behavioral finance

YFP 356: Love and Money: How to Successfully Navigate your Finances with a Partner

Posted on April 25, 2024April 25, 2024 by YFP Media

Tim Ulbrich, PharmD (YFP Co-Founder & CEO) digs into how to successfully navigate finances with your partner and shares 25 questions you can use to frame conversations around money.

This episode is brought to you by First Horizon.

Episode Summary

On this episode, we’re talking about love and money! Discussing finances with your spouse, partner or significant other can be tricky sometimes. Tim Ulbrich shares 25 financial discussion questions to help you navigate these important conversations along with a free resource you can download to help get you started. From reflecting on your “money classroom” and the way you were raised to understand money to how you feel about debt, savings, and other important goals, Tim guides you through these important conversations. There is no one-size-fits all to managing finances in a relationship – but sharing the same vision and goals with your partner can set you up for success. This episode is brought to you by First Horizon.

About Today’s Guest

Tim Ulbrich is the Co-Founder and CEO of Your Financial Pharmacist. Founded in 2015, YFP is a fee-only financial planning firm and connects with the YFP community of 15,000+ pharmacy professionals via the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast podcast, blog, website resources and speaking engagements. To date, YFP has partnered with 75+ organizations to provide personal finance education.

Tim received his Doctor of Pharmacy degree from Ohio Northern University and completed postgraduate residency training at The Ohio State University. He spent 9 years on faculty at Northeast Ohio Medical University prior to joining Ohio State University College of Pharmacy in 2019 as Clinical Professor and Director of the Master’s in Health-System Pharmacy Administration Program.

Tim is the host of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast which has more than 1 million downloads. Tim is also the co-author of Seven Figure Pharmacist: How to Maximize Your Income, Eliminate Debt and Create Wealth. Tim has presented to over 200 pharmacy associations, colleges, and groups on various personal finance topics including debt management, investing, retirement planning, and financial well-being.

Key Points from the Episode

Navigating finances with a partner, identifying money personalities, and setting goals. [0:00]
Financial planning for pharmacists, merging money personalities in relationships. [1:49]
Money personalities and setting financial goals. [5:50]
Financial goals, budgeting, and spending plan for couples. [10:39]
Financial goals, debt management, housing, transportation, and children’s education. [14:57]
Financial planning with a partner, including goals, investing, and retirement planning. [20:04]
Financial planning and management strategies for couples. [24:32]

Episode Highlights

“I think it’s really important that we spend time to reflect on and identify our money personality and how this does or does not match with our partner. For some of you that have been at this topic for a while, you know how emotional and how behavioral this whole topic of managing money can be. And so it’s important we spend time to reflect on and to get curious about what our money approach is.” – Tim Ulbrich [4:13]

“It’s really helpful that we reflect upon what is the approach that we have surrounding money? How might that have been influenced by the money classroom that we grew up in? The more we can understand that about ourselves, as well as our partner, and how we bring those characteristics into the relationship can be really helpful as we set a plan going forward.” – Tim Ulbrich [8:03]

“Is everything merged when it comes to the finances? Might we have some things separate? Some things merged? Of course, that’s an individual decision for everyone. But ultimately, on some level, we want to have a shared vision, even if some of those items might be separate.” – Tim Ulbrich [8:38]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody Tim Ulbrich and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week we’re talking love and money how to successfully navigate your finances with a significant other spouse or partner. Easier said than done right? During the show, I discuss how to identify with your money personality and how this does or does not match with your partner strategies for setting and achieving goals together 25 financial questions and discussions that every couple should have? Hang with me. I’ll give you a resource and a link to download those questions and advice from the YFP community on what has and has not worked for them in their own journey, navigating this important topic with their partner.

Tim Ulbrich 00:45

Now before we jump into this week’s episode, I have a hard truth for you to hear. Making a six figure income is not a financial plan. Yes, you’ve worked hard to get where you are today. Yes, you’re earning a good income. But have you ever wondered, Am I on track to retire? How do I prioritize and fund all these competing financial goals that I have? How do I plan financially for big upcoming life events and changes such as moving, having a baby, changing jobs, getting married or retiring? And perhaps why am I not as far along financially at this point in my career as I thought I would be? Well, maybe the answer is that your six figure income is not a financial plan. As a pharmacist, you have an incredible tool in your toolbox: that’s your salary. But without a vision and a plan that it good income will only go so far. That’s why we started Your Financial Pharmacist where YFP we support pharmacists at every stage of their careers to take control their finances, reach their financial goals, and build wealth through comprehensive fee only financial planning and tax planning. Our team of certified financial planners works with pharmacists all across the United States and helps our clients set their future selves up for success while living a rich life today. If you’re ready to see how YFP can support you on your financial journey, you can learn more by visiting your financial pharmacist.com/learn again, that’s your financial pharmacist.com/learn. Alright, let’s hear from today’s sponsor First Horizon and then we’ll jump into the show.

Tim Ulbrich 02:16

Does saving 20% for a down payment on a home feel like an uphill battle? It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high student loan debt, meaning that saving 20% for a down payment on a home may take years. For several years now we’ve been partnering First Horizon who offers a professional home loan option AKA a doctor or pharmacist loan that requires a 3% downpayment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers, has no PMI and offers a 30-year fixed rate mortgage on home loans up to $766,550 in most areas. The pharmacists home loan is available in all states except Alaska and Hawaii, and can be used to purchase condos as well. However, rates may be higher and a condo review has to be completed. To check out the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to start the pre-approval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com /home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

Tim Ulbrich 03:20

Hi there, Tim Ulbrich here flying solo this week as we talk about love and money: how to successfully navigate your finances with a partner. Now first things first, this is a heavy topic right? And I do not have all the answers. When it comes to our financial plan for Jess and I we have found the system- keyword system -that works best for us. But we are far from perfect. We’ve made our fair share of mistakes. We haven’t always been on the same page. And it certainly has required compromise and grace on both sides. So this is not a preach and teach episode. That would be very helpful. Rather, the intent is to give you some things to think about and conversation starters, to find the system that works best for you. Because at the end of the day, that’s going to be what matters most.

Now, before we jump into some of the tactical strategies, and some of the questions and conversation starters, I think it’s really important that we spend time to reflect on and identify our money personality and how this does or perhaps does not match with our partner. Right for some of you that have been at this topic for a while, you know how emotional and how behavioral this whole topic of managing money can be. And so it’s important we spend time to reflect on and to get curious about what is our money approach? What is our money, personality? What is our money classroom that we grew up in the household that we grow up in financially? And how does that perhaps shape how we manage our money today and ultimately how we merge two of those money personalities together as we try to work and get on the same page. So some questions to think about here as it relates to the money personality. Do you approach money in the same manner that you were raised? Have you reflected upon the money classroom that you grew up in? And maybe what worked and didn’t work? Was money in your household an open conversation? Was it a closed conversation? Was it stressful? Was it calm? What was the emotional tone surrounding money? Was there transparency around money? Or was it a taboo topic? What were the spending habits, what was said? And what were some of the unsaid lessons that you learned along the way? And how did all of this potentially contribute to the money personality and the habits that you employ today that you ultimately bring into your relationship? Right, good and bad. Probably true for all of us.

If you want some guidance on this, there’s a great resource, we’ll link to it in the show notes. The Money Couple has five different money personalities, they have a book and an assessment if you want to really dig in and go further on this topic. And they in that resource they referenced five money personalities, those five personalities are number one, the Security Seeker. Number two, is the Saver; number three is the Spender; number four is the Risk Taker; and number five is the Flyer. Now, anytime we do these assessments, right, we’re running a risk a little bit in terms of bucketing ourselves into one of these approaches, when often we may have a little bit of more than one of these. And that’s one of the things I like about this tool is they combine two of these, what they call a primary and a secondary to come up with your money profile. So for example, let’s say that you identify as a saver/security seeker. Okay, so just some quick definitions here a saver, pretty much their outlook is that as they share in their own resources, A penny saved is a penny earned. You make things happen by getting the best deal, right, you can often be someone that’s very thrifty. Characteristics of a saver would be someone who’s trustworthy organized with money, they also would have some real challenges potentially, including maybe obsessing over money, having a hard time letting go. And they would rarely spend compulsively, they really liked the plan. And they really liked that good deal. Now a Security Seeker, which here was the secondary personality, they have an outlook that better safe than sorry, right protection and security is the definition here. So these individuals make things happen by planning for the future. And they’re often very well prepared. So some defining characteristics here would be they can investigate things thoroughly do a lot of research challenges, of course, could be, you know, some of the potential and again, letting, letting go. And maybe finding that balance that we often talk about in the show of living the rich life along the way. Certainly also trustworthy with their finances, they want to make decisions by confirming that there’s a plan, right? So they’re not, they’re not gonna be very spontaneous, and they’re spending money like to have multiple options. This is just one example, one assessment. But it’s really helpful, again, that we get curious that we reflect upon what is the approach that we have surrounding money, how might that have been influenced by the money classroom that we grew up in, and the more we can understand that about ourselves, as well as our partner, and how we bring those characteristics into the relationship can be really helpful, as we then set a plan going forward.

Tim Ulbrich 08:27

So once we really think about some of those money, personalities, you know, I think it’s then that we want to really figure out how can we set and achieve goals together? Now we’re gonna get into a little bit about, you know, perhaps is it everything is merged when it comes to the finances? Might we have something separate? Some things merged, completely separate. Of course, that’s an individual decision for everyone. But ultimately, on some level, we want to have a shared vision, even if some of those items might be separate. And I think it’s so important, I’ve talked about this on the show before, that we start with the vision, and not necessarily start with the budget or the spending plan, right? Not start in the weeds, but really start on what is the dream that we have financially? What does success look like for us collectively as a unit? And can we agree upon that vision, that direction, that dream that we have for us financially, right? That’s a much, I say, easy but easier conversation than getting into the individual decisions. This is also the place where we really want to get all of those goals, all of those ideas out of our heads onto paper, we want to see what overlaps what doesn’t overlap. Obviously, there’s gonna be some compromise here along the way, but once we get them to be shifting from unsaid to said, right, so Jess can share her goals, I can share my goals, we can see what what is similar, what’s different, and then we can begin to start to compromise and prioritize those. That’s really where we can start to then begin to implement and execute on that vision. So for us, I’ve shared this before on the show, typically what we do is want once a year we’re looking at, hey, what does success look like for us over the next 12 months? Right? Keeping the bigger vision in mind? What does success look like for the next 12 months? And what are those things that we want to focus on spending? You know, so we’re looking at, hey, are we on track with savings goals for the future? And retirement planning? If not, what are some things that we want to surplus in the following year? What do some of the experiences look like for us in terms of vacations, home projects, things like that? What are the giving goals for the year right? These are the things that we need to begin to, again, get out of our heads onto paper so we can start to set a plan. Now, I think it’s really helpful here, especially if you have two individuals that are on completely different pages that this is really really where a third party can be very helpful. I know for Jess and I, our financial planner at YFP has been really helpful in getting us to have conversations not only together when we’re in the room with a financial planner, but also in between those meetings to make sure that this is an open conversation as we can possibly have. Now, I have some questions here that I think are good conversation starters. Right? I started the episode by saying this is not about telling you what you should do. This is really about helping to start conversations, stimulate some discussion so that you can figure out what the system is that works best for you. So I’ve organized these questions into different areas. And I have 25 of them, I’m just going to mention them briefly. And we have a one page resource that you can download for free that will have a list of these questions. You can go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/25 – two five again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/25.

Tim Ulbrich 11:43

Okay, so in the spirit of starting conversations, here are 25 financial discussions that I think are worth having. And let’s start with the first bucket, which is setting goals, budgeting and just the overall approach to managing the finances. So the first question is, have we discussed and agreed upon our short term, midterm and long term financial goals? Now you can define these differently, I think of short term goals is within the next 12 months, next year, mid-term, one to three years in long-term greater than three years. Obviously, you can determine the timeline that makes the most sense of you. And then furthermore, how can we best set, review and update these on a regular basis? So there’s that initial exercise, and then how often are we going to be reviewing these so that we can make sure we are able to implement those in the plan? Sounds simple, right. But everything starts with the vision and getting to some level of an agreement on the shared goals.

Second question here is have we developed and agreed upon monthly spending plan, budget, whatever you want to call it, that accounts for all of the income and all the expenses? And does this spending plan, budget, again, whatever you want to call it, does it represent and include the goals that we just worked through in the first question? Now, again, for some individuals, and I’ll share some data here in a little bit from our community, for some individuals, everything is merged. Some they have some separate, some is completely separate. So obviously, you have to work through this as it relates to how you treat the merging or lack thereof of the accounts. But do we have representation within our spending plan, approach, whatever that looks like lots of different ways to do that. So that the goals, there’s an actual plan to implement and achieve those goals.

Question number three, does one of us take more of the lead than the other when it comes to managing the finances? And if so, are both of us aware of our overall situation? How do we ultimately make sure that both parties are aware of the progress if one person is taking the lead. I have seen that that often, not always, often is the case where one person may take the lead. So if that’s the case, what’s the plan? What’s the strategy? What’s the structure so that both parties are aware of what’s going on? And the overall progress? Right, the overall situation?

Number four, I’ve alluded to this a couple times is the desire to merge all of our finances; to keep some separate, some merged; or to have everything completely separate. Now for Jess and I, we’ve made the decision that everything’s merged, I’m not here to tell you that you should do that, or that’s the only way. But really having that conversation of what’s best for us, is it all merge is a little bit of both, or is it everything that would be completely separate. Number five, do we need to check with one another before spending any money? If so, is it a certain amount? What’s the criteria for this? How do we determine this. Some, you know, couples might have a large purchase or something that would trigger hey, we need to have a discussion about this. So what are those criteria, if any exist when it comes to making some of those bigger purchases? So that’s the first group of questions around setting goals. budgeting and your overall approach.

Tim Ulbrich 15:01

The second group of questions is around debt management. Debt Management. So question number six here on our list of 25. is how much debt have we acquired thus far? Right? Do we know? Do we know the numbers? Is everyone aware of the debt that’s that’s accrued? And what will be our plan to pay off the debt? Do we both understand each other’s debt position and the feelings perhaps just as important, the feelings towards the debt? Right, for some people, I’ve talked about this on the show before for some people, there can be a significant aversion to debt? Others maybe that’s not the case. So if you have two individuals where you have opposite feelings on debt, that’s an important conversation to have. Are we treating this as our debt? Or is this separate debt? Right? When you think about things like credit card debt, student loans, car payments, or other things that especially may have been existing coming into the relationship. Number seven, again, on debt management, how comfortable are we with having debt? And I would encourage you to break this down further to different types of debt, right, including student loans, credit card, mortgages, car loans, etc. So not just a blanket debt good or bad, but how do we feel about different types of debt? And then final question on debt? Number eight on our list is do we view each other’s debt as our debt? Or is this your debt? Right? And how does that potentially approach how we pay that off? All right, third group of questions is around housing and transportation. So question nine on our list is how do we feel about renting property versus owning a home hot topic right now, given where the housing market is at, given where home prices are and where interest rates are at? And if we already own a home, are we okay with the current situation? Or is there potentially a desire to move? Right? Again, we want to get a lot of these questions and maybe things that we’re thinking about making sure we have an opportunity to discuss with one another. So if we don’t own a home already, how do we feel about renting versus owning a home? What’s that timeline? Like if we already own a home? Are we thinking we’re set? Or is there a potential or desire to move? Next question around housing transportation, number 10 on our list, if currently renting, and there’s a goal to own a home, do we agree on the location, on the purchase price, and the amount of downpayment that would be needed, right? That’s gonna have a big impact on the budget. And again, if things are separate, and not merge, how are we both contributing to that downpayment? And getting ready for that purchase? Number 11, as relates to transportation? Do we view our cars as a necessity? Is it a luxury where we lease? Are we gonna buy our cars? If we buy our cars? Are we paying them outright? Are we going to finance part of it? How do we view the transportation part of the plan? And again, let me pause here and reinforce what I was saying towards the beginning. I don’t really think there’s a right or wrong answer here. The goal is to really get you thinking about, hey, how do we feel individually? How do we feel collectively as a unit? You know, as I think about this question here on transportation, it reminds me of Ramit Sethi’s book, I Will Teach You To Be Rich. I’ve referenced that many times on the show before and one of the things he talks about he starts the book is this concept called Money Dials. And what he’s referring to there is identifying those things that derive the most significance and meaning for you as a part of the financial plan and have a plan to spend money, what he’s referring to is the dial, dial that up. And alternately for the things that you maybe don’t care as much about financially, dial that down, right. For some people, you know, transportation cars may be something that’s has significant value, and for other people, not so much.

Tim Ulbrich 18:35

Alright, next group of questions relates to kids, children. So number 12 on our list is how do we feel about one of the biggest expenses we often see in the financial plan – daycare? What’s our budget for this? And how does it fit in with other financial goals? Number 13, how do we feel about public versus private K through 12? education? You know, again, this might certainly link back to the home purchase and the location and and where you’re looking for home based on schools. And if it is private education is the goal, how will we plan for this and prioritize it with other financial goals? Number 14, again, in this area of children, how do we feel about paying for our kids college? This is a hot topic, right? You often see maybe people that are split on this. And how do we plan for this? Are we hoping to pay for it in its entirety? A partial amount? Are we banking on you know, scholarships or other funding other family to help taking on debt? What’s the plan for that? And then last question, as it relates to children, what ideas and strategies do we want to employ to teach our kids about managing money? Right? We started this episode talking about the money classroom we grew up in. And for those that have children in the home that you’re raising now, they’re obviously growing up in their own money classroom in your house. And so what strategies are we employing and how are we approaching teaching kids about money? What’s our philosophy about behind that, right. So this this gets to things like, you know, our philosophy around alarm allowances, and giving, and how we’re going to teach some of those lessons to our kids. And at what ages are they ready for those lessons?

All right, next group relates to saving, investing, and retirement planning. So question number 16, when it comes to the emergency fund, are we comfortable with three months? Right, your general rule of thumb recommendation three to six months of essential expenses? Are we comfortable with that? Three months, six months, something in between, something different? Have we discussed that? Again, are we on the same page with that?

Number 17, what financial goals are we trying to achieve by saving or investing? What does success look like, right? So we often talk about the importance of saving and investing for the future. But for what? What are we trying to achieve? And what does success look like? Number 18? What does retirement look like for both of us? Are there similarities? Are there differences? What’s the desired age? Right? What are the activities? What what are we working on? Which is the next question: what activities are we engaged in during retirement? What are we doing together? What are we doing separately? Right, beginning to envision so that we’re approaching that retirement phase with intentionality.

Next question, how much should we be saving and investing for retirement each month? And how do we balance and prioritizes with other goals? And then final question here on saving investing in retirement planning? What is our risk tolerance for investing? And again, if we have two different risk profiles? How are we approaching that as we’re saving, investing and planning for the future?

Final set of questions as a group, I’m just calling miscellaneous questions. Got four left on the list here. Number 22. How does each of us feel about giving? How much? How often?Where? How will we plan for this? And what priority? Are there certain things that we have to have achieved before we do this or not? Number 23: Do we plan to do the financial plan ourselves? Or are we looking to hire a professional to assist? Are we on the same page about this? If the goal is to hire someone, what are the criteria we’re going to use that will help us find the right fit? Who’s taking the lead in this conversation? What does that look like for us as a unit? When it comes to assisting family financially, whether that be caring for elderly parents, maybe that’s supporting a family member need or some other situation, how do we feel about this? Right? How do we feel about this financially, and the impact that it can have in other parts of our financial plan? And then finally, question number 25? How will we strike that balance between saving for the future and living a rich life today? What does it mean to us to be living that rich life today? And how are we prioritizing that in the financial plan?

So again, that’s 25 conversation starters, there’s a lot there, right, the different categories we talked about, you can download that list again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/25. I hope you’ll reference that maybe print it off, and have some of those discussions with your partner. Next, I want to give some input not just from me, but from the YFP community on what has and has not worked for them in their own journey of navigate navigating this topic with their partner.

So I recently posted a poll on LinkedIn asking the following question, that for those that are working with a significant other spouse or partner on their finances, which of the following best describes your situation: is everything merged or all the finances merged? Are some things merged something separate? Or is nothing merged? In essence, everything is separate. And what we saw from that data was just shy of 50%- 49% responded that all of the finances were merged. 42% responded that some were merged and some are separate. And 10% responded that nothing was merged, and that everything was separate in their accounts. Now, some of the comments and advice that I thought were helpful to pass on and again, some some different perspectives here. Kelly had this to say lots of systems can work. But it all starts with transparency. It’s not uncommon for one person in the household to do the bill pay, and thus see more of the transactions. Periodic money dates can help facilitate conversation. A favorite topic in our house is identifying mutual goals and where we want to prioritize funding for the year, sometimes their goals are not aligned. And that is important conversation, as well. So Kelly, comes transparency. Having that open conversation having those periodic money does it dates and sometimes those goals aren’t aligned, and important conversation to get on the same page. Tracy said that we have a joint household account, where we contribute an equal amount each month to cover our household expenses, and some minor rainy day savings. We tossed around percentage based on income but landed on equal flat dollar amount. We also have separate personal spending accounts for ourselves, so we don’t feel like we have to justify personal spending to one another. We’ve divvied up who contributes and covers what to each savings bucket and who does the insurance via their paycheck all this to say after typing this that our marriage is basically a business. I thought that was some humor to add in there as well. Cassidy said my husband, I follow the 50-30-20 budgeting process right now. We have a joint account where 50% of our income goes towards household expenses and joint purchases, a joint high yield savings where we both contribute 20% of our paycheck for larger goals. And then 30% goes in our fun money personal checking accounts. So far it’s working great ensures that we’re both contributing an equitable portion of our income.

Final one that came in is someone shared just got married in summer of 2023. My husband wanted to keep our finances separate, except for one joint checking to pay utilities out of. This came from seeing his parents get divorced about six years ago and had always fought about money. He did not want that to be us. So going into the marriage, we plan to keep our own savings. I that’s a great example before I go further with this one of how that upbringing, right, how that money classroom can impact how we approach our money today. She goes on to say that we’re now nine months married, and we’re getting ready to buy a house with the need to pay the mortgage, we’re rethinking finances and will likely be combining more of our money. He prefers a separate checking account for each item, such as utilities and mortgage, we still plan to keep the money we had pre-marriage as our own stock savings, mutual funds, etc. We have a joint credit card for joint expenses and groceries that’s worked well. We still have separate credit cards. Being upfront about money has been so important to us. We’ve had several long conversations about money, pre-marriage, and within the last few months to get us set up for success. So it sounds like here, there’s even some transition, as they’re getting ready to purchase a home. They’ve been married now just shy of a year, maybe perhaps more that’s moving into the joint accounts, but a system that they’re still working through.

So I appreciate all of those that contributed providing different ideas. So again, the spirit of this right is to identify that system that works best for you. Right works best for you and your partner, really accounting where we started with reflecting on and getting curious about what is the money mindset? What’s the money personality approach that I have? And do I have a good understanding of that for me, as well as my partner? Really coming up then with those shared goals? That vision we talked about? What does success look like in the short, mid and long term, and then beginning to work through those individual areas of the financial plan.

Tim Ulbrich 27:19

Well, certainly last but not least, as many of you know, we have a team of Certified Financial Planners at Your Financial Pharmacist that we offer fee-only financial planning and tax planning, we work with pharmacists all across the country. And certainly we’d love to have the opportunity to work with you. And we’d love to have an opportunity to talk more to see whether or not the services are a good fit. You can learn more about our fee-only financial planning services again at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/learn. Again, that’s your financial pharmacist.com/learn. I think, as I mentioned a couple times that third party, right, that third party can be so helpful to facilitate some of these conversations and to begin to execute on the different aspects of the financial plan. Well, thanks so much for listening, and have a great rest of your week.

Tim Ulbrich 28:05

Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again, thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists and the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% downpayment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers and has no PMI on a 30 year fixed rate mortgage. To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, and to get started with the pre approval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

Tim Ulbrich 28:51

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information to the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

Current Student Loan Refinance Offers

Advertising Disclosure

Note: Referral fees from affiliate links in this table are sent to the non-profit YFP Gives. Read the full advertising disclosure here.	Bonus	Starting Rates	About	YFP Gives accepts advertising compensation from companies that appear on this site, which impacts the location and order in which brands (and/or their products) are presented, and also impacts the score that is assigned to it. Company lists on this page DO NOT imply endorsement. We do not feature all providers on the market.
	$800* Loans* ≥150K = $800 100-149K = $450 <100K = $350	Variable: 5.28%+ APR (with autopay)* Fixed: 5.28%+ APR (with autopay)* *All bonus payments are by gift card. See terms	The "Kayak" of student loan refinancing, Credible displays personalized prequalified rates from multiple lenders	Check Rate
	$750* Loans ≥150K = $750* ≥50K-150k = $300	Fixed: 5.49%+ APR (with autopay)	A marketplace that compares multiple lenders that are credit unions and local banks	Check Rate
	$500* Loans ≥50K = $500	Variable: 4.99%+ (with autopay)* Fixed: 4.96%+ (with autopay)** Read rates and terms at SplashFinancial.com	Splash is a marketplace with loans available from an exclusive network of credit unions and banks as well as U-Fi, Laurenl Road, and PenFed	Check Rate

Recent Posts

[pt_view id=”f651872qnv”]

YFP 351: Legacy Planning 101: How to Build Your Legacy Folder

Posted on March 21, 2024March 21, 2024 by YFP Media

Tim Ulbrich discusses the importance of creating a legacy folder to organize essential financial documents for access during emergencies and peace of mind.

Episode Summary

In this episode, YFP Founder and CEO, Tim Ulbrich, delves into the critical aspect of establishing a “legacy folder” to efficiently organize essential financial documents and accounts. This folder serves as a vital resource in emergencies, streamlining access for loved ones and averting confusion or delays. Drawing from personal experience, Ulbrich shares how he and his wife maintain their financial plan and essential documents in a shared electronic folder and a secure physical safe at home, ensuring accessibility and peace of mind during unforeseen circumstances.

Tim explores the contents of the legacy folder, which encompass a comprehensive checklist, electronic copies, and hard copies of vital papers such as birth certificates and social security cards and other critical documents like insurance policies and estate planning materials.

Learn how to proactively organize your financial affairs to safeguard against unforeseen events, ultimately fostering financial peace of mind and security.

About Today’s Guest

Tim Ulbrich is the Co-Founder and CEO of Your Financial Pharmacist. Founded in 2015, YFP is a fee-only financial planning firm and connects with the YFP community of 15,000+ pharmacy professionals via the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast podcast, blog, website resources and speaking engagements. To date, YFP has partnered with 75+ organizations to provide personal finance education.

Key Points from the Episode

Building a legacy folder for financial peace of mind. [0:00]
Creating a “legacy folder” for financial documents. [2:36]
Important documents, insurance policies, estate planning, and car titles. [6:50]
Organizing financial documents for emergency situations. [14:59]

Episode Highlights

“So when it comes to why having a legacy folder is important. Getting organized with your financial records plays a significant role not necessary in terms of moving the needle on your net worth but in making sure you and others have access to all the information that you need to make informed decisions.” – Tim Ulbrich [2:24]

“Now, what is the legacy folder? So essentially the idea of a legacy folder, whether it’s a physical copy and electronic copy, or combination of both. It’s a place where you have all of your financial related documents. So in the event of an emergency, others will be able to quickly assess your financial situation and get access to all of the documents and accounts that pertain to your finances.” – Tim Ulbrich [4:07]

“Don’t underestimate the peace of mind and the clarity that can come from having this information collected.” -Tim Ulbrich [5:25]

“Once you get organized with your information, you’re going to be walking from that point of confidence, you’re going to feel prepared in taking action on other parts of your financial plan.” – Tim Ulbrich [16:49]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRO]

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I’m talking through Legacy Planning 101: How to Build your Legacy Folder and why it’s important. To assist with implementing this important step and your own financial plan, make sure to download the YFP Legacy Folder Checklist at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/legacy. This checklist includes a list of 15+ financial related documents that you can have a record of in your legacy folder. It helps you identify key parts of your financial plan that you may or may not have in place but need to get started. And it helps give you peace of mind knowing that in the event of an emergency, all of your financial documents are organized in in one location. Again, you can access that free checklist at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/legacy.

Tim Ulbrich 00:51

Now before we jump into today’s episode, I have a hard truth for you to hear making a six figure income is not a financial plan. Yes, you’ve worked hard to get where you are today. Yes, you’re earning a good salary. But have you ever wondered, am I on track to retire? How do I prioritize and fund all these competing financial goals that I have? How do I plan financially for big upcoming life events? Whether that be moving, having a child, changing jobs, getting married or retiring? And why am I not as far along financially at this point in my career, as perhaps I thought I should be? The answer your six figure income is not a financial plan. As a pharmacist, you have an incredible tool in your toolbox your salary, but without a vision and a plan that good income will only go so far. That’s in part why we started Your Financial Pharmacists back in 2015. At YFP we support pharmacists at every stage of their career to take control of their finances reach their financial goals and build wealth through comprehensive fee only financial planning and tax planning. Our team of professionals including certified financial planners and a CPA, work with pharmacists all across the US and help our clients set their future selves up for success while living their rich life today. Ready to see how Your Financial Pharmacist can support you on your financial journey? The next step is to book a free discovery call with our team by visiting YFPplanning.com Again, that’s YFPplanning.com Alright, let’s jump in today’s episode.

Tim Ulbrich 02:18

Hi there, Tim Ulbrich here. Welcome to this week’s episode of the YFP Podcast. I’m flying solo this week to discuss legacy planning 101: how to build your legacy folder and why it’s important. Now this episode is going to be a brief one. But I hope you can walk away with a specific action item or to relate it to your own financial plan. Whether that be to create a legacy folder if you don’t already have one or if you do to make sure that you look at it and update that information if it’s been a while. So when it comes to why having a legacy folder is important. Getting organized with your financial records plays a significant role not necessary in terms of moving the needle on your net worth, but in making sure you and others have access to all the information that you need to make informed decisions. Think for a minute about all the various financial accounts, documents, records, insurance policies, tax returns that you have right, the list quickly grows to be one that is overwhelming. And the more you operate in your own system, the easier it is to navigate for you. But unfortunately harder for others to unravel, should they have to do so in the future. Right? Think of a situation where in the event of an emergency, you have this beautiful system you’ve created, you know where all your accounts are all your files, all your passwords, but unfortunately, others aren’t able to readily access that and to make sense of that information.

That’s where the legacy folder concept comes in. I actually first heard of this idea, it’s not my idea, I first heard of it when taking Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University class, this was probably 15 years ago through our local church. And I remember walking away thinking, wow, that is so obvious, yet so important. And something that Jess and I hadn’t yet done at that point in our financial plan. Now, what is the legacy folder? so essentially the idea of a legacy folder, whether it’s a physical copy and electronic copy, or combination of both, which is what we have, and I’ll share more information about that. It’s a place where you have all of your financial related documents. So in the event of an emergency, others will be able to quickly assess your financial situation and get access to all of the documents and accounts that pertain to your finances. We just went through updating this – Jess and I did in our own financial plan, shifting everything to an electronic version with the exception of a couple things that we keep in a safe at home, so that in the event of something happening to Jess or I or both of us, those caring for our boys along with our financial planning team at YFP readily have access to all the necessary information that they would need.

So when I think of the importance of this, you know, it really is peace of mind but there’s a secondary part that we often don’t think about, which is it forces you to get organized right? When you go through this process, and I’ll talk about the different sections of our own legacy folder. When you go through this process, you quickly might realize, wow, I’ve got some areas of the plan that I need to clean up, I need to gather some information. And this like many other parts of the financial plan, sure, it takes a little bit of time to get set up. But once you have it set up, right, we’re then in that update or maintenance mode. And again, don’t underestimate the peace of mind and the clarity that can come from having this information collected. So what’s included in the legacy folder? Well, I mentioned our checklist before and if you didn’t already download that make sure to download the YFP legacy folder checklist, you can access that again, at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/legacy that will give you a good guide.

There’s no one right answer to this. So I’m going to talk through what we have in our legacy folder. And you can see maybe some of that makes sense. Or maybe you have other documents and sections that you would want to include. So here’s how we have it organized in a combination of a Google Drive a shared drive, and a safe at home with the password the master password to our One Password, which is the the password account that we use the password management account that we use, I have the master key password in a safe at home, along with some hard copies of some documents like birth certificate, social security card, etc. Those things are in the safe, everything else is stored electronically and anything that’s in the safe as referenced as such in the electronic documents so so keep that in mind to combination of an electronic folder we used to have this all in a paper copy it was in a blue folder, we used to joke with our my parents and our in laws that hey, if anything ever happens to Jess or I – get the blue folder! For obvious reasons, having everything in a hardcopy wasn’t ideal in terms of updating that as well as making sure that the integrity of documents stay in place.

Okay, so section one is what we call important documents. Okay, so these are birth certificates for Jess, for me, for our four boys, these are our social security cards for us and the boys, this is our marriage certificate. These are our passports. And these components, we keep in a fireproof safe at home, obviously, because the hardcopy is important to have. So that’s section one important documents.

Section two is insurance policies, and information. So this is something that we have to update. Some of these we have to update annually, others not so much. So for example, long term disability policies or term life policies unless something changes with those policies, you know, we’re not updating those on a regular basis. But this includes things like auto insurance policies, homeowners insurance policies, or umbrella insurance policy, or health insurance policies, long term disability insurance policies, and our term life insurance policies. And we have a couple of different term life policies and long term disability policies. So all of that is included here in section number two. Now, what I have done typically in the electronic version, is I’ll list these out. And then I have the the actual policy hyperlink. So it can be easily reference to get to the actual policy, right, whether that’s a term life, disability, or another type of insurance policy. So that’s section two insurance policies and information.

