YFP 336: Rx Career Forecast: Analyzing Pharmacy Job Trends w/ Alex Barker of The Happy PharmD


Alex Barker, CEO and Founder of The Happy PharmD returns to break down trends in the pharmacy job market.

Episode Summary

In this episode, we welcome back Alex Barker, PharmD, Founder and CEO of The Happy PharmD. Alex shares an update on trends in the pharmacy job market, including his outlook on the trajectory of the profession, projecting into the landscape of 2024 and beyond. He shares his thoughts on the #pharmageddon movement, with recent walkouts and efforts to unionize making headlines. He also breaks down a recent survey he posed on LinkedIn that shows the desire for more remote work opportunities and more pharmaceutical industry roles.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Alex Barker is the CEO and Founder of The Happy Pharm D, a nationwide coaching firm guiding pharmacists to inspiring careers and more fulfilling lives. Alex is an accomplished public speaker, a published author and teacher. Since 2017, his coaching program and career development seminars have guided over 2,000 pharmacists into new jobs and roles they love. His book Indispensable: A prescription for a fulfilling pharmacy career, has motivated countless pharmacists to love pharmacy again. Alex is a husband and the proud father of two daughters. He loves drinking coffee and eating good guacamole (though not at the same time). When he isn’t working, which happens occasionally, he plays Nintendo, Dungeon & Dragons, and reads comics.

Key Points From the Episode

  • Pharmacy job market trends with Alex Barker. [0:00]
  • Pharmacist shortages and dissatisfaction. [4:32]
  • Pharmacy industry changes and the impact of walkouts. [8:49]
  • The impact of AI on the pharmacy profession. [13:20]
  • Career paths and professional identity in pharmacy. [20:01]
  • Remote work opportunities for pharmacists. [24:57]
  • Industry trends and career shifts in pharmaceuticals. [30:36]
  • Pharmacist career paths and industry perception. [35:32]
  • Pharmacy profession’s future in 10 years. [40:36]
  • Pharmacy industry trends and predictions. [46:19]
  • Pharmacy career development and job opportunities. [52:17]

Episode Highlights

But the future of pharmacy cannot be product-only related anymore. It can’t just be about medicine. Because the opportunity is just not there. So my hope is that for anyone in one of those positions, whether in hospital or in community, you’re thinking ahead and looking to the problems of the business, what they currently have. And hopefully getting super curious about how you can solve these problems.” – Alex Barker [17:11]

“I think it reflects our professional identity, we love A to Z plans, right? We want it all laid out. We want to know what is the right thing to do to be a pharmacist practicing at the height of our license. And once we have that plan, then we know that we just, we just got to stick to it. And we have been trained and programmed through our education system to I mean, just really just do that. From kindergarten to the last day of pharmacy school, we were told exactly what we needed to do. And then we get out into the real world and realize that it never operates this way.” – Alex Barker [20:38]

“And I was like, man, what, what is the message we’re sending to our pharmacists that like, you’ve got such a narrow skill, there’s nothing else that you can do with it. I mean, there’s, there’s so much – from teaching to leading to being a manager. And I mean, practically any sector, because we’re all organizationally minded. I could go on and on about the different jobs that we could do, even outside of pharmacy. But there’s so much opportunity out there. But the narrow-minded nature of looking at what you can do, I think prohibits people from seeing jobs that they could actually have a lot of fun doing.” – Alex Barker [26:07]

“But we need to influence the public much differently about who we are and what we’re capable of. Because until the public gets it, they’re not going to go along with this idea of oh, I need to schedule an appointment with a pharmacist and I need to pay a pharmacist to do something for me. When for decades, if not well over a century or two, it’s been free to talk to us. You can’t just undo that, because we now have a doctorate. It is going to take decades, if not centuries, to get people to see that we’re different.” -Alex Barker [41:06]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

Tim Ulbrich  00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I welcome back Alex Barker, the founder and CEO of the Happy PharmD to talk all things pharmacy job market, including his outlook for 2024 and beyond. We discussed Alex’s take on Pharmageddeon the recent walkouts and the efforts of pharmacists to unionize, the desire and shift that he seen for pharmacists wanting remote work, the transition that’s happening to pharmaceutical industry roles, and Alex’s vision for the profession of pharmacy 10 plus years into the future. Alright we got a good one for you this week. Let’s jump into my interview with Alex Barker, the founder and CEO of the Happy PharmD. 

[START OF EPISODE]

Tim Ulbrich  00:48

Alex, welcome back to the show.

Alex Barker  00:50

Thanks for having me, Tim. It’s a pleasure.

Tim Ulbrich  00:52

So you’ve been on several times. I suspect most of our listeners know who you are. But just in case, give us a quick background and who is Alex Barker? And what is the Happy PharmD.

Alex Barker  01:03

So I created the Happy PharmD in 2017 to help pharmacists get careers and jobs that they would actually enjoy. I was on that pursuit myself. I was a burned out pharmacist for a few years as a clinical pharmacist. Didn’t enjoy it all what I did spent five years trying to figure out that process of creating a job that I would love. And here I am doing it and now helping now over I want to say it’s like 2400 pharmacists that have gone through at least one of our programs, I’ve taken one of our classes. And we’ve learned a lot about what pharmacists want and what they don’t want. And I’m excited to share some of those insights with you today on the podcast.

Tim Ulbrich  01:47

So fun fact, Alex, I don’t know if we shared this on the podcast before but that was one of your early early clients. 

Alex Barker  01:53

You were!

Tim Ulbrich  01:54

This would have been way, way back when in 2016? 2017? At the time, Tim Church and I were writing the book Seven Figure Pharmacist. 

Alex Barker  02:03

Yep.

Tim Ulbrich  02:03

We were just launching the brand, the community trying to figure out what was the next step of kind of moving that from a hobby to a side hustle to a business. And that was fun, and you provided tremendous value to me, and to hear that you’ve helped over 2000 people, your team has helped over 2000 people, and many more to come. That’s legacy stuff. That’s pretty cool. So congrats to you and the team at the Happy PharmD. That’s really awesome.

Alex Barker  02:28

Thanks. Yeah, it feels good. At first, it was just about helping people and it became more about families and changing the profession. And to me, that’s what’s exciting. You know, a lot of the pharmacists that come to us are from hospital and community typically, that’s where the majority of the jobs are. And that’s where a lot of people are burned out or tired or just have low, you know, job satisfaction. And getting them into stuff that they actually enjoy frees them up, they get to be present with their families more, they get to go to the soccer game, they get to pick them up from school. I mean, you’re doing that now, right in your business, you know that there’s, there’s nothing better than enjoying your work and living the life that you want to live. So it’s a privilege that I get to do it.

Tim Ulbrich  03:20

I love I always share people’s are thinking about starting business or business ideas when you can find that intersection between a business that is solving a problem that people are willing to pay for. And it aligns with something that you’re passionate about. And it’s adding value and is adding transformation. That’s a really sweet spot said it doesn’t mean it’s gonna be easy, but it’s a sweet spot to sit in. So I’m excited. I really wanted to talk about career trends in our profession, maybe for obvious reasons. There’s a lot going on out there. And we’re gonna dabble in several different topics. But this is a topic I’ve been interested in throughout my career. I’ve done career development in previous roles, but you are the expert, your team are the experts when it comes to career development, career transitions, career trends that are happening inside of a profession. And so I wanted to pick your brain on what the heck is going on right now. What’s your take on? You know, some of the hot topics in our profession? Where do you see things going? Not only in 2024, but I’m also gonna ask you to project out a little bit further than that. And you know, where do we see things going with a lot of the disruption and the change that we have come in, but it’s I graduated 2008 And that wasn’t that long ago, but a lot has changed in a very short period of time. 

Alex Barker  03:52

Yeah, back then. It was six figures in a car. Right? That was the thing. It was just about ending around 2008.

Tim Ulbrich  04:39

Uh, it was still there. I mean, there were there was six figures and a car I would say for a couple years. Probably getting towards the end of that I remember the the line that kept going around our class. There were rumors of a million dollar contract out in Alaska for three years with one of the chains. I don’t know if that was true or not. But that was kind of there right. That was a day and age that we were in. And, and that was a day and age when it was a, Hey, don’t worry about your student loan debt, like it’ll just take care of itself. So thankfully, we’ve made some dents in that. But I want to talk about first, you know, the Pharmageddon that has been coined recently, the recent walkouts that I think everyone is realized not only internally through people that have been cheering, but that’s made national news outlets, CNN, NPR, NBC, and so forth, and some recent efforts and announcements around unionizing, which isn’t a new effort, per se, but it’s a rejuvenated one. And from the individual that does this work in and out who follows these trends, who runs your own data and looks at the workforce, what do you make of this? Is it? Is it a new era that we’re heading into? Is it a reaction to something that’s brewing for a long time? And are we actually going to see change that comes out of this? Or is it going to be more of the status quo going forward?

Alex Barker  06:03

All great questions. And I’m, I’m so glad that I get to be recorded, so I can be on the record, because then I can six months from now, I’m gonna I can look back and say where what I was wrong about. So I think you and I know that a lot of these complaints be that were sourced from the walkout. I mean, we’ve known about them for years. Every pharmacist kind of knows that a lot of the sources of a lot of our problems, where they exist, where they are, we don’t need to go into them. But they exist. And I think this was a kind of like a reaction of the straw that broke the camel’s back. Right, we just got through the pandemic. And arguably, the stress then was potentially maybe higher than it is right now. I think we’re seeing a gestalt, which is one of my favorite German words, of a problem that is so complex, and it involves multiple things. The one of the factors that I think is newer is the this new generation of pharmacists. This new generation of pharmacists is different than everyone before it, because they are actively refusing to take the majority of jobs that are being offered right now. And from big business perspectives, that’s they say that there’s a shortage of pharmacists right now. And they they attribute that to the response of like, okay, well, we’re just not able to find pharmacists to fill, like basic positions that we’ve had open for years. But the truth is, is that there are more pharmacists than what the market needs right now, just from looking at labor supply and economics. But they’re not willing to take these jobs that are out there. And we’re also seeing, and I think you’ve heard this rumor as well, that more and more pharmacy residents are just straight up quitting their residency programs. I just spoke to one last week, who just had a gut feeling this wasn’t for her, this isn’t what she wanted. And while I don’t know if ASHP is reporting that data or are talking about the residency, quit rate, everyone is acknowledging that like this is getting higher and higher.

Tim Ulbrich  08:32

So which, which in our day and age, Alex, and we’re dating ourselves a little bit, like that was a hard, you do not do that ever, or, you know, professional consequences. And so that’s an interesting, I don’t know that the data and I don’t know how that is or is not reported. But that doesn’t surprise me. 

Alex Barker  08:52

No. 

Tim Ulbrich  08:52

And it’ll be interesting to watch that trend if it continues.

Alex Barker  08:57

What I’m looking at I know that I’m heavily biased towards like generation and thinking about the next workforce that is coming in. There’s obviously a lot of work environment issues, there’s a lot of reasons why the walkouts have been influenced by the decisions that a lot of these I mean, let’s be honest, it’s it’s just the retail chains that this is being the focus of, you know, the big ones. But generationally, this new generation that’s coming into the workforce is poised to change things. Not to deviate too much on a topic that isn’t related at all to pharmacy. But anthropology has documented research to show that generations follow a pattern. And this new generation that is coming up in into entering into the workforce is the one to change things. We are going through a period of change that is similar to the time period of the Great Depression and World War Two. The greatest generation is what they were called. And they lived in a world of turmoil, of uncertainty, and things that I hope that we’re not going to repeat in today’s age. But that generation is the same generation that’s coming into the workforce. So my one of my predictions is that the health care system is not sustainable. It will change. It has to change. But how it’s going to is, I mean, totally up for debate. But the system has a lot of cracks. And I think the walkouts is just one of those symptoms, right? It’s poised for change and reform. Now, it’s going to be up to whether or not the powers that be listen, to make those changes happen.

Tim Ulbrich  11:05

I think a couple of the trends that I’m watching, and again, just the day and age that we live in, I’ve been in some meetings recently, where there’s been individuals at a fairly high level, at a chain level talking about the you know, the response to this, and what’s involved in this. And one of the “aha” is I had through those conversations is that, you know, if you think about the groups that are walking out, and who are, you know, able to have some of these momentum around the Pharmageddeon, they can mobilize quickly, or they can mobilize quickly in the messaging, they can mobilize quickly and getting the word out there. And for anyone who’s been in a management leadership role, you know, that you can’t necessarily mobilize quickly when it comes to getting press releases out, getting information out in a way that, you know, perhaps reaches people where you want it to reach and is set in a way that you want to be said without a lot of the guardrails around it. And that’s an interesting dynamic to watch right now of like, who’s really controlling the communication streams? And I think that’s gonna be an interesting one to follow. Because, you, Alex, you had a post, you had a poll on LinkedIn recently, where you asked people about the impact of the walkout, you had over 600 votes. 45% responded, that they didn’t think the walkouts were going to have any change on the industry. 40% responded, they thought eventually would change the industry. So depending on if you’re half glass full or not person, you can look at that one way or the other. But my question is, like, Where? Where does this go? Right? Because when you think about the book that always comes to mind is former presidential candidate Andrew Yang wrote a book called The War on Normal People, several years ago, and he talked about the impact or potential impact of autonomous driving on truck drivers. And I remember hearing it at the time and thinking, Wow, what a good example, and this was, you know, five, six years ago, I think I read that what a good example, for us to be thinking about pharmacy. And the picture he paints is, you know, a cohort, a workforce, largely middle aged men. For the most part, some of them may have previous degrees or training, many do not 1520 years into the career. And let’s imagine a scenario where all of a sudden, well, those jobs are replaced by technology. Now, there’s been a lot of developments since then autonomous driving, and you know, what’s, what’s the trajectory? How fast is that going to go? But it’s a really good exercise for us to think about as well in pharmacy. If we think about community retail chain pharmacy, if we fast forward 10, 15, 20 years, the pathway of automation and technology is there. Now, we may not like it or want to hear that outcome. We have state boards of pharmacies and regulatory bodies that I think are potentially going to slow that disruption. But it feels like it’s a matter of it’s going to happen. It’s just a matter of when is it 10 years, eight years, seven years, six years, three years. And so when we’re talking about 50% of the workforce, you know, the work you do and coaching people through career transitions, we potentially have a huge chunk of the workforce that we need to be thinking about redeployment into other fields. And does that come quick? Or is that more of a slow off ramp? Or am I being dramatic?

Alex Barker  14:16

What comes to mind is the entire horse industry, like in 1914, which I think is like the year before the Henry Ford model came out. And then in a matter of two years, an entire industry fell apart. There wasn’t a need for blacksmiths. There weren’t any for stables. There weren’t a need for breeders, as many veterinarians. I mean, tons of people’s lives were impacted in a matter of just a couple of years. Because we innovated on technology and we created something more consumer. Beneficial, right? The car. When I think about technology, innovating. I look back to that 1999 congressional statement talking about the shortage of pharmacists that was going to happen, which never happened. There was never a shortage of pharmacists. And there was no real indication. According to actually one book that analyzed this prediction, there was really no significant signs that indicated that that was ever going to happen. And also, they didn’t equate for the changes in technology that was going to happen in the early, you know, 20s, or 2000s. So, when I think about what’s going to happen, AI, in the huge boom that we’re going through right now, I think it’s really similar to like the dot com boom and bust that happened in the early 2000s. When I think about the core aspects of pharmacy, it’s the human element that has always been present. And for the things that are more mundane, that can be handled technology by technology, I think those will be replaced. How do we redeploy those people? I think it involves learning new skills and building new models. You know, you and I talked a little bit before this that like, what does the future look like in pharmacy, and what do I hope for. My hope is, is that we figure out who we are. My hope is, is that the associations band together instead of vie separately, and really try to create a unified, professional identity about who we are, and what we do, and elevate and showcase those pharmacists that are doing those practices and leading the way forward. Because the dispensing model is done, it’s been done for a while. And there’s really not a lot of innovation happening there. There are some really cool players in the independent space that are doing innovative things with moreso services, clinical services. But the future of pharmacy cannot be product only related anymore. It can’t just be about medicine. Because the opportunity in the states is just not there. So my hope is is that for anyone in one of those positions, whether is hospital or in community, you’re thinking ahead and looking to the problems of the business, what they currently have. And hopefully getting super curious about how you can solve these problems. You don’t have to start a business. You know, Tim and I are just entrepreneur fanatics. We love talking about it. But you can figure out problems in your current organization. And that’s really how to create an indispensable career. It’s just focus on those problems, get super curious about them, try to fix them. And that’s how, that’s how job opportunities happen. Because I mean, just one thing about AI, you know, that created a brand new industry out of thin air. Chat GPT revolutionized everyone’s access to AI, and created so many jobs. And I don’t see a whole lot of people in pharmacy going down that route. It is totally doable. It’s totally possible. In fact, that pharmacist I mentioned earlier, who quit her residency is doing just that she is now going into the AI and startup route and utilizing her pharmacy knowledge. So it’s not impossible, it can create new jobs, but it’s going to eliminate ones that the market really no longer values. 

Tim Ulbrich  18:51

Yeah, and this, you know, what you’re sharing is obviously so deeply connected to the work that we do at YFP, because for someone to have the capacity to go explore other opportunities, even if that’s on the back of them staying with their current employer. Let’s say we know the train, we know where the train’s going. But I’m gonna ride that train and kind of buy myself some time to be curious and go explore these other things. Having the financial plan and the foundation in place to allow yourself to be curious. Right, I often will say is if someone doesn’t have their financial house in order, you will suffocate curiosity. And it doesn’t have to be to your point. It doesn’t have to be a business. And actually, in the vast majority of the cases, if we’re talking about the numbers we’re talking about, we have over 330,000 pharmacists, in our profession, half of them work in the space that is tied in some way to a product, if we’re talking about any percentage of that being redeployed, it’s not going to be a big dent, that’s going to be entrepreneurship. It’s going to be what you’re talking about. It’s going to be people that are identifying opportunities, you know, within organizations that maybe are in the Department of Pharmacy, maybe they’re not and this is like any other profession any their career direct trajectory. For the most part, obviously, there’s some examples where it’s a very linear path. But for many of us that graduated, you know, I graduated at 24 with a 06 doctorate program, I was put on a one way linear path. And we get stuck thinking on that pathway. And when you talk with people that, you know, maybe they graduated with an undergraduate psychology degree or a business degree, and then they took one job, and then it took another job and another job and they skill stack over time. Right. But you can’t say draw a clean line of experiences, like we want to envision in pharmacy. And I think that’s a, that’s a scary thing to think about.

Alex Barker  20:38

I think it reflects our professional identity, we love A to Z plans, right? We want it all laid out. We want to know what is the right thing to do to be a pharmacist practicing at the height of our license. And once we have that plan, then we know that we just, we just got to stick to it. And we have been trained and programmed through our education system to I mean, just really just do that. From kindergarten to last day of pharmacy school, we were told exactly what we need to do. And then we get out into the real world and realize that it never operates this way. Maybe Only in rare circumstances or going into a major corporation, do you see the ladder before you. But in pharmacy, the ladder is really short. Most people do not go up the corporate ladder, save maybe in pharma. But it’s all just about well, get your degree, pass your boards. Go get a job. Yeah. And then that’s it. Yeah. And I think you the other aspect, you know, something you mentioned is getting into that track. I think about it’s who you’re surrounding yourself with.

Tim Ulbrich  21:52

I was just thinking the same thing. 

Alex Barker  21:54

Yeah. I was gonna ask you, you know, once you entered into the workforce, did you kind of feel like you, you came out of school, maybe like really excited, right, I finally have a job, I’m gonna get paid to do this thing. And, like, there’s excitement to both learn and practice. And then you look at everyone around you, and no one else feels that way. Everyone else is like, it’s Monday, you know? What you do this weekend? Like, there’s just no passion there. At least that was my experience. And I think if that’s who you surround yourself with, that’s who you end up becoming? Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich  22:38

And to that point it, it can become an echo chamber, you know, you talked about the short ladder, like, you know, this is true in any any part of life, we’re talking professional here, you know, this is true in your financial life and in business and your pursuit of physical wellness, and in your marriage, anything like, you know, are we being stretched and challenged? And are we being curious, right to your point, I love that word, curiosity. And if, if we’re in an echo chamber of, you know, our department, where everyone’s thinking and looking at the same short ladder, well that’s the only ladder we know? And you start to put yourself in situations where you realize, wow, like, she did something really cool. And I’m thinking about your community, Alex, and the Happy PharmD like, so and so you know, had this opportunity. And then they went here, and they did this and this and they realize it’s about the skill stack. And and I always love to give the example of my brother, because he’s such a great example of this, where you’ve got to get yourself out of the mindset of your degree, and the only thing you can do and really focus on your skills and what you can bring. He was an industrial engineer by training, he went on the fast track to investment banking, with one of the large firms, you know, was grinding that out for several years to the to the point where you know, his bonus was bigger than the salary, one of those gigs, doing huge international banking kind of got to this point of like, I see what I see. And I don’t want this to be the path that I’m on for the next, you know, 20 plus years as I raised my family walked away with no plan, moved from London to Buffalo, where we grew up, took nine months to explore, like, what were the things that he liked, didn’t like, what was he interested in? Not what was his degree or where he worked, but what could he bring to an organization? How can he tell that story? And he ended up taking a job as a president of an advanced manufacturing firm. Right? And then he eventually left that and he’s since bought a business and doing something that’s completely different. It’s about the mindset and the skills. And I suspect that a lot of the work that you do with your clients is kind of breaking out some of the shell and the habits that we form.

Alex Barker  24:43

Yeah, in fact, we we have a survey that we’ve been developing and working on, where we assess where pharmacists find the most fulfillment and what careers match that kind of fulfillment. And overwhelmingly, every pharmacist has a very high rating for anything relating to soft skills. So very few people care so much about like the actual hard skills of pharmacy. Right. So whether it’s dealing with software, programming, yeah. Providing patient assessments, like anything that you’ve learned technically probably from from school, consider it a hard skill. But where pharmacists don’t really utilize, I think, very well for career development is just all the soft skills that they build in any job that they’ve ever had. Those skills can follow you to wherever you go. I just did a, I just did a Class CE, this morning about impostor syndrome. And there was a few people on there that were saying, like I was, I was working a pharmacy job, and I quit, I had had enough. And I don’t think my skills lend themselves very well to any other kind of job. And I was like, man, what, what is the message we’re sending to our pharmacists that like, you’ve got such a narrow skill, there’s nothing else that you can do with it. I mean, there’s, there’s so much – from teaching to leading to being a manager. And I mean, practically any sector, because we’re all organizational minded. I could go on and on about the different jobs that we could do, even outside of pharmacy. But there’s so much opportunity out there. But the narrow minded nature of looking at what you can do, I think prohibits people from seeing jobs that they could actually have a lot of fun doing.

Tim Ulbrich  26:47

So as typically goes when you and I get on a conversation, I think I had 10 or 12 questions prepped. And I’m on question two, so. But I want to ask you about a trend that I’ve been following from afar, but I know you’ve been looking at closer. I saw you post on LinkedIn several times, which is a trend and a shift around remote work. He had a post recently on LinkedIn that said, you have been inspired by countless success stories of pharmacists who’ve embraced remote roles, reclaiming precious moments with family and friends exploring the world being present for all the important things in life. The perks of remote work are limitless, but it often comes at the cost of a potential pay cut. So what are you seeing in terms of both the interests, you know, what’s driving that interest around, remote work, and then the opportunities that are available in that space?

Alex Barker  27:35

So let’s start with the opportunities. Practically almost any job can be remote for pharmacists. Now, I say that with some caveats. The most common jobs right now are community and hospital. Most people have heard of remote fill pharmacists for hospitals. But what about in the community setting? Well, like it or not, there are policies being put forth in multiple state legislatures that are allowing pharmacists to remotely manage pharmacies in communities where there’s not a lot of access to pharmacies. I am not a fan of that kind of legislation. But I just pointed out as to say, bills are being passed right now to make pharmacists more available to patients via remote access. But where a lot of people are focusing their remote kind of work is in pharma. Those typically don’t rely on people coming into a physical building. So a lot of pharmacists right now are really interested in that sector. But there’s plenty of remote jobs available for just any. I mean, right? I get alerts for our clients. And I just saw a job come in for ambulatory care pharmacist remote fill. And I was like, oh, no, I’m not remote fill, but just remote job. And I was like, Yep, it’s possible care. Yeah. As far as what I’m seeing, I was actually shocked by that poll. Because, I mean, I didn’t I didn’t look at it this morning. Because I mean, it’s hot off the press. It’s still being filled out now. But I think it was like 88% of people said that they would be willing to take a pay cut to get a remote job. And I was honestly surprised by this response. But when I think about it, when I think about who pharmacists are, I mean, we’re typically remote driven people, technically. We are people that want to be present with our families. We normally have families, or they wanting to start one. This newer generation in particular, is really fascinated by location independence. They’re fans of technology, so they’re willing to adopt it in their lives. They don’t necessarily want to be in a location where there’s other people all the time. There’s definitely hinder. And there’s reasons not to pursue remote work, especially for any relationally minded people that thrive being around other people. But yeah, right now, it’s it’s kind of overwhelming. I made that post and I got a lot of messages to respond to from people saying, Okay, you talked about it, where are they? I’ve been looking for a job. And I want to I want to get one. So it’s, it’s been interesting to see, but I suppose I shouldn’t really be surprised by it.

Tim Ulbrich  30:36

Yeah, I’m glad you brought up industry, because that’s a trend that I’ve been watching as well, that makes sense that connection to remote work. I actually talked with a industry fellow recently, who is thinking about geo hacking, to, you know, technically, like there’s not supposed to work remote, but they only have to come in the office about four times a year. And usually it’s 24 hours notice, she says, like, well, for four flights a year, and I can, you know, have a Boston salary without living in Boston, right. But this is a trend I’ve been watching, you know, the data from the workforce still still shows us as a fairly small percentage of the workforce. But it feels like the dialogue around it is a lot bigger. I’ve talked for several pharmacists in the last year, you know, people that have gone from PGY1, one PGY2 to critical care, hemonk specialty roles, sometimes it was from the pandemic that burned them out, you know, others are just looking for other opportunities. And there’s a shift that’s happening to industry. 

Alex Barker  31:32

Yes.

Tim Ulbrich  31:33

 And I’m curious to hear what are you seeing the same and then to what’s driving that? Is it burnout? Is it you know, typically, industry roles come with higher compensation packages, perhaps more volatility, something we’re probably not talking enough about? But what are you seeing as some of the drivers of this shift? And is that a shift you’re seeing? 

Alex Barker  31:52

Oh, yeah, totally. Pharma is the new sexy career to pursue. I just spoke with a professor. I won’t say which school, but I spoke with them about what are students saying they want for preceptors that was like what, what kind of rotations. And she said, it’s always Pharma. That’s what they want. They don’t want clinical anymore. They don’t want community, they get disappointed when they get in a hospital. They want to see pharma jobs. And I think the truth of the matter is, is that the pharma market isn’t ready for this. There isn’t a demand there. There’s a demand on the pharmacists side, there’s a demand from our profession to get more involved, which I think hasn’t been present for the majority of our profession, when I graduated, and I think you can attest to this. We’re getting old Tim, it just hit me. When I graduated pharmacy school, the the the dogma of the time was that you were a bad guy if you went to pharma. You’re just in it for the money, you’re working for the bad guys. You need to be a pharmacist, you need to be a clinician, because then you’re you’re doing what’s right for the patient. Not what’s right for the company. Well, that is almost completely gone. I haven’t heard that from a student once or anything like it, everyone wants to get into it because of the potential for remote work, the potential for work life balance, the potential to just get away from the public. This is a newer one, that at first, I was a little bit surprised by, but for those that are burned out, it makes a lot of sense. You’re not having to deal with angry customers all the time coming at you with any sort of array of problems or anger issues that you cannot predict. It’s tiring to work with the public. And so they see the potential to work in pharma as a way of escaping I think a lot of those things. But it’s not all, you know, sunshine and rainbows in pharma. You know, there’s less job security that’s there, you’re more likely to be let go due to industry changes, market changes. You are more likely to be there, well, I shouldn’t say that with certainty. But there there’s just as many toxic work environments in pharma. There is more job satisfaction by comparison. If you just look for one for one, like job satisfaction rates between pharma and just typical pharmacy, but burnout is still present. So while I know that the opportunity is there, and frankly, like it’s so easy, from my perspective to just get started in doing side gigs in pharma that you can make some extra cash doing those things. But it’s a whole other thing to transition into the field with a job and expect remote, expect a nine to five, Monday through Friday. There are other pressures there for sure. So you have to be careful about who you I mean, what companies you want to get into. The trends are there. I don’t see it going away anytime soon. 

Tim Ulbrich  35:31

Yeah, yeah. And I’ve come to appreciate, you know, this better than I oxys you guys work in this more, but I’ve got a longitudinal appy student right now on an entrepreneurship rotation with us that’s looking at biopharmaceutical industry fellowship programs, and just hearing about all the different spaces within the pharmaceutical industry, I think, you know, in my mind, not speaking for others, tend to paint this broad brush of, you know, industry just like we do and chain and hospital and ambulatory care and academia. But really, there’s layers and details and segments, and yes, you know, MSL roles versus other, you know, regulatory roles. And so, so much to learn about, you know, it’s probably not just fit with pharma, but what is the fit with the specific areas of interest. And from a career placement standpoint, I would think that’s a really important piece to understand to then determine your path for networking and an opportunity.

Alex Barker  36:24

Right, a lot of people think Pharma is just one path. But we’ve identified I think, like eight different sectors. And within each sector, there’s like, eight to 15 different kinds of jobs that pharmacists can do. Some more popular than others. Obviously, clinical medical affairs is way more popular than things like R&D and biotech. But it’s still possible one of our coaches, went from retail chain manager to getting into biotech and helping out with operations. So like, it’s there’s endless possibilities. But it’s a totally different market. It’s not patient care, which is, like, love it or hate it, it’s our bread and butter as a profession. So it does take a leap to get into it. 

Tim Ulbrich  37:14

Yeah, and I think another side conversation that we can have, and save for another day is, you know, so much of the opportunity for our profession does stem whether we like it or not from the public and other’s perception of who we are and what we do. Yeah. And, you know, I don’t think a pub the, the lay public would necessary associate a pharmacist role with being in the industry. So that this goes back and interesting discussion, we think about, like redeployment of our workforce. You know, there’s some sub discussions in there that are really interesting to me of, well, how does that impact the public’s perception of who we are and other healthcare professionals perception of who we are, because right now, we may or may not necessarily like what the perception is, but people largely associate a pharmacist with doing one or two types of things. And we’re now starting to splice that pie chart a little bit further, which is interesting. I think it’s exciting, but also presents maybe some challenges around communicating who we are and what we do. And then how do we educate this pathway that could go in 30 different directions right now we educated to go really in one or two directions. For the most part.

