreciation in the outliers, you actually will find a lot more answers to those questions that you may not even know you’re asking for. That’s actually where entrepreneurship really, really has taught us is we don’t find a lot of value in our aggregated success. Aggregated success is just the status quo of what’s working. We have so much failure that there’s no real N of 1 failure that you’re looking to innovate on. 

But occasionally, we get an N of 1 that just blows our mind. How did that happen? Like where’s that coming from? Why is that happening? That insight that we get, picking up the phone, talking to that one person, can shift business strategy in ways that are so significant and unlock opportunities that we’d never considered, and it’s because we value that N of 1. I think if we look at that in health care and truly ask those questions, those deeper questions of making sure we don’t lose that context in the scheme of pursuing greater science, I think we can probably affect the holistic health of patients in a greater way as an industry. So that’s something that, again, going back full circle to your question of institutions is something that, as a value system, we should probably try to find a way to embed in our curriculum.

[00:35:30] TU: Great insights, Kun. Really have enjoyed the conversation. I’m excited to get this out to the YFP community. Where is the best place that folks can go to connect with you and to get involved perhaps in Pricklee as well?

[00:35:43] KY: Yeah, absolutely. So you can find us – For myself, personally, you can find me on LinkedIn in just Kun, K-U-N, last name Yang, Y-A-N-G. Yeah, feel free to connect and reach out if you ever want to have a conversation. We’d love to meet other pharmacists and hear about your journeys. 

Then also, it just so happens that we actually are just opening our seed investment round for Pricklee as well. So if that’s something of interest, please feel free to reach out and let us know if you have any questions or want to learn a little bit more about that opportunity as well.

[00:36:11] TU: Awesome. We’ll link to both the Pricklee site, as well as Kun’s LinkedIn profile in our show notes. Kun, thanks so much for taking time to come on the show. I appreciate it.

[00:36:19] KY: Yeah. Thanks so much for the opportunity, Tim. I had a great time. 

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[00:36:22] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you, again, for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week. 

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YFP 287: Monetizing Your Clinical Expertise with Dr. Timothy Gauthier


Timothy Gauthier, antimicrobial stewardship pharmacist and pharmacy entrepreneur, discusses the genesis of IDStewardship.com and LearnAntibiotics.com, how he has monetized his clinical expertise to create passive revenue streams, and how he balances the demands of entrepreneurship with his personal and professional commitments. 

About Today’s Guest

Timothy P. Gauthier, Pharm.D., BCPS, BCIDP is a pharmacist trained in infectious diseases and antimicrobial stewardship. He is a clinician, researcher, educator, and author. He is an advocate for antimicrobial stewardship and pharmacy education.

Dr. Gauthier graduated from Northeastern University’s School of Pharmacy (Boston, MA) in 2008. He then completed a Post-Graduate Year-1 Pharmacy Practice Residency and a Post-Graduate Year-2 Infectious Diseases Pharmacy Residency at Jackson Memorial Hospital (Miami, FL). Since finishing terminal training he has worked in academia (Nova Southeastern University, 2010-2015), clinical practice (Miami Veterans Affairs Healthcare System, 2015-2019), and a leadership role (Baptist Health South Florida, 2019-current), all focusing on advancing the fields of infectious diseases pharmacy and antimicrobial stewardship.

He holds certifications from the Board of Pharmacy Specialties for Pharmacotherapy and Infectious diseases. He has completed the Making A Difference in Infectious Diseases Pharmacotherapy Antimicrobial Stewardship Training Program.

He is the creator and editor-in-chief of www.IDstewardship.com, www.LearnAntibiotics.com, and the many @IDstewardship social media profiles. He co-hosts the #ASPchat each month on Twitter. He reaches thousands of people each day on the internet and on social media, where he aims share reliable and relevant information from the world of pharmacy and healthcare in general. IDstewardship.com alone has registered over 5,00,000 page views as of November 2022. He is also the author of the recently released book “Learn Antibiotics” which is now available for sale on Amazon.

Episode Summary

This week on the YFP Podcast, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, welcomes antimicrobial stewardship pharmacist and fellow pharmacy entrepreneur, Tim Gauthier. Tim is the creator of IDStewarship.com and LearnAntibiotics.com. During the show, Tim and Tim discuss the genesis for creating these two learning platforms, how Tim has monetized his clinical experience to create passive streams of income, and how he manages to stay consistent in entrepreneurship while balancing a full-time pharmacy career and fulfilling personal life. Listeners will hear about Tim’s pathway to pharmacy, what drew him into the profession, his passion for infectious disease pharmacy, and what he was hoping to accomplish with his learning platforms, IDStwardship.com and LearnAntibiotics.com. Tim walks us through the content and resources available on his websites and how he has monetized them while providing a wealth of free content to his community. Making things passive and generating passive revenue streams is crucial to Tim, and he shares the tools and systems he has put in place to make that goal possible while balancing other obligations. Tim also discusses the incredible value of community and how he has built an active, engaged pharmacists community that contributes to the platforms in multiple ways. Tim closes with advice for pharmacists looking to follow a similar path in monetizing their clinical expertise.

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] T. ULBRICH: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. 

This week, I had a chance to welcome antimicrobial stewardship pharmacist and fellow pharmacy entrepreneur, Tim Gauthier. Tim is the creator of IDStewardship.com and LearnAntibiotics.com. During the show, Tim and I talk about the genesis for creating these two learning platforms, how Tim has monetized his clinical expertise, and how he manages and leverages his time to be able to consistently put out good content while working full-time and fulfilling his personal commitments and goals.

Before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 250 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. 

All right, let’s jump into my interview with pharmacist and entrepreneur, Tim Gauthier. 

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:21] T. ULBRICH: Tim, welcome to the show.

[00:01:23] T. GAUTHIER: Hey, thanks for having me. I’m really excited to be here. How are you, Tim?

[00:01:26] T. ULBRICH: I’m well. I’m excited to dig into the work that you’re doing and for you to share with the YFP community how you’ve been monetizing your clinical expertise. But before we jump into that, I’d love to learn about your journey into pharmacy school, into the profession, where you went to school, when you graduated, and what drew you into the profession of pharmacy.

[00:01:44] T. GAUTHIER: Oh, yeah, of course. So I went to Northeastern University in Boston, Massachusetts and graduated in 2008, which feels like yesterday, but it’s been four years now. I got into pharmacy because I really was interested in microbiology. It turns out it’s easier to transfer into microbiology from pharmacy than pharmacy to microbiology. So I started in pharmacy. I ended up sticking with it. I never thought I’d go into infectious diseases pharmacy, just because it didn’t really cross my mind, and I didn’t know much about that early in my years. 

Then later on, after PGY1, I had the opportunity to do a PGY2 in ID. Lo and behold, today, I’m an infectious diseases-obsessed pharmacist, who’s out there to defend antibiotics and promote clinical pharmacy. So here we are today.

[00:02:27] T. ULBRICH: So the Northeast, Tim, to Florida. This is the time of year in the Northeast. I grew up in the Buffalo area, where it’s beautiful. I always say six months out of the year, I’d live anywhere else. But the Midwest I’m at now or the Northeast. But the other six months, included this time of year, is absolutely gorgeous. So do you miss the seasons at all?

[00:02:49] T. GAUTHIER: I do miss the seasons, but the winter in Miami, Florida, where I live now, is just absolutely wonderful. I love the culture, as well as all the different types of food here. We do visit. Periodically, I go to Boston, Rhode Island, Connecticut and stuff. So it’s nice to be able to have a little bit of the best of both worlds.

[00:03:06] T. ULBRICH: Yeah, yeah. So we connected several years back, and I’ve been following your work for some time. I wanted to bring you out in the show, as I think what you’ve built is a really cool example of how pharmacists can monetize their clinical expertise. Certainly, as we’ll talk about, it’s not just about the money, but it’s being able to leverage the skills, the passion, the interest that you have to fill a gap in the market and to help people looking to learn more about a topic. 

Here, we’re going to be talking about infectious disease, of course, and we have featured a variety of individuals on the podcasts over the past year or so. So I’m excited to share your journey as well. So let’s start with IDStewardship.com. When and why did you start it? Who was it for? What were you hoping to accomplish? 

[00:03:49] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. So IDStewardship.com has been alive since about 2016, and I just had a friend who knew how to build websites, and I wanted to build something on my own, and he offered to help and put it together. Then I kind of took off from there, and I do pretty much everything on my own now. When I have a technical problem, he comes in? But why did I do it? There’s a couple of reasons. 

One is I wanted to own my own space on the Internet, where I could have a voice, where I could publish things and not be restricted by a company or a manager or a group of people. Also, I just really enjoy your writing. So it gave me an opportunity to use a different part of my brain on the weekends and in the evening hours to share information that could be open access and someone else could benefit from. There’s a huge need in pharmacy. It has been for us to share our experiences and practical advice and insights so that others can learn and grow from it. 

Also, just sharing information about antibiotics to make it easier for people to understand what drugs can I use for MRSA or Pseudomonas. But then some deeper things like what are five things to know about, I don’t know, Stenotrophomonas or Acinetobacter. So really, it’s just a myriad of content these days. If you’re a pharmacy professional, if you’re a healthcare professional, there’s some stuff on there that you’ll be interested in. If you’re just looking for fun stuff, there’s a drug name emoji that people really, really seem to enjoy. 

[00:05:03] T. ULBRICH: So I’m trying to understand, Tim, the need you’re filling with this resource. So obviously, we all went through ID curriculums in our PharmD program. There are there are PGY2 residencies that focus on this fellowships who focus on this. Certainly, there are associations or interest groups within associations that focus on this. So what is different here that you’re trying to carve out to fill a need that you felt like either wasn’t being met for you or for other clinicians through those other learning pathways?

[00:05:32] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. I didn’t do very well in ID in pharmacy school, ironically, and I didn’t feel comfortable with it until I was like halfway through my PGY2. Practical resources that are available that are insightful and that consider the things that are beyond just the obvious, those were lacking. That really motivated me to try to put out things that were interesting. But also, like when you go to practice, these are five things you need to know about [inaudible 00:05:55] come across [inaudible 00:05:57]. I think that the community has received it really well, but I use social media to amplify that voice in different social media platforms. 

So it’s been a really rewarding experience, and collaborating with others from around the world has been something an area of success, I think, to be part of kind of the community that I’ve built. But I have a lot of flexibility, and that’s one thing that a lot of organizations don’t have.

[00:06:21] T. ULBRICH: Yes, yeah. The digestible nature of the content strikes me. You’ve alluded to it a couple of times with examples you’ve given thus far in the show. It reminds me of one of the pharmacist we’ve had on this show, Kelley Carlstrom, on episode 217. Her business called KelleyCPharmD. She does an awesome job of this in the pharmacy space, specifically in oncology practice, making it accessible, no matter where you are. She trained at the Cleveland Clinic, an internationally recognized institution. Not everyone can go do your residency there, right? Has the time to commit, potentially has to travel to do that. 

Her vision really is what about all the other hospitals? What about all the rural healthcare settings that are trying to treat patients and get their clinical staff up to speed? Or perhaps different practice models that don’t have a lineup of board certified residency trained pharmacists with multiple credentials? How can we expand the accessibility of this content? That’s one of things I love about what you’re doing here, and it really does strike me as being much more accessible than what is out there and some more traditional training programs or those that are offered by other groups. 

It’s also written and presented in a way that is easy to understand. It’s relevant. It’s things that, Tim, you’re experiencing daily as a clinician yourself or encounters when you’re precepting residents or students. So you know the pain points. You know the questions, the problems, the points of confusion because you’re living them each day. I love the platform of what you built to address that. 

So take us, Tim, through IDStewardship.com, in terms of the content you have, the resources you offer, and how you’ve been able to monetize it, right? You give out a lot of great content for free. But you also been able to monetize the site and enable to reap some of the fruit for all the work that you’re putting in, and you’ve put in over the last seven years. So talk to us about what you offer and provide on the site and how you’ve been able to monetize that.

