financial goals

YFP 347: Redefining Retirement with David Zgarrick, Ph.D. (YFP Classic)

Posted on February 22, 2024February 22, 2024 by YFP Media

Dr. David Zgarrick, retired professor, redefines retirement after 30+ years in academia and shares insights on embracing a fulfilling post-pharmacy life.

Episode Summary

This week on the YFP Podcast, we revisit a classic. On episode #291, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, welcomed Dr. David Zgarrick, a Professor Emeritus of Northeastern University, to the show to discuss redefining retirement. Some highlights from the episode include Dr. Zgarrick sharing his views on his next phase in life, after 30+ years in academia, as a preferment phase of his career. He shares how and why he started planning for his financial future early on in his life and career and hands down advice for new pharmacy graduates facing competing financial priorities. Throughout the discussion, listeners will hear Dr. Zgarrick speak on standout moments from his pharmacy career, the impact his financial choices have had on that journey, and ultimately his decision to enter this preferment stage of his career. He shares excitement for retirement and this next phase of his life, what he means by a preferment phase, and how retirement can be an opportunity to experience a rich, fulfilling life outside of pharmacy without the guilt of competing responsibilities. Listen for helpful advice Dr. Zgarrick took from his financial advisor regarding his first year of retirement and how factoring in a cross-country move played a role in his retirement and financial plan.

About Today’s Guest

David P. Zgarrick, Ph.D., is a Professor Emeritus in the School of Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Sciences at Northeastern University. His prior positions include Associate Dean of Faculty at Northeastern’s Bouvé College of Health Sciences, Acting Dean of Northeastern’s School of Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Sciences, Chair of the Northeastern’s Department of Pharmacy and Health Systems Sciences; John R. Ellis Distinguished Chair of Pharmacy Practice at Drake University College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences; and Vice-chair of Pharmacy Practice at Midwestern University Chicago College of Pharmacy. He is a licensed pharmacist, receiving a BS in Pharmacy from the University of Wisconsin – Madison and a MS and Ph.D. in Pharmaceutical Administration from The Ohio State University. Dr. Zgarrick taught pharmacy practice management and entrepreneurship in the health sciences. His scholarly interests include pharmacy workforce research, pharmacy management and operations, pharmacy education, and development of post-graduate programs. He has published over 150 peer-reviewed manuscripts and abstracts, is co-editor of the textbook Pharmacy Management: Essentials for All Practice Settings (5th Ed), and authored the book Getting Started as a Pharmacy Faculty Member. He was editor-in-chief of the Journal of Pharmacy Teaching, Executive Associate Editor of Currents in Pharmacy Teaching and Learning, and an editorial board member of Research in Social and Administrative Pharmacy. Dr. Zgarrick is active in many professional organizations, including the American Pharmacists Association (APhA) and the American Association of Colleges of Pharmacy (AACP). He served on AACP’s Board of Directors for 12 years, including as Treasurer from 2016 – 2022. Dr. Zgarrick also serves on the Board of Visitors for the University of Wisconsin School of Pharmacy, the Board of Grants for the American Foundation for Pharmaceutical Education, and is a Fellow of the American Pharmacists Association.

Key Points from the Episode

Why David views the next phase of life after 30+ years in academia, not as a retirement, but rather, as a preferment phase of his career.
How and why he started planning financially early in his career to put himself in a position of having choice.
Advice he has for new grads that are facing the financial headwind of many competing priorities including student loans, saving for the future, and buying a home.

Episode Highlights

“I think when one thinks about getting to this stage in a career, I mean, there’s been so much that’s been rewarding and interesting about the work that I do. But like anyone, none of our career paths or jobs are perfect. They all come with sometimes things that we would just assume not be doing. Or the longer we’ve been doing something, we get to know ourselves pretty well.” – David Zgarrick, Ph.D.

“Money is a means to an end. It is not an end in and of itself. The same as our career. We have to think of our career path as a means to an end. Not the end in and itself.” – David Zgarrick, Ph.D.

“I remember one time you posted on one of your blogs or something, what’s the most fun thing one can do when you’ve got some extra money? And I think I remember my comment to that post was: save it. And to some people that might not seem the most exciting thing in the world. But when I can take that money and put it in the bank, that tells me that I’m going to have that for – I’m going to be able to make decisions in a future based on having made that decision now to save that money. And it’s going to give me options that I know other people might not have if they didn’t save that money.” – David Zgarrick, Ph.D.

“We have money and we manage our money because we want to be able to live a life that’s meaningful to us. And however that is, I’m not here to judge how one spends their money or what one does with their money. So long as you’ve got the money to be able to do it, that’s our choices. It’s your choices to be able to do that how you wish.” – David Zgarrick, Ph.D.

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I had the pleasure of welcoming Dr. David Zgarrick, a professor emeritus of Northeastern University College of Pharmacy. Some of my favorite moments from the show including hearing Dave share why he views the next phase of life after 30-plus years in Academia not as retirement but rather as a preferment phase of his career. How and why he started planning financially early in his career to put himself in a position of having choice? And advice he has for new grads that are facing the financial headwind of many competing financial priorities, including student loan debt, buying a home and saving for the future.

Now, before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP planning does and working one-on-one with more than 280 households in 40-plus states. YFP planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized to the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether or not YFP planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

Okay, let’s jump on my interview with professor emeritus Dr. Dave Zgarrick.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:29] TU: Dave, welcome to the show.

[00:01:30] Dr. DZ: Thank you. Thank you. It’s great to be here, Tim.

[00:01:33] TU: Well, I’m really excited to have you on to dig into your professional journey and the impact that finances has had throughout your journey so that you could retire or perhaps better said, as we’ll talk about, take a half-time break at the age of 57. And you and I have known each other for several years through the academic circles. And when I saw your post on LinkedIn about entering this next phase, I knew that your story would have such a great impact on our community. So, thanks so much for coming on the show.

[00:02:00] Dr. DZ: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I’m really great to be here. And it’s great to think about half time. It was interesting, I’m a Green Bay Packers Fan. You’re a Buffalo Bills fan. Just thinking about half time. We’re about halfway through the NFL season. It’s time to make some adjustments. And I think both the Packers and Bills will have some adjustments to make. And so, we can talk about how we make financial adjustments as well.

[00:02:22] TU: I love that. I love that. Let’s start with your pharmacy career. When did that Journey begin and what drew you into the profession to begin with?

[00:02:31] Dr. DZ: I’m from an interesting community. I’m from Marshfield, Wisconsin, which is a relatively small community in Central Wisconsin. But it’s a very unique community and that Marshfield has a very large medical center. It’s the Marshfield Clinic. It has now the Marshall Medical Center.

I grew up with health and healthcare even though no one in my family was a healthcare professional. My father was an administrator for a dairy corporation. My mother is an educator. She taught special education. I was not brought up in a healthcare background. But I had lots of friends and knew lots of people that were in the healthcare space.

And as I was going through high school, I was thinking about health and healthcare a lot and thinking about wanting to go down that pathway. I was reasonably good at all the things they tell you you’re supposed to be good at in high school, math and science, and communications and all those things.

I had honestly probably was thinking first about medicine at the time. I was going to go to medical school. I guess, in some ways I was very fortunate. I went to a career day seminar and one of the speakers that came to that career day seminar was someone from the University of Wisconsin School of Pharmacy. And talked a little bit about pharmacy and what pharmacists did and so forth. And pharmacy hit a good spot.

And again, I’ll give my parents credit. They were very pragmatic with me when it came to where are you going to go to college? And what are you going to major in college? That kind of stuff. And they were said, “You know, you can go to college anywhere you want. And you can major in anything you want so long as you can support yourself when you’re done.”

And to that end, pharmacy seemed it was a great at the time. Keep in mind. It was a five-year BS degree at the time, which was a great fit. Because in some ways I’m thinking, “Okay, I’m going to learn all these things that are going to help me if I go to medical school. Become a physician. I’m going to learn a lot about drugs, and a lot about health and health care and so forth.” Worst case scenario, if I don’t get medical school, I could be a pharmacist and I’ll be able to support myself.

I’ll say two things happened along the way. One, I recognized that being a physician wasn’t all it was cracked up to be. And especially the pathway towards becoming a physician. It’s not just medical school, of course. It’s residency and training and everything that that life brings. And then I also learned that there’s so much more to pharmacy than I had envisioned there was. Probably many people, when you start down this path. Growing up in Central Wisconsin, honestly, my only connection with pharmacy was with community pharmacy.

I saw people, primarily men, wearing white coats working behind counters and seeing them take big bottles of pills and put them into little bottles of pills. And didn’t think that much more of it. Obviously, as I learned so much more of about not only what the role of pharmacy was at that time but what we were seeing it begin to evolve to. Towards not just dispensing medications, of course, but really using our knowledge and expertise to help maximize the benefits from medication therapy.

I was fortunate. I had some really good experiences along the way. I hooked up with folks that were doing research in a variety of different ways. I spent one summer doing medical research working in a lab. And honestly said to myself, “That’s not what I wanted to do.”

But I spent more time doing research with social administrative scientists and learning about the kinds of questions that they asked. My parents will tell you I am one of those people that always ask questions. I was one of those always kids that always asked, “Why? Why? Why?”

And as you can imagine, parents, you being a parent yourself, you’re probably – at a certain point, you just want to tell your kids go figure it out yourself. Because, honestly, that’s what we do as researchers. We ask questions and we have the tools to be able to learn how to figure it out ourselves.

Now, my questions I was very interested in asking were honestly about pharmacists themselves. The work they do. How they’re rewarded for that? What their ambitions are? Where they see themselves going with their careers? As a pharmacy workforce researcher, my interest is very much in who pharmacists are and what they want to do with that pathway.

And so, I got my pharmacy degree from Wisconsin. I went and worked as a community pharmacist for several years. Worked for a company that’s called Shopko. Unfortunately, Shopko is no longer with us. But many of us probably remember what Shopko was. And for a number of years, they were a great place to work with because I really used my knowledge as a pharmacist and as a pharmacy manager working for Shopko.

But then went back to – went to Ohio State for graduate school. That was a good place to be able to go to be able to learn the research tools that I needed to have to be able to do the research that I do is. As well as to get more experience with teaching and educating.

I had gotten some experiences as a teaching assistant, as an undergraduate student at Wisconsin already. But then at Ohio State, I got even more experience and learned what it was like to be in part of a classroom of 100 students and have to be prepared and have to help students understand how does their knowledge of this particular topic fit into a bigger picture of all of the things that we expect them to know as a pharmacist?

As I finished up my graduate work, I had options. I could go work for the pharmaceutical industry. I could go work with a managed care organization. I could work with wholesalers like Cardinal, or McKesson, or Bergen or something like that. There were lots of options.

Ultimately, I chose the academic path because I really enjoyed that ability to not just continue to do research but to connect with students and to really – it felt that I could have the biggest impact in my profession. And ultimately, the biggest impact on patients by continuing to train and help educate the next future generations of people that are going to go into pharmacy.

[00:09:00] TU: I love that, Dave. And you would ultimately spend 30-plus years across three different institutions in that area of work and I know have had an impact on so many other colleagues that you’ve crossed path with, obviously, the thousands probably of students that you worked with over the years.

[00:09:17] Dr. DZ: It’s interesting. At this point of one’s career when – yeah, one naturally does kind of look back at those types of things. And I started adding up the numbers between the institutions I’ve taught. And I’ve been the professor of probably close to 5,000 students over the years. I’m editor of a textbook and I work with several others on that book as well that I know is used in most colleges of pharmacy in the United States. And including not many colleges of pharmacy across the world. And so, it’s kind of cool to think about how one has an impact not necessarily even just directly like we are used to with our patients. But that indirect impact that the work that we do can be used by so many people.

[00:10:01] TU: One of the reasons I was so excited for this interview, Dave, is that I think there’s often a perception around retirement that folks might be limping towards that line. Or begrudgingly working late in their career. Or there’s a lot of energy around early retirement. But often, I think that’s with the context of that someone may not necessarily be enjoying the work that they’re doing.

And what’s really interesting about your story is the great career you have had. The fulfillment and joy you had in your work. The impact you had on many others. But also, this excitement around the next phase of life. And to me, that is what – when we talk about preferred retirement, when we talk about what retirement may look like and the vision of like that, that to me is the success I know that I’m yearning for, is to have an option and choice, of course. But also, to look back and feel like, “Wow! I love the time that I had and the impact and the opportunities I had.”

And you shared something really interesting on LinkedIn. You said that, “While I may have concluded the pharmacy educator phase of my career, I certainly don’t think of myself as being done.” And to borrow a phrase from Lucinda Main, someone we both know. You said you’re entering the preferment phase of your career. Fortunate to have the luxury of choosing what you’d like to do. Who I’d like to do it with? And taking the time to figure it all out. I love that, the preferment phase. Talk to us more about what that means to you.

[00:11:31] Dr. DZ: Thank you so much, because I feel so fortunate to be able to be at this phase of my career. And I want to share my wife, Michelle, who’s also a pharmacist who I met in graduate school at Ohio State. She has also started at her preferment phase as well. She was a pharmacist. Worked in the hospitals and outpatient oncology settings for many years. And has decided to start her preferment stage at this point with us.

But, no. I think when one thinks about getting to this stage in a career, I mean, there’s been so much that’s been rewarding and interesting about the work that I do. But like anyone, none of our career paths or jobs are perfect. They all come with sometimes things that we would just assume not be doing. Or the longer we’ve been doing something, we get to know ourselves pretty well.

And I say to myself, “Well, these are things that I really like that I’m really interested in.” And then there’s other parts of my job that I’m doing that, “Well, I’m not so interested in those things.” And I’m just doing them because at a certain point you kind of feel you have to. And I guess this is, again, a good position to be able to be in.

When one thinks about preferment, I mean, yes, I stepped off in academia what we call the tenure track. I was a tenured full professor, which in many respects is the ideal position. It’s the golden ring that many people go towards. This idea that you have a lifetime contract. And I was very fortunate to have a lifetime contract at a leading university and was well-compensated for what I did. I’m very fortunate to have been in that position.

That said, if you’re staying in that position, you’re going to keep doing all of those things essentially for the rest of your career. And I just kind of said to myself, “Maybe not.” Maybe there are other things I’d like to do. Again, there’s things I like doing. There’s things that I don’t like doing. And then there’s this whole outside of my job life, the things that make me, so to speak, that I kind of wanted to think I’d like to be able to do them without feeling guilty that I should be doing something else. And so, no, I decided that this was a good point in my life to be able to make this type of change.

[00:14:01] TU: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think – No pressure, Dave. But I think you and maybe Lucinda should work on a book on the preferment phase. Because I think – and we try to find this balance. But we focus so heavily on the dollars and cents, right? Really important. We got to have enough to cover our needs and the goals we have. Whatever those may be. But we tend to overlook both in retirement as well as throughout our careers. What does it mean to live a rich life? Not just dollars and cents. But at the end of the day, money is a tool, right?

[00:14:34] Dr. DZ: Oh, exactly. Exactly. I couldn’t agree with you more. Money is a means to an end. It is not an end in and of itself. The same as our career. We have to think of our career path as a means to an end. Not the end in and itself.

Again, when I stepped back and thought about that, I think about my family. And it was difficult sometimes especially during the pandemic. I mean, my family was back in the midwest, in Wisconsin, in Chicago and so forth. And there was a long time where we literally couldn’t travel to go see them. My wife’s family was in Ohio. The same thing. My wife was working at a hospital and they’ve literally told her, “Well, if you leave the state of Massachusetts to go visit your family, you have to quarantine for two weeks before you come back to work. And that, just for a long time, wasn’t viable for either of us.

We started thinking about our families. We started thinking about the things we enjoy doing. I mean, I enjoy skiing. I enjoy getting out on my bike and going on rides and that kind of stuff. And some of the mental type things that we all like doing and so forth. The things that honestly make us us.

I look to this point of life that we’ve entered now where it’s giving us more space and time to be able to do that and not feel like, “Oh, I’ve got to do this job aspect of my job or that aspect of my job.” I mean, we’ve figured out ways to be able to manage that.

[00:16:09] TU: One thing I mentioned to you before we recorded is I’m reading right now a book called Retirement Stepping Stones by Tony Hixson. We’ll link to that in the show notes. And this was recommended to me by a shared colleague that really John [inaudible 00:16:23] said, “Hey, Tim you got to read this book,” to really have perspective on what he and I were talking about at the time, which is more this concept of life planning. Again, need the dollars and cents. But also, what are the goals? What’s the vision we have to live life well?

And Tony Hickson, in this book, talks about retirement not as a finish line but how we need to be thinking about as a half time. And I love that. Because what do we do at halftime, right? You already kind of mentioned it when our Bills and Packers played. You adjust. You adjust and you have a plan.

Yes, it’s been informed a little bit by what’s been happening. But it’s a time to reset, to look ahead and to make sure we have a plan. We don’t just go out into the third quarter and hope it’s going to work out, right?

My question for you is it’s clear to me, Dave, when I hear you talk talking about investment of more time with family, with the outdoors, and skiing and traveling. That there’s these other goals. But there’s been thought and intention behind this transition. And talk us through that a little bit more and how you and your wife got to this decision point and ultimately painted the picture of what this vision would look like.

[00:17:28] Dr. DZ: Yeah, I think for many of us – I mean, in some ways, it’s been a conversation we’ve thought about for a long time. I mean, we knew from this point that we started working that someday we were going to retire. We weren’t just going to stay chained to our desks, or to our hospitals, or universities forever and ever.

We knew that that day was going to come. We didn’t necessarily know when that was going to be. But we started saving and thinking accordingly for that knowing that it would come. And so, there was an aspect of having a financial plan that we started to put in place.

Moving forward, I’ll say, like many people, we did get to the pandemic and kind of said to ourselves, “As our jobs were changing and our careers were changing, are these changes we wanted to make –” I mean, in some ways we made them because we had to. We all adjusted and so forth. But did we want to continue down this pathway? And I think we put some thought and energy into this.

And then now, I’m going to say we also sat down with a financial advisor. And actually, I’m going to mention just a little bit thinking about finances. Because, of course, there is a financial aspect to be able to make these decisions. Like I said, my wife and I had started saving. And we are savers. That’s part of our culture.

I remember one time you posted on one of your blogs or something, what’s the most fun thing one can do when you’ve got some extra money? And I think I remember my comment to that post was save it. And to some people that might not seem the most exciting thing in the world. But when I can take that money and put it in the bank, that tells me that I’m going to have that for – I’m going to be able to make decisions in a future based on having made that decision now to save that money. And it’s going to give me options that I know other people might not have if they didn’t save that money.

Like I said, we were pretty good savers. That said, we didn’t have – let’s say, we didn’t have a sense of when halftime was or how we were actually going to go about making that decision. And so, in some ways I was really fortunate that a financial planner, so to speak, somewhat fell into my lab.

My parents had set up a life insurance policy for me when I was born. Like, many families do with their kids. And it was a whole life policy that had a relatively small cash value. But let’s just say a number of years later somebody from that company reached out to me and said, “Have you thought about your retirement and retirement planning?” And for years I just kind of put them off thinking, “Oh, you’re just somebody trying to sell me more insurance or something like that.” And didn’t pay much attention to them.

But then, ultimately, we just kind of – I’ll give him credit for his persistence. But every year, he came back and touched base. How’s things going and all that kind of stuff? And then ultimately kind of said – it kind of hit me that, “Yeah, I could really benefit the perspective from somebody like this.”

Because like I said, I’ve done – I’m a pretty informed investor so to speak. I’ve done a pretty good job of saving and thinking about where my money was going to go, and making our money work the best for us and all that kind of stuff. But that still doesn’t give us necessarily a sense of when can you say it’s half time? And when can you make that decision?

Tom, our financial advisor, really helped us with that thought process. And I’ll say I remember this very well because it was January 2021. We’d all been living through the pandemic for the better part of that year. And he just kind of sat down with us and said, “Well, okay, given what you’ve saved to this point, if you guys decided today if you wanted to not continue to do the jobs you’re doing right now and start living off of your savings based on the lifestyle that you have, of course. The spending patterns that you have and everything. He told us, essentially, you could live within – you could live to be 95 and you have a 95% chance of not running out of money. And we kind of thought to ourselves, “Wow! That’s a really good thing to hear.”

And just having that conversation really kind of opened up our eyes to, “Well, what could we do? What are the things?” Not so much the things that we felt like we had to do, but what do we want to do? Where could we go from here? And I think that’s where we really started saying, “Okay, this is – we’re going to start moving down this path.”

I mean, I didn’t – needless to say, didn’t immediately go to my boss and say I’m leaving. We had a very good conversation about how this was going to look. And honestly, it was more than a year and a half after I had that conversation. I didn’t officially retire from Northeastern until this past August. We had that conversation. My wife had that conversation with her folks at our hospital. And then we started planning for what our next phase of our life is going to be.

We started thinking where do we want to be? Do we want to stay in the Northeast? Or do we want to start thinking about other parts of the country that we might want to live in and so forth? We landed on Denver is where we decided we wanted to be. We started going through the work of preparing to sell our places in the Northeast and find a place to live in Colorado.

And I’m going to add real estate to that mix of your financial picture that you go through in making these decisions about what your total financial picture is. Because we’ve always thought of our homes not just as a place to live but as an investment that we are going to buy and hopefully sell for more than we paid for them at some point.

But we went ahead and started making those decisions and putting that into motion. And as of last March, or this past March, we made the move from Boston to Denver. nd I’ve been very happy that we made that move. It’s worked out very well for us.

[00:23:59] TU: Let me ask for, I suspect, some pre-retirees that are listening thinking, “Ugh! Dave, I love the story and the journey.” Maybe they even look at their numbers and say, “I think it’s there.” But then they are living the reality of 8%,9% inflation, market volatility. There’s so much discussion out there of when you retire and what the market’s doing can have a long-term impact on returns and how you mitigate that risk around retirement. Talk us through – for you, obviously, we can plan scenarios. I don’t know if any of us were planning for this type of inflation volatility.

[00:24:35] Dr. DZ: Well, that’s a really good point. And believe me, I’ve had some thoughts about what we’ve gone through and in terms of the timing. I mean, when I think about even what the environment was back in early 2021 where in some ways, yeah, the stock market was starting to come back pretty strong at that time. Inflation was still pretty low. Interest rates were really low.

One of the things – Needless to say, we go into an environment now. One of the things my financial advisor advised us of. And I can’t begin to tell you what a good piece of advice this was, was to be reasonably liquid going into what essentially will be your first year of – I’ll keep using the word preferment because I’m just not convinced that I’m retired.

But he said, “Basically, you want to have a year’s worth of spending money, liquids, such that you don’t have to sell stocks in order to be able to have money to live on essentially.”

And I’ll say this, it was actually relatively easy for us to be able to do that not just with some of our financial instruments that we had been using. We used them for a variety of instruments. I mean, from equity, to bonds and other types of things that everyone else uses. But again, this was the aspect of buying and selling real estate. We owned two properties outright in Massachusetts – one in Massachusetts. One in Maine. And when we sold those, we were able to purchase a home in Denver, as well as have a little bit of cash on hand.

And having that cash on hand has made things a lot easier. Now, no one likes 8%, 9% inflation of course. And it’s certainly taken a little bit of a bite out of that cash at hand. But it’s also saved us from having to go and sell stocks at a time where stocks have taken like in the past year – What? A 20% dive.

The one thing, thinking about stocks – I mean, I have confidence that the markets will come back. I’ve seen markets go down before and they’ve always come back. And looking at our economy and the things that underpin it, the market will come back. I don’t know exactly when and how it will. If I knew that, I probably wouldn’t be doing the preferment thing. I’d be making a lot more money as a financial advisor.

But anyway – but I had that confidence that it will. And with that confidence I know that essentially the way we have things structured, this combination of different assets that we’re utilizing to be able to make these decisions. It’s not just one type of asset class that you look at. It’s not just your 401k, for example. There’s a variety of different ways that we can get to what we’re doing.

And you know what? Another thing, just to get to think about this preferment thing, too. I mean, preferment does not mean not working or no income. It’s likely going to mean different types of things. I mean, I’ll say, as I’ve moved into this phase, I’m doing what most of us would call consulting work. I’m working with a couple of different universities right now. I want to add some teaching stuff. I want to add some more administrative stuff. Helping them deal with some issues that they’re dealing with and so forth.

And, again, just utilizing the expertise that I’ve developed over the years to be able to do some things. I mean, it’s bringing in a small amount of income. Definitely not as much as I was making when I was working full-time. But that’s okay. I don’t need as much as I was working full-time.

My wife’s in the same position. I mean, she is a pharmacist. She could go back and work as a pharmacist. I mean, especially right now, there’s lots of demand. She could. I don’t actually know if that’s really what she wants to do. She’s been telling me that her next job may be working at a Trader Joe’s. And for her, that, again, this could be the perfect thing for her.

[00:29:02] TU: Store discount. Bonus. Right?

[00:29:03] Dr. DZ: Exactly. Exactly. Believe me, that comes in handy. But again, that’s the sense of my wife and I were both very money pharmacists. We were well-compensated people. We were not hurting for income. But I just took a step back and said, “I don’t need or even want to live my life where I have to depend on having that level of income for the rest of my life. I just looked at it and said, “I can do the things I want to do and live a very good life on not having that level of income.”

[00:29:44] TU: Yeah. And that takes me – Dave, I’ve been thinking as you’re talking, you’ve said several things that have caught my attention. Your somewhat inherent behavior around saving. Really, this mindset around, “If I had an option to spend extra money, I’d save it because I could think about the growth and delay gratification into the future.” And those are a sneak peek into a mindset around how we think about and how we handle our money.

And it feels like, as you’re talking, that this is something that has been ingrained in you for a long time either through personal interest, research, family experience, whatever may be the case.

[00:30:20] Dr. DZ: We were talking a little bit about this before we came online. I mean, it’s almost fair to say I’ve been thinking about this essentially from the time I was born. Because I was born into a family of savers essentially. I like to use the example of my folks – again, like I said, my father was an accountant who went to work in the dairy industry in Wisconsin. And my mother was a teacher. Between the two of them, they had a decent middle-class income, of course, and everything. But again, always saved. Part of it was to be able to save to send myself and my two brothers to college, which again I cannot begin to tell you how fortunate I was to be able to have parents who had saved for our college education and then gave us that ability to be able to start our lives without the debt that I know that many of our students have today as they’re getting that education. That, again, I know that I was so fortunate. And I’m very thankful to my parents for that.

But even more than that, it created a mindset in me that I saw what they did to be able to not only to provide a college education for me and my brothers, but to create the life for themselves as well. And my dad also retired at the age of 57. And now, – And again, retirement for him wasn’t retirement. It was. And I’ll still say is. Because my dad’s 82-years-old and is still doing this. It’s very much preferment.

My dad was – Like I said, he’s an account who had always specialized in tax. And while he was working in the dairy industry, he started doing people’s taxes during tax season. And then when he decided he didn’t want to work in the dairy industry anymore, he just said, “Well, what am I going to do?” He just essentially start – his side gig has been doing taxes. And he still has about 200 clients to this day, including myself.

[00:32:32] TU: In his 80s, right?

[00:32:32] Dr. DZ: In his 80s. It is that – I’ll say for this. It’s that great mental thing for him. It keeps him very engaged. A matter of fact, every year, this time of year actually, he goes back to tax school. It’s like a one-week seminar that he goes and learns about like, “Okay, what are all the new tax codes?” and all the new things that he needs to be able to work with people as a tax advisor on and all that kind of stuff.

And so, every year he goes to just that. And every year he shares it with me and tells me what I should be doing and how I should be preparing myself financially and that kind of stuff. But again, I just give so much credit to my parents because they had instilled in me mindsets about the value of saving and about just think about your finances really is just another one of our tools in our toolbox so to speak. It’s not an end of in itself. It’s a means to an end.

We have money and we manage our money because we want to be able to live a life that’s meaningful to us. And however that is, I’m not here to judge how one spends their money or what one does with their money. So long as you’ve got the money to be able to do it, that’s our choices. It’s your choices to be able to do that how you wish. But it’s just having those tools and having that mindset to be able to make those decisions has been a really great thing.

I remember probably likely somebody we both know, Karen [inaudible 00:34:13]. I went to graduate school with Karen back at Ohio State. She introduced me back, and I want to say this was probably 1990, 1991, to this little financial tool called Quicken.

And I have to think back. Back in 1990, ’91, I don’t know if you remember the Macintosh computers that were literally like these cubes. And so, I got one of the first versions of Quicken for Mac that was – it started – And honestly, it was this way of tracking your finances. Tracking how you use your money. Doing the checkbook thing but doing it on the register on Quicken and everything. And then the fact that it keeps track of everything.

I mean, I’m pretty proud to say now, I – what is it now? 30 some years later, I have – I still use Quicken to this day. And I have a record of my financial transactions that goes back over 30 years. And that’s been valuable to me. I mean, I can’t say that I go back and look at every transaction from 1992. But it does tell me when – let’s say if my financial advisor wanted to know, “What kind of money do you need to live on?” so to speak. Well, I had that data. I could get those answers relatively easily. And that’s been – Again, one of my bits of advice is whether it be Quicken or any of the other tools out there that help us get in that picture of ourselves financially, utilize those tools. I say I probably put one to two hours every other week into managing my various aspects of my finances. And for me, that’s always been time very well spent.

[00:36:14] TU: Yes. Yeah. And the consistency and compound effect of that is huge over time. And it’s interesting, you’re talking about tools and Quicken. Here in 2022, obviously, there are more tools than ever, apps, that will help us, software tools. But I would argue, some of the mindset and behavior, it is getting harder and harder just because of all the things that are competing –

[00:36:39] Dr. DZ: Or time and attention.

[00:36:40] TU: Yeah, tracking, easier execution I think is even becoming a little bit harder. Let me ask you one final question. I know we have some new practitioners that are listening. You obviously work closely with students and new grads as well. But folks that are feeling the headwind financially despite obviously making a good income, having a good potential for their income into the future but they’re facing large student loan debts. They’re looking at potentially the housing market and wanting to buy a home in this market. Inflation. Tim and Dave, you’re telling me I need to start saving early and max out my retirement accounts. I need an emergency fund. I need to get rid of my credit card debt. Just overwhelming, right? What advice would you have for those folks about some of the early wins and behaviors and habits that they can employ?

[00:37:32] Dr. DZ: I think you nailed it right there. Early wins. One step at a time. Rather than getting overwhelmed by all of these things that are hitting you. Focus on one thing that you can do that you can impact.

Yeah, a good example would be like my wife. Or my wife and I, shortly after we got married, she did have a little bit of college loan debt. And she was somebody – she had gotten a bachelor’s degree. She went to graduate school. And then she decided to go to pharmacy school. And so, it took her a little longer to go down that path. And she had a little bit of financial debt. We decided to focus – to prioritize on paying down that debt. It was the highest interest debt that we had.

And we did the things that we had to, which in the short term, yeah, everyone probably meant making some sacrifices. There were some vacations we didn’t go on. Maybe we bought the used car rather than the new car or something like that. There are all the little things that one does to be able to then have a little bit more money to put in the areas that you want to prioritize.

So, whether it’d be paying down student loan debt, or sitting to make a down payment on a house, or all the other things. I mean, the great news is, as pharmacists, we are relatively high-income folks. We have access to funds. It’s just a matter of how we decide to utilize those funds.

But, yeah, should focus on that one thing. Don’t get overwhelmed by all of the different things and thinking to myself, “Oh, gosh. There’s so much going on here. How am I going to handle all of this?” You can handle things. Do one thing at a time. Then use that leverage, that success you have in doing one thing. So, then go do the next thing.

[00:39:22] TU: Yeah, I love that, Dave. I talk a lot with new practitioners about that early momentum. And while any one financial decision or win may not feel monumental in the moment, it’s the compound effect in the momentum that comes from that over time. And there’s a natural excitement of like, “Okay, small win. What’s next?” Another win, what’s next? What’s next? And you look back three, five, ten years later, and some of those behaviors start to really compound and add up over time.

[00:39:49] Dr. DZ: Oh, that’s the one thing. I remember back, I was thinking in high school, you learn about compound interest. And the idea that interest builds on interest builds on interest. And again, I think about 30, 40 years into my career span, so to speak. The decisions we made very early on are definitely paying dividends today and how they do things.

Now, that said, I also don’t want to turn off or upset your readers who maybe aren’t that young anymore or maybe thinking of themselves, “Gee! I didn’t do that when I was you know 25-years-old. What am I going to do?” It’s never too late to start. And there’s a lot that one can do to make good financial decisions even – again, another really good habit I picked up from my parents is while I have credit cards and use them liberally, it’s with the sense of never – my dad just instilled in me. You will pay off your credit card in full every month. You will never carry a balance on these cards.

And that’s, again, always just been part of my mindset, that I use a credit card. I get that bill out of it every – Actually, I don’t even get a bill obviously. Everything’s electronic these days. And honestly, it’s automatically withdrawn from my checking account. But I – essentially, I use the credit that’s available. Credit is not necessarily a bad thing. I’m not one of these people who will say never use credit cards. Or don’t take out interests. And don’t take out loans. I mean, heck, a lot of us, the reality is we wouldn’t go to college. We wouldn’t be able to buy a home if we didn’t take out debt. Debt can and is a good thing. It just has to be used in balance with everything else. Because if it’s not in balance, it will take over in a not so good way.

[00:41:55] TU: Well, this has been fantastic. I knew it would. And it’s delivered. And I’m excited to get this out to our community. And really excited, Dave, for you in this next phase of your preferment. I think I’m going to adopt that term.

[00:42:09] Dr. DZ: That’s a great thing. I do think Lucinda and I should get together and write a book on preferment. But as always, one of the great things about being an educator is – you know, Tim, is you – it’s not just the impact you make on students when they’re in your classroom. It’s the impact you see as their careers move forward.

And I’ve been so blessed and fortunate to be able to stay in touch with many of my former students and not only see the successes they’re having and the things that they’re achieving in their lives, but to be able to share what we’re all doing and so forth. And to that end, I hope some of my former students are out there and are seeing this. And I would love to be able to stay in touch if there are things that I can share more with your listeners about how one prepares to get to the point in this life. The thing, decisions that we make as we get to this point.

I will still say, keeping on our football analogy, it’s still half time. And my wife and I are sitting in the locker room still making those plans for what we’re going to go out and do in the third quarter. And just like I’m offering advice to some folks. I’m also appreciating advice from people who have been down this pathway ourselves. And whether it’d be books or whether it’d be other folks that have made similar decisions to what we have. There’s a lot to learn. And to me, that’s always been the best part about the academic path, is it’s not the teaching. It’s the learning.

[00:43:45] TU: Absolutely.

[00:43:46] Dr. DZ: And the more that we can learn, the better off we’ll all be.

[00:43:49] TU: Well, that’s great. We’ll link to, in the show notes, your LinkedIn if folks aren’t already connecting with you. I know that’s a way they can reach out. All right. Thanks again, Dave. I really appreciate it.