Alex Barker  38:20

You know, I hear a lot of talks about this kind of thing, like within associations, mainly. Maybe a little bit in academia. But I think we have a, we don’t really understand how the market is influencing us. I think the the people in charge of pharmacy, I think for a time they thought, you know, if we just increase our level of education, people will respect us. But hindsight is 2020. And I think it revealed that the market didn’t care. The job market didn’t care. The public didn’t care about this demand. They weren’t telling the powers or regulation, or government bodies, pharmacists need more education. They need to get doctorates in order to do what they can do. And we’re still recoiling from that decision to increase our education, but the job market and the jobs available, don’t demand that higher level of education. So when I think about how we influence the public, I think we put a lot of heavy burdens on ourselves as a profession to try to maintain across the line when we aren’t even looking at the low hanging fruit. So I’ve I’ve publicly said this in a few different places. And there isn’t a whole lot of movement yet because I don’t have the time, but If I was to predict, if everything goes right Tim, and I am able to do this, I would want to create media that positively influences what pharmacists do can do. And I don’t mean cheesy patient stories or pharmacist stories about how they can save person’s life, you know, those are good. They’re good. But like, we need a Hallmark movie about a pharmacist falling in love. We need…

Tim Ulbrich  40:36

Is there a producer of Hallmark that’s listening to the show? We’ll found out.

Alex Barker  40:39

Like maybe, I hope! we need a Breaking Bad story about a pharmacist who, who has a tragic backstory to him and he goes into the pharmacy, does what he can for the community, At night, he’s like a vigilante busting of drug rings. We need video games that showcase what we can do. I don’t know what it is exactly. But we need to influence the public much differently about who we are and what we’re capable of. Because until the public gets it, they’re not going to go along with this idea of oh, I need to schedule an appointment with a pharmacist and I need to pay a pharmacist to do something for me. When for decades, if not well over a century or two, it’s been free to talk to us. You can’t just undo that, because we now have a doctorate. It is going to take decades, if not centuries, to get people to see that we’re different. We can do things we can we can change people’s lives, we can save people’s lives with what we do. But we’re not going to just make it happen if we just make the service. So that’s my Hallmark movie pitch.

Tim Ulbrich  42:09

I love it. Well, speaking of Hallmark movie pitches, maybe we’ll have it in time for the timeframe of my next question, which is 10 years from now. So your vision of our profession in 2033. And let me give you some background statistics that kind of frame where we’ve been starting in 2013 to 2023. And then I’ll ask where you think we may be in 2033. So 2013, we had a little over 60,000  – 62,000 that were enrolled in a PharmD program. The median debt load of a pharmacy graduate was $130,000. And median salary was around $116,000. In 2023, fast forward 10 years actually, some of this is 2022 data, we’re down from 62 to about 47,000 enrolled in a PharmD program. And we know that’s still going down further. Median debt load is $158,000, up from 130. And then finally, we’re seeing the average farmer salary is up from about $116k to $129k. And we know there’s some limitations with with BLS data, but we’ll use that for the sake of the conversation. And then if we draw the pie chart right now, using the workforce survey data we have from 2022. If you combine those that are working in independent pharmacy, mass merchandiser chain, etc, it’s about 50% of our profession, about a quarter, 24%,  or an inpatient/hospital/health system practice. And then the remaining 25% is a spattering of all different types, you know, managed care, fusion, academia, ambulatory care, etc. So when you think about income, when you think about enrollment, when you think about jobs, when you think about types of jobs, like where are we in 10 years? Because I think one of the questions that I think a lot about is where would things be moving with or without the guardrails of the State Boards of Pharmacy? Right, but I think you use this situation we’re in right now that led to a lot of the walkouts and things. The State Board of Pharmacy response has been largely speaking very pro pharmacist. Yeah, obviously, technology, automation for profit companies, all that, perhaps would be moving much faster if it weren’t for that. So I’m just curious where in 10 years, do you see us going as a profession?

Alex Barker  44:34

I can’t wait for 10 years when I listen to this and I go, Oh, Alex. Oh, Alex, if you only knew. So I’ll lay out my biases. I try to be more optimistic than pessimistic. I believe innovation is a great thing. But it’s not without its casualties. Um, and I have a lot of half baked theories. So a lot some of this is going to come across as like, Where’s that coming from? I think in 10 years time, it’s 2023, almost 2020, or I’m sorry, 2020 or 2034? Yeah, I think what will happen, is PBMs are going to get a lot more pressure put on them from lawmakers and the public. I don’t know if they’ll still exist by then. We are the only nation in the world, I believe that uses this model. And it’s a broken, unsustainable model. It’s already starting to get some pressure put on it from a few different places. But these organizations have a lot of money. So they’re not going to go down without kicking and screaming. It’s going to be a fight. And I think there’s going to be some major legislation and court cases to be had over the next couple of years. I think that innovation will continue to drive service delivery within the pharmacy sector. So I think that this is going to drive market demand. I speculate that there will be a new role invented by 10 years from now. I don’t think it will be a pharmacist focus role. I think it will be like a pharmacy advanced technician. I’ve already seen some, like courses and certifications and things in place for that. But I think that the tech check tech programs have been validated enough, both through I mean, we all heard about that Walgreens technician who faked being a pharmacist for 10 years. Right? Do you remember that a few years back, like 2018-2019. That was the biggest tech check tech program ever, with 10s of 1000s of prescriptions that were apparently safely approved by a technician, not a pharmacist. So I believe that there’s going to be almost like a new profession of an advanced pharmacy technician, or call it a downgraded pharmacist. Maybe a pharmacist who only needs- only needs- a bachelor’s. And because that’s what is needed in hospitals and community pharmacy. You do not need a doctorate to practice pharmacy and those settings under current market conditions, current market conditions

Tim Ulbrich  47:47

In a distribution role. 

Alex Barker  47:49

Exactly. So I think Ohio is a great example of this. I think more and more clinical services will be passed through laws and legislation that will create new jobs. However, my fear is that it’s going to be the same story as MTM. I think that we’re based on the things that I’ve read, I don’t know how confident I feel that we are negotiating for all of our worth. And we’re gonna get another bad deal like MTM. So I think that more consultancies, more service oriented pharmacy solutions will be created over the next 10 years that’ll create really interesting and doctorate level positions, to be sure. But you know, everyone, I wasn’t there when MTM was created. But I remember and I’ve read the articles that people thought this is the wave. This is what we can do. And it’s been over 25 years, I think since its implementation. 

Tim Ulbrich  48:56

2006 was the implementation.

Alex Barker  48:59

Oh, was it? Okay, yeah. 

Tim Ulbrich  49:03

I think it was implemented with Medicare. My I’m sure Rob somebody correct me. I think it was Medicare Part D in 2006. 

Alex Barker  49:09

Yeah, I got into college 2006. So I definitely wasn’t paying attention. So it’s been like 20, almost 20 years. And it’s very rare to see a business successfully implementing it. It’s viewed more as a distraction now and so my my wonder is how well are we going to be able to negotiate that into actual payment for services. And I think that innovation will continue in technology and that will replace a lot of what is happening. I optimistically, am hoping for pharmacies to be more like clinics, almost as in a like, a step down from urgent care. But like this is the first place you go to with a problem or a question. And there could be some sort of billing process that could be developed through there. And really how these things can be profitable as both through services, but then also all of the front end stuff, all of stuff that actually makes pharmacies money today, which is not prescriptions. That’s the loss leader and has been now for well over a decade. I think that’s only going to continue unless PBMs power is somehow supplanted. But for what stands in its place, you’re talking, oh, my gosh, think about the amount of time and reform is going to be in place for something like that. In to the final point, which was about students, I really don’t think that pharmacy is going to bounce back in the next five to 10 years in terms of interest. Unless something significant happens from some sort of marketing perspective. Because right now, everyone in forums and online spaces, making it really clear that the money, the salary, the six figure job, which is like the new sexy thing, I don’t know, if you pay attention to that at all, but like, you know, there’s this whole trend right now of people saying like, Oh, they don’t even want to date someone unless they make six figures. Yeah, I’m so glad I’m not dating. But people are making it really clear, like, hey, the salary is great, but it’s not worth it. The debt, the workload, the stress. And this new generation, like we talked about earlier, is just not willing to take that they’re not willing to risk it to get the money, but potentially, like hate their jobs and their lives. So I think interest is going to decrease, which in turn, of course, means increases the salary for us, increases the demand for us from companies. But with innovation, technology, I don’t know how it’s all going to balance out. Those are some of my predictions, some hopeful, some not so hopeful.

Tim Ulbrich  52:17

It’s interesting. I think there’s, as I’ve expressed you before, like, we need more of a space to have these types of conversations and bring in other types of opinions and stakeholders, you know, without, without, you know, feeling like we have to walk on eggshells, you know, and to have those conversations and, you know, you do have to make some assumptions, right. And there’s gonna be some optimistic things, and some that aren’t as optimistic. But one of the things that I’ve always thought is interesting that you alluded to in your comments there is we have a physical footprint that is very unique all across the country. Now misaligned with a business model that is sustainable, and and one that people want to be working in, right, that’s the challenge that we’re in. But we have an interesting physical footprint that was developed. And we’ve run into challenges. You know, I think the maybe the vision 5-10 years ago was a really, pharmacists can fill a gap in the need for primary care of a shortage of which that shortage is getting greater and greater, as less and less physicians want to go into primary care, and they want to go into more specialties. Unfortunately, you know that I don’t really want to say that ship has sailed, but it’s pretty darn close when you look at what PAs and NPs have done in the inroads they’ve made. But we have this physical footprint, which is a very interesting thing to be thinking about. And is it in competition with is a different than primary, you know, what are the different ways we could be thinking about this, but I do think there’s some interesting opportunities here that need a lot more thought and discussion, and you bring up several of those right there. So that’s good stuff. As people are listening, if they’re thinking about making a career transition, maybe it’s a hey, I’m ready right now maybe it’s, this is something I want to be thinking about over the for, you know, future that’s coming up. Where’s the best place, Alex, that they can go to follow you, follow your work and get plugged into the resources that you have available?

Alex Barker  54:11

I think the biggest question people have is, What can I do? Will the next place be any better than what I currently have? Yeah. Are there other career paths for me? And those are all great questions that you don’t have to figure out by yourself. I spent five years trying to figure that out. When when Tim hired me as a coach, that that was a point in my life where I still wasn’t even really solidified in, hey, do I want to go into academia? Or do I want to create a business? And that takes a lot of time and effort on your part. One of the things that can really benefit you is talking to someone who is an expert on career development, and getting a perspective that is outside of you, with someone who knows and understands pharmacy. What I would encourage you to do is to go to our website, thehappypharmd.com, I’m sure we’ll have a link in the show notes, and talk with one of our career advisors. We have two of them on staff with us, Eric and Samar. And they’ve talked with literally hundreds and hundreds of pharmacists. And really, the first step that a lot of people take is like looking at, what can I do, and deciding on a path that makes the most sense for you, and then creating the strategy to transition, and not wasting a whole lot of time doing things like applying to countless jobs, that you may or may not even like, wasting time, not having productive conversations with people. But instead, I would encourage you, talk with us, have a conversation, it’s free to do so just like talking with a pharmacist. It’s free to hang out with us. And in that, you’ll get a little bit of a clearer vision of what you can do, and some next action steps to take. And if you do want to work with a coach, we can talk to you about what that is like, what it’s like working with a coach, and how right now what we do with our clients is we work with them until they get a job. So I’m really excited about the future of pharmacy because we’re helping people get all sorts of cool and awesome jobs, like just last week, talked to someone getting an MSL role. So it’s happening, there are opportunities out there. But I think there’s a smart way of going about it. One that is faster, takes a little bit less effort on your part. That’s with us.

Tim Ulbrich  56:41

Well, great, we will link to that in the show notes happy thehappypharmd.com. I’ll also link to Alex’s LinkedIn profile. If you’re not already following him on LinkedIn, I would highly encourage it. I enjoy the insights you share on the career market that we have going on, I really look at you as an expert in the space. So I’m sure we’ll have you on once if not twice in 2024. But for now, appreciate the recap, you’ve given us where we’re at and potentially where we’re heading. So thanks so much for coming on the show.

Alex Barker  57:08

Thanks for having me, Tim.

[DISCLAIMER]

Tim Ulbrich  57:12

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 335: Pharmacy Innovators w/ Dr. Adam Martin Hosted by Dr. Corrie Sanders


In this Pharmacy Innovators episode, sponsored by First Horizon, Dr. Adam Martin joins Dr. Corrie Sanders to share keys to success and living at a high level.

Episode Summary

On this episode in our Pharmacy Innovators series hosted by Corrie Sanders, PharmD, we get a masterclass from Tony Robbins coach Adam Martin, PharmD.

You’ll want to get our your journal to write down the wisdom Adam shares.  He dives deep into the keys of success and living life at a higher level, emphasizing the importance of having fun in your journey to success. The message is clear: if you’re not having a blast, you might be doing it wrong.

Are you in the right environment? Are external influences steering you off course?

Success leaves clues, and Adam shares a powerful tip for achieving it quickly: proximity. The three-step mantra is simple—get close to people playing the game at the level you aspire to.

A must listen episode for everyone looking to become their best self and living life as it was intended!

About Today’s Guest

As a Tony Robbins Results Coach and Business Results Trainer, my focus is not only on where you want to be, but also on recognizing the value of the space you’re currently in—the space between where you used to be and where you desire to go. It is within this space that growth and transformation happen, and my role is to leverage the progress you’ve already made to propel you towards the results you truly deserve. I am dedicated to helping individuals achieve unprecedented levels of success and transformation, all while ensuring that the process is enjoyable and fulfilling.

Creator of The Fit Pharmacist, I host the weekly Script Your Confidence Podcast. As a doctorate in pharmacy having written multiple authored books, along with running my own speaking business and being certified as a personal trainer and nutrition consultant, I possess over a decade of experience working with high-level clients. I have honed my expertise in guiding clients towards their goals, overcoming limitations, and maximizing performance through a deep understanding of human behavior and performance. My coaching approach is results-focused, action-oriented, and tailored to the unique needs and aspirations of each client.

My clients come from diverse backgrounds, including entrepreneurs, healthcare professionals, executives, athletes, and individuals seeking personal growth and fulfillment. I am committed to creating a results-driven coaching environment where they can transform burdens into blessings by mastering the art of resourcefulness and overcoming past obstacles.

I utilize cutting-edge tools and strategies from Tony Robbins’ proven methodologies, combined with my insights and expertise from implementing his material in my own life. This combination facilitates powerful shifts and helps individuals unlock the next level of their potential.

My mission is to coach you to unlock your full potential, live a life of personal excellence, amplify your impact, and create a future that surpasses your wildest dreams.

Key Points From the Episode

  • Finding fulfillment in pharmacy careers through self-discovery and empowerment. [2:35]
  • Career changes, impostor syndrome, and the power of the mind. [6:22]
  • Overcoming obstacles to pursue pharmacy school and leadership roles. [9:31]
  • Adam Martin, a pharmacist and fitness enthusiast, shares his journey of using fitness to fuel his transformation and improve his studies in pharmacy school. [14:56]
  • Career development and non-traditional income sources. [21:55]
  • Overcoming obstacles to pursue pharmacy school and leadership roles. [9:31]
  • Adam Martin, a pharmacist and fitness enthusiast, shares his journey of using fitness to fuel his transformation and improve his studies in pharmacy school. [14:56]
  • Career development and non-traditional income sources. [21:55]
  • Pharmacy career, personal growth, and mindset. [23:48]
  • Cultivating a positive mindset in challenging situations. [28:59]
  • Adam Martin struggled with depression and anxiety, which led him to Tony Robbins’ work. [31:42]
  • Adam Martin emphasizes the importance of sharing one’s experiences and insights with others, even if they feel they are not good enough or have not figured everything out. [38:17]
  • Gratitude practice and its impact on mental well-being. [43:50]
  • Career growth and mindset shift from pharmacist to entrepreneur. [45:41]
  • Faith, career, and taking risks. [50:54]
  • Following God’s call to leave a job despite lack of plan or logic. [57:26]
  • Career transition from pharmacist to coach. [1:00:06]
  • Faith, career change, and pharmacy. [1:05:24]
  • Identity crisis in pharmacy profession. [1:10:51]
  • The future of pharmacy and entrepreneurship. [1:15:00]
  • Making career changes and preparing for the future. [1:19:39]
  • Adam Martin emphasizes the importance of living with integrity, serving others, and having fun in life. [1:24:36]

Episode Highlights

“Oftentimes we get stuck, we just get stopped by saying I don’t have the resources. I don’t know the right people. I don’t have the money. I don’t have enough time. The question isn’t resources. It’s how resourceful can you be? Because again, all you need is all you have, because all you have is within you now. And that’s a core belief. And if you have that belief, that will drive your actions. And when you take those actions by asking the right question, the quality of questions you ask will directly determine the quality of life that you live. Ask a better question, get a better answer.” –Adam Martin [27:15]

“And here’s the thing that I want to and I really want to drive home is that there are always both two things happening at the same time. A loss and a gain. With everything, even my mom passing away, that was a loss. And there was also a gain, someone doing you wrong, there’s a loss and there’s a gain, getting a raise, there’s a gain, and there’s a loss. You get to choose which of the two you focus on and what you focus on, you’ll feel because we’re focus goes energy flows.” – Adam Martin [28:21]

“It’s about facing it and choosing to see it as it is not worse than it is choosing to see it better than it is because that’s the role of a leader is see the vision while no one else may be able to and then make it the way you want to see it. That’s really leadership is all about making decisions in the hard times. And I’m not talking about being a leader position, per se, I’m talking about being the leader of your life. CEO of you. Because guess what, you get to choose what you focus on. Because there’s always both something gained and something lost at the same time. And what you feel comes from what you choose to focus on.” –Adam Martin [29:42]

“So when you think you’re not good enough to help people, you don’t have to have it all figured out. You just have to be 10% ahead of the person you’re looking to help and committed to constant and never ending improvement. So from that perspective, I wonder how many souls you can pour into, I wonder how many people you can bring hope to.” -Adam Martin [40:17]

“So if you’re in a job and that doesn’t mean I’m telling you to quit, but say could you be focusing on the wrong thing because you’re influenced by other people in your profession. Maybe you’re hanging out in the wrong Facebook groups. Maybe you need to listen to more YFP. Maybe we get more engaged in that community. Maybe you need to instead of listening to people who are complaining and have a life that you don’t want. Maybe you need to connect with people who are living a life through the integrity and character and lifestyle that you actually do want. Because success leaves clues.” Adam Martin [1:29:23]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

Corrie Sanders  00:01

Hi YFP community! Corrie Sanders here host of the Pharmacy Innovators segment of the YFP Podcast. Pharmacy Innovators is designed for pharmacists navigating the entrepreneurial journey. In this series, we feature pharmacy founder stories and strategies that help guide current and aspiring pharmacy entrepreneurs. Today we featured Dr. Adam Martin, known on social media as the Fit Pharmacist. Adam is a pharmacy entrepreneur that recently transitioned out of the retail space after over a decade of practice. Adam has worked with pharmacy schools and organizations across the world on leadership and branding careers since becoming the first pharmacist within the National Speakers Association in 2019. This is the same year that he was recognized as the most influential pharmacist in the profession. Dr. Martin is now a Tony Robbins results coach in 2023. And our conversation is rooted in fitness, faith and finance. He shares many inspirational life sentiments and lessons along the way. Grab a journal and please enjoy my conversation with Dr. Adam Martin.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

Tim Ulbrich  01:04

Does saving 20% for a down payment on a home feels like an uphill battle. It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high student loan debt, meaning that saving 20% for a down payment on a home may take years. We’ve been on a hunt for a solution for pharmacists that are ready to purchase a home loan with a lower down payment and are happy to have found that option with First Horizon. First Horizon offers a professional home loan option aka doctor or pharmacist home loan that requires a 3% downpayment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers, has no PMI and offers a 30 year fixed rate mortgage on home loans up to $726,200. The pharmacist home loan is available in all states except Alaska and Hawaii, and can be used to purchase condos as well. However, rates may be higher, and a condo review has to be completed. To check out the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan. And to start the pre approval process. Visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[EPISODE]

Corrie Sanders  02:15

All right, today we’ve got Dr. Adam Martin with us. Adam, thank you for being here with the YFP community. 

Adam Martin  02:23

Happy to be here. Thank you for the opportunity. 

Corrie Sanders  02:26

So we will start things off pretty easy. Why don’t you just introduce yourself to the audience a little bit, about where you’re from and where you went to pharmacy school.

Adam Martin  02:35

Happy to. So my name is Dr. Adam Martin. I’m known as the Fit Pharmacist. So if you’ve been on social media for the last 10 years, that’s me Mr. Memes, Mr. Positivity, encouragement, how to break through all those sorts of things. And pharmacy has been an incredibly tremendous asset. For me, it’s been a huge, huge opportunity for so many things. And I’m so so grateful for it. And my journey is a little different, because I’m one of those crazy people that actually liked retail. Yes, I worked full time for 10 years in one of those big three letter companies. And I actually had fun, I actually loved it. I mean, if you weren’t there for 10 years, you must like it at some degree, right? So. So that’s kind of where my journey started. And it actually started with rejection. And that’s really what my whole brand was about. It was about encouraging people who were not qualified or didn’t feel qualified, who had some knocks down, they weren’t really set up for success, so to say. So to really encourage them that your start doesn’t mean it’s your end, to encourage you that you may not be feeling like you’re qualified, but you have all that you need. Because all you need is within you now. That you can be resourceful and actually use what was perceived as a setback as a set up for your success. And that’s exactly what the Fit Pharmacist was all about. It was about encouraging people to use what you felt was your mess, to turn it into your message to encourage others to do the same. Because all too often what I found, and what I’ve heard a lot of my clients say is that it’s there’s a lot of imposter syndrome. There’s a lot of do I even belong here? Who am I look at everyone else I feel behind? What am I doing? Do I have a chance and using those perceptions of disqualification as the exact reasons to qualify you to make an impact in people’s lives. And that’s what I started to recognize. The more I got into pharmacy, the more I got involved with social media and a blogging career and writing books and podcasting and speaking, all of which are parts of that journey. But the whole point of that was to let you know that you define what your future is. You have the pen, you get to write the story and you get to choose because the quality of your life is really two things. Its meaning and emotion. And you get to choose, is this the beginning? Or is this the end? So that’s really what what ignited me in that path of helping people that had so much talent, so much wisdom to really tap into that, and unapologetically own their fire so that they can ignite the spirit and other people to go and do the same. And I think that’s what we’re really here to do. And that’s really what is missing from pharmacy. For those who are feeling like there’s something missing in their career, in their in their passion, or maybe they feel like they don’t have one. It’s fulfillment. They may be successful, they may be making a ton of money, they may have the position, they may have all the degrees after their name. Have y’all ever met people that have more letters after their name than in their name, you know, the ones that have more degrees than a thermometer? They have all the success, but they feel empty inside. Because there’s not fulfillment. And that’s really what it is fulfillment. If you look at the word, we are meant to fill others up. And when you’re able to do that, by being willing to be known for who you truly are, the man or woman of God you were made to be, you can do that, fearlessly. Unapologetically. And when you do that, you inspire others to do the same. And that’s really why I’ve always done what I’ve done. Now I just do it on a deeper level as a full time coach working for Tony Robbins. So long story short, here we are.

Corrie Sanders  06:30

Now, there’s so many things that you said that I think we’ll touch on throughout the duration of this conversation. I mean, I think we’ll dive into impostor syndrome, I think we’ll talk about how you defined your life as meaningful throughout different chapters of your career. So let’s start with that initial rejection. Adam, when you said your career started from rejection, what did that look like for you? And then how did that transform into what you’re doing today? 

Adam Martin  06:53

100%. So, back when I knew everything about everything, as a 13 year old, I wanted to be a vet, a veterinarian, because back in the day, I have the astute wisdom that a vet was playing with puppies and getting paid for it. Until I got the bright idea to actually work at a vet hospital and see what actually a veterinarian does. And I got what you call an education, that that’s not what it is. And there’s a lot more to it. And while it was for good reasons, veterinarians put dogs to sleep almost every day. And again, while it’s for good reasons, I just couldn’t deal with that. So it wasn’t what I thought it was. And that’s the first piece of advice that I could give anyone that’s looking for a career change is getting multiple perspectives from people actually doing what you think you want to do. Because you may have your perception, but perception is not reality, especially when you don’t have any experience there. So that was the first thing that I did was I just got experience and where I thought I wanted to go. And it was right around that time. I was coming up to graduate high school. And my mom went in for a routine colonoscopy. And she had turned 50. I remember like it was yesterday and we’re filming this on a Wednesday. Ironically, it was a Wednesday. And I remember I remember it clear as day. Kissed her goodbye, went to school. I said good luck, mom. And I stayed after school in those days. And my dad picked me up after and he was never late. But he was super late that day. And I knew something wasn’t right. I got in the car, and he said mom failed her test. Now, I didn’t know this at the time. But at the point of diagnosis, she was given less than six months to live. She was they caught stage four metastatic colorectal cancer that had spread to her liver, lymph all over, all over her body. But she didn’t. She didn’t accept that. She refused that diagnosis. And she used the power of her mind and her faith to move forward through that. And she had multiple surgeries. And long story short, that’s what led me to pharmacy. Because being on so many medications, we were in the pharmacy most days of the week. And at this point in my life, I didn’t even know what a pharmacist was. We didn’t have any neighbors, no family, friends, nothing. And all I knew being in there picking up meds from a mom is that there’s the smart person in a white coat running around like a chicken with their head cut off trying to help strangers. And the more we were there, the more I saw this compassion that they had. They didn’t know us. We were strangers to them. But they treated us like we were actually family. How’s your mom doing? If you guys can’t get to the pharmacy, you’re not that far away, we’d be happy to drop it off. And it was the perfect timing that really caught this because it was a time when I didn’t know what I was going to do because I realized that I wasn’t going to be paid playing with puppies. And it was about to graduate high school so I had to figure something out. And from that modeling of just interacting with people, that’s what I wanted to do. So I had a very strong why that kept getting deeper and again, mind you at this time, I didn’t even know what a pharmacist did. I just saw this. And I said, I want to do that. So again, to the advice of the that I started to take my own advice, because success leaves clues. So I got some experience to shadow with some pharmacists. And I just saw the interaction, the impact that they had with people. And I thought this is pretty sweet. So I decided I’m going to be a pharmacist. So I did my two years and undergrad, applied to pharmacy school, I was so pumped, I had such a strong why I actually applied to three pharmacy schools, and I got rejected by every single one. And I’ll never forget it. I was sitting on my bunk bed, in my college dorm, like I had to make a decision. Like I really like thought with myself. And I was and also my undergrad advisor at the time said pharmacy is competitive, you may want to pursue and other options, consider some alternatives. And I was getting this advice. But I also had this clear why. And I was wrestling with it. I was like the the writing on the wall, the paper, the quote, “recommendations”, or to do something else, but I have this calling. And I didn’t really understand that at the time. But I decided to go for it again. So that required some summer school. That require an eating what I call some Humble Pie, retaking some classes, really doing whatever you could to up your grades to get more involved to really say I’m committed to this. So I ended up reapplying the next year. And I didn’t get in. But what I did get was waitlisted, which means we gave our offers to everyone we really want to let in. But if they say no, we’ll give you a chance. Let’s just be real. That’s what it means. Okay, so I ended up being dead last person getting into my class, and I was not going to waste the opportunity. And that light bulb clicked for me before pharmacy school started, it was like a couple days before, they have like a two day orientation. And the last thing they said is, by the way, you have to elect the president of your class. And I remember that this was 2008-2009. I still remember that moment, a light bulb went off, because all throughout like I’m an Eagle Scout, oh did all these leadership things. And I didn’t really understand what the purpose was going to be. But in that moment, it all made sense. I was born to be a class president. I didn’t even know what that meant. But I just had this again, this calling. I couldn’t even put a finger to it. So what did I do? Success leaves clues. I modeled the mentors. So I got a mentor who was a pharmacy student two years ahead of me shout out to Jimmy Gill, to attend to the hot step. This guy was awesome. I joined an organization called SNPHA, the Student National Pharmaceutical Association, which I’m a huge fan of their platform is serving the underserved. Shout out to y’all love y’all. Well, after one of the meetings, I went up to him like, Hey, man, I heard about this class president thing. And I really want to do it. But I have no clue because you have to give this five minute talk. And I don’t know what to say. And he says, Yo, this is what you do. You get up and say you’re gonna be a liaison between faculty and students. And when people hear that, they’re gonna say, Oh, he speaks French, and then they’ll vote for you. And that’s what happened. That’s what happened. So I did not waste that opportunity. That was my first like speaking gig, right? But I was so stoked. And I took that job. So seriously, I took notes, I sent weekly emails, I treated like that it was my full time job. And it was awesome. Because from that, I gained a lot of connections. I networked because I would be meeting with professors. I literally was that liaison, don’t ask me how to spell it. But I think I can say it well. But that’s what really helped me in networking initially, was stepping into that role and saying my class is counting on me. And they may not have. I hope they read the emails. But that was the identity that I adopted. And the strongest force in the human personality is the need to stay consistent in how we define ourselves. So all throughout pharmacy school, I really enjoyed that. And I ended up going to seven pharmacy conferences while I was a student. It was incredible. I met people I got to go all over the country, Florida, State of Washington all over it was so fun. And on my rotation my last year Pharmacy school, I was doing a rotation at the FDA. And I got a call from my dean. And I was like, Oh crap, what I do? But what happened was, she said, Adam, you might not know this, but every year for the graduating class, I personally give a scholarship to one male and one female who I believe is going to innovate the profession. And it’s for $10,000. I’m like wow, what a fun fact. That’s awesome. She’s like I’m picking you. So I went from being rejected saying you’re not going to get in to now you’re the most influential pharmacist in that I think that’s going to come out of your class. And again, I said, I’m not going to waste this opportunity. So what happened was, when I got into pharmacy school, I started to find this symbiotic relationship between fitness and pharmacy. And fitness for me began when my mom got diagnosed with cancer. At the time, I was bullied up into that point, most of my life, I was scrawny little kid, I was very quiet, believe it or not, yes, it did exist. But things change, right? So there’s proof positive. But what was through that time that I used fitness to really fuel my transformation. And whenever I got into pharmacy really looking to uplevel, my studies, I found that if you partied and screwed around and didn’t sleep, well, your workouts would suffer, and so would your performance in the classroom. But if you ate well, if you slept, if you did the things you knew were good for you, your workouts would be great. And your studies would also improve. So like I said, it became a symbiotic relationship. And the point of that is once I graduated pharmacy school in 2012, was right around when Instagram was happening. And my friends were like, Dude, you got to get this. And I’m like, Well, what is it? Like? Well, you just pick a name that represents what you’re about. So I was like, Okay, well, I like fitness. I’m a pharmacist, I’ll become the Fit Pharmacist. And that’s literally how it started. Then what happened was, I just started sharing stuff, things that I liked, nutrition, things like that. And when I graduated, I thought that if you’re in health care, you need to be leading by example. You’re promoting health. So you’ve got to walk the talk. And that just made sense to me. Until I realized that it wasn’t very common. Because I started to see people over time after graduation that started getting really stressed out, gaining weight all this stuff resentful. And I was like, What is going on? You’re a genius. How come you’re on the struggle bus. And they started to share with me the things that were in their way. And I started to say, oh, try this, oh, give this a try. And it started to work. So I wondered, I wonder if other people could help benefit from these tips. So I started sharing them on Instagram. And then I started to get a website, and I started to just share these little tips. And my first business was in 2013. Being a certified nutrition consultant, helping people with nutrition. As when I was going through pharmacy school, I wanted extra. So on my off block, I decided to become a certified personal trainer, which I did I pass that exam through American College of Sports Medicine, because I was doing it anyway. So I might as well use that as an asset. Right. And that helped with that first business. And the reason I tell you this, is there was a pharmacist who was starting his entrepreneurial journey, who saw that I was growing the following back in the day, I think it was like 1000 followers. He’s like, Hey, man, I’m starting my journey. I’m looking to get some traction, you have some followers? Can you like, give me a shout out or something? And I was like, well, let’s come up with this. How about how about, since you’re into fitness too, you share your fitness journey. And because I’m a dork, we’ll we’ll call it Fit Pharmacist Friday, and we’ll publish it on Friday, or just be a short little thing about how you define fitness. And we posted it. And I got five DMS in like the first hour of people saying I want to be featured, I want to be featured. And literally from that launched a four year four year blog campaign. Every Friday for four years. Pharmacist students from all over the world, it was friggin awesome. That’s really how my brand and business began, was just creating a platform, a space for people to have a voice, to feel like they mattered. So like give them a place where they can share how they could help other people who felt like they weren’t cut out for it, how they define fitness really giving their perspective of what’s important for them. And that’s really where the social media thing began. And that again, launched into, I wrote for three pharmacy magazines through the years in the United States also in South Africa, led to writing my first book, RX You, which was all about self care for pharmacists, and students grab it on Amazon, then that led to my second book, which helped pharmacy students overcome setbacks and really dominate pharmacy school. And that then led to publishing other books as well with co authoring, and launching a podcast that I still run to this day going on six years. There’s a new episode every week, and then it led to a speaking career. I became a professional speaker through the National Speakers Association. So long story short, those are the highlights but I’ll say I say all that to say, if someone tells you can’t do something, check in with yourself. Ask why am I doing this? Because if you ask how first you’ll always get overwhelmed you will always fall into what’s called the tyranny of how frustration overwhelm, and you’re just going to be stuck. That’s the maybe the right question but asked at the wrong time. The first question you want to ask is, what do I want? And get clear on it? The second question you want to ask is, why is this important? From an emotional connection? not logical. So oh, I want to do this because it’ll create a financial security for my family. That may be true, but get an emotional why to it, because he or she, who has their why can bear almost any how, once you then have a clear outcome, and you have a clear, emotionally driven reason why, then you can ask how because you’ll be pulled towards it, rather than feeling like you’re pushing all the time. And then all of that led to a coaching career. I’ve been coaching, like I said, since 2013, with nutrition, and that morphed into mindset and psychology, of really helping people get out of their own way, and live a life that was purpose driven and fulfilled on their terms, regardless of what they’ve gone through. And I’m not just picking this crap out of books, I’ve lived this stuff. I’ve coached hundreds of people through this, now 1000s, to really create a life on their terms, all over the world. And it’s really, really fulfilling. And as we’re filming this, as I mentioned, I think you’re my 13th Call today. And I mean, I’ve been up since 330. And you can hear, and I don’t even drink coffee. So it’s just fueled by passion. It’s fueled by passion. So once you get clear on those things that are really put you in a position where you can be of service to other people, because that’s really where fulfillment comes from. fulfillment is that you’re meant to fill others up. And when you can align with your God given purpose, it positions you to co mission with God. So to carry out the purposes to do that. And that’s really what I’m all about is helping people do that, too. 