[00:08:14] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. I offered way too much stuff for free, probably. But exactly like an altruistic passion project, it has to make some kind of money for my wife to allow me to continue it. So definitely, it’s a mixed bag. But the art of the IDStewardship.com offers articles, which are blog articles talking about the student experience, the pharmacist experience, clinical insights into common questions that we ask and that we see. Those are always written by content experts who have practical experience in the area, and I vet all that content to make sure it’s reliable, credible, and it goes beyond like the obvious content that you might find in a general article. 

Also, there’s a study guide section, which is free and open access that has a picture of the drug, some of my key points, which I think you might find on your pharmacy school exams or maybe the BCPS or BCIDP exam and then links to some of the articles or some of the guidelines that are really relevant to that drug. I have a list of resources, which is pretty cool. If you’re looking for anything about antibiotics, that is a very robust list of resources. So like hepatitis C screening for Child-Pugh score. There’s a calculator in there. Just pick one random example. Or even if you’re looking for regulatory content from the Joint Commission, it’s linked there. 

I also have the contributor section, where you can see who’s participated, and there’s really a lot of contributors to my website. So I do want to emphasize that that’s a really cool part of what I’ve been able to do, and it’s not just Tim doing it. It’s the community. But I kind of lead it because I’m kind of like the editor in chief of the content founder. The other part, though, which I really want to talk about for a second is LearnAntibiotics.com. So I’ve taken the opportunity to show people that, yes, these are articles that are available. But I’ve been able to produce content that you can use for learning. As a background in academia, I know that you have to go and be able to identify and define before you can analyze and assess and predict. 

So I’ve built content specifically to help people through that learning process. If you’re looking to identify and define, I have cheat sheets on different disease states, on different drug classes. Those can help people to say, okay, like, “Pseudomonas drugs, these are my drugs.” But then I also make more fun content that has like a word search or a Jeopardy game. Those can be applied to the specific area. Then the practice tests I’ve built so that if you are able to pass that practice test, you can practice pretty competently as a pharmacist and know what questions to ask for infectious diseases and even some of them I’ll give you. Here’s the question, here’s the answer, and here’s the rationale for why each answer is right, and each answer is wrong. So it’s pretty robust. 

[00:10:59] T. ULBRICH: I love that and I want to come back in a little bit to talk more about the LearnAntibiotics.com, in terms of what you’re trying to accomplish there. I think that’s going to give some folks some interesting ideas about as you’re considering monetizing your clinical expertise, there’s a lot of different ways to do that. I love what you’ve built there with that membership type of model. 

Two words, Tim, that really stand out about what you’ve built and the vision that you have going forward are passion and community. You mentioned community just a moment ago, and I love that you’ve brought together a group of people that are, obviously, passionate about learning more about antimicrobial stewardship, learning more about infectious disease, bringing in contributors to the site, taking them from just a passive learner, to engaging them in the conversation, contributing to the community, and then passion. Your passion for this topic and furthering individuals’ knowledge and, obviously, the more our healthcare professionals know about this topic, the better they’re able to serve their patients. 

I think this is so important for folks to hear, when you’re working on a side hustle or a business, especially when you’re working a full-time job, you have lots of other commitments, doing something that you’re passionate about, you mentioned that I probably got too much free content out there, right? It’s a passion project for you. Yes, you’re monetizing it. But that is going to really drive the energy and the enthusiasm to continue to build, especially in the early years, as someone who’s trying to get something off the ground. 

Tim, as people go to IDStewardship.com and they see what you’ve built over several years, how much of this is what you have built and maintained? And how much of this is what you have other people that are helping you in building and maintaining the site?

[00:12:36] T. GAUTHIER: That’s a great question, and it’s definitely changed over time. When I started to look at developing a website, I talked to one of my friends who’s in website development, and he said, “Tim, we can do a website. But this is not a six-month thing, and this is not a one-year thing. This is like a 10-year journey, and you have to think of it very long-term.” So taking small bites has been one of the keys to success. As I’ve understood the workflows on developing different items, it’s gotten to be more efficient over time. I do produce actually the majority of the content on my own when it comes to the background work. 

But the one thing that people send to the community of pharmacists, they’re willing to be a part of this journey. Them sending me articles and communicating with me and offering their assistance and trying to get their message out and share their passion, that really has enabled me to produce more content and put more information out there. But it is a tremendous amount of work. I do spend a lot of time between the hours of 8:00 PM and 11:00 PM working on this type of stuff. I think if you don’t have the passion for it, it’s probably going to be hard to do it long term. 

But that’s what drives me because I just really am totally obsessed with infectious diseases and microbial stewardship, and I think people need help learning. I needed a lot of help learning. I see where there’s benefit. I see where there’s value. There’s some monetary benefit that comes with it. It’s not anything that’s extreme by any means. But by having that win-win, it’s really been something that I think has been worth pursuing. 

One of the secrets that they say is not to do things alone, right? If you’re going to build a program like this, or you’re going to build a side business. I have mixed feelings about that. On one hand, I love the freedom that I have. I have total creative freedom to do whatever I want, whenever I want, with no one arguing with me. But at the same time, being in an echo chamber with yourself is not always a positive thing, and having a partner can push you in good directions. So I think partnerships are important, and you can choose to pursue things as a partnership or as an individual.

Something else I want to note that as I built out what I have online with IDStewardship is I’ve really purposely tried to make it about the brand and not about me. That kind of protects me in a way because the voice is the voice of the brand and not the voice of the individual. Also, people can engage within behind that brand and be a part of the community again, rather than it being part of what Tim is doing. So that was actually very strategic in the development. 

[00:15:02] T. ULBRICH: Yeah, Tim. I think that’s a strategic move for the reason you mentioned also. I think about the passion and the mission of what you’re trying to do. Like there may be a day where maybe this isn’t only Tim who’s doing this. Or for whatever reason, you have others that are involved in the mission of advancing the education around IDStewardship and being able to have this information accessible, where folks can learn and perhaps be excited about learning it I think transcends just one person, right? So I think the contributors is another important aspect here of what you’ve highlighted.

[00:15:34] T. GAUTHIER: Like making things passive is also really important to me. I’ve learned that a lot during COVID because COVID has been absolutely horrible for all infectious diseases pharmacists and time management and when life was balanced. I mean, everybody in general. But I mean, trying to keep up with the literature and be engaged, on top of having this site and stuff going on, I need things to be able to put on pause, right? If I have no commitments that I’ve made, that’s not going to serve me well in the long term. So I really try to do things that are passive whenever possible and then only commit to like a couple of things at a time.

[00:16:05] T. ULBRICH: Yeah. One other thing I was thinking about, Tim, as I was looking at your site, that would be I think good advice for folks that are thinking about building their own, especially if they don’t have a huge budget upfront to be able to hire a web developer. If you’re building a content-based site, it could be blog articles that you’re adding, podcasts that you’re adding, e-resources that you’re adding checklists, guides, e-books, whatever, like you want to make sure you’re building it in a way that you understand and can add to it on a regular basis. 

So even if you’re working with a developer or a contractor to help you, making sure you have enough understanding of the back end so that you’re not spending a whole lot of money long-term or frustrated that each time you’re trying to add a piece of content to the site, whether that’s a blog, podcast, an opt-in guide, whatever be the case, that you want to be able to have something that’s nimble, and you can add to over time. 

[00:16:51] T. GAUTHIER: I’ve seen some people who built 20,000, 25,000-dollar websites, and they tend to be the people that follow a lot of podcasters in the space of like social media and engagement and business development. So I think if you’re committed to it, it can be worth the money. But you got to proceed with caution.

[00:17:10] T. ULBRICH: When I go to the site, Tim, and you mentioned already that LearnAantibiotics.com, www.learnantibiotics.com, we’ll link to that in the show notes, which takes you over to the IDStewardship site, that really is the membership portion of the site, where folks can be engaging with the community on an ongoing basis. Obviously, the goal there is that becomes some stability of recurring revenue that supports a lot of the time and effort and the free content that you’re putting out there. 

Talk to us about – I think in content marketing, and I hesitate to use that word because I feel like you’re leading with such good passion and education that sometimes that word can sound dirty. But ultimately, the value that you’re providing and really good free rich education is naturally going to make people aware of what you’re doing on the membership side, which has a recurring revenue potential. 

So what has your strategy or approach been to connect the free content with the membership model? Is it just that, hey, more eyeballs on the site and value that they’ll kind of find their way over there? Is it opt-ins that then point people to that resource? Tell us more about the strategy that you’ve employed to connect the free education people are viewing and receiving with some of the paid options you have. 

[00:18:24] T. GAUTHIER: For sure. As you’re saying, this, I’m thinking about how I need to be more strategic. Sometimes, just go with the flow. That feels good. That feels good. Sometimes, I think of things, and I’m like, “Oh, I wish I had done that.” Even right now, there’s a list of things that if I had the time in my life to do, I would totally do. 

But in general, what I try to do is capture a large audience and engage a large audience and do that through all these different ways that I think of, whether it’s something that’s like a clickable link on an Instagram story, or it’s a new blog post that I put out, or it’s putting a meme out there or just sharing like, “Hey, here’s like a part of my cheat sheet. If you’d like to see more of it like, shoot me your email address. I’ll shoot you a copy of this cheat sheet in full.” Then I have a way to communicate with those individuals. So if you’re just interested in the LearnAntibotics site or you’re interested in like all of IDStewardship, and you want to get our monthly newsletter, I’m able to reach you that way.

Another thing that’s important about having a mail listing is that if like tomorrow, Instagram decides to just delete my account, which they can’t, I have nothing. I’m left with nothing. Whereas since I have a Mailchimp account, they’re able to house my ability to communicate with my people. So in general, I provide something for free. I get the ability to contact these people. If you want to unsubscribe, I have no problem with that. Actually, when people unsubscribe, I don’t have to pay for you to be on my listserv anymore. I actually don’t mind at all. So if you don’t look at the newsletters we send out, feel free to unsubscribe. But if you want to subscribe, then we’d love to communicate with you. 

I think that’s kind of the most important thing I’ve learned when it comes to telling people you have something to share with them, showing them that it’s meaningful, getting them excited about it, showing them that you’re a reliable person that has the know-how to get them the resource that they need to succeed. That is really critical. So that’s kind of some of the messaging there. 

[00:20:18] T. ULBRICH: Yeah. I think one of the other things you’ve done really well, Tim, that I admire is you’re consistent in your content. We know and we’ll talk in a moment about how you balance time with other personal responsibilities. None of us are perfect and consistent in delivering the same amount of material, but you’ve been consistent over the years in terms of there’s not months and months of like quiet phases, and then you dump a bunch of content. 

I think that’s so important for any – If we think about communities we like to be a part of or content we like to follow, it’s a consistent offering that we’re engaging with that content. So as you’re getting started, as someone’s getting started, I think thinking about what is – Once you decide on the medium, is it a blog, is it a podcast, whatever you’re looking at, is it something like a vlog, what is going to be your rhythm roughly that you’re going to be delivering content and making sure you’re showing up on a consistent basis with your audience and those that are finding value from what you’re doing?

[00:21:10] T. GAUTHIER: Along those lines, I think listening to your community is important. I had someone email me recently and say, “Hey, Tim. I wish you had a malaria cheat sheet because I’m studying for the BCIDP exam or the BCPS exam,” I forget which. I made one that weekend, and I really enjoyed it. I thought it was super interesting. I learned a bunch about malaria. So not only does it like help people advance their professional goals. It helps me remember things. I use my websites all the time to remember some of these nuances that are details that are just – You can’t remember everything.

[00:21:40] T. ULBRICH: That’s where I think the community piece comes in well too. You’ve got a good social media following. I’m sure people reach out to your questions all the time. You have students on rotation. You start to put some of those repeated questions into content buckets, right? I know you have a list of running content ideas. I’m sure you do. But once you hear a question more than one, two, or three times, it’s like, all right, maybe there’s something here in terms of a piece of content that we should be putting out. 

