September 2024 – Your Financial Pharmacist

YFP 376: From Student Debt to Financial Freedom: How Brandon Paid Off $160k

Posted on September 12, 2024September 9, 2024 by YFP Media

Brandon Gerleman, PharmD shares the strategy for how he paid off $160k of debt.

This episode is brought to you by APhA.

Episode Summary

Brandon Gerleman, a 2017 pharmacy graduate from the University of Iowa, shares his journey of paying off $160k of debt through not one, not two, but five refinances along the way. Brandon discusses his repayment strategy, why he decided for a more aggressive loan payoff, and what’s next for him and his family. He emphasizes the importance of living within your means, being aware of finances, and the impact of interest rates on repayment strategies. Brandon and his wife are now looking toward the future and he shares what other financial goals they are preparing for.

About Today’s Guest

Brandon Gerleman, PharmD is a 2017 graduate of the University of Iowa College of Pharmacy. He currently works as a Senior Product Manager on the Pharmacy Product Team at Outcomes, where he manages products to help pharmacists practice at the top of their training and provides tools to help drive pharmacy campaigns and increase efficiencies. After graduating in 2017 with $161,000 in student loan debt, he paid it off in May 2024. Brandon and his wife, Mariah, have 2 children and live in a rural community in Iowa. He enjoys spending time with his family, golfing, and watching Iowa Hawkeye football.

Key Points from the Episode

Brandon’s Passion for Personal Finance 1:36
Career Journey and Student Loan Debt 6:08
Refinancing Strategy and Financial Discipline 9:29
Balancing Financial Goals and Family Life 19:48
Future Financial Plans and Legacy 28:59

Episode Highlights

“Within that entire last seven years, though, I’ll say that we lived within our means, but we weren’t crunching pennies. We’re not in some fancy house. We’re within our means here. We still go on vacations with the kids. We still do fun things with the kids.” – Brandon Gerleman [20:59]

“For me and my wife, it was just like, how can we tackle the student debt and take that off our shoulders to then enable us to do more things? And it’s all about the family, and it was like trying to prepare for the future that way.” – Brandon Gerleman [21:38]

“At the end of the day, the math is the math, and we weren’t so aggressive, where we couldn’t do things. And we weren’t so passive, where the dollars kept loading on. So I think it was finding that right balance.” – Brandon Gerleman [22:34]

“We want to be able to live in the moment and celebrate and do things with our kids. I love the word intentional. Be very intentional about what we’re doing. We can still splurge on a Starbucks every now and then, right? You can still do things while living within your means and being intentional about how we’re how we’re approaching our student loan debt payoff.” – Brandon Gerleman [24:50]

“We’re always learning, I feel like the more aware we are around what’s happening. That’s why I was listening to all these Your Financial Pharmacist Podcasts back in pharmacy school, on fourth year rotations, and ever since, it’s just being aware. It’s always learning. It’s asking questions and trying to put ourselves in the best position for success.” -Brandon Gerleman [30:25]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody. Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, I welcome Brandon Gerleman onto the show, a 2017 pharmacy graduate from the University of Iowa and longtime listener of the YFP Podcast, to share his journey paying off $160,000 of debt through not one, not two, but five refinances along the way. We discuss his repayment strategy, why he decided for a more aggressive loan payoff, and what’s next for him and his family. Today’s episode of the YFP Podcast is brought to you by The American Pharmacists Association. APHA has partnered with YFP to deliver personalized financial education benefits for APHA members. Throughout the year, APHA will be hosting a number of exclusive webinars covering topics like student loan debt payoff strategies, home buying, investing, insurance needs and much more. Join APHA now to gain premier access to these educational resources and to receive discounts on YFP products and services. You can join APHA at a 25% discount by visiting pharmacist.com/join and using the coupon code YFP. Again, that’s coupon code YFP at pharmacist.com/join. All right, let’s jump into my debt free interview with Brandon Gerleman.

Tim Ulbrich 01:26

Brandon, welcome to the show.

Brandon Gerleman 01:28

Hey. What’s going on?

Tim Ulbrich 01:29

Super excited to have you on. It’s been a while since we’ve done a debt free story and celebration. So I’m certainly looking forward to that. And you and I connected back in 2023 although, as we discussed before the interview, we had some connections before that we weren’t necessarily aware of. And at the time, I saw a post that you shared on LinkedIn of a pharmacy personal finance talk that you were giving to Iowa pharmacy students. So let’s start there. Where does your passion for personal finance come from?

Brandon Gerleman 01:59

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Definitely comes from being aware, and that, you know, just being aware of your situation, and it kind of spurs from my parents really having that instilled, instilled that at a young age, and just being aware, you know, living within your means, having the ability to kind of see everything that that has come in and coming out, and yet again, just just that awareness issue and a little bit of that pharmacist, hey, I need to control a little bit of something here.

Tim Ulbrich 02:31

I love that. And you shared with me, you know, 2017, year you graduated, you were on APPE rotations, and you ran across the YFP podcast, which helped, in part, light a spark that you certainly took and ran with, and you’ve done the hard work, but I love that you’re now giving that back as well as you’re sharing with other students, and as you and I both know this is such a topic of interest and need among pharmacists at large, but certainly students and new practitioners. So thank you for your commitment to this topic, and as you continue to share the good news with students and others as well. Before we get into the weeds on your student loans and your Debt Free Journey, how you paid them off, why you paid them off, tell us about your career path, what led you into the profession, and what’s the work that you’ve been doing since graduating 2017.

Brandon Gerleman 03:18

Yeah, for sure. For sure. Graduated in 2017. Prior to even getting into pharmacy school. I live here in a small town of 5,000 folks here in South Central Iowa, and really that independent community pharmacist and seeing the impact on what they did to the community. That sounds super cliche. You probably hear that a lot. I’m sure pharmacists talk about that a bunch. But the pharmacist at the independent community pharmacy uptown, like they were the, know it all for anything. It was, you know, drug related, it was, you know, any ailment related. It was, when’s the next bus come in? I mean, it was any question, you know, community events like they were just that go to resource. And I just, I just admired that and thought, gosh, I just, I like talking to people, love science. I think this could be a really good fit. Started working there as a pharmacist, you know, technician, tech and training prior when I was an undergrad and just ran, ran from there and never looked back. So graduated from the University of Iowa College of Pharmacy in 2017 and immediately ran back home, right. Came back to my hometown and was overseeing a lot of the clinical operations within the small pharmacy chain that we had here. And that was a really nice, fulfilling, you know, giving back to the community. Being involved in the community; was there for about two and a half years, and really had the mindset of wanting to impact more than just 5,000 in my community. So made the transition over to Outcomes MTM, where I could really help impact millions upon millions of patients. Patients, and help them with outcomes for about five years now, so been there ever since, worn a number of different hats within outcomes, been on the clinical team, been on the payer product team, and most recently, I’m on the pharmacy product team. So I’ve got a little bit of a non traditional pathway, A, B, current position, so I’m a senior product manager, and I oversee all the clinical pharmacy products for Outcomes, and so that that that involves or brings in anything from looking at our collaborative practice agreements and being on the clinical lens to review those, to writing pharmacy sponsored opportunities on the outcomes platform, to also writing clinical workflows that enable the pharmacist to, you know, to practice at the top of their license and submit as a medical bill. So really, anything clinical in the pharmacy, in pharmacy land from outcomes I oversee, and I absolutely love it. I sit with software engineers every single day, and they’re a tremendous group of folks and provide that clinical lens on a lot of what we’re doing. And it’s a very fulfilling position, a need position, and the ability to not only impact patients, but to increase efficiencies and provide more tools for pharmacists to impact even more patients and truly get that fulfilling, that point of patient care, that great, we’re in a state we can do test and treat. But what does that mean? Where do I start? What do I do? You know, how can I decrease my my risk of, you know, DIR fees, you know, how can I practice, you know, practice at the top of my license. So it’s a fun, fun position that I’m at. And been there, been been there, five years, five years now.