Corrie Sanders  21:55

Yeah. And Adam, that is, I mean, such an inspirational story. And it’s so amazing to see how many unique facets there have been to your career. I mean, before I even dive into the next question, I just want to say I’m so I’m so sorry to hear about your mom. But it’s such a strong testament to her faith, and to your faith, to be able to take an event like that, and really changed the trajectory of your life in a very positive manner. And to be able to give back to so many others in a meaningful way. And to use that really is fuel. So I’m so sorry to hear that. But I’m so just amazed by the outcome. And I’m just I respect you so much for how you’ve turned that into something that’s so positive in your life. I think there’s a lot of different facets that I have questions about throughout your career. And the first one is you’ve you’ve dabbled in, in sports and fitness and speaking in various different engagements. What did that look like, in parallel with your community pharmacy position? So is that something that you were doing on the side while you still held this community pharmacy job? How did you split those incomes? What did the development of these supplemental non traditional incomes look like, while you were serving in that community pharmacy role? 

Adam Martin  23:10

Beautiful questions, and thank you so much for the kind words really appreciate that. And my belief is nothing has any meaning except the meaning you choose to give it. And while she was an amazing woman, still to this day, I hear people that she was a principal of a school, and she’s been gone 19 years. And still to this day, this just happened last month, I kid you not. I was at dinner with someone. And they said we were just in Florida. And we met someone we used to work with. And we mentioned your name. And they used to work with your mom, and they went on this half hour story. This happens all the time. It’s incredible. So the memory keeps going. So I really appreciate that. Thank you. And to answer your question. So I’ve I was I started full time pharmacy in 2012. I believe it was July. And actually no, it was and here’s how I know. Back then, before corporate realized that this was a liability, what we would do – and thanks to my partner for coming up with this with this idea. The partner that shared the pharmacy with me – is the idea was if we work three full time shifts, will have a week vacation every other week. So back then we would work I think it was 8am to 10pm. And we did three of those in a row. Now. I’ll be real the first couple months was rough. But after that it was normal, you adapt. So I remember it was July because that like a couple of weeks after I started the state insurance changed to the preferred insurance that my pharmacy that I worked for at the time had it. So there were about 30 to 50 transfers a day for a brand new pharmacist at a high volume store. So I remember my first full day I worked. I went at 8am and I was there until like 100-130. So that’s how I got fast at verifying prescriptions because I didn’t want to do that again. Right. To answer your question. Yes, I did this on the side. Although it wasn’t at the pharmacy. So that’s what that schedule allowed is we would do three full days. And then I would literally have a week vacation every other week, which gave me that, that bandwidth to do that. So that’s kind of how that foundation started. And again, when you’re launching a rocket, 90% of the fuel is on takeoff. So once I got the systems in place, once I got these things down, then that really through that time, then it became easier to to grow and scale that from there. So yeah, I did the writing. I did all that sort of stuff on the side on those days that I wasn’t on the bench. And then with the fitness part, yeah, I’ve been so I’m a lifetime drug free, natural bodybuilder. I know that’s an oxymoron, a pharmacist that’s drug free, but it’s true. I do tested shows. So I’ve competed four times. And I did compete four times as working as a full time community pharmacist at a high volume store. The most scripts that we did on a Monday, when I left was 651 with one pharmacist. I’ve checked in with them since I’ve left and that’s expanded dramatically. So God bless them.

Corrie Sanders  25:59

Mm hmm. And did you have any goals in mind with okay, this is something that I want to take on my own. At some point outside of a community pharmacist, were you running those things in tandem hoping to pay off student loans? Did you have any thought as to what the end goal is? Or were you just in a state of built building and growth and development? And you were just writing that out for however long you felt comfortable? Great question. So I paid off student loans very quickly, I think it was just a few years after graduation. So that was kind of over and done with. And in terms of, you know, what does this look like? Where am I going? I love being a pharmacist, I was really good at it. 20 Because of that, that growth and the impact, 2019 they had the pharmacy awards. So 2019 I was I was honored to be named the most Influential Pharmacist nationwide. So that was that was really cool. And the reason I say that is again, if someone tells you you can’t do something, you’re not cut out for it. Tada. Right. So as soon as, as long as you have that, why, and you put in that work, and you’re consistent, and you just innovate. And that’s really what my I guess you could say my secret sauce is through this process is just being obsessed with how can we do this better? And how can I be resourceful? Oftentimes we get stuck, we just get stopped by saying I don’t have the resources. I don’t know the right people. I don’t have the money. I don’t have enough time. The question isn’t resources. It’s how resourceful can you be? Because again, all you need is all you have, because all you have is within you now. And that’s a core belief. And if you have that belief, that will drive your actions. And when you take those actions by asking the right question, the quality of questions you ask will directly determine the quality of life that you live. Ask a better question, get a better answer. What can I do to be resourceful with this? Simple questions. That’s how we make the shift. So that’s kind of what I what I did was doing that on the side. But to answer your question of, you know, what was my vision for this? I just love doing what I did. I genuinely loved it. I know that sounds crazy. Being in you know, full time community. And I have the same stuff, staffing, all the stuff that everyone talks about on the uplifting Facebook pages. I went through all that stuff. I still loved it. Because of my attitude. Yes, things were burning down all around me. And here’s the thing that I want to and I really want to drive home is that there was always both two things happening at the same time. A loss and a gain. With everything, even my mom passing away, that was a loss. And there was also a gain, someone doing you wrong, there’s a loss and there’s a gain, getting a raise, there’s a gain, and there’s a los. You get to choose which of the two you focus on and what you focus on, you’ll feel because we’re focus goes energy flows. So yes, all the things are happening. And when I say this, I don’t mean be blindly ignorant. I don’t mean be like now what do you call it blindly optimistic. The thing that I always say is, if it’s raining outside, I’m not telling you to go out with your eyes closed, and say it’s sunny, it’s sunny, it’s sunny! It’s raining, you’re wet! Get an umbrella! And while you’re out there, recognize that now you don’t have to water your gardens because it’s raining. So you just saved yourself an hour of time. You don’t have to wash your car and you just got a free car wash and that work you’ve been putting off because you had FOMO fear of missing out on the sunshine. Well guess what? Now you get to do it without FOMO there’s three wins right off the bat. So it’s not about being blindly optimistic. It’s about facing it and choosing to see it as it is not worse than it is choosing to see it better than it is because that’s the role of a leader is see the vision while no one else may be able to and then make it the way you want to see it. That’s really leadership is all about making decisions in the hard times. And I’m not talking about being a leader position, per se, I’m talking about being the leader of your life. CEO of you. Because guess what, you get to choose what you focus on. Because there’s always both something gained and something lost at the same time. And what you feel comes from what you choose to focus on.

Corrie Sanders  30:25

And Adam, that’s so well said with just your perspective on life, your perspective on problem, your perspective on challenges. And then also it sounds like how you’re receiving information, and the lens that you’re receiving information through, or maybe being in tune to the lens of others that might be giving you information and being cognizant of that information as well. So it just says a lot to your personality and your outlook on life. Do you think that that’s something that you’ve always had within you? Or did you use your pharmacy career as a platform to be able to build upon that positivity? So I guess my, my takeaway question here is the pharmacists that might feel like they’re stuck in these negative positions, or these downward spirals or a headspace that they can’t seem to tap out of – how do you advise them to come out of that hole? How do you advise them to change their mindset? Is this a question that can even be simply answered? I don’t know. But you’ve done such a good job of just cultivating your own positive mindset, any advice for our listeners that might feel like they can’t claw their way out at the moment?

Adam Martin  31:30

Beautiful question. And oftentimes, people think that they’re stuck, because there’s something wrong with them, that there’s something missing, that they’re broken, that they need fixed. There’s nothing wrong with you, you’re in conditions. And again, you get to choose. And I’m not saying this from some superior place. I’m saying this from a kid that was bullied most of his life. I’m saying this from a kid who was in an incredibly abusive relationship for two years, which led me to a very deep depression. And that’s actually what led me to Tony Robbins. So I was in a very deep dark depression in my life in 2017. And that’s actually how I got into Tony Robbin’s world. And funnily enough, I have the book right here, Awaken the Giant Within. I read this book, like my life depended on it, because it did. And in this book, it listed the power of focus that’s directed by the questions that you choose to ask. And it is a resource called the Morning Power Questions. And I was so desperate at this time in my life, no joke, I remember this, I would wake up in a state of anxiety, because because here’s what happened. I, I was, I would always wake up in the state of anxiety, to the point where it would be a like a literal panic attack, hard breathing, all this sort of stuff. So in my mind, I linked up that sleep led to anxiety. So for six months, while I was in the middle of prepping for a bodybuilding show, working full time as a pharmacist, running two businesses, I was getting three to four hours of sleep at night, because my brilliant brain came up with this distinction, that if you wake up, you’re in anxiety. So if you don’t sleep, you won’t have to worry about it. So you can imagine how fun that was. I’ll never forget it. Because in the morning, when I would wake up in that anxiety attack, it would take me about two hours to get myself together, not to feel good, to get out of the door. And those questions basically said, where focus goes, energy flows. And that’s directed by a question. So I thought, I’m going to really do this. So I didn’t just stare at the page. I said those questions out loud. What are you grateful for today? What are you happy about? And the caveat I gave is, I would have to pick an answer. And say it out loud for something that was true for me, that happened in the last 24 hours, because it forced me to look and seek and you shall find, ask and it shall be given. So when I went through these seven simple questions in 5-10 minutes, I actually felt better. It was the first time where I felt like I was picking myself up out of this hole of depression. And from reading this book, I still have the highlights the note cards from when I was in this place in my life. I thought if this guy can have this impact from a book, I’ve got to meet him. So 2018 was my comeback year. I went massive action on personal development, went to Tony Robbins conference, Unleash the Power Within. That was when Grant Cardone and one of the guys in sales, had his growth conference. 2018 10x Con, once of that, on and on and on massive action decided to become a professional speaker. And then that next year from all that work is when I became named that most Influential Pharmacist. So you’re in these situations, how are you going to use them? How are you going to use them to grow because you get to choose? Is this the end? Or is this the beginning of something that you’ve never thought possible before? So to the to your question about how do you how do you come back from this? If you’re feeling stuck? Well, what if this isn’t you being pushed down? What is what if this is your opportunity? What if this adversity is an opportunity in disguise? What if this stressing is really a blessing in disguise? What if you can take everything that you thought that you can count out, but it’s actually the exact things that you can count on. Because by going through that depression, by going through all of that crap, I now coach people to overcome it, who might feel stuck, and don’t have the courage, because oftentimes, when we don’t believe in ourselves, sometimes we have to lean on the faith of others in us until we can lean on our own faith, to move forward to continue to pursue, to actually see that maybe we can do this. And that’s really the thing. It’s questions. We have this opportunity, we’re not happy in our job. And we think and we there’s an opportunity to change or maybe go to a YFP conference, or do something like that. And we think, what if I fail, though? What if I look like a fool? What if I show up and everyone laughs at me? What if, what if I’m kidding myself? Well, what if it does work out? What if you do pull it off? What if you’re the smartest person in the room that has something to offer that you didn’t even recognize, I call this being blind to your brilliance. And I know it because I was trapped in it for a very long time. Oftentimes, we discount compliments, because we think that people are just being nice. So here’s a tip that I want to give to your listeners for how to identify something that you may have been blind to. If you hear compliments from people, it’s very easy to say, Oh, they’re just saying that because they’re my family, because they’re my colleagues and this and that. So there’s four categories of people that are in your life, you have your friends, you have your family, you have your colleagues or co workers. And then you have random people that you meet for the first time. So looking at those four groups of people, just literally take a moment. And don’t just think this, physically write it out. Because what you write you invite, and go through each group and say, what are what are compliments that I’ve heard over and over from my family? What are compliments that my friends have told me over and over? What are some some nice words of encouragement that I’ve heard from my colleagues or co-workers? And if I’m out at a party at a social event, a pharmacy conference, and I meet people for the first time, or we’re doing a podcast meeting for the first time, and we give compliments? That sound familiar, right? We can say, wait a minute, there’s a pattern here. All four groups of people who don’t know each other, said the same thing! Maybe it’s true. It’s so simple, but I can’t tell you how freeing and encouraging and enlightening this simple little exercise is to possibly reveal that everything that you’ve been looking for outside of yourself has been within you the whole time, the hero you’ve been looking for has been within. The person you’ve been waiting for you to come save you has been you, because no one is coming to save you. No one’s coming to save you. Jesus saved your soul. But you must take part in your own rescue. And when you do, you can then use that for the platform of a business of a brand of a book of a course and asking these powerful questions. What have you survived? What have you had to build a life raft for? Because if we’re being honest here, right now, you are not where you want to be. And you’re not where you used to be. And that space, you’re in between holds value for someone who is stuck, where you came from, who would die to have the insights, the wisdom, the knowledge that you now have, which leads a lot of people to say, sounds good, Adam, but I don’t have it all figured out. I don’t have my whole life that you know, I’ve got a lot to learn, and I don’t feel ethically qualified to help someone unless I’ve gone through it all. Well, here’s the reality. Look, this is Book of Life that we’re fictitiously talking about. Let’s say that your book of life has 30 chapters. And right now your quote “only” in chapter five, and you think, Oh, I’m not qualified because there’s so many chapters to go. Well, here’s the real talk. You’re on chapter five out of 30. And you’re discounting the things that you can count on, because there are people stuck in chapter one who are too terrified to even consider chapter two. But because you’re in chapter five, you’ve gone through chapter one and chapter two and chapter three and chapter four and chapter five. So you’re actually perfectly positioned because you’re close enough that the person you’re helping can relate to you and they don’t feel far removed. Because if you waited until you were chapter thirty, if you waited until you were perfect, you would actually disqualify people, because they’d see you and say, See, that guy’s perfect, I can’t resonate with him. The thing that you’re trying to make perfect is actually if you got that would disqualify you from connecting to the person that you used to be. So when you think you’re not good enough to help people, you don’t have to have it all figured out. You just have to be 10% ahead of the person you’re looking to help and committed to constant and never ending improvement. So from that perspective, I wonder how many souls you can pour into, I wonder how many people you can bring hope to. I wonder how much impact you can have from the imprint that God put on your life, not for you, but so that you can steward it and give to others, the skills, the abilities, even the trauma that you have. Those weren’t curses! Those were gifts. And they’re not for you, period, they’re for you comma, to steward and develop so that you can help others from your gifts to lead them to theirs. Because if you’re in a dark room, and a light turns on, what are you going to do? You’re going to move towards the light. And the closer you move towards the light, you can see a reflection of the light that’s been within you the whole time, the light you’ve been praying for outside of yourself, it’s been within you the whole time. Because all you have is all you need. An all you need is within you now. So perhaps the place that you’re in right now in life, perhaps you were created for such a time as this, perhaps you were perfectly positioned to help the younger version of yourself. Perhaps you were perfectly positioned to give more than you ever thought possible. Because the secret to living is giving.

Corrie Sanders  42:17

So our listeners, I want everyone to pause that and just rewind it back when you need a boost of confidence. Why you are where you are, what that looks like and what your intention is, and your purpose can be looking forward. Adam, that was so inspirational. And I think I could not have said that in a more beautiful way in terms of people taking the things in their life, whether they’re perceived as positive or negative, and how they can relate to past versions of themselves and develop them into the future person that they were meant to be. So thank you for saying that. And I want everyone to go relisten to that when you really need a boost of confidence.

Adam Martin  42:53

That’s all from the heart so that it’s just it’s all the truth. And I think that’s what resonates, because it’s it’s not made up like when you hear that are like yes, that is true. That is the truth. So what’s stopping us? The only two things that will ever stop you. And here’s another tip for your listeners, the only two things that will ever stop you is fear and anger. And the good news. The reason I’m telling you that is that the antidote to both is the same. It’s gratitude. Now, I’m not just saying pick random crap on grateful to be alive. I’m talking about real stuff. Because when you’re grateful, it’s impossible to be angry. When you’re grateful. It’s impossible to be fearful. And if those are the only two things that mess you up, and the antidote to both is the same. You can become invincible literally by living in a state of gratitude. Now, here’s the trick. It’s not just saying I’m grateful for this, you have to feel it. So I came up with this thing. Back in my time of anxiety that I mentioned. I was like, I’m sick of this. I’ve heard this gratitude stuff over and over. But it sounds like a bunch of phooey. But let me actually try it. So I woke up this morning, like years ago, and I was in my bed and I started to feel this anxiety wash over me. So it was like, Okay, everyone says gratitude. Let me actually try this. And I was like, what if I didn’t try it? What if I experienced it? This is a true story. So I was lying in bed, and I thought what can I be grateful for right now? Well, I knew that it was like cold outside. So I felt my blanket. And I just literally started physically from the spot I was in and I lit I physically felt my blanket. And I thought I’m grateful for the soft blanket. I spoke it, I felt it and I saw evidence that was real. And I was like, Oh, that is soft. I’ve always wanted this really awesome, luxurious bed. And I have it! So I thought I’m grateful for this comfy bed and I rolled around slightly and I felt it. Well, I’ve always wanted a house! And I was in my home. I’m in my dream home. Well I always wanted a master bedroom. So I looked around, and I saw that I saw that I was in this bedroom. And I felt the air on my face. I looked around and recognized I was in my dream home. And I had like, I’m so grateful to be in a quiet neighborhood. And I was just silent and listen to the silence. I call it a gratitude ripple in the now, which stands for grin, G R I N, you start with where you are, and then you ripple outwards from that place. And then it was I’m grateful for being close to an awesome city. I’m grateful for being in Austin close to work, my my family lives, I’m grateful to be in a state. I’m grateful to be in this country and outwards from there. So if you start physically where you are, it’s not just words, it’s physically connecting and experiencing the gratitude that will make you invincible, it’s impossible to be grateful and fearful. It’s impossible to be grateful and angry at the same time. So if you’re grateful first, you can’t lose, because that’s the only two things that will stop you from what you said rewinding and listening to the dose of truth, and really embracing those things. So now we know not only how to get into that, but also what will stop you. So now you’re fully equipped. And here’s one other caveat again, just to be aware of, oftentimes, when we when we talk of fear, there’s lots of different types of fear, fear of success or failure, all this stuff. Well, every human being has two fears. And I’m telling you this, because if you’re listening and you’re a human, you resonate with these. How the mind plays tricks is that you think that oh, this is just me everyone else has it figured out? No. You thought that in pharmacy school too. And you found out quick, everyone else was farther behind the you, let’s be real, right? So the two fears that every human being has, is the fear of not being enough, and the fear of not being lovable. So when you hear that, and you’re like, Oh, he’s reading my mind, it’s because we all have those fears. And when you’re grateful for how far you’ve come, that’ll help with that, if you want to and one of the real one of the slippery slopes to getting into these pits is comparison. You may have heard Comparison is the thief of joy. But it depends how you define comparison. If you compare yourself to other people, yeah. What if instead, you compared yourself to how far you’ve come? What if instead, you compared yourself to what you’ve learned? What if instead you compare it to how much resilience and persistence you’ve sculpted, since you started, that’ll have a quite a different feeling won’t it? When you give yourself that gift, because it’s true, it’s not make believe positive self talk. It’s just reality. Again, all stemming from asking a more powerful question.

Corrie Sanders  47:52

And two observations there. One I will give you credit for it sounds like throughout the duration of your pharmacy career, you were always taking action in some way, shape, or form that aligned with your why. And that is something that we hone in on a lot. I’ve mentioned this numerous times on the Innovator Series of the YFP Podcast is before you make a career transition, think about what is your why because as you alluded to earlier, there’s a million reasons and a million people that are going to tell you that you can’t do what you want to do. But if you’re aligned with your why and your personal reason, and you are strong and steadfast in your mission and your goals, that will keep you moving forward. And that is all that matters. So I want to give credit where credit is due to you too is not only being grateful and having gratitude for where you are and where you stand at each moment, but taking action in that grateful presence. And maybe it’s the gratitude that allows you to move forward as well too. But you have always been taking action so that when you’re in those mental funks, or when you’re in those lows, or how you ever we want to describe that, you have been building a repository of skills that you can fall back on or that you can lean into, to help pivot you into the next chapter. And so I want to give you credit with that and say to the pharmacists that are maybe in in these ruts, take action and take grateful action, like you’re speaking to find something that you enjoy, and start tapping into those areas of your mind or your skill set or brush those off or whatever it is. Because in order to get yourself out of those positions, you ultimately will need to pivot in some way shape or form. If you want to stay in pharmacy, it’s having that skill set and having some kind of polished skill that you can move back on to or that you can progress forward. And so Adam give you a lot of credit again for constantly developing yourself and for taking steps to move yourself forward. And then also just having that mindset of positivity and strength and reflecting on what you’re grateful for. And it sounds like you do a lot of reading and journaling and that is certainly integral to my daily routine now as well. And there’s a lot to be said for the written word, but just two observations from my perspective of not only that mindset, but taking some action behind it. So now I kind of want to flow into the next state of your career, it sounds like so you tapped into speaking, you had all of these wonderful skills that you had been building during your time as a community pharmacist. And I think I listened to it on another podcast where you said you were giving this speech and you were all of a sudden, just in this flow state? Is that when you defined yourself as an entrepreneur, is that when you started seriously, considering stepping back from that traditional pharmacist role? Can you let us into your mind a little bit about that transition from your community pharmacy career to where you are now? 