Let’s talk about time and balancing doing this. You’ve certainly made a strong case that there’s a lot of passion behind it. But nonetheless, like you’ve got a family. You’re working a full-time job. You’re precepting residents, students. You have expectations at home and at work. Like what strategies have you employed time blocking, or how have you been able to really leverage time so that you can continue to put out content on a consistent basis while working full-time?

[00:22:31] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. Well, in the early days, and I was working at the Veterans Affairs Hospital in Miami, and they’re very strict in terms of their hours. So when you’re off duty, you’re off time. So everything that I did in the beginning was during off hours. That’s still the same today, but it taught me that you should only work on these things when you’re not on company resources, etc. 

But then I didn’t have small children in the early days, which meant I have had a lot more time, especially in the evening areas of the day. More recently, I have a three-year-old and a seven-year-old, and the evening hours are much more strenuous. So now, since we’ve developed more of an awareness in the community about IDStewardship, I reach out to people. When I see an article posted on like Twitter about something new that I’m interested in, I’ll reach out to the person who authored the article and say, “Hey, I’d love to have you write five things to know about whatever the topic is.” 

People almost always say yes because they want to share their passion. But it’s not just about me getting content. They now have a way to share that information. Sometimes, it’s the resident or the student or the second or third author that I work with. So they get an opportunity to share their voice. Coming up with strategies where I don’t have to do all the work has been one thing. Then also, like when you look at the development of like research and scholarly work in an academic position, you kind of look at it like a conveyor belt, and you want projects in all areas of your conveyor belt. 

Some things are in – You’re designing. What do you think it might look like, and you have your concepts, your list of projects? Then other things are going into publication, going out on the newsletter. So you’re constantly just like feeding that conveyor belt and keeping it going in different areas, and that’s how you stay productive over a long period of time. It’s not about taking one thing and rushing it forward but just maintaining that conveyor belt. There might be different conveyor belts that go faster or slower, and some things might take two years to do. 

But I always move forward with projects based upon what I think is like fun and interesting, and I don’t put pressure on people. I’m not out there saying, “Hey, if you don’t get back to me in two weeks, you’re not going to be allowed to do this.” If you don’t feel like doing this later because you have a problem, whatever. Don’t do it. If you want to circle back in two years, circle back into years, like no pressure.

[00:24:39] T. ULBRICH: Take us a little bit behind the scenes. I think one of the barriers that folks run into is they’re just trying to get started, and they go to someone’s site. They don’t necessarily have a picture of what are some of the tools and the systems and the processes that you have in place. You’ve mentioned a couple things already. Obviously, you’ve got the website infrastructure. You mentioned the email list. So like for us, we use WordPress for our website build. We use Bluehost for our domain hosting. We use ActiveCampaign for our email marketing. Then we have several other tools we use for project management and other things. 

So what are some of the tools that you use or that you have found to be helpful as you’ve been working on IDStewardship?

[00:25:18] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah, for sure. I use WordPress, and then I use WPX Hosting. Then for like the memberships, it’s PMPro or Paid Memberships Pro. I’ve been pretty happy with those overall. The WordPress in particular, it’s just overall really easy to use. You add a plug in. It updates. It’s no big deal. WPX is really – Once a year, I pay a fee. Once in a while, I’ll have a bandwidth issue. So I’ve learned that I need to downsize the images that I use when I post, which I think a lot of people kind of learn that lesson. 

I mean, that’s really the gist of it. Outside that, I use Mailchimp for my emails. I don’t really love how much they charge. I think they’re charging me like 250 a month for like 25,000 subscribers. So it’s great to have that many subscribers, but it doesn’t feel good paying $2,500 a year for that. But it also motivates me to put out content to use that tool that I’m paying for. So those are some of the key things that I’m using now. 

Otherwise, I just maintained like Excel sheets for a while. In the beginning, when I didn’t have as much content, I would do a lineup, and I would remind myself of when I posted to Facebook about a specific blog post, and I would just keep cycling through them. So I was always posting like one thing a day on Facebook. But it’s gotten to the point that I can’t do that anymore. I’d need to hire like a social media manager or something like that. I think as you grow, you need to start considering how can you work with who can you bring in. 

Another thing is as I’ve kind of met people in life through my way or through other venues, I work with them. So I just met a guy over the weekend that he prints things for a living, right? So there’s so much opportunity for us to collaborate with printing things. My audience is interested in topics of pharmacy and infectious diseases. So being entrepreneurial is one of the definitely keys to success here and also not being stuck in your ways, being able to evaluate things, and then accept feedback. If it’s not going well and someone tells you it’s not going well, take that advice and see how you can make it better and ask them, “Hey, how can I make this better?”

[00:27:13] T. ULBRICH: Yes, great advice, Tim. I think for people that are listening, and they hear 25,000 people on an email list and again not getting paralyzed from Jump Street. I think I love what you shared of it was a spreadsheet to begin with, right? I’ve shared before on this podcast that the first 100 subscribers on our email list were a combination of text messages and Facebook messages and LinkedIn posts that I had, and that eventually got added to an email software. Eventually, we added automations. Eventually, we added opt-in funnels and all those things, project management, social media management tools, things like that. But just getting started, you can do a lot of that manually. Get some of the things off the ground. Then as you get momentum, you can build out the systems and the processes that will help with efficiencies. 

Tim, if someone is listening and they are on the very front end of this, so let’s just pick another specialty that’s out there, and they’re thinking, “I’d love to build something in this domain, similar to what I see Tim doing with IDStewardship, Kelley doing with oncology. I also think about what Jimmy Pruitt’s doing with acute care out there in pharmacy,” like what advice would you have with them at the very beginning of their journey? If you think back to where you were when you started in 2015, like now looking back seven years later, like what piece of advice would you have to share with them as they get started on this journey?

[00:28:33] T. GAUTHIER: Well, I mean, first of all, not just because I – If I say something, it doesn’t mean it’s necessarily true. So it’s just my opinion on some of this. So feel free to disagree. But one thing I feel is that, especially when it comes to social media, people go on Twitter, on TikTok, on Facebook because they’re looking for things for themselves. So if you’re not putting out things that are going to be interesting to your audience, then your audience is not going to grow like they should. 

So everything that you do, no matter what you’re doing, should be aligned with why your audience is going to that area, and that’s going to help to get them to like it, get them to share it, which is very, very difficult in the pharmacy profession. We’re like 90% passive users. We love to learn. 

[00:29:11] T. ULBRICH: That’s right. 

[00:29:13] T. GAUTHIER: I’ll post something on Facebook, man, and it’s like five likes. But then I’ll see that I got 250 link clicks. So it’s very interesting. From an outside, you might look at my Facebook page or something and say, “Oh, I got a couple of likes or clicks,” and you can’t see the clicks, but you’ll only see a couple of likes, and they got lots of clicks. So it’s kind of one thing that’s important, I think, as you’re starting off. 

Another thing about starting off would probably be considered like long-term how you’re going to grow, and you’re talking about the design of your product. I think that core message and that core what am I doing here is really important. Over time, is that going to change? Because if it’s focused on something that’s relevant now like COVID, for example, or monkeypox, maybe that’s not relevant in two years from now.

[00:29:59] T. ULBRICH: It’s pretty cool. Yep, absolutely. That’s great stuff, Tim. I’m excited for our listeners, if they’re not already aware to follow the journey, and I hope they’ll opt in your newsletter. Where is the best place that folks can go to follow you and the journey and the work that you’re doing?

[00:30:16] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. I mean, definitely IDStewardship.com, and you can sign up for our newsletter there or just follow along on Instagram or our Facebook or goods areas. Twitter, you can find me there as well. It’s a little bit more focused on infectious diseases and as a whole and staying up with the literature on Twitter. So either of those but the newsletters are really a good place to start.

[00:30:37] T. ULBRICH: Awesome. Thanks, Tim. Appreciate you taking time to come on the show.

[00:30:39] T. GAUTHIER: Oh, it was my pleasure. We’ve worked together for so long over the years. It’s really a wonderful opportunity for me, and I appreciate your time.

[00:30:46] T. ULBRICH: Thank you. 

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[00:30:47] T. ULBRICH: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you, again, for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week. 

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YFP 284: Monetizing Your Clinical Expertise with Dr. Jimmy Pruitt


Dr. Jimmy Pruitt, an emergency medicine clinical specialist and entrepreneur, discusses what led him to start the Pharmacy and Acute Care University, how he monetized his clinical expertise through developing masterclasses, workshops, reference libraries, community forums, and webinars about the effective use of medications in the management of critically ill patients, how he has balanced the start and growth of his business while working full-time, and the role his business has played in helping him achieve his financial goals.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Jimmy Pruitt is originally from Orlando, FL, and is a combination of nerd and gym funky having a background as a division 1 cornerback then turned Doctor of Pharmacy from Presbyterian College School of Pharmacy in 2017. He completed a PGY-1 Pharmacy Residency at Florida Hospital Orlando, and then went on to Grady Health System in Atlanta GA for his PGY2 Emergency Medicine Residency. Dr. Pruitt is currently an Emergency Medicine Clinical Pharmacy Specialist at the Medical University of South Carolina in Charleston, SC.

Dr. Pruitt was honored with the Excellence in Diversity from MUSC College of Pharmacy, Presbyterian College School of Pharmacy (PCSP) Alumni of the Year, and keynote speaker for the 2021 PCPS graduation. Dr. Pruitt’s professional interests include cardiac arrest, shock syndromes, trauma, hosting the #1 Emergency Medicine Pharmacy Podcast “Pharm So Hard” and operating his new pharmacy academy called Pharmacy & Acute Care University.

Episode Summary

This week on the YFP Podcast, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, sits down with emergency medicine clinical specialist and entrepreneur, Dr. Jimmy Pruitt. They touch on what led Dr. Pruitt to start Pharmacy & Acute Care University, how he has scaled the business, and how entrepreneurship has moved him forward in his financial plan.

Dr. Pruitt started by answering questions presented to him by other clinicians, often looking for resources for himself and other pharmacists. Jimmy decided to start Pharmacy & Acute Care University, meeting a need in the community while monetizing his clinical expertise by providing pharmacy-related content from a pharmacist with experience. To date, Jimmy has developed masterclasses, a reference library, workshops, community forums, live seminars, literature reviews, and webinars about the effective use of medications in the management of critically ill patients. One of Dr. Pruitt’s goals for the platform is to be inclusive of healthcare providers outside of pharmacists. 

Tim and Jimmy close the interview with a conversation about balancing entrepreneurship with competing responsibilities. Jimmy shares the first steps he took to build his business, how he has formed his team behind the scenes, and how he overcame some early challenges of expanding the PACU and its offerings. Lastly, Jimmy shares some personal insight on how Pharmacy & Acute Care University helped him reach his financial goals and reframe his view of retirement.

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. 

This week, I had the opportunity of sitting down with emergency medicine clinical specialist and entrepreneur, Dr. Jimmy Pruitt. During the show, we discussed what led him to start the Pharmacy & Acute Care University. How Dr. Pruitt has monetized his clinical expertise through developing masterclasses, workshops, reference libraries, community forums and webinars. How he has balanced the start and growth of his business while working full time. And the role that his business has played in helping him achieve his financial goals.

Before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YPF Planning does in working one on one with more than 250 households in 40 plus states. YFP Planning offers fee only, high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one on one with a certified financial planner, who may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Dr. Jimmy Pruitt.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:20] TU: Jimmy, welcome to the show.

[00:01:21] JP: Oh, thanks for having me on. It’s definitely a pleasure to get started with this and talk to you guys a little bit more about in Your Financial Pharmacist.

[00:01:31] TU: Yeah, I’m really excited to share with the YFP community about how you’ve been monetizing your clinical expertise, a topic we’ve been talking more about on the show over the past couple of years. But first, before we get into all of that, tell me what drew you into pharmacy, where you went to school, and when you graduated?

