FIRE / Podcast

YFP 354: From PharmD to Debt Free to FIRE with Derek Schwartz, PharmD

Posted on April 11, 2024April 11, 2024 by YFP Media

Derek Schwartz, PharmD, returns to talk about his debt free journey and his path toward FIRE: Financial Independence, Retire Early.

Episode Summary

On this episode, we check back in with Derek Schwartz, PharmD, on his debt free to FIRE journey. Derek was an early guest on the podcast back in 2017 when he was working toward becoming debt free by ambitiously paying off $180,000 in student loan debt.

Today, Derek returns to share a life update after successfully eliminating his student loan debt – from getting married to owning a home to becoming a father of two – Derek explains how he continues to save and view spending and how his journey toward an early retirement evolves as he pursues FIRE. Derek shares encouraging advice for new grads and anyone looking to pay down debt and what it can mean when you are truly financially free.

About Today’s Guest

Derek Schwartz, PharmD, RPh is a 2014 graduate of Ohio Northern University Raabe College of Pharmacy who currently works with the Kroger Company in the Cincinnati, OH area. After graduating in 2014 with over $180,000 in debt, he paid it off in March 2018. Derek and his wife, Jessica, married in October 2020, and have two children: Julia, age 2, and Calvin, 8 months old. The family of four have a happy and busy life in Cincinnati, Ohio.

Key Points from the Episode

Financial independence and retiring early with a guest from 2017. [0:00]
Debt repayment and financial independence with a young family. [2:04]
Budgeting and financial goals with a focus on breathing room and flexibility. [8:46]
Financial Independence and Retire Early (FIRE) journey with Derek Schwartz. [13:13]
Financial independence, debt management, and retirement planning. [17:20]
Retirement planning and debt management. [20:49]
FIRE (Financial Independence Retire Early) journey and determining the FI number. [27:44]
Paying off student loans and saving for the future. [31:49]
Investment advice and updates from a guest. [37:49]

Episode Highlights

“So my debt repayment that it finished was March 30 of 2018. So just in a couple of days, it’s been six years, which is just crazy. Because it’s been so long, it was such a big part of my life. And it’s so far in the distant past, I hardly think about it anymore. And that was always the goal for paying off that debt because it sets up everything else so nicely.” -Derek Schwartz [3:07]

“When you have that much debt, it stops you from saving, it stops you from investing, it stops you from using your income to benefit future savings, having fun, just doing anything.” -Derek Schwartz [5:40]

“Having that much debt and trying to do other things, is like trying to run a marathon without stretching. You’re not gonna get far, you’re not going, you’re gonna get hurt, you’re gonna have to restart, and then you get to go back to square one.” – Derek Schwartz [5:58]

“And once you are completely out of debt, it’s like shutting a book and just tossing out the window. It’s done. You don’t have to go back.” -Derek Schwartz [6:20]

“And that was the motivation for such a rigid budget is I knew exactly when those loans would be paid off. And now it’s completely changed. Because when you’re talking about no debt, what are you saving for? What’s your goal? You can be so much more flexible, when there’s not some restraint of I’m budgeting to get over this, instead of I’m budgeting to get to this.” Derek Schwartz [11:06]

“But it’s just always been a passion for both of us because we have so many more interests that aren’t tied to our jobs. We both love our jobs, we love our work. But, we love other things, too.” -Derek Schwartz [18:28]

“So we’re planning for those to just not be there. And so that’s kind of a, a different way to look at it. Because most people will assume that Social Security will be there, they’ll have some some kind of health insurance. We’re looking at it as, hey, if we retire at 50, on our own, can we do it?” -Derek Schwartz [22:50]

“And that’s, that’s such the nice thing about being in the FIRE mindset of, first of all, being in the FIRE mindset, you’re out of debt. And then secondly, how can we use factors around us to benefit us. And that’s something you can’t do when you have when you have a lot of debt, and you don’t have the the FIRE mindset if you’ve already been saving.” -Derek Schwartz [26:45]

“So, and we couldn’t do that without being out of debt. I keep going back to getting out of debt. But that’s just so important because it just allows you to be on that platform to just do so many different things with what you want to do with your money.” – Derek Schwartz [34:22]

“Paying off debt is not fun. It is not glamorous, it is not full of constant rewards. You’re not doing a lot of things; you’re just watching a number go down. And that’s all it’s doing. But once you get out and pass through that, your options just expand so much.” – Derek Schwartz [36:18]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I welcome back Derek Schwartz, a guest from episode 14 way back in 2017 to share his journey from PharmD to debt free to pursuing financial independence/retire early. We discuss why he and his family are on the fire path, how his financial decisions, post-graduation helped put them on a path towards building wealth, the biggest challenges that they’re facing in pursuit of fire, and how he striking the balance between living a rich life today and saving for the future.

Now, before we jump into the show, I have a question for you. Have you ever wondered how to evaluate the benefits package and offer you receive once you’ve landed the job? If so, our upcoming webinar supported by APHA is for you. On Wednesday, April 17, at 8:30pm. Eastern my partner in crime YFP, Co-Founder and Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker is hosting a free webinar titled: Money Moves: How to Evaluate Benefits Packages and Job Offers. During this webinar, Tim will dig into the valuable connection between career and finance and the ins and outs of benefit packages and offers. He’ll teach you how to navigate components of employer benefits, including insurance, FSA, HSAs, employer sponsored retirement accounts, as well as help you understand components of a job offer and how to evaluate one. Plus, Tim is going to do a live walkthrough and evaluation of real pharmacist job offers from you, the YFP community. So send us your pharmacist job offer current or past to [email protected] with the subject line: job offer. Don’t worry, we’ll keep these anonymous. And if you attend live, you’ll have the chance to win a $50 Amazon gift card or YFP bundle which includes a YFP t-shirt and our four books published at YFP. To save your seat and to register visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/offer. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/offer.

Alright, let’s jump in my interview with Derek Schwartz.

Tim Ulbrich 02:02

Derek, welcome back to the show.

Derek Schwartz 02:04

Great to see you again.

Tim Ulbrich 02:06

So excited to have you back. This has been a while in the making. For our community to know we had Derek on way back when, nearly seven years ago at this point, Episode 14, September 2017. We talked about your journey – graduated from Ohio Northern University in 2014. Go Polar Bears!

Tim Ulbrich 02:23

You were paying off $180,000 of debt in just about four years. That was 2018 when you guys finished that debt repayment journey. We’ll link to that episode in the show notes so folks can go back. And we’re going to talk a little bit more about that. But really focus on your journey now and where you’re at present day and how you and your family are on this path towards financial independence. So Derek, since it’s been such a while, 2017 what what’s changed since since we last spoke?

Derek Schwartz 02:23

Go Polar Bears!

Derek Schwartz 02:51

Man, what hasn’t changed? So when we recorded the podcast, and I begrudgingly listened to it. So I think I join everyone that they don’t like to hear themselves talk. So I, I struggled through that I had not paid off my debt when I recorded that. So my debt repayment that it finished was March 30 of 2018. So just in a couple of days, it’s been six years, which is just crazy. Because it’s it’s been so long, it was such a big part of my life. And it’s so far in the distant past, I hardly think about it anymore. And that was always the goal for paying off that debt because it sets up everything else so nicely. So you know, it’s a typical story, you know, you, you meet someone, you get engaged, and my wife and I got engaged in January of 2020. And I was like, you know, this is gonna be a great year. Nothing bad’s gonna happen in 2020. It’s gonna be smooth sailing from here, as everyone knows, wasn’t the case. But it was an opportunity for us to buy our future home, we moved into a good part of town where we wanted to raise kids, and then we started the family. So we have two kids. I have a two year old daughter and an almost an eight month old son. So things have been great so far.

Tim Ulbrich 04:13

That’s a lot in a short period of time, as we often see, with new practitioners coming out, you know, you’ve been out now a decade coming up here, right this spring, but you know, you graduate, start your first job, get married, you’ve got a couple of kids, pay off your loans. I mean, just a lot that happens and one of the things I was sharing with you before we hit record, which I think is a great example here, Derek and the work that you and your family have done is you know the decisions we make in that first five to seven years is the window I often talk about this transition right from student to new practitioner, really is so critical to setting the foundation upon which we can build and we’re going to talk about how now you guys are on this path towards financial independence, which I presume is probably not possible or possible to the degree that it is. If you didn’t work hard to put some of those rocks in place some of the foundational pieces in place early on in your journey. And so, you know, again, we’ll link back to that episode so people can hear the details of that debt free journey, but just remind us of the motivation, the why behind a pretty aggressive debt repayment $180,000, about four years. Everyone’s on their own journey, everyone feels different about their debt. But for you guys, obviously, it was in a decision to be intentional about paying it off in a short period of time, which again, has led to the place that you’re in today, why why was that such an important piece of the plan for you guys to get out of that debt as quickly as possible?

Derek Schwartz 05:40

I think it was, because there was no other option. When you have that much debt, it stops you from saving, it stops you from investing, it stops you from using your income to benefit future savings, having fun, just doing anything. Having that much debt and trying to do other things, is like trying to run a marathon without stretching. You’re not gonna get far, you’re not going, you’re gonna get hurt, you’re gonna have to restart, and then you get to go back to square one. So the goal of getting out of debt was just to get past that. So that options, were actually on the table that were available. And once you are completely out of debt, it’s like shutting a book and just tossing out the window. It’s done. You don’t have to go back.

Tim Ulbrich 06:27

Yeah, and I think, you know, I often shared Derek that when I think back to my journey, Jess, and I have paid off a couple $100,000 of debt and making every mistake you can make along the way. You know, it was really when our kid most of that journey was before we had kids and the end of that journey. Our kids were very young. But I now think about that monthly payment, right that we were making, which was pretty aggressive at the time. And basically, as I now see the expenses with kids rising, right, which is natural, you know, I’ve got some older, older boys that are starting to eat us out of the house. But you know, for other people, it’s daycare, right? It’s other costs, it’s saving for kids college. But the point being that, you know, that payment that I think of that we’re making towards their student loans, you can pretty much just put that money over to expenses, right, that are associated now with having young children that weren’t there before. And for us, I know, personally, it would be a burden currently if we were still trying to work through those payments, while other expenses were rising. Does that resonate as you guys are, you know, obviously, growing a young family, you know, having that margin through having that debt paid off has allowed you to really have have some more flexibility as naturally expenses will rise as you have young children.

Derek Schwartz 07:37

Yeah, for sure. And we we started with our daughter in daycare. And we quickly learned that wasn’t for us. We were getting a lot of sick calls, we had to go in, bring her home, my wife and I both worked full time. And we were seemed to be a some of us, one of us is going to have to work part time to have to get around daycare. So we’ve hired a nanny, which was the best decision that we made. And, you know, we couldn’t afford that with student loan payments, we couldn’t afford that with a credit card payment or a car loan, or anything that, you know, requires a monthly payment like that. So it’s the setup to getting flexible with the budget has to start with being in a position where you can be flexible. And without any, like debt that’s just holding you down. That flexibility is just gone. So it limits your options. And we don’t want to have to, you know, talk about every single transaction that we do, where we buy something. Like hey, can we afford to have a date night? We don’t have to have that discussion because we don’t have, you know, all these loans and like this massive budget that we have to worry about. We still budget, but that’s in the budget, so you don’t have to think about it.

Tim Ulbrich 08:52

Yeah, yeah, what I hear there, Derek, is breathing room, right? You’ve used the word options, flexibility a couple of times already. But when you have breathing room, we underestimate the mental space and clarity that can come from that. And, you know, I think you can probably appreciate this working on this topic together with your spouse, like a lack of breathing room, a lack of margin is a recipe for stress and arguments. And you know, not not being on the same page financially. Right. So creating that breathing room, which we know is easier said than done. We look at today’s graduates are coming out with $150- $200,000 of debt. You know, you and I were fortunate to not necessarily be buying a home where home prices are in 2024 and interest rates. There are headwinds, right that today’s graduates are facing that are real. And unfortunately, those eat into that breathing room, they eat into that margin, but we know when we can create that breathing room and space. We have options. We have flexibility, you know, we’re able to really progress and move forward with the financial plan and play offense instead of constantly being on our heels playing defense. I do want to poke for a moment on the budget because I think that’s something that, you know, when I talk about budgeting, you know, to a group of pharmacists, you know everyone again is on their own journey, but I often see the look of like, like, do I have to right? Do I have to track? Do I have to do these things? And I tried to reframe the budget as being the really the mechanism by which we’re achieving our financial goals. Now, how detailed do you want to get is up to you. Whatever works for you, and everyone, again, is going to be different. But if we reframe it, that the budget, the spending plan, the system, whatever you want to call it, is simply the execution plan for achieving our goals, I think we can get behind that a little bit more. And you made a comment that, hey, we’re, we’re budgeting, but we’re maybe not tracking things at the granular level of hey, can we go on a date night tonight or not? And is the budget $20 or $30, or whatever that number is. So tell us about what your budgeting system looks like right now. And maybe how that’s evolved over time.

Derek Schwartz 10:46

Yeah, the budget before when I had debt was so rigid, because I knew exactly how much I was making. I knew exactly how much was going to, at the time was living in an apartment. So rent utilities. And it was a very locked in number. And that’s what it was going to be every month. And that was the number that would, that would knock down that debt. And that was the motivation for such a rigid budget is I knew exactly when those loans would be paid off. And now it’s completely changed. Because when you’re talking about no debt, what are you saving for? What’s your goal? You can be so much more flexible, when there’s not some restraint of I’m budgeting to get over this, instead of I’m budgeting to get to this. And when you’re budgeting to just have that independence that you want in your life financially, you can be so flexible with it. And my wife and I, before we had kids, we were saving a ton of money, I want to say at least 40 to 50% of our income, we were saving that. Because we were in a position where we’re like, hey, we want to have kids. So we know the timeline that we want to be on, we wanted to have a couple of kids we wanted to family, we knew it was going to be in a couple years. So we’re like, you know what, let’s just save for the next couple years, and then put ourselves in a position. So we just saved super aggressively. And then when the kids came and expenses come up, and you you dial that budget back, it doesn’t hurt as much because you’re still saving. And when you’re so aggressive to start, it’s so much easier to for it to be malleable, just mold it what you needed to be. And then we then look forward to having goals of hey, we can we can get that back to where we want it once kids are in school. And once you have less expenses, because they’re both we had two under two for quite a long time and not only was financially stressful, just in general stressful. And it we we see where it can get back to and that’s the motivation now.

Tim Ulbrich 12:46

Yeah, and I think Derek, one things you share that resonates with me is because of your early aggressive savings, we’ll talk about more of that here in a little bit with your FIRE journey. You know, that gives you some permission to say, Hey, this is a season we’re in. This is a season of expenses, you know, may not be forever, it’s gonna look different in a few years. You mentioned that already. But let’s say the opposite was true. Let’s say you guys didn’t save it all in the first five, seven, now 10 years, a decade coming up on graduation. That’s another layer of stress, right? Because, hey, we’ve now got rising expenses. And we feel like we need to play catch up. And because you saved early in the journey, there probably isn’t that nagging feeling of hey, we’ve got to catch up. Right. So again, breathing room, and margin. So our theme for today is PharmD to Debt Free to FIRE. So again, graduated 2014 Debt free journey – paid off those student loans in 2018. Now you’re really on this path and evolution towards building wealth and towards financial independence. We’ve talked about FIRE on the podcast many times, we’ve got a lot of resources on their website, if that term is new to those listening: Financial Independence, Retire Early. So we’re going to spend a bulk of our interview talking through that with Derek what what does that mean to him? Where is he at? And the journey? Why are they on the fire journey? And what has that looked like practically for them and their family? So, Derek, let me start there. It seems that the the term FIRE while there’s formulas, calculations, all these things about how we can determine what our FI number is, I recognize that can mean something different to everyone. So what does FIRE mean to you and to your family?

Derek Schwartz 14:18

For us, it just means that we retire on our own terms. We both had the goal of retiring when we were 50. That’s the goal. And because I love my wife, I will not say how old she is on a podcast. I am 34. That means I want to retire in 16 years. By the time I’m 50, we are done working and we want to pursue other interests. The nice thing about being on this FIRE journey and being aggressive with saving when we did is with two kids, we looked at each other we’re like, hey, this might be 55 now. that’s still really early. Hey, we might push it back to like, you know, 57-58. Maybe 60, we work part time that’s still early. The the financial independence side of the FIRE to us just means, hey, we’re on our own terms. If we want to pursue other interests, we can do that if we want to, you know, scale back how much we’re working, we can do that. If we want to explore other interests that can make us money, we can do that and just leave our professions that we have behind. But once we get to that point, we’ll know that we’re covered financially. And then you know, the sky, the sky’s the limit from there where we can, you know, instead of diversifying your your money, where it’s going, diversify your interests and see what you know, what calls for you.

Tim Ulbrich 15:40

Yeah, what I really hear there, Derek is options and opportunities that you could pursue, and it might be one of many different pathways. Maybe you decide to work part time, maybe you don’t, maybe decide to travel a bunch, you know, maybe there’s grandkids at that point in the future, and you want to have the flexibility of time, like, you know, maybe it’s something that you’re not even thinking about at this point, whether it’s volunteering, and you know, there’s a ton of different things that could be, but having the option to, right, that that is what really resonates with me when people talk about financial independence, regardless of what the number is, or what the age is, is, you know, maybe it’s retire early, maybe it’s not. But there’s options to pursue A, B, C, D E. I talked with somebody recently on the FIRE journey, I guess, we’ve had on the podcast before Corey Jenks. And he gave an example of, you know, I think he referenced like walking into a sporting goods store or another type of business. And he was like, Oh, that’s interesting. Like, maybe someday I just would want to try to work at one of these and kind of see what it’s like. And when you’re on an FI pathway, like, those are the kinds of things that you can, quote, take a risk on or roll the dice and say, oh, this would be interesting to do for, you know, six or 12 months, whatever that might be. So I love what you’re sharing there. One of the barriers I often see, Derek is two individuals getting on the same page, not just in general with their finance. But here’s we’re talking about with FIRE. And you know, often you might have one person who’s gung ho, let’s go. And maybe they even started the FIRE journey before they met their significant other, spouse or partner. So my question for you is, have you guys always been on the same page? Has this been an evolution, it sounds like you’re very much in the shared vision of 50, or 55-57. Whatever that age is. Tell us more about how you’ve been able to work together and get on the same page.

Derek Schwartz 17:25

Yeah, I’m, I am so blessed to have my wife. Because on our first date, we talked about just being financially independent, that was just such a goal for both of us. Probably weirded out a lot of people were sitting by at the restaurant we were at. But that was just a goal for both of us. She was debt free when I met her, she owned her own home, she wanted to get into real estate, she was already on that path I had, you know, my path is so much different from hers, because I had all this debt I had to pay off that she still had some, but she had paid it off years before I met her. So we were on the same journey of getting to financial independence. But we started completely different areas, and we just happen to meet at the time where, you know, I was ready to start saving at the level that we wanted to. So at the time we met, I was talking about, you know, buying my first home, eventually, we as we dated, I kind of weaseled my way into her house, decided to just live there and pay her rent and then we got married from there. But it’s just always been a passion for both of us because we have so many more interests that aren’t tied to our jobs. We both love our jobs, we love our work. But, we love other things, too. And part of that is with our kids, we want them to be also financially independent. And that’s you can’t do you can’t preach that you’re not doing it. And that’s just that’s really that’s a hard place to be in of you know, teaching discipline with your kids and teaching, you know, financial independence and you know, being your own person and not you just you know, having so much debt that you can’t, you know, do the goals that you want to do.

Tim Ulbrich 19:10

Yeah, and I appreciate the perspective you have on that Derek and I know you’ve got young ones you mentioned the the ages a little while ago. One of the things I’m appreciate with my boys, my oldest now going to be 13 in the summer, as they are observing and picking up on things way younger, you know, then you would think. Sure, they might not be able to articulate it. But there is definitely a culture in the house around money. They become very aware of how individuals are talking about money. Is it you know, fearful? Is it stressful? Is it an open conversation? Is it a closed conversation? And we’re gonna be talking more about that on the podcast here in the future about kids and money. It’s a really, really important topic. But you know, I think just a note of encouragement to parents out there like hey, we’re not going to get it right all the time. I haven’t gotten it right. Jess and I haven’t gotten it right all the time. But, you know, really being cognizant and aware of the dialogue, the culture, the tenor, the tone of what’s happening financially in the household. I think it’s so important. Derek, you mentioned 50. And I heard that evolve 53, 55, 57. You know, when I hear that age, often an objection that will come up is, well, how are we actually going to be able to fund that, right? You know, we’re not yet at Social Security age, you know, maybe we’ve got dollars that are tied up predominantly in traditional retirement accounts, 401k, 403B’s, IRAs can’t access those to 59 and a half without penalty. You know, so then becomes this question of, well, how do we actually produce a paycheck when we’re at an early retirement age, and of course, all the fears that may come of hey, we’re gonna run out of money too early, and where we need health insurance benefits. Talk to us about how you guys are thinking about that, while still a ways away. I’m sure it’s something that’s been on your mind.

Derek Schwartz 20:49

Yeah, that’s, that’s something that we, that one of the first things we talked about as, hey, if we retire at 50, what do we do? So we have different accounts that, you know, you can’t touch certain retirement accounts until a certain age, we also have taxable accounts that we can dip into. We have money that’s set aside just in savings that we can get to at anytime. By that time, we we have a 15 year mortgage, so our house would be paid for. So it’s kind of just like leveling with what do we have to anticipate paying for? What to what accounts can we get into what can’t we get into? What does that mean for hey, if we retire at 50, are we actually retired? Can we do all the things we want? Or do we have to kind of like, play it slow a little bit until we can get into into some more taxable accounts that we’re holding on to? And, you know, it’s flexible. And we’d rather have that conversation to 50, than than 70, or 75. So it’s kind of a non answer, it’s almost a we’ll see when we get to it. And that’s why it’s so nice, just for it to be so flexible, because we don’t know, you know, what that looks like at 50. And then, you know, if, like, we have to say, hey, we’re gonna work till 55 now, that’s not a big deal. And that might not even be a full time at that point. That might just be like, you know, hey, we’re both working part time both our kids are, you know, 18, maybe out of the house and college, maybe they’re doing their own thing, you know, and we can downsize our house, there’s a lot of options that you can have. So, another thing that we look at is, instead of saying, hey, at 50, what do we do? We’d rather do that and say, hey, we’re, we got to 65, Social Security is not there. Hey, we’re not getting the health insurance we thought we’d get because you don’t know what things are going to be. And with all those variables that are so many are out of your control that you don’t know. So we’re planning for those to just not be there. And so that’s kind of a, a different way to look at it. Because most people will assume that Social Security will be there, they’ll have some some kind of health insurance. We’re looking at it as, hey, if we retire at 50, on our own, can we do it? And we think we’re on track to do that. But if we have to push it, we can push it.

Tim Ulbrich 23:12

Yeah. And what I hear there, Derek, is being comfortable with the uncomfortable and the unknowns, but not necessarily just kind of put your hands up and saying, hey, there’s not planning that can be done, right. You mentioned several variables, assumptions that any one of those can change, some of them will change, some of them may be better than you thought, worse than you thought. So there’s planning that needs to be done. And we so often talk about the accumulation phase. Right. But we don’t often talk about the de-cumulation phase. Whether that’s early retirement or not, you’re gonna have several of these buckets of assets, right? You mentioned brokerage accounts, you mentioned traditional accounts, you’ve obviously got your home, that will be an asset, perhaps there’s real estate now or in the future. I mean, you’re gonna have all these different buckets, maybe there’s social security involved. And it’s a matter and function of okay, well, for 55. Where are we drawing from those? And how do we do that in a tax efficient way? And how do we make sure that we’re optimizing which buckets we’re drawing from, and essentially, what we have to do is, you know, our working career, we work and we get a paycheck, right? Well, when we’re not working, or working part time, and we need to fill up the rest of that income bucket, we have to produce our own paycheck in retirement, whether that’s early or not. And I think there’s so many nuances and planning opportunities there that we just don’t talk enough about how do we actually produce that retirement paycheck? You mentioned 15 year mortgage. I want to talk about that for a moment. Because, you know, obviously, you’re, you’re a math guy, you’re on the FI journey. And, you know, there’s this debate that’s always ongoing of 15 versus 30. Year and what’s the opportunity cost and, you know, getting out of debt and versus carrying a low interest rate debt for a longer term. As you’re someone who’s looking at an aggressive savings rate, you know, an argument could be made potentially that hey, anything you’re paying on a 15 year that you could, you know, have paid on a 30 year or lesser amount than you could have invested the difference. You know, obviously there’s an opportunity there to way of paying down the debt versus investing for the for future, the most common question we get, hey, should I be paying down my debt? Should I be investing? How did you think through that process of, hey, let’s make a higher monthly mortgage payment. And therefore, you know that that is money that could have potentially been invested versus maybe you did decide to take out a 30 year, and it’s a lower amount, but you’re able to invest more talk us through that.

Derek Schwartz 25:20

Yeah, that’s an interesting story, because we bought her home in the summer of 2020. And taking, taking some time to look back on that time in the mortgage arena, we got a 3% fixed interest rate. You’re not getting that anytime soon, anywhere else. So we made the decision of hey, like, this is an interest rate that it’s basically non-existent. 3% it’s is absurd, and especially in today’s market. So a 15 year mortgage, that’s not really that much of a difference between a 30 year and then you also you still have something like wiggle room to, you know, take some money on the home, and do that sort of things. And it’s funny, what do we do that now, probably not. It would probably be a 30 year, if we were to move and buy a new home. It would probably be a 30 year mortgage. And it’s just interesting, because when you’re out of debt, you look at different ways to I don’t want to say manipulate what you’re doing with your money, but to just kind of be flexible with it, is that instead of saying, Hey, we have to, you know, think of a different way we’re paying on our home, we might have to think of a different differently. We think of it in a way of, you know, how can we take advantage of the situation that we put ourselves in, we were both out of debt, we bought our home? How can we make this situation benefit us? And that’s, that’s such the nice thing about being in the FIRE mindset of, first of all, being in the FIRE mindset, you’re out of debt. And then secondly, how can we use factors around us to benefit us. And that’s something you can’t do when you have when you have a lot of debt, and you don’t have the the FIRE mindset if you’ve already been saving. And that’s not a realistic expectation for people right now. But if you set yourself up to be in a position where you want to be FIRE, and you want to be really aggressive retiring, that is a situation that anyone can easily be in.

Tim Ulbrich 27:24

Yeah, I appreciate that. And I presented the question as a dichotomous variable of hey, you could have either taken out debt longer invest that, of course, it’s not that simple. And one of the variables that’s unique to you guys, is you did aggressively save early on. So there already was that that base of savings. You know, if someone isn’t in that position, and they’re weighing, you know, should I be taken out a longer term mortgage or shorter term? And where am I investing? The question they have to factor in, among many others is, am I on track? Am I ahead? Am I behind? And, you know, certainly that will, will change the equation, how we look at that, as well. When you guys came up with your FI number, I’m curious to hear more about how you determine what this is and how you evaluate this on an ongoing basis, you know, in the FI community, which you’re more plugged in than I am, but there’s everything from back of napkin, you know, rule 25: take your total annual expenses, including taxes multiplied by 25. That’s based on the 4% rule. We’ve talked about that on the show before. And then there’s, you know, much more nuanced calculators that are out there and available. So tell us more about how you guys have evaluated what your FI number is?

Derek Schwartz 28:28

Yeah, we’re much less we’re not even that nuanced. We just, we pick a number, hey, 50, what do we need to do to get there? And that wasn’t a let’s calculate what we have what we’re saving it, plug it into something. And that’s what the number comes up. We started our FIRe journey being like, it’s going to be 50. What do we need to do to get there? And I think, looking at that way, it simplifies it a lot more, because you look at it from a perspective of, if that’s the goal, all right, um, when we started, that was a couple years ago, so it was like 18 years to 50. What are we doing in the next 18 years to get there? And at that point, we didn’t have kids, and then kids come, and we’re like, alright, 50 might not be possible. We went to push it, but 50 it still could be possible. What can we what can we cut back on a little bit to get there? So I think that’s such a nice thing about FIRE is that, you know, it, it’s so adaptable to what you want to do. You can it can be 55, it can be 60. It can just be an unknown age, where you just you have your, your budget, you look at it, you look at what you’re saving, and you’re like, yeah, we can just do it now. And then just start your, you know, FIRE journey from there. Yeah, an important thing and for those that are new on this FIRE journey, what you’ll quickly realize is you start to run numbers is your annual expenses is, is really the factor that’s going to drive this equation the most both in terms of what you need, right? Because your projected need is based off of what you’re going to have to potentially draw. So if you have two pharmacists, let’s say both making $125,000, one is able to live off of 50% of their income, one’s able to live off of 80% of their income, their FI numbers are going to be very, very different. And thus, their savings rates are going to be very different because of the percentage of their income, right, that’s available and able to say, so easier said than done. You know, we know that pharmacists cost of living, individual situations, but you see this on the regular where you know, someone who’s able to really drive down cost of living expenses. And there’s a balance here that we have to factor in, versus someone that is not able to for whatever reason, those numbers of what that FI number is going to be in the timeline to get there are going to be drastically different for sure. Derek, one of things we talk a lot about on this show is we firmly believe from personal experience and working with hundreds of pharmacists, one-on-one on this topic that a good financial plan, it’s a marathon, it’s not a sprint, we really have to be striking this balance between, yes, we have to be ready for the future. Yes, we have to take care of our future selves. But we also have to be making sure we’re prioritizing living a rich life today. And we tend to think about these on one end of the spectrum or the other. Right, there’s some that we see are very, very aggressive savers. But aren’t necessarily comfortable with spending in any capacity. And then there, of course, is the opposite end of the equation as well. How have you guys been able to, especially with a young family, strike this balance between, hey, we need to continue to push forward with getting our FI number. And whatever that age and goal is, but also like, hey, this is a season in a phase of life, that we also want to make sure that we’re living a rich life, we know that eventually this season will pass as well.

Derek Schwartz 31:49

Yeah, that’s, it’s always something when you have kids, everything changes. And you know, everyone’s gonna tell you that you don’t believe it until you’re in it. And that’s something that, you know, you want to enrich your kids lives with different experiences and do things. And, you know, we’ve talked about, hey, we could take them to Disney World, we can take them on a nice vacation, we could also go to a national park. There’s a different cost difference with those, especially if you can like drive to one. We live in Cincinnati so we’re close to Mammoth Cave systems, Red River Gorge in Kentucky, it’s a really nice places that you know, the kids will enjoy. And that’s a big cost savings as opposed to like a more expensive vacation like Disney. Nothing against Disney, my daughter loves frozen, she will eventually go. But that’s something that right now with, we have more expenses, because we have two very young kids, we have a nanny that we’re paying for. Once they’re older, and they’re in school, we don’t have the the nanny costs, some of that costs goes towards maybe a new car fund, maybe that goes to vacation funds. So we can do like a yearly vacation somewhere nice. That goes back into retirements, and it just kind of like just kind of morphs, it’s kind of like a primordial soup of just the funds are there. They’re being used for this, they’re being used for that. What can we do now to make sure that, hey, when the time is right, we can afford that vacation, we can afford to take them on, like really, you know, fun, like family trips to like Disney. And right now that looks like you know, more affordable options, we take them to the Cincinnati kids museum, which is a great place for kids, we take them the national parks. And those are so much more affordable and fit within our current FIRE budget without, you know, just sitting at home and not doing anything. So it’s, it’s in terms of what you do with family enrichment, it depends on what you want to do, how much you’re paying now for expenses that won’t be there. And for us, we have expenses of a nanny that won’t be there for too long. It’s going to be here for a couple of years. But then after that, it’s like okay, we’re gonna go back to saving more aggressively. How about we also save aggressively for a nice trip, How about we save aggressively for, you know, programs that we want our kids in? So, and we couldn’t do that without being out of debt. I keep going back to getting out of debt. But that’s just so important because it just allows you to be on that platform to just do so many different things with what you want to do with your money.

Tim Ulbrich 34:37

Great stuff. My last question for you, Derek, is you know, for the for the students or new grads that might be listening. They’re saying, Derek, this is great. But dot dot, dot, I’ve got $175,000 of debt. I’m trying to purchase a house in this housing environment where costs are crazy. Interest rates are crazy. And I feel like there’s not a whole lot of margin and sure, maybe I’d like to pursue a FIRE journey. But at a minimum, I’d like to just build a good foundation and make sure that I’ve got a solid plan. What advice would you have for new grads coming out today in 2024? As you look back now 10 years ago, just a different space that we’re in. What are your thoughts for those new grads coming out today?

Derek Schwartz 35:17

Yeah, it’s, you have to realize what goals you want to accomplish first. Some people want to own a home. I’m not going to tell people to not buy a house. Some people want to start a family and never going to tell people to not have a family. When you have a lot of debt, and unfortunately, with a lot of pharmacists, pharmacy students coming out, the grads and some people do residencies, where they’re not making their like full salary yet. It’s hard to say to someone, hey, you know, you got to really get on that debt and get that down. From what I saw, when I started my journey of paying off my debt, I was working with a lot of older pharmacists, that when I was in my like, early 20s, and a lot of them were like, hey, if I was, if I could go back 30 years be in your shoes, I would do exactly what you’re doing. And that’s the affirmation that I needed that I was on the right path, because it wasn’t fun. Paying off debt is not fun. It is it is not glamorous, it is not full of constant rewards, you’re not doing a lot of things, you’re just watching a number go down. And that’s all it’s doing. But once you get out and pass through that, your options just expanded so much. And there are some people that you know, graduate, they already have a family, they already have a house. That requires you know, a sit down with your spouse, your partner, and talking about a budget of hey, you know, how can we get this down? How can we get to where we need to go? Yeah, and the first step that I would encourage is to budget and figure out a number of like, when is the realistic goal we can pay it off? And I think figuring that number out, for some people might be longer than they thought it would. And that’s a really important step is to figure out, look at all of our expenses, maybe you have a mortgage, you have the expense of kids, you’re thinking, hey, you know, we can knock this student loan down in a couple of years. It’s actually like 10. Do you want to wait 10 years to pay that off? Or what can you do now to like, chip that number down to five? What can you do to chip it down to six? And then those you know, four or five years you save of not being you know, chained down with your student loans, it can be really reassuring, kind of a kick to get into gear, to get some stuff done.

Tim Ulbrich 37:49

Great stuff there. This has been a joy to reconnect and hear your story. Hear where you’re at seven years later. Hear how the foundation you built early. You’re seeing the fruit of that now and I think there’s only more fruit to come. So thank you so much for taking time to come on the show and to give us an update where you’re at.

Derek Schwartz 38:06

Great to be back.

Tim Ulbrich 38:07

[DISCLAIMER] As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 340: YFP Podcast Replay – How to Teach Your Kids About Money and Investing

Posted on December 28, 2023December 26, 2023 by YFP Media

Dylin Redling and Allison Tom discuss their journey to FIRE and their book for kids on investing and personal finance, sharing practical advice and tips.

Episode Summary

On this episode Tim Ulbrich welcomes Dylin Redling and Allison Tom, creators of Retireby45.com and authors of two books, Start Your F.I.R.E. (Financial Independence Retire Early): A Modern Guide to Early Retirement and Investing for Kids: How to Save, Invest and Grow Money. Dylin and Allison achieved ‘financial independence retire early’ status in 2015 when they were in their early 40’s. Have you ever thought to yourself, I wish I had learned more about the topic of personal finance sooner? If so, that’s exactly what today’s show is all about as Tim interviews Dylin and Allison about their work with their book, Investing for Kids. They discuss practical advice and meaningful activities to help with teaching kids about money and investing.

About Today’s Guests

Dylin Redling and Allison Tom are a married couple living in Oakland, California. After working for 17 years in the tech industry in San Francisco, they left the workforce in January 2015 and never went back.

They own and operate the website RetireBy45.com, which provides inspiration, tips, and resources for achieving FIRE (Financial Independence / Retiring Early) and making the most of the FIRE lifestyle. In 2020, they wrote and published two books: “Start Your FIRE: A Modern Guide to Early Retirement” and the best-selling “Investing for Kids.”

They love food, fitness, and travel. Their goal of “60 by 60” is to visit 60 countries by the age of 60.