Tim Ulbrich 06:48

Outcomes holds a special place for me, and I didn’t share this with you in advance, and I’m dating myself a little bit. And our listeners may not know this about my career path, but I graduated back in 2008 and I spent a year residency in community practice, and then my first job out of community practice was a shared academic role with the university up in Northeast Ohio. And then I was practice component was with a local community regional chain. Giant Eagle is the name of the chain, and we were implementing medication management services across the region. That was my job to go to various stores and help them think about the clinical workflows and how to embed this into patient care models. And it was a really exciting time, right? This wasn’t too long after the passage of the Medicare Modernization Act, and this was for us in Ohio, there was a huge Medicaid contract that landed, and through outcomes was really the ability that we had to do many of these services at the time, so just really fun memories and and really being able to help expand practice at the time. So feels like it’s coming full circle as you’re talking here and sharing your career journey as well.

Brandon Gerleman 07:55

Yeah, definitely it’s that next, that next chapter, right? And now we’re just, we’re beyond just traditional MTM, and now we’re trying to help pharmacists just do more on that same platform.

Tim Ulbrich 08:05

So let’s get into the student loans. Give us the juicy details. How much debt did you have when you graduated in 2017 and what was the average interest rate on your debt at the time?

Brandon Gerleman 08:17

Yeah, did some math here, and kind of added things up. And I still have, when I first graduated, just kind of memory of seeing the number in my head there. But just shy $161,000 in student loan debt from both undergrad and grad and pharmacy school. So I’ve got twoundergrad degrees. I went the four and four route, and they averaged across all of them about 6.75% so remember, just graduated and be like, Oh, that’s a kind of a tough pill to swallow.

Tim Ulbrich 08:51

Yeah. And as you and I were talking about before we hit record, you know, the the interest rate matters a lot, and we’ll talk about how that played into your repayment journey. Unfortunately, we’re seeing those rates – I graduated again, 2008 6.8% a lot of my loans were fixed. You mentioned in the six, sevens. We’re actually seeing now rates on those unsubsidized graduate loans, you know, north of 8% so those are tough interest rates. We talk a lot about the number right, 161, 170, 180, 190. And actually the the average debt load is, we just got the latest data from the class of 2024, hovering around that hovering around that $170k mark still. So it has flattened off over the last several years. But we don’t give enough attention to the interest rate, and I think that’s going to come to life as we talk about your repayment strategy, because for you, as I understand it, it was refinancing your loans, not once, not twice, but five times, ultimately, getting your rate down to 2.24% now, before our listeners, you know, are just like, what in the world, those interest rates don’t exist today, right? So talk us through that decision to refinance. What was it primarily or only based? Based on that 2.24% because there are some considerations, right? When people take their loans from the federal system to a private lender, which is what you’re doing through a process of refinance, there are some things that you might be giving up. Oh, and by the way, when something like a global pandemic happens and there’s a freeze on interest and no payments are required, right, that was something we never could have seen coming as a potential negative impact and consequence of refinancing. So tell us about that decision to refinance and how you ultimately got to the point that that was the best plan for you.

Brandon Gerleman 10:33

Yeah, yeah. Definitely didn’t have global pandemic and halt on student loan payments in my in my Uno cards there. But yeah, for me, it was the aspect of I knew I was never going to, I shouldn’t say never, never say that you never know where the career is going to take you. But highly unlikely for me to go to a another career that kept me in that student loan forgiveness within the federal sector there. So knowing that it just came down to math, and at the end of the day, it wasn’t a jump from 6.75% directly to 2.24% it was refinancing. And I would just always got in the habit of, every three months checking, and I actually always go on on Your Financial Pharmacist and go over to see what deals were going on, right? You know what was the bonus for refinancing? What were the rates at playing around? And never, you know, never hurt your credit score by checking. And you don’t know what you don’t know. And so I would just continue to chip chip, chip away, and eventually got that down to that 2.24% with that auto pay, you know, the rate reduction there by a quarter percent. But it just came down to math. And at the end of the day, what we’re doing is, is math here. And I hate to pay in interest, oh my gosh, just to think that I’m like, giving, like, somebody giving money, and I’m paying them back, and the interest payments are, you know, what’s killing you. I just wanted to that was just a fire in the belly. Wanted to reduce that as much as possible.

Tim Ulbrich 12:05

Yeah, you know, I gave a presentation just a couple weeks ago to a group of student pharmacists, and I walked them through how interest accumulates, right? Because when we’re talking about unsubsidized loans, which you know for most pharmacy students, that’s going to be all of your federal student loans. When it comes to your pharmacy education, there’s the principal, which is the original amount that you’re borrowing, and then there’s the interest which accrues while you’re in school. I often say, Well, when I’m presenting, hey, not to scare you, but while we’re sitting here, the interest is accruing, right? That’s just a matter of fact. And then when you get an active repayment, that separate pot of interest gets added to your principal, and that grows interest. What I say is baby interest, which is referred to as capitalization. So the result of that, why that matters, is that most borrowers, myself, included my own journeys, you vastly underestimate how much you’re actually going to pay off when it’s all said and done, because you’re looking at as a pharmacy student saying, okay, you know, I’m borrowing 15, $20,000 a semester. I’ve got so many semesters, that’s the number, right? And what we’re leaving out there is the interest that accumulates in school, and then the interest that accumulates all the while in the repayment period as well. So such an important lesson, whether we’re talking about student loans, credit card debt, mortgage, car loans, anytime you’re borrowing, right? Interest is the cost of borrowing anytime a bank is lending someone money that that’s a risk they’re taking, and obviously you’re going to pay for that in the form of interest. We have to understand how that interest accumulates and how we feel as well, which is an important one that you mentioned in terms of your hate of that interest. I also want to highlight Brandon, you said something important, which I don’t want to overlook for our listeners that are thinking about their own situation. You said, Hey, I first determined that something like Public Service Loan Forgiveness wasn’t going to be my pathway. Once I made that decision, it really came down to a math, the math. And I want to highlight that, because that’s how I think about it, in terms of a decision tree, right? If there is a pathway to be considered, and it makes sense. And there’s some pros, cons, things that we gotta factor in before you ultimately make that decision. Let’s have that discussion first, if that is not a possibility, then we’re looking at, how do we maximize our repayment options and strategies? And for some people, that might be a refinance. Now, Brandon, I know our listeners are listening to say, is anybody refinancing anymore, right? Given where interest rates are at, and the answer is, actually there are, it’s certainly not anywhere to the point of what you did when you got this all the way down to the low twos. We saw that right before the pandemic. A lot of people, flurry of activity into refinancing below threes. You know, that has largely gone away for the most part, but there are many people out there who have existing private loans that may be at eight, 9, 10, 11, 12, plus percent, which is crazy to say out loud, that certainly should be considering whether or not they can move that private loan and get a better deal on that. So I just want to kind of pause for a moment and make sure we address that. So when you look at the math, clearly, you know, 6.7% down 2.24%. That looks good. What did that actually mean in terms of how much time that took off the repayment period?