Section three is estate planning documents. So we have an electronic copy on the Google Drive folder, the shared folder, and then we have a hard copy of these as well, because of the wet signature that’s needed on these and each state is different. Ours is a wet signature with a note notarized copy. So we have a hard copy in the safe at home. So these include our revocable trust agreements, this is our healthcare power of attorney, this is our living will, our last will and testament, et cetera, a lot of work to be done here. Now, if you’re hearing those terms, and thinking, Wow, maybe I need to get my estate planning documents in place. We’re gonna be talking more about that on the podcast, but I would reference you back to Episode 222. We’ll link to that in the show notes, when we brought on a couple of attorneys to talk about why estate planning is such an important part of the financial plan, as well as Episode 310, when Tim Baker and I talked about dusting off the estate plan, so this is not a you set it and you’re done.

Again, most of the work is upfront. Sure, there’s an investment of time and money to get these documents created. Again, the value is in the process of getting these created. And then you’ll have to update these periodically. So Jess and I often joke that our youngest son, Bennett, he wasn’t named individually in our documents when we created the so I guess that’s how it goes right when you’re the fourth son in the family. So he’s represented – it does address future children. But it’s just funny that he’s not called out individually. So we’ve got some updating to do there. So that’s section three – estate planning documents. And again, we keep a hardcopy in the safe. And then we have an electronic version of that available as well.

Section four is car titles. Now I’m not sure how valuable these are based on the current conditions of our minivan and our other vehicle, but, you know, calling these an asset would be a stretch but nonetheless, they have some value. Okay, so we have the car titles, readily available in section four so that someone could quickly sell or transfer the title of the car if need be. That’s section four car titles.

Section five is all documents related to our homeownership, okay, this is the deed on our home. This is the HELOC that we have open in the event, essentially, we have this as a backup emergency fund or if we need to tap into some of the equity in the home. So this is the HELOC documents. This is another copy of our homeowners insurance just to have it all in one place as well. So any important document related to the home, obviously, information about the mortgage, all of that is here in Section Five.

Section six is probably the biggest document I think, or close to the biggest section, which is a summary of all of our financial accounts. It’s our net worth tracking sheet, which I’ve talked about before on this show. And it’s all of our social security statements. Now I was just talking with a group of pharmacists last night that I was presenting to and I was talking about, hey, how many of you have pulled your Social Security statements to see your projected benefits, and I kind of got this impression that it was very few if any, right. So if you haven’t done that, it’s a good action step you’re going to do if you go to ssa.gov, to look at your Social Security statements, it’s got good information on there on projected benefits, and you can see your work credits. It’s pretty cool.

But this is a section where I have a table of contents that explains every account we have, right. So at Ally Bank, we have our high yield savings account, we have our checking account. Here’s where we have our Roth IRAs. Here’s where we have our 401 K’s. Here’s where we have a Roth 401 K. For every single financial account that we have, what is the account name? What is the institution? Where’s the link to that account? And what are we using that account for. And then as I mentioned before, we use One Password to store all of our password information and shared between Jess and I and the master key to that Password account is inside of our lock safe at home. So essentially, in the lock safe, you get to the One Password document through that you can then access all the individual financial accounts.

Now I know I’ve talked about this before, but I really believe in the value and the importance of not only having a good idea of the summary of all of your accounts. But this is a good place to also be tracking your overall net worth and your trajectory of your financial health. Right net worth is your assets what you own minus your liabilities, what you owe. Tom Stanley talks about the importance of tracking your net worth in the book, The Millionaire Next Door, and he talks about those that develop and build wealth over time they think differently, right? What he’s talking about there is that they realized that their income is a good tool. But their income is only a tool if they’re applying that to building their assets and paying down their liabilities, which ultimately is translating into their net worth.

So Jess, and I track our net worth on a monthly basis. It’s a very simple spreadsheet. If you want to see what that spreadsheet looks like I have that in the toolbox, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/toolbox along with a couple of the resources that I use, you can make a copy of that make it your own, very simple- every financial account we have, it’s the value of the asset. It’s the amount of liability assets minus liabilities we track that month over month, I think about that as the 20,000 foot view of kind of where we’re progressing financially, of course, the real work to be done is on a much more granular level. So that’s Section six, summary of financial accounts, net worth tracking sheet, and social security statements.

Section seven is our tax returns, this is our tax returns. On the personal side, this is a tax returns on the business side. So for us that would be the business, Your Financial Pharmacist as well as the business YFP Tax. And then for the property that we own, we have a separate LLC for the property as well. So for any business filings or extensions, or important communications, documentations. Obviously, it’s important to retain your tax records for everyone. But here to have those readily available, as well whether it’s needed in the event of an emergency, or if you’re working with a tax professional or someone you need to reference that information that’s good to have. So that’s section seven tax returns.

Section Eight is all information related to business records. So this is a summary of the business entities, I have a quick summary of what are the different entities and then of course, all of the legal documents, including the incorporation documents, the operating agreements, the buy/sell agreements, really important that you not only have these in place, but you have these readily available and accessible in the event of something happening. So any important document related to the business is there. And then as I mentioned, I kick off this section with a quick summary. So that in the event that someone needs to look at this, they can quickly understand what are the entities, what’s my ownership in the entities, and then what are the important documents within each entity that’s included in the legacy folder.

Section nine is just a miscellaneous section. So this could be utilities information or other information that is not easily fit into one of the other buckets in the first eight sections. Pretty simple. Right? So yeah, it takes time. And I think even recently, when I went through a pretty major update of this, I want to say it took me you know, three, four or five hours just to update documents, things that I had to scan to get electronically and making sure I had the right setup, creating some of the explanation in the summary documents. But not only as I mentioned, is it helpful for whoever is looking at this information? Hopefully that never needs to happen. But it’s also helpful for you as you go through this to identify like, oh, maybe there’s some gaps in here in the financial plan that we could use as an opportunity to make some adjustments or changes as you’re looking at goals for the next year.

So in terms of who has access to this, of course, Jess and I have access. Also, my in-laws have access to this who would in our state planning documents become the caregivers of our boys in the event of an emergency so important for them to have access and awareness of it, as well as our financial planning team at YFP right. So I know that in the tragic instance, if Jess and I were to get in an accident tomorrow, and something terrible would happen, I know that instantly my in-laws, who would be in charge of the boys and I know our financial planning team who would be helping them and making decisions, they have access to all of this information. Now, it doesn’t mean it’d be easy. There probably are still questions, maybe things that I’ve missed or haven’t thought about. But it’s a really, really good start again, gives us peace of mind knowing that we thought through this in great detail.

So in closing, right, simple yet effective, simple, yet effective. And that’s so true for so much of the financial plan. Sometimes we overthink this, we overcomplicate this, yeah, there’s work to be done. There’s professionals to be hired, certainly on the financial planning side, on the estate planning side, on the tax side, but the gathering of documents and information. This seems like a bigger mountain to climb than it actually is. And I think for obvious reasons, right? Who likes to think about, you know, some of these circumstances that might be tragic, where someone would need to access your information. It also might expose areas of the plan really like ah, I don’t really like the progress that we’ve made, we’ve got opportunities to improve. So for those reasons, it seems like a bigger mountain to climb. But I promise you that as you go through the process, it likely is easier than you think. And once you get organized with your information, you’re gonna be walking from that point of confidence, you’re gonna feel prepared in taking action on other parts of your financial plan. If you have questions on this episode, as always, feel free to reach out to us [email protected]. Again, make sure to download the YFP Legacy Folder checklist. As you follow along in this episode, you can get that at yourfinancialpharmacist.com /legacy. Thanks so much for joining this week. We’ll catch you next week. Have a good one.

Tim Ulbrich 17:17

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

Current Student Loan Refinance Offers

Advertising Disclosure

Note: Referral fees from affiliate links in this table are sent to the non-profit YFP Gives. Read the full advertising disclosure here.	Bonus	Starting Rates	About	YFP Gives accepts advertising compensation from companies that appear on this site, which impacts the location and order in which brands (and/or their products) are presented, and also impacts the score that is assigned to it. Company lists on this page DO NOT imply endorsement. We do not feature all providers on the market.
	$800* Loans* ≥150K = $800 100-149K = $450 <100K = $350	Variable: 5.28%+ APR (with autopay)* Fixed: 5.28%+ APR (with autopay)* *All bonus payments are by gift card. See terms	The "Kayak" of student loan refinancing, Credible displays personalized prequalified rates from multiple lenders	Check Rate
	$750* Loans ≥150K = $750* ≥50K-150k = $300	Fixed: 5.49%+ APR (with autopay)	A marketplace that compares multiple lenders that are credit unions and local banks	Check Rate
	$500* Loans ≥50K = $500	Variable: 4.99%+ (with autopay)* Fixed: 4.96%+ (with autopay)** Read rates and terms at SplashFinancial.com	Splash is a marketplace with loans available from an exclusive network of credit unions and banks as well as U-Fi, Laurenl Road, and PenFed	Check Rate

Recent Posts

[pt_view id=”f651872qnv”]

YFP 345: 7 Personal Finance Books to Read in 2024 with Tim Ulbrich

Posted on February 8, 2024February 7, 2024 by YFP Media

Tim Ulbrich reviews seven impactful finance books he recommends for both seasoned investors and beginners to gain strategies and inspiration for success.

Episode Summary

In this episode, Tim Ulbrich continues the discussion from Episode 341 on “5 Financial Moves to Make in 2024.” The fifth “move” was about “setting a plan for your personal finance learning,” and this week, Tim dives into seven personal finance books that have profoundly influenced his financial journey.

With no particular order in mind, Tim shares insights from each book and how he has implemented key takeaways into his own financial plan. You can find links to all these recommended books in the show notes. Tim emphasizes that these are not just any books – they are ones he frequently recommends or gifts to others, and they have played a crucial role in his and his wife, Jess’, journey towards achieving financial freedom.

Whether you’re a seasoned investor or just starting on your financial journey, these books are a must-read (or re-read) in 2024. Tune in for valuable insights and inspiration to help you pave your way to financial success!

About Today’s Guest

Tim received his Doctor of Pharmacy degree from Ohio Northern University and completed postgraduate residency training at The Ohio State University. He spent 9 years on faculty at Northeast Ohio Medical University prior to joining Ohio StateUniversity College of Pharmacy in 2019 as Clinical Professor and Director of the Master’s in Health-System Pharmacy Administration Program.

Tim is the host of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast which has more than 1 million downloads. Tim is also the co-author of Seven Figure Pharmacist: How to Maximize Your Income, Eliminate Debt and Create Wealth. Tim has presented to over 200 pharmacy associations, colleges, and groups on various personal finance topics including debt management, investing, retirement planning, and financial well-being.

Key Points from the Episode

Personal finance books and their impact on achieving financial goals. [0:00]
Balancing saving and spending for a rich life. [5:30]
Wealth-building books and their impact on financial planning. [9:30]
Building wealth through calculated risks and long-term investments. [14:09]
Personal finance books and their impact on the Tim’sjourney. [18:03]

Episode Highlights

“When it comes to personal finance, I believe strongly that there is no “arrived” with the financial plan. A commitment to ongoing learning and having the humility to understand that there is much to learn on this topic and mistakes are inevitable is key to long term success.” – Tim Ulbrich [01:49]

“Money is a tool that if we are planning appropriately, we can facilitate and direct to those areas that have the most significance.” – Tim Ulbrich [04:04]

“That’s why as we say, often, a good financial plan should take care of your future self, but also allow you to live a rich life today.” – Tim Ulbrich [07:13]

“Money is something that affords us the opportunity to pay for our basic needs and, if we’re able, to live our rich life and to give to others. And next time you hold a bill of any value in your hand, remind yourself that it’s a piece of paper. In fact, it’s a piece of paper that I recently learned is 25%, linen, 75% cotton. But this is a piece of paper that has value because, number one, we all agree that it has value. And number two, it’s backed by the faith and credit of the US government. So what’s my point? My point is that it’s finite, right. And if we’re not careful, we can miss the boat on accruing while losing sight of the so-what.” – Tim Ulbrich [20:00]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, I’m covering seven personal finance books that have been integral in my own journey that I think you should read or perhaps reread in 2024. My criteria for a book to make this list includes one that I frequently recommend or gift to others, and that I have implemented one or more things from the book of my own financial plan that has had a significant impact for Jess and I achieving our financial goals. Before we jump into the show and my list of seven personal finance books to read in 2024, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what our team at YFP Planning does and working one on one with pharmacists all across the country. YFP Planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning and wealth management services for pharmacists at all stages of their careers. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one on one with a certified financial planner can help you achieve your financial goals. You can book a free discovery call at YFPplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

Tim Ulbrich 01:17

Hey, everyone, welcome to this week’s episode! Tim Ulbrich here and I’m excited to talk through seven personal finance books that I think you should read or perhaps reread in 2024. For now, we kicked off the new year with Episode 341, where I cover the five financial moves to make to crush your 2024 goals. And we’ll link to that episode in the show notes. One of those moves was to set your learning plan. To have an intentional plan and effort to up your financial IQ and your financial knowledge. And when it comes to personal finance, I believe strongly that there is no “arrived” with the financial plan. A commitment to ongoing learning and having the humility to understand that there is much to learn on this topic and mistakes are inevitable is key to long term success. Now one of the greatest advantages that we have living in the 21st century is that we have access to learn just about anything that we want, often at low or no cost. Right. Thank you very much to the Public Library system. So here are seven financial books that have had a profound impact on my journey, such that I often recommend these books to others, gift them and I’ve implemented at least one often more than one of the teachings in my own financial plan.

All right, in no particular order. Let’s jump in with book number one, which is I Will Teach You To Be Rich by Ramit Sethi. Now I had the chance to hear Ramit meet speak in 2019 at the FinCon event the Fin Con Conference in Washington DC and it was fire. He’s a fantastic speaker, a fantastic teacher. And at the time, the theme of his talk, which he talks about the book I Will Teach You To Be Rich, is money dials. Money dials, a key concept in that book. And really the concept of money dials is identifying what areas of spending have the most significance, meaning or impact for you, and dialing those up. And on the flip side, finding those areas of spending that perhaps are somewhat automatic, and we may not even be thinking a whole lot about it. And they have the least significance, or meaning or impact and dialing those down. Right? It’s about intentional allocation of the dollars that we have and spending them in areas that we derive the most significance. Now it sounds obvious, but it’s easy to fall into the trap of spending money on things that you don’t really care that much about at the expense of not having money to spend on things that mean the most to you. And I love that he starts off the book with this, right? Because before we implement the X’s and O’s of the financial plan that you’ve heard me say on this podcast many times, we have to be clear on what does it mean to live a rich life.

Now he uses the terminology money dials, we talked about living a rich life, we’re talking about the same thing, right? Money is a tool that if we are planning appropriately, we can facilitate and direct to those areas that have the most significance. Now in fact, as a society, I would argue that we do this all the time, the literature shows us that experiences and giving derive the most significance in terms of the connection between happiness and money- hold that thought I’m gonna come back to that in one of the other books that I mentioned in this list of seven. Yet those two things often fall towards the bottom of the list as we give preference to less meaningful things. Now this is not about me saying what should or shouldn’t be meaningful, right? Everyone has different significance and meaning it’s about getting clear on what are those things that you derive the greatest significance and meaning from and is your financial plan is your spending in alignment with those areas?

Now, in addition to the concept of money downs in this book, his teachings on automation have stayed with me and are ones I’ve applied in my own plan and teach, often to other pharmacists. Now he says in the book that automating your money will be the single most profitable system that you’ll ever build. And I would whole heartedly agree with that. It takes time, a little bit of time to set up a perhaps not as much as you think. But once you have a system in place, where you’ve thought about and identified your goals, we’ve accounted for them inside of the monthly spending plan. And then we are automatically funding those goals. And we see that process happening. Boom, right? That’s when we’re really humming with the financial plan. In general, this book is a great personal Finance 101 read, it’s an easy read. Again, he’s a fantastic teacher. And I love the principles in this book and are principles that I often apply in my own financial plan. So first book on our list, I Will Teach You To Be Rich by Ramit Sethi.

The second book on my list is Die with Zero by Bill Perkins. Die with Zero by Bill Perkins. Now, this book is all about perspective, and was one of my favorite reads, if not my favorite read of 2023. This book is going to challenge you to think differently about the value of spending and finding that balance with saving or as we say, at YFP finding the balance between living a rich life today, and planning and taking care of our future selves. Now, if you’re an aggressive saver, guilty as charged, right, and you find yourself challenged to enjoy spending money today, right to let go the reins a little bit, this is a must read for you. Bill Perkins, in the book challenges traditionally held beliefs about retirement planning, and passing down generational wealth.

One of my favorite quotes from the book is when he says quote, “People who save tend to save too much for too late in their lives, they are depriving themselves now just to care for a much, much older future self, a future self that may never live long enough to enjoy the money.” Nothing in the future is guaranteed. Yet we should plan for our future selves. Both are true, right, we have to strike this balance. And that’s why as we say, often, a good financial plan should take care of your future self, but also allow you to live a rich life today. And if you’re feeling that tension, I think you’re gonna find a lot of value in this book.

Through Bill’s teaching, I’ve come to appreciate and still need a lot of help guidance and reminders from my financial planner, from Jess in our own plan, that spending just like saving is a learned habit. I was recently reminded of this after listening to an interview on Ramit Sethi’s podcast, where he was talking with a couple nearing retirement age that had over $6 million in net worth. It was quite sad to hear the husband rationalize with Ramit for almost two hours, all the reasons why he couldn’t spend and enjoy because he had to, quote, “first save it up” or quote, “work harder” to make up for what he was going to spend. Again, net worth of $6 million. So for all intents and purposes, they achieved their savings goals plus some, right? The plan had worked. They had gotten to that point that they were planning for all along. But despite what the numbers showed, he couldn’t shift his mindset. He was stuck in the grind and the hustle of working and saving, working and saving. And this is something we don’t talk about often enough with a financial plan that when we work hard for 30 or 40 years to save, that is a big transition. When we get to the withdrawal phase, right? We need to be planning for that. We need to be preparing for that. And we need training wheels along the way to help us with this learned behavior of spending. And the point that Ramit was trying to make and trying to get this husband to see is that in order to live a rich life, the plan that got them there can’t be the same as the plan going forward. Right, the plan that got them there to work hard to save, save, save, work hard, save, save, save, that mindset was going to require a shift in order to live a rich life. New behaviors need to be learned. And ideally, we can build these spending muscles throughout our careers and not just wait until some day off in the future that may or may not come and may or may not be what we have in mind. So my challenge for you is I highlight this book Die With Zero here by Bill Perkins not only to read the book, but my challenge to you is does your financial plan include a balance of saving for your future self and living a rich life today?

Number three in the book is Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki. Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki. Now, Robert Kiyosaki has recently come into the spotlight and many different controversial ways. So personality aside, his teachings in this book, in my opinion, remain a classic. This book is all about mindset, not X’s and O’s. Like some of the other books that are on the list today. And if you think of the financial plan as a series of decisions that need to be made, I think of this book as being a philosophy that guides those decisions, it’s the thread behind the decisions that we make. Now, some key takeaways from this book that have stayed with me for several years, I think I first read it about seven or eight years ago, maybe even longer. I’ve read it a second, maybe a third time at this point. And it’s one of those books I’d like to come back to every so often. And a few of the things that have stayed with me is that, you know, what we might think is an asset versus a liability. I think he challenges that mindset. Why the leverage is an important tool to build wealth. And of course, there’s risk with leverage. And we have to balance that. Also, what has stayed with me is why traditional W2 income limits wealth building. Traditional W2 income has limits as it relates to wealth building. And finally, why business ownership and real estate investing are key legs of wealth building. So he makes a strong argument that much of the tax code is really written in favor of those that own a small business and those that own real estate. Now, that’s not to suggest that those pathways are for everyone, by any means. But it really highlights to me the philosophy in which we might be thinking about building wealth.

Now, this book in particular, along with Tax Free Wealth, by Tom Wheelwright, and we’ll link to all these books in the show notes, Tax Free Wealth by Tom Wheelwright really opened my eyes to the importance of tax as a part of the financial plan, one that is kind of always behind the scenes that probably many of us are not thinking about. And more specifically, the strategies that can be employed to optimize our tax situation, right? We want to pay our fair share, but we want to pay no more. And I think through these teachings, and really digging into the form 1040 and understanding how the different components of that form work and what are the levers that we can pull to make our tax rate as efficient as possible. These two resources: Rich Dad, Poor Dad and Tax Free Wealth have really been instrumental in opening my eyes to the significance and importance of tax as a part of the financial plan.

Our number four on my list is The Millionaire Next Door by Dr. Tom Stanley. The Millionaire Next Door by Dr. Tom Stanley, and the updated version, The Next Millionaire Next Door, featuring Tom’s daughter, Dr. Sarah Stanley Fallaw which we had the pleasure of having on the podcast on episode number 200. This book examines the key behavioral traits of millionaires. One of my favorite quotes in the book is when he says, quote, “One of the reasons that millionaires are economically successful is that they think differently.” They think differently. What he’s talking about is one of my key takeaways from that book is that net worth, not income, net worth, which is your assets, what you own minus your liabilities, that really is a true indicator of your overall financial health. Net worth, not income, as the financial vitals check, is really going to help us as we think about this mindset of is our income being translated into building our assets, and paying down our debt.

Some of my other key takeaways from this book is that, you know, we often wouldn’t know who the people are that are millionaires or multimillionaires. When you look at the research that’s presented in The Millionaire Next Door, as well as the updated version and The Next Millionaire Next Door, the spending behaviors and patterns would say that they probably aren’t the people that we think are millionaires that more or portray to be millionaires. They often have a frugal mindset, doesn’t mean that they’re cheap doesn’t mean that they don’t like investing in good experiences, doesn’t mean that they’re not philanthropic or givers. But they often have a frugal mindset. They’re typically not trapped, millionaires are not trapped by what I think of as the big rocks, right? They’re not house poor, they’re not car poor. They do take calculated risks, often in business or real estate. And most millionaires, as the research suggests, in that book are self made. It’s not typically inherited money. Fascinating research and concepts. I would highly recommend The Millionaire Next Door or the updated version, if you haven’t already read it.

Alright, number five on my list is the Compound Effect by Darren Hardy. The Compound Effect by Darren Hardy. It was one of those books, it’s a quick read. It was one of those books, I remember exactly where I was when I read it. At our old house up in Northeast Ohio during the summer, I read it outside in couple hours, I couldn’t put it down. And one of those books, you’re just constantly highlighting taking notes. You’re like “Yes, yes, yes!” And this is not exclusively a personal finance book, but I love the applications here. And I was recently reflecting on those in my life that have been financially successful because I think it’s helpful to learn and grow from those who have actually done it. Right. And as people came to mind that I thought, okay, who has been long term financially successful in building wealth? Not short term success, long term, financially successful? And as I thought more about that as like, I can’t think of anyone I know who got rich off of buying whole life insurance policies, buying and altcoins are buying NFT’s. And I’m not saying that people don’t exist that have built wealth in those ways. Rather, what I’m saying is that I don’t know anyone that took this path. And I feel confident in saying the perception is much greater than the reality when it comes to these types of vehicles being a viable path to building wealth. Right? Often these are short term solutions that are bandaids when we really need to look at long term consistent behaviors.

Rather, when I think of those people that have built long term wealth, it was a long, methodical, patient journey. One intentional step after another where those decisions, and good decisions not to say there weren’t mistakes along the way, but those good decisions compounded over a long period of time. And I think, unfortunately, we’re hearing less of these journeys, right, because these aren’t great clickbait, these aren’t great in terms of social media algorithms. They’re often boring stories in the literature really supports that in the book, The Millionaire Next Door, which I just mentioned previously. And several, when I thought more about who are these people, several not all have multiple pathways of building wealth. Typically, it’s traditional investments, it might be equity in a business, it might be real estate, and those are always in balance. But I’ve noticed that as a theme, and those that have been really long term, successful in building wealth, and often being philanthropic, as a part of that wealth building. These individuals that come to mind are taking calculated risks on opportunities, where they see that the upside dramatically outweighs the downside. And they have a strong financial foundation in place such that if that calculated risk doesn’t work, they’re not going to be impacted in a significant or catastrophic way. Right, they’re able to take that calculated risk, because they have that strong base and foundation in place.

As I think of these people that come to mind, I would describe them as overall fairly conservative, yet willing, again, to take some level of risk if an opportunity presents itself. So they’re not risk averse, but they’re also not flashing. In fact, they’re quite humble. And they’re often very philanthropic. And they really do embody some of the teachings that have stayed with me from this book, The Compound Effect by Darren Hardy. He has a formula in this book that I often reference back to and that formula is small smart choices, plus consistency plus time equals radical difference. Small smart choices, plus consistency plus time equals radical difference. That is the definition of compound interest when we think about saving over a long period of time. So this is the path I will follow. This is the one that I have seen work – a path defined by working hard, taking calculated risk, investing in tax efficient, appreciating assets, building equity that can be converted to other assets, developing a habit and priority for giving and doing this over and over over a long period of time to allow those results to compound.

Our number six on my list is Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey. The Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey. Now, I’m not an avid follower of Dave Ramsey and his principles and the baby steps but I have to give credit where credit is due. Reading the Total Money Makeover going through Financial Peace University listening to Dave Ramsey’s podcast, was really like a wake up call over a decade ago that inspired the journey that Jess and I took to ultimately pay off our $200,000 of student loan debt, and really led to is the really beginning steps of the place that we are today the journey that we would take to get there. That book, The Total Money Makeover, listening to the podcast really lit a fire under me to want to learn more, right, as I mentioned, was kind of a wake up call to create our own path, our own plan. Even if we didn’t follow the path and plan that he prescribes to so many through the baby step formula. The baby steps, I will admit early in our journey, it was a grounding framework. A grounding framework for us that we needed at the time, as we were trying to balance many things. We weren’t doing any of them particularly well. And we didn’t have an intentional plan in place. And that really was the footing that we needed to get started that would ultimately allow us to build momentum, to build our emergency savings, to get out of debt, and then to have a prioritized approach to achieving our goals. So that’s number six, a Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey.

Number seven, last on my list is Happy Money, The Science of Happier Spending by Elizabeth Dunn and Michael Norton. Now, I would assume many of you have heard of all, perhaps, the first six books that I mentioned, but maybe not the case with this one. I ran across this several years ago. And I intentionally book ended my list of seven here with this one in particular because I think that it’s an important reminder that money is a tool, right? I mentioned that when I talked about Die With Zero by Bill Perkins. Money is something that affords us the opportunity to pay for our basic needs and, if we’re able, to live our rich life and to give to others. And next time you hold a bill of any value in your hand, remind yourself that it’s a piece of paper. In fact, it’s a piece of paper that I recently learned is 25%, linen, 75% cotton. But this is a piece of paper that has value because, number one, we all agree that it has value. And number two, it’s backed by the faith and credit of the US government. So what’s my point? My point is that it’s finite, right. And if we’re not careful, we can miss the boat on accruing while losing sight of the so-what. And that reminder comes I think strongly in the book, Happy Money, The Science of Happier Spending, by Elizabeth Dunn and Michael Norton.

This book provides what the research has to say, on the science of spending and the connection between money and happiness. Now, happiness,how do you define that, right? That’s an important component to consider. But my takeaways from this book were that the literature supports, to no surprise, but an important reminder, the link between happiness and money typically lies in two main areas. Number one, spending money on experiences and memories that will come from those. And number two, on giving. When you look at the connection between happy and money, this, it strongly points to giving and experiences as an important part of the financial plan. I think if you talk to anyone who’s been at this for a while, you start to see this come out again, especially as they shore up some of the basis of their financial plan. These are the areas that you typically see people light up when they talk about their financial plan. Alright, so there you have it, short and sweet, seven personal finance books that have had a profound impact on my journey and are books that I would recommend you read or reread in 2024. We’ll link to all of these books in the show note.

And if you have a book that you often recommend, or that has had a profound impact on your journey, I want to hear about it! Shoot me an email at info@your financialpharmacist.com Let me know what I left off the list. I’d love to read it and perhaps share it with our community in the future. Again, you can reach us at [email protected].

Now we all know that learning right reading books, listening to podcasts, learning is one thing, but learning and taking action with accountability is really where we start to see things happen. And that’s why we’re so excited about the work that our team at YFP Planning is doing through our fee-only, certified financial planning service. You want to learn more about what it looks like to work one-on-one with a fee only certified financial planner from Your Financial Pharmacist, yes to learn and grow in your financial IQ and knowledge, but also to take steps and implement those in your financial plan and be held accountable to achieve those results. You can book a free discovery call at YFPPlanning.com. Again, that’s YFPPlanning.com. Thanks so much for joining me on this week’s episode. And we’ll be back next week. Have a great rest of your day.

[DISCLAIMER]

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit YourFinancialPharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

Current Student Loan Refinance Offers

Advertising Disclosure

Note: Referral fees from affiliate links in this table are sent to the non-profit YFP Gives. Read the full advertising disclosure here.	Bonus	Starting Rates	About	YFP Gives accepts advertising compensation from companies that appear on this site, which impacts the location and order in which brands (and/or their products) are presented, and also impacts the score that is assigned to it. Company lists on this page DO NOT imply endorsement. We do not feature all providers on the market.
	$800* Loans* ≥150K = $800 100-149K = $450 <100K = $350	Variable: 5.28%+ APR (with autopay)* Fixed: 5.28%+ APR (with autopay)* *All bonus payments are by gift card. See terms	The "Kayak" of student loan refinancing, Credible displays personalized prequalified rates from multiple lenders	Check Rate
	$750* Loans ≥150K = $750* ≥50K-150k = $300	Fixed: 5.49%+ APR (with autopay)	A marketplace that compares multiple lenders that are credit unions and local banks	Check Rate
	$500* Loans ≥50K = $500	Variable: 4.99%+ (with autopay)* Fixed: 4.96%+ (with autopay)** Read rates and terms at SplashFinancial.com	Splash is a marketplace with loans available from an exclusive network of credit unions and banks as well as U-Fi, Laurenl Road, and PenFed	Check Rate

Recent Posts

[pt_view id=”f651872qnv”]

YFP 341: 5 Financial Moves to Make in 2024 with Tim Ulbrich

Posted on January 4, 2024January 3, 2024 by YFP Media

Tim Ulbrich, YFP CEO, shares 5 key moves for financial success, emphasizing automation, proactive tax planning, document organization, and continuous learning.

Episode Summary

In the first episode of the New Year, YFP CEO and financial educator, Tim Ulbrich, unveils a financial roadmap for 2024, emphasizing five key moves for achieving financial success and living a rich life. Tim highlights the pivotal role of automation in financial planning, proactive tax planning, the importance of organizing financial documents and the significance of continuous learning. He shares his personal financial goals and the systems he uses to organize and prioritize his financial goals. Tune in to gain insights and actionable steps for mastering your finances in 2024.

About Today’s Guest

Tim Ulbrich is the Co-Founder and CEO of Your Financial Pharmacist. Founded in 2015, YFP is a fee-only financial planning firm and connects with the YFP community of 15,000+ pharmacy professionals via the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast podcast, blog, website resources and speaking engagements. To date, YFP has partnered with 75+ organizations to provide personal finance education.

Tim received his Doctor of Pharmacy degree from Ohio Northern University and completed postgraduate residency training at The Ohio State University. He spent 9 years on faculty at Northeast Ohio Medical University prior to joining Ohio State University College of Pharmacy in 2019 as Clinical Professor and Director of the Master’s in Health-System Pharmacy Administration Program.

Tim is the host of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast which has more than 1 million downloads. Tim is also the co-author of Seven Figure Pharmacist: How to Maximize Your Income, Eliminate Debt and Create Wealth. Tim has presented to over 200 pharmacy associations, colleges, and groups on various personal finance topics including debt management, investing, retirement planning, and financial well-being.

Key Points from the Episode

Financial moves for 2024, including saving and automation. [0:01]
Balancing financial goals with living a rich life today. [3:04]
Proactive tax planning for financial success. [8:21]
Common tax mistakes and planning for tax season. [12:19]
Organizing financial documents for peace of mind. [14:43]
Automating financial planning for maximum profit. [20:19]
Prioritizing sinking funds for various financial goals. [25:21]
Prioritizing savings goals using a systematic approach. [28:24]
Financial moves for 2024, including automation and learning. [34:36]

Episode Highlights

“I get excited with the turning of the page into the new year. Not as a complete reset, but as an opportunity to really look more closely at the priorities that have determined to be most important to me, personally and professionally.” –Tim Ulbrich [02:22]

“Now tax in my opinion, is one of the most under appreciated and overlooked parts of the financial plan.” –Tim Ulbrich [08:27]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRO]

Tim Ulbrich 00:01

Hey everybody, Tim over here. And thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I kick off the new year by covering five financial moves that you can make in 2024 to jumpstart your financial plan. So whether your plan is humming or you’re looking to get refocused and back on track, my hope is that this episode will challenge and motivate you as you set your own goals and plan for 2024. During the show, I talked through why it’s important to set a plan that includes both saving for the future and living a rich life today, I discuss an often overlooked part of the financial plan that perhaps needs more love and attention, why automation should be a key part of your financial planning strategy, and much more. Before we jump in, I want to let you know about a free webinar that I’m hosting coming up on Monday, January 8, at 8pm/Eastern, it’s gonna be a party, and I don’t want you to miss it would love to see you there. During this webinar, master your money in 2024. I’m gonna cover my playbook going from $200,000 in debt to becoming a seven figure pharmacist. Specifically, I’m going to cover how to get clear on your vision for living a rich life, the system and money management routine that we use to get out of debt and save our first million, how to automate your plans, so you aren’t wondering if you’re on track to reach your goals, and how to determine your retirement numbers. If you can’t make it to the webinar live, no worries, we’ll send out a replay to those that register. But if you do attend live, you’ll have a chance to enter a giveaway where two live attendees will be selected for one of the following: $100 Amazon gift card or a YFP bundle including YFP tshirt, YFP pullover and your book of choice. You’ll learn more about the webinar and register your yourfinancialpharmacist.com/2024. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/2024. Alright, let’s jump into today’s episode, five financial moves that you can make in 2024.

