YFP Media

YFP 356: Love and Money: How to Successfully Navigate your Finances with a Partner

Posted on April 25, 2024April 25, 2024 by YFP Media

Tim Ulbrich, PharmD (YFP Co-Founder & CEO) digs into how to successfully navigate finances with your partner and shares 25 questions you can use to frame conversations around money.

This episode is brought to you by First Horizon.

Episode Summary

On this episode, we’re talking about love and money! Discussing finances with your spouse, partner or significant other can be tricky sometimes. Tim Ulbrich shares 25 financial discussion questions to help you navigate these important conversations along with a free resource you can download to help get you started. From reflecting on your “money classroom” and the way you were raised to understand money to how you feel about debt, savings, and other important goals, Tim guides you through these important conversations. There is no one-size-fits all to managing finances in a relationship – but sharing the same vision and goals with your partner can set you up for success. This episode is brought to you by First Horizon.

About Today’s Guest

Tim Ulbrich is the Co-Founder and CEO of Your Financial Pharmacist. Founded in 2015, YFP is a fee-only financial planning firm and connects with the YFP community of 15,000+ pharmacy professionals via the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast podcast, blog, website resources and speaking engagements. To date, YFP has partnered with 75+ organizations to provide personal finance education.

Tim received his Doctor of Pharmacy degree from Ohio Northern University and completed postgraduate residency training at The Ohio State University. He spent 9 years on faculty at Northeast Ohio Medical University prior to joining Ohio State University College of Pharmacy in 2019 as Clinical Professor and Director of the Master’s in Health-System Pharmacy Administration Program.

Tim is the host of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast which has more than 1 million downloads. Tim is also the co-author of Seven Figure Pharmacist: How to Maximize Your Income, Eliminate Debt and Create Wealth. Tim has presented to over 200 pharmacy associations, colleges, and groups on various personal finance topics including debt management, investing, retirement planning, and financial well-being.

Key Points from the Episode

Navigating finances with a partner, identifying money personalities, and setting goals. [0:00]
Financial planning for pharmacists, merging money personalities in relationships. [1:49]
Money personalities and setting financial goals. [5:50]
Financial goals, budgeting, and spending plan for couples. [10:39]
Financial goals, debt management, housing, transportation, and children’s education. [14:57]
Financial planning with a partner, including goals, investing, and retirement planning. [20:04]
Financial planning and management strategies for couples. [24:32]

Episode Highlights

“I think it’s really important that we spend time to reflect on and identify our money personality and how this does or does not match with our partner. For some of you that have been at this topic for a while, you know how emotional and how behavioral this whole topic of managing money can be. And so it’s important we spend time to reflect on and to get curious about what our money approach is.” – Tim Ulbrich [4:13]

“It’s really helpful that we reflect upon what is the approach that we have surrounding money? How might that have been influenced by the money classroom that we grew up in? The more we can understand that about ourselves, as well as our partner, and how we bring those characteristics into the relationship can be really helpful as we set a plan going forward.” – Tim Ulbrich [8:03]

“Is everything merged when it comes to the finances? Might we have some things separate? Some things merged? Of course, that’s an individual decision for everyone. But ultimately, on some level, we want to have a shared vision, even if some of those items might be separate.” – Tim Ulbrich [8:38]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody Tim Ulbrich and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week we’re talking love and money how to successfully navigate your finances with a significant other spouse or partner. Easier said than done right? During the show, I discuss how to identify with your money personality and how this does or does not match with your partner strategies for setting and achieving goals together 25 financial questions and discussions that every couple should have? Hang with me. I’ll give you a resource and a link to download those questions and advice from the YFP community on what has and has not worked for them in their own journey, navigating this important topic with their partner.

Tim Ulbrich 00:45

Now before we jump into this week’s episode, I have a hard truth for you to hear. Making a six figure income is not a financial plan. Yes, you’ve worked hard to get where you are today. Yes, you’re earning a good income. But have you ever wondered, Am I on track to retire? How do I prioritize and fund all these competing financial goals that I have? How do I plan financially for big upcoming life events and changes such as moving, having a baby, changing jobs, getting married or retiring? And perhaps why am I not as far along financially at this point in my career as I thought I would be? Well, maybe the answer is that your six figure income is not a financial plan. As a pharmacist, you have an incredible tool in your toolbox: that’s your salary. But without a vision and a plan that it good income will only go so far. That’s why we started Your Financial Pharmacist where YFP we support pharmacists at every stage of their careers to take control their finances, reach their financial goals, and build wealth through comprehensive fee only financial planning and tax planning. Our team of certified financial planners works with pharmacists all across the United States and helps our clients set their future selves up for success while living a rich life today. If you’re ready to see how YFP can support you on your financial journey, you can learn more by visiting your financial pharmacist.com/learn again, that’s your financial pharmacist.com/learn. Alright, let’s hear from today’s sponsor First Horizon and then we’ll jump into the show.

Tim Ulbrich 02:16

Does saving 20% for a down payment on a home feel like an uphill battle? It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high student loan debt, meaning that saving 20% for a down payment on a home may take years. For several years now we’ve been partnering First Horizon who offers a professional home loan option AKA a doctor or pharmacist loan that requires a 3% downpayment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers, has no PMI and offers a 30-year fixed rate mortgage on home loans up to $766,550 in most areas. The pharmacists home loan is available in all states except Alaska and Hawaii, and can be used to purchase condos as well. However, rates may be higher and a condo review has to be completed. To check out the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to start the pre-approval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com /home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

Tim Ulbrich 03:20

Hi there, Tim Ulbrich here flying solo this week as we talk about love and money: how to successfully navigate your finances with a partner. Now first things first, this is a heavy topic right? And I do not have all the answers. When it comes to our financial plan for Jess and I we have found the system- keyword system -that works best for us. But we are far from perfect. We’ve made our fair share of mistakes. We haven’t always been on the same page. And it certainly has required compromise and grace on both sides. So this is not a preach and teach episode. That would be very helpful. Rather, the intent is to give you some things to think about and conversation starters, to find the system that works best for you. Because at the end of the day, that’s going to be what matters most.

Now, before we jump into some of the tactical strategies, and some of the questions and conversation starters, I think it’s really important that we spend time to reflect on and identify our money personality and how this does or perhaps does not match with our partner. Right for some of you that have been at this topic for a while, you know how emotional and how behavioral this whole topic of managing money can be. And so it’s important we spend time to reflect on and to get curious about what is our money approach? What is our money, personality? What is our money classroom that we grew up in the household that we grow up in financially? And how does that perhaps shape how we manage our money today and ultimately how we merge two of those money personalities together as we try to work and get on the same page. So some questions to think about here as it relates to the money personality. Do you approach money in the same manner that you were raised? Have you reflected upon the money classroom that you grew up in? And maybe what worked and didn’t work? Was money in your household an open conversation? Was it a closed conversation? Was it stressful? Was it calm? What was the emotional tone surrounding money? Was there transparency around money? Or was it a taboo topic? What were the spending habits, what was said? And what were some of the unsaid lessons that you learned along the way? And how did all of this potentially contribute to the money personality and the habits that you employ today that you ultimately bring into your relationship? Right, good and bad. Probably true for all of us.

If you want some guidance on this, there’s a great resource, we’ll link to it in the show notes. The Money Couple has five different money personalities, they have a book and an assessment if you want to really dig in and go further on this topic. And they in that resource they referenced five money personalities, those five personalities are number one, the Security Seeker. Number two, is the Saver; number three is the Spender; number four is the Risk Taker; and number five is the Flyer. Now, anytime we do these assessments, right, we’re running a risk a little bit in terms of bucketing ourselves into one of these approaches, when often we may have a little bit of more than one of these. And that’s one of the things I like about this tool is they combine two of these, what they call a primary and a secondary to come up with your money profile. So for example, let’s say that you identify as a saver/security seeker. Okay, so just some quick definitions here a saver, pretty much their outlook is that as they share in their own resources, A penny saved is a penny earned. You make things happen by getting the best deal, right, you can often be someone that’s very thrifty. Characteristics of a saver would be someone who’s trustworthy organized with money, they also would have some real challenges potentially, including maybe obsessing over money, having a hard time letting go. And they would rarely spend compulsively, they really liked the plan. And they really liked that good deal. Now a Security Seeker, which here was the secondary personality, they have an outlook that better safe than sorry, right protection and security is the definition here. So these individuals make things happen by planning for the future. And they’re often very well prepared. So some defining characteristics here would be they can investigate things thoroughly do a lot of research challenges, of course, could be, you know, some of the potential and again, letting, letting go. And maybe finding that balance that we often talk about in the show of living the rich life along the way. Certainly also trustworthy with their finances, they want to make decisions by confirming that there’s a plan, right? So they’re not, they’re not gonna be very spontaneous, and they’re spending money like to have multiple options. This is just one example, one assessment. But it’s really helpful, again, that we get curious that we reflect upon what is the approach that we have surrounding money, how might that have been influenced by the money classroom that we grew up in, and the more we can understand that about ourselves, as well as our partner, and how we bring those characteristics into the relationship can be really helpful, as we then set a plan going forward.

Tim Ulbrich 08:27

So once we really think about some of those money, personalities, you know, I think it’s then that we want to really figure out how can we set and achieve goals together? Now we’re gonna get into a little bit about, you know, perhaps is it everything is merged when it comes to the finances? Might we have something separate? Some things merged, completely separate. Of course, that’s an individual decision for everyone. But ultimately, on some level, we want to have a shared vision, even if some of those items might be separate. And I think it’s so important, I’ve talked about this on the show before, that we start with the vision, and not necessarily start with the budget or the spending plan, right? Not start in the weeds, but really start on what is the dream that we have financially? What does success look like for us collectively as a unit? And can we agree upon that vision, that direction, that dream that we have for us financially, right? That’s a much, I say, easy but easier conversation than getting into the individual decisions. This is also the place where we really want to get all of those goals, all of those ideas out of our heads onto paper, we want to see what overlaps what doesn’t overlap. Obviously, there’s gonna be some compromise here along the way, but once we get them to be shifting from unsaid to said, right, so Jess can share her goals, I can share my goals, we can see what what is similar, what’s different, and then we can begin to start to compromise and prioritize those. That’s really where we can start to then begin to implement and execute on that vision. So for us, I’ve shared this before on the show, typically what we do is want once a year we’re looking at, hey, what does success look like for us over the next 12 months? Right? Keeping the bigger vision in mind? What does success look like for the next 12 months? And what are those things that we want to focus on spending? You know, so we’re looking at, hey, are we on track with savings goals for the future? And retirement planning? If not, what are some things that we want to surplus in the following year? What do some of the experiences look like for us in terms of vacations, home projects, things like that? What are the giving goals for the year right? These are the things that we need to begin to, again, get out of our heads onto paper so we can start to set a plan. Now, I think it’s really helpful here, especially if you have two individuals that are on completely different pages that this is really really where a third party can be very helpful. I know for Jess and I, our financial planner at YFP has been really helpful in getting us to have conversations not only together when we’re in the room with a financial planner, but also in between those meetings to make sure that this is an open conversation as we can possibly have. Now, I have some questions here that I think are good conversation starters. Right? I started the episode by saying this is not about telling you what you should do. This is really about helping to start conversations, stimulate some discussion so that you can figure out what the system is that works best for you. So I’ve organized these questions into different areas. And I have 25 of them, I’m just going to mention them briefly. And we have a one page resource that you can download for free that will have a list of these questions. You can go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/25 – two five again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/25.

Tim Ulbrich 11:43

Okay, so in the spirit of starting conversations, here are 25 financial discussions that I think are worth having. And let’s start with the first bucket, which is setting goals, budgeting and just the overall approach to managing the finances. So the first question is, have we discussed and agreed upon our short term, midterm and long term financial goals? Now you can define these differently, I think of short term goals is within the next 12 months, next year, mid-term, one to three years in long-term greater than three years. Obviously, you can determine the timeline that makes the most sense of you. And then furthermore, how can we best set, review and update these on a regular basis? So there’s that initial exercise, and then how often are we going to be reviewing these so that we can make sure we are able to implement those in the plan? Sounds simple, right. But everything starts with the vision and getting to some level of an agreement on the shared goals.

Second question here is have we developed and agreed upon monthly spending plan, budget, whatever you want to call it, that accounts for all of the income and all the expenses? And does this spending plan, budget, again, whatever you want to call it, does it represent and include the goals that we just worked through in the first question? Now, again, for some individuals, and I’ll share some data here in a little bit from our community, for some individuals, everything is merged. Some they have some separate, some is completely separate. So obviously, you have to work through this as it relates to how you treat the merging or lack thereof of the accounts. But do we have representation within our spending plan, approach, whatever that looks like lots of different ways to do that. So that the goals, there’s an actual plan to implement and achieve those goals.

Question number three, does one of us take more of the lead than the other when it comes to managing the finances? And if so, are both of us aware of our overall situation? How do we ultimately make sure that both parties are aware of the progress if one person is taking the lead. I have seen that that often, not always, often is the case where one person may take the lead. So if that’s the case, what’s the plan? What’s the strategy? What’s the structure so that both parties are aware of what’s going on? And the overall progress? Right, the overall situation?

Number four, I’ve alluded to this a couple times is the desire to merge all of our finances; to keep some separate, some merged; or to have everything completely separate. Now for Jess and I, we’ve made the decision that everything’s merged, I’m not here to tell you that you should do that, or that’s the only way. But really having that conversation of what’s best for us, is it all merge is a little bit of both, or is it everything that would be completely separate. Number five, do we need to check with one another before spending any money? If so, is it a certain amount? What’s the criteria for this? How do we determine this. Some, you know, couples might have a large purchase or something that would trigger hey, we need to have a discussion about this. So what are those criteria, if any exist when it comes to making some of those bigger purchases? So that’s the first group of questions around setting goals. budgeting and your overall approach.

Tim Ulbrich 15:01

The second group of questions is around debt management. Debt Management. So question number six here on our list of 25. is how much debt have we acquired thus far? Right? Do we know? Do we know the numbers? Is everyone aware of the debt that’s that’s accrued? And what will be our plan to pay off the debt? Do we both understand each other’s debt position and the feelings perhaps just as important, the feelings towards the debt? Right, for some people, I’ve talked about this on the show before for some people, there can be a significant aversion to debt? Others maybe that’s not the case. So if you have two individuals where you have opposite feelings on debt, that’s an important conversation to have. Are we treating this as our debt? Or is this separate debt? Right? When you think about things like credit card debt, student loans, car payments, or other things that especially may have been existing coming into the relationship. Number seven, again, on debt management, how comfortable are we with having debt? And I would encourage you to break this down further to different types of debt, right, including student loans, credit card, mortgages, car loans, etc. So not just a blanket debt good or bad, but how do we feel about different types of debt? And then final question on debt? Number eight on our list is do we view each other’s debt as our debt? Or is this your debt? Right? And how does that potentially approach how we pay that off? All right, third group of questions is around housing and transportation. So question nine on our list is how do we feel about renting property versus owning a home hot topic right now, given where the housing market is at, given where home prices are and where interest rates are at? And if we already own a home, are we okay with the current situation? Or is there potentially a desire to move? Right? Again, we want to get a lot of these questions and maybe things that we’re thinking about making sure we have an opportunity to discuss with one another. So if we don’t own a home already, how do we feel about renting versus owning a home? What’s that timeline? Like if we already own a home? Are we thinking we’re set? Or is there a potential or desire to move? Next question around housing transportation, number 10 on our list, if currently renting, and there’s a goal to own a home, do we agree on the location, on the purchase price, and the amount of downpayment that would be needed, right? That’s gonna have a big impact on the budget. And again, if things are separate, and not merge, how are we both contributing to that downpayment? And getting ready for that purchase? Number 11, as relates to transportation? Do we view our cars as a necessity? Is it a luxury where we lease? Are we gonna buy our cars? If we buy our cars? Are we paying them outright? Are we going to finance part of it? How do we view the transportation part of the plan? And again, let me pause here and reinforce what I was saying towards the beginning. I don’t really think there’s a right or wrong answer here. The goal is to really get you thinking about, hey, how do we feel individually? How do we feel collectively as a unit? You know, as I think about this question here on transportation, it reminds me of Ramit Sethi’s book, I Will Teach You To Be Rich. I’ve referenced that many times on the show before and one of the things he talks about he starts the book is this concept called Money Dials. And what he’s referring to there is identifying those things that derive the most significance and meaning for you as a part of the financial plan and have a plan to spend money, what he’s referring to is the dial, dial that up. And alternately for the things that you maybe don’t care as much about financially, dial that down, right. For some people, you know, transportation cars may be something that’s has significant value, and for other people, not so much.

Tim Ulbrich 18:35

Alright, next group of questions relates to kids, children. So number 12 on our list is how do we feel about one of the biggest expenses we often see in the financial plan – daycare? What’s our budget for this? And how does it fit in with other financial goals? Number 13, how do we feel about public versus private K through 12? education? You know, again, this might certainly link back to the home purchase and the location and and where you’re looking for home based on schools. And if it is private education is the goal, how will we plan for this and prioritize it with other financial goals? Number 14, again, in this area of children, how do we feel about paying for our kids college? This is a hot topic, right? You often see maybe people that are split on this. And how do we plan for this? Are we hoping to pay for it in its entirety? A partial amount? Are we banking on you know, scholarships or other funding other family to help taking on debt? What’s the plan for that? And then last question, as it relates to children, what ideas and strategies do we want to employ to teach our kids about managing money? Right? We started this episode talking about the money classroom we grew up in. And for those that have children in the home that you’re raising now, they’re obviously growing up in their own money classroom in your house. And so what strategies are we employing and how are we approaching teaching kids about money? What’s our philosophy about behind that, right. So this this gets to things like, you know, our philosophy around alarm allowances, and giving, and how we’re going to teach some of those lessons to our kids. And at what ages are they ready for those lessons?

All right, next group relates to saving, investing, and retirement planning. So question number 16, when it comes to the emergency fund, are we comfortable with three months? Right, your general rule of thumb recommendation three to six months of essential expenses? Are we comfortable with that? Three months, six months, something in between, something different? Have we discussed that? Again, are we on the same page with that?

Number 17, what financial goals are we trying to achieve by saving or investing? What does success look like, right? So we often talk about the importance of saving and investing for the future. But for what? What are we trying to achieve? And what does success look like? Number 18? What does retirement look like for both of us? Are there similarities? Are there differences? What’s the desired age? Right? What are the activities? What what are we working on? Which is the next question: what activities are we engaged in during retirement? What are we doing together? What are we doing separately? Right, beginning to envision so that we’re approaching that retirement phase with intentionality.

Next question, how much should we be saving and investing for retirement each month? And how do we balance and prioritizes with other goals? And then final question here on saving investing in retirement planning? What is our risk tolerance for investing? And again, if we have two different risk profiles? How are we approaching that as we’re saving, investing and planning for the future?

Final set of questions as a group, I’m just calling miscellaneous questions. Got four left on the list here. Number 22. How does each of us feel about giving? How much? How often?Where? How will we plan for this? And what priority? Are there certain things that we have to have achieved before we do this or not? Number 23: Do we plan to do the financial plan ourselves? Or are we looking to hire a professional to assist? Are we on the same page about this? If the goal is to hire someone, what are the criteria we’re going to use that will help us find the right fit? Who’s taking the lead in this conversation? What does that look like for us as a unit? When it comes to assisting family financially, whether that be caring for elderly parents, maybe that’s supporting a family member need or some other situation, how do we feel about this? Right? How do we feel about this financially, and the impact that it can have in other parts of our financial plan? And then finally, question number 25? How will we strike that balance between saving for the future and living a rich life today? What does it mean to us to be living that rich life today? And how are we prioritizing that in the financial plan?

So again, that’s 25 conversation starters, there’s a lot there, right, the different categories we talked about, you can download that list again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/25. I hope you’ll reference that maybe print it off, and have some of those discussions with your partner. Next, I want to give some input not just from me, but from the YFP community on what has and has not worked for them in their own journey of navigate navigating this topic with their partner.

So I recently posted a poll on LinkedIn asking the following question, that for those that are working with a significant other spouse or partner on their finances, which of the following best describes your situation: is everything merged or all the finances merged? Are some things merged something separate? Or is nothing merged? In essence, everything is separate. And what we saw from that data was just shy of 50%- 49% responded that all of the finances were merged. 42% responded that some were merged and some are separate. And 10% responded that nothing was merged, and that everything was separate in their accounts. Now, some of the comments and advice that I thought were helpful to pass on and again, some some different perspectives here. Kelly had this to say lots of systems can work. But it all starts with transparency. It’s not uncommon for one person in the household to do the bill pay, and thus see more of the transactions. Periodic money dates can help facilitate conversation. A favorite topic in our house is identifying mutual goals and where we want to prioritize funding for the year, sometimes their goals are not aligned. And that is important conversation, as well. So Kelly, comes transparency. Having that open conversation having those periodic money does it dates and sometimes those goals aren’t aligned, and important conversation to get on the same page. Tracy said that we have a joint household account, where we contribute an equal amount each month to cover our household expenses, and some minor rainy day savings. We tossed around percentage based on income but landed on equal flat dollar amount. We also have separate personal spending accounts for ourselves, so we don’t feel like we have to justify personal spending to one another. We’ve divvied up who contributes and covers what to each savings bucket and who does the insurance via their paycheck all this to say after typing this that our marriage is basically a business. I thought that was some humor to add in there as well. Cassidy said my husband, I follow the 50-30-20 budgeting process right now. We have a joint account where 50% of our income goes towards household expenses and joint purchases, a joint high yield savings where we both contribute 20% of our paycheck for larger goals. And then 30% goes in our fun money personal checking accounts. So far it’s working great ensures that we’re both contributing an equitable portion of our income.

Final one that came in is someone shared just got married in summer of 2023. My husband wanted to keep our finances separate, except for one joint checking to pay utilities out of. This came from seeing his parents get divorced about six years ago and had always fought about money. He did not want that to be us. So going into the marriage, we plan to keep our own savings. I that’s a great example before I go further with this one of how that upbringing, right, how that money classroom can impact how we approach our money today. She goes on to say that we’re now nine months married, and we’re getting ready to buy a house with the need to pay the mortgage, we’re rethinking finances and will likely be combining more of our money. He prefers a separate checking account for each item, such as utilities and mortgage, we still plan to keep the money we had pre-marriage as our own stock savings, mutual funds, etc. We have a joint credit card for joint expenses and groceries that’s worked well. We still have separate credit cards. Being upfront about money has been so important to us. We’ve had several long conversations about money, pre-marriage, and within the last few months to get us set up for success. So it sounds like here, there’s even some transition, as they’re getting ready to purchase a home. They’ve been married now just shy of a year, maybe perhaps more that’s moving into the joint accounts, but a system that they’re still working through.

So I appreciate all of those that contributed providing different ideas. So again, the spirit of this right is to identify that system that works best for you. Right works best for you and your partner, really accounting where we started with reflecting on and getting curious about what is the money mindset? What’s the money personality approach that I have? And do I have a good understanding of that for me, as well as my partner? Really coming up then with those shared goals? That vision we talked about? What does success look like in the short, mid and long term, and then beginning to work through those individual areas of the financial plan.

Tim Ulbrich 27:19

Well, certainly last but not least, as many of you know, we have a team of Certified Financial Planners at Your Financial Pharmacist that we offer fee-only financial planning and tax planning, we work with pharmacists all across the country. And certainly we’d love to have the opportunity to work with you. And we’d love to have an opportunity to talk more to see whether or not the services are a good fit. You can learn more about our fee-only financial planning services again at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/learn. Again, that’s your financial pharmacist.com/learn. I think, as I mentioned a couple times that third party, right, that third party can be so helpful to facilitate some of these conversations and to begin to execute on the different aspects of the financial plan. Well, thanks so much for listening, and have a great rest of your week.

Tim Ulbrich 28:05

Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again, thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists and the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% downpayment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers and has no PMI on a 30 year fixed rate mortgage. To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, and to get started with the pre approval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

Tim Ulbrich 28:51

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information to the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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	$500* Loans ≥50K = $500	Variable: 4.99%+ (with autopay)* Fixed: 4.96%+ (with autopay)** Read rates and terms at SplashFinancial.com	Splash is a marketplace with loans available from an exclusive network of credit unions and banks as well as U-Fi, Laurenl Road, and PenFed	Check Rate

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YFP 355: 5 Financial Moves to Make After Graduation

Posted on April 18, 2024April 17, 2024 by YFP Media

Sponsored by YFP+, YFP Co-Founder Tim Ulbrich shares five key elements for building a strong financial foundation after graduation.

Episode Summary

On this episode sponsored by YFP+, host Tim Ulbrich outlines five key elements for building a strong financial foundation. Whether you are a pharmacy student looking ahead, a soon to be 2024 graduate, or a resident, fellow, or new practitioner trying to find solid financial footing, Tim shares what it means to build a strong financial foundation, no matter where you are in your career.

With the average pharmacist facing staggering student loan debt and often lacking financial knowledge, Tim shares practical strategies to help pharmacists to begin to navigate debt management, investing, insurance coverage and retirement planning.

About Today’s Guest

Key Points from the Episode

Financial moves after graduation, including debt management and investing. [0:00]
Financial planning for pharmacists, including student loan debt and income management. [3:52]
Financial planning for pharmacists, including assessing current financial state and setting long-term goals. [8:28]
Proactive budgeting to prioritize financial goals. [13:50]
Investing early and often for financial success. [18:24]
Investing for pharmacists, including retirement accounts and tax-advantaged savings. [23:39]

Episode Highlights

“Without a plan, pharmacists certainly may be income rich, but net-worth poor.” – Tim Ulbrich [6:48]

“I saw firsthand how good decisions early in the career could certainly accelerate the financial plan, as I now look back nearly 18 years as well as how some of those bad decisions had a lingering effect in our financial plan. That’s part of the reason why I’m so passionate about teaching this topic to pharmacists at all stages of their career.” – Tim Ulbrich [8:08]

“At the end of the day, money is a tool. And we’ve really got to strike this balance between making sure that we’re taking care of our future selves, making sure that we’re putting this foundation in place today, and also living a rich life along the way.” – Tim Ulbrich [12:21]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast for each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. On today’s episode, I’ll be covering five financial moves to make after graduation. Whether you’re a student looking ahead, a soon to be 2024, grad, or resident fellow or new practitioner trying to find solid financial footing, this episode is for you. We’ll be talking all about what it means to build a strong financial foundation, including practical strategies that you can implement in your own plan.

Before we jump into today’s show, I have two exciting announcements. First up, make sure to sign up for our next YFP webinar on Thursday, April 25 at 8:30pm Eastern, where pharmacist and real estate agent, Nate Hedrick, The Real Estate RPh, co-host of the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast, will be presenting on your checklist for buying a home in 2024. During this free webinar, Nate will walk you through how to know if you’re ready to buy a home. We’ll discuss the current state of the housing market and give valuable insights into the home buying process. You learn more and register at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/webinar again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/webinar.

Second announcement last year we launched a nonprofit YFP Gives that aims to empower a community pharmacist to give to alleviate the indebtedness of the PharmD students and graduates, to help enhance the financial literacy within our profession, and to support other pharmacist-led philanthropic organizations and efforts. We’re thrilled to announce that our first round of the YFP Gives scholarships is now live! We’ll be giving out three $1,000 scholarships and applications are due on April, 30 2024. For those eligible for the scholarship include PharmD students and new practitioners within five years of graduation. You can learn more and apply at yfpgives.org/cholarship. Again, yfpgives.org/scholarship.

Alright, let’s hear more about our new online community YFP Plus, and then we’ll jump into today’s episode.

Do you ever feel like you’re trying to figure out this money stuff all on your own and aren’t sure where to turn? Maybe you’re overwhelmed with determining how to tackle your student loan repayment. Or perhaps you’re living paycheck to paycheck despite making a six figure income. Maybe you have a negative net worth and aren’t sure how to climb out of debt or make progress on your financial goals. Trust me, I’ve been there. When I finished my residency, I was starting at $200,000 of student loan debt and confused about how to best navigate the transition to new practitioner. I had a great income, but was living paycheck to paycheck and felt trapped. The good news is that you don’t have to continue feeling that way. At Your Financial Pharmacist, we want pharmacists to have the education, resources, and support they need to get a plan in place so they can stop feeling overwhelmed and they can use their six-figure income in the best way possible. That’s why we created YFP Plus an online membership community that empowers pharmacists to gain the knowledge and skills necessary to take control of their financial well being. Inside YFP Plus you have access to exclusive on demand courses. Like the prescription for student loan success, you have access to the right capital financial planning tool so you can track your debt assets and net worth to view your financial progress. You’ll have access to exclusive live events, monthly themes and challenges, a space to ask questions to YFP financial planning and tax professionals, and a community of like minded pharmacists on a similar financial journey as you. If you’re ready to get started inside YFP Plus to take control of your finances, visit yourfinancialpharmacists.com/membership. And if you sign up today, you’ll get a 30 day free trial. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/membership.

Hi there, Tim Ulbrich here welcome to this week’s episode of the YFP podcast. Excited to be talking about this very important financial transition, whether it’s going from student to new practitioner or resident or fellow to new practitioner, critical five year window, where we need to really be thinking about how we can best optimize the financial plan and get on some solid financial footing. So in the next several weeks, we’re about 12,000 pharmacy students that are going to be awarded the doctor of pharmacy degree joining them of course in the workforce will be those completing postgraduate training, whether that be residents, fellows, graduate students, and these graduates on average are gonna make about $120-$130,000 a year of course, depending on where they live in the area of employment they choose. And if we assume that they work a 40-year period with an average raise cost of living about one to 3% they’re going to earn approximately six to $9 million throughout their careers. Let me say that again: about six to $9 million of gross income throughout their careers.

Now if we assumed that about 30% of that income would be eaten up by federal income tax, FICA tax, which is Medicare and Social Security, state income tax, health insurance premiums, and a small contribution to an employer sponsored retirement plan, that leaves about four to $6 million of take home pay. So again, we start with about six to $9 million of gross income, we’re left with about four to $6 million of take home pay. Now I know that’s imperfect math, right? There’s a lot of assumptions that are in there, but just Just stay with me for a moment. We can debate how far a six figure income does or doesn’t go. But let’s agree that a pharmacist income on average, is about $50,000 above the average household income in the United States.

So if we look at the average household income in the United States, it’s about $75,000 per year, it was the average pharmacist’s income according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, that’s about $130,000 per year, right. So by all intensive purposes, pharmacists make a good income. And if it’s managed wisely, it should be more than enough. So what’s the problem? Well, I’ve talked with hundreds of pharmacists who make a great income but feel like they aren’t progressing financially. They feel stuck. And yes, student loan debt is a big contributor, but it’s certainly not the sole culprit. And I know that because we recently had three-plus years worth of a pause on federal loan payments starting back at the beginning of the pandemic, and those feelings of making a high income, but not progressing financially didn’t go away during that time period. The main reason I see pharmacists experiencing financial stress is the omission of having an intentional plan in place that includes clear goals, and a system that prioritize and funds those goals on a monthly basis. It’s proactive, intentional planning. Without a plan, pharmacists certainly may be income rich, but net-worth poor.

That’s really what today’s episode is all about. It’s about having an intentional plan, and building a strong financial foundation early in one’s career. Now, I know the importance of this because I lived it.

So as many of you know, I graduated from pharmacy school in 2008. I did a year residency, in 2009. Came out of residency entered an academic position. And I remember vividly having that feeling of, wait a minute, I make a good income, but I don’t feel like I’m progressing financially. And the main reason for my journey for our journey as a family is that early on, we were navigating through a sizable amount of student loan debt, a little over $200,000 of student loan debt. And we would eventually get that paid off in the fall of 2015. That was a big milestone for our journey, certainly one that I’m excited about and excited and teaching others about as well.

However, we made that journey more difficult than it needed to be. I didn’t understand terms like Public Service Loan Forgiveness, there wasn’t great information out there. We paid more interest than we had to in the journey. We perhaps, weren’t looking at how other parts of the financial plan fit together while we are also pursuing that debt repayment. And because of that, I saw firsthand how good decisions early in the career could certainly accelerate the financial plan, as I now look back nearly 18 years as well as how some of those bad decisions had a lingering effect in our financial plan. That’s part of the reason why I’m so passionate about teaching this topic to pharmacists at all stages of their career. Here, we’re of course talking about those that are making that transition. Now let’s talk about what I mean by having a strong financial foundation.

So through my own experience, and in teaching 1000s of other pharmacists on this topic, I’ve come to appreciate really five key elements that are critical to building a strong financial foundation. Now let’s be clear, this is not five things that once we check the list, this is the finish line, right? Think of this as literally the first couple blocks that we’re putting in place on the foundation of our financial plan so that we can grow and thrive in the long term and do so with confidence. So let’s talk through what these five areas are.

Number one is completing a financial vitals check. So I believe the starting point is to complete an honest self assessment of where you are today with your personal finances as a pharmacist, right. no need for judgment, no need for shame. Where are we today? Because before we can implement a plan, right, we have to have a good idea of our progress made thus far and what are some of those opportunities that we could potentially improve upon.

So here are just a handful of questions to really help you consider areas of the financial plan that might require your attention. Number one, do I have an emergency fund in place, approximately three to six months worth of essential expenses? Number two, do I have any revolving high interest rate credit card debt, right? I’m not talking about the credit card charges that you pay off each month but that revolving debt that’s accruing. Perhaps 20-25% interest. Number three, do I have an optimize student loan repayment strategy? Critical as we look at many new practitioners and the average debt load that folks are carrying, this is often a key piece of the financial puzzle that we have to put in place, and then build around it. Do I have sufficient own occupation, long-term disability insurance that covers about 60% of my income in the event that I’m unable to work as a pharmacist? A few more questions. Do I have sufficient term life insurance to care for loved ones who depend on my income? If that’s applicable. Do I have adequate professional liability insurance? And do I know my retirement number? Have I thought about, certainly far away, but what is that number that we’re shooting for in the future? Am I on track? If not, how much should I be saving each month to ultimately achieve that goal? We have a lot of information, and resources in each one of these areas available at yourfinancialpharmacist.com.

We certainly have talked through many of these topics at length on the podcasts and the blog, so make sure to check out those resources. Furthermore, if you if you want to go through some of this in more detail yourself, we have a really neat tool available called the YFP Financial Fitness Test. We’ll link to that in the show notes. It’s a really fun interactive quiz that will take you through essentially conducting a vital check in and help identify some areas that you perhaps can improve upon, and that you might want to implement as you look at setting goals for the future. So that’s step number one, completing a vitals check

Number two. Step number two is setting the vision setting the vision. So after we reflect on the current state, right, the current situation, the Financial Vitals Check. It’s time to really establish a vision for the future. Now, this is the area where I think it’s really helpful that we let ourselves dream a little bit right, we just perhaps bogged ourselves down and kind of looking at the current state and the reality, maybe that didn’t bring the greatest feelings of joy. And so this is our opportunity to really let ourselves dream a little bit. Spending time reflecting on questions like what does it mean to be living your rich life? What brings you the most joy? As it relates to the financial plan? Are there experiences such as traveling, giving spending time with family and friends or something else? Right, at the end of the day, money is a tool. And we’ve really got to strike this balance between making sure that we’re taking care of our future selves, making sure that we’re putting this foundation in place today, and also living a rich life along the way.

One more final question to reflect upon, if you were to find yourself in a position where you were financially independent, the find that you are no longer required to work. How would you be spending your time perhaps for some of you? The answer is, hey, exactly like I am is great. Right? This is meant to help us identify what are those things that derive and give us the greatest significance, and meaning in our lives. And for every person, this certainly can look different. So that’s number two. Step number two, letting ourselves dream setting the vision, before we start to chart the path forward. Alright, step number three, is to develop the spending plan to develop the budget to develop the system that’s going to help us bring this vision to reality. Right. So in step number one, we identified what are some of the opportunities, what are some of areas that we might want to focus on. Step number two is really about the vision of where we want to go.

Step number three, is now about making that come to life. Now, while one spending plan method, budgeting method, whatever you want to call, it will never be right for everyone, I really believe that the zero-based budget is a great place to start, especially for those early in their career, those that are looking to get back on track. Reason being is that with a zero-based budget, you give every dollar you earn a job before the month begins. This is a proactive planning process. Now, I’m not suggesting this as a method that you stay with forever. This certainly can feel onerous at times. But as we’re looking at defining how we’re spending our income, making sure that we’re allocating income towards our goals, and that we have a good track on what that income is and how it’s being spent. This system is really going to help us shine a light on that. So the goal is again, we’re doing this proactively is to spend your paycheck essentially down on paper to zero, and to ensure that your financial goals can be funded rather than hoping you have money leftover at the end of the month.

Okay, so for example, let’s say that after step one, which again, step number one was completing the vitals check, and step number two is really setting that vision. Let’s say you identify three goals that you want to focus on over the next year, just as one example. Let’s say goal number one is to save $500 per month for an emergency fund, and up until it’s fully funded at $25,000. Let’s say that you want to save $300 per month in a Roth IRA to supplement your retirement savings. And finally, is the third goal. Let’s say that you want to save $300 a month and a travel account to fund one trip per year. Okay, so in that vision setting, you determine that travel was a was an item that was really important. So in this case, with these three goals, right, we have some money set aside in earmark for the emergency fund some for retirement savings in a Roth IRA, some in a travel account, when you go to work the budget through the budgeting process, you want to have those three areas represented just like any other expense, so that you prioritize these before the month begins.

Again, we’re working proactively really important, rather than hoping we’ve got something leftover at the end of the month. So just like we account for a mortgage, or rent payment, or utility payment, or a car payment, right, we want to think about our goals in the same sense, and making sure that we’re building our plan accordingly to prioritize and fund those goals. In my experience, and in talking with others, so much of the stress, so much of the feelings of overwhelmed and confused around the financial plan comes from having all of these competing priorities swirling in our minds, without necessarily a plan for how we’re actually going to achieve them. Right. And so what we need to do, and what we’re trying to do here in step number three is get those ideas out of our head onto paper. So we can list them down, we can prioritize them, and we can start to put a plan in place to actually achieve those goals and to see the progress.

