YFP 379: Inspiring Bold Ideas: Career and Entrepreneurial Insights with Dr. Brooke Griffin


Dr. Brooke Griffin, founder of Bold Idea Group, shares her career journey in pharmacy academia to launching her own coaching business. 

This episode is brought to you by First Horizon.

Episode Summary

In this inspiring episode, Tim Ulbrich introduces Dr. Brooke Griffin, a coach, mentor, and founder of Bold Idea Group. Dr. Griffin shares her career journey in academia to eventually launching her own business, and opens up about the challenges and triumphs of her path, including the bold steps she took and valuable lessons she has learned along the way. 

This conversation is packed with practical wisdom for anyone seeking career fulfillment and personal growth. Whether you’re just starting your career or looking to make meaningful changes, Dr. Griffin’s journey and insights are sure to inspire you to take bold steps toward your own growth.

About Today’s Guest

Brooke Griffin, PharmD, BCACP is a Professor of Pharmacy Practice and Vice Chair of Clinical Services at Midwestern University College of Pharmacy, Downers Grove. With over 20 years of experience in various ambulatory care clinics, she has worked on several multidisciplinary teams and precepted hundreds of students and residents.

She is a Professional Coach in Life & Work and is passionate about offering career support through a thought-provoking and creative process. She is a coach and mentor through several pharmacy organizations and speaks nationally on various professional development topics, including the importance of coaching and mentoring, time management, and work/life integration.

In 2022 she launched Bold Idea Group with a mission to inspire bold ideas from within. Her motivational podcast, Today’s Bold Idea, offers a five minute inspirational boost to start your day. She is on this self-development journey alongside all of you and believes “every pharmacist deserves a coach.”

Key Points from the Episode

  • Introduction and Overview [0:00]
  • Upcoming YFP Webinar [0:33]
  • First Horizon Home Loan Information [1:24]
  • Dr. Brooke Griffin’s Career Journey [3:23]
  • Transition to Academia and Work-Life Integration [6:45]
  • Challenges and Opportunities in Academia [8:58]
  • Starting Bold Idea Group [23:12]
  • Balancing Academia and Entrepreneurship [36:48]
  • Lessons Learned and Reflections [38:30]
  • Conclusion and Contact Information [43:46]

Episode Highlights

“Out of all the clients I’ve worked with, it is very rarely about leaving their current job. It’s really this job crafting aspect of thinking about is it a task that needs to be done differently? Is it a relationship that needs to be looked at differently? Is it a mindset? And most of the time, it’s mindset. We always start with mindset.” – Dr. Brooke Griffin [25:32]

“Because we know that our academic careers are demanding, and we know that it’s not a nine to five job. There’s a lot of things you’re doing on nights and weekends to fulfill that role. And the first thing I always tell people is, whatever idea you have for a side hustle, it cannot feel burdensome because you will not last. It has to be energy giving.” – Dr. Brooke Griffin [33:35] 

“When you start a side hustle or start your entrepreneurial journey, you are learning a new language. You are taking baby steps. Everything seems new and everything seems scary, and being able to embrace that beginner’s mindset again is something that I really treasure.” – Dr. Brooke Griffin [43:08]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich  00:00

Hey everybody. Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, I welcome Dr. Brooke Griffin, who is a coach and mentor through several pharmacy organizations, and speaks nationally on various professional development topics, including the importance of coaching and mentoring, time management and work life integration. In 2022 she launched her business, Bold Idea Group, with a mission to inspire bold ideas from within. During the show, we discussed her career journey in pharmacy, why and how she started Bold Idea Group, and lessons that she has learned along the way, including advice that she would give her former self, both as it relates to her academic career and starting a business. Our next YFP webinar is just around the corner on October 7, at 9pm Eastern. This free webinar titled “Aliquot Investing: Small Investments in Big Real Estate Investing” will be led by YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast co-hosts Nate Hedrick and David Bright. This webinar will explore how syndications fit into a well rounded real estate investment strategy, especially for busy pharmacists who don’t have time to source, vet and manage real estate investments. In this webinar, David and Nate will be joined by Alex Cartwright, an economist who has also led syndication projects, including one in which both David and Nate have invested themselves. You can learn more about this webinar and register at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/syndication. 

Tim Ulbrich  01:28

All right, let’s hear from today’s sponsor, First Horizon, and then we’ll jump into my interview with Dr. Brooke Griffin. Does saving 20% for a down payment on a home feel like an uphill battle? It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high student loan debt, meaning that saving 20% for a down payment on a home may take years. For several years now, we’ve been partnering with First Horizon, who offers a professional home loan option, AKA a doctor or pharmacist loan that requires a 3% down payment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers, has no PMI and offers a 30 year fixed rate mortgage on home loans up to $766,550 in most areas. The pharmacist home loan is available in all states except Alaska and Hawaii, and can be used to purchase condos as well, however, rates may be higher and a condo review has to be completed. While I’ve personally worked with First Horizon before and had a great experience with Tony and his team, don’t just take it from me. Here’s what Emily from Prattville, Alabama had to say about her experience with First Horizon: “Clear communication and excellent guidance from Gail and Cindy throughout the entire process. I greatly appreciated the fact that everything was digital, because I’m allergic to paper! The ability to upload inside everything digitally made the process very efficient, which I prefer. This was by far the best mortgage process I have experienced. This is my seventh when counting refinances.” So to check out the requirements for First Horizon’s, pharmacist home loan and to start the pre-approval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. 

Tim Ulbrich  01:52

Brooke, welcome to the show.

Brooke Griffin  03:10

Thank you, Tim, thanks so much for having me.

Tim Ulbrich  03:13

So excited to have you here. This has been a while in the making. We ran across each other at ASHP mid year in the airport, flying home from California, and reconnected on what you’re working on, on the entrepreneurial sides of things. I said, Hey, we’ve got to have you on the podcast to share your entrepreneurial journey, and we’re going to do that, but before we get to that, tell us a little bit about your career journey, what led you into the profession, where’d you complete your pharmacy training and what your focus has been in your academic career?

Brooke Griffin  03:44

Yeah, sure. Well, thank you so much for having me. And I feel like our paths have crossed a couple of times, and even before I saw you in the airport, you were so generous with your time when we had a phone call when I was just starting this journey and thinking about how to build something while working in academia. So I very much followed in your footsteps. So thank you for going first, Tim. Or one of the first because you inspired me. You helped me a lot that day when we talked. So what got me into pharmacy? Well, I was a very confused high school student and wasn’t sure what I wanted to do, and I had a huge chip on my shoulder, and I was very stubborn, and I thought I, you know, didn’t want to go to school for very long because I was 17 and really stubborn, but I wanted to be able to support myself and have a service aspect to my job that it felt impactful. I feel like a lot of pharmacists say they wanted to help people. I think I was too selfish for that, but I knew I just wanted to have some sort of impact in my role. And so a friend of mine, her older sister, was going to pharmacy school, and back in the day before there were like, websites and virtual tours that you could go to, you would go to campuses and spend the night with an upperclassman to really get the feel. And so I just fell in love with this idea of going to school for five years and having this great degree and being in healthcare. And ended up going to Massachusetts College of Pharmacy and graduated with my PharmD, which ended up taking six years, and then added a residency to that. So my bold idea at age 17 with getting out in five years ended up being seven, but I fell in love with pharmacy, basically.

Tim Ulbrich  05:28

And that led to an academic career that you’ve been on for some time now. So tell us about your journey into academia. When did you know that was the right path for you, and what’s been your focus in that area?

Brooke Griffin  05:39

It was during APPYs. So I did an academic rotation with one of my favorite professors, Dr. Lynn Sylvia, and she really gave us a behind the scenes look at what faculty do, and it was so much more than what the student sees from the lecture hall. And she introduced us to kind of a three legged stool of teaching, service and scholarship, and all the organizations that faculty are part of, and how they really enrich their professional development continuously. And I had no idea that this was even an option for me after graduating with a PharmD and then completing a residency. So that really set me on my path. I also had a strong interest in ambulatory care, so that was also solidified during appys. So thankfully, I found a residency that combined both ambulatory care and a ton of teaching, and that was with Midwestern University. And then when I completed the residency, they offered me a job to stay on.

Tim Ulbrich  06:35

We didn’t know each other at the time, but very similar path. So I went down a residency in ambulatory care that had an academic component opened up my eyes to teaching scholarship, service, and that’s one of the things I loved about academia, is especially for those that like to create and build there are so many opportunities, whether it’s in the classroom, teaching, whether it’s at a clinical site teaching, whether it’s in scholarship teaching, even In service. Opportunities like there are a ton of ways to be entrepreneurial and build inside of an academic environment. And I think the flexibility that can be afforded there and the creativity that can be afforded there is really unlike many other roles. And you shared with me several weeks ago, and we had talked leading up to this podcast, that early in your academic career, you went to four days a week, a 0.8 full time position. Why did you decide to go down that path? What? What did that allow you to do? And how did that help pave the way for others to do that as well? 

Brooke Griffin  07:32

Yeah, it was 2009 after the birth of my first child. I had this calling on my heart to work part time, and I wanted to stay in my current role, and I felt so strongly about it that if it wasn’t going to be approved in my current role, I was seriously thinking about, what else could I do with with my career? So you know, all you can do is ask, and it was not an immediate yes. And it was a great lesson in that, you know, nothing is given, even if you are a hard worker and you feel like you’re putting incredible value in, day in and day out, your asks are sometimes not always granted. And it really surprised me thinking that it was, you know, 2009 2010, and I was really the first person to have this request. We had a couple of part time faculty who came in as part time to do some labs and workshops, and that was a little bit different. I was the first one to ask to be reduced. So it took about a year, Tim, for it to get approved through all of the appropriate channels. And if you’re in academia, you know, things take a very long time and a ton of non fillable PDFs. So you know, thankfully, I had a couple of at a mentor and my immediate supervisor, my chair, who who were supportive of me and kind of vouched for me and advocated for me and said, I know Brooke will be able to do this if she goes down to 0.8 and there were some conditions that I had to agree to, and I didn’t have Your Financial Pharmacist to lean on at the time to help me navigate that decision. So ultimately, I have no regrets. And really what it did is it gave me that work life integration that I was looking for. And for some of you who are listening, you may think, well, one day is that, was that really enough? And for me, it was. I know that there have been other faculty who’ve been able to go down to point six, and that’s the right balance for them. Point eight was the right balance for me. And so what it was able to do then is open up the door for several faculty behind me. And it wasn’t necessarily a lot easier, but it was somewhat easier. So there were two faculty that were able to put together a job share proposal. They each were point six to make up a 1.2 FTE that was really unique. And then we even published an article, Tim, that showed our productivity 18 months before going part time and 18 months going after part time. And who would have guessed it, our scholarship was way up 18 months after going part time. Because, you know, when you start a family and you have limited time in your day and then limited time on the job with being point eight or point six, you know how to get things done in the precious minutes of the day. And not that anyone is slacking off before, not to say that, but we were just able to really hunker down and fulfill our goals, regardless of the point 8 or point 6.

Tim Ulbrich  10:28

Yeah, forces and efficiency, right? That for sure. And if you’ll send us that article, we’d love to link that in the show notes. I think others would be interested in reading that, and the data helps, right? If people are thinking about making some of these proposals. I love what you shared that all you can do is ask, and even if the answer is no, doesn’t mean no forever, and it doesn’t mean that’s personal either. I mean, sometimes we’re just inside of structures and organizations where they may not be the flexibility or the creativity yet for these positions. I think we’re seeing an evolution in this space. Thankfully. I love the example you gave of two part time folks coming together for, you know, a hybrid role. And I think with the right leadership and the right conversations and the right approach, there can be a solution here, but doesn’t always mean it’s going to be on the first ask, right? And I think academic roles, the other one, I hear a lot about our VA roles – pharmacists who often will run up against barriers in proposing these types of things, but may get creative with two halftime positions, you know, replacing a full time clinical role. 

Brooke Griffin  11:29

Yeah, you’re right. And I think sometimes some leaders fear that I’m going to open the door, and the floodgates will open, and now everyone will want to request to go part time. And I can just share, from my own experience, that was not the case. There are obviously the majority of faculty who like working full time and prefer to work full time. Everyone has their own unique circumstance, and I’m thankful that they took a chance on me and that it’s been a successful model for us.

Tim Ulbrich  11:53

I have a question related to the passion that you have for your academic work, and I think this is very much going to connect to our discussion around the work that you’re doing and what you’ve been building at Bold Idea Group, your business. And the question relates to running towards something versus running away from something. I talk with a lot of pharmacists that perhaps may not be satisfied in their current role, and the desire for something else, very much as a running away from something versus running towards something. And two very different things, two very different things, from from an energy perspective, from a mindset perspective, from a motivation perspective. And one thing you shared with me several weeks ago leading up to this interview is that despite the business growth that you’ve had and the efforts that you don’t want to leave academia. That’s an area for you that has been fulfilling, that work has been able to really align with your passion, your interest, where you’re adding value to others. Tell us more about that. Where does that passion for your academic work and role come from? That it allows you to then build something else on the side as well, that you can really be moving towards that effort, not running away from what you’re currently doing.

Brooke Griffin  13:05

Yes, yeah, great question. And I talk with so many pharmacists who are going through the same thing, where they feel like they they’re running away from something. So I can definitely relate to that. I love academia. I love my faculty role. I love working with my colleagues in this space. I love working with students and the next generation of pharmacists. I love the autonomy and all of the flexibility that we talked about earlier that comes with this role, even if not all of my asks are my choice. I usually have flexibility to make it my own when I do a course or when I do a certain lecture or workshop, and for me, that’s enough. But it hasn’t been all roses. I mean, there was a time about five years ago when this all kind of started with my side business that I felt really stuck in academia. I reached all of the accolades that you could in academia, in terms of Associate Professor and full professor, I was tenure track with pretty much secured that I was going to achieve tenure, and I just hit a brick wall. And no one, no one really tells you that’s going to happen after you reach full professor. And I it was a big time of growth for me, because I didn’t realize how ambitious I was, and that when I didn’t see the next rung on that ladder that’s so well laid out in academia, that that made me really nervous, and when I realized I didn’t really want to ascend in traditional academic leadership roles, that was another sign that, Okay, what else is going to fulfill me here? I love my job. There’s certain aspects I didn’t like about it, and there were some days that I really liked my job, but the love was kind of missing. So I was feeling like I was on this constant seesaw, which made me feel stuck. And that’s when I sought out my first coach and really started asking myself some really deep, insightful, hard questions. Like, what do you want this next chapter of your career to look like? Where is your passion going to come from? And we have a word for that now, and that’s job crafting. I didn’t have that term when I was going through this on my own. I’ve kind of scrapped it together by listening to a ton of podcasts and reading a bunch of books and collecting questions and journaling at home, some of it facilitated by a coach, which was really helpful. So now I look at this time in my career where I am building something on the side that brings me immense joy, and sometimes the day job doesn’t provide all of that joy that it once did. That’s okay. I have this business on the side which is doing it for me, but there are certainly aspects about the job that I absolutely love, and I am not ready to to leave that yet. 

Tim Ulbrich  15:48

It’s interesting as you’re sharing about being stuck, you know, you’re taking back, me back and my own academic journey. And one of the things that you share that really resonates with me and maybe many listeners as well, is that often we don’t realize that there’s some of these external motivations here. We’re talking about promotion and tenure, right? Where, you know, said or unsaid in the system, we’re kind of trained to be like that’s the definition of success, right? And you see this language used all over the place, in different types of books or resources. This is not a pharmacist, academic or even a pharmacy type of thing. What we’re talking about is climbing a first mountain climbing a second mountain type of discussion. And I think when you check off those boxes, which are a necessary part of the process, they have value. And getting to that point, I think where you realize like, Hey, I’ve checked those boxes, those are all external affirmations that may or may not always align internally. And what I hear you sharing is you’re beginning to build the business, and have been building the business is there’s very much an inside out type of motivation of what you’re building and how you’re serving and helping others, and that is a whole different level of achievement, success, whatever you want to call it. You know, joy is a word that I heard, and obviously the work that you’re doing to serve others as well. So I just I love how you painted that picture. Really beautiful.

Brooke Griffin  17:07

Yeah, thank you. I think you hit the nail on the head. When I was feeling stuck and relying on some of those external validations for success, I couldn’t really name my strengths and the values that I brought to the table, and it was really hard for me to see how I was adding value every day to the job, and I realized that this is going to be an internal job to figure this out, and that’s when I made a commitment to myself that I’m going to invest in myself and figure this out. And I wouldn’t be successful in as a business owner today if I didn’t do that work, if I didn’t have such a strong idea of who I am and how I’m showing up, and what value I bring and what my strengths are, but that’s a lot of hard work of self discovery to get there, and some of us choose to stay in the discomfort and because, you know the future is uncertain, and you know we’re not sure what this is going to uncover, but I was willing to take that risk because I knew I wanted this next chapter to be fulfilling. The other thing that was really helpful to me was there was, there’s this podcast called Disrupt Yourself with Whitney Johnson. She’s got this concept of an S curve, and she says that when you reach mastery and anything that you do, you’re at the top of the S curve, and you’re you’re ready to launch, you’re ready to jump onto something new, because as humans, we need to get to the bottom of the next S curve to learn something new, to gain mastery in something and we’re constantly doing this throughout our careers. So that was really insightful for me to see. Okay, I’m at the top of my S curve. I’m ready to learn something new. I’m ready for a new challenge, and but it’s not going to be leaving my job and finding a new job. It’s going to be finding a passion project that aligns so well with my strengths and my values, and now I get to use those tools in the day job, and I get to use those tools with my business.

Tim Ulbrich  18:48

Yeah, Brooke, it sounds like as you were going through your own journey, as you described the S curve, it really forced some deep reflection questions that are big, scary questions, who am I? Who am I? What do I want? And this is why I think these earlier stages are so important that we shouldn’t…the goal shouldn’t be to avoid some of these walls we, you know, find ourselves butting up against, and some of these bigger questions that come because it’s through these moments that I think we’re afforded the opportunity for some of the self discovery. And I don’t think this ends either which is, which is beautiful, very beautiful. 

Brooke Griffin  19:24

No, you’re you’re just quickly, you’re sort of reminded me of something that there, you know during this time that I felt really stuck. I couldn’t really identify what made something a good day or what made something a bad day. I knew that I would leave with certain feelings, and so what I kind of forced myself to do was to just jot down a couple of notes at the end of each day, like what really lit me up today and what really brought my energy down. And this quick exercise, even just after a few weeks, I started to see some patterns, Tim, that it was always these types of activities that lit me up, and it was always these one or two people that really brought my energy down. So that helped me find some lanes to stay in. In terms of I’m going to push myself forward, if I’m going to do something outside of work, if I’m going to capitalize on my strengths, it’s in these areas that would be a great start.

Tim Ulbrich  20:16

And I think that’s great advice for our listeners that may be feeling some of that restlessness. Sometimes this presents as chronic irritability, chronic anger, right at this undertone type of level. But like, what’s behind that? And just journaling on it, getting curious. I love what you shared about like, what are those activities? What are the moments of the day where you feel like, regardless of time spent, you feel like it’s energy filling, bucket filling. And what are those moments and times of the day, regardless of time spent where you’re like, oh my gosh, if I had to do that for 15 more minutes, I’m gonna go crazy, right? And not to say we’re gonna find ourselves in roles that those things necessarily go away. I mean, I can even speak as making that transition from, you know, what was the dream right into owning my own business? Like, there are real challenges, there are highs, there’s lows – this is part of life. But I think being equipped with some of those things where it’s like, Hey, these are the areas that I really feel like I’m in that zone of genius, and I really can contribute and align the time I’m spending, the energy I have, with the efforts that hopefully can come out of that. I want to ask you, I think many pharmacists, and I’ll put myself in this category, as I started the business back in 2015 really struggle with the idea of making an investment in themselves in the form of something like hiring a coach. You mentioned how integral that was in your own journey, and I think there’s several factors. It’s an investment of time, it’s an investment of money, and it’s raising your hand to say, I really want to look internally and put that mirror up, right and get into some of the uncomfortable space. So how were you able to get over that hump to say that I am going to make an investment of time, of money, I am going to make this investment of self-discovery without necessarily knowing where that was going to go on the other end?

Brooke Griffin  21:59

Yeah, great question. And I think this is something that a lot of people do face, because it’s not only time, it’s money, it’s energy you have. You don’t want to pay for something, and kind of just put 50% in. So for me, it really was kind of hitting rock bottom in a professional feeling way, not in a mental health space kind of way, but in a and I don’t know where else to go. I had wonderful mentors, Tim, my entire career, I’ve been so blessed with wonderful mentors, and there was one who really just saw me for me, and could cheer me on with my triumphs, and could listen to me cry and not think I was, you know, a mess. And we got to a point where our meetings became more social. I think I just ran out of questions to ask. I didn’t know what questions to ask. And as a mentor, she wasn’t in a position where she could help me, because she’d never been there before, which that’s how mentors help us. They’ve been to where we aspire to go. So that was a big aha moment for me, that I’m going to need a different kind of career support. I’ve never had a coach before. I didn’t know how coaches could help pharmacists, but it was something I was just willing to try. I work with a lot of faculty, Tim, and for those of you who aren’t academia, a lot of faculty positions have professional development funds that the department allows you to use for books or conferences or travel. So I’ve worked with a lot of faculty who are able to use some of those funds to for that initial investment. So for anyone out there who’s considering it, that’s just something to keep in mind that we can kind of think outside of the box about how we can fund something like this. 

Tim Ulbrich  23:35

Yeah, and my personal experiences. I mean, of course, if we can get somebody to help with the bill, that’s great. My personal experiences in us, investing in resources that have helped us as we’ve grown the business, as well as our clients, investing in us is that there’s an important step of intentionality that comes when you have skin in the game. I mean, this is night and day. I know we’ve all been told this, but it really is true that, and to be clear, I have invested in coaching services that have been a clear ROI, and I have invested in other coaching services that I look back on, that they had a great learning experience, and I didn’t know all the things going into it, but it wasn’t necessarily a positive ROI, and that’s going to happen, you know, especially as you continue to make this an area priority. But when you have some skin of the game, you come with a different mindset. That’s just a matter of fact, I can tell you that over and over again from clients that we’ve worked with, whether it’s investing or student loan repayment, any part of the financial plan, when you are making that investment of time and money, you come ready, and I think that very much is going to help yield some of the results. So with that in mind, let’s talk about your business and offering the Bold Idea Group. We’re going to link to the website in the show notes. What is the Bold Idea Group? Give us a 60 commercial about the problem you’re solving and how you’re solving that problem. 

Brooke Griffin  24:53

I help pharmacists who are feeling stuck in their careers who need a different kind of career support. So I offer coaching, consulting and speaking for organizations and individuals who want something different, want a positive change in their career, and they’re not sure of the how, and through the coaching process, and through this aspect of curiosity and asking really powerful questions, and this investment of time and energy and space and holding space for people, we really figure it out, whether it’s, you know, work, life, integration, improvements, a different area of fulfillment, focusing on a specific aspect of your career. I’ll tell you, Tim, out of all the clients I’ve worked with, it is very rarely leaving their current job. It’s really this job crafting aspect of thinking about is it a task that needs to be done differently? Is it a relationship that needs to be looked at differently? Is it a mindset? And most of the time, it’s it’s mindset, we always start with mindset.

Tim Ulbrich  25:55

I mean, sometimes it’s a difficult conversation that we need to have, that we’ve been avoiding, that unlocks things going forward, right? Sometimes it’s a different perspective we’re bringing into the work culture environment. And I don’t know for some people if they hear that and they’re like, ah, darn it, like I was hoping that this would help me go, you know, to something else. But I find that very interesting, because I think it’s easy, and I’ve been in these moments, it’s easy where if we feel stuck, if we feel overwhelmed, confused, frustrated, we’re having those difficulties in the positions the grass always look greener on the other side. And I think with experience, you know, I’ve come to realize, as I alluded to a little bit ago, that there’s always challenges that’s just a part of life, and it’s our mindset of how we’re approaching those. And if we come at it with a mindset, mentality of, hey, difficult things are going to happen today or this week or this month in this season of life that’s a part of life. How do I see those, learn from those things and continue to move forward? But that doesn’t surprise me, and actually excites me that often, it’s almost helping people get unstuck in their current environments, right?

Brooke Griffin  26:59

Absolutely. Even just speaking for myself, when I started working with a coach, everything around me started changing, Tim. My, you know, definitely my approach to work, how I showed up at work, but the relationship started changing. And then I thought, wow, okay, I’m changing. I’m changing, and that’s what’s causing all of these other things to change. And it was just a total positive, level up that I needed to fuel this next chapter of my career.

Tim Ulbrich  27:30

And I would argue, Brooke, that’s richer change, right, because that’s inside out change, not outside in. I mean, we can change environments, yeah, and that may lead to some internal change, but we’re obviously changing things outside of our environment, and that may be the right move as well. But that inside out change, when you go through that self discovery, you look at the mindset, you look at, hey, how am I showing up every day? That’s going to transcend any environment you’re in which is, which is really exciting.

Brooke Griffin  27:56

Absolutely, I had, I tell the story that there was a colleague at work who I was having a lot of friction with, and I realized that I had some responsibility in that, but I just didn’t figure out what was going on, like, why there was all this friction, and our relationship has totally transformed. But, you know, we never went to couples counseling. You know, it was just I showed up differently. I was able to just approach the situation totally differently.

Tim Ulbrich  28:20

Although, to be fair, we could use a version of couples counseling in academia, right. 

Brooke Griffin  28:24

Somebody start that business, please!

Tim Ulbrich  28:26

One of the things I like to talk through with people that have built something is, where did it start? And where is it today? And we know the evolution’s not over. Of course, you’re going to continue to evolve and tweak as you find out what’s having an impact and what meets your needs as well. But for people that are thinking of an idea that maybe they have or something they want to start, whether it’s going to generate revenue or not, I think it can be very overwhelming to see someone’s current version without understanding how it’s evolved. And more often than not, it’s evolved over time, right? And it went from idea to version one to version two, version 3, 4, 5, 6 and to the current state. And there’s been things that have worked, things that haven’t worked. And the more we share that, I think it’s a breath of fresh air to say like, Brooke doesn’t have it all figured out. Tim doesn’t have it all figured out, like I’m learning. And some things work daily. Some things don’t work daily. So how does the current version look different from where you started? What has this evolution looked like in the business? 

Brooke Griffin  29:30

Great question. One of my favorite quotes by Mel Robbins is “Confidence is the willingness to try.” That it doesn’t come after you get success or after you have so many wins. Like confidence comes from trying something and realizing you’re going to get back up and try something again. And that really fueled me in the beginning, when I started thinking about, okay, what are my strengths? What are my values? What could I offer this world? Where do I want to have impact? When do I want to have impact? I started with a free group coaching program. And my quote business name at the time, even though it wasn’t an established business, was 21st Century PharmD, and it started as a weekly blog, and I had an Instagram account, and I made my own website from scratch. And I’m not a tech person, so I’m super proud of that experience. And it looked like a non tech person created a website, and the students told me that the colors hurt their eyes. I mean, it was just an awful version of a website, but I was so proud to put this thing together and publish my blog there weekly, and I started a little Facebook group where people could get personal and professional development. I thought in the beginning, like you said, the evolvement, I thought this was going to be targeted towards students, personal and professional development for students, the things you’d get outside of the classroom. And then I offered a group coaching program for students and for faculty for free, that was in 2020 and told them that I’m going to ask you for your feedback on what worked well here, and I’m also going to use this to figure out, do I like coaching? Do I like facilitating this group, and the answers to both those questions were yes, yes, people liked it, and yes, I liked it. And then working with another coach, decided, okay, what’s really next for me? And all signs were pointing to get coach training. So in 2021 I completed my coaching certification, and then in 2022 rebranded as Bold Idea Group, because I realized that all of this content I was putting out there through the Facebook group and through the weekly blogs, my peers were resonating with the content, sometimes even more than the students who hadn’t been in the workforce yet. I was really speaking to this mid career pharmacist and the mid career faculty member who just didn’t know where to go after reaching some success, but all of a sudden, felt stuck for a variety of reasons. So I rebranded in 2022 to be Bold Idea Group. And yeah, so that’s where we are today, offering group coaching and one on one coaching and more speaking engagements.

Tim Ulbrich  31:56

And I love the rebrand, but I also love the initial version for all the reasons you mentioned, right? I what I hear there is you’re sharing is that you are willing to try, you’re willing to test, your you were willing to tinker and evolve and change, and you were listening to what your audience was saying. That was a value to them. And those are some of the best businesses to build. And I think that, you know, if we think about this like an iceberg, right? Often, the first $1000, $10,000 $100,000 that a business will earn, that’s the tip of the iceberg. Oh, and by the way, what you actually see often, if you translated that to an hourly wage of time invested it took to get there, like maybe minimum wage at best, right? But all underneath the water is all of these things behind the scenes that nobody sees, and that’s why I say it’s so important when people are building something, there has to be an alignment with a very strong why and purpose with a problem you’re trying to solve, because it will grind you down otherwise. But back to what we were just talking about previously, of time that you spend that can be bucket filling energy, filling time that you spend that may be not when you’re building something that you really feel like is adding value, is providing transformation to people. I don’t want to speak for you, but I’m guessing you could write several hours on something, and there’s energy that’s coming from that, because you can see the impact that it can have. Certainly that doesn’t mitigate that. It’s hard. It takes time. There’s other priorities of how you could be spending your time, but I love to hear the evolution of that; that’s really great, 

Brooke Griffin  33:25

Yes. You know, maybe we’ll talk about this a little bit too, but a lot of faculty and pharmacists ask me about what it’s like to have a side hustle, or where do you find the time, or where do you find the energy? Because we know that our academic careers are demanding, and we know that it’s not a nine to five job. There’s a lot of things you’re doing on nights and weekends to fulfill that role. And what I the first thing I always tell people is, whatever idea you have for a side hustle, it cannot feel burdensome. Yep, because you will, it will not last. It has to be energy giving. 

Tim Ulbrich  33:56

I remember you took me right back Brooke, when I’ve got four boys now, 13 down to five, but when I started YFP, my oldest was four, my second was two, and we were just about ready to have my third. I remember them being very, very young, and late nights writing. Late nights doing webinar. But it never felt like work. It really didn’t. And, you know, it was that constant feeling of, you know, providing value, helping people along in their own journey, and just the incredible relationships that have been formed, the amount of learning I’ve been able to do from talking with individuals such as yourself. So yeah, great wisdom there, and what you’re sharing. And speaking of trying, you recently started a podcast! Today’s Bold Idea: Mindset, Motivation and Coaching for Pharmacists. We’ll link to that podcast in the show notes. What was the thought behind starting a podcast? I think that’s something that a lot of people struggle with, is I only have so much time. You know, should I be focused on social media? Should I be focused on YouTube? Should I do a podcast? What led you down that path?

Brooke Griffin  35:02

So I mentioned before that when I first started 21st century PharmD, I had a weekly blog, and I really loved that weekly blog, and I made a promise to myself, I was going to do it weekly for 52 weeks. And I did. I accomplished that goal, and then I took time off to get coaching certification, and when I rebranded Bold Idea Group, I really wanted to think about what is going to be my venue, what is going to be my forum, what is going to be my way of getting my message out there? And I realized that I wanted to try something different than blogging, and I had this whisper of starting a podcast. I did have a podcast very briefly with 21st Century PharmD, but it was all interview style. So my idea for this podcast was to produce something positive and short that someone could listen to every day before they got out of their car and walked in that door, or in between meetings when they just felt completely like helpless and hopeless. I actually started a podcast, Tim, that I was looking for –  a short, brief, positivity boost that came from someone who kind of understood this field. And there are lots of podcasts out there, as you know, I couldn’t find one that was exactly what I was looking for. And I had this, I had this joy that was coming from posting daily in my Facebook group. And I thought, Well, if that’s bringing me so much joy, I wonder what it would be like to produce it in more of an audio format. And again, let’s just try this. Let’s just throw some spaghetti on the wall and see what happens. And it’s been, it’s been really, really incredible, Tim, just I am getting messages from community pharmacists who have been a community pharmacist for 30 years, you know, telling me that they’re thankful that they’re able to listen to this, and I’m thankful that I’m a part of their day. I mean, they have so much on their plate and so much pressure. Yes, it’s a complete honor. And so we’ll see where it goes. And I’m not quite at daily yet, and I’m at three days a week, but I’m working my way there. So I also tell myself, and I say this on the podcast, is that I am taking imperfect action every day, and that’s looks. That’s a three day a week podcast when you told yourself you would produce daily. So I’m getting there.

Tim Ulbrich  37:12

I love the short form aspect of it. I was looking at your show, stream, 3, 5, 7, 9, minutes, right? Very short form content.  Inspirational. It’s vulnerable, it’s real. So I love what you’re doing there. Keep going, keep building. Thanks. I love the commitment to you know, whether it’s writing or to this, it’s so important. Because I think when you have a new idea, there’s inevitably an energy and a surge that comes you’re getting started, that eventually you will hit a point, and no matter what you’re building, anyone’s building that you’re like, What am I doing? Is this worth my time? And to really fight through that and make a commitment to yourself that I’m going to do this for a certain period of time and then reassess, you know, from there. 

Brooke Griffin  37:56

That’s right, yes, and and nothing’s a failure. You know? It’s all, it’s all building something. 

Tim Ulbrich  38:02

I do want to give a shout out here, if any pharmacist is listening, not only to check out Brooke’s show, we’ll link to that in show note, but if any pharmacist is listening that is thinking about starting their own podcast, Kim Newlove is a fantastic resource. Kim is the founder of the Pharmacist Voice, a fellow Ohioan, has some great resources available to pharmacists that are thinking of starting their own podcast. And I just love the passion, the energy she has, the way she wants to serve and help others. So we’ll link to some of Kim’s resources as well in the show notes. Brooke, let’s wrap up by doing some reflection backwards, first on your academic career, and then we’ll do it on your entrepreneurial career. As it relates your academic career, what are some key lessons that you’ve learned along the way? What would you tell your early career academic self?

Brooke Griffin  38:54

Another one of my favorite quotes is, “Be yourself. Everyone else is taken.” by Oscar Wilde. And in academia, maybe it’s like this and other pharmacy niches, there’s a very there’s very much a cookie cutter approach to how we do our work, down to how many lecture hours somebody has, how many APPY students somebody takes, the number of courses people are involved in. There’s a model for workload equity that people kind of look the same and do the same things, and even in order to get promoted, the same types of activities are encouraged. It’s hard to think outside of the box, and it’s hard to be that person in academia, and I found myself a square peg trying to fit herself into a round hole in many aspects, in committee meetings, in courses I was involved in in bold ideas that I had that just seemed so completely out of the box that people made it seem like it was unrealistic and unattainable. So I think I would tell myself that you being unique. And bringing your ideas to the table is valuable, and sometimes it takes just finding the right ears and the right support to get there. So if you don’t have an internal mentor, if you don’t see anyone at your institution who kind of gets you, there are so many opportunities to find mentorship in external organizations. Almost every pharmacy org has a mentorship program. So I would say, keep finding to find that career support so that you don’t lose any aspect of your uniqueness.

Tim Ulbrich  40:32

I love that, and it reminds me, Brooke of the visual that came to mind as you’re sharing is that we all, we all have an internal flame that sometimes loses its fire over time, and I think having others around us, mentors, community, colleagues, friends, spouses, whatever that you know, can really help us identify, see that and ignite. Help us reignite that flame is so important. It also reminded me one of my favorite quotes that I listen to every day as a part of a morning affirmation from Rabbi Zusa. It says, “In the coming world, they will not ask me, why were you not Moses? They will ask me, why were you not Zusa?” Goes back to those questions, right? Who are you? What do you want? And what does that? What does that look like? How about on the entrepreneurial side, obviously, more near term journey that you’ve been on. But what are a couple of lessons that you’ve learned thus far along your entrepreneurial journey?

Brooke Griffin  41:27

When I started blogging, and I hit publish on that for the very first time, and I had lived in this academic world for my entire career, when even the good ideas take 18 months to see implementation, and you need a lot of approvals to get things done, to have an idea, to write about it and to hit click and publish and have it go out on social media was incredibly freeing, and as nervous and as scared as I was, and even that very first blog hit some, you know, little controversy that I wasn’t expecting. And I almost shut down the whole thing, but I think I was really nervous about what my colleagues might say the next Monday. Like, What is everyone gonna say about Brooke putting her ideas out there in the world, and now she’s got a blog, and who does she think she is? I probably can count on one hand how many people have asked me about that blog out of all the people that I work with. I think people are assuming that everybody’s kind of watching each other. But what the experts say is true is that everyone is just so laser focused in their own lane that it just really reinforces that we have to do what feels good to us, as long as we’re not harming anybody or saying anything offensive. That you know, if that’s the impact you want to have on the world, it really doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks. I think the other thing, the other big lesson that I had, was being able to embrace the beginner’s mindset. When you’re in academia for so long, you know how to do a lecture. You know how to run a course. You know how to have APPY students. You know how to run a committee. When you start a side hustle or start your entrepreneurial journey, you are learning a new language. You are taking baby steps. You everything seems new and everything seems scary, and being able to embrace that beginner’s mindset again, is something that I really treasure. And there was someone I follow, and she said something like, you’ll never be at this point in your entrepreneurial journey again. This beginning stage is so beautiful, and there’s so much growth that happens. You know, from zero to your first 100k that’s just so amazing. You’ll never be here again, so cherish all of the ups and downs and the good and the bad that comes during this time.

Tim Ulbrich  43:46

A lot of wisdom there, and I think the holding the space to allow for the conflicting emotions as you were talking, it reminded me of like the excitement and anticipation that was present with the fear. Both were there. And you even talked about, you didn’t use the words inner critic, but when you were sharing of your own journey and publishing that first blog post, like, pay attention to those voices. I’m not speaking to Brooke. I’m speaking, you know, more broadly. Like, well, that’s interesting. Like, who is that? What are they saying? Where does that come from? And, you know, I think just an awareness and a curiosity to those will really start to unlock and that is one of the most beautiful things of this journey. I always say, second to parenting my four boys, entrepreneurship is challenged me to grow and stretch in ways I could have never imagined. And those have been painful at times, and they’ve been beautiful at times. And I wouldn’t change it for anything, but I think that holding the space for some of that inner awareness as you’re going through not only building whatever you’re building, but also what is the transformation that’s happening inside as well. 

Brooke Griffin  44:56

Well said. 

Tim Ulbrich  44:57

As we wrap up, what is the best place that our listeners can go to connect with you and learn more the about the work that you’re doing. 

Brooke Griffin  45:04

Oh, thank you, Tim. For any listeners who are on Facebook, I have a Facebook group called Bold Idea Group. I post every day at 5am something inspirational, motivational. I’m also publishing the podcast called Today’s Bold Idea three days a week right now, working myself up to daily. My website is boldideagroup.com, and I’ve been fortunate enough to be invited to a couple of colleges of pharmacy and other organizations to even just present some of these ideas about job crafting, speaking to a larger audience. For those of you who aren’t necessarily ready for one on one coaching or group coaching.

Tim Ulbrich  45:40

Awesome. We will link to all those in the show notes, the website, the podcast page, the Facebook group, so that folks can go in and learn more and connect with you. So Brooke, this has been amazing. Speaking of energy filling, it has been that for me. So thank you so much for taking time to come on the show and share your journey with our listeners.

Brooke Griffin  45:58

Thank you so much. Tim, I had a great time.

Tim Ulbrich  46:02

Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists in the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% down payment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers and has no PMI on a 30-year fixed rate mortgage. To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, and to get started with the pre-approval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com, /home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. 

Tim Ulbrich  46:45

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyzes expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer, Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 375: Breaking New Ground: Emmanuel Ayanjoke’s Vision for Altev Community Pharmacy


Tim Ulbrich interviews Emmanuel Ayanjoke, PharmD, on his journey to opening an independent pharmacy in Avondale, tackling challenges with vision, risk-taking, and community care.

This episode is brought to you by First Horizon.

Episode Summary

In this inspiring episode, Tim Ulbrich interviews Emmanuel Ayanjoke, R.Ph, PharmD, MBA, a third-generation pharmacist with a passion for community care. Emmanuel shares his remarkable journey to opening an independent pharmacy in Avondale, Cincinnati. Driven by a desire to make a difference, he pursued a pain management and palliative care fellowship, gaining invaluable entrepreneurial experience along the way. Through the support of Project Oasis, a McKesson initiative aimed at addressing pharmacy deserts, Emmanuel was able to turn his vision into reality.

Despite facing significant financial challenges, including high student loan debt, Emmanuel underscores the importance of calculated risk-taking and the power of strong relationships. Emmanuel offers insights into the future of independent pharmacy and how he has strategically aligned his personal and business financial plans to achieve his goals. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the evolving landscape of independent pharmacy and the bold steps required to succeed.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Emmanuel (Manny) Ayanjoke, R.Ph, PharmD, MBA is the proud owner of Altev Community Pharmacy in Cincinnati, Ohio. A graduate of University of Toledo College of Pharmacy, Dr. Manny has spent over 5 years serving various communities as a dedicated pharmacist. Before opening Altev, he worked at Ziks Family Pharmacy, honing his skills, and understanding the vital role of pharmacists in community health. His work as a clinical pharmacist at Ziks had notable success and he was featured as a keynote panelist at the American Pharmacist Association (APhA) 2022 conference. Alongside his clinical role at ZIKS Family Pharmacy, Dr Manny completed a fellowship in pain management and palliative care fellow at Cedarville University where he engaged in teaching, research, patient care, as well as creation of innovative ways to advance pharmacy practice.

Key Points from the Episode

  • Opening Remarks and Sponsor Introduction [0:00]
  • Emmanuel’s Career Path and Family Background [2:28]
  • Pursuing a Fellowship and Entrepreneurial Vision [4:58]
  • The Decision to Open a Pharmacy [10:45]
  • Challenges and Support in Opening a Pharmacy [19:51]
  • Intersection of Personal and Business Finances [27:30]

Episode Highlights

“I wanted to pursue something that allowed me to be an entrepreneur in some way; I knew it had to be something that would leverage my school as a pharmacist, and with my experience, I was like, well, in every other you know, area of pharmacy practice, they’re already really the people that are dominating. I want to sort of create my own niche.” – Dr. Emmanuel Ayanjoke [5:53]

“I wanted to sort of carve out a niche for myself in pain management, to be able to be an entrepreneur, be a consultant, pharmacist, and do all these things until the point that I was able to actually stop my pharmacy so it was still in line with my overall vision of being an entrepreneur and being able to self, direct, direct my destiny, and not, you know, be beholden to a paycheck.” – Dr. Emmanuel Ayanjoke [6:24]

“I think your biggest asset to success, for anyone, any successful person, is people.” – Dr. Emmanuel Ayanjoke [20:43]

“I’m not saying this because I’m anywhere yet, but I’m saying this because I’ve seen other people, and I learned from a lot of people, but what I found is people that tend to be successful often go against the grain, go against what the crowd typically does.” – Dr. Emmanuel Ayanjoke [23:17]

“My vision and the way I see things and my general approach to life and business is sort of like planting trees, right? And what I mean by that is, yes, you might not have the perfect nutrients for a tree that’s several feet high, but you can at least plant something for now. And that that is kind of has been my approach to everything. You might not feel like you have the financial capacity to do certain things, it’s still important to plant the tree. – Dr. Emmanuel Ayanjoke [28:37]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich  00:00

Hey everybody. Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, I sit down with Emmanuel Ayanjoke to discuss his decision to open an independent pharmacy as a new practitioner, his perspective on the future of independent pharmacy and the intersection of his personal and business financial plans. Let’s hear a note from today’s sponsor, First Horizon, and then we’ll jump into my interview with the Emmanuel. 

Tim Ulbrich  00:29

Does saving 20% for a down payment on a home feel like an uphill battle? It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high student loan debt, meaning that saving 20% for a down payment on a home may take years. For several years now, we’ve been partnering with First Horizon, who offers a professional home loan option, AKA a doctor or pharmacist loan that requires a 3% down payment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers, has no PMI and offers a 30 year fixed rate mortgage on home loans up to $766,550 in most areas. The pharmacist home loan is available in all states except Alaska and Hawaii, and can be used to purchase condos as well, however, rates may be higher and a condo review has to be completed. While I’ve personally worked with First Horizon before and had a great experience with Tony and his team, don’t just take it from me. Here’s what Molly from New Berlin, Wisconsin, had to say about her experience with First Horizon: “The communication and always being available to talk over the phone was great for us. It also made an impact getting an initial overview and education on the process from Gail. Being able to submit everything electronically made it more efficient.” So if you want to check out the requirements for pharmacists Home Loan from First Horizon and to start the pre-approval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist./home-loan.harmacist.com/home-loan.

Tim Ulbrich  01:58

Emmanuel, welcome to the show.

Emmanuel Ayanjoke  02:00

Thank you, Tim. I’m delighted to be here today.

Tim Ulbrich  02:03

Me as well, and I’m looking forward to the opportunity to talk to you about your experiences opening up in independent pharmacy. We crossed paths through the Ohio pharmacy circles over the past few years, and once you announced the grand opening of your store, Altev Community Pharmacy and the Avondale, Cincinnati area, I reached out to invite you on the show so we can learn more about your entrepreneurial journey. And before we get into that, let’s talk about your career path into pharmacy, Emmanuel, what led you into the profession and to the University of Toledo, where you completed your PharmD in 2020 

Emmanuel Ayanjoke  02:38

Absolutely. So I, you know, I’m Nigerian. Grew up in Nigeria. That was born in Nigeria, till I was I grew up left Niger when I was about 15 years old, and I was fortunate enough to grow up in the family of that pharmacy is a thing. So my dad was a pharmacist and a pharmacy owner, and his dad was a pharmacy, pharmacy owner. Now, back then, they refer to them as chemists, because this was way back then in the days, but they were, you know, I come from a long line of pharmacists, and I would never forget when I was about seven years old, because I think that’s the age where everyone kind of starts to pick up on things. And, you know, observe our parents doing different things, and I remember so vividly, so many moments where patients will just come in. And, you know, one of the things I always like to say is pharmacists. Pharmacy in Niger is very different than here. Pharmacy is much more front line of healthcare. You went to the pharmacy first before going to the doctor, they actually the pharmacist referred you to the doctor in things that were too complex to be handled in outpatient. So I grew up in that setting, seeing my dad as a pharmacist, business owner, taking care of his family, but also taking care of the community. And people just come into the pharmacy asking questions, having their needs, health needs met. You know, it was a different way to impact people’s lives, and that resonated with me very deeply. I, you know, grew up in that environment that I knew I wanted to direct my own destiny and own a business. And what dawned on me over the years is what’s more important in owning businesses, doing something that impacts lives. So put it short, I’ve always been in pharmacy. I grew up in a pharmacy, and I didn’t see myself doing anything else, because that was what was just in front of me. 

Tim Ulbrich  04:33

So third generation chemist, then, right?

Emmanuel Ayanjoke  04:36

 Yes.

Tim Ulbrich  04:38

So after you finished your PharmD at the University of Toledo, you went on to pursue a pain management and palliative care fellowship. And some might be looking at that and saying, All right, so you grew up in a pharmacy environment, independent ownership, owning your own business. And this seems like a different type of an opportunity. So tell us more about the pursuit of that fellowship, and what were some of the experiences and things that you took away from that?

