Tag: personal finance

YFP Co-Founders Tim Baker and Tim Ulbrich discuss essential negotiation skills inspired by Chris Voss’s book, Never Split The Difference, covering key strategies to boost your financial plan, mindset, and confidence.

Episode Summary

In this episode, YFP Co-Founders Tim Baker and Tim Ulbrich have a valuable conversation on negotiation—an essential skill that impacts not only finances but also mindset and confidence. Inspired by Chris Voss’s book, Never Split The Difference, Tim and Tim explore negotiation techniques drawn from Voss’s experience as a former FBI hostage negotiator and break down why negotiation is vital for your financial plan, key goals, and practical strategies for navigating each step.

About Today’s Guests

Tim Baker is the Co-Founder and Director of Financial Planning at Your Financial Pharmacist. Founded in 2015, YFP is a fee-only financial planning firm and connects with the YFP community of 12,000+ pharmacy professionals via the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast podcast, blog, website resources and speaking engagements. 

Tim attended the United States Military Academy majoring in International Relations and branching Armor. After his military career, he worked as a logistician with a major retailer and a construction company. After much deliberation, Tim decided to make a pivot in his career and joined a small independent financial planning firm in 2012. In 2016, he launched his own financial planning firm Script Financial and in 2019 merged with Your Financial Pharmacist. Tim now lives in Columbus, Ohio with his wife (Shay), three kids (Olivia, Liam and Zoe), and dog (Benji).

Tim Ulbrich is the Co-Founder and CEO of Your Financial Pharmacist. Founded in 2015, YFP is a fee-only financial planning firm and connects with the YFP community of 15,000+ pharmacy professionals via the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast podcast, blog, website resources and speaking engagements. To date, YFP has partnered with 75+ organizations to provide personal finance education.

Tim received his Doctor of Pharmacy degree from Ohio Northern University and completed postgraduate residency training at The Ohio State University. He spent 9 years on faculty at Northeast Ohio Medical University prior to joining Ohio State University College of Pharmacy in 2019 as Clinical Professor and Director of the Master’s in Health-System Pharmacy Administration Program.

Tim is the host of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast which has more than 1 million downloads. Tim is also the co-author of Seven Figure Pharmacist: How to Maximize Your Income, Eliminate Debt and Create Wealth. Tim has presented to over 200 pharmacy associations, colleges, and groups on various personal finance topics including debt management, investing, retirement planning, and financial well-being.

Key Points from the Episode

• Importance of Negotiation in Financial Planning [0:00]
• Introduction to Negotiation and Its Role in Financial Planning [1:23]
• The Process and Importance of Negotiation [6:45]
• Employer Expectations and Employee Responsibilities in Negotiation [13:07]
• Strategies for Effective Negotiation [17:09]
• Counteroffers and Leveraging Non-Salary Terms [32:18]
• Tools and Techniques for Negotiation [37:19]
• Applying Negotiation Strategies in Financial Planning [46:54]
• Conclusion and Final Thoughts [47:08]

Episode Highlights

“Negotiation is really a process of discovery. It really shouldn’t be viewed as a battle. It’s really a process of discovery.” – Tim Baker [5:58]

“I think there is often a sentiment and I know I’ve felt it myself, where, you know what, I’m glad to have a position. I’m glad to be making a good income. But that can be true, and you still can be a good person, and you still can negotiate and advocate for yourself and the value you bring to the organization.” – Tim Ulbrich [6:20]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

• Your Financial Pharmacist Book a Discovery Call
• Never Split the Difference: Negotiating as if Your Life Depended on It by Chris Voss
• SHRM (Society for Human Resource Management)
• Journal of Experimental Social Psychology
• YFP Book a Discovery Call
• YFP Disclaimer
• Ask a financial question to YFP
• Subscribe to the YFP Newsletter
• Tim Ulbrich on LinkedIn
• Tim Baker on LinkedIn
• YFP on Instagram
• YFP Facebook Group

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich  00:00

Hey everybody. Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the Yfp Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. Negotiation. That’s what we’re talking about today, an important skill that many of us were not taught, and one that can move the needle significantly, yes, financially, but also in terms of mindset and confidence. One of my favorite resources on this topic is the book never split the difference by Chris Voss. I first heard this book on a podcast interview several years ago where Chris was demonstrating his quote late night DJ voice, which is one of the fun techniques he describes in that book. Now, if you haven’t read the book before. In addition to listening to today’s episode, check it out and make sure to do the audio version. It’s fantastic and really drives home the examples used throughout. Chris is a former FBI international hostage negotiator who took what he learned from high stakes negotiation and brought it to us for everyday use. Now, considering that effective negotiation can have a big impact on your financial plan. This week, we’re hitting replay on an episode that Tim and I recorded back in August of 2020 during the show, we discussed why negotiation is important your financial plan, the goals of negotiation and tips and strategies for different parts of the negotiation process that you can implement in your own negotiation. Make sure to listen all the way through as I’m confident in saying, there will be a positive return on your time investment. One last thing, unlike traditional financial planning firms, our team of certified financial planners at Yfp is experience in helping our clients through negotiations, whether that be negotiating within an organization for a new position or to increase salary or for someone looking for a new job, if we can help with your negotiation, head on over your financial pharmacist.com click on book a discovery call so that we can learn more about your situation and see whether or not our services are the right fit for You. All right, let’s jump into our conversation on effective negotiation. Tim Baker, welcome back to the show.

Tim Baker  02:08

Yeah, happy to be here. How’s it going?

