financial planning for pharmacists

YFP 262: How Two Pharmacists Paid Off $250k of Student Loan Debt

Posted on June 30, 2022November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

How Two Pharmacists Paid Off $250k of Student Loan Debt

Kristen & Nate Hedrick to discuss their journey in paying off $250k of student loan debt, their motivation and why for aggressively paying off the debt, and the role a side hustle and real estate investing played to help them achieve their goal.

About Today’s Guests

Nate and Kristen Hedrick met at Ohio Northern University and were married in 2013. Nate is a pharmacist with Medical Mutual and a real estate agent with Berkshire Hathaway. Kristen is a pharmacist with Bon Secour Mercy Health. Together, they graduated with over $300,000+ in student loan debt. They enjoy visiting National Parks as a family. Today they live in the suburbs of Cleveland, Ohio, with their two daughters, Molly and Lucy, and their rescue dog Lexi.

Episode Summary

How do you go about aggressively paying off a $250,000 student loan debt without feeling overwhelmed? To help answer that question, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, is joined by fellow pharmacists Nate Hedrick, PharmD, and Kristen Hedrick, PharmD, BCACP. The Hedricks tell us how they successfully paid off over $250,000 in student loan debt, their motivation for tackling that debt, the pivotal moment that sparked making repayment a priority, and the role a side hustle and real estate investing played in their journey. After a brief history of Kristen’s background, listeners will hear what motivated the couple to take an aggressive stance on their debt repayments, how a life-changing event and one book altered their financial philosophy, and how the pandemic helped them focus on their strategy. Nate and Kristen share their reasons behind paying their debt off now instead of putting their money toward investments and how they found an additional $3,443 per month to make their goal attainable by reducing expenses and increasing their income. This earnest conversation takes us through the possibilities of working full time, raising a family, making investments, and paying off a huge debt, all at the same time. Nate and Kristen talk about their life after paying off this debt and share some advice for pharmacists who may be struggling with a similar debt situation.

Key Points From This Episode

Kristen’s background, how she ended up in pharmacy, and what she’s doing now.
What their student loan debt looked like at its peak.
How student debt can creep up and surprise you.
The initial feelings the couple had towards their debt and their plans to pay it off.
What motivated our guests to come up with an aggressive plan for paying back their debt.
How a life-changing event (and a book) in 2016 changed everything.
The global pandemic as a moment of inspiration.
What they had to change in their lives to be able to make the monthly repayments.
Paying off debt now versus investing for the future.
The way the couple used ‘double motivation’ to reconcile an age-old debate.
How our guests were able to raise a child, invest, and pay off a huge debt at the same time.
Nate’s decision to pursue real estate investing and what that meant for their debt repayments.
The approach the couple has taken to make real estate investing work for their family.
Other strategies that helped to pay off the debt aside from cutting expenses and real estate investments.
The benefits of receiving objective, third-party advice.
What life is like now after paying off their massive debt.
How paying off the debt helped Nate make an important career decision.
Kristen’s advice for the pharmacist struggling with debt.
Nate’s parting words of wisdom.

Highlights

“That was the worst that it got and, that same month, for what it’s worth, we had a negative net worth of $306,000. We had about 10k to our name and a bunch of debt to add on to that.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:03:44]

“I had no plan early on until we developed the ‘why’, which was getting our financial house in order so that we could live the way that we wanted to.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:06:23]

“The expenses were the catalyst, and then it was the extra income side of the equation that really boosted everything to actually make it possible.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:13:37]

“Spending more time with the kids without having that student loan debt, and being able to do more things and travel more, it feels like it’s definitely paying off in the end, with making some of those sacrifices.” — Kristen Hedrick, PharmD, BCACP [0:17:16]

“One great thing about real estate investing is even if something happens, you still own a building.” — Kristen Hedrick, PharmD, BCACP [0:22:00]

“Find something that is going to supplement your life that the more effort you put into it, the more reward you get out of it. That is a really great way to set yourself up for success.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:29:32]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here. Thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Kristen and Nate Hedrick to discuss their journey of paying off $250,000 of student loan debt. In this show, we discuss their motivation and why, for aggressively paying down the debt. What the pivot moment was that motivated them to make the debt repayment a priority, how they were able to come up with more than $3,000 per month extra to throw towards the loans, and the role a side hustle and real estate investing played in helping them pay down the debt.

Before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers free only, high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional.

If you’re interested in learning more about working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Nate and Kristen Hedrick to learn how and why they aggressively paid off $250,000 in student loan debt.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:23.4] TU: Kristen and Nate, welcomed to the show.

[0:01:24.7] NH: Hey Tim, good to be here.

[0:01:26.1] KH: Hi.

[0:01:27.0] TU: So Nate, obviously, you’re a frequent flyer. You’re old news so I’m not even going to spend a whole lot of time focusing on you. Many folks have heard you on the podcast before, whether it’s this show, talking about home buying, whether it’s the Real Estate Investing podcast on Saturday mornings, of course, Nate being the cohost of that show.

So, we’re going to focus a little bit more on Kristen’s background as we get started, and we’re going to jump into more about your debt-free journey and how ultimately, you guys were able to knock out $250,000 of debt, and what that has meant to you guys personally, to your family, as well as also the financial goals and plan that you have going forward.

So, before we jump into that debt payoff and that journey, Kristen, let’s start with you. Tell us a little bit more about your background, what drew you into pharmacy, where you went to school and the work that you’re doing now.

[0:02:13.0] KH: Yeah, thanks. I had some extended family members in pharmacy so I just thought it would be a good career path, and looked at the different pharmacy schools and found my way to Ohio Northern in the middle of cornfields, and no cellphone reception and for some reason, that’s where I wanted to go. I think we all know it’s a great campus and community there.

So went to Ohio Northern and that’s where Nate and I met. I completed my residency here in Cleveland, Ohio. Now I work for a large health system doing population health on clinical pharmacy, and following patients with their chronic disease states and helping them with their medicines, and helping in here in Cleveland.

[0:02:50.8] TU: Kristen, it’s funny you mentioned the cellphone reception in Ada Ohio, Ohio Northern University. I remember, I maybe as a P3, P4, just a few years ahead of you guys, but it was a big deal that they added a tower on campus, and I think we got one bar, maybe two bars, but not a whole lot going on in Ada Ohio. I had the chance to go back recently and take Jess and the boys. It was so fun to see campus and really relive some of the memories in that place.

So Nate, tell us about the student loan debt at its peak? What were you guys working with and then, from there, we’ll get into more of some of the motivation and journey of paying it off.

[0:03:26.4] NH: Yeah. So, when we graduated and totaled everything up and, I think it was even a month or two after we graduated that I even wanted to look at it. Because it was the initial plan of, “I just won’t look at it and then it won’t be a problem.” And when we totaled it all up, looking back at our highest count, we were at $316,000 in student loan debt at one point.

So, that was the worst that it got and, that same month, for what it’s worth, we had a negative net worth of $306,000, so we had about 10k to our name and a bunch of debt to add on to that.

[0:03:54.8] TU: I’m curious, did that surprise you guys? One of the stories I often share is that, it’s somewhat embarrassing, but when I was in pharmacy school, it felt a little bit like monopoly money, and it was all of a sudden when I crunch the numbers and I was like, “I owe how much, and how much interest, and what’s my net worth?” It just caught me off-guard, and it shouldn’t have. Were you expecting that or was that number somewhat a surprise at that point?

[0:04:15.4] NH: I agree, it was just totally like made up funds, you know? Every quarter or every semester, I’d have to go and submit for what I needed, and it was the tuition plus a little bit of living expenses, and I would just submit for it and it would get added into this imaginary pile of money somewhere, and I don’t think I ever checked the balance while I was in school, I don’t know why, I don’t know why I would have.

[0:04:35.7] TU: You’re dating yourself Nate, when you talk about quarters by the way. So that ain’t a thing anymore.

[0:04:40.7] NH: Old school, how I work.

[0:04:42.7] TU: Kristen, tell us about the plan that you guys had for the student loans after graduation, after you got married in 2013. How did you feel about the debt overall and then, what was the thought in that moment about how are you going to pay this off?

[0:04:55.7] KH: I think our main thought was it’s overwhelming. It’s just such a large amount that it feels so ambiguous that we thought that we had this plan. We had always wanted to try to pay it off within 10 years. I think I was a little more on track of, “Oh, I want to pay this off in 10 years” and we had some advice from a previous financial advisor that had said, “Oh, it’s just student loan debt, everyone has it, it will be okay.” We changed it to 30 years so we could have minimum payments but always pay extra if we wanted to and, ultimately, we just found that that eventually did not work as well for us.

We needed a more targeted plan to get us on track with what we were doing. We had always been paying the amounts, but I think it was how we were planning to target to actually pay it off. It always felt like this end date that we were never going to get to.

[0:05:44.4] TU: One of the questions I like to ask folks, and we’ll talk more in a little bit about how aggressive you guys were to really get a chunk of this paid off, but I like to understand, what’s the why? What’s the motivation behind it? It’s one of these things, as you mentioned, you can take them out 25, 30 years if you want to. Obviously, you guys made a good decision to be much more aggressive. Tell me more about for the two of you, for your family, why was that important?

[0:06:08.2] NH: It’s funny you say that because I think until I had a why, it wasn’t important. Like I said, I didn’t look at it, I barely wanted to check it. I think at one point in residency, I put myself on the graduated repayment plan and my only motivation was because the payment today is lower and that seems like—that seems better, right?

I had no plan early on, until we developed the ‘why’, which was getting our financial house in order so that we could live the way that we wanted to. Travel, work less, work in the capacities that we wanted to, all the things that have led us to this point. Until I had that in place, there wasn’t a why and it didn’t matter.

[0:06:42.7] TU: Yeah, I think that’s such a good encouragement for folks that are in the midst of their journey, or maybe have wondered into the repayment or for that matter, the financial plan at large, and feel like, “Hey, maybe I’m progressing but not as quickly as I would like to. I’m a little bit stuck.” Really going back to what gets us excited, right?

The topic of money, money is a tool. So, what gets us excited, why do we care bout this topic of money, why do we care about debt repayment, why do we care about saving/investing for the future, why do we care about giving? And then using that as the motivation to drive some of the action and the plan going forward.

So, Nate, what happened in 2016 that was really a motivation to say, “Hey, we’ve got to do something different?”

[0:07:22.0] NH: Yeah, that really is when it changed for us and, again, we’d been paying on them and, every once in a while, we get the idea that, “Hey, we should throw in some extra money because these loans are huge.” We would do it for a couple of months and I feel like we just were inconsistent. But in 2016, we got pregnant with our first child and, again, I tell this story on the podcast several times, but I read Rich Dad Poor Dad and it completely changed my mindset about money and what I wanted to do with money and what I wanted to do with my life and work, and just how I looked at finances.

It’s crazy it took that long to figure that out but I had no formal financial education. We go through pharmacy school, not business school, and until I read that book and changed how I wanted to approach finances in general, again, I didn’t have that why behind it. I didn’t have that motivation, so that’s what really jumpstarted us. I think it was a combination of, “Oh crap, we have a kid on the way and we have to pay for a lot of stuff” and again, this mindset shift that occurred, at least for me.

[0:08:16.1] TU: Kristen, I’m curious. I can just see Nate, because I know him now, I could see him like this totally nerding out over Rich Dad Poor Dad and coming to you with all these ideas and, “What about this, what about that?” Were you equally on fire in that moment or was there different motivations that really led you to say “Hey, we’ve got to do this differently?”

[0:08:34.4] KH: Yeah, I think I had always wanted to pay off the loan. Again, it was just so—it was a large amount that I think I didn’t know how to get there. When Nate said he read Rich Dad Poor Dad, he kept talking about it and talking about it. I think finally, in 2019, I read it, I said, “Oh, this is a really good book, I should have done it sooner”

So, I think we are a really good team together, in trying to work together and get those payments down, and Nate was very much more into it. I think at the time, I was like, I’m growing a human, I’m just going to keep doing what I’m doing, and that was the time that Nate entered real estate. He’s told this story before but, I’m six months pregnant and he goes, “Oh, I think I want to get my real estate license.” This is a time most people would have been getting board certified.

He’s like, “I’m going to go get my real estate license.” He had classes multiple times a week and I’m pregnant, trying to take care of the house and do all these things, getting ready for a baby. So, it paid off in the end and I’m glad that he did it, but I think in the moment there was also that stressful situation for me, but he’s a jack of all trades. He does lots of things and keeps busy, so it’s good.

[0:09:36.0] TU: We’re going to come back to that in a little bit, of what role did that play, Nate, for you, in terms of pursuing that, as you call, a side hustle. It’s much bigger than that, the work that you’re doing now, obviously, but why was that so instrumental, and not only to the numbers but also to some of the mindset and the motivation behind the financial plan and the journey that you were on?

I want to first talk about, though, Nate, walk us through what happened in the pandemic that really allowed you guys to say, “Hey, we’re going to get specific about when we’re going to payoff a big chunk of this debt, what it’s going to take each month.” Talk to us about what happened during the pandemic that led you to the decision around how you were going to pay off a huge portion of that debt.

[0:10:15.5] NH: Yeah, so, like I said, 2016 is where we started getting pretty serious, but even then, it wasn’t truly resolute plan, right? It was just, “Okay, we really got to be focusing on throwing extra money at this” and we did a lot better. But in 2020, we had a month or two in the pandemic and realized, “Okay, we’re not traveling as much, we’re not going to be going out to eat as much, everything shut down, let’s use this time to take the extra money that we’re not spending and really attack that loan.” At one point and, again, we were talking this morning, it was right at the end of the year, we said, “Okay, this thing is not going away, let’s really use next year to just get rid of this loan.”

So, right in December of 2020 and going into the beginning of the New Year, we said, “Let’s figure out a number. What is it that’s going to take to get this loan knocked out at the end of the year? Who cares of the balances right now, we’re going to do it in a year, let’s make sure to get it done.” So, we did some crunching of some numbers and basically said, “Okay, if we can pay everything we’re paying today but also throw an extra $3,443 at the loan every single month, mine will be gone by the end of the year and it will be just knocked out.”

So, that number, I wrote it on the big note card over here and it became like—actually got it here, I’ll grab it. Here you go, so there’s the evidence, right? 3,443. So, that became—I put that everywhere and it became the mantra of like, “If we can do that every single month, this will be gone” and that was such a huge motivator for us.

[0:11:32.8] TU: I don’t want to brush over that, because we’ll talk about it, I mean, that’s a big number, so we’re going to talk about the how of that, but tell us more about how you were able to get to that conclusion and get on the same page with that conclusion? What I’m specifically getting at here is, was it a, “hey budget status quo and we’re going to find ways to grow our income”? Was it a, “we’re going to cut some expenses”? How did you guys work through the details, Kristen, to ultimately say, “Yup, it’s $3,443 and this is how we’re going to do it.”

[0:12:04.5] KH: I think it was a little bit of a combination of both. During the pandemic, we had a little bit more interest. I think also, in doing some real estate investing and had an opportunity, we said, “Okay, do we take this money and do we put it towards real estate or do we pay down the loan more?” and eventually, we decide real estate, but we said, “Hey, like, maybe we should aggressively pay off our loan a little bit more if we are traveling and doing these things.”

So, I think in December, we had a lot of discussion about it and both of us just decided yes, we both want that to be our goal, that starting January 1st, we really start cutting back on what we’re spending. I think, really, from any area that we could, we went thorough our budget, we scrubbed it. We said, “What are we spending money on, what are the subscriptions we have, what can we cut out, what can we save money on?”

“Which of those little purchases can we just stop doing? Which things do we think that we need, can we actually hold off on buying?” and then, certainly, Nate’s side hustle helped with that as well. So, I think it was both a combination of, let’s cut back to really bare minimum spending. We weren’t eating out, we weren’t getting the extra cups of coffee from Starbucks, we weren’t doing the purchases at Target that said, “This is what you need, and this is in the dollar spot.” We just stopped all of that. And Nate worked as hard as he could with his real estate; it really is a motivator to keep putting that extra money towards it as well.

[0:13:22.3] NH: Yeah, I think we quickly realized that trying to find for an extra $3,000 in the budget. We weren’t over spending by three grand every month, that was not it, so it became my challenge to say, “Okay, well, how can I work at this side hustle to really get us the rest of the way?” So, the expenses were the catalyst, and then it was the extra income side of the equation that really boosted everything to actually make it possible.

[0:13:44.7] TU: Yeah. What I love about that is, certainly, cutting expenses, especially short-term, if you’re focused on a goal, you were talking about debt repayment, can be really valuable but it also can be a grind. I mean, it can be soul sucking sometimes, you know?

I think that one of the things I love about the approach that you took is that if you’re moving both sides of the equation, there’s a different level of momentum and mindset that come from that. Maybe the numbers aren’t as big for other folks that are pursuing ideas, but if you can both focus on, “Hey, how can we draw the income and how can we keep the expenses?” you all of a sudden feel like you’re picking up momentum in a significant way, but I don’t want to brush over that number.

$3,443 per month, that’s, for many pharmacist, if we assume, hundred, $120,000 of wage, it’s like, it’s about half of take home pay. I mean, for a lot of folks, we look at that at a monthly basis so that’s certainly commendable, and that’s a big number. Nate, I want to ask the question that I know the listeners are thinking, which is Nate, Kristen, you guys are smart. $3,443, why not invest that money?

Why not put that out so we could see that grow and compound over 20, 30, 40 years? Like, how did you guys reconcile this ongoing debate, which is maybe a little bit of a moot point right now because the administrative forbearance, but this ongoing debate of, “Should I pay down the debt or should I invest for the future?”

[0:15:03.9] NH: Yeah. This is something we struggled with for years. Should we go out and buy another rental property or should we just take this money and throw it at the loan? That’s been the back and forth. Like Kristen was saying, we were evaluating whether we should be doing real estate or paying down the debt.

We challenged ourself to say like, “Can we do both?” and so, for me, again, working and trying to add extra income to the equation. It became a game of, “Okay, if I can make $3,000 a month extra, that’s going to get us there. But if I can make 4,000 or 5,000, that’s another couple of grand I can put at the real estate investing budget.”

So what we have, we had a bucket in LI, in our LI bank account, that was the real estate investing fund and we still have that, we still use it, it is a great way to separate our money. I had to pull from that in any month that I didn’t make enough income to really make the difference, I had to pull out of that. So it was like this, I was afraid to give it up. So it became a challenge to myself and to us.

We need to cut our expenses and raise our income in a way where I can keep padding that account, that bucket, while also meeting our number. It was a double motivator of let’s get rid of the debt and I don’t want to lose sight of the other thing that I’m really passionate about. So, let us find a way to do both.

[0:16:09.8] TU: Kristen, we both know that kids could be expensive. We love them, but it can be very expensive. I think one of the challenges folks have that are raising young family, whether it is debt repayment, whether it is achieving other financial goals, is it’s an expensive phase of life, right?

The data suggested it’s multiples of hundreds of thousands to be able to raise a child, and I am curious of how you guys were able to reconcile this with young ones? I know you guys are so active and intentional as a family now. When you’re looking ahead to say, “Hey, this is a sacrifice now but it is going to allow us to really push our goals forward as a family later in the future.” Tell us about your thoughts on that.

[0:16:46.9] KH: For sure. I remember being pregnant in 2016 and just thinking like, “Oh my gosh, I already feel like we’re living paycheck to paycheck, how are we possibly going to raise a child and afford daycare?” We even joke now, our big expense is mortgage. Childcare and student loan debt was there, our mortgage was the least expensive of all of those.

So yes, certainly having kids is—we always felt like we knew we wanted to have kids and it was just figuring out how do we plan for that. I think, especially now, spending more time with the kids too without having that student loan debt and being able to do more things and travel more, it feels like it’s definitely paying off in the end with making some of those sacrifices or making those adjustments.

Really, that mindset change, I was joking this morning, like you said Tim, it’s mindset changing. In 2021, we actually kept a list of things of, what are things we didn’t buy that we’re going to buy when the student loan is paid, and I was laughing because I’m like, “I still haven’t even bought these things yet.” We just found that maybe we don’t actually need them.

[0:17:44.7] TU: Yeah and some of those behaviors. That’s what I always encourage folks, whatever goal you’re working towards, some of those behaviors you implement in that season will stay with you for the long run. Certainly, there’s a time and place to loosen the reigns a little bit and make sure we’re living a rich life today as well as planning for the future, but we’ll talk about what that looks like for you guys.

But some of those behaviors can stay longer, which I think is really an incredible part of the journey. I want to touch on two things we’ve mentioned I think play a really important role to this journey, which is, number one, that you talk about the side hustle you had working full-time as a pharmacist, as a real estate agent that allowed you to accelerate some of the goals and momentum.

Then the second being the investing in real estate, which much of our community already knows the work that you there on the Real Estate Investing Podcast but talk to us first about the side hustle as a realtor. When did you become a realtor, why did you become a realtor and you know ultimately, how have you been able to balance this while you are also at the time working full-time?” You are raising a young family, tell us about the decision to pursue that work and the role that it played and the debt repayment journey.

[0:18:51.3] NH: Yes, I mentioned that mindset shift that occurred in 2016. I realized I needed something else that was going to be able to supplement my pharmacy career, something where I could put extra effort in and get extra reward from doing that, real estate became a natural fit. Again, it is mentioned a dozen times in Rich Dad Poor Dad and I started reading other things about ways to diversify income streams and, you name it, right?

Real estate was in that conversation. I talked to my father-in-law who has been in real estate for years and he’s like, “You should just get your license.” At the time that felt like, “Well, that’s a different career. I can’t do that” but as I looked into it, it was actually a really reasonable option to supplement that. So I went, like Kristen said, to classes in 2016, got licensed in early 2017 and I assumed that everyone was all of a sudden coming to me, right?

All my family and friends were going to flock to me and say, “Nate, buy and sell me a house” and it was, I think, eight months before I had a real client and actually closed the deal. I mean, it was a long time, and that’s because I wasn’t putting the right amount of effort into it and I wasn’t targeting what I needed to be doing, right? I wasn’t niching down and, again, that’s what led to the creation of real estate RPH and all the work that I do with pharmacists and the real estate community.

All those things progressed down the road to the point where I am at today where, again, now I get to work with a bunch of active clients here in Cleveland. I help people all over the country with our real estate concierge service and it is a really cool way to put my passion for real estate into the world of pharmacy that I started out in and, again, it’s also been a great way for us to supplement our income stream just because it is something where I could put more effort in and get more dollars out as a result from doing that.

[0:20:21.6] TU: Yeah. I want to put a plug in, just so you don’t have to as well, but I think that service has really been so valuable to the community. So, if folks are looking to buy a home, sell a home, looking to buy an investment property and they’re looking for an agent that would be a good fit for them. It is okay if you’re not in the Cleveland area where Nate is, he’s built a network of agents all across the country that have supported other pharmacist.

So, if you go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com, you click on home buying, you’ll see a section for find an agent and from there, you can get connected with Nate further.

Kristen, I want to ask you about the real estate investing side just because Nate talks about this on the podcast every week but I know, because I’ve seen it offline through some of the times I am talking with Nate, you guys are crunching numbers on the property and you’re on the spreadsheets punching numbers, “Is this a good deal, is this not a good deal?”

Tell us more about the vision that you guys have had for real estate investing for you as a family, why that’s been a good fit, and the approach that you’ve taken thus far in your real estate investing journey?

[0:21:17.5] KH: Yeah, I think we always had an interest in real estate investing. You know, my family has some experience with that, like Nate mentioned, my dad is a realtor, so we knew its something we eventually wanted to do. It was just figuring out ,how do we put it in as part of our plan? But when Nate said he was interested, I was all onboard, but I was also that type-A risk averse pharmacist as in, “How do we do this? I have no idea.”

I vividly remember a lot of my commutes, listening to Bigger Pockets, reading a lot of real estate books just to fill my brain with the information I felt that I needed to feel comfortable with real estate investing, and we always knew that we wanted to have those properties. I think one of the biggest things I had learned from Bigger Pockets was, one great thing about real estate investing is even if something happens, you still own a building.

You still have something physical there that you could sell and we just—we always knew we wanted it to be something to supplement with one of our investments.

[0:22:13.4] TU: Yeah, so right now you guys have property, correct me if I am wrong, you’ve got property in Northeast Ohio and then you’ve also got property outside of the area, correct?

[0:22:22.0] NH: Yes, so we’ve got properties here locally and then some up in Michigan as well.

[0:22:25.7] TU: Awesome, love that. And folks can tune in to the Real Estate Investing Podcast for more stories of other pharmacists real estate investors. So, we’ve talked about really three main buckets that were instrumental in paying off this $250,000 of debt and that was, I categorize it as hustle, cutting your expenses that more than $3,000 per month, growing the income through the side hustle, and then also looking at how you’re able to build a real estate investment portfolio. We’re there other strategies that helped you along this way of paying off this debt?

[0:22:55.8] NH: There are little things. I think one that comes to mind for me is that we refinanced that loan, I think four different times, and a lot of that was because we were getting low interest rates every single time, and the other is because we were able to get big bonus. So, if you have been on any of the YFP resources for loan pay down or for loan refinance, you get cash bonuses depending on your loan balance.

A couple of times we would go out and refinance it, wait a couple of months, refinance it again, and we’d get a check and a lower interest rate, it just made a ton of sense. So, that was a little thing that helped quite a lot along the way.

[0:23:24.2] KH: I think another thing that really helped us was working with Tim Baker and the planning team at YFP. They were very much instrumental in guiding us through and helping us make the decisions. You know, I grew up putting my money under a mattress making sure it was nice and crisp and counting it every week. When we started this journey, Nate wasn’t financially savvy until 2016, when he got more into it after reading Rich Dad Poor Dad.

So, I think working together in having a third party objectively look at everything and give us some guidance was really helpful as well.

[0:23:55.9] TU: You don’t have to make Tim’s ego any bigger. No, I’m just kidding. I can see he is listening to that. So the question that I am begging to know the answer to is, you guys were throwing a huge amount of money at this debt. Obviously, at some point, you got that debt paid off and, all of a sudden, you’re not having to make that big of a payment anymore. I often think about this in the context of my journey and I often chalk it up to where did that money go.

Well, more kids, kids got expensive, other things come along the way, but I also know you guys have been really intentional as a family about what are we trying to do in terms of experiences and how we want to be intentional with the resources and the money that you have each month. So, Kristen, talk to us about this journey after the $250,000 of debt, where no longer making this massive monthly payment. What’s happening? What are we doing?

[0:24:43.5] KH: Well, we went to Disney World. I feel like that’s the most appropriate thing, you know? Honestly, in some parts, it feels like it hasn’t changed at all. We still have a lot of that mindset with being frugal and still saving for our future, but also trying to live in the moment, and we have done a lot of life planning as well and things that we want to do. I think we’re working on travelling more.

Like I said, we went to Disney, hopefully some other trips coming up, just being able to spend more time with the kids I think. People with children understand that the first five years before they start school is just hectic and overwhelming. We were just trying to take in all these moments before they head to school officially.

[0:25:20.1] TU: I love that. Right, it goes quick and everyone says that, but it’s real, and I think the intentionality around these experiences and making sure there’s the budget there to support those experiences and to be able to enjoy those moments along the way. Nate, you recently shared publically your decision to go from full-time to part-time work in your pharmacist role. So we’re going to officially call you a pseudo pharmacist now.

[0:25:41.7] NH: That’s fair.

[0:25:42.9] TU: How much of a factor was getting to this point of having this $250,000 of debt paid off, how much of a factor was that and being able to approach that decision and ultimately, feel confident in that decision.

[0:25:55.4] NH: Yeah, it was huge. I mean, I can’t say that when we stared off that was the plan but as we get closer, we realized that it was a possibility, and I looked at the timing and I looked at where we were at and I said, “Look, this is like the last summer before our oldest goes off to kindergarten and then it is just going to get crazier and crazier as time goes on” So I took a step back and said, “Now that this debt is gone, we really can take a step back.”

Kristen has been so supportive and helpful in allowing me to do that, but it’s been really cool because now I can just focus on them for the summer and those extra 20 hours that I found every single week is just, I’m on the kid’s schedule. Like the other day, it was raining in the morning and so we went to the movies and we saw a kid’s movie and then we got out and I was like, “Hey, it’s sunny. Let’s go to the playground” and so we did that.

It was just really cool to be on their schedule rather than some work schedule or something else that I had to do or had to get done. There wasn’t a timeframe anymore and that’s been really cool and again, without that debt being gone, there is no way we could have done that.

[0:26:51.3] TU: Yeah, what I love is I think both of you are such a great example. Where yes, you’ve got a PharmD, yes, you’ve got residency training, yes, you could continue to climb certainly in various clinical roles and there’s the opportunities always there and will be there, but you also have some opportunity for flexibility in those roles and I think sometimes we don’t think creatively enough as pharmacist about how we’re going to use our time each week, and that can change season to season.

I work with other pharmacists who went through a season with young family and others where they pivoted to part-time roles or more flexible schedules and then that changed the game at a later point in time. So I think there’s opportunities to make sure that we are coordinating our work plan with our life plan and with the financial plan as well. Kristen, I’ll start with you and then Nate, if you have other thoughts as well.

I’m someone listening who, maybe I’m a student, and I am like, “Oh my gosh, thanks so much I feel depressed about the journey ahead” or maybe I am in the middle of the debt repayment journey and I just feel like, “When does this going to end?” or I feel like I am spinning my wheels. What advice would you have for pharmacists that are in that debt repayment journey as they’re trying to really navigate that path forward?

[0:27:58.8] KH: Yeah. Not to sound cheesy, but I think a really big player, at least for me, was the YFP planning team. We felt like we had a plan but we weren’t really sure if it was a good plan, and really it was after I had our second child and I was listening to a lot of podcast. I was walking everyday on maternity leave and I was listening to podcast every time I would go for a walk and I was like, “We really need to look at this.”

I feel like we need a more set plan as to what we’re doing, especially since you’re at such an integral point of your life where you want to be able to spend extra time with the kids, but you also may feel like you can’t financially do that, and so I think having that, like I said, that objective third party look at what you two are talking about as a couple can be really, really helpful, and also helped us look at a lot of our other financial plan with the investments.

Like, can we get into more real estate investing, are we contributing enough to our 401(k)? Are we doing things that seem like we should be doing? I think that is really, really been a big impact on us on being able to achieve this.

[0:28:55.0] TU: Nate, any other words of wisdom, advice you’d have to folks that are kind of in the thick of it, if you will?

[0:29:00.6] NH: Yeah, I think for me, again, just for me at least, what were just this mindset shift away from being stuck at, “Okay, I only have—this is my income” right? “If I make a $110,000 a year as a pharmacist, that’s all I’ve got and there is no other opportunities and I have to make it work with that money.” I challenge everybody out there, and there’s a thousand and one different ways to do this, but you should find something where the more effort you put in, the more you get out of it, and it doesn’t have to be money, right?

That can be just time, that can be time with your family, that can be things that you enjoy doing, whatever that is, find something that is going to supplement your life that the more effort you put into it, the more reward you get out of it ,and that is just a really great way to set yourself up for success.

[0:29:40.9] TU: I love that. To reiterate what we talked about a little bit ago, the dollars are one piece of that, but don’t underestimate the momentum that comes from that as well, and that momentum is so important as it relates to the financial plan. You’re related to the debt repayment but I always stick to the other parts of the plan as well. Again guys, congratulations on knocking out this huge chunk of debt.

Really incredible to hear the story and the why behind it and how you’re able to do it, excited for what lies ahead of you guys and thanks for taking time to come on the show.

[0:30:10.5] NH: Thanks Tim, we appreciate it.

[0:30:11.6] KH: Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:30:12.3] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information of the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analysis expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 261: YFP Planning Case Study #2: Planning for Retirement, Saving for Kids’ College, and Paying Off Debt

Posted on June 23, 2022November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

YFP Planning Case Study #2: Planning for Retirement, Saving for Kids’ College, and Paying Off Debt

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, YFP Co-Founder & Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, CFP®, RLP® is joined by YFP Planning Lead Planners, Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA®, and Robert Lopez, CFP® to walk you through a financial planning case study on planning for retirement, saving for kids’ college, and paying off debt.

About Today’s Guests

Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA®

Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA® is a Lead Planner at YFP Planning. She enjoys time with her husband and two sons, riding her bike, running, and keeping after her pup ‘Fred Rogers.’ Kelly loves to cheer on her favorite team, plan travel, and ironically loves great food but does not enjoy cooking at all. She volunteers in her community as part of the Chambersburg Rotary. Kelly believes that there are no quick fixes to financial confidence, and no guarantees on investment returns, but there is value in seeking trusted advice to get where you want to go. Kelly’s mission is to help clients go confidently toward their happy place.

Robert Lopez, CFP®

Robert Lopez, CFP®, is a Lead Planner at YFP Planning. Along with his team members, Kimberly Bolton, CFP®, and Savannah Nichols, he helps YFP Planning clients on their financial journey to live their best lives. To go along with his CFP® designation, Robert has a B.S. in Finance and an M.S. in Family Financial Planning. Prior to his career in financial planning, Robert worked as an Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technician in the United States Air Force. Although no longer on active duty, he still participates as a member of the Air Force Reserves. When not working, Robert enjoys being outdoors, playing co-ed volleyball and kickball, catching a game of ultimate frisbee, or hiking with his wife Shirley, young son Spencer, and their dogs, Meeko and Willow.

Episode Summary

What are your retirement goals, and do your investments align with your vision of the future? Welcome to another episode of Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. YFP Co-Founder & Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, CFP®, RLP® is joined by YFP Planning Lead Planners, Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA®, and Robert Lopez, CFP®, to walk you through a financial planning case study on planning for retirement, saving for kids’ college, and paying off debt. This is our second case study, and this time we hone in on the lives of a fictitious couple, Fiona and Rob Anderson. We examine their financial portfolios, from salaries and debt to their investment accounts and insurance policies. Listeners will learn about Rob and Fiona’s retirement goals and whether they have invested in the right ways to achieve them. The problem of conflicting goals rises to the surface, and Kelly and Robert share how you can manage to prioritize your children’s college education with your own retirement plan. Kelly and Robert touch on innovative ways to spend less on college while giving us invaluable advice on making your investments work for you. Delaying your retirement and waiting to claim your Social Security are helpful methods in ensuring cash flow during retirement. Finally, we get a glimpse at what paying a mortgage during retirement is like, and whether there is reason to panic.

Key Points From This Episode

Getting to know Fiona and Rob Anderson.
The home, work, and financial portfolios of our case study couple.
Fiona and Rob’s investment accounts and insurance policies.
Diving into tax concerns.
Your children’s education versus building your retirement fund – conflicting goals.
How to prioritize conflicting goals.
Some innovative ways to lower the costs of college/university.
How to use 401Ks, RSUs, and other investment accounts wisely, for investing in your goals.
Delaying retirement and waiting to claim Social Security.
A closer look at whether their particular investment accounts work for their specific goals.
Unpacking the target date fund and traditional IRA.
What to consider when paying a mortgage in retirement.
Your age concerning your debt, and if there is reason to panic.

Highlights

“You can take out loans for school, but you can’t take out loans for your own retirement. So make sure you take care of yourself first.” —Robert Lopez, CFP® [0:08:20]

“It’s really like golden handcuffs. It’s a way for a company to make sure that you’re not going to want to leave, ‘Hey, here’s this money, but you have to stay here to get it.’” — Robert Lopez, CFP® [0:18:25]

“Taking those dollars that you feel are being wasted and putting them towards something that you actually feel pain over, is huge.” — Robert Lopez, CFP® [0:21:00]

“Things happen unexpectedly. So, having your documents in place is important, and it makes it a lot simpler and less chaotic.” — Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA® [0:24:20]

“The emotional variable, I can’t calculate for.” —Robert Lopez, CFP® [0:32:12]

“‘Money is power.’ But money is not power. Options are power. Having the option to do different things, and having the ability to make different plans is powerful.” — Robert Lopez, CFP® [0:35:02]

“The best plan is one that works. As long as it works for them, then they made the right choice.” — Robert Lopez, CFP® [0:35:16]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TB: You’re listening to the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, a show all about inspiring you, the pharmacy professional, on your path towards achieving financial freedom. Hi, I’m Tim Baker, and we’re back with the Case Studies, this time with the Andersons. I sit down with YFP Planning’s Lead Planners, Kelly Reddy-Heffner and Robert Lopez, to walk through this fictitious family and their financial plan.

