Insurance / Podcast

YFP 329: Medicare Selection & Optimization: Common Mistakes, Tips & Tricks

Posted on October 12, 2023October 11, 2023 by Tim U

On this week’s podcast, sponsored by APhA, Certified Insurance Counselor, Insurance Agent, and Medicare Specialist, Josh Workman, joins the show to cover Medicare 101 and considerations for selecting your Medicare coverage plan.

Episode Summary

Many people (including pharmacists!) aren’t fully informed about Medicare, the options they need to consider, and the pros and cons of each option. That’s why, in this week’s episode of the podcast, we brought on Certified Insurance Counselor, Insurance Agent, and Medicare Specialist, Josh Workman to give us a Medicare 101! Tuning in, you’ll hear about Josh’s role in the world of helping seniors navigate Medicare benefits, options for coverage, and the five main differences between Medicare Advantage and Supplement plans. Finally, he shares some words of wisdom for pharmacists struggling to answer Medicare questions for themselves, family members, and even clients.

About Today’s Guest

Located in the Akron Ohio area Josh Workman has been an insurance agent since 2010 with Medicare planning being his main area of focus. He started his career with Nationwide, but then moved to an Independent agency in 2014. Aside from helping individuals who are new to Medicare, he also works with professionals such as care facility coordinators, doctors and pharmacists as they assist their patients with Medicare plan decisions. Medicare can be extremely confusing so instead of the salesman angle, Josh takes an educational approach when helping his clients with Medicare Supplements, Part D Plans and Medicare Advantage Plans. One of his favorite parts of the job is teaching Medicare 101 classes to people who are new to Medicare.

Key Points From the Episode

What Josh does in the Medicare world.
The basics of Medicare and the timelines for selecting coverage.
Two main options for coverage when going onto Medicare.
Five differences between Advantage Coverage and Supplement Coverage.
A quick summary of the two plans and the pros and cons of each.
The kinds of plans Josh sees people choosing and why.
Some of the dangers of being influenced by marketing when choosing a Medicare plan.
Mistakes that Josh sees people making when buying a plan.
Advice for leveraging the help of a Medicare agent for pharmacists.

Episode Highlights

“A lot of people make an assumption that original Medicare – Part A and Part B, includes prescription drug coverage. It actually does not. The only way you can get Part D is through an insurance company.” — Josh Workman [0:10:46]

“If you have to pay medical bills, if you have a network, you’re probably going to be paying less for your insurance because you’re subjecting yourselves to these medical bills and to this network.” — Josh Workman [0:15:21]

“Medicare Advantage is less expensive. There’s a network and there’s medical bills. Supplement is more expensive, but it doesn’t have a network and it doesn’t have medical bills.” — Josh Workman [0:20:20]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, for each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, I welcome to the show Josh Workman, a Certified Insurance Counselor, Insurance Agent, and Medicare Specialist.

Aside from helping individuals who are new to Medicare, he also works with professionals such as care facility coordinators, doctors, and pharmacists as they assist their patients with Medicare plan decisions. We tap into his Medicare experience to discuss five key considerations for evaluating Medicare benefit options. You’ll find this episode insightful and helpful, whether you are evaluating benefits for yourself or helping patients or other family members navigate this process.

All right, let’s hear from today’s sponsor of the American Pharmacists Association and then we’ll jump in my interview with Josh Workman.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[0:00:50] TU: Today’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast is brought to you by the American Pharmacists Association. APHA has partnered with Your Financial Pharmacists to deliver personalized financial education benefits for APHA members. Throughout the year APHA will be hosting a number of exclusive webinars covering topics like student loan, debt payoff strategies, home buying, investing, insurance needs, and much more. Join APHA now to gain premier access to these educational resources and to receive discounts on YFP products and services. You can join APHA at a 25% discount by visiting pharmacists.com/join and using the coupon code YFP. Again, that’s pharmacists.com/join and using the coupon code YFP.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:37] TU: Josh, welcome to the show.

[0:01:38] JW: Thanks for having me, Tim.

[0:01:40] TU: Well, this is a treat. You and I have known each other for a long time when Jess and I lived up in Northeast Ohio. Our families got to know each other well. I’ve always appreciated the work that you’ve done on the Medicare side. It’s taken us over 300 episodes, but I’m excited to finally bring this together to be able to tap into your Medicare experiences and knowledge. Thank you so much for coming on.

[0:02:03] JW: Yeah. Thanks again for having me, Tim.

[0:02:05] TU: Josh, as we were planning for this episode, and here we are in the month of October, we’re talking about all different aspects related to the health insurance part of the financial plan and we realize that Medicare really isn’t a topic that we’ve talked really much about, maybe not even at all, but it’s such an important part of the financial plan for those that are making that transition into retirement.

As we were planning for this episode, we were thinking about a few different groups that may find value in this, right? Of course, there’s individuals listening that are getting ready to make that Medicare decision for themselves and making sure that they’re optimizing that benefit selection. But perhaps, even a bigger group would be, “Hey, I’ve got aging parents that are going through this phase.” Or, “I work at a pharmacy and often I have patients that come looking for help in terms of Medicare selection and what are some of the things that I should be thinking about.” I know, Josh, in your work as well, you consult with individuals that are going through selection, but also work with other providers and facilities as well. Is that correct?

[0:03:05] JW: Yeah. Yeah, that’s correct. I’m working with individuals or maybe in a group setting, like a seminar setting is a lot of what I do. But then, yeah, working with pharmacists, working with doctors, working with assisted living facilities, all those types of professionals have questions and I’m able to help their patients as well.

[0:03:25] TU: Let’s start with some of the basics of Medicare, Josh. Pharmacists get really a slim amount of this in pharmacy’s glamour. We talked about health insurance at large. We talked about the different parts of Medicare. It’s been 15 years for me, perhaps more for others that are listening as well. Let’s start with some of the basics, Medicare 101, Parts A through D. Just break down for us what those different parts cover.

[0:03:49] JW: Yeah, sure. There’s two parts to what’s referred to as original Medicare. That’s Part A, like Adam. Part B, like boy. A would be hospital benefits. You’d use your Part A coverage, for example, if you were in the hospital staying overnight for a surgery. Let’s say, Part B, like boy, that’s going to be medical benefits. Think of that as more outpatient-related things, specifically, like just going to the doctor, seeing a specialist, an outpatient surgery, those kinds of things. But then there’s a couple other parts as well, Medicare Part D, like David, or I like to think of it as D for drugs. That’s the easy way to remember that one. That’s going to be the prescription drug coverage. Part C is another way of saying Medicare Advantage. We’ll get into this, I believe in a little bit, but that would be Part C, which combines A, B, and D benefits into one plan.

[0:04:47] TU: Awesome. Timeline for coverage. This is something that I remember learning about this and just having the takeaway of like, this is important. You don’t want to mess up in terms of when you’re selecting coverage, making sure you’re not missing a deadline. What is the timeline for selecting coverage?

[0:05:03] JW: Yup. There’s going to be three main election periods if you want to think of them that way. Three times when you will be signing up for your plan, making decisions on your plan. I will say, there’s a lot of narrative out there that makes this a little scarier than it needs to be. It’s not that intimidating, but the first one is what’s called your initial election period. This is when folks are turning 65, they’re new to Medicare.

Another thing when someone could be using their initial election period is if they’re been on social security disability for 24 months, or if they develop end-stage renal disease or ALS, that’s another time prior to age 65, they can go on Medicare. Let’s use the turning 65, example because that’s the most common. It’s a seven-month window. It starts three months prior to your birth month, runs the month of your birth, and then three months after. A seven-month window when you can sign up. Most folks will use the three months prior and then start their benefits, the month of their birth. That’s the most common.

[0:06:12] TU: That is a pretty – I didn’t actually realize it was that long in terms of the seven months or the three months prior, the month of your birth date, and then the three months after. Then the other piece I’m thinking about here would be the transition or change, right? I had initial coverage I selected here. We’re using the example of 65, but I’m looking at other options in the future in terms of renewals. How does that work timeline-wise?

[0:06:33] JW: Yeah. Great question. That would be what’s referred to as the annual election period or annual enrollment.

[0:06:39] TU: Okay.

[0:06:40] JW: That is a window of opportunity towards the end of the year, getting into it now. October 15th through December 7th of the specific dates. That’s for folks who, yeah, let’s say, for example, they’re 67, they’ve been on Medicare for a couple of years now, but they want to reevaluate and see if the plan that they’re on now is going to be the best one for the coming year. They can evaluate that during the weeks, again, of October 15th through December 7th. Then their change, if they do make a plan change, it would start taking effect on January 1st of the following year.

[0:07:17] TU: Okay. Those are the two main ones I’ve heard you mention so far. So, that initial election and then the annual enrollment process. Anything else important to remember around the timeline for selecting coverage?

[0:07:30] JW: Yeah. There could be a third election period. Just think of them as special election periods. We do run into these. I do run into them every now and then, but if someone moves, for example. Moves out of state maybe or it could even be a move to a different county within the same state, they would qualify for a special election period to make a change. If someone gains or loses Medicaid eligibility, we recently saw a lot of that with the COVID benefits that were extended for folks on Medicaid.

They basically, couldn’t lose their Medicaid eligibility, but that stopped. I believe it was in April of this year. That qualifies for a special election period to make a change or if there’s other things too, like you have a parent who moves into an institution for lack of a better word, where they’re moving into a long-term care facility or a nursing home. That would also qualify as a special election period to make a change outside of annual enrollment. October 15th through December 7th.

[0:08:31] TU: Awesome. With that background information, let’s spend most of our time here talking about evaluating benefit options, what to look for, what to consider. Before we get into five main areas that you’ve seen, five big differences based on your experiences. I think it’s important that we differentiate at least at a high-level Medicare advantage and Medicare supplement plans because when we talk about some of these areas here in just a moment, we’re going to be referring to both of those and the different sides to consider between them. Define those further, for us.

[0:09:00] JW: Yeah. So generally speaking, you have two main options for coverage when you go on to Medicare. I should say this is what most folks do. Most folks will either go with a Medicare Advantage plan or a Medicare supplement. Medicare advantages is much more heavily advertised. Sometimes folks think that’s the only option they have, but they technically don’t. Supplements are an option as well, but there’s going to be five major differences between those two plans that can really impact how you receive your care, what you’re going to pay out of pocket when you use your insurance, how you get your drug coverage, if it includes perks like dental, vision, hearing, all those kinds of things.

Yeah. There are some pretty major differences between those. That’s what I spend most of my time with my clients who are new to Medicare, so they can make an informed decision on what’s best for them.

[0:09:53] TU: Yeah. I remember Josh, you shared with me as we were preparing for this episode. The worksheet that you have of the two sides of the street, right? Choosing a plan. Advantage versus supplement and going through these, which I really like, because I think this can become very overwhelming, either as an individual choosing coverage, helping a family member, helping a patient, especially when so often, as you mentioned, especially on the advantage plan side, there’s just a lot of advertising, right? That’s behind this.

The mailings, the commercials, etc. so really being able to take a step back and say, “What are the options and how can we objectively compare these. What do we need? What do we not need to make an informed decision?” I think is so important, not only financially, but also just have the peace of mind and being able to navigate some of the nuances involved here. Let’s start with those five big differences. Number one, Josh, is Part D in terms of how one receives Part D insurance coverage. Tell us more there.

[0:10:44] JW: Yeah. It’s important to know a lot of people sometimes make an assumption that original Medicare, what we talked about before, Part A and Part B, that includes prescription drug coverage. It actually does not. The only way you can get Part D is through an insurance company. Now, how it would work on either side of the street. Yes, the way I like to describe it. If you go with a Medicare Advantage plan, most of the time, those are going to include prescription drug coverage at no additional cost. If you go with the Medicare Supplement plan, however, it does not include prescription drug coverage or Part D, you have to buy that separately. Advantage is included. Supplement, it’s not included. You have to pick it up separately.

[0:11:27] TU: Number two, it relates to the network here. We’re thinking of options for providers, access to hospitals, something that folks are familiar with from other experiences with health insurance, but what are some of the factors to consider here as relates to network coverage and the two sides of the street?

[0:11:43] JW: Medicare Advantage plans are going to have a network. Meaning there’s a list of specific doctors, hospital systems, specialists that you need to stay within in order to have coverage or to pay the least amount possible. Medicare supplements, one of the big benefits of them is they do not have a network of any kind. You can literally go to any provider in the country, in the whole United States, that takes original Medicare and they have to accept your supplement. It doesn’t matter what insurance company you have. You could be in the Northeast Ohio area like we are and have an insurance company that’s local here and receive care in California and they’ve never heard of your local company, but they have to take it, because it’s a Medicare supplement.

[0:12:32] TU: That network piece, obviously, very important to folks. The third area, which I’m sure is the one we’re often focused on is the cost side of it, the medical bills or the cost-sharing, ultimately what we have to pay out of pocket when using insurance. What are some of the key differences here between the advantage and the supplement?

[0:12:50] JW: With a Medicare Advantage Plan, you will have medical bills along the way as you use your insurance, or just you could say if you use your insurance. By medical bills, I’m referring to deductibles, co-pays, and co-insurance. You may have a deductible. Honestly, most plans I offer, Tim, don’t have a deductible, folks have to reach, but they could.

A co-pay, you know how that works, most likely you pay $25 to your primary care, 40 to a specialist, those kinds of things. Then co-insurance is a percentage, right? You may have to pay 20% for durable medical equipment or 20% for chemo and radiation. The nice thing about Advantage Plans is that they do put a limit on what your medical bills can be. Most folks have this with your current insurance, even if you’re not on Medicare, called an annual maximum out-of-pocket expense.

All of your medical bills for the year can’t exceed your plan’s annual maximum. But know that, again, you will have them along the way, medical bills, that is. Whereas Medicare supplements, they don’t really have any medical bills that you’re going to have to worry about. Okay. Really, the biggest medical bill for the most popular supplement that I write out of my office is the Part B, like boy, deductible. Currently here for 2023. It’s $226, so you pay that for any Part B service. Once that’s paid though, Tim, the medical bills are done for the rest of the year.

[0:14:26] TU: Wow.

[0:14:26] JW: So that $226 deductible is your medical bill and it’s also your annual maximum. If you want to think about it that way.

[0:14:34] TU: Okay. So, very naive on this topic, Josh, but you’re just describing the differences and obviously when you talk about the Supplement plan and the lower amount, what I seem to hear is not insignificant, but a much lower amount on the deductible, less potential out of pocket versus when you reference the Advantage plans more out of pocket. What we tend to think of from our experiences right now for many of us with the insurance. So, is it fair to say that cost-wise monthly premiums, you typically see a vast difference between these two, because of that or is that – it depends?

[0:15:11] JW: No, you’re right. There’s a difference in cost. So, that would be the fourth big difference here between these two. As I’m sure listeners are putting together, if you have to pay medical bills, if you have a network. Well, you’re probably going to be paying less then for your insurance, because you’re subjecting yourselves to these medical bills into this network.

Medicare Advantage is going to be your less expensive route to take. It could even be, and folks may have seen this advertised. You could even see that these Medicare Advantage plans are zero dollars per month. Okay. Those are actually some of the most popular advantage plans.

[0:15:46] TU: Interesting.

[0:15:48] JW: Some of my clients will choose is the zero-dollar premium plan. Okay. Now with supplements, though, these are going to have a monthly cost. There aren’t any zero-dollar Medicare supplements. This currently, I mean, it all really depends on the area that you live in. I just work here in the state of Ohio, but here in Ohio, a good rule of thumb for a turning 65 mail for a Medicare supplement, depending on the plan letter that’s chosen is probably going to be somewhere between $130 to $150 a month for a Medicare supplement. Female would be a little bit lower. Again, that’s a pretty rough estimate, Tim, just depending on the service area that you’re in.

[0:16:37] TU: Yeah. It’s really helpful, though, Josh. I’m thinking about how this integrates back with the financial plan. It’s taking me back to episode 275. Tim and I talked about how to build a retirement paycheck, right? We’ve been accumulating funds. Hopefully, for the majority of our careers. Now we have to be able to replace what was coming from our income through the different retirement vehicles that we’ve built, right? 401Ks, IRAs, maybe we have some HSA funds that can come into play here, as well.

This is important, right? Because if you’re in the plans that you were just referencing on the supplement side, where let’s say you’ve got a monthly premium of $150 a month, and then you know what the deductible is going to be, like we can start to build those numbers into the monthly paycheck that we’re going to be receiving during retirement, essentially paying ourselves or if we’re on an advantage plan, and let’s just say there’s an advantage plan with the example you gave where there’s a zero-dollar premium, but we know what the out of pocket match your limit is, like, okay, we need planning for that, right, or planning for some of the other expected expenses from cost sharing of the healthcare.

You can really start to see how and understanding of the options and the plans and what the impact could be annually, as well as monthly when you talk about something like a monthly premium, could build into the financial plan, build into building that retirement paycheck as we make that transition into that phase.

[0:17:56] JW: Yeah, exactly.

[0:17:58] TU: All right. Number five, Josh. This is one that I didn’t think about that was really interesting when you were talking about this in our preparation for the show. With some of the variances between the plans, when it comes to things like dental, vision, hearing, or the extras, tell us more here.

[0:18:14] JW: When it comes to dental, vision and hearing, this is becoming a much bigger issue, I would say than it used to be. I’ve been doing this for several years now, and back when I started, folks weren’t that concerned about dental, vision, hearing. However, advertisements on TV, the mail that folks are getting that are turning 65 heavily focuses on this side of things. Medicare Advantage plans are going to include dental vision and hearing benefits, as well as other things too, like over-the-counter items, allowances that the plans give people several dollars a month that they are a quarter rather than they can use to buy Tylenol or Advil or Band-Aids and Toothpaste, that kind of stuff.

Advantage plans are going to include those kinds of things. Again, it’s usually at no additional cost. Even a zero-dollar plan would include these things. Whereas Medicare supplements do not include any of these kinds of things, but you can buy them separately, just like you buy the Part D, separately. You can pick up dental vision hearing benefits at an additional cost if you’d like them.

[0:19:17] TU: Josh, before we wrap up by talking about some of the common mistakes that you’re seeing, folks making when it comes to evaluating benefit options and selecting a policy. Summarize here for us the five points that we just talked about as, again, individuals may either be choosing their own policy, working with a family member or working with patients that they can take away this information.

[0:19:36] JW: Yeah. The easy way that I like to describe it is this. If you go with a Medicare Advantage plan, this is going to be your less expensive route to take. It’s going to include Medicare Part D. It’s going to include dental vision hearing. However, you are going to have a network and you are going to have medical bills along the way as you use it. Medicare supplements are your more expensive route to take. They don’t include drug coverage. They don’t include dental, vision, hearing, although you can buy them separately if you’d like. However, you don’t have the medical bills and you don’t have the network to be concerned with.

If you’re a pharmacist out there and you’re trying to quickly explain this to a patient, maybe just go about it that way. Medicare Advantage is less expensive. There’s a network and there’s medical bills. Supplement is more expensive, but it doesn’t have a network and it doesn’t have medical bills.

[0:20:29] TU: Great summary, Josh. I’m curious, like rough numbers. What do you see as like a distribution between these two buckets as you work with those going into Medicare enrollment?

[0:20:39] JW: Yeah. That is a great question. That’s one that’s become very common as my clients are sitting down trying to make a decision on what they want to go with. I’m finding now, Tim, and it didn’t used to be this way, that it is about a 60-40 split. About 60% are going the Advantage plan side and about 40% are going the supplement side. When I first started, it was probably 70-30 the other way or heavily weighted on the supplement.

I think one of the big reasons for this is the marketing. Advantage plans are much more heavily marketed to people who are new to Medicare. I said before, a lot of people think that they are the only option. Not that they’re a bad option, but again, folks are just having much more education, getting much more education about Advantage plans than they are supplements.

[0:21:32] TU: Let’s talk about that marketing because I think that’s one of maybe a little bit too harsh to call it a mistake, but I think the influence of the marketing can be real. I’ve seen many of these commercials, Josh. I think I know the ones you’re referring to and just the impact that whether it’s mail marketing, TV, radio, a combination of can have and sway in someone in one direction or another. Tell us more about that. Even some of the other common mistakes you may see folks making when they’re going through the selection process.

[0:22:03] JW: Yeah. Those commercials are becoming very popular. We’re talking about like the Joe name, this commercials guys that you can’t help but see, especially getting here into the fall into annual enrollment. Those commercials, the mistakes I see people making is buying a plan based off of what they’re seeing just on those commercials alone. If you actually pay attention to one of them, they are referencing primarily the perks of the plans.

The dental, vision, hearing benefits, they may even say things like call and check your zip code, because you could get a plan where you don’t have to pay for your Medicare premium and at all. The plan will pay for it for you. In my opinion, those aren’t the only things you should factor in when you’re buying health insurance. You should factor in other things too, like does your doctor take the plan? That’s a pretty big one.

Yeah, you might have a nice dental benefit, but when you need to go to your primary care physician and they say, “No, we don’t take this.” How valuable is that dental benefit now? Other things, folks don’t necessarily consider, especially on, and we can get into this more if you’d like, but these relatively new to the game Part B, give back plans that pay some or all of your Medicare premium. You got to think from an insurance company’s perspective, if they’re willing to pay your Medicare premium for you, what do you think that’s going to say about the benefits they’re going to provide in the plan?

[0:23:31] TU: Yeah.

[0:23:32] TU: Primarily translates to higher medical bills to you. These are just things that I feel like are important for people to consider that you’re buying a health insurance plan, you want it to be solid when you need it. You don’t necessarily want to buy a plan, because it gives you $100 every quarter and over-the-counter items limit. Those are some of the mistakes I see people making. They buy a plan based off of perks, not necessarily on the day-to-day usage of the plan that could be more important.

[0:24:04] TU: Yeah. Which is, it’s a different form of marketing, right? It’s not necessarily a commercial, but it’s a different form of marketing to hook someone into a policy. That’s a good a good call out. I think both of those Josh, to me highlight the value and you showed me that worksheet, that side-by-side worksheet of, “Hey, we’re looking at supplement plans, we’re looking at advantage plans.” We’re applying somebody’s personal situation. You’re sitting down with them one-on-one, talking through the benefits and the options.

That really brings the life to me, the value that an agent, especially someone specializing in Medicare, such as yourself can be helping, whether it’s the person directly that’s selecting the benefits, whether it’s family members that are involved, or for our pharmacist community, again, especially those working in community practice. I know these questions come up all the time in terms of, “Hey, I’m a patient, I go to the pharmacy, I ask my pharmacist about the policy or what should I be thinking.”

My question here is your work is obviously in Ohio. If we have pharmacists in Northeast Ohio, shout out to Josh, get connected with him for sure as well, but much of our listeners may be across the country. So, words that you would have to share in terms of what are some things that folks can look for in trying to develop a relationship with an agent as a pharmacist or for those that are looking to select a policy for themselves or a family member and partnering with an agent that way, as well.

[0:25:23] JW: Yeah. I mean, first of all, from the pharmacist’s perspective, I do work with several pharmacists and chains and whatnot. I would say from your perspective, don’t feel like you need to be the expert on Medicare Part D, specifically. You can say, “Hey, I don’t know all the answers on what plan you should pick, but here’s a guy you can call, or here’s a girl you can call, they know. They do this for a living.” The other thing too, guys, is it saves you time.

I mean, I see, I’m in and out of pharmacies a lot. I see how busy you are. I can imagine how stressful it is when you have 10 or 20 prescriptions you need to fill and somebody asks to go into the private room and say, “Hey, what prescription drug plan is going to be best for me next year?” It can just take up a lot of a lot of time I would imagine. Again, having an agent you can refer to, to handle those questions for you would save you a lot of time and alleviate that pressure of having to feel like an expert.

[0:26:26] TU: Yeah. Well, this was great, Josh. I really appreciate you coming on the show sharing your expertise. As I mentioned at the beginning, it’s been a long time in the making covering the topic we haven’t done much about before. We will link in the show notes. Josh’s LinkedIn profile, email. If folks have questions, as well as a link to the insurance firm that he works with right now. So, you can check all that information out in the show notes. Josh, thanks so much again for coming on. I really appreciate it.

[0:26:51] JW: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Tim. Go Bills.

[0:26:53] TU: That’s all. This is the year. Let’s do it.

[0:26:55] JW: This is the year, Tim. It’s the year.

[0:26:57] TU: Awesome. Thanks, man.

[0:26:58] JW: Yup.

[0:26:59] TU: Before we wrap up today’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacists podcast, I want to again thank our sponsor, the American Pharmacists Association. APHA is every pharmacist ally advocating on your behalf for better working conditions, fair PBM practices, and more opportunities for pharmacists to provide care. Make sure to join a bolder APHA to gain premier access to financial educational resources and to receive discounts on YFP products and services. You can join APHA at a 25% discount by visiting pharmacist.com/join and using the coupon code YFP. Again, that’s pharmacist.com forward slash join using the coupon code YFP.

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:27:39] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacists, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 328: How to Navigate Open Enrollment & Employer Benefits

Posted on October 5, 2023October 2, 2023 by Tim U

Tim Baker, CFP, RICP, RLP joins Tim Ulbrich, PharmD to discuss open enrollment & evaluating employer benefits.

Episode Summary

This week on the podcast, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD sits down with YFP co-owner and Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, CFP, RICP, RLP to discuss open enrollment and the process of evaluating employer benefits. They discuss considerations for choosing a health insurance plan, how to determine whether or not your employer-provided life and disability insurance is sufficient, the differences between an FSA, Dependent Care FSA, and HSA, and what to be looking for when putting money into your employer-sponsored retirement plan.

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, glad to have you back on the show.

Tim Baker: Yeah, good to be here, Tim. Looking forward to getting into open enrollment discussion. ‘Tis the season. So yeah, I’m ready for it.

Tim Ulbrich: ‘Tis the season indeed. Fall is in the air officially here in Ohio, which does mean it’s almost time for open enrollment and ensuring that we’re taking the time to understand and maximize employer benefits. And I think whether someone is reviewing their benefits for the first time, whether that’s accepting a new position, going through another round of open enrollment, a lot to consider here, including insurance, retirement accounts and HSAs, FSAs, to name a few. So Tim, our team at YFP Planning includes employer benefits as a part of the planning process, perhaps an area that folks don’t necessarily associate working with their financial planner on. So how does this part, employer benefits, factor into the financial plan? And why is it so important that we’re looking at it in the planning process?