Tim Ulbrich 02:03

Hi, there, Tim Ulbrich here and Happy New Year! I’m so excited to be kicking off 2024 with you here on the YFP podcast. Thank you so much for listening and for joining the show. I hope you had some time over the last several weeks to reflect on 2023, think about what’s ahead for 2024, hopefully unwind and spend some time with loved ones as well. I get excited with the turning of the page into the new year. Not as a complete reset, but as an opportunity to really look more closely at the priorities that have determined to be most important to me, personally and professionally. And to make sure that the schedule and activities align accordingly. And I hope the same is true for you. And as we talk about that turn into the new year, as it relates to the financial plan, I’m going to cover five financial moves that I think you should consider implementing here in 2024, if you’re not already doing so, in your own financial journey. We’re going to talk through each one of these in detail. I’m going to talk about how I’ve implemented this in my own life as well as why I think about each of these five areas really is core to your long term financial success.

So let’s kick things off with number one, which is making sure that our financial goals strike the balance between living a rich life today, as well as planning and saving for the future, right? We need to be thinking about tomorrow, we have to be planning and saving for retirement, making sure that we’re focused on moving our net worth in a positive direction, net worth being our assets, minus our liabilities, making sure that we’re taking care of our future selves saving for retirement filling those investment buckets, all of those things are a priority. And I hope you have some plans and goals around those in 2024. But let’s not lose sight of those goals that help keep us focused on living a rich life today while we’re planning and saving for the future, while we’re planning for tomorrow. So perhaps for some of you listening, you’ve long dreamed about a certain experience that has taken a backseat to the busyness of life. Maybe that’s as small as a weekend getaway. For those that have young kids, I know how difficult that can be. Or perhaps for some of you this is a big stretch goal, may be something as big as a year off, traveling the world having those lifetime types of experiences, those bucket list type of experiences that are most important to you.

You know, I think back to Matt and Nicky Javert that we featured on the podcast that traveled the world. Nick Ornella that took a year off from his job as community pharmacist to travel the world. We’ll share both of those episodes in the show notes. So no matter where your experience or goals live, there is no right or wrong. Each of us are on our own journey. Perhaps it’s something that’s experienced focus that hasn’t been a priority that you’d like to make a priority in 2024. But how about those interests, or hobbies that we used to long for and prioritize that have gotten lost again and that busyness of life and work? So for me in 2023 This wasn’t a financial expense, but it was something that brought great joy. One of the activities that I wanted to pursue was getting back into playing volleyball, something I had done competitively throughout high school, something that the busyness of life, other priorities and work just fell by the wayside. And I did that through a local rec league and that brought incredible joy to me throughout the winter. Or what about that side hustle business or project that you’ve been dragging your feet to take the first step on, or perhaps volunteering or giving opportunities that have gotten lost in the shuffle of other priorities of the financial plan.

So let’s make this year the year that we move the needle on both yes, those long term savings and investment goal saving for our future selves, while also prioritizing living a rich life today. Now, here’s the reality when it comes to setting and achieving our goals, many of us probably need to simplify and clarify our goals to put them in focus. There’s lots of competing priorities, regardless of the stage of life that you’re in. And so I would encourage you to put them down on paper, something that we’ve been doing inside of the YFP plus community last month in December of 2023, was writing down our goals in a measurable time oriented way over the next one year, two to three goals in each of the four areas that mean most to us and our own wellness, of course, finance here, we’re talking about one area of wellness, and sharing that out with one another as a mechanism of both accountability to do the activity, as well as hopefully encouragement and accountability and achieving those goals. So put them down on paper, identify two to three financial goals that you want to achieve over the next year. And again, yes, we’ll have some of those objective things, right saving for the future, investing in 401Ks and IRAs and all those types of investments. But I would challenge you: do you also have components of your financial plan that are aligned with living that rich life today? So we’re not talking about being specific, I’m referring to having a what, to having a when, and to having a why. To having a what, a when, and why. So for example, for us in 2024, one of the experiences we’re hoping to achieve is to go out west to visit some of Jess’s family in Montana in the summer of 2024. We know that’s an expense, right? Traveling from Ohio to Montana, we’ve got four young boys, whether we fly whether we drive, experiences along the way, that’s going to be a large expense. So when it comes to us, that might look like something that hey, by June 1 of 2024, we will allocate $5,000, so that we can take that trip out to Montana, and have that experience with our boys and be with our family, though that’s out there, right? We’ve got a what, we’ve got a when, and we’ve got a why. When we have a what, when and why, we can start to not only make that goal come to life, but we can implement that in a monthly plan to see what it’s going to take for us to be able to achieve that goal. And we’ll talk more about that later on this episode.

So again, before you set your goals for the new year. Get clear on the why right? Do your goals motivate you do your goals inspire you and for those that are you that are doing this together with a significant other, a partner or spouse, starting with the goal, starting with the vision, starting with the dreams and getting aligned in those areas, is going to really help the rest of the financial plan to flow. So that’s number one on our list of five financial moves that you can make in the new year, making sure that your goals include and strike the balance between living a rich life today, and planning and saving for the future.

Alright, number two is taking your tax strategy to the next level taking your tax strategy to the next level. Now tax in my opinion, is one of the most under appreciated and overlooked parts of the financial plan. And I want you to think about tax as a thread that runs across your financial plan, perhaps one that maybe you’re not thinking enough about that. Ideally, we are proactively considering and evaluating when we are making our financial moves. Now this sounds so obvious, but I historically previously have viewed tax very much in the rearview mirror, right we have to file by April 15, or thereabouts each year to meet the IRS requirements. We don’t want the IRS coming knocking at our doors. And when we do that we are accounting for what happened in the previous year. Now thankfully, because of our tax team, because of our attention and focus on this topic, I’ve become much more proactive in my tax planning as a part of the financial plan. But in years gone by, we would file our taxes and then we’d hold our breath right? Are we going to get a refund? Or are we going to have taxes that are due do we do we do our withholdings correctly based on differences in charitable giving from one year to the next right all of these factors?

I didn’t have a great picture on come that time of tax filing, what was going to happen, right, and that is less than ideal when it comes to optimizing this part of the financial plan. It’s so again, we need to shift our attention from tax preparation to tax planning. One is proactive. One is reactive right again when we go to file and we complete that paperwork whether you do that yourself whether you hire professional that is looking backwards if we start to think more proactive, hopefully at the point of filing, yes, we’re going to do that work, we have to do that. But we’re then looking ahead to say, hey, based on that information, based on the rest of our financial plans, based on our personal situation, based on changes that we know are coming or goals that we have, what can we be doing strategically in advance throughout the rest of the year, to make sure that we’re paying our fair share of taxes, but no more. So if you don’t already know your key tax numbers, I’m referring to things like marginal tax rate, effective tax rate, adjusted gross income, let’s make a commitment this year to get started and to learn more.

Now, I would love if you would get out the IRS Form 1040, we’ll link to it in the show notes. And just spend 10 to 15 minutes to make sure that you understand the terminology and the flow of dollars. I get it. It’s nerdy, right. And whether you like this subject, or you don’t you do it yourself, you hire someone else. Understanding these numbers and understanding the flow of dollars, and what those terms mean and how it ultimately affects your marginal and your effective tax rate is going to be really important as you think about the strategies, and you’ll be able to directly see how certain strategies you can implement in the financial plan are going to have an impact on the overall taxes that you pay. So as one example, AGI adjusted gross income has huge implications for those that are going through student loan repayment, right income driven repayment calculations, especially for those that are pursuing the Public Service Loan Forgiveness strategy, your adjusted gross income is directly tied to the monthly payment that you’re going to make under student loan. So if we understand that, we can then start to think about, well, hey, are there strategies I can use that can perhaps reduce or lower my AGI adjusted gross income? Not by making less than one do that, but by making contributions to things like traditional 401 K or traditional 403B accounts? Or how about health savings accounts? Right? These are types of things that can reduce our taxable income, therefore reduce our monthly student loan payment, which is a great thing, especially for those that are pursuing tax free loan forgiveness, all the while we’re accruing tax deferred savings into the future. Just one example of how important the proactive planning can be.

Now on episode 309 of the podcast, we’ll link to that in the show notes. Our CPA and Director of Tax Sean Richards covered the top 10 tax blunders that pharmacists make. So whether you have a negative net worth, or you have several million dollars saved, I think you’ll find a lot of value in that episode. Sean, reflecting on the recent tax filing season, where he filed he’ll correct me if I’m wrong, I think over 200 something returns for the different clients that we worked with. And what he saw as the most common mistakes that pharmacists were making. Some of those things, including having a surprise bill, or refund due at filing, probably the most common thing that we see, including some of the surprises that are causing that issue, right. And so what we want to be doing ideally is we’re shooting for zero, we don’t want to have an interest free loan that we have out to the government. And we also don’t want to have a surprise bill that’s due that we’re not ready for. So what are the common things that cause that refund or cause that bill so we talked about that on that episode. Another common mistake he discussed was pharmacists not employing a bunching strategy for charitable giving. So for those that are giving, especially giving at a significant level, and aren’t following the standardized deduction, Is there perhaps some strategy in the in the bunching of charitable contributions that can reduce one’s tax rate. He also talked about a common mistake he saw a new side hustlers and business owners not planning for taxes.

So earning income and being surprised by not paying estimated taxes along the way. We talked about under estimating the power of the HSA, the health savings account and an oldie but a goodie, not factoring in public service loan forgiveness when choosing tax filing status as married, filing separately or married filing jointly. So make sure to check out that episode episode 309. And easy to see as you hear some of those common examples why having a proactive tax plan is worth its weight in gold. Now, as we turn the page into the new year, this is a great time to be planning, right? We’re getting ready to go into tax season that mid April deadline that we talked about. So now is the perfect time to be thinking about the upcoming tax filing season. Our tax team is ready to help, yes with the filing, but also as I discussed here, with proactive year round tax planning. We do that through our comprehensive tax planning service you can visit YFPtax.com to learn more, and to see whether or not those services may be a good fit for you. Alright, so that’s number two on our list of five financial moves to make in the new year. Take your tax strategies the next level.

Number three is button up your financial documents. Button up your financial documents. Now getting organized with your financial records, I believe plays a significant role, not necessarily in terms of moving the needle on your net worth, but in making sure that you and others have access to all of the information that you need to make informed decisions with the financial plan. So think for a minute about all the financial accounts that you have out there, all the different documents, insurance policies that touch a certain part of your financial plan, the list quickly grows to one that is overwhelming. And the more you operate in your own system, the longer time goes by where you’re operating in your own system, the easier it is for you to navigate, but perhaps harder for others to navigate and unravel, should they need to do so in the future. And that’s where this concept of buttoning up your financial documents comes in. That’s where this concept of a legacy folder comes in. I first heard of that idea of a legacy folder, when I took Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University probably 10-12 years ago at this point at our local church. And I remember walking away thinking, wow, that is so simple. So obvious. Why haven’t I done that yet? Why haven’t Jess and I done that yet, as a part of our own plan. So essentially, the idea of a legacy folder if that’s a new concept to you, whether it’s a physical folder, and electronic folder, or a combination of both, it’s a place where you have all of your financial related documents. So in the event of an emergency, others would be able to quickly access your financial situation and not just access but be able to pick up and understand what’s going on and to be able to make key decisions in your absence. So we just went through updating this and shifting everything to an electronic version. So that in the event of something that happens to Jess and I those caring for our boys, along with the financial planning team at YFP have access to all of the necessary information. So here’s how we have organized it certainly not the only way to do it. But here’s how we have organized it in a combination of Google Drive, and a safe at home that has a passwords, all of our passwords stored in a One Password account. So we have nine different sections, I’ll describe them briefly, this sounds overwhelming, it did take a commitment of time to get started. It takes a commitment of time to update. But I will say there’s an incredible feeling of peace and momentum that comes from having this done.

So section one for us is what we refer to as important documents, okay, birth certificates for us, for our kids ,social security cards, marriage certificates, passports, all of these we have in a fireproof safe at home. And we have them just referenced as being there in the electronic version that we share with the financial planning team as well share with those that would take care of the boys in the event of our absence. So that’s section one important document.

Section two is all of our insurance policies and information – auto insurance, homeowners insurance, umbrella insurance, health insurance, long term disability, term life insurance policies for myself, for Jess, for the business, etcetera.

Section three is estate planning documents. So we have a hard copy of these in the safe that have been notarized and electronic version that’s uploaded in the Google Drive. So these are things like the revocable trust agreements, health care power of attorney living will last will and testament.

Section four is the car titles. Now, I’m not sure how valuable these are given our current condition of our Swagger Wagon, but they’re there nonetheless. So section four is the car title.

Section five is our home ownership documents. So this is the deed to the home, our home equity line of credit or HELOC information, we have another copy of homeowners insurance policy here just so it’s all contained in one section.

Section six is a summary of our financial accounts, our net worth tracking sheet, as well as our Social Security statements. So I’m going to talk about more of this in the webinar on January 8, and actually kind of show you the system that we have set up. But here I just have a quick summary, think of it as a table of contents of all of our financial accounts that are out there. So for example, we use Ally for checking and savings accounts, where we have our treasury bonds, where we have our different investment accounts, 401K’s, IRA accounts and so forth. So it’s just a quick summary of what is the account type, where’s the account. And then as I mentioned, we store all the passwords in a separate secure One Password account. We also have in this section, a net worth tracking sheet. So each month, we track all of our assets, all of our liabilities, we add those up assets minus minus liabilities equals net worth. And we’re tracking our progression of net worth over a period of time. So it’s a way that Jess and I can just quickly look at a 20,000 foot view of where’s our overall financial health whereas the overall trajectory of the net worth.

Section seven is our tax returns for personal and business tax returns.

Section eight is all of the records related to the business. So a summary of the different entities, legal documents, operating agreements, buy/sell agreements, etc.

And then section nine is just a miscellaneous so information about utilities and other accounts that don’t fit in the previous sections. Again, it takes time to get that started, but it’s something that you can act upon pretty quickly in the new year, and I encourage you to set an annual recurring reminder, whether that’s the turn of the new year, perhaps it’s daylight savings time or something else, that you just remember to update those documents as needed periodically.

Alright, so that’s number three in our five financial moves to making 2024, button up your financial documents. Number four is my favorite. This is the area that I think has moved the needle the most for Jess and I, in our financial plan over the last decade or so. And that is automation, making sure that you have a system and ideally a system that is working for you. Now, when it comes to automating your financial plan, again, I think just like the legacy folder concept we talked about, it’s so obvious, so effective, so easy to implement. But many people I don’t think are optimizing this. So think of automation, as the mechanism by which your income is working for you. And it’s automatically funding the priorities that you’ve already set, and determined to be most important in advance. Now, I know I’m not alone, when I say that I was feeling for some time that there are multiple financial priorities that are occurring at once that are swirling around in my head. And it can be overwhelming to think about what are those priorities? In what order? And how do we allocate the limited resource of limited income that we have to those? Should we focus on one? Should we focus on two? Should we focus on three? And so much of the stress around the financial plan, I believe, is from all of that unknown, and anxiety swirling in our heads, right? If we can get that down onto paper, and if we can start to put some numbers and a plan to it and prioritize it, we may not always like the outcome of how fast we may or may not be able to achieve those goals. But once we have a plan, once we articulate it, once we know we thought about it, we prioritize it, I think there’s a lot of clarity and momentum that can come from that. So automation helps put those goals into action. It takes the stress out of wondering whether or not they’re going to happen. So whether it’s saving for an emergency fund, whether it’s saving for a vacation, paying down debt, whether it’s student loan debt, consumer debt, auto loan debt, mortgage debt, whatever type of debt, whether it’s saving for retirement, saving for home, saving for investment property, automation helps identify and prioritize these goals and assign your income accordingly. Yes, it takes a bit of time to set up, perhaps not as much as you may think, because you hear about it. But once it’s set up, it provides a long term return on time benefit, but also better yet, as I mentioned peace of mind and feeling of momentum knowing that you’ve thought about prioritize and have a plan in place working itself to fund your goals.

Now, Ramit Sethi talks about this in his book, I Will Teach You To Be Rich, he does an incredible job of teaching automation credit to him. And he says that automating your financial plan will be the single most profitable system that you’ll ever build. And I remember hearing that and thinking, Man, that’s a big, big promise, right? But it is 100% true. Automating your financial plan will be the single most profitable system that you’ll ever built. So if you’re not already doing this, I want you to imagine a future state. Imagine a future state where your financial goals and priorities are clearly defined. You’ve determined how much of your monthly budget is available for these goals. And you have a system in place to automatically fund these goals every month so you get paid and your money is being distributed automatically. Paycheck comes in dollars are being funded to the goals that you’ve already determined and prioritized to be most important. Okay, so what does this look like? Here’s how Jess and I are currently implementing this. Now, previously, we adhere to a zero based budget, which I think really did help us laser in and focus on our expenses and account for every single dollar that we earned. That’s the premise of a zero based budget. I think that method works out really well, especially when you’re getting started or feel like you need to get back on track. But over time, we’ve loosened this up knowing that once we account for all of our monthly commitments, right, our monthly commitments, being mortgage insurance, property taxes, giving, groceries, subscriptions, utilities, etc. Once we account for those, and those are largely fixed, outside of some variation in utility payments, we have a certain amount of funds after we account for those things that we know can be allocated in two general buckets with several options within those two general buckets. So what are those two general buckets? General bucket number one is what we call everything else. So this includes things like gas, miscellaneous trips to the store, family experiences, family entertainment, eating out, et cetera. And we track this, Jess and I track this, in a shared Google Sheet. And I’ll talk more about this in the webinar on the eighth and what the system looks like. That just helps us make sure we don’t overspend this category. Okay, so we started with our total income. We define our total take home income. We then define, as I mentioned, all of those fixed expenses and aren’t really shifting too much from month to month – mortgage, insurance, property taxes, giving, groceries, subscriptions, etc. And in days gone by that would also have been debt payments. And then what’s left over, we’re going to allocate into two general buckets and what I’m talking about is this first general bucket of everything else.

The second general bucket is what we think of as our sinking funds. It’s the second bucket of funds that we want to predefine prioritize, set allocation amounts, and then set up auto-contribution of funds. So what do I mean by the sinking funds? Okay, so for us in 2024, the areas that we’re focused on are funding an HSA, I’ll talk about each one of these more detail, finishing our basement, funding that 2024 vacations, as well as saving for a summer vacation 2025, funding our Roth IRAs, funding the next car purchase, and then thinking more about the boys 529 funds for college savings. So for us in 2024, as we sat down and thought about what is the greatest priority, those are the things that rose to the top that we wanted to fund with these bucket two funds that I’m referring to, right, the sinking funds. So in this scenario, and within our discussion of automation, we would look to estimate the available pool of funds per month or per year divided by 12, we would then prioritize the list, determine the allocation order in the amounts. And then as I mentioned, we would automatically fund those and set up a recurring contribution. So for example, let’s walk through this let’s say that we assume that for the year, let’s assume we have $3,000 a month, or $36,000 for the year available to disperse across these bucket two goals. So again, I’m not talking about the expenses that we know we’re going to fund every month, we talked about that mortgage, insurance, etc., property taxes. I’m not talking about that everything else bucket that we know a certain amount for family experiences, for gas, other trips that we may take out. I’m referring to this bucket of sinking funds.

So let’s assume we have $3,000 a month or $36,000 a year to put towards the sinking funds. Now for some of you listening, you may think, Hey, we’ve got a lot more. That’s great, right? We want to be intentional with that. And for some of you, you may be thinking, Wow, we got a lot less, right? And so we have to focus on again, everyone is on their own journey. So how do we take this $36,000 a year? How do we take this $3,000 a month if we use that as an example, and disperse that across the different goals I just talked about: HSA funds, finishing the basement, Roth IRAs, car fund, etc. So for us, the HSA is really a top priority, not just because of the triple tax benefits. I know we’ve heard about that on that on the show before. But since we have a high deductible health plan, and we have four active boys, right, so we really need to minimize our risk there. And we’ve got a really high deductible as well as a high out of pocket max. So we know that we want to max that out and 2024. That’s $8,300 a year as a family contribution. And so we were going to do that as priority number one. So once we fund that HSA< again, we started with $36,000 a year, we fund, fully fund the HSA $8,300/year, we’re now left with $27,700. So working down the list, what’s priority number two? So for us priority number two is finishing the basement. Now we’ve been planning for this for years. And we’ve decided that based on this phase of life we’re in we’ve got boys ages 12 to four, it’s a great time that we want to make the most out of the space and we want to really make this project happen. For us, it’s the example I’ve referenced in financial move number one, right? Finding that balance between saving for the future and living a rich life today. Now, does finishing the basement financially make the most sense, right? Does does it objectively may make the most sense when we compare it against other types of things like Roth IRAs, or 529 funds, and be able to save and invest for the future? The answer is no. Right? It doesn’t objectively rank higher, any money that you’re going to save and compound over time is going to beat any expense, right? That’s just an objective fact unless that money loses a significant amount as you invest it. But as we step back, and as we look at for our family, finding that balance between living a rich life today, as well as planning for the future, as we look at the progress we’ve already made towards retirement savings, we’ve decided that in fact, we’re going to make this a priority over some other investment and savings accounts. Now, to be frank, I wish we would have done this sooner. And so we’re going to pull the trigger and make this happen in 2024. So for this example, let’s assume that it’s going to cost $25,000 to do the project. And let’s assume we already have $15,000 saved so we need $10,000 more to get the project done. So again, we started with $36,000. We fully funded the HSA at $8300. We’re going to now add another $10,000 in the basement. So we’re left over with $17,700.

Moving down the list of priority number three. So continuing this theme of finding that balance between living a rich life today and tomorrow, we want to prioritize two family experiences in 2024. One being a summer trip to the Fingerlakes that we take with my family. We’ve done this for several years. And another being a trip out west to Montana, I mentioned that a bit earlier. So let’s assume for both of those, that’s going to cost a combined $7,000. So after we subtract that, we now have $10,700 left.

Moving down the list. Next up for us is Jess’s Roth IRA, that’s going to cost $7,000 to fund and max that out and 2024. After we do that, we’re left with $3700, then let’s just round this out by assuming we’ll allocate the remaining amount to my Roth IRA to do a partial fund. Now, you can see this system and process that we worked through right, we identified the total estimated annual amount, you can do the same thing, divide that by 12 for monthly. We listed out the goals, and we match those up to prioritize accordingly.

Now, here’s the disappointing part. Or perhaps, depending on you look at it, it may be exciting is as I do. In this example, we have fully funded several goals, right? We fully funded the HSA, we fully funded finishing the basement, we fully funded to 2024 vacations, we fully funded just as RIA, we partially funded my Roth IRA. But we had several things that I mentioned that were left unfunded, okay? The kids 529 accounts and the summer 2025 vacation, as well as the next car fund. So we have a couple options here. We can go back to the drawing board and redistribute right, lower some of the other ones and partially fund some, and then have others that we are able to partially fund. Or we can stay as is knowing that if additional funds become available, right, whether that’s in the form of for us additional income, it could be tax refunds, although hopefully we’re doing a good job planning and that’s not the case. It could be side hustle income for some of you. It could be picking up extra hours, it could be gifts that you receive, whatever might be the additional income, we know that we have a system and a list that is prioritize that if that income comes in, we know exactly where we’re going to allocate that. And that is the power of automation. That is the power of having a system.

So one step further, what does this practically look like for us in terms of implementation? And I’m going to show much more of this during the webinar on the 8th, I’m really excited about that. So we use Ally for all of our online banking. Now, this is not a commercial for Ally. We really liked them. We’ve used them for several years. I like the capability they have with saving buckets and other features. But you can build a system like this, and many different types of savings accounts. So for us direct deposit from work income goes into Ally, goes into a checking account. And since we know the amount required per month to allocate to the goals we decided upon, there is then a bucket labeled for each of these goals inside of Ally. So the transfer of funds goes from checking account where the direct deposit comes in to savings account. And then within the savings account, we have a predefined bucket. So essentially what this looks like is you’ve got a certain amount of dollars, let’s say $30, or $40, or $50,000 in a savings account. But once you click into that, you see all these different sub-buckets for things like vacation, for a basement remodel. And again, you can do a multitude of different buckets, I think you can do up to 30 or so inside of Ally. In the case of for us, the IRA, the Roth IRA and HSA savings, you know, we could put those in the bucket as well inside the savings account, but we’re gonna set those up to be an auto contribution directly into the investment account, right? We want those dollars working for us as quickly as possible. So again, imagine that flow you get paid, right, we’ve identified the buckets that auto contribute into the buckets, because we know we’ve already accounted for it inside of the rest of the bucket and rest of the budget. And then that’s working for us once we have the system set up. Now depending on when you get paid for us, it’s the first of the month. But for you it might be two times a month. But regardless, once you know when you get paid and once that’s consistent, we know that anytime after the first so we get paid around the first of the month, as well as the 15th. But we use the first as our metric for when we’re going to auto fund these goals. So anytime after the first it could be the third, it could be the fourth, I think I have most of them set up on the fourth, we can have that auto transfer established to go from checking to savings to the bucket leaving only in checking what is left to pay off the credit card each month. And so that all other dollars, they have a purpose, right? They’re being defined and allocated towards a goal. That is the system of automation. And I’m gonna talk more about that in the webinar on the 8th. I’m gonna give you some visuals and show you how to set up so you can make the most of it for your own financial plan. So that’s the fourth financial move. I think the one probably that can move the needle the most. Automate your financial plan have a system in place.

And finally number five is set your learning plan. Now when it comes to personal finance, I believe strongly that there is no arrived with the financial plan. Right? This is constantly evolving. It’s constantly changing. And a commitment to ongoing learning and having the humility to understand that there’s much to learn, and that mistakes are inevitable, is really key to long term success. So next week episode of the podcast, I’m going to feature ten personal finance books that I think you can/should read in 2024 that have had a profound impact on my own journey. So make sure to tune into that episode. I don’t want to spoil the goods here. But it’s important that you define that learning plan and path that works best for you.

One of the greatest advantages that we have of living in the 21st century is that we have access to learning just about anything that we want. And often we can do it at a low or no cost, right. Thank you very much to our local public library. So whether it’s reading books, great to have at it! If it’s podcasts, blogs, videos, there’s many options out there, find the learning path, that means the most to you and has the significance and really engages you in the learning process. And I would encourage you -learning is one thing, right? But learning plus action plus accountability is really where things start to happen. So that’s number five of our five financial moves to make it 2024. Set an intentional plan around what you want to learn in this new year. And then determine what are those resources, what are the blogs? What are the books? What are the podcasts that are going to help you get there and I hope YFP will be an important part of that journey.

Alright, before we wrap up today’s episode, I want to remind you of that free webinar I’m hosting on Monday January 8 at 8pm/Eastern: Master your Money. This webinar, Master your Money in 2024 and a cover my playbook going from $200,000 in debt to becoming a seven figure pharmacist. Specifically I’m gonna cover how to get clear on your vision for living a rich life, to make sure we had that vision in place, the system and money management that I’ve used that we’ve used Jess and I, to get out of debt and save our first million. How to automate your plan. I’ll show you step by step process for automation. So you’re wondering if you’re on track to achieve your goals, and how to determine your retirement webinar. As I mentioned before, if you can’t make it live, no worries, we’ll send out a replay afterwards. But if you can make it live, we’d love to see you there and you’ll then be eligible for a chance to enter a giveaway. Two live attendees will be selected to either receive $100 Amazon gift card or a YFP bundle including a YFP t-shirt, YFP pullover and a YFP book of your choice. You can learn more at register at your yourfinancialpharmacist.com/2024. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/2024. Cheers to a great New Year. Have a great rest of your day.

[DISCLAIMER]

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. information to the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

Current Student Loan Refinance Offers

Advertising Disclosure

Note: Referral fees from affiliate links in this table are sent to the non-profit YFP Gives. Read the full advertising disclosure here.	Bonus	Starting Rates	About	YFP Gives accepts advertising compensation from companies that appear on this site, which impacts the location and order in which brands (and/or their products) are presented, and also impacts the score that is assigned to it. Company lists on this page DO NOT imply endorsement. We do not feature all providers on the market.
	$800* Loans* ≥150K = $800 100-149K = $450 <100K = $350	Variable: 5.28%+ APR (with autopay)* Fixed: 5.28%+ APR (with autopay)* *All bonus payments are by gift card. See terms	The "Kayak" of student loan refinancing, Credible displays personalized prequalified rates from multiple lenders	Check Rate
	$750* Loans ≥150K = $750* ≥50K-150k = $300	Fixed: 5.49%+ APR (with autopay)	A marketplace that compares multiple lenders that are credit unions and local banks	Check Rate
	$500* Loans ≥50K = $500	Variable: 4.99%+ (with autopay)* Fixed: 4.96%+ (with autopay)** Read rates and terms at SplashFinancial.com	Splash is a marketplace with loans available from an exclusive network of credit unions and banks as well as U-Fi, Laurenl Road, and PenFed	Check Rate

Recent Posts

[pt_view id=”f651872qnv”]

YFP 340: YFP Podcast Replay – How to Teach Your Kids About Money and Investing

Posted on December 28, 2023December 26, 2023 by YFP Media

Dylin Redling and Allison Tom discuss their journey to FIRE and their book for kids on investing and personal finance, sharing practical advice and tips.

Episode Summary

On this episode Tim Ulbrich welcomes Dylin Redling and Allison Tom, creators of Retireby45.com and authors of two books, Start Your F.I.R.E. (Financial Independence Retire Early): A Modern Guide to Early Retirement and Investing for Kids: How to Save, Invest and Grow Money. Dylin and Allison achieved ‘financial independence retire early’ status in 2015 when they were in their early 40’s. Have you ever thought to yourself, I wish I had learned more about the topic of personal finance sooner? If so, that’s exactly what today’s show is all about as Tim interviews Dylin and Allison about their work with their book, Investing for Kids. They discuss practical advice and meaningful activities to help with teaching kids about money and investing.

About Today’s Guests

Dylin Redling and Allison Tom are a married couple living in Oakland, California. After working for 17 years in the tech industry in San Francisco, they left the workforce in January 2015 and never went back.

They own and operate the website RetireBy45.com, which provides inspiration, tips, and resources for achieving FIRE (Financial Independence / Retiring Early) and making the most of the FIRE lifestyle. In 2020, they wrote and published two books: “Start Your FIRE: A Modern Guide to Early Retirement” and the best-selling “Investing for Kids.”

They love food, fitness, and travel. Their goal of “60 by 60” is to visit 60 countries by the age of 60.

Key Points from the Episode

Learn about Dylin and Allison’s book for kids ages 8-12 called, “Investing for Kids: How to Save, Invest, and Grow Money”
Dylin and Allison’s first book was “Start Your FIRE: A Modern Guide to Early Retirement”
Their book for kids is easy to understand with lots of activities and lead by the colorful characters called the Dollar Duo: Mr. Finance and Investing Woman
Career paths and choices led Allison and Dylin to live in the Bay Area of California
When Dylin had pneumonia and was in the ICU for many days, the couple began to ask themselves, “Do we want to work for 25 more year?”
Dylin’s pneumonia experience along with changes in their careers led them to pursue with FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early) journey
Because they are passionate about learning about personal finance, they felt inspired to reach a younger audience
Dylin and Allison believe it is important to have a healthy respect for money, even in the age of digital currency
They hope their book can be read with an adult so that it can lead to good conversations about personal finance
Good finances early on can put you in a good position to be in control of future opportunities

Episode Highlights

“So there are plenty of ways to cut costs in your life that are relatively painless, that we’ve talked about all the time, so there are just different ways to do it to achieve FIRE. And some people don’t even choose to do the early retiring like my father is the example. So retirement is really more of the optional part. We’re not saying you have to retire, you have to leave your job and just sit around drinking mojitos all day long, although it’s certainly not a bad lifestyle. But you know, the retiring part is up to the individual. “ – Allison Tom

“So we love our FIRE lifestyle and the fact that we left our W2 jobs in our 40s, but we know it’s not for everybody. But what we do also know is that the concepts of Financial Independence are good for anybody, no matter when you might want to retire. And those concepts are really about doing the right thing with your money. So it starts with saving, it starts with being somewhat frugal — and when we say frugal, we don’t mean living a spartan lifestyle. We just mean not going crazy with money with spending on things that you don’t want or that you don’t need or you feel like you have to keep up with the Joneses and get a brand new SUV every two years.” – Dylin Redling

“I got to college, and then I had my first credit card that I just — oof. It was bad. I did not understand the concept of paying credit cards and interest rates and late fees and minimum payments. And so, you know, I got in trouble with credit cards after I graduated. And it wasn’t until after that that I thought, oh, I really need to learn more about what’s going on here. And so I started watching some shows on PBS, but by then, you know, I’m in my early 20s at that point. My learning took a lot longer for the habits to become engrained in me. So you know, I really do think that if kids could see this stuff earlier, it would be so much more impactful.” –Allison Tom

“That’s the beauty of the time being yours is you can make it whatever you want to do. We also do a lot more work with our community that we never had time to do when we were working. So we’re a lot more invested in our neighborhood, and we spend more time working with businesses in our neighborhood to bring in more business. So having that luxury of time means you can go explore whatever interests pop up.” – Allison Tom

“And so as the educators come up with their curriculum, I think honestly, a lot of adults are really intimidated by personal finance. And so it’s something that seems easy enough for them to cut out of the education system as an elective because well, if they don’t understand it, then kids aren’t going to understand it. And if they’re intimidated by it, then kids are definitely going to not understand it and be intimidated by it, so let’s not even talk about it, which actually is one of the reasons why we thought it was important to write the book.” – Allison Tom

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

(INTRO)

Tim Ulbrich: Dylin and Allison, welcome to the show.