Now, sometimes we realize that, hey, in this season, or in this moment, we’re not necessarily going to get to all of those goals. That’s certainly normal. But at least we have an expectation of what’s happening. And we’ve been intentional with proactively planning how we’re going to work through those different goals. Now, if you’re ready to try this out yourself, we’ve got a free budgeting template you can download, we’ll take you through this process that I’m referring to here. You can download that at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budget, we’ll link to that in the show notes as well. Again, your financialpharmacist.com/budget. Alright, that’s step number three, developing the spending plan.

Step number four, is automating your plan. Now I’ve talked about this several times on the podcast, and I’ve referenced that this has really been one of the most transformational things that Jess and I, over the last 15-16 years since I graduated, have really evolved into that has had a significant impact on our own plan. So once we do the work in steps one through three, right. Once we’re able to complete that vitals check to identify what are some of those gaps, what their progress once we’re able to set the vision once we implement the spending plan. Now it’s time that we make sure we execute, right we actually achieve these goals. And that’s really what automation is all about. I

n his book I Will Teach You To Be Rich , Ramit Sethi says that automating your money will be the single most profitable system that you ever built. And I agree automation is so apparent, so effective, so easy to implement, yet vastly under utilized. It involves essentially scheduling the transfer of funds to the predefined goals, right? We just talked about that in the previous steps and doing so confidently knowing that we’ve already accounted for these in the budget, right, because we were proactively planning during that process. Sure, it takes a bit of time to set up. But once it’s set up, it provides a long term return on your time benefit. And perhaps equally, if not more important peace of mind knowing that you’ve thought about prioritize and have a plan working for you to fund your goals. Right. I just mentioned a couple moments ago that so much of the feelings of stress and confusion, overwhelmed come from that uncertainty come from the unknown. So this step is all about bringing it into the known and executing on the plan that we set.

Tim Ulbrich 18:54

So in terms of operationalizing this, one example certainly not the only way, my wife Jess and I, we have a high yield savings account. We use Ally Online Bank for all of our accounts. And inside of that high yield savings account, we essentially have several different buckets. And those buckets are named according to the goals that we’re working on. Right. So one bucket, for example, is an emergency fund. Another bucket might be for a vacation that we have earmarked, you know this summer or next year, one bucket is for the next car purchase one bucket might be for something related to the boys’ education or to the activities that they’re involved in. So all of that rolls up into one high yield savings account. So it’s liquid, it’s accessible, we can get it we can move it to our checking account if we need it. However, the key there is it’s earmarked and defined for the goals that we’re trying to achieve. Now. Just like I said, a little bit of a go, you know, this may not be a forever system that you have to develop. We have found it to be something that’s beneficial ongoing because it’s a visual reminder. It’s the visual aspect of hey, we set those goals, here are the actual buckets, right named for the goal that we worked on. And it allows Jess and I, I’d have some really good conversations. And of course, transparency into the system that we’re working on. This system it took us about 15 minutes to get set up. And again, you could just as easily achieve it through perhaps your own bank that you already have, or through tracking these in a simple spreadsheet. So, as I mentioned, the buckets are simply a visual representation, it really is just sitting in one high yield savings accounts. And it’s then earmarked to these different buckets. So that’s step number four is automating the plan.

Step number five, again, as we’re on this journey, towards building a strong financial foundation, is investing early and often. Investing early and often. Now, Albert Einstein is credited with saying whether he said it or not, compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it earns it, he who doesn’t, pays it. Right, regardless of whether he actually said it’s really good advice, the time value of money is real. And the earlier you save, the less aggressive you’re going to have to be. Now easier said than done, right? Considering many competing priorities that new practitioners are facing. And I remember well, in my journey after graduating 2008, not only was it the student loans that were staring us in the face, right, it was a potential home purchase, it was the emergency fund, it was building up some additional reserves, and of course wanting to enjoy some things as well during that transition. So there’s a lot of things that are coming at you in this season of life. And shortly thereafter, we would start our family and certainly new expenses that would be there as well.

Now let’s take a look at an example of how powerful early investing can be. Okay, early investing. So if we assume and you can run your own numbers using a number of calculators, we have several on the YFP site as well. But if we assume a pharmacist is making, let’s say, $126,000 per year, if we assume that their incomes gonna go up on average, about 2% per year could be a cost of living adjustment could be a performance adjustment, a combination of both, we’re gonna assume that they’re going to put away 15% of their income. And we’ll assume that there’s an average annual rate of return on that investment of 6%. Now, we know the markets don’t work like that in terms of a clean 6% every year. But for the sake of the calculation, we’ll go with that we’ll assume no match from the employer, and that they have a planned retirement age of 60. Okay, so pretty normal situation. So I’m gonna make an average pharmacists salary that’s putting away about 15% of the year and they want to retire at the age of 60. Now, what we see is that if they start at the age of 25, saving 15% of their income with these assumptions, when they get to the age of 60, the math tells us they’re gonna have about $2.6 million. Now, is that enough is a whole another question, right, we’ve talked about that. On the show before we’ve done an episode on how much is enough, we’ll link to that in the show notes as well. So 25, if they start, we’ve got $2.6 million at the age of 60, a coordinator these assumptions now if we wait to the age of 30, right, because of student loans, because life’s expensive, there’s a lot of things going on that 2.6 turns in $1.8 million. An $800,000 difference already. If we wait to 35, we’re down to $1.2 million. If we wait to 40, we’re down to $800,000. Right. So that’s the power of time value of money. That’s what Albert Einstein was talking about with compound interest in really the value of investing as early as we can, knowing that the earlier we invest, perhaps the less aggressive we’ll have to be the later we invest, the more that we’re going to have to do to catch up.

So naturally, then the question is, well, where do I save? Right? And that depends, of course, there’s lots of different options. Everyone’s investing journey is going to look a little bit different. We have to really assess what’s the risk tolerance, what’s the risk capacity, what are the goals, but many pharmacists are going to be focused early on, especially in their career on tax advantage, retirement accounts, tax advantaged savings accounts. So these would be employer sponsored accounts like a 401k or a 403B offered through your employer. Of course, as the name suggests, there’s both Roth and traditional versions of those anytime you hear traditional thing pre tax, anytime you hear Roth and post taxt. There would also be opportunities to save and something like an IRA stands for individual. So these are not through your employer. Again, there’s a Traditional and Roth version of those. Lower contribution limit in 2024 $7,000 versus in the employer sponsored accounts $23,000. And then the other one I typically think of in this bucket would be an HSA or health savings accounts, which again, we’ve talked about on the show at length before we’ll link to those episodes in the show notes as well. So those are the five foundation and steps and I would encourage you with each one of those to learn a little bit more. Right and as I think about and zoom out here for a moment we think about being on this financial journey throughout your career. Right. So important. Remember, here we’re talking about laying the early bricks of the foundation. Again, this is not the finish line where we start to check these boxes off, but rather, it’s that strong foundation upon which we can then build and hopefully build wealth throughout our career and live confidently knowing that we’ve done some of the hard work early on. So just a quick recap, step number one, we talked about completing that vitals, check the self assessment. Step number two, we talked about setting that vision step number three, developing the spending plan. Step number four, automating that plan, right, that was all about the execution. And then step number five is investing early and often.

So let me wrap up by sharing some advice that I got from the YFP community. I recently reached out to the YFP community to say hey, what are some of the things what are some of the things that you think would be helpful as you reflect back on your journey, going from student to new practitioner student to resident to fellow to a new practitioner that you wish you would have either learned or you wish you would have followed that advice and let me just share you a handful of those response.

One person in the life he can be said it’s worth it to learn how to budget early even on a resident salary you can save.

Another person said there’s one financial hack I wish someone had whispered in my ear my own graduation, house hacking with a high value short term, or midterm rental model. We’ve talked about house hacking on the show before referring there to essentially living in a unit can be a single unit duplex, triplex quad and then renting out a portion of a single family house or if you have multiple units renting out other units.

Another person in the YFP community said I wish I would have learned about the different student loan payment options and how to lower my taxes as a W2 employee.

Another person share this advice don’t put off paying your loans if you’re not going down to forgiveness pathway, tackle them head on, and get them done with. Financial life only gets crazier down the road with the addition of a spouse and kids. Looking back, I wish I would have lived as a student resident lifestyle for two years or more and paid extra to knock out those loans early. And then finally, someone else said if you do income based repayment for your student loans, don’t do forbearance during residency, your payments will be low, and you’ll be finished a year earlier.

So just a few pieces of advice from those in the YFP community that I’ve made that transition. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for listening on a regular basis. Again, we have several of these topics we talked about before we’ll link those into the show notes. And I hope you have a great rest of your week. Take care.

[DISCLAIMER]As we conclude this week’s podcast an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guaranteed of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the orphanage pharmacists podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 354: From PharmD to Debt Free to FIRE with Derek Schwartz, PharmD

Posted on April 11, 2024April 11, 2024 by YFP Media

Derek Schwartz, PharmD, returns to talk about his debt free journey and his path toward FIRE: Financial Independence, Retire Early.

Episode Summary

On this episode, we check back in with Derek Schwartz, PharmD, on his debt free to FIRE journey. Derek was an early guest on the podcast back in 2017 when he was working toward becoming debt free by ambitiously paying off $180,000 in student loan debt.

Today, Derek returns to share a life update after successfully eliminating his student loan debt – from getting married to owning a home to becoming a father of two – Derek explains how he continues to save and view spending and how his journey toward an early retirement evolves as he pursues FIRE. Derek shares encouraging advice for new grads and anyone looking to pay down debt and what it can mean when you are truly financially free.

About Today’s Guest

Derek Schwartz, PharmD, RPh is a 2014 graduate of Ohio Northern University Raabe College of Pharmacy who currently works with the Kroger Company in the Cincinnati, OH area. After graduating in 2014 with over $180,000 in debt, he paid it off in March 2018. Derek and his wife, Jessica, married in October 2020, and have two children: Julia, age 2, and Calvin, 8 months old. The family of four have a happy and busy life in Cincinnati, Ohio.

Key Points from the Episode

Financial independence and retiring early with a guest from 2017. [0:00]
Debt repayment and financial independence with a young family. [2:04]
Budgeting and financial goals with a focus on breathing room and flexibility. [8:46]
Financial Independence and Retire Early (FIRE) journey with Derek Schwartz. [13:13]
Financial independence, debt management, and retirement planning. [17:20]
Retirement planning and debt management. [20:49]
FIRE (Financial Independence Retire Early) journey and determining the FI number. [27:44]
Paying off student loans and saving for the future. [31:49]
Investment advice and updates from a guest. [37:49]

Episode Highlights

“So my debt repayment that it finished was March 30 of 2018. So just in a couple of days, it’s been six years, which is just crazy. Because it’s been so long, it was such a big part of my life. And it’s so far in the distant past, I hardly think about it anymore. And that was always the goal for paying off that debt because it sets up everything else so nicely.” -Derek Schwartz [3:07]

“When you have that much debt, it stops you from saving, it stops you from investing, it stops you from using your income to benefit future savings, having fun, just doing anything.” -Derek Schwartz [5:40]

“Having that much debt and trying to do other things, is like trying to run a marathon without stretching. You’re not gonna get far, you’re not going, you’re gonna get hurt, you’re gonna have to restart, and then you get to go back to square one.” – Derek Schwartz [5:58]

“And once you are completely out of debt, it’s like shutting a book and just tossing out the window. It’s done. You don’t have to go back.” -Derek Schwartz [6:20]

“And that was the motivation for such a rigid budget is I knew exactly when those loans would be paid off. And now it’s completely changed. Because when you’re talking about no debt, what are you saving for? What’s your goal? You can be so much more flexible, when there’s not some restraint of I’m budgeting to get over this, instead of I’m budgeting to get to this.” Derek Schwartz [11:06]

“But it’s just always been a passion for both of us because we have so many more interests that aren’t tied to our jobs. We both love our jobs, we love our work. But, we love other things, too.” -Derek Schwartz [18:28]

“So we’re planning for those to just not be there. And so that’s kind of a, a different way to look at it. Because most people will assume that Social Security will be there, they’ll have some some kind of health insurance. We’re looking at it as, hey, if we retire at 50, on our own, can we do it?” -Derek Schwartz [22:50]

“And that’s, that’s such the nice thing about being in the FIRE mindset of, first of all, being in the FIRE mindset, you’re out of debt. And then secondly, how can we use factors around us to benefit us. And that’s something you can’t do when you have when you have a lot of debt, and you don’t have the the FIRE mindset if you’ve already been saving.” -Derek Schwartz [26:45]

“So, and we couldn’t do that without being out of debt. I keep going back to getting out of debt. But that’s just so important because it just allows you to be on that platform to just do so many different things with what you want to do with your money.” – Derek Schwartz [34:22]

“Paying off debt is not fun. It is not glamorous, it is not full of constant rewards. You’re not doing a lot of things; you’re just watching a number go down. And that’s all it’s doing. But once you get out and pass through that, your options just expand so much.” – Derek Schwartz [36:18]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I welcome back Derek Schwartz, a guest from episode 14 way back in 2017 to share his journey from PharmD to debt free to pursuing financial independence/retire early. We discuss why he and his family are on the fire path, how his financial decisions, post-graduation helped put them on a path towards building wealth, the biggest challenges that they’re facing in pursuit of fire, and how he striking the balance between living a rich life today and saving for the future.

Now, before we jump into the show, I have a question for you. Have you ever wondered how to evaluate the benefits package and offer you receive once you’ve landed the job? If so, our upcoming webinar supported by APHA is for you. On Wednesday, April 17, at 8:30pm. Eastern my partner in crime YFP, Co-Founder and Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker is hosting a free webinar titled: Money Moves: How to Evaluate Benefits Packages and Job Offers. During this webinar, Tim will dig into the valuable connection between career and finance and the ins and outs of benefit packages and offers. He’ll teach you how to navigate components of employer benefits, including insurance, FSA, HSAs, employer sponsored retirement accounts, as well as help you understand components of a job offer and how to evaluate one. Plus, Tim is going to do a live walkthrough and evaluation of real pharmacist job offers from you, the YFP community. So send us your pharmacist job offer current or past to [email protected] with the subject line: job offer. Don’t worry, we’ll keep these anonymous. And if you attend live, you’ll have the chance to win a $50 Amazon gift card or YFP bundle which includes a YFP t-shirt and our four books published at YFP. To save your seat and to register visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/offer. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/offer.

Alright, let’s jump in my interview with Derek Schwartz.

Tim Ulbrich 02:02

Derek, welcome back to the show.

Derek Schwartz 02:04

Great to see you again.

Tim Ulbrich 02:06

So excited to have you back. This has been a while in the making. For our community to know we had Derek on way back when, nearly seven years ago at this point, Episode 14, September 2017. We talked about your journey – graduated from Ohio Northern University in 2014. Go Polar Bears!

Tim Ulbrich 02:23

You were paying off $180,000 of debt in just about four years. That was 2018 when you guys finished that debt repayment journey. We’ll link to that episode in the show notes so folks can go back. And we’re going to talk a little bit more about that. But really focus on your journey now and where you’re at present day and how you and your family are on this path towards financial independence. So Derek, since it’s been such a while, 2017 what what’s changed since since we last spoke?

Derek Schwartz 02:23

Go Polar Bears!

Derek Schwartz 02:51

Man, what hasn’t changed? So when we recorded the podcast, and I begrudgingly listened to it. So I think I join everyone that they don’t like to hear themselves talk. So I, I struggled through that I had not paid off my debt when I recorded that. So my debt repayment that it finished was March 30 of 2018. So just in a couple of days, it’s been six years, which is just crazy. Because it’s it’s been so long, it was such a big part of my life. And it’s so far in the distant past, I hardly think about it anymore. And that was always the goal for paying off that debt because it sets up everything else so nicely. So you know, it’s a typical story, you know, you, you meet someone, you get engaged, and my wife and I got engaged in January of 2020. And I was like, you know, this is gonna be a great year. Nothing bad’s gonna happen in 2020. It’s gonna be smooth sailing from here, as everyone knows, wasn’t the case. But it was an opportunity for us to buy our future home, we moved into a good part of town where we wanted to raise kids, and then we started the family. So we have two kids. I have a two year old daughter and an almost an eight month old son. So things have been great so far.

Tim Ulbrich 04:13

That’s a lot in a short period of time, as we often see, with new practitioners coming out, you know, you’ve been out now a decade coming up here, right this spring, but you know, you graduate, start your first job, get married, you’ve got a couple of kids, pay off your loans. I mean, just a lot that happens and one of the things I was sharing with you before we hit record, which I think is a great example here, Derek and the work that you and your family have done is you know the decisions we make in that first five to seven years is the window I often talk about this transition right from student to new practitioner, really is so critical to setting the foundation upon which we can build and we’re going to talk about how now you guys are on this path towards financial independence, which I presume is probably not possible or possible to the degree that it is. If you didn’t work hard to put some of those rocks in place some of the foundational pieces in place early on in your journey. And so, you know, again, we’ll link back to that episode so people can hear the details of that debt free journey, but just remind us of the motivation, the why behind a pretty aggressive debt repayment $180,000, about four years. Everyone’s on their own journey, everyone feels different about their debt. But for you guys, obviously, it was in a decision to be intentional about paying it off in a short period of time, which again, has led to the place that you’re in today, why why was that such an important piece of the plan for you guys to get out of that debt as quickly as possible?

Derek Schwartz 05:40

I think it was, because there was no other option. When you have that much debt, it stops you from saving, it stops you from investing, it stops you from using your income to benefit future savings, having fun, just doing anything. Having that much debt and trying to do other things, is like trying to run a marathon without stretching. You’re not gonna get far, you’re not going, you’re gonna get hurt, you’re gonna have to restart, and then you get to go back to square one. So the goal of getting out of debt was just to get past that. So that options, were actually on the table that were available. And once you are completely out of debt, it’s like shutting a book and just tossing out the window. It’s done. You don’t have to go back.

Tim Ulbrich 06:27

Yeah, and I think, you know, I often shared Derek that when I think back to my journey, Jess, and I have paid off a couple $100,000 of debt and making every mistake you can make along the way. You know, it was really when our kid most of that journey was before we had kids and the end of that journey. Our kids were very young. But I now think about that monthly payment, right that we were making, which was pretty aggressive at the time. And basically, as I now see the expenses with kids rising, right, which is natural, you know, I’ve got some older, older boys that are starting to eat us out of the house. But you know, for other people, it’s daycare, right? It’s other costs, it’s saving for kids college. But the point being that, you know, that payment that I think of that we’re making towards their student loans, you can pretty much just put that money over to expenses, right, that are associated now with having young children that weren’t there before. And for us, I know, personally, it would be a burden currently if we were still trying to work through those payments, while other expenses were rising. Does that resonate as you guys are, you know, obviously, growing a young family, you know, having that margin through having that debt paid off has allowed you to really have have some more flexibility as naturally expenses will rise as you have young children.

Derek Schwartz 07:37

Yeah, for sure. And we we started with our daughter in daycare. And we quickly learned that wasn’t for us. We were getting a lot of sick calls, we had to go in, bring her home, my wife and I both worked full time. And we were seemed to be a some of us, one of us is going to have to work part time to have to get around daycare. So we’ve hired a nanny, which was the best decision that we made. And, you know, we couldn’t afford that with student loan payments, we couldn’t afford that with a credit card payment or a car loan, or anything that, you know, requires a monthly payment like that. So it’s the setup to getting flexible with the budget has to start with being in a position where you can be flexible. And without any, like debt that’s just holding you down. That flexibility is just gone. So it limits your options. And we don’t want to have to, you know, talk about every single transaction that we do, where we buy something. Like hey, can we afford to have a date night? We don’t have to have that discussion because we don’t have, you know, all these loans and like this massive budget that we have to worry about. We still budget, but that’s in the budget, so you don’t have to think about it.

Tim Ulbrich 08:52

Yeah, yeah, what I hear there, Derek, is breathing room, right? You’ve used the word options, flexibility a couple of times already. But when you have breathing room, we underestimate the mental space and clarity that can come from that. And, you know, I think you can probably appreciate this working on this topic together with your spouse, like a lack of breathing room, a lack of margin is a recipe for stress and arguments. And you know, not not being on the same page financially. Right. So creating that breathing room, which we know is easier said than done. We look at today’s graduates are coming out with $150- $200,000 of debt. You know, you and I were fortunate to not necessarily be buying a home where home prices are in 2024 and interest rates. There are headwinds, right that today’s graduates are facing that are real. And unfortunately, those eat into that breathing room, they eat into that margin, but we know when we can create that breathing room and space. We have options. We have flexibility, you know, we’re able to really progress and move forward with the financial plan and play offense instead of constantly being on our heels playing defense. I do want to poke for a moment on the budget because I think that’s something that, you know, when I talk about budgeting, you know, to a group of pharmacists, you know everyone again is on their own journey, but I often see the look of like, like, do I have to right? Do I have to track? Do I have to do these things? And I tried to reframe the budget as being the really the mechanism by which we’re achieving our financial goals. Now, how detailed do you want to get is up to you. Whatever works for you, and everyone, again, is going to be different. But if we reframe it, that the budget, the spending plan, the system, whatever you want to call it, is simply the execution plan for achieving our goals, I think we can get behind that a little bit more. And you made a comment that, hey, we’re, we’re budgeting, but we’re maybe not tracking things at the granular level of hey, can we go on a date night tonight or not? And is the budget $20 or $30, or whatever that number is. So tell us about what your budgeting system looks like right now. And maybe how that’s evolved over time.

Derek Schwartz 10:46

Yeah, the budget before when I had debt was so rigid, because I knew exactly how much I was making. I knew exactly how much was going to, at the time was living in an apartment. So rent utilities. And it was a very locked in number. And that’s what it was going to be every month. And that was the number that would, that would knock down that debt. And that was the motivation for such a rigid budget is I knew exactly when those loans would be paid off. And now it’s completely changed. Because when you’re talking about no debt, what are you saving for? What’s your goal? You can be so much more flexible, when there’s not some restraint of I’m budgeting to get over this, instead of I’m budgeting to get to this. And when you’re budgeting to just have that independence that you want in your life financially, you can be so flexible with it. And my wife and I, before we had kids, we were saving a ton of money, I want to say at least 40 to 50% of our income, we were saving that. Because we were in a position where we’re like, hey, we want to have kids. So we know the timeline that we want to be on, we wanted to have a couple of kids we wanted to family, we knew it was going to be in a couple years. So we’re like, you know what, let’s just save for the next couple years, and then put ourselves in a position. So we just saved super aggressively. And then when the kids came and expenses come up, and you you dial that budget back, it doesn’t hurt as much because you’re still saving. And when you’re so aggressive to start, it’s so much easier to for it to be malleable, just mold it what you needed to be. And then we then look forward to having goals of hey, we can we can get that back to where we want it once kids are in school. And once you have less expenses, because they’re both we had two under two for quite a long time and not only was financially stressful, just in general stressful. And it we we see where it can get back to and that’s the motivation now.

Tim Ulbrich 12:46

Yeah, and I think Derek, one things you share that resonates with me is because of your early aggressive savings, we’ll talk about more of that here in a little bit with your FIRE journey. You know, that gives you some permission to say, Hey, this is a season we’re in. This is a season of expenses, you know, may not be forever, it’s gonna look different in a few years. You mentioned that already. But let’s say the opposite was true. Let’s say you guys didn’t save it all in the first five, seven, now 10 years, a decade coming up on graduation. That’s another layer of stress, right? Because, hey, we’ve now got rising expenses. And we feel like we need to play catch up. And because you saved early in the journey, there probably isn’t that nagging feeling of hey, we’ve got to catch up. Right. So again, breathing room, and margin. So our theme for today is PharmD to Debt Free to FIRE. So again, graduated 2014 Debt free journey – paid off those student loans in 2018. Now you’re really on this path and evolution towards building wealth and towards financial independence. We’ve talked about FIRE on the podcast many times, we’ve got a lot of resources on their website, if that term is new to those listening: Financial Independence, Retire Early. So we’re going to spend a bulk of our interview talking through that with Derek what what does that mean to him? Where is he at? And the journey? Why are they on the fire journey? And what has that looked like practically for them and their family? So, Derek, let me start there. It seems that the the term FIRE while there’s formulas, calculations, all these things about how we can determine what our FI number is, I recognize that can mean something different to everyone. So what does FIRE mean to you and to your family?

Derek Schwartz 14:18

For us, it just means that we retire on our own terms. We both had the goal of retiring when we were 50. That’s the goal. And because I love my wife, I will not say how old she is on a podcast. I am 34. That means I want to retire in 16 years. By the time I’m 50, we are done working and we want to pursue other interests. The nice thing about being on this FIRE journey and being aggressive with saving when we did is with two kids, we looked at each other we’re like, hey, this might be 55 now. that’s still really early. Hey, we might push it back to like, you know, 57-58. Maybe 60, we work part time that’s still early. The the financial independence side of the FIRE to us just means, hey, we’re on our own terms. If we want to pursue other interests, we can do that if we want to, you know, scale back how much we’re working, we can do that. If we want to explore other interests that can make us money, we can do that and just leave our professions that we have behind. But once we get to that point, we’ll know that we’re covered financially. And then you know, the sky, the sky’s the limit from there where we can, you know, instead of diversifying your your money, where it’s going, diversify your interests and see what you know, what calls for you.

Tim Ulbrich 15:40

Yeah, what I really hear there, Derek is options and opportunities that you could pursue, and it might be one of many different pathways. Maybe you decide to work part time, maybe you don’t, maybe decide to travel a bunch, you know, maybe there’s grandkids at that point in the future, and you want to have the flexibility of time, like, you know, maybe it’s something that you’re not even thinking about at this point, whether it’s volunteering, and you know, there’s a ton of different things that could be, but having the option to, right, that that is what really resonates with me when people talk about financial independence, regardless of what the number is, or what the age is, is, you know, maybe it’s retire early, maybe it’s not. But there’s options to pursue A, B, C, D E. I talked with somebody recently on the FIRE journey, I guess, we’ve had on the podcast before Corey Jenks. And he gave an example of, you know, I think he referenced like walking into a sporting goods store or another type of business. And he was like, Oh, that’s interesting. Like, maybe someday I just would want to try to work at one of these and kind of see what it’s like. And when you’re on an FI pathway, like, those are the kinds of things that you can, quote, take a risk on or roll the dice and say, oh, this would be interesting to do for, you know, six or 12 months, whatever that might be. So I love what you’re sharing there. One of the barriers I often see, Derek is two individuals getting on the same page, not just in general with their finance. But here’s we’re talking about with FIRE. And you know, often you might have one person who’s gung ho, let’s go. And maybe they even started the FIRE journey before they met their significant other, spouse or partner. So my question for you is, have you guys always been on the same page? Has this been an evolution, it sounds like you’re very much in the shared vision of 50, or 55-57. Whatever that age is. Tell us more about how you’ve been able to work together and get on the same page.

Derek Schwartz 17:25

Yeah, I’m, I am so blessed to have my wife. Because on our first date, we talked about just being financially independent, that was just such a goal for both of us. Probably weirded out a lot of people were sitting by at the restaurant we were at. But that was just a goal for both of us. She was debt free when I met her, she owned her own home, she wanted to get into real estate, she was already on that path I had, you know, my path is so much different from hers, because I had all this debt I had to pay off that she still had some, but she had paid it off years before I met her. So we were on the same journey of getting to financial independence. But we started completely different areas, and we just happen to meet at the time where, you know, I was ready to start saving at the level that we wanted to. So at the time we met, I was talking about, you know, buying my first home, eventually, we as we dated, I kind of weaseled my way into her house, decided to just live there and pay her rent and then we got married from there. But it’s just always been a passion for both of us because we have so many more interests that aren’t tied to our jobs. We both love our jobs, we love our work. But, we love other things, too. And part of that is with our kids, we want them to be also financially independent. And that’s you can’t do you can’t preach that you’re not doing it. And that’s just that’s really that’s a hard place to be in of you know, teaching discipline with your kids and teaching, you know, financial independence and you know, being your own person and not you just you know, having so much debt that you can’t, you know, do the goals that you want to do.

Tim Ulbrich 19:10

Yeah, and I appreciate the perspective you have on that Derek and I know you’ve got young ones you mentioned the the ages a little while ago. One of the things I’m appreciate with my boys, my oldest now going to be 13 in the summer, as they are observing and picking up on things way younger, you know, then you would think. Sure, they might not be able to articulate it. But there is definitely a culture in the house around money. They become very aware of how individuals are talking about money. Is it you know, fearful? Is it stressful? Is it an open conversation? Is it a closed conversation? And we’re gonna be talking more about that on the podcast here in the future about kids and money. It’s a really, really important topic. But you know, I think just a note of encouragement to parents out there like hey, we’re not going to get it right all the time. I haven’t gotten it right. Jess and I haven’t gotten it right all the time. But, you know, really being cognizant and aware of the dialogue, the culture, the tenor, the tone of what’s happening financially in the household. I think it’s so important. Derek, you mentioned 50. And I heard that evolve 53, 55, 57. You know, when I hear that age, often an objection that will come up is, well, how are we actually going to be able to fund that, right? You know, we’re not yet at Social Security age, you know, maybe we’ve got dollars that are tied up predominantly in traditional retirement accounts, 401k, 403B’s, IRAs can’t access those to 59 and a half without penalty. You know, so then becomes this question of, well, how do we actually produce a paycheck when we’re at an early retirement age, and of course, all the fears that may come of hey, we’re gonna run out of money too early, and where we need health insurance benefits. Talk to us about how you guys are thinking about that, while still a ways away. I’m sure it’s something that’s been on your mind.

Derek Schwartz 20:49

Yeah, that’s, that’s something that we, that one of the first things we talked about as, hey, if we retire at 50, what do we do? So we have different accounts that, you know, you can’t touch certain retirement accounts until a certain age, we also have taxable accounts that we can dip into. We have money that’s set aside just in savings that we can get to at anytime. By that time, we we have a 15 year mortgage, so our house would be paid for. So it’s kind of just like leveling with what do we have to anticipate paying for? What to what accounts can we get into what can’t we get into? What does that mean for hey, if we retire at 50, are we actually retired? Can we do all the things we want? Or do we have to kind of like, play it slow a little bit until we can get into into some more taxable accounts that we’re holding on to? And, you know, it’s flexible. And we’d rather have that conversation to 50, than than 70, or 75. So it’s kind of a non answer, it’s almost a we’ll see when we get to it. And that’s why it’s so nice, just for it to be so flexible, because we don’t know, you know, what that looks like at 50. And then, you know, if, like, we have to say, hey, we’re gonna work till 55 now, that’s not a big deal. And that might not even be a full time at that point. That might just be like, you know, hey, we’re both working part time both our kids are, you know, 18, maybe out of the house and college, maybe they’re doing their own thing, you know, and we can downsize our house, there’s a lot of options that you can have. So, another thing that we look at is, instead of saying, hey, at 50, what do we do? We’d rather do that and say, hey, we’re, we got to 65, Social Security is not there. Hey, we’re not getting the health insurance we thought we’d get because you don’t know what things are going to be. And with all those variables that are so many are out of your control that you don’t know. So we’re planning for those to just not be there. And so that’s kind of a, a different way to look at it. Because most people will assume that Social Security will be there, they’ll have some some kind of health insurance. We’re looking at it as, hey, if we retire at 50, on our own, can we do it? And we think we’re on track to do that. But if we have to push it, we can push it.

Tim Ulbrich 23:12

Yeah. And what I hear there, Derek, is being comfortable with the uncomfortable and the unknowns, but not necessarily just kind of put your hands up and saying, hey, there’s not planning that can be done, right. You mentioned several variables, assumptions that any one of those can change, some of them will change, some of them may be better than you thought, worse than you thought. So there’s planning that needs to be done. And we so often talk about the accumulation phase. Right. But we don’t often talk about the de-cumulation phase. Whether that’s early retirement or not, you’re gonna have several of these buckets of assets, right? You mentioned brokerage accounts, you mentioned traditional accounts, you’ve obviously got your home, that will be an asset, perhaps there’s real estate now or in the future. I mean, you’re gonna have all these different buckets, maybe there’s social security involved. And it’s a matter and function of okay, well, for 55. Where are we drawing from those? And how do we do that in a tax efficient way? And how do we make sure that we’re optimizing which buckets we’re drawing from, and essentially, what we have to do is, you know, our working career, we work and we get a paycheck, right? Well, when we’re not working, or working part time, and we need to fill up the rest of that income bucket, we have to produce our own paycheck in retirement, whether that’s early or not. And I think there’s so many nuances and planning opportunities there that we just don’t talk enough about how do we actually produce that retirement paycheck? You mentioned 15 year mortgage. I want to talk about that for a moment. Because, you know, obviously, you’re, you’re a math guy, you’re on the FI journey. And, you know, there’s this debate that’s always ongoing of 15 versus 30. Year and what’s the opportunity cost and, you know, getting out of debt and versus carrying a low interest rate debt for a longer term. As you’re someone who’s looking at an aggressive savings rate, you know, an argument could be made potentially that hey, anything you’re paying on a 15 year that you could, you know, have paid on a 30 year or lesser amount than you could have invested the difference. You know, obviously there’s an opportunity there to way of paying down the debt versus investing for the for future, the most common question we get, hey, should I be paying down my debt? Should I be investing? How did you think through that process of, hey, let’s make a higher monthly mortgage payment. And therefore, you know that that is money that could have potentially been invested versus maybe you did decide to take out a 30 year, and it’s a lower amount, but you’re able to invest more talk us through that.

Derek Schwartz 25:20

Yeah, that’s an interesting story, because we bought her home in the summer of 2020. And taking, taking some time to look back on that time in the mortgage arena, we got a 3% fixed interest rate. You’re not getting that anytime soon, anywhere else. So we made the decision of hey, like, this is an interest rate that it’s basically non-existent. 3% it’s is absurd, and especially in today’s market. So a 15 year mortgage, that’s not really that much of a difference between a 30 year and then you also you still have something like wiggle room to, you know, take some money on the home, and do that sort of things. And it’s funny, what do we do that now, probably not. It would probably be a 30 year, if we were to move and buy a new home. It would probably be a 30 year mortgage. And it’s just interesting, because when you’re out of debt, you look at different ways to I don’t want to say manipulate what you’re doing with your money, but to just kind of be flexible with it, is that instead of saying, Hey, we have to, you know, think of a different way we’re paying on our home, we might have to think of a different differently. We think of it in a way of, you know, how can we take advantage of the situation that we put ourselves in, we were both out of debt, we bought our home? How can we make this situation benefit us? And that’s, that’s such the nice thing about being in the FIRE mindset of, first of all, being in the FIRE mindset, you’re out of debt. And then secondly, how can we use factors around us to benefit us. And that’s something you can’t do when you have when you have a lot of debt, and you don’t have the the FIRE mindset if you’ve already been saving. And that’s not a realistic expectation for people right now. But if you set yourself up to be in a position where you want to be FIRE, and you want to be really aggressive retiring, that is a situation that anyone can easily be in.

Tim Ulbrich 27:24

Yeah, I appreciate that. And I presented the question as a dichotomous variable of hey, you could have either taken out debt longer invest that, of course, it’s not that simple. And one of the variables that’s unique to you guys, is you did aggressively save early on. So there already was that that base of savings. You know, if someone isn’t in that position, and they’re weighing, you know, should I be taken out a longer term mortgage or shorter term? And where am I investing? The question they have to factor in, among many others is, am I on track? Am I ahead? Am I behind? And, you know, certainly that will, will change the equation, how we look at that, as well. When you guys came up with your FI number, I’m curious to hear more about how you determine what this is and how you evaluate this on an ongoing basis, you know, in the FI community, which you’re more plugged in than I am, but there’s everything from back of napkin, you know, rule 25: take your total annual expenses, including taxes multiplied by 25. That’s based on the 4% rule. We’ve talked about that on the show before. And then there’s, you know, much more nuanced calculators that are out there and available. So tell us more about how you guys have evaluated what your FI number is?

Derek Schwartz 28:28

Yeah, we’re much less we’re not even that nuanced. We just, we pick a number, hey, 50, what do we need to do to get there? And that wasn’t a let’s calculate what we have what we’re saving it, plug it into something. And that’s what the number comes up. We started our FIRe journey being like, it’s going to be 50. What do we need to do to get there? And I think, looking at that way, it simplifies it a lot more, because you look at it from a perspective of, if that’s the goal, all right, um, when we started, that was a couple years ago, so it was like 18 years to 50. What are we doing in the next 18 years to get there? And at that point, we didn’t have kids, and then kids come, and we’re like, alright, 50 might not be possible. We went to push it, but 50 it still could be possible. What can we what can we cut back on a little bit to get there? So I think that’s such a nice thing about FIRE is that, you know, it, it’s so adaptable to what you want to do. You can it can be 55, it can be 60. It can just be an unknown age, where you just you have your, your budget, you look at it, you look at what you’re saving, and you’re like, yeah, we can just do it now. And then just start your, you know, FIRE journey from there. Yeah, an important thing and for those that are new on this FIRE journey, what you’ll quickly realize is you start to run numbers is your annual expenses is, is really the factor that’s going to drive this equation the most both in terms of what you need, right? Because your projected need is based off of what you’re going to have to potentially draw. So if you have two pharmacists, let’s say both making $125,000, one is able to live off of 50% of their income, one’s able to live off of 80% of their income, their FI numbers are going to be very, very different. And thus, their savings rates are going to be very different because of the percentage of their income, right, that’s available and able to say, so easier said than done. You know, we know that pharmacists cost of living, individual situations, but you see this on the regular where you know, someone who’s able to really drive down cost of living expenses. And there’s a balance here that we have to factor in, versus someone that is not able to for whatever reason, those numbers of what that FI number is going to be in the timeline to get there are going to be drastically different for sure. Derek, one of things we talk a lot about on this show is we firmly believe from personal experience and working with hundreds of pharmacists, one-on-one on this topic that a good financial plan, it’s a marathon, it’s not a sprint, we really have to be striking this balance between, yes, we have to be ready for the future. Yes, we have to take care of our future selves. But we also have to be making sure we’re prioritizing living a rich life today. And we tend to think about these on one end of the spectrum or the other. Right, there’s some that we see are very, very aggressive savers. But aren’t necessarily comfortable with spending in any capacity. And then there, of course, is the opposite end of the equation as well. How have you guys been able to, especially with a young family, strike this balance between, hey, we need to continue to push forward with getting our FI number. And whatever that age and goal is, but also like, hey, this is a season in a phase of life, that we also want to make sure that we’re living a rich life, we know that eventually this season will pass as well.