[00:43:58] Dr. DZ: Thank you. Appreciate it a lot. Thank you very much.

[OUTRO]

[00:44:01] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the date publish. Such information may contain forward-looking statements are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacists.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 346: Developing a Budget That Works…And You Don’t Hate with Tim Ulbrich

Posted on February 15, 2024February 14, 2024 by YFP Media

Tim Ulbrich shares the importance of setting a budget for achieving your financial goals and five steps to help you get started.

Episode Summary

In this week’s episode, we learn all about one of the key first steps to mastering your money: creating a budget. You’ll learn how to implement a budgeting system that not only works, but is also enjoyable. Tim Ulbrich, YFP Founder and CEO shares a practical five-step process to help you get started. A budget isn’t a restrictive tool, but an important instrument that can empower you on your journey toward financial well-being and help align your money with your vision for a rich and fulfilling life.

About Today’s Guest

Tim Ulbrich is the Co-Founder and CEO of Your Financial Pharmacist. Founded in 2015, YFP is a fee-only financial planning firm and connects with the YFP community of 15,000+ pharmacy professionals via the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast podcast, blog, website resources and speaking engagements. To date, YFP has partnered with 75+ organizations to provide personal finance education.

Tim received his Doctor of Pharmacy degree from Ohio Northern University and completed postgraduate residency training at The Ohio State University. He spent 9 years on faculty at Northeast Ohio Medical University prior to joining Ohio StateUniversity College of Pharmacy in 2019 as Clinical Professor and Director of the Master’s in Health-System Pharmacy Administration Program.

Tim is the host of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast which has more than 1 million downloads. Tim is also the co-author of Seven Figure Pharmacist: How to Maximize Your Income, Eliminate Debt and Create Wealth. Tim has presented to over 200 pharmacy associations, colleges, and groups on various personal finance topics including debt management, investing, retirement planning, and financial well-being.

Key Points from the Episode

Budgeting for financial freedom. [0:00]
Pharmacist financial success and budgeting. [3:51]
Financial health check and budgeting. [7:32]
Setting a financial vision and budget. [11:40]
Budgeting methods for personal finance. [16:04]
Budgeting and financial planning. [20:54]
Budgeting and financial planning for pharmacists. [26:06]

Episode Highlights

“So I think it’s safe to say that most pharmacists didn’t spend six to eight plus years training to get into this profession, to work hard to find themselves living paycheck to paycheck.” – Tim Ulbrich

“So, if we can identify in advance what our goals are, and we can identify how much we have to allocate towards those goals, then the next step we’ll talk about is how to actually make sure we distribute them accordingly. All the sudden, we’re thinking in a way that we are pre funding our goals, right really important, rather than waiting to see what’s left over at the end of the month.” -Tim Ulbrich

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, I’m digging into how you can develop a budgeting system and process that works and is one that you don’t hate. During the episode, we’re walking through five steps that you can follow to implement your own budget. But before doing that, we’ll discuss why it’s crucial to do a financial vitals check along with some vision setting to get clear on what it looks like to be living your rich life.

Tim Ulbrich 00:32

Alright, YFP community, I’m really excited to invite you to our next webinar on March 7, at 8:30pm/Eastern: Budgeting Blueprint, What Zero Based Budgeting Is, Why It Works and How to Start One. This webinar is different than webinars we’ve done before. Not only am I gonna dive into the ins and outs of the zero based budget and the power behind assigning each dollar a job, but I’m going to be doing a live demo of a zero based budget using the YFP budget template. And we’re going to be anonymously featuring real pharmacists’ budgets for you to see. So here’s the deal. First, I want you to register for the webinar. It’s free, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budgetwebinar to save your seat. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budgetwebinar. Second, we’re gonna be giving away three $50 amazon gift cards to pharmacists who submit their budget to be featured and who attend the webinar live. Here’s how you can do that: you go to download your FREE zero based budgeting template at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budget again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budget, then go ahead and fill out your budget with your numbers. If you’ve never used a zero based budget before, don’t worry instructions are included in the template that will help you walk through the process. Make sure to save your budget, send us an email with that budget attached at [email protected]. And make sure to include the word “budget” in the subject line so we can quickly identify your template. In the email, I would love for you to also share any additional information that would be helpful for me to know, whether you’re a single income earner, whether you have dual incomes in the household, if you have any children, where you live. And of course, if you have any other questions that you’d like me to answer as it relates to your budget template. Then make sure to attend the webinar live for your chance to win one of the three $50 amazon gift cards. If you don’t want to turn your budget, no problem make sure to register for the webinar and we’ll send you the replay if you can’t join us live. Can’t wait to see you there and see the real life budgets from pharmacists in the YFP community.

Tim Ulbrich 02:37

Hi guys, Tim Ulbrich here. This week, we’re gonna be talking all about how to develop a budgeting system that works and hopefully is one that you don’t hate. Now if we’re being honest with ourselves, who gets a little nauseous when the topic of budgeting comes up? I mean, besides the future financial nerds out there, not many are a fan of the whole budgeting thing. Quote, “It takes too much time.” “I already know how much I spend.” “I don’t know how to make one and follow it.” “I’m afraid of what I might find when I track my expenses.” “I don’t like to be so restricted.” “I make enough money so I don’t need a budget.” These are just some of the most common reasons that I hear for all of the hate surrounding budgeting. So in that light, what if we thought of the budget instead as a mechanism by which we achieve our financial goals? It’s simply the roadmap. It’s the execution plan that we have for the vision for living our rich life. It’s the way that we’re going to achieve what we set out to achieve. Now what are the most common things I hear pharmacists say is, “Tim, I make a great income. But I don’t feel like I’m progressing financially.” And one of the greatest threats to a pharmacist long term financial success is believing that a six figure income equals financial success. That mindset I can guarantee you will hinder progress. And here’s why if you take the average pharmacists salary, a reasonable take home pay after taxes after health insurance premiums after any type of employer retirement contribution is about $7,000 per month, right, give or take. And if you assume the average student loan debt on a 10 year standard repayment, plus let’s just say a $400,000 home and interest rates today that adds up to about $4,500 per month or 65% of a pharmacist take home pay. Let me say that again. Between the average student loan debt and a $400,000. home on a 30 year mortgage. Right. I know some people live in higher cost living areas, some people live in lower cost of living areas. That adds up to about $4,500 per month of committed expenses or looking at it another way about 65% of that take home pay number that I just mentioned. That means we have about $2500 left each month for everything else, right all the other home related costs, property taxes, homeowners insurance, upkeep, of course food, clothing, car payments, gas, other debt payments, insurance premiums, additional savings, and not to be forgotten the more enjoyable discretionary expenses like vacation, experiences, eating out, giving, and so forth. So I think it’s safe to say that most pharmacists didn’t spend six to eight plus years training to get into this profession, to work hard to find themselves living paycheck to paycheck. Now, obviously, some pharmacist households have more than one income, so we have to factor that in. But regardless, we can see that the take home pay of a pharmacist only goes so far. And that’s why it’s critical that we shift the mindset that pharmacists make a great income. Yes, it’s a good income, one that is more than $50,000 higher per year than the average household income in the United States. So it’s a good income, objectively speaking. And so it’s a tool and it’s a pretty good one at that. But without a plan, it is going to have significant limits. So shifting your mindset around how much you make, and how far that income will go is the most important thing that you can do for your financial plan. Why? Because everything else will flow from that mindset, how you save, big purchase decisions, how you handle your debt, ideas for growing your income, and so on. So with that in mind, with the plan that we need to have one, right, we need to have some direction to make sure that we’re achieving our long term goals.

Let’s talk to you five steps to developing and automating a budget that works and hopefully is one that you don’t hate. Step number one is we have to do a financial vital check. Alright, before we get into the vision, before we get into the budget, we have to assess where we are at today. And sometimes this is painful. Sometimes this is exciting, right? Depending on the progress that we’ve made thus far. We need to really honestly assess are we on track? Are we ahead? Are we behind? And what does that even mean? And we don’t want to start running forward until we know where we’re at. And we want to find out what path we want to be running on. And a great starting point, certainly not the only place to be but a great starting point for the financial binos check is to really be tracking your net worth on a regular basis. Now, if you’ve been listening to the show, you’ve heard me talk about net worth many times before. Net worth is simply your assets or what you own, minus your liabilities or what you owe. And as I’ve shared often in my journey, paying off $200,000 of student loan debt and coming out of a significant amount of debt really into a period of trying to grow that net worth. This was a significant part of our journey, really shifting that mindset from income to being a tool, right income not being the end all to really being able to move that income to growing assets, paying down liabilities, and therefore growing net worth.

Now Dr. Tom Stanley in the book, The Millionaire Next Door, which if you haven’t read before, I’d highly recommend it. He says that one of the reasons that millionaires are economically successful is that they think differently. One of the reasons that millionaires are economically successful is that they think differently. And part of what he’s talking about here is this concept of income versus net worth . They recognize that income is a tool, but income by itself does not mean financial success. Now, what should be our net worth? Right? That’s an interesting question, what should be our net worth? And of course the answer that is it depends. But Dr. Tom Stanley in the book, The Millionaire Next Door gives us a calculation for expected net worth. And he says that your expected net worth is your age times your gross annual income divided by 10.

For example, if we had a 45 year old pharmacists making $140,000 per year, if we took 45 as their age, we multiplied it by $140,000 of income, we divide that by 10. That’s $630,000 would be their expected net worth for that 45 year old pharmacist making $140,000. Now in addition to net worth, that’s just one calculation. We certainly don’t want to hang our hat on that. There are other areas inside of this financial vitals check that we should be thinking about. Things like, where are we at with the emergency fund? Is that a box you’ve already checked? Is that something we need to focus on? Perhaps you looked at that several years ago, and now we need to update that because expenses have gone up. So where are we at with the emergency fund? That’s one part. Do we have revolving credit card debt? If so, typically, because of where those interest rates are we going to focus on that before we look at other parts of the plan. Have we landed on, for those that have student loans, have we landed on an optimized student loan repayment strategy? Critically important, many different pathways we can go. We know that certain strategies can be more advantageous than others in terms of cash flow, what we pay out of pocket, potentially forgiveness. So have you critically evaluated your loan repayment strategy? Other areas of the financial vitals check are we set with things like own occupation, Long Term Disability Insurance, or for those that need life insurance, we have a good term life insurance policy that’s going to cover the needs that we have, are we on track with retirement savings? Right?

We’ve talked about all these topics on the show before these areas, why it’s important to start here with the financial vitals check is all of these areas are going to potentially impact cash flow, and give us insight into where we want to prioritize and focus with the budget because you’ll see here in a moment, then we talk about how to execute on the budget. One of the things we need to know is what are the goals that we want to include in our budget? What are we focusing on? What are we prioritizing on in doing this vitals check is going to help us in part, identify what those areas are. Now if you want more information on this concept of financial vitals checking, you want to do your own financial vitals check, we have a neat tool available for free. If you go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/financial-fitness-test. That’s our financial fitness test, again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/financial-fitness-test that will take you to a quick interactive tool, and it’ll help you identify what some of these areas are to focus on. Again, we’ll link a link to that in the show notes. So that’s step one, doing the financial vital check.

Tim Ulbrich 11:40

Step number two, again, we’re not even in the budget yet, right? Step number two is setting the vision. I firmly believe, we firmly believe, that without a compelling vision, the budget will feel restrictive, right. Without a compelling vision, the budget will feel restrictive. And I can almost guarantee you as well that you will run out of gas at some point in time, if you don’t have a compelling vision, only to find yourself and the whiplash between, in and out of being intentional with your finances. Like we tend to approach other areas of our life, right, such as fitness, such as our diet, and so forth. If we have a compelling vision, think of that as the engine for the financial plan, especially if you are in a season of grinding it out or cutting back, which hopefully is temporary. But especially in those seasons, we want to have a very compelling vision that’s going to drive us forward and keep us motivated. So first things first, what does your rich life look like? What does your, keyword there, your rich life look like? I love this quote quote from Roy Bennett. He says, “Dream your own dreams achieve your own goals. Your journey is your own and unique.” That’s so important here, when we think about setting the vision for living a rich life. When we talk about our financial plan and our goals. It’s so easy to get caught up into what are other people doing or the comparison game. What does it mean for your family to be living a rich life. If we can get clear on that -something we’ve talked about on this show before – that’s gonna help us really have a strong plan when it comes to how we’re not only going to implement the budget, but how we’re also going to be able to achieve other financial goals like long term savings, and retirement. Don’t underestimate this step. Step number two, setting the vision think of this really as the window in which we’re looking through as we’re making any of the individual financial decisions.

Tim Ulbrich 13:44

Alright, step number three, is I want you to track back your spending 90 days. So before we get into the spreadsheets, before we start to set the budget going forward, I want you to track back you’re spending 90 days right? This is the audit of the expenses to identify how have we been spending our money before we set what the goal is going forward. Now, this is really easy to do. Thankfully, in 2024. Many banks, many tools, software options that are out there, that we can quickly pull statements from credit cards, from debit cards, from various accounts, and be able to aggregate these and many of them even automatically will categorize them for you. Sometimes you gotta clean that up. But this is a process that we think is really important before we set the plan going forward. Now 90 days, I believe is an important window of time, because in any given month, right in any 30 day period, we can have some anomalies with the budget that might not be “normal.”, right to the month that we would have throughout the year. And so 90 days is going to help to average that out a little bit. That’s one of the reasons we want to look back 90 days but also by looking back 90 days we’re going to start to identify some patterns of things that we might want to adjust or at least be aware of as we set the budget and plan going forward. So that’s step number three is we’re going to track back 90 days categorize those expenses, really look at what is our spending patterns, what’s the spending behaviors? And there, we’re going to quickly identify what’s the difference between our expenses, and what’s the differences between our take home pay, right, and that’s going to help us identify what we have to work with for the budget.

Tim Ulbrich 15:21

Alright, step number four is then actually setting the budget. Now, this is intentional that we don’t start here, right, I firmly believe from experience from working with many pharmacists on this that if we start with a budget, we tend to lose that momentum that I’ve been talking about. And especially if we have two people that are working on this together, where maybe they’re not on the same page financially, we want to first get clear on the vision, right? If we can have the shared dreams, the shared vision, I’ll never say the budgeting process is easy. But it’s more palatable when we’re working then from that mindset where, okay, now the budget is simply the execution of the vision that we’ve agreed upon. Right. So we don’t want to start here with a budget.

Of course, there are many ways to budget, some of you might be familiar with budgeting methods, such as the 50,30, 20 budget, which is about 50% of your expenses should be for essential, or excuse me, 50% of your income for essential expenses, about 30% of your income for discretionary expenses, those are the things that are the nice to haves, but we could cut them if we needed to cut them, and then about 20%, that’s going to go towards savings or investments. So there’s different models and frameworks of that. But many of you may be aware of something like that. There’s also budgeting methods that are known as like the no budget budget, which simply means that you identify, you know, what are those critical expenses that you have to fund each month, and then you just don’t overspend your income beyond that, right. And so that’s a method that we see people that are a little bit further in their career, that have a more significant rhythm and cadence to what they’ve been doing over a long period of time. They have a good handle on their expenses and their goals and whether or not they’re on track, that might be something that they’re not tracking in such a granular way. Okay, so lots of different ways to budget I’m going to focus though not on the 50-30-20 budget, not on the no budget budget, I’m gonna focus on the zero based budget, because I believe that while this isn’t for everyone, I believe that for many people that are trying to get either on track, let’s say you’re just getting started in your career, and you’re trying to develop a system that makes sure you’re setting yourself up for a good long term plan and that you have a good foundation, I think this is a great way to get started. And then you can pull back over time, or for those listening saying, hey, maybe you need to get back on track, or I’ve kind of lost my way. And I want to have a season of really getting refocused. I think the zero based budget method can be a way to do that.

Now, as a reminder, if you want to download the YFP budget template, so you can work along side as you’re listening, hopefully, you’re not driving as you’re doing this, you can go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budget to get that Excel template for free. Okay, so inside of this step of the zero based budget, I’m gonna walk you through five steps of how to complete the zero based budget. Step number one is you have to know your take home pay. Now, as obvious as that sounds, this can be challenging sometimes, right, especially for folks that are just getting started. You know, I see this often from a transition where someone’s going from student to resident or student to fellow and then they’re going into the first job, right? There’s that change that’s happening, or individuals that are going from one income to two incomes in the household, that certainly can be a season of change as well, or for those those seen that variable income. Right? Whether that be you know, side hustle income, additional income, or you don’t work consistent salary types of positions. This can be sometimes challenging, but we have to know on average per month, and for those of you that have variable income, we want to be conservative in this estimate. We have to know on average per month, what is our take home pay, right? This is the amount that you’ll be working with each month to cover your expenses and to put to work to achieve your financial goals. The take home pay or net pay is the amount that shows up on your paycheck, every pay period after taxes after health care insurance premiums that you pay after any retirement contributions and any other deductions that are withdrawn from your base pay or your gross pay. Okay, so for students, any students that are listening, right, this could also potentially include things like student loan disbursement money, plus any earned income that you would have in internships and so forth. So that’s step number one is that we have to determine our take home pay.

Step number two is we then want to account for and subtract our necessary or essential expenses. Now, the definition of necessary can be debated but for the purpose of this activity, let’s include the following as necessary or essential expenses. These would be things like housing, transportation, food, utilities, insurance premiums -if that’s applicable-and any minimum payments on your debts that you need to make. Now in this step, consider your food expense as what you need as an essential right, anything else that would be dining out, we’re going to include in discretionary in step number three in this budgeting exercise. Okay, so that’s step number two is we account for all of our essential or necessary expenses. And we’re working down from our take home pay.

Step number three, then is we’re going to determine how much we spend on discretionary expenses. Think of discretionary expenses as the nice to haves, but in a true financial emergency, they could be cut, if you needed to cut them, right, these would be things like eating out, you know, trips, extra trips, or shopping, extra payments on debt, clothing, expenses, beyond the minimum, you know, housing upgrades, and so forth. Right, it’s very easy to justify any one of these as essential. So it’s important here to be honest with ourselves, when evaluating this category. If you have no idea how much you spend on these types of expenses in a month, a good place to start is to review these from again, as we did earlier, looking back 90 days to review what you’re spending in these areas in various statements and categorize these whether that’s credit card statements, debit card statements, whatever might be the source of those expenses. Now, I want to emphasize here that discretionary expenses are not bad, right in any way, shape, or form. I think sometimes we get to this step, and we start to have some self judgment, and a little bit of questioning, Well, should I be spending money here? Should it be spending money there? Discretionary expenses, and of themselves are not bad, we’re just separating them from essential expenses as we look at this exercise. In fact, they’re an important part a very important part of living the rich life that we want to live, right? Yes, we’ve got to pay down debt. Yes, we have to save and invest for the future. But we also want to enjoy some of these things along the way. So that’s step number three is determining how much to spend on discretionary.

Step number four, then, is calculating what we call disposable income. Remember, we started with take home pay, we subtracted essential expenses, we subtracted discretionary expenses. And now what we’re trying to determine is what is the disposable income. So this is the amount that we calculate by taking, again, the take home pay, subtracting essential and discretionary expenses. This number is the amount that you have to put towards other financial goals, whether that’s building an emergency fund, whether it’s saving for kids college, whether that’s additional retirement savings, down payment on a home, second property, whatever might be the case. So for example, if you have a take home pay of $7,000, you have necessary expenses of $3,000, discretionary expenses of $2,000, you would have leftover $2,000 of disposable income that we can identify and work with and put towards other goals. Now, why this budgeting method, I think works well and hopefully is one that you don’t hate is we are doing this proactively, before we actually earn the income. Right? We’re doing this proactively before we actually earn the income. So, if we can identify in advance what our goals are, and we can identify how much we have to allocate towards those goals, then the next step we’ll talk about is how to actually make sure we distribute them accordingly. All the sudden, we’re thinking in a way that we are pre funding our goals, right really important, rather than waiting to see what’s left over at the end of the month. And that is what we typically see is sure this takes time to get set up. But when we have this system humming, when we see that we have disposable income, or we thought about that to assign to our various goals, and we know that we’re funding those goals, we can really see some feelings of momentum and progress that are taking place. So that’s step number four, calculating your expense, disposable income.

And then step number five is allocating that disposable income to your goals, right. This is where I really feel like the magic happens: allocating your disposable income to your financial goals. And again, we’re doing this proactively before we earn the income, or at least preparing for this. And then once we earn the income, we’re going to allocate accordingly. So if the amount of disposable income, right, in step number four, when we calculated that disposable income, if the amount of that disposable income isn’t enough to meet the goals that you’ve set and the timeframe that is desirable to you, or you find out that you have a deficit here, well, this is where really where the rubber meets the road. We’ve got some work to do. Right, we’ve got two options. We can adjust our goals, I guess three options, we can adjust our goals, we can cut our expenses, or we can try to grow our income and perhaps it might be a combination of those three, but this is really where we shine a light on the reality of where we are at and so often with the financial plan. The stress comes from living in the dark, right wondering, I hope, I wish, I dream are we going to be able to do this? And we’re going to be able to do that? Really, this system is telling us where are we at? And what are the areas that we want to focus on? And what are the dollars that we have available to do that if we can’t meet those two things? What adjustments do we need to make? Do we need to adjust our goals? Do we need to cut our expenses or, and or are their options to grow our income? Now, the reason why this is called a zero based budget is because at the end of step number five, where we’re allocating our disposable income to our goals, we should have “spent”, “spent” because we’re doing this proactively, our entire income, meaning that every dollar has been assigned, and we have a $0 balance remaining, right, because we’ve allocated every dollar to essential expenses, discretionary expenses, and then ultimately, to the goals that we’ve determined are most important.

Alright, so those are the five steps of creating the zero based budget. Now, if we zoom back out, remember, where did we start? We started with doing a financial vitals check. Where are we at today? What what is our net worth position? What are the areas of the financial plan that we want to focus on? We then talked about setting the vision, right? What does it mean, for us? Our unique plan and vision for living a rich life? How are we spending our money? How are we spending our time? We then talked about tracking back 90 days, so we can get an idea of what our spending is in various categories of the budget on average each month. And then we talked about setting the budget, right. And that was the five steps I just reviewed with a zero base budget.

Tim Ulbrich 26:31

Now the final step of all this part number five years really tracking and automating this system. Now how you choose to track this really doesn’t matter to me, at the end of the day, it’s the system that works best for you. And is the system that is feasible for you to keep going, at least for the foreseeable future. So when I asked a group of pharmacists, hey, what system do you use to track? You know, some people use some of the fancy softwares and tools that are out there, such as YNAB, or Every Dollar, just a couple examples, some use a tool that’s provided to them through their bank or the credit card that they use. Most people I would say, use probably a Google spreadsheet or some type of Excel template. So how you track it to me, doesn’t necessarily matter. But the second part of this final step, right, I mentioned, track and automate. Track and automate when it comes to automating your financial plan. It is so obvious, so effective, so easy to implement, but so many people aren’t optimizing this.

Think of automation as the mechanism by which you’re going to put your budget that we just said, we’re going to put this to work for us each and every month, because we’ve already done the hard work to proactively define what are our goals? And how are we going to prioritize and fund those goals. Now, I cover this in detail at length in Episode 341, where I talked about five financial moves to make in 2024, I talked about the concept of automation, I talked about exactly what the system looks like for Jess and I and our own financial plan. So make sure to go back and listen to that and how you can begin to implement automation as a part of your financial plan. Alright, so there you have it. Five steps that you can use to implement a budgeting system and process that not only hope, hopefully helps you achieve your financial goals. But I also hope makes this topic just a little bit more palatable. So we talked about the importance of doing that financial vital check, setting the vision, tracking back 90 days, setting the budget, and then developing a process to track and automate that along the way.

Alright, as we wrap up today, an important reminder about our webinar coming up on March 7 at 8:30pm/Eastern, Budgeting Blueprint, What Zero-Based Budgeting Is, Why It Works, and How to Start One. I’m really excited to walk you through in a visual manner how you can implement your own zero based budget as well as to anonymously feature other real pharmacists’ budgets for you to see. So to get started, you can register for the webinar for free again, you visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budgetwebinar again that yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budgetwebinar to save your seat. We’re gonna be giving away three $50 Amazon gift cards of pharmacists who submit their budget to be featured and who attend the webinar live. So as a reminder to have your template, your budget template featured, you can download that free zero based budget template yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budget, fill it out with your own numbers, send it back to us attach it [email protected], in the subject line make sure you note budget and then if you have any questions in your own budget template you want me to address during the webinar make sure to include those in the email as well. Alright, thanks so much for listening to this week’s episode of the YFP Podcast. We’ll catch you again next week. Take care.

Tim Ulbrich 29:51

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 345: 7 Personal Finance Books to Read in 2024 with Tim Ulbrich

Posted on February 8, 2024February 7, 2024 by YFP Media

Tim Ulbrich reviews seven impactful finance books he recommends for both seasoned investors and beginners to gain strategies and inspiration for success.

Episode Summary

In this episode, Tim Ulbrich continues the discussion from Episode 341 on “5 Financial Moves to Make in 2024.” The fifth “move” was about “setting a plan for your personal finance learning,” and this week, Tim dives into seven personal finance books that have profoundly influenced his financial journey.

With no particular order in mind, Tim shares insights from each book and how he has implemented key takeaways into his own financial plan. You can find links to all these recommended books in the show notes. Tim emphasizes that these are not just any books – they are ones he frequently recommends or gifts to others, and they have played a crucial role in his and his wife, Jess’, journey towards achieving financial freedom.

Whether you’re a seasoned investor or just starting on your financial journey, these books are a must-read (or re-read) in 2024. Tune in for valuable insights and inspiration to help you pave your way to financial success!

About Today’s Guest

Key Points from the Episode

Personal finance books and their impact on achieving financial goals. [0:00]
Balancing saving and spending for a rich life. [5:30]
Wealth-building books and their impact on financial planning. [9:30]
Building wealth through calculated risks and long-term investments. [14:09]
Personal finance books and their impact on the Tim’sjourney. [18:03]

Episode Highlights

“When it comes to personal finance, I believe strongly that there is no “arrived” with the financial plan. A commitment to ongoing learning and having the humility to understand that there is much to learn on this topic and mistakes are inevitable is key to long term success.” – Tim Ulbrich [01:49]

“Money is a tool that if we are planning appropriately, we can facilitate and direct to those areas that have the most significance.” – Tim Ulbrich [04:04]

“That’s why as we say, often, a good financial plan should take care of your future self, but also allow you to live a rich life today.” – Tim Ulbrich [07:13]

“Money is something that affords us the opportunity to pay for our basic needs and, if we’re able, to live our rich life and to give to others. And next time you hold a bill of any value in your hand, remind yourself that it’s a piece of paper. In fact, it’s a piece of paper that I recently learned is 25%, linen, 75% cotton. But this is a piece of paper that has value because, number one, we all agree that it has value. And number two, it’s backed by the faith and credit of the US government. So what’s my point? My point is that it’s finite, right. And if we’re not careful, we can miss the boat on accruing while losing sight of the so-what.” – Tim Ulbrich [20:00]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, I’m covering seven personal finance books that have been integral in my own journey that I think you should read or perhaps reread in 2024. My criteria for a book to make this list includes one that I frequently recommend or gift to others, and that I have implemented one or more things from the book of my own financial plan that has had a significant impact for Jess and I achieving our financial goals. Before we jump into the show and my list of seven personal finance books to read in 2024, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what our team at YFP Planning does and working one on one with pharmacists all across the country. YFP Planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning and wealth management services for pharmacists at all stages of their careers. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one on one with a certified financial planner can help you achieve your financial goals. You can book a free discovery call at YFPplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

Tim Ulbrich 01:17

Hey, everyone, welcome to this week’s episode! Tim Ulbrich here and I’m excited to talk through seven personal finance books that I think you should read or perhaps reread in 2024. For now, we kicked off the new year with Episode 341, where I cover the five financial moves to make to crush your 2024 goals. And we’ll link to that episode in the show notes. One of those moves was to set your learning plan. To have an intentional plan and effort to up your financial IQ and your financial knowledge. And when it comes to personal finance, I believe strongly that there is no “arrived” with the financial plan. A commitment to ongoing learning and having the humility to understand that there is much to learn on this topic and mistakes are inevitable is key to long term success. Now one of the greatest advantages that we have living in the 21st century is that we have access to learn just about anything that we want, often at low or no cost. Right. Thank you very much to the Public Library system. So here are seven financial books that have had a profound impact on my journey, such that I often recommend these books to others, gift them and I’ve implemented at least one often more than one of the teachings in my own financial plan.

All right, in no particular order. Let’s jump in with book number one, which is I Will Teach You To Be Rich by Ramit Sethi. Now I had the chance to hear Ramit meet speak in 2019 at the FinCon event the Fin Con Conference in Washington DC and it was fire. He’s a fantastic speaker, a fantastic teacher. And at the time, the theme of his talk, which he talks about the book I Will Teach You To Be Rich, is money dials. Money dials, a key concept in that book. And really the concept of money dials is identifying what areas of spending have the most significance, meaning or impact for you, and dialing those up. And on the flip side, finding those areas of spending that perhaps are somewhat automatic, and we may not even be thinking a whole lot about it. And they have the least significance, or meaning or impact and dialing those down. Right? It’s about intentional allocation of the dollars that we have and spending them in areas that we derive the most significance. Now it sounds obvious, but it’s easy to fall into the trap of spending money on things that you don’t really care that much about at the expense of not having money to spend on things that mean the most to you. And I love that he starts off the book with this, right? Because before we implement the X’s and O’s of the financial plan that you’ve heard me say on this podcast many times, we have to be clear on what does it mean to live a rich life.

Now he uses the terminology money dials, we talked about living a rich life, we’re talking about the same thing, right? Money is a tool that if we are planning appropriately, we can facilitate and direct to those areas that have the most significance. Now in fact, as a society, I would argue that we do this all the time, the literature shows us that experiences and giving derive the most significance in terms of the connection between happiness and money- hold that thought I’m gonna come back to that in one of the other books that I mentioned in this list of seven. Yet those two things often fall towards the bottom of the list as we give preference to less meaningful things. Now this is not about me saying what should or shouldn’t be meaningful, right? Everyone has different significance and meaning it’s about getting clear on what are those things that you derive the greatest significance and meaning from and is your financial plan is your spending in alignment with those areas?

Now, in addition to the concept of money downs in this book, his teachings on automation have stayed with me and are ones I’ve applied in my own plan and teach, often to other pharmacists. Now he says in the book that automating your money will be the single most profitable system that you’ll ever build. And I would whole heartedly agree with that. It takes time, a little bit of time to set up a perhaps not as much as you think. But once you have a system in place, where you’ve thought about and identified your goals, we’ve accounted for them inside of the monthly spending plan. And then we are automatically funding those goals. And we see that process happening. Boom, right? That’s when we’re really humming with the financial plan. In general, this book is a great personal Finance 101 read, it’s an easy read. Again, he’s a fantastic teacher. And I love the principles in this book and are principles that I often apply in my own financial plan. So first book on our list, I Will Teach You To Be Rich by Ramit Sethi.

The second book on my list is Die with Zero by Bill Perkins. Die with Zero by Bill Perkins. Now, this book is all about perspective, and was one of my favorite reads, if not my favorite read of 2023. This book is going to challenge you to think differently about the value of spending and finding that balance with saving or as we say, at YFP finding the balance between living a rich life today, and planning and taking care of our future selves. Now, if you’re an aggressive saver, guilty as charged, right, and you find yourself challenged to enjoy spending money today, right to let go the reins a little bit, this is a must read for you. Bill Perkins, in the book challenges traditionally held beliefs about retirement planning, and passing down generational wealth.

One of my favorite quotes from the book is when he says quote, “People who save tend to save too much for too late in their lives, they are depriving themselves now just to care for a much, much older future self, a future self that may never live long enough to enjoy the money.” Nothing in the future is guaranteed. Yet we should plan for our future selves. Both are true, right, we have to strike this balance. And that’s why as we say, often, a good financial plan should take care of your future self, but also allow you to live a rich life today. And if you’re feeling that tension, I think you’re gonna find a lot of value in this book.

Through Bill’s teaching, I’ve come to appreciate and still need a lot of help guidance and reminders from my financial planner, from Jess in our own plan, that spending just like saving is a learned habit. I was recently reminded of this after listening to an interview on Ramit Sethi’s podcast, where he was talking with a couple nearing retirement age that had over $6 million in net worth. It was quite sad to hear the husband rationalize with Ramit for almost two hours, all the reasons why he couldn’t spend and enjoy because he had to, quote, “first save it up” or quote, “work harder” to make up for what he was going to spend. Again, net worth of $6 million. So for all intents and purposes, they achieved their savings goals plus some, right? The plan had worked. They had gotten to that point that they were planning for all along. But despite what the numbers showed, he couldn’t shift his mindset. He was stuck in the grind and the hustle of working and saving, working and saving. And this is something we don’t talk about often enough with a financial plan that when we work hard for 30 or 40 years to save, that is a big transition. When we get to the withdrawal phase, right? We need to be planning for that. We need to be preparing for that. And we need training wheels along the way to help us with this learned behavior of spending. And the point that Ramit was trying to make and trying to get this husband to see is that in order to live a rich life, the plan that got them there can’t be the same as the plan going forward. Right, the plan that got them there to work hard to save, save, save, work hard, save, save, save, that mindset was going to require a shift in order to live a rich life. New behaviors need to be learned. And ideally, we can build these spending muscles throughout our careers and not just wait until some day off in the future that may or may not come and may or may not be what we have in mind. So my challenge for you is I highlight this book Die With Zero here by Bill Perkins not only to read the book, but my challenge to you is does your financial plan include a balance of saving for your future self and living a rich life today?

Number three in the book is Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki. Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki. Now, Robert Kiyosaki has recently come into the spotlight and many different controversial ways. So personality aside, his teachings in this book, in my opinion, remain a classic. This book is all about mindset, not X’s and O’s. Like some of the other books that are on the list today. And if you think of the financial plan as a series of decisions that need to be made, I think of this book as being a philosophy that guides those decisions, it’s the thread behind the decisions that we make. Now, some key takeaways from this book that have stayed with me for several years, I think I first read it about seven or eight years ago, maybe even longer. I’ve read it a second, maybe a third time at this point. And it’s one of those books I’d like to come back to every so often. And a few of the things that have stayed with me is that, you know, what we might think is an asset versus a liability. I think he challenges that mindset. Why the leverage is an important tool to build wealth. And of course, there’s risk with leverage. And we have to balance that. Also, what has stayed with me is why traditional W2 income limits wealth building. Traditional W2 income has limits as it relates to wealth building. And finally, why business ownership and real estate investing are key legs of wealth building. So he makes a strong argument that much of the tax code is really written in favor of those that own a small business and those that own real estate. Now, that’s not to suggest that those pathways are for everyone, by any means. But it really highlights to me the philosophy in which we might be thinking about building wealth.