Allison Tom: Thanks for having us.

Dylin Redling: Thank you very much. Great to be here.

Tim Ulbrich: I’ve very much been looking forward to this interview to talk more about your story achieving financial independence and early retirement and more specifically, the work that the two of you did in writing “Investing for Kids: How to Save, Invest, and Grow Money.” And Dylin, let’s start with you only because we share an Ohio State connection since you’re an alum so go Bucks. Why write a book specifically designed for kids about investing? What was the motivation behind your work?

Dylin Redling: Yeah, well, first of all, go Buckeyes. Yes, a great connection there. It’s interesting because I’ll start off with the interesting fact that Allison and I actually don’t have kids. And so you would think that the impetus would have been we had our own kids and we taught them financial literacy and it inspired us to teach more kids. But in fact, we sort of stumbled into this book. This is our second book. Our first book is called, “Start Your FIRE: A Modern Guide to Early Retirement.” And it’s all about early retirement and financial independence, which that book just poured right out of us because it’s something that we live and we know very well. And what happened was the publisher who we worked with on that book came back to us a couple months after that book was published and said, “Hey, we have an idea for this other book. And it’s investing for kids ages 8-12. And what do you guys think because you know about investing and financial concepts, and we think you guys might be able to pull this off.” And we thought, wow, we don’t have kids, we’re not teachers, we don’t hang out with kids. We have a few friends with kids, but we don’t spend a lot of time with them. And so we thought, man, this sounds really challenging and daunting. But it was during the 2020 year of COVID, so we had a lot of time on our hands. So we thought, let’s just go for it. And we dove into it, and it was very challenging because we wanted it to be interesting for kids and informative and fun but somehow, we put our heads together and we had a really good editing team that helped us with some of the concepts to relate to kids. And that’s — and we just dove into it and we just made it happen.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think you guys did an awesome job. You know, one of the things that stood out to me as my wife and I were looking through this book as parents of four young kids trying to teach this topic of money is that’s it’s very hands-on, it’s relatable, it’s digestible, lots of activities, really cool ideas. You know, I often find myself, especially writing, talking about this topic regularly, presenting on this topic, you take for granted how you learned some of this information along the way. You know, I often think, OK, take a concept like compound interest or, you know, mutual funds or index funds or ultimately trying to determine what your retirement savings goals, any of those concepts, and it’s very easy to get lost in the weeds. And I think it’s often hard to figure out, how am I going to break this down and teach this with my children and really work through this? And so I found myself looking through this, not only learning myself of oh, that’s a really neat way to teach a different concept or a very visual way or a nice activity to apply that information. So I think as I looked through this, whether someone is more advanced in their own knowledge and understanding of personal finance or whether they feel like they could also learn from these concepts, either one I think this book could be a really good guide for them alongside of working with their child. So great work in the work that you put together with the book. And Allison, knowing your background is a technical project manager, I’m curious, I mean, how and why did you catch FIRE — pun intended here — with this topic, not only as an individual pursuit for financial independence but also in wanting to help guide others to the work that you’re doing with RetireBy45.com and with the book “Investing for Kids.” Where does the interest come from?

Allison Tom: Part of it is that my college degree is actually psychology and education. So I had all these grand ideas of becoming a teacher, an elementary school teacher, after I graduated from college. But you know, after a couple of years, it dawned on me that frankly, our teachers are woefully underpaid. And there was pretty much there was no clear financial path for me to continue being a teacher making the salary I was making, so I was living in Boston at the time and I moved back to New York where we eventually met waiting tables, of all things. And we came out to San Francisco on a whim, we were on vacation, we were in our mid-20s, we thought, alright, let’s check out San Francisco. And so I bounced around from career to career and ended up on a consulting company that eventually brought me into the technical world of the Bay Area. But you know, so being a project manager is basically being a glorified teacher. So it’s dropping people, wrangling people to do things that you want them to do but do it in a way that makes them want to be — work as a team and learn from each other. So in a way, it was being a project manager was — it had very similar tendencies as it was being a teacher. And so we had always thought, oh, it would be great to retire early, but we didn’t really know what retiring early meant. We thought, oh, 55, that seems like a really good age to retire. It’s earlier than 65, but it seems so far in the future. And living in the Bay Area, our expenses were so high that we were like, there’s no way, even if we’re making decent salaries between the two of us that we’re ever going to retire. But about 11 years or so ago, Dylin came down with double pneumonia and was in the ICU for about 10 days and in the hospital altogether for almost two weeks. And that for us was a light bulb moment because he was within a 50/50 chance that he would make it. And so you know, after that, we kind of thought, OK, do we really want to keep working for the next 25 years or so? And so we kind of like made it our goal to get out of the rat race as soon as we could. And so we kind of fell into by accident. We can talk about that later, but it just — it kind of was a natural progression from all of the things that we’ve been doing over time.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that makes sense. And I appreciate you sharing some of the background and story. We’ll come back to how you got to that point of early retirement, obviously as I mentioned in the introduction, early 40s to be able to accomplish that goal, and we’ll talk a little bit about how you got to that path, why that was possible as well. And so let’s first dig into some of the book of “Investing for Kids.” Let’s start with the main characters of the book, the Dollar Duo: Mr. Finance and Investing Woman. Allison, tell us more about these two characters, how you came up with the idea, why it was important to the overall text, and how those characters can really help the learner, again, 8- to 12-year-old is the target group here, engage with the material throughout the book.

Allison Tom: Well, first of all, it was kind of funny, today is actually Superheroes Day, so –

Tim Ulbrich: There we go.

Allison Tom: It’s a perfect segue into the topic. We were actually taking a walk one day as we were writing the book, and we were talking about politics, of all things. And we were trying to figure out in the administration, whichever administration, whoever won the presidency, what each president could do to make their administration better. And so we kind of were talking and talking about of all things, the Justice League of America and who we would think would be a good fit for making this country a better country. And so the whole idea of the Justice League, kind of thought, we thought, oh, superheroes. Kids love superheroes. Let’s talk to our publisher about bringing in some superheroes. And we were like, well, I don’t know if they’ll go for that, there’s some extra graphics involved and it could be expensive, but we felt that it would really be a good way for kids to relate to finances. And so we kind of pushed hard for this idea of having superheroes teach kids finance.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that stood out to me in addition to how visual it is. This does not — especially for a topic like investing, right, can be weighty at times, it can be overwhelming, I often find myself when I’m giving a talk on this topic, starts with excitement often when we think about what the — and then you get into the weeds and you see the eyes gloss over, right, and other things. And this does not read like a textbook in any way, shape, or form. And I’m grateful for that. So thank you for the illustrations, the activities, the superheroes, but I think it very much reads like an interactive, applicable, nuts-and-bolts, important information, but how do I actually apply it and hopefully get excited about this information. Again, we’re thinking about an 8- to 12-year-old of wanting to really hopefully empower them to be excited with this for the rest of their own financial journey. And I very much read this book, as I mentioned, being a father of four boys who also lives and breathes personal finance, I really do often find myself in conversation with my boys about money. And honestly, I struggle at times with making the topic of money tangible and meaningful. And it can feel abstract, especially when I find myself trying to say and teach a principle that I very much understand but it feels more abstract as I talk it out loud and especially when you start to view it through the lens of a child. And so I like how you start the book with Chapter 1 on Money 101. You cover important topics like money doesn’t grow on trees, ways to earn money, a little bit of entrepreneurship in there, which is really cool, the history of money, where to keep money. And so Dylin, here’s the challenge that I’m seeing with my boys. In the age of credit cards, debit cards, direct deposit, online banking, digital currency, electronic payment methods, it can feel difficult to teach a child about money when you don’t see it. Right? There’s very little actual, physical cash and therefore, it can be hard to connect work and I think the opportunities from work with earning money and therefore, the opportunity to then save and see it grow. So what are some tips and strategies as you put this book together as well as the other teaching you’ve done on this topic about how can we teach kids about money in a way that it can be relatable, it can be tangible, and then hopefully it becomes memorable for them.

Dylin Redling: Yeah, you know, that’s a really good point about money being very digital in this day and age. I remember when I was a kid, one of the coolest things was my grandmother would give me and my cousins 50 single dollars for Christmas and for our birthdays. They would come in a little box just big enough to hold those 50 $1 bills.

Tim Ulbrich: I love that.

Dylin Redling: And — yeah, it was really cool. And you know, $50 back then for a kid was a lot of money. And those 50 $1 bills would last a really long time. I would take them into the arcade, into the pizza parlor, whatever. And so maybe one way to do it is to actually bring back physical money. And I don’t think the amount really matters that much. But like you said, I mean, being able to tangibly feel it, see it, and understand it, it helps a lot more if you’re using physical money. And I’ll actually give an example of that we used on our blog and in actually “Start Your FIRE” book. I don’t think we mentioned it in “Investing for Kids,” but it’s a little story I like to tell about a money lesson that I actually learned from Allison when we were waiting tables in New York. So we met in a big restaurant in Times Square, and Allison grew up with a little bit of a better financial education in her household than I did. My single mother was wonderful, but it was all paycheck-to-paycheck, there wasn’t a lot of saving or investing. So I came into our initial relationship not very good at dealing with money. So anyway, we were waiting tables. So all of our money pretty much was in tips. So we would have tons of cash. And I remember just putting the money — I would wad it up into balls, I would stuff it into all four of my pockets because I was busy. And then we would go out afterwards and Allison saw how I was treating my money, and she was like, “What are you doing? How do you even keep track of that? That’s awful.” And so she taught me this little lesson. And she doesn’t even remember this because this was 25 years ago, but it stuck out in my head. And basically, I call it the Wallet Lesson. When you take all of your bills and you put them nicely, neatly in order from small to big or big to small, whatever works, fold it neatly into your wallet. And it’s really simple, but the reason it was impactful for me is because it just got me to think about how to respect and treat money. You know, you work really hard for money –

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Dylin Redling: And if you don’t treat it well, you don’t respect it, you know, that $50 might not seem like a big deal. But when it gets to $100,000 or $500,000 and you don’t have that same respect and feel for what that money represents and how hard it was to earn it, you’re not going to put it and treat it and save it and protect it as well as you could.

Tim Ulbrich: Such a good example of a behavioral move, right? The number of dollars didn’t change, but how you treated them, how you respected them, how you viewed them, and I think many of our listeners, we talk on this show often that I believe personal finance, it’s about the math and it’s about the behavior, and both of those are very important and some of those types of moves or here, teaching kids in that way, I think can be very powerful as well. Allison, Chapter 2, save your money, you have an activity titled “Be an Interest Rate Detective.” I love this. I thought this was a really cool interactive activity where you challenge the reader to work with an adult to research interest rates for a local bank savings account, a CD, so a Certificate of Deposit, and an online savings account. So again, this was just one of many example activities you have throughout the book, but why is an activity like this so important in terms of someone being an interest rate detective to experience and go through as they begin their journey of understanding some of the basics of investing?

Allison Tom: So part of it is we wanted all the activities to be something that kids could do with the adult in their life. And we didn’t assume that every child has a parent because we know in this modern day and age that families are different nowadays, and you might have two moms or two dads or a grandmother or grandfather or a guardian of some sort. So we wanted something that people could do together with — kids could do together with someone else. And we thought, oh, it’s going to be interesting because banks are closed during COVID. When we were writing the book, it was right in the heart of shelter in place. But we thought, well, you know, kids have access to — most kids have access to a computer, they can at least walk around to a local bank and banks always have their advertisements on their windows with their interest rates. But we thought it would be an interesting way for kids to see what is in their environment and practice some good behaviors like oh, what does interest rate mean? What is APR? Those are, they’re jumbled letters and so you actually learn what the acronym stands for. And so we want to make sure that kids could kind of connect their physical world to their these abstract ideas about money. So all these activities are kind of a way to get kids to start thinking about it, and we were like, oh, kids aren’t really going to want to do activities, it’s extra homework. So we tried to make them fun and things that they could actually do and feel like they were learning something.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think this was a good example where the activity really, to me, is a rabbit hole of other learning, right? So if you go to the bank and do this activity, just like you suggested, Allison, it leads to other conversations and questions like, what is the federal reserve? And what is an insured account? What does that mean? You talk about that in the book, you know, how do you explain the federal reserve? What is compound interest? Why is that so important? What is principle? What’s interest? What do terms mean? And I think it, again, leads to further conversations, which obviously hopefully spark some motivation and curiosity to learn more on this topic. Dylin, in Chapter 3, Introduction to Investing, you cover very important topics, you know, why to invest, risk v. reward — and I love the Risk-o-meter throughout the book, that was really neat — liquidity, the importance of conducting research, and connecting back to my previous comment about the difficulties teaching a child about money when it may not be tangible, you can’t see it, can’t feel it type of a mindset, I think this is another area where parents may feel challenged to teach a child the importance of investing when again, it might feel somewhat abstract and here, we’re talking about delayed gratification, right? So not spending money on something today that has an instant reward. I think back to my childhood, it was driving to the corner store, buying baseball cards, buying candy, you earn the money, you spent the money, you saw the reward instantly. So here, the activity on investing, which I thought helped to really drive this concept further, you talk about an activity of picking a stock and really going through that process of understanding what’s involved there. So talk us through that type of an activity, what’s involved in that, and why that’s important to help a child relate to the concepts of investing.

Dylin Redling: Yeah, sure. It’s interesting because I can also relate it to how Allison and I do our own investing. And most of what we do, to be honest, are buying mutual funds and index funds. We don’t do a lot of single stock buying. However, there are some advantages to just helping a child or anybody, really, think about, well, if you were to buy a single stock, what would the thought process be when you do that? We actually just wrote an interesting post on our blog just about a week ago where we had $10,000 that we wanted to experiment with. And what we did is we selected five different stocks to invest that $10,000. So $2,000 per stock. And I went through the process in that blog post of why we would do this. And it wasn’t to get rich quick or to see what would happen in a week or a month. This particular blog post talked about a one-year time frame. And it’s the same with the activity for the child. I think we used a shorter — a relatively short time frame so they could at least measure their success. At the end of the day, investing, as you know, as your listeners know, it’s very much a long-term process where you’re investing over years and decades. But again, to get the child to think about some of the things that you might want to think about with whether you’re investing in stocks or any sort of investment, what are the things that go into that thought process? And so getting back to that blog post I wrote, some of the stocks that I suggested that we test out, one was a blockchain ETF. So now that bitcoin and other coin-based just went public, those are things that we wouldn’t necessarily invest in directly. But a blockchain ETF is an example of a way you could dip your toe into that technology. So that was the thought process there. Another example was a cruise company, NCL, Norwegian Cruise Line. Now that COVID is starting to disappear and everyone’s getting vaccinated, people, there’s this pent-up demand to start traveling again. So we thought, hey, in the next year, NCL may actually start to do really good. And they even have a program where if you have 100 shares, you get extra bonus points. And so the idea is to think about all the different aspects to that investment, like how does it relate to what’s going on in the world right now? And what other pros and cons are there to that investment?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think we share your philosophy. What I heard there is our planning team often says a good investing plan should probably be as about boring as watching paint dry.

Dylin Redling: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: At the end of the day, it’s about a long-term play. But I like this activity as a concept. You know, I remember I had a great Econ101 teacher that had us do a similar activity. And it’s very memorable because it also leads to many other conversations like well, what type of influence does my marketing have? Or I thought this was going to go this way, and it didn’t go this way. Maybe I had some overconfidence in my selection of things. So why is diversification important? So I think, again, reading it and doing it, two very, very different things. And I think people experiencing this firsthand, especially you think of an 8- to 12-year-old, a very kinesthetic learner, right, hands-on experience that moment, be able to learn through that experience. Allison, as I went through the book, many times I thought to myself, man, what if I would have had some of this information earlier? What if I would have had this in middle school or high school or perhaps even earlier? And shoutout to my parents, who did an awesome job of the foundations, grew up in a small business, felt like I had a little bit of a head start. But outside of some K-12 programs and in higher education, I would say it’s largely absent, maybe some elective courses or some opportunities. And so I can’t help but think like, why aren’t we doing more of this? Why aren’t we covering more of this in a K-12 education? I mean, this type of book, this type of experience, these types of activities would be a home run in teaching kids about money. Here, we’re taking 8-12 investing, but obviously we all know it’s broader than that as well. So question here, I’m not asking you to solve the personal finance educational system woes, but why do you think this is not more foundational to our educational system in terms of personal finance education?

Allison Tom: Right. So I think part of it is that our generation didn’t really learn this either. And so as the educators come up with their curriculum, I think honestly, a lot of adults are really intimidated by personal finance. And so it’s something that seems easy enough for them to cut out of the education system as an elective because well, if they don’t understand it, then kids aren’t going to understand it. And if they’re intimidated by it, then kids are definitely going to not understand it and be intimidated by it, so let’s not even talk about it, which actually is one of the reasons why we thought it was important to write the book. We didn’t get this education when we were growing up. I know my parents are second-generation immigrants. And so the money lessons that they learned were from their parents, who grew up during the Great Depression. And as immigrants coming over to this country, they just pooled their money and they saved and they saved and they worked 20 hours a day to make money and then they would maybe invest it in the bank, although plenty of my relatives didn’t even bother with that. So my lessons growing up were save and save and save and save. I had a little piggy bank, and I would put all my coins in from the piggy bank, but that was the only thing that I learned. And so it wasn’t until I got to college, and then I had my first credit card that I just — oof. It was bad. I did not understand the concept of paying credit cards and interest rates and late fees and minimum payments. And so, you know, I got in trouble with credit cards after I graduated. And it wasn’t until after that that I thought, oh, I really need to learn more about what’s going on here. And so I started watching some shows on PBS, but by then, you know, I’m in my early 20s at that point. My learning took a lot longer for the habits to become engrained in me. So you know, I really do think that if kids could see this stuff earlier, it would be so much more impactful. You know, I’ve talked to a girlfriend of mine, her daughter is 17 and she read the book and she was like, “Yeah, you know, I’m going to start doing the savings plan when I get a job.” My friend was laughing because she’s like, my daughter doesn’t have a job. But she was just like, she got inspired by it, and I thought, oh, if we could just get kids to learn this stuff sooner –

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Allison Tom: All the great things we could do with them. So hopefully. Hopefully.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I love that, to that point, Allison. I think it was early in the book, you have the reader go through an activity where they identify problems, things that could be improved upon, right? And one of the things I often say is that any business is a solution to a problem, and that solution is one that people care about and are willing to pay for. And you know, I love that because I think for a child, like if they can think about, what are some things that could be done better? You know, one of them you proposed in the book, which was really cool because we recently just bought this — or actually we got it as a gift for our kids from our family — is you mention like chess. Really hard game for kids to play, kids to learn. Why isn’t there a solution out there that can make chess easier to play? Sure enough, there is. There’s a card game where you draw cards, you learn the basic moves of chess. So things like that, I think you’re inspiring some of the creative thinking, the problem solving, and laying some of the seeds of entrepreneurship or even for those that don’t own their own company, which would be the vast majority of folks, intrepreneurship, how can you be a problem solver within your organization? And how can you create solutions that make you a valuable asset within that organization? I want to shift gears a bit to connect some of the work that you have in “Investing for Kids” with what you cover in your site, Retireby45.com. You mentioned your other FIRE book as well. And I got the impression that you both, you believe that everyone could put together — especially an 8- to 12-year-old reading the “Investing for Kids” book — put together a plan for FIRE, again Financial Independence Retire Early — by the age of 45. So Dylin, our listeners know firsthand that time in the market equals success, and that compound interest, as you mentioned in the book, is the eighth wonder of the world. So we know the math is possible if someone starts at an early age. But why do you think it’s important that someone plans for FIRE by the age of 45?

Dylin Redling: Whether you’re able to retire in your 40s or your 50s or you do a traditional retirement in your 60s or even beyond, Allison’s dad, for example, is 70 now — or slightly older — and has no intentions of stopping working even though Allison suggests that he stop and enjoy life. But he’s got a job that he really loves. And so there’s a lot of people out there that are like that. So we love our FIRE lifestyle and the fact that we left our W2 jobs in our 40s, but we know it’s not for everybody. But what we do also know is that the concepts of Financial Independence are good for anybody, no matter when you might want to retire. And those concepts are really about doing the right thing with your money. So it starts with saving, it starts with being somewhat frugal — and when we say frugal, we don’t mean living a spartan lifestyle. We just mean not going crazy with money with spending on things that you don’t want or that you don’t need or you feel like you have to keep up with the Joneses and get a brand new SUV every two years. So there’s that, and of course investing wisely. And you know, we have another story that we write out on our blog, which kind of I think can be somewhat inspiring to people who are in their 20s and maybe haven’t really done anything with their finances yet. We, as Allison alluded to earlier, kind of our story is we met in New York and then we moved to San Francisco. And we were in our mid-20s at the time. And we still hadn’t invested a dollar yet. And it wasn’t until our late 20s that we got “real jobs” with a 401k plan and that sort of thing. And so it wasn’t until our late 20s that we really started investing. And our entire investment life cycle, if you will, was about 17 years from our late 20s to our early 40s. And in that time, we just were so diligent about dollar cost averaging, we did — we invested into both our 401k, our IRA, and a taxable account once we got some extra income literally on a weekly basis for years and years and years, no matter what the market was doing. Through the 2001 .com crash because we’re both working in that industry and of course through the ‘08-’09 recession. Never stopped. And so those kind of habits, again, are good for anybody no matter what your retirement goals are, just really those financial habits are going to put you in a great position.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I’m glad you shared that, Dylin. One of the questions I had for you was I read your story of not really late 20s, early 30s getting serious about investing, but retired or achieving FIRE by 43, 44, so short window of time, right? We tend to think of a very long trajectory of savings. You mentioned 17 years. So my question was what was the secret sauce? And if I heard you correctly, it was tax-advantaged accounts, 401k’s, IRAs, some taxable accounts and dollar cost averaging and being consistent. Is that fair?

Dylin Redling: Yeah. You know, a couple other things we did — we did the phrase “side hustle” is really popular now. But when we did it, we just called it a side business. This was in the mid-2000s. I came up with an affiliate marketing business that I ran on the weekends. And it ended up being a third income for us. So there’s things like maximizing your income. And then another concept — I’ll shoot it over to Allison to talk about — is geographic arbitrage. And that helped us kind of move about nine years ahead of schedule. Do you want to talk about how we did that?

Allison Tom: Sure. So geographic arbitrage has a lot of different meanings in the — for people. And the gist of it is that you leverage your current salary and move to a lower cost location. And so most people think that is oh, I’m going to make my United States salary and move to Thailand or Costa Rica, where the cost of living is exceedingly low. We did it by moving from San Francisco to Oakland, California, which geographically is a 10-mile difference but at the time, we were able to save about 50% on our housing costs.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Allison Tom: So yeah, it was pretty insane. For being 10 miles away, two or three train stops away on our BART system, we were able to pay off our condo in Oakland in cash by selling our place in San Francisco, which alleviated all the mortgage payments, the increase in property payments and our insurance went down as well. So that, Dylin calculated later, saved us probably about nine years of working because our mortgage in San Francisco was so astronomical that just cutting 50% off just pushed us into the financial independence sphere that much sooner. So it’s things like that. Obviously not everybody is going to be able to save 50% of their housing by moving 10 miles away, but there are other ways to do it. You can do things like house hacking where if you have space on your property, you could build an extra unit and rent it out or if you have an extra bedroom, you could rent it out and have a roommate or Airbnb it. So there are ways tod do it without going through the extreme example that we had. So there are plenty of ways to cut costs in your life that are relatively painless, that we’ve talked about all the time, so there are just different ways to do it to achieve FIRE. And some people don’t even choose to do the early retiring like my father is the example. So retirement is really more of the optional part. We’re not saying you have to retire, you have to leave your job and just sit around drinking mojitos all day long, although it’s certainly not a bad lifestyle. But you know, the retiring part is up to the individual.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I’m glad you said that, Allison, because I know many of our listeners love what they’re doing as pharmacists and they worked hard, and they got a doctorate degree and they have student loan debt and they invested in that education. And so my read is that many pharmacists are captivated by the idea and the power of financial independence. And you know, I believe that’s a goal we all should strive for for a variety of reasons with RE, Retire Early, being one of those perhaps reasons, but other things as well in terms of why that financial independence may be important. So nine years, nine years was estimated from that one decision, which I’m coming full-circle, Allison, about what you shared at the beginning of Dylin being in the hospital with double pneumonia. And when you start to think about the value of time, I mean, nine years and doing some of those calculations and what does that mean for one’s personal situation, I think that’s a really powerful example of taking something that can be mathematical or objective and looking at it in a different mindset. If we were to make this move or this move, what does that mean for us in terms of timeline to retirement, working part-time, pursuing another opportunity, what does that mean for one’s goals towards financial independence? I’m glad you discussed geographic arbitrage because one of the things we see in our profession in pharmacy is that unfortunately, a pharmacist’s income usually does not translate with cost of living. So here I am in the Midwest and that income for a pharmacist in the Bay Area might be a little bit more for a similar role but nowhere near the cost of living difference between Columbus, Ohio and San Francisco, California. So I think this is a move, especially for many of our listeners that might be saying, you know, ‘I’m making a decent income, but I’ve got a lot of work to do on student loans, I want to invest, I want to buy a home, I want to do this or that. And at the end of the day, there’s only so much income.’ So is a move, whether it’s near, within 10 miles, or something a little bit more significant, is that an option that somebody may be able to pursue? Allison, what have you guys been doing since achieving FIRE? You know, what’s been the goals, what’s been the priority, how have you been spending time? I think that’s one of the other common objections that comes up is like, if I retire at 45, like I don’t even know what I would do with my time. Tell us a little bit about that journey since you guys have achieve FIRE.

Allison Tom: So it’s funny, we — so we FIREd quite by accident. We were both working in tech startups, and Dylin got laid off and then I got laid off about five weeks afterwards. And so we kind of took the time after we were both laid off to travel a little bit. That was one of the things that two people who are working can’t always schedule, coordinate their schedules, to take some time off. And so we thought, alright, this is the perfect time. We went to Europe for two weeks and did a cruise around the Mediterranean and had a blast and then came back and thought, alright, we’ve got to get back to work. So we went about — we went on interviews and we just saw just how miserable people were at their jobs. Just so stressed out, and I interviewed with this one guy who was like, “You need to tell me who said this about us so I can go talk to them.” I’m like, I don’t want to work for you. You’re scary. And so you know, the three months turned into six months and then nine months and then Dylin figured out kind of like back of the envelope math, figured out that we could actually retire without having to go back to work anymore. He stumbled into the 4% Rule, which we still hadn’t at that point heard the term FIRE before. You know, the first few years we did a fair amount of traveling domestically. Like we would go back to visit his mother and my father, who both live on the East Coast, which is one of the things you just don’t get time to do when you’re working is spending time with family. And so you know, if we would go back East, we would maybe spend two days with each parent because they don’t live that close to each other. And now, we can actually go and spend a week with each parental unit. And that makes a big difference because, you know, they’re getting older and living across the country, it’s harder to connect with them. So we do a lot more slow travel where we don’t have to feel rushed between people. And then it’s funny because we — our retirement has changed as time goes by. So for people who are concerned that oh, what am I going to do with my time? Your time is yours. You can now make your own schedule. And that, to me, is the beauty of not just financial independence, it’s financial freedom because you can choose what you want to do. And so you know, the first two years were traveling domestically, the second two years were more about traveling internationally. And we had two cats that passed away at 19. So for us, they were like our kids. And so we did not do a lot of traveling away from them until they passed on. And so once they did, we’re like, alright, we’re going to go crazy and go travel around the globe. And so the last — and then the last two years have been focused on writing books and going to financial conferences and kind of learning from others and then applying that and communicating out to audiences like yours. That’s the beauty of the time being yours is you can make it whatever you want to do. We also do a lot more work with our community that we never had time to do when we were working. So we’re a lot more invested in our neighborhood, and we spend more time working with businesses in our neighborhood to bring in more business. So having that luxury of time means you can go explore whatever interests pop up. So you know, did we ever think that we would be working with small businesses two years ago? Probably not. But now we are, and we’re advocates for small businesses in our neighborhood, and that’s something we would never have thought we would have done when we first retired.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s very cool. And I read as well your goal of 60 by 60. Sixty countries to visit by the age of 60. If I understand it, you’re about halfway through. Looking forward to following your journey. I’m hopeful you’ll be blogging about it along the way as well. Dylin, I’m going to throw the last question I have over for you. And one of the things I think about when it comes to early retirement and achieving financial independence or the FIRE movement is that it really does require delayed gratification and at times, you mentioned the word frugality earlier. And that frugality can be at various levels. As you mentioned, we’re not necessarily talking spartan type of frugality. My question here though is how do we strike the balance? You know, whether it’s for ourselves or teaching our kids about saving and investing to take care of our future selves but also valuing and making sure we understand that it’s important that we enjoy some of the money along the way as well. I find myself often struggling with this individually of, OK, I know I need to take care of my future self and probably sometimes I do that at the expense of the experiences and the enjoyment today. And I think striking this balance is really important. What are your thoughts on that?

Dylin Redling: You know, I’ll actually plug a couple of other books besides ours that I really like. One is “A Simple Path to Wealth” by Janelle Collins, which I highly recommend. And another one is actually one of Allison’s favorites. It has a funny title, it’s “I Will Teach You to Be Rich” by —

Allison Tom: Ramit Sethi.

Dylin Redling: Ramit Sethi. And we saw him speak. He was a keynote speaker at FinCon a couple years ago. And one of the things that he said, which really resonated with me and it goes to your question, is spend liberally on things that you enjoy. But hold back aggressively on things that are not important to you. And it’s a very simple concept. But again, it goes directly to your question, and it’s really — maybe you or your kids or whoever’s thinking about this makes a list. Here are the things I’m passionate about. Here are the things that I really enjoy. I love travel, I like eating out at restaurants, I like entertainment, sports, whatever it is. And I’m going to set my budget to focus on those things. I’m going to be OK — maybe I’ll go to a World Series game because I’m a huge baseball fan. Or I’m going to set a goal to go to every baseball park in America. You know, whatever that goal might be. Conversely, think about the things that aren’t that important to you like maybe a brand new car is not important to you, so you drive your car for 10-20 years and you really just never focus on spending a lot of money on that. And so those are the concepts that I think are something to really think about. And for us, that’s what we’ve always done. When people look at our lifestyle from the outside or even some of our friends, you know, they may think, wow, we’ve always lived in pretty expensive apartments — or condos or houses, so they might think, wow, they spend a lot of money. But if you look a little deeper, like we had a car for almost 20 years. We had a Volkswagen Jetta. We just recently got a new-to-us couple years old Toyota Corolla. So there’s an example where we just — you know, having a brand new car wasn’t that important to us. But again, we have the 60 by 60 goal. So travel is really important to us. And we have no problem spending that extra money to go travel for a few months and really try to see the world because that’s something that we’re passionate about. That being said, when we do travel, we try to — we don’t stay at four-star hotels because part of our kind of nature is to also find some deals here and there and to just spend consciously, to just spend our money kind of wisely.

Allison Tom: We prefer to spend money on the experiences rather than the hotel room that we’re putting our suitcase in.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. And I was at that keynote that you were at, and with Ramit, and I’ll never forget it. I mean, the concept that he talks about in “I Will Teach You to Be Rich,” money dials, right, is find the things that are of value to you and dial it up. And find the things that are not and dial them down. And you know, I remember hearing that, and I was like, heck yeah. It just makes so much sense. And you know, to the comment of experiences and even the literature really showing happiness related to money, it’s experience and giving typically are the areas where we see that biggest connection. So Allison and Dylin, I really appreciate you guys taking time to come on the show. Kudos on the work here with “Investing for Kids,” I really enjoyed it, as well as the work that you’re doing at Retireby45.com and your other book, “Start Your FIRE: A Modern Guide to Early Retirement.” As it relates to the book “Investing for Kids,” I hope our audience will pick up a copy of this, available at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, many other online vendors as well. I really did find it engaging, it was rich with relevant information, practical exercises to apply the information, as I mentioned, certainly does not look, feel, or read like a textbook. And so I think many in our community are going to find it helpful. What’s the best place for our audience to go to follow the work that the two of you are doing?

Dylin Redling: Well, our — I’ll plug our website, and I’ll have Allison plug our Instagram account. Retireby45.com is our website, and we blog there on a once or twice a month with a fresh new blog post, and we have a bunch of stuff on there, courses and other things. And then Allison’s been working on really putting together a pretty cool Instagram account.

Allison Tom: So we have Instagram and Twitter both @retire_by_45. Yeah, it’s been an interesting challenge trying to get into the social media, the social media space.

Tim Ulbrich: Very good. We will link to both of those in the show notes as well as the Retireby45.com as well as the books that we’ve mentioned, not only your books but the others that you referenced as well. So the two of you, thank you again very much for your time. I really appreciate it.

Allison Tom: Thanks, Tim. It’s great.

Dylin Redling: Thanks.

Allison Tom: O-H

Dylin Redling: I-O

Tim Ulbrich: I-O!