Derek Schwartz 31:49

Yeah, that’s, it’s always something when you have kids, everything changes. And you know, everyone’s gonna tell you that you don’t believe it until you’re in it. And that’s something that, you know, you want to enrich your kids lives with different experiences and do things. And, you know, we’ve talked about, hey, we could take them to Disney World, we can take them on a nice vacation, we could also go to a national park. There’s a different cost difference with those, especially if you can like drive to one. We live in Cincinnati so we’re close to Mammoth Cave systems, Red River Gorge in Kentucky, it’s a really nice places that you know, the kids will enjoy. And that’s a big cost savings as opposed to like a more expensive vacation like Disney. Nothing against Disney, my daughter loves frozen, she will eventually go. But that’s something that right now with, we have more expenses, because we have two very young kids, we have a nanny that we’re paying for. Once they’re older, and they’re in school, we don’t have the the nanny costs, some of that costs goes towards maybe a new car fund, maybe that goes to vacation funds. So we can do like a yearly vacation somewhere nice. That goes back into retirements, and it just kind of like just kind of morphs, it’s kind of like a primordial soup of just the funds are there. They’re being used for this, they’re being used for that. What can we do now to make sure that, hey, when the time is right, we can afford that vacation, we can afford to take them on, like really, you know, fun, like family trips to like Disney. And right now that looks like you know, more affordable options, we take them to the Cincinnati kids museum, which is a great place for kids, we take them the national parks. And those are so much more affordable and fit within our current FIRE budget without, you know, just sitting at home and not doing anything. So it’s, it’s in terms of what you do with family enrichment, it depends on what you want to do, how much you’re paying now for expenses that won’t be there. And for us, we have expenses of a nanny that won’t be there for too long. It’s going to be here for a couple of years. But then after that, it’s like okay, we’re gonna go back to saving more aggressively. How about we also save aggressively for a nice trip, How about we save aggressively for, you know, programs that we want our kids in? So, and we couldn’t do that without being out of debt. I keep going back to getting out of debt. But that’s just so important because it just allows you to be on that platform to just do so many different things with what you want to do with your money.

Tim Ulbrich 34:37

Great stuff. My last question for you, Derek, is you know, for the for the students or new grads that might be listening. They’re saying, Derek, this is great. But dot dot, dot, I’ve got $175,000 of debt. I’m trying to purchase a house in this housing environment where costs are crazy. Interest rates are crazy. And I feel like there’s not a whole lot of margin and sure, maybe I’d like to pursue a FIRE journey. But at a minimum, I’d like to just build a good foundation and make sure that I’ve got a solid plan. What advice would you have for new grads coming out today in 2024? As you look back now 10 years ago, just a different space that we’re in. What are your thoughts for those new grads coming out today?

Derek Schwartz 35:17

Yeah, it’s, you have to realize what goals you want to accomplish first. Some people want to own a home. I’m not going to tell people to not buy a house. Some people want to start a family and never going to tell people to not have a family. When you have a lot of debt, and unfortunately, with a lot of pharmacists, pharmacy students coming out, the grads and some people do residencies, where they’re not making their like full salary yet. It’s hard to say to someone, hey, you know, you got to really get on that debt and get that down. From what I saw, when I started my journey of paying off my debt, I was working with a lot of older pharmacists, that when I was in my like, early 20s, and a lot of them were like, hey, if I was, if I could go back 30 years be in your shoes, I would do exactly what you’re doing. And that’s the affirmation that I needed that I was on the right path, because it wasn’t fun. Paying off debt is not fun. It is it is not glamorous, it is not full of constant rewards, you’re not doing a lot of things, you’re just watching a number go down. And that’s all it’s doing. But once you get out and pass through that, your options just expanded so much. And there are some people that you know, graduate, they already have a family, they already have a house. That requires you know, a sit down with your spouse, your partner, and talking about a budget of hey, you know, how can we get this down? How can we get to where we need to go? Yeah, and the first step that I would encourage is to budget and figure out a number of like, when is the realistic goal we can pay it off? And I think figuring that number out, for some people might be longer than they thought it would. And that’s a really important step is to figure out, look at all of our expenses, maybe you have a mortgage, you have the expense of kids, you’re thinking, hey, you know, we can knock this student loan down in a couple of years. It’s actually like 10. Do you want to wait 10 years to pay that off? Or what can you do now to like, chip that number down to five? What can you do to chip it down to six? And then those you know, four or five years you save of not being you know, chained down with your student loans, it can be really reassuring, kind of a kick to get into gear, to get some stuff done.

Tim Ulbrich 37:49

Great stuff there. This has been a joy to reconnect and hear your story. Hear where you’re at seven years later. Hear how the foundation you built early. You’re seeing the fruit of that now and I think there’s only more fruit to come. So thank you so much for taking time to come on the show and to give us an update where you’re at.

Derek Schwartz 38:06

Great to be back.

Tim Ulbrich 38:07

[DISCLAIMER] As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 353: Avoiding the Trap of House Poor: Evaluating Cost of Home Ownership

Posted on April 4, 2024April 2, 2024 by YFP Media

Nate Hedrick, The Real Estate RPH, discusses how to avoid the trap of becoming house poor, the ever-lively debate of renting vs buying a home, the costs of buying a home, and how to determine how much house you can afford. This episode is sponsored by Real Estate RPH.

Episode Summary

In this episode sponsored by Real Estate RPh, host Tim Ulbrich chats with pharmacist and real-estate agent Nate Hedrick, CEO and founder of Real Estate RPh, all about the costs of home buying. Beyond the initial down payment and monthly mortgage payment, there are a lot of expenses with home ownership. Some expenses can be expected and planned for, others can catch you by surprise, as Nate and Tim have both learned.

Hear valuable insights and resources for pharmacists looking to purchase a home, covering topics such as down payment assistance options, planning for those unexpected expenses, and creative ways to help achieve the goal of home ownership.

About Today’s Guest

Nate Hedrick is full-time pharmacist by day, husband and father by evening and weekend, and real estate agent, investor, and blogger by late night and early morning. He has a passion for staying uncomfortable and is always on the lookout for a new challenge or a project. He found real estate investing in 2016 after his $300,000+ student loan debt lead him to read Rich Dad Poor Dad. This book opened his mind to the possibilities of financial freedom and he has been obsessed ever since. After earning his real estate license in 2017, Nate founded Real Estate RPH as a source for real estate education designed with pharmacists in mind. Since then, he has helped dozens of pharmacists around the country realize their dream of owning a home or starting their investing journey. Nate resides in Cleveland, Ohio with his wife, Kristen, his two daughters Molly and Lucy, and his rescue dog Lexi.

Key Points from the Episode

Home buying costs and webinar sign-up. [0:00]
Real estate market trends and industry news. [2:32]
Financial impacts of home ownership and student loan debt. [5:27]
Home affordability and financial planning. [11:07]
Budgeting and financial planning for homebuyers. [15:11]
Homeownership and financial planning creativity. [19:39]
Homeownership costs beyond mortgage payments. [23:25]
Homeownership costs and surprises. [27:00]
Home buying options and resources. [32:59]

Episode Highlights

“I live this every day, just as another pharmacist also owning a home, right? You have to kind of account for all those costs. And it can feel like you get to the end of the month, and every bucket has been taken up by something. And you’re like, okay, how many, you know, how many pennies do I have left to rub together?” – Nate Hedrick [11:08]

“So I like tools that have that much more broad look, rather than trying to silo things out and saying 10% should go towards your car and 20% toward your house, because I just don’t think they work for everybody.”- Nate Hedrick [16:00]

“Like that’s the biggest thing with homeownership is – it nothing is consistent, every month is going to be different no matter what you do. And building in some of that margin building in that that error is just a great way to de stress that whole process.” – Nate Hedrick [29:18]

“I think what we’re really trying to prevent is, you know, as we talk about the theme here of avoiding the trap of being house poor and really evaluating all these costs that we don’t achieve one goal at the expense of a bunch of others.” – Tim Ulbrich [29:31]

“I think most people assume or think that they’ve got to have 20% down to buy a home. The reality is, there’s a ton of different programs out there and you don’t need anywhere near 20% down.” – Nate Hedrick [33:50]

“But there are a number of awesome programs out there that can help with down payment assistance, that can lower the downpayment that’s required and still have a competitive interest rate”. – Nate Hedrick [34:14]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week our resident homebuying expert Nate Hedrick joins the show to answer the question how much house can I afford? We discuss how to avoid the trap of becoming house poor, the ever lively debate of renting versus buying, and what costs to consider beyond the down payment and monthly payment, which includes principal interest, taxes and insurance. Whether you’re a first time homebuyer or already own your own home. Our hope is this episode will help you evaluate how home ownership fits as one puzzle piece in the rest of the financial plan. Speaking of homebuying, Nate will be joining us for a free webinar coming up on Thursday, April 25, at 8:30pm/Eastern titled, Your Checklist for Buying a Home in 2024. During this webinar, Nate will share what you need to know about purchasing a home in 2024. And we’ll walk you through important steps to take in your home buying journey to make the process easier to navigate and understand. You can sign up for this webinar by visiting yourfinancialpharmacist.com/homebuying2024. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/homebuying2024. All right, let’s hear from today’s sponsor the Real Estate RPh and then we’ll jump into the show.

Tim Ulbrich 01:20

Are you planning to buy a home in the next year or two? With the state of current home prices and mortgage rates the home buying process can feel overwhelming. But what if you can leverage the knowledge and ongoing support of someone who has worked with dozens of other pharmacists through their home buying journey all at no cost to you? I’m talking about Nate Hedrick at the Real Estate RPh. Nate is a pharmacist who has been a partner of YFP for many years now and offers a home buying concierge service that can help you find a high quality agent in your area and support you throughout the entire process. So head on over to RealEstateRPh.com or click on the link in the show notes to schedule your FREE 30 minute jumpstart planning session with Nate.

Tim Ulbrich 02:05

Nate, welcome back to the show.

Nate Hedrick 02:07

Hey, Tim, always good to be here.

Tim Ulbrich 02:08

Well, this is the time of year where things start to really heat up on the home buying the home selling side of things, although you know, we continue to be in this in this unique cycle that is a little bit of an out-of-whack of supply and demand. We’ve got obviously interest rates still where they’re at. So as you go into the spring season, what’s normal, what’s not normal for you this time of year?

Nate Hedrick 02:32

I guess the only normal thing is that it is it is getting busy. My schedule is quite busy right now in the spring with a lot of buyers, a lot of sellers, which is great. I mean, it’s it’s great for our business, but it’s still a bit of a weird time, right, we’ve got interest rates in kind of a weird spot, still have a lot of low inventory out there. So people that are trying to find the right home, it’s more difficult. And then we’ve got things going on with the industry in general that that are just making it a bit of a weird, weird market right now.

Tim Ulbrich 03:03

Absolutely. And before we get too deep into the topic, Nate for any of our listeners that are, you know, in the moment, looking to buy a home, looking to sell a home, wanting to make sure that they get out in front of this, or maybe even those for those that are listening to saying, Hey, this is a three month thing, a six month thing, we you and I both know how that goes. Things can move quickly. You know, we want to make sure they get connected to you and your services, what you offer through the Real Estate RPh concierge service, they can do that by going to yourfinancialpharmacists.com. We’ll talk more about this as we go throughout the episode at the end as well. Click on home buying and from there, you’ll see an option to find an agent get connected with eight and beyond your way for for this big decision. Certainly that that it is we want to make sure that they have the resources available to make a good decision.

Nate Hedrick 03:49

Yeah, it’s funny, we even I got an email just this morning from a client that they met with me in late January, we match them up with an agent within a couple of days. And within two weeks, they were under contract and they just closed. So like I mean, it was just, it’s lightning fast when you’re in that in that space. And even if you’re three months out, it all of a sudden those three months get eaten up. So better to schedule that early and get on the horn with us so we can get you in the right spot. So yeah, definitely check that out.

Tim Ulbrich 04:14

Nate, I’d be remiss if we didn’t ask you big news that came out this week settlement by the National Association of Realtors. Obviously, you as a real estate agent, if our listeners don’t already know that, potentially something that’s going to impact you impact the industry at large. There has been news flying around all about this headlines everywhere. And I think it’s one of those things. It’s hard to really assess like what actually is going on? What’s the impact right now? And what’s the potential future impact? And I know you and David just covered this on the Real Estate Investing Podcast, episode 118. We’ll link to that episode in the show notes so folks can dig deeper on this topic, but give it give us the Cliff Notes of what’s going on and where we’re at.

Nate Hedrick 04:55

Yeah, I think it’s definitely worthwhile to try to get away from the media noise for a second on this because what I’m seeing out there is all the headlines are speculating what this is going to do to the industry rather than what’s actually occurred. So the very brief version is that several months and even a couple of years ago, there was a lawsuit against the National Association of Realtors, by some parties that are part of a consumer advocacy group. And essentially, what they were alleging was that there was there’s some sort of price fixing going on that basically sellers were told, you had to offer a commission to buyer’s agents. And if you didn’t offer them 3%, or whatever, then like you couldn’t work together, right. And that’s, that’s not really true. And the NAR has basically said, like, we’re not admitting that we did that, because we haven’t been and they’re even in the settlement, they’ve admitted no wrongdoing at all. But essentially, that’s the allegation. And what is what they decided to do is, rather than continue to go through expensive litigation, the NAR has decided to settle and to make some changes, so they’re gonna pay out about $418 million dollars over the next four years to consumers. And then they’re gonna make some big changes in terms of how agents and the MLS can advertise and for, for commissions, so they are no longer able to advertise for buyer agent commissions, and buyers are going to have to work with and this is the big change for buyers out there, buyers are gonna have to work with an agent under a contract, you’re gonna have to have a contract in place with that agent. Gone will be the days of just showing up, writing an offer with whatever agent and then like figuring out the contract stuff later, like that is not going to work anymore. You’re going to have to be established with somebody, if you want to work with an agent, because the way we get paid is going to change basically. So it’s a lot of shake up. We don’t know exactly what’s going to happen yet. But some of those details are starting to come forward here and we’re at the end of March already. And it’s it’s, it’s heating up.

Tim Ulbrich 06:46

So for those that are listening, whether it’s you know, people that are looking right now or thinking about buying the spring or summer, you know, how much of that is going to impact them right now? Are we still in this wait, wait and see pattern of when some of the changes you’re talking about are going to take place?

Nate Hedrick 06:59

Yeah, so a lot of these changes will not go into effect until probably July and even beyond. That’s really the deadline they’ve established for this. I keep in mind again, as you and I sit here and record this, the court has not even accepted the settlement yet, right. The NAR has basically said this is what we’re interested in settling on, the court still has to accept that settlement. So a lot of this is to be determined anyway. But if it all shakes out the way that they’ve proposed, then July is when this will start to make a difference. And again, if it goes, if it goes the in a bad direction, I guess for buyers, I’ll put it that way. What will likely happen is that buyers are just going to have to be a little more savvy about about that early conversation with their agent. Who is paying, how am I paying? Am I paying? Is the seller paying? Like how are we negotiating that? And how does it affect my ability to put in offers because those are all things that are going to change in in some capacity here in the next couple of months.

Tim Ulbrich 07:52

So again, you and David covered this on episode 118 of the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast, deeper dive, we’ll make sure to link that in the show notes. And of course, we’ll keep the community up to date, as we have more information that is rolling out. And you know, we get past some of the short term news and the headlines and actually start to see some of the implementation of some of these things. So today’s theme, Nate is: Avoiding the Trap of House Poor: Evaluating the True Costs of of Home Ownership. And, you know, as you and I were planning for this episode, we were talking about, hey, for those that are looking, this is a good opportunity to make sure that that homebuying, that big rock that is a part of the financial plan, is put in the right context, right, about their goals that we’re trying to achieve, so that we have the room to do those things. But also for those that own, already own. You know, I talked with pharmacists on the regular that, you know, maybe they’re three years in, five years in, 10 years in, whatever it may be, and just over time expenses have increased. Maybe they’re perhaps still paying on student loans or other things, trying to save and invest more for retirement and really feeling like in that home, they’re in the situation where hey, I don’t have a whole lot of margin, I’m feeling house poor because of that. So whether someone is a hey, I’m going to buy or they currently own I think they’re gonna find this episode helpful. Now, I want to get your take on five things that I see on the regular that are financially impacting, you know, especially new graduates, but I think it transcends even beyond that in a much greater way than when I graduated back in 2008, than when you graduated as well. You know, first student loan debt, we’ve talked about that at length on the show. When you look at what graduates are coming out with is in terms of an average and what that means for a monthly payment. You know, that can be standard 10 year repayment on an average debt load, we’re looking at $1800 to $2,000 per month.

Second, of course, housing costs we’re gonna dig deep into that on today’s episode, but, you know, we’ve seen the rise in interest rates and the rise in home prices. We see the impact of that on a monthly payment. You put those two together, right, that’s a big portion of one’s take home pay. You know, we also see the third thing I’m thinking about is just car loans and interest rates on the car loans. Of course inflation is the fourth thing, although we’re starting to see that, you know, tamper down a little bit, and then five, I think one that we don’t talk enough about is childcare costs. And, you know, you know that well, and just the costs that come from, you know, daycare and other costs associated with with children and growing family. And so, you know, at the end of the day, what I want to get your take on is do pharmacists make a good income? And the answer is yes, objectively they do. Right? If you look at the median household income in the US, pharmacists make on average $50,000 or more above that. So objectively speaking, yes. However, when you start to add these things up, right, when you start to look at student loans, and housing costs, and childcare costs, etc, that’s where we often run into the situation of, hey, I make a good income, but I don’t feel like I’m progressing. I don’t feel like I have a whole lot of breathing room, because of some of these big pieces of the puzzle that can have an impact on the financial plan. So thoughts from your seat individually living this, and then certainly working with many pharmacists that are in that position, looking to buy trying to figure out how the house budget fits into the rest of the plan?

Nate Hedrick 11:06

Yeah, I mean, you’re spot on, right? I live this every day, just as another pharmacist also owning a home, right? You have to kind of account for all those costs. And it can feel like you get to the end of the month, and every bucket has been taken up by something. And you’re like, okay, how many, you know, how many pennies do I have left to rub together? Right? It’s just, it can feel like that, right? Especially if you’ve not set yourself up for success. And so I definitely feel that on my own personal finances, but then I also see with clients to where they will I see this all the time where someone will look at a neighborhood or look at an area of the country. And they don’t even ask the question about budget, they just say we need three bedrooms. And where I’m looking at $800,000. And the question is not, can I afford an $800,000 house. It’s just, that’s what we need. And so that’s what we’re gonna buy. And I think that’s really easy to get into, right? Like we love where we live. And that’s not unreasonable. But rarely do we step back and evaluate? Okay, am I okay with paying more to live in this particular location? Or, you know, should I consider a relocation? Or should I consider sizing down and having the kids share a bedroom? Like, all those things are not questions that I often hear. It’s usually, how can I push this? How can I lower that down payment? How can I get away from this expenses now and push those push those things down the road? So I think we’re kind of geared toward that. And having these conversations like you and I are having is how you start to reset that that metric a little bit.

Tim Ulbrich 12:33

Yeah. And I think one thing that I hear there, Nate, which is hard to implement, is just some of the mindset around these decisions. No judgment here whatsoever. Remember, Jess and I talked at length about, you know, we had an expectation coming out that we’re going to buy our first home, at the level which my parents took 20, 25, 30 years to get to, like, you know, and that was where our mindset was, and we made several decisions and some mistakes along the way. And, you know, we probably purchased before we were ready, not sure we really had enough, you know, down in the home, we ended up paying PMI that I didn’t understand how that was structured in a loan. You know, if we had more time, I could give you the list. Right? But but the point being, is I think there is a mindset component here. And you know, sometimes we don’t necessarily like the outcome or the decision when we look at the numbers. But what we’re trying to do, as we talk about this, is really take a step back and say, hey, how does the home purchase fit as one piece of this bigger puzzle, and human behavior, myself included, I think you included as well, as we want to go into the silos and make financial decisions. And especially when talk about home purchase, it’s exciting. It’s emotional, right? There’s a lot of things that are involved. But when we’re talking about a rock that we’re going to put in place that might take 25, 30, 35, 40% of our take home pay, and we’re fixed in that for 30 years, okay, we’ve really got to do due diligence, so that we make sure when we look at other parts of the financial plan, right, saving, investing for the future, pursuing other financial goals, making sure we’ve got breathing room, making sure we have margin to experience and to give and to do other parts of the plan. And so naturally, Nate, the next question is, well, if we’re talking about trying to prevent this, what is that affordability calculation? Like as you think about it, in your own plan, or in working with, you know, other buyers as well? How do you think about what what is that number? You know, is it is it a percentage of take home pay, is it you know, obviously, the what the individual thinks it is versus what the bank thinks it is, can be two very different things. Talk us through that a little bit further.

Nate Hedrick 12:34

I think that you could Google, “how much house can I afford?” and get 72 different answers, right, with all these calculators and metrics and back of the napkin math ideas, and the answer is there is no answer. However, you hit the nail on the head a minute ago and said, avoiding thinking about this decision as a silo, right? I think it’s very easy for people to say, well, I read, you could get 25% of your money toward housing. So we’re just going to do that. And that’s our number. And that’s it. Right? Or 30%, or pick, pick your favorite number, right? Where I think that becomes a problem is that especially like ourselves, right? When I, when I came out of school, a ton of student loan debt, those numbers are not accurate for somebody with a ton of student loan debt, they’re not accurate for a ton of credit card debt, they’re not accurate. If you’ve got, you know, childcare expenses that are going to be cropping up down the road, like all those things can can drastically affect those numbers. And so what I like to do, or what I advise my clients do, is to do something like the 50-30-20, which I can cover in a second, but but something that it doesn’t matter which one it is, as long as you’re taking all of your expenses as a as a bigger piece, right? So what I like about the 50-30-20 rule is that 50% of your money goes toward needs; 30% toward wants and 20% toward net worth building. And what I like, especially about that, is that that big piece of the pie that 50% It’s all your needs, food, car, medical expenses, childcare expenses, like whatever those things are, if you have to have them, then you have to include it in a number. And if all those numbers are already big, like what if your need is student loan payment, right, I have to pay that every single month, I can just avoid that. So it gets factored into that. And it can adjust those housing numbers down rather than just picking a flat 25% or whatever. So I like tools that have that much more broad look, rather than trying to silo things out and saying 10% should go towards your car and 20% toward your house, because I just don’t think they work for everybody. And I think they’re too they’re too broad.

Tim Ulbrich 16:39

Yeah, and I think to your point there, Nate, you know, obviously, everyone’s situation is different. And even, you know, let’s take two, two student loan borrowers, right, both have $200,000 of debt, how they pursue their loan repayment strategy could drastically impact the cash flow they have, right? If one person says, hey, I want to aggressively pay these off in five, seven years, the other person is on a public service loan forgiveness strategy on an income driven repayment plan, where they’re trying to maximize tax free forgiveness- night and day of what are they actually putting out towards the student loans in terms of cash flow? And what what do they have available? You know, other things I think about in terms of where are they at in terms of savings and retirement plans and goals? You know, so is, is pharmacy a second career, and they’re trying to play a little bit of catch up on retirement? Are they thinking early retirement? And maybe you need to save a little bit more aggressive, right? So so many factors that go into this equation, but I think using something like you’re suggesting is a good place, because it helps us figure out, okay, how does this payment fit into that bucket into that 50%? And I’m guessing we often get that number, we’re like, hey, we don’t like it. We don’t like what, you know, the budget is going to support it. And I think that that’s really where the rubber meets the road. But what’s helpful about that is 99 out of 100 times when you’re running your own numbers and trying to figure out what is that housing cost within that 50%. Typically, the banks can approve you for much more than that. Right. And so they’re the the take home point being is that they’re not concerned about your 50-30-20 budget in the same way that the individual would be correct.

Nate Hedrick 18:13

Spot on. Right. I never forget the first time that Kristen and I got approved for a mortgage. And the bank was like, Well, how much house you want to buy? And we’re like, I don’t know, how much can like, what will you give us? And they just do this, this quick math. And it’s like, here you can afford $600,000. And I think our budget at the time was like $250. But like, they don’t care, right, they’re looking at the numbers very differently. They’re just looking at some of the debts that you have, they don’t care if you have $0 leftover at the end of the month, the goal is to make sure that you can make those payments and just make those payments. And so that’s how they’re going to set it. So you have to be your own advocate when it comes to setting that budget and not letting the bank do it for you.

Tim Ulbrich 18:51

Yeah, I always say Nathan, the bank is looking out for themselves have a foreclosure risk? They’re not looking out for are you on track to achieve all your other financial goals? And how does this purchase, that’s an ill intent, that’s just the way the way the system is set up, and then them mitigating the risks that they need to mitigate. So you know, I think the natural follow up then, Nate, and here we are, you know, we probably should have started here that, you know, we’re not having to buy a home in 2024 where homes are at the prices they are and interest rates are where they are so different time right then when we bought a home and it’s worth saying, but the natural counterpoint is, well, I don’t want to rent either, you know, rent has been going up we know the what the data has shown in terms of rent prices going up over time and you know, I feel like I’m I’m just throwing money down the drain. I’m not building equity, right. I’m not building equity if I don’t have a house. So what do you say to that person who really feels like yeah, I hear you. Like it’s too much in terms of the percentage of my take home pay are within that budgeting system you just described, but also feel like it’s not like wrench deep. Right. And I really feel like I’m not necessarily building any equity as we continue to rent.

Nate Hedrick 20:01

I think it’s tough because some of this, at some point comes down to more of an emotional decision, right? Like, it’s just I’m sick of renting. Even if financially like, you still need to stay in that boat for a little bit, while longer just if you do the math, it’s hard to make that decision, right? I mean, I absolutely get that and I was in the same boat that you were like, we probably bought sooner than we should have. We just wanted to buy, we kind of made it work, right. But at the same time, we kept our budget very reasonable, so that we could do that, right, there are ways to mitigate that risk. If that’s the choice you want to make, right? You, you can do it, if you aren’t pushing everything, right, you’ve got to take some compromises somewhere else. So if you’re looking at it, you’re saying, look, we have to be in a home, I don’t want to be renting anymore, well, then you gotta choose an area where the home prices are affordable. I mean, just that’s all there is to it. Right? If you are a new practitioner in downtown San Francisco, and the homes are $1.5 million and above, like, it’s just not as viable as Cleveland, Ohio, where I’m from right or something like that. So you have to be able to take some sort of compromise. If you sit there and say, look, the the overall goal is to be in a home that we own. And you have to find a way to do that. It’s not just in it has to be in this market and has to be six bedrooms, and it has to be 400,000 square feet and all this right, it just you have to be able to adapt, and then do the there are other ways to get creative, too, right? Think about house hacking, for example, buying a property that you can have somebody else renting out with you, then you can mitigate some of those costs. Or looking for down payment assistance programs that are out there, right? There are a ton of grant programs for new graduates that help with down payment assistance, like you can get creative. You just have to go out and do that. Right. I think the old Rich Dad Poor Dad adage, it’s not I can’t afford a house. It’s how can I afford a house? And sometimes you have to get creative how you do that.

Tim Ulbrich 21:50

I think that, you know, it’s the creativity is an important part of that. I think this comes back to mindset you know as well. I think there’s a script that many of us have been told, I know that I don’t remember my parents saying this, it was just something I always believe, which is rent is bad. Homeownership is good. And, you know, as with most things, right, there’s, there’s more than option A and B. And when we look at homeownership, depending on your situation, depending on the part of the country you’re living in, depending on cash you have available for down payment depending on rent rates, right, you know. Ramit Sethi talks a lot about this on his podcast living in I think he’s in New York City, where it’s like, doesn’t make sense, like, you know, continuing to rent in certain markets, like, yeah, it does make sense. And you’ve got to figure out to your point, other parts of the plan, we’re sure maybe he’s not building, you know, equity in the home, which for many people becomes one of the greatest assets they have as a part of their financial plan. But for him, and for others, in higher cost of living areas, you adjust and pivot, you know, and figure out what that looks like.

Nate Hedrick 22:45

It’s funny, you mentioned that I was even just talking to a pharmacist two weeks or three weeks ago, and he rents right now, he wants to buy his first house, but he wants it to be an investment property. So he’s buying in a different location continuing to rent, so you can build equity in a home, just not the home that he’s living in. So he’s still getting into the real estate game, but not doing in a way where he’s making a bad decision just because of where he wants to live. Right. So there’s, there’s a lot of ways to get creative, I wish that we could just do it all up front, but you have to kind of pick and choose when it comes to your financial plan.

Tim Ulbrich 23:16

I like that, Nate. Creativity, I feel like it’s something we’re often lacking in, in the financial plan, right, because we see a path maybe that our parents had or others had, and it’s option A option B. But typically, there’s there’s more than than just those two. Let’s talk about some of the about surprise, but maybe costs it often gets overlooked or underestimated, especially for people that are going through this, you know, the first time you know. I remember vividly, I’ve shared on the show before Jess and I bought our first home and these numbers are laughable now saying them out loud in today’s market, but 2008/2009. So then post residency, we were paying rent $1,100 a month, I remember writing that check every single month for a townhome. We were looking to buy a home and you know, I went did the principal and interest calculations. I don’t think I factored in taxes, insurance. Maybe I did. And I remember seeing it was going to be somewhere right around there actually a little bit less. And like that was the end of my analytics. It was like buy, buy buy. And you know, I think that that’s very common, you know, that you look at, hey, what’s going to be my monthly payment, principal interest. Maybe people are thinking about property taxes and insurance. But that’s really the table stakes. Right? That’s the starting point. But talk to us about maybe those other things, either short term or long term that tend to catch people off guard, where sure, maybe that payment starts at 25% of take home pay but we quickly realize if it’s all in cost, it’s actually a lot lot more.

Nate Hedrick 24:43

I mean, I think you nailed it with the insurance and taxes. I did the exact same thing you did. I ignored them and pretended like they weren’t there and then also the bill showed up I’m like what was I thinking? But you’re right there are a number of other things. I’ll never forget we moved into our our very first his house. And one of the one of the reasons they moved again, this is why home buying is emotional. One of the reasons we moved is we wanted to space for our dog. We had a one year old dog wanted some space for her, wanted some space for ourselves. And so we’re like, oh, let’s get this big yard. Well, the very first thing we did when we moved in was like, shoot, we need a fence. And so we’re like, well, we got a fence in the whole thing. And we have, we’ve over like an acre, we have actually almost two acres. And so we wanted to fence in an acre and all of a sudden it was like a $10,000 fence. And it’s like man – nowhere like that would have covered rent for a whole year at the old place. But we didn’t even factor that in because you just it’s just the stuff that you don’t think about. So it’s everything like that. I mean, I think it’s this the surprises, the things you don’t anticipate. But it’s also the regular stuff, you know. Stuff breaks, water heater goes down, a washing machine, dishwasher, and all those things, you don’t have a maintenance department to call anymore. You have to you know the landlord to check in with right you have to fix it yourself and get it taken care of. So I think I think those are the some of the big things. The other thing that I think creeps up and it’s on top of mine right now for me because we do this thing here in Cuyahoga County in Cleveland, Ohio, where every three years, the county assessor will come out and they’ll reassess property values, and then they’ll adjust your taxes as a result. Super nice. Not not like that everywhere. Some places, they lock you into that lower rate, but we get reassessed every three years. And so every three years, my property taxes go up in some fashion. And sometimes it’s more, sometimes it’s less, but it’s always on the up. So even if we did that math nine, almost 10 years ago, right? It all worked out, then things have gotten more expensive, right. And so it’s, it’s all those little things that start to creep up over time that you don’t have the backup plan for. Now, I will say this, rent has also been increasing. So it’s not like everything’s immune to that, right. You might have started renting a place for $1,000 a month, or $1100 dollars a month. And now it’s 15. Right. And so that that’s, that’s still there as well and has to be factored in. But with a home, it just feels like all of it is on your shoulders. And it’s really just when it comes down, you have to be the one to take care of it.

Tim Ulbrich 27:00

And I had the same thought. We had a reassessment, actually, both on the commercial property, which was outrageous, but on the primary home, it was not as bad, but it got me thinking the same line of thinking you are, which is the tendency when we buy and even again, no judgment when we bought our second home here in Columbus, you know, I remember those conversations where Jess and I were kind of looking at, okay, where where do we want to be monthly payment wise, that we really feel like we’re comfortable within the budget, but you’re thinking about it in that moment in time. Right. And, you know, hopefully, incomes are going up to help offset this. But this is one of the challenges we’re seeing, I think in some sectors of our profession is that they’re not or if they are and you factor in inflation and other costs, maybe they’re not to the degree that we actually think they are even if that number is going up. And so you look at things like property taxes. Homeowners insurance is something that’s kicked up here in the last couple years more significantly, and I think we’re going to continue to see that. And then you highlighted well, you know, the fence example that’s given. We did the same thing. We didn’t have that big of a fence. But you know, I remember it was a fence, it was repairing the deck, it was the lawn maintenance, it was because we never owned a home before, you know, all of the lawn equipment, things that you had to get for the first time and, you know, obviously furniture, you look at the home and you’re like, Oh, it’s fine. We like it. And then you get in and it’s like, well, you know, what about this? And you know, what about that, and those things seems small. But you know, those add up quickly. And it goes back to the theme of where we’ve been going throughout the episode, which is, hey, will you go back to your 50-30-20 or whatever type of budgeting system you’re using, you know, margin breathing room, knowing that up is going to be the trend, whether it’s property taxes, homeowners insurance, upkeep, remodeling the home, a roof, hot water, tank, AC, whatever, it’s gonna go up, and we want to have margin to be able to plan and save for those expenses.

Nate Hedrick 27:01

If you want a way to ensure that you’re financially less stressed, build in that margin upfront. It just makes it so much easier when you have that surprise, like if you have $1,000 water heater that needs to be replaced, but you’ve built in $1000 extra dollars in your budget every month. It’s just a blip. Like you don’t have to have this emergency fund that you’re cracking open and like it just it feels so much easier to have those those bumps because it’s not consistent. Like that’s the biggest thing with homeownership is – it nothing is consistent, every month is going to be different no matter what you do. And building in some of that margin building in that that error is just a great way to de stress that whole process.

Tim Ulbrich 28:53

Yeah, I think what we’re really trying to prevent is we you know, talk about the theme here of avoiding the trap of being house poor and really evaluating all these costs that we don’t achieve one goal at the expense of a bunch of others. So you know homeownership has a ton of value. We’ve talked about it on the show before. We’re both big believers in homeownership and that it has tremendous value but also we don’t want to be in that home and then like hey, we were stressed about taking the trip or the vacation or stressed about you know not being able to stay on track with retirement or other goals along the way as well. Utilities, Nate, is another one I was just thinking about our utilities keep creeping up. And it feels like that’s another one that you look back two three years and you’re like, wait a minute, what’s, what’s the heating bill? Compared to what it was?

Nate Hedrick 30:14

I have a good story about that, too. I don’t know if I’ve told this on the podcast before but early on, when we lived in our house, the water company wanted to install this wireless water meter. And I got like one letter about it. And it was like, hey, call us schedule a time for us to come out install this wireless reader that way we can see remotely like what your water usage is, and like, we’ll come out and install it. It’s free, just let us know. And I ignored it because I was busy and everything else. And so we stopped getting water bills. And I didn’t notice. And then about a year and a half in of like that, that notice coming? I was like, Man, are we even going to water bill No, in a while. So I logged in. And I cannot believe to this day, I cannot believe that didn’t stop our water. We were over $1,200 behind. I think my agenda is we just I hadn’t been paying attention to it. And it wasn’t an auto bill. And so like one of those $1,000 bumps that just showed up. So I mean, again, I’m shocked they never turned off our water. But that was that was an example of that creep from the utility company for sure.

Tim Ulbrich 31:16

Surprised they weren’t knocking on your door.

Nate Hedrick 31:17

I know, right?

Tim Ulbrich 31:18

So speaking of…you made me think… hey, this is good story hour when Nate and Tim, but as we’re talking about cost of home ownership you don’t expect. I don’t know if I told you this one – a few years ago. So in our basement, we’ve never had a water softener system. So and, and full disclaimer, I am inept, completely inept when it comes to anything. So just keep that in mind for anyone who’s judging me as we’re talking about this. So never had a water softening system. The boys- we’ve got four boys are constantly down there throwing balls or whatever. Well, for those that have one, you know, there’s a backwash valve that will come on periodically to flush the system. Well, they had hit the backwash valve. And I don’t know you’re not down there enough? I’m not paying attention. I don’t even know what this thing is. Is it doing you know, whatever. So come to find out like it had turned on. It’s just been running. I don’t know for how long it’s been running. So I realized this, and then sure enough, like, I might have been a week, 10 days later, I get a bill for $4000. And I call it the and for those that have looked at your water sewer bill. Any water usage you’re using, you’re doubling up as sewers. So I call the Franklin County Department of sanitary engineering and I’m like, hey, listen, this is what happened. You’re not gonna believe it. I get it. I’m an idiot. And I was like, hey, I’ll I’ll write a check tomorrow, if you let me pay $2,000. And they were like, super gracious.