Tim Ulbrich  02:09

Tim, it’s going excited to talk negotiation something we discuss a lot, a lot in presentations, a lot. I know that you discuss with clients as a part of the financial plan, but we haven’t addressed it directly on the show before. So I’m excited that we get a chance to dig into this topic. And we know that negotiation can carry a lot of power, and can be used across the board, really, in life, right? Could be negotiating terms for a new or existing job, position, buying a car, buying a house, negotiating with your kids or spouse, kidding, not not kidding, as we’ll talk about here in a little bit, so we’re going to focus predominantly on salary negotiation, but really, these techniques can be applied to many areas of the financial plan and really life as a whole. So Tim, I know that for you, negotiation is a key piece of the financial plan, and you and our CFPs over at Yfp talk about negotiation in the context of financial planning, which I would say is probably not the norm of the financial planning industry and services. So let’s start with this. Why is negotiation such an important piece of the financial plan?

Tim Baker  03:14

Yeah, so I think you know, if we, if we look at why, if peace mission, you know why? If he’s mission is to empower pharmacists to achieve financial freedom. So I think the building blocks of that really is kind of what we do day in and day out with with clients at Yfp plan. And what I what I typically, or the way that we typically approach a financial plan, is we really want to help the client grow and protect their income, which is the lifeblood of the financial plan. Without income, nothing moves. But we know that probably more importantly than that is grow and protect the balance sheet, the net worth, which means increase in assets efficiently and decrease in liabilities efficiently and ultimately moving the net worth number in the right direction. So those are, you know, both quantitative things, but then qualitatively, we want to make sure that we’re keeping all the goals in mind. So grow and protect income and net worth while keep the goals in mind. So to me, that’s, that’s our jam, you know. So you know when I when I say, you know, when somebody asked me a question, like we do the ask a wife, pcfp, and I’m like, I always say, Well, it depends. A lot of it depends, really, on those, those foundational like, where are we at with the balance sheet, and where do we want to go? Meaning, what? What are our goals? What’s our why? What’s a, what’s the life plan? You know, what’s a wealthy life for you? And how can we support that with the financial plan? So to go back to your question, you know, my belief is that the income is a is a big part of that. And you know, what I found with working with many, many pharmacists is sometimes, and sometimes pharmacists are not just, you know, not great at advocating for themselves. You know, most of the people that I talk to, you know, when we talk about salary negotiation, they’re like, um. You know, I just thankful I have a job, and I’m in agreement with that. But, you know, sometimes a little bit of negotiation and having some of the skills that we’ll talk about today to better advocate for yourself is is important, and it’s in a lot of this stuff is not necessarily just for salary. It can be for a lot of different things. But to me, what I what I saw as a need here. You know, same thing, like most financial planners don’t walk, walk you through kind of home purchase and what that looks like, because most financial planners are working with people in their 50s, 60s and 70s. So a lot that was a need for a lot of our clients were like, Hey, Tim, I’m buying this house. I don’t really know where to start. So we, we, you know, provide some education and some recommendations and advice around that. So same thing with salary. It’s like I kept seeing like, well, maybe, you know, maybe I, you know, I took the job too quickly, or, you know, I didn’t advocate for myself. So that’s really where we want to provide some education and advice, again, to have a better, better position from it, from an income, income perspective, yeah. 

Tim Ulbrich  05:58

I think it’s a great tool to have in your tool bag, you know? And I think, as we’ll talk about here, you know, the goal is not to be an expert negotiator. There’s lots of resources that are out there that can help with this and make it tangible and practical, one of which will draw a lot of the information today. I know that you talk with clients, a resource I love, never split the difference by Chris Voss, but I’m glad you mentioned. You know, I think there is often a sentiment. I know I felt it myself, where, you know what, I’m glad to have a position. I’m glad to be making a good income. But that can be true, and you still can be a good person, and you still can negotiate and advocate for yourself and the value you bring to the organization. Yeah, so I hope folks will hear that and not, not necessarily think that negotiation is bad, and as we’ll talk about here in a moment, I think really can have a significant impact when you think about it as it relates to earnings over your career and what those additional earnings could mean. So Tim, break it down for us. What is negotiation? And really thinking further, why is it important?

Tim Baker  06:57

Yeah, so, so negotiation, you know, it’s really a process of discovery. You know, it really shouldn’t be viewed as as a battle. It’s really a process of discovery. It’s kind of that awkward conversation that you’re you should be obligated to have, because, you know, if you, you know, if you don’t want to advocate for yourself professionally, who will, and maybe you have a good mentor or something like that. But to me, the the negotiation again, is really to discover, you know, what, what you want, and kind of what you’re the counterpart you know, which might be a boss or a hiring manager or something like that. And it’s an it’s really important, because, you know, settling for a lower salary can have really major financial consequences, both both immediately and down the road. And you know, you you typically raises that you receive are typically based on a percentage of their salary. So we’re, hey, we’re going to give you a, you know, 3% raises here, a 5% raise if you start off with a salary that you’re not happy with. You know that then obviously, that’s, that’s a problem. Accrue less in retirement savings. So that TSP, that 401, K, 403, B, again, you typically are going to get some type of match in a lot of cases, and then you’re going to put a percent in. So again, that could potentially be lower, but it’s, it is. It’s not just about salary. It can be, you know, I think another mistake that sometimes people make is that they’ll say, oh, wow, I was making, you know, 125 and, you know, I’m taking a job that’s paying me 135 and they take a major step back on some of the non salary, things like benefits and flex scheduling and time off and things like that. But you know, you really want to make sure that the compensation package that you have, you know you’re happy with, because being overpaid, being underpaid, really can make you feel resentful over the long run. So you want to make sure that you’re, you know, again, you know, right now, we’re filming this in the midst of a pandemic, and you know the economy and the job market is tough, but you know, you still want to, you still want to advocate for yourself and make sure you’re getting the, you know, the best compensation package that that you can.