Now, this book in particular, along with Tax Free Wealth, by Tom Wheelwright, and we’ll link to all these books in the show notes, Tax Free Wealth by Tom Wheelwright really opened my eyes to the importance of tax as a part of the financial plan, one that is kind of always behind the scenes that probably many of us are not thinking about. And more specifically, the strategies that can be employed to optimize our tax situation, right? We want to pay our fair share, but we want to pay no more. And I think through these teachings, and really digging into the form 1040 and understanding how the different components of that form work and what are the levers that we can pull to make our tax rate as efficient as possible. These two resources: Rich Dad, Poor Dad and Tax Free Wealth have really been instrumental in opening my eyes to the significance and importance of tax as a part of the financial plan.

Our number four on my list is The Millionaire Next Door by Dr. Tom Stanley. The Millionaire Next Door by Dr. Tom Stanley, and the updated version, The Next Millionaire Next Door, featuring Tom’s daughter, Dr. Sarah Stanley Fallaw which we had the pleasure of having on the podcast on episode number 200. This book examines the key behavioral traits of millionaires. One of my favorite quotes in the book is when he says, quote, “One of the reasons that millionaires are economically successful is that they think differently.” They think differently. What he’s talking about is one of my key takeaways from that book is that net worth, not income, net worth, which is your assets, what you own minus your liabilities, that really is a true indicator of your overall financial health. Net worth, not income, as the financial vitals check, is really going to help us as we think about this mindset of is our income being translated into building our assets, and paying down our debt.

Some of my other key takeaways from this book is that, you know, we often wouldn’t know who the people are that are millionaires or multimillionaires. When you look at the research that’s presented in The Millionaire Next Door, as well as the updated version and The Next Millionaire Next Door, the spending behaviors and patterns would say that they probably aren’t the people that we think are millionaires that more or portray to be millionaires. They often have a frugal mindset, doesn’t mean that they’re cheap doesn’t mean that they don’t like investing in good experiences, doesn’t mean that they’re not philanthropic or givers. But they often have a frugal mindset. They’re typically not trapped, millionaires are not trapped by what I think of as the big rocks, right? They’re not house poor, they’re not car poor. They do take calculated risks, often in business or real estate. And most millionaires, as the research suggests, in that book are self made. It’s not typically inherited money. Fascinating research and concepts. I would highly recommend The Millionaire Next Door or the updated version, if you haven’t already read it.

Alright, number five on my list is the Compound Effect by Darren Hardy. The Compound Effect by Darren Hardy. It was one of those books, it’s a quick read. It was one of those books, I remember exactly where I was when I read it. At our old house up in Northeast Ohio during the summer, I read it outside in couple hours, I couldn’t put it down. And one of those books, you’re just constantly highlighting taking notes. You’re like “Yes, yes, yes!” And this is not exclusively a personal finance book, but I love the applications here. And I was recently reflecting on those in my life that have been financially successful because I think it’s helpful to learn and grow from those who have actually done it. Right. And as people came to mind that I thought, okay, who has been long term financially successful in building wealth? Not short term success, long term, financially successful? And as I thought more about that as like, I can’t think of anyone I know who got rich off of buying whole life insurance policies, buying and altcoins are buying NFT’s. And I’m not saying that people don’t exist that have built wealth in those ways. Rather, what I’m saying is that I don’t know anyone that took this path. And I feel confident in saying the perception is much greater than the reality when it comes to these types of vehicles being a viable path to building wealth. Right? Often these are short term solutions that are bandaids when we really need to look at long term consistent behaviors.

Rather, when I think of those people that have built long term wealth, it was a long, methodical, patient journey. One intentional step after another where those decisions, and good decisions not to say there weren’t mistakes along the way, but those good decisions compounded over a long period of time. And I think, unfortunately, we’re hearing less of these journeys, right, because these aren’t great clickbait, these aren’t great in terms of social media algorithms. They’re often boring stories in the literature really supports that in the book, The Millionaire Next Door, which I just mentioned previously. And several, when I thought more about who are these people, several not all have multiple pathways of building wealth. Typically, it’s traditional investments, it might be equity in a business, it might be real estate, and those are always in balance. But I’ve noticed that as a theme, and those that have been really long term, successful in building wealth, and often being philanthropic, as a part of that wealth building. These individuals that come to mind are taking calculated risks on opportunities, where they see that the upside dramatically outweighs the downside. And they have a strong financial foundation in place such that if that calculated risk doesn’t work, they’re not going to be impacted in a significant or catastrophic way. Right, they’re able to take that calculated risk, because they have that strong base and foundation in place.

As I think of these people that come to mind, I would describe them as overall fairly conservative, yet willing, again, to take some level of risk if an opportunity presents itself. So they’re not risk averse, but they’re also not flashing. In fact, they’re quite humble. And they’re often very philanthropic. And they really do embody some of the teachings that have stayed with me from this book, The Compound Effect by Darren Hardy. He has a formula in this book that I often reference back to and that formula is small smart choices, plus consistency plus time equals radical difference. Small smart choices, plus consistency plus time equals radical difference. That is the definition of compound interest when we think about saving over a long period of time. So this is the path I will follow. This is the one that I have seen work – a path defined by working hard, taking calculated risk, investing in tax efficient, appreciating assets, building equity that can be converted to other assets, developing a habit and priority for giving and doing this over and over over a long period of time to allow those results to compound.

Our number six on my list is Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey. The Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey. Now, I’m not an avid follower of Dave Ramsey and his principles and the baby steps but I have to give credit where credit is due. Reading the Total Money Makeover going through Financial Peace University listening to Dave Ramsey’s podcast, was really like a wake up call over a decade ago that inspired the journey that Jess and I took to ultimately pay off our $200,000 of student loan debt, and really led to is the really beginning steps of the place that we are today the journey that we would take to get there. That book, The Total Money Makeover, listening to the podcast really lit a fire under me to want to learn more, right, as I mentioned, was kind of a wake up call to create our own path, our own plan. Even if we didn’t follow the path and plan that he prescribes to so many through the baby step formula. The baby steps, I will admit early in our journey, it was a grounding framework. A grounding framework for us that we needed at the time, as we were trying to balance many things. We weren’t doing any of them particularly well. And we didn’t have an intentional plan in place. And that really was the footing that we needed to get started that would ultimately allow us to build momentum, to build our emergency savings, to get out of debt, and then to have a prioritized approach to achieving our goals. So that’s number six, a Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey.

Number seven, last on my list is Happy Money, The Science of Happier Spending by Elizabeth Dunn and Michael Norton. Now, I would assume many of you have heard of all, perhaps, the first six books that I mentioned, but maybe not the case with this one. I ran across this several years ago. And I intentionally book ended my list of seven here with this one in particular because I think that it’s an important reminder that money is a tool, right? I mentioned that when I talked about Die With Zero by Bill Perkins. Money is something that affords us the opportunity to pay for our basic needs and, if we’re able, to live our rich life and to give to others. And next time you hold a bill of any value in your hand, remind yourself that it’s a piece of paper. In fact, it’s a piece of paper that I recently learned is 25%, linen, 75% cotton. But this is a piece of paper that has value because, number one, we all agree that it has value. And number two, it’s backed by the faith and credit of the US government. So what’s my point? My point is that it’s finite, right. And if we’re not careful, we can miss the boat on accruing while losing sight of the so-what. And that reminder comes I think strongly in the book, Happy Money, The Science of Happier Spending, by Elizabeth Dunn and Michael Norton.

This book provides what the research has to say, on the science of spending and the connection between money and happiness. Now, happiness,how do you define that, right? That’s an important component to consider. But my takeaways from this book were that the literature supports, to no surprise, but an important reminder, the link between happiness and money typically lies in two main areas. Number one, spending money on experiences and memories that will come from those. And number two, on giving. When you look at the connection between happy and money, this, it strongly points to giving and experiences as an important part of the financial plan. I think if you talk to anyone who’s been at this for a while, you start to see this come out again, especially as they shore up some of the basis of their financial plan. These are the areas that you typically see people light up when they talk about their financial plan. Alright, so there you have it, short and sweet, seven personal finance books that have had a profound impact on my journey and are books that I would recommend you read or reread in 2024. We’ll link to all of these books in the show note.

And if you have a book that you often recommend, or that has had a profound impact on your journey, I want to hear about it! Shoot me an email at info@your financialpharmacist.com Let me know what I left off the list. I’d love to read it and perhaps share it with our community in the future. Again, you can reach us at [email protected].

Now we all know that learning right reading books, listening to podcasts, learning is one thing, but learning and taking action with accountability is really where we start to see things happen. And that’s why we’re so excited about the work that our team at YFP Planning is doing through our fee-only, certified financial planning service. You want to learn more about what it looks like to work one-on-one with a fee only certified financial planner from Your Financial Pharmacist, yes to learn and grow in your financial IQ and knowledge, but also to take steps and implement those in your financial plan and be held accountable to achieve those results. You can book a free discovery call at YFPPlanning.com. Again, that’s YFPPlanning.com. Thanks so much for joining me on this week’s episode. And we’ll be back next week. Have a great rest of your day.

[DISCLAIMER]

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit YourFinancialPharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 343: Getting Ready for Tax Season with Sean Richards, CPA

Posted on January 25, 2024January 24, 2024 by YFP Media

Tim Ulbrich and Sean Richards, CPA, discuss the tax preparations listeners should be considering ahead of the 2023 filing.

Episode Summary

In this episode, Tim Ulbrich and Director of YFP Tax, Sean Richards, CPA, discuss the tax preparations listeners should be considering ahead of tax season and the 2023 filing. Whether you DIY your taxes or work with a professional, there are documents that need to be on hand to file your taxes. Sean shares essential tax moves for the year, emphasizing the significance of being proactive for the 2024 tax season. Sean also discusses the value of a year-round approach to taxes and the in-house services by episode sponsor, YFP Tax, showcasing the value of personalized, holistic tax planning.

About Today’s Guests

Sean Richards, CPA, received his undergraduate degree in Corporate Finance and Accounting, as well as his Master of Accountancy, from Bentley University in Waltham, MA. Sean has been a Certified Public Accountant (CPA) since 2015 and is currently pursuing his Enrolled Agent certification. Prior to joining the YFP team, Sean was the Senior Treasury Manager at PRA Group, a global debt buyer based in Norfolk, VA. He began his career at American Tower Corporation where, over 10 years, he held several positions in audit, treasury and accounting. As the Director of YFP Tax, Sean focuses on broadening the company’s existing tax planning and preparation operations, as well as developing and launching new accounting offerings, including bookkeeping, payroll, and fractional CFO services.

Key Points from the Episode

Tax preparation for 2023 with a CPA. [0:00]
Tax moves for 2023 and preparation for 2024. [1:11]
Tax planning and preparation strategies for individuals and businesses. [8:56]
Tax season preparation and changes. [13:59]
Tax planning and goal setting for next year. [16:56]
Comprehensive tax planning and year-round approach to taxes. [22:25]
Year-round tax planning and personalized service. [27:24]

Episode Highlights

“And the big thing I’ll say about extensions is that the one of the things I’ve been noticing over the past few years is that there’s just this stigma about extensions, and how you know, a lot of people have never done it before. And it seems like it’s only something you can do if your situation is complicated. And it’s only something you can do if you are working with a professional and they need to do all the work for you and everything. But really extensions just give you and give your preparer more time to get things figured out, make sure that you are taking advantage of all your deductions and credits and everything.” – Sean Richards, CPA

“As Tim Baker would say, when it comes to extensions, right over rushed right over rush, right.” – Tim Ulbrich

“Yeah, I would be, you know, thinking about your own kind of general financial goals and then try to think about as you’re going through this whole tax filing process, how does your tax situation align with those goals?” – Sean Richards, CPA

“With comprehensive tax planning, is just looking at your taxes kind of throughout the course of the year like I’ve been alluding to throughout this whole conversation. And one big thing there is will be kind of what you were just saying that filing taxes. It’s not always really the finish line and might also be the starting point for somebody else.” – Sean Richards, CPA

“But with holistic plan, you have your tax return that you start with whatever is etched in stone sent to the government. And then from there, you’re able to sort of do whatever with testing out different types of scenarios and projections and looking at, hey, let’s take a look at our paychecks year to date, let’s see where are withholdings are at, let’s see what we expect our side income to be and our rental income. And oh, we’re going to have a kid this year congrats and, oh, we’re buying a house, let’s see how all these things play into our tax situation in the middle of the year.” – Sean Richards, CPA

“So there’s just so many different opportunities to, you know, maximize your efficiencies with your taxes, you know, take advantage of all the things that are out there. And if you don’t have a year round kind of approach to it, and you’re not looking at it in a cyclical kind of way, you’ll miss those things, you’ll come to filing, and you’ll be kicking yourself saying, let’s do it better this year, let’s do it better this year.” – Sean Richards, CPA

“So the name of the game with those is energies. Definitely still the big biggest thing. Energy efficiency, green initiatives. So people typically immediately think of EVs. I mean, that’s that’s a great example. And that’s one where the credits are sort of just getting better every year, there’s, more available to you” -Sean Richards, CPA

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week YFP Director of Tax and CPA Sean Richards joins the show to discuss getting ready for the 2023 taxes. Yes, it’s that time of year tax season is officially upon us. And you probably started to receive various tax forms in the mail that are piling up if you haven’t already done so now is the perfect time to switch gears and start getting ready for the 2023 taxes. If you aren’t sure where to start, we’ve got you covered with a free checklist to help you along the way. In this free checklist we cover three final tax moves that you can make for the 2023 tax year, four ways to start prepping for tax season, and three key items that you can be doing now to plan ahead for this tax year and beyond. If you’re ready to take action and set the stage for a successful 2023 taxes, you can download this free checklist at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/taxchecklist. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/taxchecklist.

Tim Ulbrich 01:09

Sean, welcome back to the show.

Sean Richards 01:10

Thanks. Thanks for having me. And thanks for allowing me the chance to get on here before I disappeared. And hopefully I can spread some knowledge to folks again before I kind of go into my hole for the for the spring and start getting into the fun stuff that I live for.

Tim Ulbrich 01:26

Tis the season, hard to believe here we are and end of January thinking ahead to tax season. And we’re really excited about the work that you and the tax team are doing. We’ll get into that as we get towards the end of the episode. But we want to use this time of the year really as an opportunity to make sure that our community, our listeners are focused as early as they can on getting prepared for the tax season, whether they’re hiring a pro, like YFP tax, whether this is a DIY type of solution. You know, this is the season where we start to see those forms showing up in the mail, we put them aside on the desk. And then we want to do everything that we can to get ready. So we’re going to talk about in this episode, Sean, some some final tax moves that folks can make here. Even though we’re in 2024. We’re doing the 2023 filings. So some final moves that they can make. We’ll talk about getting ready for the tax season, how they can be prepared to make sure that the filing goes as smooth as possible. And then we’re to start the conversation about – as we’ve highlighted many times before on the show – we want to be as proactive as possible. So how can we be thinking ahead to the 2024 tax filing here in the beginning of the year, again with that proactive strategic approach. So before we jump into the meat of each of those sections of the podcast, Sean, just remind us of the deadlines. I think folks are probably familiar overall. But you know, we see more people in our community extending. So I think it’s worth talking about that as well. What are the deadlines that folks need to be thinking about this time of year as it relates to tax?

Sean Richards 03:01

Yeah, I mean, the big deadline that people typically are familiar with his tax day, and that’s usually April 15, which is this year, sometimes it falls on holidays, or, in fact, sometimes I’m from Massachusetts, and it often falls on a Massachusetts specific holiday. So we get a little bit of an extra push there that other states didn’t get but not not afforded to that anymore. But that mid-April date is typically the the regular sort of Tax Day date for regular individual filers, assuming that there’s no extension that’s filed. And the big thing I’ll say about extensions is that the one of the things I’ve been noticing over the past few years is that there’s just this stigma about extensions, and how you know, a lot of people have never done it before. And it seems like it’s only something you can do if your situation is complicated. And it’s only something you can do if you are working with a professional and they need to do all the work for you and everything. But really extensions just give you and give your preparer more time to get things figured out, make sure that you are taking advantage of all your deductions and credits and everything. And that bumps your regular tax deadline from April all the way to October. It’s six months. And it’s a guaranteed thing, basically. I mean, almost every state falls the Fed. And if you do the extension with the Fed, it’s guaranteed as long as you make a payment against any, you know, expected bills you’re gonna have. It’s just it’s worth doing. We do it for all of our clients proactively. That’s something we’ve been rolling out over the past couple years is just getting ahead of that, get it filed. And that way you don’t have to worry about it. You know, you can take your time figuring out if you think you’re going to owe any money, make an estimated payment, and then spend however much time you need to just dot all the i’s and cross the T’s and get everything figured out. You know, it’s what we see a lot of folks doing nowadays, it’s the way the industry is heading. So those are the two big individual deadlines. And if you’re a business owner and you actually have to file a business return, basically shift that up a month. Yeah. On March 15, and September, if you extend out.

Tim Ulbrich 05:03

As Tim Baker would say, when it comes to extensions, right over rushed. Right over rush, right. So I think when we look at tax season, you know, there’s a lot of work crammed in a short period of time, and we want to make sure that we’re doing it right. And that we’re, you know, optimizing the tax situation the best that we can. So let’s jump into the first section, first part of our discussion, which is some final 2023 tax moves that our listeners could make may or may not make sense, obviously, depending on their individual plan. So Sean, even though we’re in 2024, calendar year, there are some actions that can still be taken for the 2023 tax season. What are those key ones that our listeners should be thinking about?

Sean Richards 05:47

Yeah, and it’s one of those things that you always want to try to be doing things in the calendar year if you possibly can. But there are things that you aren’t going to be able to do by the end of the year. You know, some of these things with retirement contributions and stuff, you’re gonna want to know what your AGI is, or what you expect it to be. Or you might have to find out kind of what kind of cash flow you have available for yourself to make some of these different types of contributions and things. But right, so the IRS actually does allow some actions to be done after the tax season, when typically, if you’re a cash basis, taxpayer, it’s sort of whenever you get that cash, that’s the year that it happens. And so the big ones are retirement contributions, IRAs, specifically, those go out to your your regular deadline. So typically, it’s going to be April 15. For folks, the one I’ll mention there is that aside, for some exceptions, with some solo plans, 401K’s that’s typically a year end kind of thing. So if you didn’t max out on that, you probably don’t have much of an opportunity there. But again, you do have the opportunity to contribute to an IRA. So that’s something to look into. And I mentioned a solo 401K, but if you’re doing anything like that, or a sep IRA, those actually can be extended out if you have an extension. So another reason to file that extension, by yourself six more months to figure out where you’re gonna land, what kind of cash you have available to make a contribution towards something like that. And then the other big one is HSAs, very similar IRAs, it’s it goes to your your April deadline. So if you didn’t hit your max, or if your company contributed, but you still have some room to hit the max there, definitely tried to hit that that the HSA, I say it all the time, but it’s one of the few things that has the triple tax benefit of tax free contributions, tax free distributions, and tax free growth. So big one there. And then the other one is it. So it’s a little bit more, I don’t want to say complicated, but it’s, you know, not typically something that folks that are just having a regular kind of basic W2 job experience. But I was alluding to it before when I mentioned extensions, and that’s making estimated tax payments. So if you’re on a quarterly cadence where you know, your withholdings aren’t covering off on your tax bill, at the end of the year, whether you have side gigs, or it’s by design, you should be making estimated payments, those actually would have been due on the 15th of January. So hopefully, if anybody’s listening in, they’re supposed to make q4 payments and didn’t this will be a little reminder to go do that. But the other thing to keep in mind there is that even if you’re not making estimated payments, if you’re expected to have a balance due in April, you’ll want to make a payment against that before that date. So even if you do extend out, you know, get a rough number, do the math say hey, I think I’m going to owe approximately $1,000 make that payment now or any time between now and April. And then like I said, take the time, get your return figured out maybe that 1000 becomes 800. And you get to 200 of it back or, you know, you just buys you that time to really get things figured out. But you have the ability to make payments early anytime now for the 2023 season.

Tim Ulbrich 08:56

Yeah, and I think it’s really important. You know, for those that have been at this for a while they’re they’re probably well plugged into, hey, I can make IRA contributions after the first of the year, right before the deadline. I can make HSA contributions, but especially for, you know, our listeners that are relatively new at filing their own taxes or working with someone they may think which would be common sense that hey, calendar year is over. Therefore, opportunity’s gone. And as you’ve highlighted, that simply isn’t the case. And Sean, I also want to put a plug in when it comes to estimated tax payments -you mentioned this being a little bit more nuanced – and I think especially for those that have some more complicated tax situations, we’ll come back to this at the end. You can feel overwhelming in terms of you know, how do I determine that what’s the amount am I doing that correctly? What what changes are happening? And so I think this is a spot we’re really working with. Someone can be really valuable to feel comfortable and confident that you’re making those estimated tax payments. Yeah, in the correct way.

Sean Richards 09:50

We send out reminders to everybody that’s on that cadence and it might as well just be a reminder back to me because you know, all of our clients basically just say, I pay But we have the tools to go in and just you know, we have that number already figured out ahead of time. Usually it’s a little back and forth of hey, yeah, everything’s still the same, business still doing the same, you know, any changes on things, and we update our projections and get those numbers. But yeah, if you ever if you expect a big tax bill, or really have any kind of income, that you don’t have withholding for, that’s something you really should be thinking about. And if not working with a professional, at least having a plan to know what that number is going to be for yourself.

Tim Ulbrich 10:26

I get that email too from you, Sean. And then I say, hey, Sean, well, why don’t What is that supposed to be? So….

Sean Richards 10:31

I always push back a little bit to Hey, Tim, tell me about this.

Tim Ulbrich 10:34

Yeah, that’s right.

Sean Richards 10:35

He’s telling me to go check the books, so we go back and forth.

Tim Ulbrich 10:39

Awesome. So that’s the first part we want to talk about is making sure that we use this window of time right to make any of these 2023 tax moves before we file. The second part is getting ready preparing for the 2023 tax season. So Sean, we preach and teach proactive tax planning. And we’ll talk about that here shortly. Most of the focus this time of year is getting ready to file for the previous year. What are some things that our listeners can be doing should be doing to get organized, and be prepared for filing, whether they’re doing it themselves, or again, they’re hiring a tax professional.

Sean Richards 11:15

Yeah, whether you’re doing it yourself or hiring a tax professional, you’re gonna need to gather the documentation and either have it for yourself or give it to somebody. So that’s the big name of the game right now. So knowing when you’re going to get things, you know, a lot of that is you’re sort of at the mercy of whatever businesses you’re working with. So if it’s a bank, and you have interest income, there’ll be sending out 1099s. If you work for a company, and you get a paycheck, there’ll be sending W2s, the deadline for most of those is January 31. So folks are probably starting to get them in the mail now, if they have a little bit more proactive payroll companies. 1099, typically, they’re due on the 31st are most of them are and you’ll see those right around the 31st. Because those are a little harder to get out. But there’s other things that you can be gathering now to that may not actually have sort of deadlines that are going to be issued by a company, but things that you can pull together yourself. So if you have a rental property, you know, have you been taking income and expenses and have all that stuff figured out? Or if you work with a property management company? Do you know how you can go get that? Do you have a side business? Have you been tracking income and expenses there, you know, if you bought a house or sold a house this year, you’ll probably have the closing documentation and everything and that stuff that you’ll need or again, your accountant will need. So one good way to start is to just look at what you did last year and kind of figure hey, I needed all these things last year, I’ll probably need those again. And then think what did I had as a change this year? And you know, what could that possibly bring up? Having a system in place is great, you know, if you’re a client of ours, we have a tax questionnaire that I’m sure listeners are rolling their eyes saying, Oh, no, not again this year, though. I do promise it’s a lot prettier than it has been in the past. I’m really excited about some of the changes we’ve made there. But you know, it really guides folks through Hey, did you have this happen? Did you have this happen? Things that you might not think about. Hey, Oh, I did. I forgot I sold that stock in January of 2023. Right, of course. So just kind of understanding what situations you had in your tax life for the year, what forms may or may not be needed from that. And then when you’re going to be getting them and who you’re going to be getting them from. And sometimes it’s not even things that you’re going to be getting right now. Like I mentioned, if you have a business and your partner with that a business or an S corp or something, you might not get your K1 until September 15 when that extensions due. So there’s a lot of things for planning purposes, you know, if you know that you are a shareholder of a business, you’re going to want to file that extension now because there’s a good chance you’re not getting that until the summertime or something like that. So it’s a lot to think about. It might be overwhelming for folks. That’s why it’s you know, really good to have a system or work with a professional. But starting with last year is always a good place to start.

Tim Ulbrich 13:58

Yeah. And I found that to be really helpful. I use a combination of what you said. So I have a Google Drive, you know, folder for personal, for business, and I separate it by year. And then as those forms come in, you know, I’m scanning them, I’m dumping them into a folder just to kind of get them out of my mental space. And then exactly what he said, right, so I’m going through the tax questionnaire, which is super helpful to not only, you know, remind me of, okay, what were the forms last year that maybe I haven’t yet gotten or, you know, whatever, I need to look into that further. And then also asking those questions of are there new things that happen this year, and things that I need to be nudged and reminded of that might not have been represented in the documentation from the previous year? So I think a combination of the factors that you said, but that questionnaire I really like because that’s kind of the force point of are not only answering the questions, but then that’s the cue to upload all my tax forms and make sure that we have every documentation that’s needed, according to the questions that are being asked.

Sean Richards 14:59

Yeah, and like I said people are probably rolling their eyes. And I don’t mean that because the questionnaire itself is bad. It’s more that people are probably thinking, Oh, no, I have to gather those documents again. But unfortunately, everybody has to do that regardless. So you might as well have something that’s going to guide you through and remind you. It’s nice because like I said, our system is battle tested, we’ve had it for years now. You can put things in and save it and come back. So if you say, Ah, right, I forgot I had that transaction in January of 23. I mean, we’re already a year past that, when you’re filing, we might be a year and a half past. So it’s always good to have that little reminder to go back and get things.

Tim Ulbrich 15:36

As we’re talking about getting ready for the tax season. And the filing that’s coming up whether you know, that’s going to be the standard date or an extension. You know, the other thought I have here, Sean, is what new tax changes have been happening that folks, maybe or maybe not plugged into. And I feel like in years gone by, there’s been a lot more activity than than there was this past year. But talk us through some of the things that you’re seeing with our clients that our listeners might want to be tuned into.

Sean Richards 16:04

Yeah, I would say ’23 wasn’t the craziest year. I mean, it could just be with the election kind of coming up, maybe a lot of waves didn’t want to be made. But it also obviously comes down to Congress having to get things passed and making it through all of the checks and balances in the system. So we did have a lot of changes with the Inflation Reduction Act a couple of years ago that are kind of starting to roll out over the course of time. So I’d say that those were probably the biggest, year over year changes as far as actual real changes of like, Hey, this is a new creditor, this is a completely extended credit that used to, you know, phase out at $500. And now it’s 30%. with with no limits. So the name of the game with those is energies. Definitely still the big biggest thing. Energy efficiency, green initiatives. So people typically immediately think of EVs. I mean, that’s that’s a great example. And that’s one where the credits are sort of just getting better every year, there’s, more available to you. But even things that folks might not be thinking of. So if you had worked done on your house, there’s a pretty good chance that whatever you did was considered energy efficient by the powers that be and may qualify for at least some type of credit. So it’s worth at least thinking about, hey, I did this project, I replaced a window or I, you know, did some roof work or something like that, even just to ask the question of, Hey, can I get something for this? Worst case scenarios the answer is no. But you know, maybe next year or something. Aside from that, like I said, there weren’t a whole lot of crazy changes, there was a lot of increases across the board, just due to inflation with things like the standard deduction, and all of the kind of income brackets and everything. That’s not, you know, unusual, but it was a little bit more than it has been in the past, just given some of that inflation. And then there’s some new reporting requirements that know people are definitely getting fired up about. 1099k is a big one that gets thrown around a lot. So that’s with third party processors, if you work with like, Venmo, and things like that, and it scares people, because the question I get a lot is, hey, I, you know, send my dad 50 bucks every month for my cell phone bill, am I is he gonna get a 1099 at the end of the year for something like that? And the answer is probably not. The idea behind that is that third party payment providers, credit cards, Venmo, things like that are supposed to be identifying business transactions, because you know, you have that little button, you can click if you’re in Venmo, this is a business or purchase. And it gives you the insurance and everything, but it’s more intended for things like that. That’s not to say that you may get a 1099. Or it might come out of something like that, if you did give your family member $6,000 for something over the year. But that doesn’t also necessarily mean that it’s going to be income to that person. It’s just the company letting the government know, hey, this is the money that moved between these people. So a lot of things are getting thrown around. And you know, companies are trying to get people excited. So they’ll, you know, listen to their services and things like that. But I don’t want folks to be scared about these things. But definitely, you know, be inquisitive, ask your accountant, ask whoever you’re working with, hey, does this apply to me or you get something in the mail, ask them about it or you know, run it by somebody, don’t just say, Hey, I don’t think this applies to me. I’m not going to worry about it and deal with it later.

Tim Ulbrich 19:26

So thus far, Sean, everything we’ve talked about is really for the upcoming filing, again, whether that’s April or whether there’s an extension in October, so let’s shift gears to talk about thinking ahead to next year. So the 2024 tax filing. And again, even though we haven’t yet filed for 2023, we’re making decisions right now that are going to impact that filing. So we want to be thinking and planning as proactively as possible. And this is a great time of year to be doing it. So what are some of the areas, Sean, that folks should be thinking about here for next year’s filing in 2024.

Sean Richards 20:00

Yeah, I would be, you know, thinking about your own kind of general financial goals and then try to think about as you’re going through this whole tax filing process, how does your tax situation align with those goals? Or does it and if it doesn’t, should it and can we kind of shift it that way. So it could be something of, hey, I really want to pay off my student loans this year, that’s my my number one thing is that that’s what I want to do. So you might be more inclined to, you know, get more money in your paycheck in a particular year, in order to take that money and pay it against your debt, versus somebody who’s saying, hey, my number one goal by far is to lower my taxable income. And if that’s the case, you know, you don’t care about having your student loans paid off, or maybe you don’t have student loans, you just want your taxable income as low as possible. So we’re gonna max out 401K, we’re gonna max out HSAs or kind of, you know, do any of those types of things. So this is the time to really figure that out. Set goals for your tax situation that apply to your financial situation and overall strategy and also kind of come out of your tax return. Did you do your tax return and say, Oh, crap, I have a huge bill this year, I don’t, I don’t want that to happen. Or vice versa, oh, my goodness, I am getting a huge refund, I certainly could use that $1,000 a month back over the course of the year. This is the best time to identify those types of things and set those goals. And then from there, you can start to make changes, you can you know, if your goal is to not have a big tax bill at the end of the year, you can adjust your withholdings now and have 12 or 11 months of that to take effect. And by the end of the year, you’ll probably be in a good place. Or again, if you want to get more cash back to pay off your student loans, you can adjust your 401k or vice versa you want to lower your taxable income as much as absolutely possible, max out 401k. And now you have 11 months of that to go through. So it just a really good time to kind of get those goals set in place. Think about how you’re going to get there work with somebody who will build out a roadmap to get you there. And then just start checking in throughout the course of the year. It’s one of those things that once you file your taxes, I know everybody wants to say that they’re done. And it certainly is something you should celebrate. But it doesn’t mean that you should put it aside and not think of it till next year. Get those goals figured out now. And then, you know, constantly check in and make sure that you’re still on track.

Tim Ulbrich 22:25

Yeah, I like to think and we’ll talk about this with the services, we offer at YFP Tax. But I like to think about the filing is really the start line and not the finish line. Right. And, you know, as we talked about, in the very first section of this episode, there are some things that are calendar year deadlines, right? So we want to make sure that we’re taking advantage of those here in 2024. If it’s suitable for your plan, so that we’re not chasing it, you know, a year later, right, we’re able to really take advantage. And I think, as you mentioned, and highlighted well: it all starts with their goals. And this is why I’m so excited about the combination that we have of CFP and a CPA. When when you’re doing financial planning, and you’re doing that one on one and you have a CPA in your corner. That combination is really powerful as we can look across the financial planning and the strategy there, and then make sure we’re doing it in as tax efficient manner as possible. And just as a reminder, as I mentioned at the intro of the episode, we’ve got a checklist to kind of help guide you some of the things that we’ve been talking about, you can get a copy of that free checklist at your financialpharmacist.com/taxchecklist. And we’ll link to that, again in the show notes. Sean, let’s shift gears as we wrap up and talk about what we do at YFP Tax. Why we do it. By we I mean you! The philosophy, the philosophy, the philosophy behind this service and I think it’s it’s such a good thread to what we’ve been talking about. Yes, we’ve got work to do. We’ve got to file the IRS says we have to do but we also want to be thinking ahead and thinking proactively so we’re really excited. We’re now more than a year in of the shift we’ve made to offering comprehensive tax planning what we call CTP in-house. Tell our listeners, what is comprehensive tax planning and what does that offering look like at YFP Tax.

Sean Richards 24:16

Yeah, I’m excited too. It’s been you know about a year like you said of kind of having this as the flagship offering that we have on the tax side and it you know, I love where it where it’s been and where it is now and I love even more where we’re planning on taking it this year. But yeah, comprehensive tax planning, is just looking at your taxes kind of throughout the course of the year like I’ve been alluding to throughout this whole conversation. And one big thing there is will be kind of what you were just saying that filing taxes. It’s not always really the finish line and might also be the starting point for somebody else. It also is you know, could be the sort of middle of the year depending on what you have going on. Not everybody is on this exactly perfect cyclical cycle of hey Q1 of the year, which is this January, February, March, I’m going to be doing my full tax filings. And then mid year I’m going to be, you know, everybody, depending on what you have going on might be at different points in their individual tax cycle at any kind of point in the year. If you’re a business owner, you might not be filing your taxes until September, October. And then you know, you can’t be thinking about filing at this time of year when you’re going to be six months away from it. So comprehensive tax planning is really just having kind of a year round approach to your taxes and really catered to what you have going on. So again, where you’re at in the year, if it’s if it’s tax filing season, that’s what we’re focused on. If it’s more of that, you know, six months away from tax filing, we’re doing what we call tax projection. So we use a tool called holistic plan that we really use for our end to end tax process, which is amazing to have it all kind of in one place that we can carry over year after year. But with holistic plan, you have your tax return that you start with whatever is etched in stone sent to the government. And then from there, you’re able to sort of do whatever with testing out different types of scenarios and projections and looking at, hey, let’s take a look at our paychecks year to date, let’s see where are withholdings are at, let’s see what we expect our side income to be and our rental income. And oh, we’re going to have a kid this year congrats and, oh, we’re buying a house, let’s see how all these things play into our tax situation in the middle of the year. So we don’t come to whenever we file and say, Ooh, you know, I covered off on 75% of my stuff. But I kind of forgot about this whole other 25% here. So like I said, I love the projection process, I’m really excited to get into returns now and see exactly how accurate we were with them. And, you know, areas for improvement too. And not necessarily that we might have made mistakes or anything but looking at, hey, last year, we were really focused on the side income, but you know, you had more of an opportunity to be putting money toward your 401k and your W2 job that you had on the side there. So there’s just so many different opportunities to, you know, maximize your efficiencies with your taxes, you know, take advantage of all the things that are out there. And if you don’t have a year round kind of approach to it, and you’re not looking at it in a cyclical kind of way, you’ll miss those things, you’ll come to filing, and you’ll be kicking yourself saying, let’s do it better this year, let’s do it better this year.