Nate Hedrick 31:21

Wow, cool.

Tim Ulbrich 31:27

Yeah. And so again, write things that come up that you’re just like, I never thought that this expense might actually exist. Jess and I have a running mental log of all of the damage slash expenses that have happened as a result of the boys.

Nate Hedrick 32:59

You can present that to my graduation, like oh great you owe me this now.

Tim Ulbrich 33:03

And here’s the opportunity cost. Another thing I want to acknowledge as we’re talking about affordability of home, we’re talking about some more of those ongoing costs. But also, not all downpayments, right, are created equal depending on the loan type. And not that we need to get into all the different types of loans. We’ve talked about it before in the show. But I just want to emphasize this, especially for the for the first time homebuyers, you know, there’s a range from 0% to something more conventional on 20%. But when you’re talking about a three, four or $500,000, home or more, there’s a big difference in terms of house affordability. So any thoughts or wisdom you’d have there to share based on your your conversation with clients and what they’re expecting maybe coming in of a down payment? And then as they learn to navigate this a little bit further?

Nate Hedrick 33:50

I think the most people that they’ve talked to especially like their parents, right, I think most people assume or think that they’ve got to have 20% down to buy a home. The reality is, there’s a ton of different programs out there and you don’t need anywhere near 20% down. And you can still do that lower down payment without too much of a penalty, right. There are certainly situations where you’re going to have to pay a little more in terms of either interest rate or private mortgage insurance, things like that. But there are a number of awesome programs out there that can help with down payment assistance, that can lower the downpayment that’s required and still have a competitive interest rate. The real trick I guess, at this point is to one talk to an agent that actually knows what they’re doing, working with these types of clients that can help with with finding a good lender. Or talk to a lender that knows these products inside and out. There’s a lender that I work with regularly that has like a lineup of programs that he can push people into of like, Hey, you’re a nurse, awesome. You get you qualify for the Ohio Heroes program. Let’s get you into that. Or you’re a firefighter you get you know, Ohio Heroes. You’re a recent graduate. Great here you qualify for this new grad program. It gives you $5,000, no questions asked. Like so there are programs out there there are things to help with that. And I think a lot of people just go in assuming, well, I gotta find 20% down, or I’m gonna pay a ton of money. And that’s my only choice. And there really are a lot more options out there.

Tim Ulbrich 35:09

I think to your point, you know, that relationship with an agent, that relationship with a lender, really important. Options is what I hear there too, right? I think it’s easy to get sucked into a option without kind of looking across the board and making sure you’re looking at everything. Down payment is a factor, obviously, competitive interest rates, there’s a lot going on with points and things right now making sure that you’re actually really looking at the full aspect of the product. And that is transparent, because sometimes it can be hard to compare apples to apples, you know, some offers, I’ve seen this a lot, where people in one case are looking at a rate and it has point reductions and other cases it doesn’t, and they’re not necessarily, you know, seeing the comparison and difference there. I sprinkle this into the beginning, I’m gonna come back to it again, for those that are, you know, looking to buy now or in the future. We’ve partnered with you and your real estate concierge service now for many years, and love what you’re doing to help out homebuyers. Tell us more about what is all involved in that and where folks can go to learn more?

Nate Hedrick 36:07

I mean, all of a sudden we’ve been talking about right? It’s it’s a lot to wrap your head around, and we’re only scraping the surface of all the stuff there is to know and things to navigate and everybody’s situation is unique. Right? You might be sitting there listening to this right now and thinking, well, we’ve got this and you don’t even talked about that, like what what do I do, right? And so having somebody on your team, I think is really important. And that’s that’s why we created the concierge service to begin with is to have that sort of team mentality around it, and give you somebody in your corner that that has experienced helping navigate whatever it is. So the way the program works is that you basically go to my website, we’ve mentioned that before. And you can sign up for a free call with me, do a 30 minute jumpstart planning call where we can ask and answer a lot of those questions that you have, get you connected with a fantastic agent, gets you connected with a great lender if you need it. Whatever we need to do to get you off and running in the right direction, right. And that might be that you’re ready to buy now. And you’re like, hey, we just have been popping on Zillow help us out. Or it might be that you’re nine months down the road, and you’re just starting to plan things out. Both of those are great times to connect with us. So it’s a completely free service. We don’t charge anything for that. We just again, try to offer a way to help people navigate this very complicated process with somebody that’s experienced it and lived and breathed it for several years now.

Tim Ulbrich 37:26

Great stuff, Nate. Two ways you can get there, you can go directly to realestaterph.com. We’ll link to that in the show notes. You can also go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com. You’ll see an option for home buying at the top, and then you click on “Find an agent” and we’ll get to that same exact place and then you can book a call with Nate to continue that discussion. Nate, great stuff as always. I look forward to having you back on the show throughout the year. I know we’re do some webinar stuff as well. So to our community, make sure you be on the lookout for information we’re gonna have forthcoming as it relates to some home buying materials, webinars and future episodes as well. Thanks, Nate.

Nate Hedrick 37:57

Thanks, Tim.

Tim Ulbrich 37:58

Nate and I have covered a ton of information in this podcast. So imagine working with Nate one on one through your home buying journey and having his support to give you much needed peace of mind. We know many pharmacists want to feel confident about big financial decisions, including a home purchase. So if you have fears of being house poor, concerns about the impact a home purchase might have on your other financial goals, Nate and his home buying concierge service can help all at no cost to you. You can visit realestaterph.com or click on the link in the show notes to schedule your FREE 30 minute jumpstart planning session with Nate.

Tim Ulbrich 38:36

DISCLAIMER: As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 352: Pharmacy Innovators with Kelley Carlstrom, PharmD, BCOP

Posted on March 28, 2024March 27, 2024 by YFP Media

In another episode of the Pharmacy Innovator series, Dr. Kelley Carlstrom, CEO and founder of KelleyCPharmD, discusses entrepreneurship in oncology pharmacy.

Episode Summary

On this episode, we have another segment of the YFP Podcast’s Pharmacy Innovator series! Hosted by Corrie Sanders, PharmD, this series is tailored for pharmacists venturing into entrepreneurship, featuring stories and strategies for aspiring pharmacy entrepreneurs.

This week, we delve into the dynamic world of entrepreneurship within oncology pharmacy with Dr. Kelley Carlstrom. Kelley is a board-certified oncology pharmacist and CEO and founder of KelleyCPharmD, which addresses crucial gaps in clinical oncology training. Dr. Carlstrom shares her experiences working in traditional and non-traditional settings, healthcare technology, insights on her transition from employee to entrepreneur, her evolving business model, and opportunities in oncology for pharmacists. Kelley also discusses how to monetize your expertise and the value of communities when starting a business.

About Today’s Guest

Kelley Carlstrom is the CEO and founder of KelleyCPharmD, an education company that fills the considerable gap in clinical oncology training. She is passionate about democratizing oncology pharmacy education and increasing accessibility and inclusion through her unique L.E.A.R.N Oncology Method.

Kelley received her Doctor of Pharmacy from The University of Colorado and completed post-graduate residency training at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center and Dana-Farber Cancer Institute in Boston, MA.

She is a board-certified oncology pharmacist that has worked in a variety of traditional and non-traditional settings including at large academic and small community cancer centers, as a consultant for a large electronic medical record implementation, and in the healthcare technology space helping create digital products for oncology clinicians and patients.

Kelley is also a prolific content creator, sharing clinical and motivational pearls about oncology. She is part of the LinkedIn Top Voices program, an invitation-only program that recognizes and celebrates the most influential and engaging professionals on LinkedIn.

Key Points from the Episode

Entrepreneurship pathway in oncology pharmacy with Dr. Kelley Carlstrom. [0:00]
Career transition and business ideas for pharmacists. [2:34]
Starting a business in oncology and program design. [6:24]
Building a successful oncology pharmacy business model. [12:27]
Transitioning from consulting to entrepreneurship with a pharmacist. [18:00]
Leveraging clinical skills for business growth. [23:40]
LinkedIn usage and its impact on pharmacy businesses. [28:37]
Oncology pharmacy roles and opportunities. [36:07]
Oncology pharmacy training and business model. [42:27]
Entrepreneurship and decision-making with KelleyCPharmD. [49:35]

Episode Highlights

“You know, once you have a problem, it’s great. But then you have to figure out what’s the best way to solve it both for the both for the customer and for you. Like you don’t want to build a business that you don’t want to run.” – Kelley Carlstrom [7:44]

“So I think when the number one thing I would encourage pharmacists to do is to connect with people that are interesting to them, not just you know, other pharmacists.” -Kelley Carlstrom [30:20]

“When I got into entrepreneurship, I realized you need to make decisions very quickly. And if you’re always second guessing yourself, it’s not you’re you’re not going to be successful.” -Kelley Carlstrom [48:11]

“There are no bad decisions in entrepreneurship. It’s just you have to get off of the table and start walking and start doing things. And that’s how you learn.” – Kelley Carlstrom [48:55]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Corrie Sanders 00:00

Hi YFP community, Corrie Sanders here, host of the Pharmacy Innovator segment of the YFP Podcast. Pharmacy Innovators is designed for pharmacists navigating the entrepreneurial journey. In this series we feature stories and strategies that help guide current and aspiring pharmacy entrepreneurs. Today we have Dr. Kelley Carlstrom, known on social media as the oncology pharmacist. Kelley is the CEO and founder of Kelley C PharmD, an education company that fills a considerable gap in Clinical Oncology training. Dr. Carlstrom is a board certified oncology pharmacist that has worked in a variety of traditional and non traditional settings. This includes a large academic medical center, small community cancer centers, and then the healthcare technology and startup space. Kelley is also a prolific content creator and was recently invited to be part of the LinkedIn top voices team, an invitation only program that recognizes and celebrates the most influential and engaging professionals on LinkedIn. Dr. Carlstrom is a returning guest the podcast and was featured in August of 2021 on episode 217. We will link to that episode in the show notes as it provides great detail about Kelley’s background and pharmacy journey. Today we speak to Kelley about the timing for her jump from employee to entrepreneur and dive into her unique business model how her business has evolved over time, and opportunities in oncology for both Kelley and the pharmacy profession as a whole. Kelley share some great lessons surrounding monetization of her expertise as an oncology pharmacist, to include the value of various communities and reflections on decision making both inside and outside of clinical practice. Now that we’ve set the stage, let’s dive into today’s main event. Our incredible guest, Dr. Kelley Carlstrom. Kelly, welcome back to the podcast. It’s great to have you.

Kelley Carlstrom 01:46

Thank you so much. I’m excited to chat again.

Corrie Sanders 01:49

Well, I know that you and Tim recorded in August of 2021. And during that time, you guys did a great job of really diving into your educational background, your pharmacy career path, what we want to really dive into today is that entrepreneurship pathway, and what exactly that looked like for you when that started in your career. And we’ll get into some details about your mindset and growth. So let’s start with really diving in to the consulting portion of your career. Before that you were in a large academic medical center, you were in an outpatient oncology clinic, and then you transitioned into consulting. So let’s talk about that consulting. How did you find that job? What important mindset shifts happened during that job? And how did that ultimately set you up for success with where you are now?

Kelley Carlstrom 02:34

Yeah, I love talking about this transition, because it was completely unexpected. In my career, I thought that I would be in a clinical practice role my entire career, you know, I spent a decade training in school and in residency to get that type of role I was in, and then all of a sudden, I was I was entertaining, moving out of that role. And I really had a lot of doubts and a lot of conversations with myself during that time about whether I really wanted to do that. And what it came down to was me kind of thinking through what’s the worst that could happen. You know, it sounded like a really interesting opportunity, this consulting. And being in clinical practice was kind of the safe bet. Like I knew I would always have a job that would be very, very comfortable. And consulting was a complete black box. I knew nothing about it. I didn’t really know what they were hiring me to do, which was a Cerner implementation, I had always worked with Epic in the hospitals I worked at. So it was very scary. And I just decided to jump in and see what doors it opened. And it opened a lot of doors both. From a job perspective, and like networking perspective, but also a lot of doors kind of, for me personally, kind of my mindset, how I thought about how I thought about where my career would be, because when I first started consulting, you know, they were paying me very well. And I didn’t, I had never seen a pharmacist in that type of role where I was there, essentially, for the knowledge I had. I wasn’t doing any of the building in the EMR. They had a whole team of analysts that were building, they were hiring me as that clinician, that liaison between their clinical end users, their doctors, nurses, pharmacists, and their Cerner builders, they needed somebody in between to kind of talk both languages. And that was really the first time I’d heard about that role. And that that led me to see like, man, there’s a lot of skills pharmacists have that we don’t talk about, we don’t recognize, we don’t market. And that’s that’s what really opened my eyes to thinking, oh, there’s a lot more out here that I could, that I could dive into. And so that’s how my business ideas kind of got started. I started having a whole bunch of ideas about how how else I could solve problems besides this kind of one specific problem I was solving during my consulting contract. And over time, I just started to iterate on that and lean into it. And it’s been a very interesting journey.

Corrie Sanders 05:06

Yeah, it’s great to hear you say that. Pharmacists aren’t very, don’t realize maybe some of the clinical or some of the skills that we had outside of our clinical training and our knowledge. And it really takes seeing the profession through a different lens to maybe bring that into fruition, and shine a light on some of the skills that we have that have nothing to do with clinical practice. But really what role we play in a team based care model, whether that’s from, you know, an electronic EMR perspective, or whether that’s from a direct patient care perspective. So I love that you highlighted that.

And then Kelley, let’s talk about how the company that you have now started to build off of that consulting practice. So you said you started getting some ideas for your company. What did that look like? Did you have people coming to you with specific questions? Were you getting questions from the company itself about oncology? How did the idea for your business really set a seed during that time?

Kelley Carlstrom 06:04

I was getting a lot of questions on LinkedIn for years where I’ve been active for years, but I honestly wasn’t paying that close attention, which is funny now that I look at it in hindsight. You know, you don’t pay attention until you start paying attention, right? And then the light bulb goes off. And you’re like, Man, why didn’t I think about this years ago? But I had a lot of ideas about about starting a business. You know, it was I had stumbled into a couple podcasts, a couple heard of people heard a couple of people talking about entrepreneurship. And I’m like, Okay, that sounds interesting. But I didn’t really there. This was kind of the beginning of the, of the pharmacy entrepreneur, kind of wave, if you will. And so there wasn’t a lot of people talking about it. So I had a couple ideas that were that were ruminating in my brain. But just all of a sudden, one day, I was answering a LinkedIn message. And everybody asked me the same question on LinkedIn, which was, hey, I’m new to oncology. You talk a lot about oncology on LinkedIn, can you point me to somewhere where I can learn it? And I was like, and I always I got this question so much, I had a copy, paste kind of ready to go of like, five resources that I send to everybody. And just one day, and I’m like, I’ve been answering the same question for a long time. Obviously, there’s a gap here, these people are not residency trained, they’re not going to go back to do residency. They’re working in cancer centers, taking care of cancer patients. And they should be, you know, they want to be better. And they should be supported in this. And I’m like, Alright, I’ve got the training, got the knowledge, how could I help them do this? And that that kind of started started the flow of of a million ideas. You know, once you have a problem, it’s great. But then you have to figure out what’s the best way to solve it both for the both for the customer and for you. Like you don’t want to build a business that you don’t want to run. Right? So I spent a lot of time at the beginning trying to figure out how the heck am I going to do this? Because oncology is giant.It’s not like where you can like set it and forget it, I’ll record a couple of videos and sell that and people will learn oncology. No, we get new drugs approved practically every week. It’s a it’s an ongoing thing. So it took a lot of design upfront.

Corrie Sanders 08:19

And let’s talk about that design. So when you touched base with Tim, it was almost three years ago now. And you were just about to launch the ELO program, which is enjoy learning oncology. So I know that that was going to be your first program within your business. How has that developed? What did that look like when you first put that out? And then ultimately, where are you today with the services and the products that you offer?

Kelley Carlstrom 08:46

Yeah, when I talked to him, I can’t believe it’s been three years – I feel I feel like I’m my mother when I say where does the time go? It goes by so fast. But I remember when I talked with Tim, I was at I was I had just finished my pilot version of my program. So when I had sold the pilot, I had reached out to the the people on my email list that I had expressed interest and I said, Hey, I’m gonna build this thing. It’s not built yet. I’m gonna build this plane as we’re flying it. And I had eight pharmacists that raised their hand that said, Yep, well, we’ll buy into this program, even though you have nothing built Kelley. I literally was building it as they were going through the content. And I took their feedback. And I took the lessons learned from that and kind of made changes and made iterations to it. And that’s kind of when I talked to Tim was when the the first official iteration was was rolling out. And it’s pretty much been the same from a structure perspective since then. So I’m going into the fourth year of that program. And it’s been when I think about the structure, you know, for pharmacists that are thinking about starting something, I really spend time take the time to spend time to really think about how you’re going to format the services that you offer. And one, you obviously want to think about it from the client perspective, like, how is the is the service that you’re offering, or the product you’re offering going to best suit the customer? But also, from your perspective. How are you going to design it? So, one, it doesn’t take up all of your day, because as a business owner, you actually have to run the business, which is, sounds like logical, right? But at the beginning, you don’t really think about how many kind of back end, if you will, things there are, you know, not just kind of bookkeeping, like the standard things. But also, marketing takes up a big chunk of my time and relationship building and just client support, customer success, things like that, like they, that takes a lot of time. So when I was building the program, I really thought about one, one challenge I have is oncology is rapidly changing. So I had to figure out how am I going to keep up with this in terms of content? And then two is, am I who’s going to do it? Is it me, or am I going to get other people to do it. And so I settled on a model where I hire other expert pharmacists to support the lesson content. So at any given time, I have 24 expert oncology pharmacists that are in my program, because I have 24 lessons. And they’re the ones that are reviewing the content, kind of making sure it’s updated. They’re the ones that are supporting my clients with clinical questions. And that takes that pressure off of me. But it also frees me up to do the operation side behind it, you know, I need to find those experts, I need to get them the content to review, I need to review their content, because the program is through my lens, it’s my kind of IP. And so just because an expert says we should include something doesn’t mean I necessarily include it, it’s just, you know, I know my customers very well I know what stage they’re at. And so I everything has to kind of filter through what the what the lenses of my client and my particular program. So when you’re designing your your business and your offers, I think it’s really important to think about all those different steps and not get bogged down in the really fun kind of sexy things at the beginning, which is like, Oh, I’m gonna, I’m gonna offer something for sale, it’s like, well, you have to, you have to really think thoughtfully about it and not not kind of box yourself in.

Corrie Sanders 12:27

And I want to highlight a couple of things that you said, especially at the beginning there about one, you had a very small cohort to start. You at eight pharmacists. And you were learning as you said, you were building the plane while you’re flying it, I think that that is instrumental to, it does not have to be a perfect business model. And it’s not going to be a perfect business model. And it is going to evolve over the course of time. So just getting started and realizing that yes, there’s going to be so many modifications and iterations of different things along the way. But all you really need is that small cohort or client base to launch yourself and to figure out what you need and the feedback and the evolution of a business. So I think that that’s really important to hold on is that it is going to not be perfect from the start. And you’re not going to have 100% market share or analysis from the second that you started your own company that will evolve over time. So let’s explain that that business model a little more just because I want listeners to really understand how valuable the business model that you’ve built is. And I think you’ve done such a great job. I mean, honestly, you are one of the pharmacy pioneers and really monetizing your clinical expertise. So you have these programs, and they’re sold directly to pharmacists that are practicing oncology. And how do they buy into that? Are they buying into each lesson individually? Are they buying into packages? Have you tiered them over time? Has that changed over time? What is ultimately the product that the consumer is buying?

Kelley Carlstrom 13:56

Yeah, great question. I have a essentially, I have a signature program, and I have a couple tiers to it. But I have one kind of main tier, one main offer that I want to sell. And the reason I want to sell it, it’s called my ELO Collaborative. The reason I want to sell it is because I know pharmacists get the best benefit from that particular program. When I was for and that’s that’s the one I’ve been building since my since my beta, my pilot project. And when I started selling it, I got people that would reach out to me and say, Hey, I don’t I don’t want this big program. I just want to do the content. And I’ll go through it on my own. And so I do have like a DIY path where people can access the program content, but they can’t access the experts in the program where which is where you can ask questions and get support and kind of hear, hear the experts talk through those real world nuances which are so important in oncology. And so that came about because people were asking the market was literally he asking me to sell them something. So that’s great when that happens, but I think you really do also need to know, how do you get your customers the best outcome, because at the end of the day, if they’re buying into your program or service, and they’re not getting an outcome, they’re not going to talk about you, you’re not going to have that word of mouth, which you do need and is beneficial in any type of business. So I think really, really honing in on on what that offer is. Because if you have a lot of offers, it’s hard to focus on one particular one. So I do have tiers to my main offer. And then over time, I’ve, I’ve considered other kind of smaller offers that I’m always kind of experimenting with, which I think is a really important part of entrepreneurship is experimentation, which I didn’t really understand. At the beginning, I wish I had done more of it initially. It’s easy to get kind of stuck in, like, Oh, this is what so and so guru says, or this is what some other entrepreneur’s doing, I’m going to I’m going to do it exactly for my business. But that’s our businesses, everybody, every business is different, particularly healthcare, clinician based businesses, I have found are very different, like marketing tactics don’t work the same as they do for, you know, other types of businesses. So I think experimentation is really important. But so I’ve got that name program, I’ve got tiers to that program, I also have some individual courses that I’m now starting to sell, I’m actually rolling those out now. And I also do, I also offer like one-to-one mentorship matching. So pharmacists that want to work one-to-one with an experienced oncology pharmacist, kind of like a preceptor and a residency where you can talk with them about maybe a QI project, or maybe you want to change roles, and you need to create a case presentation to present at an interview and you want some help with that. I also do some matching with things like that, but at the core of my business is this ELO collaborative program. That’s what I’m known for. And I help I help pharmacists that are working in oncology today, develop their baseline knowledge, and that’s a very clear kind of avatar or, or target client as well, you know. When I started, I was pretty broad. And I included people that were interested in oncology. But that is challenging, because if you’re not working in oncology today, and you’re trying to learn this really complex field, it’s much harder because you’re not applying it at work. So I would encourage listeners also to think, who is your best fit client, and it feels counterintuitive to narrow and to niche down. But it’s actually the best thing for a small business is be super, super clear. Because when people come across my website, when they come across my LinkedIn, when they meet me at a conference, it’s it’s very clear who I helped. And when it’s clear, that means other people can refer me very easily.

Corrie Sanders 18:00

And that is such an important point. I also love that you talk about experimenting a little bit. And not only using and leveraging experimenting to get to that target audience. But there’s no wrong and experimenting as an entrepreneur, trying to figure out who your ultimate end user is how that changes over time. And then it sounds like you’re doing a great job of also getting feedback from your clients to make sure that you’re providing the services that they want, you’re providing the services that they paid for. And that ultimately, you know, what they’re purchasing is, what they’re getting, and how you can help fill some more gaps and some more needs based off of those responses to I think that’s really great. So Kelly, I want to step back a little bit further. So we talked about the nuances of your business, and the tears and how that’s evolved over time. Let’s talk about the transition from that consulting role to ultimately stepping out and having your own business. Was there something that was very black and white, where the contract ended? And then you decided, Oh, this is the perfect time that I’ll do that. Were you kind of you know, one foot in each camp where you were doing both of them simultaneously, and then you eventually made the jump? What did that transition ultimately look like for you?

Kelley Carlstrom 19:12

Yeah, I straddled a lot for a long time. And I think I think most pharmacists could probably appreciate the fact that I was very risk averse. When I was in clinical practice. I think a lot of pharmacists are it’s probably a bias for who they let into pharmacy school or at least did when I applied you know, it’s just a natural tendency to be like, this is risky, I don’t want to do it. But when I jumped into that consulting role that kind of gave me that initial like zing if you will, of what it felt like to take a risk and it didn’t, it wasn’t terrible. Like alright, I survived this risk and I got a lot of benefit from it. So that that led me to think okay, what’s the next next risk I should take? Now with that said, I still I was very cautious at the beginning because I had so many ideas. I knew zero about business. Like in my pharmacy program, we had that classic, you know, business course, which was really an independent pharmacy course. So I didn’t take it because I wasn’t interested in it. So I knew nothing about business. And I was really nervous at the beginning, like, I don’t know anything about running this business. So I didn’t want to invest a lot of money into it, I was willing to invest my time, kind of my sweat equity, if you will. And that’s what I did. I had like, all the free tools, my email tool was free. I did pay, I did invest for some business coaching upfront, but for the most part, I tried to spend as little as possible until I validated the idea and people were paying me money. And then when that when I got that validation, and I started investing more, I realized, okay, if I can continue my day job and have the revenue, the income from that supporting my life, and anything extra that I make from my business is you know, is I don’t need to pay myself, I can reinvest it in the business. So that first pilot that I ran, I didn’t, I made zero money, I lost money on it, actually. But that didn’t matter to me, because I was getting a lot of feedback. And I was like validating the idea. And so I kept working I was I did consulting for almost three years. So during the pandemic, I actually had the opportunity to take a role in a in a startup. So a healthcare tech startup that was building oncology software tools for clinicians and for patients. And so what that allowed me to do was continue to straddle those things, I was building my business while I was still making a full time salary. And I did that for about a year and a half, and then transitioned into part time. So I actually got recruited out of that role. And this is a good little side caveat about LinkedIn. I always talk about how great LinkedIn is. And I will continue forever talking about it because pharmacists do not use it enough, we need to use it more. But I got recruited. And I was not looking for a job. But somebody reached out to me and said, Hey, I see you posting all this stuff, because I was posting a lot of oncology content for my marketing purposes. And he said, I want you at my company, what kind of job do you want? Essentially, essentially built me a job. And I said, well, I’m building this business, I don’t want to work full time. And he said, fine. So I got a, I got a part-time job in in a digital health company, and did that for about a year and then actually got laid off from that. So it was a lot of tech layoffs at that time, which was just about a year ago. And so that’s how I came to work full-time in my business, which honestly was a great thing. Funnily enough, when I found it funny enough, when, when I got laid off, I called a couple of people that day. And, two of them said immediately, congratulations. I said, I’m not sure you’re supposed to say that when somebody gets laid off. But they knew I was building this business and they were like, you’re ready to just like try it out and see how it goes full time. So I have now been full time in my business for about a year. So you know, suffice to say this, the summary of that is that I didn’t I didn’t want to go full-time right away. Because one I didn’t know if it could support me from a revenue perspective, I wanted to be able to invest a lot of my, my revenue back in the business, and to have it grow. And so I did, I straddled two, two roles for gosh, three and a half years or so before I went full time.

Corrie Sanders 23:40

But I think it’s important to recognize that that’s maybe the best path for most pharmacists that are risk averse. I think there’s a lot of validity to you know, jumping off a cliff and investing in yourself and sinking or swimming to see if you survive. But ultimately, that can have a lot of dark ends if you haven’t really pivoted to a model, if you haven’t established proof of concept, if you don’t have the confidence in yourself yet that you’re going to be able to run whatever business it is. So I love that you straddled both. To be honest, it sounds like you really built up something that was manageable and workable and scalable during that time, while you were you know, had one foot in each camp. And then eventually, when you were congratulated for getting laid off from your job. You already had that experience. And you already had that model and you already had that confidence to move forward with your business. So I love that. And I think that that’s a great growth trajectory and maybe a more realistic growth trajectory for some of our more risk averse pharmacists. So Kelley, what resources outside of LinkedIn and we’ll get into LinkedIn in a little bit because I want to give you some time to talk about this platform that you love so much. But outside of LinkedIn, what resources did you use? Was there any tapping into a small business community in your area? Did you have any coaches? Did you really just boot strap this thing independently all by yourself, or were there some outside community entities that helped you better leverage your clinical skill set and set up a business model?

Kelley Carlstrom 25:10

Well, nothing is ever done by yourself. There’s always a huge team, whether they work for you or not, but there’s always people that you lean on. And so my initial resource was the Medi-preneurs Conference, which I went to back in 20, I think it was early 2019. And that’s where I kind of brought like a bunch of ideas I had, and the education business is what kind of, you know, took root, if you will, in some of the conversations that we had, and that that’s what I ran with after that. But I have a software idea, actually, when I first start when I thought that was going to be what I what I went with at the beginning. So that’s a great tool I did, I did use some of the Score, resources. So everybody probably has a Score chapter near them. This is I forget exactly what it stands for. But it’s essentially retired executives that are that help the small business community and it’s a free service in your local community. I also did work with a couple different business coaches. And you know, that’s a whole conversation in and of itself, too. I’ve worked with many different coaches over over the past couple years. But I did work with a couple in the beginning that kind of helped me get some traction helped me understand the basics. So you know, I knew nothing about running a business. So business coaches, at least got me a little bit on the right fit about the right foot about finding like product market fit and who my clients would be and how I would need to talk about it. I also listened to a ton of podcasts. So when I was traveling for consulting, I was I was on a plane, like a lot. Listen to tons and tons of podcasts. And honestly, most of them were way over my head. I remember listening and them talking about acronyms or saying words that I had no idea what they meant. And I just kept listening and kind of absorbing just kind of throughout osmosis. Honestly, like I wasn’t taking notes or anything, I was just listening and seeing what little nuggets I could catch on to what strings I could pull a little bit and learn a little bit more. I didn’t do a lot of reading of business books at that time. But that’s something I use now I listen to a lot of audiobooks or read business books, I have a long list and in my queue of anytime somebody recommends a book, I drop it in my queue whether or not I can get to it right away

Corrie Sanders 27:28

I do the exact same!

Kelley Carlstrom 27:30

You can only read so many at a time. But and honestly something that I think we don’t value enough in pharmacy or not, I guess not that we don’t value enough, but we don’t know enough about it our communities. So how can you find a group of like minded people that are working towards a similar goal, so you all can learn from each other. I’ve been in multiple different communities. And I would encourage pharmacists to look outside of pharmacy communities as well. Because pharmacy, although pharmacy entrepreneurs and pharmacy, pharmacist run businesses alike, depending on your business, if you’re selling, you know, like a service to anybody. But if you’re marketing to healthcare clinicians, I think it’s really easy to get in a silo and forget about some of the general business practices. And I’ve learned so much from just a communities of regular entrepreneurs, you know, often I’m the only pharmacist in those groups. Sometimes there’s other healthcare clinicians, but usually, most of them are not in healthcare. And I’ve learned a lot from them.

Corrie Sanders 28:37

And I think that that’s an important differentiation, too. So you’re still learning a lot, but your end user is a pharmacist. So you can ultimately relate because you guys are seeing practice through the same lens, you’re seeing your service and your products through the same lens. But I think that’s even more important if you’re selling to non-pharmacists, is embedding yourselves in these communities and learning how to speak business to people that aren’t pharmacists or just how to speak business in general, right, like, we, one, don’t sell ourselves appropriately, normally, for what we can do as pharmacists. But really having to see your business outside of that pharmacy lens is something that I think you’re alluding to, and then I certainly found very helpful is having that communication line and having that vernacular to be relatable to someone that doesn’t know anything about your profession for the most part. So Kelley, let’s talk about the LinkedIn community. Because you’ve mentioned that a couple times throughout our conversation already, I want to give you a chance to really explain how LinkedIn has shaped and changed the trajectory of your business and your personal development. And then let’s talk a little bit to about the elite community that you’re a part of in LinkedIn and how you got invited into that.

Kelley Carlstrom 29:45

Sure, yeah, LinkedIn is, I think people underestimate it because they don’t know what it’s about. You know, I remember when I first joined, which was back in 2014, early 2014. And I remember looking at the feed and thinking like, oh, okay, this is sort of like the Facebook feed. But I didn’t see anything particularly interesting. So I’m like, this is kind of boring. Why am I here? And the reason I didn’t see anything interesting is because I didn’t have a network that I was connected with. So LinkedIn didn’t know what information to share with me. So I think when the number one thing I would encourage pharmacists to do is to connect with people that are interesting to them, not just you know, other pharmacists, but sure, other pharmacists. But also people that are, you know, if you’re interested in the technology space, you know, connect with technology leaders connect with if you’re in managed care to connect with people, you know, that are in that space that talk about problems and solutions in that space, because that means your feed is going to be interesting to you. So once I’ve been building up my, my network, they’re on LinkedIn for many years, I started to get much more engaged, because I saw interesting things, I connected with interesting people. And again, that’s where I got recruited into that consulting role, actually, the consulting role in the digital health role. So I’ve always, I’ve always known that that’s where people find me. But the key is, you have to be active. And what I mean by active is, you have to log in pretty regularly. I always chuckle when I send people a message, and I get a response, like three months later. And they say, sorry, I don’t really log in that often. And I’m like, okay, that’s, that’s fine, if you would, if you don’t want to do that, but you’re not going to be able to use LinkedIn, for the way that it’s been intended to be used, which is to have you be seen, and for you to see others and you have to log in, and you have to engage pharmacists are not engagers. We, we are lurkers by default, and by lurkers. I mean, you read the content, but you don’t click the Like button, you don’t message people, you don’t write comments, just lurk on other people’s posts. And I know this to be true, because I go to conferences, and people say, Kelley, I love your content! And I have no idea who they are. Because they never put a comment, they never send me a message, they just lurk on my information, which is fine. I mean, it’s free content I’m putting out there, but you’re I just had a post this week or last week about it where you know, those that those that speak up, stand up, like they’re the ones that if you’re saying if you’re putting yourself out there, and you’re interacting, and you’re commenting that you’re gonna get more kind of recognition, more help, like people are much more likely to respond to a message and answer a question you have when you’re when you’ve already engaged with your content previously. So I think those are the those are the big things like login regularly and really engage, even if it puts you out of your comfort zone, which it will in the beginning. But but push yourself, push yourself, you know, you don’t have to write this huge diatribe. Just write you know, think about one sentence comment on somebody’s post that’s insightful or something from your experience that could help not only the person that posted it, but also somebody else that comes across that post, you know, hey, think about this perspective, or this is what I have seen in practice when I’ve seen this happen that that goes a long way on LinkedIn. So that’s how I’ve used it, I use it today. I do I post a lot of content. So I post Monday through Friday. For our aspiring pharmacy entrepreneurs, I would not recommend starting there. It is a lot. I worked my way up to that. I first started posting infrequently, then I was posting once a week, then twice a week, then three days a week. And then when I went full time last year, I started posting five days a week, but content creation is is a whole is a whole thing. It’s a whole beast. It takes a lot. It takes a lot of time and effort to do it. So don’t don’t start there. But that’s how I that’s how I present on LinkedIn. I also do a lot of outreach. I connect with a lot of pharmacists, both individual pharmacists working in oncology and not, I connect with other healthcare leaders. And I use it to help not only kind of pharmacists find my program, because that’s a marketing effort that I’m putting in. I want pharmacists working in oncology that are new to oncology to see my content and recognize that I can help them learn this complex specialty. But I’m also using it to spread the word about oncology pharmacists. You know, I get a lot of people that comment on my posts to say, Oh, I didn’t realize oncology pharmacists could do that. And that that’s kind of a much more broad profession expansion when when people outside of our profession start recognizing what we can do. So I enjoy having that impact as well and that comes with when you have the ability to reach more people. So that’s how I use LinkedIn kind of on the regular and then you mentioned the group I’m a part of, which is called LinkedIn Top Voices. And this is an invite program, an invite only program that LinkedIn extends to people that are that produce a lot of content that is helping users of LinkedIn. And so I was invited into this program in January of this year, which is super exciting. It’s pretty it’s it is like, I think less than .5% of LinkedIn users are in this program. And what I have learned, from I’ve actually learned a lot about LinkedIn from being in this program just a few months. And what I’ve learned is that they it’s different than other social media platforms, they want their users of the LinkedIn platform to get better. They’re invested in helping professionals get better at their jobs, learn and develop themselves as they want people on the platform that are sharing content, that will help the users do that. So that’s how I got invited because I share a lot of content that helps oncology pharmacists get better at their jobs and develop themselves.

Corrie Sanders 36:07

And it’s great to certainly be rewarded for putting so much time into the platform and effort and energy over the past 10 years. And again, that’s something that was not recognized overnight, you gradually worked your way up from just sporadically posting to a couple times a week to every day, Monday through Friday. So I think that’s something too, that maybe entrepreneurs will lean into LinkedIn very, very hard at the beginning of their journeys, or maybe there’s a maybe they actually don’t lean into it at all. But really realizing what you can do with that platform. If you use it to the maximum extent if you’re cultivating a feed that provides you a voice and provides you information that’s relevant to your business, or relevant to your specialty area. There’s certainly a learning curve with LinkedIn. And there’s certainly a way that you can make the platform much more valuable to you than I think the average pharmacist realizes. So that’s great to hear that you’re being rewarded for the time and the effort that you put into the platform too. So Kelley, let’s talk a little bit now about what oncology is going to look like in the future. You are in the depths of oncology, you are the oncology pharmacist, as you’re known on LinkedIn. So what do you see for oncology in the future? And what do you see the roles for pharmacy specifically in oncology, and the next couple of years? So specifically for this question, I’m thinking of pharmacists that may or may not know if they want to dabble in oncology, or maybe they were voluntold to now be a part of an oncology program. Like where do you think the trajectory of oncology and pharmacy and oncology is going?