Dylin Redling: Thanks, Tim. Great talking to you.

Tim Ulbrich: As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

Current Student Loan Refinance Offers

Advertising Disclosure

Note: Referral fees from affiliate links in this table are sent to the non-profit YFP Gives. Read the full advertising disclosure here.	Bonus	Starting Rates	About	YFP Gives accepts advertising compensation from companies that appear on this site, which impacts the location and order in which brands (and/or their products) are presented, and also impacts the score that is assigned to it. Company lists on this page DO NOT imply endorsement. We do not feature all providers on the market.
	$800* Loans* ≥150K = $800 100-149K = $450 <100K = $350	Variable: 5.28%+ APR (with autopay)* Fixed: 5.28%+ APR (with autopay)* *All bonus payments are by gift card. See terms	The "Kayak" of student loan refinancing, Credible displays personalized prequalified rates from multiple lenders	Check Rate
	$750* Loans ≥150K = $750* ≥50K-150k = $300	Fixed: 5.49%+ APR (with autopay)	A marketplace that compares multiple lenders that are credit unions and local banks	Check Rate
	$500* Loans ≥50K = $500	Variable: 4.99%+ (with autopay)* Fixed: 4.96%+ (with autopay)** Read rates and terms at SplashFinancial.com	Splash is a marketplace with loans available from an exclusive network of credit unions and banks as well as U-Fi, Laurenl Road, and PenFed	Check Rate

Recent Posts

[pt_view id=”f651872qnv”]

YFP 339: YFP Podcast Replay – Why Negotiation is an Important Part of Your Financial Plan

Posted on December 21, 2023December 21, 2023 by YFP Media

Tim Ulbrich & Tim Baker talk about negotiation, why it’s an important part of the financial plan, the goals of negotiation, and tips for conducting an effective negotiation.

Episode Summary

Tim Baker joins Tim Ulbrich on this episode to dig into all things negotiation. Negotiation is the process of discovery and a way to advocate for yourself and what your needs are. Tim Baker explains that negotiation is an important part of your financial plan for many reasons. He explains that settling for a lower salary can have a significant impact on your present and future finances because you may accrue less in retirement savings and potentially other investments. However, negotiation doesn’t just lie in your salary. You can also negotiate benefits like flex scheduling, paid time off as well as potentially parental leave and professional development opportunities, among others.

Tim Baker shares that 99% of hiring managers are expecting new hires to negotiate and build their initial offer as such. Many don’t end up negotiating because they don’t want to risk the offer being revoked, but Tim says that the majority of the time you should present a counter offer.

Tim then digs into the stages of the negotiation process that include the interview, receiving an offer, presenting a counter offer and accepting the offer and position. He shares many strategies and tips for each stage as well as additional techniques to use throughout the process.

About Today’s Guest

Tim Baker is the Co-Founder and Director of Financial Planning at Your Financial Pharmacist. Founded in 2015, YFP is a fee-only financial planning firm and connects with the YFP community of 12,000+ pharmacy professionals via the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast podcast, blog, website resources and speaking engagements.

Tim attended the United States Military Academy majoring in International Relations and branching Armor. After his military career, he worked as a logistician with a major retailer and a construction company. After much deliberation, Tim decided to make a pivot in his career and joined a small independent financial planning firm in 2012. In 2016, he launched his own financial planning firm Script Financial and in 2019 merged with Your Financial Pharmacist. Tim now lives in Columbus, Ohio with his wife (Shay), two kids (Olivia and Liam), and dog (Benji).

Key Points from the Episode

Negotiation can be a key part of the financial plan
Income is the lifeblood of the financial plan.
Learn ways to grow and protect income.
Advocating for yourself is important, and it’s not always just about salary.
A lower salary can have long term consequence down the road.
Employers expect some negotiations with candidates.
Salary alone should not be looked at in a vacuum; many factors can contribute a more desirable work positon.
A lot of time and effort goes into finding the right position for a job, so when an offer is made it is likely not going to be derailed by candidate asking for a higher salary.
A good candidate asks questions and listens well.
Make sure you get offers in writing.
Never lie in an interview about current salary range.
Using a precise number versus a rounded number in a counter offer has more success.
Using the anchoring technique to provide a salary range can help you land the salary you ultimately desire.
Asking a calibrated question is a question with really no fixed answer that gives the illusion of control.
Using “how”, “when”, “why” calibrated questions can be helpful in showing what you’re really trying to achieve without causing emotions to rise.
Mirroring technique is repeating 1-3 words back to the employer to show you are listening well and in turn, making them feel respected and understood.
Labeling and validating emotions technique allow you to hear what is going on in an organization while remaining neutral.
The accusation audit is a technique that’s used to identify and label probably the worst thing that your counterpart could say about it.

Episode Highlights

“Yeah, so negotiation, you know, it’s really a process of discovery. It really shouldn’t be viewed as a battle. It’s really a process of discovery. It’s kind of that awkward conversation that you should be obligated to have because you know, if you don’t want to advocate for yourself professionally, who will?” – Tim Baker

“And I believe this first stat comes from SHRM, which is the Society for Human Resource Management. So I think this is like the biggest association for like HR and Human Resource personnel in the country. And the stat that I use is that 99% of hiring managers expect prospective hires to negotiate. So if you think about that, you know, the overwhelming majority expect you the prospective hire to negotiate. And they build their initial offers as such.” – Tim Baker

“So typically most jobs, there’s — obviously there’s an application process, there’s interviews, there’s second interviews, there’s maybe on-site visits, there’s kind of looking at all the candidates and then extending offers. If you get to that offer stage, you’re pretty — they’ve identified as you’re the person that they want. So sometimes a little bit of back-and-forth is not going to derail any such deal. So it’s really, really important to understand that.” -Tim Baker

“So when you get that interview, what I say is typically you want to talk less, listen more and learn more. Typically, the person that is talking the most is not in control of the conversation. The one that’s listening and asking good questions is in control.” -Tim Ulbrich

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

(INTRO)

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker, welcome back to the show.

Tim Baker: Yeah, happy to be here. How’s it going, Tim?

Tim Ulbrich: It’s going. Excited to talk negotiation, something we discuss a lot in presentations, a lot I know that you discuss with clients as a part of the financial plan, but we haven’t addressed it directly on the show before. So I’m excited that we get a chance to dig into this topic. And we know that negotiation can carry a lot of power and can be used across the board really in life, right? It could be negotiating terms for a new or existing job position, buying a car, buying a house, negotiating with your kids or spouse — kidding, not kidding as we’ll talk about here in a little bit. So we’re going to focus predominantly on salary negotiation, but really these techniques can be applied to many areas of the financial plan and really life as a whole. So Tim, I know that for you, negotiation is a key piece of the financial plan. And you and our CFPs over at YFP talk about negotiation in the context of financial planning, which I would say is probably not the norm of the financial planning industry and services. So let’s start with this: Why is negotiation such an important piece of the financial plan?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think if we look at YFP’s mission, YFP’s mission is to empower pharmacists to achieve financial freedom. So I think the building blocks of that really is kind of what we do day-in and day-out with clients at YFP Planning. And what I typically, or the way that we typically approach a financial plan is we really want to help the client grow and protect their income, which is the lifeblood of the financial plan. Without income, nothing moves. But we know that probably more importantly than that is grow and protect the balance sheet, the net worth, which means increasing assets efficiently and decreasing liabilities efficiently and ultimately moving the net worth number in the right direction. So those are both quantitative things. But then qualitatively, we want to make sure that we’re keeping all the goals in mind, so grow and protect income and net worth while keep the goals in mind. So to me, that’s our jam, you know? So when I say — when somebody asks me a question like we do the Ask a YFP CFP, and I always say, “Well, it depends.” A lot of it really depends on those foundational, like where are we at with the balance sheet and where do we want to go? Meaning what are our goals? What’s our why? What’s the life plan, what’s a wealthy life for you and how can we support that with the financial plan? So to go back to your question, my belief is that the income is a big part of that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Tim Baker: And what I’ve found working with many, many pharmacists is sometimes pharmacists are not great at advocating for themselves. You know, most of the people that I talk to when we talk about salary negotiation, they’re like, eh, I’m just thankful I have a job, and I’m in agreement with that. But sometimes a little bit of a negotiation and having some of the skills that we’ll talk about today to better advocate for yourself is important. And a lot of this stuff is not necessarily just for salary. It can be for a lot of different things. But to me, what I saw as a need here, same thing like most financial planners don’t walk you through kind of home purchase and what that looks like because most financial planners are working with people in their 50s, 60s and 70s. So that was a need for a lot of our clients who were like, “Hey, Tim, I’m buying this house. I don’t really know where to start. So we provide some education and some recommendations and advice around that. Same thing with salary, I kept seeing like well, maybe I took the job too quickly or I didn’t advocate for myself, so that’s really where we want to provide some education and advice, again, to have a better position from an income perspective.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think it’s a great tool to have in your toolbag, you know. And I think as we’ll talk about here, the goal is not to be an expert negotiator. There’s lots of resources that are out there that can help with this and make it tangible and practical, one of which we’ll draw a lot of the information today, I know you talk with clients, a resource I love, “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss. But I’m glad you mentioned, you know, I think there is often a sentiment — I know I’ve felt in myself where you know what, I’m glad to have a position, I’m glad to be making a good income. But that can be true and you still can be a good person and you still can negotiate and advocate for yourself and the value you bring to the organization.

Tim Baker: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: So I hope folks will hear that and not necessarily think that negotiation is bad and as we’ll talk about here in a moment, I think really can have a significant impact when you think about it as it relates to earnings over your career and what those additional earnings could mean. So Tim, break it down for us. What is negotiation and really, digging further, why is it important?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so negotiation, you know, it’s really a process of discovery. It really shouldn’t be viewed as a battle. It’s really a process of discovery. It’s kind of that awkward conversation that you should be obligated to have because you know, if you don’t want to advocate for yourself professionally, who will? And maybe you have a good mentor or something like that, but to me, the negotiation, again, is really to discover what you want and kind of what your counterpart, which might be a boss or a hiring manager or something like that. And it’s really important because settling for a lower salary can have really major financial consequences, both immediately and down the road. And you typically — raises that you receive are typically based on a percentage of your salary, so hey, we’re going to give you a 3% raise this year, a 5% raise. If you start off with a salary that you’re not happy with, then obviously that’s a problem. Accrue less in retirement savings, so that TSP, that 401k, 403b, again, you typically are going to get some type of match in a lot of cases, and then you’re going to put a percentage. So again, that could potentially be lower. But it’s not just about salary. It can be — I think another mistake that sometimes people make is that they’ll say, oh wow, I was making $125,000 and I’m taking a job that’s paying me $135,000 and they take a major step back on some of the non-salary things like benefits and flex scheduling and time off and things like that. But you know, you really want to make sure that compensation package that you have, you know, you’re happy with. Because underpaid really can make you feel resentful over the long run. So you want to make sure that you’re, again, right now we’re filming in the midst of a pandemic and the economy and the job market is tough, but you still want to advocate for yourself and make sure you’re getting the best compensation package that you can.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and as we’ll talk about here in a little bit, I think if we frame this differently, then maybe our understanding, our preconceived beliefs — you know, you mentioned it’s not a battle, you know, I think the goal is that you’re trying to come to an agreement or an understanding. And as we’ll talk about here, many employers are likely expecting this. And that number, in terms of those that are expecting versus those that are actually engaging in the conversation from an employee standpoint is very different.

Tim Baker: Sure.

Tim Ulbrich: So I think that might help give us confidence to be able to initiate some of those, and we’ll talk about strategies to do that. I do want to give one example, though, Tim, real quick. You had mentioned obviously if somebody earns less and receive small raises or they accrue less in retirement savings, that can have a significant impact. And I went down the rabbit hole prepping for this episode of just looking at a quick example of this where you have two folks that let’s say they both start working at the age of 28, they retire at their 65, so same starting point, same retirement age. Let’s assume they get a 3% cost of living adjustment every year for their career just to keep it simple. The only difference here is that one starts at $100,000 and one starts at $105,000. So because of either what they asked for in negotiations, whatever be the case, one starts $5,000 greater than the other. And if you play this out, same starting age, same ending age, same cost of living adjustments, one starts at a higher point, when it’s all said and done, one individual has about $300,000 more of earnings than the other. And this of course does not include differences that you also have because of higher salary. If you had a match, that would increase, that would compound, that would grow. If you were to switch jobs, you’re at a better point to now negotiate for a higher salary, all other benefits that aren’t included. But the significance of the starting point I think is something to really look at those numbers that often where you start can inform where you’re going, not only from cost of living adjustments but also future employment, right? So we know that where you start if you get a 3% raise, it’s of course going to be based off that number. If you decide to leave that employer and you go to another one, what do they ask you? How much did you make? You’re using that number. So that starting point is so critical, and I hope that new practitioners might even find some confidence in that to be able to engage in discussions knowing how significant those numbers can be over a career. So in that one example, that starting point is a difference of about $300,000. Crazy, right, when you look at it over a long time period.

Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s nuts. And I’d play the devil’s advocate, on the other side of that is again, so much — just like everything else with the financial plan, you can’t look at it in a vacuum. We’ve had clients take a lot less money and really, it was because of the student loans and how that would affect their strategy in terms of forgiveness and things like that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Tim Baker: So it is multifactorial. It’s definitely something that it should really be examined. And I think, again, when you look at the overall context of the financial plan. But to your point, Tim, that starting salary and really how you negotiate throughout the course of your career is going to be utterly important. And again, what we say is — we kind of downplay the income because I think so much of what’s kind of taught is like, oh, six-figure salary, you’ll be OK. And that’s not true. But then it is true that it is the lifeblood of the financial plan, so I think if you have a plan and you’re intentional with what you’re doing, that’s where you can really start making moves with regard to your financial outlook.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I’m glad you said that about salary shouldn’t be looked at in a silo. I mean, just to further that point, you’ve alluded to it already, these numbers don’t matter if there’s other variables that are non-monetary that matter more. Right? Whether that be time off or satisfaction in the workplace, opportunities that you have, feelings of accomplishment. I mean, the whole list of things you can’t necessarily put a number to, I mean, I would argue if those are really important, you’ve got to weigh those against whatever this number would be. And there’s a certain point where the difference in money isn’t worth it if there’s other variables that are involved, which usually there are. Hopefully we can get both, right? Salary and non-salary items.

Tim Baker: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: So interesting stats about negotiation, I’ve heard you present before on this topic, but I’d like you to share with our audience in terms of managers that are expecting hires to negotiate versus those that do. Talk us through some of those as I think it will help us frame and maybe change our perception on employers expecting and our willingness to engage in these conversations.

Tim Baker: Yeah, and I really need to cite this one. And I believe this first stat comes from SHRM, which is the Society for Human Resource Management. So I think this is like the biggest association for like HR and Human Resource personnel in the country. And the stat that I use is that 99% of hiring managers expect prospective hires to negotiate. So if you think about that, you know, the overwhelming majority expect you the prospective hire to negotiate. And they build their initial offers as such. So the example I give to clients is like, hey, we have a position that we could pay anywhere from $110,000 to $130,000, knowing that you know, Tim, if I’m offering this job to you, knowing that you’re probably going to negotiate with me. I’m going to offer it to you for $110,000 knowing that I have a little bit of wiggle room if you kind of come back with a counteroffer. But what a lot of my clients or people do that I talk with is they’ll just say, yes, I found a job, crappy job market, happy to get started, ready to get started. And they’re either overly enthusiastic to accept a job or they’re just afraid that a little bit of negotiation would hurt their outlook. So with that in mind is that you — the offers I think are built in a way that you should be negotiating and trying to, again, advocate for yourself.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and so if people are presenting positions often with a range in salary expecting negotiation, I hope that gives folks some confidence in OK, that’s probably expected and maybe shifts some of the perception away from, this whole thing could fall apart, which it could, right? At any given point in time, especially depending on the way you conduct yourself in that negotiation, which I think is really, really important to consider. But I think what we want to try to avoid, Tim, back to a comment you made earlier, is any resentment as well. I mean, if we think about this from a relationship standpoint, we want the employee to feel valued, and we want the employer to have a shot at retaining this individual long-term. So it’s a two-way relationship.

Tim Baker: Yeah, and it kind of comes up to where we were talking about what is the goal of negotiation. And really, the goal of negotiation is to come to some type of agreement.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: The problem with that is that people are involved in this. And we as people are emotional beings, so if we feel like that we’re treated unfairly or we don’t feel safe and secure or if we’re not in control of the conversation, our emotions can get the best of us. So that’s important. So again, there’s some techniques that you can utilize to kind of mitigate that. But you know, to allude to your point about negotiating, the fear to kind of potentially mess up the deal, there’s a stat that says 32% don’t negotiate because they’re too worried about losing the job offer.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: I know, Tim, like we can attest to this because with our growth at YFP, we’ve definitely done some human resourcing, to use that as a verb, and hiring and things like that of late. And I’ve got to say that the — I think that some of this can be unfounded just because there’s just so much blood, sweat and tears that goes into finding the right people to kind of surround yourself with and bring into an organization that to me, a little bit of back-and-forth is not going to ultimately lose the job. So typically most jobs, there’s — obviously there’s an application process, there’s interviews, there’s second interviews, there’s maybe on-site visits, there’s kind of looking at all the candidates and then extending offers. If you get to that offer stage, you’re pretty — they’ve identified as you’re the person that they want. So sometimes a little bit of back-and-forth is not going to derail any such deal. So it’s really, really important to understand that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and as the employer, I mean, we’ve all heard about the cost statistics around retention. So as an employer, when I find that person, I want to retain them. That’s my goal, right? I want to find good talent, I want to retain good talent. So I certainly don’t want somebody being resentful about the work that they’re doing, the pay that they have, and so I think if we can work some of that out before beginning, come to an agreement, it’s a good fit for us, good fit for them, I think it’s also going to help the benefit of hopefully the long-term relationship of that engagement. So it’s one thing to say we should be doing it. It’s another thing to say, well how do we actually do this? What are some tips and tricks for negotiation? So I thought it would be helpful if we could walk through some of the stages of negotiation. And through those stages, we can talk, as well as beyond that, what are some actual strategies to negotiation. Again, another shoutout to “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss. I think he does an awesome job of teaching these strategies in a way that really helps them come alive and are memorable.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: So Tim, let’s talk about the first stage, the interview stage, and what are some strategies that those listening can take when it comes to negotiation in this stage.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so when I present these concepts to a client, I kind of said that the four stages of negotiation are fairly vanilla, you know? And the first one is that interview. So when you get that interview, what I say is typically you want to talk less, listen more and learn more. Typically, the person that is talking the most is not in control of the conversation. The one that’s listening and asking good questions is in control. And I kind of think back to some of our recent hires, and you know, the people that we identified as like top candidates, I’m like, man, their interviews went really well. And when I actually think back and slow down, it’s really — I think that they went really well because it’s really that person asking good questions and then me just talking. And that’s like the perception. So in that case, the candidate was asking us good questions and we’re like, yeah, this was a great interview because I like to hear myself talk or I just get really excited about what we’re doing at YFP. So I think if you can really focus on your counterpart, focus on the organization, whether it’s the hospital or whatever it is and learn and then really pivot to the value that you bring, I think that’s going to be most important. So you know, understanding what some of their pain points are, whether it’s retention or maybe some type of care issue or whatever that may be, you can kind of use that to your advantage as you’re kind of going through the different stages of negotiation. But the more that the other person talks, the better. I would say in the interview stage, one of the things that often comes up that can come up fairly soon is the question about salary. And you know, sometimes that is — it’s kind of like a time savings. So it’s a “Hey, Tim, what are you looking for in salary?” If you throw out a number that’s way too high, I’m not even going to waste my time. And what I tell clients is like you typically, you want to — and we’ll talk about anchoring. You really want to avoid throwing a number out for a variety of reasons. So one of the deflections you can use is, “Hey, I appreciate the question, but I’m really trying to figure out if I’d be a good fit for your organization. Let’s talk about salary when the time comes.” Or the other piece of it is it’s just you’re not in the business of offering yourself a job. And what I mean by that it’s their job to basically provide an offer. So, “Hey, my current employer doesn’t really allow me to kind of reveal that kind of information. What did you have in mind?” Or, “We know that pharmacy is a small business, and I’m sure your budget is reasonable. What did you have in mind?”

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Tim Baker: So at the end of the day, it’s their job to extend the offer, not you to kind of negotiate against yourself, which can happen. You know? I had — we signed on a client here at YFP Planning yesterday, and we were talking about negotiation. I think it had to do with a tax issue. And you know, he basically said this is what he was looking for and when he got into the organization, I think he saw the number that was budgeted for it, and it was a lot more. So again, if you can deflect that — and I tell a story, when I first got out of the Army, I kind of knew this. But when I first got out of the Army, I was interviewing for jobs. I was in an interview, and I deflected and I think the guy asked me again, and I deflected. I think he asked me for like — maybe he asked me four times, and I just wound up giving him a range that was like obnoxious, $100,000-200,000 or something like that. But to me, that — and the interview didn’t go well after that, but to me, it was more about clearing the slate instead of actually learning about me and seeing if I was a good fit. So you never want to lie if they ask about your current salary, you never want to lie. But you definitely want to deflect and move to things like OK, can I potentially be a good fit for your organization and then go from there.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think deflection takes practice, right?

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: I don’t think that comes natural to many of us.

Tim Baker: Absolutely. Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: This reminds me, so talk less, listen more for any Hamilton folks we have out there, which is playing 24/7 in my house these days, the soundtrack. I’m not going to sing right now, but talk less, smile more, don’t let them know what you’re against or what you’re for. So I think that’s a good connection there to the interview stage. So next hopefully comes good news, company wants to hire you, makes an offer. So Tim, talk us through this stage. What should we be remembering when we actually have an offer on the table?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think you definitely want to be appreciative and thankful. Again, when a company gets to a point where they’re an extending you an offer, that’s huge. I remember when I got, again, my first offer out of the Army — because again, you didn’t really have a choice when you’re in the Army. Well, I guess you do have a choice, but they’re not like, “Here’s a written offer for your employment in this platoon somewhere in Iraq.” But I remember getting the first offer. I’m like, man, this is awesome. Shows your salary and the benefits and things like that, so you want to be appreciable and thankful — appreciative and thankful. You don’t want to be — you want to be excited but not too overexcited. So you don’t want to appear to be desperate. What I tell clients, I think the biggest piece here is make sure you get it in writing. And I have a story that I tell because if it’s not in writing, and what I essentially said is it didn’t happen. So again, using some personal experience here, first job out of the Army, I had negotiated basically an extra week of vacation because I didn’t want to take a step back in that regard. And I got the offer, and the extra week wasn’t there. So I talked to my future boss about it, and he said, “You know what, I don’t want to go back to headquarters and ruffle some feathers, so why don’t we just take care of that on site here?” And this was the job I had in Columbus, Ohio. And I said, “Yeah, OK, I don’t really want to ruffle feathers either.” The problem with that was when he got replaced, when he was terminated eight months later, that currency burned up fairly quickly. So I didn’t have that extra week of vacation. So if it’s not written down, it never happened. So you want to make sure that you get it in writing and really go over that written offer extensively. So some employers, they’ll extend an offer, and they want a decision right away. I would walk away from that. To me, a job change or something of that magnitude, I think it warrants a 24-, if not a minimum 48-hour timeframe for you to kind of mull it over. And this is typically where I come in and help clients because they’ll say, “Hey, Tim, I got this offer. What do you think?” And we go through it and we look at benefits and we look at the total compensation package and things like that. But you want to ask for a time, some time to review everything. And then definitely adhere to the agreed-upon deadline to basically provide an answer or a counteroffer or whatever the next step is for you.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think too, the advice to get it in writing helps buy you time, you know? I think you ask for it anyways. And I think the way you approach this conversation, you’re setting up the counteroffer, right? So the tone that you’re using, it’s not about being arrogant here, it’s not about acting like you’re not excited at all. I think you can strike that balance between you’re appreciative, you’re thankful, you’re continuing to assess if it’s a good fit for you and the organization, you want some time, you want it in writing, and you’re beginning to set the stage. And I think human behavior, right, says if something is either on the table or pulled away slightly, the other party wants it a little bit more, right?

Tim Baker: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: So if I’m the employer and I really want someone and I’m all excited about the offer and I’m hoping they’re going to say yes and they say, “Hey, I’m really thankful for the offer. I’m excited about what you guys are doing. I need some time to think about x, y and z,” or “I’m really thinking through x, y or z,” like all of a sudden, that makes me want them more. You know?

Tim Baker: Sure.

Tim Ulbrich: So I think there’s value in setting up what is that counteroffer. So talk to us about the counteroffer, Tim. Break it down and some strategies to think about in this portion.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so you know, the counteroffer is I would say — the majority of the time, you should counter in some way. I think you’re expected to make a counter. And again, we kind of back that up with some stats. But you also, you need to know when not to kind of continue to go back to the negotiating table or when you’re asking or overasking. So I think research is going to be a good part of that. And what I tell clients is like, I can give them a very non-scientific — I’ve worked with so many pharmacists that I can kind of say, eh, that sounds low for this community pharmacy industry, or whatever, hospital, in this area. So your network, which could be someone like me, it could be colleagues, but it could also be things like Glass Door, Indeed, Salary.com. So you want to make sure that your offer, your counteroffer is backed up in some type of fact. And really, knowing how to maximize your leverage. So if you are — if you do receive more than one substantial offer from multiple employers, negotiating may be appropriate if the two positions are comparable. Or if you have tangible evidence that the salary is too low, you have a strong position to negotiate. So I had a client that knew that newly hired pharmacists were being paid more than she was, and she had the evidence to show that and basically they went back and did a nice adjustment. But again, I think as you go through — the way that we kind of do this with clients is we kind of go through the entire letter and the benefits. And I basically just highlight things and have questions about match or vacation time or salary, things like that. And then we start constructing it from there. So if you look at, again, the thing where most people will start is salary is you really want to give — when you counter, you really want to give a salary range rather than like a number. So what I say is, if you say, “Hey, Tim, I really want to make $100,000.” I kind of said it’s almost like the Big Bad Wolf that blows the house down. Like all of those zeros, there’s no substance to that. But if you said, “Hey, I really want to make $105,985,” the Journal of the Experimental Social Psychology says that using a precise number instead of a rounded number gives it a more potent anchor.

Tim Ulbrich: You’ve done your homework, right?

Tim Baker: Yeah. You know what you’re worth, you know what the position’s worth, it’s giving the appearance of research. So I kind of like — it’s kind of like the Zach Galfinakis meme that has all of the equations that are floating, it’s kind of like that. But the $100,000, you can just blow that house over. So and I think — so once you figure out that number, then you kind of want to range it. So they say if you give a range of a salary, then it opens up room for discussion and it shows the employer that you have flexibility. And it gives you some cushion in case you think that you’re asking for a little bit too high. So that’s going to be really, really important is to provide kind of precise numbers in a range. And oh, by the way, I want to be paid at the upper echelon of that.

Tim Ulbrich: So real quick on that, you mentioned before the concept of anchoring, and I want to spend some time here as you’re talking about a range. So dig into that further, what that means in terms of if I’m given a range, how does anchoring fit into that?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so we kind of talk about this more when we kind of talk some of the tools and the behavior of negotiation. But the range — so when we talk about like anchoring, so anchoring is actually — it’s a bias. So anchoring bias describes the common tendency to give too much weight to the first number. So again, if I can invite the listener to imagine an equation, and the equation is 5x4x3x2x1. And that’s in your mind’s eye. And then you clear the slate, and now you imagine this equation: 1x2x3x4x5. Now, if I show the average person and I just flash that number up, the first number — the first equation that starts with 5 and the second equation that starts with 1, we know that those things equal the same thing. But in the first equation, we see the 5 first, so it creates this anchor, creates this belief in us that that number is actually higher.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, bigger, yeah.

Tim Baker: So the idea of anchoring is typically that that number that we see really is a — has a major influence, that first number is a major influence over where the negotiation goes. So you can kind of get into the whole idea of factoring your knowledge of the zone of possible agreement, which is often called ZOPA. So that’s the range of options that should be acceptable for both sides, and then kind of assessing your side of that and then your other party’s anchor in that. So there’s lots of things that kind of go into anchoring, but we did this recently with a client where I think they were offered somewhere in like the $110,000-112,000 area. And she’s like, I really want to get paid closer to like $117,000-118,000. So we basically in the counteroffer, we said, “Hey, thanks for the offer.” And we did something called an accusation, which we can talk about in a second. But “Thanks for the counteroffer, but I’m really looking to make between” — you know, I think we said something like $116,598 to all the way up into the $120,000s. And they actually brought her up to I think she was at $117,000 and change. So it actually brought her up closer to that $118,000. So using that range and kind of that range as a good anchoring position to help the negotiation.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, love it.

Tim Baker: There’s lots of different things that kind of go into anchoring in terms of extreme anchoring and a lot of that stuff that they talk about in the book, but again, that kind of goes back to that first number being thrown out there can be really, really integral. And again, when you couple that on top of hey, it’s their job to make you an offer, not the other way around, you have to really learn how to deflect that and know how to position yourself in those negotiations. But that’s really the counteroffer. And what I would say to kind of just wrap up the counteroffer is embrace the silence.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: So Tim, there was silence there, and I’m like, I want to fill the void. And I do this with clients when we talk about mirroring and things like that. Like people are uncomfortable with silence. And what he talks about in the book, which I would 100% — this is really kind of a tip of the cap to Chris Voss and his book, which I love, I read probably at least once a year, where he talks about embracing the silence. We as people are conditioned to fill silences. So he talks about sometimes people will negotiate against themselves. If you just sit there and you say, “Uh huh. That’s interesting.” And then in the counter, just be pleasantly persistent on the non-salary terms, which can be both subjective and objective in terms of what you’re looking for in that position.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I want to make sure we don’t lose that. We’re talking a lot about salary, but again, as we mentioned at the beginning, really try to not only understand but fit what’s the value of those non-salary terms. So this could be everything from paid time off to obviously other benefits, whether that be health or retirement. This of course could be culture of the organization, whether it’s that specific site, the broader organization, opportunities for advancement.

Tim Baker: Mentorship. Yep. Mentorship.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes, yes.

Tim Baker: Yep, all of that.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think what you hear from folks — I know I’ve felt in my own personal career, with each year that goes on, I value salary, but salary means less and those other things mean more. And so as you’re looking at let’s just say two offers, as one example, let’s say they’re $5,000 apart. I’m not saying you give on salary, but how do you factor in these other variables.

Tim Baker: Yeah. Well, and I think too — and this is kind of next level with this, and I’ll give you some examples to cite it. I think another thing to potentially do when you are countering and when you’re shifting to some of maybe the non-salary stuff is really took a hard look at your potential employer or even your current employer if you’re an incumbent and you’re being reviewed and you’re just advocating for a better compensation, is look at the company’s mission and values. So the example I give is like when Shay and I got pregnant with Liam, she didn’t have a maternity leave benefit. And when she was being reviewed, we kind of invoked the company — and I think it’s like work-life balance and things like that — and we’re like, “Well, how can you say that and not back that up?” And again, we did it tactfully. Because you’re almost like negotiating against yourself, right? So when I present this to clients, the Spiderman meme where two Spidermans are pointing at each other, and she was able to negotiate a better, a maternity — and we look at us, and I give these, one of our values is encouraging growth and development. So if an employee says, hey, and they make a case that I really want to do this, it’s almost like we’re negotiating against ourselves. So I think if you can — one, I think it shows again the research and that you’re really interested and plugged into what the organization is doing — but then I think you’re leveraging the company against itself in some ways because you’re almost negotiating against well, yeah, we put these on the wall as something that we believe in. But we’re not going to support it or you know. Or at the very least, it plants a seed. And that’s what I say is sometimes with clients, we do strike out. It is hard to move the needle sometimes, but at least one, we’ve got an iteration under our belts where we are negotiation, and two, we’ve planted a seed with that employer — assuming that they took the job anyway — that says OK, these are things that are kind of important to me that we’re going to talk about again and things like that. So I think that’s huge.

Tim Ulbrich: Good stuff. So let’s talk about some tools that we can use for negotiation. And again, many of these are covered in more detail in the book and other resources, which we’ll link to in the show notes. I just want to hit on a few of these. Let’s talk about mirroring, accusation audits, and the importance of getting a “That’s right” while you’re in these conversations. And we’ll leave our listeners to dig deeper in some of the other areas. So talk to us about mirroring. What is it? And kind of give us the example and strategies of mirroring.

Tim Baker: Yeah, and I would actually — Tim, what I would do is I would actually back up because I think probably one of the most important tools that are there I think is the calibrated question. So that’s one of the first things that he talks — and the reason, so what is a calibrated question? So a calibrated question is a question with really no fixed answer that gives the illusion of control. So the answer, however, is kind of constrained by that question. And you, the person that’s asking the question, has control of the conversation. So I give the example, when we moved into our house after we renovated it — so brand new house. I walk into my daughter’s room, I think she was 4 at the time, and she’s coloring on the wall in red crayons. And I’m from Jersey, so I say “crown” not “crayon.” And I look at her, and I say, “Olivia, why are you doing that?” And she sees how upset I am and mad and she just starts crying. And there’s no negotiation from there.

Tim Ulbrich: Negotiation over.