Tim Ulbrich  08:56

As we’ll talk about here in a little bit, I think If we frame this differently than maybe our understanding or preconceived beliefs. You know, you mentioned it’s not a battle, you know. I think the goal is that you’re trying to come to an agreement or an understanding. And as we’ll talk about here, many employers are likely expecting this, and that number, in terms of those that are expecting versus those that are actually engaging in the conversation, from an employee standpoint, is very different. So I think that might help give us confidence to be able to initiate some of those. And we’ll talk about strategies to do that. I do want to give one example, though. Tim, real quick, you mentioned, you know, obviously, if somebody earns less and they receive smaller raises, or they accrue less in retirement savings, that can have a significant impact. And and I went down the rabbit hole, prepping for this episode of just looking at a quick example of this, where you have two folks that, let’s say they both start working at the age of 28 they retire at their 65 so same starting point, same retirement age. Let’s assume they get a 3% cost of living adjustment every year for their career. Just to keep it simple, you. The only difference here is that one starts at 100k and one starts at 105k so because of either you know what, what they asked for negotiations, whatever be the case, one starts $5,000 greater than the other. And if you play this out, same starting age, same ending age, same cost of living adjustments, one starts at a higher point when it’s all said and done, one individual has about $300,000 more of earnings than the other. And this, of course, does not include differences that you’d also have, because a higher salary, if you have a match, that would increase, that would compound, that would grow, if you were to switch jobs, you’re at a better point of now negotiating from a higher salary. All other benefits that aren’t included. But the significance of the starting point, I think, is something to really look at those numbers that often where you start can inform where you’re going, not only from cost of living adjustments, but also future employment, right? So we know that where you start, if you get a 3% raise, it’s of course, gonna be based off that number. You decide to leave that employer and you go to another one, what do they ask you? How much did you make? You’re using that number. So that starting point is so critical, and I hope that new practitioners might even find some confidence in that, to be able to engage in discussions knowing how significant those numbers can be over a career. So in that one example, that starting point is a difference of about $300,000 Crazy, right? 

Tim Baker  11:24

When you look at over a long time period, yeah, it’s not, it’s nuts. And I’d pay the devil’s advocate, you know, on the other side of that is that, you know, again, so much, just like everything else with with the financial plan, you can’t look at it, you know, in a vacuum, we’ve had clients, yeah, take a lot less money, and really was because of the the student loans, and how that would affect their strategy in terms of forgiveness and things like that. So, yeah, it is multifactorial. It’s definitely something that it should really be examined. And I think again, when you look at the overall context of the financial plan, but it to your point, Tim, that that start in salary, and really you know how you negotiate throughout the course of your career is going to be utterly important. And you know, again, what we say is, with, you know, we, we kind of downplay the income, because I think, you know, so much of what’s kind of taught us, like, oh, six figure salary, you’re you’ll be okay. And that’s not true. But then, you know it is true that it is the lifeblood of the financial plan. So I think if you have a plan and you’re intentional with what you’re doing, that’s where you can really start, you know, making moves with regard to your financial outlook,

Tim Ulbrich  12:26

yeah, and I’m glad you know you said that about salary shouldn’t be looked at in a silo. I mean, just to further that point, you you’ve alluded to it already, these numbers don’t matter. If there’s other variables that are non monetary that matter more, right? Whether that be time off or satisfaction in the workplace, opportunities that you have feelings that will come. I mean, the whole list of things that you can’t necessarily put a number to. I mean, I would argue if, if those are really important, you’ve got to weigh those against, you know, whatever this number would be, and there’s a certain point where the difference in money is it worth it? You know, if there’s other variables that are involved, which, which, usually there are, hopefully we can get both right salary and and non salary items. Yes. So interesting stats about negotiation. I’ve heard you present before on this topic, but I’d like you to share with our audience in terms of managers that are expecting hires to negotiate, versus those that do talk us through some of those as I think it will help us frame and maybe change our perception on employers expecting it and our willingness to engage in these conversations.

Tim Baker  13:34

Yeah, and I really need to cite, to cite this one. And I believe, I believe this first stat comes from Sherm, which is the Society for Human Resource Management. So I think this is, like the biggest association for, like HR and human resource personnel in the country. And the stat that that I use is that, you know, 99% of hiring managers expect prospective hires to negotiate. So if you think about that, you know, and you know, the overwhelming majority expect, you know, you the perspective hire to negotiate, and they build their initial offers as such. So, you know, the example, you know, I did the clients, is like, hey, you know, we have, you know, we have a position that we could pay, you anywhere from you know, 110,000 to 130,000 knowing that you know, Tim, if I’m offering this job to you, knowing that you’re probably going to negotiate with me, I’m going to offer it to you for 110 knowing that I have a little bit of wiggle room if you kind of come back with a counter offer. But what a lot of a lot of my clients, you know, or people do that I talk with is they’ll just say, Yes, I found a job. Crappy, crappy job market, you know, happy to get started, ready to get started. And there’s and they’re, they’re either, you know, overly enthusiastic to accept a job, or they’re just afraid that a little bit of negotiation would would, you know, hurt their, yeah, you know, hurt their outlook. So. So with that in mind is that you, you know the the offers, I think, are built in a way that you know you should, you should be negotiating and trying to, again, advocate for yourself.