Kelley Carlstrom 37:43

I like voluntold. I have a lot of clients that kind of fell into oncology. I actually didn’t like oncology at school. It was not where I expected to be. And I didn’t get into it until my grandmother developed leukemia when I was a P4 student on rotation. So there’s kind of two components of this question. I guess there’s like the, the what types of jobs will there be, and like the tactical pieces, and then the outlook of, you know, where’s oncology pharmacy going? So the outlook is, is that it’s growing? It, I mean, it’s really the best specialty if we think about it. Yes, I’m biased, but it’s totally the best specialty for many reasons. Because we have the most drugs approved, we have the most clinical trials, we have arguably the most expensive drugs. And that means that and the most complex drugs, which all means that the pharmacist has a really important role in helping manage costs and toxicities from all these drugs that are hitting the market. So there’s definitely going to be lots of drugs, lots of opportunities, lots of jobs in oncology. And the types of jobs that there are and will be, are pretty vast. I don’t think people recognize how many different types of opportunities there are. So certainly, there are many positions in patient care. And this is where a lot of the jobs are right now. And that is because we are having similar burnout issues in oncology pharmacy as the rest of the profession is having lots of our experienced staff are leaving clinical practice, which is a bummer. Honestly. I think it’s great for them, because everybody’s entitled to you know, do jobs that, do work that fulfills them, but it’s also leaving a big gap in patient care. And even if we can fill that gap with bodies, which we do, and they are all like centers are almost always recruiting and hiring for oncology positions. What what the missing piece is that we’re losing people with experience. So when somebody with 15 plus years walks out the door and they hire somebody with a couple of years, even if they’re residency trained, that’s a big gap in knowledge and experience that’s leaving. So I think that’s that’s a challenge we’re all facing and in all the oncology conferences we’re talking about it ad nauseam, because we haven’t figured out how to stem this kind of bleeding, if you will. So there’s lots of opportunity in patient care both in community cancers, in academic centers, inpatient, outpatient, individual private practices, even though there’s not a ton of those around anymore, there still are plenty. There are also patient care roles or specialty pharmacies. So this is particularly good for pharmacists in the retail community setting that want to do something a little bit different. Specialty Pharmacy is an excellent transition. Actually just heard about an opportunity in California where they, they ideally want somebody with a retail background, who also has an interest in oncology. They’re willing to do training in oncology, because they have legal requirements where they need a pick to dispense oral drugs and this particular legal situation, but they’re dispensing oncology drugs. So they want that retail background, but you need some, you know, they’re, they’re dealing with these complex drugs. So there’s a lot of opportunities there, we’ve got opportunities in managed care and the payer space. So think about every time you send a prescription, and it needs a prior authorization, those people on the other end at the insurance company that are dealing with those prior authorizations, they often have very little oncology training, which is not fun for getting approved complex oncology drugs, because we’re talking to these people that don’t know anything about oncology. And they’re the ones that are saying yes or no. So those people need oncology training. And there’s, there’s lots almost every oncology drug I feel like needs a prior auth these days. So a lot, there’s a lot of opportunities in managed care. There are certainly jobs in pharma. As with every specialty. There are jobs in tech, like I said, I worked in on the tech side of oncology for many years. And there’s there’s becoming more and more kind of non-traditional roles, I do get a lot of people that reach out asking about remote oncology jobs. There is not a ton, but there are some, there are some at companies like McKesson, for example, where they do still have patient interaction, but they also they also get to, you know, have the flexibility that comes from from being in a remote in a remote position. So lots of opportunity, lots of different types of roles. Again, this is why oncology is the best specialty. Yeah,

Corrie Sanders 42:27

I mean, I think you nailed the, or you hit the nail on the head with the funds are there. Unfortunately, cancer diagnosis is increasing. So the diagnostic component is there. And it’s really just going to be a never ending game, it seems of filling positions for a growing specialty area. So like, as you said, I think there’s a ton of opportunity across various different continuums in the care spectrum, for for people to jump into oncology, even if they don’t necessarily have the experience. And I also love that you said that you didn’t like oncology in school, I’m sure a lot of people will relate to the fact that oncology is a beast of a module in school. And it’s very, very intimidating. So comforting to know that there’s people like you that are creating content and creating different products that people can buy to bridge that gap between what was taught in school and what’s needed in clinical practice. I think that’s such a beautiful business model. So looking at your business model, specifically, what’s in the future for you? It seems like right now you’re doing a lot of direct to consumer products and advertising. Is there any component of a business to business model moving forward? What do you think the evolution of your business is looking like over the next couple years?

Kelley Carlstrom 43:35

Yes, I would love to, to continue to work with institutions. So I have started working with some institutions that enroll their staff in my program. So that’s definitely a focus as well. And that’s because, you know, they’re hiring people without experience, but they also need them to do the job. And what I have found from all centers, I talked to this, they have a very good onboarding, technical process. You know, when somebody’s newly hired, they show you the EMR, they tell you the workflow, this is how, you know, this is how we do this thing here. Nobody gives clinical training. They kind of expect you to learn that on the job or on your own, which I’ll tell you doesn’t work. There’s there’s not enough hours in the day to do it at work. You get kind of the bare mitts sure you’ll get comfortable with some of the drugs, but you won’t understand breast cancer. You won’t understand, well, why is the doctor blowing through treatment parameters for this drug, but not this drug? Those are things you have to learn from a clinical perspective, from a disease perspective. And so institutions are recognizing that they need to support their staff better. And I’ll tell you the main reason is because turnover is expensive to them. You know, I don’t think we realize as pharmacists how much money it costs an institution when you leave. Not only do they have to pull another FTE to cover that that role that you’re leaving, which leaves a gap open somewhere else that and they have to do that for however long the hiring processes and right now the hiring process is long because everybody’s hiring oncology pharmacists and they can’t find people. But then they have to onboard that person. So it takes months for somebody to get up to speed. So it is a it’s like tens of thousands of dollars for people to, to for to recruit. So it is a huge cost savings to retain employees. That means keeping everybody happy. And and also potentially promoting from within. So I have centers that have pulled retail pharmacists, they have pulled ambulatory care pharmacists, which is a pretty good kind of matchup to oncology because they understand the am care space. And there’s actually a lot of internal medicine issues in primary care as well. And then, you know, they have to learn the oncology piece. So I think there’s a lot of financial benefit for institutions to train up their staff. So I look forward to working with with more of those. I’m always going to work with individual pharmacists, because that is honestly what fills my cup. Like there’s nothing, there’s no greater feeling than when a pharmacist reaches out to me and says, I passed the BCAP exam. Or I finally had a conversation with my doctor and didn’t feel like an idiot. Or I made a recommendation about this chemotherapy dosing and the doctor accepted it. Like, ah, those feelings just made me feel so good, because that’s what it’s all about at the end of the day. It’s not only that pharmacist’s gets that, that when and feels like they’re doing good work. But that patient is getting better care because their pharmacist feels more confident and is better educated, and I can’t ask for anything better than that.

Corrie Sanders 46:43

I hope that you can see the ripple effect that you’re creating by training these pharmacists. I mean, it’s I love that the pharmacist gratification fills your cup. But I really hope that you can see not only are you changing so many pharmacist’s lives with the business that you’ve created, but ultimately, the end user and the patient, you’re just improving care for so many more people than you could ever do alone. I love it. I love your business model. I think that it honestly could be applicable to some other specialty areas. For pharmacists that may not be an oncology, there’s certainly a way to leverage monetizing your clinical expertise in different ways and providing that to different pharmacists or other health care providers. I just think what you’ve done and what you’ve built is just something to be very proud of. So Kelley, I will end today with any advice that you would give to any budding pharmacy entrepreneurs, any lessons that you’ve learned along the way or anything that sticks out in your head that you’d like to convey to the listeners.

Kelley Carlstrom 47:39

Yeah, something that I consistently remind myself to do, which is take action. It really makes a bigger difference than then you think it will make. And I remember when I was in clinical practice, I had mentioned that I was risk averse. And for me how that played out was that I would research things to the Nth degree, you know. Whether it was a purchase I was making, whether it was a job decision, it took me months to take a consulting role, because I just kept making pro/con lists. And when I got into entrepreneurship, I realized like that that doesn’t fly, when you’re running a business, it just the time that you need to make decisions is very quick. And if you’re always second guessing yourself, it’s not you’re you’re not going to be successful. So what I would encourage people to do is have that experimenters mindset, which is I’m going to make a decision, I’m going to take some action on whatever this thing is I’m going to pull the trigger on trying out this piece of content or talking to this particular client or trying this new software tool, and then reevaluate it, like nothing is set in stone. So you can think about it a month later, six months later, and decide did that experiment work? Did that decision I made lead to anything to those clients, I was potential clients I was talking to actually buy for me? If a lot of them did great. That was a positive experiment. If they didn’t, no. That means, okay, I need to pivot and change course, it doesn’t mean it was a bad decision. There are no bad decisions in entrepreneurship. It’s just you have to get off of the table and start walking and start doing things. And that’s how you learn. I can’t tell you how many how many times I’ve done something where I’m like, Well, that was unexpected. And if it if it just took me, you know, if it took me months to make that decision, it would have taken me months to figure out that thing didn’t work or that thing didn’t work, you know, you got to make faster decisions in this world.

Corrie Sanders 49:33

And I really enjoy the experimenters mindset. I think that’s a great summary and a great way to put it and also just how you’re alluding to how we make decisions in clinical practice and how we might research decisions and how we might look into those things to the Nth degree. And maybe that shouldn’t necessarily carry over to your business mindset and how you’re running your business and entrepreneurship. Those are two very different, maybe the same skill set, but two very different applications with how you’re going to think about approaching those decision making processes and the time that you put into them. So I love that. I think that was wonderfully said. Well, Kelley, for the listeners that want to find you, they can obviously find you on LinkedIn. But is there any other way that people can find you, your website and I would love for you to also spell out your name to make sure that people get the spelling correctly. We’ll link to it in the show notes. But where else can our viewers and our listeners find you?

Kelley Carlstrom 50:26

Yeah, definitely LinkedIn. Send me a message there, please. And my website is KelleyCPharmD. So that’s Kelly, K-e-l-l-e-y C PharmD. C for my last name. Yes, my mom spelled my name that way. And I always have to spell it.

Corrie Sanders 50:44

Well, Kelley, thank you for your time. This was a wonderful conversation. I think there were a lot of great nuggets built into this conversation, a lot of great learning points that our listeners can take. So thank you again for your time. This was wonderful and we look forward to keeping pace with you and watching you as your business continues to develop.

Kelley Carlstrom 51:01

Thanks so much, I appreciate it.

[DISCLAIMER]

Tim Ulbrich 51:03

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 351: Legacy Planning 101: How to Build Your Legacy Folder

Posted on March 21, 2024March 21, 2024 by YFP Media

Tim Ulbrich discusses the importance of creating a legacy folder to organize essential financial documents for access during emergencies and peace of mind.

Episode Summary

In this episode, YFP Founder and CEO, Tim Ulbrich, delves into the critical aspect of establishing a “legacy folder” to efficiently organize essential financial documents and accounts. This folder serves as a vital resource in emergencies, streamlining access for loved ones and averting confusion or delays. Drawing from personal experience, Ulbrich shares how he and his wife maintain their financial plan and essential documents in a shared electronic folder and a secure physical safe at home, ensuring accessibility and peace of mind during unforeseen circumstances.

Tim explores the contents of the legacy folder, which encompass a comprehensive checklist, electronic copies, and hard copies of vital papers such as birth certificates and social security cards and other critical documents like insurance policies and estate planning materials.

Learn how to proactively organize your financial affairs to safeguard against unforeseen events, ultimately fostering financial peace of mind and security.

About Today’s Guest

Tim Ulbrich is the Co-Founder and CEO of Your Financial Pharmacist. Founded in 2015, YFP is a fee-only financial planning firm and connects with the YFP community of 15,000+ pharmacy professionals via the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast podcast, blog, website resources and speaking engagements. To date, YFP has partnered with 75+ organizations to provide personal finance education.

Key Points from the Episode

Building a legacy folder for financial peace of mind. [0:00]
Creating a “legacy folder” for financial documents. [2:36]
Important documents, insurance policies, estate planning, and car titles. [6:50]
Organizing financial documents for emergency situations. [14:59]

Episode Highlights

“So when it comes to why having a legacy folder is important. Getting organized with your financial records plays a significant role not necessary in terms of moving the needle on your net worth but in making sure you and others have access to all the information that you need to make informed decisions.” – Tim Ulbrich [2:24]

“Now, what is the legacy folder? So essentially the idea of a legacy folder, whether it’s a physical copy and electronic copy, or combination of both. It’s a place where you have all of your financial related documents. So in the event of an emergency, others will be able to quickly assess your financial situation and get access to all of the documents and accounts that pertain to your finances.” – Tim Ulbrich [4:07]

“Don’t underestimate the peace of mind and the clarity that can come from having this information collected.” -Tim Ulbrich [5:25]

“Once you get organized with your information, you’re going to be walking from that point of confidence, you’re going to feel prepared in taking action on other parts of your financial plan.” – Tim Ulbrich [16:49]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRO]

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I’m talking through Legacy Planning 101: How to Build your Legacy Folder and why it’s important. To assist with implementing this important step and your own financial plan, make sure to download the YFP Legacy Folder Checklist at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/legacy. This checklist includes a list of 15+ financial related documents that you can have a record of in your legacy folder. It helps you identify key parts of your financial plan that you may or may not have in place but need to get started. And it helps give you peace of mind knowing that in the event of an emergency, all of your financial documents are organized in in one location. Again, you can access that free checklist at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/legacy.

Tim Ulbrich 00:51

Now before we jump into today’s episode, I have a hard truth for you to hear making a six figure income is not a financial plan. Yes, you’ve worked hard to get where you are today. Yes, you’re earning a good salary. But have you ever wondered, am I on track to retire? How do I prioritize and fund all these competing financial goals that I have? How do I plan financially for big upcoming life events? Whether that be moving, having a child, changing jobs, getting married or retiring? And why am I not as far along financially at this point in my career, as perhaps I thought I should be? The answer your six figure income is not a financial plan. As a pharmacist, you have an incredible tool in your toolbox your salary, but without a vision and a plan that good income will only go so far. That’s in part why we started Your Financial Pharmacists back in 2015. At YFP we support pharmacists at every stage of their career to take control of their finances reach their financial goals and build wealth through comprehensive fee only financial planning and tax planning. Our team of professionals including certified financial planners and a CPA, work with pharmacists all across the US and help our clients set their future selves up for success while living their rich life today. Ready to see how Your Financial Pharmacist can support you on your financial journey? The next step is to book a free discovery call with our team by visiting YFPplanning.com Again, that’s YFPplanning.com Alright, let’s jump in today’s episode.

Tim Ulbrich 02:18

Hi there, Tim Ulbrich here. Welcome to this week’s episode of the YFP Podcast. I’m flying solo this week to discuss legacy planning 101: how to build your legacy folder and why it’s important. Now this episode is going to be a brief one. But I hope you can walk away with a specific action item or to relate it to your own financial plan. Whether that be to create a legacy folder if you don’t already have one or if you do to make sure that you look at it and update that information if it’s been a while. So when it comes to why having a legacy folder is important. Getting organized with your financial records plays a significant role not necessary in terms of moving the needle on your net worth, but in making sure you and others have access to all the information that you need to make informed decisions. Think for a minute about all the various financial accounts, documents, records, insurance policies, tax returns that you have right, the list quickly grows to be one that is overwhelming. And the more you operate in your own system, the easier it is to navigate for you. But unfortunately harder for others to unravel, should they have to do so in the future. Right? Think of a situation where in the event of an emergency, you have this beautiful system you’ve created, you know where all your accounts are all your files, all your passwords, but unfortunately, others aren’t able to readily access that and to make sense of that information.

That’s where the legacy folder concept comes in. I actually first heard of this idea, it’s not my idea, I first heard of it when taking Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University class, this was probably 15 years ago through our local church. And I remember walking away thinking, wow, that is so obvious, yet so important. And something that Jess and I hadn’t yet done at that point in our financial plan. Now, what is the legacy folder? so essentially the idea of a legacy folder, whether it’s a physical copy and electronic copy, or combination of both, which is what we have, and I’ll share more information about that. It’s a place where you have all of your financial related documents. So in the event of an emergency, others will be able to quickly assess your financial situation and get access to all of the documents and accounts that pertain to your finances. We just went through updating this – Jess and I did in our own financial plan, shifting everything to an electronic version with the exception of a couple things that we keep in a safe at home, so that in the event of something happening to Jess or I or both of us, those caring for our boys along with our financial planning team at YFP readily have access to all the necessary information that they would need.

So when I think of the importance of this, you know, it really is peace of mind but there’s a secondary part that we often don’t think about, which is it forces you to get organized right? When you go through this process, and I’ll talk about the different sections of our own legacy folder. When you go through this process, you quickly might realize, wow, I’ve got some areas of the plan that I need to clean up, I need to gather some information. And this like many other parts of the financial plan, sure, it takes a little bit of time to get set up. But once you have it set up, right, we’re then in that update or maintenance mode. And again, don’t underestimate the peace of mind and the clarity that can come from having this information collected. So what’s included in the legacy folder? Well, I mentioned our checklist before and if you didn’t already download that make sure to download the YFP legacy folder checklist, you can access that again, at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/legacy that will give you a good guide.

There’s no one right answer to this. So I’m going to talk through what we have in our legacy folder. And you can see maybe some of that makes sense. Or maybe you have other documents and sections that you would want to include. So here’s how we have it organized in a combination of a Google Drive a shared drive, and a safe at home with the password the master password to our One Password, which is the the password account that we use the password management account that we use, I have the master key password in a safe at home, along with some hard copies of some documents like birth certificate, social security card, etc. Those things are in the safe, everything else is stored electronically and anything that’s in the safe as referenced as such in the electronic documents so so keep that in mind to combination of an electronic folder we used to have this all in a paper copy it was in a blue folder, we used to joke with our my parents and our in laws that hey, if anything ever happens to Jess or I – get the blue folder! For obvious reasons, having everything in a hardcopy wasn’t ideal in terms of updating that as well as making sure that the integrity of documents stay in place.

Okay, so section one is what we call important documents. Okay, so these are birth certificates for Jess, for me, for our four boys, these are our social security cards for us and the boys, this is our marriage certificate. These are our passports. And these components, we keep in a fireproof safe at home, obviously, because the hardcopy is important to have. So that’s section one important documents.

Section two is insurance policies, and information. So this is something that we have to update. Some of these we have to update annually, others not so much. So for example, long term disability policies or term life policies unless something changes with those policies, you know, we’re not updating those on a regular basis. But this includes things like auto insurance policies, homeowners insurance policies, or umbrella insurance policy, or health insurance policies, long term disability insurance policies, and our term life insurance policies. And we have a couple of different term life policies and long term disability policies. So all of that is included here in section number two. Now, what I have done typically in the electronic version, is I’ll list these out. And then I have the the actual policy hyperlink. So it can be easily reference to get to the actual policy, right, whether that’s a term life, disability, or another type of insurance policy. So that’s section two insurance policies and information.

Section three is estate planning documents. So we have an electronic copy on the Google Drive folder, the shared folder, and then we have a hard copy of these as well, because of the wet signature that’s needed on these and each state is different. Ours is a wet signature with a note notarized copy. So we have a hard copy in the safe at home. So these include our revocable trust agreements, this is our healthcare power of attorney, this is our living will, our last will and testament, et cetera, a lot of work to be done here. Now, if you’re hearing those terms, and thinking, Wow, maybe I need to get my estate planning documents in place. We’re gonna be talking more about that on the podcast, but I would reference you back to Episode 222. We’ll link to that in the show notes, when we brought on a couple of attorneys to talk about why estate planning is such an important part of the financial plan, as well as Episode 310, when Tim Baker and I talked about dusting off the estate plan, so this is not a you set it and you’re done.

Again, most of the work is upfront. Sure, there’s an investment of time and money to get these documents created. Again, the value is in the process of getting these created. And then you’ll have to update these periodically. So Jess and I often joke that our youngest son, Bennett, he wasn’t named individually in our documents when we created the so I guess that’s how it goes right when you’re the fourth son in the family. So he’s represented – it does address future children. But it’s just funny that he’s not called out individually. So we’ve got some updating to do there. So that’s section three – estate planning documents. And again, we keep a hardcopy in the safe. And then we have an electronic version of that available as well.

Section four is car titles. Now I’m not sure how valuable these are based on the current conditions of our minivan and our other vehicle, but, you know, calling these an asset would be a stretch but nonetheless, they have some value. Okay, so we have the car titles, readily available in section four so that someone could quickly sell or transfer the title of the car if need be. That’s section four car titles.

Section five is all documents related to our homeownership, okay, this is the deed on our home. This is the HELOC that we have open in the event, essentially, we have this as a backup emergency fund or if we need to tap into some of the equity in the home. So this is the HELOC documents. This is another copy of our homeowners insurance just to have it all in one place as well. So any important document related to the home, obviously, information about the mortgage, all of that is here in Section Five.

Section six is probably the biggest document I think, or close to the biggest section, which is a summary of all of our financial accounts. It’s our net worth tracking sheet, which I’ve talked about before on this show. And it’s all of our social security statements. Now I was just talking with a group of pharmacists last night that I was presenting to and I was talking about, hey, how many of you have pulled your Social Security statements to see your projected benefits, and I kind of got this impression that it was very few if any, right. So if you haven’t done that, it’s a good action step you’re going to do if you go to ssa.gov, to look at your Social Security statements, it’s got good information on there on projected benefits, and you can see your work credits. It’s pretty cool.

But this is a section where I have a table of contents that explains every account we have, right. So at Ally Bank, we have our high yield savings account, we have our checking account. Here’s where we have our Roth IRAs. Here’s where we have our 401 K’s. Here’s where we have a Roth 401 K. For every single financial account that we have, what is the account name? What is the institution? Where’s the link to that account? And what are we using that account for. And then as I mentioned before, we use One Password to store all of our password information and shared between Jess and I and the master key to that Password account is inside of our lock safe at home. So essentially, in the lock safe, you get to the One Password document through that you can then access all the individual financial accounts.

Now I know I’ve talked about this before, but I really believe in the value and the importance of not only having a good idea of the summary of all of your accounts. But this is a good place to also be tracking your overall net worth and your trajectory of your financial health. Right net worth is your assets what you own minus your liabilities, what you owe. Tom Stanley talks about the importance of tracking your net worth in the book, The Millionaire Next Door, and he talks about those that develop and build wealth over time they think differently, right? What he’s talking about there is that they realized that their income is a good tool. But their income is only a tool if they’re applying that to building their assets and paying down their liabilities, which ultimately is translating into their net worth.

So Jess, and I track our net worth on a monthly basis. It’s a very simple spreadsheet. If you want to see what that spreadsheet looks like I have that in the toolbox, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/toolbox along with a couple of the resources that I use, you can make a copy of that make it your own, very simple- every financial account we have, it’s the value of the asset. It’s the amount of liability assets minus liabilities we track that month over month, I think about that as the 20,000 foot view of kind of where we’re progressing financially, of course, the real work to be done is on a much more granular level. So that’s Section six, summary of financial accounts, net worth tracking sheet, and social security statements.

Section seven is our tax returns, this is our tax returns. On the personal side, this is a tax returns on the business side. So for us that would be the business, Your Financial Pharmacist as well as the business YFP Tax. And then for the property that we own, we have a separate LLC for the property as well. So for any business filings or extensions, or important communications, documentations. Obviously, it’s important to retain your tax records for everyone. But here to have those readily available, as well whether it’s needed in the event of an emergency, or if you’re working with a tax professional or someone you need to reference that information that’s good to have. So that’s section seven tax returns.

Section Eight is all information related to business records. So this is a summary of the business entities, I have a quick summary of what are the different entities and then of course, all of the legal documents, including the incorporation documents, the operating agreements, the buy/sell agreements, really important that you not only have these in place, but you have these readily available and accessible in the event of something happening. So any important document related to the business is there. And then as I mentioned, I kick off this section with a quick summary. So that in the event that someone needs to look at this, they can quickly understand what are the entities, what’s my ownership in the entities, and then what are the important documents within each entity that’s included in the legacy folder.

Section nine is just a miscellaneous section. So this could be utilities information or other information that is not easily fit into one of the other buckets in the first eight sections. Pretty simple. Right? So yeah, it takes time. And I think even recently, when I went through a pretty major update of this, I want to say it took me you know, three, four or five hours just to update documents, things that I had to scan to get electronically and making sure I had the right setup, creating some of the explanation in the summary documents. But not only as I mentioned, is it helpful for whoever is looking at this information? Hopefully that never needs to happen. But it’s also helpful for you as you go through this to identify like, oh, maybe there’s some gaps in here in the financial plan that we could use as an opportunity to make some adjustments or changes as you’re looking at goals for the next year.

So in terms of who has access to this, of course, Jess and I have access. Also, my in-laws have access to this who would in our state planning documents become the caregivers of our boys in the event of an emergency so important for them to have access and awareness of it, as well as our financial planning team at YFP right. So I know that in the tragic instance, if Jess and I were to get in an accident tomorrow, and something terrible would happen, I know that instantly my in-laws, who would be in charge of the boys and I know our financial planning team who would be helping them and making decisions, they have access to all of this information. Now, it doesn’t mean it’d be easy. There probably are still questions, maybe things that I’ve missed or haven’t thought about. But it’s a really, really good start again, gives us peace of mind knowing that we thought through this in great detail.

So in closing, right, simple yet effective, simple, yet effective. And that’s so true for so much of the financial plan. Sometimes we overthink this, we overcomplicate this, yeah, there’s work to be done. There’s professionals to be hired, certainly on the financial planning side, on the estate planning side, on the tax side, but the gathering of documents and information. This seems like a bigger mountain to climb than it actually is. And I think for obvious reasons, right? Who likes to think about, you know, some of these circumstances that might be tragic, where someone would need to access your information. It also might expose areas of the plan really like ah, I don’t really like the progress that we’ve made, we’ve got opportunities to improve. So for those reasons, it seems like a bigger mountain to climb. But I promise you that as you go through the process, it likely is easier than you think. And once you get organized with your information, you’re gonna be walking from that point of confidence, you’re gonna feel prepared in taking action on other parts of your financial plan. If you have questions on this episode, as always, feel free to reach out to us [email protected]. Again, make sure to download the YFP Legacy Folder checklist. As you follow along in this episode, you can get that at yourfinancialpharmacist.com /legacy. Thanks so much for joining this week. We’ll catch you next week. Have a good one.

Tim Ulbrich 17:17

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 350: Monetizing Your Clinical Expertise with Dr. Gauthier (YFP Classic)

Posted on March 15, 2024March 15, 2024 by YFP Media

Tim Gauthier, PharmD, creator of two learning platforms shares advice for pharmacists seeking to monetize their clinical expertise. Episode sponsored by APhA.

Episode Summary

This week on the YFP Podcast, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, welcomes antimicrobial stewardship pharmacist and fellow pharmacy entrepreneur, Tim Gauthier. Tim is the creator of IDStewarship.com and LearnAntibiotics.com. During the show, Tim and Tim discuss the genesis for creating these two learning platforms, how Tim has monetized his clinical experience to create passive streams of income, and how he manages to stay consistent in entrepreneurship while balancing a full-time pharmacy career and fulfilling personal life.

Listeners will hear about Tim’s pathway to pharmacy, what drew him into the profession, his passion for infectious disease pharmacy, and what he was hoping to accomplish with his learning platforms, IDStwardship.com and LearnAntibiotics.com. Tim walks us through the content and resources available on his websites and how he has monetized them while providing a wealth of free content to his community.

Making things passive and generating passive revenue streams is crucial to Tim, and he shares the tools and systems he has put in place to make that goal possible while balancing other obligations. Tim also discusses the incredible value of community and how he has built an active, engaged pharmacists community that contributes to the platforms in multiple ways. Tim closes with advice for pharmacists looking to follow a similar path in monetizing their clinical expertise.

About Today’s Guest

Timothy P. Gauthier, Pharm.D., BCPS, BCIDP is a pharmacist trained in infectious diseases and antimicrobial stewardship. He is a clinician, researcher, educator, and author. He is an advocate for antimicrobial stewardship and pharmacy education.

Dr. Gauthier graduated from Northeastern University’s School of Pharmacy (Boston, MA) in 2008. He then completed a Post-Graduate Year-1 Pharmacy Practice Residency and a Post-Graduate Year-2 Infectious Diseases Pharmacy Residency at Jackson Memorial Hospital (Miami, FL). Since finishing terminal training he has worked in academia (Nova Southeastern University, 2010-2015), clinical practice (Miami Veterans Affairs Healthcare System, 2015-2019), and a leadership role (Baptist Health South Florida, 2019-current), all focusing on advancing the fields of infectious diseases pharmacy and antimicrobial stewardship.

He holds certifications from the Board of Pharmacy Specialties for Pharmacotherapy and Infectious diseases. He has completed the Making A Difference in Infectious Diseases Pharmacotherapy Antimicrobial Stewardship Training Program.

He is the creator and editor-in-chief of www.IDstewardship.com, www.LearnAntibiotics.com, and the many @IDstewardship social media profiles. He co-hosts the #ASPchat each month on Twitter. He reaches thousands of people each day on the internet and on social media, where he aims share reliable and relevant information from the world of pharmacy and healthcare in general. IDstewardship.com alone has registered over 5,00,000 page views as of November 2022.

Key Points from the Episode

The genesis for creating two learning platforms (IDStewardship.com and LearnAntibiotics.com)
How Dr. Gauthier has monetized his clinical expertise to create passive revenue streams
How Dr. Gauthier manages and leverages his time to be able to consistently put out good content while working full-time and fulfilling his personal commitments and goals

Episode Highlights

“So it’s been a really rewarding experience, and collaborating with others from around the world has been something an area of success, I think, to be part of kind of the community that I’ve built. But I have a lot of flexibility, and that’s one thing that a lot of organizations don’t have.” – Tim Gauthier

“But that’s what drives me because I just really am totally obsessed with infectious diseases and microbial stewardship, and I think people need help learning. I needed a lot of help learning. I see where there’s benefit. I see where there’s value. There’s some monetary benefit that comes with it. It’s not anything that’s extreme by any means. But by having that win-win, it’s really been something that I think has been worth pursuing.” – Tim Gauthier

“I think that’s kind of the most important thing I’ve learned when it comes to telling people you have something to share with them, showing them that it’s meaningful, getting them excited about it, showing them that you’re a reliable person that has the know-how to get them the resource that they need to succeed. That is really critical. So that’s kind of some of the messaging there.” – Tim Gauthier

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRO]

[00:00:00] T. ULBRICH: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I had a chance to welcome antimicrobial stewardship pharmacist and fellow pharmacy entrepreneur, Tim Gauthier. Tim is the creator of IDStewardship.com and LearnAntibiotics.com. During the show, Tim and I talk about the genesis for creating these two learning platforms, how Tim has monetized his clinical expertise, and how he manages and leverages his time to be able to consistently put out good content while working full-time and fulfilling his personal commitments and goals.

Before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 250 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

All right, let’s jump into my interview with pharmacist and entrepreneur, Tim Gauthier.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:21] T. ULBRICH: Tim, welcome to the show.

[00:01:23] T. GAUTHIER: Hey, thanks for having me. I’m really excited to be here. How are you, Tim?

[00:01:26] T. ULBRICH: I’m well. I’m excited to dig into the work that you’re doing and for you to share with the YFP community how you’ve been monetizing your clinical expertise. But before we jump into that, I’d love to learn about your journey into pharmacy school, into the profession, where you went to school, when you graduated, and what drew you into the profession of pharmacy.

[00:01:44] T. GAUTHIER: Oh, yeah, of course. So I went to Northeastern University in Boston, Massachusetts and graduated in 2008, which feels like yesterday, but it’s been four years now. I got into pharmacy because I really was interested in microbiology. It turns out it’s easier to transfer into microbiology from pharmacy than pharmacy to microbiology. So I started in pharmacy. I ended up sticking with it. I never thought I’d go into infectious diseases pharmacy, just because it didn’t really cross my mind, and I didn’t know much about that early in my years.

Then later on, after PGY1, I had the opportunity to do a PGY2 in ID. Lo and behold, today, I’m an infectious diseases-obsessed pharmacist, who’s out there to defend antibiotics and promote clinical pharmacy. So here we are today.

[00:02:27] T. ULBRICH: So the Northeast, Tim, to Florida. This is the time of year in the Northeast. I grew up in the Buffalo area, where it’s beautiful. I always say six months out of the year, I’d live anywhere else. But the Midwest I’m at now or the Northeast. But the other six months, included this time of year, is absolutely gorgeous. So do you miss the seasons at all?

[00:02:49] T. GAUTHIER: I do miss the seasons, but the winter in Miami, Florida, where I live now, is just absolutely wonderful. I love the culture, as well as all the different types of food here. We do visit. Periodically, I go to Boston, Rhode Island, Connecticut and stuff. So it’s nice to be able to have a little bit of the best of both worlds.

[00:03:06] T. ULBRICH: Yeah, yeah. So we connected several years back, and I’ve been following your work for some time. I wanted to bring you out in the show, as I think what you’ve built is a really cool example of how pharmacists can monetize their clinical expertise. Certainly, as we’ll talk about, it’s not just about the money, but it’s being able to leverage the skills, the passion, the interest that you have to fill a gap in the market and to help people looking to learn more about a topic.

Here, we’re going to be talking about infectious disease, of course, and we have featured a variety of individuals on the podcasts over the past year or so. So I’m excited to share your journey as well. So let’s start with IDStewardship.com. When and why did you start it? Who was it for? What were you hoping to accomplish?

[00:03:49] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. So IDStewardship.com has been alive since about 2016, and I just had a friend who knew how to build websites, and I wanted to build something on my own, and he offered to help and put it together. Then I kind of took off from there, and I do pretty much everything on my own now. When I have a technical problem, he comes in? But why did I do it? There’s a couple of reasons.

One is I wanted to own my own space on the Internet, where I could have a voice, where I could publish things and not be restricted by a company or a manager or a group of people. Also, I just really enjoy your writing. So it gave me an opportunity to use a different part of my brain on the weekends and in the evening hours to share information that could be open access and someone else could benefit from. There’s a huge need in pharmacy. It has been for us to share our experiences and practical advice and insights so that others can learn and grow from it.

Also, just sharing information about antibiotics to make it easier for people to understand what drugs can I use for MRSA or Pseudomonas. But then some deeper things like what are five things to know about, I don’t know, Stenotrophomonas or Acinetobacter. So really, it’s just a myriad of content these days. If you’re a pharmacy professional, if you’re a healthcare professional, there’s some stuff on there that you’ll be interested in. If you’re just looking for fun stuff, there’s a drug name emoji that people really, really seem to enjoy.

[00:05:03] T. ULBRICH: So I’m trying to understand, Tim, the need you’re filling with this resource. So obviously, we all went through ID curriculums in our PharmD program. There are there are PGY2 residencies that focus on this fellowships who focus on this. Certainly, there are associations or interest groups within associations that focus on this. So what is different here that you’re trying to carve out to fill a need that you felt like either wasn’t being met for you or for other clinicians through those other learning pathways?

[00:05:32] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. I didn’t do very well in ID in pharmacy school, ironically, and I didn’t feel comfortable with it until I was like halfway through my PGY2. Practical resources that are available that are insightful and that consider the things that are beyond just the obvious, those were lacking. That really motivated me to try to put out things that were interesting. But also, like when you go to practice, these are five things you need to know about [inaudible 00:05:55] come across [inaudible 00:05:57]. I think that the community has received it really well, but I use social media to amplify that voice in different social media platforms.

So it’s been a really rewarding experience, and collaborating with others from around the world has been something an area of success, I think, to be part of kind of the community that I’ve built. But I have a lot of flexibility, and that’s one thing that a lot of organizations don’t have.

[00:06:21] T. ULBRICH: Yes, yeah. The digestible nature of the content strikes me. You’ve alluded to it a couple of times with examples you’ve given thus far in the show. It reminds me of one of the pharmacist we’ve had on this show, Kelley Carlstrom, on episode 217. Her business called KelleyCPharmD. She does an awesome job of this in the pharmacy space, specifically in oncology practice, making it accessible, no matter where you are. She trained at the Cleveland Clinic, an internationally recognized institution. Not everyone can go do your residency there, right? Has the time to commit, potentially has to travel to do that.

Her vision really is what about all the other hospitals? What about all the rural healthcare settings that are trying to treat patients and get their clinical staff up to speed? Or perhaps different practice models that don’t have a lineup of board certified residency trained pharmacists with multiple credentials? How can we expand the accessibility of this content? That’s one of things I love about what you’re doing here, and it really does strike me as being much more accessible than what is out there and some more traditional training programs or those that are offered by other groups.

It’s also written and presented in a way that is easy to understand. It’s relevant. It’s things that, Tim, you’re experiencing daily as a clinician yourself or encounters when you’re precepting residents or students. So you know the pain points. You know the questions, the problems, the points of confusion because you’re living them each day. I love the platform of what you built to address that.

So take us, Tim, through IDStewardship.com, in terms of the content you have, the resources you offer, and how you’ve been able to monetize it, right? You give out a lot of great content for free. But you also been able to monetize the site and enable to reap some of the fruit for all the work that you’re putting in, and you’ve put in over the last seven years. So talk to us about what you offer and provide on the site and how you’ve been able to monetize that.

[00:08:14] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. I offered way too much stuff for free, probably. But exactly like an altruistic passion project, it has to make some kind of money for my wife to allow me to continue it. So definitely, it’s a mixed bag. But the art of the IDStewardship.com offers articles, which are blog articles talking about the student experience, the pharmacist experience, clinical insights into common questions that we ask and that we see. Those are always written by content experts who have practical experience in the area, and I vet all that content to make sure it’s reliable, credible, and it goes beyond like the obvious content that you might find in a general article.