Tim Baker: Yeah, I think this is another area, Tim, where like when we say, “comprehensive,” we mean comprehensive. And it’s just like kind of the same conversation with things like home purchase. Most financial advisors are not going to kind of walk you through kind of the A-Z of buying a home because most of the time, a financial advisor is working with people in their 50s, 60s, 70s, right? And the reason for that is because those are the people that have assets, and that’s how they charge their fee. We have many, many, many clients that are in their 20s and 30s. And things like home purchase is really important and is often a big step in their financial journey and their financial plan. So we kind of take the time to go through that based on, I know you’ve said it, I’ve said it, we’ve messed those transactions up in the past, and we just don’t want to see our clients do the same thing. So open enrollment is kind of the same thing. A lot of financial advisors don’t really talk about this stuff because if you’re working with people in their 50s, 60s, like they’ve done it dozens of times, right? So they’ve gone through this. And a lot of our clients haven’t. You know, it’s not something that is kind of what we understand. And so to define open enrollment, open enrollment is the period of time where you can purchase or apply for health insurance for the upcoming year without a qualifying event. And usually a qualifying event is something like a marriage or a divorce or a birth of a child. So it’s typically very centered on the health insurance plan because that’s the big piece of the benefits. But then what the employer does is kind of have you opt out of other benefits that they might offer, which might be life insurance, disability, I’ve even seen things like pet insurance and things like that. You know, some things that are not insurance-related could be like a legal benefit. So that’s what this is is open enrollment. And it’s important because your employer benefits are a major component of your compensation package. And you know, this is kind of the conversation that goes back to things like salary negotiation is I’ve seen clients, they’ll say, “Hey, I’m making $110,000,” and they get an offer for $120,000 but they take a major step back with regard to their total compensation because of the benefits that are associated with that. I think it’s really important to understand what the employer benefits are and how to assess that. So that’s really what’s at stake here is really understanding that piece. And we know this, Tim, because when we plan to hire someone, we know that it’s not just about the salary pay. We apply a multiple on top of that because we know that the benefits that we’re going to provide for the employee are going to be above and beyond that. So that total cost or what I would say is an investment in that person is really beyond the salary. So this is what is really that bell to that. We’re trying to assess an an employee to say, OK, how can I best optimize this part of my compensation. And I would say that there is a lot, you know, a lot of people that don’t necessarily fully optimize this part of their financial plan or give it the attention that it needs because it sneaks up on us or bad information or what have you. So that’s really kind of the overall picture here of what it is and why it’s important.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and Tim, I think when you say sneaks up on us, bad information, it’s important I think for folks, basic stuff before we jump into individual benefits, you know, know your dates, obviously what’s the time span. You know, a lot of employers, depending on how they organize this, will do informational sessions, open Q&As, one-on-ones, group, and some of that might be automated, depending on the system and the platform they’re using. But making sure, understanding the dates, you know, simple things, how much time do you have if you’re going to be on vacation, things like that, making sure you can coordinate with HR. And then also, you know, just taking a look at your pay stub and your benefits. What do you currently have? And really taking a pulse on — and I think just a chance to go back and what’s gross pay, what’s net pay, what’s coming out in benefits, and taking this time that comes around every year as a chance to revisit some of these things that we want to be looking at often. And then of course, just thinking about upcoming changes, right, that might be happening. You know, I think of things like children that might be beneficiaries on the healthcare side, aging out if you think about 26 or folks that might be expecting or perhaps getting married, things that might have an impact on their benefits, considering those things as you’re in the benefits selection. And then of course just refreshing and updating the evaluation of who are the beneficiaries that are listed on certain policies. Tim, I want to start with health insurance. You know, I think it’s the one that typically carries the biggest price tag as we think about it relative to the other insurance and typically carries more options than things like dental and vision and life and disability, which I think for many employers it’s more of a one-way type of option. So the big question here is how do I determine which one to get? And of course, all plans are created differently but when folks are looking at these and you’re evaluating the deductibles and maximum out-of-pockets and premiums and copays and coinsurance, unfortunately, it’s a system that even though our audience is comfortable with all of those numbers because they live in it in the job that they’ve done or have been trained in it previously, there’s just a lot to consider. And if you look at plans, let’s consider a three-tiered plan where you’ve got like a bronze, silver, gold option, you know, you’re looking at OK, less out of pocket, more out of pocket, better coverage, but perhaps I could have lower out of pocket and I could use that money elsewhere. Like general framework, how do you begin to help clients think through this decision and not just look at it in a silo but also consider it in the context of the rest of the plan?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think it’s — you know, everyone can say it with me — it depends, right? So you know, I think a lot of it depends on past history or — you know, you mentioned a few things like what’s kind of on the horizon? Is it getting married or having kids? And some of those will allow you to kind of elect insurance outside of the open enrollment period. But those are typically qualifying events. But you know, an example is when we had Liam, when Shea was pregnant with Liam, we opted out of the bronze package, you know, the HSA plan to more of a gold package because we knew that the doctor bills and the hospital bills were going to be there. Our thought process was, you know, although in most cases we’re not going to the doctor a lot, you know, during a normal year, well, electing to a higher deductible plan, which means less coming out of our paycheck but then when we do go to the doctor, there’s going to be potentially more coming out of our pocket. So we did that to get in front of it a little bit. And you know, that’s really important from a planning perspective and kind of mitigating as much of the costs — and we probably saved ourselves if we did the math $1,000 by doing that. So that’s an important part of the plan. Now, sometimes things are going to come up and you’re just not going to — you know, it’s kind of like that emergency fund. You’re just not going to know for the future. But I would say is it’s a little bit of an exercise in looking at your past history, so looking at how often you’re going to the doctor and how often you’re reaching into your pocket to pay for things like copays and things like that. But then also projecting it forward, so that’s kind of where the conversation starts is that, you know, if you’re a younger, healthy professional and you’re not really going to the doctor, then you probably should really consider kind of a bronze, high-deductible, HDHP plan and couple that with the HSA, which we’ve said is a great forum to stash dollars. If you’re looking at regular doctor visits because of a chronic issue or something like that, that’s not going to be for you, regardless of your age. You just know that you’re going to be in and out of the doctor’s office. So I think it’s really looking at, again, kind of the budget and seeing what money has been spent on healthcare costs in the past and then what you think, project those going forward. And like I said, like this is not — it’s important, but these are taking it like snapshots one year at a time. So you can — like after Liam was born and the medical expenses were gone, then we went back to the high-deductible plan with the HSA. So I think it’s really important to kind of take stock of kind of your history, your medical history, your spending on healthcare, to form the baseline of your decision in that realm. The other comment I would make, Tim, is not all 401k’s are created equal. And as many of us know, not all health plans are created equal. So some are really, really great, and some are really, really terrible. And sometimes, that has to do with the size of the organization, sometimes the economies to scale, the bigger that you are, the less that each participant pays, whether that’s the 401k or the health insurance plan. So you kind of have to work with the sandbox, you know, that you’re playing in, so to speak, and something that can be very much out of your control.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think, Tim, your example of Liam is a great reminder of not putting open enrollment on auto pilot.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think that’s what we’re trying to stress here is like, using this as a chance to re-evaluate each year, you know, what happened last year? What worked last year may or may not be what makes sense for this year for a variety of reasons. And I think this is certainly a place where we want to be evaluating what does the cash position look like? What does the reserves look like? And how do we feel about that? Especially if we’re going to be opting into a high-deductible health plan, you know, thinking worst case scenario — hopefully never happens — looking at those out-of-pocket maxes and really asking yourself, how comfortable are we with that happening? How does that make us feel? And could we weather that storm if it were to come?

Tim Baker: Yeah, and you know, and we’ve had some tough conversations with clients that are deep in credit card debt and they really need as much of their income to kind of like right the ship and get going, so sometimes it means sacrificing or being uncomfortable here. You know, one of the things I look at is like if we look at all the debts that are out there, medical debt is not necessarily a bad debt in terms of like they reformed a lot of things with it hurting your credit because it’s kind of been a nightmare, you’re typically not gouged with higher interest rates and things like that. So typically more forgiven. I would even say push back on a lot of medical debt because it’s wrong. I think Tim, you had a story about that when one of your sons was born. So there’s a little bit more give I would say than some of these other ones that goes like right to collections and you’re in a lot of trouble. So it’s kind of — this is all about like mitigating the risk and trying to understand where can we give a little bit so we’re OK.

Tim Ulbrich: I want to shift gears, Tim, to life and disability. Probably one of the most common questions that we get is, do I need to purchase additional life and disability insurance beyond what my employer covers? And of course the answer is it depends on a large part of the individual’s situation and what they have going on and what they’re trying to do with those policies and so forth. But you know, general thoughts and discussion on how one goes about making this decision in terms of understanding what coverage is there from an employer standpoint, determining what total coverage may be needed, and some of the gap and differences between an employer plan and if they purchased a policy out on the open market.

Tim Baker: I think if we look at most pharmacists out there, you know, professionals that are making a six-figure salary, I think there’s going to come a time when there probably is a need to purchase policies outside of what the employer provides. Now, the problem with the financial services industry is that a lot of “financial advisors” are trying to push those policies on a young professional when they probably don’t need them. That’s when you’re a pharmacist that has maybe six figures of debt that’s going to be forgiven if you die or are disabled with no dependents and really, you know, not much on your balance sheet. So there’s kind of like this gap of do I really need this? Or can I just make do with what my employer provides? I’ll say this about the employer-provided policies: Outside of health insurance, which is a health plan, I would say that things like life and disability insurance are not plans. They’re really perks. So they’re meant to supplement or meant to provide some type of benefit that will help the employee but also it’s a way to kind of retain you and things like that. So I really view these as perks and not necessarily plans. I would say, to your point, Tim, I think it’s really looking at the individual and say OK, does it make sense to buy a policy outside of that? Most employers will provide some type of life insurance benefit, whether it’s something like $50,000 or one or two times income, which you can then elect to either increase your coverage or not. I think the downside of that is, you know, if you’re working for an employer as a 30-year-old and you have all of your eggs in that basket and you’re saying, “Hey, I have $1 million” or a lot of times, they’re capped. Most times, pharmacists need a lot more than what their employer can provide. So that’s one of the drawbacks. But if you’re working with that company for 40 years and then you leave to go to another organization, which maybe that isn’t provided or it’s a lot less of a benefit, you have a gap, then you’re going out in the market 10 years older where you’re paying a lot more for that particular policy. So that’s one of the things that — sometimes they’re portable, meaning that you can take them with you, and sometimes they’re not. So for both the life and disability, you know, it’s really looking at your own situation. Just like open enrollment itself, this is one of the things that often overlooked, just insurance. And I know we’ve probably done a podcast in the past about what’s proper life and disability and things like that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: For the disability, the coverage is typically going to be a percentage of your income. And again, it could be capped, and some employers will offer both long-term and short-term disability. You know, both are great. But you know, oftentimes, because of one reason or another, there’s going to be a gap in the coverage either because of taxes or just that a pharmacist, what they make and what most professionals will say that you need to kind of cover down and typically, that can be anywhere from 50-80% of what your income is, that there is a need to go out onto the open market and buy individual policies. But from an open enrollment perspective, I think if you don’t have those policies, it’s really important to understand, you know, what is there for you? And what can at least tide you over until you get those policies in place? And again, it’s one of those things where it’s like, it’s not important to you until it’s important to you. And it’s really hard to kind of, to show that to clients unless they’ve experienced that pain themselves or a close family member.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: But it’s going to be a really important piece of protecting the overall financial plan, which is — this is really what this is all about is, you know, insurance is really protecting the financial plan from a catastrophic event and ensuring that you can continue to build wealth and survive into the future.

Tim Ulbrich: Episode 044, Tim, How to Determine Life Insurance Needs, 045, How to Determine Disability Insurance Needs, two that we’ll link to in the show notes. We’ve got more information on the website as well, YourFinancialPharmacist.com. Tim, I think one of the common mistakes I see made here just relating to that discussion on gap in coverage is not digging into the policies to really understand, you know, life insurance is maybe the most obvious example where if you have a policy — if you have a need for life insurance and you have a term policy that’s offered for $50,000 or $100,000 or one times salary or two times salary, typically, those have a cap on them. For many folks, there’s going to be a gap and a shortage. And I think this is where, you know, sitting down one-on-one with someone to really calculate the total need, think about the transferability issues that you mentioned and what does it mean if you pick up employment, tax considerations, and really getting into the weeds of some of the nuances of the policies and things like own occupation, we’ve talked about that before and its importance. And again, thinking about how this fits in with the rest of the plan. And just a shoutout here to our fee-only financial planning team at YFP Planning, this is really where I think the value of fee-only comes in in that really sitting down with someone to determine what is their true need in their best interests. Not too much coverage that there’s dollars being spent that could be put elsewhere in the financial plan, but making sure we’re also not exposing the plan to unnecessary risk.

Tim Baker: Yeah, I mean, you know, this — what we’re talking about here are products. Like insurance is a product. So any time that you talk about dispensing a device, “Hey, Tim, you need life insurance,” and you say, “OK, great. Like where do I get it?” Like we can sell you this product. There’s going to be a conflict of interest. So having someone that is a fee-only fiduciary that is not further enriched by the advice that they’re giving, you know, strips away a lot of that, well, am I being advised in my best interests or in the advisor’s best interests, the one that’s advising me. So that’s I think the beauty of fee-only.

Tim Ulbrich: One example I just want to give here, I just pulled up, Tim, our long-term disability coverage that we added recently for the YFP team.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: And you know, if you look at it on kind of the main benefits platform, it says, “60% monthly income up to $6,000.” But this is an example where digging deeper is so valuable. You know, you get into things like what is the definition of earnings? So our policy, it’s base wage. So how you’re compensated could have an impact here.

Tim Baker: Yep.

Tim Ulbrich: What’s the elimination period or the timeframe from when the disability happens to when the benefit starts to pay out? Here, it’s 90 days. But if it’s shorter than that, perhaps longer than that, what’s the game plan to fund. Does it have own occupation coverage? We’ve talked about the importance of that before. What’s the maximum benefit? Our policy goes up to age 65. And then things like coverage restrictions, other incentives. So really, just a reminder of this time period and using this point here to really dig into this information and read the policies.

Tim Baker: Yeah, you know, and again, going back to those episodes you mentioned there, that’s where we kind of talk about the nitty-gritty, but I think the beautiful thing about this is like when we’re reviewing this and we kind of look at the — kind of go through the open enrollment optimization stuff is like as a planner, I’m looking at your balance sheet. So I’m like, alright, does it make sense to bolster — you know, because a lot of these, you can opt in. So like our policy doesn’t do this, but a lot of policies, they’ll say, “The employer pays for a 60% benefit of your earnings.” But then you can opt in to get that up to 80%. So you pay an additional — you pay out of pocket out of your paycheck for that additional 20%. If I’m looking at your balance sheet, Tim, and I’m saying, “Man, you have plenty of cash,” I would say, “Let’s not opt into that.” Or we might say, “Let’s do it,” because we know because the employer is going to pay for it, that that benefit’s going to be taxed.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: If the employer pays for the benefit, it’s going to be taxed. That’s the gap. You know, so the idea is looking at your situation and overlaying what’s out there. I think the open enrollment, what I say is we want to look at the things that you’re paying for and say, does it make sense for you to be paying for it? I see a lot of AD&D insurance, and I kind of look at this as like — and again, this is not advice — but I kind of look at those as like when you buy something at Best Buy and they ask you about the warranty. You know, most of the time, you say no because it’s just not worth the money. Some of these things in open enrollment, it’s the same thing. It’s like AD&D, for those to pay out is very rare. So even if it’s $2 per pay period, I’m like, I just don’t think it’s worth it. So we’re trying to make sure that you’re not paying for things that don’t necessarily provide you much benefit, much utility. But then you are paying for things that do. And you know, kind of finding that Venn diagram of sorts to make sure that, again, we’re fully optimized with regard to this part of your compensation package.

Tim Ulbrich: AD&D, for folks that are wondering, Accidental Death & Dismemberment insurance.

Tim Baker: Oh yeah. Yep.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker dropping some financial lingo here.

Tim Baker: Sorry about that. Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, next I want to talk about FSAs, dependent care FSAs, especially since we’ve had some changes that have happened there as well as HSAs. And we’ve talked probably among these to the greatest extent, we’ve talked about HSAs because of the value of what that can provide as well as these other options. And we’ve talked about it on the podcast, we’ve got some blog posts, Episode 165, The Power of a Health Savings Account, also have an article on the blog, which we’ll link to, about really more of the strategic investing side of an HSA if you’re able to do that. So Tim, high level overview, FSA, dependent care FSA, HSA, and some of the differences and considerations for these accounts.

Tim Baker: The very crude way that I remember the difference between FSA and HSA is FSAs are really use-or-lose. So when you fund these with pre-tax dollars, if you don’t use those monies for the purposes of healthcare for an FSA for healthcare or dependent care for a dependent care FSA, you lose it. So it’s F-udge. Like I don’t get — you don’t get to use that money. Whereas the HSA, this is — can potentially be an accrual account, meaning that year over year, you can stack Benjamins and hopefully one day becomes that kind of stealth IRA that we talk about that has that triple tax benefit. So like I said, we’ve talked about the HSA ad nauseum. It has to be paired with a high-deductible health plan. You know, you can put the money in. It has a triple tax benefit, which means it goes in pre-tax, it grows tax-free so you can invest it like an IRA, and then you can distribute it in the near term for approved medical costs or when you reach a certain age, you can use it basically for whatever. So that’s the beauty of the HSA. But you know, again, it only works or you only have access to it when it’s paired with a high-deductible health plan. The FSA for healthcare is similar, but very different. So you’re allowed to use — you’re allowed to fund it with pre-tax dollars, meaning if you make $100,000 and you put $1,000 in there, you’re taxed on as if $99,000. So I think the limits for FSA for 2021, I think it’s like $2,750.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right. Yep.

Tim Baker: Yeah. So the idea is that what you’re trying to do here — it’s a little bit of a game of chicken. So what you’re trying to do is really, again, see into the future and say, “OK, what do I know is a baseline that I’m going to use on my out-of-pocket healthcare expenses?” And if you know for sure that you’re going to spending $2,000 on that, then you should fund it with $2,000. And typically, there is a little bit of give at the end of the year where you can either carry some over or you have some time into the New Year to use it on.

Tim Ulbrich: Two months or —

Tim Baker: Yeah. And every plan is going to be different in its design. So you might be loading up on kind of some of the over-the-counter stuff. I’ve had a client buy a bunch of stuff for like contacts and things like that. So it’s going to be really important to kind of — again, this goes back to the spending plan, the budget, to understand what have you been spending in the past? Is that going to be indicative of what you will spend in the future? And then fund that with at least that baseline amount so you don’t lose it. The same thing can be said for the dependent care FSA. So this is a pre-tax account that you can fund that is used for care for your child who is age 13, for before- and after-school care, babysitting, nanny expenses, daycare, nursery school, preschool, summer day camp, and then also care for a spouse or a relative who is physically or mentally unable to care for themselves and lives in your home. So this money — this has actually been amended under the American Rescue Plan Act. So I think for single and married filing jointly couples, the pre-tax contribution limit went from where you could $5,000 a year, now it’s I think $10,500.

Tim Ulbrich: Significant jump. Yep.

Tim Baker: Yeah, very significant. So the higher limits apply to the plan year beginning Dec. 31, 2020 and before Jan. 1, 2022. So it is a temporary thing, but it allows you to park some dollars that you would otherwise — so if you’re in a 25% tax bracket, it’s as if you’re saving 25%, kind of thinking about it that way. So that’s what really — and for the FSAs, unlike the HSA, the FSA is — it has to be provided by the employer. I think we had a question on the Ask a YFP CFP about the HSA. And you don’t have to necessarily go through your employer. Sometimes, the employer doesn’t offer it. So you can go out and set up your own HSA. The FSA has to be provided by the employer for you to have access to it. So that’s really important. Again, these are all going to be — when you elect it, it’s going to take money out of your paycheck and basically fund these accounts for the appropriate purpose.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and this to me is where when we’ve talked with Paul Eikenberg, our director of tax, and working with our clients, one of the things he talks about here is these being untapped areas of potential.

Tim Baker: Totally.

Tim Ulbrich: And so I think there’s a lot of low-hanging fruit in the financial plan. And I think really evaluating these and perhaps the dollars of any one don’t jump out as being super significant, but I think as we start to add these up with other strategies, there certainly is value. And Tim, you had mentioned we did tackle a question recently on Ask a YFP CFP 084. The question was about fees on an HSA account, but we did talk about the opportunity to access an HSA account independent of the employer. So we’ve talked about health insurance, we’ve talked about life and disability, we’ve talked about FSAs and HSAs and dependent care FSAs. I want to wrap up our discussion by retirement saving options. And I think, again, this is an opportunity to take a step back, look at the overall progress on the investing part of the plan, overall goals, perhaps gap between the goals and where you’re currently at, and then to evaluate where does investing fit in with the rest of the financial plan. And so when we think about, Tim, employer-sponsored retirement accounts, two main buckets we have, which are those that are Roth contributions and those that are traditional. So define for us the difference between those two for folks that are — maybe have some outstanding questions about those or unsure as well as the limits of what we’re able to do in 2021.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so — and I’ll preface this by saying that most of — you know, open enrollment is a good time to check in on your retirement savings options. You’re not necessarily bound to that because you can go in —

Tim Ulbrich: Correct.

Tim Baker: — really at any time and say, “Hey, I was putting in 5%. I talked to a YFP planner, and they said I should put in 8%. That’ll put me on track to get my $5 million nest egg, so that’s what I want to do.” I can really do that at any time. Or I can say, “I want less Roth and more traditional,” or whatever the case is. So it’s just a good opportunity, it’s a good checkpoint to say, OK, where am I at and should I make any tweaks? So — and one of the things that they often do here is they allow you to put in an escalator. So you know — and you can do this any time too, but it’s a good thing to do in open enrollment so every year, you can increase that by 1% or 2% or whatever that looks like. So to answer your question, Tim, the Roth v. traditional, so most employers will offer a 401k or a 403b or if you work for the government, a TSP. So when you elect your retirement options here, a lot of them will now — you’ll have a traditional — so think of two buckets. You’ll have a traditional 401k and a Roth 401k.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: And they’re all under the same plan, but they segregate the monies because for a traditional, these are pre-tax dollars. So that example I gave you is if you put in $1,000 into your 401k and you make $100,00 — your traditional 401k — and you make $100,000, you’re taxed as if you made $99,000. For a Roth, it’s after-tax. So same example, if you put $1,000 into your Roth 401k and you make $100,000, you are taxed as if you made $100,000 because you’re not getting that pre-tax deduction. So for these dollars, the money is either taxed going in or coming out. So for a traditional, you’re not taxed going in, but then it grows tax-free inside of that account, and then you’re taxed when it is distributed, hopefully in retirement. For the Roth 401k, you’re taxed going in, so you don’t get that deduction, but then it grows tax-free and when it comes out, it’s not taxed because it’s already been taxed going in. So a lot of people will say Roth, Roth, Roth. And again, it’s going to depend on your plan. It’s going to depend on what you’re trying to achieve. And a lot of people get this wrong as well. So this is another good check on it to make sure that you’re putting the dollars in the right spot. Your match that your employer provides, if there is a match, is always going to go into a traditional account.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: So if there is a match, you’re going to have — some people get it twisted like, I’m 100% in my Roth 401k, but I see money in my traditional, like what gives? And I’m like, well, this is the money that your employer is matching. It’s going to go there, you know, regardless. So it’s really important, you know — so to kind of give you some numbers with 2021, to max out a 401k, a 403b, it’s $19,500. So you can put that in regardless of how much money you make. So that’s really going to be the limit for the 401k. IRAs are a completely different animal. They’re $6,000, this completely separate accounting mechanism. And that’s going to be dependent on your income whether you can put it in directly into a Roth or a traditional IRA and if you get the deduction. And I know we’ve had podcasts on that as well. But the point of this, Tim, is that the open enrollment exercise is a great opportunity to kind of just do a once-over for your retirement savings options and just make sure that one, you’re in the proper allocation but then it’s also in the Roth v. traditional, and then just making sure that you don’t get stuck in that hey, my employer matches 3%, so for 10 years, I’ve just been putting in 3%. You don’t want to do that because more often than not, it’s not going to be enough for you to retire comfortably. So this is another way to kind of check those things and push the envelope a little bit.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I point folks back to Episode 074, when we talked about evaluating your 401k plan, also more recently, Episode 208, when we talked about why minimizing fees on your investments is so important. Certainly relevant here as we talk about employer-sponsored retirement plans where we can see a lot of variabilities in those investment options and in the fees. As we’ve said a couple times now throughout the show, open enrollment is such a great time to take a step back and evaluate the financial plan. And for folks that are going through this process and think, you know, I really see the value in working with someone one-on-one to look at the financial plan holistically, to determine how to prioritize the goals, make some of these decisions around open enrollment, could be debt repayment, investing, tax evaluation, and so forth. We’d love to have a chance to talk with you about the YFP Planning comprehensive financial planning services that we conduct on a one-on-one basis. And you can learn more about those services as well as schedule a free discovery call by going to YFPPlanning.com. As always, thank you so much for listening. We hope you have a great rest of your week and look forward to having you join us again next week.

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YFP 305: Understanding Annuities: A Primer for Pharmacists

Posted on April 27, 2023April 26, 2023 by Tim U

In over 300 episodes of Your Financial Pharmacist, we haven’t covered much about annuities and today, Tim Baker, CFP®, RICP®, RLP® joins Tim Ulbrich, PharmD to do just that. On this episode, sponsored by First Horizon, you’ll hear all about what annuities are, the main types and how they differ, common misunderstandings, fees associated with annuities, and how they can assist with building a retirement paycheck through the flooring strategy.

Episode Summary

This week on the YFP Podcast, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, is joined by YFP Co-Founder & Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, CFP®, RLP®, RICP®, to discuss annuities.

Tim Baker explains what an annuity is, the main types of annuities, key terms and concepts to understand when evaluating annuity options, fees associated with annuities, and how annuities fit into the broader retirement income planning strategy.

During the second half of the episode, Tim and Tim discuss how annuities may fit into the flooring strategy of retirement income planning.

Key Points From the Episode

How common annuities are and Tim Baker’s high-level thoughts around them.
The importance of viewing annuities from the lens of building a retirement paycheck.
Tim Baker explains longevity risk and how annuities address it.
What exactly an annuity is and the two phases of an annuity.
Tim Baker delves into the main types of annuities and how they differ in structure and features.
How the appeal for annuities has increased due to human psychology.
Including annuities as part of retirement income strategy, the four ‘Ls’, and the flooring approach.
Why the psychological aspect of annuities is underrated.
The biggest con of annuities: fees.
How the tax treatment of annuities differs depending on the type of annuity and how it’s funded.

Episode Highlights

“We kind of shy away from [annuities] as a tool to be used in retirement.” — @TimBakerCFP [0:05:34]

“An annuity refers to an insurance contract where you give the insurance company money, typically in the form of a premium, and they invest the funds – with the idea of paying you back an income stream in the future.” — @TimBakerCFP [0:09:16]

“I’m less worried about legacy and I’m more worried about can my money sustain me?” — @TimBakerCFP [0:29:19]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here. And thank you for listening to the YFP podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, YFP co-founder and Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, joins me to talk about annuities. During the show, we discuss what an annuity is. The main types of products available. Key terms and concepts to understand when evaluating annuity options. How the fees are associated with these products? And how annuities may fit into the broader retirement income strategy?

Before we jump into today’s topic of annuities, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what our team of certified financial planners do working one-on-one with more than 280 households in 40+ plus states.

Our team offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized to the pharmacy professional. Whether you’re a new practitioner, in the middle of your career, or nearing retirement, we have you covered. To learn more about how our financial planning services can help you live a rich life today while planning for the future, book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether or not YFP planning, financial planning services, are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

[00:01:18] TU: Does saving 20% for a down payment on a home feel like an uphill battle? It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high-student loan debt. Meaning that saving 20% for a down payment on a home may take years.

We’ve been on a hunt for a solution for pharmacists that are ready to purchase a home loan with a lower down payment and are happy to have found that option with First Horizon.

First Horizon offers a professional home loan option, AKA doctor or pharmacist home loan, that requires a 3% down payment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time home buyers. Has no PMI and offers a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage on home loans up to $726,200.

The pharmacist home loan is available in all states except Alaska and Hawaii and can be used to purchase condos as well. However, rates may be higher. And a condo review has to be completed.

To check out the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to start the pre-approved process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[EPISODE]

[00:02:30] TU: Tim Baker, welcome back. What’s the good news?

[00:02:33] TB: Not much, Tim. Just kind of hopefully whining tax season down here shortly. The team is frantically at work crunching through tax returns. That’s really the theme of the next few weeks here. Excited for the deadline to be here and gone.

[00:02:49] TU: Yeah, shout out to the tax team. As you mentioned, Tim, hard at work. This season is intense. And we’re really looking forward to doing more year-round tax planning with these individuals. And if they’re listening, which I suspect the tax team is not, since they’re in the weeds right now, but grateful for all their contributions and the value they’re providing to clients and others in the YFP community. So, huge shout out to them.

Tim, annuities. It’s hard to believe in 300+ episodes now the podcasts that we’ve done that we’ve really covered very little around annuities. I think we had an Ask a YFP CPF a while back that we touched on it briefly.

And I’ll be honest, Tim, this is an area of the plan that I underestimated just how big it can be both in the volume of people that are purchasing annuities, the questions that are around the annuities, and how they can build under the retirement plan.

One report from LIMRA was at over $310 billion dollars’ worth of annuities that were sold in 2022. And that was a 22% increase from 2021. Just a big area of the plan. I’m curious to hear at a high level your thoughts around annuities and how common they are as you hear those statistics. And maybe just as surprised as I am that we haven’t dabbled into this more yet.

[00:04:07] TB: I think it depends who you talk to. I talk to some advisors that use them as part of their practice. I talk to a lot of advisors that I trust and that have looked on them that don’t necessarily use it as part of their practice. I think it’s going to be dependent on kind of the market and where we’re at.

Annuities, kind of like long-term care insurance, Tim, kind of get a little bit of a bad rap. And rightfully so, in some instances. And we’ll kind of talk through that. But I think a lot of people, at the end of the day, it’s an insurance product at heart. But you can intertwine in investment products. That’s typically what a variable annuity is or like an index annuity is with this.

But just like insurance, any other type of insurance, we don’t really like to give up our money in the form of a premium for coverage that we may or may not need. I think annuity is a little bit of a different breed. But there seems to be, again, some negative connotations around annuities mainly because like I got to give up my money for something that’s kind of nebulous in exchange.

And I think for those reasons, it’s kind of more psychological that people are like, “Hmm, I’m going to stick to I have a million. It’s a 4% withdrawal rate. It’s $40,000 a year. Couple that with social security. I’m good.”

And for a lot of reasons, maybe not so much. That 4% rule, I think a lot of people are looking at that and saying, “Hmm, going forward, I don’t know. That’s not necessarily the best rule of thumb to be using.”

I think for all of those reasons and probably others that I didn’t mention, that we kind of shy away from this as a tool to be used in retirement. And again, I think that – I think everything should be on the table more or less. And biases aside to see, okay, what are the goals of the client? What’s the balance sheet look like? And then move from there.

[00:05:51] TU: Yeah. And Tim, before we even jump into what is an annuity at a high level, what are the types of products that are out there? Advantages? Disadvantages. We’re going to get into that in more detail. But I think it’s important to take a step back and view this from the lens of building a retirement paycheque, right?

We talked about that previously on the podcast. We’ll link to that episode in the show notes. But here, what we’re talking about is a sliver, apart, perhaps an important part, annuities, that are a broader part of how we’re going to build a retirement income stream. How we’re going to replace what was our paycheque and build that retirement income? I think it’s important that we lay that framework as we get into the weeds on the annuities.

[00:06:34] TB: Yeah. I mean, I think, at the end of the day, when we are thinking about a financial plan, a lot of roads point to, “Can I accumulate enough assets to then not have to rely on a pay cheque and can kind of live my life?” And this topic is – a lot of us, we focus more so just on the accumulation phase and like save and invest, save and invest. But then when we get to the end of it, it’s like, “All right, how do we actually turn this into a sustainable paycheque for the rest of our lives with that timeline being unknown?” And that’s one of the things that annuities address. Because it’s unknown, the payment for a lot of these annuities can go out to the rest of your life. It addresses some longevity risk.

It’s a crucial part of this discussion. And that’s why we’ve been big proponents of Social Security claiming strategy. It’s one of the most important decisions that you make in retirement. And this type of discussion around annuities and longevity risk is right there.

I think it’s something that we should definitely bring to the top of the fold and make sure that we are situating this in a way that it goes back to kind of that retirement paycheck. And how does this all fit together?

[00:07:49] TB: Yeah. And speaking of longevity risk, I pitched a question out there on LinkedIn to say, “Hey, Tim and I are going to be talking about annuities on the podcast. What questions do you have? Would love to hear from the community.” And one of the things that Bryce on LinkedIn said, to your point about longevity risk, is frame it as like the opposite of life insurance. You’re ensuring the risk of living longer than expected instead of shorter than expected. Tim, what are your thoughts on that viewpoint? And I guess, as a part of that, just what is an annuity and how does it work?

