personal finance

YFP 340: YFP Podcast Replay – How to Teach Your Kids About Money and Investing

Posted on by YFP Media

Dylin Redling and Allison Tom discuss their journey to FIRE and their book for kids on investing and personal finance, sharing practical advice and tips.

Episode Summary

On this episode Tim Ulbrich welcomes Dylin Redling and Allison Tom, creators of Retireby45.com and authors of two books, Start Your F.I.R.E. (Financial Independence Retire Early): A Modern Guide to Early Retirement and Investing for Kids: How to Save, Invest and Grow Money. Dylin and Allison achieved ‘financial independence retire early’ status in 2015 when they were in their early 40’s. Have you ever thought to yourself, I wish I had learned more about the topic of personal finance sooner? If so, that’s exactly what today’s show is all about as Tim interviews Dylin and Allison about their work with their book, Investing for Kids. They discuss practical advice and meaningful activities to help with teaching kids about money and investing.

About Today’s Guests

Dylin Redling and Allison Tom are a married couple living in Oakland, California. After working for 17 years in the tech industry in San Francisco, they left the workforce in January 2015 and never went back.

They own and operate the website RetireBy45.com, which provides inspiration, tips, and resources for achieving FIRE (Financial Independence / Retiring Early) and making the most of the FIRE lifestyle. In 2020, they wrote and published two books: “Start Your FIRE: A Modern Guide to Early Retirement” and the best-selling “Investing for Kids.”

They love food, fitness, and travel. Their goal of “60 by 60” is to visit 60 countries by the age of 60.

Key Points from the Episode

Learn about Dylin and Allison’s book for kids ages 8-12 called, “Investing for Kids: How to Save, Invest, and Grow Money”
Dylin and Allison’s first book was “Start Your FIRE: A Modern Guide to Early Retirement”
Their book for kids is easy to understand with lots of activities and lead by the colorful characters called the Dollar Duo: Mr. Finance and Investing Woman
Career paths and choices led Allison and Dylin to live in the Bay Area of California
When Dylin had pneumonia and was in the ICU for many days, the couple began to ask themselves, “Do we want to work for 25 more year?”
Dylin’s pneumonia experience along with changes in their careers led them to pursue with FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early) journey
Because they are passionate about learning about personal finance, they felt inspired to reach a younger audience
Dylin and Allison believe it is important to have a healthy respect for money, even in the age of digital currency
They hope their book can be read with an adult so that it can lead to good conversations about personal finance
Good finances early on can put you in a good position to be in control of future opportunities

Episode Highlights

“So there are plenty of ways to cut costs in your life that are relatively painless, that we’ve talked about all the time, so there are just different ways to do it to achieve FIRE. And some people don’t even choose to do the early retiring like my father is the example. So retirement is really more of the optional part. We’re not saying you have to retire, you have to leave your job and just sit around drinking mojitos all day long, although it’s certainly not a bad lifestyle. But you know, the retiring part is up to the individual. “ – Allison Tom

“So we love our FIRE lifestyle and the fact that we left our W2 jobs in our 40s, but we know it’s not for everybody. But what we do also know is that the concepts of Financial Independence are good for anybody, no matter when you might want to retire. And those concepts are really about doing the right thing with your money. So it starts with saving, it starts with being somewhat frugal — and when we say frugal, we don’t mean living a spartan lifestyle. We just mean not going crazy with money with spending on things that you don’t want or that you don’t need or you feel like you have to keep up with the Joneses and get a brand new SUV every two years.” – Dylin Redling

“I got to college, and then I had my first credit card that I just — oof. It was bad. I did not understand the concept of paying credit cards and interest rates and late fees and minimum payments. And so, you know, I got in trouble with credit cards after I graduated. And it wasn’t until after that that I thought, oh, I really need to learn more about what’s going on here. And so I started watching some shows on PBS, but by then, you know, I’m in my early 20s at that point. My learning took a lot longer for the habits to become engrained in me. So you know, I really do think that if kids could see this stuff earlier, it would be so much more impactful.” –Allison Tom

“That’s the beauty of the time being yours is you can make it whatever you want to do. We also do a lot more work with our community that we never had time to do when we were working. So we’re a lot more invested in our neighborhood, and we spend more time working with businesses in our neighborhood to bring in more business. So having that luxury of time means you can go explore whatever interests pop up.” – Allison Tom

“And so as the educators come up with their curriculum, I think honestly, a lot of adults are really intimidated by personal finance. And so it’s something that seems easy enough for them to cut out of the education system as an elective because well, if they don’t understand it, then kids aren’t going to understand it. And if they’re intimidated by it, then kids are definitely going to not understand it and be intimidated by it, so let’s not even talk about it, which actually is one of the reasons why we thought it was important to write the book.” – Allison Tom

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

(INTRO)

Tim Ulbrich: Dylin and Allison, welcome to the show.

Allison Tom: Thanks for having us.

Dylin Redling: Thank you very much. Great to be here.

Tim Ulbrich: I’ve very much been looking forward to this interview to talk more about your story achieving financial independence and early retirement and more specifically, the work that the two of you did in writing “Investing for Kids: How to Save, Invest, and Grow Money.” And Dylin, let’s start with you only because we share an Ohio State connection since you’re an alum so go Bucks. Why write a book specifically designed for kids about investing? What was the motivation behind your work?

Dylin Redling: Yeah, well, first of all, go Buckeyes. Yes, a great connection there. It’s interesting because I’ll start off with the interesting fact that Allison and I actually don’t have kids. And so you would think that the impetus would have been we had our own kids and we taught them financial literacy and it inspired us to teach more kids. But in fact, we sort of stumbled into this book. This is our second book. Our first book is called, “Start Your FIRE: A Modern Guide to Early Retirement.” And it’s all about early retirement and financial independence, which that book just poured right out of us because it’s something that we live and we know very well. And what happened was the publisher who we worked with on that book came back to us a couple months after that book was published and said, “Hey, we have an idea for this other book. And it’s investing for kids ages 8-12. And what do you guys think because you know about investing and financial concepts, and we think you guys might be able to pull this off.” And we thought, wow, we don’t have kids, we’re not teachers, we don’t hang out with kids. We have a few friends with kids, but we don’t spend a lot of time with them. And so we thought, man, this sounds really challenging and daunting. But it was during the 2020 year of COVID, so we had a lot of time on our hands. So we thought, let’s just go for it. And we dove into it, and it was very challenging because we wanted it to be interesting for kids and informative and fun but somehow, we put our heads together and we had a really good editing team that helped us with some of the concepts to relate to kids. And that’s — and we just dove into it and we just made it happen.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think you guys did an awesome job. You know, one of the things that stood out to me as my wife and I were looking through this book as parents of four young kids trying to teach this topic of money is that’s it’s very hands-on, it’s relatable, it’s digestible, lots of activities, really cool ideas. You know, I often find myself, especially writing, talking about this topic regularly, presenting on this topic, you take for granted how you learned some of this information along the way. You know, I often think, OK, take a concept like compound interest or, you know, mutual funds or index funds or ultimately trying to determine what your retirement savings goals, any of those concepts, and it’s very easy to get lost in the weeds. And I think it’s often hard to figure out, how am I going to break this down and teach this with my children and really work through this? And so I found myself looking through this, not only learning myself of oh, that’s a really neat way to teach a different concept or a very visual way or a nice activity to apply that information. So I think as I looked through this, whether someone is more advanced in their own knowledge and understanding of personal finance or whether they feel like they could also learn from these concepts, either one I think this book could be a really good guide for them alongside of working with their child. So great work in the work that you put together with the book. And Allison, knowing your background is a technical project manager, I’m curious, I mean, how and why did you catch FIRE — pun intended here — with this topic, not only as an individual pursuit for financial independence but also in wanting to help guide others to the work that you’re doing with RetireBy45.com and with the book “Investing for Kids.” Where does the interest come from?

Allison Tom: Part of it is that my college degree is actually psychology and education. So I had all these grand ideas of becoming a teacher, an elementary school teacher, after I graduated from college. But you know, after a couple of years, it dawned on me that frankly, our teachers are woefully underpaid. And there was pretty much there was no clear financial path for me to continue being a teacher making the salary I was making, so I was living in Boston at the time and I moved back to New York where we eventually met waiting tables, of all things. And we came out to San Francisco on a whim, we were on vacation, we were in our mid-20s, we thought, alright, let’s check out San Francisco. And so I bounced around from career to career and ended up on a consulting company that eventually brought me into the technical world of the Bay Area. But you know, so being a project manager is basically being a glorified teacher. So it’s dropping people, wrangling people to do things that you want them to do but do it in a way that makes them want to be — work as a team and learn from each other. So in a way, it was being a project manager was — it had very similar tendencies as it was being a teacher. And so we had always thought, oh, it would be great to retire early, but we didn’t really know what retiring early meant. We thought, oh, 55, that seems like a really good age to retire. It’s earlier than 65, but it seems so far in the future. And living in the Bay Area, our expenses were so high that we were like, there’s no way, even if we’re making decent salaries between the two of us that we’re ever going to retire. But about 11 years or so ago, Dylin came down with double pneumonia and was in the ICU for about 10 days and in the hospital altogether for almost two weeks. And that for us was a light bulb moment because he was within a 50/50 chance that he would make it. And so you know, after that, we kind of thought, OK, do we really want to keep working for the next 25 years or so? And so we kind of like made it our goal to get out of the rat race as soon as we could. And so we kind of fell into by accident. We can talk about that later, but it just — it kind of was a natural progression from all of the things that we’ve been doing over time.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that makes sense. And I appreciate you sharing some of the background and story. We’ll come back to how you got to that point of early retirement, obviously as I mentioned in the introduction, early 40s to be able to accomplish that goal, and we’ll talk a little bit about how you got to that path, why that was possible as well. And so let’s first dig into some of the book of “Investing for Kids.” Let’s start with the main characters of the book, the Dollar Duo: Mr. Finance and Investing Woman. Allison, tell us more about these two characters, how you came up with the idea, why it was important to the overall text, and how those characters can really help the learner, again, 8- to 12-year-old is the target group here, engage with the material throughout the book.