[00:01:47] JP: Perfect. I was fortunate that in high school, I had a chemistry professor that really challenged me to think more outside of sports, because my plan A was to go to NFL, and get lucky and went to a pharmacy school that had a football program. It was great. So, I went to undergrad at Presbyterian College and went to pharmacy school at Presbyterian College, and I was fortunate that I was able to live up two my passion with pharmacy and football and really, gave me the background to want to connect with a team, to be a team leader, and to just produce something more than what I’m used to. So, that was really my background and just being good at chemistry, being good at math, and a special interest to the medications.

[00:02:29] TU: So, you graduate from Presbyterian in 2017. Tell us about the career path since then, post-graduation, residency and the initial clinical work that you’ve done.

[00:02:39] JP: After pharmacy school, I went to AdventHealth Orlando, and was able to get a very good foundation at that very large program. It’s one of the top five largest programs in the nation. From there, I really solidified me enjoying the acute care side of things, and particularly, the emergency department. Then from there, I went to Grady Health Systems in downtown Atlanta where I got to see and do more than I can ever imagine and that was just phenomenal. And more particularly, being able to see and manage those critically ill patients in a manner that most pharmacists and the laws don’t really allow them to do.

So, I really got hands on with those patients and really working with physicians, nurses and things of that nature really helped me understand my expertise. And then from there, my first job outside of residency was at Augusta University Medical Center, which is another large academic medical center that has a level one trauma center, really got my hands dirty there, and I was also still working at Grady Health Systems on my off time. So, I’ve worked quite a bit that first year and a year and a half. And as of lately, I’ve went to the Medical University of South Carolina, which is another again large center and trauma center as well, where I’m also part of the faculty at the School of Pharmacy and teaches on the acute care side of things.

[00:03:55] TU: Well, no wonder why you’re busy. Before we hit record, I asked you, “Hey, how are things going?” He said, “Busy.” It makes sense. You’ve got a lot going on and we’ll talk about the business in addition to the full time work here in a moment. But I’m going to brag on you for a moment because a lot has happened in a relatively short period of time. So, you graduated pharmacy school 2017. You did residency training, as you mentioned, PGY 1, PGY 2, and you’ve had quite a large amount of success as a new practitioner. You were honored with the Excellence in Diversity from MUSC College of Pharmacy. You were the Alumni of the Year from your alma mater, also the keynote speaker for their graduation in 2021. You’ve started a podcast, Pharm So Hard, we’ll link to that in the show notes. We’ll talk about, here today, Pharmacy & Acute Care University is really the business that you have been building to help clinicians that are wanting to improve themselves as it relates to that area of practice.

So, let’s jump into that. Tell us about when you decided to start pharmacy and acute care University. We’ll link to that site in the show notes. But it’s, pharmacy-acutecareuniversity.com. When you decided to start it and why you started it? What was the genesis and the origins for doing that?

[00:05:06] JP: Absolutely. So, the precursor to Pharmacy & Acute Care University was a thing I used to call a blog called pharmacy frothy pearls. And what it was initially, that was just a short form, a handout, it’s using front and back that really summarize a disease state or a particular topic, and many people really enjoyed that, and I was fortunate to win an essay, who’s got talent for that, but people want a little more. I kept trying to make pharmacy pros larger or more in depth, but it really didn’t – it really wasn’t what people wanted. And as I continue to build websites and continue to get more involved in the podcast, I wanted to see if there was a way for me to monetize some of this, so I can build these platforms. And really, the next step for me was to figure out a way to, okay, build something people want and go from there.

So, about last year, I was able to really go about doing things where I planned out, what would this look like? And that step for me was to be able to go for it and create a university or academies where I can build things that not only myself, but other preceptors that individuals can be a part of, and it really was something that was I just figured out, if you want a topic, let me know and I’ll ask people what they wanted. I looked online to figure out what are the disease these people are interested in, and what, I think, they’re missing, and I really start to build upon that, and it really was the thing I want to separate, being able to give people things they need from our free standpoint with my podcasts and pearls, but then be able to get a little bit more in depth and provide some more value.

[00:06:35] TU: Critical care is certainly not my area of expertise. Emergency medicine, critical care. But I know enough within the profession that this is a topic that certainly there are groups within pharmacy associations. There are large critical care organizations outside of pharmacy that are well respected, and certainly ones that clinicians go to for resources. So, what was the gap that you saw? What was the opportunity that as you looked at those other “competing resources” that were out there, that you felt like, you know what, there’s a gap here that we really have an opportunity to build something that can supplement those resources?

[00:07:09] JP: Absolutely, Tim. So, one of the things that I noticed was that, unfortunately, when you get so big that a lot of the resources are really catered to a large percentage of practitioners. And what I want you to do is figure out what are the things that I need on a day to day basis that are necessarily not there. So, some of the times, I spent a large percentage of my time collecting resources, collecting and organizing resources. And I really wanted to figure out if there was a way for me to have all that in one click, that would save me hours of time. And also, I thought about as a resident, I spent even more time trying to figure out what is actually useful? What do I actually need to read?

So, that was the first thing that came to me with the reference library within PACU, was figuring out what do I need that’s not currently there, and what I spend the majority of my time on as a resident, and then now as a preceptor. So, I started going through different aspects and figuring out is there an easier way, or a more convenient way to organize these resources? And that was like the first step to this. And then I thought myself, how can I make this more all-inclusive, so I don’t have to go to five different websites? Because what I noticed was, I would consume a ton of content, but I had to go to five or six different websites to get that information, or I had to spend a significant amount of money each time I got those things, when I only really wanted one topic or so.

So, that was the basis for me creating a platform that included all of these things, and really helped me understand that maybe there’s a niche there for me to be able to go in and talk about the things that I do, and emergency medicine as being one of the newer specialties, and really build emergency medicine outwards, and go from that, to critical care, to internal medicine. And really, I thought about all of acute care pharmacy, there are certain things that we can build for them that they’re needing, and a lot of the content I build is based off what people send me questions on and things they say that they need. So, that was really the niche that I picked up on.

[00:09:08] TU: Yeah, so valuable information to hear there. It’s one, you’re living it, as a clinician, you went through the training, you feel the pain point yourself, and then I think you mentioned a great point there as well that something that resonates with me at YFP is questions that come in. You start to see themes and repetition, you start to pick up on okay, what are the pieces of content? What are the resources that would be helpful to serve people in the community?

When I take myself back Jimmy to being in pharmacy school, which was a while ago. I graduated 2008 and I remember going through rotations and like critical care was overwhelming. It’s quickly rising, it wasn’t for me. But I remember working with a lot of critical care practitioners and I can see why the resource you’ve built is of such value to them. And you mentioned one thing already that there’s so much information, different resources that are out there, so maybe not something about well as succinct as it could be. And obviously, you’re trying to address that pain point in the academy.

I also, when I think of critical care, I think of the confidence level that’s needed among the practitioners and just the amount of information, the urgency of some of the care situations, time management, just the overall competence of the practitioner. Are those other things that you’re seeing in the community where folks that are interested in your model might be struggling with some of those areas as well?

[00:10:26] JP: Absolutely. And those ways that I’m trying to address that through our community forum, and just be able to have a conversation, because a lot of times where depending on what your practice or depending on where you’re doing your training, you may not have people that you can talk to that’s been through the scenarios that they’re training you on. The patient population may not be big on that. So, a lot of the time, we’re having mentor sessions, and we’re having one of the things I’m working on for next month, is given a class based off resources to use to save you time and organize yourself.

So, all these things, we’re looking at ways and where we can create content for people, not just on the clinical side of things, but also on the site where they are able to organize and to be able to be a little bit more confident, and maybe having one on one conversations with myself, maybe have a one on one conversations with others, and that’s where I think that we’re unique, because we’re small enough to take the needs of our clientele and say, “Okay, what else do you need?” And then I can go and use the podcast. I can go out and use all the other social media platforms that I’ve been successful on to find these people and to give them what they need.

[00:11:34] TU: When I look at your mission, Jimmy, you mentioned to empower healthcare providers with the knowledge and skills they need to provide evidence based safe care for critically ill patients. So, that terminology, healthcare providers, suggests it’s broader than pharmacists. Are you building an interprofessional platform? Is it mostly pharmacists? Tell us more about the demographic of your audience?

[00:11:53] JP: Absolutely. As of right now, the majority of our audience is going to be a pharmacist base. But again, we do have a few nurses, we do have a few physicians. And the ultimate goal is to be inclusive of everyone who utilizes pharmacotherapy to treat patients. So, the big goal, I want this to be something that everyone can use. And we have some different plans for the end of the year in early 2023, where we can provide certain solutions to a medical residency program. There’s an interesting component to where they have, at least for emergency medicine, they have a pharmacotherapy or pharmacology section within their training that needs to be marked off.

As of now, there is not a standard of how to satisfy that. So, the more and more I teach within a residency program, I have a standing position where I teach once a month to our medical residents, I’m noticing they really value that. And what if your residency program doesn’t have a pharmacist? What if you don’t have an EM pharmacist in your program? Eventually, we can get to the point to where we can provide some resources for those practitioners as well. The same thing I get from the NPs and PAs, they want more pharmacy related content from pharmacists actually practicing at the bedside. Now, I think that’s the unique component of where we’re trying to take the platform and grow this to where it can be everyone, but again, we provide you what you need, and create it in such a way that is suitable for that particular person at their time, in their training.

[00:13:20] TU: I think it’s a really interesting niche, the medical residency. Again, you’re living it, you’re teaching and working at a large academic medical center, you work with medical residents, right? So, you can design and customize curriculum and experiences in a way that you know, will be meaningful that have been tested. But to your point, not every medical residency program has access to a pharmacy practitioner. Especially, if you’re looking at something like achievement of goals and objectives within a residency program, it’s a really interesting opportunity. And to further that point, one of the unique aspects as you look at potentially marketing products and services out to residency program directors, is they’re a pretty well-defined market. You can figure out who they are and begin those communications and the network of those folks is relatively small versus blasting out the service more broadly. 

So, tell us more about Pharmacy & Acute Care University. What do you offer? You’ve mentioned a couple things with the reference library, community forum. What are the core offerings of Pharmacy & Acute Care University?

[00:14:23] JP: Absolutely. So, we have a few. Our main ones I’ve mentioned before is the reference library where again, we collect this content and save you time by putting it to where you have a quick review. So, we not only give you the guidelines and a primary articles, we can give you review articles and something that other places and other platforms haven’t included, is the podcasts and blogs that are out there, that are also pretty useful. We get all those things together because we know that our residents, we know that our physicians and PA, NP, are using those blogs. So, why don’t we look at those, examine and see if they’re useful and provide them with something that they’re going to use as well.

[00:14:59] TU: That component of that can be our master classes. This is our traditional course. I think this is something that most people are familiar with, where you go through some modules, you answer a few questions, there are some videos and different multimedia. Again, you can do on your own time, on demand class. The most popular of our platform is going to be the live seminars, and that’s basically you have a live event to where I open this up to everyone, and we can get some continuing education credit for it as well, and we those at least once a month, and that’s again, open to everyone. And then from there, if you want to get access to the slides, you want to get access to recording or continue education, that can be available inside our membership.

And lastly, something that’s new that our audience ask for was literature review. So, where we examine an article every other week, and we’re going to continue to expand this, and we break down an article based on our review. So, we read article, we provide our analysis of what it is and how to utilize that within practice, and we send you a summary of that to your email. So, if you can listen to the five to 10-minute spiel on it, you can. But if you just want to get to the bare bones, and add that to your knowledge, we have a handout that we send you every few weeks that you can just get continually updated information that’s out there in literature.