Brandon Gerleman 15:11

Oh, I should have written this down! Every single time I would use the some of the calculators that that are on the Your Financial Pharmacist website and and every time I would, you know, crunch it. If I’m here, here’s where I’m at, bringing it down, here’s where I’m at. I have to dig in there. But I know it was of the 10s of 1000s of dollars, and then as far as a time, I think that’s where, that’s where I compounded and snowballed things. So like my wife and I were incredibly comfortable paying when I first graduated this, you know, unsightly amount that was more than our house payment and and thinking, Okay, well, if we’re comfortable paying that, we’re going to refinance from, you know, from A to B, and that reduced my interest rate. Well, I’m going to continue to pay that because out of sight, out of mind, but I’m going to add that extra because my payment went down. My monthly payment went down. I’m going to add that extra as principal only. And so by the time you did that five times you’re you’re knocking it down. It is dollars that you’re not even used to seeing because you haven’t seen it yet that are just snowballing toward that principle. And then every time I would refinance, I’d play around with the calculators as well. Can I, you know, decrease the duration, you know, of my student loan as well? And the last one that we did in 2021 that got me to that 2.24 I also cut it from at that point would have been seven years down to five years. And so that also helped me, you know, really snowball. And then I’ll say that anytime we had a, you know, a tax return, or any, you know, any type of dollars that we felt, hey, let’s, let’s start throwing, throwing additional dollars that way. We throw it as a lump sum, and we’d, we chase it, you know, chase a traditional payment with a principal only. Payments would only go toward that principal, and that was, you know, the combination of refinancing, reducing that, the length of that loan, continuing to pay what we were used to paying, and have it go to our principal, and then the lump sums, kind of, you know, along the way doesn’t have to be much. Can be 500 bucks. This one month can be, you know, $1,000 you know, this other month can just be adding on. Hey, let’s, you know, just add on a little bit. Add 20 bucks a month toward principal. Those small things added up where all of a sudden you became much more manageable. And every time I was very aware, I’ve said that a couple times, I’m very aware, I would always be checking, you know, you know, what’s the balance? Now, you wouldn’t check every single day. That would just drive about, you know, a person crazy. But you know, as you’re checking, then you’re noticing that your payments going more towards principal and less toward interest and and then you can start breathing a little bit, right? And then there, you know, there’s that light at the end of the tunnel and that snowball. And just continue to snowball and snowball and snowball.

Tim Ulbrich 17:58

Yeah, what I hear there is momentum and energy that is coming, which, which is really defined by that snowball approach. And we’ll talk a little bit more about that. But you know, often people will refinance to potentially save on a monthly payment, and then that frees up cash flow to do other things, no right or wrong there. That’s just an option that people choose. Others kind of take the approach you did, which is, hey, we’re going to refinance, get a lower rate, but since we’re used to this monthly payment, even though we only have to now pay 1100 bucks a month, but we’re used to paying 1500 or whatever the number is, let’s keep paying 1500 we’re going to make these principal only payments, and by doing that, we’re going to jump down the amortization table, right? And for those of you that haven’t geeked out on an amortization table, it’s important to understand these things. Again, it’s not just student loans, it’s house payments, car payments, any other type of debt. To really understand what percentage of your payment is going toward principal, what percentage of your payment is going towards interest, and after you make that payment, what’s the balance due? Oh, and by the way, if we make an extra payment, what does that mean, right, in terms of where we’re at, and so depending on your goals, what you’re trying to achieve, interest rates, all these factors are going to determine how aggressive you may or may not be in that debt repayment to that point. And you mentioned Brandon that you know, when you first started, you were paying this unsightly amount. I remember that feeling very well, and that for you, it’s Hey, I hate interest these need to be gone as quick as possible, as what I’m gathering from you, and that’s a decision point that people have to decide, right? We talked about the first branch of the decision tree, which was, Hey, are you going to pursue loan forgiveness or not? If not, then it’s a mathematical decision. Now, once you go to the next decision point, it is, how quickly do I want these gone? And what does that mean for our monthly cash flow and potentially being able to do X, Y or Z. That could be a myriad of things, right? It could be that, hey, we’re looking to save up for a home. We’re looking to buy a second investment property. We want to invest in more in our retirement. We want to have experiences. We got kids on the way. There’s a million other goals that could be coming. But ultimately, you decided that, sure. Or more cash flow would be nice, but we want these gone, you know, tomorrow. And so how did you and your wife get to that decision, that despite the rate arguably being pretty darn low when you get to that point, 2.24 and even before that pretty low, that even though those rates were coming down, you really wanted to go that aggressive repayment. What was the philosophy behind that for you guys?

Brandon Gerleman 20:20

Yeah, yeah. Great, great question. I would say it wasn’t hard to not even going to use the word convince. My wife is already on the same page. So just more of demonstrating, showing the math, and saying, you know, by doing this, you know, semi aggressive plan, instead of being done in 2027 we can be done in 2024 so that freed up, you know, three years of more than our house payment worth of student loans that then will allow us to do more things. And so I’ve got two young kids under the age of four. And, you know, now all of sudden we can, we can go out and we can maybe do something. And, you know, go on a vacation here, and within that entire last seven years, though, I’ll say that we lived within our means, but we weren’t crunching pennies. We’re not in some fancy, fancy house. We’re within our means here. We still go on vacations with the kids. We still do fun things with the kids. Went and saw Caitlin Clark play in Minnesota last week, right? So, yeah, you know, so we’re, it’s from, for me and my wife, it was just like, how can we tackle the student debt and take that and just, you know, a big relief off our shoulders to then enable us to do more things? And it’s all about the family, and it was like trying to prep for the for the future that way. Also say that the snowball doesn’t doesn’t just stop with with my student loans. We We’ve now taken what we’re used to paying for my student loans, and we’re snowballing into other things, a truck payment. My wife student loans are almost done, you know, yeah, so, like, by the end of 2024 you know, really being able to breathe. And then you know that that allows you, and I’m sure I’m leading on to the next question. You know that that allows a person to do a little bit more. And now I can start putting dollars for a 529, plan for, you know, for the kids. And I can start, you know, and add a little bit more in the 401K, which can then reduce my, you know, my taxable income. So there’s other things that that that we can consider while, you know, we have a, you know, freed up a little bit of monthly cash, you know, when it comes to looking at the cash in and out, but it’s really having that supportive spouse who, at the end of the day, the math is the math, and we weren’t so aggressive, where we couldn’t do things, we weren’t. So, you know, passive, where the, you know, the dollars kept, kept loading on. So I think it was finding that that right balance,

Tim Ulbrich 22:49

I suspect that balance was really important for the two of you to get on the same page. And it’s something I see often. It was true in our own journey as well, that, I think, where people run into some issues, especially if you have two different money belief systems. And I’m not suggesting that was the case here, but when that is the case, you know, when one person’s like, hey, we want to go all in and I want these gone tomorrow, and we’re not going to do anything. Like, obviously, there’s going to be friction there, right? And I think we often have this perception of, hey, I would love to be debt free, like Brandon’s debt free, but I’m not willing to sacrifice everything. And what I hear you saying is like, Hey, we’ve lived within our means. We’ve done hard work. I’m not going to minimize that. We’ve been intentional, but we haven’t been, you know, to the point where we’re not also enjoying things and living this rich life that we so often talk about on the show. And what I often see, and I’m confident I will see here as well, is that when someone is as intentional as you have been, and you and your wife have been for for as long as you’ve been, then when you go to the next decision point, when your wife’s loans are done, and you’re like, hey, we were putting x per month between our loans. Now what? That’s the question. Now, what? Right this money isn’t going to go off into the ether and you’re going to be like, what happened? We used to pay loans, and now we don’t know where that money went. Like, you’re going to be intentional about, hey, it’s the 529 account. Maybe it’s putting a little bit more towards investing for retirement. Maybe it’s being intentional if we’re going to take another vacation a year or, you know, do whatever it means for you guys to be living the rich life. So I love that, and I think we don’t talk often enough about that that there are benefits that come long term from how we approach our decision making and how we live today, that even when the debt’s gone, you’re gonna see the fruit of that well beyond that.