Allison Tom: Well, first of all, it was kind of funny, today is actually Superheroes Day, so –

Tim Ulbrich: There we go.

Allison Tom: It’s a perfect segue into the topic. We were actually taking a walk one day as we were writing the book, and we were talking about politics, of all things. And we were trying to figure out in the administration, whichever administration, whoever won the presidency, what each president could do to make their administration better. And so we kind of were talking and talking about of all things, the Justice League of America and who we would think would be a good fit for making this country a better country. And so the whole idea of the Justice League, kind of thought, we thought, oh, superheroes. Kids love superheroes. Let’s talk to our publisher about bringing in some superheroes. And we were like, well, I don’t know if they’ll go for that, there’s some extra graphics involved and it could be expensive, but we felt that it would really be a good way for kids to relate to finances. And so we kind of pushed hard for this idea of having superheroes teach kids finance.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that stood out to me in addition to how visual it is. This does not — especially for a topic like investing, right, can be weighty at times, it can be overwhelming, I often find myself when I’m giving a talk on this topic, starts with excitement often when we think about what the — and then you get into the weeds and you see the eyes gloss over, right, and other things. And this does not read like a textbook in any way, shape, or form. And I’m grateful for that. So thank you for the illustrations, the activities, the superheroes, but I think it very much reads like an interactive, applicable, nuts-and-bolts, important information, but how do I actually apply it and hopefully get excited about this information. Again, we’re thinking about an 8- to 12-year-old of wanting to really hopefully empower them to be excited with this for the rest of their own financial journey. And I very much read this book, as I mentioned, being a father of four boys who also lives and breathes personal finance, I really do often find myself in conversation with my boys about money. And honestly, I struggle at times with making the topic of money tangible and meaningful. And it can feel abstract, especially when I find myself trying to say and teach a principle that I very much understand but it feels more abstract as I talk it out loud and especially when you start to view it through the lens of a child. And so I like how you start the book with Chapter 1 on Money 101. You cover important topics like money doesn’t grow on trees, ways to earn money, a little bit of entrepreneurship in there, which is really cool, the history of money, where to keep money. And so Dylin, here’s the challenge that I’m seeing with my boys. In the age of credit cards, debit cards, direct deposit, online banking, digital currency, electronic payment methods, it can feel difficult to teach a child about money when you don’t see it. Right? There’s very little actual, physical cash and therefore, it can be hard to connect work and I think the opportunities from work with earning money and therefore, the opportunity to then save and see it grow. So what are some tips and strategies as you put this book together as well as the other teaching you’ve done on this topic about how can we teach kids about money in a way that it can be relatable, it can be tangible, and then hopefully it becomes memorable for them.

Dylin Redling: Yeah, you know, that’s a really good point about money being very digital in this day and age. I remember when I was a kid, one of the coolest things was my grandmother would give me and my cousins 50 single dollars for Christmas and for our birthdays. They would come in a little box just big enough to hold those 50 $1 bills.

Tim Ulbrich: I love that.

Dylin Redling: And — yeah, it was really cool. And you know, $50 back then for a kid was a lot of money. And those 50 $1 bills would last a really long time. I would take them into the arcade, into the pizza parlor, whatever. And so maybe one way to do it is to actually bring back physical money. And I don’t think the amount really matters that much. But like you said, I mean, being able to tangibly feel it, see it, and understand it, it helps a lot more if you’re using physical money. And I’ll actually give an example of that we used on our blog and in actually “Start Your FIRE” book. I don’t think we mentioned it in “Investing for Kids,” but it’s a little story I like to tell about a money lesson that I actually learned from Allison when we were waiting tables in New York. So we met in a big restaurant in Times Square, and Allison grew up with a little bit of a better financial education in her household than I did. My single mother was wonderful, but it was all paycheck-to-paycheck, there wasn’t a lot of saving or investing. So I came into our initial relationship not very good at dealing with money. So anyway, we were waiting tables. So all of our money pretty much was in tips. So we would have tons of cash. And I remember just putting the money — I would wad it up into balls, I would stuff it into all four of my pockets because I was busy. And then we would go out afterwards and Allison saw how I was treating my money, and she was like, “What are you doing? How do you even keep track of that? That’s awful.” And so she taught me this little lesson. And she doesn’t even remember this because this was 25 years ago, but it stuck out in my head. And basically, I call it the Wallet Lesson. When you take all of your bills and you put them nicely, neatly in order from small to big or big to small, whatever works, fold it neatly into your wallet. And it’s really simple, but the reason it was impactful for me is because it just got me to think about how to respect and treat money. You know, you work really hard for money –

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Dylin Redling: And if you don’t treat it well, you don’t respect it, you know, that $50 might not seem like a big deal. But when it gets to $100,000 or $500,000 and you don’t have that same respect and feel for what that money represents and how hard it was to earn it, you’re not going to put it and treat it and save it and protect it as well as you could.

Tim Ulbrich: Such a good example of a behavioral move, right? The number of dollars didn’t change, but how you treated them, how you respected them, how you viewed them, and I think many of our listeners, we talk on this show often that I believe personal finance, it’s about the math and it’s about the behavior, and both of those are very important and some of those types of moves or here, teaching kids in that way, I think can be very powerful as well. Allison, Chapter 2, save your money, you have an activity titled “Be an Interest Rate Detective.” I love this. I thought this was a really cool interactive activity where you challenge the reader to work with an adult to research interest rates for a local bank savings account, a CD, so a Certificate of Deposit, and an online savings account. So again, this was just one of many example activities you have throughout the book, but why is an activity like this so important in terms of someone being an interest rate detective to experience and go through as they begin their journey of understanding some of the basics of investing?

Allison Tom: So part of it is we wanted all the activities to be something that kids could do with the adult in their life. And we didn’t assume that every child has a parent because we know in this modern day and age that families are different nowadays, and you might have two moms or two dads or a grandmother or grandfather or a guardian of some sort. So we wanted something that people could do together with — kids could do together with someone else. And we thought, oh, it’s going to be interesting because banks are closed during COVID. When we were writing the book, it was right in the heart of shelter in place. But we thought, well, you know, kids have access to — most kids have access to a computer, they can at least walk around to a local bank and banks always have their advertisements on their windows with their interest rates. But we thought it would be an interesting way for kids to see what is in their environment and practice some good behaviors like oh, what does interest rate mean? What is APR? Those are, they’re jumbled letters and so you actually learn what the acronym stands for. And so we want to make sure that kids could kind of connect their physical world to their these abstract ideas about money. So all these activities are kind of a way to get kids to start thinking about it, and we were like, oh, kids aren’t really going to want to do activities, it’s extra homework. So we tried to make them fun and things that they could actually do and feel like they were learning something.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think this was a good example where the activity really, to me, is a rabbit hole of other learning, right? So if you go to the bank and do this activity, just like you suggested, Allison, it leads to other conversations and questions like, what is the federal reserve? And what is an insured account? What does that mean? You talk about that in the book, you know, how do you explain the federal reserve? What is compound interest? Why is that so important? What is principle? What’s interest? What do terms mean? And I think it, again, leads to further conversations, which obviously hopefully spark some motivation and curiosity to learn more on this topic. Dylin, in Chapter 3, Introduction to Investing, you cover very important topics, you know, why to invest, risk v. reward — and I love the Risk-o-meter throughout the book, that was really neat — liquidity, the importance of conducting research, and connecting back to my previous comment about the difficulties teaching a child about money when it may not be tangible, you can’t see it, can’t feel it type of a mindset, I think this is another area where parents may feel challenged to teach a child the importance of investing when again, it might feel somewhat abstract and here, we’re talking about delayed gratification, right? So not spending money on something today that has an instant reward. I think back to my childhood, it was driving to the corner store, buying baseball cards, buying candy, you earn the money, you spent the money, you saw the reward instantly. So here, the activity on investing, which I thought helped to really drive this concept further, you talk about an activity of picking a stock and really going through that process of understanding what’s involved there. So talk us through that type of an activity, what’s involved in that, and why that’s important to help a child relate to the concepts of investing.