[00:08:17] TU: I think it’s dead on. I think what Bryce said is when you think about longevity risk, that’s the risk that people are living longer than they expect, right? I can go on to socialsecurity.gov, put in my gender and my birthday, and says, “Okay, based on all of the data that they’ve collected since the beginning of time or for as long social security has been around, you’re going to live to 88.6-years-old.”

But, Tim, I’m not going out like that. I’m going to be here until 95, 105. I’m going to be here for a while. That means that I potentially have 10, 15, maybe 20 years that, according to my plan – again, we as planners, we go out a little bit further to kind of model that. But think about having a decade worth of expenses. Probably a lot of medical expenses that aren’t accounted for. That’s what longevity risk is. That, to me, is one of the things that an annuity addresses.

An annuity refers to an insurance contract where you give the insurance company money, typically in the form of a premium, and they invest the funds either very, very conservatively or could be more aggressively with the idea of paying you back an income stream in the future. That could be a fixed income stream. That could be a variable income stream. There’re so many different flavors of ice cream when it comes to annuities, Tim. That’s the basic concept.

Typically, you really have two phases in annuity. You have what’s called the accumulation phase, where this is the annuities being funded. And it’s before the payouts begin. Any money in the annuity kind of grows on a tax-deferred basis during this stage. And then the second phase is the annuitization phase, where you say, “Hey, either I have the option or per the contract that I set up five years ago. It was a deferred annuity for five years.” Now these payments start and they are X based on the underlying performance of the investments or just what you agreed to five years ago. Again, there’re lots of different types of variation here. But essentially, that’s it.

It’s kind of like Social Security, but not Social Security. The big difference is that Social Security, even with all the negative headlines, it’s still backed by the US government. There’re lots of fears there that benefits will be changed in the future. I think they will be to kind of keep it solvent. It’ll still be there. This is kind of like private Social Security in a sense where you say, “Hey, not US government.” But, “Hey, insurance company, here’s money either all at once or over whatever premium schedule that you set up. And then give me that money back in the form of an income stream.”

What you’re doing is you’re increasing guaranteed income. Really, the only guaranteed income that most people will have, because pensions have really kind of gone away, is social security. What you’re trying to do is increase guaranteed income. And again, one of the things you have to look at is how is the insurance company rated? Are they rated well or not? Because there is risk of failure there and we’ve seen some bank failures that have, I think, shocked some people. That’s one of the things that you have to make sure that you are in tune with. But that’s essentially the broad strokes of an annuity.

[00:11:36] TU: And, Tim, great point about the comparison to Social Security. It obviously operates very different. But we’ll come back here in a little bit about the concept of a flooring strategy. But essentially, if we think about, again, replacing our paycheck with a retirement income stream. For most folks, even with the negative press around on Social Security, it may be that, hey, from Social Security, and then plus or minus an annuity, we’re going to have some type of – let’s call it base income, right? Oversimplifying a little bit because of how those can fluctuate and be variable in the different products. But drawing on some type of base. And then we can talk about how to make up the rest of the paycheck from there.

Types of annuities. Tim, I know this is a lot to cover in a short episode where we’re really focusing on some of the basics and we’re going to come back to this topic more in the future. But what are the main types of annuities. And how do they differ in terms of the structure and features?

[00:12:28] TB: I’m going to rattle off a bunch of different types of annuities. You have the immediate annuities, immediate fixed annuities, immediate variable annuities, deferred annuities, deferred income annuities, fixed deferred annuities, indexed annuities, variable deferred annuities. There’s –

[00:12:41] TU: Really easy to shop for, right? Is what you’re saying?

[00:12:44] TB: Yeah. Yeah. Super straightforward. We’ll put these in two kind of macro categories. You have kind of immediate versus is deferred. An immediate annuity is just that let’s say you’re retiring and you have a $2 portfolio. And you say, “Hey, I want to take some money off the table in terms of like my traditional portfolio. The market is blah-blah-blah. The volatility. I’m going to put a quarter million dollars into an immediate annuity.”

That means that I give the insurance company $250,000. And then within, I think, 13 months is what is considered an immediate annuity, you start receiving payments. A deferred annuity, the only difference is, is that you give that money today. And then 13-plus months later you get – there’s some growth there. Straight up, like if you do an immediate annuity today and you get that payment next month, the payment might be a little bit less. Versus if you wait 14 months, it might be a little bit more. That’s really the big difference.

One of the big products that’s out there that’s an immediate annuity is called a single premium immediate income annuity, a SPIA. These are contracts. Generally, start in providing income before 13 months after the date of deposit. They’re typically bought as a period certain.

One of the strategies that you could use – we just talked about social security and how powerful that could be. You could say, “Hey, I’m retiring at 65. I want to defer and get as many deferral credits for social security as possible. I’m going to buy a period certain of five years to get me to 70 so I can then claim Social Security.” That might be a way to kind of bridge the gap between that.

And I think that’s a viable strategy, Tim, which people don’t think of. They might say, ” I’m just going to draw down my traditional portfolio.” You can buy it for a single life. So, just me. Or you and a spouse. A joint life.

Obviously, the more people – typically, if it’s single life, and you are a guy, you are going to get paid higher. Versus a single life and you are female. Because females typically live longer. Single life versus joint life, if there’s two people, typically that payout is going to be less than a single life. Because there’s two basically occurrences for that annuity to kind of go away.

The SPIAs are typically lifetime income vehicles. You must be paid at least 12 months substantially in equal payments. But it can be not just monthly. It can be quarterly, semi-annual, or even annual payments.

Many SPIAs can accommodate a death benefit, which means that after you die, a lot of people – this is one of the misconceptions. A lot of people say, “All right if I give quarter million dollars to your insurance contract and I get one payment and then I keel over and die, I lose all that money.” And there are lots of ways to structure that to protect. It could be return of premium. It could be to pay it out for five or ten years. These are all kind of riders that you put on the annuity.

And then you have a deferred annuity, which is basically the same thing again. But it’s like 13-plus months later. The other macro category, Tim, that I would talk to is the fixed versus variable annuity. Fixed annuities provide regular periodic payments to the annuity. They’re fixed. They’re the same. Just like a mortgage. You pay the same, I guess if your taxes go up a little bit. But you pay the same thing month after month.

The variable annuity is based on the underlining performance of the funds that you kind of select. This is where the investment part comes in. You typically get a higher payment if the market does well and a lower payment if they don’t.

The big problem that I have with variable annuities is the commissions and fees associated with it. I’d almost – just like we talk about, buy term life insurance, invest the difference. Anytime you mix these products and there’s complexity upon complexity, typically means that the fees are going to go up.

But I would say the main types, immediate versus deferred, which is more about time-in. Fixed versus variable, which is more about the amount of payment that you’re going to receive connect it to whatever underlying investment that’s there.

Now if you do a fixed, the insurance company is going to invest it. They’re just going to invest it very safely and typically not necessarily tied to market. Maybe treasuries or bonds, things like that.

[00:17:04] TU: Tim, perhaps an oversimplification, but I would assume. I’m just thinking about this from why do these products exist. Obviously, they have to have viability from the person selling the policy, right? Just like a life insurance policy. And it feels like, while different based on variable or fix, that obviously they may be taking a larger lump sum of money investing and growing that at a greater return. Depending on the type of product and what you’re putting that money into. And then whatever they’re paying you out, in theory, their goal is to pay you out less so that they can make some money on the upside of that.

And that’s not a bad thing, right? I mean, in terms of if we want some stability – and we’ll talk about the flooring here in a moment. That’s what we’re willing to potentially give up is some of that higher upside. And obviously, we’re putting floor on some of the downside as well depending on the type of product. But is that generally how these products work from the institution standpoint of how they’re making money off of them?

[00:17:58] TB: Yeah. You know, no free lunch, right? In exchange for guaranteed income, I’m going to pull my money with other annuitants. And essentially, they’re playing the game of what do the morbidity table say? And can we still turn a profit?

But I think of it as I put in a quarter million, Tim. You put in a quarter million. Joe Schmo puts in a quarter million. And we’re all drawing on those funds. But Joe Schmo might die at age 75. You might live to age 105 and I might be somewhere in the middle.

But at the end of the day, you take a lot of maybe stress or some other things that are more soft, like more the human element, off the table. Because those checks are rolling in. I don’t have to worry about the markets as much. I mean, you still do. Because unless – we’ll talk about the flooring strategy.

But like one of the things that I think can stretch out retirees, especially in markets like this where it’s really volatile, they’re up and down, they’ll be kind of trending down over the last couple years, is that, “Hey, I started with a million bucks. I’m four years into retirement and I have $750,000. Or I have –” That’s because of what I’ve taken out. Because of losses. The annuity kind of addresses some of those things where it’s like, yeah, you might take a haircut at the start. But for that haircut, you’re getting $1,000, $1,500 on top of that Social Security that you have kind of rolling in.

[00:19:24] TU: And the emotional side.

[00:19:25] TB: Yeah.

[00:19:26] TU: Yeah. I mean, we haven’t talked a lot about that. Obviously, there’s a risk tolerance question here. But there’s also a peace of mind aspect to this as well in terms of building some of that base.

And I think Tim, what you just shared there in terms of the market changes are probably why we have seen such a strong uptick in the purchase. I shared those stats early on in the episode, right?

I mean, prior to that, we really were on this – what, 12, 14-year run of markets constantly going up. And obviously, we’ve had more volatility. And it would feel, like in a greater volatility or down market, the interests and annuities goes up. I mean, I think that would be human psychology, right?

[00:20:02] TB: You’re looking for more safety. And I would say that annuities typically are going to be – I think of myself as having more of an appetite for risk. But when I think about myself when I’m making these decisions in retirement, I feel like there’s a lot of appeal for this.

It’s like, “Okay, can I peel off a percentage of my traditional portfolio to turn that into an income stream that’s matched with my social security?” That like, at the end of the day, like everything could fall apart. But I still have enough to pay for my living expenses. Like all that kind of stuff. And I think that’s a big deal.

[00:20:41] TU: Tim, I have this visual of like you and I in our 80s like sitting on our rockers, like drawing on the annuities. And like I’m still waiting for the Bills to win a Super Bowl. You’re still waiting for the Sixers process to work out that’s taken forever.

[00:20:54] TB: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:20:55] TU: We’ll see where that goes.

[00:20:55] TB: Yeah, it’s going to happen. I think that the Sixers are good for a run.

[00:20:58] TU: This is the year. This is the year.

[00:21:00] TB: This is the year.

[00:21:01] TU: We’ll see yeah so let’s talk about how annuities fit into the broader income strategy. We’ve danced around this a couple times now with the flooring strategy. We’ve talked about that previously on an episode that we covered Social Security. We’ll link to that in the show notes. But talk to us about annuities as part of the retirement income strategy and creating that floor.

[00:21:19] TB: Yes. Again, I think when we’re looking at this, essentially, we’re trying to address kind of the four ‘Ls’ of retirement. It would be longevity. Do we have enough money to sustain us throughout lifestyle? Are we living the lifestyle that we want to live? Or do we have to adapt that because we didn’t plan enough, or we didn’t save enough, or whatever that looks like? Legacy. What do we leave behind to heirs? Or what are the things that are important to us that we want to make sure that we’re focusing on? And finally, liquidity. Do we have enough money that we can you know pull for those discretionary things?

To me, we’re kind of looking at – with an annuity, we’re trying to address I would say like three major – actually, probably four major risks in retirement. One is the longevity risk, which we’ve talked about. One is excess withdrawal risk, which means that if we’re trying to build a paycheck, there is a risk that we’re going to be pulling too much, especially in the early years. Maybe we’re pulling 5%, 6%, 7% early on. And then later on, we have to pull a lot less because we just pulled too much early on. Or the market is wonky, which is probably the third risk, which is market risk. We want to, with annuity, try to eliminate the volatility.

And probably the other one that’s maybe not necessarily talked about is like early loss of spouse. If you have social security, you and a spouse potentially could be pulling in two checks. But then when that spouse dies, now you have one. Annuity can help that as well, where you still have the dollars coming in.

When we look at it from a flooring approach, the flooring approach is probably the most conservative approach to building a retirement paycheck. The flooring approach calls for special products to be used, a la annuities, to set the floor. What we essentially are trying to do is establish what are the essential spending amounts that we need? And then what are the discretionary amounts that we need? The basic needs would be food, shelter, clothing, transportation, insurance premiums, and health expenses.

The main tools to kind of basically set that floor is going to be social security. Pensions, if you got them. Could be things like a bond ladder or TIPS and I bonds. And probably the last one is the annuity with fixed terms that have fixed terms or fixed payments. Or typically lifetime income streams.

To kind of walk through an example here, is that I might sit down with a client and say, “All right. We have between house and food, gas, utilities, maybe some debt still, medical insurance, that’s going to be $5,400 a month.” And then if we add up all the discretionary between travel, gifts, dining out, entertainment, hobbies, maybe that’s another 2,000. I’m really going to look at that as two separate buckets. We’ll say 5,400 for essential and 2000 for discretionary.

When I try to line up those income streams of like how are we going to cover the essential expenses? I know that this particular client, their benefit from Social Security is going to be $3,000 per month. I know that I have about a 2,400 gap. We’ll round it up to 2,500. About a 2,500 gap for those essential expenses.

What most people do is that that’s when they typically say, “Hey, 4% rule. Draw down the portfolio.” What the flooring strategy says is, “Okay, we have 3,000. We want to get to, say, 5,500 for the essentials. Let’s go out and peel off part of the traditional portfolio and have an annuity fill in that 2,400, 2,500 per month gap.”

So now, we go out, we say, “Okay, we’re going to take X from the traditional portfolio and we’re going to have a $3,000 check coming in for Social Security and then a $2,500 check coming in for the annuity.” That $5,500 meets the floor of those basic essential expenses. And then the remainder of the traditional portfolio, the 401K, the IRA, the simple IRA, the TSP, for those $2,000 for discretionary, we’re going to pull from the retirement portfolio. It could also be for part-time work, consultant work, or whatever.

But that’s the idea, is that create the floor with – if the wheels come off, we have to pay these no matter what. And then the rest, kind of the fund money, comes from the traditional portfolio.

For a lot of people, it’s just too conservative because they’re like, “I don’t want to give up X amount of my traditional portfolio for that $2,500 payment.” I was messing around with the immediate annuities.com. And you can put in a lot of different information to get a quote.

Just give you an example, Tim. I put in my information as if I was 65 and Shea was 60. And I said, “All right, I’m going to put in $250,000.” Let’s pretend I have a $2 million portfolio. I’m going to basically spend that down essentially to 1.75. That $250,000, if I were to basically buy an immediate life annuity, this would cover my life and her life. Would basically pay me out $1,308 for the rest of my life.”

[00:26:38] TU: Per month.

[00:26:38] TB: Per month.

[00:26:39] TU: Yeah.

[00:26:40] TB: If you do life plus 10 years certain. This would be – if I buy this annuity at 65, and then I die at 67 and she dies at – she’s five years younger, 65 herself. It would pay out to the beneficiaries 10 years. There’s also one. That would go down a little bit. That’s 1,299.

[00:27:00] TU: Which makes sense, because you’re getting that additional benefit. Yeah.

[00:27:04] TB: If it’s life with a cash refund – this is like the whole, “Hey if I give the insurance money and I get two payments, do I not get my money back?” Life with a cash refund. Basically, what’s left there, that payment goes down to 1,267.

And then it shows like five-year period certain. This was that whole idea of like, “Hey, if I want to extend Social Security or wait to do that,” if I do $250,000 for five years, you get 4,584 for those five years. 10-year period certain, 2,528. There are so many different variations of this in terms of how you purchase.

[00:27:39] TU: I’m curious. Like 250k, let’s just look at that more simple kind of straight option. 250k that you’re giving up of a nest egg of whatever, $2 million, $3 million, that you’re going to get about $1,300 per month and that was going to cover you and Shea. What are your thoughts on that, right? Because I hear that, I kind of feel the emotional tug in my brain, right? There’s the safety security side that’s like, “Oh, man. I know a check’s coming in every month for 1,300 a month.”

Assuming that I’ve saved enough for that 250k, isn’t going to be a massive percentage of the nest egg? I like that security. And then the other side, I’m like, “Geez! That’s only – what? 13,000, 14,000 a year.

When you look at kind of floor income, I too think of myself as being a little bit more aggressive. And what could that 250 be worth if it grows? You start to get into risk tolerance and some of the analytical side. What’s your gut reaction when you hear 250k to 1,300?

[00:28:35] TB: I don’t know. I mean, again, I think about in the context of like $2 million portfolio, peel off a quarter million. Basically, a quarter million turns into 1,300. For whatever reason, I don’t hate that. I think that like, again, our strategy probably is going to be for us to defer Social Security and wait as long as possible. That payment is going to be pretty substantial.

And then if you pepper in what you can get to at least reach that floor, I think that like just like any time you get like an insurance policy or your estate plan is set, I think there’s a could be like a feeling of like maybe you give up some upside. But like – I don’t know. I mean, I think like if I look at the worries that I would have in retirement, I’m less worried about legacy and I’m more worried about can my money sustain me?

[00:29:24] TU: Which is interesting part of the plan, right? And that to me speaks to the value of, like we say all the time, not looking at this in a silo. Even what you just raise, where does someone sit in terms of their feelings around legacy and maybe leaving money to family or leaving big philanthropic gifts? Or is there risk or concern on the longevity side? Those bigger questions have to be discussed and answered before we can determine what’s the pathway that we’re going to take in purchasing annuity.

[00:29:55] TB: If you look at it from the insurance perspective. If I’m 65 and I live to 95, that’s 30 years of $1,300 payments per month. When you multiply that out, that’s like $471,000. That I’m giving 250, I’m getting 2 – is there a risk that I die before that? Yeah. But you can also put those writers in that say, “Okay, you can get your premium back or a period certain.”

What would that 250 do outside of it? To me, it’s like when you get – I think my approach to this is like I want to be as aggressive and pedal to the metal. But then when I get to like decision time right as I’m setting up my paycheck, I want – and that’s why we talk about like Social Security. I want as much guaranteed income as I can get with reason, right?

I don’t know. Is it a quarter million? Is that half a million? Is it a hundred thousand? And again, like a quarter million out of a $1 million portfolio is a lot different animal. I want to make sure that I don’t have a $2 million portfolio. I have a $4 million, $5 million, $6 million portfolio that I can then look at this.

It’s an exercise in kind of a little bit of the what-ifs. But like what do you value? For me, again, if we put ourselves back on the beach and I’m complaining about the six years and you’re complaining about the bills, the checks are rolling in. Social Security, the annuity check. I guess what I would argue is I’m less concerned about the markets, which my dad, every time I talk to him, maybe because I’m a financial planner. He’s like, “Oh, the market. Blah-blah-blah. My socks.” And I’m like, “Cool.”

[00:31:29] TU: What?

[00:31:30] TB: Yeah. Like, how are those word searches going? But like I think the other argument that you can make is that you can afford more risk in a portfolio. Now the regulars might disagree with this. But this is something that the RICP was saying, is like, “If you can show in the grand scheme of things that you have two clients. One client that is straight, systemic withdrawal, 4% rule, blah-blah-blah.” Like, as you go through the eye of the storm, which is plus or minus five or ten years before and after retirement, you have to be super conservative. But if I can make the case that this client has what they need, then I don’t necessarily have to be as conservative. And I can still let the market do what it does over long periods of time, which is return 10%, 7% as we adjust down for inflation.

[00:32:17] TU: That was my thought. As a piece of this we haven’t talked about, what you’re alluding to right now, is for those folks that have a sizable nest egg. Let’s say that the math shows they need three, but they’ve saved five or six. That’s a very different conversation than someone that maybe, “Hey, I needed two and I’m at 1.2.”

Because it opens up. Again, depending on someone’s goal of risk tolerance, all the factors we need to discuss. If someone has a nest egg of five and the math says they needed three, if there’re other things they want to take more risk with, whether it’s in a traditional portfolio, whether, “Hey, I want to start a business. I want to start a foundation. I want to do X, Y, or Z.” This, to me, is very intriguing that you can write a check for an annuity that doesn’t have as big of an impact on percentage of the overall nest egg. And gives you some of that freedom and capacity not only mathematically, but mentally, to take some of that other risk.

[00:33:11] TB: Yeah. And I think that’s one of the things I think is underrated and all this. It’s just the mental, the psychological aspect of it. Because, again, many retirees, they have social security. But a lot of their paycheck is based on their portfolio. You’re spending that down. Whereas I would make the argument, you have a big chunk that comes out with like the flooring strategy. But then you’re spending that down a lot less comparison.

It’s a little bit of – for me personally if you check most of the boxes, I’m like risky, risky, risky. But then like I’m thinking about this in the context of like, me personally, I’m like, “I don’t know. That sounds pretty good.” If I can convert some chunk of my traditional portfolio to a lifetime income payment and not have to worry as much about a lot of these external factors that we have no control over.

[00:33:58] TU: Which, let me get on the soapbox here for a minute, Tim. This, to me, is such a great example of why having a partner, a planner, a coach in your corner is so valuable. We talk about this at length on the show. But especially in products like this. The same can be said for a long-term disability policy. The same could be said for purchasing a home. Because of how these are marketed, it takes us down a pathway of making a decision on a singular part of the plan, right?

And this is such a great example where we’re really talking about much broader issues, which is, “Hey, an annuity is one part of the retirement income strategy,” which we got to know what else is going on in the rest of the financial plan to be able to know where are we at in terms of building that retirement paycheck, which that information is needed to then determine what we may or may not need in an annuity. And then, obviously, the nuances within the annuity options.

But behind all of that is what’s the point? What’s the purpose? What do I want to accomplish? What’s the risk? What’s the goals? And this is the behavioral part of the plan that I know, Tim, I fall victim to. Like I’m punching numbers in the calculator. And I’m on the website you’re on and I’m like, “Ah. I love it. I don’t love it.” And I quickly lose sight of, “All right. Step back. What’s the purpose? What’s the plan? What are we trying to accomplish? What are we trying to achieve?” And where does this one important but very small part fit within the context of everything else we’re trying to do?

[00:35:24] TB: A lot of these things all fit together. Another thing that we’ve never talked about, which I think has a pretty nasty reputation, is even like things like reverse mortgages. And like how does that fit with this? Yeah, it’s multi-factor – like there’re just so many things to consider.

And I think a lot of people, one, they want to know, are they okay? Are they crazy? And I think pharmacists in particular, they want to know that like the math kind of supports that.

The cool thing about like what we can do is we can model all of these things out and say like, “Okay, this is how it affects you.” You know, the bottom line at the end of the day. And I think that this is another vote in the annuity corner, is I feel like sometimes, in retirement, people, they get so preoccupied with their money and with what the market is doing.

And part of it is like you’re not – your day-to-day, especially early in retirement, there’s this kind of like, “All right, I reached the finish line. My identity has been I’m a pharmacist.” Like a lot of that’s tied up. And like, you know you try to fill. And a lot of it goes to things like finances and the markets and things like that.

But when you look at your goals, like it’s typically not what you really want to do or enjoy doing. Some people do. But I think if you can take some of that stress out and really focus on what matters most, which might be volunteering, or traveling and things like that, and not have to worry about that. I mean, I think that’s a huge benefit.

One of the things we haven’t talked about, there are lots of cons to annuities as well. There’re pros. But there’re cons as well that you have to be kind of aware of and before you make that decision. Because it’s a decision that you can’t really reverse.

[00:37:05] TU: Let’s jump into one of those cons, Tim, which I often hear about. And before I started to dive more into this topic, I certainly had that talking point, which was fees, fees, fees, right? Annuities equals fees. And we probably underestimate the impact of those fees on the overall value of the product. Talk to us more objectively about the fees. How they work on these products? And what we should be considering?

[00:37:27] TB: Yeah. When you think about the costs, the fees, related fees, obviously, you have the premiums. That’s what you give the insurance company for that income stream. But I remember when I got into financial planning, Tim, when I worked in the broker-dealer world, one of the things that I heard was like sell variable annuities. And I’m like, “Why?” And like because they pay 6% to 8% commission. And it was like just talked about like that.

[00:37:53] TU: Do the math on that, right? A couple hundred thousand dollars.

[00:37:56] TB: Yeah. And I’m like, “Okay, the ones that have the higher commissions are – they have the longer surrender period.” Their surrender period, or their surrender charge, is where annuitants cannot make withdrawals during like a period of time or they get penalized. They pay a surrender charge or a fee. And these typically can last five, six, seven eight years. That’s involved.

There are annuities that will work with like the fee-only community like us, where they’re commission-free. But they still have to make money somewhere. It could be where they have admin fees. I wouldn’t make money as an advisor because I get paid differently. But there are still admin fees. Could be a mortality expense. This is the compensation that the insurance company basically earns for taking a risk of like you outliving that amount of money that you give them.

It could be if it is investment, like a variable annuity or an index annuity that there’s the expense ratio that you pay for those investments. And then all those riders. You know, you can have a rider for long-term care insurance that you can access your policy for long-term care. I should say, it could be a rider for return a premium. Or there’s lots of different writers that you can kind of tack on.

That’s one of the things that, regardless of the annuity that you elect to purchase, you’ll likely have to pay at least administrative and mortality expenses. Again, some will not have surrender. Some will not have commissions. And the ones that I typically like, which are typically like the SPIA. Keep it simple stupid. Those are going to be the cheapest for that.

But again, if I pay 1% or 2% to get a lifetime income, I’m willing to have that conversation. Versus I don’t know if I’m going to have that conversation at 6%, 7%, 8%.

[00:39:47] TU: Yeah. Tim, I’m not ashamed about the bias I’m going to have here and saying what I say because we’re proud of the value of fee-only fiduciary advice. This is an example where separating the advice from the purchasing of the policy is really valuable, right?

[00:40:02] TB: Totally.

[00:40:02] TU: If I’m totally in an annuity and I’m trying to understand the nuances. What do I need? What do I not need? Not only does a good-fee only planner able to see the rest of the plan and help us advise it. But when we’re in that purchase decision, which is true with any other insurance policy as well. And that insurance policy is tied to a commission, separating the advice from the commission of the policy can be really valuable.

We’re looking at two, three, four options. Understanding what we do or don’t need. Doesn’t mean people that are selling annuities are bad. But just understanding where the conflicts may arise. And then how do we mitigate those so we can ensure we get what we do need and don’t get what we don’t want?

[00:40:40] TB: Yeah. Tim, variable annuities, and non-traded REITs. Back in the day, those were like sell those. And it was because of those commissions were just ridiculously high. And again, I think most people are inherently good and they want to do right by the client.

But also, if you’re in that system, like you don’t really bat an eye at that. Where I’m like, “Geez.” I was new. I was like that doesn’t seem like something that we should just – I don’t want to say flaunt. But it didn’t sit well with me.

[00:41:11] TU: Tim, last question I want to ask you before we wrap up here. Refers to the pre-tax, after-tax component. My understanding is that annuities can be purchased with both pre-tax and after-tax dollars. And so, how does the tax treatment of annuities differ depending on the type of annuity and how it’s funded?

[00:41:27] TB: Yeah. I think the tax treatment, I think the best way to understand it is that think of it as very similar to a pre-tax and an after-tax IRA. If you purchase – say, we use that example. Let’s say I have my $2 million portfolio but a million of that is from a traditional – a pre-tax IRA. And I’m going to peal the $250,000 for my SPIA out of my pre-tax IRA.

Essentially, the funding source is pre-tax. That annuity will be qualified. It’ll be funded with pre-tax money. Essentially, that means that when those payments start to come out, they are taxed as ordinary income just like it would be if I just withdrew it from the IRA.

[00:42:15] TU: To move down to Florida?

[00:42:17] TB: Yeah, exactly. Right. Exactly. I can void state Yeah. If I say, “Hey, on second thought, I want to fund my annuity with after-tax dollars.” Let’s say I use a Roth or it could be even let’s say a brokerage account. Those are post-tax dollars. You only pay taxes on the earnings or interest portion of the distribution but not the principal.

They look at the bulk of that payment come back as like a return in principle. think of it very similarly to how you would just distribute a traditional 401k or a Roth 401k. One of the things to call out is that annuities still have that 10%. If you do this before 59 and a half, you still have a 10 penalty on those qualified annuities.

I think there is – and don’t quote me on this. But I think if you say I’m 57, so I’m before 59 and a half, and I buy a SPIA and I knew – that means I basically annuitized that within 13 months. I think that circumvents that role because you’re basically drawing it out immediately. I think there are a little bit of like variations to the tax and the penalties. But pretty much I would say think of it as how you would distribute a pre-tax or an after-tax account.

[00:43:32] TU: Tim, great stuff. We’ve covered a lot. But we’re just dabbling into the topic of annuities. One that we’re going to be talking more about along with other topics, especially to those pharmacists that are in that mid-career, pre-retiree, retiree. Things that we know are top of mind as they evaluate that transition maybe soon or a little bit later into retirement.

And I really want to call out, as we wrap up here, our financial planning services offered by our five certified financial planners at YFP Planning. We work with pharmacists at all stages of their career. Whether you’re nearing retirement and you’re thinking about this decision on annuity. Whether you’re in the middle of your career. Or whether you’re a new practitioner, we have one-on-one comprehensive financial planning that is ready to meet your needs based on your goals and your stage of career.

For those that are new practitioners, we’ve got a foundational financial planning offering. For those that are more in the middle to later in their careers, we have a wealth management service. And I will link to in the show notes a link where you can book a free discovery call with Justin, pharmacist from our team, to learn more about those services and whether or not they’re a good fit for what you’re looking for.

Tim, thanks so much, as always. And looking forward to get back to it in the future.

[00:44:41] TB: You got it.

