YFP 384: Beyond Salary: Negotiating Your Value in the Workplace


YFP Co-Founders Tim Baker and Tim Ulbrich discuss essential negotiation skills inspired by Chris Voss’s book, Never Split The Difference, covering key strategies to boost your financial plan, mindset, and confidence.

Episode Summary

In this episode, YFP Co-Founders Tim Baker and Tim Ulbrich have a valuable conversation on negotiation—an essential skill that impacts not only finances but also mindset and confidence. Inspired by Chris Voss’s book, Never Split The Difference, Tim and Tim explore negotiation techniques drawn from Voss’s experience as a former FBI hostage negotiator and break down why negotiation is vital for your financial plan, key goals, and practical strategies for navigating each step.

About Today’s Guests

Tim Baker is the Co-Founder and Director of Financial Planning at Your Financial Pharmacist. Founded in 2015, YFP is a fee-only financial planning firm and connects with the YFP community of 12,000+ pharmacy professionals via the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast podcast, blog, website resources and speaking engagements. 

Tim attended the United States Military Academy majoring in International Relations and branching Armor. After his military career, he worked as a logistician with a major retailer and a construction company. After much deliberation, Tim decided to make a pivot in his career and joined a small independent financial planning firm in 2012. In 2016, he launched his own financial planning firm Script Financial and in 2019 merged with Your Financial Pharmacist. Tim now lives in Columbus, Ohio with his wife (Shay), three kids (Olivia, Liam and Zoe), and dog (Benji).

Tim Ulbrich is the Co-Founder and CEO of Your Financial Pharmacist. Founded in 2015, YFP is a fee-only financial planning firm and connects with the YFP community of 15,000+ pharmacy professionals via the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast podcast, blog, website resources and speaking engagements. To date, YFP has partnered with 75+ organizations to provide personal finance education.

Tim received his Doctor of Pharmacy degree from Ohio Northern University and completed postgraduate residency training at The Ohio State University. He spent 9 years on faculty at Northeast Ohio Medical University prior to joining Ohio State University College of Pharmacy in 2019 as Clinical Professor and Director of the Master’s in Health-System Pharmacy Administration Program.

Tim is the host of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast which has more than 1 million downloads. Tim is also the co-author of Seven Figure Pharmacist: How to Maximize Your Income, Eliminate Debt and Create Wealth. Tim has presented to over 200 pharmacy associations, colleges, and groups on various personal finance topics including debt management, investing, retirement planning, and financial well-being.

Key Points from the Episode

  • Importance of Negotiation in Financial Planning [0:00]
  • Introduction to Negotiation and Its Role in Financial Planning [1:23]
  • The Process and Importance of Negotiation [6:45]
  • Employer Expectations and Employee Responsibilities in Negotiation [13:07]
  • Strategies for Effective Negotiation [17:09]
  • Counteroffers and Leveraging Non-Salary Terms [32:18]
  • Tools and Techniques for Negotiation [37:19]
  • Applying Negotiation Strategies in Financial Planning [46:54]
  • Conclusion and Final Thoughts [47:08]

Episode Highlights

“Negotiation is really a process of discovery. It really shouldn’t be viewed as a battle. It’s really a process of discovery.” – Tim Baker [5:58]

“I think there is often a sentiment and I know I’ve felt it myself, where, you know what, I’m glad to have a position. I’m glad to be making a good income. But that can be true, and you still can be a good person, and you still can negotiate and advocate for yourself and the value you bring to the organization.” – Tim Ulbrich [6:20]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich  00:00

Hey everybody. Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the Yfp Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. Negotiation. That’s what we’re talking about today, an important skill that many of us were not taught, and one that can move the needle significantly, yes, financially, but also in terms of mindset and confidence. One of my favorite resources on this topic is the book never split the difference by Chris Voss. I first heard this book on a podcast interview several years ago where Chris was demonstrating his quote late night DJ voice, which is one of the fun techniques he describes in that book. Now, if you haven’t read the book before. In addition to listening to today’s episode, check it out and make sure to do the audio version. It’s fantastic and really drives home the examples used throughout. Chris is a former FBI international hostage negotiator who took what he learned from high stakes negotiation and brought it to us for everyday use. Now, considering that effective negotiation can have a big impact on your financial plan. This week, we’re hitting replay on an episode that Tim and I recorded back in August of 2020 during the show, we discussed why negotiation is important your financial plan, the goals of negotiation and tips and strategies for different parts of the negotiation process that you can implement in your own negotiation. Make sure to listen all the way through as I’m confident in saying, there will be a positive return on your time investment. One last thing, unlike traditional financial planning firms, our team of certified financial planners at Yfp is experience in helping our clients through negotiations, whether that be negotiating within an organization for a new position or to increase salary or for someone looking for a new job, if we can help with your negotiation, head on over your financial pharmacist.com click on book a discovery call so that we can learn more about your situation and see whether or not our services are the right fit for You. All right, let’s jump into our conversation on effective negotiation. Tim Baker, welcome back to the show.

Tim Baker  02:08

Yeah, happy to be here. How’s it going?

Tim Ulbrich  02:09

Tim, it’s going excited to talk negotiation something we discuss a lot, a lot in presentations, a lot. I know that you discuss with clients as a part of the financial plan, but we haven’t addressed it directly on the show before. So I’m excited that we get a chance to dig into this topic. And we know that negotiation can carry a lot of power, and can be used across the board, really, in life, right? Could be negotiating terms for a new or existing job, position, buying a car, buying a house, negotiating with your kids or spouse, kidding, not not kidding, as we’ll talk about here in a little bit, so we’re going to focus predominantly on salary negotiation, but really, these techniques can be applied to many areas of the financial plan and really life as a whole. So Tim, I know that for you, negotiation is a key piece of the financial plan, and you and our CFPs over at Yfp talk about negotiation in the context of financial planning, which I would say is probably not the norm of the financial planning industry and services. So let’s start with this. Why is negotiation such an important piece of the financial plan?

Tim Baker  03:14

Yeah, so I think you know, if we, if we look at why, if peace mission, you know why? If he’s mission is to empower pharmacists to achieve financial freedom. So I think the building blocks of that really is kind of what we do day in and day out with with clients at Yfp plan. And what I what I typically, or the way that we typically approach a financial plan, is we really want to help the client grow and protect their income, which is the lifeblood of the financial plan. Without income, nothing moves. But we know that probably more importantly than that is grow and protect the balance sheet, the net worth, which means increase in assets efficiently and decrease in liabilities efficiently and ultimately moving the net worth number in the right direction. So those are, you know, both quantitative things, but then qualitatively, we want to make sure that we’re keeping all the goals in mind. So grow and protect income and net worth while keep the goals in mind. So to me, that’s, that’s our jam, you know. So you know when I when I say, you know, when somebody asked me a question, like we do the ask a wife, pcfp, and I’m like, I always say, Well, it depends. A lot of it depends, really, on those, those foundational like, where are we at with the balance sheet, and where do we want to go? Meaning, what? What are our goals? What’s our why? What’s a, what’s the life plan? You know, what’s a wealthy life for you? And how can we support that with the financial plan? So to go back to your question, you know, my belief is that the income is a is a big part of that. And you know, what I found with working with many, many pharmacists is sometimes, and sometimes pharmacists are not just, you know, not great at advocating for themselves. You know, most of the people that I talk to, you know, when we talk about salary negotiation, they’re like, um. You know, I just thankful I have a job, and I’m in agreement with that. But, you know, sometimes a little bit of negotiation and having some of the skills that we’ll talk about today to better advocate for yourself is is important, and it’s in a lot of this stuff is not necessarily just for salary. It can be for a lot of different things. But to me, what I what I saw as a need here. You know, same thing, like most financial planners don’t walk, walk you through kind of home purchase and what that looks like, because most financial planners are working with people in their 50s, 60s and 70s. So a lot that was a need for a lot of our clients were like, Hey, Tim, I’m buying this house. I don’t really know where to start. So we, we, you know, provide some education and some recommendations and advice around that. So same thing with salary. It’s like I kept seeing like, well, maybe, you know, maybe I, you know, I took the job too quickly, or, you know, I didn’t advocate for myself. So that’s really where we want to provide some education and advice, again, to have a better, better position from it, from an income, income perspective, yeah. 

Tim Ulbrich  05:58

I think it’s a great tool to have in your tool bag, you know? And I think, as we’ll talk about here, you know, the goal is not to be an expert negotiator. There’s lots of resources that are out there that can help with this and make it tangible and practical, one of which will draw a lot of the information today. I know that you talk with clients, a resource I love, never split the difference by Chris Voss, but I’m glad you mentioned. You know, I think there is often a sentiment. I know I felt it myself, where, you know what, I’m glad to have a position. I’m glad to be making a good income. But that can be true, and you still can be a good person, and you still can negotiate and advocate for yourself and the value you bring to the organization. Yeah, so I hope folks will hear that and not, not necessarily think that negotiation is bad, and as we’ll talk about here in a moment, I think really can have a significant impact when you think about it as it relates to earnings over your career and what those additional earnings could mean. So Tim, break it down for us. What is negotiation? And really thinking further, why is it important?

Tim Baker  06:57

Yeah, so, so negotiation, you know, it’s really a process of discovery. You know, it really shouldn’t be viewed as as a battle. It’s really a process of discovery. It’s kind of that awkward conversation that you’re you should be obligated to have, because, you know, if you, you know, if you don’t want to advocate for yourself professionally, who will, and maybe you have a good mentor or something like that. But to me, the the negotiation again, is really to discover, you know, what, what you want, and kind of what you’re the counterpart you know, which might be a boss or a hiring manager or something like that. And it’s an it’s really important, because, you know, settling for a lower salary can have really major financial consequences, both both immediately and down the road. And you know, you you typically raises that you receive are typically based on a percentage of their salary. So we’re, hey, we’re going to give you a, you know, 3% raises here, a 5% raise if you start off with a salary that you’re not happy with. You know that then obviously, that’s, that’s a problem. Accrue less in retirement savings. So that TSP, that 401, K, 403, B, again, you typically are going to get some type of match in a lot of cases, and then you’re going to put a percent in. So again, that could potentially be lower, but it’s, it is. It’s not just about salary. It can be, you know, I think another mistake that sometimes people make is that they’ll say, oh, wow, I was making, you know, 125 and, you know, I’m taking a job that’s paying me 135 and they take a major step back on some of the non salary, things like benefits and flex scheduling and time off and things like that. But you know, you really want to make sure that the compensation package that you have, you know you’re happy with, because being overpaid, being underpaid, really can make you feel resentful over the long run. So you want to make sure that you’re, you know, again, you know, right now, we’re filming this in the midst of a pandemic, and you know the economy and the job market is tough, but you know, you still want to, you still want to advocate for yourself and make sure you’re getting the, you know, the best compensation package that that you can.

Tim Ulbrich  08:56

As we’ll talk about here in a little bit, I think If we frame this differently than maybe our understanding or preconceived beliefs. You know, you mentioned it’s not a battle, you know. I think the goal is that you’re trying to come to an agreement or an understanding. And as we’ll talk about here, many employers are likely expecting this, and that number, in terms of those that are expecting versus those that are actually engaging in the conversation, from an employee standpoint, is very different. So I think that might help give us confidence to be able to initiate some of those. And we’ll talk about strategies to do that. I do want to give one example, though. Tim, real quick, you mentioned, you know, obviously, if somebody earns less and they receive smaller raises, or they accrue less in retirement savings, that can have a significant impact. And and I went down the rabbit hole, prepping for this episode of just looking at a quick example of this, where you have two folks that, let’s say they both start working at the age of 28 they retire at their 65 so same starting point, same retirement age. Let’s assume they get a 3% cost of living adjustment every year for their career. Just to keep it simple, you. The only difference here is that one starts at 100k and one starts at 105k so because of either you know what, what they asked for negotiations, whatever be the case, one starts $5,000 greater than the other. And if you play this out, same starting age, same ending age, same cost of living adjustments, one starts at a higher point when it’s all said and done, one individual has about $300,000 more of earnings than the other. And this, of course, does not include differences that you’d also have, because a higher salary, if you have a match, that would increase, that would compound, that would grow, if you were to switch jobs, you’re at a better point of now negotiating from a higher salary. All other benefits that aren’t included. But the significance of the starting point, I think, is something to really look at those numbers that often where you start can inform where you’re going, not only from cost of living adjustments, but also future employment, right? So we know that where you start, if you get a 3% raise, it’s of course, gonna be based off that number. You decide to leave that employer and you go to another one, what do they ask you? How much did you make? You’re using that number. So that starting point is so critical, and I hope that new practitioners might even find some confidence in that, to be able to engage in discussions knowing how significant those numbers can be over a career. So in that one example, that starting point is a difference of about $300,000 Crazy, right? 

Tim Baker  11:24

When you look at over a long time period, yeah, it’s not, it’s nuts. And I’d pay the devil’s advocate, you know, on the other side of that is that, you know, again, so much, just like everything else with with the financial plan, you can’t look at it, you know, in a vacuum, we’ve had clients, yeah, take a lot less money, and really was because of the the student loans, and how that would affect their strategy in terms of forgiveness and things like that. So, yeah, it is multifactorial. It’s definitely something that it should really be examined. And I think again, when you look at the overall context of the financial plan, but it to your point, Tim, that that start in salary, and really you know how you negotiate throughout the course of your career is going to be utterly important. And you know, again, what we say is, with, you know, we, we kind of downplay the income, because I think, you know, so much of what’s kind of taught us, like, oh, six figure salary, you’re you’ll be okay. And that’s not true. But then, you know it is true that it is the lifeblood of the financial plan. So I think if you have a plan and you’re intentional with what you’re doing, that’s where you can really start, you know, making moves with regard to your financial outlook,

Tim Ulbrich  12:26

yeah, and I’m glad you know you said that about salary shouldn’t be looked at in a silo. I mean, just to further that point, you you’ve alluded to it already, these numbers don’t matter. If there’s other variables that are non monetary that matter more, right? Whether that be time off or satisfaction in the workplace, opportunities that you have feelings that will come. I mean, the whole list of things that you can’t necessarily put a number to. I mean, I would argue if, if those are really important, you’ve got to weigh those against, you know, whatever this number would be, and there’s a certain point where the difference in money is it worth it? You know, if there’s other variables that are involved, which, which, usually there are, hopefully we can get both right salary and and non salary items. Yes. So interesting stats about negotiation. I’ve heard you present before on this topic, but I’d like you to share with our audience in terms of managers that are expecting hires to negotiate, versus those that do talk us through some of those as I think it will help us frame and maybe change our perception on employers expecting it and our willingness to engage in these conversations.

Tim Baker  13:34

Yeah, and I really need to cite, to cite this one. And I believe, I believe this first stat comes from Sherm, which is the Society for Human Resource Management. So I think this is, like the biggest association for, like HR and human resource personnel in the country. And the stat that that I use is that, you know, 99% of hiring managers expect prospective hires to negotiate. So if you think about that, you know, and you know, the overwhelming majority expect, you know, you the perspective hire to negotiate, and they build their initial offers as such. So, you know, the example, you know, I did the clients, is like, hey, you know, we have, you know, we have a position that we could pay, you anywhere from you know, 110,000 to 130,000 knowing that you know, Tim, if I’m offering this job to you, knowing that you’re probably going to negotiate with me, I’m going to offer it to you for 110 knowing that I have a little bit of wiggle room if you kind of come back with a counter offer. But what a lot of a lot of my clients, you know, or people do that I talk with is they’ll just say, Yes, I found a job. Crappy, crappy job market, you know, happy to get started, ready to get started. And there’s and they’re, they’re either, you know, overly enthusiastic to accept a job, or they’re just afraid that a little bit of negotiation would would, you know, hurt their, yeah, you know, hurt their outlook. So. So with that in mind is that you, you know the the offers, I think, are built in a way that you know you should, you should be negotiating and trying to, again, advocate for yourself.

Tim Ulbrich  15:09

Yeah, and so if people are presenting positions often, you know, with with a range and salary, expecting negotiation, I hope that gives folks, you know, some confidence and okay, that’s probably expected, and maybe shift some of the perception away from this whole thing could fall apart, which it could right at any given point in time, especially depending on the way you conduct yourself in that negotiation, which I think is really, really important to consider. But I think what we want to try to avoid, Tim, back to a comment you made earlier, is any resentment, right as well. I mean, if we think about this from a relationship standpoint. We want the employee to feel valued, and we want the employer to have a shot at retaining this individual long term, right? So it’s a two way, two way relationship,

Tim Baker  15:50

And it kind of, it kind of comes up to where, you know, we were talking about, what is, you know, what is the goal of negotiation? And really, the goal of negotiation is, is to come to some type of agreement. Yeah, the problem, the problem with that is, is that people are involved in this, and we as people are emotional beings. So if we feel like that, we’re being, you know, we’re treated unfairly, or we don’t feel safe and secure, or if we’re not in control of the conversation, you know, our emotions can get the best of us. So that’s that’s that’s important. So there again, there’s some techniques that you can, you know, utilize to kind of mitigate that. But you know, to allude to your point about, you know, negotiating the fear to kind of, you know, potentially mess up the deal. You know, there’s a stat that says 32% don’t negotiate because they’re too worried about losing the job offer. Yeah, I know Tim, like we can attest to this, because, you know, with our growth at Yfp, we’ve, we’ve definitely done some, some human resource in use that as a verb, and hiring and things like that of late. And I gotta say that, you know, the I think that some of this can be unfounded, just because there’s, there’s just so much, you know, blood, sweat and tears that goes into fire, you know, to fight finding the right people, to kind of surround, you know, yourself with, and bring into an organization that, to me, a little bit of back and forth is not going to ultimately lose the job. So typically, most, most jobs, there’s, you know, interview, you know, obviously there’s, there’s an application process, there’s interviews, there’s second interviews, there’s maybe on site visits, there’s kind of, you know, looking at all the candidates and then extending offers. If you get to that, that offer stage, you’re, you’re you’re pretty, you know, they’ve identified you as they’re the, you’re the person that they want. So, you know, sometimes a little bit of back and forth is not going to, you know, derail any such deal. So that’s, it’s really, really important to understand that, yeah, and

Tim Ulbrich  17:45

As the employer, I mean, we’ve all heard about the costs and statistics around retention. So as an employer, when I find that person, I want to retain them. That’s my that’s my goal. Right now, I want to find good talent on a retain good talent. So I certainly don’t want somebody being resentful about, you know, the work that they’re doing, the pay that they have. And so I think if we can work some of that out before beginning and come to an agreement, it’s a good fit for us, good fit for them, I think it’s also going to help the benefit of the, hopefully the long term relationship of that engagement. So it’s one thing to say, we should be doing it. It’s another thing to say, Well, how do we actually do this? Well, you know, what are some tips and tricks for negotiation? So I thought it’d be helpful if we could walk through some of the stages of negotiation, and through those stages we can talk as well as beyond that, what are some actual strategies to negotiation? Again, another shout out to never split the difference by Chris Voss. I think he does an awesome job of teaching these strategies in a way that really helped them come alive and are in our memorable Yeah. So, Tim, let’s talk about the the first stage, the interview stage, and what are some strategies that that those listening can take when it comes to negotiation in this stage.

Tim Baker  18:56

Yeah? So, so I kind of, when I, when I present, you know, these concepts to a client. I kind of said that the, you know, the four stages of the of negotiation are fairly, are fairly vanilla, you know. And the first one is the, you know, that interview. So when you get that interview, you know, what I say is, you know, typically you want to talk, talk less, listen more and learn more. Typically, the person that is talking the most is, is, is not in control. The conversation, the one that’s listening and answering, asking good questions, is in control. And I kind of, I kind of think back to, you know, some of our recent hires, and, you know, the people that we identify as, like, top candidates, I’m like, Man, their interviews went really well. And when I actually think, think back and slow down, it’s, it’s really, I think that they went really well, because there’s, it’s really that person asking good questions, and then, and then me just talking, and and, and that’s, and that’s like the perception, so in that, in that case, like the, you know, the candidate was asking us good questions, and we’re like, yeah, these, this was a great interview, because I’d like to hear myself talk, or I just get really excited. About, you know, what we’re doing at Yfp. So I think if you can really, you know, focus on your counterpart, focus on the organization, you know, whether it’s the hospital or whatever, whatever it is, and learn, and then the, you know, and then really pivot to the value that you bring. I think that’s going to be important, you know, most important. So, you know, understanding, you know, what, what some of their maybe pain points are, whether it’s retention or, you know, maybe some type of, you know, care issue, or whatever that may be, you know, you can kind of use that to your advantage as you’re as you’re kind of going through the different, you know, stages of negotiation, but the more that the other person talks, you know, the better. I would say, you know, in the interview stage, you know, one of the things that often comes up, you know, that can come off fairly soon, is the question about salary. And, you know, sometimes that is, you know, it’s kind of like a time saving. So it’s a Hey, Tim, you know, what are you looking for in salary? If you throw out a number that’s way too high, like, I’m not even gonna, you know, waste my time. And what I tell clients is, like you typically, you want to, and we’ll talk about anchoring. You really want to, do? You really want to avoid, you know, throwing, throwing a number out and for a variety of reasons. So one of the deflections you could use is, hey, I appreciate the question, but I’m really trying to figure out if I’d be a good fit for your organization. You know, we let’s talk about, you know, negotiate, or let’s talk about salary when the time comes. Or the other, the other piece of it is, it’s just, you are not, you’re not in the business of offering yourself a job. And what I mean by that is it’s, it’s their job to basically provide an offer. So, you know, hey, my current employer, you know, doesn’t really allow me to kind of reveal that kind of information. What did you have in mind? Or we know that pharmacy is a small business, and I’m sure your budget is, you know, is reasonable. What did you have in mind? So at the end of the day, it’s, it’s their job to extend the offer, not you, to kind of negotiate your against yourself, which can happen, you know, I had a, I had a, we signed on a client here at Yfp planning yesterday, and we were talking about negotiation. I think it was kind of had to do with that tax issue. And, you know, he he basically said this is what he was looking for. And then when he got into the organization, I think he saw the number that was budgeted for, and it was a lot more so. Again, if you can deflect that, and I tell a story, when I first got out of the army, I kind of knew this. But when I first got out of the army, I was interviewing for jobs, you know, I was in an interview, and I deflect it. And I think the guy asked me again, and I deflect it. I think he asked me for, like, maybe that asked me for like, four times, and I just wound up giving him a range that was, like, obnoxious, 100 to 200,000 or something like that. But to me, you know, that in the interview didn’t go, go well after that. But to me, it was, like, it was more about, you know, clearing the slate instead of actually learning more about me and seeing if I was a good fit. So you never want to lie about your current style. If they ask about your current style, you never want to lie, but you definitely want to deflect and move to things of like, okay, can I potentially be a good fit for your organization? And then go from there? Yeah. And

Tim Ulbrich  22:55

I think deflection takes practice, right? I don’t think that comes down to many of us. Totally, yeah. Yeah, this, this reminds me. So, you know, talk less, listen more for for any Hamilton folks we have out there, which is playing 24/7 in my house these days, the soundtrack, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna sing right now, but talk less. Smile, smile more. Don’t let them know what you’re against or what you’re for. So I think that’s a good, good connection there to the interview stage. So next, hopefully comes the good news. Company wants to hire you makes an offer. So Tim, talk us through this stage. What? What should we be remembering when we actually have an offer on the table? Yeah, so

Tim Baker  23:30

I think you definitely want to be appreciative and thankful again when, when a company gets to a point where they’re extending you an offer, that’s, that’s, that’s huge. I remember when I got, again, my first offer out of out of the Army, because, again, you don’t really have a choice when you’re in the army. Well, I guess you do have a choice, but you know, they’re not like, here’s a here’s a written offer for your employment in this platoon somewhere in Iraq. But I remember getting the first offer. I’m like, Man, this is awesome. Shows your salary and the benefits and things like that. So you want to be appreciable and thankful you don’t appreciative and thankful. You don’t want to be you want to be excited, but not too over excited. So you don’t want to appear to be desperate. What I tell clients, I think the biggest piece here is make sure you get it in, write in, yes, and I have a, you know, a story that I tell him, because if it’s not in writing and what essentially says it didn’t, didn’t happen. So again, using some personal experience here, you know, first job out of the army, I had negotiated, you know, basically an extra week of vacation because I didn’t want to take a step back in that regard. And I got the offer, and the extra week wasn’t there. So I talked to my, my, you know, my future boss, about it, and he said, You know what, I don’t want to go back to headquarters and, you know, in ruffle some feathers. So why don’t we just take care of that on site here, and this was the job I had in Columbus, Ohio. And I said, Yeah, okay, I don’t really want to, you know, ruffle feathers either. The problem with that was when he got replaced, when he was terminated, eight months later, that currency burned up fairly quickly. Be so I didn’t have that, you know, that that extra week of vacation. So, you know, if it’s not written down, it never happens. So you want to make sure that, you know, you get it in, right in, and really go over that written offer extensively. So some employers, they’ll, they’ll extend an offer, and they want to, you know, a decision right away. I would walk away from that, you know, to me, a job change, or, you know, something of that magnitude, you know, I think warrants a 24 if not a 48 probably a minimum of 48 hour, you know, time frame for for you to kind of mold over and this is typically where I kind of, I come in and help clients, because they’ll say, Hey, Tim, I got this offer. What do you think? And we go through it, and we look at benefits, and we look at, you know, the total compensation package and things like that. But, you know, you want to, you know, ask for, you know, ask for a time, you know, some time to review everything and then agreed, you know, definitely adhere to the agree, agreed upon deadline to basically provide, you know, an answer or counteroffer, or, you know, whatever, whatever the next step is for you.

Tim Ulbrich  26:01

Yeah, and I think too, the advice to get it in writing helps buy you time. You know, I think you asked for it anyways. And I think the way you approach this conversation, you’re setting up the counter offer, right? So the tone that you’re using, it’s not about being arrogant here. It’s not about, you know, acting like you’re not excited at all. I think you can strike that balance between you’re appreciative, you’re thankful. You know, you’re continuing to assess if it’s a good fit for you and the organization you want. Some time you want it in writing, and you’re beginning to set the stage. And I think human behavior, right? Says if, if, if something is either on the table or pulled away slightly, the other party wants it a little bit more, right? So yes, if I’m the employer, and I really want someone, and I’m all excited about the offer, and I’m hoping they’re gonna say yes, and they say, Hey, I’m really, really thankful for the offer. I’m excited about what you guys are doing. I need some time to think about X, Y and Z, or, you know, I’m really thinking through X, Y or Z, like, all of a sudden, that makes me want them more, you know. So I think there’s, there’s value in in setting up, what is that, that counter offer? So talk to us about the counteroffer. Tim, break it down in some strategies to think about in this portion. Yeah.

Tim Baker  27:10

So, you know, the the counter offer is, I would say, you know, the majority of the time you should counter in some way. I think you’re expected to make a counter. And again, we kind of back that up with some stats. But you also, you need to know when, you know when not to kind of continue to go back to negotiating table, or when, when you’re asking or over asking. So, you know, I think research is going to be a good, you know, part of that, and I, what I tell clients is like, I can give them a very nice, non scientific I’ve worked with so many pharmacists that I can kind of say, oh, that sounds low, you know, in this for community pharmacy or industry, or whatever, you know, hospital in this area. So, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s your network, which could be someone like me, it could be a call, you know, colleagues. But it could also be things like Glassdoor, indeed, salary.com, so you want to make sure that your, you know, your offer, your counter offer, it is backed up in some type of, you know, fact, and really, you know knowing how to maximize your leverage. So if you are you know if you do receive more than one substantial offer, you know, you know from multiple employers, negotiating may be appropriate if the two positions are comparable and then, or if you have tangible evidence that the salary is too low, you know you have a strong position to negotiate. So I had a client that knew that new, newly hired pharmacists were being paid more than than she was, and she, you know, she had the evidence to show that. And basically they went back and did a nice adjustment. So, but again, I think as you go through the way that we kind of do this, you know, with clients, is we kind of go through the the entire letter, and, you know, the benefits and and I basically just highlight things and have questions about, you know, match or vacation time or salary and things like that. And then we start constructing it from there. So if you look at again, the thing where most people will start a salary is, you know, you really want to give. When you counter, you really want to give a salary range, rather than, like a number. So what I say is, if, a if, if, if, if you say, Hey, Tim, I really want to make $100,000 I kind of said it’s almost like the big bad wolf that blows the house down like all those zeros is, it’s not, it’s there’s no substance to that. But if you said, Hey, I really want to make $105,985 the the Journal of experimental social psychology says that using a precise number instead of a rounded number gives it a more potent anchor. So your homework, right? Yeah, you know, you know what you what, you know, what you’re worth, you know, what the positions worth? It’s given the appearance of research. So I kind of like, you know, it’s kind of like the gap the Zach Galifianakis, me, that has all the equations that are flowing. It’s kind of like that. But the the $100,000 you can just blow that house over. So, and I think so. So once you figure out that number, then you kind of want to. Change it so, you know, they say, if you give a range of, you know, you know, of a salary, then it opens up room for discussion, and shows the employer that you have flexibility, and it gives you some cushion. In case, you know, you think that you’re asking for a little bit too high so that’s, that’s going to be, that’s going to be really, really important is, is that to provide kind of precise numbers in in a range, and, oh, by the way, I want to be kind of paid at the upper, upper echelon of that. So

Tim Ulbrich  30:28

real quick on that you mentioned before, the concept of anchoring. I want to spend some time here as you’re talking about a range. So dig into that further. What that means in terms of, if I’m given a range, how does anchoring fit into that. Yeah.

Tim Baker  30:41

So, you know, we kind of talk about this more more when we kind of talk some about the tools and the behavior of negotiation, but the rain. So when we talk about, like anchoring, so anchoring is actually it’s a bias. So anchor and bias describes the common tendency to give too much weight to the first number. So again, if we’re, if we if we can, if I can, if can, have invite the listener to imagine an equation, and the equation is five times four times three times two times one, and that’s in your mind’s eye. And then you clear the slate, and now you imagine this equation one times two times three times four times five. Now, if I show the average person, and I just flash that number up, the first number that start, you know the first equation that starts with five and the second equation that starts with one, we know that those things equal, the same thing, but in the first equation, we see the five first. So it creates this anchor, creates this belief in us that that number is actually higher. Yeah. So, so the the idea of anchoring is typically that that number that we see really is a has a major influence. That first number is a major influence of where the negotiation goes. So you can kind of get into the whole idea of you know, factor in your knowledge of the zone of possible agreement, which is often called Zopa. So that’s the range of options that should be acceptable for both sides, and then kind of assessing, you know, your side of that, and then your your other parties anchor on that. So there’s, there’s lots of things that kind of going into anchoring, but you know, we, you know, we did this recently with a with a client, where I think they were offered somewhere in like the 110 112 area. And she’s like, you know, I really want to get paid closer to, like 117 118 so we, we basically in the counter offer. We said, hey, you know that, thanks for the offer. And we did something called an accusation on it, which we can talk about in a second. But thanks for the counter offer. But, you know, I’m really looking to make between, you know, I think we said something like 116 five, you know, 98 to, you know, all the way up into the 120s and it actually brought her up to, I think she was just 117 change actually brought her up closer to that 18. So using that range and kind of that, that range as an as a good anchoring position to help, help the negotiation. So there’s lots of different things that kind of go into anchor, in terms of extreme anchoring, and a lot of that stuff that they talk about in the book. But again, that’s kind of goes back to that first number being thrown out there can be really, really integral. And again, when you couple that on top of, hey, it’s, it’s their job to make you an offer, not the, not the other way around. You have to really learn how to deflect that and and know you know how to position, you know, position yourself in those negotiations. But that’s really the counteroffer. And what I would say to kind of just wrap up the counter offer is embrace the silence. Yeah, so Tim, there’s silence there. And I’m like, I want to, I want to feel the voice. And I do this with with clients, when we talk about, like mirroring and things like that, like people are uncomfortable with silence. And you know what he talks about in the book, which I would 100% this is really kind of a tip of the cat to Chris Voss in his book, which I love, I read probably at least once a year, where he talks about embracing the silence. We as people are conditioned to feel silences. So you know, he talks about sometimes people will, you know, negotiate against themselves. If you just sit there and you say, Uh huh, that’s interesting. And then in the in the counters, just be pleasantly persistent on the non salary terms, which can be both subjective and objective in terms of what you’re looking for in that position, yeah. And I

Tim Ulbrich  34:19

want to make sure we don’t lose that. You know, we’re talking a lot about salary. But again, as we mentioned at the beginning, really try to not only understand but but fit what’s the value of those non salary terms. So this could be everything from, you know, paid time off to, obviously, other benefits, whether that be health or retirement. This, of course, could be called culture of the organization, whether it’s that specific site, the broader organization, opportunities for mentorship.

Tim Baker  34:48

Yep, mentorship, yes, yes, all that. 

Tim Ulbrich  34:51

I think what you hear from folks, I know I felt in my own personal career, with each year that goes on, I value salary, but salary means less than those other. Things mean more. And so as you’re looking at, let’s just say two offers is one example. Let’s say they’re 5000 apart. Like, I’m not saying you give on salary, but how do you factor in these other variables?

Tim Baker  35:10

Yeah, well, and I think too, and I’ll this is kind of, you know, kind of next level with this. And I’ll give you some examples to cite it. I think another, thing to potentially do when you when you are countering and when you’re shifting to some of the maybe the non salary stuff is really took a hard look at your potential employer, or even your current employer, if this is a you know, if you’re an incumbent and you’re and you’re being reviewed and you’re just advocated for a better compensation package, is look at the company’s mission and values. Yeah. So the example I give is like, when we, when we, when Shay and I got pregnant with Liam, you know, she didn’t, she didn’t have a, you know, a maternity leave benefit, and when she was being reviewed, we kind of, you know, invoked the company. And I think it’s like work life balance and things like that. And we’re like, Well, how can you say that and not back that up? And again, we do it. We did it tactfully. And because you’re almost like, you’re almost like, negotiating against yourself, right? So I present this to clients like the Spider Man meme, whether you know, two spider mans are pointing at each other, and she was able to negotiate a better you know, I’m attorney, and it actually, and you we look at us, you know? And I, you know, I give these, one of our values is encourage growth and development, you know. So if an employee says, Hey, and they make a case that I really want to do this, and, you know, it’s almost like we’re negotiating against ourselves. So I think, if you can one, I think it shows, again, the the research and that you’re really interested and plugged into what the organization is doing. But then I think you, you’re, you’re leveraging the the company against itself in some ways, because you’re almost, you know, negotiating against, well, yeah, we put these on the wall as something that we believe in, but we’re not going to support it. Or, you know, so or, you know, at the very least, it plants a seed, right? And that’s what I that’s what I say sometimes with clients, you know, we do strike out. We don’t, you know, it’s like, it’s, it is hard to move the needle and sometimes, but at least one, we’ve got an iteration under our belts where we are negotiation. And two, we’ve planted a seed with that employer, you know, assuming that they took the job anyway, that says, Okay, these are things that are kind of important to me that we’re going to talk about again when we get and things like that. So I think that’s huge.

Tim Ulbrich  37:18

Good stuff. So let’s talk about some tools that we can use for negotiation, and again, many of these are covered in more detail in the book and other resources, which we’ll link to in the show notes. I just want to hit on a few of these. Let’s talk about mirroring accusation audits and the importance of getting a that’s right while you’re in these conversations. And we’ll leave our listeners to dig deeper in some of the other areas. So talk to us about mirroring. What is it? And kind of give us the example and strategies of mirroring.

Tim Baker  37:49

Yeah. And I would actually, Tim, what I would do is I would actually back up, because I think one of the, I think probably one of the most important tools that that are there, I think, is, is the calibrated questions. That’s one of the first things that he talked Yeah. And the reason so, what is a calibrated question? So a calibrated question is a question with really no fixed answer that gives the illusion of control. So the answer, however, is kind of constrained by that question, and you, the person that’s asking the question, has control of the conversation. So I give the example. You know, when we, when we moved into our our house after we renovated it. So brand new house, I walk into my daughter’s room. I think it was four. She was four at the time, and she’s coloring on the the wall in red, red, red crown. And I’m from, I’m from Jersey. So I say crown, not crayon. So she’s, and I, and I look at her, and I say, Olivia, why are, why are you doing that? And she sees how, like, upset I am and mad, or, you know, and she just starts crying. And there’s no there’s no negotiation from there. There’s negotiation over if, there’s no exchange of information. So in an alternate reality, in an alternate reality, what I should have done instead. Olivia, what? What caused you to do that? So you’re basically blasting instead of why is, why is very accusatory. You’re like, you know, the how and the what questions are good so, and of course, she would say, well, Daddy, I ran out of paper, so the walls the next best thing. So the use of, the use of, and having these calibrated questions in your back pocket, I think, again, buys you some time. And really, I think, frames the conversation with your counterpart well. So using words like how and what, and avoiding things like why, when, who, so you know, what about this works. Doesn’t work for you. How can we make this better for us? How you know? How do you want to proceed? How can we solve this problem? What’s the biggest challenge you face? These are all how does this look to you? These are all calibrated questions that again, as you’re kind of going back and forth, you can kind of lean on so have good how and what questions to kind of answer the question about mirroring. As you’re asking these questions, you’re mirroring. Counterpart. So what mirror in the scientific term is called ISO praxism, but he defines this as the Real Life Jedi mind trick. This causes vomiting of information, is what he says. So you know, these are not the droids you’re looking for. So what, what you essentially do is you, you repeat back the last one to three words, or the critical words of your counterpart sentence, your counterpart sentence. So this is me mirroring myself. Yeah. Well, you want to repeat back because you want to, you want them to reveal more information, and you want to build rapport and have that curiosity of kind of what is, what is the other person thinking? So you can again, come to come to an agreement, come to an agreement. Yeah. So you at the end of the day, the purpose. So this is mirror, and so I’ll show you a funny story. The you know, I do. I practice this on my wife, sometimes who does not have a problem speaking, but sometimes with counterpoint listening, by the way. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I’ll probably be in trouble. But so I basically just, you know, for the you know, for conversation, just just mirror back exactly what she’s saying. And you can do this physically. You can cross your legs or your arms, or, you know, whatever that looks like, but, but when he talks about more is with words, and, you know, I’ll basically just mirror back my wife and she, at the end of the conversation, she’ll say something like, Man, I feel like you really, like, listen to me. And I laugh about that, because I’m just really repeating back. But if you think about it, I did, because for you to be able to do that, you really do have to listen so, so mirroring again, if you’re just repeating back, you really start to uncover more of what your counterpart is thinking. Because often, like, what comes out of our mouth, you know, the first or even second time is just smoke, you know, so really uncovering that one of the things he talks about is, you know, is labeling where, you know, this is kind of described as the method of validating one’s emotion by acknowledging it. So it’s, it seems like you’re really concerned about patient care. It seems like you’re really concerned about the organization’s retention of talent. So what you’re doing is that you’re using neutral statements that don’t involve the use of I or we, so it’s not necessarily accusatory, and then you are, you know, same with the same with the mirror. You really want to not step on your mirror. You want to not step on your label and really invite the other person to say, Yeah, I’m just really frustrated by this or that. So labeling is really important to basically diffuse the power then the negative emotion and really allow you to remain neutral and kind of find out more about that. So that’s super important, yeah.

Tim Ulbrich  42:39

And I think with both of those, Tim, as you’re talking, it connects well back to what we, we mentioned earlier, of of talk less, listen more like you’re Yeah, you’re really getting more information out, right from from a situation that can be guarded. You know, people are trying to be guarded. And I think more information could lead, hopefully, to a more fruitful negotiation. What about the accusation audit?

Tim Baker  42:59

Yeah. So the accusation audit is, um, is it’s one of my favorites. Kind of same, same with calibrated questions. I typically will tell clients, I’m like, Hey, if you don’t, you know, if you don’t learn anything from this, I would say, have some calibrated questions in your back pocket and have a good accusation audit at the Reddit at the ready. And we typically would, typically will use the accusation audit to kind of frame up a counter offer. So, you know, it kind of, it kind of, so, so what? Before I give you the example, the accusation audit is a technique that’s used to identify and labor label, probably like, the worst thing that your counterpart could say about it. So these, this is all the, like, the head trash that’s kind of going on, yes, what of why? I don’t want, don’t want to negotiate. It’s like, Ah, they’re gonna think that, you know, I’m over asking, or I’m greedy, like all those things are that you’re, you’re thinking, so you’re really, you’re really just pointing to the elephant in the room, and you’re just trying to take this thing out and really let the air out of the room, you know, where a lot of people just get so nervous about this. So a good accusation audit is, Hey, Tim, I really appreciate the offer of, you know, $100,000 you know, to work, you know to work with your you know, with your organization. You’re probably gonna think that I’m the greediest person on planet Earth, but I was really looking for this to that, or great line, great. Or you’re, or you’re probably thinking that I’m gonna, I’m asking way too much, or you’re probably thinking that I’m way under qualified for this position, but here’s what I’m thinking. So you’re so again, like, no. Tim, right, right? So when someone says that to me, I’m like, No, I don’t think that. And what often happens, and again, this, this, clients have told me this, what often happens is that the person you know, the counterpart that they’re working with, like, they’re they, they’re recruited as, like, you know, one person said one client was like, Oh, we’re gonna find you more money. We’re gonna figure it out. So they like, you know. So when someone says that to you, you know, just think about how you would feel, you know, I don’t think that at all. And then it just kind of lets the the air out of the room. So you basically preface your counter offer with like, the. The worst things that they could say about about you, and then they typically say that’s not, that’s not true at all. So I love the accusation on it’s so simple, it’s kind of easy to remember. And I think it’s just, it just lays, I think, the groundwork for just great conversation and hopefully resolution.

Tim Ulbrich  45:16

That’s awesome. And then let’s wrap up with a goal of getting to a, that’s right. I remember when I was listening to interview with Chris Voss, this is a part that I heard, and I thought, Wow, that’s so powerful. If you can get in the midst of this negotiation, if we can get to a, yeah, that’s right, the impact that that could happen in the outcome.

Tim Baker  45:33

So, so he kind of talks about it like, you know, kind of put in all of these different tools together, so it’s, um, you know, mirroring and labeling and kind of, you know, using, I think, what he calls minimal encouragements of, uh huh, I see, kind of paraphrasing back what you hear from your from your counterpart, and then really wait for it’s like, Hey, did I get that? Did I get that right? Or am I tracking and what you’re really looking for is that that’s right. And he said, that’s even better than than a yes. So, like, one of the examples I give is, you know, when, when I speak with prospective clients, you know, we’re talking about, like my student loans and my investment portfolio and my, you know, I’m not doing real budgeting, and, you know, I got sold a life insurance policy that I think isn’t great for me. And so we go through all these different parts of the financial plan, and I basically am summarizing back what, you know, what they’re saying, and I say, you know, at the end of it. So I’m summarizing, you know, 30 minutes of conversation, and, you know, I’m saying that, did I? Did I get that right? And they’re like, Yeah, that’s right. You’re, you know, a great listener, which I have to record for my wife sometimes because she doesn’t agree with me. So that’s what you what you what you’re looking for is, is, yeah, that’s right. This person has heard, you know, message sent, heard, understands me. He says, if you get a, if you if you get a, you’re right. So sometimes, again, I keep talking about my wife. I’m like, Hey, Shay, we have to do a better job of saving for retirement. She’s like, you’re right. That’s really code for Shut up and go away. So it’s a, it’s a That’s right, is what, what really what we’re what we’re looking for. So that’s, that’s, yeah, very powerful.

Tim Ulbrich  47:08

That’s great stuff. And really just a great overall summary of some tips within the negotiation process, the steps of the negotiation process, how it fits into the financial plan. We hope folks walk away with that and just a good reminder of our comprehensive financial planning services that we do at yp planning. This is a great example of when we say comprehensive, we mean it so it’s not just investments, it’s not just student loans, it’s really every part of the financial plan, anything that has $1 sign on it. We want our clients to be in conversation and working with our financial planners to make sure we’re optimizing that and looking at all parts of one’s financial planning here, negotiation is a good example of that. So we reference lots of resources. Main one we talked about here today was never split the difference by Chris Voss. We will link to that in our show notes, and as a reminder to access the show notes, you can go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/podcast, find this week’s episode. Click on that, you’ll be able to access a transcription of the episode as well as as the show notes and the resources. And last but not least, if you like what you heard on this week’s episode of the podcast, please leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts, wherever you listen to the show. Each and every week, have a great rest of your day.

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As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products, we urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyzes expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published such information may contain forward looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit your financial pharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week. 

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YFP 350: Monetizing Your Clinical Expertise with Dr. Gauthier (YFP Classic)


Tim Gauthier, PharmD, creator of two learning platforms shares advice for pharmacists seeking to monetize their clinical expertise. Episode sponsored by APhA.