Corrie Sanders  50:46

Yeah, absolutely. And I’m really glad that you said you put in the work. Because we’re about to go with the story a lot of people get twisted. So I want to make this very clear. Faith is central to everything that I do. And this is I’m just going to start with this. How we define faith is huge. And again, I’m not putting beliefs on anybody. But what I will share with you, is that oftentimes we think that faith is like a quadrant of life. It’s a checkbox, like I went to church, I did this and that check. Faith is actually not meant to be a priority in your life. Let me say that, again, faith is not meant to be a priority in your life. Faith is meant to be central to all priorities in your life. And that’s what leads up to this next chapter. So what you said is important, again, is that you put in the work, because there’s there’s extremes, there’s all work and you know, I’m on my own faith and all this. And then there’s also God’s got it. I’m just gonna sit on the couch and just pray. Neither are correct! Faith without works is dead. One thing that I came up with over the years that I’ll just shamelessly continue to share is yes, Jesus take the wheel. But you’ve got to put your foot on the gas! You’ve got to put the gas in the tank! Let’s go! Right?  So whenever I want to my first National Speakers Association meeting, a friend of mine invited me he’s like, Hey, man, I think you’ll love this. And at that time, I didn’t know what speakers were, I thought I had no clue. So I went to this meeting. And I was blown away. I was blown away, because these were incredibly positive people that genuinely cared for people. And they had all these awesome backgrounds. And they were genuinely encouraging one another. And they were sharing stories. And you could just tell it was genuine. And I was like, wow, this is amazing. There’s no backstabbing, none of that. So I thought, this is a career? You can do this? I had no clue. But I then this is where that “blind to your brilliance” thing came in. Because I was I was talking to these speakers, and they literally would say, first time I met them, you’re a national speaker.  You’ve got a gift, blah, blah, blah. And these people weren’t recruiting me. They had nothing to gain. So I thought, why are they giving me these compliments? And then I thought, Where have I heard this before? And then I went through the tool that I just shared with you, in that moment is where I came up with that tool, true story. And I thought, wait a minute, everyone, my whole life has been saying the same thing. But I was discounting it, because I thought, oh, that’s just my professors being nice. Those are just my colleagues being nice. That’s just my family being nice. That kid at the party when I was going riffing, doing what I did with the confidence thing, he was just drunk, being nice, or whatever it was, right? And I thought all these people said the same thing. Maybe there’s a thing here. And then to what I said earlier, I started having doubts. But who am I? I’m not I don’t have training in this. So it was right around that time when I surrendered my life to Jesus Christ. And that’s where my, that’s where my faith journey really started to take off. And in that moment, when I came back, I remember clear as day I was in my apartment at the time, and I just got to my knees in prayer. And I said, God, I feel like the speaking thing is like a gift, but I have no clue what to do. And I have a job I love I don’t know. What do I do? And that was the first time I audibly heard God’s voice. And he said, Go speak. Crazy stuff. Crazy stuff. So working full time for a corporate retail pharmacy, if y’all know about the scheduling, meaning you don’t get to change your shifts, and if you want to vacation, from where I worked, you had to give a year and a half notice for a week vacation. True story. And if you wanted to shift a few days, oftentimes you had to give months notice, that was often rejected, but I digress. With that, in the at the time, NSA, National Speakers Association, offered the professional speaker certification. This was before COVID I think they’ve taken it away since. But in order to do that you had to give 15 paid talks in a 12 month period to a room of 15 or more people. So try doing that with a full time retail pharmacist schedule that you can’t move. Well, God moves. So I declare that was my one goal that year, I hired a professional speaking coach. And that was the other thing, tying money into it. It was a God situation, but long story short, this woman was brought into my life. And she ended up being one of the most influential speakers still to this day in NSA. When I was at National Convention two years ago, in Nashville, they had Hall of Fame speakers on stage showcased as keynotes and stuff. And I think there were like 12 or 15 of them. 10 of them referenced her by name in credit, and this one was brought in my life. That ain’t an accident. So this woman is brought in my life. And she’s like, Yeah, you you know, I do speaking seminars, you fly out to St. Louis, it’s two days, and it’s seven grand. Didn’t have that, like laying in my back pocket. So I thought about it. And I was like, this is when we step up. And I never, I’ll never forget, I remember recording this this video, because I do Instagram reels and stuff. On my stories just behind the scenes. I remember while going on a walk on the treadmill in the morning in St. Louis telling people, I’m here because I have a calling from God, I know I have the skill and also don’t know, I also know I don’t know what to do with it. But I’m willing to go into debt over it. And I’m not promoting debt, but I’m just saying Money talks, right? And if you really believe in something, and you know, you can make something of it. You got to be willing to put your money where your mouth is. There’s double puns right there. Right. So I did that. And I hired this professional speaker. And that whole year, things lined up, you’d like you wouldn’t believe this one month. And I ended up scheduling 20 talks, because you want to always overshoot because things happen, people cancel. And that did happen a couple times. I ended up becoming a professional in 10 months instead of 12. But but this one month, I’ll never forget, it was so busy with holidays and vacations and all this stuff. There was only one day that I had off. And I found an opportunity to speak. And it was at that day at that time. That doesn’t just happen. So God was in that whole thing. So that was that whole year fast forward. And you know, living life, blah, blah, blah -buy my house true story. Bought my house in COVID 2020. Long story there another God thing, but I’ll fast forward to this. Beginning of 2021, I hear God for the second time. You will not be in this job this time next year. Huh?  God, what’s that mean? Silence And I’m like, oh, I must have misheard, right. So because I’m in a job I love and making good money, I’m making good impact. It’s all good. And I just bought a house, right? So I’m like, Oh, it’s fine. So I just ignored it. Well, as time went on, God started to poke. And he started to poke deeper and starting to poke more frequently. And it started become very apparent that I was called to leave. It didn’t make any sense. To be honest, I was very angry with God. How could you lead me from this huge, amazing impact of being rejected to given 10s of 1000s of people hope all over the world. Now you want me to walk away, whaaat? True story. I know this sounds crazy, but it’s the truth. I went on a walk in the fall, I’m pretty sure was October. And it was raining, pouring down rain and I went in a walk because I had my breaking point like it was clear I had to make a decision. I walked in the rain yelling at the sky. It’s true. I can’t make it up. And I got back and I surrendered. I fell to my knees and said You want me to quit fine. It made no logical sense. I had no plan whatsoever. I didn’t like quit the job at the time. But mentally I surrendered and said okay, I will obey. I will obey. I’ll do this. I don’t know how or what. But I surrender my intention. Not too long after out of the blue. Oh, double pun there! You’ll hear why in a second. I get a text from a dude who I had connected with who went to my alma mater University of Pittsburgh School of Pharmacy. And he had been following my work on Facebook, Instagram with the Fit Pharmacist, and he texted me and he says, Hey, man, I don’t and long. So another caveat a couple years ago, he had a grand opening. It was actually March of 2020 when he opened his pharmacy two weeks before the lockdown. And I thought it was pretty badass for a pharmacist to open an independent pharmacy without insurance. So I went in it just so happened that was my one day of the week off it things have shifted with the work schedule since I originally mentioned. So I thought I’m off that day. I’ll go you know, wish them grand opening. Little did I know that planted a little seed. Because fast forward to this time. He said, Hey Adam, I don’t know if you know if you’re still in the area, but we’re we’re doing really well and we’re expanding. We’re looking to hire on a part time pharmacist. Do you have any recommendations? I was not intending to join at all, but I had a network of pharmacists, and I didn’t want to make some inappropriate recommendations. So I said, let’s meet up. Let me hear what you’re looking for and I’ll see if I know anyone. So we’ll meet up at Panera and he’s tell him you know, saying, well tell me about the Fit Pharmacist, what exactly do you do with like speaking and coaching and stuff? So as I’m telling him my skills with marketing and innovation and all this, he’s leaning in, and he says, I don’t know if you’re looking for a job, but your skills are exactly what we’re looking for. Can’t make this part up. I said, Well, what would that job entail? What’s What’s the job description? Never forget this. Hands me a pen, and says, you write it. Now you tell me a pharmacy job where they tell you to write your job description. What the heck is this? So now I had no intention of doing this. God’s at work. And I say, Well, I love speaking and I love coaching. I know you don’t do speaking stuff. But if I could do like 50% coaching, or I’m sorry, 50. I was in marketing, like I really love marketing, growing innovation. If I could do like 50% marketing, and tie in coaching and then do some bench work as a pharmacist. That’d be cool. Done. Huh?What pharmacists job is that?! So I ended up working part time from this guy. And again, I quit in December of 2021. After just buying a house with a pharmacist mortgage, no clue what’s coming. This is a startup company. There’s no guarantees, working part time, full faith. Full faith. Still to this day. It’s the number one LinkedIn post I’ve ever made was my last day working my 10 year career. It was crazy. And it was crazy faith. So I started this job, and it was incredible. So the reason I said it was a double punch out of the blue is it was Blueberry Pharmacy. If y’all know Kyle McCormack shout out, bro. That is a literallyis utopia, pharmacy. Anything that you can think of with retail pharmacy, that gives you a headache that you hate does not exist. They’re both on the side of the pharmacist and on the side of the patient. No insurance, over 1000 generics and the prices are wild. Like incredible. It doesn’t make any sense. It’s crazy. So I’m hired to do this. So I start that in 2022. Amazing, like phenomenal. One of the most up true story my two favorite pharmacists of all time, is Tim Ulbrich and Kyle McCormack. Their level of character is unmatched. Like I’ve never seen anything like it. And that’s withstood years of watching behind the scenes at their worst all that stuff. Strongest character I’ve ever seen in my life. Those are like I love both those guys to death. So and I would I have told Kyle like you remind me of Tim and I told Tim you remind me Kyle this is like awesome, right? Working with this. And the mission is to help people who don’t have insurance, get medications for cancer, MS. and all kinds of other things. When insurance is charging them $120 a month and we’re getting it sold them for 80 bucks, same exact thing. Same exact manufacturer, all that stuff. Crazy. So I’m joining them to do marketing. So long story short, we 5x Google reviews, I don’t know of any pharmacy that has above a three star on Google reviews, we have 128 five star Google reviews. That don’t happen, go find that somewhere! Don’t exist. There’s nothing like it. And our slogan of Blueberry was “Welcome to Different” because we did things differently. It was incredible, amazing culture. And I could go on and on about it. But that’s what led me into coaching because I was shifting with the Fit Pharmacist, I’m like, I really want to coach, I really want to get inside with people and help them break through what’s stopping them. Get through these limiting beliefs really tap into their God given potential. So they can live life on purpose for a purpose and stop settling. So I got deeper into coaching. And I had a Tony Robbins coach myself at this time. And I was wrestling, I was trying to change the business. What’s the next step? And it hit me like a lightning bolt. I’m going to all these Tony Robbins conferences, I’m using these products. I’m paying for a coach, why don’t I become a coach. And it all made sense. All of it made sense. And so I decided to apply to become a Tony Robbins results coach in the fall. And just fast forward. There’s about a 4% acceptance rate. And this is a three month interview to get in. And this isn’t like you meet with someone and a month later you have another meeting. It is literally a full time job to do this interview. And they do wild stuff like mind blowing and there’s three phases. So you’ve got to get in, you got to pass the interview. You’ve got to do all these background checks in this. You get in and there’s a phase one, if you pass and these are by the way at the top 1% of coaches in the world watching you like a hawk on and off the screen. If you pass, you’re invited to phase two, if you pass, you’re invited to phase three. And then if you pass that you’re invited for the opportunity to become a coach. So that’s what I did. And I was like, I love this. And I was doing full time coaching and part time pharmacy. But there was this calling this was there’s a lot more to this, but I’m gonna fast forward, there was this calling to become more and to be a coach. So I was talking with Kyle and he was expanding. And he’s like, Hey, man, we’re getting busier. I’m like, Yeah, it’s like the marketing is working. It’s like, it’s like we do its work. Right? And he is all the team wasn’t me. It was the team. Like, there’s Ravi, there’s Kyle. There’s all the students, like it’s a team environment. It’s incredible. Doesn’t exist anywhere else. Mind blowing, check it out. BlueberryPharmacy.com. Go there. Right? I digress. But he said, You know, I’m thinking about this, like, Well, man, I really had a great time with coaching. And I actually think that I’m called to do that full time. So he’s looking for me to transition from part time to full time. And I’m basically saying, I don’t I’m going the other way. Yeah. So it was like, well, one of the things that we always taught me as an Eagle Scout is never leave somewhere without making it better than you found it. Never leave somewhere without making it better than you found that so I thought I can’t just leave because they don’t really teach marketing in pharmacy school, right. And it’s such a strong mission. He’s such a great guy, I can’t just leave. So I was like, I need to find a replacement. And thank God, there was a pharmacy student on rotation, phenomenal guy, entrepreneurial spirit. And he was looking to actually sign on with Rite Aid. And both Kyle and I were like, nah, nah, don’t do that. So we’re talking to him. We’re just being honest. Like, you know, tell us what your goals are really understanding, getting to know what he’s about. And so we talked with him, like, Hey, man, I actually would like you to take over like, you’ve got the skills, let me train you all this stuff. So we ended up making the decision. Again, it’s you’re coming out of school going all in on a startup, still, it’s a risky move, but he did it. I tell that point of the story. Because he had a mentor, he had Kyle as his mentor, he had us to support him. And he made that move. He already signed with Rite Aid before he graduated, and then he ended up changing. So I’m going to Blueberry appreciate the opportunity. All this. A month later, Rite Aid goes bankrupt. How about that? How about that? God continues! Right? No, I ended up working my last shift of August of 2023. And I was full time I think it was in May. So now I’m working with 93 clients all over the country. I also am a business results trainer, helping businesses from, hey, I have an idea. I don’t know what to do to hey, we’re making 100 million, we want to turn it into 200 million next year. So I not only train the owner, I also get to train their team. And what training is, is it’s combining coaching and speaking. It’s my playground, it’s awesome. I’m able to have all the So long story short, God guided me through this. God directed me he called me to walk away from a career, everything that I shared. Adam, it’s time to walk away. It’s time to change your identity. Because your identity isn’t linked to a role. It isn’t linked to a job. It’s who you are in Jesus, it’s who you are in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Apart from me, you can do nothing. So that was a real coming to Jesus moment, and laying down everything that I thought I had built. But it was really him the whole time. And really surrendering to that and talk about a faith leap. And here’s the thing that we’re understanding ends is where faith begins. Because that move made no logical sense to anybody. True story. When I posted I’m leaving pharmacy, I had my professors text me to make sure I was okay. I had a professor who’s now a Dean at a Pharmacy reached out to me. And if you’re listening to this, I love you, man. Thank you. Make sure I was okay. Because it made no logical sense. But God does. And then to your point, you did all this work? Yes, faith and work is required. It is a co partnership. And that’s really my mission is life. My mission in life is to comission with Jesus to reconcile relationships and redeem people’s lives. That’s it. That’s why I do what I do. And it’s so incredibly fulfilling. And it’s a blast. We have fun. And when I tell my clients, I say you’re here to get results and you’re guaranteed results every session because we’re not called coaches, you get a result in 30 Minutes or Less guaranteed, and you will get a result and you’re going to have fun because if you’re not having fun, you’re doing it wrong. So if you don’t like to have fun, we got to get you a new coach. So that’s the first call I have with my clients. And if they’re not laughing I know it’s time to go! So it’s fun. It’s a blast. People are changing their lives and being able to witness that being able to be a vessel for God to do that work. It’s absolutely extraordinary and, and the level of faith that this has grown, I’ve gotten to see people bring their lives to Jesus through this, I’ve gotten to see people turn the impossible in the into the possible, which is really what a breakthrough is. A breakthrough is a moment in time when the impossible becomes possible. And you actually are living that, and seeing someone do that the look in their eyes, the moment where they think this can happen, this is possible. That’s why do this all so that people ignite their light within. And when you unapologetically own your fire, you get to spark someone else’s light. And then they can go and do it too. And that’s why I do what I do to keep that moving through.

Corrie Sanders1:10:51

I think it’s beautiful to hear that you didn’t necessarily have an identity crisis. And that’s something that I think about all the time because I am similar to you, Adam, I mean, just about as involved in pharmacy as I can be in the state of Hawaii, and I love being a pharmacist.

Adam Martin  1:11:08

In Hawaii! 

Corrie Sanders  1:11:10

Specifically.

Adam Martin  1:11:12

People probably want to switch with you!

Corrie Sanders  1:11:15

But I also think about all the time, I mean, I’ve been very I’ve taken a lot of risks in the past year. And I’m like, if worse comes to worse, my identity is not tied to this profession as much as I love it. And I love being a part of it. And I think there’s so much that we can do, and there’s a lot of untapped potential in pharmacy. If the world were to collapse on pharmacy, tomorrow, I’m going to be fine, I would figure it out, it’s going to be okay. So I think that that’s always an interesting lens as a pharmacy entrepreneur is are you tied to being a pharmacist, because that almost can become a self limiting belief with potential that you can have on the healthcare community in general, not just the pharmacy community. And I think when you’re on this path of impact and growth, and you’re finding your flow state, the opportunities that present themselves to you are beyond what you could have comprehended and a lot of times they reach into healthcare in general, not just this unique, narrow pharmacy lens, which is obviously something that nobody teaches you in pharmacy school, and that you don’t learn without experience. But I do think about that identity crisis all the time on my own path. So I just wanted to articulate that and to point that out, and to give that to other pharmacy entrepreneurs or to other pharmacists that, you know, don’t ever define yourself as a person to your career, I think that is just such a huge, it’s just a It hurts my character to think about that.

Adam Martin  1:12:41

Brilliant point. And I’m really glad that you highlighted that. And first, I want to acknowledge you because you said you’re taking lots of risks. No risk, no reward. Now, to your point about people tying their identity to pharmacists, this is a very, it’s a nuance, but it’s very important. How you identify how you label, the word pharmacist, how you define that can totally change your life. When you change the way you label things, the things you label change. And what I mean by that is, how do you define pharmacist? Most people in retail, the identity pharmacist is that you’re working full time at one location. So if you were to change, you are threatening your identity. And again, the strongest force in the human personality is the need to stay consistent and how we define ourselves. So if your definition of being a pharmacist is staying full time at a retail establishment, and you have an opportunity to go do a residency, go do a fellowship, go do whatever that threatens your definition of your identity. And you might not understand why you may chalk it up to fear. But really what it is, is you’re protecting your identity because of how you choose to define pharmacists. And most often that wasn’t consciously chosen that was subconsciously adapted or borrowed from someone else. So really think if you are stuck, if you’re thinking of oh, I might want to change or explore other options are go the entrepreneur route, and you and you thought about it. But if you’re honest with yourself, are you still stuck where you’ve been? Or you maybe complacent. And this isn’t coming at you, I’m actually coming with you. If you’re not making any progress, just pause and say, how do I define myself? If I define myself as a pharmacist, critical care, ambulatory care, whatever it is, what’s that mean to me? Because nothing has any meaning except the meaning you choose to give it and when you give it an identity, you protect that to the death, including your passion and fulfillment. So if you’re feeling burned out, maybe it’s not that you’re overworked. Maybe it’s that you’re underwhelmed. 

Corrie Sanders  1:15:00

And to kind of plug a line in the same vein there, too. I know we spoke earlier about the mindset of people in pharmacy right now. I mean, I don’t think it’s a secret. There’s all these positive I’m I’ve got air quotes on for the listeners, these “positive” Facebook communities or we’re seeing a lot on LinkedIn and across the news with Pharmageddon. And these pharmacy walkouts, and a lot happening with pharmacists not necessarily even asking for higher pay, but just asking for safer working conditions. I would love to ask for your insight on the future of pharmacy because you’ve got this lens of having been in a traditional three letter pharmacy setting having been in a very non traditional Blueberry Pharmacy setting where you’re doing something totally different. And now being a pharmacy entrepreneur, where you’re coaching people in both of these settings, and you kind of have your hands in a lot of different pharmacy baskets, so to speak, or you’re able to see pharmacy through a very, very unique lens that I think only comes with experience. So to pharmacists that are potentially in those retail settings,  any advice on what the future of pharmacy looks like, advice for them in general, I will leave the floor open to you with anything that you want to add just based off the current current climate of pharmacy in November of 2023.

Corrie Sanders  1:16:06

Really good question, and I’m going to steal something from my dear friend Joseph McClendon, the third, who says the future is what you dare to make of it and Fortune favors the bold.

Corrie Sanders  1:16:41

I love it a short and sweet and simple answer. We don’t need to dive into the weeds.

Adam Martin  1:16:48

But It’s the truth. Nothing has any meaning except the meaning you choose to give it we can look at all the things that are wrong. And we can also say, is this terrible? Or is this actually an opportunity in disguise, because of injustice goes on for so long,  eventually it’s going to pop and that’s an excellent opportunity to innovate. Let’s let’s use an example. I like this one. The music industry. Y’all remember the 90s when CDs had like 12 songs, and they were like $20. That was such a rip off. It was screwing people! And what happened? Napster. Online music. The industry was destroyed because of their greed. And history tends to repeat itself.

Corrie Sanders  1:17:34

Very well said and a lot of food for thought and very many different ways that you can take that. So I love it will leave our listeners with a little tease and a little bit of introspection with their own beliefs and where they see where they see pharmacies going. But I do really appreciate that comment, Adam. 

Corrie Sanders  1:17:52

So I will kind of round things out here with three questions that I just like to throw on at the end of our podcast, just very brief, meant to be a little bit of a personal testament to your journey, and hopefully bring some inspiration to some of our listeners. So what has been the most memorable aspect of being a pharmacy entrepreneur, any moment that sticks out in your head?

Adam Martin  1:17:52

Absolutely. 

Adam Martin  1:18:18

I think it’s really taking the leap and not looking back. And there’s something that is really cool. When next time you’re driving, if you’re thinking of making the leap, if you’ve had the courage, and like I’m gonna do it, I’m gonna do it. I, I want to Tim’s thing, and I’m in this community and I’m fired up and you go and you hold back, and you pump the brakes. And you’re in this cycle of getting pumped up, but not actually moving forward. Well, the next time you’re in your car, just take a look. Because again, it’s all about being resourceful, and success leaves clues. So if you look forward, you’ll see that the windshield is quite expansive, and it’s looking forward. But you also see your rearview mirror. That’s quite tiny, looking back. Which would you like to focus on?Which way are you going? Don’t look back, you’re not going that way.

Corrie Sanders  1:19:17

For a second, I thought you were gonna say “close your eyes.” And I was like…..next time you’re driving close your eyes! Very well said. Puts puts perspective into true form. So Adam, a piece of advice for someone contemplating a non traditional pharmacy career path? 

Adam Martin  1:19:37

Absolutely. Why do you want to do it? And here’s this is actually a really good question. And something that I see a lot of people doing when they do it and they have regrets, or they get angry or resentful is are you moving towards something? Or are you moving away from it? Oftentimes people make changes preemptively off of emotion and when you make an emotion out of fear or anger, it’s almost always the wrong decision. So looking at human behavior and test me on this, don’t just listen, test me. The only two reasons that humans make any action is to avoid pain and to seek pleasure. Now of the two just asking you, which one do you think is a stronger driving force initially avoiding pain, or seeking pleasure? 

Corrie Sanders  1:20:30

Initially avoiding pain.

Adam Martin  1:20:31

100%. Spot on. So what most people do when they’re making career change, is they’re like, Oh, we’re understaffed and underpaid. This is terrible. So they jump out of the pan and into the fire. So initially, it is very helpful to get leverage on yourself. Because without leverage, nothing lasts. And in order to make that change last long term, you need a also pleasurable future, a compelling future that has emotionally compelling reasons why. So yes, you want to be real with the pain? Why do you want to leave? But you also want a clear, compelling future with emotionally driven reasons why? That’s how you’ll make it to last. So just ask yourself, why do you want to leave? Most people say because it sucks here. It’s another day in hell, whatever. Okay? That’s real. Well, what’s the other alternative? Because make sure that you’re not jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. So be really clear on why you’re looking to make a change and be responsible. If you’re married. If you have kids, and it’s a huge risk, make sure you’ve got money in the bank, make sure you have a contingency plan. And this is something that I train people when they’re starting a brand. And we’re going to scale it down to scale it up. So when you’re when you’re gonna make a brand, and you’re going to get on social media, create content, podcasts, episodes, whatever. Well, right now, when you’re ready to launch, we’re super pumped up, just like when you’re ready to change jobs, you’re super pumped up to do whatever it takes. And you might commit some posting every day, twice a day. Well, what about when you’re not pumped up? What about when you’ve had a really rough day? What about when you lose your best friend. So what I recommend is future pace yourself. So imagine and use the future, use the past. So you’ve already had troubling experiences, it’s already happened. Use those to your advantage. Think back to a time when you were in a rough spot in your life. And so this is the personal brand context of making content. Think back to a time when you were having a really rough spot? How if you were in that spot back then how much energy and mental effort would you be able to commit to posting? So how many posts a week would you make if you were in the toughest spot in your life, and most people say, like once a week, so use that as your baseline, and until you’re consistent for three to six months, then scale up, it’s all about consistency. That’s the key. And as a fitness person, consistency is the best workout. Consistent, and we all want to make these intense changes post 10 times a day, change my job, burn the boats, well, we want to be intense, but we don’t want to be consistent. And consistency is the most intense thing you can do. Because hardly anyone does that craziness. So the thing that is telling you this is prepare. So if you’re looking to make the change, recognize that you’re likely in a very heightened emotional state. So future paced by looking at when you were rough, what was the most stressful financial time that you had in your past? What did you what was what was in jeopardy? Was it your rent? Was it your mortgage? Was it your children’s medical bills, and then use that knowledge because history tends to repeat itself. So use that knowledge to prepare for the storms that not may but will come in the future. So consider not just yourself, but who you’re who’s dependent on you, and set yourself up. Now, again, it’s different for everyone. This is the general 80% you know, the bell curve. This is 80% this is the strategy you want to look at is who’s dependent on you? What are their needs, and calculate what’s your cost of living, and also planned for rainy days, what were some rainy days that you experienced in the last five to 10 years of your life? Imagine if all of those happened over the next month. Because oftentimes when you take this leap, you will be tested. 100% of the time. You say you want something you will be tested, and the world moves for those who are persistent. So plan ahead to make the journey more enjoyable. Because again, if you’re not having fun, you’re doing it wrong.

Corrie Sanders  1:24:46

Yeah, I loved – I love the point that you said about being in a heightened state of emotion. And that’s something that I think a lot of our guests have had in common is that they really sat with that emotion for an extended amount of time. I mean, it was a very calculated risk. To your point, it looks so different for everyone. There’s obviously not a blanket formula. But I love dialing into this is a heightened state of emotion, I need to be aware of it and how do I dial this back to something that’s going to be on a completely different plane and trajectory of emotion that I may not even have experienced yet up to this point in my life. So let’s try to just put our feet in that situation and see how we feel and try to plan for a rainy day, so to speak, or try to plan ahead. I really love that point. And Adam, my last question is, what is I actually think I might be able to answer this for you. But what is your favorite part about being a pharmacy entrepreneur, or in this case, you’re not a pharmacist anymore. So we’ll just dial that back to what is your favorite part about being an entrepreneur?

Adam Martin  1:25:44

 So that’s interesting. I don’t think I consider myself an entrepreneur. And by definition, by all definitions, people like, of course you are, you’re out on your own running your own business, you’re doing all these things. I just consider myself a secret agent for Jesus. That’s it. Because people come to me for all kinds of things. I want to a new career, I’ve helped them do that over and over, I helped you get I’ve 10x people’s income. I’ve done things that would blow your mind, helping them do it, empowering them, I really don’t do anything. I just ask questions. As a coach, I’m literally a professional question asker. That’s all I do. So when it comes to being a professional entrepreneur, a pharmacist entrepreneur, it’s not about me. That’s what I love about it. Because we put all this pressure on ourselves to have it all figured out. We want to have control and certainty of our future. And oftentimes, when we surrender that or even entertaining, the idea of surrender, we think that surrenders giving up and again, how you define things makes a huge thing. Surrendering is one of the most strongest things, or there’s a there’s a good word, clearly I have an English degree, the strongest things you can do. But know that to tie it in it, surrender is one of the most courageous things that you can do, because you’re dying to yourself. And the ways of the kingdom are the opposite the ways of the world, when you die to yourself is when you live. If you want to lead, kneel, if you want to be first, go last. So recognizing that I’m not really I don’t have this plan for this 10 year vision. I’m living on daily bread. And that’s faith. And again, that’s not, you know, not doing anything and expecting money to fall from the sky, which it did and does. But it’s being an active participant in your own rescue, recognizing and being resourceful. These are the gifts I’ve been given, how am I going to steward these responsibly, not for my own gain, but so that I can be a river an avalanche of abundance through which I can pass through and serve to others. It’s not about me, it starts with me. It goes through me I’m required. But it doesn’t end with me. And when you put the focus off yourself, you start to look at how can I give? How can I use this stuff, and give it to other people because again, the secret to living is giving. And then when it’s never about you, you can’t lose. And especially in times when we’re feeling lost or helpless. When you’re feeling helpless, get helpful. Because once you give,it adds this level of gratitude that you can’t even imagine. So my favorite part is and the best way to describe what I do now is I get the honor and privilege to have a front row seat to witnessing miracles. It’s freaking incredible. Like, I literally cry, I’m not kidding, ask my colleagues, I cry two, maybe three days a week, because of the things that I get to witness, the breakthroughs, the marriages that are saved, the all on and on and on. It’s amazing. And having the honor and privilege to be a witness to be a conduit for this is absolutely extraordinary. And we have fun! It’s a blast! So if you’re not having fun, you’re doing it wrong. So if you’re in a job and that doesn’t mean I’m telling you to quit, but say could you be focusing on the wrong thing because you’re influenced by other people in your profession. Maybe you’re hanging out in the wrong Facebook groups. Maybe you need to listen to more YFP. Maybe you need to get more engaged in that community. Maybe you need to, instead of listening to people who are complaining and have a life that you don’t want, maybe you need to connect with people who are living a life through the integrity and character and lifestyle that you actually do want. Because success leaves clues. And I’m gonna give your listeners a big tip. If you want to get success as fast as possible. There’s three simple steps. Number one, proximity,number two, proximity, number three, proximity, whatever you want to attain, get around people playing that level of the game. Because like crabs in a bucket, if you’re in an environment that doesn’t support or encourage your growth, they will always pull you down to their level. So level up and become the smallest person in the room, from the humble perspective to grow and become a part of something. And that’s really intimidating. You might be in that room thinking who am I? I feel out of place. Yes, you’re in the right room. Congratulations! Now be of service. But how can I be of service I have so much to learn? Figure it out. Favorite quote from credit this to Marie Forleo. Everything is figured-out-able.

Adam Martin  01:39

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I can’t credit that one. But it’s the truth. It’s all about innovation. And that was one of the biggest takeaways that I got from University of Pittsburgh School of Pharmacy, our values aligned. leadership, innovation and excellence. Personal excellence is the ultimate rebellion. I learned that from Andy Frisella, creator of 75 Hard, I’ve done Lift Hard, I’m actually finishing my second year of that. Incredible program. It’s free, not not tied to it in any way, but if you want to level up your life, get up on 75 Hard, I did a podcast because I did that while I was a pharmacist highly recommend, but I digress. All kinds of tools, get resourceful. Surround yourself with people who encourage you. That’s the best part of this is, being around people that you want to be around. Because you’re serving at such a high level. I had the honor this past. I was there Saturday through Wednesday. Every year Tony Robbins has the annual coaching meeting. So there were 108 coaches from 29 countries. And these are the most amazing souls you ever met. Because they’re givers. There’s no, there’s friendly competition, but there’s not like backstabbing competition. It’s give give, give without any expectation. They don’t keep tabs, they give with unconditional love. It’s incredible. It’s what we call our chosen family. There’s nothing like it I’ve ever seen or heard of in the world. It is incredible. And they make me want to be better. So get around people that are playing at a level higher than you. And watch what happens. Because proximity is power. So that’s why I’m honored to be a part of this podcast seriously, it’s such an honor, because I’m such an admirer of Tim and you and the team that you have, because it’s such an honorable community of people that want to play and live life at a higher level so that they can create a future for their family that they may have never had. So that they can inspire other people, maybe they’re mentoring, maybe their colleagues that it doesn’t have to be that way. The way that all the loud people are complaining about yes, that’s may be happening. And there’s other stuff too because in every adversity there’s also an opportunity in disguise because again, there’s always both two things happening at the same time. Something that’s gained and something that’s lost and you get to choose which of the two you focus on so choose wisely.

Adam Martin  04:43

Best way is probably at this point. I’m on LinkedIn. Dr. Adam Martin, Also the original on Instagram, all one word The Fit Pharmacists, that’s that’s where I’m most active. But you can also email me at [email protected]

Adam Martin  05:09

All right, let’s go.

Adam Martin  05:45

My pleasure, thank you so much for the time for your kindness. And again, just a reminder, you were all blessed to be a blessing. So go forth, be great and dispense your full potential. 

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Tim Ulbrich  05:56

Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the your Financial Pharmacist Podcast First Horizon, we’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists and the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% downpayment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers and has no PMI on a 30 year fixed rate mortgage. To learn more about the requirements for First Horizons pharmacist home loan, and to get started with the pre approval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

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Tim Ulbrich  06:41

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the date published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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Fannie Mae Cuts Down Payment Requirement to 5% for Multi-Unit Properties

Paid Partnership with Tony Umholtz, First Horizon

In a significant shift that is reshaping the landscape of real estate investments, FNMA (Fannie Mae) has recently implemented a game-changing policy. Previously, potential buyers looking to purchase owner-occupied 2-4 unit properties faced hefty down payment requirements, ranging from 15-25% down. However, effective mid-November 2023, FNMA has now slashed this requirement, allowing buyers to secure these properties with just a 5% down payment. The development has sent waves of excitement through the real estate market, opening doors for a broader range of aspiring homeowners.
 
Historically, the high down payment barriers have deterred many homebuyers from exploring the potential benefits of purchasing multi-unit properties. With the reduced down payment requirement, FNMA is not only making real estate investments more accessible but also empowering more individuals to step into the realm of property ownership. This move holds the promise of increased homeownership rates and a more diversified real estate market.
 
One of the key advantages of this policy change is the potential for rental income. Multi-unit properties often generate substantial income. By living in one unit, and renting out the other units of the property, a homeowner can cover some or all their mortgage payments and even yield profits. The rental income of the property may also be used to qualify for the mortgage loan, increasing the purchasing power for an individual. With the lower down payment requirement, more people can now consider this option, creating a ripple effect of economic empowerment and financial stability.

Additionally, this shift is expected to foster vibrant communities. As more individuals and families can afford to invest in multi-unit properties, neighborhoods are likely to see an influx of responsible landlords and homeowners. This, in turn, could lead to improved living conditions, enhanced community engagement, and increased local investments, revitalizing areas that were previously overlooked.
 
For aspiring homeowners, this policy change offers a unique opportunity to step onto the property ladder. The dream of owning a home, especially a multi-unit property that can generate rental income, is now within closer reach. This not only fosters a sense of financial security but also opens up avenues for building wealth through real estate appreciation and rental income.
 
Real estate professionals and investors are also poised to benefit significantly from this development. With more potential buyers entering the market, real estate agents and investors can explore new avenues for business growth. Furthermore, the increased demand for multi-unit properties could drive property values up, providing investors with the potential for substantial returns on investment.

In conclusion, FNMA’s decision to lower down payments for owner-occupied 2-4 unit properties marks a transformative moment in the real estate industry. By breaking down financial barriers, FNMA is fostering a more inclusive and dynamic market that benefits individuals, communities, and the overall economy. As more people seize the opportunity to invest in real estate, the effects of this policy change are set to resonate positively for years to come, shaping the future of housing and investment opportunities in the US.

Find the Best Home Loan for You

Regardless of the type of property you want to purchase, finding the right loan requires a lot of research and expertise. Fortunately, you can turn to the professional loan officers on the Umholtz Team at First Horizon Mortgage. Tony Umholtz leads a team of experienced loan officers that provide you with high-quality home loan programs, tailored to fit your unique situation with some of the most competitive rates in the nation. Whether you are a first-time homebuyer, relocating to a new job, or buying an investment property, our expert team will help you use your new mortgage as a smart financial tool. Tony and his team can be reached at 813-603-4255 or by email at [email protected]

You can learn more about the Pharmacist Home Loan offered by First Horizon here.

YFP 334: Philanthropy Unveiled: Strategies for Effective Giving


Explore philanthropy insights with Tom Dauber, Founder of Abundant Vision, covering donor considerations, impact assessment, and affluent traits.

Episode Summary

Curious about donating to nonprofits and giving financial gifts in general? This week we welcome Tom Dauber, Founder of Abundant Vision Philanthropic Consulting. In our interview, Tom shares his knowledge gained from over two decades of involvement in fundraising initiatives and campaigns, offering valuable perspectives to consider when contributing to an organization or cause. He sheds light on the vital questions that prospective donors should examine before making substantial contributions, how to determine the alignment of the gift with the potential impact, and the defining characteristics of wealthy donors, including their career paths, educational backgrounds, and wealth acquisition strategies.