Although the Anderson’s are not an actual couple we work with, they are really a composite of clients that we do work with in reality. The first part of the discussion, we lay the groundwork of the Anderson’s jobs and salary situations, where they live. We walk through their net worth and point out important elements of their financial situation. We also talk about their goals and what they’re trying to achieve.

We then talk back and forth about their financial situation. One of the big focuses being on education versus retirement planning and how to best use their investments going forward. This is a bit of the behind the scenes look at what goes on at YFP Planning. I hope you enjoy this episode, but first, let’s hear from our sponsor and we’ll jump into the show.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[00:00:58] ANNOUNCER: This week’s podcast episode is brought to you by Insuring Income. Insuring Income is your source for all things term-life insurance and own-occupation disability Insurance. Insuring Income has a relationship with America’s top rated term Life Insurance and Disability Insurance Company. So pharmacists like you can easily find the best solutions for your personal situation. To better serve you, Insuring Income reviews all applicable carriers in the marketplace for your desired coverage, supports clients in all 50 states and makes sure all of your questions get answered.

To get quotes and apply for term life or disability insurance, see sample contracts from disability carriers or learn more about these topics. Visit insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist. Again that’s insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist.

[EPISODE]

[00:01:50] TB: What’s up, everybody? Welcome back to YFP Planning, case study number two. The last time, if we remember our first case study, which I thought was smooth, looked at the Joneses. This time, we’re looking at YFP Planning case study number two, the Anderson’s. The Anderson’s that are a little bit different stage of life, but I’m excited to jump in with my colleagues Robert Lopez and Kelly Reddy-Heffner. Guys ,what’s going on? How are things going where you’re at?

[00:02:15] KRH: Good.

[00:02:16] RL: Yeah. It’s 105 today, so—

[00:02:19] TB: 105 in Phoenix. Kelly, you are, I’m sure, all in on this case study, not imagining sitting on the beach next week.

[00:02:26] KRH: That’s right. I am totally all in. Not distracted at all, but excited to talk through people in mid-stage.

[00:02:34] TB: Awesome. All good. So, Robert, same as last time. Why don’t you set up and, for those listening on the podcast, we are releasing these on video, so you should be able to see us talk through our one page overview of the Anderson’s. Robert is going to set us up in terms of salaries and things like that. Kelly is going to get into goals and debt, and then I’ll take us home, and then we’ll open it up for discussion and go from there. So, Robert, why don’t you take us away?

[00:02:58] RL: Yeah. So, today we’re working with Fiona and Roy Anderson. Fiona is Field Medical Director. She’s 46 years old, making $155,000 a year. Roy is a Pharmacy Manager, 48 years old, making 135. They’re married, filing jointly. They have two sons, Michael and Paul, aged 16 and 14 respectively. They live in Jersey City, New Jersey. Their gross income works out to about $290,000 a year, which breaks down to around $24,000 monthly. Their net, or what they actually receive in their bank accounts, is about $12,000 a month. Their fixed expenses are $6,300, variable expenses of $2,200, and then about $3,300 of monthly savings. They live and own a three bedroom, a single family house. They purchased in 2008, which they got for $420,000 using a conventional 20 percent down at a 6 percent interest rate. Then, in 2015, they’re able to refinance to a 4 percent, 30 year fixed mortgage.

[00:03:56] KRH: Then they have a few goals that they want to accomplish while we’re working together, hypothetically. They want to pay for the four years of undergrad for Michael and Paul. They are making 529 contributions, which they recently increased. They have a pretty robust amount in the account baseline. They want to know if they’ll have enough to accomplish that. Concurrently, they want to try to retire in the next ten to 15 years. One thing to consider is, with the home that they currently own, they want to downsize and move to Florida. Then they are concerned about some of the debt that they still have, as well. So, that debt is listed out as a home equity line of credit that has a 5 percent interest rate.

They remodeled their kitchen and are paying $1,000 a month on that. They still have car loans. They pay a total of 750 interest rates between 3.5 and 4.25 when the two car notes. They still have their own student loans, which is always an interesting intersection with paying your own children’s college tuition as well. They refinance to a ten year private loan, 4.25 percent five years ago. Then, of course, they have the mortgage. So it’s a 30 year fixed 4 percent interest rate after that refi. They’re seven years in and they’re paying 2,500 a month.

[00:05:21] TB: Then, from the wealth building side, they have some cash in the bank, $20 grand in checking, $50 grand in savings, but in terms of their investments they’re looking at 401K, so they both currently have 401K that they’re contributing 4 percent each, plus a 4 percent employer match, so basically 8 percent in total. They’re both invested in the 2035 target date funds. Fiona has an old 401K, a small one at $15,000 that she hasn’t really looked at. They do have a 529 account that they’re increased their contributions lately to $1,0LL, so $500 for each son, so $12,000 a year to get to that goal. Unfortunately, they don’t get an income tax deduction, because in New Jersey if you make more than $200,000 it’s off the table.

They do have a taxable account which is basically Fiona’s RSU, so stock units as part of her compensation, which we see in a lot of Industry Pharmacists. We’ll get that as part of their comp. She has $125,000 that it’s currently sitting in there, all in the company stock, and then they have a joint savings account that they’re putting a hundred bucks a month in, to consider the rainy day.

Michael graduation trip, when you graduate high school, and then a traditional IRA that they’re funding for Fiona in a balanced fund. That is basically their investment accounts. Roy also has a Roth IRA that has about $36,000 in it that he’s not contributing to. It’s sitting there presently.

From a wealth protection, so this is typically where we talk about insurance, in a state, they each have a 20 year term, $1 million policy that they purchased five years ago, plus a little bit of group life insurance that basically matches their salaries, $150,000, $135,000 respectively. They both have short term and long term disability which has a benefit of 60 percent. That’s going occupation for two years, then any act after that. Roy carries his own professional liability policy. Then, they have a will that was done when Michael was born, so basically 15, 16 years ago. A living will or trust, power of attorney that needs to be updated.

From a tax perspective, they currently use an accountant, but they’re not sure they’re maximizing their deductions. They recognize that New Jersey state income tax and property taxes are killing them, which is why a lot of people from New Jersey moved to Florida. It’s not as bad. They typically owe taxes every year, so they’re basically reached in their pocket for that. One of the big tax concerns they have is that with Fiona’s RSUs, they’re worried about capital gains on that and not really sure what to use that for.

Some other things are conflicted about how much to put towards college versus their own retirement. Can they retire in 15 years? In retirement, they’re really looking to up their travel game a little bit more. So I guess, I’ll pose the question to the group here when you guys look at the Anderson’s, Fiona and Roy, what are some major things that stick out to you when you’re approaching them in terms of their financial plan?

[00:08:08] RL: Yeah. The first two goals that they have are conflicting here. So they want to pay for education for the boys, but they also want to make sure they’re setting themselves up for retirement. One of the phrases that you’ll hear a lot through financial conversations is, “You can take out loans for school, but you can’t take out loans for your own retirement. So make sure you take care of yourself first.” I think they’ve done a really good job with that so far. They’ve saved a lot in their 401K. They’ve set aside money for the boys at the same time, but now it’s really deciding on how to be important about that and how to be decisive.

The 4 percent that they’re doing into their retirement accounts, plus 4 percent of a match is good, but not where we’d like to be. Ideally, we want to meet at least 10 percent, and I think there are going to be some ways that we can get them to that point. I think that their savings in their 529, right now, is aggressive at $1,000 a month. That’s a pretty big chunk of their cash flow. I think that that’s actually going to be enough, depending on some scenarios we may discuss. But really deciding is the order that they gave it to us, to correct order that they have. Is the boy’s education more important than their own retirement? Are they willing to accept the opportunity cost or the change that would require? They may need to work longer to send the boys to college, and really flushing that out.

[00:09:14] TB: I think one of the things that is interesting about this case, because we hear it for a lot of new practitioners, is the age old question of, should I pay down my debt, i.e., my student loans or should I get going on my retirement, my investments? There’s that push and pull that I don’t think really ever goes away, because there’s just different things that are always competing against that berm investment game. So when you look at this, how would you walk them through or walk them down the path of getting down to the granular bits and pieces of the retirement versus the education? Is that something that you would look to model out? Is it really asking more clarifying questions with regard to their goals? Walk me through your thought process there.

[00:10:03] KRH: Sure. I agree with Robert that those are conflicting. So, talking through what’s important when individuals have their own student loan debt, they really do tend to lean towards creating scenarios where that doesn’t exist for their own children. We do a high level nest egg that popping some numbers in, based on this case study, they probably wouldn’t be able to retire in ten years, based on these numbers. So, Robert is correct about that, too. More contribution would be better. As far as the education, we can model out and take a look. Certain schools are going to be more cost effective. There are other things that students can do. Good grades. Robert gives a great talk on collect exams, which I love. My own children have listened to some of the conversation.

There are ways to make college funding more affordable and have those conversations. The kids are at an age at, especially at 16, really to start the conversation about what’s affordable, what makes the most sense, and the parents, setting some boundaries on what they’re comfortable with to not sacrifice their own retirement goals. Yeah, a combination of modeling would definitely answer some of the questions about that expected cost in the future, how much they’re going to be able to cover. What the shortfall is. Then I think Robert’s right too, about finding a better balance with the goals and how to prioritize them.

[00:11:40] TB: Robert, can you give us the cliff notes on the CLEP thing? Because I think that’s actually pretty powerful, if you’re a pharmacist that’s listening and then you have kids that are high school age looking at colleges. This is something that I think [inaudible 00:11:50].

[00:11:54] RL: Yeah, Tim. One of the big things that we like to talk about with clients is not necessarily just saving for college, but also ways to save on college and education expenses. There are a ton of ways to do that, whether it’s planning to go to a community college for the first couple of years or it’s maybe just ignoring traditional education and going to our trade schools. But one of the ways I like to do it is just getting credits out of the way, and everyone understands dual enrollment credits and everyone talks about AP courses, where they can test out of college classes, but a CLEP, a C-L-E-P is run by the College Board. It’s the same people that create the SAT.

What it is? Is it’s a test where you can sit down. Take a one-time test where it costs about 90 bucks on a bunch of general education classes. If they pass that course, then they get to skip it in college, they get automatic credits that will be accepted at the majority of universities. Now, every university in college has their own rubric that they request, and they say, “Hey, you have to get at least 65 on this class for it to count. They only accept these five classes. 65 different CLEPs, that different college will accept.

If you’re a math major and you don’t want to take English classes, take these two tests while you’re in high school, when you just learn English and never have to take it in college. Or if you’re an English major who doesn’t want to take mathematics, when you take a mathematics and high school that’s practicing for the test, you take a CLEP, you pass it, you never have to take it in college again. It’s a great way to either get a head start on college or get through the classes that are going to slow you down, and allow you due to the coursework that actually excites you and makes you want to go to college, rather than slogging through the first two years of Gen Ed before you can get to the stuff that you care about.

[00:13:20] TB: Yeah, I think it’s now really important to highlight all the tools that are available for students and parents to make a good decision. I feel like, if I get in the time machine and go back to when I was looking at schools, I didn’t have any. And I think because—I would have done very foolish things back in the day. I think that if there are things that we can do, whether scholarships or things like Test NL, going to put the price tag a little bit more affordable. I think probably one of the things that I would want to model out and what’s interesting about the Anderson’s is that they have a goal in place.

A lot of people, especially, I think if they have young kids, will ask, “What’s the goal for sending your kids to college?” It’s like, “I don’t know.” That’s what we talk about the one third rule, which we’ve talked about at length, where you can pay—basically the idea is that what you’re putting in 529 is one source of the tuition, and then another source would be when your child is 17 or 18 going into college, you’re basically paying that out of your paychecks, you’re sending a check to the college. Then the last third would be the scholarships and the student loans. Last but not least. We use that as a default, that there’s no idea what they want to do. With Fiona and Roy, the idea is put them through four years of undergrad.

Kelly, we know that not all schools are created equal, right? Whether they go to somewhere like Rutgers, which is in the state in New Jersey or somewhere like The University of Miami, which is a private school out of state in Florida, how do you advise parents to talk to their kids or just approach this with their kids, in terms of sensible decisions with regard—I know it’s hard at 17, 18 year old to go about approaching that question.

[00:15:07] KRH: Well, definitely when we started that conversation, it was talking about what our budget was, what we were going to be able to contribute. Then, looking when we would look up schools, understanding what the tuition is. There’s a number that pops up a lot on schools or websites. That’s an average cost, unfortunately, depending on your income and for many of our clients. That income is not going to reflect what that average cost is. So the average cost assumes 100 percent paid for, in some scenarios, all the way up to paying the full price tag. It’s really good to understand what your cost is likely to be, and at this income level for Fiona and Roy, it’s probably not a whole lot of financial aid.

I would assume no financial aid based on need. I do recommend having an understanding of what your cost might be. What schools are going to give those scholarships? There are certain schools that only give financial based need aid. There are schools that give grants for being a tuba player, the football player, great academics. So knowing your skills, what your talents are in a range. I would agree, we mentioned, Rutgers, a state school is going to be different than Princeton. What does that look like between the two? But I think people also discount private schools, and just seeing some of those schools have pretty nice endowment and a little better package. I would say I’d look at a nice handful.

We sometimes see kids are applying to 30 schools. You’re busting your budget, just on application fees. So, pick a few that makes sense. Have a few you can compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges and be like—you’re really looking for the best package and the best fit that’s financially viable for you and the student borrower, who’s going to take on any debt that you all can’t pay for if the savings is at capacity.

[00:17:14] TB: Yeah, I agree. I think one of the wildcards in this whole situation is we look at the taxable account. So, I don’t think I broke down what they have in their 401K. But Fiona has a 425 plus another 15 in an old 401K, Roy has 459. Then they have 365 and a Roth IRA and 195 – Ira. I think the wild card Robert, in this whole scenario in terms of the planning is what to do with the RSUs. These are a weird, because it’s compensation that comes in the form of stock that can grow over time. I’m a big proponent of like, “Okay, let’s tie this to something.” So, is this something that is for retirement? Is this something that they could apply towards the debt, towards the education? What’s your thought with regard to—how would you approach it? How to utilize that for the goals that the Andersons have?

[00:18:08] RL: Yeah. So restricted stock units, for those who aren’t aware, are a form of compensation when a company gives you stock, but you have to invest into it, right? Generally it comes in with the grant where it says, “Hey, you’re going to get this many shares.” Then, you’ll get a portion of it every year or quarter or month depending on the policy. It’s really like golden handcuffs. It’s a way for a company to make sure that you’re not going to want to leave. “Hey, here’s this money, but you have to stay here to get it.” Yeah, you may want to leave, but you have some invested RSU grants that you’re not going to be able to get if you leave right now. So you should probably just stay with us.

One of the things that I like to make sure clients understand is that these RSUs are just income, right? It’s taxed as income when you get it and you need to treat it as such. Although it looks like this big shiny object that we have to save and grow forever, it is just income and we can use it as such. So when we look at them, their big goals are, “Hey, I want to pay for college. Hey, I want to make sure we retire. Hey, I want to have less debt.” We want to help them, again, rack and stack those goals where sure, if we need that money for college, then it’s there, right? But if we can find out a plan for college, “Okay, cool. Let’s check that off, the boys understand what we have for them. The boys are going to come up with their own plan and it’s going to be financially settled.”

Okay, retirement. How can we use this money toward retirement? We could reorganize our cash flow, when we’re actually cashing out. Some of these are issues which would allow us to put more away in our retirement buckets. That’s a great way to use it. Another way is to solve that fourth goal. These are issues again. It’s just a taxable investment account. We have an unknown what the capital gains are, so we’re not sure, in this scenario, exactly how much of that is the grant itself and how much that is gained.

There will be some tax complications of this plan, but the $125,000 could, in reality, pay off all of their debt other than the mortgage. We can pay off the HELOC, which is $43,000 at 5 percent. We could pay off the cars at 3.5 and 4.5 percent. We could pay off the student loans at 4.5 percent. Then all they would have left is the mortgage that would free up $2,300 in cash flow on a monthly basis—

[00:20:04] TB: It is huge.

[00:20:05] RL: That’s huge, that’s a huge amount of money, okay. That could then turn around and immediately go towards extra savings, extra travel budget for that graduation trip they want to take in two years, extra 401K contributions. Right now, they’re doing 4 percent plus a 4 percent match. We could easily get that to ten or 12 percent without changing their life at all, only by reallocating those RSU dollars that are just sitting in a holding to this thing. We also know that she’s getting more RSUs, so this isn’t the end of her getting company stock. She’s going to get those refreshed, which is what happens when you get a new grant all the time. So as long as she’s still working, those grants are going to keep coming. We just want to make sure we’re using them appropriately.

They’re just sitting there, maybe they’re growing, they’re doing phenomenally, maybe they’re going down. We got to check the company trajectory, but using that to solve an immediate goal, like get out of debt and save for retirement would be a huge lift on somebody’s spirit. Having done that with clients in the past, taking those dollars that you feel are being wasted and putting them to something that you actually feel pain over, is huge.

[00:21:05] TB: Yeah. I think one of the things that I would want to unpack. I love all of the different avenues to go, potential pot of money, the RSUs, which is, like you said, another form of compensation. I think the other thing that I would really want to impact with the two of them is to retire in the next ten, 15 years. Is it closer to ten? Is it closer to 15? One of the things that’s going through my RICP coursework that I just thought was astounding was delaying retirement by three to six months is the equivalent of saving 1 percent more for the course of your 30 year career.

Another way to look at is delaying retirement by one month is the equivalent of saving 1 percent more for the final ten years before retirement. One of the big things that I think people get wrong in retirement is when to claim Social Security. Obviously, if you can delay that, you have an income stream for life that follows inflation that’s super valuable. So, are there ways to potentially increase that retirement paycheck? Now, they could look us and we know that this is true, guys. In pharmacies, I only got ten more years left. I’m burning out, I’m not good. Maybe there is the ability to work part time or things like that.

I think to Robert, to your point, being able to model out and move those pieces around to say, “We could use this pot of money and clear all that debt that frees up that cash” is a beautiful thing. But they could also say, “We feel bullish on the company that we want to let it ride and we won’t have the certainty there of cashing out and retiring those debts. Maybe we’ll let it ride for greater upside, but we know that there’s risk there as well.” Super fascinating. The nice thing about this is there are pieces to move here and there’s different scenarios to run. I guess, one question I would have with regard to the protection of the plan. Kelly, what are some things where their insurance related or a state plan and related that you see has some areas of exposure for them?

[00:22:59] KRH: I mean, in general, the insurance looks pretty good. The term 20 years, they just purchased it five years ago. So they’re going to get the kids through college. I know we had talked about this the last time. What amounts make sense of the disability policies? The amount looks reasonable with the 60 percent of income replaced. I would say the own-occupation for two years is a little bit of a question mark or sometimes we see the policies follow an income amount. So is it the income amount? Or is it that owning your own or any occupation? That’s probably something, I’d look at a little further, because we know just with the actuarial data that that can be a bigger problem than [inaudible 00:23:42]. But things look reasonable.

I would say, I would get the estate planning documents updated. So I would get the will double checked and updated, some other things probably have changed, as well over the last six years. I am a fan of having advanced medical directives in place, in terms of retirement. I think one of the statistics in our slide deck is that things happen sooner than we think they might happen at times. On the positive side, if you have an opportunity to retire, great. But sometimes health events, issues, things happen unexpectedly. So having your documents in place is important, and it makes it a lot simpler and less chaotic, especially at this phase. The kids aren’t really old enough to be making decisions, so you do still need to have things in place for sure.

[00:24:38] TB: Yeah. I think obviously that’s one of the often overlooked parts of the financial plan. Unless you’re military, where they force you to do wills and things like that, that’s where you typically see it more frequently. But just making sure that that’s buttoned up and there’s a plan in place for that. I think the other thing that I would probably circle back on. Robert, I would love to hear your thoughts on, is just the overall allocation. Do you think l balance funds—I see that we’re funding the traditional IRA, which see— were in 2035 target date funds, which are in that time frame. Ten to 15 years is still a pretty long time to go, so I’d want to dig deeper into that in terms of what they’re actually invested in.

We know, as we talked over at length in the past, that the allocation console of a lot of things, because if you’re looking at ten years, 20 years-time, typically the stock market, will take care of you. So, how would you look at their investments, particularly with the traditional IRA and maybe some of the allocations that you’re seeing?

[00:25:35] KRH: Yeah. One of the things on the traditional IRA that we need to double check on is, how are these dollars even going in there? Based on the fact that she has a 401K and they make so much money, shouldn’t be qualified for deductible contributions. So we want to make sure that these contributions have been going in undeductable, that they’re not trying to take a deduction on it. Beyond that, having them in a balanced fund doesn’t sound bad.

Most people in the world will believe that balanced means 50/50, but in the finance world it means 60/40, because why would we make sense? So a 60/40 fund on that account isn’t terrible for their age range, but it’s probably a little conservative. To go along with that, the target date 2035 funds, which are just mutual funds aged for a use at 2035, so they decrease in risk over time. Those are probably about the same right now, so about 60/40 at this point in time. I think that that should be probably extended. If they’re going to stay at a target date fund which is not necessarily a bad thing, I’d probably want to extend it closer to that 2045 timeframe to line up more with a normalized retirement.

You don’t actually aim for the year you’re planning to retire. It’s more so you aim for 65 and then that stretches out over your lifetime. It’ll never go to 0 percent investments. It’ll always have something in the market, because if we’re going to live to 100, we can’t just put it all into cash the day we retire. We need to have some risk in there. I think they still need to have a little bit more risk going on. So we want to look at what options they have, what the fees are, what the expenses are, how complex we can make it, but at the very minimum, I’d to maybe take that up to about 80/20 from a risk perspective. We obviously talk to them and make sure that they’re comfortable with that amount, but with their current time horizon, I think that that would still work.

[00:27:10] TB: Yeah, I think it’s asking a clarifying question and maybe digging into – because I think, even all target date funds in this, they aren’t created the same. There’s different allocations that are associated, depending on the year. I think the other thing that I would probably want to look at, just to make sure, is that you could have a balanced fund for the 529, which might be good for Michael’s accounts, but maybe not for Paul’s. Maybe it is Paul’s 14, so he has a couple more years, maybe just looking at that.

As Michael is going to college, we’re not overexposed in equities and we see a crash and then not as much dollars are there. One question, and then we wrap this up, guys. I think one question that I would ask related to the mortgage. They’re 46 and 48, respectively. Based on their refi that happened after what was that? That was in 2015, so we’ll say seven years ago, they had 23 years left on the mortgage.

Kelly, you recently relocated, so maybe get your take on this. Your thoughts on you—whenever says like, we have too much debt. I think Robert did an excellent job of outlining the path, or basically, we can redeploy some of the assets to basically wipe all the debt out, except for the mortgage. My question is this. If I’m mid to late 40s, or 50s, and I have a mortgage that’s going to take me well beyond retirement age, should I be freaking out about that, or what’s your thought? How do you talk clients off the bar to that part?

Because of debt, obviously, this is something that can be a detriment to your retirement paycheck in the future. Walk me through what you guys think in terms of that. It’s like, now I’m 46, I’m 48, we have 23 years left in the mortgage, or that [inaudible 00:28:54].

[00:28:56] KRH: Oh, my gosh. I love this question, because I think it really could be all over the place. I think, well, I feel like, there could be a point-counterpoint, point-counterpoint about this. It is interesting. Off the top of my head, when we do the nest egg, we’re like, okay, the wage replacement ratio, 70 percent of what you’re living on now, because you’re debt-free, you’re not paying into retirement. They’ve said that they want to move. It will be interesting to see if you are downsizing and you’re going to sell the house. Anyhow, that current mortgage debt is not going to be as big of an issue.

I would say, if they’re not moving, ideally, you’d probably like to see it paid off, but it really does come down to cash flow. When we run modeling and looking at retirement and potential for success to reach a very pleasant age of 95, or a 100 and still have resources, it really always comes down to cash flow and budget. What you’re living on per year has a big impact on that. Is the mortgage affordable to make the plan work? It really does depend. It would go in the modeling and scenarios and again, comfort.

I guess, I would lean towards wanting the debt paid off if I wasn’t moving before retirement. Then, we just have that conversation in my house and my spouse is like, “I could live with pain for a couple years, and then we sell it, and we become expats on a Caribbean island.”

It depends, but I do think it does a little bit. Wherever they go with it, Robert, I will love to hear what you add in, too. Before I turn it over to Robert, I would say, too, the other thing about wealth protection, at this stage, this is often when our parents are having stuff going on, too, if their parents are still alive and they have a relationship with some understanding about that. That relationship, hope and expectation is definitely a key part of protection. I’m often surprised at what an overwhelming time that can be. The kids are in college, but the parents have some type of health issue, and that can be stressful as well.

[00:31:20] TB: Which is important to bring up, because it’s not necessarily that Fiona or Roy’s parents would be our clients, but their parents situation can affect the financial plan of our clients. It’s good to get in front of that before—have those hard conversations about who is doing what or providing care, or if they have policies that not left the—cover down on that. Yeah, that’s a huge important point. How about you, Robert, in terms of the debt? 23 years left. I’m in my mid to late 40s. Should I be freaking out about that, or is it depends?

[00:31:51] RL: Specifically for the mortgage, I think, to Kelly’s point there, that two of them in our own household have different vibes on that. That’s one of the key things when we’re talking about this with clients is, mathematically, I can tell you the right answer. Mathematically, it’s interest rate arbitrage. We’re paying 4 percent of the mortgage. We can get 8.50 percent, 80-20 portfolio. We should just put it in the retirement accounts. The emotional variable, I can’t calculate for.

If someone has a money script that tells them that they have to have no mortgage when they retire, because they saw their parents or their grandparents have issues in their life because they had a mortgage tying them down, then that’s something we have to attack. If they’re going to downsize, doesn’t necessarily mean that their mortgage is going to go down. In Florida, are they going to leave a single-family home in New Jersey and move to a very swanky condo, 50s plus condo in Florida where they’re playing shuffleboard with movie stars? Maybe they’re going to be paying more even with less space. Those are some things to work out.

Having that conversation of 4 percent interest rate, although it may have sounded extremely large a year and a half ago, or even six months ago, is really a good rate historically. It’s not going to be the end of the world. It’s a securitized debt, so it’s tied to their house. I would be more worried about the other loans.

[00:33:05] TB: I was going to say the same thing. Probably, even the student loans that have probably just been kicked down the road a bit, I would almost—and this is probably an emotional thing, because I’m sure the—well, we said that the student loans are four and a quarter. Then not much more. I think, and this is more an emotional thing, this is a bias of mine, I’m like, “Let’s retire those loans before we start sending Michael to school,” would be my thought.

It’s a great point is, what is the plan in the future? It’s that arbitrage. Do we emotionally make that extra payment on a 4 percent mortgage, which historically over a 30-year mortgage reduces that by seven years, if you pay that extra payment, or do you put that extra payment more towards the retirement, get a better rate of return over the long-term and secure that?

I don’t know. That’s also another thing that, as Kelly mentioned, in her household, it’s different. It’s different in our household, too. I don’t think it really even registers with, where I’m I in my mind want to have the mortgage paid off as I retire, which in my mind is 70, but I could lose my marbles before that and have to retire sooner. That could be a thing. That’s another thing that people sometimes discount, is that you’re not always in control of when you actually retire, either because of career stuff, or health stuff.

Yeah. I think these are fascinating questions that we’re talking about this on a vacuum, but really go back and ask Fiona, ask Roy, the fake clients that we’re talking about, some clarifying questions about the debt, about the investments, the education and with the retirement picture, I think would be really important to then proceed with the plan.

Again, as we always say, it’s not about necessarily the plan. It’s about planning, because we know the next time we talk, there’s going to be a wrench in the system that’s going to potentially have a zig and zag as we get further along the plan. Guys, anything else to add?

[00:34:52] KRH: No.

[00:34:51] RL: No. I think they’re in a great spot. I think that Fiona and Roy have done a really good job of setting themselves up for success. People always like to say, and I use this phrase all the time, “Money is power.” But money is not power. Options are power. Having the option to do different things, and having the ability to make different plans is powerful. They have put themselves in a place where they have a lot of options going forward, and they can choose what they believe is the best path. The best plan is one that works. As long as it works for them, then they made the right choice.

[00:35:19] TB: Totally agree.

[00:35:20] KRH: If they use the RSUs to buy an RV, we’ll see.

[00:35:24] TB: Don’t do it. Don’t do it. I was talking to the team last night, on our happy hour, that I said $800 RV. It’s actually $1,100. Yeah, they’re a money pit All right. Robert, Kelly, thanks again for talking about the Andersons on our case study here. Looking forward to doing the next one here, in the next couple of months. Yeah, we’ll do it again soon.

[00:35:45] RL: Toodles.

[MESSAGE]

[00:35:47] ANNOUNCER: Before we wrap up today’s show, let’s hear an important message from our sponsor, Insuring Income. If you are in the market to add own-occupation disability insurance, term-life insurance or both, Insuring Income would love to be a resource. Insuring Income has relationships with all of the high-quality disability insurance and life insurance carriers you should be considering, and can help you design coverage to best protect you and your family.

Head over to insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist, or click on their link in the show notes to request quotes, ask a question, or start down your own path of learning more about this necessary protection.

[DISCLAIMER]

[00:36:23] ANNOUNCER: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment, or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation, or offer to buy or sell any investment, or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the date publish. Such information may contain forward-looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

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YFP 260: Why It’s Critical for Women to Take Control of Their Personal Finances

Posted on June 16, 2022November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

Why It’s Critical for Women to Take Control of Their Personal Finances

On this episode, sponsored by APhA, Robin Hauser, an award-winning director and producer, talks about her most recent documentary, $avvy, which explores why it’s critical for women to understand and take control of their personal finances.

About Today’s Guest

Robin Hauser is the award-winning director and producer of documentaries (CODE: Debugging the Gender Gap, Bias, $avvy, Running for Jim) made to illuminate causes about which she is passionate. Those include the gender gap in tech, unconscious bias, equality, and financial savviness. Robin’s work has carried her around the world, from the TED and TEDx stage to the White House, NASA’s Kennedy Space Center, and conferences worldwide, speaking about mitigating bias in artificial intelligence, the likability dilemma, diversity, inclusion, financial wellness, and gender equality. A self-described “disruptor,” Robin is committed to provoking thought to address the most important socio-economic issues we face today.

Episode Summary

There is an antiquated stereotype that women are ill-equipped to deal with the complexities of finance, but did you know that women outperform men when it comes to investing? In today’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, is joined by award-winning director and producer, Robin Hauser. In connection with her most recent documentary, $avvy, Robin walks us through the gender-based stereotypes surrounding finances while giving us her lived experiences of unconscious bias. Robin shares her motivation and inspiration $avvy and why it is an important work for people to view. The $avvy documentary addresses why women often take a passive role or give up their role in managing their finances, particularly millennial women. We dive into the different responsibilities men and women have concerning the financial planning of their households. Robin then highlights some of the obstacles facing women who want to take control of their finances—surprisingly, age is a noticeable factor. The conversation takes us through the confidence gap, and Robin states the importance of financial literacy education and instruction from an early age. Listeners will learn all about the pain of paying and the reasons behind financial education being a male-dominated space.

Key Points From This Episode

Robin’s real-world example of unconscious bias.
The gender-based stereotypes surrounding finances.
How day-to-day and long-term financial planning responsibilities differ in a household.
Why a woman’s lifespan is an important consideration.
The biggest obstacles facing women who want to take control of their finances.
How women outperform men when it comes to investing.
The psychology of confidence.
Negotiation and gender perception.
When financial literacy should be taught to women, men, and teenagers.
The pain of paying.
Why it’s mostly men who are the educators of financial literacy.

Highlights

“‘You do know that women have pocketbooks too, right? Women can buy condos or can join a timeshare.’ It was as though it never occurred to him. Poor guy.” — Robin Hauser [0:04:31]

“It just really struck me that they were missing this entire demographic by not actually approaching women.” — Robin Hauser [0:05:00]

“The reality is that we all take on a lot. So we need to divide and conquer at times, to be most efficient.” — Robin Hauser [0:08:05]

“We live longer than men. Even if you live a full life, chances are that a woman’s going to live eight years at the end of her life on her own.” — Robin Hauser [0:08:33]

“90% of women who are widowed or divorced changed financial planners or advisors within the first year.” — Robin Hauser [0:11:09]

“Because of women’s patience and their sensibilities to risk, they tend to make better investment decisions.” — Robin Hauser [0:13:13]

“We violate societal norms of what it is to be a likable woman when we are negotiating hard for ourselves.” — Robin Hauser [0:16:54]

“There’s no reason that you can’t learn in high school the positive and negative impacts of compounding interest.” — Robin Hauser [0:20:00]

“When you take two things that tend to have the stereotype to be very male-centric, I think it stands to reason that there are less women there.” — Robin Hauser [0:26:40]

“I do think that it’s hard to be what you can’t see.” — Robin Hauser [0:27:18]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody, Tim Ulbrich here. Thank you for listening to the YFP podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, I had the pleasure of sitting down with award-winning director and producer, Robin Hauser, to talk about her most recent documentary, Savvy, which explores why it’s critical for women to understand and take control of their personal finances. During the show, we discuss the main obstacles for women to take control of their finances, why women typically outperform men with investing, and why negotiation skills are essential for women to embrace as it relates to the financial plan.

Before we hear from today’s sponsor and then jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 250 households in 50 plus states. YFP Planning offers fee-only, high touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacies achieve financial freedom. Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Robin Hauser.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:17] TU: Today’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast is brought to you by the American Pharmacists Association. APHA has partnered with your financial pharmacies to deliver personalized financial education benefits for APHA members. Throughout the year, APHA will be hosting a number of exclusive webinars covering topics like student loan debt, payoff strategies, home buying, investing, insurance needs and much more. Join APHA now to gain premier access to these educational resources and to receive discounts on YFP products and services. You can join the APHA at a 25 percent discount by visiting pharmacies.com/join and using the coupon code YFP. Again that’s pharmacist.com/join and using the coupon code YFP.

Well, I’m really excited to welcome on this week’s podcast, Robin Hauser, who’s the award-winning director and producer of documentaries CODE: Debugging the Gender Gap, Bias, Savvy, Running for Jim, made to illuminate causes about which she is passionate. Those include the gender gap in tech, unconscious bias, equality and financial savviness. Robin’s work has carried her around the world, from the TED and TEDx stage to the White House, NASA’s Kennedy Space Center, and conferences worldwide, speaking about mitigating bias in artificial intelligence, The Likability Dilemma, Diversity Inclusion, Financial Wellness and Gender Equality. A self-described disruptor, Robin is committed to provoking thought to address the most important socio-economic issues that we face today. Robin, welcome to the YFP podcast.

[00:02:50] RH: Thanks, Tim. I’m happy to be here.

[00:02:52] TU: I’m really excited to have you on the show and to dig into the documentary that you helped produce, Savvy. This came from a friend of mine who let me know about the documentary. I’m so glad that she did, because I think it’s going to be an incredible resource for the YFP community and, of course, for pharmacists and others even beyond. I want to start with a story, Robin, that you shared in your 2019 TED talk (that we’ll link to in the show notes). That TED talk was called, “The Likability Dilemma for Women Leaders.”