Brandon Gerleman 24:35

Definitely. And you know, I’ve seen other folks that have been on your podcast that have paid off way more in a shorter amount of time. And I think that is phenomenal. It’s kind of driving your own, you know, your own why? And for me, it was in my wife. It was like we want to be able to live in the moment and celebrate and do things with our kids. And as you know, before we had kids as a couple, but also be and I love the word intentional. Be very intentional about what we’re doing. You know, we can still splurge on a Starbucks every now and then, right? You know, you can still do things while living within your means and being intentional about how we’re how we’re approaching our student loan debt payoff.

Tim Ulbrich 25:15

As you and your wife look towards that finish line of her loans coming in the not so distant future, and obviously, as aggressive as you’ve been there, there’s going to be some cash flow available, which is exciting. And you’ve, in part, answered this. You mentioned the kids college savings of 529, accounts. I’ve heard kind of the family experience aspect of it as well. What else? What else is? Is a priority for you guys as you look towards, say, the next decade or so?

Brandon Gerleman 25:42

Man, hard to look past the next decade. When you’ve got two kids running around, doing everything every single week, there’s something new! I would say, you know, free enough to be able to start investing more, right? So because, I’m because we were so intentional about paying down debt, we weren’t as heavy on on investing. And so I would say, you know, investing personally, as well as investing in my children’s future with, you know, 529 plans. I’m that’s probably my biggest thing is, like paying it forward. I will say, here’s the nice little asterisk that I’ll throw with my 161,000 in student loan debt, my folks took care of my undergrad. So that includes, you know, around just shy or about $35,000 out of that $160k my mom and dad were very intentional to pay off for my twin sister and I, to allow us to then kind of pay it forward. So I’m really looking forward to being able to pay it, forward to my to my children. So I’d say, you know, between 529 some investing, some decreasing my taxable income, as well as saving for retirement. And then I, I think the biggest thing is, like taking a breath and just saying, Hey, we did it. Let’s just kind of, you know, relax, enjoy it for a little bit and and really enjoy the family and start doing more things and really getting those, those family experiences involved. We’re not anytime we’re doing presents for kids or anything we’re not big on, like a product or an item, like, for all those that are parents out there, Tim, yourself, included, like, man, like you, for you, the kid forgets about it maybe in two weeks, or plays with the box instead, right? Or and so those are replaceable, the the memories and the experiences are what we’re really trying to pass on, I think that’ll allow us to do a little bit more, you know, travel, and just be even more involved with our kids.

Tim Ulbrich 27:38

I love to hear that Brandon, and I’m intentionally asking the question, you know, to encourage our listeners to be thinking about this as well, and to encourage you and your wife to continue these conversations as well, because they’re so important, right? You’ve done incredible hard work with the student loan debt. You’re going to do great work with saving but, but there’s a bigger story here, right? And that’s what I’m asking about, because there will be a day. I call it the rocking chair exercise. There will be a day when I look back, when you look back and, you know, yeah, oh yeah. Remember, we paid off all that debt, yeah, we did that. You know, remember when we got to the point of financial independence because we saved for the future, and we don’t have our mortgage anymore, and our kids are taking care of, yeah, yeah, we did that. What do we remember, right? What’s the So, what? What’s the vision? What’s the engine behind all of this? And at the end of the day, money is a tool. Money has value because we all agree it has value, and as long as that’s true, it will have value, but it’s what we’re able to do with that money. And getting clear with that no right or wrong answer is really what this whole financial plan is about. So I hear a strong why of family experiences. You know, that’s something I often hear when I ask this question. You know, for other people, it might be a dream they have of starting a business, or it might be, you know, some type of giving aspect of time, reminding you’re having an option to work part time. Or it could be a myriad of things, and really getting clear on that, I think, for those that are listening, that are in the middle of the weeds of going through a journey like this. You know, it’s not a hey, I’ll think about that tomorrow. It’s, let’s think about this now, because that’s going to propel and give us some motivation while we’re in the midst of this journey. And we don’t want to wait till we get to the finish line, because this is something we constantly want to ignite the fire in the flame with. And for those that are doing this with a significant other, partner, spouse, so important, so important. We’re having these conversations because all the strategy is somewhat noise. If we aren’t clear on where are we going or why are we going there? And that really, I think, is where we see so much of the joy come and the opportunity. So I love what you shared there, Brandon, I’m so excited to see where you and your wife go into the future, and congratulations on the success that you’ve had so far.

Brandon Gerleman 29:43

Very much appreciate that. And I will say one more thing, and that is, you know, nobody pretends to be an expert in this area, right? We’re always learning. And so even myself, as I’m going through this last year, learned about, you know, a. 529 you know, Secure Act. And then I was able to, you know, throw some dollars toward that, a 529 plan over last year and this year, that even helped me from a tax benefit that I knew I was going to pay them off this year. So I might as well throw it in an account that I can kind of shelter a little bit through taxes. Had no clue about that. I was just kind of over a beer, discussing with with another colleague, and it’s like, Wait a minute. So I just just want to throw that out there that, you know, we’re always learning, I feel like the more aware we are around what’s happening. You know, that’s why I was listening to all these Your Financial Pharmacist Podcasts back in in pharmacy school, on fourth year rotations, and ever since, it’s, it’s just, it’s being aware. It’s always learning. It’s asking questions and just, you know, trying to, trying to put ourselves in the best position for success, for whatever that why is

Tim Ulbrich 30:50

What I hear there is a curiosity, a desire to learn and grow. I love that example, right? Because there’s a state tax deduction that you’re talking about from a 529 to be able to pay off your loans, and that was opened up, you know, others might be using it to pay for kids private education, you know, K through 12. That’s a relatively new thing as well. And some people might hear that and be like, Well, what actually is the dollar savings, right? And sure, you know, we could look at that and say, you know, are we talking 1000s and 1000s of dollars? No we’re not, but it’s, it’s an important example, because it’s an indication of the curiosity you have, the desire to learn, to grow. And as I often say, there is no arrive at the financial plan, as long as we are hungry to learn and grow and be open to different ideas and strategies and figure out what’s best for our plan, right? There is an infinite number of possibilities for where we could go. So that is such a cool example of what comes from from compounded learning over time. So Brandon, thanks so much for taking time, time to come on the show again. Congratulations to you and your wife. Look forward to following your journey as well into the future.

Brandon Gerleman 31:49

I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.

Tim Ulbrich 31:51

Before we wrap up today’s episode of The Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. I want to again thank our sponsor, the American Pharmacist Association. APHA, is every pharmacist ally advocating on your behalf for better working conditions, fair PBM practices and more opportunities for pharmacists to provide care. Make sure to join a bolder APHA to gain premier access to financial educational resources and to receive discounts on YFP products and services. You can join APHA at a 25% discount by visiting pharmacist.com/join and using the coupon code YFP. Again, that’s pharmacist.com/join using the coupon code YFP.

Tim Ulbrich 32:33

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyzes expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 375: Breaking New Ground: Emmanuel Ayanjoke’s Vision for Altev Community Pharmacy

Posted on September 5, 2024September 2, 2024 by YFP Media

Tim Ulbrich interviews Emmanuel Ayanjoke, PharmD, on his journey to opening an independent pharmacy in Avondale, tackling challenges with vision, risk-taking, and community care.