Tim Ulbrich 27:24

I think he’s you articulated so well. We’ve really designed the service to match the philosophy we have right, which is tax is not one and done. It’s something we need to be thinking about throughout the year to really optimize this part of the financial plan the best that we can and I think the service does that incredibly well. And we do recognize Sean, that CTP comprehensive tax plan. We recognize that it’s not for everyone, right. So you know someone who is listening that, you know, is single, they’ve got one W two income, that withholdings are clean set correctly, there’s not a whole lot of changes, they probably aren’t in need at least yet. In terms of year round tax planning service. So with that in mind, who are you seeing with the clients that you’re working with YFP Tax that are getting the most value out of this year round service?

Sean Richards 28:11

I would say overall, you know, if you have a kind of a basic situation, that’s not typically the client that we’re seeing coming on and getting the most value out of it. That’s not to say that we don’t have plenty of people who want comprehensive tax planning, just to be able to say, hey, I don’t want to think about it. I just want someone’s hand on the wheel. And I want someone to take a look at my paycheck at the middle of the year and say, Hey, we’re still on track to have a $0 balance. And you know, we’re all good thumbs up and everything. There’s plenty of those. But I will say that the majority of folks are probably those who have slightly more of a complex tax situation or more of a complicated tax history or a little bit of both. So complicated tax history, think of things like big refunds or big bills, like I mentioned before, like, Oh, crap, you know, I’ve had a couple of years where I had big surprises that I wasn’t happy about, or I had that side gig and I completely forgot about that little thing called self employment tax, things like that. And then, you know, more complicated things. So real estate investors, tons of our clients have real estate, and there’s lots of opportunities to take advantage of tax laws there. And I don’t mean take advantage in in a shifty kind of way. There’s just so many different opportunities available to real estate investors out there. Folks with student loans, that’s obviously huge in the pharmacy space, stock purchase programs in restricted stock units. Another thing that’s huge in the pharmacy space, especially with our friends in the industry. So you know, those are definitely the biggest and then of course side hustlers and side gigs and stuff. But you know, I would definitely say that those are probably the biggest areas where we see people kind of proactively looking for that assistance. And like I said, just because your situation is uncomplicated doesn’t mean that you can’t benefit from having that year round look at it or if you anticipate it’s going to get more difficult getting ahead of that now, as opposed to, again, having that revisionist history and saying, Ooh, let’s hopefully not have that happen again, you know, to any extent you can get ahead of those things, it’s always a good thing in my mind.

Tim Ulbrich 30:14

Great stuff. And for those that want to learn more and determine, hey, is this a good fit for me, now is the time, right? So here in a little bit, we’re going to kind of shut down the doors and say, we’ve got to focus on really serving those clients well, so if you’re interested in learning more to determine, you know, for this year and beyond, can wifey tax add value to your tax situation, you can simply just go to YFPtax.com. From there, you’ll see an option to learn more and book a free discovery call that call will be with Tim Baker. And from there we can determine what the path is. That makes sense. And you know, Sean, just to be clear, you know, there are folks, as you mentioned, that might have some more straightforward situations, but want to know that someone has a hand on the wheel and want to know that they have someone in their corner year round, and that’s okay. But we aren’t and we’re not shy about it, we’re not trying to compete with big box solutions that are, you know, running commercials these days. 24/7 for, you know, free returns, right, very different apples and oranges, in terms of the level of service, the year round nature of it. And what we believe is, is really high touch as well. So again, learn more yfptax.com, you can book a discovery call, and we’d love to have the opportunity to discuss further. Sean, thanks so much. We’ll see you back in the spring perhaps when you’ve come out of hibernation well, not hibernation, because you’ll be working hard.

Sean Richards 31:30

It’s the opposite of hibernation. I’m not quite sure what the opposite exercise to that is. Yeah, yeah, hopefully I will emerge and not see my shadow or however that works. I will, I’ll see you in a couple months.

Tim Ulbrich 31:42

Awesome. And at that point, we’ll recap some of the things that you’ve probably been seeing throughout tax season and how people can be thinking again more proactively and strategically ahead. So thanks so much, and we’ll catch up later.

Sean Richards 31:53

Sounds good. Thanks, Tim.

Tim Ulbrich 31:56

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on podcasts, opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the date published. Such information may contain forward looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 342: Replay – How Two Pharmacists Paid Off $250k of Student Loan Debt

Posted on January 18, 2024January 18, 2024 by YFP Media

Kristen & Nate Hedrick share their journey paying off $250k student loan debt from the motivation to the role of side hustles and real estate investing.

Episode Summary

How do you go about aggressively paying off a $250,000 student loan debt without feeling overwhelmed? To help answer that question, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, is joined by fellow pharmacists Nate Hedrick, PharmD, and Kristen Hedrick, PharmD, BCACP. The Hedricks tell us how they successfully paid off over $250,000 in student loan debt, their motivation for tackling that debt, the pivotal moment that sparked making repayment a priority, and the role a side hustle and real estate investing played in their journey. After a brief history of Kristen’s background, listeners will hear what motivated the couple to take an aggressive stance on their debt repayments, how a life-changing event and one book altered their financial philosophy, and how the pandemic helped them focus on their strategy. Nate and Kristen share their reasons behind paying their debt off now instead of putting their money toward investments and how they found an additional $3,443 per month to make their goal attainable by reducing expenses and increasing their income. This earnest conversation takes us through the possibilities of working full time, raising a family, making investments, and paying off a huge debt, all at the same time. Nate and Kristen talk about their life after paying off this debt and share some advice for pharmacists who may be struggling with a similar debt situation.

About Today’s Guests

Nate and Kristen Hedrick met at Ohio Northern University and were married in 2013. Nate is a pharmacist with Medical Mutual and a real estate agent with Berkshire Hathaway. Kristen is a pharmacist with Bon Secour Mercy Health. Together, they graduated with over $300,000+ in student loan debt. They enjoy visiting National Parks as a family. Today they live in the suburbs of Cleveland, Ohio, with their two daughters, Molly and Lucy, and their rescue dog Lexi.

Key Points from the Episode

Kristen’s background, how she ended up in pharmacy, and what she’s doing now.
What their student loan debt looked like at its peak.
How student debt can creep up and surprise you.
The initial feelings the couple had towards their debt and their plans to pay it off.
What motivated our guests to come up with an aggressive plan for paying back their debt.
How a life-changing event (and a book) in 2016 changed everything.
The global pandemic as a moment of inspiration.
What they had to change in their lives to be able to make the monthly repayments.
Paying off debt now versus investing for the future.
The way the couple used ‘double motivation’ to reconcile an age-old debate.
How our guests were able to raise a child, invest, and pay off a huge debt at the same time.
Nate’s decision to pursue real estate investing and what that meant for their debt repayments.
The approach the couple has taken to make real estate investing work for their family.
Other strategies that helped to pay off the debt aside from cutting expenses and real estate investments.
The benefits of receiving objective, third-party advice.
What life is like now after paying off their massive debt.
How paying off the debt helped Nate make an important career decision.
Kristen’s advice for the pharmacist struggling with debt.
Nate’s parting words of wisdom.

Episode Highlights

“That was the worst that it got and, that same month, for what it’s worth, we had a negative net worth of $306,000. We had about 10k to our name and a bunch of debt to add on to that.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:03:44]

“I had no plan early on until we developed the ‘why’, which was getting our financial house in order so that we could live the way that we wanted to.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:06:23]

“The expenses were the catalyst, and then it was the extra income side of the equation that really boosted everything to actually make it possible.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:13:37]

“Spending more time with the kids without having that student loan debt, and being able to do more things and travel more, it feels like it’s definitely paying off in the end, with making some of those sacrifices.” — Kristen Hedrick, PharmD, BCACP [0:17:16]

“One great thing about real estate investing is even if something happens, you still own a building.” — Kristen Hedrick, PharmD, BCACP [0:22:00]

“Find something that is going to supplement your life that the more effort you put into it, the more reward you get out of it. That is a really great way to set yourself up for success.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:29:32]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here. Thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Kristen and Nate Hedrick to discuss their journey of paying off $250,000 of student loan debt. In this show, we discuss their motivation and why, for aggressively paying down the debt. What the pivot moment was that motivated them to make the debt repayment a priority, how they were able to come up with more than $3,000 per month extra to throw towards the loans, and the role a side hustle and real estate investing played in helping them pay down the debt.

Before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers free only, high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional.

If you’re interested in learning more about working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Nate and Kristen Hedrick to learn how and why they aggressively paid off $250,000 in student loan debt.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:23.4] TU: Kristen and Nate, welcomed to the show.

[0:01:24.7] NH: Hey Tim, good to be here.

[0:01:26.1] KH: Hi.

[0:01:27.0] TU: So Nate, obviously, you’re a frequent flyer. You’re old news so I’m not even going to spend a whole lot of time focusing on you. Many folks have heard you on the podcast before, whether it’s this show, talking about home buying, whether it’s the Real Estate Investing podcast on Saturday mornings, of course, Nate being the cohost of that show.

So, we’re going to focus a little bit more on Kristen’s background as we get started, and we’re going to jump into more about your debt-free journey and how ultimately, you guys were able to knock out $250,000 of debt, and what that has meant to you guys personally, to your family, as well as also the financial goals and plan that you have going forward.

So, before we jump into that debt payoff and that journey, Kristen, let’s start with you. Tell us a little bit more about your background, what drew you into pharmacy, where you went to school and the work that you’re doing now.

[0:02:13.0] KH: Yeah, thanks. I had some extended family members in pharmacy so I just thought it would be a good career path, and looked at the different pharmacy schools and found my way to Ohio Northern in the middle of cornfields, and no cellphone reception and for some reason, that’s where I wanted to go. I think we all know it’s a great campus and community there.

So went to Ohio Northern and that’s where Nate and I met. I completed my residency here in Cleveland, Ohio. Now I work for a large health system doing population health on clinical pharmacy, and following patients with their chronic disease states and helping them with their medicines, and helping in here in Cleveland.

[0:02:50.8] TU: Kristen, it’s funny you mentioned the cellphone reception in Ada Ohio, Ohio Northern University. I remember, I maybe as a P3, P4, just a few years ahead of you guys, but it was a big deal that they added a tower on campus, and I think we got one bar, maybe two bars, but not a whole lot going on in Ada Ohio. I had the chance to go back recently and take Jess and the boys. It was so fun to see campus and really relive some of the memories in that place.

So Nate, tell us about the student loan debt at its peak? What were you guys working with and then, from there, we’ll get into more of some of the motivation and journey of paying it off.

[0:03:26.4] NH: Yeah. So, when we graduated and totaled everything up and, I think it was even a month or two after we graduated that I even wanted to look at it. Because it was the initial plan of, “I just won’t look at it and then it won’t be a problem.” And when we totaled it all up, looking back at our highest count, we were at $316,000 in student loan debt at one point.

So, that was the worst that it got and, that same month, for what it’s worth, we had a negative net worth of $306,000, so we had about 10k to our name and a bunch of debt to add on to that.

[0:03:54.8] TU: I’m curious, did that surprise you guys? One of the stories I often share is that, it’s somewhat embarrassing, but when I was in pharmacy school, it felt a little bit like monopoly money, and it was all of a sudden when I crunch the numbers and I was like, “I owe how much, and how much interest, and what’s my net worth?” It just caught me off-guard, and it shouldn’t have. Were you expecting that or was that number somewhat a surprise at that point?

[0:04:15.4] NH: I agree, it was just totally like made up funds, you know? Every quarter or every semester, I’d have to go and submit for what I needed, and it was the tuition plus a little bit of living expenses, and I would just submit for it and it would get added into this imaginary pile of money somewhere, and I don’t think I ever checked the balance while I was in school, I don’t know why, I don’t know why I would have.

[0:04:35.7] TU: You’re dating yourself Nate, when you talk about quarters by the way. So that ain’t a thing anymore.

[0:04:40.7] NH: Old school, how I work.

[0:04:42.7] TU: Kristen, tell us about the plan that you guys had for the student loans after graduation, after you got married in 2013. How did you feel about the debt overall and then, what was the thought in that moment about how are you going to pay this off?

[0:04:55.7] KH: I think our main thought was it’s overwhelming. It’s just such a large amount that it feels so ambiguous that we thought that we had this plan. We had always wanted to try to pay it off within 10 years. I think I was a little more on track of, “Oh, I want to pay this off in 10 years” and we had some advice from a previous financial advisor that had said, “Oh, it’s just student loan debt, everyone has it, it will be okay.” We changed it to 30 years so we could have minimum payments but always pay extra if we wanted to and, ultimately, we just found that that eventually did not work as well for us.

We needed a more targeted plan to get us on track with what we were doing. We had always been paying the amounts, but I think it was how we were planning to target to actually pay it off. It always felt like this end date that we were never going to get to.

[0:05:44.4] TU: One of the questions I like to ask folks, and we’ll talk more in a little bit about how aggressive you guys were to really get a chunk of this paid off, but I like to understand, what’s the why? What’s the motivation behind it? It’s one of these things, as you mentioned, you can take them out 25, 30 years if you want to. Obviously, you guys made a good decision to be much more aggressive. Tell me more about for the two of you, for your family, why was that important?

[0:06:08.2] NH: It’s funny you say that because I think until I had a why, it wasn’t important. Like I said, I didn’t look at it, I barely wanted to check it. I think at one point in residency, I put myself on the graduated repayment plan and my only motivation was because the payment today is lower and that seems like—that seems better, right?

I had no plan early on, until we developed the ‘why’, which was getting our financial house in order so that we could live the way that we wanted to. Travel, work less, work in the capacities that we wanted to, all the things that have led us to this point. Until I had that in place, there wasn’t a why and it didn’t matter.

[0:06:42.7] TU: Yeah, I think that’s such a good encouragement for folks that are in the midst of their journey, or maybe have wondered into the repayment or for that matter, the financial plan at large, and feel like, “Hey, maybe I’m progressing but not as quickly as I would like to. I’m a little bit stuck.” Really going back to what gets us excited, right?

The topic of money, money is a tool. So, what gets us excited, why do we care bout this topic of money, why do we care about debt repayment, why do we care about saving/investing for the future, why do we care about giving? And then using that as the motivation to drive some of the action and the plan going forward.

So, Nate, what happened in 2016 that was really a motivation to say, “Hey, we’ve got to do something different?”

[0:07:22.0] NH: Yeah, that really is when it changed for us and, again, we’d been paying on them and, every once in a while, we get the idea that, “Hey, we should throw in some extra money because these loans are huge.” We would do it for a couple of months and I feel like we just were inconsistent. But in 2016, we got pregnant with our first child and, again, I tell this story on the podcast several times, but I read Rich Dad Poor Dad and it completely changed my mindset about money and what I wanted to do with money and what I wanted to do with my life and work, and just how I looked at finances.

It’s crazy it took that long to figure that out but I had no formal financial education. We go through pharmacy school, not business school, and until I read that book and changed how I wanted to approach finances in general, again, I didn’t have that why behind it. I didn’t have that motivation, so that’s what really jumpstarted us. I think it was a combination of, “Oh crap, we have a kid on the way and we have to pay for a lot of stuff” and again, this mindset shift that occurred, at least for me.

[0:08:16.1] TU: Kristen, I’m curious. I can just see Nate, because I know him now, I could see him like this totally nerding out over Rich Dad Poor Dad and coming to you with all these ideas and, “What about this, what about that?” Were you equally on fire in that moment or was there different motivations that really led you to say “Hey, we’ve got to do this differently?”

[0:08:34.4] KH: Yeah, I think I had always wanted to pay off the loan. Again, it was just so—it was a large amount that I think I didn’t know how to get there. When Nate said he read Rich Dad Poor Dad, he kept talking about it and talking about it. I think finally, in 2019, I read it, I said, “Oh, this is a really good book, I should have done it sooner”

So, I think we are a really good team together, in trying to work together and get those payments down, and Nate was very much more into it. I think at the time, I was like, I’m growing a human, I’m just going to keep doing what I’m doing, and that was the time that Nate entered real estate. He’s told this story before but, I’m six months pregnant and he goes, “Oh, I think I want to get my real estate license.” This is a time most people would have been getting board certified.

He’s like, “I’m going to go get my real estate license.” He had classes multiple times a week and I’m pregnant, trying to take care of the house and do all these things, getting ready for a baby. So, it paid off in the end and I’m glad that he did it, but I think in the moment there was also that stressful situation for me, but he’s a jack of all trades. He does lots of things and keeps busy, so it’s good.

[0:09:36.0] TU: We’re going to come back to that in a little bit, of what role did that play, Nate, for you, in terms of pursuing that, as you call, a side hustle. It’s much bigger than that, the work that you’re doing now, obviously, but why was that so instrumental, and not only to the numbers but also to some of the mindset and the motivation behind the financial plan and the journey that you were on?

I want to first talk about, though, Nate, walk us through what happened in the pandemic that really allowed you guys to say, “Hey, we’re going to get specific about when we’re going to payoff a big chunk of this debt, what it’s going to take each month.” Talk to us about what happened during the pandemic that led you to the decision around how you were going to pay off a huge portion of that debt.

[0:10:15.5] NH: Yeah, so, like I said, 2016 is where we started getting pretty serious, but even then, it wasn’t truly resolute plan, right? It was just, “Okay, we really got to be focusing on throwing extra money at this” and we did a lot better. But in 2020, we had a month or two in the pandemic and realized, “Okay, we’re not traveling as much, we’re not going to be going out to eat as much, everything shut down, let’s use this time to take the extra money that we’re not spending and really attack that loan.” At one point and, again, we were talking this morning, it was right at the end of the year, we said, “Okay, this thing is not going away, let’s really use next year to just get rid of this loan.”

So, right in December of 2020 and going into the beginning of the New Year, we said, “Let’s figure out a number. What is it that’s going to take to get this loan knocked out at the end of the year? Who cares of the balances right now, we’re going to do it in a year, let’s make sure to get it done.” So, we did some crunching of some numbers and basically said, “Okay, if we can pay everything we’re paying today but also throw an extra $3,443 at the loan every single month, mine will be gone by the end of the year and it will be just knocked out.”

So, that number, I wrote it on the big note card over here and it became like—actually got it here, I’ll grab it. Here you go, so there’s the evidence, right? 3,443. So, that became—I put that everywhere and it became the mantra of like, “If we can do that every single month, this will be gone” and that was such a huge motivator for us.

[0:11:32.8] TU: I don’t want to brush over that, because we’ll talk about it, I mean, that’s a big number, so we’re going to talk about the how of that, but tell us more about how you were able to get to that conclusion and get on the same page with that conclusion? What I’m specifically getting at here is, was it a, “hey budget status quo and we’re going to find ways to grow our income”? Was it a, “we’re going to cut some expenses”? How did you guys work through the details, Kristen, to ultimately say, “Yup, it’s $3,443 and this is how we’re going to do it.”

[0:12:04.5] KH: I think it was a little bit of a combination of both. During the pandemic, we had a little bit more interest. I think also, in doing some real estate investing and had an opportunity, we said, “Okay, do we take this money and do we put it towards real estate or do we pay down the loan more?” and eventually, we decide real estate, but we said, “Hey, like, maybe we should aggressively pay off our loan a little bit more if we are traveling and doing these things.”

So, I think in December, we had a lot of discussion about it and both of us just decided yes, we both want that to be our goal, that starting January 1st, we really start cutting back on what we’re spending. I think, really, from any area that we could, we went thorough our budget, we scrubbed it. We said, “What are we spending money on, what are the subscriptions we have, what can we cut out, what can we save money on?”

“Which of those little purchases can we just stop doing? Which things do we think that we need, can we actually hold off on buying?” and then, certainly, Nate’s side hustle helped with that as well. So, I think it was both a combination of, let’s cut back to really bare minimum spending. We weren’t eating out, we weren’t getting the extra cups of coffee from Starbucks, we weren’t doing the purchases at Target that said, “This is what you need, and this is in the dollar spot.” We just stopped all of that. And Nate worked as hard as he could with his real estate; it really is a motivator to keep putting that extra money towards it as well.

[0:13:22.3] NH: Yeah, I think we quickly realized that trying to find for an extra $3,000 in the budget. We weren’t over spending by three grand every month, that was not it, so it became my challenge to say, “Okay, well, how can I work at this side hustle to really get us the rest of the way?” So, the expenses were the catalyst, and then it was the extra income side of the equation that really boosted everything to actually make it possible.

[0:13:44.7] TU: Yeah. What I love about that is, certainly, cutting expenses, especially short-term, if you’re focused on a goal, you were talking about debt repayment, can be really valuable but it also can be a grind. I mean, it can be soul sucking sometimes, you know?

I think that one of the things I love about the approach that you took is that if you’re moving both sides of the equation, there’s a different level of momentum and mindset that come from that. Maybe the numbers aren’t as big for other folks that are pursuing ideas, but if you can both focus on, “Hey, how can we draw the income and how can we keep the expenses?” you all of a sudden feel like you’re picking up momentum in a significant way, but I don’t want to brush over that number.

$3,443 per month, that’s, for many pharmacist, if we assume, hundred, $120,000 of wage, it’s like, it’s about half of take home pay. I mean, for a lot of folks, we look at that at a monthly basis so that’s certainly commendable, and that’s a big number. Nate, I want to ask the question that I know the listeners are thinking, which is Nate, Kristen, you guys are smart. $3,443, why not invest that money?

Why not put that out so we could see that grow and compound over 20, 30, 40 years? Like, how did you guys reconcile this ongoing debate, which is maybe a little bit of a moot point right now because the administrative forbearance, but this ongoing debate of, “Should I pay down the debt or should I invest for the future?”

[0:15:03.9] NH: Yeah. This is something we struggled with for years. Should we go out and buy another rental property or should we just take this money and throw it at the loan? That’s been the back and forth. Like Kristen was saying, we were evaluating whether we should be doing real estate or paying down the debt.

We challenged ourself to say like, “Can we do both?” and so, for me, again, working and trying to add extra income to the equation. It became a game of, “Okay, if I can make $3,000 a month extra, that’s going to get us there. But if I can make 4,000 or 5,000, that’s another couple of grand I can put at the real estate investing budget.”

So what we have, we had a bucket in LI, in our LI bank account, that was the real estate investing fund and we still have that, we still use it, it is a great way to separate our money. I had to pull from that in any month that I didn’t make enough income to really make the difference, I had to pull out of that. So it was like this, I was afraid to give it up. So it became a challenge to myself and to us.

We need to cut our expenses and raise our income in a way where I can keep padding that account, that bucket, while also meeting our number. It was a double motivator of let’s get rid of the debt and I don’t want to lose sight of the other thing that I’m really passionate about. So, let us find a way to do both.

[0:16:09.8] TU: Kristen, we both know that kids could be expensive. We love them, but it can be very expensive. I think one of the challenges folks have that are raising young family, whether it is debt repayment, whether it is achieving other financial goals, is it’s an expensive phase of life, right?

The data suggested it’s multiples of hundreds of thousands to be able to raise a child, and I am curious of how you guys were able to reconcile this with young ones? I know you guys are so active and intentional as a family now. When you’re looking ahead to say, “Hey, this is a sacrifice now but it is going to allow us to really push our goals forward as a family later in the future.” Tell us about your thoughts on that.

[0:16:46.9] KH: For sure. I remember being pregnant in 2016 and just thinking like, “Oh my gosh, I already feel like we’re living paycheck to paycheck, how are we possibly going to raise a child and afford daycare?” We even joke now, our big expense is mortgage. Childcare and student loan debt was there, our mortgage was the least expensive of all of those.

So yes, certainly having kids is—we always felt like we knew we wanted to have kids and it was just figuring out how do we plan for that. I think, especially now, spending more time with the kids too without having that student loan debt and being able to do more things and travel more, it feels like it’s definitely paying off in the end with making some of those sacrifices or making those adjustments.

Really, that mindset change, I was joking this morning, like you said Tim, it’s mindset changing. In 2021, we actually kept a list of things of, what are things we didn’t buy that we’re going to buy when the student loan is paid, and I was laughing because I’m like, “I still haven’t even bought these things yet.” We just found that maybe we don’t actually need them.

[0:17:44.7] TU: Yeah and some of those behaviors. That’s what I always encourage folks, whatever goal you’re working towards, some of those behaviors you implement in that season will stay with you for the long run. Certainly, there’s a time and place to loosen the reigns a little bit and make sure we’re living a rich life today as well as planning for the future, but we’ll talk about what that looks like for you guys.

But some of those behaviors can stay longer, which I think is really an incredible part of the journey. I want to touch on two things we’ve mentioned I think play a really important role to this journey, which is, number one, that you talk about the side hustle you had working full-time as a pharmacist, as a real estate agent that allowed you to accelerate some of the goals and momentum.

Then the second being the investing in real estate, which much of our community already knows the work that you there on the Real Estate Investing Podcast but talk to us first about the side hustle as a realtor. When did you become a realtor, why did you become a realtor and you know ultimately, how have you been able to balance this while you are also at the time working full-time?” You are raising a young family, tell us about the decision to pursue that work and the role that it played and the debt repayment journey.

[0:18:51.3] NH: Yes, I mentioned that mindset shift that occurred in 2016. I realized I needed something else that was going to be able to supplement my pharmacy career, something where I could put extra effort in and get extra reward from doing that, real estate became a natural fit. Again, it is mentioned a dozen times in Rich Dad Poor Dad and I started reading other things about ways to diversify income streams and, you name it, right?

Real estate was in that conversation. I talked to my father-in-law who has been in real estate for years and he’s like, “You should just get your license.” At the time that felt like, “Well, that’s a different career. I can’t do that” but as I looked into it, it was actually a really reasonable option to supplement that. So I went, like Kristen said, to classes in 2016, got licensed in early 2017 and I assumed that everyone was all of a sudden coming to me, right?

All my family and friends were going to flock to me and say, “Nate, buy and sell me a house” and it was, I think, eight months before I had a real client and actually closed the deal. I mean, it was a long time, and that’s because I wasn’t putting the right amount of effort into it and I wasn’t targeting what I needed to be doing, right? I wasn’t niching down and, again, that’s what led to the creation of real estate RPH and all the work that I do with pharmacists and the real estate community.

All those things progressed down the road to the point where I am at today where, again, now I get to work with a bunch of active clients here in Cleveland. I help people all over the country with our real estate concierge service and it is a really cool way to put my passion for real estate into the world of pharmacy that I started out in and, again, it’s also been a great way for us to supplement our income stream just because it is something where I could put more effort in and get more dollars out as a result from doing that.

[0:20:21.6] TU: Yeah. I want to put a plug in, just so you don’t have to as well, but I think that service has really been so valuable to the community. So, if folks are looking to buy a home, sell a home, looking to buy an investment property and they’re looking for an agent that would be a good fit for them. It is okay if you’re not in the Cleveland area where Nate is, he’s built a network of agents all across the country that have supported other pharmacist.

So, if you go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com, you click on home buying, you’ll see a section for find an agent and from there, you can get connected with Nate further.

Kristen, I want to ask you about the real estate investing side just because Nate talks about this on the podcast every week but I know, because I’ve seen it offline through some of the times I am talking with Nate, you guys are crunching numbers on the property and you’re on the spreadsheets punching numbers, “Is this a good deal, is this not a good deal?”

Tell us more about the vision that you guys have had for real estate investing for you as a family, why that’s been a good fit, and the approach that you’ve taken thus far in your real estate investing journey?

[0:21:17.5] KH: Yeah, I think we always had an interest in real estate investing. You know, my family has some experience with that, like Nate mentioned, my dad is a realtor, so we knew its something we eventually wanted to do. It was just figuring out ,how do we put it in as part of our plan? But when Nate said he was interested, I was all onboard, but I was also that type-A risk averse pharmacist as in, “How do we do this? I have no idea.”

I vividly remember a lot of my commutes, listening to Bigger Pockets, reading a lot of real estate books just to fill my brain with the information I felt that I needed to feel comfortable with real estate investing, and we always knew that we wanted to have those properties. I think one of the biggest things I had learned from Bigger Pockets was, one great thing about real estate investing is even if something happens, you still own a building.

You still have something physical there that you could sell and we just—we always knew we wanted it to be something to supplement with one of our investments.

[0:22:13.4] TU: Yeah, so right now you guys have property, correct me if I am wrong, you’ve got property in Northeast Ohio and then you’ve also got property outside of the area, correct?

[0:22:22.0] NH: Yes, so we’ve got properties here locally and then some up in Michigan as well.

[0:22:25.7] TU: Awesome, love that. And folks can tune in to the Real Estate Investing Podcast for more stories of other pharmacists real estate investors. So, we’ve talked about really three main buckets that were instrumental in paying off this $250,000 of debt and that was, I categorize it as hustle, cutting your expenses that more than $3,000 per month, growing the income through the side hustle, and then also looking at how you’re able to build a real estate investment portfolio. We’re there other strategies that helped you along this way of paying off this debt?

[0:22:55.8] NH: There are little things. I think one that comes to mind for me is that we refinanced that loan, I think four different times, and a lot of that was because we were getting low interest rates every single time, and the other is because we were able to get big bonus. So, if you have been on any of the YFP resources for loan pay down or for loan refinance, you get cash bonuses depending on your loan balance.

A couple of times we would go out and refinance it, wait a couple of months, refinance it again, and we’d get a check and a lower interest rate, it just made a ton of sense. So, that was a little thing that helped quite a lot along the way.

[0:23:24.2] KH: I think another thing that really helped us was working with Tim Baker and the planning team at YFP. They were very much instrumental in guiding us through and helping us make the decisions. You know, I grew up putting my money under a mattress making sure it was nice and crisp and counting it every week. When we started this journey, Nate wasn’t financially savvy until 2016, when he got more into it after reading Rich Dad Poor Dad.

So, I think working together in having a third party objectively look at everything and give us some guidance was really helpful as well.

[0:23:55.9] TU: You don’t have to make Tim’s ego any bigger. No, I’m just kidding. I can see he is listening to that. So the question that I am begging to know the answer to is, you guys were throwing a huge amount of money at this debt. Obviously, at some point, you got that debt paid off and, all of a sudden, you’re not having to make that big of a payment anymore. I often think about this in the context of my journey and I often chalk it up to where did that money go.

Well, more kids, kids got expensive, other things come along the way, but I also know you guys have been really intentional as a family about what are we trying to do in terms of experiences and how we want to be intentional with the resources and the money that you have each month. So, Kristen, talk to us about this journey after the $250,000 of debt, where no longer making this massive monthly payment. What’s happening? What are we doing?

[0:24:43.5] KH: Well, we went to Disney World. I feel like that’s the most appropriate thing, you know? Honestly, in some parts, it feels like it hasn’t changed at all. We still have a lot of that mindset with being frugal and still saving for our future, but also trying to live in the moment, and we have done a lot of life planning as well and things that we want to do. I think we’re working on travelling more.

Like I said, we went to Disney, hopefully some other trips coming up, just being able to spend more time with the kids I think. People with children understand that the first five years before they start school is just hectic and overwhelming. We were just trying to take in all these moments before they head to school officially.

[0:25:20.1] TU: I love that. Right, it goes quick and everyone says that, but it’s real, and I think the intentionality around these experiences and making sure there’s the budget there to support those experiences and to be able to enjoy those moments along the way. Nate, you recently shared publically your decision to go from full-time to part-time work in your pharmacist role. So we’re going to officially call you a pseudo pharmacist now.

[0:25:41.7] NH: That’s fair.

[0:25:42.9] TU: How much of a factor was getting to this point of having this $250,000 of debt paid off, how much of a factor was that and being able to approach that decision and ultimately, feel confident in that decision.

[0:25:55.4] NH: Yeah, it was huge. I mean, I can’t say that when we stared off that was the plan but as we get closer, we realized that it was a possibility, and I looked at the timing and I looked at where we were at and I said, “Look, this is like the last summer before our oldest goes off to kindergarten and then it is just going to get crazier and crazier as time goes on” So I took a step back and said, “Now that this debt is gone, we really can take a step back.”

Kristen has been so supportive and helpful in allowing me to do that, but it’s been really cool because now I can just focus on them for the summer and those extra 20 hours that I found every single week is just, I’m on the kid’s schedule. Like the other day, it was raining in the morning and so we went to the movies and we saw a kid’s movie and then we got out and I was like, “Hey, it’s sunny. Let’s go to the playground” and so we did that.

It was just really cool to be on their schedule rather than some work schedule or something else that I had to do or had to get done. There wasn’t a timeframe anymore and that’s been really cool and again, without that debt being gone, there is no way we could have done that.

[0:26:51.3] TU: Yeah, what I love is I think both of you are such a great example. Where yes, you’ve got a PharmD, yes, you’ve got residency training, yes, you could continue to climb certainly in various clinical roles and there’s the opportunities always there and will be there, but you also have some opportunity for flexibility in those roles and I think sometimes we don’t think creatively enough as pharmacist about how we’re going to use our time each week, and that can change season to season.

I work with other pharmacists who went through a season with young family and others where they pivoted to part-time roles or more flexible schedules and then that changed the game at a later point in time. So I think there’s opportunities to make sure that we are coordinating our work plan with our life plan and with the financial plan as well. Kristen, I’ll start with you and then Nate, if you have other thoughts as well.

I’m someone listening who, maybe I’m a student, and I am like, “Oh my gosh, thanks so much I feel depressed about the journey ahead” or maybe I am in the middle of the debt repayment journey and I just feel like, “When does this going to end?” or I feel like I am spinning my wheels. What advice would you have for pharmacists that are in that debt repayment journey as they’re trying to really navigate that path forward?

[0:27:58.8] KH: Yeah. Not to sound cheesy, but I think a really big player, at least for me, was the YFP planning team. We felt like we had a plan but we weren’t really sure if it was a good plan, and really it was after I had our second child and I was listening to a lot of podcast. I was walking everyday on maternity leave and I was listening to podcast every time I would go for a walk and I was like, “We really need to look at this.”

I feel like we need a more set plan as to what we’re doing, especially since you’re at such an integral point of your life where you want to be able to spend extra time with the kids, but you also may feel like you can’t financially do that, and so I think having that, like I said, that objective third party look at what you two are talking about as a couple can be really, really helpful, and also helped us look at a lot of our other financial plan with the investments.

Like, can we get into more real estate investing, are we contributing enough to our 401(k)? Are we doing things that seem like we should be doing? I think that is really, really been a big impact on us on being able to achieve this.

[0:28:55.0] TU: Nate, any other words of wisdom, advice you’d have to folks that are kind of in the thick of it, if you will?