Tim Ulbrich  15:09

Yeah, and so if people are presenting positions often, you know, with with a range and salary, expecting negotiation, I hope that gives folks, you know, some confidence and okay, that’s probably expected, and maybe shift some of the perception away from this whole thing could fall apart, which it could right at any given point in time, especially depending on the way you conduct yourself in that negotiation, which I think is really, really important to consider. But I think what we want to try to avoid, Tim, back to a comment you made earlier, is any resentment, right as well. I mean, if we think about this from a relationship standpoint. We want the employee to feel valued, and we want the employer to have a shot at retaining this individual long term, right? So it’s a two way, two way relationship,

Tim Baker  15:50

And it kind of, it kind of comes up to where, you know, we were talking about, what is, you know, what is the goal of negotiation? And really, the goal of negotiation is, is to come to some type of agreement. Yeah, the problem, the problem with that is, is that people are involved in this, and we as people are emotional beings. So if we feel like that, we’re being, you know, we’re treated unfairly, or we don’t feel safe and secure, or if we’re not in control of the conversation, you know, our emotions can get the best of us. So that’s that’s that’s important. So there again, there’s some techniques that you can, you know, utilize to kind of mitigate that. But you know, to allude to your point about, you know, negotiating the fear to kind of, you know, potentially mess up the deal. You know, there’s a stat that says 32% don’t negotiate because they’re too worried about losing the job offer. Yeah, I know Tim, like we can attest to this, because, you know, with our growth at Yfp, we’ve, we’ve definitely done some, some human resource in use that as a verb, and hiring and things like that of late. And I gotta say that, you know, the I think that some of this can be unfounded, just because there’s, there’s just so much, you know, blood, sweat and tears that goes into fire, you know, to fight finding the right people, to kind of surround, you know, yourself with, and bring into an organization that, to me, a little bit of back and forth is not going to ultimately lose the job. So typically, most, most jobs, there’s, you know, interview, you know, obviously there’s, there’s an application process, there’s interviews, there’s second interviews, there’s maybe on site visits, there’s kind of, you know, looking at all the candidates and then extending offers. If you get to that, that offer stage, you’re, you’re you’re pretty, you know, they’ve identified you as they’re the, you’re the person that they want. So, you know, sometimes a little bit of back and forth is not going to, you know, derail any such deal. So that’s, it’s really, really important to understand that, yeah, and

Tim Ulbrich  17:45

As the employer, I mean, we’ve all heard about the costs and statistics around retention. So as an employer, when I find that person, I want to retain them. That’s my that’s my goal. Right now, I want to find good talent on a retain good talent. So I certainly don’t want somebody being resentful about, you know, the work that they’re doing, the pay that they have. And so I think if we can work some of that out before beginning and come to an agreement, it’s a good fit for us, good fit for them, I think it’s also going to help the benefit of the, hopefully the long term relationship of that engagement. So it’s one thing to say, we should be doing it. It’s another thing to say, Well, how do we actually do this? Well, you know, what are some tips and tricks for negotiation? So I thought it’d be helpful if we could walk through some of the stages of negotiation, and through those stages we can talk as well as beyond that, what are some actual strategies to negotiation? Again, another shout out to never split the difference by Chris Voss. I think he does an awesome job of teaching these strategies in a way that really helped them come alive and are in our memorable Yeah. So, Tim, let’s talk about the the first stage, the interview stage, and what are some strategies that that those listening can take when it comes to negotiation in this stage.

Tim Baker  18:56

Yeah? So, so I kind of, when I, when I present, you know, these concepts to a client. I kind of said that the, you know, the four stages of the of negotiation are fairly, are fairly vanilla, you know. And the first one is the, you know, that interview. So when you get that interview, you know, what I say is, you know, typically you want to talk, talk less, listen more and learn more. Typically, the person that is talking the most is, is, is not in control. The conversation, the one that’s listening and answering, asking good questions, is in control. And I kind of, I kind of think back to, you know, some of our recent hires, and, you know, the people that we identify as, like, top candidates, I’m like, Man, their interviews went really well. And when I actually think, think back and slow down, it’s, it’s really, I think that they went really well, because there’s, it’s really that person asking good questions, and then, and then me just talking, and and, and that’s, and that’s like the perception, so in that, in that case, like the, you know, the candidate was asking us good questions, and we’re like, yeah, these, this was a great interview, because I’d like to hear myself talk, or I just get really excited. About, you know, what we’re doing at Yfp. So I think if you can really, you know, focus on your counterpart, focus on the organization, you know, whether it’s the hospital or whatever, whatever it is, and learn, and then the, you know, and then really pivot to the value that you bring. I think that’s going to be important, you know, most important. So, you know, understanding, you know, what, what some of their maybe pain points are, whether it’s retention or, you know, maybe some type of, you know, care issue, or whatever that may be, you know, you can kind of use that to your advantage as you’re as you’re kind of going through the different, you know, stages of negotiation, but the more that the other person talks, you know, the better. I would say, you know, in the interview stage, you know, one of the things that often comes up, you know, that can come off fairly soon, is the question about salary. And, you know, sometimes that is, you know, it’s kind of like a time saving. So it’s a Hey, Tim, you know, what are you looking for in salary? If you throw out a number that’s way too high, like, I’m not even gonna, you know, waste my time. And what I tell clients is, like you typically, you want to, and we’ll talk about anchoring. You really want to, do? You really want to avoid, you know, throwing, throwing a number out and for a variety of reasons. So one of the deflections you could use is, hey, I appreciate the question, but I’m really trying to figure out if I’d be a good fit for your organization. You know, we let’s talk about, you know, negotiate, or let’s talk about salary when the time comes. Or the other, the other piece of it is, it’s just, you are not, you’re not in the business of offering yourself a job. And what I mean by that is it’s, it’s their job to basically provide an offer. So, you know, hey, my current employer, you know, doesn’t really allow me to kind of reveal that kind of information. What did you have in mind? Or we know that pharmacy is a small business, and I’m sure your budget is, you know, is reasonable. What did you have in mind? So at the end of the day, it’s, it’s their job to extend the offer, not you, to kind of negotiate your against yourself, which can happen, you know, I had a, I had a, we signed on a client here at Yfp planning yesterday, and we were talking about negotiation. I think it was kind of had to do with that tax issue. And, you know, he he basically said this is what he was looking for. And then when he got into the organization, I think he saw the number that was budgeted for, and it was a lot more so. Again, if you can deflect that, and I tell a story, when I first got out of the army, I kind of knew this. But when I first got out of the army, I was interviewing for jobs, you know, I was in an interview, and I deflect it. And I think the guy asked me again, and I deflect it. I think he asked me for, like, maybe that asked me for like, four times, and I just wound up giving him a range that was, like, obnoxious, 100 to 200,000 or something like that. But to me, you know, that in the interview didn’t go, go well after that. But to me, it was, like, it was more about, you know, clearing the slate instead of actually learning more about me and seeing if I was a good fit. So you never want to lie about your current style. If they ask about your current style, you never want to lie, but you definitely want to deflect and move to things of like, okay, can I potentially be a good fit for your organization? And then go from there? Yeah. And