This episode is brought to you by First Horizon.

Episode Summary

In this inspiring episode, Tim Ulbrich interviews Emmanuel Ayanjoke, R.Ph, PharmD, MBA, a third-generation pharmacist with a passion for community care. Emmanuel shares his remarkable journey to opening an independent pharmacy in Avondale, Cincinnati. Driven by a desire to make a difference, he pursued a pain management and palliative care fellowship, gaining invaluable entrepreneurial experience along the way. Through the support of Project Oasis, a McKesson initiative aimed at addressing pharmacy deserts, Emmanuel was able to turn his vision into reality.

Despite facing significant financial challenges, including high student loan debt, Emmanuel underscores the importance of calculated risk-taking and the power of strong relationships. Emmanuel offers insights into the future of independent pharmacy and how he has strategically aligned his personal and business financial plans to achieve his goals. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the evolving landscape of independent pharmacy and the bold steps required to succeed.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Emmanuel (Manny) Ayanjoke, R.Ph, PharmD, MBA is the proud owner of Altev Community Pharmacy in Cincinnati, Ohio. A graduate of University of Toledo College of Pharmacy, Dr. Manny has spent over 5 years serving various communities as a dedicated pharmacist. Before opening Altev, he worked at Ziks Family Pharmacy, honing his skills, and understanding the vital role of pharmacists in community health. His work as a clinical pharmacist at Ziks had notable success and he was featured as a keynote panelist at the American Pharmacist Association (APhA) 2022 conference. Alongside his clinical role at ZIKS Family Pharmacy, Dr Manny completed a fellowship in pain management and palliative care fellow at Cedarville University where he engaged in teaching, research, patient care, as well as creation of innovative ways to advance pharmacy practice.

Key Points from the Episode

Opening Remarks and Sponsor Introduction [0:00]
Emmanuel’s Career Path and Family Background [2:28]
Pursuing a Fellowship and Entrepreneurial Vision [4:58]
The Decision to Open a Pharmacy [10:45]
Challenges and Support in Opening a Pharmacy [19:51]
Intersection of Personal and Business Finances [27:30]

Episode Highlights

“I wanted to pursue something that allowed me to be an entrepreneur in some way; I knew it had to be something that would leverage my school as a pharmacist, and with my experience, I was like, well, in every other you know, area of pharmacy practice, they’re already really the people that are dominating. I want to sort of create my own niche.” – Dr. Emmanuel Ayanjoke [5:53]

“I wanted to sort of carve out a niche for myself in pain management, to be able to be an entrepreneur, be a consultant, pharmacist, and do all these things until the point that I was able to actually stop my pharmacy so it was still in line with my overall vision of being an entrepreneur and being able to self, direct, direct my destiny, and not, you know, be beholden to a paycheck.” – Dr. Emmanuel Ayanjoke [6:24]

“I think your biggest asset to success, for anyone, any successful person, is people.” – Dr. Emmanuel Ayanjoke [20:43]

“I’m not saying this because I’m anywhere yet, but I’m saying this because I’ve seen other people, and I learned from a lot of people, but what I found is people that tend to be successful often go against the grain, go against what the crowd typically does.” – Dr. Emmanuel Ayanjoke [23:17]

“My vision and the way I see things and my general approach to life and business is sort of like planting trees, right? And what I mean by that is, yes, you might not have the perfect nutrients for a tree that’s several feet high, but you can at least plant something for now. And that that is kind of has been my approach to everything. You might not feel like you have the financial capacity to do certain things, it’s still important to plant the tree. – Dr. Emmanuel Ayanjoke [28:37]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody. Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, I sit down with Emmanuel Ayanjoke to discuss his decision to open an independent pharmacy as a new practitioner, his perspective on the future of independent pharmacy and the intersection of his personal and business financial plans. Let’s hear a note from today’s sponsor, First Horizon, and then we’ll jump into my interview with the Emmanuel.

Tim Ulbrich 00:29

Does saving 20% for a down payment on a home feel like an uphill battle? It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high student loan debt, meaning that saving 20% for a down payment on a home may take years. For several years now, we’ve been partnering with First Horizon, who offers a professional home loan option, AKA a doctor or pharmacist loan that requires a 3% down payment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers, has no PMI and offers a 30 year fixed rate mortgage on home loans up to $766,550 in most areas. The pharmacist home loan is available in all states except Alaska and Hawaii, and can be used to purchase condos as well, however, rates may be higher and a condo review has to be completed. While I’ve personally worked with First Horizon before and had a great experience with Tony and his team, don’t just take it from me. Here’s what Molly from New Berlin, Wisconsin, had to say about her experience with First Horizon: “The communication and always being available to talk over the phone was great for us. It also made an impact getting an initial overview and education on the process from Gail. Being able to submit everything electronically made it more efficient.” So if you want to check out the requirements for pharmacists Home Loan from First Horizon and to start the pre-approval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist./home-loan.harmacist.com/home-loan.

Tim Ulbrich 01:58

Emmanuel, welcome to the show.

Emmanuel Ayanjoke 02:00

Thank you, Tim. I’m delighted to be here today.

Tim Ulbrich 02:03

Me as well, and I’m looking forward to the opportunity to talk to you about your experiences opening up in independent pharmacy. We crossed paths through the Ohio pharmacy circles over the past few years, and once you announced the grand opening of your store, Altev Community Pharmacy and the Avondale, Cincinnati area, I reached out to invite you on the show so we can learn more about your entrepreneurial journey. And before we get into that, let’s talk about your career path into pharmacy, Emmanuel, what led you into the profession and to the University of Toledo, where you completed your PharmD in 2020

Emmanuel Ayanjoke 02:38

Absolutely. So I, you know, I’m Nigerian. Grew up in Nigeria. That was born in Nigeria, till I was I grew up left Niger when I was about 15 years old, and I was fortunate enough to grow up in the family of that pharmacy is a thing. So my dad was a pharmacist and a pharmacy owner, and his dad was a pharmacy, pharmacy owner. Now, back then, they refer to them as chemists, because this was way back then in the days, but they were, you know, I come from a long line of pharmacists, and I would never forget when I was about seven years old, because I think that’s the age where everyone kind of starts to pick up on things. And, you know, observe our parents doing different things, and I remember so vividly, so many moments where patients will just come in. And, you know, one of the things I always like to say is pharmacists. Pharmacy in Niger is very different than here. Pharmacy is much more front line of healthcare. You went to the pharmacy first before going to the doctor, they actually the pharmacist referred you to the doctor in things that were too complex to be handled in outpatient. So I grew up in that setting, seeing my dad as a pharmacist, business owner, taking care of his family, but also taking care of the community. And people just come into the pharmacy asking questions, having their needs, health needs met. You know, it was a different way to impact people’s lives, and that resonated with me very deeply. I, you know, grew up in that environment that I knew I wanted to direct my own destiny and own a business. And what dawned on me over the years is what’s more important in owning businesses, doing something that impacts lives. So put it short, I’ve always been in pharmacy. I grew up in a pharmacy, and I didn’t see myself doing anything else, because that was what was just in front of me.

Tim Ulbrich 04:33

So third generation chemist, then, right?

Emmanuel Ayanjoke 04:36

Yes.

Tim Ulbrich 04:38

So after you finished your PharmD at the University of Toledo, you went on to pursue a pain management and palliative care fellowship. And some might be looking at that and saying, All right, so you grew up in a pharmacy environment, independent ownership, owning your own business. And this seems like a different type of an opportunity. So tell us more about the pursuit of that fellowship, and what were some of the experiences and things that you took away from that?