Episode Summary

This week on the YFP Podcast, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, welcomes antimicrobial stewardship pharmacist and fellow pharmacy entrepreneur, Tim Gauthier. Tim is the creator of IDStewarship.com and LearnAntibiotics.com. During the show, Tim and Tim discuss the genesis for creating these two learning platforms, how Tim has monetized his clinical experience to create passive streams of income, and how he manages to stay consistent in entrepreneurship while balancing a full-time pharmacy career and fulfilling personal life.

Listeners will hear about Tim’s pathway to pharmacy, what drew him into the profession, his passion for infectious disease pharmacy, and what he was hoping to accomplish with his learning platforms, IDStwardship.com and LearnAntibiotics.com. Tim walks us through the content and resources available on his websites and how he has monetized them while providing a wealth of free content to his community.

Making things passive and generating passive revenue streams is crucial to Tim, and he shares the tools and systems he has put in place to make that goal possible while balancing other obligations. Tim also discusses the incredible value of community and how he has built an active, engaged pharmacists community that contributes to the platforms in multiple ways. Tim closes with advice for pharmacists looking to follow a similar path in monetizing their clinical expertise.

About Today’s Guest

Timothy P. Gauthier, Pharm.D., BCPS, BCIDP is a pharmacist trained in infectious diseases and antimicrobial stewardship. He is a clinician, researcher, educator, and author. He is an advocate for antimicrobial stewardship and pharmacy education.

Dr. Gauthier graduated from Northeastern University’s School of Pharmacy (Boston, MA) in 2008. He then completed a Post-Graduate Year-1 Pharmacy Practice Residency and a Post-Graduate Year-2 Infectious Diseases Pharmacy Residency at Jackson Memorial Hospital (Miami, FL). Since finishing terminal training he has worked in academia (Nova Southeastern University, 2010-2015), clinical practice (Miami Veterans Affairs Healthcare System, 2015-2019), and a leadership role (Baptist Health South Florida, 2019-current), all focusing on advancing the fields of infectious diseases pharmacy and antimicrobial stewardship.

He holds certifications from the Board of Pharmacy Specialties for Pharmacotherapy and Infectious diseases. He has completed the Making A Difference in Infectious Diseases Pharmacotherapy Antimicrobial Stewardship Training Program.

He is the creator and editor-in-chief of www.IDstewardship.com, www.LearnAntibiotics.com, and the many @IDstewardship social media profiles. He co-hosts the #ASPchat each month on Twitter. He reaches thousands of people each day on the internet and on social media, where he aims share reliable and relevant information from the world of pharmacy and healthcare in general. IDstewardship.com alone has registered over 5,00,000 page views as of November 2022.

Key Points from the Episode

  • The genesis for creating two learning platforms (IDStewardship.com and LearnAntibiotics.com)
  • How Dr. Gauthier has monetized his clinical expertise to create passive revenue streams
  • How Dr. Gauthier manages and leverages his time to be able to consistently put out good content while working full-time and fulfilling his personal commitments and goals

Episode Highlights

“So it’s been a really rewarding experience, and collaborating with others from around the world has been something an area of success, I think, to be part of kind of the community that I’ve built. But I have a lot of flexibility, and that’s one thing that a lot of organizations don’t have.” – Tim Gauthier

“But that’s what drives me because I just really am totally obsessed with infectious diseases and microbial stewardship, and I think people need help learning. I needed a lot of help learning. I see where there’s benefit. I see where there’s value. There’s some monetary benefit that comes with it. It’s not anything that’s extreme by any means. But by having that win-win, it’s really been something that I think has been worth pursuing.” – Tim Gauthier

“I think that’s kind of the most important thing I’ve learned when it comes to telling people you have something to share with them, showing them that it’s meaningful, getting them excited about it, showing them that you’re a reliable person that has the know-how to get them the resource that they need to succeed. That is really critical. So that’s kind of some of the messaging there.” – Tim Gauthier

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRO]

[00:00:00] T. ULBRICH: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. 

This week, I had a chance to welcome antimicrobial stewardship pharmacist and fellow pharmacy entrepreneur, Tim Gauthier. Tim is the creator of IDStewardship.com and LearnAntibiotics.com. During the show, Tim and I talk about the genesis for creating these two learning platforms, how Tim has monetized his clinical expertise, and how he manages and leverages his time to be able to consistently put out good content while working full-time and fulfilling his personal commitments and goals.

Before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 250 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. 

All right, let’s jump into my interview with pharmacist and entrepreneur, Tim Gauthier. 

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:21] T. ULBRICH: Tim, welcome to the show.

[00:01:23] T. GAUTHIER: Hey, thanks for having me. I’m really excited to be here. How are you, Tim?

[00:01:26] T. ULBRICH: I’m well. I’m excited to dig into the work that you’re doing and for you to share with the YFP community how you’ve been monetizing your clinical expertise. But before we jump into that, I’d love to learn about your journey into pharmacy school, into the profession, where you went to school, when you graduated, and what drew you into the profession of pharmacy.

[00:01:44] T. GAUTHIER: Oh, yeah, of course. So I went to Northeastern University in Boston, Massachusetts and graduated in 2008, which feels like yesterday, but it’s been four years now. I got into pharmacy because I really was interested in microbiology. It turns out it’s easier to transfer into microbiology from pharmacy than pharmacy to microbiology. So I started in pharmacy. I ended up sticking with it. I never thought I’d go into infectious diseases pharmacy, just because it didn’t really cross my mind, and I didn’t know much about that early in my years. 

Then later on, after PGY1, I had the opportunity to do a PGY2 in ID. Lo and behold, today, I’m an infectious diseases-obsessed pharmacist, who’s out there to defend antibiotics and promote clinical pharmacy. So here we are today.

[00:02:27] T. ULBRICH: So the Northeast, Tim, to Florida. This is the time of year in the Northeast. I grew up in the Buffalo area, where it’s beautiful. I always say six months out of the year, I’d live anywhere else. But the Midwest I’m at now or the Northeast. But the other six months, included this time of year, is absolutely gorgeous. So do you miss the seasons at all?

[00:02:49] T. GAUTHIER: I do miss the seasons, but the winter in Miami, Florida, where I live now, is just absolutely wonderful. I love the culture, as well as all the different types of food here. We do visit. Periodically, I go to Boston, Rhode Island, Connecticut and stuff. So it’s nice to be able to have a little bit of the best of both worlds.

[00:03:06] T. ULBRICH: Yeah, yeah. So we connected several years back, and I’ve been following your work for some time. I wanted to bring you out in the show, as I think what you’ve built is a really cool example of how pharmacists can monetize their clinical expertise. Certainly, as we’ll talk about, it’s not just about the money, but it’s being able to leverage the skills, the passion, the interest that you have to fill a gap in the market and to help people looking to learn more about a topic. 

Here, we’re going to be talking about infectious disease, of course, and we have featured a variety of individuals on the podcasts over the past year or so. So I’m excited to share your journey as well. So let’s start with IDStewardship.com. When and why did you start it? Who was it for? What were you hoping to accomplish? 

[00:03:49] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. So IDStewardship.com has been alive since about 2016, and I just had a friend who knew how to build websites, and I wanted to build something on my own, and he offered to help and put it together. Then I kind of took off from there, and I do pretty much everything on my own now. When I have a technical problem, he comes in? But why did I do it? There’s a couple of reasons. 

One is I wanted to own my own space on the Internet, where I could have a voice, where I could publish things and not be restricted by a company or a manager or a group of people. Also, I just really enjoy your writing. So it gave me an opportunity to use a different part of my brain on the weekends and in the evening hours to share information that could be open access and someone else could benefit from. There’s a huge need in pharmacy. It has been for us to share our experiences and practical advice and insights so that others can learn and grow from it. 

Also, just sharing information about antibiotics to make it easier for people to understand what drugs can I use for MRSA or Pseudomonas. But then some deeper things like what are five things to know about, I don’t know, Stenotrophomonas or Acinetobacter. So really, it’s just a myriad of content these days. If you’re a pharmacy professional, if you’re a healthcare professional, there’s some stuff on there that you’ll be interested in. If you’re just looking for fun stuff, there’s a drug name emoji that people really, really seem to enjoy. 

[00:05:03] T. ULBRICH: So I’m trying to understand, Tim, the need you’re filling with this resource. So obviously, we all went through ID curriculums in our PharmD program. There are there are PGY2 residencies that focus on this fellowships who focus on this. Certainly, there are associations or interest groups within associations that focus on this. So what is different here that you’re trying to carve out to fill a need that you felt like either wasn’t being met for you or for other clinicians through those other learning pathways?

[00:05:32] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. I didn’t do very well in ID in pharmacy school, ironically, and I didn’t feel comfortable with it until I was like halfway through my PGY2. Practical resources that are available that are insightful and that consider the things that are beyond just the obvious, those were lacking. That really motivated me to try to put out things that were interesting. But also, like when you go to practice, these are five things you need to know about [inaudible 00:05:55] come across [inaudible 00:05:57]. I think that the community has received it really well, but I use social media to amplify that voice in different social media platforms. 

So it’s been a really rewarding experience, and collaborating with others from around the world has been something an area of success, I think, to be part of kind of the community that I’ve built. But I have a lot of flexibility, and that’s one thing that a lot of organizations don’t have.

[00:06:21] T. ULBRICH: Yes, yeah. The digestible nature of the content strikes me. You’ve alluded to it a couple of times with examples you’ve given thus far in the show. It reminds me of one of the pharmacist we’ve had on this show, Kelley Carlstrom, on episode 217. Her business called KelleyCPharmD. She does an awesome job of this in the pharmacy space, specifically in oncology practice, making it accessible, no matter where you are. She trained at the Cleveland Clinic, an internationally recognized institution. Not everyone can go do your residency there, right? Has the time to commit, potentially has to travel to do that. 

Her vision really is what about all the other hospitals? What about all the rural healthcare settings that are trying to treat patients and get their clinical staff up to speed? Or perhaps different practice models that don’t have a lineup of board certified residency trained pharmacists with multiple credentials? How can we expand the accessibility of this content? That’s one of things I love about what you’re doing here, and it really does strike me as being much more accessible than what is out there and some more traditional training programs or those that are offered by other groups. 

It’s also written and presented in a way that is easy to understand. It’s relevant. It’s things that, Tim, you’re experiencing daily as a clinician yourself or encounters when you’re precepting residents or students. So you know the pain points. You know the questions, the problems, the points of confusion because you’re living them each day. I love the platform of what you built to address that. 

So take us, Tim, through IDStewardship.com, in terms of the content you have, the resources you offer, and how you’ve been able to monetize it, right? You give out a lot of great content for free. But you also been able to monetize the site and enable to reap some of the fruit for all the work that you’re putting in, and you’ve put in over the last seven years. So talk to us about what you offer and provide on the site and how you’ve been able to monetize that.

[00:08:14] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. I offered way too much stuff for free, probably. But exactly like an altruistic passion project, it has to make some kind of money for my wife to allow me to continue it. So definitely, it’s a mixed bag. But the art of the IDStewardship.com offers articles, which are blog articles talking about the student experience, the pharmacist experience, clinical insights into common questions that we ask and that we see. Those are always written by content experts who have practical experience in the area, and I vet all that content to make sure it’s reliable, credible, and it goes beyond like the obvious content that you might find in a general article. 

Also, there’s a study guide section, which is free and open access that has a picture of the drug, some of my key points, which I think you might find on your pharmacy school exams or maybe the BCPS or BCIDP exam and then links to some of the articles or some of the guidelines that are really relevant to that drug. I have a list of resources, which is pretty cool. If you’re looking for anything about antibiotics, that is a very robust list of resources. So like hepatitis C screening for Child-Pugh score. There’s a calculator in there. Just pick one random example. Or even if you’re looking for regulatory content from the Joint Commission, it’s linked there. 

I also have the contributor section, where you can see who’s participated, and there’s really a lot of contributors to my website. So I do want to emphasize that that’s a really cool part of what I’ve been able to do, and it’s not just Tim doing it. It’s the community. But I kind of lead it because I’m kind of like the editor in chief of the content founder. The other part, though, which I really want to talk about for a second is LearnAntibiotics.com. So I’ve taken the opportunity to show people that, yes, these are articles that are available. But I’ve been able to produce content that you can use for learning. As a background in academia, I know that you have to go and be able to identify and define before you can analyze and assess and predict. 

So I’ve built content specifically to help people through that learning process. If you’re looking to identify and define, I have cheat sheets on different disease states, on different drug classes. Those can help people to say, okay, like, “Pseudomonas drugs, these are my drugs.” But then I also make more fun content that has like a word search or a Jeopardy game. Those can be applied to the specific area. Then the practice tests I’ve built so that if you are able to pass that practice test, you can practice pretty competently as a pharmacist and know what questions to ask for infectious diseases and even some of them I’ll give you. Here’s the question, here’s the answer, and here’s the rationale for why each answer is right, and each answer is wrong. So it’s pretty robust. 

[00:10:59] T. ULBRICH: I love that and I want to come back in a little bit to talk more about the LearnAntibiotics.com, in terms of what you’re trying to accomplish there. I think that’s going to give some folks some interesting ideas about as you’re considering monetizing your clinical expertise, there’s a lot of different ways to do that. I love what you’ve built there with that membership type of model. 

Two words, Tim, that really stand out about what you’ve built and the vision that you have going forward are passion and community. You mentioned community just a moment ago, and I love that you’ve brought together a group of people that are, obviously, passionate about learning more about antimicrobial stewardship, learning more about infectious disease, bringing in contributors to the site, taking them from just a passive learner, to engaging them in the conversation, contributing to the community, and then passion. Your passion for this topic and furthering individuals’ knowledge and, obviously, the more our healthcare professionals know about this topic, the better they’re able to serve their patients. 

I think this is so important for folks to hear, when you’re working on a side hustle or a business, especially when you’re working a full-time job, you have lots of other commitments, doing something that you’re passionate about, you mentioned that I probably got too much free content out there, right? It’s a passion project for you. Yes, you’re monetizing it. But that is going to really drive the energy and the enthusiasm to continue to build, especially in the early years, as someone who’s trying to get something off the ground. 

Tim, as people go to IDStewardship.com and they see what you’ve built over several years, how much of this is what you have built and maintained? And how much of this is what you have other people that are helping you in building and maintaining the site?

[00:12:36] T. GAUTHIER: That’s a great question, and it’s definitely changed over time. When I started to look at developing a website, I talked to one of my friends who’s in website development, and he said, “Tim, we can do a website. But this is not a six-month thing, and this is not a one-year thing. This is like a 10-year journey, and you have to think of it very long-term.” So taking small bites has been one of the keys to success. As I’ve understood the workflows on developing different items, it’s gotten to be more efficient over time. I do produce actually the majority of the content on my own when it comes to the background work. 

But the one thing that people send to the community of pharmacists, they’re willing to be a part of this journey. Them sending me articles and communicating with me and offering their assistance and trying to get their message out and share their passion, that really has enabled me to produce more content and put more information out there. But it is a tremendous amount of work. I do spend a lot of time between the hours of 8:00 PM and 11:00 PM working on this type of stuff. I think if you don’t have the passion for it, it’s probably going to be hard to do it long term. 

But that’s what drives me because I just really am totally obsessed with infectious diseases and microbial stewardship, and I think people need help learning. I needed a lot of help learning. I see where there’s benefit. I see where there’s value. There’s some monetary benefit that comes with it. It’s not anything that’s extreme by any means. But by having that win-win, it’s really been something that I think has been worth pursuing. 

One of the secrets that they say is not to do things alone, right? If you’re going to build a program like this, or you’re going to build a side business. I have mixed feelings about that. On one hand, I love the freedom that I have. I have total creative freedom to do whatever I want, whenever I want, with no one arguing with me. But at the same time, being in an echo chamber with yourself is not always a positive thing, and having a partner can push you in good directions. So I think partnerships are important, and you can choose to pursue things as a partnership or as an individual. 

Something else I want to note that as I built out what I have online with IDStewardship is I’ve really purposely tried to make it about the brand and not about me. That kind of protects me in a way because the voice is the voice of the brand and not the voice of the individual. Also, people can engage within behind that brand and be a part of the community again, rather than it being part of what Tim is doing. So that was actually very strategic in the development. 

[00:15:02] T. ULBRICH: Yeah, Tim. I think that’s a strategic move for the reason you mentioned also. I think about the passion and the mission of what you’re trying to do. Like there may be a day where maybe this isn’t only Tim who’s doing this. Or for whatever reason, you have others that are involved in the mission of advancing the education around IDStewardship and being able to have this information accessible, where folks can learn and perhaps be excited about learning it I think transcends just one person, right? So I think the contributors is another important aspect here of what you’ve highlighted.

[00:15:34] T. GAUTHIER: Like making things passive is also really important to me. I’ve learned that a lot during COVID because COVID has been absolutely horrible for all infectious diseases pharmacists and time management and when life was balanced. I mean, everybody in general. But I mean, trying to keep up with the literature and be engaged, on top of having this site and stuff going on, I need things to be able to put on pause, right? If I have no commitments that I’ve made, that’s not going to serve me well in the long term. So I really try to do things that are passive whenever possible and then only commit to like a couple of things at a time.

[00:16:05] T. ULBRICH: Yeah. One other thing I was thinking about, Tim, as I was looking at your site, that would be I think good advice for folks that are thinking about building their own, especially if they don’t have a huge budget upfront to be able to hire a web developer. If you’re building a content-based site, it could be blog articles that you’re adding, podcasts that you’re adding, e-resources that you’re adding checklists, guides, e-books, whatever, like you want to make sure you’re building it in a way that you understand and can add to it on a regular basis. 

So even if you’re working with a developer or a contractor to help you, making sure you have enough understanding of the back end so that you’re not spending a whole lot of money long-term or frustrated that each time you’re trying to add a piece of content to the site, whether that’s a blog, podcast, an opt-in guide, whatever be the case, that you want to be able to have something that’s nimble, and you can add to over time. 

[00:16:51] T. GAUTHIER: I’ve seen some people who built 20,000, 25,000-dollar websites, and they tend to be the people that follow a lot of podcasters in the space of like social media and engagement and business development. So I think if you’re committed to it, it can be worth the money. But you got to proceed with caution.

[00:17:10] T. ULBRICH: When I go to the site, Tim, and you mentioned already that LearnAantibiotics.com, www.learnantibiotics.com, we’ll link to that in the show notes, which takes you over to the IDStewardship site, that really is the membership portion of the site, where folks can be engaging with the community on an ongoing basis. Obviously, the goal there is that becomes some stability of recurring revenue that supports a lot of the time and effort and the free content that you’re putting out there. 

Talk to us about – I think in content marketing, and I hesitate to use that word because I feel like you’re leading with such good passion and education that sometimes that word can sound dirty. But ultimately, the value that you’re providing and really good free rich education is naturally going to make people aware of what you’re doing on the membership side, which has a recurring revenue potential. 

So what has your strategy or approach been to connect the free content with the membership model? Is it just that, hey, more eyeballs on the site and value that they’ll kind of find their way over there? Is it opt-ins that then point people to that resource? Tell us more about the strategy that you’ve employed to connect the free education people are viewing and receiving with some of the paid options you have. 

[00:18:24] T. GAUTHIER: For sure. As you’re saying, this, I’m thinking about how I need to be more strategic. Sometimes, just go with the flow. That feels good. That feels good. Sometimes, I think of things, and I’m like, “Oh, I wish I had done that.” Even right now, there’s a list of things that if I had the time in my life to do, I would totally do. 

But in general, what I try to do is capture a large audience and engage a large audience and do that through all these different ways that I think of, whether it’s something that’s like a clickable link on an Instagram story, or it’s a new blog post that I put out, or it’s putting a meme out there or just sharing like, “Hey, here’s like a part of my cheat sheet. If you’d like to see more of it like, shoot me your email address. I’ll shoot you a copy of this cheat sheet in full.” Then I have a way to communicate with those individuals. So if you’re just interested in the LearnAntibotics site or you’re interested in like all of IDStewardship, and you want to get our monthly newsletter, I’m able to reach you that way.

Another thing that’s important about having a mail listing is that if like tomorrow, Instagram decides to just delete my account, which they can’t, I have nothing. I’m left with nothing. Whereas since I have a Mailchimp account, they’re able to house my ability to communicate with my people. So in general, I provide something for free. I get the ability to contact these people. If you want to unsubscribe, I have no problem with that. Actually, when people unsubscribe, I don’t have to pay for you to be on my listserv anymore. I actually don’t mind at all. So if you don’t look at the newsletters we send out, feel free to unsubscribe. But if you want to subscribe, then we’d love to communicate with you. 

I think that’s kind of the most important thing I’ve learned when it comes to telling people you have something to share with them, showing them that it’s meaningful, getting them excited about it, showing them that you’re a reliable person that has the know-how to get them the resource that they need to succeed. That is really critical. So that’s kind of some of the messaging there. 

[00:20:18] T. ULBRICH: Yeah. I think one of the other things you’ve done really well, Tim, that I admire is you’re consistent in your content. We know and we’ll talk in a moment about how you balance time with other personal responsibilities. None of us are perfect and consistent in delivering the same amount of material, but you’ve been consistent over the years in terms of there’s not months and months of like quiet phases, and then you dump a bunch of content. 

I think that’s so important for any – If we think about communities we like to be a part of or content we like to follow, it’s a consistent offering that we’re engaging with that content. So as you’re getting started, as someone’s getting started, I think thinking about what is – Once you decide on the medium, is it a blog, is it a podcast, whatever you’re looking at, is it something like a vlog, what is going to be your rhythm roughly that you’re going to be delivering content and making sure you’re showing up on a consistent basis with your audience and those that are finding value from what you’re doing?

[00:21:10] T. GAUTHIER: Along those lines, I think listening to your community is important. I had someone email me recently and say, “Hey, Tim. I wish you had a malaria cheat sheet because I’m studying for the BCIDP exam or the BCPS exam,” I forget which. I made one that weekend, and I really enjoyed it. I thought it was super interesting. I learned a bunch about malaria. So not only does it like help people advance their professional goals. It helps me remember things. I use my websites all the time to remember some of these nuances that are details that are just – You can’t remember everything.

[00:21:40] T. ULBRICH: That’s where I think the community piece comes in well too. You’ve got a good social media following. I’m sure people reach out to your questions all the time. You have students on rotation. You start to put some of those repeated questions into content buckets, right? I know you have a list of running content ideas. I’m sure you do. But once you hear a question more than one, two, or three times, it’s like, all right, maybe there’s something here in terms of a piece of content that we should be putting out. 

Let’s talk about time and balancing doing this. You’ve certainly made a strong case that there’s a lot of passion behind it. But nonetheless, like you’ve got a family. You’re working a full-time job. You’re precepting residents, students. You have expectations at home and at work. Like what strategies have you employed time blocking, or how have you been able to really leverage time so that you can continue to put out content on a consistent basis while working full-time?

[00:22:31] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. Well, in the early days, and I was working at the Veterans Affairs Hospital in Miami, and they’re very strict in terms of their hours. So when you’re off duty, you’re off time. So everything that I did in the beginning was during off hours. That’s still the same today, but it taught me that you should only work on these things when you’re not on company resources, etc. 

But then I didn’t have small children in the early days, which meant I have had a lot more time, especially in the evening areas of the day. More recently, I have a three-year-old and a seven-year-old, and the evening hours are much more strenuous. So now, since we’ve developed more of an awareness in the community about IDStewardship, I reach out to people. When I see an article posted on like Twitter about something new that I’m interested in, I’ll reach out to the person who authored the article and say, “Hey, I’d love to have you write five things to know about whatever the topic is.” 

People almost always say yes because they want to share their passion. But it’s not just about me getting content. They now have a way to share that information. Sometimes, it’s the resident or the student or the second or third author that I work with. So they get an opportunity to share their voice. Coming up with strategies where I don’t have to do all the work has been one thing. Then also, like when you look at the development of like research and scholarly work in an academic position, you kind of look at it like a conveyor belt, and you want projects in all areas of your conveyor belt. 

Some things are in – You’re designing. What do you think it might look like, and you have your concepts, your list of projects? Then other things are going into publication, going out on the newsletter. So you’re constantly just like feeding that conveyor belt and keeping it going in different areas, and that’s how you stay productive over a long period of time. It’s not about taking one thing and rushing it forward but just maintaining that conveyor belt. There might be different conveyor belts that go faster or slower, and some things might take two years to do. 

But I always move forward with projects based upon what I think is like fun and interesting, and I don’t put pressure on people. I’m not out there saying, “Hey, if you don’t get back to me in two weeks, you’re not going to be allowed to do this.” If you don’t feel like doing this later because you have a problem, whatever. Don’t do it. If you want to circle back in two years, circle back into years, like no pressure.

[00:24:39] T. ULBRICH: Take us a little bit behind the scenes. I think one of the barriers that folks run into is they’re just trying to get started, and they go to someone’s site. They don’t necessarily have a picture of what are some of the tools and the systems and the processes that you have in place. You’ve mentioned a couple things already. Obviously, you’ve got the website infrastructure. You mentioned the email list. So like for us, we use WordPress for our website build. We use Bluehost for our domain hosting. We use ActiveCampaign for our email marketing. Then we have several other tools we use for project management and other things. 

So what are some of the tools that you use or that you have found to be helpful as you’ve been working on IDStewardship?

[00:25:18] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah, for sure. I use WordPress, and then I use WPX Hosting. Then for like the memberships, it’s PMPro or Paid Memberships Pro. I’ve been pretty happy with those overall. The WordPress in particular, it’s just overall really easy to use. You add a plug in. It updates. It’s no big deal. WPX is really – Once a year, I pay a fee. Once in a while, I’ll have a bandwidth issue. So I’ve learned that I need to downsize the images that I use when I post, which I think a lot of people kind of learn that lesson. 

I mean, that’s really the gist of it. Outside that, I use Mailchimp for my emails. I don’t really love how much they charge. I think they’re charging me like 250 a month for like 25,000 subscribers. So it’s great to have that many subscribers, but it doesn’t feel good paying $2,500 a year for that. But it also motivates me to put out content to use that tool that I’m paying for. So those are some of the key things that I’m using now. 

Otherwise, I just maintained like Excel sheets for a while. In the beginning, when I didn’t have as much content, I would do a lineup, and I would remind myself of when I posted to Facebook about a specific blog post, and I would just keep cycling through them. So I was always posting like one thing a day on Facebook. But it’s gotten to the point that I can’t do that anymore. I’d need to hire like a social media manager or something like that. I think as you grow, you need to start considering how can you work with who can you bring in. 

Another thing is as I’ve kind of met people in life through my way or through other venues, I work with them. So I just met a guy over the weekend that he prints things for a living, right? So there’s so much opportunity for us to collaborate with printing things. My audience is interested in topics of pharmacy and infectious diseases. So being entrepreneurial is one of the definitely keys to success here and also not being stuck in your ways, being able to evaluate things, and then accept feedback. If it’s not going well and someone tells you it’s not going well, take that advice and see how you can make it better and ask them, “Hey, how can I make this better?”

[00:27:13] T. ULBRICH: Yes, great advice, Tim. I think for people that are listening, and they hear 25,000 people on an email list and again not getting paralyzed from Jump Street. I think I love what you shared of it was a spreadsheet to begin with, right? I’ve shared before on this podcast that the first 100 subscribers on our email list were a combination of text messages and Facebook messages and LinkedIn posts that I had, and that eventually got added to an email software. Eventually, we added automations. Eventually, we added opt-in funnels and all those things, project management, social media management tools, things like that. But just getting started, you can do a lot of that manually. Get some of the things off the ground. Then as you get momentum, you can build out the systems and the processes that will help with efficiencies. 

Tim, if someone is listening and they are on the very front end of this, so let’s just pick another specialty that’s out there, and they’re thinking, “I’d love to build something in this domain, similar to what I see Tim doing with IDStewardship, Kelley doing with oncology. I also think about what Jimmy Pruitt’s doing with acute care out there in pharmacy,” like what advice would you have with them at the very beginning of their journey? If you think back to where you were when you started in 2015, like now looking back seven years later, like what piece of advice would you have to share with them as they get started on this journey?

[00:28:33] T. GAUTHIER: Well, I mean, first of all, not just because I – If I say something, it doesn’t mean it’s necessarily true. So it’s just my opinion on some of this. So feel free to disagree. But one thing I feel is that, especially when it comes to social media, people go on Twitter, on TikTok, on Facebook because they’re looking for things for themselves. So if you’re not putting out things that are going to be interesting to your audience, then your audience is not going to grow like they should. 

So everything that you do, no matter what you’re doing, should be aligned with why your audience is going to that area, and that’s going to help to get them to like it, get them to share it, which is very, very difficult in the pharmacy profession. We’re like 90% passive users. We love to learn. 

[00:29:11] T. ULBRICH: That’s right. 

[00:29:13] T. GAUTHIER: I’ll post something on Facebook, man, and it’s like five likes. But then I’ll see that I got 250 link clicks. So it’s very interesting. From an outside, you might look at my Facebook page or something and say, “Oh, I got a couple of likes or clicks,” and you can’t see the clicks, but you’ll only see a couple of likes, and they got lots of clicks. So it’s kind of one thing that’s important, I think, as you’re starting off. 

Another thing about starting off would probably be considered like long-term how you’re going to grow, and you’re talking about the design of your product. I think that core message and that core what am I doing here is really important. Over time, is that going to change? Because if it’s focused on something that’s relevant now like COVID, for example, or moneypox, maybe that’s not relevant in two years from now.

[00:29:59] T. ULBRICH: It’s pretty cool. Yep, absolutely. That’s great stuff, Tim. I’m excited for our listeners, if they’re not already aware to follow the journey, and I hope they’ll opt in your newsletter. Where is the best place that folks can go to follow you and the journey and the work that you’re doing?

[00:30:16] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. I mean, definitely IDStewardship.com, and you can sign up for our newsletter there or just follow along on Instagram or our Facebook or goods areas. Twitter, you can find me there as well. It’s a little bit more focused on infectious diseases and as a whole and staying up with the literature on Twitter. So either of those but the newsletters are really a good place to start.

[00:30:37] T. ULBRICH: Awesome. Thanks, Tim. Appreciate you taking time to come on the show.

[00:30:39] T. GAUTHIER: Oh, it was my pleasure. We’ve worked together for so long over the years. It’s really a wonderful opportunity for me, and I appreciate your time.

[00:30:46] T. ULBRICH: Thank you. 

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[00:30:47] T. ULBRICH: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you, again, for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week. 

[END]

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YFP 346: Developing a Budget That Works…And You Don’t Hate with Tim Ulbrich


Tim Ulbrich shares the importance of setting a budget for achieving your financial goals and five steps to help you get started.

Episode Summary

In this week’s episode, we learn all about one of the key first steps to mastering your money: creating a budget. You’ll learn how to implement a budgeting system that not only works, but is also enjoyable. Tim Ulbrich, YFP Founder and CEO shares a practical five-step process to help you get started. A budget isn’t a restrictive tool, but an important instrument that can empower you on your journey toward financial well-being and help align your money with your vision for a rich and fulfilling life.

About Today’s Guest

Tim Ulbrich is the Co-Founder and CEO of Your Financial Pharmacist. Founded in 2015, YFP is a fee-only financial planning firm and connects with the YFP community of 15,000+ pharmacy professionals via the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast podcast, blog, website resources and speaking engagements. To date, YFP has partnered with 75+ organizations to provide personal finance education.

Tim received his Doctor of Pharmacy degree from Ohio Northern University and completed postgraduate residency training at The Ohio State University. He spent 9 years on faculty at Northeast Ohio Medical University prior to joining Ohio StateUniversity College of Pharmacy in 2019 as Clinical Professor and Director of the Master’s in Health-System Pharmacy Administration Program.

Tim is the host of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast which has more than 1 million downloads. Tim is also the co-author of Seven Figure Pharmacist: How to Maximize Your Income, Eliminate Debt and Create Wealth. Tim has presented to over 200 pharmacy associations, colleges, and groups on various personal finance topics including debt management, investing, retirement planning, and financial well-being.

Key Points from the Episode

  • Budgeting for financial freedom. [0:00]
  • Pharmacist financial success and budgeting. [3:51]
  • Financial health check and budgeting. [7:32]
  • Setting a financial vision and budget. [11:40]
  • Budgeting methods for personal finance. [16:04]
  • Budgeting and financial planning. [20:54]
  • Budgeting and financial planning for pharmacists. [26:06]

Episode Highlights

“So I think it’s safe to say that most pharmacists didn’t spend six to eight plus years training to get into this profession, to work hard to find themselves living paycheck to paycheck.” – Tim Ulbrich

“So, if we can identify in advance what our goals are, and we can identify how much we have to allocate towards those goals, then the next step we’ll talk about is how to actually make sure we distribute them accordingly. All the sudden, we’re thinking in a way that we are pre funding our goals, right really important, rather than waiting to see what’s left over at the end of the month.” -Tim Ulbrich

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich  00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, I’m digging into how you can develop a budgeting system and process that works and is one that you don’t hate. During the episode, we’re walking through five steps that you can follow to implement your own budget. But before doing that, we’ll discuss why it’s crucial to do a financial vitals check along with some vision setting to get clear on what it looks like to be living your rich life. 

Tim Ulbrich  00:32

Alright, YFP community, I’m really excited to invite you to our next webinar on March 7, at 8:30pm/Eastern: Budgeting Blueprint, What Zero Based Budgeting Is, Why It Works and How to Start One. This webinar is different than webinars we’ve done before. Not only am I gonna dive into the ins and outs of the zero based budget and the power behind assigning each dollar a job, but I’m going to be doing a live demo of a zero based budget using the YFP budget template. And we’re going to be anonymously featuring real pharmacists’ budgets for you to see. So here’s the deal. First, I want you to register for the webinar. It’s free, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budgetwebinar to save your seat. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budgetwebinar. Second, we’re gonna be giving away three $50 amazon gift cards to pharmacists who submit their budget to be featured and who attend the webinar live. Here’s how you can do that: you go to download your FREE zero based budgeting template at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budget again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budget, then go ahead and fill out your budget with your numbers. If you’ve never used a zero based budget before, don’t worry instructions are included in the template that will help you walk through the process. Make sure to save your budget, send us an email with that budget attached at [email protected]. And make sure to include the word “budget” in the subject line so we can quickly identify your template. In the email, I would love for you to also share any additional information that would be helpful for me to know, whether you’re a single income earner, whether you have dual incomes in the household, if you have any children, where you live. And of course, if you have any other questions that you’d like me to answer as it relates to your budget template. Then make sure to attend the webinar live for your chance to win one of the three $50 amazon gift cards. If you don’t want to turn your budget, no problem make sure to register for the webinar and we’ll send you the replay if you can’t join us live. Can’t wait to see you there and see the real life budgets from pharmacists in the YFP community. 

Tim Ulbrich  02:37

Hi guys, Tim Ulbrich here. This week, we’re gonna be talking all about how to develop a budgeting system that works and hopefully is one that you don’t hate. Now if we’re being honest with ourselves, who gets a little nauseous when the topic of budgeting comes up? I mean, besides the future financial nerds out there, not many are a fan of the whole budgeting thing. Quote, “It takes too much time.” “I already know how much I spend.” “I don’t know how to make one and follow it.” “I’m afraid of what I might find when I track my expenses.” “I don’t like to be so restricted.” “I make enough money so I don’t need a budget.” These are just some of the most common reasons that I hear for all of the hate surrounding budgeting. So in that light, what if we thought of the budget instead as a mechanism by which we achieve our financial goals? It’s simply the roadmap. It’s the execution plan that we have for the vision for living our rich life. It’s the way that we’re going to achieve what we set out to achieve. Now what are the most common things I hear pharmacists say is, “Tim, I make a great income. But I don’t feel like I’m progressing financially.” And one of the greatest threats to a pharmacist long term financial success is believing that a six figure income equals financial success. That mindset I can guarantee you will hinder progress. And here’s why if you take the average pharmacists salary, a reasonable take home pay after taxes after health insurance premiums after any type of employer retirement contribution is about $7,000 per month, right, give or take. And if you assume the average student loan debt on a 10 year standard repayment, plus let’s just say a $400,000 home and interest rates today that adds up to about $4,500 per month or 65% of a pharmacist take home pay. Let me say that again. Between the average student loan debt and a $400,000. home on a 30 year mortgage. Right. I know some people live in higher cost living areas, some people live in lower cost of living areas. That adds up to about $4,500 per month of committed expenses or looking at it another way about 65% of that take home pay number that I just mentioned. That means we have about $2500 left each month for everything else, right all the other home related costs, property taxes, homeowners insurance, upkeep, of course food, clothing, car payments, gas, other debt payments, insurance premiums, additional savings, and not to be forgotten the more enjoyable discretionary expenses like vacation, experiences, eating out, giving, and so forth. So I think it’s safe to say that most pharmacists didn’t spend six to eight plus years training to get into this profession, to work hard to find themselves living paycheck to paycheck. Now, obviously, some pharmacist households have more than one income, so we have to factor that in. But regardless, we can see that the take home pay of a pharmacist only goes so far. And that’s why it’s critical that we shift the mindset that pharmacists make a great income. Yes, it’s a good income, one that is more than $50,000 higher per year than the average household income in the United States. So it’s a good income, objectively speaking. And so it’s a tool and it’s a pretty good one at that. But without a plan, it is going to have significant limits. So shifting your mindset around how much you make, and how far that income will go is the most important thing that you can do for your financial plan. Why? Because everything else will flow from that mindset, how you save, big purchase decisions, how you handle your debt, ideas for growing your income, and so on. So with that in mind, with the plan that we need to have one, right, we need to have some direction to make sure that we’re achieving our long term goals.

Let’s talk to you five steps to developing and automating a budget that works and hopefully is one that you don’t hate. Step number one is we have to do a financial vital check. Alright, before we get into the vision, before we get into the budget, we have to assess where we are at today. And sometimes this is painful. Sometimes this is exciting, right? Depending on the progress that we’ve made thus far. We need to really honestly assess are we on track? Are we ahead? Are we behind? And what does that even mean? And we don’t want to start running forward until we know where we’re at. And we want to find out what path we want to be running on. And a great starting point, certainly not the only place to be but a great starting point for the financial binos check is to really be tracking your net worth on a regular basis. Now, if you’ve been listening to the show, you’ve heard me talk about net worth many times before. Net worth is simply your assets or what you own, minus your liabilities or what you owe. And as I’ve shared often in my journey, paying off $200,000 of student loan debt and coming out of a significant amount of debt really into a period of trying to grow that net worth. This was a significant part of our journey, really shifting that mindset from income to being a tool, right income not being the end all to really being able to move that income to growing assets, paying down liabilities, and therefore growing net worth.

Now Dr. Tom Stanley in the book, The Millionaire Next Door, which if you haven’t read before, I’d highly recommend it. He says that one of the reasons that millionaires are economically successful is that they think differently. One of the reasons that millionaires are economically successful is that they think differently. And part of what he’s talking about here is this concept of income versus net worth . They recognize that income is a tool, but income by itself does not mean financial success. Now, what should be our net worth? Right? That’s an interesting question, what should be our net worth? And of course the answer that is it depends. But Dr. Tom Stanley in the book, The Millionaire Next Door gives us a calculation for expected net worth. And he says that your expected net worth is your age times your gross annual income divided by 10.

For example, if we had a 45 year old pharmacists making $140,000 per year, if we took 45 as their age, we multiplied it by $140,000 of income, we divide that by 10. That’s $630,000 would be their expected net worth for that 45 year old pharmacist making $140,000. Now in addition to net worth, that’s just one calculation. We certainly don’t want to hang our hat on that. There are other areas inside of this financial vitals check that we should be thinking about. Things like, where are we at with the emergency fund? Is that a box you’ve already checked? Is that something we need to focus on? Perhaps you looked at that several years ago, and now we need to update that because expenses have gone up. So where are we at with the emergency fund? That’s one part. Do we have revolving credit card debt? If so, typically, because of where those interest rates are we going to focus on that before we look at other parts of the plan. Have we landed on, for those that have student loans, have we landed on an optimized student loan repayment strategy? Critically important, many different pathways we can go. We know that certain strategies can be more advantageous than others in terms of cash flow, what we pay out of pocket, potentially forgiveness. So have you critically evaluated your loan repayment strategy? Other areas of the financial vitals check are we set with things like own occupation, Long Term Disability Insurance, or for those that need life insurance, we have a good term life insurance policy that’s going to cover the needs that we have, are we on track with retirement savings? Right?

We’ve talked about all these topics on the show before these areas, why it’s important to start here with the financial vitals check is all of these areas are going to potentially impact cash flow, and give us insight into where we want to prioritize and focus with the budget because you’ll see here in a moment, then we talk about how to execute on the budget. One of the things we need to know is what are the goals that we want to include in our budget? What are we focusing on? What are we prioritizing on in doing this vitals check is going to help us in part, identify what those areas are. Now if you want more information on this concept of financial vitals checking, you want to do your own financial vitals check, we have a neat tool available for free. If you go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/financial-fitness-test. That’s our financial fitness test, again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/financial-fitness-test that will take you to a quick interactive tool, and it’ll help you identify what some of these areas are to focus on. Again, we’ll link a link to that in the show notes. So that’s step one, doing the financial vital check. 

Tim Ulbrich  11:40

Step number two, again, we’re not even in the budget yet, right? Step number two is setting the vision. I firmly believe, we firmly believe, that without a compelling vision, the budget will feel restrictive, right. Without a compelling vision, the budget will feel restrictive. And I can almost guarantee you as well that you will run out of gas at some point in time, if you don’t have a compelling vision, only to find yourself and the whiplash between, in and out of being intentional with your finances. Like we tend to approach other areas of our life, right, such as fitness, such as our diet, and so forth. If we have a compelling vision, think of that as the engine for the financial plan, especially if you are in a season of grinding it out or cutting back, which hopefully is temporary. But especially in those seasons, we want to have a very compelling vision that’s going to drive us forward and keep us motivated. So first things first, what does your rich life look like? What does your, keyword there, your rich life look like? I love this quote quote from Roy Bennett. He says, “Dream your own dreams achieve your own goals. Your journey is your own and unique.” That’s so important here, when we think about setting the vision for living a rich life. When we talk about our financial plan and our goals. It’s so easy to get caught up into what are other people doing or the comparison game. What does it mean for your family to be living a rich life.  If we can get clear on that -something we’ve talked about on this show before – that’s gonna help us really have a strong plan when it comes to how we’re not only going to implement the budget, but how we’re also going to be able to achieve other financial goals like long term savings, and retirement. Don’t underestimate this step. Step number two, setting the vision think of this really as the window in which we’re looking through as we’re making any of the individual financial decisions. 

Tim Ulbrich  13:44

Alright, step number three, is I want you to track back your spending 90 days. So before we get into the spreadsheets, before we start to set the budget going forward, I want you to track back you’re spending 90 days right? This is the audit of the expenses to identify how have we been spending our money before we set what the goal is going forward. Now, this is really easy to do. Thankfully, in 2024. Many banks, many tools, software options that are out there, that we can quickly pull statements from credit cards, from debit cards, from various accounts, and be able to aggregate these and many of them even automatically will categorize them for you. Sometimes you gotta clean that up. But this is a process that we think is really important before we set the plan going forward. Now 90 days, I believe is an important window of time, because in any given month, right in any 30 day period, we can have some anomalies with the budget that might not be “normal.”, right to the month that we would have throughout the year. And so 90 days is going to help to average that out a little bit. That’s one of the reasons we want to look back 90 days but also by looking back 90 days we’re going to start to identify some patterns of things that we might want to adjust or at least be aware of as we set the budget and plan going forward. So that’s step number three is we’re going to track back 90 days categorize those expenses, really look at what is our spending patterns, what’s the spending behaviors? And there, we’re going to quickly identify what’s the difference between our expenses, and what’s the differences between our take home pay, right, and that’s going to help us identify what we have to work with for the budget.

Tim Ulbrich  15:21

 Alright, step number four is then actually setting the budget. Now, this is intentional that we don’t start here, right, I firmly believe from experience from working with many pharmacists on this that if we start with a budget, we tend to lose that momentum that I’ve been talking about. And especially if we have two people that are working on this together, where maybe they’re not on the same page financially, we want to first get clear on the vision, right? If we can have the shared dreams, the shared vision, I’ll never say the budgeting process is easy. But it’s more palatable when we’re working then from that mindset where, okay, now the budget is simply the execution of the vision that we’ve agreed upon. Right. So we don’t want to start here with a budget.