You share a story when you’re on the ski resort and a man approached you and asked you if you’re with a husband or a fiancée. You said, “No” and started to head back toward the lift, and your curiosity got the better part of you and you decided that you were going to follow up and have a conversation. Take us there and tell us what happened at that moment.

[00:03:43] RH: Right. This is such a good example to me of unconscious bias, right? I’m walking through the ski resort. I’ve got a pair of skis on my shoulder. This man, he was young, probably late twenties/early thirties, just came up to me and said, “Hey, excuse me, are you with a fiancée or a husband?” I said, “No.” He said, “Oh, okay.” Sort of like, okay, never mind. So I kept walking and I thought, this is—wait. I’ve got to find out why he asked me that. I turned around and walked back to him and I said, “Hey, I’m just curious. Just wondering why you asked me if I was with a man?” He said, “Oh, because we’re selling timeshares.” That gave me pause. Then I looked at him and I said, “So you don’t sell to women?” He said, “Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. Well, we could. Yeah. Are you interested?” I said, “Well, no, not really.” I said, “You do know that women have pocketbooks too, right? Women can buy condos or can join a timeshare.”

It was as though it never occurred to him. Poor guy, he’s just trying to do his job. But I think that it’s the way they trained him. to go for probably the average (which is fine) couples that are together, heterosexual couples, and ask the guy, because, usually, it’s the man handling the purse strings and making long term or investment decisions. It just really struck me that they were missing this entire demographic by not actually approaching women.

[00:05:09] TU: You shared another story in that same TEDx talk where you had a cocktail party and you asked the man about his line of business, and he said he was in the fintech business. You said, “What type?” He said, “Well, it’s complicated.” I think it’s just another example of what you just mentioned there. My question for you is, why do women often carry this implicit bias that women don’t understand finance or they’re not involved in the finances? Where does that come from?

[00:05:33] RH: Well, and I just want to point out that these are, likely, very well-intended men. When this man said to me, “Oh, it’s complicated,” he did definitely say it in a dismissive way. What I was curious about is, had I been a man, how he said that to me. Would he still have said, “Oh, it’s complicated?” Or would he have said, “Well, actually, we’re a white bank and we’re raising 10 million for a first fund” or whatever, and gone into details about it. But he just assumed—and maybe it’s because I’m a woman, maybe because I’m blond. I don’t know—but he just made this assumption that it would be probably too complicated. Then, my response to him was, “Try me. You might be surprised. I actually might be able to understand you and the concept of whatever your fintech deal is.”

A lot of it is stereotypes. I mean, it’s really interesting that in our society—our society dictates that finance is male territory. If you look back over the years, that’s how it’s been. So, even if a woman handles the lunch money or the day-to-day grocery money, it doesn’t mean that she’s involved in long term financial planning. It doesn’t mean that she’s necessarily involved in, how much are you saving? Who’s your mortgage with? What debt do you even have? I mean, these are questions you might not be able to answer.

[00:06:49] TU: Yeah. Just the point of vulnerability here for a moment. My wife and I had this conversation not too long ago, where just what you said there—my wife stays home. We’ve got four boys, just phase of life we’re in. She, day-to-day, is spending money on the groceries, activities, home schooling things. She has a much closer look on the financials day-to-day than I do. But long-term planning, I was really taking a lot of that under my wing. We really identified this disconnect between the long-term planning and what was happening day-to-day. We said, “Really, if anything you should be in charge and empowered in the financial plan. Obviously, we both need to be involved.”

I think that’s a very common thing that can happen. We really felt like it was a great moment to take a step back and say, “Sure, there’s the issues where if something were to happen to one of us, do we both make sure we have a good understanding of the whole plan?” But just objectively, day-to-day, week-to-week, month-to-month, year-to-year, especially in the phase that were life that we’re in, it just makes sense that she would really be taking the lead in what we’re working on financially.

[00:07:49] RH: Well, that’s right. When you think about, look, we’re all really busy, right? Division of labor in a partnership, in a marriage, is important. You don’t both need to always take the kids to school. You don’t both need to walk the dog together. I mean, if you can, that’s wonderful, that’s fabulous. But the reality is that, we all take on a lot. So, we need to divide and conquer at times, to be most efficient.

My point is, that’s not what we need to do with money. With money—when it comes to money, and planning money and understanding personal finance, it’s something that we need to at least collaborate on once a month, so that we know. That’s exactly right, as you said. Here are the reasons that women are so vulnerable. Number one, we live longer than men. Even if you live a full life, chances are that a woman’s going to live eight years at the end of her life on her own. We earn less money because we spend more time out of the workforce; therefore, we have less Social Security. And we earn less. We earn $0.80 to the dollar that a man makes.

This is why 80 percent of women, 65 and older, live in poverty (80 percent more than men). That’s astounding. I mean, that’s a problem. Women need to get involved with personal finance, take the reins of their money, and really understand how to grow their wealth. So that if they did or when they do end up on their own, they’ll be able to handle it.

[00:09:13] TU: Which is a great call to action. Our communities, I mentioned before, we hit record, the pharmacy profession is predominantly more women than men, especially as of late with graduates over the last 20 years or so. Such a good call to action and reinforcement for our community. So, the Savvy Documentary addresses why women across the board often take a passive role or give up their role in managing their finances. You say, particularly in millennial. Obviously, there’s many factors as to why, but what do you feel like is the greatest obstacle or two for women being able to take control of their finances?

[00:09:46] RH: Probably intimidation. I think what happens is that—I mean, the financial industry was built by men for men, not on purpose to exclude women. It’s just that’s the way it was when Wall Street was being created. It was men that was handling that, that organized that, right? So, along with that comes this sense of ambient belonging. We’re using a lot of acronyms, ETFs, SEP, your IRA, what do these things mean? Even very well-educated, very intelligent women can feel marginalized and can feel intimidated if they haven’t kept up and if they don’t understand.

Especially now with technology and the way fintech is working. There’s all sorts. I mean, cryptocurrency, there’s all sorts of new terminologies. It takes you no effort to keep up with what does this all mean, right? So, I think that that’s probably the biggest hurdle is this intimidation factor, thinking, “Oh, boy, I really should have kept up with this all these years and I haven’t. So now I’m behind and I don’t even know. It’s overwhelming. I don’t know how to catch up. I don’t even know how to start.”

Often the woman who is busy with kids and probably her own job and volunteer hours and everything else, doesn’t make the time to go to the financial planner with her spouse. Therefore, she doesn’t really have a great relationship with that person. 90 percent of women who are widowed or divorced changed financial planners or advisors within the first year. What does that tell you? That tells you that women are not relating to the financial advisor or the financial advisor doesn’t really understand the plights or the issues that women face when it comes to money, and they’re not really working to maintain their female clients.

[00:11:35] TU: Yeah. Perhaps weren’t invested in that relationship together or a part of the decision making for that relationship to begin with. It’s one of the reasons, when we’re talking with individuals that are looking for planning services, if it’s a situation where it’s a spouse or a significant other, but folks are doing that together, both parties need to be present from jump street.

Now, as time goes on and maybe that schedules get busy, maybe it’s not realistic that, for every single meeting, two people are always there. Upfront decision making, understanding the goals, the priorities, the issues, it’s so important to have both individuals that are involved. One of the things that you highlight in the documentary, that I thought was fascinating, is the statistic that when women invest, whether that’s hedge fund managers, mutual fund managers, or individually, they outperform men by about 1 percent annually.

When I saw that, we preach and teach on this podcast, that 1% really matters. Our listeners know that in terms of a compound effective 1 percent over time, whether that’s in returns or perhaps fees or a combination of both, so when I see 1 percent, that matters, that’s significant. Why is this? What’s behind this? Tell us more.

[00:12:42] RH: Yeah. I think it’s one basis point a year, which corresponds to about 1 percent. I think what that is, is women are more risk aware. They’re not more risk averse. They’re more risk aware. So, women understand the risks involved in investing. They might pay a little bit more attention into being well diversified, to not jump into something that sounds like it’s a really good investment but could have a huge negative impact on a portfolio if it were to go wrong. So, because of that, because of women’s patience and their sensibilities to risk, they tend to make better investment decisions.

[00:13:22] TU: Yeah. That, of course, compounds over time. We know when you look at simulations of portfolios, if you’re able to mitigate the volatility of a portfolio, but take on appropriate risks of the long term, you’re going to see really good returns, so that makes sense. The other aspect that I’ve seen, in my own situation, and a pharmacist I talk with (all across the country, the men that are pharmacist that listen may not like me calling them out), but there tends to be a little bit more overconfidence that I see in terms of— certainly there’s varying levels of education—but is there an openness and a receptiveness to learn and to have someone come alongside of you to be able to advise, but also to keep your accountability? I know that’s a big generalization, of course, but I think there’s a different level of receptiveness that may come to that as well.

[00:14:09] RH: Well, there’s no doubt that there’s a confidence gap when it comes to women and to girls. This is just something that we tend to suffer from, right? There have been some really interesting studies, and in catalyst of the study several years ago that showed ten different qualifications that you would need, whether you’re a woman or a man, to apply for a job. Men tended to apply with confidence if they had even just 60 percent of the qualifications, right? Women even who had 100 percent of the qualifications still were not 100 percent confident that they would get the job or that they qualified for the job. So, there’s a big difference in physiologically. Is that because of testosterone? Maybe.

What it says is that we need to push ourselves as women. We need to push ourselves to become more confident, to take on investing, to decide that we’re going to take that promotion in order to stay on a good career trajectory, because otherwise, I don’t know that we’ll ever feel 100 percent confident that we’re ready for that next step. But when we do take it, we perform well, right? So, it’s just a matter of feeling confident and understanding that we can take that risk.

[00:15:24] TU: Yeah. As you challenge the women to lean into that confidence and be comfortable taking some of that risk, I would challenge the men listening to really ask themselves, “Am I perhaps overconfident in the financial plan? What are the opportunities for learning and improvement and perhaps a different perspective as well?” Robin, you also touched on in the film Negotiation Skills, a topic we’ve talked about in this podcast before, specifically around credit card negotiation, salary negotiation. Why is this so important for women to develop and refine, and why do you think it’s something that many women may shy away from?

[00:15:55] RH: Well, I think we shy away from it, because the confidence gap, what we just talked about. But negotiating is a really interesting thing, because what happens is that women and men, when we negotiate, women tend to outperform men in negotiations, but only when women are negotiating on behalf of somebody else. When we negotiate for ourselves, we are not as successful. Why is that? Well, it’s because in our society, women are supposed to be especially, a good woman, right, is supposed to be supportive, deferential. We are not necessarily rewarded when we come across as overly confident, overly assertive, decisive, right? But those are things that men actually are rewarded for, because they are seen as leadership skills in men more than they are in women.

This comes into this likability dilemma. But when it comes to negotiating, it’s fascinating, because women, we violate societal norms of what it is to be a likable woman when we are negotiating hard for ourselves. We come across as being selfish and self-centered and maybe even greedy, right? Which is ridiculous, but those qualities, we tend to tolerate more in men and expect more of in men than in women. So, what does that mean? Women have to often come to the table, negotiate and give examples of why they need money, which is interesting. Why they would need a higher salary? Those are things that men aren’t burdened with as much. I think that if you’re an employer, I think we need to pay attention to this. We need to understand.

If you want to retain women, if you want women to rise in your company, we need one: to push them to take promotions. Two, understand that it’s going to be harder for her to ask for a salary raise, even though she has earned it and deserves it. So, we need to be aware of that. We need to also be aware of the fact that women know how we’re perceived when we negotiate. So, we are careful about how we negotiate in what we do. The reason we need to continue to negotiate successfully regardless is because otherwise the pay gap widens.

[00:18:09] TU: Yep. That’s where my mind is just going around with the pay gap and I appreciate the call to action to the employers that are listening. So important to be aware of it and to be taken action appropriately, especially in a field like pharmacy where we have great flexibility, where pharmacists may through different seasons of life, cutback hours or increase and then take back hours or overtime, depending on family needs and other needs, which is a great benefit, but also can be a challenge if you’re stepping out and into the workforce to make sure that that pay differential is not widening over time.

I think the responsibility certainly lies in part on the employer, also in the individual, to be able to effectively negotiate for themselves and to be confident in doing that. It’s a great, great piece. We often, on this show, talk about the lack of financial literacy available to pharmacists while they’re in pharmacy school. I know financial literacy education is a big topic, one I’m passionate about, that really should start as early as possible and be as longitudinal as possible. This is really striking for our profession, where we have new graduates coming out on average with about $170,000 in student loan debt. Because of the lack of financial literacy of education, I think it’s easy to make missteps along the way.

My question here is, were there any key lessons that you took away from the documentary, in the preparation of the documentary, that really focuses on helping to improve financial literacy among women? Even if it’s access or interest, how do we overall raise the level of financial literacy in education and make it one that is accessible of interest and also is able to be action oriented?

[00:19:46] RH: Well, and this is for men and women, we need to have relatable financial education courses in school and in high school even. I mean, I’m even a proponent for starting them age appropriately in grade school. But there’s no reason that you can’t learn in high school the positive and negative impacts of compounding interest for example. You need to understand that you can’t just— that you need a credit card. First of all, you need a credit card in order to establish good credit.

In fact, when you get to college and you’re going to rent an apartment, they’re going to check your credit score. S,o you need to establish a credit score by having a credit card and yet paying off the minimum. Nobody teaches us how to use credit cards, right? Unless we’re having to have parents that teaches these things. Otherwise, you, probably everybody, that comes out of school comes out of the pharmacist training and school gets, what, maybe three different credit card invitations a month?

[00:20:40] TU: At least.

[00:20:41] RH: Yeah. At least, if not a week, right? I mean, it’s ridiculous. Yet in any of those, unless you’re going to— even if you read the fine print, does anybody stop and say, “ut here, let me actually teach you how to use this.” Because paying the minimum is not enough. Paying the minimum means you’re actually going to be paying interest, right?

[00:20:58] TU: Yeah. Lot of interest.

[00:20:58] RH: Interest is accruing, a lot of interest. Some of those credit cards, those initial credit cards, are over 25 percent, so that’s huge. I think that’s essential for men and for women. We need to know what our credit score is. We need to pay off the total balance on a credit card every single month. We need to use less than 10 percent usage of it in order to have the highest credit score rating. But these are things that nobody teaches us, right? I think that’s important. Then I also think that, yes, whether you’re in business school, whether you’re coming out of pharmaceutical school. There’s no reason that there can’t be an education or finance course that’s specific to your industry, right? I think that that’s something that we’re owed, especially if you’re going to end up with $170,000 in student loans debt.

[00:21:43] TU: Yeah. I think we’re starting to see momentum among this. I think there’s other health professions I would give kudos to. I think medicine has done this well, from an association colleges standpoint. Veterinary medicine has done this well, from an association colleges standpoint. I think what we need immediate past is the stigma and the idea that this is a doctorate level education and personal finance doesn’t belong. It does belong, right. Because we know the connection between financial wellness and one’s ability to be a clinician and to work effectively in their role. Those things are very well connected. So, I think we’re starting to see momentum in our profession around this topic, which is very exciting.

Of course, for folks that are listening and have kids at home, what a great opportunity to just begin conversations as early as you possibly can. These come up all the time if you watch and listen for them. I remember being with my oldest son, who’s now about to be 11, probably when he was five, maybe six, and we’re at the grocery store and he just asked me a question once at checkout. He was like, “Oh, so dad, you just swipe the card and then you get the groceries. Is that how it works? You just swipe the card and you get what you need?” I was like, oh, my gosh, what a great teaching moment, about how does money go from work into a bank account. There’s not physical cash, right?

This is such an incredible learning moment, but that is a foreign concept. If a child gets money from a gift or from work and it ends up online, but I don’t see it in front of me, but it’s in an account. What? What is that? What does that mean? So, I think just such a great opportunity to be having these conversations, if we’re in a position to do that.

[00:23:18] RH: Yeah. It’s so interesting. The psychology behind all that too, right? We are just swiping. I mean, it’d be interesting to see how your son would react if you pulled out your wallet and paid in cash, which none of us do anymore for the groceries, as opposed to swiping that card, right? There’s something that they talk about called a pain of paying. I think that’s really interesting, because it is much less painful to pay with a credit card. It’s more painful when we see our balance at the end of the month than we have to say, “Okay, pay that off.” But in terms of swiping versus taking out a few twenties or fifties from our wallet, that hits us a little bit more in terms of the pain.

Let me tell you, I mean, with Venmo. What’s Venmo? I mean, that it’s crazy, right? There’s just this fictitious balance. I mean, it is a balance, actually, but you almost forget that it’s tied to your checking account and there seems to be no pain in that at all, which is why it’s so easy to spend.

[00:24:15] TU: Yeah. One of things my boys will often ask me now, I guess I’m glad that they’re comfortable asking the question, but they often ask, “How much does that cost you, Dad? How much is that cost you?” Sometimes your reaction is like, “Oh, my gosh, I had no idea.” Or “Oh, that’s not bad.” I’m like, “Well, it’s still a lot of money and let’s have a conversation about work.” But you also want to create a scarcity mindset. So, there’s a delicate balance as you’re having these conversations with kids about money, but there’s things they can relate to, right?

If they get a dollar or $3, or whatever the tooth fairy pays now nowadays for a tooth, they understand what that is. If they can understand something cost $20 or $50 that might really resonate with them and be able to put their arms around exactly what is the amount of something. And, to your comment about the pain of paying, it becomes real when they can really see the tangible dollars that are at play. One of the other things I wanted to ask you about is it feels like, to me, there’s a significant inequality of who is leading the financial education out there. One of the reasons I was so glad to see this documentary specifically geared towards empowering women around money, and obviously the work that you’ve done here is— it feels like if you look at the traditional education around financial topics, it is largely led by men.

Now I think that’s shifting what’s happening, but let me give one example. I’m going down the rabbit hole right now. I’m learning about cryptocurrency. One, because it’s a topic I feel like I’ve got a baseline knowledge in, but as we get more questions, I want to, myself, become more knowledgeable. I’m digesting YouTube videos and blogs and books, and I’m pretty far into the journey. I can maybe think of on one hand (if even that many) women that are leading the conversation and the education around cryptocurrency. Well, that’s one example. I think it sheds light into other areas of the finances, whether we’re talking about the alphabet soup of retirement planning, or estate planning, or tax planning. It feels so heavy on the male side of the equation as it relates to financial education literacy. Am I reading that correctly?

[00:26:17] RH: Well, yeah. I think so, because I mean, there are many more male financial advisors than there are women. This is something that there’s a big effort to change in trying to get more women into financial advising, but I think especially when it comes to crypto, and why? Well, because crypto’s a merge of finance (which we know is male oriented) and computer science, which is male oriented. When you take two things that tend to have the stereotype to be very male-centric, I think it stands to reason that there are less women there. Again, back to that idea of ambient belonging. I mean, if you just don’t feel you belong there, if it doesn’t feel like home when you’re—so if a woman goes to a cryptocurrency conference and she’s one of the only or the few women there, she’s going to feel like she doesn’t belong, right?

It’s really hard to pioneer and to push through being the minority, and many women have. Same goes for people of color, right? I do think that it’s hard to be what you can’t see. So, we need to get more women into finance and into crypto, into computer science and sciences in general. I love hearing that pharmaceuticals has a stronghold of women, that is fabulous. But this is what we need to do in order to change the stereotype.

[00:27:39] TU: Well, this is great, Robin. I really appreciate the conversation. I would encourage folks to make sure that they check out the Documentary Savvy. We’ll link to it in the show notes. Where is the best place that folks can go to learn more about you and to follow the journey and the work that you’re doing?

[00:27:53] RH: Well, finishlinefeaturefilms.com is our website. We will list different screenings of Savvy, whether it’s film festivals or whether we’re doing public screenings, you’ll find them listed there. So, keep an eye on that website.

[00:28:06] TU: Awesome. We’ll link to that in the show notes. Thank you so much, Robin, for your time. I appreciate it.

[00:28:10] RH: Thank you, Tim.

[OUTRO]

[00:28:11] TU: Before we wrap up today’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, I want to again thank our sponsor, the American Pharmacists Association. APhA is every pharmacist’s ally, advocating on your behalf for better working conditions per PBM practices, and more opportunities for pharmacists to provide care. Make sure to join a bolder APhA to gain premier access to financial educational resources and to receive discounts on YFP products and services. You can join APhA at a 25 percent discount by visiting pharmacies.com/join and using the coupon code YFP. Again that pharmacies.com/join, using the coupon code YFP.

[DISCLAIMER]

[00:28:50] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for your informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment, or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation, or offer to buy or sell any investment, or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on this podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist, unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you for your support to the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest your week.

[END]

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YFP 259: Building a Medical Writing Business with Megan Freeland

Posted on June 9, 2022November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

Building a Medical Writing Business with Megan Freeland

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Megan Freeland, PharmD, talks about talk about her career path in medical writing, the types of health content writing that might interest pharmacists, and how she created the Health Professionals to Health Writers program.

About Today’s Guest

For the longest, Megan’s ultimate career goal was to become a public health pharmacist working for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. She accomplished that goal on multiple occasions — supporting divisions related to medication safety, health communications, and emergency preparedness and response — but realized she was missing the opportunity to apply a creative flair to her writing career.

Megan set out on her own to build a health content marketing company. Through StockRose Creative, LLC, Megan supports innovative health organizations, helping them use the power of words to reach their target customers and clients and turn them into raving fans. She uses a strategic approach to develop culturally-relevant content for digital health companies and health information websites. At the same time, Megan runs the Health Professionals to Health Writers program, which helps pharmacists and other health care providers learn how to replace a portion of their income through freelance health content writing.

Earlier this year, Megan also began lending her talents to an in-house communications team for the nation’s leading provider of sexual and reproductive health care and education.

When she’s not writing, reading about writing, or teaching others how to write, she’s binging podcasts and new music, scoping out the latest Peloton apparel drops, and laughing hysterically with — or at — her two young children and husband.

Episode Summary

In this episode, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, is joined by Megan Freeland, a pharmacist, entrepreneur, and health content writing expert. Megan is the creator of StockRose Creative LLC, where she supports health organizations, helping them use the power of words to reach their target customers and clients. In this discussion, Megan shares how she unexpectedly found herself with a career path in medical writing after accomplishing her ultimate career goal of becoming a public health pharmacist working for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Megan explains the types of health content writing pharmacists may be interested in pursuing and why many individuals get started in health content writing. She also shares how she saw the opportunity to create the Health Professionals to Health Writers program, helping pharmacists and other health care providers learn how to replace a portion of their income through freelance health content writing. Throughout the episode, listeners will discover how Megan’s passion for public health has been pivotal in the decisions that brought her to her current position. From volunteer work in healthcare centers, fellowships at the CDC, and sitting on the SNPhA board to an unexpected pregnancy, opportunities with the FDA, and more, Megan educates the listener on the art of life management while pursuing your dreams.

Key Points From This Episode

Understanding Megan Freeland’s career by looking at her interests and background in pharmacy.
How to apply knowledge and experience in pharmacy to the public health system.
What opportunities Megan took to further explore public health training and experience.
The hard journey she took to end up at her dream job in the CDC.
Her passion and motivation for the intersection of public health and writing.
The influence Megan’s family and community had on her passion for public health care.
Understanding the types of medical writing and how to pursue one.
A guide to beginning your career as a freelance health content writer.
Megan’s ideas, goals, and motivations behind StockRose Creative.
A look into how Megan has grown her career on LinkedIn.
Advice for those starting to pursue their content writing careers.

Highlights

“All of the opportunities that I was taking part in to try to enhance my candidacy for being in a public health space, all of those roles and opportunities involved writing in some way.” — Megan Freeland, PharmD [0:04:33]

“People are thinking about their own experiences and their own limitations when they are thinking about what you are or are not capable of doing. Even though they have the best intentions, those ideas and those preconceived notions get projected onto you.” — Megan Freeland, PharmD [0:15:53]

“It wasn’t just my individual, nuclear, or immediate family’s health conditions that I was aware of, but we were all aware of everybody’s business. I saw how important it was for people to have good healthcare and good health information.” — Megan Freeland, PharmD [0:19:03]

“I think about the environment, information, and access to healthcare and good health information, how critical that is to the health of communities — as a black woman in the world, that level of awareness that comes with that lived experience as well.” — Megan Freeland, PharmD [0:19:37]

“You are not necessarily a reflection of the people who are trying to learn from you.” — Megan Freeland, PharmD [0:39:36]

“Your life is your own, no one else is responsible for what you do. No one else has to live with your decisions or your choices — know that you are deserving of having the professional trajectory, having the life, having the career, having the whatever that you decide you want.” — Megan Freeland, PharmD [0:42:37]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I had a chance to sit down with Megan Freeland, pharmacist, entrepreneur, and health content writing expert. Megan is the Founder of StockRose Creative, where she supports healthcare organizations, helping them use the power of words to reach their target customers and clients and turn them into raving fans.

A few of my highlights from the show include Megan talk about how she unexpectedly found herself in a career path in medical writing after accomplishing her ultimate career goal to become a public health pharmacist working for the CDC, the types of health content writing that pharmacist may be interested in, pursuing and the main reason that individuals get started in this field and how she saw an opportunity to create the health professionals to health writers program where she helps pharmacists and other healthcare providers learn how to replace a portion of their income through freelance health content writing.

Before we jump into the show, I recognized that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 household in 40 plus states. YFP planning offers fee-only, high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about working one-on-one with a certified financial planner that may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Megan Freeland, Creator of StockRose Creative.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[0:01:42.8] TU: This week’s podcast episode is brought to you by Insuring Income. Insuring Income is your source for all things term life insurance and own occupation disability insurance. Insuring Income has a relationship with America’s top-rated term life insurance and disability insurance companies, so pharmacists like you can easily find the best solutions for your personal situation. To better serve you, Insuring Income reviews all applicable carriers in the marketplace for your desired coverage, supports clients in all 50 states, and makes sure all of your questions get answered.

To get quotes and apply for term life or disability insurance, see sample contract from disability carriers or learn more about these topics, visit insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist. Again, that’s insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:34.4] TU: Megan, welcome to the podcast.

[0:02:36.0] MF: Hello, Tim. I’m so excited to be here with you, thanks for having me.

[0:02:39.8] TU: I too am excited. We had a chance to connect several months ago and I’ve been excited to do this interview to share your story, your entrepreneurial journey with the YFP community. Let’s start off by hearing about your background, where did you go to pharmacy school, and what ultimately was some of your interest in going into pharmacy in the first place.

[0:02:57.6] MF: Great question and thank you for orienting me with this question, because whenever I get that background question, I’m like, “Where do we start?” I went to undergrad at Emory University and then I stayed in Atlanta for pharmacy school to attend Mercer University. When I went into pharmacy, I did not necessarily go into the field with the intention of practicing in the traditional sense.

When I was still in undergrad, I was trying to decide whether I wanted to pursue public health or whether I wanted to pursue pharmacy and I was encouraged by family members, my mom namely, to go into pharmacy because she was frankly disappointed that I decided that I did not want to go to medical school anymore and her thought was, “Well, at least, if you go to pharmacy school, you still come out with a doctorate degree.”

So I listened to mom and I chose to go to pharmacy school but I still had that public health bug in the back of my mind and so, my goal was to figure out, “Okay, how can I apply the experience, the knowledge that I gained through the pharmacy program to a public health setting?” How can I become essentially, a public health pharmacist when I leave?

Obviously, didn’t have a whole lot of guidance or examples to look to because at that time and even still now, there weren’t a whole lot of people who were kind of going down that public health path with the pharmacy background. So what was very much four year period of trial and error and kind of figuring out where I landed and how I could make that happen and what I noticed was that all of the opportunities that I was taking part in to try to enhance my candidacy for being in a public health space, all of those roles and opportunities involved writing in some way.

So, once I noticed that pattern, I decided, “Okay, well, this is kind of naturally the course that I’m going along, so I’ll just keep doing this and see where it takes me.”

[0:04:56.8] TU: It’s really interesting, Megan. I think it’s rare that someone goes into the pharmacy degree with a thought of a non-traditional career path these days. One example that I am passionate about is that my hope is that we can begin to see the PharmD education as being more of a gateway to many different opportunities and you know, not just one or two different pathways which folks may typically associate with.

So I think that’s really neat to hear that someone entered in with that non-traditional path and let me ask you a follow-up to that then, as you went into pharmacy school with a specific interest in public health, which isn’t a surprise, right? Emory University is known for their public health training, what specific opportunities did you look for in pharmacy school to further explore and build upon that interest?

Was there an organizations, was there specific internships, or rotations you’re able to get more experience, tell us more about how you’re able to foster that interest during pharmacy school?

[0:05:51.3] MF: Yeah, I love that question. And yes, that was not coincidental at all, actually, I’m originally from Columbia, South Carolina, and in the 9th grade, my magnet program, we took a field trip to Atlanta, and during that trip, we toured Emory and we also toured the CDC, which is right next door to Emory. So in the ninth grade, I decided, when I go to college, I’m going to Emory University and I’m going to work for the CDC.

So, it kind of was like a full circle situation but when I got to pharmacy school, I noticed that a lot of the extracurricular opportunities, the clubs, the programs, they were all pharmacy-related and so for me, I felt like, “Yes, I could do these things but will they really help me in the public health setting?” I’m going to have the degree, that takes care of my pharmacy qualifications.

I felt like anything that I was doing outside of going to class and taking tests needed to be more specific to public health in some way and so because of that, I was actually looking for opportunities outside of my school’s ecosystem because those were not what I felt like I needed to increase my candidacy for public health.

I looked at community organizations, I ended up volunteering at a center called, The Feminist Woman’s Health Center in Atlanta. They do a lot of education around sexual and reproductive health and I ended up volunteering on their health and education training committee for all four years of pharmacy school.

I looked into the CDC to see what types of internships or fellowships they offer that pharmacy students were eligible for. So, the summer after my second year of pharmacy school, I completed a CDC fellowship, it was called the Emerging Infectious Diseases Fellowship and it lasted for nine weeks, you were paired with a mentor, you actually worked on CDC teams, worked on a project, presented, everything.

I traveled to Panama for an epidemiology investigation in a Panamanian hospital. Those are like two of the core examples but any other time that I was engaging in extracurriculars, I made sure that they were related to public health in some way. One more that I just thought of, I was a part of SNPhA, the Student National Pharmacist Association and I participated in some of their community service projects because again, those are more public health facing educational opportunities.

I always had that lens and that perspective whenever I was doing anything outside of going to class, taking tests, and trying to get my degree.

[0:08:34.8] TU: I love the intentional and I hope if we have any students listening, they go back and rewind and listen to that because the message I hear there is that sometimes we got to get outside of the walls of the college or pharmacy to explore other opportunities and again, the PharmD can be used in so many different ways and I think your story here is a great example of that but sometimes it takes some creative thinking and it takes some initiative to see what those opportunities may be.

Tell us more one of the things you shared to me before is that you know, working for the CDC was a dream for you and you’re ultimately able to achieve that. Tell us more about what happened right after you graduated from pharmacy school. So it was during school, you identify this growing interest in public health, you see the connection to writing and then you have an opportunity to do an industry, fellowship as well as some work with the CDC thereafter, tell us more about those experiences.

[0:09:22.0] MF: Yeah, as I was going through pharmacy school and kind of collect these experiences that I hoped would be helpful for me in the future. I was also trying to think about what the immediate step post-graduation would be. My goal was to go straight back to the CDC after graduation. Those are the opportunities that I was most excited about and most intentional about but it wasn’t working out.

I wasn’t getting any opportunities that would be timely for me to start right after graduation and so I said, “Okay, if I can’t get to the CDC right now, what are other opportunities that I could take part in that were still public health-related that would still help me get back to CDC down the line?” So I looked into industry fellowships and I was specifically attracted to one program in particular because it had an FDA rotation as a component of the fellowship.

I graduated in 2015. So, at that time, it was one of the only industry fellowships that had any type of public health rotation as a part of it. It wasn’t like I had all of these choices. I did apply to many more programs because I would have made it work but this one, in particular, was of interest to me because of the FDA component and so that’s the fellowship program that I ended up getting accepted into.

Ironically, I got pregnant unexpectedly during the first year of my fellowship and so I never actually made it to the FDA rotation of the program. I was in the middle of my second rotation when I found out I was pregnant. What happened at that point was that I was located in New Jersey, the portion of my fellowship I was in at the time was the medical information rotation for Johnson Scientific Affairs, which is the pharmaceutical arm of Johnson & Johnson.

I was in New Jersey and I’m like, “Okay, well, I need to move back home” where my now husband but boyfriend at the time was and we have to get ready for it to be parents and so, I’m like, “Well, that also means I need a job because I can’t do my rotation from Atlanta” you know, maybe if it was 2020 or 2021, things are different now, maybe that would have worked out but at that time, basically, we just brought my rotation at one year instead of two.

I went back to the CDC drawing board, I was looking for fellowships, I was also applying to a whole bunch of other jobs mind you because like, this was survival at this point in time. It wasn’t about my preferences, I just needed a job in Atlanta but I was also looking for CDC opportunities and I saw this opportunity that was in the same department that I had completed my fellowship program in during pharmacy school.

I reached out to my mentor from that fellowship to ask her if she knew anything about the position, she wasn’t the hiring manager but she knew the person who was and so she connected me with that person, I went through the application, the interview process, everything and I got that position. I ended up back at the CDC, back at home in Atlanta, preparing for, to become a parent, and a lot of this story that I tell, it’s important for me to say that like, it sounds great now but that’s because I’m reflecting on past experiences, right?

Hindsight feels a lot better but all this journey was not easy. Even during pharmacy school, when I was engaging in all of these non-pharmacy specific projects, it was uncomfortable because I didn’t know if what I was trying to do was actually going to work and I had a lot of people who meant well, advisors, faculty members, in my ear, saying that I needed to go another route.

Similarly, with the fellowship experience, I was very disappointed in myself for not being able to complete my fellowship and I had three preceptors, which meant I had to tell three different people, “Hey, sorry, I’m pregnant and I can’t finish the fellowship” but they were all super supportive and when I got that role back at the CDC, one of my, I probably shouldn’t have favorites but one of my favorite preceptors said, “You should be proud of yourself because this two-year program was supposed to prepare you for a role like the one that you just got, not even nine months into your fellowship.”

“You should feel very proud of yourself.” I burst into tears because I was emotional and it was a lot going on, that really helped me put it into perspective. So that’s how I got back to the CDC. I should also add, the fellowship that I completed was in drug information and the CDC fellowship that I started after the one year of my fellowship was in health communications.

[0:14:10.0] TU: And we’re going to come back to more of the expansion on the interest and writing and where that has led to the work that you’re doing today. I want to come back real quick, Megan. You said something really important which I want – especially if we have any students listening. I want them to hear is that, you were given advice by several folks that I think, probably had good intent that maybe you should consider a different pathway and I can tell you from being in the academic environment for several years, we like very linear pathways, right?

We like very linear pathways where we know this opportunity’s going to lead to that opportunity and your pathway wasn’t necessarily linear in that you were coming in with somewhat of a nontraditional interest. You were getting different experiences but what you were doing is you were planting a lot of seeds and building a lot of relationships that sometimes it takes time for those to grow, right?

To flourish and I just love the passion and the interest that you had and continuing to pursue that, despite perhaps some outside noise of, “Maybe you might consider this and maybe you might consider that” and I think the lesson I hear there is, pursue the interest, plant the seeds, trust he process as you’re continuing to move forward and it might not always feel like one dot is going to connect to the next but I think as you shared in hindsight, you can start to appreciate how some of those things come together.