About Today’s Guest

Tom solicited his first “major gift” at age 17 and ran his first fundraising event the following year. After receiving his BFA from Bowling Green State University in 1998, he began his career in non-profit sector. Over the past decade Tom has directed teams responsible for $120M in fundraising initiatives and campaigns. his experience spans faith-based, health science and health system fundraising. From 2005-2019 Tom was the Chief Development Officer for The Ohio State University College of Pharmacy. During his tenure, he grew pharmacy fundraising revenue by 40% annually, taking them from $1.5M annually to over $10M. Tom oversaw alumni affairs, corporate engagement, communications and fundraising for the school and served as President of the AACP Advancement Special Interest Group. Today Tom is the President of Abundant Vision Philanthropic Consulting. He began the company to help small and medium size foundations benefit from high caliber fundraising expertise. Tom is a life-long resident of Central Ohio, growing up just outside of Columbus in rural Johnstown. These days he lives in Westerville, Ohio with his wife Tracey Papenfuss DVM, PhD. Together they have four kids, three dogs and two cats.

Key Points From the Episode

  • Tom dives into why giving is an area of passion for him.
  • He delves into key questions prospective donors should consider asking about organizations.
  • We explore the question, “Is my donation going to be tax deductible?”
  • His thoughts on gifts that are given anonymously and the pros and cons you should consider. 
  • We talk about the concept of funds being specifically allocated to cover overheads.
  • Bunching donations to take advantage of tax benefits.
  • Tom highlights the themes and characteristics of those making large gifts.
  • His advice on what not to invest in.
  • We discuss the idea of there being many pathways to building wealth.

Episode Highlights

“The reason that I love fundraising is because I love giving. I love being generous, I love being able to help people. I love being able to make a difference.” — Tom Dauber [0:06:57]

“The beautiful thing about being able to participate in philanthropy is it gives you the opportunity to make a difference in situations that you might never be able to act otherwise.” — Tom Dauber [0:07:06]

“Fundraising, to me, is really just another form of financial advising.” — Tom Dauber [0:09:35]

“What we’re looking for all the time as fundraisers is where that person’s passion intersects with the mission of my organization.” — Tom Dauber [0:11:05]

“There are just so many things pharmacists can do with their degrees entrepreneurially that can lead to their success.” — Tom Dauber [0:38:52]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.8] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I welcome a former colleague of mine, Tom Dauber, Founder of Abundant Vision Philanthropic Consulting. Tom shares his experiences from 20-plus years in fundraising initiatives and campaigns, to give our listeners insights of things they should consider when donating to an organization or cause. Tom outlines key questions that donors should get answered before making large gifts, how to determine the alignment of the gift with the potential impact, and defining characteristics of large donors including career paths, education, and how they acquired their wealth.

Let’s hear a brief message from YFP team member, Justin Woods, and then we’ll jump into my interview with Tom Dauber.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[0:00:48.8] JW: This is Justin Woods from the YFP Team with a quick message before the show. If you listen to the YFP Podcast, you may learn something every now and then, either from Tim Ulbrick, Tim Baker, or one of our guests. A lot of people listen to this show but they may not execute or implement the things they learn. As pharmacists, we know the impact of nonadherence on patient outcomes and their overall well-being. 

As a pharmacist myself and part of the YFP Team, I talk with pharmacists every day who are confused about how to implement financial knowledge. Pharmacists share with me that they are treading water financially, maybe took a DIY approach, reached a plateau, and are confused about what to do next, or those who work for decades can see the light at the end of the tunnel and feel uncertain about how the next chapter will unfold. 

If that sounds like you, one, it is not uncommon to feel that way, and two, does it make sense for us to have a conversation to see if YFP Planning can help you? Visit yfpplanning.com or follow the link in the show notes to find a time that works for your schedule.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:54.0] TU: Tom, welcome to the show. 

[0:01:55.9] TD: Oh, thanks Tim, it’s great to be here.

[0:01:57.5] TU: So, some background information and context for our listeners, our career paths crossed several years ago, back in – it must have been 2018, 2019 when I came on as faculty at Ohio State. At the time you were working in the advancement office at OSU College of Pharmacy and we had a chance to work together several times through that time period and then, just recently, a few months ago, I had reached out to you as we are starting a nonprofit called YFP Gifts. 

We’re going to have more information for our listeners about that here in a little bit and I wanted to tap into your expertise and was just a great opportunity to reconnect with you but also, as you were sharing some of the work that you’re doing right now in your career, I thought, “Wow, what a great episode this would make.” As we can tap into your experiences on the side of receiving funds, receiving philanthropic funds, such that for those in our community that are making giving a part of their plan, they can take away some tidbits that would be helpful to that portion of their financial plan. 

So, first and foremost, thanks for being here, and if you want to kick off by telling us a little bit more about your career background and the work that you’re doing now with Abundant Vision Philanthropic Consulting.

[0:03:08.7] TD: Sure. Back in gosh, it would have been the 90s, I wanted to start a club up at my school and I wanted it to be official and I decided since I didn’t have a job, I just needed to go ask somebody for the money and so, I went to a couple of different business people that I knew. One was my cross-country coach, one was my Sunday school teacher and I got one of them to give me 75 bucks.

[0:03:30.2] TU: Oh, that’s awesome.

[0:03:31.3] TD: And started an official chapter of my organization, it was exciting. That’s the first major gift that I ever closed and then shortly after that, began doing some fundraising of events for local things and just kind of worked my way through it, and then you know, when I graduated from Bowling Green State University.

[0:03:47.9] TU: Go Falcons.

[0:03:48.1] TD: I ended up. What’s that?

[0:03:49.7] TU: Go Falcons.

[0:03:50.2] TD: Yeah, that’s right. Go Falcons. You know, with my art degree there, really, I had some passions in my life that I needed to pursue outside of art, and so I ended up going to work for Central Howl Youth for Christ, works with youth here in the Columbus area, ended up going back to my hometown, and essentially starting a new branch of that organization out of Northwest Lincoln County. A lot of fundraising involved with that.

It was what I like to call a nonprofit with a capital win, so they really didn’t have much money, and so our salaries were appropriately sized compared to that, and as my family grew, got children, got married, well, opposite order there, got a mortgage and ultimately, I just couldn’t live on that salary anymore, and as I kind of tried to figure out, “What can I do? What am I going to do? I’m not going to make a living as an artist.” 

And I realized that people actually pay you a reasonable salary to go raise money for them, and that was my entrée into the Ohio State University at the College of Dentistry, and so I spent seven and a half years there kind of working my way up from an entry-level position into Director of Development. So, reporting up to a senior director and after a good bit of time and having some success, I was given the opportunity to be the Senior Director there at the College of Pharmacy and that was 2012, 2013. 

That was right on the tail end of Dean Brugamyer’s term there and transitioning into Dean Henry Mann and that’s when I went from kind of being the expert in oral healthcare to learning a lot from some wonderful teachers there at the pharmacy school. So, I did that from 2012 to 2019. Then, Ohio Health came calling and went to report there and ran an entire team of Chief Development Officers for that organization. 

And then, you know, we had a kind of a string of layoffs there at Ohio Health and I was, you know, kind of one manager too many, I guess, and ended up stepping out of that position, and as I kind of weighed, “You know, what could I do professionally?”

[0:05:53.6] TU: Yeah. 

[0:05:54.2] TD: I began to talk to some different organizations. I was really getting deep into some pretty exciting searches for some wonderful nonprofits and then, an opportunity came to work with a kind of a nationally known nonprofit but actually hadn’t really done much fundraising and did not really do much in the world of major gifts, and so with that in front of me, I pulled my name out of all those late-stage searches and decided to start my own shop, helping nonprofits figure out how to increase fundraising in their organization.

[0:06:25.9] TU: I love that Tom, and excited to tap into your expertise here during this interview. I’m curious to know, what led you to make your life’s work around giving, right? You talked about, you know, the importance of providing for your family, making a good salary, you know, you mentioned that very early experience, right? Your first major gift of $75 but I have always sensed that deeper for you, right?

You have this life’s work around giving and helping organizations. Why is giving an area a passion for you? Regardless of the area of the gift?

[0:06:56.9] TD: Well, you know, for me, the reason that I love fundraising is because I love giving. I love being generous, I love being able to help people. I love being able to make a difference and the beautiful thing, you know, about being able to participate in philanthropy is it gives you the opportunity to make a difference in situations that you might never be able to impact otherwise, you know?

I may not be able to personally bring a bottle of clean water to somebody in the majority world that’s struggling to have clean water but there are people that I can give money to who will make sure that those dollars are used in such a way to make sure that happens. To me, that’s like, beautiful.

[0:07:40.0] TU: Yeah.

[0:07:40.4] TD: You know, there are checks I write at the end of the year frankly, that bring me to tears to just have the privilege to make a difference in some of those places.

[0:07:49.0] TU: Yeah, that really resonates with me and I think it – well, our community as well, I have a sense that you know, pharmacists have a giving heart by nature, it’s just what draws people into the procession and one of the things I’ve really been passionate about and building YFP is that we know that if we can help someone really get their own financial house, their own financial plan in order, such that they feel like they’re on solid footing, they’re then in an opportunity and in a position to also be given at a greater level and that’s one of the things we’re most excited about with YFP Gives. 

I’m teasing that a little bit but more information to come here in the future. So, for this interview, as I mentioned, I really want to use your experiences, your expertise as someone who raise funds, and all that you learned in accepting donations, talking with donors, setting up different philanthropic causes and funds, to then shift that perspective to those individuals that are looking to give and what might be some of those considerations as they make giving a part of their financial plan.

So, my first question for you Tom, is, what are those key questions? When you think about sending money to an organization, a nonprofit, you know, key things that we’d want to know about the organization prior to making that gift, and here, I’m also thinking that you know, if it’s an ongoing gift or if it’s a sizeable gift, perhaps these questions are more important. Although, I think in any case people want to feel good about where their dollars are going. What are some of the key questions that people should be considering?

[0:09:18.8] TD: Yeah, these questions scale no matter how much money you have. You know, the first thing, the really hard questions, their questions about you know, I mean, you’re in the financial advising world. I think a really good financial advisor, their first questions for you are going to be, “You know, what are your dreams and goals?”

[0:09:34.0] TU: Yup.

[0:09:34.4] TD: Right? Fundraising to me is really just another form of financial advising. You know, when I was working, you know, at OSU, there were all sorts of things that people could give to, say, at the pharmacy school. You know, they could give the natural products, they could give to pharmacy practice, they could give to scholarships, they could give to all these things, and so the first question for me in that scenario was, “What do you care most about?”

I remember talking to one community pharmacist, someone who had their own practice and they were talking to me about Dr. Biel and how Dr. Biel inspired them. Dr. Biel, for you listeners who don’t know, is this legend of natural products research, a pharmacognosy, who was so kind and so caring and students loved him, and so for that person, even though I expected, “Well, maybe this person would want to do scholarships” what I discovered was they were passionate about Dr. Biel and the difference he made in their life and so they wanted to make a gift that honored him, right?

So, that’s my first question, whether it’s a pharmacy school or somewhere else, “What do you really care about? What changes in the world would you like to see?” I have a good friend who is a master fundraiser. He is a mentor of mine and he often starts these conversations. He’ll pull out a pen, you know, hold the pen up and he said, “Let’s pretend this pen is a magic wand and you can use this magic wand to change anything in the entire world, just so it’s exactly the way you want. What’s that thing you would change?” 

You know because what we’re looking for all the time as fundraisers is, where is that person’s passion intersects with the mission of my organization? And truth be told if you’re a good fundraiser, if you don’t see that intersection, you will less and release. You may even help point them towards an organization that can help them do what they want to do and honestly, that often results in gifts being made down the road because you demonstrate integrity to doing that but yeah. 

So, you want to ask your people, “Tim, what are you passionate about? What changes in the world would you like to see and how could a gift really align with your deepest values? You know, what’s the thing you care most about?” And then you go from there to say, “Well, who are the organizations that I’m aware of that are making a difference in those areas?” So, those are the hard questions.

[0:11:55.2] TU: Yeah.

[0:11:55.5] TD: Then you’d get into the head questions and so those might be, how much can they afford to give? Another question might be, once they start thinking about that, another question that sort of might modify this, what’s the right asset for the gift? They may only be able to give so much in cash but they may have appreciated assets, maybe stocks, or maybe they’ve got a Rembrandt. I don’t know what they might have.

[0:12:22.9] TU: Yup.

[0:12:24.0] TD: But they may have something that might allow them to make a much larger gift. I think about a gift I was able to close at the pharmacy school. You know, it has this beautiful pharmacy practice lab, the biggest gift to that was olive product. In one of the reasons that gift was so large was because the company that made that product, it cost them less to make it.

So, the actual cost to them was less than the value of the gift but to us, we didn’t devalue it. We didn’t say, “Well, this half a million dollars and so in equipment that only cost you 200 to make.” We gave them the full credit of the half million and that’s the full credit the IRS will give you, right? So, maybe you’ve got grain, maybe you’re a pharmacist and you also are a farmer. You can donate that grain to organizations that can even turn around and sell that for market rates.

So, so there’s that and there’s also tax considerations that might come into play and I’m sure you’re well aware of those, Tim. There are going to be and oftentimes, this will intersect with issues of you know, stocks or things that have a higher net worth and what bought them for, those things are going to be things you want to think about, carefully. 

You may want to take a loss in some years. Real estate can also be tricky and things to consider and then lastly, and this gets to maybe some of your other questions but does the organization to thinking have a track record of success in the areas they care about? If you’re going to make a big gift, I might let someone else experiment and see if the new kid on the block is the one to get it done. Unless you’re really persuaded, I might consider that.

[0:13:58.7] TU: Yeah. Great questions, and I love how you divided those, right? Starting with the heart, you know moving to the head, all things that people are thinking about when they’re making a gift and since you mention the IRS, let’s talk about that here for a moment. I think that many in our community, they do start with the heart when they’re giving but they’re also pharmacist, right? 

They want to be efficient, they want to be making sure that they’re optimizing the tax part of their financial plan as well, and so this question comes up a lot around you know, “Is my donation going to be tax deductible?” And there’s not – all nonprofits as far as I know are not created equal, right? There’s C3s, which probably is what 501(c)(3) is most folks are familiar with but not every nonprofit is a 501(c)(3). 

And so, there can be nuances here to consider as it relates to making a gift or making a donation. So, what should somebody be looking for or how can they know that their gift ultimately is going to be tax deductible? If that’s something that they’re really interested in.

[0:14:55.1] TD: Well, my specialty is definitely in the area of 501(c)(3)s and you can know for sure that if an organization is a 501(c)(3), that your gift to them is definitely going to be tax deductible. Now, to check, all you need to do is to go on the tax-exempt organization search site, the IRS and look up the organization by name or their EIN. The other thing that’s helpful about that website is you can also check their 990 and that 990 will also give you some sense for, you know, how much money they’re raising, which you know, may matter to you, that might inform you a little bit about the organization.

[0:15:32.4] TU: I like that. I’ve never actually thought about, you know, I’ve been in nonprofit organizations where I’m involved in the 990 filing, never have thought about it from the giving standpoint to go look up the 990, the organization. Makes a ton of sense. Giving gifts anonymously is something else. I’m interested to hear your thoughts on the – from the perspective of somebody in the organization who is receiving the gift. You know, I think that perhaps, there’s pros and cons from each side of a gift being given anonymously. What has been your experiences here?

[0:16:03.8] TD: Well, so, you know, there’s a lot of things – there’s a lot of reasons you may want to consider an anonymous gift. In terms of the pros towards that is first off, some fates told that there’s greater blessing in giving anonymously and I think there’s some truth to that for sure and otherwise, it can also be kind of fun to have a secret, you know? Nobody knows who gave this gift and you know, hopefully, involved with the organization and kind of have a little chuckle, right? About it.

You know, I think another reason people give anonymously though is because they want to avoid the attention that comes with a large gift. It’s because it’s true, all the nonprofits in the world and there’s what? 1.8 million, something like that, nonprofits, their feelers are out there, they’re paying attention to who is giving to whom in their communities, and the moment word gets out that someone made a gift, a lot of the other organizations like, if they have some connection with that individual, they’re going to be asking themselves, “Huh, I wonder if we can get in front of that person? I wonder if there’s a way that they might find something here that’s worth supporting” right?

You know, and when you give anonymously, you avoid all of that. I mean, it’s the same reasons why if someone wins the Lotto, they may want to just keep that to themselves, right?

[0:17:20.1] TU: Yeah. 

[0:17:20.8] TD: So, those are some of the pros. There are a lot of cons though, I will say. So, if I want to truly make an anonymous gift, it’s going to be really hard to get good follow-up from the organization about the impact of your gift. One way that you could be successful in doing that is by going through a third party. Maybe you’ve got a financial planner or a lawyer, someone you trust that could make a gift to you, on behalf of –

[0:17:48.9] TU: Yeah, makes sense.

[0:17:50.2] TD: Make a gift to an organization on behalf of an individual. The nice thing with that is then you still have a contact person that you can follow up with and can say, “Well, hey, your friend doesn’t want to hear from us directly, could you please pass this information along to them about the difference their gifts made?” That’s a nice thing to be able to do.

Now, another issue, if you want to be receipted, if you want that tax deduction, the person doing the receiving has to know who you are, you know? Many organizations will keep it anonymous beyond that if you ask them, you know, like at large flagship universities, you say to them, “I want to make an anonymous gift.” Someone is going to enter in an anonymous record in the CRM for you. 

That gift’s going to be assigned to that, not to your name as maybe an alum. You know, ultimately though, the person in the gift processing office, they will know who you are and will issue a receipt but I’ve heard of people sending boxes of cash to beloved professors. 

[0:18:59.0] TU: That does not surprise me but it makes sense what you shared in terms of the pros and cons and you know also, at a minimum from the tax standpoint, making sure you have a receipt and you know, I like the idea of a third party if that’s something folks are interested in. I have a feeling most people, I could be wrong, you’re experience here, more than mine is that most people when they say anonymous, they mean anonymous to the community at large, I would think. 

Whereas, you have any information for a receipt, record keeping updates, I think that would be really helpful. For example, if I made an anonymous gift somewhere, I’d be very interested in knowing the impact of that gift. I would be very interested in making sure I have the right documentation for tax purposes but that may just mean it’s not broadcasted that Tim made this donation for this cause. So –

[0:19:41.2] TD: That’s right. So, the terminology that a large foundation might use or a large nonprofit might use, they might say, “Do you want recognition for this or public recognition?”

[0:19:50.7] TU: Makes sense.

[0:19:51.5] TD: And so, you’ll have the option between being an anonymous donor typically, or at least, one that isn’t publicly recognized.

[0:19:57.2] TU: Yeah.

[0:19:58.9] TD: Because another benefit to being known by the organization is that it’s really fun to celebrate a gift with an organization you care about and it can be very meaningful to connect with the beneficiaries you’re supporting. I think about some of the scholarship students that I’ve had the opportunity to work with over the years and getting to see them, meet the people that funded their scholarship and they’re telling stories and there’s just all this positive feeling. That’s something I wouldn’t want to miss out on as a donor.

[0:20:30.1] TU: The other thought I had Tom as you’re just talking there is the potential benefit that comes from motivating and encouraging others. I would presume that giving can often motivate others giving. 

[0:20:41.7] TD: Yeah, that’s right. 

[0:20:43.4] TU: And so especially if there’s you know, colleagues or peers or others that may be in a position also give where their gifts are aligned with the same values and mission that you’re working towards, could the impact, right? The giving in the first place be greater as more people are aware of that gift. So, interesting things to think about there. This one Tom, I’ve always struggled to think, curious to hear you know from someone as a professional in the area. 

Related to how some organizations promote a hundred percent or as close to that as possible goes towards the philanthropic efforts with little to no percent of the gift towards operating overhead expenses and I struggle with this because you know I think first glance as a donor you’re like, “Yeah, heck yeah, I want as much of my gift as possible going towards the cause” right? Whatever that cause may be. 

But as I think about it in terms of like running an organization, there is and probably should be a reasonable and realistic amount of funds that are going to cover expenses that allow that organization to be an effective organization, which the ability to then distribute those funds wouldn’t be there with that overhead to some degree. Now, there’s a lot in between there, right? 

[0:21:57.6] TD: That’s right. 

[0:21:58.3] TU: So, just curious, your thoughts here, and how much does this comes up in conversation from donors? 

[0:22:04.9] TD: Well, I love this question. You know, I brought it up, my wife and I were talking about it over coffee yesterday morning and I think we spent 45 minutes discussing it. It’s funny that you’re the one asking me though because it reminds me a lot of the pharmacy world. There are executives and retailers, who shall not be named, and they’re thinking about how effective is this pharmacy. 

And they’re thinking about it in terms of, “Well, how much money does it cost us to run this pharmacy?” and so their response is to reduce cost in order to get a more effective pharmacy but then as you overwork your pharmacists, you understaff pharmacies, what do you end up having? You have a drop in quality care, quality outcomes, right? 

[0:22:47.6] TU: Yeah. 

[0:22:48.1] TD: And so, there is a real concern, a legitimate concern that there are people out there who start nonprofits where they’re taking 80% of the money’s raised and they’re paying themselves ridiculous salaries and not really helping people out and I think that’s where a lot of this conversation got started and so because of folks like that within my industry, organizations like Charity Navigator in the past have ranked nonprofits really on their cost to raise a dollar. 

That is how much of the dollar that you donate is going to go towards overhead. So, that kind of creates really some problems, really some perverse incentives because you might have an organization that’s way understaffed. They’ve got their fundraiser, maybe they have one person supporting them. Rule of thumb in my profession, you might want two or three people behind the scenes for every one fundraiser you have to make sure that that fundraiser is used effectively, right? 

So anyway, you might have a nonprofit that’s really operating on kind of a skeleton crew, really maybe not writing acknowledgment letters quickly because they just don’t have enough people to process the gifts, you know all those sorts of things could be happening and they’re going to look good on paper. They may even get an award nationally for being a really lean organization but in reality, because of that fear of investing in infrastructure, they’re not doing their job well. 

So really, what you want to do in the same way, you know in your profession Tim, in pharmacy there, you want to look at outcomes. You want to look at evidence-based health outcomes. Well, with any organization, now each nonprofit is going to have a different set of quantifiable outcomes that they’re looking to get but those are the things you want to try to look at and now the trick is and you probably know this too in healthcare, it’s harder to get that number. 

It is way easier for me as a nonprofit to just look at that cost to raise the dollar number and say, “Well, I’m done” right? Than actually getting out into the field, spending time evaluating results, and really trying to not just look at the front end but also the what are the backend kind of trickle-down consequences. I mean, we could, you and I could probably talk for hours about the money in having a pharmacist involved in healthcare saves. 

But savings isn’t always considered a profit, right? So, it’s the same sort of question for both industries. 

[0:25:24.3] TU: Yeah. It reminds me of school rankings, you know? It’s one of the things I’ve got beef with of like if it’s an easy objective number to capture you can quickly scale it, right? It creates “apples to apples” but it doesn’t, right? Because it’s not measuring the harder-to-measure softer components that really do matter and I think what you are sharing here is a great one and if you look at the cost of a nonprofit and what they’re spending and how far those dollars go that are raised, that’s a math equation, right? 

When you get to the details of the impact and the stories you mentioned, kind of getting out to the field to really do some of that hard work, that takes a lot of time and it’s different of course, depending on the giving area that we’re talking about. So, great perspective there. I want to go back to the tax piece and we’ve talked a little bit on the show before, we had our CPA on the show, some of our tax professionals on our team. 

And one of the strategies they talk about, which is often overlooked as part of the financial plan is bunching donations. So, depending on someone’s tax situation, depending on how much they’re giving, depending on the level of giving and the proximity of that to the standard deduction, this may or may not make sense but I think we’re going to see this coming up more and more in our community.

And so, is this something you would frequently see employed by those that were giving, where you know, they were bunching it where they might be giving every other year or at specific periods of time to be able to take advantage of some of those tax benefits? 

[0:26:55.9] TD: I see what you’re saying. So, by bunching what you’re saying is, “I’m going to maybe I’ll upfront my giving because of some tax advantage” versus maybe later or I might delay it because of some other, you know, maybe an income bubble that I’m expecting, is that right? 

[0:27:12.8] TU: Yeah, exactly, and if you know, we’re talking not major, major gifts. Obviously, there’s you know, different tax implications and parts of the financial plan to consider there. I’m thinking about you know, folks that may be giving 10, 15% of their income but when you think about that relative to the standard deduction, it may make sense where one year, they just take the standard deduction and then the next year, they double up on their giving to be able to really maximize it in that following year. 

So, I was just curious, and maybe more broadly here like how often does the tax deficiency questions, become a part of the plan, or are those that typically in this position to give, they’re also working with a tax professional or a planner that’s helping guide them there? 

[0:27:56.5] TD: Yeah, so if I’m eligible for the standard deduction and it’s not to my advantage to itemize, usually these are conversations that come up with a gift officer at a nonprofit. You know usually if I’m aware of someone who is thinking through a tax situation, it’s usually going to be with a higher-end donor who is thinking about for example, selling business and they know, “Hey, I’m going to have a big blip, a big raise in my income here in three years.”

You know, maybe they’ve got a structured buyout, on a dental practice or a pharmacy. I’m going to make a $50,000 pledge but I’m going to give you $5,000 a year the first couple of years and then the last three years, you know I’m really going to build that up or it could happen in reverse. You know, another interesting thing with taxes and those types of income bubbles that people don’t think about, and since you’ve got a big viewership maybe people will think about this down the road. 

If you’ve got a privately held company and you’ve got privately held stock and you’re about to sell, there are some really awesome strategies and I’m no accountant, where you can give away some of that privately held stock to charities you care about or even to family members so that when that big income event happens when you sell, you don’t get nailed. 

I mean, you’ve gotten rid of the assets before you’re taking the income, and so the nonprofit that you’re supporting is going to get this huge gift potentially without having to pay any taxes at all on it. 

[0:29:37.1] TU: Yeah, because they’re going to get exactly, yeah. 

[0:29:39.0] TD: But the thing is, yeah, you can’t do this though after the sale has gone through, so you’ve got to have this all worked out in advance. So, for any of your listeners that may have that happen, that’s something to think about now in advance of the fact.

[0:29:52.4] TU: Yeah, that’s really interesting and some I hadn’t thought about before but it makes sense, privately held companies, you have stock if you’re able to transfer that stock prior to the purchase, the purchase happens, dollars on the purchase go directly to the nonprofit, therefore, it’s not coming to you as taxable income. So, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. 

Tom, the last question I wanted to ask you before we begin to wrap up is I think you posted something or maybe commented on something on LinkedIn a month or two that got me thinking about some of the defining characteristics of those that are making large gifts. You know essentially, what are those defining characteristics of the bigger gifts that are coming in from the folks that are “wealthier?” 

You know, I’m thinking about what was their career path, like what is the level of education, or the trajectory of their education? Are there any themes that you’ve noticed through the years, decades now, right? I guess we can say of experience that you’ve had in those that are wealthy making large gifts and some of the characteristics of where that wealth has come from. 

[0:30:55.7] TD: Absolutely. I guess number one is that employees don’t tend to do as well as business owners and that’s probably pretty intuitive. You know, the bulk of the folks that I have worked with over the years, have been dentists or pharmacists just due to the 15 years they’ve spent at OSU and I’ll tell you both professions tend to do very well. They come out making a strong salary. 

But the ones who’ve really exceeded their peers usually have some sort of side gig or additional thing they’re kind of doing above and beyond their practice and so they’re taking some of their good income and not spending it but investing it in a number of areas and I’ll tell you some real patterns have come through that have been really influential on me like I’m a real estate investor today and part of that is because of all the dentists and pharmacists that I saw who are just doing fantastic. 

I mean, my own dentist that I grew up with I never thought about it but his practice was in an apartment building on the first floor. Well, guess what? He owned the entire thing and even better, when he retired, he sold his practice and then converted his old office into a living place for him and his wife, right? 

[0:32:07.5] TU: That’s awesome, yeah. 

[0:32:08.2] TD: So it’s like really providing for himself. In retirement, he still got that monthly income from the other units not to mention the equity that I’m betting the building has a ton of equity at this. It’s in an area close to the new Intel plant that’s going in. 

[0:32:25.4] TU: Oh, yes. 

[0:32:26.3] TD: But I think of a pharmacist, you know, he is no longer in this world but everyone knows his name because it’s on the James Cancer Center but he started out building strip malls to put his pharmacy in, right? And now, he’s got a cancer research institute named after him because he realized that building strip malls could make him a lot more money than his pharmacy degree could. 

Another pharmacist I knew started buying up commercial real estate in a college town and eventually, he sold his practice and this was – he was working more in kind of that golden age of independent pharmacy and all that but he ended up selling like so many did to one of the big chains. His kids, who were pharmacists, continued working in that chain pharmacy but boy, that family has a lot of generational wealth now because they still own really the entire main strip in that college town. 

So, there’s all this income and all this equity that’s coming in. Now, another area I’ve seen health science professionals become very wealthy is through banking. I would think of one guy and he was starting a dental practice probably back in the 50s or 60s, it’s probably the 50s and the bank would have loaned to him to start a practice and he figured it out eventually but he ended up starting his own bank because he felt like the other bank, you know, they were a bunch of bums. 

And you know eventually, that community bank gets purchased by a larger bank. The next thing you know, there’s just all these resources and I’ve seen that a number of times where people have been invited onto the board of a regional bank, and then that bank gets purchased and so you’ve got shares in it and you do very well. So, my advice to anyone listening right now is if you’re invited to be on the board of a community bank say yes. 

Now, one thing I’ll tell you what not to do, don’t invest in a golf course, don’t start a golf course even if you love golf. This is purely anecdotal, I have no research to back it up but everyone that I have known that you know and pharmacists and dentists historically have been big fans of golf, they decided to start a golf course. It’s almost always lost their money, I’m just saying. 

[0:34:31.3] TU: Interesting, yeah.

[0:34:32.4] TD: Yeah. 

[0:34:32.9] TU: And you know, one of the things I visualize often and I think you describe this really well is many different pathways to building wealth, of course, right? There is no one right way but a visual that keeps coming back to me is a three-legged stool of business, real estate, and what I would call more just traditional investments, right? Traditional investments would be you know, your 401(k)s, your IRAs, your HSAs, your brokerage accounts. 

Probably where many pharmacists might have the vast majority if not all of their investments in and then within real estate, as we talk about often on our Real Estate Investing Podcast that we publish, there are a ton of ways you can go, in real estate. Certainly not for everyone, whether it’s based on interest, risk tolerance, whatever may be the reason. 

But the range of passive to active, right? There is a lot, you can to your comment about being the bank, you can be a hard money lender. Obviously, there’s risk involved there, pharmacists that are involved in syndications, pharmacists that are involved in short-term rentals, mid-term rentals, typical long-term buy and hold, fix and flips. I mean, there is just a myriad of ways that you can be involved, commercial versus residential. 