Of course, there are many ways to budget, some of you might be familiar with budgeting methods, such as the 50,30, 20 budget, which is about 50% of your expenses should be for essential, or excuse me, 50% of your income for essential expenses, about 30% of your income for discretionary expenses, those are the things that are the nice to haves, but we could cut them if we needed to cut them, and then about 20%, that’s going to go towards savings or investments. So there’s different models and frameworks of that. But many of you may be aware of something like that. There’s also budgeting methods that are known as like the no budget budget, which simply means that you identify, you know, what are those critical expenses that you have to fund each month, and then you just don’t overspend your income beyond that, right. And so that’s a method that we see people that are a little bit further in their career, that have a more significant rhythm and cadence to what they’ve been doing over a long period of time. They have a good handle on their expenses and their goals and whether or not they’re on track, that might be something that they’re not tracking in such a granular way. Okay, so lots of different ways to budget I’m going to focus though not on the 50-30-20 budget, not on the no budget budget, I’m gonna focus on the zero based budget, because I believe that while this isn’t for everyone, I believe that for many people that are trying to get either on track, let’s say you’re just getting started in your career, and you’re trying to develop a system that makes sure you’re setting yourself up for a good long term plan and that you have a good foundation, I think this is a great way to get started. And then you can pull back over time, or for those listening saying, hey, maybe you need to get back on track, or I’ve kind of lost my way. And I want to have a season of really getting refocused. I think the zero based budget method can be a way to do that.

Now, as a reminder, if you want to download the YFP budget template, so you can work along side as you’re listening, hopefully, you’re not driving as you’re doing this, you can go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budget to get that Excel template for free. Okay, so inside of this step of the zero based budget, I’m gonna walk you through five steps of how to complete the zero based budget. Step number one is you have to know your take home pay. Now, as obvious as that sounds, this can be challenging sometimes, right, especially for folks that are just getting started. You know, I see this often from a transition where someone’s going from student to resident or student to fellow and then they’re going into the first job, right? There’s that change that’s happening, or individuals that are going from one income to two incomes in the household, that certainly can be a season of change as well, or for those those seen that variable income. Right? Whether that be you know, side hustle income, additional income, or you don’t work consistent salary types of positions. This can be sometimes challenging, but we have to know on average per month, and for those of you that have variable income, we want to be conservative in this estimate. We have to know on average per month, what is our take home pay, right? This is the amount that you’ll be working with each month to cover your expenses and to put to work to achieve your financial goals. The take home pay or net pay is the amount that shows up on your paycheck, every pay period after taxes after health care insurance premiums that you pay after any retirement contributions and any other deductions that are withdrawn from your base pay or your gross pay. Okay, so for students, any students that are listening, right, this could also potentially include things like student loan disbursement money, plus any earned income that you would have in internships and so forth. So that’s step number one is that we have to determine our take home pay.

Step number two is we then want to account for and subtract our necessary or essential expenses. Now, the definition of necessary can be debated but for the purpose of this activity, let’s include the following as necessary or essential expenses. These would be things like housing, transportation, food, utilities, insurance premiums -if that’s applicable-and any minimum payments on your debts that you need to make. Now in this step, consider your food expense as what you need as an essential right, anything else that would be dining out, we’re going to include in discretionary in step number three in this budgeting exercise. Okay, so that’s step number two is we account for all of our essential or necessary expenses. And we’re working down from our take home pay.

Step number three, then is we’re going to determine how much we spend on discretionary expenses. Think of discretionary expenses as the nice to haves, but in a true financial emergency, they could be cut, if you needed to cut them, right, these would be things like eating out, you know, trips, extra trips, or shopping, extra payments on debt, clothing, expenses, beyond the minimum, you know, housing upgrades, and so forth. Right, it’s very easy to justify any one of these as essential. So it’s important here to be honest with ourselves, when evaluating this category. If you have no idea how much you spend on these types of expenses in a month, a good place to start is to review these from again, as we did earlier, looking back 90 days to review what you’re spending in these areas in various statements and categorize these whether that’s credit card statements, debit card statements, whatever might be the source of those expenses. Now, I want to emphasize here that discretionary expenses are not bad, right in any way, shape, or form. I think sometimes we get to this step, and we start to have some self judgment, and a little bit of questioning, Well, should I be spending money here? Should it be spending money there? Discretionary expenses, and of themselves are not bad, we’re just separating them from essential expenses as we look at this exercise. In fact, they’re an important part a very important part of living the rich life that we want to live, right? Yes, we’ve got to pay down debt. Yes, we have to save and invest for the future. But we also want to enjoy some of these things along the way. So that’s step number three is determining how much to spend on discretionary.

Step number four, then, is calculating what we call disposable income. Remember, we started with take home pay, we subtracted essential expenses, we subtracted discretionary expenses. And now what we’re trying to determine is what is the disposable income. So this is the amount that we calculate by taking, again, the take home pay, subtracting essential and discretionary expenses. This number is the amount that you have to put towards other financial goals, whether that’s building an emergency fund, whether it’s saving for kids college, whether that’s additional retirement savings, down payment on a home, second property, whatever might be the case. So for example, if you have a take home pay of $7,000, you have necessary expenses of $3,000, discretionary expenses of $2,000, you would have leftover $2,000 of disposable income that we can identify and work with and put towards other goals. Now, why this budgeting method, I think works well and hopefully is one that you don’t hate is we are doing this proactively, before we actually earn the income. Right? We’re doing this proactively before we actually earn the income. So, if we can identify in advance what our goals are, and we can identify how much we have to allocate towards those goals, then the next step we’ll talk about is how to actually make sure we distribute them accordingly. All the sudden, we’re thinking in a way that we are pre funding our goals, right really important, rather than waiting to see what’s left over at the end of the month. And that is what we typically see is sure this takes time to get set up. But when we have this system humming, when we see that we have disposable income, or we thought about that to assign to our various goals, and we know that we’re funding those goals, we can really see some feelings of momentum and progress that are taking place. So that’s step number four, calculating your expense, disposable income.

And then step number five is allocating that disposable income to your goals, right. This is where I really feel like the magic happens: allocating your disposable income to your financial goals. And again, we’re doing this proactively before we earn the income, or at least preparing for this. And then once we earn the income, we’re going to allocate accordingly. So if the amount of disposable income, right, in step number four, when we calculated that disposable income, if the amount of that disposable income isn’t enough to meet the goals that you’ve set and the timeframe that is desirable to you, or you find out that you have a deficit here, well, this is where really where the rubber meets the road. We’ve got some work to do. Right, we’ve got two options. We can adjust our goals, I guess three options, we can adjust our goals, we can cut our expenses, or we can try to grow our income and perhaps it might be a combination of those three, but this is really where we shine a light on the reality of where we are at and so often with the financial plan. The stress comes from living in the dark, right wondering, I hope, I wish, I dream are we going to be able to do this? And we’re going to be able to do that? Really, this system is telling us where are we at? And what are the areas that we want to focus on? And what are the dollars that we have available to do that if we can’t meet those two things? What adjustments do we need to make? Do we need to adjust our goals? Do we need to cut our expenses or, and or are their options to grow our income? Now, the reason why this is called a zero based budget is because at the end of step number five, where we’re allocating our disposable income to our goals, we should have “spent”, “spent” because we’re doing this proactively, our entire income, meaning that every dollar has been assigned, and we have a $0 balance remaining, right, because we’ve allocated every dollar to essential expenses, discretionary expenses, and then ultimately, to the goals that we’ve determined are most important.

Alright, so those are the five steps of creating the zero based budget. Now, if we zoom back out, remember, where did we start? We started with doing a financial vitals check. Where are we at today? What what is our net worth position? What are the areas of the financial plan that we want to focus on? We then talked about setting the vision, right? What does it mean, for us? Our unique plan and vision for living a rich life? How are we spending our money? How are we spending our time? We then talked about tracking back 90 days, so we can get an idea of what our spending is in various categories of the budget on average each month. And then we talked about setting the budget, right. And that was the five steps I just reviewed with a zero base budget.

Tim Ulbrich  26:31

Now the final step of all this part number five years really tracking and automating this system. Now how you choose to track this really doesn’t matter to me, at the end of the day, it’s the system that works best for you. And is the system that is feasible for you to keep going, at least for the foreseeable future. So when I asked a group of pharmacists, hey, what system do you use to track? You know, some people use some of the fancy softwares and tools that are out there, such as YNAB, or Every Dollar, just a couple examples, some use a tool that’s provided to them through their bank or the credit card that they use. Most people I would say, use probably a Google spreadsheet or some type of Excel template. So how you track it to me, doesn’t necessarily matter. But the second part of this final step, right, I mentioned, track and automate. Track and automate when it comes to automating your financial plan. It is so obvious, so effective, so easy to implement, but so many people aren’t optimizing this.

Think of automation as the mechanism by which you’re going to put your budget that we just said, we’re going to put this to work for us each and every month, because we’ve already done the hard work to proactively define what are our goals? And how are we going to prioritize and fund those goals. Now, I cover this in detail at length in Episode 341, where I talked about five financial moves to make in 2024, I talked about the concept of automation, I talked about exactly what the system looks like for Jess and I and our own financial plan. So make sure to go back and listen to that and how you can begin to implement automation as a part of your financial plan. Alright, so there you have it. Five steps that you can use to implement a budgeting system and process that not only hope, hopefully helps you achieve your financial goals. But I also hope makes this topic just a little bit more palatable. So we talked about the importance of doing that financial vital check, setting the vision, tracking back 90 days, setting the budget, and then developing a process to track and automate that along the way.

Alright, as we wrap up today, an important reminder about our webinar coming up on March 7 at 8:30pm/Eastern, Budgeting Blueprint, What Zero-Based Budgeting Is, Why It Works, and How to Start One. I’m really excited to walk you through in a visual manner how you can implement your own zero based budget as well as to anonymously feature other real pharmacists’ budgets for you to see. So to get started, you can register for the webinar for free again, you visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budgetwebinar again that yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budgetwebinar to save your seat. We’re gonna be giving away three $50 Amazon gift cards of pharmacists who submit their budget to be featured and who attend the webinar live. So as a reminder to have your template, your budget template featured, you can download that free zero based budget template yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budget, fill it out with your own numbers, send it back to us attach it [email protected], in the subject line make sure you note budget and then if you have any questions in your own budget template you want me to address during the webinar make sure to include those in the email as well. Alright, thanks so much for listening to this week’s episode of the YFP Podcast. We’ll catch you again next week. Take care.

Tim Ulbrich  29:51

 As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

 

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YFP 339: YFP Podcast Replay – Why Negotiation is an Important Part of Your Financial Plan


Tim Ulbrich & Tim Baker talk about negotiation, why it’s an important part of the financial plan, the goals of negotiation, and tips for conducting an effective negotiation.

Episode Summary

Tim Baker joins Tim Ulbrich on this episode to dig into all things negotiation. Negotiation is the process of discovery and a way to advocate for yourself and what your needs are. Tim Baker explains that negotiation is an important part of your financial plan for many reasons. He explains that settling for a lower salary can have a significant impact on your present and future finances because you may accrue less in retirement savings and potentially other investments. However, negotiation doesn’t just lie in your salary. You can also negotiate benefits like flex scheduling, paid time off as well as potentially parental leave and professional development opportunities, among others. 

Tim Baker shares that 99% of hiring managers are expecting new hires to negotiate and build their initial offer as such. Many don’t end up negotiating because they don’t want to risk the offer being revoked, but Tim says that the majority of the time you should present a counter offer.  

Tim then digs into the stages of the negotiation process that include the interview, receiving an offer, presenting a counter offer and accepting the offer and position. He shares many strategies and tips for each stage as well as additional techniques to use throughout the process.

About Today’s Guest

Tim Baker is the Co-Founder and Director of Financial Planning at Your Financial Pharmacist. Founded in 2015, YFP is a fee-only financial planning firm and connects with the YFP community of 12,000+ pharmacy professionals via the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast podcast, blog, website resources and speaking engagements. 

Tim attended the United States Military Academy majoring in International Relations and branching Armor. After his military career, he worked as a logistician with a major retailer and a construction company. After much deliberation, Tim decided to make a pivot in his career and joined a small independent financial planning firm in 2012. In 2016, he launched his own financial planning firm Script Financial and in 2019 merged with Your Financial Pharmacist. Tim now lives in Columbus, Ohio with his wife (Shay), two kids (Olivia and Liam), and dog (Benji).

Key Points from the Episode

  • Negotiation can be a key part of the financial plan
  • Income is the lifeblood of the financial plan. 
  • Learn ways to grow and protect income. 
  • Advocating for yourself is important, and it’s not always just about salary.
  • A lower salary can have long term consequence down the road. 
  • Employers expect some negotiations with candidates. 
  • Salary alone should not be looked at in a vacuum; many factors can contribute a more desirable work positon.
  • A lot of time and effort goes into finding the right position for a job, so when an offer is made it is likely not going to be derailed by candidate asking for a higher salary.
  • A good candidate asks questions and listens well. 
  • Make sure you get offers in writing. 
  • Never lie in an interview about current salary range.
  • Using a precise number versus a rounded number in a counter offer has more success.
  • Using the anchoring technique to provide a salary range can help you land the salary you ultimately desire.
  • Asking a calibrated question is a question with really no fixed answer that gives the illusion of control.
  • Using “how”, “when”, “why” calibrated questions can be helpful in showing what you’re really trying to achieve without causing emotions to rise.
  • Mirroring technique is repeating 1-3 words back to the employer to show you are listening well and in turn, making them feel respected and understood.
  • Labeling and validating emotions technique allow you to hear what is going on in an organization while remaining neutral.
  • The accusation audit is a technique that’s used to identify and label probably the worst thing that your counterpart could say about it.

Episode Highlights

“Yeah, so negotiation, you know, it’s really a process of discovery. It really shouldn’t be viewed as a battle. It’s really a process of discovery. It’s kind of that awkward conversation that you should be obligated to have because you know, if you don’t want to advocate for yourself professionally, who will?” – Tim Baker 

“And I believe this first stat comes from SHRM, which is the Society for Human Resource Management. So I think this is like the biggest association for like HR and Human Resource personnel in the country. And the stat that I use is that 99% of hiring managers expect prospective hires to negotiate. So if you think about that, you know, the overwhelming majority expect you the prospective hire to negotiate. And they build their initial offers as such.” – Tim Baker

“So typically most jobs, there’s — obviously there’s an application process, there’s interviews, there’s second interviews, there’s maybe on-site visits, there’s kind of looking at all the candidates and then extending offers. If you get to that offer stage, you’re pretty — they’ve identified as you’re the person that they want. So sometimes a little bit of back-and-forth is not going to derail any such deal. So it’s really, really important to understand that.” -Tim Baker

“So when you get that interview, what I say is typically you want to talk less, listen more and learn more. Typically, the person that is talking the most is not in control of the conversation. The one that’s listening and asking good questions is in control.” -Tim Ulbrich

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

(INTRO)

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker, welcome back to the show. 

Tim Baker: Yeah, happy to be here. How’s it going, Tim?

Tim Ulbrich: It’s going. Excited to talk negotiation, something we discuss a lot in presentations, a lot I know that you discuss with clients as a part of the financial plan, but we haven’t addressed it directly on the show before. So I’m excited that we get a chance to dig into this topic. And we know that negotiation can carry a lot of power and can be used across the board really in life, right? It could be negotiating terms for a new or existing job position, buying a car, buying a house, negotiating with your kids or spouse — kidding, not kidding as we’ll talk about here in a little bit. So we’re going to focus predominantly on salary negotiation, but really these techniques can be applied to many areas of the financial plan and really life as a whole. So Tim, I know that for you, negotiation is a key piece of the financial plan. And you and our CFPs over at YFP talk about negotiation in the context of financial planning, which I would say is probably not the norm of the financial planning industry and services. So let’s start with this: Why is negotiation such an important piece of the financial plan?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think if we look at YFP’s mission, YFP’s mission is to empower pharmacists to achieve financial freedom. So I think the building blocks of that really is kind of what we do day-in and day-out with clients at YFP Planning. And what I typically, or the way that we typically approach a financial plan is we really want to help the client grow and protect their income, which is the lifeblood of the financial plan. Without income, nothing moves. But we know that probably more importantly than that is grow and protect the balance sheet, the net worth, which means increasing assets efficiently and decreasing liabilities efficiently and ultimately moving the net worth number in the right direction. So those are both quantitative things. But then qualitatively, we want to make sure that we’re keeping all the goals in mind, so grow and protect income and net worth while keep the goals in mind. So to me, that’s our jam, you know? So when I say — when somebody asks me a question like we do the Ask a YFP CFP, and I always say, “Well, it depends.” A lot of it really depends on those foundational, like where are we at with the balance sheet and where do we want to go? Meaning what are our goals? What’s our why? What’s the life plan, what’s a wealthy life for you and how can we support that with the financial plan? So to go back to your question, my belief is that the income is a big part of that. 

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Tim Baker: And what I’ve found working with many, many pharmacists is sometimes pharmacists are not great at advocating for themselves. You know, most of the people that I talk to when we talk about salary negotiation, they’re like, eh, I’m just thankful I have a job, and I’m in agreement with that. But sometimes a little bit of a negotiation and having some of the skills that we’ll talk about today to better advocate for yourself is important. And a lot of this stuff is not necessarily just for salary. It can be for a lot of different things. But to me, what I saw as a need here, same thing like most financial planners don’t walk you through kind of home purchase and what that looks like because most financial planners are working with people in their 50s, 60s and 70s. So that was a need for a lot of our clients who were like, “Hey, Tim, I’m buying this house. I don’t really know where to start. So we provide some education and some recommendations and advice around that. Same thing with salary, I kept seeing like well, maybe I took the job too quickly or I didn’t advocate for myself, so that’s really where we want to provide some education and advice, again, to have a better position from an income perspective. 

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think it’s a great tool to have in your toolbag, you know. And I think as we’ll talk about here, the goal is not to be an expert negotiator. There’s lots of resources that are out there that can help with this and make it tangible and practical, one of which we’ll draw a lot of the information today, I know you talk with clients, a resource I love, “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss. But I’m glad you mentioned, you know, I think there is often a sentiment — I know I’ve felt in myself where you know what, I’m glad to have a position, I’m glad to be making a good income. But that can be true and you still can be a good person and you still can negotiate and advocate for yourself and the value you bring to the organization. 

Tim Baker: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: So I hope folks will hear that and not necessarily think that negotiation is bad and as we’ll talk about here in a moment, I think really can have a significant impact when you think about it as it relates to earnings over your career and what those additional earnings could mean. So Tim, break it down for us. What is negotiation and really, digging further, why is it important?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so negotiation, you know, it’s really a process of discovery. It really shouldn’t be viewed as a battle. It’s really a process of discovery. It’s kind of that awkward conversation that you should be obligated to have because you know, if you don’t want to advocate for yourself professionally, who will? And maybe you have a good mentor or something like that, but to me, the negotiation, again, is really to discover what you want and kind of what your counterpart, which might be a boss or a hiring manager or something like that. And it’s really important because settling for a lower salary can have really major financial consequences, both immediately and down the road. And you typically — raises that you receive are typically based on a percentage of your salary, so hey, we’re going to give you a 3% raise this year, a 5% raise. If you start off with a salary that you’re not happy with, then obviously that’s a problem. Accrue less in retirement savings, so that TSP, that 401k, 403b, again, you typically are going to get some type of match in a lot of cases, and then you’re going to put a percentage. So again, that could potentially be lower. But it’s not just about salary. It can be — I think another mistake that sometimes people make is that they’ll say, oh wow, I was making $125,000 and I’m taking a job that’s paying me $135,000 and they take a major step back on some of the non-salary things like benefits and flex scheduling and time off and things like that. But you know, you really want to make sure that compensation package that you have, you know, you’re happy with. Because underpaid really can make you feel resentful over the long run. So you want to make sure that you’re, again, right now we’re filming in the midst of a pandemic and the economy and the job market is tough, but you still want to advocate for yourself and make sure you’re getting the best compensation package that you can. 

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and as we’ll talk about here in a little bit, I think if we frame this differently, then maybe our understanding, our preconceived beliefs — you know, you mentioned it’s not a battle, you know, I think the goal is that you’re trying to come to an agreement or an understanding. And as we’ll talk about here, many employers are likely expecting this. And that number, in terms of those that are expecting versus those that are actually engaging in the conversation from an employee standpoint is very different. 

Tim Baker: Sure. 

Tim Ulbrich: So I think that might help give us confidence to be able to initiate some of those, and we’ll talk about strategies to do that. I do want to give one example, though, Tim, real quick. You had mentioned obviously if somebody earns less and receive small raises or they accrue less in retirement savings, that can have a significant impact. And I went down the rabbit hole prepping for this episode of just looking at a quick example of this where you have two folks that let’s say they both start working at the age of 28, they retire at their 65, so same starting point, same retirement age. Let’s assume they get a 3% cost of living adjustment every year for their career just to keep it simple. The only difference here is that one starts at $100,000 and one starts at $105,000. So because of either what they asked for in negotiations, whatever be the case, one starts $5,000 greater than the other. And if you play this out, same starting age, same ending age, same cost of living adjustments, one starts at a higher point, when it’s all said and done, one individual has about $300,000 more of earnings than the other. And this of course does not include differences that you also have because of higher salary. If you had a match, that would increase, that would compound, that would grow. If you were to switch jobs, you’re at a better point to now negotiate for a higher salary, all other benefits that aren’t included. But the significance of the starting point I think is something to really look at those numbers that often where you start can inform where you’re going, not only from cost of living adjustments but also future employment, right? So we know that where you start if you get a 3% raise, it’s of course going to be based off that number. If you decide to leave that employer and you go to another one, what do they ask you? How much did you make? You’re using that number. So that starting point is so critical, and I hope that new practitioners might even find some confidence in that to be able to engage in discussions knowing how significant those numbers can be over a career. So in that one example, that starting point is a difference of about $300,000. Crazy, right, when you look at it over a long time period.

Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s nuts. And I’d play the devil’s advocate, on the other side of that is again, so much — just like everything else with the financial plan, you can’t look at it in a vacuum. We’ve had clients take a lot less money and really, it was because of the student loans and how that would affect their strategy in terms of forgiveness and things like that. 

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Tim Baker: So it is multifactorial. It’s definitely something that it should really be examined. And I think, again, when you look at the overall context of the financial plan. But to your point, Tim, that starting salary and really how you negotiate throughout the course of your career is going to be utterly important. And again, what we say is — we kind of downplay the income because I think so much of what’s kind of taught is like, oh, six-figure salary, you’ll be OK. And that’s not true. But then it is true that it is the lifeblood of the financial plan, so I think if you have a plan and you’re intentional with what you’re doing, that’s where you can really start making moves with regard to your financial outlook.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I’m glad you said that about salary shouldn’t be looked at in a silo. I mean, just to further that point, you’ve alluded to it already, these numbers don’t matter if there’s other variables that are non-monetary that matter more. Right? Whether that be time off or satisfaction in the workplace, opportunities that you have, feelings of accomplishment. I mean, the whole list of things you can’t necessarily put a number to, I mean, I would argue if those are really important, you’ve got to weigh those against whatever this number would be. And there’s a certain point where the difference in money isn’t worth it if there’s other variables that are involved, which usually there are. Hopefully we can get both, right? Salary and non-salary items.

Tim Baker: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: So interesting stats about negotiation, I’ve heard you present before on this topic, but I’d like you to share with our audience in terms of managers that are expecting hires to negotiate versus those that do. Talk us through some of those as I think it will help us frame and maybe change our perception on employers expecting and our willingness to engage in these conversations. 

Tim Baker: Yeah, and I really need to cite this one. And I believe this first stat comes from SHRM, which is the Society for Human Resource Management. So I think this is like the biggest association for like HR and Human Resource personnel in the country. And the stat that I use is that 99% of hiring managers expect prospective hires to negotiate. So if you think about that, you know, the overwhelming majority expect you the prospective hire to negotiate. And they build their initial offers as such. So the example I give to clients is like, hey, we have a position that we could pay anywhere from $110,000 to $130,000, knowing that you know, Tim, if I’m offering this job to you, knowing that you’re probably going to negotiate with me. I’m going to offer it to you for $110,000 knowing that I have a little bit of wiggle room if you kind of come back with a counteroffer. But what a lot of my clients or people do that I talk with is they’ll just say, yes, I found a job, crappy job market, happy to get started, ready to get started. And they’re either overly enthusiastic to accept a job or they’re just afraid that a little bit of negotiation would hurt their outlook. So with that in mind is that you — the offers I think are built in a way that you should be negotiating and trying to, again, advocate for yourself. 

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and so if people are presenting positions often with a range in salary expecting negotiation, I hope that gives folks some confidence in OK, that’s probably expected and maybe shifts some of the perception away from, this whole thing could fall apart, which it could, right? At any given point in time, especially depending on the way you conduct yourself in that negotiation, which I think is really, really important to consider. But I think what we want to try to avoid, Tim, back to a comment you made earlier, is any resentment as well. I mean, if we think about this from a relationship standpoint, we want the employee to feel valued, and we want the employer to have a shot at retaining this individual long-term. So it’s a two-way relationship.

Tim Baker: Yeah, and it kind of comes up to where we were talking about what is the goal of negotiation. And really, the goal of negotiation is to come to some type of agreement.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. 

Tim Baker: The problem with that is that people are involved in this. And we as people are emotional beings, so if we feel like that we’re treated unfairly or we don’t feel safe and secure or if we’re not in control of the conversation, our emotions can get the best of us. So that’s important. So again, there’s some techniques that you can utilize to kind of mitigate that. But you know, to allude to your point about negotiating, the fear to kind of potentially mess up the deal, there’s a stat that says 32% don’t negotiate because they’re too worried about losing the job offer. 

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. 

Tim Baker: I know, Tim, like we can attest to this because with our growth at YFP, we’ve definitely done some human resourcing, to use that as a verb, and hiring and things like that of late. And I’ve got to say that the — I think that some of this can be unfounded just because there’s just so much blood, sweat and tears that goes into finding the right people to kind of surround yourself with and bring into an organization that to me, a little bit of back-and-forth is not going to ultimately lose the job. So typically most jobs, there’s — obviously there’s an application process, there’s interviews, there’s second interviews, there’s maybe on-site visits, there’s kind of looking at all the candidates and then extending offers. If you get to that offer stage, you’re pretty — they’ve identified as you’re the person that they want. So sometimes a little bit of back-and-forth is not going to derail any such deal. So it’s really, really important to understand that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and as the employer, I mean, we’ve all heard about the cost statistics around retention. So as an employer, when I find that person, I want to retain them. That’s my goal, right? I want to find good talent, I want to retain good talent. So I certainly don’t want somebody being resentful about the work that they’re doing, the pay that they have, and so I think if we can work some of that out before beginning, come to an agreement, it’s a good fit for us, good fit for them, I think it’s also going to help the benefit of hopefully the long-term relationship of that engagement. So it’s one thing to say we should be doing it. It’s another thing to say, well how do we actually do this? What are some tips and tricks for negotiation? So I thought it would be helpful if we could walk through some of the stages of negotiation. And through those stages, we can talk, as well as beyond that, what are some actual strategies to negotiation. Again, another shoutout to “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss. I think he does an awesome job of teaching these strategies in a way that really helps them come alive and are memorable.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: So Tim, let’s talk about the first stage, the interview stage, and what are some strategies that those listening can take when it comes to negotiation in this stage.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so when I present these concepts to a client, I kind of said that the four stages of negotiation are fairly vanilla, you know? And the first one is that interview. So when you get that interview, what I say is typically you want to talk less, listen more and learn more. Typically, the person that is talking the most is not in control of the conversation. The one that’s listening and asking good questions is in control. And I kind of think back to some of our recent hires, and you know, the people that we identified as like top candidates, I’m like, man, their interviews went really well. And when I actually think back and slow down, it’s really — I think that they went really well because it’s really that person asking good questions and then me just talking. And that’s like the perception. So in that case, the candidate was asking us good questions and we’re like, yeah, this was a great interview because I like to hear myself talk or I just get really excited about what we’re doing at YFP. So I think if you can really focus on your counterpart, focus on the organization, whether it’s the hospital or whatever it is and learn and then really pivot to the value that you bring, I think that’s going to be most important. So you know, understanding what some of their pain points are, whether it’s retention or maybe some type of care issue or whatever that may be, you can kind of use that to your advantage as you’re kind of going through the different stages of negotiation. But the more that the other person talks, the better. I would say in the interview stage, one of the things that often comes up that can come up fairly soon is the question about salary. And you know, sometimes that is — it’s kind of like a time savings. So it’s a “Hey, Tim, what are you looking for in salary?” If you throw out a number that’s way too high, I’m not even going to waste my time. And what I tell clients is like you typically, you want to — and we’ll talk about anchoring. You really want to avoid throwing a number out for a variety of reasons. So one of the deflections you can use is, “Hey, I appreciate the question, but I’m really trying to figure out if I’d be a good fit for your organization. Let’s talk about salary when the time comes.” Or the other piece of it is it’s just you’re not in the business of offering yourself a job. And what I mean by that it’s their job to basically provide an offer. So, “Hey, my current employer doesn’t really allow me to kind of reveal that kind of information. What did you have in mind?” Or, “We know that pharmacy is a small business, and I’m sure your budget is reasonable. What did you have in mind?”

Tim Ulbrich: Right. 

Tim Baker: So at the end of the day, it’s their job to extend the offer, not you to kind of negotiate against yourself, which can happen. You know? I had — we signed on a client here at YFP Planning yesterday, and we were talking about negotiation. I think it had to do with a tax issue. And you know, he basically said this is what he was looking for and when he got into the organization, I think he saw the number that was budgeted for it, and it was a lot more. So again, if you can deflect that — and I tell a story, when I first got out of the Army, I kind of knew this. But when I first got out of the Army, I was interviewing for jobs. I was in an interview, and I deflected and I think the guy asked me again, and I deflected. I think he asked me for like — maybe he asked me four times, and I just wound up giving him a range that was like obnoxious, $100,000-200,000 or something like that. But to me, that — and the interview didn’t go well after that, but to me, it was more about clearing the slate instead of actually learning about me and seeing if I was a good fit. So you never want to lie if they ask about your current salary, you never want to lie. But you definitely want to deflect and move to things like OK, can I potentially be a good fit for your organization and then go from there.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think deflection takes practice, right? 

Tim Baker: Yeah. 

Tim Ulbrich: I don’t think that comes natural to many of us.

Tim Baker: Absolutely. Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: This reminds me, so talk less, listen more for any Hamilton folks we have out there, which is playing 24/7 in my house these days, the soundtrack. I’m not going to sing right now, but talk less, smile more, don’t let them know what you’re against or what you’re for. So I think that’s a good connection there to the interview stage. So next hopefully comes good news, company wants to hire you, makes an offer. So Tim, talk us through this stage. What should we be remembering when we actually have an offer on the table? 

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think you definitely want to be appreciative and thankful. Again, when a company gets to a point where they’re an extending you an offer, that’s huge. I remember when I got, again, my first offer out of the Army — because again, you didn’t really have a choice when you’re in the Army. Well, I guess you do have a choice, but they’re not like, “Here’s a written offer for your employment in this platoon somewhere in Iraq.” But I remember getting the first offer. I’m like, man, this is awesome. Shows your salary and the benefits and things like that, so you want to be appreciable and thankful — appreciative and thankful. You don’t want to be — you want to be excited but not too overexcited. So you don’t want to appear to be desperate. What I tell clients, I think the biggest piece here is make sure you get it in writing. And I have a story that I tell because if it’s not in writing, and what I essentially said is it didn’t happen. So again, using some personal experience here, first job out of the Army, I had negotiated basically an extra week of vacation because I didn’t want to take a step back in that regard. And I got the offer, and the extra week wasn’t there. So I talked to my future boss about it, and he said, “You know what, I don’t want to go back to headquarters and ruffle some feathers, so why don’t we just take care of that on site here?” And this was the job I had in Columbus, Ohio. And I said, “Yeah, OK, I don’t really want to ruffle feathers either.” The problem with that was when he got replaced, when he was terminated eight months later, that currency burned up fairly quickly. So I didn’t have that extra week of vacation. So if it’s not written down, it never happened. So you want to make sure that you get it in writing and really go over that written offer extensively. So some employers, they’ll extend an offer, and they want a decision right away. I would walk away from that. To me, a job change or something of that magnitude, I think it warrants a 24-, if not a minimum 48-hour timeframe for you to kind of mull it over. And this is typically where I come in and help clients because they’ll say, “Hey, Tim, I got this offer. What do you think?” And we go through it and we look at benefits and we look at the total compensation package and things like that. But you want to ask for a time, some time to review everything. And then definitely adhere to the agreed-upon deadline to basically provide an answer or a counteroffer or whatever the next step is for you.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think too, the advice to get it in writing helps buy you time, you know? I think you ask for it anyways. And I think the way you approach this conversation, you’re setting up the counteroffer, right? So the tone that you’re using, it’s not about being arrogant here, it’s not about acting like you’re not excited at all. I think you can strike that balance between you’re appreciative, you’re thankful, you’re continuing to assess if it’s a good fit for you and the organization, you want some time, you want it in writing, and you’re beginning to set the stage. And I think human behavior, right, says if something is either on the table or pulled away slightly, the other party wants it a little bit more, right? 

Tim Baker: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: So if I’m the employer and I really want someone and I’m all excited about the offer and I’m hoping they’re going to say yes and they say, “Hey, I’m really thankful for the offer. I’m excited about what you guys are doing. I need some time to think about x, y and z,” or “I’m really thinking through x, y or z,” like all of a sudden, that makes me want them more. You know? 

Tim Baker: Sure.

Tim Ulbrich: So I think there’s value in setting up what is that counteroffer. So talk to us about the counteroffer, Tim. Break it down and some strategies to think about in this portion.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so you know, the counteroffer is I would say — the majority of the time, you should counter in some way. I think you’re expected to make a counter. And again, we kind of back that up with some stats. But you also, you need to know when not to kind of continue to go back to the negotiating table or when you’re asking or overasking. So I think research is going to be a good part of that. And what I tell clients is like, I can give them a very non-scientific — I’ve worked with so many pharmacists that I can kind of say, eh, that sounds low for this community pharmacy industry, or whatever, hospital, in this area. So your network, which could be someone like me, it could be colleagues, but it could also be things like Glass Door, Indeed, Salary.com. So you want to make sure that your offer, your counteroffer is backed up in some type of fact. And really, knowing how to maximize your leverage. So if you are — if you do receive more than one substantial offer from multiple employers, negotiating may be appropriate if the two positions are comparable. Or if you have tangible evidence that the salary is too low, you have a strong position to negotiate. So I had a client that knew that newly hired pharmacists were being paid more than she was, and she had the evidence to show that and basically they went back and did a nice adjustment. But again, I think as you go through — the way that we kind of do this with clients is we kind of go through the entire letter and the benefits. And I basically just highlight things and have questions about match or vacation time or salary, things like that. And then we start constructing it from there. So if you look at, again, the thing where most people will start is salary is you really want to give — when you counter, you really want to give a salary range rather than like a number. So what I say is, if you say, “Hey, Tim, I really want to make $100,000.” I kind of said it’s almost like the Big Bad Wolf that blows the house down. Like all of those zeros, there’s no substance to that. But if you said, “Hey, I really want to make $105,985,” the Journal of the Experimental Social Psychology says that using a precise number instead of a rounded number gives it a more potent anchor. 

Tim Ulbrich: You’ve done your homework, right? 

Tim Baker: Yeah. You know what you’re worth, you know what the position’s worth, it’s giving the appearance of research. So I kind of like — it’s kind of like the Zach Galfinakis meme that has all of the equations that are floating, it’s kind of like that. But the $100,000, you can just blow that house over. So and I think — so once you figure out that number, then you kind of want to range it. So they say if you give a range of a salary, then it opens up room for discussion and it shows the employer that you have flexibility. And it gives you some cushion in case you think that you’re asking for a little bit too high. So that’s going to be really, really important is to provide kind of precise numbers in a range. And oh, by the way, I want to be paid at the upper echelon of that.

Tim Ulbrich: So real quick on that, you mentioned before the concept of anchoring, and I want to spend some time here as you’re talking about a range. So dig into that further, what that means in terms of if I’m given a range, how does anchoring fit into that?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so we kind of talk about this more when we kind of talk some of the tools and the behavior of negotiation. But the range — so when we talk about like anchoring, so anchoring is actually — it’s a bias. So anchoring bias describes the common tendency to give too much weight to the first number. So again, if I can invite the listener to imagine an equation, and the equation is 5x4x3x2x1. And that’s in your mind’s eye. And then you clear the slate, and now you imagine this equation: 1x2x3x4x5. Now, if I show the average person and I just flash that number up, the first number — the first equation that starts with 5 and the second equation that starts with 1, we know that those things equal the same thing. But in the first equation, we see the 5 first, so it creates this anchor, creates this belief in us that that number is actually higher. 

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, bigger, yeah. 

Tim Baker: So the idea of anchoring is typically that that number that we see really is a — has a major influence, that first number is a major influence over where the negotiation goes. So you can kind of get into the whole idea of factoring your knowledge of the zone of possible agreement, which is often called ZOPA. So that’s the range of options that should be acceptable for both sides, and then kind of assessing your side of that and then your other party’s anchor in that. So there’s lots of things that kind of go into anchoring, but we did this recently with a client where I think they were offered somewhere in like the $110,000-112,000 area. And she’s like, I really want to get paid closer to like $117,000-118,000. So we basically in the counteroffer, we said, “Hey, thanks for the offer.” And we did something called an accusation, which we can talk about in a second. But “Thanks for the counteroffer, but I’m really looking to make between” — you know, I think we said something like $116,598 to all the way up into the $120,000s. And they actually brought her up to I think she was at $117,000 and change. So it actually brought her up closer to that $118,000. So using that range and kind of that range as a good anchoring position to help the negotiation. 

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, love it. 

Tim Baker: There’s lots of different things that kind of go into anchoring in terms of extreme anchoring and a lot of that stuff that they talk about in the book, but again, that kind of goes back to that first number being thrown out there can be really, really integral. And again, when you couple that on top of hey, it’s their job to make you an offer, not the other way around, you have to really learn how to deflect that and know how to position yourself in those negotiations. But that’s really the counteroffer. And what I would say to kind of just wrap up the counteroffer is embrace the silence. 

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. 

Tim Baker: So Tim, there was silence there, and I’m like, I want to fill the void. And I do this with clients when we talk about mirroring and things like that. Like people are uncomfortable with silence. And what he talks about in the book, which I would 100% — this is really kind of a tip of the cap to Chris Voss and his book, which I love, I read probably at least once a year, where he talks about embracing the silence. We as people are conditioned to fill silences. So he talks about sometimes people will negotiate against themselves. If you just sit there and you say, “Uh huh. That’s interesting.” And then in the counter, just be pleasantly persistent on the non-salary terms, which can be both subjective and objective in terms of what you’re looking for in that position.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I want to make sure we don’t lose that. We’re talking a lot about salary, but again, as we mentioned at the beginning, really try to not only understand but fit what’s the value of those non-salary terms. So this could be everything from paid time off to obviously other benefits, whether that be health or retirement. This of course could be culture of the organization, whether it’s that specific site, the broader organization, opportunities for advancement. 

Tim Baker: Mentorship. Yep. Mentorship.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes, yes.

Tim Baker: Yep, all of that.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think what you hear from folks — I know I’ve felt in my own personal career, with each year that goes on, I value salary, but salary means less and those other things mean more. And so as you’re looking at let’s just say two offers, as one example, let’s say they’re $5,000 apart. I’m not saying you give on salary, but how do you factor in these other variables. 

Tim Baker: Yeah. Well, and I think too — and this is kind of next level with this, and I’ll give you some examples to cite it. I think another thing to potentially do when you are countering and when you’re shifting to some of maybe the non-salary stuff is really took a hard look at your potential employer or even your current employer if you’re an incumbent and you’re being reviewed and you’re just advocating for a better compensation, is look at the company’s mission and values. So the example I give is like when Shay and I got pregnant with Liam, she didn’t have a maternity leave benefit. And when she was being reviewed, we kind of invoked the company — and I think it’s like work-life balance and things like that — and we’re like, “Well, how can you say that and not back that up?” And again, we did it tactfully. Because you’re almost like negotiating against yourself, right? So when I present this to clients, the Spiderman meme where two Spidermans are pointing at each other, and she was able to negotiate a better, a maternity — and we look at us, and I give these, one of our values is encouraging growth and development. So if an employee says, hey, and they make a case that I really want to do this, it’s almost like we’re negotiating against ourselves. So I think if you can — one, I think it shows again the research and that you’re really interested and plugged into what the organization is doing — but then I think you’re leveraging the company against itself in some ways because you’re almost negotiating against well, yeah, we put these on the wall as something that we believe in. But we’re not going to support it or you know. Or at the very least, it plants a seed. And that’s what I say is sometimes with clients, we do strike out. It is hard to move the needle sometimes, but at least one, we’ve got an iteration under our belts where we are negotiation, and two, we’ve planted a seed with that employer — assuming that they took the job anyway — that says OK, these are things that are kind of important to me that we’re going to talk about again and things like that. So I think that’s huge.

Tim Ulbrich: Good stuff. So let’s talk about some tools that we can use for negotiation. And again, many of these are covered in more detail in the book and other resources, which we’ll link to in the show notes. I just want to hit on a few of these. Let’s talk about mirroring, accusation audits, and the importance of getting a “That’s right” while you’re in these conversations. And we’ll leave our listeners to dig deeper in some of the other areas. So talk to us about mirroring. What is it? And kind of give us the example and strategies of mirroring. 

Tim Baker: Yeah, and I would actually — Tim, what I would do is I would actually back up because I think probably one of the most important tools that are there I think is the calibrated question. So that’s one of the first things that he talks — and the reason, so what is a calibrated question? So a calibrated question is a question with really no fixed answer that gives the illusion of control. So the answer, however, is kind of constrained by that question. And you, the person that’s asking the question, has control of the conversation. So I give the example, when we moved into our house after we renovated it — so brand new house. I walk into my daughter’s room, I think she was 4 at the time, and she’s coloring on the wall in red crayons. And I’m from Jersey, so I say “crown” not “crayon.” And I look at her, and I say, “Olivia, why are you doing that?” And she sees how upset I am and mad and she just starts crying. And there’s no negotiation from there.

Tim Ulbrich: Negotiation over.

Tim Baker: There’s no exchange of information. So in an alternate reality, in an alternate reality, what I should have done is said, “Olivia, what caused you to do that?” So you’re basically blasting — instead of why — why is very accusatory — you’re like, the how and the what questions are good. So and of course she would say, “Well, Daddy, I ran out of paper, so the wall is the next best thing.” So the use of — and having these calibrated questions in your back pocket, I think again buys you some time and really I think frames the conversation with your counterpart well. So using words like “how” and “what” and avoiding things like “why,” “when,” “who.” So, “What about this works, doesn’t work for you?” “How can we make this better for us?” “How do you want to proceed?” “How can we solve this problem?” “What’s the biggest challenge you face?” These are all — “How does this look to you?” — these are all calibrated questions that again, as you’re kind of going back and forth, you can kind of lean on. So have good how and what questions. To kind of answer the question about mirroring, as you’re asking these questions, you’re mirroring your counterpart. So what mirroring, the scientific term is called isopraxism. But he defines and says “the real-life Jedi mind trick.” This causes vomiting of information is what he says. So you know, these are not the droids you’re looking for. So what you essentially is you repeat back the last 1-3 words or the critical words of your counterpart’s sentence, your counterpart’s sentence. So this is me mirroring myself. Yeah, well you want to repeat back because you want them to reveal more information. And you want to build rapport and have that curiosity of kind of what is the other person thinking so you can, again, come to an agreement. Come to an agreement? Yeah. So at the end of the day, the purpose — so this is mirroring. So I’ll show you a funny story. I practice this on my wife sometimes, who does not have a problem speaking. But sometimes the counterpart is —

Tim Ulbrich: She’s listening, by the way.

Tim Baker: Yeah, exactly. So I’ll probably be in trouble. But so I basically just for our conversation, just mirror back exactly what she’s saying. And you can do this physically. You can cross your legs or your arms or whatever that looks like. But what he talks about more is with words. And you know, I’ll basically just mirror back my wife, and she — at the end of the conversation, she’ll say something like, “Man, I feel like you really listened to me.” And I laugh about that because I’m just really repeating back. But if you think about it, I did. Because for you to be able to do that, you really do have to listen. So mirroring, again, if you’re just repeating back, you really start to uncover more of what your counterpart is thinking because often, like what comes out of our mouth the first or even second time is just smoke. So really uncovering that. One of the things he talks about is labeling where this is kind of the — it’s described as the method of validating one’s emotion by acknowledging it. So, “It seems like you’re really concerned about patient care. It seems like you’re really concerned about the organization’s retention of talent. So what you’re doing is that you’re using neutral statements that don’t involve the use of “I” or “we.” So it’s not necessarily accusatory. And then you are — same with the mirror. You really want to not step on your mirror. You want to not stop on your label and really invite the other person to say, “Yeah, I’m just really frustrated by this or that.” So labeling is really important to basically defuse the power, the negative emotion, and really allow you to remain neutral and kind of find out more about that. So that’s super important.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think with both of those, Tim, as you were talking, it connects well back to what we mentioned earlier of talk less, listen more. 