Key Points from the Episode

Learn about Dylin and Allison’s book for kids ages 8-12 called, “Investing for Kids: How to Save, Invest, and Grow Money”
Dylin and Allison’s first book was “Start Your FIRE: A Modern Guide to Early Retirement”
Their book for kids is easy to understand with lots of activities and lead by the colorful characters called the Dollar Duo: Mr. Finance and Investing Woman
Career paths and choices led Allison and Dylin to live in the Bay Area of California
When Dylin had pneumonia and was in the ICU for many days, the couple began to ask themselves, “Do we want to work for 25 more year?”
Dylin’s pneumonia experience along with changes in their careers led them to pursue with FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early) journey
Because they are passionate about learning about personal finance, they felt inspired to reach a younger audience
Dylin and Allison believe it is important to have a healthy respect for money, even in the age of digital currency
They hope their book can be read with an adult so that it can lead to good conversations about personal finance
Good finances early on can put you in a good position to be in control of future opportunities

Episode Highlights

“So there are plenty of ways to cut costs in your life that are relatively painless, that we’ve talked about all the time, so there are just different ways to do it to achieve FIRE. And some people don’t even choose to do the early retiring like my father is the example. So retirement is really more of the optional part. We’re not saying you have to retire, you have to leave your job and just sit around drinking mojitos all day long, although it’s certainly not a bad lifestyle. But you know, the retiring part is up to the individual. “ – Allison Tom

“So we love our FIRE lifestyle and the fact that we left our W2 jobs in our 40s, but we know it’s not for everybody. But what we do also know is that the concepts of Financial Independence are good for anybody, no matter when you might want to retire. And those concepts are really about doing the right thing with your money. So it starts with saving, it starts with being somewhat frugal — and when we say frugal, we don’t mean living a spartan lifestyle. We just mean not going crazy with money with spending on things that you don’t want or that you don’t need or you feel like you have to keep up with the Joneses and get a brand new SUV every two years.” – Dylin Redling

“I got to college, and then I had my first credit card that I just — oof. It was bad. I did not understand the concept of paying credit cards and interest rates and late fees and minimum payments. And so, you know, I got in trouble with credit cards after I graduated. And it wasn’t until after that that I thought, oh, I really need to learn more about what’s going on here. And so I started watching some shows on PBS, but by then, you know, I’m in my early 20s at that point. My learning took a lot longer for the habits to become engrained in me. So you know, I really do think that if kids could see this stuff earlier, it would be so much more impactful.” –Allison Tom

“That’s the beauty of the time being yours is you can make it whatever you want to do. We also do a lot more work with our community that we never had time to do when we were working. So we’re a lot more invested in our neighborhood, and we spend more time working with businesses in our neighborhood to bring in more business. So having that luxury of time means you can go explore whatever interests pop up.” – Allison Tom

“And so as the educators come up with their curriculum, I think honestly, a lot of adults are really intimidated by personal finance. And so it’s something that seems easy enough for them to cut out of the education system as an elective because well, if they don’t understand it, then kids aren’t going to understand it. And if they’re intimidated by it, then kids are definitely going to not understand it and be intimidated by it, so let’s not even talk about it, which actually is one of the reasons why we thought it was important to write the book.” – Allison Tom

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

(INTRO)

Tim Ulbrich: Dylin and Allison, welcome to the show.

Allison Tom: Thanks for having us.

Dylin Redling: Thank you very much. Great to be here.

Tim Ulbrich: I’ve very much been looking forward to this interview to talk more about your story achieving financial independence and early retirement and more specifically, the work that the two of you did in writing “Investing for Kids: How to Save, Invest, and Grow Money.” And Dylin, let’s start with you only because we share an Ohio State connection since you’re an alum so go Bucks. Why write a book specifically designed for kids about investing? What was the motivation behind your work?

Dylin Redling: Yeah, well, first of all, go Buckeyes. Yes, a great connection there. It’s interesting because I’ll start off with the interesting fact that Allison and I actually don’t have kids. And so you would think that the impetus would have been we had our own kids and we taught them financial literacy and it inspired us to teach more kids. But in fact, we sort of stumbled into this book. This is our second book. Our first book is called, “Start Your FIRE: A Modern Guide to Early Retirement.” And it’s all about early retirement and financial independence, which that book just poured right out of us because it’s something that we live and we know very well. And what happened was the publisher who we worked with on that book came back to us a couple months after that book was published and said, “Hey, we have an idea for this other book. And it’s investing for kids ages 8-12. And what do you guys think because you know about investing and financial concepts, and we think you guys might be able to pull this off.” And we thought, wow, we don’t have kids, we’re not teachers, we don’t hang out with kids. We have a few friends with kids, but we don’t spend a lot of time with them. And so we thought, man, this sounds really challenging and daunting. But it was during the 2020 year of COVID, so we had a lot of time on our hands. So we thought, let’s just go for it. And we dove into it, and it was very challenging because we wanted it to be interesting for kids and informative and fun but somehow, we put our heads together and we had a really good editing team that helped us with some of the concepts to relate to kids. And that’s — and we just dove into it and we just made it happen.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think you guys did an awesome job. You know, one of the things that stood out to me as my wife and I were looking through this book as parents of four young kids trying to teach this topic of money is that’s it’s very hands-on, it’s relatable, it’s digestible, lots of activities, really cool ideas. You know, I often find myself, especially writing, talking about this topic regularly, presenting on this topic, you take for granted how you learned some of this information along the way. You know, I often think, OK, take a concept like compound interest or, you know, mutual funds or index funds or ultimately trying to determine what your retirement savings goals, any of those concepts, and it’s very easy to get lost in the weeds. And I think it’s often hard to figure out, how am I going to break this down and teach this with my children and really work through this? And so I found myself looking through this, not only learning myself of oh, that’s a really neat way to teach a different concept or a very visual way or a nice activity to apply that information. So I think as I looked through this, whether someone is more advanced in their own knowledge and understanding of personal finance or whether they feel like they could also learn from these concepts, either one I think this book could be a really good guide for them alongside of working with their child. So great work in the work that you put together with the book. And Allison, knowing your background is a technical project manager, I’m curious, I mean, how and why did you catch FIRE — pun intended here — with this topic, not only as an individual pursuit for financial independence but also in wanting to help guide others to the work that you’re doing with RetireBy45.com and with the book “Investing for Kids.” Where does the interest come from?

Allison Tom: Part of it is that my college degree is actually psychology and education. So I had all these grand ideas of becoming a teacher, an elementary school teacher, after I graduated from college. But you know, after a couple of years, it dawned on me that frankly, our teachers are woefully underpaid. And there was pretty much there was no clear financial path for me to continue being a teacher making the salary I was making, so I was living in Boston at the time and I moved back to New York where we eventually met waiting tables, of all things. And we came out to San Francisco on a whim, we were on vacation, we were in our mid-20s, we thought, alright, let’s check out San Francisco. And so I bounced around from career to career and ended up on a consulting company that eventually brought me into the technical world of the Bay Area. But you know, so being a project manager is basically being a glorified teacher. So it’s dropping people, wrangling people to do things that you want them to do but do it in a way that makes them want to be — work as a team and learn from each other. So in a way, it was being a project manager was — it had very similar tendencies as it was being a teacher. And so we had always thought, oh, it would be great to retire early, but we didn’t really know what retiring early meant. We thought, oh, 55, that seems like a really good age to retire. It’s earlier than 65, but it seems so far in the future. And living in the Bay Area, our expenses were so high that we were like, there’s no way, even if we’re making decent salaries between the two of us that we’re ever going to retire. But about 11 years or so ago, Dylin came down with double pneumonia and was in the ICU for about 10 days and in the hospital altogether for almost two weeks. And that for us was a light bulb moment because he was within a 50/50 chance that he would make it. And so you know, after that, we kind of thought, OK, do we really want to keep working for the next 25 years or so? And so we kind of like made it our goal to get out of the rat race as soon as we could. And so we kind of fell into by accident. We can talk about that later, but it just — it kind of was a natural progression from all of the things that we’ve been doing over time.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that makes sense. And I appreciate you sharing some of the background and story. We’ll come back to how you got to that point of early retirement, obviously as I mentioned in the introduction, early 40s to be able to accomplish that goal, and we’ll talk a little bit about how you got to that path, why that was possible as well. And so let’s first dig into some of the book of “Investing for Kids.” Let’s start with the main characters of the book, the Dollar Duo: Mr. Finance and Investing Woman. Allison, tell us more about these two characters, how you came up with the idea, why it was important to the overall text, and how those characters can really help the learner, again, 8- to 12-year-old is the target group here, engage with the material throughout the book.

Allison Tom: Well, first of all, it was kind of funny, today is actually Superheroes Day, so –

Tim Ulbrich: There we go.

Allison Tom: It’s a perfect segue into the topic. We were actually taking a walk one day as we were writing the book, and we were talking about politics, of all things. And we were trying to figure out in the administration, whichever administration, whoever won the presidency, what each president could do to make their administration better. And so we kind of were talking and talking about of all things, the Justice League of America and who we would think would be a good fit for making this country a better country. And so the whole idea of the Justice League, kind of thought, we thought, oh, superheroes. Kids love superheroes. Let’s talk to our publisher about bringing in some superheroes. And we were like, well, I don’t know if they’ll go for that, there’s some extra graphics involved and it could be expensive, but we felt that it would really be a good way for kids to relate to finances. And so we kind of pushed hard for this idea of having superheroes teach kids finance.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that stood out to me in addition to how visual it is. This does not — especially for a topic like investing, right, can be weighty at times, it can be overwhelming, I often find myself when I’m giving a talk on this topic, starts with excitement often when we think about what the — and then you get into the weeds and you see the eyes gloss over, right, and other things. And this does not read like a textbook in any way, shape, or form. And I’m grateful for that. So thank you for the illustrations, the activities, the superheroes, but I think it very much reads like an interactive, applicable, nuts-and-bolts, important information, but how do I actually apply it and hopefully get excited about this information. Again, we’re thinking about an 8- to 12-year-old of wanting to really hopefully empower them to be excited with this for the rest of their own financial journey. And I very much read this book, as I mentioned, being a father of four boys who also lives and breathes personal finance, I really do often find myself in conversation with my boys about money. And honestly, I struggle at times with making the topic of money tangible and meaningful. And it can feel abstract, especially when I find myself trying to say and teach a principle that I very much understand but it feels more abstract as I talk it out loud and especially when you start to view it through the lens of a child. And so I like how you start the book with Chapter 1 on Money 101. You cover important topics like money doesn’t grow on trees, ways to earn money, a little bit of entrepreneurship in there, which is really cool, the history of money, where to keep money. And so Dylin, here’s the challenge that I’m seeing with my boys. In the age of credit cards, debit cards, direct deposit, online banking, digital currency, electronic payment methods, it can feel difficult to teach a child about money when you don’t see it. Right? There’s very little actual, physical cash and therefore, it can be hard to connect work and I think the opportunities from work with earning money and therefore, the opportunity to then save and see it grow. So what are some tips and strategies as you put this book together as well as the other teaching you’ve done on this topic about how can we teach kids about money in a way that it can be relatable, it can be tangible, and then hopefully it becomes memorable for them.

Dylin Redling: Yeah, you know, that’s a really good point about money being very digital in this day and age. I remember when I was a kid, one of the coolest things was my grandmother would give me and my cousins 50 single dollars for Christmas and for our birthdays. They would come in a little box just big enough to hold those 50 $1 bills.

Tim Ulbrich: I love that.

Dylin Redling: And — yeah, it was really cool. And you know, $50 back then for a kid was a lot of money. And those 50 $1 bills would last a really long time. I would take them into the arcade, into the pizza parlor, whatever. And so maybe one way to do it is to actually bring back physical money. And I don’t think the amount really matters that much. But like you said, I mean, being able to tangibly feel it, see it, and understand it, it helps a lot more if you’re using physical money. And I’ll actually give an example of that we used on our blog and in actually “Start Your FIRE” book. I don’t think we mentioned it in “Investing for Kids,” but it’s a little story I like to tell about a money lesson that I actually learned from Allison when we were waiting tables in New York. So we met in a big restaurant in Times Square, and Allison grew up with a little bit of a better financial education in her household than I did. My single mother was wonderful, but it was all paycheck-to-paycheck, there wasn’t a lot of saving or investing. So I came into our initial relationship not very good at dealing with money. So anyway, we were waiting tables. So all of our money pretty much was in tips. So we would have tons of cash. And I remember just putting the money — I would wad it up into balls, I would stuff it into all four of my pockets because I was busy. And then we would go out afterwards and Allison saw how I was treating my money, and she was like, “What are you doing? How do you even keep track of that? That’s awful.” And so she taught me this little lesson. And she doesn’t even remember this because this was 25 years ago, but it stuck out in my head. And basically, I call it the Wallet Lesson. When you take all of your bills and you put them nicely, neatly in order from small to big or big to small, whatever works, fold it neatly into your wallet. And it’s really simple, but the reason it was impactful for me is because it just got me to think about how to respect and treat money. You know, you work really hard for money –

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Dylin Redling: And if you don’t treat it well, you don’t respect it, you know, that $50 might not seem like a big deal. But when it gets to $100,000 or $500,000 and you don’t have that same respect and feel for what that money represents and how hard it was to earn it, you’re not going to put it and treat it and save it and protect it as well as you could.

Tim Ulbrich: Such a good example of a behavioral move, right? The number of dollars didn’t change, but how you treated them, how you respected them, how you viewed them, and I think many of our listeners, we talk on this show often that I believe personal finance, it’s about the math and it’s about the behavior, and both of those are very important and some of those types of moves or here, teaching kids in that way, I think can be very powerful as well. Allison, Chapter 2, save your money, you have an activity titled “Be an Interest Rate Detective.” I love this. I thought this was a really cool interactive activity where you challenge the reader to work with an adult to research interest rates for a local bank savings account, a CD, so a Certificate of Deposit, and an online savings account. So again, this was just one of many example activities you have throughout the book, but why is an activity like this so important in terms of someone being an interest rate detective to experience and go through as they begin their journey of understanding some of the basics of investing?

Allison Tom: So part of it is we wanted all the activities to be something that kids could do with the adult in their life. And we didn’t assume that every child has a parent because we know in this modern day and age that families are different nowadays, and you might have two moms or two dads or a grandmother or grandfather or a guardian of some sort. So we wanted something that people could do together with — kids could do together with someone else. And we thought, oh, it’s going to be interesting because banks are closed during COVID. When we were writing the book, it was right in the heart of shelter in place. But we thought, well, you know, kids have access to — most kids have access to a computer, they can at least walk around to a local bank and banks always have their advertisements on their windows with their interest rates. But we thought it would be an interesting way for kids to see what is in their environment and practice some good behaviors like oh, what does interest rate mean? What is APR? Those are, they’re jumbled letters and so you actually learn what the acronym stands for. And so we want to make sure that kids could kind of connect their physical world to their these abstract ideas about money. So all these activities are kind of a way to get kids to start thinking about it, and we were like, oh, kids aren’t really going to want to do activities, it’s extra homework. So we tried to make them fun and things that they could actually do and feel like they were learning something.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think this was a good example where the activity really, to me, is a rabbit hole of other learning, right? So if you go to the bank and do this activity, just like you suggested, Allison, it leads to other conversations and questions like, what is the federal reserve? And what is an insured account? What does that mean? You talk about that in the book, you know, how do you explain the federal reserve? What is compound interest? Why is that so important? What is principle? What’s interest? What do terms mean? And I think it, again, leads to further conversations, which obviously hopefully spark some motivation and curiosity to learn more on this topic. Dylin, in Chapter 3, Introduction to Investing, you cover very important topics, you know, why to invest, risk v. reward — and I love the Risk-o-meter throughout the book, that was really neat — liquidity, the importance of conducting research, and connecting back to my previous comment about the difficulties teaching a child about money when it may not be tangible, you can’t see it, can’t feel it type of a mindset, I think this is another area where parents may feel challenged to teach a child the importance of investing when again, it might feel somewhat abstract and here, we’re talking about delayed gratification, right? So not spending money on something today that has an instant reward. I think back to my childhood, it was driving to the corner store, buying baseball cards, buying candy, you earn the money, you spent the money, you saw the reward instantly. So here, the activity on investing, which I thought helped to really drive this concept further, you talk about an activity of picking a stock and really going through that process of understanding what’s involved there. So talk us through that type of an activity, what’s involved in that, and why that’s important to help a child relate to the concepts of investing.

Dylin Redling: Yeah, sure. It’s interesting because I can also relate it to how Allison and I do our own investing. And most of what we do, to be honest, are buying mutual funds and index funds. We don’t do a lot of single stock buying. However, there are some advantages to just helping a child or anybody, really, think about, well, if you were to buy a single stock, what would the thought process be when you do that? We actually just wrote an interesting post on our blog just about a week ago where we had $10,000 that we wanted to experiment with. And what we did is we selected five different stocks to invest that $10,000. So $2,000 per stock. And I went through the process in that blog post of why we would do this. And it wasn’t to get rich quick or to see what would happen in a week or a month. This particular blog post talked about a one-year time frame. And it’s the same with the activity for the child. I think we used a shorter — a relatively short time frame so they could at least measure their success. At the end of the day, investing, as you know, as your listeners know, it’s very much a long-term process where you’re investing over years and decades. But again, to get the child to think about some of the things that you might want to think about with whether you’re investing in stocks or any sort of investment, what are the things that go into that thought process? And so getting back to that blog post I wrote, some of the stocks that I suggested that we test out, one was a blockchain ETF. So now that bitcoin and other coin-based just went public, those are things that we wouldn’t necessarily invest in directly. But a blockchain ETF is an example of a way you could dip your toe into that technology. So that was the thought process there. Another example was a cruise company, NCL, Norwegian Cruise Line. Now that COVID is starting to disappear and everyone’s getting vaccinated, people, there’s this pent-up demand to start traveling again. So we thought, hey, in the next year, NCL may actually start to do really good. And they even have a program where if you have 100 shares, you get extra bonus points. And so the idea is to think about all the different aspects to that investment, like how does it relate to what’s going on in the world right now? And what other pros and cons are there to that investment?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think we share your philosophy. What I heard there is our planning team often says a good investing plan should probably be as about boring as watching paint dry.

Dylin Redling: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: At the end of the day, it’s about a long-term play. But I like this activity as a concept. You know, I remember I had a great Econ101 teacher that had us do a similar activity. And it’s very memorable because it also leads to many other conversations like well, what type of influence does my marketing have? Or I thought this was going to go this way, and it didn’t go this way. Maybe I had some overconfidence in my selection of things. So why is diversification important? So I think, again, reading it and doing it, two very, very different things. And I think people experiencing this firsthand, especially you think of an 8- to 12-year-old, a very kinesthetic learner, right, hands-on experience that moment, be able to learn through that experience. Allison, as I went through the book, many times I thought to myself, man, what if I would have had some of this information earlier? What if I would have had this in middle school or high school or perhaps even earlier? And shoutout to my parents, who did an awesome job of the foundations, grew up in a small business, felt like I had a little bit of a head start. But outside of some K-12 programs and in higher education, I would say it’s largely absent, maybe some elective courses or some opportunities. And so I can’t help but think like, why aren’t we doing more of this? Why aren’t we covering more of this in a K-12 education? I mean, this type of book, this type of experience, these types of activities would be a home run in teaching kids about money. Here, we’re taking 8-12 investing, but obviously we all know it’s broader than that as well. So question here, I’m not asking you to solve the personal finance educational system woes, but why do you think this is not more foundational to our educational system in terms of personal finance education?

Allison Tom: Right. So I think part of it is that our generation didn’t really learn this either. And so as the educators come up with their curriculum, I think honestly, a lot of adults are really intimidated by personal finance. And so it’s something that seems easy enough for them to cut out of the education system as an elective because well, if they don’t understand it, then kids aren’t going to understand it. And if they’re intimidated by it, then kids are definitely going to not understand it and be intimidated by it, so let’s not even talk about it, which actually is one of the reasons why we thought it was important to write the book. We didn’t get this education when we were growing up. I know my parents are second-generation immigrants. And so the money lessons that they learned were from their parents, who grew up during the Great Depression. And as immigrants coming over to this country, they just pooled their money and they saved and they saved and they worked 20 hours a day to make money and then they would maybe invest it in the bank, although plenty of my relatives didn’t even bother with that. So my lessons growing up were save and save and save and save. I had a little piggy bank, and I would put all my coins in from the piggy bank, but that was the only thing that I learned. And so it wasn’t until I got to college, and then I had my first credit card that I just — oof. It was bad. I did not understand the concept of paying credit cards and interest rates and late fees and minimum payments. And so, you know, I got in trouble with credit cards after I graduated. And it wasn’t until after that that I thought, oh, I really need to learn more about what’s going on here. And so I started watching some shows on PBS, but by then, you know, I’m in my early 20s at that point. My learning took a lot longer for the habits to become engrained in me. So you know, I really do think that if kids could see this stuff earlier, it would be so much more impactful. You know, I’ve talked to a girlfriend of mine, her daughter is 17 and she read the book and she was like, “Yeah, you know, I’m going to start doing the savings plan when I get a job.” My friend was laughing because she’s like, my daughter doesn’t have a job. But she was just like, she got inspired by it, and I thought, oh, if we could just get kids to learn this stuff sooner –

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Allison Tom: All the great things we could do with them. So hopefully. Hopefully.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I love that, to that point, Allison. I think it was early in the book, you have the reader go through an activity where they identify problems, things that could be improved upon, right? And one of the things I often say is that any business is a solution to a problem, and that solution is one that people care about and are willing to pay for. And you know, I love that because I think for a child, like if they can think about, what are some things that could be done better? You know, one of them you proposed in the book, which was really cool because we recently just bought this — or actually we got it as a gift for our kids from our family — is you mention like chess. Really hard game for kids to play, kids to learn. Why isn’t there a solution out there that can make chess easier to play? Sure enough, there is. There’s a card game where you draw cards, you learn the basic moves of chess. So things like that, I think you’re inspiring some of the creative thinking, the problem solving, and laying some of the seeds of entrepreneurship or even for those that don’t own their own company, which would be the vast majority of folks, intrepreneurship, how can you be a problem solver within your organization? And how can you create solutions that make you a valuable asset within that organization? I want to shift gears a bit to connect some of the work that you have in “Investing for Kids” with what you cover in your site, Retireby45.com. You mentioned your other FIRE book as well. And I got the impression that you both, you believe that everyone could put together — especially an 8- to 12-year-old reading the “Investing for Kids” book — put together a plan for FIRE, again Financial Independence Retire Early — by the age of 45. So Dylin, our listeners know firsthand that time in the market equals success, and that compound interest, as you mentioned in the book, is the eighth wonder of the world. So we know the math is possible if someone starts at an early age. But why do you think it’s important that someone plans for FIRE by the age of 45?

Dylin Redling: Whether you’re able to retire in your 40s or your 50s or you do a traditional retirement in your 60s or even beyond, Allison’s dad, for example, is 70 now — or slightly older — and has no intentions of stopping working even though Allison suggests that he stop and enjoy life. But he’s got a job that he really loves. And so there’s a lot of people out there that are like that. So we love our FIRE lifestyle and the fact that we left our W2 jobs in our 40s, but we know it’s not for everybody. But what we do also know is that the concepts of Financial Independence are good for anybody, no matter when you might want to retire. And those concepts are really about doing the right thing with your money. So it starts with saving, it starts with being somewhat frugal — and when we say frugal, we don’t mean living a spartan lifestyle. We just mean not going crazy with money with spending on things that you don’t want or that you don’t need or you feel like you have to keep up with the Joneses and get a brand new SUV every two years. So there’s that, and of course investing wisely. And you know, we have another story that we write out on our blog, which kind of I think can be somewhat inspiring to people who are in their 20s and maybe haven’t really done anything with their finances yet. We, as Allison alluded to earlier, kind of our story is we met in New York and then we moved to San Francisco. And we were in our mid-20s at the time. And we still hadn’t invested a dollar yet. And it wasn’t until our late 20s that we got “real jobs” with a 401k plan and that sort of thing. And so it wasn’t until our late 20s that we really started investing. And our entire investment life cycle, if you will, was about 17 years from our late 20s to our early 40s. And in that time, we just were so diligent about dollar cost averaging, we did — we invested into both our 401k, our IRA, and a taxable account once we got some extra income literally on a weekly basis for years and years and years, no matter what the market was doing. Through the 2001 .com crash because we’re both working in that industry and of course through the ‘08-’09 recession. Never stopped. And so those kind of habits, again, are good for anybody no matter what your retirement goals are, just really those financial habits are going to put you in a great position.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I’m glad you shared that, Dylin. One of the questions I had for you was I read your story of not really late 20s, early 30s getting serious about investing, but retired or achieving FIRE by 43, 44, so short window of time, right? We tend to think of a very long trajectory of savings. You mentioned 17 years. So my question was what was the secret sauce? And if I heard you correctly, it was tax-advantaged accounts, 401k’s, IRAs, some taxable accounts and dollar cost averaging and being consistent. Is that fair?

Dylin Redling: Yeah. You know, a couple other things we did — we did the phrase “side hustle” is really popular now. But when we did it, we just called it a side business. This was in the mid-2000s. I came up with an affiliate marketing business that I ran on the weekends. And it ended up being a third income for us. So there’s things like maximizing your income. And then another concept — I’ll shoot it over to Allison to talk about — is geographic arbitrage. And that helped us kind of move about nine years ahead of schedule. Do you want to talk about how we did that?

Allison Tom: Sure. So geographic arbitrage has a lot of different meanings in the — for people. And the gist of it is that you leverage your current salary and move to a lower cost location. And so most people think that is oh, I’m going to make my United States salary and move to Thailand or Costa Rica, where the cost of living is exceedingly low. We did it by moving from San Francisco to Oakland, California, which geographically is a 10-mile difference but at the time, we were able to save about 50% on our housing costs.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Allison Tom: So yeah, it was pretty insane. For being 10 miles away, two or three train stops away on our BART system, we were able to pay off our condo in Oakland in cash by selling our place in San Francisco, which alleviated all the mortgage payments, the increase in property payments and our insurance went down as well. So that, Dylin calculated later, saved us probably about nine years of working because our mortgage in San Francisco was so astronomical that just cutting 50% off just pushed us into the financial independence sphere that much sooner. So it’s things like that. Obviously not everybody is going to be able to save 50% of their housing by moving 10 miles away, but there are other ways to do it. You can do things like house hacking where if you have space on your property, you could build an extra unit and rent it out or if you have an extra bedroom, you could rent it out and have a roommate or Airbnb it. So there are ways tod do it without going through the extreme example that we had. So there are plenty of ways to cut costs in your life that are relatively painless, that we’ve talked about all the time, so there are just different ways to do it to achieve FIRE. And some people don’t even choose to do the early retiring like my father is the example. So retirement is really more of the optional part. We’re not saying you have to retire, you have to leave your job and just sit around drinking mojitos all day long, although it’s certainly not a bad lifestyle. But you know, the retiring part is up to the individual.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I’m glad you said that, Allison, because I know many of our listeners love what they’re doing as pharmacists and they worked hard, and they got a doctorate degree and they have student loan debt and they invested in that education. And so my read is that many pharmacists are captivated by the idea and the power of financial independence. And you know, I believe that’s a goal we all should strive for for a variety of reasons with RE, Retire Early, being one of those perhaps reasons, but other things as well in terms of why that financial independence may be important. So nine years, nine years was estimated from that one decision, which I’m coming full-circle, Allison, about what you shared at the beginning of Dylin being in the hospital with double pneumonia. And when you start to think about the value of time, I mean, nine years and doing some of those calculations and what does that mean for one’s personal situation, I think that’s a really powerful example of taking something that can be mathematical or objective and looking at it in a different mindset. If we were to make this move or this move, what does that mean for us in terms of timeline to retirement, working part-time, pursuing another opportunity, what does that mean for one’s goals towards financial independence? I’m glad you discussed geographic arbitrage because one of the things we see in our profession in pharmacy is that unfortunately, a pharmacist’s income usually does not translate with cost of living. So here I am in the Midwest and that income for a pharmacist in the Bay Area might be a little bit more for a similar role but nowhere near the cost of living difference between Columbus, Ohio and San Francisco, California. So I think this is a move, especially for many of our listeners that might be saying, you know, ‘I’m making a decent income, but I’ve got a lot of work to do on student loans, I want to invest, I want to buy a home, I want to do this or that. And at the end of the day, there’s only so much income.’ So is a move, whether it’s near, within 10 miles, or something a little bit more significant, is that an option that somebody may be able to pursue? Allison, what have you guys been doing since achieving FIRE? You know, what’s been the goals, what’s been the priority, how have you been spending time? I think that’s one of the other common objections that comes up is like, if I retire at 45, like I don’t even know what I would do with my time. Tell us a little bit about that journey since you guys have achieve FIRE.

Allison Tom: So it’s funny, we — so we FIREd quite by accident. We were both working in tech startups, and Dylin got laid off and then I got laid off about five weeks afterwards. And so we kind of took the time after we were both laid off to travel a little bit. That was one of the things that two people who are working can’t always schedule, coordinate their schedules, to take some time off. And so we thought, alright, this is the perfect time. We went to Europe for two weeks and did a cruise around the Mediterranean and had a blast and then came back and thought, alright, we’ve got to get back to work. So we went about — we went on interviews and we just saw just how miserable people were at their jobs. Just so stressed out, and I interviewed with this one guy who was like, “You need to tell me who said this about us so I can go talk to them.” I’m like, I don’t want to work for you. You’re scary. And so you know, the three months turned into six months and then nine months and then Dylin figured out kind of like back of the envelope math, figured out that we could actually retire without having to go back to work anymore. He stumbled into the 4% Rule, which we still hadn’t at that point heard the term FIRE before. You know, the first few years we did a fair amount of traveling domestically. Like we would go back to visit his mother and my father, who both live on the East Coast, which is one of the things you just don’t get time to do when you’re working is spending time with family. And so you know, if we would go back East, we would maybe spend two days with each parent because they don’t live that close to each other. And now, we can actually go and spend a week with each parental unit. And that makes a big difference because, you know, they’re getting older and living across the country, it’s harder to connect with them. So we do a lot more slow travel where we don’t have to feel rushed between people. And then it’s funny because we — our retirement has changed as time goes by. So for people who are concerned that oh, what am I going to do with my time? Your time is yours. You can now make your own schedule. And that, to me, is the beauty of not just financial independence, it’s financial freedom because you can choose what you want to do. And so you know, the first two years were traveling domestically, the second two years were more about traveling internationally. And we had two cats that passed away at 19. So for us, they were like our kids. And so we did not do a lot of traveling away from them until they passed on. And so once they did, we’re like, alright, we’re going to go crazy and go travel around the globe. And so the last — and then the last two years have been focused on writing books and going to financial conferences and kind of learning from others and then applying that and communicating out to audiences like yours. That’s the beauty of the time being yours is you can make it whatever you want to do. We also do a lot more work with our community that we never had time to do when we were working. So we’re a lot more invested in our neighborhood, and we spend more time working with businesses in our neighborhood to bring in more business. So having that luxury of time means you can go explore whatever interests pop up. So you know, did we ever think that we would be working with small businesses two years ago? Probably not. But now we are, and we’re advocates for small businesses in our neighborhood, and that’s something we would never have thought we would have done when we first retired.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s very cool. And I read as well your goal of 60 by 60. Sixty countries to visit by the age of 60. If I understand it, you’re about halfway through. Looking forward to following your journey. I’m hopeful you’ll be blogging about it along the way as well. Dylin, I’m going to throw the last question I have over for you. And one of the things I think about when it comes to early retirement and achieving financial independence or the FIRE movement is that it really does require delayed gratification and at times, you mentioned the word frugality earlier. And that frugality can be at various levels. As you mentioned, we’re not necessarily talking spartan type of frugality. My question here though is how do we strike the balance? You know, whether it’s for ourselves or teaching our kids about saving and investing to take care of our future selves but also valuing and making sure we understand that it’s important that we enjoy some of the money along the way as well. I find myself often struggling with this individually of, OK, I know I need to take care of my future self and probably sometimes I do that at the expense of the experiences and the enjoyment today. And I think striking this balance is really important. What are your thoughts on that?

Dylin Redling: You know, I’ll actually plug a couple of other books besides ours that I really like. One is “A Simple Path to Wealth” by Janelle Collins, which I highly recommend. And another one is actually one of Allison’s favorites. It has a funny title, it’s “I Will Teach You to Be Rich” by —

Allison Tom: Ramit Sethi.

Dylin Redling: Ramit Sethi. And we saw him speak. He was a keynote speaker at FinCon a couple years ago. And one of the things that he said, which really resonated with me and it goes to your question, is spend liberally on things that you enjoy. But hold back aggressively on things that are not important to you. And it’s a very simple concept. But again, it goes directly to your question, and it’s really — maybe you or your kids or whoever’s thinking about this makes a list. Here are the things I’m passionate about. Here are the things that I really enjoy. I love travel, I like eating out at restaurants, I like entertainment, sports, whatever it is. And I’m going to set my budget to focus on those things. I’m going to be OK — maybe I’ll go to a World Series game because I’m a huge baseball fan. Or I’m going to set a goal to go to every baseball park in America. You know, whatever that goal might be. Conversely, think about the things that aren’t that important to you like maybe a brand new car is not important to you, so you drive your car for 10-20 years and you really just never focus on spending a lot of money on that. And so those are the concepts that I think are something to really think about. And for us, that’s what we’ve always done. When people look at our lifestyle from the outside or even some of our friends, you know, they may think, wow, we’ve always lived in pretty expensive apartments — or condos or houses, so they might think, wow, they spend a lot of money. But if you look a little deeper, like we had a car for almost 20 years. We had a Volkswagen Jetta. We just recently got a new-to-us couple years old Toyota Corolla. So there’s an example where we just — you know, having a brand new car wasn’t that important to us. But again, we have the 60 by 60 goal. So travel is really important to us. And we have no problem spending that extra money to go travel for a few months and really try to see the world because that’s something that we’re passionate about. That being said, when we do travel, we try to — we don’t stay at four-star hotels because part of our kind of nature is to also find some deals here and there and to just spend consciously, to just spend our money kind of wisely.

Allison Tom: We prefer to spend money on the experiences rather than the hotel room that we’re putting our suitcase in.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. And I was at that keynote that you were at, and with Ramit, and I’ll never forget it. I mean, the concept that he talks about in “I Will Teach You to Be Rich,” money dials, right, is find the things that are of value to you and dial it up. And find the things that are not and dial them down. And you know, I remember hearing that, and I was like, heck yeah. It just makes so much sense. And you know, to the comment of experiences and even the literature really showing happiness related to money, it’s experience and giving typically are the areas where we see that biggest connection. So Allison and Dylin, I really appreciate you guys taking time to come on the show. Kudos on the work here with “Investing for Kids,” I really enjoyed it, as well as the work that you’re doing at Retireby45.com and your other book, “Start Your FIRE: A Modern Guide to Early Retirement.” As it relates to the book “Investing for Kids,” I hope our audience will pick up a copy of this, available at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, many other online vendors as well. I really did find it engaging, it was rich with relevant information, practical exercises to apply the information, as I mentioned, certainly does not look, feel, or read like a textbook. And so I think many in our community are going to find it helpful. What’s the best place for our audience to go to follow the work that the two of you are doing?

Dylin Redling: Well, our — I’ll plug our website, and I’ll have Allison plug our Instagram account. Retireby45.com is our website, and we blog there on a once or twice a month with a fresh new blog post, and we have a bunch of stuff on there, courses and other things. And then Allison’s been working on really putting together a pretty cool Instagram account.

Allison Tom: So we have Instagram and Twitter both @retire_by_45. Yeah, it’s been an interesting challenge trying to get into the social media, the social media space.

Tim Ulbrich: Very good. We will link to both of those in the show notes as well as the Retireby45.com as well as the books that we’ve mentioned, not only your books but the others that you referenced as well. So the two of you, thank you again very much for your time. I really appreciate it.

Allison Tom: Thanks, Tim. It’s great.

Dylin Redling: Thanks.

Allison Tom: O-H

Dylin Redling: I-O

Tim Ulbrich: I-O!

Dylin Redling: Thanks, Tim. Great talking to you.

Tim Ulbrich: As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 301: On FIRE with Riley Protz, PharmD

Posted on March 30, 2023March 20, 2023 by Rose

Riley Protz, PharmD, MBA, a pharmacist on the FIRE journey since completing pharmacy administration residency training, discusses his career journey, student loan philosophy, and pathway to financial independence while living a rich and fulfilling life.

About Today’s Guest

Riley Protz, PharmD, MBA is a pharmacy leader and an industry expert on the 340B drug pricing program. He is the Director of Optimization at SpendMend Pharmacy. He consults with clients on opportunities to decrease their pharmaceutical drug spending and increase revenue-generating services through the 340B program. Prior to his current role, Riley was the Pharmacy Inventory Manager and 340B Program Manager of a health system in Salem, Oregon.

Riley earned his Doctor of Pharmacy degree and Masters of Business Administration from Oregon State University. He then completed a PGY1/PGY2 Health System Pharmacy Administration & Leadership (HSPAL) residency with Providence Health & Services.