Lastly, for our more advanced practitioners, and really everyone can use this, is our patient case questions. So, we can provide you information up front, but how do you know if you really know it? Or you think I’m an advanced practitioner, I know these different things. Well, how about you test that knowledge and see if you really do and see if you can do some space retrieval and bring back some things that you highly haven’t studied in maybe a couple of months or even years. So, that’s one of the things that we’ve added on to where – this is why I call, pack you a complete, an all in one platform is simply because we can teach you something, you communicate within the community forum, but you can also test yourself and get continuing education. So, you don’t really have to leave outside of that ecosystem that we’ve created to get almost anything else. And if there is, again, I made it to where we have a wish list within our forum, to where you can put in what you want, and I work on using my network to build those things.

[00:17:10] TU: I love it. It’s such a cool example of how you’ve been able to monetize the clinical expertise, but also be able to fill a gap that’s out there and be able to serve other pharmacists and healthcare professionals with these resources. I want to dissect a little bit of what you’ve done, because I think for many that are listening that say, “Hey, I think I could monetize my clinical expertise.” And that could be building something like you’ve built it, or I’m also thinking about, a shout out to Kelley Carlstrom, at Kelley C., PharmD that has built an incredible community for oncology practitioners. Or it could be somebody that is thinking, “Hey, I want to contribute to a community that already exist.” One like Jimmy has built or one like Kelley has built. But that can be overwhelming to think about building something.

So, I’m looking at your site and you’ve described all of these products and offerings. You’ve talked about a reference library, a masterclass, community forum, live seminars, a membership feature. You’ve talked about literature reviews which you’ve launched more recently. There’s a membership component to login. You’ve talked about a podcast, a blog, a social community, there’s a lot of pieces that are there. And so, the question is not just the time investment, but also, where do I start? Where do I start?

So, if you take yourself back to the beginning of this journey, and obviously you’ve evolved and built this over time, and you have plans to continue to do so as you just mentioned, where did you start from idea to, “Hey, I just want to take one step forward on this path towards building this vision.” What were those first one or two or three steps that you took to build what is now up on the website?

[00:18:42] JP: I think the big thing, particularly when looking at Pharmacy & Acute Care University, and I call it PACU, for short. The first thing that I did was, I knew that I didn’t know much about building this platform. One of the things I did was actually reading a book called Who Not How by Dan Sullivan, and it really opened my mind. Because the first thing I did was read that book, and I realized that I didn’t have to know everything. Once I got out of that fear, it’s more of a mindset shift. So, I think the first step is just figuring out where your mindset currently is. And ask myself, “What do you want to do? Do you want to educate people? Do you want to connect with people?” For me, one of the things that I enjoyed the most was educating. It’s something that I did within residency first, with just doing the pharmacy pearls. And that was something that I just did for the Emory residence, and I just did – on a Friday, I will get a small topic and go from there. And I realized that that was something I really enjoy, and I thought to myself, if there was a way for me to bring that type of information, that feeling that I got to a wide source of people, and if I can make a business around it, would it be something I can do? And I knew at the time I didn’t know how to do that. But I read that book and it was Who Not How, then I realized, I say okay, “Who do I need to know or who knows this type of platform that I can build?” I got a podcast called The Membership Guys and they would talk about how to build their own memberships and I read a book on that. And then they walked me through step by step.

So, I think the mindset was first and then figuring out that there’s other specialists, and that’s what’s the first step for me, just reading a book. The very first step was reading a book and figuring out that I really enjoy educating. So, the book, the mindset change, and just figuring out what at the simplest level, what do you want to do? And for me, it was figuring out a way to educate and connect with people.

[00:20:40] TU: I love that, Jimmy. And the reason I asked that question, and I can remember my own journey is a lot of people will start with an idea. And if you think about this, like a visual of a roller coaster. You ride that energy high of the idea, you’ve got a solution to a problem that you see out there, and then you start to get into the weeds, right? And some people jump into WordPress, some people jump into logos, some people jump into how am I going to price my products or services or offerings, and that is typically where people get hung up, they might get lost, they might get overwhelmed. And I think the advice you give on mindset shift, and even that next step of a book, it was Who Not How by Dan Sullivan. We’ll link to that in the show notes.

But that’s one tangible step, I can read something that can evolve my thought process, it can open up my eyes to before I get into the weeds, who might help me on this journey along the way and make sure that I can keep that momentum going forward. So, my question building on that, Who Not How is as we look at PACU and what you have offered today, I’ve gotten the impression based on our conversation that it’s not just Jimmy, there’s other people that are involved in the business, whether that’s contributors, whether that’s contractors that you’ve worked with, to help you build out the site and other things. Is that fair? And if so, tell me more about the infrastructure of who’s helping you build the community that you have?

[00:21:54] JP: Absolutely. One of the things that I took my – when I first started off, I didn’t want to make this about me. Because again, at some point, I won’t be able to do all aspects of this. And it became very overwhelming when I thought I had to. So, after I read that book, I said, “Okay, who can – I need a website.” So, it’s like, “Okay, who can build a website?” I went through and looked on a free app, I looked on Fiverr, I looked at all these different platforms, and I just interviewed many different people. They got me the first person and I had a good interaction with that. So okay, how can I get more people? I did trial and error of finding different virtual assistants, finding different contributors. And I came to the point to where I said, okay, I have a basis of people who can web design and develop, and the next step was getting someone who can handle some of my more operational task. So, I hired someone on for that.

And then the next big step that I think, is not only going to help me, but I think is going to help the majority of the community is when I started getting guest writers and guest presenters to come on, and people really enjoyed that. What I start to realize is that many people, they want a platform to present. They want a platform to display what they know, because for one reason or the other, if they don’t have a certain credential, or they don’t have a certain – they didn’t go to a certain school, they may have been overlooked for these presentations, because you only have so many national conferences and ways to present, and people need it for the CV, people need it for their own conference, to be honest. So, I started reaching out and say, and ask some people on Twitter, “Hey, who will be interested in contributing to the platform?” And there’s many ways you can do it. Well, do you like to speak or not?

I noticed that there are certain people who just want to get presentations live. And then I noticed there was a group of people who they wanted to contribute, but they really didn’t want to face shown, they really didn’t want to be heard, they really don’t like their voice. I would say that, a little bit over 60% of my platform can be produced with not any voice, not with video and things of that nature, and people really took hold to that. And now, we’re to the point to where we have a rotation of probably 20 to 30 pharmacists that contribute on a platform. And that’s when things really started to take off. Because I started being more from a managerial and more operational standpoint, and being able to assign work, assign task, and really use my platform to connect with people, versus having to worry about creating the content consistently. And that’s really given me some satisfaction in my personal life. I think I’ve been able to meet more people that I wouldn’t have met if I wouldn’t have reached out to them and be contributors.

[00:24:30] TU: That’s a really important evolution in the business. Because I think that as you’re talking about here, you have 20 to 30 plus contributors, and obviously, your time is a finite resource from your sanity, as well as just hours that are in the day. But I would also argue and I think your point about, “Hey, this can’t just be about Jimmy is a really important one.” Because if you’re solving a problem and filling a need that’s out there in the market, your time was eventually going to become a rate limiting step to what you were going to be able to do in terms of the value you were going to provide to the community.

So, I think as you now building out this infrastructure of contributors, obviously, you’re able to begin to expand the work and the reach of that. Let me ask a follow up to that, and I think maybe some folks might be uncomfortable with that span and control. Yes, I get excited about the mission, and the work can move forward, and I’m not always writing them. But am I losing the potentially the quality or the span and control? How do I oversee all this? So, has that been a challenge for you? Or what have been some systems that you built to help with that?

[00:25:32] JP: Absolutely. One of the things that happened initially, I was getting some work done, and I got medical writers that can help with creating some of this content, and I noticed that it just wasn’t up to par from the advanced practitioner. And I noticed a big difference when a pharmacist create my information versus someone who wasn’t necessarily within pharmacy, or I would say, wasn’t an acute care pharmacy. And I noticed that as I’m getting ready to review this information, it was so much that I had to change and I noticed I need someone who gets it. And it’s someone who understands that and maybe the next limiting step was me editing that material.

So, one of the aspects of how I added on, I say, okay, I’m going to have to contributor who make the content, but also have a contributor who’s my editor, who edit this stuff before I see it and get it cleaner, and go back and forth from that standpoint. And that really helped quite a bit because it made me feel more comfortable with that content moving forward, versus me thinking, I had to change that, and I’m already making content as well. So, that was the big step. But it did make me feel a little uncomfortable again, because some of the things that was important to other people, other editors, wasn’t necessarily as important to me. But I realized it may be important to my audience. And that’s where it really became more prevalent that I needed to make sure I empower my editors, I empower my contributors. Because, again, they’re going to be the ones that build this platform to really be something that’s much bigger than what it currently is now.

[00:27:01] TU: So, as I hear you talk about this journey, and the work and the systems and the processes that you’re building now, I think a natural question is, Jimmy, how are you doing this? So, you’re working full time, you’re working in a large academic medical center, you mentioned a teaching component, which anyone who’s been in a shared faculty role, you know that that in and of itself can feel like more than one job. You’re teaching trainees, I suspect, medical residents, pharmacy residents, pharmacy students, medical students. So, how have you been able to balance this or maybe balance isn’t even a thing, as you’re getting it off the ground. But tell us more about the strategies that you’ve employed, to be able to work on this and move the mission forward. But also, make sure that you’re keeping yourself well throughout the journey?

[00:27:43] JP: I think one of the biggest things that came up was, I had some advice to make sure you make systems for everything. And I didn’t necessarily know what that meant, until I started building this. Because again, when you’re by yourself, you’re the system. But when you start to train other people to do a task, and you realize that you have to give very detailed instructions, or you’re going to spend more time revising things. So, I started using, again, everyone has their own productivity manager, I use the platform Click Up, and that’s where I basically have everything lived. So, everything has his own bucket. And within there, everything has their own sub tasks and different checklists to get a single task done, and I’ve worked with my assistant to where some of the more difficult tasks, I would have her go through it, but then create instructions on each step. Pictures and do think different things like that.

So, when I assign this task with someone else, they can go through and pretty easily get those things done. And once I built up a big base of that, I started using it for everything. So, even for, in my role within my course, every class have a certain lesson plan, every class have a certain setup, a certain thing that need to happen. I have made templates for emails I’m going to send. I’ve made templates for – on top of the discussions that I have. So, all these things have their own system now. And now, it’s been a couple of years where most of the – if I’ve done it two or three times, I just spend a little extra time making the system out of it, and I just use that over and over again. So now, it takes to where I can focus my time on creating new platforms and creating new systems, and all the ones I’ve done in the past, I just reuse that. It’s been phenomenal for me in saving time. And again, almost everything that I do now from the production of a podcast, from creating the conference, I’ve done it now more than once, and it’s easier for me to be able to put those things on autopilot, so to say.

[00:29:39] TU: I love that, Jimmy. I did an episode recently, 265 where we talked about – we’ll link to that in the show notes, 10 lessons learned from employed entrepreneur. And that was one of the things that I talked about, because it’s so important as you think about, again, how can this continue to grow and evolve and the question I encourage folks to think about that are beginning as a solopreneur and looking to build out some of the systems is, if you were to walk away for a month, you’re to take a break, something were to happen that you needed a month off, would the business be able to continue to go on and ideally grow in your absence? That question really forces the – okay, what are all the hats that I’m wearing, and are things documented in a manner that someone else can be trained up? And ideally, over time, people are able to take on those roles so that you can continue to move forward and grow the business.

Two books I would recommend on this concept that Jimmy is talking about here, we’ll link to these in the show notes E-Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber. Great book that talks about the concept that that Jimmy just outlined, and then Procrastinate on Purpose by Rory Vaden talks a little bit about this concept as well that I think folks may find helpful.

Jimmy, my last question for you is, given this as a financial podcast, one of the big upsides I see as a side hustle or a business, especially as people are working full time, is it allows them to supercharge and accelerate their financial goals, whether that be debt repayment, saving for the future, having some extra cash on hand, whatever be the case. So, my question is, how has developing PACU, how has that helped you reach or advance your, your financial goals that you’re working on?