Dylin Redling: Yeah, sure. It’s interesting because I can also relate it to how Allison and I do our own investing. And most of what we do, to be honest, are buying mutual funds and index funds. We don’t do a lot of single stock buying. However, there are some advantages to just helping a child or anybody, really, think about, well, if you were to buy a single stock, what would the thought process be when you do that? We actually just wrote an interesting post on our blog just about a week ago where we had $10,000 that we wanted to experiment with. And what we did is we selected five different stocks to invest that $10,000. So $2,000 per stock. And I went through the process in that blog post of why we would do this. And it wasn’t to get rich quick or to see what would happen in a week or a month. This particular blog post talked about a one-year time frame. And it’s the same with the activity for the child. I think we used a shorter — a relatively short time frame so they could at least measure their success. At the end of the day, investing, as you know, as your listeners know, it’s very much a long-term process where you’re investing over years and decades. But again, to get the child to think about some of the things that you might want to think about with whether you’re investing in stocks or any sort of investment, what are the things that go into that thought process? And so getting back to that blog post I wrote, some of the stocks that I suggested that we test out, one was a blockchain ETF. So now that bitcoin and other coin-based just went public, those are things that we wouldn’t necessarily invest in directly. But a blockchain ETF is an example of a way you could dip your toe into that technology. So that was the thought process there. Another example was a cruise company, NCL, Norwegian Cruise Line. Now that COVID is starting to disappear and everyone’s getting vaccinated, people, there’s this pent-up demand to start traveling again. So we thought, hey, in the next year, NCL may actually start to do really good. And they even have a program where if you have 100 shares, you get extra bonus points. And so the idea is to think about all the different aspects to that investment, like how does it relate to what’s going on in the world right now? And what other pros and cons are there to that investment?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think we share your philosophy. What I heard there is our planning team often says a good investing plan should probably be as about boring as watching paint dry.

Dylin Redling: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: At the end of the day, it’s about a long-term play. But I like this activity as a concept. You know, I remember I had a great Econ101 teacher that had us do a similar activity. And it’s very memorable because it also leads to many other conversations like well, what type of influence does my marketing have? Or I thought this was going to go this way, and it didn’t go this way. Maybe I had some overconfidence in my selection of things. So why is diversification important? So I think, again, reading it and doing it, two very, very different things. And I think people experiencing this firsthand, especially you think of an 8- to 12-year-old, a very kinesthetic learner, right, hands-on experience that moment, be able to learn through that experience. Allison, as I went through the book, many times I thought to myself, man, what if I would have had some of this information earlier? What if I would have had this in middle school or high school or perhaps even earlier? And shoutout to my parents, who did an awesome job of the foundations, grew up in a small business, felt like I had a little bit of a head start. But outside of some K-12 programs and in higher education, I would say it’s largely absent, maybe some elective courses or some opportunities. And so I can’t help but think like, why aren’t we doing more of this? Why aren’t we covering more of this in a K-12 education? I mean, this type of book, this type of experience, these types of activities would be a home run in teaching kids about money. Here, we’re taking 8-12 investing, but obviously we all know it’s broader than that as well. So question here, I’m not asking you to solve the personal finance educational system woes, but why do you think this is not more foundational to our educational system in terms of personal finance education?

Allison Tom: Right. So I think part of it is that our generation didn’t really learn this either. And so as the educators come up with their curriculum, I think honestly, a lot of adults are really intimidated by personal finance. And so it’s something that seems easy enough for them to cut out of the education system as an elective because well, if they don’t understand it, then kids aren’t going to understand it. And if they’re intimidated by it, then kids are definitely going to not understand it and be intimidated by it, so let’s not even talk about it, which actually is one of the reasons why we thought it was important to write the book. We didn’t get this education when we were growing up. I know my parents are second-generation immigrants. And so the money lessons that they learned were from their parents, who grew up during the Great Depression. And as immigrants coming over to this country, they just pooled their money and they saved and they saved and they worked 20 hours a day to make money and then they would maybe invest it in the bank, although plenty of my relatives didn’t even bother with that. So my lessons growing up were save and save and save and save. I had a little piggy bank, and I would put all my coins in from the piggy bank, but that was the only thing that I learned. And so it wasn’t until I got to college, and then I had my first credit card that I just — oof. It was bad. I did not understand the concept of paying credit cards and interest rates and late fees and minimum payments. And so, you know, I got in trouble with credit cards after I graduated. And it wasn’t until after that that I thought, oh, I really need to learn more about what’s going on here. And so I started watching some shows on PBS, but by then, you know, I’m in my early 20s at that point. My learning took a lot longer for the habits to become engrained in me. So you know, I really do think that if kids could see this stuff earlier, it would be so much more impactful. You know, I’ve talked to a girlfriend of mine, her daughter is 17 and she read the book and she was like, “Yeah, you know, I’m going to start doing the savings plan when I get a job.” My friend was laughing because she’s like, my daughter doesn’t have a job. But she was just like, she got inspired by it, and I thought, oh, if we could just get kids to learn this stuff sooner –

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Allison Tom: All the great things we could do with them. So hopefully. Hopefully.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I love that, to that point, Allison. I think it was early in the book, you have the reader go through an activity where they identify problems, things that could be improved upon, right? And one of the things I often say is that any business is a solution to a problem, and that solution is one that people care about and are willing to pay for. And you know, I love that because I think for a child, like if they can think about, what are some things that could be done better? You know, one of them you proposed in the book, which was really cool because we recently just bought this — or actually we got it as a gift for our kids from our family — is you mention like chess. Really hard game for kids to play, kids to learn. Why isn’t there a solution out there that can make chess easier to play? Sure enough, there is. There’s a card game where you draw cards, you learn the basic moves of chess. So things like that, I think you’re inspiring some of the creative thinking, the problem solving, and laying some of the seeds of entrepreneurship or even for those that don’t own their own company, which would be the vast majority of folks, intrepreneurship, how can you be a problem solver within your organization? And how can you create solutions that make you a valuable asset within that organization? I want to shift gears a bit to connect some of the work that you have in “Investing for Kids” with what you cover in your site, Retireby45.com. You mentioned your other FIRE book as well. And I got the impression that you both, you believe that everyone could put together — especially an 8- to 12-year-old reading the “Investing for Kids” book — put together a plan for FIRE, again Financial Independence Retire Early — by the age of 45. So Dylin, our listeners know firsthand that time in the market equals success, and that compound interest, as you mentioned in the book, is the eighth wonder of the world. So we know the math is possible if someone starts at an early age. But why do you think it’s important that someone plans for FIRE by the age of 45?

Dylin Redling: Whether you’re able to retire in your 40s or your 50s or you do a traditional retirement in your 60s or even beyond, Allison’s dad, for example, is 70 now — or slightly older — and has no intentions of stopping working even though Allison suggests that he stop and enjoy life. But he’s got a job that he really loves. And so there’s a lot of people out there that are like that. So we love our FIRE lifestyle and the fact that we left our W2 jobs in our 40s, but we know it’s not for everybody. But what we do also know is that the concepts of Financial Independence are good for anybody, no matter when you might want to retire. And those concepts are really about doing the right thing with your money. So it starts with saving, it starts with being somewhat frugal — and when we say frugal, we don’t mean living a spartan lifestyle. We just mean not going crazy with money with spending on things that you don’t want or that you don’t need or you feel like you have to keep up with the Joneses and get a brand new SUV every two years. So there’s that, and of course investing wisely. And you know, we have another story that we write out on our blog, which kind of I think can be somewhat inspiring to people who are in their 20s and maybe haven’t really done anything with their finances yet. We, as Allison alluded to earlier, kind of our story is we met in New York and then we moved to San Francisco. And we were in our mid-20s at the time. And we still hadn’t invested a dollar yet. And it wasn’t until our late 20s that we got “real jobs” with a 401k plan and that sort of thing. And so it wasn’t until our late 20s that we really started investing. And our entire investment life cycle, if you will, was about 17 years from our late 20s to our early 40s. And in that time, we just were so diligent about dollar cost averaging, we did — we invested into both our 401k, our IRA, and a taxable account once we got some extra income literally on a weekly basis for years and years and years, no matter what the market was doing. Through the 2001 .com crash because we’re both working in that industry and of course through the ‘08-’09 recession. Never stopped. And so those kind of habits, again, are good for anybody no matter what your retirement goals are, just really those financial habits are going to put you in a great position.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I’m glad you shared that, Dylin. One of the questions I had for you was I read your story of not really late 20s, early 30s getting serious about investing, but retired or achieving FIRE by 43, 44, so short window of time, right? We tend to think of a very long trajectory of savings. You mentioned 17 years. So my question was what was the secret sauce? And if I heard you correctly, it was tax-advantaged accounts, 401k’s, IRAs, some taxable accounts and dollar cost averaging and being consistent. Is that fair?

Dylin Redling: Yeah. You know, a couple other things we did — we did the phrase “side hustle” is really popular now. But when we did it, we just called it a side business. This was in the mid-2000s. I came up with an affiliate marketing business that I ran on the weekends. And it ended up being a third income for us. So there’s things like maximizing your income. And then another concept — I’ll shoot it over to Allison to talk about — is geographic arbitrage. And that helped us kind of move about nine years ahead of schedule. Do you want to talk about how we did that?