Emmanuel Ayanjoke  05:04

Yeah, so the reason why I went to pursue a fellowship was at the time when I was in Toledo, I was an intern, and I because I knew I wanted to own a pharmacy at some point, I decided to only work in an independent pharmacy, and that so me served me really great, because I started to experience first clients, what it took to run a business, run a pharmacy business in the United States. And I was fortunate enough to have a great pharmacy owner who showed me so many things. But you know, unfortunately, what that did to me was kind of give me a very bad perspective of how pharmacy should what pharmacy is. And I thought that, well, pharmacy is what I want to end up doing, but I don’t think it’s the time. I don’t think it’s the right time. But knowing that I wanted to pursue something that allowed me to be an entrepreneur in some way, I knew it had to be something that would leverage my school as a pharmacist, and, you know, with my experience, I was like, well, in every other you know, area of pharmacy practice, they’re already really the people that are, you know, dominating. I want to sort of create my own niche. I don’t like to follow the general trends and what people do, you know, go to AMK and those things, and those things are great, and I do a lot of that, and I did a lot of that in my career so far, but I wanted to sort of carve out a niche for myself in pain management, to be able to be an entrepreneur, be a consultant, pharmacist, and do all these things until the point that I was able to actually stop my pharmacy so it was still In line with my overall vision of being an entrepreneur and being able to self, direct, direct my destiny, and not, you know, be beholden to a paycheck. I just that idea just just doesn’t sit well with me, so that, that was why I pursued the fellowship, and was a great, great experience for me. 

Tim Ulbrich  06:58

So what I hear there, Emmanuel, is there was this throughline of entrepreneurship that’s always been there, not surprising, right? Multiple generations in the family. And so you had this thought pretty early on, of, hey, I would like to own my own business, own pharmacy. Had some real life experience in independent pharmacy working for someone else, which I always recommend people that are thinking about, Hey, open up a business, get that experience, kind of see it firsthand, see what you like, what you don’t like. But through that experience, it sounds like you you butted up against the real challenges that we’ll talk about, you know, in the profession, and maybe that tampered down some of that interest, at least temporarily. And so you pursued this other pathway all the while, this through line of entrepreneurship, was there of, hey, I’m not sure exactly what it’s going to look like or when it’s going to happen, but I want to continue to pursue opportunities that are going to put me in a position in the future when I’m ready. Is that right?

Emmanuel Ayanjoke  07:49

Yep, that’s perfectly that’s that’s accurate. That’s exactly what happened. 

Tim Ulbrich  07:53

One thing you said I’d love to hear more from you on is, you know, I knew that I didn’t want to be beholden to a paycheck. I sensed some emotion in that statement of just, you know, I know myself, right? I know that that’s not for me. Tell us more about you know that realization and why that was important to you?

Emmanuel Ayanjoke  08:12

Yeah, I think that realization has always been there in the one thing I didn’t also say was, my mom was also an entrepreneur. She had her home business, and she, you know, used to run convenience stores and couple gas stations back at home then. So I knew for a fact that, you know, that that’s just what I wanted to do. But, but one of the things that I’ve also learned about the system of America is the reality that, unfortunately, those who you know pay for everything is the middle class. And when I say middle class is those you know who are professionals, and you know, you’re hit with so much taxes and so many there’s so many downsides to being a W2 earner. So I realized that real, that part, but also the quite honest reality is that you’re never paid what you’re worth as a W2 earner. That’s just a reality down. There’s no two ways around it. If you were paid your worth, no one would create companies, right? 

Tim Ulbrich  09:15

It wouldn’t make any sense.    

Emmanuel Ayanjoke  09:17

Yeah, it wouldn’t make any sense, right? So I just didn’t like that idea. I felt like there was a lot more I need to do in this world than to have my, you know, my impact kept by being by working at a place. But that’s just what drives me, you know, again, it’s okay for most people, and that’s, that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong about it. I just didn’t, I don’t think that aligns with me, internally and throughout my life experiences. 

Tim Ulbrich  09:43

Yeah, it’s interesting. And we’ll talk about the challenges of owning your own business. You know it’s real. I know it’s real. There are highs, there are lows, but it certainly does take off the ceiling. It also takes off the floor, right in terms of, you know what could go wrong, but you know what you’re sharing is very real. There’s no knock whatsoever to the path of a W2 you know, for many people, that is what makes the most sense, for a variety of reasons, but it is a reality that in the US, from a tax standpoint, the tax code is very much written in favor of people that own a business and own real estate. Those are really two things. And you know, it’s interesting we think about a lot of independent pharmacy owners, despite the challenges. You know, they’re really tapping into both of those things, and I can really sense how it was important you have that autonomy to be able to pursue not only the decision making in the business, but also to have some of the financial upside flexibility. But I want people to hear this loud and clear, like there is real downside as well when it comes to owning the business. And both must be considered, and we’ll talk about that here in a little bit. So take us back then you open the doors of the pharmacy in the Avondale, Cincinnati area in April of this year. And so at some point, you know, while you might have temporarily went away from Hey, I’m ready to open my pharmacy, it came back, right. So what was the moment where you said, All right, I’m ready to do this. And what led, what was the spark to really get into that place of alright, let’s go.

Emmanuel Ayanjoke  11:11

Yeah. So this was in 2022 which feels like last year, but two years ago, when I was in the middle of my fellowship, and I, you know, one of the things I value is network and having people around you that always look out for you. That is the value of that has just been immense in my life. But, you know, I was in my fellowship at the time, I was working part time, sort of, I mean, I wasn’t the official pharmacy manager, but I was basically the manager at the independent pharmacy that I worked at. So I was quite busy, you know, being the fellowship, doing research, and doing all these different things, and still fully commit, you know, helping out at the retail pharmacy. And I remember it was Stu Beatty, actually, from OPA. 

Tim Ulbrich  12:04

Oh, no way. 

Emmanuel Ayanjoke  12:06

Yeah, yes, yeah. He sent me the flyer to Project Oasis, which is the program that I got the opportunity to open the pharmacy through. And I started to learn about it. And initially I brushed it down. I was like, Well, this is some national program. There’s no chance that I’ll even get anywhere close to this. And I sort of didn’t even, you know, want to, I knew that’s what I wanted to do, but I really didn’t think I would get anywhere. And then, you know, two weeks later or so, Antonio Ciaccio who have gone to me, you know, through different experiences, and we’ve connected very well, he’s forwarded that same flyer to me, saying, Hey, I think you’d be a good candidate. I think you should apply to this. I was like, Oh, my so I guess the stars are aligned, and everyone thinks that I’m, you know, I tend to think of myself more humbly, and I didn’t think I would get anywhere. But you know, was these two folks that believed in me and encouraged me to go out and apply, and I took on the process and started doing my due diligence, drawing from my knowledge, and really leaning in on people that I know. Again, once I started to digest and understand what Project Oasis was trying to accomplish, it was almost mirror of what I wanted to do in every way right, make an impact in a place that doesn’t have a pharmacy, be the pharmacy, be the pharmacy shepherd, quote, unquote, in that community and helping address the needs and concerns of the community. So that just resonated with me on a very personal level, and it just aligned. And the biggest part of all that was that you got to open a pharmacy, but not just by yourself. You had the back end support of so many people that are committed to seeing this successful. So to me, was like, a no brainer, to at least pursue it. If it didn’t pan out, at least I learned a thing or two about writing a business plan that needed to be presented in like, you know, really, really hire people in McKesson, and so I applied for it, and that’s basically all where the story started.

Tim Ulbrich  14:22

You know, it’s interesting. Back to the through line of entrepreneurship. Emmanuel, I often say that, you know, for people and your story is such a good one, the synchronicity here is not accidental, right? So you might have kind of taken a sidestep or a pause, but it chased you down eventually, right? It chased you down in the form of Stu Beatty, now the Dean at Ohio Northern and Antonio Ciaccio, two incredible individuals in the profession and Ohio pharmacy practice that clearly saw a potential and an opportunity, and really, you know, that was a big nudge and an avenue forward. You mentioned Project Oasis a couple times. Tell us more about that for those that are listening, what exactly is that? How is that helpful to you getting this off the ground?

Emmanuel Ayanjoke  15:03

Yeah, so Project Oasis, was, you know, being that, you know, of course, I’ve been involved in no ins and out. But if you know, McKesson always tries, tries to tell everyone to just, you know, say certain lines. But I’ll give more, more back into how we started. You know, in Avondale here we had one of McKesson employees who lives and doesn’t live in Avondake, but family’s from Avondale here and has a very personal ties with community. This is way back then in 2018-2019 and he started to notice that his community was losing access to so many things. Grocery stores were closing, pharmacies were closing, and a community that’s in the heart of Cincinnati, literally, you see, health is right behind us, doesn’t have these critical things, grocery store, a pharmacy and so many other things that were needed. And there was this general talk within McKesson of trying to do a community impact project, something that would impact lives. And I think every organization of business should always try to do something beyond just their typical mission of whatever it is that they do to impact lives, because that’s where that’s all that matters at the end of the day. So they, you know, he took on the idea with support of folks within his division McKesson, that was a Russo O’Neill, okay? And he pushed his idea that, hey, let’s try to start a pharmacy where it’s needed. And they did an analysis and found that Avondale, Cincinnati, truly was, like, top of the list in terms of, you know, an urban region that doesn’t have a pharmacy, health isn’t where it needs, where it needs to be as a community level, and so many other things, disparities that were going on in Avondale, and that’s where it all started from. And, you know, fortunately, those within the higher ups of McKesson saw the impact that this project could make. And, you know, they dubbed the Project Oasis with the term that, you know, desert, pharmacy desert, and you’re putting the pharmacy there. And so, yeah, that’s what, that’s where Project Oasis started from, but one of the things that I learned through applying to it was the level of commitment that people had, not just as you know workers within this, you know, Fortune 10 company, but also the personal connection that people had towards a Project where people you know, you meet folks, are like, hey, whatever you need to be successful. I am happy to help you out. This is important. We want to make an impact in your community. So that was really, that’s really what Project Oasis is about. Now I don’t know what their what McKesson and their goal is right now with Project Oasis. But the goal was to sort of address this pharmacy deserts that come across, you know, the United States. 

Tim Ulbrich  18:07

So we’ll link to that in the show notes for folks that want to learn more about that program. Do you have an idea? Manu, I’m just curious now, how many pharmacies have been supported by Project Oasis?

Emmanuel Ayanjoke  18:19

Oh, so right now, I am the first.

Tim Ulbrich  18:21

Let’s go!

Emmanuel Ayanjoke  18:22

Yeah, I’m the only one so far. And you know, it’s quite, quite a responsibility to be success, to make this successful, because a lot of other communities are, hopefully, maybe might be impacted by this. So failure is not an option. That’s how I see it. So I’m sort of a test run to see, yeah, if this can work.

Tim Ulbrich  18:45

Well, you and I both know, from a business standpoint, there will be micro failures that happen along the way. I hear you in the global failure, right? But, but naturally, for you to see this vision through, you’re going to have to embrace some level of failure along the way and take some risks. One of the things that stands out to me, Emmanuel, is that, you know, I talk with a lot of people on a regular basis, they have an idea, but it often dies at that point, right? The idea doesn’t go forward. It’s a whole nother level to actually execute, take on risk and begin to see that vision through and and I’ve since in your journey, while you’ve always thought about owning your own business, clearly the support and the resources through Project Oasis have been huge for you to say, All right, I’m ready to jump. I’m ready to move this forward. In addition to project Oasis and the team from McKesson that support you, what other resources have been critical to you as you’ve gone through this, this journey of open your own pharmacy?

Emmanuel Ayanjoke  19:41

I mean, if I started to list them out, you provide spend the next hour of this going through it. But I think the most important resource for me, in addition to the things that I try to do personally, like reading a lot of books, listening to a lot of audiobooks, has been people, the people that have gotten to meet. For me, I value relationships at a very high attribute, a very high value to relationships. So people that played a key part in my life, as been my former boss that I worked with in Zik’s Pharmacy. He’s just been a terrific human being to me, and has helped me with the realities of owning the business and how to be successful. So it’s people. I mean, I could go down a list of folks at Cedarville who have helped me personally my personal growth as a pharmacist, helping me understand certain things. It really is just people. I think the big, your biggest asset to success, for anyone, any successful person, is people. 

Tim Ulbrich  20:49

Yes, relationships, people, absolutely. Especially in our profession, you know, where that community is is so small, right? Relatively speaking. And one of the things I asked you, before we hit record, I said, Hey, Emmanuel, how you doing? And you said, Hey, I’m going 1000 miles an hour, but I have so much support, so much support, and I think that speaks to the work that you’ve done in fostering those relationships, and the growth that has come from those. Emmanuel, I have to ask the obvious question that I think a lot of probably new practitioners that are thinking about owning their own pharmacy, or anyone, for that matter, that maybe is thinking about owning on a pharmacy, which is Wow, opening a pharmacy in this climate, right? We know the challenges are real. According to a recent NCPA survey, over 30% of respondents reported that they’re considering closing their doors in 2024 because of the financial challenges, and over 90% of them said that they may drop out of Medicare Part D in 2025 if the challenges still persist. So from the outside looking in, it doesn’t appear to be the best time to be launching a new pharmacy. So tell us more about how you’ve been able to, you know, see through that despite those challenges being real, and say, Hey, I’m still going to go at this. 

Emmanuel Ayanjoke  22:02

I think the first thing I’ve learned in life is nothing is truly as good as it seems, and nothing is truly as bad as it seems. It’s always all gray. There’s no exactly this is black and this is white. It never is that way. It’s always all gray. And what I mean by that is, will you dive deeper and understand in a specific market the factors and headwinds going on in that market is very different. For example, in Ohio, if you’re in a Medicaid an area that has high Medicaid concentration, you have a fair dispensing fee that covers your costs of operating as a business. So that alone is a huge difference than a pharmacy that doesn’t have a high Medicaid area, right? So, yes, there’s always there. They are real, harsh realities of the pharmacy right now, even as a new business, when I look at my Medicare, you know, scripts, and performance in those scripts, I mean, I want to, I would throw my hands up and just, it’s, it’s horrifying sometimes, you know, but the reality of what I’ve learned is, you know, typically, to be successful in life. And I’m not saying this because I’m anywhere yet, but I’m saying this because I’ve seen other people, and I learned from a lot of people, but what I found is people that tend to be successful often go against the grain, go against what the crowd typically does. And there’s cycles in life. There’s always going to be naders and high points. And I think pharmacy is out of Nader right now. But when you are the Nader, that’s not necessarily negative thing. That’s a good thing when you started a native because it’s only high from there. And there’s a lot of factors and a lot of things and challenges that are going to happen in next 10 years for pharmacy to be where it needs to be. But I think that I am hopeful that we’re at the lowest point, and from here it’s just moving forward. 

Tim Ulbrich  23:59

Yeah, I really hear mindset there Emmanuel, which I think is huge as a business owner, but I also hear optimism. I’m an optimist by nature, you know, as well. But I agree with you, actually, you know, it reminds me of Seth Godin talks about this in his book, The Dip, where, you know, often we go through these cycles, could be a project, could be a business, wherever you know, where we have an initial momentum and surge, and then we, you know, for whatever reason here we’re talking about market conditions and factors and reimbursement. You know, we kind of go down right, and we get to this low point, and we start to just come out of the other side of it, but we can’t yet see what’s coming. And that’s the point where a lot of people give up, you know, is when they’re in that low point, in that dip. And I think that it feels, and again, I’m a half glass full person, it feels like all signs are pointing towards some reform and these things, I think you and I look at this just as a common sense business owner, and we’re like, How in the world can this be okay to operate a business with these practices going on right? Now there’s a lot of headwinds that we’re facing in terms of why that’s the case, but I’m curious to hear from you as you look at as an owner and someone who shoulders some of the responsibility to advocate for, you know, the viability of community independent pharmacists to be able to provide the value that we know. The literature is very clear, the positive value and outcomes that a pharmacist can provide in their community, especially in an area where there’s a lack of access to healthcare. The data is clear. It’s there, but we continue to be undervalued and under reimbursed globally speaking. So as you look at this from, hey, I’m a business owner, but I’m also an advocate for the profession, what are some of those key issues that we really have to address?

Emmanuel Ayanjoke  25:35

Oh, where do I start? I think the biggest key issue is, you know, we live in a capitalistic society, and we just have to accept that reality. Our businesses are not, you know, they’re not you know, pharmacies are not nonprofits. They have to be able to make money doing a certain service. And there are two ways to incentivize people to do things. You either use the carrot or use the steak method, right? And to really move the needle on a lot of things in pharmacy practice, to get community pharmacy practice to be where it needs to be, there has to be payment reform. Reform in a sense that it covers us to operate as a business and provide those scripts, but also reform in a sense that we’re actually paid for the clinical knowledge that we provide. So those are, I mean, that sums, encapsulates lots of challenges, but those are the key. I think those are two things that need to happen for pharmacy, community pharmacy, to be where it needs to be. I think the values there. I mean, everyone is the values there. I’ve been opportunity to be on the tables with payers, physicians. I mean, everyone, even patients, everyone agrees that the values there. The challenge now is just getting rid of those barriers that allow us to be able to create a clear path to making these realistic, or, I guess, tactile, changes in the payment models that allow pharmacists to be paid.

Tim Ulbrich  27:08

Yeah, amen, you know, I think we it’s very clear. We don’t need another study to demonstrate the value of what a pharmacist can bring, right? We don’t need another pilot project, you know, to demonstrate that. They’ve been done. We see the value and the reimbursement, I think, is really the issue. And two individuals you mentioned earlier that were pivotal, you know, you started the pharmacy, Antonio Ciaccio, Stu Beatty, have been key advocates of this in the state of Ohio, you know, over the last decade, if not more. So last question I want to ask you is really the intersection between the business and the personal side of finances. You know, I talk with a lot of new graduates, and it’s not uncommon for me to hear something along the lines of, Hey, Tim, I would love to do X, Y or Z. And that could be on a business that could be, you know, do something different, work part time. It could be a variety of different things. But what comes next is my $200,000 of student loans, or insert any other financial challenge that is so common among new practitioners is a barrier to being able to go work towards these other goals that they have, right? And I think the golden handcuffs can be very real when you’re looking at a couple $100,000 of debt, and you can sign up and work for 120 130 $140,000 it’s hard to say no for that, and it doesn’t incentivize a whole lot of people to take risk in the way that you have done. So tell us about your decision, your journey to reconciling your own financial plan as a new practitioner, and ultimately making that decision to take on some risk as a business owner.

Emmanuel Ayanjoke  28:35

Yeah, absolutely. My vision and the way I see things and my general approach to life and business is sort of like planting trees, right? And what I mean by that is, yes, you might not have the perfectly, you know, I guess nutrient swallow for a tree that’s several feet high, but you can at least plant something for now, and that that is kind of has been my approach to everything, and why you might not have the financial capacity to necessarily, you know, you might not feel like you have the financial capacity to do certain things, it’s still important to plant the tree. And that’s, that’s how I see things. So I have about, honestly, have just slightly I’m a little bit better, and in comparison to a lot of pharmacy graduates, I have about $103,000 in student loans, which, which is still a lot of money, quite a lot of money. But it’s not nothing compares, in comparison to others who are just graduating. But the thing I would say is the way I would approach this is, do I have the cash flow to sustain my ability to eradicate those loans in a reasonable way? And if I do, or if I don’t, what ways can I mitigate that, even if I went to going to you know, own a business, that would be how our approach is. Because no matter how you see it, right, if owning a business is your end goal, if that’s where you want to be, time is going to go on. You know, time doesn’t wait for anyone. 10 years down the line, you’re going to be in the same place having, I mean, if you’re lucky, cleared all this debt, but at the end of the day, if this is something you want to do, you have to figure out to make your finances accommodate that in a way that makes sense. Now, again, it doesn’t mean you’re just blindly taking risks, right? Yeah, you actually have to calculate and see, okay, yeah. What is the worst case scenario if this happens, you know XYZ, and be able to be okay with that. If you can’t be okay with it, then maybe, I mean, some people, just maybe, the reality is that they actually are aren’t fit from a mindset perspective, to own a business, and that’s okay because it requires that you’re okay with, like, literally, things burning down. You just being by yourself and being able to weather through storm, you have to be okay with that reality, and that shouldn’t, shouldn’t scare you or deter you from accomplishing what you actually want to do. Yeah,

Tim Ulbrich  31:12

What I really hear there is, is, there is risk. It’s real, but it’s calculated risk, right? You’re not blindly entering into something, but we’re also not being paralyzed, you know? We could wait forever for the stars to align, you know. And I think that’s something I had to reconcile on my own entrepreneur journey. Is sure, could there be a tomorrow where it’s a better time, maybe, but there’s also a lot of things I don’t know that are going to happen tomorrow. And the question I always ask myself, not only in starting a business, but also in making decisions within the business, is, how high is the ceiling and how low is the floor. And I think my mindset, and probably for a lot of pharmacists, that I’ve kind of untrained myself, or I’m still untraining myself over time, is, you know, we tend to overestimate the worst case scenario, when, in fact, if we write it on paper, often it’s not as bad as we think it is, or built it up to be in our heads, and we maybe give we underestimate the potential of where this could go. Now, you got to be careful about that, right? If we have naive optimism, you know that that could burn us, but really assessing risk, you know, I think risk can bring a ton of emotions of fear, and we lose the objectivity of what are we actually talking about, right? What is the worst case scenario, and how can we begin to work through that? So I appreciate you sharing that as it relates to your own journey. Well, this has been fantastic. Dr. Manny, right as your patients call you, so grateful for you taking the time before you open the store today. A lot of inspiration that you provided to me in your own journey. I look forward to continuing to stay connected with you and to see where the journey goes going forward. Thank you so much for taking time to come on the show.

Emmanuel Ayanjoke  32:41

Thank you so much. Tim. Glad to be on.

Tim Ulbrich  32:45

Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists and the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% down payment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers and has no PMI on a 30 year fixed rate mortgage. To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to get started with the pre-approval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. 

Tim Ulbrich  33:30

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyzes expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events, action results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit your financial pharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week. 

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YFP 374: Pharmacy Innovators with Aaron Emmel, Founder of Pharmacy Tech Scholar


In this episode of the Pharmacy Innovators series hosted by Dr. Corrie Sanders, we meet Dr. Aaron Emmel, a pharmacist with a diverse career path. 

This episode is brought to you by YFP+

Episode Summary

In this latest episode of the Pharmacy Innovators series hosted by Dr. Corrie Sanders, we meet Dr. Aaron Emmel, a pharmacist with a diverse career path. 

Dr. Emmel shares how open doors and opportunities led him on a journey from a community pharmacist to executive health system leadership and the pharmaceutical industry to entrepreneurship. With many lessons learned along the way, Dr. Emmel reflects on trusting his intuition, leaning on mentors, working hard and staying curious. Throughout his journey, he explored other income streams, including real estate investing, consulting and eventually launching Pharmacy Tech Scholar, an online education program for pharmacy technicians. 

Dr. Emmel’s career journey exemplifies the extraordinary versatility and potential of a PharmD.

About Today’s Guest

Aaron Emmel graduated with his Doctor of Pharmacy Degree from the University of Florida in 2007. After a short stint as a staff pharmacist at Walgreens, he was afforded an opportunity to work as a clinical pharmacist at his local community hospital. He developed a passion for critical care medicine and spent years as the dedicated ICU pharmacist. In 2015, he earned his Masters in Healthcare Administration from the University of North Florida. With a goal of moving into executive health system leadership, he transitioned into a role as the Director of the Clinically Integrated Network and ACO owned by the hospital and local physicians. He served in this role until 2018, when he made the decision to transition into the pharmaceutical industry where we worked in Medical Affairs roles until his decision to end employment in 2024. 

Aaron launched his first business, SmarterMeds, in 2010. Focusing on MTM services, he learned many lessons on entrepreneurship and business before abandoning the effort in 2012. He first began consulting in 2014, and significantly increased this work following his departure from the hospital in 2018. In 2020, he launched Pharmacy Tech Scholar, an online education program for individuals interested in becoming certified pharmacy technicians. He also invests in real estate.

Aaron has been married to his high school sweetheart, Allison, since 2010. They have two amazing daughters, aged 8 and 11. In his spare time, Aaron loves traveling with the family, fishing, exercising, and fueling his coffee obsession.

Key Points from the Episode

  • Dr. Aaron Emmel’s Career Journey [0:00]
  • Dr. Emmel’s Early Career and Decision to Leave Retail Pharmacy [3:38]
  • Transition to Pharmaceutical Industry and Consulting [6:48]
  • Financial Decisions and Career Transitions [11:44]
  • Building and Diversifying Financial Portfolio [30:06]
  • Final Thoughts and Advice for Listeners [1:01:16]

Episode Highlights

“I’m just so grateful that I’ve had an interesting journey and I’ve been able to do so many different things. I’ve met so many amazing people along the way. So when I reflect on this, I’m just so grateful for everything that’s happened, and I’m excited for what’s to come, because I feel like I’m always trying something new and navigating things, maybe accidentally, just the right way.” – Dr. Aaron Emmel [1:58]

“I’m not out there to make, you know, a bazillion dollars and live on a mountain somewhere. I mean my mindset at this point has become one of, I want to be prepared for anything. I could be in a position to retire pretty soon, if I really wanted to, but that’s not what I want. I want to be able to weather any storm, and I want my family to be set no matter what. That’s what’s driving me. – Dr. Aaron Emmel [29:46]

“I do good work because I want to do good work. But there’s other ancillary benefits that come from that, just aside from just doing well in your employee role and growing that career ladder.” -Dr. Aaron Emmel [32:54]

“Being brave enough to make tough decisions that you know are in your best interest, always try to do things the best that you can. And the other important lesson that I’ve learned is to do them for the right reasons.” -Dr. Aaron Emmel [42:51]

“I didn’t have enough of an altruistic mindset at the time, but I’ve literally built my career ever since then on the concept of trying to do the right thing for people. So if you do all that and you do it well, opportunities come”. – Dr. Aaron Emmel [43:42]

“With all these inflection points in my journey, it has had just as much, if not more, to do with the other people around me than it’s had to do with me. And I definitely come to understand that better now.” -Dr. Aaron Emmel [1:01:45]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Corrie Sanders  00:00

Hi YFP community. Corrie Sanders here, host of the Pharmacy Innovators Segment of the YFP Podcast. Pharmacy Innovators is designed for pharmacists navigating the entrepreneurial journey. In this series, we feature stories and strategies that help guide current and aspiring pharmacy entrepreneurs. Today, we have Dr. Aaron Emmel, whose unique career pathway and experience highlights the true flexibility of a PharmD. After graduating with his Doctor of Pharmacy degree from the University of Florida in 2007 and a short stint as a community pharmacist, he was afforded an opportunity to work as a clinical pharmacist at his local community hospital, where he specialized in critical care. After earning his master’s in healthcare administration from the University of North Florida, he transitioned to Executive Health System Leadership. He then made a large career shift by leaving clinical practice for the pharmacy industry, where he simultaneously started various businesses and consulting while expanding his investment portfolio. In 2020, he launched Pharmacy Tech Scholar, an online education program for individuals interested in becoming certified pharmacy technicians. Today, we speak to Dr. Emmel about the importance of mentorship and decision making and building unique and valuable skill sets in each chapter of his career. But what really stands out to me the most in my discussion with Dr Emmel is his passion for helping others by problem solving through the lens of a pharmacist. I’m sure you all will enjoy the true diversity of D.r Emmel’s path. So let’s jump right into our conversation. 

Corrie Sanders  01:31

Well, Aaron, thanks for joining us on the podcast today. We’re excited to have you here!

Dr. Aaron Emmel  01:35

Yeah, thanks for having me. Corrie, I’m flattered. Hopefully my story adds something to the podcast.

Corrie Sanders  01:41

I’m sure it will. So before we dive in too deep, why don’t you give our listeners a little bit of background. So describe your path in pharmacy. Where’d you go to pharmacy school? What kind of training do you have? And just a general overview of your career to this point.

Dr. Aaron Emmel  01:58

Yeah. Okay, so where do I start? I will say up front, I’m just so grateful that I’ve had an interesting journey and I’ve been able to do so many different things. I’ve met so many amazing people along the way. So when I reflect on this, I’m just so grateful for everything that’s happened, and I’m excited for what’s to come, because I feel like I’ve always trying something new and navigating things, maybe accidentally, just the right way. But I went to the University of Florida, so I graduated with my Doctor of Pharmacy degree in 2007. I was, I think, the second class that did remote campuses at UF so I actually went to a campus in Jacksonville, Florida, met some awesome classmates that are still close friends of mine to this day. Here we are almost 20 years now after graduating, but all throughout pharmacy school, I worked at Walgreens as a technician/pharmacy intern. I’m sure we’ll talk about this in more detail. But with that, you know, I was kind of, I don’t want to say indoctrinated, because, you know, people have made great careers out of working at Walgreens, but I had bought into, you know, the long term career path with them, and took all the tuition assistance, and when I graduated, thought that that was going to be my career. And I’m ambitious young man. At the time, I kind of saw a path for myself, growing in the business sense, so I took the sign on bonus as soon as I graduated and worked for them as a staff pharmacist. But thankfully, after that, I had a couple of months later, a phone call from my local hospital where I did many of my clinical rotations, and they offered me a job to come there and work as a pharmacist, which at the time, I was starting to feel like I had made the wrong decision. Couldn’t have been better timing, and we can dive deeper into this, but to have that opportunity without doing a residency, I knew it was now or never. So I made that transition then, and had the wonderful opportunity to end up specializing in critical care, which to this day, is my clinical passion. I worked almost 10 years as the critical care pharmacist at Flagler Hospital in St Augustine, and I don’t know that we have time in this podcast where come with that, but that was by far my most professionally rewarding work. And I often fantasize one day about going back. I don’t know if that’ll be possible this many years later at this point, but just had an amazing career as a critical care pharmacist. Got to do a lot of really cool things at the institution and really drive some pretty substantial change in their ICU practice and even in the pharmacy practice in general, and I had some mentors that I looked up to in terms of what they had done in their careers and their health systems. But again, you know, kind of ambition driving me to think I’ve got a long career path ahead of me. What am I going to do with my life? I don’t see myself being a critical care pharmacist forever, and it’s a stressful job. And starts the way on you mentally, at least it did for me. So I went back and got my master’s in health administration, and kind of thought of having a goal that maybe one day I’ll be the CEO of a hospital. So that was the path I started to pursue almost 10 years in to having worked as the critical care pharmacist. So once I got that degree, I had always been pitching business ideas and thoughts to the hospital leadership, and I started asking for more and more responsibility. So they gave me a really cool opportunity to take a dual role as the Assistant Director of Pharmacy and then as the Director of Quality for their clinically integrated network, which essentially functioned as an accountable care organization, and I built their entire quality program, all the claims analytics that went along with that, all the infrastructure necessary to execute quality reporting for the entity. And it wasn’t long in that role where they really saw the opportunity for me to grow and take on all the administrative leadership for that organization. So I became the Director of the organization, handled everything from physician relations to finances and contracting, continued to oversee the quality program, and for that two year period, just had an incredible professional growth and sense of just learning about healthcare administration, working very closely with payers, and working very closely to oversee population health in the community and working with the physicians to do that. So that role was amazing in that sense, but it drove me into the ground. I mean, it was tons of work. You know, 60 plus hours a week, missing many evenings at home to be in physician committee meetings, lots of stress, because the organization, just as all community health systems in the past five years have experienced, for sure, just struggled financially. So I started to get the feeling that that wasn’t a long term path I wanted to pursue. And I had, you know, my mentor in that role, who was my boss, had gone on to be an executive member of the leadership team for the healthcare system. I saw what that was like for him. I didn’t want that for myself. So again, I kind of hit this inflection point where I saw the need to maybe pivot one more time. And I had just as many clinical pharmacists, you know, they get friends that go to the pharmaceutical industry and work in medical affairs and hear about how wonderful that job is. And I had so many people that left clinical practice that went and did that either came to see me in their role, you know, to kind of to do their opinion leader meeting, you know, requirements, or they’d call me and just tell me how amazing that job was. I never thought I’d work for the pharmaceutical industry, because at the time, I was always the clinical pharmacist that gave everybody from industry a hard time when they’d come in and try to detail people. And you know, to me, that was, quote, The Dark Side, just like that perception exists amongst many of us in the pharmacy world. But I, you know, thought, why don’t I give it a try? Let me see what it’s like. I was always afraid of the travel, but I did it. So in 2018 I moved into a role with Otsuka pharmaceuticals as they were building the Medical Affairs field team for new indication they were getting in rare diseases and kidney diseases. And again, it was just a great growth for me. I got to experience something new, meet a ton of different people, learn about the pharmaceutical industry. Got rid of a lot of the misconceptions I had about it, and really thrived in that role for six years. So I worked for that company for a while. I pivoted and took a director field role with another company shortly after, or five years later, and then at the same time, I had started some additional side ventures. We haven’t even gotten into my all my side businesses over the years, as I’m trying to keep all this story straight, but that it just became very difficult for me to handle everything else I had been doing on the side. So I stepped away from the director role. I took another just individual contributor role with another company as an MSL, but even that individual contributor role, I just couldn’t fulfill, you know, the duties of that role in my opinion, everybody thought I was doing a great job, but I didn’t feel that I was doing good service to the company or myself for my business ventures and other reasons too. I saw the need to leave employment, and I made that decision professionally earlier this year. And again, we’ll dive much deeper into all that, especially the finances and considerations that went into that, but that would be probably too long of a summary professional career as a pharmacist. Um, and at the moment, I would consider myself, you know, still a pharmacist, because I’ll always be a pharmacist. I do think I will be going back at some point to do something professionally as a pharmacist, and more than I’m doing right now with with my education business for pharmacy technicians and the consulting work that I’m doing. So yeah.

Corrie Sanders  10:26

That’s a great summary to at least kind of set the stage for where this conversation is going to flow, the many different aspects and transitions that you’ve made into the career. So just to summarize it for the listeners too, to paint a picture of where we’re going. But started in community pharmacy, transition to inpatient pharmacy, where you worked your way up through the leadership chain, and then making another career pivot into industry, which I can’t wait to talk about that, but then ultimately switching to consulting and really starting your own business. So diving full time into entrepreneurship, and I’m sure the wide variety of things that you had done prior to that were able to give you a really steady foundation as to what you wanted your business to look like, and different financial considerations and all that experience, I’m sure, came into play in a really positive way for you. So let’s break this down into the smaller chunks, so we can really dive into the details. I know you started in community pharmacy. You said you were a technician at Walgreens for a couple years through pharmacy school, and I know there was some financial incentive to stay on board as a community pharmacist once you had graduated. So can we dive into some of those benefits that that company had offered, and then ultimately you made a pretty quick shift into inpatient pharmacy, so talking about the benefits of community pharmacy, and then ultimately that really quick flip into to inpatient and kind of the decisions that went into that, if you could elaborate a little more.

Dr. Aaron Emmel  11:59

I’ll be happy to. You know, when I was going to school, I will say my financial mindset and my financial education was not very sound. I thought it was. It certainly wasn’t. There’s so many mistakes that I’m just so grateful I can share them with my children now. But you know, I was of the mindset that it was ridiculous to do a residency, because why would somebody in their financial life take one to two additional years where they’re not able to earn a substantial income after investing all the time and money into pharmacy school? A very, very short sighted mindset, by the way, if, if, if I didn’t know how my career was going to pan out and I had to do it all over again, I would certainly have done a residency, no doubt about it. I’m fortunate things worked out the way they did when I didn’t. But you know, I was kind of committing myself that I wanted to earn as much money as I could, as fast as possible. And at the time, the salaries that pharmacists were earning in community pharmacies, for the most part, were substantially higher than they were in hospital pharmacies, at least in terms of what those dollars look like for a student who wasn’t making much money at the time. So I’m thinking, why would I earn $20 to $30,000 annually less a year to work at a hospital, when I could just make that much more money in the community and not have to do a residency to be competitive. So that was the mindset that drove me to do that, and I was ignoring all the subliminal things I was feeling, especially as I started to go through my clinical rotations. And I loved all of the clinical rotations I did, and I don’t feel like I was a great pharmacy student. I probably was just going through the motions at the time as just kind of a young guy that just wanted to get out and make a great living. I have learned so much since then, and you know, I certainly have a much different mindset when it comes to learning now and what the pharmacy career is all about, and the role of the pharmacist. I was ignoring all that because I was so focused on the dollars. And at the same time, I was living a life that was not financially healthy at all, you know. So it was kind of a really terrible path I was leading myself down, and I wasn’t happy, you know, with the day to day work that I was doing at the community retail pharmacy level. And again, I was kind of trying to ignore that, because I was so focused on the finances. So, you know, after having gone through all the clinical rotations and knowing what experiences I enjoyed and what I didn’t, and then committing myself when I got done to work for Walgreens, and this is nothing again, I’m not throwing shade on Walgreens in this podcast, but it was just my personal experience and feelings. I just wasn’t happy, and I really started acknowledge that a little bit more when pharmacy school was over and I was working as a pharmacist, and I’m getting those first paychecks, and those paychecks weren’t really satisfying enough to warrant, you know, the experience I was having in the work. So I definitely had regrets, and I was so grateful when I got that call from the director of Pharmacy at Flagler. And I will tell you, this to me, was the most important inflection point in my professional career, by far, was the decision to leave retail pharmacy, to go to the hospital to do that. And you got to realize at the time, I did the stupid stuff that so many pharmacy students do. I had bought a house, bought a car, taken out all these loans before I even graduated, right? So, you know, I was in a negative net worth situation that took me a long time to dig out of, and then I’m faced with the decision that, okay, I’m going to take a at the time, I think it was about a $30,000 a year pay cut to leave retail, to go work for the hospital, and I had to write Walgreens at check for all the money I took, you know, because there was a fulfillment criteria for that tuition assistance and the sign on bonus. So I don’t even remember the dollar figure at the time, but it was $30 to $40,000 and at the time, that was a whole lot of money that I didn’t have. So, you know, I borrowed money to pay them back, and it felt like financial suicide at the time. And I will tell you from my personal experience since then, might have had a wonderful career that I never would have had had I not made that decision, and as I learned better financial management over the years, that singular decision has probably also put me in a financial situation now I never would have been in before in a positive way. I didn’t know it at the time, but all the opportunities that have come to me since then would have never come had I not gained the different experiences I did along this journey. And it all goes back to that decision.

Corrie Sanders  17:14

Yeah, I think that that’s a really great point. Is that as pharmacists and really calculating the risk and reward for some of these financial decisions that we make, or just career decisions in general, it is always really easy to look at the dollar, because that’s such an objective measure of success. But often I feel like pharmacists just have their blinders on and they’re looking at a very shortstarted, sighted mindset of, what’s my next step? Where is the paycheck coming from, but not seeing the long term implications of what is this risk going to play out in the long term? What is my career path going to look like long term? What are the opportunities that are going to exist for me in a certain role long term. So you’ve done a very good job of elaborating and eloquently explaining why this decision was so important and what this inflection point meant for you. So I want to again highlight the short sighted mindset that you said that you had with the financial decision and the career decision that you made, and how you just hadn’t trusted your gut. So it’s great that you had the opportunity to make that transition so early on in your career, but then talking about that tuition assistance program, so that was huge, that you were getting some assistance, and that you had to sign on bonus with this job, and you still decided to walk away and to pivot into something different, which ultimately changed the trajectory of your career. So kudos to you. As a very young pharmacist for, I guess, being prompted to move in a different direction.

Dr. Aaron Emmel  18:45

So I had help with that, by the way, so the encouragement of my girlfriend at the time now my wife, my high school sweetheart, she was right there to support me, and she could see and feel what I was experiencing, so she knew what was best for me and my peers and one of my biggest mentors, even to this day. So I did a lot of my rotations at the St Vincent’s Hospital System in Jacksonville. There was a wonderful pharmacy director there. He’s been retiring now for quite a bit of time, but Jim Makava, I did a couple of my rotations at his health system, and I was blown away by what they had been able to accomplish as a community health system, not an academic health system, but the level of clinical pharmacy services they had just blew me away. So I knew right away that was somebody I needed to maintain a relationship with and look up to. So he helped guide me in that decision, too. I called him many times as I was trying to decide what to do, and he helped, you know, he didn’t tell me what to do, but he asked me all the right questions to make me realize what I needed to do, and I had my one of my best friends that I met in pharmacy school had the same exact scenario as me, and we both went through this together. And I can’t speak for him, but he made the same decision I did, and he’s now a systems director for ascension at this at the systems level, and he’s had a wonderful pharmacy career, brilliant individual. So we both benefited, I think, from going through this pain together, the fortitude to make the decision now.

Corrie Sanders  20:28

It certainly helps not to go through things by yourself in any chapter of life, especially something as as drastic as this, to really change the trajectory of your career so early on. So something else I want to highlight too is that you had mentioned having a pretty significant lifestyle creep up to this point. So you’re spending money that you don’t have. You know, you’re looking at the what the paychecks are going to look like, but your financial literacy is not matching what’s going in and out of your bank account. So also, for our pharmacy student listeners, I think it is so important to highlight how necessary it is to be financially literate and educated as you’re making some of these decisions very early on in your career, especially with the significant loan burden that a pharmacist generally has. So that was a, I’m sure, a tough learning lesson for you, but ultimately set you up for Financial Success down the line when you were able to reflect on on some of those changes.

Dr. Aaron Emmel  21:19

Yeah, it did. I mean, the education that came from that invaluable. Sometimes I look back and I’m like, Oh man, like, I’m in a great place now, and I’m grateful for that. But how much of a better place would I be in had I done things a little better for that 10 year period?

Corrie Sanders  21:38

So then Aaron, I want to move from making that initial career transition so switching from community pharmacy being given the opportunity to navigate your way into inpatient and then ultimately staying within the Flagler Institution for a significant amount of time, working your way from a staff pharmacist to a clinical pharmacist, up through the leadership team and then your next big career transition is moving from the hospital setting to pharmacy industry. And you said something to me earlier that really struck a chord with me was that, you know, a lot of pharmacists call industry the dark side of pharmacy, or going to the dark side, or some of the misconceptions that you had. So let’s talk a little bit about that decision. And I know in your initial summary of your career that you were just talking about the work life balance at the hospital setting, but I really just want to dive into the financial implications of that transition, and then what ultimately went behind making the jump from the hospital setting to the industry setting? 

Dr. Aaron Emmel  22:47

So the biggest impetus, I would say, for me, making that change had everything to do with work life balance, you know. So if I rewind the clock to late 2017 as I’m thinking, I’m going to have to make a pivot. I’ve got a one year old, and I have a three year old, soon to be four year old at the time. So I’ve got little girls. I’m realizing the importance of being present and the fleeting nature of this point in time that you know, I didn’t want to miss out on and also, it wasn’t just the time to it was the level of stress and and the impact of that stress on my behavior and, wellbeing at home, and, you know, me and me and my wife, Allison, we had many talks about this. We knew this wasn’t sustainable. Sustainable both from just a family time together standpoint and from a health of our family unit standpoint. So that decision I made to go to industry based purely on that. I mean, I was all in. So I had, I had a game plan for all the jobs I was going to apply to, you know, a game plan for how I was going to interview and get in front of people. I didn’t have any other factors. I mean, I knew I was going to do this, my assumption at the time, because I was an executive director at the tail end of this period. So I’m making a pretty good salary that at the health system level, and I’ve got great benefits. I mean, I’m getting like, 36 days paid off a year, you know, all the ancillary benefits that come with being at the director level at the hospital. I didn’t think I was going to be able to match that, to go and just be an individual contributor, medical science liaison to start in the industry. So I made that decision, thinking, once again, I’m going to be taking a pay cut. Well, when I interviewed for my first job, I didn’t negotiate at all, and I got an offer after the interview, and it was a pay increase, and the benefits were incredible. I couldn’t believe it. I just never forget I stepped outside to take the call from HR, and they gave me the offer. And I came back in. I misunderstood at first, and I said, Wait, it’s this much, you know. When I came in and told Allison, I said, you’re not going to believe the offer I just got to come do this. And she’s like, well, you’re going to do it anyway. You better do it now. So I will say, from a financial standpoint, I was committed to do it yet again, because I wanted to just have a different experience and a work/life balance and be more present at home. But it turned out to actually be an improvement financially. And importantly, I will tell you, it gave me the time and energy to be able to do additional things as well. And again, while making the decision to go to from retail to clinical was the single most important decision in my entire professional career, this decision and just the way that things happened, completely changed my life financially. And it’s not because I made, you know, 10% more going from the director role to industry, but because of everything else that came with it. So I had done consulting before, and I My mind’s always racing. I’ve always got ideas. So I would always chase you know, opportunities and make pitches for doing these short term consulting arrangements, but when I left, there was nobody to fill my shoe my shoes at the hospital, then nobody that understood how to run the quality program. So they asked me if I’d be willing to stay on as a consultant to advise them and help them run the operations to execute the quality program requirements. I got approval from my new employer to allow me to do that, and that additional consulting income that I got for doing that, which, by the way, from a time in to dollar amount ratio at the time, I felt bad because I just didn’t understand how these things were valued, and I my business education has increased substantially since then, but I wasn’t making all that much less than I was getting paid, you know, as an employee, to essentially work five to 10 hours a month as a consultant. And that was income that was not factored into our budget so that additional money allowed me the opportunity to invest, invest in a new business, and put away money that we would have never put away before. So you know, I had done so much financial damage to myself in pharmacy school in the 10 years it took to dig me out of that hole, I hardly had a positive net worth, even going into that transition, and my life financially changed afterwards, because of everything else that came from being able to do things in addition to my employment.

Corrie Sanders  27:52

And that’s great reflection to hear. I love that you said, you know, you made this transition, not just for yourself, but for the overall health of your family unit. I think that that’s just a great lens to view any career transition through. Is not just looking at the professional aspect of it, but thinking again of the bigger picture and the others that are affected by your career. And I do want to give you kudos to I think you’re doing a great job of shifting your identity as a pharmacist, which I don’t think a lot of people do. They become so tied to:  “I am a critical care pharmacist, and that is where I’m going to hang my hat for the rest of my career.” But you’ve done such a great job of not only being flexible throughout different positions, but really stepping back and taking a look at the bigger lens of your your career and what that ultimately means to your family. So I think looking at the logistics and the nitty gritty of that transition too – really helpful to know where the flow of some of those funds went. So you mentioned, you know, you put yourself in a pretty bad spot early on, but being able to leverage some of these new opportunities to give yourself some stable financial footing, and then what a great way, even if it wasn’t intentional, but to be able to capitalize on having a consultant position on top of a new position. So when you’ve already made a little bit of a career transition, but being able to dabble in consulting so early on. So how long did you maintain that consulting piece, and then ultimately, what has that turned into, if anything at this point? 