[0:15:24.3] MF: Absolutely. Trust the process and also trust yourself. One of the people who was encouraging me to do a residency which that’s what everybody was telling me to do, even my mentor at the CDC, understanding that I wanted to follow in her footsteps like once I found her, I was like, “You’re the person who I want to be like” and even knowing what my intention was, she was like, “You know, I really think you should do a residency first” and I’m like, “I hear you,” but what happens is sometimes, people are thinking about their own experiences and their own limitations when they are thinking about what you are or are not capable of doing and even though they have the best intentions, those ideas and those preconceived notions get projected onto you.

It’s really important to trust yourself enough to be able to examine what your thoughts, your preferences, your intentions are as well as the advice from trusted people but then to make your own decision based off of all of that information, including your own desires and intentions.

[0:16:26.9] TU: That’s one of the passion that I have and I’m not going to get on the financial soapbox because I do that in every other episode but that’s one of the challenges I have in our profession is that, they’re so often is the financial pressure of the student loans, the golden handcuffs of that six-figure income that folks that might be thinking about something more nontraditional or not as structured in terms of, “I’m going into residency, I’m going to go into fellowship, I’m going to go make this income” it can just be hard to have the space to explore that when you have those other pressures that are there.

I want to come back and ask you, you’ve really done a nice job I think of outlining this interest that you have in public health and an interest in writing, we’re going to come back and talk more about that but I didn’t ask you, what is the why behind that? Where did that passion come from in this intersection of public health and writing and what really motivates you and inspire you towards the work that you’re doing?

[0:17:14.1] MF: That’s a good question and one that I don’t think about as often. I can say that my interest in writing, I wouldn’t call it a passion at this present time or at the time that it started but my interest in writing actually came from a work study job that I had when I was at Emory. I was lucky enough not to be assigned to like putting books back on the shelves at the library the way a lot of our friends were for work study but I had a job with CancerQuest, which is a patient education website that was associated with Emory’s Winship Cancer Institute, and my role for CancerQuests was basically to update and write a lot of the patient education information that was on the website.

So that was like a huge directory of all these different types of treatments, preventative measures, therapies for different types of cancer and so I had to do a lot of research and write information that could be interpreted by the general public. It was kind of my first taste of health communications but I did not have the language to be able to say, “This is what this is.” I would say, from that point that kind of planted the seed for my interest in medical writing and health communications, although I didn’t realize it until probably a decade later.

Public health, I think that’s just something that has been a part of my experience as a person in the world. Like growing up in Columbia, South Carolina, amongst my family members who dealt with their own personal health issues, we were in a very communal environment. So in my neighborhood, like, my grandmother knew all the people on her street, all the people on her block, we were all kind of family.

Because of that, it wasn’t just my individual, like my nuclear or immediate family’s health conditions that I was aware of but we were kind of all aware of everybody’s business and so I really saw how important it was for people to have good healthcare, good health information and again, I wouldn’t have been able to verbalize this as a child but looking back, all of this information was kind of more abstractly in my brain at that time.

I think that just as I progressed throughout school, like K through 12, undergrad, I started to think more concretely about how environment and information and access to healthcare and good health information how critical that is to the health of communities and I think that also, just kind of as a black woman in the world, that level of awareness that comes with that lived experience as well, public health was just something that kind of called my name.

When I went to that field trip in the 9th grade, and toured the CDC, I think that was probably the first time that I was able to connect the actual field of public health with all of that previous life experience that I just named.

[0:20:13.5] TU: Admittedly Megan, my knowledge related to medical writing, health writing, health content writing, we’ve used our term health communications is pretty elementary and I’ve seen these terms used in different ways, and for folks that are listening, thinking about, “Hey, maybe I’m interested in entering this field” and whatever way that may be, break those terms down a little bit further for us.

What are the differences between those and the types of writing opportunities that folks maybe able to pursue?

[0:20:40.5] MF: So this is a juicy question because there are so many routes that a person could take, depending on what their interest are. So if we kind of backup and go to the most high-level area of this, when we talk about medical writing, like you, many people are using that term, interchangeably. Some people might describe what I do health content writing as medical writing.

It’s not that there is anything wrong in particular with using that language, but, I think what some people don’t realize is that medical wiring is more of an umbrella term that could actually describe a lot of different types of writing. Same thing with health writing. So when I talk about broadly and holistically, this space, you will sometimes hear me say medical and health writing, that’s because those are the broadest terms that describe all of the individual types that come down from that.

When we get to talking about like specific examples, you’ve heard me reference specific examples during this conversation, right? You heard me reference a drug information fellowship, a health communications fellowship, I’m a health content writer, it really depends on who is the audience and what style of writing is being done. Those are like, the two big buckets that can kind of help differentiate the different types of medical writing.

Medical writing, I typically think of those types as writing that’s geared towards a clinical audience, an audience of health professionals, an audience of scientist, it’s typically more formal in nature and the topics are often times more specific to medicine, like actual treatment, prevention, therapies and so some specific types of medical writing would be drug information that adhere to a clinical audience.

Another type would be scientific writing, another type would be regulatory writing. So you will see a lot of regulatory positions at pharmaceutical companies because there are people there who are writing INDs, they’re writing documents that need to go to the FDA or to different regulatory associations, so that’s definitely a type of medical writing. Scientific publications is a type of medical writing.

Medical communications, so these are companies who are sometimes contracted by pharmaceutical companies to create materials, to educate other health professionals, right? So if you want to put together a slide deck or a post of presentation to present at a conference, that’s often happening at medical communications companies. So, all of those are examples of medical writing, which is often times again, a more formal and geared to a clinical or health professions audience.

Then, on the other side of that, you have the other umbrella term of health writing. Health writing, I typically think of as geared to a more lay or general public audience and the topics are not always so scientific or medical. They could be more wellness oriented or more health oriented but health oriented from the standpoint of how does an individual person apply this information to their actual life, not health oriented as in like all of the science of like how this drug works or blah-blah-blah.

Specific examples of health writing are health communications, the fellowship that I mentioned at the CDC. In that position, I was basically like a liaison between our research team and the general public. So when they would come up with their research, I would create fact sheets, blog post, maybe sometimes op-eds, talking points that could go on the website that regular folks could understand.

There is also health journalism, which is when you go to the Washington Post or you go to health magazine, those articles that you see in there, those are forms of health journalism and then my personal favorite, health content writing. We’ll probably dive more into content writing but broadly content writing is information or education that’s presented online in most cases that help someone solve a health problem or answer a health question.

One of the most common ways that content writing becomes visible is when you go to Google, right? If you’re a mom, a new mom at 4:00 in the morning and you baby is not latching and they won’t go to sleep and you go to Google and you say, “Help, my four-month-old isn’t latching” the information that comes up, some of it might be like forums, parent forums but the articles that come up often times those are examples of health content writing because they’re helping you answer a question or solve a health problem that you have.

[0:25:23.7] TU: That was great. I mean, probably the best explanations I’ve heard and I know you have my mind spinning of, “Okay, if I am thinking about this as a potential side hustle or career opportunity, okay, what are the different ways? What might be my strengths or interest?” What would yours that I’d want to pursue? So the examples there were really helpful. I have heard you talk before about three main reasons that folks may get started in medical and health writing.

Those could be number one, they want to influence the public health on a larger scale, number two is to use their degree along with a healthy dose of creativity and number three is to create an additional stream of income outside of their clinical career. My question for you knowing that you coach many other pharmacists and other healthcare professionals that are exploring this area of writing, do you see one of those resonate more than the others or are folks often entering into this space because of all three of those or some combination of them?

[0:26:18.1] MF: That’s a really good question. I think most people have – I will answer this question in two ways, there are people who are interested and then there are people who take the steps to pursue. Those are often two different types of people, so people who are interested of course can have any of those three reasons. It could be relevant but I find that often times the biggest draw is the additional stream of income.

But what happens is once they realize how much work it actually involves to get to the point where they are qualified to be a health content writing, only having the interest of an additional stream of income is not enough. It’s not enough –

[0:26:59.0] TU: It’s not a strong enough why right?

[0:27:00.0] MF: No, it’s not at all because the return on investment yes, could be there because like you can make a whole living out of health content writing and plenty of people do but to get to that point where you can even do that, the time that it takes to learn the skills, to create the portfolio, to go out and find clients, only being motivated by the money is oftentimes not good enough.

The students that I work with and even students, that pharmacists that do decide to pursue health content writing but they choose another route or aren’t necessarily in my program, I find that there is more of that interest in really influencing public health and utilizing their degree in a way that brings them fulfillment and joy and opportunity to actually educate people, which is something that we are often sold on during pharmacy school.

But in reality, in real life once you get out into the workforce, sometimes it’s not really a major piece of what you are able to do in your workspace. So a lot of the students that I work with express to me that of course, they love to have some extra money because you said it earlier, loans and debt and family but what they’re really looking for is a way to find more fulfillment and joy within their profession.

There are lots of side hustles, other opportunities that people could engage in to make money but people don’t necessarily want to let their degree and their education and their experience go. It is not that they don’t love pharmacy or love healthcare, it’s that maybe they don’t love the way that they have to execute it in their full-time roles. So if there’s a way for them to still use the background that they have in a more fulfilling and impactful way, then they’re very into that.

[0:28:50.0] TU: So well said, you know, often I say and feel myself that forward progress and growth is such an important factor for us as individuals and human being, that we have a feeling of growth that we’re developing ourselves and I think for many pharmacists that may be are feeling stuck or they aren’t feeling that growth or they aren’t feeling like they’re using their degree to their full potential, that can be a suffocating feeling.

I often say that side hustle’s income that’s a nice symptom but really what we want to be focusing on I think in part and not overlook is, what’s the motivation, what’s the purpose, what creative outlet is this providing and that’s a hard benefit to measure but don’t underestimate it because it’s so powerful especially if you feel like you’re in a situation where you’re stuck. It’s so powerful to feel like you’re growing, you’re developing and you’re moving forward.

Let me ask you a question I’m sure you get all the time, which is: can I work full-time doing this? Is that a viable pathway to grow a medical writing business?

[0:29:49.3] MF: Yeah, so I’d say that the answer is emphatically yes. When I started out as a freelance health content writer, I had a full-time job. I will do a quick aside to address something that you just brought up in terms of having that source of fulfillment is I was in a job that I did not like. It was my third time at the CDC and it was a regulatory writing job and it was not my most exciting role and so I started blogging on the side just because I needed a creative outlet.

That really helped me when I was in that full-time role that I didn’t like because I had something that was going on that was interesting to me and so that was exactly how I got started as a health content writer. I had a full-time job at the time, it was accidental because I was not yet aware that health content writing was a field and so when I started my blog, it just so happened that a health company saw it and reached out to me and asked if I was right for them.

That was how I first freelance writing opportunity but it wasn’t until a year and nine months later that I actually left my full-time job for that entire year and nine months, I was freelancing on the side. So it’s definitely possible, I would say it is definitely one of the most common approaches. If you are in a position where you are just learning the skill of freelance health content writing, I don’t know what your financials are like.

If you have a couple of tens of thousands in the bank and you can afford to just shut your full-time work down so that you can focus on freelance health content writing, that’s definitely open to you but for most people, it’s going to take time to even get the foundations that you need to be able to get started and then once you start, it’s going to take you some time to get your feet under you and get to the point where you can bring on more and more clients.

So, in most cases, it actually makes sense to start with a full-time job so that you are not reliant upon this income source that you haven’t yet created. So definitely possible, it just takes time management and availability of time as well.

[0:32:02.2] TU: Yeah and I am a firm believer as you kind of were eluding to there that building a business upon the back of a strong personal financial foundation is so important, right? Because you can approach that opportunity with less stress, you can approach that opportunity with confidence and perhaps some folks can manage to make that jump and not to have that stress still if they have additional savings.

But I think for many, having that full-time job will allow them to pursue that opportunity with confidence and to minimize that stress. Talk to us about StockRose Creative, the company that you’ve started and have been growing, talk to us about what it is, how it came to be and what are the services that you offer?

[0:32:38.4] MF: Yeah, so StockRose is the business entity that I created when I decided to go full-time in my health content writing work. Unlike the students that I work with, I did not have real guidance when I got into the health content writing space. I was just out here figuring it out on my own and so because of that, I dabbled in a lot of different types of writing through StockRose before I landed on health content writing solely and before I got even narrower in the specific types of writing services that I was offering through health content writing.

Today, what that looks like is I offer blog writing and video scripting services particularly for digital health companies and especially if those digital health companies have audiences that are primarily black or they have portions of their audiences that are primarily black and the reason for that is because content writing is a very small piece of content marketing. It’s a much broader process and so a part of what you had to do if you’re interested in being a freelance health content writer is you have to understand how that fits into the broader process.

With that, strategy is a part of the process that has to come before writing and sometimes companies, they do not have that strategic part in-house and so I consult with them to say, “Hey, if you have audiences that are black or primarily black, you’re going to have to develop a different content strategy in order to actually have content writers that are writing effectively for those audiences.”

That’s the core service that I provide but it did not start out that way, it was much more lose and difficult to define because I was figuring it out as I went along. So that’s kind of the service part of my company and then the coaching part of my company, I’ll kind of give some context to how that came about. I really sat down one day and thought, “What is the theme of my professional career?”

I’ve had a lot of different roles and they’ve all had writing in common but beyond that, what kind of links everything together? I realized that in all of my past, fighting health misinformation and putting out good health information has been the theme that connects everything together and is what I’m passionate about and what I want to continue doing into the future and so if I want to fight health misinformation, which is getting more rampant by the minute it seems, I am not the only person who can or should be doing that.

There are more people and specifically, healthcare providers who should be doing that. The problem is that most healthcare providers don’t have experience in health content writing or creating online content. It is not because they can’t do it, it’s just because they don’t have the exposure or the experience in order to be able to do it. So the question is, well, how do they get that? Technically, I could hire them.

However, I am not particularly interested in running an agency or managing other writers like that’s just when you get to the point where you’re running an agency, it often takes you out of the actual execution of whatever the service that you’re providing and you become a manager and my passion is about the creation of the health information. So my question was, “Well, how do I help other healthcare professionals become health writers so that they too can be able to counter the misinformation that’s out there?”

I decided that creating this accelerator program called Health Professionals to Health Writers, where there is didactic teaching to make sure people have the foundational knowledge of content marketing that they need, where they are able to create the portfolio of samples that they need to actually get freelance gigs and where they actually build out the business processes they need to know how to go out and secure clients.

That would be the way to help more professionals have the skills and the experience that they need to be freelance health content writers as well. So that’s what my coaching side of StockRose does under the Health Professionals to Health Writers accelerator program.

[0:36:58.0] TU: I love that and I think that aligns so well with your why, right? Of how you got into this in the first place. You talk about fighting misinformation and looking at doing that on a broader scale, the impact of that is you coach up and train up other pharmacists, other healthcare professionals, the impact of that is going to be much greater than your writing alone or even a team or writing if you did go with that approach.

We’ll link in the show notes, that’s stockrosecreative.com, folks can go there. We’re also going to link in the show notes, you have a Health Writing for Health Professionals 101 series on YouTube, and then folks can also learn more about the accelerator program that you mentioned as well, some of the work that you’re doing. I do want to ask you, this is somewhat of an aside, but I think a really cool accomplishment, I’ve been following your work on LinkedIn, and I saw you recently went through the LinkedIn Creator Accelerator Program as a part of the first class of a 100.

First of all, congratulations on that accomplishment, that was fantastic. What did you take away from that program about yourself and about leveraging LinkedIn as a platform to help grow your business?

[0:37:57.2] MF: Thank you, Tim, for the congratulations. That was probably one of my most exciting accomplishments of last year. I was literally in tears when I got the email that I got into the program and I do also have to shoutout Brian Fung, who was the one and only other pharmacist in the first 100 with me, so we had a great time. I think the most important thing that we took away from that experience was how important it is to really be intentional about the content and the information that you’re creating not just on LinkedIn but online in general.

That might sound odd because as a health content writer, that’s exactly what I do but I think the most important part here is thinking about there’s always an audience that you are sharing information to. If you are ever creating any content whether it’s health content or social content or anything, if you are creating that just for you, then you are really missing an opportunity to connect with the people who are following you and watching you and listening to you.

Because they often times have different perceptions, leads, preconceived notions than you do and so, whenever you’re creating content, this applies to health content writing as well, you really have to be less focused on what you think and what you already know and really dive into what your audience thinks, what they do and don’t know so that you can create that content in a way that helps address their questions and helps solve their problems as accurately as possible.

You are not necessarily a reflection of the people who are trying to learn from you. If I were creating content on LinkedIn just for me, I would be going over the heads of so many people because I’ve been a content writer for five years. There are people, pharmacists who are coming across my account who have literally never heard of health content writing before. Students that I’ve worked with are like, “I did not know what this was until I saw your post.”

If I am not keeping that in mind and really trying to get a sense of where people are, then I am missing the point and the same holds true for any type of content that you are creating for any reason, paying attention to what your audience thinks and what they need.

[0:40:17.9] TU: I hope, folks, if they are not already following you on LinkedIn, they’ll be able to see that in action, so I hope they will. We’ll link to that in the show notes, Megan N. Freeland on LinkedIn. All right, my last question here for you, Megan, you had a post on LinkedIn recently that caught my attention and I didn’t prep you for this question, so this is going to be a discussion but you said:

“When you’ve worked so hard to get to a certain point, people may tell you to just be grateful that you’ve made it there. The sentiment implies that asking for anything more is mere greed. To that I say, don’t you dare dim your light for anyone else’s comfort. You can be grateful for your journey without having to stay there. We are all allowed to grow, mature, and evolve. Going after the career you want and the life you desire is not selfish, it’s your right and most importantly, it is within your power to do.” Tell us more.

[0:41:10.0] MF: Okay, hearing that read back to me that kind of got me in the heart a little bit. This kind of goes back to what I alluded to before about trusting yourself and recognizing that people might have your best interest at heart, or they might think that they do but they will also set limitations on you based on what they think is possible and what they think is fair and what they think is possible for them to do.

Sometimes, when you’ve worked really hard to achieve this goal, let’s say the goal is just graduating from pharmacy school, that might have been an expectation that either people didn’t have for you or people don’t have for themselves and so when you get to that point and if you turn around and realize, “I am proud of myself and I am glad that I accomplished this goal but I don’t feel completely settled” right?

I still feel like there’s something out there more for me, I still feel like maybe I am not in the exact place that I should be, maybe I’m close but maybe I’m not quite there, if you express that feeling to people, there are people who might say, “What are you talking about? You’re a pharmacist, you graduated, you should be grateful. I am over here doing XYZ, that’s not as cool as being a pharmacist, you have nothing to complain about” and that’s not about you.

That type of response is not about you, that’s about them and so my advice to anyone in this situation is your life is not anyone else’s. Your life is your own, no one else is responsible for what you do. No one else has to live with your decisions or your choices and so, regardless of how people respond to your discomfort or your feelings of unfulfillment or whatever it is, know that you are deserving of having the professional trajectory, having the life, having the career, having the whatever that you decide you want.

That’s within your control, that’s within your power and frankly, it is not for anyone else to comment on at all but if you say it to people, they will comment but just keep in mind that you determine all of that stuff. You determine the trajectory and you don’t have to feel guilty about that because it’s your life and you’re the only person who’s responsible for it.

[0:43:27.2] TU: So powerful, Megan, great said. It reminds me of a couple books I read and reread recently that I’d highly recommend, The Four Agreements, is one and the second one is, The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks. We’ll link to those in the show notes but those, both of those books get exactly to what you just shared there and that is so important for other people to hear especially for folks that are out there creating, putting content, stepping out in non-traditional ways like if you don’t work through that individual, everything you just shared there, it can be a very painful journey.

I think for folks to really realize what is their full opportunity but are their goals not what is the outside noise but what is their full opportunity, what are their goals and can they really lean into that is such encouraging words. Well, this has been a lot of fun and I am so grateful that you have taken time to come on the show. Where is the best place that folks can go to follow your work and learn more about what you’re doing?

[0:44:17.6] MF: Thank you for having me, Tim. This was a wonderful conversation. It’s been a while since I did a podcast, so I thought I was going to be a little rusty, but you made it really smooth, so I appreciate you. The best way to reach out to me is really via LinkedIn, we’ve talked about LinkedIn a lot, I am on there every day. So if you listen to this episode and you want to learn more about health content writing or you just want to say hey or you want to ask follow-up questions about anything Tim and I talked here, just find me on LinkedIn and shoot me a message. I love having conversations with folks there, so that is how you can reach me best and I look forward to chatting with you.

[0:44:51.7] TU: Great stuff, thank you so much, Megan, for taking the time to come on the show. We really appreciate it.

[0:44:55.1] MF: Thank you, Tim.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:44:56.7] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, let’s hear an important message from our sponsor, Insuring Income. If you are in the market to add own occupation disability insurance, term life insurance or both, Insuring Income would love to be your resource. Insuring Income has relationships with all of the high quality disability insurance and life insurance carriers you should be considering and can help you design coverage to best protect you and your family.

Head over to insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist or click on their link in the show notes to request quotes, ask a question or start down your own path of learning more about this necessary protection.

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:45:32.9] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information of the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post, and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analysis expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 257: How This Pharmacist Helps Others Transform and Advance Their Practice to Have a Joyful Career

Posted on May 26, 2022November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

How This Pharmacist Helps Others Transform and Advance Their Practice to Have a Joyful Career

In today’s episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Dr. Kimber Boothe, PharmD, MHA talks about her career in health systems and the pharmaceutical industry, why she founded the Kimber Boothe Group, how she has monetized her expertise, and the lessons she’s learned from publishing her second book, ‘Pharmfluencers: The Inspiring Stories of Pharmacy Entrepreneurs.’

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Kimber Boothe, PharmD, MHA, is a pharmacist, healthcare leader, and entrepreneur with decades of experience in health systems and the pharmaceutical industry. Kimber is the founder and CEO of the Kimber Boothe Group where she helps pharmacists transform and advance practice to have a joyful engaging career.

She serves by providing coaching, consulting, and courses on:

Leadership & Career Development
Pharmacy Strategy & Innovation/Intrapreneurship
Pharmacy Entrepreneurship

She calls herself a Connector and a Pharmovator® and is the creator and author of several programs and books to guide pharmacists to success. CONNECTOR CORE™ is a program on the Connector Framework™ – Connectorability™, Connector Alignment™, Connector Foundation™, and Connector LIFE™. PHARMOVATION® is a course and system to Accelerate Your Pharmacy Career, Advocate for resources & Advance Pharmacy Practice, and PHARMFLUENCER™ is to Influence, Multiply, and Impact Pharmacy through Entrepreneurship.

Kimber previously led the pharmacy services for a four-hospital community health system where she drove innovative strategy for the pharmacy enterprise as the Chief Pharmacy Officer. She was also the Director of Clinical Pharmacy Services at Yale New Haven Health. She is a graduate of the University of Connecticut School of Pharmacy and Medical University of South Carolina College of Pharmacy, University of Phoenix Masters in Health Administration program, and completed residency training at Virginia Commonwealth University Medical College of Virginia Hospitals.

She is passionate about spending time on the right things to develop others and deliver strategic, focused results. Her motto is Pharmacy Can do More with More™ and her goal is to support the addition of 100 new health system pharmacy positions annually.

She is the recipient of the Connecticut Society of Health System Pharmacists Meritorious Achievement Award and her prior organization has been recognized with the Kentucky Society of Health System Pharmacists Innovative Health-System Pharmacy Practice Award.

Episode Summary

There are more methods to monetize your knowledge and expertise in the pharmacy industry than you think. All you have to do is pick one. In this episode, discussing the various options and sharing her personal pharmacy path from clinical roles to leadership and consulting is Dr. Kimber Boothe. Not only is Dr. Boothe the author of two books, Pharmovation: Advocate for Resources, Advance Pharmacy Practice, & Accelerate Your Pharmacy Career and Pharmfluencers: The Inspiring Stories of Pharmacy Entrepreneurs, but she’s also the founder of the Kimber Boothe Group, where she guides pharmacists towards a joyful, engaging, and lucrative career. Listeners will hear Dr. Boothe break down the differences between intrapreneurship and entrepreneurship and her experience with each. We discover the purpose behind her mission, learn about her personal growth goals as she moves from a solopreneur to filling staff positions and hear her thoughts on the importance of intentional career development. We also delve into the power of mindset with Dr. Boothe, who shares some actionable tips for shaping a positive mindset. Dr. Boothe also takes a moment to discuss the levels of relationships, types of coaching available to you as a pharmacist, and why she believes coaching is so important.

Key Points From This Episode

Dr. Boothe’s career path in pharmacy, from clinical roles to leadership and consulting.
Defining intrapreneurship versus entrepreneurship.
The pros of allowing for intrapreneurship within an organization.
Why Dr. Boothe believes pharmacy can do more with more.
The genesis of The Kimber Boothe Group and the problems it aims to solve.
Dr. Boothe’s growth goals.
The importance of being intentional about career development.
The purpose of Dr. Boothe’s book, Pharmfluencers, and the information it contains.
Ways to monetize your knowledge and expertise in the pharmacy industry.
The power of mindset and tips for shaping a positive mindset.
The four levels of relationships and why Dr. Boothe believes having a coach is critical.
Dr. Boothe’s transition from being a solopreneur to hiring and filling positions.

Highlights

“Intrapreneurship is the opportunity to be innovative at work within the safety and support of an organization. It’s basically that ability to do innovative things, but within that support where you have additional financial support. You don’t have the risk of having your own business.” — Kimber Boothe, PharmD, MHA [0:04:47]

“I’m really pro pharmacy. I want to advance the profession, whether it is through intrapreneurship or with entrepreneurs.” — Kimber Boothe, PharmD, MHA [0:27:51]

“Once you read [Pharmafluencers], you’re inspired. You can think through and find your ikigai, which is your passion and purpose, and tie that to something that can be monetized.” — Kimber Boothe, PharmD, MHA [0:31:59]

“Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. There’s not a thing to be waited for. It is a thing to be achieved.” — Kimber Boothe, PharmD, MHA [0:37:16]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here. Thank you for listening to the YFP podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I had the chance to welcome pharmacy leader, influencer, and entrepreneur Dr. Kimber Boothe, to talk about her career in health systems in the pharmaceutical industry, why she founded the Kimber Boothe Group, where she helps pharmacists transform and advance practice to have a joyful, engaging career, how she has been able to monetize her expertise and the lessons that she learned from publishing her second book, Pharmfluencer: The Inspiring Stories of Pharmacy Entrepreneurs.

Before we hear from today’s sponsor and then jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning, financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacies achieve financial freedom. Okay, let’s hear from today’s sponsor, and then we’ll jump into my interview with Kimber Boothe.

This week’s podcast episode is brought to you by Insuring Income. Insuring Income is your source for all things term, life insurance, and Own Occupation Disability Insurance. Insuring Income has a relationship with America’s top-rated Term life insurance and disability insurance company, so pharmacists like you can easily find the best solutions for your personal situation. To better serve you. Insuring Income reviews all applicable carriers in the marketplace for your desired coverage, support clients in all 50 states, and makes sure all of your questions get answered.

To get quotes and apply for Term life or disability insurance, see sample contracts from disability carriers or learn more about these topics. Visit insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist. Again that’s insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:02:10] TU: Kimber. Welcome to the show.

[00:02:12] KB: Thank you, Tim. It’s great to be here.

[00:02:14] TU: So excited to have the opportunity to talk with you. Before we do a deep dive into the work that you’re doing today and much of your entrepreneurial journey as of late, talk to us about the path of your work in the pharmacy. Where that began, your interest in the profession as well as your career journey as a clinical specialist in the industry, and then as a health system leader?

[00:02:35] KB: Thank you, Tim. Well, I just, first of all, want to say that I do love our profession of pharmacy and I think, I want to thank you for everything you’re doing to support our profession’s financial health and support our innovation. I have had a wonderful career in pharmacy, starting mostly in hospitals and health systems and various clinical roles and as a cardiology specialist, moving up to leadership roles, ultimately into being assistant director, chief pharmacy officer for Community Health System, as well as being a director, system director of clinical services for an academic health system.

I also did spend ten years in the Pharma industry, so I had that experience, which I actually do owe a lot of my innovation and business savvy to the development I had in the Pharma industry where I did various roles in the medical affairs department. But was definitely drawn back to health systems, to what I referred to these days as my entrepreneurship activities, where I was promoting innovative practice, and bold strategic planning to advance pharmacy within an organization such as health systems.

[00:03:46] TU: Kim, I want to dive a little bit deeper on that, because I think there’s a lot of glorification that’s going on in entrepreneurship right now. We use that term a lot, and I think sometimes that can be interpreted as being synonymous with your own business or starting your own business, but entrepreneurship is a term where we’re starting to see grow, and I’m grateful for that. I think in the profession that term, I actually like a little bit more because I think it’s something that everyone can resonate with regardless of their role and the impact that they can have on the profession. So define for a moment what you mean by entrepreneurship and obviously, I think that’s something that we’re seeing. Lots of folks have opportunities within the profession that could be independent of owning their own business, right?

[00:04:26] KB: Absolutely. At the end of the day, entrepreneurship is wonderful. I know we’ll probably talk more about that as well, later on in this conversation, as I am now, what I like to call a full-time entrepreneur. But at the end of the day, most people are not going to be entrepreneurs, when you look at our total profession, 350,000 pharmacists in the US. intrapreneurship is that opportunity to be innovative at work within the safety and support of an organization. It is referred sometimes to as an entrepreneur on the job, or an entrepreneur in an organization. It’s basically that ability to do innovative things, but within that support where you have additional financial support, you don’t have the risk of having your own business.

That company is taking the risk, but there’s definitely some challenges because I know there are some organizations that are not open to these innovative ideas and you may not be able to implement something that you’re trying to do. But definitely the most successful organizations out there, whether they’re in health care or external to health care, those that allow for intrapreneurship’ to occur within their organization are more successful. Allowing the employees, team members to come up with ideas, allowing them time to work on those ideas while in the organization, helps their bottom line, helps them to be more successful, and ultimately to create more revenue for the company.

[00:06:00] TU: Yeah. I think that’s a great point. I mean, yes, it increases the bottom line increases of revenue, hopefully, pushes the innovation. I would argue also for the employee having that autonomy, having that space for creativity also probably ties to things like satisfaction in the workplace and retention and obviously can have a positive impact for employers as well, if they’re able to create that space to allow for entrepreneurship. Kimber, your motto is, “Pharmacy can do more with more with more.” What do you mean by that?

[00:06:30] KB: Well, I have to admit that definitely is my motto. Well, there is definitely times that we need to find efficiencies. I get very upset when I hear that phrase, do more with less. Yes, again, there’s times we can find efficiencies, use technology and be able to do more, but what I’ve seen in our profession is that we are underutilized and under-resourced for all of the massive amounts of unmet medication and health-related needs out there.

When I actually return to health systems after my ten years in PharmOn, I realized that the health system I was working at had grown immensely in terms of the number of patients, the number of services being provided, but the pharmacy team had really not grown in the same ratio. What I recognize is that we could be doing so much more, but we only had enough resources to focus on the most acute problems and whether that was on the acute care hospital side or even in the amateurish space where we had very few ambulatory pharmacists helping patients on an ongoing basis.

I came up with that motto and it’s definitely stuck with me and it’s really my mission and really why I left my intrapreneurship role to do entrepreneurship because my goal is to help create 100 new positions every year in pharmacy. When I think about some of the concerns that there is too many pharmacy students graduating, or when I look at the data and you really look at the unmet needs of complex medications, aging populations, clinician, physician shortages, I see a huge need for pharmacists.

Well, I don’t know the exact number of pharmacists we need. We definitely need more pharmacists practicing, but in different places than we are today, and also with different and better reimbursement models that value our overall benefit to health care and what I often referred to as the quadruple aim that we can help with improving the quality of care, we can improve the patient experience, we can improve provider satisfaction, and ultimately reduce costs by having more pharmacy team members.

The last thing I’ll say about it is, I often do the reason I say pharmacy can do more, not just pharmacists, is I definitely see a huge value of our pharmacy technician team members and have definitely advocate in for increasing their roles and as part of a true career for them, as well as, of course, integrating our students and optimizing more roles or creating more resonant positions. That’s why I often say pharmacy can do more with more, not just pharmacists.

[00:09:21] TU: Yeah. I love Kimber, your vision and an abundance mindset of creating new positions, right? 100 new positions in pharmacy each year. I wish we would see that adoption at a greater level among our national organizations and others because I think it really gets out of the conversation of, we only have so many jobs in this many graduates. What do we do? How do we increase the pie, right? How do we increase the pie and the opportunities that are out there? Which require, what we were just talking about a moment ago, that culture and spirit of intrapreneurship and entrepreneurship. So talk to us about the genesis of The Kimber Boothe Group. Your business and we’ll talk more about products and services here in a moment. But The Kimber Boothe Group, what problems or challenges did you face? What were you trying to remedy with this business?

[00:10:04] KB: Well, it’s interesting. When I first started the business really eight years ago, definitely as a side hustle, maybe many of your listeners are doing or considering doing. So at the time, actually when I started, I was actually still in Pharma at that time, and definitely, I had had multiple business ideas that all ended up in a file cabinet. So there was definitely a bug that I had around entrepreneurship but hadn’t found the right fit for me until I actually came across this thought leader, influencer model of an expert where it took away some of what I saw as barriers to a business like physical space products. It became about, what are you good at? What do people come to you for? What are you the expert in? How can you monetize that knowledge by sharing it with other people and helping them to grow, and becoming that multiplier to spread?

When I came across this expert’s model, that’s when I decided actually to create my business. I came up with a list of the things again that people naturally came to me for, the things that I was drawn to learning more about. It was definitely a lot about strategic planning, project management, and career development were the three main areas, both career development in terms of your professional development, but also being more assertive about your career trajectory and path. So that’s how I started. It was very general. I started to do some things on the side, some coaching.

I always to refer back to my first coaching client was an opera-singing soccer mom who just wanted some help to get back into opera singing and into the stage where she had to focus on her family for so long. We worked through that and she got on stage. So she was my first coaching client. From there it was a few years later that I actually went to the Medipreneurs Conference, which is an event that a few pharmacists had created, Anna Garrett, Sue Paul and Michelle Fritsch created that event. When I went to that event, I realized there that my passion is pharmacy, and that is where I had had definitely some success with doing some intrapreneurship business plans, justifying more positions.

I was being asked to speak by various organizations, conferences. I said, “Why am I trying to do this business very broad? I should be niching down or focusing my target to pharmacy.” Because I don’t mind helping soccer moms and things like that, but really, my passion is pharmacy. What I really wanted to do and connect those dots together was really focusing on helping the pharmacy profession to advance through sharing, again, similar topics. Strategic planning, project management, and career development were definitely a big part of that.

Back then, is when I created my Pharmovation course, which then turned into my Pharmovation book and the pharmovation consulting that I do for health systems which is where I spend most of my time these days, is actually helping organizations to write strategic plans, write those business plans that actually justify those additional positions.

[00:13:33] TU: For folks that are interested in learning more about what Kimber had shared of the influencer expert business model. She talks about it in her book, Pharmfluencers: The Inspiring Stories of Pharmacy Entrepreneurs. So more information there, I think that’s a great way for pharmacists to think about, especially what Kimber, or when I think about your career journey and the expertise that you have. I suspect many of the relationships in the network that you have, it makes a whole lot of sense that you’re doing some of that consulting.

If I heard you correctly you’re doing both on the business to business side, you’re consulting with health systems and organizations, helping them on a strategy leadership level, but then also you have a suite of services that are really on the business to consumer the B2C side for the individual being the courses, the coaching and the books. Is that correct?

[00:14:19] KB: Exactly, yes. I have what I call my product matrix of what I’m trying to support people with. Yeah, there’s definitely the consulting arm that focuses on the businesses themselves. I’m usually paid by director of pharmacy, usually. Then others, whether it’s individual coaching online courses or membership programs where people have opportunities for all of us to connect in a smaller group coaching atmosphere, both on the entrepreneurship side and the entrepreneurship side.