Emmanuel Ayanjoke 05:04

Yeah, so the reason why I went to pursue a fellowship was at the time when I was in Toledo, I was an intern, and I because I knew I wanted to own a pharmacy at some point, I decided to only work in an independent pharmacy, and that so me served me really great, because I started to experience first clients, what it took to run a business, run a pharmacy business in the United States. And I was fortunate enough to have a great pharmacy owner who showed me so many things. But you know, unfortunately, what that did to me was kind of give me a very bad perspective of how pharmacy should what pharmacy is. And I thought that, well, pharmacy is what I want to end up doing, but I don’t think it’s the time. I don’t think it’s the right time. But knowing that I wanted to pursue something that allowed me to be an entrepreneur in some way, I knew it had to be something that would leverage my school as a pharmacist, and, you know, with my experience, I was like, well, in every other you know, area of pharmacy practice, they’re already really the people that are, you know, dominating. I want to sort of create my own niche. I don’t like to follow the general trends and what people do, you know, go to AMK and those things, and those things are great, and I do a lot of that, and I did a lot of that in my career so far, but I wanted to sort of carve out a niche for myself in pain management, to be able to be an entrepreneur, be a consultant, pharmacist, and do all these things until the point that I was able to actually stop my pharmacy so it was still In line with my overall vision of being an entrepreneur and being able to self, direct, direct my destiny, and not, you know, be beholden to a paycheck. I just that idea just just doesn’t sit well with me, so that, that was why I pursued the fellowship, and was a great, great experience for me.

Tim Ulbrich 06:58

So what I hear there, Emmanuel, is there was this throughline of entrepreneurship that’s always been there, not surprising, right? Multiple generations in the family. And so you had this thought pretty early on, of, hey, I would like to own my own business, own pharmacy. Had some real life experience in independent pharmacy working for someone else, which I always recommend people that are thinking about, Hey, open up a business, get that experience, kind of see it firsthand, see what you like, what you don’t like. But through that experience, it sounds like you you butted up against the real challenges that we’ll talk about, you know, in the profession, and maybe that tampered down some of that interest, at least temporarily. And so you pursued this other pathway all the while, this through line of entrepreneurship, was there of, hey, I’m not sure exactly what it’s going to look like or when it’s going to happen, but I want to continue to pursue opportunities that are going to put me in a position in the future when I’m ready. Is that right?

Emmanuel Ayanjoke 07:49

Yep, that’s perfectly that’s that’s accurate. That’s exactly what happened.

Tim Ulbrich 07:53

One thing you said I’d love to hear more from you on is, you know, I knew that I didn’t want to be beholden to a paycheck. I sensed some emotion in that statement of just, you know, I know myself, right? I know that that’s not for me. Tell us more about you know that realization and why that was important to you?

Emmanuel Ayanjoke 08:12

Yeah, I think that realization has always been there in the one thing I didn’t also say was, my mom was also an entrepreneur. She had her home business, and she, you know, used to run convenience stores and couple gas stations back at home then. So I knew for a fact that, you know, that that’s just what I wanted to do. But, but one of the things that I’ve also learned about the system of America is the reality that, unfortunately, those who you know pay for everything is the middle class. And when I say middle class is those you know who are professionals, and you know, you’re hit with so much taxes and so many there’s so many downsides to being a W2 earner. So I realized that real, that part, but also the quite honest reality is that you’re never paid what you’re worth as a W2 earner. That’s just a reality down. There’s no two ways around it. If you were paid your worth, no one would create companies, right?

Tim Ulbrich 09:15

It wouldn’t make any sense.

Emmanuel Ayanjoke 09:17

Yeah, it wouldn’t make any sense, right? So I just didn’t like that idea. I felt like there was a lot more I need to do in this world than to have my, you know, my impact kept by being by working at a place. But that’s just what drives me, you know, again, it’s okay for most people, and that’s, that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong about it. I just didn’t, I don’t think that aligns with me, internally and throughout my life experiences.

Tim Ulbrich 09:43

Yeah, it’s interesting. And we’ll talk about the challenges of owning your own business. You know it’s real. I know it’s real. There are highs, there are lows, but it certainly does take off the ceiling. It also takes off the floor, right in terms of, you know what could go wrong, but you know what you’re sharing is very real. There’s no knock whatsoever to the path of a W2 you know, for many people, that is what makes the most sense, for a variety of reasons, but it is a reality that in the US, from a tax standpoint, the tax code is very much written in favor of people that own a business and own real estate. Those are really two things. And you know, it’s interesting we think about a lot of independent pharmacy owners, despite the challenges. You know, they’re really tapping into both of those things, and I can really sense how it was important you have that autonomy to be able to pursue not only the decision making in the business, but also to have some of the financial upside flexibility. But I want people to hear this loud and clear, like there is real downside as well when it comes to owning the business. And both must be considered, and we’ll talk about that here in a little bit. So take us back then you open the doors of the pharmacy in the Avondale, Cincinnati area in April of this year. And so at some point, you know, while you might have temporarily went away from Hey, I’m ready to open my pharmacy, it came back, right. So what was the moment where you said, All right, I’m ready to do this. And what led, what was the spark to really get into that place of alright, let’s go.

Emmanuel Ayanjoke 11:11

Yeah. So this was in 2022 which feels like last year, but two years ago, when I was in the middle of my fellowship, and I, you know, one of the things I value is network and having people around you that always look out for you. That is the value of that has just been immense in my life. But, you know, I was in my fellowship at the time, I was working part time, sort of, I mean, I wasn’t the official pharmacy manager, but I was basically the manager at the independent pharmacy that I worked at. So I was quite busy, you know, being the fellowship, doing research, and doing all these different things, and still fully commit, you know, helping out at the retail pharmacy. And I remember it was Stu Beatty, actually, from OPA.

Tim Ulbrich 12:04

Oh, no way.

Emmanuel Ayanjoke 12:06

Yeah, yes, yeah. He sent me the flyer to Project Oasis, which is the program that I got the opportunity to open the pharmacy through. And I started to learn about it. And initially I brushed it down. I was like, Well, this is some national program. There’s no chance that I’ll even get anywhere close to this. And I sort of didn’t even, you know, want to, I knew that’s what I wanted to do, but I really didn’t think I would get anywhere. And then, you know, two weeks later or so, Antonio Ciaccio who have gone to me, you know, through different experiences, and we’ve connected very well, he’s forwarded that same flyer to me, saying, Hey, I think you’d be a good candidate. I think you should apply to this. I was like, Oh, my so I guess the stars are aligned, and everyone thinks that I’m, you know, I tend to think of myself more humbly, and I didn’t think I would get anywhere. But you know, was these two folks that believed in me and encouraged me to go out and apply, and I took on the process and started doing my due diligence, drawing from my knowledge, and really leaning in on people that I know. Again, once I started to digest and understand what Project Oasis was trying to accomplish, it was almost mirror of what I wanted to do in every way right, make an impact in a place that doesn’t have a pharmacy, be the pharmacy, be the pharmacy shepherd, quote, unquote, in that community and helping address the needs and concerns of the community. So that just resonated with me on a very personal level, and it just aligned. And the biggest part of all that was that you got to open a pharmacy, but not just by yourself. You had the back end support of so many people that are committed to seeing this successful. So to me, was like, a no brainer, to at least pursue it. If it didn’t pan out, at least I learned a thing or two about writing a business plan that needed to be presented in like, you know, really, really hire people in McKesson, and so I applied for it, and that’s basically all where the story started.