Dr. Aaron Emmel  29:26

So still do it, and I’ve done it for other institutions as well. So I would say at this point, from in my financial picture, and I had this discussion too with Tim, just about my my mindset now, and I don’t want to get too derailed, but I’m not out there to make, you know, a bazillion dollars and, you know, live on a mountain somewhere. I mean that my mindset at this point has become one of, I want to be prepared for anything I’ve. I could be in a position to retire pretty soon, if I really wanted to, but that’s not what I want. I want to be able to weather any storm, and I want my family to be set no matter what. So that’s kind of what’s driving me. And when I think of how to accomplish that, it’s just basically to make sure we’ve got enough income coming in, and a stable enough income where one income stream can go away or get hurt, but we’ve got enough other diverse forms of income coming in. So the way I view that is this consulting work, I found I’ve been able to string that along, and there’s many opportunities I could get after if I really wanted to. So that is a very important source of stable income for us at this point. We haven’t talked about the education business yet, but that one’s doing pretty good too. So that’s a nice right now, stable form of income. I view a lot of external threats to that, which is why I feel the need to diversify income from investments. And right now, I’m focused more on real estate as a better cash flowing vehicle for investing income. So I want to grow these three as much as I can, and that way we have a very diverse income stream coming in. So the consulting piece has been excellent. And the thing that I have learned about consulting and where these opportunities come from, they come from doing a good job and building really good relationships. And I hope not getting too sidetracked here, but I think it’s important for the listeners to know that there are so many consulting opportunities that exist out there if you had the reputation and the experience to be able to present them or capitalize on them. So the consulting opportunity I got from the hospital came because I did a really good job with the quality program, and I spoke well, and I built great relationships with everybody, and they knew I can fulfill that need very well. They can count on me to do it. That’s why that opportunity presented itself, and we’ve done really well. And I say we because my wife, Allison, helps with that. She’s a nurse, and she does a lot of the chart reviews and quality abstraction we do as part of the services we provide. So that’s one and because of word of mouth and the ability to reference some of the key stakeholders and physician leaders, additional opportunities come with that. The other thing, and it might be a little early to talk about this, but you know, I exited industry employed employment in industry just recently, but I’ve already had opportunities come up to consult for industry because of all the relationships that I built and the fact that I did a really good job while I was in it. And those may end up being quite a bit more substantial than the ones that existed from the health system. And it all came from just always remembering that you have to present yourself well. You have to do good work. I do good work because I want to do good work. But there’s other ancillary benefits that come from that, just aside from just doing well in your employee role and growing that career ladder, so to speak. 

Corrie Sanders  33:07

I think that that’s honestly been an underlying theme throughout our conversation so far, is doing a great job in the position that you’re given and creating and cultivating those meaningful relationships and realizing your value within whatever company or institution, it is that you’re performing in and then being able to leverage that amount of skill and those relationships as you’re navigating through different chapters in your career. But also, I think that you’ve done a great job of not only maintaining those relationships, but tapping into mentors when you need to, and seeking guidance and advice on what you should do next, or people that have gone through this experience yourself, so you don’t feel like you’re moving through these decisions in a silo. You feel like you’ve got that level of support and level of knowledge where you’re able to confidently make a decision and pivot as needed. So I wanted to point out those underlying themes too, but now I want to dig into So you’ve now been in industry. You’re leveraging some of these relationships, but you’re also given a lot of flexibility to pursue some ancillary interests on the side. So you’ve now got your consulting business, and I want to dive too into some of your other the other ways, you’ve diversified your financial portfolio. So you started investing in real estate, and you’ve also started a business. So let’s talk about both of those things, when which one came first? How did that come about? I’ll kind of let you take the floor there with with how you’ve gotten to this, what seems to be like a three pronged financial diversification portfolio strategy.

Dr. Aaron Emmel  34:43

Sure. So I have always been, I would say an entrepreneur at heart, I mean, and that probably just comes from my nature. I never stop. I mean, I’m up hours before anybody else in the house. Just so I can think of ideas and do work. It’s not, you know, work directly related to the objectives I had as an employee or a consultant. So the wheels are always spinning. And, I mean, I had iterated a couple of things over the years. My first try was back in 2010 I started a business essentially to do medication, therapy, management services. We don’t need to get too deep into the details on that one learned a lot of lessons about you know, what you need to do to be successful. One of those being having a target market that’s interested in your service. But we could always revisit that if needed. The way I wanted to do it, in my mind, wasn’t one that was suited to the market at the time, which was a really important business lesson learned. I had started an analytics business too, as I was starting to do all of the health system quality stuff when I was still an employee to health system. Didn’t really have the bandwidth to do anything with that, but after working in industry for a year, things were going well. I loved the job I was doing well, as a family, we couldn’t believe what that was affording, in terms of just the flexibility and work life balance, the fact that I was able to perform so highly yet still have such a flexible schedule. And even with the travel, and at the time, I traveled a lot. I mean, I was trying to get out there and do really well on the role, but the flexibility of being present when I was home, oh my goodness. I mean, the time that I gained, you know, with my family, good quality time, just couldn’t believe how well that was going. But at the same time, I had this energy where I’m like, man, you know, I really have the bandwidth to do more. So I really saw the need to try something again. I said, Okay, well, what is my skill set? Where is there an opportunity in the market? And at the time, you know, it was the concept of online courses and stuff was a growing fad and kind of the side hustle industry, and I had read all those, you know, side hustle kind of books, and listened to podcasts and lean startup concepts and things like that. So I landed on, well, why don’t I develop an online course for something? And I tried to think of all of my hobbies and expertise, and, you know, really, where was there truly a market that I could attack. And I fell back to pharmacy. I said, Okay, you know, maybe I could create, like, a prep course for a pharmacy certification, like a board pharmacy specialties kind of thing. You know, there was already a few solutions out there, and that, to me, was probably a little more than I wanted to tackle in my mind. But then the one thing I did in my market research that stuck out to me was really an opportunity for pharmacy technician education, especially tailored towards helping somebody become a certified pharmacy technician. And there wasn’t a lot of competition specifically in that online market at the time, there were a couple players that had done a really good job, but I thought, you know, I’m so ambitious, and I always execute things really well, why don’t I get throw something together and give it a shot? So I spent about a year while I was employed, and I had a conversation with my employee and my direct line manager at the time. I said, Hey, I’m going to try to do this. We went through the official process of conflict of interest and all that. They allowed me to do it. So I built an online education program. I learned how to do computer code, I learned how to build and develop a website. I could we could have eight hours of a podcast of everything I’ve learned since in terms of running a business and operating a business in this kind of niche aspect. But, you know, I built the entire curriculum, I had a few people kind of advise me in terms of making sure that it was something that would meet standards for pharmacy technician education. That’s a whole other conversation as well. But as an online only program. It wasn’t something I was going to be able to get accredited by ASHP, but the pharmacy technician certification board didn’t have a limitation in providing just didactic online education. So I pursued that, built the curriculum, submitted everything into the PTCB, got the approval for the course to be recognized by them, to qualify people to take the pharmacy technician certification exam. And after a year of hard work, click the button to launch the website. And didn’t really have much of a marketing plan, other than learning things about search engine optimization and different digital advertisements you can do, and didn’t get much traction for a while, but after, you know, a lot of work in terms of trying to tune up the website and get more visibility on it, slowly started to gain some business to customer market share in terms of people finding the website and paying for the course to go on and get certified. And I did all that on the side, and I shouldn’t say side, because I learned real quick it was quite a commitment in the way that I wanted to do it, and that, I would say almost, kind of turned into my primary focus. At the same time, I wanted to meet all the obligations of being an employee, and I worked very hard for a few years to be able to do all that together, but here we are today, and I got myself through the consulting and the income from the business. Those two things alone are more than enough at the moment for me to just be able to do those and not be able and still be able real estate stuff as well.

Corrie Sanders  40:44

So that, and that’s a great lesson, I think, for viewers and listeners to hear, is that you really bootstrap the business together outside of your W2 job with, I mean, truly bootstrapping. I think a lot of pharmacists that make the pivot into entrepreneurship aren’t doing the level of detail with coding and SEO optimization and all these different things you had to do.

Dr. Aaron Emmel  41:04

I mean, bootstrap. I didn’t even count the hours that I put into this, but I did and it was with a true business owner mindset now and being in a completely different situation from a capital standpoint. I mean, that’s not always the best way to launch a business, but because I had the bandwidth and I just did it, I’m grateful I did, because not only was I able to do it at a relatively reasonable startup cost, but everything I learned along the process made me an extremely nimble business owner in this space, because now, I mean, I understand all these technical things. You know, I serve business to business clients now too. So I’ve got health systems and a few GPOs and educational institutions across the country that I’m doing group contracting with, and there’s a lot of vendor credentialing requirements that come from that. And now I know more about cyber and information security than I ever did before. I would have known all these things had not spent all the time to learn it as I was trying to figure out how to build and launch this.

Corrie Sanders  42:19

Which makes you even more valuable in a way that you probably never imagined.

Dr. Aaron Emmel  42:23

Over the years, that you know they want to do something similar and wanted guidance. I’ve had people ask me to be a business coach to help them be able to do that. I haven’t latched on to that because I feel at some point you know, you have to maintain some focus. I don’t want to throw too many things out there again. Yeah, it’s I would say my biggest take home that I can think of from the audience, other than just being brave enough to make tough decisions that you know are in your best interest, is to just always try to do things the best that you can, and do them in a sense too, that the other important lesson that I’ve learned is to do them for the right reasons, and that’s, you know, to be mission and vision focused, and to build genuine relationships with people, and to have a primary goal of helping other people more than anything else. And that was another mindset that I go back 20 years ago, where I’m focused on the money that wasn’t the right reason. I mean, I had stories I could tell you of some of the feedback I got from preceptors and, you know, education factor, educational faculty about, okay, do you really understand what the pharmacy role is supposed to be like? And I didn’t have enough of an altruistic mindset at the time, but I’ve literally built my career ever since then on the concept of trying to do the right thing for people. So do all that and you do it well, opportunities come. That’s one thing I’ve learned, yeah.

Corrie Sanders  44:00

And that’s a great, I mean, career lesson, but life lesson in general, too. And I want to back up just a little bit to make it clear. So you’re in this position where you’re doing some consulting, but you’re still within the industry, and the business that you built out on the side, or what became your full time business was Pharmacy Tech Scholar. So that’s what you’re building up this platform to ultimately provide education and certification courses to pharmacy technicians that can be purchased all online. So for our pharmacists that are listening, that do work with pharmacy technicians, I want to give you the opportunity to just elaborate a little bit more about this business. What is the goal of Pharmacy Tech Scholar, who are some potential clients and and how have you envisioned, you know, where the business is going in a way that’s understandable to the audience, and hopefully, if they need some of those services, is, how can they reach out to you.

Dr. Aaron Emmel  45:00

Awesome. I wasn’t even thinking of having any kind of talk here. But so the mission is simple. It’s to empower anybody to become a certified pharmacy technician. So the opportunity that I saw at the time, and the one that I believe in very strongly, this comes from my own financial experience as well is that there’s such a demand for pharmacy technicians right now, and there is a massive supply gap that exists today. It’s been going on for years now. I mean, I could I hear all these things from employers that contact me of how hard it is for them to find qualified pharmacy technicians, and there’s a major gap between from a pharmacy association perspective, on the type of training and preparation that you want for somebody to go out in the world and be a competent pharmacy technician and fulfill the level of scope of practice that role can provide and elevate, elevate the profession as a whole. It’s a lot of training and education. So you know, if you look at the ASHP accreditation model, as the gold standard for pharmacy technician education, which which I believe in, and I support, it is robust, and it’s extremely hard to attain that accreditation status. And if you’re not an employer, and you do this to recoup the cost of running that program, you got to charge quite a bit, whether you’re a vocational school or secondary educational institution, for somebody to go through a training program. And I just in my mind, it’s tough for me to see somebody invest, you know, the 1000s or 10s of 1000s of dollars that education might cost to get out and earn what a pharmacy technician earns, quite frankly. And there’s been a significant increase in the pharmacy technician wage, even over the past three years, if you look at the Bureau of Labor Statistics data. But it’s still not one that’s equitable in terms of what the outlay would would need to be for that level of education and training to go out and make that money. So I’m trying to envision the path for what I’ve done and being able to fulfill at least the didactic component of the education that a pharmacy technician needs at a very low cost. And the whole goal of this is to empower anybody to do it without any financial constraint. So my goal is that somebody can, as an individual, take our program, then go on to take the pharmacy technician certification exam and get their certified pharmacy technician status, which in most states is kind of the barrier to entry that are lower to be able to register and get out into the world and start to get some on the job training. So that’s kind of the path that I see from an individual standpoint. If somebody wants to be a pharmacy technician, that’s a really efficient path to take. You get your didactic education in a very inexpensive manner. You get your rubber stamp. So you can go out and get employed, and the employer is going to take the impotence to give you that experiential training that you need. So that’s kind of, if I frame it from the individual or the aspiring pharmacy technicians perspective. That’s the vision that I have for where we fit into their journey. Now, what I envision in terms of going forward, how, how do we how do I our business. How does our business deliver that service and help meet the standard that the pharmacy profession wants to see for pharmacy technicians? So especially with this audience, if it’s mainly pharmacy professionals, you know, my goal is for us to be able to fulfill the didactic component of a fully accredited training program which needs to include simulated, experiential training. We’ve done a really good job building a very interactive and active, didactic learning experience because, you know, we have a multimodal learning system in our learning management or multi multimodal experience in our learning management system, from, you know, video lectures to self study material to we provide all the readings as well at no cost, student discussion board, interactive messaging with with me. I mean, I’m on hours every day communicating with all the students. We’ve got self study activities. We’ve got, like, different educational games and these different h5p modules on the site. So it’s a it’s a really holistic student experience from a didactic standpoint, and integrating a lot of active learning and adult learning principles. So what I like to think is that we’ve built pretty much the best experience you could get from a self study, self paced, online, didactic perspective, that would be a really nice supplement for any holistic training program. So it alleviates the burden from the employer, essentially, if you think about an employer based training program that didactic components covered, and then you can focus just on the simulation. An experiential piece of that, and the students are already going to have a good background of that technology to be able to then move on to those types of activities. Go back to my time at the hospital, you know, in the state of Florida, which is kind of ironic, because that’s where I’m at. It’s one of the states that you know that’s not enough. You have to complete an ASHP accredited program, or a fully, you know, accredited educational institution program. You can’t just do an online program and get certified. But at the hospital, we didn’t have the bandwidth to go out and pursue ASHP accreditation, and we had a really hard time sourcing pharmacy technicians because of that, and I believe that the hospital still struggles with that. I’ve been trying to think about how to approach them, to work out some kind of combo deal, but yeah, so that’s kind of what I’d say, is we can offer what I personally feel is the best didactic experiences you can get from an online self study program.

Corrie Sanders  50:58

It sounds like a really robust experience and a really, you know, detail oriented, hands on experiences that has a lot a lot of thought put behind it. I love, I think it’s so ironic, not only that you’re in Florida with whatever restrictions may exist for the technicians, but I love that you had worked your way so far from community pharmacy and then ultimately reflecting back to a service that can totally help community pharmacy, not only the inpatient setting too, with recruiting technicians, but in a way that can really serve the pharmacy industry as a whole with that gap in the market, and really seizing the product market fit for that specific opportunity with Pharmacy Tech Scholar. So once you’ve got that up and running as your side hustle, that’s now become a full time job at this point, when do you lean into real estate and divesting even further? Is that before or after the Pharmacy Tech Scholar component leveraging some of the other consulting salary or your salary as a hospital employee? What did that step look like with diversification of your finances and just in general, can you help paint a better picture of when you reached into some of these other avenues?

Dr. Aaron Emmel  52:07

Yeah, excellent question. And again, we don’t have enough time to get into all my financial thoughts and ideas at this point, but I will say I thought about investing in real estate probably starting about 2018, 2019, I didn’t really have the capital to do much at the time, and I’ve got a lot of opinions too, about all the, you know, flashy real estate podcasts and ideas about all these crafty ways to invest in Real Estate. But I started to build my education around that time, probably way too much. So I certainly suffered from analysis paralysis. So I mean, I probably consumed 50 to 100 books on real estate investing build all these financial models on the side, because I’m a geek like that. But it wasn’t until really a couple of years ago, that I started to set some real goals, because I didn’t really have the capital to do much until then, at least in addition to all the other investments I had, I didn’t want to be able to pull out any money that I already had invested. And the rationale in my mind, was, ultimately, I want to get to a point where it’s just the investments that that fund, you know, the expenses that we have as a family, not because I don’t want to work or do anything anymore, but that, to me, puts us in a position where we can weather the storm no matter what happens. And I just don’t think any of us know what the world’s going to look like in five to 10 years. Five to 10 years or 20 years or 30 years, and to me, the more I can do to put our family in a situation where we’ve got that buffer. I’m doing my job. So the problem that I saw was that most of my or all of my investments, are in these tax protected vehicles that come with substantial penalties if you tap into them. So, you know, 401K, 403b, 529, plans for the kids health savings accounts, I had built up a pretty good nest egg, I would say, for my age as of a few years ago. But they weren’t producing any cash flow I could realize. So I made the decision on my mind that all the excess income that I have now, I’m just going to start investing in the real estate assets that ultimately I can get to the point where they’re cash flowing. And it’s cash flow that I can realize. And there’s some tax advantages to that too. So there’s not like, a huge additional tax burden that would come from that. In fact, I’ve got a situation this, this last tax season, where it was highly advantageous the way I did a couple of the investments, but that was the thought process. I didn’t execute my first real estate investment until early last year. And help focus me, if we need to stop me and ask me questions If you need but I went through all the different asset classes of real estate in my research on where can I put money in a real estate investment vehicle that’s going to produce both a very safe return overall and will cash flow? And I had a hard time finding anything, and maybe because I didn’t have the bandwidth to do a ton of lead generation. I mean, the to really generate, you know, major opportunity leads is a lot of work and a lot of investment in marketing. And I’m doing all this on the side. I don’t want to create another full time job for myself. And, you know, I couldn’t find anything in my area on the MLS, whether it was a multifamily or single family residence that pInned out from an investment standpoint, that would meet my metric criteria, I started looking into commercial assets, same thing with everything that was on LoopNet or that you could publicly find for commercial properties. And it wasn’t until I met somebody to become one of my best friends, whose kid was in my my youngest daughter’s class, and told him about my aspirations to invest in real estate. And he was a commercial real estate developer, so we started bouncing a ton of ideas around, and made the decision last year to do a couple of investments out of town in South Carolina for some commercial properties. So I did a couple of investments up there as a partner in a venture LLC for two retail complexes in South Carolina. And both of those, and these are pretty large outlay what many people would consider to be high risk investments, but they were such great opportunities at such a low acquisition cost that there was so much buffer for things to go wrong, and things have gone wrong, and even though they’ve gone wrong, you know, we’re still standing to make a substantial double digit rate of return, whether we refinance those this year or dispose of them in the coming months, the coming years. Well, so lots of thoughts. I mean, there’s so many things I could discuss about that, but ultimately, I made the decision to do this more as a passive partner, because I didn’t have the time or bandwidth to really pursue an active real estate investment with a strategy that was going to generate an investment that performed well from the outset. I think there’s a big misperception in my opinion, of people that think they can just go out and buy a house or a duplex and it’s a good investment. If you’re looking at the market, and whether you’re paying all cash or you’re leveraging it, especially these current interest rate environments, you’re probably going to lose money, or you’re probably at least in the near term, without knowing where inflation is going to go, you’re better off putting that money even in a money market account right now, unless you’ve got a really sound investment and you really understand the capital requirements of what you’re doing.

Corrie Sanders  58:08

And again, it’s so nice to hear that one you had already kind of financially leveraged, you know, with all these different forms of income, the ability to start investing in real estate a little bit later in your career, but ultimately, the ability to do it in the way that you did came from another relationship that you had made and some more conversations that you had had with people that are like minded. So I want to point to a couple different things, and then we’ll try to summarize it all up and with some clean takeaways. But I think overall, just listening to your journey one, you are great at doing different ways of self reflection. I feel like you’ve got a good head on your shoulders with where am i right now and where do I want to be? And then, if those two things aren’t aligning, for whatever reason, you’re another great example of you know, there’s no perfect time for a shift. There’s no black or white idea of when you have to be a certain thing in the pharmacy profession, but being able to have a shift in mindset or a shift in your career at any point in time, just based on what feels right and doing the right thing and working really hard has opened yourself up for a lot of different opportunities. So to summarize things up, we started in community pharmacy. We pivoted to that inpatient setting, and then ultimately switching into industry, and once you had some financial leverage, really working on diversifying that financial portfolio, so then reaching into real estate, looking at some of those hard and soft skills that you had developed from different points in your career and leveraging those in a way that was financially advantageous, but being able to eventually walk away from a W2 job because of these different diversifications that you had built with both the business, Pharmacy Tech Scholar and then some consulting. So anything else that you know you want to highlight in your career that you think would be useful to our listeners that, before we summarize it even further?

Dr. Aaron Emmel  1:00:10

My goodness, there’s so many things. And again, if I, if I take your kind words about my my ability for reflection, I would say the other important lesson I’ve learned is to have, at least in my own history, the need to have a higher degree of respect for everybody else around you and the things that they know. So that was my other lesson that I’ve learned over time, and I’m on a continual path with this, is, you know, when I got out into the hospital and here I am. I think I’m so smart, I didn’t even do a residency. I mean, I know everything right, and I had that mindset. I was so judgmental if somebody didn’t review something, or they let this medication get verified, or, you know, I assume none of the physicians knew anything about anything they were prescribing, but I have since come to learn that I don’t know as much as I think I know. That’s still true today. I’m always trying to learn more, but I missed out, I think, on a lot of opportunities to learn from other people early on, because I had that brazen mindset, and I would say it served me well as the years have gone by to have a more grounded perspective that other people know a lot more than I thought they did, and probably more than I do, and the ability to learn from other people and having that mindset has really served me well. So that was my own personal thing. That’s probably too many of your readers, but I would say that to me, and you noted too, with all these inflection points in my journey has had just as much, if not more, to do with the other people around me than it’s had to do, and I definitely come to understand that better now, and that circle could have been much bigger, And I could have learned much more had I been a little more introspective, I would say, and empathetic as well with everybody else in my space.

Corrie Sanders  1:02:10

No, that’s so beautifully said. Everyone’s got something to teach you. It’s just whether you want to see it or not. And the last question Aaron that I’ll ask, we’ve talked about a lot of different resources that you tapped into, so mentorship from a very early point in your career, you talked about consuming a lot of books and a lot of podcasts. Is there any other useful vehicle in your entrepreneurship journey that you want to point out to the listeners? Anything that you tapped into, or maybe your most valuable resource to this date.  

Dr. Aaron Emmel  1:02:44

Letting go of the fear of failure, I would say that’s a big one. And I’ve failed quite a bit, and I continue to fail, but every time you do that, it’s an opportunity to learn something, and don’t be afraid to put yourself out there. That’s the other thing that I still struggle with today, we spoke before we started recording, about, you know, I’ve recognized the need to be more present socially, at least in terms of social media and stuff. And it’s got more to do with my, I guess, lack of like excitement around being that publicly visible. But if you want to succeed, I mean, you have to have a brand you know. You’ve got to be out there. You can’t be afraid of what other people think you know. And that’s something that I try all the time to let go of, and I still need to work on. It’s so important. If you’re going to be putting something out there that’s new, or putting something out there that’s going to compete, you’ve got to be fully behind it and fully visible, and you’ve got to be willing to just look stupid if you think that’s the way you’re going to look, but just put yourself out there.

Corrie Sanders  1:03:47

Well, on that note, Aaron, if people want to find you, what’s the best way for them to get in touch with you?

Dr. Aaron Emmel  1:03:53

You can find me on LinkedIn, it’s AaronEmmel. No period. My tag on LinkedIn. I just now put up my own personal website again from many years back. So themedicineguy.com There’s no content on there as of this minute, but hopefully in the coming weeks, we’ll have some I’ll have some stuff on there as well. And that’s also my Twitter/X handles @themedicine guy. Haven’t been tweeting since 2020 but again, I’m going to try to get active.

Corrie Sanders  1:04:21

Well, that sounds great, and there’s this has been such a beautiful conversation, I feel like there’s a lot of great life lessons worked into a lot of this professional journey. So wanted to say thank you again for taking the time to be here with YFP, and wish you all the best. Thanks, Aaron.

Dr. Aaron Emmel  1:04:37

Thank you. Corrie. I really appreciate it.

Tim Ulbrich  1:04:41

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offered to buy or sell any investment or related financial products, we urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyzes expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week. 

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YFP 362: Fatherhood, Family, and FIRE with Author Cory Jenks, PharmD


Cory Jenks, PharmD, author, speaker and comedian talks about his newest book on fatherhood titled, “So I Guess I’m a Dad Now.”

Episode Summary

On this episode, Tim talks with Cory Jenks, PharmD, a comedian, pharmacist, author, and speaker who helps create more adaptable, empathetic, and humanizing healthcare experiences. Cory shares his journey of writing his second book ‘I Guess I’m a Dad Now’, why he chose to write a book on fatherhood, the strategies he has employed in his journey of being a dad to three kids ages six and under, and why he and his wife Cassie used a Coast FIRE approach for their financial plan.

About Today’s Guest

Cory Jenks is a convention breaking pharmacist, comedian, author, speaker, and dad from Tucson Arizona. Since earning his Doctor of Pharmacy degree in 2011 from the University of South Carolina, he has been on a mission to help people get off medications through lifestyle. Since 2013, he has taught, coached and performed improv comedy for thousands of people. And since 2022 when his 1st book Permission to Care: Building a Healthcare Culture that Thrives in Chaos, came out, he has been making readers laugh out loud while reading.  His newest book, I Guess I’m a Dad Now, provides practical and hilarious tips, tricks, and stories to help new dads earn that “#1 Dad” shirt they will inevitably be gifted on Father’s Day. With the little spare time he has, Cory enjoys harvesting rainwater, raising chickens, and attempting to play various sports with variable success. He is currently earning his Master’s Degree in Dad Jokes with the help of his daughter and two sons.

Key Points from the Episode

  • Fatherhood and new book release with comedian pharmacist. [0:00]
  • Fatherhood, healthcare, and intentional living as a pharmacist. [3:42]
  • Fatherhood, self-deprecation, and humor. [7:39]
  • The importance of being physically fit for dads, using examples from the speaker’s personal experience. [11:51]
  • Daily routines for physical and mental well-being as a busy dad. [17:43]
  • Parenting challenges and finding balance between work and family life. [21:56]
  • Balancing work and family life, prioritizing presence and play with children. [25:59]
  • Community and support for dads, emphasizing the importance of having a tribe for mental health and personal growth. [31:40]
  • Fatherhood, finances, and intentional spending. [35:01]
  • Financial planning and saving for a couple with different saving mindsets. [39:05]
  • Parenting, financial planning, and work-life balance. [42:20]

Episode Highlights

“And I think that with what I’m doing with this fatherhood book, and what I do with my other speaking, it’s, it’s not just healthcare in comedy, it’s it’s being willing, able, and I’ll use the word brave enough, to break the conventions to live that for life, too.” – Cory Jenks [6:13]

“Humans are humans regardless of their credentials or degree and you can go a long way just living those simple tenets. So a lot more showing than telling, which is great. Set a great example and your kids will do what you do as well.” -Cory Jenks [14:30]

“My vision as a dad is to help my kids fulfill their full potential being physically fit, in addition to mentally fit. Is this an important part and being financially fit as well.” – Cory Jenks [17:26]

“Playing with your kids is just so much fun. And I think the simplicity of that wins out over almost every complicated vacation, app, toy, tool, tech thing you want to do.” – Cory Jenks [31:14]

“I think for a lot of dads who I’ve talked to, they had these like relief moments of like I’m not feeling who feels like this. I’m not alone in this. And guys are not known for our open communication. So if you can find a real life tribe, if it’s an online community, but it’s really supportive and productive, that’s great too. And then sometimes reading a book that makes you laugh and realize okay, I’m not the only idiot dad that does dumb stuff sometimes like okay, if Cory did that, then you don’t feel so bad if you made that mistake, too.” – Cory Jenks [34:18]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich  00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I welcome Cory Jenks on to the show a comedian pharmacist, author and speaker who helps create more adaptable, empathetic and humanizing healthcare experiences. During the show Cory and I dig into his journey of writing his second book, I Guess I’m a Dad Now, why he chose to write a book on fatherhood, the strategies he has employed in his journey of being a dad to three kids six and under, and why he and his wife Cassie, used a Coast FIRE approach to their financial plan. 

Tim Ulbrich  00:36

Now, before we jump into my interview with Cory, I have a hard truth for you to hear. Making a six figure income is not a financial plan. Yes, you’ve worked hard to get where you are today. Yes, you’re earning a good income. But have you ever wondered, Am I on track to retire? How do I prioritize and fund all these competing financial goals that I have? How do I plan financially for big upcoming life events and changes? Whether that be moving, having a child, changing jobs, getting married or retiring? Or perhaps why am I not as far along financially at this point in my career, as I think I should be? One of the answers may be that your six figure income, while good is not a financial plan. As a pharmacist, you have an incredible tool in your toolbox. And that’s your salary. But without a vision and a plan that good income will only go so far. That’s in part why we started Your Financial Pharmacist back in 2015. At YFP, we support pharmacists at every stage of their careers to take control their finances, reach their financial goals, and build wealth through comprehensive fee only financial planning and tax planning. Our team of professionals, including our Certified Financial Planners and our CPA, works with pharmacists all across the US to help our clients set their future selves up for success while living a rich life today. If you’re ready to see how YFP can support you on your financial journey, you can learn more by visiting yourfinancialpharmacist.com/learn. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/learn. 

Tim Ulbrich  02:09

Cory. Glad to have you here. Glad to have this time together.

Cory Jenks  02:12

It’s always special with you, Tim. I was just saying before we went live, you’re super generous, super helpful, super supportive. And as a pharmacist and a dad and anyone in this community, you really lift up a lot of us. So thank you. You have been buttered up. Let’s go.

Tim Ulbrich  02:30

Well, I have been looking forward to this. Fatherhood is one of my favorite topics to talk about. We’ve got a couple neat interviews lined up, including yours. My dad’s coming on the show to do an interview next week leading up to Father’s Day, you released a brand new book, I guess I’m a dad. Now we’re going to talk extensively about that. I got my copy, which I feel super special to get a copy of this. I had a chance to read it. I think it was in the near final draft. It was really darn close several months ago and you just did a awesome job. We’ll talk more about that here in a little bit. And we’ve had you on the podcast as interviewed previously, Episode 134. You and your better half Cassie came on the show to talk about your journey as a FIRE enthusiast Financial Independence Retire Early. We had you back on episode 196. You talked about how to use improv comedy. We’ll talk about your role as a comedian to create a better healthcare system. This episode, this interview, we’re gonna take a little bit of a different angle centered around fatherhood. And again, your new book, I Guess. I’m a Dad Now. And before we get too far into the book and the discussion around fatherhood, which I’m confident is going to be rich, give us a brief overview for those that don’t know who you are in the work that you’ve been doing. What has Cory Jenks been up to over the last several decades? Who is this guy?

Cory Jenks  03:52

Oh my gosh, yeah, I don’t make sense. I’ll preface it with that. I get a lot of introductions. And I’ve literally can, I’ll keep this PG but I am a pharmacist. I live in Tucson, Arizona. So logically, I went to the pharmacy school at the University of South Carolina, go Gamecocks. And I moved back to Tucson in 2011 did a residency here at the VA, worked there for a decade plus. And I’ve done everything in pharmacy – inpatient, outpatient ambulatory care. Kind of kind of love the ambulatory care world 2022, I left the VA and worked for another company now doing ambulatory care, but going part time, and if you go back to the Coast FIRE episode with Cassie and I and my wife kind of explaining why we did that, because part of that is I’m a dad of 3- six and under: 6, 4, 1 basically. So drinking from the firehose, the life there. And beyond that I’ve been doing improv comedy and comedy in general for over a decade, which is not a normal pharmacist combination, but there are a lot of us out there. And so I do that and have been really working on reaching out to healthcare organizations about applying these skills, which are not just being funny, that are listening, empathy, communication You wrote a paper in 2019 kind of talking about pharmacy residencies, deficiencies or how our GPA is not measuring everything we need to be successful and it really dovetailed nicely with the start of what I was trying to do. Because I realized that was never going to be on a Saturday Night Live so I can go, please. Yet. Yeah, maybe I will get really famous. And I will then host who knows, I will not limit myself. So yeah, so now I, you know, I’m basically a convention breaking pharmacist, I get people off medicines when I work. In my practice. I do a lot of diet/nutrition counseling. I applied comedy to health care, which is not a normal thing. And now I’m a two time author. So that’s my other book is over my shoulder here, Permission to Care Building a Healthcare Culture that Thrives in Chaos came out in 2022. So if you’re not a dad, and you work in healthcare, and you’re like, I don’t need a dad book. You can get that book too. So, yeah, I think that I get uncomfortable talking about all the stuff I love. Not all, but the stuff I do because I don’t love the narcissistic view Millennials often have of like, I’m doing all these things! But it’s just, I like doing lots of stuff. And if we get into fatherhood, my dad is always someone who’s couldn’t sit still, my grandfather was always someone who couldn’t sit still. And I think Jenk’s men just like doing stuff. So I do lots of stuff that doesn’t always fit into one category. And I think that with what I’m doing with this fatherhood book, and what I do with my other speaking, it’s, it’s not just healthcare in comedy, it’s it’s being willing, able, and I’ll use the word brave enough, to break the conventions to live that for life too.

Tim Ulbrich  06:27

It’s interesting, Cory, you often say, break the conventions, which I see you very much as that person. I also see you as a very intentional person. That’s the theme, the word that keeps coming to mind for me, whether it’s as a father or husband, in your financial journey. Obviously, we’re going to talk about fatherhood today and your physical fitness. We’ll talk about the tie between that and fatherhood as well today, but I see a thread of intentionality and really encouraging motivating inspire in other people in their own journey. And speaking of intentionality, it takes intention, it takes work to write a book, this being your second one. And you and I both know that when you’re self publishing a book, there’s a big investment of time and money and it ain’t about the money. And so my first question is, why write the book? What were you hoping to accomplish when you sat down to write, I Guess I’m a Dad, Now.

Cory Jenks  07:18

I had too much time, money and sanity, it was like I need to throw…. So part of the part of the inspiration for the book came when I when I cut my hours to help watch the kids a couple days a week, hanging out with them at the park and watching other parents and dads interact, or in my case, like not interact with them. Like being on their phones being distracted. And I’m not going to pretend I’m a perfect dad. And then the audio version of this book, my brother-in-law’s an audio. He’s a musician that has a studio so he helped engineer it. And he said, you know, Cory, you know, this is a parenting book, I would expect to have a lot less like self deprecation. I’m like, No, I don’t want to be someone who thinks they know it all because I know they’re lying. So I’m not going to say I’ve never been on my phone around my kids. But seeing a lot of the checkouted dad’s just sort of started sparked an interest and perspective in me of like, there’s a joke there. And I literally wrote a joke in notes phone of like, you know, first idea for the book was, when you’re at the park, make sure you’re not looking at your phone. Yes, I wrote this as I was on my phone. So if you don’t heed this you have you will have wasted the fact that I ignored my kids for five minutes like writing this down. And then from there, it just sort of snowballed into other observations about fatherhood, like my own, our own struggles as parents because I do this along with Cassie, my wife, and observing other dads good, bad, my own shortcomings, my own wins. And basically then trying to turn everything into like a joke so that it’s more easily digestible. Because I think the other impetus for the book was reading, you know, talking about intentionality, like we read some parenting books, and that can be heavy that can be boring. With the acknowledgement that, you know, if dads don’t do our job, like society kind of collapses. So it’s really important job. And I start the book off with some statistics that show that, but also like, if it’s not fun, funny, dudes aren’t gonna want to read it. So how can I turn this message into something that’s easily digestible, realizing that…I don’t know if you’re a Seinfeld fan, but I have a friend that’s like, we could just talk in Seinfeld quotes for the next hour. Yeah, like we could try to give me like two steps of the Krebs cycle, which we had to learn like seven times, we couldn’t do it. But we could go through Seinfeld quotes because when it’s funny, you’re going to remember it. And so that’s kind of the other goal with this book is using that comedy side to turn it to funny, but also using that pharmacist analytical brain to analyze something and sort of flip it in a way that’s like, okay, yeah, that’s true. It’s funny. He made fun of himself or some other unfortunate dad that I observed, and I will not make that same mistake.

Tim Ulbrich  09:43

Yeah, it’s interesting. You mentioned that self deprecation. I thought the humility was there throughout you know, the acknowledgement. You gave the phone example but many others throughout the book where you’re in it, right, six, four, and one. It’s not like you’re waiting until a far off date in the future when you can look back with the glossy version of what was reality, right? You are in the thick of it. And I think as you’re writing in the thick of it, in the moment, it allows for it to be very real, very authentic. And I think it’s just natural, the farther we get removed from it, I know I feel this way with my oldest who’s about to be 13. Like, those memories become fuzzy right over time. And I love the authenticity. I love the realness of it as you wrote it.

Cory Jenks  10:27

Yeah. One is, as you get further from it, the hardness kind of fades, which I think is our nature designs it. Your youngest is what six?

Tim Ulbrich  10:27

Going to be five soon. 

Cory Jenks  10:33

Yeah, so if you, if you really remember how hard it was with your first three, you’d be like, I’m never gonna do this again. But nature is like, you know, we need more people. So I think it’s the same with anything like you look back into pharmacy school wasn’t that bad or high school wasn’t that uncomfortable? Like, no, it was terrible. It felt terrible at the time. And so the subtitle of this is:  A Humorous Handbook for Newish Dads Who Don’t Want to Suck. So it really is for that thinking about kids up to about age five, which is when I finished writing the initial draft. And so and I say it in the book, like, if you want advice for raising a teen, I couldn’t tell you because I’ve never raised the teen. Tim, you could write that book in a couple of years, but I’ve not been in it. So you know, the good joke is like the next volume will be like how to raise from like six to 11, which is like, from what I hear is like a really golden age of kids, because they’re not quite angry teens, but they’re, like, have enough skills, mental and physical to really make the most of those moments that teens won’t be great. And not that having little kids isn’t great, but like a newborn can’t play catch with you. And the other day, like yesterday, we actually played catch with my oldest kid, like he’s able to catch and throw. Like, I was like, Oh my gosh, I was expecting way too much when he was three. Yeah, but it’s kind of a cool moment. Not that you don’t love them when they’re younger. But like when you if they’re able to do more stuff with you, as a dad, you know, I don’t I don’t grow it, I didn’t birth it. Now I can kind of help shape and shape them, he, my kids. ,

Tim Ulbrich  11:57

You know, I was thinking about especially as we we get ready to celebrate Father’s Day here in a couple of weeks that you know how we show up as a dad. And this can be the good, the bad, the ugly, but how we show up as a dad so often stems from how our dad showed up. And you know, they did the best that they could and obviously how they showed up was largely from how their dad showed up. And you know, based on the dedication, where you give a shout out to your dad, I suspect that he’s had a big influence on you and your journey of fatherhood. So tell us about Papa Jenks.

Cory Jenks  12:29

Mark. Mark, was, I don’t know if he’s, he’s, he’s here. Like we’re doing this live as we record it on LinkedIn. He’s on LinkedIn. He likes to comment on my posts, but he still teaches he’s a PE teacher. He teaches at the University of Arizona now in the College of Ed, but he’s, you know, I think he was someone that really showed by example. He’s from a small upstate New York town. You know a few things about upstate New York. His parents, my grandparents were like, when that generation was called the silent generation. I think they named it after Harry and June, like not that they didn’t love you. But they just dinner was very quiet because we’re eating and that’s in my a lot of feelings talk not a lot of like warmth, I love you love us, but a lot of showing love by you know, all the memories I have with my grandfather – building things, having those memories together. And then my dad, like he loved me, he was always there to support me. And unfortunately for him, like he was a great athlete, played college football. I was not that good. But he still supported me, helped coach me. And I think that the big things I got out of it from him were how to work hard. How and we talked about finances like he would teach, he was a teacher. So in the summer he was off but he would teach swimming lessons, he would coach to earn extra money. And I remember going with him to the place he taught swim lessons because they had a place where I could play and he’s like, alright, well, this is our vacation this summer. Like those little things stuck with me. And he tells tells me about how grandpa would change the oil in their own car instead of taking it he’s like, Well, that’s a dinner instead of paying someone the money to do it. So I think he really showed me the value of hard work and utilizing those skills to support yourself and not being afraid to you know, we say side hustle now. Millennials and Gen Z is all about the side hustle like my dad and grandfather were the original side hustlers. They just didn’t call it that. So, taught me the value of hard work and then the message I write about in the book is he was very supportive in a pragmatic way. Like I would be you know, I’m going to pharmacy school, Dad,  this is healthcare. This isn’t just teaching kids dodgeball. Okay, this is big time stuff. He’s like just show up on time, work hard and be pleasant. It’ll be fine. But it’s healthcare, Dad! And then every step of the way through undergrad pharmacy school, residency, I was like, oh, yeah, you’re right. Humans are humans regardless of their credentials or degree and you can go a long way just living those simple tenets. So a lot more showing than telling, which is great. So set a great example of your kids will do what you do as well because you know, he played racquetball golf, like doing all the same activities as him too. so inspires me to try to make sure that instead of telling my kids stuff, I’m showing them.

Tim Ulbrich  14:55

Cory, when I think of you, you know the words that come to mind if we do word association with Cory, right I think pharmacist, I think FIRE enthusiast, I think comedian, author, speaker, I think fitness guru as well. I know that’s an important part of your life journey. And you brought that into the book and chapter two, you talk about the connection between your passion for fitness and health and why that’s important, as soon to be, although I would, I would argue whether it’s someone who’s expecting or thinking about having kids or, you know, your 10 plus years into it, it’s a priority, and they’re very much is a connection. Tell us more about what that connection is, and why you felt like that was important bring into the book.

Cory Jenks  15:35

There’s sort of the celebration of DadBod, which is sort of like, Oh, I’m, you know, my wife’s pregnant, and I’m gonna, you know, look like her too. You kind of let yourself go. And I don’t think that body shaming is great, I think they’re a little shame might be good. Like, because kids are energetic. They’re, they want to keep going. And I just see, so often, kids with fathers who are out of shape that are just like play with me, play with me that they’re just like, oh, I can’t, I can’t. And if you if you don’t have like, I there are, if you play the comparison game, there’s always gonna be someone who’s way fitter than you and way less fit than you. But if you are able to keep up with your kids have some muscle like, like every night that kids fall asleep in a different room, and I have to carry them to the other room, like my four year old is 40 pounds, and he’s on the other side of this full size bed, like, there’s some functional fitness picking up 40 pounds and lugging it across the hall. So if you really want to be there for your kids, as a dad, I think it’s non-negotiable to be in shape for to be there for them. And also to set the example because I can’t tell you the number of kids I grew up playing league or soccer or whatever, that their parents are very out of shape. And they’re like, you will play sports and the kids like, well, you’re not doing anything, right. Like, you know what your words are hollow with your actions or not. So and setting the example like my dad was a PE teacher, so he was always active, he hit me, he’s, he’s such a, I’ll use the term like adorable nerd about this stuff. So send me articles about like, you know, if you get 10,000 steps a day, you look five extra years, or like what you know, and it’s great. Like, that’s what a great example, the set and then we see that with our kids that for my six year olds birthday, he got a pull up bar for the door. So he looks like climbs and hangs and we play, you know, we’re active. And it doesn’t mean that you have to play sports or be in the sports. But I think that being physically active is non-negotiable. And I think that if you want to help your kids fulfill their greatest potential, which is sort of I got asked this on a podcast the other day, like what’s your like, kind of vision as a dad is to help my kids fulfill their full potential being physically fit, in addition to mentally fit. Is this an important part and financially fit as well. Yeah. Yeah, getting getting getting your gear in shape. And ignoring the siren song of the dad bod is is important to, in my opinion.

Tim Ulbrich  17:43

Yeah, the connection you just made is interesting. And we often talk about helping our kids to be the best version of themselves, which requires a ton of time, attention and understanding who they are. And each one of them is very unique. And I think that becomes a little bit more evident. Like as I think about where my boys are at in age, I’m seeing it more and more with my older three. And it takes time and patience. But what’s underneath that is interesting what you’re saying, right? Someone’s physical health, mental health, we know that as adults that how critical those things are. When those are humming, we are more likely to be bringing the best version of ourselves, right? We feel better, we feel more engaged. We’re better in relationships. I mean, there’s such a stemming effect from that, which is a good segue. I’d like to kind of peek into the author’s brain here. Like for you, physical health, obviously a priority. I know emotional health, spiritual health, financial health other things. What are the routines that you have employed in your day? Or your week, however, you want to frame this that have allowed you to bring the best version of Cory every day? What are those habits?

Cory Jenks  18:45

Yeah, this is this is the part where you’re, you might not want to hear all this because it’s hard for some to hear, but I get up early. Like so with kids, they’re either gonna get up early, or they’re gonna stay up late. So you so adjusting around my kids schedule, and I get up around most days between like four and five o’clock in the morning. And that first 15 minutes is usually some version of like brushing teeth, my eyes half opened and like getting chores done around the house, like prepping the day like getting getting lunches ready, like my wife and I make these like collagen gelatin beverages. So like getting those all teed up so that when she wakes up, we can just hit the button and we’re going. So taking care of my spouse, that’s a big part of it. I tried to sit quietly for like, even just like two to two to five minutes, just to have a few moments of just trying to like breathe a little bit. And then two days a week, I’m doing a 15 minute quick, quick and dirty fitness routine, which if you’re listening or watching this, if you buy the book, I’ll send you my my routine. It’s part of my preorder bonus, but it’s already out so I’m just gonna send it to you if you want it. It’s just a very simple short routine because with three kids I don’t have time to hit the gym a ton, and then two days a week it’s it’s like going for a run or doing some some HIIT like some sort of like, I don’t know what interval interval training or something like that and I have a father in my neighborhood that we go for a run once a week. So helping, you know, helping bring another dad into this fold, you know, he says I hate getting up in the morning. And that’s why I do it. So do that, if I’m able to, you know, a couple days a week, it’ll be some writing in the morning, because I write a newsletter and then trying to promote myself on Twitter or LinkedIn trying to come up with something there. And then a couple days a week, I’m at work. And then the other days, I’m with my kids, and just try and be with them. And then in the evening, it’s winding down, get them to bed, if I’m, if I’m humming real good, I just go out and read a book or strum a guitar or, or do something like that. And if it’s not, then I’ll try to check it up notification, I’m turning 30 minutes into warmholing. So I’m just like you, everybody gets stuck on the computer. So and then I mean, foodwise, if you want that part, too, I mean, from fitness side, I eat a lot of protein, a lot of veggies, not a lot of carbs, and fats, and don’t overthink it. So that’s, that’s the main thing. And then just always checking in from a from a from a relationship side of it, checking in with my wife, making sure she’s taken care of, her needs are taken care of. Because she bears the brunt of our baby at night. So she’s, you know, and on top of all this, I’m Cassie jokes that there’s a Laundry Fairy and a Dinner fairy. Because Dishwasher Fairy because I’m the one that does all that. So fathers are not off the hook there. Started doing a lot of the chores around the house, because she does a lot of the other stuff that I can’t do. And then usually at the end of the day, our joke is we say good morning, and we’re trying to lay down a bed at night because we’re so so busy. So it’s going to probably depending where you’re at in life, if you’re a dad or not, or even if you’re not a dad, I think having some of these routines is good. And I a big part of it for me is simplicity. And I know just spent three minutes rambling about stuff, but you know, there’s people are like you get up you do 15 minutes of journaling, you just seven minutes of breath work, you’d look at the sun with your eyes closed, you look at it without like, Yeah, but then your kid wakes up at 5:15 with a bloody nose and all that’s out the window. So how can you maintain that good day without having all these things that are locked in place.