Also, there’s a study guide section, which is free and open access that has a picture of the drug, some of my key points, which I think you might find on your pharmacy school exams or maybe the BCPS or BCIDP exam and then links to some of the articles or some of the guidelines that are really relevant to that drug. I have a list of resources, which is pretty cool. If you’re looking for anything about antibiotics, that is a very robust list of resources. So like hepatitis C screening for Child-Pugh score. There’s a calculator in there. Just pick one random example. Or even if you’re looking for regulatory content from the Joint Commission, it’s linked there.

I also have the contributor section, where you can see who’s participated, and there’s really a lot of contributors to my website. So I do want to emphasize that that’s a really cool part of what I’ve been able to do, and it’s not just Tim doing it. It’s the community. But I kind of lead it because I’m kind of like the editor in chief of the content founder. The other part, though, which I really want to talk about for a second is LearnAntibiotics.com. So I’ve taken the opportunity to show people that, yes, these are articles that are available. But I’ve been able to produce content that you can use for learning. As a background in academia, I know that you have to go and be able to identify and define before you can analyze and assess and predict.

So I’ve built content specifically to help people through that learning process. If you’re looking to identify and define, I have cheat sheets on different disease states, on different drug classes. Those can help people to say, okay, like, “Pseudomonas drugs, these are my drugs.” But then I also make more fun content that has like a word search or a Jeopardy game. Those can be applied to the specific area. Then the practice tests I’ve built so that if you are able to pass that practice test, you can practice pretty competently as a pharmacist and know what questions to ask for infectious diseases and even some of them I’ll give you. Here’s the question, here’s the answer, and here’s the rationale for why each answer is right, and each answer is wrong. So it’s pretty robust.

[00:10:59] T. ULBRICH: I love that and I want to come back in a little bit to talk more about the LearnAntibiotics.com, in terms of what you’re trying to accomplish there. I think that’s going to give some folks some interesting ideas about as you’re considering monetizing your clinical expertise, there’s a lot of different ways to do that. I love what you’ve built there with that membership type of model.

Two words, Tim, that really stand out about what you’ve built and the vision that you have going forward are passion and community. You mentioned community just a moment ago, and I love that you’ve brought together a group of people that are, obviously, passionate about learning more about antimicrobial stewardship, learning more about infectious disease, bringing in contributors to the site, taking them from just a passive learner, to engaging them in the conversation, contributing to the community, and then passion. Your passion for this topic and furthering individuals’ knowledge and, obviously, the more our healthcare professionals know about this topic, the better they’re able to serve their patients.

I think this is so important for folks to hear, when you’re working on a side hustle or a business, especially when you’re working a full-time job, you have lots of other commitments, doing something that you’re passionate about, you mentioned that I probably got too much free content out there, right? It’s a passion project for you. Yes, you’re monetizing it. But that is going to really drive the energy and the enthusiasm to continue to build, especially in the early years, as someone who’s trying to get something off the ground.

Tim, as people go to IDStewardship.com and they see what you’ve built over several years, how much of this is what you have built and maintained? And how much of this is what you have other people that are helping you in building and maintaining the site?

[00:12:36] T. GAUTHIER: That’s a great question, and it’s definitely changed over time. When I started to look at developing a website, I talked to one of my friends who’s in website development, and he said, “Tim, we can do a website. But this is not a six-month thing, and this is not a one-year thing. This is like a 10-year journey, and you have to think of it very long-term.” So taking small bites has been one of the keys to success. As I’ve understood the workflows on developing different items, it’s gotten to be more efficient over time. I do produce actually the majority of the content on my own when it comes to the background work.

But the one thing that people send to the community of pharmacists, they’re willing to be a part of this journey. Them sending me articles and communicating with me and offering their assistance and trying to get their message out and share their passion, that really has enabled me to produce more content and put more information out there. But it is a tremendous amount of work. I do spend a lot of time between the hours of 8:00 PM and 11:00 PM working on this type of stuff. I think if you don’t have the passion for it, it’s probably going to be hard to do it long term.

But that’s what drives me because I just really am totally obsessed with infectious diseases and microbial stewardship, and I think people need help learning. I needed a lot of help learning. I see where there’s benefit. I see where there’s value. There’s some monetary benefit that comes with it. It’s not anything that’s extreme by any means. But by having that win-win, it’s really been something that I think has been worth pursuing.

One of the secrets that they say is not to do things alone, right? If you’re going to build a program like this, or you’re going to build a side business. I have mixed feelings about that. On one hand, I love the freedom that I have. I have total creative freedom to do whatever I want, whenever I want, with no one arguing with me. But at the same time, being in an echo chamber with yourself is not always a positive thing, and having a partner can push you in good directions. So I think partnerships are important, and you can choose to pursue things as a partnership or as an individual.

Something else I want to note that as I built out what I have online with IDStewardship is I’ve really purposely tried to make it about the brand and not about me. That kind of protects me in a way because the voice is the voice of the brand and not the voice of the individual. Also, people can engage within behind that brand and be a part of the community again, rather than it being part of what Tim is doing. So that was actually very strategic in the development.

[00:15:02] T. ULBRICH: Yeah, Tim. I think that’s a strategic move for the reason you mentioned also. I think about the passion and the mission of what you’re trying to do. Like there may be a day where maybe this isn’t only Tim who’s doing this. Or for whatever reason, you have others that are involved in the mission of advancing the education around IDStewardship and being able to have this information accessible, where folks can learn and perhaps be excited about learning it I think transcends just one person, right? So I think the contributors is another important aspect here of what you’ve highlighted.

[00:15:34] T. GAUTHIER: Like making things passive is also really important to me. I’ve learned that a lot during COVID because COVID has been absolutely horrible for all infectious diseases pharmacists and time management and when life was balanced. I mean, everybody in general. But I mean, trying to keep up with the literature and be engaged, on top of having this site and stuff going on, I need things to be able to put on pause, right? If I have no commitments that I’ve made, that’s not going to serve me well in the long term. So I really try to do things that are passive whenever possible and then only commit to like a couple of things at a time.

[00:16:05] T. ULBRICH: Yeah. One other thing I was thinking about, Tim, as I was looking at your site, that would be I think good advice for folks that are thinking about building their own, especially if they don’t have a huge budget upfront to be able to hire a web developer. If you’re building a content-based site, it could be blog articles that you’re adding, podcasts that you’re adding, e-resources that you’re adding checklists, guides, e-books, whatever, like you want to make sure you’re building it in a way that you understand and can add to it on a regular basis.

So even if you’re working with a developer or a contractor to help you, making sure you have enough understanding of the back end so that you’re not spending a whole lot of money long-term or frustrated that each time you’re trying to add a piece of content to the site, whether that’s a blog, podcast, an opt-in guide, whatever be the case, that you want to be able to have something that’s nimble, and you can add to over time.

[00:16:51] T. GAUTHIER: I’ve seen some people who built 20,000, 25,000-dollar websites, and they tend to be the people that follow a lot of podcasters in the space of like social media and engagement and business development. So I think if you’re committed to it, it can be worth the money. But you got to proceed with caution.

[00:17:10] T. ULBRICH: When I go to the site, Tim, and you mentioned already that LearnAantibiotics.com, www.learnantibiotics.com, we’ll link to that in the show notes, which takes you over to the IDStewardship site, that really is the membership portion of the site, where folks can be engaging with the community on an ongoing basis. Obviously, the goal there is that becomes some stability of recurring revenue that supports a lot of the time and effort and the free content that you’re putting out there.

Talk to us about – I think in content marketing, and I hesitate to use that word because I feel like you’re leading with such good passion and education that sometimes that word can sound dirty. But ultimately, the value that you’re providing and really good free rich education is naturally going to make people aware of what you’re doing on the membership side, which has a recurring revenue potential.

So what has your strategy or approach been to connect the free content with the membership model? Is it just that, hey, more eyeballs on the site and value that they’ll kind of find their way over there? Is it opt-ins that then point people to that resource? Tell us more about the strategy that you’ve employed to connect the free education people are viewing and receiving with some of the paid options you have.

[00:18:24] T. GAUTHIER: For sure. As you’re saying, this, I’m thinking about how I need to be more strategic. Sometimes, just go with the flow. That feels good. That feels good. Sometimes, I think of things, and I’m like, “Oh, I wish I had done that.” Even right now, there’s a list of things that if I had the time in my life to do, I would totally do.

But in general, what I try to do is capture a large audience and engage a large audience and do that through all these different ways that I think of, whether it’s something that’s like a clickable link on an Instagram story, or it’s a new blog post that I put out, or it’s putting a meme out there or just sharing like, “Hey, here’s like a part of my cheat sheet. If you’d like to see more of it like, shoot me your email address. I’ll shoot you a copy of this cheat sheet in full.” Then I have a way to communicate with those individuals. So if you’re just interested in the LearnAntibotics site or you’re interested in like all of IDStewardship, and you want to get our monthly newsletter, I’m able to reach you that way.

Another thing that’s important about having a mail listing is that if like tomorrow, Instagram decides to just delete my account, which they can’t, I have nothing. I’m left with nothing. Whereas since I have a Mailchimp account, they’re able to house my ability to communicate with my people. So in general, I provide something for free. I get the ability to contact these people. If you want to unsubscribe, I have no problem with that. Actually, when people unsubscribe, I don’t have to pay for you to be on my listserv anymore. I actually don’t mind at all. So if you don’t look at the newsletters we send out, feel free to unsubscribe. But if you want to subscribe, then we’d love to communicate with you.

I think that’s kind of the most important thing I’ve learned when it comes to telling people you have something to share with them, showing them that it’s meaningful, getting them excited about it, showing them that you’re a reliable person that has the know-how to get them the resource that they need to succeed. That is really critical. So that’s kind of some of the messaging there.

[00:20:18] T. ULBRICH: Yeah. I think one of the other things you’ve done really well, Tim, that I admire is you’re consistent in your content. We know and we’ll talk in a moment about how you balance time with other personal responsibilities. None of us are perfect and consistent in delivering the same amount of material, but you’ve been consistent over the years in terms of there’s not months and months of like quiet phases, and then you dump a bunch of content.

I think that’s so important for any – If we think about communities we like to be a part of or content we like to follow, it’s a consistent offering that we’re engaging with that content. So as you’re getting started, as someone’s getting started, I think thinking about what is – Once you decide on the medium, is it a blog, is it a podcast, whatever you’re looking at, is it something like a vlog, what is going to be your rhythm roughly that you’re going to be delivering content and making sure you’re showing up on a consistent basis with your audience and those that are finding value from what you’re doing?

[00:21:10] T. GAUTHIER: Along those lines, I think listening to your community is important. I had someone email me recently and say, “Hey, Tim. I wish you had a malaria cheat sheet because I’m studying for the BCIDP exam or the BCPS exam,” I forget which. I made one that weekend, and I really enjoyed it. I thought it was super interesting. I learned a bunch about malaria. So not only does it like help people advance their professional goals. It helps me remember things. I use my websites all the time to remember some of these nuances that are details that are just – You can’t remember everything.

[00:21:40] T. ULBRICH: That’s where I think the community piece comes in well too. You’ve got a good social media following. I’m sure people reach out to your questions all the time. You have students on rotation. You start to put some of those repeated questions into content buckets, right? I know you have a list of running content ideas. I’m sure you do. But once you hear a question more than one, two, or three times, it’s like, all right, maybe there’s something here in terms of a piece of content that we should be putting out.

Let’s talk about time and balancing doing this. You’ve certainly made a strong case that there’s a lot of passion behind it. But nonetheless, like you’ve got a family. You’re working a full-time job. You’re precepting residents, students. You have expectations at home and at work. Like what strategies have you employed time blocking, or how have you been able to really leverage time so that you can continue to put out content on a consistent basis while working full-time?

[00:22:31] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. Well, in the early days, and I was working at the Veterans Affairs Hospital in Miami, and they’re very strict in terms of their hours. So when you’re off duty, you’re off time. So everything that I did in the beginning was during off hours. That’s still the same today, but it taught me that you should only work on these things when you’re not on company resources, etc.

But then I didn’t have small children in the early days, which meant I have had a lot more time, especially in the evening areas of the day. More recently, I have a three-year-old and a seven-year-old, and the evening hours are much more strenuous. So now, since we’ve developed more of an awareness in the community about IDStewardship, I reach out to people. When I see an article posted on like Twitter about something new that I’m interested in, I’ll reach out to the person who authored the article and say, “Hey, I’d love to have you write five things to know about whatever the topic is.”

People almost always say yes because they want to share their passion. But it’s not just about me getting content. They now have a way to share that information. Sometimes, it’s the resident or the student or the second or third author that I work with. So they get an opportunity to share their voice. Coming up with strategies where I don’t have to do all the work has been one thing. Then also, like when you look at the development of like research and scholarly work in an academic position, you kind of look at it like a conveyor belt, and you want projects in all areas of your conveyor belt.

Some things are in – You’re designing. What do you think it might look like, and you have your concepts, your list of projects? Then other things are going into publication, going out on the newsletter. So you’re constantly just like feeding that conveyor belt and keeping it going in different areas, and that’s how you stay productive over a long period of time. It’s not about taking one thing and rushing it forward but just maintaining that conveyor belt. There might be different conveyor belts that go faster or slower, and some things might take two years to do.

But I always move forward with projects based upon what I think is like fun and interesting, and I don’t put pressure on people. I’m not out there saying, “Hey, if you don’t get back to me in two weeks, you’re not going to be allowed to do this.” If you don’t feel like doing this later because you have a problem, whatever. Don’t do it. If you want to circle back in two years, circle back into years, like no pressure.

[00:24:39] T. ULBRICH: Take us a little bit behind the scenes. I think one of the barriers that folks run into is they’re just trying to get started, and they go to someone’s site. They don’t necessarily have a picture of what are some of the tools and the systems and the processes that you have in place. You’ve mentioned a couple things already. Obviously, you’ve got the website infrastructure. You mentioned the email list. So like for us, we use WordPress for our website build. We use Bluehost for our domain hosting. We use ActiveCampaign for our email marketing. Then we have several other tools we use for project management and other things.

So what are some of the tools that you use or that you have found to be helpful as you’ve been working on IDStewardship?

[00:25:18] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah, for sure. I use WordPress, and then I use WPX Hosting. Then for like the memberships, it’s PMPro or Paid Memberships Pro. I’ve been pretty happy with those overall. The WordPress in particular, it’s just overall really easy to use. You add a plug in. It updates. It’s no big deal. WPX is really – Once a year, I pay a fee. Once in a while, I’ll have a bandwidth issue. So I’ve learned that I need to downsize the images that I use when I post, which I think a lot of people kind of learn that lesson.

I mean, that’s really the gist of it. Outside that, I use Mailchimp for my emails. I don’t really love how much they charge. I think they’re charging me like 250 a month for like 25,000 subscribers. So it’s great to have that many subscribers, but it doesn’t feel good paying $2,500 a year for that. But it also motivates me to put out content to use that tool that I’m paying for. So those are some of the key things that I’m using now.

Otherwise, I just maintained like Excel sheets for a while. In the beginning, when I didn’t have as much content, I would do a lineup, and I would remind myself of when I posted to Facebook about a specific blog post, and I would just keep cycling through them. So I was always posting like one thing a day on Facebook. But it’s gotten to the point that I can’t do that anymore. I’d need to hire like a social media manager or something like that. I think as you grow, you need to start considering how can you work with who can you bring in.

Another thing is as I’ve kind of met people in life through my way or through other venues, I work with them. So I just met a guy over the weekend that he prints things for a living, right? So there’s so much opportunity for us to collaborate with printing things. My audience is interested in topics of pharmacy and infectious diseases. So being entrepreneurial is one of the definitely keys to success here and also not being stuck in your ways, being able to evaluate things, and then accept feedback. If it’s not going well and someone tells you it’s not going well, take that advice and see how you can make it better and ask them, “Hey, how can I make this better?”

[00:27:13] T. ULBRICH: Yes, great advice, Tim. I think for people that are listening, and they hear 25,000 people on an email list and again not getting paralyzed from Jump Street. I think I love what you shared of it was a spreadsheet to begin with, right? I’ve shared before on this podcast that the first 100 subscribers on our email list were a combination of text messages and Facebook messages and LinkedIn posts that I had, and that eventually got added to an email software. Eventually, we added automations. Eventually, we added opt-in funnels and all those things, project management, social media management tools, things like that. But just getting started, you can do a lot of that manually. Get some of the things off the ground. Then as you get momentum, you can build out the systems and the processes that will help with efficiencies.

Tim, if someone is listening and they are on the very front end of this, so let’s just pick another specialty that’s out there, and they’re thinking, “I’d love to build something in this domain, similar to what I see Tim doing with IDStewardship, Kelley doing with oncology. I also think about what Jimmy Pruitt’s doing with acute care out there in pharmacy,” like what advice would you have with them at the very beginning of their journey? If you think back to where you were when you started in 2015, like now looking back seven years later, like what piece of advice would you have to share with them as they get started on this journey?

[00:28:33] T. GAUTHIER: Well, I mean, first of all, not just because I – If I say something, it doesn’t mean it’s necessarily true. So it’s just my opinion on some of this. So feel free to disagree. But one thing I feel is that, especially when it comes to social media, people go on Twitter, on TikTok, on Facebook because they’re looking for things for themselves. So if you’re not putting out things that are going to be interesting to your audience, then your audience is not going to grow like they should.

So everything that you do, no matter what you’re doing, should be aligned with why your audience is going to that area, and that’s going to help to get them to like it, get them to share it, which is very, very difficult in the pharmacy profession. We’re like 90% passive users. We love to learn.

[00:29:11] T. ULBRICH: That’s right.

[00:29:13] T. GAUTHIER: I’ll post something on Facebook, man, and it’s like five likes. But then I’ll see that I got 250 link clicks. So it’s very interesting. From an outside, you might look at my Facebook page or something and say, “Oh, I got a couple of likes or clicks,” and you can’t see the clicks, but you’ll only see a couple of likes, and they got lots of clicks. So it’s kind of one thing that’s important, I think, as you’re starting off.

Another thing about starting off would probably be considered like long-term how you’re going to grow, and you’re talking about the design of your product. I think that core message and that core what am I doing here is really important. Over time, is that going to change? Because if it’s focused on something that’s relevant now like COVID, for example, or moneypox, maybe that’s not relevant in two years from now.

[00:29:59] T. ULBRICH: It’s pretty cool. Yep, absolutely. That’s great stuff, Tim. I’m excited for our listeners, if they’re not already aware to follow the journey, and I hope they’ll opt in your newsletter. Where is the best place that folks can go to follow you and the journey and the work that you’re doing?

[00:30:16] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. I mean, definitely IDStewardship.com, and you can sign up for our newsletter there or just follow along on Instagram or our Facebook or goods areas. Twitter, you can find me there as well. It’s a little bit more focused on infectious diseases and as a whole and staying up with the literature on Twitter. So either of those but the newsletters are really a good place to start.

[00:30:37] T. ULBRICH: Awesome. Thanks, Tim. Appreciate you taking time to come on the show.

[00:30:39] T. GAUTHIER: Oh, it was my pleasure. We’ve worked together for so long over the years. It’s really a wonderful opportunity for me, and I appreciate your time.

[00:30:46] T. ULBRICH: Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[00:30:47] T. ULBRICH: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you, again, for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 349: Your Top 3 Questions Answered by a CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™

Posted on March 7, 2024March 6, 2024 by YFP Media

YFP’s Tim Baker addresses key questions from the community, covering retirement savings, cost of living, and the importance of the nest egg calculation.

Episode Summary

On this week’s episode of the YFP Podcast, host Tim Ulbrich is joined by YFP Co-Founder and Certified Financial Planner, Tim Baker, to dive into some of the most common questions from the YFP community. He covers topics ranging from debt repayment to investing and retirement planning in three key questions:

How much do I need to save in order to retire? How do I determine what is enough?
The intricacies of cost of living and understanding the income you’ll have in retirement.
Why the nest egg calculation is crucial in financial planning.

Our discussion also delves into the pros and cons of paying off low-interest debt, such as student and auto loans, versus investing. Tim Baker also shares the strategies for prioritizing debt repayment, retirement savings, and saving for a house down payment.

In a particularly insightful segment, Tim and Tim tackle a question from a listener with a $200,000 student loan balance, where Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) isn’t an option. Tim Baker shares his perspective on weighing the decision between paying off the loans and pursuing forgiveness over 20-25 years, including the potential tax implications.

Join us as we navigate the complexities of financial planning and empower you to make informed decisions for a secure financial future.

About Today’s Guest

Tim Baker is the Co-Founder and Director of Financial Planning at Your Financial Pharmacist. Founded in 2015, YFP is a fee-only financial planning firm and connects with the YFP community of 12,000+ pharmacy professionals via the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast podcast, blog, website resources and speaking engagements.

Tim attended the United States Military Academy majoring in International Relations and branching Armor. After his military career, he worked as a logistician with a major retailer and a construction company. After much deliberation, Tim decided to make a pivot in his career and joined a small independent financial planning firm in 2012. In 2016, he launched his own financial planning firm Script Financial and in 2019 merged with Your Financial Pharmacist. Tim now lives in Columbus, Ohio with his wife (Shay), two kids (Olivia and Liam), and dog (Benji).

Key Points from the Episode

Debt repayment, investing, and retirement planning.
Retirement savings and investment strategies.
Retirement planning and nest egg calculation.
Retirement planning and the “Nest Egg Exercise” to connect long-term goals with current actions.
Prioritizing debt and investing strategies.
Prioritizing debt payoff vs. investing for financial freedom.
Financial planning and prioritizing goals.
Managing $200,000 in student loans without PSLF.
Student loan debt and financial planning.

Episode Highlights

“I think what, what sometimes happens, Tim, is that we try, we try to do a lot. We try to do a little bit of a lot of things versus a lot of like one or two things. Yeah. So I think working with a planner to help you prioritize is going to be really important.” – Tim Baker

“So I think the best thing, and we we’ve done this a lot, and when we speak, Tim, the best I think way to determine if we’re on track to retire is to do a nest egg nest egg calculation” – Tim Baker

“But I do think that that push and pull between today and tomorrow is really important. So let’s focus on that trip to wherever; let’s focus on the down payment for a real estate property or whatever that is, like those things, I think, have to be part of the plan as well.” – Tim Baker

“The cons of paying off debt, I think, is the opportunity costs of, like, what you might miss in terms of if you were to invest that, especially if the interest rates are really low, and then just kind of just overall money,less money for investments. The pros, I think, of investing, is potentially higher returns, although not guaranteed, compounding growth, potential tax benefits, if you’re putting in things like 401Ks and IRAs.” – Tim Baker

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode 272 – How Much is Enough
YFP Planning – www.yfpplanning.com
YFP+ – yourfinancialpharmacist.com/membership
Subscribe to the YFP Newsletter
YFP Open House on March 14, 2024 at 8:30pm EST – yourfinancialpharmacist.com/openhouse
YFP Disclaimer
Tim Ulbrich on LinkedIn
Tim Baker on LinkedIn

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, YFP Co-Founder, Director of Financial Planning and Certified Financial Planner Tim Baker joins me to answer your top three financial questions. During the show we tackle pros and cons of paying off low interest rate debt versus investing strategies to optimize student loan repayment for those not pursuing Public Service Loan Forgiveness and how to determine how much one needs to save for retirement. Before we jump into the show, I want to make sure that you’re aware of our next YFP Open House that I’m hosting on Thursday, March 14 at 8:30pm. Eastern. If you’re wondering how working one-on-one with a financial planner can help you achieve your financial goals, the best place to begin is by signing up for our open house. You can do so by visiting YourFinancialPharmacist.com/openhouse.

During this open house, we’ll help you gain clarity on your vision for living a rich life and how the financial plan can become the engine for achieving that vision. We’ll also help you determine how much is enough when it comes to retirement planning whether or not you’re on track. I’ll be taking the group through nest egg calculation. You can learn about the nuts and bolts of hiring a financial planner including what to look for different types of planners that are available and why fee-only planning matters.

And finally, we’ll cover an overview of YFP services, including our financial planning, and tax and accounting services. Make sure to sign up to attend live. We won’t be recording this workshop. For those that attend, they’ll receive an interactive workbook as well as a free resource: Where Should My Next Dollar Go? that will help you assess your overall financial well being and provide clarity on how to efficiently deploy cash, avoid overspending and prioritize various goals. Again, you can register for this Open House on Thursday, March 14 at 8:30pm Eastern by visiting YourFinancialPharmacist.com/openhouse. Alright, let’s jump into today’s episode.

Tim Ulbrich 02:04

Hi there, Tim Ulbrich here. Welcome to this week’s episode of the YFP Podcast. I’m excited to welcome Tim Baker back to the mic as we’re gonna put him on the hot seat with some rapid fire Q&A with some of those common questions that we get from our community, including those around debt repayment, investment, and retirement planning. Hey, Tim, it’s been a while since we’ve had you on the show, what’s new, what’s exciting?

Tim Baker 02:24

What’s new? We’re in the throes of tax season. So I’m, we’re busy there. I’m talking to a lot of potential clients coming on board. Baby number three is about a month away, Tim. So we’re preparing for that. I joke we have about 1000 projects that we have to complete before the baby gets here. So you know, kind of maneuver in my my wife’s lifts list here. So but yeah, all good. Thanks. No complaints.

Tim Ulbrich 02:55

Well, we’re excited to jump into these questions. I know it’s a busy season for you, busy season here for YFP as you mentioned in the midst of tax season. And, you know, we’ve been, we’ll talk at the end of this episode about our YFP Plus community, our new community that we’ve been offering now for a few months. And it’s been really exciting to see the questions and the engagement that that group has, and one another jumping in answering those questions. And we wanted to pull three of the most common questions that we get, whether it’s inside of that community, whether it’s, Tim, questions that we get when we’re speaking that come up on repeat. And so they may be variations of these, but you know, common questions around things like hey, how much do I need to have saved for retirement? What are the pros and cons of paying off debt versus investing? That’s probably the most common question that we get. And, you know, what should I do with my student loans? And how can I best optimize the repayment strategy? So let’s jump into these one by one. Tim, the first question that we have is a big one, but how much do I need to save in order to retire? How much is enough? And how do I begin to determine what that number is?

Tim Baker 03:57

Yeah, so I mean, it depends. Just gotta get that out of the way, right. I mean, this is such a multivariable thing. I think it’s just really hard to determine, you know, without a, you know, pretty deep level analysis to be honest Tim, you know, I know, you know, I’ll talk through some rules of thumb here and things like that. But, you know, like I was talking to a couple last night, and, you know, I think the the wife, the pharmacist was, like, you know, I kind of want the same level of comfort in retirement that I have today in terms of like my standard of living and the husband, the spouse, was like, I could live in a tent and be completely content. You know, so like, so like, that’s, that’s a big thing. You know, like if, if what your need is in retirement, you know, you could have enough saved today, Tim, like it’s it really don’t know. So the variables there, some of the variables could be you know, the standard of living the time in retirement. There’s a lot of clients that we work with that like, will say like, Hey, like I don’t know how long I’m going to be around because of my family history. So we, you know, we put that in, in in play, taxes, inflation unexpected, you know, expenses, a lot of that can be medical, even the inability to work so that, you know, a lot of people, when they’re when they’re doing this calculus, they’ll say, Oh, I’ll work till 70. Or I’ll work part time. And the stats say that 40% of the people out there are going to going to stop working earlier than they think that they do. So you know, what I always do, there’s, there’s lots of fancy ways to kind of calculate this. And you know, if you’ve ever heard of Monte Carlo analysis, this is where we, we simulate portfolio returns 1000s of simulations and say, with, you know, X percent probability of success, we typically want, anywhere from 70 to 80% probability of success, you might say, Tim, why not 100%. Typically, if we’re, if we’re lower than, you know, 70%, we’re going to adjust the plan accordingly, in real time to get it to the end of that.

So I think the best thing that and we we’ve done this a lot, and when we speak, Tim, the best I think way to determine if we’re on track to retire is to do a nest egg nest egg calculation. And this was really born out of, Tim, like, back in the day, when I started advising people on their on their, you know, retirement stuff. What I learned from a mentor is we would say, hey, based on your based on these assumptions, you need $3.5 million to retire. And then we would just move on to the next thing. And I would see the, the look in people’s eyes were like, that number just didn’t hit the mark at all, like it was just like, it was kind of equated to like student loans where it’s just like Monopoly money, that doesn’t make any sense to me at all. So what I started to do is I would take that number, and then I would kind of use another time value of money calculation to discount it back to a number. So if you’re the client, Tim, a number for Tim in 2024, that actually is digestible to you, that’s palatable to you that says, okay, like that makes sense. And typically, what we’re doing is that we’re comparing, you know, what you’re putting into your 401 K, your IRAs, what you already have, you know what your allocation is, so we can kind of make some assumptions on performance returns, how long you’re going to work. And then we can say, hey, you’re on track by this amount of dollars per month, or you’re off track by this amount of dollars per month. And obviously, that that hill gets steeper, if we’re off track, the closer that we get to our target. So, to me that that’s a huge thing to actually connect the dots to, like when I ask people like, are they on track? A lot of people say I have no idea or they’ll say, like, I’m using a calculator, that typically is not a great indicator of where they’re at. So, but I think a lot of this goes back to kind of, you know, move the answer forward is like, you know, what do you need, you know. A lot of the estimates, you know, a lot of the estimates will say, you know, a lot of retirement planners will say, hey, you need 70 to 80% of your pre-retirement income in retirement. And that’s typically the reason for that. It’s like, you’re typically saving 20, 30% of your income, pre retirement, like so leading up to the years of retirement. And you’re not doing that in retirement. So, but a lot of that, Tim, also misses the mark, right? Because it’s like, alright, well, if I’m, like, 20-30 years from retirement, what does that even mean to me? Right. But if you take, you know, I did a kind of a, an example here, if you’re making $125,000 today, and you have a 30 year career ahead of you, and you get a 3% cost of living adjustment every year, in 30 years, that equals $303,400.00. Three or three 400.

Tim Ulbrich 08:55

Almost hard to believe, right? When you when you put the numbers on that.

Tim Baker 08:58

Yep, But then if you look back 30 years, like look back at, like, what a total cost of like a house was or like, what the… you know what I mean? Like, so you have to, you know, it’s perspective, right? So, so 30% of that $303 is about $212. So, essentially, what you need is $212 for 30 straight years, so every year $212. And then we had to, you know, account for inflation and things like that.

Tim Ulbrich 09:22

$212,000?

Tim Baker 09:24

$212,000. Right. So you need a portfolio. So if you just do it in simple terms to earn 12 times 30 Like, that’s kind of like, that’s a very, you know, linear way to look at it. But then you have to, you know, factor in things, you know, like variable expenses and things like that. So, what a lot of people will point to which, I don’t love it, because I think it can steer people wrong, but I think at least gets a like a foundation of where to think about this is the 4% rule. So the 4% rule is, you can withdrawal 4% of your savings in the first year retirement adjusted for inflation ever year thereafter, to ensure that your saving, you have enough saved for 30 years. So the way to kind of backwards plan to that is if you multiply your annual retirement expenses, so let’s say you need 40, that let’s say you need $60,000 per year, let’s say 20,000 of that comes from Social Security, then we need $40,000. $40,000 times 25 years, so we’re just doing the 4% inverted is a million dollars, or a million dollars times, you know, point 0.44% is that $40,000. So that’s a way to look at it. But again, like, I don’t know, if that does a great job of, you know, planning for longevity, you know, there’s a lot of there’s a lot of errors in that, you know, in that assumption, but I think it’s a good place to start thinking about this. So, I mean, it’s a, it’s a really big question that has a lot of, you know, at anytime that you look at something over, you know, 2030 years, I guess, if you’re closer to this, maybe maybe the questions a little bit easier to answer, but, you know, looking at expenses, you know, looking at budget, the budget never goes away, you know, people are like ugh budget, you know, scenario analysis, I think all of those things kind of play into this.

Tim Ulbrich 11:10

Again, this is why I love as you mentioned, the the nest egg exercise, you can see the connections that people start to make in that exercise. Now, of course, especially if we’re looking over a long horizon, right, 20-30 years out, or even if it’s 10 years out, like things are going to change, this is not a one and done, you know, type of thing. We’ve got to be looking at it on a regular basis. But when you’re able to take people from that overwhelming shock number, right, 3 million, 4 million, 5 million to as you said, Hey, here’s what we need to be doing this year and actually, this month. Like this is what we need to be doing based on what we have saved, based on a set of assumptions that we obviously have to think through and think about risk tolerance, capacity, all those kinds of things, based on what we choose to assume or not with Social Security, you know, based on what you’re getting through your employer, all these things are going to feed into where we at currently, and what do we need to be doing per month. And, you know, I did this recently, during an Open House that we did in February, I’ll be doing it again, in our next open house coming up on on March 14, again, you can register for that yourfinancialpharmacist.com/openhouse.

And what’s fascinating about that is I can see this come to life, when people start to just see how these numbers are calculated and see the assumptions in place. Because, again, we’re actually making it mean something today, right? When we look at a number per month, we can start to see how that does or doesn’t fit in with the budget, we might not like that number. But we can start to actually work with that. And in fact, sometimes we find out through this exercise that people are over saving, you know, and there’s a conversation to be had there about, hey, how do we feel about it? What other goals are happening? And might we shift around, you know, different priorities? And then you can toggle some of these factors like, Hey, I said, I wanted to retire at 67. But what happens if it’s 62? Or 58? Or, you know, hey, I’d like the work that I’m doing, and I don’t really see myself going from full time did nothing for 30 years. What if I’m working part time and having an income? And these changed things significantly when you look at these calculations.

Tim Baker 13:08

Yeah, I mean, if I do say so myself, I think it’s a great tool. I think it was born out of like the misconnection between that big number in the future and what we’re doing today. And I think to your point, like being able to, like toggle those levers and pull those levers, you know, whether it’s, you know, working longer working less, you know, dialing back things, you know, down up things like I think it’s really cool to see. And to your point, yeah, we’ve had a lot of clients that have definitely, you know, we talk about, you know, living a wealthy life today and will live in a wealthy life tomorrow. Sometimes the calculus shows that they’re really focused on living a wealthy life tomorrow, in spite of today, meaning like, you know, I think it’s rare for a financial planner to say like, Hey, you’re saving too much for retirement. But I do think that that push and pull between today and tomorrow is really important. So like, let’s focus on that trip to wherever let’s focus on you know, that, you know, down payment for a real estate property or whatever that is, like the like those things, I think, have to be part of the, of the plan as well. So yeah, it’s a great question to ask. It’s just really hard to, to to answer without, you know, a lot of detail. A lot of, you know, what’s the balance sheet look like? What are the goals and, you know, go on from there.

Tim Ulbrich 13:14

It is.

Tim Ulbrich 14:34

If listeners want to dig deeper on this topic, first love to have you join us at the Open House. Second, we’ve covered this as a stand alone topic on the episode on the podcast before Episode 272. Tim and I talked about how much is enough and how do you determine that. We’ll link to that to the show notes. Make sure to check out that episode as well. Our second question we have as I mentioned before, probably the most common question that I get when I’m presenting is Hey, what are the pros and cons of paying off low interest debt, such as a student loan or auto loan versus investing. Furthermore, how do you think about prioritizing strategies for paying down debt, saving for retirement and saving for a house down payment? Tim, I’ll add to this before you jump in here that this is a really common question that we see, especially among, you know, those within that first 10 years of graduation, right. They’ve got a lot of things that are coming at them. I’ve got, you know, a bunch of student loans, I’m looking at buying a home, you’re telling me that I should be investing in saving for the future? I need an emergency fund. How do I begin to prioritize and weigh all these things? And, again, before you say, it depends, like, I think this is an example question where the value of planning is so important, because we got to get all those things out of our head on the paper, so we can start to plan. So what are your thoughts here?

Tim Baker 15:46

Yeah, I mean, I always look at debt as like a spectrum. I think you have, you know, good debt, which, you know, I would I would categorize as, like a mortgage. I would still put student loan debt in there, because, you know, a mortgage is a, you know, typically appreciating an asset that you can, that you’re living in, raise a family. Student loans, typically, you know, the price of doing business to become a pharmacist, you know, higher levels of of income, you know, post degree. But then as you go like, like auto loans, again, again, these are used assets that are typically depreciating. You’re typically paying higher interest than you have in the past, but it serves a function of like getting you to work. But then as you go, it might be things like, debt for furniture or other types of personal loans. And then credit card debt is typically at that, you know, other end of the spectrum of bad debt, where it’s, you know, you’re typically, this is the purchase of of wants not necessarily needs, or, you know, it’s there because of a lack of an emergency fund or kind of planning, planning for those unexpected things. So, you know, I think like, where you sit, where you draw the line between good debt and bad debt, it’s going to different be different for everybody. You know, typically, it’s, it’s the car to the right is good debt. So car, student loans, mortgages, are okay. And then everything for the left is not. Some people will put cars like a bad debt. So I think it just depends on what your again, what your goals are, what your what your aspect of debt. You know, I was asked recently by a prospective client about like, you know, hey, was watching something that Dave Ramsey said about paying off, you know, a mortgage that’s less than 3%. And he’s very, paints with a broad brush and said, like, you know, really any debt, you’re kind of a slave to the master is kind of how he describes it. And I think like, there’s a psychological thing of this, like, if you if you feel like that debt, is preventing you to be financially free, that I would treat that differently than something else, you know, like, I have no qualms about sitting on my two and a half percent mortgage for 30 years, I just don’t. So I think if we look at this, like the pros of paying off debt, versus invest in, you know, the paying off debt, it’s a guaranteed return, right? So if your debt is 6%, that’s, you know, you’re not necessarily gonna get that in the market consistently. So it’s a guaranteed return. I think it reduces financial stress. So eliminating debt can reduce stress and kind of simplify your finances. You do, I think, if you are completely debt free, I think you can you operate differently, you think you look at the world a little bit differently than if you have, you know, multiple liabilities. That’s kind of, you know, weighing on you and we see this with student loans, Tim, right. Like, you know, I feel suffocated, because I have this $200,000 in debt. The cons of paying off debt, I think, is the opportunity costs of like, what you might miss in terms of like, if you were to invest that, you know, especially if the interest rates are really low, and then just kind of just overall money, you know, less money for investments. The pros, I think of investing is potentially higher returns, although not guaranteed, compounding growth, potential tax benefits, if you’re putting in things like 401Ks and IRAs, The cons are again, market risk, there’s no guarantee. And, you know, complexity, like you know, if you’re just paying off debt, you know, a lot of people will make investing more interesting or sexier than it needs to be I look at as an as an investment as it should be super boring, but not everyone does that. A lot of people don’t do that. So that’s, that’s kind of my, there is no right or wrong answer. I kind of have my own biases.