[OUTRO]

[00:44:43] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home.

A lot of pharmacists and the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% down payment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time home buyers and has no PMI on a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage.

To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to get started with the pre-approval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the date published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacists.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 247: 10 Common Financial Mistakes Pharmacists Make

Posted on March 17, 2022November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

10 Common Financial Mistakes Pharmacists Make

On this episode, sponsored by APhA, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, talks about ten common financial mistakes pharmacists make.

Episode Summary

In this episode, Your Financial Pharmacist Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, flies solo to dive into ten common financial mistakes that pharmacists make. Tim talks through the math behind the age-old retirement advice that we have all heard, “save early and save often.” He discusses some common mis-prioritization of investments that leave tax savings on the table, like prioritizing non-tax favored investment accounts. Tim further discusses two common student loan mistakes that can cost folks tens of thousands of dollars and in some cases, much more than that; paying too much interest and not maximizing PSLF. Tim shares about the importance of having an emergency fund, protecting your income, and saving for your kid’s college in the correct order. He details common financial missteps such as accepting that income is fixed (because it will change) and failing to or delaying retirement savings, plus some long-term impacts of each. Tim then wraps up with another look at tax planning and how proper tax planning each year (not just tax filing) can affect the financial plan. Lastly, Tim explains how having a financial planner that does not have your best interest in mind can be one of the biggest mistakes that you don’t have to make.

Key Points From This Episode

The number one mistake on our list: paying too much interest on your student loan debt.
Tim shares the way to shift your mindset away from the ‘monopoly money’ feeling.
Diving into student loan strategy and the different buckets to consider.
Talking about service loan forgiveness and PSLF strategy, and how to maximize these.
Why emergency funds take a back seat and how to avoid delaying getting one.
Some tips on starting your emergency fund.
Mistake number four: protecting your income.
Accepting your income is fixed, and factoring in inflation and debt loads.
Putting numbers to the retirement savings saying of ‘save early, save often.’
Investing in a way that maximizes your tax savings!
A reminder of why it’s crucial to create a tax strategy and do your tax planning.
Talking about saving out of order for kid’s college.
How to get a certified financial planner who has your best interests at heart.

Highlights

“We tend to underestimate how much interest we’re going to pay over the life of a loan and therefore, we tend to underestimate how much we’re going to actually pay out of pocket.” — Tim Ulbrich, PharmD [0:08:37]

“When it comes to insurance, the balance point here is we want to not be underinsured, we want to make sure we can protect the time but we also don’t want to be over-insured.” — Tim Ulbrich, PharmD [0:19:23]

“You can borrow for your kid’s college, but you can’t borrow for your retirement.” — Tim Ulbrich, PharmD [0:30:48]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I fly solo to talk about 10 common financial mistakes that pharmacists make, no judgment as I’ve made many of these mistakes myself. Some of the highlights from today’s show includes talking through two common student loan mistakes that can cost folks tens of thousands of dollars and in some cases, much more than that, the math behind the age-old advice that we’ve all heard, save early and save often, as well as talking through some common mis-prioritization of investment that leaves tax savings on the table

Now, before we hear from today’s sponsor and then jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 households in 40 plus states. YFP planning offers free only, high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. Okay, let’s hear from today’s sponsor, and then we’ll jump into the show.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

Today’s episode of Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast is brought to you by the American Pharmacist Association. APhA is partnered with Your Financial Pharmacist to deliver personalized financial education benefits for APhA members. Throughout the year, APhA will be hosting a number of exclusive webinars covering topics like student loan debt payoff strategies, home buying, investing, insurance needs, and much more.

Join APhA now to gain premier access to these educational resources and to receive discounts on YFP products and services. You can join APhA at a 25% discount by visiting pharmacist.com/join and using the coupon code, YFP. Again, that’s pharmacist.com/join and using the coupon code YFP.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:08.5] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here, welcome to this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. I’m flying solo this week and we’re going to talk through 10 common financial mistakes that I see pharmacists often making, that we see pharmacists in the YFP community often making. As I mentioned in the introduction, there is no judgment here in these mistakes.

I’ve made many of these mistakes myself. My hope with this episode, through sharing some of those experiences and other common mistakes that we see folks making, is to hopefully prevent those, right? For others that are perhaps on this journey towards achieving financial freedom.

Before we jump into the 10 common mistakes that we’re going to talk about in today’s episode, I am not going to be covering a few things that are worth noting because I’m going to assume that you’ve got these bases already covered, right? Those would be things like having a budget and being intentional with your spending, so important, right?

We’ve ultimately got a certain amount of income to work with each month, we’ve got a lot of things that are competing for our attention financially, various goals, various expenses and so that budget is going to allow us to be intentional with our spending. I’m going to assume that that is already in place.

I’m also going to assume that we’ve either eliminated any high-interest rate, credit card debt that is revolving each month in a current interest or we’re going to avoid that if we possibly can, right? Very important is, we look at how the impact of that interest can really hurt us as we look at trying to achieve other goals.

Finally, of course, we need to minimize our lifestyle creep, right? For many pharmacists, we know that we see, certainly, a great income overall but that income often can be relatively flat throughout one’s career. Expenses tend to creep up on us over time, perhaps families grow, home expenses, other types of things throughout one’s career and so, we got to do our best to keep those expenses at bay and so that we can focus those limited dollars that we have on other goals each and every month.

Again, things I’m not going to cover, having that budget, being intentional, spending, avoiding, eliminating credit card debt, minimizing lifestyle creep. Now, what we are going to talk about are some common student loan mistakes, we’re going to get really tactical with some numbers that highlight why these mistakes can really have a significant negative impact and really ultimately leave a lot on the table that could be put elsewhere in the plan.

We’ll talk a little bit of our emergency funds and protecting the income. We’ll talk about a couple of things in the long-term savings, retirement side, in terms of prioritization and delaying of savings. Then I’ll wrap up by talking about tax planning as well as looking for a planner that has your best interest in mind.

All right, I hope you’re ready, I’m going to go quick, we’re going to hit a lot of information and we’re going to reference several resources throughout the show and we’ll of course, link to those who you could deep it to those deeper after the recording.

[0:04:49.0] Number one mistake on our list is paying too much interest when it comes to paying off our student loans. Now, you’ve heard me say a hundred times on this show, that pharmacists are facing significant student loan debt. The cost of 2021 to be exact, median debt load, have $170,000 as reported by the American Association Colleges of Pharmacy Graduating Student Survey.

Now, the good news is for the first time in over a decade, we’ve seen that number come down was $175,000 for the class of 2020. Bad news is, that’s still $170,000 and when we look at how interest accrues on a $170,000, those start to be really big numbers. One of the things I often say is that for me in my journey of paying off debt, when I was in school and even early on in the repayment journey, to be frank, it felt a little bit like monopoly money, right?

Once we get into active repayment, once we see the impact of that interest accruing, it starts to become really real, really quick. One of the ways I like to shift that mindset away from that feeling of monopoly money is to calculate the daily interest that is accruing on our loans. The way you do that is take your loan balance that currently remains, you multiply it by your interest rate and you divide it by 365 days.

If you were to have $170,000, let’s just say the Median debt load, $170,000 if we multiply that by 6% and assume that’s an average interest rate across our federal loans, and we divide them by 365, we’re looking at about $28 per day of interest that is accruing. $28 per day. Now, of course, as that $170,000 gets paid down to 160, 150, 140, et cetera or, and/or, we’re able to reduce that interest rate either through our process of refinancing or perhaps some forgiveness opportunity.

Then of course we’re going to see that impact of interest go down but that really is the opportunity cost that we need to be thinking about. $28 per day, if we look at the median debt load of a pharmacy graduate that is going towards interest alone as they begin that repayment period.

[0:06:47.8] One of the feelings I had early on in my repayment journey is I felt like I was spinning my wheels in terms of making substantial monthly payments but not feeling like I was really making a whole lot of progress and momentum towards getting that debt load paid off.

The reason that was and the reason that is for many of you that might be listening to this show, is because the amount of that payment that goes toward interest, right? When we look at big debt loads like 170, 180, $200,000 or perhaps even more at interest rates, six, seven percent, maybe higher on some private loans, what we see is pretty big monthly payments but we also see a lot of that that is going directly towards the interest.

Let me give you an example. If somebody has $170,000, again, let’s just use a 6% average interest rate, if we assume they’re going to pay that off over a 10 year period, that would be the standard repayment option, 120 fixed monthly payments, what we see is a monthly payment of about $1,900 per month for 120 payments or 10 years. $1,900, fixed payment for 10 years.

Now, of that $1,900 that first payment, about $1,000, 45% or so is going to go towards principal and about $850 is going to go towards interest. Right out of the gates, we see that in a standard 10-year repayment about half is going to put a dent in the actual principle and about half is going to go towards interest. And of course, with each monthly payment that we make, we’re going to see a little bit more going toward principle and a little bit less going towards interest.

[0:08:19.2] This is why folks often feel like, “Hey Tim, I’m making big monthly payments but I don’t feel like I’m progressing as quickly as I would like to in terms of getting this paid off” and that’s because of the interest that is accruing on those payments.

One of the common mistakes here that we’re talking about in terms of paying too much interest is we tend to underestimate how much interest we’re going to pay over the life of a loan and therefore, we tend to underestimate how much we’re going to actually pay out of pocket.

I see this all the time and talk with the pharmacy students, they may say, “Hey, I’m borrowing $20,000 a semester” let’s say for tuition cost, the living expenses, they multiply it by eight semesters and they think, “Hey, that’s roughly my student loan debt number.”

Now, what they’re forgetting is of course the interest that’s accruing while they’re in school, outside of administrative forbearance period, such that we’re in right now, and they’re also not including the interest that’s going to accrue while they’re in active repayment, right?

If we’re looking at a 10 year, perhaps for some it’s even a little bit longer repayment journey, then we’re going to see a significant amount of interest that’s also accruing throughout the life of a loan.

That’s why often, folks look up and say, “Wow, that’s a lot more that’s getting paid back than I really had anticipated was going to initially be the case.” What we want to be thinking about here as we talk about this first common mistake, paying too much interest is, what can we be doing to minimize the interest that we’re paying?

[0:09:38.9] That’s where we really get into student loan repayment strategy, right? A topic we have covered, lots of different ways on this show and there’s several different buckets that we need to consider.

That could be tuition reimbursement programs, forgiveness programs, either public service or nonpublic service loan forgiveness programs or we’re going to pay them off but we have an option perhaps to move our loans into the private sector through a refinance that’s going to help us reduce that interest.

The first couple of areas that come to mind if I’m thinking about, “Hey, how can I avoid paying too much interest?” is number one, could I have somebody else pay the bill, right? That could either be through a tuition reimbursement program or through forgiveness, whether that’s PSLF offer or non-PSLF, if that’s not viable or of interest, then perhaps, might I be able to reduce my interest rate through a process of refinancing.

One of the things that we want to avoid is staying in a status quo position in terms of staying in the federal system, paying a high-interest rate, or paying a high private rate, if there’s a better option out there, whether that be forgiveness or whether that be considering a refinance.

A couple of things to think about as we talk about that first mistake of paying too much interest and I’m going to reference a resource here where you can dig more into student loan repayment strategies to evaluate that further.

[0:10:50.9] Number two mistake on our list of 10 is not maximizing public service loan forgiveness. Now, we have talked about this on the show extensively but I feel the need to continue to shout from the mountain top about this topic because there’s a lot of folks that maybe have the option or pursue public service loan forgiveness and for whatever reason aren’t making that choice or folks that are kind of half in and they’re half out, right?

We’re leaving something on the table. When it comes to public service loan forgiveness, assuming that’s the right play for you and your personal financial situation, if we go that pathway, the goal is optimize and maximize forgiveness and minimize what’s out of pocket, right?

When I say, the common mistake here is not maximizing PSLF, what I’m referring to is that we’re leaving something on the table, either we’re paying more interest that we could have forgiven, or/and potentially, we’re not optimizing certain situations that would allow us to be able to also save through our forgiveness period.

One of the things we need to do here is actually break down the numbers of what this means for your personal situation. Now, I’m not going to go through the rules of PSLF, again, we’ve talked about that extensively on the show before, highlights here, we have to work for the right type of employer so 501(c)(3), not for profit or federal government agency or organization.

You have to be in the right kind of loan, so a direct loan, we’ve had some provisions with the Biden administration that have allowed some forgiveness and latitude on that, we’re going to talk about that more in an upcoming show. You have to be in the right repayment plan, which is an income-driven repayment plan.

[0:12:22.8] You have to make 120 payments and be consecutive but 120 qualifying payments before you’re ultimately applying for and receive tax-free forgiveness. Now, one of the things folks often omit, when they’re thinking about optimizing PSLF is really trying to figure out what can I be doing to pay less towards my student loans so that more is forgiven and that really gets to how the monthly payment is calculated towards your student loans when you’re in PSLF through an income-driven repayment plan.

The formula that is used is they take an amount that’s called your discretionary income and that is included of your adjusted gross income, so your taxable income reported on your tax returns, so your AGI, minus 150% of the property level, that is your discretionary income and then that gets multiplied by a certain percentage.

Just by definition of that calculation, there’s some things that we can do if we look at that discretionary income. That AGI minus that 150% poverty level, hopefully, you’re asking yourself, “What could I be doing to lower my AGI?” right? We don’t want to make less money but, “What I could be doing in terms of optimizing strategies to lower my AGI so that I can pay less towards my student loans, increase the amount that’s forgiven, and perhaps also, move forward other financial goals at the same time?”

What we know, what you know from listening to the show is there are strategies that we could do to lower our AGI, right? We think about accounts like 401(k) contributions, 403(b) contributions, HSA contributions. This is where we get to the strategy and the numbers start to become pretty wild in terms of not only optimizing what is forgiven tax-free but also, what could we be putting towards investments that over this repayment period of 10 years with PSLF, we also take advantage of compound interest and compound growth over that period of time.

[0:14:16.0] You know, it doesn’t take a whole lot of whole numbers in terms of putting money away at three, five, seven percent of compounded growth each year. Again, it’s not just the tax-free forgiveness that of course is a huge benefit but also, what can we be doing to moving forward in accelerating our investment plan. That’s the second mistake, not optimizing our PSLF strategy.

Now, a couple of resources I want to point you to here. Student loan repayment, you’ve heard me say it many times, one of the most important decisions pharmacists are going to make early in their career, one that we don’t want to walk into blindly, one that we don’t want to replicate what somebody else is doing that may not be a good fit for our situation.

This decision can be the difference, easily of tens of thousands of dollars, if not more, based on the option you choose and so, I really want you to invest the time and the energy to understanding this loan repayment options, as nuanced as they are. We’ve got a great comprehensive resource, The Ultimate Guide to Pay Back Pharmacy School Loans. It’s a free blog, comprehensive, almost like an ebook, to be honest, you can download that, read that blog at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/ultimate and we’ll link to that in the show notes.

Now, for those of you that are saying, “Hey, the information is great but I want one-on-one help with an expert that knows this in and out.” We do have a one-on-one student loan analysis survey that pairs you up with a YFP Planning certified financial planner and the goal of that is to analyze all of your options and ultimately decide on the best repayment plan for your situation.

You can learn more about that service at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/sla. Again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/sla. All right, that’s number two, not maximizing PSLF.

[0:15:57.3] Number three is delaying the emergency fund. Now, we just came off of talking about student loan repayment, right? That’s a gorilla that is often in the room. Many folks are also trying to think about saving and investing for the future, perhaps there’s a home purchase, kids that might be involved, kid’s college, the expenses, and the list of expenses goes on and on.

Sometimes, the emergency fund can take a back seat for a couple of reasons. Number one, it’s not very exciting, when you think about making progress on our debt, to become ultimately debt-free whether that’s by paying them off or forgiveness or saving for investing for the future.

Those are typically a little bit more exciting goals to be thinking about. Putting money away in a savings account that’s going to earn minimal but not too exciting amount of interest and it’s there if we need it but hopefully, you don’t, not super exciting, right?

This often may fall by the wayside but the purpose and the goal of that emergency fund is to protect the financial plan when, not if, but when an emergency happens, and work from a position of financial strength with the rest of the plan, right?

[0:16:57.2] This could be a short-term job loss, gap of employment, this could be a health emergency, an emergency with the home, the list of things that could be involved here obviously go on and speaking from personal situations, something will come up at some point, probably not too distant in the futures that is going to require you to tap into this emergency fund.

Generally speaking, our target here is three to six months’ worth of essential expenses. Not to say three to six months’ worth of income but three to six months’ worth of our essential expense because there can be a place where we have too much in this emergency fund. Obviously, we want to be comfortable with that amount but too much means opportunity cost of dollars that could be used elsewhere in the plan.

Now, in terms of where to put it, generally speaking, we’re going to be looking at a long-term savings account, a money market account, somewhere that we can get to the money, it’s a liquid, it’s accessible, it’s running a little bit of interest more than you’re going to see in a checking account, typically which is closer to zero.

Maybe you’re going to getting 0.4, 0.5, 0.6 right now, not too exciting, we’re getting a little bit of interest but it’s a liquid, it’s accessible, this is not the place we’re trying to take a risk with our financial plan, right? We’re going to do that in the savings and investing for the future.

[0:18:05.9] Now, one of the tips that I could share with folks is I think it’s incredibly helpful to get these dollars out of your checking account, right? This really gets to the intentionality of the financial planning.

If we have a bunch of money lumped into our checking account that is for our month-to-month expenses and then we say, “Yeah, I’ve got some of that, that’s earmarked also for an emergency fund,” get it out of the checking account, put it in a separate savings account. Number one, out of sight, out of mind.

Number two, we’re really going to call that account an emergency fund and that’s going to show us our intentionality towards building that and protecting it and getting that out of our month-to-month checking account where we’re either doing our expenses or that we have tied to a credit card where those expenses are charged, so that’s number three.

[0:18:44.0]: Number four is not protecting your income and this obviously gets to a whole laundry list of types of insurance we need to be thinking about including health, home, auto, renters, and so forth, professional liability.

The two that I just wanted to touch on briefly here are term life and long-term disability, and one of the things I often share with pharmacists is “Hey if you are going to do the hard work to really figure out how we’re going to manage just a $170,000 student loan debt if you are going to do the hard work to build a nest egg and a retirement portfolio, we’ve also got to invest some time to make sure we’re playing defense so we are preventing the catastrophic from disrupting that progress in our financial plan. “

When it comes to insurance, the balance point here is we want to not be underinsured, right? We want to make sure we can protect the time but we also don’t want to be over-insured, which is something we often see folks might be in a position of a policy that has been sold to them that is not necessarily coverage that they need or that is in their best interest.

When we are talking about term life insurance what we are talking about here is insurance that would be able to replace your income and what that income provides in the event that you were unexpectedly passed away, right? We’re big advocates of term life insurance. Other types of life insurance out there are whole life, permanent, value types of policies not to say that those don’t have a place anywhere but for the vast majority of folks that we talk with, a coverage with a term life insurance policy might be a 20 or 30-year term.

A million, two million dollars, it really depends on your personal situation but that is going to allow for an affordable monthly payment that is a fixed monthly payment that is going to then allow us to free up dollars to be able to put towards other parts of the financial plan.

[0:20:24.9] In terms of a term life insurance by definition, let’s say somebody buys a 30-year term policy for a million dollars and they’re 30 years old, they are going to pay a monthly or annual premium, depending on how the policy is set that is a fixed monthly payment over that policy length, so it will be a 30-year policy in this case. From 30 to 60 years old in that situation, they would pay a monthly or annual premium.

Now, if they were to die unexpectedly at some point, so let’s say at the age of 50 that person passes away, well at that point their beneficiary would receive the money that’s known as the death benefit and that would be a tax-free policy that would be paid out to the beneficiary. Now, if they don’t die in that 30 year period, which is a good thing that’s the goal, a term life insurance policy, you’re paying those premiums on but you are not going to get those dollars back, right?

If we get to 60, we’ve made it, we are still alive at that point, the policy ends and we are not going to recoup any of those dollars. We are really preventing things on the catastrophic side. We are not looking at this as an investment vehicle. Now, on the disability side, what we are talking about here is really trying to address a scenario where what if you are unable to work as a pharmacist because of a disability?

Car accident, chronic illness, whatever it may be, and obviously at that point, you are disabled and so you are unable to work, in that case, your expenses still live on but your income now here is in jeopardy. A long-term disability policy is the one that we’re often referring to here, again, monthly or annual premium, typically a percentage of your salary that you are going to purchase a policy for.

It could be a five-year, 10-year, 20-year policy up to the age of 65 so it depends on the type of policy, lots of nuances here to think about and then if you were to become disabled, there is going to be known what’s an elimination period, which is the time period between when the disability happens and when your policy kicks in and you have to self-fund that period. It might be 30 to 180 days depending on the policy and then after that point, your monthly policy kicks in to help replace your income.

[0:22:16.8] This is one of the areas we see pharmacists often overlooking and both with term and long-term disability, you may have some base coverage that is provided by your employer. It works a little bit different on the tax side of things of how that benefit is taxed or not taxed depending on where the policy lies and how the premiums are paid and really the question here is, what additional coverage might we need beyond what we have offered through our employer?

If you go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/insurance, we’ve got two additional resources pages on term life and long-term disability where you can learn more about those and see where that fits in with your financial plan. So that is number four, not protecting your income.

[0:22:57.1] Number five is accepting that your income is fixed. Now, many pharmacists graduated in 2008. If you look at the average of pharmacists in 2008 versus what it is here in 2022, if you factor in inflation, not a whole lot has changed, right? Pharmacists tend to make a great income coming out of the gates but depending on the area of practice that they are in, that income may be relatively flat throughout their career.

All the while our expenses are going up and we also see debt loads continue to creep up through that time period. One of the things we want to be thinking about here is how can we potentially maximize our income, right? This would be a benefit to both diversify your income, so I talk with many pharmacists that might let’s say, full-time at a community pharmacy pick up some PRN hours at a hospital pharmacy so they have their foot in the door at a couple of locations.

Again, additional income but also to diversify, pharmacists that are working on side hustles and doing some medical writing or other businesses to generate additional revenue, also areas of interest. And so this could help us diversify but also can help us accelerate our financial goals, so lots to think about here and this really is very much an individualized decision and we’ve got a great resource available, 14 Extra Ways That Pharmacists Can Consider Making Additional Income. That is a blog that we have in the YFP blog, we’ll link to that in the show notes with this episode.

[0:24:19.5] Number six is delaying retirement savings. Now, many of us have been told by parents, grandparents, perhaps multiple people that you need to be saving as early and often as you can, right? Time value of money, compound interest, as Albert Einstein said, it is the eighth wonder of the world and so what we’ve been told, what we’ve been taught is the longer we delay our savings, the harder it is going to be to catch up.

I want to put some numbers to this because I think sometimes we hear that, were like, “Yeah, yeah, easier said than done. You don’t have $170,000 in student loan debt, you aren’t trying to purchase a home and doing all of these other financial goals at the same time” but the math here is really compelling.

If we look at a pharmacist who is making about the average salary of a pharmacist that’s out there if we assume they are putting away about 15% of their income and they are getting an average annual rate of return on their portfolio around 6%. So if you look at the historical rate of return of the stock market around 10% net of inflation closer to 7% and so if they are putting away 15% of their income and they have a desired retirement age of 60, what we see is by putting away about 15% of their income each and every year, if they start at the age of 25, when they get to the age of 60, they’re going to have about 2.6 million dollars saved.

Now, if they wait to the age of 30, that 2.6 turns into about 1.8. If they wait to the age of 35, that 2.6 that could have been if we started at 25 turns into 1.2 and if we wait to the age of 40, that 2.6 turns into $800,000. So that value, that advice is real, right? The earlier we invest and save, obviously we are going to have more time for that money to grow and to do its thing in terms of compound interest throughout many, many years.

Again, we’re just talking about one factor here in a vacuum as we talk about delaying retirement savings. We of course have to zoom out and consider this with other financial goals that we’re working on but ultimately, as we are able to do. We want to be focusing on starting as early as we possibly can.

[0:26:17.9] Number seven here is prioritizing non-tax favored investment accounts. Now, we talked in episodes 72 through 75, we did a series on kind of an investing 101 series meant to be a crash course for those that are wanting to learn more about investing in terminology, some of the biases associated with investing, some of the information on fees, types of accounts, 401(k)s, IRAs, et cetera and so that is a great primer if you want to go back and listen to episode 72 through 75.

What I am referring to here is investing potentially out of order. Now, this is certainly not investment advice, right? We don’t know anything about your personal situation but there is some low-hanging fruit from a tax advantage investing standpoint, right? When you think about 401(k), 403(b), employer-sponsored retirement accounts especially when we think about employer match, free money, right? We have all been told that before.

If we keep working down there, we think about things like health savings accounts, triple tax benefits. We have talked about that on the show before, Roth IRA accounts. Again, another account where we might be putting dollars in that have already been taxed but they’re going to grow tax-free, we pull them out without a future tax burden, so if we are contributing to let’s say a brokerage account, whether it is through a tool like Robin Hood or Acorns or Betterment or whatever be the app or tool. But we are not yet taking advantage of some of those other things, the question we want to ask ourselves is, are we investing in a way that’s going to allow us to maximize our tax savings, right?

Are we investing in appropriate priority? There certainly is I think a place and a role for a brokerage or taxable account but let’s be thinking about the order in which we are doing that relative to employer retirement accounts, IRAs, HSAs, and so forth.

[0:28:02.1] Number eight here is tax filing without tax planning and strategy. Now, we’ve been hitting on this in the show in the last three to six months, shout out to the team at YFP Taxes doing a great job servicing the clients of YFP planning as well as some new clients here in 2022 and what I am referring to here is someone who is doing tax preparation but is not thinking more strategically on the tax planning side.

So, if we look at a pharmacist on average, if they are making an average income working 40 years or so, and if we adjust up that salary for inflation of pharmacists throughout their career as going to earn about $9 million in their career. But only about six million of that depending on their tax situation is going to hit their bank account, so that delta of $3 million is what we want to be thinking about to pay our fair share, right? But we want to optimize how we can be able to use dollars elsewhere if we can allocate those towards a financial plan.

Tax preparation, that’s what we are all doing, we’re required to do it, right? If we don’t file our taxes by April 15, the IRS is going to be coming knocking on our door unless we file for an extension. Tax preparation is historical. It is looking backward, so it limits the impact that we can truly have on our tax liability because things have been done at that point in time, so it is mechanical, we have to file, it’s looking back.

Where tax planning is more of the forward-focus strategic part of integrating the tax plan with the financial plan. Here is where we can avoid common issues in advance, right? We can look at how we can adjust withholdings, do some projections, how can we optimize our savings accounts, how might we look at our savings and philanthropic contributions to be able to optimize those as well.

Lots of things to consider, there’s optimization strategies around long term savings accounts HSAs, 529s, we know there is tax saving strategies with PSLF, lots of child-related optimization strategies, child care credits, dependent care FSAs, maximizing charitable contributions, you know really the list goes on, right? If we are able to do more of that planning and strategy work and look ahead, then we’re obviously able to take advantage of those, so that when we do the filing, we know we have optimized the situation throughout the year.

I would reference folks to episode 233, where our director of tax, Paul Eikenberg and I talked about some tax moves to consider from an optimization standpoint and we’ll link to that in the show notes.

[0:30:27.2] Number nine here is saving for kids college out of order. Guilty as charged, right? I found myself in this trap and as I reflect on that, I think about, “Well, why was that the case?” right? I knew about tax advantage, retirement vehicles, I knew that I have been given the advice over and over again that you can borrow for college, you can borrow for your kid’s college, but you can’t borrow for your retirement, so why was I not focused on the correct order of that?

The more I thought about that, was that it was my reaction to my own journey of not wanting to see my kids incur a couple hundred thousand dollars of student loan debt, right? I think for many pharmacists, that may be the same thing where they are going through their own journey, they are living through that, obviously, the pain of it may be right in front of them right now. And therefore, they might be looking at saving in a 529 account with good intentions, but are we doing that in the right order, right?

This is a great example of where we don’t want to look at one part of the financial plan and the silo because if we just answer the question, saving for kid’s college in a 529, is that a good financial move? Sure, there is tax benefits in doing that especially if we look at the potential growth over 10, 15, or 20 years. If we zoom out and look at what else we’re doing to financial plan that may or may not be the move to make at that time.

We talked on episode 211, the ins and outs of the 529 college savings plans and we’ll link to that in the show notes for more information.

[0:31:51.5] Finally number 10, hiring a planner that does not have your best interest in mind. Now full disclaimer of the bias of the planning services that are offered by YFP Planning, we wholeheartedly believe in fee-only financial planning and we’ll talk about that here in the moment. Obviously, I have a bias towards the services that the team at YFP planning offers, so we need to keep that in mind as we talk about this tenth point.

Now, we talked on episodes 15, 16, and 17 way back when we did a three-part series on working with a planner, what to look for, questions to ask and we also talked about why fee-only financial planning matters. When you think about working with a financial planner here, is the term financial planner or adviser in it itself does not necessarily mean something that we can hang our hat on, right?

We, in the pharmacy world, we’re used to the PharmD board certifications and residencies. We know exactly what those credentials mean and there is a relative amount of consistency in those credentials, so that when someone says, “I completed a PGY-1 residency.” We know what that means.

When it comes to financial planning, financial advisors, wealth managers, wealth advisers, there are a wide variety in terms of education, training, and experience. And what those services look like that will inform and help inform whether or not those may be a good fit for you. So we need to be looking at, what is the educational background of these individuals, what is the credential, how are these individuals regulated?

We firmly believe in the certified financial planner credential, we’ve got five CFPs on the YFP planning team. The CFP is certainly not a credential that is required to do financial planning but very robust in terms of the requirements of the educational portion of the CFP or rigorous examination to pass as well as an experiential component that we would think of as like appys in terms of pharmacy education.