Tim Ulbrich  21:56

That’s exactly where my mind was going. I’m so glad you said it. Because as I think about my own journey here in Utah, I have found the morning routine is a non negotiable for me. And granted, I’m a morning person, I’m not a four or 4:30 morning person, but I’m a morning person. And I’m grateful for the flexibility to really start the first couple hours of the day. And as my boys would be gotten gotten older, it’s more predictable, right. But it wasn’t always predictable. And there are seasons where it is not predictable. And I think my encouragement to those listening is to find the system and the routine that works for you. That gives you enough structure that really helps move the needle on the things that matter the most but also enough flexibility that, hey, one season looks very different than another and you can be humming. And then a month later, it’s like why aren’t my kid ever sleeping, I’m not getting up at 4am. And I got to shift some of this. I’m a morning person, but I gotta shift this. And I think sometimes if there’s too much rigidity, especially for those with young kids, sleep is variable kids get sick, we know this happens, right? That’s when we feel defeated, all of a sudden the guilt comes in. And that’s not productive, you know, in any way, shape or form. So I’m a big fan of like, hey, find, the system and the routine, but especially for those with young kids, like give yourself some grace and some flexibility that things are gonna change. It’s gonna happen.

Cory Jenks  23:13

Yeah, I liked the things you said there, the seasons. I think that’s something that Cassie and I talk a lot about us that, season X where we I mean, we had a newborn, a five year old, a three year old and it’s just chaos. What we found works is what is the minimum we both need, like we talked about, you know, you and I have talked about, like filling your bucket every time like, what’s the minimum you need, and Cassie knows that I need like 15 minutes to lift weights and like a 30 minute walk. And I’m like in a much better like she’ll say you need to go for your walk or you need to go for your run. And I know that if I get that she knows if I get that like I’m good to go for the day I like I just need physical movement. I mean I’m a pharmacist, I work at a job where I sit like hunched over all day, so I need some of that movement. But for everyone’s going to be different. And like you say that the rigidity and there’s you don’t have to feel guilty about taking care of yourself as a parent. Your kids are pretty resilient. Like that doesn’t mean you ignore them for eight hours while you watch Netflix. But it does mean that if you need to like they watch a show for 30 minutes while you walk or do you just even if it’s clean the dishes and or whatever in your house. It clears your mind so much so and then also to stay off Instagram because every father Instagram account that I was trying to use to like promote my book just makes you feel like the worst dad ever. So just ignore those and you’ll be good to go.

Tim Ulbrich  24:31

Yeah, one of the greatest challenges great, I think a parenthood is being present, truly present in the moment and the experience that’s in front of you, you know, not cut up in analyzing the past worrying about what may or may not come in the future. Easier said than done, off course and we’re not going to get this perfect. But you talk about this in the book in chapter six. All it takes is being president let me read the first couple paragraphs and then I’ve got a question for you. You say, “A lot of newish dads wonder if they will be ‘enough’ for their kids. Will they make enough money to support their family? Will they provide enough emotional support? Will they be enough for their kids to love them, or at least tolerate them? To make this happen, dads can sometimes go overboard working, trying to pry the feelings out of their kids and smothering their kids with so much love that the kids will actually push away. I shared those feelings of needing to be enough. While more money is nice, it’s important to be a loving and emotional pillar. There’s just one trick to success as a father, be present.” Be present. Now, this if you had to say, Hey, Tim, what’s probably one of the greatest challenges you’ve had, as a father, I would say it’s really honing in on this. And again, there’s permission and grace that needs to come in here as well. What, for you, has been the secret or has allowed you to be as present as possible as a father? You just talked about in the book how important it is.

Cory Jenks  25:52

Well, I don’t know if it’s a secret so much as a lot of self reflection and being called out for not being present. I think having having a having if you’re there, if you’re raising them with you, with your spouse, with your wife, and she’s like, Hey, you’re on your phone, that like that’s a dagger to be like, Okay, I’m not there. But like going through the different pillars of like, what would take you out of the moment with your kids. So there’s, there’s work and so I, the longer I’ve worked, the better I’ve been at leaving work home when I come home. That being said, like in a world of entrepreneurship, like the work typically, I mean, literally never ends. So there’s always like a notification, you could check, there’s always something you can do there, so trying to block time to be like, okay, when they’re at school, like for this hour, I’m working on it, and then like letting it go. So just letting stuff wait. And it could wait. I do comedy, there’s never a comedic emergency. So like, there’s no, there’s no need to get to that. I think that the other pillar’s of presence. So like trying to earn a ton of money for your kids, like my kids. It’s like the trope of like, they’ll play with a box or like a stick in dirt, or a balloon. And this is something that’s probably one of the biggest conflicts with the grandparents, it’s like you stop getting them stuff, like they’re so happy with the balloon like imagine a world where you could be entertained with a balloon for an hour, we would all be so much happier if we didn’t have to feel like we’ve spent money on stuff. So if I’m not taking myself literally, physically away trying to earn money to buy stuff I don’t need that I’m going to be more present. And fortunately, again, I’m married to someone who’s not a huge like checking phone person. So I kind of take cues from Cassie and we have a spot where we charge it in our laundry room. And we’re pretty good about just ignoring that and just not trying to kind of piggybacking off that, like there’s a chapter in the book, like don’t try to like make memories. Like you let the memories happen. So if you’re not in this is a sort of pet peeve of mine, like we don’t try to document everything with like every, we don’t do a picture of video of like every little cute thing, because you literally can’t. Because if you’ve tried to do that, you’re going to take yourself out of the moment of taking a picture, is it good enough, we’ll take another picture. Well, now the kids want to look at the picture. And then if you’re someone who posts stuff publicly, then you’re posting it, then you’re checking on the comments of those things. And so we don’t, we don’t put anything with our kids on the internet, short of like the backs of my kids heads, which just hit the back of my baby’s head spoiler alert, you can see the back of my baby’s head at the end of the book, if you make it through. I think that’s been a big part of it is just living within our house instead of worrying about what other strangers on the internet or, you know, acquaintances might think of what we might post. So we, we we like we’d go on vacation, we have a policy, like we take one picture at the beginning, we put the phones away, and then we just play, we’re gonna like we accept that we’re gonna miss stuff. But we were telling our kids last night about the good old days when you had 25 count disposable cameras and that’s all you got. So trying trying to live a little bit less fast, I guess.

Tim Ulbrich  28:40

And what I heard throughout all that Cory was: we. You know, we we, we, right? There’s tactical strategy you talked about where you put your phone and how you handle vacation, the posts and all that stuff. But it’s we. It’s, hey, we’re on the same page with this and through the “we.” There’s accountability, you know, in that process as well. So great, great insights to share there. I want to ask you about play. I have found for me, when I am truly involved in play with my boys, like those are the moments that really are rich memories. But those are the moments where I am all in present. I’m talking about like rollerblade hockey on the driveway, like epic games of soccer in the basement. You know, freeze tag. Not we’re like I’m kind of having like a yeah, I’ll play, or I’m watching, but like I’m actually in on the play. And I’m curious to hear for you, like is that a similar experience? or what have you found in terms of how important play is when it comes to engaging and be involved present as father.

Cory Jenks  29:39

I’m glad you said that because it was a great reminder for me that it’s probably one of the most if not most important ways to be present. I can’t you know, yes, we all have presence. I’d even say play. My goodness. Read my own book. Yeah, I think and this is just to use that improv comedy side of my brain. Improv is adult play and kids we play we live in the moment. We grow up, we have responsibilities, we have jobs. So like when I’m doing an improv scene, like you have to totally be in that moment, it’s you talked about the like moments of flow and creativity and being all present, like improv forces you to do that and playing with your kids. If you’re doing it right, if you’re not trying to record everything to put on YouTube, if you’re not trying to document every little thing, you’re just playing, those are the moments that you’re going to be totally in it with your kids, you’re having fun, you’re and the time like slip like it’s a combination of it, like slows down and it speeds up because you’re like, oh my gosh, that was an hour of playing. But it was so much fun. And for kids development, I this is you know, not an expert writing a book. But it’s everything that I’ve been reading and I just read a great book called The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt talking about all the issues that screens potentially could be having on our kids. Like play builds resilience, it builds it builds neuroplasticity. So for all you pharmacy leaders out there who want to have another PowerPoint on resiliency, just like let your staff go out and play tag or something. Like you’re literally better off than trying to like cram down more information. That’s a little side pet peeve of mine, but yeah, the place where they’re gonna like they’re gonna learn like right and wrong, what boundaries to push. And yeah, for us, it’s a lot of a lot of wrestling to the point of you talking about being physically fit, like, like, kids beat me up. There’s strong. But yeah, we were just they just learned the great game of Three Flies Up the other day. So and it’s just it’s it’s so much fun with like, let’s play Three Fies Up. Let’s play this. And you’re just playing. And and that is I think the the simplicity, the simplicity of that wins out almost over every complicated vacation, app, toy, tool, tech thing you want to do. And yeah, yeah, you’re right. I won’t ramble anymore on that, because you actually made the point better than I have in the last two minutes.

Tim Ulbrich  31:40

No, it’s great. And it really is a good reminder and challenge for me, I wish I get there more often, when I really let myself into those moments like, again, were really rich memories. But as you alluded to the time really does kind of fly and pass away. And I think it’s important that they see Dad, in a very different environment, you know, I can get into a very structured, everything so serious, we got things to do, places to go, right life’s busy, and like to really have a space where we can play and engage without that type of structure. I think it’s so rich, to really see me in a different light right than they probably do. And other other moments and other seasons. I want to ask you about community. You mentioned this a little bit when you’re talking about a neighbor. I sense that there’s maybe some community there and the influence there. But I have found for me, you know, I’ve got a core group of men that are absolutely critical. When I think about having a safe place, a truly safe place where there is vulnerability that is allowed. There’s accountability, that is key to that group. And I’m curious for you, whether it’s a group, a guy, some friends, like as a father, as a husband, when you think about bringing your best self, like, what does the role of community play for you?

Cory Jenks  32:56

Oh, it’s huge. I think you got to have your tribe and I think we’ve evolved as tribal creatures and we’ve now found these like weird online tribes that don’t actually mean anything and support us in fact, actually probably hurt our mental health. But for me, I have there’s four or five other families in our neighborhood around the same age, kids around the same age and we joke because all the the wives and moms are older than the dads so they’re the Cougar Club. We call ourselves the Manthers. I mean, it’s silly. Like you’re talking about play, like it’s ridiculous. So we’ll go on, like yesterday I went I went on a run with one of the guys. Like everyone has their own little like strength like there’s one that’s like a phenomenal engineer that helped me design and build my chicken coop. There’s one that I go run with. There’s the one that’s like the more like feelings guy, so when I need to talk about something like that, we go for a walk and it’s it’s really great there. And then I have friends that are across the country that it’s just a text. I text my buddy Kendrick more than I text my wife so we go back and forth with the wins the losses and just there to share and listen. And that’s one thing that and even like yesterday at this Memorial Day party we were at as we record this, like was talking to the dads and the moms too like sharing our struggles with our own families and issues and just being having just, sometimes just talking about it you feel so much better. It doesn’t solve the problem but it helps to feel like you’re not alone. And I you know as selfishly, like this book I think for a lot of dads who have read it and I’ve talked to, they had these like relief moments of like I’m not feeling who feels like this. I’m not alone in this. And guys are not known for our open communication. So if you can find a real life tribe, if it’s if it’s an online community, but it’s really supportive and productive. That’s great too. And then sometimes reading a book that makes you laugh and realize okay, I’m not the only idiot dad that does dumb sometimes like okay, if Cory did that, then you don’t feel so bad if you made that mistake, too. So and then having your group of people that are have skills you don’t have mostly because I’m not handy. So I talked about the importance of that, too.

Tim Ulbrich  35:02

My experience has been, you know, in the absence of community, or present in isolation, I think the challenges that we inevitably will face can start to bleed with our identity. And we get those two things confused. And I think really having a group of people around us, you know, you mentioned your book, right? The people that read that and say, hey, wow, like, I’m not alone, I have these feelings, it’s okay to have these feelings. I don’t have to be defined by these feelings like, these are to be expected on some level. And there’s other people that are going through this journey. And again, it’s going to have highs, it’s gonna have lows, that is a roller coaster. That’s the reality of fatherhood. And so I think whatever that community looks like neighbors, you know, people across the country, friends, whatever be – so important, you know, and for me, at least, as I think about my own journey of fatherhood. I do want to talk a little bit about finances as a finance platform afterall. You talked about finance in the book as well, chapter 15, titled Money, Money, Money. And I think you scratch the surface on some important topics, you know, life insurance, estate planning and building a strong financial foundation. Obviously, you didn’t, you didn’t set out to write a personal finance book, so I wouldn’t have expected you to go a lot deeper. But I want to go a little bit deeper with you. As I know, this is an important part of your financial plan and journey. And as we’ve already established, I think there is a connection, when we think about this to fatherhood as well. We’re not going to re live your entire financial journey. We talked about a lot of that on episode 134, with you and Cassie talking about your FIRE pathway. But I do want to start there FIRE: Financial Independence, Retire Early. I know that’s been a key pathway for you and Cassie, as you think about your own financial journey and success, why has the FIRE ourney been important, continue to be important for the two of you?

Cory Jenks  36:45

Well, I will say I will disclose that we are not at the FIRE level. So it is a journey. But I think what we found in 2017, when we kind of found this idea of FIRE was it forced us to re examine our finances. It forced us to look at how we were spending money and you you mentioned the word intentionality at the beginning of the recording, that we realized a lot of our money was going places we weren’t really being intentional with and because we were blessed with big shovels. She’s a nurse practitioner, I was working full time as a pharmacist, you paper over a lot of your mistakes. And you the 401k is growing pretty good things are looking good. You’re living a happy life or taking vacations. And then realizing that there’s there’s this point like 1000s of dollars a month that we can be reallocating to more efficient and effective ways of establishing our future in a more secure way, then you become intentional with that. And while we haven’t hit full FIRE, we talked about this idea of Coast FIRE where we stayed really despite our mistakes. Because we are we are blessed to have jobs that have the big larger incomes, compared to the average American, we hit a place with the idea of Coast FIRE, you save a lot in retirement and get to a place where at that point like time and competition will get you get you to the finish line. And so we’ve more or less hit that place. It doesn’t mean we’ve totally stopped saving, but it’ll allocates more funds for inevitable kid expenses. It allowed me to cut part time. Gives me a little breathing room when I invest in a another self published book. Because, by the way, if you want to write a book get really famous first so they give you a big advance. If you have a huge audience to start, it really helps. Just a little insider tip there. But it’s been an important part of us to be intentional with how we spend money and like, it’s a mindset, like we just bought a new, like a new vehicle to us. It’s an eight year old vehicle. But we spent two years figuring out what we wanted. Like it was a two year process. Our family was so tired of us talking about it. But when you think about I could spend $70,000 on a new vehicle or I could spend $25,000 on a vehicle like what’s the delta of that money? What could it be used for? What’s the opportunity cost? What’s the time I’m going to spend and I we talk a lot about like the life energy to buy something, your money or your life concept. And so it really affects us when we decide do we really need to buy that thing for the kids, we really need to buy that other thing, or with going out with three little kids to a restaurant really bring us much joy? No. Save the money and cook at home and, you know, watch a Netflix movie or something instead.

Tim Ulbrich  39:04

Yeah, and I think it’s a Coast FI is an interesting pathway. You know, not everyone obviously is able to do it, everyone comes out with a different income level, different debt position, other goals that they’re working on. But when I think about the journey that you and Cassie are on now that you’ve got six, four, and one, you know, essentially, as you mentioned, you’re not not saving anymore, but you’ve largely checked that box because time value money is going to do its thing, right? And so you’re entering into the ages were experiences and time to get those experiences is going to be more readily available, right? I mean, there’s only so much you can do with a one year old, obviously. But as they get older, like the opportunity to travel, the flexibility that you guys have in your schedule to do whatever it means for you guys to be living your rich life that’s going to become more available and to have the opportunity to invest in those experiences to a greater degree I think is exciting. And you know, perhaps a reason for aggressive saving early is great. I am curious. I know one of the most common questions I get, Cory, when people are thinking about really FIRE any part of the financial plan, is how to me and my spouse get on the same page. You know, one person may be an aggressive saver one is not or there’s different philosophies, different mindsets, different ways that they grew up with money. So for you and Cassie, as you’ve been on this journey, I sense you’re very much on the same page. But what allowed you the two of you? Is that where you started? Or was this a process that you guys developed over time.v

Cory Jenks  40:31

I was definitely much more like the saver mindset, not that she was like a frivolous spender. But I think what we did was a lot of shared, like we did podcasts and book clubs. I would literally listened to an episode of YFP. And be like, hey, what do you think of this idea of an HSA account? And you know, the various financial podcasts, but I’m gonna plug you guys because you’re the best, and your pharmacists. If you Google other resources, you can find them. But YFP is  a great place to start, so you listen to a podcast. And  we do book clubs together, like we would read a book or because she’s kids, I read a book, take notes and go through the highlights with her. And it just it provokes questions. It provokes discussions. And it’s never a, you’ve spent this, I can’t believe that you didn’t spend this, I can’t believe it. I don’t know, I’m just I’m very blessed to be married to someone who’s like we’re both when it comes to finances pretty reasonable people who want to meet in the middle and have not had a lot of, I can’t remember a money fight honestly, we’ve ever had. Because maybe the only one being like Cory, we can spend more like okay, fine, save less. And that was that was the hardest thing was to take the break off the savings. But I think like turning it into an activity versus a chore. If it means you have a nice dinner and talk about it, if it means you’re on a walk together. And you each have a Bluetooth pod, like your air pod, and you’re listening to Tim and Tim and talk about something. You pause it and say that was good, or I don’t understand that. That’s where we started. And it really hasn’t been a huge conflict for us.

Tim Ulbrich  42:04

Yeah, and I love the concept of the book club and just getting thoughts moving, right, conversation starters, we did an episode not too long ago, around 25 Financial discussions that couples should have, and it really wasn’t about like, Hey, you should do X, Y, and Z. It was about start talking about, you know, these areas. And there’s, of course more questions in that and figure out for the two of you what what does it mean to be living that rich life? What does it mean to have that balance between today and tomorrow? And, you know, the back of the back of your book, you referenced several books, one of which, you know, I know has been transformational on my journey Die with Zero by Bill Perkins. But even reading books that have different philosophies, different perspectives, just to get things moving. Conversation wise and figure out, hey, for the two of you, what does success look like? And I often share that we get in the weeds with the X’s and O’s. All of those are important. But we often have to start at a higher level, which is what what is the vision? What does success look like for the two of us? What do we want this to look like for our family? And then from there, the X’s and O’s have to support that vision?

Cory Jenks  43:07

Yeah, I think I skipped over the strategic vision and goal setting and skipped right to the tactical stuff that we would do. But yeah, I think yeah, you nailed it. Having the, I think I think what helped us get on the same page was, what do we want our life to look like? What are the what’s the one year goal, five year goal, 10 year goal? What’s retirement goal look like and then working backwards from there, you can decide what that how that fits into your day to day. And I think having that ultimate vision of how we want our life to be is important. And for both of us, the biggest thing we care about is options. We want to have options to manage, to own as much of our own time. And we were not 100% there yet, but it’s been a very useful journey in helping us get to where we, you know, it’s we’re recording this on a Tuesday morning and she’s home. She’s not working today, and I’m not working today. And our kids are, you know, in a perfect world, they’d be home with us and we you know, making memories but they’re exploring. We get a little bit of adult freedom and don’t feel guilty about that when you do need it, by the way.

Tim Ulbrich  44:05

Yeah, options and flexibility. When I poll a group of pharmacists, I serve a group of pharmacists and say, hey, what, what’s most important to you, right? That those are the two things I hear over and over and over again. And sometimes we get lost in the weeds of hey, do we need 2 million or two and a half or three or three and a half million and those are good conversations, but really, it’s often the emotion behind that. What are we trying to achieve? What does that vision look like? Cory, this has been great. So I Guess I’m a Dad Now:  A Humorous Handbook for Newish Dads Who Don’t Want to Suck. If I can make one gentle amendment to your subtitle, I appreciate the focus for new-ish but I found this as a father of four soon to be teenager. I don’t consider myself a new or new-ish dad. But I found this to be incredibly insightful and helpful. So I would say for dads everywhere at any stage, adult children, soon-to-be, expecting, planning kids, could make a great Father’s Day gift. So where’s the best place that people can go to get a copy of the book and follow your work? 

Cory Jenks  45:03

It’s on Amazon. So you could look you could just look the title up there on Amazon. If you go to my website Coryjenks.com C-O-R-Y-J-E-N-K-S.com. My parents were cheap, didn’t but the “E” in Cory, although I should probably buy that domain and just send people to my website. You can, you can get some information on like, I still have my pre order stuff up so you can see what if you if you order the book, just email me I’ll send you all the pre order stuff. We’re dads we’re busy. We didn’t get we didn’t get there in time. It’s okay. You can kind of see the other stuff I’m up to and you can connect all my different socials from from my website.

Tim Ulbrich  45:35

Awesome, Cory thanks so much for doing the interview. Appreciate it.

Cory Jenks  45:38

Anytime this is you know, you talked about playing time flying by I can’t believe it’s almost been 50 minutes, Tim. It always happens. So that’s a sign of a great a great time. So thanks again and anytime you want to chat, happy to. Thanks.

Tim Ulbrich  45:50

Thank you so much. Take care. 

Tim Ulbrich  45:53

As we conclude this week’s podcast an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 360: Starting a Nonprofit: An Interview w/ Brentsen Wolf, PharmD Founder of RxTeach


Brentsen Wolf, PharmD, Founder and President of the nonprofit RxTeach, shares his journey of starting and leading a nonprofit organization.

Episode Summary

On this episode, Tim Ulbrich connects with industry pharmacist Brentsen Wolf, PharmD about his journey starting RxTeach, a nonprofit organization dedicated to providing scholarships in the areas of advancing preventative medicine education and cancer research. Brentsen discusses the motivations behind starting RxTeach, how he was able to go from idea to getting it off the ground and shares the lessons he learned along the way. He also discusses his thoughts on the future of the organization and the efforts RxTeach is supporting.

About Today’s Guest

Brentsen Wolf graduated with his PharmD from the Southern Illinois University of Edwardsville in 2021. He then completed a 2-year post-doctoral medical affairs fellowship through the Rutgers Pharmaceutical Industry Fellowship Program at Merck. Brentsen currently works as an MSL in thoracic malignancies in the pharmaceutical industry.

Brentsen is the President and Founder of RxTeach, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization dedicated to providing scholarships in the areas of advancing preventative medicine education and cancer research. Brentsen has a passion for health and fitness, professional development, and research. You can connect with him via LinkedIn and read all of his articles here.

Key Points from the Episode

  • Pharmacist’s career journey and nonprofit work. [0:00]
  • Nonprofit organization RX Teach, providing educational content for pharmacists and students. [4:32]
  • Preventative medicine and cancer treatment. [9:07]
  • Nonprofit efforts to create educational content and raise funds for scholarships. [13:23]
  • Brentsen Wolf avoids burnout by making nonprofit effort [14:45]
  • Nonprofit formation and legal requirements. [19:48]
  • Nonprofit organization’s mission to provide scholarships for pharmacy students and prevent cancer through education. [24:33]

Episode Highlights

“Starting the non-profit was based on passion. And I think if you can articulate well for yourself, what is actually going to drive you and prevent you from burning out. That’s how you make this decision.” – Brentsen Wolf, PharmD [14:48]

“If you’re thinking about doing something, whether it’s a nonprofit, for profit, blog, side project, whatever it is, there’s never going to be a perfect time.” – Brentsen Wolf, PharmD [20:51]

“I hear all the time, like, oh, once I get X number of dollars in the bank, or once I get to this place in my career, that’s when I’ll do this. And I can tell you, you know, ever since having my first child, you just, there’s no perfect time. It’s always going to be hard in some fashion, there’s always going to be some kinds of challenges, and you’re going to meet those along the way and overcome them and feel good about that.” – Brentsen Wolf, PharmD [20:59]

“So stop waiting is my first piece of advice, just take the first step. And if it goes slowly, if it takes a long time, or it’s really difficult upfront, that’s fine, it was never going to be super easy.” – Brentsen Wolf, PharmD [21:19]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich  00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I had the pleasure of sitting down with industry pharmacist Brentsen Wolf about his journey, starting the nonprofit, Rx Teach. We discussed the motivations behind starting Rx Teach how he was able to go from idea to getting off the ground, the lessons he learned along the way, the future of the organization and the efforts that Rx Teach is supporting. Now, before we jump into my interview with Brentsen, I have a hard truth for you to hear: making a six figure income is not a financial plan. Yes, you’ve worked hard to get where you are today. Yes, you’re earning a good income. But have you ever wondered, am I on track to retire? How do I prioritize and fund all the competing financial goals that I have? How do I plan financially for big upcoming life events and changes like moving having a child, changing jobs, getting married or retiring? And why perhaps am I not as far along financially at this point in my career, as I thought I would be? One of the answers may be that your six figure income is not a financial plan. As a pharmacist, yes, you have an incredible tool in your toolbox – your salary. But without a vision and a plan that good income will only go so far. That’s in part why we started Your Financial Pharmacist back in 2015. At YFP, we support pharmacists at every stage of their careers to take control their finances reach their financial goals and build wealth through comprehensive, fee-only financial planning and tax planning. Our team of certified financial planners and tax professionals work with pharmacists all across the United States, and helps our clients set their future selves up for success while living a rich life today. If you’re ready to see how Your Financial Pharmacist can support you on your financial journey, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/learn to learn more about our services. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/learn. Alright, let’s jump into my interview with Brentsen Wolf, founder of Rx Teach. 

Tim Ulbrich  02:06

Brentsen, welcome to the show.

Brentsen Wolf  02:08

Thank you, Tim. Thank you. 

Tim Ulbrich  02:09

Well it’s been a treat for me, you and I connected a couple years back when you were doing your industry fellowship with Merck through the Rutgers program. And we collaborated on some personal finance sessions with the fellows which we’ve done now for a few years, which has been a lot a lot of fun and it’s been a joy. And before we get into the work that you’ve been doing with the nonprofit Rx Teach, and we’re excited to share more of that story and the journey that led to that work and the impact that you’re having. Tell us more about your career story in pharmacy, what led you into the profession? What led to the interest in industry and the work that you’re doing now?

Brentsen Wolf  02:43

Yeah, it’s a good question. Especially because coming from the Midwest, and I know we’re both Midwest guys, the kind of interesting opportunities for PharmDs outside of retail and hospital aren’t thrown at you in school the way they are in some of the coastal areas. So yeah, my, my journey to where I’m at now is, you know, convoluted and stressful in some ways, but also just, you know, I think I ended up where I needed to be. So I graduated from Southern Illinois University, Edwardsville in 2021. And like I said, Midwest thought retail, or inpatient pharmacy, I worked in both of those areas, and, you know, during school and just wasn’t sure that it was really for me. I learned in probably my P3 year that these fellowships existed. And I was glad to connect with you at some point to bring you into those folds. Because I know the fellows don’t know anything about personal finance. I certainly didn’t. So those are very helpful sessions. I’m glad we collaborated in that way. But yeah, I ended up at Merck, doing a medical affairs fellowship, and mostly solid tumors, the little bit of work in infectious diseases as well, and just absolutely loved it. I knew I found what I was looking for in a career, it actually drew me in. I was very passionate about all of the work I was doing. So I actually transitioned after fellowship over to AstraZeneca, which is where I’m at now working in thoracic malignancies as a medical science liaison, which again, couldn’t be happier. I’m back where I grew up, surrounded by family. I’ve got a one year old daughter now. So that part’s important. It’s cheaper living here than New York City where some of my colleagues live. So yeah, couldn’t couldn’t complain. And that’s kind of how I ended up where I am now. Hey,

 

Tim Ulbrich  04:24

You’ve got the sought after sweet gig, working in an industry position, but living in an affordable cost of living area. We work with a lot of industry pharmacists that make a great income, certainly, but often cost of living is a challenging part of the plan. So you’re certainly happy for you and where that career has progressed. Let’s talk about the nonprofit organization that you started RX Teach. And tell us about what exactly is Rx Teach and ultimately, how did it come to be? How did it get started? 

Brentsen Wolf  04:57

Rx Teach was a brainchild I had during fellowship, and for whatever reason, I thought I had enough free time to start this thing. So if that tells you anything about work life balance as a fellow versus maybe a resident, that might be a bit insightful. So I ended up, you know, just saying, screw it, I just want to do something. I wanted my own platform, I wanted to be able to say and talk about things that were important to me. And so I started this website. And honestly, the thought of it becoming a nonprofit organization was in my head, but was I was too busy. I didn’t know what I was doing. You know, it was it was down the line. So really, it started off almost like a blog, right? Just kind of writing member that I care about. I think you were one of the first people I talked to about it. So we really focused on a couple of different areas as a nonprofit, the two main ones that were preventative medicine, education. And the second one is cancer, essentially, broadly speaking. So we write a lot about those topics. But we also write about pretty much you know, across the board, anything that could contribute to pharmacists, or really any health care professions understanding of a certain topic. So we’ll do journal clubs, lifestyle management stuff. And we do all of that via essentially a weekly email, sometimes more than weekly. We’ve gathered a following and a community now that we’re very proud of. And like I said, we don’t keep a cent of anything, to be honest with you, it all gets donated. And that’s because our Rx Teach at its core, is still just a passion project and a hobby for the board, all the board members. You know, we we keep it very balanced. It’s in terms of work life balance. The second this feels like a job, we won’t do it. But you know, we’re very passionate about these topics. And so it’s been very easy for us to maintain this kind of work life balance with Rx Teach and still be able to provide scholarships and funds to students in the local communities like we’ve always sought after so.

Tim Ulbrich  06:58

So the website will link to this in the show notes, rxteach.com. So our listeners can check it out as well. Brenton, you mentioned we when you talked about some of the content, the articles is that you and the board? Are there other people that are contributing? Tell us about what that model looks like. I know content creation can be a labor of love. So I’m curious to hear more.

Tim Ulbrich  07:16

You know, it’s funny, you mentioned that. I was just thinking about this. I’m listening to a six part podcast series, one of my favorite shows the Huberman Lab podcast. And he did a six part series, his content is just fantastic. But he did a six part series on sleep with Matthew Walker, and it was one of the things I’m listening to and it’s like, Okay, think of all the things we learned about in pharmacy school about prescribing sleep medications and mechanism of action. Is this going to help, you know, latency and onset and people falling asleep versus, etc. We know nothing about, like prevention to the actual, like mechanics of sleep and is like, yes, yes. What you’re saying so true. Right. It’s, it’s that you know, we have such a strong focus, obviously, on the treatment, makes sense for pharmacists, but, you know, it’s like wow, the preventative aspect. And all in I remember even learning some of those things where it’s like sleep hygiene and, you know, self care, and we’re like, yeah, yeah, yeah, like maybe there’ll be a question there. Right. But what do I need to know about the drugs? Right?

Brentsen Wolf  07:16

Yeah, it’s definitely a it is a big week. So I frequently write for the website and my co-founder Kristin Lindauer, who’s a PGY1 trained pharmacist and is now an HIV ambulatory care pharmacist over in Virginia, also frequently writes. But we highlight student work constantly, it was one of the things that was important to us, because I didn’t think I had opportunities to really showcase my work or understanding or maybe some niche topics that I cared about as a student. So now we have students write for us all the time, you can go look at the website and see who has done that in the past. Oftentimes, if they write for us once they write for us, again, because it’s a decent experience. So students write for us, we also get other residents writing pharmacy residents, current fellows will right health care providers in any field. So we have Day in the Life series of like a veterinarian pharmacist, a retail pharmacist, and oncology pharmacist, etc. So we really highlight the full gambit. But we like I said, we do have particular interests in preventative medicine, and cancer, just because that’s where all of our money goes to. So content on that is obviously a big part of it. So for instance, we have a whole series on how to prescribe exercise, which I think is a big you don’t get that in pharmacy school now, right? Not to get on my soapbox, but honestly, like if a patient were to ask any given pharmacist or physician, like hey, I want to prevent cardiovascular disease, how do I do that? You’re not going to get a very in depth answer. Generally, you’re gonna get 30 minutes, five times a week of moderate intensity exercise. And that’s just to me not a good enough response. Right. And that’s the purpose of this whole thing, is how do we hash that out and really educate people on how would you respond to that patient in a way that I think is sufficient? And I do say I, it’s subjective term, but that’s the point of the organization.

Brentsen Wolf  10:05

Yeah, I totally agree. And I don’t think the healthcare system is even currently set up to understand the impact that, you know, preventative education could even bring, which is why we’re so interested. It’s a huge gap, huge gap. And it’s not just pharmacists. I want to say that. 

Tim Ulbrich  10:21

That’s right. That’s right. 

Brentsen Wolf  10:22

It’s physicians, nurses, PAs, whatever, you’re not learning this in school. So really, people have to self educate at this point, which is a bummer. But we hope to help make that easier for those people. 

Tim Ulbrich  10:34

What is the passion behind the preventative medicine, the cancer focus? Those are really the two pillars that I’m hearing you share about? Where does that passion? Where does that interest come from?

Brentsen Wolf  10:43

Yeah, so I mean, for me, and you seem like a fit guy. I’ve always been in exercise and lifestyle management. And Kristin Lindauer, also has been too. She’s a I mean, she’s in better shape than me in certain ways. She just ran a marathon in three hours and 27 minutes!

Tim Ulbrich  10:59

No way! 

Brentsen Wolf  11:00

She’s a superstar. Yeah, I mean, I hope to get that fast eventually. But, you know, fitness has always been something that we have been passionate about and have felt, at least anecdotally, for ourselves, the incredible benefits. And then all of a sudden, you know, you start seeing these publications around longevity and what contributes, what contributes to it. So anything from how a VO2 Max can predict your overall survival over a 10 year period, and how grip strength is associated with preventing hip fractures in the elderly. And all of these things start to stack on top of each other and really paint the picture of how important fitness lifestyle management is to preventing disease. And so it’s an area where I can easily nerd out in and you know, just dive very deep into the data. And I write about it frequently. So it was an obvious pillar. And plus, I had identified it as unmet need. I really think we need more of this information out there. And we need to encourage students, current students to look for this type of data so they can incorporate it into their practices once they once they graduate. As for cancer, you know, I think about it in my head is we’re attacking the two sides of healthcare: preventative, and then the sickest patients, right. And I started doing breast cancer genetics research, before I ever even got into pharmacy school. So oncology was a huge passion of mine, I had a mentor named Dr. Ronald Worthington, who really drove me towards that kind of thing. It’s why I almost went and did a PhD, right. And so I just, you know, you know, anyone with cancer, you know, what this is, like, it’s a tough field to be into a lot of the times. I think biologically, it’s, it’s extremely interesting. So again, it’s easy for me to write about because I have so much passion for it. But we need people that are willing to go into this space forever gonna take care of cancer, and cancer is not something you just cure, right? There’s 1000s of tumor types. I mean, it’s not it’s not how it works. And the general public thinks, oh, what’s the cure for cancer, it’s not going to be one thing, I can guarantee it. But you know, we need pharmacists, we need physicians, nurses that grow passion for oncology early, and then are willing to really put in the time down the line and hopefully, start kicking away at these patient outcomes, which are historically not I mean, you take you take metastatic lung cancer, five year overall survival rates of less than 10%. And I mean, that’s, you know, not not great, obviously, still unmet needs. So these are the areas we’ve chosen to focus on, again, for passion and impact. 

Tim Ulbrich  13:23

I love what you’ve built, because to me, I can hear the passion in your voice, I can hear the energy and excitement, right, you’re building something that’s taking an area of interest for you, one that you’re naturally going to be excited about create creating content getting others involved in, that you’re then able to teach others of which has more impact, right, and I would assume that’s energizing as well, as you see, hey, people are learning about things that maybe they otherwise wouldn’t have learned about. And it’s written in a way that you can connect from a pharmacist to pharmacist perspective, and an immediate need, right, and ultimately leading to scholarships and other efforts that are having a benefit. So that has the the ingredients that are so important, that we often talk about on the for profit side of a business, but yeah, here we’re talking about the nonprofit side, which is, you know, equally if not more important. I’m curious to hear more about, you know, you started, I heard you say, Hey, I just got started, right. You know, I just got started, I knew I wanted to create my own platform. I didn’t necessarily think, or I couldn’t see all the dots connect of how this would become a 501 C3, maybe that was an idea that loosely you held. But ultimately, you went that direction. And it very much could have been a you know, blog site that turned into a for profit membership community, a lot of different models that are out there. What was that juncture decision point where you said, Hey, I’m going to keep forward with this educational mission. But I really do want to make it into a nonprofit effort. 

Brentsen Wolf  14:44

Yeah. You kind of You briefly mentioned it and it was it’s based off of passion. And I think if you can articulate well for yourself, what is actually going to drive you and prevent you from burning out. That’s how you make this decision. For me if I knew that if I was trying to do this stuff, you know, as in a for profit matter, just to make money for myself, which I honestly don’t I see no issues with that I just know that I would have personally burned out on. It would it’s it would have become work instead of a passion project, I would have been chasing metrics that, you know, as a nonprofit, if I don’t make a million dollars, it, it does not bother me, I’m giving as much money away as I possibly can. And if I don’t hit a specific number, it doesn’t hurt me personally. I think if it was a for profit model, those numbers would have gotten into my head a little bit more, would have affected my mentality towards Rx Teach in general. And I was just trying to avoid that. And so, you know, getting the board together, a group of people that were on the same page is like, Hey, we’re just doing this in our free time. This is passion driven 100%. And whatever, however many dollars we can donate. That’s the goal. And we’re going to get that number as big as we can get it, but we’re not going to kill ourselves doing it. And that’s kind of how we landed on this model. Because, you know, I’ve got a one year old daughter at home, I got a full time job, all these things you got to you got to make sure it’s it’s driven by the right motivation, or you’re not gonna make it. 

Tim Ulbrich  16:08

I like that, because I think I was sharing with someone recently that when we think about a lot of the burnout that we’re seeing in our profession and to be honest, it’s not just pharmacy, right? I think the healthcare workforce at large, obviously, the impact of the pandemic and, and other factors in there as well, I think something like this, not to suggest you to go out and start your own nonprofit, but be being involved in an effort, whether that’s an investment of time, money, both, right, I think that participation in something bigger than the grind of what you’re doing every day, even for those who say, I love my job, great. There’s still a lot of stressing me evolve. You’ve got a one one year old child at home, like life’s busy, right. And I think, you know, for us to kind of go back to our roots and say, Hey, why did we get interested in healthcare in the first place? I think we lose that sometimes over time. And just an encouragement to listeners, you know, whether it’s getting involved in Rx Teach, whether it’s getting involved something local in your community, or both great, like, what are some of those initiatives and opportunities where people can get involved? And I think that naturally can be in part an antidote to some of that burnout that we so often see. So curious, certainly to hear you tie that directly back to that decision, that strategic move you made to go into the nonprofit direction. Yeah. How do you, not make money, right, that’s for profit language. But how do you ultimately raise funds that get delivered in the form of scholarships. Is it individual donations? What what is the predominant ways in which you’re raising money as an organization? 

Brentsen Wolf  17:34

So right now we do it in three different ways, right. So the first way is, what we started off at the beginning is that this is gonna be a free resource for anyone to read and do with what they want. And we’re gonna go deep into data, we’re gonna do all these things. If you care about our mission, and you want to get this content with a small monthly donation, we’re gonna let you do that. And so we just set up a couple of different subscriber levels. Yeah, paid members get some extra stuff, you know, maybe an extra article here and there. But really, it is like, hey, if you find value in this and care about what we’re doing, it’s always going to be free. And we have because we want to change the community, right? i If you can’t afford it, I’m not going to make you pay for it. But if you want to contribute, feel free to do that. So we have a subscriber base model, which is probably where we get the most of our money. We also have a couple of digital assets, which are pretty new that I actually have enjoyed this process a lot. So we have some cheats, cheat sheets on things like cirrhosis, sickle cell disease, we have a how to guide for Journal Club which I absolutely love.

Tim Ulbrich  18:33

I could’ve used that one in pharmacy school! 

Brentsen Wolf  18:34

Yeah, I totally agree with that thinking back to pharmacy school days! Kristin put that together, which I think it was important for a resident or someone with residency experience to do that, because she puts Pearls in there, but like, what, what questions can you expect your preceptor to ask you, so that you can prepare for this journal club where in an article can you find this information? You know, whether it’s New England Journal medicine, or general oncology, whatever it is JAMA? So that’s a great resource. And we’ve also paired up with Dr. Alex Popin, and who wrote a book called High Powered Medicine. Yeah, so we sell his book on the website, and we have an agreement in place. And we split the profits for that, which we’re very thankful to him to, you know, contribute to Rx Teacg in that way, as well. So digital assets is the second piece. And then the third piece is just like you said, one time donations, anyone who wants to give money based off of, you know, hearing this podcast, or you ran into me at a bar, and I was telling you about grip strength. Right. And they were like, oh, that’s you know, that’s interesting. So people can certainly do that on the website, just one time donations. And of course, we appreciate that. And then like I said, we have partnered with local universities to actually allocate the funds in the form of scholarships and those areas I’ve already mentioned, but that’s how we actually bring the cash in.

Tim Ulbrich  19:48

So one of the things I’m always curious to hear from people at start anything for profit, nonprofit is, you know, it’s one thing to have an idea it’s another thing to execute on an idea and it’s a big step and for some people, it’s the actual mechanics. For others. It’s the fear of, hey, you know, what if nobody kind of likes the idea of what I have out there, what if this isn’t successful? You obviously took those steps, which you know, are great that you did it led to the platform and what you have here now and certainly something you can continue to build off of. But talk us through some of those early mechanics and decisions. You know, you’re talking about a board, you talked about 501C3, like, I think sometimes even though you haven’t been doing this that long, sometimes we blow past those things like, hey, those happened. But those are big milestones that often give me barriers. So talk to us about those early stages involved going from idea to actually get into the point where you can meet someone at a bar or a conference or whatever, and say, Hey, you can make a tax deductible donation, right?

Brentsen Wolf  20:44

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, that’s a great, it’s a great question. And it is there’s, there’s multiple steps. But before I get into that, I just want to say that like, if you’re thinking about doing something, whether it’s a nonprofit, for profit, blog, side project, whatever it is, there’s never going to be a perfect time. You know, I hear all the time, like, oh, once I get X number of dollars in the bank, or once I get to this place in my career, that’s when I’ll do this. And I can tell you, you know, ever since having my first child, you just, there’s no perfect time, it’s always going to be hard in some fashion, there’s always going to be some kinds of challenges, and you’re going to meet those along the way and overcome them and feel good about that. So stop waiting is my first piece of advice, just take the first step. And if it if it goes slowly, if it takes a long time, or it’s really difficult upfront, that’s fine, it was never going to be super easy, right. So that’s, that’s my first piece. But in terms of actually doing the nonprofit stuff, specifically, you know, I was working with a lawyer in our family, which certainly helped me. But talking with someone who has done this in the past is definitely a first step and just feel out what you need. So things like your bylaws, your articles of incorporation, your employee identification number, application, your Conflict of Interest Statement, these are kind of that’s kind of the four core things, you really need upfront, to register with your state. You have to start at the state level, you don’t go straight to the federal government, you have to, you know, become a corporation in the state level. Once you do that, that’s when you can actually send in some of the documentation at the federal level. And hopefully, if again, if you’re working with people who have done this before, when you actually put in your stuff with the state, you’re putting in there that you intend to be a 501C3, you’re making sure that you meet the criteria for nonprofits. So you need to go do some research on. You have to be in certain areas in order to qualify for nonprofit tax exempt status. So you want to word everything from your mission statement to your bylaws to support the fact that this is going to be a nonprofit organization, you do all that stuff upfront first, before ever talking with the federal government. For us, we were able to send in what’s called an EZ application, literally capital E capital Z, because we were bringing in less than $50,000 a year annually. That’s kind of the cut off. Even if you are making less than that you can do a full fledged application if you wish to. But certainly if you’re bringing in a million dollars in your first year, you have to you can’t use this EZ applicant is one piece of paper front and back and you’re just checking, I just checked no for everything right? It was very easy. But once you get back your EIN and your the, you’ll get an official letter from the government saying like, hey, we recognize you as a 501 C 3, that’s when you can start to reap some of the benefits of the nonprofit. So things like we use Stripe, to bring in money from our websites and Stripe has nonprofit rates that we can utilize. A lot of these third party vendors will have nonprofit rates. And sometimes it’s not public. Go look on Reddit like hey, is there a special rate for so and so and go take advantage of that. But after that you are going to file some stuff, even once you hear back from the federal government. And that’s going to be annually. It’s like federal income tax your state and income tax. In Illinois, you have to at least register with the Attorney General. You know, stuff like that is it’s paperwork. You know, that’s always going to be a small part of this. And I think staying organized is important. But again, just take a breath if you’re new to all this legal stuff like I was, it can seem a little bit like, I don’t even know what I’m doing. But at the end of the day, it’s it’s just paperwork. You know, if you’re an organized person, you’re gonna be fine. And I certainly don’t think it’s anything that should prevent you from doing this. Again, if things get off to a rocky start, like, especially in a nonprofit sense, who cares, you’re doing this for a very good reason, right? Like be easy on yourself. Just get there eventually. And let things let things sort them out as they will. 

Tim Ulbrich  24:32

I’m with you on the you know, I’ve kind of gone down this twice now in the last six months you and I talked a little bit about this. We started the nonprofit YFP Gives and your overview was great by the way from state to federal level. So anyone’s looking for like a checklist or at least just a frame of reference of the steps involved. That was fantastic! The first time we went through it we used an attorney. So helpful, right because it seems so overwhelming until you can see it. And to your point, there’s, you know, shortened forms based on your projected revenue and other things. But just to see the process from a state level up to the 501C3, okay, now that you’ve done that, you’ve got to register with the Attorney General on the state level, you got to file this solicitation format. For someone to just be able to say do XY and Z, I can assure you as well worth the fees, but I respect that that can be a barrier. Yeah. Second time I went through it, which was something not nonrelated on the pharmacy side, we EZ application was the form I had been through it, I kind of saw all the steps and I felt comfortable, like navigating that part myself seeing all that, but I couldn’t have wrapped my arms around it the first time. So I think that’s something as folks are thinking about this, you know, anticipating those legal fees, and I think it is something that certainly does add a lot of value, you’re growing through it. So great, great overview.

Brentsen Wolf  25:52

Actually, I want to add one thing to the one of the values that the attorney can can bring in is not only make sure you file the right paperwork, but oftentimes these folks have worked with corporations in the past, and they kind of know, over the years, what you know, what problems might arise. And so they will give you recommendations on how to maybe word bylaws and this kind of thing to prevent an issue that would happen if you wouldn’t have taken this step up front. So that’s a very important thing. I talked about preventative medicine, you might as well be preventative on this front as well. And an attorney can do that. 

Tim Ulbrich  26:25

That’s great. Let’s talk about the future, Brentsen. So as you look out over the next 5, 10,15 years, however long you want to go for the vision, you know, what does success look like for Rx Teach?You’ve taken this important step from idea to going through all the mechanics, the legal stuff, we just started, getting to the point where you can take tax deductible donations, you’ve been creating content for a while. What is the next iteration look like for RxTeach in terms of the work that you’re doing? And and how you would measure success?