Allison Tom: Sure. So geographic arbitrage has a lot of different meanings in the — for people. And the gist of it is that you leverage your current salary and move to a lower cost location. And so most people think that is oh, I’m going to make my United States salary and move to Thailand or Costa Rica, where the cost of living is exceedingly low. We did it by moving from San Francisco to Oakland, California, which geographically is a 10-mile difference but at the time, we were able to save about 50% on our housing costs.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Allison Tom: So yeah, it was pretty insane. For being 10 miles away, two or three train stops away on our BART system, we were able to pay off our condo in Oakland in cash by selling our place in San Francisco, which alleviated all the mortgage payments, the increase in property payments and our insurance went down as well. So that, Dylin calculated later, saved us probably about nine years of working because our mortgage in San Francisco was so astronomical that just cutting 50% off just pushed us into the financial independence sphere that much sooner. So it’s things like that. Obviously not everybody is going to be able to save 50% of their housing by moving 10 miles away, but there are other ways to do it. You can do things like house hacking where if you have space on your property, you could build an extra unit and rent it out or if you have an extra bedroom, you could rent it out and have a roommate or Airbnb it. So there are ways tod do it without going through the extreme example that we had. So there are plenty of ways to cut costs in your life that are relatively painless, that we’ve talked about all the time, so there are just different ways to do it to achieve FIRE. And some people don’t even choose to do the early retiring like my father is the example. So retirement is really more of the optional part. We’re not saying you have to retire, you have to leave your job and just sit around drinking mojitos all day long, although it’s certainly not a bad lifestyle. But you know, the retiring part is up to the individual.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I’m glad you said that, Allison, because I know many of our listeners love what they’re doing as pharmacists and they worked hard, and they got a doctorate degree and they have student loan debt and they invested in that education. And so my read is that many pharmacists are captivated by the idea and the power of financial independence. And you know, I believe that’s a goal we all should strive for for a variety of reasons with RE, Retire Early, being one of those perhaps reasons, but other things as well in terms of why that financial independence may be important. So nine years, nine years was estimated from that one decision, which I’m coming full-circle, Allison, about what you shared at the beginning of Dylin being in the hospital with double pneumonia. And when you start to think about the value of time, I mean, nine years and doing some of those calculations and what does that mean for one’s personal situation, I think that’s a really powerful example of taking something that can be mathematical or objective and looking at it in a different mindset. If we were to make this move or this move, what does that mean for us in terms of timeline to retirement, working part-time, pursuing another opportunity, what does that mean for one’s goals towards financial independence? I’m glad you discussed geographic arbitrage because one of the things we see in our profession in pharmacy is that unfortunately, a pharmacist’s income usually does not translate with cost of living. So here I am in the Midwest and that income for a pharmacist in the Bay Area might be a little bit more for a similar role but nowhere near the cost of living difference between Columbus, Ohio and San Francisco, California. So I think this is a move, especially for many of our listeners that might be saying, you know, ‘I’m making a decent income, but I’ve got a lot of work to do on student loans, I want to invest, I want to buy a home, I want to do this or that. And at the end of the day, there’s only so much income.’ So is a move, whether it’s near, within 10 miles, or something a little bit more significant, is that an option that somebody may be able to pursue? Allison, what have you guys been doing since achieving FIRE? You know, what’s been the goals, what’s been the priority, how have you been spending time? I think that’s one of the other common objections that comes up is like, if I retire at 45, like I don’t even know what I would do with my time. Tell us a little bit about that journey since you guys have achieve FIRE.

Allison Tom: So it’s funny, we — so we FIREd quite by accident. We were both working in tech startups, and Dylin got laid off and then I got laid off about five weeks afterwards. And so we kind of took the time after we were both laid off to travel a little bit. That was one of the things that two people who are working can’t always schedule, coordinate their schedules, to take some time off. And so we thought, alright, this is the perfect time. We went to Europe for two weeks and did a cruise around the Mediterranean and had a blast and then came back and thought, alright, we’ve got to get back to work. So we went about — we went on interviews and we just saw just how miserable people were at their jobs. Just so stressed out, and I interviewed with this one guy who was like, “You need to tell me who said this about us so I can go talk to them.” I’m like, I don’t want to work for you. You’re scary. And so you know, the three months turned into six months and then nine months and then Dylin figured out kind of like back of the envelope math, figured out that we could actually retire without having to go back to work anymore. He stumbled into the 4% Rule, which we still hadn’t at that point heard the term FIRE before. You know, the first few years we did a fair amount of traveling domestically. Like we would go back to visit his mother and my father, who both live on the East Coast, which is one of the things you just don’t get time to do when you’re working is spending time with family. And so you know, if we would go back East, we would maybe spend two days with each parent because they don’t live that close to each other. And now, we can actually go and spend a week with each parental unit. And that makes a big difference because, you know, they’re getting older and living across the country, it’s harder to connect with them. So we do a lot more slow travel where we don’t have to feel rushed between people. And then it’s funny because we — our retirement has changed as time goes by. So for people who are concerned that oh, what am I going to do with my time? Your time is yours. You can now make your own schedule. And that, to me, is the beauty of not just financial independence, it’s financial freedom because you can choose what you want to do. And so you know, the first two years were traveling domestically, the second two years were more about traveling internationally. And we had two cats that passed away at 19. So for us, they were like our kids. And so we did not do a lot of traveling away from them until they passed on. And so once they did, we’re like, alright, we’re going to go crazy and go travel around the globe. And so the last — and then the last two years have been focused on writing books and going to financial conferences and kind of learning from others and then applying that and communicating out to audiences like yours. That’s the beauty of the time being yours is you can make it whatever you want to do. We also do a lot more work with our community that we never had time to do when we were working. So we’re a lot more invested in our neighborhood, and we spend more time working with businesses in our neighborhood to bring in more business. So having that luxury of time means you can go explore whatever interests pop up. So you know, did we ever think that we would be working with small businesses two years ago? Probably not. But now we are, and we’re advocates for small businesses in our neighborhood, and that’s something we would never have thought we would have done when we first retired.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s very cool. And I read as well your goal of 60 by 60. Sixty countries to visit by the age of 60. If I understand it, you’re about halfway through. Looking forward to following your journey. I’m hopeful you’ll be blogging about it along the way as well. Dylin, I’m going to throw the last question I have over for you. And one of the things I think about when it comes to early retirement and achieving financial independence or the FIRE movement is that it really does require delayed gratification and at times, you mentioned the word frugality earlier. And that frugality can be at various levels. As you mentioned, we’re not necessarily talking spartan type of frugality. My question here though is how do we strike the balance? You know, whether it’s for ourselves or teaching our kids about saving and investing to take care of our future selves but also valuing and making sure we understand that it’s important that we enjoy some of the money along the way as well. I find myself often struggling with this individually of, OK, I know I need to take care of my future self and probably sometimes I do that at the expense of the experiences and the enjoyment today. And I think striking this balance is really important. What are your thoughts on that?

Dylin Redling: You know, I’ll actually plug a couple of other books besides ours that I really like. One is “A Simple Path to Wealth” by Janelle Collins, which I highly recommend. And another one is actually one of Allison’s favorites. It has a funny title, it’s “I Will Teach You to Be Rich” by —

Allison Tom: Ramit Sethi.

Dylin Redling: Ramit Sethi. And we saw him speak. He was a keynote speaker at FinCon a couple years ago. And one of the things that he said, which really resonated with me and it goes to your question, is spend liberally on things that you enjoy. But hold back aggressively on things that are not important to you. And it’s a very simple concept. But again, it goes directly to your question, and it’s really — maybe you or your kids or whoever’s thinking about this makes a list. Here are the things I’m passionate about. Here are the things that I really enjoy. I love travel, I like eating out at restaurants, I like entertainment, sports, whatever it is. And I’m going to set my budget to focus on those things. I’m going to be OK — maybe I’ll go to a World Series game because I’m a huge baseball fan. Or I’m going to set a goal to go to every baseball park in America. You know, whatever that goal might be. Conversely, think about the things that aren’t that important to you like maybe a brand new car is not important to you, so you drive your car for 10-20 years and you really just never focus on spending a lot of money on that. And so those are the concepts that I think are something to really think about. And for us, that’s what we’ve always done. When people look at our lifestyle from the outside or even some of our friends, you know, they may think, wow, we’ve always lived in pretty expensive apartments — or condos or houses, so they might think, wow, they spend a lot of money. But if you look a little deeper, like we had a car for almost 20 years. We had a Volkswagen Jetta. We just recently got a new-to-us couple years old Toyota Corolla. So there’s an example where we just — you know, having a brand new car wasn’t that important to us. But again, we have the 60 by 60 goal. So travel is really important to us. And we have no problem spending that extra money to go travel for a few months and really try to see the world because that’s something that we’re passionate about. That being said, when we do travel, we try to — we don’t stay at four-star hotels because part of our kind of nature is to also find some deals here and there and to just spend consciously, to just spend our money kind of wisely.

Allison Tom: We prefer to spend money on the experiences rather than the hotel room that we’re putting our suitcase in.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. And I was at that keynote that you were at, and with Ramit, and I’ll never forget it. I mean, the concept that he talks about in “I Will Teach You to Be Rich,” money dials, right, is find the things that are of value to you and dial it up. And find the things that are not and dial them down. And you know, I remember hearing that, and I was like, heck yeah. It just makes so much sense. And you know, to the comment of experiences and even the literature really showing happiness related to money, it’s experience and giving typically are the areas where we see that biggest connection. So Allison and Dylin, I really appreciate you guys taking time to come on the show. Kudos on the work here with “Investing for Kids,” I really enjoyed it, as well as the work that you’re doing at Retireby45.com and your other book, “Start Your FIRE: A Modern Guide to Early Retirement.” As it relates to the book “Investing for Kids,” I hope our audience will pick up a copy of this, available at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, many other online vendors as well. I really did find it engaging, it was rich with relevant information, practical exercises to apply the information, as I mentioned, certainly does not look, feel, or read like a textbook. And so I think many in our community are going to find it helpful. What’s the best place for our audience to go to follow the work that the two of you are doing?

Dylin Redling: Well, our — I’ll plug our website, and I’ll have Allison plug our Instagram account. Retireby45.com is our website, and we blog there on a once or twice a month with a fresh new blog post, and we have a bunch of stuff on there, courses and other things. And then Allison’s been working on really putting together a pretty cool Instagram account.

Allison Tom: So we have Instagram and Twitter both @retire_by_45. Yeah, it’s been an interesting challenge trying to get into the social media, the social media space.