[0:33:42.7] Other things to consider here, I have mentioned the term fee-only, so fee-only by definition is that you are paying the planner and the planning team for the advice that they are giving, so they are not getting paid by recommending products such as insurance or investments where they’d be on a commission, and obviously a potential bias on that recommendation. And then we also really encourage folks to look at whether we are or are not the solution that is the best fit, someone who really offers comprehensive financial planning.

The reason that’s important is that historically, the industry has focused a lot on investments and insurance, you know, think of folks that might be a little bit further along in their career, they have a substantial amount of assets to manage. And so, often there may be a minimum of assets to work with a firm, but when it comes to other things that might be of significance like student loan debt, like some of the early insurance discussions.

Like, “Hey, I am thinking about starting a business or a side hustle” or “I’m looking at purchasing a home or investing in real estate” or “What about the estate plan?” or “What about the tax part of the financial plan?” Making sure the adviser regardless of the stage that you are in of your career, making sure the adviser and the advising team has the expertise and the experience to be able to serve you and the needs that you have for your financial plan.

When it comes to working with YFP Planning, we’re really proud of the work that the planning team does. I mentioned five CFPs, shoutout to our lead planners, Robert Lopez and Kelly Reddy-Heffner who lead those two teams, working with Robert is Kim CFP and Savannah, working with Kelly is Christina, CFP, and Sarah. And then we also have a tax team that supports the financial planning.

We are currently working with about 250 households and over 40 states all across the country, very robust in terms of the comprehensive nature of the plan. For folks that are interested in learning more about that service and what it would look like in terms of working one-on-one with a YFP certified financial planner, you can visit, yfpplanning.com, and you can book a free discovery call with Justin Woods, also a pharmacist who is our director of business development.

[0:35:40.8] Well, that’s 10 common financial mistakes that we see pharmacists making. I really appreciate you joining me on this week’s episode and we’ll see you here again next week.

[END OF DISCUSSION]

[0:35:48.4] TU: Before we wrap up today’s episode of Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, I want to again thank our sponsor, The American Pharmacist Association. APHA is every pharmacist’s ally advocating on your behalf for better working conditions, fair PBM practices and more opportunities for pharmacists to provide care.

Make sure to join a bolder APHA to gain premier access to financial educational resources and to receive discounts on YFP products and services. You can join APHA at a 25% discount by visiting pharmacist.com/join and using the coupon code, “YFP”. Again, that’s pharmacist.com/join and using the coupon code “YFP”.

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:36:28.5] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information of the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analysis expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 212: Checklist for Building a Strong Financial Foundation

Posted on July 15, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

Checklist for Building a Strong Financial Foundation

On this episode, sponsored by CommonBond, Tim Ulbrich shares his checklist for building a strong financial foundation.

Summary

Tim Ulbrich shares insight from one of his most popular talks for pharmacy students and recent pharmacy graduates, Preparing to Be Financially Fit. In this episode, he walks the listener through his checklist of five items and actions necessary for a solid financial foundation.

Develop and automate a monthly system: Not only is it a good idea to create a vision for success with tangible goals and a budget for each month, but it is also equally important to automate when possible to get out of your way when it comes to saving, investing, and planning.
Knock out the baby steps: Work to eliminate high-interest credit card debt and build your emergency fund.
Have a student loan repayment plan: Inventory your student loans and determine your starting point. Work on a strategy to pay loans down. Your repayment options may include tuition reimbursement or repayment, loan forgiveness, or refinancing.
Prepare for the catastrophic: This checklist item is referring to various types of insurance. Pharmacists should plan for potentially catastrophic events by ensuring that you are aptly insured both professionally and personally.
Develop a plan for long-term investing: Lastly, a long-term investing plan is key to your financial independence and freedom however that may look for YOU.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, everyone. Tim Ulbrich here, and I’m flying solo this week as we talk about a checklist for building a strong financial foundation. Now, we’re a little bit over the halfway point through the year, and perhaps if you were like me for this year, you set some big, audacious goals, hopefully some of those financial goals, at the beginning of this year in December or January. And here we are, and maybe those goals have fallen by the wayside or we’ve forgotten about them. And this is a great time of year to bring those goals back, dust them off, and see where we’re at and adjust and see what we need to make for the second half of the year. And that’s what we’re going to talk about today when we talk about a checklist for building a strong financial foundation. My hope is that whether you’re listening and you’re someone who’s got $300,000 in student loan and feel like you’re spinning your wheels with trying to figure that out among other goals or whether you’re listening and you’re someone who’s got a net worth of $1 million or more, my hope is that everyone can take at least one or two things away from this episode.

You know, it dawned on me that one of the most common talks that I give to a group of pharmacists or pharmacy students or residents is preparing to be financially fit. And in that talk, I talk about five things that I believe make up a strong financial foundation. And the way I describe that financial foundation is if we think about our financial plan as if we’re building a home, right, before we can talk about or even think about the upgrades or the remodel of the kitchen or finishing the basement or adding on that patio or deck or even upgrading our landscaping or lighting, we’ve better make sure we’ve got good foundation in place from which we can then grow and make some of those decisions. And the same is true with our financial plan. And so sometimes, we’ve got to go back to the basics no matter where we are at our financial journey and make sure that we’ve got a good, solid foundation in place, one that doesn’t have any cracks or if we identify cracks, we fill some of those cracks in so that we can build and walk confidently in our financial plan, knowing that we’ve done the hard work to put that foundation in place. And one of my key takeaways and hopes for this episode is that we can all recognize that building wealth, achieving financial independence, living a rich life, whatever we want to call it, is really dependent upon having a good, solid foundation in place. So I’m going to walk through five areas that I believe make up this foundation, a checklist for building that foundation and within each one of these, I’m going to provide some additional resources and more information that you can dig deeper on any one of these topics.

Alright, so let’s jump in. No. 1 is Developing and Automating a Monthly System. Developing and automating a monthly system. Now what I’m talking about here — and you probably figured this out — what I’m talking about here is a budget, right, is a system, is a playbook that we can follow each and every month. And then we automate that system and really get ourselves out of the way so we can ensure we achieve our goals. I often don’t lead with the term “budgeting” because it’s not flashy, it’s not exciting, but it’s so foundational to the financial plan, no matter what budgeting method or process that you use.

So in this first step of developing an automated monthly system, you know, a few things that we need to think about. No. 1 is we’ve got to have a vision. We have to know where we want to go before we can take some steps forward. So before we get into the weeds of what budget system or template or method or tool or app, we’ve got to know where we’re going, right? We’ve got to take a look up and see what’s the vision? What’s the path? What’s the guiding light for our financial plan and the decisions that we’re going to make and ultimately the goals that we want to achieve? And we do this by asking ourselves some big, yet important questions, questions like what does financial success look like for you? For you individually, what does financial success look like? How would you define that? You know, why do you care about this topic of money to begin with, right? Money is simply a tool. So why don’t we care about this topic of money. Or perhaps another question may be one that I ask to many folks. You know, if you were to fast forward 25 years and look backwards, what would need to happen that you would think to yourself, you know what, well done, really good job with that whole topic of personal finances? You know, we believe at YFP Planning that really good financial plan takes care of your future self but allows you to live a rich life today, right? We’ve got to have this balance of the future, we’ve got to be looking ahead. But we also need to be prioritizing the things that are most important to us today. So when we’re talking about developing an automated monthly system, we’ve got to first start with the vision.

You know, next from that vision, we’ve got to set some tangible goals, right? So we’ve got to come away from the clouds, come down from the clouds and that dream and vision we have, and let’s set some tangible goals. You know, what are three or four things that we want to achieve over the next 6 or 12 months such that if we achieve those, we’re on the path towards achieving our long-term vision. So we’ve got to set some tangible goals and the more specific, the better.

Then we’ve got to track our spending, right? We’ve got to look backwards and say, ‘OK, I’ve got this vision. I’ve got these goals. Am I actually spending in a way that’s going to allow me to achieve these goals?’ I always encourage folks to do a 90-day lookback at their spending. This can be humbling. This can be eye-opening at times. Often, we may underestimate our true expenses in any given category. And perhaps for some of you, that’s not the case. But this is a good snapshot, 90 days. We’re not necessarily just looking at one month, which may be an outlier for any reason, but getting a good average over a 90-day period of how we’re spending in any individual category of the budget.

Then once we’ve set the vision, once we have some tangible goals, once we’ve looked back at our spending, now let’s jump into the budget, right? And a good budget I believe is one that we’re really proactively thinking about how we’re going to direct our dollars and how they’re going to be spent and allocated toward the goals we want to achieve. It’s that proactive intention in addition to then tracking the expenses throughout the month. And then finally, we want to implement a system that can automate the process. You know, one of my favorite interviews on the YFP podcast was when I interviewed Dr. Daniel Crosby, who’s the author of “The Behavioral Investor.” And he studies how we think and behave around this whole topic of personal finance. And one of the things he said, which really resonates with me and his research supports, is that we often individually, ourselves and the decisions we make are often some of the biggest barriers that we put in front of our financial plan and achieving the goals that we want to achieve. And so automation, Ramit Sethi does a great job of talking about this in his book, “I Will Teach You to Be Rich.” Ramit Sethi talks about how automation can be one of the most powerful and profitable systems that you can build when it comes to your financial plan, right? So once we’ve done the hard work of setting the vision and we have some tangible goals and we know and can track our spending and we’re then able to set the budget, let’s put on automation, let’s fund our goals first, and let’s feel confident in knowing that we’ve developed a system that’s going to help accelerate our financial plan.

So that’s Step No. 1 here is Developing and Automating a Monthly System as we work towards this checklist for a strong financial foundation. Some resources here I would point you to is we’ve got an Excel budget template at YFP that we’ve developed. Certainly not the only way to do budgeting. At the end of the day, a good budget is one that works for you. But if you’re looking for a place to get started or perhaps to take a new, fresh look at the budgeting system you have, you can go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/budget and download that Excel template. Another resource here I would point you to is Episode 057 of the podcast. We talked about the power of automation in your financial plan. And so that may be another one to visit if you want to learn more about that concept of automation and how to implement that in your own system. So that’s Step No. 1, Developing and Automating Your Monthly System.

Step No. 2 is Knocking Out the Baby Steps. Now, if we think about the foundation as five physical bricks that’s making up a foundation, these five things that we’re talking about, I tend to think of this one, No. 2, Knocking Out the Baby Steps, as if it’s really the foundation of the foundation, if you will. Brick No. 1, right? And so we’re talking about the things here that for some of you that are listening, if you’re thinking, Tim, I just feel overwhelmed with multiple goals that I’m trying to achieve, I don’t know where to start. Perhaps I’ve got six figures of student loan debt. You know, I’ve got decisions that I need to make around some credit card debt. And I want to build an emergency fund or grow my emergency fund. I’m trying to purchase a home or I’ve got expenses for the family. I really want to accelerate my investing plan, and I just don’t know where to start and how to prioritize this. Knocking out the baby steps, this Step No. 2, is really meant to be the first step from which you then build even further. And the two things I’m talking about here are high interest rate credit card debt and emergency fund. So these are the two baby steps that we need to think about as we walk into our financial plan. Now I think these are fairly obvious, two things we’ve talked about on the show before, high interest rate credit card debt, we’re talking about here not any credit card expenses or bills that you pay off each and every month but rather that revolving credit card debt that’s accruing double digit interest, cards that are accruing 15-25% interest. And for obvious reasons related to that interest rate and the impact that that can have on the rest of your financial plan, we’ve got to knock that credit card debt out, that high interest rate consumer debt out as soon as possible. So think of this as really the piece where we need to stop the bleeding, right? We need to stop the bleeding before we can then begin to take some of these other steps forward.

The second part here of the baby steps is the emergency fund. We’ve talked about this before on the show, Episode 026, we actually talked about both of these things of baby stepping into your financial plan. And emergency fund, you know, some general rules of thumb that I think about are 3-6 months worth of expenses, 3-6 months worth of expenses. There’s some determination and of course decision-making in there. Is it 3 months? Is it 6 months? Is it somewhere in between? And that depends on several factors. We’re looking here, in my opinion, at an emergency fund as a place where we’re not necessarily very excited about the growth or the interest or the accrual of that account. This is the place where we want this account to be liquid and accessible, where we can get to this money when an emergency happens without disrupting the rest of our financial plan. So we’re going to be doing our investing elsewhere in the financial plan, right? So we want this to be liquid, we want it to be accessible, perhaps it’s going to earn a little bit of interest, nothing too exciting in the moment based on what rates are at on things like long-term savings accounts and money market accounts and so forth. But the purpose here is really more about the liquidity and the accessibility of this fund. So that’s Step No. 2 here, Knocking Out the Baby Steps, high interest rate credit card debt and the emergency fund.

No. 3, Having a Student Loan Repayment Plan. Now, notice I did not say being debt-free. Right? For some of you, perhaps that is the case. Maybe there’s an aggressive debt repayment. But for others of you, it may be loan forgiveness. And that might be 10-year Public Service Loan Forgiveness. That might be a longer time period of non-Public Service Loan Forgiveness or 20-25 years. This might be a federal plan that’s going to take a little bit longer or, again, could be an aggressive payoff. So it’s about having a plan. You know, so many folks that I talk to — and I felt this very much in my own journey, sometimes it’s about the intentionality of knowing that you’ve evaluated the options that are available to you — here, we’re talking about student loans — that you’ve weighed those options, you’ve considered those in the context of the rest of your financial plan and your goals, and you’ve made a decision and determined a path forward and have a plan for how and when this debt is going to get paid off, whether that debt getting paid off is 10 years from now, whether it’s two years from now, or whether it’s even longer or shorter than either of those. So this group listening knows very well, whether it’s those that are in the weeds of those or just been aware of the conversation around student loan debt and pharmacy education, but we’re facing a significant challenge right now. Today’s graduate is the median indebtedness of a pharmacy graduate right now is $175,000. Ten years ago, that was $100,000. We’ve seen a $75,000 increase in the median indebtedness of a pharmacy graduate over a 10-year period. That is what it is. Right? And if you actually look at that stacked up against what a pharmacist is making as reported by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, you know, pharmacists’ income generally speaking have been relatively flat, right? We’ve seen some rise that you could argue accounts for some cost-of-living adjustments. But really, outside of that, we’re not seeing a significant bump up that would account for anywhere near what we’re seeing in terms of the rise of student loan debt.

And so we’ve got some work to do to put this plan together. And Step No. 1 is we’ve got to inventory our loans. We have to know exactly where we are at today. And I suspect many of you have already done this. This is knowing a list of my federal loans, a list of my private loans if applicable, who’s the loan servicing company, what’s the type of loan, what’s the interest rate on that loan? We’ve got to know everything about these loans so we can then determine what might make the most sense from a repayment option and strategy. And the reason why the inventory is so important is that often the loan type is going to direct, especially as we talk about federal options, is going to direct which repayment options may be available to you. And so sometimes — great example would be Public Service Loan Forgiveness — sometimes there’s some work that we have to do to consolidate those loans to then open up repayment options that allow us to pursue certain paths such as Public Service Loan Forgiveness.

So there are three main buckets — when we talk about student loan repayment, there are three main buckets that we want to be thinking about. And I encourage you to think about them in this order. No. 1 is tuition reimbursement repayment. No. 2 is forgiveness. And No. 3 is just paying them off. And that could be paying them off either staying in the federal system or paying them off by moving those loans with a private company through the process known as refinancing. So when we think about these three options, if I had to go from those that would have the least number of listeners probably pursuing it, it would be probably tuition reimbursement payment, a little bit more would be forgiveness, and probably more would be that third bucket where you’re going to pay them off either through a refinance or through staying in the federal system. That first bucket, tuition reimbursement repayment, is referring to those pharmacists who enter employment situations where typically in exchange for some type of service — so think like military pharmacist types of positions, Indian Health Service and so forth, some VA locations through the Education Debt Reduction program — typically in exchange for some type of service, you’re going to have a portion or maybe in some cases all of your student loan balance that might be forgiven. And more often, we think here of federal programs. There are some situations where there are state-based programs. So for example, here in Ohio, there was a program for a period of time for pharmacists that were working in qualified healthcare clinics that were serving patients that were adversely impacted by the opioid epidemic, so think of pharmacists that might work in like federally qualified health centers, could be charitable pharmacy organizations and so forth. More often than not, though, we’re thinking here about federal programs. But it is worth looking into anything that might apply on the state level. So that’s the first bucket. The second bucket is forgiveness. Now within forgiveness on the federal level, there’s two options: one that is better known, Public Service Loan Forgiveness. We’ve talked about extensively on this show. It’s gotten a lot of national attention, some good, some bad, more bad. But I think that probably hasn’t been necessarily fair to that plan. And then the second option, which is not as well-known, is what we call non-Public Service Loan Forgiveness. And there’s some key differences, three things that I really think about differentiating PSLF and non-PSLF. No. 1 would be who you work for. So with Public Service Loan Forgiveness, you have to work for a qualified employer. Typically this is going to be a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization for most pharmacists. Some also would be a federal agency or organization. So think of pharmacists that are working in a hospital or health system setting, perhaps an academic environment and so forth. So that’s the first main difference between the two is who you work for. So PSLF, you have to work for a qualifying employer. Non-PSLF, it doesn’t matter who you work for. Second thing would be the time period. So with PSLF, it’s 120 payments, does not have to be consecutive, but 120 qualifying payments until you can apply for and receive tax-free forgiveness. So minimum of a 10-year period. With non-PSLF, you’re looking at a 20-25 year timeline. Third main difference is related to the taxes and the forgiveness. So with PSLF, if we cross our t’s and dot our i’s, that’s tax-free forgiveness. And with non-PSLF, it is taxable forgiveness. So let’s say 20 years from now, you go to — you’re at the point of forgiveness for the non-PSLF option with an income-driven repayment plan. Let’s say you make $100,000 in that year and you’ve got $100,000 that’s to be forgiven. And that year, your income would be taxed — or you’d have a taxable amount that would be $200,000, not $100,000 because that $100,000 that’s to be forgiven would be treated as taxable income. So this is referred to in the student loan groups as the tax bomb, right? So something we’ve got to be thinking about, we’ve got to plan for if we’re going to be pursuing this option. To many pharmacists that don’t qualify for PSLF and especially those that have a higher debt load, this is something that may be a viable option. And then the third bucket, as I mentioned, is we’re just going to pay them off. So we’re not going to have someone else reimburse/repay, we’re not going to have forgiveness, we’re just going to pay them off, either in the federal system or moving with a private lender through refinance. Now lots of logistics to think about here if you do refinance, different terms, different rate considerations, companies have differences between them. We’ve got lots of resources available on this at YourFinancialPharmacist.com on refinancing, fixed v. variable rates and so forth. And then not all the benefits and considerations are the same in the federal system as they are in the private. So things like income-driven repayment plan, forbearances, forgiveness upon death or disability, these are things that you want to be thinking about if you’re going to move your loans from the federal into the private system.

So I’m just scratching the surface here as we work through this checklist of a strong financial foundation and we talk about having a student loan repayment plan here in No. 3. I would point you to a great resource that was written by Tim Church, “The Ultimate Guide for Pharmacy Student Loan Repayment,” where it’s a blog post, really more of a mini e-book. He did an awesome job of going through a comprehensive, in-depth look at student loan repayment. And you can access that for free at YourFinancialPharmacist.com/ultimate.

OK, so that’s No. 3, Having a Student Loan Repayment. No. 4 is we have to Prepare for the Catastrophic, perhaps the least exciting part of the plan to be thinking about. So here, we’re talking about insurance, right? And while there’s many types of insurance that we want to be thinking about, of course health, auto, home, renter’s, etc., the ones I’m mainly spending time here on in No. 4 is professional liability, term life, and long-term disability. Now we’ve talked about these on the show before, Episode 155 we talked about the importance of professional liability insurance, what it is, why it’s important, who needs it, what to look for when shopping for a policy. So I’d check that out. We also have a great resource on term life and long-term disability. If you go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com main page and click on “Insurance,” you’ll see that information there. And my encouragement for you in this section as we talk about insurance briefly is please take the time to really understand these policies, as non-exciting as it may be, these are incredibly important. And I think this is an area where it’s easy to either be under- or over-insured. And both of those are things that we want to try to avoid. Right? Of course, under-insured, if we have a need for something like term life insurance or long-term disability and we don’t have that policy, that could perhaps be catastrophic to the financial plan, especially as we’re doing the hard work in the other areas that we’ve already talked about. But the other side of the equation also has a cost associated with it, right? If we have a policy which perhaps is more than we need or is not a best fit for our current needs in our financial plan, then that means those are dollars that are going towards a certain part of the financial plan that perhaps we could allocate elsewhere, whether that be investing or debt repayment or another part of the financial plan. So both are important. And this is an area I talk with pharmacists commonly about. And this is an area where I think that someone like a fee-only financial planner can really help provide objective advice and really be able to point someone in the right direction where they don’t necessarily have a vested interest in terms of how those policies are being sold. So make sure to check out some of the resources here on professional liability, Episode 155, and then term life/long-term disability by going to YourFinancialPharmacist.com, clicking on “Insurance.”

No. 5 here is Developing a Plan for Long-Term Investing. And we have talked extensively on the show about investing, from some of the basics, you know, in terms of what are the different accounts, whether that’s a 401k, a 403b, a Roth IRA, a traditional IRA, HSAs and so forth, and you can find all of that on previous shows. We’ve got more information on the website. We’ve also talked about things like the priority of investing. So you know, if we know we need to save each and every month, well, how do we begin to think about the priority? Right? We’ve got considerations around employer-sponsored retirement accounts, individual accounts, perhaps some other investment opportunities like real estate. And so how do we begin to think about the priority of investing? Very important topic. We’ve also talked about things like fees and how do we keep fees low? And if at the end of the day we’re going to be doing the hard work to save, how do we make sure we’re doing that in a way that is tax-efficient and we’re doing that in a way that is minimizing the fees that might eat away at that investment. So I would encourage you to think about at least the beginnings — remember, we’re talking about the foundation here — the beginnings of your long-term investing plan in three stages. And that is setting the vision, Part 1, then determining what the need is or how much to achieve that vision, that’s Part 2, and then we get into the x’s and o’s in Part 3 of actually determining how much are we going to save every month and where are we going to allocate those funds? And within those funds, how are we going to determine what we’re investing in, which aligns with our goals, which aligns with our risk tolerance and all of the other things that I’ve previously mentioned.

And so this is an area that I think for folks that are really at the beginning of their financial journey or even folks that maybe are listening and you’ve amassed a half a million a million dollars of wealth just through consistent, regular contributions into tax-advantaged retirement accounts but necessarily haven’t dug into the details or thought about how to take that to the next level, right? Both of those could apply. And so my encouragement for both groups and folks that are in between there is to really take a step back and ask yourself, what is the vision for my long-term investing plan? I mentioned at the beginning, money is simply a tool. What’s my vision for retirement? What does that look like? What do I want to do? What do I want to accomplish? Because that’s going to then inform how much do I need? Once I know what the vision, once I know what I want to accomplish, I can then start to determine OK, how much am I going to need to be able to make that a reality? Now, for those of you that have done this step, how much you need, you might have run some numbers in a nest egg calculator, it’s a topic that I often talk about when we’re speaking and sometimes I’ll even have folks that will go through that in real time. And inevitably, anytime we go through a nest egg calculation, you can see kind of that glossed-over look when you punch in the numbers and you hit “Calculate,” and you see that number that’s $3, $4, $5, $6 million. And it becomes number one, very overwhelming and number two, it feels very abstract in the moment. Whether retirement is 20 years away, 10 years away or 40 years away, that can be a big number that it’s hard to say, what does that actually means today? What do I do with that number, right? And so I think a good financial plan will really take that information and distill it down to OK, let’s discount that information back to today’s numbers, what does that mean for how much we need to be saving each and every month, and then let’s begin to put a plan in place and automate that plan so we’re contributing in a tax-efficient manner, we’re keeping the fees low, and we’re allowing compound interest to do its magic and time value of money to take its course. Right? And so we’ve got to bring it into terms that allow us to digest this and make it real or otherwise we’re going to get some of that paralysis analysis, five years goes by, 10 years go by, and we feel like we’re trying to play catch-up on our investing plan.

So as we walk through these five steps, we talked about developing and automating a monthly system, No. 1. We talked about knocking out the baby steps, No. 2. We talked about having a student loan repayment plan, No. 3. Preparing for the catastrophic, No. 4. And then No. 5, developing or perhaps accelerating your long-term investing plan. And for those that are listening, I want you to imagine for a moment, I want you to imagine for a moment that you’ve got a sound monthly system in place that accounts for all of your goals. You’ve thought through the things that are most important to you. You’ve looked at your current expenses. You’ve built in those goals into a monthly system, and you’ve automated the savings to begin to realize those goals. Imagine that just for a moment. I want you to imagine for those that are struggling with ‘I need to really flesh out and build out the emergency fund,’ or ‘I need to knock out that credit card debt,’ what would it feel like if you no longer had any credit card debt? What would it feel like if you had a fully-funded emergency fund? What’s next after that? For those that are thinking about their student loans, right, it’s hard to often look at other things when you’ve got a huge balance of student loans. As I highlighted earlier, yeah, you know, getting that to $0 is a goal, of course. But what would it feel like if you had a plan, knowing that you’ve evaluated all of the options, all of the federal options, forgiveness, non-forgiveness, private, etc., you’ve looked at the numbers, you’ve thought about the other considerations, you’ve determined a path forward that is best for you personal situation, and you’ve determined a plan that now allows you to look at your monthly expenses knowing that you’ve put a plan in place that that repayment option is best for your personal situation and you know exactly what that’s going to cost each and every month to achieve that goal and when you’re going to have that debt paid off? What would it feel like for those that are thinking, you know, ‘Am I underinsured when it comes to things like long-term disability or term life?’ or perhaps folks that are feeling like, ‘You know what, I bought a policy awhile ago that maybe wasn’t a good fit.’ What would it feel like if that got shored up? If we really looked at making sure we’ve got the right amount of insurance, not too much and not too little. And what would it feel like if we had a sound vision for the future of our financial plan in terms of what retirement may look like? And how much we would need to accomplish that goal and what it would take on a month-by-month basis — and of all of the financial lingo of 401k’s and IRAs and HSAs and brokerage accounts and all of these other options that we had a plan and path forward, knowing that we’re saving x per month with this goal, and we’re going to do it in this account with this strategy?

So I think as we think about those, even as I’m reflecting on those in my own personal journey, you know, there’s always work to be done. Right? Whether, as I mentioned at the beginning, whether you’re listening and have a net worth of $1 million or net worth of -$500,000, there’s always work to be done. And while there’s always work to be done, wow, what a different position and mindset to be in when we can operate from a place knowing that we’ve got a strong foundation upon which we can build the rest of our financial plan. And so I’d be remiss here if I didn’t highlight that what we do at YFP Planning, one-on-one comprehensive financial planning, this is it, right? We’re looking at every situation on an individual basis to determine what does this foundation look like for you or for a pharmacist who’s really trying to focus on accelerating the second half of their career, is approaching retirement and wants to really think about more of the distribution phase and what’s involved in that from a tax standpoint. One-on-one financial planning allows us to really dig deep and really evaluate your situation on an individual basis. And so I would encourage folks if that’s something that you’ve been thinking about, you can schedule a free discovery call to determine whether or not what we offer is a good fit for you. You can do that at YFPPlanning.com, you can schedule a discovery call and learn more about what that looks like.

As always, I appreciate you joining for this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. And I think we have an exciting second half of the year ahead. If you’ve liked what you heard on this episode or previous episodes, please do us a favor and leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts each and every week. That’s how more pharmacy professionals can help them to find this show and ultimately help us on our mission of helping as many pharmacists as possible achieve financial freedom. Have a great rest of your day.

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YFP 207: How to Avoid These 6 Common Financial Mistakes

Posted on June 10, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

How to Avoid These 6 Common Financial Mistakes

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, YFP Co-founder and Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, discusses common financial errors ranging from those made with investing, insurance, credit, and more. Whether you are just getting started with your financial plan or looking for a tune-up, this episode will help you avoid the most common financial blunders so you can maximize your financial plan and achieve your financial goals.

Summary

Tim Baker and Tim Ulbrich discuss six common financial mistakes and how to avoid them. While financial mistakes may seem inevitable, Tim and Tim speak from their own experiences with financial errors and share ways to prevent these mistakes from impacting your financial plan and financial goals.

Common financial errors discussed in this episode include:

1. Not taking advantage of employer match

When you don’t take advantage of your employer’s match, you essentially turn down free money. Many people don’t take full advantage of employer matches because they are not auto-enrolled to do so. Getting the maximum amount out of your employer match increases your compound interest over time.

2. No budget or no financial plan

Without a budget or financial plan, it is increasingly difficult to reach your financial goals. The budget is not a one-size-fits-all and should custom fit your personal experience and what works for you.

3. No insurance or inadequate insurance

As a pharmacist with a spouse, house, and mouths to feed, you should be aware of your insurance needs and insured for an event that will require insurance ranging from life, disability, or professional liability insurance.

4. Failure to monitor your credit reports

Tim Baker recommends checking your credit reports twice a year – he pulls his reports with the changing of the clocks for daylight savings. With the increase in the digital nature of personal information, it is critical to monitor your credit for errors and identity theft.

5. Not investing or not having the right attitude when it comes to investing

Being risk-averse may impact your long-term financial plan. Building and maintaining an appropriate asset allocation that matches your goals, risk tolerance, and time horizon while avoiding impulse purchases or hunches is a more intelligent way to positive investment returns.

6. Not utilizing professional advice

Financial professionals know what they are doing, and hiring someone allows you to have more free time to do the things you want to do.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, welcome back to the show.

Tim Baker: Hey, Tim, thanks. Thanks for having me back. It’s been awhile.