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Like you’re really getting more information out, right, from a situation that can be guarded, you know, people are trying to be guarded. And I think more information could lead hopefully to a more fruitful negotiation. What about the accusation audit?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so the accusation audit, it’s one of my favorites, kind of similar with calibrated questions. I typically will tell clients, I’m like, “Hey, if you don’t learn anything from this, I would say have some calibrated questions in your back pocket and have a good accusation audit at the ready.” And we typically will use the accusation audit to kind of frame up a counteroffer. So it kind — so before I give you the example, the accusation audit is a technique that’s used to identify and label probably like the worst thing that your counterpart could say about it. So this is all the head trash that’s going on of why I don’t want to negotiate. It’s like, ah, they’re going to think that I’m overasking or I’m greedy, all those things that you’re thinking. So you’re really just pointing to the elephant in the room and you’re just trying to take this thing out and really let the air out of the room where a lot of people just get so nervous about this. So a good accusation audit is, “Hey, Tim, I really appreciate the offer of $100,000 to work with your organization. You’re probably going to think that I’m the greediest person on Planet Earth, but I was really looking for this to that.” 

Tim Ulbrich: That’s a great line. Great line.

Tim Baker: Or, “You’re probably thinking that I’m asking way too much,” or, “You’re probably thinking that I’m way underqualified for this position, but here’s what I’m thinking.”

Tim Ulbrich: “No. No, no, no, Tim.”

Tim Baker: Right. So when someone says that to me, I’m like, “No. I don’t think that.” And what often happens — and again, clients have told me this — what often happens is that the person, the counterpart that they’re working with, like they’re recruited as — one person said, one client was like, “Oh, we’re going to find you more money. We’re going to figure it out.” So they like — so when someone says that to you, just think about how you would feel. “Oh, I don’t think that at all.” And then it just kind of lets the air out of the room. So you basically preface your counteroffer with like the worst thing they could say about you, and then they typically say, “That’s not true at all.” 

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: So I love the accusation audit. So simple, it’s kind of easy to remember. And I think it just lays I think the groundwork for just great conversation and hopefully a resolution. 

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. And then let’s wrap up with the goal of getting to a “That’s right.” I remember when I was listening to an interview with Chris Voss, this was a part that I heard and I thought, wow, that’s so powerful. If you can get — in the midst of this negotiation, if we can get to a “Yeah, that’s right,” the impact that could have on the impact. 

Tim Baker: Yeah, so he kind of talks about it like kind of putting all of these different tools together. So it’s mirroring and labeling and kind of using I think what he calls minimal encouragement, “Uh huh,” “I see,” kind of paraphrasing what you hear from your counterpart. And then really wait for — it’s like, “Hey, did I get that right? Am I tracking?” And what you’re really looking for is a “That’s right.” He said that’s even better than a “Yes.” So one of the examples I give is when I speak with prospective clients, we’re talking about my student loans and my investment portfolio and I’m doing real budgeting, and I got a sold a life insurance policy that I think isn’t great for me. And so we go through all of these different parts of the financial plan. And I’m basically summarizing back what they’re saying. And I say, you know, at the end of it — so I’m summarizing 30 minutes of conversation. And I’m saying, “Did I get that right?” And they’re like, “Yeah, that’s right. You’re a great listener,” which I have to record for my wife sometimes because she doesn’t agree with me. So that’s what you’re looking for is “Yeah, that’s right.” This person has heard, message sent, heard, understand me. He says if you get a “You’re right,” so sometimes, again, I keep talking about my wife, I’m like, “Hey, we have to do a better job of saving for retirement,” and she’s like, “You’re right.” That’s really code for “Shut up and go away.” So it’s a “That’s right” really what we’re looking for.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome.

Tim Baker: So that’s very powerful.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great stuff. And really, just a great overall summary of some tips within the negotiation process, the steps of the negotiation process, how it fits into the financial plan. We hope folks walk away with that and just a good reminder of our comprehensive financial planning services that we do at YFP Planning. This is a great example of when we say “comprehensive,” we mean it. So it’s not just investments, it’s not just student loans. It’s really every part of the financial plan. Anything that has a dollar sign on it, we want our clients to be in conversation and working with our financial planners to make sure we’re optimizing that and looking at all parts of one’s financial plan. And here, negotiation is a good example of that. So we’ve referenced lots of resources, main one we talked about here today was “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss. We will link to that in our show notes. And as a reminder to access the show notes, you can go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/podcast, find this week’s episode, click on that and you’ll be able to access a transcription of the episode as well as the show notes and the resources. And don’t forget to join our Facebook group, the Your Financial Pharmacist Facebook group, over 6,000 members strong, pharmacy professionals all across the country committed to helping one another on their own path and walk towards financial freedom. And last but not least, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the podcast, please leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show each and every week. Have a great rest of your day.

Tim Ulbrich: As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published.  Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 336: Rx Career Forecast: Analyzing Pharmacy Job Trends w/ Alex Barker of The Happy PharmD


Alex Barker, CEO and Founder of The Happy PharmD returns to break down trends in the pharmacy job market.

Episode Summary

In this episode, we welcome back Alex Barker, PharmD, Founder and CEO of The Happy PharmD. Alex shares an update on trends in the pharmacy job market, including his outlook on the trajectory of the profession, projecting into the landscape of 2024 and beyond. He shares his thoughts on the #pharmageddon movement, with recent walkouts and efforts to unionize making headlines. He also breaks down a recent survey he posed on LinkedIn that shows the desire for more remote work opportunities and more pharmaceutical industry roles.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Alex Barker is the CEO and Founder of The Happy Pharm D, a nationwide coaching firm guiding pharmacists to inspiring careers and more fulfilling lives. Alex is an accomplished public speaker, a published author and teacher. Since 2017, his coaching program and career development seminars have guided over 2,000 pharmacists into new jobs and roles they love. His book Indispensable: A prescription for a fulfilling pharmacy career, has motivated countless pharmacists to love pharmacy again. Alex is a husband and the proud father of two daughters. He loves drinking coffee and eating good guacamole (though not at the same time). When he isn’t working, which happens occasionally, he plays Nintendo, Dungeon & Dragons, and reads comics.

Key Points From the Episode

  • Pharmacy job market trends with Alex Barker. [0:00]
  • Pharmacist shortages and dissatisfaction. [4:32]
  • Pharmacy industry changes and the impact of walkouts. [8:49]
  • The impact of AI on the pharmacy profession. [13:20]
  • Career paths and professional identity in pharmacy. [20:01]
  • Remote work opportunities for pharmacists. [24:57]
  • Industry trends and career shifts in pharmaceuticals. [30:36]
  • Pharmacist career paths and industry perception. [35:32]
  • Pharmacy profession’s future in 10 years. [40:36]
  • Pharmacy industry trends and predictions. [46:19]
  • Pharmacy career development and job opportunities. [52:17]

Episode Highlights

But the future of pharmacy cannot be product-only related anymore. It can’t just be about medicine. Because the opportunity is just not there. So my hope is that for anyone in one of those positions, whether in hospital or in community, you’re thinking ahead and looking to the problems of the business, what they currently have. And hopefully getting super curious about how you can solve these problems.” – Alex Barker [17:11]

“I think it reflects our professional identity, we love A to Z plans, right? We want it all laid out. We want to know what is the right thing to do to be a pharmacist practicing at the height of our license. And once we have that plan, then we know that we just, we just got to stick to it. And we have been trained and programmed through our education system to I mean, just really just do that. From kindergarten to the last day of pharmacy school, we were told exactly what we needed to do. And then we get out into the real world and realize that it never operates this way.” – Alex Barker [20:38]

“And I was like, man, what, what is the message we’re sending to our pharmacists that like, you’ve got such a narrow skill, there’s nothing else that you can do with it. I mean, there’s, there’s so much – from teaching to leading to being a manager. And I mean, practically any sector, because we’re all organizationally minded. I could go on and on about the different jobs that we could do, even outside of pharmacy. But there’s so much opportunity out there. But the narrow-minded nature of looking at what you can do, I think prohibits people from seeing jobs that they could actually have a lot of fun doing.” – Alex Barker [26:07]

“But we need to influence the public much differently about who we are and what we’re capable of. Because until the public gets it, they’re not going to go along with this idea of oh, I need to schedule an appointment with a pharmacist and I need to pay a pharmacist to do something for me. When for decades, if not well over a century or two, it’s been free to talk to us. You can’t just undo that, because we now have a doctorate. It is going to take decades, if not centuries, to get people to see that we’re different.” -Alex Barker [41:06]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

Tim Ulbrich  00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I welcome back Alex Barker, the founder and CEO of the Happy PharmD to talk all things pharmacy job market, including his outlook for 2024 and beyond. We discussed Alex’s take on Pharmageddeon the recent walkouts and the efforts of pharmacists to unionize, the desire and shift that he seen for pharmacists wanting remote work, the transition that’s happening to pharmaceutical industry roles, and Alex’s vision for the profession of pharmacy 10 plus years into the future. Alright we got a good one for you this week. Let’s jump into my interview with Alex Barker, the founder and CEO of the Happy PharmD. 

[START OF EPISODE]

Tim Ulbrich  00:48

Alex, welcome back to the show.

Alex Barker  00:50

Thanks for having me, Tim. It’s a pleasure.

Tim Ulbrich  00:52

So you’ve been on several times. I suspect most of our listeners know who you are. But just in case, give us a quick background and who is Alex Barker? And what is the Happy PharmD.

Alex Barker  01:03

So I created the Happy PharmD in 2017 to help pharmacists get careers and jobs that they would actually enjoy. I was on that pursuit myself. I was a burned out pharmacist for a few years as a clinical pharmacist. Didn’t enjoy it all what I did spent five years trying to figure out that process of creating a job that I would love. And here I am doing it and now helping now over I want to say it’s like 2400 pharmacists that have gone through at least one of our programs, I’ve taken one of our classes. And we’ve learned a lot about what pharmacists want and what they don’t want. And I’m excited to share some of those insights with you today on the podcast.

Tim Ulbrich  01:47

So fun fact, Alex, I don’t know if we shared this on the podcast before but that was one of your early early clients. 

Alex Barker  01:53

You were!

Tim Ulbrich  01:54

This would have been way, way back when in 2016? 2017? At the time, Tim Church and I were writing the book Seven Figure Pharmacist. 

Alex Barker  02:03

Yep.

Tim Ulbrich  02:03

We were just launching the brand, the community trying to figure out what was the next step of kind of moving that from a hobby to a side hustle to a business. And that was fun, and you provided tremendous value to me, and to hear that you’ve helped over 2000 people, your team has helped over 2000 people, and many more to come. That’s legacy stuff. That’s pretty cool. So congrats to you and the team at the Happy PharmD. That’s really awesome.

Alex Barker  02:28

Thanks. Yeah, it feels good. At first, it was just about helping people and it became more about families and changing the profession. And to me, that’s what’s exciting. You know, a lot of the pharmacists that come to us are from hospital and community typically, that’s where the majority of the jobs are. And that’s where a lot of people are burned out or tired or just have low, you know, job satisfaction. And getting them into stuff that they actually enjoy frees them up, they get to be present with their families more, they get to go to the soccer game, they get to pick them up from school. I mean, you’re doing that now, right in your business, you know that there’s, there’s nothing better than enjoying your work and living the life that you want to live. So it’s a privilege that I get to do it.

Tim Ulbrich  03:20

I love I always share people’s are thinking about starting business or business ideas when you can find that intersection between a business that is solving a problem that people are willing to pay for. And it aligns with something that you’re passionate about. And it’s adding value and is adding transformation. That’s a really sweet spot said it doesn’t mean it’s gonna be easy, but it’s a sweet spot to sit in. So I’m excited. I really wanted to talk about career trends in our profession, maybe for obvious reasons. There’s a lot going on out there. And we’re gonna dabble in several different topics. But this is a topic I’ve been interested in throughout my career. I’ve done career development in previous roles, but you are the expert, your team are the experts when it comes to career development, career transitions, career trends that are happening inside of a profession. And so I wanted to pick your brain on what the heck is going on right now. What’s your take on? You know, some of the hot topics in our profession? Where do you see things going? Not only in 2024, but I’m also gonna ask you to project out a little bit further than that. And you know, where do we see things going with a lot of the disruption and the change that we have come in, but it’s I graduated 2008 And that wasn’t that long ago, but a lot has changed in a very short period of time. 

Alex Barker  03:52

Yeah, back then. It was six figures in a car. Right? That was the thing. It was just about ending around 2008.

Tim Ulbrich  04:39

Uh, it was still there. I mean, there were there was six figures and a car I would say for a couple years. Probably getting towards the end of that I remember the the line that kept going around our class. There were rumors of a million dollar contract out in Alaska for three years with one of the chains. I don’t know if that was true or not. But that was kind of there right. That was a day and age that we were in. And, and that was a day and age when it was a, Hey, don’t worry about your student loan debt, like it’ll just take care of itself. So thankfully, we’ve made some dents in that. But I want to talk about first, you know, the Pharmageddon that has been coined recently, the recent walkouts that I think everyone is realized not only internally through people that have been cheering, but that’s made national news outlets, CNN, NPR, NBC, and so forth, and some recent efforts and announcements around unionizing, which isn’t a new effort, per se, but it’s a rejuvenated one. And from the individual that does this work in and out who follows these trends, who runs your own data and looks at the workforce, what do you make of this? Is it? Is it a new era that we’re heading into? Is it a reaction to something that’s brewing for a long time? And are we actually going to see change that comes out of this? Or is it going to be more of the status quo going forward?

Alex Barker  06:03

All great questions. And I’m, I’m so glad that I get to be recorded, so I can be on the record, because then I can six months from now, I’m gonna I can look back and say where what I was wrong about. So I think you and I know that a lot of these complaints be that were sourced from the walkout. I mean, we’ve known about them for years. Every pharmacist kind of knows that a lot of the sources of a lot of our problems, where they exist, where they are, we don’t need to go into them. But they exist. And I think this was a kind of like a reaction of the straw that broke the camel’s back. Right, we just got through the pandemic. And arguably, the stress then was potentially maybe higher than it is right now. I think we’re seeing a gestalt, which is one of my favorite German words, of a problem that is so complex, and it involves multiple things. The one of the factors that I think is newer is the this new generation of pharmacists. This new generation of pharmacists is different than everyone before it, because they are actively refusing to take the majority of jobs that are being offered right now. And from big business perspectives, that’s they say that there’s a shortage of pharmacists right now. And they they attribute that to the response of like, okay, well, we’re just not able to find pharmacists to fill, like basic positions that we’ve had open for years. But the truth is, is that there are more pharmacists than what the market needs right now, just from looking at labor supply and economics. But they’re not willing to take these jobs that are out there. And we’re also seeing, and I think you’ve heard this rumor as well, that more and more pharmacy residents are just straight up quitting their residency programs. I just spoke to one last week, who just had a gut feeling this wasn’t for her, this isn’t what she wanted. And while I don’t know if ASHP is reporting that data or are talking about the residency, quit rate, everyone is acknowledging that like this is getting higher and higher.

Tim Ulbrich  08:32

So which, which in our day and age, Alex, and we’re dating ourselves a little bit, like that was a hard, you do not do that ever, or, you know, professional consequences. And so that’s an interesting, I don’t know that the data and I don’t know how that is or is not reported. But that doesn’t surprise me. 

Alex Barker  08:52

No. 

Tim Ulbrich  08:52

And it’ll be interesting to watch that trend if it continues.

Alex Barker  08:57

What I’m looking at I know that I’m heavily biased towards like generation and thinking about the next workforce that is coming in. There’s obviously a lot of work environment issues, there’s a lot of reasons why the walkouts have been influenced by the decisions that a lot of these I mean, let’s be honest, it’s it’s just the retail chains that this is being the focus of, you know, the big ones. But generationally, this new generation that’s coming into the workforce is poised to change things. Not to deviate too much on a topic that isn’t related at all to pharmacy. But anthropology has documented research to show that generations follow a pattern. And this new generation that is coming up in into entering into the workforce is the one to change things. We are going through a period of change that is similar to the time period of the Great Depression and World War Two. The greatest generation is what they were called. And they lived in a world of turmoil, of uncertainty, and things that I hope that we’re not going to repeat in today’s age. But that generation is the same generation that’s coming into the workforce. So my one of my predictions is that the health care system is not sustainable. It will change. It has to change. But how it’s going to is, I mean, totally up for debate. But the system has a lot of cracks. And I think the walkouts is just one of those symptoms, right? It’s poised for change and reform. Now, it’s going to be up to whether or not the powers that be listen, to make those changes happen.

Tim Ulbrich  11:05

I think a couple of the trends that I’m watching, and again, just the day and age that we live in, I’ve been in some meetings recently, where there’s been individuals at a fairly high level, at a chain level talking about the you know, the response to this, and what’s involved in this. And one of the “aha” is I had through those conversations is that, you know, if you think about the groups that are walking out, and who are, you know, able to have some of these momentum around the Pharmageddeon, they can mobilize quickly, or they can mobilize quickly in the messaging, they can mobilize quickly and getting the word out there. And for anyone who’s been in a management leadership role, you know, that you can’t necessarily mobilize quickly when it comes to getting press releases out, getting information out in a way that, you know, perhaps reaches people where you want it to reach and is set in a way that you want to be said without a lot of the guardrails around it. And that’s an interesting dynamic to watch right now of like, who’s really controlling the communication streams? And I think that’s gonna be an interesting one to follow. Because, you, Alex, you had a post, you had a poll on LinkedIn recently, where you asked people about the impact of the walkout, you had over 600 votes. 45% responded, that they didn’t think the walkouts were going to have any change on the industry. 40% responded, they thought eventually would change the industry. So depending on if you’re half glass full or not person, you can look at that one way or the other. But my question is, like, Where? Where does this go? Right? Because when you think about the book that always comes to mind is former presidential candidate Andrew Yang wrote a book called The War on Normal People, several years ago, and he talked about the impact or potential impact of autonomous driving on truck drivers. And I remember hearing it at the time and thinking, Wow, what a good example, and this was, you know, five, six years ago, I think I read that what a good example, for us to be thinking about pharmacy. And the picture he paints is, you know, a cohort, a workforce, largely middle aged men. For the most part, some of them may have previous degrees or training, many do not 1520 years into the career. And let’s imagine a scenario where all of a sudden, well, those jobs are replaced by technology. Now, there’s been a lot of developments since then autonomous driving, and you know, what’s, what’s the trajectory? How fast is that going to go? But it’s a really good exercise for us to think about as well in pharmacy. If we think about community retail chain pharmacy, if we fast forward 10, 15, 20 years, the pathway of automation and technology is there. Now, we may not like it or want to hear that outcome. We have state boards of pharmacies and regulatory bodies that I think are potentially going to slow that disruption. But it feels like it’s a matter of it’s going to happen. It’s just a matter of when is it 10 years, eight years, seven years, six years, three years. And so when we’re talking about 50% of the workforce, you know, the work you do and coaching people through career transitions, we potentially have a huge chunk of the workforce that we need to be thinking about redeployment into other fields. And does that come quick? Or is that more of a slow off ramp? Or am I being dramatic?

Alex Barker  14:16

What comes to mind is the entire horse industry, like in 1914, which I think is like the year before the Henry Ford model came out. And then in a matter of two years, an entire industry fell apart. There wasn’t a need for blacksmiths. There weren’t any for stables. There weren’t a need for breeders, as many veterinarians. I mean, tons of people’s lives were impacted in a matter of just a couple of years. Because we innovated on technology and we created something more consumer. Beneficial, right? The car. When I think about technology, innovating. I look back to that 1999 congressional statement talking about the shortage of pharmacists that was going to happen, which never happened. There was never a shortage of pharmacists. And there was no real indication. According to actually one book that analyzed this prediction, there was really no significant signs that indicated that that was ever going to happen. And also, they didn’t equate for the changes in technology that was going to happen in the early, you know, 20s, or 2000s. So, when I think about what’s going to happen, AI, in the huge boom that we’re going through right now, I think it’s really similar to like the dot com boom and bust that happened in the early 2000s. When I think about the core aspects of pharmacy, it’s the human element that has always been present. And for the things that are more mundane, that can be handled technology by technology, I think those will be replaced. How do we redeploy those people? I think it involves learning new skills and building new models. You know, you and I talked a little bit before this that like, what does the future look like in pharmacy, and what do I hope for. My hope is, is that we figure out who we are. My hope is, is that the associations band together instead of vie separately, and really try to create a unified, professional identity about who we are, and what we do, and elevate and showcase those pharmacists that are doing those practices and leading the way forward. Because the dispensing model is done, it’s been done for a while. And there’s really not a lot of innovation happening there. There are some really cool players in the independent space that are doing innovative things with moreso services, clinical services. But the future of pharmacy cannot be product only related anymore. It can’t just be about medicine. Because the opportunity in the states is just not there. So my hope is is that for anyone in one of those positions, whether is hospital or in community, you’re thinking ahead and looking to the problems of the business, what they currently have. And hopefully getting super curious about how you can solve these problems. You don’t have to start a business. You know, Tim and I are just entrepreneur fanatics. We love talking about it. But you can figure out problems in your current organization. And that’s really how to create an indispensable career. It’s just focus on those problems, get super curious about them, try to fix them. And that’s how, that’s how job opportunities happen. Because I mean, just one thing about AI, you know, that created a brand new industry out of thin air. Chat GPT revolutionized everyone’s access to AI, and created so many jobs. And I don’t see a whole lot of people in pharmacy going down that route. It is totally doable. It’s totally possible. In fact, that pharmacist I mentioned earlier, who quit her residency is doing just that she is now going into the AI and startup route and utilizing her pharmacy knowledge. So it’s not impossible, it can create new jobs, but it’s going to eliminate ones that the market really no longer values. 

Tim Ulbrich  18:51

Yeah, and this, you know, what you’re sharing is obviously so deeply connected to the work that we do at YFP, because for someone to have the capacity to go explore other opportunities, even if that’s on the back of them staying with their current employer. Let’s say we know the train, we know where the train’s going. But I’m gonna ride that train and kind of buy myself some time to be curious and go explore these other things. Having the financial plan and the foundation in place to allow yourself to be curious. Right, I often will say is if someone doesn’t have their financial house in order, you will suffocate curiosity. And it doesn’t have to be to your point. It doesn’t have to be a business. And actually, in the vast majority of the cases, if we’re talking about the numbers we’re talking about, we have over 330,000 pharmacists, in our profession, half of them work in the space that is tied in some way to a product, if we’re talking about any percentage of that being redeployed, it’s not going to be a big dent, that’s going to be entrepreneurship. It’s going to be what you’re talking about. It’s going to be people that are identifying opportunities, you know, within organizations that maybe are in the Department of Pharmacy, maybe they’re not and this is like any other profession any their career direct trajectory. For the most part, obviously, there’s some examples where it’s a very linear path. But for many of us that graduated, you know, I graduated at 24 with a 06 doctorate program, I was put on a one way linear path. And we get stuck thinking on that pathway. And when you talk with people that, you know, maybe they graduated with an undergraduate psychology degree or a business degree, and then they took one job, and then it took another job and another job and they skill stack over time. Right. But you can’t say draw a clean line of experiences, like we want to envision in pharmacy. And I think that’s a, that’s a scary thing to think about.

Alex Barker  20:38

I think it reflects our professional identity, we love A to Z plans, right? We want it all laid out. We want to know what is the right thing to do to be a pharmacist practicing at the height of our license. And once we have that plan, then we know that we just, we just got to stick to it. And we have been trained and programmed through our education system to I mean, just really just do that. From kindergarten to last day of pharmacy school, we were told exactly what we need to do. And then we get out into the real world and realize that it never operates this way. Maybe Only in rare circumstances or going into a major corporation, do you see the ladder before you. But in pharmacy, the ladder is really short. Most people do not go up the corporate ladder, save maybe in pharma. But it’s all just about well, get your degree, pass your boards. Go get a job. Yeah. And then that’s it. Yeah. And I think you the other aspect, you know, something you mentioned is getting into that track. I think about it’s who you’re surrounding yourself with.

Tim Ulbrich  21:52

I was just thinking the same thing. 

Alex Barker  21:54

Yeah. I was gonna ask you, you know, once you entered into the workforce, did you kind of feel like you, you came out of school, maybe like really excited, right, I finally have a job, I’m gonna get paid to do this thing. And, like, there’s excitement to both learn and practice. And then you look at everyone around you, and no one else feels that way. Everyone else is like, it’s Monday, you know? What you do this weekend? Like, there’s just no passion there. At least that was my experience. And I think if that’s who you surround yourself with, that’s who you end up becoming? Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich  22:38

And to that point it, it can become an echo chamber, you know, you talked about the short ladder, like, you know, this is true in any any part of life, we’re talking professional here, you know, this is true in your financial life and in business and your pursuit of physical wellness, and in your marriage, anything like, you know, are we being stretched and challenged? And are we being curious, right to your point, I love that word, curiosity. And if, if we’re in an echo chamber of, you know, our department, where everyone’s thinking and looking at the same short ladder, well that’s the only ladder we know? And you start to put yourself in situations where you realize, wow, like, she did something really cool. And I’m thinking about your community, Alex, and the Happy PharmD like, so and so you know, had this opportunity. And then they went here, and they did this and this and they realize it’s about the skill stack. And and I always love to give the example of my brother, because he’s such a great example of this, where you’ve got to get yourself out of the mindset of your degree, and the only thing you can do and really focus on your skills and what you can bring. He was an industrial engineer by training, he went on the fast track to investment banking, with one of the large firms, you know, was grinding that out for several years to the to the point where you know, his bonus was bigger than the salary, one of those gigs, doing huge international banking kind of got to this point of like, I see what I see. And I don’t want this to be the path that I’m on for the next, you know, 20 plus years as I raised my family walked away with no plan, moved from London to Buffalo, where we grew up, took nine months to explore, like, what were the things that he liked, didn’t like, what was he interested in? Not what was his degree or where he worked, but what could he bring to an organization? How can he tell that story? And he ended up taking a job as a president of an advanced manufacturing firm. Right? And then he eventually left that and he’s since bought a business and doing something that’s completely different. It’s about the mindset and the skills. And I suspect that a lot of the work that you do with your clients is kind of breaking out some of the shell and the habits that we form.

Alex Barker  24:43

Yeah, in fact, we we have a survey that we’ve been developing and working on, where we assess where pharmacists find the most fulfillment and what careers match that kind of fulfillment. And overwhelmingly, every pharmacist has a very high rating for anything relating to soft skills. So very few people care so much about like the actual hard skills of pharmacy. Right. So whether it’s dealing with software, programming, yeah. Providing patient assessments, like anything that you’ve learned technically probably from from school, consider it a hard skill. But where pharmacists don’t really utilize, I think, very well for career development is just all the soft skills that they build in any job that they’ve ever had. Those skills can follow you to wherever you go. I just did a, I just did a Class CE, this morning about impostor syndrome. And there was a few people on there that were saying, like I was, I was working a pharmacy job, and I quit, I had had enough. And I don’t think my skills lend themselves very well to any other kind of job. And I was like, man, what, what is the message we’re sending to our pharmacists that like, you’ve got such a narrow skill, there’s nothing else that you can do with it. I mean, there’s, there’s so much – from teaching to leading to being a manager. And I mean, practically any sector, because we’re all organizational minded. I could go on and on about the different jobs that we could do, even outside of pharmacy. But there’s so much opportunity out there. But the narrow minded nature of looking at what you can do, I think prohibits people from seeing jobs that they could actually have a lot of fun doing.

Tim Ulbrich  26:47

So as typically goes when you and I get on a conversation, I think I had 10 or 12 questions prepped. And I’m on question two, so. But I want to ask you about a trend that I’ve been following from afar, but I know you’ve been looking at closer. I saw you post on LinkedIn several times, which is a trend and a shift around remote work. He had a post recently on LinkedIn that said, you have been inspired by countless success stories of pharmacists who’ve embraced remote roles, reclaiming precious moments with family and friends exploring the world being present for all the important things in life. The perks of remote work are limitless, but it often comes at the cost of a potential pay cut. So what are you seeing in terms of both the interests, you know, what’s driving that interest around, remote work, and then the opportunities that are available in that space?

Alex Barker  27:35

So let’s start with the opportunities. Practically almost any job can be remote for pharmacists. Now, I say that with some caveats. The most common jobs right now are community and hospital. Most people have heard of remote fill pharmacists for hospitals. But what about in the community setting? Well, like it or not, there are policies being put forth in multiple state legislatures that are allowing pharmacists to remotely manage pharmacies in communities where there’s not a lot of access to pharmacies. I am not a fan of that kind of legislation. But I just pointed out as to say, bills are being passed right now to make pharmacists more available to patients via remote access. But where a lot of people are focusing their remote kind of work is in pharma. Those typically don’t rely on people coming into a physical building. So a lot of pharmacists right now are really interested in that sector. But there’s plenty of remote jobs available for just any. I mean, right? I get alerts for our clients. And I just saw a job come in for ambulatory care pharmacist remote fill. And I was like, oh, no, I’m not remote fill, but just remote job. And I was like, Yep, it’s possible care. Yeah. As far as what I’m seeing, I was actually shocked by that poll. Because, I mean, I didn’t I didn’t look at it this morning. Because I mean, it’s hot off the press. It’s still being filled out now. But I think it was like 88% of people said that they would be willing to take a pay cut to get a remote job. And I was honestly surprised by this response. But when I think about it, when I think about who pharmacists are, I mean, we’re typically remote driven people, technically. We are people that want to be present with our families. We normally have families, or they wanting to start one. This newer generation in particular, is really fascinated by location independence. They’re fans of technology, so they’re willing to adopt it in their lives. They don’t necessarily want to be in a location where there’s other people all the time. There’s definitely hinder. And there’s reasons not to pursue remote work, especially for any relationally minded people that thrive being around other people. But yeah, right now, it’s it’s kind of overwhelming. I made that post and I got a lot of messages to respond to from people saying, Okay, you talked about it, where are they? I’ve been looking for a job. And I want to I want to get one. So it’s, it’s been interesting to see, but I suppose I shouldn’t really be surprised by it.

Tim Ulbrich  30:36

Yeah, I’m glad you brought up industry, because that’s a trend that I’ve been watching as well, that makes sense that connection to remote work. I actually talked with a industry fellow recently, who is thinking about geo hacking, to, you know, technically, like there’s not supposed to work remote, but they only have to come in the office about four times a year. And usually it’s 24 hours notice, she says, like, well, for four flights a year, and I can, you know, have a Boston salary without living in Boston, right. But this is a trend I’ve been watching, you know, the data from the workforce still still shows us as a fairly small percentage of the workforce. But it feels like the dialogue around it is a lot bigger. I’ve talked for several pharmacists in the last year, you know, people that have gone from PGY1, one PGY2 to critical care, hemonk specialty roles, sometimes it was from the pandemic that burned them out, you know, others are just looking for other opportunities. And there’s a shift that’s happening to industry. 

Alex Barker  31:32

Yes.

Tim Ulbrich  31:33

 And I’m curious to hear what are you seeing the same and then to what’s driving that? Is it burnout? Is it you know, typically, industry roles come with higher compensation packages, perhaps more volatility, something we’re probably not talking enough about? But what are you seeing as some of the drivers of this shift? And is that a shift you’re seeing? 

Alex Barker  31:52

Oh, yeah, totally. Pharma is the new sexy career to pursue. I just spoke with a professor. I won’t say which school, but I spoke with them about what are students saying they want for preceptors that was like what, what kind of rotations. And she said, it’s always Pharma. That’s what they want. They don’t want clinical anymore. They don’t want community, they get disappointed when they get in a hospital. They want to see pharma jobs. And I think the truth of the matter is, is that the pharma market isn’t ready for this. There isn’t a demand there. There’s a demand on the pharmacists side, there’s a demand from our profession to get more involved, which I think hasn’t been present for the majority of our profession, when I graduated, and I think you can attest to this. We’re getting old Tim, it just hit me. When I graduated pharmacy school, the the the dogma of the time was that you were a bad guy if you went to pharma. You’re just in it for the money, you’re working for the bad guys. You need to be a pharmacist, you need to be a clinician, because then you’re you’re doing what’s right for the patient. Not what’s right for the company. Well, that is almost completely gone. I haven’t heard that from a student once or anything like it, everyone wants to get into it because of the potential for remote work, the potential for work life balance, the potential to just get away from the public. This is a newer one, that at first, I was a little bit surprised by, but for those that are burned out, it makes a lot of sense. You’re not having to deal with angry customers all the time coming at you with any sort of array of problems or anger issues that you cannot predict. It’s tiring to work with the public. And so they see the potential to work in pharma as a way of escaping I think a lot of those things. But it’s not all, you know, sunshine and rainbows in pharma. You know, there’s less job security that’s there, you’re more likely to be let go due to industry changes, market changes. You are more likely to be there, well, I shouldn’t say that with certainty. But there there’s just as many toxic work environments in pharma. There is more job satisfaction by comparison. If you just look for one for one, like job satisfaction rates between pharma and just typical pharmacy, but burnout is still present. So while I know that the opportunity is there, and frankly, like it’s so easy, from my perspective to just get started in doing side gigs in pharma that you can make some extra cash doing those things. But it’s a whole other thing to transition into the field with a job and expect remote, expect a nine to five, Monday through Friday. There are other pressures there for sure. So you have to be careful about who you I mean, what companies you want to get into. The trends are there. I don’t see it going away anytime soon. 

Tim Ulbrich  35:31

Yeah, yeah. And I’ve come to appreciate, you know, this better than I oxys you guys work in this more, but I’ve got a longitudinal appy student right now on an entrepreneurship rotation with us that’s looking at biopharmaceutical industry fellowship programs, and just hearing about all the different spaces within the pharmaceutical industry, I think, you know, in my mind, not speaking for others, tend to paint this broad brush of, you know, industry just like we do and chain and hospital and ambulatory care and academia. But really, there’s layers and details and segments, and yes, you know, MSL roles versus other, you know, regulatory roles. And so, so much to learn about, you know, it’s probably not just fit with pharma, but what is the fit with the specific areas of interest. And from a career placement standpoint, I would think that’s a really important piece to understand to then determine your path for networking and an opportunity.

Alex Barker  36:24

Right, a lot of people think Pharma is just one path. But we’ve identified I think, like eight different sectors. And within each sector, there’s like, eight to 15 different kinds of jobs that pharmacists can do. Some more popular than others. Obviously, clinical medical affairs is way more popular than things like R&D and biotech. But it’s still possible one of our coaches, went from retail chain manager to getting into biotech and helping out with operations. So like, it’s there’s endless possibilities. But it’s a totally different market. It’s not patient care, which is, like, love it or hate it, it’s our bread and butter as a profession. So it does take a leap to get into it. 

Tim Ulbrich  37:14

Yeah, and I think another side conversation that we can have, and save for another day is, you know, so much of the opportunity for our profession does stem whether we like it or not from the public and other’s perception of who we are and what we do. Yeah. And, you know, I don’t think a pub the, the lay public would necessary associate a pharmacist role with being in the industry. So that this goes back and interesting discussion, we think about, like redeployment of our workforce. You know, there’s some sub discussions in there that are really interesting to me of, well, how does that impact the public’s perception of who we are and other healthcare professionals perception of who we are, because right now, we may or may not necessarily like what the perception is, but people largely associate a pharmacist with doing one or two types of things. And we’re now starting to splice that pie chart a little bit further, which is interesting. I think it’s exciting, but also presents maybe some challenges around communicating who we are and what we do. And then how do we educate this pathway that could go in 30 different directions right now we educated to go really in one or two directions. For the most part.

Alex Barker  38:20

You know, I hear a lot of talks about this kind of thing, like within associations, mainly. Maybe a little bit in academia. But I think we have a, we don’t really understand how the market is influencing us. I think the the people in charge of pharmacy, I think for a time they thought, you know, if we just increase our level of education, people will respect us. But hindsight is 2020. And I think it revealed that the market didn’t care. The job market didn’t care. The public didn’t care about this demand. They weren’t telling the powers or regulation, or government bodies, pharmacists need more education. They need to get doctorates in order to do what they can do. And we’re still recoiling from that decision to increase our education, but the job market and the jobs available, don’t demand that higher level of education. So when I think about how we influence the public, I think we put a lot of heavy burdens on ourselves as a profession to try to maintain across the line when we aren’t even looking at the low hanging fruit. So I’ve I’ve publicly said this in a few different places. And there isn’t a whole lot of movement yet because I don’t have the time, but If I was to predict, if everything goes right Tim, and I am able to do this, I would want to create media that positively influences what pharmacists do can do. And I don’t mean cheesy patient stories or pharmacist stories about how they can save person’s life, you know, those are good. They’re good. But like, we need a Hallmark movie about a pharmacist falling in love. We need…

Tim Ulbrich  40:36

Is there a producer of Hallmark that’s listening to the show? We’ll found out.

Alex Barker  40:39

Like maybe, I hope! we need a Breaking Bad story about a pharmacist who, who has a tragic backstory to him and he goes into the pharmacy, does what he can for the community, At night, he’s like a vigilante busting of drug rings. We need video games that showcase what we can do. I don’t know what it is exactly. But we need to influence the public much differently about who we are and what we’re capable of. Because until the public gets it, they’re not going to go along with this idea of oh, I need to schedule an appointment with a pharmacist and I need to pay a pharmacist to do something for me. When for decades, if not well over a century or two, it’s been free to talk to us. You can’t just undo that, because we now have a doctorate. It is going to take decades, if not centuries, to get people to see that we’re different. We can do things we can we can change people’s lives, we can save people’s lives with what we do. But we’re not going to just make it happen if we just make the service. So that’s my Hallmark movie pitch.

Tim Ulbrich  42:09

I love it. Well, speaking of Hallmark movie pitches, maybe we’ll have it in time for the timeframe of my next question, which is 10 years from now. So your vision of our profession in 2033. And let me give you some background statistics that kind of frame where we’ve been starting in 2013 to 2023. And then I’ll ask where you think we may be in 2033. So 2013, we had a little over 60,000  – 62,000 that were enrolled in a PharmD program. The median debt load of a pharmacy graduate was $130,000. And median salary was around $116,000. In 2023, fast forward 10 years actually, some of this is 2022 data, we’re down from 62 to about 47,000 enrolled in a PharmD program. And we know that’s still going down further. Median debt load is $158,000, up from 130. And then finally, we’re seeing the average farmer salary is up from about $116k to $129k. And we know there’s some limitations with with BLS data, but we’ll use that for the sake of the conversation. And then if we draw the pie chart right now, using the workforce survey data we have from 2022. If you combine those that are working in independent pharmacy, mass merchandiser chain, etc, it’s about 50% of our profession, about a quarter, 24%,  or an inpatient/hospital/health system practice. And then the remaining 25% is a spattering of all different types, you know, managed care, fusion, academia, ambulatory care, etc. So when you think about income, when you think about enrollment, when you think about jobs, when you think about types of jobs, like where are we in 10 years? Because I think one of the questions that I think a lot about is where would things be moving with or without the guardrails of the State Boards of Pharmacy? Right, but I think you use this situation we’re in right now that led to a lot of the walkouts and things. The State Board of Pharmacy response has been largely speaking very pro pharmacist. Yeah, obviously, technology, automation for profit companies, all that, perhaps would be moving much faster if it weren’t for that. So I’m just curious where in 10 years, do you see us going as a profession?

Alex Barker  44:34

I can’t wait for 10 years when I listen to this and I go, Oh, Alex. Oh, Alex, if you only knew. So I’ll lay out my biases. I try to be more optimistic than pessimistic. I believe innovation is a great thing. But it’s not without its casualties. Um, and I have a lot of half baked theories. So a lot some of this is going to come across as like, Where’s that coming from? I think in 10 years time, it’s 2023, almost 2020, or I’m sorry, 2020 or 2034? Yeah, I think what will happen, is PBMs are going to get a lot more pressure put on them from lawmakers and the public. I don’t know if they’ll still exist by then. We are the only nation in the world, I believe that uses this model. And it’s a broken, unsustainable model. It’s already starting to get some pressure put on it from a few different places. But these organizations have a lot of money. So they’re not going to go down without kicking and screaming. It’s going to be a fight. And I think there’s going to be some major legislation and court cases to be had over the next couple of years. I think that innovation will continue to drive service delivery within the pharmacy sector. So I think that this is going to drive market demand. I speculate that there will be a new role invented by 10 years from now. I don’t think it will be a pharmacist focus role. I think it will be like a pharmacy advanced technician. I’ve already seen some, like courses and certifications and things in place for that. But I think that the tech check tech programs have been validated enough, both through I mean, we all heard about that Walgreens technician who faked being a pharmacist for 10 years. Right? Do you remember that a few years back, like 2018-2019. That was the biggest tech check tech program ever, with 10s of 1000s of prescriptions that were apparently safely approved by a technician, not a pharmacist. So I believe that there’s going to be almost like a new profession of an advanced pharmacy technician, or call it a downgraded pharmacist. Maybe a pharmacist who only needs- only needs- a bachelor’s. And because that’s what is needed in hospitals and community pharmacy. You do not need a doctorate to practice pharmacy and those settings under current market conditions, current market conditions

Tim Ulbrich  47:47

In a distribution role. 

Alex Barker  47:49

Exactly. So I think Ohio is a great example of this. I think more and more clinical services will be passed through laws and legislation that will create new jobs. However, my fear is that it’s going to be the same story as MTM. I think that we’re based on the things that I’ve read, I don’t know how confident I feel that we are negotiating for all of our worth. And we’re gonna get another bad deal like MTM. So I think that more consultancies, more service oriented pharmacy solutions will be created over the next 10 years that’ll create really interesting and doctorate level positions, to be sure. But you know, everyone, I wasn’t there when MTM was created. But I remember and I’ve read the articles that people thought this is the wave. This is what we can do. And it’s been over 25 years, I think since its implementation. 

Tim Ulbrich  48:56

2006 was the implementation.

Alex Barker  48:59

Oh, was it? Okay, yeah. 

Tim Ulbrich  49:03

I think it was implemented with Medicare. My I’m sure Rob somebody correct me. I think it was Medicare Part D in 2006. 

Alex Barker  49:09

Yeah, I got into college 2006. So I definitely wasn’t paying attention. So it’s been like 20, almost 20 years. And it’s very rare to see a business successfully implementing it. It’s viewed more as a distraction now and so my my wonder is how well are we going to be able to negotiate that into actual payment for services. And I think that innovation will continue in technology and that will replace a lot of what is happening. I optimistically, am hoping for pharmacies to be more like clinics, almost as in a like, a step down from urgent care. But like this is the first place you go to with a problem or a question. And there could be some sort of billing process that could be developed through there. And really how these things can be profitable as both through services, but then also all of the front end stuff, all of stuff that actually makes pharmacies money today, which is not prescriptions. That’s the loss leader and has been now for well over a decade. I think that’s only going to continue unless PBMs power is somehow supplanted. But for what stands in its place, you’re talking, oh, my gosh, think about the amount of time and reform is going to be in place for something like that. In to the final point, which was about students, I really don’t think that pharmacy is going to bounce back in the next five to 10 years in terms of interest. Unless something significant happens from some sort of marketing perspective. Because right now, everyone in forums and online spaces, making it really clear that the money, the salary, the six figure job, which is like the new sexy thing, I don’t know, if you pay attention to that at all, but like, you know, there’s this whole trend right now of people saying like, Oh, they don’t even want to date someone unless they make six figures. Yeah, I’m so glad I’m not dating. But people are making it really clear, like, hey, the salary is great, but it’s not worth it. The debt, the workload, the stress. And this new generation, like we talked about earlier, is just not willing to take that they’re not willing to risk it to get the money, but potentially, like hate their jobs and their lives. So I think interest is going to decrease, which in turn, of course, means increases the salary for us, increases the demand for us from companies. But with innovation, technology, I don’t know how it’s all going to balance out. Those are some of my predictions, some hopeful, some not so hopeful.

Tim Ulbrich  52:17

It’s interesting. I think there’s, as I’ve expressed you before, like, we need more of a space to have these types of conversations and bring in other types of opinions and stakeholders, you know, without, without, you know, feeling like we have to walk on eggshells, you know, and to have those conversations and, you know, you do have to make some assumptions, right. And there’s gonna be some optimistic things, and some that aren’t as optimistic. But one of the things that I’ve always thought is interesting that you alluded to in your comments there is we have a physical footprint that is very unique all across the country. Now misaligned with a business model that is sustainable, and and one that people want to be working in, right, that’s the challenge that we’re in. But we have an interesting physical footprint that was developed. And we’ve run into challenges. You know, I think the maybe the vision 5-10 years ago was a really, pharmacists can fill a gap in the need for primary care of a shortage of which that shortage is getting greater and greater, as less and less physicians want to go into primary care, and they want to go into more specialties. Unfortunately, you know that I don’t really want to say that ship has sailed, but it’s pretty darn close when you look at what PAs and NPs have done in the inroads they’ve made. But we have this physical footprint, which is a very interesting thing to be thinking about. And is it in competition with is a different than primary, you know, what are the different ways we could be thinking about this, but I do think there’s some interesting opportunities here that need a lot more thought and discussion, and you bring up several of those right there. So that’s good stuff. As people are listening, if they’re thinking about making a career transition, maybe it’s a hey, I’m ready right now maybe it’s, this is something I want to be thinking about over the for, you know, future that’s coming up. Where’s the best place, Alex, that they can go to follow you, follow your work and get plugged into the resources that you have available?