When I’m working with a client, I’ll look at their risk tolerance. I’ll look at what their goals are. I’ll look at like, what are they saying to me? If they’re saying things like, this debt keeps me up at night, I’m gonna treat that very differently than if someone’s like, yeah, like it’s whatever. But there is a mathematical component to that as well. In terms of prioritize and financial strategies or just get the financial, like, what do we do, you know, for paying down debt versus saving, you know, I was speaking to, you know, a prospective client the other day, and they have real estate, they have some investments, they have a brokerage account, no emergency fund. So like, we’re we’re doing steps, six, seven, and eight, before we’re doing step one, really. So building an emergency fund, having a high yield savings account with, you know, those non-discretionary, you think expensives, just stowed away. Super important. That’s, that’s a foundational thing. I think from there, it’s also like the consumer debt, so like credit cards, you know, furniture debt, whatever that looks like, I think is really important, because it’s typically higher nterest that you want to get get out from underneath.

I would also put taken advantage of the employer match up there, like, you know, most of the time, I think that is really, really important to get the free money. But still see people that don’t take advantage of that. And then I think looking at higher interest debt, paying that off. So, you know, maybe that is a car, you know, we’re seeing, you know, car rates, I think you you mentioned it in YFP plus community, just what those rate rates are. Shocking, you know, they’re high. So I assume, yeah, I would I, I would pay that off before I would go into the market. So I think that that to me, and again, like the one thing that the questioner asked, you know, it’s like, what about saving for retirement, again, I kind of look at, get the match. And then I look at it as that as you are navigating these other things to me, in the back of your mind, it should be a race to 10%. Like, get the match, which may be 5%. But then you really want to get to 10% as quickly as possible, and then assess from there. And then I think, like, to me saving for a house down payment. That’s a really tough one to prioritize, Tim, because oftentimes with this one, like, like you’re, you, you rationalize it, you know, you rationalize your decision. So like, it’s a super emotional decision, once you start going down the path of looking at houses, being a Zillow warrior, actually go into houses, like those timelines get cut overnight. And I always joke, like, I was talking to a prospective client. And they were like, Yeah, I want to buy a house in the next two or three years. And I talked to them two weeks later, and they were under contract. So to me, like, if that’s important for you, I would put that to the top, you know, put that at the top of the list, you know, and prioritize that. I think what, what sometimes happens, Tim, is that we try, we try to do a lot. We try to do a little bit of a lot of things versus a lot of like one or two things. Yeah. So I think working with a planner to help you prioritize is going to be really important. And it’s hard to do. Sometimes it’s hard to do that when you’re stuck inside your own head, or even with like a spouse. So sometimes that you know that that third party objective viewpoint to help you guide guide that conversation, I think is important. But again, there’s really no right or wrong answer here. It’s just tailoring to like when I say it depends. What I mean by that is, you know, it depends on what your balance sheet are, like, what your balance sheet looks like, and what your goals are. And unfortunately, you can’t like look at a neighbor or a colleague, because like you’re going to be different. You are a unique snowflake. So you know, your your experience, your life experience, your your finances are going to be different than than everybody else’s. And I think, you know, developing a plan that navigates that is super important.

Tim Ulbrich 22:39

Yeah, Tim, the visual that comes to mind, as you’re talking and I alluded to this, when I asked the question is, you know, we so often live with all of these competing priorities that are swirling in our minds, right? Guilty as charged. And it really is a step that often is hard work. But it’s really important because we’re a third party can be so helpful for us to kind of get out of our own way and make sure we’re looking at all the factors, making sure we’re not thinking of things in a silo. But it’s like, we got to put all the puzzle pieces out, we got to get them out of the box. So we can start to figure out how they actually come together. And then to implement the plan, looking at our cash flow, looking at our goals and things to actually begin to execute on that. But we tend to go into execution mode, without really considering all the pieces and parts and how they impact one another. And this sounds easy, but it’s not right. You know, in this question, you know, we’re thinking about paying down debt, you know, and that could be more than one type of debt. We’re thinking about, hey, when might we buy a home we think about saving for retirement, when you look at the percentage of take home pay that these things will take up it is huge. These are these are big decisions. And we’re not even talking about other types of goals, right vacation, travel, what else is going on the financial plan, so I feel like there’s such an important step here of, before you start running in any one direction. Hey, let’s get on with This down on the paper. You know, you did this for Jess and I back in the day, like, let’s create a prioritized list of these. What’s the target? What’s the goal? How much do we need? What priority, how much per month? And then we start to actually create the buckets and the mechanism and the thing to actually make these come to life. And when you’re doing that, and you’re automating that, I can’t even adequately describe the feelings that come when you know that that system is in place working for you.

Tim Baker 25:26

Yeah and I think like to go back to the first question, like, we’ve had conversations with clients that like, you know, they’re saving so much for retirement, and they’re like, we can actually do a little bit less than get into the house sooner. Right. So like, like, if you think about it, like, my, my Pop Pop back in the day, like he had a pension, there was no such thing as 401k is like, all of these other things that have like, like, made financial, you know, even my parents, like, it’s very different. Now, you go into the workforce, and you have 30,000 things that are like, like, vying for your attention and your your dollars. And it’s just different than what it was before. And now, like the onus, especially on retirement is up to you versus like, your employer. But it’s also like, a lot of the advice that that you’re getting is from, like, the old generation of like, hey, buy a house, make sure you’re saving for it, and those are all good things. But the world is different now. And I’m not saying that, like, that’s, that’s bad, that’s bad advice. But like, you got to kind of have to, like, you know, walk to your own tune, so to speak. And I think like, a lot of people get get anxiety because they’re like, I’m not like, I’m not doing enough here. I’m not doing enough here. And, you know, I think like, if you’re doing a plan, you’re doing enough, right.

And I think part of the part of the great thing about plan is that you are slowing down in the day to day of like busy living and objectively looking at your situation and reflecting, self reflecting or forcing to reflect of like, Hey, are we on the track that we’re supposed to be on. And also to like, celebrate the wins, like, you know, when we start with a client, you know, the the first two meetings that we go through is what we call Get Organized, where we’re building out a nice clean balance sheet of all the assets that we own, minus all the liabilities that we owe. That’s our first data points. Think of that as like the before picture. And then the second meeting is what we call Script Your Plan is all about, okay, now that we know where we’re at, where are we going, so let’s talk about you want to buy a house, you want to have a family, you want to be able to retire at this age, you want to be able to, you know, build your real estate empire, you want to be able to do XY and Z. And once we have those two foundational thing in place, the answer “it depends,” then transforms to this is what I think you should do because I know what your balance sheet looks like, I know what your goals are. And this is the you know, the the objective advice that we think is in your best interest. So like, that’s going to be different for everyone. And I think like that, you know, tracking that from data point one to three, you know, two years, three years in the future, we start to see quantifiably the benefit, we think, you know, net worth is the best measure of that, the benefit from a net worth perspective, but then also the qualitative benefits of like, wow, like, I took that trip, I am spending more time with my family, like we had a family sooner than I thought, we bought the house. You know, I thought it was gonna take us five years, we did it live in less time. So to me, those are the benefits of, of, again, working on a plan, working with a planner to help prioritize all these things, right?

Because, you know, we talked about this in the in the tax world, we feel that working with one of our CFPs and a CPA side by side and stacking years of intentional financial planning and intentional tax planning will get you to where you need to, you know, be quicker. But you know, I was working, I was working, talking to one of our planning clients that’s considering tax, and they have a tax person, but they’re just you know, and it’s a question of filing separately and filing jointly. They’re just looking at it from the perspective of tax. They’re not thinking about how that affects how the filing status affects the student loan payment. So to me, you can’t look at these things in a vacuum. They they’re all interconnected. And I think as you go, that becomes, you know, more true and more obvious. So, again, I’m biased though, right?

Tim Ulbrich 29:33

It’s great stuff. And that’s why I’m glad you brought up the quantitative, qualitative stuff because yes, it translates into actual dollars and cents net worth is the indicator that we’re, you know, looking at most assets, what you own minus liabilities what you owe, but it’s also is the qualitative stuff, are we achieving that living a rich life and also as I alluded to, just the mental clarity and the peace of mind that comes from like, I know that I’ve thought about these or I know that me and my partner or spouse I thought about these together. And we have a plan like targeted dollar amount to that. But that really is incredible. And for folks that want to learn more about our one-on-one financial planning service, you can go to YFPplanning.com. Let’s have a conversation with you to learn more about that service, learn more about what you have going on in your own individual plan and see whether or not that service is a good fit again, YFPplanning.com. From there, you can click on the link to book a free discovery call. Alright, Tim, question number three. If PSLF, Public Service Loan Forgiveness, is not an option for me, what should I do with $200,000 of student loans? How do I wait paying them off versus pursuing 20 to 25 years of forgiveness, which would then result in what we call what others call the tax bomb? So what are your thoughts here?

Tim Baker 30:49

Yeah, and again, forgive the continued commercial, Tim, but like, I think when you’re dealing with six figures worth of debt $200,000, I do think some type of an analysis is really important, especially with like, the moving goal posts, that are the student loan repayment plans, and then the strategies that are out there. So I think, you know, this is a math equation that comes from the analysis, but I think you have to also overlay how you feel about the debt, right? So again, if you’re like, like, I need to get through this, like, ASAP, like, it’s a weight on me versus like, it is what it is, I think that with the math equation is going to color how like, I would advise you as your planner. So I would say back in the day, you know, when we would look at a potentially non PSLF, you know, strategy. So, just to remind everyone PSLF, you know, was implemented in 2007. And the so that means that, you know, the first the first time someone was able to be forgiven was 2017. So you had to, you had to work, you had your loans had to be federal, you had to be in the right type of a repayment plan, you had to work for a non-profits 501C3, the government. You paid, you know, 10 years worth of payments didn’t have to be consecutive, and then you were forgiven tax free. You can, you’re eligible for forgiveness, you’re still eligible forgiveness outside of PSLF, we call it non PSLF. The, it’s a little bit different, you still have to have the right loans and the right plan, it doesn’t matter who you work for. So you can work for a for-profit. But instead of paying it for 10 years, you are paying it for 20 or 25 years of their graduate loans. And then that forgiveness amount is taxable in the year forgiveness, whereas PSLF, it’s a tax free event. So in before, you know, the new, the new plan, the save plan, typically the calculus was if your debt to income ratio was higher than two to one. So meaning I made 100,000 and I had $300,000 in debt, my debt to income ratio was three to one in that case, then a non-PSLF strategy was on the table. Because by the time we looked at $300,000, and a standard or even a refi, by the time we looked at that compared to a an income driven plan, plus, you know, a couple $100, or whatever that was invested for a tax bomb, what you paid per month, and what you paid in total was less than what you would pay in standard.

Now with the save plan and the payments a little bit different that it’s it’s it’s changed a little bit. So I would say that, you know, and the other thing that’s changed, too, Tim, is that, you know, we’re, if if we were looking at non-PSLF, we were also looking at like, typically a refi. So like if we, if our rates were 6% Wait it, you know, you might be able to go out. And for the same 10 year, find a 4.5% or 5%. So you’d get a little bit of a better rate. That’s changed too, right. So now what we’re having a way is a non peel PSLF strategy, versus staying in the federal system with potentially a better interest rate, but meet just maybe keeping the standard, you know, the standard plan. So if you have $200,000 in debt, the standard plan is going to be $2,171 for 10 years. So I think the play here is potentially looking at a refi which I don’t know if you’re necessarily going to be you know, I would look at a 10 year if you can go a little bit more aggressive seven year, five year. But your your, you know, your your payments going to go up accordingly. So, again, the goalposts have changed a little bit here. You know, I would say that, you know, I would say that probably a non-PSLF strategy here if I’m assuming you’re making $125, $130, is probably not the way to go. So probably something in the standard, maybe even being more aggressive in the standard or, again, looking at refis if rates come down, you know. I’m not sure what the 10 year if you do an apples to apples, but there are some benefit, there are still benefits to staying in the federal that I wouldn’t want there to be a pretty, pretty significant interest rate decrease for me to move off into a private loan. And that’s irreversible. So before Tammy, we would just say, Hey, this is kind of the rules of thumb, this is the way to look at it. But it’s a lot different because of the new save plan, the interest rates, etc. You know, so that’s basically where we’re at today.

Tim Ulbrich 35:35

Yeah, I think as you pointed out, the income of this individual is a really important piece of information we don’t have, right because if they’re making $180k, versus they’re making $95k, that’s going to impact that debt to income ratio. And to your point with the new save plan, that ratio, in effect has gotten more favorable. What I mean by that, is because of the change in the plan, the debt to income threshold could potentially be lower and it might make sense to pursue a non PSLF pathway. And, you know, let’s zoom back out, right? We’ve been kind of preaching on not not getting into the silos have to decisions, when you’re talking about hey, do we go more aggressive? Do we not that gets back to conversations about cash flow? What does the budget actually support? What other goals are in mind? You know, are we someone who graduated in their mid to late 20s? Or is this someone that pharmacy’s a second career, and they’re behind on investing in retirement – all of those things, just a few examples are going to impact, right, what decision we make with the student loans and how it ties into other decisions that are happening in the financial plan. So, Tim, great stuff.

These are just a few of the types of questions and conversations that we are seeing inside of our new online community called YFP Plus if you’re not already familiar with YFP Plus, we’d love to have you check out that community. Inside you’ll find exclusive on demand courses, We’ve got weekly live events, we have monthly themes and challenges. So for example, this past month in February, we were talking all about preparing for Uncle Sam and taxes bringing in Sean our CPA into the community. For the month of March, it’s all about FIRE: Financial Independence, Retire Early. We’ve got several events lined up throughout the month, the space to ask questions of our financial planners and our tax professionals and to be in a community of other like minded individuals. It’s really an incredible community. We hope you’ll check it out and use our 30 day free trial to determine whether or not it’s a good long term fit for you. You can do that by going to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/membership to get more information on YFP Plus. Again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/membership. Thanks so much for joining us. We’ll see you next week. Take care.

Tim Ulbrich 37:37

[DISCLAIMER]

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 348: 2024 Housing Market Trends & Assumable Rate Mortgages

Posted on February 29, 2024February 29, 2024 by YFP Media

Tony Umholtz of First Horizon shares insights on the real estate landscape for 2024. Sponsored by First Horizon.

Episode Summary

In this week’s podcast sponsored by First Horizon, we’re joined by Tony Umholtz, a Mortgage Loan Officer from First Horizon, to delve into the housing market updates and trends for 2024. He shares insights on current rates, supply/demand dynamics, and the impact of projected Fed Rate cuts in 2024 on the market. The episode explores the pros and cons of buying a home now versus waiting and delves into assumable rate mortgages—what they are, how they function, eligible loan types, and their growing popularity.

About Today’s Guest

Tony Umholtz is the Senior VP of Mortgage Banking at First Horizon. He graduated Cum Laude from the University of South Florida with a B.S. in Finance from the Muma College of Business. He then went on to complete his MBA. While at USF, Tony was part of the inaugural football team in 1997. He earned both Academic and AP All-American Honors during his collegiate career. After college, Tony had the opportunity to sign contracts with several NFL teams including the Tennessee Titans, New York Giants, and the New England Patriots. Being active in the community is also important to Tony. He has served or serves as a board member for several charitable and non-profit organizations including board member for the Salvation Army, FCA Tampa Bay, and the USF National Alumni Association. Having orchestrated over $1.1 billion in lending volume during his career, Tony has consistently been ranked as one of the top mortgage loan officers in the industry by the Scotsman’s Guide, Mortgage Executive magazine, and Mortgage Originator magazine.

Key Points from the Episode

Housing market trends in 2024, including interest rates and supply/demand. [0:00]
Housing market trends and mortgage rates. [2:37]
Home insurance costs and roof age impacting mortgage approval. [5:29]
Housing market trends and financial planning for a growing family. [11:14]
Refinancing and assumable rate mortgages. [17:11]
Pharmacist home loan options with 700 credit score minimum. [23:26]

Episode Highlights

“One of the positives are again, these are, you know, inventory levels, on average or higher in most markets. So every markets different we’ve talked about that in the past, some markets are, you can’t generalize across the country. But on average inventory levels are better in most areas. And typically around this time of year, you build a little bit more inventory.” – Tony Umholtz

“I mean, what we saw in ’21, ’22 ’20, as well, that was unhealthy. It was great to see your house price go way up, and you make made money on equity. But it was unsustainable. Having 2023 was a blessing. Yeah, I mean, look at it that way. I mean, that was unsustainable. And this was a blessing for all of us, because it would have created a bubble in my mind. And we stopped it. And the fed helped to stop that. And I think that was a win.” – Tony Umholtz

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I welcome First Horizon Mortgage Loan Officer Tony Umholtz back onto the show. During the show we discuss housing market updates and trends for the first quarter of 2024, including current rates supply and demand and how the projected fed rate cuts for 2024 impacting the market. We also discussed the pros and cons of buying now versus waiting and all things assumable rate mortgages. What they are, how they work, eligible loan types and why they are growing in popularity. Alright, let’s hear from today’s sponsor First Horizon and then we’ll jump in my interview with Tony Umholtz.

Tim Ulbrich 00:45

Does saving 20% for a down payment on a home feels like an uphill battle. It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities including high student loan debt, meaning that saving 20% for a down payment on a home may take years. For several years now we’ve been partnering with First Horizon who offers a professional home loan option AKA a doctor or pharmacist loan that requires a 3% down payment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers, has no PMI and offers a 30-year fixed rate mortgage on home loans up to $766,550 in most areas. The pharmacist home loan is available in all states except Alaska and Hawaii, and can be used to purchase condos as well. However, rates may be higher and a condo review has to be completed. To check out the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to start the pre-approval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

Tim Ulbrich 01:50

Tony, welcome back to the show.

Tony Umholtz 01:51

Tim, it’s good to be here with you.

Tim Ulbrich 01:53

We’re excited to have you back. As always we look to you to get our most up-to-date information on kind of what we’re seeing in the housing market, especially for those in 2024 that are looking to buy or sell. I know we’ve got a lot of first time homebuyers out there in our community that have been anxiously awaiting for the right right time to buy. And we’ve got people that have been in their home for a while, maybe in a starter home that are looking to sell and to move to elsewhere. And just a crazy market that I think is hindered a lot of the movement out there of people buying and selling. So why don’t we start there, Tony, of some of what you’re seeing here early in the first quarter of 2024 as it relates to the housing market, you know. What’s what’s going on with interest rates? What are you seeing out there with supply and demand?

Tony Umholtz 02:37

Well, all good questions, Tim. And as always great to be here with you. I you know, it’s been an interesting year, as we haven’t been into 2024 very long, but a lot has happened. And you know it, we kind of forecasted that this year would be a little better than 2023 as far as you know, mortgage volume and purchase volume. But we knew it was gonna be a tough year, we’re still coming out of this, this higher inflationary environment. There’s been some headwinds. But overall, there’s a lot of good things we’re seeing. And then there’s some not so good things. So I’ll start with one of the positives. One of the positives are again, these are, you know, inventory levels, on average or higher in most markets. So every markets different we’ve talked about that in the past, some markets are, you can’t generalize across the country. But on average inventory levels are better in most areas. And typically around this time of year, you build a little bit more inventory. But in a lot of places we haven’t had this amount of inventory since the 2019 are right before the pandemic, which is nice for buyers, right, because you’re finally getting an ability to find some some product and to negotiate a little bit. That being said, we’re still not in a normal market, we’re still under a normal market. Most markets are in that four month range of inventory. And an average markets probably five to seven months right inventory. So we’re still in a fairly tight environment for housing. And we’re still a bit under built nationally, meaning that we don’t have enough housing units. So that’s also you know, one of the reasons housing prices haven’t fallen, you know, despite the higher rates and the headwinds in the economy. Regarding rates, we have seen rates rise since the beginning of the year, and the rates were higher in October, early November than they are now. But we’ve seen an increase in a lot of that is due to positive economic data. Economic data has been positive on the you know, on the spending front, unemployment has been good, inflation is still there. I will say this to the last inflation report had had inflation but it was counting some inflation from last year. So like if you look past that we’re really going in the right direction. So I think the I think rates are gonna go down as time goes on. I think it’d be very slow this year. But you know, post the election, I think things can be pretty good. So I mean, it’s a roughly a year away, but I think you’re gonna see rates really get better as time goes on. But the other issue too coming back to this, you know, supply and demand we have as a mortgage company, we have so many clients we’ve pre-approved that are looking. It’s just gonna be, and I’m just one of many, but you know that it’s just going to get more competitive as those rates drop. So it’s like a kind of like a double edged sword, I think, you know.

Tim Ulbrich 03:32

Yeah, and I know we see that, Tony in our community. You know, a lot of first time homebuyers that’s it’s natural, right. As a new graduate, you finish pharmacy school, you’re looking at that home purchase. A lot of people are getting antsy on the renting front, “Hey, I’ve been renting for a while not not as long as I wanted.” They’re looking at what they’re paying for rent “Hey, I’d love to own a home, we’d love to build some equity long term.” And so certainly some pent up demand I know we see in our community. And I think that’s natural and expected to hear it broader than that, too. And I want our listeners to kind of hold that thought on, hey, if interest rates do come down, you know, here in 2024, what is the impact that that might have on the availability of the market? Because we’re going to talk a little bit about, you know, this concept of buy now versus wait, and what are some of the pros and cons. But before we do that, Tony, you shared something with me, before we hit record that I thought was of interest, would be of interest to our listeners, about what you’re seeing out there related to the age of a roof and how that might impact being able to get an insurance policy, which of course, you know, for homebuyers is a really important piece. So tell tell us more about what you’re seeing there?

Tony Umholtz 06:36

Sure. I mean, in the insurance aspect, it’s really big. And I think certain states are going to be tougher than others. So you’ve got, I’m based in Florida. So we’re ground zero for this, right? Because we’ve had, we had some legislation here in Florida that made, there were some abuses in you know, really more against the insurance industry, by various groups, and so forth. And people really has taken advantage of some of the flexibility. And it caused some challenges here. And there’s been some changes, as always, insurance companies are going to change what they insure, and one’s been roof age, right. So roof age is a big deal down here. It’s also in other states, too. So it’s not something that’s just here. And, you know, the costs of insurance have gone up a lot, right, and especially in more hurricane prone areas, or fire prone areas in the West, you’ve seen cost of insurance go up and I’ve seen like newer properties, you know, while they’re more expensive, the cost of insurance is much lower, you know, on newer construction, but it is more expensive generally to buy new construction. I would say the the age of the roof can vary a lot but and type of roof, whether it’s shingle or tile. So a tile roof typically has a longer age of life than a shingle roof. And the you know, though, sometimes we’ll cover those longer, but some insurance companies won’t touch it under 10 years, if it’s under, it’s got to be under 10 years, some are 15 years, some will go longer with what’s called a four point inspection, which not only looks at the roof, but looks at your, you know, your electrical, as well, looks at your plumbing, and other aspects of the home. But those are some things you may need to do. And it can become harder to get insurance or get the insurance that makes sense for you as far as costs go and coverage go. But it’s definitely an issue right now. And then, you know, with repairing a roof, it’s a lot of times it has to be done prior to closing. It’s not something you can essentially escrow. Right? You know, so, you know, if you’re selling a home and you have an older roof, repairing the roof is gonna help you get a much better deal on the house as far as the seller goes.

Tim Ulbrich 08:51

I’m glad you said that. That’s exactly where my mind was going. Right? If people are thinking about selling a home, this has an impact. If people are thinking about buying a home, it has an impact. And obviously every area of the country is different in terms of the risk and the exposure here. But it’s just another good reminder when you talk about rising insurance costs that you know, especially for that first time homebuyer, it’s very easy to fixate on purchase price of the home, right. Purchase price of the home. And we want to be thinking about the whole financial picture. So yes, it’s the purchase price of the home. It’s the mortgage that we’re going to carry the principal and interest but it’s also the taxes. It’s also the insurance, it’s also the upkeep, you know, and all those things involved. So here we’re talking about an older roof and being able to get an insurance policy if you do those insurance costs potentially going up. On top of that would be obviously that potential replacement costs to be thinking about of the roof, as well.

Tony Umholtz 09:38

That’s right. I have one little trick and secret. This is something we’ve we’ve done for 20 plus years and it doesn’t have a bearing on anything with mortgage. But sometimes clients will say, “hey, I need to get this insurance down.” And you have to have an you have to have a certain amount of coverage to get a mortgage right. So, but one thing you don’t need is, I’ll see these policies come in with $600,000 worth of personal property coverage. Yeah, well, as a lender, we don’t care about personal property. Now I recommend if you got valuables you have some coverage, right. But a lot of folks, especially buying a first home don’t have $600,000 worth of artwork and other collectibles to insure. So a lot of times taking that down, we’ll give you some premium savings. And we’ve done that quite often, over the years or suggested that.

Tim Ulbrich 10:25

Good reminder, right, to kind of look at line item of your insurance policy and what you do or don’t need, especially if you’re looking at if you options. Tony, as an aside, but related to that I we had a unfortunate fire in our neighborhood of a home, just down the street. And ever since then, we’re now a year and several months out where there’s been no movement on the house. And I presume it’s related to something being tied up in insurance. I don’t know the full backstory. But ever since then I have looked differently at my replacement cost line item, as well as the relocation piece of, you know. When you think about how long might this go on? And what are the expenses associated for relocation. So good reminder to look and understand your homeowners insurance policy.

Tony Umholtz 11:08

Absolutely.

Tim Ulbrich 11:10

Tony, I want to get your opinion on buy now versus wait. Obviously, we’re talking broadly, this, of course, is specific to one situation. But what made me think about this is I had a conversation with a colleague a couple of weeks ago, this individual is about seven years into their career, dual income household, young family just had their second child bought their first starter home about three years ago. And they’re now itching to move, right. Family has grown. They want to get a better location a little bit closer to commute to work. But naturally, as a part of that they’re facing some headwinds, those headwinds are obviously the market that we’re in. Interest rates are higher. Home costs have appreciated, of course, and in this case, they’re moving to an area that the homes are just more expensive altogether. And so when I was asking some questions, you know, what I heard, and what made me think that this is probably resonate with a lot of our community is that there’s several barriers that they’re facing. Yes, the current market conditions, but also, hey, we’ve got these student loan payments that are still hanging around, right. We’ve got daycare costs, which are rising, you know, quickly, especially now that they have a second child. And they really feel like they need to be saving more aggressively for retirement, they feel like they’re behind on retirement. And I think this is a great example of someone that I will talk to, on a regular basis that’s in this new practitioner phase of their career that feels like they’re not on track with their other financial goals, and is feeling somewhat trapped by this home situation that they’re in. And, you know, if we were to consider a move, potentially, knowing what’s going on in the market, knowing where interest rates are at, you know, potentially do we buy now, when rates are not at the highest, as you mentioned, but they’re quite high and hope we can refinance in the future? Or, do we wait and see what happens with interest rates come down with at that point, running the risk that, hey, as rates come down, I think it’s safe to assume we’re gonna have a lot more, you know, sellers are gonna have a lot more buyers that flood the market. So just would love to hear your thoughts, you know, knowing that this is a common situation we probably would hear and see in our community.

Tony Umholtz 13:10

Sure. I mean, it’s a great question. And it’s very common across the country right now. We’re seeing some of our clients, you know, growing families outgrowing their home or have to relocate because of employment situation. Very common. So I would say I mean, like we take a step back, we kind of touched on at the beginning of our discussion here is, if you look at the overall market, we’ve got lower than average inventory in most areas still, even though inventories building which inventory buildings a good thing, because we need it going into the spring season. But the you’re likely going to see pretty stable housing prices, right? Probably escalating like even if you look year over year, prices went up over last year. I mean, certain pockets fell. There’s certain areas that you know, fell. I think, but but on average home prices actually went up last year. Even with all those headwinds, right. So I think you’re getting into a pretty stable investment, as well, you know, if you if you’re moving up, like in a situation with the colleagues you spoke to, I mean, moving to a better part of town, a bigger home. I mean, all these things could be meaning more appreciation on the house, too. So yes, the cost is more, but there is the upside of appreciation. I do think we are going to all see, like anyone that bought in the last year, year to year and a half, almost two years now. They’re going to get opportunities to refinance in the future. I can’t tell you exactly when. But we’ve even seen some that are popping up that made sense. Now after these last few weeks of rates rising. We had a few clients and some of them had to pay their loan for six months just because that’s a guideline for the type of program they were in. And we couldn’t refinance them, but they the rates have dropped over a point they could have refinanced already. There’s people that have already refinanced. So I think I think you’re gonna see opportunities for that as time goes on, where your cost of ownership will actually come down. But it is tough right now, it’s very tough. There are less buyers buying. So I think you’re gonna be able to negotiate better with sellers, which is the is the benefit. But it’s a tough decision. I mean, this is where you look at the whole financial plan. Yeah, right, you’ve got to look at, okay, I’ve got daycare costs rising, I want to save more for retirement. You know, that brings me to, like, you know, making sure you’re utilizing all your company matches, right. And all the things you can do if that other buckets going up for housing, you know, and in there is no question, housing prices have trended higher, and, you know, they may, what would be healthy and really, I’ll take a step back here. I mean, what we saw in ’21, ’22 ’20, as well, that was unhealthy. It was great to see your house price go way up, and you make made money on equity. But it was unsustainable. Having 2023 was a blessing. Yeah, I mean, look at it that way. I mean, that was unsustainable. And this was a blessing for all of us, because it would have created a bubble in my mind. And we stopped it. And the fed helped to stop that. And I think that was a win. It made my business a lot harder. I don’t mean a lot of people. But it was one of those things where it was it was a blessing for this industry, I think and the housing market in general. So you know, just again, to clarify, I think you you are going to see a fairly flat market, I feel like this year, I do think you’re going to see a lot people stepping in, I will also mention that builders are opportunistic. And the builders know, there’s an opportunity right now, because we’re under built, we didn’t build enough homes from 2010 to 2020. So they’re going to be building. We’ll get to equilibrium, eventually, in the next few years. And I think things will be a little different then, but I don’t think prices are going to collapse in most markets, you know. And I think there’s been a bit of a pullback in certain areas. But for the bread and butter communities where most people are owner occupied, you’re not going to see a lot of variance.

Tim Ulbrich 17:11

Great perspective, Tony. And I think what really resonated with me with this conversation that I had is, you know, yes, there’s the objective math part right of buying a home, and we want to make sure that it fits in with the rest of the financial plan. But it also, there’s an emotional part of this that is important, you know, for I know firsthand for us, our home is we spend most of our time in our home. It’s it’s a place where we’re making memories and experiences. And so there’s this tug and pull that I see with a lot of pharmacists, which is a healthy kind of balance that we’ve got to strike of, hey, how do we have a reasonable percentage of our income going towards our home so that we can achieve other financial goals, right, we don’t want to be house poor. But also we recognize that, you know, part of living a rich life today is potentially the home and what we’re going to be able to build in that community and our experiences and so forth. And this is the tug and pull, right that we’ve got to think about. I do have one question and I’m hesitating even ask this because I have a feeling the answer is it depends. But when you mentioned the the example of a 1% reduction and refinance, and you know, in that example, they hadn’t yet got to that six month timeline that you mentioned with that loan product. Is there a general rule of thumb that you think about in terms of rate differential and where someone starts to begin to think that a refinance, of course, when you consider costs involved in doing that may be advantageous? Is it at that point? Is it less is a little bit more? Or is it just too much of it depends?

Tony Umholtz 18:37

Well, I don’t want to say it depends, but there’s a lot of variables, and one of them is clearly is the loan size. Right? Which is, I mean, it might 21 plus years doing this in this business, I mean, generally said 1%, but I’ve had numerous, especially when we do what’s called premium pricing, which means we as a lender pay the closing costs, which is a way to do that. Now, you don’t get the same rate that you would if you paid the customary costs, right. But like I’ve had larger loans, where we’ve done it at as little as 50 basis points, which is a half point. But if you have a million dollar loan, and there’s no closing costs, and you’re saving interest, you’re going to do it. So we’ve we’ve had all kinds of scenarios, but generally I look for 1% and that tend to people on the loan size and the state, certain states have higher closing costs than other states you know, so that would be the two variables.

Tim Ulbrich 19:31

Yeah, reason I asked I think to your point is we’re gonna see this come up, and maybe we’ll have to do another episode later this year if we start to see things trending because we haven’t talked about it right much in the last couple years for good reason.

Tony Umholtz 19:42

I wouldn’t be surprised if we get into the third quarter and closer to the election, we start seeing some movement. So we’ll just watch it.

Tim Ulbrich 19:50

The next thing I wanted to pick your brain on was around assumable rate mortgages. So I read an article on Wall Street Journal a couple weeks ago that really just piqued my interest about this topic and I know one we haven’t talked about on the show before, and obviously in the current rate environment that we’re in, I have a feeling some of this information starts to go viral. And people are like, Well, wait a minute, Can I get an assumable? rate mortgages? So can you define for us? What is an assumable? Rate Mortgage? You know, how do these types of products work? And then give us the, you know, the real life of how viable these may or may not be as people are considering their options?

Tony Umholtz 20:26

Sure, well, they do exist. It wasn’t just an article in the Wall Street Journal. They do exist. They’ve been they’ve been out there for a long time. And there’s really only three programs that are that are available that are assumable. And one is called an FHA loan, which we’ve touched on the other ones, a VA loan, and the last one is at USDA loan. So they’re all three government programs. And the interesting thing about VA is you don’t necessarily have to be a veteran, you can assume it, you still have to be approved by the servicing lender. But you don’t have to be a veteran, which is interesting, you know, and so, you know, couple of the the pros and cons, obviously, the big pro is, first of all, you have to find a seller willing to do this, right? That’s the number one thing. The other thing would be, I had someone call me on one of these just asking my opinion. And it was it was there was the ability to assume the loan, it was a low fixed rate, it was around three and a quarter or something like that much lower than today’s environment. But the amount of appreciation above what that loan is, and you have to pay the seller for all their principal reduction, but the home was worth so much more now on the down payment is huge. So like in this, I’m just kind of give you an example: They may have borrowed 300,000, but the house is worth $420,000. Yep, so you’re gonna have to bring $420,000 to get to the what they owe, or sorry, $120,000. So it’s $120k. It’s a big down payment. So with these assumable loans, a lot of times the new buyer has to come and compensate the owner for the difference and it’s a huge amount, right, normally, because the markets run up so much and you may have put money down. Now those three programs do, I mean FHA does carry PMI, but the rates are so low, that it wouldn’t matter in a lot of these cases. The VA loan, you have to get approved by the servicing lender, okay, so they will have to approve you for the product, that means you’re going to have to meet all the criteria for the loan size, just like any other loan, it’s not going to be the same as communicating like with a team, like myself or another lender that is originating every day, you’re not going to get that service level, it’s going to be more like a we’ll get to it, we get to that type of call. And but it is possible, it’s just not easy. You know, and not only do you have to find the proper owner in home, you know, the home you like with the owner that’s willing to let go of a loan, you’d also have to compensate them and have to have some cash for a down payment. There’s a there’s those are the various that’s why I don’t think well, I read the article too. And I saw there was a guide starting to start a tech business to, it’s just going to be really hard. At the end of the day, you got to you got to make it all work and meet all these guidelines. And, and and just I just think it’s going to be a detriment since the amount of money folks will have to bring to get that rate.

Tim Ulbrich 23:26

And that’s a piece, Tony, to be honest, I didn’t think a whole lot about right that what you’re highlighting the example the, you know, $300,000 home that’s not worth $420k, and they’re bringing $120,000 of cash, like you then have to factor in all of this what’s the opportunity cost of bringing a bunch of cash? Not not even a hey do you have it, but what’s the opportunity costs of that $120,000 of cash and not just focus on the rate comparison? Great stuff. Great stuff. Well, let’s wrap up by talking about the pharmacist home loan product that we’ve collaborated in sharing with our community, Tony, now for several years available through First Horizon. You know, I think more than ever, this is an area that we see of interest among pharmacists, even though there’s gonna be less that are out there in the market right now that are buying obviously, we’re gonna have more coming in the future. But as we’ve seen appreciation, as we’ve seen, the home values go over time, obviously that down payment for a new practitioner, especially that first time homebuyer can be a huge barrier. And you know, one of the questions that comes up is, hey, how can I potentially buy a home, get into a home without having to put down a conventional 20% down as I’m trying to focus on student loans, daycare costs, investing all the other goals that we talk about. And so I think that’s why we were so excited about this collaboration several years ago and continue to be excited about the collaboration is what this product can do for for pharmacists in that position. So tell us a little bit more about the pharmacist home loan product who it’s for, minimum credit scores, maximum loan amounts, how the PMI, all of that works.