Tim Baker: There’s no exchange of information. So in an alternate reality, in an alternate reality, what I should have done is said, “Olivia, what caused you to do that?” So you’re basically blasting — instead of why — why is very accusatory — you’re like, the how and the what questions are good. So and of course she would say, “Well, Daddy, I ran out of paper, so the wall is the next best thing.” So the use of — and having these calibrated questions in your back pocket, I think again buys you some time and really I think frames the conversation with your counterpart well. So using words like “how” and “what” and avoiding things like “why,” “when,” “who.” So, “What about this works, doesn’t work for you?” “How can we make this better for us?” “How do you want to proceed?” “How can we solve this problem?” “What’s the biggest challenge you face?” These are all — “How does this look to you?” — these are all calibrated questions that again, as you’re kind of going back and forth, you can kind of lean on. So have good how and what questions. To kind of answer the question about mirroring, as you’re asking these questions, you’re mirroring your counterpart. So what mirroring, the scientific term is called isopraxism. But he defines and says “the real-life Jedi mind trick.” This causes vomiting of information is what he says. So you know, these are not the droids you’re looking for. So what you essentially is you repeat back the last 1-3 words or the critical words of your counterpart’s sentence, your counterpart’s sentence. So this is me mirroring myself. Yeah, well you want to repeat back because you want them to reveal more information. And you want to build rapport and have that curiosity of kind of what is the other person thinking so you can, again, come to an agreement. Come to an agreement? Yeah. So at the end of the day, the purpose — so this is mirroring. So I’ll show you a funny story. I practice this on my wife sometimes, who does not have a problem speaking. But sometimes the counterpart is —

Tim Ulbrich: She’s listening, by the way.

Tim Baker: Yeah, exactly. So I’ll probably be in trouble. But so I basically just for our conversation, just mirror back exactly what she’s saying. And you can do this physically. You can cross your legs or your arms or whatever that looks like. But what he talks about more is with words. And you know, I’ll basically just mirror back my wife, and she — at the end of the conversation, she’ll say something like, “Man, I feel like you really listened to me.” And I laugh about that because I’m just really repeating back. But if you think about it, I did. Because for you to be able to do that, you really do have to listen. So mirroring, again, if you’re just repeating back, you really start to uncover more of what your counterpart is thinking because often, like what comes out of our mouth the first or even second time is just smoke. So really uncovering that. One of the things he talks about is labeling where this is kind of the — it’s described as the method of validating one’s emotion by acknowledging it. So, “It seems like you’re really concerned about patient care. It seems like you’re really concerned about the organization’s retention of talent. So what you’re doing is that you’re using neutral statements that don’t involve the use of “I” or “we.” So it’s not necessarily accusatory. And then you are — same with the mirror. You really want to not step on your mirror. You want to not stop on your label and really invite the other person to say, “Yeah, I’m just really frustrated by this or that.” So labeling is really important to basically defuse the power, the negative emotion, and really allow you to remain neutral and kind of find out more about that. So that’s super important.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think with both of those, Tim, as you were talking, it connects well back to what we mentioned earlier of talk less, listen more.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Like you’re really getting more information out, right, from a situation that can be guarded, you know, people are trying to be guarded. And I think more information could lead hopefully to a more fruitful negotiation. What about the accusation audit?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so the accusation audit, it’s one of my favorites, kind of similar with calibrated questions. I typically will tell clients, I’m like, “Hey, if you don’t learn anything from this, I would say have some calibrated questions in your back pocket and have a good accusation audit at the ready.” And we typically will use the accusation audit to kind of frame up a counteroffer. So it kind — so before I give you the example, the accusation audit is a technique that’s used to identify and label probably like the worst thing that your counterpart could say about it. So this is all the head trash that’s going on of why I don’t want to negotiate. It’s like, ah, they’re going to think that I’m overasking or I’m greedy, all those things that you’re thinking. So you’re really just pointing to the elephant in the room and you’re just trying to take this thing out and really let the air out of the room where a lot of people just get so nervous about this. So a good accusation audit is, “Hey, Tim, I really appreciate the offer of $100,000 to work with your organization. You’re probably going to think that I’m the greediest person on Planet Earth, but I was really looking for this to that.”

Tim Ulbrich: That’s a great line. Great line.

Tim Baker: Or, “You’re probably thinking that I’m asking way too much,” or, “You’re probably thinking that I’m way underqualified for this position, but here’s what I’m thinking.”

Tim Ulbrich: “No. No, no, no, Tim.”

Tim Baker: Right. So when someone says that to me, I’m like, “No. I don’t think that.” And what often happens — and again, clients have told me this — what often happens is that the person, the counterpart that they’re working with, like they’re recruited as — one person said, one client was like, “Oh, we’re going to find you more money. We’re going to figure it out.” So they like — so when someone says that to you, just think about how you would feel. “Oh, I don’t think that at all.” And then it just kind of lets the air out of the room. So you basically preface your counteroffer with like the worst thing they could say about you, and then they typically say, “That’s not true at all.”

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: So I love the accusation audit. So simple, it’s kind of easy to remember. And I think it just lays I think the groundwork for just great conversation and hopefully a resolution.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. And then let’s wrap up with the goal of getting to a “That’s right.” I remember when I was listening to an interview with Chris Voss, this was a part that I heard and I thought, wow, that’s so powerful. If you can get — in the midst of this negotiation, if we can get to a “Yeah, that’s right,” the impact that could have on the impact.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so he kind of talks about it like kind of putting all of these different tools together. So it’s mirroring and labeling and kind of using I think what he calls minimal encouragement, “Uh huh,” “I see,” kind of paraphrasing what you hear from your counterpart. And then really wait for — it’s like, “Hey, did I get that right? Am I tracking?” And what you’re really looking for is a “That’s right.” He said that’s even better than a “Yes.” So one of the examples I give is when I speak with prospective clients, we’re talking about my student loans and my investment portfolio and I’m doing real budgeting, and I got a sold a life insurance policy that I think isn’t great for me. And so we go through all of these different parts of the financial plan. And I’m basically summarizing back what they’re saying. And I say, you know, at the end of it — so I’m summarizing 30 minutes of conversation. And I’m saying, “Did I get that right?” And they’re like, “Yeah, that’s right. You’re a great listener,” which I have to record for my wife sometimes because she doesn’t agree with me. So that’s what you’re looking for is “Yeah, that’s right.” This person has heard, message sent, heard, understand me. He says if you get a “You’re right,” so sometimes, again, I keep talking about my wife, I’m like, “Hey, we have to do a better job of saving for retirement,” and she’s like, “You’re right.” That’s really code for “Shut up and go away.” So it’s a “That’s right” really what we’re looking for.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome.

Tim Baker: So that’s very powerful.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great stuff. And really, just a great overall summary of some tips within the negotiation process, the steps of the negotiation process, how it fits into the financial plan. We hope folks walk away with that and just a good reminder of our comprehensive financial planning services that we do at YFP Planning. This is a great example of when we say “comprehensive,” we mean it. So it’s not just investments, it’s not just student loans. It’s really every part of the financial plan. Anything that has a dollar sign on it, we want our clients to be in conversation and working with our financial planners to make sure we’re optimizing that and looking at all parts of one’s financial plan. And here, negotiation is a good example of that. So we’ve referenced lots of resources, main one we talked about here today was “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss. We will link to that in our show notes. And as a reminder to access the show notes, you can go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/podcast, find this week’s episode, click on that and you’ll be able to access a transcription of the episode as well as the show notes and the resources. And don’t forget to join our Facebook group, the Your Financial Pharmacist Facebook group, over 6,000 members strong, pharmacy professionals all across the country committed to helping one another on their own path and walk towards financial freedom. And last but not least, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the podcast, please leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show each and every week. Have a great rest of your day.

[END]

Current Student Loan Refinance Offers

Advertising Disclosure

Note: Referral fees from affiliate links in this table are sent to the non-profit YFP Gives. Read the full advertising disclosure here.	Bonus	Starting Rates	About	YFP Gives accepts advertising compensation from companies that appear on this site, which impacts the location and order in which brands (and/or their products) are presented, and also impacts the score that is assigned to it. Company lists on this page DO NOT imply endorsement. We do not feature all providers on the market.
	$800* Loans* ≥150K = $800 100-149K = $450 <100K = $350	Variable: 5.28%+ APR (with autopay)* Fixed: 5.28%+ APR (with autopay)* *All bonus payments are by gift card. See terms	The "Kayak" of student loan refinancing, Credible displays personalized prequalified rates from multiple lenders	Check Rate
	$750* Loans ≥150K = $750* ≥50K-150k = $300	Fixed: 5.49%+ APR (with autopay)	A marketplace that compares multiple lenders that are credit unions and local banks	Check Rate
	$500* Loans ≥50K = $500	Variable: 4.99%+ (with autopay)* Fixed: 4.96%+ (with autopay)** Read rates and terms at SplashFinancial.com	Splash is a marketplace with loans available from an exclusive network of credit unions and banks as well as U-Fi, Laurenl Road, and PenFed	Check Rate

Recent Posts

[pt_view id=”f651872qnv”]

YFP 338: Stepping Into Your Inner Radiance in 2024 with Dr. Christina Fontana

Posted on December 14, 2023December 13, 2023 by YFP Media

Dr. Christina Fontana, creator of The Pharmacist Coach, shares her journey from pharmacy to entrepreneurship, healing from trauma, and setting goals.

Episode Summary

In this episode of the YFP Podcast, we welcome Dr. Christina Fontana, PharmD, the visionary creator of The Pharmacist Coach. Dr. Fontana shares her inspiring journey from pharmacy to entrepreneurship, revealing the impact of her early experiences and the resilience that fueled her pursuit of a purpose-driven path. From navigating personal challenges like eating disorders and anxiety to healing from childhood trauma, Dr. Fontana discusses her commitment to inner work and counseling as essential components of her transformative process. The episode also explores the intertwined nature of personal growth and business development, with insights into Dr. Fontana’s methodology of “structured flexibility.” The discussion concludes with a focus on mindset and goal-setting strategies for pharmacists, encouraging alignment with one’s true desires and an embodiment of authenticity. Tune in for a captivating exploration of career empowerment, resilience, and setting ambitious goals for the year ahead.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Christina Fontana, AKA The Pharmacist Coach, is a pharmacist, holistic healer, rapid transformation business coach, speaker, and 5-time author. She helps spiritually-driven women to ‘Reignite Your Light’ and shine in your brilliance, confidence, and true essence.

She started her entrepreneurial journey 11 years ago being disempowered, homelessness, broke, with eating disorders, PTSD, and anxiety and has since transformed, turning her pain into purpose, empowering women all over the world to step into more purpose, power, and prosperity.

Over the last 11 years, Dr. Christina has been providing uplifting, transformational content through her Youtube videos, books, courses, programs, and Conferences. Her mission is to empower more healers and business owners unlock their innate gifts to create a domino effect of healing on the world.

Key Points From the Episode

Career, trauma, and entrepreneurship with Dr. Christina Fontana.
Career journey and goal setting in pharmacy. [1:53]
Eating disorders, perfectionism, and self-discovery in pharmacy school. [5:06]
Trauma, intuition, and decision-making. [11:19]
Healing from childhood trauma and inner work for personal growth. [16:00]
Personal growth and business development. [19:57]
Personal growth through entrepreneurship and parenting. [28:19]
Mindset and goal setting for pharmacists. [32:20]
Setting goals and being flexible in entrepreneurship. [39:38]

Episode Highlights

“All of these tools that I’ve learned throughout the years, I now help people with. And someone I was I was working at a retreat one time, and somebody came up to me, they’re like, You should call it like rapid transformation, because people shift so quickly, because I, because I’m so intuitive. And I’ve developed that muscle so much within myself, I can look at someone and say, okay, and coach them and ask them these questions that are going to draw out of them.” – Dr. Christina Fontana [17:44]

“I grew up in a very suppressive environment, and it doesn’t allow for you to tap into who you really are, the creativity, the gifts and that’s why I bring this work into helping entrepreneurs because if you’re suppressed, you’re not going to show up fully self expressed when you give a talk, when you go to put your message out there this work is so much of you know, the inner work, but also the practical strategy of how do I bring all of who I am to the table when I am speaking, so that I show up with power, conviction. And that’s how you influence people because then they know you care, they see the passion that you have. And that’s how you start to create a domino effect of healing in the world. Which is really why I believe I’m here is at the root cause it’s to be a beacon of light for other people and that’s why I’m so vulnerable in my story.” – Dr. Christina Fontana [18:45]

“Translate your gifts into gold.” -Dr. Christina Fontana [21:38]

“But when you when you embody that version of yourself, like tapping into the energy of this is what I want this is who would I have to be to achieve that goal? Because there’s usually an evolution or a next version of yourself, right? Maybe a higher version of yourself? What would that be? And feeling into that frequency?” -Dr. Christina Fontana 35:28

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I welcome Dr. Christina Fontana, creator of The Pharmacist Coach. We talk about her career journey in a pharmacy, her trauma experience growing up in an abusive household and how that shaped who she is today, and her entrepreneurial journey focused on empowering others to transform their lives reveal their inner radiance and step into more energy, confidence and power. We then wrap up the show by discussing strategies for getting in the right mindset to set big goals for 2024. Let’s hear a brief message from YFP team member Justin Woods, and then we’ll jump into my interview with Dr. Christina Fontana.

AD SPOT 00:45

This is Justin Woods from the YFP team with a quick message before the show. If you listen to the YFP Podcast, you may learn something every now and then, either from Tim Ulbrich, Tim Baker, or one of our guests. A lot of people listen to the show, but they may not execute or implement the things they learned. As pharmacists, we know the impact of non-adherence on patient outcomes and their overall well being. As a pharmacist, myself and part of the YFP team. I talk with pharmacists every day who are confused about how to implement financial knowledge. Pharmacists share with me that they’re treading water financially, maybe took a DIY approach, reached a plateau and are confused about what to do next. Or those who worked for decades can see the light at the end of the tunnel, and feel uncertain about how the next chapter will unfold. If that sounds like you, one, it is not uncommon to feel that way. And two, does it make sense for us to have a conversation to see if YFP Planning can help you visit YFPplanning.com or follow the link in the Show Notes to find a time that works for your schedule.

Tim Ulbrich 01:50

Christina, welcome to the show.

Dr. Christina Fontana 01:53

Thank you so much. We’re here on a Monday morning and it’s raining. So, bring in the sunshine.

Tim Ulbrich 01:58

It’s a great way to start a Monday, especially when as you mentioned it’s cloudy, it’s rainy, it’s cold, but you very much have the holiday spirit wearing your your polar bear gear. I love that. And I know the energy you’re going to bring to the show is going to light lighten the mood that has been set by the outside weather. So I’m really looking forward to this opportunity to interview you. We’re going to unpack your career journey, we’ll talk about your entrepreneurial journey. And then I’m gonna pick your brain about advice you would have for our community listening about how you think about goal setting, as well as how you coach others on goal setting as we get ready to turn the page onto 2024. So let’s start with your career journey in pharmacy. What led you into the profession? Where did you go to pharmacy school? And what was some of the work that you did upon graduation?

Dr. Christina Fontana 02:45

Yeah, so my dad was a pharmacist. I’m from a family full of pharmacists. So my uncle, my aunt, my sister, my dad, we all went to St. John’s University and I grew up working in my dad’s store back from when I was like three years old, sweeping the floors, helping people find, you know, cards for their granddaughter, working the register. Really, I learned my people skills, my dad would always say, Alright, go talk to that person. Go help that person, go sweep the floor. And I think that those early experiences really helped me to kind of plant those seeds of number one customer service. My dad was, he knew everybody’s name. He knew like, what every customer, what their kids’ names were, what sports they were in. And I just would watch him in awe and be like, Wow, he’s just so…how do you know all this and then he knew all the drugs too in the back. You’re amazing. So I was both in awe of my father, but also extremely terrified of him because he was a strong Italian dad, very strict, very controlling. And I actually grew up and I’m very open about this with a lot of abuse. So physical and mental, emotional. I loved my dad and I still do to this day. And I see now that that was an experience that I went through to strengthen my character to be who I am today. And I’ve gone through a lot of healing through that and but like kind of back to what you know, back at the pharmacy, so there was all of that going on. So like I loved him, I admired him. He taught me so much and he was so charismatic, intelligent. And so I absorbed all of that I was like a sponge, you know, from a very early age. And I knew in those interactions with people that were at the counter. That’s really where I like loved talking to people and hearing about their stories or what they were doing for the day. I grew to love people. And I just knew in my heart like I felt this, this rush in my body whenever someone was like, “Oh my God, you really helped me!” I was like, This is my purpose and so from probably around 13-14 years old, I knew that I wanted to help people. And so in my mind, I was like, oh, pharmacy. So the day that I got into pharmacy school, I feel like my whole world opened up, I was so excited. It was like this whole new adventure. And at the same time, there was this internal struggle that was happening within me. So I had an eating disorder in high school where, you know, I was anorexic. Put a lot of pressure on myself. Highly perfectionistic. Does this sound familiar, pharmacists, right? And so my trauma showed up in my body as an eating disorder high, you know, high levels of anxiety. I was a high performer, you know, like, I did kick line dance, all these different things, all throughout my childhood. Because that was what I thought I had to be in order to be loved by and accepted by my family. And so I went through pharmacy school, my head was down, you know, I, I actually developed a different eating disorder at that time. So it was night eating syndrome. That’s a whole other story. But essentially, what I learned was that my going through my healing journey, my nervous system was so overloaded from all of that trauma, the high performing, trying to be perfect, all of those things, that eventually had to come out somewhere because I suppressed my emotions. And you and I could talk about this for hours. But fast forward to kind of as I was going through pharmacy school, I was kind of struggling internally with all of this, you know, my eating disorder, anxiety, it just got compounded because it’s so much pressure to be in pharmacy school to make sure that you’re, you know, making the most out of your social time and, you know, the commute and all of the other things that come with being, you know, in pharmacy school, that pressure. So eventually, I got to the end of my career, or my, my time at St. John’s. And I started to look at all of these different opportunities. And I was really excited about pursuing a residency. And so I, I told my, my family, and I knew they weren’t going to be happy about it, because again, my dad owned this pharmacy and groomed me and, you know, helped me for years, and I just said, I’m like, I want to do this other path. And when I said that, he was not happy, because again, I was a people pleaser, I did whatever my parents said. I was a good girl, all of that. And so what I was, what he was saying back to me was like, you know, how could you do this to us? Like, you’re betraying us, you know, I helped you blah, blah, blah. And I didn’t care. For the first time in my life, I just felt it in my gut. And I think it was the dynamic to have probably somewhat of a toxic environment that I was already in, in that pharmacy setting. Combined with this drive that I had in my in this, again, I felt that feeling in my heart, like this is what I’m supposed to be doing. And so I always say to people, you know, I know, you have to use logic, of course, but also using your intuition like what feels aligned and right to me, that was probably the first time in my life that I actually let that voice be louder than the fear of what are they going to say I have to be perfect all that. So I did, I wound up pursuing the residency and living in that in my parents house with walking on eggshells and feeling like I couldn’t really, like tell them what was happening because I had to go to mid-year and I had to like, develop a CV for the first time and business cards and all of that. And I actually didn’t get any of my top five choices, because you have to pick five residencies that you want to match with. And I was like, devastated. And I didn’t know what to do. So I was talking to one of my professors at St. John’s one day, and she’s like, “oh, like, why don’t you try through the scramble. There’s a King’s Pharmacy in Brooklyn that I think I saw it didn’t match.” So I was like, let’s see if this goes. I went and interviewed and I got the call that I got this residency. But that was the beginning of the crumble of my life because that was when I got kicked out of my house. I my parents pretty much disowned me and you know, all of my stuff was thrown out onto the lawn- hangers, clothes, you know, everything that was my life, from my childhood room, where I was still living at home with them was literally purged onto the lawn. So all my neighbors were probably like, what is happening right now? So, I literally had to pick up the pieces of my life and start fresh like that was my rock bottom. At that time, I was taking anxiety medication. My life was so unworkable, because I wasn’t really speaking my truth. And all of these patterns that people pleasing, the perfectionism, the unworthiness that I had, it all kind of culminated into this moment where I was like, I’m choosing this, I’m choosing this new path. I don’t care how scary it is. And I remember looking up at the sky, and I just was like, it’s gonna be okay. I just had this feeling in my heart that even though my life was a mess, physically, everything was all over the lawn. And, you know, I couldn’t, I wasn’t even allowed back in the house. And I got fired from my dad’s pharmacy that day. So that was like one thing after the other. And by the way, it was like April of right when I was about to graduate pharmacy school. And so I was about to start a residency, I had two months left of pharmacy school, I still had to take my board exams. I had no job, I had not much money in a bank account, and I was living out of my car. And in that moment, like I said, I knew I was like, I can do this. I just had, I don’t know if it was God, if it was a strength, something within me, I just knew that I had made the right decision. And there had been so much bullying and abuse, and I was like, I’m done with this. So anyway, fast forward. And tell me when…

Tim Ulbrich 11:19

Yeah, good. I’ve got so many questions, but this is good. Finish your journey here.

Dr. Christina Fontana 11:23

Yep. So So there’s so much more, you know, that was the beginning of my entrepreneurial journey really, was getting into that residency, because it really opened up my eyes to all of the different possibilities within pharmacy, and I, it was so stressful, I cried a lot, I had so much PTSD in my body now that I look back on it. But I don’t regret that decision of doing a residency because again, it opened up my eyes to like, I started teaching diabetes classes, I was going through Integrative Nutrition at the same time, and like healing my body of looking at the deeper root of disease and why people get sick. And so this journey led me to where I am now. And I don’t regret any single part of it, because it was so painful. But I turned that pain and alchemize did into why like the drive that I have now to help people.

Tim Ulbrich 12:20

Yeah, as you’re is your sharing, and I really do appreciate your vulnerability here as I think that many people listening, you know, maybe will resonate with very specific parts of that, right, whether it’s, you know, an abuse part of the journey, or, you know, an eating disorder or some other trauma. But, you know, I think there’s pieces and parts of all of us that can relate to some part of that story. And what’s coming up for me is, like, where does that generative drive come from? Right? So when you think about all that you’ve been through, when you think about, you know, obviously the questions around am I loved? And you know, then being abandoned. And when you talk about your residency journey to me, you know, when I, when I think about, okay, you went through the scramble and I’m sure in your father’s eyes now that was a kind of a dagger of like, okay, now you’re choosing an option as the scramble, right? It’s like the last resort instead of this pathway, you know, seeing you would take and so my question is, where does that generative drive come from? Where do you attribute, you know, you choosing to go down that path? Right? So you know, I think in many abuse trauma situations, obviously, I’m not a counselor in any way, shape, or form, but you tend to think that often you see people stuck in those situations, because, you know, it’s, it’s harder to see the path out of it. And that becomes a new defined normal. And here, obviously, you talked about hitting that rock bottom in terms of, you know, getting thrown out of the house, and, you know, you chose choosing to go down this path anyways. And I almost felt as you were sharing, almost like this tug down an undefined path. And I’m curious of like, what is that pull? Like, what is that talk? What do you attribute to? Is that your is that your faith? Is that your “I just have this intuition”? Like, where, where does that come from?

Dr. Christina Fontana 14:09

I remember sitting on my bed one day meditating, because I like I said, I had so much anxiety from living in this house where I knew like my parents hate pretty much hated me, that my brother, and like, I guess I laugh to kind of cope with it now because I’m just like, I think back to how crazy it was. So please, like if you’re listening to this, please. No, I’m not. I laugh at my own situation, I guess because I’m just like, it was so crazy. But um, I remember sitting and meditating at the time because I was just trying anything to cope with this anxiety. And I felt this and I heard this voice so clearly say, “You like you need to get out of here.” Like, this needs, you need to leave. And so I guess I feel like that was really the first time that I felt that intuitive presence of God. You know, like I grew up Catholic, I kind of had a little bit of connection. But it wasn’t like, my dad was not a pastor or like, I didn’t really have that strong influence. But in those quiet moments, when I was with myself, my intuition started to speak. Because, you know, there’s so many fear influences that we have even now, with the news, people and expectations, parents, etc. So when you quiet that voice, and you really tune in, I started asking myself, like, what do I really want. And it was very scary, but it was that was that same feeling that I had back at the pharmacy. It was just this, it came from within, and it was just this boost of energy that I knew. It was, it was like, without a shadow of a doubt, I need to do this. And it was just, I think, too, probably the pain, like think about when someone has to make a decision, the pain was so bad, that I felt like I had to move. So like if you’re, if you’re in a bad relationship or a bad situation, eventually you get whittled down enough that it’s like, I’m done. That like F-it moment. So.

Tim Ulbrich 16:12

And Christina, as you share, you know, you talked about several things like, you know, obviously, your your need for acceptance, and to be loved. You talked about your nervous system activation, you talked about, you know, your awareness of how emotions are being suppressed. You also talked about kind of the journey of not not condoning in any way, or you know, accepting any way the abuse, but understanding and having a perspective on that, as you now look back. Which all of those together, tell me you’ve been through a journey of inner work, of counseling, of i, if you wouldn’t mind, just sharing for a moment what that journey has looked like for you. Because I think for some that are listening that say, Oh, I’ve got a, you know, a part of my story, you know, that maybe I need to dig a little bit deeper, despite the pain, right, that can be there. And I just think the more that we can hear from others, and on some level, you know, normalize the work that needs to be done, you know, the healthier we can all be. So if you would mind sharing a little bit of, of your journey of processing some of the emotion and the pain that you went through?

Dr. Christina Fontana 17:12

Yeah, absolutely. It it’s still a work in progress. Like there are I’m doing specifically nervous system work right now. But I had started off with traditional therapists, and that only got me so far. When I started doing the subconscious work, and I had hypnosis sessions, my anxiety went from like an eight to a two. And I started to say, okay, like, this is part of the breadcrumb trail of how I want to be helping people. So now that’s what I do. All of these tools that I’ve learned throughout the years, I now help people with. And someone I was I was working at a retreat one time, and somebody came up to me, they’re like, You should call it like rapid transformation, because people shift so quickly, because I, because I’m so intuitive. And I’ve developed that muscle so much within myself, I can look at someone and say, okay, and coach them and ask them these questions that are going to draw out of them. What needs to be shifted, because it’s all internal. Right? It’s the, it’s the layers, I call it multi dimensional healing. It’s the nervous system that’s holding the cellular memory of the trauma, it’s the patterns that you’ve come to cope with that trauma, people pleasing, perfectionism, overthinking, that’s all a nervous system response. So it’s the nervous system, all these patterns. And then there’s typically core wounds that are there like unworthiness, shame. And so that needs to be digested in order to allow that flow of emotion because, you know, I grew up in a very suppressive environment, and it doesn’t allow for you to tap into who you really are, the creativity, the gifts and that’s why I bring this work into helping entrepreneurs because if you’re suppressed, you’re not going to show up fully self expressed when you give a talk, when you go to put your message out there this work is so much of you know, the inner work, but also the practical strategy of how do I bring all of who I am to the table when I am speaking, so that I show up with power conviction. And that’s how you influence people because then they know you care, they see the passion that you have. And that’s how you start to create a domino effect of healing in the world. Which is really why I believe I’m here is at the root cause it’s to be a beacon of light for other people and that’s why I’m so vulnerable in my story. I’m like there’s nothing look in the crevices in the closet. There’s nothing in my closet like I will show you my husband because I want people to to know that they’re not alone and I want them to know there are tools out there that can help them.

Tim Ulbrich 19:57

Yeah, I love how you described it as you know multi dimensional and the layers. You know, that’s been my own experience of just kind of slowly peeling back the onion and the layers. And I think as you do that. And I’m convinced it’s a lifelong journey. I don’t think the work ever ends.

Dr. Christina Fontana 20:12

Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich 20:13

But through that, you start to get a little bit closer, a little bit closer a little bit closer to who your authentic self is. Right. And that is that is the unique advantage of every one of us. There is one, Christina, there is one, Tim, you know, there’s one of whoever’s listening, and we’ve got an opportunity to really identify who is that? Who is that? And how can we help serve others. So with that in mind, let’s shift to talking more about your journey as an entrepreneur. And one of things you share on your website is that you, “Empower others to transform their lives, reveal their inner radiance and step into more energy, confidence and power.” So what what is the how behind that? Why? So how do you help people on that journey?

Dr. Christina Fontana 20:53

So it’s part of what we just talked about. So it’s that inner work. But it’s also the practical strategy of it. And now we’re going to talk about goal setting. So I’ll bring this up now. So structured flexibility, right. So like, if you think of a container, you need to have structure around something to hold the energy of it. So like, if I were to just say, I want to have a business, but there’s no structure or offer or clear place for somebody to land, then it’s kind of like having a leaky bucket. Yeah. So I look at, okay, let’s look at some of these patterns that you have that we can start shifting, as well as those practical strategies of how do we translate your gifts into gold. That’s one of my, like, my signature methodologies turn your gifts to gold, because again, I always show this this is like my new thing. I know that you everybody listening, I’ll describe what I’m holding up right now. So it is a diamond. And if you are following me on social media, you’ll see that I post about this, this is on my Instagram. This is who we are like I’m pregnant right now I’m 21 weeks pregnant, this child is going to come out pure, with all the gifts that it was born with. With it being brilliant, worthy, everything, its pristine. But then what happens is, over time, we learned that life isn’t safe, right in some way, whether it’s a trauma, or we get yelled at or punished, or whatever, whatever that might be. And little kids make meaning out of things. I’m bad. I’m unworthy, all of this. And so that’s what we’re carrying into our business. And people, it’s so unconscious, that that’s why we bring it to the conscious forefront and say, Hey, this is what’s showing up. So we can help you reveal more of that diamond, of the brilliance of who you came here to be. Because you’re most magnetic when you shine that light. And when you can help those people who are in your audience scrolling on Facebook, looking for the answers. That to me is true fulfillment. So the more that you can reveal that, and have these containers and by containers, I mean, like offers or the way that you tell your story in a way that’s compelling and draws people to you. That’s how you build a sustainable business. That’s, that’s my belief. Its just one perspective.

Tim Ulbrich 23:24

Yeah, and I know you work with a lot of entrepreneurs, but for everyone listening, like this work is span spans everyone, right? So obviously, we’re talking about here and the framework of, you know, being able to approach your business and how you serve others and making sure that you know, what is unconscious becomes conscious, and we’re aware of how that might be limiting what we’re doing are holding us back. But, you know, for someone who’s at the front lines at a community pharmacy, or they’re a manager or administrator at a hospital, like, this work matters for everyone. It matters in your professional life and matters in your personal life. You know, you’re talking about some of the variables that as you know, kids growing up, we experienced these things, some of them might be a traumatic enough that we remember, but often they’re not. And I know that as a parent, like there are micro moments, I had one of them with my kids last night where, you know, after there’s an interaction, it’s like, oh, like, how was that perceived? How could that have been done differently? And now how can I, there’s mistakes are going to be made? That’s a part of life. But how do I learn from that? And how can I talk that out loud and process that with them as well? And they need to hear me out loud, say, like, I am sorry, you know, I shouldn’t have done X, Y, or Z. And I could have done this differently and they need to hear those things. And I don’t get it right a lot of the time! But this work matters as an employee, as an entrepreneur as a parent, as a spouse as a you know, father, mother, brothers it matters in every relationship that we have. And so I just love the vision of what you’re sharing one of these you have on your website, which really connected with me is you said “When we reconnect back to our true essence, remember who we really are we are limitless empowered, and we’re free.”

Dr. Christina Fontana 25:03

Yep.

Tim Ulbrich 25:03

So powerful, right. And that transcends so much of what we experienced every day if we’re able to get there.

Dr. Christina Fontana 25:09

And I want to just really quickly talk about that, because that you hit on a really important point there with, you know, when when we have to cope with what’s not resolved within us, then it turns into, like, for me, it was, you know, drinking and numbing my emotions and staying busy and all of these coping mechanisms that disconnected me from myself. And so this process for me has been reconnecting back to my body, which, like, again, it’s uncomfortable. If you’ve experienced trauma, it’s so uncomfortable sometimes to go into that pain. And so oftentimes, people dissociate. And they’re like, how do I escape this? Like, can I just run away from this in any way possible vacations, whatever, whatever that coping mechanism is. But when you when you heal, that’s when you’re truly free. And I think that’s what a lot of people are seeking is through those mechanisms, like, I just feel better.

Tim Ulbrich 26:06

So right, that’s right. Yeah. And I think for you know, I’ll speak to this for a moment, just because this has been my own journey. I know, when I was doing some of the work that I’m doing now, one of my initial knee jerk reactions was like, I had a great childhood, like, there is no trauma there. You know, number one, all of us have experienced something, the magnitude of it, the significance of it can be different. But there, we all have our own journey. And, you know, I think sometimes that we can confuse things like, you know, I was provided for effectively, you know, my parents helped support me, but there could be emotional gaps there, there could be emotional gaps, and you know, how things were communicated or not communicated. And this is not about, you know, digging up things that’s going to lead to, you know, judgment and, you know, disgruntment towards others, right, I think part of this journey, is to really have peace with that. But you know, so much of that, the more to your point, the more that we can help move from being unconscious to conscious, once we’re aware of it, you know, and once we can tap into our emotions and start to slow down and say, Okay, in this moment, I’m noticing myself feeling angry, I’m feeling fear, I’m feeling shame, I’m feeling guilt, whatever it be, and then connecting that with whatever interaction we’re having. I know what I often realize is whoa, like the emotional reaction, as real as it is, is way out of whack with the reality of the situation. Okay, Where’s that coming from? Like, why am I why am I feeling so much anxiety and fear over something that went, I can just step back and kind of untether you know, myself and sort of observe like, oh, Tim, that’s interesting. Like, your heart rates increased rapidly, you have shortness of breath, like you’re, you’re, you’re becoming really tense, like, what’s all that? About? What, what’s behind that? And those are, those are tools, those are things that we can use everyday in our interactions that we have with others.