[00:31:14] JP: Absolutely. I think one of the big things is during this same timeframe reading and develop myself for this, I’ve learned where it’s the best to place money and how to have money work for you. And the biggest things as additional income start come again, I realized that, okay, I could really look to something to where it can not only supplement income, but potentially with greater success, being able to kind of take over part of that. So, it’s really helped me – the ideal of retirement has completely changed my mind. It used to be an age, but now it’s a number.

So, when I talk to my family, and I talk to everyone around me, there’s a certain number that I had to get to per month, to where I feel that I’ll be comfortable enough to not be full time anymore. I know what that number is, for part time. I know what that number is for 0.75 FTE, and it’s really changed my mindset. So, the biggest benefit to me is understanding that not only can money work for me in other aspects that will benefit from PACU, but it also, is going to allow me more time to spend time with family, to travel, do things of that nature. So, it’s actually given me a different approach to what retirement looks like, and really, to feel comfortable in that space. So, that’s the big thing for me, is spending more time with family, and change the mindset from when to and what that number looks like.

[00:32:35] TU: It’s great stuff, and I think as you talk about, it’s a number, not an age. We’ve talked about that on the show, and one, it gets me excited for your journey is not only is it about being able to spend more time with your family and friends and enjoy the experiences you want, but also connecting to our conversation just a moment ago, because you’re building the systems and processes on where it will go, the mission of what you’re working on, because you’re going to have other folks that are involved. And so, as you’re spending more time with family and friends, and enjoying those experiences, the company, the mission, the work, can still advance, even in your absence. So, this has been awesome. So excited for you, Jimmy and what you have a future in your community. We’ll link again to the PACU website. Where is the best place that listeners can go to find you and to follow your journey?

[00:33:20] JP: I think Twitter is going to be the best place to catch me, where I’m the most active, @PharmD_intheED. That’s where I spend a decent amount of my time. Again, if you’re interested in the PACU platform, we have platforms on all the social media, so LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, all those things we have platforms there. So again, I’ll be aware of any information that’s coming into those platforms, and Twitter is probably the easiest place to catch me. Again, @PharmD_intheED.

[00:33:47] TU: Awesome. Thank you so much, Jimmy for taking time to come on the show. I appreciate it.

[00:33:51] JP: Tim, it has been an absolute pleasure. Again, we follow you guys for a while and this is something that again, it’s really, I’m looking forward to.

[00:33:57] TU: Thank you

[OUTRO]

[00:33:58] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analysis expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 281: The Connection Between Finances and Fitness with The Fit Pharmacist


Dr. Adam Martin, The Fit Pharmacist, talks about practical strategies you can implement to help you thrive, five areas of the SMILE framework for living to your full potential, and the most effective antidote and prevention to disempowering feelings.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Adam Martin works with people to write their scripts for success using proper nutrition, stress management, and the power of a positive attitude. He earned his doctorate of pharmacy degree from the University of Pittsburgh School of Pharmacy, and with over 7 years of experience working full-time in the community pharmacy setting, he’s passionate about empowering other pharmacists and pharmacy students to put the health back into healthcare through leading by example in their professional practice to not only live their best lives but to

inspire others along the way to do the same. He pairs his PharmD with his expertise as a certified personal trainer and nutrition consultant to guide self-care back into healthcare.

Dr. Martin is the founder of The Fit Pharmacist, LLC. As a National Speakers Association (NSA) Professional Speaker, Adam’s core passion is traveling to pharmacy schools across the world to speak to pharmacy students, sharing practical plans of action that will empower them to maximize their careers and create a competitive edge in the profession to maximize their success and degree of impact. 

He has made his life’s work showing people how to take control of their overall wellness, sharing SimpleSolutions through his writing for numerous pharmacy publications including PharmacyTimes magazine, and is the author of the best-selling book “Rx: You: The Pharmacist’s Survival Guide for Managing Stress & Fitting in Fitness” as well as “Gen-Z Pharmacist: Dominate Pharmacy School & Script Your Dream Career.” He is the host of The Fit Pharmacist Healthcare Podcast, sharing successes and practical strategies from the most successful minds in the profession of pharmacy with a new episode released every week. 

With a passion for learning and serving his patients, he’s an inaugural member of the Pennsylvania Pharmacists Association’s Leadership Excellence and Advocacy Development (LEAD) program, and strives to serval the global community of pharmacy as a medical missionary, having served in Honduras and Panama as a pharmacist in the field. In 2019, he was named the “Most Influential Pharmacist” by SingleCare’s Best of the Best Pharmacy Awards.

Episode Summary

In this week’s episode, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, is joined by Dr. Adam Martin, The Fit Pharmacist. Dr. Adam Martin is known for working with people to write their scripts for success using proper nutrition, stress management, and the power of a positive attitude. In today’s show, Tim and Adam discuss the eBook, “5 to Thrive Healthcare Habits,” and how those mindset habits for thriving in life mirror the mindset for financial fitness. Adam shares how he came up with the SMILE framework, how to operate from a thriving versus surviving mindset, and how to form a realistic work-life balance with practical strategies that anyone can implement into their lives. Tim and Adam work through the five areas of the SMILE framework, created to help others live with intention and unlock their full potential by providing examples and demonstrating the concepts with real-life examples. 

The SMILE framework consists of the following: 

  • Shift Your Focus
  • Move and Groove
  • Identify the Best You
  • Let Loose and Celebrate
  • Electrify Your Spirit

Together they discuss what Adam calls the most effective, instant antidote and prevention to disempowering feelings. Adam shares a technique, “GRIN (Gratitude Ripple In the Now),” for celebrating and igniting joy.

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRO]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. 

This week, I had a chance to welcome a friend and colleague, Dr. Adam Martin, The Fit Pharmacist, to talk about Five to Thrive Health Care Habits. Highlights from the show include Adam and I talking through practical strategies you can implement to help you not just get by or survive but to thrive, the five areas of the SMILE framework to live with intention at your full potential, and the most effective instant antidote, as well as prevention, to disempowering feelings.

Now, before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 280 households across the country. YFP Planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized to the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call by visiting yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. 

Okay, let’s jump into my interview with The Fit Pharmacist, Dr. Adam Martin. 

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:21] TU: Dr. Adam Martin, The Fit Pharmacist, welcome.

[00:01:24] AM: What’s up, Tim. How you doing today?

[00:01:26] TU: Man, I’m doing great. How’s your week been, and how are you doing?

[00:01:30] AM: Dude, it’s Fit Pharmacist Friday. Let’s go. Let’s go.

[00:01:35] TU: Let’s do it. So you recently published a resource, and we’ll leave a link to this as well, Five to Thrive Healthcare Habits, simple and quick ways to use what you have to live a lifestyle you dream about. It caught my attention because of how much overlap there was between those five habits and what I often think about as it relates to the financial plan. So I’m going to dig into each one of those in more detail. 

This has been a long time in the making. You and I had the opportunity to present together at the OPA Annual Meeting last year in Columbus. That was on fire, right? That was an awesome session that we did together, and I’ve thought so many times, when you and I have a chance to converse and dig deep, like there is so much synergy between a lot of the work that you’re doing and the focus on the mindset in the healthcare and how we often need to, should be thinking about the financial plan as well. 

So this is going to be a party of sorts. It always is when Dr. Adam Martin is on the line. So before we get into those five habits, we’ll walk through them one by one, I don’t want to just gloss over the significance of operating from a mindset of thriving, rather than just getting by and surviving. Since the focus of our time together is going to be all about thriving, tell us more about why that is center to what you’re doing and what you’re talking about and how you’ve developed that mindset and learn that through your own experiences.

[00:03:05] AM: Absolutely, Tim. Well, first off, thanks so much for the opportunity. Like you said, it’s always fire getting together, especially in person, but we’ll roll with this. But, yeah, OPA was awesome. First live event since COVID, I believe, for both of us in a long time. So that’s kind of where that idea stemmed from because there are so many overlaps with wellness and fitness and also your money because you won’t feel very well if you’re broke or in debt, so it just kind of goes with that through line. 

But the reason that I made this, and just so y’all know, this is a free e-book, so I’m not selling anything, this is such a needed resource. I created it, like put a ton of time, made it simply applicable because there’s so much information out there that, yeah, it’s great. But how are you going to apply it? 

[00:03:54] TU: That’s right. 

[00:03:54] AM: For example, we all want to get healthier, right? So we go and hire a nutritionist, dietician, whatever. That’s outside of our normal, and they say be mindful when you eat. Chew your salad 30 times before you eat. We don’t get lunch breaks. What are you talking about? 

So when you take the science, the research, and you say, “How can I practically apply this in a simple way,” because here’s the reality, you ain’t got more time. You don’t got any time. You ain’t got more things, and you’ve got no room left on your to-do list. So how are you going to make a change that you know you need to make and you want to make when you don’t have time, when you don’t have money, and you don’t know what’s going to actually work and what’s a scam? 

I took all the things that I’ve learned in my journey in coaching my clients and working with some of the best in the world of mindset of fitness, of nutrition, and I condensed them down into a practical framework that is easy to understand, and more importantly, easy to implement, that actually gets results. So that’s kind of where that came from, from the need of burnout and stress and how do I manage a work-life balance. There’s such a need for it. That’s where it came from. 

[00:05:12] TU: That’s why they call you The Tony Robbins of Healthcare right there, right? That is why. I think that the practical implementation is huge, and we see this every day from the financial side. I live it in my own personal financial journey. We can have these big lofty goals with big numbers. Until we break that down to something that means something to us today, that we can put our arms around, that we can grasp, that we can implement, that we can get some momentum and wins on, those are just nebulous, big, scary goals that we can have somebody coach us and say, “You know what, Adam? You need $3.5 million in your retirement account to save.” 

What does that mean for today and how we can practically implement this? Again, I just love the synergy between the work that you’re doing and what we’re obviously talking about over at YFP. So let’s jump into these five habits to thrive, and the acronym here to remember is the SMILE framework, okay?

[00:06:10] AM: That’s right. 

[00:06:10] TU: S is shift your focus. M is move and groove. We’ll talk about these each individually. I is identify the best you. L is let loose and celebrate, and E is electrify your spirit. So number one, shift your focus. In this habit, you talk about how we often set a goal. It could be around losing weight. It could be around healthier eating, connecting to our community, in our case, improving our financial situation. Despite knowing what to do, we don’t do it. The choices that we make that do or don’t lead us to our goals often revolve around our state of mind. 

So my question for you here, Adam, is why are we drawn into these negative thought patterns and habits that can put us in ruts and prevent us from achieving our goals, even when we don’t want that to be the case?

[00:07:02] AM: Excellent questions. Why don’t we do that? We’re like – It’s like in the moment. We know we’re not supposed to do this, but we’re doing it anyway. So big picture, I just want to simplify this. The reason it’s called the SMILE framework is that regardless of your nutrition, your job, your career, your personal brand, all of it, the reason you do anything is so that you become happy. You want a happy life. What’s the most characteristic thing that would kind of show that someone’s happy? A smile. While this might seem mute, it is absolutely true. We all want to be happy. That’s why we do anything. By being happy you SMILE. 

The reason I did this is to make it simple, so that you can see that you are focused on the outcome. You’re focused on what you want. A lot of times, when we get overwhelmed or we’re pulled in all these directions, for example, what do I do with my finances? The world’s going into recession? What do I do with this? What I do with that? What’s the best workout plan? What’s the best nutrition plan? How do I manage stress? The question you have to ask is what is your outcome? What do you want? 

That comes right into your question, ironically, because that’s the answer. The first kind of pin of that SMILE framework is S, to shift your focus. What you need to ask yourself is what do I want? What is the outcome that you want? If you reverse engineer that, it will lead you upstream to realize that it all starts with the quality of question that you ask. To your point or question, again, the answer of why do we ask questions that get us so worked up, that get us so stressed out and focused on what’s wrong? It’s because that’s our survival brain. 