Tim Ulbrich 14:22

You know, it’s interesting. Back to the through line of entrepreneurship. Emmanuel, I often say that, you know, for people and your story is such a good one, the synchronicity here is not accidental, right? So you might have kind of taken a sidestep or a pause, but it chased you down eventually, right? It chased you down in the form of Stu Beatty, now the Dean at Ohio Northern and Antonio Ciaccio, two incredible individuals in the profession and Ohio pharmacy practice that clearly saw a potential and an opportunity, and really, you know, that was a big nudge and an avenue forward. You mentioned Project Oasis a couple times. Tell us more about that for those that are listening, what exactly is that? How is that helpful to you getting this off the ground?

Emmanuel Ayanjoke 15:03

Yeah, so Project Oasis, was, you know, being that, you know, of course, I’ve been involved in no ins and out. But if you know, McKesson always tries, tries to tell everyone to just, you know, say certain lines. But I’ll give more, more back into how we started. You know, in Avondale here we had one of McKesson employees who lives and doesn’t live in Avondake, but family’s from Avondale here and has a very personal ties with community. This is way back then in 2018-2019 and he started to notice that his community was losing access to so many things. Grocery stores were closing, pharmacies were closing, and a community that’s in the heart of Cincinnati, literally, you see, health is right behind us, doesn’t have these critical things, grocery store, a pharmacy and so many other things that were needed. And there was this general talk within McKesson of trying to do a community impact project, something that would impact lives. And I think every organization of business should always try to do something beyond just their typical mission of whatever it is that they do to impact lives, because that’s where that’s all that matters at the end of the day. So they, you know, he took on the idea with support of folks within his division McKesson, that was a Russo O’Neill, okay? And he pushed his idea that, hey, let’s try to start a pharmacy where it’s needed. And they did an analysis and found that Avondale, Cincinnati, truly was, like, top of the list in terms of, you know, an urban region that doesn’t have a pharmacy, health isn’t where it needs, where it needs to be as a community level, and so many other things, disparities that were going on in Avondale, and that’s where it all started from. And, you know, fortunately, those within the higher ups of McKesson saw the impact that this project could make. And, you know, they dubbed the Project Oasis with the term that, you know, desert, pharmacy desert, and you’re putting the pharmacy there. And so, yeah, that’s what, that’s where Project Oasis started from, but one of the things that I learned through applying to it was the level of commitment that people had, not just as you know workers within this, you know, Fortune 10 company, but also the personal connection that people had towards a Project where people you know, you meet folks, are like, hey, whatever you need to be successful. I am happy to help you out. This is important. We want to make an impact in your community. So that was really, that’s really what Project Oasis is about. Now I don’t know what their what McKesson and their goal is right now with Project Oasis. But the goal was to sort of address this pharmacy deserts that come across, you know, the United States.

Tim Ulbrich 18:07

So we’ll link to that in the show notes for folks that want to learn more about that program. Do you have an idea? Manu, I’m just curious now, how many pharmacies have been supported by Project Oasis?

Emmanuel Ayanjoke 18:19

Oh, so right now, I am the first.

Tim Ulbrich 18:21

Let’s go!

Emmanuel Ayanjoke 18:22

Yeah, I’m the only one so far. And you know, it’s quite, quite a responsibility to be success, to make this successful, because a lot of other communities are, hopefully, maybe might be impacted by this. So failure is not an option. That’s how I see it. So I’m sort of a test run to see, yeah, if this can work.

Tim Ulbrich 18:45

Well, you and I both know, from a business standpoint, there will be micro failures that happen along the way. I hear you in the global failure, right? But, but naturally, for you to see this vision through, you’re going to have to embrace some level of failure along the way and take some risks. One of the things that stands out to me, Emmanuel, is that, you know, I talk with a lot of people on a regular basis, they have an idea, but it often dies at that point, right? The idea doesn’t go forward. It’s a whole nother level to actually execute, take on risk and begin to see that vision through and and I’ve since in your journey, while you’ve always thought about owning your own business, clearly the support and the resources through Project Oasis have been huge for you to say, All right, I’m ready to jump. I’m ready to move this forward. In addition to project Oasis and the team from McKesson that support you, what other resources have been critical to you as you’ve gone through this, this journey of open your own pharmacy?

Emmanuel Ayanjoke 19:41

I mean, if I started to list them out, you provide spend the next hour of this going through it. But I think the most important resource for me, in addition to the things that I try to do personally, like reading a lot of books, listening to a lot of audiobooks, has been people, the people that have gotten to meet. For me, I value relationships at a very high attribute, a very high value to relationships. So people that played a key part in my life, as been my former boss that I worked with in Zik’s Pharmacy. He’s just been a terrific human being to me, and has helped me with the realities of owning the business and how to be successful. So it’s people. I mean, I could go down a list of folks at Cedarville who have helped me personally my personal growth as a pharmacist, helping me understand certain things. It really is just people. I think the big, your biggest asset to success, for anyone, any successful person, is people.

Tim Ulbrich 20:49

Yes, relationships, people, absolutely. Especially in our profession, you know, where that community is is so small, right? Relatively speaking. And one of the things I asked you, before we hit record, I said, Hey, Emmanuel, how you doing? And you said, Hey, I’m going 1000 miles an hour, but I have so much support, so much support, and I think that speaks to the work that you’ve done in fostering those relationships, and the growth that has come from those. Emmanuel, I have to ask the obvious question that I think a lot of probably new practitioners that are thinking about owning their own pharmacy, or anyone, for that matter, that maybe is thinking about owning on a pharmacy, which is Wow, opening a pharmacy in this climate, right? We know the challenges are real. According to a recent NCPA survey, over 30% of respondents reported that they’re considering closing their doors in 2024 because of the financial challenges, and over 90% of them said that they may drop out of Medicare Part D in 2025 if the challenges still persist. So from the outside looking in, it doesn’t appear to be the best time to be launching a new pharmacy. So tell us more about how you’ve been able to, you know, see through that despite those challenges being real, and say, Hey, I’m still going to go at this.

Emmanuel Ayanjoke 22:02

I think the first thing I’ve learned in life is nothing is truly as good as it seems, and nothing is truly as bad as it seems. It’s always all gray. There’s no exactly this is black and this is white. It never is that way. It’s always all gray. And what I mean by that is, will you dive deeper and understand in a specific market the factors and headwinds going on in that market is very different. For example, in Ohio, if you’re in a Medicaid an area that has high Medicaid concentration, you have a fair dispensing fee that covers your costs of operating as a business. So that alone is a huge difference than a pharmacy that doesn’t have a high Medicaid area, right? So, yes, there’s always there. They are real, harsh realities of the pharmacy right now, even as a new business, when I look at my Medicare, you know, scripts, and performance in those scripts, I mean, I want to, I would throw my hands up and just, it’s, it’s horrifying sometimes, you know, but the reality of what I’ve learned is, you know, typically, to be successful in life. And I’m not saying this because I’m anywhere yet, but I’m saying this because I’ve seen other people, and I learned from a lot of people, but what I found is people that tend to be successful often go against the grain, go against what the crowd typically does. And there’s cycles in life. There’s always going to be naders and high points. And I think pharmacy is out of Nader right now. But when you are the Nader, that’s not necessarily negative thing. That’s a good thing when you started a native because it’s only high from there. And there’s a lot of factors and a lot of things and challenges that are going to happen in next 10 years for pharmacy to be where it needs to be. But I think that I am hopeful that we’re at the lowest point, and from here it’s just moving forward.