Episode Summary

This week on the YFP Podcast, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, discusses FIRE and the pathway to financial independence with Riley Protz, PharmD. Riley is a pharmacist on a FIRE journey since completing pharmacy administration residency training. During this episode, Tim and Riley delve into Riley’s career journey and what drew him into the profession of pharmacy, his student loan philosophy and strategy to tackle $80,000 in student loans given the climate with the pandemic and PSLF extensions, and how he is planning out his pathway toward financial independence. Riley speaks on his motivations for pursuing FIRE as a new practitioner with competing financial priorities, the various FIRE subcommunities, why he doesn’t identify with any specific group, the challenges of working towards FIRE, and how Riley manages to balance the importance of financial freedom with living a rich and fulfilling life now. Listeners will hear the strategies Riley has employed to reach FIRE, including having a financial plan, continuing to live like a resident, using high-yield savings accounts, not carrying a car payment, renting over buying a home, and mitigating early retirement risks through flexibility in investing. Stay tuned until the end of a library of FIRE resources, blogs, podcasts, and books that Riley recommends for those beginning their FIRE journey.

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

Today, I welcome Riley Protz, a pharmacist who has been on the FIRE journey since completing his pharmacy administration residency training. In this episode, we’ll delve into Riley’s career journey, his student loan philosophy, and repayment strategy, and his pathway towards achieving financial independence. We’ll also discuss the challenges of pursuing FIRE and how Riley balances his desire for financial independence with living a rich and fulfilling life today.

If you’re new to the concept of FIRE, Riley will explain what it means and why he has chosen to pursue it. We’ll also hear from Riley about the resources that have been most helpful for him on his journey including books, websites, and podcasts. Whether you’re on the FIRE journey or taking a long, steady approach saving for retirement, at YFP Planning, we’re here to support you along the way. YFP Planning is a fee-only financial planning firm that is customized to the pharmacy professional.

The team at YFP Planning includes five certified financial planners serving over 280 households in 40-plus states. If you’re interested in learning more about working one on one with a certified financial planner, may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call by visiting yfpplanning.com. Again, that’s yfpplanning.com. Okay. Let’s jump into my interview with Riley Protz.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:29] TU: Riley, thanks for joining the show.

[0:01:31] RP: Yes. Hey, Tim. Thanks for having me.

[0:01:33] TU: Before we jump into your FIRE journey, which is going to be the topic at hand for today, tell us about your career journey in pharmacy, where you went to pharmacy school, and what ultimately drew you into the profession.

[0:01:46] RP: Sure, yes. I mean, I honestly wish I had a better way pharmacy story. but I went to Oregon State University for undergrad, enjoyed the science classes. When it was time to choose a major, I had a friend that was doing pre-pharmacy and I thought, “Hey, Oregon State has an advanced degree program, maybe I’ll go and do an advanced degree. That kind of makes sense.” I chose pre-pharmacy as a major and thought, “You know what, something will come up that I want to do more, something more compelling.” Really nothing ever, you know, piqued my interest more than pharmacy did. I liked those pre-pharmacy classes I took. I got into pharmacy school on the first try at Oregon State University. It was a very easy transition.

I kind of stuck with it ever since. I didn’t really have any experience prior to choosing pharmacy, and kind of navigated those waters as I got into school. It luckily worked because I kind of didn’t have a great plan going into the process.

[0:02:34] TU: You and me both, Riley. I think sometimes, we have people on the show that have very motivational, very inspiring stories around how they entered the profession. I’ve shared before on the show that I liked science, I like math, I was undecided. From a major standpoint, I had a guidance counselor said, “Hey, why not think about pharmacy.” I did one shadowing experience. I think it was an independent pharmacy and made a commitment for six years and a whole lot of money from that advice. Sometimes that’s how the story goes.

But you decided, Riley, “Hey, I’m going to get the PharmD, but I’m going to go as well and do a PGY1, PGY2 MBA combined program.” For many of our listeners, they may be familiar with these as a PGY1, PGY2 MS. Some do an MBA program, where you’re doing all that two-year period. Why did you choose that pathway? Then what is the work that you’ve been doing since completing that?

[0:03:26] RP: Yes, I chose to do – around P3 year, I had an internship in community pharmacy. I worked in hospital pharmacy a little bit and I kind of decided that I wanted to do something around leadership and administration. Then the career trajectory and platform, there’s a lot less opportunities in community pharmacy than there is in health systems and hospitals. There’s just a lot more opportunities to be a manager director, whatever it may be in the administration realm. When I kind of looked okay, I have to go towards hospital. Residency just made sense and if I want to fast forward that pathway. The dual PGY1, PGY2, it’s HSPAL now, which is too many letters, but Health System Pharmacy Administration and Leadership residency seemed like the correct option for me. I was very fortunate to match with that, and it had a dual MBA tagged onto the residency, so I completed the MBA in the middle of residency.

Ideally, you’re supposed to have a lot of good opportunities, completion of residency, especially doing administration residency, getting that additional MBA. I graduated in the summer of 2020. Very early on in the pandemic, when everyone’s pulling back. There were almost zero job opportunities. But I had a great mentor who had left the organization I was at for residency, became a chief pharmacy officer somewhere else, and was able to create a position that I was lucky to have.

I was a pharmacy manager for a couple of years at a health system focusing on their 340B program, as well as their hospital purchasing. Then the last year, I’ve switched to the consulting realm, which has been super exciting. Still around 340B, so I kind of consider myself a subject matter expert around optimizing 340 programs for clinics and hospitals. The company is called SpendMend Pharmacy. My clients now are our hospitals and we help them around finding more savings, and helping with their possible purchasing in general, NDC optimization, really anywhere around decreasing their huge drug expense in hospitals. That’s usually one of your top three expenses for health system.

[0:05:21] TU: Riley, let’s talk about your student loans before we jump into the FIRE journey in more detail. Since 2018, so you graduate 2018, $80,000 when you came out. For those that have graduated since 2018, it’s really been a whirlwind, right? We’ve had the pandemic pause that’s now been going on for more than three years. We’ve had the expansion of PSLF eligibility. We’ve talked about that on the show. Then right now, this week, at the time of recording, the supreme court is deciding what they’re going to do related to the Biden administration debt cancellation program. Not looking too favorable in the moment for that program going through, but we’ll obviously provide updates as we get some final news there.

My question is, $80,000, that is substantially less than what we see as the national average today for pharmacy grads, right around 160. What was your philosophy and strategy related to your student loans, especially knowing some of the wrinkles that have come in over the last couple of years with the pandemic and with some of the PSLF extensions and waivers?

[0:06:24] RP: Yes. I was lucky to have graduated with $80,000. I went to in-state tuition. I lived at home for two of the four years of pharmacy school, worked every summer and I think that helped with getting that number low at the very end. But once I graduated pharmacy school, I was like, “Okay.” Well, there’s a lot of decisions to make, right? Do you want to go through income-based repayment, there’s repay, there’s PSLF, which in 2018, people were less likely to see that it would go through, but now it looks like it’s a great strategy. There’s refinancing loans as well. I think I probably pulled up multiple calculators, maybe the YFP calculator o your guys’ website. And said, “Hey, what makes sense with my five, five and a half percent interest rate to do?”

Financially, it made sense to pay it off sooner rather than later, and not to go through the income-based repayment method. That’s what I started doing. I was paying off my loans throughout residency. I was about to refinance my loans when I completed residency when the pause took place. I was like, “Hey, 0% interest rates are a lot better than what I could have gotten, maybe three and a half percent.”

I just took that as an opportunity to pay them as fast as I could. My strategy completing residency was, live like I’m still resident, right? That’s what we tell people. Don’t let lifestyle creep come into play, and so I just paid those off as quickly as I could. I did end up stopping a little bit and saying, “Let’s just hold on to the money. I don’t really need to pay it off. There’s 0% interest.” Once I think I had around, maybe $30,000, $35,000 left, I did refinance it just to get that cash bonus, and then paid it off.

I didn’t told you this last time we chatted, Tim. I had tried to do this student loan forgiveness, get a refund back. Not [inaudible 0:07:52].

[0:07:52] TU: I remember that. Yes. Yes.

[0:07:54] RP: Yes. I think it was back in October, I tried to get a $10,000 refund back because my loans are at zero percent now, but I would have qualified for the student loan forgiveness. Because my income in 2020, I was a resident for half of it, so I didn’t reach that income limit. Literally yesterday, I got the check in the mail about $10,000. You know what, who knows if it’s ever going to come into play, but now I have a student loan balance of $10,000, which if forgiveness happens, that’s great. If not, I’ll take a zero percent free-interest loan, and I’ll put that in my savings account for a little bit of time. Literally, I didn’t even think it was going to come. It was a request I put in. Four to five months later, literally yesterday, I had the check.

[0:08:34] TU: I say, what timing, right, with us recording the episode here today. I think your story is a really good. One thing I’m sensing, which I love Riley, and I hope other listeners will take from it is just the intentionality around understanding the nuances of student loans. There’s lots of different pathways that go. You mentioned some of those – whether it’s forgiveness, non-forgiveness, refinancing. It’s more complicated of a system than it probably needs to be, but that’s the hand we’ve been dealt, whether we like it or not. It’s really up to the borrower to take the time to understand the nuances, and really get into the optimization, which is what you’re doing, right? You’re putting yourself in a position to optimize, obviously, see what comes to be of the Supreme Court decision when payments are going to kick back in. I love the intentionality behind the strategy.

I’m sensing that’s going to be a good segue here as we talk about FIRE because that also relies on the strategy of one being intentional. Let’s go there. Riley, when you and I talked last year, what really excited me was talking to a new practitioner who is really on the front end of their journey towards financial independence. I think sometimes, it’s new practitioners. I just talked with a new practitioner this week. He’s been out about seven, eight years. They’ve been working through student loans, they got married, they started a family. That concept of retirement planning. It’s like, yes, it’ll be there, something I’ll worry about a little bit later. I think for some folks that are planning a very traditional timeline to retirement, that pathway of savings may certainly work. Obviously, we’ll talk here today more aggressive, early investing in your career type of a strategy.

I think for many new practitioners, it’s hard to reconcile this idea that I can accelerate and optimize the wealth-building part of my financial plan, while I’m being saddled by student loan debt, getting started with my career and all these other competing priorities. I’m really excited to dive in with you, as you’re on the front end of the journey of the FIRE, why did you go this pathway? How are you employing strategies on the FIRE journey? What are some of the resources that have helped you along the way?

Before we get too deep, though, for folks that have not heard us talk about FIRE on this show before, and we’ll link to some of those episodes in the show notes as well. What is FIRE? From your perspective, what does it stands for or what does it mean? What’s the purpose? What’s the goal?

[0:10:57] RP: I don’t think there’s a true definition of FIRE. I think it’s whatever individual to each person, what they think it means. I think of it as a maybe a money philosophy or a life strategy. It stands for Financial Independence Retire Early. At the heart of that, I really think it’s, if you hit a point, there’s really a threshold where your passive income supersedes your living expenses. Passive income can include a lot of different things. Traditionally, people are thinking their retirement accounts, the 401(k). But you’ve got potentially rental income, you have Social Security, you have maybe a side hustle. I even put in PRN and part-time work. It’s definitely more passive than thinking about your classic W2 jobs.

If you hit a point where let’s say, it cost you $40,000 to live each year, and you have a point where your investments, and all of your other passive income, supersedes that number, then you really don’t have to work at your job anymore. That’s where that second half of retire early comes into play.

[0:11:54] TU: Let’s give an example, Riley. I’d love for you to chime in here about what you do and don’t like about this example. To your point, there’s no uniform, accepted definition of what it means to be financially independent. But as you’re alluding to, you get to this point of either assets diversifying your income, other sources of income, such that you really reach financial independence. Meaning that you no longer rely on your W2 income, but you can build essentially a retirement paycheck or an early retirement paycheck, however, you define that based on these other revenue streams or savings that you’ve built up.

The rule of 25 suggests that, hey, if you take your annual household expenses, we can talk about whether or not you include taxes and that. You multiply by 25. Once you get to that point in terms of savings, you’re able to get to that point of financial dependence. If our annual expenses are $100,000, multiply that by 25, $2.5 million. Really, this comes from the research on the 4% rule, which two and a half million dollars, if I safely withdraw, we can debate that 4%. I can replace that $100,000 and that becomes the source. Now, you start to get a little bit more wrinkles in that when you talk about, okay, is it coming from only your savings? Is it coming from rental income? Is it incoming from Social Security? But without getting too far in the details there, what do you and don’t you like about kind of that back-of-napkin math?

[0:13:22] RP: Yes. I think if someone’s going to Google FIRE financial independence today, at least in the first three paragraphs, they’re going to mention rule 25 or 4% rule because it’s simple, it makes sense. First things, people are like, “I don’t know if that’s true if I trust it. It almost seems too simple, right? But you know, the numbers don’t lie is a great point to make. Truly, we’ve seen people do it, it does work.

But as you mentioned, someone – I’m sure a lot of listeners have yearly expenses around $100,000. They plug that real 25 in, they say, “There’s no way I’ll ever get to $2.5 million.” They immediately dismiss the idea and say, there’s just no possible chance that I’m ever going to hit that point. They say, forget about it, I’m going to retire when I’m 65 years old. That’s my real hiccup with the 4% rule, is I think it dissuades people who might be interested in the idea. Of course, I’m not trying to push this this idea on folks, but I think it quickly dissuades people because they think there’s no way that’s ever going to occur for them.

But this rule puts a lot of assumptions in place, like number one, is they assume that you’ll never make another dollar again. Which, let’s say you’re retiring 10,15, 20 years early. The odds of you never making another dollar is probably pretty – I don’t think that’s going to happen. They assume that your nest egg, your 401(k), your Roth, everything, that meets at $2.5 million is all you have. But you could have a side gig, a side hustle. Let’s say your, for example, your expenses are $100,000 per year, but you’re still making – you’re working a little bit, you’ve got a side hustle going on, you’re doing maybe PRN work. That’s the benefit of being a pharmacist, is we can work one day a week, right? That’s a great aspect of our job.

You’re making $40,000 per year, much less than the average pharmacist makes. But then that decreases your yearly expenses to 60k. So your actual real 25 number becomes $1.5 million, so much more easily ingestible number to take. Another assumption, your expenses are going to remain constant throughout your entire life. But data shows that the older you get, especially at your 70s and 80s, you’re not going to be spending as much as you are in your 40s, 50s, and 60s. You take that in consideration as well. I think my last one is, compound interest is just really hard to visualize, and the amount of time and how it actually works.

If you’re telling somebody, “Hey, really, you should see that extra $2,000 because it’s going to grow to whatever it may be in 20 years.” I don’t know if that’s actually going to work. I can’t see it, but I can see a TV today, or I can see a new car today, and I can get those benefits now. I think it’s a great initial, just quick back-of-the-napkin math on how this works. But I think, too many people are just waiting and say, “Oh, there’s no way I’m going to get there.” A lot of those factors I just described, all of them would lead to a lower number. Potentially, if you can shave off five years of retirement, that’s great as well, right, because you can enjoy those years while you can.

[0:16:02] TU: Yes. I think that’s such a great point, Riley because you’ve highlighted well already that everyone’s plan is going to be different. I think that’s where we need to make sure we’re not falling into the trap of, that there’s one way to do FIRE. Are we talking about a retirement age of 40 or 55, or just a little bit earlier? Late 50s or 60? Is it more of an aggressive timeline, or just a little bit earlier than more of a traditional retirement? Might there be some side additional income? Are we interested in looking at real estate investment? Obviously, post-retirement. What about Social Security? What about health risks and health care. I mean, there’s so many layers to consider. But your point of the rule of 25, I think, often being overwhelming, especially to folks earlier in the journey is a really good one.

I can tell you the number of sessions or presentations I’ve done with folks where, when you talk about saving or investing for the future and compound interest, eyes gloss over. I mean big numbers, $3, $4, $5 million. One of things we really try to do at YFP, is how do we discount that back to today to make that a meaningful number, right? We can run an estate calculation and show that FIRE or not, you need three point, whatever million dollars. Okay. That’s scary. That’s overwhelming. I’m more depressed now about achieving long-term financial independence.

But what does that mean today, in terms of how much I need to be able to save, and what assumptions go into place. That number is probably still going to be big, maybe bigger than we want in terms of, maybe it’s going to take 800, 1,200, 1,500, 1,800 month, whatever, but we can start to put our arms around that. I think these big, huge numbers are like, “All right. Might as well just give up. I’m early in the journey. I’m just going to kind of focus on the here now. Point well taken. I think that can be a challenge.

Riley, let’s take a step back to your FIRE journey. What was the motivating factor or factors in terms of why you wanted to go down this pathway?

[0:17:56] RP: Yeah. I think I reflected on this a little bit recently on why I was so hooked on it when I when I first found FIRE. I think my reasoning has actually changed in the short years since I found it. I’ll take you back to, let’s see, I think it’s 2019 now when I was a PGY1. We have a big cohort of co-residents. There were 16 of us. I think we were talking about what to do with our 403B. As you can probably tell, I have a passion for personal finance, so I knew a little bit more than everyone else, and just trying to provide a little bit of guidance, but didn’t feel super confident, especially talking about that topic.

In residency, we spend so much time talking about certain disease states, and we had antimicrobial stewardship conferences, and ethics conferences, and professionalism. We didn’t spend a single second on personal finance, I remember going to my RPD and asking, “Hey. Can we have someone come in and just talk to us for an hour or two?” There really wasn’t an option for doing that. I thought, you know, why don’t I do it? It was during that, I was trying to treat it like a topic discussion and doing – trying to find empirical and objective data, which I’m sure, you know, it’s very hard to find on the internet.

But I did stumble upon the concept of FIRE and was immediately hooked. I think in the midst of PGY1, I probably should have been spending a lot more time on residency and MBA classes. But all I wanted to do was read about this concept, and like, it doesn’t make sense. There’s no way it’s actually real. Does the numbers line up? There’s a lot of blogs online, that I just kind of took up as much as I could. I think the reasons why – I think there were two main reasons why there were motivating factors for me to pursue. Number one being, I’ve always been a natural saver but didn’t really have a reason for why I was saving, ever since I was a child. I filled a piggy bank up when I got money for my birthday but didn’t know what I was doing. I just felt like, “Yes, I’ll just save it.”

Financial independence was kind of became a Northstar. Whenever I’m making a decision, being very intentional with every dollar. If I’m not going to spend it on one thing, I’m not just saving it, actually. I have another reason. I’m putting it towards another purpose, which was a big idea. Then the second reason, which I think is a big pushback of people who pursue FIRE is, I was once again in the midst of PGY1, probably not loving life at the moment. It’s not sustainable way to live and work. The idea of not working, I think, I was probably drawn to. That’s what a big pushback is. You shouldn’t be pursuing this idea because you want to escape your job and retire early. But you know, now, I absolute love what I’m doing. You think that my desire for financial independence would wane, right? But I’m still – I have a different reason, I guess for pursuing it. Bear with me as I make this point.

I have kind of a strategy now of maximizing overall life happiness, and fulfillment, and meaning, whatever that may be. If I’m trying to solve for maximum happiness, then treating, bringing that down into like every day, what would that look like in different buckets on things that would make me happy, so that’d be a strong social life. Today, there’s spending time with parents and friends, but let’s fast forward 15 years, we’ve got a plan for the future, right? Probably spending time with future children. I don’t think I’m going to have five boys, – sorry, four boys like you do. But if I do, then that’s going to be a higher percentage of my time is me spending with children. That’s one bucket.

Second bucket being health. If I work out today, there’s benefits. But main reason I’m working out is for future me. I want to have as many healthy days as possible, maybe two more buckets here. One of them being philanthropy, giving back in some way, whether that be resources or money. That’s going to skew much more later in life. The last one here, curiosity or learning. I love to travel internationally, read, whatever it may be. I stick with my current W2 job. That satisfies probably three of those four buckets. I got to get sense of social life. Definitely, a sense of philanthropy. It’s a great thing about being a pharmacist, is we have very fulfilling jobs.

Then definitely fulfilling that, that learning bucket. But I spend 45, around 45 hours of my waking life per week on this job. So it’s not filling everything, every single bucket. There’s plenty of other buckets that I’m not going to go into. If I’m trying to solve for maximum fulfillment, and happiness, I’ve just got a pretty high degree of confidence that in 15 years, or 20 years, or 10 years, I’m not going to want to spend 45 hours per week on this one job. I’m going to have a lot more other pursuits that are going to help me lead fulfilling and happy life. Let’s fast forward, let’s say 15 years. Maybe I want to spend 20 hours per week at my job, maybe at zero. If I’m lucky, maybe it’s 60, maybe I absolutely love what I’m doing, then that’s great.

I want to give myself the ability, and flexibility to make that decision when the time comes. That’s where financial independence comes in. If you save a little bit more now, that gives you the ability to make that decision down the line.

[0:22:24] TU: Riley, that’s beautiful. I’m glad you address this equation of solving for maximum fulfillment, maximum happiness. Actually, the research on this topic is fascinating, around deriving happiness from money, and how we connect the two. I think that it’s a natural evolution to be thinking about that, especially when you build a strong financial foundation. It’s hard to see that when you’re in the thick of all these decisions when you’re, obviously, you work through the student loans, you’re making a good income, you’re working full time, you’ve got a lot of places you can optimize a plan. I think that’s when you can really start to have some of that peace of mind, and be worried about things like solving for maximum happiness and fulfillment. Because you’ve got a strong foundation of what you’re growing from. I think that, too often, when we talk about investing, or savings goals, we leave out the so what. What’s the purpose? What’s the point? What’s the why? I think pharmacists, especially very analytical folks, I think we can get all excited sometimes about the spreadsheets. Hey, I’m on path to save $2.4 million. What’s the purpose?

If we ask that question of what are we trying to accomplish, what are we trying to achieve, and how do we reconcile taking care of our future selves while also living a rich life today? Both are important. I think one of the knocks, and I’d love to hear your thoughts on. I think one of the knocks of the FIRE community would be, typically we’re looking at very aggressive saving rates, right? There’s all different types of FIRE and we’ll talk about that here in a moment. But usually, we’re defining FIRE, and aggressive pursuit of financial independence by fairly high savings rates, more than the typical 10% to 20%.

So one of the knocks may be, well, are you giving up living a rich life today for a future point, that may or may not be what we envision that to be, right? I’m thinking about this, because I just finished the book, Die with Zero by Bill Perkins. He talks beautifully in a very non-traditional, non-financial planner way about ultimately, the goal being that we die with zero. He makes a strong case, I think that in your 20s, and 30s, and 40s, there is spending that needs to be done towards what you’re talking about this maximum fulfillment.

How have you reconciled this poll between aggressive saving? I can punch that in the calculator. I see the compound interest growing, but I’m also at an age where I can and should experience some of these beautiful things in life. I’d love to hear your thoughts.

[0:24:50] RP: Well, you beat me to it. I actually also did – I also finished Die with Zero recently within the last couple months. I’ll be honest, has shifted my mentality a little bit as I was someone that can delay gratification, right? That was kind of my philosophy. If I want to do something today, let’s wait. I can double it in 10 years. It’s going to be just as much benefit or more benefit when I’m so saving for my 40s, is kind of a mentality I’d had.

But what Bill Perkins says in that book is very good idea, and something I’ve taken into consideration is, let’s think about, “Yeah, think about our life as a whole. If my goal is to maximize happiness today, but also in the future, there’s a balancing act because you need to spend more money today. You need to spend some money today in order to enjoy your life today. I was, let’s say, for the last couple of years, I was probably a little low on that end. I was saving a lot more money, and decreasing my expenses, and focusing on student loans, and maybe sacrificing a little bit. I will shift and have shifted a little bit in that regard towards enjoying life today.

I will say, a benefit for myself and maybe other listeners is, we have above-average income. When you’re looking at financial independence, and decreasing your expenses, and having that difference in what you’re able to save, because you’re spending less than what you’re earning, it’s a lot harder for somebody with an income of $60,000 per year. But as a pharmacist, I really don’t even feel like we have to sacrifice as much as others, because we just – as long as you’re intentional with your spending, and you’re cutting out unnecessary things, then, you’ll be able to achieve some sort of savings goal. You’re not depriving yourself and eating rice, and beans every day.

For myself, as I mentioned, being early on, I’ve been able to reduce lifestyle as much as possible, so I don’t live a lavish life. If someone else has an expensive $100,000 per year, it’s going to be a lot harder to cut out. Let’s say $40,000 out of that budget, or $20,000. But I never allowed myself to reach that level. I’ve never really felt that I’ve been sacrificing anything on this journey.

[0:26:46] TU: Let me prod a little bit more here, Riley, because this to me is a fascinating topic where I can talk with two pharmacists making the same exact income. Let’s assume they’re living in the same cost-of-living unit type of situation. But one can be living 95% to 100% of their income as their expenses, and a lot of that even being fixed expenses. Someone else maybe has find a way for that to be, I don’t know, 25%, 35%, 45%, or even, let’s say 50% or 60%.

I think often, what you see is, the home, or the car, those are probably two of the biggest things that you see that might be contributing to that. Sometimes private education would be a big contributor, as well. Saving for kids college, things like that. But two pharmacists, same income, same position in terms of cost-of-living area, but very different in terms of cash flow margin that they created. I think it would be helpful for our listeners to hear, for you and your situation as much as you’re willing to share, what has the strategy been. You mentioned before, continuing to try to live like a resident while you’re paying on your student loans. I sense you’ve probably have pulled off of that a little bit. But have you intentionally kept down on house, or you’ve decided to continue to rent, not carry carpet? What has been the strategy that has allowed you to keep those fixed costs low?

[0:28:05] RP: I think first and foremost, financial confidence is important, knowing reasonable – knowing why you’re investing something, you’re saving in the correct location. For example, high-yield savings account. Just making sure that you know you’re doing correctly with where your money is going, has been important for myself. I’m not scared to look at my checking account, right? I think there’s a lot of people who say, “I don’t want to look at it.” If you can spend a little bit of time to just be confident in what you’re doing, and have some sort of strategy in place, and be intentional with – you don’t need to track every single dollar, but just the big things.

I think low-hanging fruit, is what I tell clients. Let’s not make 100 little decisions, let’s make two or three big decisions. For myself, yes, I don’t carry a car payment. I did actually upgrade from a beater of a car that probably I could – I did sell for $1,000, so I’ve upgraded in that realm, but I had drove that car throughout pharmacy school. I do still rent for housing. I live in the Pacific Northwest. So yes, housing a little bit more expensive, but it makes sense financially. I looked into purchasing. I was actually going – shout out to the real estate podcast with David and Nate. I was with the first cohort of the None to One Program. I was looking at actually purchasing a condo and house hacking didn’t make financial sense. It made sense for me to continue renting there.

[0:29:16] TU: Riley, let me just interject here because I hear weekly if not daily, that, Tim, what do you mean like equity and homeownership? It’s always better to own than it is to rent. I think this is one of the stories that we’ve just accepted without running the numbers. Don’t get me wrong, there are scenarios where certain parts of the country, owning based on the market, based on what’s happening, based on interest rates, based on cash you have, based on appreciation. That makes sense, but I think we blindly accept this, especially higher cost of living areas. We tend to vastly underestimate the cost of homeownership on an ongoing basis. So we look at rent value, we look at mortgage payment, and we stop there. I would just love for you to help me make this case, that sometimes, renting makes sense over homeownership, and I think we really got to run the numbers.

[0:30:11] RP: The problem is, it’s the numbers. Humans are humans, right? They feel – you take into consideration, “Oh, I’m much more safe. I’ve been told by my parents, and my parent’s parents that buying is, you have to go as soon as you can. That’s the way to go. Once again, it’s a lot easier to see a house value go up in five to 10 years, rather than really knowing exactly how much would I have put in if I’d invested in it. You can run those numbers as well, right? The numbers, once again, numbers aren’t lying to you. I think it’s just tough because yes, that’s what we’ve been told to do. It doesn’t make sense everywhere. Sometimes, that’s the caveat, as well, as you know, it does make sense maybe in the Midwest. But for other folks, it’s not the case. If we’re all robots, then I think a lot more people would be renting, but it’s just unfortunately not the case.

[0:30:56] TU: That’s good. Now, you can get the hate mail as well as me.

[0:30:57] RP: Exactly.

[0:31:00] TU: Hey, I want to ask you a question. Actually, I hadn’t planned on asking you, which is interesting. Something I’m picking up on as we’re talking here, is I sense that you’ve used some words around the emotional side of money. Confidence, I can tell you have a confidence around your money. I can tell that there’s not a fear associated with money. You obviously have more of an analytical mindset, but you’re also considering – we talked about living a rich life, and kind of balancing the two of those out. So often, myself included, and it’s true for everyone listening. How we approach our money today, is a conscious or subconscious reflection of how we grew up around money.

In some cases, we grew up in an environment where it’s a very open conversation, it’s one that’s not only talked about, but it may not be a stressful, relatively even emotions, more of an abundance type of mindset. Other situation, I talked with folks where it was a very hostile environment or an environment where you just don’t talk about money, whatsoever, and you see those patterns carry out. So I would love for you to just give us a sneak peek as I pick up on the themes of confidence and security around money and more of a positive emotional approach towards money. Can you attribute? Did you raise up in an environment where it was a safe emotional landscape for learning about and growing your knowledge around personal finance?

[0:32:22] RP: I would say it was definitely a safe environment, but it was not – I did not grow up with parents telling me how much money they made. Oh, you need to – I did – I mean, for example, I chose a state school, I knew enough to know about the cost of private school versus public school, and what that would be down the line. That wasn’t – told, “Hey, it makes a lot more sense for you to make a decision by peers, or my parents, or anything. I don’t really attribute a lot of it to them being extremely open. But for example, I did have a Roth IRA, I think when I was 18 years old, so my mom helped me with that. I’ll give her credit there.

[0:32:55] TU: [Inaudible 0:32:55] a tuner.

[0:32:57] RP: Exactly. That was all her, so I’ll give her all the credit there. But anyway, I also had a financial advisor that she put me in touch with who had me investing in a taxable brokerage account when I clearly could have put more money in my Roth and stuff that didn’t make any sense. So I had to pull away once I felt more confident in myself a few years after that. We weren’t experts, but I definitely – I think it’s rare for somebody to have a financial advisor in a Roth account in their teams. It will attribute some of it to that. Yes.

[0:33:22] TU: It’s something I’m thinking a lot about Riley with my four boys, and I would encourage the listeners. I’m fumbling through it, I don’t have the answers. I’ve read books on teaching kids about money. I’m convinced, I think, and maybe I’ll tell you otherwise in three years if I screw it all up. But I’m convinced that 80% of it is just what they are experiencing, they’re hearing. It’s not the intentional teaching. I think there’s a place for that, like, “Hey, let me sit down. We can talk about compound interest and investing in Roth IRAs. But I think it’s more of what they’re picking up on around the emotional cues, the stress or lack thereof, whether or not it’s an open conversation. I think that is so foundational to their relationship with money.

What’s so hard about that, I guess it can be encouraging or discouraging depending on how you approach money is like, that stuff tends to come out. We’re, again, carrying that on generationally. Often, the stress or the positive environment, if it’s the opposite around money, that just is the undertone of the house, and you’ve got to be really intentional to shift it. Another topic for another day, but I think around emotional relationships, how we grew up with money. Even hearing you talk about your mom, and a Roth, and experience with an advisor clearly had an impact on you and your journey.

Let me shift gears and talk about the types of FIRE. Again, I think for folks that are just learning about FIRE for the first time, they may read a few blog articles, look at very aggressive saving rates without realizing there’s a wide range of how you may approach this. Whether it’s more of a traditional FIRE, a lean FIRE, a fat FIRE. Tell us about that these different terms and the path that you are choosing as it relates to your own FIRE journey.

[0:35:05] RP: In my mind retirement is a number of value, not a date, or an age, right? But everybody’s going to be different, and your FIRE calculation takes into consideration mainly how much you’re going to spend each year. So someone who spends $40,000 in a year versus someone who spends $150,000, in a year is going to lead completely different lifestyles, and probably take different actions to hit that point of financial dependence throughout their lives. That’s where these different names come from is, you know, FIRE’s become big enough that there’s been subcommunities of people, lean FIRE. I don’t know the definition. It’s maybe less than $40,000. Fat FIRE is, people got five plus million dollars.

I’m happy that that makes sense because people can be like – like-minded folks can learn from each other in that realm. I’ll be honest with you, I don’t really look at – consider myself in any of those categories. I’m early enough along the pathway that I don’t really spend time stressing over it, because I know enough that I know that things are going to change on the future. We’re great at acknowledging how much we’ve changed in the last five years, but we still think we’re going to be the same person in the next five years, which doesn’t make any sense. I know I’m going to be different enough in ten years. I’m going to change a little bit enough to know that my expenses can change, my family situation is going to change.

But for myself, I kind of have just general numbers. I’m probably going to spend more than $40,000 in a year. I know myself well enough that I’m probably going to spend less than $120,000 per year. Do that rule of 25. I’ve got a pretty big wide margin, but there’s enough time that’s going to pass. There’s really just no point in stressing over and running the numbers, and some people love running these calculators and saying, “Oh, this is exactly. That’s my point.” That’s going to change so many times. There’s going to be so many factors that I don’t really bother myself with it.

[0:36:41] TU: Let’s shift and talk more about the strategy of getting to that number. You mentioned early on in the episode that often, people run a rule 25, or some type of FIRE calculator. They see a big number, they get overwhelmed, they shut down the computer, and they say, “All right, let’s move on. I think, even if folks can work through that, the next step can be just as overwhelming, which is, “Well, how do I get to that number, right? I mean, when I get the chance to talk with groups about investing, what I often say is, yes, we’ve got to know where we’re going, but then we’ve got to know how we’re going to get there. Then we’ve got lots of wrinkles to consider, 401(k), 403(b), Roth IRAs, brokerage accounts, HSAs, all types of vehicles to achieve that. Then within those accounts, we’ve got to choose how we’re going to allocate that. That would be the asset allocation part of the plan.

Again, eyes gloss over at that point of, “Wow, this is a lot to consider.” Tell us about, not advice for everyone listening, but tell us about how you approach your investing strategy as it relates to not just identifying that number, but how you’re going to get there.

[0:37:47] RP: Yes. Tim, we’ve used the word optimize quite a bit, but I’m definitely not – I’m not going to optimize as much as possible in this category, I like to keep things pretty simple. Yes, my strategy myself is, I’m actually currently 100% stocks, all broad-based index funds, keep the expense ratio as low as possible. That’s every account. All my 401(k)s, or HSAs, or my Roth IRA, everything is – different custodian will have a different five-letter or three-letter process, but as long as it’s US stock market or international stock market, that’s the process.

I know that numbers-wise if my investing timeline is, let’s say, 50-plus years, but the time to actually sell a stock is more than 10 years. To me, just the numbers, I just kind of try to pretend I’m a robot and don’t look at the stock market in the last year because I know that odds are, it’s going to go up in the next 10 years. And you want to hit the point where, let’s say, within five years of cutting back or selling any of stocks, and switching add bonds. You can do bond 10 to whatever it may be. But I keep things pretty simple now, just a handful of different low-cost, broad-based index funds.

Then the strategy around what accounts to put them in. Of course, prioritizing your tax-advantaged accounts. Kind of have a mental, financial order of operations, I guess what I would call it that I’ve been using, as I’ve gone through the process. For example, student loans is pretty high up on the list, and I’ve been able to cut that out. But first and foremost, think about this as an emergency fund, and then getting your 401(k) match. Then I put HSA up there at the top, because it’s your dual tax-advantaged account and my student loans filled in that slot there, and pulling that out, then it’s to a Roth IRA.

With my income now, very fortunate that doing the backdoor Roth IRA option. Then it’s back to the 401(k), and maxing out the 401(k). Those are pretty much all your tax-advantaged accounts. If someone’s gotten to that point, and they’re still able to invest in money, which I’m fortunate to be able to do it now is pretty – I think, if you look online, there’s a lot of people who say, yes, those are probably your top five categories, and list to go through in different orders, depending on each person. Especially if you have student loans, and you’re doing PSLF, it’s going to be completely different. You might prioritize your 401(k) first because you want to reduce your adjusted gross income.

But once you’ve hit all those tax-advantaged accounts, that’s why I did the None to One Program with the YFP Real Estate with David and Nate. Because you know, I was thinking, “Okay. Let’s look into real estate.” Since that didn’t pan out currently, and it probably will in the future, I just put the rest into a taxable brokerage account in the same low-cost, broad-based index funds. So keeping it simple once again.

[0:40:22] TU: Riley, address for me a common objection, which people have is, “Hey, I want to retire early.” I don’t know exactly when that will be, but let’s say late 40s, early 50s. Kind of a moderate to aggressive timeline versus a traditional retirement age. I’ve got all these assets tied up in retirement accounts, where I’m going to take on a penalty if I take it out before the age of 59 and a half. Insert brokerage account is one way to mitigate that. You astutely mentioned that you’re obviously optimizing your tax accounts before you get to that point. How have you thought through a reconciled what you may need from a point of retirement, which is unknown until you get to that age where you can draw from those accounts, and how you might mitigate some of that risk?