[0:29:00.6] NH: Yeah, I think for me, again, just for me at least, what were just this mindset shift away from being stuck at, “Okay, I only have—this is my income” right? “If I make a $110,000 a year as a pharmacist, that’s all I’ve got and there is no other opportunities and I have to make it work with that money.” I challenge everybody out there, and there’s a thousand and one different ways to do this, but you should find something where the more effort you put in, the more you get out of it, and it doesn’t have to be money, right?

That can be just time, that can be time with your family, that can be things that you enjoy doing, whatever that is, find something that is going to supplement your life that the more effort you put into it, the more reward you get out of it ,and that is just a really great way to set yourself up for success.

[0:29:40.9] TU: I love that. To reiterate what we talked about a little bit ago, the dollars are one piece of that, but don’t underestimate the momentum that comes from that as well, and that momentum is so important as it relates to the financial plan. You’re related to the debt repayment but I always stick to the other parts of the plan as well. Again guys, congratulations on knocking out this huge chunk of debt.

Really incredible to hear the story and the why behind it and how you’re able to do it, excited for what lies ahead of you guys and thanks for taking time to come on the show.

[0:30:10.5] NH: Thanks Tim, we appreciate it.

[0:30:11.6] KH: Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:30:12.3] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information of the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analysis expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 341: 5 Financial Moves to Make in 2024 with Tim Ulbrich

Posted on January 4, 2024January 3, 2024 by YFP Media

Tim Ulbrich, YFP CEO, shares 5 key moves for financial success, emphasizing automation, proactive tax planning, document organization, and continuous learning.

Episode Summary

In the first episode of the New Year, YFP CEO and financial educator, Tim Ulbrich, unveils a financial roadmap for 2024, emphasizing five key moves for achieving financial success and living a rich life. Tim highlights the pivotal role of automation in financial planning, proactive tax planning, the importance of organizing financial documents and the significance of continuous learning. He shares his personal financial goals and the systems he uses to organize and prioritize his financial goals. Tune in to gain insights and actionable steps for mastering your finances in 2024.

About Today’s Guest

Tim Ulbrich is the Co-Founder and CEO of Your Financial Pharmacist. Founded in 2015, YFP is a fee-only financial planning firm and connects with the YFP community of 15,000+ pharmacy professionals via the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast podcast, blog, website resources and speaking engagements. To date, YFP has partnered with 75+ organizations to provide personal finance education.

Tim received his Doctor of Pharmacy degree from Ohio Northern University and completed postgraduate residency training at The Ohio State University. He spent 9 years on faculty at Northeast Ohio Medical University prior to joining Ohio State University College of Pharmacy in 2019 as Clinical Professor and Director of the Master’s in Health-System Pharmacy Administration Program.

Tim is the host of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast which has more than 1 million downloads. Tim is also the co-author of Seven Figure Pharmacist: How to Maximize Your Income, Eliminate Debt and Create Wealth. Tim has presented to over 200 pharmacy associations, colleges, and groups on various personal finance topics including debt management, investing, retirement planning, and financial well-being.

Key Points from the Episode

Financial moves for 2024, including saving and automation. [0:01]
Balancing financial goals with living a rich life today. [3:04]
Proactive tax planning for financial success. [8:21]
Common tax mistakes and planning for tax season. [12:19]
Organizing financial documents for peace of mind. [14:43]
Automating financial planning for maximum profit. [20:19]
Prioritizing sinking funds for various financial goals. [25:21]
Prioritizing savings goals using a systematic approach. [28:24]
Financial moves for 2024, including automation and learning. [34:36]

Episode Highlights

“I get excited with the turning of the page into the new year. Not as a complete reset, but as an opportunity to really look more closely at the priorities that have determined to be most important to me, personally and professionally.” –Tim Ulbrich [02:22]

“Now tax in my opinion, is one of the most under appreciated and overlooked parts of the financial plan.” –Tim Ulbrich [08:27]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRO]

Tim Ulbrich 00:01

Hey everybody, Tim over here. And thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I kick off the new year by covering five financial moves that you can make in 2024 to jumpstart your financial plan. So whether your plan is humming or you’re looking to get refocused and back on track, my hope is that this episode will challenge and motivate you as you set your own goals and plan for 2024. During the show, I talked through why it’s important to set a plan that includes both saving for the future and living a rich life today, I discuss an often overlooked part of the financial plan that perhaps needs more love and attention, why automation should be a key part of your financial planning strategy, and much more. Before we jump in, I want to let you know about a free webinar that I’m hosting coming up on Monday, January 8, at 8pm/Eastern, it’s gonna be a party, and I don’t want you to miss it would love to see you there. During this webinar, master your money in 2024. I’m gonna cover my playbook going from $200,000 in debt to becoming a seven figure pharmacist. Specifically, I’m going to cover how to get clear on your vision for living a rich life, the system and money management routine that we use to get out of debt and save our first million, how to automate your plans, so you aren’t wondering if you’re on track to reach your goals, and how to determine your retirement numbers. If you can’t make it to the webinar live, no worries, we’ll send out a replay to those that register. But if you do attend live, you’ll have a chance to enter a giveaway where two live attendees will be selected for one of the following: $100 Amazon gift card or a YFP bundle including YFP tshirt, YFP pullover and your book of choice. You’ll learn more about the webinar and register your yourfinancialpharmacist.com/2024. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/2024. Alright, let’s jump into today’s episode, five financial moves that you can make in 2024.

Tim Ulbrich 02:03

Hi, there, Tim Ulbrich here and Happy New Year! I’m so excited to be kicking off 2024 with you here on the YFP podcast. Thank you so much for listening and for joining the show. I hope you had some time over the last several weeks to reflect on 2023, think about what’s ahead for 2024, hopefully unwind and spend some time with loved ones as well. I get excited with the turning of the page into the new year. Not as a complete reset, but as an opportunity to really look more closely at the priorities that have determined to be most important to me, personally and professionally. And to make sure that the schedule and activities align accordingly. And I hope the same is true for you. And as we talk about that turn into the new year, as it relates to the financial plan, I’m going to cover five financial moves that I think you should consider implementing here in 2024, if you’re not already doing so, in your own financial journey. We’re going to talk through each one of these in detail. I’m going to talk about how I’ve implemented this in my own life as well as why I think about each of these five areas really is core to your long term financial success.

So let’s kick things off with number one, which is making sure that our financial goals strike the balance between living a rich life today, as well as planning and saving for the future, right? We need to be thinking about tomorrow, we have to be planning and saving for retirement, making sure that we’re focused on moving our net worth in a positive direction, net worth being our assets, minus our liabilities, making sure that we’re taking care of our future selves saving for retirement filling those investment buckets, all of those things are a priority. And I hope you have some plans and goals around those in 2024. But let’s not lose sight of those goals that help keep us focused on living a rich life today while we’re planning and saving for the future, while we’re planning for tomorrow. So perhaps for some of you listening, you’ve long dreamed about a certain experience that has taken a backseat to the busyness of life. Maybe that’s as small as a weekend getaway. For those that have young kids, I know how difficult that can be. Or perhaps for some of you this is a big stretch goal, may be something as big as a year off, traveling the world having those lifetime types of experiences, those bucket list type of experiences that are most important to you.

You know, I think back to Matt and Nicky Javert that we featured on the podcast that traveled the world. Nick Ornella that took a year off from his job as community pharmacist to travel the world. We’ll share both of those episodes in the show notes. So no matter where your experience or goals live, there is no right or wrong. Each of us are on our own journey. Perhaps it’s something that’s experienced focus that hasn’t been a priority that you’d like to make a priority in 2024. But how about those interests, or hobbies that we used to long for and prioritize that have gotten lost again and that busyness of life and work? So for me in 2023 This wasn’t a financial expense, but it was something that brought great joy. One of the activities that I wanted to pursue was getting back into playing volleyball, something I had done competitively throughout high school, something that the busyness of life, other priorities and work just fell by the wayside. And I did that through a local rec league and that brought incredible joy to me throughout the winter. Or what about that side hustle business or project that you’ve been dragging your feet to take the first step on, or perhaps volunteering or giving opportunities that have gotten lost in the shuffle of other priorities of the financial plan.

So let’s make this year the year that we move the needle on both yes, those long term savings and investment goal saving for our future selves, while also prioritizing living a rich life today. Now, here’s the reality when it comes to setting and achieving our goals, many of us probably need to simplify and clarify our goals to put them in focus. There’s lots of competing priorities, regardless of the stage of life that you’re in. And so I would encourage you to put them down on paper, something that we’ve been doing inside of the YFP plus community last month in December of 2023, was writing down our goals in a measurable time oriented way over the next one year, two to three goals in each of the four areas that mean most to us and our own wellness, of course, finance here, we’re talking about one area of wellness, and sharing that out with one another as a mechanism of both accountability to do the activity, as well as hopefully encouragement and accountability and achieving those goals. So put them down on paper, identify two to three financial goals that you want to achieve over the next year. And again, yes, we’ll have some of those objective things, right saving for the future, investing in 401Ks and IRAs and all those types of investments. But I would challenge you: do you also have components of your financial plan that are aligned with living that rich life today? So we’re not talking about being specific, I’m referring to having a what, to having a when, and to having a why. To having a what, a when, and why. So for example, for us in 2024, one of the experiences we’re hoping to achieve is to go out west to visit some of Jess’s family in Montana in the summer of 2024. We know that’s an expense, right? Traveling from Ohio to Montana, we’ve got four young boys, whether we fly whether we drive, experiences along the way, that’s going to be a large expense. So when it comes to us, that might look like something that hey, by June 1 of 2024, we will allocate $5,000, so that we can take that trip out to Montana, and have that experience with our boys and be with our family, though that’s out there, right? We’ve got a what, we’ve got a when, and we’ve got a why. When we have a what, when and why, we can start to not only make that goal come to life, but we can implement that in a monthly plan to see what it’s going to take for us to be able to achieve that goal. And we’ll talk more about that later on this episode.

So again, before you set your goals for the new year. Get clear on the why right? Do your goals motivate you do your goals inspire you and for those that are you that are doing this together with a significant other, a partner or spouse, starting with the goal, starting with the vision, starting with the dreams and getting aligned in those areas, is going to really help the rest of the financial plan to flow. So that’s number one on our list of five financial moves that you can make in the new year, making sure that your goals include and strike the balance between living a rich life today, and planning and saving for the future.

Alright, number two is taking your tax strategy to the next level taking your tax strategy to the next level. Now tax in my opinion, is one of the most under appreciated and overlooked parts of the financial plan. And I want you to think about tax as a thread that runs across your financial plan, perhaps one that maybe you’re not thinking enough about that. Ideally, we are proactively considering and evaluating when we are making our financial moves. Now this sounds so obvious, but I historically previously have viewed tax very much in the rearview mirror, right we have to file by April 15, or thereabouts each year to meet the IRS requirements. We don’t want the IRS coming knocking at our doors. And when we do that we are accounting for what happened in the previous year. Now thankfully, because of our tax team, because of our attention and focus on this topic, I’ve become much more proactive in my tax planning as a part of the financial plan. But in years gone by, we would file our taxes and then we’d hold our breath right? Are we going to get a refund? Or are we going to have taxes that are due do we do we do our withholdings correctly based on differences in charitable giving from one year to the next right all of these factors?

I didn’t have a great picture on come that time of tax filing, what was going to happen, right, and that is less than ideal when it comes to optimizing this part of the financial plan. It’s so again, we need to shift our attention from tax preparation to tax planning. One is proactive. One is reactive right again when we go to file and we complete that paperwork whether you do that yourself whether you hire professional that is looking backwards if we start to think more proactive, hopefully at the point of filing, yes, we’re going to do that work, we have to do that. But we’re then looking ahead to say, hey, based on that information, based on the rest of our financial plans, based on our personal situation, based on changes that we know are coming or goals that we have, what can we be doing strategically in advance throughout the rest of the year, to make sure that we’re paying our fair share of taxes, but no more. So if you don’t already know your key tax numbers, I’m referring to things like marginal tax rate, effective tax rate, adjusted gross income, let’s make a commitment this year to get started and to learn more.

Now, I would love if you would get out the IRS Form 1040, we’ll link to it in the show notes. And just spend 10 to 15 minutes to make sure that you understand the terminology and the flow of dollars. I get it. It’s nerdy, right. And whether you like this subject, or you don’t you do it yourself, you hire someone else. Understanding these numbers and understanding the flow of dollars, and what those terms mean and how it ultimately affects your marginal and your effective tax rate is going to be really important as you think about the strategies, and you’ll be able to directly see how certain strategies you can implement in the financial plan are going to have an impact on the overall taxes that you pay. So as one example, AGI adjusted gross income has huge implications for those that are going through student loan repayment, right income driven repayment calculations, especially for those that are pursuing the Public Service Loan Forgiveness strategy, your adjusted gross income is directly tied to the monthly payment that you’re going to make under student loan. So if we understand that, we can then start to think about, well, hey, are there strategies I can use that can perhaps reduce or lower my AGI adjusted gross income? Not by making less than one do that, but by making contributions to things like traditional 401 K or traditional 403B accounts? Or how about health savings accounts? Right? These are types of things that can reduce our taxable income, therefore reduce our monthly student loan payment, which is a great thing, especially for those that are pursuing tax free loan forgiveness, all the while we’re accruing tax deferred savings into the future. Just one example of how important the proactive planning can be.

Now on episode 309 of the podcast, we’ll link to that in the show notes. Our CPA and Director of Tax Sean Richards covered the top 10 tax blunders that pharmacists make. So whether you have a negative net worth, or you have several million dollars saved, I think you’ll find a lot of value in that episode. Sean, reflecting on the recent tax filing season, where he filed he’ll correct me if I’m wrong, I think over 200 something returns for the different clients that we worked with. And what he saw as the most common mistakes that pharmacists were making. Some of those things, including having a surprise bill, or refund due at filing, probably the most common thing that we see, including some of the surprises that are causing that issue, right. And so what we want to be doing ideally is we’re shooting for zero, we don’t want to have an interest free loan that we have out to the government. And we also don’t want to have a surprise bill that’s due that we’re not ready for. So what are the common things that cause that refund or cause that bill so we talked about that on that episode. Another common mistake he discussed was pharmacists not employing a bunching strategy for charitable giving. So for those that are giving, especially giving at a significant level, and aren’t following the standardized deduction, Is there perhaps some strategy in the in the bunching of charitable contributions that can reduce one’s tax rate. He also talked about a common mistake he saw a new side hustlers and business owners not planning for taxes.

So earning income and being surprised by not paying estimated taxes along the way. We talked about under estimating the power of the HSA, the health savings account and an oldie but a goodie, not factoring in public service loan forgiveness when choosing tax filing status as married, filing separately or married filing jointly. So make sure to check out that episode episode 309. And easy to see as you hear some of those common examples why having a proactive tax plan is worth its weight in gold. Now, as we turn the page into the new year, this is a great time to be planning, right? We’re getting ready to go into tax season that mid April deadline that we talked about. So now is the perfect time to be thinking about the upcoming tax filing season. Our tax team is ready to help, yes with the filing, but also as I discussed here, with proactive year round tax planning. We do that through our comprehensive tax planning service you can visit YFPtax.com to learn more, and to see whether or not those services may be a good fit for you. Alright, so that’s number two on our list of five financial moves to make in the new year. Take your tax strategies the next level.

Number three is button up your financial documents. Button up your financial documents. Now getting organized with your financial records, I believe plays a significant role, not necessarily in terms of moving the needle on your net worth, but in making sure that you and others have access to all of the information that you need to make informed decisions with the financial plan. So think for a minute about all the financial accounts that you have out there, all the different documents, insurance policies that touch a certain part of your financial plan, the list quickly grows to one that is overwhelming. And the more you operate in your own system, the longer time goes by where you’re operating in your own system, the easier it is for you to navigate, but perhaps harder for others to navigate and unravel, should they need to do so in the future. And that’s where this concept of buttoning up your financial documents comes in. That’s where this concept of a legacy folder comes in. I first heard of that idea of a legacy folder, when I took Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University probably 10-12 years ago at this point at our local church. And I remember walking away thinking, wow, that is so simple. So obvious. Why haven’t I done that yet? Why haven’t Jess and I done that yet, as a part of our own plan. So essentially, the idea of a legacy folder if that’s a new concept to you, whether it’s a physical folder, and electronic folder, or a combination of both, it’s a place where you have all of your financial related documents. So in the event of an emergency, others would be able to quickly access your financial situation and not just access but be able to pick up and understand what’s going on and to be able to make key decisions in your absence. So we just went through updating this and shifting everything to an electronic version. So that in the event of something that happens to Jess and I those caring for our boys, along with the financial planning team at YFP have access to all of the necessary information. So here’s how we have organized it certainly not the only way to do it. But here’s how we have organized it in a combination of Google Drive, and a safe at home that has a passwords, all of our passwords stored in a One Password account. So we have nine different sections, I’ll describe them briefly, this sounds overwhelming, it did take a commitment of time to get started. It takes a commitment of time to update. But I will say there’s an incredible feeling of peace and momentum that comes from having this done.

So section one for us is what we refer to as important documents, okay, birth certificates for us, for our kids ,social security cards, marriage certificates, passports, all of these we have in a fireproof safe at home. And we have them just referenced as being there in the electronic version that we share with the financial planning team as well share with those that would take care of the boys in the event of our absence. So that’s section one important document.

Section two is all of our insurance policies and information – auto insurance, homeowners insurance, umbrella insurance, health insurance, long term disability, term life insurance policies for myself, for Jess, for the business, etcetera.

Section three is estate planning documents. So we have a hard copy of these in the safe that have been notarized and electronic version that’s uploaded in the Google Drive. So these are things like the revocable trust agreements, health care power of attorney living will last will and testament.

Section four is the car titles. Now, I’m not sure how valuable these are given our current condition of our Swagger Wagon, but they’re there nonetheless. So section four is the car title.

Section five is our home ownership documents. So this is the deed to the home, our home equity line of credit or HELOC information, we have another copy of homeowners insurance policy here just so it’s all contained in one section.

Section six is a summary of our financial accounts, our net worth tracking sheet, as well as our Social Security statements. So I’m going to talk about more of this in the webinar on January 8, and actually kind of show you the system that we have set up. But here I just have a quick summary, think of it as a table of contents of all of our financial accounts that are out there. So for example, we use Ally for checking and savings accounts, where we have our treasury bonds, where we have our different investment accounts, 401K’s, IRA accounts and so forth. So it’s just a quick summary of what is the account type, where’s the account. And then as I mentioned, we store all the passwords in a separate secure One Password account. We also have in this section, a net worth tracking sheet. So each month, we track all of our assets, all of our liabilities, we add those up assets minus minus liabilities equals net worth. And we’re tracking our progression of net worth over a period of time. So it’s a way that Jess and I can just quickly look at a 20,000 foot view of where’s our overall financial health whereas the overall trajectory of the net worth.

Section seven is our tax returns for personal and business tax returns.

Section eight is all of the records related to the business. So a summary of the different entities, legal documents, operating agreements, buy/sell agreements, etc.

And then section nine is just a miscellaneous so information about utilities and other accounts that don’t fit in the previous sections. Again, it takes time to get that started, but it’s something that you can act upon pretty quickly in the new year, and I encourage you to set an annual recurring reminder, whether that’s the turn of the new year, perhaps it’s daylight savings time or something else, that you just remember to update those documents as needed periodically.

Alright, so that’s number three in our five financial moves to making 2024, button up your financial documents. Number four is my favorite. This is the area that I think has moved the needle the most for Jess and I, in our financial plan over the last decade or so. And that is automation, making sure that you have a system and ideally a system that is working for you. Now, when it comes to automating your financial plan, again, I think just like the legacy folder concept we talked about, it’s so obvious, so effective, so easy to implement. But many people I don’t think are optimizing this. So think of automation, as the mechanism by which your income is working for you. And it’s automatically funding the priorities that you’ve already set, and determined to be most important in advance. Now, I know I’m not alone, when I say that I was feeling for some time that there are multiple financial priorities that are occurring at once that are swirling around in my head. And it can be overwhelming to think about what are those priorities? In what order? And how do we allocate the limited resource of limited income that we have to those? Should we focus on one? Should we focus on two? Should we focus on three? And so much of the stress around the financial plan, I believe, is from all of that unknown, and anxiety swirling in our heads, right? If we can get that down onto paper, and if we can start to put some numbers and a plan to it and prioritize it, we may not always like the outcome of how fast we may or may not be able to achieve those goals. But once we have a plan, once we articulate it, once we know we thought about it, we prioritize it, I think there’s a lot of clarity and momentum that can come from that. So automation helps put those goals into action. It takes the stress out of wondering whether or not they’re going to happen. So whether it’s saving for an emergency fund, whether it’s saving for a vacation, paying down debt, whether it’s student loan debt, consumer debt, auto loan debt, mortgage debt, whatever type of debt, whether it’s saving for retirement, saving for home, saving for investment property, automation helps identify and prioritize these goals and assign your income accordingly. Yes, it takes a bit of time to set up, perhaps not as much as you may think, because you hear about it. But once it’s set up, it provides a long term return on time benefit, but also better yet, as I mentioned peace of mind and feeling of momentum knowing that you’ve thought about prioritize and have a plan in place working itself to fund your goals.

Now, Ramit Sethi talks about this in his book, I Will Teach You To Be Rich, he does an incredible job of teaching automation credit to him. And he says that automating your financial plan will be the single most profitable system that you’ll ever build. And I remember hearing that and thinking, Man, that’s a big, big promise, right? But it is 100% true. Automating your financial plan will be the single most profitable system that you’ll ever built. So if you’re not already doing this, I want you to imagine a future state. Imagine a future state where your financial goals and priorities are clearly defined. You’ve determined how much of your monthly budget is available for these goals. And you have a system in place to automatically fund these goals every month so you get paid and your money is being distributed automatically. Paycheck comes in dollars are being funded to the goals that you’ve already determined and prioritized to be most important. Okay, so what does this look like? Here’s how Jess and I are currently implementing this. Now, previously, we adhere to a zero based budget, which I think really did help us laser in and focus on our expenses and account for every single dollar that we earned. That’s the premise of a zero based budget. I think that method works out really well, especially when you’re getting started or feel like you need to get back on track. But over time, we’ve loosened this up knowing that once we account for all of our monthly commitments, right, our monthly commitments, being mortgage insurance, property taxes, giving, groceries, subscriptions, utilities, etc. Once we account for those, and those are largely fixed, outside of some variation in utility payments, we have a certain amount of funds after we account for those things that we know can be allocated in two general buckets with several options within those two general buckets. So what are those two general buckets? General bucket number one is what we call everything else. So this includes things like gas, miscellaneous trips to the store, family experiences, family entertainment, eating out, et cetera. And we track this, Jess and I track this, in a shared Google Sheet. And I’ll talk more about this in the webinar on the eighth and what the system looks like. That just helps us make sure we don’t overspend this category. Okay, so we started with our total income. We define our total take home income. We then define, as I mentioned, all of those fixed expenses and aren’t really shifting too much from month to month – mortgage, insurance, property taxes, giving, groceries, subscriptions, etc. And in days gone by that would also have been debt payments. And then what’s left over, we’re going to allocate into two general buckets and what I’m talking about is this first general bucket of everything else.

The second general bucket is what we think of as our sinking funds. It’s the second bucket of funds that we want to predefine prioritize, set allocation amounts, and then set up auto-contribution of funds. So what do I mean by the sinking funds? Okay, so for us in 2024, the areas that we’re focused on are funding an HSA, I’ll talk about each one of these more detail, finishing our basement, funding that 2024 vacations, as well as saving for a summer vacation 2025, funding our Roth IRAs, funding the next car purchase, and then thinking more about the boys 529 funds for college savings. So for us in 2024, as we sat down and thought about what is the greatest priority, those are the things that rose to the top that we wanted to fund with these bucket two funds that I’m referring to, right, the sinking funds. So in this scenario, and within our discussion of automation, we would look to estimate the available pool of funds per month or per year divided by 12, we would then prioritize the list, determine the allocation order in the amounts. And then as I mentioned, we would automatically fund those and set up a recurring contribution. So for example, let’s walk through this let’s say that we assume that for the year, let’s assume we have $3,000 a month, or $36,000 for the year available to disperse across these bucket two goals. So again, I’m not talking about the expenses that we know we’re going to fund every month, we talked about that mortgage, insurance, etc., property taxes. I’m not talking about that everything else bucket that we know a certain amount for family experiences, for gas, other trips that we may take out. I’m referring to this bucket of sinking funds.

So let’s assume we have $3,000 a month or $36,000 a year to put towards the sinking funds. Now for some of you listening, you may think, Hey, we’ve got a lot more. That’s great, right? We want to be intentional with that. And for some of you, you may be thinking, Wow, we got a lot less, right? And so we have to focus on again, everyone is on their own journey. So how do we take this $36,000 a year? How do we take this $3,000 a month if we use that as an example, and disperse that across the different goals I just talked about: HSA funds, finishing the basement, Roth IRAs, car fund, etc. So for us, the HSA is really a top priority, not just because of the triple tax benefits. I know we’ve heard about that on that on the show before. But since we have a high deductible health plan, and we have four active boys, right, so we really need to minimize our risk there. And we’ve got a really high deductible as well as a high out of pocket max. So we know that we want to max that out and 2024. That’s $8,300 a year as a family contribution. And so we were going to do that as priority number one. So once we fund that HSA< again, we started with $36,000 a year, we fund, fully fund the HSA $8,300/year, we’re now left with $27,700. So working down the list, what’s priority number two? So for us priority number two is finishing the basement. Now we’ve been planning for this for years. And we’ve decided that based on this phase of life we’re in we’ve got boys ages 12 to four, it’s a great time that we want to make the most out of the space and we want to really make this project happen. For us, it’s the example I’ve referenced in financial move number one, right? Finding that balance between saving for the future and living a rich life today. Now, does finishing the basement financially make the most sense, right? Does does it objectively may make the most sense when we compare it against other types of things like Roth IRAs, or 529 funds, and be able to save and invest for the future? The answer is no. Right? It doesn’t objectively rank higher, any money that you’re going to save and compound over time is going to beat any expense, right? That’s just an objective fact unless that money loses a significant amount as you invest it. But as we step back, and as we look at for our family, finding that balance between living a rich life today, as well as planning for the future, as we look at the progress we’ve already made towards retirement savings, we’ve decided that in fact, we’re going to make this a priority over some other investment and savings accounts. Now, to be frank, I wish we would have done this sooner. And so we’re going to pull the trigger and make this happen in 2024. So for this example, let’s assume that it’s going to cost $25,000 to do the project. And let’s assume we already have $15,000 saved so we need $10,000 more to get the project done. So again, we started with $36,000. We fully funded the HSA at $8300. We’re going to now add another $10,000 in the basement. So we’re left over with $17,700.

Moving down the list of priority number three. So continuing this theme of finding that balance between living a rich life today and tomorrow, we want to prioritize two family experiences in 2024. One being a summer trip to the Fingerlakes that we take with my family. We’ve done this for several years. And another being a trip out west to Montana, I mentioned that a bit earlier. So let’s assume for both of those, that’s going to cost a combined $7,000. So after we subtract that, we now have $10,700 left.

Moving down the list. Next up for us is Jess’s Roth IRA, that’s going to cost $7,000 to fund and max that out and 2024. After we do that, we’re left with $3700, then let’s just round this out by assuming we’ll allocate the remaining amount to my Roth IRA to do a partial fund. Now, you can see this system and process that we worked through right, we identified the total estimated annual amount, you can do the same thing, divide that by 12 for monthly. We listed out the goals, and we match those up to prioritize accordingly.

Now, here’s the disappointing part. Or perhaps, depending on you look at it, it may be exciting is as I do. In this example, we have fully funded several goals, right? We fully funded the HSA, we fully funded finishing the basement, we fully funded to 2024 vacations, we fully funded just as RIA, we partially funded my Roth IRA. But we had several things that I mentioned that were left unfunded, okay? The kids 529 accounts and the summer 2025 vacation, as well as the next car fund. So we have a couple options here. We can go back to the drawing board and redistribute right, lower some of the other ones and partially fund some, and then have others that we are able to partially fund. Or we can stay as is knowing that if additional funds become available, right, whether that’s in the form of for us additional income, it could be tax refunds, although hopefully we’re doing a good job planning and that’s not the case. It could be side hustle income for some of you. It could be picking up extra hours, it could be gifts that you receive, whatever might be the additional income, we know that we have a system and a list that is prioritize that if that income comes in, we know exactly where we’re going to allocate that. And that is the power of automation. That is the power of having a system.

So one step further, what does this practically look like for us in terms of implementation? And I’m going to show much more of this during the webinar on the 8th, I’m really excited about that. So we use Ally for all of our online banking. Now, this is not a commercial for Ally. We really liked them. We’ve used them for several years. I like the capability they have with saving buckets and other features. But you can build a system like this, and many different types of savings accounts. So for us direct deposit from work income goes into Ally, goes into a checking account. And since we know the amount required per month to allocate to the goals we decided upon, there is then a bucket labeled for each of these goals inside of Ally. So the transfer of funds goes from checking account where the direct deposit comes in to savings account. And then within the savings account, we have a predefined bucket. So essentially what this looks like is you’ve got a certain amount of dollars, let’s say $30, or $40, or $50,000 in a savings account. But once you click into that, you see all these different sub-buckets for things like vacation, for a basement remodel. And again, you can do a multitude of different buckets, I think you can do up to 30 or so inside of Ally. In the case of for us, the IRA, the Roth IRA and HSA savings, you know, we could put those in the bucket as well inside the savings account, but we’re gonna set those up to be an auto contribution directly into the investment account, right? We want those dollars working for us as quickly as possible. So again, imagine that flow you get paid, right, we’ve identified the buckets that auto contribute into the buckets, because we know we’ve already accounted for it inside of the rest of the bucket and rest of the budget. And then that’s working for us once we have the system set up. Now depending on when you get paid for us, it’s the first of the month. But for you it might be two times a month. But regardless, once you know when you get paid and once that’s consistent, we know that anytime after the first so we get paid around the first of the month, as well as the 15th. But we use the first as our metric for when we’re going to auto fund these goals. So anytime after the first it could be the third, it could be the fourth, I think I have most of them set up on the fourth, we can have that auto transfer established to go from checking to savings to the bucket leaving only in checking what is left to pay off the credit card each month. And so that all other dollars, they have a purpose, right? They’re being defined and allocated towards a goal. That is the system of automation. And I’m gonna talk more about that in the webinar on the 8th. I’m gonna give you some visuals and show you how to set up so you can make the most of it for your own financial plan. So that’s the fourth financial move. I think the one probably that can move the needle the most. Automate your financial plan have a system in place.

And finally number five is set your learning plan. Now when it comes to personal finance, I believe strongly that there is no arrived with the financial plan. Right? This is constantly evolving. It’s constantly changing. And a commitment to ongoing learning and having the humility to understand that there’s much to learn, and that mistakes are inevitable, is really key to long term success. So next week episode of the podcast, I’m going to feature ten personal finance books that I think you can/should read in 2024 that have had a profound impact on my own journey. So make sure to tune into that episode. I don’t want to spoil the goods here. But it’s important that you define that learning plan and path that works best for you.

One of the greatest advantages that we have of living in the 21st century is that we have access to learning just about anything that we want. And often we can do it at a low or no cost, right. Thank you very much to our local public library. So whether it’s reading books, great to have at it! If it’s podcasts, blogs, videos, there’s many options out there, find the learning path, that means the most to you and has the significance and really engages you in the learning process. And I would encourage you -learning is one thing, right? But learning plus action plus accountability is really where things start to happen. So that’s number five of our five financial moves to make it 2024. Set an intentional plan around what you want to learn in this new year. And then determine what are those resources, what are the blogs? What are the books? What are the podcasts that are going to help you get there and I hope YFP will be an important part of that journey.

Alright, before we wrap up today’s episode, I want to remind you of that free webinar I’m hosting on Monday January 8 at 8pm/Eastern: Master your Money. This webinar, Master your Money in 2024 and a cover my playbook going from $200,000 in debt to becoming a seven figure pharmacist. Specifically I’m gonna cover how to get clear on your vision for living a rich life, to make sure we had that vision in place, the system and money management that I’ve used that we’ve used Jess and I, to get out of debt and save our first million. How to automate your plan. I’ll show you step by step process for automation. So you’re wondering if you’re on track to achieve your goals, and how to determine your retirement webinar. As I mentioned before, if you can’t make it live, no worries, we’ll send out a replay afterwards. But if you can make it live, we’d love to see you there and you’ll then be eligible for a chance to enter a giveaway. Two live attendees will be selected to either receive $100 Amazon gift card or a YFP bundle including a YFP t-shirt, YFP pullover and a YFP book of your choice. You can learn more at register at your yourfinancialpharmacist.com/2024. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/2024. Cheers to a great New Year. Have a great rest of your day.

[DISCLAIMER]

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. information to the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 339: YFP Podcast Replay – Why Negotiation is an Important Part of Your Financial Plan

Posted on December 21, 2023December 21, 2023 by YFP Media

Tim Ulbrich & Tim Baker talk about negotiation, why it’s an important part of the financial plan, the goals of negotiation, and tips for conducting an effective negotiation.

Episode Summary

Tim Baker joins Tim Ulbrich on this episode to dig into all things negotiation. Negotiation is the process of discovery and a way to advocate for yourself and what your needs are. Tim Baker explains that negotiation is an important part of your financial plan for many reasons. He explains that settling for a lower salary can have a significant impact on your present and future finances because you may accrue less in retirement savings and potentially other investments. However, negotiation doesn’t just lie in your salary. You can also negotiate benefits like flex scheduling, paid time off as well as potentially parental leave and professional development opportunities, among others.

Tim Baker shares that 99% of hiring managers are expecting new hires to negotiate and build their initial offer as such. Many don’t end up negotiating because they don’t want to risk the offer being revoked, but Tim says that the majority of the time you should present a counter offer.

Tim then digs into the stages of the negotiation process that include the interview, receiving an offer, presenting a counter offer and accepting the offer and position. He shares many strategies and tips for each stage as well as additional techniques to use throughout the process.

About Today’s Guest

Tim Baker is the Co-Founder and Director of Financial Planning at Your Financial Pharmacist. Founded in 2015, YFP is a fee-only financial planning firm and connects with the YFP community of 12,000+ pharmacy professionals via the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast podcast, blog, website resources and speaking engagements.

Tim attended the United States Military Academy majoring in International Relations and branching Armor. After his military career, he worked as a logistician with a major retailer and a construction company. After much deliberation, Tim decided to make a pivot in his career and joined a small independent financial planning firm in 2012. In 2016, he launched his own financial planning firm Script Financial and in 2019 merged with Your Financial Pharmacist. Tim now lives in Columbus, Ohio with his wife (Shay), two kids (Olivia and Liam), and dog (Benji).