Alex Barker  54:11

I think the biggest question people have is, What can I do? Will the next place be any better than what I currently have? Yeah. Are there other career paths for me? And those are all great questions that you don’t have to figure out by yourself. I spent five years trying to figure that out. When when Tim hired me as a coach, that that was a point in my life where I still wasn’t even really solidified in, hey, do I want to go into academia? Or do I want to create a business? And that takes a lot of time and effort on your part. One of the things that can really benefit you is talking to someone who is an expert on career development, and getting a perspective that is outside of you, with someone who knows and understands pharmacy. What I would encourage you to do is to go to our website, thehappypharmd.com, I’m sure we’ll have a link in the show notes, and talk with one of our career advisors. We have two of them on staff with us, Eric and Samar. And they’ve talked with literally hundreds and hundreds of pharmacists. And really, the first step that a lot of people take is like looking at, what can I do, and deciding on a path that makes the most sense for you, and then creating the strategy to transition, and not wasting a whole lot of time doing things like applying to countless jobs, that you may or may not even like, wasting time, not having productive conversations with people. But instead, I would encourage you, talk with us, have a conversation, it’s free to do so just like talking with a pharmacist. It’s free to hang out with us. And in that, you’ll get a little bit of a clearer vision of what you can do, and some next action steps to take. And if you do want to work with a coach, we can talk to you about what that is like, what it’s like working with a coach, and how right now what we do with our clients is we work with them until they get a job. So I’m really excited about the future of pharmacy because we’re helping people get all sorts of cool and awesome jobs, like just last week, talked to someone getting an MSL role. So it’s happening, there are opportunities out there. But I think there’s a smart way of going about it. One that is faster, takes a little bit less effort on your part. That’s with us.

Tim Ulbrich  56:41

Well, great, we will link to that in the show notes happy thehappypharmd.com. I’ll also link to Alex’s LinkedIn profile. If you’re not already following him on LinkedIn, I would highly encourage it. I enjoy the insights you share on the career market that we have going on, I really look at you as an expert in the space. So I’m sure we’ll have you on once if not twice in 2024. But for now, appreciate the recap, you’ve given us where we’re at and potentially where we’re heading. So thanks so much for coming on the show.

Alex Barker  57:08

Thanks for having me, Tim.

[DISCLAIMER]

Tim Ulbrich  57:12

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 309: Top 10 Tax Blunders Pharmacists Make


Sean Richards, CPA, EA, outlines the ten most common mistakes he saw pharmacists make throughout the most recent tax season. This episode is sponsored by First Horizon.

About Today’s Guest

Sean Richards, CPA, EA, received his undergraduate degree in Corporate Finance and Accounting, as well as his Master of Accountancy, from Bentley University in Waltham, MA. Sean has been a Certified Public Accountant (CPA) since 2015 and received his Enrolled Agent certification earlier this year. Prior to joining the YFP team, Sean was the Senior Treasury Manager at PRA Group, a global debt buyer based in Norfolk, VA. He began his career at American Tower Corporation where, over 10 years, he held several positions in audit, treasury, and accounting. As the Director of YFP Tax, Sean focuses on broadening the company’s existing tax planning and preparation operations, as well as developing and launching new accounting offerings, including bookkeeping, payroll, and fractional CFO services.

Episode Summary

The tax filing deadline is behind us so time to sit back and relax, right?! As YFP Director of Tax, Sean Richards, CPA, EA, tells us today, it’s important we are keeping tax front of mind year-round to avoid common blunders that show up during tax filing season. During this episode, Sean outlines ten of the most common mistakes he saw pharmacists make throughout the tax season including his thoughts on how year-round planning can help mitigate these mistakes.

Key Points From the Episode

  • Sean gives us his tax-season rundown.
  • The award for the most difficult state for tax returns! 
  • Sean takes us through ten of the most common tax mistakes made by pharmacists. 
  • The cause of the ‘unwelcome surprises’ and how to avoid them.
  • Not taking advantage of tax laws: energy credits.
  • Underestimating the power of the HSA; a grossly underutilized tool of the financial plan.
  • A good reminder about over-contribution.
  • Having someone in your court to help you avoid taking nonqualified IRA distributions.
  • Not saving for taxes when earning additional income.
  • Also for our side hustlers: not expecting the FICA tax on self-employment income.
  • Some of the mishaps and mistakes that have to do with employer-dependent care.
  • Not factoring in PSLF when choosing a filing status.
  • Reporting implications: overlooking considerations with cryptocurrency.
  • A bonus mishap: education around extensions.
  • How year-round strategy planning can help pharmacists optimize their tax situation.

Episode Highlights

“I know, taxes aren’t something that people love to think about and want to be excited about but it’s one of those things where if you sweep it under the rug, it’s not going anywhere, it’s only going to grow under there.” — Sean Richards [0:6:55]

“If you’re making money that’s outside of a W2, whether it’s investment income, capital gains, whether it’s a side hustle, really anything where you’re not seeing that federal income tax withheld line, you better be putting taxes aside or being ready to pay that at the end of the year.” — Sean Richards [0:21:45]

“Crypto is treated like an investment as far as the IRS is concerned. It’s like a stock.” — Sean Richards [0:31:39]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrick here, and thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

On today’s episode, I welcome the director of tax, Sean Richards, back onto the show. Now that he has had a chance to take a breath from the last few months, working toward the tax filing deadline, I pick Sean’s brain about some of the most common blunders that he saw pharmacists make throughout the season and how year-round planning can help individuals not only avoid these mistakes but also optimize their tax situation.

If you’re looking to learn more about how YFP’s comprehensive tax planning service can help you and your tax situation, go to yfptax.com. Again, that’s yfptax.com Okay, let’s hear it from today’s sponsor, and then we’ll jump into the show.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[0:00:48.3] TU: Does saving 20% for a downpayment on a home feel like an uphill battle? It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high student loan debt, meaning that saving 20% for a downpayment on a home may take years. We’ve been on a hunt for a solution for pharmacists that are ready to purchase a home loan with a lower downpayment and are happy to have found that option with First Horizon.

First Horizon offers a professional home loan option, AKA, a doctor or pharmacist home loan that requires a 3% downpayment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time home buyers, has no PMI, and offers a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage on home loans up to USD 726,200. The pharmacist home loan is available in all states except Alaska and Hawaii and can be used to purchase condos as well. However, rates may be higher and a condo review has to be completed. 

To check out the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, and to start the pre-approval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:00.2] TU: Sean, welcome back to the show.

[0:02:01.8] SR: Thanks for having me. Yeah, it feels like it’s been a while but I think that’s just because tax season tends to you know, slow time down for some of us over here.

[0:02:09.7] TU: You look much more rested than I saw you just a few weeks ago. So here we are on the other side of the tax filing deadline. We’re going to talk all in this episode about some of what you saw this season with the hopes that pharmacists can prevent some of those mishaps as they work throughout the year on their taxes but looks like you’ve been – haven’t had a chance to maybe recharge and refresh on sleep. So how are you feeling post-tax of mine?

[0:02:34.3] SR: Yeah, I’m feeling great. I’ve been catching up on some of the things that have been put on side burners so to speak but definitely getting a little bit of sleep, catching up with the family and stuff. It feels good. I’m well rested, there are still some things to tie up from last year but ready to move forward and look ahead to next year and like you said, try to hopefully get some of these ideas in people’s minds so they can plan now and not have any of this kind of hiccups or roadblocks come up next year.

[0:02:59.5] TU: So give us the rundown. I know there’s still work to be done with some of the individual and business extensions and some of the more complicated returns but how many returns did you and the team do thus far?

[0:03:09.2] SR: We did over 200 federal returns and a similar number on the state side. So I mean, if you think some folks have multiple states, some people are in states that don’t have taxes so you know, you kind of, they work themselves out there but yeah, over 200 federal returns. We did a fair number of extensions, there are some business returns mixed in there, so it’s kind of all over the place but that’s the rough number between the few of us here.

So definitely, it feels like quite an accomplishment here but yup, I mean, definitely have some of those more complex returns that we want to give a little bit more TLC to, those are still hanging out there. So now that we’re past the big push, we can really focus and try to maximize savings for those folks. So excited.

[0:03:48.1] TU: Which state, Sean? Which state wins the award for the most difficult state when it comes to returns?

[0:03:53.3] SR: Boy, I don’t know if I’m going to be getting a misery love company or if I’m going to be jading people because I feel like a lot of our listeners kind of land in this territory where our headquarters are but I had to say, Ohio, probably gets the cake, Pennsylvania right up there, close second but yeah, those two are probably the worst I’d have to say. 

So again, hopefully, people aren’t sitting there saying, “I love those states” and if that’s the case, you know, all the power to you but not for me.

[0:04:20.8] TU: Yeah and one of the opportunities, challenges, depending on how you want to look with it, you know, we’ve got tax clients, financial planning clients all across the country, which is a unique opportunity and challenge when you think about all of the nuances that happen, especially in the tax side, right? On a state basis or even here in Ohio, we have the RITA, Regional Income Tax Authority, did I get that right Sean?

[0:04:43.1] SR: Yup, you got it right.

[0:04:43.9] TU: Which provides another wrinkle. So it’s fun to hear you and the team complain about Ohio and PA and you know, some of the other states perhaps are a little bit easier. So let’s jump into the most common mistakes Sean, that you and the tax team so far is just making and we’ve compiled these on our website, yfptax.com. If you want to download these and read a little bit more information on each one, please do that.

So we’re going to go through this one by one and again, the hope of this is that we really want to shift the perspective around taxes that the only time we think about taxes are April, when we’re filing, right? This really needs to be proactive year-round planning. We’ll talk more about that at the end of the show and that’s why we thought, “Hey, here we are in the month of May, tax season is over but this is not a, ‘Put it up on the shelf, worry about it ‘till next year.’”

This is the prime opportunity to really be learning from the season that just was and looking at the opportunities ahead of how can we best optimize the situation before we get back into the filing next year. Again, If you want to download a copy of the guide where we talk about some of these mistakes, you can go to yfptax.com and do that. So number one on our list Sean, perhaps the most common, I would presume, you can tell me if otherwise is folks that got a surprise bill or a surprise refund when they got to filing. 

So my question here is, tell us more but what is the usual cause of these unwelcomed surprises?

[0:06:14.7] SR: Yeah, I would say that’s the most common and it’s probably purely because if you take a lot of these other things that we’ll talk about, they all sort of work their way into that at the end of the day. You know, if you’re making a mistake, somewhere along the way, you’re probably going to end up with either a large bill or a large refund, so it kind of encapsulates everything.

Yeah, and just to kind of go back to your point before, this really is the best time to be looking at these things. I mean, any time of the year is good but when you’re coming off tax season, you might be disappointed or looking at things saying, “Oh, that didn’t go the way I hoped it would, I had a bill or I had the refund.” You don’t want to just kind of say, “Oh, finally, I’m done with it, we’re passed the 18th, I’m filed” and sort of shake your hands off and say because what’s going to happen is you’ll be in the same spot next year. 

I mean, I know, taxes aren’t something that people love to think about and want to be excited about but it’s one of those things where if you sweep it under the rug, it’s not going anywhere, it’s only going to grow under there. So yeah, the surprise bills and refunds, I mean, that can really be a litany of different things that can cause it. The biggest thing I would say probably by far is really just simply not withholding correctly at your job.

And this one frustrates a lot of folks and I don’t blame people because you know, people will say, “Hey, I’ve been at the same company for a while now” or “You know, my situation’s not that complex, how can they not be withholding properly?” and I have to say as a tax accountant, I don’t love the new W4 that the IRS rolled out a few years ago. If anyone working for the IRS is listening to this and they want to give me their opinion on it, feel free, my line is open because you know, I’m a tax accountant.

[0:07:43.0] TU: I don’t think we have many pharmacists that are IRS agents.

[0:07:44.7] SR: Oh hey, you never know, there’s a little bit of overlap here. You don’t have to be a pharmacist to listen to the pod but no, I mean, with that one, I just, I really wish there was a way as an accountant to be able to say “Hey, withhold 18% from this client, please. Just withhold 20% from this client” but it’s not that simple. I know what they’re trying to do, they want to make it more user-friendly where folks kind of can’t mess that stuff up, or if they don’t know how to come up with that number, it’s supposed to kind of guide you through it. 

So I think the biggest thing there is that the W4 is sort of designed to try to pick up everything else that’s going on in your financial life aside from just that one job that you’re working and typically, what will happen is folks will get married and they won’t update their filing status or they’ll get married or maybe not even get married but say, they already were married, their spouse gets another job. 

They have a side gig and these are all things that you know if your company – your system doesn’t really know that that’s happening, right? So if you’re making money off to the side, doing another job, you work multiple jobs, your spouse works multiple jobs, you know all those things factor into what your tax bill is going to be at the end of the day and if your company doesn’t know what’s going on then it can’t withhold properly and I say, your company, the payroll company was kind of doing all that stuff behind the scenes.

So that one is tough because there’s not a perfect answer. Really, the best way to do it is to take a look in the middle of the year and say, “Okay, where am I at, where was I at last year?” You know obviously if you had any kind of issues last year, you can submit a new W4 and how to change that but doing a projection midyear, take a look at what you’ve already withheld, what you withheld last year, and try to tweak that now, that’s definitely the best time to do it.

[0:09:19.1] TU: Yeah, and we’re going to come back to that topic Sean, of a mid-year projection, why it’s so important on the tax side as we get into the summer months. So stay tuned for more. Again, we’re going to be talking tax all throughout the year as we think it’s certainly an important part of the financial plan. So that’s number one, would be a surprise bill of refund at filing. 

Number two Sean, not taking advantage of tax laws. This makes me think of some of the recent changes that you’ve talked about before on the show surrounding the inflation reduction act, and the electric vehicle credits. I know this seemed to cause a fair amount of confusion and concern this year during tax season, and maybe some surprises as well. So what are you referring to here as it relates to not taking advantage of the tax laws?

[0:10:00.8] SR: Yeah, and with that in particular, I mean, we keep kind of harping on the energy credits but that’s where the tax law tends to be going now. I mean, all these things that are coming out, there are changes sort of across the board but the biggest piece and where the biggest dollar savings are tend to be these renewable energy credits, improvements to your home that are energy efficient, things like that.

And yeah, at the end of last year, the inflation reduction act went in and there was a lot of confusion as to which credits change when those credits change. So some of the electric vehicle stuff happened at the day that the law actually went into effect, whereas some of the other energy credits like home improvements like I mentioned, windows and things like that, didn’t really increase until this year, 2023 going forward. 

So there were folks who spent money last year and were expecting a larger credit for their taxes in 2022 and didn’t see that. So it’s really just, you know, it’s difficult to stay on top of the tax law, especially if you’re not a tax accountant or aren’t familiar with those types of things and especially if you want to stay out of politics too but it’s really challenging because it’s one of those things where if you’re not spending the money in the right timeframe, it’s not something you can go back and change after the fact. 

You know, if you put windows on your house now that’s a 2023 event. When we’re doing your taxes in 2024, we can’t say “Hey, I wish you had not done your windows because they’re already done.” So it’s something where it’s really important to make sure that if you’re spending money, thinking that you’re going to get a credit or you’re hoping you’re going to get a credit, really understanding when those things go into effect, what the dollar value is, and what the limits are. 

That’s another thing that some of these things, they’re increasing their limits but they do still exist. So you know, if you spend, USD 50,000 on an improvement, you’re not necessarily going to get a USD 50,000 credit.

[0:11:42.6] TU: Yeah, and we’ve got some info on this, yfptax.com, we’re going to be updating this throughout the year as well so make sure to check out the information there and Sean, this is just another testament to why the year-round planning is so important, right?

If we’re looking at this in the tax year, so here we are, now in 2023, obviously, next spring, spring 2024, we’ll be filing for 2023. At that point, right? Decisions have been made in terms of what happened during that year.

So are there adjustments that we can be making mid-year or are there tax laws and situations like this that we can make sure we’re up to speed or at least have the right understanding before we make some of these bigger purchases that may or may not have the impact that we’re hoping they’re going to have.

So that’s number two, not taking advantage of the tax laws. Number three, Sean. I have to say this one pained me a little bit because we’ve talked so much about this on the show.

[0:12:34.4] SR: So much.

[0:12:35.1] TU: Which is, underestimating the power of the HSA, the health savings account. You know, we’ve continued to emphasize how this – only has tax advantages but we still see this as an utter underutilized tool in terms of the financial plan. So tell us more about what you’re seeing here.

[0:12:51.8] SR: Yeah, I think with the HSA, it’s one of those things where people think, “Oh, I need to have a lot of medical expenses to take advantage of it. If I’m putting money there and I don’t use it, I’m not going to get the full advantage of it” but really, you need to not have that mindset and really think of it as a secondary retirement vehicle basically where if you do have expenses that you need to take advantage of it, it exists for you. 

But if you think of it almost as a second IRA or something like that, then it kind of shifts that mindset of, “Oh, I need to have these health expenses” but yeah, HSAs, I know, ad nauseum we talk about it but they have the triple tax benefit. You get the deduction for your contributions, you get tax-free growth and you get to take it out tax-free. So you rarely see that triple tax benefit. This is one of those ones where there is a little bit more flexibility. 

I just mentioned some of those credits and having to get the dollar spent during the year. You have a little bit of flexibility with the HSA where you usually have up until the filing deadline to actually make contributions or on the flip side and we saw a lot of this is people who work multiple jobs or got married in kind of weren’t talking to their spouse and over-contributed. So you want to make sure if you did that, you pull that money out so you avoid any penalties there.

And again, you have a little bit of flexibility after year-end to make those changes but to any extent you can avoid that, obviously, it makes sense but yeah, the limits are going up next year. I think 77.50 for a family plan, you have to be on a high deductible plan but if you are and you’re not taking advantage, you’re really just losing out on that benefit honestly.

[0:14:15.5] TU: Sean, I’m glad you mentioned the over-contribution mishap that might happen here and I think it’s a good reminder. Tim Baker was my ear, you know, anytime we talk about backdoor or Roth IRAs, he’s always beaten the drama of you know, really there’s a lot of nuances to consider and we see on the planning side, our planning team works with a lot of folks that you know, are trying to unwind some of the mistakes related to the backdoor Roth IRA contributions.

And I think it’s a good reminder that as there’s more and more information out there, right? We talk about HSAs, it’s readily available, something you can learn about that yeah, we still have to cross out Ts and dot our Is and I think having someone in your corner, right? Financial planners, tax professionals, perhaps both that can help make sure we’re executing this properly, really, really important. 

Number four on the list, Sean, taking nonqualified IRA distributions. We are talking before the show, perhaps maybe even a little bit broader than IRAs, tell us more about this one.

[0:15:09.0] SR: Yeah, IRAs are really just kind of retirement plans in general. I know we just mentioned HSA as they’re a sort of a secondary retirement vehicle but just not taking advantage or properly utilizing IRAs. So we’ll start with the IRA piece, there are a couple of different things there. You can get a deduction for traditional IRA contributions.

Folks typically phase out of that pretty quickly and then the next kind of phase-out level will be your Roth contributions and kind of what you were just alluding to is that folks also kind of pretty quickly phase out of that as well and that’s one of those things where you don’t want to end up at the end of the year saying, “Ah, you made too much money but you already contributed this to your Roth.” 

So now you’re going to go back and pull it out and then try to do the backdoor that Tim was talking about. So yeah, to any extent, again, you can have somebody in your corner where you can say, “Hey, this is what I’ve done so far this year, does this make sense? Am I going to over contribute, am I going to be in a good spot? Do I have room to contribute more?” Definitely make sense to do and again, you know the IRA limits are going up next year.

Again, the contribution limit. So taking advantage of that makes a lot of sense and the other piece that you didn’t really mention there but we kind of alluded to is just retirements in general. I mean, 401(k)s at people’s businesses, not taking advantage of those. You know, having extra cash on hand and not maxing out your 401(k) whether it’s a Roth to get the benefits in the future or a traditional to get that tax benefit now. 

I mean, either way, we saw a lot of situations where folks had a lot of cushion there and could have contributed more and that’s one where that at 1231, you can’t go back. So can’t turn back time, got to get those in before the year and again, having someone in your court to say, “Hey, you know, you’ve only contributed up to 30% of your 401(k) and we’re already in October, you might want to do some catch ups” is really important.

[0:16:47.8] TU: Sean, did you get a feel, I’m just curious, from folks that, if I heard you correctly, it looked like they’re wise margin there. They could have made those contributions or as cash on hand but didn’t. You know is that just a, “Hey, we overlooked it” or do you have a sense of you know, some of the volatility in the market, inflation, what’s going on in the broader economy, that there’s some hesitancy in the contributions into the retirement vehicles and people wanting to hold on to more of that cash.

[0:17:11.2] SR: It could be a lot of different things. I mean, it could also just be an education thing. I mean, I know, even when I first started out at a corporate job coming out of the school, you get all these different paperwork and everything and they say, “Here’s your 401(k), here’s this, here’s that” and you’re just saying, “Okay, I want to get the company match. Great, I’ll put this amount down and everything” and you don’t really realize that you have a limit that you can hit yourself and kind of capitalize on. 

So I think it’s really just a matter of maybe not looking at cash flow, like you were saying, potentially not taking a look at that in the middle of the year. I don’t think there’s a whole lot of hesitancy with the market or anything like that. I think it’s more just a matter of, you kind of set it and forget it and you know, you come to the end of the year and somebody says to you, “Hey, did you know that you could have knocked USD 5,000 off of your taxable income if you’d contributed more to your 401(k)?” and a lot of people just say, “I didn’t know that” so.

[0:17:59.3] TU: Yeah, yup. Seeing the numbers, right? I think in help and hindsight and you know, once you see the impact on the tax situation like, “All right, got it, point made, I’ll make that a correction for next year.” Number five, Sean, I think is one we have not yet talked enough about on this show, which is not employing a bunching strategy for charitable giving.

So here without talking obviously about donations and really looking at how to potentially alternate as you look at the standard deduction and then bunching these and those off year. So tell us more about this one.

[0:18:30.5] SR: Yup. So this one is more of a unique scenario. It’s one that we always take a look at but not everybody’s going to fall into this bucket but if you do, it’s something that if you’re able to take advantage of, it can be very, very powerful. So the idea of bunching is really trying to pull itemized deductions as much as you can into one year and then in the next year, not having as many and taking the standard deduction because it just getting higher and higher nowadays. 

I mean, just the number of folks that we see taking the standard deduction, even though they have things like mortgage interest and taxes that they’re paying for still taking advantage of the standard deduction because it’s so much higher. 

So yeah, if you’re looking at it and you say, “Hey, you know, I was USD 500 away from the standard reduction” or “I itemized USD 500 more than the standard deduction this year” and you had quite a bit of charitable contributions, if you’re able, again, sort of pull those in and say, “Hey, if I’m going to do a thousand dollars over the next two years, I’m going to do a thousand dollars this year and maybe not anything next year” and you can do it on 1231 so you kind of the same feel for giving to them that the charity.

But, if you’re able to do that and take advantage of it, it can be really powerful, and that way you’re not losing out. That was one thing we got a lot of is, “Hey, I have a house and I paid this mortgage interest but I am taking the standard deduction. So am I losing that benefit?” and it’s not the best way to look at it but you’re not really getting the full benefit if you’re doing it that way.

[0:19:50.1] TU: Yeah, as you mentioned, this really applies, not to say that everyone, depending on the amounts of folks are giving but especially for those individuals that are giving additional dollars to various organizations, churches, nonprofits, communities, et cetera, there could be some real benefits to the bunching strategy and I’m you know, one who is victim to this in terms of just behavior, right? 

Where you might have contributions on an automatic monthly payment or you’re planning for it throughout the year and you just don’t take the time to take a step back and say, “Okay, from a strategy standpoint, I’m going to do the standard deduction this year and then we’re going to do the bunching strategy next year.” So again, just some proactive planning to make this happen.

[0:20:31.6] SR: And it doesn’t always work for everybody because I mean, I talk to people who said, “Hey, that doesn’t match my giving strategy” and that’s perfectly fine.

[0:20:37.8] TU: Sure, yup.

[0:20:38.3] SR: It’s really just if you wanted to help out your financial strategy, there are options out there. I’m not saying you should change the way you give to your charities. It just exists, right?

[0:20:48.6] TU: Number six and number seven are specifically for folks out there that are earning some additional income, side hustling, business income. So number six, Sean, not saving for taxes when earning additional income.

It sounds obvious but we see more and more pharmacists that are dabbling in various side hustles, consulting businesses, so I think this is becoming a more prevalent mistake, probably one that maybe you make once and then you don’t make again but talk to us about what you’re saying here.

[0:21:16.4] SR: Yeah. So I mean, it does sound simple on the surface but again, if you’re not used to it or it’s not something that you’ve kind of done before, it’s not second nature, I guess. So right, if you, you know, you work a W2 job, that federal income tax is being taken out, hopefully correctly, although as I mentioned in the first thing here, sometimes it’s not correct but you know, hopefully, your income tax is being taken out at the end of the year.

You sort of do a true-up and maybe owe a little bit, maybe you get a little bit back but that’s that. If you’re making money that’s outside of a W2, whether it’s investment income, capital gains, whether it’s a side hustle, or really anything where you’re not seeing that federal income tax withheld line, you better be putting taxes aside or being ready to pay that at the end of the year and like you said, typically, that’s one where if you make the mistake, you don’t do it again in the future. 

But you know, I think some people are just really excited about making money and they want to pour the money back into their business, which is perfectly fine. You know, we want to encourage people to build their businesses and invest back in but just make sure you’re setting aside enough at the end of the year to kind of make sure you have at least a little bit of a cushion there and having somebody to do that calculation for you. 

Because you know, just because you’re going to – you think you’re going to net this much at the end of the year, doesn’t mean that that’s what your tax bill will be. I mean, there’s lots of ins and outs there, different things you can do. So having somebody to be able to take a look and say, “Hey, you know, as of right now, you’ve made 50k of non-withheld income so you’re going to want to put 20% of that aside, 25% of that aside, just be ready for it.”

[0:22:45.8] TU: Yeah, and I think there’s here, a couple of pieces you’re highlighting, right? Which are the mechanics of where do I save it, how much should I be saving based on how much I’m earning, and then at what point do I need to be making quarterly estimated payments and I do this, right? 

I reached out to you and say, “Hey Sean, we’re coming up on the Q1 estimated payment.” Like based on what we’re seeing in terms of the financial statements like, what’s the plan, and then we’re saving in a tax account along the way to be ready for those payments. So good thing, right? If you’re paying tax, you’re growing the business. 

[0:23:15.0] SR: Exactly and I will admit the IRS estimated payment process, it doesn’t really even feel that natural. I mean, you are kind of doing the math yourself, going onto the website and just saying, “All right, here it is” and they just take it and then at the end of the year, it does. It comes into your play, it’s one of the lines where you basically say, “Okay, what did you withhold? What did you pay in? What did you owe?” and we do the math on it. 

But it just feels like you’re sort of sending money out into the abyss when you make the payments. So I kind of understand that folks are a little apprehensive and would rather hold off but again, I mean, I’m conservative. I’m a tax accountant but at the end of the day, I’d rather get a little bit more money back than owe a lot of money. 

[0:23:55.0] TU: Yeah and Sean, a separate conversation for a separate day. This is a little bit more to the business strategy but one of the things that I like about withholding at least a quarter of it but at least on your own side even on a monthly basis is it forces you to look at the financials of the business a little bit more closely, right? 

So I think there can be a tendency if I am not paying tax and then I get either caught off by a surprise bill or I just wait until the end of the year and pay it, you know, you may fall into the trap of assuming your business is more profitable than it actually is and so really looking at what is the service, what’s the product you’re offering and what’s the true financials if you’re considering the tax. 

[0:24:31.1] SR: Not to go too far off but another big thing is that a lot of people kind of just assume that cash and profit are the same thing. 

[0:24:36.4] TU: Exactly. 

[0:24:37.1] SR: That’s not always the situation, right? So you could have a big profit at the end of the day but if you are pouring that cash back in, you might not have any cash on hand. So they don’t always go one for one and if you get away from that it can really end up causing some problems for sure. 

[0:24:51.7] TU: Preach it, Sean. We need to come back and do an episode on that, the difference between cash on hand and profit of a business, so that’s a good one. 

[0:24:58.3] SR: Yeah, that one, I’ll make a note because that could be like a double episode but yep, I’ll put that one on the back burner for sure. 

[0:25:04.7] TU: So that’s number six, not saving for taxes when you’re earning additional income. Number seven, also for our side hustlers and those that are running a business, not expecting the FICA tax on self-employment income. Tell us more about the FICA tax here. 

[0:25:17.7] SR: Yep, so that’s kind of similar varied, similar vein as to what we were just talking about really just having to kind of put that money aside but again, something that’s not second nature. It’s not something that you’d really be typically thinking about until you get into this and potentially make a mistake, hopefully not but right. When you have these W2 jobs and the money is being taken out, you’re withholding for yourself and you’re paying social security and Medicare, which we call FICA for yourself. 

Your employer is paying half of that for you whether you realize it or not and when you are self-employed, so you have a partnership or your own kind of business and you are getting that money in, you have to pay that portion of FICA yourself. Now, the benefit is that you get that employer portion that the employer typically would be paying for you on a W2. You do get that as a deduction, so it helps a little bit but yeah. 

I mean, that what was it? 15.7% or whatever for FICA is coming out of your bill at the end of the day. So on top of the regular income tax you have to set aside, you should really be saving for that as well. That’s where you’ve heard me say before, you know, 20, 25%, maybe up to 30% depending on what your bracket is, you start to add that FICA in on top of it and you could be looking at quite a bit to be setting aside. 

[0:26:27.6] TU: Yeah Sean, this was one I would add to this as well. You know, the surprise of the cost of health insurance. This is one as well, you put those together and you go from a W2 job to running your own business is like, “Oh, okay.” So again, right? You’re looking at the financials in a very different way. 

[0:26:44.5] SR: Yep, exactly. Things to keep in mind. 

[0:26:46.8] TU: Number eight, Sean, has to do with some of the mishaps and mistakes with employer-dependent care. Tell us more about this one. 

[0:26:53.3] SR: Yeah. So there is a lot of different things with dependent care benefits that you can add to dependent care FSA. So it’s a little bit different than the HSA but with that, that one really is a little bit more of the, you know, I was saying with the mindset within HSA, “Oh, if I don’t have medical expenses and I don’t use it, you know it’s not going to be worth it for me.” It turns into an investment vehicle if you don’t use it. 

Dependent care FSAs, flexible spending accounts, if you have cash in that, that is more of an “if you don’t use it, you lose it” kind of thing. So that is something where if you’re pushing cash aside, they are pre-taxed dollars. You want to make sure you are using that for dependent care expenses during the year and the other thing is that if you are getting benefits from your company, you want to make sure that you are also putting that and actually spending that on dependent care. 

When I say that, I mean a nanny or a daycare or even if it’s a family friend but somebody that you’re putting their social security down and saying, “Hey, I paid this person this much money to watch my children” otherwise, that can become a taxable event. So you want to make sure that if you have kids, you’re getting these benefits, that you are utilizing the cash during the year and not kind of ending up with excess in those accounts at the end of the year exactly. 

[0:27:58.9] TU: Number nine Sean, an oldie but a goodie, one that I think has lots of attention given the three-year loan pause and that is, not factoring in PSLF when choosing a filing status. Tell us more about this one. 

[0:28:11.3] SR: Yeah and this one, I mean, you just eluded to it. It’s been very, very challenging, especially with the client base that we work with having that ambiguity on what’s going on with the loan system and trying to give guidance on this front because it’s really tough when you’re saying, “Hey, we’re not exactly sure if they’re going to turn back on and how all that looks and when we’re going to have to recertify all these things.” 

But yeah, what we’re talking about here is that typically when folks get married, if filing joint tends to be the best approach there and we always do a comparison at least on our side to say, “Okay, you know all else equal from an objective tax standpoint, filing jointly will save you X number of dollars versus filing separately” but when you are talking about PSLF and you get into these income-based repayment plans and are looking at AGI, that can really swing very, very rapidly between what your AGI is as merely filing separate individual versus your combined AGI with your spouse when you’re filing joint. 

So this is one where it’s a classic like you just mentioned Tim Baker, the old “it depends” really depends on your individual circumstances here. You’re going to want to look and say, “Hey, what do I have on my side? What does my spouse have on their side? If you separate us, what does that look like? What is my income base repayment plan? What numbers are they looking at?” and really like we just said, “When do I have to recertify these things?”

“When am I going to have these payments?” because it’s a matter of you could save $200 by filing jointly this year but if you are saving $50 a month on your payment by filing separately, that adds up very quickly. So it’s something where there’s a lot of moving pieces but it is something where if you are not looking at those pieces, you can very, very quickly end up spending a lot more money than you think. 

[0:29:49.3] TU: Yeah and it is so important. You know, we’re talking about PSLF here but the intersection of student loans and the tax strategy is one of many examples where the financial plan and the tax plan need to be jiving, and this example specifically brings us back to the origins of FYP Tax, right? I remember Tim Baker talking about, “Hey, we would develop these beautiful student loan repayment strategies and plans.”

Then they’d be, “Hey, go talk to your accountant” and not all accountants are well-versed in student loans, which is fair, right? Based on how nuanced they are and right now, how rapidly this information is changing. So shoutout to you Sean, the YFP Tax team, you know working with a tax prepare, working with an accountant that understands student loans. Again, this is just one example but really, the intersection of the financial plan and the tax plan is so important that those are jiving in the same direction. 

[0:30:39.8] SR: Yeah and like you said, I mean, not all accountants know about it and I know enough to be dangerous with it but you have to have financial planners that know about that too. I mean, that is something where I could be working with you and say, “Hey, I think from a tax standpoint it looks like this” and you could go bring that to your planner, and if they’re not really thinking about these implications, they can really get away from you quickly, you’re right. 

[0:30:58.3] TU: Number 10 on our list of ten common mistakes, mishaps that pharmacists were making during the most recent tax season is overlooking considerations with cryptocurrency. I mean, what would be a tax episode if we didn’t talk about crypto in digital assets, so what do we see here? 

[0:31:12.4] SR: Well, this one probably is a little bit different than we’ve seen in the past with crypto. It wasn’t so much that we are seeing people with these big gains that they were necessarily expecting. In fact, if anything it might have been the opposite given what kind of happened with the market and everything last year but in that and what I would say with that is you know, if you kind of take the gain-loss implications aside, the biggest thing I would say here is just the reporting aspect of it.

So cryptocurrency again and I feel like I harp on this all the time is crypto is treated like an investment as far as the IRS is concerned. It’s like a stock, so if you go and you’re doing all these microtransactions all the time and you’re using your crypto wallet to buy coffee down the street, that is effectively saying, “Okay, I’m going to sell X number of shares at this price on this day” whatever I bought it for back in the day that same security. 

You need to look at what your basis was and do the math, so if you are doing hundreds and thousands of these transactions every year, the reporting implications are significant and that’s not something where you can say and I am not just saying this because I’m an accountant, I’m biased where you can’t just say to your accountant, “Hey, here is my list of a thousand transactions, you know, figure it out for me.” 

You need to make sure that whatever system you’re using can spit that out in a digestible manner whether it is actually getting a form from the IRS or kind of getting a summary and one thing that we have seen is in a lot of these companies and I don’t blame them necessarily but a lot of them will kind of rope you in and say, “Hey, you know it is going to cost you five dollars a month for the basic crypto wallet” and everything like that. 

Then you get to the end of the year and all the tax forms that you need will be kind of an extra charge and you are not thinking about it and folks will say, “Well, I have an accountant, they can kind of do that for me” but I mean, again, and I am not just saying that because I don’t want to do it. It really is a matter of an accountant simply can’t take thousands of transactions and stick them onto a form. 

It is not a practical thing that can happen. So you want to make sure that whatever you’re doing and again, if you want to do all those transactions, hey, power to you but keep in mind it’s like you’re selling shares. You need to make sure you are getting something out of your system that an accountant can then use and file your taxes with because it’s not like spending money. It’s like selling stocks. 

[0:33:19.6] TU: Yeah, I am hopeful Sean, this is another one you know, where you can make this mistake once and you maybe approach it differently in the future, right? I think this is an education where your explanation is spot on. If we look at this in the eyes of the IRS, which is that we’re making a transaction in terms of like we were selling stock and especially if we’re using it to purchase things on a daily basis, right? 

A store, a cup of coffee, groceries, whatever like we don’t think about our stocks like that typically and so I think that — not to say people may not transact crypto for purchases just like you would dollars out of a brokerage account but maybe not on the frequency that it’s happening if you are able to think of it in that way and understand the reporting and the tax implications there, so great explanation. 

[0:34:04.6] SR: Exactly. I think like I said, that the basis is really the biggest thing and I, you know, people, if you talk to me you’ll hear me say it all the time and you’re probably sick of it but it is really being able to trace back and say again, like it’s like a stock, right? So if I sell XYZ NFT today, I need to make sure I know what I purchase XYZ NFT for in the future, and when you are doing all these things and you’re day trading so to speak, and saying, “All right, I am going to flip this one here and I’m going to go buy crypto with this one” and kind of moving, each one of those things has to be kind of traced back to the origin. 

If you don’t have that information, you could end up paying more, honestly. You know, if you don’t have the basis information and you are just going to end up sell, reporting it on your sale price and not have the basis in there, you can end up either paying more or again, reporting incorrectly. Both of those are not what we’re hoping for in our side at least. 

[0:34:55.9] TU: So if anyone heard Sean correctly as I heard him, all of your handwritten crypto transactions, your reports, your chicken scratch, you can email those to [email protected]. He will gladly – just kidding. 

[0:35:07.8] SR: Yep, I will go through all of it in all of my free time now. Absolutely, I will break it all down for you, please. 

[0:35:14.0] TU: Awesome. So that’s our ten common mistakes that you saw pharmacists making throughout the tax season. Can I add one more? We’re going to do a bonus round here for a moment and – 

[0:35:22.5] SR: Yeah, go for it. 

[0:35:23.2] TU: I think we need to do some education around extensions, right? I think this is an area where I know firsthand the first time I extended several years ago and I have gotten used to that practice now. It can feel uncomfortable, am I doing something wrong, does that mean I’m delinquent? But as you eluded to at the beginning of the show, there are some extensions that are happening with the more complex returns. 

We want to make sure that we have the time that we need. The misperception I think, I could be wrong, that’s out there is extension means bad or extension means delinquent but that’s not the case, right? So tell us more about the use of extensions and why they may be appropriate. 

[0:36:01.9] SR: Yeah, glad you’re giving me the bonus round. I would have had this as 1-A on my list if I would have thought that you would have actually allowed me to record this podcast if I did that. I thought that I came over the top of that one, we might be deferring this recording out to a future date but no, extensions, yeah. So it is actually kind of twofold. I would say that from who I’ve talked to and this could be clients. 

I mean, even family members that I was talking to during the tax season, checking up on how things are kind of going, I would say with the negative connotation, it’s one of two camps. It’s either, “Hey, the extension means bad and delinquent” or extension means, “Hey, I’m this crazy tax guy who has offshore accounts and you know, I make five million dollars and I need to have my accountant spend the extra time to do all of this stuff.” 

Those are really the two mindsets that I got a lot of. I mean, like I said, I talk to people that I know, I’ve known for a long period of time who I consider to be financially sound individuals and they said, “Oh extensions, those must be for your big ticket clients, right?” and the answer is not really. I mean, extensions simply give us, your accountant, and you more time to get your things together to allow us to dedicate the time to find you tax savings, get your things right, and not rush them. 

I mean, I know Paul, my team who I’m sure you’ve heard talk on this pod before but he’ll always say, I mean, if you have a surgeon who needs to do a thousand surgeries in a year, would you rather him do them all in three months or her do them all in three months or have them do it throughout the course of the year, you know, with X number during each month. So you got me all fired up because you know, extensions are near and dear to me. 

But I mean, really what it comes down to is we’re trying to do a lot of different returns and a lot of people have very complex situations but we want to make sure we get it right. We talked about states and local, moving states, and making sure states don’t talk nice to each other even ones that border each other are not – don’t always agree with how things are picked up and everything, and just getting all that information together, making sure we can parse through it, maximize your tax savings and everything, extensions just give you the time to do it. 

Now, the one thing I will say is it does not extend your due date to pay. That’s the biggest thing. So what you want to do is get an estimate, and make your payment if you think you are going to owe or in April or even beforehand but after that’s done, it really is a one-click kind of thing. It’s an automatic extension, once you do it, it’s six months. You get until October and that’s that. It really is not for delinquents. 

It is not for folks who didn’t get their stuff in on time or like I said, are using offshore accounts to do X, Y, and Z. It’s just simply to give your accountant more time to get it right. 

[0:38:41.5] TU: Well, thanks for allowing me to throw some kindling on the fire, so I appreciate that. 

[0:38:45.3] SR: Thank you, I appreciate that. 

[0:38:45.8] TU: You know, I think it is a good reminder not only in the perception of it but also you know, some folks may hear this and say, “Well, you know there is an opportunity cost that if I am getting a refund” and we don’t file that for three months, four months, five months later, whatever that those dollars could have been used elsewhere. True but my counterpoint to that would have been, one, if we are planning correctly throughout the year, we shouldn’t be expecting a massive refund. 

Second to that would be is that most often, extension doesn’t mean we’re buttoned up against the October deadline. It means that maybe instead of April 18th, it’s May 1st or 15th or even the end of April or into later in May or early June, whatever. So you know, it allows kind of that stretching out of the season to make sure that we’re doing the job that needs to be done, be done well, we are optimizing the situation. 

I think that certainly for folks that have more complicated returns, I think what we’re seeing in the industry in my perception even with an accountant we used to work with before building our own practice internally was, “Hey, you’re a small business owner. Hey, you own a bunch of real estate” hey, whatever like you’re automatically extended. You know, that’s just kind of the process of what they do to make sure that they have the time to do those returns well. 

[0:39:55.5] SR: Right and like you said, the idea of year-round tax planning is you’re working with your accountant throughout the course of the year. You are getting the information, you have rentals, you’re getting them, “Hey, I sold this place in November” and you are giving them the information in November so your accountant can already have that stuff ready to go and it’s not a situation of you’re in March and you say, “Hey, I forgot” or “FYI, sold my house back in January of last year. Here’s the 5,000 documents for it. Can we get this filed next week?” 

The answer is, I mean, we probably can but you know if we are thinking about these things ahead of time, we can spend the time that we think it deserves to get everything right, and if you are doing that planning throughout the course of the year, you can get 90, 95% of a tax return effectively done through the conversations that you’re having with your account throughout the year. So yep, absolutely. 

[0:40:40.4] TU: So Sean, let’s wrap up by talking through how the year-round planning can help pharmacists not only prevent these mistakes but again, better yet optimize your tax situation. That really is the focus of what you and the team are doing through the comprehensive tax planning, what we refer to as CTP. Again, not just that transactional return month of April, got to get it done but really that year-round strategy and planning. 

So you know, what is comprehensive tax planning? What do we offer? Why is it needed and who is it for and perhaps, not for as well? 

[0:41:11.3] SR: Yeah. So comprehensive tax planning is designed to really attack everything on this list, right? So it’s where you’re doing proactive planning and thinking about your tax situation now and not at the end or not in the beginning of next year looking back on this year and again saying, “I wish I could have done this” or “How could I have done this differently?” It’s getting ahead of those things now so you don’t have to worry about that. 

So things like mid-year projections, “Hey, let me grab your paystub, let me talk about some of those side gigs you’re doing, give me an updated PNL” or even if we’re doing your books for you, I’ll pull down the updated PNL and we’ll take a look. “Hey, you know you’ve withheld this much money so far, your side gig is going to make this much money we think so far. Have you put that money aside yet? Did you make an estimated payment?” 

“I think you should make a payment of this much” checking in on those things or being able to have the conversations of you know, “Hey, I just bought a rental property. Tell me about the short-term rental loophole” or “Tell me about what it’s going to take for me to be considered a real estate professional and be able to offset some of my active income with this passive income” or “Hey, I just bought the rental and hearing all about all these tax credits.” 