Tim Ulbrich: Very good. We will link to both of those in the show notes as well as the Retireby45.com as well as the books that we’ve mentioned, not only your books but the others that you referenced as well. So the two of you, thank you again very much for your time. I really appreciate it.

Allison Tom: Thanks, Tim. It’s great.

Dylin Redling: Thanks.

Allison Tom: O-H

Dylin Redling: I-O

Tim Ulbrich: I-O!

Dylin Redling: Thanks, Tim. Great talking to you.

Tim Ulbrich: As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 277: How This Pharmacist Teaches Financial Principles As a Preceptor and Parent

Posted on by Caitlin Boyle

Dr. Frank McCabe discusses his career in pharmacy and how he teaches financial principles as a preceptor and parent.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Frank M. McCabe is currently a Pharmacist Consultant with over 37 years experience in the Healthcare industry. He received his undergraduate degrees from Orange County Community College-SUNY Orange (Business Administration) and MCPHS University-Boston (BS Pharm) and his graduate degrees, Masters in Business Administration (Management) from the West Point Military Academy Program (USMA) of Long Island University-CW Post Campus and Doctor of Pharmacy degree from MCPHS University-Boston. Dr. McCabe is a Board Certified Pharmacotherapy Specialist (BCPS). He has served as a preceptor to pharmacy students and pharmacy practice residents. Most of Dr. McCabe’s pharmacy professional experience was in Hospital Pharmacy, including leading one of Nations leading healthcare institutions (St. Joseph’s Health of NJ) acute care hospitals during the Covid-19 pandemic (St. Joseph’s Wayne Medical Center, Wayne, NJ). Dr. McCabe also has had experience in Community practice and Pharmaceutical Industry (Medication Safety and Pharmaceutical Sales Management/Data Management). Dr. McCabe is also a Certified NJ Consultant Pharmacist, which is recognized Nationally by the VA. He has extensive engagement in Professional Societies, including when practicing in New York State as Secretary for the Mid-Hudson Chapter of the NYS Council of Health System Pharmacists and over 10 years as Treasurer for the North Chapter of the New Jersey Society of Health System Pharmacists. Dr. McCabe was also a frequently requested speaker on Nutrition and Vitamins for Corporations and Community organizations in the North New Jersey area.

Episode Summary

This week, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, is joined by Frank McCabe, PharmD, BCPS, MBA. Frank is a pharmacist consultant with over 37 years of experience in the pharmacy industry. This week, Dr. McCabe discusses his career in pharmacy, how he caught FIRE early in his career, strategies he employed to allow his children to attend out-of-state schools with very little debt, and how he incorporated personal finance education into his rotational experiences for student pharmacists as a preceptor.

Frank’s advice to younger pharmacists includes being active in professional societies for continuing education, networking, and helping the future generation of pharmacists. He also encourages younger pharmacists to look for opportunities and training, as he did, so that when opportunities in the pharmacy field present themselves, they may take advantage. He shares a reminder to take care of your mental and physical health while seeking opportunities to make additional income. Being conservative with spending and living frugally while paying off student loan debt can be balanced with putting money into your retirement accounts as well. For pharmacists in the latter part of their careers, Frank explains his view of the current time of financial challenges and high volatility during this period of his retirement. The episode closes with Frank’s strategies for educating student pharmacists and his children on financial principles. His methods include building an understanding of the value of hard work balanced with finding and enjoying your life’s passions.

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

YFP Planning: Financial Planning for Pharmacists
Schedule a free Discovery Call with YFP Planning
Seven Figure Pharmacist by Tim Church, PharmD and Tim Ulbrich, PharmD
Bankrate
Email Your Financial Pharmacist: [email protected]
Your Financial Pharmacist Disclaimer and Disclosures

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:01] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, I had the pleasure of interviewing Frank McCabe, a pharmacist consultant living in Pittsburgh, with more than 35 years of experience as a pharmacist spanning institutional practice, pharmacy administration, and pharmaceutical industry.

During the show, we discuss how he caught fire with personal finance early on in his career. Some of the strategies that he employed to allow his now adult children to attend out of state schools nearly debt-free. And why and how he incorporates personal finance education into rotation experiences for student pharmacists.

Before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does and working one on one with more than 250 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers fi only high-touch financial planning that is customized to the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about working one on one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Frank McCabe.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:27] LB: Frank, welcome to the show.

[00:01:29] FM: Thank you, Tim. Glad to be here. And hopefully we can help the next generation and admire what you’ve done with your financial pharmacist and being an entrepreneur. And it’s really much needed in our profession.

[00:01:42] TU: I really appreciate that. And I’ve been looking forward to this conversation. And just some background of how we got here, as you had reached out to me about purchasing a copy of the book Seven Figure Pharmacist because of a student that you were precepting and wanting to pay it forward. And that initiated a conversation. And we went back and forth with a few emails.

And I quickly realized that you had a passion for, as you mentioned, training up the next generation, paying it forward, teaching some of the principles that have been so important to you in your own personal journey and your own career journey as well. And so, that’s what we’re going to be talking about here today. We’ll talk a little bit about your personal career journey in pharmacy. We’ll talk a little bit about your family journey and how you taught your children about money or still teaching children about money.

[00:02:26] FM: Absolutely.

[00:02:27] TU: And the work that you’ve done precepting students and thoughts that you have on teaching personal finance as a part of some of those experiential rotations. Let’s start, Frank, with your own personal journey and pharmacy. Where did you go to school? When did you graduate? And what drew you into the profession?

[00:02:43] FM: Oh, gosh. Tim, it’s a long journey. 37 faithful years ago. And actually, over 40. I was in the top 25% of my graduating class in high school. And in New York State, in Orange County. Applied to Albany College of Pharmacy. Didn’t get in. Oh, no. But I really admired my family pharmacist, Stanley Moroknek, who own Thrift Drugs in Monroe, New York. So, okay, I did what was convenient and easy to do. But it worked out real well.

I went to SUNY Orange, the State University in New York, community college. Got a two-year degree in business. And you’ll see how that ties in later on. Completed my associate’s degree. Applied to Massachusetts College of Pharmacy, which is now MCPHS University, Northeastern College of Pharmacy.

And what was unique about going to a SUNY school, I was guaranteed a spot in a four-year school. I got accepted at SUNY Buffalo for business. But really wanted to pharmacy. So I went off to MCPHS University. And so, I did my undergrad degree there, my Bachelor of Science in Pharmacy. Graduated in December of 1983 and came out into practice. Eventually, I did go on and earn an MBA and also a my PharmD.

[00:03:53] TU: Tell us maybe the cliff note version, 1983 to 2022. Tell us about your career journey, the different areas of the profession that you’ve been in and leading up to the work that you’ve done most recently.

[00:04:07] FM: Yeah, thank you, Tim. I work for CVS when I first graduated school. It was 13-hour days. No lunch. No dinner. No break. Because you were part of management. I graduated 160 pounds. After a year, I was 130 pounds. I said, “I can’t keep this up. I’ll waste away to nothing.”

I took an opportunity to work for the New York State Office of Mental Health at a large inpatient psychiatric center. It had 1,000 patients when I started there. And that’s where I cut my hospital chops. Like, institutional pharmacy jobs.

I realized that working there was very good for the patients. Worked with a great group of people. Pharmacists are just smart people and just great people to collaborate with. But also, had a yearning and a desire to do other things in pharmacy and to be a director and assistant director in New York State OMH, often mental health, you would have to have an advanced degree.

At that time, the Continental Health Care Systems, we’re switching to pharmacy automation. Back then there was no computers, no clinical. It was all typing everything out. Going back years and years. And we visited one of the booths at the New York State Council of Health System Pharmacists. And I should weave in there, Tim. Still to this day, for most of my career, I’ve been active in professional societies. And that’s one way I do give back. And I really implore the younger generation to become involved, whether it’d be a community practice, or institutional practice society. Because you meet a lot of good people and you also have opportunities for continuing education and also to help the younger generation.

It was through that meeting that I went back and realized I really needed to get an MBA. We were very fortunate at West Point, the New York State Military Academy, Long Island University. Had a program there for 30 years. It was half civilian, half military. Did 60 credits in 18 months while working full-time.

[00:06:05] TU: Wow! Wow!

[00:06:07] FM: And that gave me the opportunity, and my X as well. And I went into pharmaceutical sales, and rose through there. Became a district sales manager. But the industry changed after 2000. The regulatory climate changed. The political climate changed.

But one thing that sales was very good for, and I think I say to the younger generation, everybody should do a stint in sales. You’re selling a product, but you’re also selling yourself, Tim. You need to articulate your ideas and things.

And I’ll tie that in for when I was at St. Joseph’s Health, St. Joseph’s Health in northern New Jersey. And I was at St. Joseph’s University Medical Center for six years. It is the fifth busiest emergency room in the entire nation with over 170,000 ER visits a year. Clinically, it was great. Interacting with residents, the pharmacy residents, the clinical pharmacist. But you really need to be able to have opportunities.

And along my career, besides continuing education, having an MBA, going back for my PharmD, you don’t know what doors are going to be open to you. And there was a management shake-up at St. Joseph’s, and I had the opportunity to become the manager, the pharmacist in charge, at our small facility, St. Joseph Wayne Medical Center. But nobody had figured this out, Tim. I have an MBA. I’m good with numbers. Most pharmacists are excellent with numbers. Nurses are not so good with numbers. But boy, they’re so good at other things and just have such admiration and appreciation for what they do.