Tim Ulbrich: What’s new and exciting from YFP Planning’s perspective?

Tim Baker: It feels like a lot, Tim. I feel like this year is full of change and we’re excited. A lot of things going on in the background. We’ve had our lead planners out in Columbus to do some planning. It was good to kind of meet up and now that people are getting vaccinated, to be able to meet up and do some planning and talk about our goals. And that was exciting to kind of show the new office, which people may or may not know that YFP has bought headquarters in Columbus. And we’re in the process of kind of renovating a little bit and getting that ready for us to move here in — move in here shortly. And that’s been exciting and having to deal with contractors, maybe not as exciting. I think the team has continued to expand. We finish up tax season here, which is always hair on fire, and we had a lot of good help to go through that. But we actually welcomed back a former team member, now current member again, Christina Slavonik, who worked with me a year or so ago and decided to kind of come back into the fold. And we’re super excited to have her as part of the team. And yeah, so lots of changes, but all good things I think.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, certainly excited to have Christina back, what that means for our team. Pumped up about the new office and it’s an open invitation to any of the community that’s in Columbus or finds their way traveling through Columbus, we’d love to host you and have a chance to meet up with you. Please reach out to us. And a shoutout, as you mentioned, Tim, to our tax team. I mean, over 250 returns that we filed this year, lots of wrenches that were thrown their way with extensions and delays in state extensions and legislative pieces that were being passed in the middle of tax season. And I thought they handled it well, and we’re ultimately able to serve the community, and we very much believe tax is an important part of the financial plan. So excited to see that continuing to grow. So today, we’re talking all about common financial errors. And you and I know that financial errors seem inevitable. We’re all human; we all make mistakes. And one of our goals with YFP is to help you, the YFP community, and certainly our clients as well, to avoid as many financial mistakes as possible. And certainly we have lots of resources that are here to help in this, whether it be this podcast, blog posts, checklists, calculators, and certainly our one-on-one comprehensive financial planning services as well. And just to be clear, this is not about shaming by any means. This is about learning and hopefully avoiding a repeat of making the same mistakes. So if you’ve already made some of these mistakes, certainly Tim and I have. We often talk about these between the two of us. We’ll that here again today. So if you’ve made some of these mistakes, certainly this is not about beating yourself up. Take what you’ve learned and certainly apply that information, and hopefully that can help with avoiding future mishaps or help you to spread the word and encourage and teach others along the way as well. So Tim, let’s get to it. We’re going to warm up with what many consider low-hanging fruit. No. 1 financial error/mistake I’m going to list here is not taking advantage of the employer match. So talk to us about the employer match and why not taking advantage of it is a significant financial error.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think this is where often we say, it’s free money. So not often do you ever come across a situation where there’s money to be had, you know, without anything in return. So I think in a lot of cases — and I know there’s some gurus out there that say like if you’re in debt, you shouldn’t even do this, and I would probably disagree with that. I think there are some exceptions if you have lots of high interest like credit card debt, consumer debt, then this might be a situation where you don’t want to get the match. But I would say for the most part, if your employer has a 401k or a 403b match or whatever that is, you want to make sure that you are taking full advantage of that. Most employers are going to have matches that are going to incentivize you to put anywhere between 2-6% to get the full match. There are some that are designed to push you a little bit further. But for the most part, if you’re in that sweet spot of putting in 2-6% of your income into a 401k to get a full match, I would say to do that. The reason that you want to do this is because if you can get that dollar, those dollars deferred and into that retirement account, this all goes back to the concept of time in the market versus time in the market. And really taking advantage of more compounding periods to take advantage of the compound interest. So if you’re out there and you have — you’re looking at your student debt or if you have sizable consumer debt and you’re like, man, I just feel like I put money in and it stays the same, that’s compounding interest kind of taking advantage of you. And what we want to do is flip the script a bit and get that to where your money is making money. So Albert Einstein has said, “Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it, earns it. He who doesn’t, pays it.” So the idea here is that you can get your money to work in the investment world and keep it working and allow those dollars to make baby dollars and they make baby dollars. That’s the idea here. So it’s really about time in the market. We see this as less and less of an issue now that I think it was the Obama administration, you know, has really pushed 401k plans to have an auto-enroll feature. So based on studies on this, if we are the variable that gets in the way, meaning people, that we typically are going to go with whatever is the default. So if the default is not to enroll and you have to actually take steps to do that yourself, we’re not going to do that. If the default is that we’re already auto-enrolled, then that’s what we’re going to do. So a lot of these plans — and Tim, our plan has this — is that after a certain period of time, we auto-enroll participants and we say, “OK, we’re going to auto-enroll them at x%.” For ours right now and for — speaking of the YFP 401k — we auto-enroll at 3%. The maximum match is if they put 4% in. So they would just have to go in and make that determination that they would like to do that. So auto-enroll features on 401k’s have made this a little bit less of a common mistake, but they’re still there, nonetheless, and we still come across more than you would think of those that are not putting in at least to get to the company match. And just to kind of put a bow on this, think of this in this light: You know, if you’re a pharmacist and we use round numbers here — if you’re a pharmacist and you’re making $100,000 and your company offers you a 3% match, think of that — and you’re not taking advantage of that right now, think of this as like a 3% raise where you are making $103,000 because $3,000 of that is going into your company 401k. And it’s surprising, you know, I think if you — dependent on the 401k — and I know we’re going to talk about the fees in an upcoming episode — but dependent on the 401k, it’s surprising how quickly those types of accounts can grow if you are deferring dollars out of your paycheck so you’re hopefully not missing it too much, it invested in the right way, and it’s not being eaten away by fees. It’s surprising how quickly those accounts can grow. This is a big, big miss if you’re not necessarily taking advantage of a match.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff, Tim. And I think just to further highlight time value of money, and I think for those that are listening that are especially getting started on the employer contribution side and perhaps aren’t leaning into that match yet, there is some trust in the momentum in compound interest, right? You can run the calculations, see the numbers, but it does feel like early on that you’re putting money in and you’re not seeing that growth until obviously those funds get to a certain balance and then you start to see the momentum of the growth on the growth. But to take your example, Tim, of somebody making $100,000, 3% employer match, $3,000, I would encourage folks to also think about it’s not just that $3,000. It’s what would that $3,000 be worth in 25 or 30 years? Right? So you know, that $3,000, if that were to grow at let’s say 7% average annual rate of return over 25 years, that $3,000 in 25 years is worth more than $16,000. So time value of money is not just what does it mean in today’s dollars, but what would it also mean in the opportunity cost of not investing those dollars? So that’s No. 1, not taking advantage of the employer match. No. 2 is no budget, no financial plan. Harsh words, Tim Baker. What do you mean by that? And you know, budgeting, spending plan, whatever we want to call it, why is it so critical to the financial plan?

Tim Baker: And some people would disagree with this. But I guess some people, especially if they might lend credence to like, you know, if you’re starting out, if you’re a new practitioner, definitely budget. If you get to a certain inflection point, you don’t need to budget. I would disagree in a sense. If you think about this in terms of like if you think about your household and the salaries you make as like revenue, if you’re a household and you’re making $200,000-250,000 as a household and you equate that to like a business and a business making that revenue, businesses are going to have budgets, they’re going to have projections, they’re going to bucket money for certain — just like we do, Tim, at YFP. You know, we have ‘this is the amount of money we want to spend on marketing, and this is the amount of money that we want to spend here and there.’ Like that’s a budget. And I would say that if you treat your household as a company, like you’re going to earmark those for different purposes. So I think this is a way of how you go about and do that. So I think where budgeting kind of gets a bad rep is the $0-based budget where every dollar has a job and you basically assign a purpose for every dollar that kind of flows through the household. And for some people, that can be super arduous, that can be super over-the-top. But I don’t necessarily think it’s an exercise that doesn’t have merit or value. But I think typically as you go, you find the flavor of ice cream that works for you. So there’s lots of different types of budgets out there. You know, you have the $0-based. I’ve seen a line item budget, I’ve seen a pay yourself first budget. There’s a lot of different ways to go about it. I think at the end of the day, a budget goes back to what is the intention of the resources that you have.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Tim Baker: And applying that to — and by intention, we typically mean like goals. So what are the goals that you have? What are you intentionally trying to achieve with the six figures of income that you’re earning? And how do we go about that? So the budget is typically the structure or the steps to go from ‘Hey, I want to travel,’ or ‘I want to be able to give back,’ or ‘I want to be able to take care of an aging parent.’ The budget is typically the mechanism that allows that to kind of come to be. So I would say that this is typically lockstep with the savings plan. Most financial planners, in my opinion, they’ll say, “OK, your savings plan is your emergency fund, and that’s it. So you need to have $20,000 in your emergency fund as an example or $30,000 in an emergency fund,” and then it stops there. I think it needs to go further. So I think your budget and how you’re spending needs to kind of be in sync with how you’re deliberately saving for different things that are basically on the docket for goals. So — and I wouldn’t even call this a step, Tim. It’s a process. I’m a big Sixers fan, trust the process. Hopefully JoJo is going to come back —

Tim Ulbrich: I was going to say…

Tim Baker: No, but it’s a process. And I think what people do and where they get hung up on budgeting is that it’s more about striving for improvement and not perfection.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that’s right.

Tim Baker: We want everything to be balanced, we want everything to kind of line up. And in most cases, that’s not going to happen. So depending on the budget and what flavor that suits you best is going to really allow you to kind of figure out how it works. So to me, this is really about being more intentional with spending, being more intentional with kind of top-line revenue. So this is not just an effort in kind of an exercise in scarcity of like, hey, this is what the pie is. I want to challenge you to grow the pie. So to me, it’s looking at both sides of that equation and really striving for improvement of what you’re trying to accomplish and not perfection. So I think that if you can kind of wrap your arms around that and not be wed to one way of doing things, then I think you’re going to see improvement. So and there’s lots of different tools out there, technologies, Mint, YNAB, some people use good old-fashioned spreadsheets, some people use envelopes, like physical envelopes to do this. At the end of the day, you know, I think the question you should be asking is, am I intentional with how I’m spending? Am I intentional with how I’m bringing money into the household? And does this align with the goals that I have set out for myself. And if it doesn’t, then I think that’s where you kind of need a little bit of a gut check to make sure that you’re on track.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, intentionality really stands out there to me, Tim, whether someone’s listening and they’ve got a net worth of -$400,000 or a net worth of $4 million. The process may look different, the intensity of the month-to-month might look very different, but at the end of the day, like budgeting, whatever you want to call it, to your point about looking at it from the point of a business, it’s about what are the goals, what are we trying to achieve, and then what’s the plan to make sure that that’s a reality. And the buckets might look bigger or smaller, the process might look more or less intense. But it’s about being intentional with the goals and the plan. For those that are looking for a starting point, a template, a process, you can go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/budget. We do have a spreadsheet that you can get started with, certainly not necessarily the ending point. You can implement technology tools and evolve it from there, but that can be a good starting point. So that’s No. 2, no budget, no financial plan. No. 3 is no or inadequate insurance. I’ve mentioned before, Tim, on this podcast that insurance I think is an often overlooked part of the financial plan for obvious reasons. Thinking about something like a death or a disability or a professional liability claim isn’t necessarily the most exciting thing to think about when it comes to financial planning, especially when we can think about things like investing or saving for the future or getting rid of that student loan debt. So tell us here about what you see as some of the common pitfalls around inadequate insurance coverage.

Tim Baker: I think what a lot of people default to, a lot of pharmacists default to, is that what their employer provides as part of their compensation package is the plan for their insurance. And it’s not. It’s typically — we view it as a benefit that should be taken into consideration as we’re building out an insurance plan for your financial plan. And we’re really talking about the protection here, so like what we talk about with our YFP planning clients is how are we helping them growing and protecting — so protecting being the operative word in this step — their income and growing and protecting their net worth while keeping their goals in mind? So protection here is what we’re talking about. And typically, you know, what we focus on is things like life, disability, and professional liability. So your employer might provide you different coverages based on the employer. And that’s going to mean different things to different people, depending on their life situation. But oftentimes with pharmacists, you need to take more action in this or you run the risk of exposing yourself to a loss that could potentially be catastrophic. So you know, health insurance — so I would say that the one thing that is a plan and not necessarily a perk is health insurance. So health insurance, you’re typically best to go with the group policy, although that could change in the future. That could change where the way that employer compensation packages are designed in our country is that if the government isn’t providing that, it’s health insurance the employer does. That could change in the future, and we’ve seen that with things like pensions and 401k’s where pensions have gone away and they’ve been more robust, and a lot of it put the onus back on the employee for saving for retirement. So that could change in the future. But if we break down the insurance piece, a big miss is if we say not having adequate insurance is knowing what to have, knowing what you think that you need from particularly a life and disability insurance policy. You know, I typically say with regard to life insurance — and another piece of the protection of the financial plan is estate insurance — is that typically when you have a spouse, a house, and mouths to feed, those are typically going to be the opportunities to make sure that you are protected from a life insurance perspective and from an estate planning perspective. So more often than not, pharmacists are going to need a lot more of a benefit than what their employer can provide. So that’s typically where you want to go out into the individual policy world and make sure that you are fully protected. That’s one of the problems in the financial services industry too is like we come across a lot of pharmacists, Tim, that they might be 27 or 28 and they’ve been sold a crappy insurance policy, life insurance policy, that they don’t need, right? Because they don’t have a mortgage, they don’t have other dependents relying on them, their loans are going to be forgiven upon death or disability, so it’s just a policy that they probably don’t need right now. So it’s kind of like you have a hammer and you see a nail and it was a good cookie-cutter solution for everyone. One of the mistakes here is not understanding the need. So like we’ll have clients that will come in that will have young kids and things like insurance are not even brought up. And I look at that and I’m like, that’s a big risk. Like the student loans are important, and you’re talking about real estate investing and some other things, but like we probably need to address this first. So — and it’s typical, right? We don’t want to — we typically think that it’s not going to happen to us, a premature death or disability. So it’s very natural. So that’s part of the planner’s job is to kind of bring that to the forefront and make the proper recommendations. The other thing we’ve been talking about is disability insurance. So these are typically more likely to happen and typically more expensive because you typically have medical bills that are going to pile up as a result of a disability. So having the proper insurance there, whether that is through your employer or your own policy or buying a supplemental policy to kind of make you not whole but make you to — indemnify you to a certain threshold that you feel like you can continue the household, that’s a big thing. And a lot of these policies, the way that they’re written don’t provide a lot of protection. So it’s really looking at does it make sense to add a policy for yourself? So the idea here is that the sooner, the better. Whether it’s life, disability, the younger that you can get these policies in place, typically the better from a cost perspective. A lot of the policies that you have through your employer, the group policies, they’re not portable. Or if they are, they’re not great compared to the individual policies. So I think if you can have these separate from the employer, it makes a lot of sense with regard to protecting your financial plan.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think you’ve covered a lot here, and there’s just a lot to think through. And we’ve only talked through very briefly three different areas. You mentioned professional liability, life, disability. But questions of like, what do you need? What do you not need? Based on what you do need, how do you shop for those, looking for policies that — and getting advice that really has your best interests in mind to make sure you’re not underinsured or overinsured? What does your employer offer? What do they not offer? What’s the gap? What are the tax implications? So important part of the plan. I think our planning team does an awesome job of weaving this in and for folks to consider, are they underinsured? Do they have adequate insurance or not? And how does that fit in with the rest of their financial goals and plans? So that’s No. 3, no or inadequate insurance. No. 4, Tim, failure to monitor credit reports. Wow. When I think of checking a credit report, I think of boring, No. 1. No. 2 is necessary, right? So you know, why is this such an important step? How often should one be doing it? And why do they need to monitor credit reports over time?

Tim Baker: Yeah, and I would definitely chalk this up to like to stage of life. So you know, if you’re more Gen X or Baby Boomer, this might not be as important because you might not be making the big decisions, although you could be sending kids to college, there might be some loans that you’re taking out. But I would say that if you’re — a lot of the clients that we work with, you know, especially as they’re starting their careers, there’s a lot of decisions that are being made that credit granting is on the table. So that’s like home purchase, car purchase, things like that. Naturally, because of age of credit, your credit is going to become stronger and stronger as you go because that’s the way that the factors that kind of go into your credit score, age of credit is a big one. But I think the big thing that is kind of universal here that is becoming more and more of a thing is just the identity theft stuff. So as our lives become more and more digital and there’s more exposure to theft, it’s kind of this cat-and-mouse game. It’s not really a question of if, it’s really when. Having kind of eyes on this is really important. So I like to typically recommend that we check credit at least twice per year. So I kind of do it when the clocks change, so when we spring forward and fall back. I myself have gone through this exercise. I’ve found large enough mistakes on my credit report that drastically changed my credit score. And this is even — like when I first started advising clients on credit, this was before the days of like banks learning kind of suspicious behavior. A lot of these banks, a lot of these institutions, they’ve come a long way to alert you and kind of give you some structural things to look at, you know, if you have expenses that are out-of-state or whatever. Even in that environment, there were some things that were from my credit report that should not have been there, that drastically changed my score. So typically, you see differences in scores because you have different formulas that every Equifax, Experian, Transunion are using to calculate your score. Different creditors are going to report differently. So if you buy a Toyota, they might be really good about reporting to Equifax but not Transunion for some reason. Or Mastercard is really good, but this other company isn’t. So you’re going to have different inputs. And really, that’s going to be the big factor that will see why your scores are different. But I think the big thing for all those that are out there listening to this is going to just be from an identity theft. And I’ve looked at client credit reports, and I’ve made comments about hey, these are things that we can do to improve this or these are different factors to consider, but I can’t look at a credit report and know that hey, this doesn’t belong there. So it’s really kind of home cooking that is really important here. So the Fact Act that was enacted I think in 2003 allows you to access your credit report for free one time per year from each of the three reporting agencies for free. So you go to annualcreditreport.com. It sounds fake, it sounds kind of hokey, but that’s the way to — the site that you want to go to is annualcreditreport.com, and pull your credit score from each of the reporting agencies. I would just kind of rotate them through and take a glance at it, see if there’s anything fishy or — and then you can always dispute things that are inaccurate, and it’s pretty easy to do that on the website there. So that would be a big thing that I would make sure that you want to build into your practice.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I think to your point, this is a good maintenance part of the financial plan, right? It’s like periodic oil changes, like we’ve got to be doing this. I like your rhythm of when the clocks change, twice per year, again, annualcreditreport.com. We talk about tax being a thread of the financial plan, credit is a financial — is a thread of the financial plan, impacts so many different areas, whether that would be home buying, real estate investing, business purchases, you mentioned identity theft, so something we’ve got to stay on top of. We did an episode, Episode 162, where we talked all about credit, importance of credit, improving your credit, understanding your credit score, credit security practices, so I’d encourage you to check that out. Again, Episode 162. Tim, No. 5 here on our list of common financial errors is not investing or improper attitude towards investing. Now, I think we’ve talked a little bit about not investing when we talked about not taking advantage of the employer match. So obviously time value of money, compound interest, we’ve got to be in the market. Talk to us more about the improper attitude towards investing. What do you mean there?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think there’s like two extremes here when I would say that typically doesn’t necessarily align, which I think with what I think is a healthy investment portfolio. So one is not wanting to dip your toes into the market. So I kind of hear like, ‘Oh, I don’t want to take risks. I don’t want to lose any money.’ And I think for us to kind of stay in front of things like the inflation monster, like taxes, you can’t just stuff your mattress full of dollars and hope to one day be able to retire comfortably. You know, so it’s kind of like if you want to make an omelet, you’ve got to crack some eggs. So the idea here is that we need to build out a portfolio that takes risk intelligently but that is over the course of your career in line with what you’re trying to achieve. And most people, you know, if you’re in your 20s, 30s, 40s, and maybe even 50s, they typically are more heavily weighted in bonds than they need to be, in my opinion. So you know, a lot of people when the market crashed at the beginning of the pandemic, they’re like, oh my goodness, Tim, like I want to take my investment ball and go home, meaning like I want to get out of this investment. And the idea is no, like let’s keep going. Either let’s put more money in or let’s hold the course. So you want to do exactly what the opposite of how you feel. So you know, the big drivers in your ability to build wealth over time from an investment perspective is that you have the appropriate asset allocation, so the mix between stocks and bonds, and really driving your fees as low as possible with regard to the investments. In a lot of cases, when we look at our clients, there’s a lot of opportunity for improvement there. And one of the things we talk about in webinars and even in our presentation with clients is that you look at all the variables in investing, and we have conservative — we talk about Conservative Jane. So Conservative Jane makes $120,000, she gets 3% cost of living raises, she works for 30 years, but she doesn’t invest the dollars. She basically keeps them in cash or like a Money Market. At the end of that time period, she has $600,000. But then we look at Aggressive Jane, who does the exact same thing except the only thing that she changes — and I think the big thing is she puts 10% into her 401k — the only thing that Aggressive Jane does differently than Conservative Jane is that she trusts the market in the long run. So the market returns about 10% year over year, and we adjust it down for inflation to about 6.87%. And Aggressive Jane is not saving harder, she’s not working longer, she’s not making more money, she’s just trusting in the market over that amount of time, and the swing is about — I think it’s $1.2 million. So Aggressive Jane at the end of those 30 years will have $1.8 million. So that’s very impactful if you can internalize that and bake that into your investment strategy is really trust the market. Over long periods of time, it’s very predictable. The only other thing I think I’ll say about this is the other side of that is that people have maybe unrealistic expectations of their investments. So they think that if they invest a certain way for four or five years that they’re going to have this portfolio that it can live off the interest. That’s not the case, you know. And I think that there is a lot of speculation and things like that where you’re heavily invested maybe in crypto or these certain stock that can get you into trouble. And I typically say that it’s not that there’s no room for that, it’s that the overwhelming majority of your investments should be super boring and bland and not exciting at all. And typically the more exciting that the investments are, the worse it is for you, the investor. Keep that in mind as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, I would argue — and you probably see this with clients and our planning team does as well — I’m not sure there’s a harder time than right now to trust the market over a long period of time and stay the course. You know, you mentioned that a good long-term investing plan — I’ve heard you say before — should be as boring as watching paint dry, right?

Tim Baker: Mhmm.

Tim Ulbrich: And I have that head knowledge, like I agree with that and I suspect many of our listeners do as well, but pick up any news cycle for 24 hours, right? I mean, whether it’s — and I’m not saying any one of these alone, to your point, is necessarily a bad thing or that folks shouldn’t be doing them — but whether it’s news around crypto or NFTs or ESGs or think of what happened with GameStop and Robinhood and others, like and I think it really challenges like the philosophy and you really have to be disciplined in like tuning out the noise for long-term investing strategies. Now again, I want to highlight, I’m not saying any of those things doesn’t necessarily have value or doesn’t have a place in one’s plan, but if the vast majority of an investing plan should be boring and should be over a long period of time, we’re trusting the market, it’s hard right now. I mean, it’s hard. Are you feeling that pressure not only individually but I sense from clients you’re probably seeing some of that as well.

Tim Baker: I kind of don’t listen to it. I don’t really read much — I mean, I try to read into it just to have an understanding of what’s going on, but I guess for me, I don’t feel the pull like I used to back in the day. One, because it’s a very humbling experience, and sometimes my clients haven’t been humbled. But like I kind of equate this, Tim, to kind of go a little bit off topic here, it’s like have you ever been around someone that’s like, man, the world is going to heck, this generation, whatever. And I think back on like well, what did they say about like the hippie, like free love? I feel like it’s always — like they probably were saying that about the dot-coms when before that, so there’s probably always been things like that that have tempted people to kind of go awry. And maybe cryptocurrency is a thing that does ultimately shatter our traditional way of looking at money and investments and things like that. I don’t know. I mean, I think that it’s really too soon to tell on that. But yeah, I mean, I think so. I mean, I think it is tough. I think if you’ve been humbled enough, it can be a little bit easier to drown it out. But to me, I think of this as like singles and doubles, singles and doubles, to use the baseball analogy is that if you’re going up at every at-bat and you’re trying to hit the cover off the ball, you’re going to strike out a lot. And you might hit a few home runs, but we’re really looking at consistency. And if I know that there is this — the S&P 500 returns this, and it’s never been, we’ve never had a rolling 20-year period that’s been negative, even through the Great Depression, I’m going to bank on that unless told otherwise. So like, that can be hard for people to hear because they think of investments and they think sexy and exciting and things like that, but that’s not what I think a healthy investment plan makes. I think you want to keep the speculation low. And I’m not saying that that’s not — I still from time to time will go to a casino and play Blackjack or play poker. I still gamble just because I don’t do it as much as I did when I was younger, but just because I’m out and I’m with friends or I’m doing whatever. But if that’s the bulk of what your plan is to get to financial freedom, so to speak, I would caution you.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: And it could work. I mean, it could work. You could put all your proverbial eggs in the Amazon bucket and be completely OK, but you know, the way that people view Amazon — maybe not now but you know, 5-10 years ago, was very similar to how they viewed Sears back in the ‘70s, ‘80s, and ‘90s.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Tim Baker: And that company was this behemoth and they sold everything and would never go away. And then all of a sudden, it’s not a viable company anymore. So — and I can say this, I used to work for Sears back in the day, so I can say that not everything lasts. But I think that the U.S. stock market has been very predictable over the long run.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s a great example, Tim. We might be dating ourselves a little bit, but you think of — I can remember when it was the lesser known at the time Walmart and Amazon entering into the KMart and Sears world. It’s hard to even think of that in today’s day and age. I think your point about being humbled is a really interesting one. You know, we’re talking about common financial errors. So I’ll throw one out here. 2008, I was humbled by thinking I could pick individual stocks. Thankfully, I didn’t invest a whole lot of money. Circuit City, how did that work out? Right? So you know, I think your point about being humbled and again, there may be a portion of the portfolio where this makes sense for many folks, especially if they want to scratch that itch. The other thing you mentioned here, which I want to highlight we’re going to come back to next week is you mentioned fees. And we’re going to talk next week about how important it is to really understand the fees of your investment portfolio and really understand the impact that those fees can be having on your long-term returns and the importance of holding on to as much of your investment pie as possible. So stay tuned with us next week as we talk about fees. Tim, I want to transition into our sixth and final error, which is not using professional advice, not having a coach in your corner when it comes to the financial plan. And I think this is a good segue to what I just mentioned of this day and age, there’s a lot of noise. And so having somebody who’s keeping you accountable, who’s really reflecting back to you what you said were important and the goals, helping you look across the financial plan and really helping to direct you towards those end goals that you had articulated and to keep you on the path when human behavior may suggest that we want to go off the path from time to time. So obviously we’re biased, full disclaimer, we wholeheartedly believe in the value of a financial planner, otherwise we wouldn’t be doing it. So Tim, tell us why you think this is such an important part of the plan and why it’s perhaps a mistake if folks leave out a coach from their plan.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think if we look at it like our mission of empowering pharmacists to achieve financial freedom, I think we both agree that in a one-on-one engagement with a fiduciary, a fee-only planner, is the shortcut to that. And I think we’ve seen that a lot with our clients where we see kind of the before picture and the after picture, and those are typically because of I think that relationship that a planner has with a client and the way that is forcing them to think differently, right? So like I often joke that I’m a financial planner, but I need a financial planner because I need someone to — a third party to objectively look at our financial plan and say like, am I insane? Or are we nuts? Or are we on track? Right? So I like I know the technical piece of it, like I know what it is to be a CFP and what — just like you’re a pharmacist and you need to know the technical piece of it or a doctor, they’re still going to go to like other health providers to kind of provide that insight and those opinions. But so I think the third party is a big thing. I think the other thing that we don’t necessarily trade on that much is, you know, like for a lot of people, when’s the last time you actually sat down and talked about goals with yourself or like with a partner? So like, you know, I kind of equate this to like I’ve been in periods of my life, Tim, where you are so — I don’t want to say like zoned out but like you ever get into your car and you’re going to work, and it’s 6 o’clock in the morning or whenever you go into your work, and you drive that 30-minute commute, and then you get to work and you don’t even remember any of that drive. It’s just —

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right. Yep.

Tim Baker: You’re on like autopilot. I think that the danger of not utilizing a professional in some regard is that you get into that where you like wake up 10 years from now or 20 years from now and you’re like, what the heck did I actually do? Or like is this a wealthy life for me? And you’re not having those critical conversations with yourself or out loud, which I think can be so powerful. So where are we going? Are we sure that’s where we want to go? Is this insane? And having that kind of, again, objective third party to make sure that we’re outlining goals and we’re being held accountable to that. And then I think the other thing that like is really important is that guidance, is that knowledge, is that technical expertise with best interests in mind. So to me, like if you’re talking to a financial planner, the two things that I think need to be there and if they’re not I’m going the other way is are you a CFP? So unlike a PharmD or JD or MD, like this is a designation that there’s an ethics requirement, there’s an experience requirement, there’s an education requirement that most financial advisors don’t need to kind of do what they’re doing. So like the barrier to entry to become a financial planner is very low. So you want to make sure that the CFP designation is there. And I think the other thing is are you a fiduciary? Are you going to act in my best interests? Or can you put your interests, meaning the planner’s interests, ahead of mine? And what most people don’t know is that 95% of advisors out there are not fiduciaries. And typically if you know the names of those types of firms, they’re not fiduciaries, meaning that they can put their own client — put their own interests ahead of their client’s. So you know, I think that the technical expertise and that is, those are just table stakes. Like I think that that’s going to come with the territory. It’s really I think overlying the human element and to me, I think what we try to do from a planning perspective is make sure that we’re taking care of clients today, say in 2021, but we’re also taking care of clients in 10, 20, 30 years from now and their future self and really threading the needle between taking care of what’s going on today and then that future version of yourself. And I feel like if you don’t feel like that push and pull, if you’re always saving or if you’re always spending, that can lead to some problems. And I think that having that objective third party to kind of guide and hold you accountable, give you some tough love, give you some encouragement, give you some idea of where you’re at compared to peers, for example, I think that’s vitally important.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and Tim, what you said about the human element just really resonates with me and I think will with our community as well. I mean, I think we often may have a perception of financial planners or advisors, whether that’s from movies or books we’ve read or parents that have worked with an advisor, whatever it be, but we tend to think I think of more of that tactical type of moves that folks are making, right, whether that’s certain investing decisions and insurance decisions, maybe it’s Roth conversions, things like that, tax decisions, etc. All of those are important and to your point, that’s table stakes in terms of an expertise that they’re going to provide. You want that knowledge, experience, and expertise. But it’s the human element. I think so much of the value you’ve provided to Jess and I has been in the conversations that have been initiated and the constant revisiting of what are our goals? What did we say was important, and are we actually living the wealthy life that we said we wanted to live? And the answer to that is not always yes, but we need that compass that we’re moving towards and we need that reminder, we need some accountability, we need a coach to make sure as life is racing by that we’re ultimately stopping, pausing, and getting back on the direction that we said was so important. So for those that are listening to this, if that is resonating with you, we’d love to have an opportunity to talk with you to see if what we offer from a financial planning standpoint is a good fit for you. You can go to YFPPlanning.com, you can schedule a free discovery call. Again, YFPPlanning.com. Tim or I would love to have a chance to talk with you further. Tim, great stuff. We’ve covered six common financial errors, and as always, we appreciate the community listening in to this podcast. If you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the podcast, please do us a favor and leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show. That will help other pharmacists be able to find this show as well. Thank you so much for joining, and we look forward to this episode next week. Have a great rest of your day.