Brentsen Wolf  26:55

Yeah, so you know, I think we’re constantly trying to assess community change, at least locally. And so that has started to happen already. RX Teach, you know, I think influencing folks locally. And that’s, that’s great news, and it’s specifically on these topics of interest. But like big, big picture goal in the next 10 years, would be to essentially expand our scholarship availability to more or less every pharmacy school in the country, but also get outside of pharmacy school. So we started with pharmacy just because that’s our background, but we’ve already started working with some schools of Exercise Science, mostly because, you know, in my perfect world, those two things come together a lot more than they currently do, you know, taking that preventative side of healthcare, into the healthcare providers, actual education. Again, that’s an area of unmet need. So scholarships across the country is what we want to be known for, to where if you can show that you’re actually interested in these very important topics, we’re going to give you money. And I feel no guilt at all about putting dollar signs in front of certain topics in order to drive people towards, well, maybe I’ll at least look up what that means if I want to get the scholarship! That’s fine with me, you know, I that’s I have no guilt on that kind of thing. And then, of course, building out the types of people who are willing to write for RX Teach and, you know, just help get our message out there. Cardiac disease is the number one killer of Americans. Kills more people than liver disease and diabetes and stroke, and it combined, it’s ridiculous. So, you know, the more we can prevent these types of things, and however, we’re going to do that, whether it’s scholarships, putting out putting out more content, selling more stuff to fund these types of events. That’s what we’re going to do. And again, I guess the number one thing for 10 years is don’t burn out, right? So it’s right, you know, keep finding that passion, make sure I’m keeping me and the rest of the board ignited about what we’re doing. And just following that passion.

Tim Ulbrich  28:48

As my partner Tim often says, you know, it’s a marathon, not a sprint. I think that’s true here as well. Right? You’ve got an important mission that transcends not only 10 years, but transcends your career. Sure. And to me, what I hear you doing, which I love is you’re getting others involved. This is not a Brentsen initiative. This is a board. This is a bigger initiative. And as those tentacles get out further, you know, it’s not about you and the face and the name. It’s about the impact, right that you can have. And that impact, I presume, isn’t going away. So when you say in 3040 years, like, hey, it’s time for someone else to take the reins like you’ve got other people that you’ve delegated, and gotten involved with on the way. This has been awesome. I appreciate you taking the time again, Rxteach.org. Make sure to check out the website we’d love for our community to not only learn about what you’re doing, get involved financially. You know, reach out to Brentsen, the team if you’ve got ideas for content that you’d like to contribute, make a donation if there’s a connection or relationship that you think could be helpful. Make sure to reach out to do that. As Brentsen says on the website, “Every cent will be given to students as merit based scholarships in cancer research and preventative medicine education.” So if you make Rx Teach a part of your giving plan, know that that’s going to be going to good use. So Brentsen, thanks so much for taking Time to come on the show. 

Brentsen Wolf  30:01

Thanks, Tim. Really appreciate it. 

Tim Ulbrich  30:04

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YFP 359: Pharmacy Innovators with Jamie Wilkey, PharmD


Dr. Jamie Wilkey shares her entrepreneurial journey of building and selling a business on this episode of the Pharmacy Innovators series hosted by Corrie Sanders.

This episode is brought to you by YFP+.

Episode Summary

In our YFP Podcast Pharmacy Innovators with Corrie Sanders series, Dr. Jamie Wilkey joins Corrie to discuss her entrepreneurship journey, emphasizing the importance of thinking big, pushing boundaries, and utilizing education to achieve success. Dr. Wilkey shares her journey of transitioning from a community pharmacist role to building a successful pharmacogenomics practice, highlighting the importance of validating ideas, leveraging scrappy methods, and empowerment through helping others. Dr. Wilkey also shares her experience with selling a pharmacy business and valuable insights on their professional journey, emphasizing the importance of adapting to the changing landscape of the pharmacy industry and embracing digital business ownership.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Jamie Wilkey is a PharmD who loves what she does and brings passion and happiness to the pharmacy profession.

Jamie has had a varied career from working retail pharmacy, to owning, scaling and selling her own company, and to working as a consultant for top universities and companies. Jamie is optimistic about the future of pharmacy and knows great things are in store for those pharmacists who are willing to push boundaries, to think big, and to use the full extent of their education. 

You can find her happily living debt-free with her 4 boys being outside as much as humanly possible and enjoying Utah’s National Parks. Or reading. A lot.

Key Points from the Episode

  • Pharmacy career paths with Dr. Jamie Wilkie. [0:00]
  • Building a pharmacogenomics business as a side hustle while working full-time as a pharmacist. [2:27]
  • Entrepreneurship, pharmacogenomics, and career transition. [9:11]
  • Transitioning from pharmacist to content creator, with insights on building a business with vulnerability and transparency. [16:19]
  • Selling a business after two years of growth and scaling. [21:34]
  • Selling a pharmacy business, including the importance of mentors, due diligence, and a clean break. [26:32]
  • Adapting pharmacy businesses for success in today’s world. [31:40]
  • Embracing growth and personal development as an entrepreneur. [36:18]
  • Various income streams, including coaching, teaching, and pharmacy work. [39:40]
  • Entrepreneurship and pharmacy practice with a focus on finding joy and success in the field. [42:39]

Episode Highlights

“And so it was really cool seeing that, like it’s not the smartest person or the most qualified person who can build their own thing.” – Jamie Wilkey [3:47]

“Saving gives you such a buffer. And I really think it’s kind of a secret sauce for succeeding in entrepreneurship. When you don’t need your business to turn a profit the next day and aren’t white knuckling it saying, I have to have a paycheck by the end of this week. It becomes more fun and a creative pursuit like a hobby that I’m going to figure out. But I’m also going to get paid too. And it’s so different and so fun.” – Jamie Wilkey [16:57]

“In a way being vulnerable and saying like, I hate retail, I gotta get out. And I’m passionate about precision medicine so I’m doing this one way or another, makes it easier to jump on board because people can see themselves in you when you’re first starting.” – Jamie Wilkey [18:57]

“Just start, just do the thing. Put yourself out there, start solving a problem in the world and don’t overthink it. Put your energy into action.” -Jamie Wilkey [31:42]

“I feel like it’s riskier just to stay in your job with no other revenue options than to build something on the side a few hours a week and think in terms of years and decades rather than needing a quick buck tomorrow.” – Jamie Wilkey [33:29]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Corrie Sanders 00:00

Hi YFP Community. Corrie Sanders here host of the Pharmacy Innovators segment of the YFP Podcast. Pharmacy Innovators is designed for pharmacist navigating the entrepreneurial journey. In this series we feature stories and strategies to help guide current and aspiring pharmacy entrepreneurs. Today we have Dr. Jamie Wilkey, a PharmD who loves what she does and brings passion and happiness to the pharmacy profession. Jamie has had a varied career from working in retail pharmacy to owning, scaling and selling her own company. She also works as a consultant for top universities. Jamie is optimistic about the future of pharmacy and knows great things are ahead. For those pharmacists who are willing to push boundaries, think big and use the full extent of their education. Today, you can find her happily living debt free with her four boys and being outside as much as humanly possible while enjoying Utah’s National Parks. I’m excited to share so many points of growth from Jamie’s optimistic perspective and hope you will find this episode to be inspiring from not only the lens of pharmacy, but how Jamie’s attitude and perseverance has served her work life balance. Please welcome to the podcast, Dr. Jamie Wilkey. Jamie, welcome to the podcast. We’re excited to have you here.

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  01:10

Thank you, Corrie! This is gonna be so fun!

Corrie Sanders 01:13

And I know that you’ve done a lot of podcasts in the past, you have a very public content platform. So we won’t go too deep into your background. But for those that don’t know you, why don’t you just start with briefly describing your path in pharmacy with school and training and any additional certificates you might have.

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  01:29

Sure, Cory, so I grew up in Wyoming. So I went to University of Wyoming pharmacy school, which was one of the best decisions I ever made, graduated as a 24 year old and I started making a six figure salary. And I was like over the moon like, this is why I went to pharmacy school. So I could be a girl with a doctorate degree earning like $130,000 a year and not have a career ladder. I could just do that and go part time when I had kids. And so that’s what I did. I worked full time for a few years. And then I ultimately had four little boys. Two years apart, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. And it really helped to have a pharmacy job where I could just go part time during all those years of having babies and toddlers. And so I worked part time for many years at Walgreens. Ultimately, after 10 years, I had still been at Walgreens and I felt like, Oh man, this job that I thought was like so perfect. And it really did serve me well for a decade. Ah, there’s no career ladder, there’s no growth. I’m like on the hamster wheel doing the same thing. And I’ll probably keep doing it for another 30 years unless I change something. And so Corrie, really the thing that changed my whole career was just getting on LinkedIn. Until then I didn’t even have a LinkedIn account. In the summer of 2020, I created an account to look for a new job. And once I saw other pharmacists on there, like doing their own thing, not just working retail, hospital, or as an MSL, it felt like I was coming out of a dark cave into like the light of potential. And it was just so exciting to me to see that like, oh, I don’t have to rely on getting a new job or getting more certifications to build a dream life like, these other people are doing it themselves. I’m gonna jump in the race, I can do it too. I have no idea what I’m doing. But clearly, like your future is determined by you. And I want to just try my hand at it. So I just got on LinkedIn and started writing on there everyday kind of documenting, like, what the heck I’m doing like, here I am this retail girl, I have no residency, no fellowship, no certifications, I’ve literally just been clocking into a job for a decade, and only doing CEs required to keep my license like, I loved my job. But I was not overly engaged in being a pharmacist. And so it was really cool seeing that, like it’s not the smartest person or the most qualified person who can build their own thing. It’s just the person who thinks they can. And so also I saw the pattern very quickly that like the people who have an audience who are teaching other people who are like monetizing their knowledge in some way, are very consistent at writing online, was like, well, that’s free. I don’t know what I’m doing. But I’m like, such a nerd for habits. Like I will set a habit every single day to write online every day. So that’s what I did. And it ultimately turned into me turning into an entrepreneur, and starting my own business because I writing not only on LinkedIn, but I was like on Instagram, the only social media account I had and learning about pharmacogenomics. I started like posting to my friends like hey, did you know a genetic test, like change prescribing for the rest of your life? I think this is so cool, but I want to try this on someone, does anyone have trouble with like medicine that you want to like let me practice on? And so many of my friends raise their hands and neighbors came out of the woodworks that like oh my gosh, I’m struggling with medicine. Can you help me? That I started buidling a business before I even had a business before I had an LLC or done any of the paperwork. And so it was really cool to like validate ideas out of the gate in a really scrappy way that was totally me to just start earning money and Corrie, I tell you, once you like actually charge for your services as a pharmacist, oh, really lights a fire under you that like, wow, I just earned way more helping one patient on a zoom call, then, like a day in the pharmacy. And so it was really cool and empowering to one, see how working in a new way, like lit a fire in me that I wasn’t just like a robot, checking the boxes that I like, help people in new ways. And two that, like, what it was like to help someone and to get a raving review and like really feel like I helped their life. So once I did that, it felt like, okay, the time is ticking on my retail career. It’s been cool, but I can’t do this forever. And so I just, it was so scrappy, Corrie, like just talking to friends and neighbors reaching out on LinkedIn to prescribers out here in Utah. I built my own consulting practice where I saw patients remotely and in their clinics, and just was like a pharmacogenomic pharmacist. And how did I become that from a Walgreens girl, I got a certificate. I did like the 16 hour CE certificate like yeah, now I’m PGX certified like, it took a week. It was not hard, because we’re drug experts, and we just so undervalue our expertise. And the biggest learning you get is like by actually doing it. And by helping and people don’t care. They just know like, you’re a drug expert. If it takes you a while to figure it out behind the scenes before you meet with me, I don’t care, just help me. And so that was really cool. Okay, that was kind of long. I’ll start I’ll start to speed up now. And so as I’m like helping people, one on one, I’m also building on LinkedIn, and sharing like, all of all of the ups and downs of entrepreneurship. And a number of people started keep repeating, reaching out to me on direct messages, and like, hey, that’s, I love what you’re building. Can you teach me how? And so ultimately, like, guys, I’m still at Walgreens, because you can’t just quit your job overnight, unless you’re completely financially independent. And I’m working in the cracks on my time. And, oh, I have four kids, you know. So I have no time. But I want to teach other pharmacists this. And so one of my friends gave me really good advice. She was like Jamie, just create a little mini online course, that way you can teach people at like, their own speed, it doesn’t take your time, create it once. And just help them that way. And so that was awesome advice. So I just did and Corrie, I tell you what that first course was like, so awkward and bad. I just like got on Zoom and recorded, like 12 different lessons without like a PowerPoint or anything, it was just me talking. But it had the core of what they want it and I sold that to 11 people for $500. Like, here you go, tell me what you liked to tell me what you hated. Tell me what I could have improved. And they were really candid and honest and saying like I loved this. This I could have used more of. Don’t include this. And so what turned out is my scrappy product, then I could polish and redo like rerecord with good visuals and resources, then I could turn around and sell it for $1,000. And so that’s what I started doing in mid 2021. Started selling my online course, just through my LinkedIn posts, not like ads or anything because I still didn’t know how to do ads. Started selling that. And it grew and grew and grew and grew and grew and grew. And ultimately, after two and a half years, I’d earned more than a million dollars in revenue from that little course, which was just wild to me to see how like one digital asset can grow in value and in reach. So ultimately, we helped more than 350 pharmacists understand and build like their own pharmacogenomic practice, and it was really cool. Where do you want me to go with this story?

 

Corrie Sanders 09:11

I’m gonna I’m gonna break it down even further when I say that that was a great bird’s eye view to start with with, you know, where your training was where you spent a lot of your initial pharmacy experience, then ultimately, where you saw a gap and a need in care and how you pivoted to something that could be monetized in a sustainable working way over time. So I want to I’m going to chunk it up just because I want the audience to really learn about your mindset and the steps that you had taken at certain points during that story. Let’s start with your path to entrepreneurship in general. So it sounds like you heard about pharmacogenomics through some kind of source and you’re like, Wow, this is something that’s totally applicable to practice. And while you were still practicing in retail, you started building out a pharmacogenomics consulting company, is that correct? 

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  09:57

Correct. Yes. 

Corrie Sanders  09:59

So reaching out to different providers on LinkedIn. And then ultimately, were you working for part time at Walgreens at that point, or and you were able to take on a couple additional days in clinic? How did that transition look like between your retail position and taking on consulting and either a part time or eventually a full time manner?

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  10:18

Yeah, so I was at Walgreens mostly full time, it was probably like 30 hours a week. And so in my days off, I would see patients when I was not at Walgreens. And then when I ultimately got into a clinic, and they wanted to have me there, I just gave them my schedule on advanced and said, like, got it most Fridays, I will be here, like, fill it up with my patients on Fridays and just batch it like, I would love to be here every day. But until then just batch it on Friday. And they’re like, great, we’re happy to have you. That’s when you’re available. Patients don’t know. 

Corrie Sanders  10:52

Like you’re not there, Monday through Friday!

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  10:53

Yes, behind the scenes like we’re next available is this Friday or next Friday, when would you like it? And so it made it easier to batch things and to like, validate that this is working and see the revenue coming in. Because although it wasn’t thrilled with my Walgreens job, it still has an awesome paycheck. And it’s still a good job. And so I was not about to like just burn the bridge quit and then hope entrepreneurship works. Because I have no experience. I’ve never done this before. I do not come from an entrepreneurial family. So it’s definitely like figuring it out. But while you’re balancing a job, like a job is such a good resource to give you the safety net, to build something on the side that it felt like other than missing time watching Netflix, there really wasn’t a downside. Because I’m getting experience and learning when people said no or no thanks, like it it taught me something too. It wasn’t like, Well, this has to succeed, or it was a waste of time.

Corrie Sanders 11:46

And then at what point did you make the formal transition? So you’ve got four kids at this point, it’s not like you can walk away from a job without a proof of concept going into this new consulting journey. So at what point did you decide okay, this is it, the model on the side is now something that’s worth taking on full time. What did that breaking point or tipping point look like for you? And when did that happen?

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  12:08

Once I crossed about $75,000 in revenue, it took probably eight months. I was like, oh, okay, in eight months, I earned more than I would have earned at Walgreens over that time. So then I the next step wasn’t quitting it was like, okay, just put me on PRN, like, keep me on the books, but I don’t want to be scheduled regularly anymore. So then I would fill in like, a couple times a month like for, that’s back when like COVID clinics were thinking and like, I was still in the system for a long time just to like, keep that as a safety net. And still just keep cash flowing too.

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  12:56

Which I think that’s a great way to put it is that this now your full time job has become your side gig. And your side gig has transitioned into your full time job, and any other elaborations on what chapter of life you’re in at the moment. So when we talk to pharmacy entrepreneurs, I mean, there’s a million reasons under the sun, why you shouldn’t be making this transition or taking something on whether it’s student loans or kids or it doesn’t meet your retirement goals or your risk. If you’re risk averse or risk tolerance, whatever risk strategy that you have any other insight into the chapter of your life, besides having four kids you were in at that moment that you think was helpful in making that transition, or that would be useful to know. 

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  13:33

So at this point, we have four kids, we’ve had bought our house a number of years ago, right after graduation. And so between and my husband is working, he’s working full time. So there’s dual income, which is really helpful to get a solid financial foundation. So at this point, we had our house and we’re heavily paying it off quickly and had been maxing out our 401ks every year ever since we were like new little workers, and have a really good six to 12 month savings of both of our incomes so that like if neither of us works for the next year, could we pay for life, assuming that like we both lost our job and like, couldn’t get one for a year because I am very risk averse, Corrie. I love like stability, and I love money and I love being able to make decisions from a point of abundance rather than scarcity. And so it did. It took, let’s say this point, it’s like 10 to 13 years into my career. So it was not a new grad. I had my student loans paid off. We had no debt other than our house. And my husband has a good job. He’s an accountant. And so we both are professionals. We’re in a really good place financially because we’re savers too like, we don’t have the super big house and like all the new cars and stuff. So as savers it felt like okay, we’ve been killing ourselves off like saving and working. My next big crazy goal, Corrie, was that like, I want to pay off this house, I just want to be completely debt free before I turned 40. And I kept like crunch every time I’m at work. I’m like crunching the numbers like, Okay, how many more years at Walgreens? How many extra shifts doing overtime? I felt like okay, I could do that in five years. But after I got on LinkedIn, it kind of ruined me seeing that like, but you can also make money other ways. So I just got to try this, like, can I maybe get there faster, or in a more fun way than like physically being at that retail store. While like, I don’t want to leave my kids, especially with COVID. It made it very apparent that like, white collar workers can grab their laptop and go home. Everyone else, like you’re on the frontlines, you’re a hero and like, I don’t want to be a hero. I want to be with my kids and earn money in a new way. Because I’m kind of jealous of all, like Utah. The point of view time in it’s called Silicon slopes, because there’s just like so much tech and software development that it feels like it’s in the air that like work in new ways, do cool things. And here I am, like an antiquated pharmacy job. So it felt like I just got to a point. I just got to try. I don’t have much to lose other than nothing. There’s always a job at big box stores.

Corrie Sanders  16:19

No, and that was really insightful, insightful. I love how you shared how much savings you guys had between you and your husband and the risk strategy that you had taken on. And not only some of your already accomplishments with your debt, but what were your debt goals long term? I think that that’s so important to outline prior to making a career transition, where there’s a lot of risk involved is knowing what the backup plan is, or how much time you have before that backup plan needs to be activated. So it sounds like you and your husband had a lot of healthy conversations prior to that jumping point in which you already had a proof of concept. 

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  16:51

We’re both savers and really like yes, since this is the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, like truly saving, saving saving gives you such a buffer. And I really think it’s kind of a secret sauce for succeeding in entrepreneurship is that you don’t like need your business to turn a profit the next day, you don’t need and are white knuckling it saying like, I have to have a paycheck by the end of this week. It becomes more fun and like a creative pursuit that’s like, this is a hobby that I’m going to figure out. But I’m also going to get paid from, too and it’s so different and so fun.

Corrie Sanders 17:25

And I’m sure that your clientele and people that you talk with can also tell when you’re coming from a place of abundance versus scarcity, as you said earlier, like having to make that next sale versus making the next sale when it fits into their timeline, not necessarily yours. It’s such a big difference. Yeah. So the next question I want to talk about is when you made the transition, so we talked about how you started transitioning into content creation, creation for pharmacogenomics for other pharmacists. When did that happen? You were consulting for how long? And then when did you notice on LinkedIn? Okay, this is something that other pharmacists are looking for. And I’m gonna start now doing this on the side, in addition to consulting, what did that look like?

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  18:05

Probably be like between three and six months. 

Corrie Sanders  18:07

Oh, wow. 

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  18:08

So it was still pretty fast. So it was still new ish. But I think that’s part of what made it work was like, I’m new with you. But I figured out the next three steps, and we’re doing this together, and I never wanted it to be like, I am the best. I know the way I am perfect. More like, here’s what I’ve learned, here’s general principles. Now, within this program, we’re all coming together. And we’re all precision pharmacists. And we’re all going to help each other and teach each other because there’s not only like one way to do something, what works for me in Utah may be different for someone in Arizona, and like we’re pooling knowledge and pooling resources, rather than, like, I must have everything figured out. Because I think that’s what stops a lot of pharmacists like, until I know everything and I have X amount of experience that no one will help me. In a way being vulnerable and being you and saying like, I hate retail, I gotta get out. And I’m passionate about precision medicine. So I’m doing this one way or another, like, makes it easier to jump on board because people can see themselves in you when you’re first starting.

Corrie Sanders 19:12

And I think that’s something I’ve always respected about you is the amount of transparency that you share with your audience and with the academy is, I’m not here to tell you I know every answer, but I’m here to tell you that I’m going to work through this with you. And I think that’s such a better business model than preaching you have all the answers. So I love that it’s so much more relatable with that transparency comes a lot of relationship and building abilities. But I just love the line that you said I’m here to learn with you and I’m here to learn alongside you and help you get to the same end goal. We have a similar goal in mind. So what did it and that was Arches, LLC is the LLC that you eventually started. What did Arches look like over time? So you start with just 11 minute video or 11 short videos, and then you started putting out more visual content, you started growing the audience? And did you eventually start growing employees? What did Arches evolve into over the next couple of years?

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  20:09

Yeah, so for the first year, it was just me. And then I hired my first VA – virtual assistant. Because being married to an accountant, I know all the details of like employees, and how complicated an employee could be. So I, I, we never did hire an employee, it was all contract work. And especially it was really just me, I hired one VA, it was a good learning experience for both of us. But then I found like my BFF VA, Alexa, she’s still like my best friend, six months later as a recommendation from a friend. And she and I just like tag teamed it and went full force ahead that she really was the one who ran the company. And I got to like, be the face of it and provide the content. And she did all the back end logistics that take a lot of time. And I’m not a detail oriented person. And so it worked really well. And hiring people from the Philippines are the best because they have an amazing grasp of English. They’re such hard workers. And they’re at a price point that new business owners can afford rather than someone in the United States. And I am a little afraid for the US workforce, because everyone I’ve worked with from the Philippines is like just such an incredible human and turned into a good friend that like, it was a great way to start hiring. So it was me and Alexa, it originally started with like, just pace yourself videos of like, what else do you want, I’ll create this video. And then we created a private group on Facebook. So we had a private Facebook page. And that way, we’re like talking to each other every day. And then we’d have live weekly calls, every week, we would learn something else or have like a guest come in and speak on something that was adjacent that I wasn’t an expert in, like nutrigenomics, isn’t amazing how nutrition is affected by your genetics and have like nutrigenomics speakers and lamps come in. And so I recorded all of those and added it to the course. So  by the end of two years, there’s more than 70 hours of material in there. Wow. Which was huge. But it was also really awesome. Because it felt really comprehensive to understand like how to start a business, how to work with a lab, and giving people like labs themselves to work with and how to understand state rules and regulations. And then we started creating like documents and templates, like, here’s a whole bunch of legal forms, you’re probably going to need to start. Don’t hire an attorney for $6,000, like I had to do. Here’s a good base baseline to start with and learn that like maybe legal advice can help tweak it rather than everyone starting from scratch. So we started like pooling, like what people needed and created group resources as well. That was really fun. 

 

Corrie Sanders 22:44

That’s amazing. That’s amazing. It’s worth joining the academy just to save on the legal. At what point did you start considering selling the business? So I think that this is maybe something that you haven’t discussed on a podcast just yet. So I’m excited to dive into this. But how long had you had Arches LLC, to where you hit a certain inflection point where you’re like, wow, this is now something that I can consider selling? This is a worthwhile brand. When did that come into conversation? And who brought that to your attention? Or did you bring that to the attention of others? I want to highlight on a couple of things that you’ve said, because I think these are so valuable to the listener. And I know that these things are not generally taught in pharmacy school. So you said I am just a scrappy starter, I like to start and build things. One, definitely not taught in pharmacy school. And then maturing and scaling of a business. Also not taught in pharmacy school. Two very, very different skill sets. But you also said, you know, we leaned into mentors into resources outside of healthcare, which a lot of pharmacists we’re just so siloed into our own little bubbles, our pharmacy bubbles. I think it’s important to view healthcare and view your services through the lens of someone who is not involved in health care at all. And it sounds like that was really instrumental, especially at this building and scaling and selling portion of your business, it would be hard to find a pharmacist, I think that was so successful. But I love how you took on the lens of you know, I’m going to use this as a an internship into how to build businesses, because that will be a useful skill set, I’m sure for you in the future once you decide what your next steps are. So throughout this selling and building process, you had these two gentlemen who it sounds like you met through different networks. Who else had your best interest in mind? So did you, your husband’s an accountant, but what other resources did you use to make sure that you as the seller, were doing your due diligence and your homework and this was going to be something that was beneficial not only to your academy, but to you as well? 

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  23:19

Yeah, so it was two years in two years in, I felt like I was working with a mentor who was helping me with like webinars and how to sell and I he wasn’t actually like a person who did that, he runs a company similar to mine, except it’s for finances. And I just met him through a friend. And so he didn’t, I was like, Oh my gosh, teach me how to apply this to my program. But he wasn’t like, I’m a guy who teaches webinars. I was like, No, I saw what you did teach me how to do how to do it. So it was really cool. And after that, he just said like, Would you ever consider selling this? Because what you have is such a smooth running machine. Would you ever consider selling it? And at first I was like, No, this is my baby. I love it. But then after planting that seed, and over the next couple of months seeing that like oh man like these students are doing so well. They’re outgrowing me, because I can’t keep seeing patients, growing my own practice and doing this own business they’re two. Although it’s the same topic, two very different businesses that it felt like it’s probably the most responsible thing for this group to bring in scalable leadership because I’m a very scrappy starter, Corrie, I love like starting things and building from scratch, but I don’t like maturing things and scaling. I’ve learned that about myself. I don’t even like working with teams very much. Because ultimately, so it’s me and Alexa, and then we hired a couple of the students to help with marketing and to help like nurture the relationships in there, which was awesome, but I also found myself like, I just don’t like teams, I just want to build my own thing. You know, and so that combination of seeing my personality characteristics come through and the sustainability of what I had, and wanting to like serve these people best rather than keeping it as like my pride, like, No, this is my baby, I’m gonna keep it. I really want to do what’s best for this group. And so I told him, I was like, I don’t know how to sell a company, who do I talk to? And so he introduced me to someone in Utah, who buys and sells companies. And he was awesome, turned into a really good friend. And he helped me list the company and talk to multiple buyers and sellers. Well, I’m the seller, multiple buyers. And it actually turned out kind of funny, because right before we had a buyer who was interested and was sending a letter of intent, and he’s like, Actually, can I just buy it with my friend, and we’ll run it together. Because I’ve seen the books like I love this, can we just run it together? I was like, Cool, I’m down with that, I still want to like, learn from you and hang with this group a little bit. And so we did it. And so we sold it. And we got a third of the company like an ownership. And it was really cool to work with two people outside of health care who sure have a lot of experience in scaling companies and multimillion dollar companies. And so I consider it like an internship into like, how business is done, and how to like, really help this group and scale it in a more sustainable way than like, me just trying to like Google and figure out like, Okay, how do I do this next.

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  27:45

My husband as a CPA is really good. Don’t underestimate accountants, I think they, you can use one instead of an attorney for most business questions, especially like reading contracts, and understanding like, if you’re getting your fair share accountants, oh, my gosh. Pro tip be married to an accountant, it as an entrepreneur, like it makes your life so much easier. And unless they give you the answer, you don’t want to hear! So I had him and then I did hire an attorney to help like, broker the deal and, and make sure everything looked good. But it’s I don’t know, I’m a very stress free person. And so it just felt right. And I was like, Yeah, let’s just, let’s just do it. So it was great, pretty simple and easy. I think it took like, two weeks from start to finish from like an offer to close. 

Corrie Sanders 28:47

So did you have a certain price point in mind? Was that something that that team brought to you? Is that something that outside evaluators have brought to you? Where did the price point come into mind? And then how did you guys if you don’t mind me asking divvy up ownership of the company? 

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  29:01

So the attorney I was working with helped navigate the price point. And my husband did his own math too, and was like yep, that seems very fair. So I got a six figure payout for selling my company which felt incredibly good as well as I got to keep the cash from the company which I’d saved up a ton of into too and then we just turned we created a new entity and all three of us owned it equally and then moved to the company to that entity so as a separate entity, so I still own Arches Health as my company I just run it under a different name now.

Corrie Sanders 29:37

Got it, got it. And so what are your responsibilities with this new company? So I’m assuming that’s Wealthy White Coat is what this has evolved into. What day to day responsibilities do you have with Wealthy White Coat or when you sold the company that was a clean slate and you are now free to roam and do something completely different?

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  29:54

Well, it was an evolution. So that was a year ago, we divvied it up 30,30,30 And then this January, February, I sold my share. So now they’re running it themselves. So over the course of the year, I was still like the one talking to the students and like keeping that relationship up. And they were the ones helping put in systems and to scale and to find like, partners and different income streams. Because all this time it’s, I’ve been through like one income stream like year long membership, that is it. And so they’re helping diversify different price points and ways to enter, and how to, you know, scale and bring more resources. So I had the fun part of like, being able to just keep doing what I was doing and like, have the conversations help people and keep giving them resources that they needed. So it was just fun.

Corrie Sanders 30:49

So still being the face of the company to some extent, managing the client relations. Okay, that’s interesting. 

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  30:54

Because those pharmacists are so great, I still like they’re just the best.

Corrie Sanders 31:01

You’re like, those are my babies. So this is my baby, and you have a special connection with each of them. So that’s easy to understand. And Jamie, any big lessons along the way? So we’ve covered a pretty extensive amount of ground in your professional career to this point, we’ve talked about your transition from retail to consulting, to creating something that can be bought and sold by other pharmacists, and then ultimately selling that business. Any big lessons learned along the way or big takeaways that come to top of mind when you’re thinking about an audience of pharmacy entrepreneurs, and I’m sure a lot of them want to get to this point of success. Any thoughts or any lessons that you think are worth sharing? 

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  31:40

Yes, two! One is just start, just do the thing. Put yourself out there, start solving a problem in the world and don’t overthink it, like, put your energy into action. I know our professional is so good at like overthinking and being perfect. And trying to like get all the education so that we’re the perfect person to help but like just helping and bringing your why you’re helping set you apart from anyone because everyone else is learning, learning, learning, stressing writing a plan. And if you’re out there doing you’re gonna run circles around people, so do, do, do. And secondly, I would say strongly I love digital businesses and online businesses, because there’s just not the risk there is with a cash intensive business like opening a pharmacy, you have to have the building, you have to have the products, you have to have the staff, you have to have the insurance, like the startup cost is half a million dollars, at least versus like a digital business, something you can do with just you and your laptop. You can start I think I funded myself $2,500 from my own checking account to start, and I’ve never had to like, put money back in because it’s all been profitable from there. There’s just no risk. And it’s a lot of reward. And even if it and don’t think of it in terms of like, will this win or lose? Will I succeed? Or is this a waste of my time think of it as like, I’m learning how to be relevant in today’s world, because it’s very different than anything in the past, especially with pharmacy and those who can adapt and like meet the needs of the world in a new way. You don’t have to have anyone’s permission, go do it. And it’s just really fun. And it’s not a risk. I feel like it’s riskier just to stay in your job with no other revenue options than to like, build something on the side a few hours a week and think in terms of years and decades rather than needing a quick buck tomorrow.

Corrie Sanders 33:46

I think that’s really valuable insight. And I completely agree with you, I think that the way that pharmacy is heading, it’s going to bode well for those that think outside the box. And that take on additional business ideas or opportunities that really leverage our clinical skill set. Because I just feel very strongly with the development of technology, that pharmacy is going to look very different in 10 years. So just starting and doing and cutting down on the Netflix and exchanging time. Outside I feel like the payoffs are really there. So Jamie, what do you see next for you? Did you when you sold this business? Did you have another idea in mind? Has that started coming to fruition? Or are you just really living in the moment and taking in the fact that you’ve built a successful business and been able to sell it at a price point that gives you some personal capital to do what you want what is next for you on the horizon?

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  34:43

So I’m gonna have the best summer of my life this summer with my kids and work very minimally and just really enjoy what I’ve built. I’ve always I’m such a high achiever and like always wanting to build the next thing and go, go go but I’m intentionally stepping back and like I just want to hang out with my kids and enjoy my garden and be outside all day, because I love being outside. I’m going to do that for this season. But then Corrie, this fall, my youngest goes to first grade. So for the first time in 13 years, all of my children will be at school all day. And there’s not like this huge interruption with like, right now he’s in half day kindergarten. So like, my whole day is broken up, I’m gonna focus and I want to build something big and awesome that I can really like sink my teeth into and like, be in it for the long run for pharmacy. And I’m actually really interested in communities, I feel like communities are the next. Not the next big thing, but like the next really effective way people learn and grow and change. As someone who’s built online courses, I know online courses are awesome, but almost no one finishes them. And it’s very up to like the person who’s doing it their impetus to finish. And I’m so intrigued with communities and bringing people together in like a private place that helps them grow and support each other because we’re all humans, and we just need connections with each other. And I don’t know, I’m, I’m figuring that out. But it’s gonna be something with a community and it’s gonna be awesome, Corrie.

Corrie Sanders 36:18

Yeah, I think that that it’s very natural to want human connection and human support. And I you are placed in a perfect position as someone who’s built a pharmacy community and a very niche area of what is that community look like and what worked well, and what didn’t work well, and being able to build off that I think will be a very successful starting point for you. So I’m excited to see where that goes. 

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  36:38

Well ,even if it’s not, it’s just going to be fun. Like, that’s how we figure it out. Like, and I almost want an element like, I need to doubt it’s going to work to do it anyway. Because if we you can’t wait until something feels like okay, this is absolutely a slam dunk, I think you have to have an element of like, is this more than I can chew? Is this a little too ambitious to be the right size of project for me or for you for anyone that like, if it feels so easy, then it’s, it’s, it’s probably not right for you like a little bit of growth and stretching and like that scariness of like, Oh, could I really do this is, is good for us and part of the thrill of pushing ourself.

 

Corrie Sanders 37:23

Jamie, do you think that that’s a characteristic that you always had? Or do you think that wanting to lean into growth and personal development was something that you realized is a priority once you took the transition into being an entrepreneur, because I’m thinking of the average pharmacist who is going to hear that and be like, I do not want that. I want something that’s a slam dunk, I want something that I know is going to be something that I can count on every month. I feel like pharmacists are just very risk averse in general. So do you feel like that’s always been in your nature? Or do you think that now you’ve had a taste of it? That’s what you want to do. And that’s part of your higher purpose and bigger purpose?

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  37:58

Well, I’m an oldest daughter, so I feel like it’s like baked into who I am. But also like seeing, really seeing what it’s like to earn money yourself, and how much you can earn and how consistent it can be that like, I just can’t go back to a job that’s out of my control. Again, like because I love not having risk. And I don’t feel like what I do is risky, it just takes time. So unless Netflix for me, it feels like the ultimate long term strategy that almost no one else is going to do because it takes work and a job is more comfortable. So like I I strongly believe I am like the least risky person. But I have a long timeline and willing to experiment because I know that like this is what it takes to succeed is like trying and being in public and doing in public. And most pharmacists don’t dare do that. It’s like the scariest thing to say, like, tell the world what you’re building. And I’m working with a couple of one on one clients right now. And that’s where some of them are at the point like okay, you’ve built your business, and I need you to create a social media post, just like on Facebook or Instagram, wherever you are, and just tell people what you’ve built. So they can celebrate with you. You’re not asking for like clients yet. You’re just saying like, Hey, I started a business like go female power. They won’t do it, Corrie! They’re like, oh my gosh, no, no, I’d rather just teach about diabetes than say I have a business because that feels salesy and like, I don’t want people to see me like, well, you have to be able to present yourself online to help people and it’s not salesy.

Corrie Sanders  38:21

Yes. And it’s in the world of digital digital business this is par for the course at this point.

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  39:45

Yeah. It’s par for the course!

Corrie Sanders 39:48

And I had a friend actually summarize something for me at one point, which is why I started looking into the transition of being an entrepreneur and working for myself as well. He does very well in something that’s not healthcare related, but He’s rewarded for how hard he works. And he told me as a high performer and a high achiever, I will never be in a salaried position because it would take away a lot of my drive. And I feel like when I heard that it was a lightbulb in my head of, I’m working so hard, and I’m not going to go anywhere, and a percentage increase of my income in a substantial amount of time. And so for me, that was such a lightbulb moment. And I think that’s kind of summarized by what you said is that I now that I make money for myself, and I know what that tastes like. That’s how I want to keep my income for years to come. So I also one of my last questions, Jamie is what other streams of income have you leaned into at this point in time? So I know that you have teaching experience, it sounds like you still have some coaching going on? Are you keeping your hands busy with anything else, aside from the pharmacogenomics business and Wealthy White Coat? 

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  40:47

So I have a couple streams of income that are pretty fun that I’ve built, kind of for myself, that is awesome that we hear about recurring revenue. And I’m like, Oh, I did that a few years ago. So now I get to enjoy it. So a couple of ways I earn money. Alright, I do have some one on one people that I work with that, like, have found me through through LinkedIn, and like we’ve just jivved, so I’m helping them one-on-one. It’s way less intensive than like, a full program, but it’s really fun and energizing for me. And for them. I also teach for the University of Florida, they have me help, help review, update their curriculum and proctor some of their courses within the precision medicine program in their school of pharmacy, which is awesome, it’s so fun. And my old boss, who he used to work at Walgreens. Now he works at the Student Health Center at the local college here, he asked if I would come Thursday afternoons from like two to 6pm to help fill in while he goes to choir practice. And I was like, You know what, I actually let my license lapse. So let’s see what it’s like to be a pharmacist and like, get a steady paycheck again. So I’ve actually started doing that again, just like for the fun of it. And it’s been really cool Corrie to have like W2 income and my own income all mixed together. That because there really is something to say about a job and like that you can clock in and clock out and earn a good salary. pharmacists have a good salary. And for me, I kind of ebb and flow with employment that I like like it, but then I can earn so much more myself. But then just that ease of like clocking in and out. So it’s been kind of fun to go back and forth. Because first I swore off pharmacy like I’ve done and now like, you know what, this is actually pretty fun in this environment with like these cute college students who just need birth control, Adderall, and antibiotics like, I could do this. So those are the main streams I have. I also do some advising and speaking but that’s anyway.

Corrie Sanders  42:44

But the underlying thing is that one, you can continue to pivot as a pharmacy entrepreneur. So you let your license lapse, who cares, you can go back and get it. And it’s not a huge deal. If you want to go back to something that you’ve known in the past with the W2 job, but to when you describe all these things, you’re saying it’s so fun, every single job you’ve taken on is so fun. And I think that it gets lost in this traditional education wheel where we go from undergrad to pharmacy school, to residency to certificates to additional training all these things you just continue on in this wheel. And it’s so much of it is performance based that you lose touch with why we really went into pharmacy, at least that’s how I feel is I got to a certain point where I just looked back and I was like, wow, I’ve done everything right. But it still feels wrong. And that is scary to me. And so I love that you’re at a point now where every job you’re describing, say it’s energizing for me, it’s fun, and that’s what ultimately keeps you happy and working overtime is that it’s this cliche sentiment where if you’re having fun, you never work a day in your life, totally get it. But that’s the freedom that you’ve given yourself is that work should be fun, it should be an energizing part of your life, not something that drains you for 40 hours a week. So I love hearing that you’re at that at that point. And I’ve got one more question and then I’ll ask where people can find you if they want to get in touch with you. But my last question is, what would you say to an aspiring pharmacy entrepreneur? So we shared those two lessons earlier of, you know, just starting and keeping moving. But if you’re sitting at the point of contemplating an idea within pharmacy practice and looking at something that’s in a non traditional setting, anything specific that you would share with that pharmacist?

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  44:25

I would say just get vocal and get online because you will stand out especially if you’re doing anything within any realm of health care, health care people are silent stalkers and scrollers. So if you have a voice and are consistent, you will stand out and you people will attract opportunities to you. And so the table start flipping instead of you like reaching out like Will anyone work with me? Will anyone want me? If you consistently stick to a topic and teach on it and just own it, people start coming out of the woodwork for you. And it’s just the best feeling that you don’t have to muscle your way into your own business, you find that like, just talk about something, help someone. And more opportunities come to you that like, oh, wow, I can work for this person or this person wants to hire me or like, it all comes together if you’re willing to like stand up and stand out, because few people are willing to do it. And so really like, that’s what magnetizes people to you, and get you out of this weird rat race of like applying to hundreds of jobs and getting more letters after your name, to feel like you’re the best candidate, don’t play that game. It’s an antiquated game, and you’re gonna get a position that you don’t want. And so even within entrepreneurship, like being willing to stand out, because you gotta stand out to be an entrepreneurship, and so just practice talking online every day, it might scare you to death, but really like that life skill, if you can get the hang of it. Like the right people will find you the world is your oyster. And just think of it as a skill and not as a personality trait that you either can or can’t do, because everything is learnable.

Corrie Sanders  46:01

I love that. Well, Jamie, this has been so great. I feel like we’ve covered a lot of ground. And you’ve done so much in the past decade that I think we broke it down into chunks that will be easily absorbed by our listeners. And this is coated with lots of different lessons. So thank you for being so vulnerable and transparent. You’ve been so gracious with your time and you do that online so well. Where can people find you if they want to learn more about what you’re doing? And about what you’ve done in the past or reach out to you independently? What’s the easiest way for our listeners to get in contact with you?

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  46:29

Oh, just on LinkedIn. That’s like, what social media I use. I love LinkedIn. You should be on LinkedIn. If you’re not, create an account. It’s the best thing you can do for your career. Find me there Jamie Wilkey LinkedIn, send me a DM I’ll talk to you. It’ll be fun. 

Corrie Sanders  46:45

That sounds great. Thank you again, Jamie Wilkie for being here. Congratulations on all your recent success. And we’re excited to see where you go in the next couple of years and even long term seeing where you end up.

Dr. Jamie Wilkey  46:57

 You too, Corrie! Thanks!

Tim Ulbrich  47:00

[DISCLAIMER] As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates publish such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 352: Pharmacy Innovators with Kelley Carlstrom, PharmD, BCOP


In another episode of the Pharmacy Innovator series, Dr. Kelley Carlstrom, CEO and founder of KelleyCPharmD, discusses entrepreneurship in oncology pharmacy.

Episode Summary

On this episode, we have another segment of the YFP Podcast’s Pharmacy Innovator series! Hosted by Corrie Sanders, PharmD, this series is tailored for pharmacists venturing into entrepreneurship, featuring stories and strategies for aspiring pharmacy entrepreneurs.  

This week, we delve into the dynamic world of entrepreneurship within oncology pharmacy with Dr. Kelley Carlstrom. Kelley is a board-certified oncology pharmacist and CEO and founder of KelleyCPharmD, which addresses crucial gaps in clinical oncology training. Dr. Carlstrom shares her experiences working in traditional and non-traditional settings, healthcare technology, insights on her transition from employee to entrepreneur, her evolving business model, and opportunities in oncology for pharmacists. Kelley also discusses how to monetize your expertise and the value of communities when starting a business.

About Today’s Guest

Kelley Carlstrom is the CEO and founder of KelleyCPharmD, an education company that fills the considerable gap in clinical oncology training. She is passionate about democratizing oncology pharmacy education and increasing accessibility and inclusion through her unique L.E.A.R.N Oncology Method.

Kelley received her Doctor of Pharmacy from The University of Colorado and completed post-graduate residency training at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center and Dana-Farber Cancer Institute in Boston, MA. 

She is a board-certified oncology pharmacist that has worked in a variety of traditional and non-traditional settings including at large academic and small community cancer centers, as a consultant for a large electronic medical record implementation, and in the healthcare technology space helping create digital products for oncology clinicians and patients. 

Kelley is also a prolific content creator, sharing clinical and motivational pearls about oncology. She is part of the LinkedIn Top Voices program, an invitation-only program that recognizes and celebrates the most influential and engaging professionals on LinkedIn.

Key Points from the Episode

  • Entrepreneurship pathway in oncology pharmacy with Dr. Kelley Carlstrom. [0:00]
  • Career transition and business ideas for pharmacists. [2:34]
  • Starting a business in oncology and program design. [6:24]
  • Building a successful oncology pharmacy business model. [12:27]
  • Transitioning from consulting to entrepreneurship with a pharmacist. [18:00]
  • Leveraging clinical skills for business growth. [23:40]
  • LinkedIn usage and its impact on pharmacy businesses. [28:37]
  • Oncology pharmacy roles and opportunities. [36:07]
  • Oncology pharmacy training and business model. [42:27]
  • Entrepreneurship and decision-making with KelleyCPharmD. [49:35]

Episode Highlights

“You know, once you have a problem, it’s great. But then you have to figure out what’s the best way to solve it both for the both for the customer and for you. Like you don’t want to build a business that you don’t want to run.” – Kelley Carlstrom [7:44]

“So I think when the number one thing I would encourage pharmacists to do is to connect with people that are interesting to them, not just you know, other pharmacists.” -Kelley Carlstrom [30:20]

“When I got into entrepreneurship, I realized you need to make decisions very quickly. And if you’re always second guessing yourself, it’s not you’re you’re not going to be successful.” -Kelley Carlstrom [48:11]

“There are no bad decisions in entrepreneurship. It’s just you have to get off of the table and start walking and start doing things. And that’s how you learn.” – Kelley Carlstrom [48:55]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Corrie Sanders  00:00

Hi YFP community, Corrie Sanders here, host of the Pharmacy Innovator segment of the YFP Podcast. Pharmacy Innovators is designed for pharmacists navigating the entrepreneurial journey. In this series we feature stories and strategies that help guide current and aspiring pharmacy entrepreneurs. Today we have Dr. Kelley Carlstrom, known on social media as the oncology pharmacist. Kelley is the CEO and founder of Kelley C PharmD, an education company that fills a considerable gap in Clinical Oncology training. Dr. Carlstrom is a board certified oncology pharmacist that has worked in a variety of traditional and non traditional settings. This includes a large academic medical center, small community cancer centers, and then the healthcare technology and startup space. Kelley is also a prolific content creator and was recently invited to be part of the LinkedIn top voices team, an invitation only program that recognizes and celebrates the most influential and engaging professionals on LinkedIn. Dr. Carlstrom is a returning guest the podcast and was featured in August of 2021 on episode 217. We will link to that episode in the show notes as it provides great detail about Kelley’s background and pharmacy journey. Today we speak to Kelley about the timing for her jump from employee to entrepreneur and dive into her unique business model how her business has evolved over time, and opportunities in oncology for both Kelley and the pharmacy profession as a whole. Kelley share some great lessons surrounding monetization of her expertise as an oncology pharmacist, to include the value of various communities and reflections on decision making both inside and outside of clinical practice. Now that we’ve set the stage, let’s dive into today’s main event. Our incredible guest, Dr. Kelley Carlstrom. Kelly, welcome back to the podcast. It’s great to have you.

Kelley Carlstrom  01:46

Thank you so much. I’m excited to chat again.