[00:14:53] TU: Could you break down a little bit further, Kim? You said you spent a vast majority of your time in consulting with the health system, roughly speaking certainly not share individual numbers, but roughly speaking on time spent or revenue of the business, if we think about this as a pie chart with your consulting to organizations, and then some of the coaching and the coursework that you’re doing with individuals or smaller groups as well as the books or other products. How would you break that down in terms of the different products and services that are within your business?

[00:15:21] KB: Yeah. That’s a very good question in terms of that breakdown and what it is now and what I wanted to be, I’ll share here. So right now it is more 90% of my time and 90% of my revenue is coming from consulting. That is that work and the other 10% is coming from the membership’s one-on-one coaching and other things like the summit programs that I’ve done. So that 90/10 a ratio, I’m definitely wanting to change that a little bit. I’m doing things like I have a full-time assistant and we’re trying to grow the online business through the membership basically, just because my time is limited.

If I want to be able to have more impact and reach more people, it’s not going to be through my one-on-one consulting. So I think the goal would be to grow that about to 40% of the business, 50 to 60% maintaining on the consulting side because I still think that’s vital for me. Having that integrated involvement with organizations is really helpful for me to grow and for me to really have the biggest impact, but I also know again, to reach more people and to get other people to write their own business plans so that we can create even more than 100 positions a year is definitely how I want to grow.

Again, moving towards more of a, almost a 50/50, but in this current year, my goal is to get to at least 80/20. So each year I have a goal to move that needle about 10%. Again, some of that is through growing my group membership that I have called the Connector Leadership Circle. Again that I can help more people at once and I can through, one-on-one coaching conversations or one to business consulting. I will share my other goal with growing is to add to my team. So I’m definitely talking with folks about doing some consulting with me, so I could potentially take on more consulting clients if I had a team. Right now it is just a team of one, right now.

While I have been asked by other consulting companies to become part of their firms, I’ve chosen to stay on my own, because of the flexibility, so I could focus on what I want with this ratio of services. Again, I recognize that organizations do need help. When I’m full on my consulting or my coaching clients and I can’t take anymore, well, how can I serve more? That would be adding to my team and them coming under the Kimber Boothe Group to do the consulting with me and as well as potentially some additional coaches.

I do recognize that people do come to me for my knowledge, but there’s a lot of people who have learned from me over the years and can teach and do what I’m doing. So it doesn’t have to be just about me. I think the last thing I’ll just share with that is when it comes to having a business, my current business coach, which of course I’ve always recommended having a coach throughout my career. I’ve either paid for myself or advocated through my organizations to have a coach. My current coach is definitely very focused business. What they say in that program, which is, it’s called Action Coach, and they follow very organized format for business owners, but their definition of a business owner is owning a business that can operate independently of you.

I definitely am not there yet, and I don’t know that I’ll ever want it to be that way. But if I want to leave a long-lasting legacy that is why I am exploring with my coach. What are these ways through adding to my consulting team or adding additional coaches, creating these membership programs where I can reach more people and it can become a little more independent. So that is my goal. I don’t think I ever started that way, though. I mean, honestly, that definition and that thought process is still pretty new, because when I did think of this thought leader model and when I did even think about what to call my business.

I called it my name because a lot of the people I was learning from back then, that’s what they did and then their products, so I brand my products and services and trademark them, but the business itself was me, but in this new mindset it won’t be me in the future at some point or it definitely will be a team. That is why it says group, not just Kimber Boothe, so that is part of that. So thanks for letting me share those thoughts.

[00:20:07] TU: No, I’m glad you did, because, because one of the things I always encourage folks as they have an idea that they’re passionate about. They want to pursue or they say, “I want to start my own business.” One of the things I’ll ask and encourage them is, what’s the goal? What do you want this to look like? What is the vision of that product or that service? But if we fast forward 20 to 30 to 40 years, is this a lifestyle business? Are you a solo entrepreneur? Do you envision a model where, as you mentioned, Kimber, by definition of sounds what the action coach program does that this can operate without you and therefore live on without you, which makes a whole lot of sense when you talk about this vision of really impacting and leaving a dent in the profession and growing positions, like scalability makes a whole lot of sense, right? Because there goes the impact that you can have and that could mean beyond your career that could mean time off that you have, but that other folks are helping to advance that mission.

That’s part of a couple of reasons why I wanted to dig in a little bit of behind the curtain of the business is, one I suspect that you may have many listed units and I am really interested in learning more about what Kimber is doing. You can find all this at kimberboothe.com. We’ll link to that in the show notes. Number two, is that I don’t think we often share enough of among pharmacy entrepreneurs of what is the actual bones of the business look like today and where do we want it to go?

I think that’s so helpful, because for many people that are at the different phases of, hey, I’ve got an idea, or it’s a side hustle, or I’m actually starting to validate an idea and grow it and scale it. Being able to hear, even if someone isn’t thinking about a model that fits necessarily within the realm of what you’re doing, I think it’s helpful to hear other models that exist, how those businesses are monetized. What are some of the challenges and where do they envision the growth going in the future? So my follow up question with that in mind, Kimber, is as you have this business that has both a, B2B, so business to business, working with health system organizations, consulting as well as a, B2C, where you’re doing individual types of coaching and programs and books, do you see synergy between the two?

As you talk about your services, I could see where you’re consulting with an organization, and leaders within that organization may say, “Hey, I want some coaching or services individually for me, or vice versa.” Where individuals are engaging with your products, as an individual, as a consumer, and they say, “Hey, we really would love to have Kimber be a part of our organization.” Do you see some of that crossover that’s happening?

[00:22:29] KB: Yes, definitely. There’s crossover on the B2B and the B2C where, yeah, I think both ways. Definitely where I’ve been brought in as a consultant and then they say, “Oh I want to join your membership to have this.” You can finish your consulting project, but now I want to stay involved either themselves or they want it for their team members. So they’ll have them join the membership or attend my summits, buy my books. Also on the other side definitely, I’ve worked with people as one-on-one coaches, and then they say, “Oh this is great. We’ve gotten this far, but it would really help if you can come in and work with us directly. So I’m going to suggest you be a consultant.” I definitely have started, I do plan to look into this further is also trying to get these organizations as part of a bulk purchase. So can they, as part of their professional development of their team members, they pay for.

[00:23:33] TU: Yes.

[00:23:33] KB: Rather than many times the individual is paying for some of my services and products with the health system or pharmacy pay for their members to go. I have group rates, again that I’ve introduced to a few health systems, but want to offer that more broadly where if they have ten people join one of my courses or join the membership, they get ten, 20% off, because they have paid for it. Then the individual has gotten that support and recognition from the organization, so absolutely a lot of synergy there.

[00:24:13] TU: I love that, Kimber. I think you and I maybe talked about this offline while ago as we share some previous career paths and links in the health system pharmacy leadership role. I think that area is so right for ongoing coaching development at the pharmacy director and management level of folks that have found themselves in those roles through extensive training and obviously lots of professional development that got them there. If I’m a director of pharmacy, Chief Pharmacy Officer, I want to not only recruit and retain that top talent, but I want them to grow in their awareness of what is possible. We’ll talk in a moment here about mindset. I certainly see value that can happen as you’re working with organizations also doing some individual coaching and consulting as well, so glad to hear that you’re exploring that direction.

[00:25:03] KB: I think. Well, I’ll just add to that, Tim, briefly. Obviously, you’ve focused a lot on the health system pharmacy leadership with the residency programs. It is great when people know they wanted to go into leadership and they tend to focus on that, but what I’ve definitely seen in pharmacy is a lot of times people are appropriate. They’re very focused on their clinical knowledge. Then they get tapped for leadership positions or they have an interest. It is surprising to me when I ask a group of pharmacists, “Who has a professional development plan?” And maybe five to 10% of the people will raise their hand. I’ve been in audiences where nobody has raised their hands.

Sometimes we finish school and then we’re doing continuing education, but we’re not being strategic about our career development. So for me, it’s all about being strategic, not just in the business plans, but being strategic about your career and those are a lot of the folks that I help in addition to the health system, pharmacy leadership, residency training folks who knew that they wanted to go into leadership. It’s all of the other team members who weren’t as interested, but because they’re strong clinicians, they do get tacked and there’s a lot of a need and opportunity there for ongoing support.

[00:26:22] TU: You’re giving me flashbacks, Kimber of I think everyone who’s gone through residency can relate to the days. It was resi track back in the day when I completed — I think it’s an out form academic, but just the extensive evaluation and goal setting and professional development that happens during that training year. Then you just enter into the wild, wild West. That’s a common thing you hear among folks of that transition is very stark from development and goal setting and evaluation that’s very rigorous to like it becomes much more self-initiated unless you’ve got a supervisor that is very, very passionate about that. So, great reminder for folks that have gone through that training or have not, I think of how important it is to be intentional as we think about the professional development piece.

Kimber, your latest book, Pharmfluencers: The Inspiring Story of Pharmacy Entrepreneurs. Folks can find that book available on Amazon. You can also go to our kimberboothe.com to get more information. One of things you say in the intro is, “I know far too many pharmacists who are experiencing burnout from working within the health care industry who find themselves unable to achieve the level of financial freedom they want, who believe that they can do more than what they’re allowed within the confines of their job.” For those that hear that, that are listening and say, yes, that’s me. What advice would you have for them?

[00:27:43] KB: Well, definitely get the book. The reason I chose to do to get this book together is again, I’m really pro pharmacy. So I want to advance the profession, whether it is through intrapreneurship or with entrepreneurs. So this book, what’s so cool about it, is it is 34 pharmacist entrepreneurs and their inspiring stories of how they have taken their passions, their knowledge, such as yourself as you are featured in this book to share that of how they have created a business to monetize their knowledge and have the impact that they desire.

Some people are doing it, definitely there’s people in the book that are doing it as a side hustle. Others that have been able to transition to it full time like you and I. It is just my way of helping to motivate people to know that they can do this again, either on the side or as a full-time career. Again, I don’t think this is the only path, by all means, I do see lots of opportunity in pharmacy. I do think within our organizations we need to be innovative about it, but I do love entrepreneurship. It’s been a wonderful experience for me in terms of being able to be having some freedom and the creativity to design a business that in some cases has more flexibility than a job.

It does have more risks sometimes. We know there’s some data that shows that small businesses don’t succeed. Again, a lot of what this book focuses on is this expert’s model or the that’s why it’s the pharmacist influencers. So in this book, I really focus on what I said about my business. It’s a slightly easier business model than others that have lots of infrastructure, but what we do talk about in the book and why I think people who are interested in or just want to understand more about businesses is getting the book, reading the stories to be inspired.

There is access to a chapter that talks about the outline of the Pharmfluencer business model, which will walk through some of the basics of starting a business and understanding some of those aspects of why would you start a business? What type of topics do you want to focus on? Definitely we go into what I’ve summarized as the 14 common methods to monetize your knowledge. This is where somebody who, and we definitely have a lot of different entrepreneurs out there like yourself who focus on an area. We have the Prednisone Pharmacists, we have the Fertility Pharmacists, the Public Health Pharmacists, we have all sorts of people who are diving deep in areas to get and share their knowledge, but also being able to monetize that.

Those 14 methods range from creating apps and tools, writing books or e-books, creating online courses, doing coaching one-on-one or group, consulting, clinical services, which is a lot of what I would say when we think about some of the entrepreneurship in pharmacy these days doing MTMs, doing fee for service, clinical services. That’s still an awesome method, but that’s not the only way to monetize your knowledge. You can do live seminars, create masterminds, memberships, sell to smaller PDFs. You could be physical products like Dr. Megan who is the Prednisone Pharmacist, she has a supplement for people on prednisone.

You can do speaking and that could be potentially a moneymaker. It’s definitely also a marketing tool. You can also sell webinars and even do virtual summits these days, which have become important. So those are the 14 ways that I think of to monetize your knowledge that we talk about in the book and then each of the 34 pharmfluencers shares what their journey is and what they’re doing to monetize their knowledge.

You only have to pick one to start. So once you read the book, you’re inspired, you can think through and find your ikigai, which is your passion and purpose, and tie that to something that can be monetized and you pick a method to monetize. I honestly did not start with books. Books are not necessarily my favorite thing to do. So definitely the coaching was where I started doing that one-on-one coaching that actually has probably the lowest barrier to entry in terms of ease for supporting people, right away. Then I moved on to creating the online courses and selling those. Then as you heard about some of the other methods that I am using.

[00:32:38] TU: That’s what I loved about the book, Kimber, is that the 14 ways and ideas that folks can have, the buckets, if you will, of how to monetize. The work that they’re doing, followed up with over 30 different pharmacists’ entrepreneurs and stories. I think the passion we share for featuring pharmacist entrepreneurs and stories is the desire that we, I see among pharmacists today, I’m interested in using my pharmacy degree and maybe what we call a nontraditional way. I don’t know exactly where to go and how to get started. I always say as we share more of these stories like we’re sharing yours here today.

Maybe for some folks, they’re going to say, “Hey, I hear what Kimber is doing. I want to do something like that, or it sparks an idea.” But more than anything, it’s that idea creation and Genesis and just opening up the door of I had no idea. There’s all these pharmacists that are out there that all graduated with a pharmacy degree, and now they’re doing 34 different things in the case of the individuals that are featured in the book. So I think it helps folks to spark an idea, perhaps to get them thinking a different way, but it’s tangible, right? I think often you read about, “Hey, how can you monetize your income or side hustle or this or that?”

Often folks are like, “Hey, that’s exciting, but I don’t really know where to get started.” That’s where the stories, that’s where examples of other pharmacists that are doing certain things and folks can say, “Oh, I’m a pharmacist in that setting, this is give me idea of how I might also be able to monetize the work that I’m doing or at least one place to get started.” So really well done, I think the introduction was brilliant the way that you wrote that. Then covering the business model the Pharmfluencer business models you mentioned, and then followed up with over 30 different pharmacists, entrepreneurs that are featured.

One of the things that you talk about in the book, and I want to dive a little bit deeper here as it relates to your own journey, as well as maybe what you saw as a theme or thread among those that were featured is the concept of the power of mindset. This has come up as a recurring theme of yes on this show. I want to just hear from you, Kimber, as you put together these 30-plus stories. Tell us more about the theme that you saw around mindset and why it was so influential in their own businesses and journeys.

[00:34:48] KB: Absolutely. It’s so important and I’m going to forget some of the great quotes on this topic, but what you think is what’s going to come to fruition, and it’s so important both with when we’re working as well as if we’re thinking about being an entrepreneur, because it’s it definitely can be very scary and it’s important that we think positive, we think boldly. Definitely, you mentioned abundance, a mindset before. That’s where we need to be in this a blue ocean mentality rather than read ocean. There’s a book about that where, again, there are so many needs and opportunities and there is space and need for everybody. We need to find that versus thinking that we’re all fighting for that same piece of the pie and it’s more of that restriction.

I focus on it here in the book. Definitely when I’m coaching people as well as in my courses, how important that is. I always try to support developing that and focusing on having a positive mindset and a critical way to develop that mindset is surrounding yourself with like-minded people. It’s important when you’re considering this journey that you do talk to people who have been there and done it, because it’s easy. I definitely experience this in my family. When you start talking about entrepreneurship and it’s like, oh, you’re going to behave your, you’re nice solid pharmacist paycheck to do something that’s this risky. Really, so you want to do that? It’s being around with other people.

When I was actually at a retreat and everybody’s like, well, Kimber, you need to give your notice. You need to do this now. As soon as you get back from this retreat give your notice. I’m like well, well, let me – I was, I knew I was going to leave within a couple of years, and I didn’t want to leave right then, because it was pharmacists month, but soon after that, I did make the decision, and it was surrounding myself with these like-minded folks that helped me with my mindset about this, that I would be successful and to think about it. I do think one of the quotes I do have in the book is that it did say that, “Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. There’s not a thing to be waited for. It is a thing to be achieved.”

I think those are quotes and mantras that I try to think about and repeat that helped me with my mindset as well as, like I said, surrounded myself with these wonderful pharmfluencers like yourself to motivate me as well as sometimes commiserate. We can have that positive mindset, but that doesn’t mean that bad things won’t happen. It’s more about how we approach it and how we react to it. That is the key part of the mindset and not just having that grit and resilience to move through any troubles that come up.

[00:38:03] TU: Yeah. Kimber, there’s something really powerful you said in the introduction that I think gives people a sneak peek into your mindset and the motivation behind your work. That was when you said, there’s something empowering about taking hold of one’s life and sharing that narrative with the world. I think for folks that have an idea and want to create something, you want to do something. Don’t underestimate the power that can come from that shift in mindset when you’re creating, your putting yourself out there. Yes, there’s fear. Yes, there’s risk that’s involved, but that’s a beautiful thing. When you start to see that you’re producing something that’s having a positive impact in other people’s lives.

Kimber, I have a follow up on that. In addition to surround yourself with like-minded people, so important and there’s lots of different ways that folks can do that. You’ve created community that helps that as well. Are there one or two other things that you have found either personally or in coaching others, thinking of things can be morning routines or just a voracious hunger to be reading and learning, but are there one or two themes that you have found individually or in coaching others that really help in this shaping up mindset?

[00:39:11] KB: Yes. I mean, a lot of the things you mentioned are definitely important. That’s why I in the book I know I refer to it as having your inner circle and your network, so that is around that creating those connections. I do think that continuous development is an important part of that. Having a professional development plan that not only includes your subject matter expertize, but now also aspects of entrepreneurship. You don’t have to learn and know every aspect of it, because you can definitely hire and pay other people to do certain things. But expanding your development so that you are considering learning, right? This is now your business. You do need to spend some extra time and investment in that.

Definitely having a coach I would say is probably the most important thing I have done for mindset through the years. Again, whether I had what I used to maybe refer to as an executive coach, maybe at one point a career coach and then more of an executive coach when I was in leadership positions. Now having a business coach, I think having a coach is critical. There’s four levels that I actually think about in terms of relationships. The first one is just networking. You’re like level one relationship building is like networking.

Everybody should have a networking plan and be strategic about it. Then people should have a mentor, somebody that’s more that you do meet with that’s within an area that’s related to your development. People should have a sponsor if they’re in an organization, so that’s the third level. A sponsor differs from a mentor usually, because they’re in a position of power. They can sponsor and advocate for you when certain positions come up. Then the fourth level of that relationship area that is critical is coaching.

Some of the training I’ve done on coaching calls your coach, your paid best friend, but it is somebody who will challenge you beyond what you would maybe challenge yourself to do, but also see things in you that you may suppress or not be willing to acknowledge and bring out and move you through your fears to success. I would say again, definitely just having that inner circle related to your networking and your mentors doing your development, but then ultimately having a coach has been what’s been so important for me with my mindset.

[00:41:53] TU: Yeah. Well said. I would agree with that too. It took me a while to get around to the importance of making that investment about time and money, but it’s so important. I would just echo everything you said in terms of when I think about the impact that my coach has had on my overall mindset and it’s not just in those coaching sessions, right? I think when done well and when you are ready for the coaching, it’s the constant thought and dialog that’s going on, could be internally, it could be after coaching session, my wife Jess and I or a friend we’re digesting and following up on things, but it’s a continuous process that’s ongoing and it’s really, really fun to think about, what’s the next level? What’s the next level? Where else can I continue to grow and stretch myself? Often that means perhaps going into some areas that are uncomfortable as well.

[00:42:40] KB: It’s sometimes what my coach has also done is, in a way the opposite. It’s also a matter of making sure I do have balance and that’s it is a business. There’s a reason like you said, about what you talk to your clients about is, what is your goal here? Well, it’s not in most cases to work more hours than you are working at the pharmacy, but it is for some more freedom and maybe that’s not something that you expect maybe in your first few years of business.

I know my coach also helps me with that to be realistic as well in terms of, am I prioritizing the most critical things and ensuring that I don’t burn out or put too many things on my plate. Or also definitely challenge me to make sure I’m outsourcing things, if it is definitely things that I can delegate. Definitely thinking new and balancing comes from a great coach.

[00:43:35] TU: Speaking of outsourcing, you talk about in the book that your biggest learning curve was being the transition from a solopreneur to hiring and filling positions, which I was surprised at, given your background in managing and leading teams. I would assume very, very comfortable with delegation, which may not always be the case for four folks. So talk to us more about why this was such a steep learning curve for you?

[00:43:58] KB: It is a good question. I still to this day, I think, I still have some trouble with it. I don’t know why, right? Like you said, I’ve hired hundreds of people. I’ve had teams of hundreds of people under me through a Matrix organization. It was — when you’re using your own money, I guess, and I guess like in some people, like bootstrapping, I didn’t take loans, the expenses for those first few years as a side hustle, I was losing money. Technically based on the investments I was making in my education, the website, some things, because it was on the side, I wasn’t bringing in a profit. So you think hiring is just going to mean more expense. But at the end of the day, and as I’ve learned from more entrepreneurs, the faster, and you can scale up through working with others that will usually get you to the finish line faster to become more profitable.

I did have trouble seeing that early on. Then interestingly, even when I was hiring it was easier definitely to hire for specific tasks. If I needed a graphic designer, I needed a video editor. Those things seemed easier to hire for. Then I definitely had a mindset around my assistant, again where I was doing things myself and then hiring an assistant for 10 hours a week or 20 hours a week. It wasn’t until I did take a course actually on virtual assistants. It’s like, how can you scale yourself, right? Then put yourself as the CEO. Literally, that’s what they called this course that I took.

It was like, you’re the CEO of your business. You would not be the ones posting certain things or you would not be the one to create a web page. That would be somebody else if you were the true CEO of your business and thinking through that and moving to actually hiring somebody full time where just like I do talk about in our profession, you should be practicing at the top of your license. You should do the same in your business. Unless it’s something you absolutely are uniquely qualified, and only you can do it then you should be able to delegate or outsource that.

It is interesting where I feel like I still was not doing a great job was even on the hiring process. I was trying to work and wanted to just hire different agencies, who would get me an assistant. I’m like, I have hired lots of people, right? Why haven’t I converted to do that myself? So once I switched and did that and I actually hired myself and same thing I’m doing now with looking for subcontractor consultants is I can do the interview the same way I did before. I don’t know why I was treating it differently. There are definitely a lot of things that should crossover from intrapreneurship to entrepreneurship that for whatever reason I had a mental block about, but that is cleared now and moving more focus into making sure that it is a true business. I’m hiring a team just like I would have done when I was the chief pharmacy officer.

[00:47:21] TU: Great stuff, Kimber. I think that first one is very difficult. I think as time goes on it becomes a little bit easier as well, but appreciate the reflection. I would encourage again, folks to make sure they pick up a copy of Pharmfluencers: The Inspiring Stories of Pharmacy Entrepreneurs, over 30 pharmacy influencer entrepreneur stories. You can pick that up on Amazon or you can also pick that up by going to kimberboothe.com. Kimber, what’s the best place that folks can go to learn more about you and follow your journey?

[00:47:48] KB: Yeah, definitely coming to my website at kimberboothe.com, they can learn a little bit more about me. If you go to kimberboothe.com/links, you can get access to my various social media channels, as well as get the Free Pharmevader score to see what a pharmacy innovator you are. Basically, just get on my email list, so I can communicate with you more regularly when these different opportunities come up. Basically go to my website, kimberboothe.com or kimberboothe/links to get to all of my contact points.

[00:48:24] TU: Great. We’ll link to the website as well as LinkedIn and the books, we’ll link to all that in the show notes. Kimber, congratulations on, again the new book, your second book, the work that you’re doing, the impact that you’re having on the profession. Look forward to following your journey and thank you so much for coming on the show.

[00:48:39] KB: Thank you, Tim. Thanks for having me.

[OUTRO]

[00:48:41] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, let’s hear an important message from our sponsor, Insuring Income. If you are in the market to add own occupation disability insurance, term life insurance or both. Insuring Income would love to be a resource. Insuring Income has relationships with all of the high-quality disability insurance and life insurance carriers you should be considering and can help you design coverage to best protect you and your family.

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information to the podcasts and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the date published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacists.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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Cryptocurrency 101 for the Pharmacy Professional

Posted on May 5, 2022 by yfpadmin

Cryptocurrency 101 for the Pharmacy Professional

The following is a guest post from Samantha Boartfield, PharmD. Samantha Boartfield is a pharmacist in Phoenix, Arizona, who also writes for women and mother entrepreneurs (Mamapreneurs) on her site at SamanthaBrandon.com.

Disclaimer: This post is intended for general, educational purposes only. This post and the information herein is in no way meant to serve or act as a replacement for professional investment advice. Investing in cryptocurrency may be high risk with high losses and should be done at the sole risk of the investor. The following post contains affiliate links through which YFP may receive compensation.

I used to wave off cryptocurrency, thinking it was an online currency fad exclusive to techies and gamers. It seemed like one giant experiment (and I’m no gambler), but I think you could argue that we’re already in phase III of this currency trial with millions of users already testing the waters. Are we in the 1990s of the internet, and will crypto become a revolutionizing technology that changes our entire financial system? Or is this going to be the digital tulip craze 2.0?

Only time will tell, but before you get caught in the hype, it’s more important to understand the foundations behind cryptocurrency to make that determination for yourself.

Let’s start from the beginning with the history of money.

The Origins of National Currency

It’s hard to understand cryptocurrency without understanding the simple concept of money. Why do we as a society put any value into the U.S. Dollar? After all, it is a piece of paper that doesn’t serve a single human need like food or shelter (a house made of dollar bills certainly doesn’t seem very stable).

It all started in the early days of bartering. You know, I’ll give you five tomatoes in exchange for a kilo of flour. The trouble with that is you can’t grow a large society based on that type of trading system. How many tomatoes would it take to buy a house? What if you still wanted those tomatoes, but the tomato producer needed olive oil instead?

That’s where currency comes into play. It acts as a medium of exchange so that indirect transfer of goods can be made. Instead of trading direct goods, we exchange currency that has a unit of measurement. Fast-forwarding the history of a few millennia (salt, seashells, metal coins, gold, paper notes), we now find ourselves using national currencies.

Fiat Currency

No, I’m not talking about the Italian car driving down the Amalfi coast. Investopedia defines fiat currency as “government-issued currency that is not backed by a physical commodity such as gold or silver, but rather by the government that issued it.” The reason the U.S. Dollar has value (and other countries’ currencies) is because it is backed by the United States government. That’s why if you go to another country and try to spend your dollars, they may not accept it or give you a funny look. Your dollar bills aren’t worth anything in their economy since there’s no guarantee from their government that those specific paper bills will hold any value tomorrow, next week, or even next year!

Since leaving the gold standard, fiat currency has had its benefits, including being traded as a widely accepted legal tender, the relative stability for short-term and long-term investments, and a central authority to help manage the economy.

The Pitfalls of Fiat

Taking a step back, there is one crucial aspect we need to remember about the history of currencies. There has always been a transition to a newer currency because the newer currency met a need that the former did not. Gold trumped silver thanks to its scarcity of resources and its chemical stability. The gold standard gave way to fiat because it couldn’t keep up with the demand.

So what about the pitfalls of fiat money? Although it’s hard to fathom a world not operating on the dollar, I believe if you asked your parents or grandparents if they believed the majority of transactions would be done with a phone or plastic card, they would laugh at you. It would have been unfathomable to not be using physical dollars and coins.

And now we find ourselves asking if fiat currency will give way to cryptocurrency due to the pitfalls we are facing such as:

Inflation or Hyperinflation: This article couldn’t be timed better as we all have felt the effects of inflation. If you keep printing money, then money loses its value. Milton Friedman said it best, “Inflation is taxation without legislation.” Check out Episode 239 on the YFP Podcast where Tim and Tim talk more about inflation.
Rise of the “Bubble”: Remember the mortgage crisis in 2007? Central banks weren’t able to prevent it.

This is a good time to transition to what is cryptocurrency, and if it can solve some of these problems we’ve discussed.

Step Aside Printing: It’s All About Mining and Staking.

BlockChain

Let’s first discuss the technology behind cryptocurrency, which is blockchain digital ledger technology. A digital ledger is a way to record transactions using code. When you hear people talk about “the blockchain,” they’re referring to the fact that these digital ledgers are chained together.

In simple terms, this is how it works:

A transaction is made and verified by computers in the network. The transaction is then stamped as a block and added to the end of the chain. Once it’s added to the chain, it cannot be altered or removed.

The best part about this technology is that it doesn’t require a central authority to manage or verify these transactions! So what does that mean for us?

Well, let’s say you wanted to buy your friend a coffee with cryptocurrency. The transaction would go something like this:

You and your friend’s computers would communicate that you want to make a transaction.

Your transaction is verified by the network of computers, and once it’s verified, it gets added as a block to the chain.

Your friend now has his coffee and you have your cryptocurrency. Yay!

Consensus Mechanisms

Now, all blockchains have this foundation, but they may differ slightly. One way they differ is with their consensus mechanisms, which are essentially the way that the network of computers agrees on the validity of a transaction.

The two most common consensus mechanisms are proof-of-work (POW) and proof-of-stake (POS).

Proof-of-Work (PoW)

With PoW, also known as mining, transactions are verified by computer nodes that solve complex mathematical problems. The first node to solve the problem gets to add the next block of transactions to the chain and is rewarded with cryptocurrency for their trouble! This is known as “mining” cryptocurrency.

Proof-of-Stake (PoS)

With PoS, instead of being rewarded for solving math problems, nodes are chosen randomly to verify transactions and add blocks based on how much cryptocurrency they have “staked” or put down as collateral. This system is said to be more energy-efficient than POW because there is no need for every single computer to solve the same mathematical problems as they race to be the fastest.

Which consensus mechanism is better? They both have their pros and cons.

The big thing to know is that PoW requires a lot of energy because you have thousands of computers working on the same problem. This is what makes PoS mechanisms more appealing.

Now, what exactly is Cryptocurrency?

Cryptocurrency is digital or virtual currency that uses blockchain technology. Each cryptocurrency will use a slightly different form of blockchain. A defining feature of cryptocurrencies is that they are not issued by any central authority like fiat currencies – which means they are decentralized! Cryptocurrencies are sent directly from person to person over the internet without going through a financial institution.

The Basics

We need to spend a moment discussing how to buy, sell, or trade crypto.

Where to Buy, Sell, and Trade

Cryptocurrency exchanges are websites where you can buy, sell, or trade cryptocurrencies. You’ll need to create an account on the exchange and then deposit funds into that account to buy crypto. Some popular exchanges are Coinbase, Binance, and Kraken.

How to Store

You can definitely keep your coins on your cryptocurrency exchange. For example, if you bought some Bitcoin through Coinbase, you don’t need to do anything else.

But seeing as the main focus of crypto is to be one hundred percent decentralized, many users want to secure their own coins. This is where you can place them in a software wallet like MetaMask or MathWallet, which has its own password called a “seed phrase.” This seed phrase is similar to a PIN for a debit card.

How to Secure

If you have invested a lot of money into crypto, you don’t want to leave it up to hackers to steal it. Unlike a bank account, there’s no one to get you your money back if it’s stolen. That’s where “cold” wallets come in. Trezor or Ledger are the most popular, and you can think of these as a USB drive that stores your coins offline.

How to Keep Track

Once you’ve started to invest in cryptocurrency, it’s important to know how much money you’ve invested, which is easily done through a cryptocurrency portfolio tracker.

Don’t forget that regulations have now been passed to help you easily report any income you’ve made from crypto gains. You’ll probably want to check out crypto tax reporting software as well.

Types of Crypto

Today, there are nearly a thousand different types of cryptocurrencies out there. Let’s break them down.

Bitcoin

Bitcoin is the original cryptocurrency, and it was created in 2009 by Satoshi Nakamoto. Bitcoin is a decentralized cryptocurrency that uses PoW consensus mechanism to verify transactions.

Altcoin

Altcoin is short for “alternative coins,” AKA any coin that is not bitcoin. You can sell and buy altcoins similarly to Bitcoin. Here are the most common Altcoins:

Ether: Ether is used on the Ethereum network and is very popular as it’s the crypto of choice for buying and selling NFTs. It was a PoW, but will fully transition to PoS by the end of 2022.
Dogecoin: Dogecoin was created as a joke, but it quickly grew in popularity. Dogecoin is a decentralized, peer-to-peer digital currency that allows you to send money online.
Solana: Solana is another proof-of-stake consensus coin and promises to be more scalable than other blockchains.

Stablecoin

A stablecoin is a cryptocurrency that is pegged to an asset with a stable value, such as gold or the U.S. dollar. The purpose of a stablecoin is to avoid the volatility that is common among other cryptocurrencies.

The most popular stablecoins are:

Tether (USDT): Tether is pegged to the U.S. dollar and it’s one of the most popular.
USDC: USDC is another USD-backed stablecoin, and it’s available on many different cryptocurrency exchanges.
DAI: DAI is a decentralized stable coin that aims to stay as close to the U.S. dollar as possible.

The Good and the Bad

Hopefully, by now, you understand why money plays a vital role in society, and our large-scale economies could not operate without it. You can understand that the tool we use as a medium for exchange also evolves as technology changes. So the question remains, could cryptocurrency play a parallel role with fiat money or could it be something that replaces it altogether?

The Crypto Advantage

Crypto has many unique advantages that can solve some of the problems we have with fiat currency.

Lower inflation risk: In a fiat currency, the government can print out more money. Not Bitcoin. Only 21 million can be mined and that’s it.
Money without borders: You can transfer Bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency to anyone in the world without paying any fees, and it will arrive in minutes.
Fraud prevention: Another advantage of cryptocurrency is that it can help prevent fraud. With traditional methods of payment, it is easy for someone to commit fraud by using a stolen credit card or bank account.

The Hurdles

What could stop cryptocurrency from being adopted worldwide? Well, quite a few things, as there are tons of concerns that we have seen arise.

Ease of Use: There’s quite a learning curve when it comes to buying and selling crypto, so I don’t see it becoming more mainstream until this process is streamlined and people have an easier way of understanding crypto.
Volatility: The value of cryptocurrencies can rise and fall quite quickly, making them a huge concern for investments. Stablecoin may help with this in the future.
Government regulation: Government regulation will have a huge hand in dictating the future crypto. We have seen what happened with China when they banned cryptocurrency exchanges. This caused the value of bitcoin to drop by over 50%, but I don’t see the U.S. banning cryptocurrency. Recently, the U.S. has already given some guidance on how to report it, and now there’s crypto taxing software to help you.
Company adoption: We will need to see the market begin to accept cryptocurrency as a form of payment.

Crypto Crystal Ball

In the end, only time will tell what the future holds for cryptocurrencies. Maybe we’ll become the crypto century, or maybe not. That’s for you to evaluate.

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YFP 254: Home Buying Search: What to Do and What to Avoid

Posted on May 5, 2022November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

Home Buying Search: What to Do and What to Avoid

Nate Hedrick, The Real Estate RPh and co-host of the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast, discusses evaluating online home listings, why open houses exist, how real estate agents get paid, and how the home buying concierge service he developed can help first-time homebuyers.

Episode Summary

Searching for a house to buy can be overwhelming, particularly in today’s fast-paced market. There are several tools for potential home buyers to help them navigate the process, but these can often be confusing. This week, Your Financial Pharmacist Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, welcomes back Nate Hedrick, the Real Estate RPh and co-host of the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast, to discuss what to do and what to avoid in the home buying process. Nate shares four areas you should evaluate when reviewing home listings on the MLS or various real estate sites like Redfin, Zillow, or Realtor.com. He also gives insight into the real reason for an open house, why he prefers private viewings over open houses, how agents get paid, and why it is in your best interest to have your own agent. Listeners will hear some common-sense advice for homebuyers in the current market, general advice on making an offer, the purpose of signing in when visiting an open house, and what to do when asked who your agent is during a viewing. Lastly, Nate explains how the YFP Real Estate Concierge Service works with clients from the beginning to the end of the real estate buying process for first-time buyers and investors.