[0:41:05] RP: Yes. I think of them in these three different categories, your pre-tax, your post-tax, and then your tax brokerage accounts. I think there’s – I’m sure there’s an ideal percentage where if you’re going to retire at age 45, for example, you want to have a good amount in your taxable brokerage account, right? Because you can’t get to your tax-advantaged accounts earlier on. But there’s, for example, currently, a Roth IRA conversion ladder is one process that people take in place, and they’re able to do that.

I think a simple strategy is make sure that all of those buckets have someone in there, so then you have the flexibility to do what kind of, whatever you want to do, whatever makes sense to you at the time. In that time, luckily, since I’ve been able to, I started the Roth IRA early on. I think that’s the one that people are going to have less on in life since I had that at age 18. But at times, I’m at a point where I want to scale back, I’ll have enough in the three buckets, and I’ve learned enough about the different strategies in place that I’ll figure it out when the time comes, is kind of my philosophy.

[0:42:01] TU: Awesome, one thing you mentioned Riley as we wrap up here, I think you mentioned during your residency year, you’re out learning about FIRE, you’re on various websites. There’s some great resources out there, blogs, podcasts, books. Anything you’d recommend to our listeners that you found to be especially helpful and insightful in your FIRE journey at least on the beginning as you’re learning more about this topic.

[0:42:23] RP: I quickly moved from – I think that the most resources out there are going to be in the blog space. If you look up different blogs, there’s probably plenty of them. The first one I would recommend is called the mad scientist. That’s where you get into the numbers of it. Of course, Mr, Money Mustache is probably the next one that people are going to find. He’s probably the most well-known and – if anyone’s going to find FIRE, first, they’ll probably going to find him.

Then for podcasts, the first 100 episodes of podcasts called Choose FYI. One of the co-hosts there was a pharmacist. It might be a little bit outdated now since those first 100 episodes are pretty old. Other podcasts I like listening to, Earn & Invest by – he’s called Doc G, Afford Anything by Paula Pant. Then books-wise, there’s some great ones out there, some classic like your money and your life. It’s just great, because it’s learning about the concept of your trading, your life hours to make money, and then you’re spending that money to get more of your life hours back.

Touched a little bit on Die with Zero. I’ll definitely be promoting that. That’s for folks that are maybe learning to, like myself, to maybe spend a little bit more, and enjoy more of life today. If you want to have a stress-free confidence on index funds, Simple Path to Wealth by J. L. Collins is a great book as well.

[0:43:30] TU: Great stuff. Library of information that you recommended. We will link all of those in the show notes. For folks that are listening, trying to write that down, don’t worry, go to the show notes. We’ll link those out. Great recommendations. Riley, really appreciate your time, your insights, your perspective. I love your intentionality around this topic. I love your financial IQ. I appreciate you sharing your journey, especially on the front end of this, and look forward to seeing, and track you along the way.

[0:43:52] RP: Yes. Thank you. This was an absolute blast. I love talking about this topic. Thanks for having me.

[OUTRO]

[0:43:56] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it’s not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog post, and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates publish. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 221: One Pharmacy Entrepreneur’s Journey to FIRE

Posted on September 16, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

One Pharmacy Entrepreneur’s Journey to FIRE

On this episode, sponsored by Thoughtful Wills, Michelle Lamb discusses her journey towards achieving FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early).

About Today’s Guest

Michelle Lamb currently works in two very different areas of pharmacy and feels she has found the perfect balance of creativity, flexibility, and job satisfaction. She works in a 1099 contractor position as a Senior Care/Pharmacy Consultant providing pharmacy inspection services for long-term care facilities. She supplements this income with a part-time W2 position (25 hours per week) providing weekly inspection services for hospital drug rooms with a small group of surgical centers. Each job entails some driving but allows her to set her schedule. She has the tax advantages of a small business owner with her nursing home consulting but also receives a full benefits package with her part-time W2 position.

In addition, Michelle is the Founder of LTC Pharmacist Connection, a networking group of over 4000 current (and future) pharmacists in long-term care dispensing and consulting. She plans to release a review book this fall for pharmacists wanting to specialize in geriatrics or studying for their board certification in Geriatric Pharmacy. In addition, Michelle also provides resume reviews for pharmacists planning to enter the field of long-term care pharmacy and writes and helps with an occasional CE program or speaking engagement. She has also partnered with the local university and their student engineers to redesign a product currently used in the drug disposal process.

Michelle’s passions include listening to podcasts, particularly about personal finance. She is a member of the FIRE movement and plans to have the option to retire at 55 with a FIRE number of 1 million supplemented by a small pension from the teachers retirement system. She obtained a savings rate of almost 40% last year and is on track for 25% this year. Her ultimate goal is to reach FI the year her younger son graduates from high school. He has special needs (Down syndrome), and Michelle would like to celebrate his graduation by obtaining a “work is optional” status.

Summary

Michelle Lamb discusses her journey towards achieving FIRE (Financial Independence Retire Early). She shares her motivation to pursue FIRE, how she is on the FIRE path despite graduating with student loan debt, and her timeline to achieve FIRE. Michelle also explains how her business, LTC Pharmacist Connection, intersects with her FIRE journey.

Many pharmacists with student loan debt hear about FIRE and the FIRE movement and think the goal is unreachable. Michelle is one pharmacist who has managed to tackle her student loan debt while committing to FIRE. After watching a video from Mr. Money Mustache about FIRE, Michelle was skeptical but inspired. Following the advice of her tax professional, she discovered that her financial independence was within reach – about ten years from now! Michelle has done this by intentionally contributing funds to her retirement accounts and investments annually while making strategic decisions regarding her student loans, making additional payments rather than simply paying the minimum.

After achieving FIRE, which includes paying off her home, Michelle plans on having time to take care of her family, as her timeline links up with the high school graduation of her son. Michelle’s plans include travel, a rental in Colorado with a lake view, and spending time enjoying live music.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Michelle, welcome to the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast.

Michelle Lamb: Hi, Tim. Thanks for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, many of those that are listening know that this past spring, we launched our latest book, “FIRE Rx: The Pharmacist’s Guide to Financial Independence,” written by Dr. Jeff Keimer. And therefore, excited to feature you and other upcoming guests to share real-life pharmacist FIRE stories. And for folks that are listening that want to pick up a copy of that book, “FIRE Rx,” they can do so by visiting YourFinancialPharmacist.com/FIRE. Coupon code INVESTRX will be good for 10% off. Michelle, before we jump into your FIRE journey, share a little bit about your pharmacy background, where you went to school, when you graduated, and the work that you’ve been doing as a pharmacist since.

Michelle Lamb: Sure, Tim. I would be happy to. So before I went to pharmacy school, I graduated with a degree in mechanical engineering from the Colorado School of Minds in Golden, Colorado. My part-time job while I was in engineering school was at a small family pharmacy and really enjoyed that. And kind of at one point decided that I wanted to go to pharmacy school and maybe go back and buy that pharmacy someday. Things didn’t quite work out that way. When I went to pharmacy school, my eyes got quite opened to a lot of different areas, many niches and the clinical roles and so forth that are available. So started pharmacy school in Tulsa, Oklahoma, at the University of Oklahoma in 2004, graduated in 2008, and then completed a residency in community pharmacy, followed by about five years in academia with a focus on ambulatory care. After that, I did a small stint part-time as a hospital pharmacy manager in pediatric inpatient behavioral health. Did that for about a year, really enjoyed the hours and the flexibility. It was Monday-Friday from 10-2. Doesn’t get much better than that. My kids were young. But after a year, I decided that I wanted to work full-time and really try to make a dent in those student loans. At that point, that’s when my career really took a pretty big change. I found a job for long-term care consulting on a ListServ and looked into it, and it was really quite different than anything I had ever done. Primarily in the sense it was pure contract, a 1099 job. I was a little bit nervous about not having benefits and having to navigate health insurance and retirement all on my own, but when I looked at the compensation and the flexibility, I thought, you know, I’m going to give this a shot. So that’s sort of how I entered the world of long-term care consulting and did that for about five years. And then COVID hit. I imagine like you, my world really turned upside down, especially as an employee entering nursing homes. I went from going to about 20 facilities and driving 5,000 miles a month to overnight not driving at all.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Michelle Lamb: My work went completely remote in a matter of just a few hours. So of course that was last spring, and after a few months of working remote and being able to knock those chart reviews out from the comfort of my own home, I thought to myself, you know, I really think I can get a second job. And a little bit scary, but looking at student loans and some of my long-term goals, which included FIRE as I’m really excited to talk about, I picked up a second part-time job providing hospital inspections of their drug rooms. In Oklahoma, this is a niche area of pharmacy where hospitals able to open up a small drug room without a pharmacist but it does need to be inspected once a week by a pharmacist. And we help monitor their policies and procedures, training, and so forth. So now I’m balancing really that 1099 contract work with a W2 job with benefits and feel that really, that’s the sweet spot. It’s going pretty well.

Tim Ulbrich: And we’re going to come back to that and talk about why that combination of 1099 and W2 has allowed you to progress and advance your financial goals. It’s interesting, Michelle, I don’t think I knew this about you before, but we share a lot in common. While I don’t have a background of being a mechanical engineer, I too graduated in 2008, I did a community residency, I spent time in academia, spent some time in the pharmacy administration world, and we share an interest, of course, and a passion for personal finance. So pretty cool to see those connections. So thank you for sharing your background there. One of the things I want to get right out in the gates on when we talk about FIRE is FIRE, Financial Independence Retire Early, we’ve talked about it on the show before. We had Scott Rickins, author of “Playing with FIRE” on Episode 188, we’ve had a couple blog posts that we’ll link to in the show notes as well. But I think Michelle, when folks hear Financial Independence Retire Early, I think sometimes there’s an assumption of you’re trying to escape or get away from your work because perhaps folks may not enjoy what they’re doing. But as you’re sharing your career story, I can’t help but hear the energy and the enthusiasm that you have for the work that you do. So what is the motivation for you? What’s the why behind your FIRE pursuit?

Michelle Lamb: Gosh, that is a big question. And there’s probably several answers. I’d like to just — you know, you’ve commented on the FIRE movement, Financial Independence Retire Early. I would like to say I am a pharmacist that loves not just my job but I love both of my jobs. So I have no real intention for the retire early part. You know, I may cut back here and there, but I feel blessed to have found a part of pharmacy that I honestly think that I could do for many, many years. I’m completely happy with the work that I do, and it’s really, really satisfying. So for me, I’d like to really focus more on the FI part, which is the financial independence. There are so many reasons that I think that it’s important to just really be able to take some time away from work where in my mind, financial independence that you’ve saved enough money where you could live off some of the proceeds from your investments and not have to work for a few months or even years if you want. I got started late on this journey, so my FI path is probably about 10 years from now. On a personal note, that really corresponds with when my son graduates from high school. He does have special needs, and that puts an extra financial and really emotional burden on a family and finances. So my plan is to really have our house in order so that when he finishes high school that I’m not having to worry about what’s the next step in his journey because my financial journey may be just really, you know, watching out for him and taking care of our family.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think that’s a really important comment, Michelle, and I appreciate you sharing that, is I think the motivation for the FI or for that whole FIRE can be very different, is very different, you know, for everyone. And I think for folks that are listening and hear your story and get energized and excited — and we’re going to dig into that here in a few moments — is really taking some time to reflect on what’s the purpose? Right? What’s the vision for you? You know, sometimes I think we hear that concept of becoming financially free or becoming financially independent, retire early, and it’s exciting. But taking the time to dig a couple more levels deep and peel back the onion of what’s the purpose? What’s the vision? Why are we going to do this? Because I think that folks will really uncover and perhaps folks that are doing this together with someone else on their financial journey, those motivations might be different. I think being able to articulate that is really valuable as one is going throughout the plan. Michelle, you mentioned student loans in your introduction. And so I want to ask and start there in that I think sometimes, pharmacists, especially if they’re carrying around significant student loan debts, we’ve chronicled that to detail on this show, median debt load of a pharmacy graduate in 2021 is $170,000. That number has gone up significantly over the last decade since you and I graduated in 2008. But I think sometimes we hear student loans and we hear FIRE and we think, eh, do these two things really grow and go together? And so tell us about your situation and graduating with student loan debt, what that position looked like, and then how you’ve been able to navigate that student loan repayment while also having FIRE and that journey towards FIRE be possible.

Michelle Lamb: Yeah, that’s a great question, Tim. It really does seem to be a reality of becoming a pharmacist that so many times, student loans are part of that journey. And not just, you know, a few thousand. Often six figures of student loans, which I also had myself as well. I was fortunate that I went to an in-state school, but even despite that, I had well over $100,000 in student loans when I graduated. What was really interesting to me is for a few years, I didn’t really know how much I had, you know? They were in a few different places, and I was just sort of making the minimum payment. As a resident, I didn’t pay anything. I was told I could keep them in deferment, so I did. Just sort of made sense at the time. Then in academia, when I went over and finally had my first full-time job at the university, I would make the payments, but I wasn’t very strategic about the amount that I would pay or how much I would pay, what type of payment plan. You know, it was the first time I’d worked full-time before and I had the money to make the payment they told me to, so I did. You know? I think things really changed for me when I took that 1099 contract job. I realized that I was essentially financially — I had to kind of figure it out myself. I didn’t have an HR department to help me, you know, understand deductions or again, health insurance, you know, things like long-term disability and so forth. So I really sat down and thought, if I’m going to essentially work for myself as a contractor and own my own LLC, I really want to be sharp about how I’ll be able to do this. And so that’s when I really, really started to try to make a dent in those loans, making some extra payments as well. My job took me away from my family some, and so it was an extra layer of responsibility where I wanted to be very clear and intentional with my money. And so I started tracking all of my expenses and started really with Dave Ramsey, which I think is a good place for some people to start, listened to all his podcasts, but then just wanted to learn more, you know, kind of take it a step beyond that. So even despite still having some student loans, I started working very hard to avoid any new debt and pay the loans I have aggressively, avoid consumer debt, and become savvy about what is the interest rate on my loans v. what’s the interest rate on my mortgage v. how is the market returning? You know, do I want to play in crypto a little bit? I don’t know. ANd so I just think really that you can certainly do both. So I still have student loans, but I sort of use just extra or side hustle money to kind of throw that at that and I’m now on track to have them paid off by the end of next year.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. That’s great. And I think it’s a good reminder that often when you’re doing financial planning, you’re doing more than one thing at a time. And so you know, that could be home purchasing and student loans, here we’re talking about aggressive savings and student loans, but you know, certainly an opportunity for others that I suspect — many listeners are listening with a student loan position that is significant and might feel like a barrier to them achieving their long-term savings goals. In terms of your initial interest in FIRE, Michelle, was there a particular “Aha!” moment when you realized that you wanted to jump on the FIRE train? Was there a resource or a talk? Or where did that initial spark come from?

Michelle Lamb: Initial spark came from Mr. Money Mustache. And he has a very interesting and pretty entertaining TED Talk-style video of what exactly does it mean to be able to FIRE. And he often uses I believe it’s the number of tracking your expenses and saving 25x that amount. And the first time I saw that, I just thought to myself, there is no way. It’s absolutely impossible. In fact, the first couple years as a contractor, I didn’t put anything into retirement. You know? I just — no one had taught me how to set up a SEP IRA or how to save money on your own. And after a couple years, I think maybe my second year into it, my tax guy said, “You know, if you would put a little money into retirement, it could really reduce your tax burden.” And I think at that time, he had suggested $18,000. And the way that the timing with the tax worked, I actually was able to save that by the end of that fiscal year. When I realized that it could be done, started to do it, and then after a year or two just watched that compound and really get excited about index funds and just kind of learning about compound interest and watching it grow. So kind of then looking at that in combination with the money I was able to save working for someone else in a W2 position, combining all of that, starting to track it and graph it and project that out about 10-12 years, that’s when it started to get really fun. And now I just kind of throw as much money at it as I can.

Tim Ulbrich: Let’s dig into that a little bit further. I think often the FIRE movement, while there’s many flavors of the FIRE movement, folks may associate very aggressive savings with the idea, again, even though here we talked more about financial independence, less about the retire early, but to get to that point of financial independence, however you’re calculating it, that it may take very, very aggressive saving. So tell us about for you, you know, what is approximately the savings rate that you’re targeting to do? And how are you achieving this among other competing priorities, one of which we already talked about, you know, being student loan debt?

Michelle Lamb: Right. So with the unusual situation of working for myself last year and then most of 2020 being able to work remote and getting paid the same amount in my contract position but having no expenses, picking up that second job made all the difference in the world. In fact, I think I saved so much last year that my accountant said, “You know, you’ve got to be careful. Kind of worried you’re putting these to really maximize your deductions.” So I was able in 2020 to have almost a 50% savings rate.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Michelle Lamb: I completely recognize this will never happen again. It was just sort of a fluke of the times, again, working from home, no travel. You know, when COVID hit, I had refunds come in for trips and concerts and, you know, just subscriptions, gym subscriptions. Money kind of flowed back in and I was making more and had no expenses. So for 2020, I was able to achieve that really high savings rate. Not only that, I’m not scared of investing. I’m really in it for the long haul. So I think when you kind of saw that stock market going down, I look at my investments and I thought, March or April, I was putting extra in. So that really helped for my returns. It’s kind of fun now to look at that yearly return with index funds and kind of see a hit — I think almost a 40% return.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Michelle Lamb: Which that will never happen again. When COVID kind of settled down and the nursing homes opened back up, I had to cut back down on the consulting. And that’s when I picked up also the W2 work. I sort of think of it as a pendulum, you know, that kind of swings some to the left, some to the right, depending on what are the obligations at each role. It’s nice. They balance each other. Now, I would say that my consulting is probably, you know, 10 business days, 8-10 business days a month.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Michelle Lamb: And my W2 position is about 25 hours a week.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Michelle Lamb: So through that W2 role, I maximize my percentage savings rate. I kind of watch it and try to hit I think it’s $18,000 a year now in my 401k. And then I’ll also put in — anything extra from the consulting, I’ll put into my SEP IRA.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Michelle Lamb: So probably looking more 20-25% this year. But again, that just varies with contract obligations and how many hours I’m picking up.

Tim Ulbrich: And I appreciate the comment, you know, Michelle, about the flexibility. Pandemic aside, especially for folks that have young children or even for anyone regardless that things change from any given year, and I think that’s where some of the stress can come from sometimes. If you put a very stringent goal out there, whether it’s 40%, 50% savings rate, you know, things are going to happen. And maybe sometimes it’s higher than that, maybe sometimes it’s lower than that, but that really is the target that you’re trying to shoot for and will require some flexibility to make sure you’re in it for the long run. Michelle, whether that number is 20% or 25% or 30% or 50%, it’s significant, right? And I think that by having the diligence and by having the discipline to put away such a significant savings, that means you are intentionally choosing to not spend that money on other things that could be priorities and goals today. And so there’s a little bit of this delayed gratification to be able to achieve this financial independence. And one of the things we talk about often with our clients at YFP Planning is, you know, we’ve got to be developing a plan that yes, takes care of our future self, but also ensures we’re living a rich life today. And so how have you reconciled that where when you’re saving at a 40% or 50% savings rate, that means that there’s other things that you aren’t doing today. Talk to us a little bit about that.

Michelle Lamb: Yeah, so you know, some of the things that I’m not doing today that I wish I could, I’m probably like a lot of your listeners and a lot of the world that works from home, you know, I office out of my living room. And I’m barely with COVID retreating a little bit. I’m able to have friends over and share time with other people in my home and we’re walking around my desk and my bookcase and my printer. And so you know, kind of putting a big move like that on pause, that’s kind of part of our journey right now. But that’s not to say that you can’t have a high savings rate and just really work hard to save and have a great time too. So one thing I did last year — probably before it got real popular — is I bought a little motor home. It’s a 1978 GMC Midas. In fact, it’s so old, it has a CB radio.

Tim Ulbrich: Oh, wow. Yeah.

Michelle Lamb: Which is super cool, I know. It’s really fun. So you know, I love to take that out to the lake on weekends. And so it could be instead of taking a trip across the country, we maybe go camping at the state park in our little motor home and get outside and enjoy nature. Also, you know, travel mostly in the summer. I love to go see concerts. I went to Colorado last year and fall hits, and now I’m going to be home for awhile.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s neat. And you mentioned a couple mechanisms for saving. I heard you say 401k, I heard you say SEP IRA. And again, that’s because of your split income with the W2 and the 1099 and obviously having your own business with that 1099 income opens up some other savings opportunities. But one of the well-known challenges with Financial Independence Retire Early, especially if folks are planning to start withdrawing that money before the age of 59.5 where we think of traditional accounts being accessible without a 10% penalty, is we’ve got to think a little bit differently about where we’re putting this money. So certainly this is not meant to be investment advice, so I don’t want folks to hear what your investing strategy or plan or where you’re putting in and hear that and say, “OK, that’s what I’m going to do,” right? That may or may not be appropriate, depending on their plan. But tell us a little bit about your strategy for where you’re saving, how you’re saving, I think I heard you talk a little bit more about a passive investing approach, probably an approach you’re keeping the fees low. Tell us a little bit more about the saving strategy.

Michelle Lamb: Yeah, so this is something that it’s taken me a couple years to really even wrap my mind around some of the vocabulary involved. And Tim, you mentioned that you have financial planner services. I would really recommend to anyone that’s looking at saving and investing, considering the FIRE movement, definitely get the help of a professional because there’s just — there’s so much to learn. As a 1099 contractor, again, I didn’t put anything away for the first couple years. And I really, really regret that. But once I got on board with that, I did establish an account with Vanguard. I’m a big fan of their index funds and BTSAX, which is basically just buying a little slice of the market. And I put that money in there and don’t plan to touch it for quite some time. I also am able to put money into my 401k with my part-time employer, and they’ve started matching that, which is fantastic. That’s through a Fidelity retirement target date fund, so it’s kind of fun to watch the performance of those two kind of bounce against each other. I have a small teacher’s retirement from the University of Oklahoma, which is wonderful. That I believe I could actually access a little bit earlier than 59.5. Of course, if you wait longer, you can get out a little bit more. But for me, that would be an option at age 55.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Michelle Lamb: If I choose to need a bucket of money to take out of before then. I also put just a little bit kind of what I’d call the playing-in-the-sandbox money, just a few percentage points of my investment, into ethereum. I don’t know. You know, if Mark Cuban says it’s a good thing, maybe it is. I don’t know. So but anything I put money into, even that play-in-the-sandbox money, I have no intentions to touch it until probably, again, when my kids finish high school, so 8 or 10 years. So I’m really in it for the long haul. You know, I think having a good emergency fund, the 3-6 months of expenses, helps kind of buffer that as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that makes sense. And again, a variety of different options it sounds like. And you have some unique tax considerations as well I suspect as a 1099 employee as well as having W2 income. So I think this is an example, without going down the tax rabbithole, of where good tax planning can supplement good financial planning as well and making sure you’re considering that not only on the accrual phase but also on the withdrawal phase, whenever that would be at a later point in time. Michelle, some of the common objections to the FIRE movement, you know, we talked about one of them already, which I think you addressed nicely, which is hey, you can love your career — and I’m glad to hear that you do, and I think many of our listeners do — you can love your career and still pursue financial independence. I personally think that’s a goal we should all strive towards with the retire early being optional. Other objections are things like hey, if I don’t have my employer, what about things like health care? What about being able to purchase disability? You know, other types of considerations like that. What are we going to do with our time and money? So talk to us about how those objections really have any impact, if any impact, as you think about your FIRE journey over the next 10 or 20 years.

Michelle Lamb: One point I’d like to make is people have this wrong assumption that they should or just have to work until age 60, 65, 70, or higher. And you know, I think the first thing to do is just take a step back and challenge that assumption. You know, what do you honestly — what do you want to be doing in your 50s? And for me, I don’t want to be clocking in somewhere and standing on my feet for a 10-hour shift or I don’t want to be driving across the state in bad weather, dodging tornadoes here in Oklahoma to do my inspections. So I think that’s the first step is kind of to really challenge these expectations. And if you look at the numbers and play with some of the retirement calculators, which I’m sure you’ve got some ideas on, just putting a few percentage points more into your retirement early can make such a difference down the road. So you know, I think that’s a good place to start. There’s so much to be done outside of work for me. It’s travel and camping, being outside, being with my kids, that I want to be able to enjoy that when I’m still young. Now, could there be some problems? Sure. You know, the health insurance one is really tricky. But I think the FIRE movement is getting so strong. There’s lots of great resources to try to even battle that one. One tip I’ve heard — and honestly, I don’t know if this would work or not, but I’ve heard of some people taking a few college classes and trying to get student health insurance. Now, is it going to be the best plan on earth? Or how many hours do you have to take? I don’t know. I’m not in that boat now. But I know there’s some really creative ways to try to tackle that. You know? I think both you and I having taught at a university, even teaching a class at a community college, you know, something where it may be a significant drop in salary, but it could be something that the value of the benefits that come with it could be huge.

Tim Ulbrich: And I love what you said, Michelle, about just challenging the assumption of “traditional retirement age,” right? It’s one of the questions I like to ask pharmacists just to get them thinking. And I can tell sometimes it’s the first time someone’s asked the question is hey, have you thought about what retirement looks like for you, what it means for you? Like what does living a rich life mean to you? You know, if we fast forward 30 years and you look backwards, what needs to happen that you would say, ‘This has been a success’?” And I think sometimes we ask a question of when are you going to retire? And it’s 65, and then we get out our fancy calculators and model out savings rates and all of that. And that has a role or value. But these questions are really important about what matters most to you and what is the value of achieving financial independence? And I remember for me, Michelle, reading several years ago “Four-Hour Workweek” by Tim Ferriss, and I think he talks about the concept of like what if we re-thought of retirement as more of like mini retirements kind of throughout our career and not necessarily in this phase where we work for 30 years then we just all of a sudden stop working. And that resonates with me because I love the work that I do, but I also like to have breaks and I like to have points in time where you can pursue interests, other hobbies, other opportunities. And so I think that integration of work and life will resonate for many folks as well. What is the plan to celebrate, Michelle? So when you reach this FIRE number, you get to that magic FI number, like have you thought about the celebration plan? What’s going to happen?

Michelle Lamb: Oh gosh, well, part of our FI journey involves having a paid-off house.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Michelle Lamb: And so we’re getting pretty close on our home now. And so I think part of that may involve travel as well. I’m a big fan of Colorado, so I have my eye on some senior apartments that are right downtown in Golden, Colorado, for age 55 and up, which is about 10 years for me from now. So you know, maybe renting a cool unit where I could walk along the creek and go see concerts at Red Rocks is pretty appealing to me. Oklahoma has a lot of lakes too though, so I think — you know, travel is different now where you can even do like Tim Ferriss says and take a few months off and work perhaps remotely in different places. But definitely there will be a lake view involved somewhere.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think the pandemic accelerated that, right? I think we’re going to see more creativity and employers being comfortable with some of those more nontraditional models that might be more in line with what folks are desiring today. Michelle, one of the things you mentioned earlier, I think if I heard you correctly, your anticipated FI date is somewhere at about the point where your children will be graduating from high school. And as I hear that, I can’t help but think that this really has been a family journey. And so tell me about as you’ve gone through this journey, obviously there’s decisions that the family is making, one of which I mentioned earlier, if you’re aggressively saving, that means there’s other things that you may not be doing or doing differently. And so how has this impacted the family, both in terms of whether that’s sacrifices or opportunities for the family to have and be on this experience together?

Michelle Lamb: Gosh, Tim, that’s such a great point. My husband is extremely supportive of our journey as well. You know, I’m one of these that I made him sit down and watch Mr. Money Mustache on YouTube, and I made him watch the documentary that came out on the FIRE movement. And he kind of might snooze a little bit, but he’s definitely on board. He owns his own small business as well. And so we definitely work as a team to make that work. Some sacrifices that we’ve made: I think living in a smaller home. We’ve chosen to kind of have our family in a home where maybe not more than one person can go in the kitchen at one time, but that’s not going to necessarily be the case forever. If we move, we’ll have a paid-off home first, probably rent it out for whatever would cover a new mortgage, also with a down payment, and then maybe kind of move on from there.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And I want to wrap up by asking you about part of how I got to know you and your journey is I followed some of the work that you’ve done with the long-term care pharmacist connection. So in addition to your W2 and your 1099 work, you also have started a community of long-term care pharmacists. Tell us a little bit more about that group, why you started that group, and really the goals you’re hoping to accomplish.

Michelle Lamb: Thanks, Tim. So for me, I entered long-term care about five years ago, and my role specifically is nursing home consultation where I go in, I’ll do chart reviews, check the med rooms, check the med carts, and help with med destruction. I absolutely love long-term care. I never thought when I was in pharmacy school that I would enjoy working with the geriatric patient population as much as I do, but I just really love it. I am a member of the Pharmacist Mom’s Group, so shout out to another really cool Facebook group, and my heart would just break when I would see good, hardworking pharmacists and moms just really struggle with some of the expectations that are involved these days in community pharmacy. And it’s probably, gosh, even more so these days with COVID boosters and just ever-increasing expectations. So I would comment every now and then, you know, “Hey, don’t forget about long-term care. I’m genuinely happy. I set my own schedule. I make as much money now as I ever have or did in any other setting.” So just really trying to spread the optimism of this niche that I never learned about in pharmacy school. And I started answering the same question over and over again of, what is long-term care? How do I get in it? And you know, just how do I meet people? So I created a Facebook group called LTC Pharmacist Connection, really just for that purpose where I’d say like, “Gosh, come over to the Facebook group. There’s lots of people with questions about how to make a career change, and let’s bounce ideas off of each other.” That was about three years ago, and I’ve tried to keep the Facebook group just really focused in on pharmacists and interns that want to go in that niche. I think because there’s just a lot of pressure in other types of pharmacy right now, there’s a really growing interest in that. At this point, we’ve got about 4,000 members.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome.

Michelle Lamb: Yeah. And I just am so pleased to see the positivity in long-term care and just the growing opportunities that are really coming up. So it’s a — come check out the group, lots of good networking, some job postings, and I think it’s really helpful.

Tim Ulbrich: And that group is LTC Pharmacist Connection. We’ll link to that in the show notes. Michelle, for you and your journey, resources that have been really helpful in the FIRE journey as well as engaging with the rest of the community. So you mentioned one, Mr. Money Mustache and some of the resources that they’ve had. And I think probably many of our listeners are familiar with some of that work, which is really great readings that he’s been putting out for several years now. What other resources have been really helpful to you on your FIRE journey?

Michelle Lamb: So Tim, kudos to you and your podcast. I will say especially driving 5,000 or 6,000 a month in my car, podcasts have been a great resource to me. I started with Dave Ramsey, and as I learned about the FIRE movement, I found a few others that I really enjoy: Stacking Benjamins is fantastic, also Afford Anything has been a great source of information. Also reading, I would highly recommend a book called “The Simple Path to Wealth.” It really just spells out what do I do when I’ve got debt but I’ve got goals and I don’t know where to start and how do I invest? It really does break it down and is just a great place to start. Excel spreadsheets, you know, track your expenses, track your net worth, track your savings. And also, I really like some of the retirement calculators. You know, I kind of play with my budget and I think, OK, if I put $750 in this month, what would that look like 20 years from now? What if I bumped it to $1,000? What if I took a year off? So just playing with projections has been a big help.

Tim Ulbrich: Great recommendations. We’ll link to those in the show notes. You mentioned the Afford Anything podcast, Stacking Benjamins podcast, the book “Simple Path to Wealth.” I mentioned another resource earlier, “Playing with FIRE” by Scott Rickens, great book, great documentary as well. We had him on Episode 188. And then a shout out to Jeff Keimer, who wrote “The FIRE Rx: How to Retire Early as a Pharmacist Achieving Financial Independence.” And as a reminder, you can pick up a copy of that book at YourFinancialPharmacist.com/FIRE, and you can use the coupon code INVESTRX for 10% off. Michelle, beyond the LTC Pharmacist Connection Facebook group, if someone wants to connect with you, learn more about your story, ask you a question, where is the best place they can do that?

Michelle Lamb: I would have them come over and see me on LinkedIn. Michelle M. Lamb or just look for LTC Pharmacist, and you’ll find me.

Tim Ulbrich: Great. Thank you so much for your time coming on the show, for sharing your journey, and looking forward to following the rest of your FI journey here over the next several years. Thank you, Michelle.

Michelle Lamb: Thanks, Tim.

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YFP 202: How to Teach Your Kids About Money and Investing

Posted on May 6, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

How to Teach Your Kids About Money and Investing

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Tim Ulbrich welcomes Dylin Redling and Allison Tom, creators of Retireby45.com and authors of two books, Start Your F.I.R.E. (Financial Independence Retire Early): A Modern Guide to Early Retirement and Investing for Kids: How to Save, Invest and Grow Money to the show. Dylin and Allison talk about their FIRE journey and share practical advice and meaningful activities to teach kids about money and investing.

About Today’s Guests

They own and operate the website RetireBy45.com, which provides inspiration, tips, and resources for achieving FIRE (Financial Independence/Retiring Early) and making the most of the FIRE lifestyle. In 2020, they wrote and published two books: “Start Your FIRE: A Modern Guide to Early Retirement” and the best-selling “Investing for Kids.”

They love food, fitness, and travel. Their goal of “60 by 60” is to visit 60 countries by the age of 60. They are halfway to their goal with another 10 years to go!

Summary

Dylin Redling and Allison Tom, creators of Retireby45.com and authors of Start Your F.I.R.E. (Financial Independence Retire Early): A Modern Guide to Early Retirement and Investing for Kids: How to Save, Invest and Grow Money, join Tim Ulbrich on this week’s podcast episode. In this interview, focused on their book, Investing for Kids, Dylin and Allison share their creative process and some of the practical and meaningful activities that can be found in the book.

Allison digs into some of the motivations behind Investing for Kids and talks about why they choose to have superhero protagonists. She explains that she and Dylin not only wanted to make the book educational for kids, walking them through basic concepts of personal finance, but also wanted the activities in the book to be fun and exciting for kids to participate in rather than having those activities feel like more homework.

Dylin and Allison also share their own experiences, growing up with different financial knowledge and money lessons, and how those experiences plus a series of calculated financial decisions brought them to be able to retire in their early 40s. Dylin and Allison remark on their time as retirees and the freedom that they have been afforded because of it. Their goal of “60 by 60” is to visit 60 countries by the age of 60. They are already halfway to their goal!

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Dylin and Allison, welcome to the show.

Allison Tom: Thanks for having us.

Dylin Redling: Thank you very much. Great to be here.

Tim Ulbrich: I’ve very much been looking forward to this interview to talk more about your story achieving financial independence and early retirement and more specifically, the work that the two of you did in writing “Investing for Kids: How to Save, Invest, and Grow Money.” And Dylin, let’s start with you only because we share an Ohio State connection since you’re an alum so go Bucks. Why write a book specifically designed for kids about investing? What was the motivation behind your work?

Dylin Redling: Yeah, well, first of all, go Buckeyes. Yes, a great connection there. It’s interesting because I’ll start off with the interesting fact that Allison and I actually don’t have kids. And so you would think that the impetus would have been we had our own kids and we taught them financial literacy and it inspired us to teach more kids. But in fact, we sort of stumbled into this book. This is our second book. Our first book is called, “Start Your FIRE: A Modern Guide to Early Retirement.” And it’s all about early retirement and financial independence, which that book just poured right out of us because it’s something that we live and we know very well. And what happened was the publisher who we worked with on that book came back to us a couple months after that book was published and said, “Hey, we have an idea for this other book. And it’s investing for kids ages 8-12. And what do you guys think because you know about investing and financial concepts, and we think you guys might be able to pull this off.” And we thought, wow, we don’t have kids, we’re not teachers, we don’t hang out with kids. We have a few friends with kids, but we don’t spend a lot of time with them. And so we thought, man, this sounds really challenging and daunting. But it was during the 2020 year of COVID, so we had a lot of time on our hands. So we thought, let’s just go for it. And we dove into it, and it was very challenging because we wanted it to be interesting for kids and informative and fun but somehow, we put our heads together and we had a really good editing team that helped us with some of the concepts to relate to kids. And that’s — and we just dove into it and we just made it happen.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think you guys did an awesome job. You know, one of the things that stood out to me as my wife and I were looking through this book as parents of four young kids trying to teach this topic of money is that’s it’s very hands-on, it’s relatable, it’s digestible, lots of activities, really cool ideas. You know, I often find myself, especially writing, talking about this topic regularly, presenting on this topic, you take for granted how you learned some of this information along the way. You know, I often think, OK, take a concept like compound interest or, you know, mutual funds or index funds or ultimately trying to determine what your retirement savings goals, any of those concepts, and it’s very easy to get lost in the weeds. And I think it’s often hard to figure out, how am I going to break this down and teach this with my children and really work through this? And so I found myself looking through this, not only learning myself of oh, that’s a really neat way to teach a different concept or a very visual way or a nice activity to apply that information. So I think as I looked through this, whether someone is more advanced in their own knowledge and understanding of personal finance or whether they feel like they could also learn from these concepts, either one I think this book could be a really good guide for them alongside of working with their child. So great work in the work that you put together with the book. And Allison, knowing your background is a technical project manager, I’m curious, I mean, how and why did you catch FIRE — pun intended here — with this topic, not only as an individual pursuit for financial independence but also in wanting to help guide others to the work that you’re doing with RetireBy45.com and with the book “Investing for Kids.” Where does the interest come from?