And then on the business side, I’m a huge fan of not only business for the opportunities to uncap your income and take advantage of the tax roles, which are very favorable to small businesses, especially here in Ohio but also hopefully, to be building an asset that has an equity value that transcends the income you’re even earning in the business and that is kind of the makeup that I often think about is how can you put those three things together. 

And you know, you may be able to not only diversify from those three legs but within those three legs, there’s also opportunities for diversification. So, I just loved how you described it. I think there is so many different ways and one of the take-home points I have there Tom, and you have a unique perspective being in the role, getting a chance to meet and talk with all these people, especially if you grew up in a traditional household, right? 

We put our money in the bank, you buy a home, you put money in a 401(k), you get a good job, just go meet people that have done interesting things, right? And maybe some of those interesting things are more traditional. You know, they own a business, they buy real estate as the long-term rentals but more and more of those conversations, especially where you can see things that maybe aren’t within the realm of what you’re thinking, whether or not you choose to invest in those pathways. 

You have the risk tolerance or you want to or you have the cash, it just opens up your thinking when you can start to have those conversations and you just came to mind as I thought about how many times when you are sitting across from someone where you personally gained, you’re like, “Oh, wow, that’s really interesting” right? That’s really cool wealth-building strategy and to be able to see that from you know, the point of the giver as well is really neat. 

[0:37:23.2] TD: Well, and I know that your listeners are going to be predominantly pharmacists, the thing that you may not all see since you are kind of swimming, you know, in that fish bowl, your pharmacy is such a great degree to have. You know, when I think about like dentistry or even medicine probably to a lesser degree, nearly, I don’t know, probably 90% or higher of all the people with those degrees pretty much limited to practicing and that may include business ownership, which is great or teaching specifically in that career. 

It was very rare for me to run across people that were doing anything out of outside of that profession. You know, when I went to pharmacy and part of it might be the fact that for the longest time, it was undergraduate degree for a lot of people but I saw this incredible diversity of individuals in all sorts of different fascinating careers like there is one guy that we interviewed for the alumni magazine and he developed a vitamin company. 

You know, that became huge in Europe and he’s doing just great. He was a 1950s grad and everybody thought he was crazy and he’s laughed all the way to the bank, he’s been very successful. You know, not to mention the real estate people, there are folks in technology, you know there are folks with master’s degree that you know, you used to be associated with and that you have and he developed a very cool software company, right? 

So, there are just so many things pharmacists can do with their degrees entrepreneurially that can lead to their success. 

[0:38:59.0] TU: That’s great and we talk so much in pharmacy about networking from a professional standpoint but I also like to think about networking in the context of finances and the context of building wealth, right? There’s just so much to be learned, meeting people, reading, listening to podcasts, you know just learning about the different ways and pathways that people have done it before. 

So, Tom, as we wrap up, what’s the best place that our listeners can go to connect with you and to follow the work that you’re doing? 

[0:39:26.1] TD: Sure. Well, look me up on LinkedIn, I’m certainly visible there. I also have a website, abundantvision.net, it’s up right now. We’re actually working on a rework for it, so that will be launching probably the end of August but yeah, please connect with me on social media. I’d love to chat more with anyone that has questions about you know, how to give money away effectively or even you know, how they might want to you know, take steps to start a nonprofit.

[0:39:50.0] TU: Love it. Thank you so much, Tom. I really appreciate your time. 

[0:39:52.5] TD: Great, thanks so much, Tim. 

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:39:54.7] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information on the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 333: Small Business Owner Tax Savings Checklist


On this episode, sponsored by First Horizon, YFP Director of Tax, Sean Richards CPA, EA, summarizes a tax checklist for pharmacy entrepreneurs and other small business owners.

Episode Summary

Too many of us are caught in the trap of only looking at taxes during tax season. As a small business owner, missing the tax mark can have significant consequences in the form of surprise payments due, missed deductions and credits, and constantly wondering if there is something else you should be doing. So whether you are a seasoned business owner or just starting, on this week’s episode, sponsored by First Horizon, YFP Director of Tax, Sean Richards, CPA, EA walks us through a small business owner tax checklist including eight key areas that demand your attention. He touches on the fundamentals of bookkeeping, qualified deductible expenses, the benefits of financial projections to make estimated payments, the significance of S Corp status, insights on determining your owner’s compensation, and much more.

Key Points From the Episode

  • A warm welcome back to the show to YFP’s Director of Tax and CPA, Sean Richards. 
  • Why record keeping is vital for a smooth tax season. 
  • The separation of church and state when it comes to personal business. 
  • Why you shouldn’t fear registering your business as an LLC. 
  • When to consider working with a professional and what to expect from the relationship. 
  • Understanding the basics of bookkeeping. 
  • Defining deductible expenses and why it’s important to understand this term. 
  • The difference between tax planning and tax preparation.
  • Projections and estimated payments: making sure that you’re setting the right money aside. 
  • How to determine if the S-Corp is the right fit for you.
  • Discussing payroll and how to establish your salary as a business owner. 
  • Diving deeper into Section 179 deductibles.

Episode Highlights

“Working with a professional will not solve any challenges or problems you have with disorganization.” — Tim Ulbrich [0:16:01]

“Having a strong understanding of how your business is doing financially is one of the best things that you can do as a business owner.” — Sean Richards [0:17:44]

“Paying yourself an equitable salary is not only the right thing to do by the eyes of the IRS, but it also really helps you think about where the business going and growing.” — Tim Ulbrich [0:45:48]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.8] TU: Hey everyone, I’m Tim Ulbrick, and I want to express my gratitude for you tuning in this week to the YFP Podcast. Each and every week, we’re dedicated to providing inspiration and support on your journey towards achieving financial freedom. 

On this week’s episode, we have a special guest joining us, that’s YFP’s director of tax and CPA, Sean Richards, here to dive into a crucial topic, a tax checklist for small business owners. Whether you’re a seasoned business owner or just starting out, we’ll explore eight key areas that demand your attention. We’ll touch on the fundamentals of bookkeeping, qualified deductible expenses, the benefits of financial projections for estimated payments, the significance of S-Corp status, insights on determining your owner’s compensation, and much more.

Before we dive into this insightful conversation, let’s take a moment to thank today’s sponsor, First Horizon. Afterward, we’re jumping to my conversation with Sean Richards.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[0:00:53.6] TU: Does saving 20% for a down payment on a home feel like an uphill battle? It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high student loan debt, meeting that saving 20% for a down payment on a home may take years. 

We’ve been on a hunt for a solution for pharmacists that are ready to purchase a home loan with a lower down payment and are happy to have found that option with First Horizon. First Horizon offers a professional home loan option, AKA, doctor or pharmacist home loan, that requires a 3% down payment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time home buyers, has no PMI, and offers a 30-year fixed rate mortgage on home loans up to USD 726,200.

The pharmacist home loan is available in all states except Alaska and Hawaii and can be used to purchase condos as well. However, rates may be higher and a condo review has to be completed. To check out the requirements for First Horizon’s Pharmacist Home Loan, and to start the pre-approval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:04.9] TU: Sean, welcome back to the show.

[0:02:06.5] SR: Thanks. Thanks for having me, yeah. Feels good, we’re through all the extension deadlines, business and individual and now we can hundred percent focus on next year. 

[0:02:14.2] TU: Hard to believe, right? We’re already talking about next tax season. You just had a webinar this week kicking off the beginnings of at least thinking about tax season. I know, many of our listeners, really, this comes to life in January, February, we’re trying to get people to think a little bit earlier, more year-round, and today, we’re focusing on really small business owner tax considerations and what are some things that people will be thinking about, planning about. 

Essentially, a checklist of sorts, and whether people are just getting started with a business or maybe they’ve been at it for a while and they can go back and see, “All right, maybe there’s some holes in the crack in the foundation that they need to go back and fill in.” We really hope that this can be an episode that people will come back and reference into the future as well of something they need to be thinking about as a small business owner as it relates to their taxes.

And Sean, we’re going to talk here and weave in some of our own personal experiences of how these things became obvious that we need to be doing as we’re growing the business but also, Sean, in the work that you’re doing and advising and working with other small business owners as well.

[0:03:15.2] SR: Yeah, there will be anecdotes from real life, with our own accounting of our own businesses and some of the people that we worked with and everything, yeah. There’s a lot in this one, I think it will be a good one to reference back to, I agree.

[0:03:25.9] TU: I know pharmacists like checklists and I know they like to know where we’re going. So, we’re going to cover eight different areas, we’ll go through these one by one and they’re really going to flow into one another, and so I think we’re going to start, maybe a little bit broader, Sean, and then we’ll get more narrow of considerations that folks should be thinking about.

Sean, number one on our list is record keeping. I think that anyone who has been in a business for any time or even if they’ve been thinking about starting, they’re being advised, maybe that’s – some advice have been given is, “Hey, you have to keep records,” But that can get lost, right? You’ve got an idea, you’re running things, it can be busy, tell us about record keeping, why it’s so important, and what people should be thinking about here.

[0:04:02.5] SR: Yeah, like you said, these will kind of flow into each other, and honestly, it’s – you kind of can’t have one of these items without what’s before it, and it all comes back to record keeping, really, at the end of the day. And that makes sense if you’re thinking about taxes and accounting just the way that they are. It’s generally, it’s the nature or say, looking back at something, it’s a historical look. 

So, you’re going to need to have references of the things that you did to be able to do something like that, but there’s just so many things that go into just being able to make decisions about your business when you’re filing taxes at the end of the year, when you’re doing tax planning, which I’ll get into a little bit later about the differences between tax planning and tax preparation. 

It all comes down to having good data, and having good data goes back to having good sourced data and inputs and everything. So just saving down everything that you can, related to the business, and I don’t mean that in the sense of just holding receipts and throwing it in the shoe box and just keeping all of the junk, but just making sure that if you’re doing financial transactions, you’re keeping them in a bank related to your business, you’re running down reports at the end of the month. 

Hopefully, you’re using some kind of ledger system like a QuickBooks or even Excel or something like that but even if not, just being able to say, “Hey, this is the money that I made this year, this is the money I paid this year.” And then even some of the ins and outs that you might not think or something that will directly relate to your taxes or business but might, if you ask your accountant about it, right? 

So, things like loan agreements and any type of employment agreements you have with folks. So, things like that. Just really, anything that you think at any point in time, “Hey, would my accountant ever possibly ask me about this?” or “May this possibly come into play when I’m doing my taxes in the future?” Bear to error on the set of caution, just keep everything. 

That being said, there’s actually some rules in some areas. So, generally speaking, I’d hold on to everything for at least three years. Some states have even longer record retention requirements but generally speaking, hold on to things for at least three years. Just get some cloud storage or a hard drive or something like that so you don’t have to take a physical space and just keep an eye on everything.

[0:06:08.1] TU: Yeah. And we use, at YFP, we use Google Drive for everything. So that becomes our system of – as you mentioned Sean, it’s not just receipts, right? It’s going to be the financial statements, whether someone’s producing those for you or you’re working on that yourself, and it might be a very basic Excel template that you’re starting with and then that will evolve over time. 

But it’s not just the receipts or the financials, it’s also the contracts, right? Things that you’re – you know, W9. I mean, just the – a lot of things that you’re going to be building over time.

[0:06:37.0] SR: Right, and even things that you might not think about. So, like, say you or you have an office space at home that you’re working out of. You can take a deduction for that and there’s a simplified way to do that with a square footage. But there’s also a way you can take actual expenses and generally, you’re going to want to do whatever is the most beneficial.

So, now we’re talking about, okay, mortgage interest and utilities and stuff but even on top of that, depreciations. So now we’re saying, “Hey, how much did you pay for your house 10 years ago?” or something. That might not be something that’s top of mind for folks but if it’s, again, even if it’s tangentially related to the business, there’s a chance you’re going to be able to possibly get a tax savings for it. 

Better to just hold onto it and ask somebody about it, “Hey, can I get a deduction for this? Is it worth me keeping this data, these records here?” And then just have someone tell you, “No, you don’t need that anymore.” And then you can get rid of it.

[0:07:26.2] TU: Yeah, perhaps I should have said this at the beginning, Sean, but I know we’re going to have some people that are listening that maybe have been at this for a while and they’re kind of realizing as we’re going through these eight things like, “Oh, my gosh, like, this is a hot mess” right?

[0:07:35.9] SR: Right.

[0:07:36.6] TU: And that’s normal. You joked about the receipts in the shoe box but there’s a fine line here between, “You can’t predict everything you don’t know yet.” And the system’s going to evolve over time. You don’t want to become paralyzed by all these things but also, you want to be thinking ahead as much as you possibly can, or working with someone that can help you anticipate, that has experience working with others as well.

[0:07:56.6] SR: Exactly.

[0:07:57.4] TU: And I think an important part of that record-keeping, Sean, has been moved to number two on our checklist is this concept of comingling personal and business and really wanting to separate these out and ideally, we’re doing this from jump street, right? So we can have clean records and again, this isn’t always done, whether someone’s anticipating where they’re going to go or maybe they’re confused about how to incorporate or do they need to set up an LLC.

Lots of things to consider here, but talk to us about the importance of separation of church and state when it comes to personal business.

[0:08:29.5] SR: I was going to say the separation of church and state but I wasn’t sure if that was alright. So, I’ve used it before but I held off for a minute. Yeah, I mean, that again, it’s going back to the record-keeping thing, and being able to produce data and produce useful information about your business. So, if you need to say to yourself, “All right, how much money did I make this year or how much did I make, how much did I spend in expenses to my vendors?”

If you have to then go and start pouring through and combing through bank accounts and picking out, “All right, well, this was related to my kid’s school stuff but this was related to the business trip that I went on” and everything, just the notion of even having to do that from the beginning is – it’s just stressful to even think about. There were legal sides to it too. I mean, if you have an LLC and you set up a separate business, it’s always kind of there to keep things separate.

[0:09:15.8] TU: Yeah.

[0:09:16.0] SR: Then it begins to become something where, like you said, you might not know at first, “Hey, I’m starting something out, it’s just a little side project, I’ll use my regular account for now and kind of keep track of things on paper.” Then all of a sudden, things expand and get bigger and hey, maybe you’re incorporating or bringing on partners and stuff, and then you start getting into things, which I won’t really go too deep into because I’ll put the audience to sleep.

But you start talking about your basis in a partnership interest or something like that or your basis as a shareholder in a corporation, and if you’re sharing funds or borrowing things from here and putting it in this pocket and using your personal home equity line of credit to fund the line of business that you’re doing, it just, it muddies the waters too much from the beginning.

So, to any extent, you can keep that stuff separate. That’s the recommendation. That being said, number one is, if you’ve already done some things where, “Hey, I’ve put a couple of expenses on this card” it’s not the end of the world, it’s just being able to identify those things. So, if you can go back now and start to be able to put a report together where you’re chipping away the personal stuff and you have the business stuff ready now or towards the end of the year and not in April or March actually, if we’re talking about business returns.

But the other thing is that you don’t have to necessarily hold yourself to that a million percent. And I know this is offering up not a best practice but there will be times when I have people come to me and say, “Hey, if I go put this big credit card or this big flight on my personal card that I just opened up, I’m going to get myself a huge refund back from my credit or big reward, then I’ll be able to put back in the business” or something like that.

Those things will happen and it makes sense, you have to do it. It just goes back to the record-keeping thing. Let your accountant know or keep track yourself. “Hey, this was a loan from me as a business owner to the business and now, I’m going to actually pay myself back that amount from my business account.” Just keep track of it that way. Don’t completely handcuff yourself but make sure you try to keep things as separate as you possibly can.

[0:11:19.3] TU: Yeah, that’s great stuff. I think too, there’s – you mentioned some of the legal piece, which again, we’re not lawyers but that’s an important consideration of keeping things separate and where the liability protection ends. I think the other thing I see here, Sean, often, is the idea of starting, setting up a business, registering with the state, getting your employer identification number, opening a bank account. 

That seems big and scary, which I think can be intimidating to people that are on the front of it but it’s really not that difficult nor is it that expensive. And so I think, as early as you possibly can, once you’ve got that bank account and the business’s name that’s really going to help you with the record-keeping being separate. The other thing I would just say is from a visibility and a cleanliness as an owner to understanding where your business is at. 

Like, we don’t want to muddy those waters as you talked about, right? So, I want to be able to quickly see, how’s the revenue, how’s the expenses, where are we at? And obviously as you grow, you’re going to look at this period versus another period and what’s the growth or not the growth. What do we need to change?

So, I think really having good insight into what’s the health of the business, the separation helps. And then the other thing I would add, which is a little bit more in the mindset side of things is sometimes when we are just starting, we have some of that resistance and devastation of like, “Well, this is just kind of small and I’m not sure where it’s going to go and so, I’m just going to do it with my personal.” 

Like, believe in yourself, right? Where are we going? And worst-case scenario as we dissolve the business, we shut down the banking account and we move on, but I think really establishing the goals that you have for the business as well.

[0:12:49.4] SR: Right, and we’ll talk about it in a little bit more later but the LLC thing, again, neither of us are lawyers but a lot of people get scared by that because they think, “Oh, it’s a new entity, it’s going to open up this whole separate tax thing.” But most of the time, if you’re a sole proprietorship and you open an LLC, it’s just going to land on your personal tax return like kind of a regular side business anyways. So don’t let that notion of things scare you too much.

[0:13:12.1] TU: All right, number three on our list, Sean. Number three is working with a professional. You’ve alluded to this a couple of different times. Some people, as it gets started, they may work with a professional right away, they may wait, and that could either be an accountant, bookkeeper, both, we’ll talk about bookkeeping basics here in a little bit. 

This was one of the first areas, Sean, that we actually outsourced at YFP, as we were looking at growing the business. We had times where that perspective was very helpful and times where we’re like, maybe not. So, I think this is a challenge where, “You know what? I’m going to hire someone that can really understand my business and advise me.” And I often had this feeling of, “I don’t know what I don’t know”, right? 

So, I’m looking for someone to kind of guide me, rather than just being there when I have questions. So, talk to us about the working with the professional. Maybe the “When”, as well as, what are we looking for in that relationship?

[0:14:01.8] SR: Yeah, and like you mentioned, we’re going to go into bookkeeping basics, but I think having this n your checklist of where you’re in the end of the year, and really any point in the business year is trying to make that determination, “Hey, am I going to do this or not?” You don’t even necessarily have to go down the path of understanding all of the ins and outs of the bookkeeping if you’re going to decide off the bat, “Hey, I’m going to pay somebody to do that for me.” 

Not that you shouldn’t get the basics and stuff, but if you’re going to say, “Hey, I want to outsource this now and have somebody run that whole show”, you don’t necessarily even have to get yourself in the weeds from the beginning. But I think it’s just one of those things that you have to decide, like you were saying, where do you want to be spending your time and your energy and where are your strengths and your weaknesses, right? 

So, if maybe you have a finance background and you say, “I can put a couple of hours towards this and it’s not a big deal, I got a pretty good handle on things and I can run it myself.” That’s perfectly fine but you might be saying to yourself, “Hey, I know a lot of people who just absolutely hate everything to do with numbers” and that’s okay too. If number scare you and you hate numbers, that’s fine but they’re not going to go away. 

So, ignoring them or trying to just say, “Hey, we’ll get there at the end of the year and figure it out then.” I mean, that is one way to do it but it’s certainly not the best way to do it. So, I think it’s just something where you have to really think about where you’re at, what your strengths and weaknesses are, and also what do you want to do when it comes to tax season, right? 

If you’re talking about a sole proprietorship then that’s going to land on your personal return, that’s probably something that you can handle. But if you’re getting into partnerships and corporations, now you’re filing different returns and they’re a little bit more than a regular person’s probably used to with HNR block or whatever. So, that’ might begin to necessitate having a tax professional just sheerly out of expertise. 

So, there’s a lot of different things. I always use the accountant cop-out answer that Tim Baker uses of, “It depends.” But it really does depend. But I think having that decision early on in your process will help plan out the rest of everything else that we’re going to talk about in a minute.

[0:15:57.6] TU: And this is worth saying, and maybe saying again and saying again, which is working with a professional will not solve any challenges or problems you have with disorganization, right?

[0:16:07.7] SR: Correct.

[0:16:08.6] TU: They can advise, they can help, they can – we talked about things like record keeping, but they’re not there from an organization standpoint. I think this is something, again, no judgment, right? People that are just getting started in the business, you’re focusing on the business, you’re growing things, you may not be thinking about organization and records and all that, but at some point, that’s got to become a priority. And if they’re working with someone the first time, that may not be something that is top of mind, so.

[0:16:32.7] SR: Yeah, but a professional though also can, on the flip side and again, it’s not going to be – it’s not going to solve disorganization problems but can definitely help advise with, “Hey, you’ve been struggling keeping track of all these things. Why don’t you get a QuickBooks subscription, we’ll connect all your bank accounts and then I can handle things from there and keep track of things as they come in.” 

And now, all of a sudden, you’re not panicking every month or every year with the thousand transactions. You have a bookkeeper who is going in every week or every month and categorizing things and sending you reports, so. 

[0:17:01.9] TU: Yeah.

[0:17:02.1] SR: Again, it might not solve your problems with a wave of a magic wand but they can definitely get you there.

[0:17:08.7] TU: So, let’s go to number four on our small business owner tax checklist, and Sean, that’s bookkeeping. We’ve danced around this here a couple of times so far but whether or not someone is working with a bookkeeper, there are things they have to be ready for and make sure that they’re tracking. So, talk to us about those items that they have to be ready to report on, whether they’re doing it themselves or whether they’re working with someone that they hire.

[0:17:30.5] SR: Yup, like you said, and like I was just saying before too, even if you have somebody who is doing this for you, reporting on it, and kind of explaining it all to you, you still have to generally be able to understand what they’re talking about, right? I mean, you can only break things down in layman’s terms so much, and having a strong understanding of how your business is doing financially is obviously, one of the best things that you can do as a business owner, I think.

So, if you take a look at – and I’ll talk about the entity types in a little bit – but if you look at the three main, or at least in my mind, tax returns that you’ll have for small businesses typically is a schedule C on your 1040. That’s just your regular kind of sole proprietorship. It can be an LLC, cannot, but just a regular person side gig kind of thing, and then you have a 1065 which is a partnership. 

So that’s the default if you have an LLC and you have more than one person, and then S-Corp, I’m sure a lot of people have heard of that say, 1120-s. Those are the three main forms that you typically see for filing business returns at the end of the year. If you look at the three of those, the main front of the forms, they’re all basically the same thing. You have your revenues, your, “Hey, what were my sales, what was my service income if I had any other kind of income, and what were my expenses?”

And you’ll see that all three of them have generally the same categories for expenses. Like advertising and travel and mortgage interest and things like that. So, it’s pretty similar across the board and you’re going to really have to be able to report on that stuff, no matter what kind of business you run, you’re going to have to know what your revenues are and you’re going to have to know what your expenses are.

Revenues, I’m not really going to spend a whole heck of a lot of time on. I mean, I think people generally kind of have a feel for that, it’s cash in the door. The one thing I would say there is if you’re doing service revenue, it might be a little bit harder to track when you’re actually performing a service and getting paid versus actually selling a good. So, a little bit more keep eye on there but honestly, again, people typically have a good feel for that.

It’s more the expense side that I think things can kind of trip people up on. You typically think, “Hey, whenever I’m spending cash out the door that’s going to be an expense for the business and I can probably deduct it.” And generally, that’s true, but there’s a lot of things that come in that can mix that up a little bit. I mean, property is one thing. I was mentioning before, depreciation, right? 

So, you probably think, “Hey, I’m paying for this office space and I have a mortgage on it. My mortgage, I should be able to write that off, right?” Mortgage interest you can but the mortgage principle, you don’t. You get that back via depreciation but again, that’s something you might not be thinking about or might not really have insight into, or vehicles for example. You can have a billion different ways to write off vehicle expenses. 

Whether you’re taking actual expenses or like a standard mileage rate. It all depends on how much you’re using the vehicle for business purposes, there’s all sorts of depreciation rules and stuff. There’s just a lot when it comes to expenses. So, that’s probably the biggest area on the PNL at least, the profit and loss statement to really have a good handle on when it comes to basic bookkeeping stuff.

[0:20:25.4] TU: Sean, as you’re talking, it’s reminding me of – sorry to interrupt you, it’s reminding me of Schitt’s Creek episode where Johnny Rose – 

[0:20:33.4] SR: Yeah. I already know where this is going.

[0:20:35.0] TU: You can’t just buy things for yourself and deduct them as an expense.

[0:20:39.8] SR: It’s a write-off, it’s just a write-off, exactly.

[0:20:42.1] TU: It’s a write-off, just a write-off.

[0:20:43.4] SR: And hey, a lot of times, and we’ll talk about what’s a deductible business expense. A lot of times, if you’re spending money on a business, it is but you’re correct, you can’t just be like David Rose and just go buy everything.

[0:20:54.3] TU: Oh my gosh.

[0:20:55.7] SR: From the blouse barn. So, that’s the PNL. The balance sheet is kind of – I don’t want to say, it’s the ugly stepchild of the financial statements but it’s the one that people generally have an actually have a pretty good understanding of it without even really knowing what a balance sheet is just because of the nature of two of the biggest components of it. So, your balance sheet is going to be your assets, it’s kind of one-half of the calculation and then the other half is liabilities and equity. 

So, assets are pretty much what you think. If you look up the book definition of an asset, it’s kind of what it is for a business. It’s kind of what it is for a business. It’s basically something that’s expected to generate money for you, it’s a positive sort of resource that you have so cash, receivables, things like that, property, equipment. Again, things that people probably have a pretty good handle on.

“Hey, I have this much cash in the bank, Johnny owes me this much money and I own all these cars” right? Liabilities is the other side, on the other side. So, that’s the opposite of the asset basically. It’s like, “Hey, loans, do I have debt, do I have credit cards, do I have a mortgage? Do I owe my vendors?” Things like that.

So again, people typically have a pretty good handle of that, whether they’re really thinking about it or not, you usually know, “Hey, what are my credit card balances, what’s my line of credit balance?” whatever. Equity is the piece that is sort of – it always just ends up being the plug piece but it’s really important when it comes to taxes. So, if you think about – I was alluding to before, you were in a partnership.

You have a basis in that partnership and again, if you’re not an accountant, you might be thinking like, “What in the world is that?” It’s something that, I don’t want to say it gets overlooked but if you’re not really thinking about it from the beginning and again, getting back to commingling funds and stuff, basis is something that really matters a lot in the tax calculation. But can get muddied very quickly if you don’t have a handle on things. 

And that really comes into play, equity is really where that kind of lands and I’ll caution that, if you look on the balance sheet, you look at equity, that doesn’t mean that that’s your basis or if you have multiple partners and stuff, it doesn’t necessarily equal that. But being able to have a handle on what your equity is, it really is a value of your company if you think about it. It’s your assets minus your liabilities. If everything right now came due and you had to pay off all of your vendors and everything, what do you have left? 

That’s the value for your business. So, like I said, it’s the one that’s overlooked a little bit and it’s not as easy to maintain. Typically you don’t have to report a balance sheet if you have a small business and you’re doing like sole proprietorship or something, but it’s something that if you can get somebody to keep those books for you and be able to have a handle on it.

[0:23:28.2] TU: So, as you mentioned, assets equals liabilities plus equity or we could change the equation around assets minus liabilities equals equity, right?

[0:23:35.6] SR: Again, exactly right.

[0:23:36.6] TU: So, is my high school math still good?

[0:23:38.4] SR: Yes, that would be algebra. Very, very good. 

[0:23:41.2] TU: So, let’s talk more within the bookkeeping basics here. Let’s talk more about the deductible expenses, right? This is probably one of the most common questions that we get you alluded to before that – especially early on the journey, people may have this perception of, “Hey, I can buy anything for the businesses and it’s a deductible expense.” So, define that term just a little bit further and why that’s important, and then some of the most common areas or deductible expenses that small business owners should be thinking about.

[0:24:06.8] SR: Yup. Sure. So, deductibility, it really comes down to the main things. So, is it ordinary and necessary? So, that basically means, if I have a business, is that expense something that actually makes sense in the course of a business? So, if you own a financial education company and you’re buying courses for your employees to take to learn about education and finance and stuff, that’s probably an ordinary expense.

If you’re buying tickets to – I was going to say, the Phillies in the World Series but they’re not really there, I guess. So, if you’re buying tickets to a baseball game or something, that’s probably not an ordinary expense, right? So, sorry for the low blow. I actually was rooting for the Phillies this year, that wasn’t meant to be, it just popped in my head first thing. So, ordinary necessaries, number one. Reasonable, which is in the same kind of vein but similar sort of thing.

So right, if we go back to that example I was just giving in, your employees are purchasing education, financial education courses, right? If those courses cost USD 500, a thousand dollars or something, it’s probably reasonable. If those courses cost USD 250,000 each, that’s starting to be, “Hey, you know, what’s going on there?” In fact, it’s probably not started to be, it’s definitely unreasonable but I think you get what I’m saying.

[0:25:19.3] TU: Yeah. 

[0:25:19.3] SR: And then the third piece is paid during the year or if you’re on the accrual basis incurred during the year. But generally speaking paid but as the case is with everything, there is a lot of exceptions to these rules and with expenses in particular, those exceptions come out quite a bit. So, when we think common deductible expenses, cost of goods sold is going to be the most common or easy to identify if you’re a retail business or you’re selling goods. 

And then the flip side of that, of the analogy I guess is if you have a service business, it’s not as easy to say, “What’s my cost of goods sold?” because you’re not selling a good but being able to determine, “Hey, what are my direct expenses directly related to the services that I’m providing?” So, it’s typically labor, contract labor, things like that. Compensation, so that’s one that is usually is a deductible expense. 

However, it very often is not something that’s a deductible expense if it’s for an owner-employee of whatever this is. So, and you know, I’ll get into a little bit of specifics in a bit with some of these different entity types but if you’re a sole proprietorship and you are paying yourself and it is a little bit contradictory to what I was saying before where you want to be able to kind of keep good books and keep records of everything. 

So, you’re probably saying, “All right, I’m working 40 hours a week on my business. I am paying myself 50 grand a year” whatever it is, that’s a salary expense to me, and then you write that off. But as an owner of a sole proprietorship, that’s not something that’s a deductible expense and that comes into play if you’re S-Corp. Some of those, some of the compensation that you’re getting. 

If it is a salary expense, that will be deductible but then if you’re taking profit distributions, it’s not. So, there is a lot when it comes into compensation. If you’re paying contractors, separate contractors that aren’t yours generally speaking, that will be deductible but more just trying to give the caution flag here of, “Hey, if you are paying anybody particularly yourself, keep an eye on that.” 

[0:27:15.7] TU: That’s really good, Sean. I think that can evolve, right? So, somebody may start as a sole proprietor, they may then have partners or not, they may or may not become an S-Corp. So, this topic of owner’s compensation and a deductible expense is one that may be ongoing. 

[0:27:30.3] SR: Oh, absolutely. It’s something – and we’ll talk about the S-Corp thing in a little bit – but exactly right. And that’s not something that is going to be set in stone and even something like not necessarily related to deductible expenses, but even something like setting aside money for taxes. I mean, you might have a rate in your head that, “Hey, I’m going to put aside 15, 20%” that can change drastically year to year depending on what things are happening with your business or your personal. 