Dr. Christina Fontana 27:54

Right. Exactly. And the brain loves context, right? So like the nervous system feel safe, when we have some kind of context around, “oh okay, like, this is what’s happening.” Then you can use whatever tool to regulate and be with that part that is probably a past part of you. That’s like, hey, I need support, hey, I wasn’t supported in this way, or whatever it might be. So yeah.

Tim Ulbrich 28:21

So one of the things I’ve shared before on this show and with others, as well, is that I feel like parenting and entrepreneurship, for me have exposed so many areas of weakness or opportunities for growth, however, we want to say it.

Dr. Christina Fontana 28:37

Yeah!

Tim Ulbrich 28:38

And so many opportunities for self reflection that I’m not sure, you know, would have been there to the same degree without it right? When you’re when you’re talking about young kids, when you’re talking about business, there are things that stretch challenge, get out of your control, in a way like for me, I was very good at like keeping things in a box, and being able to kind of control and maneuver around it so that I didn’t have to experience the uncomfortable feelings and the things. Well guess what? When kids come to the equation, when business come to the equation, like that box gets blown up, sometimes they really, like for me exposed like, oh, wow, like when I don’t have control of a situation. Like that’s where I see, you know, a lot of things go awry. And and that’s an interesting discovery, like, well, what’s behind that? And why why is that there? So my question for you is, you know, as you think about your journey, in business, or in tune to be as a parent, like, what have you learned about yourself? What has been the most significant one or two things that you’ve learned about yourself through not only your own journey of healing, but also through building and growing a business?

Dr. Christina Fontana 29:36

Oh, my goodness, when I think of this analogy, when you have a business and you’re growing it, it’s like a mirror. Everything that needs to come up, that’s your client interactions, team interactions is going to come up like you said, I love that analogy. You’re like the box blows up because it’s like, you can’t hide. You’re facing off with yourself. And yeah, I would agree 100% with the control, like for me on worthiness came up control, people pleasing all of those protective parts that just wanted to keep, like, as a child, I just wanted to be safe. And I never felt safe in my house because it was so chaotic, there was a lot of abuse going on. And so I learned to shut down. And that was part of my coping mechanism, like I said, and I think, through control, and my, my dad was very, both my parents were very controlling. That’s what helped me feel like, oh, I have some sort of safety, right? So it was kind of that dynamic that still plays out. And I’m like, I have to catch myself. And I’m like, okay, and I again, like, that’s one of the layers for me that I have to continually work on. And that’s why I have continuous support coaches, different people that I hire, because I’m like, hey, I need, I need to be witnessed in this, I need to be held in this very uncomfortable situation. But at the same time, like even, you know, currently, like, in the past few months, I’ve had some situations where it really stretched me and I’ve never experienced this before. But from a higher perspective, I always come back to okay, what is God trying to teach me through this? Because my character is being strengthened through this. And so I feel the emotion, but then I also say, Okay, what am I actually learning here? And that, to me, is, is important for the integration process of like, I’m not just going through this to feel pain, I’m actually alkalizing something within myself from a past version, or whatever it is, that’s helping me become a higher version of myself, you know?

Tim Ulbrich 31:48

Yeah. And I think that integration part of the journey is so important, right? There’s obviously the feeling of the emotions, and you know, being more aware of that, and how is that impacting, you know, the relationships and things that are happening each and every day? But then what’s the integration? You know, and sometimes that’s not in the moment thing, at least speaking for myself, sometimes that’s, you know, really leaning into the curiosity, as I’ve alluded to a couple different times, and then through that curiosity, and through that self awareness, and through kind of untethering yourself in that experience, it’s okay, what, what is the integration part of this? And what is there to be learned? And how can I grow? I think that how can I grow is a good transition and segue into setting big goals. We’re getting ready to come up on the New Year, which is a time that people often look at the mirror and say, Hey, what are some things that I want to focus on? What what has been the year that’s about to end? What what do we want to shift? And how do we want to grow into the new year? And before we talk about some of the strategy and X’s and O’s for how you approach goal setting, or how you approach this with your clients as well. I want to get just your general thoughts and recommendations on how you might help someone or encourage them to get in the right mindset before they get into the goal setting. Right, the work before the work, if you will. But yeah, I think so much of the goal setting exercise, I say this about the financial plan where we can work on X’s and O’s, we can develop a retirement plan, we can develop a debt repayment, we can do all these things. But if we’re not in the right mindset around, like, why do we care about this topic of money? What’s the goal? What’s our relationship with money, all of these bigger types of things, those X’s and O’s are only going to go so far. So I think similarly here on the goal setting, there’s this important step of getting in the right mindset under which we’re then thinking about how we set goals. So what are your What are your thoughts there?

Dr. Christina Fontana 33:35

Yeah, so I think getting in the right nervous system state is even a deeper level, because when we’re in fight or flight, this prefrontal cortex is not active. So this is where our creative solutions come from, our strategic thinking, our critical thinking, and so I would always encourage and this I do this across the board with all of my clients, align the energy first. So looking at your nervous system, doing some of those exercises, but also really moving from, to what feels pleasure, like like moving from the mind of like, oh, like, How much money do I have whatever. Ask your heart and move into the body and say, What would feel really exciting for me? and I’m actually going to say this out loud because I want to, I want to commit to this. Even though I’m having a child next year, I saw somebody who had this he has a list. He’s really in a very ambitious in my audience, he’s not a pharmacist, but he was committed to speaking to 100 audiences in 2023. And he’s like at the bottom of the list. And I thought to myself, I want to do that I want to commit whether it’s through a Facebook live whatever it is Instagram speaking opportunity. I’m putting it out there. So I would love to have that as a goal so that for me feels juicy, alive. Pleasure lead, like yes! This is something about impact that I really want to move. And so from that vision, then you can obviously go into the more like practical planning pieces of it. But also, it’s like that structured flexibility, like not being too rigid, where it’s like the gripping, but allowing that co creative force of God, the universe, whatever you want to call it, like the surrender piece, because we can only control so much. Yeah. But when you when you embody that version of yourself, like tapping into the energy of this is what I want this is who would I have to be to achieve that goal? Because there’s usually an evolution or a next version of yourself, right? Maybe a higher version of yourself? What would that be? And feeling into that frequency? I recommend this to my clients to just even for five minutes, every single day, because, according to quantum physics, we’re always attracting based upon our thoughts and our electromagnetic signature from our heart. Yeah. So that’s what we attract. What we constantly think about what we’re constantly feeling. So yeah, that’s a whole other topic.

Tim Ulbrich 36:13

It’s a good one, there’s a lot of good resources out there, you know, for for people that want to learn more about that as well. But I think, you know, what you shared about the pleasure lead really resonates with with me, right, because I think for a lot of pharmacists, you know, I’ll speak for myself, but I suspect many may feel the same as well. You know, high achiever tend to want to please others, you know, want to develop these, you know, goals that may have expectations tied to others, and really slowing down and getting out of our head getting into our bodies to really take the space and time to say, Does this resonate with me? Is this an expectation of someone else? Is this really authentic to me or not. And that really requires your point, getting in the right state of our nervous system. I’ve been in these exercises with my small group of men where we meet, we meet once a week for two hours, and we kick off our meeting, typically, with one of the men leading a 15-20 minute type of meditation exercise, and I can consistently now almost have gotten to the point where I will show up, and it feels like there’s an uneven distribution of weight of my head to my body. Because I’ve been throughout the day, I’m just programmed, like through, you know, repetition, experience, whatever, that if I’m not careful and don’t slow down, I’m like, I will live so much of the day in my head, that I can actually feel like the physical exhaustion of that in my head, and really, to be able to slow down and like get into my body. And typically, by the end of that meeting, like I can actually feel like the shift of the stress and the weight in my body. And I’ve actually described it to the guys my group that like it feels like if I close my eyes, sometimes it feels like my head is like in a giant space like disproportionately weighted to the rest of my body. But it’s just such a good reminder of like slowing down, like, what are the exercises, what are the habits, one of the behaviors can really get ourselves into checking in with our body. And I think aligning that with goal setting is so important, right? Because I think if we’re not careful, like Are these your goals? Are these someone else’s goals? And even if they’re your own derived goals, maybe not at an expectation of others, does it actually resonate with you? Right? So you gave that example, which I think is a really good one, because someone else might see that and say, oh, I want to do that too, but not because it really resonates. But because they’re like, Oh, that’d be cool to speak 100 times, like, that’d be cool, right? There could be some pride there, there could be some ego there, right? You know, but the way you described as like, that really resonated with you, internally, right, for whatever reason, I think it comes full circle to where you started your story, which was, you know, early in your life, identifying that you really have a desire to want to help other people, right, that, to me, ties very directly to that. So I think getting in the right state of mind, you know, getting out of our head, making sure that it’s a pleasure lead processes, is so important. Now, I want to get a little more detail from you on this concept of structured flexibility. Because this has been my experience where I’ve gone through goal setting in many different formats. And sometimes I come up with these very comprehensive, you know, plans that seem great, you get the dopamine rush, and then two weeks in, you’re like, oh, my gosh, this is exhausting. What was I thinking I’m going in 12 directions, I’ve got every domain of wellness of, you know, defined with five different sub goals. And then I’ve been on the other end where, you know, it’s too loose, it’s maybe not motivating enough or not structured enough. And I do think there’s a middle ground here, which, which I believe is what you’re referring to the structured flexibility. So tell us more about what that looks like for you.

Dr. Christina Fontana 39:38

Yeah, I’ll just even given a concrete example of a launch. Like I just did a Pivot to Profit three days, you know, it’s a client converting workshop, like I bring everybody in, I teach them, you know, it’s like a really detailed PDF and I’m like, Okay, this is what I’m going to do. I’m going to do this three day event, deliver tons of value, and then I’m going to I’m share about one of my programs. As I’m going through the launch, I’m like, oh, I want to do a trick or treat giveaway. So that came in, like, being open to the downloads that come through, like I call them downloads. It’s like that divine kind of intuition. And so I added that in, and maybe I took something out. It’s kind of like, like cooking. It’s like, oh, do I like my food spicy. Or maybe I won’t add so much of this, but I’ll add this. So I think it’s being a little bit flexible with number one, like those components, but also not being so rigid of like, I need five clients from this launch. Like, it’s it for me, it comes back to and you talks about that word, ego, I really try. And it’s a constant thing. I’m like, Okay, I’m releasing, I know that this is my ego talking right now, that’s wanting this…outcome, I’m going to let that go. And I’m going to open up to whatever the highest outcome is going to be. And I’m going to show up and serve and give 110% and do this plan. Be flexible, you know, implement those downloads, like I said, but also having that openness of, I wonder what else could show up, that it doesn’t have to be so rigid?

Tim Ulbrich 41:20

No, that makes sense. And I think that very concrete example you just gave, you know, related to the launches is a good one, right? Because I think so often, not only can we adopt other people’s goals, but we can set a goal. And then speaking for myself, I’m so structured and rigid to that goal, that I lose any of the openness and flexibility to you know, okay, might there be a different idea, a different pathway, or even feedback from audience or, you know, different things that are coming in that says, okay, my flexible enough to be able to pivot and move in real time. And usually, if I develop a plan, it’s like, this is the plan, right? We’re going with, and I’m gonna see it…. which there’s value in that, like, you know, and there’s, there’s real value that can come from kind of that, you know, stick-to-itiveness and wanting to see it through and being resilient, but also adding some flexibility to that.

Dr. Christina Fontana 42:04

I’m laughing because I’m thinking like, that’s how I’m like, oh, like, I’m gonna plan…..with this baby and like, we’re gonna get the … and I’m like, I’m sure like, the my like, whatever is gonna blow up my plan, but that’s okay.

Tim Ulbrich 42:18

Well, this has been fantastic. And I’m so grateful for your contributions to our community, your vulnerability and sharing your story. I think many are going to find that inspiring, insightful, and maybe on some level, motivating to do some more self discovery and their journey. Also appreciate your your feedback that you gave on you know, how we can be thinking about setting goals and sharing about your entrepreneural journey. Where is the best place that our listeners can go, Christina, to learn more about your work and to follow your journey along the way as well?

Dr. Christina Fontana 42:46

Yeah, so my website is pharmacistcoach.com. And then from there, you’ll find all of my social media handles my group Monetize your Magic. Everything like my Instagram is @thepharmacistcoach so I would love to connect and feel free like I literally am an open door. So if you want to share Hey, I loved what you said in the episode or if you have questions, please reach out I’m happy to support.

Tim Ulbrich 43:12

Awesome well, we will connect in the show notes to social media, to the website pharmacistcoach.com, as well as your email [email protected] If people want to reach out directly.So, Christina, thank you so much for coming on the show and wishing you an awesome 2024.

Tim Ulbrich 43:27

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

Current Student Loan Refinance Offers

Advertising Disclosure

Note: Referral fees from affiliate links in this table are sent to the non-profit YFP Gives. Read the full advertising disclosure here.	Bonus	Starting Rates	About	YFP Gives accepts advertising compensation from companies that appear on this site, which impacts the location and order in which brands (and/or their products) are presented, and also impacts the score that is assigned to it. Company lists on this page DO NOT imply endorsement. We do not feature all providers on the market.
	$800* Loans* ≥150K = $800 100-149K = $450 <100K = $350	Variable: 5.28%+ APR (with autopay)* Fixed: 5.28%+ APR (with autopay)* *All bonus payments are by gift card. See terms	The "Kayak" of student loan refinancing, Credible displays personalized prequalified rates from multiple lenders	Check Rate
	$750* Loans ≥150K = $750* ≥50K-150k = $300	Fixed: 5.49%+ APR (with autopay)	A marketplace that compares multiple lenders that are credit unions and local banks	Check Rate
	$500* Loans ≥50K = $500	Variable: 4.99%+ (with autopay)* Fixed: 4.96%+ (with autopay)** Read rates and terms at SplashFinancial.com	Splash is a marketplace with loans available from an exclusive network of credit unions and banks as well as U-Fi, Laurenl Road, and PenFed	Check Rate

Recent Posts

[pt_view id=”f651872qnv”]

YFP 315: An Interview with Rachel Cruze (YFP Classic)

Posted on July 6, 2023July 3, 2023 by Tim U

Know Yourself, Know Your Money with New York Times Bestseller Rachel Cruze

Rachel Cruze discusses her new book, Know Yourself, Know Your Money.

About Today’s Guest

Rachel Cruze is a two-time #1 national best-selling author, financial expert, and host of The Rachel Cruze Show. Since 2010, Rachel has served at Ramsey Solutions, where she teaches people to avoid debt, save money, budget, and how to win with money at any stage in life. She’s authored three best-selling books, including her latest, Know Yourself, Know Your Money: Discover WHY You Handle Money the Way You Do and WHAT to Do About It. Follow Rachel on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube or online at rachelcruze.com.

Summary

National best-selling author and financial expert, Rachel Cruze, joins Tim Ulbrich to discuss her newest book, Know Yourself, Know Your Money: Discover WHY You Handle Money the Way You Do and WHAT to Do About It. Tim and Rachel delve into various portions of the book, highlighting specific lessons and concepts relatable to pharmacists, parents, and anyone interested in learning more about themselves and their relationship to their finances.

Rachel walks listeners through “Discovering Your Personal Money Mindset,” including how we form our ideas about money and how we learn to handle money as we do through “Your Childhood Money Classroom.” Rachel goes through the four money classrooms. She reminds us that regardless of the quadrant that you grew up in, you can choose your quadrant from this point forward. Rachel outlines seven money tendencies, how they not only impact your financial picture, and how these tendencies affect interpersonal relationships with significant others. Tim and Rachel share an earnest discussion about money fears, detailed in Chapters 5 and 6 of the book. They close with an eye-opening discussion on part 2 of the book, focusing on the “Power of Contentment.” Rachel shares how contentment changes your motivation for spending. She explains a practical exercise for determining what brings you joy and demonstrates how learning where and how you find happiness allows you to focus your spending on what is truly important to you.

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Rachel, welcome to the show.

Rachel Cruze: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Tim Ulbrich: It’s really an honor to have you on, and I’m excited to talk about your latest book, “Know Yourself, Know Your Money.” And for those listening in the YFP community that are already familiar with the Ramsey baby steps, I think this book does an excellent job covering much of the mindset, the behaviors, the beliefs that are the foundation to ensuring your goals and dreams become a reality. So Rachel, in Part 1 of the book, which is “Discovering Your Personal Money Mindset,” you talk in Chapter 1 about your childhood money classroom. And you make a strong argument that this is the first step in understanding why we handle money the way that we do and that “there are really two ways we learned about money: what our parents communicated emotionally and what they communicated verbally.” Tell us more about these two modes of communication and why it is so important to dig into our past for some honest reflection before we chart our path forward.

Rachel Cruze: Yes, well whenever you talk to any great psychologist or counselor or therapist, they will tell you that so much of who you are today is from how you grew up, whether that’s coping mechanisms, defense strategies, all of that. Learning to kind of survive really in your childhood is something that’s engrained in all of us. And so when I was writing the book, I wanted to go in and say, “OK, I want to understand why we handle money the way we do.” Like you said, it’s not just the what — you know, we talk about the how a lot around Ramsey Solutions, how to get out of debt, how to invest, how to refinance, how to give, but I wanted to answer that question, why? Why do we do the things we do? And it always stems back to that classroom that you lived in, which is your home growing up. And there’s a lot of lessons in those classrooms that we grew up in that you want to unlearn. As an adult, you’re like, I don’t want to take that with me. And there’s a lot of lessons that you do want to take with you. And so being able to just pinpoint, hey, my money habits, the way I view money, part of that is because of my environment growing up. And so those two modes of communication, like you said, the verbal, what is said out loud, and then that emotional state, is really important. So as I was writing the manuscript for this book, you know, kind of coming across these two things, and I remember thinking, oh, OK, it’s like a quadrant. God gave me a graph to explain this, and I’m so happy because it ends up being this four quadrant where that verbal communication and emotional communication intersect. And it ends up really showing these four different money classrooms. And so for you to be able to identify OK, I grew up in Classroom No. 1 or Classroom No. 2 there, and to understand that really will show you why you handle money the way you do today.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and this was really a gut check for me, Rachel, as a father of four young boys, you know, I feel like I do a decent job in communicating verbally about money. It’s something I talk about daily, but it was a gut check on like the emotional part and what are some of the messages that we’re sending to our kids? And so part of this as I read it is unlearning in part or reflecting upon your past but also for those that are out there that are parents, thinking about some of the money scripts and messages that we’re sending in our own homes as well.

Rachel Cruze: That’s right. Yeah. And even that nonverbal, you know, in the classroom, Classroom 1 is the anxious money classroom. And that’s where it’s verbally closed but emotionally stressed. Classroom 2 is the unstable money classroom where it’s emotionally stressed but verbally open, so it’s lots of conflict, lots of fighting. That Classroom 3 is the unaware money classroom, which is emotionally calm but it’s verbally closed. So it’s not talked about, but it’s also not felt. Like it’s a stress point, so you don’t really even — your head is kind of in the sand, if you will, about money until you leave home and realize, oh wow, there’s a lot to do with this subject. And then Classroom 4 is that secure money classroom. And that’s where it’s verbally open but emotionally calm. So that fourth classroom, kind of like what you’re saying, I really wanted the readers to think about their current nuclear family to say, OK, if I do have kids or if I want kids in the future, how am I going to do this on the verbal and emotional scale? And so moving to that Classroom 4 is really important for people because the thing about that is you don’t have to be a perfect parents by any means to be in that classroom. You also don’t have to have a ton of money, right? You don’t have to be like a millionaire to be in that. It’s these habits that you create. And what’s funny is when you’re emotionally calm about money, usually there’s a plan around it, usually there’s a level of healthy control. There’s some safety nets in place like an emergency fund, you know, there’s these habits that you do in the how-to of money that set you up to create that emotionally stable home around this subject where for so many people it’s not safe, it’s not emotionally calm, it is very stressed. And when you look at the statistics of the average American today, I’m like, yeah, I would be stressed too, right? Living paycheck-to-paycheck, having $16,000 of credit card debt, all of it. So I understand why that is, but getting yourself in a place financially where you’re more under control, you’re naturally going to bring in that emotional side in your household, which is amazing. And then the verbal side you pointed out too is talking about it. And I think it’s less taboo today than it was even 20 years ago. I think parents engage their kids in more conversations maybe than the Boomers did for their kids, you know, like when you look at the different generational differences. But again, engaging it and showing the mechanics but also the other side of it of hey, here’s what contentment looks like. Here’s what generosity does to your heart and your viewpoint in life. I mean, you know, bringing in those hard and soft subjects of money are important to talk to about with kids.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I love, Rachel, how you take folks through this journey of understanding these four different classrooms you mentioned in the quadrant. And it can be heavy to kind of walk through and reflect on some of this. But you end Chapter 3 where you talk about calm money classrooms, you end Chapter 3 by reassuring us that our childhood does not define us. You say, “Your childhood may have given you a rocky start, but it doesn’t make or break you, regardless of the household you grew up in. You get to choose your quadrant from this point forward.” What an awesome view, right? We learn from the past, but we’ve got an opportunity to chart a new path going forward.

Rachel Cruze: That’s right, yeah. I mean, there’s so much hope and I think even in the money piece of my messages that I communicate with people is like no matter what mistakes you’ve made, yeah, maybe you do have a ton of debt. So on a more logistical side, yeah, maybe you have a deeper hole to dig out of than the person next to you, but no matter what, you get to make the decisions to say, no, I actually want to change how I view something or the habits around money. And the same is true with your classroom. Some people, a lot of people I would say, grew up in a hard environment when it came to money with their parents. But yet you don’t have to just mirror that story, right? You can take charge of your life to say, you know what, I’m not going to sit here and bash my parents, but I’m also not going to defend them. I’m going to just tell the truth of what happened, and here’s the truth. OK, there’s some good stuff, and there’s some bad stuff. And the bad stuff I can forgive, and I’m going to move forward though to choose something different for my life and my family. And I think it’s powerful. And I think we have to do that in all of parenting. I’m not a parenting expert by any means, but I’m like, you know, my husband and I have said, OK, this is our family. What are we going to choose to do in this? And so the money pieces is part of that.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And give yourself some grace along the way, right?

Rachel Cruze: That’s right. Oh, absolutely. There’s hope in grace. Absolutely.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. Rachel, in Chapter 4, which is “Your Unique Money Tendencies,” you introduce seven major money tendencies. And we’re not going to go through all of these, but I’ll read them off quickly. And those seven are save or spender, nerd or free spirit, experiences or things, quality or quantity, safety or status, abundance or scarcity, and planned giving or spontaneous giving. And I want to break down one of these further that I suspect our audience has heard of before, and that is the concept of being a nerd or being a free spirit. And so this as one example of these different tendencies, tell us more about the difference between these two and why each really has its own benefits and challenges and we want to think about these on a scale.

Rachel Cruze: Yes. Well, when I did these seven tendencies, I didn’t want one to be right or wrong because I feel like that can happen a lot. You know, it’s just no, these are naturally where you’re bent, and if you go to the extremes of any of these tendencies, that can get unhealthy. Kind of that middle ground is to say, ‘OK, I’m naturally bent towards this, but I can actually have a little bit of both,’ which makes you I think more well-rounded, honestly. But yeah, the nerd and free spirit, that was kind of a phrase that was coined, two terms that were coined by my dad, honestly, about probably 20 years ago talking about the budget specifically and how I make it a little bit more broad in just the idea of how you view money, but one of you — or if you’re married, usually opposites attract. But you either lean toward a nerd, which is the one that yeah, you’re just organized, you probably have Excel spreadsheets all over the place, you love to budget, you love to feel in control, you know what’s going on, you keep up with everything, numbers are your friends, it feels great to know what’s going on. And so that nerd is naturally going to be bent one way towards money, which obviously is more the control factor. Sometimes more the scarcity mindset, they want to just know what’s going on. And then the free spirit is on the opposite end, and that’s the person that is more hey, everything is going to work out. It’s fine, it’s fine. A budget to them, it feels restrictive. It feels like there’s no fun in life if I have to live on a budget, that means I have to say no a lot, and I don’t want to say no. I want to say yes because you only live once, you know? It’s a little bit more of that mentality. And what’s funny is I actually lean more free spirit in who I am, so this money stuff and budgeting, some of it was hard for me to say, OK, I have to learn this because I don’t have to become a nerd to be good at money. That’s not the reason behind this. But it is to say, “Hey, there are qualities that I need to pick up,” because if I’m a free spirit on the extreme of the free spirit side, I’m probably going to be broke. I’m probably going to have lots of debt because I’m not keeping up with anything, I’m just doing what I want in the moment, what feels good. And that’s not wise. But I also don’t have to absolutely love numbers like my husband. He is more of the nerd. Like I mean, he has spreadsheets. He’s like all about the five-year goal and what’s going in each month, looking at the mutual funds. I mean, he just loves it. And I’m like, I’m the money person that talks about this every day, and I don’t love it that much. Like I’ll do the budget and track transactions, but that’s about it. So again, it’s just pinpointing hey, here’s where I lean, here’s places I can learn, and here’s some really great things about that side of the nerd or great things about the free spirit. And then if you’re married, again, it’s good to call that too because I think in marriage, money can be such a difficult subject. But to be able to say, “OK, you’re not my enemy in this. You’re just more of a nerd in that or you’re more of a free spirit, so how can we come together and work as a team?”

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, you do a great job in the book going through each one of these sets that I mentioned and not only what they are and some of the differences and where that balance might but also some great exercises at the end of the chapter where folks can reflect upon those, and I think it would be great conversation starters as well for couples that are going through this together. Rachel, Chapters 5 and 6, it gets real, right? You start to talk about your money fears, six of them in total. And I want to pick apart the fear that you say is the most common one you see, which is not having enough. And essentially, this is if something bad happens, the fear that I won’t survive financially. And as you talk about in the book, this could be job loss, this could be a huge health bill, this could be a major house issue. And really, the list can go on and on of all of the things that might go wrong. And it could be a today thing, a today fear, or it could be a future fear. For example, will I have enough when it comes time to retirement? And I think this quickly becomes overwhelming and for many can become paralyzing. And as you say in the book, the “what if” question, it’s a scary question. And so tell us more here, how can we face this fear head-on without it ultimately paralyzing us to take action with our financial plan?

Rachel Cruze: Yeah, when we talk about fear — for this book, I did a lot of research around it because usually fear is just seen as a 100% bad thing, right? Face your fears, don’t let your fear hold you back, all that. Well, some of that, yes, is very true. I remember talking to Dr. Chip Dodd about this, and I loved what he said because he said, fear can actually be a gift. Fear is your body’s response that you are in need of something. Now, again, when that fear becomes paralyzing or turns into anxiety, like any of that, we don’t want that. But just that initial fear, OK, what is that telling you? Because it actually could be telling you something that you need to listen to to diminish that fear. So for a lot of people — and gosh, we just walked through 2020, right, which was just the craziest year I think of all of our lives, around this. And so you could say, OK, my fear is that if something happens, am I going to be OK? If we lose a job, am I going to be OK? Well, you look at your situation and again, just pulling in just stats that I know that 78% of Americans live paycheck-to-paycheck, the average car payment is around $548, the average family owes $16,000 just on their credit cards. So you put all that together and if something happens, are you going to be OK? Well yeah, you’re going to be able to literally survive. But financially, you’re going to be in a mess. You’re going to be in a mess if you don’t have another paycheck to pay these bills. So let’s look at the reality of what’s going on. Again, it’s not to paralyze you, but it’s to say, OK, what can I do now to get in better control of my money? Am I budgeting? Am I living on less than I make? Do I have an emergency fund? And do I have a goal that I’m working towards that actually puts my money towards something, right? Am I giving? Like am I doing these things? And for a lot of people, if they say, “No, I’m not,” hopefully it’s a little bit of a motivator. I don’t think fear has to be the only motivator, but I think it’s a good jumpstart to it of OK, let’s get some things in place so that we can say, OK, maybe you look up in 24, 36 months, three years down the road, and you’re completely debt-free, you have a fully-funded emergency fund of 3-6 months worth of expenses. You now have retirement planned out, you know how much you’re putting in each month, like you actually have a plan in place. And what caused that may have been that fear of wow, if I lose one paycheck, this entire thing just implodes is what it feels like. So again, let that fear drive you. And again, it’s a big one, that fear of am I going to be OK? And what’s interesting is prior to 2020, it was women’s top financial fear. So for some men, it was oh, there’s a dream that I have that I can’t get to because of my life or you fill in the lank. But women day-in and day-out, consistently when surveyed, it was am I going to be OK? And then I think you fast forward to 2021, I don’t have hard data for this, but I would say a lot of people now are in that bucket.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Rachel Cruze: Because of what we walked through. So again, I want this fear to not turn into something that’s super unhealthy, but I want it to be a little bit of that jumpstart to say OK, is this rational? OK, maybe it is. So maybe I need to change some things. But then also I’ll tell you this too: It could be irrational. I mean, my husband and I have been doing this plan for 11 years of marriage, so we are, we’re debt-free — I mean, we’ve done it to the t. And it works, No. 1, I can say that. I’m the proof. But No. 2, even during the pandemic, I had a few nights where I went to bed thinking, oh my gosh, are we going to be OK? But what allowed me a little bit to have that safety is realizing No. 1, black-and-white on paper, the numbers, yes, we’re going to be fine because we’ve been doing this, we’ve been diligent. But also No. 2, Rachel, it’s a little bit of a wakeup call for me emotionally to say why am I so fearful that this foundation that I’ve set, this financial foundation, that if it was shook, who am I? Right? And it made me do a gut check, honestly, to say OK, where is my identity? Where have I been putting value? Because money, while we need to be responsible with it and we want to be able to do things like get out of debt and build wealth and change our family tree and be generous to others, all of these wonderful things, money is not our God. And if it’s the thing day-in and day-out that you’re looking toward, it’s not going to fulfill you. And I kind of got to a place where I had to do a gut check on myself last year to think, OK, who am I emotionally on that side, right, if that foundation is shaken? So again, this fear conversation I think is a really important one to have. And I think it’s a really good one to have.

Tim Ulbrich: I do too. And I think it can be motivating for the reasons that you mentioned. Our listeners have heard me say many times about really building a strong financial foundation and think about what the building blocks of that are. But there are challenges that can be had in the security of that foundation and what you’re ultimately putting that security in. So I think a great reminder. And this section of the book, as I mentioned, really powerful. You talked through several other fears. We’re just scratching the surface here. You talk about the fears of not realizing your dreams, of not being capable, external fears, past mistakes, repeating the past, you know, all types of things that we want to be considering. So I hope folks will pick up a copy of the book and check that out. Rachel, Part 2 of the book, “Discovering What You Do With Money and Why,” you connect the information the reader learns in Part 1 so that it can then be applied to their personal situation. And one thing that stood out to me in this section was the concept that you talk about, the power of contentment. And you say that “contentment is a process that changes your motivation for spending money.” Tell us more about that.

Rachel Cruze: Yeah, contentment I think is a huge piece of this financial conversation that has to be in place because money is like a magnifying glass. It makes you more of what you already are. And so if you are a discontent person and you think — and it’s all of us, you know, at different times in life for sure and maybe different parts of the day too, so I’m not speaking out of that I have found the answer to it all — but realizing though if we live in a discontentment state, which usually results in OK, if I can just make x amount of money, if I can just buy this kind of car, if I can go on that kind of vacation, if I live in this kind of house, then everything is going to be fixed. And we think that in our culture in our country that our problems are fixed by stuff. And that discontentment is just magnified, and the problem is that if you build wealth and you actually have the money to go and get these things, you get the things, and it doesn’t fulfill you and you’re discontent again with just more stuff around you. And so there’s that heart piece that I think is important to keep in check. And for me, it’s calling out to people, OK, what are the things in your life that money — there’s not a price tag towards. And this was kind of my journey even just last year, I thought, Rachel, what are the things in my life that I can’t pay for. Well, that’s a great marriage, having children that I am trying to raise in the best way possible, my health, my spiritual walk, my family, you know, my friendships, like relationships. So kind of mapping those things out and realizing OK, if I can invest my time and my energy in those things, life is so much richer, right? And again, not that it doesn’t mean you can’t have a great house or go on a great vacation. My husband and I just got back on Saturday from a fun trip that him and I just took, you know, for a few nights. It was fantastic. It was wonderful. But those things don’t fulfill you, right? It’s the fact that I was with my husband. And we got to have that time together. That is what was fulfilling. And so all of that I think stems to that contentment, and that contentment piece, again, I think is — we tried to find it in stuff, and I really push people to find it in things that money can’t buy.

Tim Ulbrich: My favorite part of the book, Rachel, is that you make a really good case for the importance of connecting saving and dreaming. Saving and dreaming. And we talk a lot on this show about having a strong financial why. And this chapter reminded me of that concept. You say that, “Not having any savings is a worrying sign for two big problems. The first problem is that your house isn’t in order. You’re not prepared. But not having savings is also a worrying sign of a second problem: that you’re not tuned into your dreams.” What do you mean by this?