Key Points From This Episode

The resources that prospective buyers can use to search for homes.
Nate gives us an outline of the Multiple Listing Service (MLS).
What to look out for when viewing listings.
Being able to react quickly to the market to secure a purchase.
Steps to take when viewing a property listing.
The purpose of signing in when viewing a house
What to do when asked about an agent.
Advice on what to do when making an offer.
Rules and regulations regarding listing and buying agents.
The benefits of using a real estate agent when home buying.
A brief rundown of the YFP Real Estate Concierge Service.
Some of the challenges that first-time homebuyers are experiencing.
The best time to start the home buying process.

Highlights

“The things that are missing can be just as evident from the things that are present. Look at those pictures, but also look at what’s not in the pictures.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:07:11]

“I recommend doing a private showing. It’s a great way to get into the house early so that you can really take things on quickly and you can take your time.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:11:32]

“I’ve seen situations where it saves the buyer thousands of dollars because a real estate agent catches something or knows how to ask for something really important.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:17:26]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody, Tim Ulbrich here. Thank you for listening to the YFP podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I had a chance to welcome back a friend of the show, Nate Hedrick, the real estate and RPH and co-host of the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast. Some of my favorite moments from the show include hearing Nate describe the four areas you should be evaluating when reviewing home listings on the MLS or various sites like Redfin, Zillow, or Realtor.com.

The real reason open houses exist and why a private showing is preferred over an open house. How the agents get paid and why is the buyer’s in your best interest to have your own agent? How the home buying concierge service that Nate developed can help a first time homebuyer navigate the process from beginning to end? Folks can learn more about their concierge service and get connected with a local agent by visiting yourfinancialpharmacist.com, and then click on Home buying at the top of the page.

Before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 households in 40 plus states. YFP Planning offers fee only high touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether or not YFP Planning, financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacies achieve financial freedom. Okay. Here’s my interview with Nate Hedrick, the Real Estate RPH.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:42] TU: Nate, welcome back to the show.

[00:01:43] NH: Hey, Tim, always good to be here.

[00:01:45] TU: You and I both know that searching for a house can be an overwhelming process. I’ve gone through the process twice, to be honest. As exciting as it was at times, it was stressful. Not sure I really want to do it again. But here’s the thing. on one hand, we have great access to data, right? With services like Zillow, Redfin, I’m a fan, realtor.com that pulls information from the Multiple Listing Service, the MLS all over the country. But on the other hand, there’s not a lot of direction on what to do with all that information. What’s important? How do I schedule showing? When is the next open house? How do I submit an offer? So today we’re bringing you back on the show to talk and walk us through how to navigate all of this.

Before we jump in to our interview, I want to make sure to remind our listeners that there are some really important financial steps that you should be taking to make sure you’re actually ready to purchase a home, before we go down the rabbit hole that can be searching. So Nate put together a great article on how to manage buying a house despite having student loan debt. We’re going to link to that in the show notes, that was on the YFP blog. We’ve done a few podcast episodes dating way back to September 2018, where we talked through six steps to buying a home. That was a two part series. We did episode 64 and 65. Again, we’ll link to those in the show notes.

These articles, these episodes are really important that we’re laying the foundation. Are we ready before we get into the search? So Nate, let’s assume our listeners have done that up front work. They’re preapproved with a lender and now they’re actually ready to search. Of course there are sites like Zillow and Redfin, but are those the best places to search for homes?

[00:03:23] NH: Yeah. I mean those sites are fine and really great in many cases, but one of the problems with those sites is that they can be out of date, right? So what those sites do, in effect as they pull data, like you mentioned, they pull data from the Multiple Listing Service, which is really the source of truth, and it’s updated by real estate agents. Until those sites are updated the sites like Zillow and Redfin can’t pull the new data. Sometimes they do that scraping slowly and sometimes they do it more quickly.

I have seen examples multiple, multiple times, where clients have reached out and said, “Oh, Nate, can we go look at this place? It looks gorgeous. I saw that. It just came on the market.” Three days ago it was pending, but the site, for whatever reason, didn’t grab that MLS data and update it. But as soon as I logged in, I could actually see that the information. So the sites are awesome for doing up front searches looking at history. They’re very good at looking backward at historical data of what has sold, but truthfully, if you want to get up to the minute true information, you need to get an agent who can get you access to the MLS, so that you can get that data directly.

[00:04:18] TU: Yeah. I remember Nate, I’m sure all agents do this differently, back in 2009, when Jess and I moved to northeast Ohio, working with an agent. They have an MLS portal that we could log in and review in, just seeing the differences, as you mentioned, between that and realtor.com, Redfin, where we’d be really excited about a property contingent and it was already, had been sold. Before we go further, we throw on MLS a lot. Can you just break that down a little bit further? What is the MLS? Obviously, that’s going to be an important piece of what we’re talking about here today.

[00:04:46] NH: Yeah. The MLS is, like I said, the Multiple Listing Service. What this is, is basically an agreement between the brokerage is of a particular area or a particular state. The MLS is divided inter into regions, right? So they can be the entire state, they can be just a large city area. It depends on where you’re located. Basically, the brokerages or the Real Estate Association is within that area have gotten together and said, “We agree to share data between our brokerages and the MLS is how we’re going to share that data.” So brokerages will upload information directly into this database that’s managed by an independent organization and that organization puts out that information for everyone to be able to access. Again, what that allows other real estate agents and professionals to do is to look at that information in real-time so that decisions can be made much more quickly.

[00:05:31] TU: Nate, as you mentioned, sites like Zillow, sites Redfin, sites realtor.com, those are pulling from the MLS, correct?

[00:05:38] NH: Correct. They have some agreement in place where they can, again, scrape that data from the MLS and then show it in whatever way they like to.

[00:05:44] TU: Nate, I think all of us can relate to pulling up a listing, and browsing pictures from our couch, but there are important things that people should be looking for when they’re digging through a listing. Talk about what are those things that folks should be looking for?

[00:05:58] NH: Yeah, absolutely. It’s just pulling up a patient profile before rounds, right? There’s a ton of data to sort through, and it can be important to narrow things down. Like you said, it’s really easy to sit there and just look at the pictures upfront and dream about being in that particular house, but there’s actually a lot of great data there. If you understand what’s available to you, you can glean a lot of information from it. I’ll break it down, four main categories. I think this is how we can do this.

The first is the obvious one, right? The pictures and the video, you can use this information for a lot of things. It’s not just looking at the cosmetics, but you can also look for things like, are there obvious problems? For example, is the roof look like from the photos that it has problems or is there damage within the property that you can see in the photos? Sometimes it’s not just what’s being included, but it’s what’s excluded as well. Just like a missing lab value might tell you more than the myriad of in-range results that you get for a particular patient.

Pictures that are missing can be really telling too. If they say they’ve got a four-bedroom, three bathhouse, but there’s only one picture of one updated bathroom, it starts to make you wonder, “Well, what’s going on with those other two?” Is one of them hidden in the basement somewhere and never been updated in the other ones full of wallpaper that totally out of date. The things that are missing can be just as evident from the things that are present.

Look at those pictures, but also look at what’s not in the pictures. Then like I mentioned before, if you’re getting access to the MLS, a lot of times you’ll see brokers or real estate agents posting video walkthroughs. A lot of times the sites like Zillow and Redfin and things like that can’t pull that data or may not have access to those videos. So asking your agent, “Hey, can you give me access or is there a video of a walkthrough?” You can get that directly to the MLS, that’s the first one.

The next thing you want to look at is your stats, right? These are all of your basic information about that house, everything from bedroom and bathroom count like I mentioned. Things like square footage above and below grade and seeing where that information is coming from is really important too, right? Even as I go to list a property, the seller might say, “Yeah, this is four bedrooms, here are the four bedrooms, you can count them. But if the county records indicate that it’s only a three-bedroom house, or it’s been certified as a three-bedroom house through whatever past history, that fourth bedroom might either not be in the records for a very good reason, or it might actually not count as a bedroom. So again, think about that data and where it’s coming from.

The other things you’ll see is things the year that the house was built, and that can help you look at things like, okay, well if it was built before 1978 for example, there might be lead-based paint in the house. So I need to start thinking about that. If it was still before 1950s, there might be knob-and-tube wiring. So the year that it was built can tell you a lot as well. The last thing you want to look for there is things like the heating and cooling types. Some people depending on your area, this can be much more important than in certain locations, but understanding what type of heating is in that property. Does it have an air conditioner? Does it have a boiler? Does it have whatever? All that can be listed right there for you. It can provide you a lot of information.

The next data point to look for is the government data. So these are things usually displayed by the county that is listed on these websites and through the MLS, and that’s everything from school district, the property taxes. You can actually look at property lines and the parcel itself. You should be able to determine zoning from this. You can see if it’s zoned residential or mixed-use or commercial. Then again, like I said, past sales or rent prices will be listed there as well. That’s all through usually the county website and available.

Then that fourth piece is really the narrative. This is the, again, the physician’s notes. If it were our patient example, but it’s what’s included with the property, it’s what the seller wanted to tell you about it. It’s how they’re trying to sell it. Things disclosures from the listing description or brokers notes that can be available for the MLS again. So there’s a lot of pieces that you can look for on just what seems like a simple place to check out pictures.

[00:09:39] TU: Nate that was great stuff. You talked about for pictures and the video, the stats, the government data, the narrative. As you were talking, I was envisioning. That has to be a great way to set up a spreadsheet and record this information. My question, though, is with today’s market, analyzing all this information, really doing due diligence like things are moving quickly, though, right?

[00:09:56] NH: Yeah.

[00:09:57] TU: I think that’s one of the challenges in today’s market is making sure we have all the information, obviously, to be comfortable, to feel confident moving forward, but things are moving and getting the information that we need, but also being able to react quickly.

[00:10:09] NH: Making sure that you’re not making a mistake by reacting too quickly, right? So if you’re looking for a particular school district and it’s on the street that you’ve been looking at before, but you skip the government data and you skip the fact that it’s actually across the street, and that’s a different school district that could have huge ramifications on price and everything that goes along with it, taxes especially. So knowing where those pieces of information are upfront, so that you can move quickly is super important.

[00:10:33] TU: Nate, we dig through all of the background information. We found a house or several homes that we like want to look at. How do we go see the property? What’s the strategy here?

[00:10:42] NH: Yeah. So there’s generally two options to see a property, I guess. Three, I’ll talk to all three, but basically, the most common one that people think of, I think more often than not is an open house, right? Where you’re going to have the listing agent present, the doors are open, the house is vacant, and you’ve got the ability to walk through that with everybody else. I think the classic example of this is come by Sunday at 2:00 and there’s 30 cars in the driveway and you’re touring it with everybody else. Usually, those open houses will be again on the weekends and in the listing description or somewhere on the website you’ll be able to see when that open house or when the next open house will be.

If it’s not listed, they either might not have one or it might be not something that the data was able to be scraped on. So make sure that you ask your agent, “Is there going to be an open house?” But that’s only one way to go see the house, right? You have virtual showings as well. Or you could do private showing, where you can set up through the either listing agent or through your own agent to go see the house on your own time, and on your own terms.

Generally speaking, I recommend doing a private showing. It’s a great way to get into the house early so that you can really take things on quickly and you can take your time, right? You’re not shuffling around other people. You’re not trying to debate who else might be putting in an offer. You’re really spending the time that you need to evaluate. Is this the property for me? Again, in most cases, your agent can get that set up for a time that’s convenient for you. So rather than forcing it into Sunday at 2:00, you could do it at 8:00 at night or 7:00 at night after you’ve done the long working day. So lots of options with that.

[00:12:04] TU: Yeah. There’s nothing some pressure, right Nate? When you’re walking around open house and ten, 20 other people are looking at the house, you start to feel like, I got to act quickly –

[00:12:11] NH: Exactly, exactly.

[00:12:12] TU: Nate, I remember going to open houses in the past and one of the first things that they would have me do is sign in and then they would ask if I have an agent. Honestly, I never really thought much about that. So tell us more about what’s going on there. What am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to say in that situation?

[00:12:29] NH: Yeah. Your best bet is just to be honest, right? This not a test or them trying to figure out if you’re supposed to be there. If it’s an open house, you are absolutely supposed to be there, right? Even if you’re not a qualified buyer, the whole point of an open house is to come look, so that’s okay. The best thing you can do is to be honest on that and what the agent is trying to do there. It’s one of the worst kept secrets of the real estate industry, is that open houses are not actually to sell a house. I know that sounds counterintuitive, but truthfully, in age of the Internet, they get plenty of marketability by just putting it on the MLS and letting Zillow and everybody else see it, right?

What the open house is designed to do is to drum up business for that real estate agent. So what they’re doing is they’re saying, “If you, Tim, are come into my open house and you’re ready to buy and you’re looking at houses in this area, but you don’t have an agent to work with, well, then you’re the perfect client for me,” right? “I can help you. I know clearly this area. I’m already working here and I’ve got a listing. I’d love to help you out with that.” So what we’re doing as agents when we’re holding it open house is trying to show the property, certainly, but more often than not, that agent is there to drum up their own business and try to create opportunities for themselves.

[00:13:34] TU: Nate, I go to the open house, I love the house. How do I make an offer? Well, using that listing agent save me money? Will that help in the negotiations?

[00:13:42] NH: Yeah. A lot of people assume this right, where, “I’ll use the listing agent, because then I’ll save money. I won’t have my own agent.” So there it is, but let me explain a little bit about how an agent is paid. I think that will dispel that myth. I’ll say this, there are times where that can be the case where it can save you something on commission, but the reality is not very often. So the way that the typical commission is paid is that the seller sits down with the listing agent and they agree on a price. They basically say, “Okay, I’m going to list your house for you. Here’s all the things that I’m going to do in terms of marketing, in terms of exposure, in terms of open houses. For doing all of that, when the house sells, I need you to pay me 6%.”

That might be high. That might be low. It totally depends on your area and the property that you’re talking about and the price point and all that. Let’s just assume it’s 6%. Well, that 6% then get split between the selling agent and the buying agent. So the person that actually brings a buyer to the property. So typically it’s a 50/50 split, 3% going to the listing agent, 3% going to the buyer. So if I come as a buyer with no agent whatsoever now all of a sudden that 6% doesn’t have to be split. What happens most often is that agent that’s listing the property simply keeps the 6%. It’s already been agreed upon, it’s already been signed by the seller. They don’t have to reduce that price at all.

You could, in theory negotiate with them to say, “Hey, if I don’t use an agent, can we get this down to 5%? Or can you take 1% off your commission or something like that?” That may work, but what you’re missing is that you don’t have an agent representing your best interest. The goal of that listing agent is to sell that property for as much as possible, because they’re representing their sellers interests. There are a lot of great real estate agents out there that will do their absolute best to split that difference between representing the buyer and the seller, but the reality is that they negotiated and worked at that seller first, and they have an obligation to treat them as best they can to get them the best price.

It can look like a savings, because you’re taking 1% off the commission or whatever, but if you don’t have an agent advocating for you, looking for the things that that agent isn’t there to help you look for, you might miss out on something even greater than that 1%, and it’s totally not even worth it.

[00:15:47] TU: Nate, does this vary from state-to-state? I’m not sure of the rules here of whether or not I don’t know what the term is dual representation, but of where someone’s acting is both the buying and the selling. I remember signing disclosures confirming that that wasn’t happening, talk to us more about what is or is not allowed here, and whether or not that very state-to-state.

[00:16:03] NH: Yeah. There’s a couple pieces here that we can break down. The first is whether or not that agent is actually representing you. So what you’re referring to is called dual agency, where that agent is representing both the buyer and the seller in a transaction. That idea of dual agency is allowed in some states, it’s not allowed in others. Some brokerages actually have a restriction on that. The broker was saying, “Look, we will never be a dual agent and here’s why.” But it’s permissible in a lot of areas. The other option or the other more likely scenario is that you’re going to be unrepresented. So you are coming in as a customer, not a client. So the agent that is selling the property represents the seller. They are not representing you in the transaction at all. They are simply helping you through it. So you’re a customer, not a client.

Again, I think understanding what that relationship is, if you are going to enter into an agreement like that and knowing what that means for you in terms of, “Are you actually my agent or are you simply an agent of the seller and helping me through the transaction?”

[00:16:57] TU: Nate, it sounds like having an agent’s a win-win better representation on your end as a buyer and doesn’t cost you anything, am I reading that, right?

[00:17:04] NH: Yeah. I mean, as long as you have the right agent on your team, someone that knows the market, what to look for, knows how to represent you in negotiations. Navigating the contracts like that is somebody that is a really important asset to you. As agents, we walk through these property deals all the time. You might be a first time homebuyer and have never done this before. So having somebody on your team that knows how to navigate all those pieces, they can be dramatically important. I mean, I’ve seen situations where it saves the buyer thousands of dollars, because a real estate agent catches something or knows how to ask for something really important.

I just had a situation come up recently with a buyer. It came back that there was a leak, it was a pretty simple leak, but it was at the water main of the house where it came in from the city. So the inspector said, “Yeah, this needs to be fixed. It’s leaking right now. It’s probably going to be a couple hundred bucks to fix it.” At first the buyer said, “Well, okay, that’s fine. I’ll just handle it myself when I buy the property.” But I said, “Well, hold on. This is a leak that is active, meaning that it has the potential to get worse. Meaning it could damage the property.” So this is something that the seller should address right away. “I’ll get this taken care of for you.” A quick phone call to the agent, and they agreed like that to say, “Oh yeah, we’ll handle that completely.”

Only a couple hundred bucks, but something that they didn’t have to deal with after they moved in, something that protected the property from getting worse and something that, again, going unrepresented, the buyer wouldn’t have bothered messing with. So having that right agent, somebody that can really advocate for you can really make the difference. Again, not to start plugging a service, but that’s exactly why we created the concierge service, the home buying concierge, because it’s designed to get you connected with really great agents that can have your best interests in mind.

[00:18:35] TU: I would encourage folks to check out episode 160 – Nate, you did an episode navigating the home buying process through the concierge service with Shelby Bannett, and Bryce Plott. I think that service really comes alive throughout that episode and the value that it has. Walk us through briefly, what is that concierge service? What value does it provide? What can folks expect and where can they go to learn more?

[00:18:55] NH: Yeah, so this all came about, because when I bought my first property, I had no idea how to find a good real estate agent, right? I just asked a friend, I Googled around and we ended up with an okay agent. It was fine. It all worked out great, but it just felt like there should be a better process to this. Again, especially if you’re somebody that’s moving out of state or to a new area, you might not know anybody there. So how do you wade through the myriad of real estate agents in finding somebody that’s actually going to be on your team? So what we created was the real estate concierge service, the whole idea being that you can sit down with me through a 30-minute prep call to really walk through your goals, your budget, what your must haves are, and starting to figure out what property you’re looking for.

Then once I’ve got that information, we’ll go out and find a real estate agent, that’s really a good fit for you, somebody that’s going to be that has the experience you need, somebody that knows the property types that you’re looking for, somebody that again is just going to be the right fit on your team, and it takes all that guesswork out of it. So again, the process is simple. You go online, you can go to yfprealestate.com, or you can go to your financialpharmacist.com/buyahome and you can tap into the book a call with Nate, and we’ll sit down and talk about what your needs are. I’ll get you connected with an agent and then you can get off and running. You can know that you’ve got somebody on your team that’s going to help you through that process.

The thing I really have been advocating for recently, too, is that it’s not just us handing off to an agent, right? I stay on your team through that whole process. I just had two emails this morning from a client who had a question. They didn’t feel like they were getting the full answer from their real estate agent. They said, “Can you just double check this for me, Nate? I want to have somebody else that knows what’s going on actually in answering this.” I confirm, “Yes, what the real estate agent is saying is accurate. Totally, you can believe them.” It gives that peace of mind behind the buying process with somebody that knows what they’re doing.

[00:20:38] TU: Yeah. I think especially for first time home buyers, right? It’s a big decision. We’re in this wild market that is, things are moving so quickly and I think just to have someone throughout process beginning and have a second opinion, examples you just gave would highly encourage folks to check that out. You’ve done an awesome job building this out.

[00:20:53] NH: Thanks.

[00:20:54] TU: Agents across the country in different areas, few different ways you can get there. Nate mentioned go to yourfinancialpharmacies.com, click on buy a home. We’ll link to that in the show notes. You can get a yfprealestate.com, so it’s not just for primary residence, for those that are looking at investing in real estate and finding an investor friendly agent also really, really important. Or you can go to realestaterph.com and that will all point you to the same place, which is a conversation with Nate. We’ll link to all of those in the show notes.

Nate, before we wrap up. Got to pick your brain every time that we talk about home buying in the last, seems since the pandemic. Each month it brings a different angle, different know, right? Here we are. Believe it or not, I seen interest rate on 30 year fixed mortgages starting to creep up closer, and closer, and closer to 5%. That is hard to believe when we look back in the middle of the pandemic, we were seeing 30 year fixed rates below 3% for a period of time. I remember back to October 2018 when we bought our home that was in the four or six ranges fixed rates on a 30 year mortgage and I thought maybe we’re not going to see that high again and here we are.

We’ve got now continued supply and demand issues. We’ve got more buyers and there are properties that are out there, and now we’ve got rates that are creeping up, so I think this affordability of home for first time homebuyers is becoming more and more challenging. Talk to us about what you’re seeing and what are some of the challenges the folks are facing.

[00:22:16] NH: Yeah. I think there’s a lot that goes into this, right? I think the biggest thing like you said, is the affordability, because if you’re all of a sudden jumping up a percentage point in rate, that could be a couple of hundred bucks. It could be even more depending on your market. So it can really start to affect, okay, well, what house can I afford? If people are going to be offering over asking price and competing with offers 20, 30, $40,000 over asking, that is going to start to go away, I think, as these interest rates climb even further. It doesn’t mean that the houses are unaffordable, but I think you’re going to start to see a shift back down.

I do want you to keep in mind too, in perspective, the interest rates we have today even if it is five, even 6% over the historical average, that’s still really, really low. It’s still below what inflation was in the last six months right? So historically, that’s not bad. It’s just when you compare that to the last two years, it feels like we’re in this state of, “Oh, my gosh, we’re really on these rising rates and it’s never going to end.” So put that in a little bit of historical perspective for yourself before getting too nervous. But I do think we’re going to start to see a shift in the market as a result of these changes.

[00:23:15] TU: Nate, one last question I have for you. If I’m someone listening and ready, I’m looking now versus, hey I’m thinking about this over the next three to six to 12 months. When is the right time to potentially connect with you and ultimately get connected with an agent?

[00:23:26] NH: Yeah. I think there’s never a bad time to connect with me. I think the best time is probably when you’re around six months out or sooner. I mean, it can be, you’re ready right now when you’re ready to look and we just are having look, we need a good agent or it can be again, we’re six months away, and I want to start planning ahead. If you’re before that, it’s probably a bit early to connect with an agent, but it’s a great time to start thinking about your overall finances, your budget, all the other things that we’ve talked about in the past about getting ready to buy a home. So once you get to that point where you’re in the ready state, that’s a great time to connect with me. Even if you’re not actively looking, we can start to talk through goals, objectives, things that are going to help you make that process that much easier.

[00:24:03] TU: Great stuff, Nate, as always. Really appreciate your insights to the YFP community and taking the time to come on the show. Thank you so much.

[00:24:09] NH: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Tim.

[OUTRO]

[00:24:11] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information to the podcasts and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates publish. Such information may contain forward looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacists.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 227: Why Tim Baker, CFP® Bought a Depreciating Asset

Posted on October 28, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

Why Tim Baker, CFP® Bought a Depreciating Asset

On this episode, sponsored by GoodRx, Tim Baker talks about his recent decision to buy a depreciating asset, how his journey becoming a Registered Life Planner® (RLP®) impacted his decision, and how he coaches clients considering big financial purchases.

Summary

Your Financial Pharmacist co-owner & YFP Planning Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, talks about his recent decision to buy a depreciating asset. He explains why he would purchase an asset that he knows will go down in value and how it became part of his financial plan.

Tim shares what the depreciating asset purchase is and how he and his wife arrived at their decision. After learning a bit about life planning and its incorporation with the financial plan, Tim realized that one of his goals was to make lifelong memories with his family. Tim and his wife decided that purchasing a motorhome was part of their life plan, allowing them to take adventures across the country, creating those lifelong memories, as Tim did with his own family growing up.

He explains how his journey to becoming a Registered Life Planner® (RLP®) surfaced this experience-based purchase and how the financial plan can and should support the life plan. Tim further details his coaching philosophy when working with clients weighing whether or not to make a large purchase. He considers the entire picture, not just the ones and zeros, creating a plan that benefits the client financially, balancing financial wealth with the client’s idea of a wealthy life. Investing in yourself in ways that align with what a wealthy life means to you ultimately makes for a healthy financial plan by taking care of the whole person.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, welcome back to the show.

Tim Baker: Yeah, good to be back, Tim. Thanks for having me on.

Tim Ulbrich: Before we jump into your story of purchasing a depreciating asset, you and I were talking this past week about how grateful we are for the journey that has been this podcast over the past several years. We started Episode 01 back in July 2017, didn’t know exactly where we were going to go, how long we were going to do it, but are grateful to be here today, over 225 episodes in, three different shows on the channel each week, recently surpassing an important milestone: 750,000 downloads of the show, so pretty awesome, right, to reflect on that journey?

Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s incredible, really. You know, we talk with a lot of prospective clients that we work with one-on-one with YFP Planning. You know, when you get those comments of like, ‘I’ve been listening to you for so long,’ and you kind of build a relationship with your listeners and you know, after the red drains from my face experience in that, it’s also very something that I’m proud of and I think we should be. And it’s been a good forum to really showcase, you know, like what we believe and our approach to money, and I think this is — and wealth building — and I think this particular episode is another step in that. And you know, it’s just been a great forum for us I think to take something that maybe is a little bit — can be a little bit dry and boring for people and get them excited about it. And I think the podcast has been one of the most monumental things that we’ve done. And that was really kind of the first big thing that we’ve done together, Tim.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: And I think it’s been just a great launchpad for our partnership.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And one of the great joys we have is, you know, we get periodic emails from those that are listening to say, “Hey, Tim, I was listening to this podcast and I did this or it inspired me to take some action or to work toward this goal,” and you know, those mean so much to us. I think the goal with this podcast is to hopefully inspire, to motivate, to educate, and we believe this topic is a lifelong journey. It’s something that we’ve practiced in our own lives and I’m hopeful that folks find it as a source of inspiration. So all this to say thank you, thank you to the community for listening, for staying with us, for sharing the good news with others as well, and we appreciate those that have been listening to the podcast and many who have even contributed with being a guest on the show. Alright, Tim, it’s confession time. So I’m putting you on the hot seat in front of the 35,000 or so folks that listen to the show each month to really, you know, ask you why as a financial planner did you decide to make a purchase of a depreciating asset. And so let’s just start with the purchase. What was it? When did you make it? And give us a little bit of the why behind that.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so my wife and I, we purchased a Class C Thor motorhome over the summer. It’s about 30-31 feet. It sleeps 10, so it has a bunkhouse, you know, bunker with a cab, kitchen, bathroom, you know, the whole — dinette — the whole 9. And yeah, we purchased it over the summer from a guy here in Ohio. And it was a long time coming — well, I wouldn’t say a long time coming. It was and it wasn’t. But that was the purchase that we made, and for someone who is very much thinking about finances and things like this and growing wealth, this was not necessarily a move that helps in that department. You know, lots of storage costs and repairs and it’s a 20 — I think it’s a 2014 with about 40,000 miles on it, storage, insurance, the tax that we paid on all that stuff adds up. But probably one of the better decisions I think I’ve made, even in — it’s early, so check in with me later — but I think just great in terms of what I think this can do for our family and the experiences that we can have. And that’s really the crux of why we decided to kind of pull the trigger on this.

Tim Ulbrich: So it’s been over a month, right, now, maybe even two?

Tim Baker: Yeah. I think we bought it in August.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Tim Baker: So we’re recording here in October. I think August is when we purchased it. Yeah. So — and back up, like this was something — and I give my parents a lot of credit growing up. When I was preteen, my parents bought — we first had a travel trailer growing up, so like we had one of those old conversion minivans and a travel trailer. And we took a trip when the three of us were I think preteens. I have an older brother and a younger sister. And we did four weeks, and I grew up in south Jersey, kind of outside of Philadelphia. And we did a four-week trip to as far west as the Grand Canyon, Mount Rushmore, the Alamo, Yellowstone. And for me, that was transformational. And I think that’s one of the words that I would use for this episode is really that. And you know, it kind of really changed my perspective, oh wow, when you drive west, there’s just — just the topography and there’s just so much to see and people are just different and they speak different. And it really broadened my — I don’t know if I would say worldview, but at least my domestic view of the United States and really kind of lit a fire for me to want to travel and see other things. You know, we did other trips outside of that and my parents would take it up to West Point for football weekends, and it was always like a great reprieve, like being able to go inside and like kind of hang — like chill and not always be buttoned up in uniform and things like that. So I kind of just equated that to freedom. And for awhile, you know, I was like, man, I would love to do this with — I was first thinking like when I retire, so like when I’m in my 60s, 70s, and you know, get a big old rig and drive around. But I just started thinking more and more, and as I went through my experience with life planning, really kind of changed my perception or at least my timeline, so to speak.

Tim Ulbrich: So Tim, I want to talk for a moment, you know, we talk on this show before we — I know the planning team does as well. Anytime you’re making a significant purchase or any purchase, for that matter, it means you’re not doing something else with that money, right? So the economic term here being opportunity cost. So you know, as you’re looking at making this large purchase, I know I’ve heard you talk about real estate as a goal, obviously something that you and I are both bullish on and see a growing interest in our community and in large part why we’ve got the podcast that David Bright and Nate Hedrick are doing a bang-up job leading each and every Saturday. So whether you look at say, hey, could this money go to real estate? Could this money go into long-term investing or a brokerage account? You know, could this money go into the 529 account? I think this concept of opportunity cost is — we often talk about it in terms of the dollars and making a decision, but I think there’s also an opportunity cost to not making decisions as we make the connections of how our life plan is supported by the financial plan. So just to nerd out here for a moment, if you were to put $40,000 or let’s say $50,000 and save that for 40 years at 8%, you know, that’s $1 million. So there’s the $50,000 purchase, and then there’s that hidden cost of what that could be if that money were to grow over 40 years. So just talk us through that process as you evaluated this purchase. I suspect others might be thinking the same as they’re weighing big purchases. Like, how did you both consider the opportunity cost and then eventually get to the point where you overcame just the mathematical aspects of it to determine that this was the right decision for you, for the family, and the goals that you guys have?

Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s a great question. And you know, I think for all the way up until almost like go time, you know, it was real estate investment. You know, we — my Ally account that this money was being, like where this money was, was called “Real Estate Investment Account.” It might still be called that. I don’t know if I ever changed it to like “Motor Home Account.” I mean, it’s fairly empty now. We paid cash for this, and I didn’t want to put a note on it, so I wanted to kind of keep in the budget that we were — that we had. But you know, I think it comes down to like windows, right? So I’m really bullish on real estate, and we have one property that we completely gutted and redid our home in Baltimore and are renting that out now since we’ve now moved out to Columbus, Ohio. And that’s been great. And I wanted, I definitely want to do more of this. But when I say “windows,” it’s kind of windows of time. And that’s what life planning is really about. And you know, specifically about the length of your life, but in this case, when we sat down and we were looking at our plan, I asked my wife Shea, I was like, “Is this really what you want to do?” And she’s like, “Yeah, of course it is. This has been — this is the plan.” And we kind of had this role reversal because I’m more of the — and I see this a lot in couples. I’m more of the person that is thinking like long-term and making sure that we’re doing what we need to do to have a wealthy life in the future. And my wife is typically like, hey, we’ve got to make sure that we’re doing — we’re living our life today.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: But in this case, it was kind of a little bit of a role reversal. And I asked like, you know, I asked the question, is this really what you want to do? And she’s like, well yeah, that’s the plan. But then once I said kind of a combination of these words, she’s like, you’re right. So I basically — what I said to her was, Olivia, our oldest — we have Olivia who turns 7 this Halloween, so in about a week or so. She’ll tell everyone about it. She turns 7 this year. And we have Liam, who turned 2 this year. What I was examining, like I was kind of thinking about this as like, we only really have with her, I don’t know, six, seven years maybe until, you know, we’re no longer cool, like she doesn’t want to hang out with us. You know, you get to the teen years —

Tim Ulbrich: And we’re running out of time.

Tim Baker: Yeah, we’re running out of time.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Tim Baker: And you know, I thought about that even with like the trip that I took that, you know, my brother two years older than me, he was kind of right on that preteen. And we had a good time, but I don’t know — like a summer or two after that, I don’t know if that trip would have worked. So when I put that in context in that kind of emotional tug that that gives you and specifically my wife, she’s like, where do we buy a motorhome? Like where do we do this? And that was really it. You know, that was really what brought us is that, you know, I view this purchase as an investment. You know, so many people view this as an expense. And if you do that, it doesn’t really work. And believe me, there are lots of expenses that are tied to this. But if you view this as an investment, you know, a memory-maker investment, that’s where it works. And I’ve had conversations, you know, we kind of bought the motorhome with my sister and her family in mind. They have twins that are a little bit older than Olivia and our boys are about 10 days apart, so they’re like best bros. So we kind of bought it with them in mind, hoping to share this with their family as well. But they’ve actually been thinking about buying their own and kind of doing big trips and like taking a year of that and all this kind of stuff. And for them, it’s hard to get — like they’re doing it down to the penny in terms of expenses. I’m just thinking — like it’s just tough, that’s a tough sell. It is a tough sell. And I get it. Like as a financial planner, it’s good to do that. But for me, this was really about letting go a little bit. And again, I know in the back of my mind that we’re going to be OK for the future and we’re doing a lot of things in that regard and we have a fully-funded emergency fund and all of those things. But to me, like the emotion, which is what drives our choices of I want my kids to experience similar things that I was fortunate enough to experience as I was growing up, and I think we only have a window of time — and not to say that when she’s a teen and things like that, but when you’re camping, like to me, it’s close quarters. Like you’ve really got to love your kids and your family and I think it gets harder as you get to be a little bit older. But that was the impetus, really. And a lot of that really is rooted in my own life planning journey of how we got to even make this transaction.

Tim Ulbrich: Such a good, reminder, Tim, about, you know, if we only look at the numbers — and here, you’re talking about one thing. I would argue that applies to other things as well where if you’re looking at this only as an expense, we would never make these life planning decisions.