Here’s something that I want you to hear and understand. Your brain does not exist to make you financially successful, to make you happy, or to make you thrive or live your best life. Your brain exists to keep you alive. That’s it. So when you’re taking a financial risk for a potential gain, that is interpreted as dangerous. 

[00:09:11] TU: Scary. Yup.

[00:09:12] AM: Threats to your survival. 

[00:09:14] TU: That’s right. 

[00:09:15] AM: Your subconscious is going to hijack you and say, “Oh, no. That could mean death. Let’s not do that.” Going to work out, that is painful, right? I mean –

[00:09:25] TU: Literally tearing muscles. Yes. 

[00:09:26] AM: After not going for a while, that is painful. That is a threat to survival. So whatever area of your life you want to improve, you inherently know that when you start that process, that it is uncomfortable. We’ve all heard that phrase, nothing grows from comfort zones. So you have to recognize that you will have resistance from the good intention that your brain is trying to protect you. So don’t be hard on yourself and say, “Why is my brain so stupid?” It’s trying to keep you alive because that’s what it’s designed to do. So you have to identify the purpose. You have to identify what you want, and then recognize there’s a gap there that is going to require your active participation.

[00:10:09] TU: Yeah. Adam, my mind is spinning with the financial connection here. So a great example, I just mentioned a big scary retirement number before, $3.5 million. That often is not the question we want to focus on. So we’ve been trained societally through a lot of financial information commercials to ask the question of how much do you need in your bank account to retire, right? It’s an important question, but it’s not the question that we need to be asking ourselves, right? 

The question we need to be asking ourselves is what does it mean to live a wealthy life, not just in dollars and cents, right? How can our financial plan support and get us towards living a wealthy life? Why do we even care about this topic of money to begin with? Money is a tool that derives value, only because you and I and the rest of the world say it has value. Objectively, by itself, it doesn’t have value, right? So why does money matter to you? What does it mean to live a wealthy life? How can we support a financial plan that aligns with that? 

Because to your point about some of the pain, it’s no different with our finances. If I say that, I want to be able to save money for the future because of X, Y, and Z, and that’s a compelling reason, well, guess what? That means I’m going to have to not spend it today to save it for the future. There’s pain in that, right? There’s pain. So I love how you focus. Again, we’ll link to this, so folks can download it and read it in its entirety. 

But you have a whole page, maybe two pages. I remember at least one page of questions that we can be asking ourselves, right? Better questions, give us better information that we can live with more intentionality. I think that’s so important here, when we talk about shifting your focus. So that’s habit number one, shifting your focus. 

Number two is we work to the SMILE framework. The M is move and groove, and you argue that this is the most effective instant antidote, as well as prevention to disempowering feelings. That’s a pretty strong statement. Tell us more. Why is that the case, and what does this practically look like?

[00:12:14] AM: Absolutely. So without a doubt, if you’re in a funk mood, if you’re scared, if you’re terrified, the fastest way to break out of that state is to move your body, the fastest way. You can do it immediately. For example, if you ever had like an argument, a confrontation, or you’ve heard the phrase, “Go walk it off,” there’s truth behind that. So this comes to go like, well, if we just move. What are you just saying? Like run away from your problems? Running away from your problems burns zero calories, okay? 

But what you have to recognize is that when you move your body, you are changing your state. So I’m not saying go run a marathon. But I’m saying, for example, if you’re out in public, and I told you that I would give you 50 grand if you could tell me which of the people in public was depressed, I guarantee you could do it. You’re not a psychiatrist. You’re not a therapist. You don’t have ESP. But how can you see that? Because when they’re walking, their heads’ down. They’re walking slow. They’re chests in, right? They’re kind of like this. From someone that has overcome that, I can tell you, that’s absolutely spot on. 

But if you – If I do the same to the other side, I say, “What if I gave you 50 grand to identify the most confident person that you encounter?” You can already see in your mind what that’s like. They’re walking with purpose and intention. Their shoulders are back. Their chest is out. Maybe they’ve got like a little swag in their step. It’s because that motion is inducing the emotion. If you look at emotion, I don’t want to feel bad. I don’t want to feel better. I want to be happy. I want to feel fulfilled. Emotion is energy in motion. So to snap that, it’s very simple. Change how you’re carrying yourself, moving yourself.

Now, to the practical implementation part. Well, Adam, how do I just snap out of it if I’m having such a bad day, week, month? Music. Let me ask y’all a question. Have you ever worked in a community pharmacy or just been out in public and on the PA system, on the radio in the store, a song comes on? Maybe some Gloria Estefan, if we want to throw it back. All of the sudden, you see Granny Smith in Aisle 5, tapping her foot to the point where she’s like, “[inaudible 00:14:38] pop out or what?” She can’t help it. She might not even be aware of it. 

Everybody is moving, tapping their feet, bobbing their head. Music is the fastest way to change your emotion. You can do it without even being aware of it. So that’s the fastest way to snap out of your state. Play a song that makes you jive.

[00:14:59] TU: So are we talking dance party in the pharmacy? Is that what we’re doing here?

[00:15:02] AM: So true story. When I started as a pharmacist back in 2012, it was, I mean, busy store, like super busy. When I retired there in December, we were doing over 600 scripts a day on Monday with no pharmacist overlap. That’s the reality. So there’s a lot of stress as you can imagine. So in order to kind of refocus, I would actually create something free on Pandora called Happy Radio. So whenever I noticed stress coming, the levels of tension going up, I would literally play that. 

That’s where – If you ever heard the term club pharmacy, I coined that term back in 2012 because it’s how you frame your environment. If you say, for example, I have to go to work today, how does that make you feel? Versus I get to go to club pharmacy today. That’s going to interrupt your state. What is he talking about? What, like Sam’s Club? Like what? Yeah. So you frame it, and then you entertain it, and you do something different. That’s how you kind of snap out of the norm so that you can rescript what you want to get.

[00:16:06] TU: I love that. I think some people, this is more natural than others. For me, it’s music. You talk about the idea of creating your playlist. Have it ready, right? Walking is a huge daily rhythm or routine. It just provides like, for me, some perspective, some space, and some peace of mind as well. So find that piece that really helps you. That’s number two, move and groove. 

Number three, the I in the SMILE framework is identify the best you. What do you mean by this, identify the best you, and how can individuals work towards accomplishing this?

[00:16:42] AM: Excellent question. When it comes to psychology, the most defended aspect of the human condition is your identity. People will defend that to the death. Look at any religious war that’s ever been fought. Look at anyone that’s done anything drastic. Look at people who refuse to do anything. What do they say? I’m not that kind of person. That’s not who I am. Your identity is the strongest driving force in your psychology. 

When we’re talking about goals with finances, with fitness, why are you doing that? Why do you want to save three and a half million? Yes, that is, obviously, a good goal. But what is the means behind that? What does money mean to you? What will that afford you? There’s got to be some sort of compelling future because the reality that we all know is that whatever your goal is, whether it’s small or large, think big, by the way. Whatever your goal is, you are going to have resistance. You’re going to come across adversity. You’re going to be exhausted. You’re going to start with a lot of motivation. 

But if you’re not committed to exactly with a perfect picture in your mind to visualize exactly why you’re putting in the time, why you’re putting in the work, why you’re sacrificing a comfortable lifestyle, and instead going after it, facing rejection to make calls, to grow whatever you’re trying to achieve. You have to have a clear, compelling future that pulls you towards what you want. Keyword, you, what you want. Not what your friends want. Not what you think you should want or should have or should do. Quit shoulding all over yourself, please. You want something that is genuinely authentic to what makes you happy. That’s the secret. 

[00:18:43] TU: That last point is huge in the financial services space, right? Because I talked to people weekly. I experienced this myself as well, where often our goals aren’t truly our goals. The reflection of what we feel like should be our goals. Or we interpret it as someone else says it should be our goals. 

One thing you said there I want to dissect a little bit more, you kind of mentioned like, by the way, think big. As you said that, my mind went down this path how often the goals I hear from individuals, guilty as charged, no judgment to anyone else, we often limit those. I’m wondering why? So for example, right? If someone says, “Hey, I really have a goal to give philanthropically or to give,” like usually we’ll put a qualifier on that like 3, 5, 10 percent of my income, or I really want to save for retirement. 

It’s a big number. Don’t get me wrong. But we’re kind of defaulting to like what is a limit low number that is acceptable or that we’ve heard elsewhere, and our mind doesn’t naturally go towards, well, if instead of making $120,000 a year, and I gave 10% of that or $12,000, what if I made $500,000 a year? 30% of that or – Why doesn’t our mind go in that direction? Why are we kind of defaulting to this low norm, if that makes sense?

[00:20:11] AM: Excellent question. So another thing that we all know of, and I want to kind of bring this back home, is the only thing that’s going to stop you is you. Not the economy, not your circumstances, you. When I mean you, what I mean is your fear. While there’s lots of specific fears with everyone in specific situations, all humans have two fears. There’s two fears that are the most common fears, the fear of not being enough and the fear of being unlovable. 

When you’re looking at, “I want to set a goal,” if you say like, “Oh, this would be a nice increase.” Let’s say, for example, you’re making 120 grand a year, and you want to go up to 150. Just a little bit. Well, if I set 500 grand a month, that is a huge jump. That is a risk that if I don’t get it, it might mean that I’m not enough. It might mean that I can’t be loved because I didn’t get this. It’s not what’s going on. It’s not your circumstance. It’s the meaning that you give to your circumstance that is the driving force of whether you’re going to face everything and rise or fall into that fear. It’s all based on the meaning that you give something that becomes the outcome.

[00:21:29] TU: In that example, we’re essentially trying to set ourselves up to avoid failure or not even actual failure. Our perception of what that failure would be in that. So that’s interesting. Okay. That’s number three, identify the best you. Habit number four in the SMILE framework is let loose and celebrate. You say, “You need to party more, like seriously.” You will feel like you’re losing when you’re actually winning, if you do not celebrate your wins. My question here is why do we not celebrate our wins, in the same way that we dwell on our losses?

[00:22:03] AM: Let me paint a scenario that those of you watching or listening might resonate with. You work for years, for months, for, let’s say, getting a job as a pharmacist, and you get the job. You get the email. You’re on stage, getting a promotion. As they’re calling your name and reading your bio, you say, “What’s next?” You get the promotion. Then you say, “I’m going to go after this goal.” Let’s say that you launch a book. Let’s say you’re trying to get your name out there and build your personal brand. So you decide that you’re going to publish a book. So it gets released. What’s next? What’s next? What’s next? You’re so focused in the future that you’re living in a state of anxiety. 

Now, here’s something that I want to just share, as far as emotion, like why do I feel this way? What’s wrong with me? Those kinds of things that get us twisted. If you’re living in the past, you’re living in depression. If you’re focused on the future, you’re living in anxiety. But when you’re focused on the present, it is a gift, which is why it’s called the present. The attitude of gratitude is honestly the antidote for fear. 

Try this. If you’re angry, frustrated, or ticked off, I want you to think about and just look around and say one thing that you’re grateful for. Then say another and then another. It is literally impossible to be both grateful and angry or upset or overwhelmed at the same time. It is impossible. So the antidote to this, really, is to be grateful at your progress. 

Now, there is a thin line for this, and I think the best way to do it is to live it and really go after your goals because on one hand, you don’t want to rest on your laurels and take your foot off the gas, because if you’re not growing, you’re dying. So you want to constantly be pursuing the best version of you. But if you’re living in that what’s next, what’s next, what’s next, here’s the reality. You will feel like you’re losing when you’re actually winning, if you don’t take time to note how far you’ve come. 

[00:24:16] TU: 100%. Yes. 