Key Points from the Episode

Negotiation can be a key part of the financial plan
Income is the lifeblood of the financial plan.
Learn ways to grow and protect income.
Advocating for yourself is important, and it’s not always just about salary.
A lower salary can have long term consequence down the road.
Employers expect some negotiations with candidates.
Salary alone should not be looked at in a vacuum; many factors can contribute a more desirable work positon.
A lot of time and effort goes into finding the right position for a job, so when an offer is made it is likely not going to be derailed by candidate asking for a higher salary.
A good candidate asks questions and listens well.
Make sure you get offers in writing.
Never lie in an interview about current salary range.
Using a precise number versus a rounded number in a counter offer has more success.
Using the anchoring technique to provide a salary range can help you land the salary you ultimately desire.
Asking a calibrated question is a question with really no fixed answer that gives the illusion of control.
Using “how”, “when”, “why” calibrated questions can be helpful in showing what you’re really trying to achieve without causing emotions to rise.
Mirroring technique is repeating 1-3 words back to the employer to show you are listening well and in turn, making them feel respected and understood.
Labeling and validating emotions technique allow you to hear what is going on in an organization while remaining neutral.
The accusation audit is a technique that’s used to identify and label probably the worst thing that your counterpart could say about it.

Episode Highlights

“Yeah, so negotiation, you know, it’s really a process of discovery. It really shouldn’t be viewed as a battle. It’s really a process of discovery. It’s kind of that awkward conversation that you should be obligated to have because you know, if you don’t want to advocate for yourself professionally, who will?” – Tim Baker

“And I believe this first stat comes from SHRM, which is the Society for Human Resource Management. So I think this is like the biggest association for like HR and Human Resource personnel in the country. And the stat that I use is that 99% of hiring managers expect prospective hires to negotiate. So if you think about that, you know, the overwhelming majority expect you the prospective hire to negotiate. And they build their initial offers as such.” – Tim Baker

“So typically most jobs, there’s — obviously there’s an application process, there’s interviews, there’s second interviews, there’s maybe on-site visits, there’s kind of looking at all the candidates and then extending offers. If you get to that offer stage, you’re pretty — they’ve identified as you’re the person that they want. So sometimes a little bit of back-and-forth is not going to derail any such deal. So it’s really, really important to understand that.” -Tim Baker

“So when you get that interview, what I say is typically you want to talk less, listen more and learn more. Typically, the person that is talking the most is not in control of the conversation. The one that’s listening and asking good questions is in control.” -Tim Ulbrich

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

(INTRO)

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker, welcome back to the show.

Tim Baker: Yeah, happy to be here. How’s it going, Tim?

Tim Ulbrich: It’s going. Excited to talk negotiation, something we discuss a lot in presentations, a lot I know that you discuss with clients as a part of the financial plan, but we haven’t addressed it directly on the show before. So I’m excited that we get a chance to dig into this topic. And we know that negotiation can carry a lot of power and can be used across the board really in life, right? It could be negotiating terms for a new or existing job position, buying a car, buying a house, negotiating with your kids or spouse — kidding, not kidding as we’ll talk about here in a little bit. So we’re going to focus predominantly on salary negotiation, but really these techniques can be applied to many areas of the financial plan and really life as a whole. So Tim, I know that for you, negotiation is a key piece of the financial plan. And you and our CFPs over at YFP talk about negotiation in the context of financial planning, which I would say is probably not the norm of the financial planning industry and services. So let’s start with this: Why is negotiation such an important piece of the financial plan?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think if we look at YFP’s mission, YFP’s mission is to empower pharmacists to achieve financial freedom. So I think the building blocks of that really is kind of what we do day-in and day-out with clients at YFP Planning. And what I typically, or the way that we typically approach a financial plan is we really want to help the client grow and protect their income, which is the lifeblood of the financial plan. Without income, nothing moves. But we know that probably more importantly than that is grow and protect the balance sheet, the net worth, which means increasing assets efficiently and decreasing liabilities efficiently and ultimately moving the net worth number in the right direction. So those are both quantitative things. But then qualitatively, we want to make sure that we’re keeping all the goals in mind, so grow and protect income and net worth while keep the goals in mind. So to me, that’s our jam, you know? So when I say — when somebody asks me a question like we do the Ask a YFP CFP, and I always say, “Well, it depends.” A lot of it really depends on those foundational, like where are we at with the balance sheet and where do we want to go? Meaning what are our goals? What’s our why? What’s the life plan, what’s a wealthy life for you and how can we support that with the financial plan? So to go back to your question, my belief is that the income is a big part of that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Tim Baker: And what I’ve found working with many, many pharmacists is sometimes pharmacists are not great at advocating for themselves. You know, most of the people that I talk to when we talk about salary negotiation, they’re like, eh, I’m just thankful I have a job, and I’m in agreement with that. But sometimes a little bit of a negotiation and having some of the skills that we’ll talk about today to better advocate for yourself is important. And a lot of this stuff is not necessarily just for salary. It can be for a lot of different things. But to me, what I saw as a need here, same thing like most financial planners don’t walk you through kind of home purchase and what that looks like because most financial planners are working with people in their 50s, 60s and 70s. So that was a need for a lot of our clients who were like, “Hey, Tim, I’m buying this house. I don’t really know where to start. So we provide some education and some recommendations and advice around that. Same thing with salary, I kept seeing like well, maybe I took the job too quickly or I didn’t advocate for myself, so that’s really where we want to provide some education and advice, again, to have a better position from an income perspective.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think it’s a great tool to have in your toolbag, you know. And I think as we’ll talk about here, the goal is not to be an expert negotiator. There’s lots of resources that are out there that can help with this and make it tangible and practical, one of which we’ll draw a lot of the information today, I know you talk with clients, a resource I love, “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss. But I’m glad you mentioned, you know, I think there is often a sentiment — I know I’ve felt in myself where you know what, I’m glad to have a position, I’m glad to be making a good income. But that can be true and you still can be a good person and you still can negotiate and advocate for yourself and the value you bring to the organization.

Tim Baker: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: So I hope folks will hear that and not necessarily think that negotiation is bad and as we’ll talk about here in a moment, I think really can have a significant impact when you think about it as it relates to earnings over your career and what those additional earnings could mean. So Tim, break it down for us. What is negotiation and really, digging further, why is it important?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so negotiation, you know, it’s really a process of discovery. It really shouldn’t be viewed as a battle. It’s really a process of discovery. It’s kind of that awkward conversation that you should be obligated to have because you know, if you don’t want to advocate for yourself professionally, who will? And maybe you have a good mentor or something like that, but to me, the negotiation, again, is really to discover what you want and kind of what your counterpart, which might be a boss or a hiring manager or something like that. And it’s really important because settling for a lower salary can have really major financial consequences, both immediately and down the road. And you typically — raises that you receive are typically based on a percentage of your salary, so hey, we’re going to give you a 3% raise this year, a 5% raise. If you start off with a salary that you’re not happy with, then obviously that’s a problem. Accrue less in retirement savings, so that TSP, that 401k, 403b, again, you typically are going to get some type of match in a lot of cases, and then you’re going to put a percentage. So again, that could potentially be lower. But it’s not just about salary. It can be — I think another mistake that sometimes people make is that they’ll say, oh wow, I was making $125,000 and I’m taking a job that’s paying me $135,000 and they take a major step back on some of the non-salary things like benefits and flex scheduling and time off and things like that. But you know, you really want to make sure that compensation package that you have, you know, you’re happy with. Because underpaid really can make you feel resentful over the long run. So you want to make sure that you’re, again, right now we’re filming in the midst of a pandemic and the economy and the job market is tough, but you still want to advocate for yourself and make sure you’re getting the best compensation package that you can.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and as we’ll talk about here in a little bit, I think if we frame this differently, then maybe our understanding, our preconceived beliefs — you know, you mentioned it’s not a battle, you know, I think the goal is that you’re trying to come to an agreement or an understanding. And as we’ll talk about here, many employers are likely expecting this. And that number, in terms of those that are expecting versus those that are actually engaging in the conversation from an employee standpoint is very different.

Tim Baker: Sure.

Tim Ulbrich: So I think that might help give us confidence to be able to initiate some of those, and we’ll talk about strategies to do that. I do want to give one example, though, Tim, real quick. You had mentioned obviously if somebody earns less and receive small raises or they accrue less in retirement savings, that can have a significant impact. And I went down the rabbit hole prepping for this episode of just looking at a quick example of this where you have two folks that let’s say they both start working at the age of 28, they retire at their 65, so same starting point, same retirement age. Let’s assume they get a 3% cost of living adjustment every year for their career just to keep it simple. The only difference here is that one starts at $100,000 and one starts at $105,000. So because of either what they asked for in negotiations, whatever be the case, one starts $5,000 greater than the other. And if you play this out, same starting age, same ending age, same cost of living adjustments, one starts at a higher point, when it’s all said and done, one individual has about $300,000 more of earnings than the other. And this of course does not include differences that you also have because of higher salary. If you had a match, that would increase, that would compound, that would grow. If you were to switch jobs, you’re at a better point to now negotiate for a higher salary, all other benefits that aren’t included. But the significance of the starting point I think is something to really look at those numbers that often where you start can inform where you’re going, not only from cost of living adjustments but also future employment, right? So we know that where you start if you get a 3% raise, it’s of course going to be based off that number. If you decide to leave that employer and you go to another one, what do they ask you? How much did you make? You’re using that number. So that starting point is so critical, and I hope that new practitioners might even find some confidence in that to be able to engage in discussions knowing how significant those numbers can be over a career. So in that one example, that starting point is a difference of about $300,000. Crazy, right, when you look at it over a long time period.

Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s nuts. And I’d play the devil’s advocate, on the other side of that is again, so much — just like everything else with the financial plan, you can’t look at it in a vacuum. We’ve had clients take a lot less money and really, it was because of the student loans and how that would affect their strategy in terms of forgiveness and things like that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Tim Baker: So it is multifactorial. It’s definitely something that it should really be examined. And I think, again, when you look at the overall context of the financial plan. But to your point, Tim, that starting salary and really how you negotiate throughout the course of your career is going to be utterly important. And again, what we say is — we kind of downplay the income because I think so much of what’s kind of taught is like, oh, six-figure salary, you’ll be OK. And that’s not true. But then it is true that it is the lifeblood of the financial plan, so I think if you have a plan and you’re intentional with what you’re doing, that’s where you can really start making moves with regard to your financial outlook.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I’m glad you said that about salary shouldn’t be looked at in a silo. I mean, just to further that point, you’ve alluded to it already, these numbers don’t matter if there’s other variables that are non-monetary that matter more. Right? Whether that be time off or satisfaction in the workplace, opportunities that you have, feelings of accomplishment. I mean, the whole list of things you can’t necessarily put a number to, I mean, I would argue if those are really important, you’ve got to weigh those against whatever this number would be. And there’s a certain point where the difference in money isn’t worth it if there’s other variables that are involved, which usually there are. Hopefully we can get both, right? Salary and non-salary items.

Tim Baker: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: So interesting stats about negotiation, I’ve heard you present before on this topic, but I’d like you to share with our audience in terms of managers that are expecting hires to negotiate versus those that do. Talk us through some of those as I think it will help us frame and maybe change our perception on employers expecting and our willingness to engage in these conversations.

Tim Baker: Yeah, and I really need to cite this one. And I believe this first stat comes from SHRM, which is the Society for Human Resource Management. So I think this is like the biggest association for like HR and Human Resource personnel in the country. And the stat that I use is that 99% of hiring managers expect prospective hires to negotiate. So if you think about that, you know, the overwhelming majority expect you the prospective hire to negotiate. And they build their initial offers as such. So the example I give to clients is like, hey, we have a position that we could pay anywhere from $110,000 to $130,000, knowing that you know, Tim, if I’m offering this job to you, knowing that you’re probably going to negotiate with me. I’m going to offer it to you for $110,000 knowing that I have a little bit of wiggle room if you kind of come back with a counteroffer. But what a lot of my clients or people do that I talk with is they’ll just say, yes, I found a job, crappy job market, happy to get started, ready to get started. And they’re either overly enthusiastic to accept a job or they’re just afraid that a little bit of negotiation would hurt their outlook. So with that in mind is that you — the offers I think are built in a way that you should be negotiating and trying to, again, advocate for yourself.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and so if people are presenting positions often with a range in salary expecting negotiation, I hope that gives folks some confidence in OK, that’s probably expected and maybe shifts some of the perception away from, this whole thing could fall apart, which it could, right? At any given point in time, especially depending on the way you conduct yourself in that negotiation, which I think is really, really important to consider. But I think what we want to try to avoid, Tim, back to a comment you made earlier, is any resentment as well. I mean, if we think about this from a relationship standpoint, we want the employee to feel valued, and we want the employer to have a shot at retaining this individual long-term. So it’s a two-way relationship.

Tim Baker: Yeah, and it kind of comes up to where we were talking about what is the goal of negotiation. And really, the goal of negotiation is to come to some type of agreement.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: The problem with that is that people are involved in this. And we as people are emotional beings, so if we feel like that we’re treated unfairly or we don’t feel safe and secure or if we’re not in control of the conversation, our emotions can get the best of us. So that’s important. So again, there’s some techniques that you can utilize to kind of mitigate that. But you know, to allude to your point about negotiating, the fear to kind of potentially mess up the deal, there’s a stat that says 32% don’t negotiate because they’re too worried about losing the job offer.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: I know, Tim, like we can attest to this because with our growth at YFP, we’ve definitely done some human resourcing, to use that as a verb, and hiring and things like that of late. And I’ve got to say that the — I think that some of this can be unfounded just because there’s just so much blood, sweat and tears that goes into finding the right people to kind of surround yourself with and bring into an organization that to me, a little bit of back-and-forth is not going to ultimately lose the job. So typically most jobs, there’s — obviously there’s an application process, there’s interviews, there’s second interviews, there’s maybe on-site visits, there’s kind of looking at all the candidates and then extending offers. If you get to that offer stage, you’re pretty — they’ve identified as you’re the person that they want. So sometimes a little bit of back-and-forth is not going to derail any such deal. So it’s really, really important to understand that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and as the employer, I mean, we’ve all heard about the cost statistics around retention. So as an employer, when I find that person, I want to retain them. That’s my goal, right? I want to find good talent, I want to retain good talent. So I certainly don’t want somebody being resentful about the work that they’re doing, the pay that they have, and so I think if we can work some of that out before beginning, come to an agreement, it’s a good fit for us, good fit for them, I think it’s also going to help the benefit of hopefully the long-term relationship of that engagement. So it’s one thing to say we should be doing it. It’s another thing to say, well how do we actually do this? What are some tips and tricks for negotiation? So I thought it would be helpful if we could walk through some of the stages of negotiation. And through those stages, we can talk, as well as beyond that, what are some actual strategies to negotiation. Again, another shoutout to “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss. I think he does an awesome job of teaching these strategies in a way that really helps them come alive and are memorable.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: So Tim, let’s talk about the first stage, the interview stage, and what are some strategies that those listening can take when it comes to negotiation in this stage.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so when I present these concepts to a client, I kind of said that the four stages of negotiation are fairly vanilla, you know? And the first one is that interview. So when you get that interview, what I say is typically you want to talk less, listen more and learn more. Typically, the person that is talking the most is not in control of the conversation. The one that’s listening and asking good questions is in control. And I kind of think back to some of our recent hires, and you know, the people that we identified as like top candidates, I’m like, man, their interviews went really well. And when I actually think back and slow down, it’s really — I think that they went really well because it’s really that person asking good questions and then me just talking. And that’s like the perception. So in that case, the candidate was asking us good questions and we’re like, yeah, this was a great interview because I like to hear myself talk or I just get really excited about what we’re doing at YFP. So I think if you can really focus on your counterpart, focus on the organization, whether it’s the hospital or whatever it is and learn and then really pivot to the value that you bring, I think that’s going to be most important. So you know, understanding what some of their pain points are, whether it’s retention or maybe some type of care issue or whatever that may be, you can kind of use that to your advantage as you’re kind of going through the different stages of negotiation. But the more that the other person talks, the better. I would say in the interview stage, one of the things that often comes up that can come up fairly soon is the question about salary. And you know, sometimes that is — it’s kind of like a time savings. So it’s a “Hey, Tim, what are you looking for in salary?” If you throw out a number that’s way too high, I’m not even going to waste my time. And what I tell clients is like you typically, you want to — and we’ll talk about anchoring. You really want to avoid throwing a number out for a variety of reasons. So one of the deflections you can use is, “Hey, I appreciate the question, but I’m really trying to figure out if I’d be a good fit for your organization. Let’s talk about salary when the time comes.” Or the other piece of it is it’s just you’re not in the business of offering yourself a job. And what I mean by that it’s their job to basically provide an offer. So, “Hey, my current employer doesn’t really allow me to kind of reveal that kind of information. What did you have in mind?” Or, “We know that pharmacy is a small business, and I’m sure your budget is reasonable. What did you have in mind?”

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Tim Baker: So at the end of the day, it’s their job to extend the offer, not you to kind of negotiate against yourself, which can happen. You know? I had — we signed on a client here at YFP Planning yesterday, and we were talking about negotiation. I think it had to do with a tax issue. And you know, he basically said this is what he was looking for and when he got into the organization, I think he saw the number that was budgeted for it, and it was a lot more. So again, if you can deflect that — and I tell a story, when I first got out of the Army, I kind of knew this. But when I first got out of the Army, I was interviewing for jobs. I was in an interview, and I deflected and I think the guy asked me again, and I deflected. I think he asked me for like — maybe he asked me four times, and I just wound up giving him a range that was like obnoxious, $100,000-200,000 or something like that. But to me, that — and the interview didn’t go well after that, but to me, it was more about clearing the slate instead of actually learning about me and seeing if I was a good fit. So you never want to lie if they ask about your current salary, you never want to lie. But you definitely want to deflect and move to things like OK, can I potentially be a good fit for your organization and then go from there.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think deflection takes practice, right?

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: I don’t think that comes natural to many of us.

Tim Baker: Absolutely. Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: This reminds me, so talk less, listen more for any Hamilton folks we have out there, which is playing 24/7 in my house these days, the soundtrack. I’m not going to sing right now, but talk less, smile more, don’t let them know what you’re against or what you’re for. So I think that’s a good connection there to the interview stage. So next hopefully comes good news, company wants to hire you, makes an offer. So Tim, talk us through this stage. What should we be remembering when we actually have an offer on the table?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think you definitely want to be appreciative and thankful. Again, when a company gets to a point where they’re an extending you an offer, that’s huge. I remember when I got, again, my first offer out of the Army — because again, you didn’t really have a choice when you’re in the Army. Well, I guess you do have a choice, but they’re not like, “Here’s a written offer for your employment in this platoon somewhere in Iraq.” But I remember getting the first offer. I’m like, man, this is awesome. Shows your salary and the benefits and things like that, so you want to be appreciable and thankful — appreciative and thankful. You don’t want to be — you want to be excited but not too overexcited. So you don’t want to appear to be desperate. What I tell clients, I think the biggest piece here is make sure you get it in writing. And I have a story that I tell because if it’s not in writing, and what I essentially said is it didn’t happen. So again, using some personal experience here, first job out of the Army, I had negotiated basically an extra week of vacation because I didn’t want to take a step back in that regard. And I got the offer, and the extra week wasn’t there. So I talked to my future boss about it, and he said, “You know what, I don’t want to go back to headquarters and ruffle some feathers, so why don’t we just take care of that on site here?” And this was the job I had in Columbus, Ohio. And I said, “Yeah, OK, I don’t really want to ruffle feathers either.” The problem with that was when he got replaced, when he was terminated eight months later, that currency burned up fairly quickly. So I didn’t have that extra week of vacation. So if it’s not written down, it never happened. So you want to make sure that you get it in writing and really go over that written offer extensively. So some employers, they’ll extend an offer, and they want a decision right away. I would walk away from that. To me, a job change or something of that magnitude, I think it warrants a 24-, if not a minimum 48-hour timeframe for you to kind of mull it over. And this is typically where I come in and help clients because they’ll say, “Hey, Tim, I got this offer. What do you think?” And we go through it and we look at benefits and we look at the total compensation package and things like that. But you want to ask for a time, some time to review everything. And then definitely adhere to the agreed-upon deadline to basically provide an answer or a counteroffer or whatever the next step is for you.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think too, the advice to get it in writing helps buy you time, you know? I think you ask for it anyways. And I think the way you approach this conversation, you’re setting up the counteroffer, right? So the tone that you’re using, it’s not about being arrogant here, it’s not about acting like you’re not excited at all. I think you can strike that balance between you’re appreciative, you’re thankful, you’re continuing to assess if it’s a good fit for you and the organization, you want some time, you want it in writing, and you’re beginning to set the stage. And I think human behavior, right, says if something is either on the table or pulled away slightly, the other party wants it a little bit more, right?

Tim Baker: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: So if I’m the employer and I really want someone and I’m all excited about the offer and I’m hoping they’re going to say yes and they say, “Hey, I’m really thankful for the offer. I’m excited about what you guys are doing. I need some time to think about x, y and z,” or “I’m really thinking through x, y or z,” like all of a sudden, that makes me want them more. You know?

Tim Baker: Sure.

Tim Ulbrich: So I think there’s value in setting up what is that counteroffer. So talk to us about the counteroffer, Tim. Break it down and some strategies to think about in this portion.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so you know, the counteroffer is I would say — the majority of the time, you should counter in some way. I think you’re expected to make a counter. And again, we kind of back that up with some stats. But you also, you need to know when not to kind of continue to go back to the negotiating table or when you’re asking or overasking. So I think research is going to be a good part of that. And what I tell clients is like, I can give them a very non-scientific — I’ve worked with so many pharmacists that I can kind of say, eh, that sounds low for this community pharmacy industry, or whatever, hospital, in this area. So your network, which could be someone like me, it could be colleagues, but it could also be things like Glass Door, Indeed, Salary.com. So you want to make sure that your offer, your counteroffer is backed up in some type of fact. And really, knowing how to maximize your leverage. So if you are — if you do receive more than one substantial offer from multiple employers, negotiating may be appropriate if the two positions are comparable. Or if you have tangible evidence that the salary is too low, you have a strong position to negotiate. So I had a client that knew that newly hired pharmacists were being paid more than she was, and she had the evidence to show that and basically they went back and did a nice adjustment. But again, I think as you go through — the way that we kind of do this with clients is we kind of go through the entire letter and the benefits. And I basically just highlight things and have questions about match or vacation time or salary, things like that. And then we start constructing it from there. So if you look at, again, the thing where most people will start is salary is you really want to give — when you counter, you really want to give a salary range rather than like a number. So what I say is, if you say, “Hey, Tim, I really want to make $100,000.” I kind of said it’s almost like the Big Bad Wolf that blows the house down. Like all of those zeros, there’s no substance to that. But if you said, “Hey, I really want to make $105,985,” the Journal of the Experimental Social Psychology says that using a precise number instead of a rounded number gives it a more potent anchor.

Tim Ulbrich: You’ve done your homework, right?

Tim Baker: Yeah. You know what you’re worth, you know what the position’s worth, it’s giving the appearance of research. So I kind of like — it’s kind of like the Zach Galfinakis meme that has all of the equations that are floating, it’s kind of like that. But the $100,000, you can just blow that house over. So and I think — so once you figure out that number, then you kind of want to range it. So they say if you give a range of a salary, then it opens up room for discussion and it shows the employer that you have flexibility. And it gives you some cushion in case you think that you’re asking for a little bit too high. So that’s going to be really, really important is to provide kind of precise numbers in a range. And oh, by the way, I want to be paid at the upper echelon of that.

Tim Ulbrich: So real quick on that, you mentioned before the concept of anchoring, and I want to spend some time here as you’re talking about a range. So dig into that further, what that means in terms of if I’m given a range, how does anchoring fit into that?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so we kind of talk about this more when we kind of talk some of the tools and the behavior of negotiation. But the range — so when we talk about like anchoring, so anchoring is actually — it’s a bias. So anchoring bias describes the common tendency to give too much weight to the first number. So again, if I can invite the listener to imagine an equation, and the equation is 5x4x3x2x1. And that’s in your mind’s eye. And then you clear the slate, and now you imagine this equation: 1x2x3x4x5. Now, if I show the average person and I just flash that number up, the first number — the first equation that starts with 5 and the second equation that starts with 1, we know that those things equal the same thing. But in the first equation, we see the 5 first, so it creates this anchor, creates this belief in us that that number is actually higher.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, bigger, yeah.

Tim Baker: So the idea of anchoring is typically that that number that we see really is a — has a major influence, that first number is a major influence over where the negotiation goes. So you can kind of get into the whole idea of factoring your knowledge of the zone of possible agreement, which is often called ZOPA. So that’s the range of options that should be acceptable for both sides, and then kind of assessing your side of that and then your other party’s anchor in that. So there’s lots of things that kind of go into anchoring, but we did this recently with a client where I think they were offered somewhere in like the $110,000-112,000 area. And she’s like, I really want to get paid closer to like $117,000-118,000. So we basically in the counteroffer, we said, “Hey, thanks for the offer.” And we did something called an accusation, which we can talk about in a second. But “Thanks for the counteroffer, but I’m really looking to make between” — you know, I think we said something like $116,598 to all the way up into the $120,000s. And they actually brought her up to I think she was at $117,000 and change. So it actually brought her up closer to that $118,000. So using that range and kind of that range as a good anchoring position to help the negotiation.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, love it.

Tim Baker: There’s lots of different things that kind of go into anchoring in terms of extreme anchoring and a lot of that stuff that they talk about in the book, but again, that kind of goes back to that first number being thrown out there can be really, really integral. And again, when you couple that on top of hey, it’s their job to make you an offer, not the other way around, you have to really learn how to deflect that and know how to position yourself in those negotiations. But that’s really the counteroffer. And what I would say to kind of just wrap up the counteroffer is embrace the silence.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: So Tim, there was silence there, and I’m like, I want to fill the void. And I do this with clients when we talk about mirroring and things like that. Like people are uncomfortable with silence. And what he talks about in the book, which I would 100% — this is really kind of a tip of the cap to Chris Voss and his book, which I love, I read probably at least once a year, where he talks about embracing the silence. We as people are conditioned to fill silences. So he talks about sometimes people will negotiate against themselves. If you just sit there and you say, “Uh huh. That’s interesting.” And then in the counter, just be pleasantly persistent on the non-salary terms, which can be both subjective and objective in terms of what you’re looking for in that position.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I want to make sure we don’t lose that. We’re talking a lot about salary, but again, as we mentioned at the beginning, really try to not only understand but fit what’s the value of those non-salary terms. So this could be everything from paid time off to obviously other benefits, whether that be health or retirement. This of course could be culture of the organization, whether it’s that specific site, the broader organization, opportunities for advancement.

Tim Baker: Mentorship. Yep. Mentorship.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes, yes.

Tim Baker: Yep, all of that.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think what you hear from folks — I know I’ve felt in my own personal career, with each year that goes on, I value salary, but salary means less and those other things mean more. And so as you’re looking at let’s just say two offers, as one example, let’s say they’re $5,000 apart. I’m not saying you give on salary, but how do you factor in these other variables.

Tim Baker: Yeah. Well, and I think too — and this is kind of next level with this, and I’ll give you some examples to cite it. I think another thing to potentially do when you are countering and when you’re shifting to some of maybe the non-salary stuff is really took a hard look at your potential employer or even your current employer if you’re an incumbent and you’re being reviewed and you’re just advocating for a better compensation, is look at the company’s mission and values. So the example I give is like when Shay and I got pregnant with Liam, she didn’t have a maternity leave benefit. And when she was being reviewed, we kind of invoked the company — and I think it’s like work-life balance and things like that — and we’re like, “Well, how can you say that and not back that up?” And again, we did it tactfully. Because you’re almost like negotiating against yourself, right? So when I present this to clients, the Spiderman meme where two Spidermans are pointing at each other, and she was able to negotiate a better, a maternity — and we look at us, and I give these, one of our values is encouraging growth and development. So if an employee says, hey, and they make a case that I really want to do this, it’s almost like we’re negotiating against ourselves. So I think if you can — one, I think it shows again the research and that you’re really interested and plugged into what the organization is doing — but then I think you’re leveraging the company against itself in some ways because you’re almost negotiating against well, yeah, we put these on the wall as something that we believe in. But we’re not going to support it or you know. Or at the very least, it plants a seed. And that’s what I say is sometimes with clients, we do strike out. It is hard to move the needle sometimes, but at least one, we’ve got an iteration under our belts where we are negotiation, and two, we’ve planted a seed with that employer — assuming that they took the job anyway — that says OK, these are things that are kind of important to me that we’re going to talk about again and things like that. So I think that’s huge.

Tim Ulbrich: Good stuff. So let’s talk about some tools that we can use for negotiation. And again, many of these are covered in more detail in the book and other resources, which we’ll link to in the show notes. I just want to hit on a few of these. Let’s talk about mirroring, accusation audits, and the importance of getting a “That’s right” while you’re in these conversations. And we’ll leave our listeners to dig deeper in some of the other areas. So talk to us about mirroring. What is it? And kind of give us the example and strategies of mirroring.

Tim Baker: Yeah, and I would actually — Tim, what I would do is I would actually back up because I think probably one of the most important tools that are there I think is the calibrated question. So that’s one of the first things that he talks — and the reason, so what is a calibrated question? So a calibrated question is a question with really no fixed answer that gives the illusion of control. So the answer, however, is kind of constrained by that question. And you, the person that’s asking the question, has control of the conversation. So I give the example, when we moved into our house after we renovated it — so brand new house. I walk into my daughter’s room, I think she was 4 at the time, and she’s coloring on the wall in red crayons. And I’m from Jersey, so I say “crown” not “crayon.” And I look at her, and I say, “Olivia, why are you doing that?” And she sees how upset I am and mad and she just starts crying. And there’s no negotiation from there.

Tim Ulbrich: Negotiation over.

Tim Baker: There’s no exchange of information. So in an alternate reality, in an alternate reality, what I should have done is said, “Olivia, what caused you to do that?” So you’re basically blasting — instead of why — why is very accusatory — you’re like, the how and the what questions are good. So and of course she would say, “Well, Daddy, I ran out of paper, so the wall is the next best thing.” So the use of — and having these calibrated questions in your back pocket, I think again buys you some time and really I think frames the conversation with your counterpart well. So using words like “how” and “what” and avoiding things like “why,” “when,” “who.” So, “What about this works, doesn’t work for you?” “How can we make this better for us?” “How do you want to proceed?” “How can we solve this problem?” “What’s the biggest challenge you face?” These are all — “How does this look to you?” — these are all calibrated questions that again, as you’re kind of going back and forth, you can kind of lean on. So have good how and what questions. To kind of answer the question about mirroring, as you’re asking these questions, you’re mirroring your counterpart. So what mirroring, the scientific term is called isopraxism. But he defines and says “the real-life Jedi mind trick.” This causes vomiting of information is what he says. So you know, these are not the droids you’re looking for. So what you essentially is you repeat back the last 1-3 words or the critical words of your counterpart’s sentence, your counterpart’s sentence. So this is me mirroring myself. Yeah, well you want to repeat back because you want them to reveal more information. And you want to build rapport and have that curiosity of kind of what is the other person thinking so you can, again, come to an agreement. Come to an agreement? Yeah. So at the end of the day, the purpose — so this is mirroring. So I’ll show you a funny story. I practice this on my wife sometimes, who does not have a problem speaking. But sometimes the counterpart is —

Tim Ulbrich: She’s listening, by the way.

Tim Baker: Yeah, exactly. So I’ll probably be in trouble. But so I basically just for our conversation, just mirror back exactly what she’s saying. And you can do this physically. You can cross your legs or your arms or whatever that looks like. But what he talks about more is with words. And you know, I’ll basically just mirror back my wife, and she — at the end of the conversation, she’ll say something like, “Man, I feel like you really listened to me.” And I laugh about that because I’m just really repeating back. But if you think about it, I did. Because for you to be able to do that, you really do have to listen. So mirroring, again, if you’re just repeating back, you really start to uncover more of what your counterpart is thinking because often, like what comes out of our mouth the first or even second time is just smoke. So really uncovering that. One of the things he talks about is labeling where this is kind of the — it’s described as the method of validating one’s emotion by acknowledging it. So, “It seems like you’re really concerned about patient care. It seems like you’re really concerned about the organization’s retention of talent. So what you’re doing is that you’re using neutral statements that don’t involve the use of “I” or “we.” So it’s not necessarily accusatory. And then you are — same with the mirror. You really want to not step on your mirror. You want to not stop on your label and really invite the other person to say, “Yeah, I’m just really frustrated by this or that.” So labeling is really important to basically defuse the power, the negative emotion, and really allow you to remain neutral and kind of find out more about that. So that’s super important.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think with both of those, Tim, as you were talking, it connects well back to what we mentioned earlier of talk less, listen more.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Like you’re really getting more information out, right, from a situation that can be guarded, you know, people are trying to be guarded. And I think more information could lead hopefully to a more fruitful negotiation. What about the accusation audit?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so the accusation audit, it’s one of my favorites, kind of similar with calibrated questions. I typically will tell clients, I’m like, “Hey, if you don’t learn anything from this, I would say have some calibrated questions in your back pocket and have a good accusation audit at the ready.” And we typically will use the accusation audit to kind of frame up a counteroffer. So it kind — so before I give you the example, the accusation audit is a technique that’s used to identify and label probably like the worst thing that your counterpart could say about it. So this is all the head trash that’s going on of why I don’t want to negotiate. It’s like, ah, they’re going to think that I’m overasking or I’m greedy, all those things that you’re thinking. So you’re really just pointing to the elephant in the room and you’re just trying to take this thing out and really let the air out of the room where a lot of people just get so nervous about this. So a good accusation audit is, “Hey, Tim, I really appreciate the offer of $100,000 to work with your organization. You’re probably going to think that I’m the greediest person on Planet Earth, but I was really looking for this to that.”

Tim Ulbrich: That’s a great line. Great line.

Tim Baker: Or, “You’re probably thinking that I’m asking way too much,” or, “You’re probably thinking that I’m way underqualified for this position, but here’s what I’m thinking.”

Tim Ulbrich: “No. No, no, no, Tim.”

Tim Baker: Right. So when someone says that to me, I’m like, “No. I don’t think that.” And what often happens — and again, clients have told me this — what often happens is that the person, the counterpart that they’re working with, like they’re recruited as — one person said, one client was like, “Oh, we’re going to find you more money. We’re going to figure it out.” So they like — so when someone says that to you, just think about how you would feel. “Oh, I don’t think that at all.” And then it just kind of lets the air out of the room. So you basically preface your counteroffer with like the worst thing they could say about you, and then they typically say, “That’s not true at all.”