Corrie Sanders  01:49

Well, I know that you and Tim recorded in August of 2021. And during that time, you guys did a great job of really diving into your educational background, your pharmacy career path, what we want to really dive into today is that entrepreneurship pathway, and what exactly that looked like for you when that started in your career. And we’ll get into some details about your mindset and growth. So let’s start with really diving in to the consulting portion of your career. Before that you were in a large academic medical center, you were in an outpatient oncology clinic, and then you transitioned into consulting. So let’s talk about that consulting. How did you find that job? What important mindset shifts happened during that job? And how did that ultimately set you up for success with where you are now?

Kelley Carlstrom  02:34

Yeah, I love talking about this transition, because it was completely unexpected. In my career, I thought that I would be in a clinical practice role my entire career, you know, I spent a decade training in school and in residency to get that type of role I was in, and then all of a sudden, I was I was entertaining, moving out of that role. And I really had a lot of doubts and a lot of conversations with myself during that time about whether I really wanted to do that. And what it came down to was me kind of thinking through what’s the worst that could happen. You know, it sounded like a really interesting opportunity, this consulting. And being in clinical practice was kind of the safe bet. Like I knew I would always have a job that would be very, very comfortable. And consulting was a complete black box. I knew nothing about it. I didn’t really know what they were hiring me to do, which was a Cerner implementation, I had always worked with Epic in the hospitals I worked at. So it was very scary. And I just decided to jump in and see what doors it opened. And it opened a lot of doors both. From a job perspective, and like networking perspective, but also a lot of doors kind of, for me personally, kind of my mindset, how I thought about how I thought about where my career would be, because when I first started consulting, you know, they were paying me very well. And I didn’t, I had never seen a pharmacist in that type of role where I was there, essentially, for the knowledge I had. I wasn’t doing any of the building in the EMR. They had a whole team of analysts that were building, they were hiring me as that clinician, that liaison between their clinical end users, their doctors, nurses, pharmacists, and their Cerner builders, they needed somebody in between to kind of talk both languages. And that was really the first time I’d heard about that role. And that that led me to see like, man, there’s a lot of skills pharmacists have that we don’t talk about, we don’t recognize, we don’t market. And that’s that’s what really opened my eyes to thinking, oh, there’s a lot more out here that I could, that I could dive into. And so that’s how my business ideas kind of got started. I started having a whole bunch of ideas about how how else I could solve problems besides this kind of one specific problem I was solving during my consulting contract. And over time, I just started to iterate on that and lean into it. And it’s been a very interesting journey.

Corrie Sanders  05:06

Yeah, it’s great to hear you say that. Pharmacists aren’t very, don’t realize maybe some of the clinical or some of the skills that we had outside of our clinical training and our knowledge. And it really takes seeing the profession through a different lens to maybe bring that into fruition, and shine a light on some of the skills that we have that have nothing to do with clinical practice. But really what role we play in a team based care model, whether that’s from, you know, an electronic EMR perspective, or whether that’s from a direct patient care perspective. So I love that you highlighted that.

And then Kelley, let’s talk about how the company that you have now started to build off of that consulting practice. So you said you started getting some ideas for your company. What did that look like? Did you have people coming to you with specific questions? Were you getting questions from the company itself about oncology? How did the idea for your business really set a seed during that time?

Kelley Carlstrom  06:04

I was getting a lot of questions on LinkedIn for years where I’ve been active for years, but I honestly wasn’t paying that close attention, which is funny now that I look at it in hindsight. You know, you don’t pay attention until you start paying attention, right? And then the light bulb goes off. And you’re like, Man, why didn’t I think about this years ago? But I had a lot of ideas about about starting a business. You know, it was I had stumbled into a couple podcasts, a couple heard of people heard a couple of people talking about entrepreneurship. And I’m like, Okay, that sounds interesting. But I didn’t really there. This was kind of the beginning of the, of the pharmacy entrepreneur, kind of wave, if you will. And so there wasn’t a lot of people talking about it. So I had a couple ideas that were that were ruminating in my brain. But just all of a sudden, one day, I was answering a LinkedIn message. And everybody asked me the same question on LinkedIn, which was, hey, I’m new to oncology. You talk a lot about oncology on LinkedIn, can you point me to somewhere where I can learn it? And I was like, and I always I got this question so much, I had a copy, paste kind of ready to go of like, five resources that I send to everybody. And just one day, and I’m like, I’ve been answering the same question for a long time. Obviously, there’s a gap here, these people are not residency trained, they’re not going to go back to do residency. They’re working in cancer centers, taking care of cancer patients. And they should be, you know, they want to be better. And they should be supported in this. And I’m like, Alright, I’ve got the training, got the knowledge, how could I help them do this? And that that kind of started started the flow of of a million ideas. You know, once you have a problem, it’s great. But then you have to figure out what’s the best way to solve it both for the both for the customer and for you. Like you don’t want to build a business that you don’t want to run. Right? So I spent a lot of time at the beginning trying to figure out how the heck am I going to do this? Because oncology is giant.It’s not like where you can like set it and forget it, I’ll record a couple of videos and sell that and people will learn oncology. No, we get new drugs approved practically every week. It’s a it’s an ongoing thing. So it took a lot of design upfront.

Corrie Sanders  08:19

And let’s talk about that design. So when you touched base with Tim, it was almost three years ago now. And you were just about to launch the ELO program, which is enjoy learning oncology. So I know that that was going to be your first program within your business. How has that developed? What did that look like when you first put that out? And then ultimately, where are you today with the services and the products that you offer?

Kelley Carlstrom  08:46

Yeah, when I talked to him, I can’t believe it’s been three years – I feel I feel like I’m my mother when I say where does the time go? It goes by so fast. But I remember when I talked with Tim, I was at I was I had just finished my pilot version of my program. So when I had sold the pilot, I had reached out to the the people on my email list that I had expressed interest and I said, Hey, I’m gonna build this thing. It’s not built yet. I’m gonna build this plane as we’re flying it. And I had eight pharmacists that raised their hand that said, Yep, well, we’ll buy into this program, even though you have nothing built Kelley. I literally was building it as they were going through the content. And I took their feedback. And I took the lessons learned from that and kind of made changes and made iterations to it. And that’s kind of when I talked to Tim was when the the first official iteration was was rolling out. And it’s pretty much been the same from a structure perspective since then. So I’m going into the fourth year of that program. And it’s been when I think about the structure, you know, for pharmacists that are thinking about starting something, I really spend time take the time to spend time to really think about how you’re going to format the services that you offer. And one, you obviously want to think about it from the client perspective, like, how is the is the service that you’re offering, or the product you’re offering going to best suit the customer? But also, from your perspective. How are you going to design it? So, one, it doesn’t take up all of your day, because as a business owner, you actually have to run the business, which is, sounds like logical, right? But at the beginning, you don’t really think about how many kind of back end, if you will, things there are, you know, not just kind of bookkeeping, like the standard things. But also, marketing takes up a big chunk of my time and relationship building and just client support, customer success, things like that, like they, that takes a lot of time. So when I was building the program, I really thought about one, one challenge I have is oncology is rapidly changing. So I had to figure out how am I going to keep up with this in terms of content? And then two is, am I who’s going to do it? Is it me, or am I going to get other people to do it. And so I settled on a model where I hire other expert pharmacists to support the lesson content. So at any given time, I have 24 expert oncology pharmacists that are in my program, because I have 24 lessons. And they’re the ones that are reviewing the content, kind of making sure it’s updated. They’re the ones that are supporting my clients with clinical questions. And that takes that pressure off of me. But it also frees me up to do the operation side behind it, you know, I need to find those experts, I need to get them the content to review, I need to review their content, because the program is through my lens, it’s my kind of IP. And so just because an expert says we should include something doesn’t mean I necessarily include it, it’s just, you know, I know my customers very well I know what stage they’re at. And so I everything has to kind of filter through what the what the lenses of my client and my particular program. So when you’re designing your your business and your offers, I think it’s really important to think about all those different steps and not get bogged down in the really fun kind of sexy things at the beginning, which is like, Oh, I’m gonna, I’m gonna offer something for sale, it’s like, well, you have to, you have to really think thoughtfully about it and not not kind of box yourself in.

Corrie Sanders  12:27

And I want to highlight a couple of things that you said, especially at the beginning there about one, you had a very small cohort to start. You at eight pharmacists. And you were learning as you said, you were building the plane while you’re flying it, I think that that is instrumental to, it does not have to be a perfect business model. And it’s not going to be a perfect business model. And it is going to evolve over the course of time. So just getting started and realizing that yes, there’s going to be so many modifications and iterations of different things along the way. But all you really need is that small cohort or client base to launch yourself and to figure out what you need and the feedback and the evolution of a business. So I think that that’s really important to hold on is that it is going to not be perfect from the start. And you’re not going to have 100% market share or analysis from the second that you started your own company that will evolve over time. So let’s explain that that business model a little more just because I want listeners to really understand how valuable the business model that you’ve built is. And I think you’ve done such a great job. I mean, honestly, you are one of the pharmacy pioneers and really monetizing your clinical expertise. So you have these programs, and they’re sold directly to pharmacists that are practicing oncology. And how do they buy into that? Are they buying into each lesson individually? Are they buying into packages? Have you tiered them over time? Has that changed over time? What is ultimately the product that the consumer is buying?

Kelley Carlstrom  13:56

Yeah, great question. I have a essentially, I have a signature program, and I have a couple tiers to it. But I have one kind of main tier, one main offer that I want to sell. And the reason I want to sell it, it’s called my ELO Collaborative. The reason I want to sell it is because I know pharmacists get the best benefit from that particular program. When I was for and that’s that’s the one I’ve been building since my since my beta, my pilot project. And when I started selling it, I got people that would reach out to me and say, Hey, I don’t I don’t want this big program. I just want to do the content. And I’ll go through it on my own. And so I do have like a DIY path where people can access the program content, but they can’t access the experts in the program where which is where you can ask questions and get support and kind of hear, hear the experts talk through those real world nuances which are so important in oncology. And so that came about because people were asking the market was literally he asking me to sell them something. So that’s great when that happens, but I think you really do also need to know, how do you get your customers the best outcome, because at the end of the day, if they’re buying into your program or service, and they’re not getting an outcome, they’re not going to talk about you, you’re not going to have that word of mouth, which you do need and is beneficial in any type of business. So I think really, really honing in on on what that offer is. Because if you have a lot of offers, it’s hard to focus on one particular one. So I do have tiers to my main offer. And then over time, I’ve, I’ve considered other kind of smaller offers that I’m always kind of experimenting with, which I think is a really important part of entrepreneurship is experimentation, which I didn’t really understand. At the beginning, I wish I had done more of it initially. It’s easy to get kind of stuck in, like, Oh, this is what so and so guru says, or this is what some other entrepreneur’s doing, I’m going to I’m going to do it exactly for my business. But that’s our businesses, everybody, every business is different, particularly healthcare, clinician based businesses, I have found are very different, like marketing tactics don’t work the same as they do for, you know, other types of businesses. So I think experimentation is really important. But so I’ve got that name program, I’ve got tiers to that program, I also have some individual courses that I’m now starting to sell, I’m actually rolling those out now. And I also do, I also offer like one-to-one mentorship matching. So pharmacists that want to work one-to-one with an experienced oncology pharmacist, kind of like a preceptor and a residency where you can talk with them about maybe a QI project, or maybe you want to change roles, and you need to create a case presentation to present at an interview and you want some help with that. I also do some matching with things like that, but at the core of my business is this ELO collaborative program. That’s what I’m known for. And I help I help pharmacists that are working in oncology today, develop their baseline knowledge, and that’s a very clear kind of avatar or, or target client as well, you know. When I started, I was pretty broad. And I included people that were interested in oncology. But that is challenging, because if you’re not working in oncology today, and you’re trying to learn this really complex field, it’s much harder because you’re not applying it at work. So I would encourage listeners also to think, who is your best fit client, and it feels counterintuitive to narrow and to niche down. But it’s actually the best thing for a small business is be super, super clear. Because when people come across my website, when they come across my LinkedIn, when they meet me at a conference, it’s it’s very clear who I helped. And when it’s clear, that means other people can refer me very easily.

Corrie Sanders  18:00

And that is such an important point. I also love that you talk about experimenting a little bit. And not only using and leveraging experimenting to get to that target audience. But there’s no wrong and experimenting as an entrepreneur, trying to figure out who your ultimate end user is how that changes over time. And then it sounds like you’re doing a great job of also getting feedback from your clients to make sure that you’re providing the services that they want, you’re providing the services that they paid for. And that ultimately, you know, what they’re purchasing is, what they’re getting, and how you can help fill some more gaps and some more needs based off of those responses to I think that’s really great. So Kelly, I want to step back a little bit further. So we talked about the nuances of your business, and the tears and how that’s evolved over time. Let’s talk about the transition from that consulting role to ultimately stepping out and having your own business. Was there something that was very black and white, where the contract ended? And then you decided, Oh, this is the perfect time that I’ll do that. Were you kind of you know, one foot in each camp where you were doing both of them simultaneously, and then you eventually made the jump? What did that transition ultimately look like for you?

Kelley Carlstrom  19:12

Yeah, I straddled a lot for a long time. And I think I think most pharmacists could probably appreciate the fact that I was very risk averse. When I was in clinical practice. I think a lot of pharmacists are it’s probably a bias for who they let into pharmacy school or at least did when I applied you know, it’s just a natural tendency to be like, this is risky, I don’t want to do it. But when I jumped into that consulting role that kind of gave me that initial like zing if you will, of what it felt like to take a risk and it didn’t, it wasn’t terrible. Like alright, I survived this risk and I got a lot of benefit from it. So that that led me to think okay, what’s the next next risk I should take? Now with that said, I still I was very cautious at the beginning because I had so many ideas. I knew zero about business. Like in my pharmacy program, we had that classic, you know, business course, which was really an independent pharmacy course. So I didn’t take it because I wasn’t interested in it. So I knew nothing about business. And I was really nervous at the beginning, like, I don’t know anything about running this business. So I didn’t want to invest a lot of money into it, I was willing to invest my time, kind of my sweat equity, if you will. And that’s what I did. I had like, all the free tools, my email tool was free. I did pay, I did invest for some business coaching upfront, but for the most part, I tried to spend as little as possible until I validated the idea and people were paying me money. And then when that when I got that validation, and I started investing more, I realized, okay, if I can continue my day job and have the revenue, the income from that supporting my life, and anything extra that I make from my business is you know, is I don’t need to pay myself, I can reinvest it in the business. So that first pilot that I ran, I didn’t, I made zero money, I lost money on it, actually. But that didn’t matter to me, because I was getting a lot of feedback. And I was like validating the idea. And so I kept working I was I did consulting for almost three years. So during the pandemic, I actually had the opportunity to take a role in a in a startup. So a healthcare tech startup that was building oncology software tools for clinicians and for patients. And so what that allowed me to do was continue to straddle those things, I was building my business while I was still making a full time salary. And I did that for about a year and a half, and then transitioned into part time. So I actually got recruited out of that role. And this is a good little side caveat about LinkedIn. I always talk about how great LinkedIn is. And I will continue forever talking about it because pharmacists do not use it enough, we need to use it more. But I got recruited. And I was not looking for a job. But somebody reached out to me and said, Hey, I see you posting all this stuff, because I was posting a lot of oncology content for my marketing purposes. And he said, I want you at my company, what kind of job do you want? Essentially, essentially built me a job. And I said, well, I’m building this business, I don’t want to work full time. And he said, fine. So I got a, I got a part-time job in in a digital health company, and did that for about a year and then actually got laid off from that. So it was a lot of tech layoffs at that time, which was just about a year ago. And so that’s how I came to work full-time in my business, which honestly was a great thing. Funnily enough, when I found it funny enough, when, when I got laid off, I called a couple of people that day. And, two of them said immediately, congratulations. I said, I’m not sure you’re supposed to say that when somebody gets laid off. But they knew I was building this business and they were like, you’re ready to just like try it out and see how it goes full time. So I have now been full time in my business for about a year. So you know, suffice to say this, the summary of that is that I didn’t I didn’t want to go full-time right away. Because one I didn’t know if it could support me from a revenue perspective, I wanted to be able to invest a lot of my, my revenue back in the business, and to have it grow. And so I did, I straddled two, two roles for gosh, three and a half years or so before I went full time.

Corrie Sanders  23:40

But I think it’s important to recognize that that’s maybe the best path for most pharmacists that are risk averse. I think there’s a lot of validity to you know, jumping off a cliff and investing in yourself and sinking or swimming to see if you survive. But ultimately, that can have a lot of dark ends if you haven’t really pivoted to a model, if you haven’t established proof of concept, if you don’t have the confidence in yourself yet that you’re going to be able to run whatever business it is. So I love that you straddled both. To be honest, it sounds like you really built up something that was manageable and workable and scalable during that time, while you were you know, had one foot in each camp. And then eventually, when you were congratulated for getting laid off from your job. You already had that experience. And you already had that model and you already had that confidence to move forward with your business. So I love that. And I think that that’s a great growth trajectory and maybe a more realistic growth trajectory for some of our more risk averse pharmacists. So Kelley, what resources outside of LinkedIn and we’ll get into LinkedIn in a little bit because I want to give you some time to talk about this platform that you love so much. But outside of LinkedIn, what resources did you use? Was there any tapping into a small business community in your area? Did you have any coaches? Did you really just boot strap this thing independently all by yourself, or were there some outside community entities that helped you better leverage your clinical skill set and set up a business model?

Kelley Carlstrom  25:10

Well, nothing is ever done by yourself. There’s always a huge team, whether they work for you or not, but there’s always people that you lean on. And so my initial resource was the Medi-preneurs Conference, which I went to back in 20, I think it was early 2019. And that’s where I kind of brought like a bunch of ideas I had, and the education business is what kind of, you know, took root, if you will, in some of the conversations that we had, and that that’s what I ran with after that. But I have a software idea, actually, when I first start when I thought that was going to be what I what I went with at the beginning. So that’s a great tool I did, I did use some of the Score, resources. So everybody probably has a Score chapter near them. This is I forget exactly what it stands for. But it’s essentially retired executives that are that help the small business community and it’s a free service in your local community. I also did work with a couple different business coaches. And you know, that’s a whole conversation in and of itself, too. I’ve worked with many different coaches over over the past couple years. But I did work with a couple in the beginning that kind of helped me get some traction helped me understand the basics. So you know, I knew nothing about running a business. So business coaches, at least got me a little bit on the right fit about the right foot about finding like product market fit and who my clients would be and how I would need to talk about it. I also listened to a ton of podcasts. So when I was traveling for consulting, I was I was on a plane, like a lot. Listen to tons and tons of podcasts. And honestly, most of them were way over my head. I remember listening and them talking about acronyms or saying words that I had no idea what they meant. And I just kept listening and kind of absorbing just kind of throughout osmosis. Honestly, like I wasn’t taking notes or anything, I was just listening and seeing what little nuggets I could catch on to what strings I could pull a little bit and learn a little bit more. I didn’t do a lot of reading of business books at that time. But that’s something I use now I listen to a lot of audiobooks or read business books, I have a long list and in my queue of anytime somebody recommends a book, I drop it in my queue whether or not I can get to it right away

Corrie Sanders  27:28

I do the exact same!

Kelley Carlstrom  27:30

You can only read so many at a time. But and honestly something that I think we don’t value enough in pharmacy or not, I guess not that we don’t value enough, but we don’t know enough about it our communities. So how can you find a group of like minded people that are working towards a similar goal, so you all can learn from each other. I’ve been in multiple different communities. And I would encourage pharmacists to look outside of pharmacy communities as well. Because pharmacy, although pharmacy entrepreneurs and pharmacy, pharmacist run businesses alike, depending on your business, if you’re selling, you know, like a service to anybody. But if you’re marketing to healthcare clinicians, I think it’s really easy to get in a silo and forget about some of the general business practices. And I’ve learned so much from just a communities of regular entrepreneurs, you know, often I’m the only pharmacist in those groups. Sometimes there’s other healthcare clinicians, but usually, most of them are not in healthcare. And I’ve learned a lot from them.

Corrie Sanders  28:37

And I think that that’s an important differentiation, too. So you’re still learning a lot, but your end user is a pharmacist. So you can ultimately relate because you guys are seeing practice through the same lens, you’re seeing your service and your products through the same lens. But I think that’s even more important if you’re selling to non-pharmacists, is embedding yourselves in these communities and learning how to speak business to people that aren’t pharmacists or just how to speak business in general, right, like, we, one, don’t sell ourselves appropriately, normally, for what we can do as pharmacists. But really having to see your business outside of that pharmacy lens is something that I think you’re alluding to, and then I certainly found very helpful is having that communication line and having that vernacular to be relatable to someone that doesn’t know anything about your profession for the most part. So Kelley, let’s talk about the LinkedIn community. Because you’ve mentioned that a couple times throughout our conversation already, I want to give you a chance to really explain how LinkedIn has shaped and changed the trajectory of your business and your personal development. And then let’s talk a little bit to about the elite community that you’re a part of in LinkedIn and how you got invited into that.

Kelley Carlstrom  29:45

Sure, yeah, LinkedIn is, I think people underestimate it because they don’t know what it’s about. You know, I remember when I first joined, which was back in 2014, early 2014. And I remember looking at the feed and thinking like, oh, okay, this is sort of like the Facebook feed. But I didn’t see anything particularly interesting. So I’m like, this is kind of boring. Why am I here? And the reason I didn’t see anything interesting is because I didn’t have a network that I was connected with. So LinkedIn didn’t know what information to share with me. So I think when the number one thing I would encourage pharmacists to do is to connect with people that are interesting to them, not just you know, other pharmacists, but sure, other pharmacists. But also people that are, you know, if you’re interested in the technology space, you know, connect with technology leaders connect with if you’re in managed care to connect with people, you know, that are in that space that talk about problems and solutions in that space, because that means your feed is going to be interesting to you. So once I’ve been building up my, my network, they’re on LinkedIn for many years, I started to get much more engaged, because I saw interesting things, I connected with interesting people. And again, that’s where I got recruited into that consulting role, actually, the consulting role in the digital health role. So I’ve always, I’ve always known that that’s where people find me. But the key is, you have to be active. And what I mean by active is, you have to log in pretty regularly. I always chuckle when I send people a message, and I get a response, like three months later. And they say, sorry, I don’t really log in that often. And I’m like, okay, that’s, that’s fine, if you would, if you don’t want to do that, but you’re not going to be able to use LinkedIn, for the way that it’s been intended to be used, which is to have you be seen, and for you to see others and you have to log in, and you have to engage pharmacists are not engagers. We, we are lurkers by default, and by lurkers. I mean, you read the content, but you don’t click the Like button, you don’t message people, you don’t write comments, just lurk on other people’s posts. And I know this to be true, because I go to conferences, and people say, Kelley, I love your content! And I have no idea who they are. Because they never put a comment, they never send me a message, they just lurk on my information, which is fine. I mean, it’s free content I’m putting out there, but you’re I just had a post this week or last week about it where you know, those that those that speak up, stand up, like they’re the ones that if you’re saying if you’re putting yourself out there, and you’re interacting, and you’re commenting that you’re gonna get more kind of recognition, more help, like people are much more likely to respond to a message and answer a question you have when you’re when you’ve already engaged with your content previously. So I think those are the those are the big things like login regularly and really engage, even if it puts you out of your comfort zone, which it will in the beginning. But but push yourself, push yourself, you know, you don’t have to write this huge diatribe. Just write you know, think about one sentence comment on somebody’s post that’s insightful or something from your experience that could help not only the person that posted it, but also somebody else that comes across that post, you know, hey, think about this perspective, or this is what I have seen in practice when I’ve seen this happen that that goes a long way on LinkedIn. So that’s how I’ve used it, I use it today. I do I post a lot of content. So I post Monday through Friday. For our aspiring pharmacy entrepreneurs, I would not recommend starting there. It is a lot. I worked my way up to that. I first started posting infrequently, then I was posting once a week, then twice a week, then three days a week. And then when I went full time last year, I started posting five days a week, but content creation is is a whole is a whole thing. It’s a whole beast. It takes a lot. It takes a lot of time and effort to do it. So don’t don’t start there. But that’s how I that’s how I present on LinkedIn. I also do a lot of outreach. I connect with a lot of pharmacists, both individual pharmacists working in oncology and not, I connect with other healthcare leaders. And I use it to help not only kind of pharmacists find my program, because that’s a marketing effort that I’m putting in. I want pharmacists working in oncology that are new to oncology to see my content and recognize that I can help them learn this complex specialty. But I’m also using it to spread the word about oncology pharmacists. You know, I get a lot of people that comment on my posts to say, Oh, I didn’t realize oncology pharmacists could do that. And that that’s kind of a much more broad profession expansion when when people outside of our profession start recognizing what we can do. So I enjoy having that impact as well and that comes with when you have the ability to reach more people. So that’s how I use LinkedIn kind of on the regular and then you mentioned the group I’m a part of, which is called LinkedIn Top Voices. And this is an invite program, an invite only program that LinkedIn extends to people that are that produce a lot of content that is helping users of LinkedIn. And so I was invited into this program in January of this year, which is super exciting. It’s pretty it’s it is like, I think less than .5% of LinkedIn users are in this program. And what I have learned, from I’ve actually learned a lot about LinkedIn from being in this program just a few months. And what I’ve learned is that they it’s different than other social media platforms, they want their users of the LinkedIn platform to get better. They’re invested in helping professionals get better at their jobs, learn and develop themselves as they want people on the platform that are sharing content, that will help the users do that. So that’s how I got invited because I share a lot of content that helps oncology pharmacists get better at their jobs and develop themselves.

Corrie Sanders  36:07

And it’s great to certainly be rewarded for putting so much time into the platform and effort and energy over the past 10 years. And again, that’s something that was not recognized overnight, you gradually worked your way up from just sporadically posting to a couple times a week to every day, Monday through Friday. So I think that’s something too, that maybe entrepreneurs will lean into LinkedIn very, very hard at the beginning of their journeys, or maybe there’s a maybe they actually don’t lean into it at all. But really realizing what you can do with that platform. If you use it to the maximum extent if you’re cultivating a feed that provides you a voice and provides you information that’s relevant to your business, or relevant to your specialty area. There’s certainly a learning curve with LinkedIn. And there’s certainly a way that you can make the platform much more valuable to you than I think the average pharmacist realizes. So that’s great to hear that you’re being rewarded for the time and the effort that you put into the platform too. So Kelley, let’s talk a little bit now about what oncology is going to look like in the future. You are in the depths of oncology, you are the oncology pharmacist, as you’re known on LinkedIn. So what do you see for oncology in the future? And what do you see the roles for pharmacy specifically in oncology, and the next couple of years? So specifically for this question, I’m thinking of pharmacists that may or may not know if they want to dabble in oncology, or maybe they were voluntold to now be a part of an oncology program. Like where do you think the trajectory of oncology and pharmacy and oncology is going?

Kelley Carlstrom  37:43

I like voluntold. I have a lot of clients that kind of fell into oncology. I actually didn’t like oncology at school. It was not where I expected to be. And I didn’t get into it until my grandmother developed leukemia when I was a P4 student on rotation. So there’s kind of two components of this question. I guess there’s like the, the what types of jobs will there be, and like the tactical pieces, and then the outlook of, you know, where’s oncology pharmacy going? So the outlook is, is that it’s growing? It, I mean, it’s really the best specialty if we think about it. Yes, I’m biased, but it’s totally the best specialty for many reasons. Because we have the most drugs approved, we have the most clinical trials, we have arguably the most expensive drugs. And that means that and the most complex drugs, which all means that the pharmacist has a really important role in helping manage costs and toxicities from all these drugs that are hitting the market. So there’s definitely going to be lots of drugs, lots of opportunities, lots of jobs in oncology. And the types of jobs that there are and will be, are pretty vast. I don’t think people recognize how many different types of opportunities there are. So certainly, there are many positions in patient care. And this is where a lot of the jobs are right now. And that is because we are having similar burnout issues in oncology pharmacy as the rest of the profession is having lots of our experienced staff are leaving clinical practice, which is a bummer. Honestly. I think it’s great for them, because everybody’s entitled to you know, do jobs that,  do work that fulfills them, but it’s also leaving a big gap in patient care. And even if we can fill that gap with bodies, which we do, and they are all like centers are almost always recruiting and hiring for oncology positions. What what the missing piece is that we’re losing people with experience. So when somebody with 15 plus years walks out the door and they hire somebody with a couple of years, even if they’re residency trained, that’s a big gap in knowledge and experience that’s leaving. So I think that’s that’s a challenge we’re all facing and in all the oncology conferences we’re talking about it ad nauseam, because we haven’t figured out how to stem this kind of bleeding, if you will. So there’s lots of opportunity in patient care both in community cancers, in academic centers, inpatient, outpatient, individual private practices, even though there’s not a ton of those around anymore, there still are plenty. There are also patient care roles or specialty pharmacies. So this is particularly good for pharmacists in the retail community setting that want to do something a little bit different. Specialty Pharmacy is an excellent transition. Actually just heard about an opportunity in California where they, they ideally want somebody with a retail background, who also has an interest in oncology. They’re willing to do training in oncology, because they have legal requirements where they need a pick to dispense oral drugs and this particular legal situation, but they’re dispensing oncology drugs. So they want that retail background, but you need some, you know, they’re, they’re dealing with these complex drugs. So there’s a lot of opportunities there, we’ve got opportunities in managed care and the payer space. So think about every time you send a prescription, and it needs a prior authorization, those people on the other end at the insurance company that are dealing with those prior authorizations, they often have very little oncology training, which is not fun for getting approved complex oncology drugs, because we’re talking to these people that don’t know anything about oncology. And they’re the ones that are saying yes or no. So those people need oncology training. And there’s, there’s lots almost every oncology drug I feel like needs a prior auth these days. So a lot, there’s a lot of opportunities in managed care. There are certainly jobs in pharma. As with every specialty. There are jobs in tech, like I said, I worked in on the tech side of oncology for many years. And there’s there’s becoming more and more kind of non-traditional roles, I do get a lot of people that reach out asking about remote oncology jobs. There is not a ton, but there are some, there are some at companies like McKesson, for example, where they do still have patient interaction, but they also they also get to, you know, have the flexibility that comes from from being in a remote in a remote position. So lots of opportunity, lots of different types of roles. Again, this is why oncology is the best specialty. Yeah,

Corrie Sanders  42:27

I mean, I think you nailed the, or you hit the nail on the head with the funds are there. Unfortunately, cancer diagnosis is increasing. So the diagnostic component is there. And it’s really just going to be a never ending game, it seems of filling positions for a growing specialty area. So like, as you said, I think there’s a ton of opportunity across various different continuums in the care spectrum, for for people to jump into oncology, even if they don’t necessarily have the experience. And I also love that you said that you didn’t like oncology in school, I’m sure a lot of people will relate to the fact that oncology is a beast of a module in school. And it’s very, very intimidating. So comforting to know that there’s people like you that are creating content and creating different products that people can buy to bridge that gap between what was taught in school and what’s needed in clinical practice. I think that’s such a beautiful business model. So looking at your business model, specifically, what’s in the future for you? It seems like right now you’re doing a lot of direct to consumer products and advertising. Is there any component of a business to business model moving forward? What do you think the evolution of your business is looking like over the next couple years?

Kelley Carlstrom  43:35

Yes, I would love to, to continue to work with institutions. So I have started working with some institutions that enroll their staff in my program. So that’s definitely a focus as well. And that’s because, you know, they’re hiring people without experience, but they also need them to do the job. And what I have found from all centers, I talked to this, they have a very good onboarding, technical process. You know, when somebody’s newly hired, they show you the EMR, they tell you the workflow, this is how, you know, this is how we do this thing here. Nobody gives clinical training. They kind of expect you to learn that on the job or on your own, which I’ll tell you doesn’t work. There’s there’s not enough hours in the day to do it at work. You get kind of the bare mitts sure you’ll get comfortable with some of the drugs, but you won’t understand breast cancer. You won’t understand, well, why is the doctor blowing through treatment parameters for this drug, but not this drug? Those are things you have to learn from a clinical perspective, from a disease perspective. And so institutions are recognizing that they need to support their staff better. And I’ll tell you the main reason is because turnover is expensive to them. You know, I don’t think we realize as pharmacists how much money it costs an institution when you leave. Not only do they have to pull another FTE to cover that that role that you’re leaving, which leaves a gap open somewhere else that and they have to do that for however long the hiring processes and right now the hiring process is long because everybody’s hiring oncology pharmacists and they can’t find people. But then they have to onboard that person. So it takes months for somebody to get up to speed. So it is a it’s like tens of thousands of dollars for people to, to for to recruit. So it is a huge cost savings to retain employees. That means keeping everybody happy. And and also potentially promoting from within. So I have centers that have pulled retail pharmacists, they have pulled ambulatory care pharmacists, which is a pretty good kind of matchup to oncology because they understand the am care space. And there’s actually a lot of internal medicine issues in primary care as well. And then, you know, they have to learn the oncology piece. So I think there’s a lot of financial benefit for institutions to train up their staff. So I look forward to working with with more of those. I’m always going to work with individual pharmacists, because that is honestly what fills my cup. Like there’s nothing, there’s no greater feeling than when a pharmacist reaches out to me and says, I passed the BCAP exam. Or I finally had a conversation with my doctor and didn’t feel like an idiot. Or I made a recommendation about this chemotherapy dosing and the doctor accepted it. Like, ah, those feelings just made me feel so good, because that’s what it’s all about at the end of the day. It’s not only that pharmacist’s gets that, that when and feels like they’re doing good work. But that patient is getting better care because their pharmacist feels more confident and is better educated, and I can’t ask for anything better than that.

Corrie Sanders  46:43

I hope that you can see the ripple effect that you’re creating by training these pharmacists. I mean, it’s I love that the pharmacist gratification fills your cup. But I really hope that you can see not only are you changing so many pharmacist’s lives with the business that you’ve created, but ultimately, the end user and the patient, you’re just improving care for so many more people than you could ever do alone. I love it. I love your business model. I think that it honestly could be applicable to some other specialty areas. For pharmacists that may not be an oncology, there’s certainly a way to leverage monetizing your clinical expertise in different ways and providing that to different pharmacists or other health care providers. I just think what you’ve done and what you’ve built is just something to be very proud of. So Kelley, I will end today with any advice that you would give to any budding pharmacy entrepreneurs, any lessons that you’ve learned along the way or anything that sticks out in your head that you’d like to convey to the listeners.

Kelley Carlstrom  47:39

Yeah, something that I consistently remind myself to do, which is take action. It really makes a bigger difference than then you think it will make. And I remember when I was in clinical practice, I had mentioned that I was risk averse. And for me how that played out was that I would research things to the Nth degree, you know. Whether it was a purchase I was making, whether it was a job decision, it took me months to take a consulting role, because I just kept making pro/con lists. And when I got into entrepreneurship, I realized like that that doesn’t fly, when you’re running a business, it just the time that you need to make decisions is very quick. And if you’re always second guessing yourself, it’s not you’re you’re not going to be successful. So what I would encourage people to do is have that experimenters mindset, which is I’m going to make a decision, I’m going to take some action on whatever this thing is I’m going to pull the trigger on trying out this piece of content or talking to this particular client or trying this new software tool, and then reevaluate it, like nothing is set in stone. So you can think about it a month later, six months later, and decide did that experiment work? Did that decision I made lead to anything to those clients, I was potential clients I was talking to actually buy for me? If a lot of them did great. That was a positive experiment. If they didn’t, no. That means, okay, I need to pivot and change course, it doesn’t mean it was a bad decision. There are no bad decisions in entrepreneurship. It’s just you have to get off of the table and start walking and start doing things. And that’s how you learn. I can’t tell you how many how many times I’ve done something where I’m like, Well, that was unexpected. And if it if it just took me, you know, if it took me months to make that decision, it would have taken me months to figure out that thing didn’t work or that thing didn’t work, you know, you got to make faster decisions in this world.

Corrie Sanders  49:33

And I really enjoy the experimenters mindset. I think that’s a great summary and a great way to put it and also just how you’re alluding to how we make decisions in clinical practice and how we might research decisions and how we might look into those things to the Nth degree. And maybe that shouldn’t necessarily carry over to your business mindset and how you’re running your business and entrepreneurship. Those are two very different, maybe the same skill set, but two very different applications with how you’re going to think about approaching those decision making processes and the time that you put into them. So I love that. I think that was wonderfully said. Well, Kelley, for the listeners that want to find you, they can obviously find you on LinkedIn. But is there any other way that people can find you, your website and I would love for you to also spell out your name to make sure that people get the spelling correctly. We’ll link to it in the show notes. But where else can our viewers and our listeners find you?

Kelley Carlstrom  50:26

Yeah, definitely LinkedIn. Send me a message there, please. And my website is KelleyCPharmD. So that’s Kelly, K-e-l-l-e-y C PharmD. C for my last name. Yes, my mom spelled my name that way. And I always have to spell it.

Corrie Sanders  50:44

Well, Kelley, thank you for your time. This was a wonderful conversation. I think there were a lot of great nuggets built into this conversation, a lot of great learning points that our listeners can take. So thank you again for your time. This was wonderful and we look forward to keeping pace with you and watching you as your business continues to develop.

Kelley Carlstrom  51:01

Thanks so much, I appreciate it.

[DISCLAIMER]

Tim Ulbrich  51:03

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 350: Monetizing Your Clinical Expertise with Dr. Gauthier (YFP Classic)


Tim Gauthier, PharmD, creator of two learning platforms shares advice for pharmacists seeking to monetize their clinical expertise. Episode sponsored by APhA.

Episode Summary

This week on the YFP Podcast, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, welcomes antimicrobial stewardship pharmacist and fellow pharmacy entrepreneur, Tim Gauthier. Tim is the creator of IDStewarship.com and LearnAntibiotics.com. During the show, Tim and Tim discuss the genesis for creating these two learning platforms, how Tim has monetized his clinical experience to create passive streams of income, and how he manages to stay consistent in entrepreneurship while balancing a full-time pharmacy career and fulfilling personal life.

Listeners will hear about Tim’s pathway to pharmacy, what drew him into the profession, his passion for infectious disease pharmacy, and what he was hoping to accomplish with his learning platforms, IDStwardship.com and LearnAntibiotics.com. Tim walks us through the content and resources available on his websites and how he has monetized them while providing a wealth of free content to his community.

Making things passive and generating passive revenue streams is crucial to Tim, and he shares the tools and systems he has put in place to make that goal possible while balancing other obligations. Tim also discusses the incredible value of community and how he has built an active, engaged pharmacists community that contributes to the platforms in multiple ways. Tim closes with advice for pharmacists looking to follow a similar path in monetizing their clinical expertise.

About Today’s Guest

Timothy P. Gauthier, Pharm.D., BCPS, BCIDP is a pharmacist trained in infectious diseases and antimicrobial stewardship. He is a clinician, researcher, educator, and author. He is an advocate for antimicrobial stewardship and pharmacy education.

Dr. Gauthier graduated from Northeastern University’s School of Pharmacy (Boston, MA) in 2008. He then completed a Post-Graduate Year-1 Pharmacy Practice Residency and a Post-Graduate Year-2 Infectious Diseases Pharmacy Residency at Jackson Memorial Hospital (Miami, FL). Since finishing terminal training he has worked in academia (Nova Southeastern University, 2010-2015), clinical practice (Miami Veterans Affairs Healthcare System, 2015-2019), and a leadership role (Baptist Health South Florida, 2019-current), all focusing on advancing the fields of infectious diseases pharmacy and antimicrobial stewardship.

He holds certifications from the Board of Pharmacy Specialties for Pharmacotherapy and Infectious diseases. He has completed the Making A Difference in Infectious Diseases Pharmacotherapy Antimicrobial Stewardship Training Program.

He is the creator and editor-in-chief of www.IDstewardship.com, www.LearnAntibiotics.com, and the many @IDstewardship social media profiles. He co-hosts the #ASPchat each month on Twitter. He reaches thousands of people each day on the internet and on social media, where he aims share reliable and relevant information from the world of pharmacy and healthcare in general. IDstewardship.com alone has registered over 5,00,000 page views as of November 2022.

Key Points from the Episode

  • The genesis for creating two learning platforms (IDStewardship.com and LearnAntibiotics.com)
  • How Dr. Gauthier has monetized his clinical expertise to create passive revenue streams
  • How Dr. Gauthier manages and leverages his time to be able to consistently put out good content while working full-time and fulfilling his personal commitments and goals

Episode Highlights

“So it’s been a really rewarding experience, and collaborating with others from around the world has been something an area of success, I think, to be part of kind of the community that I’ve built. But I have a lot of flexibility, and that’s one thing that a lot of organizations don’t have.” – Tim Gauthier

“But that’s what drives me because I just really am totally obsessed with infectious diseases and microbial stewardship, and I think people need help learning. I needed a lot of help learning. I see where there’s benefit. I see where there’s value. There’s some monetary benefit that comes with it. It’s not anything that’s extreme by any means. But by having that win-win, it’s really been something that I think has been worth pursuing.” – Tim Gauthier

“I think that’s kind of the most important thing I’ve learned when it comes to telling people you have something to share with them, showing them that it’s meaningful, getting them excited about it, showing them that you’re a reliable person that has the know-how to get them the resource that they need to succeed. That is really critical. So that’s kind of some of the messaging there.” – Tim Gauthier

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRO]

[00:00:00] T. ULBRICH: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. 

This week, I had a chance to welcome antimicrobial stewardship pharmacist and fellow pharmacy entrepreneur, Tim Gauthier. Tim is the creator of IDStewardship.com and LearnAntibiotics.com. During the show, Tim and I talk about the genesis for creating these two learning platforms, how Tim has monetized his clinical expertise, and how he manages and leverages his time to be able to consistently put out good content while working full-time and fulfilling his personal commitments and goals.

Before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 250 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. 

All right, let’s jump into my interview with pharmacist and entrepreneur, Tim Gauthier. 

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:21] T. ULBRICH: Tim, welcome to the show.

[00:01:23] T. GAUTHIER: Hey, thanks for having me. I’m really excited to be here. How are you, Tim?

[00:01:26] T. ULBRICH: I’m well. I’m excited to dig into the work that you’re doing and for you to share with the YFP community how you’ve been monetizing your clinical expertise. But before we jump into that, I’d love to learn about your journey into pharmacy school, into the profession, where you went to school, when you graduated, and what drew you into the profession of pharmacy.

[00:01:44] T. GAUTHIER: Oh, yeah, of course. So I went to Northeastern University in Boston, Massachusetts and graduated in 2008, which feels like yesterday, but it’s been four years now. I got into pharmacy because I really was interested in microbiology. It turns out it’s easier to transfer into microbiology from pharmacy than pharmacy to microbiology. So I started in pharmacy. I ended up sticking with it. I never thought I’d go into infectious diseases pharmacy, just because it didn’t really cross my mind, and I didn’t know much about that early in my years. 

Then later on, after PGY1, I had the opportunity to do a PGY2 in ID. Lo and behold, today, I’m an infectious diseases-obsessed pharmacist, who’s out there to defend antibiotics and promote clinical pharmacy. So here we are today.

[00:02:27] T. ULBRICH: So the Northeast, Tim, to Florida. This is the time of year in the Northeast. I grew up in the Buffalo area, where it’s beautiful. I always say six months out of the year, I’d live anywhere else. But the Midwest I’m at now or the Northeast. But the other six months, included this time of year, is absolutely gorgeous. So do you miss the seasons at all?

[00:02:49] T. GAUTHIER: I do miss the seasons, but the winter in Miami, Florida, where I live now, is just absolutely wonderful. I love the culture, as well as all the different types of food here. We do visit. Periodically, I go to Boston, Rhode Island, Connecticut and stuff. So it’s nice to be able to have a little bit of the best of both worlds.

[00:03:06] T. ULBRICH: Yeah, yeah. So we connected several years back, and I’ve been following your work for some time. I wanted to bring you out in the show, as I think what you’ve built is a really cool example of how pharmacists can monetize their clinical expertise. Certainly, as we’ll talk about, it’s not just about the money, but it’s being able to leverage the skills, the passion, the interest that you have to fill a gap in the market and to help people looking to learn more about a topic. 

Here, we’re going to be talking about infectious disease, of course, and we have featured a variety of individuals on the podcasts over the past year or so. So I’m excited to share your journey as well. So let’s start with IDStewardship.com. When and why did you start it? Who was it for? What were you hoping to accomplish? 

[00:03:49] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. So IDStewardship.com has been alive since about 2016, and I just had a friend who knew how to build websites, and I wanted to build something on my own, and he offered to help and put it together. Then I kind of took off from there, and I do pretty much everything on my own now. When I have a technical problem, he comes in? But why did I do it? There’s a couple of reasons. 

One is I wanted to own my own space on the Internet, where I could have a voice, where I could publish things and not be restricted by a company or a manager or a group of people. Also, I just really enjoy your writing. So it gave me an opportunity to use a different part of my brain on the weekends and in the evening hours to share information that could be open access and someone else could benefit from. There’s a huge need in pharmacy. It has been for us to share our experiences and practical advice and insights so that others can learn and grow from it. 

Also, just sharing information about antibiotics to make it easier for people to understand what drugs can I use for MRSA or Pseudomonas. But then some deeper things like what are five things to know about, I don’t know, Stenotrophomonas or Acinetobacter. So really, it’s just a myriad of content these days. If you’re a pharmacy professional, if you’re a healthcare professional, there’s some stuff on there that you’ll be interested in. If you’re just looking for fun stuff, there’s a drug name emoji that people really, really seem to enjoy. 

[00:05:03] T. ULBRICH: So I’m trying to understand, Tim, the need you’re filling with this resource. So obviously, we all went through ID curriculums in our PharmD program. There are there are PGY2 residencies that focus on this fellowships who focus on this. Certainly, there are associations or interest groups within associations that focus on this. So what is different here that you’re trying to carve out to fill a need that you felt like either wasn’t being met for you or for other clinicians through those other learning pathways?

[00:05:32] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. I didn’t do very well in ID in pharmacy school, ironically, and I didn’t feel comfortable with it until I was like halfway through my PGY2. Practical resources that are available that are insightful and that consider the things that are beyond just the obvious, those were lacking. That really motivated me to try to put out things that were interesting. But also, like when you go to practice, these are five things you need to know about [inaudible 00:05:55] come across [inaudible 00:05:57]. I think that the community has received it really well, but I use social media to amplify that voice in different social media platforms. 

So it’s been a really rewarding experience, and collaborating with others from around the world has been something an area of success, I think, to be part of kind of the community that I’ve built. But I have a lot of flexibility, and that’s one thing that a lot of organizations don’t have.

[00:06:21] T. ULBRICH: Yes, yeah. The digestible nature of the content strikes me. You’ve alluded to it a couple of times with examples you’ve given thus far in the show. It reminds me of one of the pharmacist we’ve had on this show, Kelley Carlstrom, on episode 217. Her business called KelleyCPharmD. She does an awesome job of this in the pharmacy space, specifically in oncology practice, making it accessible, no matter where you are. She trained at the Cleveland Clinic, an internationally recognized institution. Not everyone can go do your residency there, right? Has the time to commit, potentially has to travel to do that. 

Her vision really is what about all the other hospitals? What about all the rural healthcare settings that are trying to treat patients and get their clinical staff up to speed? Or perhaps different practice models that don’t have a lineup of board certified residency trained pharmacists with multiple credentials? How can we expand the accessibility of this content? That’s one of things I love about what you’re doing here, and it really does strike me as being much more accessible than what is out there and some more traditional training programs or those that are offered by other groups. 