Tony Umholtz 24:55

Sure, sure. Well, you’re the minimum credit score I’ll start with that is 700. You have to have a 700 credit score. And and if you’re a little below that my team, we have ways to help give ideas and actually help with even giving like a scenario to roll up for quite a few folks to show them what they can get their credit scores to by consolidating debt or paying down a credit card, wherever it might be. The max loan amount right now it’s in most counties is $766,550. But there are areas of the country where we’ll go higher based upon that, that the, you know, the, the counties maximum loan amount. So especially like in California, in and around like Northern Virginia. There’s certain areas where we can actually lend a higher loan amount because the loan sizes are higher, even a $900,000. And there is no PMI, which is the big big driver. And that’s like a car payment for most people when they buy a home, so we can save that with this program. There is no prepayment penalty, which is big too, we need you need that that reassurance that you refinance, if rates drop. The, you know, with the reserves and so forth, there really isn’t a big need for that. There’s even the ability for the seller to give some concessions, which we have to watch that as things go on. But that’s something that, you know, if you want to get some of your closing costs covered, to keep more cash back, that’s something else it’ll allow too. And that’s bigger now, you know, Tim, where I see when a home needs a little bit of cosmetic repair, just that extra $5000-$6000 that the seller is willing to pay or compensate. That can be the the ticket to getting that work done. So those are the things that that that it’ll allow. So there’s a few extra little pieces there. But 700 is a minimum credit score, we do look at debt to income ratios around 43%, not to get too in the weeds, but income to debt ratio. It does take a lower factor for student loans than like a traditional Fannie Mae loan would we do or FHA. So there’s a little more flexibility but yes, pretty pretty much a quick summary.

Tim Ulbrich 27:10

And you may have said it and I didn’t hear it but remind us of a percent down required for a first time homebuyer versus second.

Tony Umholtz 27:19

Good catch Tim. Yeah, so first time homebuyer is 3% down. No PMI. If you’ve owned before, it’s 5% down. That’s the difference.

Tim Ulbrich 27:30

And we have all of this more information on our website. If you go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/ home-loan. We’ll link to that in the show notes. As well, you get more information on the pharmacists home loan product and offering. We also have a form that you can fill out quickly there that will get you connected to Tony and his team to learn more as you’re looking at options. Whether you’re in the Hey, I’m ready to buy now, or I’m thinking about buying in six months, make sure to check out those resources and fill out that form so we can get you connected to Tony and his team. Tony, this has been great as always. Really appreciate your perspective. The other thing I just want to say to our community, if you have a question, you know, whether you’re buying, selling, thinking about buying and selling in 2024, you have a question that you’d like us to tackle. We’re gonna be bringing Tony back on the show here in a couple of months. Just send us an email [email protected]. In the subject line, just put home buying, home selling question, and we’ll make sure to tee that up for Tony on a future episode. So Tony, thanks so much for taking time to come on.

Tony Umholtz 28:24

Hey, thanks for having me. Tim. Great seeing you.

Tim Ulbrich 28:26

You too. Take care.

Tim Ulbrich 28:29

Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacst Podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists in the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% downpayment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers and has no PMI on a 30-year fixed rate mortgage. To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, and to get started with the pre- approval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

Tim Ulbrich 29:12

As we conclude this week’s podcast an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information to the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates, publish them. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 347: Redefining Retirement with David Zgarrick, Ph.D. (YFP Classic)

Posted on February 22, 2024February 22, 2024 by YFP Media

Dr. David Zgarrick, retired professor, redefines retirement after 30+ years in academia and shares insights on embracing a fulfilling post-pharmacy life.

Episode Summary

This week on the YFP Podcast, we revisit a classic. On episode #291, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, welcomed Dr. David Zgarrick, a Professor Emeritus of Northeastern University, to the show to discuss redefining retirement. Some highlights from the episode include Dr. Zgarrick sharing his views on his next phase in life, after 30+ years in academia, as a preferment phase of his career. He shares how and why he started planning for his financial future early on in his life and career and hands down advice for new pharmacy graduates facing competing financial priorities. Throughout the discussion, listeners will hear Dr. Zgarrick speak on standout moments from his pharmacy career, the impact his financial choices have had on that journey, and ultimately his decision to enter this preferment stage of his career. He shares excitement for retirement and this next phase of his life, what he means by a preferment phase, and how retirement can be an opportunity to experience a rich, fulfilling life outside of pharmacy without the guilt of competing responsibilities. Listen for helpful advice Dr. Zgarrick took from his financial advisor regarding his first year of retirement and how factoring in a cross-country move played a role in his retirement and financial plan.

About Today’s Guest

David P. Zgarrick, Ph.D., is a Professor Emeritus in the School of Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Sciences at Northeastern University. His prior positions include Associate Dean of Faculty at Northeastern’s Bouvé College of Health Sciences, Acting Dean of Northeastern’s School of Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Sciences, Chair of the Northeastern’s Department of Pharmacy and Health Systems Sciences; John R. Ellis Distinguished Chair of Pharmacy Practice at Drake University College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences; and Vice-chair of Pharmacy Practice at Midwestern University Chicago College of Pharmacy. He is a licensed pharmacist, receiving a BS in Pharmacy from the University of Wisconsin – Madison and a MS and Ph.D. in Pharmaceutical Administration from The Ohio State University. Dr. Zgarrick taught pharmacy practice management and entrepreneurship in the health sciences. His scholarly interests include pharmacy workforce research, pharmacy management and operations, pharmacy education, and development of post-graduate programs. He has published over 150 peer-reviewed manuscripts and abstracts, is co-editor of the textbook Pharmacy Management: Essentials for All Practice Settings (5th Ed), and authored the book Getting Started as a Pharmacy Faculty Member. He was editor-in-chief of the Journal of Pharmacy Teaching, Executive Associate Editor of Currents in Pharmacy Teaching and Learning, and an editorial board member of Research in Social and Administrative Pharmacy. Dr. Zgarrick is active in many professional organizations, including the American Pharmacists Association (APhA) and the American Association of Colleges of Pharmacy (AACP). He served on AACP’s Board of Directors for 12 years, including as Treasurer from 2016 – 2022. Dr. Zgarrick also serves on the Board of Visitors for the University of Wisconsin School of Pharmacy, the Board of Grants for the American Foundation for Pharmaceutical Education, and is a Fellow of the American Pharmacists Association.

Key Points from the Episode

Why David views the next phase of life after 30+ years in academia, not as a retirement, but rather, as a preferment phase of his career.
How and why he started planning financially early in his career to put himself in a position of having choice.
Advice he has for new grads that are facing the financial headwind of many competing priorities including student loans, saving for the future, and buying a home.

Episode Highlights

“I think when one thinks about getting to this stage in a career, I mean, there’s been so much that’s been rewarding and interesting about the work that I do. But like anyone, none of our career paths or jobs are perfect. They all come with sometimes things that we would just assume not be doing. Or the longer we’ve been doing something, we get to know ourselves pretty well.” – David Zgarrick, Ph.D.

“Money is a means to an end. It is not an end in and of itself. The same as our career. We have to think of our career path as a means to an end. Not the end in and itself.” – David Zgarrick, Ph.D.

“I remember one time you posted on one of your blogs or something, what’s the most fun thing one can do when you’ve got some extra money? And I think I remember my comment to that post was: save it. And to some people that might not seem the most exciting thing in the world. But when I can take that money and put it in the bank, that tells me that I’m going to have that for – I’m going to be able to make decisions in a future based on having made that decision now to save that money. And it’s going to give me options that I know other people might not have if they didn’t save that money.” – David Zgarrick, Ph.D.

“We have money and we manage our money because we want to be able to live a life that’s meaningful to us. And however that is, I’m not here to judge how one spends their money or what one does with their money. So long as you’ve got the money to be able to do it, that’s our choices. It’s your choices to be able to do that how you wish.” – David Zgarrick, Ph.D.

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I had the pleasure of welcoming Dr. David Zgarrick, a professor emeritus of Northeastern University College of Pharmacy. Some of my favorite moments from the show including hearing Dave share why he views the next phase of life after 30-plus years in Academia not as retirement but rather as a preferment phase of his career. How and why he started planning financially early in his career to put himself in a position of having choice? And advice he has for new grads that are facing the financial headwind of many competing financial priorities, including student loan debt, buying a home and saving for the future.

Now, before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP planning does and working one-on-one with more than 280 households in 40-plus states. YFP planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized to the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether or not YFP planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

Okay, let’s jump on my interview with professor emeritus Dr. Dave Zgarrick.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:29] TU: Dave, welcome to the show.

[00:01:30] Dr. DZ: Thank you. Thank you. It’s great to be here, Tim.

[00:01:33] TU: Well, I’m really excited to have you on to dig into your professional journey and the impact that finances has had throughout your journey so that you could retire or perhaps better said, as we’ll talk about, take a half-time break at the age of 57. And you and I have known each other for several years through the academic circles. And when I saw your post on LinkedIn about entering this next phase, I knew that your story would have such a great impact on our community. So, thanks so much for coming on the show.

[00:02:00] Dr. DZ: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I’m really great to be here. And it’s great to think about half time. It was interesting, I’m a Green Bay Packers Fan. You’re a Buffalo Bills fan. Just thinking about half time. We’re about halfway through the NFL season. It’s time to make some adjustments. And I think both the Packers and Bills will have some adjustments to make. And so, we can talk about how we make financial adjustments as well.

[00:02:22] TU: I love that. I love that. Let’s start with your pharmacy career. When did that Journey begin and what drew you into the profession to begin with?

[00:02:31] Dr. DZ: I’m from an interesting community. I’m from Marshfield, Wisconsin, which is a relatively small community in Central Wisconsin. But it’s a very unique community and that Marshfield has a very large medical center. It’s the Marshfield Clinic. It has now the Marshall Medical Center.

I grew up with health and healthcare even though no one in my family was a healthcare professional. My father was an administrator for a dairy corporation. My mother is an educator. She taught special education. I was not brought up in a healthcare background. But I had lots of friends and knew lots of people that were in the healthcare space.

And as I was going through high school, I was thinking about health and healthcare a lot and thinking about wanting to go down that pathway. I was reasonably good at all the things they tell you you’re supposed to be good at in high school, math and science, and communications and all those things.

I had honestly probably was thinking first about medicine at the time. I was going to go to medical school. I guess, in some ways I was very fortunate. I went to a career day seminar and one of the speakers that came to that career day seminar was someone from the University of Wisconsin School of Pharmacy. And talked a little bit about pharmacy and what pharmacists did and so forth. And pharmacy hit a good spot.

And again, I’ll give my parents credit. They were very pragmatic with me when it came to where are you going to go to college? And what are you going to major in college? That kind of stuff. And they were said, “You know, you can go to college anywhere you want. And you can major in anything you want so long as you can support yourself when you’re done.”

And to that end, pharmacy seemed it was a great at the time. Keep in mind. It was a five-year BS degree at the time, which was a great fit. Because in some ways I’m thinking, “Okay, I’m going to learn all these things that are going to help me if I go to medical school. Become a physician. I’m going to learn a lot about drugs, and a lot about health and health care and so forth.” Worst case scenario, if I don’t get medical school, I could be a pharmacist and I’ll be able to support myself.

I’ll say two things happened along the way. One, I recognized that being a physician wasn’t all it was cracked up to be. And especially the pathway towards becoming a physician. It’s not just medical school, of course. It’s residency and training and everything that that life brings. And then I also learned that there’s so much more to pharmacy than I had envisioned there was. Probably many people, when you start down this path. Growing up in Central Wisconsin, honestly, my only connection with pharmacy was with community pharmacy.

I saw people, primarily men, wearing white coats working behind counters and seeing them take big bottles of pills and put them into little bottles of pills. And didn’t think that much more of it. Obviously, as I learned so much more of about not only what the role of pharmacy was at that time but what we were seeing it begin to evolve to. Towards not just dispensing medications, of course, but really using our knowledge and expertise to help maximize the benefits from medication therapy.

I was fortunate. I had some really good experiences along the way. I hooked up with folks that were doing research in a variety of different ways. I spent one summer doing medical research working in a lab. And honestly said to myself, “That’s not what I wanted to do.”

But I spent more time doing research with social administrative scientists and learning about the kinds of questions that they asked. My parents will tell you I am one of those people that always ask questions. I was one of those always kids that always asked, “Why? Why? Why?”

And as you can imagine, parents, you being a parent yourself, you’re probably – at a certain point, you just want to tell your kids go figure it out yourself. Because, honestly, that’s what we do as researchers. We ask questions and we have the tools to be able to learn how to figure it out ourselves.

Now, my questions I was very interested in asking were honestly about pharmacists themselves. The work they do. How they’re rewarded for that? What their ambitions are? Where they see themselves going with their careers? As a pharmacy workforce researcher, my interest is very much in who pharmacists are and what they want to do with that pathway.

And so, I got my pharmacy degree from Wisconsin. I went and worked as a community pharmacist for several years. Worked for a company that’s called Shopko. Unfortunately, Shopko is no longer with us. But many of us probably remember what Shopko was. And for a number of years, they were a great place to work with because I really used my knowledge as a pharmacist and as a pharmacy manager working for Shopko.

But then went back to – went to Ohio State for graduate school. That was a good place to be able to go to be able to learn the research tools that I needed to have to be able to do the research that I do is. As well as to get more experience with teaching and educating.

I had gotten some experiences as a teaching assistant, as an undergraduate student at Wisconsin already. But then at Ohio State, I got even more experience and learned what it was like to be in part of a classroom of 100 students and have to be prepared and have to help students understand how does their knowledge of this particular topic fit into a bigger picture of all of the things that we expect them to know as a pharmacist?

As I finished up my graduate work, I had options. I could go work for the pharmaceutical industry. I could go work with a managed care organization. I could work with wholesalers like Cardinal, or McKesson, or Bergen or something like that. There were lots of options.

Ultimately, I chose the academic path because I really enjoyed that ability to not just continue to do research but to connect with students and to really – it felt that I could have the biggest impact in my profession. And ultimately, the biggest impact on patients by continuing to train and help educate the next future generations of people that are going to go into pharmacy.

[00:09:00] TU: I love that, Dave. And you would ultimately spend 30-plus years across three different institutions in that area of work and I know have had an impact on so many other colleagues that you’ve crossed path with, obviously, the thousands probably of students that you worked with over the years.

[00:09:17] Dr. DZ: It’s interesting. At this point of one’s career when – yeah, one naturally does kind of look back at those types of things. And I started adding up the numbers between the institutions I’ve taught. And I’ve been the professor of probably close to 5,000 students over the years. I’m editor of a textbook and I work with several others on that book as well that I know is used in most colleges of pharmacy in the United States. And including not many colleges of pharmacy across the world. And so, it’s kind of cool to think about how one has an impact not necessarily even just directly like we are used to with our patients. But that indirect impact that the work that we do can be used by so many people.

[00:10:01] TU: One of the reasons I was so excited for this interview, Dave, is that I think there’s often a perception around retirement that folks might be limping towards that line. Or begrudgingly working late in their career. Or there’s a lot of energy around early retirement. But often, I think that’s with the context of that someone may not necessarily be enjoying the work that they’re doing.

And what’s really interesting about your story is the great career you have had. The fulfillment and joy you had in your work. The impact you had on many others. But also, this excitement around the next phase of life. And to me, that is what – when we talk about preferred retirement, when we talk about what retirement may look like and the vision of like that, that to me is the success I know that I’m yearning for, is to have an option and choice, of course. But also, to look back and feel like, “Wow! I love the time that I had and the impact and the opportunities I had.”

And you shared something really interesting on LinkedIn. You said that, “While I may have concluded the pharmacy educator phase of my career, I certainly don’t think of myself as being done.” And to borrow a phrase from Lucinda Main, someone we both know. You said you’re entering the preferment phase of your career. Fortunate to have the luxury of choosing what you’d like to do. Who I’d like to do it with? And taking the time to figure it all out. I love that, the preferment phase. Talk to us more about what that means to you.

[00:11:31] Dr. DZ: Thank you so much, because I feel so fortunate to be able to be at this phase of my career. And I want to share my wife, Michelle, who’s also a pharmacist who I met in graduate school at Ohio State. She has also started at her preferment phase as well. She was a pharmacist. Worked in the hospitals and outpatient oncology settings for many years. And has decided to start her preferment stage at this point with us.

But, no. I think when one thinks about getting to this stage in a career, I mean, there’s been so much that’s been rewarding and interesting about the work that I do. But like anyone, none of our career paths or jobs are perfect. They all come with sometimes things that we would just assume not be doing. Or the longer we’ve been doing something, we get to know ourselves pretty well.

And I say to myself, “Well, these are things that I really like that I’m really interested in.” And then there’s other parts of my job that I’m doing that, “Well, I’m not so interested in those things.” And I’m just doing them because at a certain point you kind of feel you have to. And I guess this is, again, a good position to be able to be in.

When one thinks about preferment, I mean, yes, I stepped off in academia what we call the tenure track. I was a tenured full professor, which in many respects is the ideal position. It’s the golden ring that many people go towards. This idea that you have a lifetime contract. And I was very fortunate to have a lifetime contract at a leading university and was well-compensated for what I did. I’m very fortunate to have been in that position.

That said, if you’re staying in that position, you’re going to keep doing all of those things essentially for the rest of your career. And I just kind of said to myself, “Maybe not.” Maybe there are other things I’d like to do. Again, there’s things I like doing. There’s things that I don’t like doing. And then there’s this whole outside of my job life, the things that make me, so to speak, that I kind of wanted to think I’d like to be able to do them without feeling guilty that I should be doing something else. And so, no, I decided that this was a good point in my life to be able to make this type of change.

[00:14:01] TU: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think – No pressure, Dave. But I think you and maybe Lucinda should work on a book on the preferment phase. Because I think – and we try to find this balance. But we focus so heavily on the dollars and cents, right? Really important. We got to have enough to cover our needs and the goals we have. Whatever those may be. But we tend to overlook both in retirement as well as throughout our careers. What does it mean to live a rich life? Not just dollars and cents. But at the end of the day, money is a tool, right?

[00:14:34] Dr. DZ: Oh, exactly. Exactly. I couldn’t agree with you more. Money is a means to an end. It is not an end in and of itself. The same as our career. We have to think of our career path as a means to an end. Not the end in and itself.

Again, when I stepped back and thought about that, I think about my family. And it was difficult sometimes especially during the pandemic. I mean, my family was back in the midwest, in Wisconsin, in Chicago and so forth. And there was a long time where we literally couldn’t travel to go see them. My wife’s family was in Ohio. The same thing. My wife was working at a hospital and they’ve literally told her, “Well, if you leave the state of Massachusetts to go visit your family, you have to quarantine for two weeks before you come back to work. And that, just for a long time, wasn’t viable for either of us.

We started thinking about our families. We started thinking about the things we enjoy doing. I mean, I enjoy skiing. I enjoy getting out on my bike and going on rides and that kind of stuff. And some of the mental type things that we all like doing and so forth. The things that honestly make us us.

I look to this point of life that we’ve entered now where it’s giving us more space and time to be able to do that and not feel like, “Oh, I’ve got to do this job aspect of my job or that aspect of my job.” I mean, we’ve figured out ways to be able to manage that.

[00:16:09] TU: One thing I mentioned to you before we recorded is I’m reading right now a book called Retirement Stepping Stones by Tony Hixson. We’ll link to that in the show notes. And this was recommended to me by a shared colleague that really John [inaudible 00:16:23] said, “Hey, Tim you got to read this book,” to really have perspective on what he and I were talking about at the time, which is more this concept of life planning. Again, need the dollars and cents. But also, what are the goals? What’s the vision we have to live life well?

And Tony Hickson, in this book, talks about retirement not as a finish line but how we need to be thinking about as a half time. And I love that. Because what do we do at halftime, right? You already kind of mentioned it when our Bills and Packers played. You adjust. You adjust and you have a plan.

Yes, it’s been informed a little bit by what’s been happening. But it’s a time to reset, to look ahead and to make sure we have a plan. We don’t just go out into the third quarter and hope it’s going to work out, right?

My question for you is it’s clear to me, Dave, when I hear you talk talking about investment of more time with family, with the outdoors, and skiing and traveling. That there’s these other goals. But there’s been thought and intention behind this transition. And talk us through that a little bit more and how you and your wife got to this decision point and ultimately painted the picture of what this vision would look like.

[00:17:28] Dr. DZ: Yeah, I think for many of us – I mean, in some ways, it’s been a conversation we’ve thought about for a long time. I mean, we knew from this point that we started working that someday we were going to retire. We weren’t just going to stay chained to our desks, or to our hospitals, or universities forever and ever.

We knew that that day was going to come. We didn’t necessarily know when that was going to be. But we started saving and thinking accordingly for that knowing that it would come. And so, there was an aspect of having a financial plan that we started to put in place.

Moving forward, I’ll say, like many people, we did get to the pandemic and kind of said to ourselves, “As our jobs were changing and our careers were changing, are these changes we wanted to make –” I mean, in some ways we made them because we had to. We all adjusted and so forth. But did we want to continue down this pathway? And I think we put some thought and energy into this.

And then now, I’m going to say we also sat down with a financial advisor. And actually, I’m going to mention just a little bit thinking about finances. Because, of course, there is a financial aspect to be able to make these decisions. Like I said, my wife and I had started saving. And we are savers. That’s part of our culture.

I remember one time you posted on one of your blogs or something, what’s the most fun thing one can do when you’ve got some extra money? And I think I remember my comment to that post was save it. And to some people that might not seem the most exciting thing in the world. But when I can take that money and put it in the bank, that tells me that I’m going to have that for – I’m going to be able to make decisions in a future based on having made that decision now to save that money. And it’s going to give me options that I know other people might not have if they didn’t save that money.

Like I said, we were pretty good savers. That said, we didn’t have – let’s say, we didn’t have a sense of when halftime was or how we were actually going to go about making that decision. And so, in some ways I was really fortunate that a financial planner, so to speak, somewhat fell into my lab.

My parents had set up a life insurance policy for me when I was born. Like, many families do with their kids. And it was a whole life policy that had a relatively small cash value. But let’s just say a number of years later somebody from that company reached out to me and said, “Have you thought about your retirement and retirement planning?” And for years I just kind of put them off thinking, “Oh, you’re just somebody trying to sell me more insurance or something like that.” And didn’t pay much attention to them.

But then, ultimately, we just kind of – I’ll give him credit for his persistence. But every year, he came back and touched base. How’s things going and all that kind of stuff? And then ultimately kind of said – it kind of hit me that, “Yeah, I could really benefit the perspective from somebody like this.”

Because like I said, I’ve done – I’m a pretty informed investor so to speak. I’ve done a pretty good job of saving and thinking about where my money was going to go, and making our money work the best for us and all that kind of stuff. But that still doesn’t give us necessarily a sense of when can you say it’s half time? And when can you make that decision?

Tom, our financial advisor, really helped us with that thought process. And I’ll say I remember this very well because it was January 2021. We’d all been living through the pandemic for the better part of that year. And he just kind of sat down with us and said, “Well, okay, given what you’ve saved to this point, if you guys decided today if you wanted to not continue to do the jobs you’re doing right now and start living off of your savings based on the lifestyle that you have, of course. The spending patterns that you have and everything. He told us, essentially, you could live within – you could live to be 95 and you have a 95% chance of not running out of money. And we kind of thought to ourselves, “Wow! That’s a really good thing to hear.”

And just having that conversation really kind of opened up our eyes to, “Well, what could we do? What are the things?” Not so much the things that we felt like we had to do, but what do we want to do? Where could we go from here? And I think that’s where we really started saying, “Okay, this is – we’re going to start moving down this path.”

I mean, I didn’t – needless to say, didn’t immediately go to my boss and say I’m leaving. We had a very good conversation about how this was going to look. And honestly, it was more than a year and a half after I had that conversation. I didn’t officially retire from Northeastern until this past August. We had that conversation. My wife had that conversation with her folks at our hospital. And then we started planning for what our next phase of our life is going to be.

We started thinking where do we want to be? Do we want to stay in the Northeast? Or do we want to start thinking about other parts of the country that we might want to live in and so forth? We landed on Denver is where we decided we wanted to be. We started going through the work of preparing to sell our places in the Northeast and find a place to live in Colorado.

And I’m going to add real estate to that mix of your financial picture that you go through in making these decisions about what your total financial picture is. Because we’ve always thought of our homes not just as a place to live but as an investment that we are going to buy and hopefully sell for more than we paid for them at some point.

But we went ahead and started making those decisions and putting that into motion. And as of last March, or this past March, we made the move from Boston to Denver. nd I’ve been very happy that we made that move. It’s worked out very well for us.

[00:23:59] TU: Let me ask for, I suspect, some pre-retirees that are listening thinking, “Ugh! Dave, I love the story and the journey.” Maybe they even look at their numbers and say, “I think it’s there.” But then they are living the reality of 8%,9% inflation, market volatility. There’s so much discussion out there of when you retire and what the market’s doing can have a long-term impact on returns and how you mitigate that risk around retirement. Talk us through – for you, obviously, we can plan scenarios. I don’t know if any of us were planning for this type of inflation volatility.

[00:24:35] Dr. DZ: Well, that’s a really good point. And believe me, I’ve had some thoughts about what we’ve gone through and in terms of the timing. I mean, when I think about even what the environment was back in early 2021 where in some ways, yeah, the stock market was starting to come back pretty strong at that time. Inflation was still pretty low. Interest rates were really low.

One of the things – Needless to say, we go into an environment now. One of the things my financial advisor advised us of. And I can’t begin to tell you what a good piece of advice this was, was to be reasonably liquid going into what essentially will be your first year of – I’ll keep using the word preferment because I’m just not convinced that I’m retired.

But he said, “Basically, you want to have a year’s worth of spending money, liquids, such that you don’t have to sell stocks in order to be able to have money to live on essentially.”

And I’ll say this, it was actually relatively easy for us to be able to do that not just with some of our financial instruments that we had been using. We used them for a variety of instruments. I mean, from equity, to bonds and other types of things that everyone else uses. But again, this was the aspect of buying and selling real estate. We owned two properties outright in Massachusetts – one in Massachusetts. One in Maine. And when we sold those, we were able to purchase a home in Denver, as well as have a little bit of cash on hand.

And having that cash on hand has made things a lot easier. Now, no one likes 8%, 9% inflation of course. And it’s certainly taken a little bit of a bite out of that cash at hand. But it’s also saved us from having to go and sell stocks at a time where stocks have taken like in the past year – What? A 20% dive.

The one thing, thinking about stocks – I mean, I have confidence that the markets will come back. I’ve seen markets go down before and they’ve always come back. And looking at our economy and the things that underpin it, the market will come back. I don’t know exactly when and how it will. If I knew that, I probably wouldn’t be doing the preferment thing. I’d be making a lot more money as a financial advisor.

But anyway – but I had that confidence that it will. And with that confidence I know that essentially the way we have things structured, this combination of different assets that we’re utilizing to be able to make these decisions. It’s not just one type of asset class that you look at. It’s not just your 401k, for example. There’s a variety of different ways that we can get to what we’re doing.

And you know what? Another thing, just to get to think about this preferment thing, too. I mean, preferment does not mean not working or no income. It’s likely going to mean different types of things. I mean, I’ll say, as I’ve moved into this phase, I’m doing what most of us would call consulting work. I’m working with a couple of different universities right now. I want to add some teaching stuff. I want to add some more administrative stuff. Helping them deal with some issues that they’re dealing with and so forth.

And, again, just utilizing the expertise that I’ve developed over the years to be able to do some things. I mean, it’s bringing in a small amount of income. Definitely not as much as I was making when I was working full-time. But that’s okay. I don’t need as much as I was working full-time.

My wife’s in the same position. I mean, she is a pharmacist. She could go back and work as a pharmacist. I mean, especially right now, there’s lots of demand. She could. I don’t actually know if that’s really what she wants to do. She’s been telling me that her next job may be working at a Trader Joe’s. And for her, that, again, this could be the perfect thing for her.

[00:29:02] TU: Store discount. Bonus. Right?

[00:29:03] Dr. DZ: Exactly. Exactly. Believe me, that comes in handy. But again, that’s the sense of my wife and I were both very money pharmacists. We were well-compensated people. We were not hurting for income. But I just took a step back and said, “I don’t need or even want to live my life where I have to depend on having that level of income for the rest of my life. I just looked at it and said, “I can do the things I want to do and live a very good life on not having that level of income.”

[00:29:44] TU: Yeah. And that takes me – Dave, I’ve been thinking as you’re talking, you’ve said several things that have caught my attention. Your somewhat inherent behavior around saving. Really, this mindset around, “If I had an option to spend extra money, I’d save it because I could think about the growth and delay gratification into the future.” And those are a sneak peek into a mindset around how we think about and how we handle our money.

And it feels like, as you’re talking, that this is something that has been ingrained in you for a long time either through personal interest, research, family experience, whatever may be the case.

[00:30:20] Dr. DZ: We were talking a little bit about this before we came online. I mean, it’s almost fair to say I’ve been thinking about this essentially from the time I was born. Because I was born into a family of savers essentially. I like to use the example of my folks – again, like I said, my father was an accountant who went to work in the dairy industry in Wisconsin. And my mother was a teacher. Between the two of them, they had a decent middle-class income, of course, and everything. But again, always saved. Part of it was to be able to save to send myself and my two brothers to college, which again I cannot begin to tell you how fortunate I was to be able to have parents who had saved for our college education and then gave us that ability to be able to start our lives without the debt that I know that many of our students have today as they’re getting that education. That, again, I know that I was so fortunate. And I’m very thankful to my parents for that.

But even more than that, it created a mindset in me that I saw what they did to be able to not only to provide a college education for me and my brothers, but to create the life for themselves as well. And my dad also retired at the age of 57. And now, – And again, retirement for him wasn’t retirement. It was. And I’ll still say is. Because my dad’s 82-years-old and is still doing this. It’s very much preferment.

My dad was – Like I said, he’s an account who had always specialized in tax. And while he was working in the dairy industry, he started doing people’s taxes during tax season. And then when he decided he didn’t want to work in the dairy industry anymore, he just said, “Well, what am I going to do?” He just essentially start – his side gig has been doing taxes. And he still has about 200 clients to this day, including myself.

[00:32:32] TU: In his 80s, right?

[00:32:32] Dr. DZ: In his 80s. It is that – I’ll say for this. It’s that great mental thing for him. It keeps him very engaged. A matter of fact, every year, this time of year actually, he goes back to tax school. It’s like a one-week seminar that he goes and learns about like, “Okay, what are all the new tax codes?” and all the new things that he needs to be able to work with people as a tax advisor on and all that kind of stuff.

And so, every year he goes to just that. And every year he shares it with me and tells me what I should be doing and how I should be preparing myself financially and that kind of stuff. But again, I just give so much credit to my parents because they had instilled in me mindsets about the value of saving and about just think about your finances really is just another one of our tools in our toolbox so to speak. It’s not an end of in itself. It’s a means to an end.

We have money and we manage our money because we want to be able to live a life that’s meaningful to us. And however that is, I’m not here to judge how one spends their money or what one does with their money. So long as you’ve got the money to be able to do it, that’s our choices. It’s your choices to be able to do that how you wish. But it’s just having those tools and having that mindset to be able to make those decisions has been a really great thing.

I remember probably likely somebody we both know, Karen [inaudible 00:34:13]. I went to graduate school with Karen back at Ohio State. She introduced me back, and I want to say this was probably 1990, 1991, to this little financial tool called Quicken.

And I have to think back. Back in 1990, ’91, I don’t know if you remember the Macintosh computers that were literally like these cubes. And so, I got one of the first versions of Quicken for Mac that was – it started – And honestly, it was this way of tracking your finances. Tracking how you use your money. Doing the checkbook thing but doing it on the register on Quicken and everything. And then the fact that it keeps track of everything.

I mean, I’m pretty proud to say now, I – what is it now? 30 some years later, I have – I still use Quicken to this day. And I have a record of my financial transactions that goes back over 30 years. And that’s been valuable to me. I mean, I can’t say that I go back and look at every transaction from 1992. But it does tell me when – let’s say if my financial advisor wanted to know, “What kind of money do you need to live on?” so to speak. Well, I had that data. I could get those answers relatively easily. And that’s been – Again, one of my bits of advice is whether it be Quicken or any of the other tools out there that help us get in that picture of ourselves financially, utilize those tools. I say I probably put one to two hours every other week into managing my various aspects of my finances. And for me, that’s always been time very well spent.

[00:36:14] TU: Yes. Yeah. And the consistency and compound effect of that is huge over time. And it’s interesting, you’re talking about tools and Quicken. Here in 2022, obviously, there are more tools than ever, apps, that will help us, software tools. But I would argue, some of the mindset and behavior, it is getting harder and harder just because of all the things that are competing –

[00:36:39] Dr. DZ: Or time and attention.

[00:36:40] TU: Yeah, tracking, easier execution I think is even becoming a little bit harder. Let me ask you one final question. I know we have some new practitioners that are listening. You obviously work closely with students and new grads as well. But folks that are feeling the headwind financially despite obviously making a good income, having a good potential for their income into the future but they’re facing large student loan debts. They’re looking at potentially the housing market and wanting to buy a home in this market. Inflation. Tim and Dave, you’re telling me I need to start saving early and max out my retirement accounts. I need an emergency fund. I need to get rid of my credit card debt. Just overwhelming, right? What advice would you have for those folks about some of the early wins and behaviors and habits that they can employ?

[00:37:32] Dr. DZ: I think you nailed it right there. Early wins. One step at a time. Rather than getting overwhelmed by all of these things that are hitting you. Focus on one thing that you can do that you can impact.

Yeah, a good example would be like my wife. Or my wife and I, shortly after we got married, she did have a little bit of college loan debt. And she was somebody – she had gotten a bachelor’s degree. She went to graduate school. And then she decided to go to pharmacy school. And so, it took her a little longer to go down that path. And she had a little bit of financial debt. We decided to focus – to prioritize on paying down that debt. It was the highest interest debt that we had.

And we did the things that we had to, which in the short term, yeah, everyone probably meant making some sacrifices. There were some vacations we didn’t go on. Maybe we bought the used car rather than the new car or something like that. There are all the little things that one does to be able to then have a little bit more money to put in the areas that you want to prioritize.

So, whether it’d be paying down student loan debt, or sitting to make a down payment on a house, or all the other things. I mean, the great news is, as pharmacists, we are relatively high-income folks. We have access to funds. It’s just a matter of how we decide to utilize those funds.

But, yeah, should focus on that one thing. Don’t get overwhelmed by all of the different things and thinking to myself, “Oh, gosh. There’s so much going on here. How am I going to handle all of this?” You can handle things. Do one thing at a time. Then use that leverage, that success you have in doing one thing. So, then go do the next thing.

[00:39:22] TU: Yeah, I love that, Dave. I talk a lot with new practitioners about that early momentum. And while any one financial decision or win may not feel monumental in the moment, it’s the compound effect in the momentum that comes from that over time. And there’s a natural excitement of like, “Okay, small win. What’s next?” Another win, what’s next? What’s next? And you look back three, five, ten years later, and some of those behaviors start to really compound and add up over time.

[00:39:49] Dr. DZ: Oh, that’s the one thing. I remember back, I was thinking in high school, you learn about compound interest. And the idea that interest builds on interest builds on interest. And again, I think about 30, 40 years into my career span, so to speak. The decisions we made very early on are definitely paying dividends today and how they do things.

Now, that said, I also don’t want to turn off or upset your readers who maybe aren’t that young anymore or maybe thinking of themselves, “Gee! I didn’t do that when I was you know 25-years-old. What am I going to do?” It’s never too late to start. And there’s a lot that one can do to make good financial decisions even – again, another really good habit I picked up from my parents is while I have credit cards and use them liberally, it’s with the sense of never – my dad just instilled in me. You will pay off your credit card in full every month. You will never carry a balance on these cards.

And that’s, again, always just been part of my mindset, that I use a credit card. I get that bill out of it every – Actually, I don’t even get a bill obviously. Everything’s electronic these days. And honestly, it’s automatically withdrawn from my checking account. But I – essentially, I use the credit that’s available. Credit is not necessarily a bad thing. I’m not one of these people who will say never use credit cards. Or don’t take out interests. And don’t take out loans. I mean, heck, a lot of us, the reality is we wouldn’t go to college. We wouldn’t be able to buy a home if we didn’t take out debt. Debt can and is a good thing. It just has to be used in balance with everything else. Because if it’s not in balance, it will take over in a not so good way.

[00:41:55] TU: Well, this has been fantastic. I knew it would. And it’s delivered. And I’m excited to get this out to our community. And really excited, Dave, for you in this next phase of your preferment. I think I’m going to adopt that term.

[00:42:09] Dr. DZ: That’s a great thing. I do think Lucinda and I should get together and write a book on preferment. But as always, one of the great things about being an educator is – you know, Tim, is you – it’s not just the impact you make on students when they’re in your classroom. It’s the impact you see as their careers move forward.

And I’ve been so blessed and fortunate to be able to stay in touch with many of my former students and not only see the successes they’re having and the things that they’re achieving in their lives, but to be able to share what we’re all doing and so forth. And to that end, I hope some of my former students are out there and are seeing this. And I would love to be able to stay in touch if there are things that I can share more with your listeners about how one prepares to get to the point in this life. The thing, decisions that we make as we get to this point.

I will still say, keeping on our football analogy, it’s still half time. And my wife and I are sitting in the locker room still making those plans for what we’re going to go out and do in the third quarter. And just like I’m offering advice to some folks. I’m also appreciating advice from people who have been down this pathway ourselves. And whether it’d be books or whether it’d be other folks that have made similar decisions to what we have. There’s a lot to learn. And to me, that’s always been the best part about the academic path, is it’s not the teaching. It’s the learning.

[00:43:45] TU: Absolutely.

[00:43:46] Dr. DZ: And the more that we can learn, the better off we’ll all be.

[00:43:49] TU: Well, that’s great. We’ll link to, in the show notes, your LinkedIn if folks aren’t already connecting with you. I know that’s a way they can reach out. All right. Thanks again, Dave. I really appreciate it.

[00:43:58] Dr. DZ: Thank you. Appreciate it a lot. Thank you very much.

[OUTRO]

[00:44:01] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the date publish. Such information may contain forward-looking statements are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacists.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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