But because of that MBA and that additional education, it paid off that many years later. I got my MBA in December of 1991. But here we are in 2018 and my career and realized that St. Joseph’s Health, between both facilities, we had $2.1 million in expired drugs. Not unusual. Probably on the higher side. But the only way you’re going to get a handle on that, Tim, is through automation.

But also, I was responsible for – neither facility had other pharmacy upgraded in 40 years. We didn’t have any clean rooms. Hey, where are we going to get the money for this? And better yet, we need clean rooms. We need carousels.

I saw Omnicell’s IVX. I don’t know if – Are you familiar with IVX at all, Tim?

[00:08:35] TU: I’m not. No.

[00:08:36] FM: In terms of sterile compounding. It’s a modular device that’ll go in the hood. It has a scale on it. It has a printer. It has a camera. And there’s a cloud library of the specific gravities of the active ingredients and the inactive ingredients. You’re checking that process. While the technicians are compounding, you’re capturing that for regulatory and legal purposes going forward.

I went out – in fact, we came out here to cranberry, Pennsylvania, to Omnicell’s headquarters for their automation, and realized, “Hey, we can do this.” I was with my boss, Mike Cairoli, who’s now a VP at St. Joseph’s Health, and got a two and a half million-dollar contract signed. They don’t guarantee it anymore. But we also had guarantees of two and a half million dollars in savings over five years.

I was able to go to the C suite at St. Joseph’s Health. And they’re second biggest provider of charity care in the state of New Jersey and very poor, but to get these contracts signed. And it’s because of my passion. And I tried to inculcate in my staff, whether it’d be the pharmacists or the technicians. And it was true, Tim. On a given day, a patient upstairs could be a colleague, could be a family member, be a friend. It’s our obligation and to practice at our highest level as pharmacist. But to do that, you need technology. I had the opportunity to do that. And also, appeared before the New Jersey Board of Pharmacy twice to educate the board on technology.

And for reasons, and we wanted to be closer to family here in the Pittsburgh area, we relocated here. But St. Joseph’s Health, last March, the New Jersey Board of Pharmacy requires that a pharmacist be in the cleanroom or the compounding area when the technicians are compounding. But because of my background in sales, my MBA, always been trying to get educated, just not in our profession, but also outside our profession, St. Joseph’s Health was the first institution in the state of New Jersey to get approval and have a pilot once they’re up and running with their cleanrooms and Omnicell’s IVX to have the pharmacists remotely located outside still having line of sight with the technicians compounding, but not having to be in there.

And the rationale for that, human beings, a simple matter of our head, Tim, you kick off 50,000 flakes of skin and bacteria. More people are introduced to that clean space, the risk of breaking that sterile compounding area. And also, if you had a pharmacist in there, as I talked to Linda Weitzel, the board president Anthony Rubinaccio, the Executive Director of Board of Pharmacy and other members of the board, that you could have 15 technicians compounding. But one pharmacist? How is that safe?

If you look at that career progression, I would implore the younger generation. It’s tiring. You’re working. You get family. You have children. But always look for those opportunities to latch on to education, whether it’d be a formal education through advanced education, or certificate programs. Because you don’t know down the road where those opportunities are going to happen. And if you have the skill set and that education and training, when that door opens, you can step through it.

[00:12:04] TU: That’s really great, Frank. And it’s really cool to see the thread. One of the things you mentioned, which resonates with me a lot, is the importance of some of the sales principles that you learned, obviously, through the work that you did in the pharmaceutical industry. But as you mentioned, it’s not just about selling the product. It’s about selling yourself and some of the confidence that comes through that process. But I can see where that sales background comes to be when you’re in front of the C suite at St. Joseph and making a pitch. When you’re in front of the board of pharmacy, the New Jersey board, those are sales principles. You’re not, per se, selling a product. But you’re really bringing yourself forward and obviously making a pitch for what you want to do. Really cool to hear and see the thread throughout the journey that you mentioned.

I want to shift a little bit and talk about some of your own personal financial journey, but also how you’ve been able to instill these principles not only within your own family, but also with students and others that you’ve precepted. And something that really stood out to me in our email exchange was how you instilled the financial knowledge in your children. And before we jump into that, I’m curious how and why did you get interested in personal finance? Was there a moment? Was it through the MBA training? Was it something that you’ve always had an interest in that you’ve always self-taught yourself? Where does your passion and interest around personal finance come from?

[00:13:21] FM: Good question, Tim. And you and I spoke about that a little bit before the recording. It really has to go back to my mom. She passed away just this past April. I miss her every day. On 93 years of age. But she was a bookkeeper, Tim. And a different generation. But her high school education at Walton High School in the Bronx really put her in good stead for lifelong earning ability.

She reveled in telling us, children and grandchildren, the story of looking for – back in the old days, there was ads in newspapers. It was an ad for a Ford dealership. And back then, they only wanted a man. But she went and said I have the skills. And she got the job.

I learned that a young age that from mom, genetically, but how to manage your checkbook. How to manage finances. But also, kind of like you, you were saying your mom and dad put up envelopes on the refrigerator. We didn’t have that sophistication.

I’m the youngest of four. I have three older sisters. The other one is deceased. But we always have the ability to earn extra money. I would clean mom and dad’s car. Hey, if I need extra cash, you can go vacuum and clean their cars, clean the windows. And then we used to – maybe about a mile away, we grew up in a mountaintop in Orange County, New York, there was a convenience store at the bottom of the hill. But we would go buy candy and then resell it at a candy stand. I learned about the multiplier effect of money.

And then I worked in food service for seven years, Tim, on the New York State Thruway while I was going to community college. And you name it, I did it. I was a cashier. And then I worked in the office on the weekends when I was doing my community college studies. You learn that early.

And then off to MCPHS University, and mom and dad was very helpful. But I kind of ran out of spending money halfway through the year. We were at Emmanuel College, which was an all-girls Catholic college at the time, MCP, leased a dorm from them. I went off down the block to McDonald’s by Fenway Park and work to get some spending money.

[00:15:36] TU: Yeah. I love it.

[00:15:38] FM: Just had that drive and that initiative. But also, making sure I kept up academically as well. I think your question, it comes from genetics. It comes from a good mentor. And then also, the rewards of working and having goals. I’ve really admired our family pharmacist, Stanley Moroknek. I was an otitis media sufferer growing up. And he was just fantastic. I had a goal. And I needed the money. It’s, “Okay, I got to do the academics.” But it needs some spending money because I want to go to Fanueil Hall, or I want to go see a concert. That’s what I did, Tim.

[00:16:16] TU: We talked a little bit about before we recorded today that there’s some challenging times for new practitioners that are out there making this transition from a student pharmacist to the first decade of their career. The student loan debt is well known. We’ve talked about it extensively on the show. The numbers are somewhat mind boggling. North of $170,000 on average of student loan debt.

[00:16:39] FM: Oh, easy.

[00:16:40] TU: Many, may be higher, private education, longer pathways of education. We’ve seen somewhat of a flattening and stagnation of wages. We’re in a high inflationary period. Pharmacists, certainly still, relatively speaking, make a good income. But many folks may have a ceiling on that income. My question for you, as we think about the next generation of pharmacists and those that are listening, is there a piece of advice or two, Frank, that you would share now looking back 37 plus years of your career? Things that you learned along the way or words of wisdom that you wish you would have had early on that could be helpful to those that are in the front half of their career?

[00:17:19] FM: You have to look at self-help, Tim, in terms of your mental health and your physical health. You’ve got to take care of yourself first. But I think what is put me in good stead over the years is taking the opportunities for overtime. And also, the skill set. Though, here I am a hospital pharmacist, and then a hospital pharmacy manager. But there’s a small chain of independent pharmacies in North New Jersey. And I would add – I get a phone call during the day, “Hey, Frank, can you work tonight.” I would ask the younger generation, besides working 40 or 45 hours a week, whatever your primary job is. And if you have that debt, is to pick up additional shifts elsewhere.

I know as a hiring manager at St. Joseph’s Health and a short stint here at Allegheny Health Networks, it’s very difficult to find qualified, competent hospital pharmacists. If somebody’s working in community practice, pick up a hospital shift or two as a per diem pharmacist. And that’s one way you can make a transition to hospital pharmacy.

But what was nice about hospital pharmacy, I work shift work. And at St. Joseph’s, they were a little unique. My shifts were 6:30 to 3:00. I always had my – 90% of my evening is free. I could pick up if somebody called me and they needed coverage on one of the stores that night.

And funny enough, at St. Joseph’s Health, Monday nights were the biggest nights for call outs. 99% of time, I’d pick up extra shifts. And also, besides earning money, Tim, I’ve always driven my vehicles in excess of 100,000 miles. Even here I am today mostly retired, I am driving a Subaru that’s got 175,000 miles. Can we afford to go buy another car? Sure. But it’s the principle that matter. I don’t need that new flashy thing.

But also, it’s also putting money into the 401k, and making sure, at a minimum, you’re getting that match. So many institutions or corporations, you don’t have a traditional pension plan. St. Joseph’s Health, they had what was called the church plan. There were lawsuits. But come next year, I’ll be getting a small pension from them. They had switched to a 403b. As soon as they switched with that, they had grandfathered the pension plan. But I started putting money into that 403b.

And even despite the downturn in 2008, Tim, I did nothing. I let it ride. Because I believe in the stock market historically. Part of the conversation you and I talked about was it’s not what you earn. It’s also what you save. Try and live frugally.