Tim Baker: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: Or these decisions that spark the life, right? I mean, I get the numbers. If instead of buying a motorhome, whether that’s $40,000, $50,000, $60,000, whatever — let’s call it $50,000, if instead of buying the motorhome, you saved $50,000 and you put it into a long-term savings account and it grows for 40 years and you have $1 million. In one, we’re looking at $50,000 of a purchase that’s going to go down in value and has other expenses. And in the other, we’re looking at an investment that’s appreciating and is going to be worth $1 million or more. Like but what we’re really trying to highlight through this journey and through the discussion around the planning process and the importance of bringing out these goals and visions that you have for your plan and for the family and for you individually is that it can’t just be about the numbers and the expense. And Tim, you’ve mentioned a couple times now life planning. Tell us more about what is life planning and how did your journey in going through not only your own life planning but ultimately being registered as a life planner and being able to use that skill set for clients of YFP Planning and training the rest of the team? Like what is that life planning process? And how did going through that journey ultimately lead you down this decision here?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I found out about life planning kind of George Kinder, who’s kind of the founding father of life planning, and his three questions. And it’s something that once I went through the three questions myself years ago, I immediately incorporated that into kind of our goal setting. We call it Script Your Plan at YFP Planning. And we’re — that’s what we’re doing is we’re kind of saying, OK, now that we know kind of where we’re at, we’ve gone through a get organized, where is all the — what do the finances look like, let’s talk about where we want to go. So we do the three questions with clients now, but I think for me, what I — it was powerful to go through that myself when I was answering those questions, and I found out that there’s a registered life planning designation, RLP, that I just finished this year. And really, it’s been a couple years in the process that I have been going through that. What life planning is, to back up, they say it’s kind of financial planning done right. It’s really about putting first things first. You know, we often live our lives by like a paradigm that is not ours. It’s been kind of something that’s been dictated to us over the course of our lives, you know, get good grades, get a good job, earn a lot of money, that type of thing. But for a lot of us, we kind of get stuck on that, stuck in that, and we can sometimes fall into this state of not really examining our lives and not really saying like, is this really what I want? Is this what I’m doing right now, is this what a wealthy life is? And again, it’s not just about the 1s and 0s, it’s about what are you passionate about? What enriches your life? So years ago, I went out to Arizona and I did the first step, which was the seven stages of money maturity, which kind of focuses on listening, believe it or not. So as planners, we need to shut up. And so much of us, we see like student loans, OK, this is what you do, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And there’s a plan. But it’s really about focusing on your client and being there with them, being present with them, and not trying to overpower or not listen. And it’s about communication, kind of the client-planner attitudes, the biases and behaviors that we grow up with, so understanding that. You know, one being money is the root of all evil. Like where does that come from? Or you know, don’t trust — like some of those things were built into me I think. You know, my mom came from a very — her upbringing was tough. And I think some of those were kind of implanted on me. And you go, I have to understand that. And we see a lot of clients with that type of thing. So that was eye-opening. And really the next stage, which I think was truly transformational, was a five-day in-person training called The Evoke Life Planning Training. And this is where you actually go through the different stages of life planning. So I was life planned myself. And I life planned my partner Dan, so shout out to Dan. And I think this for me was very transformational. I kind of went into that training not knowing what to really expect but came out saying like, I am burnt out. My schedule is not mine. You know, kind of what I’m doing right now is not healthy. And from there, you know, I changed a lot of things. But the big thing that I took away from that was my vision meeting, which is the second — you know, it’s all about uncovering your kind of most exciting, meaningful, and fulfilling aspirations. And when Dan went through that with me and lit my torch, it was about really the motorhome and doing that with my family. And I still remember that meeting like it was yesterday. And you know, you go through that and you know, you create so much energy that that’s all I think about. Like that’s all I thought about for a while. And it took me longer than I thought to get it done, but you know, you could run through walls. And then finally, the life plan that you go through like a mentorship, which is like a six-month thing where you go through case studies and one-on-one guidance and group conferences and things like that. So that finished this year. And to me, the challenge that I have now is how do I best inculcate and integrate, I should say, the life planning methodologies into what we’re doing with clients. Right now, we do portions of it, and I tested out kind of the full Evoke method on clients and trying to figure out how to best balance getting to the core of what a client is passionate about but also making sure that we’re soothing the pain that are student loans, investments, tax questions, insurance, home buying, all that stuff. So that’s my challenge going forward. But I think to me, it’s where you really create and have meaningful relationships, meaningful conversations. And that’s what the RLP is about. And I think without me going through it personally, I don’t think that we would be at this step. And like I said, to go back to the whole if you invest this money, what would it be in 30 years? $1 million. I’m like, that’s great. But I would suspect that if you asked a 30-year-older version of myself, I would trade that $1 million for I think the experiences that we’re going to have with this investment, the RV, and with my family. And that’s I think what this is really about.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think that’s what a good coach does, right, what you just mentioned there is ask that question or ask the right set of questions that get somebody thinking about what might 30-year-into-the-future self think of this looking back? And you know, I think there’s some good accountability in that process. I think as you’ve gone through the RLP and just briefly scratched the surface here, I think that has really enriched the planning process and obviously you seeing the value of that being able to bring that effort to clients of YFP Planning, so I’m grateful for that. Tim, I’m looking at your credentials now on LinkedIn. You’re starting to look like a pharmacist with all these letters after your name.

Tim Baker: Alphabet soup. Yeah, I know. I’m working on a few others.

Tim Ulbrich: I was going to say, you’ve got one coming down the pipe, right, the RICP is coming. So.

Tim Baker: Yeah, if I can study, if I can get studying for it, yeah. I mean — and again, I think, you know, one of the things that one of our core values at YPF is optimize you and you know, I’ve been in organizations where it’s stagnant because hey, we’ve figured everything out and we’ve seen everything. And I think that’s just poison to an organization. So you know, I’m not necessarily one for designations just to get them, but I look at it in terms of what can this provide to our practice? How can this further benefit the clients that we serve? And you know, I think that is important. And you know, having that. And it’s funny. I always kind of go back to this story. When I graduated from West Point, I’m like, ‘Well, that’s it. I’m done with school. I never have to pick up a book or do anything.’ And you know, really that changed more when I became an entrepreneur and now I’m a — I read all the time and listen to podcasts and I’m always trying to figure out ways to do things. And I think, you know, that’s the message really even to our clients is keep evolving and keep sharpening the salt, so to speak. You know, I think that it just, it leads to more of an enriched life but also I think it just can continually improve your skill set. And again, like the RLP, the Registered Life Planning, there are advisors, financial advisors, that have taken this training and have stopped being financial advisors. Like all they do is the front end life planning and then they hand it off to advisors. And I actually thought of like even doing that internally is you know, having just life planners that are doing this front-end work that it’s a form of planning, it’s a form of coaching, and then hand it off to our CFPs to kind of, you know, put a lot of that into practice. So it’s an option that I’ve been playing around with. And I think the cool thing about this is you don’t have to have all of the other financial designations to do this, but to me, it’s how do we further enrich ourselves, enrich the lives of our clients?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and you mentioned Kinder and the three questions. We’re going to link to those in the show notes for those that want to dig a little bit deeper. And for those that are hearing this in real time saying, “Hey, I’m really interested in having a financial plan that also considers some of what we’re talking about here around the life plan,” we would love to have an opportunity to talk with you to see if the services offered at YFP Planning are a good fit for you and the financial goals that you have. We do a free discovery call, you can learn more, schedule that at YFPPlanning.com. Tim, talk me through the process not only that you use but in coaching clients of YFPP that are making a big financial purchase, right? It could be a home, whether that’s a first home, an investment property, a vacation home, could be a car, could be a motorhome. What questions are you prodding to help them reflect upon that purchase that hopefully leads to a situation where there’s a purchase that has confidence behind it and not one that leads to buyer’s remorse?

Tim Baker: I think that you know, this is a process, right? So it’s not — you can’t look at it in a silo. I probably wouldn’t have made this type of purchase without a good, solid foundation. So like you know, cash emergency fund, a good savings plan beyond that, I think doing well in the investments, stable job, all those things. But beyond that, you know, like what we often ask clients is if we get into the Delorean, the imaginary Delorean, and we go ahead five years, like what does success look like? You know? If we look back at those five years. And I like to kind of equate age with that because I’m turning 40 next year, Tim, so like in 30 years, I’ll be 70, which is kind of like where my parents are. My dad’s a little bit older than that. So like trying to put myself in their shoes and like what do I want to accomplish because the further away it gets, the harder it is for us to kind of like feel that time. So I think framing it — and just for a lot of us, it’s actually just sitting down and actually asking some of these questions of ourselves. Like I said, I always tell the story when I was — my first job out of the Army was Sears/Kmart. So I would drive to work in the dark at 5 in the morning, and I would drive home in the dark at probably 6 at night or 7 at night or something like that. And those drives I would never remember. Like I would get in my car, and I was on autopilot. And so many of us, like that’s our life is like we’re not really thinking. It’s kind of an automatic thing, so like even asking ourselves these questions, so I think it’s — that’s part of it. It’s just going through that process and examining is this what we want to do? And if it’s not, what the heck are we doing about it? So like one of the things I say to prospective clients, you know, we might go through the wealth-building stage of the financial plan and we’ll do a nest egg calculation that says, ‘Hey, Tim, you need $5 million to retire.’ And that’s typically where they look at us like we have 5 million heads, right, because it’s a big number that’s in the future that doesn’t really mean anything to me. So you know, we go through the process of kind of discounting that back to a number that says, OK, if you’re putting this into your TSP or this into your IRA or this into your 401k a month, you’re on track or you’re off track, right? So we can kind of break that down into more of a digestible number to see if we’re trending to that goal given, you know, a handful of assumptions. But the point of this story is if we do work together for the next 30 years, and you don’t have $5 million, you have $7 million, $8 million, $10 million, whatever that is, that’s great. Like those numbers are bigger than $5 million. But if you’re miserable because you look back at that list of all the things that you wanted to do over 30 years, 20 years, 10 years, whatever that is, and you haven’t done anything and you’re miserable because of it or you’re disappointed, the question I would ask you is what’s the freaking point?

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Tim Baker: Why get this education, why earn this money, why pay down this debt, why invest, whatever, if we’re not going to intentionally direct it to the things that matter to you most? And I don’t think that I’m going to be on my death bed and I’m going to say, “I wish I would not have bought that RV.” I just don’t think that in my heart of hearts because of just — I just think about the reaction that my daughter and my nieces had, just when we pulled that up. And even the two camping trips that I had, I think I snapped a few pictures and texted them to you, Tim, even in our first camping trips, it’s going to be an adventure. And to extrapolate that out, like that’s our lives. Our lives are adventures. But we have to be willing to take it, you know, and seize it. And I think that’s what life planning really tries to get to the surface is what is that adventure? And taking that road and not necessarily adapt to a paradigm that’s not yours.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and you talked about this, I think there’s some really practical things, right, making sure do I have a good foundation in place? We talked about that on Episode 212, you know, what does it look like to have a good, strong financial foundation in place. You know, looking at the value that this purchase is going to add, what are the alternatives, right? We talked a little bit about opportunity cost. You know, waiting a little bit before making that purchase and feeling that peace and the thought that went behind making the decision. But you know, as you highlighted, I think the example of fast forward looking back and really asking some good questions to reflect on that, so, so important. So and you mentioned that — if I heard you correctly — it’s the Thor, right? Which is great. I just see like Tim Baker behind the wheel of the Thor and think of the Thor films, which is fantastic.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Where has it gone so far? Where is the Thor going in the future?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so we’ve just done basically weekend trips in Ohio. We’ve just done camping sites that are within a few hours’ drive. So we went up to Cedar Villa one — that was our most recent one. I think next year it’s really looking at some of the national parks. And it’s a lot — it actually is different than growing up. Like you have to book these pretty well in advance, so if we want to go to Yosemite or things like that. And you know, I kind of look at this as like, you know, some summers of adventure is really to get the kids, especially when Olivia is not in school, and go out and do it, you know? And you know, a lot of it is, you know, just being outside of your comfort zone. I don’t think I’ve ever driven something this big, but it’s fun. And you know, it can be a little stressful, and that can be true for whatever your life plan is is that it can be outside of your comfort zone. But it’s one of those things that, again, I’m tooling down the road and I look back and the two boys are in their car seat just gabbing on and the girls are doing their thing. And it’s brought me a lot of fulfillment already, and I think one of the things Shea and I have a long drive here this afternoon heading back to Maryland for a wedding. That’s one of the things we’re going to talk about too is what is the slate of trips? And start scheduling them. And I’m really excited for that. So it’s a journey. And I’m excited, I’m excited for what’s in front of us and again, to me, I look at this as a window of time with our kids. But just to extrapolate that out further, like we have a window of time, which is our life. And again, to kind of bring it back to life planning, it’s really important that we’re taking full advantage of that and not necessarily leaving anything on the table.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, one of the things we’re blessed with here in Ohio, Tim, shout out to the Buckeye State, is just some awesome state parks. So you know, trips locally and I know you’ve got a sabbatical coming up here. So one of the benefits we offer for the team at YFP is when you get to the five-year mark, we’ve got a month off and some funds to take a trip with the idea that we’re supporting the things that are central to the life plan. So pressure’s on, Tim, to be planning that, that sabbatical when it comes to the motorhome. Great stuff, Tim. Appreciate your willingness to share the story. And again, for those that are hearing this and interested in taking that next step with the financial plan, especially considering some of the dreams and goals that you have for you individually or for you and your family, love the opportunity to talk about the services at YFP Planning. You can learn more and schedule a free discovery call at YFPPlanning.com.

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YFP 181: How YFP is Different Than Most Financial Planning Firms

Posted on December 10, 2020November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

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How YFP is Different Than Most Financial Planning Firms

Tim Baker, YFP co-founder and Director of Financial Planning, talks about his journey becoming a financial planner. He discusses why all financial planning is not created equal, how and why YFP Planning services differ from traditional firms, and the importance of fee-only, fiduciary, and comprehensive distinctions.

Summary

Tim Baker, CFP®, joins Tim Ulbrich on the show to dig into how YFP Planning was born and how and why it is different from many traditional financial planning firms.

After working for a traditional firm himself, Tim realized that there were a lot of gaps that he wanted to fill in supporting people on their financial planning journey. Tim decided to launch his own firm and began working with pharmacists from the start. After meeting Tim Ulbrich, Tim Baker joined the YFP team and merged his financial planning firm with YFP. Now YFP offers comprehensive, fee-only financial planning for pharmacists.

Tim breaks down several reasons why YFP Planning is so different from traditional firms. To start, YFP CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNERS™ carry a CFP® designation. He explains that the barrier to enter the financial planning world is fairly easy and many people pass as financial planners without much education or experience. However, having a CFP® designation means that the YFP Planning team went through more rigorous training and testing and had to lock in between 4,000 to 6,000 hours of experience.

Tim shares that YFP Planning offers comprehensive financial planning. Many financial planners only focus on life or disability insurance or investments, however YFP Planning supports every part of your life that carries a dollar sign. YFP Planning offers support, guidance, and financial planning in the following areas: debt management, savings, insurance, investments, tax planning and filing, retirement, estate planning, budgeting, student loans, open enrollment navigation, credit, education planning, FIRE, real estate investing, and buying a home, among others.

Lastly, YFP Planning offers fee-only financial planning. This means that clients are paying for advice, not for the sale of a product like most traditional firms. In addition, YFP Planning follows the fiduciary standard. By law, YFP CFPs® are bound to act in your best interest.

If you’re ready to take stock on where you are and where you want to go in 2021 and create a financial plan to support your life plan, book a free discovery call with YFP Planning today.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker, excited to have you back on the mic. How’s everything going?

Tim Baker: Things are going well, yeah. Looking to turn the page here on 2020 fairly soon. So good to be meeting with you and Tim and our crew to figure out what YFP looks like in 2021, get a plan in place. So been a tough year but excited to look forward, look ahead and what’s to come for our team here in the future.

Tim Ulbrich: Man, I’m with you. It’s been a tough year. Looks like the first half of the year may be tough as well. But hopeful that we’re going to turn the corner here with the pandemic. Obviously we know many of our listeners, community has been impacted by that. And hopefully our community who’s been on the frontlines is going to get a little bit of a break here and some relief and hopefully get some time to refresh. I know we’ve talked with many pharmacists that I think are probably feeling burned out given the pressures, the circumstances, trying to manage work, trying to manage home, but we’re thinking of you all often, appreciate what you guys do, and yeah, we’re excited about 2021, lots of exciting things planned for YFP. And here, today, wanted to talk a little bit more knowing that we have grown a lot in the last few years, knowing that we obviously have many of our community members that are aware of what we do at YFP Planning, some that are not, and knowing that one of the things I find myself often talking about when I speak on the topic of personal finance is hey, when you’re looking for a financial planner, it’s really important not all financial planners and financial planning services are created equal. And it’s important to understand what you’re looking for, what’s a good fit, what’s not a good fit. And so we wanted to spend some time here today talking about why we do what we do, what some of the terms mean around fee-only comprehensive financial planning, how we got to this point, and ultimately what’s included in the types of planning that we do. So we’re going to do that. But Tim, before we dig into that, I think it was all the way back maybe Episode 015, somewhere around there, we had you on to chronicle your career path, your journey into financial planning. But it’s been awhile. And I don’t want to assume that the listener here in 2020 necessarily listened to Episode 015, so take us back into your trajectory into financial planning, all the way back to obviously your time at West Point, what you did from there, and then how you got into the work that you’re doing now and offering fee-only comprehensive financial planning to pharmacists.

Tim Baker: Oh man, I feel like it’s been awhile since I kind of told this story. So I’ll try to dust it off a bit. I feel like now it’s more about like the team that we’ve assembled and everything.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: But yeah. I took a very kind of a different route to becoming a financial planner. I — like to your point, Tim, out of high school, you know, I was pretty set on the United States military academy at West Point. And my trajectory for my career I thought would be very much intertwined with service, military service. So I worked my tail off to get into the academy. The world changed very — very quickly when I was there my freshman year, I think my first day at West Point was July 2, 2001. And obviously, a couple months later, you know, 9/11 happened and really changed the tone of what our job was and why we were there. So you know, I graduated four years later with a degree in international relations, you know, again, thinking that my career would follow more of a service track and commissioned as a Second Lieutenant and as an Armor Platoon leader, so tanks. But I quickly found out that, you know, sometimes you have a plan and life happens, you get punched in the face, and that plan goes out the window. So unfortunately, I was involved in a training accident that kind of derailed my military career, and I medically was separated from service. And I found myself a civilian, not really knowing what I wanted to do and really lost for a bit. So I backpacked Europe for about four months, saw 20-some odd countries and came back and started a career in material management, actually in Columbus, Ohio, where we recently moved back to. So my job was to basically move — manage the department that moved boxes from A to B for a big retailer here in Columbus. So I did that for a span of years and then moved out to southern California to work for a construction company kind of doing the same type of stuff of moving materials from A to B. And I would say it was around this time that I kind of had a — kind of a quarter-life crisis. I liked my job, but I felt like it didn’t like me. I was working way too many hours for a six-figure income, which was great. I didn’t really necessarily get a warm and fuzzy of what I was doing from a day-in and day-out. And you know, I had a relationship that kind of ended at that time and I was just not living the best version of myself. So I took some time off. I took probably about 9-10 months off to kind of figure out what I wanted to do. And I kind of came to this epiphany, kind of from some of the input from two different family members that said, “Hey, we think that you’d be actually really good as a financial planner.” And I didn’t really know anything about it. You know, finance had always interested me, but I decided to pursue that path and I moved from southern California back to the East Coast to work with a solo practitioner in Baltimore, Maryland, who was actually a Naval Academy grad, and basically started at the very bottom of the ladder. And I was more or less a glorified assistant and took probably a third of the pay of what I was making previously to really kind of introduce — or reinvent myself and really get into this profession of financial planning.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, I’m grateful — and I mean this genuinely — as my own financial planner but also knowing the impact you have had on the pharmacy community that you found this career pathway. I mean, I think it’s safe to say — and we’ll talk more about the team and the services that this transition and quarter-life crisis, whatever you want to call it, one of the results has been really putting a positive dent on helping pharmacists in managing their personal finances, obviously debt is one part of that, debt management, student loans, but also the rest of the financial plan, like we talk about often on the show. And I genuinely think the work that you did and the work that you continue to do has had an incredible impact, not only on our community but on others as well. So you’re working with a solo practitioner, and you decide to make a jump to start your own firm. So why, why, why take on that risk? Why take on that journey? And what was enticing about going down that path?

Tim Baker: Yeah. So again, not really knowing what I was getting into — and I think sometimes I talk to pharmacists, and they say the same thing when they go to school. I think the big difference is the debt that’s often taken on, you know, with becoming a pharmacist, which is a good and a bad thing from a barrier to entry perspective. So I completely just shifted and pivoted from what I was doing from a professional standpoint. And you know, to kind of back up to that, when I was trying to reinvent myself, my resume was written in a way that like that I just kept going back to material management. So I really need to do something bold, and it actually came down to networking. I know, Tim, you talked about that, to kind of get into that firm and really be super vulnerable to say, like, I don’t know anything. Like when I got into material management, I used to say like I didn’t really know what a forklift was. When I got into financial services, like the only thing that I really knew about financial planning was you would hire a person to help you, and I knew that credit card debt was bad and investments were good and buy a house, that was a good investment, which is what my parents had said. That might not necessarily be true. So I get into this world, and I’m working with a solo practitioner, and it’s very much kind of like you work with people who have hundreds of thousands of dollars and you’re working with them to help them with insurance and their investments and maybe give them a little bit of tax advice and things like that. And I quickly realized that me as a 20-something-year-old, I didn’t resonate — I wasn’t really resonating with the people that I was working with. You know, I was supporting the guy who was working with a lot of like pre-retirees and things like that. And then I quickly realized that there’s a lot of gaps.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Tim Baker: So after I started the process of getting my licensing and working on my CFP and getting that in place and getting everything that I needed to actually do the job, I started working with pharmacists fairly early on after that because I had friends — most of my friends in Baltimore were pharmacists, one of the guys I went to West Point with, one of my best friends, married a pharmacist. They were very much champions of me and what I was trying to do. And I found with pharmacists and that type of client that most financial planners will say, “Well, you have $150,000-200,000 in debt. I can’t help you. Come back to me when you have a couple hundred thousand dollars in your investments, and we’ll go from there.” Or they would say, “We can help you. We’ll invest your IRA, we’ll sell you a crappy insurance product. And then we’ll talk to you once every three or four years.” And when I looked a the student loans, in particular, I’m like, you know, and you’re not getting supportive advice, like that’s not good. You know, most financial planners — I think it’s gotten a lot better — but most financial planners, at least at that time, would say, “Oh, don’t worry about the loans. They’ll figure themselves out. And invest or buy this product.” And that’s not good advice. We say with pharmacist-type debt, it’s not hyperbole to say it’s a six-figure decision on which way you go. And I think you and Church would attest that like if you would have went a different path for your loans, maybe like a forgiveness route, it would have been a different result. So I was starting to see this gap in the market, and you know, a lot of it was like, “Hey, find your niche.” And I kind of had stumbled into this niche already of working with pharmacists. And it just steamrolled from there. So I stumbled upon a group called XY Planning Network, who was a group of fee-only CFPs, Certified Financial Planners, that really focused on Gen X and Gen Y, who are typically those individuals that maybe have a lot of debt, maybe decent incomes, but are not being serviced the financial planning sector. So that was really the main drivers as I was thinking like, hey, like I think I can do this better, more efficiently, more targeted to who I was serving anyway. And that’s what I decided to do.

Tim Ulbrich: So you started the firm Script Financial.

Tim Baker: Yep.

Tim Ulbrich: And I actually have in my hand right now as we’re recording right now my Script Financial pen, which is just an awesome, awesome piece of history. So you started Script Financial, and then you meet this other chump named Tim who knew this other chump named Tim that was also talking personal finance.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: And the paths started to align, right?

Tim Baker: Yeah. So I think one of the other reasons that I decided to go out on my own — and it wasn’t necessarily feasible in the model that I was in — was I wasn’t fee-only in that first, in that solo practitioner. And I think that’s a good distinction to make. So what I often tell a prospective client today when I talk to them, I’m like, for me, like whether you work with us or not, you know, that’s obviously a decision you need to make. But to me, table stakes are are you a Certified Financial Planner? So unlike a PharmD, a JD, an MD, you know, those are professions where there’s an education requirement, experience requirement, an ethics requirement. To become a financial planner, there’s none of that. You take what’s called the Series 65, you study for 8-12 weeks, and then you take a test, you know, and you can do exactly what I do or what we do today. So there’s often a lot of sales people that parade as financial advisors but that are really just hawking crappy products, to be honest. So sometimes people get upset with me, but it’s like thinking about like a real estate agent. Like the barrier to entry to become a real estate agent is really low. Now, to be a good real estate agent, you have experience and all those — good ethics and things like that. But the CFP designation is something that’s really, really important. And then the other thing that’s kind of table stakes is really if you’re fee-only. So this is really confusing, and it actually confused me because I was probably about a year, year and a half into my career as a financial planner before I even knew what fee-only was. And fee-only is where you basically separate the sale of a product like an insurance policy or an investment with advice. So anytime that you have an overlap between the sale of product and advice, there’s a conflict of interest because I would say, “Hey, Tim, you’re my client. If you buy this insurance product, it’s better for me in terms of commission, maybe not so great for you.” And the same thing with the investments. So in the fee-only world, you are — we’re what’s called “product agnostic.” So if I say, “Hey, buy this life insurance policy,” it’s not because I’m enriching myself anymore. It’s because that’s what I believe is a tool to better protect yourself and your family. So I kind of use the medical analogy. It’s why physicians are not supposed to get kickbacks from pharmaceutical companies because it taints their ability to prescribe medications without strings. The difference in our profession, you know, “profession,” is not only is it legal in our profession, it’s prevalent. So there’s something like 95% of advisors out there can sell you a product that enriches themself, i.e., commissions or kickbacks, that a lot of times the advisor doesn’t know. So that was a main catalyst for me to move. I wanted to very much niche down. Most financial planners, they want to be everything to everyone. That’s not our game. So we are very niche to the pharmacy profession and really wanted to provide services that kind of ease those pains that they were having. And then the other thing is to put myself out as fee-only or as a fiduciary, meaning that our — we are legally bound to act in the client’s best interest, which most people, you know, if you say, “Hey, your advisor can put their own interests ahead of yours,” they would be surprised by that. But that’s actually the case. So yeah, once I made that leap, I started to network and to figure out how to get myself out there. I came across Your Financial Pharmacist on Twitter, and you know, I always say like, “Who’s this imposter Tim talking about personal finance and pharmacy?” And I read your stuff, and I really liked it. And it resonated, what you were saying resonated with a lot of the conversations that I was having with pharmacists at the time. And you know, I reached out to you, and we decided to meet in Bob Evans in Ohio, and I think our first collaboration was the podcast, which now has almost 500,000 downloads, I think is where we’re at right now.

Tim Ulbrich: So fun story for our listeners about the podcast. I was reflecting on this recently — and then we’ll get to the meat of what we’re actually talking about here — is we at one point, Tim — I remember it vividly. I was on vacation with my family, we were down in Hilton Head, we were actually working on “Seven Figure,” wrapping it up, and we’re like, man, what should we call the podcast? Like should it be, you know, like — I was thinking of like Mike and Mike on ESPN, which are no longer a thing, right?

Tim Baker: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: I was thinking about other names. And then, I mean, clear as day, you’re like, “Maybe we should call it the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast.” Ahhh.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: So sometimes, it just hits you in the face, and you know, you don’t know it. But it was a good time as we were getting that started.

Tim Baker: Yes, yes.

Tim Ulbrich: So we’re going to come back, I want to come back and break down a little bit further in a moment fee-only, fiduciary, comprehensive, and compare some of the terms: fee-only versus fee-based, fiduciary suitability, talk more about why that’s important. But take us for a moment down the path of — so you start Script Financial, we merge efforts at YFP, obviously we start the company, you’re kind of doing — not kind of — you are doing all of the planning. Obviously now it’s a team that really believes in what we’re doing and really embodies obviously what you have built and the beliefs that we have around planning. So what’s your current role at YFP? What’s the YFP Planning team look like? And what can folks expect from that team?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so my role at YFP today is a bit different than when we started. My role is Director of Financial Planning. It’s really more about kind of managing the RIA or the Registered Investment Arm, advisor arm of the business. So I manage the team that basically brings financial plans to the pharmacists that we work with all over the country. And I think we’re in like 38 states now. So it’s really managing that team and our process and making sure that we are delivering plans consistently and kind of with — in line with our belief system. It’s the business development, so like the prospect meetings. It’s the IT stuff, the HR stuff, the compliance stuff. You know, we’re now overseen by the SEC, which is good but also compliance can be a bit of a tough thing to crack. So yeah, my day-to-day is more, you know, managerial now and the great team that we’ve assembled, we now have two lead planners, Robert Lopez and Kelly Redy-Heffner, who basically are in Arizona and Pennsylvania, respectively. And these are the individuals that really quarterback the financial plans for our clients. And they have the help of a support system, you know, Paul is our Director of Tax, Kim, Tom and Heather are really support to them. And really my vision with financial planning is that it takes a village. Oftentimes, financial planners, they’ll have themselves and maybe another person in support. We kind of employ the diamond team model that is the group that supports the client’s effort. So that’s kind of the makeup of our team. And I’m really excited about the team that we have. I look at across — and obviously, we’re pharmacy-owned, which is very unique. But we have CFPs that are both married to healthcare professionals — Kelly’s married to a physician, and Robert, I think his wife Shirley is a psychologist — and they’ve worked in their own firms dedicated to helping healthcare professionals. We have an MBA, we have a CFP-in-training, we have an IRS-enrolled agent. So I really like the team that we have, and I think it’s imperative that the team is in place to really support the efforts of delivering the financial plans. And like I said, this is — I think, Tim, you struck a chord with talking about your experience and your initial blog posts, you know, five years ago, with Your Financial Pharmacist. And we’re seeing that year-in and year-out as more and more pharmacists raise their hand and really are excited about putting their financial plan in place and improving kind of where they’re at currently from a finance perspective.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And a shout out to the team, they have done incredible work and I think have been so integral to our vision of helping as many pharmacists as we possibly can on their path towards achieving financial freedom. And as I mentioned, Tim, I want to come back to digging a little bit deeper into comprehensive, fee-only, fiduciary. And I really like what you said, whether somebody ends up working with us or not, I think it’s really important that they understand what they should be looking for that will point them in the direction of the services that meet their needs and that have their best interests in mind. And I can attest to what you said earlier about it may catch many people off guard when they hear that about the variety of these services but also the realization that most legally don’t have to act in the best interests of the client and may be charging for services in a way that may not align with their interests or needs. And I know for me as a pharmacist when I first started that work and did some of the exploration into the types of services, that was certainly eye-opening for me coming from a training where it is drilled into us over and over and over again that your job as a pharmacist is you need to obviously take care of the patient, but you need to be acting in their best interests at all times. So when you say comprehensive, what does that look like? Paint the picture of comprehensive financial planning.

Tim Baker: Yeah. So when you go to school to become a CFP, which I guess there’s schools now. I feel like that wasn’t there even when I was doing it. But they have a curriculum that kind of follows really I think the six main components. It’s kind of your fundamentals, which you think about like debt management and savings, insurance, investment, tax, retirement, estate planning. And a lot of people, you know, the last one there is estate planning. What is that? So you know, just to break those down, again, when we talk to prospective clients, the things that we talk about for us, we go a little bit further. Like we look at like banking, like how you bank, your cash flow and budgeting. Most financial planners kind of provide kind of ongoing cash flow and budget support, they’ll say, “Hey, you’re a good saver or you’re not,” and that’s it. We provide — because it’s behavioral. And I think a lot of pharmacists were saying, like, “Hey, I just want to be efficient with this resource, this income that I have.” The big piece and the fundamentals are the student loan analysis, which a lot of financial planners, you know, there’s a stat there that says 70% of financial planners don’t advise on student loans. Obviously with working with pharmacists, that’s huge. And then really a savings plan. You know, most financial planners will say, “Hey, just put that in your emergency fund.” And I’m like, man, I just want more. There needs to be more than just that. So we take it a step further. We really try to line up in a savings plan what we’re actually trying to achieve with the dollars that we’re setting aside. But insurance is typically your life, your disability, your professional liability if you’re a pharmacist. We do a lot more I think with like employer-provided benefits, so we do like a lot of open enrollment optimization meetings, so hey, Tim, it’s open enrollment, it ends this month, like what do I do? And we just log on — because that’s a big part of your compensation package. Investments, so we manage the client’s investments both at their job, so like 401k’s and 403b’s. Most financial planners don’t do that. So we can actually do that for you. And also, at our custodian, we do that at TD Ameritrade, so IRAs, Roth IRAs, you know, kind of the back door conversions, that type of thing. The big thing that I think that — I think a lot of financial advisors will do — is kind of like a nest egg calculation, are you on track or off track? I feel like most advisors will say, “Hey, you need this amount of money,” and then that’s it. We kind of like zero it in on like you’re either on track or you’re off. So we do the nest egg calculation and we dial that back. Another big differentiator is that we do taxes. Most financial planners don’t. They’ll say, “Hey, work with this accountant.” And in my experience, that’s what we said in my last firm, there was never really any cross-planning between the accountant that we are sending them to and their investments or anything that they had going on tax-wise, which I think is a major misstep. And I think the other reason that we do taxes now, Tim, is that most financial planners don’t understand student loans and kind of the tax ramifications to student loans. And by proxy, neither do accountants. So I got tired of sending people elsewhere to do their taxes and then completely mess up the benefits of what we’re trying to do from a student loan perspective by not aligning the tax strategy. So to me, keeping that all in house. And then finally, the estate plan, do we have the proper wills, power of attorneys and things like that? So that’s where most planners begin and end. And when we say comprehensive, we mean comprehensive. We go through credit, so credit score, credit report, especially if we’re leading up to a big purchase like a home purchase. Because we work with so many — I mean, we work with people of all ages, 50s, 60s, 70s, even 20s and 30s — but because a lot of our, initially our clients we’re in their 20s and 30s, a home purchase was a big thing that they hadn’t figured out. And when I bought my first home right before the housing market crashed, I didn’t know what a home inspection was or what an appraisal was, what I should be spending, how to get financing, where to find a good agent. So we kind of do that from A to Z, you know, whether it’s using our concierge with Nate Hedrick, going through the home purchase worksheet of what they should be spending and what their must-haves and nice-to-haves are, helping with financing. It’s such a big thing that most financial planners are going to be working with people in their 50s and 60s that they’ve run that race already. So I kept seeing like mistakes on the home purchase, and I think I’ve made them, Tim, you’ve made them. And I’m like, there’s got to be a better mousetrap here that we can build. And I think that we’ve done that. Salary negotiation is another thing. I kept hearing like, “Ah, I just accepted a job,” and I’m like, “Well, did you negotiate at all?” “No, not really. I was happy to have the job.” And I’m like, “Yeah, I’m with you.” But I feel like — and we’ve had some clients on recently that have experienced that and how to negotiate and things like that, so like, I think that that’s another thing to be able to advocate for yourself. Real estate investing is another one. Most financial planners are not going to encourage you to do that because a lot of financial planners are really incentivized by you investing traditionally in your IRA, 401k, etc., not something like real estate. But we feel as a team that is a viable way to build wealth, has lots of good tax — it’s not correlated, etc. Small businesses, we work with a lot of pharmacy entrepreneurs, and we’re expanding our services there. Education planning, so hey, you have kids, how do we tackle that, more people are interested in the FIRE, Financially Independent Retire Early. So that’s a completely different way to tackle the financial plan. And I think the thing that we do differently too is most financial planners, they’ll say, “Hey, here’s a 30-page document of what you need to do.” We don’t do that. So we’re very much education-focused of like, “Hey, this is kind of what you need to know,” enough to make you dangerous but not enough to bore you to death and then recommendations, really looking through the lens of how can we help you grow and protect income, which is the lifeblood of the financial plan, grow and protect net worth, which means increasing the asset efficiently and decreasing the liabilities efficiently. Most financial planners just care about hey, I got you a great return on your investments in terms of the IRA. But they could care less about the $20,000 in credit card debt or the $250,000 in student loans. And I think that’s a big misstep. So it’s income, it’s net worth, while keeping your goals in mind. And I think I put them in descending order of importance. So income is important, not as important as net worth, but not as important as your goals. And what I typically say is, the client is like, we might work together for 10, 20, 30 years, and at the beginning of our journey, we might say, “Hey, Tim, you need $5 million to retire.” And that’s typically where you look at me like I have 5 million heads because it’s such a big number and way in the future that we discount back to the present value. But let’s pretend that we do work together for decades and you have $10 million. That’s a great accomplishment, it’s a great thing, but if you’re miserable because you haven’t achieved or done the things that you wanted to do in life, what’s the point?

Tim Ulbrich: Amen.