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YFP 188: Playing with FIRE: An Interview with Scott Rieckens

Posted on January 28, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

Playing with FIRE: An Interview with Scott Rieckens

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Scott Rieckens, author of Playing with FIRE, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about his journey towards achieving FIRE. Scott digs into the ins and outs of the FIRE movement, why he and his wife decided to leave their friends and family in San Diego, how to calculate your early retirement number, and strategies for implementing your own FIRE plan.

About Today’s Guest

Scott Rieckens is an Emmy-nominated film/video producer, serial entrepreneur, and author. Scott has spent his career as a storyteller connecting people with ideas. Along the way, Scott’s work has generated millions of views through a feature-length documentary, multiple televisions series, short films, and a diverse range of commercial projects for Microsoft, NBC, Facebook, FOX, Taylor Guitars, BMW, WIRED and others.

Now, Scott has created Playing with FIRE, which explores the growing community of frugal-minded folks choosing a path to financial independence and early retirement. He and his family reside in Bend, OR.

Summary

When Scott Rieckens, author of Playing with FIRE and creator of the documentary Playing with FIRE, discovered FIRE (financial independence, retire early) a few years ago, it was life changing for him and his family. Achieving FIRE allows people to potentially retire decades earlier than they normally would, a dream that many think could never become a reality. There are some guidelines that allow people to reach this dream, like the 4% rule and 25x rule, however, Scott mentions that FIRE helps you learn habits that push you to save a lot more than you ever thought possible and gets you to start spending your money on things that align with your values. He says that if you start saving more than your spending, you can invest your money in index funds, max out tax advantaged accounts, and let compound interest take over.

Scott became interested in starting a journey towards FIRE after realizing that he wasn’t in control of his time and was spending more time working than he was with his family. With some calculations, Scott determined that if he saved 16% of his income he would retire in 33.4 years but if he saved 58% of his income he could retire in 11 years. He realized that his family was spending money frivolously and went on a quest to align their spending with their values to help reduce their expenses. To figure out his family’s core values, Scott and his wife, Taylor, independently wrote 10 things that provide happiness to them. They continued this exercise weekly and used it as a tool to reduce spending money on things that weren’t aligned with their values and created a budget around what makes them happy.

Scott also talks through how mental shifts can help you cut expenses, how to push yourself to save more money, how to calculate your early retirement number, and strategies for implementing your own FIRE plan.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Scott, welcome to the show!

Scott Rieckens: Thanks for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Really excited about this interview. As I mentioned before we hit record, I loved the book “Playing with FIRE,” couldn’t put it down, read it in about 24 hours. Loved the documentary. And I’m excited to get you in front of our community as I know this topic is something that is of interest, and I think your story as well as the broader conversation around FIRE is going to provide a lot of value. So thank you again for taking the time.

Scott Rieckens: Yeah, it’s my absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

Tim Ulbrich: So for those in our community that are hearing about FIRE for maybe the first or even second time, give us a high level overview. What exactly is the FIRE movement all about?

Scott Rieckens: So the FIRE movement, it’s — FIRE is an acronym that stands for Financial Independence, Retire Early. And I think it’s a community of people who are practicing sort of a preconceived set of principles so that they can put themselves in a position of financial independence, potentially retiring decades earlier than they would have expected with sort of the way we saw ourselves growing up. So you know, it’s sort of nebulous because there are certain rules that — well, there’s things like the 4% Rule that’s called a rule, but it’s really more of a guideline. And I kind of see many of the principles of FIRE being more of a guideline than a rule. So there’s no hard and fast rules in the FIRE movement. There’s probably not even a real movement yet. But I do think that we’re starting to see seeds of social change. And once, you know, once this can really hit mainstream to the point where we’re seeing social change predicated off of or because of the FIRE movement, then I think we can call it a movement. But for now, it’s fun to call it the movement because it helps those of us who are trying to make it a movement move along. But ultimately the idea is that you learn habits that help you save a lot more than you thought was possible or just really start spending according to your values and really taking a hard look at what those values are as it relates to your spending. And if you can start saving more than you’re making, well, we have a pretty tried-and-true investment strategy. You know, and again, it varies and they’re more guidelines. But in general, people like to invest the surplus in index funds and max out your tax advantaged accounts as much as possible. And then the beauty of compound interest takes over, and the next thing you know, you’re looking at a growing net worth, a growing portfolio, and before you know it, you might have enough to live off of for the rest of your life. So these were all foreign concepts to me three years ago. And then I heard a podcast with Mr. Money Mustache, who is one of the — maybe one of the modern founders of the FIRE movement — and he was discussing these things, and I had never heard of them. I always looked at investing as sort of this nebulous thing that I wasn’t too aware of and I would need a Master’s degree to even participate in. So I kind of brushed it under the rug. And then I heard about all these things, and it all sounded pretty easy to understand and pretty accessible, and it all made sense. And so that’s kind of how I got on the path to our FIRE journey.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And I love that you mentioned, Scott, guidelines because I think that it can feel perhaps if people are learning for the first time that it’s an exact science or somewhat legalistic in some regards. But as we talk about many parts of the financial plan, it comes down to customizing it to your personal situation, and everyone’s situation is different. So I think the guidelines, the principles, are really important. And one of those being — you mentioned the 4% Rule. Talk to us about what is the 4% Rule, and how does that impact one determines what their “FIRE number” is?

Scott Rieckens: Yeah, so the 4% Rule, like I said, more of a 4% Guideline, is a pretty incredible little assumption. And it’s that if you withdraw 4% off of your portfolio annually that — I think it’s something like you have a 96% chance of not running out of your principal investment portfolio over 30 years. And it’s based off of this thing called the Trinity Study. So another way to look at it is — the way I like to look at it is the 25x Rule. And so basically, you take your annual spending. Let’s say it’s $40,000 a year. And you multiply that by 25. And that is $1 million. And so basically, it gives you a way to figure out how much do I need to retire? So if your annual spending is x, you multiply x by 25, and that’s how much you need to retire because you’ll have a 96% chance of never running out of the principal investment portfolio that you have. So it’s a pretty darn safe assumption and guideline. Now, there are some people in the movement that are maybe talking about 3.75% or 3.5% is even safer, and that’s — you know, that all has to do with so many different parameters: your risk tolerance, if you plan to have sort of a side hustle or any kind of passive income or non-passive income into your “retirement years.” And those things can affect, you know, when you decide or what your percentage or when you decide to pull the trigger on your path to financial independence. But in general, I mean, I was starting from scratch. So I couldn’t have even told you how to understand what I need to retire or what that would even look like. And so to just call it the 4% Rule or the 25x and the way I just described it to you, like that’s pretty simple. It made sense to me. And it’s backed by some pretty credible studies. And like I said, there’s people in the movement who are far superior to me in intelligence who pick this stuff apart annually. And so this isn’t something that’s like oh yeah, a study way back in the day said this thing, so we’re all good. This is something that people are constantly scrutinizing. And it turns out what it’s all predicated on is the stock market over time just continues to grow. And so if you’re putting your investments into the stock market — and one of the safest bets you can make is investing in index funds because especially really solid index funds like let’s say Vanguard’s VTSAX, there are a whole team of people who are ensuring that the index of stocks are the highest performing stocks they can possibly have in that index, and it basically represents the growing stock market. So what’s nice about that is you can take a pretty reasonable growth average, and then you can start building models for what your future might look like. And like we have a retirement calculator on our website that, you know, basically bakes in all these principles into one little calculator, and you just plug in your own personal numbers and you can kind of see, oh, alright, you’re on the path, and this is how long it’s going to take you to reach financial independence. Taylor and I did this early, early on in our journey, and for Taylor, it was a huge eye-opener. It was for me as well, but I had gone through a lot of this stuff because I didn’t bring it all to her right away because it was a lot to bring because we were making a lot of interesting money decisions at that time, and there was a lot to unpack there to keep our relationship together while trying to also convince her to maybe join me on this crazy quest to pursue FIRE. But ultimately, you know, when we did the retirement calculator, at our current spending at that time, we were looking at — I think it was something like 40 years of additional work. And at that point, we were so burnt out by work, 40 years sounded like a life sentence. And it was something like we’d be working into our mid- to late 70s I want to say. And then I did some rearranging and said, OK, well if we cut our rent by this and we get rid of our two leased cars and we buy a used car for $8,000 or whatever it was, and we cut our food spending — we needed to cut that quite a bit, it was more than half, let’s say that — and then all these other extraneous things we’re doing, I mean, entertainment. The amount of money we were spending on entertainment was insane, especially where we lived where there was so much free entertainment all around us. And I started doing those numbers and kind of just built a pretty reasonable budget, and I re-entered that information into the retirement calculator to see that we were I think at that time, it was something like 10 years or something away from financial independence. I mean, to shave three decades off of your working career by just making smart money decisions, to me, that was a no-brainer. And it was a huge eye-opener because it wasn’t as if we were spending because we couldn’t help it. It wasn’t because — we weren’t spending because we have an insatiable consumeristic bent, you know?

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Scott Rieckens: We didn’t see ourselves that way at all. We kind of were that way, but we didn’t see ourselves that way. And so to just have that eye-opening realization and to get that in order and to do so with the guidance of a pretty strong community online where I could go for answers at any time and have some pretty compelling arguments on why I would want to do these things, it was a pretty quick and swift decision I think in the Rieckens household. And then we got busy sharing that story with the world because I’m a content creator by trade, and this story just seemed too important not to share.

Tim Ulbrich: And it was a great story to share. And for those that want to check out the retirement calculator as well as the other resources and learn more about the book, the documentary, PlayingwithFIRE.co, again, PlayingwithFIRE.co. And Scott, the math is really incredible. I pulled a note from the book. You had mentioned that when you first crunched the numbers using that retirement calculator, you determined you could retire in 34.3 years with a savings rate of 16%, which is a pretty good savings rate. And that was using $120,000 annual expenses, $22,000 in savings. And then the next calculation showed a drop from 34.3 years to 11 years if you could cut expenses in half and get to a savings rate of 58%. So I think that’s what I love about the way you teach this material, the way others teach this in the community, the 25x Rule or maybe it’s the 27x Rule, whatever that number is is that it helps shine a light on retirement numbers. It’s math, right? It’s a set of assumptions, and then you can look at things and determine, OK, what can I change? What might I not be able to change? What levers can I pull? What will have more impact? And then you’re off and running if that’s a goal that you want to pursue. And so I want to talk more about your story. And I want to read for a moment a segment from the book, Chapter 1 is Work, Eat, Sleep and Repeat. And you say this at the beginning of the chapter. You say, “If you’d driven by me on the freeway in San Diego on this particular Monday morning in Feb. 2017, you probably wouldn’t have looked twice. A guy in his mid-30s, sitting in traffic in a relatively new but unremarkable car, drinking a cold brew from Starbucks, just another American heading to work. In fact, there was nothing particularly special about that Monday morning, and I would have lumped it in with 100 other ordinary Monday mornings that I had spent navigating traffic on my way to work, except that on this particular morning, I heard an idea that would change the course of my entire life, an idea that would cause me to quit my job, leave California and spend a year traveling with my family, to question everything I thought I knew about success, money and freedom, to find the secret to the American Dream, the thing that most people crave but few achieve, the ability to do absolutely anything I wanted.” My question here is what caused this desire and feeling? And when did this begin?

Scott Rieckens: Man. I haven’t heard that back in awhile. That was fun. I think we all have an inherent desire for a certain sense of freedom and independence. And you know, I think — I can’t speak for everyone, but when I was in school, when I was in high school and then getting into college, I look back with sort of I think I had sort of a relentless optimism that work would be interesting and what I would do would be great and the things that would follow that, family and friends and all the things, you know, that they would carry me along the way. And I think as you start to get in — well, in my case, got into my mid-30s, I’d been working for a decade, some of those things came true. I got to achieve some goals I had set for myself. I had done some things I was proud of, had just started a family, which I was also immensely proud of. And all those things are fantastic, but they weren’t the entire picture of fulfillment for me because what was weighing me down was I wasn’t in control of my time. Next thing you know, I’ve built this family, I’ve got this job, but there’s no balance here. I have to be at my job more that I want to be and see my family less than I want to see them. I think that’s what it really boiled down to was just why don’t I have that control? And when it hit me, what really hit me was it was my own decisions, it was my own choices, our family’s own choices that were hindering us from having that control and having that freedom. And that’s something that had not connected for me. And you know, at the end of the day, for better or for worse, money is how the world operates. You know, this is how our social construct has been constructed. So what it really boils down to is can you earn money? And if so, how are you using it? And I just had not spent the time to consider those things. One of the taglines of this whole project is what if a happier life were a few simple choices away? And I think that’s ultimately — like that encapsulates what I had found, which was that there is a happier life a few simple choices away. That’s incredible. And then the next question that we kind of posed to ourselves was like, how far would you go for financial freedom?

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Scott Rieckens: You know? And that’s ultimately up to you. So that’s why I always say like, the FIRE movement is a set of guidelines, not rules. And the FIRE movement may or may not a movement, but there’s certainly a community of people who really appreciate the idea of spending less on extraneous things that don’t really bring you value and really being smart with your choices. And when you have a group of people that see it that way, it makes it a lot easier to do because I also remember having to unpack our life a bit. You know, there were a lot of — whether it was true or not, whether it was sort of a figment of our imagination or a reality, it felt daunting to suddenly take on a new identity, right? Because you have all of your friends and all of your family that see you one way and have gotten accustomed and used to the way you are. And to have to just kind of throw all that out and start fresh can be really daunting. And so it’s really helpful — you know, like never before were we able to just connect with people that see it this way that might have more information than you do and would happily share it for free instantly. That’s never really happened before, and I think that, like many things that the internet’s provided, it’s created a place where like-minded people can come together and learn from each other and grow something really quickly, grow a social movement very quickly. And right now, you know, Phase 1 of the FIRE whatever it is, to me is getting the word out. It’s improving financial literacy and realigning our world’s connection with what’s most important. You know, that’s a big, daunting task. It’s going to take a lot of time. But the best case scenario would be that Phase 2 is liberating a bunch of really smart, ambitious people from jobs that they may be apathetic at best about and liberate them to go pursue their favorite future. And what could that look like? And how could that change the world?

Tim Ulbrich: I love the way you’re thinking about that because I share that with you, Scott. What would that look like for our communities? What would that look like in terms of people maximizing their talent and their passions? And you know, we’re so passionate at YFP about if we can help put together a financial plan that allows people to pursue some of those goals, wow. I mean, game on in terms of what we could see in people getting the most of the talents that they’ve been getting. One of the things in the book that really resonated with me, as well as the documentary, which showcases the process that you and your wife Taylor worked through to get on a shared goal and path to pursue FIRE. And you mention this wasn’t easy. You know, you were obviously on board, ready to go, had been learning a lot of information and trying to get on the same page. But what I loved was in the book, in Chapter 3, you talk about an exercise where you and Taylor independently wrote down 10 things that provided happiness. And then you came together to share those lists. Why did you do that activity? And what did you glean from doing that?

Scott Rieckens: Yeah, I think, you know, looking back, it was a lot smarter decision that I think I knew it was at the time. But ultimately, you know, if we needed to align our values with our spending, it’s like, well, what are our values? And I think an easy way to decide is just think about what makes you happy. And you know, we did a happiness list predicated on a weekly basis. And it felt like the right time frame. Like if you do like on a daily basis, you’re going to get in the minutia of life and you might get too specific about the things that bring you happiness. And if you go too far out, you might get a little grand. It might be international travel or BMWs or whatever Taylor might have put on the list at that time. But a weekly basis, it’s like, what are you up to this week? And it’s like, well, I’ve got work, I’ve got this, I’ve got that. And what am I going to do to kind of inject some happiness along the way? Well, I’m going to go for a walk. I’m going to go for a bike ride. I’m going to maybe make a nice dinner this week or whatever it is. So it becomes that sort of like centered, realistic happiness list. So I really like the weekly timeframe. But yeah, we sat down and did that, and there’s a couple elements to it. One is I can’t decide for Taylor what makes her happy. And at that time, we were living in this beach community and were spending a ton of money to do so. And if the beach was on her list, and the lifestyle that that particular area provided was just swarming her list, then I had my work cut out for me. We would have to figure out a way to make that work because, you know, the idea of pursuing FIRE was not to go create a whole bunch of disruptive, diminished returns. Like I wanted to make sure that this was going to improve our lives. And so I needed to hear that from her. And she needed to consider it too because you can easily be reactionary when you think something’s about to be taken away from you. You can easily be reactionary when you’re being propositioned with something as drastic as maybe FIRE could be, and it was for us, of like having to — not having to, but maybe making the choice to move. That’s a big choice. Leave your friends behind, leave your jobs behind, like whatever you end up doing. And so yeah, I think you need to start with ultimately like, what are your values? And I think that was a way to do it. So that was critical. And it actually helped so tremendously because we didn’t even talk about money first. We talked about happiness. And I can’t recommend that enough. You talk about what matters to you the most. Then go work on a budget. Don’t work on a budget and never talk about happiness.

Tim Ulbrich: Amen.

Scott Rieckens: Or go the other way, you know, talk about your budget and then talk about happiness. Like how are you going to budget for things if you don’t know what you care about? You know, it was such a small but critical piece to our journey. And yeah, I can’t recommend it enough. Whether you decide to pursue FIRE or not, going through your Top 10 list of what makes you happy on a weekly basis quite often, maybe quarterly or biannually, is a damn good idea because it changes too. You know? We’re evolving beings, and we care more about things sometimes and care less about things other times. And those things should be reflected in your spending habits. So yeah, that was critical. And I got lucky in that scenario because she did not talk about her expensive car and she did not talk about the beach. And so that really was an opening to mutually discuss the potential for leaving. And that was ultimately I think what I would credit with why that was so successful.

Tim Ulbrich: And that was the sense I got when I read it, and it’s quoted here, you talk it all out. I hope our listeners take you up on that challenge to do it. I couldn’t agree more. And just as I reread some of these, it puts things into perspective really quick, right? I mean, I see things on here like, “Hearing my baby laugh,” you know, “Spending time having coffee with my husband,” “going for a walk,” “going for a bike ride.” And I think starting with those types of conversations around happiness and then getting into the budget and the plan and how we’re going to get there is so important. We taught this often with the financial plan of think about the goals, script your plan, and then we’ll get into the x’s and o’s because the x’s and o’s should be within the framework of the vision that we have, and that vision should ultimately derive back to how is money a tool related to deriving happiness? And by the way, Taylor nailed this when she had on here, “Wine, chocolate, and coffee.” Three of my favorite things. So she crushed that list.

Scott Rieckens: Yeah. Yeah. And I told her, look, we can buy all the wine, chocolate, and coffee you want if we take these steps on all the rest of it. And it’s worked.

Tim Ulbrich: So you mentioned the BMW, and I know that comes up throughout the book, but in all seriousness, when our listeners hear the timeframe I mentioned earlier, going from a projected retirement in 34 years down to 11 and how do you get there, you cut expenses and you increase savings. And obviously the next question is, well, how do you make dramatic cuts to expenses so you can increase your savings? So you mentioned food being one of them. You’ve alluded to the BMW. Were there other big-ticket items that were instrumental to you guys knocking down a big expense so you could get the momentum you needed?

Scott Rieckens: You know, specifically, housing, cars and food are typically the top three items that cost the most for an average family. So housing, cars and food are the No. 1 three things that I would recommend taking a hard look at, how you can get creative. Outside of those specific things, I think the thing that was the most important was the mentality, the mental shift and being on the same page because — and I can tell you this from three years of experience now. We’re not always rocking the FIRE train. You know, it’s not consistent. Like it can be consistent. We can go months, even years, where we’re on track. And then like COVID hit. And boy, one excuse after another just start popping in. Like oh, hell no. I’m doing this, I’m doing that. I’m buying this, I’m buying that. I don’t care. And I don’t regret it. We looked back at the New Year, during the New Year here, we looked back at 2020 and we said, “You know what? I think it’s better if we just don’t look at it. Let’s forgive ourselves for the decisions we made and let’s look forward because the good news is we already kind of built up the muscle, you know? We already worked out, we already know how to do this. And so let’s just keep — let’s just do it again.” And it’s amazing because it was literally a mental shift. We sat down to kind of plan out our 2021, a little vision board kind of afternoon. And it really came down to like, we wrote down the things that we wanted to shift from 2020 to 2021. And it was like, anytime we make a purchase, we talk to each other about it first, no matter how trivial because that will make us question our own decision on whether or not we need that thing and will be less about what I have to say to her and it’s more about what she has to say to herself. And it kind of prevents this reflexive, oh, it’s on Amazon, let’s grab it real quick, it’ll be here in two days, easy day, done. And that can get out of hand so quick, and so it was — and we’ve done things like that in the past, like put something in the Amazon cart and you have to keep it there for three days. If you come back in three days and you still want it, you can get it. We needed to go a little harder this time into this new year because 2020 was a dumpster fire. But again, it’s just like the best you can do is flex that mentality because we immediately got on the same page. We didn’t have to have the difficult discussion again. And I think we had the financial maturity finally to look at 2020 and say, there was a reason for those decisions. And we don’t need to sit here and relive them, we don’t need to make ourselves feel bad about them. And it did set us back a little bit on our FIRE journey. But we’re in good shape, and thank goodness because with the destruction of this year, I mean, how grateful and lucky are we that we found this when we did?

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Scott Rieckens: Imagine where we would be if we hadn’t. And imagine all the folks who are suffering through these difficult times, you know? And so we were able to look at that and go, OK, we’re super lucky. Let’s get back on track because it would be a real damn shame not to, considering everything we have, you know? It’s like, we can’t afford not to do the right thing here. So I hope that answers your question. I don’t like getting into the specific, specific things of how to cut budgets because it’s really personal. You know? You may live in a low cost of living area already with a budget that’s kind of maxing out. And you don’t know what to do, and that could be a matter of having to find ways to increase your income, negotiate a bigger salary, move to a better place — or not a better place but a place with better prospects for higher salaries in your job and then being more deliberate about what your costs are in that higher cost of living area so that you can reap the benefits of the higher pay but not have to also succumb to the higher living costs. You know, there are ways to do those things, the geoarbitrage stuff. But to me, that’s all the fun fine dining in the FIRE community. That’s all the stuff you can learn in the blogs and the podcasts and whatnot is all those very specific detailed minutia of how to really formulate your budget if you want to go hard. But to get started, I think the bigger challenge and the bigger quest is for people to align their values with their spending and start pushing themselves, you know? Taylor and I, we did something that I would recommend, actually. It was extreme in some cases, and I use that word kind of flippantly. I don’t know if it’s extreme, per se, but we — I mean, we did a lot of things very quickly. Within months, we literally packed up and moved our stuff to try to find a place that was cheaper to live, leaving behind a job. I quit my job to do this. And we left behind a whole set of friends and a whole culture that we had built for ourselves, you know? And we slashed all of our spending so hard that we ended up at our peak, we were at like a 76% or 78% savings rate, something in that range. It was extreme. We didn’t buy anything unless it was absolutely critical. And we started to get a little miserable, to be honest. Like it wasn’t fun, you know? And part of that was good, though, because we were ripping off the Band-Aid and showing ourselves how much retail therapy we were really doing. And it ended up being — that’s like such an old adage, but it’s like, you know, the best things in life are free and all that stuff. It’s like, yeah, and not only that but we were going to sushi dinners, let’s say, or just nice, fine dining dinners so often that I remember — I remember one time sitting down to a beautiful, amazing sushi dinner. And we were walking home from it, and I think our discussion was something along the lines of like, “Yeah, it was good, but I feel like last week’s was better.” And it was like, that’s horrible. That’s a horrible waste of money because if I’m comparing this amazing, decadent, unbelievable dinner that took — if you think about what it took to get that fish on that plate, it’s incredible.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Scott Rieckens: And I’m sitting here comparing it to last week’s. And it’s like, oh my gosh. And so to go through and really rip that Band-Aid off and go through the sort of “hardships,” you know, and then all of a sudden we haven’t eaten out in two or three months and then you go to a medium fancy restaurant, and it’s like heaven.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Scott Rieckens: It’s so amazing. And so it’s almost like it’s a weird hack where all of a sudden, you’re like, wait, I like this more now.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Scott Rieckens: Because I’m doing it less. And that’s when you can get into stoicism and all these various philosophies. And I don’t know, it’s just like our life started improving, even when it was more difficult. And that was an interesting paradox that ultimately, to bring this all back, is the reason why I suggest if people are interested in this and you decide to do it, to go hard at first because, you know, push yourself as hard as you can to see what your real — not your breaking point, but like, you know, your proverbial budget breaking point, see what that is and then work backwards from that. Don’t start where you are and incrementally try to improve because I just don’t think that’s going to be as effective, and you probably won’t stick with it, you know? But for us, to like go to 76-78% savings rates and be miserable and start going, OK, what are the things that we should add back in? And that was a deliberate decision. Next thing you know, we’re hitting like a 50% savings rate, which is incredible. And it feels easy. It feels luxurious. And it’s like, oh, this is it. This is awesome. How lucky are we. But we could have been doing the whole time if we had just made better decisions. And so yeah, I hope that helps.

Tim Ulbrich: It does. And the book and the documentary really takes the reader or viewer through your individual stories. And I also like in the book, you bring in other examples as I think that, again, back to the comment about customizing the scene, the different variations, helps give people ideas about how this might apply to their own individual situation. And one of the questions I have for you, Scott, is when I read the book, I really connected with you as a father of four young children. You discuss in the book the birth of your daughter in 2015 and how ultimately, you’d be pursuing this journey together as a young family. And I suspect many of our listeners are wondering, man, is this really possible? Is this lifestyle and this goal realistic with children? You picked up, you moved, you made some drastic cuts along the way. What advice or what thoughts would you give people surrounding pursuing FIRE while they have a young family?

Scott Rieckens: I don’t know that the children thing — the children thing’s tough because they are expensive little buggers, you know? They are. They’re going to “set you back” from your financial independence date.

Tim Ulbrich: Fact.

Scott Rieckens: But that’s ultimately a tradeoff — I’m sure you would agree with me — is well worth it.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure. Yes, absolutely.

Scott Rieckens: Nothing’s more important. I think for me, I look at it a little differently. It’s not, “Hey, guys, you’ve got some kids? Here’s a couple of trick to make it totally possible to do FIRE.” If you use kids as your excuse not to pursue FIRE, you’re not going to pursue FIRE, but it won’t be because of your kids. It’s because you have decided that that’s what you’ve — that’s what you’ve decided. You know? Don’t use the excuse of your kids. I’m here to tell you, I mean, I only have one, so I don’t have four. But — sorry about that. Gees. Good for you. Wow. Fighting the good fight. But you know, ultimately, we’ve got such a better plan for our financial future and her financial future because we’ve decided to make these choices. And I recognize that not everyone could tomorrow pick up and make the choice. But I assume, you know, your audience is probably in the camp that could make these choices. They just seem daunting. And that’s a great place to be. And so yeah, I wouldn’t use kids as an excuse. There are ways to — obviously there are hacks in everything we do when we spend money. And there are things that you think you need to spend money on that you don’t, you know? You can — just to be clear, I mean, you can buy the brand new Italian-made stroller. Or you can look on Facebook Marketplace or Craigslist and find a used one. It’s all the obvious tips and tricks. But what’s more impactful, in my opinion, is you look at that and you go, yeah, but for my baby, I want the best or for my baby, it needs to be this or that. And those are the types of things where if you’re really aligning your values with your spending, you may look at it a little bit differently after you really do some reading up on the FIRE movement and you understand why you’re spending and the decisions that you’re making. And the next thing you know, you go from only the best for my baby to only the best for my baby and what that entails is not a brand new, Italian-made stroller. It is buying the budget stroller because the amount of money that we can save by doing that will ultimately lead to that child’s college fund or our ability to spend more time with that kid, which will then allow that child to grow better, have a better relationship with their family, with their parents, get more attention and so on and so forth. I mean, these shifts are exponential. The compound interest does not just take over on the money. Yeah, that’s how I would look at it. It’s not a matter of you’ve got kids, here’s five budget tips to help with FIRE when you have kids.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Scott Rieckens: It’s, you have kids? Don’t use them as an excuse to pursue financial independence, which will ultimately benefit everyone in your family.