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: So I love the accusation audit. So simple, it’s kind of easy to remember. And I think it just lays I think the groundwork for just great conversation and hopefully a resolution.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. And then let’s wrap up with the goal of getting to a “That’s right.” I remember when I was listening to an interview with Chris Voss, this was a part that I heard and I thought, wow, that’s so powerful. If you can get — in the midst of this negotiation, if we can get to a “Yeah, that’s right,” the impact that could have on the impact.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so he kind of talks about it like kind of putting all of these different tools together. So it’s mirroring and labeling and kind of using I think what he calls minimal encouragement, “Uh huh,” “I see,” kind of paraphrasing what you hear from your counterpart. And then really wait for — it’s like, “Hey, did I get that right? Am I tracking?” And what you’re really looking for is a “That’s right.” He said that’s even better than a “Yes.” So one of the examples I give is when I speak with prospective clients, we’re talking about my student loans and my investment portfolio and I’m doing real budgeting, and I got a sold a life insurance policy that I think isn’t great for me. And so we go through all of these different parts of the financial plan. And I’m basically summarizing back what they’re saying. And I say, you know, at the end of it — so I’m summarizing 30 minutes of conversation. And I’m saying, “Did I get that right?” And they’re like, “Yeah, that’s right. You’re a great listener,” which I have to record for my wife sometimes because she doesn’t agree with me. So that’s what you’re looking for is “Yeah, that’s right.” This person has heard, message sent, heard, understand me. He says if you get a “You’re right,” so sometimes, again, I keep talking about my wife, I’m like, “Hey, we have to do a better job of saving for retirement,” and she’s like, “You’re right.” That’s really code for “Shut up and go away.” So it’s a “That’s right” really what we’re looking for.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome.

Tim Baker: So that’s very powerful.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great stuff. And really, just a great overall summary of some tips within the negotiation process, the steps of the negotiation process, how it fits into the financial plan. We hope folks walk away with that and just a good reminder of our comprehensive financial planning services that we do at YFP Planning. This is a great example of when we say “comprehensive,” we mean it. So it’s not just investments, it’s not just student loans. It’s really every part of the financial plan. Anything that has a dollar sign on it, we want our clients to be in conversation and working with our financial planners to make sure we’re optimizing that and looking at all parts of one’s financial plan. And here, negotiation is a good example of that. So we’ve referenced lots of resources, main one we talked about here today was “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss. We will link to that in our show notes. And as a reminder to access the show notes, you can go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/podcast, find this week’s episode, click on that and you’ll be able to access a transcription of the episode as well as the show notes and the resources. And don’t forget to join our Facebook group, the Your Financial Pharmacist Facebook group, over 6,000 members strong, pharmacy professionals all across the country committed to helping one another on their own path and walk towards financial freedom. And last but not least, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the podcast, please leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show each and every week. Have a great rest of your day.

Tim Ulbrich: As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 338: Stepping Into Your Inner Radiance in 2024 with Dr. Christina Fontana

Posted on December 14, 2023December 13, 2023 by YFP Media

Dr. Christina Fontana, creator of The Pharmacist Coach, shares her journey from pharmacy to entrepreneurship, healing from trauma, and setting goals.

Episode Summary

In this episode of the YFP Podcast, we welcome Dr. Christina Fontana, PharmD, the visionary creator of The Pharmacist Coach. Dr. Fontana shares her inspiring journey from pharmacy to entrepreneurship, revealing the impact of her early experiences and the resilience that fueled her pursuit of a purpose-driven path. From navigating personal challenges like eating disorders and anxiety to healing from childhood trauma, Dr. Fontana discusses her commitment to inner work and counseling as essential components of her transformative process. The episode also explores the intertwined nature of personal growth and business development, with insights into Dr. Fontana’s methodology of “structured flexibility.” The discussion concludes with a focus on mindset and goal-setting strategies for pharmacists, encouraging alignment with one’s true desires and an embodiment of authenticity. Tune in for a captivating exploration of career empowerment, resilience, and setting ambitious goals for the year ahead.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Christina Fontana, AKA The Pharmacist Coach, is a pharmacist, holistic healer, rapid transformation business coach, speaker, and 5-time author. She helps spiritually-driven women to ‘Reignite Your Light’ and shine in your brilliance, confidence, and true essence.

She started her entrepreneurial journey 11 years ago being disempowered, homelessness, broke, with eating disorders, PTSD, and anxiety and has since transformed, turning her pain into purpose, empowering women all over the world to step into more purpose, power, and prosperity.

Over the last 11 years, Dr. Christina has been providing uplifting, transformational content through her Youtube videos, books, courses, programs, and Conferences. Her mission is to empower more healers and business owners unlock their innate gifts to create a domino effect of healing on the world.

Key Points From the Episode

Career, trauma, and entrepreneurship with Dr. Christina Fontana.
Career journey and goal setting in pharmacy. [1:53]
Eating disorders, perfectionism, and self-discovery in pharmacy school. [5:06]
Trauma, intuition, and decision-making. [11:19]
Healing from childhood trauma and inner work for personal growth. [16:00]
Personal growth and business development. [19:57]
Personal growth through entrepreneurship and parenting. [28:19]
Mindset and goal setting for pharmacists. [32:20]
Setting goals and being flexible in entrepreneurship. [39:38]

Episode Highlights

“All of these tools that I’ve learned throughout the years, I now help people with. And someone I was I was working at a retreat one time, and somebody came up to me, they’re like, You should call it like rapid transformation, because people shift so quickly, because I, because I’m so intuitive. And I’ve developed that muscle so much within myself, I can look at someone and say, okay, and coach them and ask them these questions that are going to draw out of them.” – Dr. Christina Fontana [17:44]

“I grew up in a very suppressive environment, and it doesn’t allow for you to tap into who you really are, the creativity, the gifts and that’s why I bring this work into helping entrepreneurs because if you’re suppressed, you’re not going to show up fully self expressed when you give a talk, when you go to put your message out there this work is so much of you know, the inner work, but also the practical strategy of how do I bring all of who I am to the table when I am speaking, so that I show up with power, conviction. And that’s how you influence people because then they know you care, they see the passion that you have. And that’s how you start to create a domino effect of healing in the world. Which is really why I believe I’m here is at the root cause it’s to be a beacon of light for other people and that’s why I’m so vulnerable in my story.” – Dr. Christina Fontana [18:45]

“Translate your gifts into gold.” -Dr. Christina Fontana [21:38]

“But when you when you embody that version of yourself, like tapping into the energy of this is what I want this is who would I have to be to achieve that goal? Because there’s usually an evolution or a next version of yourself, right? Maybe a higher version of yourself? What would that be? And feeling into that frequency?” -Dr. Christina Fontana 35:28

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I welcome Dr. Christina Fontana, creator of The Pharmacist Coach. We talk about her career journey in a pharmacy, her trauma experience growing up in an abusive household and how that shaped who she is today, and her entrepreneurial journey focused on empowering others to transform their lives reveal their inner radiance and step into more energy, confidence and power. We then wrap up the show by discussing strategies for getting in the right mindset to set big goals for 2024. Let’s hear a brief message from YFP team member Justin Woods, and then we’ll jump into my interview with Dr. Christina Fontana.

AD SPOT 00:45

This is Justin Woods from the YFP team with a quick message before the show. If you listen to the YFP Podcast, you may learn something every now and then, either from Tim Ulbrich, Tim Baker, or one of our guests. A lot of people listen to the show, but they may not execute or implement the things they learned. As pharmacists, we know the impact of non-adherence on patient outcomes and their overall well being. As a pharmacist, myself and part of the YFP team. I talk with pharmacists every day who are confused about how to implement financial knowledge. Pharmacists share with me that they’re treading water financially, maybe took a DIY approach, reached a plateau and are confused about what to do next. Or those who worked for decades can see the light at the end of the tunnel, and feel uncertain about how the next chapter will unfold. If that sounds like you, one, it is not uncommon to feel that way. And two, does it make sense for us to have a conversation to see if YFP Planning can help you visit YFPplanning.com or follow the link in the Show Notes to find a time that works for your schedule.

Tim Ulbrich 01:50

Christina, welcome to the show.

Dr. Christina Fontana 01:53

Thank you so much. We’re here on a Monday morning and it’s raining. So, bring in the sunshine.

Tim Ulbrich 01:58

It’s a great way to start a Monday, especially when as you mentioned it’s cloudy, it’s rainy, it’s cold, but you very much have the holiday spirit wearing your your polar bear gear. I love that. And I know the energy you’re going to bring to the show is going to light lighten the mood that has been set by the outside weather. So I’m really looking forward to this opportunity to interview you. We’re going to unpack your career journey, we’ll talk about your entrepreneurial journey. And then I’m gonna pick your brain about advice you would have for our community listening about how you think about goal setting, as well as how you coach others on goal setting as we get ready to turn the page onto 2024. So let’s start with your career journey in pharmacy. What led you into the profession? Where did you go to pharmacy school? And what was some of the work that you did upon graduation?

Dr. Christina Fontana 02:45

Yeah, so my dad was a pharmacist. I’m from a family full of pharmacists. So my uncle, my aunt, my sister, my dad, we all went to St. John’s University and I grew up working in my dad’s store back from when I was like three years old, sweeping the floors, helping people find, you know, cards for their granddaughter, working the register. Really, I learned my people skills, my dad would always say, Alright, go talk to that person. Go help that person, go sweep the floor. And I think that those early experiences really helped me to kind of plant those seeds of number one customer service. My dad was, he knew everybody’s name. He knew like, what every customer, what their kids’ names were, what sports they were in. And I just would watch him in awe and be like, Wow, he’s just so…how do you know all this and then he knew all the drugs too in the back. You’re amazing. So I was both in awe of my father, but also extremely terrified of him because he was a strong Italian dad, very strict, very controlling. And I actually grew up and I’m very open about this with a lot of abuse. So physical and mental, emotional. I loved my dad and I still do to this day. And I see now that that was an experience that I went through to strengthen my character to be who I am today. And I’ve gone through a lot of healing through that and but like kind of back to what you know, back at the pharmacy, so there was all of that going on. So like I loved him, I admired him. He taught me so much and he was so charismatic, intelligent. And so I absorbed all of that I was like a sponge, you know, from a very early age. And I knew in those interactions with people that were at the counter. That’s really where I like loved talking to people and hearing about their stories or what they were doing for the day. I grew to love people. And I just knew in my heart like I felt this, this rush in my body whenever someone was like, “Oh my God, you really helped me!” I was like, This is my purpose and so from probably around 13-14 years old, I knew that I wanted to help people. And so in my mind, I was like, oh, pharmacy. So the day that I got into pharmacy school, I feel like my whole world opened up, I was so excited. It was like this whole new adventure. And at the same time, there was this internal struggle that was happening within me. So I had an eating disorder in high school where, you know, I was anorexic. Put a lot of pressure on myself. Highly perfectionistic. Does this sound familiar, pharmacists, right? And so my trauma showed up in my body as an eating disorder high, you know, high levels of anxiety. I was a high performer, you know, like, I did kick line dance, all these different things, all throughout my childhood. Because that was what I thought I had to be in order to be loved by and accepted by my family. And so I went through pharmacy school, my head was down, you know, I, I actually developed a different eating disorder at that time. So it was night eating syndrome. That’s a whole other story. But essentially, what I learned was that my going through my healing journey, my nervous system was so overloaded from all of that trauma, the high performing, trying to be perfect, all of those things, that eventually had to come out somewhere because I suppressed my emotions. And you and I could talk about this for hours. But fast forward to kind of as I was going through pharmacy school, I was kind of struggling internally with all of this, you know, my eating disorder, anxiety, it just got compounded because it’s so much pressure to be in pharmacy school to make sure that you’re, you know, making the most out of your social time and, you know, the commute and all of the other things that come with being, you know, in pharmacy school, that pressure. So eventually, I got to the end of my career, or my, my time at St. John’s. And I started to look at all of these different opportunities. And I was really excited about pursuing a residency. And so I, I told my, my family, and I knew they weren’t going to be happy about it, because again, my dad owned this pharmacy and groomed me and, you know, helped me for years, and I just said, I’m like, I want to do this other path. And when I said that, he was not happy, because again, I was a people pleaser, I did whatever my parents said. I was a good girl, all of that. And so what I was, what he was saying back to me was like, you know, how could you do this to us? Like, you’re betraying us, you know, I helped you blah, blah, blah. And I didn’t care. For the first time in my life, I just felt it in my gut. And I think it was the dynamic to have probably somewhat of a toxic environment that I was already in, in that pharmacy setting. Combined with this drive that I had in my in this, again, I felt that feeling in my heart, like this is what I’m supposed to be doing. And so I always say to people, you know, I know, you have to use logic, of course, but also using your intuition like what feels aligned and right to me, that was probably the first time in my life that I actually let that voice be louder than the fear of what are they going to say I have to be perfect all that. So I did, I wound up pursuing the residency and living in that in my parents house with walking on eggshells and feeling like I couldn’t really, like tell them what was happening because I had to go to mid-year and I had to like, develop a CV for the first time and business cards and all of that. And I actually didn’t get any of my top five choices, because you have to pick five residencies that you want to match with. And I was like, devastated. And I didn’t know what to do. So I was talking to one of my professors at St. John’s one day, and she’s like, “oh, like, why don’t you try through the scramble. There’s a King’s Pharmacy in Brooklyn that I think I saw it didn’t match.” So I was like, let’s see if this goes. I went and interviewed and I got the call that I got this residency. But that was the beginning of the crumble of my life because that was when I got kicked out of my house. I my parents pretty much disowned me and you know, all of my stuff was thrown out onto the lawn- hangers, clothes, you know, everything that was my life, from my childhood room, where I was still living at home with them was literally purged onto the lawn. So all my neighbors were probably like, what is happening right now? So, I literally had to pick up the pieces of my life and start fresh like that was my rock bottom. At that time, I was taking anxiety medication. My life was so unworkable, because I wasn’t really speaking my truth. And all of these patterns that people pleasing, the perfectionism, the unworthiness that I had, it all kind of culminated into this moment where I was like, I’m choosing this, I’m choosing this new path. I don’t care how scary it is. And I remember looking up at the sky, and I just was like, it’s gonna be okay. I just had this feeling in my heart that even though my life was a mess, physically, everything was all over the lawn. And, you know, I couldn’t, I wasn’t even allowed back in the house. And I got fired from my dad’s pharmacy that day. So that was like one thing after the other. And by the way, it was like April of right when I was about to graduate pharmacy school. And so I was about to start a residency, I had two months left of pharmacy school, I still had to take my board exams. I had no job, I had not much money in a bank account, and I was living out of my car. And in that moment, like I said, I knew I was like, I can do this. I just had, I don’t know if it was God, if it was a strength, something within me, I just knew that I had made the right decision. And there had been so much bullying and abuse, and I was like, I’m done with this. So anyway, fast forward. And tell me when…

Tim Ulbrich 11:19

Yeah, good. I’ve got so many questions, but this is good. Finish your journey here.

Dr. Christina Fontana 11:23

Yep. So So there’s so much more, you know, that was the beginning of my entrepreneurial journey really, was getting into that residency, because it really opened up my eyes to all of the different possibilities within pharmacy, and I, it was so stressful, I cried a lot, I had so much PTSD in my body now that I look back on it. But I don’t regret that decision of doing a residency because again, it opened up my eyes to like, I started teaching diabetes classes, I was going through Integrative Nutrition at the same time, and like healing my body of looking at the deeper root of disease and why people get sick. And so this journey led me to where I am now. And I don’t regret any single part of it, because it was so painful. But I turned that pain and alchemize did into why like the drive that I have now to help people.

Tim Ulbrich 12:20

Yeah, as you’re is your sharing, and I really do appreciate your vulnerability here as I think that many people listening, you know, maybe will resonate with very specific parts of that, right, whether it’s, you know, an abuse part of the journey, or, you know, an eating disorder or some other trauma. But, you know, I think there’s pieces and parts of all of us that can relate to some part of that story. And what’s coming up for me is, like, where does that generative drive come from? Right? So when you think about all that you’ve been through, when you think about, you know, obviously the questions around am I loved? And you know, then being abandoned. And when you talk about your residency journey to me, you know, when I, when I think about, okay, you went through the scramble and I’m sure in your father’s eyes now that was a kind of a dagger of like, okay, now you’re choosing an option as the scramble, right? It’s like the last resort instead of this pathway, you know, seeing you would take and so my question is, where does that generative drive come from? Where do you attribute, you know, you choosing to go down that path? Right? So you know, I think in many abuse trauma situations, obviously, I’m not a counselor in any way, shape, or form, but you tend to think that often you see people stuck in those situations, because, you know, it’s, it’s harder to see the path out of it. And that becomes a new defined normal. And here, obviously, you talked about hitting that rock bottom in terms of, you know, getting thrown out of the house, and, you know, you chose choosing to go down this path anyways. And I almost felt as you were sharing, almost like this tug down an undefined path. And I’m curious of like, what is that pull? Like, what is that talk? What do you attribute to? Is that your is that your faith? Is that your “I just have this intuition”? Like, where, where does that come from?

Dr. Christina Fontana 14:09

I remember sitting on my bed one day meditating, because I like I said, I had so much anxiety from living in this house where I knew like my parents hate pretty much hated me, that my brother, and like, I guess I laugh to kind of cope with it now because I’m just like, I think back to how crazy it was. So please, like if you’re listening to this, please. No, I’m not. I laugh at my own situation, I guess because I’m just like, it was so crazy. But um, I remember sitting and meditating at the time because I was just trying anything to cope with this anxiety. And I felt this and I heard this voice so clearly say, “You like you need to get out of here.” Like, this needs, you need to leave. And so I guess I feel like that was really the first time that I felt that intuitive presence of God. You know, like I grew up Catholic, I kind of had a little bit of connection. But it wasn’t like, my dad was not a pastor or like, I didn’t really have that strong influence. But in those quiet moments, when I was with myself, my intuition started to speak. Because, you know, there’s so many fear influences that we have even now, with the news, people and expectations, parents, etc. So when you quiet that voice, and you really tune in, I started asking myself, like, what do I really want. And it was very scary, but it was that was that same feeling that I had back at the pharmacy. It was just this, it came from within, and it was just this boost of energy that I knew. It was, it was like, without a shadow of a doubt, I need to do this. And it was just, I think, too, probably the pain, like think about when someone has to make a decision, the pain was so bad, that I felt like I had to move. So like if you’re, if you’re in a bad relationship or a bad situation, eventually you get whittled down enough that it’s like, I’m done. That like F-it moment. So.

Tim Ulbrich 16:12

And Christina, as you share, you know, you talked about several things like, you know, obviously, your your need for acceptance, and to be loved. You talked about your nervous system activation, you talked about, you know, your awareness of how emotions are being suppressed. You also talked about kind of the journey of not not condoning in any way, or you know, accepting any way the abuse, but understanding and having a perspective on that, as you now look back. Which all of those together, tell me you’ve been through a journey of inner work, of counseling, of i, if you wouldn’t mind, just sharing for a moment what that journey has looked like for you. Because I think for some that are listening that say, Oh, I’ve got a, you know, a part of my story, you know, that maybe I need to dig a little bit deeper, despite the pain, right, that can be there. And I just think the more that we can hear from others, and on some level, you know, normalize the work that needs to be done, you know, the healthier we can all be. So if you would mind sharing a little bit of, of your journey of processing some of the emotion and the pain that you went through?

Dr. Christina Fontana 17:12

Yeah, absolutely. It it’s still a work in progress. Like there are I’m doing specifically nervous system work right now. But I had started off with traditional therapists, and that only got me so far. When I started doing the subconscious work, and I had hypnosis sessions, my anxiety went from like an eight to a two. And I started to say, okay, like, this is part of the breadcrumb trail of how I want to be helping people. So now that’s what I do. All of these tools that I’ve learned throughout the years, I now help people with. And someone I was I was working at a retreat one time, and somebody came up to me, they’re like, You should call it like rapid transformation, because people shift so quickly, because I, because I’m so intuitive. And I’ve developed that muscle so much within myself, I can look at someone and say, okay, and coach them and ask them these questions that are going to draw out of them. What needs to be shifted, because it’s all internal. Right? It’s the, it’s the layers, I call it multi dimensional healing. It’s the nervous system that’s holding the cellular memory of the trauma, it’s the patterns that you’ve come to cope with that trauma, people pleasing, perfectionism, overthinking, that’s all a nervous system response. So it’s the nervous system, all these patterns. And then there’s typically core wounds that are there like unworthiness, shame. And so that needs to be digested in order to allow that flow of emotion because, you know, I grew up in a very suppressive environment, and it doesn’t allow for you to tap into who you really are, the creativity, the gifts and that’s why I bring this work into helping entrepreneurs because if you’re suppressed, you’re not going to show up fully self expressed when you give a talk, when you go to put your message out there this work is so much of you know, the inner work, but also the practical strategy of how do I bring all of who I am to the table when I am speaking, so that I show up with power conviction. And that’s how you influence people because then they know you care, they see the passion that you have. And that’s how you start to create a domino effect of healing in the world. Which is really why I believe I’m here is at the root cause it’s to be a beacon of light for other people and that’s why I’m so vulnerable in my story. I’m like there’s nothing look in the crevices in the closet. There’s nothing in my closet like I will show you my husband because I want people to to know that they’re not alone and I want them to know there are tools out there that can help them.

Tim Ulbrich 19:57

Yeah, I love how you described it as you know multi dimensional and the layers. You know, that’s been my own experience of just kind of slowly peeling back the onion and the layers. And I think as you do that. And I’m convinced it’s a lifelong journey. I don’t think the work ever ends.

Dr. Christina Fontana 20:12

Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich 20:13

But through that, you start to get a little bit closer, a little bit closer a little bit closer to who your authentic self is. Right. And that is that is the unique advantage of every one of us. There is one, Christina, there is one, Tim, you know, there’s one of whoever’s listening, and we’ve got an opportunity to really identify who is that? Who is that? And how can we help serve others. So with that in mind, let’s shift to talking more about your journey as an entrepreneur. And one of things you share on your website is that you, “Empower others to transform their lives, reveal their inner radiance and step into more energy, confidence and power.” So what what is the how behind that? Why? So how do you help people on that journey?

Dr. Christina Fontana 20:53

So it’s part of what we just talked about. So it’s that inner work. But it’s also the practical strategy of it. And now we’re going to talk about goal setting. So I’ll bring this up now. So structured flexibility, right. So like, if you think of a container, you need to have structure around something to hold the energy of it. So like, if I were to just say, I want to have a business, but there’s no structure or offer or clear place for somebody to land, then it’s kind of like having a leaky bucket. Yeah. So I look at, okay, let’s look at some of these patterns that you have that we can start shifting, as well as those practical strategies of how do we translate your gifts into gold. That’s one of my, like, my signature methodologies turn your gifts to gold, because again, I always show this this is like my new thing. I know that you everybody listening, I’ll describe what I’m holding up right now. So it is a diamond. And if you are following me on social media, you’ll see that I post about this, this is on my Instagram. This is who we are like I’m pregnant right now I’m 21 weeks pregnant, this child is going to come out pure, with all the gifts that it was born with. With it being brilliant, worthy, everything, its pristine. But then what happens is, over time, we learned that life isn’t safe, right in some way, whether it’s a trauma, or we get yelled at or punished, or whatever, whatever that might be. And little kids make meaning out of things. I’m bad. I’m unworthy, all of this. And so that’s what we’re carrying into our business. And people, it’s so unconscious, that that’s why we bring it to the conscious forefront and say, Hey, this is what’s showing up. So we can help you reveal more of that diamond, of the brilliance of who you came here to be. Because you’re most magnetic when you shine that light. And when you can help those people who are in your audience scrolling on Facebook, looking for the answers. That to me is true fulfillment. So the more that you can reveal that, and have these containers and by containers, I mean, like offers or the way that you tell your story in a way that’s compelling and draws people to you. That’s how you build a sustainable business. That’s, that’s my belief. Its just one perspective.

Tim Ulbrich 23:24

Yeah, and I know you work with a lot of entrepreneurs, but for everyone listening, like this work is span spans everyone, right? So obviously, we’re talking about here and the framework of, you know, being able to approach your business and how you serve others and making sure that you know, what is unconscious becomes conscious, and we’re aware of how that might be limiting what we’re doing are holding us back. But, you know, for someone who’s at the front lines at a community pharmacy, or they’re a manager or administrator at a hospital, like, this work matters for everyone. It matters in your professional life and matters in your personal life. You know, you’re talking about some of the variables that as you know, kids growing up, we experienced these things, some of them might be a traumatic enough that we remember, but often they’re not. And I know that as a parent, like there are micro moments, I had one of them with my kids last night where, you know, after there’s an interaction, it’s like, oh, like, how was that perceived? How could that have been done differently? And now how can I, there’s mistakes are going to be made? That’s a part of life. But how do I learn from that? And how can I talk that out loud and process that with them as well? And they need to hear me out loud, say, like, I am sorry, you know, I shouldn’t have done X, Y, or Z. And I could have done this differently and they need to hear those things. And I don’t get it right a lot of the time! But this work matters as an employee, as an entrepreneur as a parent, as a spouse as a you know, father, mother, brothers it matters in every relationship that we have. And so I just love the vision of what you’re sharing one of these you have on your website, which really connected with me is you said “When we reconnect back to our true essence, remember who we really are we are limitless empowered, and we’re free.”

Dr. Christina Fontana 25:03

Yep.

Tim Ulbrich 25:03

So powerful, right. And that transcends so much of what we experienced every day if we’re able to get there.

Dr. Christina Fontana 25:09

And I want to just really quickly talk about that, because that you hit on a really important point there with, you know, when when we have to cope with what’s not resolved within us, then it turns into, like, for me, it was, you know, drinking and numbing my emotions and staying busy and all of these coping mechanisms that disconnected me from myself. And so this process for me has been reconnecting back to my body, which, like, again, it’s uncomfortable. If you’ve experienced trauma, it’s so uncomfortable sometimes to go into that pain. And so oftentimes, people dissociate. And they’re like, how do I escape this? Like, can I just run away from this in any way possible vacations, whatever, whatever that coping mechanism is. But when you when you heal, that’s when you’re truly free. And I think that’s what a lot of people are seeking is through those mechanisms, like, I just feel better.

Tim Ulbrich 26:06

So right, that’s right. Yeah. And I think for you know, I’ll speak to this for a moment, just because this has been my own journey. I know, when I was doing some of the work that I’m doing now, one of my initial knee jerk reactions was like, I had a great childhood, like, there is no trauma there. You know, number one, all of us have experienced something, the magnitude of it, the significance of it can be different. But there, we all have our own journey. And, you know, I think sometimes that we can confuse things like, you know, I was provided for effectively, you know, my parents helped support me, but there could be emotional gaps there, there could be emotional gaps, and you know, how things were communicated or not communicated. And this is not about, you know, digging up things that’s going to lead to, you know, judgment and, you know, disgruntment towards others, right, I think part of this journey, is to really have peace with that. But you know, so much of that, the more to your point, the more that we can help move from being unconscious to conscious, once we’re aware of it, you know, and once we can tap into our emotions and start to slow down and say, Okay, in this moment, I’m noticing myself feeling angry, I’m feeling fear, I’m feeling shame, I’m feeling guilt, whatever it be, and then connecting that with whatever interaction we’re having. I know what I often realize is whoa, like the emotional reaction, as real as it is, is way out of whack with the reality of the situation. Okay, Where’s that coming from? Like, why am I why am I feeling so much anxiety and fear over something that went, I can just step back and kind of untether you know, myself and sort of observe like, oh, Tim, that’s interesting. Like, your heart rates increased rapidly, you have shortness of breath, like you’re, you’re, you’re becoming really tense, like, what’s all that? About? What, what’s behind that? And those are, those are tools, those are things that we can use everyday in our interactions that we have with others.

Dr. Christina Fontana 27:54

Right. Exactly. And the brain loves context, right? So like the nervous system feel safe, when we have some kind of context around, “oh okay, like, this is what’s happening.” Then you can use whatever tool to regulate and be with that part that is probably a past part of you. That’s like, hey, I need support, hey, I wasn’t supported in this way, or whatever it might be. So yeah.

Tim Ulbrich 28:21

So one of the things I’ve shared before on this show and with others, as well, is that I feel like parenting and entrepreneurship, for me have exposed so many areas of weakness or opportunities for growth, however, we want to say it.

Dr. Christina Fontana 28:37

Yeah!

Tim Ulbrich 28:38

And so many opportunities for self reflection that I’m not sure, you know, would have been there to the same degree without it right? When you’re when you’re talking about young kids, when you’re talking about business, there are things that stretch challenge, get out of your control, in a way like for me, I was very good at like keeping things in a box, and being able to kind of control and maneuver around it so that I didn’t have to experience the uncomfortable feelings and the things. Well guess what? When kids come to the equation, when business come to the equation, like that box gets blown up, sometimes they really, like for me exposed like, oh, wow, like when I don’t have control of a situation. Like that’s where I see, you know, a lot of things go awry. And and that’s an interesting discovery, like, well, what’s behind that? And why why is that there? So my question for you is, you know, as you think about your journey, in business, or in tune to be as a parent, like, what have you learned about yourself? What has been the most significant one or two things that you’ve learned about yourself through not only your own journey of healing, but also through building and growing a business?

Dr. Christina Fontana 29:36

Oh, my goodness, when I think of this analogy, when you have a business and you’re growing it, it’s like a mirror. Everything that needs to come up, that’s your client interactions, team interactions is going to come up like you said, I love that analogy. You’re like the box blows up because it’s like, you can’t hide. You’re facing off with yourself. And yeah, I would agree 100% with the control, like for me on worthiness came up control, people pleasing all of those protective parts that just wanted to keep, like, as a child, I just wanted to be safe. And I never felt safe in my house because it was so chaotic, there was a lot of abuse going on. And so I learned to shut down. And that was part of my coping mechanism, like I said, and I think, through control, and my, my dad was very, both my parents were very controlling. That’s what helped me feel like, oh, I have some sort of safety, right? So it was kind of that dynamic that still plays out. And I’m like, I have to catch myself. And I’m like, okay, and I again, like, that’s one of the layers for me that I have to continually work on. And that’s why I have continuous support coaches, different people that I hire, because I’m like, hey, I need, I need to be witnessed in this, I need to be held in this very uncomfortable situation. But at the same time, like even, you know, currently, like, in the past few months, I’ve had some situations where it really stretched me and I’ve never experienced this before. But from a higher perspective, I always come back to okay, what is God trying to teach me through this? Because my character is being strengthened through this. And so I feel the emotion, but then I also say, Okay, what am I actually learning here? And that, to me, is, is important for the integration process of like, I’m not just going through this to feel pain, I’m actually alkalizing something within myself from a past version, or whatever it is, that’s helping me become a higher version of myself, you know?

Tim Ulbrich 31:48

Yeah. And I think that integration part of the journey is so important, right? There’s obviously the feeling of the emotions, and you know, being more aware of that, and how is that impacting, you know, the relationships and things that are happening each and every day? But then what’s the integration? You know, and sometimes that’s not in the moment thing, at least speaking for myself, sometimes that’s, you know, really leaning into the curiosity, as I’ve alluded to a couple different times, and then through that curiosity, and through that self awareness, and through kind of untethering yourself in that experience, it’s okay, what, what is the integration part of this? And what is there to be learned? And how can I grow? I think that how can I grow is a good transition and segue into setting big goals. We’re getting ready to come up on the New Year, which is a time that people often look at the mirror and say, Hey, what are some things that I want to focus on? What what has been the year that’s about to end? What what do we want to shift? And how do we want to grow into the new year? And before we talk about some of the strategy and X’s and O’s for how you approach goal setting, or how you approach this with your clients as well. I want to get just your general thoughts and recommendations on how you might help someone or encourage them to get in the right mindset before they get into the goal setting. Right, the work before the work, if you will. But yeah, I think so much of the goal setting exercise, I say this about the financial plan where we can work on X’s and O’s, we can develop a retirement plan, we can develop a debt repayment, we can do all these things. But if we’re not in the right mindset around, like, why do we care about this topic of money? What’s the goal? What’s our relationship with money, all of these bigger types of things, those X’s and O’s are only going to go so far. So I think similarly here on the goal setting, there’s this important step of getting in the right mindset under which we’re then thinking about how we set goals. So what are your What are your thoughts there?

Dr. Christina Fontana 33:35

Yeah, so I think getting in the right nervous system state is even a deeper level, because when we’re in fight or flight, this prefrontal cortex is not active. So this is where our creative solutions come from, our strategic thinking, our critical thinking, and so I would always encourage and this I do this across the board with all of my clients, align the energy first. So looking at your nervous system, doing some of those exercises, but also really moving from, to what feels pleasure, like like moving from the mind of like, oh, like, How much money do I have whatever. Ask your heart and move into the body and say, What would feel really exciting for me? and I’m actually going to say this out loud because I want to, I want to commit to this. Even though I’m having a child next year, I saw somebody who had this he has a list. He’s really in a very ambitious in my audience, he’s not a pharmacist, but he was committed to speaking to 100 audiences in 2023. And he’s like at the bottom of the list. And I thought to myself, I want to do that I want to commit whether it’s through a Facebook live whatever it is Instagram speaking opportunity. I’m putting it out there. So I would love to have that as a goal so that for me feels juicy, alive. Pleasure lead, like yes! This is something about impact that I really want to move. And so from that vision, then you can obviously go into the more like practical planning pieces of it. But also, it’s like that structured flexibility, like not being too rigid, where it’s like the gripping, but allowing that co creative force of God, the universe, whatever you want to call it, like the surrender piece, because we can only control so much. Yeah. But when you when you embody that version of yourself, like tapping into the energy of this is what I want this is who would I have to be to achieve that goal? Because there’s usually an evolution or a next version of yourself, right? Maybe a higher version of yourself? What would that be? And feeling into that frequency? I recommend this to my clients to just even for five minutes, every single day, because, according to quantum physics, we’re always attracting based upon our thoughts and our electromagnetic signature from our heart. Yeah. So that’s what we attract. What we constantly think about what we’re constantly feeling. So yeah, that’s a whole other topic.