Tim Ulbrich  22:55

I think deflection takes practice, right? I don’t think that comes down to many of us. Totally, yeah. Yeah, this, this reminds me. So, you know, talk less, listen more for for any Hamilton folks we have out there, which is playing 24/7 in my house these days, the soundtrack, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna sing right now, but talk less. Smile, smile more. Don’t let them know what you’re against or what you’re for. So I think that’s a good, good connection there to the interview stage. So next, hopefully comes the good news. Company wants to hire you makes an offer. So Tim, talk us through this stage. What? What should we be remembering when we actually have an offer on the table? Yeah, so

Tim Baker  23:30

I think you definitely want to be appreciative and thankful again when, when a company gets to a point where they’re extending you an offer, that’s, that’s, that’s huge. I remember when I got, again, my first offer out of out of the Army, because, again, you don’t really have a choice when you’re in the army. Well, I guess you do have a choice, but you know, they’re not like, here’s a here’s a written offer for your employment in this platoon somewhere in Iraq. But I remember getting the first offer. I’m like, Man, this is awesome. Shows your salary and the benefits and things like that. So you want to be appreciable and thankful you don’t appreciative and thankful. You don’t want to be you want to be excited, but not too over excited. So you don’t want to appear to be desperate. What I tell clients, I think the biggest piece here is make sure you get it in, write in, yes, and I have a, you know, a story that I tell him, because if it’s not in writing and what essentially says it didn’t, didn’t happen. So again, using some personal experience here, you know, first job out of the army, I had negotiated, you know, basically an extra week of vacation because I didn’t want to take a step back in that regard. And I got the offer, and the extra week wasn’t there. So I talked to my, my, you know, my future boss, about it, and he said, You know what, I don’t want to go back to headquarters and, you know, in ruffle some feathers. So why don’t we just take care of that on site here, and this was the job I had in Columbus, Ohio. And I said, Yeah, okay, I don’t really want to, you know, ruffle feathers either. The problem with that was when he got replaced, when he was terminated, eight months later, that currency burned up fairly quickly. Be so I didn’t have that, you know, that that extra week of vacation. So, you know, if it’s not written down, it never happens. So you want to make sure that, you know, you get it in, right in, and really go over that written offer extensively. So some employers, they’ll, they’ll extend an offer, and they want to, you know, a decision right away. I would walk away from that, you know, to me, a job change, or, you know, something of that magnitude, you know, I think warrants a 24 if not a 48 probably a minimum of 48 hour, you know, time frame for for you to kind of mold over and this is typically where I kind of, I come in and help clients, because they’ll say, Hey, Tim, I got this offer. What do you think? And we go through it, and we look at benefits, and we look at, you know, the total compensation package and things like that. But, you know, you want to, you know, ask for, you know, ask for a time, you know, some time to review everything and then agreed, you know, definitely adhere to the agree, agreed upon deadline to basically provide, you know, an answer or counteroffer, or, you know, whatever, whatever the next step is for you.

Tim Ulbrich  26:01

Yeah, and I think too, the advice to get it in writing helps buy you time. You know, I think you asked for it anyways. And I think the way you approach this conversation, you’re setting up the counter offer, right? So the tone that you’re using, it’s not about being arrogant here. It’s not about, you know, acting like you’re not excited at all. I think you can strike that balance between you’re appreciative, you’re thankful. You know, you’re continuing to assess if it’s a good fit for you and the organization you want. Some time you want it in writing, and you’re beginning to set the stage. And I think human behavior, right? Says if, if, if something is either on the table or pulled away slightly, the other party wants it a little bit more, right? So yes, if I’m the employer, and I really want someone, and I’m all excited about the offer, and I’m hoping they’re gonna say yes, and they say, Hey, I’m really, really thankful for the offer. I’m excited about what you guys are doing. I need some time to think about X, Y and Z, or, you know, I’m really thinking through X, Y or Z, like, all of a sudden, that makes me want them more, you know. So I think there’s, there’s value in in setting up, what is that, that counter offer? So talk to us about the counteroffer. Tim, break it down in some strategies to think about in this portion. Yeah.