And also, another way that I do that, another passion of mine, and that may be for a little bit of another segment of our discussion today, Tim, I had the opportunity at St. Joseph’s Health to present and lecture to corporations and community groups over 30 times on supplements and nutrition. Where that ties in terms of your own personal health and well-being, I would bring my own food to work.

Not only wasn’t that frugal and savings, but it was always available to me. I didn’t have to go to the cafeteria. I made sure that what I was getting was healthy. I never understood about hospital institutional cafeterias selling deep fried chicken and French fries. But they do.

[00:20:46] TU: They do. Well, and I think the frugality message there I think is really important. Maybe a word that my generation doesn’t love necessarily. But I think, frugality, it’s important to remember. It’s not just about the dollars and what we do with those dollars. Certainly, that’s very important, whether we’re paying down debt, or investing, or saving for the future. But it’s also about the momentum and the mindset.

Here you are nearing retirement. You’ve had a successful career. And you share that, after this interview, you’re going to be working on your Subaru, which is 170,000 miles plus. So, you can keep that thing going and not have to buy another car. And could you? As you mentioned, yes, you could. But it’s that mindset and that momentum that transcends any one financial decision, right? I always say it’s not just about the used car. It’s about the mindset with a used car, which then transcends your ability to save, your momentum to save, and the ability to move towards other financial goals.

One question I’d have for you, Frank, especially for pharmacists listening that are maybe in the latter part of their career, here we are in a very challenging, volatile time period of the market. You mentioned, you’re mostly retired, how are you viewing this time period? You’ve done all this work to accrue your assets leading up to retirement. And here we are in a very challenging time period. But you’ve always had this long-term view of investing. Just take us inside Frank’s brain in the moment as someone who’s nearing retirement and how you’re viewing this high volatility period as you’re approaching a time where you may need to draw upon those funds.

[00:22:21] FM: One point that is unique in my situation, Tim, that helps me a lot, my wife, Marge, is a retired public school business administrator for the state of New Jersey. And she continues to work. In fact, she’s doing CE today. But I have her health benefits. That affords some flexibility.

Do I get worried about the market? Yes. But I lived through the downturn in 2008. I have my 401k monies, my 403 monies, in lifestyle funds. As you go through time, they’re morphing more towards bonds. I’ve seen the growth in my retirement funds from 10, 15 years ago. And also, because I was in pharmaceutical sales, and I worked for GlaxoSmithKline, when I left their employ, I left my 401k monies there, because they pay – It’s a much bigger corporation. Lot more monies.

At some point, I will have to consolidate this. But a lot of the fees they’ve paid to manage those funds. That has allowed my money to grow. I think that the days of staying with an employer for 30 or 40 years is rare. I think for the younger pharmacist is, okay, don’t panic. Leave the money. And then at some point – it’s a little bit of a hassle sometimes to tie that money together to roll it over. But you don’t want to take that out.

If you need money –I can. And I looked before I started with Allegheny General Hospital last year, within 14, 10 miles of my house, I think there’s 14 independent pharmacies, Tim? And you’re looking at, from my knowledge, the first pharmacist in the history of the state of Pennsylvania, because of my perseverance and persistence to get his immunization licensed by reciprocity. They’ve never done that before. I would say to the younger generation, believe in yourself. Follow through. But it takes a lot of work.

I sent 30 pages of documentation to the board here in a pandemic. Okay, I didn’t get my education training for immunization. It was back in 2013. No, it’s not two years ago, like the board requires. But I’ve been immunizing up until then. I think tying in financially, and that long view outlook is that persistence and perseverance. Believing yourself. Taking care of yourself. Eating right. Getting exercise.

[00:24:53] TU: Yep. And letting the time value of money do its thing, right? You live through a couple of steps. And one thing I was sharing recently with some folks is I graduated in ’08. And for folks that have graduated somewhere around that time period, or since then, this is really the first test of that long-term view and philosophy that we talk about.

And it’s one thing to say it. It’s another thing to live it, especially for folks that have maybe been saving for 12, 13 years. You look at your portfolio, it could be down 20%, 25%, 30%. But to hear from folks such as yourselves that have lived through these dips. And we know the history. If we look at the market since the Great Depression, this is not unique. It’s happened before. The reasons are different. But this is not unique. And this is why we’ve got to have that long-term view of investing and make sure that we’re keeping that long-term view in mind.

[00:25:43] FM: I agree. I agree. And one thing we left out of there, and maybe that’s another segment, is also real estate.

[00:25:49] TU: Mm-hmm. Tell me more. Is that been a part of your journey?

[00:25:52] FM: It has been. Yeah, I’ve not been a real estate investor in the sense of some people could do it if you have the stomach for it. It’s just not my personality. But some people do get investment properties and rent out. But I’ve been a homeowner since 1986. And this is probably my fifth home. I don’t own the other homes. But the market long-term has been good. Because the current structure, it’s a little bit different especially living – Well, we lived in – Pennsylvania can be higher in taxes, but New Jersey certainly was one of the highest in the nation. And that limit would solve taxes. But getting that home equity over the years, and sweat equity.

For me, Tim, growing up in high school, I took power mechanics and woodworking. And I worked with my hands. And I find that relaxing. But now, gosh, the younger generation, don’t forget YouTube. You can learn how to hang a drape. You can learn how to do a minor Plumbing Repair, do those kinds of things. I would also suggest that the younger generation, when they can afford it, is to get into their own home.

And I kind of laugh, but I don’t want to laugh. Mortgage rates are at 5%, right?

[00:27:08] TU: That’s right.

[00:27:09] FM: But historically, my first home was like 13%.

[00:27:11] TU: Yeah. Perspective, right?

[00:27:13] FM: And our current home, Tim, we have a mortgage. We don’t need it. But it’s a 2.375%. We’re using somebody else’s money. You think of that time value of money, as you talked about, and how you deploy those assets, how you deploy your savings, how you deploy your long-term goals.

[00:27:34] TU: Frank, let me put myself in the shoes of a student on rotation with you, and you’re teaching me all these things, time value of money, and home appreciation, and equity in the home, and all the things long-term. And I hear all that. And I’m like, “Frank, that’s great. But I’ve got $200,000 in student loan debt. Homes are at crazy prices right now. Pharmacist income is relatively flat.” If we get tangible for a moment, it really comes down to we need to live off of less than we make so that we can create the cash flow to be able to allocate money towards these longer-term goals.

And so, what does that look like? I’m a new graduate. I’m a transitioning graduate. What are the principles that I’m putting in place that allow me to live that discipline lifestyle so I can live off of less than I make and I can ultimately try to really save and invest the difference?

[00:28:24] FM: Tim, I don’t think it’s dissimilar to high school education today. Nevermind college graduates and pharmacist graduates. They fill our heads with so much clinical knowledge, and it’s great, and it’s a value to the patients that we serve. But I don’t think the schools are doing a good job in terms of what is this tuition mean.

And when you’re going through, try and be frugal student. But now here, you graduate, and you said the average is $170,000 in debt? Well, how the heck am I going to get out of this debt? Well, you got to have a job. You get your primary job.

Also, do a time value analysis. You can go to bankrate.com. You can use Excel. And I’ve done that with my students that, “Okay, here’s your debt. What do you think the current interest rate is going to be? What’s your minimum payment going to be?” Nevermind how do I get rid of this debt?

And the students that I talked with, the schools have not done a good job of providing them with resources and information. They’re smart enough. Heck, hell, yeah. Yeah. We’re two percenters, Tim. Do you know what I mean by two percenters?

[00:29:29] TU: In terms of the 2% that are applying? Or what are you referring to?

[00:29:33] FM: No. Only about 2% of the US population has doctoral level degrees.

[00:29:38] TU: Oh, okay.

[00:29:39] FM: It’s probably evenly split between professional degrees like MD, PharmD, and PhDs. Let’s face it. You get through pharmacy school, they’re smart people. But they’ve just not gotten a sense. It’s like, “Oh my gosh.” And I think what I’ve done, and I think any graduating pharmacist can do, once you get that job, is hopefully you’re eligible for overtime. If not, you pick up extra shifts. Find another job. Maybe it’s outside of your passion or what you’re doing. But there’s usually – because there’s no benefits involved.

I know probably – I’m 99% sure, Tim. I go and throw my CV around within 10 miles of here, and somebody’s looking [inaudible 00:30:25]. I’ll pick it up.

[00:30:28] TU: Yup, absolutely.

[00:30:28] FM: Yeah. I wouldn’t say, “Okay, I got this debt. What’s my minimum payment? What’s my maximum payment?” Because that’s going to impede their ability to get a mortgage, to buy a car. Got to pay for benefits out of your paycheck, for health insurance. But also, if there’s a retirement plan, you want to make sure you maximize that. Because the time value of money, you graduate ’24, ‘25. And you’re going to retire. Let’s say they raise social security to 68. Oh, boy! The value of compounding that. And you could do that through easily on bankrate.com. If I put 50 bucks a paycheck, times 52 weeks, and do that over 30 or 40 years. But you need to – Yeah, I can do vancomycin dosing. But nobody’s taught me how to do this.

[00:31:20] TU: Yeah. No. It’s so true. And I think there’s a gap. We’ve been fortunate to partner with over 40 colleges and to do some personal finance education. Often, those are one-off sessions. But for several of them, we’ve seen individuals at the dean level that have really bought into, “Hey, we need to be doing this and doing this longitudinally for our students.”