“How does that work? How do those tax credits affect my personal return and then how does it affect my rental property? Are those going to be different? Can I maximize them?” These are the conversations that we’ve been having with folks over the past few months looking back on last year but proactive tax planning is you’re having these conversations now. You are having them in May, June, and July and getting ahead of these things. 

So when we talk about March and April that big push, it is really a matter of, “Hey, did we do what we say we’re going to do? Excellent, great. Okay, what are your tax bills? Zero. As expected. Awesome, file? Done. Food to go.” Just really having that phone-a-friend CPA to ask questions for, “Hey, you mentioned bunching when we looked at my return last year. You said I was close to the itemizing. How can I actually employ that now?” 

Or “Hey, this is what I’ve contributed in my 401(k) so far this year, do I have room to add more?” things like that. Just getting ahead of it now while there’s room to make changes and not looking back and saying, “Ah, I really wish I did that.” 

[0:43:19.9] TU: Great stuff. So you know it’s again, not only that finally and it’s the mid-year projection, it is having an accountant in your corner to make sure you are executing throughout the year, answering those questions as they come up. So folks can learn more at ypftax.com. You can read more about that service, you can book a free discovery call to see whether or not it’s a good fit for your personal situation. 

And again, whether you came off the season and you’re like, “Hey, I did that myself and I never want to do that again” or you were surprised by a refund or a bill or perhaps you have a situation that’s changing, right? It could be moving, a new job, dependents, acquiring real estate, or building a small business, all are these I think there’s a few examples of things that we want to be thinking about in planning throughout the year. 

So again ypftax.com, you can learn more and book a free discovery call to see whether or not that’s a good fit. Sean, thanks so much for taking the time. I appreciate you coming on the post-tax season and looking forward to having you on throughout the year. 

[0:44:15.6] SR: Yeah, thanks, Tim. Glad to be back and hopefully next time, we’ll be able to talk more about some of these backburner items. So I am looking forward to it. 

[0:44:22.1] TU: Awesome. Thanks, Sean. 

[0:44:23.1] SR: Thanks. See you. 

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:44:25.3] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists in the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% down payment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time home buyers and has no PMI on a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage. 

To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to get started with the preapproval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:45:10.4] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information on the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post, and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 293: Employee to Entrepreneur with Dr. Victoria Reinhartz


Dr. Victoria Reinhartz, CEO of Mobile Health Consultants, a business founded to solve the access to care problem by empowering interprofessional Mobile Integrated Health and Community Paramedicine teams, discusses her motivation for building Mobile Health Consultants, the target audience and how this has evolved, how she overcame the initial hurdles of starting a business, and how she balances running a business while working in an academic position.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Victoria Reinhartz is an industry leader in Emergency Medical Services, where she established the first-ever paramedic-pharmacist partnership to address chronic disease and medication challenges for underserved populations. She is the Chief Executive Officer of Mobile Health Consultants, a business founded to solve the access to care problem by empowering interprofessional Mobile Integrated Health and Community Paramedicine teams. Dr. Reinhartz is a national advocate for innovative models of care, and she serves on the Board of Directors for the National Association of Mobile Integrated Health Providers, an organization advocating for mobile interprofessional teams as the nation’s care solution. She also serves as the Mobile Integrated Health subject matter expert for the Commission on Accreditation of Medical Transport Systems.

For her leadership and exceptional care provision within Emergency Medical Services and Mobile Integrated Health, Dr. Reinhartz has been recognized with a Chief’s Commendation Award, a Congressional EMS Unit Citation Award, and national attention from the United States Public Health Service.

Her national advocacy for pharmacists as part of mobile health teams has resulted in Dr. Reinhartz being named a 2021 Top 50 Most Influential Leader in Pharmacy. She was also selected as the 2020 Next Generation Civic Leader, an honor awarded to one pharmacist nationwide whose vision for interprofessional care best spotlights the needs of underserved communities.

Episode Summary

This week on the YFP Podcast, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, talks with Dr. Victoria Reinhartz, CEO of Mobile Health Consultants, about her journey from employer to entrepreneur. During their discussion, listeners will learn about the motivation and inspiration behind the genesis of Mobile Health Consultants, the target audience and offerings, how they’ve evolved, and how Victoria conquered the initial hurdles of starting her business. Highlights from the episode include a discussion of Victoria’s start in pharmacy and how a standout moment in her career highlighted the teaching abilities that she thought she might never use as a pharmacist, how Victoria discovered her passion for community paramedicine and mobile integrated healthcare, and how she moved her idea for Mobile Health Consultants from an idea to a business. 

Tim and Victoria discuss the path from employee to entrepreneur, the value of professional coaching and small business development centers, and how as a CEO,  time distribution can fluctuate when managing competing responsibilities and onboarding teammates. Victoria shares practical tips and tricks on managing and running a business while also working in academia, how her presence in the front office and the back office have evolved as needed, and strategies she has used to grow her team.  

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. 

This week, I had the pleasure of talking with Dr. Victoria Reinhartz, CEO of Mobile Health Consultants, a business founded to solve the access to care problem by empowering interprofessional mobile integrated health and community paramedicine teams. During the show, we discuss the why behind building Mobile Health Consultants, the target audience and offering and how this has evolved over time, how Victoria was able to get over the initial hurdles of starting the business, and how she balances her time running a growing business, while also working part time in an academic position.

Now, before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 250 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized to the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. 

Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Dr. Victoria Reinhartz. 

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:22] TU: Victoria, welcome to the show.

[00:01:24] VR: Oh, thanks for having me, Tim. This has been a long time coming, so I’m glad we’re able to put it together. 

[00:01:29] TU: It has. We crossed paths this past year through the pharmacy entrepreneur circles. After I learned a little bit more about your career path and the work that you’re doing with Mobile Health Consultants, I knew we had to bring you on the show to share a little bit about your entrepreneurial journey, what was the genesis of the idea, what is the work that you’re doing. We know that we have many pharmacists in our community that are itching with an idea or a side hustle or a business that they’re working on and excited to feature other pharmacy entrepreneurs such as yourself. 

So let’s start with your background in pharmacy. What drew you into the profession? Where did you go to school, and what was the first position that you had after graduation?

[00:02:07] VR: I decided to become a pharmacist because I am kind of a nerd at heart. I really enjoy a good puzzle, so to speak. I think that every patient and the best drug therapy for them is really a puzzle for us to figure out and navigate through the various challenges related to genomics and treatment course and side effects, etc. 

So the nerd at heart in me, I love putting together puzzles, and I ended up going to pharmacy school at LECOM School of Pharmacy and graduated, I guess, now over 10 years ago, which feels crazy, right? We no longer qualify as new practitioners too. 

[00:02:45] TU: We don’t. 

[00:02:47] VR: But that’s alright. So graduated from LECOM School of Pharmacy down in Bradenton, Florida area and stayed in Florida to practice more in the community setting. But I was fortunate enough to continue to take on leadership roles and new opportunities to develop skills within myself, which really is what led to a lot of the opportunities and academia and public health and now mobile integrated health that I’m involved in.

[00:03:16] TU: So one thing, Victoria, I read that you shared on LinkedIn was a story from your last year of pharmacy school, when you did an educational training session, I would assume, during an experiential rotation for a nursing staff at a hospital. Through that experience, you realized the love that you have for teaching and problem solving. Tell us more about that experience, and how did it influence some of the career path and directions that you’ve taken today?

[00:03:44] VR: Yeah. So the story that I have on LinkedIn is a true one, and it is something that I feel still happens to this day. So I come from a super blue-collar family. We cuss a little bit in our family. I don’t know. Any of pharmacists listening, if you have families that that cuss a little bit, my family is super blue-collar, and I had been practicing like how to say glomerulus. I was so nervous about this presentation that I was going to do to an inpatient nursing staff. 

After the presentation, a preceptor pulled me aside and wanted to have a serious talk with me, and she was kind of had that serious face on, and I said, “My goodness, I’ve cursed in the middle of the presentation, right? I let a four-letter word slip somewhere on accident.” But she wanted to have a serious talk with me about my future and about whether I had considered teaching. 

Like many of the entrepreneurs that you bring on the podcast here, I thought that when I did decide not to do a residency that I had closed the door on any opportunity to teach. I was candid about that that, no, I decided not to do a residency. So I don’t think I would be allowed to teach anywhere. She really encouraged me to pursue opportunities where I got to develop that skill set of teaching. 

So when I graduated and took a role in community pharmacy, I started figuring out how do I gain teaching skills. So I started to bring in new pharmacists, to train them. I started doing teaching events with our local pharmacy school and in local college of medicine. I started taking on more initiative on the district level to figure out how can I develop the skill set that I need to become a faculty or a professor. 

Really, that professor had a huge impact on my life, that preceptor. It was secondary to her taking a minute and saying, “I think that you should develop this,” that prompted a lot of the steps that I took to continue to develop myself. So once I had kind of launched some of those things where I felt more comfortable in teaching, I had been engaging in teaching concepts for a while now, I took the opportunity to apply for a faculty position. I did accept that faculty role in 2015 with LECOM. 

But I knew that I wanted to really stay involved in clinical practice as a younger practitioner. So I started working in the public health department and doing tuberculosis management and women’s health and immunizations and things like that. I was brought in to kind of help the Department of Health figure out a solution for our access to care problem. We started brainstorming. Really, this is where I found the passion for what we call community paramedicine and mobile integrated health care. 

Like a lot of pharmacists, I think when we start to do a side hustle or when we step out to become an entrepreneur, it’s often born out of a problem that we’ve identified in practice that we feel passionate about or something that is just like lights our soul on fire, right? Like something that brings out that, “I want to do this. I’m excited to do this. This lights me up, and it keeps me up at night.” 

So this was kind of a blend of those things, as there was a big problem. As we know, in all of our communities, we have a huge number of patients or underserved populations that are not able to navigate the healthcare system, right? So they don’t have primary care. They’re uninsured or underinsured. They don’t speak English and can’t navigate even getting established with a primary care. So what this leads to is we have these patients utilizing the 911 call system and emergency rooms as their primary care, right? 

So definitely something that we all see in our communities, we know that health outcomes suffer. We know that cost, it gets expensive. So I said, “Well, why don’t we do a pilot? Why don’t we launch a pharmacist and a paramedic side by side into patient homes on a proactive basis, so not when the 911 call comes?” But paramedics know who in their community needs the support. 

[00:08:30] TU: That’s right. 

[00:08:30] VR: They know who’s calling 911 all the time. They know when Mr. Jones calls for the fourth time that they’re going to be back next week. So they know who to see. We launched a pilot with a pharmacist and a paramedic side by side together, going into the homes proactively for these patients that did not have the resources they needed, and we were able to see a huge impact in reducing the overall cost of care, but also improving the health outcomes. 

That is now how my entire consulting business is founded in the mission of empowering these paramedicine teams with the training and resources they need to improve access to care. 

[00:09:15] TU: I love that, and I want to come back and dig into more of what you’re working on with the consulting business and how it’s grown over time, the vision you have for it going forward. I want to make sure we don’t gloss over, though, some really important parts of the story you shared on that rotation and that experience, and one being great mentorship, right? 

All of us have the opportunity to interact with other pharmacy professionals. Perhaps we precept students as well, and we never know the impact that some of those words of encouragement are just seeing a skill set or a passion in someone and either affirming them in that skill set, encouraging them in that as well, the impact that that may have long term. So it’s just such a great example of that. 

Then another key piece that I really heard in that story was initiative, right? So one of the mindsets that can be out there is, “Hey, I can’t get X, Y, or Z job,” in the case here, you’re talking about a faculty position teaching, “Because I might not have,” insert whatever. Residency training, board certification, whatever credential. That’s one mindset. 

The other mindset is like, “I’m going to figure it out. I’m going to figure it out because I have a passion for teaching. I have an interest in it. Somebody else has affirmed that skill. And I’m going to kind of blaze that pathway, and I’m going to take initiative in building relationships, collaborations, and getting opportunities that I can then go and make a case for why I can provide value in this teaching role.” 

What’s really interesting, Victoria, is you are doing teaching in somewhat of a traditional format, obviously, in a faculty type of role or position. But you’re also teaching every day in the work that you’re doing through your business. I think one of things we got to be careful about is if we have a gift or a passion in a certain area, but we feel like we may not be able to do that because it’s defined a certain way by an employer or in a certain career path, it doesn’t mean we can’t do that, right?

You can teach. I can teach. I’m not in a formal academic role anymore. But I’m teaching every day on personal finance. It’s a different method of delivering that information, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be defined in the way that we may think that it has to be with a certain step or credential or degree or pathway to be able to do that. So I love that story and that journey. I think that’s so powerful. 

So when it comes to Mobile Health Consultants, so you talked a little bit about the pilot project, the initiative, really the problem and the opportunity that you saw, that you’re able to solve. Tell us more about the step from idea to actually beginning to implement that business, right? It’s one thing to identify a problem that needs to be solved or an opportunity that can be addressed, and you could have continued to do that through collaborations and partnerships with existing entities, while you’re employed in other positions. 

But it’s another thing to really take a problem and then develop a solution through creating a business. In here, we’re, obviously, talking about the consulting work that you’re doing. So tell us about the early stages and how you were able to initiate and get started with developing the business.

[00:12:11] VR: Well, I have to say that we do not do a good job in pharmacy of teaching or creating skill sets around entrepreneurship, in general, I would say. 

[00:12:22] TU: Amen. 

[00:12:25] VR: I know that you and I have gone back and forth about this issue over the last few years, and so many others that are out there creating side hustles for themselves, creating small businesses and solutions in the healthcare industry and outside of the healthcare industry also feel that way. But I was in that boat. I felt – I knew a little bit from managing a pharmacy or being involved in pharmacy management. But when you talk about entrepreneurship and establishing a small business, that’s not enough. It’s not even close to enough, right?

I did find it difficult in the beginning. I still find it difficult every day because so many pharmacists are kind of inherently intelligent, and they’re kind of good at things that they do and can figure things out really easily. Some of us, maybe you didn’t even have to study that hard for some of your undergrad courses and things. I think that that was a big challenge for me in the beginning was struggling, like struggling and navigating. How do I do this? What are the laws and regulations? How do I draft contracts? How do I set my hourly rates? All of those pieces have to be figured out? 

I had a lot of success with, first of all, finding coaches. So for anybody on this podcast, and Alex and Jackie Boyle and the team from Happy PharmD have not asked me to discuss this or mention it or anything, but I did actually go through the Happy PharmD processes for prioritizing myself and my own goals and figuring out what do I need to do to make this happen. It’s living in my heart. But like so many of us that are parents and spouses and professionals, our own personal passions tend to take a backseat to all the other things that we have to do, right?

So I did pursue some coaching with Happy PharmD to create a series of deliverables for my own goals that I knew would set me on the path to getting established. I also found the Small Business Development Center or the SBDC to be really valuable. I will tell you, I still meet with them, with my SBDC rep like, I don’t know, every other month or every few weeks, if I need to, if an issue comes up and I’m like, “I have no idea how to handle this,” or, “Can you help me find someone in the area that is a trustworthy source and this expertise area?” So you have to ask for help. For a lot of these things, you have to be willing to kind of put up the money, if that’s what it takes.

[00:15:09] TU: Yeah. I’m glad you mentioned the SBDC. I’ve talked to several pharmacy entrepreneurs or those that are building something, just in the last couple of weeks, and that was one of the resources I pointed them. Hey, have you talked to the SBDC in your area? Because it’s – Even the technical stuff, some of that might be helpful. Some of it maybe you’ve already kind of gone down that path, putting together business plans, LLC formations, things like that. 

But it’s about beginning to be a part of that network and community, where someone might say, “Hey, have you talked to so-and-so? Or what about this? What about that?” I think it’s just helpful to know you’ve got someone else in your corner to bounce ideas and questions off of as you’re developing. It’s such a great free resource that’s offered all across the country. We’ll link to that in the show notes, so folks can find SBDC office in their area as well. Then you mentioned the impact of coaching that can be there as well. 

Let me ask a follow up, though, Victoria. Even with coaching, right? Even with coaching, even with putting up the dollars, there’s still a step of getting over the fear, right? The fear of, “Man, is this going to be successful? What if I mess up a contract? Who am I to kind of put myself out there of this expert in this area across the country?” There’s all what I like to call the head trash that might get in the way of us being able to actually move something forward. Coaching can help that. Don’t get me wrong. But at the end of the day, like we’ve got to be able to be comfortable taking some risks to move something forward. 

So for your journey, was that a thing? Was that a part of the journey? Then how were you able to get past that to be able to take those first early steps of the business?

[00:16:38] VR: I think regarding the headspace, I think it’s not really a thing where you can say, “Oh, I don’t think I’m in the right mindset, or I’m being too hard on myself. So I’m going to do this tomorrow, and then that fixes the problem.” It’s an ongoing, continuous daily effort because every step of the process is going to be a learning lesson for you. So whether you’re earning your first dollar or your 100,000th dollar or your millionth dollar, each of those phases of growth creates a new element of imposter syndrome, right? Or a new element where you’re not sure am I ready for this level of the game, right? 

So it’s an ongoing thing, and I just want everyone to know that and give themselves some grace. I think that giving myself grace was a huge part of how I continued to be in the right mindset and how I approached it early on as well. You’re going to make mistakes. You’re going to have to reach out for partners or resources because you don’t know how to do something, and you have to figure it out. You just have to be comfortable saying, “I don’t know. I need support,” and give yourself the grace to be able to do that. I think that was a big one for me, right? We’re a lot of times our own harshest critic, and so getting comfortable in that. 

Then I think the other thing that I would say is, financially, it does take some preparation, potentially, depending on how comfortable you are with risk, with financial risk. I know that we, my spouse and I, had to put together a plan of what’s the dollar amount that we’re going to invest in here, and what’s the timeframe before we are going to count on a salary coming in for you that we feel comfortable with. So essentially, what’s the span of months, or even years maybe it might be for some people, until we say, “Okay, enough is enough. We did it, and we were not successful, and we need to kind of go back to a real world job, so to speak.” 

So anything that you can do by saving ahead of time, making changes in the budget, putting money aside to reduce the amount of risks that you have or increasing your comfort level with the risk that you’re taking is valuable.

[00:19:12] TU: I’m so glad you mentioned that, Victoria, because I think there’s a lot of – I use the word over glorification of this idea of like just jump and figure it out. There can be value in like making some mistakes and learning along the way. But there’s also some wisdom in having a game plan and having some backup and options, especially when we’re talking about the financial aspects of the personal side. Of course, there’s a connection to that of the business side. 

What we want to prevent is that we’re not able to pursue our business with the full attention that it needs and deserves because we’re worried about the risks on the personal financial side of things. Everyone has a different capacity and tolerance for risk, right? Everyone’s personal situation, of course, is very, very different. But doing that work, as you mentioned, to determine what is the runway that it’s going to take reminds me of – 

We had Jodi Nishida on episode 266, I’ll link to that in the show notes, who has started a keto-based practice out in Hawaii, doing some really cool things. She talked about this for her journey of having a substantial amount of savings that she ended up having to lean on early in her journey because of some challenges that happened that maybe she could have predicted, maybe she could not have. But if it weren’t for having some of those reserves, it might have crippled her moving forward with the business. Potentially, without that, she might have felt the need to jump back into the work that she was doing previously. 

So a ton of wisdom there, I think, that you’re sharing in terms of making sure that we have the financial plan and preparation, so we can approach the business with the confidence that it does deserve. So Mobile Health Consultants, I’m going to read your mission statement. Empowering mobile integrated health and community paramedicine teams in all 50 states with exceptional training and disease management expertise. So you painted the picture of kind of how it came to be and the problem you’re trying to solve. Tell us more about the target clients, the services that you offer today. Then we can also talk about kind of what you’re planning into the future.

[00:21:12] VR: Yeah. So I think one of the exciting things about being an entrepreneur is that you get to kind of follow your heart, and you get to really live the concept of success occurs when preparation meets opportunity, right? I started out just offering consulting services and some speaking services. That would be anything from coming in and doing a program evaluation, so for these programs that are already in existence, so coming in and doing a multifaceted evaluation to look for operational efficiencies, clinical appropriateness of their programs. 

That ended up expanding to helping teams launch programs. So if they are recognizing there’s a high number of 911 calls secondary to injury in their area or frequent falls, then they might want to put together a false program. But maybe they don’t want to navigate all the challenges of which home safety assessment is best, which falls assessment tool is best, how do we deal with the meds that are going to contribute to falls. So I began going in and helping teams navigate that. How do you figure that out? What’s the best practice in the industry? What should you track for monitoring your effectiveness? So that kind of expanded to helping launch new programs and establish both clinical and operational efficiencies. 

It has kind of expanded from there. So now, I work with teams that are getting set up with payers for establishing what metrics to track and how to quantify their effectiveness from a value-based care standpoint and reduce the overall cost of care for patients. That might be Medicare or Medicaid patients. We also do consulting for technology companies and healthcare service provider companies. 

So as they are expanding markets that intersect with mobilized healthcare professionals, which we saw a huge boom of that via telehealth and community-based care programs as part of the pandemic, as technologies grow to recognize the value of mobilizing teams into the communities, there is a huge need to modify their technology systems. So we also have an end user design type consulting service that we provide, where we give insight to these teams and the companies that are developing the necessary technology.

[00:23:49] TU: I love it. We’ll link to the website in the show notes, so folks can get a feel for services and offering and educational programs. I think you’ve done a great job of laying that out on the website. One of my questions for you, Victoria, as I hear you talking about the evolution of the services is that – I think any early entrepreneur kind of goes through this phase of coming up with the content and the product, doing a little bit of business development and marketing. 

I’m also, obviously, kind of a key relationship developer with partners. I’m trying to manage the finances a bit, wearing all these hats at once. So as I hear what you’re doing, and we’ll talk about how you balance this with other responsibilities that you have as well, like how would you estimate or breakdown your time in terms of where you’re spending and actually delivering the products and services, and where you’re in more of the backstage of the business, whether that’s in developing new relationships, partnerships, business development, marketing, brand awareness promotion? Like how do you distribute your time and how has that evolved over time?

[00:24:50] VR: It has evolved. It also waxes and wanes, to be honest with you. So as I pick up new projects with clients, then for a period bit of time, we’ll kind of go intensely more towards one area of the business or another. Some examples of that include the fact that if I have a really intense four-month project that involves consulting and user design and technology development and things, then we will shift, and we might do 60 to 80 percent on the consulting side, as far as hours commitment for that period. 

On the flip side, on the education platform that we do, which is providing mobile integrated health care and community paramedicine providers, so this is paramedics, but this can be social workers. This can be nurses, any healthcare profession really. As they are looking to grow their skill sets, get into this industry, look for future employment opportunities in this industry, we have a rolling educational side. 

For example, we have a community paramedicine accelerators course that launches our next cohort in January. So when January comes, for a couple months there, January through March, we’ll kind of pick up on the education piece because multiple times per week, I’ll be logging on live and doing case working and practice questions and live teachings and active discussions with paramedics across the country. So it does wax and wane, depending on the season, which is also fun because it keeps it not boring, right?

But in general, I would say about 60% or so of the business is consulting-related right now or over the last year or so. Then probably the speaking and education side is about 30% or so. The remaining 10% is really related to advocacy involvement at a high level nationally within the industry and internationally. Then also, we do have things that come up that are a little bit unexpected sometimes. So one of our core values is we get it done, plus some. We really believe in going kind of above and beyond and over delivering whenever that’s possible. So we’ve had multiple clients over the last two years that have asked for social media, graphic design, newsletter and content development. That has been an aspect of the business that I did not originally anticipate, and that I have actually contracted out and brought in new resources and things to help develop that. 

So now, that is a growing area that we’re going to see over the next few years if we keep it or not, but it’s bringing in revenue. So it’s another way that we can over deliver to clients. That’s probably, I guess – Things like that are the other 10%.

[00:27:55] TU: Yeah. You’ve said we several times now throughout the show. So one of the questions I really like to dig deep on and better understand because I think it’s such an important evolution of the business when you go from solopreneur to having other people that are contributing, and that could be W team to employees. It could be contractors. It could be fractional services in terms of kind of piecing the team together. It can look very different. But how have you constructed the team, as you talk about we, and what are those different roles where you have some help in the business?

[00:28:29] VR: We are in a period of growth, so things are about to change. Tim, I didn’t get the date that this will be released, so it might already be announced. But I’ll hold off for now. So we are in the process. When I say we, I do have a few team members that work with me consistently and have now for several months or even years. I also have interns, so I accept interns each year. 

[00:28:52] TU: Oh, cool. 

[00:28:54] VR: Yeah. They stay with me for a period of time. So at a minimum, three months, but sometimes that relationship gets continued as they find value in the work and want to take on additional projects and things. So we have interns that cycle every few months or stay with us for half a year or even longer. 

I think that we from a core team standpoint is pretty heavily administrative. It’s pretty heavily education-focused and content development-focused. The consulting side and also some of the education, I do a fair amount of contracting out. So I bring in people on a 1099 independent contractor basis, who I know will meet the criteria within the industry for projects that I am reaching for. 

If I pitch for a project on social determinants or if I pitch for a project on high-risk medications or pediatric-focused meds or whatever that looks like, then I reach out to the network of experts in that area. That’s another one of our core values is cultivating a network of experts. So now, we kind of have this diverse team of experts. I think that we’re now over 50 different consultants that we’ve brought in in the last few years in different focus areas, based on what we’re working on at the time. Their projects range anywhere from three to six weeks to a year or more.

[00:30:33] TU: Yeah. The reason I asked that question, Victoria, and I love kind of the angle you took, is I read an article recently, and I’ll link to in the show notes from Y Combinator on the different and evolving roles of a CEO as you’re growing your business. They make a case that a CEO’s first job is to build a product that users love. Their second job is to build a company to maximize the opportunity that the product has surfaced. 

I think that that requires a very different skill set over time, and one of things that we’re going through in the evolution of just YFP is early on, my role, typically, as the case for many early entrepreneurs, was all about product creation, content creation. You’re wearing all these different hats. Now that we’ve grown a team over time, it’s really about leadership and vision and that evolving role in terms of leading the company. 

As time goes on, if I’m building the thing the right way, if you’re building the thing the right way, as I know you are, like your role as a content creator ideally becomes less important as you build the team, and you’re able to kind of step into other needs and roles and responsibilities that the business has. So it’s fun to see the evolution of some of these pharmacy entrepreneurs over time, really cool stuff. 

Natural question, as a follow up to all of this is, Victoria, how in the world do you balance all this, right? So you still are working in the academic setting and a part-time role. You’ve described a very, I think, impressive and nuanced consulting business that you’ve built that has multiple different arms and is clearly on a growth path and trajectory? How do you balance the time, the schedule, the responsibilities, personal and professional? What are some of the strategies that have worked for you?

[00:32:16] VR: I’m smiling and I’m laughing because I think most of us feel like am I balancing it right really? I don’t know. I think that I am, and I would say that this ties into what the next 5 to 10 years looks like pretty heavily. I would say that right now, I am very dependent on my calendar, and I’m very dependent on all the intersections of my world being on the same calendar, right? 

My spouse can see when I’m blocked off as busy and out of town or traveling from the work side. My academic teaching schedule has to be integrated on the business aspects so that we know not to schedule there. So I mean, there’s the technology piece that I think helps immensely and just you’re free when you’re free. When you’re not, it doesn’t work, right? So staying up to date and utilizing tools to make sure that you’re not getting double-booked, that you are making time for everything appropriately is important. 

I would also say that if you’re in an early phase of content creation of project-based work, whatever that looks like for the type of business that you’re starting, you have to be intentional with scheduling or your calendar will get filled for you. So there’s times where you have to dedicate a full day a week to start maybe, maybe more, maybe less to something like content creation or writing or social media blocking and those sorts of things. There’s also time required for the follow up of that, right? So like if I record my YouTube channel, my education –

[00:34:06] TU: Which are great, by the way. Which are awesome. I love them.

[00:34:09] VR: Thank you. The Reinhartz Rundown is the title of that. We’ll put it in the notes or I can send you a link. So if we record that, it’s so multi-phase, right? You need to decide what you’re writing on. You need to narrow it down to the big points people need to know. You actually need to write it out. You need to do the digital transformation to teleprompter. You need to schedule like a day on your calendar to do the videography. You need to figure out what needs to be done from the editing and block that time. 

Then you need to figure out all of the social media aspects that go along with that, like do I hashtags? How do I caption this? Do I upload to YouTube? Like what is the drip process? All of those things, right? So it’s not enough to say, “Well, I’m going to do content creation on this day.” It’s like I need to map out a process start to finish, and I need to make sure that we have proactively allocated the time accordingly on a schedule so that that gets done without being a point of stress for me. I think that it comes with some intentionality, and it comes from recognizing that everything takes longer and is a bigger deal than it seems like it’s going to be, and making sure that you’re as proactive as possible. 

The next thing I would say is I have gotten better about delegating and automating things where I can. So now, for example, if I bring in someone, an expert to teach in the MIH Academy, before I would be like, “Here’s the thing you need to sign, and here’s your contract, and I’m going to get you set up for getting your check, and where does that need to go, and give me your headshot, and what are your objectives, and I’m going to add you into the platform,” and all of these aspects, right?

[00:36:05] TU: 20 emails later. 

[00:36:06] VR: Yes. 20 emails. So now, I outline the process start to finish. I train my assistant on how to do that. Now, I just get to do the fun part, where I say, “Tim, I’d love to have you do a lecture on this topic or financial literacy for paramedics,” which, by the way, that sounds like a great idea. I’d love to do that. 

[00:36:25] TU: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. 

[00:36:28] VR: So I’m going to connect you to Rain, and then I CC my assistant, and I say introducing so-and-so here. Please get him set up for teaching in the academy. Then that process gets executed, even though I’m not the one physically doing it.

[00:36:46] TU: Process is the key word there, right? You gave a great example with that most recent one. You also give a good example with the Reinhartz Rundown YouTube and all the steps. Often it’s normal. You’re going to be doing all those steps to begin with, right? Until you kind of get to a point where it makes sense that you can justify having somebody help out. But if you can document the systems and the steps in the process over time, that’s the point where you can begin to systematize parts of your business and have other people step in and do it as good, if not better, than you’re doing it and more consistently over time so that you can focus on other parts of the business.

That’s something that Tim Baker and my partner are always talking about is how do we build this in a way that doesn’t depend on he or I sitting in any single seat of this business. The reason that’s so important, and it’s the same for your business, is that the work you’re doing in Mobile Health Consultants and the vision of the problem you’re trying to solve is bigger than Victoria, right? You started this, but there’s a day where like we want the impact and the vision of this to live on, whether you’re doing this or you’re not doing this. So if we have systems and processes that are in place that we can bring on team members and others to help execute that vision, all of a sudden, we’re building something that can transcend our time and the work that we have in that specific role. 

So I love what you had to share there related to some of the systems in the process. This has been a ton of fun. I have really enjoyed following your journey from afar, at least on LinkedIn and, obviously, have the opportunity to talk here. I know this is going to be an inspiration to many other pharmacists that are perhaps at the beginning stages of an idea or looking to get something started on their own. If folks already are not aware of you and the work that you’re doing, where’s the best place that they can go to learn more about you and to follow your work?

[00:38:32] VR: So a couple different places. Obviously, on social media, find me on LinkedIn. Connect with me. Send me a hello message. I’d love to watch your success and your growth and serve as a source of contact, if you’re looking to either get into this industry or figure out your own journey. So please connect with me on LinkedIn, Victoria Reinhartz. 

Also, if you want the link to the Reinhartz Rundown, I’m sure we’ll put that in the show notes for you on YouTube. Mobile Health Consultants is our website, and there’ll be information there on education and the MIH Academy under the education tab. So don’t hesitate to reach out, if that’s something that you’re looking for.

[00:39:17] TU: Awesome. We’ll link to those in the show notes. Again, Victoria, thank you so much for taking time to come on the show. I appreciate it.

[00:39:22] VR: Oh, thanks so much for having me. I loved it. 

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[00:39:24] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you, again, for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week. 

[END]

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YFP 292: How & Why One Pharmacist Started a Functional Medicine Organization for Pharmacists


This week, Dr. Lauren Castle, founder of Functional Medicine Pharmacists Alliance, discusses how her experiences working with Walmart in influencer marketing and personal branding helped prepare her for growing her business,  why she started FMPhA to integrate pharmacists into functional medicine, and her transition from employee to entrepreneur.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Lauren Castle is the founder and CEO of the Functional Medicine Pharmacists Alliance (FMPhA.org), the first association representing pharmacists in functional medicine. FMPhA supports members practicing functional medicine across all pharmacy settings by uniting leaders in the field to provide continuing education, training, networking, and advocacy.

Lauren also serves as a functional medicine consultant pharmacist with the PharmToTable Team and maintains a part time practice as a retail pharmacist. She received her Doctor of Pharmacy from Ohio Northern University in 2013 and her Master of Science in human nutrition and functional medicine from the University of Western States in 2018. Lauren has also studied with the Institute for Functional Medicine and Functional Medicine University and became an Applied Functional Medicine Certified (AFMC) practitioner through the School of Applied Functional Medicine in 2022.

To download a free Functional Medicine Pharmacist Checklist, visit FMPhA.org/newsletter.

Episode Summary

This week on the YFP Podcast, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, welcomes Dr. Lauren Castle, founder of the Functional Medicine Pharmacists Alliance, to the show. Tim and Lauren discuss how her experiences working with Walmart helped to prepare her to create her business, why she started the Functional Medicine Pharmacists Alliance (FMPhA), and her transition from employee to entrepreneur. Lauren shares what led her to pharmacy and how an internship with Walmart unexpectedly changed her life plans in the best way. After graduating from pharmacy school, Lauren had always planned to become a pharmacy owner. She planned to use her internship with Walmart to see something the opposite of her chosen path. While working with Walmart, Lauren quickly learned that even in a huge company, she could stand out and make a difference. After working on special projects for the home office, Lauren realized she didn’t want to put her dream in the hands of something else. Recognizing the value of her ideas, she started the Functional Medicine Pharmacists Alliance. 

She explains how social media and networking benefitted her career and how consistently sharing her story and message of food as medicine helped to catapult her to a market director position. Listeners will hear about Lauren’s personal experience and how it led her to pursue her passion for functional medicine, ultimately forming FMPhA. She shares what FMPhA looks like today, the importance of advocacy for the profession of pharmacy in the space, and how pharmacists can differentiate themselves in functional medicine. 

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. 

This week, I welcome the Founder of the Functional Medicine Pharmacists Alliance, Dr. Lauren Castle. During the show, we discuss how her experiences working with Walmart in influencer marketing personal branding helped prepare her for growing her business, why she started the FMPhA to integrate pharmacists into functional medicine and functional medicine in the pharmacy, and how she planned for the transition over five years from employee to entrepreneur. 

Now, before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 280 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call by visiting yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. 

Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Dr. Lauren Castle. 

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:17] TU: Lauren, welcome to the show.

[00:01:18] LC: Thank you so much for having me, Tim.

[00:01:20] TU: So this episode has been a long time in the making. We’ve crossed paths for many years now through Ohio Pharmacy Association and other circles. We share our alma mater, Ohio Northern, so go Polar Bears. 

[00:01:34] LC: Yep. 

[00:01:34] TU: So let’s start there with your career path into pharmacy, what led you into the profession, and how you ultimately landed the work that you’ve been doing with Walmart really for over the last 10 years now.

[00:01:46] LC: Sure. So like many people, I decided I wanted to go to pharmacy school. When I was in high school, I actually had started working in an independent pharmacy in Monroe, Michigan, and absolutely loved it. So I thought for sure I was going to go to pharmacy school and become a pharmacy owner whenever I graduated. 

I ultimately ended up meeting my husband while I was in school, and that is what led me to pursue a different internship. I thought to myself what better time to just get some totally different experience. I’ve already got my path laid out. I know what I want to do. But just in case, I’ll check out the exact opposite of an independent pharmacy, right? Like the largest company in the world. 

So I joined Walmart. That summer, I just completely fell in love with it. It still felt like I owned my own pharmacy in a sense. But yet I had all of these resources and all of this capacity to literally influence millions of people. I kind of figured that out because I shared a little story on their sort of social media Internet company website about Walmart’s 50th anniversary and my experience as an intern. I didn’t really think anyone would read it or care. But that story actually got picked up, and it was published in our home office newsletters. 

So like our president of health and wellness at the time had read it and sent it down to my supervisors, and that was sort of the aha moment for me that I realized I’m just one person in a company of over two million employees worldwide, and I actually can make a difference. So that was sort of the theme of these last 12 years that I’ve really been able to continue on with.

[00:03:25] TU: I love that, starting with the concept of let me use the internship. For some, it might be experiential rotations as an opportunity to see something different. I often share with students, if I had to go back and do anything different pharmacy school, it would be to really reevaluate those precious summer internships and then those 9 or 10 months of experiential rotations because the safe plays are always going to be there, right? What a unique opportunity, where you have a month or a summer that you can see something that’s completely different and, obviously, building relationships and having different experiences. Those more traditional opportunities will be there but such unique time to see those things, and so cool to hear you take advantage of those. 

Let’s talk about some of those experiences with Walmart a little bit more because – No disrespect in any way to pharmacists that are out there working the bench day in and day out. But that was not your gig with Walmart. Certainly, you’ve done that. But as you look at your experiences with Walmart, it’s very, I would say, nontraditional in those experiences with Walmart, in terms of – You alluded to some of that with some of the posts that you were sharing early on that got picked up. Nationally, you’ve had some experiences working with them, more in that influencer marketing, personal branding, wellness side of things. 

Tell us about those experiences because I suspect, as we’ll talk about more of the work that you’re doing with the Functional Medicine Pharmacists Alliance here in a little bit, those experiences were really critical to the work that you’re doing now as well. 

[00:04:59] LC: They certainly are. I mentioned, even from the very beginning, I started sharing my story in the company. I think no matter what company you’re working for, there’s actually a book I’ve recently read that talks about how purpose is more than a side hustle, and it’s actually the way you show up for other people every day. So it doesn’t matter what type of role you’re in. If you’re in a nine-to-five job, if you’re working as an entrepreneur, you’re living your purpose every day, and you can tell your story in whatever role that you’re in. 

For me, that really looked like sharing what I was doing on social media and sharing little bits of how I work as a pharmacist for the company. Ultimately, that is what led to some additional opportunities that I had to get promoted. So networking, of course, is huge. A lot of times, people will say it’s not what you do, but it’s more around like who you know. So for me, I was always trying to reach out and connect with people on LinkedIn. So every market director, when I was an intern, I was connected with them. They knew who I was. They knew my name. They knew my face. I would show up, like you mentioned, Ohio Pharmacists Association meetings. Make sure that I was involved in professional activities as a pharmacist. 

That networking is really what led me to get promoted to a pharmacy manager to a clinical pharmacist manager whenever we actually moved to Michigan and ultimately to a market director. So five years after graduation, I became a market health and wellness director, which was sort of my big goal as an intern once I joined Walmart. That role was incredible, and I learned so much, just from managing teams, managing people, really managing a business, right? Yet again, continuing to share my story on social media. 

At the time, I had also started getting into functional medicine. So now, this was a new aspect of the story I was telling and also was picked up and seen by people at our home office. That was the moment that really kind of catapulted things to what my real dream was, right? I’d already met this milestone from just a, “Oh, I got promoted. I’m a market director. This is awesome,” to, “Well. Now, I want to go work at our home office. I want to go to Arkansas. I want to go and really make a difference for the company.”

I didn’t know what that was going to look like. But as I was talking about functional medicine and how I really felt like it aligned with some of the things Walmart does around helping people save money and live better, and you really do have everything that you need to live a healthy life at an affordable price in the stores. So that was the theme. That was the message I was sharing. I, ultimately, ended up getting to meet our president of health and wellness, and this was back in 2019. He was a fellow Ohioan, so he came out and visited. We sat down and, as we were eating lunch, started talking about this concept of food as medicine.

They were like, “This is awesome. We think this is a great idea. We would love for you to come out and share more and see how this would integrate with Walmart Health,” which at the time, they were just starting to build those as primary care centers. So I didn’t really think anything of it. I was like, “Okay, yeah. Cool. That’d be awesome. Would love to come out.” A couple weeks later, I got a phone call, and they’re like, “Hey, we need you to come out like this week to meet Steuart Walton of the Walton family.”

[00:08:46] TU: The Waltons. Yep. Yeah. 

[00:08:47] LC: Like that’s one of those calls that you never expect to get in your life. But it was my dream, right? Like as I was sitting here, trying to figure out like how am I going to get to home office, what am I going to do, you just keep taking the next step, right? You just keep living your purpose. Ultimately, that’s going to all come together. 

So I spent three months out there on a special project, basically looking at how we would integrate nutrition in with the services that we have in health and wellness. As we were getting ready to pick out our first store, it was kind of the end of the year. There was some leadership changes. They sort of paused all the projects and said, “We’re going to hold off for a little bit.” 

2020 hits and, of course, the whole world shuts down, and it’s COVID. So silver lining, of course, is that we would have never been able to do a lot of the things we wanted to do anyways. That also was the moment for me that I realized this has been an amazing journey with Walmart. But I also realized that I can’t put my dreams in someone else’s hand. So that was the moment that I came home, and I actually started my LLC for the Functional Medicine Pharmacists Alliance too. 

[00:10:07] TU: I love that. So much to unpack there. But I think one of the things you just shared, which we’ll come back and talk about your journey, really growing the Functional Medicine Alliance, spending more and more time on that, is not necessary putting your own dream in someone else’s hands. But also recognizing that the experiences that you do have working for someone else can be so valuable and catapulting what you’re working on. Also, just the experiences, the network, all of what you shared. 

But when I hear your success in, ultimately, getting to that point where you’re going to meet someone from the Walton’s family, what comes to mind is that the reason that moment happened is because you, for years, were consistently showing up and providing value. Then the compound effect of that just worked its magic, as it always does, if you’re consistently showing up providing value. That’s value in person and in the work that you’re doing every day. That’s value in developing your personal brand and helping other people, staying connected and in-person meetings, virtual meetings on LinkedIn and other things. 

I think we sometimes lose sight of that when we see someone who has gotten to the point of launching a business, or they’ve grown a following of whatever number of followers on LinkedIn, and they’ve got a great personal brand. It’s been a decade in the making, right? It started with that leap of faith, if you will, that you took as an intern to say, “Hey, I’m going to post this out there. Maybe somebody thinks this is interesting. Maybe it’s not.” But I know the value in showing, sharing my story. I know the value of showing up every day and providing value. It might be that in any one day, maybe there’s not an obvious like ROI on that. But over time, consistently, that really can take off. 

So let’s talk 2017, if I’m correct. 2017, you actually started the Functional Medicine Pharmacists Alliance, and we’ll link to that in the show notes, FMPhA.org. I’m curious, before we get into kind of why you decided to go that pathway with starting the alliance to really have the impact in functional medicine, where does your personal interest in functional medicine and this concept of food is medicine, where does that come from?

[00:12:13] LC: Absolutely. So as I mentioned, I had become a clinical pharmacy manager when we lived in Michigan, and Michigan is where we discovered functional medicine. So my husband and I, he also was working in a pretty high-level job for a big company and was having a ton of health issues, super stressed, had struggled with losing weight, couldn’t sleep, had got issues, just felt terrible all the time. 

As a pharmacist, I thought I was doing everything right to help him try to feel better. But at the end of the day, I kind of said, “I think if you go to the doctor, they’re just going to hand you a bunch of pills, and it’s not going to help you all that much. It’s just going to cover up these side effects.” I don’t know what is wrong. It seems like we’re doing everything right, and nothing seems to be working. 

We got a flyer on our doorstep for a integrative wellness center. It basically listed all these side effects and symptoms. I just handed it to Seth, and I said, “Babe, this is you on paper. You have all of these problems. So whatever these people do, I think should go check out this seminar that they’re doing this weekend and see what this functional medicine stuff is all about.” So he went to the seminar, ended up signing up for this program. We paid $5,000 out of pocket to work with these people for, basically, 12 weeks. It sort of included everything. So it had all of these different labs that we didn’t learn about in pharmacy school, supplements that I had never heard of, and this elimination diet, where we, basically, were going to cut out most of the foods that we were still eating that we thought were healthy like whole wheat bread and skim milk and, basically, eat this sort of paleo style of a diet. 

Within just a few weeks, he was feeling so much better. Pretty much all the symptoms dropped off, and he lost 20 pounds. It was just like incredible. So as I continued reading more about functional medicine, the Cleveland Clinic in Ohio was actually starting a center for functional medicine that same year. So to me, that was sort of the moment that I was like, “All right, I think there’s something to this functional medicine stuff, and Cleveland clinic’s doing it. So it’s got to be pretty reputable.” 