Allison Tom: Part of it is that my college degree is actually psychology and education. So I had all these grand ideas of becoming a teacher, an elementary school teacher, after I graduated from college. But you know, after a couple of years, it dawned on me that frankly, our teachers are woefully underpaid. And there was pretty much there was no clear financial path for me to continue being a teacher making the salary I was making, so I was living in Boston at the time and I moved back to New York where we eventually met waiting tables, of all things. And we came out to San Francisco on a whim, we were on vacation, we were in our mid-20s, we thought, alright, let’s check out San Francisco. And so I bounced around from career to career and ended up on a consulting company that eventually brought me into the technical world of the Bay Area. But you know, so being a project manager is basically being a glorified teacher. So it’s dropping people, wrangling people to do things that you want them to do but do it in a way that makes them want to be — work as a team and learn from each other. So in a way, it was being a project manager was — it had very similar tendencies as it was being a teacher. And so we had always thought, oh, it would be great to retire early, but we didn’t really know what retiring early meant. We thought, oh, 55, that seems like a really good age to retire. It’s earlier than 65, but it seems so far in the future. And living in the Bay Area, our expenses were so high that we were like, there’s no way, even if we’re making decent salaries between the two of us that we’re ever going to retire. But about 11 years or so ago, Dylin came down with double pneumonia and was in the ICU for about 10 days and in the hospital altogether for almost two weeks. And that for us was a light bulb moment because he was within a 50/50 chance that he would make it. And so you know, after that, we kind of thought, OK, do we really want to keep working for the next 25 years or so? And so we kind of like made it our goal to get out of the rat race as soon as we could. And so we kind of fell into by accident. We can talk about that later, but it just — it kind of was a natural progression from all of the things that we’ve been doing over time.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that makes sense. And I appreciate you sharing some of the background and story. We’ll come back to how you got to that point of early retirement, obviously as I mentioned in the introduction, early 40s to be able to accomplish that goal, and we’ll talk a little bit about how you got to that path, why that was possible as well. And so let’s first dig into some of the book of “Investing for Kids.” Let’s start with the main characters of the book, the Dollar Duo: Mr. Finance and Investing Woman. Allison, tell us more about these two characters, how you came up with the idea, why it was important to the overall text, and how those characters can really help the learner, again, 8- to 12-year-old is the target group here, engage with the material throughout the book.

Allison Tom: Well, first of all, it was kind of funny, today is actually Superheroes Day, so —

Tim Ulbrich: There we go.

Allison Tom: It’s a perfect segue into the topic. We were actually taking a walk one day as we were writing the book, and we were talking about politics, of all things. And we were trying to figure out in the administration, whichever administration, whoever won the presidency, what each president could do to make their administration better. And so we kind of were talking and talking about of all things, the Justice League of America and who we would think would be a good fit for making this country a better country. And so the whole idea of the Justice League, kind of thought, we thought, oh, superheroes. Kids love superheroes. Let’s talk to our publisher about bringing in some superheroes. And we were like, well, I don’t know if they’ll go for that, there’s some extra graphics involved and it could be expensive, but we felt that it would really be a good way for kids to relate to finances. And so we kind of pushed hard for this idea of having superheroes teach kids finance.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that stood out to me in addition to how visual it is. This does not — especially for a topic like investing, right, can be weighty at times, it can be overwhelming, I often find myself when I’m giving a talk on this topic, starts with excitement often when we think about what the — and then you get into the weeds and you see the eyes gloss over, right, and other things. And this does not read like a textbook in any way, shape, or form. And I’m grateful for that. So thank you for the illustrations, the activities, the superheroes, but I think it very much reads like an interactive, applicable, nuts-and-bolts, important information, but how do I actually apply it and hopefully get excited about this information. Again, we’re thinking about an 8- to 12-year-old of wanting to really hopefully empower them to be excited with this for the rest of their own financial journey. And I very much read this book, as I mentioned, being a father of four boys who also lives and breathes personal finance, I really do often find myself in conversation with my boys about money. And honestly, I struggle at times with making the topic of money tangible and meaningful. And it can feel abstract, especially when I find myself trying to say and teach a principle that I very much understand but it feels more abstract as I talk it out loud and especially when you start to view it through the lens of a child. And so I like how you start the book with Chapter 1 on Money 101. You cover important topics like money doesn’t grow on trees, ways to earn money, a little bit of entrepreneurship in there, which is really cool, the history of money, where to keep money. And so Dylin, here’s the challenge that I’m seeing with my boys. In the age of credit cards, debit cards, direct deposit, online banking, digital currency, electronic payment methods, it can feel difficult to teach a child about money when you don’t see it. Right? There’s very little actual, physical cash and therefore, it can be hard to connect work and I think the opportunities from work with earning money and therefore, the opportunity to then save and see it grow. So what are some tips and strategies as you put this book together as well as the other teaching you’ve done on this topic about how can we teach kids about money in a way that it can be relatable, it can be tangible, and then hopefully it becomes memorable for them.

Dylin Redling: Yeah, you know, that’s a really good point about money being very digital in this day and age. I remember when I was a kid, one of the coolest things was my grandmother would give me and my cousins 50 single dollars for Christmas and for our birthdays. They would come in a little box just big enough to hold those 50 $1 bills.

Tim Ulbrich: I love that.

Dylin Redling: And — yeah, it was really cool. And you know, $50 back then for a kid was a lot of money. And those 50 $1 bills would last a really long time. I would take them into the arcade, into the pizza parlor, whatever. And so maybe one way to do it is to actually bring back physical money. And I don’t think the amount really matters that much. But like you said, I mean, being able to tangibly feel it, see it, and understand it, it helps a lot more if you’re using physical money. And I’ll actually give an example of that we used on our blog and in actually “Start Your FIRE” book. I don’t think we mentioned it in “Investing for Kids,” but it’s a little story I like to tell about a money lesson that I actually learned from Allison when we were waiting tables in New York. So we met in a big restaurant in Times Square, and Allison grew up with a little bit of a better financial education in her household than I did. My single mother was wonderful, but it was all paycheck-to-paycheck, there wasn’t a lot of saving or investing. So I came into our initial relationship not very good at dealing with money. So anyway, we were waiting tables. So all of our money pretty much was in tips. So we would have tons of cash. And I remember just putting the money — I would wad it up into balls, I would stuff it into all four of my pockets because I was busy. And then we would go out afterwards and Allison saw how I was treating my money, and she was like, “What are you doing? How do you even keep track of that? That’s awful.” And so she taught me this little lesson. And she doesn’t even remember this because this was 25 years ago, but it stuck out in my head. And basically, I call it the Wallet Lesson. When you take all of your bills and you put them nicely, neatly in order from small to big or big to small, whatever works, fold it neatly into your wallet. And it’s really simple, but the reason it was impactful for me is because it just got me to think about how to respect and treat money. You know, you work really hard for money —

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Dylin Redling: And if you don’t treat it well, you don’t respect it, you know, that $50 might not seem like a big deal. But when it gets to $100,000 or $500,000 and you don’t have that same respect and feel for what that money represents and how hard it was to earn it, you’re not going to put it and treat it and save it and protect it as well as you could.

Tim Ulbrich: Such a good example of a behavioral move, right? The number of dollars didn’t change, but how you treated them, how you respected them, how you viewed them, and I think many of our listeners, we talk on this show often that I believe personal finance, it’s about the math and it’s about the behavior, and both of those are very important and some of those types of moves or here, teaching kids in that way, I think can be very powerful as well. Allison, Chapter 2, save your money, you have an activity titled “Be an Interest Rate Detective.” I love this. I thought this was a really cool interactive activity where you challenge the reader to work with an adult to research interest rates for a local bank savings account, a CD, so a Certificate of Deposit, and an online savings account. So again, this was just one of many example activities you have throughout the book, but why is an activity like this so important in terms of someone being an interest rate detective to experience and go through as they begin their journey of understanding some of the basics of investing?

Allison Tom: So part of it is we wanted all the activities to be something that kids could do with the adult in their life. And we didn’t assume that every child has a parent because we know in this modern day and age that families are different nowadays, and you might have two moms or two dads or a grandmother or grandfather or a guardian of some sort. So we wanted something that people could do together with — kids could do together with someone else. And we thought, oh, it’s going to be interesting because banks are closed during COVID. When we were writing the book, it was right in the heart of shelter in place. But we thought, well, you know, kids have access to — most kids have access to a computer, they can at least walk around to a local bank and banks always have their advertisements on their windows with their interest rates. But we thought it would be an interesting way for kids to see what is in their environment and practice some good behaviors like oh, what does interest rate mean? What is APR? Those are, they’re jumbled letters and so you actually learn what the acronym stands for. And so we want to make sure that kids could kind of connect their physical world to their these abstract ideas about money. So all these activities are kind of a way to get kids to start thinking about it, and we were like, oh, kids aren’t really going to want to do activities, it’s extra homework. So we tried to make them fun and things that they could actually do and feel like they were learning something.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think this was a good example where the activity really, to me, is a rabbit hole of other learning, right? So if you go to the bank and do this activity, just like you suggested, Allison, it leads to other conversations and questions like, what is the federal reserve? And what is an insured account? What does that mean? You talk about that in the book, you know, how do you explain the federal reserve? What is compound interest? Why is that so important? What is principle? What’s interest? What do terms mean? And I think it, again, leads to further conversations, which obviously hopefully spark some motivation and curiosity to learn more on this topic. Dylin, in Chapter 3, Introduction to Investing, you cover very important topics, you know, why to invest, risk v. reward — and I love the Risk-o-meter throughout the book, that was really neat — liquidity, the importance of conducting research, and connecting back to my previous comment about the difficulties teaching a child about money when it may not be tangible, you can’t see it, can’t feel it type of a mindset, I think this is another area where parents may feel challenged to teach a child the importance of investing when again, it might feel somewhat abstract and here, we’re talking about delayed gratification, right? So not spending money on something today that has an instant reward. I think back to my childhood, it was driving to the corner store, buying baseball cards, buying candy, you earn the money, you spent the money, you saw the reward instantly. So here, the activity on investing, which I thought helped to really drive this concept further, you talk about an activity of picking a stock and really going through that process of understanding what’s involved there. So talk us through that type of an activity, what’s involved in that, and why that’s important to help a child relate to the concepts of investing.

Dylin Redling: Yeah, sure. It’s interesting because I can also relate it to how Allison and I do our own investing. And most of what we do, to be honest, are buying mutual funds and index funds. We don’t do a lot of single stock buying. However, there are some advantages to just helping a child or anybody, really, think about, well, if you were to buy a single stock, what would the thought process be when you do that? We actually just wrote an interesting post on our blog just about a week ago where we had $10,000 that we wanted to experiment with. And what we did is we selected five different stocks to invest that $10,000. So $2,000 per stock. And I went through the process in that blog post of why we would do this. And it wasn’t to get rich quick or to see what would happen in a week or a month. This particular blog post talked about a one-year time frame. And it’s the same with the activity for the child. I think we used a shorter — a relatively short time frame so they could at least measure their success. At the end of the day, investing, as you know, as your listeners know, it’s very much a long-term process where you’re investing over years and decades. But again, to get the child to think about some of the things that you might want to think about with whether you’re investing in stocks or any sort of investment, what are the things that go into that thought process? And so getting back to that blog post I wrote, some of the stocks that I suggested that we test out, one was a blockchain ETF. So now that bitcoin and other coin-based just went public, those are things that we wouldn’t necessarily invest in directly. But a blockchain ETF is an example of a way you could dip your toe into that technology. So that was the thought process there. Another example was a cruise company, NCL, Norwegian Cruise Line. Now that COVID is starting to disappear and everyone’s getting vaccinated, people, there’s this pent-up demand to start traveling again. So we thought, hey, in the next year, NCL may actually start to do really good. And they even have a program where if you have 100 shares, you get extra bonus points. And so the idea is to think about all the different aspects to that investment, like how does it relate to what’s going on in the world right now? And what other pros and cons are there to that investment?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think we share your philosophy. What I heard there is our planning team often says a good investing plan should probably be as about boring as watching paint dry.

Dylin Redling: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: At the end of the day, it’s about a long-term play. But I like this activity as a concept. You know, I remember I had a great Econ101 teacher that had us do a similar activity. And it’s very memorable because it also leads to many other conversations like well, what type of influence does my marketing have? Or I thought this was going to go this way, and it didn’t go this way. Maybe I had some overconfidence in my selection of things. So why is diversification important? So I think, again, reading it and doing it, two very, very different things. And I think people experiencing this firsthand, especially you think of an 8- to 12-year-old, a very kinesthetic learner, right, hands-on experience that moment, be able to learn through that experience. Allison, as I went through the book, many times I thought to myself, man, what if I would have had some of this information earlier? What if I would have had this in middle school or high school or perhaps even earlier? And shoutout to my parents, who did an awesome job of the foundations, grew up in a small business, felt like I had a little bit of a head start. But outside of some K-12 programs and in higher education, I would say it’s largely absent, maybe some elective courses or some opportunities. And so I can’t help but think like, why aren’t we doing more of this? Why aren’t we covering more of this in a K-12 education? I mean, this type of book, this type of experience, these types of activities would be a home run in teaching kids about money. Here, we’re taking 8-12 investing, but obviously we all know it’s broader than that as well. So question here, I’m not asking you to solve the personal finance educational system woes, but why do you think this is not more foundational to our educational system in terms of personal finance education?

Allison Tom: Right. So I think part of it is that our generation didn’t really learn this either. And so as the educators come up with their curriculum, I think honestly, a lot of adults are really intimidated by personal finance. And so it’s something that seems easy enough for them to cut out of the education system as an elective because well, if they don’t understand it, then kids aren’t going to understand it. And if they’re intimidated by it, then kids are definitely going to not understand it and be intimidated by it, so let’s not even talk about it, which actually is one of the reasons why we thought it was important to write the book. We didn’t get this education when we were growing up. I know my parents are second-generation immigrants. And so the money lessons that they learned were from their parents, who grew up during the Great Depression. And as immigrants coming over to this country, they just pooled their money and they saved and they saved and they worked 20 hours a day to make money and then they would maybe invest it in the bank, although plenty of my relatives didn’t even bother with that. So my lessons growing up were save and save and save and save. I had a little piggy bank, and I would put all my coins in from the piggy bank, but that was the only thing that I learned. And so it wasn’t until I got to college, and then I had my first credit card that I just — oof. It was bad. I did not understand the concept of paying credit cards and interest rates and late fees and minimum payments. And so, you know, I got in trouble with credit cards after I graduated. And it wasn’t until after that that I thought, oh, I really need to learn more about what’s going on here. And so I started watching some shows on PBS, but by then, you know, I’m in my early 20s at that point. My learning took a lot longer for the habits to become engrained in me. So you know, I really do think that if kids could see this stuff earlier, it would be so much more impactful. You know, I’ve talked to a girlfriend of mine, her daughter is 17 and she read the book and she was like, “Yeah, you know, I’m going to start doing the savings plan when I get a job.” My friend was laughing because she’s like, my daughter doesn’t have a job. But she was just like, she got inspired by it, and I thought, oh, if we could just get kids to learn this stuff sooner —

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Allison Tom: All the great things we could do with them. So hopefully. Hopefully.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I love that, to that point, Allison. I think it was early in the book, you have the reader go through an activity where they identify problems, things that could be improved upon, right? And one of the things I often say is that any business is a solution to a problem, and that solution is one that people care about and are willing to pay for. And you know, I love that because I think for a child, like if they can think about, what are some things that could be done better? You know, one of them you proposed in the book, which was really cool because we recently just bought this — or actually we got it as a gift for our kids from our family — is you mention like chess. Really hard game for kids to play, kids to learn. Why isn’t there a solution out there that can make chess easier to play? Sure enough, there is. There’s a card game where you draw cards, you learn the basic moves of chess. So things like that, I think you’re inspiring some of the creative thinking, the problem solving, and laying some of the seeds of entrepreneurship or even for those that don’t own their own company, which would be the vast majority of folks, intrepreneurship, how can you be a problem solver within your organization? And how can you create solutions that make you a valuable asset within that organization? I want to shift gears a bit to connect some of the work that you have in “Investing for Kids” with what you cover in your site, Retireby45.com. You mentioned your other FIRE book as well. And I got the impression that you both, you believe that everyone could put together — especially an 8- to 12-year-old reading the “Investing for Kids” book — put together a plan for FIRE, again Financial Independence Retire Early — by the age of 45. So Dylin, our listeners know firsthand that time in the market equals success, and that compound interest, as you mentioned in the book, is the eighth wonder of the world. So we know the math is possible if someone starts at an early age. But why do you think it’s important that someone plans for FIRE by the age of 45?

Dylin Redling: Whether you’re able to retire in your 40s or your 50s or you do a traditional retirement in your 60s or even beyond, Allison’s dad, for example, is 70 now — or slightly older — and has no intentions of stopping working even though Allison suggests that he stop and enjoy life. But he’s got a job that he really loves. And so there’s a lot of people out there that are like that. So we love our FIRE lifestyle and the fact that we left our W2 jobs in our 40s, but we know it’s not for everybody. But what we do also know is that the concepts of Financial Independence are good for anybody, no matter when you might want to retire. And those concepts are really about doing the right thing with your money. So it starts with saving, it starts with being somewhat frugal — and when we say frugal, we don’t mean living a spartan lifestyle. We just mean not going crazy with money with spending on things that you don’t want or that you don’t need or you feel like you have to keep up with the Joneses and get a brand new SUV every two years. So there’s that, and of course investing wisely. And you know, we have another story that we write out on our blog, which kind of I think can be somewhat inspiring to people who are in their 20s and maybe haven’t really done anything with their finances yet. We, as Allison alluded to earlier, kind of our story is we met in New York and then we moved to San Francisco. And we were in our mid-20s at the time. And we still hadn’t invested a dollar yet. And it wasn’t until our late 20s that we got “real jobs” with a 401k plan and that sort of thing. And so it wasn’t until our late 20s that we really started investing. And our entire investment life cycle, if you will, was about 17 years from our late 20s to our early 40s. And in that time, we just were so diligent about dollar cost averaging, we did — we invested into both our 401k, our IRA, and a taxable account once we got some extra income literally on a weekly basis for years and years and years, no matter what the market was doing. Through the 2001 .com crash because we’re both working in that industry and of course through the ‘08-’09 recession. Never stopped. And so those kind of habits, again, are good for anybody no matter what your retirement goals are, just really those financial habits are going to put you in a great position.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I’m glad you shared that, Dylin. One of the questions I had for you was I read your story of not really late 20s, early 30s getting serious about investing, but retired or achieving FIRE by 43, 44, so short window of time, right? We tend to think of a very long trajectory of savings. You mentioned 17 years. So my question was what was the secret sauce? And if I heard you correctly, it was tax-advantaged accounts, 401k’s, IRAs, some taxable accounts and dollar cost averaging and being consistent. Is that fair?

Dylin Redling: Yeah. You know, a couple other things we did — we did the phrase “side hustle” is really popular now. But when we did it, we just called it a side business. This was in the mid-2000s. I came up with an affiliate marketing business that I ran on the weekends. And it ended up being a third income for us. So there’s things like maximizing your income. And then another concept — I’ll shoot it over to Allison to talk about — is geographic arbitrage. And that helped us kind of move about nine years ahead of schedule. Do you want to talk about how we did that?

Allison Tom: Sure. So geographic arbitrage has a lot of different meanings in the — for people. And the gist of it is that you leverage your current salary and move to a lower cost location. And so most people think that is oh, I’m going to make my United States salary and move to Thailand or Costa Rica, where the cost of living is exceedingly low. We did it by moving from San Francisco to Oakland, California, which geographically is a 10-mile difference but at the time, we were able to save about 50% on our housing costs.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Allison Tom: So yeah, it was pretty insane. For being 10 miles away, two or three train stops away on our BART system, we were able to pay off our condo in Oakland in cash by selling our place in San Francisco, which alleviated all the mortgage payments, the increase in property payments and our insurance went down as well. So that, Dylin calculated later, saved us probably about nine years of working because our mortgage in San Francisco was so astronomical that just cutting 50% off just pushed us into the financial independence sphere that much sooner. So it’s things like that. Obviously not everybody is going to be able to save 50% of their housing by moving 10 miles away, but there are other ways to do it. You can do things like house hacking where if you have space on your property, you could build an extra unit and rent it out or if you have an extra bedroom, you could rent it out and have a roommate or Airbnb it. So there are ways tod do it without going through the extreme example that we had. So there are plenty of ways to cut costs in your life that are relatively painless, that we’ve talked about all the time, so there are just different ways to do it to achieve FIRE. And some people don’t even choose to do the early retiring like my father is the example. So retirement is really more of the optional part. We’re not saying you have to retire, you have to leave your job and just sit around drinking mojitos all day long, although it’s certainly not a bad lifestyle. But you know, the retiring part is up to the individual.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I’m glad you said that, Allison, because I know many of our listeners love what they’re doing as pharmacists and they worked hard, and they got a doctorate degree and they have student loan debt and they invested in that education. And so my read is that many pharmacists are captivated by the idea and the power of financial independence. And you know, I believe that’s a goal we all should strive for for a variety of reasons with RE, Retire Early, being one of those perhaps reasons, but other things as well in terms of why that financial independence may be important. So nine years, nine years was estimated from that one decision, which I’m coming full-circle, Allison, about what you shared at the beginning of Dylin being in the hospital with double pneumonia. And when you start to think about the value of time, I mean, nine years and doing some of those calculations and what does that mean for one’s personal situation, I think that’s a really powerful example of taking something that can be mathematical or objective and looking at it in a different mindset. If we were to make this move or this move, what does that mean for us in terms of timeline to retirement, working part-time, pursuing another opportunity, what does that mean for one’s goals towards financial independence? I’m glad you discussed geographic arbitrage because one of the things we see in our profession in pharmacy is that unfortunately, a pharmacist’s income usually does not translate with cost of living. So here I am in the Midwest and that income for a pharmacist in the Bay Area might be a little bit more for a similar role but nowhere near the cost of living difference between Columbus, Ohio and San Francisco, California. So I think this is a move, especially for many of our listeners that might be saying, you know, ‘I’m making a decent income, but I’ve got a lot of work to do on student loans, I want to invest, I want to buy a home, I want to do this or that. And at the end of the day, there’s only so much income.’ So is a move, whether it’s near, within 10 miles, or something a little bit more significant, is that an option that somebody may be able to pursue? Allison, what have you guys been doing since achieving FIRE? You know, what’s been the goals, what’s been the priority, how have you been spending time? I think that’s one of the other common objections that comes up is like, if I retire at 45, like I don’t even know what I would do with my time. Tell us a little bit about that journey since you guys have achieve FIRE.

Allison Tom: So it’s funny, we — so we FIREd quite by accident. We were both working in tech startups, and Dylin got laid off and then I got laid off about five weeks afterwards. And so we kind of took the time after we were both laid off to travel a little bit. That was one of the things that two people who are working can’t always schedule, coordinate their schedules, to take some time off. And so we thought, alright, this is the perfect time. We went to Europe for two weeks and did a cruise around the Mediterranean and had a blast and then came back and thought, alright, we’ve got to get back to work. So we went about — we went on interviews and we just saw just how miserable people were at their jobs. Just so stressed out, and I interviewed with this one guy who was like, “You need to tell me who said this about us so I can go talk to them.” I’m like, I don’t want to work for you. You’re scary. And so you know, the three months turned into six months and then nine months and then Dylin figured out kind of like back of the envelope math, figured out that we could actually retire without having to go back to work anymore. He stumbled into the 4% Rule, which we still hadn’t at that point heard the term FIRE before. You know, the first few years we did a fair amount of traveling domestically. Like we would go back to visit his mother and my father, who both live on the East Coast, which is one of the things you just don’t get time to do when you’re working is spending time with family. And so you know, if we would go back East, we would maybe spend two days with each parent because they don’t live that close to each other. And now, we can actually go and spend a week with each parental unit. And that makes a big difference because, you know, they’re getting older and living across the country, it’s harder to connect with them. So we do a lot more slow travel where we don’t have to feel rushed between people. And then it’s funny because we — our retirement has changed as time goes by. So for people who are concerned that oh, what am I going to do with my time? Your time is yours. You can now make your own schedule. And that, to me, is the beauty of not just financial independence, it’s financial freedom because you can choose what you want to do. And so you know, the first two years were traveling domestically, the second two years were more about traveling internationally. And we had two cats that passed away at 19. So for us, they were like our kids. And so we did not do a lot of traveling away from them until they passed on. And so once they did, we’re like, alright, we’re going to go crazy and go travel around the globe. And so the last — and then the last two years have been focused on writing books and going to financial conferences and kind of learning from others and then applying that and communicating out to audiences like yours. That’s the beauty of the time being yours is you can make it whatever you want to do. We also do a lot more work with our community that we never had time to do when we were working. So we’re a lot more invested in our neighborhood, and we spend more time working with businesses in our neighborhood to bring in more business. So having that luxury of time means you can go explore whatever interests pop up. So you know, did we ever think that we would be working with small businesses two years ago? Probably not. But now we are, and we’re advocates for small businesses in our neighborhood, and that’s something we would never have thought we would have done when we first retired.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s very cool. And I read as well your goal of 60 by 60. Sixty countries to visit by the age of 60. If I understand it, you’re about halfway through. Looking forward to following your journey. I’m hopeful you’ll be blogging about it along the way as well. Dylin, I’m going to throw the last question I have over for you. And one of the things I think about when it comes to early retirement and achieving financial independence or the FIRE movement is that it really does require delayed gratification and at times, you mentioned the word frugality earlier. And that frugality can be at various levels. As you mentioned, we’re not necessarily talking spartan type of frugality. My question here though is how do we strike the balance? You know, whether it’s for ourselves or teaching our kids about saving and investing to take care of our future selves but also valuing and making sure we understand that it’s important that we enjoy some of the money along the way as well. I find myself often struggling with this individually of, OK, I know I need to take care of my future self and probably sometimes I do that at the expense of the experiences and the enjoyment today. And I think striking this balance is really important. What are your thoughts on that?

Dylin Redling: You know, I’ll actually plug a couple of other books besides ours that I really like. One is “A Simple Path to Wealth” by Janelle Collins, which I highly recommend. And another one is actually one of Allison’s favorites. It has a funny title, it’s “I Will Teach You to Be Rich” by —

Allison Tom: Ramit Sethi.

Dylin Redling: Ramit Sethi. And we saw him speak. He was a keynote speaker at FinCon a couple years ago. And one of the things that he said, which really resonated with me and it goes to your question, is spend liberally on things that you enjoy. But hold back aggressively on things that are not important to you. And it’s a very simple concept. But again, it goes directly to your question, and it’s really — maybe you or your kids or whoever’s thinking about this makes a list. Here are the things I’m passionate about. Here are the things that I really enjoy. I love travel, I like eating out at restaurants, I like entertainment, sports, whatever it is. And I’m going to set my budget to focus on those things. I’m going to be OK — maybe I’ll go to a World Series game because I’m a huge baseball fan. Or I’m going to set a goal to go to every baseball park in America. You know, whatever that goal might be. Conversely, think about the things that aren’t that important to you like maybe a brand new car is not important to you, so you drive your car for 10-20 years and you really just never focus on spending a lot of money on that. And so those are the concepts that I think are something to really think about. And for us, that’s what we’ve always done. When people look at our lifestyle from the outside or even some of our friends, you know, they may think, wow, we’ve always lived in pretty expensive apartments — or condos or houses, so they might think, wow, they spend a lot of money. But if you look a little deeper, like we had a car for almost 20 years. We had a Volkswagen Jetta. We just recently got a new-to-us couple years old Toyota Corolla. So there’s an example where we just — you know, having a brand new car wasn’t that important to us. But again, we have the 60 by 60 goal. So travel is really important to us. And we have no problem spending that extra money to go travel for a few months and really try to see the world because that’s something that we’re passionate about. That being said, when we do travel, we try to — we don’t stay at four-star hotels because part of our kind of nature is to also find some deals here and there and to just spend consciously, to just spend our money kind of wisely.

Allison Tom: We prefer to spend money on the experiences rather than the hotel room that we’re putting our suitcase in.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. And I was at that keynote that you were at, and with Ramit, and I’ll never forget it. I mean, the concept that he talks about in “I Will Teach You to Be Rich,” money dials, right, is find the things that are of value to you and dial it up. And find the things that are not and dial them down. And you know, I remember hearing that, and I was like, heck yeah. It just makes so much sense. And you know, to the comment of experiences and even the literature really showing happiness related to money, it’s experience and giving typically are the areas where we see that biggest connection. So Allison and Dylin, I really appreciate you guys taking time to come on the show. Kudos on the work here with “Investing for Kids,” I really enjoyed it, as well as the work that you’re doing at Retireby45.com and your other book, “Start Your FIRE: A Modern Guide to Early Retirement.” As it relates to the book “Investing for Kids,” I hope our audience will pick up a copy of this, available at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, many other online vendors as well. I really did find it engaging, it was rich with relevant information, practical exercises to apply the information, as I mentioned, certainly does not look, feel, or read like a textbook. And so I think many in our community are going to find it helpful. What’s the best place for our audience to go to follow the work that the two of you are doing?

Dylin Redling: Well, our — I’ll plug our website, and I’ll have Allison plug our Instagram account. Retireby45.com is our website, and we blog there on a once or twice a month with a fresh new blog post, and we have a bunch of stuff on there, courses and other things. And then Allison’s been working on really putting together a pretty cool Instagram account.

Allison Tom: So we have Instagram and Twitter both @retire_by_45. Yeah, it’s been an interesting challenge trying to get into the social media, the social media space.

Tim Ulbrich: Very good. We will link to both of those in the show notes as well as the Retireby45.com as well as the books that we’ve mentioned, not only your books but the others that you referenced as well. So the two of you, thank you again very much for your time. I really appreciate it.

Allison Tom: Thanks, Tim. It’s great.

Dylin Redling: Thanks.

Allison Tom: O-H

Dylin Redling: I-O

Tim Ulbrich: I-O!

Dylin Redling: Thanks, Tim. Great talking to you.

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YFP 147: How One Pharmacist is Turning Tragedy Into Triumph

Posted on April 9, 2020November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

How One Pharmacist is Turning Tragedy Into Triumph

Phillip Beach, Director of Pharmacy at Arkansas Continued Care, talks about his career journey, his path toward financial independence, and the start of the Harper Faith Foundation, a 501(c)3 non-profit that was founded in memory of his daughter Harper Faith Beach who was born with hypoplastic left heart syndrome (HLHS).

Summary

In this episode, Phillip shares about his career path, the why behind his and his wife’s FIRE journey, and the start of the Harper Faith Foundation in memory of his daughter.

Phillip graduated in 2017 from Harding University College of Pharmacy and began working at NEA Baptist the following week with a 7 on/7 off night shift for about two years. Through networking on LinkedIn, Phillip was able to take a PRN position which led to his current full-time Director of Pharmacy position at Arkansas Continued Care.

Unfortunately, on September 11, 2018, his life forever changed. His daughter, Harper Faith, passed away due to hypoplastic left heart syndrome (HLHS), a congenital heart disease she had been battling with for four months. Phillip shares how he and his wife grieved, how his outlook on life has altered and what their focus is on financially because of their tragic loss.

Philip and his wife wanted to help other heart families and formed the Harper Faith Foundation. The foundation supports others by promoting research, giving inpatient gift bags full of toiletries and other necessities to make long-term hospital stays a bit easier, and offers a yearly college scholarship to a high school senior with a congenital heart defect.

Phillip shares that he and his wife are moving to a FIRE approach with their finances and life because they want to have more time and freedom to do what they want.

More About Harper Faith Foundation

About Harper Faith Foundation: In January of 2019, Phillip and his wife, Tori, founded the 501c3 nonprofit organization “Harper Faith Foundation” in memory of their daughter, Harper Faith Beach, who was born with hypoplastic left heart syndrome (HLHS). Their mission is to spread awareness for congenital heart defects and to help out families who are battling HLHS. They are dedicated to turning tragedy into triumph.

HFF helps heart families by doing the following:

1) Yearly college scholarship to a congenital heart disease survivor

2) Donating funds (Ronald Mcdonald house, CVICU @Arkansas Childrens Hospital, directly to those in need)

3) Giving gift bags to those currently staying in the CVICU (gift bags include the following: children’s books, newborn socks, newborn side snap onesies, pacifier, newborn stuffed animal, toiletries for both mom and dad – shampoo, conditioner, bodywash, face wipes, toothbrush and toothpaste, lotion. The bags also contain a water bottle, kleenex, individual Tide laundry packs, notebook, pen, and a binder to help organize medical documents and information.

4) Supporting research at Mayo Clinic – participation in 2 clinical studies (studying DNA, cord blood stem cell injection into the heart during surgery).

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. It’s an honor to have joining me Phillip Beach, a recent graduate of Harding University College of Pharmacy and Director of Pharmacy at Arkansas Continued Care. On today’s episode, we’re going to talk about really an unimaginable journey that Phillip and his wife had had over the past couple years with the loss of their daughter Harper Faith at a very, very young age to a congenital heart condition. And we’re going to talk, yeah, we’ll talk a little bit about Phillip’s career journey, a little bit about their financial journey, but we’re going to talk most about that journey of loss, that journey of grief. What were the strategies that allowed them to come together to get through that difficult time? And we’re also going to talk about what they are doing going forward with the starting of the Harper Faith Foundation, a 501(c) not-for-profit organization that’s designed to help families and research that is related to the condition that took their daughter at such a young age. So Phillip, thank you so much for taking time to join me on this week’s episode. And welcome to the show.

Phillip Beach: Thanks, Tim. I’m very excited to be here and share our story. So thank you for having me on.

Tim Ulbrich: So let’s start our conversation with your journey into pharmacy school and the current work that you’re doing.

Phillip Beach: So I got started in pharmacy 2017. I graduated and I took a 7-on, 7-off night shift position at NEA Baptist in northeast Arkansas. And so I did night shift for a little under two years, and that was a great time. Got to work with a good friend of mine and it was a huge learning experience. So I learned a ton, got my feet wet in that role and really learned what hospital setting was all about as a pharmacist straight out of school. Currently, I am Director of Pharmacy at Arkansas Continued Care Hospital. We’re considered a long-term acute care. We’re a 44-bed facility, and I am the full-time pharmacist. We have one full-time technician with me as well. Census is typically 20-25, somewhere in that area. So we stay busy. We just implemented Omnicells about a year ago, so we’ve been getting that process down and really enjoying that over doing cart fill, which is a nice change. And as you can imagine, it is a smaller place, so I get to wear a bunch of different hats and it keeps me constantly learning. And there’s just so much to do and so much to learn. It’s been great. And the community is small, so I’m getting to know the nurses and the leadership and the physicians, everyone, way more than I did at a larger hospital.

Tim Ulbrich: So as we’re recording, we’re in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic, so thank you to you and your team that are on the frontlines of this and going to work each and every day. And it sounds like as we talked about before we hit record, you all haven’t been as impacted yet, at least, right, by the pandemic?

Phillip Beach: Yes, sir. So we’re — the models currently look like around towards the end of this month, around the 26 is what we’re expecting. So we’re preparing for that, doing a lot of education on PPE donning and doffing, obviously trying to get any supplies we can get and also doing emergency preparedness with the other hospitals in this region, kind of combined forces and see how many ventilators we have and what we can do when it does come.

Tim Ulbrich: So Phillip, when I think about a leadership role at a smaller institution like you’re at — and as you mentioned, you wear lots of different hats — I think about, you know, when you’re in that size of an organization, obviously a time like this, you’re thinking about emergency preparedness types of things. But even just in not a time like this, normal operations, you’re probably wearing a financial hat, a human resource hat, operations hat. And how does one prepare themself for that? Or maybe a better question is how do you get an opportunity like that, you know, right out of school, graduating in 2017, without advanced residency training or additional academic degrees?