Tim Baker  27:10

So, you know, the the counter offer is, I would say, you know, the majority of the time you should counter in some way. I think you’re expected to make a counter. And again, we kind of back that up with some stats. But you also, you need to know when, you know when not to kind of continue to go back to negotiating table, or when, when you’re asking or over asking. So, you know, I think research is going to be a good, you know, part of that, and I, what I tell clients is like, I can give them a very nice, non scientific I’ve worked with so many pharmacists that I can kind of say, oh, that sounds low, you know, in this for community pharmacy or industry, or whatever, you know, hospital in this area. So, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s your network, which could be someone like me, it could be a call, you know, colleagues. But it could also be things like Glassdoor, indeed, salary.com, so you want to make sure that your, you know, your offer, your counter offer, it is backed up in some type of, you know, fact, and really, you know knowing how to maximize your leverage. So if you are you know if you do receive more than one substantial offer, you know, you know from multiple employers, negotiating may be appropriate if the two positions are comparable and then, or if you have tangible evidence that the salary is too low, you know you have a strong position to negotiate. So I had a client that knew that new, newly hired pharmacists were being paid more than than she was, and she, you know, she had the evidence to show that. And basically they went back and did a nice adjustment. So, but again, I think as you go through the way that we kind of do this, you know, with clients, is we kind of go through the the entire letter, and, you know, the benefits and and I basically just highlight things and have questions about, you know, match or vacation time or salary and things like that. And then we start constructing it from there. So if you look at again, the thing where most people will start a salary is, you know, you really want to give. When you counter, you really want to give a salary range, rather than, like a number. So what I say is, if, a if, if, if, if you say, Hey, Tim, I really want to make $100,000 I kind of said it’s almost like the big bad wolf that blows the house down like all those zeros is, it’s not, it’s there’s no substance to that. But if you said, Hey, I really want to make $105,985 the the Journal of experimental social psychology says that using a precise number instead of a rounded number gives it a more potent anchor. So your homework, right? Yeah, you know, you know what you what, you know, what you’re worth, you know, what the positions worth? It’s given the appearance of research. So I kind of like, you know, it’s kind of like the gap the Zach Galifianakis, me, that has all the equations that are flowing. It’s kind of like that. But the the $100,000 you can just blow that house over. So, and I think so. So once you figure out that number, then you kind of want to. Change it so, you know, they say, if you give a range of, you know, you know, of a salary, then it opens up room for discussion, and shows the employer that you have flexibility, and it gives you some cushion. In case, you know, you think that you’re asking for a little bit too high so that’s, that’s going to be, that’s going to be really, really important is, is that to provide kind of precise numbers in in a range, and, oh, by the way, I want to be kind of paid at the upper, upper echelon of that. So

Tim Ulbrich  30:28

real quick on that you mentioned before, the concept of anchoring. I want to spend some time here as you’re talking about a range. So dig into that further. What that means in terms of, if I’m given a range, how does anchoring fit into that. Yeah.

Tim Baker  30:41

So, you know, we kind of talk about this more more when we kind of talk some about the tools and the behavior of negotiation, but the rain. So when we talk about, like anchoring, so anchoring is actually it’s a bias. So anchor and bias describes the common tendency to give too much weight to the first number. So again, if we’re, if we if we can, if I can, if can, have invite the listener to imagine an equation, and the equation is five times four times three times two times one, and that’s in your mind’s eye. And then you clear the slate, and now you imagine this equation one times two times three times four times five. Now, if I show the average person, and I just flash that number up, the first number that start, you know the first equation that starts with five and the second equation that starts with one, we know that those things equal, the same thing, but in the first equation, we see the five first. So it creates this anchor, creates this belief in us that that number is actually higher. Yeah. So, so the the idea of anchoring is typically that that number that we see really is a has a major influence. That first number is a major influence of where the negotiation goes. So you can kind of get into the whole idea of you know, factor in your knowledge of the zone of possible agreement, which is often called Zopa. So that’s the range of options that should be acceptable for both sides, and then kind of assessing, you know, your side of that, and then your your other parties anchor on that. So there’s, there’s lots of things that kind of going into anchoring, but you know, we, you know, we did this recently with a with a client, where I think they were offered somewhere in like the 110 112 area. And she’s like, you know, I really want to get paid closer to, like 117 118 so we, we basically in the counter offer. We said, hey, you know that, thanks for the offer. And we did something called an accusation on it, which we can talk about in a second. But thanks for the counter offer. But, you know, I’m really looking to make between, you know, I think we said something like 116 five, you know, 98 to, you know, all the way up into the 120s and it actually brought her up to, I think she was just 117 change actually brought her up closer to that 18. So using that range and kind of that, that range as an as a good anchoring position to help, help the negotiation. So there’s lots of different things that kind of go into anchor, in terms of extreme anchoring, and a lot of that stuff that they talk about in the book. But again, that’s kind of goes back to that first number being thrown out there can be really, really integral. And again, when you couple that on top of, hey, it’s, it’s their job to make you an offer, not the, not the other way around. You have to really learn how to deflect that and and know you know how to position, you know, position yourself in those negotiations. But that’s really the counteroffer. And what I would say to kind of just wrap up the counter offer is embrace the silence. Yeah, so Tim, there’s silence there. And I’m like, I want to, I want to feel the voice. And I do this with with clients, when we talk about, like mirroring and things like that, like people are uncomfortable with silence. And you know what he talks about in the book, which I would 100% this is really kind of a tip of the cat to Chris Voss in his book, which I love, I read probably at least once a year, where he talks about embracing the silence. We as people are conditioned to feel silences. So you know, he talks about sometimes people will, you know, negotiate against themselves. If you just sit there and you say, Uh huh, that’s interesting. And then in the in the counters, just be pleasantly persistent on the non salary terms, which can be both subjective and objective in terms of what you’re looking for in that position, yeah. And I

Tim Ulbrich  34:19

want to make sure we don’t lose that. You know, we’re talking a lot about salary. But again, as we mentioned at the beginning, really try to not only understand but but fit what’s the value of those non salary terms. So this could be everything from, you know, paid time off to, obviously, other benefits, whether that be health or retirement. This, of course, could be called culture of the organization, whether it’s that specific site, the broader organization, opportunities for mentorship.

Tim Baker  34:48

Yep, mentorship, yes, yes, all that. 

Tim Ulbrich  34:51

I think what you hear from folks, I know I felt in my own personal career, with each year that goes on, I value salary, but salary means less than those other. Things mean more. And so as you’re looking at, let’s just say two offers is one example. Let’s say they’re 5000 apart. Like, I’m not saying you give on salary, but how do you factor in these other variables?