I decided at that point, I really think this is the future for healthcare and for pharmacy. But I knew also at the time, I was looking into other degree programs, so I did not do a residency after pharmacy school. At that point, I was a clinical pharmacist, but I was looking to get promoted to market director. So I was looking at MBA programs, things like that. I decided, well, maybe I’ll look into programs for this functional medicine stuff. 

There was one master’s program in the US that was in conjunction with the Institute for Functional Medicine, and that, of course, is also who Cleveland Clinic was working with. So I figured, all right, this sounds like it’s pretty reputable, right? So I ended up enrolling in that master’s program and was still working as a clinical pharmacist. We had just gotten engaged. We were planning a wedding, really burning the candle at both ends. But I was loving it. I just – Everything made so much sense. 

As I was starting to learn all of this new functional medicine knowledge, I started talking to other pharmacists about it. So Melody Hartzler, who you’ve interviewed on the show before, her and I reconnected. She had gotten into this through her own health journeys. Other people that I had gone to school with or had met through pharmacy conferences were getting into this space. I started to realize that we all need to come together. Like we need to form a little community and stay in touch and figure out what this is going to look like for the profession. 

That was sort of where the Facebook came from, was just this idea of like, “Let’s get together. Let’s kind of bring everyone in this space and start collaborating.” I was also starting to teach other pharmacists. So Ohio Pharmacists Association had me do a CE presentation in 2017, and that was sort of the start of it. So we introduced the Facebook group. We did the CE, recorded it. That same year, I also got invited to speak at the Michigan Pharmacists Association. In those, basically, four months, I decided to actually create a website and post my story on there and not have it just be a Facebook group. But actually set up FMPhA.org, which I always give credit to Alex Barker, another friend of the YFP team because he’s the one who told me like, “Why don’t you just make an organization?” I’m like, “I can’t make a pharmacy organization.”

[00:17:18] TU: I remember I was talking about that back in 2017. I just loved that concept. It was such a nontraditional way to think about how to influence this space and really how to try to meet many people, instead of – I mean, sure, you can meet with people one on one and have a great impact. But how can you be an aggregate of the pharmacists that are practicing functional medicine and bring them together? So, yeah, I love that idea. That’s a great one. 

Just so I’m understanding, the actual formation of FMPhA as a business, you mentioned just a few moments ago forming the LLC. When you started the Facebook group, when you’re providing CE, when you actually built the website, at that point, you hadn’t yet formed the business. Is that correct?

[00:18:00] LC: Nope, no business whatsoever, and I never set out to make any money off of this. It was truly just a – I believe in this so much, and I want to bring other pharmacists into it, that I’m just going to start sharing these resources that I’m learning and trying to connect with more people and bring us all together. 

So, yeah, it wasn’t until the Facebook group continued to grow, and we went from 30 people at the very beginning to 500 people. So then 2018, the next year, I was at Institute for Functional Medicine conference and was talking to their leadership. I’m like, “Oh, we have 500 pharmacists and a Facebook group. They want to do functional medicine. How do we actually get them more involved in the care team?” 

Because at the time, IFM really didn’t have any resources that were geared towards pharmacist. It was mostly towards physicians, and so they didn’t even know what to do with us, right? Just like a lot of the medical profession, it’s sort of like the pharmacist’s role is very misunderstood and kind of left behind or left out of the picture. So that was sort of the next step that I was like, “Okay. Well, how can we start to work with other organizations?” 

Then in 2019 is when I ended up going out to do the special project. Kind of coming back from there, I had also spoken with another pharmacist, Jerrica Dodd, and she was the one who then gave me the push of like, “Lauren, you got to monetize this thing. You have got to start actually setting up a business and really taking this seriously because you’re sitting on a goldmine in a sense because people are hungry for this. They want this.” Yeah, that was – We were at a functional medicine symposium, and I had someone that asked me, “How do I become a member? How do I join? How do I sign up today?” I was like –

[00:19:56] TU: Let me figure that out. 

[00:19:57] LC: I will get back to you.

[00:19:59] TU: But, Lauren, what I really liked about this, I don’t want to lose that there was at least two years until that point of, okay, how can I monetize this? We’re providing value. It’s growing, which there should be. Jerrica is correct. As you’re building something that’s providing value to others, like there’s a fair price that can and should – We charge for that. But you focus on providing value first. 

Pat Flynn talks about that, one of my favorite podcasts and a blog that really influenced my journey early on in the Smart Passive Income Podcast. He talks about the value of really focusing on providing resources, providing value, building your community, really making the deposits in the bank, and doing that authentically. The business will grow from there over time. I think your story is such a cool example of that. 

Before we talk more about the actual transition and how and when you made that transition to spend more of your time working on the business and less of the time on the W-2 side of things, tell us more about what does FMPhA look like today, in terms of you went through this journey of, okay, we need to monetize this. Is it a membership model? Is it they’re paying for certain resources and being a part of the community? What does it look like in terms of the business today?

[00:21:17] LC: Absolutely. So today, it is a membership, much like many pharmacy organizations that you can join. We’re bringing together pharmacist and community through the Facebook still, of course, which is a free resource. But really, the advocacy piece is sort of what’s most important to me. We partner with a few different organizations in functional medicine, one being the Institute for Functional Medicine. So when you join, you have the option to also add on IFM membership at basically a discounted rate. We also were able to work with them to get a 20% discount on their trainings, which one of the top questions that we get asked is, “Okay, I’m interested in functional medicine. Where do I get training? Do I need to get certified?” So the answer is you don’t have to get certified. But certainly, just like with any type of training, having that additional credential is going to speak for itself, in terms of working with other providers. 

We really were wanting to get more pharmacists into that organization. So part of that was how can we make it more affordable because, again, it’s not cheap. A lot of these certifications are upwards of 10 or even $20,000. So that was kind of our first big step. We also worked with them to actually get the word pharmacist listed as a provider type, right? So it’s the little things to some of these organizations that mean a lot to us as pharmacists and to the profession. 

So those are some of the things we do. We also work with A4M, which is the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine. We also have discounted rates on their training programs as well. So those are sort of the big two training programs that we’ve partnered with. Then we’re actually working on launching our very first course for members, so Functional Medicine Pharmacists boot camp will be launching in January, as of the time of this recording. That’s really the culmination of all of these seven-plus years of working in functional medicine, trying to figure out how do we actually do this as pharmacists, and answering a lot of those frequently asked questions around training and how to implement it and what types of jobs you might be able to find or create for yourself, and really just putting all of those pieces together.

The last couple of services that we also offer, of course, is with CE. We have a few different partners there. At the time, again, when I got into this, there was no CE for pharmacists in functional medicine. Now, we’ve got a couple of different partners that we work with that are offering functional medicine CE. So that’s another area. Then, of course, we have our annual meet up in conjunction with functionalmedicinece.com. We have our meet up there every year, usually in the fall. So in-person events, it’s been really great to get back together with people and actually, again, bring that networking together because you never know who you’re going to meet and where they’re at in their journey and how they might be able to help you as well.

[00:24:23] TU: Yeah. One of the things I’m curious to get your opinion on is from an outsider’s perspective, kind of following the functional medicine movement, seeing more pharmacists, clinicians start to dabble in this space, I think, for really good reasons, I’m not seeing a lot of differentiation. As I’ve talked to a couple of people that are starting up a business of which I know very little about functional medicine, but I’m looking at it from a business perspective, what really is glaring to me at first is like why you, why your services. There’s not like a compelling differentiation that I’m seeing there. 

So as someone who, I think, spent a lot of time building a strong personal brand, doing influencer marketing, really building a niche of what you’re doing out there, and understands the importance of that differentiation, what advice would you have someone for – That’s listening and say, “Hey, I’m really interested in functional medicine, about how they might differentiate themselves in this space and what they’re offering.”

[00:25:19] LC: Yeah. So I think you bring up a good point, and that was sort of another reason that I finally kind of pulled everything together into this boot camp course is that I had a lot of pharmacists that were coming and saying, “I’m studying functional medicine, and I want to figure out how to use it.” I think everyone, somehow or another, because, of course, a lot of this really picked up steam during COVID in 2020, and virtual or telehealth became kind of the norm for a little while, and so a lot of people assumed that like, “Oh, if I’m a pharmacist, I can quit my pharmacist job and launch a virtual functional medicine practice and become a millionaire.”

[00:25:59] TU: Patients will be flooding and scheduling left and right. 

[00:26:01] LC: Yes. They – Yeah, exactly. For some people, they can do that. For a lot of people, it’s not that simple. So what I really try to work with pharmacists to understand is that there’s no one way to practice functional medicine. It’s just a lens through which you are going to use your pharmacist license. So more often than not, if you want to do a virtual practice, yes, we can help connect you with the resources that you need to set that up. But is that really the way that you want to serve your patients? 

If you’re someone who isn’t necessarily a big fan of social media and putting your face out there and having to tell your story over and over and over every single day to try and attract patients in a virtual practice, what about considering working with a physician in your local practice, right? What about a chiropractor? What about an independent pharmacy? Do you have a compounding pharmacy somewhere? There’s all of these other pharmacy settings where functional medicine can be an additional service that you bring to the table to provide to reach those patients that really need it the most, right? So it’s really about figuring out your skill sets and what areas of pharmacy you are most passionate about and then thinking about how you can apply a functional medicine approach to whatever that is. 

For a lot of people, it might be figuring out how to set up a collaborative practice agreement, so you can practice at the top of your license. Or it might be walking into an independent pharmacy and seeing if you can get a job as a pharmacist there, leading their health and wellness programs. So lots of different options to think about before you just kind of go and quit the day job and start trying to launch a virtual practice.

[00:28:03] TU: Let’s shift gears here and talk about the transition that you’ve made from employee to entrepreneur, at least where you’re spending more the majority of your time now focused on Functional Medicine Pharmacists Alliance. You had this to, say, a few months ago on LinkedIn. You said, “It took five years to get here. But it feels amazing to finally have the time and space to pursue this fully.” 

It hit me right after I got back from the DiversifyRx hat I had used up all my PTO in the nine-to-five job in order to attend pharmacy conferences this year. So I did the math. I realized I could work part time for the same salary and then turned in my resignation. Tell us more about what led you. I mean, I’m sure you’ve thought about this moment several times. But what was it specifically that you said, “Hey, this is the moment. I’m ready.”?

[00:28:48] LC: Yeah. So to provide a little more background, at the time, earlier this summer, I was working for a company called Brand Networks. So I mentioned before, I sort of had been burning the candle at both ends for a number of years, working as a market health and wellness director. Of course, COVID happened. I was also a caregiver for my mom who, ultimately, passed away last year. 

After that moment, I actually had taken a 12-week leave from my market director job that my boss had suggested to me like, “Hey, Lauren. You have gone through a lot. And if you need to take some time away, you can do that.” So just one more thing to consider about before you leave your job, have you used all of the resources available for your own health and your mental health? So for me, I took those 12 weeks. I went through intensive outpatient therapy. I really got to kind of heal from a lot of that trauma and also found this new path in social media marketing with this company. So I was able to work remotely from home for a year. Still working as just a part-time peer and pharmacist, a couple shifts a month. 

Then kind of the nine-to-five was in the social media marketing, which yet, again, was sort of another very intentional choice of I know that I want to grow FMPhA, which now is a business, and I still have a lot to learn about running a company online. So what a great opportunity to be able to actually work kind of on the inside of running marketing for the world’s largest company? I probably can learn a few things, so great experience, amazing team, super fun role. 

But, yes, I was having to take time off in order to actually go to pharmacy conferences, which were finally kind of starting back up again in 2021. So I was doing a lot of traveling. Even though I was in a remote role, I still didn’t really have flexible hours. Like I still had to be available from nine to five. So as I was taking all of this time off, it hit me because we were planning for our pharmacy symposium in the fall, and I wasn’t going to have the PTO to take to go to my own conference. 

[00:31:13] TU: Your own event. 

[00:31:14] LC: I was like, “Oh, wow. Okay.” So that was the moment that, like I said, I really just sat down and did the math. It was like, “I think it’s time. I think it’s time.” So my market director had actually reached back out to me, the one who backfilled my position that I had trained and said, “Hey, I’ve got a store open. If you want to come back, whatever hours you want to work, we can make it work.” So I was like, “Yeah. I think I’m going to be a 48-hour pharmacist.” It was another one of those moments where it’s like, if you would have told intern Walmart pharmacy Lauren that she was going to only work 24 hours a week as a pharmacist one day, I would have thought that like something horrible happened, and I was like disabled. Like, “Oh, my gosh. Why can I only work 24 hours a week as a pharmacist? That’s terrible.” 

But it took a lot of like unlearning to finally see that like, “Oh, yeah. There’s more to life than working 40 hours a week for your company. You can actually have your own life and work part time, still have a good salary and full-time benefits, and do all these other things that you’re passionate about.”

[00:32:29] TU: I love the story. As you’re still working part time, obviously able to focus more full time on the business, but you’re able to do that. Why? Well, because you left with really good relationships. Well, you haven’t left technically, but you had really good relationships. Somebody who’s coming forward, obviously, they saw your wellbeing as a priority. Let’s take some time off, refocus. We value you as an individual, also as an employee. Then, hey, what hours do you want? It’s like, “What? Come again.” Like, “So I can build this business and focus on that, but still be able to maintain some type of a financial base.”

I want to emphasize that because if we hit rewind here for a moment, 2017, FMPhA became a thing, right? Here we are in 2022, five years later, this is much more of an off-ramp than it is diving into the deep end. I want to say that emphatically because I have the opportunity to talk with a lot of pharmacists throughout the year that are thinking about different business ideas. I can tell they feel this internal restlessness and pressure, much of which, I think, is externally influenced. They see what other people are doing like Lauren, like other entrepreneurs we featured on the podcast. But they don’t know the whole backstory of this was years in the making, and it’s still in the making before there’s potentially a full-time transition to the business. 

I share a similar story of working in an academic role for about six, seven years, while I was starting the business until I made that transition full time. I think that’s more of the norm than it is not, and I think there’s really good financial reasons to do that. I think there’s really good other reasons. You mentioned that as you’re working for that new firm here in the last year and a half, two years that, wow, I can get some really good experiences with one of the biggest companies in the world that, obviously, you’re able to now draw from the value of those experiences and what you’re building. 

So I think there’s so much to take away there as, again, thinking about this more of a transition, more as an off-ramp, slow and steady, being patient, which is hard, and less about jumping into the deep end. So –

[00:34:38] LC: One thing to add there too from a financial standpoint is that was something that we really thought about throughout this journey, right? Because for me, I’m still planning ahead. One of the beautiful benefits of being a market health wellness director is, of course, the golden handcuffs, the stock options, those types of things. So for me, I knew it was like, “Okay, I need to stay with Walmart to really maximize the value of what they provided me as part of my compensation and really think outside the box of, oh, yeah, I don’t have to completely leave the company. I can still work part time and run everything through our ethics department and make sure that like, yes, you can be a pharmacist, and you can work as a contractor employee for Walmart, doing social media.” Like look for the and opportunities there because those are things that are going to, from a financial standpoint, really make more of the work I want to do a possibility. 

So we’re kind of planning that out, as we think ahead of like, yeah, I still have another year that I definitely need to stay employed with Walmart. So what can I do to make the most of that time before I even consider leaving in the future? Do I even want to? Do I still want to drop back down from 48 hours to being truly part time hourly again? Then you start thinking about some of the bigger questions, right? Or like, “Oh, yeah. Well, what are we going to do for insurance and some of those things?” 

[00:36:14] TU: Retirement. Yeah, exactly. 

[00:36:15] LC: All the things you have to think about in terms of starting a business or leaving a job, especially when for us, my spouse actually had left his job as well, right? So we mentioned that that was a big root cause of his health issues. The case for leaving the job, sometimes that is the solution. But sometimes, it’s not. So really think about that, evaluate it, and think about all the options. So for us, it looked like one of us leaving the job, one of us transitioning the job. 

[00:36:51] TU: This is so great. Look for the and opportunities. I think there’s – When people are building something, there’s a lot of internal pressure, where you kind of fall into this trap, I think. I know I felt this for a period of time of like there’s option A, or there’s option B. Either I’m not working on the business, or I’m going full time in the business. But there’s always more options. There’s always more options. I think it’s having the creativity to see what those may be as well. 

I want to wrap up by asking you two questions that I’m adopting and stealing from Tim Ferriss who ask great questions on his podcast. The first question is if you could have a gigantic billboard anywhere with anything on it, metaphorically speaking, getting a message out to all 300,000-plus pharmacists in the US, what would that billboard say, and why would it say that?

[00:37:36] LC: So I think for me, what I always like to tell pharmacists that are kind of interested in this functional medicine or maybe they’re starting to hear about it is, yes, there is a better way than a pill for every ill. That is the sort of mindset that we’re all sort of stuck in whenever we’re still in a traditional pharmacist role of whether it’s dispensing in retail or being a clinical pharmacist and working on making sure everyone’s meeting the guidelines to the tee. It’s always about like adding another pill and making sure that they’re on all the right medications. 

But I think through COVID, we’ve, obviously, seen that lifestyle plays such a big role in our patient’s health. So how can you start to think about ways to incorporate lifestyle, medicine, functional medicine into your patient’s health? Because, ultimately, I think that’s where the future of healthcare really lies, and a lot of times you kind of have to start with yourself too. Start to evaluate, where you can make some of these changes in your own health and your family’s health and talking to your friends about it. Then just continue growing from there and building out sort of that muscle of starting to have those conversations.

[00:38:54] TU: Yeah. I think what intrigues me so much about functional medicine is like it so much of the focus on let’s actually get to the root cause, and that takes time. I think if we take a step back and take off our bias of being trained in a doctorate program and being trained as a healthcare practitioner, we live in a system that is a for-profit healthcare system that incentivizes efficiency. It does not incentivize taking more time and not dispensing products that aren’t going to have revenue associated, right? 

So I think we just have to ask ourselves always. We should be asking ourselves, kind of look at the status quo and what we’re doing. Why are we doing it, and is it the best option that’s out there and potentially available? It’s the same thing. You talked about a little bit your personal journey and some time off and some of what I heard there, like the inner work that was being done. That takes time, a lot of time. It’s easier to prescribe a medication and to see a physician for 30 minutes. But like that work is so important, obviously, for long-term benefits, for quality of life, for optimizing who you are individually as well. So it’s just such a good reminder, I think, of like what are the incentives that are out there, and are they appropriately aligned for what we’re looking at. 

My second question here for you is what is one of the best or most worthwhile investments that you have ever made? It could be an investment of money. It could be investment of time, energy, in a training resource. What would you say that is?

[00:40:19] LC: Yeah. I think that overall, FMPhA has been one big investment. Rather than it just being like a business, it’s been this journey, this kind of life work of, yes, investing in the beginning money to go back to school and get a master’s degree and not take out more loans to do it, going and doing more training with different functional medicine schools for the sake of, hey, I want to be able to actually tell people my honest opinion of these programs. So I’m going to spend my own money to test them out, again, before I even have a full-on business or am being compensated to do these things. I think about the time. 

My husband and I, we were just celebrating Thanksgiving together. Of course, I was also doing a Black Friday promotion. So he made a comment of, “Hey, all of your discretionary time seems to go into FMPhA, and you’re spending a lot of time on this.” I was like, “Well, yeah, I am. But at the end of that Black Friday promotion, it sort of all paid off, right?” Because then he was able to see, “Oh, yeah. This is what you’ve been building for five years, right?”

Now, kind of entering this next phase for the organization of actually having courses and potentially a podcast next year and, again, putting out more of this value for other people. It has been this labor of love. At the same time, it’s fulfilling, right? It’s what I love to do, and I feel like this is what I’m here to do. So I think FMPhA has sort of been like one big investment with money, but time, and of course energy. So now, it’s like, “All right, how do we find the balance of being a functional medicine pharmacist, CEO, and founder, but then also still having time for life?” 

I think that’s probably what most people are starting to sort of see functional medicine or any type of consulting role as a pharmacist is sort of this opportunity to reevaluate what’s most important to you. Again, from like a purpose standpoint, this is the book that Ivan was reading. In it, it just sums it up so perfectly, that perfect purpose is more than a side hustle. It’s not something you turn on or off, depending on the situation or the conversation you find yourself in. Purpose is the unique way you show up every moment of every day to make life better for others. You have a purpose, and you can live it out on a full-time basis. 

[00:43:04] TU: I love that. 

[00:43:03] LC: So I just feel like when you think about investing, everyone’s going to be investing their time, their money, their energy into something. You get to choose what that’s going to look like.

[00:43:17] TU: I love that. We’ll link for those that aren’t watching the video. Lauren just shared Purpose Is More Than a Side Hustle. It was the book. We’ll link to that in the show notes, if folks want to check that out. Lauren, this has been fantastic. I knew it would be. So glad to have you on the show. As I mentioned at the beginning, it’s been a long time in the making. Where is the best place that individuals can go to learn more about FMPhA, as well as to follow your journey?

[00:43:39] LC: So FMPhA.org is our main website. You can also find me on drlaurencastle.com. I’m @drlaurencastle on every single social media platform, so happy to connect with everyone there. 

[00:43:54] TU: Awesome. We’ll link to those in the show notes. Thanks so much for coming on the show.

[00:43:57] LC: Thanks for having me again, Tim.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[00:43:59] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you, again, for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week. 

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YFP 287: Monetizing Your Clinical Expertise with Dr. Timothy Gauthier


Timothy Gauthier, antimicrobial stewardship pharmacist and pharmacy entrepreneur, discusses the genesis of IDStewardship.com and LearnAntibiotics.com, how he has monetized his clinical expertise to create passive revenue streams, and how he balances the demands of entrepreneurship with his personal and professional commitments. 

About Today’s Guest

Timothy P. Gauthier, Pharm.D., BCPS, BCIDP is a pharmacist trained in infectious diseases and antimicrobial stewardship. He is a clinician, researcher, educator, and author. He is an advocate for antimicrobial stewardship and pharmacy education.

Dr. Gauthier graduated from Northeastern University’s School of Pharmacy (Boston, MA) in 2008. He then completed a Post-Graduate Year-1 Pharmacy Practice Residency and a Post-Graduate Year-2 Infectious Diseases Pharmacy Residency at Jackson Memorial Hospital (Miami, FL). Since finishing terminal training he has worked in academia (Nova Southeastern University, 2010-2015), clinical practice (Miami Veterans Affairs Healthcare System, 2015-2019), and a leadership role (Baptist Health South Florida, 2019-current), all focusing on advancing the fields of infectious diseases pharmacy and antimicrobial stewardship.

He holds certifications from the Board of Pharmacy Specialties for Pharmacotherapy and Infectious diseases. He has completed the Making A Difference in Infectious Diseases Pharmacotherapy Antimicrobial Stewardship Training Program.

He is the creator and editor-in-chief of www.IDstewardship.com, www.LearnAntibiotics.com, and the many @IDstewardship social media profiles. He co-hosts the #ASPchat each month on Twitter. He reaches thousands of people each day on the internet and on social media, where he aims share reliable and relevant information from the world of pharmacy and healthcare in general. IDstewardship.com alone has registered over 5,00,000 page views as of November 2022. He is also the author of the recently released book “Learn Antibiotics” which is now available for sale on Amazon.

Episode Summary

This week on the YFP Podcast, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, welcomes antimicrobial stewardship pharmacist and fellow pharmacy entrepreneur, Tim Gauthier. Tim is the creator of IDStewarship.com and LearnAntibiotics.com. During the show, Tim and Tim discuss the genesis for creating these two learning platforms, how Tim has monetized his clinical experience to create passive streams of income, and how he manages to stay consistent in entrepreneurship while balancing a full-time pharmacy career and fulfilling personal life. Listeners will hear about Tim’s pathway to pharmacy, what drew him into the profession, his passion for infectious disease pharmacy, and what he was hoping to accomplish with his learning platforms, IDStwardship.com and LearnAntibiotics.com. Tim walks us through the content and resources available on his websites and how he has monetized them while providing a wealth of free content to his community. Making things passive and generating passive revenue streams is crucial to Tim, and he shares the tools and systems he has put in place to make that goal possible while balancing other obligations. Tim also discusses the incredible value of community and how he has built an active, engaged pharmacists community that contributes to the platforms in multiple ways. Tim closes with advice for pharmacists looking to follow a similar path in monetizing their clinical expertise.

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] T. ULBRICH: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. 

This week, I had a chance to welcome antimicrobial stewardship pharmacist and fellow pharmacy entrepreneur, Tim Gauthier. Tim is the creator of IDStewardship.com and LearnAntibiotics.com. During the show, Tim and I talk about the genesis for creating these two learning platforms, how Tim has monetized his clinical expertise, and how he manages and leverages his time to be able to consistently put out good content while working full-time and fulfilling his personal commitments and goals.

Before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 250 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. 

All right, let’s jump into my interview with pharmacist and entrepreneur, Tim Gauthier. 

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:21] T. ULBRICH: Tim, welcome to the show.

[00:01:23] T. GAUTHIER: Hey, thanks for having me. I’m really excited to be here. How are you, Tim?

[00:01:26] T. ULBRICH: I’m well. I’m excited to dig into the work that you’re doing and for you to share with the YFP community how you’ve been monetizing your clinical expertise. But before we jump into that, I’d love to learn about your journey into pharmacy school, into the profession, where you went to school, when you graduated, and what drew you into the profession of pharmacy.

[00:01:44] T. GAUTHIER: Oh, yeah, of course. So I went to Northeastern University in Boston, Massachusetts and graduated in 2008, which feels like yesterday, but it’s been four years now. I got into pharmacy because I really was interested in microbiology. It turns out it’s easier to transfer into microbiology from pharmacy than pharmacy to microbiology. So I started in pharmacy. I ended up sticking with it. I never thought I’d go into infectious diseases pharmacy, just because it didn’t really cross my mind, and I didn’t know much about that early in my years. 

Then later on, after PGY1, I had the opportunity to do a PGY2 in ID. Lo and behold, today, I’m an infectious diseases-obsessed pharmacist, who’s out there to defend antibiotics and promote clinical pharmacy. So here we are today.

[00:02:27] T. ULBRICH: So the Northeast, Tim, to Florida. This is the time of year in the Northeast. I grew up in the Buffalo area, where it’s beautiful. I always say six months out of the year, I’d live anywhere else. But the Midwest I’m at now or the Northeast. But the other six months, included this time of year, is absolutely gorgeous. So do you miss the seasons at all?

[00:02:49] T. GAUTHIER: I do miss the seasons, but the winter in Miami, Florida, where I live now, is just absolutely wonderful. I love the culture, as well as all the different types of food here. We do visit. Periodically, I go to Boston, Rhode Island, Connecticut and stuff. So it’s nice to be able to have a little bit of the best of both worlds.

[00:03:06] T. ULBRICH: Yeah, yeah. So we connected several years back, and I’ve been following your work for some time. I wanted to bring you out in the show, as I think what you’ve built is a really cool example of how pharmacists can monetize their clinical expertise. Certainly, as we’ll talk about, it’s not just about the money, but it’s being able to leverage the skills, the passion, the interest that you have to fill a gap in the market and to help people looking to learn more about a topic. 

Here, we’re going to be talking about infectious disease, of course, and we have featured a variety of individuals on the podcasts over the past year or so. So I’m excited to share your journey as well. So let’s start with IDStewardship.com. When and why did you start it? Who was it for? What were you hoping to accomplish? 

[00:03:49] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. So IDStewardship.com has been alive since about 2016, and I just had a friend who knew how to build websites, and I wanted to build something on my own, and he offered to help and put it together. Then I kind of took off from there, and I do pretty much everything on my own now. When I have a technical problem, he comes in? But why did I do it? There’s a couple of reasons. 

One is I wanted to own my own space on the Internet, where I could have a voice, where I could publish things and not be restricted by a company or a manager or a group of people. Also, I just really enjoy your writing. So it gave me an opportunity to use a different part of my brain on the weekends and in the evening hours to share information that could be open access and someone else could benefit from. There’s a huge need in pharmacy. It has been for us to share our experiences and practical advice and insights so that others can learn and grow from it. 

Also, just sharing information about antibiotics to make it easier for people to understand what drugs can I use for MRSA or Pseudomonas. But then some deeper things like what are five things to know about, I don’t know, Stenotrophomonas or Acinetobacter. So really, it’s just a myriad of content these days. If you’re a pharmacy professional, if you’re a healthcare professional, there’s some stuff on there that you’ll be interested in. If you’re just looking for fun stuff, there’s a drug name emoji that people really, really seem to enjoy. 

[00:05:03] T. ULBRICH: So I’m trying to understand, Tim, the need you’re filling with this resource. So obviously, we all went through ID curriculums in our PharmD program. There are there are PGY2 residencies that focus on this fellowships who focus on this. Certainly, there are associations or interest groups within associations that focus on this. So what is different here that you’re trying to carve out to fill a need that you felt like either wasn’t being met for you or for other clinicians through those other learning pathways?

[00:05:32] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. I didn’t do very well in ID in pharmacy school, ironically, and I didn’t feel comfortable with it until I was like halfway through my PGY2. Practical resources that are available that are insightful and that consider the things that are beyond just the obvious, those were lacking. That really motivated me to try to put out things that were interesting. But also, like when you go to practice, these are five things you need to know about [inaudible 00:05:55] come across [inaudible 00:05:57]. I think that the community has received it really well, but I use social media to amplify that voice in different social media platforms. 

So it’s been a really rewarding experience, and collaborating with others from around the world has been something an area of success, I think, to be part of kind of the community that I’ve built. But I have a lot of flexibility, and that’s one thing that a lot of organizations don’t have.

[00:06:21] T. ULBRICH: Yes, yeah. The digestible nature of the content strikes me. You’ve alluded to it a couple of times with examples you’ve given thus far in the show. It reminds me of one of the pharmacist we’ve had on this show, Kelley Carlstrom, on episode 217. Her business called KelleyCPharmD. She does an awesome job of this in the pharmacy space, specifically in oncology practice, making it accessible, no matter where you are. She trained at the Cleveland Clinic, an internationally recognized institution. Not everyone can go do your residency there, right? Has the time to commit, potentially has to travel to do that. 

Her vision really is what about all the other hospitals? What about all the rural healthcare settings that are trying to treat patients and get their clinical staff up to speed? Or perhaps different practice models that don’t have a lineup of board certified residency trained pharmacists with multiple credentials? How can we expand the accessibility of this content? That’s one of things I love about what you’re doing here, and it really does strike me as being much more accessible than what is out there and some more traditional training programs or those that are offered by other groups. 

It’s also written and presented in a way that is easy to understand. It’s relevant. It’s things that, Tim, you’re experiencing daily as a clinician yourself or encounters when you’re precepting residents or students. So you know the pain points. You know the questions, the problems, the points of confusion because you’re living them each day. I love the platform of what you built to address that. 

So take us, Tim, through IDStewardship.com, in terms of the content you have, the resources you offer, and how you’ve been able to monetize it, right? You give out a lot of great content for free. But you also been able to monetize the site and enable to reap some of the fruit for all the work that you’re putting in, and you’ve put in over the last seven years. So talk to us about what you offer and provide on the site and how you’ve been able to monetize that.

[00:08:14] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. I offered way too much stuff for free, probably. But exactly like an altruistic passion project, it has to make some kind of money for my wife to allow me to continue it. So definitely, it’s a mixed bag. But the art of the IDStewardship.com offers articles, which are blog articles talking about the student experience, the pharmacist experience, clinical insights into common questions that we ask and that we see. Those are always written by content experts who have practical experience in the area, and I vet all that content to make sure it’s reliable, credible, and it goes beyond like the obvious content that you might find in a general article. 

Also, there’s a study guide section, which is free and open access that has a picture of the drug, some of my key points, which I think you might find on your pharmacy school exams or maybe the BCPS or BCIDP exam and then links to some of the articles or some of the guidelines that are really relevant to that drug. I have a list of resources, which is pretty cool. If you’re looking for anything about antibiotics, that is a very robust list of resources. So like hepatitis C screening for Child-Pugh score. There’s a calculator in there. Just pick one random example. Or even if you’re looking for regulatory content from the Joint Commission, it’s linked there. 

I also have the contributor section, where you can see who’s participated, and there’s really a lot of contributors to my website. So I do want to emphasize that that’s a really cool part of what I’ve been able to do, and it’s not just Tim doing it. It’s the community. But I kind of lead it because I’m kind of like the editor in chief of the content founder. The other part, though, which I really want to talk about for a second is LearnAntibiotics.com. So I’ve taken the opportunity to show people that, yes, these are articles that are available. But I’ve been able to produce content that you can use for learning. As a background in academia, I know that you have to go and be able to identify and define before you can analyze and assess and predict. 

So I’ve built content specifically to help people through that learning process. If you’re looking to identify and define, I have cheat sheets on different disease states, on different drug classes. Those can help people to say, okay, like, “Pseudomonas drugs, these are my drugs.” But then I also make more fun content that has like a word search or a Jeopardy game. Those can be applied to the specific area. Then the practice tests I’ve built so that if you are able to pass that practice test, you can practice pretty competently as a pharmacist and know what questions to ask for infectious diseases and even some of them I’ll give you. Here’s the question, here’s the answer, and here’s the rationale for why each answer is right, and each answer is wrong. So it’s pretty robust. 

[00:10:59] T. ULBRICH: I love that and I want to come back in a little bit to talk more about the LearnAntibiotics.com, in terms of what you’re trying to accomplish there. I think that’s going to give some folks some interesting ideas about as you’re considering monetizing your clinical expertise, there’s a lot of different ways to do that. I love what you’ve built there with that membership type of model. 

Two words, Tim, that really stand out about what you’ve built and the vision that you have going forward are passion and community. You mentioned community just a moment ago, and I love that you’ve brought together a group of people that are, obviously, passionate about learning more about antimicrobial stewardship, learning more about infectious disease, bringing in contributors to the site, taking them from just a passive learner, to engaging them in the conversation, contributing to the community, and then passion. Your passion for this topic and furthering individuals’ knowledge and, obviously, the more our healthcare professionals know about this topic, the better they’re able to serve their patients. 

I think this is so important for folks to hear, when you’re working on a side hustle or a business, especially when you’re working a full-time job, you have lots of other commitments, doing something that you’re passionate about, you mentioned that I probably got too much free content out there, right? It’s a passion project for you. Yes, you’re monetizing it. But that is going to really drive the energy and the enthusiasm to continue to build, especially in the early years, as someone who’s trying to get something off the ground. 

Tim, as people go to IDStewardship.com and they see what you’ve built over several years, how much of this is what you have built and maintained? And how much of this is what you have other people that are helping you in building and maintaining the site?

[00:12:36] T. GAUTHIER: That’s a great question, and it’s definitely changed over time. When I started to look at developing a website, I talked to one of my friends who’s in website development, and he said, “Tim, we can do a website. But this is not a six-month thing, and this is not a one-year thing. This is like a 10-year journey, and you have to think of it very long-term.” So taking small bites has been one of the keys to success. As I’ve understood the workflows on developing different items, it’s gotten to be more efficient over time. I do produce actually the majority of the content on my own when it comes to the background work. 

But the one thing that people send to the community of pharmacists, they’re willing to be a part of this journey. Them sending me articles and communicating with me and offering their assistance and trying to get their message out and share their passion, that really has enabled me to produce more content and put more information out there. But it is a tremendous amount of work. I do spend a lot of time between the hours of 8:00 PM and 11:00 PM working on this type of stuff. I think if you don’t have the passion for it, it’s probably going to be hard to do it long term. 

But that’s what drives me because I just really am totally obsessed with infectious diseases and microbial stewardship, and I think people need help learning. I needed a lot of help learning. I see where there’s benefit. I see where there’s value. There’s some monetary benefit that comes with it. It’s not anything that’s extreme by any means. But by having that win-win, it’s really been something that I think has been worth pursuing. 

One of the secrets that they say is not to do things alone, right? If you’re going to build a program like this, or you’re going to build a side business. I have mixed feelings about that. On one hand, I love the freedom that I have. I have total creative freedom to do whatever I want, whenever I want, with no one arguing with me. But at the same time, being in an echo chamber with yourself is not always a positive thing, and having a partner can push you in good directions. So I think partnerships are important, and you can choose to pursue things as a partnership or as an individual.

Something else I want to note that as I built out what I have online with IDStewardship is I’ve really purposely tried to make it about the brand and not about me. That kind of protects me in a way because the voice is the voice of the brand and not the voice of the individual. Also, people can engage within behind that brand and be a part of the community again, rather than it being part of what Tim is doing. So that was actually very strategic in the development. 

[00:15:02] T. ULBRICH: Yeah, Tim. I think that’s a strategic move for the reason you mentioned also. I think about the passion and the mission of what you’re trying to do. Like there may be a day where maybe this isn’t only Tim who’s doing this. Or for whatever reason, you have others that are involved in the mission of advancing the education around IDStewardship and being able to have this information accessible, where folks can learn and perhaps be excited about learning it I think transcends just one person, right? So I think the contributors is another important aspect here of what you’ve highlighted.

[00:15:34] T. GAUTHIER: Like making things passive is also really important to me. I’ve learned that a lot during COVID because COVID has been absolutely horrible for all infectious diseases pharmacists and time management and when life was balanced. I mean, everybody in general. But I mean, trying to keep up with the literature and be engaged, on top of having this site and stuff going on, I need things to be able to put on pause, right? If I have no commitments that I’ve made, that’s not going to serve me well in the long term. So I really try to do things that are passive whenever possible and then only commit to like a couple of things at a time.

[00:16:05] T. ULBRICH: Yeah. One other thing I was thinking about, Tim, as I was looking at your site, that would be I think good advice for folks that are thinking about building their own, especially if they don’t have a huge budget upfront to be able to hire a web developer. If you’re building a content-based site, it could be blog articles that you’re adding, podcasts that you’re adding, e-resources that you’re adding checklists, guides, e-books, whatever, like you want to make sure you’re building it in a way that you understand and can add to it on a regular basis. 

So even if you’re working with a developer or a contractor to help you, making sure you have enough understanding of the back end so that you’re not spending a whole lot of money long-term or frustrated that each time you’re trying to add a piece of content to the site, whether that’s a blog, podcast, an opt-in guide, whatever be the case, that you want to be able to have something that’s nimble, and you can add to over time. 

[00:16:51] T. GAUTHIER: I’ve seen some people who built 20,000, 25,000-dollar websites, and they tend to be the people that follow a lot of podcasters in the space of like social media and engagement and business development. So I think if you’re committed to it, it can be worth the money. But you got to proceed with caution.

[00:17:10] T. ULBRICH: When I go to the site, Tim, and you mentioned already that LearnAantibiotics.com, www.learnantibiotics.com, we’ll link to that in the show notes, which takes you over to the IDStewardship site, that really is the membership portion of the site, where folks can be engaging with the community on an ongoing basis. Obviously, the goal there is that becomes some stability of recurring revenue that supports a lot of the time and effort and the free content that you’re putting out there. 

Talk to us about – I think in content marketing, and I hesitate to use that word because I feel like you’re leading with such good passion and education that sometimes that word can sound dirty. But ultimately, the value that you’re providing and really good free rich education is naturally going to make people aware of what you’re doing on the membership side, which has a recurring revenue potential. 

So what has your strategy or approach been to connect the free content with the membership model? Is it just that, hey, more eyeballs on the site and value that they’ll kind of find their way over there? Is it opt-ins that then point people to that resource? Tell us more about the strategy that you’ve employed to connect the free education people are viewing and receiving with some of the paid options you have. 

[00:18:24] T. GAUTHIER: For sure. As you’re saying, this, I’m thinking about how I need to be more strategic. Sometimes, just go with the flow. That feels good. That feels good. Sometimes, I think of things, and I’m like, “Oh, I wish I had done that.” Even right now, there’s a list of things that if I had the time in my life to do, I would totally do. 

But in general, what I try to do is capture a large audience and engage a large audience and do that through all these different ways that I think of, whether it’s something that’s like a clickable link on an Instagram story, or it’s a new blog post that I put out, or it’s putting a meme out there or just sharing like, “Hey, here’s like a part of my cheat sheet. If you’d like to see more of it like, shoot me your email address. I’ll shoot you a copy of this cheat sheet in full.” Then I have a way to communicate with those individuals. So if you’re just interested in the LearnAntibotics site or you’re interested in like all of IDStewardship, and you want to get our monthly newsletter, I’m able to reach you that way.

Another thing that’s important about having a mail listing is that if like tomorrow, Instagram decides to just delete my account, which they can’t, I have nothing. I’m left with nothing. Whereas since I have a Mailchimp account, they’re able to house my ability to communicate with my people. So in general, I provide something for free. I get the ability to contact these people. If you want to unsubscribe, I have no problem with that. Actually, when people unsubscribe, I don’t have to pay for you to be on my listserv anymore. I actually don’t mind at all. So if you don’t look at the newsletters we send out, feel free to unsubscribe. But if you want to subscribe, then we’d love to communicate with you. 

I think that’s kind of the most important thing I’ve learned when it comes to telling people you have something to share with them, showing them that it’s meaningful, getting them excited about it, showing them that you’re a reliable person that has the know-how to get them the resource that they need to succeed. That is really critical. So that’s kind of some of the messaging there. 

[00:20:18] T. ULBRICH: Yeah. I think one of the other things you’ve done really well, Tim, that I admire is you’re consistent in your content. We know and we’ll talk in a moment about how you balance time with other personal responsibilities. None of us are perfect and consistent in delivering the same amount of material, but you’ve been consistent over the years in terms of there’s not months and months of like quiet phases, and then you dump a bunch of content. 

I think that’s so important for any – If we think about communities we like to be a part of or content we like to follow, it’s a consistent offering that we’re engaging with that content. So as you’re getting started, as someone’s getting started, I think thinking about what is – Once you decide on the medium, is it a blog, is it a podcast, whatever you’re looking at, is it something like a vlog, what is going to be your rhythm roughly that you’re going to be delivering content and making sure you’re showing up on a consistent basis with your audience and those that are finding value from what you’re doing?

[00:21:10] T. GAUTHIER: Along those lines, I think listening to your community is important. I had someone email me recently and say, “Hey, Tim. I wish you had a malaria cheat sheet because I’m studying for the BCIDP exam or the BCPS exam,” I forget which. I made one that weekend, and I really enjoyed it. I thought it was super interesting. I learned a bunch about malaria. So not only does it like help people advance their professional goals. It helps me remember things. I use my websites all the time to remember some of these nuances that are details that are just – You can’t remember everything.

[00:21:40] T. ULBRICH: That’s where I think the community piece comes in well too. You’ve got a good social media following. I’m sure people reach out to your questions all the time. You have students on rotation. You start to put some of those repeated questions into content buckets, right? I know you have a list of running content ideas. I’m sure you do. But once you hear a question more than one, two, or three times, it’s like, all right, maybe there’s something here in terms of a piece of content that we should be putting out. 

Let’s talk about time and balancing doing this. You’ve certainly made a strong case that there’s a lot of passion behind it. But nonetheless, like you’ve got a family. You’re working a full-time job. You’re precepting residents, students. You have expectations at home and at work. Like what strategies have you employed time blocking, or how have you been able to really leverage time so that you can continue to put out content on a consistent basis while working full-time?

[00:22:31] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. Well, in the early days, and I was working at the Veterans Affairs Hospital in Miami, and they’re very strict in terms of their hours. So when you’re off duty, you’re off time. So everything that I did in the beginning was during off hours. That’s still the same today, but it taught me that you should only work on these things when you’re not on company resources, etc. 

But then I didn’t have small children in the early days, which meant I have had a lot more time, especially in the evening areas of the day. More recently, I have a three-year-old and a seven-year-old, and the evening hours are much more strenuous. So now, since we’ve developed more of an awareness in the community about IDStewardship, I reach out to people. When I see an article posted on like Twitter about something new that I’m interested in, I’ll reach out to the person who authored the article and say, “Hey, I’d love to have you write five things to know about whatever the topic is.” 

People almost always say yes because they want to share their passion. But it’s not just about me getting content. They now have a way to share that information. Sometimes, it’s the resident or the student or the second or third author that I work with. So they get an opportunity to share their voice. Coming up with strategies where I don’t have to do all the work has been one thing. Then also, like when you look at the development of like research and scholarly work in an academic position, you kind of look at it like a conveyor belt, and you want projects in all areas of your conveyor belt. 

Some things are in – You’re designing. What do you think it might look like, and you have your concepts, your list of projects? Then other things are going into publication, going out on the newsletter. So you’re constantly just like feeding that conveyor belt and keeping it going in different areas, and that’s how you stay productive over a long period of time. It’s not about taking one thing and rushing it forward but just maintaining that conveyor belt. There might be different conveyor belts that go faster or slower, and some things might take two years to do. 

But I always move forward with projects based upon what I think is like fun and interesting, and I don’t put pressure on people. I’m not out there saying, “Hey, if you don’t get back to me in two weeks, you’re not going to be allowed to do this.” If you don’t feel like doing this later because you have a problem, whatever. Don’t do it. If you want to circle back in two years, circle back into years, like no pressure.