[0:27:52.9] TU: Yeah. 

[0:27:53.3] SR: So just another thing that as with everything else, a lot of these rules and things to keep in mind aren’t necessarily set in stone for any particular point in time. On the subject of compensation, health insurance is another big one. So, that’s one that again, you got to really want to be careful about. I can’t get into all the rules now but the big thing there is really if your spouse is eligible for health insurance through whatever company they work for. 

If it’s unrelated to your small business that usually makes it nondeductible on your side, so just something to keep in mind in there. Again, I won’t go into everything but there is a lot of rules around health insurance. Travel, a lot of rules around that. So, if you’re going on business and you are spending time overnight and the primary purpose is for business, most of those expenses generally speaking will be deductible. 

But if it’s for leisure, probably not and the big one with transportation and travel is commuting to and from your office is never deductible. That’s the big one there that people will say, “Well, what if I work from home sometimes but then I have an office space that I go to?” If that’s a primary office location, probably not going to be a deductible expense, so that’s a big one to keep in mind.

And that’s huge too when you’re thinking about, if I am buying a vehicle and I’m taking these depreciation deductions and stuff, the mileage that you’re commuting to and from your office does not count towards business mileage, so very important to keep in mind. 

[0:29:14.6] TU: You’ve reminded me of that many times, which is good. 

[0:29:17.5] SR: Yeah, yeah, probably in a good way, right? 

[0:29:20.2] TU: Yes, yeah. 

[0:29:20.9] SR: And then you’re rolling your eyes at me kind of way. 

[0:29:22.5] TU: Yeah. 

[0:29:23.2] SR: So, one item I’ll mention as far as the exceptions to the rules I was talking about with being paid during the year is rent. So, I know a lot of people will say, “Oh, perfect. December, I’ll prepay next year’s rent and just be able to take a nice deduction this year for it.” IRS caught onto that one pretty quickly, so rent they actually specifically say, “Hey, if you prepay it, you can only take deductions for the time that it applies to.” 

And then a big one that I mentioned before is the business use of home. So, if you are using a home office space and you’re – it’s dedicated and you’re using that for your business, you usually can’t take a deduction for that and there’s two methods, a simplified, “Hey, what’s my square footage?” and you’re taking five bucks a square foot or you’re taking a percentage of your actual expenses for your home. 

The big thing there though is that I think that I kind of alluded to, it has to be strictly dedicated to that business. So, not like a half office half bedroom kind of situation. It needs to be fully for the business and really – 

[0:30:20.4] TU: Which is important with work-at-home transitions. I’m thinking about where people have bedroom office type of set up, so. 

[0:30:28.0] SR: Yeah and I mean, really, I mean I hit a couple of the big ones there as far as the expenses that are nondeductible that people often think might be. It’s really just; think of the opposite of what I just said, right? So, if you are you’re on and it’s for personal purposes, if you’re driving to and from your office, you’re going to baseball games, entertainment expenses aren’t deductible. 

Federal income tax too, that’s another big one that people think, “Hey, it’s a tax.” Alot of taxes are deductible, property taxes, estate taxes, but the Federal one itself it’s – that would be a circular reference. 

[0:31:00.3] TU: Yes, they were in. 

[0:31:00.8] SR: That they were able to, right? So, if you get that one, then your math’s definitely working nice.

[0:31:05.0] TU: Yeah. Well, I think this is an area and obviously, I’m biased, Sean, we’ve got a team that does this, and your expertise on our team knows how to do small business accounting and bookkeeping and fractional CFO and TAx 4. Obviously, I’m biased there but I think you have to ask yourself as a business owner like this is just a lot to have on your mind, right? 

So, could you learn all this, could you DIY this, could you record keep, could you bookkeep? Like technically the answer is yes. 

[0:31:31.8] SR: Right and it’s possible.

[0:31:33.2] TU: But as you think about your capacity of attention and where you need to be focusing your energy, there is a point where there’s just so many nuances and here we’re really talking more on the side of let’s make sure we’re not calling something deductible that’s nondeductible. I think really the next level is more of the, what can we be doing strategically to optimize our tax situation? And that’s a huge value of having someone in your corner. 

I do want to pause for a moment, I will be remised Sean, if I didn’t explain the Phillies reference to our listeners. 

[0:32:05.6] SR: Okay, all right, that’s fair. 

[0:32:06.8] TU: So, if our listeners don’t know, Sean’s in New Hampshire but he’s a huge Boston sports guy, and just in the past week, Tim Baker’s Phillies were eliminated from the NLCS and I assume as a Red Sox fan, that’s just beaming with joy, right? You’re a Red Sox fan. 

[0:32:23.6] SR: You know, I am a Red Sox fan but honestly, with the Phillies this year, I kind of thought it was a team of destiny sort of thing, I’ll root against a Philadelphia team if they’re going up against the Boston team because I mean it’s the in-law sort of thing. And you know if it’s the 76ers, I don’t like because they’re in conference and stuff but the Phillies, it’s NLAL, I actually was pulling for them. So, I was rooting for them by that one but at the same time, it’s a little bit of win-win. 

[0:32:50.4] TU: But the other thing why Sean is having a good week is I think the listeners know me, I’m a huge Buffalo Bill’s fan, and the New England Patriots miraculously beat the Buffalo Bills this week so.

[0:32:58.8] SR: Yes, which the term miraculous wouldn’t really have made sense for the last 20 or so years but now, it definitely does. So yeah, it’s been a good week but I think I’ll be crashing back down to reality this weekend, so we’ll see. 

[0:33:09.5] TU: Only the Buffalo Bills hand, Bill Belichick a milestone win, so I’m going to leave at that. All right, number five on our list is projections, estimated payments, making sure we’re setting money aside. I’m guessing if we have listeners that have been at this for a while, they’ll probably remember maybe an early part of their journey where it’s like, “Oh, I didn’t think about that” right? 

Didn’t know how to make estimate payments, didn’t think about how much I should set aside, and how I should project that. So, who needs to be making quarterly payments and talk to us about the process of determining that and then setting aside those dollars in planning? 

[0:33:43.8] SR: Yep, so I mean doing a projection, it all kind of comes back to what I was talking about way the beginning of this saying the difference between tax planning and tax preparation. So tax preparation, I actually always use the same analogy, I’ll use it again but I always think of tax planning as being like a film director who can sort of see things as they’re going with the actors and change course and say, “Hey, cut, re-film that, do this over.” 

And then tax preparation is the film editor who gets all the stuff and still plays an important role, works their magic, makes it all look nice. But it’s all stuff that’s already been done and you can’t turn back time and re-film any of those things, right? So, all of the kinds of theme of this entire conversation has been the idea of tax planning and actually being able to project what you think your liability is going to be at the end of the year.

And that’s where you start to get into what you’re just talking about, now we’re not talking about, “Hey, what is and what isn’t deductible” but now it can look at, “Hey, where do we have opportunities to take advantage of tax code and make a purchase and take advantage of accelerated depreciation or change our entity classification or something?” But in order to do that, you need to be able to do a projection. 

In order to be able to do a projection, you need to have books and in order to have books, you have records. So, you see how it all kind of works itself up, right? 

[0:35:00.9] TU: Yeah. 

[0:35:01.4] SR: But yeah, I mean, a projection, I think the biggest thing there, so it all comes down to what your tax classification is. So, if it’s Schedule C, you’re kind of looking at what you expect your profit and loss to be at the end of the year and you’re building that into your 1040 and then similarly, if you’re a chair holder of even an S-Corp or partnership or something, you’re going to get your distributed share of that income on a K1 at the end of the year. 

That’s going to come into your tax return, so it’s a little bit of – most of the time it’s thinking more about the tax on your personal side and less so on the business side. A lot of small businesses actually are passed through entities, where the business itself was not paying the tax, it’s actually the owners or the shareholders. So, when I say tax planning for your business, it actually is really a little bit more tax explaining on the personal side. 

But how does my business play into that and the biggest piece there is that usually small businesses will be subject to self-employment income, number one. And number two is that almost always business income won’t have any withholdings associated. 

[0:36:00.4] TU: Yeah. 

[0:36:00.8] SR: So, that’s when you need to start thinking about, “Do I have to make estimated payments? Should I be setting money aside at the end of the year?” So, there’s ways to do that, I mean again, doing a projection and really kind of you know, projection is kind of what it sounds like, you’re basically building a tax return now just with what you think it’s going to end at the end of the year. 

So doing that is good and then that will get you, “Hey, this is what I think my tax bill is going to be and this is what I think my withholdings are going to be” and everything and if you think you’re going to owe more than a thousand dollars, you should be making estimated payments, that’s the general rule. There’s something called the safe harbor, so the easy calc there, the easiest way to do it and being ultra-conservative as accountants tend to is take last year’s tax liability and multiply it by 110%, 1.1. 

And as long as you pay that in by the end of the year through withholdings and/or estimated payments or some kind of combination, then you won’t have any penalties. You can also do that with this year’s 90% of this year’s tax. But if you can – what I’m getting out with that, that’s not a known number, your last year’s tax liability is on your – 

[0:37:04.6] TU: More conservative, yeah. 

[0:37:05.5] SR: This year’s tax liability, you probably have a good handle on it but it could change, right?

[0:37:09.8] TU: Especially if you’re growing or there – just thinking about variability and this is another example, just a peak behind the curtain, Sean, of, you advising us here at YFP, this is something we’re looking at you know evolving into the future. So, you know we’re big believers in the Profit First methodology. We’ve talked about that before on the show, great book, great resource. 

There is a recommendation there for X percent of all revenue should go into a tax account. But what we found for us is that wasn’t a perfect number, because of just our personal situation as well as some of the tax benefits of being in the great State of Ohio, you know? 

[0:37:09.8] SR: Right. 

[0:37:43.5] TU: And then, so there’s – that’s one example where things are unique, and then we kind of evolve to our own calculation, which I would say is probably closer to maybe the general rule of thumb that’s out there of, “Hey, take 25%, set it aside” and then we realize, “Hey, that’s got some holes because tax situations are different.” You know, how many kids you have, what’s the total household income, all of these variables, right?

So, I think the projection piece along with what you’re suggesting on the safe harbor is so important, right? As you’re planning for the business because you want to find yourself in that situation where you don’t want a bunch of money sitting in an account that as a growing business, if you didn’t have to make that much in tax payments you could have utilize to grow the business. 

There is an opportunity cost there but we also don’t want to be surprised and put a stress on the cash flow of our business that we go to file in April and we’ve got this big tax bill due. 

[0:38:33.9] SR: Exactly, it’s a push-and-pull kind of thing. 

[0:38:35.6] TU: Yeah. 

[0:38:35.9] SR: So, being able to – at any extent that you’re able to nail that down as close as you can, like you’re saying, it’s better that way, right? You don’t want to loan the government any more money than you have to but you also don’t want to end up owing a ton of money that you may or may not have or on top of that, have any penalties where I think is associated with it too, so yeah. 

[0:38:52.8] TU: Number six on our checklist, Sean, relate to the S-Corp status, I would pursue maybe outside of, “Hey Sean, can I deduct this expense?” maybe the second most common question or pretty close to the top is, “Should I be a S-Corp?” It’s one of those things that people just throw out there of, “Hey, there’s tax benefits of being an S-Corp status.” Tell us more about what that means and when people may be asking or should be asking that question. 

[0:39:14.8] SR: Yeah, and I mean again, the theme of the whole thing is that you’re kind of looking at these things and at least at one point in the year, hopefully around now, but actually more ongoing, but at least at one point in the year saying, “What is my tax classification now and is that what it’s going to be next year or does that make the most sense next year?” So, before I even do S-Corp I’ll give the three like I had mentioned earlier in the call. 

The three most common ones that I would think of small businesses as a sole proprietorship, one person that’s what you see on your schedule, see they call it, and if you – and the biggest thing with this is that for all of these different classifications, LLCs can be any one of these. That’s the thing, if people will say, “Oh, I’m an LLC” any one of these, an LLC is a legal entity distinction versus these are tax classifications. 

You can be an LLC and classify in any one of these, as long as you fit the right requirements. So, that’s one thing to keep in mind. Again, people hear that, they think it means something different or, “Hey, my taxes are going to be different.” It doesn’t necessarily mean the case. So, sole proprietorships are the most common. If you file an LLC for a single person, that’s the default. 

The biggest thing there is that, that is subject to self-employment tax, and then again, that does not have – there’s no withholding. So, you’d want to make sure that you’re keeping track of any estimated payments and stuff. Partnerships is the default for an LLC with two plus people. So, if you and your friend or you and your sibling or something go start a business and you start an LLC, the default for that one is a partnership and that actually is a different tax return and everything. 

So that’s where again, it begins to become a little bit more than just, “Hey, I’m starting this little business.” Your share of ownership income from a partnership is subject to self-employment taxes. So, when you get your K1 at the end of the year from your partnership, that is subject to self-employment tax, which basically is just the employer portion of FICA that you don’t have because you don’t have an employer, it’s you. 

S-Corps is the more kind of exciting piece. So that is, you can have any number of owners but that is where you’re actually incorporating your business and you’re basically – it’s being taxed like a corporation now. And the biggest thing with that is that you don’t have the self-employment tax portion for what you get on your K1. So, if you were in a partnership today and you and your partners each got a K1 and reported that income, there’s self-employment tax on it. 

And then you become an S-Corp tomorrow, effectively that same stuff that’s on that K1, that same income is not subject to self-employment tax. Now, you’re probably thinking to yourself, “Wow, that sounds too good to be true.” It’s not that it is, it’s just that there are catches associated with it and the biggest catch is that when you make that jump to S-Corp, you have to be able to pay yourself as an owner a reasonable W2 salary with the FICA withholdings and everything, AKA, self-employment tax on top of any profit distributions that you’re going to be making, and that right there is the deciding point. 

Well, what people will probably say is, “Okay, well, what’s a reasonable salary and when can I make that?” and there comes my cop-out accountant answer of, “It depends” and it really does depend because you can think about a million different things. “All right, hey, I am starting a small business and I am going to be the CEO and I’m a pharmacist who is going to be providing advisory on pharmacy things.” 

Okay, is your salary a CEO salary? Because I’m sure if I Google CEO salary, the average is probably 10 million dollars or something. Is it pharmacist’s salary? Is that, I mean, are you doing mostly pharmacy-related things? Well, you’re probably will also going to be doing some bookkeeping and administrative stuff too, right? So, is it kind of an admin salary? Figuring out what that is, there really is no science to it. 

It is more of an art than a science. You have to be able to say, “Hey, this is a job that I’m doing, you know, these are comparable salaries of people that are making” and you have to be able to pay yourself, “Hey, this is what I feel and I truly believe isn’t a reasonable wage per my industry per the work that I’m doing and everything”, and you need to be able to do that again before you make that jump to S-Corp. 

And in order, once again, to determine if you can do that, you need to be able to say, “Hey, where am I in the books? Where do I expect my profit to be this year? Do I think I’m going to have a ton of profit on my K1 or I’m going to have a lot of self-employment tax? I don’t want to pay that self-employment tax, so now can I switch to S-Corp?” Well, let’s see. Do I have enough room in my profits from last year to cut myself a salary that the IRS will think is reasonable compared to other entrepreneurs that are doing the same sort of thing? 

I don’t know. I mean, I really would have to look at your finances and we’d have to talk about a lot of things. It’s a very, very long conversation but it’s a very important one because it can save you a lot of money in taxes. But it all kind of comes down to – my questions back to you will be, “What’s your expected profit and loss look? What have you been taking as distributions so far?” 

And if you can’t answer those questions, then we can’t even have this conversation. So it’s a lot of it depends but it all once again comes back to being able to have the numbers to even start to have that conversation to begin with. So, if anybody is still awake, I hope that kind of explains that. 

[0:44:27.8] TU: It’s good. 

[0:44:28.1] SR: I’m sure that put quite a few folks to sleep. 

[0:44:30.6] TU: No, it was good because this comes up so much, right? We’ve talked about this internally a lot of what’s the right amount of paying ourselves and how do we determine that and it’s so subjective, right? And number seven on our list was going to be payroll and paying yourself enough. So, you did a nice job of covering on both of those in one. 

[0:44:45.2] SR: Yep, exactly. 

[0:44:46.0] TU: And you know, just for some insights and how we have handled this, not to say this is advice in any way, shape, or form, and I would reference people. There’s a book called, Simple Numbers, Straight Talk, Big Profits! that is written by Greg Crabtree that I think does a nice job of addressing this issue. 

[0:45:01.6] SR: Yes. 

[0:45:02.1] TU: Not just from a, “Hey, the IRS is going to be concerned” if you’re kind of applying like a stockless salary, but also I think what’s important about this is, are you thinking about your salary in the context of what the business is and potentially is worth? So, what I mean by that is let’s say Tim Baker and I decided that at some point we want to wake up and sell our business. 

Well, if somebody buys it, they may not want to operate it necessarily. Maybe they do but if they don’t, they’re going to be asking themselves, “Hey, what does it cost to replace Tim or what does it cost to replace Tim?” And so if that answer is X and we’re paying ourselves a lot less than that – because then you could argue, are we really giving ourselves a true look at the profitability, the actual profitability of the business? 

And I think paying yourself an equitable salary is not only is the right thing to do by the eyes of the IRS but it also really helps you think about where is the business going and growing. Now, there is a balance there, right? If you don’t have to pay yourself USD 200,000, you can save on taxes and argue you’re paying yourself a reasonable salary, then obviously you want to do that. 

So, good resource and reference I think about with that book I mentioned. Sean, number eight on our list, which is our last item on the small business owner checklist, is seeing about some of the big purchases. We talked about deductible expenses but specifically want to dig a little bit deeper around Section 179 deductible expenses. Tell us more there. 

[0:46:26.1] SR: Yeah, that’s so – that’s really when you think about deductible expenses, the IRS basically says, “Hey, nothing is deductible unless we tell you that it is pretty much.” And when they start to incentivize larger purchases it’s because that’s what they want people to invest in. So, Section 179 is effectively the government’s way of saying, “Hey, typically you have these big things like vehicles and other equipment type purchases that you’d have to pay for upfront now but then only be able to take a little bit into depreciation every year.” 

“That’s not fair to small businesses, we want to encourage folks to put money to the business. So, we’re going to let you if you buy things that fit these bills, take that money on the first year.” Which is awesome to be able to do, especially if you have to make these purchases and it makes sense for your business. But the biggest thing by far that I would say and once again, it rolls back into everything is you really want to make sure like, “Hey, do I have to make these purchases at some point now or in the near future or am I just doing this so I can get a deduction this year?” 

Because yeah, it’s great to get a tax deduction but that’s really only a percentage. It’s not a credit, it’s not a dollar-for-dollar savings, it’s really only a percentage of a savings. So, if it’s something that you have to spend, “Hey, I’m going to have to buy a car next year anyway and I have all this profit this year and I can take that depreciation and offset those profits,” cool, but you need to be able to figure that out and if you don’t have good numbers, you can’t do it. 

[0:47:43.5] TU: Yeah. 

[0:47:43.5] SR: And if you look at your numbers and saying, “Hey, I’m going to break even right now and I don’t need a car,” then you probably shouldn’t be going out there and trying to take advantage of the Section 179 file. 

[0:47:51.0] TU: Yeah, great stuff. We’ve covered a lot, Sean, on this and we’re going to come back to these topics in the future on the show but we want to have this one episode that we could point back to and say, “Hey, small business owner” again, whether you’ve been established and you want to go back and look at some of these things or you’re just getting started wanting to build a strong foundation, we wanted this episode to be that resource. 

So, looking forward to building upon this in the future as well. If folks want to learn more about the tax and accounting services that we offer, that Sean and his team offer at YFP Tax, you can go to yfptax.com. We’ll link to that in the show notes as well. You can book a free discovery call to learn more about those services, we’ll learn more about you to determine whether or not there’s a good fit there. 

For business owners, we offer everything from business tax filing, bookkeeping, all the way up to fractional CFO services, payroll, so depending on where you’re at in the journey, it might be, “Hey, we need all of that” or “We just need a portion of that” and we could grow together over time. So, Sean, thanks so much again for your time. 

[0:48:47.3] SR: Thank you, Tim, have a good one. 

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:48:48.9] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists on the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s Pharmacist Home Loan, which requires a 3% down payment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time home buyers, has no PMI on a 30-year fixed rate mortgage. 

To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s Pharmacist Home Loan and to get started with the preapproval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:49:33.4] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information on the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 332: Lan Ho Founder of Fat Miilk


On this episode, sponsored by Pyrls, Lan Ho, PharmD, Founder of Fat Miilk, shares her journey going from pharmacist to full-time entrepreneur featured on Gordon Ramsay’s Food Stars.

Episode Summary

Joining us this week on the YFP Podcast is Lan Ho, PharmD, Founder of Fat Miilk Vietnamese Coffee Company based in Chicago, Illinois. Tune in as we dive into her career journey in pharmacy before she shares why she started Fat Miilk, what she learned after appearing on Gordon Ramsay’s Food Stars, the most important thing she’s learned about herself since starting the business, and what lies ahead for Fat Miilk in the coming years. We discuss every step of Lan’s incredible journey to full-time entrepreneurship which began with an unexpected furlough from a retail pharmacy position in in 2020. We explore the rewards available when you are willing to take a risk, the biggest areas of growth she has experienced along the way, and why she is choosing a clicks-to-bricks approach to building her business.

About Today’s Guest

Lan Ho is a first-generation Vietnamese American who made a bold career change from pharmacist to beverage entrepreneur after being furloughed during the pandemic. She pivoted to pursue her dream and successfully launched Fat Miilk – Chicago’s first Vietnamese CPG coffee company. The brand saw instant global recognition when Bon Appetit listed Fat Miilk on their “Highly Recommend” list. Fat Miilk can be found in publications, including Eater, TimeOut, Thrillest, Roast Magazine, and more. Lan is recognized as a thought leader in consumer branding, customer experience, CPG, and the coffee industry. She was recently a finalist on Gordon Ramsay’s Food Stars on FOX network, where she represented her brand, leadership, and entrepreneurial story. Lan is currently expanding Fat Miilk’s reach through e-commerce and with Chicago’s first Vietnamese coffee bar showcasing a full cultural experience. She aims to inspire more minority representation in mass media, entrepreneurship, and executive roles.

Key Points From the Episode

  • Introducing Lan Ho, PharmD, Founder of Fat Miilk Vietnamese Coffee Company.
  • Her start in pharmacy fuelled by her parent’s goals for her education and career.
  • Why it is so important to embark on self-discovery work before committing to a career.
  • What motivated Lan to start Fat Miilk, the first Vietnamese CPG company in Chicago.
  • Benefits and challenges of entering a saturated industry. 
  • How Fat Miilk is merging two industries together.
  • What it means to protect your energy as an entrepreneur.
  • Lan’s experience on Gordon Ramsay’s Food Stars and what she learned about herself.
  • The rewards of taking up space and being willing to take a risk. 
  • Feedback Lan received from experts on the show. 
  • How the creative agency, Truffl, challenged every branding decision behind Fat Miilk. 
  • How Lan’s 2020 furlough led her to take the plunge into entrepreneurship.
  • The biggest areas of growth and learning while transitioning into entrepreneurship.
  • The clicks and bricks business approach that Lan is adopting for the product. 
  • Engaging customers to make a difference in climate change.

Episode Highlights

“If you hit on that unique proposition, you will stand out and you will win big.” — @iamlanho [0:10:17]

“In entrepreneurship, you have to protect your energy, especially in the beginning.” — @iamlanho [0:14:54]

“Do an audit about what you’re telling people and until you’re at a place to invite their opinions or their feedback into your life, keep it to yourself. Do yourself that favor.” — @iamlanho [0:17:09]

“When you transition from you know, going from a corporate structure into anything on your own, you are the corporate structure. A lot of people don’t know that.” — @iamlanho [0:36:02]

“[Having] their online presence but they also have this in-person on-the-ground brand experience [which is] so necessary for an emerging market.” — @iamlanho [0:40:07]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.8] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrick here, and thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I welcome pharmacist turned entrepreneur, Lan Ho, founder of Fat Miilk Vietnamese Coffee Company that’s based in Chicago, Illinois. We discuss her career journey in pharmacy, why she started Fat Miilk, what she learned after appearing in the finale of Gordon Ramsay’s Food Stars, the most important thing she’s learned about herself since starting the business, and what lies ahead for Fat Miilk in the coming years. 

Let’s hear a brief message from today’s sponsor, Pyrls, and then we’ll jump into my interview with Lan.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[0:00:38.3] JW: This is Justin Woods from the YFP Team with a quick message before the show. If you’re tired of relying on shared passwords or spending hundreds of dollars for drug information, we’ve got great news for you. Today’s podcast sponsor, Pyrls, is changing the game for pharmacy professionals. Pyrls offers top drug summaries, clinical teaching points, a drug interaction checker, calculators, and guideline reviews, all in one user-friendly resource.

They also recently added free weekly quizzes to test your Pharmacotherapy knowledge. Whether you’re on your web browser or accessing the mobile app, Pyrls has got you covered. Visit pyrls.com, that’s P-R-Y-L-S.com, to get access to more than 25 free Pharmacotherapy charts to get you started. Upgrade your drug information resources today with Pyrls, don’t miss out on this game-changing resource.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:33.3] TU: Lan, welcome to the show.

[0:01:34.9] LH: Hi, happy to be here.

[0:01:36.8] TU: Well, it’s an honor to have you. I ran across your entrepreneurial journey after a former student of mine reached out and said, “Hey, you’ve got to check out this pharmacist turned entrepreneur, she’s going to be on the final of Gordon Ramsay’s Food Stars.” Of course, I said, “Heck yeah, pharmacist, entrepreneur, I’ll be following that.”

[0:01:55.1] LH: Yes.

[0:01:55.2] TU: As I learn more about your story, I was fascinated with the work that you’ve been doing, why you’ve gotten into this area of work, and I wanted to introduce it to our community as well. And so, we’re going to spend most of our time on your entrepreneurial journey but let’s start with your career in pharmacy. What drew you into the profession, where did you go to school, and what area of practice did you find yourself in after graduation?

[0:02:18.5] LH: Yeah, absolutely. I’m happy to dive into all of that because it definitely is quite the story. My start in pharmacy, I will say, look, I probably did it for all the wrong reasons, right? And I say that because of multiple things. One, I come from a family, both my parents are Vietnam refugees, right? So, they are always pushing us to go for that really secure and stable career path, and the only thing that they really know is education is the kind of the only way to do it, right? 

And so, you know, me and my siblings were all in healthcare and I think when you’re at a young age and you don’t have a plan B and you didn’t grow up having role models and people to show you that there are other ways to kind of live life and go about your careers, the only thing that we really knew was to go to school and do something that’s secure and stable and get that degree, right?

So, if I had a backup plan, if I kind of knew what I wanted to do, I’m sure I could have you know, really posed a really good argument to my parents and be like, “This is what I want to do instead, I want to start my business, I want to go into the creative arts, I want to – you know, all these things” but I didn’t have a plan B, right? So, I was easily persuaded into doing something that my parents wanted me to do and at the time, that was pharmacy, you know? 

Pharmacy in Vietnam is considered like the gold standard for like one of the best career paths and just lifestyle and so, I really conform to that, made my dad really, really happy. The only pharmacist in the family and you know I was good at school. I’m good at learning, I’m good at teaching myself anything and I excelled in education and in higher education and went there, got my pharmacy degree, and had a great relationship with the district manager at Walgreens and I always thought I was going to do a fellowship but during my rotation…

[0:04:14.2] TU: Interesting.

[0:04:14.6] LH: Yeah. During my rotation with the district manager at Walgreens, we just vibed, it was all about relationships, right? And we just had a really, really good time together, really loved that he offered me a job after I graduated and so, that’s how I ended up in community pharmacy.

[0:04:32.3] TU: I love that story man, and I think it’s so important that we share, we all share our collective stories, right? You know, I think sometimes, going into pharmacy school, which could be true of medicine and I’m sure other health professions, you know sometimes, there’s the internal motivation, sometimes there’s external motivations, sometimes people have external motivations that you know over time, they fall in love with the professional work that they’re doing, other times, they don’t, and there is no one right path, right? 

And I think for everyone that’s on their own journey just as you are, just as I am, so important to do that self-discovery work and really, to find the path, you know, that’s most meaningful and I think as your story highlights so well, you know very rarely is one’s career path a straight line, right? I think sometimes in pharmacy school, I graduated in 2008 and I often felt the pressure and I can tell even graduates today, they feel this pressure that you know, there’s graduation, you take that first job or fellowship or residency, and that you know, from there on, it’s going to be one straight path.

And my career has looked like left turns, right turns, some straightaways, right? But – and there’s a lot more to go and I think as your journey, you know, that is the case as well and just a lot of wisdom there to share and I think as you continue on your entrepreneur journey, perhaps this is just one of many twists and turns that you’re going to take, you know, throughout your career. So, let’s talk about that entrepreneur or business journey. Give us the information on your company Fat Miilk. What is the product and offering and why did you start it?

[0:06:03.0] LH: Yeah. So, Fat Miilk is the first Vietnamese CPG and for people who don’t know, CPG stands for consumer packaged goods, we’re the first Vietnamese CPG coffee company in Chicago, right? And so, a lot of people don’t know is that you know, Vietnam is the number one producer of Robusta in the world. We’re a huge player in the coffee industry and what you’re seeing now is just a wave of first-generation Vietnamese entrepreneurs who are really showcasing that and really trying to put Vietnamese coffee on the map, right?

I think prior to like, the last couple of years, like one or two years ago, you could not walk into any major retailer, Walmart, Whole Foods, whatever, and find Vietnamese Robusta beans on the shelf. It just didn’t exist. And so, I’m really playing in an emerging category right now and we’ll say, prior to launching Fat Miilk, you know I’ve conceptualized this idea forever. You know, Vietnamese coffee in my household was a staple. 

You know, we grew up on that stuff and I just always thought, “You know, why do you have to go to a Vietnamese restaurant? Like a pho restaurant or a bánh mì restaurant to really get Vietnamese coffee?” and sometimes you don’t even know if it’s really Vietnamese coffee, right? It’s just – it’s just the way that it’s you know, presented and so, I saw this opportunity, not just to use Vietnamese coffee as the medium to what I want to present out there but also, like, if you look at what I’ve built with Fat Miilk, you know, you see so much of the story there.

So much of like, the story of the people behind the bean and just the culture, right? And that’s really what I enjoy. I really enjoy creative writing, creative strategy, and I love connecting with the consumer and that’s where I thrive. So, long story short, Fat Miilk is a coffee company, we sell whole-bean coffee. I import it directly from Vietnam and we have some really other exciting product lines that we are pushing forward as well but on top of that, we’re building out our first Chicago flagship storefront at the same time.

[0:08:07.6] TU: Ooh, that’s awesome.

[0:08:09.1] LH: Yeah, a lot going on.