It’s also written and presented in a way that is easy to understand. It’s relevant. It’s things that, Tim, you’re experiencing daily as a clinician yourself or encounters when you’re precepting residents or students. So you know the pain points. You know the questions, the problems, the points of confusion because you’re living them each day. I love the platform of what you built to address that. 

So take us, Tim, through IDStewardship.com, in terms of the content you have, the resources you offer, and how you’ve been able to monetize it, right? You give out a lot of great content for free. But you also been able to monetize the site and enable to reap some of the fruit for all the work that you’re putting in, and you’ve put in over the last seven years. So talk to us about what you offer and provide on the site and how you’ve been able to monetize that.

[00:08:14] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. I offered way too much stuff for free, probably. But exactly like an altruistic passion project, it has to make some kind of money for my wife to allow me to continue it. So definitely, it’s a mixed bag. But the art of the IDStewardship.com offers articles, which are blog articles talking about the student experience, the pharmacist experience, clinical insights into common questions that we ask and that we see. Those are always written by content experts who have practical experience in the area, and I vet all that content to make sure it’s reliable, credible, and it goes beyond like the obvious content that you might find in a general article. 

Also, there’s a study guide section, which is free and open access that has a picture of the drug, some of my key points, which I think you might find on your pharmacy school exams or maybe the BCPS or BCIDP exam and then links to some of the articles or some of the guidelines that are really relevant to that drug. I have a list of resources, which is pretty cool. If you’re looking for anything about antibiotics, that is a very robust list of resources. So like hepatitis C screening for Child-Pugh score. There’s a calculator in there. Just pick one random example. Or even if you’re looking for regulatory content from the Joint Commission, it’s linked there. 

I also have the contributor section, where you can see who’s participated, and there’s really a lot of contributors to my website. So I do want to emphasize that that’s a really cool part of what I’ve been able to do, and it’s not just Tim doing it. It’s the community. But I kind of lead it because I’m kind of like the editor in chief of the content founder. The other part, though, which I really want to talk about for a second is LearnAntibiotics.com. So I’ve taken the opportunity to show people that, yes, these are articles that are available. But I’ve been able to produce content that you can use for learning. As a background in academia, I know that you have to go and be able to identify and define before you can analyze and assess and predict. 

So I’ve built content specifically to help people through that learning process. If you’re looking to identify and define, I have cheat sheets on different disease states, on different drug classes. Those can help people to say, okay, like, “Pseudomonas drugs, these are my drugs.” But then I also make more fun content that has like a word search or a Jeopardy game. Those can be applied to the specific area. Then the practice tests I’ve built so that if you are able to pass that practice test, you can practice pretty competently as a pharmacist and know what questions to ask for infectious diseases and even some of them I’ll give you. Here’s the question, here’s the answer, and here’s the rationale for why each answer is right, and each answer is wrong. So it’s pretty robust. 

[00:10:59] T. ULBRICH: I love that and I want to come back in a little bit to talk more about the LearnAntibiotics.com, in terms of what you’re trying to accomplish there. I think that’s going to give some folks some interesting ideas about as you’re considering monetizing your clinical expertise, there’s a lot of different ways to do that. I love what you’ve built there with that membership type of model. 

Two words, Tim, that really stand out about what you’ve built and the vision that you have going forward are passion and community. You mentioned community just a moment ago, and I love that you’ve brought together a group of people that are, obviously, passionate about learning more about antimicrobial stewardship, learning more about infectious disease, bringing in contributors to the site, taking them from just a passive learner, to engaging them in the conversation, contributing to the community, and then passion. Your passion for this topic and furthering individuals’ knowledge and, obviously, the more our healthcare professionals know about this topic, the better they’re able to serve their patients. 

I think this is so important for folks to hear, when you’re working on a side hustle or a business, especially when you’re working a full-time job, you have lots of other commitments, doing something that you’re passionate about, you mentioned that I probably got too much free content out there, right? It’s a passion project for you. Yes, you’re monetizing it. But that is going to really drive the energy and the enthusiasm to continue to build, especially in the early years, as someone who’s trying to get something off the ground. 

Tim, as people go to IDStewardship.com and they see what you’ve built over several years, how much of this is what you have built and maintained? And how much of this is what you have other people that are helping you in building and maintaining the site?

[00:12:36] T. GAUTHIER: That’s a great question, and it’s definitely changed over time. When I started to look at developing a website, I talked to one of my friends who’s in website development, and he said, “Tim, we can do a website. But this is not a six-month thing, and this is not a one-year thing. This is like a 10-year journey, and you have to think of it very long-term.” So taking small bites has been one of the keys to success. As I’ve understood the workflows on developing different items, it’s gotten to be more efficient over time. I do produce actually the majority of the content on my own when it comes to the background work. 

But the one thing that people send to the community of pharmacists, they’re willing to be a part of this journey. Them sending me articles and communicating with me and offering their assistance and trying to get their message out and share their passion, that really has enabled me to produce more content and put more information out there. But it is a tremendous amount of work. I do spend a lot of time between the hours of 8:00 PM and 11:00 PM working on this type of stuff. I think if you don’t have the passion for it, it’s probably going to be hard to do it long term. 

But that’s what drives me because I just really am totally obsessed with infectious diseases and microbial stewardship, and I think people need help learning. I needed a lot of help learning. I see where there’s benefit. I see where there’s value. There’s some monetary benefit that comes with it. It’s not anything that’s extreme by any means. But by having that win-win, it’s really been something that I think has been worth pursuing. 

One of the secrets that they say is not to do things alone, right? If you’re going to build a program like this, or you’re going to build a side business. I have mixed feelings about that. On one hand, I love the freedom that I have. I have total creative freedom to do whatever I want, whenever I want, with no one arguing with me. But at the same time, being in an echo chamber with yourself is not always a positive thing, and having a partner can push you in good directions. So I think partnerships are important, and you can choose to pursue things as a partnership or as an individual. 

Something else I want to note that as I built out what I have online with IDStewardship is I’ve really purposely tried to make it about the brand and not about me. That kind of protects me in a way because the voice is the voice of the brand and not the voice of the individual. Also, people can engage within behind that brand and be a part of the community again, rather than it being part of what Tim is doing. So that was actually very strategic in the development. 

[00:15:02] T. ULBRICH: Yeah, Tim. I think that’s a strategic move for the reason you mentioned also. I think about the passion and the mission of what you’re trying to do. Like there may be a day where maybe this isn’t only Tim who’s doing this. Or for whatever reason, you have others that are involved in the mission of advancing the education around IDStewardship and being able to have this information accessible, where folks can learn and perhaps be excited about learning it I think transcends just one person, right? So I think the contributors is another important aspect here of what you’ve highlighted.

[00:15:34] T. GAUTHIER: Like making things passive is also really important to me. I’ve learned that a lot during COVID because COVID has been absolutely horrible for all infectious diseases pharmacists and time management and when life was balanced. I mean, everybody in general. But I mean, trying to keep up with the literature and be engaged, on top of having this site and stuff going on, I need things to be able to put on pause, right? If I have no commitments that I’ve made, that’s not going to serve me well in the long term. So I really try to do things that are passive whenever possible and then only commit to like a couple of things at a time.

[00:16:05] T. ULBRICH: Yeah. One other thing I was thinking about, Tim, as I was looking at your site, that would be I think good advice for folks that are thinking about building their own, especially if they don’t have a huge budget upfront to be able to hire a web developer. If you’re building a content-based site, it could be blog articles that you’re adding, podcasts that you’re adding, e-resources that you’re adding checklists, guides, e-books, whatever, like you want to make sure you’re building it in a way that you understand and can add to it on a regular basis. 

So even if you’re working with a developer or a contractor to help you, making sure you have enough understanding of the back end so that you’re not spending a whole lot of money long-term or frustrated that each time you’re trying to add a piece of content to the site, whether that’s a blog, podcast, an opt-in guide, whatever be the case, that you want to be able to have something that’s nimble, and you can add to over time. 

[00:16:51] T. GAUTHIER: I’ve seen some people who built 20,000, 25,000-dollar websites, and they tend to be the people that follow a lot of podcasters in the space of like social media and engagement and business development. So I think if you’re committed to it, it can be worth the money. But you got to proceed with caution.

[00:17:10] T. ULBRICH: When I go to the site, Tim, and you mentioned already that LearnAantibiotics.com, www.learnantibiotics.com, we’ll link to that in the show notes, which takes you over to the IDStewardship site, that really is the membership portion of the site, where folks can be engaging with the community on an ongoing basis. Obviously, the goal there is that becomes some stability of recurring revenue that supports a lot of the time and effort and the free content that you’re putting out there. 

Talk to us about – I think in content marketing, and I hesitate to use that word because I feel like you’re leading with such good passion and education that sometimes that word can sound dirty. But ultimately, the value that you’re providing and really good free rich education is naturally going to make people aware of what you’re doing on the membership side, which has a recurring revenue potential. 

So what has your strategy or approach been to connect the free content with the membership model? Is it just that, hey, more eyeballs on the site and value that they’ll kind of find their way over there? Is it opt-ins that then point people to that resource? Tell us more about the strategy that you’ve employed to connect the free education people are viewing and receiving with some of the paid options you have. 

[00:18:24] T. GAUTHIER: For sure. As you’re saying, this, I’m thinking about how I need to be more strategic. Sometimes, just go with the flow. That feels good. That feels good. Sometimes, I think of things, and I’m like, “Oh, I wish I had done that.” Even right now, there’s a list of things that if I had the time in my life to do, I would totally do. 

But in general, what I try to do is capture a large audience and engage a large audience and do that through all these different ways that I think of, whether it’s something that’s like a clickable link on an Instagram story, or it’s a new blog post that I put out, or it’s putting a meme out there or just sharing like, “Hey, here’s like a part of my cheat sheet. If you’d like to see more of it like, shoot me your email address. I’ll shoot you a copy of this cheat sheet in full.” Then I have a way to communicate with those individuals. So if you’re just interested in the LearnAntibotics site or you’re interested in like all of IDStewardship, and you want to get our monthly newsletter, I’m able to reach you that way.

Another thing that’s important about having a mail listing is that if like tomorrow, Instagram decides to just delete my account, which they can’t, I have nothing. I’m left with nothing. Whereas since I have a Mailchimp account, they’re able to house my ability to communicate with my people. So in general, I provide something for free. I get the ability to contact these people. If you want to unsubscribe, I have no problem with that. Actually, when people unsubscribe, I don’t have to pay for you to be on my listserv anymore. I actually don’t mind at all. So if you don’t look at the newsletters we send out, feel free to unsubscribe. But if you want to subscribe, then we’d love to communicate with you. 

I think that’s kind of the most important thing I’ve learned when it comes to telling people you have something to share with them, showing them that it’s meaningful, getting them excited about it, showing them that you’re a reliable person that has the know-how to get them the resource that they need to succeed. That is really critical. So that’s kind of some of the messaging there. 

[00:20:18] T. ULBRICH: Yeah. I think one of the other things you’ve done really well, Tim, that I admire is you’re consistent in your content. We know and we’ll talk in a moment about how you balance time with other personal responsibilities. None of us are perfect and consistent in delivering the same amount of material, but you’ve been consistent over the years in terms of there’s not months and months of like quiet phases, and then you dump a bunch of content. 

I think that’s so important for any – If we think about communities we like to be a part of or content we like to follow, it’s a consistent offering that we’re engaging with that content. So as you’re getting started, as someone’s getting started, I think thinking about what is – Once you decide on the medium, is it a blog, is it a podcast, whatever you’re looking at, is it something like a vlog, what is going to be your rhythm roughly that you’re going to be delivering content and making sure you’re showing up on a consistent basis with your audience and those that are finding value from what you’re doing?

[00:21:10] T. GAUTHIER: Along those lines, I think listening to your community is important. I had someone email me recently and say, “Hey, Tim. I wish you had a malaria cheat sheet because I’m studying for the BCIDP exam or the BCPS exam,” I forget which. I made one that weekend, and I really enjoyed it. I thought it was super interesting. I learned a bunch about malaria. So not only does it like help people advance their professional goals. It helps me remember things. I use my websites all the time to remember some of these nuances that are details that are just – You can’t remember everything.

[00:21:40] T. ULBRICH: That’s where I think the community piece comes in well too. You’ve got a good social media following. I’m sure people reach out to your questions all the time. You have students on rotation. You start to put some of those repeated questions into content buckets, right? I know you have a list of running content ideas. I’m sure you do. But once you hear a question more than one, two, or three times, it’s like, all right, maybe there’s something here in terms of a piece of content that we should be putting out. 

Let’s talk about time and balancing doing this. You’ve certainly made a strong case that there’s a lot of passion behind it. But nonetheless, like you’ve got a family. You’re working a full-time job. You’re precepting residents, students. You have expectations at home and at work. Like what strategies have you employed time blocking, or how have you been able to really leverage time so that you can continue to put out content on a consistent basis while working full-time?

[00:22:31] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. Well, in the early days, and I was working at the Veterans Affairs Hospital in Miami, and they’re very strict in terms of their hours. So when you’re off duty, you’re off time. So everything that I did in the beginning was during off hours. That’s still the same today, but it taught me that you should only work on these things when you’re not on company resources, etc. 

But then I didn’t have small children in the early days, which meant I have had a lot more time, especially in the evening areas of the day. More recently, I have a three-year-old and a seven-year-old, and the evening hours are much more strenuous. So now, since we’ve developed more of an awareness in the community about IDStewardship, I reach out to people. When I see an article posted on like Twitter about something new that I’m interested in, I’ll reach out to the person who authored the article and say, “Hey, I’d love to have you write five things to know about whatever the topic is.” 

People almost always say yes because they want to share their passion. But it’s not just about me getting content. They now have a way to share that information. Sometimes, it’s the resident or the student or the second or third author that I work with. So they get an opportunity to share their voice. Coming up with strategies where I don’t have to do all the work has been one thing. Then also, like when you look at the development of like research and scholarly work in an academic position, you kind of look at it like a conveyor belt, and you want projects in all areas of your conveyor belt. 

Some things are in – You’re designing. What do you think it might look like, and you have your concepts, your list of projects? Then other things are going into publication, going out on the newsletter. So you’re constantly just like feeding that conveyor belt and keeping it going in different areas, and that’s how you stay productive over a long period of time. It’s not about taking one thing and rushing it forward but just maintaining that conveyor belt. There might be different conveyor belts that go faster or slower, and some things might take two years to do. 

But I always move forward with projects based upon what I think is like fun and interesting, and I don’t put pressure on people. I’m not out there saying, “Hey, if you don’t get back to me in two weeks, you’re not going to be allowed to do this.” If you don’t feel like doing this later because you have a problem, whatever. Don’t do it. If you want to circle back in two years, circle back into years, like no pressure.

[00:24:39] T. ULBRICH: Take us a little bit behind the scenes. I think one of the barriers that folks run into is they’re just trying to get started, and they go to someone’s site. They don’t necessarily have a picture of what are some of the tools and the systems and the processes that you have in place. You’ve mentioned a couple things already. Obviously, you’ve got the website infrastructure. You mentioned the email list. So like for us, we use WordPress for our website build. We use Bluehost for our domain hosting. We use ActiveCampaign for our email marketing. Then we have several other tools we use for project management and other things. 

So what are some of the tools that you use or that you have found to be helpful as you’ve been working on IDStewardship?

[00:25:18] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah, for sure. I use WordPress, and then I use WPX Hosting. Then for like the memberships, it’s PMPro or Paid Memberships Pro. I’ve been pretty happy with those overall. The WordPress in particular, it’s just overall really easy to use. You add a plug in. It updates. It’s no big deal. WPX is really – Once a year, I pay a fee. Once in a while, I’ll have a bandwidth issue. So I’ve learned that I need to downsize the images that I use when I post, which I think a lot of people kind of learn that lesson. 

I mean, that’s really the gist of it. Outside that, I use Mailchimp for my emails. I don’t really love how much they charge. I think they’re charging me like 250 a month for like 25,000 subscribers. So it’s great to have that many subscribers, but it doesn’t feel good paying $2,500 a year for that. But it also motivates me to put out content to use that tool that I’m paying for. So those are some of the key things that I’m using now. 

Otherwise, I just maintained like Excel sheets for a while. In the beginning, when I didn’t have as much content, I would do a lineup, and I would remind myself of when I posted to Facebook about a specific blog post, and I would just keep cycling through them. So I was always posting like one thing a day on Facebook. But it’s gotten to the point that I can’t do that anymore. I’d need to hire like a social media manager or something like that. I think as you grow, you need to start considering how can you work with who can you bring in. 

Another thing is as I’ve kind of met people in life through my way or through other venues, I work with them. So I just met a guy over the weekend that he prints things for a living, right? So there’s so much opportunity for us to collaborate with printing things. My audience is interested in topics of pharmacy and infectious diseases. So being entrepreneurial is one of the definitely keys to success here and also not being stuck in your ways, being able to evaluate things, and then accept feedback. If it’s not going well and someone tells you it’s not going well, take that advice and see how you can make it better and ask them, “Hey, how can I make this better?”

[00:27:13] T. ULBRICH: Yes, great advice, Tim. I think for people that are listening, and they hear 25,000 people on an email list and again not getting paralyzed from Jump Street. I think I love what you shared of it was a spreadsheet to begin with, right? I’ve shared before on this podcast that the first 100 subscribers on our email list were a combination of text messages and Facebook messages and LinkedIn posts that I had, and that eventually got added to an email software. Eventually, we added automations. Eventually, we added opt-in funnels and all those things, project management, social media management tools, things like that. But just getting started, you can do a lot of that manually. Get some of the things off the ground. Then as you get momentum, you can build out the systems and the processes that will help with efficiencies. 

Tim, if someone is listening and they are on the very front end of this, so let’s just pick another specialty that’s out there, and they’re thinking, “I’d love to build something in this domain, similar to what I see Tim doing with IDStewardship, Kelley doing with oncology. I also think about what Jimmy Pruitt’s doing with acute care out there in pharmacy,” like what advice would you have with them at the very beginning of their journey? If you think back to where you were when you started in 2015, like now looking back seven years later, like what piece of advice would you have to share with them as they get started on this journey?

[00:28:33] T. GAUTHIER: Well, I mean, first of all, not just because I – If I say something, it doesn’t mean it’s necessarily true. So it’s just my opinion on some of this. So feel free to disagree. But one thing I feel is that, especially when it comes to social media, people go on Twitter, on TikTok, on Facebook because they’re looking for things for themselves. So if you’re not putting out things that are going to be interesting to your audience, then your audience is not going to grow like they should. 

So everything that you do, no matter what you’re doing, should be aligned with why your audience is going to that area, and that’s going to help to get them to like it, get them to share it, which is very, very difficult in the pharmacy profession. We’re like 90% passive users. We love to learn. 

[00:29:11] T. ULBRICH: That’s right. 

[00:29:13] T. GAUTHIER: I’ll post something on Facebook, man, and it’s like five likes. But then I’ll see that I got 250 link clicks. So it’s very interesting. From an outside, you might look at my Facebook page or something and say, “Oh, I got a couple of likes or clicks,” and you can’t see the clicks, but you’ll only see a couple of likes, and they got lots of clicks. So it’s kind of one thing that’s important, I think, as you’re starting off. 

Another thing about starting off would probably be considered like long-term how you’re going to grow, and you’re talking about the design of your product. I think that core message and that core what am I doing here is really important. Over time, is that going to change? Because if it’s focused on something that’s relevant now like COVID, for example, or moneypox, maybe that’s not relevant in two years from now.

[00:29:59] T. ULBRICH: It’s pretty cool. Yep, absolutely. That’s great stuff, Tim. I’m excited for our listeners, if they’re not already aware to follow the journey, and I hope they’ll opt in your newsletter. Where is the best place that folks can go to follow you and the journey and the work that you’re doing?

[00:30:16] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. I mean, definitely IDStewardship.com, and you can sign up for our newsletter there or just follow along on Instagram or our Facebook or goods areas. Twitter, you can find me there as well. It’s a little bit more focused on infectious diseases and as a whole and staying up with the literature on Twitter. So either of those but the newsletters are really a good place to start.

[00:30:37] T. ULBRICH: Awesome. Thanks, Tim. Appreciate you taking time to come on the show.

[00:30:39] T. GAUTHIER: Oh, it was my pleasure. We’ve worked together for so long over the years. It’s really a wonderful opportunity for me, and I appreciate your time.

[00:30:46] T. ULBRICH: Thank you. 

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[00:30:47] T. ULBRICH: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you, again, for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week. 

[END]

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YFP 344: Beyond the ER: The Entrepreneurial Journey of Dr. Jimmy Pruitt


Jimmy Pruitt, PharmD, Founder & CEO of Pharmacy & Acute Care University, shares insights on his entrepreneurial journey and the EMPower Rx Conference.

Episode Summary

In this week’s episode, join us as we sit down with Dr. Jimmy Pruitt, a Clinical Pharmacy Specialist in Emergency Medicine at Atrium Health. Dr. Pruitt wears multiple hats as the Founder & CEO of Pharmacy & Acute Care University and the brains behind the EMPowerRx Conference. Our conversation delves into his fascinating entrepreneurial journey, exploring the roots of why and how he embarked on this path.

Throughout the episode, we gain valuable perspectives on the intricacies of balancing professional commitments and entrepreneurial endeavors. Dr. Pruitt shares his experiences, lessons learned, and the strategies he employed to overcome obstacles on his journey. Dr. Pruitt also shares his vision for the EMRower Rx Conference – a  unique conference and continuing education experience for professionals in emergency medicine pharmacotherapy. 

Tune in to this insightful conversation with Dr. Jimmy Pruitt to glean wisdom from his unique blend of clinical expertise and entrepreneurial spirit. Whether you’re navigating the realms of healthcare, entrepreneurship, or both, this episode offers valuable insights and inspiration for the road ahead.

About Today’s Guests

Dr. Jimmy Pruitt is originally from Orlando, FL, and is a combination of nerd and gym junky having a background as a division 1 cornerback then turned Doctor of Pharmacy from Presbyterian College School of Pharmacy in 2017. He completed a PGY-1 Pharmacy Residency at Florida Hospital Orlando, and then went on to Grady Health System in Atlanta GA for his PGY2 Emergency Medicine Residency. Dr. Pruitt is currently an Emergency Medicine Clinical Pharmacy Specialist at the Medical University of South Carolina in Charleston, SC.

Dr. Pruitt was honored with the Excellence in Diversity from MUSC College of Pharmacy, Presbyterian College School of Pharmacy (PCSP) Alumni of the Year, and keynote speaker for the 2021 PCPS graduation. Dr. Pruitt’s professional interests include cardiac arrest, shock syndromes, trauma, and hosting the #1 Emergency Medicine Pharmacy Podcast “Pharm So Hard” and operation his new pharmacy academy called Pharmacy & Acute Care University.

Key Points from the Episode

  • Entrepreneurship and pharmacy with Dr. Jimmy. [0:00]
  • Entrepreneurship, pharmacy, and education with Jimmy Pruitt. [1:37]
  • Validating a gap in the market for pharmacist-created acute care content. [6:21]
  • Overcoming fear and taking the first step in starting a podcast. [12:01]
  • Balancing full-time work and business as a creator. [16:10]
  • Growing a team and delegating tasks. [22:53]
  • Business growth and vision for a pharmacy education company. [29:02]
  • Emergency medicine pharmacotherapy conference. [34:56]
  • Emergency medicine and pharmacotherapy conference. [39:25]

Episode Highlights

“The biggest thing that people say is like sometimes you have to just jump and you just have to do all these different things. And I’m like, I have a family, one. So that really kind of changes the dynamic. It’s not just me making this big shift, but I want to make sure that I was able to consistently get that number.” – Jimmy Pruitt [18:37]

“But I’ve noticed as I continue doing both of this, me being a business owner and being very focused as being the president, CEO, whatever the title you want to give yourself when you’re when you’re starting out, it actually made me a better employee.” – Jimmy Pruitt [19:09]

“So as I looked at the component of making sure I’m meeting that output, that I need to be able to consider stepping back, I also realized there was so much more value, because now I’m able to understand other people’s problems.” – Jimmy Pruitt [20:29]

“But learning more at the job and understanding the problems that they have, and other people like them have, has made me be able to understand the market, and how I can potentially use that in the future. But more importantly, my skills as a business owner, has allowed me to be able to solve problems that early in my career, and earlier, you know, in places I’ve been people don’t necessarily think about.” – Jimmy Pruitt [21:58]

“I think when looking at growing a team and really get into that first step of, I want to bring someone else into this, especially when you’re talking full time employment. The very first employee that I hired a couple of years back was just my virtual assistant. And one of the first aspects I realized was a very big challenge of mine was, how do I explain what’s in my head that I do every day?” -JImmy Pruitt [25:03]

“The big thing that I believe that I’m trying to accomplish over again, this next five to seven years is to make this to where we have one unified goal and mission we’re trying to do: provide high quality education related to pharmacotherapy.” – Jimmy Pruitt [31:20]

“I want to provide a home for those individuals and I want I want them to be able to have a home, whether they’re gonna be the consumer, or the producer.” – Jimmy Pruitt [32:42]

“And we want to figure out, how can we do it as for us and by us, instead of someone else creating it and thinking they know what we want. Why don’t we just create it from the ground up?” – Jimmy Pruitt [38:01]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich  00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I welcome Dr. Jimmy Pruitt, a clinical pharmacy specialist in emergency medicine at Atrium Health, Founder and CEO of Pharmacy and Acute Care University and Founder and CEO of the Empower RX Conference. We discuss his entrepreneurial journey, including how and why he got started, why he has maintained full-time employment, challenges going from creator to solopreneur, to building a team and the vision for the business over the next five to 10 years. I’m excited to announce our partnership with the 2024 Empower RX conference, a leading event in emergency medicine pharmacotherapy. This year it’s happening in Charlotte, North Carolina on April 26-April 27. I’ll be there and hope to see you there as well. It’s ideal for pharmacists, physicians, PAs, nurses and others in the field. Empower RX offers more than 10 CPE credits, insights from top experts, interactive workshops and groundbreaking research. It’s not just a conference, it’s a community focused experience, fostering learning and networking in a welcoming environment. Take advantage of discounted registration available to the YFP community by using code YFP2024 for 15% off. Again, that’s code YFP2024 or 15%. You can join in person or virtually registered now at EmpowerRX-conference.com and elevate your emergency medicine skills. Again, that’s EmpowerRX-conference.com. 

Tim Ulbrich  01:35

Jimmy, welcome back to the show.

Jimmy Pruitt  01:37

Hey, thanks for having me on again. And it’s been great.

Tim Ulbrich  01:40

So our listeners might remember you back from Episode 284, where we discussed your experiences monetizing your clinical expertise, we’ll link to that episode in the show notes so that folks can dig a little bit deeper. We’ll have some crossover here as well to bring people up to speed. But we certainly did a deeper dive in that episode. And Jimmy, for those that didn’t catch that episode and aren’t already familiar with you and your work, give us a brief introduction to your background and pharmacy and the work that you’re doing now with Atrium Health, as well as being the Founder and CEO of Pharmacy and Acute Care University and the Founder and CEO of the Empower RX Conference.

Jimmy Pruitt 02:14

Thank you. And that’s a mouthful for a lot of you guys. But again, I’m Jim Pruitt. Again, I’m by training at clinical pharmacy specialist at Atrium Health here in Charlotte, a Level One Trauma center, academic, Medical Center, all those great things. And then, in my spare time or lack lack thereof, I like to start off as being a content creator with this pharmacy PEARLS and just having different things that I can give my providers, then that really led to something else led to a podcast called Pharm So Hard. And once that happened, it was really the genesis of something special, I believe. It led to an audience of 1000s of people who didn’t know how to interest in acute care pharmacotherapy, and then from there trying to figure out how to solve the problems that they had. So that led to the next thing, the next thing being after 100. And so episodes Pharm So Hard led to Pharmacy and Acute Care University. And all that really is it just an academy that helps people, pharmacists in particular, with continuing education, but more particularly going to be for board certification prep. So whether you’re studying for your BCPS, or our most popular product that be CMP, your emergency medicine pharmacotherapy, or certification. That is where I spend a lot of my time- question banks, practice exams. And is making a lot of the content that goes along with that. And it’s just been phenomenal to see that growth. And what that led to is people saying, oh, man, I wish I had a place to go to talk about these things versus just studying for it, which led to the Empower RX Conference. So I think, long story short, I am an educator that started to understand the business a little bit more and continuing to learn what business is, and really is focused on how can I not just bring myself along, but how can I bring other people with me to understand the business side of things and monetize their expertise and content? 

Tim Ulbrich  04:08

We’re gonna talk a lot about that on this episode, Jimmy, I want to pick your brain have you know, you started with with an idea identified a problem that needed to be solved starting to solve that problem, which opened up more doors built community in this niche, which is really exciting. And now as you enter this growth phase, you know, there’s exciting opportunities and challenges with, Hey, how does this grow beyond the hours that you have in the day? Right? And what what what challenges may that bring? I want to first ask you that I was I was stalking you on LinkedIn and noticed in your headline, you have four different words creator, connector, educator, and pharmacist. Do one of those resonate more with you than the others and why?

Jimmy Pruitt  04:49

I think that is that’s a very, that’s a great question for one, but I think it it depends, like a good lawyer would say it depends. It depends on what I’m doing. And I think as I look at the different platforms that I’m currently in, I tend to be on one side more than other depending on that particular project. So I like to say, the biggest thing is like, I can be a connector, because again, most of everything I’m doing is usually not just myself, I’m usually bringing different people on whether that’s going to be at work. And I’m working with a provider, and a nurse is having a concern about something, I’m connecting those two and that problem and trying to also provide a solution. The same thing for when I’m in my pacu, where my pack you have, well, a potential customer has a problem. They want to be board certified, and I’m trying to connect them with the best highest quality information that helps them get to their end goal. And my conference, prospective people want a place to come. So I’m literally physically now connecting them with other people throughout the world in emergency medicine, pharmacotherapy. So I think connectors the the one thing I can say, but realistically, I have to be all of those other things, to be able to be a good connector. I have to be a great pharmacist, I have to be entrepreneur to make these things happen consistently. And I have to be kind of a creator to be able to have that audience to begin with. So I think connectors the one word, but I think depending on what hat I’m wearing, is really just depends on that location. 

Tim Ulbrich  06:21

Well, we say it depends on this podcast often. So that is that is welcome. But I appreciate what you’re what you’re sharing there. I want I want to dig deeper in a few areas that I see come up often with aspiring entrepreneurs and side hustlers that I talk with. And you know, one of the first things is really what was the beginning? Like, right, so the genesis of starting the side hustle that’s turned into a business, obviously, you have many, many different activities that you’re doing within that business. You know, tell us a little bit more about the problem that you are trying to solve and how you identify there is a gap and a need in the market. And I know you shared that briefly already. But you know, a natural question might be well, like Jimmy, aren’t these pharmacists already part of other organizations or, you know, cohorts where they’re able to gather other societies and so forth. So what stood out to you as an opportunity in the market that wasn’t already being served that you said, Hey, not only am I a part of this community, but I feel like my peers, my colleagues could also, you know, come together and we can provide value?

Jimmy Pruitt  07:22

Absolutely. So I think one of the things we look at, and I think the very first problem I wanted to solve was providing high quality education in the acute care space. So if we look, one of the things that is very common is that from a oncology standpoint, from a transplant, those medications that are branded still they have a lot of great continuing education out there. Because again, there’s grants, there’s different incentives for companies to make that content. And a lot of those get heavily represented. But from an acute care standpoint, a lot of things from a pharmacotherapy perspective was not necessarily being created by pharmacists. And emergency medicine in the pharmacy space is my first you know, love within this, but I realized that emergency medicine has everything is critical care is ambulatory care is all these other spaces. So I realized that there wasn’t pharmacist created content that was detailed, that was detailed, but also a concise so that we can see it and be actionable. And that was the aftermath of creating the pharmacy Frothy Pearls series that I created when I was a PGY2 resident at Grady. Once that kind of became the first thing I was like, Okay, well, the problem trying to solve is providing high quality education, from a pharmacist perspective in the acute care space, that is highly assessable. That was kind of a next branch with the audience that I was able to generate from from farm so hard, I realized that, hey, I’m already providing education, but I didn’t necessarily consider it to be very different and very unique. But then the audience would tell me these things. And after you start to look, you kind of change your perspective on how you’re looking at your interactions with people want to online, you realize, hey, I have a model here, from a business perspective that I can sustain because most of it, you know, I would love to direct you away for free every day. But it’s not sustainable. Yeah. And that was kind of the first component of finding pharmacist-created acute care, physical therapy information that was concise, but also provide them continuing education as well.

Tim Ulbrich  09:25

My next question was around validation. And how do you validate that that gap truly exists? You know, one of the traps, especially early on in a business as a hey, I’ve got a great idea. I’m gonna kind of run hard and then you realize, oh, wait a minute, like the problem that I thought needed to be solved. Either I’m in misalignment or maybe it’s not as big of a problem as I thought, you know, others may think and so you partly answered that when you said, hey, you know, through the podcasts, obviously, seeing your listeners getting some feedback, you are getting real time information that I’m sure shaped your next steps. Was there anything you did prior to starting that podcast as a PGY2 to validate the problem that needed to be solved, or was that the first step in?

Jimmy Pruitt  10:05

I think it was the first step. I would love to say that I had this aesthetic plan and things of that nature. But realistically, the first two years I was in business, I didn’t know I was in business. Yeah, because I wasn’t charging anything. I think that part of the equation that I didn’t look at what’s the value I was providing, and whether or not that was something that could be sold as a resume. And I think within pharmacy in general, we get so used to just providing a lot of content. And we’re just doing it for just the validation of our colleagues and just to provide great education. But I think the first piece that helped me understand the business aspect of it was when we started creating some of these, you know, hour long presentations, people said, hey, you know, is this for continuing education? And I said, Well, I can get it for but I didn’t realize the process, go through that. And then I remember saying, Hey, how can I get this credential? Is this AACPE certified? It’s like, oh, it’s a price tag to that. Yeah. And then the first step, like, how do I get that taken care of versus me just paying out of pocket a significant amount of money for one hour? I think the first the very first time I did this, three years ago, the credit hours was like $600 for one hour CE. And I was like, Well, if I have 100, people come to this, and we break this down, I think, you know, a few bucks would wouldn’t be horrible for me to do it. So I think that was the first step. But I think I don’t, it made me just think differently. That was the very first trigger to realize, like, hey, if I’m gonna sustain this, I have to figure out a way to monetize it, to just cover the basics of what I’m doing. I think that was the very first step in realizing people were okay with that. Not as many as I thought, initially. There’s a certain amount of people that was okay with that. And I realized that if I can scale it to any degree, it may be something that I can build build upon.

Tim Ulbrich  12:01

And speaking of first steps, you know, I often will will talk with folks that have an idea. But taking that idea, and taking the first step to begin implementation. It’s scary, right? I mean, you know, even when you do the validation of the idea, it’s one thing if people say, I’m interested, I’m gonna pay for it. It’s another thing if they actually show up and pay for it. And as you and I both know, you can assume some much lower percentage than then people may report. And so my question here is, how were you able to be comfortable with taking that first step, and maybe as a PGY2 resident, you know, maybe the pressures off a little bit, and you weren’t yet thinking about as a business, but even that, I’ve talked with pharmacists that are like, Hey, I’ve got a great idea. But, you know, to run a podcast, I got to do A, B, and C, and I got to worry about the microphone and editing and hosting, and yada, yada, yada. And soon enough, there’s no action. Right? There’s no action. And my question for you is, how were you able to take that important first step, that important first action, from which even though you didn’t know you’re in business, from what you would eventually learn and get feedback that would become the foundation of the business?

Jimmy Pruitt  13:09

Yeah, I think that the first step for me, and I would love again, to say that it was it was just phenomenal intuition and I was great, but it really came from mentorship. To be honest, the first thing was that someone, one of my mentors, John Paca, wanted to hear a podcast episode done by me. And he, he, I remember him mentioned, he’s my RPD, he’s my mentor, he was like, I want you to be yourself. And I want you to be different than everyone else. And that was the first thing he wanted me to do. So I think the process went from me having an idea to someone really pushing me and said they want to hear it. So the result was always him hearing this versus me starting it. So I think that was the first goal initially was that, hey, how let me produce this first episode, so he can hear it? Yeah. And that was the end result of the very first task or create this first pearl. So I can present it to these individuals because it’s part of my residency objectives. So I had like this end goal that I started while I was still in residency, but I think the biggest thing was him wanting to hear an episode, because the Pearls was the first thing but it wasn’t necessarily a first step into business. Pharm So Hard was actually the first step into business because again, that’s what opened me up to understanding the problems and the things that were valuable to people that wasn’t just my RPD. I think the first step was being able to start that podcast and the first step of me actually doing that was him saying, hey, I want I want to hear this. So I think for me, my action item was to complete it versus to start it. I think, getting to that point to where letting other people hear that episode, now that took a much longer period of time. To say same episode, I recorded the same thing, but having other people hear that and I was just fortunate to have him, Sean Troy Johnson, a few people to saying hey, you know, you should go for this and you should now let other people hear it. And I think once that came about my partner, Oscar Santalo, who initially started together, we went back and forward it on PGY1 but never gained traction. In PGY2 we gained a little bit more traction, and I made the first episode. And then it’s like, hey, I’ll do the next one. So it became this kind of back and forth to where I made the first one, we listened to it, it was fine. And then the next step was for him to do it. And then I had a little bit more time to be able to get to the next step. But I think those were our first action items. And I thought that I didn’t think it would lead to what it did. But I think just getting started and having some type of MVP is really what it being just having an MVP to start with. Now everything I do, I tried to create an MVP. But I think the first episode, and that was what, Brian Gilbert on antiquated reversal, back 2019? And its 2018. And that kind of lit to what it is today. But I think just getting that first MVP and having someone to push me, because traditionally, I wouldn’t have went through all the steps because my first episode took 16 hours to edit.

Tim Ulbrich  16:08

I remember those well. And I’ll occasionally throw back on, you know, episode one, just remember the journey. And, you know, but it’s a great reminder, I’ve mentioned on this show several times the book Start by Jon Acuff and I think your journey and story is such an important one that, you know, the dots aren’t always in a straight line. And the key is, when we take that first step, you know, we might have a loose idea, often not of what might be steps two, three, four and five, but it’s really through that first step that, you know, things start to happen, where in this case, your meeting a learning objective, you know, you sat down, you did the recording, obviously, there was some nudging in that process, you know, eventually it’s okay, we’re gonna edit this, we’re gonna share this, you know, and then they start snowballing. And obviously, through there, you start to build community, get feedback, validate the idea and start to evolve this into a business. And I’m so glad you mentioned mentorship, because it’s a critical reminder, for all our listeners out there that are precepting students, residents, fellows that are educators that, you know, sometimes we see something in someone, and it’s not until we can really slow down and have some of those in depth meaningful conversations that we can really help, you know, be the gentle nudge to help them – that learner  – see something that may, they may not even see themselves. And that’s really what I heard, you know, in your journey, that your RPD saw something in you that perhaps, you know, naturally as a resident, you may not always see in the moment. And I love that right, because I think that’s, that’s true for many, many stories, many journeys, where we can reflect back on a mentor, I’m thinking of several, as you’re talking that were so influential, and just action steps that I took, that led to other things, but it wouldn’t have been without their mentorship and encouragement from the start. 

Jimmy Pruitt  17:52

Absolutely. 

Tim Ulbrich  17:54

So Jimmy, if I’m following your journey correctly, your five plus years in as a creator with the podcast, creating content, three years or so with the Acute Care University, we’ll talk about the conference here in a little bit as well. And you’re still working full time in clinical practice. Talk to us about your decision to stay full time in practice, as you’re trying to also grow a business and what value that’s provided and challenges, I would presume as well. 

Jimmy Pruitt  18:23

It’s been unique, I would say, one of the things that we looked at is making sure I’m at that number, and making sure I don’t make the mistakes that I’ve seen other people do. And more importantly, make the mistakes that I’ve read about. The biggest thing that people say is like sometimes you have to just jump and you just have to do all these different things. And I’m like, I have a family, one. So that really kind of changes the dynamic. It’s not just me making this big shift, but I want to make sure that I was able to consistently get that number. And early on I end up saying once I’m able to make you know, one and a half times my my salary consistently, and my business can continue to function smoothly, then it will be a conversation of what I do from a full time standpoint. But I’ve noticed as I continue doing both of this, me being a business owner and being very focused as being the president, CEO, whatever the title you want to give yourself when you’re when you’re starting out, it actually made me a better employee. That was very unusual because I started going to work and said, Okay, understand the objectives that I’m trying to do, and understand how, what it feels like to have someone work for you. Yeah, and be able to accomplish these goals. So when I have conversations with  the board and with the administrators at my hospital, I’m asking the question, Hey, what are the KPIs that we’re trying to understand? And they’re like, What are you you’re a clinical pharmacist? I said listen, I can solve many problems. I realize the problems that you’re going to care about. And more importantly, I realize the problems that the person that report to you is going to care about. I’m going to help save people lives. I work in emergency department. That’s my fulfillment. How can I make this a, you know, a symbiotic relationship to where I get the resources that I want, but I’m also getting the things that you want me to get. So from that perspective, being a better employee has made it more enjoyable, because now I’m able to go in and solve problems and be able to find different things and have conversations that before I started being, you know, heavily involved in my company, I didn’t understand all the problems. I didn’t understand those problems. So as I looked at the component of making sure I’m meeting that output, that I need to be able to consider stepping back, I also realized there was so much more value, because now I’m able to understand other people’s problems. And  it makes me say, Hey, I may want to do this for a little bit more, because I’m able to do consultant work now where I can get brought in as a consultant for and ED pharmacotherapy, find different problems, and then say, Hey, I’ve done these things now, at certain institutions, and it opens up more doors for me at this point in my career, and I just don’t think that I initially thought that. Because I think everyone who goes into business initially thinks, oh, I’m going to work for myself, it’s gonna be great. I can wake up when I want to. It takes quite a while. But I’ve enjoyed the process. And I think as I look at all these things, what having a business and working full time has allowed me to do is cut a lot of this the skin out of my life when it comes to tasks that I don’t necessarily need to do. And it’s made it easier for me to focus on family, focus on activities, I want to focus on health. So I think having both of those has kind of put me in a position to where I have to stay very focused and enjoy, pick the things that I want to enjoy, and to glean different insights from situations knowing that there will be a transition at some point, yeah. But learning more at the job and understanding the problems that they have, and other people like them have, has made me be able to understand the market, and how I can potentially use that in the future. But more importantly, my skills as a business owner, has allowed me to be able to solve problems that early in my career, and earlier, you know,  in places I’ve been people don’t necessarily think about. So yeah, I’ve enjoyed it. There’s challenges, of course of not being able to take significant breaks and being able to have days where you just do nothing. But I think realistically, the continuation of doing it and seeing some benefits allow me to be able to do both, and be able to enjoy both. Because now I walk into the ER I don’t have to be a CEO today. I could just focus on this component and is vice versa. So I’ve enjoyed it. It’s helped with burnout. But I’ve really enjoyed the process. 

Tim Ulbrich  22:52

A few things you said there that I love, Jimmy,  that are worth highlighting, you know that the patience that I hear there, the intentionality in your thought process. You talked about a certain multiple of income one and a half times and you know, that that’d be in a place where maybe the conversation starts to shift, obviously, you and your situation – everyone’s entrepreneur journey is different, right. And I think there’s sometimes there’s this blanket, kind of advice or blanket type of idealism around entrepreneurship, which is like, jump in, and you’ll figure it out. You know, and it’s like, you know, for some people, that is their story. It’s not my story, wasn’t your story. But for some people it is. And I think for everyone’s situation, you know, it’s different. And some of the things you said really resonated with me as I had some crossover from full time work and the entrepreneurial journey. And it was several years in before making that transition. But the connection between, you know, the entrepreneurial journey and becoming a better employee, I felt that. I felt like I brought more skills to the workplace. I felt like it prevented burnout, right, some of the change in pace and environment and work and, and I think there’s something to be said, too, when you’ve got, you know, the business that’s growing, and all of a sudden your employment becomes this place of opportunity and learning and growth like, wow. I would argue Jimmy’s probably that much better of an employee and an asset. Like you’re you’re not dependent necessarily in that moment on that income, you know, as you’re building something else, and you’re able to really bring the value to the workplace, you know, that you can bring. So I think a lot a lot of wisdom there that you shared, as well as just continuing to build build the skills. Jimmy, as you have grown from content creator to solopreneur, to now building out a team. And we’ll talk again about you know, the conference here in a little bit in the logistics and all that’s involved, my mind is spinning partly because I’ve been through this journey as well. And I know that with that growth, comes fruit and comes challenges as you look into building a team and delegating and letting go. Just talk to us about that journey. I think it’s something we don’t hear enough about, as we often hear maybe more solopreneur type of stories but as you have grown and you built the team, what has been and some of the fruit what have been the challenges of that?

Jimmy Pruitt  25:02

I think when looking at growing a team and really get into that first step of, I want to bring someone else into this, especially when you’re talking full time employment. The very first employee that I hired a couple of years back was just my virtual assistant. And one of the first aspects I realized was a very big challenge of mine was, how do I explain what’s in my head that I do every day? I didn’t realize how challenging that was going to be, until I started assigning tasks and realized that that wasn’t necessarily what the output that I wanted. And I realized that it wasn’t necessarily the employee’s fault. It was really how I was able to give information and how I was how detailed I was able to be about what’s the purpose, how to get there. And then SOPs and having templates and all those things that people talk about that are not, the cool thing to think about are so valuable. And what it allows, it allowed me to do is be able to communicate more efficiently. When I first got into pharmacy, what are the key things that was very, you know, self conscious about my ability to communicate, because again, I grew up inner city kid, again, not necessarily being around many college educated people. Again, I’m one of like, six high school graduates in my family. So the way I communicated, it was, again, very different than the way I communicate on a daily basis now. It was something that was a very limiting factor for me. And I realized that I had to figure out a way to communicate better. And I really, I love to talk, I love to kind of do these different things. But as many people can probably hear, I have a Southern sudden tone, I still, you know, speak in a particular way. And I realized that in order for me to work better with other people, especially on diverse set of people, I need to translate that, translate that and technology has been phenomenal. Being able to voice to text has been the best feature I’ve ever had. So that took the initial challenge of communicating exactly what I wanted to my first employee. And it kind when I went back and edit it and went back and forth, that changed everything. Then going from there to next step was figuring out how can I not spend all of my time not doing this, in the next step was reading different books, educating myself as a, Hey, have that employee have them make the template. You know the output that you want, you know, what’s quality work for you now have them do that. And I think once I’ve transitioned from being the only person that produce the output, to try and to explain that and figuring out better ways to explain what I want to allowing the person who I’ve been working with now for over two and a half years to make the template because they do it well. That was a very long process. But I think it was one of the more unique and impactful things that I’ve learned through this process. And it went from a major challenge to being something now that I consider to be a very, you know, streamlined process. And now bringing other people on has been a lot easier because I have something and a have that he can I can show them as an output, but I can also provide them now templates, SOPs and things of that nature. So I think that’s one aspect that many people don’t speak of, or think about, but the books are out there, people don’t speak on it, and think about enough when they’re starting a business. And I everything you do, guys, if you possibly can record yourself, speak through it, dictate it and do it once. So you can always be able to reference back to it. That’s the one thing I would like to tell people and then realizing that you have to take some level of consideration depth that everyone is not going to do it the same way you do it every single time. You have to create a process that allows for them to get close, I say 75% as good as you are on a consistent basis.