Phillip Beach: Well, I’ve had a lot of great mentors. So his name was Byron at my previous job, he was a really good boss. So I got to learn and watch him while I was on night shift for almost two years. And then my current boss, Charlie, has been fantastic in helping mentor me into this role and leading me on the path as a director. And then like I said, the leadership team at our hospital as well, getting to be involved and watching them and learning from people that have been here longer than me and know what they’re doing and really learning leadership styles. It’s been very helpful to watch them. But the amount of hats that you wear, really, it just comes with time doing it. So the longer that you’re in it, the more you learn. And you know, literally I am learning stuff every day and there’s just so much to improve upon constantly so that I feel like my work will never end, which is a good thing. It keeps me having new goals constantly. There’s always something I can work on, antibiotic stewardship or policies and procedures or nailing down our therapeutic interchanges, there’s just so much I can do on a daily basis that I enjoy.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and as you know, once you land a position like that, as time goes on in your career, the lack of having a residency training or additional degree is going to matter less and less. And I want our students listening to hear, you know, what I heard is really two years of a willingness to learn, night shift, I’m not sure many people are willing to do night shift for two years. I definitely hear a willingness and a desire to learn, hard work, seeking mentorship, so I think all of those things are incredibly important. So thank you for sharing.

Phillip Beach: Yeah, I’d also want to — I forgot to mention networking was huge. I actually found this position by networking on LinkedIn. And I reached out to the current Director of Pharmacy who had posted like a PRN shift work, and I was just looking for additional income. So at the time when I was 7-on, 7-off, you know, I had those seven days free. I was like, hey, I want a couple days extra work. So I reached out to her on LinkedIn, and that’s how the whole ball got rolling. And so I worked PRN filling in for her for a little over a year, about 14 months, and you know, when she left the job, it opened up to me and she recommended me for the position. So it’s crazy that networking and LinkedIn, how far that can go in today’s age. So I can’t emphasize that enough too for new grads.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, absolutely. And ironically, it’s a reminder to me that this interview came to be because of LinkedIn. So we had connected a while back when you were in pharmacy school, you helped us do some editing for the book “Seven Figure Pharmacist.” I think you might have been a P2, P3. And then I had seen you post a few months ago on LinkedIn some updates and work that you’re doing with the Harper Faith Foundation, and I was like, “Ah, that’s right! Phillip helped us with the book.” I think I had heard from you a couple other times via email and other things. So I think it’s just a good reminder of the power of networking and staying in touch with folks over a period of time. So Phillip, you graduate from pharmacy school in 2017, obviously your career is taking off at a very young age. And on September 11, 2018, life changes really forever. Tell us more.

Phillip Beach: So Harper was born May 21, 2018. She was born with half a heart, Hypoplastic Left Heart Syndrome. It’s just a big word for missing half your heart, basically. So the ventral valve, the left ventricle and the left atria did not form in the womb. So that whole left side of her heart was just not functioning, basically. So for these HLHS babies, they have a three-stage palliative surgery option that hopefully can basically extend the life and give you a quality of life and hopefully, it gets you to where you’re older and more stable to do a transplant is ultimately the goal. So there is not a cure. So that’s the path that we went down. So Harper was born the 21. She had open heart surgery on Day 4, 4 days old. She did really well. She conquered that surgery and stayed on intubated and on the vent for about a month. So we couldn’t hold her for that whole first month. And it was extremely just difficult, as anyone could imagine. And we stayed in the hospital altogether about two months straight. And here I am, working 7-on, 7-off night shifts. So I did use my PTO and a week here, week there. And my wife is staying there 24/7. She was the one there all the time while I was here at work. So it was very difficult, and during those two months, she got better, you know. Everything was going good. We were able to be discharged. So we got to bring her home for a month. And everything was great. Daily weights, there was a very close monitoring program that we actually had on the iPad from Arkansas Children’s Hospital. We’d take videos daily, monitor their weight. We’re literally writing down how many mils that she’s drinking every two or three hours throughout the day. So tracking it down to the milliliter, literally, and journaling that. So while the experience to monitor to make sure that they’re being fed right and that their fluid electrolyte balance in perfect, and it’s such a critical thing in these heart babies where something as small as that fluid and electrolyte difference can make a huge impact. So that month goes on while we have her home and it’s time for heart cath, just to check her heart function. So we go to the hospital and do this heart cath, and after that procedure, her heart developed a tricuspid regurgitation, so some blood flow was leaking out of that valve. And it never recovered. And it got to be severe tricuspid regurg. So she was basically in heart failure at that point and we had to start her on continuous IV drips for her heart function. And so this was about three months of age, and we were basically stuck inpatient there at that point thinking about the transplant list. So we’re meeting with the transplant team and organizing, getting all that set up, getting blood types, getting her registered. And Harper coded multiple times. And come to find, she had undiagnosed sepsis as well as heart failure. And she passed away on 9/11/2018. So at this point, it’s really just devastating for my wife and I. It totally just changes your life. And everything that you know as a parent, your routine, your role, everything just changes instantly. So as long as — as well as your identity. So everything as a parent, you know, is gone instantly. And it’s just major shock. So going through that grief and that entire process, working 7-on, 7-off, that was very difficult spending those seven nights away from my wife ultimately. So that’s what led me to this daytime Director of Pharmacy position was to be able to spend more time with my family and with my wife. So during that grieving process, that was a key, getting to spend more time together as both of us were going through that process.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and Phillip, I’m sure our listeners are thinking the same. My heart breaks for you and your wife. And just the situation as a father, I can’t even imagine what you guys went through. And I have to believe that we have one, two, 10, 100, maybe more people that are listening that are going through some type of grief or loss right now. You know, maybe it’s a similar situation, maybe it’s a job loss, maybe it’s a loss of a parent, a loss of a spouse, a loss of a child or something else. What words of encouragement would you have to share for somebody listening that is going through a moment of grief or loss right now?

Phillip Beach: Well, that’s my hope coming on here to talk to you today is that I can somehow spread a message of positivity to at least one person and impact their life and help them through whatever struggle they’re going through, to just make that choice every day to stay positive and know that these trials and things you go through will make you a better person in the end. And you never know who you can impact by choosing that positivity every day. And I’m not saying that I always win that battle. But every day, I try to make that conscious effort to be positive. And I think that is the key. And I know we talked about Adam Martin before, but he actually had a video on this I think yesterday that I saw between two different pharmacists, one choosing not being positive and the other being positive and being a great leader in their pharmacy. And I think that’s so key is making that choice daily, wanting to impact others and being a leader in that positivity to spread it to others. No one wants to be around a negative person. So I hope I can be that same light to someone that’s going through a tough situation.

Tim Ulbrich: And what gives you and your wife hope? What gave you hope through that time period of obviously losing Harper? But I sense this is something daily that you’re working through. Like what gives you guys hope going forward?

Phillip Beach: You know, really, we started Harper Faith Foundation, and that was one of the things that we could transform this tragedy into something triumphant. That was — that’s our goal to spread some hope to someone else that needs it. So we made the Harper Faith Foundation a nonprofit organization in January 2019. My wife started it up, did all the research, figured out how to do it, contacted LegalZoom, got that set up, it’s all official. And the outpouring that we’ve had from our community and our friends and our church and our support group, our family, to give back to us so that we can give out to others has been amazing. So that has been a source of hope for us. And being able to spread it to other people, that gives us joy. So ultimately, there’s nothing like giving back to other people. You don’t get that sense of joy from anything else.

Tim Ulbrich: And Phillip, one of the other things as I think through others that may be going through a situation of loss or grief would be that this topic of finance in and of itself is stressful, let alone when you’re going through a difficult situation. So talk us through for a moment about how you keep the financial plan afloat during a time of grief. Or maybe a better question is how do you give yourself permission or peace to just let it go temporarily, you know, in the midst of everything that you’re dealing with?

Phillip Beach: It’s definitely a balancing act. And I think it’s so key to live below your means in a lot of areas of your life but also realize that life is very fleeting and when you have something that you enjoy as a family to go and enjoy that and not worry about it. And realize that you have money to spend and go out and enjoy, go on vacation with your family, spend that time together, do what you can while you’re on your own because you don’t always have that time later down the road. And that’s another part of my life that I want to touch on. My dad unexpectedly passed in 2016 when I was right about to start my rotations. I was literally about three or four days from going to my first acute care rotations in Texas, he unexpectedly had a heart attack at 56. He was in great shape, he was ex-military. And that has also stuck with me and just convinced me that, you know, the balancing act and using your time while you have it because you can save for your 401k all day and all that, but it’s not a for sure thing that you’re going to live to 65 to get to enjoy it. So I definitely encourage people to be wise with their money but at the same time enjoy it and love your family and go and do the things that you like to do together.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes, such a good reminder, Phillip, of the balance of today versus the future, right? There’s responsibility in taking care of your future self but not fully at the expense of today and the needs that are around you but also as you mentioned just the experiences and the opportunities that you have of things to do. So I think that balance is so critical. So I think you answered this a little bit, you know, in that context of that balance of today and the future, but tell us a little bit more about as a guy who I sense is a financial nerd, right, you know, you’re kind of saving, balancing debt, and the questions you ask, how does money have a different meaning for you after you go through such a obviously situation of grief and loss such as that you did?

Phillip Beach: I think now, we’re more focused on giving back. And when we have extra funds, we don’t necessarily set aside a certain percentage or anything but you know, just kind of sporadically my wife will be like, “Hey, why don’t we help this family out?” Or, “Hey, why don’t we go up to Arkansas Children’s this weekend and bring them lunch?” Those are the kind of things that we like to do just on a whim. And that’s what we’re more focused on these days is giving back, doing what we can, as little as bringing someone that Chick-Fil-A at lunch in the hospital. It might not seem like much, but to them, that’s like — it’s a really big thing when these families are stuck inpatient for 3, 6, 12 months at a time. Some of these families are on the transplant list, like I said, and they literally don’t get to leave. They eat cafeteria food day-in and day-out. They’re there with their sick child and something just like bringing a meal is very uplifting. So that’s what our focus is on now is just giving when we can.

Tim Ulbrich: Especially a Chick-Fil-A meal, right? That makes anyone happy.

Phillip Beach: I know, right?

Tim Ulbrich: You know, I think what resonates with me when you said that is yes, it’s the meal. But it’s the gesture. It’s letting people know they’re not alone, that there’s a community that’s thinking about them, that’s praying for them, that’s encouraging them. And I think the meal is maybe the vehicle in which you’re able to do that. But obviously there’s a broader intention there. So let’s shift and talk about the Harper Faith Foundation, a 501c not-for-profit organization. You mentioned your wife set it up, which is awesome and we’ll talk a little bit more about that as well. But let’s just break it down. What is the mission and the work of the Harper Faith Foundation?

Phillip Beach: So our mission is to help other heart families and kind of like you said, building that community. There is — other heart families, you just have this bond with no one else has kind of gone through this situation like these people have. So you understand each other. And that’s kind of what we are making and building with Harper Faith Foundation. We aim to help out other heart families. So that is our goal is to provide some hope to them during these tough times.

Tim Ulbrich: And specifically as I understand it, you guys are doing work in a variety of different ways, including supporting families — you talked a little bit about this — supporting families, but I think there’s some other components as well with research. So talk us through the specific areas of the work of the Harper Faith Foundation.

Phillip Beach: Yeah, so we help other families through a variety of ways. One of the things we like the most is promoting research. So we were actually involved with two studies with Mayo Clinic. They took stem cells from the umbilical cord blood when Harper was born and they froze them and they were planning to use those in the Stage 2 surgery and they were injecting them directly into the heart to try to make that side of the heart stronger, the right ventricle, so that it could kind of take over some of that workload that the left isn’t doing. That’s one of our joys is to help with the research process and try to find not necessarily a cure because there isn’t a cure right now but just make advancements in this field because the prognosis is just very poor right now. And like I said, it’s a three-stage palliative operation. And that’s really all they can offer right now besides transplant. So we love to be involved in that. Sadly, we didn’t get to that Stage 2 operation to get to use those stem cells. But still, they were happy to be able to participate with Mayo Clinic in that. We also participated in another Mayo Clinic study with DNA. So my wife and I both took mouth swabs, and they’re trying to find a genetic link to see what is going on here. They haven’t exactly determined the link yet. But you know, there’s got to be something there more than meets the eye. So we’re happy to be involved in that too. Another way that we help is just by giving gift bags to the families that are inpatients at the CDICU. These gift bags include a lot of items like children’s books, newborn socks, newborn onesies, pacifier, stuffed animals, toiletries for mom and dad while they’re staying there inpatient in the hospital. There’s a water bottle, Kleenex, individual Tide packets so you can do your laundry there at the hospital. And we also put a binder in there to keep all your child’s medical information. And that’s one of our favorite parts is including this binder because you’re bombarded every day with so much medical information. And a lot of the times, you just freeze because it’s two steps backward, one step forward constantly. And when it’s with your kid and they’re telling you these diagnosis and stuff, it’s so important to have this medical information with you on paper, in a binder, somewhere where you can access it quickly just because a lot of times, it doesn’t sink in when the doctor is telling you these heavy diagnosis. So that’s one of the things we love most about these gift bags, giving those to the families. And then we also — we do a yearly college scholarship for a high school senior that’s going into their freshman year specifically to someone that has a congenital heart defect. So we’re very happy to be able to do that. And we started that this past year. And we would like to be able to increase it every year. Not only increase the value of the scholarship but as time goes on, we would like it be two scholarships, three scholarships, four scholarships, and just keep it growing. We’re just happy to be able to pay it back, and we’re so thankful that our friends and family has helped support us to be able to give back to others as well.

Tim Ulbrich: And I love what you said earlier, Phillip, you know, taking tragedy and turning it into triumph and really being able to make a difference. I think you have been tangibly — you and your wife, obviously — tangibly have been doing that. So thank you for sharing. For our listeners that are hearing that and saying, “I want to learn more about the Harper Faith Foundation,” or perhaps even give to the foundation, where can they go?

Phillip Beach: They can go to our Facebook page, Harper Faith Foundation. That’s probably the best place to get in touch with us. We have an Amazon link if you’d like to donate. And it has all of the items that we include in these gift bags to the families. So literally things like pacifier, the animals, the socks for the newborn, everything that goes in there you can get and reach out to us, connect with us, see what you can do to get involved and learn more.

Tim Ulbrich: So Harper Faith Foundation Facebook group. And we’ll link to that in the show notes for those that want to go onto the website when we publish this episode. You know, the other thing I’m thinking about here, Phil, is I sense many of the YFP community members have a desire to start a nonprofit for a variety of reasons and may look at that and say, “Well, that’s a really daunting, overwhelming task to start a 501c3.” So you mentioned your wife working with LegalZoom are really taking the lead on that process. Talk to us a little bit more — while I know you didn’t do it directly — about the intensity of doing that and hopefully an encouragement to others that, you know, it’s not something that can’t be overcome, can’t be done.

Phillip Beach: Yeah, definitely. So she — like I said, she did the whole process herself. She did all of the research and figured out LegalZoom was the route that we wanted to take. There’s a bunch of questions that you have to answer, of course, to get involved. And they basically assign you a legal team, they set it all up, and it’s a fairly straightforward process once you get it going. I would compare it to TurboTax and filing your taxes. They kind of pinpoint you questions to answer and lead you down the path, and it’s pretty simple as far as that goes.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. Awesome. So shifting to your financial plan for a couple moments here as we wrap up, before we had the interview, you had mentioned that you and your wife are interested or moving on the path towards Financial Independence Retire Early, the FIRE movement. We have previous episodes that we’ll link to in the show notes where we’ve talked about this. So tell me more about the motivation. Why is FIRE an area that you and your wife are interested in and pursuing?

Phillip Beach: So I like FIRE for a variety of reasons. But I guess the main thing is having more time and freedom to do what you want and spend that time with your family. Obviously it’s a long-term goal for us. My wife is still in school right now, so that is our focus right now is getting her through school and letting her accomplish her dreams, becoming a nurse and going to nurse practitioner, getting her doctorate. That’s our focus right now. But the opportunity to spend more time with your family, that’s really what we’re striving for.

Tim Ulbrich: Love the clarity of the why there. And typically, you know, student loans are the biggest barrier to people being able to achieve financial independence because you need to obviously be saving aggressively, and student loan payments, you and I both know, can be really big at times. So for your student loan situation, as I understand it, you were on a Public Service Loan Forgiveness Track working for a not-for-profit hospital but then switching to a for-profit hospital that that path changed a little bit. So talk to us about your current student loan repayment strategy.

Phillip Beach: Right, so I was on the PSLF with the nonprofit and I changed to this DOP role, and now it’s a for-profit hospital. But so still on the same loan forgiveness path, but now it’s including the tax bomb, basically, and a little bit longer of a plan. And that’s our plan for right now. And you know, with this whole pandemic and things changing daily, who knows what’s going to happen in the future? But right now, that’s what we’re doing.

Tim Ulbrich: Well right now, you’re in a pretty sweet spot. You know, we were talking before the show that obviously with the passage of the CARES Act, for somebody such as yourself that’s pursuing non-PSLF or even those that are pursuing PSLF, essentially you’re going to get six months worth of credits but have a $0 payment, 0% interest, essentially for six months, end of September. TBD after that. So at least for the foreseeable future, it’s a good place, good place to be in. Couple questions I have for you about the non-PSLF track. First one would be we often don’t talk with folks about how they’re thinking about or saving for the tax bomb. So for a moment, let me just explain for those listening that may not be familiar in that if somebody’s pursuing non-Public Service Loan Forgiveness inside the federal system, instead of 10 years with PSLF and that being tax-free forgiveness, with non-PSLF, as you mentioned, it’s longer and it’s not tax-free forgiveness. So for example, if you have $100,000 at the point of applying for forgiveness after 20 or 25 years, depending on your plan, that essentially gets treated like income that year, and you have to be preparing for the “tax bomb” that will be coming, which could be sizable, depending on one’s student loan amount and the amount that’s forgiven. So the question often comes then, you know, how do you plan for it? Do you worry about it now? Do you worry about it later? Where do you put those monies? So how are, Phillip, thinking through the preparation of the tax bomb?

Phillip Beach: So I guess there’s a lot of strategy I’ve read about online, and I’m thankful for so much content and resources from the YFP community and there’s some other physician bloggers for finances. And I guess right now, it’s a little bit of both, worrying about it now and in the future. And hopefully during this whole time period, you can set aside funds to a separate account and that is basically your tax bomb fund is how I’m thinking about it. And so when that time comes, you’re ready for that. Or hopefully it’s even a larger amount than that, and if the whole forgiveness thing washes out and you’re not — and that’s not a possibility, you have enough in that side fund to just completely pay it off. So that is kind of my long-term goal there.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. And while you’re in this situation that’s somewhat unique of six qualifying payments and you have to make a payment and if I remember correctly, you said your monthly payment was just shy of about $1,000 per month. So talk us through like what’s your strategy during this unique COVID-19 situation where you don’t have to make a payment? How are you thinking about utilizing those resources that would otherwise go towards student loans?

Phillip Beach: Well, you know, it’s such a fluid thing. But I’m waiting to get more information. So again, I’m thankful for your guys’ website putting out almost daily information bits on that. But we will probably hammer off some of the remaining debt that we have just a little bit left on my wife’s car. You know, that’s very tempting to go ahead and take care of. That’s probably our biggest interest rate right now. So that might be what it goes to. If I don’t have to make student loan payments for the next six months, that’s probably what will happen.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, it’s a time where you can be a little bit more opportunistic, right? Especially if you’ve got other parts of the plan tidied up in terms of emergency fund, credit card debt. I think it’s an opportunity to be opportunistic with those funds that would have otherwise gone towards student loans. So long-term, Phillip, there’s an interest, passion perhaps, to open up your own gym. So tell us more about that.

Phillip Beach: I’ve always been interested in maybe having my own small business one day. And I’ve been always been interested in nutrition and exercise. So that just seems like a no-brainer to me. And actually, my brother and I have always had this dream I feel like of just opening up our own gym and making that a reality one day. And the whole thought of doing something that you really love every day. And not only that, but it’s a place to help people. I can’t help but think of how much chronic illness we deal with here in America, and it’s just — it’s the cure for it basically is how I see it. Moving more, exercising more, can — it’s just the cure.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and it reminds me of the episode we had with TJ Allen, who is a owner of a couple different gyms as well as an independent pharmacy owner, previously on the show. Just another example of kind of a passion for fitness, entrepreneurial type of mindset, and certainly strategic when it comes to his financial plan. So Phillip, thank you so much. I mean, this has been a great interview, certainly has inspired and I’m confident will do the same for our audience. I appreciate your willingness to come on, record this very early, 6 a.m. your time here this morning when we hit record and certainly willing for your — appreciate your willingness to share the journey that you’ve had with Harper Faith, obviously you and your wife, and more about the Harper Faith Foundation. So thank you so much.

Phillip Beach: Well thank you for having me on. And again, I hope this message can bring some positivity to at least one person and inspire them to keep going and get through those trials in their life. So again, thank you for having me on and thank you to all of our frontline healthcare workers too, the nursing staff, retail pharmacists, everyone out there that’s out there on the frontlines dealing with this pandemic. So just want to give a shoutout to you guys too.

Tim Ulbrich: Thank you, Phillip.

Phillip Beach: Thank you, Tim.

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YFP 134: One Couple’s Coast FI Journey

Posted on January 9, 2020November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

One Couple’s Coast FI Journey

Cory & Cassie Jenks join Tim Ulbrich to share their specific path and plan towards achieving financial independence through a Coast FI approach. They talk about why and how they have aggressively saved for retirement early in their careers, how they have worked together to achieve their goals, and how Cory’s side hustle doing improv comedy has helped their financial plan all while filling a bucket of doing something he loves.

About Today’s Guests

Dr. Cory Jenks PharmD, BCPS, BCACP, earned his PharmD from the University of South Carolina in 2011 and completed a PGY1 residency at the Southern Arizona VA Healthcare System in 2012. His past pharmacy experience has included time as a retail pharmacist, outpatient clinical pharmacist, and inpatient clinical pharmacist. Currently, he practices as an Ambulatory Care Clinical Pharmacy Specialist where he applies his passion for lifestyle interventions in the management of chronic disease. Cory is also an accomplished improv comedian, having started on his comedy journey in 2013. Since then, Cory has coached, taught, and performed improv for thousands of people. His passion for improv comedy led him to start ImprovRx, where he provides seminars and workshops for businesses and healthcare organizations on applying the skills of improv comedy for their employees and leaders.

Dr. Cassie Jenks, DNP, earned her Bachelor’s Degree in Nursing from the University of Arizona in 2009, and her Master’s and Doctorate of Nursing Practice from the University of Arizona in 2015. She currently practices in the Outpatient Pulmonary Department at the Southern Arizona VA. Beyond her pulmonary practice, Cassie holds a Blue Belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and loves pursing her passion for physical fitness and nutrition. She lives in Tucson with her (very handsome) husband and 20-month-old son.

Summary

Cory and Cassie Jenks share their unique journey to achieving financial independence through a modified Coast FI approach. Cory, a pharmacist at the VA, and Cassie, a Nurse Practitioner at the VA, were born in Tucson, Arizona and live there today. Cory became interested in personal finance when he came across the Mr. Money Moustache blog. He thought that they were doing a good job with their finances, but quickly realized there was a lot more they could be doing. Cory was empowered to dig into personal finance and saving for retirement and knew he was capable of learning it. This ultimately sparked his interest and really pushed him to focus on where their money was going.

Cory and Cassie are using a Coast FI approach to financial independence, which is a variation of FIRE (financial independence, retire early). A purist FIRE approach says that you should save enough for 25x your annual expenses which you can then withdraw indefinitely at a 4% rate. To get to that point, you have to work really hard for 10 to 20 years. Cory explains that FIRE is a very viable path and if they would have discovered it in their mid 20s before they had kids, they might have taken that approach.

After having a child, they realized that they wanted to spend as much time with him as possible. They worked with a financial planner previously who mentioned three different pathways to saving. One of those pathways sparked their interest and Cory later learned that they were using a Coast FI approach. Coast FI (financial independence) says that if you save enough at a high rate for a short period of time early on in your life and career, it’s going to have time to compound and grow to what it needs to be by the time you want to retire. This allows you to scale back your work, or stop entirely, and use your time in a different way. Cory and Cassie don’t want to hit a number and then completely stop working and contributing to retirement, however they do want to contribute less and work less while spending more time with family and doing things they really want to be doing. Cory and Cassie’s why behind pursuing this approach are that they want control and flexibility in their schedule and are ultimately seeking more time, not money.

To figure out your Coast FI number, look at your current spending and expenses to see what you need now vs what you may need in retirement. Currently, their savings plan will give them $80,000-$100,000 a year in income. They are saving for retirement by maxing out their thrift savings accounts, a backdoor Roth IRA account and they then put any excess into a tax brokerage account all while paying extra on their mortgage principal each month.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Joining me today is Cassie and Cory Jenks to talk about their journey towards financial independence. Now we’ve talked before on this show about the Financial Independence Retire Early movement, aka the FIRE movement. And we did that in episodes 104 and 111. And we’re going to talk today with Cassie and Cory about a modified approach to FIRE, the Coast FI journey. And I think this is really going to resonate with many of our listeners that don’t want to necessarily grind it out with super aggressive saving rates for a long period of time but really also don’t want to follow a traditional path to retirement, which is work for 40+ years, save up a bunch of money, and then sail off into the sunset and hope there’s enough time and health to enjoy all that life has to offer. So Cassie and Cory, welcome to the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast.

Cory Jenks: Thanks so much for having us on.

Cassie Jenks: Yeah, thank you. We’re excited to be here.

Tim Ulbrich: I am excited as well. And I’m typically a ladies-first kind of guy, but I’m going to break that pattern today and Cory, have you introduce yourself first as you are the pharmacy representative here in the relationship. So give us a quick background on your path into pharmacy, where you went to school, and the current work that you’re doing.

Cory Jenks: Sure, well, I grew up — we live here in Tucson, and I grew up here in Tucson. And so I made the obvious choice of going across the country to the University of South Carolina for undergrad and pharmacy school. And so when I was there, I had chosen pharmacy as a path in high school, and so I picked my college based on the availability of a college of pharmacy. And really enjoyed my time as a Gamecock, and when I was finished, I realized that all of my family was here back home in Tucson. And as much as I loved it out in the southeast, I wanted to come back home. And so I came back to Tucson and did a residency here at the VA in Tucson. And I’ve been there ever since I graduated in 2011.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. So you have one of the highly sought-after VA jobs that I feel like many pharmacists — Tim Church, our very own at YFP, works at the VA in West Palm Beach, Florida, and loves it for many reasons. And I think it’s just such a good example of the level of practice that we often think of as the ideal level of practice for what a pharmacist should be doing. So Cassie, with that background, tell us a little bit about the work that you’re doing, your background, and a little bit about where you went to school.

Cassie Jenks: Sure. I’m also in healthcare, so I stayed here in Tucson. I went to the University of Arizona for my undergrad. And then got my bachelor’s of nursing in 2009. And after doing that for a few years, got a little restless. I toyed with the idea of med school but decided I wanted to have a life.

Cory Jenks: She met a strapping young pharmacy resident in 2012 that sort of —

Cassie Jenks: Yeah, met Cory —

Tim Ulbrich: That’ll happen.

Cassie Jenks: The year we met, I ended up starting grad school that year and became a nurse practitioner. And I finished with that in 2015. So I’m at the VA also, and I’ve been there pretty much since before I was even a nurse. So I’ve kind of grown up at the VA throughout my healthcare career.

Tim Ulbrich: So do you guys get to commute together or are schedules different enough that you’re kind of off sync with one another?

Cory Jenks: We had a good run of commuting. And then we had our first kid, and so the coordination of day care dropoff and pickup has sort of put a damper on the carpooling. But we did for a long time. And despite what many couples might experience, we actually really enjoyed the extra time together in the car. It’s something I kind of miss.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. And I was curious, we’re going to talk in a little bit later about cutting expenses and just curious if that was one area you were able to become more efficient on in terms of obviously gas and car maintenance. So let’s talk — before we dig into the Coast Fi and your journey to financial independence and how that differs from both the traditional, purist FIRE model as well as a more traditional retirement approach, I would love for our listeners to know why did you even become interested in this topic of personal finance to begin with? I’m always fascinated about where does this spark of an interest in this topic of money come from? Because I think you really see when people catch fire with this, it really just takes off. And often, in a couple, it can be for different reasons and maybe even different motivation levels, which is OK. So Cassie, why don’t you start? Talk to us a little bit about why and how you became interested in the topic of personal finance.

Cassie Jenks: Well, I’m going to have to give Cory some credit here. I hate to admit this ever. And especially so publicly. But he really started this for us when he came across the Mr. Money Mustache blog. He can tell you a little bit more about how he found that, but he kind of dove into that rabbit hole. And we both were always reading books and trying to learn new things, so whenever one of us learned something, the other person usually is at least willing to entertain the idea. So I started diving in myself, and it was kind of like a red pill moment. Once we started looking, we couldn’t stop.

Tim Ulbrich: So Cory, let’s talk about the triple M, the Mr. Money Mustache. So what was it about Mr. Money Mustache or even maybe some of what else you were reading that really ignited this passion to really get your financial house in order and then ultimately be on this path toward financial independence?

Cory Jenks: I think it was the gut punch of thinking that we were doing really well and realizing that there was so much more that we could be doing. We had worked with a financial adviser, and he actually had laid out — as we’ll talk about later — the different paths of savings. And so we were saving what we thought was well, and we had a couple vehicles we were using that maybe we regret, whole-life, for example, or high fee investment, after-tax investments. But it finally empowered me to feel like I can learn this. And so it’s just you read one article and then another, and it links to another blog that talks about it. And so from there, that like sparked our interest of wow, we’re spending — we’re saving “well,” but we could be saving so much more. And where is all of this money going that we work so hard to earn?

Cassie Jenks: Yeah.

Cory Jenks: And it was like a couple — it was like two periods. It was like the initial, this was 2017 of this freakout of like, oh my gosh, what are we doing? And then the sort of second impetus was as we got pregnant for the first time, thinking about moving to a new house, raising a family at a different place, we wanted to save for a down payment on our next house, and we looked down, and we’re like, well, we’ve read through Mr. Money Mustache, we’ve cut a lot of expenses, but where else is this money going that we’re going to save for our next house? And so it was just coming across YFP and any number of other different podcasts and books. And because we had done Mr. Money Mustache, it was a lot of library time. But.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think you hit the nail on the head, you know, the magic question of where is all this money going? That’s what we hear a lot from people in our community. I know Jess and I often talk about that. We’ve talked and thought that in our own journey. And one of the other, Cassie, you said, and Cory, you alluded to, which I’ll ask you a question at the end about what are some of the recommended resources or books, but I sense from both of you really a passion to learn, you know, a passion to read, to read blogs, to read books, to listen to podcasts, and I think that’s such an important takeaway for our community that man, once you catch that fire, it is a rabbit hole that you go down. And I think that’s true of so many things in life. But here, we’re talking about really catching that personal finance fire to say, OK, what would financial independence mean for us as the Jenks, as a family, what would this mean for us? And what are we willing to sacrifice to get there? And what would that sacrifice look like? And how do we get on the same page of doing that? So let’s dig into your approach to financial independence, which we’re going to refer to here as the Coast FI journey. And we’re going to link to an article in the show notes. And we know that you’re taking a little bit different path and modifying it, but really going to compare that to a traditional kind of purist FIRE approach, and as I alluded to in the into, a typical traditional retirement savings model, which is really work for 40 years, maybe save 5%, 10%, 15% of your income and then hope, as I mentioned, that you’re happy and healthy enough to enjoy everything that life has to offer. So Cory, walk us through briefly — even though we’ve talked about it in previous episodes of the podcast — walk us through the purist FIRE approach. What is FIRE? And then what really differentiates the Coast FI path from that purist FIRE approach?

Cory Jenks: Yeah. So you’ve had a couple great guests talk about their FIRE journey. But it’s essentially Financially Independent Retire Early. So you save enough and the number that is commonly used is you save enough until you have 25 times your annual expenses and then theoretically, you can withdraw that indefinitely at a 4% rate. And to get there, basically you’re going to have to really bust it for 10-20 years, depending on what your savings rate, depending on what your own spending rate is. And as Mr. Money Mustache and hundreds of other bloggers and people have shown, it’s a very viable path. And I think that if we had found that in our mid-20s before kids, like, OK, we could have sucked it up and both worked full-time hardcore to get there. But then we had a kid and realized we want to have time with them, as much as he can be a little pain. And so I came across this idea of Coast FI. And so the FI being Financially Independent. And this says that you, if you save enough at a high rate for a short period of time early on in your life and career, you’re going to have the time and compound interest to have it grow to what you need it to be by the time you retire so that if you hit this Coast FI number, you can scale back the work you’re doing, you can take a job that has a little bit more risk, knowing that you don’t need to continue to contribute to your retirement in order to hit that number. Now I love how you like to personalize this idea of personal finance because traditional FIRE people would get angry at you for not just going all the way through and maybe Coast FI people would get angry at us because our version of it is to try to get to a number but then still work some in order to save some. I don’t think we want to hit a number and then stop. So our version is like to get to the number we want and then have the freedom to contribute a little bit less as our lifestyle changes with our family.

Tim Ulbrich: And I love, love that, the personal approach. I think for many pharmacists and maybe some heard our previous episodes about FIRE and said, ‘Hey, that’s me. I really want to be there. I want to aggressively save for 10 years, I want to get to this 25x income or the amount that I would need and do the 4% withdrawal and stop working because I either don’t like my job or want to do something else,’ whatever. But I think many others, what you’re describing here is what really would resonate as well to say, ‘Hey, I want to put myself in a position of financial independence. Maybe I even love my job, but you don’t know what life will throw at you.’ It could be that you want to have more time with family, it could be that eventually hours get cut or positions get cut or one spouse in a relationship wants to have an option to work part-time or there’s a sick family member, whatever, but you put yourself in a position because you’ve gotten to some point of financial independence that as I like to say, the exponential curve of savings takes off. And I know our listeners who are in the weeds of saving right now, especially in that first five to seven to 10 years, you know what I’m talking about where you’re saving, saving, saving, grinding it out. It feels like it’s not taking off from a compound interest standpoint. And then boom! All of a sudden that really starts growing and you see that exponential growth. So Cassie, what resonated with you about this model? And really, how did you buy into this as a vision for your family?

Cassie Jenks: So the interesting thing is way back when we thought we were making smart choices and working with a financial advisor, he presented us with three different saving strategies. One was the kind of middle-of-the-road standard, save a little every year until you’re retired, one was you wait way too long and then you have to save a bunch at the end, and then he showed us one where you save aggressive up front and then it was 0s from there down and you were done saving. And we both saw that and not even knowing anything about FIRE or Coast FI, we thought, that looks smart because we don’t know what’s going to happen in the future. So that’s almost kind of always been our mindset to begin with was always do as much as you can up front. And then as I got into my working career, like you said, it’s not about not liking your job or not wanting to work. I realized I want control. I want flexibility, and I want to be able to make decisions that are the best for my family right now. And so that’s where bringing in the concepts of FIRE and Coast really made that initial idea really turn into what it is now.

Cory Jenks: Yeah, we were like accidentally Coast FI. Like we were doing this thing that we had not labeled on the Internet yet. And so I happened to come across this article about Coast FI, and I was like, “Honey, I think this is what we’re doing and now there’s a label for it.”

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. You should have branded it back then.

Cassie Jenks: Totally.

Tim Ulbrich: So you know, Cassie, one of the things that you mentioned when you met with the advisor that presented three different options, you know, the one that really resonated with you guys was aggressive upfront savings and then you can obviously continue to save, but you really could take the heat off in terms of needing to continue to save at that rate. And I think while that may resonate with many because obviously our listeners are very well educated on compound interest and time-value of money and the earlier you save, the better, the two biggest barriers I typically see to being able to do that model as it’s presented to them are student loans and that they may be in a home position that is sucking up such a big percentage of their income. So talk to us about those two areas for you guys: student loans and then ultimately the home — and I’m guessing maybe there’s some lessons here learned as well along your journey. But how have you been able to do that, despite what many pharmacists are facing, typically in high student loan debt as well as usually home expenses that certainly eat into that available income?

Cassie Jenks: So for the home expenses, I believe it was 2017, Cory did an Excel spreadsheet. And we looked at where every single penny we spent went, kind of coming back to what we were talking about earlier, where does your money go? And that was when we really started dialing down our home expenses. And we looked at all the places where we were spending money that wasn’t adding value to our life. So we stopped buying books and started going to the library. We started getting less expensive haircuts.

Cory Jenks: Cassie doesn’t charge me anything for my haircuts now.

Cassie Jenks: Yeah, I cut Cory’s hair now.

Cory Jenks: Huge savings.

Cassie Jenks: You know, they sound like little things. But we cut our phone bill, and we got rid of cable. And when we started adding all this up, it really changed our monthly expenses dramatically.

Cory Jenks: Yeah, there were a couple missteps when it comes to our housing and our student loans. I guess chronologically, I, again, am a proud Gamecock for life. But my dad teaches at the University of Arizona, not in the College of Pharmacy, but I could have had significantly reduced tuition. But they wanted me to go out of state, and so I did. And those were back in the good old days when it was only $100,000 of student loan debt that I had coming out.