[0:08:10.9] TU: And we’re going to talk about that as we head towards the end kind of, what is the next stage, where do you see the future and I think that’s obviously an important part of that and I hope our listeners will go check out what you’re doing. I’ll link to your website, fatmiilk.com. That has two “I’s” Just so people know as they’re looking that up. Please grab some coffee, you know, you’ve got some other product on there as well.

My wife and I have been working through a five-pound bag over the last few weeks, it’s delicious and I would just highly encourage you know, our listeners to check it out, and I will say, Lan, one of the things that really stood out to me is I did some background research on what you’re building is the strength that you have in storytelling and branding and marketing. You mentioned that creative pursuit, that is obvious in the work that you’re doing. So – 

[0:08:52.5] LH: I appreciate that.

[0:08:52.9] TU: You know, lean into that strength. I know you are but it’s really an incredible one to watch. Now, I’ve got some questions. You know, coffee, beverage, it’s a big industry, right? And for those that watch Shark Tank, you know that the Sharks are quick to object to beverage companies knowing that this is a crowded space. So, I think you answered this in part when you talked about the Vietnamese heritage of this product. But tell us more about what makes this product unique, especially as you think about coffee and beverage being such a big industry.

[0:09:22.7] LH: Yeah. You know, I think when people see such a big industry, they get a little intimidated by it, right? And there’s some major players in the coffee industry but I almost see it as an opportunity, right? Like, I’m not reinventing the wheel here, I’m playing in an industry that already has demand and it’s actually pandemic-proof. Like, if you look at coffee industry, I think it drastically increased during the pandemic, right? 

And so, this is something that people see as a daily necessity, it’s a commodity. I mean, you know, and if you’re able to enter a market that already is going to stay you know, and create something that’s niche but also, unique you can really, really stand out, right? So, when I look at really saturated markets, even in pharmacy, it’s community pharmacies or independent pharmacies, there’s always a way. 

There’s always a way and if you hit on that unique proposition, you will stand out and you will win big, okay? And so, I think we’re playing within the coffee industry at large, which is like a 130-billion-dollar worldwide industry by the way but the Vietnamese coffee category is new in the US, right? Obviously, you know, overseas and in Vietnam and Australia and a lot of the other neighboring countries, Vietnamese coffee is very known and popular. 

But here in the US, I have an opportunity to really be a first mover and I think that if done right and you do it with intentionality, you do it with heart and you do it with community, that to me, you can create a legacy brand out of that and that’s what I intend to do.

[0:11:05.0] TU: Yeah, I love that, right? Because I think that you know, in this example exists in pharmacy, you’re spot on. You know, we tend to speak in generalities, right? You know, independent pharmacy is dead, community pharmacy is changing or evolving but there’s niche markets, right? And you talked about, in your space, you know, obviously, there’s a niche. You know, what’s your differential advantage, what are you bringing that’s different?

Obviously, you know, you are in what you’re building and I think that’s so important, you know, that we kind of get away from some of those generalities, especially speaking about business, and really trying to figure out, “Okay, what’s the problem that we’re trying to solve, what’s the opportunity and how can I bring something that’s different or new or unique or serves a niche that may be otherwise hasn’t been served as it relates to this product?”

[0:11:46.4] LH: Absolutely. I think that’s just business in general, right? Like, you can’t go into a market and just do something that everybody else is doing, right? That’s not good business. You have to look at the market and see what you can bring to the table and what makes you unique and I will say with Fat Miilk when I look at – I will say, right now, being a Vietnamese coffee company is and can be enough, right? Because we are so new to the market. 

But I will say, that’s not what I – that’s not the angle that I’m taking. What I bring with Fat Miilk is a lifestyle, you know? And so, when you look at it, and we’re launching our new website actually on November 15th in this whole Fat Miilk 2.0 situation is, I really been able to capture the last, first, you know, two years of Fat Miilk, analyze what was working and what wasn’t working, and really determine who we are and who we’re not and got down to the roots and realized we need to exist for more reasons than to just make Vietnamese coffee accessible.

And so, when you look at Fat Miilk and you know, our intention to expand, what really makes us different is a whole lifestyle approach to Vietnamese coffee but we’re also merging two industries together. There’s this streetwear, very hype culture that exists in you know, a lot of sneaker and streetwear brands into a food and beverage company, you know? And so, at the core of all of that is this hustle mentality with a lot of humility, right? And that’s how I grew up. 

You know, both of my parents coming here and that’s something that I always wanted to honor, like, I don’t want to be this incredibly luxury brand but I’m going to be something that’s relatable to the times, right? And at the end of the day, me going from pharmacy to this was something that was so intentional about taking a bet on yourself, right? Which then everyone says, and really doing it with humility and doing it with intentionality, with value at its core.

[0:13:42.5] TU: Yeah, I think that’s really interesting, Lan because I think that concept, you know, the hustle mentality, the taking a bet on yourself, I think a lot of pharmacists struggle with that, you know? And part of that goes to – you know, we often talk about it in the show. The golden handcuffs of you got a doctorate degree, you got a six-figure income, you got USD 200,000 of student loans.

[0:14:00.1] LH: Yeah, yeah. 

[0:14:01.0] TU: It’s hard to take that risk, it’s hard to you know, have that hustle mentality when obviously, you’re making that kind of income and I think you know, as you alluded to, that goes back to in part, your upbringing and some of that entrepreneurial experience that you obviously have, and one of the things I want to dive into a little bit deeper, and you mentioned at the top of this episode was some of the family impact on your journey, not only the pharmacy but obviously on entrepreneurship as well and you’ve talked about publicly on Gordon Ramsay’s Food Stars. 

I’ve also seen it referenced in other articles that have featured your story that you didn’t share your business pursuits with your family until after you have launched the business for some time. One article I read said, “Long story short, I started an entire company, pretending to be a full-time pharmacist and later came clean on national television while competing for Gordon Ramsay’s partnership.” Tell us more about that.

[0:14:52.3] LH: Yes. Look, in entrepreneurship, I say this over and over and over again, you have to protect your energy, right? And especially in the beginning. Look, Vietnamese coffee, I went from being a pharmacist to you know, dealing lattes and so for my parents, you know, especially my dad, he didn’t understand that and for me, I was like, “I don’t think you need to understand it right now, you know?”

Like, I think when a lot of people have their opinions and tell you, you know, “Oh, I like that idea, I don’t like that idea, why are you doing this?” It’s exhausting and it’s taxing too. Like just the emotional capacity that you have and the mental capacity, and when you’re starting a business, you need your best self, you know? And there are just so many moments where I would kind of try to bring it up, you know?

And kind of talk about Fat Miilk and how like coffee, there’s this huge opportunity in Vietnamese coffee in the US, blah-blah-blah, like all this stuff and I was just presented with so much resistance, you know? And that to me was something that was so evident, that as I’m building Fat Miilk, I have to build it to a stage where there is no turning back, you know? And so, I was going to do it no matter what because I mean, look, we don’t have to go into it but I was a pretty miserable person when I was a pharmacist.

And I just knew that this was not the career choice for me and that I was going to do something creatively and I was going to do it without my parents and that was a big secret that I kept to myself and a lot of it was for me, more than anything because if I knew I invited that kind of energy into just the building stage of Fat Miilk, I would have had to not only find the strength to keep going but find the strength to resist that feedback, right? 

Like, that negative energy that I just did not need in my life while I was trying to make something happen and it all comes from a good place. I don’t – you know, the people who tell you, who are going to challenge you the most are the people that probably love you the most, right? So, there’s no ill feelings there. It’s just, for me, it was so important, and I always encourage people, watch – do an audit about what you’re telling people and until you’re at a place to invite their opinions or their feedback into your life, keep it to yourself. Do yourself that favor.

[0:17:22.1] TU: Yeah, you have to protect your energy. I love that. Such words of wisdom, you know, that you shared there and so important. I got that vibe, right? When I watched the show and I followed some of your journey, read some articles, I got the vibe that it was coming from a place of love and you know, I think that for the entrepreneurs that are listening, like, they know that well around the need to protect their energy. 

It’s so important and I think you also shared very well that also, you know, when you think about who is around you and some of the energy that you’re surrounding yourself with and you know, there’s a place to be challenged, certainly but especially early in that journey, you know, the momentum that you’re sustaining. You talked about, you know, the hustle mentality, the energy that you’re going to need to sustain that to see through the vision and the idea that you have, so important, especially early on in the journey.

Let’s talk about your experience on Gordon Ramsay’s Food Stars. What an incredible opportunity, and for those that are listening that are not familiar with the show, can you just give us a quick, general premise of what that show is all about?

[0:18:22.0] LH: Yes. So, Gordon Ramsay’s food stars, it is his brand new show, season one. It’s on FOX but essentially, he invited 15 of the most promising food and beverage entrepreneurs to compete for USD 250,000 of his angel investment, yeah.

[0:18:41.2] TU: And the 15, one thing I was wondering and maybe this was mentioned early in the show and I missed it but how did you get selected as one of those 15, was there an audition process or what did that look like?

[0:18:53.3] LH: So, me, personally they reached out to me on Instagram.

[0:18:56.2] TU: Oh, cool.

[0:18:56.8] LH: So, I got recruited to be on the show and there’s a casting director who reached out and said, “Hey, let me know if you’d be interested in this show. I think you’ll be a good fit.” And so, I – you know, for me, I thought it was fake news from the beginning. I like literally went to Gordon Ramsay’s Instagram and saw that he was promoting the show as well. So, that’s when I knew it was legit.

So, there is – you know, there was an application, you know, kind of on the Internet that you could go and apply. I think only one person out of the entire cast actually applied and got the position – or you know, got on the show. Everyone else was recruited.

[0:19:34.1] TU: Okay, that was cool. I was wondering about the process to get there and we’re not going to spill all of what happened, we’re going to make people go watch it if they haven’t watched it. We’ll just say that you were in the final three, we’ll leave it at that. One of the things I’m really curious about is you know, what you see on TV and obviously the thing that you experienced, I know those are two very, very different things.

And you know I’m curious, as you reflect back on that experience, what are one or two things that really stand out to you? Of things that you look back and say, “Wow, because of that experience, I learned this about myself.” What really were some of the takeaways that you had from that show?

[0:20:10.6] LH: Yeah. One of the biggest things that people tell me that I – maybe I didn’t know about me, I mean, I really didn’t know this about myself was how poised I am, right? That is probably – so, I learned a lot about myself based on how other people perceive me and that was like, probably the number one feedback when people would DM me, comment on my Instagram, Facebook, send me messages, emails, everything, they were just like, “We’re such a big fan of you, we felt like you, you know, held it together, you’re very professional, very poised.”

And then, you’re just like, “Wow, I didn’t know that I actually am like that” you know? So, you start to kind of think like, “You know, this is how I present myself and unknowingly, how people see in business, right?” So, that was kind of something that I learned about myself just being on TV and I think, another thing is that you have to take risks, right? I remember when they reached out to me, I had no intention on being on television, and I may have unlocked some other opportunities because of that.

But I remember telling myself, “Look, if you’re going to do this Fat Miilk thing and you’re going to build this to be what, you know, a global company or whatever, the potential you think it is, you have to go out there and put it all on the line.” You have to take that risk, right? And I remember telling myself that this is what it takes when you want to turn that big corner in your career, your life, whatever it is that you’re doing, you got to go out swinging and you have to be able to step up to it when that opportunity comes along and that was not only evident in some of the challenges on the show where I really took up space, right?

[0:21:53.0] TU: Yes.

[0:21:54.3] LH: This was going on the show in it of itself once an example of that and I think sometimes, a lot of entrepreneurs probably – maybe they reach out to so many people seeing if, “Hey, do you want to go on the show, do you want to do this?” And a lot of people are like, “Oh no, me on television? No.” You know?

And so, a lot of people, I think a lot of businesses probably turned that opportunity down, you know? And I think for me, the biggest thing was it does pay off when you not only stay prepared but you are prepared and you’re willing to flex that preparation, you know? Because I had one month to leave my life in Chicago and go to LA to film this thing and that’s exactly what happened and made it all the way to the finale like you said. So, I mean, you know it paid off.

[0:22:41.7] TU: Yeah, and I think just saying yes to that opportunity, you know, I think sometimes we see those opportunities, we’re like, “Oh, it would be so nice, right? If I had that kind of break.” But I think you’re point is a really good one. You have to have a willingness to say yes, you entered into an unknown territory. I’m sure there are fears and anxieties, you know, surrounding that, and just what you shared in the wisdom of taking up space, right? 

I think a lot of entrepreneurs struggle with that, I would say, pharmacists, entrepreneurs, you would struggle more, which is that concept of taking up space not only by being on the show but then, within, you know, the show and the interactions, making sure that you’re taking up the space that you need as well to grow and hopefully, you know, there’s a promotion, there’s other opportunities.

But what I’m also hearing from you which I love is the personal growth that happened to the experience because I firmly believe that often, the ceiling, how high, how far a business can go is directly correlated to the mindset of the leader of that organization, which is you, the founder, and the CEO, and what I’m hearing is this vast expansion of the mindset of what you believe is possible and where you can take this brand and where you could take this business, so I love that. 

I recall Lan, one of the experts and I can’t remember his name, I think he was from maybe Albertsons, Wholefoods, you can point me back in the right direction that I would say he was somewhat critical of the branding and the disconnect that he was seeing in terms of the coffee and the product being in a carton, maybe somewhat around the naming as well. 

So, refresh us on what happened there, and then I’m just curious as you reflect back on that, how did you take that feedback in the moment, and then what have you done or what have you processed since that feedback as well? 

[0:24:25.4] LH: Yeah, absolutely. So, in the finale, you know Gordon Ramsay brought on two experts, both of them very well-versed in retail distribution and CPG, right? And so, one of the biggest feedback that I got was the confusion of our coffee beans being in a milk carton and the name of the company being Fat Miilk. I will say this is nothing I don’t already know, right? In the case that I launched the company in 2020 and we did so many pop-ups. 

I mean, we did pop-ups all over Chicago. I mean, anywhere and everywhere, you know, gyms, Chinese restaurants, parks, everywhere. I mean, and we got all of that feedback, right? And people would say the same things you know? And I definitely took all of that into consideration and a lot of people don’t know that when I was filming for the show, I was already looking to address those concerns and I was also negotiating the lease for our first storefront, right? 

So, I was doing all of that because we all are there and we all have businesses, that’s the whole premise of the show is that we’re all entrepreneurs. We’re all still working on our business, we still have to keep the business afloat while we’re filming for this show in full anxiety mode. I mean, it was like a whole flex from mental, emotional, everything, physical, and I will say you know, those were – it was definitely confirming when he gave me that feedback that this was definitely something that we needed to address. 

And so when I came back from the show, you know I found my dream creative agency who was going to help me rebrand the entire business, right? And I am someone that has incredible intentionality maybe to a detriment sometimes, you know? I want to understand every decision we make with intention, like if someone tells me, “Oh, these are our brand colors” I want to know why.

[0:26:19.5] TU: Yep. 

[0:26:19.8] LH: You know, like it has to have a reason, it has to have some kind of intention as to why you made that decision and it can’t just be because you like it. In my opinion, you’re missing out in a huge opportunity, right? And so a lot of people don’t know that you know, I named the company Fat Miilk because when people think of Vietnamese coffee, the most popular way to consume Vietnamese coffee is with a little bit of sweetened condensed milk, right? 

And so when people say, “Oh, have you had Vietnamese coffee before?” they’re like, “Oh, yeah. I don’t like it, it’s too sweet” or it’s like, “Oh yeah, I do love it. It’s sweet and this and this and that” and I’m like that’s just one version to enjoy Vietnamese coffee but Vietnamese coffee is just beans from Vietnam, right? And it is a very bold nutty chocolatey two times the caffeine content type of bean that when you add a little bit of sweetened condensed milk to it, it just is the perfect balance. 

So, when I named the company Fat Miilk, not only do we intend to do some exciting things with condensed milk but also I get to educate people like, “Look, the reason why it’s called Fat Miilk is because you probably think sweetened condensed milk equates to Vietnamese coffee, right? But let me tell you why it’s not” and so I need to educate consumers and tell a broader story as to why Vietnamese coffee is what it is. 

And so when I came back from the show and hired on Truffl, they’re an amazing creative agency out in LA, I had them challenge me on every single decision I have made up into that point, right? And I said, “Challenge me, why did I name it Fat Miilk? Why is the logo a water buffalo? Why the colors, why the milk carton, why this, why that?” And if I didn’t have a good answer for that now we needed to come up with the solution, you know? 

And so yeah, and so you know, we’re about to launch our Fat Miilk 2.0 is what I call it because I had a huge opportunity and a huge blessing to kind of redirect this whole brand in a way where now it’s viable to scale. It’s really good logistically, you know when it comes to complexity. You know just the packaging itself, it’s ready to grow, and just use all of that feedback over the last couple of years now put the company in a position to really play in the category. 

[0:28:37.8] TU: Yeah, and what I love about that, my takeaway there is your openness and receptiveness to be challenged, right? I think so often especially as a founder, right? It’s your baby, it’s your product and there’s moments where we have to set ego aside, right? And acknowledge and recognize like, “Hey, we’ve done an awesome job of getting the product to this point. I started this literally from an idea to a product that people are willing to pay for.” 

That is an amazing accomplishment, an amazing accomplishment, and then to say, “Okay, next level” you talked about you know, hiring an agency. You obviously have input and feedback and you know, it sounds like there is some consumer research going on there, probably formal and informal, and then to go work with an agency and say, “Hey, challenge me, challenge me on everything that I’ve done” and not in a egotistical, “I’m going to tell you why.” 

But in a, “I’m going to make sure that this is the best product that it can be and if there is a way that we can make this better I’m open, I’m receptive to that” and that is beautiful and that is hard to do, very hard to do. 

[0:29:40.9] LH: It is. It is and let me tell you, when I made the decision everyone was against me. My fractional CFO was against me, my team was totally against it. They were just like, “No Lan, we love it, we love the water buffalo, we love the carton, and look, it was a success in the sense that it got the attention of Gordon Ramsay.” You know, if you watch the finale, our old brand is plastered all over our pop-up and you know, that episode. 

And so like, it is beautiful but when you think about it from a business perspective, it didn’t put us in a position to really play, right? It was complicated, it was confusing, it was so many things, and so I will say you know, everyone was pushing against me to keep it the way that things were and I had to challenge everyone and be like, “Look, I’m making this decision. We need to address these issues because if we expand and we’re in Iowa and Nebraska, are we going to be able to it on the show and have and communicate exactly who we are as a brand and without us being there?” 

“If I can’t say that with our current brand though, we need to make some changes” and there were days, there were days, let me tell you, where I was genuinely depressed. Like I remember when we made the decision to nix our logo, which is a water buffalo, the national animal of Vietnam but it has no relevance to coffee because coffee is not grown in the water, by the way, that was a really dark day for me. 

Because I was like, “What have I been doing this whole time?” Like you know, I feel like I’ve built this brand, people really love it, they resonate with the water buffalo, it kind of looks like the Chicago Bulls, you know with the [inaudible 0:31:24.0] It was this whole thing and people were genuinely sad about it and I was sad about it and I had to stick to my gut and be like, “We’re letting it go.” 

[0:31:33.6] TU: Yeah, yeah. 

[0:31:34.1] LH: It’s not going to be our logo anymore, you know? And so that was really hard for me during the rebrand but I stand by what it looks like now and I know it can go the distance. 

[0:31:44.3] TU: Well, and that’s the key, go the distance, right? I mean, I think what you’re talking about there the vision, you know I think about me as a consumer in Columbus, Ohio going to the coffee shelf like that’s what you’re talking about next level, right? 

[0:31:54.5] LH: Yes. 

[0:31:54.9] TU: You are not talking about your inner circle or people that are you know, attached to the brand and from Jump Street and there’s risk in any one of those decisions obviously but you know, I think that you’re talking about, “Hey, how do I take this to the next level?” and the bigger vision that you can see, so much there to takeaway as you shared that. 

[0:32:14.2] LH: Yes. 

[0:32:15.0] TU: Let me go – I want to share with our listeners and talk about the timeline of what you’ve built because it’s really incredible in a short period of time. 

[0:32:22.1] LH: Thank you. 

[0:32:23.0] TU: So, April 2019, you incorporated, you got the trademark in July 2020, you are furloughed from your pharmacy job. September 2020, just two months after that furlough, you launched Fat Miilk as a brand, December 2020 you secured wholesale partnerships. April 2022, season one of Ramsay, Gordon Ramsay’s food show starts. August 2022, lease signed for the storefront, we’ll talk about that here in a moment. August 2023, you launched Kickstart. 

I mean, we’re talking about a very brief period of time where a lot was happening and if I am following correctly, you were furloughed from your pharmacy job and that really accelerated the growth of your business but the idea had been around prior to that furlough. Am I following that correctly? 

[0:33:06.1] LH: One hundred percent. 

[0:33:07.0] TU: Okay. 

[0:33:07.6] LH: Yes. 

[0:33:08.3] TU: Awesome and you – 

[0:33:08.9] LH: That some people will say – just to quickly plug in there, people say, “How did you launch this company in two months?” It’s like I’ve been conceptualizing, which is the longest part by the way, when you’re thinking about how you’re going to do it, what it’s going to look like, and execute. I’ve been doing that for years, you know? And so when it came to the opportunity to actually put it in motion, that’s how we were able to launch in two months. 

Business, you know what I mean but like if I just thought about this in two months and launched it, I mean, that is – I just want to make that clear that you know, this was something that was brewing for a while. 

[0:33:41.2] TU: Do you think you would have pursued this regardless if the furlough happened? Would it have just been a delayed timeline? I’m curious to hear your reflection back on how much of the furlough was an accelerator or an initiator or you know, if you would have grown in that role or maybe pursued a fellowship industry pathway. Like is there a place where this idea maybe never sees the light of day or it would have just been maybe a little bit more down the road? 

[0:34:08.9] LH: Yeah, Fat Miilk was 100% going to happen. Yes, so 100%. I will say that furlough was the biggest blessing in my life because I told myself, “You know, once I get to this point I’m going to quit and go all in on Fat Miilk” and then that timeline started to get pushed back. “Once I get here, you know? I’m going to do that” and so that furlough was just like I took that as the sign, the universe telling me it is time to go, you know? 

And so, I think when I got furloughed I didn’t have a choice. It was I was furloughed, you know I had no choice but to make my dream come true as opposed to like go and look for another pharmacy job, you know? So that was a big sign for me and I ran with it. I saw that opportunity and I’m like, “This is it. This is the world telling me you need to go and do this” and so when they asked me to come back two months later I said, “No, I already launched it.” I already launched the company, so I’m just going to focus on this now, yeah. 

[0:35:08.1] TU: Lan, I’m curious as you think about all the different aspects involved in starting and growing a business, running a business, right? Marketing, sales, building a team, culture of the company, finances, distribution, supply chain management, when you think about all of the different pieces that you’ve been involved, what has been the area that’s had the biggest learning curve and growth for you over the past few years? 

[0:35:32.8] LH: Yeah, it’s a good question because I think everything has been a learning curve. I will say, just to transition from going from a very regulated structure and lifestyle with not only being a student in higher education for 10 years but then going into pharmacy to then going into entrepreneurship, that has always and still is a very big challenge in my life, right? I think when you transition from you know, going from a corporate structure into anything on your own, you are the corporate structure and a lot of people don’t know that, you know? 

They’re just like, “Wait, what am I supposed to do, you know?” Like you’ve been told, you know, I’ve been told exactly how my seasons look. You know, you have your fall semester, you have your spring semester, you have summer break, you know? And then from there, when you go to work, you have your schedule, you have your shifts, you have your you know, things that you know you can and cannot do, especially a very regulated industry like pharmacy. 

There is no creative flexes in there and so when I went from my entire life of living in structure to then going on and starting my own business, I had to wake up every day and sometimes I didn’t know what to do. It’s like, “Wait, you have so many things you need to do” and you have so many things you need to learn and you don’t actually know where you put your time and energy into what is going to convert for you the most. 

So, it’s so much trial and error in just learning, learning how to prioritize your days and sometimes, you don’t even move the needle an inch, right? Because you’re just like, “Okay, well, I guess I realize you know focusing on this email newsletter or what” you know, trying to cold call a bunch of other brands, it didn’t go anywhere but you have to keep trying and see and I think even until this moment, you know I still have to segment and learn that structure in my day that I thrived in corporate culture to then apply that to my own life. 

And being able to deliver and execute for my team and for the future and grow Fat Miilk and like you said earlier, you are your biggest asset to your company, you know? Like truly how you operate and how you structure your days and if you feel good about that day, you feel productive about how you structured that day, all of that is such a big influence in how your company ends up doing, right? 

And so, I always say like you, the only person that’s getting in the way is me, you know? I feel like I can teach it to myself, I can teach myself supply chain and customs and importing beans and all of these things but if I am not feeling it that day, that ultimately is my business is going to take a hit, you know? It’s like now you have to learn discipline to a T and that is the hardest thing. 

[0:38:24.6] TU: Yeah and I think to give yourself some grace like you know, you gave the example of like you can spend a day making cold calls or working on the newsletter and you’re like, “Hey, I thought that was going to be a high impact priority day where me as the founder and the CEO can move the needle most” and sometimes it’s not or you say, “Okay, that work, that didn’t work. Now, I’m going to bob, now I’m going to shift.” 

But giving yourself some grace in those moments of, “Yeah, maybe I didn’t tangibly move forward the business today but I learned something and I learned that hey, this doesn’t work or I’ve got to iterate” and you know I think sometimes, you know the wins need to be reveled in and enjoyed and celebrated but also there are those days, there are the seasons, there are the weeks where you’re grinding or you’re like, “I don’t even know where to start on the list of things to be done.” 

And like those moments, those seasons, those days are going to happen. They’re just going to happen and you know I think to recognize them and obviously, you’re speaking from experience there, it’s so important to give yourself grace in that season. 

[0:39:20.0] LH: Yes, that’s real. It’s real. 

[0:39:22.9] TU: As you think about the future of Fat Miilk, you’ve mentioned Fat Miilk 2.0 a couple of times, you mentioned at least once or twice getting ready to open a storefront. Tell us about what’s next for Fat Miilk in this 2.0 iteration and where you see the brand going here over the next couple of years. 

[0:39:39.8] LH: Yeah, absolutely. You know, we’re such at a pivotal time in the company right now in the sense that we had an opportunity to really restart the brand and do it with intention. A lot of brands don’t get to do that and not only that but we just had raising credibility from the Gordon Ramsay show, right? And so I’m really adopting this clicks and bricks business model. You know, if you look at businesses like Warby Parker and Outlaw, you know you have – they have their online presence but they also have this in-person on-the-ground brand experience, right? 

And I think that is so necessary for an emerging market and so, you’ll be seeing a lot of us double downing on our digital footprint but also expanding our community outreach, right? Through different storefronts throughout Chicago and expanding to major cities but also what’s really important to me is approaching Fat Miilk with the utmost respect for the farmers and the coffee industry, right? 

And if – you know, I don’t want to bore people with the history here but you know, just due to climate change, the Robusta bean is actually going to be the biggest shift in consumer just brands in general when it comes to coffee and what is going to be readily available, right? And so we have an opportunity to really be a huge player in the impact of climate change and I’m really looking into upcycling every single layer of the coffee bean itself because a lot of people don’t know what’s a cherry. 

So, there is a fruit around it and the seed in the middle is the actual coffee bean and so I’m working with farmers right now to see how we can upcycle parts of the pulp and the skin of the cherry to use in some of our other verticals and that’s been really exciting for me and maybe that’s the compounding part of pharmacy that I really enjoy and being able to take something and make something new out of it. 

So, that’s kind of the approach for Fat Miilk moving forward is having consumer experience in multiple channels but also doing something with the coffee cherry itself and having an impact on just the industry. 

[0:41:55.0] TU: And I think that connects so well to your strength that you talked about, you know, towards the beginning of the episode, which is your strength around the branding, the marketing, the creative side, the storytelling, right? Bringing the cup of coffee to individuals as an experience and I think we’ve come a long way as a consumer but I would argue we have more to go and you are obviously tapping into that. 

That you know, I think people, some people maybe just want a cup of coffee every morning they want to think about it but I think there is a big market of people that are very interested in where is this bean coming from and what is you know, the story of the farm, what is the story of the roaster and you know, how can this really come to be an experience and not just something that’s a functional part of the day that I don’t really think a whole lot about, right? 

[0:42:38.2] LH: Yeah, I absolutely agree, and I think a small part of people, I will say a minority group of people really, really geek out about that stuff but I think there is an opportunity for you know, mass appeal for people to care about that stuff. 

[0:42:52.8] TU: I agree. 

[0:42:53.2] LH: You have to do it, you have to do it with lifestyle. You have to do it where it’s a party and not a protest, right? Because climate change can very easily go into this protest mode, right? Where we’re not doing things right, we’re contributing to it like you know? And kind of playing this blame game but if you can create a brand where people just really resonate with you know, the packaging and what you’re doing.

The vibes you’re giving off, they naturally are inclined to care more about why you exist, and that is the approach that I am taking. I think a lot of brands go so far right or one way or the other about you know, going deep into climate change, going top of really, really using these big words and things that people get really bored about when it comes to the impact of the pulp and you know, just the coffee production and how that can impact just the industry and the you know, the world. 

And so, I think the best people to do it are brands who have a way to engage customers without them actually even knowing that they’re engaged. 

[0:43:58.1] TU: That is fantastic and this has been a real treat. I am so grateful for you coming on the show and sharing your journey and I’m really excited to follow what’s ahead. I have a feeling you’re just getting warmed up here. So, where is the best place that our listeners can go to follow your journey and learn more about what you’re building? 

[0:44:15.1] LH: Yeah, absolutely. We’re pretty active on social media. So, it’s you know Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, all of that is @fatmiilk with two Is, so Fat Miilk. The best place to just get our coffee, experience the brand, we’ll always be fatmiilk.com, and then for people who are in Chicago or visiting Chicago, we are building up our Chicago flagship storefront and that is in uptown at the corner of Broadway and Arga. 

[0:44:42.4] TU: Awesome. Well, thank you so much again and when you decide to expand into Columbus, Ohio you have to let me know, Lan. 

[0:44:48.7] LH: Absolutely. 

[0:44:49.5] TU: Great market here as well but in all seriousness, thank you so much for coming on the show. 

[0:44:53.6] LH: Yes, I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. 

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:44:56.1] JW: Hey, this is Justin again from the YFP Team. Thanks for tuning in to today’s podcast. If you’re a pharmacy professional, you know how crucial it is to have access to reliable drug information. That’s why we’re excited to tell you about Pyrls, today’s podcast sponsor. Gone are the days spending hundreds of dollars for access to drug information. Pyrls offers top drug summaries, clinical teaching points, a drug interaction checker, calculators, and guideline reviews, all in one user-friendly resource.

Whether you prefer accessing information through your web browser, Chrome extension, or mobile app, Pyrls has got you covered. Plus, for a limited time, you can visit pyrls.com to get access to more than 25 free Pharmacotherapy charts to get you started. Upgrade your drug information resources today with Pyrls, visit pyrls.com, that’s P-Y-R-L-S.com, to learn more. Thanks again for listening. 

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:45:50.3] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information on the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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