Tim Ulbrich 23:59

Yeah, I really hear mindset there Emmanuel, which I think is huge as a business owner, but I also hear optimism. I’m an optimist by nature, you know, as well. But I agree with you, actually, you know, it reminds me of Seth Godin talks about this in his book, The Dip, where, you know, often we go through these cycles, could be a project, could be a business, wherever you know, where we have an initial momentum and surge, and then we, you know, for whatever reason here we’re talking about market conditions and factors and reimbursement. You know, we kind of go down right, and we get to this low point, and we start to just come out of the other side of it, but we can’t yet see what’s coming. And that’s the point where a lot of people give up, you know, is when they’re in that low point, in that dip. And I think that it feels, and again, I’m a half glass full person, it feels like all signs are pointing towards some reform and these things, I think you and I look at this just as a common sense business owner, and we’re like, How in the world can this be okay to operate a business with these practices going on right? Now there’s a lot of headwinds that we’re facing in terms of why that’s the case, but I’m curious to hear from you as you look at as an owner and someone who shoulders some of the responsibility to advocate for, you know, the viability of community independent pharmacists to be able to provide the value that we know. The literature is very clear, the positive value and outcomes that a pharmacist can provide in their community, especially in an area where there’s a lack of access to healthcare. The data is clear. It’s there, but we continue to be undervalued and under reimbursed globally speaking. So as you look at this from, hey, I’m a business owner, but I’m also an advocate for the profession, what are some of those key issues that we really have to address?

Emmanuel Ayanjoke 25:35

Oh, where do I start? I think the biggest key issue is, you know, we live in a capitalistic society, and we just have to accept that reality. Our businesses are not, you know, they’re not you know, pharmacies are not nonprofits. They have to be able to make money doing a certain service. And there are two ways to incentivize people to do things. You either use the carrot or use the steak method, right? And to really move the needle on a lot of things in pharmacy practice, to get community pharmacy practice to be where it needs to be, there has to be payment reform. Reform in a sense that it covers us to operate as a business and provide those scripts, but also reform in a sense that we’re actually paid for the clinical knowledge that we provide. So those are, I mean, that sums, encapsulates lots of challenges, but those are the key. I think those are two things that need to happen for pharmacy, community pharmacy, to be where it needs to be. I think the values there. I mean, everyone is the values there. I’ve been opportunity to be on the tables with payers, physicians. I mean, everyone, even patients, everyone agrees that the values there. The challenge now is just getting rid of those barriers that allow us to be able to create a clear path to making these realistic, or, I guess, tactile, changes in the payment models that allow pharmacists to be paid.

Tim Ulbrich 27:08

Yeah, amen, you know, I think we it’s very clear. We don’t need another study to demonstrate the value of what a pharmacist can bring, right? We don’t need another pilot project, you know, to demonstrate that. They’ve been done. We see the value and the reimbursement, I think, is really the issue. And two individuals you mentioned earlier that were pivotal, you know, you started the pharmacy, Antonio Ciaccio, Stu Beatty, have been key advocates of this in the state of Ohio, you know, over the last decade, if not more. So last question I want to ask you is really the intersection between the business and the personal side of finances. You know, I talk with a lot of new graduates, and it’s not uncommon for me to hear something along the lines of, Hey, Tim, I would love to do X, Y or Z. And that could be on a business that could be, you know, do something different, work part time. It could be a variety of different things. But what comes next is my $200,000 of student loans, or insert any other financial challenge that is so common among new practitioners is a barrier to being able to go work towards these other goals that they have, right? And I think the golden handcuffs can be very real when you’re looking at a couple $100,000 of debt, and you can sign up and work for 120 130 $140,000 it’s hard to say no for that, and it doesn’t incentivize a whole lot of people to take risk in the way that you have done. So tell us about your decision, your journey to reconciling your own financial plan as a new practitioner, and ultimately making that decision to take on some risk as a business owner.

Emmanuel Ayanjoke 28:35

Yeah, absolutely. My vision and the way I see things and my general approach to life and business is sort of like planting trees, right? And what I mean by that is, yes, you might not have the perfectly, you know, I guess nutrient swallow for a tree that’s several feet high, but you can at least plant something for now, and that that is kind of has been my approach to everything, and why you might not have the financial capacity to necessarily, you know, you might not feel like you have the financial capacity to do certain things, it’s still important to plant the tree. And that’s, that’s how I see things. So I have about, honestly, have just slightly I’m a little bit better, and in comparison to a lot of pharmacy graduates, I have about $103,000 in student loans, which, which is still a lot of money, quite a lot of money. But it’s not nothing compares, in comparison to others who are just graduating. But the thing I would say is the way I would approach this is, do I have the cash flow to sustain my ability to eradicate those loans in a reasonable way? And if I do, or if I don’t, what ways can I mitigate that, even if I went to going to you know, own a business, that would be how our approach is. Because no matter how you see it, right, if owning a business is your end goal, if that’s where you want to be, time is going to go on. You know, time doesn’t wait for anyone. 10 years down the line, you’re going to be in the same place having, I mean, if you’re lucky, cleared all this debt, but at the end of the day, if this is something you want to do, you have to figure out to make your finances accommodate that in a way that makes sense. Now, again, it doesn’t mean you’re just blindly taking risks, right? Yeah, you actually have to calculate and see, okay, yeah. What is the worst case scenario if this happens, you know XYZ, and be able to be okay with that. If you can’t be okay with it, then maybe, I mean, some people, just maybe, the reality is that they actually are aren’t fit from a mindset perspective, to own a business, and that’s okay because it requires that you’re okay with, like, literally, things burning down. You just being by yourself and being able to weather through storm, you have to be okay with that reality, and that shouldn’t, shouldn’t scare you or deter you from accomplishing what you actually want to do. Yeah,

Tim Ulbrich 31:12

What I really hear there is, is, there is risk. It’s real, but it’s calculated risk, right? You’re not blindly entering into something, but we’re also not being paralyzed, you know? We could wait forever for the stars to align, you know. And I think that’s something I had to reconcile on my own entrepreneur journey. Is sure, could there be a tomorrow where it’s a better time, maybe, but there’s also a lot of things I don’t know that are going to happen tomorrow. And the question I always ask myself, not only in starting a business, but also in making decisions within the business, is, how high is the ceiling and how low is the floor. And I think my mindset, and probably for a lot of pharmacists, that I’ve kind of untrained myself, or I’m still untraining myself over time, is, you know, we tend to overestimate the worst case scenario, when, in fact, if we write it on paper, often it’s not as bad as we think it is, or built it up to be in our heads, and we maybe give we underestimate the potential of where this could go. Now, you got to be careful about that, right? If we have naive optimism, you know that that could burn us, but really assessing risk, you know, I think risk can bring a ton of emotions of fear, and we lose the objectivity of what are we actually talking about, right? What is the worst case scenario, and how can we begin to work through that? So I appreciate you sharing that as it relates to your own journey. Well, this has been fantastic. Dr. Manny, right as your patients call you, so grateful for you taking the time before you open the store today. A lot of inspiration that you provided to me in your own journey. I look forward to continuing to stay connected with you and to see where the journey goes going forward. Thank you so much for taking time to come on the show.

Emmanuel Ayanjoke 32:41

Thank you so much. Tim. Glad to be on.

Tim Ulbrich 32:45

Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists and the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% down payment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers and has no PMI on a 30 year fixed rate mortgage. To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to get started with the pre-approval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

Tim Ulbrich 33:30

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyzes expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events, action results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit your financial pharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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