Tim Ulbrich: So Cory, I think as I understand, working with the VA really afforded you an opportunity to have some of your student loans, even though you went to an out-of-state institution, had a cheaper option available, really afforded you the opportunity to be able to take some of the weight off your shoulders so that you could free up income to do other things. So tell us a little bit about what the VA provided for you in terms of student loan forgiveness.

Cory Jenks: Yeah, I was very fortunate at the time that they were offering student loan reduction program. It’s EDRP, Education Debt Reduction Program, that basically you give them your student loan debt, and they give you an amount that if you work for five years, you get x amount per year that you work. It’s an incentive to keep you employed at that particular institution. So I was fortunate enough to get that, and that really helped to cut down on my student loan burden, obviously, and I’m very fortunate to have gotten it. And so I was able to pay my loans off by 2017 I think they were totally gone. And so when you take that amount out every month, it really frees up what you have to work towards a goal like this. And for Cassie, her nurse prac school, we almost cash flowed that. She came out with like $7,000 or $8,000 of student loan debt. So that was another fortunate thing where we found each other and were able to help each other out in our journey. Once she was out and making full-time prac salary, we didn’t have that burden of her loans.

Tim Ulbrich: I love the ‘nurse prac’ lingo. I’ve never heard that before, but I feel like I’m in the club now. So that’s good.

Cassie Jenks: Nurse practitioner is just such a mouthful.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes, right? So we’ve established with this model what worked for you guys is really saying, OK, we’re going to aggressively save up — not to the level of a traditional FIRE purist approach but more so than a we’re going to save a small percentage over 40 years, we’re going to save more up front, we’re going to let that really accrue in a short period of time, and then of course, we’re going to allow compound interest to continue to do its thing over your career so you can achieve your goals but also have options to reduce hours, change jobs, stay the course, whatever. But you’re in a position of decision-making. And we established that what, in part, allowed you to do that was putting yourself in a position obviously from student loans, we talked about some of the home buying, so I want to get in the weeds a little bit more, Cory. Can you talk to us about some more details of what is your savings goal? How did you determine that number for our listeners that are maybe trying to figure out OK, what does this look like? Where do I begin? And where are you saving that money? Because I know that’s obviously a point of interest and hey, I’ve got lots of different options and should I do this in traditional retirement accounts or brokerage accounts? So talk to us a little bit more about the specifics.

Cory Jenks: Yeah. I think what we did when we were trying to figure out our “Coast FI number” was to look at what our current spending rate is now and adjust around within our budget — we meet every month and have a little budget party — and so look at what our expenses we will have now, what our expenses we likely won’t have at our time of retirement, and just come up with a number. And then we padded some to that just assuming there could be other things that we want to do or will come up. So that’s where we came up with our number of somewhere between $80,000-100,000 a year of income in retirement, which is more than we spend now. But no one’s going to be upset having a little bit more than they need. And so that’s where we came up with that number. And of course, we haven’t heard the YFP Crystal Ball segment yet, so we don’t know what life is going to be like in 30 years. So this is our best guess, our best idea of what we’ll need.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Cory Jenks: And so what we do to save, we maximize our Thrift Savings Plans, which is the government word for 401k. And we also utilize backdoor Roth IRAs and any excess that we have, we just put into an after-tax brokerage account at Vanguard in just the total stock market fund. And that way, for us, that’s our other — when there’s nowhere else to put it in a tax-advantaged place or retirement-advantaged place, we put it into Vanguard. And then something that isn’t necessarily “saving,” but we do pay down our mortgage principal extra every month as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. Yeah, I was just trying to kind of figure out — and I think this helps our listeners, you know, if you think about a traditional 401k or here a TSP, we’re looking at $19,000 a year. You think about a backdoor Roth IRA is $6,000 per year per individual. We’re going to see those go up obviously in 2020, but here we’re talking about 2019. So you start to put the numbers together, and you guys are making big savings progress, obviously those are big numbers, it’s a big chunk of your income, but it’s not the massive percentages that you see in a traditional FIRE type of model. So I think that really highlights the differences in what we’re talking about here. So I want to dig in, Cassie, to a little bit more of the why. And we’ve dodged around it a little bit, you’ve mentioned obviously for you guys a pivotal moment was the birth of your son. But talk to us a little bit more about your why, your motivation for achieving financial independence and really trying to get to this point of what’s behind the effort and at some level, the grind of both cutting expenses as well as aggressively savings, which means that you’re of course giving up some things in the short term. So talk to us a little bit about what really resonates for you, what’s most important, and then how did you and Cory have this conversation and ultimately get on the same page?

Cassie Jenks: Probably the word that would sum it up the best is control, getting to have control over how you spend your day, how you spend your time. I’ve always just not understood this idea that we’re all supposed to work 40 hours a week. It just didn’t ever make sense to me. And being able to pursue other passions, there’s things we both — we don’t dislike our jobs, but there’s things we really want to do that we can’t fit into the weekends and hobbies we want to pursue. Having time for family I think most people probably resonate with that.

Tim Ulbrich: Totally.

Cassie Jenks: Getting a balance of feeling like we are raising our child but also getting to be productive employees at the same time.

Tim Ulbrich: And Cory, what about for you?

Cory Jenks: Yeah, I think that the ultimate commodity we’re saving is not money. It’s time. And when you kind of lay out, we’re weirdos. We do a budget, but we also do a time budget every month, and so we sit down on our calendar and we have our friends that we want to see every month, we have family, we have — like Cassie said — our different hobbies and pursuits. There’s not a whole lot of other time left over after five days a week of work. And so to us, we use the term sacrificing. I think Cassie and I, we talk a lot about the gratitude is a word we throw around a lot, the idea of wanting to work less is not that we’re not grateful for all that we have, but we are very fortunate in the jobs that we pursued. My parents were both teachers, her father was in the military, so we grew up quite middle class. And so we’re very fortunate to what we have. So it’s to have that time, but it really doesn’t for us feel like it’s a sacrifice. I think we’re fortunate we found each other and that we have very similar values, dreams, ideas about money. And we frame it, we take care of veterans every day. They’ve had much rougher days at work than we’ve had. Our grandparents grew up in the depression, and they had to be frugal out of necessity, and we’re fortunate to be frugal out of kind of the privileged world that we live in now. And so when we frame it like that, it doesn’t feel like a sacrifice. And then the ultimate goal or endpoint of that is to have more time with the people we care about and to do the other pursuits aside from our 9-5 day jobs that we care about.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I really admire, Cory and Cassie, just — I respect and understand that you guys are on the same page with this, which is awesome. When two people really come together and they have a vision and you start to execute it but also don’t want our listeners to take for granted that this is hard. Two people, even when you’re often on the same page, you know, we know the friction money can cause. And I sense very much for the two of you an openness of conversation, a willingness to work to get there. And I think it’s such a reminder for me and Jess and for our listeners that it’s so fruitful when you can have those really big conversations. And then the budget, the month-to-month, really becomes an execution of the vision. And I think that’s when things start to get I guess “fun.” I don’t know if we ever use fun and budget in the same sentence. But budgeting can be such a grind. But when we’re talking about things like gratitude and really being able to capture more time and really establishing more of that family atmosphere and thinking about the next generation, and that’s what gets me excited is your 18-month-old, the position that you’re going to put your family in going forward because of all the things that you’re setting up but also everything that he’s going to observe throughout this journey, said and unsaid, is really incredible and inspiring to hear. Now, I do have to ask, Cassie, I have heard Cory say “budget party,” and I’ve heard him talk about spreadsheets. So complete nerd, obviously, of course. You know, does that resonate with you? Or for maybe some of our listeners where maybe they’re married to a financial nerd, but that’s not them. What advice would you have in terms of how someone who maybe isn’t that budget part of your spreadsheet person can really come into the fold and make sure this is a priority to the couple?

Cassie Jenks: I think talking about the why is really what gets us on the same page. I have to admit, I do kind of love spreadsheets myself.

Tim Ulbrich: OK, OK.

Cassie Jenks: But —

Cory Jenks: She also loves dark chocolate, so I get a bar of that out and it’s not hard to get her in front of that computer.

Cassie Jenks: Make your budget party fun. Like we sit down on the couch together, we have a little treat. And like Cory said, it’s our financial budget, but it’s our time budget. So we get excited making up our plans. But for us, I think what works is just that openness that everybody has to navigate finances in the relationship in a way that works for you. I totally respect that. But what’s worked for us is we know every dollar each other spends. Every account is shared, there’s really nothing hidden between us. So we have a lot of accountability. There have definitely been times where I have — I’m a little bit more of a spender than Cory. I’m not a heavy spender, but there’s times when I have an impulse to buy something. And I think, he’s going to see that, can I really justify needing this purchase right now? And that’s worked for us because we’re comfortable with that accountability together.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think it’s important for our listeners to hear in your story that it’s not just all a grind, but I sense that the two of you are having fun along the way. And it’s not just all delayed gratification. I mean, that’s a big part of it, but it’s not no fun today and all fun later. So I think one great example of that is, you know, especially the year the two of you had in 2016, which was a 30-for-30 year. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? I think that’s such a great example of having fun along the way.

Cory Jenks: Yeah. So in 2016, if anyone wants to guess our age, we turned 30 in 2016. And we were kid-free, dual income, feeling pretty good. And we wanted to do something special for turning 30 to commemorate it. And my dad — I have to give him credit — came up with this idea probably after watching ESPN of like 30-for-30. Do 30 fun, interesting things over your 30th year. Now, for us, there was some really nice trips. There was also some trips to museums, some hikes around Tucson. But it really was a special year, and as a lifelong Cubs fan and somehow who she married into it, we ended up going to a World Series game because — and we didn’t go into debt for it. We were financially prepared for it. So it was a year that allowed us a lot of fun, but it wasn’t something we look back on with regret financially. We loved every minute of it.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think for — as I heard of that and I’m guessing our listeners think the same thing, you know, that concept can be done in a very inexpensive or a very, very, very expensive way, right? I think it’s to be just as much about the memories and the planning and the fun and could be day trips, it could be something more extravagant. But I love the creativity and really making that a priority for your family. And I’m guessing you guys have a vision to do something similar as your family continues to grow. Cory, I want to ask you about your side hustle because we talk about side hustles a lot on this show, and I think you have a really unique side hustle doing improv comedy. Talk to us a little bit about that, where the motivation, where the inspiration comes from, and where you’re currently doing this work?

Cory Jenks: Yeah, so I’ve always enjoyed comedy. I watched a lot of Saturday Night Live and Simpsons as a kid. And in pharmacy school, there was an improv group at the University of South Carolina, but I was just very focused on school at the time. And so once I finished my residency, was dating Cassie, she got me an improv class through a local theater here in Tucson back in 2013. And I just did it and loved it and kept doing it. And have taught, performed, coached it. But something that really sticks out for me is that the tools of improvisation: listening, communication, teamwork, are all things that as pharmacists, healthcare providers — Cassie’s done the classes too — they’re useful and really help you connect with your patients, help you get the most out of what can be really frustrating work environments. And so doing this now for seven years, I was like, pharmacists should do this. And I’m fortunate enough to help teach a section of it here at the University of Arizona. But my side hustle now, ImprovRx, is taking this to other healthcare organizations, other colleges, other businesses, trying to teach people these tools because love it or hate it — I think we have great intergenerational workforces, but I think millennials, which Cassie and I are a part of, the generation below us and every generation can use an improvement on these skills. And not to stereotype pharmacists or pharmacy students, but we’re generally kind of Type A people.

Tim Ulbrich: Just a little bit.

Cory Jenks: Just a little bit. We were talking about how much fun spreadsheets were just a couple of minutes ago. So I’m going and I’m doing this and I’m teaching this to other organizations and in students. And I’m getting a lot of really interesting and fun feedback from people who are like, oh my gosh, yeah, you could use this to be a better listener for a patient because, you know, when it comes down to it, we can’t control a lot of our work environments. But if you can be a better listener for a patient one day, if you could be a great team member on your healthcare team, be an ear, be a better empathizer, it’s a really great tool. So that’s kind of what I’m working on right now. And it’s really exciting to get to share that.

Tim Ulbrich: I love that. And I think that’s such a great example we talk about with side hustles — and shoutout to Tim Church, he does a great job with this on our side hustle series. But I think the best side hustles are those that certainly there’s a financial piece, it helps you accelerate your goals, but it’s those things that really hit into a spot that gives you that fulfillment and allows you to serve and meet others and really identify an area that you’re passionate about but also you can essentially generate some income and make a business opportunity out of that. So I think that’s just a great example of that. Great work on what you’ve done. And I’m guessing we may have some people listening, whether it’s from colleges of pharmacy, state organizations, companies, that say, “Hey, I want to work with Cory. I want to learn more about what he’s doing with ImprovRx,” or maybe just has a question about something we’ve talked about here tonight on the show with Coast FI or what does your budgeting process look like. So where can our listeners get in touch with you if they have additional questions?

Cory Jenks: Well, I am on LinkedIn, so my name will be spelled in the show notes there. I’m also on Twitter, @CoryJenksPharmD, and then my Instagram’s more of a fun place, so it’s @pharmacomedian.

Tim Ulbrich: Love that.

Cory Jenks: And then Cassie, you’re on Twitter as well.

Cassie Jenks: I’m on, yeah, Twitter and Facebook and Instagram as —

Cory Jenks: @NPCassieJenks.

Cassie Jenks: @NPCassieJenks, yeah.

Cory Jenks: But we love talking about this stuff, whether it’s improvisation, finance, working in healthcare, it’s a really cool world we live in where I can send YFP an email saying, “Here’s a cool article about what I think my wife and I are doing.”

Tim Ulbrich: I know, right?

Cory Jenks: And we get to share that. And I think that’s really special. We really appreciate this opportunity to share our little slice of financial life with folks.

Tim Ulbrich: And I appreciate that. I’m not going to let you off the hook, though. You’re both readers, and I’m a big reader, and I’m building my 2020 reading list. So I need a book recommendation from each of you. What have you read recently that, you know, you just said, “Hey, this is a home run,” or maybe something you’re currently reading that you’re drawing inspiration from?

Cory Jenks: Alright, well, one of the books that I read at the beginning of 2020 was called “Atomic Habits.” And it’s a great book about how to break down habits — it’s not even about setting goals, it’s just kind of tricking yourself into having a better process with going about achieving your different goals. From that, I’ve developed a system for like a To-Do list that he mentions. It’s called an Eisenhower Box. People can Google it on their own time. But it’s really helped me organize all the different facets of my life, and I kind of get hung up in all of the different minutiae that can slow you down and send you into wormholes.

Tim Ulbrich: Love it. Cassie, what about you?

Cassie Jenks: Well, I have to say that Cory gave me this suggestion, so I have to give him a little credit here. But “Your Money or Your Life,” fantastic book that really dives into how much time you have to spend to make all the purchases you make in your life and to really reframe how we think about money and thinking of it more as currency of time than anything else. And that probably really drove home for me our why and what we’re trying to do with our financial journey.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. Great recommendations. We’ll link to both of those in the show notes. Cory and Cassie, thank you so much for taking time to come on the show to share your journey, share your why for what you’re doing here with the Coast FI, and I think just a different perspective for our audience to consider. I know you have inspired me, and I’m confident you’re going to do the same for our community. So thank you so much for coming on the show.

Cory Jenks: Certainly.

Cassie Jenks: Yeah, thank you.

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YFP 111: How One New Practitioner is on FIRE

Posted on August 1, 2019November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

One New Practitioner and His FIRE Journey

Jared Wonders joins Tim Ulbrich on this week’s episode. Jared is a 2012 graduate of the University of Findlay and currently works for the VA remotely doing home health care. Jared and Tim talk about how he and his wife, Jess, aggressively paid off their debt within a few years, how they got started in real estate investing, and how and why they are on a FIRE journey (financial independence, retire early).

About Today’s Guest

Jared Wonders graduated from the University of Findlay school of pharmacy in 2012 and completed a PGY-1 general residency at the Dayton VA Medical Center in 2013. Jess, his wife of two years, and Jared currently reside in Charlotte, North Carolina to pursue job opportunities and get away from the long Ohio winters. Jared has had the amazing opportunity to serve our nation’s veterans for the past 5 years as a Home-Based Primary Care Pharmacist at the Dorn VA Medical Center. Jess, who is also a pharmacist, and Jared are currently pursuing FI through a high savings rate mixed with real estate investing.

Summary

On this podcast episode, Jared Wonders joins Tim Ulbrich to give an insight of his financial journey since graduating in 2012 from the University of Findlay, how he paid off their debt within a few years, how they got started in real estate investing and how and why he and his wife Jess are on the path toward FIRE (financial independence, retire early).

Although Jared and Jess didn’t carry the debt load most pharmacists accumulate, $75,000 is still a large amount of money and requires a lot of intentionality to pay off. Jared and Jess were motivated to tackle their debt to have more opportunities in their life, have the ability to explore investments and not have to be tied to a job.

They caught the FIRE (financial independence, retire early) bug when they realized that they didn’t want to be stuck without options. Jared explains that they are trying to diversify their investments as much as possible by taking advantage of different retirement funds like the TSP offered through the VA, his wife’s 401(k) as well as looking into an HSA account.They also have two real estate investment properties and are pursuing brokerage funds like Vanguard. The real estate income is supplemental and allows them to have more control in regard to expenses with the properties. Traditional retirement vehicles are unable to be accessed until age 65 1/2 , so real estate investments provide cash flow sooner and also have tax strategies and savings. Additionally, Jared and Jess currently save 50% of their income or more. Jared says that it helps that they have two good incomes, but they also try to live frugally.

Jared discusses the purchases of their real estate properties next. He shares that the first purchase was full of pure excitement. He had done research for 8 to 10 months prior and was excited to finally take the next step in purchasing a property. The biggest issue he’s faced so far is having a good property manager, so he and his wife manage their properties. They put 20% down on a $170,000 home that’s now worth $190,000 to $200,000. They purchased the second property for $140,000 and it’s now worth $190,000 to $200,000 (paid $10,000 for renovation). Jared says that they are getting close to the 1% rule, meaning that rent should be 1% of the purchase price.

Although Jared enjoys his job, he shares that they are pursuing FIRE aggressively to create opportunities in the future. In the next 5-10 years, Jared envisions that they will focus on building more equity in their properties but will keep an eye out for good deals.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Joining me is Jared Wonders, a 2012 graduate of the University of Findlay, who completed his residency training at the VA in Dayton and currently works for the VA in South Carolina remotely doing home healthcare. Jared and his wife Jess have a fascinating journey as two new practitioners that are on the path toward financial independence. Jared, thank you so much for joining me on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast.

Jared Wonders: Hey, Tim, I want to thank you so much for giving me this opportunity. Always good to meet a fellow Buckeye.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. Go Buckeyes. So before we talk about what you’re doing with real estate investing, we’ve got some exciting late-breaking news on that related to your own journey. And before we talk about Financial Independent Retire Early, I really want to give our listeners some insight into your financial journey since graduating in 2012 from the University of Findlay, because I think all of what you did and laid the foundation has set you up on the path to be that you’re on right now, which is certainly one that I think is bright. So give us an overview of the student loan and the debt position that you and your wife Jess were facing at the point of graduation.

Jared Wonders: Yeah, absolutely. So when I graduated pharmacy school, I went and decided to go through the route of residency, so I did a residency in Dayton, Ohio, which is fortunately where my wife was actually living at the time, current wife. So we ended up moving down to North Carolina kind of just on a whim, and I was able to find a job in South Carolina working as a pharmacist. When I graduated pharmacy school, I had about $75,000 in debt, so definitely not the typical debt load that you might see with some pharmacists graduating.

Tim Ulbrich: So this is all your debt, then, not Jess’ debt.

Jared Wonders: This is all my debt. She came to the table with no debt at all. So I definitely married up in that situation for sure.

Tim Ulbrich: Well done, yes.

Jared Wonders: Yeah, so she actually was very fortunate. She went to the University of Toledo, a public school, and actually worked as a TA. So she did not come in with any debt whatsoever, which was great.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. And I think that speaks to, you know, I always talk with the students when I talk about student loans, say, “Hey, anything you can do to minimize the amount of debt at graduation makes all the difference in the world.” And here I think that’s certainly a case where being aggressive and whether it’s support from parents, scholarships, TA, anything students can do to minimize that debt load will pay off in the long term. So even though you didn’t have $160,000 like is the national average right now, $75,000 is no small chunk of change. And it still requires being intentional to get it paid off in such a short period of time. So tell me about the motivation. Why were you and Jess so adamant about aggressively paying off this debt?

Jared Wonders: Yeah, absolutely. My motivation was definitely just to have more opportunities and to kind of just give my life some sort of purpose. And I think that the one thing that really kind of catapulted me into really being aggressive with paying off my loans was actually, honestly, getting married to Jess because that just kind of gave the motivation I really needed and really thought that — you know, because I needed to provide for not only myself, but I needed to provide it for my wife. And I knew by being able to do that, paying off these loans would not be necessarily hog-tied to a job if I didn’t want to do it and would maybe be able to pursue more opportunities as far as like investments or real estate, whatnot. Yeah. So that’s pretty much where the motivation came from, honestly.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, options, options, options, right? Once you have that off your back, I mean, the rest of the story, you’ve got a lot of opportunities ahead. And we’ll talk about some of those here in a minute with real estate investing and other things. So one of the questions I want to ask you — because I think often, I’ve seen where whether it’s two pharmacists or not, couples may or may not be on the same page in terms of how aggressive they want to pay off the debt. Sometimes, there may be competing priorities like home or investing or cars or other things. Was this something that you and Jess had to work through to get on the same page? Or were you both of this mindset of hey, we need to aggressively get this off our plate?

Jared Wonders: Yeah, I think that for the most part, we are on equal pages I think for the most part of kind of going forward in that process. It did take us — of course there were some definite times where we were kind of like, well, maybe we don’t need to be necessarily as aggressive as we need to. But for me, I guess it was — actually before our marriage, I really wanted to try to get all my loans paid off before we got married. So it was one of those things where I wanted to make sure that happened, and I actually worked an extra pharmacy job in retail as well just to make sure, ensure that happens.

Tim Ulbrich: So did you guys go all in to get the $75,000 paid off? Meaning that you delayed other goals such as savings and other things? What was your approach to pay off the debt in the context of balancing other goals?

Jared Wonders: Yeah, no, that’s a great question. So we actually went the unconventional route, possibly from the Dave Ramsey crowd, and we actually did buy a house before we had all my debt paid off. We bought a house together before we got married, but it ended up working out. Obviously it worked out very well.

Tim Ulbrich: And we actually did an episode — I can’t remember it off the top of my head, we’ll reference it in the show notes — we did an episode on what we think are some of the pros and cons and some of the considerations around the Ramsey plan that people should think about. It’s certainly not a one-size-fit-all. I think for certain people, the steps are spot-on, exactly what they need. For others, depending on personal situation, how much debt you have, what else is going on, so I think certainly for the two of you, that made sense in the route that you went.

Jared Wonders: Right, and honestly, the interest rates were only going up at that point, so we kind of just wanted to lock in what we got.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. Now they’re finally coming back down, right?

Jared Wonders: Exactly.

Tim Ulbrich: It’s crazy, my wife Jess and I bought a home in October 2018 here in Columbus.

Jared Wonders: Oh yeah, congratulations.

Tim Ulbrich: I think it was a 4.62% interest rate, and now we’re back down to the 3.7-3.8%, something like that.

Jared Wonders: It’s crazy.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. So let’s talk about FIRE, Financial Independence Retire Early. And in Episode 104, we covered the basic tenets of FIRE. Again, Financial Independence Retire Early. So I don’t want to spend too much time rehashing exactly what is FIRE but rather talking more about specific plan that you and Jess are taking around FIRE and why you’re taking that route. So talk to me about why you caught the FIRE bug. What was in terms of why this concept of Financial Independence Retire Early really stood out to you as an option that you want to pursue? And really, what is the goal? What are you trying to achieve when it comes to FIRE for your personal situation?
Jared Wonders: Yeah, that’s a great question. Honestly, I think the most important thing is when pursuing FIRE, having a why. So you really need to have that why in order to really, I guess just really make it happen and really kind of just studying those goals and attaining those goals. So mine, honestly the thing that kind of pursued me and kind of got me into it was honestly like just really trying to not be stuck at a job or position I didn’t necessarily want and having those options to pursue if I really wanted to and you know, not having those golden handcuffs, if you will, and just being able to really not necessarily be hog-tied to a job for 30 or 40 years.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure. Yeah. I mean, again, options, like we talked about. And in Episode 104 when we interviewed Jason Long, he had retired at the age of 38, self-made millionaire, and he gave a lot of really good specifics about the amount and the calculations and how he determined that and how he was saving and a distribution plan. So what is the goal? Have you guys defined a number? And how aggressive are you saving to try to do that and the investment strategy in getting to that point?

Jared Wonders: Yeah, I mean, Jason has an absolutely terrific story. I would definitely reference that or definitely check out that podcast episode as well. But honestly, what we’re doing right now is we’re really trying to diversify as much as we can. So we’re taking advantage of the retirement accounts, we’re taking advantage of the TSP through the VA, which is an absolutely terrific retirement program. My wife is taking advantage of her 401k. We actually just recently looked into doing an HSA as well, so you know, the high deductible plan. The HSA we found out just is an absolutely terrific vehicle for those who haven’t looked at it. I know that you guys have done some research on that as well in previous podcasts. One of the things we stumbled upon is real estate, of course. And I mean, honestly, what we’re doing right now is we’re saving probably around 50%, maybe a little bit higher, of our income, and we’re trying to pursue those active investments like some of the brokerage funds, like doing some Vanguard, but also trying to attain our goals in real estate as well.

Tim Ulbrich: So let me talk about that for a minute because I think some pharmacists hear that and say, “Jared, 50% of your income? Like how is that even possible when you just think of life’s expenses and housing?” So what are you guys sacrificing? What are you giving up? What have you minimized costs in other areas so that you’re able to both save in traditional tax-advantaged retirement vehicles, you mentioned those: TSP, 401k, HSAs, but also be able to then build up cash reserves to get involved in some real estate investing? How are you doing that? And what are you giving up to be able to do that?

Jared Wonders: That’s a great question. We obviously have the advantage of having two great incomes right now. But I mean, for how we’re doing that is I would say we don’t do fancy stuff, honestly. We’re trying to live frugally. I mean, we’re still going out and enjoying ourselves from time-to-time, of course, but we have a goal and we have a mindset of when we want to retire, when we want these future assets to be utilized for our kids. So we just have that goal and are really focused in on that goal, on what we want to do. So honestly, that’s just kind of what’s kind of pushed us forward and getting us to that point. So it’s really just a lot of mindset. Honestly, you know, there is a little bit of luck that’s involved, but I believe that I’ve heard this reference on I think Scott Trench referenced it, but luck is the intersection of preparation and opportunity.

Tim Ulbrich: Amen.

Jared Wonders: So just being able to find that aspect and being able to prepared and kind of make yourself prepared for what’s coming I think is incredibly important.

Tim Ulbrich: So you mentioned an interested in diversifying in real estate, so let’s talk about that for a few minutes. Why real estate investing? And what do you see as the advantages of doing that and why you want that to be such a big part of your financial plan going forward?

Jared Wonders: Yeah, I think the biggest thing for us is that supplemental income that you can get through real estate. If you are a little bit more aggressive and have a paid-down real estate portfolio, then you have an income coming in, and it’s not through dividends, it’s not through other things. And I think that one of the greatest things that I love about real estate is the control that you have. So we currently have two properties that — and it’s obviously not like a huge portfolio — but we are able to control basically every single aspect when it comes to expenses, when it comes to income. I mean, there’s obviously things you can’t control like some capital expenditures and things, but you know, I can see a property and I can be like, “Oh wow, there’s carpet there. There’s a value-add. We can put in vinyl plank and the property look more appealing to renters,” those types of things. So it’s just a lot of different opportunities and things that you can do with a particular property that really just make it look better and make it more appealing for someone to actually live in.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, one of the things I enjoy — just building off of what you said there — that gets me excited about real estate investing, we’ve talked about it before on the show why I think it’s a good fit for our community to consider, and obviously, I don’t want to minimize, there is risk involved, of course, with anything. But when you think about traditional retirement vehicles, you think about accessing those at the age of 59.5, and this obviously is an opportunity to generate some cash flow sooner. It’s an opportunity to be able to have some different tax strategies and savings. But also, one of the things that I really enjoy in thinking about this — you and I talked about it before the show — is if you have that tolerance of risk, it’s I think a really fun challenge to think through. It’s a very different mindset in how we typically think as pharmacists. And there’s no ceiling on the opportunity in terms of what you’re able to do. Obviously, there’s limitations in terms of how much cash you have to invest and other types of things. But talk our audience through the IDEAL principle because I think that really helps frame the relevance and importance of why pharmacists out there may want to consider real estate investing.

Jared Wonders: Yeah, absolutely. And as pharmacists, we have the opportunity I think to actually invest in real estate and use our capital because of our good salaries as well, so because of our good income. And yeah, we had mentioned the IDEAL principle, the acronym IDEAL, which I like to use in real estate because it’s kind of a good way to kind of understand the different ways you can actually make income or offset some of your expenses that you have in real estate. And I, of course, can’t take credit for this. I’m going to give a shoutout to Bigger Pockets and Andrew Syrios, and I can’t remember the other brother, but the Syrios brothers in one of the earlier episodes, they mentioned this principle. The I stands for Income, so income being cash flow that actually comes from the property after all your expenses are paid off and everything is kind of paid off with the property. D stands for Depreciation. So the government sees the house or a home as a depreciating asset, kind of like a car or like a vehicle. So they mark it off on 27.5 years, so you basically buy a property for $100,000. They use that asset, and they divide it by 27.5 years, and you can use that depreciation to offset some of your income that you make going forward. There are some caps like as far as like income and stuff goes, so you definitely don’t want to buy a property just for tax purposes. But definitely something to look into and check out. The E stands for Equity, so as a tenant is paying off or giving you rent money, they’re actually already paying down the mortgage. Your mortgage principle is being taken down. The A stands for Appreciation. So properties typically appreciate in value, but you mentioned risk, like you said before. So 2008-2009 can happen, of course. But properties typically over a long period of time do appreciate. And then the L standing for Leverage. Now, my wife and I take a little bit less of a stance on leverage. We have leveraged two of the rental properties that we’ve bought, but we’ve bought them in a position of financial strength, which I think is incredibly important when you’re delving into real estate because we put 20% down and we have stable jobs and incomes and we’re able to kind of offset — and when we went into this going forward, we wanted to make sure that we had the reserves in place to be able to cope for anything that comes up because problems will come up. I will give you an example of one that just came up. So we had a storm come through in North Carolina, and a couple branches fall down, and you know, that’s just something that we have to deal with. I mean, stuff comes up.

Tim Ulbrich: Got to have cash reserves. Yeah, and I’m glad you mentioned that because I think, Jared, I think it’s easy to listen to something like “Bigger Pockets,” and you get all fired up and it’s like, man, I want to go buy a property tomorrow. And I think building a strong foundation — so obviously, you guys were in a position, no debt, you have reserves, I’m guessing you’re in a good equity position in your home, you’re putting 20% down, so obviously if things happen, which they will, you’re in a position to be able to handle them, market dips 5%, 10%, 15% next year, who knows what will happen, you’re able to weather some of those things and continue to move on with that plan without it being derailed. So I did just find the “Bigger Pockets” episode you were mentioning. It’s Episode 121. We’ll link to it in the show notes. “Creating the IDEAL Real Estate Investing Business with Andrew and Phillip Syrios,” and we’ll link it to our show notes for those that want to learn more about the things that you mentioned with IDEAL. So talk us through that first purchase because, you know, when I’m listening to the “Bigger Pockets” podcast, I often hear them say, “It’s about doing the first deal and getting it done.” Obviously, you don’t want to lose your money, but it’s about learning, it’s about actually doing the deal because I think so many people learn, learn, learn, read, read, read, but don’t actually do the deal. And obviously, the second one becomes a little bit easier, the third, the fourth, and so on.

Jared Wonders: Yep.

Tim Ulbrich: So when you were getting ready to do that first deal, what did that look like? And how fearful were you in that process? And what made you decide to actually finally pull the trigger?

Jared Wonders: So like I would say that the first deal was pure excitement. Like I was so pumped about this first deal because I had probably done research for 8-10 months, I did a lot of research on “Bigger Pockets,” I listened to Paula Pant. It was one of those things where I think another important thing is having an accountability partner to kind of pull you back a little bit. So my wife is my accountability partner and kind of pulling me back a little bit. The first property, I mean, it was definitely one of those things where we thought it was a good buy. And it was a good buy, and we bought it in a great area. However, we did make a lot of mistakes. That is something that I think that when you make a mistake, you can’t let it define you. You kind of have to work through it. And I think it makes you stronger on the other end of it. But you know, like you said, you have some issues that come up, of course. I don’t know if you want me to — I can give some examples because it definitely happened quite a bit. But the first one that we bought was not like a value-add, so it was one that was probably — it was pretty much rent-ready when we bought it.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.
Jared Wonders: So we were pretty much ready to have a tenant and basically move into the property. The biggest issue that came up with us was we vetted property managers, however, we probably didn’t vet them as well as we should have. So we had not a great experience with property managers, which is actually —

Tim Ulbrich: It’s funny how often you hear that.

Jared Wonders: What’s that?

Tim Ulbrich: It’s funny how often you hear that. I mean, they talk about that on the show all the time.

Jared Wonders: Oh, yeah. You really need to manage your manager. Like I can’t emphasize that enough. And honestly, for me, it’s definitely busy managing it — like we self-manage right now. It is busy, but it’s more rewarding, I think. And you get more of that control aspect back because you lose that control aspect of real estate when you do have a property manager do it. But like I said, if you have a really good property manager that you trust and is really good, then definitely — well, either send them my way —

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, right?

Jared Wonders: But no, it’s definitely very important to have great processes around you.

Tim Ulbrich: Getting a little bit more detail if you’re willing to share, how did you guys finance that first property? What was your strategy for finding the deal? How much was the property that you’re purchasing? Because I think our listeners may be thinking, hey, I’m really interested in this, but what are we talking about here? Like what would I maybe need in terms of cash and things to get started with that first deal?

Jared Wonders: Yeah, absolutely. So we put 20% down. And Charlotte is a crazy market right now, so we purchased outside of Charlotte a little bit in an area called Lake Wiley, which is a little bit south of Charlotte. It’s in South Carolina. And that was one of those things where we purchased, like I said, 20% down, so we put in about $40,000 into the deal. The property itself was about $170,000. It’s probably worth about $190,000-200,000 now, so definitely not like a property like with a big value-add, like I said.

Tim Ulbrich: Is it a single family?

Jared Wonders: It is a single family rental, yes.

Tim Ulbrich: OK. And conventional loan, 20% down?

Jared Wonders: Conventional loan. And I should probably talk about how we found the deal too. So we honestly just had a realtor that we liked, we trusted, and he would just give us leads automatically through email. And this popped up on a Saturday. I was like, oh, this is kind a cool-looking property, nice area. I checked out the area, and he responded right back. So I think having a really good realtor on your side, especially for that first deal, is really important because having a very responsive realtor is great because you can go in and see the property that same day and really check into it before it’s popped up, especially if you’re in a hot market like Charlotte is.

Tim Ulbrich: So your goal with this first property is buy-and-hold, is that correct?

Jared Wonders: Yeah, correct. That’s honestly our focus for most — actually all — the two properties that we have right now is buy-and-hold, yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: And the second one, you mentioned before we jumped on, had a little more rehab and other things involved?

Jared Wonders: Yeah. The second rehab that we had, we might have it — we talk about the acronym BRRRR, which is Buy, Rehab, Refinance, Rinse and Repeat, which we could possibly do for this property but definitely more of a value-add. We purchased this one at $140,000, and it’s probably worth about $190,0000-200,0000 now with about — I think we spent $10,000 to renovations.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Jared Wonders: So there is a pretty good amount of equity buildup in there. And we kind of are trying to get close to the 1% rule, which where you buy a property for — so I’ll use my example, the $140,000. So you buy a property for $140,000, and we’re actually going to be renting it out for $1,400, which is right at that 1% rule purchase price. And that kind of usually takes care of most of your expenses, your property management if you do want to pay for property management, repairs and maintenance that come up, and vacancy, of course.