[00:24:39] T. ULBRICH: Take us a little bit behind the scenes. I think one of the barriers that folks run into is they’re just trying to get started, and they go to someone’s site. They don’t necessarily have a picture of what are some of the tools and the systems and the processes that you have in place. You’ve mentioned a couple things already. Obviously, you’ve got the website infrastructure. You mentioned the email list. So like for us, we use WordPress for our website build. We use Bluehost for our domain hosting. We use ActiveCampaign for our email marketing. Then we have several other tools we use for project management and other things. 

So what are some of the tools that you use or that you have found to be helpful as you’ve been working on IDStewardship?

[00:25:18] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah, for sure. I use WordPress, and then I use WPX Hosting. Then for like the memberships, it’s PMPro or Paid Memberships Pro. I’ve been pretty happy with those overall. The WordPress in particular, it’s just overall really easy to use. You add a plug in. It updates. It’s no big deal. WPX is really – Once a year, I pay a fee. Once in a while, I’ll have a bandwidth issue. So I’ve learned that I need to downsize the images that I use when I post, which I think a lot of people kind of learn that lesson. 

I mean, that’s really the gist of it. Outside that, I use Mailchimp for my emails. I don’t really love how much they charge. I think they’re charging me like 250 a month for like 25,000 subscribers. So it’s great to have that many subscribers, but it doesn’t feel good paying $2,500 a year for that. But it also motivates me to put out content to use that tool that I’m paying for. So those are some of the key things that I’m using now. 

Otherwise, I just maintained like Excel sheets for a while. In the beginning, when I didn’t have as much content, I would do a lineup, and I would remind myself of when I posted to Facebook about a specific blog post, and I would just keep cycling through them. So I was always posting like one thing a day on Facebook. But it’s gotten to the point that I can’t do that anymore. I’d need to hire like a social media manager or something like that. I think as you grow, you need to start considering how can you work with who can you bring in. 

Another thing is as I’ve kind of met people in life through my way or through other venues, I work with them. So I just met a guy over the weekend that he prints things for a living, right? So there’s so much opportunity for us to collaborate with printing things. My audience is interested in topics of pharmacy and infectious diseases. So being entrepreneurial is one of the definitely keys to success here and also not being stuck in your ways, being able to evaluate things, and then accept feedback. If it’s not going well and someone tells you it’s not going well, take that advice and see how you can make it better and ask them, “Hey, how can I make this better?”

[00:27:13] T. ULBRICH: Yes, great advice, Tim. I think for people that are listening, and they hear 25,000 people on an email list and again not getting paralyzed from Jump Street. I think I love what you shared of it was a spreadsheet to begin with, right? I’ve shared before on this podcast that the first 100 subscribers on our email list were a combination of text messages and Facebook messages and LinkedIn posts that I had, and that eventually got added to an email software. Eventually, we added automations. Eventually, we added opt-in funnels and all those things, project management, social media management tools, things like that. But just getting started, you can do a lot of that manually. Get some of the things off the ground. Then as you get momentum, you can build out the systems and the processes that will help with efficiencies. 

Tim, if someone is listening and they are on the very front end of this, so let’s just pick another specialty that’s out there, and they’re thinking, “I’d love to build something in this domain, similar to what I see Tim doing with IDStewardship, Kelley doing with oncology. I also think about what Jimmy Pruitt’s doing with acute care out there in pharmacy,” like what advice would you have with them at the very beginning of their journey? If you think back to where you were when you started in 2015, like now looking back seven years later, like what piece of advice would you have to share with them as they get started on this journey?

[00:28:33] T. GAUTHIER: Well, I mean, first of all, not just because I – If I say something, it doesn’t mean it’s necessarily true. So it’s just my opinion on some of this. So feel free to disagree. But one thing I feel is that, especially when it comes to social media, people go on Twitter, on TikTok, on Facebook because they’re looking for things for themselves. So if you’re not putting out things that are going to be interesting to your audience, then your audience is not going to grow like they should. 

So everything that you do, no matter what you’re doing, should be aligned with why your audience is going to that area, and that’s going to help to get them to like it, get them to share it, which is very, very difficult in the pharmacy profession. We’re like 90% passive users. We love to learn. 

[00:29:11] T. ULBRICH: That’s right. 

[00:29:13] T. GAUTHIER: I’ll post something on Facebook, man, and it’s like five likes. But then I’ll see that I got 250 link clicks. So it’s very interesting. From an outside, you might look at my Facebook page or something and say, “Oh, I got a couple of likes or clicks,” and you can’t see the clicks, but you’ll only see a couple of likes, and they got lots of clicks. So it’s kind of one thing that’s important, I think, as you’re starting off. 

Another thing about starting off would probably be considered like long-term how you’re going to grow, and you’re talking about the design of your product. I think that core message and that core what am I doing here is really important. Over time, is that going to change? Because if it’s focused on something that’s relevant now like COVID, for example, or monkeypox, maybe that’s not relevant in two years from now.

[00:29:59] T. ULBRICH: It’s pretty cool. Yep, absolutely. That’s great stuff, Tim. I’m excited for our listeners, if they’re not already aware to follow the journey, and I hope they’ll opt in your newsletter. Where is the best place that folks can go to follow you and the journey and the work that you’re doing?

[00:30:16] T. GAUTHIER: Yeah. I mean, definitely IDStewardship.com, and you can sign up for our newsletter there or just follow along on Instagram or our Facebook or goods areas. Twitter, you can find me there as well. It’s a little bit more focused on infectious diseases and as a whole and staying up with the literature on Twitter. So either of those but the newsletters are really a good place to start.

[00:30:37] T. ULBRICH: Awesome. Thanks, Tim. Appreciate you taking time to come on the show.

[00:30:39] T. GAUTHIER: Oh, it was my pleasure. We’ve worked together for so long over the years. It’s really a wonderful opportunity for me, and I appreciate your time.

[00:30:46] T. ULBRICH: Thank you. 

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[00:30:47] T. ULBRICH: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you, again, for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week. 

[END]

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YFP 257: How This Pharmacist Helps Others Transform and Advance Their Practice to Have a Joyful Career


How This Pharmacist Helps Others Transform and Advance Their Practice to Have a Joyful Career

In today’s episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Dr. Kimber Boothe, PharmD, MHA talks about her career in health systems and the pharmaceutical industry, why she founded the Kimber Boothe Group, how she has monetized her expertise, and the lessons she’s learned from publishing her second book, ‘Pharmfluencers: The Inspiring Stories of Pharmacy Entrepreneurs.’

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Kimber Boothe, PharmD, MHA, is a pharmacist, healthcare leader, and entrepreneur with decades of experience in health systems and the pharmaceutical industry. Kimber is the founder and CEO of the Kimber Boothe Group where she helps pharmacists transform and advance practice to have a joyful engaging career. 

She serves by providing coaching, consulting, and courses on:

  • Leadership & Career Development
  • Pharmacy Strategy & Innovation/Intrapreneurship
  • Pharmacy Entrepreneurship

She calls herself a Connector and a Pharmovator® and is the creator and author of several programs and books to guide pharmacists to success. CONNECTOR CORE™ is a program on the Connector Framework™ – Connectorability™, Connector Alignment™, Connector Foundation™, and Connector LIFE™. PHARMOVATION® is a course and system to Accelerate Your Pharmacy Career, Advocate for resources & Advance Pharmacy Practice, and PHARMFLUENCER™ is to Influence, Multiply, and Impact Pharmacy through Entrepreneurship.

Kimber previously led the pharmacy services for a four-hospital community health system where she drove innovative strategy for the pharmacy enterprise as the Chief Pharmacy Officer. She was also the Director of Clinical Pharmacy Services at Yale New Haven Health. She is a graduate of the University of Connecticut School of Pharmacy and Medical University of South Carolina College of Pharmacy, University of Phoenix Masters in Health Administration program, and completed residency training at Virginia Commonwealth University Medical College of Virginia Hospitals.

She is passionate about spending time on the right things to develop others and deliver strategic, focused results. Her motto is Pharmacy Can do More with More™ and her goal is to support the addition of 100 new health system pharmacy positions annually.

She is the recipient of the Connecticut Society of Health System Pharmacists Meritorious Achievement Award and her prior organization has been recognized with the Kentucky Society of Health System Pharmacists Innovative Health-System Pharmacy Practice Award.

Episode Summary

There are more methods to monetize your knowledge and expertise in the pharmacy industry than you think. All you have to do is pick one. In this episode, discussing the various options and sharing her personal pharmacy path from clinical roles to leadership and consulting is Dr. Kimber Boothe. Not only is Dr. Boothe the author of two books, Pharmovation: Advocate for Resources, Advance Pharmacy Practice, & Accelerate Your Pharmacy Career and Pharmfluencers: The Inspiring Stories of Pharmacy Entrepreneurs, but she’s also the founder of the Kimber Boothe Group, where she guides pharmacists towards a joyful, engaging, and lucrative career. Listeners will hear Dr. Boothe break down the differences between intrapreneurship and entrepreneurship and her experience with each. We discover the purpose behind her mission, learn about her personal growth goals as she moves from a solopreneur to filling staff positions and hear her thoughts on the importance of intentional career development. We also delve into the power of mindset with Dr. Boothe, who shares some actionable tips for shaping a positive mindset. Dr. Boothe also takes a moment to discuss the levels of relationships, types of coaching available to you as a pharmacist, and why she believes coaching is so important. 

Key Points From This Episode

  • Dr. Boothe’s career path in pharmacy, from clinical roles to leadership and consulting. 
  • Defining intrapreneurship versus entrepreneurship.
  • The pros of allowing for intrapreneurship within an organization.
  • Why Dr. Boothe believes pharmacy can do more with more.
  • The genesis of The Kimber Boothe Group and the problems it aims to solve.
  • Dr. Boothe’s growth goals.
  • The importance of being intentional about career development.
  • The purpose of Dr. Boothe’s book, Pharmfluencers, and the information it contains.
  • Ways to monetize your knowledge and expertise in the pharmacy industry.
  • The power of mindset and tips for shaping a positive mindset.
  • The four levels of relationships and why Dr. Boothe believes having a coach is critical.
  • Dr. Boothe’s transition from being a solopreneur to hiring and filling positions.

Highlights

“Intrapreneurship is the opportunity to be innovative at work within the safety and support of an organization. It’s basically that ability to do innovative things, but within that support where you have additional financial support. You don’t have the risk of having your own business.” — Kimber Boothe, PharmD, MHA [0:04:47]

“I’m really pro pharmacy. I want to advance the profession, whether it is through intrapreneurship or with entrepreneurs.” — Kimber Boothe, PharmD, MHA [0:27:51]

“Once you read [Pharmafluencers], you’re inspired. You can think through and find your ikigai, which is your passion and purpose, and tie that to something that can be monetized.” — Kimber Boothe, PharmD, MHA [0:31:59]

“Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. There’s not a thing to be waited for. It is a thing to be achieved.” — Kimber Boothe, PharmD, MHA [0:37:16]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here. Thank you for listening to the YFP podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.  This week I had the chance to welcome pharmacy leader, influencer, and entrepreneur Dr. Kimber Boothe, to talk about her career in health systems in the pharmaceutical industry, why she founded the Kimber Boothe Group, where she helps pharmacists transform and advance practice to have a joyful, engaging career, how she has been able to monetize her expertise and the lessons that she learned from publishing her second book, Pharmfluencer: The Inspiring Stories of Pharmacy Entrepreneurs

Before we hear from today’s sponsor and then jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning, financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacies achieve financial freedom. Okay, let’s hear from today’s sponsor, and then we’ll jump into my interview with Kimber Boothe. 

This week’s podcast episode is brought to you by Insuring Income. Insuring Income is your source for all things term, life insurance, and Own Occupation Disability Insurance. Insuring Income has a relationship with America’s top-rated Term life insurance and disability insurance company, so pharmacists like you can easily find the best solutions for your personal situation. To better serve you. Insuring Income reviews all applicable carriers in the marketplace for your desired coverage, support clients in all 50 states, and makes sure all of your questions get answered. 

To get quotes and apply for Term life or disability insurance, see sample contracts from disability carriers or learn more about these topics. Visit insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist. Again that’s insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:02:10] TU: Kimber. Welcome to the show.

[00:02:12] KB: Thank you, Tim. It’s great to be here.

[00:02:14] TU: So excited to have the opportunity to talk with you. Before we do a deep dive into the work that you’re doing today and much of your entrepreneurial journey as of late, talk to us about the path of your work in the pharmacy. Where that began, your interest in the profession as well as your career journey as a clinical specialist in the industry, and then as a health system leader?

[00:02:35] KB: Thank you, Tim. Well, I just, first of all, want to say that I do love our profession of pharmacy and I think, I want to thank you for everything you’re doing to support our profession’s financial health and support our innovation. I have had a wonderful career in pharmacy, starting mostly in hospitals and health systems and various clinical roles and as a cardiology specialist, moving up to leadership roles, ultimately into being assistant director, chief pharmacy officer for Community Health System, as well as being a director, system director of clinical services for an academic health system.

I also did spend ten years in the Pharma industry, so I had that experience, which I actually do owe a lot of my innovation and business savvy to the development I had in the Pharma industry where I did various roles in the medical affairs department. But was definitely drawn back to health systems, to what I referred to these days as my entrepreneurship activities, where I was promoting innovative practice, and bold strategic planning to advance pharmacy within an organization such as health systems.

[00:03:46] TU: Kim, I want to dive a little bit deeper on that, because I think there’s a lot of glorification that’s going on in entrepreneurship right now. We use that term a lot, and I think sometimes that can be interpreted as being synonymous with your own business or starting your own business, but entrepreneurship is a term where we’re starting to see grow, and I’m grateful for that. I think in the profession that term, I actually like a little bit more because I think it’s something that everyone can resonate with regardless of their role and the impact that they can have on the profession. So define for a moment what you mean by entrepreneurship and obviously, I think that’s something that we’re seeing. Lots of folks have opportunities within the profession that could be independent of owning their own business, right?

[00:04:26] KB: Absolutely. At the end of the day, entrepreneurship is wonderful. I know we’ll probably talk more about that as well, later on in this conversation, as I am now, what I like to call a full-time entrepreneur. But at the end of the day, most people are not going to be entrepreneurs, when you look at our total profession, 350,000 pharmacists in the US. intrapreneurship is that opportunity to be innovative at work within the safety and support of an organization. It is referred sometimes to as an entrepreneur on the job, or an entrepreneur in an organization. It’s basically that ability to do innovative things, but within that support where you have additional financial support, you don’t have the risk of having your own business.

That company is taking the risk, but there’s definitely some challenges because I know there are some organizations that are not open to these innovative ideas and you may not be able to implement something that you’re trying to do. But definitely the most successful organizations out there, whether they’re in health care or external to health care, those that allow for intrapreneurship’ to occur within their organization are more successful. Allowing the employees, team members to come up with ideas, allowing them time to work on those ideas while in the organization, helps their bottom line, helps them to be more successful, and ultimately to create more revenue for the company.

[00:06:00] TU: Yeah. I think that’s a great point. I mean, yes, it increases the bottom line increases of revenue, hopefully, pushes the innovation. I would argue also for the employee having that autonomy, having that space for creativity also probably ties to things like satisfaction in the workplace and retention and obviously can have a positive impact for employers as well, if they’re able to create that space to allow for entrepreneurship. Kimber, your motto is, “Pharmacy can do more with more with more.” What do you mean by that?

[00:06:30] KB: Well, I have to admit that definitely is my motto. Well, there is definitely times that we need to find efficiencies. I get very upset when I hear that phrase, do more with less. Yes, again, there’s times we can find efficiencies, use technology and be able to do more, but what I’ve seen in our profession is that we are underutilized and under-resourced for all of the massive amounts of unmet medication and health-related needs out there.

When I actually return to health systems after my ten years in PharmOn, I realized that the health system I was working at had grown immensely in terms of the number of patients, the number of services being provided, but the pharmacy team had really not grown in the same ratio. What I recognize is that we could be doing so much more, but we only had enough resources to focus on the most acute problems and whether that was on the acute care hospital side or even in the amateurish space where we had very few ambulatory pharmacists helping patients on an ongoing basis.

I came up with that motto and it’s definitely stuck with me and it’s really my mission and really why I left my intrapreneurship role to do entrepreneurship because my goal is to help create 100 new positions every year in pharmacy. When I think about some of the concerns that there is too many pharmacy students graduating, or when I look at the data and you really look at the unmet needs of complex medications, aging populations, clinician, physician shortages, I see a huge need for pharmacists.

Well, I don’t know the exact number of pharmacists we need. We definitely need more pharmacists practicing, but in different places than we are today, and also with different and better reimbursement models that value our overall benefit to health care and what I often referred to as the quadruple aim that we can help with improving the quality of care, we can improve the patient experience, we can improve provider satisfaction, and ultimately reduce costs by having more pharmacy team members.

The last thing I’ll say about it is, I often do the reason I say pharmacy can do more, not just pharmacists, is I definitely see a huge value of our pharmacy technician team members and have definitely advocate in for increasing their roles and as part of a true career for them, as well as, of course, integrating our students and optimizing more roles or creating more resonant positions. That’s why I often say pharmacy can do more with more, not just pharmacists.

[00:09:21] TU: Yeah. I love Kimber, your vision and an abundance mindset of creating new positions, right? 100 new positions in pharmacy each year. I wish we would see that adoption at a greater level among our national organizations and others because I think it really gets out of the conversation of, we only have so many jobs in this many graduates. What do we do? How do we increase the pie, right? How do we increase the pie and the opportunities that are out there? Which require, what we were just talking about a moment ago, that culture and spirit of intrapreneurship and entrepreneurship. So talk to us about the genesis of The Kimber Boothe Group. Your business and we’ll talk more about products and services here in a moment. But The Kimber Boothe Group, what problems or challenges did you face? What were you trying to remedy with this business?

[00:10:04] KB: Well, it’s interesting. When I first started the business really eight years ago, definitely as a side hustle, maybe many of your listeners are doing or considering doing. So at the time, actually when I started, I was actually still in Pharma at that time, and definitely, I had had multiple business ideas that all ended up in a file cabinet. So there was definitely a bug that I had around entrepreneurship but hadn’t found the right fit for me until I actually came across this thought leader, influencer model of an expert where it took away some of what I saw as barriers to a business like physical space products. It became about, what are you good at? What do people come to you for? What are you the expert in? How can you monetize that knowledge by sharing it with other people and helping them to grow, and becoming that multiplier to spread? 

When I came across this expert’s model, that’s when I decided actually to create my business. I came up with a list of the things again that people naturally came to me for, the things that I was drawn to learning more about. It was definitely a lot about strategic planning, project management, and career development were the three main areas, both career development in terms of your professional development, but also being more assertive about your career trajectory and path. So that’s how I started. It was very general. I started to do some things on the side, some coaching.

I always to refer back to my first coaching client was an opera-singing soccer mom who just wanted some help to get back into opera singing and into the stage where she had to focus on her family for so long. We worked through that and she got on stage. So she was my first coaching client. From there it was a few years later that I actually went to the Medipreneurs Conference, which is an event that a few pharmacists had created, Anna Garrett, Sue Paul and Michelle Fritsch created that event. When I went to that event, I realized there that my passion is pharmacy, and that is where I had had definitely some success with doing some intrapreneurship business plans, justifying more positions.

I was being asked to speak by various organizations, conferences. I said, “Why am I trying to do this business very broad? I should be niching down or focusing my target to pharmacy.” Because I don’t mind helping soccer moms and things like that, but really, my passion is pharmacy. What I really wanted to do and connect those dots together was really focusing on helping the pharmacy profession to advance through sharing, again, similar topics. Strategic planning, project management, and career development were definitely a big part of that. 

Back then, is when I created my Pharmovation course, which then turned into my Pharmovation book and the pharmovation consulting that I do for health systems which is where I spend most of my time these days, is actually helping organizations to write strategic plans, write those business plans that actually justify those additional positions.

[00:13:33] TU: For folks that are interested in learning more about what Kimber had shared of the influencer expert business model. She talks about it in her book, Pharmfluencers: The Inspiring Stories of Pharmacy Entrepreneurs. So more information there, I think that’s a great way for pharmacists to think about, especially what Kimber, or when I think about your career journey and the expertise that you have. I suspect many of the relationships in the network that you have, it makes a whole lot of sense that you’re doing some of that consulting.

If I heard you correctly you’re doing both on the business to business side, you’re consulting with health systems and organizations, helping them on a strategy leadership level, but then also you have a suite of services that are really on the business to consumer the B2C side for the individual being the courses, the coaching and the books. Is that correct?

[00:14:19] KB: Exactly, yes. I have what I call my product matrix of what I’m trying to support people with. Yeah, there’s definitely the consulting arm that focuses on the businesses themselves. I’m usually paid by director of pharmacy, usually. Then others, whether it’s individual coaching online courses or membership programs where people have opportunities for all of us to connect in a smaller group coaching atmosphere, both on the entrepreneurship side and the entrepreneurship side.

[00:14:53] TU: Could you break down a little bit further, Kim? You said you spent a vast majority of your time in consulting with the health system, roughly speaking certainly not share individual numbers, but roughly speaking on time spent or revenue of the business, if we think about this as a pie chart with your consulting to organizations, and then some of the coaching and the coursework that you’re doing with individuals or smaller groups as well as the books or other products. How would you break that down in terms of the different products and services that are within your business?

[00:15:21] KB: Yeah. That’s a very good question in terms of that breakdown and what it is now and what I wanted to be, I’ll share here. So right now it is more 90% of my time and 90% of my revenue is coming from consulting. That is that work and the other 10% is coming from the membership’s one-on-one coaching and other things like the summit programs that I’ve done. So that 90/10 a ratio, I’m definitely wanting to change that a little bit. I’m doing things like I have a full-time assistant and we’re trying to grow the online business through the membership basically, just because my time is limited.

If I want to be able to have more impact and reach more people, it’s not going to be through my one-on-one consulting. So I think the goal would be to grow that about to 40% of the business, 50 to 60% maintaining on the consulting side because I still think that’s vital for me. Having that integrated involvement with organizations is really helpful for me to grow and for me to really have the biggest impact, but I also know again, to reach more people and to get other people to write their own business plans so that we can create even more than 100 positions a year is definitely how I want to grow.

Again, moving towards more of a, almost a 50/50, but in this current year, my goal is to get to at least 80/20. So each year I have a goal to move that needle about 10%. Again, some of that is through growing my group membership that I have called the Connector Leadership Circle. Again that I can help more people at once and I can through, one-on-one coaching conversations or one to business consulting. I will share my other goal with growing is to add to my team. So I’m definitely talking with folks about doing some consulting with me, so I could potentially take on more consulting clients if I had a team. Right now it is just a team of one, right now. 

While I have been asked by other consulting companies to become part of their firms, I’ve chosen to stay on my own, because of the flexibility, so I could focus on what I want with this ratio of services. Again, I recognize that organizations do need help. When I’m full on my consulting or my coaching clients and I can’t take anymore, well, how can I serve more? That would be adding to my team and them coming under the Kimber Boothe Group to do the consulting with me and as well as potentially some additional coaches. 

I do recognize that people do come to me for my knowledge, but there’s a lot of people who have learned from me over the years and can teach and do what I’m doing. So it doesn’t have to be just about me. I think the last thing I’ll just share with that is when it comes to having a business, my current business coach, which of course I’ve always recommended having a coach throughout my career. I’ve either paid for myself or advocated through my organizations to have a coach. My current coach is definitely very focused business. What they say in that program, which is, it’s called Action Coach, and they follow very organized format for business owners, but their definition of a business owner is owning a business that can operate independently of you.

I definitely am not there yet, and I don’t know that I’ll ever want it to be that way. But if I want to leave a long-lasting legacy that is why I am exploring with my coach. What are these ways through adding to my consulting team or adding additional coaches, creating these membership programs where I can reach more people and it can become a little more independent. So that is my goal. I don’t think I ever started that way, though. I mean, honestly, that definition and that thought process is still pretty new, because when I did think of this thought leader model and when I did even think about what to call my business. 

I called it my name because a lot of the people I was learning from back then, that’s what they did and then their products, so I brand my products and services and trademark them, but the business itself was me, but in this new mindset it won’t be me in the future at some point or it definitely will be a team. That is why it says group, not just Kimber Boothe, so that is part of that. So thanks for letting me share those thoughts.

[00:20:07] TU: No, I’m glad you did, because, because one of the things I always encourage folks as they have an idea that they’re passionate about. They want to pursue or they say, “I want to start my own business.” One of the things I’ll ask and encourage them is, what’s the goal? What do you want this to look like? What is the vision of that product or that service? But if we fast forward 20 to 30 to 40 years, is this a lifestyle business? Are you a solo entrepreneur? Do you envision a model where, as you mentioned, Kimber, by definition of sounds what the action coach program does that this can operate without you and therefore live on without you, which makes a whole lot of sense when you talk about this vision of really impacting and leaving a dent in the profession and growing positions, like scalability makes a whole lot of sense, right? Because there goes the impact that you can have and that could mean beyond your career that could mean time off that you have, but that other folks are helping to advance that mission. 

That’s part of a couple of reasons why I wanted to dig in a little bit of behind the curtain of the business is, one I suspect that you may have many listed units and I am really interested in learning more about what Kimber is doing. You can find all this at kimberboothe.com. We’ll link to that in the show notes. Number two, is that I don’t think we often share enough of among pharmacy entrepreneurs of what is the actual bones of the business look like today and where do we want it to go? 

I think that’s so helpful, because for many people that are at the different phases of, hey, I’ve got an idea, or it’s a side hustle, or I’m actually starting to validate an idea and grow it and scale it.  Being able to hear, even if someone isn’t thinking about a model that fits necessarily within the realm of what you’re doing, I think it’s helpful to hear other models that exist, how those businesses are monetized. What are some of the challenges and where do they envision the growth going in the future? So my follow up question with that in mind, Kimber, is as you have this business that has both a, B2B, so business to business, working with health system organizations, consulting as well as a, B2C, where you’re doing individual types of coaching and programs and books, do you see synergy between the two?

As you talk about your services, I could see where you’re consulting with an organization, and leaders within that organization may say, “Hey, I want some coaching or services individually for me, or vice versa.” Where individuals are engaging with your products, as an individual, as a consumer, and they say, “Hey, we really would love to have Kimber be a part of our organization.” Do you see some of that crossover that’s happening?

[00:22:29] KB: Yes, definitely. There’s crossover on the B2B and the B2C where, yeah, I think both ways. Definitely where I’ve been brought in as a consultant and then they say, “Oh I want to join your membership to have this.” You can finish your consulting project, but now I want to stay involved either themselves or they want it for their team members. So they’ll have them join the membership or attend my summits, buy my books. Also on the other side definitely, I’ve worked with people as one-on-one coaches, and then they say, “Oh this is great. We’ve gotten this far, but it would really help if you can come in and work with us directly. So I’m going to suggest you be a consultant.” I definitely have started, I do plan to look into this further is also trying to get these organizations as part of a bulk purchase. So can they, as part of their professional development of their team members, they pay for.

[00:23:33] TU: Yes.

[00:23:33] KB: Rather than many times the individual is paying for some of my services and products with the health system or pharmacy pay for their members to go. I have group rates, again that I’ve introduced to a few health systems, but want to offer that more broadly where if they have ten people join one of my courses or join the membership, they get ten, 20% off, because they have paid for it. Then the individual has gotten that support and recognition from the organization, so absolutely a lot of synergy there.

[00:24:13] TU: I love that, Kimber. I think you and I maybe talked about this offline while ago as we share some previous career paths and links in the health system pharmacy leadership role. I think that area is so right for ongoing coaching development at the pharmacy director and management level of folks that have found themselves in those roles through extensive training and obviously lots of professional development that got them there. If I’m a director of pharmacy, Chief Pharmacy Officer, I want to not only recruit and retain that top talent, but I want them to grow in their awareness of what is possible. We’ll talk in a moment here about mindset. I certainly see value that can happen as you’re working with organizations also doing some individual coaching and consulting as well, so glad to hear that you’re exploring that direction.

[00:25:03] KB: I think. Well, I’ll just add to that, Tim, briefly. Obviously, you’ve focused a lot on the health system pharmacy leadership with the residency programs. It is great when people know they wanted to go into leadership and they tend to focus on that, but what I’ve definitely seen in pharmacy is a lot of times people are appropriate. They’re very focused on their clinical knowledge. Then they get tapped for leadership positions or they have an interest. It is surprising to me when I ask a group of pharmacists,  “Who has a professional development plan?” And maybe five to 10% of the people will raise their hand. I’ve been in audiences where nobody has raised their hands.

Sometimes we finish school and then we’re doing continuing education, but we’re not being strategic about our career development. So for me, it’s all about being strategic, not just in the business plans, but being strategic about your career and those are a lot of the folks that I help in addition to the health system, pharmacy leadership, residency training folks who knew that they wanted to go into leadership. It’s all of the other team members who weren’t as interested, but because they’re strong clinicians, they do get tacked and there’s a lot of a need and opportunity there for ongoing support.

[00:26:22] TU: You’re giving me flashbacks, Kimber of I think everyone who’s gone through residency can relate to the days. It was resi track back in the day when I completed — I think it’s an out form academic, but just the extensive evaluation and goal setting and professional development that happens during that training year. Then you just enter into the wild, wild West. That’s a common thing you hear among folks of that transition is very stark from development and goal setting and evaluation that’s very rigorous to like it becomes much more self-initiated unless you’ve got a supervisor that is very, very passionate about that. So, great reminder for folks that have gone through that training or have not, I think of how important it is to be intentional as we think about the professional development piece. 

Kimber, your latest book, Pharmfluencers: The Inspiring Story of Pharmacy Entrepreneurs. Folks can find that book available on Amazon. You can also go to our kimberboothe.com to get more information. One of things you say in the intro is, “I know far too many pharmacists who are experiencing burnout from working within the health care industry who find themselves unable to achieve the level of financial freedom they want, who believe that they can do more than what they’re allowed within the confines of their job.” For those that hear that, that are listening and say, yes, that’s me. What advice would you have for them?

[00:27:43] KB: Well, definitely get the book. The reason I chose to do to get this book together is again, I’m really pro pharmacy. So I want to advance the profession, whether it is through intrapreneurship or with entrepreneurs. So this book, what’s so cool about it, is it is 34 pharmacist entrepreneurs and their inspiring stories of how they have taken their passions, their knowledge, such as yourself as you are featured in this book to share that of how they have created a business to monetize their knowledge and have the impact that they desire.

Some people are doing it, definitely there’s people in the book that are doing it as a side hustle. Others that have been able to transition to it full time like you and I. It is just my way of helping to motivate people to know that they can do this again, either on the side or as a full-time career. Again, I don’t think this is the only path, by all means, I do see lots of opportunity in pharmacy. I do think within our organizations we need to be innovative about it, but I do love entrepreneurship. It’s been a wonderful experience for me in terms of being able to be having some freedom and the creativity to design a business that in some cases has more flexibility than a job.

It does have more risks sometimes. We know there’s some data that shows that small businesses don’t succeed. Again, a lot of what this book focuses on is this expert’s model or the that’s why it’s the pharmacist influencers. So in this book, I really focus on what I said about my business. It’s a slightly easier business model than others that have lots of infrastructure, but what we do talk about in the book and why I think people who are interested in or just want to understand more about businesses is getting the book, reading the stories to be inspired.

There is access to a chapter that talks about the outline of the Pharmfluencer business model, which will walk through some of the basics of starting a business and understanding some of those aspects of why would you start a business? What type of topics do you want to focus on? Definitely we go into what I’ve summarized as the 14 common methods to monetize your knowledge. This is where somebody who, and we definitely have a lot of different entrepreneurs out there like yourself who focus on an area. We have the Prednisone Pharmacists, we have the Fertility Pharmacists, the Public Health Pharmacists, we have all sorts of people who are diving deep in areas to get and share their knowledge, but also being able to monetize that.

Those 14 methods range from creating apps and tools, writing books or e-books, creating online courses, doing coaching one-on-one or group, consulting, clinical services, which is a lot of what I would say when we think about some of the entrepreneurship in pharmacy these days doing MTMs, doing fee for service, clinical services. That’s still an awesome method, but that’s not the only way to monetize your knowledge. You can do live seminars, create masterminds, memberships, sell to smaller PDFs. You could be physical products like Dr. Megan who is the Prednisone Pharmacist, she has a supplement for people on prednisone.

You can do speaking and that could be potentially a moneymaker. It’s definitely also a marketing tool. You can also sell webinars and even do virtual summits these days, which have become important. So those are the 14 ways that I think of to monetize your knowledge that we talk about in the book and then each of the 34 pharmfluencers shares what their journey is and what they’re doing to monetize their knowledge.

You only have to pick one to start. So once you read the book, you’re inspired, you can think through and find your ikigai, which is your passion and purpose, and tie that to something that can be monetized and you pick a method to monetize. I honestly did not start with books. Books are not necessarily my favorite thing to do. So definitely the coaching was where I started doing that one-on-one coaching that actually has probably the lowest barrier to entry in terms of ease for supporting people, right away. Then I moved on to creating the online courses and selling those. Then as you heard about some of the other methods that I am using.

[00:32:38] TU: That’s what I loved about the book, Kimber, is that the 14 ways and ideas that folks can have, the buckets, if you will, of how to monetize. The work that they’re doing, followed up with over 30 different pharmacists’ entrepreneurs and stories. I think the passion we share for featuring pharmacist entrepreneurs and stories is the desire that we,  I see among pharmacists today, I’m interested in using my pharmacy degree and maybe what we call a nontraditional way. I don’t know exactly where to go and how to get started. I always say as we share more of these stories like we’re sharing yours here today. 

Maybe for some folks, they’re going to say, “Hey, I hear what Kimber is doing. I want to do something like that, or it sparks an idea.” But more than anything, it’s that idea creation and Genesis and just opening up the door of I had no idea. There’s all these pharmacists that are out there that all graduated with a pharmacy degree, and now they’re doing 34 different things in the case of the individuals that are featured in the book. So I think it helps folks to spark an idea, perhaps to get them thinking a different way, but it’s tangible, right? I think often you read about, “Hey, how can you monetize your income or side hustle or this or that?” 

Often folks are like, “Hey, that’s exciting, but I don’t really know where to get started.” That’s where the stories, that’s where examples of other pharmacists that are doing certain things and folks can say, “Oh, I’m a pharmacist in that setting, this is give me idea of how I might also be able to monetize the work that I’m doing or at least one place to get started.” So really well done, I think the introduction was brilliant the way that you wrote that. Then covering the business model the Pharmfluencer business models you mentioned, and then followed up with over 30 different pharmacists, entrepreneurs that are featured.

One of the things that you talk about in the book, and I want to dive a little bit deeper here as it relates to your own journey, as well as maybe what you saw as a theme or thread among those that were featured is the concept of the power of mindset. This has come up as a recurring theme of yes on this show. I want to just hear from you, Kimber, as you put together these 30-plus stories. Tell us more about the theme that you saw around mindset and why it was so influential in their own businesses and journeys.

[00:34:48] KB: Absolutely. It’s so important and I’m going to forget some of the great quotes on this topic, but what you think is what’s going to come to fruition, and it’s so important both with when we’re working as well as if we’re thinking about being an entrepreneur, because it’s it definitely can be very scary and it’s important that we think positive, we think boldly. Definitely, you mentioned abundance, a mindset before. That’s where we need to be in this a blue ocean mentality rather than read ocean. There’s a book about that where, again, there are so many needs and opportunities and there is space and need for everybody. We need to find that versus thinking that we’re all fighting for that same piece of the pie and it’s more of that restriction.

I focus on it here in the book. Definitely when I’m coaching people as well as in my courses, how important that is. I always try to support developing that and focusing on having a positive mindset and a critical way to develop that mindset is surrounding yourself with like-minded people. It’s important when you’re considering this journey that you do talk to people who have been there and done it, because it’s easy. I definitely experience this in my family. When you start talking about entrepreneurship and it’s like, oh, you’re going to behave your, you’re nice solid pharmacist paycheck to do something that’s this risky. Really, so you want to do that? It’s being around with other people. 

When I was actually at a retreat and everybody’s like, well, Kimber, you need to give your notice. You need to do this now. As soon as you get back from this retreat give your notice. I’m like well, well, let me – I was, I knew I was going to leave within a couple of years, and I didn’t want to leave right then, because it was pharmacists month, but soon after that, I did make the decision, and it was surrounding myself with these like-minded folks that helped me with my mindset about this, that I would be successful and to think about it. I do think one of the quotes I do have in the book is that it did say that, “Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. There’s not a thing to be waited for. It is a thing to be achieved.” 

I think those are quotes and mantras that I try to think about and repeat that helped me with my mindset as well as, like I said, surrounded myself with these wonderful pharmfluencers like yourself to motivate me as well as sometimes commiserate. We can have that positive mindset, but that doesn’t mean that bad things won’t happen. It’s more about how we approach it and how we react to it. That is the key part of the mindset and not just having that grit and resilience to move through any troubles that come up.

[00:38:03] TU: Yeah. Kimber, there’s something really powerful you said in the introduction that I think gives people a sneak peek into your mindset and the motivation behind your work. That was when you said, there’s something empowering about taking hold of one’s life and sharing that narrative with the world. I think for folks that have an idea and want to create something, you want to do something. Don’t underestimate the power that can come from that shift in mindset when you’re creating, your putting yourself out there. Yes, there’s fear. Yes, there’s risk that’s involved, but that’s a beautiful thing. When you start to see that you’re producing something that’s having a positive impact in other people’s lives. 

Kimber, I have a follow up on that. In addition to surround yourself with like-minded people, so important and there’s lots of different ways that folks can do that. You’ve created community that helps that as well. Are there one or two other things that you have found either personally or in coaching others, thinking of things can be morning routines or just a voracious hunger to be reading and learning, but are there one or two themes that you have found individually or in coaching others that really help in this shaping up mindset?

[00:39:11] KB: Yes. I mean, a lot of the things you mentioned are definitely important. That’s why I in the book I know I refer to it as having your inner circle and your network, so that is around that creating those connections. I do think that continuous development is an important part of that. Having a professional development plan that not only includes your subject matter expertize, but now also aspects of entrepreneurship. You don’t have to learn and know every aspect of it, because you can definitely hire and pay other people to do certain things. But expanding your development so that you are considering learning, right? This is now your business. You do need to spend some extra time and investment in that. 

Definitely having a coach I would say is probably the most important thing I have done for mindset through the years. Again, whether I had what I used to maybe refer to as an executive coach, maybe at one point a career coach and then more of an executive coach when I was in leadership positions. Now having a business coach, I think having a coach is critical. There’s four levels that I actually think about in terms of relationships. The first one is just networking. You’re like level one relationship building is like networking.

Everybody should have a networking plan and be strategic about it. Then people should have a mentor, somebody that’s more that you do meet with that’s within an area that’s related to your development. People should have a sponsor if they’re in an organization, so that’s the third level. A sponsor differs from a mentor usually, because they’re in a position of power. They can sponsor and advocate for you when certain positions come up. Then the fourth level of that relationship area that is critical is coaching. 

Some of the training I’ve done on coaching calls your coach, your paid best friend, but it is somebody who will challenge you beyond what you would maybe challenge yourself to do, but also see things in you that you may suppress or not be willing to acknowledge and bring out and move you through your fears to success. I would say again, definitely just having that inner circle related to your networking and your mentors doing your development, but then ultimately having a coach has been what’s been so important for me with my mindset.

[00:41:53] TU: Yeah. Well said. I would agree with that too. It took me a while to get around to the importance of making that investment about time and money, but it’s so important. I would just echo everything you said in terms of when I think about the impact that my coach has had on my overall mindset and it’s not just in those coaching sessions, right? I think when done well and when you are ready for the coaching, it’s the constant thought and dialog that’s going on, could be internally, it could be after coaching session, my wife Jess and I or a friend we’re digesting and following up on things, but it’s a continuous process that’s ongoing and it’s really, really fun to think about, what’s the next level? What’s the next level? Where else can I continue to grow and stretch myself? Often that means perhaps going into some areas that are uncomfortable as well.

[00:42:40] KB: It’s sometimes what my coach has also done is, in a way the opposite. It’s also a matter of making sure I do have balance and that’s it is a business. There’s a reason like you said, about what you talk to your clients about is, what is your goal here? Well, it’s not in most cases to work more hours than you are working at the pharmacy, but it is for some more freedom and maybe that’s not something that you expect maybe in your first few years of business. 

I know my coach also helps me with that to be realistic as well in terms of, am I prioritizing the most critical things and ensuring that I don’t burn out or put too many things on my plate. Or also definitely challenge me to make sure I’m outsourcing things, if it is definitely things that I can delegate. Definitely thinking new and balancing comes from a great coach.

[00:43:35] TU: Speaking of outsourcing, you talk about in the book that your biggest learning curve was being the transition from a solopreneur to hiring and filling positions, which I was surprised at, given your background in managing and leading teams. I would assume very, very comfortable with delegation, which may not always be the case for four folks. So talk to us more about why this was such a steep learning curve for you?

[00:43:58] KB: It is a good question. I still to this day, I think, I still have some trouble with it. I don’t know why, right? Like you said, I’ve hired hundreds of people. I’ve had teams of hundreds of people under me through a Matrix organization. It was — when you’re using your own money, I guess, and I guess like in some people, like bootstrapping, I didn’t take loans, the expenses for those first few years as a side hustle, I was losing money. Technically based on the investments I was making in my education, the website, some things, because it was on the side, I wasn’t bringing in a profit. So you think hiring is just going to mean more expense. But at the end of the day, and as I’ve learned from more entrepreneurs, the faster, and you can scale up through working with others that will usually get you to the finish line faster to become more profitable. 

I did have trouble seeing that early on. Then interestingly, even when I was hiring it was easier definitely to hire for specific tasks. If I needed a graphic designer, I needed a video editor. Those things seemed easier to hire for. Then I definitely had a mindset around my assistant, again where I was doing things myself and then hiring an assistant for 10 hours a week or 20 hours a week. It wasn’t until I did take a course actually on virtual assistants. It’s like, how can you scale yourself, right? Then put yourself as the CEO. Literally, that’s what they called this course that I took.

It was like, you’re the CEO of your business. You would not be the ones posting certain things or you would not be the one to create a web page. That would be somebody else if you were the true CEO of your business and thinking through that and moving to actually hiring somebody full time where just like I do talk about in our profession, you should be practicing at the top of your license. You should do the same in your business. Unless it’s something you absolutely are uniquely qualified, and only you can do it then you should be able to delegate or outsource that.

It is interesting where I feel like I still was not doing a great job was even on the hiring process. I was trying to work and wanted to just hire different agencies, who would get me an assistant. I’m like, I have hired lots of people, right? Why haven’t I converted to do that myself? So once I switched and did that and I actually hired myself and same thing I’m doing now with looking for subcontractor consultants is I can do the interview the same way I did before. I don’t know why I was treating it differently. There are definitely a lot of things that should crossover from intrapreneurship to entrepreneurship that for whatever reason I had a mental block about, but that is cleared now and moving more focus into making sure that it is a true business. I’m hiring a team just like I would have done when I was the chief pharmacy officer.

[00:47:21] TU: Great stuff, Kimber. I think that first one is very difficult. I think as time goes on it becomes a little bit easier as well, but appreciate the reflection. I would encourage again, folks to make sure they pick up a copy of Pharmfluencers: The Inspiring Stories of Pharmacy Entrepreneurs, over 30 pharmacy influencer entrepreneur stories. You can pick that up on Amazon or you can also pick that up by going to kimberboothe.com. Kimber, what’s the best place that folks can go to learn more about you and follow your journey?

[00:47:48] KB: Yeah, definitely coming to my website at kimberboothe.com, they can learn a little bit more about me. If you go to kimberboothe.com/links, you can get access to my various social media channels, as well as get the Free Pharmevader score to see what a pharmacy innovator you are. Basically, just get on my email list, so I can communicate with you more regularly when these different opportunities come up. Basically go to my website, kimberboothe.com or kimberboothe/links to get to all of my contact points.

[00:48:24] TU: Great. We’ll link to the website as well as LinkedIn and the books, we’ll link to all that in the show notes. Kimber, congratulations on, again the new book, your second book, the work that you’re doing, the impact that you’re having on the profession. Look forward to following your journey and thank you so much for coming on the show.

[00:48:39] KB: Thank you, Tim. Thanks for having me.

[OUTRO]

[00:48:41] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, let’s hear an important message from our sponsor, Insuring Income. If you are in the market to add own occupation disability insurance, term life insurance or both. Insuring Income would love to be a resource. Insuring Income has relationships with all of the high-quality disability insurance and life insurance carriers you should be considering and can help you design coverage to best protect you and your family.

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