Tim Ulbrich: And speaking of daunting, many of our listeners, Scott, unfortunately are facing big-time student loan debt. For those that came out of pharmacy school in 2020, about $175,000 is the average, $175,000. So maybe this goes in the excuse bucket, maybe not, but obviously big student loan debt, granted they have a decent income to work with. But what are the thoughts for folks that have big mountains of student loan debt? Obviously that’s a barrier, but is something that others are facing. What have you heard from your experience? And what advice or thoughts do you give folks that are looking at student loan debt but want to pursue a path towards financial independence?

Scott Rieckens: First of all, I have the utmost empathy for people that have that kind of a mountain of debt. And you know, the hope is that that debt was an investment in an education that’s going to give you the ability to pay off that debt and ultimately be even better off for it in the long run. And so with that in mind, nothing changes about my advice or the way I see it because if you have debt, as insurmountable as it may feel, that is ultimately just one barrier in the way of financial independence. And so I guess instead of starting from $0 and then starting to build your net worth, you’re starting from negative and starting to build your net worth. Either way, I would say if you have that amount of debt, you should consider it and treat it as an emergency and a crisis. And people with that situation should absolutely pursue FIRE, at the very least to get themselves out of that debt and starting at $0, you know? And what you do see oftentimes is people that I’ve seen, I’ve seen it, I’ve seen it with my own eyes, I’ve talked to people that did these things and then pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, got the FIRE thing going, and pulled themselves out of this situation. You still have all of these choices. And a lot of times, you’ll see you’ve got this mounting pile of debt, but you have a nice income, and the debt only costs x amount a month, so I’m going to lease this new vehicle, I’m going to get this nice house because I worked so hard to become this profession and now that money’s coming in, so this is what we’re going to do. And all of this boils down to still is choices. It’s those choices. Hey, I’m going to buy a used vehicle with cash that I saved up, and I’m going to eliminate these monthly payments. And those monthly payments are going to go to fund our 401k’s and our Roths. Or if you have a mountain of debt, we are going to pay off that debt as voraciously as we possibly can to get ourselves in a better position, you know? I don’t know, the advice doesn’t change. If anything, it becomes louder if you have a mountain of debt. And that’s a non-empathetic but realistic way to look at it. And another thing I should say is one of the prominent people in the FIRE movement, his name’s Johnathan Mendanza, he’s a cohost of Choose FI, he was a pharmacist.

Tim Ulbrich: Pharmacist.

Scott Rieckens: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Scott Rieckens: And he walked away from a job about a year after finding FIRE because he realigned his spending with his values, he got right, he got on a good track, and then he built what was originally a fun side hustle into something that could sustain him. And he chose a different path than pharmacy. And I’m not suggesting people need to do that. Some people may love their jobs. And by the way, the whole retire early thing? Let’s not get caught up on it. It happens all the time. You may like your job. Great. This is still for you because if you enjoy your job but you have the freedom and flexibility if conditions change, that’s still a win-win. You know?

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Scott Rieckens: Ultimately, it’s about gaining back your freedom of choice.

Tim Ulbrich: Couldn’t agree more. I think financial independence is a goal we all should strive for. And I think that should resonate with folks, whether they love what they do every day, they don’t, or somewhere in between. And I want to again point our community to both the documentary, “Playing with FIRE,” as well as your book, “Playing with FIRE.” I can’t say enough about both of those, what they’ve meant to me, the impression they’ve left on me and my wife, Jess. “Playing with FIRE,” the documentary will be available on Amazon, iTunes, Google Play, Vimeo or folks can pick up the DVD at PlayingwithFIRE.co. Storytelling is outstanding, it was named a Top 10 Best Finance Movies of the Decade by U.S. News. It includes a cast of personal finance and FIRE all stars, including Mr. Money Mustache, Vicki Robbins, who’s the author of “Your Money, Your Life,” The Minimalists, the Mad Scientist, Jonathan Brad from Choose FI and more. And then the book, you know, we’ve just scratched the surface here and there’s much more to learn in the book, including the seven steps to achieving FIRE, where to learn more about FIRE and the FIRE community, how to crunch your own FIRE numbers, many FIRE stories, and much more. And that is readily available wherever you normally purchase your books. So Scott, thank you so much again for taking time to come on the show. What is the best place for our listeners to go to learn more about you and the work that you’re doing?

Scott Rieckens: Thanks, Tim. Yeah, PlayingwithFIRE.co, it’s got it all. I’m a big fan of Twitter, so we’re on Twitter @playingwithfireco, and we’re on Instagram as well. So yeah, those are the places you can find us. And hope to see you there.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff again, Scott. And on behalf of the YFP community and our team, thank you so much for taking the time.

Scott Rieckens: Thanks, Tim.

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YFP 177: New Book: Baker’s Dirty Dozen: Principles for Financial Independence

Posted on November 5, 2020November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

New Book: Baker’s Dirty Dozen: Principles for Financial Independence

Joe Baker, author of the newly released book Baker’s Dirty Dozen: Principles for Financial Independence, joins Tim Ulbrich on the show. Joe talks about several of the principles outlined in the book, why he wrote the book and what he hopes the reader will glean from applying its principles.

About Today’s Guest

Joe Baker is an Adjunct Assistant Professor at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences College of Pharmacy where he has taught personal finance for over twenty years, as well as an adjunct instructor at Harding University College of Pharmacy. He holds a Bachelor of Business Administration from Southern Arkansas University and a Masters of Business Administration from the University of Central Arkansas. Joe retired early in 2019 from Pharmacists Mutual Company where he provided insurance and financial services to Arkansas pharmacists for twenty-eight years. Joe has spoken to both academic and corporate groups across the country promoting financial literacy.

In an effort to give back to his community, he has endowed a scholarship fund for students graduating from his hometown of Emerson, Arkansas.

Joe and his wife, Brenda, live in Little Rock, Arkansas.

Summary

Joe Baker has been teaching personal finance to pharmacists for over 20 years as an Adjunct Assistant Professor at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences College of Pharmacy as well as an adjunct instructor at Harding University College of Pharmacy. Tim Ulbrich approached Joe and asked if he’d be interested in writing a book and Joe realized there were a lot of lessons in personal finance he could share. With the help of his daughter Lindsey, Joe wrote over 250 pages of the key principles he teaches and has learned along his journey of personal finances. This book is composed of practical experience and contributions and stories from over 40 people.

In this episode, Joe walks through several of the principles he has written about like finding a path that will fulfill you, getting and staying out of debt, setting up a 401(k) and Roth IRA, finding the right house and picking the right mortgage, protecting your assets and making a difference in your community.

Through November 7th, you can use the coupon code BAKER at www.bakersdirtydozen.com for 15% off your order of the book.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Joe, welcome back to the show.

Joe Baker: Well, thank you, Tim, for the invite.

Tim Ulbrich: Excited to have you. Huge accomplishment as you release your new book, and we’re going to dig in and talk about several aspects of that book, really a comprehensive guide not only for pharmacy professionals but really just a guide overall about how to live a financially well life and how to do it with intention. And we had you on the show back on Episode 082 with Blake Johnson as he shared his debt-free journey. And during that show, Blake articulated how important your guidance was, your mentorship and your role as a teacher in terms of how important that was in the journey for he and his wife to becoming debt-free. And so now we get to talk about how you have compiled all of that wisdom that Blake and other students who have been blessed with your guidance and teachings often speak of as you release your new book, “Baker’s Dirty Dozen: Principles for Financial Independence.” So Joe, first of all, congratulations. I know a lot of sweat, a lot of time went into putting together this book. And here we are, finally getting ready to release it. So congrats.

Joe Baker: Yes, well thank you for talking me into it. I guess I say thank you.

Tim Ulbrich: So I have to ask, now that you’re on the back end of this and we finally get this into the hands of folks and many, many months of writing and editing went into this, and I told you very early on, I said, “Hey, Joe, at some point, this is going to become fun.” And you kept saying, “When is that? When is that?” So as you look now backwards, tell us about the process. What was it like? What type of time was involved? And would you do it again?

Joe Baker: Would I do it again? Yes, I would do it again. But I’d have open eyes this time. I had been thinking about writing a book for years. Former students and current students would say, “Why don’t you put this down on paper and let us have it in a book?” And I didn’t really think much about it until you mentioned — I think it was in May of last year, 2019 — you mentioned and said, “Hey, why don’t you write a book and we will help you promote it?” Then that got the bug started and I started thinking about it and said, you know, I think I can come up with some things. And on August the 15, I started the book. And coincidentally, I started writing the book for something to do in the hospital room. My wife was having some surgeries. And quite frankly, I wrote most of the book in the hospital room. Now, she’s fine today and everything went well. But you know, it was pretty tough having to write a book when someone’s over there moaning in pain. I’d have to call a nurse and say, “Hey, give us some pain pills in here. I’m trying to write my first book.” They weren’t too sympathetic, nor was my wife. But most of it was written, I mean, during the hospital stay. And what’s interesting — I tell people this story — is I thought I was pretty much finished at Christmas. And my daughter, who is just very astute on editing and all that sort of thing, she said, “Well, Dad, why don’t you let me read it and edit it?” I said, “OK. Go ahead.” Well, she started into editing the book, and lo and behold, she would say, “Dad, I don’t understand.” I said, “Lindsey, you’ve got to understand, I wrote this for millennials.” And she said, “Well, I don’t understand it.” So we went almost paragraph by paragraph throughout the book and rewrote it to where she could understand it as a liberal arts major and put in some stories. It was so much involved, involvement for her that I just felt obliged to name her a coauthor because she did, she made it sound so much better. I shouldn’t say this, but one day I was reading through it for the thousandth time, and I said, “You know, I know I’m getting old. But I don’t remember writing this part.” And she said, “Oh yeah, you did not. I put all that in.” I said, “OK.” There is a lot of her in this book, and I’m very proud of what she’s done.

Tim Ulbrich: And shoutout to Lindsey. I appreciated her input along the way. She did a fantastic job. I feel like it’s — as you know, Joe, as I know, especially as you’ve taught on this much longer than I have, it’s very different teaching on this and then putting that into writing in a way that is engaging, that is accessible, that is action-oriented. And I think it takes more effort, but one of the exciting things is this will live on, and it’s going to have an impact on many, many people. And just so folks understand the effort, when you talked about going paragraph by paragraph, we’re talking about paragraph by paragraph of over 250 pages that are in this book. And I think you did an awesome job. One of the first things I said to you after I read it was, “Wow, this is incredibly engaging because of the stories that you’ve included, because of the tone of writing, because of how action-oriented it is.” And you had over 40 people that helped contribute to the book. And I say that as we get ready to jump into talking about some of the key principles because I think this is a topic where multiple perspectives can be helpful to reinforce various points. And I love how you brought in those perspectives and obviously Lindsey put her own stamp on the book as well. So just overall, incredible job. And we’ve got — I think you have photo evidence of some of that hard work writing. I remember you sent me a text at one point with a photo when you were in the hospital writing. And so we’ve got photo evidence of that. So again, congratulations.

Joe Baker: Well thank you. Can I add another story to this? And it kind of goes to one of the reasons I was writing the book is we were playing cards this summer — and by the way, I had my other daughter, Brooke, and her husband, Gabe Crooks, to edit the book. And they did a good job. They weren’t as in depth as Lindsey, but they did do that. We were playing cards, and Gabe and my daughter happened to be there, and we had a big group there playing cards at the table, and one of the card members, one of our friends who is an attorney, says, “Well I couldn’t tell you the difference between an IRA and a Roth IRA.” And all of a sudden, to my right, Gabe, my son-in-law, another liberal arts major, he started explaining the difference, how it’s the taxation, you know, you tax up front and all of that, went into great detail. And I turned to him and I said, “How’d you know that?” He said, “By editing your book.”

Tim Ulbrich: There you go.

Joe Baker: And he’s even starting investing more and more from that. So it seems to have worked.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And I think you know from teaching this for over 20 years as we’ve had several of your former students on this podcast, you know, some people will read this book and go line-by-line and take away multiple things that they’ll apply. Others may take one thing or they’ll jump in and out as their financial life and plan progresses. But I am confident, I know I took many things away, and I’m confident the readers will do the same. Joe, remind our listeners — maybe they didn’t hear you on Episode 082 way back when — a little bit of your career path and then also some of the work that you’ve done over the past 20 years in teaching personal finance. I think it’s a good segway into why you even wrote this book in the first place.

Joe Baker: Well, in my adult life, I’ve worked for 28 years with Pharmacists Mutual companies, so I’m very familiar with pharmacists and pharmacy students. And I spent a lot of time in the college of pharmacy. And in the late ‘90s, I was talking to the assistant dean and the dean about a personal finance course. And one thing led to another, and we started in the fall of ‘99 at the University of Arkansas College of Pharmacy, a two-hour elective for P3s. And I’m going to brag not because of me but because of the content, it is the most popular elective at the university. So it’s been going on for over 21 years. And it’s just — it’s been great. I look forward to it. Pharmacy students are like sponges, they just absorb it all. And we just — we have a good time. We tell a lot of stories. And I learn from them as well. So it’s a two-way street.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And I have been teaching a personal finance elective for I think 4 or 5 years, not 20+ years. But one of the things I often think of is, I wish I would have had this. And I know I hear that from others as well. So lucky to have the students that have been able to take your course, that they have access to that information. And Joe, I wanted to ask, you know, we throw around the term, “financial independence,” “financial freedom,” all the time. And since it’s in the subtitle of your book, “Principles for financial independence,” I want our listeners to hear from you, what does that term mean to you? And why is that concept of financial independence so important?

Joe Baker: Well financial independence to me means that if I want to pick up roots, move to another place, I can. I’m not obliged to stay at the same job that I’m in. It just frees you up to do so many things. And I know that money can’t buy happiness, but I have been without money, and that has made it very unhappy. It’s nice to know that if the refrigerator breaks down, the wash machine, or if you want to go on a trip, that you don’t really have to think that much about the monetary. I know I always try to get a good deal, but having the financial independence to do those things and to buy things that you need, it really makes a big difference. It takes the stress out of marriage and life.

Tim Ulbrich: One of the things too, Joe, that really resonates with me as I’ve gotten to know you over the past couple years and obviously got to be alongside of you in this journey, I often tell people as I’m describing this book, is it really is just spewing out with wisdom. And I mean that genuinely.

Joe Baker: Thank you.

Tim Ulbrich: Because I feel like your life experience really comes through in addition to what you have found as effective ways to teach these principles such that they’re easy to understand and they’re action-oriented. So you mention in the beginning of the book, you chronicle your timeline, 30 years old, you got married having nothing but some debt. I think that’s a story that I can resonate, our listeners can resonate. And then if we fast forward, 59 years old, your liquid net worth percentile increases from the top 8% to the top 4% in the U.S. And you mention it took 52 years to get to 8%, the top 8%, and only seven more years to get to the top 4%. And one of the things you mention there is that the significance here was the result of having no debt. So what else as you look back on this journey going from really a net worth of $0 or negative to obviously being in such a good financial position and being financially independent in addition to no debt and having that philosophy around debt. What else has been the secrets to your success?

Joe Baker: Well, I’ll go back even further. You know, it’s a really remarkable journey considering I grew up in a small rural area in south Arkansas near the Louisiana state line. We did not have an indoor toilet until I was 9 years old. And I always, when I’m mentoring students, I say, “Listen. If I can achieve what I have coming from not having an indoor toilet, you can achieve as well.” But fast forward to age 30, you’re right. I had debt. I did have a TV and a VCR and a bed without a headboard. So I did have some assets. But the fortunate turn in my life was I married a high school math teacher. And even though I had a business background, she came in and showed me time value of money and all of the other numbers. And I said, “Wow.” So she whipped me up in financial shape, and I knew she was the one when we were having a get-together at her condo. I think this was the second town we were together. And we had some people over, and someone picked up a paper towel roll, used the second to last paper towel and proceeded to throw it away. And from a distance, I saw my wife — or future wife — go over to the trash, pull that cylinder out and pull off that last piece that was glued to it. And I said, “Wow. I’m going to marry her,” because I knew that she was tight with money. And of course, she makes me frugal today — or excuse me, she makes me look like a spendthrift. But anyway, that helped transform me. And we instilled those — a lot of the money principles with our children. Those stories and more are in the book.

Tim Ulbrich: And a shoutout to Brenna Baker for allowing you to write this book but also for giving you the foundation, I feel like, for what allowed you to learn this topic and of course in turn, teach others. And I love that line that you say in the book, “My biggest financial accomplishment came from marrying a high school math teacher.” So one of the lessons, which I couldn’t agree more with, is making sure there’s alignment with your partner, your significant other, your spouse, when you’re talking about personal finance. And the earlier you can get to that alignment, the better. And you do a great job of discussing that in the book and how important it is. Let’s jump into different areas of the book. And we’re just going to scratch the surface on these. But principle No. 1, so Baker’s Dirty Dozen Principle No. 1, is find a path that will fulfill you. And I think many may pick up the book and not expect that it would start here. So tell us about why you started here and why this concept of finding a fulfilling path is so important and relevant to the financial plan.

Joe Baker: Well, the book did not start off this way. The book was evolved that I had in mind was don’t do this, don’t do that. And then we had a epiphany — excuse me, I’m under the weather today, so you’ll have to forgive me a little bit — when you and I went to Washington, D.C., last year, it was September of 2019, last year, and we both attended a conference with a speaker. And he changed my whole focus on the book. You know, by not telling people what they need to buy or whatever, so I said, “Everyone needs to find their own path, financially, career-wise,” but the purpose of my book is to show you the opportunity cost of every economic decision you make and let you make that decision. I can’t pick a path for you. This is the path that you have to come up, and with the help of the book, maybe we’ll find a way to finance that path. And you can tell a little bit about the speaker who that was. We’ll give him credit.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, so I remember that. FinCon 2019, we were in D.C. You actually, Joe, if you remember, we had I think lunch or dinner, and you handed me in a manila envelope the first copy of the book. And we could go back and pull that out, and to your point, there was not this part included. We sat through this keynote, which was delivered by Ramit Sethi, which should sound familiar to our listeners, author of “I Will Teach You to be Rich.” Fantastic book. And that keynote, Joe, I remember it was one of those moments for me as well that I talk about often when I am speaking on this topic. He was talking about the concept of money dials and really identifying the things that matter most to you and finding a way to prioritize and fund those in the financial plan. And he had a great example, he called on the audience to do a couple of these, and then finding the areas that don’t mean a whole lot to you and to stop spending money on those things. And he connected that to the concept that we talk a lot about on the show about finding your financial why, having a purpose, having a vision for your financial plan, and by the way, as you mentioned and alluded to in the book, this path can and will look different for probably everyone reading and many of our listeners as well. And so finding that path, articulating that path, defining that path is so important because the financial plan should be a mechanism to help achieve that and make it reality. And for some, that means a very ‘traditional’ path of I’m going to work full-time and I’m going to do that for 30-40 years and I’m going to make a good income. Others may say, you know what? It’s early retirement, it’s staying home with the kids, it’s doing this or that, it’s working part-time, it’s having options, it’s having flexibility. And I think we’re seeing this more than ever of the importance of this. And I know it’s something that I feel personally as well. So I think it’s a great concept and I think it’s a great way to start off the book before you then get into the x’s and o’s of the financial plan. I remember we looked at each other and we’re like, alright, this is something different.

Joe Baker: Yes. I turned to you if you remember, I said, “I’ve just changed the direction of my book.”

Tim Ulbrich: Chapter One, here we go.

Joe Baker: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: I think you do a nice job too in this first principle that I know will resonate with our listeners, many of which in the field of pharmacy while this book goes beyond just one for pharmacists that I know many are struggling with what do I do if I’m in a position where I’m thinking about a career change or I want to do something different or “more meaningful,” how do I consider that? How do I weigh that? And how does that, again, connect back with the financial plan? And you do a nice job of covering that in principle No. 1. Now, you also talk about in the book this concept of avoiding financial minefields. And I think this gets into a little bit of the defensive side of the financial plan. My question here for you is in your experience teaching on this topic and working with many students, what are some of the common financial minefields that you see people stepping into?

Joe Baker: The biggest one right now are weddings. Weddings, I think the national average cost is $33,000, excluding the honeymoon. And that is just a big, big financial minefield. Now, obviously if the person reading the book is not paying for the wedding, that’s a different story. But even for parents paying for the wedding or grandparents or whoever, that should be looked at in the light of opportunity cost. And that’s what I break down in the book, showing if you use less money for a wedding and quite frankly, the stress of a wedding, wow. My daughter, well, Lindsey, she’s one that really wrote a lot about financial minefields of weddings. And she was just in a wedding, and she was — it was very similar to the movie “Bridesmaids” where everything was costing so much, spending so much time. So people have to be aware of that. And that chapter also includes on making the decision on whether you do that or not and plus other decisions, and it’s very similar to another chapter I have, principle No. 4 about understanding the concept of opportunity cost. Every decision we make there’s an opportunity cost whether it’s economic or non-economic. And I try to focus mostly on the economic choices. So weddings, one of the biggest minefields in a list I think a couple more. And I think that’s the same area where I go into budgeting to find out where you’re spending all your money. And you might be surprised at all the smaller minefields.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, you do. You do a good job of that, a stepwise approach for budgeting and trying to identify where those minefields may be. And obviously, you build upon that by talking extensively about student loans, a topic that is near and dear to us. And you also do a nice job in another chapter building on this concept of what I view as some of the defensive parts of the financial plan of the importance of protecting your assets. So of course, details about emergency funds, life insurance, disability insurance, liability insurance, insurance insurance. The list goes on and on, right?

Joe Baker: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: We all know how important insurance is. And what you need, what you don’t need. And I think really being able to navigate that, understand it, and as you can tell already listening to this interview, this book covers a wide array of topics. Now, one of the areas you spent the most time in the book on — and I think you did a great job — is on the investing side, the long-term savings and really breaking this down, I would say this is probably the biggest section of the book and I’m guessing the area that you’ve had through experience, identified where there’s the most questions or confusion. And so my question to you as you talk about the principle around investing and establishing an investing plan, you know, we talk about these terms all the time: stocks, bonds, mutual funds, 401k’s, 403b, Roth versions of those, IRAs, traditional and the Roth, HSA, REITs, alternative investments, cryptocurrency — you know, the opportunities and the options go on and on. And I think this can be very, very overwhelming. I know it’s overwhelming from personal experience in talking with many of our listeners. So how do you walk the reader through understanding and applying this information on the very important topic of investing in long-term savings?

Joe Baker: Well, first of all, the way I wrote the book is the way I teach class. I make a promise to the students. At the beginning of each semester, I say, “My goal is for you to never say while you’re sitting in my class, you will never say, ‘When am I ever going to use this?’” To me, that’s very important because you and I, we’ve all been there where we’re sitting and say, ‘When will I ever use that?’ So I keep that in mind, and I try to keep it as simple and really what it boils down to — you know, the three-asset class is cash, bonds and stocks. And if you’re only relegated to participating in an employer-sponsored plan, you’ll have 25-35 funds to choose from. So it’s not like the thousands of decisions you’ll have to make. And I place a couple recommendations. I like stock index funds as well as Warren Buffet, as you know, Berkshire Hathaway, that’s one of his favorites. Target date funds are good too. And I try to make it as simple as possible. And I also include several stories in there from contributors and where they have messed up. And you know, I talk a lot about individual stocks. You know, people at parties, they’ll talk about buying an individual company stock. And it is a good conversational piece, but frankly, might as well just do that for fun because your investments and your retirement should come from your employer-sponsored plan. But I do have a section in the book about picking individual stocks and how to do that. So if you want to do it for fun, that’s fine. But the bottom line is I try to keep it as simple as possible. And I do cover all the areas, and hopefully the reader will have the same experience as the students in my class and say, ‘Oh, yeah, I’ll use this one day.’

Tim Ulbrich: And I think you did a nice job, in my opinion, of keeping it simple, what you need to know, what you don’t need to know. And then through the appendices, also providing additional information for those that want to dig a little bit deeper on some of the topics or where there’s a stepwise approach to things like understanding some of the retirement accounts or opening up an IRA but that there’s a core foundation that you provide. And I think it reads, in my opinion, such that you can go cover-to-cover but then it should stay nearby because you’re going to come back to many of these decisions or need a refresher.

Joe Baker: For example, when you leave an employer, which you will. On average, I forgot the millennials, I think they have 7-9 jobs by the time they’re out. So what do you do with your 401k or 403b? I point that. You have four options. And that is in the book. So there’s some things there that are practical that you can look at and a step-by-step process for that.

Tim Ulbrich: And again, we’re just scratching the surface on topics that are also included that we haven’t discussed yet: how to make sure you and your significant other are on the same page, where to look for things that can appreciate and avoid things that depreciate, how to get out of debt, best practices for home buying, for the financial plan. Now Joe, when we package the book and said, ‘OK, is it the book? Are we going to offer some other resources?’ We ultimately landed on that we thought there would be value in essentially an investing mini-course series, videos, 6-7 videos that would take people more in depth into investing. Tell us about what folks can expect to get out of those investing videos — I know you’ve invested a lot of time and effort into doing those — and why we felt like that was an important supplement to the book.

Joe Baker: Well, a shoutout to P3 pharmacy student Jason Lam, he’s helped me with the audio and video portions. And he has pushed me pretty hard. We have done several videos that we’re — I think we’re pretty proud of. The blooper reel should be very interesting, by the way. But I just filmed it, most of the videos are out back by the pool. I’ve got a big whiteboard. I’m old school, I like to show it on the board. And quite frankly, it’s kind of a mini version of what I taught to the students in class. We’ll see how it turns out. We’ve also filmed a little skit for Halloween day, so hopefully people will check that out.

Tim Ulbrich: I’m looking forward to seeing the bloopers. So yeah, I mean, that investing video series is meant to I think present the information in a different way. Obviously they’ll have the text to read but also more of a stepwise approach. And for those that want to dig deeper on the investing topic, I think you’re going to find that video series to be helpful. And that comes with either the premium or premium pro package of the book, which is again available at BakersDirtyDozen.com. Joe, I want to read a couple of the testimonials. We’ve got a lot of people that had great things to say about this book. You know, one here that I want to read comes from Nicki Hilliard, UAMS College of Pharmacy professor, past president of the American Pharmacists Association. And she says, “Joe Baker is a good-natured, all around nice guy that is passionate about helping others. He has graciously taught personal finance at the College of Pharmacy for many years, and it is always the most requested elective course, not just because of the good information but how these lessons are delivered with great stories and insight into the big picture of what is important in life. He has put to paper his life experiences, stories and wisdom to help others lead a happier, less stressful and more fulfilling life through financial management. I highly suggest you put Joe Baker’s Dirty Dozen lessons to work in your own life.” This is just one, and as I read through others in preparation for this episode, there was a theme that I kept seeing over and over again of the influence that your teachings have had on people and how they have been able to directly apply that information to their personal financial plan. You know, one that stuck out to me, Blair Thielemeier mentioned how important the financial principles that you taught were for her in her journey of being able to start her business and the work that she has done and being able to have her own personal financial plan in order, several students commented specifically on actions they took in terms of budgeting, opening up retirement accounts, other things that they did directly as an account of your teaching. So as you hear that out loud, and I know you’re a humble person by nature, but what does that mean to you in terms of the impact this work has had on people over the past 20 years? And what do you hope is the legacy of this book going forward?

Joe Baker: First of all, Nicki was very generous in her review. And I appreciate that. Well, it just gives validation, you know, when I hear students come back and they’ll repeat a story and say what they’re doing, if they paid off $200-something thousand dollars in student loan debt in four years, which one has, and when they tell me that those stories, that just validates why I did this. Financial illiteracy is — you know, you could be a pharmacist, doctor, lawyer, and still be financially illiterate. Just because you’re smart doesn’t mean — or high IQ — doesn’t mean that you know how to control your finances. So it makes me feel good, it’s the reason I do it. It’s a selfish reason because I know that I’m getting feedback and kind of confirmation of what I’m doing is the right path. So that’s what keeps me going at this. This was all — the first I think it was 10 years that I did this, I didn’t even get any pay, so it was — they came to me, the school came to me and says, ‘Hey, we want you to do this both semesters.’ I said, ‘Well, I was thinking I might not do it at all.’ They said, ‘Well, how about if we paid you?’ which wasn’t much. I said, ‘OK, I’ll do it both semesters.’ So anyway — and the way I look at it is it’s an unlimited attendance in my class. It’s tough, but if I can reach one or two people that would have not been in there if we had had a maximum size, then it’s worth it. So that’s almost like an evangelical feel to it, reaching more and more people.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, absolutely. And I know in talking with several of your pupils, you know, and speaking from personal experience, it’s not even just them. Obviously there’s the impact that you will have on them but also the folks that they interact with, that they rub shoulders with, the kids that they’re raising. I mean, this is one of the things we always talk about, hopefully a generational impact you can have in helping people shore up their financial plan to be able to do and achieve the things that they want to do. And ultimately, as you talk about in Baker’s Dirty Dozen Principle No. 13, to be able to have an impact on their communities, on their places of worship, on others, and to be philanthropic as they can do so once they have their own financial house in order. So I know your work has had a great influence on me. I mean that genuinely. I’m confident it’s going to do the same, it has done the same, will continue to do the same, with others. And I’m so glad that you ended up writing this because one of the beauties of a book is that this resource will live on. And it will have an impact, and people will be able to build upon this work, they’ll be able to give feedback on it, and ultimately hopefully be a conversation-starter for many in their own financial plan. So Joe, again, congratulations on the book.

Joe Baker: Thank you.

Tim Ulbrich: Excited to be a small part of this alongside of you in this journey. And again, to our listeners, head on over to BakersDirtyDozen.com. Through November 7, you can use the coupon code BAKER for 15% off. And as always, we appreciate you joining us on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your day.

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