Tim Ulbrich  29:02

That’s really good stuff, Jimmy. I’ve had similar experiences and I think often people run up into, you know, barriers where they start to grow, they might hire a contractor to hire employees, they run into some of the frustrations you experienced. You know, I think we’re you push through it, often people may retract and kind of fall back into this solopreneur model, which again, everyone’s build something for different reasons, different goals. But as you continue on this vision, being able to accomplish the vision you have will depend on Hey, what time, what tasks need to get done beyond that that Jimmy can do within a day which requires a team and processes and all the things that you mentioned. You’re sharing reminded me of the book, procrastinate on purpose by Rory Vaden. He talks about, you know, exactly this concept of, you know, could you do the task in 10 minutes, that’s going to take you you know, five hours, you document you could. but there’s a certain return on time investment Right, if if you do a repetitive task five times a week, that takes you 30 minutes, sure, it’s gonna take you a lot longer to train someone to get to the quality that you want. But over enough repetitions, especially those recurring tasks, if you can fight through that, you’re gonna have a lot long term benefit of the return on time. And so I love the share that you had there, I think is a great example of that. I want to ask you to zoom out on your business for a moment. And I think it’s sometimes it’s hard as the CEO, as the person who’s operationalizing, at times in the weeds, you’re in the midst of planning for a conference, I’m sure there’s tons of logistics things that are moving, it’s hard to zoom back out to that 20,000 foot view to say, Where are we going? And why are we going in this direction? And so, Jimmy, as you zoom out and look at all the things you’re doing across the content, and the podcast, the PACU, the conference, the various educational products, the offerings that you have, what’s the five to 10 year vision? Where do you see the growth going, as you look at all these things you started and now you move into this this next phase of growth?

Jimmy Pruitt  31:10

That’s a great question. And I do this every once a while and I had to force myself usually, every every quarter, I tried to do it. Sometimes better than others. The big thing that I believe that I’m trying to accomplish over again, this next five to seven years is to make this to where we have one unified goal and mission we’re trying to do: provide high quality education related to pharmacotherapy. How do I go from many different products, many different services, many different things to one umbrella company that can be operationalized by other people consistently and provide that value that we started out with, and, and being okay, not knowing each individual step to get there. So I would love to say in in five years that I’m in a position where I’m sitting on a few boards, I am the one who makes the final checkoff. But I want other pharmacists that have this, this passion, to be able to impact people through education, to be able to monetize their expertise to have a home. And I don’t necessarily feel that there’s a huge home for that now, there’s opportunities to volunteer your time, there’s opportunities to be part of other organizations, things that nature, but I believe that there’s I should say, there’s not an abundance of homes for pharmacists, and those who engage in pharmacotherapy to share, monetize their expertise. I want to provide a home for those individuals and I want I want them to be able to have a home, whether they’re gonna be the consumer, or the producer. I think that those is the things that push me forward and figure out how can I add more people to my team to add that passion? How can I make sure that we do this, and I feel good about it, because at the end of all of this, the one main thing that’s going to happen is improved patient care. So for me, when I think my business perspective on that, I feel much better knowing that the very, very end end goal and very in any user of this, the recipient of all the things we’re doing is going to be someone getting the right drug at the right dose at the right time. And doing it in the right way. Yeah, so for me, I want to provide a platform that I’m leading, or that I’ve led, that’s going to be able to influence patients by those who expertly use pharmacotherapy.

Tim Ulbrich  33:42

What I love about that we haven’t talked too much about that on this episode is I’m a firm believer in having a strong anchor in your business of a why behind everything you’re doing, because through the ups and the downs, you’re going to have to rely on that anchor. And when you talk about everything pointing towards improved patient care, wow, that connects all the dots of everything we’ve been talking about, right? Because building a team, delegation, getting comfortable with that space, and, you know, may not always be done the same way that you do it in here community! Community of the consumer. Community of the Creator. Like, wow, the urgency of that is important, right? Because that’s all aligned towards being able to have more people in this community, creating in this community, as well as getting information and benefiting from the community, all pointing towards improved patient care. Like that, I just hope everyone hears that that is thinking about an idea or has a business that when you have that type of compelling torch of a vision and a flame. It provides so much clarity. I’m not saying it’s gonna be easy. It provides so much clarity of where are you going and why are you going there and that is so critical when you’re building something and not every business can say that. To have that type of clarity of vision and that type of clarity of messaging. I love that. Absolutely love that. Let’s talk about the Empower RX Conferene coming up April 26-27th in Charlotte, I’m really excited about our collaboration surrounding this event. I’m looking forward to have the opportunity to meet your community there live in Charlotte. And I suspect that we have several listeners that have different areas of clinical expertise that maybe are in acute care and are going to be attending the event. Maybe they’re brainstorming other educational opportunities in their own niche. So tell us more about the event. How did it get started? And how is it evolved to the current state?

Jimmy Pruitt  35:27

Absolutely. EmpowerRx has been just another brainchild of wanting to improve patient care. But realizing again, we sort of go back a couple years ago and realize the history of emergency medicine. Again, we had three PGY2s in emergency medicine back in 2004. I’m starting one this, we’re over 119, I believe, in 2020. So I think as we look at the number of the growth that’s there, we realized that not every aspect of emergency medicine pharmacotherapy has been able to catch up. One of the areas that I remember mentioning, as we made Pharm So Hard was that there wasn’t a place for us to come together, hang up talk about just emergency medicine, versus just having a 10 minute Pearls or just having a 60 minute session with a few presentations. That was you know, spread out dispersed amongst the major organizations, they’ve done a phenomenal job of providing resources, and helping us grow the specialty. But I wanted to provide a place that it was very unique to emergency medicine pharmacists. And if you know anything about us, if you’ve had, if any listeners are part of, you know that you have to be a certain type of personality to consistently work in emergency department. And I wanted to provide a space for that. So I remember sending a text message to Kyle Wendt, he was he was at MUSC at the time, and saying, hey, what if we just created our own conference? And what if we just made it to where it was? It was like, it wasn’t like any other from a professional standpoint, what if you just you didn’t wear dress clothes? What if you didn’t come there at a tie, you came there and a T shirt, some jeans, and you just was having a good time. And we just spent all day talking about things that really impact emergency medicine pharmacotherapy, whether it was clinical, or whether it was the social components. There’s a lot of things that happen in emergency medicine on a day to day basis that there’s it’s not in the textbook. You don’t know how to have the interaction with the one mean nurse. You don’t know how to, you know, make sure that you’re able to think quickly when that patient comes in, that’s unannounced. We want to provide a place where we can talk about those things. But also, can we be ourselves the same way we are at the bedside. Because many ER pharmacists will tell you, when we go to the actual pharmacy area, there’s a certain persona that we we uphold when we talking to our superiors. And there’s what happens in the ER when we spend the majority of our time with nurses, physicians, EMTs things that nature. So I wanted to provide that environment, that community. And we sent this out in 2020. And we want to figure out, how can we do it as for us and by us, instead of someone else creating it and thinking they know what we want. Why don’t we just create it from the ground up? And that really was the initial phase of this. And it led to us being able to create an environment where we speak on many aspects of acute care pharmacotherapy, particularly again, the resuscitation part of it. So whether you’re a central pharmacy that responds to cardiac arrest, we have information there for you whether you’re a nurse who just happened to be interested in the drug component, we have something for you. So I think we are a emergency medicine pharmacotherapy conference. And we’re not necessarily a EM pharmacist conference in a say. So I think it kind of brings together our world in one place over two days, and the initial one was going to be virtual, because again, COVID definitely has something to do with that. And then last year, partnering with SAEM. And we got to see a sense of it. But I think that the next phase was okay, we keep saying that we’re for us, and by us, we have that everywhere. This is the first year we’re going to do everything completely in person, have some virtual access and completely be for us and by us and we grew our team tremendously to build something that again, it’s for all of us. And when I say us, that can be a physician, that can be a nurse, that can be anyone in that space, but you now have a home to discuss pharmacotherapy. 

Tim Ulbrich  39:24

I’m really excited to experience it. I’ve been to many, many pharmacy conferences, but I’m sensing there’s something different, something unique about this, and I can’t wait to be a part of it. Hopefully the emergency medicine folk will allow me into the room. It’ll be a good, good, good chance to interact. And I’m really looking for it’s another great example to me, Jimmy, of something that, you know, you obviously had interest built up in a community and following at the point of when you launched that first one, but you still had to take that first step, right. And sometimes that means success. Sometimes that means failure and certainly you’re going to learn and grow from it. And I can hear the evolution that the conference has taken the last several years. So really looking forward to being a part of that. And I just as we wrap up, Jimmy want to say I admire and I mean this wholeheartedly admire, what you’ve built, why you’ve built it, how you built it. I love the niche focus. I love the clear messaging you have, there’s a strong sense of community. And there’s a strong anchor back to the vision of why that you’re doing and that that is the recipe for success in my mind as people are thinking about building a business. So, Jimmy, thank you so much for taking time to come on the show. I appreciate it.

Tim Ulbrich  40:29

As we wrap up today’s episode, let me remind our acute care healthcare listeners about our partnership with the 2024 Empower Rx conference, a leading event and emergency medicine pharmacotherapy. This year, it’s happening in Charlotte, North Carolina on April 26, and 27th. I’ll be there and hope to see you there as well. It’s ideal for pharmacists, physicians, PAs, nurses and others in the field. The Empower RX conference offers more than 10 CPE credits, insights from top experts interactive workshops, and groundbreaking research. It’s not just a conference, it’s a community focused experience fostering learning and networking in a welcoming environment. Take advantage of discounted registration available to the YFP community by using code YFP2024 for 15% off. Again, that’s code YFP2024 for 15% off you can join in person or virtually register now at EmpowerRx-conference.com and elevate your emergency medicine skills. Again, that’s EmpowerRx-conference.com.

Jimmy Pruitt  40:29

Thanks for having me on, Tim.

Tim Ulbrich  41:32

 As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/ disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

 

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YFP 338: Stepping Into Your Inner Radiance in 2024 with Dr. Christina Fontana


Dr. Christina Fontana, creator of The Pharmacist Coach, shares her journey from pharmacy to entrepreneurship, healing from trauma, and setting goals.

Episode Summary

In this episode of the YFP Podcast, we welcome Dr. Christina Fontana, PharmD, the visionary creator of The Pharmacist Coach. Dr. Fontana shares her inspiring journey from pharmacy to entrepreneurship, revealing the impact of her early experiences and the resilience that fueled her pursuit of a purpose-driven path. From navigating personal challenges like eating disorders and anxiety to healing from childhood trauma, Dr. Fontana discusses her commitment to inner work and counseling as essential components of her transformative process. The episode also explores the intertwined nature of personal growth and business development, with insights into Dr. Fontana’s methodology of “structured flexibility.” The discussion concludes with a focus on mindset and goal-setting strategies for pharmacists, encouraging alignment with one’s true desires and an embodiment of authenticity. Tune in for a captivating exploration of career empowerment, resilience, and setting ambitious goals for the year ahead.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Christina Fontana, AKA The Pharmacist Coach, is a pharmacist, holistic healer, rapid transformation business coach, speaker, and 5-time author. She helps spiritually-driven women to ‘Reignite Your Light’ and shine in your brilliance, confidence, and true essence. 

She started her entrepreneurial journey 11 years ago being disempowered, homelessness, broke, with eating disorders, PTSD, and anxiety and has since transformed, turning her pain into purpose, empowering women all over the world to step into more purpose, power, and prosperity.

Over the last 11 years, Dr. Christina has been providing uplifting, transformational content through her Youtube videos, books, courses, programs, and Conferences. Her mission is to empower more healers and business owners unlock their innate gifts to create a domino effect of healing on the world.

Key Points From the Episode

  • Career, trauma, and entrepreneurship with Dr. Christina Fontana. 
  • Career journey and goal setting in pharmacy. [1:53]
  • Eating disorders, perfectionism, and self-discovery in pharmacy school. [5:06]
  • Trauma, intuition, and decision-making. [11:19]
  • Healing from childhood trauma and inner work for personal growth. [16:00]
  • Personal growth and business development. [19:57]
  • Personal growth through entrepreneurship and parenting. [28:19]
  • Mindset and goal setting for pharmacists. [32:20]
  • Setting goals and being flexible in entrepreneurship. [39:38]

Episode Highlights

“All of these tools that I’ve learned throughout the years, I now help people with. And someone I was I was working at a retreat one time, and somebody came up to me, they’re like, You should call it like rapid transformation, because people shift so quickly, because I, because I’m so intuitive. And I’ve developed that muscle so much within myself, I can look at someone and say, okay, and coach them and ask them these questions that are going to draw out of them.” – Dr. Christina Fontana  [17:44]

“I grew up in a very suppressive environment, and it doesn’t allow for you to tap into who you really are, the creativity, the gifts and that’s why I bring this work into helping entrepreneurs because if you’re suppressed, you’re not going to show up fully self expressed when you give a talk, when you go to put your message out there this work is so much of you know, the inner work, but also the practical strategy of how do I bring all of who I am to the table when I am speaking, so that I show up with power, conviction. And that’s how you influence people because then they know you care, they see the passion that you have. And that’s how you start to create a domino effect of healing in the world. Which is really why I believe I’m here is at the root cause it’s to be a beacon of light for other people and that’s why I’m so vulnerable in my story.” – Dr. Christina Fontana  [18:45]

“Translate your gifts into gold.” -Dr. Christina Fontana  [21:38]

“But when you when you embody that version of yourself, like tapping into the energy of this is what I want this is who would I have to be to achieve that goal? Because there’s usually an evolution or a next version of yourself, right? Maybe a higher version of yourself? What would that be? And feeling into that frequency?” -Dr. Christina Fontana  35:28

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich  00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I welcome Dr. Christina Fontana, creator of The Pharmacist Coach. We talk about her career journey in a pharmacy, her trauma experience growing up in an abusive household and how that shaped who she is today, and her entrepreneurial journey focused on empowering others to transform their lives reveal their inner radiance and step into more energy, confidence and power. We then wrap up the show by discussing strategies for getting in the right mindset to set big goals for 2024. Let’s hear a brief message from YFP team member Justin Woods, and then we’ll jump into my interview with Dr. Christina Fontana.

AD SPOT  00:45

This is Justin Woods from the YFP team with a quick message before the show. If you listen to the YFP Podcast, you may learn something every now and then, either from Tim Ulbrich, Tim Baker, or one of our guests. A lot of people listen to the show, but they may not execute or implement the things they learned. As pharmacists, we know the impact of non-adherence on patient outcomes and their overall well being. As a pharmacist, myself and part of the YFP team. I talk with pharmacists every day who are confused about how to implement financial knowledge. Pharmacists share with me that they’re treading water financially, maybe took a DIY approach, reached a plateau and are confused about what to do next. Or those who worked for decades can see the light at the end of the tunnel, and feel uncertain about how the next chapter will unfold. If that sounds like you, one, it is not uncommon to feel that way. And two, does it make sense for us to have a conversation to see if YFP Planning can help you visit YFPplanning.com or follow the link in the Show Notes to find a time that works for your schedule.

Tim Ulbrich  01:50

Christina, welcome to the show. 

Dr. Christina Fontana  01:53

Thank you so much. We’re here on a Monday morning and it’s raining. So, bring in the sunshine.

Tim Ulbrich  01:58

It’s a great way to start a Monday, especially when as you mentioned it’s cloudy, it’s rainy, it’s cold, but you very much have the holiday spirit wearing your your polar bear gear. I love that. And I know the energy you’re going to bring to the show is going to light lighten the mood that has been set by the outside weather. So I’m really looking forward to this opportunity to interview you. We’re going to unpack your career journey, we’ll talk about your entrepreneurial journey. And then I’m gonna pick your brain about advice you would have for our community listening about how you think about goal setting, as well as how you coach others on goal setting as we get ready to turn the page onto 2024. So let’s start with your career journey in pharmacy. What led you into the profession? Where did you go to pharmacy school? And what was some of the work that you did upon graduation? 

Dr. Christina Fontana  02:45

Yeah, so my dad was a pharmacist. I’m from a family full of pharmacists. So my uncle, my aunt, my sister, my dad, we all went to St. John’s University and I grew up working in my dad’s store back from when I was like three years old, sweeping the floors, helping people find, you know, cards for their granddaughter, working the register. Really, I learned my people skills, my dad would always say, Alright, go talk to that person. Go help that person, go sweep the floor. And I think that those early experiences really helped me to kind of plant those seeds of number one customer service. My dad was, he knew everybody’s name. He knew like, what every customer, what their kids’ names were, what sports they were in. And I just would watch him in awe and be like, Wow, he’s just so…how do you know all this and then he knew all the drugs too in the back. You’re amazing. So I was both in awe of my father, but also extremely terrified of him because he was a strong Italian dad, very strict, very controlling. And I actually grew up and I’m very open about this with a lot of abuse. So physical and mental, emotional. I loved my dad and I still do to this day. And I see now that that was an experience that I went through to strengthen my character to be who I am today. And I’ve gone through a lot of healing through that and but like kind of back to what you know, back at the pharmacy, so there was all of that going on. So like I loved him, I admired him. He taught me so much and he was so charismatic, intelligent. And so I absorbed all of that I was like a sponge, you know, from a very early age. And I knew in those interactions with people that were at the counter. That’s really where I like loved talking to people and hearing about their stories or what they were doing for the day. I grew to love people. And I just knew in my heart like I felt this, this rush in my body whenever someone was like, “Oh my God, you really helped me!” I was like, This is my purpose and so from probably around 13-14 years old, I knew that I wanted to help people. And so in my mind, I was like, oh, pharmacy. So the day that I got into pharmacy school, I feel like my whole world opened up, I was so excited. It was like this whole new adventure. And at the same time, there was this internal struggle that was happening within me. So I had an eating disorder in high school where, you know, I was anorexic. Put a lot of pressure on myself. Highly perfectionistic. Does this sound familiar, pharmacists, right? And so my trauma showed up in my body as an eating disorder high, you know, high levels of anxiety. I was a high performer, you know, like, I did kick line dance, all these different things, all throughout my childhood. Because that was what I thought I had to be in order to be loved by and accepted by my family. And so I went through pharmacy school, my head was down, you know, I, I actually developed a different eating disorder at that time. So it was night eating syndrome. That’s a whole other story. But essentially, what I learned was that my going through my healing journey, my nervous system was so overloaded from all of that trauma, the high performing, trying to be perfect, all of those things, that eventually had to come out somewhere because I suppressed my emotions. And you and I could talk about this for hours. But fast forward to kind of as I was going through pharmacy school, I was kind of struggling internally with all of this, you know, my eating disorder, anxiety, it just got compounded because it’s so much pressure to be in pharmacy school to make sure that you’re, you know, making the most out of your social time and, you know, the commute and all of the other things that come with being, you know, in pharmacy school, that pressure. So eventually, I got to the end of my career, or my, my time at St. John’s. And I started to look at all of these different opportunities. And I was really excited about pursuing a residency. And so I, I told my, my family, and I knew they weren’t going to be happy about it, because again, my dad owned this pharmacy and groomed me and, you know, helped me for years, and I just said, I’m like, I want to do this other path. And when I said that, he was not happy, because again, I was a people pleaser, I did whatever my parents said. I was a good girl, all of that. And so what I was, what he was saying back to me was like, you know, how could you do this to us? Like, you’re betraying us, you know, I helped you blah, blah, blah. And I didn’t care. For the first time in my life, I just felt it in my gut. And I think it was the dynamic to have probably somewhat of a toxic environment that I was already in, in that pharmacy setting. Combined with this drive that I had in my in this, again, I felt that feeling in my heart, like this is what I’m supposed to be doing. And so I always say to people, you know, I know, you have to use logic, of course, but also using your intuition like what feels aligned and right to me, that was probably the first time in my life that I actually let that voice be louder than the fear of what are they going to say I have to be perfect all that. So I did, I wound up pursuing the residency and living in that in my parents house with walking on eggshells and feeling like I couldn’t really, like tell them what was happening because I had to go to mid-year and I had to like, develop a CV for the first time and business cards and all of that. And I actually didn’t get any of my top five choices, because you have to pick five residencies that you want to match with. And I was like, devastated. And I didn’t know what to do. So I was talking to one of my professors at St. John’s one day, and she’s like, “oh, like, why don’t you try through the scramble. There’s a King’s Pharmacy in Brooklyn that I think I saw it didn’t match.” So I was like, let’s see if this goes. I went and interviewed and I got the call that I got this residency. But that was the beginning of the crumble of my life because that was when I got kicked out of my house. I my parents pretty much disowned me and you know, all of my stuff was thrown out onto the lawn- hangers, clothes, you know, everything that was my life, from my childhood room, where I was still living at home with them was literally purged onto the lawn. So all my neighbors were probably like, what is happening right now? So, I literally had to pick up the pieces of my life and start fresh like that was my rock bottom. At that time, I was taking anxiety medication. My life was so unworkable, because I wasn’t really speaking my truth. And all of these patterns that people pleasing, the perfectionism, the unworthiness that I had, it all kind of culminated into this moment where I was like, I’m choosing this, I’m choosing this new path. I don’t care how scary it is. And I remember looking up at the sky, and I just was like, it’s gonna be okay. I just had this feeling in my heart that even though my life was a mess, physically, everything was all over the lawn. And, you know, I couldn’t, I wasn’t even allowed back in the house. And I got fired from my dad’s pharmacy that day. So that was like one thing after the other. And by the way, it was like April of right when I was about to graduate pharmacy school. And so I was about to start a residency, I had two months left of pharmacy school, I still had to take my board exams. I had no job, I had not much money in a bank account, and I was living out of my car. And in that moment, like I said, I knew I was like, I can do this. I just had, I don’t know if it was God, if it was a strength, something within me, I just knew that I had made the right decision. And there had been so much bullying and abuse, and I was like, I’m done with this. So anyway, fast forward. And tell me when…

Tim Ulbrich  11:19

Yeah, good. I’ve got so many questions, but this is good. Finish your journey here. 

Dr. Christina Fontana  11:23

Yep. So So there’s so much more, you know, that was the beginning of my entrepreneurial journey really, was getting into that residency, because it really opened up my eyes to all of the different possibilities within pharmacy, and I, it was so stressful, I cried a lot, I had so much PTSD in my body now that I look back on it. But I don’t regret that decision of doing a residency because again, it opened up my eyes to like, I started teaching diabetes classes, I was going through Integrative Nutrition at the same time, and like healing my body of looking at the deeper root of disease and why people get sick. And so this journey led me to where I am now. And I don’t regret any single part of it, because it was so painful. But I turned that pain and alchemize did into why like the drive that I have now to help people. 

Tim Ulbrich  12:20

Yeah, as you’re is your sharing, and I really do appreciate your vulnerability here as I think that many people listening, you know, maybe will resonate with very specific parts of that, right, whether it’s, you know, an abuse part of the journey, or, you know, an eating disorder or some other trauma. But, you know, I think there’s pieces and parts of all of us that can relate to some part of that story. And what’s coming up for me is, like, where does that generative drive come from? Right? So when you think about all that you’ve been through, when you think about, you know, obviously the questions around am I loved? And you know, then being abandoned. And when you talk about your residency journey to me, you know, when I, when I think about, okay, you went through the scramble and I’m sure in your father’s eyes now that was a kind of a dagger of like, okay, now you’re choosing an option as the scramble, right? It’s like the last resort instead of this pathway, you know, seeing you would take and so my question is, where does that generative drive come from? Where do you attribute, you know, you choosing to go down that path? Right? So you know, I think in many abuse trauma situations, obviously, I’m not a counselor in any way, shape, or form, but you tend to think that often you see people stuck in those situations, because, you know, it’s, it’s harder to see the path out of it. And that becomes a new defined normal. And here, obviously, you talked about hitting that rock bottom in terms of, you know, getting thrown out of the house, and, you know, you chose choosing to go down this path anyways. And I almost felt as you were sharing, almost like this tug down an undefined path. And I’m curious of like, what is that pull? Like, what is that talk? What do you attribute to? Is that your is that your faith? Is that your “I just have this intuition”? Like, where, where does that come from?

Dr. Christina Fontana  14:09

I remember sitting on my bed one day meditating, because I like I said, I had so much anxiety from living in this house where I knew like my parents hate pretty much hated me, that my brother, and like, I guess I laugh to kind of cope with it now because I’m just like, I think back to how crazy it was. So please, like if you’re listening to this, please. No, I’m not. I laugh at my own situation, I guess because I’m just like, it was so crazy. But um, I remember sitting and meditating at the time because I was just trying anything to cope with this anxiety. And I felt this and I heard this voice so clearly say, “You like you need to get out of here.” Like, this needs, you need to leave. And so I guess I feel like that was really the first time that I felt that intuitive presence of God. You know, like I grew up Catholic, I kind of had a little bit of connection. But it wasn’t like, my dad was not a pastor or like, I didn’t really have that strong influence. But in those quiet moments, when I was with myself, my intuition started to speak. Because, you know, there’s so many fear influences that we have even now, with the news, people and expectations, parents, etc. So when you quiet that voice, and you really tune in, I started asking myself, like, what do I really want. And it was very scary, but it was that was that same feeling that I had back at the pharmacy. It was just this, it came from within, and it was just this boost of energy that I knew. It was, it was like, without a shadow of a doubt, I need to do this. And it was just, I think, too, probably the pain, like think about when someone has to make a decision, the pain was so bad, that I felt like I had to move. So like if you’re, if you’re in a bad relationship or a bad situation, eventually you get whittled down enough that it’s like, I’m done. That like F-it moment. So. 

Tim Ulbrich  16:12

And Christina, as you share, you know, you talked about several things like, you know, obviously, your your need for acceptance, and to be loved. You talked about your nervous system activation, you talked about, you know, your awareness of how emotions are being suppressed. You also talked about kind of the journey of not not condoning in any way, or you know, accepting any way the abuse, but understanding and having a perspective on that, as you now look back. Which all of those together, tell me you’ve been through a journey of inner work, of counseling, of i, if you wouldn’t mind, just sharing for a moment what that journey has looked like for you. Because I think for some that are listening that say, Oh, I’ve got a, you know, a part of my story, you know, that maybe I need to dig a little bit deeper, despite the pain, right, that can be there. And I just think the more that we can hear from others, and on some level, you know, normalize the work that needs to be done, you know, the healthier we can all be. So if you would mind sharing a little bit of, of your journey of processing some of the emotion and the pain that you went through? 

Dr. Christina Fontana  17:12

Yeah, absolutely. It it’s still a work in progress. Like there are I’m doing specifically nervous system work right now. But I had started off with traditional therapists, and that only got me so far. When I started doing the subconscious work, and I had hypnosis sessions, my anxiety went from like an eight to a two. And I started to say, okay, like, this is part of the breadcrumb trail of how I want to be helping people. So now that’s what I do. All of these tools that I’ve learned throughout the years, I now help people with. And someone I was I was working at a retreat one time, and somebody came up to me, they’re like, You should call it like rapid transformation, because people shift so quickly, because I, because I’m so intuitive. And I’ve developed that muscle so much within myself, I can look at someone and say, okay, and coach them and ask them these questions that are going to draw out of them. What needs to be shifted, because it’s all internal. Right? It’s the, it’s the layers, I call it multi dimensional healing. It’s the nervous system that’s holding the cellular memory of the trauma, it’s the patterns that you’ve come to cope with that trauma, people pleasing, perfectionism, overthinking, that’s all a nervous system response. So it’s the nervous system, all these patterns. And then there’s typically core wounds that are there like unworthiness, shame. And so that needs to be digested in order to allow that flow of emotion because, you know, I grew up in a very suppressive environment, and it doesn’t allow for you to tap into who you really are, the creativity, the gifts and that’s why I bring this work into helping entrepreneurs because if you’re suppressed, you’re not going to show up fully self expressed when you give a talk, when you go to put your message out there this work is so much of you know, the inner work, but also the practical strategy of how do I bring all of who I am to the table when I am speaking, so that I show up with power conviction. And that’s how you influence people because then they know you care, they see the passion that you have. And that’s how you start to create a domino effect of healing in the world. Which is really why I believe I’m here is at the root cause it’s to be a beacon of light for other people and that’s why I’m so vulnerable in my story. I’m like there’s nothing look in the crevices in the closet. There’s nothing in my closet like I will show you my husband because I want people to to know that they’re not alone and I want them to know there are tools out there that can help them. 

Tim Ulbrich  19:57

Yeah, I love how you described it as you know multi dimensional and the layers. You know, that’s been my own experience of just kind of slowly peeling back the onion and the layers. And I think as you do that. And I’m convinced it’s a lifelong journey. I don’t think the work ever ends. 

Dr. Christina Fontana  20:12

Yeah. 

Tim Ulbrich  20:13

But through that, you start to get a little bit closer, a little bit closer a little bit closer to who your authentic self is. Right. And that is that is the unique advantage of every one of us. There is one, Christina, there is one, Tim, you know, there’s one of whoever’s listening, and we’ve got an opportunity to really identify who is that? Who is that? And how can we help serve others. So with that in mind, let’s shift to talking more about your journey as an entrepreneur. And one of things you share on your website is that you, “Empower others to transform their lives, reveal their inner radiance and step into more energy, confidence and power.” So what what is the how behind that? Why? So how do you help people on that journey?

Dr. Christina Fontana  20:53

So it’s part of what we just talked about. So it’s that inner work. But it’s also the practical strategy of it. And now we’re going to talk about goal setting. So I’ll bring this up now. So structured flexibility, right. So like, if you think of a container, you need to have structure around something to hold the energy of it. So like, if I were to just say, I want to have a business, but there’s no structure or offer or clear place for somebody to land, then it’s kind of like having a leaky bucket. Yeah. So I look at, okay, let’s look at some of these patterns that you have that we can start shifting, as well as those practical strategies of how do we translate your gifts into gold. That’s one of my, like, my signature methodologies turn your gifts to gold, because again, I always show this this is like my new thing. I know that you everybody listening, I’ll describe what I’m holding up right now. So it is a diamond. And if you are following me on social media, you’ll see that I post about this, this is on my Instagram. This is who we are like I’m pregnant right now I’m 21 weeks pregnant, this child is going to come out pure, with all the gifts that it was born with. With it being brilliant, worthy, everything, its pristine. But then what happens is, over time, we learned that life isn’t safe, right in some way, whether it’s a trauma, or we get yelled at or punished, or whatever, whatever that might be. And little kids make meaning out of things. I’m bad. I’m unworthy, all of this. And so that’s what we’re carrying into our business. And people, it’s so unconscious, that that’s why we bring it to the conscious forefront and say, Hey, this is what’s showing up. So we can help you reveal more of that diamond, of the brilliance of who you came here to be. Because you’re most magnetic when you shine that light. And when you can help those people who are in your audience scrolling on Facebook, looking for the answers. That to me is true fulfillment. So the more that you can reveal that, and have these containers and by containers, I mean, like offers or the way that you tell your story in a way that’s compelling and draws people to you. That’s how you build a sustainable business. That’s, that’s my belief. Its just one perspective. 

Tim Ulbrich  23:24

Yeah, and I know you work with a lot of entrepreneurs, but for everyone listening, like this work is span spans everyone, right? So obviously, we’re talking about here and the framework of, you know, being able to approach your business and how you serve others and making sure that you know, what is unconscious becomes conscious, and we’re aware of how that might be limiting what we’re doing are holding us back. But, you know, for someone who’s at the front lines at a community pharmacy, or they’re a manager or administrator at a hospital, like, this work matters for everyone. It matters in your professional life and matters in your personal life. You know, you’re talking about some of the variables that as you know, kids growing up, we experienced these things, some of them might be a traumatic enough that we remember, but often they’re not. And I know that as a parent, like there are micro moments, I had one of them with my kids last night where, you know, after there’s an interaction, it’s like, oh, like, how was that perceived? How could that have been done differently? And now how can I, there’s mistakes are going to be made? That’s a part of life. But how do I learn from that? And how can I talk that out loud and process that with them as well? And they need to hear me out loud, say, like, I am sorry, you know, I shouldn’t have done X, Y, or Z. And I could have done this differently and they need to hear those things. And I don’t get it right a lot of the time! But this work matters as an employee, as an entrepreneur as a parent, as a spouse as a you know, father, mother, brothers it matters in every relationship that we have. And so I just love the vision of what you’re sharing one of these you have on your website, which really connected with me is you said “When we reconnect back to our true essence, remember who we really are we are limitless empowered, and we’re free.” 

Dr. Christina Fontana  25:03

Yep. 

Tim Ulbrich  25:03

So powerful, right. And that transcends so much of what we experienced every day if we’re able to get there. 

Dr. Christina Fontana  25:09

And I want to just really quickly talk about that, because that you hit on a really important point there with, you know, when when we have to cope with what’s not resolved within us, then it turns into, like, for me, it was, you know, drinking and numbing my emotions and staying busy and all of these coping mechanisms that disconnected me from myself. And so this process for me has been reconnecting back to my body, which, like, again, it’s uncomfortable. If you’ve experienced trauma, it’s so uncomfortable sometimes to go into that pain. And so oftentimes, people dissociate. And they’re like, how do I escape this? Like, can I just run away from this in any way possible vacations, whatever, whatever that coping mechanism is. But when you when you heal, that’s when you’re truly free. And I think that’s what a lot of people are seeking is through those mechanisms, like, I just feel better. 

Tim Ulbrich  26:06

So right, that’s right. Yeah. And I think for you know, I’ll speak to this for a moment, just because this has been my own journey. I know, when I was doing some of the work that I’m doing now, one of my initial knee jerk reactions was like, I had a great childhood, like, there is no trauma there. You know, number one, all of us have experienced something, the magnitude of it, the significance of it can be different. But there, we all have our own journey. And, you know, I think sometimes that we can confuse things like, you know, I was provided for effectively, you know, my parents helped support me, but there could be emotional gaps there, there could be emotional gaps, and you know, how things were communicated or not communicated. And this is not about, you know, digging up things that’s going to lead to, you know, judgment and, you know, disgruntment towards others, right, I think part of this journey, is to really have peace with that. But you know, so much of that, the more to your point, the more that we can help move from being unconscious to conscious, once we’re aware of it, you know, and once we can tap into our emotions and start to slow down and say, Okay, in this moment, I’m noticing myself feeling angry, I’m feeling fear, I’m feeling shame, I’m feeling guilt, whatever it be, and then connecting that with whatever interaction we’re having. I know what I often realize is whoa, like the emotional reaction, as real as it is, is way out of whack with the reality of the situation. Okay, Where’s that coming from? Like, why am I why am I feeling so much anxiety and fear over something that went, I can just step back and kind of untether you know, myself and sort of observe like, oh, Tim, that’s interesting. Like, your heart rates increased rapidly, you have shortness of breath, like you’re, you’re, you’re becoming really tense, like, what’s all that? About? What, what’s behind that? And those are, those are tools, those are things that we can use everyday in our interactions that we have with others. 

Dr. Christina Fontana  27:54

Right. Exactly. And the brain loves context, right? So like the nervous system feel safe, when we have some kind of context around, “oh okay, like, this is what’s happening.” Then you can use whatever tool to regulate and be with that part that is probably a past part of you. That’s like, hey, I need support, hey, I wasn’t supported in this way, or whatever it might be. So yeah. 

Tim Ulbrich  28:21

So one of the things I’ve shared before on this show and with others, as well, is that I feel like parenting and entrepreneurship, for me have exposed so many areas of weakness or opportunities for growth, however, we want to say it. 

Dr. Christina Fontana  28:37

Yeah!

Tim Ulbrich  28:38

And so many opportunities for self reflection that I’m not sure, you know, would have been there to the same degree without it right? When you’re when you’re talking about young kids, when you’re talking about business, there are things that stretch challenge, get out of your control, in a way like for me, I was very good at like keeping things in a box, and being able to kind of control and maneuver around it so that I didn’t have to experience the uncomfortable feelings and the things.  Well guess what? When kids come to the equation, when business come to the equation, like that box gets blown up, sometimes they really, like for me exposed like, oh, wow, like when I don’t have control of a situation. Like that’s where I see, you know, a lot of things go awry. And and that’s an interesting discovery, like, well, what’s behind that? And why why is that there? So my question for you is, you know, as you think about your journey, in business, or in tune to be as a parent, like, what have you learned about yourself? What has been the most significant one or two things that you’ve learned about yourself through not only your own journey of healing, but also through building and growing a business? 

Dr. Christina Fontana  29:36

Oh, my goodness, when I think of this analogy, when you have a business and you’re growing it, it’s like a mirror. Everything that needs to come up, that’s your client interactions, team interactions is going to come up like you said, I love that analogy. You’re like the box blows up because it’s like, you can’t hide. You’re facing off with yourself. And yeah, I would agree 100% with the control, like for me on worthiness came up control, people pleasing all of those protective parts that just wanted to keep, like, as a child, I just wanted to be safe. And I never felt safe in my house because it was so chaotic, there was a lot of abuse going on. And so I learned to shut down. And that was part of my coping mechanism, like I said, and I think, through control, and my, my dad was very, both my parents were very controlling. That’s what helped me feel like, oh, I have some sort of safety, right? So it was kind of that dynamic that still plays out. And I’m like, I have to catch myself. And I’m like, okay, and I again, like, that’s one of the layers for me that I have to continually work on. And that’s why I have continuous support coaches, different people that I hire, because I’m like, hey, I need, I need to be witnessed in this, I need to be held in this very uncomfortable situation. But at the same time, like even, you know, currently, like, in the past few months, I’ve had some situations where it really stretched me and I’ve never experienced this before. But from a higher perspective, I always come back to okay, what is God trying to teach me through this? Because my character is being strengthened through this. And so I feel the emotion, but then I also say, Okay, what am I actually learning here? And that, to me, is, is important for the integration process of like, I’m not just going through this to feel pain, I’m actually alkalizing something within myself from a past version, or whatever it is, that’s helping me become a higher version of myself, you know? 

Tim Ulbrich  31:48

Yeah. And I think that integration part of the journey is so important, right? There’s obviously the feeling of the emotions, and you know, being more aware of that, and how is that impacting, you know, the relationships and things that are happening each and every day? But then what’s the integration? You know, and sometimes that’s not in the moment thing, at least speaking for myself, sometimes that’s, you know, really leaning into the curiosity, as I’ve alluded to a couple different times, and then through that curiosity, and through that self awareness, and through kind of untethering yourself in that experience, it’s okay, what, what is the integration part of this? And what is there to be learned? And how can I grow? I think that how can I grow is a good transition and segue into setting big goals. We’re getting ready to come up on the New Year, which is a time that people often look at the mirror and say, Hey, what are some things that I want to focus on? What what has been the year that’s about to end? What what do we want to shift? And how do we want to grow into the new year? And before we talk about some of the strategy and X’s and O’s for how you approach goal setting, or how you approach this with your clients as well. I want to get just your general thoughts and recommendations on how you might help someone or encourage them to get in the right mindset before they get into the goal setting. Right, the work before the work, if you will. But yeah, I think so much of the goal setting exercise, I say this about the financial plan where we can work on X’s and O’s, we can develop a retirement plan, we can develop a debt repayment, we can do all these things. But if we’re not in the right mindset around, like, why do we care about this topic of money? What’s the goal? What’s our relationship with money, all of these bigger types of things, those X’s and O’s are only going to go so far. So I think similarly here on the goal setting, there’s this important step of getting in the right mindset under which we’re then thinking about how we set goals. So what are your What are your thoughts there? 

Dr. Christina Fontana  33:35

Yeah, so I think getting in the right nervous system state is even a deeper level, because when we’re in fight or flight, this prefrontal cortex is not active. So this is where our creative solutions come from, our strategic thinking, our critical thinking, and so I would always encourage and this I do this across the board with all of my clients, align the energy first. So looking at your nervous system, doing some of those exercises, but also really moving from, to what feels pleasure, like like moving from the mind of like, oh, like, How much money do I have whatever. Ask your heart and move into the body and say, What would feel really exciting for me? and I’m actually going to say this out loud because I want to, I want to commit to this. Even though I’m having a child next year, I saw somebody who had this he has a list. He’s really in a very ambitious in my audience, he’s not a pharmacist, but he was committed to speaking to 100 audiences in 2023. And he’s like at the bottom of the list. And I thought to myself, I want to do that I want to commit whether it’s through a Facebook live whatever it is Instagram speaking opportunity. I’m putting it out there. So I would love to have that as a goal so that for me feels juicy, alive. Pleasure lead, like yes! This is something about impact that I really want to move. And so from that vision, then you can obviously go into the more like practical planning pieces of it. But also, it’s like that structured flexibility, like not being too rigid, where it’s like the gripping, but allowing that co creative force of God, the universe, whatever you want to call it, like the surrender piece, because we can only control so much. Yeah. But when you when you embody that version of yourself, like tapping into the energy of this is what I want this is who would I have to be to achieve that goal? Because there’s usually an evolution or a next version of yourself, right? Maybe a higher version of yourself? What would that be? And feeling into that frequency? I recommend this to my clients to just even for five minutes, every single day, because, according to quantum physics, we’re always attracting based upon our thoughts and our electromagnetic signature from our heart. Yeah. So that’s what we attract. What we constantly think about what we’re constantly feeling. So yeah, that’s a whole other topic. 

Tim Ulbrich  36:13

It’s a good one, there’s a lot of good resources out there, you know, for for people that want to learn more about that as well. But I think, you know, what you shared about the pleasure lead really resonates with with me, right, because I think for a lot of pharmacists, you know, I’ll speak for myself, but I suspect many may feel the same as well. You know, high achiever tend to want to please others, you know, want to develop these, you know, goals that may have expectations tied to others, and really slowing down and getting out of our head getting into our bodies to really take the space and time to say, Does this resonate with me? Is this an expectation of someone else? Is this really authentic to me or not. And that really requires your point, getting in the right state of our nervous system. I’ve been in these exercises with my small group of men where we meet, we meet once a week for two hours, and we kick off our meeting, typically, with one of the men leading a 15-20 minute type of meditation exercise, and I can consistently now almost have gotten to the point where I will show up, and it feels like there’s an uneven distribution of weight of my head to my body. Because I’ve been throughout the day, I’m just programmed, like through, you know, repetition, experience, whatever, that if I’m not careful and don’t slow down, I’m like, I will live so much of the day in my head, that I can actually feel like the physical exhaustion of that in my head, and really, to be able to slow down and like get into my body. And typically, by the end of that meeting, like I can actually feel like the shift of the stress and the weight in my body. And I’ve actually described it to the guys my group that like it feels like if I close my eyes, sometimes it feels like my head is like in a giant space like disproportionately weighted to the rest of my body. But it’s just such a good reminder of like slowing down, like, what are the exercises, what are the habits, one of the behaviors can really get ourselves into checking in with our body. And I think aligning that with goal setting is so important, right? Because I think if we’re not careful, like Are these your goals? Are these someone else’s goals? And even if they’re your own derived goals, maybe not at an expectation of others, does it actually resonate with you? Right? So you gave that example, which I think is a really good one, because someone else might see that and say, oh, I want to do that too, but not because it really resonates. But because they’re like, Oh, that’d be cool to speak 100 times, like, that’d be cool, right? There could be some pride there, there could be some ego there, right? You know, but the way you described as like, that really resonated with you, internally, right, for whatever reason, I think it comes full circle to where you started your story, which was, you know, early in your life, identifying that you really have a desire to want to help other people, right, that, to me, ties very directly to that. So I think getting in the right state of mind, you know, getting out of our head, making sure that it’s a pleasure lead processes, is so important. Now, I want to get a little more detail from you on this concept of structured flexibility. Because this has been my experience where I’ve gone through goal setting in many different formats. And sometimes I come up with these very comprehensive, you know, plans that seem great, you get the dopamine rush, and then two weeks in, you’re like, oh, my gosh, this is exhausting. What was I thinking I’m going in 12 directions, I’ve got every domain of wellness of, you know, defined with five different sub goals. And then I’ve been on the other end where, you know, it’s too loose, it’s maybe not motivating enough or not structured enough. And I do think there’s a middle ground here, which, which I believe is what you’re referring to the structured flexibility. So tell us more about what that looks like for you. 

Dr. Christina Fontana  39:38

Yeah, I’ll just even given a concrete example of a launch. Like I just did a Pivot to Profit three days, you know, it’s a client converting workshop, like I bring everybody in, I teach them, you know, it’s like a really detailed PDF and I’m like, Okay, this is what I’m going to do. I’m going to do this three day event, deliver tons of value, and then I’m going to I’m share about one of my programs. As I’m going through the launch, I’m like, oh, I want to do a trick or treat giveaway. So that came in, like, being open to  the downloads that come through, like I call them downloads. It’s like that divine kind of intuition. And so I added that in, and maybe I took something out. It’s kind of like, like cooking. It’s like, oh, do I like my food spicy. Or maybe I won’t add so much of this, but I’ll add this. So I think it’s being a little bit flexible with number one, like those components, but also not being so rigid of like, I need five clients from this launch. Like, it’s it for me, it comes back to and you talks about that word, ego, I really try. And it’s a constant thing. I’m like, Okay, I’m releasing, I know that this is my ego talking right now, that’s wanting this…outcome, I’m going to let that go. And I’m going to open up to whatever the highest outcome is going to be. And I’m going to show up and serve and give 110% and do this plan. Be flexible, you know, implement those downloads, like I said, but also having that openness of, I wonder what else could show up, that it doesn’t have to be so rigid?

Tim Ulbrich  41:20

No, that makes sense. And I think that very concrete example you just gave, you know, related to the launches is a good one, right? Because I think so often, not only can we adopt other people’s goals, but we can set a goal. And then speaking for myself, I’m so structured and rigid to that goal, that I lose any of the openness and flexibility to you know, okay, might there be a different idea, a different pathway, or even feedback from audience or, you know, different things that are coming in that says, okay, my flexible enough to be able to pivot and move in real time. And usually, if I develop a plan, it’s like, this is the plan, right? We’re going with, and I’m gonna see it…. which there’s value in that, like, you know, and there’s, there’s real value that can come from kind of that, you know, stick-to-itiveness and wanting to see it through and being resilient, but also adding some flexibility to that. 

Dr. Christina Fontana  42:04

I’m laughing because I’m thinking like, that’s how I’m like, oh, like, I’m gonna plan…..with this baby and like, we’re gonna get the … and I’m like, I’m sure like, the my like, whatever is gonna blow up my plan, but that’s okay.

Tim Ulbrich  42:18

Well, this has been fantastic. And I’m so grateful for your contributions to our community, your vulnerability and sharing your story. I think many are going to find that inspiring, insightful, and maybe on some level, motivating to do some more self discovery and their journey. Also appreciate your your feedback that you gave on you know, how we can be thinking about setting goals and sharing about your entrepreneural journey. Where is the best place that our listeners can go, Christina, to learn more about your work and to follow your journey along the way as well? 

Dr. Christina Fontana  42:46

Yeah, so my website is pharmacistcoach.com. And then from there, you’ll find all of my social media handles my group Monetize your Magic. Everything like my Instagram is @thepharmacistcoach so I would love to connect and feel free like I literally am an open door. So if you want to share Hey, I loved what you said in the episode or if you have questions, please reach out I’m happy to support.

Tim Ulbrich  43:12

Awesome well, we will connect in the show notes to social media, to the website pharmacistcoach.com, as well as your email [email protected] If people want to reach out directly.So, Christina, thank you so much for coming on the show and wishing you an awesome 2024.

Tim Ulbrich  43:27

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published.  Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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$750*

Loans

≥150K = $750* 

≥50K-150k = $300


Fixed: 4.89%+ APR (with autopay)

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$500*

Loans

≥50K = $500

Variable: 4.99%+ (with autopay)*

Fixed: 4.96%+ (with autopay)**

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