Tim Ulbrich: So to our listeners that are hearing some of this for the first time and thinking, this is awesome and I’m cracking along but I’ve got these questions, stay tuned. We’re going to be bringing a lot more content on the podcast, on the blog, around real estate investing and trying to do some more education. Obviously, Bigger Pockets is a great resource, fantastic resource as well, and we’ll continue to bring more into the future going forward. Going back to the FIRE — and obviously, real estate investing is playing a big part in that, I want to talk about the concept of Financial Independence Retire Early. And the reason why I’m thinking about this is I’m going through re-reading — actually that audio book, so I guess re-listening — “Four-Hour Workweek” by Tim Ferriss, which is a fantastic read. And it really has me thinking more and more that the concept of early retirement is somewhat overhyped and somewhat overrated, although I think the Financial Independence piece is incredibly important. And obviously, I’m making broad generalizations. This is a unique situation for everyone. But when I hear you talk and we had our previous conversation that you really enjoy your job, you’ve got great benefits, you’re working with the VA, pharmacists have great scope of practice. I think you’re probably practicing at the top of your license, you’re teaching students and residents, so really doing a lot of neat things. And so some people may be thinking, why in the world are you so aggressively chasing Financial Independence Retire Early. So talk to us about that. Is it more about the FI, Financial Independence for you? Is it about the options? You never know what may change in the future. Give us some more input on that.

Jared Wonders: It’s more about opportunities. I think having the — I believe that Jim Collins referred to it as F-You money, so have the financial resources and those funds to I guess make it happen and just kind of pursue opportunities that you wanted to pursue that may not have been possible if you didn’t have that income at your disposal I guess. So I think that’s kind of the biggest thing why we’re pursuing this. And I’m the kind of guy that I want to be there for my kid when he has a game. I want to be there for my kid. I don’t want to be stuck at work all the time and like have to have that be something that I’m tied down to. So it’s just all about opportunities and all about something that I can pursue in the future. If something comes up, and I like it, then I’m probably going to try to do it.

Tim Ulbrich: I love that. And I even love how you shared practically what you guys are doing. It sounds like you’re kind of carving out 50% of your income, some of that going to maxing out 401k’s and TSPs, some of it you’re saving up cash for real estate so you’re ready to put money down, you’re ready to do a rehab. And then obviously, you’re going to build equity in those homes and they’re further going to generate cash flow and other types of things. So a mixture of tax-advantaged retirement savings and real estate. But I think that gives our listeners one example of a road map of something you may follow if this is an area of interest. So I’m hopeful you and Jess have had some of these conversations, you know, I’m guessing you have because your story’s awesome and what you guys are doing is pretty aggressive. But what does success look like for you guys in 5-10 years in terms of where you’re at with savings, where you’re at with real estate, maybe you have other goals and things that you’re thinking about? Where are you hoping to head in the next 5 or 10 years?

Jared Wonders: Yeah, honestly, that’s awesome. I really appreciate you asking that. So I think that the biggest thing for us is we’re probably slowing down after the second one because it’s a little more rehab, a little bit more work. It was great because I tell you, I know a lot of stuff about homes that I definitely did not know before going into the second one. So that has been really interesting. So I think we’re probably going to slow down the real estate just a little bit, maybe build a little bit more equity in these homes because I think that for us, having that income at our disposal with a fully paid-off rental property is really important to us. So that’s something that we’re going to be pursuing. But we’re definitely going to keep our eyes open for deals if they come up. And if we spot a real estate deal that we like or even could partner on or something like that, that’s something that we’re definitely going to consider taking on for sure because we really like it, we like the process, and it’s something that we both really like, really enjoy.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s good. And I think that makes all the difference when the two of you are on the same page and getting excited. And you mentioned accountability partner, which is awesome because I think that getting on the same page is so critical to be able to achieve the dreams and the visions and the why that you guys have identified for your family. Do you have — outside of Bigger Pockets and the things that you’ve mentioned, do you have a book, a podcast, a resource, something you’d recommend to our community that either has inspired you in your journey in the past or is currently inspiring you in your journey towards this quest of Financial Independence?
Jared Wonders: Oh my gosh, there’s so many. But I’ll list my top three that I really enjoy. My first one is the guys at ChooseFI are absolutely incredible. Jonathan and Brad Barrett are just outstanding to listen to.

Tim Ulbrich: One of which is a pharmacist. That’s cool.

Jared Wonders: And Jonathan was a former pharmacist. Like that was one of the things that really got me hooked on the FI, honestly. The second one is Paula Pant. Paula Pant’s interviewing skills are just terrific. I would encourage anyone that is pursuing FI to listen to the Suze Orman episode because that is just an absolute hoot to listen to.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s a good one.

Jared Wonders: It will get you fired up if you’re wanting to pursue FI. But she is a great interviewer, and she’s outstanding on her FI journey and does a lot of real estate and everything. My third one is Chad Carson. He just recently had a book come out, and I think it was called “How to Retire Early on Real Estate.” That kind of was a little bit more in tune of me and Jess’ goals as far as like not — we don’t want to be real estate moguls and have thousands of properties. We want to just have a couple properties, kind of give us that cash flow, and kind of be able to just kind of live on that in the future and have those options. So that was an incredible read.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. And that book, “Retire Early with Real Estate: How smart investing can help you.” So we’ll link to that in the — or “How smart investing can help you escape the 9-5 grind and do more of what matters.” So we’ll link to that in the show notes. So for our listeners that have heard your story, are fired up and say, hey, I’d really like to get in contact with Jared, how can our listeners reach out to you if this is something they’re interested in learning more about?

Jared Wonders: Yeah, reaching out to me on Bigger Pockets is great. And I’m actually not really on social media too much, so Bigger Pockets is probably the biggest social media advocate or arena that I’m in. You can honestly just shoot me an email too. [email protected].

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. Yeah, and for those not familiar with the Bigger Pockets community, easy to sign up. And from there, you can connect with others. I would highly recommend that as well. And to our listeners that are interested in learning more about FIRE, again, make sure to check out Episode 104 of the podcast where I interviewed Jason Long about his journey, including how he retired from community pharmacy at the age of 38 as a self-made millionaire. And I’d also recommend the blog post written by Jeff Kymer on our site, “The FIRE Prescription: How to retire early as a pharmacist,” which is available along with all of our blog posts at YourFinancialPharmacist.com/blog. So Jared, thank you so much for reaching out, No. 1, No. 2, coming on the show. You have got me fired up, and I enjoyed both of our conversations. And I have a feeling this is just the beginning to hopefully some exciting collaborations and future with the community as well. So thanks for coming on the show.
Jared Wonders: Absolutely. And I want to say congratulations again for getting to 100 podcast episodes, that’s incredible.

Tim Ulbrich: Thank you, appreciate that. And as always, to the YFP community, if you like what you heard on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, make sure to leave us a review and rating on iTunes, Apple podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts each and every week. As always, we appreciate you joining us for the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 104: Jason Long’s FIRE Journey

Posted on June 13, 2019May 9, 2023 by yfpadmin

Jason Long’s FIRE Journey

Jason Long joins Tim Ulbrich to share how he retired from his retail pharmacy job at the age of 38. Jason dives into what the FIRE methodology is and how he and his wife saved for retirement.

About Today’s Guest

Jason Long is a husband, former retail pharmacist, early retiree at age 38, self-made millionaire, distance runner, author of three books, and advocate of rational thought. He holds a Bachelor of Science cum laude in Chemistry from Middle Tennessee State University and a Doctorate in Pharmacy cum laude from Mercer University. Since retirement, he has volunteered as a tour guide at a natural history museum, a teacher for a non-profit ESL program, a marathon pacer at numerous charity events, and a voter registration assistant. He is the current state half-marathon champion and former state full-marathon champion. His interests include Japanese culture, classic cinema, classic music, astrophysics, running, cycling, swimming, traveling, reading, painting, and playing video games.

Summary

Jason Long retired from his retail pharmacy job at age 38. He was able to retire at such a young age by seeking out FIRE (financial independence, retire early). Jason shares that FIRE is a lifestyle choice that’s starting to spread to more people. This methodology is less interested in wealth accumulation and is more focused on leading a meaningful existence, in Jason’s opinion. Jason was able to save up enough money to where the revenue from his investments will provide enough income to live on, meaning he no longer has to work for money.

Jason shares the FIRE is based on the Trinity study which focused on sustainable withdrawal rates for retirement spending. If you have a million dollars, you can withdraw 3-4% a year, giving you an income of $30,000 to $40,000 a year. Jason says that you have a 95% chance to still have money left if you’re withdrawing this amount for 30 years. He and his wife have closer to a 3% withdrawal rate and he’s not worried about them running out of money.

In June 2017, Jason retired at age 38 after saving just over $1 million. He says that it’s still surreal that he’s been retired for two years as it hasn’t fully sunk in yet. Jason decided to pursue the FIRE route in 2005. He was in his last year of pharmacy school and had come to the realization that pharmacy wasn’t what he wanted to do in life. He became curious to know where he’d be in the future if he lived at the same standard of living as his parents did but earned a pharmacist’s salary. He used a spreadsheet to start calculating scenarios and found that if he was earning $105,000 but only spent $35,000 a year, around the age 39 or 40 a return on investment from his portfolio would exceed the cost of living. He didn’t realize that this was a methodology that others were using. In 2015 he found others who were also following this FIRE path.

To reach $1 million, which was in savings only and doesn’t include social security or home equity), Jason and his wife really stuck to only spending $30,000-35,000 a year. His starting salary as a pharmacist was $110,000. The first step they took was to buy a house, but not a mansion. Then, all their money after maxing out 401ks and IRAs, went into Vanguard accounts. They steered clear of getting caught up in big buckets that drive up expenses, like expensive homes and cars. Jason reminds listeners that houses depreciate in value and land appreciates and feels like viewing home ownership as an investment is a myth.

Jason explains that you have to shift your focus and remember that earning $30,000 a year gives you a better standard of living than 99% of people who have ever lived on this planet and to not compare yourself to others. He also shares that it’s necessary to invest beyond a 401k or IRA if you’re wanting to retire before age 59 ½ as there are federal limits to those accounts. Lastly, he shares that happiness doesn’t come from having material things, instead it comes from being financially secure, from having your life in order and being content with what you have.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to this week of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Excited for this episode. I’ve been wanting to talk about the FIRE movement for some time, FIRE standing for Financial Independence Retire Early, and I’m glad to have the opportunity today to do that alongside of Jason Long, a pharmacist that retired at the age of 38. So Jason, welcome to the podcast.

Jason Long: Ah, thank you for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Excited to be here, and I have to start by telling our listeners, which I think is just an indicator of what FIRE is all about, when we were trying to schedule this interview, you know, I think I first started out by proposing several dates and times, and your response was something along the lines of, “Hey, I’m retired. I can do this whenever.” So here we are, and obviously, flexibility of time and freedom of time is one of the positive aspects of Financial Independence Retire Early, and we’ll talk about that. And when I heard about your story, it was published in the New York Times, and we will reference that and link to that in our show notes, and that story from the Times mentioning your retirement at the age of 38, leaving a job making roughly $150,000 a year, I thought, we have to have him on the show. And I think that there’s many pharmacists that will not only be interested in your story but may have similar aspirations and want to know why you did it and how you did it and certainly what could be the path for them to move into that in the future. So before we jump into the specifics of your story and how you achieved early retirement, let’s talk about what exactly is FIRE. I think many people may not be familiar with that concept. So Jason, give us a summary of what is Financial Independence Retire Early. What is this movement all about? And what defines someone achieving FIRE status?

Jason Long: Well, I don’t know it’s so much of a movement as it is just a lifestyle choice that’s starting to grow. I think people, my generation, younger, are becoming a little less interested in wealth accumulation and just living a meaningful existence. And the whole thing with being financially independent, retire early is that you have saved up enough money to where the revenue from your investments will provide enough income for you to live on. That can be a small amount or that can be a large amount. It’s just up to the individual. But yeah, it’s basically just not ever having to work for money. That doesn’t mean you can’t work or that you don’t have something going on on the side, but in my instance, I don’t really have anything going on. I’m just living off the income from the investments.

Tim Ulbrich: So we’ll come back later and talk about your withdrawal and how you’re functionally doing this, but just to build off of what you said, is there kind of a specific rule of thumb in terms of, you know, x amount is needed to be able to draw this much so that you can live off the savings? Knowing that that could be different from one person to another. But what typically is that definition in terms of what is needed to get to that point of achieving FIRE?

Jason Long: Sure. There’s some debate around that. But the generally agreed upon amount is based on something called the Trinity Study. It was done a few years ago to see what percentage you could withdraw on a year-to-year basis. And the way that works is — we’ll just use some round numbers for example. If you have $1 million, you can withdraw something like 3-4% per year, that would be $30,000-40,000. The Trinity Study said that if you withdrew 4% per year and adjusted upward for inflation, and you didn’t adjust that $40,000 amount based on market performance, that you would have a 95% chance over 30 years to still have money left. Turns out the original researchers have amended that to actually be 4.5% because expense ratios have dropped. The cost of managing your money has actually decreased over the years. A lot of people will do it themselves or they’ll use fiduciaries. But for a longer timespan, a lot of people are looking at 4%, maybe 3.5%. In our instance, we’re actually a little closer to 3%. So there’s no historical precedent for a 3% withdrawal rate.

Tim Ulbrich: So just again, for our listeners to get a step back, the idea being here that you’re building up some type of nest egg, for lack of a better word, you know, it could be $1 million, it could be $1.5, $2 million. And then some percentage, you know 3-4%, which obviously what we’re getting to is that what you’re going to be living on and what you need in that nest egg is largely driven off of your expenses and that percentage and of course trying to maintain that amount so you’re not having to dip into that over time. So let’s get into for you specifically, June 2017, the day you retired at the age of 38. You noted on your blog it was the day before you’re 20th anniversary from high school graduation. And at the time, you had savings of just over $1 million. So talk us through what you were feeling at this point in time. I mean, obviously you made the decision that you were going to retire. Were you anxious? Were you excited? All of the above? Talk us through that situation.

Jason Long: Well, honestly, it was a little anticlimactic. You reach a certain amount that you want to get to, and that’s a great day. But it’s not like you’ve reached the finish line, you know? There’s a few things you have to brush up on. And I don’t know, I guess it was kind of surreal to realize that, you know, I had just called and put in my work notice. And two weeks from then, I would work my final shift and then never have to go back to it. There was a sense of relief, I guess, that I’m not — you know, it’s been almost two years, and I don’t think it’s fully sunken in yet. But anxiety, no. Like I said, there’s no historical precedent for a 3% withdrawal rate to fail. Now, that doesn’t mean there’s not going to be unforeseen expenses or that there couldn’t be some future event that might bring catastrophe. I mean, there’s always a chance of an astroid strike or nuclear war or what have you. I mean, but all we have to go on is historical precedent. And we have even a slight buffer above that, I think maybe 3.2%. If you were to have retired in 1968, I think is the worst year you could have picked due to a flat market and large inflation. But you know, even now, we’ve moved up to $1.2, so it’s so far out of the realm of danger that I don’t ever give it any thought.

Tim Ulbrich: Right. Which I’m glad you brought that up, Jason, because I think often, people hear FIRE, and they think risk and without really digging into the math and what do the numbers say, and I appreciate your comments around kind of the historical perspective and 3%. And I would argue, as I think you would agree with me, I mean, people who are $200,000 in debt that have no savings, that are spending all of their income working for whomever, that that job could change tomorrow, go away, whatever. Obviously, there’s a risk position in that that has to be considered as well.
Jason Long: Another risk that a lot of people overlook is that you risk wasting your life working 30-40 years in a job that you really despise. I mean, so is the alternative of going broke early really that bad?

Tim Ulbrich: Well, and I’ll talk about this at the end, but I’m grateful to be in a position that I love what I do each and every day, and I know many pharmacists do. Some do not. And so I think if for somebody for whatever reason does not and there’s not another opportunity that’s available or for whatever reason the transition can’t happen or maybe somebody has found themselves in a career path that wasn’t necessarily a great fit, then I think the FIRE option and really digging into the math, as we’ll talk about here in a little bit, is certainly a viable option. But if nothing else, as I think about the Financial Independence, Retire Early, I’m passionate about independence period, whether or not there’s the retire early component of it. As I’ve talk about before on this show, having options and having flexibility is always a good thing. You never know what’s going to be thrown at you in terms of life events, and you never know what may change over the course of time, either related to your interests or the profession or other variables. And so when did you, Jason, when did you determine that you were going to pursue this route? And talk us through not only when that moment was or roughly that moment was — because obviously, there had to be a timeline of planning to go to a place to accomplish what you did — but also what motivated some of that decision to pursue early retirement.

Jason Long: I think it was 2005, I was in my last year of pharmacy school. And I had kind of come to the realization that it wasn’t exactly what I wanted to do in life. And you know, how I got to that point there is a different story altogether, but I was putting some spreadsheets around, and I was just kind of curious — I was like, if I lived at the same standard of living that my parents had, but I made the amount of money that a pharmacist does, where would I be at financially at age 40, 50, 60, 65? Just running the numbers just to see. And I think I had assumed — I don’t know what pharmacists were making. I think maybe $105,000-110,000 a year. And you know, we grew up working class. Just my dad worked, and my mom took care of the kids, but made about $35,000-40,000 a year. And then I assumed maybe like 3% interest, which was pretty safe at the time, just based on a CD or whatnot. And I plugged those numbers into the spreadsheet, and I noticed a strange thing kind of happened around age 40. I was 26, so somewhere around age 39-40, I noticed that the Return on Investment from the portfolio exceeded the actual cost of living at that point.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Jason Long: So I was like, this is strange. You could foresee, you could feasibly have the amount of money to live off of by not working. And being naive like I was at the time, I just kind of thought, well, hey, I’ve discovered something here. And I went all the way to probably 2015 never having encountered another person who had discovered this. And then I kind of did a Google search one day. I was like, well, yeah, that was kind of stupid of me. There were plenty of people. And you described it as a FIRE movement. So yeah, that was the day back in ‘05, I said, you know, I don’t think I really want to be a pharmacist. I was like, but you know, I’m three-quarters of the way across the street. I’m going to go ahead and cross it and put in 12 years, 13 years, 14 years, and try to make the best of it that I can. And then when that day comes, I can kind of transition over to something else if I want to do something else or if I just want to sit around and play video games and watch movies, I can do that too.

Tim Ulbrich: So I’m going to read something from your blog before we jump in and talk about the saving strategy and how you actually did it and how much you were saving because I think it resonated to me a little bit about your journey and put some life to kind of your passion and motivation. From the blog is, “It’s been said that retirement is merely a decision to stop trading time for money. Since I no longer need more of the latter to sustain my standard of living and since I do not enjoy, never have enjoyed, the primary method at my disposal to acquire the latter, I have decided that the former is of more value to me going in life.” So you mentioned, Jason, kind of your last year of pharmacy school, 2005, and then obviously you had a 12-year time period roughly to that point where you actually retired. And so we look at that point of retirement at the age of 38, you’ve got a little over $1 million, so that’s a fairly short runway to get to a net worth of $1 million or more. And to clarify for our listeners, we’re only talking here in terms of savings. So we’re not talking about home or other assets, and we’ll come back to that in the future. So we’re purely talking about savings that had been accrued over time. So how did you practically do it? For those that are listening, thinking, hey, maybe this is a path that I’m interested in in some shape or form, you know, what percentage of your income were you saving? And where did you put it? And how did you get to that point?

Jason Long: Sure. Like I said, I think I started out at about $110,000 a year and was spending $30,000 a year, not including the house payment I believe. It may have been $25,000 plus the house payment.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Jason Long: But my first step was to, of course, buy a house. And I say house, I don’t say mansion or McMansion, or something on a cul-de-sac near a golf course, you know. If you want those things, that’s great. But you really have to step back and ask yourself, is it going to make you happier? Is it worth trading perhaps 10 years of your life to have a nicer place, maybe even just to impress people that you don’t like? But you know, our answer was a 1,600-square foot house in a neighborhood in Ohio. And I think that house was $120,000 or $125,000. We paid that off in about two years, maybe. And after that, all the money went into — well, of course, at the time, we were doing the 401k, IRA, contributions. I think after that, it pretty much transitioned — well, after a few years, we had moved back to Tennessee and had gotten more land and we built another house here. But after all the house and real estate was paid off, which was maybe around 2010, all the money went into a Vanguard account. And there are a different number of companies you can use. I like Vanguard because they’re nonprofit, and they have low expense ratios. But yeah, you just basically open up an account and decide what you want to invest in. There’s, again, a lot of healthy debate about your asset allocation. But the main things that I look for are index funds. And that is basically just a — you can think of a mutual fund as being a collection of stocks. But an index fund is a collection of basically all stocks on an index, like an S&P or the Dow or the Nasdaq or whatever. Vanguard offers one called the ETSAX, or basically all U.S. stocks. So instead of trying to pick and choose or knowing or pretending that you know things about a company that you don’t, you can invest in the market as a whole. And there’s very little management that goes into that. Therefore, there’s very little expense that Vanguard charges you to manage that fund. I think it’s at least maybe .04% per year. But you open that up, and anything in excess of what you can contribute to your 401k and your IRA, we would put into that.

Tim Ulbrich: I love the approach of low expense. And you mentioned the advantage of those coming down historically. I mean, I personally have funds, .03%, .04%, .05%, .06%. And so you, I think from the blog I saw, you rep basically three major funds, roughly 60% in U.S. stock index fund, 20% in an international index fund, and 20% in a municipal bond index fund. So keeping it simple, keeping the expenses down. So am I correct, then, as I look back and hear you say making over $100,000 a year, obviously started at $110,000, that went up, your expenses roughly $30,000 a year. So you were saving north of 70% of income? Or were there other expenses not accounted for?

Jason Long: No, it was about 70% per year. I think it’s probably important — some people are going to be listening to this and pulling their hair out over $30,000 a year. That’s not probably feasible out on the Coast. If you’re in New York, LA, Silicon Valley, whatever, you’re listening to, you’re paying $30,000 a year probably in just rent. But the cost of living out in rural Tennessee is a lot lower. So yeah, I think I ended up — we started out maybe about $30,000. It may have moved up to about $36,000.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Jason Long: One of the things you have to watch out for is something called lifestyle inflation. You know, that’s where you’re starting to make more money, and then you start to get more tempted about buying things that maybe you want and don’t really need. So you’ve just got to make your choices there.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I know you’re very well, obviously, versed in this. And our community is as well, but I talk a lot about cost of living, as you mentioned, West Coast, Northeast, other cities, other areas, obviously even within Ohio, cost of living varies significantly from one part to the next. But pharmacists’ salaries don’t adjust accordingly, in terms of at least accounting or offsetting that. I mean, maybe slightly. You know, for example, let’s say an average pharmacist’s salary in Ohio, let’s say is $110,000-115,000, maybe that’s $120,000 to $125,000 to $130,000 out in California, but that percentage bump is nowhere near obviously the cost of living difference from rural Ohio, rural Tennessee to the West Coast. And as we think about retirement and what you need and coming up with that calculation, determining that number, that expense number is really what’s driving that. So if you’re making $100,000 a year, and your expenses are $90,000 a year, that runway to retirement and what you need obviously is much, much longer. If you’re making $100,000 a year, and you determine that you can swing it either through strategically cutting expenses, cheaper on home, cheaper on car, strategically choosing where you live, obviously, there’s some sacrifice here in the equation, although we talked about what you’re weighing that against as a potential pro, but that is a much different nest egg that you need. And obviously, your situation of what you’re living off of I think highlights that perfectly. So I do want to highlight, Jason, to just build off of what you said, I mean, buying a relatively small home, affordable home, $120,000-125,000, paying that off quickly, you know, for me — and I’ve seen this in my own life but also in working with many other pharmacists — home and cars tend to be, you know, probably the two big buckets that can drive up expenses. Certainly many other things that go into lifestyle creep, but you know, if a home is 40-50% of your take-home pay, it’s going to be difficult to keep these expenses down. So for those listening that have not yet purchased a home, I think strategically looking at the home buying, especially if this concept is a priority, and keeping the cars down, really focusing on money going into assets and things that are growing and not depreciating value is really important.

Jason Long: Yeah. You know, a lot of people don’t realize, houses depreciate in value.

Tim Ulbrich: I agree.

Jason Long: There has been a lot of research on this. Land appreciates, houses depreciate. There’s been a myth that home owning is an investment. And it’s just not. At best, you can probably hope to break even.

Tim Ulbrich: Break even, yep.

Jason Long: And you know, that’s fine. You know, I’m not judging how other people live. But to get philosophical about it, people need to ask themselves, like I said, are they going to be happier having a large house? You know, George Carlin, comedian, once said — and I’ll clean this up a bit for the podcast.

Tim Ulbrich: Appreciate it. We don’t have the explicit rating, so I appreciate that.

Jason Long: He said, “People buy stuff they don’t need with money they don’t have to impress people they don’t like.” And when you realize that happiness doesn’t come from having things, happiness comes from outside. It’s from being financially secure, it’s from having your life in order, it’s from being content with what you have. When you realize that, and you realize that you’re probably not going to be that much happier in a $.5 million home versus a $100,000 home, you know, that opens up all sorts of possibilities for you. The house and the car, you know, if you’re the kind of person who wants people to look at you and think highly of you and envy you because you’re driving the $50,000 Lexus, that’s fine. I’m not going to judge how that person lives, but I guarantee that the person driving that car is not any happier for having that car than someone who’s driving a dependable $10,000 car.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. Great stuff there. I think a lot for our listeners to take away and reflect on there as they think about their future plan and what matters most. And I would reference to our listeners, and we’ll link in the show notes, you know, Jason, I mentioned earlier, often — before we recorded — I mentioned often when I ask a group, “Hey, have you heard of FIRE?” typically, I don’t get a whole lot of hands raised. But when I say, “Hey, have you heard of Mr. Money Mustache?” people are like, “Yes, I have!” So I’m going to link to an article back from 2012, I know it’s a very popular article but really highlights the importance of looking at the math on this, and that article’s called the shockingly simple math behind early retirement. And you know, essentially what Jason’s highlighting with his own journey, what that article highlights is that saving a significant percentage of your income and keeping your expenses down really changes the projected timeline to retire. And so, for example, saving 50% of your income towards retirement can move that timeline of retirement from 50 years down to less than 20 years. So again, for you, when you talk about your journey and putting numbers into a spreadsheet, whether it’s looking at an article like this, I think it’s a matter of doing the math, looking at the expenses, and asking yourself some more of those philosophical questions that you had talked about.

Jason Long: Yeah, let me say one other thing. People who question whether or not they want to live on a $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 a year or whatever, it’s good to remember that $30,000 a year is higher, gives you a better standard of living than 99% of people who have ever lived on Earth. And if you find that I don’t think I could live that cheap, then that statistic should probably tell you, it might be a good idea to reevaluate your position in life.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, Jason, I’m so glad you said that. One of the point of comparisons I often use because I think it’s helpful for pharmacists to shift the point of reference away from peers because it’s not a helpful comparison.

Jason Long: Comparison is the thief of joy.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes, yes. And often, I’ll talk with resident that, you know, residents’ salaries have actually come up, some in the mid-$40,000’s, low $50,000’s. And I hear things like, I can’t save anything, I can’t make any headway in my student loans. And I get it, cost of living is different, no judgment in terms of that. But if you shift the point of comparison to what you just mentioned or the median household income for a family of four in this country is in the low- to mid-$50,000’s. I think shifting that point of comparison can help put some of that into perspective. So one of the things I want to talk about, Jason, and you mentioned in your story, I read in your blog, is that you’re purely looking at the numbers based off of the investments that you’ve grown north of $1 million. And you’re obviously trying to draw that down — or not draw that down, I’m sorry — live off a percentage of the growth so that you’re not drawing from and letting that fall below $1 million. But you are not including any of your assets in terms of house or land or other assets, or you’re not banking on social security or inheritances, equity in the home, other types of things, correct? You’re purely just looking at the savings component?

Jason Long: Yeah, I would say equity on the home would be an absolute last resort, you know, absolute worst-case scenario, not even historical precedent but an unprecedented territory would you have to rely on house equity or social security or inheritance or anything like that. I fully expect those things to be there, but I’m just not going to rely on them.

Tim Ulbrich: OK. So in terms of the withdrawal plan, currently, you mentioned the numbers you’re working off of. So what does that practically look like month-by-month if you look at the percentage that you’re drawing from, trying to keep the portfolio above $1 million?

Jason Long: Yeah, so basically, just assume $1 million and assume $30,000 a year of living expenses. Quick, back-of-the-envelope math, that’s 3% a year. A lot of people may say, “Well, hold on. The average return on investment in the market historically, adjusted for inflation, is 7%.” And some people may say 10%. Dave Ramsey’s one of them who greatly overestimates what the market returns. But the reason you can’t withdraw 7% a year is something called sequence risk. And that is when is the bad year going to come?

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Jason Long: And these scenarios, these simulations, you can play out basically shows that if you get the bad years up front, it’s going to have a lot more impact than having the bad years toward the back.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Jason Long: So you have to put that extra buffer in. You can’t just assume that you’re going to get the steady 7% a year. You will run out of money if you do it that way. So yeah, we basically just withdraw out whatever we need to every month. In our case, we’re on about 3.5% withdrawal, minus whatever the side income might be coming in from a variety of different sources. But yeah, it’s just log on every month and see where you’re at and withdraw what you need to pay off the credit card and rebalance and go from there.

Tim Ulbrich: So Jason, I’m sure many pharmacists are thinking, hey, I’ve got an employer match in a 401k or should I be taking advantage of those types of retirement accounts that have tax advantages, 401k’s, 403b’s, Roth IRAs, and you mentioned earlier that you did a little bit of that. But obviously, you’re depending on assets that you can draw before the age of 59.5 without a penalty. So any words of wisdom or advice for people that are thinking about trying to achieve retirement status prior to the age of 59.5 where they would need funds? And how they might think about balancing where they’re putting their money?

Jason Long: Yeah, if you’re wanting to retire before traditional age, before 59.5, it’s going to be necessary to invest beyond 401k and IRA. There are federal limits to what you can contribute to those. So you’re going to have to invest in taxable accounts. And you put that into some investment firm like, like I mentioned, Vanguard. You put all your money into that after you’ve contributed to the 401k, IRA. And like you had said, you have to be mindful of the fact that it’s not easy to get your money before 59.5. There is a clause called 72T. Basically, if you convert your IRA over to an annuity and take a certain amount of withdrawals per year based on your expected living, you’re allowed to withdraw it without penalty. I don’t know exactly how it works. I don’t plan on having to dip into that. We have enough in our already taxed accounts to go until maybe 60, 61, 62. But yeah, you have to be mindful that there is a 10% withdrawal penalty on the 401k. And that’s on top of any taxes you’d have to pay because it does count as regular income. I’m probably not the best person to ask about all that. I’m, of course, not a financial advisor. You just have to be mindful that you’re going to have to pay penalties if you withdraw the wrong way. And that’s going to increase your cost of living.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think the takeaway there for our listeners is to be thinking about those logistics in advance and where you’re putting your money and some of the tax implications and things if this is a desire that they have to retire before traditional age. So Jason, one of the counterarguments to the FIRE movement is, you know, you’ve got 50+ years of living and satisfaction from work and social connections from work and fulfillment and won’t you get bored? You know, that type of a thing. Which I know is a very individualized situation and really depends on current fulfillment from work and hobbies and other types of things. So talk us through a little bit of that and what you’re currently doing with your time and hobbies and interests and things that you’re working on and exploring.

Jason Long: So basically, I guess it would be fair to say I do what I want. I have a ton of hobbies. I do volunteer work. I have picked up a lot more of the housework and errands and things like that since I’ve left. I’ve been able to spend more time with family. As far as like hobbies, you know, like anyone else, I read and watch movies, play video games. I build things. I exercise, I run, I cycle, swim, go to the gym, cook, kayak. I picked up some new things: golf, started collecting baseball cards again, which is something I haven’t done since I was a child. I volunteered. I’ve been a tour guide at Natural History Museum. I have taught English as a second language to adults here for a nonprofit. I volunteered in voter registration. I’ve done litter pickup. It’s just a lot of things to keep you busy. And if for some reason, you eventually run out of things, you can always go back to work, you know? There’s nothing saying you have to stay this way. But yeah, I’m pretty much on my own schedule. And I do what I want when I wake up.

Tim Ulbrich: So I think you probably answered this question for me in the list of things that you’ve been doing and even new things that you’ve picked up, but I have to ask the question, do you have any regrets looking back?

Jason Long: Zero.

Tim Ulbrich: OK. Awesome. So one of the questions I have is I’m guessing we have many of our listeners that are hearing your story and thinking maybe for the first time or second time, this might be a path they want to pursue or at least be on a path toward financial independence, whether or not they decide to retire early. However, many of our listeners, what we know is the average student loan debt, $160,000 a year, we have some salary compression that’s going on, 32 hours often is sort of the new 40. So for a graduate today coming out with $150,000-160,000 of debt, let’s say they’re making $100,000 a year, is FIRE an option for them? I mean, is that a path they can pursue? And if so, what advice would you have for somebody listening today that is looking at their debt load and looking at things and saying, I’m not even sure this is an option.

Jason Long: It’s always an option. It’s just depending on the circumstances, it may take you a little bit longer to get there than it did, say, 10-15 years ago. As far as the steps, you know, it’s going to vary on an individual basis. It’s going to be dependent upon what your student loan interest is. It’s going to depend on what your mortgage interest is. We — personally, I took the safe route, and I paid off the house first. The house mortgage was only 5% a year. Well, I could have put that money in the market instead and make, on average, 7% a year. So maybe that wasn’t the smartest choice, but it was probably the safest choice. If a person has student loans at, say, let’s say they have some at 7% and they have some at 4% and then they have a house at 6%, it makes sense to go ahead and pay off the 7% student loans first and then the 6% house and then the 4% student loans. Or you could maybe go the route of well, I’m just going to not worry about that. And I’m going to invest in the market first. And you know, maybe that works out for you. And maybe it doesn’t. The safest route is to just pay off your highest interest rate loans first. And work your way down from there.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and if I could build on what you said there, you know, since your number is pretty much on target, many of the students coming out today with their pharmacy loans, unsubsidized, 6-7%, but there are options out there that I think somebody could look into as a strategy to allow them to invest aggressively. So we’ve talked before on the podcast about loan forgiveness, which certainly comes with risks that need to be evaluated, although appropriately evaluating the risk and the benefit, but obviously being a strategy that could allow for freeing up additional moneys to invest and invest more aggressively at a younger age, looking at competitive refinancing rates that can lower your interest rate and incentivize investing. So really looking at the options that are available out there if this is a path that somebody wants to pursue. So Jason, let me end here by asking for your recommendation for something that helped you on your journey, learning more about FIRE and kind of strategies around pursuing this, whether that be a book, a blog, a podcast. Is there a resource you would recommend that was helpful for you?

Jason Long: I have a pretty unconventional one. It’s “Walden” by Henry David Thoreau. I’m sure a lot of people have read it in high school or whatever. But it’s basically just the accounts of one man going to live off in nature for a couple years and realizing, hey, I don’t need money to do this. I’m happy. And then he would have visitors come over and be like, well, why are you eating this? Why don’t you eat nicer things? And he’s like, well, you’re only eating nicer things to compensate for the stress that you’re experiencing in your daily life. I kind of like to think of that as maybe the original Financial Independence book. It’s probably not, but it is pretty influential on my mind mindset as far as not wanting things I don’t need, just being content with what you have. Because like I said, I didn’t even realize this was a movement, a so-called movement or a thing until about 2015. There’s a lot of good stuff out there. There’s — some of the people that got me started — or not got me started but kind of helped me along the way there toward the end was on Reddit. There’s a sub-Reddit on there called “Financial Independence” that people can basically share their stories, share their goals, ask questions, and it’s a helpful community. You know, there are maybe a few naysayers on there. You have to be mindful of the fact not everyone is fortunate enough to have a six-figure job, you know. A lot of people say, well, it’s all hard work and this and that. You know, I couldn’t disagree more. No. You did nothing to be born in this country. You did nothing to be born in this era. You did nothing to be born intelligent. You did nothing to be born with good, helpful parents. You know, it takes a lot of different things to be in this situation. But when you find yourself in this situation, yes, it does require hard work and discipline to be able to do it. But always be mindful of the fact that if this is a thing that you can even think about doing, there are a lot of factors that went into that that’s beyond your control. You got lucky. The rest of it, the hard work, that’s up to you. So don’t go preaching to other people about how you can do it. If you go on these forums, be mindful that there are people on there who may not have had the same opportunities as you did. So be careful about what you say because there are real people online, and they can be hurt by, you know, what you say on there.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think, Jason, it’s a great reminder that there is not one right financial path or plan. And I think what I really appreciate you helping me and our listeners think about is some more of those philosophical questions about why are we doing what we’re doing? And really evaluating, self-reflecting on that and then for some listening, this may be the path. For others, maybe a version of this, maybe something different. But you know, I think for each of us to focus on our own and certainly find resources and support. But in no way do we have to judge the path that others are taking. So Jason, I appreciate the time that you’ve given here. I appreciate you sharing your story with our listeners. And I wish you the best going forward.

Jason Long: I enjoyed it. Thank you.

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