Tim Baker: So to me, the hard part about financial planning — it’s not the technical aspect just like you need to be technical to be a pharmacist, that’s not really the hard part. The hard part is the human element. It’s really threading the needle between what — your present day self and your self that’s 30 years older, 40 years older, in the future. And I feel like if you’re not — if you don’t feel that push and pull, we’re probably doing something wrong. So that’s it, you know. It’s using all of these tools that are in front of us and trying to work with a client in the most efficient manner that is delivering a plan that is, you know, the best version of what a wealthy life is to them. And that’s what we try to achieve here every day.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and as you say and I think articulate so well, it’s not just about the 1s and the 0s in the bank account, right? We’ve got to be thinking about the goals, we’ve got to keep that front and center. It’s got to be the framework from which we make decisions. And I think a fee-only fiduciary model allows a planner to invest the time and attention to putting goals front and center, even if that does not necessarily mean all the time that you’re dumping more money into investments, it might mean paying down debt, it might mean philanthropic assets, it might mean real estate, it might mean — insert any other goal that might not have a direct tie to compensation in a fee-only model but is the best for that client, for their goals, for the plan. And I think that’s the beauty of comprehensive, right, is you say all the time is that when it comes to planning and YFP Planning, comprehensive, anything that has a dollar sign on it, you want the planner to be involved and engaged with the client because everything impacts one another when it comes to decisions that are being made.

Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s true. And I think like — and I’ll invoke a conversation that I recently had, actually before we started recording this. We had a client that signed on with us early this year, and we were kind of doing a review. And their net worth when they started with us was like -$328,000 I think it was. And this was in February is when we actually like, you know, did I think our get organized meeting. Today, so we’re talking 10 months later, their net worth is -$188,000, right around there. So that’s a net worth increase of about $140,000 in less than a year. And again, I will stipulate — we were talking about compliance — this isn’t necessarily indicative of all results, all client situations, but I look at that, and I’m like, man that is great progress. That’s really — you know, we got the debt buttoned up, the investments are humming, they’re doing a lot better job budgeting and savings, but there’s — for one of the people in the marriage, like the work situation is almost to the point of being unbearable. And that to me is what’s on fire, it’s nothing really anything that’s really tied into the financial plan, it’s the anguish that she’s feeling with kind of her day-in and day-out job. And I’m like, we have to figure this out immediately because it’s just not sustainable. So like the 1s and 0s, like impressive, but like, one of the things we talked about early this year is to potentially look for a pathway out of her current position. And we just haven’t done enough, and then obviously COVID happened, but to me, like they’re wealthier than they were in a lot of ways, but in a lot of ways, we’re still stagnant. And I think it’s kind of making sure that all of those important pieces and those goals that are out there we’re working towards and we’re being — the word that we always say is we’re being intentional to that. So you know, to me, I think that’s what it’s really about. And it’s going to be different for everybody, right? And life changes. I have a lot of people that look at their goals and then 12 months later, they laugh because they’re like, they were in such a different place. So to me, I mean, I think part of this is like why we are so comprehensive in a lot of ways is maybe it’s ego on my part. You know, I think the finances permeate everything.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Tim Baker: And I just — and for me, it’s like, alright, we would talk early on about salary negotiation. I’m like, I need to be a better resource to clients to help with that because you know, that should be something that pharmacists, our clients, are really putting themselves in a position to get the best deal that they can. Home purchase, I’m like, I really need to understand this from A to Z so when they make this biggest purchase of their life, they’re confident. And even like going into retirement, to talk about the other end of the spectrum, is I don’t think that financial advisors are really trained well to provide like a retirement paycheck and really figure that out. It’s all about accumulation in masses. But what happens when we then pivot into retirement? And not just the 1s and 0s and the mechanics of that, but also like what does a wealthy retirement look like? These are things that are I think a good financial planner is coaching and talking about to their clients on a continuous basis.

Tim Ulbrich: So I think the comprehensive nature, you know, as I’ve talked with many individuals, that resonates a lot with people, right? Because they understand that they’ve got multiple things going on. And I think with some background information, they can understand that the traditional industry may focus more on investments or insurance, but as you go down the list of the other topics, you gave the stat about student loans, not so much and certainly many others along the way, which we’ve mentioned here during this recording. So I think yes, I think many people will hear this and say, “Yes, comprehensive, comprehensive, comprehensive. I get it.” When it comes to fee-only, this is an area where I see people confused or perhaps sometimes get in trouble where they may work with maybe with an advisor that may advertise being fee-only but really come to find out that they’re fee-based. They’re not always in a fee-only situation. So tell us the distinction of that briefly between fee-only, fee-based, and why it’s so important. I know you’ve already mentioned, defined fee-only. But the fee-based specifically.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so when I was in my first firm and I was working with clients, you know, but when they do, typically for the planner or for the advisor, they kind of squirm in their seat a little bit because one, it’s not very transparent to the client. So like if someone were to say, “Hey, Tim, before you started Script Financial, how would you get paid?” or if a client would say, “How would you get paid?” I would say, “Pull up a chair because it’s going to take awhile for me to explain this to you. So in the fee-based model, what those advisors — and again, I don’t want to demonize, they’re good people — but again, like if I was a consumer, I would want to be in a position where I was treated as a fiduciary at all times or treated by a fiduciary at all times. So in the fee-based model, the previous model, if someone said, “Hey, how do you get compensated?” I would say, “Look, I could charge you hourly, an hourly rate like what an attorney does. I could sell you a mutual fund that pays me x% upfront plus a trail or a bigger upfront and no trail, so like an ongoing fee that basically takes away from the investment. I could charge you a percent of the assets that I’m managing, which is by and large what a lot of planners do. And even fee-only planners, that’s how they mainly do it. They’ll say, “Hey, you have $500,000, it’s 1%, it’s $5,000 a year.” I could charge you to sell you a life insurance policy, and typically those are the worst ones for you or better for me in terms of what they pay out. It could be an annuity. There’s just so many different ways to do it. It could be a flat fee. There’s so many different ways to do it, and it could be a combination of those too. So when I would work with like young pharmacists at first, I would be like, “Alright, well, I can charge you a flat fee for the financial plan, and then I’ll charge you x% of whatever I’m managing in terms of dollars, which is typically not a lot. And then I’ll charge you a commission to sell you this life insurance policy and this disability policy.” At the end of the day, it’s just so confusing to the consumer because they don’t even know what they’re being charged. And that’s why like — like when I talk to a lot of younger pharmacists, you know, I’ll say, like, “Who’s making the decision on who you’re going to hire as a financial planner?” And they’re like, “Well, it’s me, but I’ll talk to my parents about this.” And I’ll say, like, “Ask your parents what they pay their financial planner. They’re not going to know.” The first thing that my parents said to me when I decided to — after I was going through my quarter-life crisis and I’m like, I think I want to be a financial planner, they’re like, “Well, why would you do that? We have a financial planner, we don’t pay them anything.” And when we peeled back the onion, it was actually very, very significant of what they were paying. But it’s not an industry that’s known for being transparent. So in fee-only, you are not enhanced or enriched by any of the products that you’re selling. So if I sell you a life insurance product, I don’t get any commission for that. If I sell you a mutual fund or some type of investment, I don’t get any additional commission for that. So you’re paying for advice, not the sale of a product. And when I was in the other model, Tim, I would — you know, we would get taken out to lunch by mutual fund wholesalers that would show up in their fancy suits and take us out to an expensive lunch and show us these glossies of why their funds were so good. And they would say, “Hey, when your pharmacists bring money over, sell our funds,” wink, wink. So it’s almost like a drug rep almost — no offense to drug reps out there. But it’s almost like that type of relationship. And you kind of feel beholden to them, like, ugh, they took me out to a nice lunch. So it’s just kind of like icky. It was kind of like gross.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: So by separating the advice from like the tools and the products that you use, you’re not in bed with anybody, so to speak. So you’re really clear to advise on the client’s best interests. Now, that’s not to say that there aren’t conflicts of interest. There are. You know, if you’re in a AUM model, an Assets Under Management model, where you’re charging a percent of the assets that you’re managing, if a client has inherited $50,000 and they have $50,000 in debt or they could put $50,000 into their investments, from that perspective, you’re better off for them to — in terms of your compensation — for them to invest. So there are conflicts, even in the fee-only world, so it’s important to understand what those are. But in fee-only, it’s much, much less. And that’s important.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think that speaks to the importance of fiduciary as well and that they are obligated to act in your best interests, that situation being a good one. And kind of putting a bow around this, as you talked, Tim, the words that stand out to me are — as you’re evaluating a planner — is do they have the credentials? What’s the scope of the service they’re providing? And how are they deriving their fees? So obviously we talk here, we believe firmly in the CFP given its rigorous education requirements, given its hours of experience, the examination someone has to be able to pass, their competencies. So the credential is No. 1. Second would be the scope. We talked about the importance of comprehensive planning, making sure that they’re addressing all parts of the financial plan and aren’t incentivized to spend their time in one area more than the other. And then their fee, where are they deriving their fee? Where’s that fee coming from? Is it transparent? Do you understand it? And is it being done in a way that has your best interests in mind. And that’s what I always tell people, one of the things I’m most proud of of the service that we built — you really built — at YFP Planning is that the fee is the fee, right? The service is the service, the fee is the fee. It’s there, it’s on the table. We’ve got nothing to hide, and we obviously stand behind the quality of what we do in that service. So Tim, for our listeners that are hearing this episode saying, “You know what, I’ve been thinking about a planner for some time, I see the value, I heard about all of the things that are covered in that planning engagement, that planning relationship, and I’d love to learn a little bit more and figure out are the services offered by YFP Planning,” are they a good fit for the individual and what their considering with their own financial plan? What would be the best next step for them as they vet that decision further?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so you can go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com, there’s a big green button, two big green buttons that say “Book a Free Financial Planning Call,” so that would be either with myself or Tim Ulbrich, and we would see, again, if we would be a good fit. So that would be the best avenue. Like I said, a lot of people right now are thinking about man, this has been a tough year, I really want to get my stuff together as we transition into a new year. So it’s a busy time of year, but I think it’s kind of the best time to take stock of where you’re at and really where you want to go and have the financial plan, support that life plan that we talk about where it’s not just about the 1’s and 0’s. So YourFinancialPharmacist.com, click the button, “Book a Free Call,” and we’d be happy to see if we’re a good fit.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and we hope we’ll have a chance to talk with many of you here as we wrap up 2020, head into 2021, looking forward to setting those goals, setting that plan for the New Year. And as always, we appreciate you joining us on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. And if you haven’t already done so, we would love to have you leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to this show each and every week, which will help other pharmacy professionals find the work that we’re doing on the podcast. And we also would love to have you join us at the Your Financial Pharmacist Facebook group, a community of more than 7,000 pharmacy professionals all across the country that are committed to helping one another on their path towards achieving financial freedom. Thanks again for joining, and have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 177: New Book: Baker’s Dirty Dozen: Principles for Financial Independence

Posted on November 5, 2020November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

New Book: Baker’s Dirty Dozen: Principles for Financial Independence

Joe Baker, author of the newly released book Baker’s Dirty Dozen: Principles for Financial Independence, joins Tim Ulbrich on the show. Joe talks about several of the principles outlined in the book, why he wrote the book and what he hopes the reader will glean from applying its principles.

About Today’s Guest

Joe Baker is an Adjunct Assistant Professor at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences College of Pharmacy where he has taught personal finance for over twenty years, as well as an adjunct instructor at Harding University College of Pharmacy. He holds a Bachelor of Business Administration from Southern Arkansas University and a Masters of Business Administration from the University of Central Arkansas. Joe retired early in 2019 from Pharmacists Mutual Company where he provided insurance and financial services to Arkansas pharmacists for twenty-eight years. Joe has spoken to both academic and corporate groups across the country promoting financial literacy.

In an effort to give back to his community, he has endowed a scholarship fund for students graduating from his hometown of Emerson, Arkansas.

Joe and his wife, Brenda, live in Little Rock, Arkansas.

Summary

Joe Baker has been teaching personal finance to pharmacists for over 20 years as an Adjunct Assistant Professor at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences College of Pharmacy as well as an adjunct instructor at Harding University College of Pharmacy. Tim Ulbrich approached Joe and asked if he’d be interested in writing a book and Joe realized there were a lot of lessons in personal finance he could share. With the help of his daughter Lindsey, Joe wrote over 250 pages of the key principles he teaches and has learned along his journey of personal finances. This book is composed of practical experience and contributions and stories from over 40 people.

In this episode, Joe walks through several of the principles he has written about like finding a path that will fulfill you, getting and staying out of debt, setting up a 401(k) and Roth IRA, finding the right house and picking the right mortgage, protecting your assets and making a difference in your community.

Through November 7th, you can use the coupon code BAKER at www.bakersdirtydozen.com for 15% off your order of the book.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Joe, welcome back to the show.

Joe Baker: Well, thank you, Tim, for the invite.

Tim Ulbrich: Excited to have you. Huge accomplishment as you release your new book, and we’re going to dig in and talk about several aspects of that book, really a comprehensive guide not only for pharmacy professionals but really just a guide overall about how to live a financially well life and how to do it with intention. And we had you on the show back on Episode 082 with Blake Johnson as he shared his debt-free journey. And during that show, Blake articulated how important your guidance was, your mentorship and your role as a teacher in terms of how important that was in the journey for he and his wife to becoming debt-free. And so now we get to talk about how you have compiled all of that wisdom that Blake and other students who have been blessed with your guidance and teachings often speak of as you release your new book, “Baker’s Dirty Dozen: Principles for Financial Independence.” So Joe, first of all, congratulations. I know a lot of sweat, a lot of time went into putting together this book. And here we are, finally getting ready to release it. So congrats.

Joe Baker: Yes, well thank you for talking me into it. I guess I say thank you.

Tim Ulbrich: So I have to ask, now that you’re on the back end of this and we finally get this into the hands of folks and many, many months of writing and editing went into this, and I told you very early on, I said, “Hey, Joe, at some point, this is going to become fun.” And you kept saying, “When is that? When is that?” So as you look now backwards, tell us about the process. What was it like? What type of time was involved? And would you do it again?

Joe Baker: Would I do it again? Yes, I would do it again. But I’d have open eyes this time. I had been thinking about writing a book for years. Former students and current students would say, “Why don’t you put this down on paper and let us have it in a book?” And I didn’t really think much about it until you mentioned — I think it was in May of last year, 2019 — you mentioned and said, “Hey, why don’t you write a book and we will help you promote it?” Then that got the bug started and I started thinking about it and said, you know, I think I can come up with some things. And on August the 15, I started the book. And coincidentally, I started writing the book for something to do in the hospital room. My wife was having some surgeries. And quite frankly, I wrote most of the book in the hospital room. Now, she’s fine today and everything went well. But you know, it was pretty tough having to write a book when someone’s over there moaning in pain. I’d have to call a nurse and say, “Hey, give us some pain pills in here. I’m trying to write my first book.” They weren’t too sympathetic, nor was my wife. But most of it was written, I mean, during the hospital stay. And what’s interesting — I tell people this story — is I thought I was pretty much finished at Christmas. And my daughter, who is just very astute on editing and all that sort of thing, she said, “Well, Dad, why don’t you let me read it and edit it?” I said, “OK. Go ahead.” Well, she started into editing the book, and lo and behold, she would say, “Dad, I don’t understand.” I said, “Lindsey, you’ve got to understand, I wrote this for millennials.” And she said, “Well, I don’t understand it.” So we went almost paragraph by paragraph throughout the book and rewrote it to where she could understand it as a liberal arts major and put in some stories. It was so much involved, involvement for her that I just felt obliged to name her a coauthor because she did, she made it sound so much better. I shouldn’t say this, but one day I was reading through it for the thousandth time, and I said, “You know, I know I’m getting old. But I don’t remember writing this part.” And she said, “Oh yeah, you did not. I put all that in.” I said, “OK.” There is a lot of her in this book, and I’m very proud of what she’s done.

Tim Ulbrich: And shoutout to Lindsey. I appreciated her input along the way. She did a fantastic job. I feel like it’s — as you know, Joe, as I know, especially as you’ve taught on this much longer than I have, it’s very different teaching on this and then putting that into writing in a way that is engaging, that is accessible, that is action-oriented. And I think it takes more effort, but one of the exciting things is this will live on, and it’s going to have an impact on many, many people. And just so folks understand the effort, when you talked about going paragraph by paragraph, we’re talking about paragraph by paragraph of over 250 pages that are in this book. And I think you did an awesome job. One of the first things I said to you after I read it was, “Wow, this is incredibly engaging because of the stories that you’ve included, because of the tone of writing, because of how action-oriented it is.” And you had over 40 people that helped contribute to the book. And I say that as we get ready to jump into talking about some of the key principles because I think this is a topic where multiple perspectives can be helpful to reinforce various points. And I love how you brought in those perspectives and obviously Lindsey put her own stamp on the book as well. So just overall, incredible job. And we’ve got — I think you have photo evidence of some of that hard work writing. I remember you sent me a text at one point with a photo when you were in the hospital writing. And so we’ve got photo evidence of that. So again, congratulations.

Joe Baker: Well thank you. Can I add another story to this? And it kind of goes to one of the reasons I was writing the book is we were playing cards this summer — and by the way, I had my other daughter, Brooke, and her husband, Gabe Crooks, to edit the book. And they did a good job. They weren’t as in depth as Lindsey, but they did do that. We were playing cards, and Gabe and my daughter happened to be there, and we had a big group there playing cards at the table, and one of the card members, one of our friends who is an attorney, says, “Well I couldn’t tell you the difference between an IRA and a Roth IRA.” And all of a sudden, to my right, Gabe, my son-in-law, another liberal arts major, he started explaining the difference, how it’s the taxation, you know, you tax up front and all of that, went into great detail. And I turned to him and I said, “How’d you know that?” He said, “By editing your book.”

Tim Ulbrich: There you go.

Joe Baker: And he’s even starting investing more and more from that. So it seems to have worked.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And I think you know from teaching this for over 20 years as we’ve had several of your former students on this podcast, you know, some people will read this book and go line-by-line and take away multiple things that they’ll apply. Others may take one thing or they’ll jump in and out as their financial life and plan progresses. But I am confident, I know I took many things away, and I’m confident the readers will do the same. Joe, remind our listeners — maybe they didn’t hear you on Episode 082 way back when — a little bit of your career path and then also some of the work that you’ve done over the past 20 years in teaching personal finance. I think it’s a good segway into why you even wrote this book in the first place.

Joe Baker: Well, in my adult life, I’ve worked for 28 years with Pharmacists Mutual companies, so I’m very familiar with pharmacists and pharmacy students. And I spent a lot of time in the college of pharmacy. And in the late ‘90s, I was talking to the assistant dean and the dean about a personal finance course. And one thing led to another, and we started in the fall of ‘99 at the University of Arkansas College of Pharmacy, a two-hour elective for P3s. And I’m going to brag not because of me but because of the content, it is the most popular elective at the university. So it’s been going on for over 21 years. And it’s just — it’s been great. I look forward to it. Pharmacy students are like sponges, they just absorb it all. And we just — we have a good time. We tell a lot of stories. And I learn from them as well. So it’s a two-way street.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And I have been teaching a personal finance elective for I think 4 or 5 years, not 20+ years. But one of the things I often think of is, I wish I would have had this. And I know I hear that from others as well. So lucky to have the students that have been able to take your course, that they have access to that information. And Joe, I wanted to ask, you know, we throw around the term, “financial independence,” “financial freedom,” all the time. And since it’s in the subtitle of your book, “Principles for financial independence,” I want our listeners to hear from you, what does that term mean to you? And why is that concept of financial independence so important?

Joe Baker: Well financial independence to me means that if I want to pick up roots, move to another place, I can. I’m not obliged to stay at the same job that I’m in. It just frees you up to do so many things. And I know that money can’t buy happiness, but I have been without money, and that has made it very unhappy. It’s nice to know that if the refrigerator breaks down, the wash machine, or if you want to go on a trip, that you don’t really have to think that much about the monetary. I know I always try to get a good deal, but having the financial independence to do those things and to buy things that you need, it really makes a big difference. It takes the stress out of marriage and life.

Tim Ulbrich: One of the things too, Joe, that really resonates with me as I’ve gotten to know you over the past couple years and obviously got to be alongside of you in this journey, I often tell people as I’m describing this book, is it really is just spewing out with wisdom. And I mean that genuinely.

Joe Baker: Thank you.

Tim Ulbrich: Because I feel like your life experience really comes through in addition to what you have found as effective ways to teach these principles such that they’re easy to understand and they’re action-oriented. So you mention in the beginning of the book, you chronicle your timeline, 30 years old, you got married having nothing but some debt. I think that’s a story that I can resonate, our listeners can resonate. And then if we fast forward, 59 years old, your liquid net worth percentile increases from the top 8% to the top 4% in the U.S. And you mention it took 52 years to get to 8%, the top 8%, and only seven more years to get to the top 4%. And one of the things you mention there is that the significance here was the result of having no debt. So what else as you look back on this journey going from really a net worth of $0 or negative to obviously being in such a good financial position and being financially independent in addition to no debt and having that philosophy around debt. What else has been the secrets to your success?

Joe Baker: Well, I’ll go back even further. You know, it’s a really remarkable journey considering I grew up in a small rural area in south Arkansas near the Louisiana state line. We did not have an indoor toilet until I was 9 years old. And I always, when I’m mentoring students, I say, “Listen. If I can achieve what I have coming from not having an indoor toilet, you can achieve as well.” But fast forward to age 30, you’re right. I had debt. I did have a TV and a VCR and a bed without a headboard. So I did have some assets. But the fortunate turn in my life was I married a high school math teacher. And even though I had a business background, she came in and showed me time value of money and all of the other numbers. And I said, “Wow.” So she whipped me up in financial shape, and I knew she was the one when we were having a get-together at her condo. I think this was the second town we were together. And we had some people over, and someone picked up a paper towel roll, used the second to last paper towel and proceeded to throw it away. And from a distance, I saw my wife — or future wife — go over to the trash, pull that cylinder out and pull off that last piece that was glued to it. And I said, “Wow. I’m going to marry her,” because I knew that she was tight with money. And of course, she makes me frugal today — or excuse me, she makes me look like a spendthrift. But anyway, that helped transform me. And we instilled those — a lot of the money principles with our children. Those stories and more are in the book.

Tim Ulbrich: And a shoutout to Brenna Baker for allowing you to write this book but also for giving you the foundation, I feel like, for what allowed you to learn this topic and of course in turn, teach others. And I love that line that you say in the book, “My biggest financial accomplishment came from marrying a high school math teacher.” So one of the lessons, which I couldn’t agree more with, is making sure there’s alignment with your partner, your significant other, your spouse, when you’re talking about personal finance. And the earlier you can get to that alignment, the better. And you do a great job of discussing that in the book and how important it is. Let’s jump into different areas of the book. And we’re just going to scratch the surface on these. But principle No. 1, so Baker’s Dirty Dozen Principle No. 1, is find a path that will fulfill you. And I think many may pick up the book and not expect that it would start here. So tell us about why you started here and why this concept of finding a fulfilling path is so important and relevant to the financial plan.

Joe Baker: Well, the book did not start off this way. The book was evolved that I had in mind was don’t do this, don’t do that. And then we had a epiphany — excuse me, I’m under the weather today, so you’ll have to forgive me a little bit — when you and I went to Washington, D.C., last year, it was September of 2019, last year, and we both attended a conference with a speaker. And he changed my whole focus on the book. You know, by not telling people what they need to buy or whatever, so I said, “Everyone needs to find their own path, financially, career-wise,” but the purpose of my book is to show you the opportunity cost of every economic decision you make and let you make that decision. I can’t pick a path for you. This is the path that you have to come up, and with the help of the book, maybe we’ll find a way to finance that path. And you can tell a little bit about the speaker who that was. We’ll give him credit.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, so I remember that. FinCon 2019, we were in D.C. You actually, Joe, if you remember, we had I think lunch or dinner, and you handed me in a manila envelope the first copy of the book. And we could go back and pull that out, and to your point, there was not this part included. We sat through this keynote, which was delivered by Ramit Sethi, which should sound familiar to our listeners, author of “I Will Teach You to be Rich.” Fantastic book. And that keynote, Joe, I remember it was one of those moments for me as well that I talk about often when I am speaking on this topic. He was talking about the concept of money dials and really identifying the things that matter most to you and finding a way to prioritize and fund those in the financial plan. And he had a great example, he called on the audience to do a couple of these, and then finding the areas that don’t mean a whole lot to you and to stop spending money on those things. And he connected that to the concept that we talk a lot about on the show about finding your financial why, having a purpose, having a vision for your financial plan, and by the way, as you mentioned and alluded to in the book, this path can and will look different for probably everyone reading and many of our listeners as well. And so finding that path, articulating that path, defining that path is so important because the financial plan should be a mechanism to help achieve that and make it reality. And for some, that means a very ‘traditional’ path of I’m going to work full-time and I’m going to do that for 30-40 years and I’m going to make a good income. Others may say, you know what? It’s early retirement, it’s staying home with the kids, it’s doing this or that, it’s working part-time, it’s having options, it’s having flexibility. And I think we’re seeing this more than ever of the importance of this. And I know it’s something that I feel personally as well. So I think it’s a great concept and I think it’s a great way to start off the book before you then get into the x’s and o’s of the financial plan. I remember we looked at each other and we’re like, alright, this is something different.

Joe Baker: Yes. I turned to you if you remember, I said, “I’ve just changed the direction of my book.”

Tim Ulbrich: Chapter One, here we go.

Joe Baker: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: I think you do a nice job too in this first principle that I know will resonate with our listeners, many of which in the field of pharmacy while this book goes beyond just one for pharmacists that I know many are struggling with what do I do if I’m in a position where I’m thinking about a career change or I want to do something different or “more meaningful,” how do I consider that? How do I weigh that? And how does that, again, connect back with the financial plan? And you do a nice job of covering that in principle No. 1. Now, you also talk about in the book this concept of avoiding financial minefields. And I think this gets into a little bit of the defensive side of the financial plan. My question here for you is in your experience teaching on this topic and working with many students, what are some of the common financial minefields that you see people stepping into?

Joe Baker: The biggest one right now are weddings. Weddings, I think the national average cost is $33,000, excluding the honeymoon. And that is just a big, big financial minefield. Now, obviously if the person reading the book is not paying for the wedding, that’s a different story. But even for parents paying for the wedding or grandparents or whoever, that should be looked at in the light of opportunity cost. And that’s what I break down in the book, showing if you use less money for a wedding and quite frankly, the stress of a wedding, wow. My daughter, well, Lindsey, she’s one that really wrote a lot about financial minefields of weddings. And she was just in a wedding, and she was — it was very similar to the movie “Bridesmaids” where everything was costing so much, spending so much time. So people have to be aware of that. And that chapter also includes on making the decision on whether you do that or not and plus other decisions, and it’s very similar to another chapter I have, principle No. 4 about understanding the concept of opportunity cost. Every decision we make there’s an opportunity cost whether it’s economic or non-economic. And I try to focus mostly on the economic choices. So weddings, one of the biggest minefields in a list I think a couple more. And I think that’s the same area where I go into budgeting to find out where you’re spending all your money. And you might be surprised at all the smaller minefields.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, you do. You do a good job of that, a stepwise approach for budgeting and trying to identify where those minefields may be. And obviously, you build upon that by talking extensively about student loans, a topic that is near and dear to us. And you also do a nice job in another chapter building on this concept of what I view as some of the defensive parts of the financial plan of the importance of protecting your assets. So of course, details about emergency funds, life insurance, disability insurance, liability insurance, insurance insurance. The list goes on and on, right?

Joe Baker: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: We all know how important insurance is. And what you need, what you don’t need. And I think really being able to navigate that, understand it, and as you can tell already listening to this interview, this book covers a wide array of topics. Now, one of the areas you spent the most time in the book on — and I think you did a great job — is on the investing side, the long-term savings and really breaking this down, I would say this is probably the biggest section of the book and I’m guessing the area that you’ve had through experience, identified where there’s the most questions or confusion. And so my question to you as you talk about the principle around investing and establishing an investing plan, you know, we talk about these terms all the time: stocks, bonds, mutual funds, 401k’s, 403b, Roth versions of those, IRAs, traditional and the Roth, HSA, REITs, alternative investments, cryptocurrency — you know, the opportunities and the options go on and on. And I think this can be very, very overwhelming. I know it’s overwhelming from personal experience in talking with many of our listeners. So how do you walk the reader through understanding and applying this information on the very important topic of investing in long-term savings?

Joe Baker: Well, first of all, the way I wrote the book is the way I teach class. I make a promise to the students. At the beginning of each semester, I say, “My goal is for you to never say while you’re sitting in my class, you will never say, ‘When am I ever going to use this?’” To me, that’s very important because you and I, we’ve all been there where we’re sitting and say, ‘When will I ever use that?’ So I keep that in mind, and I try to keep it as simple and really what it boils down to — you know, the three-asset class is cash, bonds and stocks. And if you’re only relegated to participating in an employer-sponsored plan, you’ll have 25-35 funds to choose from. So it’s not like the thousands of decisions you’ll have to make. And I place a couple recommendations. I like stock index funds as well as Warren Buffet, as you know, Berkshire Hathaway, that’s one of his favorites. Target date funds are good too. And I try to make it as simple as possible. And I also include several stories in there from contributors and where they have messed up. And you know, I talk a lot about individual stocks. You know, people at parties, they’ll talk about buying an individual company stock. And it is a good conversational piece, but frankly, might as well just do that for fun because your investments and your retirement should come from your employer-sponsored plan. But I do have a section in the book about picking individual stocks and how to do that. So if you want to do it for fun, that’s fine. But the bottom line is I try to keep it as simple as possible. And I do cover all the areas, and hopefully the reader will have the same experience as the students in my class and say, ‘Oh, yeah, I’ll use this one day.’

Tim Ulbrich: And I think you did a nice job, in my opinion, of keeping it simple, what you need to know, what you don’t need to know. And then through the appendices, also providing additional information for those that want to dig a little bit deeper on some of the topics or where there’s a stepwise approach to things like understanding some of the retirement accounts or opening up an IRA but that there’s a core foundation that you provide. And I think it reads, in my opinion, such that you can go cover-to-cover but then it should stay nearby because you’re going to come back to many of these decisions or need a refresher.

Joe Baker: For example, when you leave an employer, which you will. On average, I forgot the millennials, I think they have 7-9 jobs by the time they’re out. So what do you do with your 401k or 403b? I point that. You have four options. And that is in the book. So there’s some things there that are practical that you can look at and a step-by-step process for that.

Tim Ulbrich: And again, we’re just scratching the surface on topics that are also included that we haven’t discussed yet: how to make sure you and your significant other are on the same page, where to look for things that can appreciate and avoid things that depreciate, how to get out of debt, best practices for home buying, for the financial plan. Now Joe, when we package the book and said, ‘OK, is it the book? Are we going to offer some other resources?’ We ultimately landed on that we thought there would be value in essentially an investing mini-course series, videos, 6-7 videos that would take people more in depth into investing. Tell us about what folks can expect to get out of those investing videos — I know you’ve invested a lot of time and effort into doing those — and why we felt like that was an important supplement to the book.

Joe Baker: Well, a shoutout to P3 pharmacy student Jason Lam, he’s helped me with the audio and video portions. And he has pushed me pretty hard. We have done several videos that we’re — I think we’re pretty proud of. The blooper reel should be very interesting, by the way. But I just filmed it, most of the videos are out back by the pool. I’ve got a big whiteboard. I’m old school, I like to show it on the board. And quite frankly, it’s kind of a mini version of what I taught to the students in class. We’ll see how it turns out. We’ve also filmed a little skit for Halloween day, so hopefully people will check that out.

Tim Ulbrich: I’m looking forward to seeing the bloopers. So yeah, I mean, that investing video series is meant to I think present the information in a different way. Obviously they’ll have the text to read but also more of a stepwise approach. And for those that want to dig deeper on the investing topic, I think you’re going to find that video series to be helpful. And that comes with either the premium or premium pro package of the book, which is again available at BakersDirtyDozen.com. Joe, I want to read a couple of the testimonials. We’ve got a lot of people that had great things to say about this book. You know, one here that I want to read comes from Nicki Hilliard, UAMS College of Pharmacy professor, past president of the American Pharmacists Association. And she says, “Joe Baker is a good-natured, all around nice guy that is passionate about helping others. He has graciously taught personal finance at the College of Pharmacy for many years, and it is always the most requested elective course, not just because of the good information but how these lessons are delivered with great stories and insight into the big picture of what is important in life. He has put to paper his life experiences, stories and wisdom to help others lead a happier, less stressful and more fulfilling life through financial management. I highly suggest you put Joe Baker’s Dirty Dozen lessons to work in your own life.” This is just one, and as I read through others in preparation for this episode, there was a theme that I kept seeing over and over again of the influence that your teachings have had on people and how they have been able to directly apply that information to their personal financial plan. You know, one that stuck out to me, Blair Thielemeier mentioned how important the financial principles that you taught were for her in her journey of being able to start her business and the work that she has done and being able to have her own personal financial plan in order, several students commented specifically on actions they took in terms of budgeting, opening up retirement accounts, other things that they did directly as an account of your teaching. So as you hear that out loud, and I know you’re a humble person by nature, but what does that mean to you in terms of the impact this work has had on people over the past 20 years? And what do you hope is the legacy of this book going forward?

Joe Baker: First of all, Nicki was very generous in her review. And I appreciate that. Well, it just gives validation, you know, when I hear students come back and they’ll repeat a story and say what they’re doing, if they paid off $200-something thousand dollars in student loan debt in four years, which one has, and when they tell me that those stories, that just validates why I did this. Financial illiteracy is — you know, you could be a pharmacist, doctor, lawyer, and still be financially illiterate. Just because you’re smart doesn’t mean — or high IQ — doesn’t mean that you know how to control your finances. So it makes me feel good, it’s the reason I do it. It’s a selfish reason because I know that I’m getting feedback and kind of confirmation of what I’m doing is the right path. So that’s what keeps me going at this. This was all — the first I think it was 10 years that I did this, I didn’t even get any pay, so it was — they came to me, the school came to me and says, ‘Hey, we want you to do this both semesters.’ I said, ‘Well, I was thinking I might not do it at all.’ They said, ‘Well, how about if we paid you?’ which wasn’t much. I said, ‘OK, I’ll do it both semesters.’ So anyway — and the way I look at it is it’s an unlimited attendance in my class. It’s tough, but if I can reach one or two people that would have not been in there if we had had a maximum size, then it’s worth it. So that’s almost like an evangelical feel to it, reaching more and more people.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, absolutely. And I know in talking with several of your pupils, you know, and speaking from personal experience, it’s not even just them. Obviously there’s the impact that you will have on them but also the folks that they interact with, that they rub shoulders with, the kids that they’re raising. I mean, this is one of the things we always talk about, hopefully a generational impact you can have in helping people shore up their financial plan to be able to do and achieve the things that they want to do. And ultimately, as you talk about in Baker’s Dirty Dozen Principle No. 13, to be able to have an impact on their communities, on their places of worship, on others, and to be philanthropic as they can do so once they have their own financial house in order. So I know your work has had a great influence on me. I mean that genuinely. I’m confident it’s going to do the same, it has done the same, will continue to do the same, with others. And I’m so glad that you ended up writing this because one of the beauties of a book is that this resource will live on. And it will have an impact, and people will be able to build upon this work, they’ll be able to give feedback on it, and ultimately hopefully be a conversation-starter for many in their own financial plan. So Joe, again, congratulations on the book.

Joe Baker: Thank you.

Tim Ulbrich: Excited to be a small part of this alongside of you in this journey. And again, to our listeners, head on over to BakersDirtyDozen.com. Through November 7, you can use the coupon code BAKER for 15% off. And as always, we appreciate you joining us on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your day.

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