And what I love hearing preceptors like yourself doing this, it needs to continue from the didactic curriculum to the experiential curriculum. And obviously, my hope is even post-graduation associations and others will pick up some of the education as well. And then we need to pass it on and pass it back, so that when we’re precepting students, we’re able to help them in their own journey.

And step number one is often just that awareness. You give the example of student loan debt and the calculator. And before we can put a plan into action, we have to know what we’re working with. And so, $170,000, as I’ve said on the show before through my own journey, that feels like Monopoly money. But when you look at it as a monthly payment, and what does this actually mean? Okay, this starts to become real. Now we can put a plan in place.

And we first have to accept that, yes, pharmacists might make a good six figure income, but you’re not taking home six figures, right? And this is simple math. We all know this. But students may not be thinking about that. Or what is the actual take home amount? And coming down a little bit off of the high of that, and then looking at what’s that going to mean in terms of bills, mortgages, student loan expenses. And really starting to work that budget so we can make sure we’re achieving those longer-term goals.

[00:32:54] FM: And I think, Tim, sometimes you look at that big figure of 170,000, you throw up your arm.

[00:32:59] TU: That’s right. Yup.

[00:33:01] FM: But so often, you got to slice that pie. Here’s the pie for food. Here’s the pie for the rent. Here’s the pie from a student loan. Okay, I can do this on my salary. But I don’t want to be paying this off for – I want to get a house. I want to go on vacation. How am I going to accelerate this? And I think the way to do it is you have no choice. I think you’ve really got to pick up an additional job. And that’s okay, because it’s a sprint. You get through that. Get that loan paid off. And then you can start doing what you really want to be doing.

[00:33:37] TU: Frank, one of the things you shared with me is that your daughter became debt-free at the age of 28. Your son, very small amount of debt. He’s an engineer for Tesla. And so, for me, as a father of four young boys running YFP, teaching them about personal finance is a really important topic. And I’ve tried a few different things with my kids. And it’s been interesting to see some of the behaviors and habits that they’re picking up on. As you look at now, parenting adult children, I would guess this journey never ends, right? In terms of teaching and –

[00:34:08] FM: Tim, it never ends. Parental love. And I just talked to my children last night, and it’s just you think and worry about them, and frighten them every day.

[00:34:19] TU: Yeah. What worked for you? As you look back on that journey, and teaching your kids about money, what were some of the strategies that you employed, or even things that you’re currently employing? For folks that are listening that maybe have younger children or perhaps will have children into the future, what are some of the strategies? What are some of the tips when it comes to teaching kids about money?

[00:34:40] FM: I think it starts off with, Tim, that my ex and I are both pharmacist and believe in higher education. And also, believe that idle hands are the devil’s hands. And there’s a cost associated with that. But we always kept our kids busy, even if we’re both working parents. It might be after care, during the school year, going to parochial school, and during the summer, going to enrichment camps. But that also tied in.

My daughter, she played town rec ball, high school basketball, AAU basketball. And she went on to the University of Massachusetts at Dartmouth for sculpture and graphic design. And she played division three basketball. And that was her passion. As parents, we didn’t expect her to get a part-time job.

But my son had the good fortune, from Montclair, New Jersey to get accepted. We lived in Cedar Grove, New Jersey. But by taking the train, the path into New York City every day, he got accepted into Xavier high school in Manhattan. And that’s a Jesuit school, all boys. But also, by getting accepted, he also got the Sons of St. Patrick’s scholarship. And that required him to work.

He worked at a mom and pop local gardening store all four years. Of course, I was beneficiary, because I got the shrubs for half price. I did some of my own landscaping. You know, sweat equity. Both children, they learned to work hard and be passionate through different avenues.

I’m wrestling my daughter being academically, getting scholarships, but also working hard. She was never a star player, but she really enjoyed it. And living in New Jersey at the time, both kids went to state schools out of state. You’re paying out of state tuition. We just buckled down. I picked up extra shifts so I didn’t have to eat pork and beans. But we, me and my ex, paid a majority of their education.

But you were talking – And this is not that long ago, Tim. It was $30,000 a year tuition, room and board. They both have cars. You’re talking $50,000 a year each. Marissa graduated with, I think, about $8,000 in loans. And she has paid those. And then Matthew had about 17,000. That was it, from Purdue University. And he’s down to 5000. And he’s in no rush, because there’s been no need.

It’s teaching your children the value of money younger, of hard work. Also, following your passions. Marissa is probably lifelong – She’s had some injuries. But she goes to the gym. I was a skier. My son took to snowboarding like a fish to water. And also, mountain biking. It’s not just teaching your kids the value of money and hard work, Tim. But it’s also introducing them to sports activities they can do lifelong and be healthy. Because not only just physically healthy, but mentally healthy. Both of my children, yeah, when I talk with them, they go to the gym, they do hiking. Matthew just loves being out in Reno, Nevada, because he’s an hour and a half from the Sierra Nevadas. And buys the epic pass and whatever passes, and every time he can when he’s not at work.

[00:38:10] TU: Tough life, huh? Tough life out there. Yeah. I love, really, the message of work. I think so often, for good reasons, we talk about strategies, like, 529 accounts, and saving, and scholarships, and cash flowing it, and all of those have value. But one of my hopes with my boys is, sure, we’d love to help where we can financially, whether that’s 529 accounts, whether that’s guiding them to scholarships, whether that’s cash flowing it. The expense so they’re not burdened with the debt. But also, there’s a lifelong lesson that comes from that hard work component, right? And that is something that transcends any type of transfer of here’s $10,000, from a 529 account. That’s great. But the lifelong lesson of the hard work that can come from that is going to have a much, much bigger return on investment. I think that’s a great reminder. And I’m grateful that you shared that.

Frank, my last question for you is I suspect we have many pharmacists listening that have students on rotation with them, residence on rotation with them, and perhaps have thought before, “How can I incorporate this topic of personal finance into the rotation? Into the learning experience?”

And I’ve actually had a handful of people email me over the past couple years that are doing some cool things around this topic. And so, my question is, for you, that others might be able to adopt or build upon, what have you done, practically speaking, with students around the topic of personal finance that others might be able to apply in their own situation?

[00:39:41] FM: What I’ve done – and I just did it with Jordan. As you know, I bought a gift. And we’ve got to get together. I’ve been so busy. But I did reach out to him. I do have your book. And within the next couple of weeks, him and I will get together. But one of the first things we did, I have no – Hey, when are you going to graduate? Depends what year they’re in. How much money do you have in loans? And what does that mean? Here’s that dollar figure. What are your plans for paying that back? How are you going to pay it back?

You introduce them to tools, whether through Excel or bankrate.com. And make a realistic, concrete example of what their payment is going to be when they graduate? And what jobs are available to them? And also, suggest, and try, and push, and prod, and share with them what I’ve done and what’s been successful for me.

And my mom, at a young age, she – They said, “Well, how are you going to be successful in college?” Well, I like nice things, Tim. Nice things doesn’t necessarily mean new, shiny things. But it means the ability – my days off, I want to go skiing. I want to go mountain biking. It’s putting concrete things to that student and saying, “How are you going to get there and follow your personal passions, as well as your professional passions?” But also, because it’s become so competitive, Tim, I also encourage the students to become board certified.

[00:41:10] TU: Yeah, another credential that can help there. And I love the angle of the passions, right? Because one of things we often talk about is that a good financial plan – Yes, we need to be taking care of our future self. Yes, we need to be planning for retirement. But we also have to make sure we’re living a rich life today, right? Throughout. There has to be this balance between the two.

And I think that connects and makes the topic come alive, especially as we’re talking about working with students, that when I talk about 401k accounts, 403b accounts, Roth IRAs, HSAs, insurance policies, those are tomorrow things in their mind.

[00:41:45] TU: That’s Greek. That’s Greek.

[00:41:46] TU: Right. Exactly. Yeah, it’s overwhelming. It’s confusing. But what’s right in front of them are student loans. I’m thinking about buying a home. There’re these things that I haven’t done for the last six or eight years when I’ve been in school that I’ve enjoyed that were hobbies or passions that I haven’t done that don’t want to do again. And so, being able to really lean into those areas that they can resonate with, that they can hook on to, I think can really help make the financial plan come alive.

And then from there, take those jumping points, right? To talk about time value of money. To talk about Roth IRAs, and 401k’s and HSAs. But we’ve got to often meet the learner where they are, and then take them on the journey towards the future as well.

[00:42:24] FM: Yeah, absolutely, Tim. Yeah, because they’re going to be with you for many weeks on rotation, for 8 weeks. You don’t need to bludgeon them over the head day one. But just bring that into the conversation.

[00:42:36] TU: Yeah. Well, it’s great. And one of the ideas we’ve had for a while that has just hit the backburner, among other things, is coming up with a preceptor toolkit of sorts around this topic. I’ve taught a personal finance course at a couple universities that we can use as a jumping point. But if there’s any preceptors out there listening that would like to join me and put something together that we could perhaps share with others, I suspect that we all have different resources or tools that would be helpful, shoot us an email, [email protected]. And we’d love to get a small group together to talk about this further.

Frank, thanks so much for taking time to come on the show to share your journey, the wisdom with the next generation of pharmacists. Really appreciate it. And your mindset towards paying it forward. Thank you so much.

[00:43:18] FM: Tim, thank you so much for having me. And I’m looking so forward to some people, pharmacists, viewing this and latching on to an idea. And your good hard work that you’re doing is just much needed in the profession. Hats off to you.

[00:43:32] TU: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

[OUTRO]

[00:43:34] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the date publish. Such information may contain forward-looking statements are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacists.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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