[00:24:19] AM: That’s really it. So you say like, “Oh, Adam. There’s so much going on. I don’t know. How do I be grateful? I’ve heard this before. It’s not practical,” blah, blah, blah. So we’re going to go with the grin, with the SMILE framework, and stay on theme here. I actually found this out of a necessity when I was in a really dark time in my life many years ago because I heard this over and over and over from so many successful people. Gratitude is the antidote to everything, all this sort of stuff. 

I woke up in an anxiety attack, and I thought, how can I start this gratitude thing? So I was laying in bed, and I said, “What can I be grateful for right here right now?” So I just rolled my feet around like, “Wow, these sheets are really comfortable. I’m really grateful to have comfortable sheets.” “Wow, I’m on a comfortable mattress. I’m really grateful to have this mattress and not be laying on the floor.” “Wow, I have my own bedroom. I’m grateful to be in this bedroom.” Oh, my goodness. I own a house. Wow, I own a house, and it’s in a neighborhood that’s quiet. Just be quiet and listen. I can’t hear anything. It’s so quiet. I live in the city.” 

It became a ripple effect from wherever you are in the moment. State and feel and focus on wherever you are in the moment so that it’s real. It’s one thing to say that you’re grateful for something that might have happened. But when you can be lying in bed and feel your soft sheets, it gives evidence and makes that real. When you’re in your room, and you like peace and quiet, and you just listen to the silence, that is evidence that, yes, this is something I can be grateful. 

So the acronym I made for this is to GRIN. It’s the gratitude ripple in the now. So wherever you are, just pause and start thinking like do you have clothes on? Those probably. I mean, not everyone in the world has clothes, right? Are you standing somewhere that is safe? Is it raining outside, but you’ve got to shelter over your head? Just start where you are, and ripple from where you are outwards, and just watch what happens inside. That is truly the secret. But it’s so simple, people throw it out like, “Oh.” It’s so simple, it can’t fix my complex problem. The antidote really is that simple, and it’s so simple that it actually works.

[00:26:40] TU: Yeah. I really liked that. You and I have talked about this before. This has been transformative in my own life. So I am notorious for living in the future. Living in the present is not my jam. I will say I’m not a big dweller of the past. So that is something I’m grateful for. But what I have found is like what you describe. Publishing a book, what’s next? Giving a speaking event, what’s next? Achieving this milestone, what’s next? It’s not natural for me to really pause and be present in the moment. 

But the gratitude piece, what I have found is, and you described it perfectly, an example, when you’re laying there in bed in the midst of an anxiety attack, as you’re going through a gratitude, exercise, and reflection, it forces you to be present in the moment. It shifts your perspective and focus while you’re there as well. 

I think the trick for this, in my opinion, which you’ve really addressed here with the gratitude rip on the now, the GRIN acronym, is it doesn’t have to be like a one time in the morning, I’m going to do a gratitude exercise for five minutes. This could be a quick reminder as you’re going throughout the day because as you highlight, I mean, at any given moment of the day, we can all stop and find one thing that we’re thankful for in that moment. So I love that. 

[00:27:57] AM: One caveat to that, I don’t want to say that thinking in the future is a bad thing. You want to always be planning. This is one of the biggest sources of anxiety that pharmacists have. When you’re in pharmacy school, your goal is to graduate and get a job. So when you graduate and get a job, if you don’t have goals, you have a problem. That’s where a lot of pharmacy students transitioning to pharmacists life are. 

I don’t want to downplay how valuable forward thinking is. Just make sure that as you make those milestones, you pause, you note them, and you celebrate them however you actually can feel that celebration of your progress in the process.

[00:28:37] TU: I love that. Great input. Number five in the SMILE framework is electrify your spirit. It’s clear as we’re talking that consistency is the key here when we talk about the SMILE framework and the importance of a daily routine. You say in the e-book, “Stand guard at the doorway of your mind at the most critical time of the day, the beginning.” Tell us more about why standing guard at the beginning of the day is that important, and what are some of the habits that folks can implement to help here?

[00:29:07] AM: If you ever woke up, and you stub your toe, and then you realize that you’re late, and you get a red light, and then your tech doesn’t show up, or someone comes and yells at you, and what do you say? Wow, this day keeps going from bad to worse. It is a ripple effect from what you focus on, literally taking all that we’ve looked at through the SMILE framework, starting with shifting your focus. 

When you wake up in the morning, you have a clean slate. You are starting with a brand new bank account of time for those 24 hours. If the first thing you look at or think about is your to-do list or the news or all the things that you wish you did, then that’s going to ripple and transcend the whole mood of your day. So it literally – You all know this is true, but we all do it. 

Again, simple doesn’t mean easy, especially if this is a habit that you’ve had for a long time, the simplest thing, to stand guard at the door of your mind is to not touch your phone for the first half hour, hour, whatever that might be. For me, it’s two hours because it’s that sacred of time. Because think about it. People want to get your attention, news highlights. They’re not talking about new puppies that were given out for free. They’re talking about stabbings and murder and death. 

[00:30:35] TU: Push notification. Push notification. 

[00:30:37] AM: Yeah, yeah. All that stuff. It’s grabbing your attention. Your eyeballs are the new real estate. That’s what everyone is after. The best way to get them, again, coming back to an original point, is your brain, and your brain is wired to keep you alive. So it is going to be focused on any potential threat as a means to protect you. 

So knowing that, that’s how media and everyone uses that fact of your physiology to grab your attention, to lead with danger and all these negative things. So if you can just give yourself an hour to instead of let other people direct how your day is going to go and really own your hour and decide and declare that I am going to fill the first hour, half hour, whatever you allow, that that first fruit of your day needs to be given and stewarded in a way that it sets the tone and ripples you towards the compelling future that you want. Instead of I have to avoid all this stuff that I don’t want. 

Really start simple. The phone is the most effective thing, and that’s hard for a lot of people. I remember when I first did this years ago. It was like an addiction, and it’s just how we are in society. But it’s become normalized to the point where no one really questions it. But when you realize that by doing that, you’re giving control of your mind and focus to other people that just want your eyeballs, and want you to click and scroll and all this stuff, it puts you in the driver’s seat so that you can now intentionally be present on what you want to do. 

You can start simple. This is my routine. This has evolved over the years. I start off by saying, “Good morning, Jesus Christ. Holy Spirit, fill me and guide me, so I can be a blessing in your way through this day. Today is going to be an amazing, outstanding day.” Then I take a five-minute freezing cold shower, I read my devotional, I jump in the Bible, and then I’m off on my 45-minute walk. That’s how I start. 

Now, that might not be practical for you. You might genuinely like realistically have five minutes. In those five minutes, don’t be on your phone and start with the gratitude ripple, the GRIN. So start where you are to start listing things you’re grateful for. I promise, if you do that every day for 30 days, you’ll feel like a totally different person.

[00:33:11] TU: Yeah. It’s about winning the start of the day, whether that’s five minutes or three hours, right? Some people, maybe there’s more flexibility and time, whatever. Many folks, that’s not the case. Winning the day and the momentum and, as you mentioned, the ripple effect that can come from that. I love that. 

Mine has evolved over time, and there are certain seasons where I’m humming every day. There’s other seasons where I kind of fall off track. You give yourself some grace. You get back on. But I consistently come back to a noticeable, palpable difference. I’m sure Jess and the boys would say that they can see it as well when I start and win the day. Because what I have found, and this has taken a while to really, I think, realize and work through, is that things can just begin to quickly unravel, and you throw your hands up, if things aren’t going in the steps I think they should go. 

What I’ve really, especially with my four boys, is that it is rare, very rare, actually, that their behavior changes in any given day. It’s my perspective, patience, and mindset, coming into my interactions with them. When I walk out of my home office door, that first two to five minutes, which is on me and my responsibility, sets the tone for the rest of the evening, the rest of the evening. For the longest time, I’d kind of throw my hands up a little bit of a victim mentality of like, “Ah, man. They are so loud, Adam. They are so loud. Can’t they just be quiet?” It’s like I remember I had this conversation with my wife one time. It’s like, “They really don’t change a lot in any given day.” 

I mean, sure, there’s a behavior thing here there, but like it really is like my mindset, my preparation, my awareness. That, obviously, is talking more about the second half of the day. But same can be said, I think, for the first part of the day as well. 

[00:35:04] AM: Yes. Tim, you said something that was such a gem, I have to bring it to the forefront. You said, “I have to give myself some grace.” I really want everyone listening to this to understand, embody, and implement that. Because if you’re listening to this, chances are you’re not like – You’re going after the best version of you. 

I mean, if you’re listening to a podcast, if you’re in this community, it’s because you want more. You know you’re destined to be more, to give more, to do more, to contribute. Not just to improve your life but to be an impact on those that you are blessed to influence. That’s ultimate leadership is influence. So when you’re in this journey, remember that it is not about a destination. It’s about who you become in the process. It is about progress, not perfection. 

So if you’re wanting to be a good leader, if you’re wanting to be the best employee, wherever you are in your career, if you want to receive something like grace, because we all are very human, the best way to receive something is to give it. To the point of finances, so many people, one of the reasons that they want to save, and call me on this, if I’m wrong, Tim. You’re the pro of the pros. One of the reasons that people give to save money and make more is so that they can have more to give away. They can contribute to their church, whatever it might be. True or true. 

[00:36:36] TU: True, true. Yep. 

[00:36:38] AM: So here’s the challenge. This is very humbling, but this is literally the cheat codes for life. This is how it works. Whenever you identify whatever it is you want to receive, you must become it and go give it because, especially with finance, here’s the reality. If you won’t give a dime out of a dollar, you’ll never give a million out of a billion. So it’s not I’ll wait until. It’s how can you give from where you are right now. Because whatever you give will come back to you tenfold. 

Now, that’s not the reason that you give. But the secret, the life hack, the behind the scenes truth is that the secret to living is giving. When you embody that and say, “If I want this to come in my life, how can I become it,” and then use that to give and serve others, your life will never be the same, and you will actually start to find that you are smiling more than you ever thought possible.

[00:37:39] TU: Oh, man. That is so true and so much wisdom in that that I think we can fall into that trap, and it is a trap to think that in that day in the future, a future state when I’ve got X in the bank, at that point, like I’ll be ready in a position to give. To your point about building that habit and that muscle and making that a priority, so important. 

There you have it, the SMILE framework. As always, Dr. Adam Martin, it has been a pleasure. I’m so grateful for you as a friend and a colleague. For folks that don’t yet know you and follow your work, which I think are few and far between listening to this, but for folks that don’t, where’s the best place that they can go to stay in touch with you?

[00:38:22] AM: Thank you, Tim. So, so honored. So I’ve had the honor and privilege of working with and helping many pharmacists and students grow their personal brands all across the world. Your brand is my favorite because you embody the principles and values. You are the best steward of your gifts I’ve ever seen in my life. So it is such an honor. 

[00:38:40] TU: Thank you. 

[00:38:41] AM: I just want to give a shameless plug of real talk real real quick there. But if you want to see more smiling faces and goofy things, feel free. The best place to interact with me is on Instagram, all one word, @thefitpharmacist. I also have a podcast that I’ve been running for a little over five years now a new episode every week. It is The Fit Pharmacist Healthcare Podcast. That’s on your favorite podcast platforms, iHeart Radio, iTunes, Spotify. You name it, I’m there. So feel free to subscribe on there if you want more content, also on LinkedIn. But, yeah, feel free to interact and engage. 

But definitely make sure, if you’re not for some crazy reason, following Tim and Your Financial Pharmacist because he has such a gift for connecting and nurturing people that have an incredible spirit and value within them. That he invests and nurtures so that they can then become the people that go and nurture and gift them. Just an amazing quality that you have, Tim, and I’m just really inspired by you personally. So seriously, thank you for who you are and who you continue to become.

[00:39:50] TU: Awesome, man. That means the world to me, really, guys. I really appreciate that, and I’m so grateful for you and appreciate you taking the time to come on here. Thanks, Adam. 

[00:39:59] AM: An honor. Thank you. 

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[00:40:01] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you, again, for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week. 

[END]

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