Tim Baker  35:10

Yeah, well, and I think too, and I’ll this is kind of, you know, kind of next level with this. And I’ll give you some examples to cite it. I think another, thing to potentially do when you when you are countering and when you’re shifting to some of the maybe the non salary stuff is really took a hard look at your potential employer, or even your current employer, if this is a you know, if you’re an incumbent and you’re and you’re being reviewed and you’re just advocated for a better compensation package, is look at the company’s mission and values. Yeah. So the example I give is like, when we, when we, when Shay and I got pregnant with Liam, you know, she didn’t, she didn’t have a, you know, a maternity leave benefit, and when she was being reviewed, we kind of, you know, invoked the company. And I think it’s like work life balance and things like that. And we’re like, Well, how can you say that and not back that up? And again, we do it. We did it tactfully. And because you’re almost like, you’re almost like, negotiating against yourself, right? So I present this to clients like the Spider Man meme, whether you know, two spider mans are pointing at each other, and she was able to negotiate a better you know, I’m attorney, and it actually, and you we look at us, you know? And I, you know, I give these, one of our values is encourage growth and development, you know. So if an employee says, Hey, and they make a case that I really want to do this, and, you know, it’s almost like we’re negotiating against ourselves. So I think, if you can one, I think it shows, again, the the research and that you’re really interested and plugged into what the organization is doing. But then I think you, you’re, you’re leveraging the the company against itself in some ways, because you’re almost, you know, negotiating against, well, yeah, we put these on the wall as something that we believe in, but we’re not going to support it. Or, you know, so or, you know, at the very least, it plants a seed, right? And that’s what I that’s what I say sometimes with clients, you know, we do strike out. We don’t, you know, it’s like, it’s, it is hard to move the needle and sometimes, but at least one, we’ve got an iteration under our belts where we are negotiation. And two, we’ve planted a seed with that employer, you know, assuming that they took the job anyway, that says, Okay, these are things that are kind of important to me that we’re going to talk about again when we get and things like that. So I think that’s huge.

Tim Ulbrich  37:18

Good stuff. So let’s talk about some tools that we can use for negotiation, and again, many of these are covered in more detail in the book and other resources, which we’ll link to in the show notes. I just want to hit on a few of these. Let’s talk about mirroring accusation audits and the importance of getting a that’s right while you’re in these conversations. And we’ll leave our listeners to dig deeper in some of the other areas. So talk to us about mirroring. What is it? And kind of give us the example and strategies of mirroring.

Tim Baker  37:49

Yeah. And I would actually, Tim, what I would do is I would actually back up, because I think one of the, I think probably one of the most important tools that that are there, I think, is, is the calibrated questions. That’s one of the first things that he talked Yeah. And the reason so, what is a calibrated question? So a calibrated question is a question with really no fixed answer that gives the illusion of control. So the answer, however, is kind of constrained by that question, and you, the person that’s asking the question, has control of the conversation. So I give the example. You know, when we, when we moved into our our house after we renovated it. So brand new house, I walk into my daughter’s room. I think it was four. She was four at the time, and she’s coloring on the the wall in red, red, red crown. And I’m from, I’m from Jersey. So I say crown, not crayon. So she’s, and I, and I look at her, and I say, Olivia, why are, why are you doing that? And she sees how, like, upset I am and mad, or, you know, and she just starts crying. And there’s no there’s no negotiation from there. There’s negotiation over if, there’s no exchange of information. So in an alternate reality, in an alternate reality, what I should have done instead. Olivia, what? What caused you to do that? So you’re basically blasting instead of why is, why is very accusatory. You’re like, you know, the how and the what questions are good so, and of course, she would say, well, Daddy, I ran out of paper, so the walls the next best thing. So the use of, the use of, and having these calibrated questions in your back pocket, I think, again, buys you some time. And really, I think, frames the conversation with your counterpart well. So using words like how and what, and avoiding things like why, when, who, so you know, what about this works. Doesn’t work for you. How can we make this better for us? How you know? How do you want to proceed? How can we solve this problem? What’s the biggest challenge you face? These are all how does this look to you? These are all calibrated questions that again, as you’re kind of going back and forth, you can kind of lean on so have good how and what questions to kind of answer the question about mirroring. As you’re asking these questions, you’re mirroring. Counterpart. So what mirror in the scientific term is called ISO praxism, but he defines this as the Real Life Jedi mind trick. This causes vomiting of information, is what he says. So you know, these are not the droids you’re looking for. So what, what you essentially do is you, you repeat back the last one to three words, or the critical words of your counterpart sentence, your counterpart sentence. So this is me mirroring myself. Yeah. Well, you want to repeat back because you want to, you want them to reveal more information, and you want to build rapport and have that curiosity of kind of what is, what is the other person thinking? So you can again, come to come to an agreement, come to an agreement. Yeah. So you at the end of the day, the purpose. So this is mirror, and so I’ll show you a funny story. The you know, I do. I practice this on my wife, sometimes who does not have a problem speaking, but sometimes with counterpoint listening, by the way. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I’ll probably be in trouble. But so I basically just, you know, for the you know, for conversation, just just mirror back exactly what she’s saying. And you can do this physically. You can cross your legs or your arms, or, you know, whatever that looks like, but, but when he talks about more is with words, and, you know, I’ll basically just mirror back my wife and she, at the end of the conversation, she’ll say something like, Man, I feel like you really, like, listen to me. And I laugh about that, because I’m just really repeating back. But if you think about it, I did, because for you to be able to do that, you really do have to listen so, so mirroring again, if you’re just repeating back, you really start to uncover more of what your counterpart is thinking. Because often, like, what comes out of our mouth, you know, the first or even second time is just smoke, you know, so really uncovering that one of the things he talks about is, you know, is labeling where, you know, this is kind of described as the method of validating one’s emotion by acknowledging it. So it’s, it seems like you’re really concerned about patient care. It seems like you’re really concerned about the organization’s retention of talent. So what you’re doing is that you’re using neutral statements that don’t involve the use of I or we, so it’s not necessarily accusatory, and then you are, you know, same with the same with the mirror. You really want to not step on your mirror. You want to not step on your label and really invite the other person to say, Yeah, I’m just really frustrated by this or that. So labeling is really important to basically diffuse the power then the negative emotion and really allow you to remain neutral and kind of find out more about that. So that’s super important, yeah.