Rachel Cruze: Well, when I did this part of the book, you know, I wanted to kind of walk through OK, why do we spend the way we spend? Why do we save the way we save? Why do we give the way we give? And so when I was in that saving section, I was like, OK, why do we save the way we save? And I’m like, well, what are the things we save for? What are the — I’m like, well, it’s because we have these dreams. Is it to build a house one day? Is it to be debt-free? You know, whatever it is, and that gives purpose behind our dollars. It gives us purpose to say OK, when the money comes in, I actually know where it’s going. It’s going to something that I value in life. And that’s what makes things rich, right? That’s what brings joy. And people that just live life and they’re not intentional, it’s just kind of that paycheck-to-paycheck, I go to work, I get paid, I just keep doing the same thing. And you look up in five years and not much has changed about your life, I bet your savings hasn’t changed either because you don’t have a goal, you don’t have something you’re saving towards. And so that dreaming portion, it is, it’s so, so critical. I mean, any great book motivator that shows you how to be better in certain parts of your life, goals are always in there. Those dreams are always in there. And so there’s the short-term dreams, have something that you’re working towards five years and less so that you can get to it quickly. And then have those dreams that are five years or more that you say, OK, out there in the future, what do I want? And then also have shared dreams. If those two dreams don’t coincide with your spouse, then have something you guys are working at together. I mean, all of this is going to be a partnership if you’re married. But I think having those dreams together is so crucial where yes, we are individuals, so my husband may have a dream to go on a hunting trip, you know, to South Dakota. That’s not my dream. That’s great if that’s his dream. It’s not my dream. So what are the dreams that we have together? And so all of that, it gives you such motivation. And it was funny, that trip we just went on last week, we had an agenda. We had like four things we wanted to talk about. But one of them was we literally set our financial dreams. One of ours was to build a house, and we moved in November of ‘19. And honestly, since then, I mean, we went through 2020, which was crazy. Now, we’re kind of on the other side saying, OK, what do we want? Besides just a number, what are the things that we’re shooting for? And just having those conversations, it’s so fun. I mean, it just brings life to you or again, if you’re married, to your marriage, just to have things that you’re working towards together. Again, it gives you purpose. It gives you purpose to save. And if there’s not purpose to save, you’re more than likely not going to do it.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I think shared dreams, it’s so important. Great wisdom. I think especially for folks that are in the weeds and maybe frustrated with the budget or feeling like a goal is taking forever, I think some of those dreams can lift folks together and get excited behind the vision, you know, especially while there’s other things that are happening along the way. Rachel, I want to wrap up our time by talking about giving. And you make the case that giving is ultimately the antidote to fear. Why is that the case?

Rachel Cruze: There’s something about living life with an open hand where you say, “You know what, I’m actually going to give things,” because I think the opposite of that is that closed fist mentality where you’re going to just control everything and it’s all yours and it’s just all right here, and there’s a level of that that just, it gets exhausting. And there’s not joy in that. And so when you actually open your hand and give, which sounds counterintuitive, right, if I’m trying to put money towards a dream or I’m trying to put money towards getting out of debt or building an emergency fund, but I’m giving some of it away, like that just seems so backwards where in fact what it does is it fuels you. Because when you live a life that you move on the spectrum from being selfish where it is all about you to selfless where you actually see other people and you see OK, the needs that are out there, things that your money can do, even if it’s not a lot of money, but using it as a tool to help people, it changes you. I mean, it really, really changes you. And there’s nothing like it. It’s cliche to say, but it’s true. The joy that you get from giving is unlike any other joy that you can have in life. Like it gives something to you, to your soul. Because I think we were created to be givers. And when you’re living in that, it changes your perspective. And I also think selfless people have a better quality of life. I think they’re better spouses, better parents, better coworkers, better friends. You know, people that actually care about other people, it’s an amazing thing, but I think it does, it gives you a quality of life that’s so deep. And I think that it can be — obviously you can give all different kinds of ways, but your money is one of those. And when you live that life with an open hand, it does something to your soul that I think is so, so healthy in a world that is so self-centered.

Tim Ulbrich: Rachel, great, great stuff. Where is the best place that our community can go to connect with you and learn more about your work?

Rachel Cruze: Yeah, you can go to RachelCruze.com. The book “Know Yourself, Know Your Money” is anywhere books are sold. And I’m also — I have a podcast, “The Rachel Cruze Show” you can check out as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. So to the YFP community, make sure to pick up your copy of “Know Yourself, Know Your Money,” available really anywhere, also available at RamseySolutions.com. We’ve just scratched the surface during this interview. I’m confident you’ll gain so much more from digging into the book and completing the activities at the end of each chapter. In the book, you’ll discover what’s at the root of your money tendencies, including how to overcome your biggest money fears, how your childhood impacts your money decisions today, and what really motivates your spending, saving, giving, and more. Rachel, thank you again for taking time to come on the show. Really appreciate it.

Rachel Cruze: No, thanks for having me. Really, really thankful. Thanks.

[END]

Current Student Loan Refinance Offers

Advertising Disclosure

Note: Referral fees from affiliate links in this table are sent to the non-profit YFP Gives. Read the full advertising disclosure here.	Bonus	Starting Rates	About	YFP Gives accepts advertising compensation from companies that appear on this site, which impacts the location and order in which brands (and/or their products) are presented, and also impacts the score that is assigned to it. Company lists on this page DO NOT imply endorsement. We do not feature all providers on the market.
	$800* Loans* ≥150K = $800 100-149K = $450 <100K = $350	Variable: 5.28%+ APR (with autopay)* Fixed: 5.28%+ APR (with autopay)* *All bonus payments are by gift card. See terms	The "Kayak" of student loan refinancing, Credible displays personalized prequalified rates from multiple lenders	Check Rate
	$750* Loans ≥150K = $750* ≥50K-150k = $300	Fixed: 5.49%+ APR (with autopay)	A marketplace that compares multiple lenders that are credit unions and local banks	Check Rate
	$500* Loans ≥50K = $500	Variable: 4.99%+ (with autopay)* Fixed: 4.96%+ (with autopay)** Read rates and terms at SplashFinancial.com	Splash is a marketplace with loans available from an exclusive network of credit unions and banks as well as U-Fi, Laurenl Road, and PenFed	Check Rate

YFP 200: An Interview with Sarah Fallaw of The Next Millionaire Next Door

Posted on April 22, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

An Interview with Sarah Fallaw of The Next Millionaire Next Door

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Dr. Sarah Stanley Fallaw, co-author of The Next Millionaire Next Door and founder of DataPoints LLC, a behavioral assessment advisor fintech company, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about the surprising secrets of those who achieve millionaire status, how psychology and personal finance intersect, and why it is so important to understand your financial behaviors and tendencies.

About Today’s Guest

Sarah Stanley Fallaw, Ph.D. is the co-author of The Next Millionaire Next Door and the founder of DataPoints LLC, a behavioral assessment advisor fintech company. DataPoints created the industry’s first assessment of wealth potential based on The Millionaire Next Door. Her research on psychometrics and financial psychology has been featured in conferences and publications including Financial Planning Review, Industrial and Organizational Psychology, and the Journal of Financial Services Professionals. Sarah received her Ph.D. in Applied Psychology from the University of Georgia in 2003. Learn more about her work and research at www.datapoints.com.

Summary

On this episode, Tim Ulbrich welcomes Dr. Sarah Stanley Fallaw, co-author of The Next Millionaire Next Door and founder of DataPoints LLC to the show to discuss the secrets and behaviors of millionaires in the United States. Dr. Fallaw shares her experience of co-authoring The Next Millionaire Next Door with her father and outlines some of the behavioral research that went into writing it.

Tim and Sarah mention the money personality assessment tool offered by DataPoints that both pharmacists and those in the field of financial advising can use to better understand personal factors that influence spending, saving, and wealth. Tim mentions how when taking this assessment, he was surprised by some of the questions and ultimately how certain personal characteristics can influence financial decisions.

The key points and concepts from The Next Millionaire Next Door are also discussed and related back to the career and financial situation of today’s pharmacists. Concepts included in the discussion include myths about wealth and income, perceptions about wealth and how wealth is built in America, external influences and factors that can ultimately affect our wealth, the typical lifestyle that most millionaires in our country live, treating personal finance like a business, and the investing patterns of millionaires.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Dr. Fallaw, thank you so much for joining us today.

Sarah Fallaw: Thank you for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, I’ve been looking forward to having you on the show and really excited to have you on as a special guest. This is our 200th podcast, so a big moment for us in the YFP community. And you joined us way back on Episode 035, the Science of Behavioral Finance, that went live back in February 2018. So we’re three years ago where you and Tim Baker, our Director of Financial Planning, talked about how your company DataPoints applies lessons from the book “The Millionaire Next Door,” written by your father, Thomas Stanley. And you two, Tim and you also dug into different factors that measure the propensity to build wealth. So today, we’re going to dig a little bit further into that conversation, talk about behavioral finance, the applications to one’s financial plan. But let’s start if you could share a little bit more about your background, your training, your career, and the work that you’re doing with DataPoints.

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me on this milestone episode. That’s exciting for you guys. You know, as you mentioned, obviously connected through my father to “The Millionaire Next Door” and research on wealth. But my background is in industrial psychology. So I’m a psychometrician, if you will, by training. And really, the focus that I’ve had throughout my career is trying to understand characteristics and competencies of individuals. And then of course, in the later part of my career, taking that research that went into “The Millionaire Next Door,” and saying, well, how can I help people understand themselves, particularly clients? How can I help the advisor understand how a client might behave or make decisions about finances related to their personality and things like that. And so that’s my background and how I got into this area.

Tim Ulbrich: So how does one — I have to know — how does one get interested in industrial psychology and become a psychometrician? How does that happen?

Sarah Fallaw: Yes, yeah, how does that happen? Well, you start off in clinical psychology, thinking that you want to help everyone. And then you realize or recognize that you might be better suited for the statistical side of psychology, and so that’s how you end up in industrial psychology. No, really, I felt a calling to be in the business side and certainly industrial psychologists are the ones that are applying psychological principles to the workplace, how do you hire people, how do you develop them, how do you have a great organizational culture? All those things. And so that was really what I was attracted to in the field of psychology and then psychometrics kind of came alongside that really using survey research, test development, all those kinds of things to understand individuals. So that’s how you fall into that. You just kind of start on one path, and you end up on another.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, I really appreciate that. You know, we say often on this show and I know from personal experience, so much of personal finance is behavioral. And we’re going to dig into that a little bit further. And I love the mission that you have and the work that you’re doing at DataPoints, helping advisors understand the client money mindset and how that obviously then connects to the financial plan. And you’ve got a really interesting quiz tool that really helps folks understand their money personality. We’ll link to that in the show notes. Folks can find that at DataPoints.com/personality. So tell us a little bit about this personality test, this money personality assessment and really how it can help someone learn about their financial behaviors or perhaps help the advisor who is working with that client to understand how those behaviors connect with the financial plan.

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, absolutely. So what we know from research, not only obviously that my father conducted but lots of academic research in the fields of financial planning as well as psychology, that certain characteristics about ourselves lead to great money behaviors or maybe not so great choices. So the test that you mentioned is one that measures five factors of personality, which is a really well-researched model, so you know, how are we all different in terms of our attitudes, values, experiences, that kind of thing. And they break down into those five areas that you’ll see things like conscientiousness, so obviously as pharmacists, conscientiousness is of utmost importance. But it’s also an important characteristic when we’re talking about saving and spending and making good financial decisions. So it’s actually predictive of someone’s net worth, it’s predictive of financial success. Some of the other characteristics, things like agreeableness. So how do we get along with other people? Are we there caring for others or are we sort of out for ourselves? What we find, unfortunately, is that those that tend to be a little more agreeable are also those that maybe spend a little bit more than they should. And that makes sense, right? Like we want to pick up the check. We want to take care of this, that kind of thing. So understanding some of those — those are just two of the five — but understanding those characteristics can help you understand what you might do in certain situations and then maybe how to avoid those situations or how to prepare for that situation the next time. So those are some of the things that you can learn about yourself and certainly then, again, if you’re a financial advisor, you can use that information to help your clients as well.

Tim Ulbrich: I really enjoyed this, taking it myself and reading the report and findings. It took me about, I don’t know, 7 or 8 minutes to get through it. And it was different than what I was expecting. You know, I’ve taken lots of money self-assessment tools that are out there, and I think often they’re focused on like your risk tolerance and how conservative or how aggressive. And this really threw me for a loop. I mean, questions like, “I enjoy reflecting on challenges, problems, or large issues,” or “I tend to understand others’ feelings and thoughts. And at first as I was taking it, I was like, how is this going to connect to the financial plan? And then when it got to those five personality buckets that you mentioned, the extraversion, the conscientiousness, the openness, the agreeableness, and the neuroticism, I was like, OK, I’m starting to see the connection and obviously the report and the guide talks about that further. But I can certainly see how one’s awareness of these as well as their coach’s awareness of these could be really helpful as it comes to developing their plan. And I was feeling good, Sarah, about myself when I saw the high conscientiousness, as I suspect many pharmacists would.

Sarah Fallaw: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: And not so good then when I saw oh man, agreeableness, not so high, and neuroticism, a little bit higher. But you’ve got to dig deeper, right, than just the terms that are there.

Sarah Fallaw: Exactly. Yeah. And there’s always a good — a positive and a negative about any score that you have. So obviously taking that openness to experience one as an example, if you are high on it, it means you’re creative, you like new and different experiences. If you’re low on it, you like things to be the same. And so you know, those can be good or bad depending on the situation that you’re in. Certainly for accumulating wealth, it tends to be better if you’re more of a traditional, I like things the way they are. But again, it can be a good thing for your mental health to be trying new things and experiencing new foods and all kinds of things like that.

Tim Ulbrich: Very good. And let’s shift gears to talk about the work of “The Millionaire Next Door” and the follow-up, “The Next Millionaire Next Door,” which was, as I mentioned to you before we hit record, really both of those books have been transformational for me in my own personal journey. And a lot of what we do and the philosophy of what we do at YFP and how we approach our education and what we believe in I think aligns very well with those two resources and the research that you’ve found and obviously a strong connection there to behavioral finance and the work that you’re doing at DataPoints. So let’s start, I suspect many of our listeners have heard of “The Millionaire Next Door,” arguably one of the best personal finance books and resources of all time, and give us a 10,000-foot overview of that book. What was your father’s aim for the book? And ultimately, high level, what were the findings?

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, so it was written — I’ll start with that sort of aim question portion of it. You know, he had spent his lifetime studying how individuals build and sustain wealth. So he studied affluent populations in the United States. He was a marketing researcher. And so his goal with “The Millionaire Next Door” was to help individuals understand that there was this kind of component of affluent America, which was made up of people that did this on their own. It wasn’t just the case that they had rich uncles and aunts and that they were born into a certain kind of family. There still to this day was a large component of millionaires who were self-made. And he felt like there were so many unusual aspects of this group that he wanted to share it with individuals. Early in his career, he was teaching, he was consulting, he was working really, really hard and saw several of his peers do that too. He felt like if he could give people this information that maybe that could save them from some of this constant income earning-spending, income earning-spending cycle that they were in. And so that was really the aim. But again, the 10,000-foot view of the book is really that there are certain characteristics that allow individuals to build wealth over time. And again, a lot of times it has to do with the career you choose, with the spouse you choose, with the place you start living when you first buy a home and things like that. And there are, again, these certain characteristics that millionaires exhibit that allow them to build and sustain wealth over time.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I remember one of the — I can remember one of the tables reading that book, but there’s the big-ticket items like your career, obviously the spouse, the home that you live in, the neighbors and the community that you’re in, all those things that influence your spending patterns and behaviors. And then there’s some other things that may not seem as large on the surface, the jeans you buy, you know, the cars that you drive, things like that that can have a very profound impact and perhaps a window into other spending patterns and behaviors. I personally find, Sarah, that the research that affirms the opportunity for folks to really create their own opportunities and to become self-made, I find that very refreshing and I suspect many of our listeners will who are facing sometimes $150,000-200,000 of student loan debt upon graduation. They’ve got a great income to work with, but they can often feel like they’re starting at point like, oh man, forget about it. Like is there even an opportunity going forward? And I think the compound effect of being intentional with those micro decisions along the way is going to be really important. So why the need for a second edition? Tell us about “The Next Millionaire Next Door” and ultimately how you decided that this resource was necessary as a follow-up.

Sarah Fallaw: You know, that kind of came out of a couple of different things. You know, No. 1, it had been nearly 20 years I think at the time when my father started talking about that, sort of a new book. And it was time to look at some new data, to look at some new aspects of spending, you know, social media was not a thing, right, back in 1996. That was — no one knew that we would have Facebook back then. And so there were a lot of different aspects that he wanted to consider and I was serving in the role of the statistician, I was going to do the survey data collection and the analysis and those kinds of things. And it really wasn’t designed necessarily to be a second edition. You know, he’d had that question asked of him many times by publishers and things like that. But instead, he wanted to really take a fresh look at things. And so yeah, you know, it started off as something that we were collaborating on. And then as you know, he passed away in 2015, was killed by a drunk driver. So I had the privilege of finishing the book without him but certainly the beginning of it and the ideas for it came from him. So yeah, that’s kind of where it came from.

Tim Ulbrich: And there really are so many “Aha!” moments throughout the book. I found myself in both “The Millionaire Next Door” and “The Next Millionaire Next Door,” really shaking my head in agreement with the writing, the research findings, and I think analytical pharmacists and scientists will appreciate the research and the power that’s behind it because often, you know, personal finance education and advice can feel squishy at times. And to really have some research supporting these findings that we can then try to align our behaviors with to give ourself a chance of success I think is very refreshing. So I want to dig into some of the key findings in the book, and I’m going to hit a couple highlights in different chapters of the book hopefully to give our audience really just a sampling of the outstanding content that is throughout and then of course would encourage folks to pick up their own copy of “The Next Millionaire Next Door.” So in Chapter 1, titled “The Millionaire Next Door is Alive and Well,” you share a truth that is so important and I think can often be looked over or easily confused. And that is that wealth is not income. And income is not wealth. So tell us about what this means, what the differences are between income and wealth.

Sarah Fallaw: Yep, absolutely. So I think — and again, you would think after 20 years, 25+ years now, people would see the difference. But it’s hard for even me and certainly my teenagers to even see that. But the truth is how much we make has very little to do with how much we keep. And that’s the idea. You know, we have this confusion in our brain, we see individuals with nice cars or in the best houses or whatever it might be, and we equate spending to having money in the bank. And unfortunately, they’re not. And I think a lot of us, particularly when we come out of grad school, when I came out of grad school, and we have a great big salary and we’re excited about that, you know, again, particularly for pharmacists, it’s just not the same. So we confuse that level of income that we’re receiving with being wealthy, which leads to us spending above our means in terms of our wealth and can lead to a whole host of things. So I think that that’s a mindset that, gosh, if we could teach our kids that, if we could learn that early on in college or grad school, before we have that income that comes in, we would be better off for a whole host of reasons. But yes, that continues to be a struggle. When we work with advisors, that’s one of their struggles, particularly with working with younger clients that are just newly out of school and things like that too.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and if you can crack that nut on teaching your teenagers, let me know so I can teach my boys as well.

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah. Me too.

Tim Ulbrich: Such an important thing of the mindset and a whole separate conversation about what may work, what may not work, and doing that. So you know, I think of pharmacists here, Sarah, and one of the things that pharmacists are blessed with is a great income, often at a very young age, you know, of course I’m overgeneralizing for a moment, but typically pharmacists will come out of school if they go through four years of undergrad, four years of their doctorate training, perhaps some residency after that, you know, still late 20s or maybe early 30s, making a good six-figure income. But one of the challenges is that many pharmacists’ income may remain relatively flat through their career. And so I think this point is all the more important that, you know, I know from personal experience, many of our listeners know that as time goes on, things become more expensive. You know, just generally speaking, right? Our goals, our aspirations, perhaps children, families that are growing, other things that we want to do. And so if our income is not going to see an exponential growth, then we’ve got to really try to be diligent right out of the gates to make sure we establish those behaviors that are going to allow us to create margin. And I know for my wife Jess and I, one of the “Aha!” moments we had early on in our career is OK, good income, but if income comes in and income goes out and it’s not sticking, which I think is really what net worth is a good indicator of what’s sticking, then we’re going to be in trouble ultimately with being able to achieve our long-term financial goals. So net worth, a really good indicator I think of one’s overall financial health. And I think this mindset that you talk about in Chapter 1 is so important. Now, in Chapter 2, “Ignoring the Myths,” you say that in order to build wealth, we have to discontinue or ignore the myths of how wealth is built in America. What do you mean here? And how can we take our financial future into our own hands?

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, you know, there are a couple of things that go along with this, certainly one of them being that, again, wealth isn’t the same as income and things like that. But you know, there are a lot of kind of, again, mindsets from whether we adopted those as children or adolescents, from the life experiences we’ve had, or that’s what we see in the media, that can keep us from kind of owning the building of wealth, right? So how, for example, if I take myself and say, well, I’m a woman, how can I run a fintech company? Well all of a sudden, I’ve created this sort of artificial, if you will, hurdle for me to get past in order to make the right decisions and to continue on. And it’s the same with building wealth. So if we kind of adopt the mentality that ‘Well, I have all this debt, there’s no way I can get out of it,’ or again, for example, ‘I’m a woman,’ ‘I’m a minority,’ or something like that or ‘I’m in this particular group, I won’t be able to get past that,’ that’s one of the things I think that differentiates those that tend to be financially successful is they see past that no matter what group they belong to or kind of what background they’ve experienced in the past, they’re able to move past that. And so there are a lot of those myths, and they have to do more with like financial attitudes, and that can prevent individuals from actually working to achieve goals because they view wealth as something that can’t achieve.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think what you’re sharing here reminds me of so often we, like many other I’m sure financial planners, get questions like, “Hey, what should I do with my student loans? What should I do about this investment? What should I do about that?” And I think what this is highlighting is often we have to really unwind and understand, you know, what are the money scripts that we’ve been told over time? I’ve heard somebody reference it like, you know, whether it’s family interactions, whether it’s societal types of stories that we’ve been told or believed, we all have some script, we have some baggage with us about how we view and interpret money. And that of course has a fundamental influence on how we spend, on how we save, on how we approach this with a significant other. And we’ve got to be able to understand some of that I think and be able to really set goals and understand some of these behavioral pieces before we start to attack the x’s and o’s of the financial plan. And so I hope folks will hear some of this and take a step back and say OK, what are some of my own behaviors that I need to better understand that if I take the time to do so will have a real big influence on how I approach my financial plan. Chapter 3, you talk about the influences on wealth. And you know, one of the questions I think of here is what outside influences may impact one’s ability to build wealth? So how does our upbringing, how do our friends, how does our spouse really play a role in this? And what does the research say?

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, so again, one of the key kind of indicators or predictors of financial success is being able to ignore or to not be influenced. But you know, again, there are a lot of different ways that others can make us feel as if we are making certain decisions. So you know, certainly we can talk about upbringing, we see that if your mom or your father but mostly your mother has the most strongest influence, if they tended to be frugal growing up, you will be frugal in later in life, that kind of thing. But we also see, again, social influence. We see that particularly related to social media but also kind of where you plant yourself in terms of your neighborhood, right? So that can have an undue effect on things like car purchases and things like that. And then again, your spouse, we know that millionaires tend to have spouses that are frugal. So even if they’re out maybe running a business or they’re the primary breadwinner, their spouse tends to be frugal. And we know that that can influence financial decisions in the future as well. So certainly influence can be a good thing, but it can also lead to some pretty poor spending decisions as well. And that’s really where we see the influence. We also see it in investing. So if you think about Gamestop and you see like how everyone kind of behaves when things get really exciting, we can be influenced into some of that. And we’ve seen that that can be a good thing, but it certainly can be a negative as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, we’ve all been told of the circle of influence, right, and those five or six or whatever the number is people that are around us and the impact that they can have. I think it’s no different here when it comes to money. Sarah, I’m curious, I have to know, when you mentioned the research with mom, you know, I’m thinking of my wife Jess really taking a huge role in raising our four boys, like why is that? You know, what is the connection there with the research of the mother and the spending habits that are passed on?

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, you know, it’s not only the spending habits but career influence as well. But I think it’s primarily because of the time spent. So the research that we’ve done primarily with those that are in like their 30s, 40s, you know, you think about that in terms of well, when were they children or adolescents? Well, it still was the case in most cases their mothers were the ones that were home. So I think that that’s why we see that influence more so than the father. But again, we know that if a mother was frugal, if she was showing good financial behaviors growing up and then I mentioned the career piece as well, it’s also the case that if you had — as a mom or as a parent, if you are helping your child understand their career options and what they might do in the future, that can also be a predictor of income and net worth in the future as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Sarah, one of the personal struggles that I have is around the concept of frugality. And you know, I think that there’s certainly a benefit in frugality of being able to make sure being intentional, we can allocate money towards our goals, we can assure we’re taking care of our future selves, but you know, one of the things I hear our planning team say often, which I really admire, is that it can’t just be about the 1s and 0s in the bank account. So if we do a great job of squirreling away $3 or $4 or $5 million but we’re miserable for 30 or 40 years, like so what? What’s the purpose of that? And so there’s this reconciliation of, you know, we’ve got to be frugal to take care of our future self, but I think we’ve also got to make sure we’re prioritizing and enjoying things along the way that drive us to some of the greatest happiness and value. And so I would just love to hear your personal thoughts as I know a lot of it points to the concept of frugality, like what are your thoughts on that reconciliation between taking care of your future self but also making sure we enjoy it along the way?

Sarah Fallaw: You know, I would say a couple things about that. First and foremost, I think you’re right that many of us aren’t really super excited about being in a spartan lifestyle for their entire life and then having all this money left over when they’re 80. That doesn’t sound great. I think that one of the things I’ve learned personally but then also learned through the research and the work that we do is that there are certain individuals, certain clients, certain people, that love being frugal, that sort of get a thrill out of kind of living that way. And then there are others of us that say, “Well, how long will I have to do this?” or “How can I make this as easy as possible?” So I’ll say a couple of things about that. No. 1, I think that as spouses, you have to make sure you’re on the same page, recognize and respect each other’s viewpoint on those things, make sure that there’s room for if the spouse isn’t really excited about being frugal all the time, make sure that there’s room throughout your relationship and throughout your lifetime to enjoy some of the fruits of your labor but then also have respect for the spouse that really does want to make sure that they have everything ready in the future and is OK camping out outside for their spring break and things like that. So that’s what we’ve sort of learned personally but then also, again, through the experiences of our advisors is to understand that about yourself early on, to communicate that, and then again to make sure that the plan that you put in place acknowledges both members of the household.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think this connects so well back to the money mindset concept and the money personality test and really understanding this individually as well as the planner working with the client and the importance of that. In Chapter 4, “Freedom to Consume,” you know, one of the things you talk about there, which I think is a timely topic right now given what the real estate market looks like, which is en fuego —

Sarah Fallaw: Crazy.

Tim Ulbrich: — is home buying. And you know, I think this is a time where I know I’ve talked with many pharmacists over the last six months that are like, ‘I’m looking to buy a home, but I’ve talked with one out in Washington recently, I’m expecting to put $100,000 over asking,’ just kind of is what it is in the market. So this feels like something in the time that might kind of get away from us in terms of where it fits in with the rest of our goals. So talk to us about the research and what you found in terms of the cost of homes that millionaires are living in.

Sarah Fallaw: Typically what we see is that millionaires are — they’re not living in $1 million homes typically. So the majority of them or many of them are living in homes that are less in terms of the value. So we found — I think it was that the current home value for most millionaires — again, this data was taken from 2016 — that it was $850,000, which was significantly higher than in 1996 when I think it was somewhere around $300,000. But you know, inflation, things like that. So I think that that’s one of the important factors. I think also, just from — and again, I’ll use the conscientiousness, you could say frugality, it’s a lot of different things, but I think that millionaires and those that are really savvy about money recognize the costs in moving, the costs in making those large-scale financial decisions. So you know, we have friends and family here in Atlanta, the market is the same as well, you know, where people are — the asking price is just the start. And what we’re seeing is that there’s sort of this excitement about change, excitement about potentially trying to time the market. And I think that millionaires tend to be a little more conservative, maybe like I said, conscientious, they understand the ramifications of making changes like that, and they aren’t necessarily looking for sort of the next big thing. But again, in general, millionaires are not necessarily living in $1 million houses. It’s not always the case.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, really interesting research in that chapter, not only on home buying, which I know is a topic of significance to our audience, but also on things like how are millionaires spending money on cars and clothing? And in terms of cars, what types of vehicles are they driving? New v. used? Luxury? Models, makes, and everything in between. So Chapter 5, you talk about strengths for building wealth. And one of the things that really stood out to me here is this concept of running your home like a business. So what do you mean here? And how can someone that’s listening start applying these principles?

Sarah Fallaw: So connecting back to my industrial psychology days here, I really viewed building wealth as a job, looked at sort of what it took, the complexities of it, everything from kind of dealing with the mundane tasks — or again, some folks might think these are fun — but mundane tasks of paying bills and maybe helping to do your income tax, depending on if you do it or if someone else does it, you still have to get everything together for it, those kinds of tasks as well as communicating with your spouse and communicating with the rest fo the family when it comes time to budgeting and spending and things like that. There are a whole host of things that make someone really great at the job, and then there are of course other things that can keep people from doing that job well. So in terms of strengths for building wealth and kind of thinking about personal finance as a job, it makes you kind of think about it differently in terms of OK, you know, this doesn’t seem so complex. I can think about the individual tasks I have to do and consider can I do this task well? Maybe my spouse can do this tax better than I can. We have that often happen with the advisors we work with who are using assessments to say OK, hey, you know what? You might be better at this than I am. And that would make more sense for you to take this part of it. So if you can look at the job of building wealth or of managing your personal finances well and look at it as a job, you can think about what it takes to do that job well. So that’s kind of how we certainly view it at DataPoints, that was sort of, again, in the last several months of my father’s life, kind of how we started talking about how I explained what we were doing at DataPoints, had to kind of walk him through all of that. But that’s certainly the way that we think it’s easiest, especially for those of us that don’t have a financial background to understand what it takes to actually build wealth.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that really resonates with me because I think that as many of our listeners know from personal experience, this topic can be very emotional at times. And at times, we all can make irrational decisions that often we look back and say, what in the world were we doing with that? And that’s just part of the learning part of the growth? But I think approaching it like a business, you know, helps make this as objective as possible but also helps with thinking about like systems and processes and automation and how do we make sure we can understand where our biases may be, where our shortcomings may be, and how can we build a plan and a system and have a coach and really surround ourselves to give ourself the best opportunity to succeed as possible. In Chapter 7, “Investing Resources,” a whole lot of things we could talk about here that could be a separate podcast in and of itself, but you know, generally speaking, what do you find from the research in terms of what makes someone a successful investor? What are the characteristics and behaviors that somebody will hold in terms of becoming a successful investor?

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, so that goes back to the personality conversation we were having earlier. There are a couple of different key things that we’ve found, one of them being that emotional side of investing, just like you said, the emotions related to money. What we found is that those that really tend to experience negative emotions more than others, so anxiety or fear, we call that volatility composure. That would be a lower score on that component. Those folks tend to have a harder time, especially when things are chaotic. So — and I’ll put myself in that camp a little bit. So we gravitate towards the news, we want to see what’s happening in the markets, we’re constantly looking at our investments. That kind of personality characteristic can lead us to making maybe not-so-great choices related to our investments, particularly, again, when markets are chaotic. Some of the other components include having a longer term perspective on investing. So for those of us who really view investing as a long-term play, it’s helping us build for the future, those investors tend to have more success than those that look at investing as something that needs to be managed on a daily or a minute-to-minute basis and view it more as maybe fun or entertainment versus something that’s a component of their long-term financial success. So those are a couple of the things. You know, confidence is also something important, particularly in terms of making decisions that align with a long-term strategy. So we don’t want to be overconfident. Those of us that tend to be overconfident are often the ones that are timing the market or trying to, at least, but instead having some level of confidence in our financial choices or investing choices can lead to investing success as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and these really resonate to me, Sarah, as a place where a coach can be incredibly helpful in the process because if you can be self-aware of these things and that individual is also aware of these, they can help challenge you appropriately, they can help you stay the course when you have tribulations in the market, which inevitably are going to happen, and I think certainly can be a valuable resource beyond investing but specifically here as we talk about investing. So we have just literally scratched the surface on so much of the rich content that is in “The Next Millionaire Next Door,” so I would highly encourage our listeners to pick up a copy of that book, which you can do pretty much anywhere that you can find a book, whether that’s online, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, so forth. And Sarah, we’re going to link, as I mentioned earlier, in the show notes to the personality assessment available at DataPoints.com/personality. Folks can take that assessment, download that report, work with their planner, provide that information as well. Beyond that, what is the best place that our listeners can go if they want to learn more about your work or if they want to connect with you?

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, so definitely on LinkedIn, Sarah Fallaw. I’m on Twitter @sarahfallaw, so all one word. They can also go to our website, just DataPoints.com. We have a blog. We write — generally our audience is financial professionals, but we also write at TheMillionaireNextDoor.com as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. Well, we will link to all of those in the show notes in terms of the social media and the websites as well as the personality data assessment. Sarah, again, thank you so much for your time. This is a special episode for us in Episode 200. And really excited for the opportunity to be able to interview you as a part of the celebration. So thank you very much.

Sarah Fallaw: Thanks for having me.

Current Student Loan Refinance Offers

Advertising Disclosure

[wptb id="15454" not found ]

Recent Posts

[pt_view id=”f651872qnv”]

Episode Summary

Key Points from the Episode

Episode Highlights

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Episode Summary

Key Points from the Episode

Episode Highlights

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Episode Summary

Key Points from the Episode

Episode Highlights

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Episode Summary

Key Points from the Episode

Episode Highlights

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Episode Summary

Key Points from the Episode

Episode Highlights

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Episode Summary

Key Points from the Episode

Episode Highlights

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Episode Summary

Key Points From the Episode

Episode Highlights

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Know Yourself, Know Your Money with New York Times Bestseller Rachel Cruze

About Today’s Guest

Summary

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

An Interview with Sarah Fallaw of The Next Millionaire Next Door

About Today’s Guest

Summary

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Subscribe to YFP Money Matters and get financial tips, money resources, and the latest podcast episode sent straight to your inbox every Friday morning!