Tim Ulbrich  42:39

And I think with both of those, Tim, as you’re talking, it connects well back to what we, we mentioned earlier, of of talk less, listen more like you’re Yeah, you’re really getting more information out, right from from a situation that can be guarded. You know, people are trying to be guarded. And I think more information could lead, hopefully, to a more fruitful negotiation. What about the accusation audit?

Tim Baker  42:59

Yeah. So the accusation audit is, um, is it’s one of my favorites. Kind of same, same with calibrated questions. I typically will tell clients, I’m like, Hey, if you don’t, you know, if you don’t learn anything from this, I would say, have some calibrated questions in your back pocket and have a good accusation audit at the Reddit at the ready. And we typically would, typically will use the accusation audit to kind of frame up a counter offer. So, you know, it kind of, it kind of, so, so what? Before I give you the example, the accusation audit is a technique that’s used to identify and labor label, probably like, the worst thing that your counterpart could say about it. So these, this is all the, like, the head trash that’s kind of going on, yes, what of why? I don’t want, don’t want to negotiate. It’s like, Ah, they’re gonna think that, you know, I’m over asking, or I’m greedy, like all those things are that you’re, you’re thinking, so you’re really, you’re really just pointing to the elephant in the room, and you’re just trying to take this thing out and really let the air out of the room, you know, where a lot of people just get so nervous about this. So a good accusation audit is, Hey, Tim, I really appreciate the offer of, you know, $100,000 you know, to work, you know to work with your you know, with your organization. You’re probably gonna think that I’m the greediest person on planet Earth, but I was really looking for this to that, or great line, great. Or you’re, or you’re probably thinking that I’m gonna, I’m asking way too much, or you’re probably thinking that I’m way under qualified for this position, but here’s what I’m thinking. So you’re so again, like, no. Tim, right, right? So when someone says that to me, I’m like, No, I don’t think that. And what often happens, and again, this, this, clients have told me this, what often happens is that the person you know, the counterpart that they’re working with, like, they’re they, they’re recruited as, like, you know, one person said one client was like, Oh, we’re gonna find you more money. We’re gonna figure it out. So they like, you know. So when someone says that to you, you know, just think about how you would feel, you know, I don’t think that at all. And then it just kind of lets the the air out of the room. So you basically preface your counter offer with like, the. The worst things that they could say about about you, and then they typically say that’s not, that’s not true at all. So I love the accusation on it’s so simple, it’s kind of easy to remember. And I think it’s just, it just lays, I think, the groundwork for just great conversation and hopefully resolution.

Tim Ulbrich  45:16

That’s awesome. And then let’s wrap up with a goal of getting to a, that’s right. I remember when I was listening to interview with Chris Voss, this is a part that I heard, and I thought, Wow, that’s so powerful. If you can get in the midst of this negotiation, if we can get to a, yeah, that’s right, the impact that that could happen in the outcome.

Tim Baker  45:33

So, so he kind of talks about it like, you know, kind of put in all of these different tools together, so it’s, um, you know, mirroring and labeling and kind of, you know, using, I think, what he calls minimal encouragements of, uh huh, I see, kind of paraphrasing back what you hear from your from your counterpart, and then really wait for it’s like, Hey, did I get that? Did I get that right? Or am I tracking and what you’re really looking for is that that’s right. And he said, that’s even better than than a yes. So, like, one of the examples I give is, you know, when, when I speak with prospective clients, you know, we’re talking about, like my student loans and my investment portfolio and my, you know, I’m not doing real budgeting, and, you know, I got sold a life insurance policy that I think isn’t great for me. And so we go through all these different parts of the financial plan, and I basically am summarizing back what, you know, what they’re saying, and I say, you know, at the end of it. So I’m summarizing, you know, 30 minutes of conversation, and, you know, I’m saying that, did I? Did I get that right? And they’re like, Yeah, that’s right. You’re, you know, a great listener, which I have to record for my wife sometimes because she doesn’t agree with me. So that’s what you what you what you’re looking for is, is, yeah, that’s right. This person has heard, you know, message sent, heard, understands me. He says, if you get a, if you if you get a, you’re right. So sometimes, again, I keep talking about my wife. I’m like, Hey, Shay, we have to do a better job of saving for retirement. She’s like, you’re right. That’s really code for Shut up and go away. So it’s a, it’s a That’s right, is what, what really what we’re what we’re looking for. So that’s, that’s, yeah, very powerful.

Tim Ulbrich  47:08

That’s great stuff. And really just a great overall summary of some tips within the negotiation process, the steps of the negotiation process, how it fits into the financial plan. We hope folks walk away with that and just a good reminder of our comprehensive financial planning services that we do at yp planning. This is a great example of when we say comprehensive, we mean it so it’s not just investments, it’s not just student loans, it’s really every part of the financial plan, anything that has $1 sign on it. We want our clients to be in conversation and working with our financial planners to make sure we’re optimizing that and looking at all parts of one’s financial planning here, negotiation is a good example of that. So we reference lots of resources. Main one we talked about here today was never split the difference by Chris Voss. We will link to that in our show notes, and as a reminder to access the show notes, you can go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/podcast, find this week’s episode. Click on that, you’ll be able to access a transcription of the episode as well as as the show notes and the resources. And last but not least, if you like what you heard on this week’s episode of the podcast, please leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts, wherever you listen to the show. Each and every week, have a great rest of your day.

[DISCLAIMER]

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products, we urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyzes expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published such information may contain forward looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit your financial pharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week. 

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