Tim Ulbrich 36:13

It’s a good one, there’s a lot of good resources out there, you know, for for people that want to learn more about that as well. But I think, you know, what you shared about the pleasure lead really resonates with with me, right, because I think for a lot of pharmacists, you know, I’ll speak for myself, but I suspect many may feel the same as well. You know, high achiever tend to want to please others, you know, want to develop these, you know, goals that may have expectations tied to others, and really slowing down and getting out of our head getting into our bodies to really take the space and time to say, Does this resonate with me? Is this an expectation of someone else? Is this really authentic to me or not. And that really requires your point, getting in the right state of our nervous system. I’ve been in these exercises with my small group of men where we meet, we meet once a week for two hours, and we kick off our meeting, typically, with one of the men leading a 15-20 minute type of meditation exercise, and I can consistently now almost have gotten to the point where I will show up, and it feels like there’s an uneven distribution of weight of my head to my body. Because I’ve been throughout the day, I’m just programmed, like through, you know, repetition, experience, whatever, that if I’m not careful and don’t slow down, I’m like, I will live so much of the day in my head, that I can actually feel like the physical exhaustion of that in my head, and really, to be able to slow down and like get into my body. And typically, by the end of that meeting, like I can actually feel like the shift of the stress and the weight in my body. And I’ve actually described it to the guys my group that like it feels like if I close my eyes, sometimes it feels like my head is like in a giant space like disproportionately weighted to the rest of my body. But it’s just such a good reminder of like slowing down, like, what are the exercises, what are the habits, one of the behaviors can really get ourselves into checking in with our body. And I think aligning that with goal setting is so important, right? Because I think if we’re not careful, like Are these your goals? Are these someone else’s goals? And even if they’re your own derived goals, maybe not at an expectation of others, does it actually resonate with you? Right? So you gave that example, which I think is a really good one, because someone else might see that and say, oh, I want to do that too, but not because it really resonates. But because they’re like, Oh, that’d be cool to speak 100 times, like, that’d be cool, right? There could be some pride there, there could be some ego there, right? You know, but the way you described as like, that really resonated with you, internally, right, for whatever reason, I think it comes full circle to where you started your story, which was, you know, early in your life, identifying that you really have a desire to want to help other people, right, that, to me, ties very directly to that. So I think getting in the right state of mind, you know, getting out of our head, making sure that it’s a pleasure lead processes, is so important. Now, I want to get a little more detail from you on this concept of structured flexibility. Because this has been my experience where I’ve gone through goal setting in many different formats. And sometimes I come up with these very comprehensive, you know, plans that seem great, you get the dopamine rush, and then two weeks in, you’re like, oh, my gosh, this is exhausting. What was I thinking I’m going in 12 directions, I’ve got every domain of wellness of, you know, defined with five different sub goals. And then I’ve been on the other end where, you know, it’s too loose, it’s maybe not motivating enough or not structured enough. And I do think there’s a middle ground here, which, which I believe is what you’re referring to the structured flexibility. So tell us more about what that looks like for you.

Dr. Christina Fontana 39:38

Yeah, I’ll just even given a concrete example of a launch. Like I just did a Pivot to Profit three days, you know, it’s a client converting workshop, like I bring everybody in, I teach them, you know, it’s like a really detailed PDF and I’m like, Okay, this is what I’m going to do. I’m going to do this three day event, deliver tons of value, and then I’m going to I’m share about one of my programs. As I’m going through the launch, I’m like, oh, I want to do a trick or treat giveaway. So that came in, like, being open to the downloads that come through, like I call them downloads. It’s like that divine kind of intuition. And so I added that in, and maybe I took something out. It’s kind of like, like cooking. It’s like, oh, do I like my food spicy. Or maybe I won’t add so much of this, but I’ll add this. So I think it’s being a little bit flexible with number one, like those components, but also not being so rigid of like, I need five clients from this launch. Like, it’s it for me, it comes back to and you talks about that word, ego, I really try. And it’s a constant thing. I’m like, Okay, I’m releasing, I know that this is my ego talking right now, that’s wanting this…outcome, I’m going to let that go. And I’m going to open up to whatever the highest outcome is going to be. And I’m going to show up and serve and give 110% and do this plan. Be flexible, you know, implement those downloads, like I said, but also having that openness of, I wonder what else could show up, that it doesn’t have to be so rigid?

Tim Ulbrich 41:20

No, that makes sense. And I think that very concrete example you just gave, you know, related to the launches is a good one, right? Because I think so often, not only can we adopt other people’s goals, but we can set a goal. And then speaking for myself, I’m so structured and rigid to that goal, that I lose any of the openness and flexibility to you know, okay, might there be a different idea, a different pathway, or even feedback from audience or, you know, different things that are coming in that says, okay, my flexible enough to be able to pivot and move in real time. And usually, if I develop a plan, it’s like, this is the plan, right? We’re going with, and I’m gonna see it…. which there’s value in that, like, you know, and there’s, there’s real value that can come from kind of that, you know, stick-to-itiveness and wanting to see it through and being resilient, but also adding some flexibility to that.

Dr. Christina Fontana 42:04

I’m laughing because I’m thinking like, that’s how I’m like, oh, like, I’m gonna plan…..with this baby and like, we’re gonna get the … and I’m like, I’m sure like, the my like, whatever is gonna blow up my plan, but that’s okay.

Tim Ulbrich 42:18

Well, this has been fantastic. And I’m so grateful for your contributions to our community, your vulnerability and sharing your story. I think many are going to find that inspiring, insightful, and maybe on some level, motivating to do some more self discovery and their journey. Also appreciate your your feedback that you gave on you know, how we can be thinking about setting goals and sharing about your entrepreneural journey. Where is the best place that our listeners can go, Christina, to learn more about your work and to follow your journey along the way as well?

Dr. Christina Fontana 42:46

Yeah, so my website is pharmacistcoach.com. And then from there, you’ll find all of my social media handles my group Monetize your Magic. Everything like my Instagram is @thepharmacistcoach so I would love to connect and feel free like I literally am an open door. So if you want to share Hey, I loved what you said in the episode or if you have questions, please reach out I’m happy to support.

Tim Ulbrich 43:12

Awesome well, we will connect in the show notes to social media, to the website pharmacistcoach.com, as well as your email [email protected] If people want to reach out directly.So, Christina, thank you so much for coming on the show and wishing you an awesome 2024.

Tim Ulbrich 43:27

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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Posted on October 11, 2018November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

Carissa Explains It All: How One Pharmacist is Accelerating Her Financial Goals Through Rodan & Fields

On Episode 069 of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, Tim Church, YFP Team Member, hosts another edition of the Side Hustle Series featuring an interview with Dr. Crissy Mahl, a pharmacist and entrepreneur from Yuma, Arizona. Crissy talks about her pharmacy career path and how she became interested in entrepreneurship. She started working for Rodan and Fields and has created a significant side income.

In the Side Hustle Series, Tim talks about ways you can create additional streams of income to reach your financial goals faster and highlights pharmacists who are doing this to help you get inspired.

About Today’s Guest

Crissy graduated with her Doctor of Pharmacy from the University of Findlay in 2012. After living in Ohio all her life, she moved to Yuma, Arizona and completed a PGY1 residency. She has a passion for acute care and hospital pharmacy and is now is one of her hospital’s biggest influencers and leaders. She also has a passion for empowering and inspiring others which is what lead her to become an entrepreneur.

Summary of Episode

On this episode, Dr. Crissy Mahl speaks about her pharmacy career and urge to travel which ultimately moved her from Ohio, where she lived all of her life, to Yuma, Arizona. She carries a passion for acute care and hospital pharmacy and currently works in a position where she is able to help create pharmacy jobs. To supplement her pharmacy income, Chrissy took on an entrepreneurial side hustle and started a business selling Rodan & Fields. In doing this, she’s learned how to fit her side hustle in with her full-time pharmacy career, allowing her to make larger payments on her debt and save for the future.

Crissy says that there are certain personality traits and characteristics that aid to the success this type of work. Her leadership skills as a preceptor to PGY1 students and Family Med residents matched with her personality and work ethic allow her to help navigate and balance her busy schedule. Crissy manages her time wisely, prioritizes well, and is incredibly focused on her business. She stopped watching television and even uses the “spare” time she has while walking or on an elevator to send emails and text messages that help fuel her business. By hustling around the clock, she has a goal set to retire by age 39.

Mentioned on the Show

Splash Financial
Rodan and Fields
The ONE Thing: The Surprisingly Simple Truth Behind Extraordinary Results by Gary Keller and Jay Papasan
Contact Dr. Crissy Mahl

Episode Transcript

Tim Church: Crissy, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show and for being part of this side hustle edition.

Carissa Mahl: Thank you for having me, Tim. I’ve never done anything like this before, so I’m pretty excited about it.

Tim Church: Awesome. Well, we’re glad to have you on. And I was really excited when you reached out to me on LinkedIn to inquire about Your Financial Pharmacist and just to talk about some of the ways that you’ve been working towards financial freedom.

Crissy Mahl: Absolutely. Honestly, I felt like your page was everything that I wish that I knew when I was in pharmacy school. Honestly, there’s so much when it comes to finances and student loans and all this other stuff, and it’s super overwhelming. And it’s even more overwhelming when you come out of school and you’re not really sure what way to turn. And so this side hustle topic is very dear to my heart, and I think it’s something important for people to consider and kind of learn about too.

Tim Church: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. I thought it was really cool when we were talking that we actually share a similar background in that we grew up in Ohio, lived there our whole life, and then we said, hey, let’s go ahead and take off to a state pretty far away and really kind of go from there. So I want to — can you share a little bit about how that happened and why you made such a big move?

Crissy Mahl: Absolutely. So I lived in Ohio all my life, moved to Yuma, Arizona about a little over five years now. So I went to pharmacy school in Ohio, the whole nine yards. I didn’t move until a few months ago after I had graduated pharmacy school. Ohio is where my whole family resides. It’s literally the only thing I know, honestly, because we didn’t have a lot of money when I was growing up. So traveling really wasn’t something that I had ever done before, you know, venturing outside of my little heart of Ohio State was a little bit nerve-wracking, but it was something that I felt I really needed just, you know, for my own push to get outside my comfort zone. And that’s exactly what happened. I was definitely outside my comfort zone, but honestly, I love it here in Ohio — or in Arizona! And I mean, the weather is awesome. I am constantly cold, all the time, so Ohio was really not my jam when you get like nine months of winter. So yeah, this heat is — this is my jam.

Tim Church: I hear you, I hear you. That’s how I got — I moved down to Florida, and for me, it was kind of a temporary situation. But after I was here, it was kind of like, you know, this is it. This is where I want to be, at least for awhile.

Crissy Mahl: Yeah.

Tim Church: So what was the main driver for you to get out there? Was it for a particular job? Or did you know people out in Arizona?

Crissy Mahl: You know, to be honest with you, I had always felt this inner — I don’t know what you would call it — this calling, if you will, to just explore the world. And like I said, I’d never really been able to travel when I was younger or even in school, to be honest with you. In pharmacy school, I had an internship, I worked all the time, so I really didn’t travel even while in pharmacy school. But I always had this inner feeling of just wanting to explore the world and get out there and try something new. And when I had first graduated pharmacy school, I actually had applied for pharmacy positions in both Ohio and Arizona. And I just kind of picked Arizona because I’d been to Orlando once before in my life, and my hair doesn’t quite agree with humidity, so I knew that humidity couldn’t be a thing in my life. And so I was like, oh sure, yeah, Arizona. Like their licensure requirements are similar to Ohio and I could totally pull off getting a license there if I needed to. Kind of a long story short, I actually got a job at a hospital where I had done a lot of my last year of pharmacy school rotations at. And I felt very comfortable with it. I was doing something that, you know, I thought that I wanted to do, which was work as a pharmacist at a acute care hospital. But honestly, I was a little bit scared because I felt like I was too comfortable with what I was doing, and I had only worked there for a couple of months. And it kind of gave me this feeling of like is this really it? Like you know, is this the challenge? Is this what I’m going to do my whole life? And you know, I don’t know. I’m kind of weird in the fact that I like constant change. And I don’t do well with monotony. So I actually had went to Midyear in Vegas that year and met up — just to say hey — to the director of pharmacy and the assistant director of pharmacy at a hospital in Arizona that I had done a phone interview for. And I don’t know if you and anybody listening to this right now have encountered this situation, but I feel like whenever you’re applying for a pharmacy position, they want to fill it pretty much immediately. So that was kind of a problem I came across while I was putting in applications, just before actually graduating is that they wanted to fill the position quickly. And so a lot of the positions I had applied for were already taken by the time I graduated. And I said hey to them, and they were like, “You know what? We have a position, and we want to bring you out to Arizona just to see the place and have the experience.” And I was like, “Oh no, I’m fine. I have a job, it’s cool.” And they were like, “Well, we’ll bring you out and you can see what it’s like.” And I was like, “You know, actually, I’m thinking about going back and doing a residency. I feel a little bit too comfortable with what I’m doing, and I really want to get more clinical.” Long story short, they flew me out to Yuma, Arizona, in the month of February where it’s like hell froze over in Ohio and gorgeous in Yuma, Arizona. It’s like 70 degrees during the day and then in the morning, it’s like 50. Like it’s perfect. And so they probably set it up purposely that way. But essentially, I did my residency there for a year in Yuma, Arizona. Yes, I moved to Yuma, Arizona, after going to Midyear and meeting them. And ended up staying on as a pharmacist after residency.

Tim Church: Crissy, was that a tough transition between working as a pharmacist and then actually going back to do a residency?

Crissy Mahl: You know, honestly, it was so much easier. I feel like the first year that you have after graduating and you are a licensed pharmacist is when you learn so much, regardless of if you’re doing a residency or you’re going straight into a new position as a staff or clinical pharmacist. I just learned so much because you — I mean, I guess you do those things ishish to a degree in your last year of school, you know, during your rotations. But when you have to sign your name to all these things and you are now an independent, licensed pharmacist, there’s like this heavy weight on you to constantly overthink everything and all this stuff. But to be honest, I felt like doing a full year as a pharmacist before going into residency — while I understand how unconventional that is — it actually almost prepared me even more for the residency, giving me more of an advantage because honestly, I felt like I was actually training some of the pharmacists that I ended up being a resident under. Not to like an extreme degree, but I was able to actually like cover vacations for people. It was kind of weird. But I’m glad that I did it, and I’m glad that I went back.

Tim Church: I mean, I think that’s just, that’s a cool story because you don’t hear too many pharmacists who are actually working, practicing as a pharmacist and decide, you know what? I am going to go back and do that residency. And so I just really commend you for doing that because I think that when you’re set in a position, as you said, you kind of get comfortable to some degree. And for some people, that’s not the way that they like to feel and they like the challenge of learning new things.

Crissy Mahl: Yeah.

Tim Church: And I totally get that you were much more prepared because you had that experience under your belt. But one of the things that often comes up — and I’ve heard some of this from my colleagues is that you go from making a full pharmacist’s salary, and now you’re taking a huge pay cut for a year. Was that tough having to do that?

Crissy Mahl: Honestly, it wasn’t too terribly tough. And that doesn’t — probably doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, but I will start off by saying that I make much more working in Yuma, Arizona, than I did in Sandusky, Ohio, per hour. So the move alone pay difference, you know, there was that. Also, I had a lot of perks going to the residency here in Yuma, Arizona. They actually have — the hospital owns an apartment complex. And so I was able to stay in their apartment complex for the full year of my residency. And I think I paid like $300 a month in rent, which was like squadoosh. It’s like nothing. And then our residency here in Yuma, Arizona, actually compensated residents a lot more than almost any other residency I looked at. I can’t remember off the top of my head right now what it was, but honestly, I think it was not quite — it wasn’t even half of what I was making as a pharmacist in Ohio. Like it was more than half. And you know, I just — it’s one of those things where if you’ve ever just made a serious commitment in your life, whether it’s I’m going to pharmacy school and you get that acceptance letter and you just like, you’re all in and you are going to make this work and you’re going to do this. And you’re going to see it out until the end, it was something like that. I knew that residency was something that I needed to do if I wanted to be able to work in the position that I wanted. And I knew I had to just go all in, regardless. And you know, I was already kind of used to being a student and having no money, so you know, the one year that I actually was a pharmacist and making a pharmacist salary, it was kind of like a vacation, if you will. And then it was like, OK, go back to student mode.

Tim Church: Did you have to make any sacrifices for that year during the residency? You know, compared to the previous year when you were making the full salary?

Crissy Mahl: You know, I did share wifi with your neighbor. So the wifi was a little bit horrible. I didn’t update my phone every year like I was used to. Like if it fell on that year, I didn’t do it. Actually, the year that I moved to Arizona and was a resident, I just, I did a lot of quick trips to like Sedona and Page and just stayed at cheap hotels. So I mean, I totally made it work. Like I said, it’s like student living. You just know that you can’t go all out with vacations and stuff. And honestly, I feel like our compensation wasn’t too terribly bad. So I felt like I didn’t have to make too many compromises when it came to, you know, the normalcies of life as far as finances.

Tim Church: Sure. So talk about a little bit about your current position and what you’re doing at your full-time job.

Crissy Mahl: Sure. OK. So right now, I am a clinical pharmacist at a 400-bed hospital here in Yuma, Arizona. I literally do a little bit of everything, and most of that is due to the fact that I did my residency here. So as a PGY1 resident, I every month did a different rotation, including oncology, ICU, internal med, infectious disease, like you name it. And so literally, I mean the goal at the end of any residency, in my opinion, should be that once graduated, you should be able to fit in any of those roles confidently. And that’s what I was able to do. So they kind of fill me into almost any position in the hospital, in and outside of the hospital, that is needed. And I’ve actually created a lot of the positions that we have here at the hospital now, including our Tower 2, which is our cardiac unit. We now have a pharmacist position there, so I helped create that. I also helped create an additional staffing position for the evening shift. And let’s see — now it’s been almost two months — about two months ago I helped, me and my coworker created an IV room pharmacist position. And I was actually a IV technician back in my day, so I kind of already know 7.7 and compounding chemo and things like that. So today, I work in the ICU. And yesterday, I was the quality and safety pharmacist.

Tim Church: You’re doing it all.

Crissy Mahl: I know. When I was mentioning that I get a little bit of pharmacy ADD and you know, I don’t like monotony, this is pretty much like, this is pretty much best case scenario as far as getting to dabble into a little bit of everything. And you know, we’re talking now about starting a ER pharmacist position. And actually, our ER here in Yuma is the busiest ER in all of Arizona. So the fact that we don’t have a pharmacist down there yet is pretty surprising to me. So within the next couple of months, I’ll be rolling that out. And I’m super excited about that.

Tim Church: Wow, well you are just doing everything there. And you’re doing a lot. And it’s pretty cool because it sounds like you’re taking on a leadership role as well and helping to get these positions created and just advocating for pharmacy in the hospital.

Crissy Mahl: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess I could consider myself — I don’t know if you’re like a Game of Thrones guru or anything — but I’m kind of like Tyrion. I don’t necessarily rule any kingdoms, if you will. But I’m kind of like the hand of the kings and give advice and help make things happen, which is kind of more my passion rather than being a boss, if you will.

Tim Church: And would you say that your going and doing the residency, do you feel that that was critical to be able to do a lot of what you’re doing today?

Crissy Mahl: You know, I do because one of the things that I really tried to make sure that I did during my residency was have experiences that I knew I wouldn’t be able to get as a staffing pharmacist. So for example, when I was doing my ICU rotation as a resident, I made sure that I asked to sit in on a open-heart surgery and then also be in the room when the patient comes up to the ICU and how the nurse handles all of the drips and you know, patient assessment scales and everything. I also followed respiratory therapy and how they adjust ventilation settings. And I even got to sit in on a patient who had a Passy Muir valve put on, which was pretty interesting and gross at the same time. I am so glad that people think that respiratory therapy is the bomb because I cannot handle that stuff. So I really feel like I got to not just get an angle of what a pharmacist does in a hospital setting, clinically, but also what the team approach and what they bring to patient care so that I can understand the process in a holistic manner rather than just constantly looking at it from my angle.

Tim Church: Sure, sure. I think that’s awesome, and thank you for sharing that story and just kind of how you got into that role with the residency. So before we kind of move into your side hustles, I want to ask you one more question. And that is, you know, in our profession, there seems to be a lot of negativity — and I know it depends on the job setting — but a lot of negativity around job satisfaction, just the profession. So I want to know, what do you like about being a pharmacist and about your job in general?

Crissy Mahl: Sure. So honestly, pharmacy wasn’t something that was on my radar when I was 5 years. When I was 5, I wanted to be a tornado chaser. When I was 8, I wanted to be an astronaut. And when I was 10, I wanted to be a veterinarian. You know, I don’t know if it’s because I just never really like knew anything pharmacy existed, but it got into my radar when I was in high school and had to sit down and be realistic about what a career required as far as schooling goes and how much to expect to get paid at that job. And for me, going to school for six years — and now they have the fast-track programs and everything where you can get done even sooner — but more or less, six years, and it paid $100,000+ per year, depending on where you work and what you do, obviously. But you know, I feel like there were other professions at the university that I went to. They obviously paid a little bit less than I did to go to that school because we had that College of Pharmacy tuition tacked on, but you know, at least I feel like I’m not in a position where it’s 100% impossible for me to pay off my student loans if I had only had my pharmacy job, but also pharmacy is growing in a lot of different ways, and one of the biggest things is outpatient services, so you know, oncology is huge right now. Anticoagulation, hypertension, diabetes, all of these clinics, they want to have pharmacy involvement. It’s big right now. And I have a hard time believing that we’re ever going to necessarily run out of different things to do. I know that there has been a concern regarding how many pharmacists are graduating every year and how many positions are available between those graduates and people transitioning in and out of jobs, but honestly, if you keep yourself competitive in a way of always learning and just kind of — I don’t know — having a personality where you are open and willing to work and go above and beyond, then I don’t know that you’d ever have a problem finding a job. You may have to, you know, go outside your comfort zone as far as location — that’s definitely something that I’ve seen, especially coming out of Ohio where we have — oh my gosh, I don’t even know how many.

Tim Church: Seven schools. There’s seven schools now, the last I checked, that’s how many. I don’t think there’s eight yet.

Crissy Mahl: Right. Yeah. And so you know, I remember it being rather competitive trying to find a hospital position in Ohio when I graduated. So I can only imagine how much harder it is now, especially if they’re doing any kind of cuts in the way of hospitals and retail and all that.

Tim Church: I think you’re definitely right, though, that it is competitive and that there are certain markets that are saturated, and there is concern with the number of pharmacy schools. But I think that’s even more incentive just to always keep yourself ahead of the curve in learning new skills and really making yourself incredibly valuable to the organization, the institution that you work for but also learning different ways on how you can provide value in patient care. So I think you really hit that. And I think it will be important too to see as there’s a lot of legislation going through to get provider status, to get more opportunities for pharmacists to bill, so that will be interesting to see kind of how that plays off. Well, let’s switch gears a little bit. So you’re working as a pharmacist, you’re creating all these positions, you’re loving it after you got through your PGY1 residency. How do you transition or how did you say, ‘You know what, I’m making pretty good money. I’m working as a pharmacist. But I’m looking for something else.’ What was your main motivation for pursuing a side hustle?

Crissy Mahl: That’s a really good question. So to be honest with you, my very first side hustle was something that was brought up to me by a coworker. You know, he had mentioned that he worked at a physical rehab hospital where he hooked up a couple of hours every weekend or holiday. It was super chill, he did patient interaction. And it was pretty low-key. And honestly, I wasn’t looking for anything super intense. I was just in my brain thinking, you know what? I could use a couple extra bucks, you know, like thousands of dollars every month going towards student loans and just not really seeing that number go down very much was a little bit depressing. So I was like, OK, yeah, like maybe I could do that. So I actually, that’s why I got into it. My very first side hustle was working as a PRN pharmacist at a local physical rehab hospital. And you know, honestly, at first, it was super chill. I knew half of the pharmacists who were working there, so it was easy and familiar. It was different than what I was already doing because it was a outpatient facility with a different workflow, so my job was essentially to literally face-to-face talk with patients about their home medications and what they were going to get discharged on and make sure that they have the education that they need and whatever paperwork is helpful to them in understanding, you know, what the plan of care is once they go home. So it felt very purposeful and, like I said, it was not very stressful. So it was just kind of nice to make that extra money.

Tim Church: Sure. How many hours were you working there? What was typical when you were doing that side hustle?

Crissy Mahl: Typically, in the beginning, it was around probably six hours, which wasn’t bad because I got to sleep in, you know. Sleeping in is until like 7 o’clock. And then I would go in sometime around 9 o’clock and leave sometime around 3:30 and then, you know, maybe catch a movie or something with some friends afterward. But the problem came when we doubled in size and they were doing cuts left and right. Like they got rid of our HR department, they actually let go the technician that we had for — he worked there for more than 10 years. It was heartbreaking. And then — so literally I was doing technician, which means I was packaging medications, I was doing outdates, I was doing narcotic inventory, all these like things that are just not fun for me. And not only was I in charge of doing that, but I was also now taking care of twice as many patients. And the facility was now accepting patients at pretty much all hours of the day. So I would literally — I remember one time, I got a phone call from a physician — or no, it was from the nurse, bless her heart. She caught me at a bad time. But it was like 11:30 at night, and they needed Levaquin. And I’m just like, are you serious? You’re going to make me get up and go in and get you a Levaquin? When they probably already had a dose before they left the hospital that morning. And in that moment, I was just like, oh my gosh, I don’t want to do this anymore. Like, I was literally — I probably had one or — no, that’s a lie. I probably had two or three days off each month between those two jobs. And at the end, I was probably working 10- or 12-hour shifts every time I went in there. So it went from chill, six hours, you know, doing my thing to over the course of a year or two, now double the work, 10 to 12-hour shifts, getting yelled at for putting in so many hours and just stress, like ugh. I was crabby. Nobody liked me.

Tim Church: So it started out like it was a pretty good position starting out, but then it sounds like with all the extra work and the stress that it wasn’t worth the extra money that you were making in order to kind of accelerate the goals that you were looking at.

Crissy Mahl: Exactly. Yeah.

Tim Church: So how long did you work at that facility?

Crissy Mahl: I am not good at quitting. So I stayed at that facility longer than I wanted to, to be honest. I was there for probably close to three years. And it was probably halfway through there where I actually wanted to quit. And I didn’t have necessarily a backup plan because I was already used to that double income and couldn’t really afford, based on my plan for paying things off loan-wise, I couldn’t afford to just dip out. And so that’s kind of when I got into my second side hustle.

Tim Church: Yeah, so talk a little bit about that.

Crissy Mahl: So my second side hustle was something completely unexpected. Honestly, so I got into it because I wanted an eye cream. I was 29 years old, almost turning 30, and I wanted an eye cream. And I was talking with — this is going to sound so ridiculous — I was talking with a friend of a friend who was also a pharmacist. She’s from Arizona and lives in Wisconsin, and she was talking to me about, you know, what this particular side hustle did for her. And for her, she really, really wanted to be present for her kids at home. And she worked at a retail pharmacy location, and I know that the hours can be long and exhausting and just draining overall in retail in particular, and in my opinion. Maybe it’s just because retail isn’t my jam and it stressed me out more than maybe other people. But she was actually able to go down to only working two days a week with this side hustle. And so that impressed me, and I was like, I know how much a pharmacist makes, and you’re telling me that this side hustle is bringing in enough money that you can go down to working two days a week? That’s intriguing. So I joined the business with her. And within a couple of months, I think it was like less than three months, I was able to make back my initial investment in the business. After that, it was gains. And by, again, I suck at the quitting thing. So I could have quit at the rehab hospital a lot sooner than I did because I was actually to make more with this side hustle, with this business, after only five months than I made at the rehab hospital. So I was making more with this business than I was at the rehab hospital, and I was able to do it from home.

Tim Church: So talk a little bit about the actual business that you’re working for and what you’re actually doing.

Crissy Mahl: Awesome. I would love to. OK, so I am essentially paid to have conversations with people about the No. 1 skincare brand in North America. So I talk with people about their skincare concerns, and I also talk with people about the business opportunity. And I make a commission off of the skincare that people purchase through me, and I also make a commission off of the team that I build under me. So with this particular company, there are certain standards. You can’t just make money by sitting back and not doing anything. You actually have to be physically present in the business, working and like I said, building and coaching your team. Skincare isn’t necessarily something I was passionate about at all. Like literally, you’re talking to the chick who used a Neutrogena face makeup cloth before going to bed every night, and that’s it. Like that’s all my skincare routine included. And so once I got into this, it was kind of opening a whole new door of, you know, what skincare actually is and people started noticing my skin just after a couple of weeks. And that’s really when I saw the value in working with this particular company.

Tim Church: And what is the company that you’re working for, Chrissy?
Crissy Mahl: It’s called Rodan & Fields. Have you ever heard of it?

Tim Church: I have heard of that. And is it slang within the biz or is just on the street as R&F, also known as?

Crissy Mahl: No, R&F is like a thing. It’s their logo, it’s their — yeah.

Tim Church: OK.

Crissy Mahl: So that’s legit.

Tim Church: OK. I just didn’t know if you guys typically use that or you use the full name because I’ve kind of heard it both ways.

Crissy Mahl: Sure. So usually if somebody, if I’m bringing it up for the first time, I usually say Rodan & Fields because most people if I just say R&F are kind of like what? But sometimes, people will say, ‘Oh yeah, that sounds familiar. Tell me more.’

Tim Church: Right.

Crissy Mahl: And so that kind of opens up the door to me chatting with them.

Tim Church: So when you were talking about the different ways that you’re serving people and getting additional income, where is most of the income coming from? Is it from the products that you sell? Or is it from getting other people to work for the company?

Crissy Mahl: Sure. So to be honest with you, most of my personal paycheck comes from the products, the skincare products that I sell. However, with this business, that is not the same story for everybody. I know people who really were only interested in building a team. And so they made all their money through commissions on their team’s sales instead of, you know, necessarily selling product themselves to clients. So you can really work it either way. And I’m currently trying to find a balance between the two because I was very comfortable with the talking with people about the products in the beginning rather than the business. And so that’s kind of where I started. And the commission that we get for the products is always retail profit. And then after that, based on your position in the company, you can make, you know, 30%+ commission from product. As far as team-building, it again depends on your promotion within the company, but essentially, you can make 5% of your team’s sales up to six generations below you. So that’s where your residual income comes in. And that’s how people can make six, seven figures doing this business and literally retire them and their spouses in — I think most people like somewhere between like four and nine years. So it’s not a get-rich-quick scheme, it definitely takes work, like anything other business building would. You definitely have to get uncomfortable and push yourself to do things that you normally wouldn’t do because entrepreneurship isn’t something that I ever saw myself doing necessarily. So this is definitely outside my comfort zone, but it’s really been just so rewarding because it’s so different than pharmacy. So much more different than pharmacy.

Tim Church: Was that hard, making that transition into something completely different and kind of shifting your mindset?

Crissy Mahl: You know, it wasn’t that much. It sounds really weird, but I think that because of my natural want to help other people make something extraordinary, whether that’s a pharmacy position or building their own business, that kind of ties in together. And then also, I kind of like to have things that I can call my own, whether that’s a project or whatever, whatever it is. So this thing that is my own is my business. And so I have — give or take — full control over where my business goes. If I put a lot of work into it, I’m going to see a lot of gain from it. If I don’t put a lot of work into it, you know, it can slide backwards. So I have some control over it as far as that goes and that kind of give me a feeling of — I don’t know — safety, if you will.

Tim Church: And I wanted to ask you, Chrissy, because a lot of these business models, sometimes there’s negative connotations with them. And there’s a lot of stories out there of people who are very unsuccessful actually when they’re in these kind of businesses. But what would you say has led you for you to be successful in doing this? Because clearly, you’ve mentioned that it is bringing some additional income and is helping you achieve your financial goals quicker so that you were able to really quit the rehab facility position that you had.

Crissy Mahl: Sure. Yes. So my story in this business is unique to me. I don’t think I’ve ever come across two people with the same story in this business. Some people go super fast, some people are a little slower. You know, some people literally don’t do anything. And honestly, it kind of depends on your mindset — and when I say kind of, it’s like it depends completely on your mindset. So are you willing to do the uncomfortable? Are you willing to put in the work? Are you willing to be coachable? You know, things like that. And honestly, pharmacists have a bit of an edge in this kind of business because we’re already viewed as a trusted resource to people. And so for me, I mean, people would — before I even joined this business, people would come to me all the time, specifically to me, and say, ‘I have this patient. I need your help. What should I do?’ Or, ‘I’m going to Spain, and I need to know what restaurant to go to. Which one do I go to?’ You know, they look to me because they trust my opinion is going to be honest and is going to be helpful and accurate. And so, honestly, the relationship that you have with people in general and the, I guess the personal brand that you have on yourself does impact how well you’ll do in the business, especially in the beginning. So again, pharmacists having that trustworthy, you know, reputation kind of really puts you at a good spot because again, people are going to come to you with their problems. And they expect that whatever you tell them is going to be true and honest.

Tim Church: So besides just being a pharmacist, kind of being a trusted figure, are there any other skills or experiences that you’ve had in pharmacy school or just throughout your professional experience that have helped you be successful?

Crissy Mahl: You know, some of it I probably knew and had experienced throughout pharmacy, and I just didn’t realize it and it hit me more head-on in this kind of business. So for example, different personality types, different learning styles. Even though I am a preceptor to the PGY1 pharmacy residents that we have now as well as I help out with the family medicine residents that we have at the hospital here too, you know, everybody learns a different way. But when you are coaching somebody on how to utilize this system and how to run a business and what works for me, it doesn’t mean that they’re going to do what you tell them to do. And that part can be a little bit frustrating, and you just have to know that it’s going to happen. Like, there’s going to be somebody who wants to do it their way, and you have to just let it happen. There is that — I have encountered that negative connotation about, oh, you’re in direct sales, like what are you doing? And to be honest with you, their opinion doesn’t pay my bills. And if it did, then I would care. But it doesn’t, so I don’t. And you have to have that mentality to get through it because if you care too much about what other people think of you, and if you don’t have a place that you can go to reset your mind and bring you back to you, then you won’t get through it. You have to be able to say, again, ‘I’m all in on this. This is going to work for me. I will make this work. These are my goals. This is my timeline. You know, this is exactly what I want to do.’ And you have to kind of make yourself a plan. Like with pharmacy school, you know you’re going to be in school for six years. You plan it out. Year one, year two, year three, done. So with this, I’m like, OK, personally, my goal is to retire myself at the age of 39, which is a huge goal. It’s scary. It sounds audacious because it is. But you know, you have to believe in yourself enough to know that if you have the grit and the persistence, the coachability, you can literally do whatever you want with this business.

Tim Church: Have you ever considered leaving pharmacy and doing this full-time? Or does pharmacy still have something that’s very central to you?

Crissy Mahl: You know, I have thought about that, which is flipping crazy to think about, honestly, because it’s like, are you serious? Like you just went to school for six years and did a residency, and you’re telling me that you would be willing to drop it and do this business. Like are you nuts? But to be honest, like, once you find that thing that makes you, that fills all the holes from a perspective of career, you know, you kind of just have to go with it. And again, if you have a plan, and it’s a legitimate plan, and you’re moving along with it, it’s hard to turn down. Like if and when I hit that goal of, you know, matching my income as a pharmacist through this company, when I’m 39 years old, how could I not consider it, you know? Like when you have an e-commerce type business — I love to travel now. I don’t think I mentioned that. But instead of working in a pharmacy on holidays and weekend — like I still work holidays and weekends at the hospital because hospitals never close. But I travel so much now, so much. And it’s something, as I mentioned before in the beginning of our conversation, that I really, really, really, really, really wanted to do. I wanted to explore the world and just, you know, take in the cultures and take in scenery and experiences and with this business, I’m able to do that. And so I feel like I have such a better work-life balance, which is honestly pretty much anybody I know would love to have.

Tim Church: Well, that’s what I was going to ask you, Chrissy. I mean, it sounds like, you know, in order to be successful, obviously you have to actually do work. You can’t just sit back and expect to get this residual income that you’ve been. But how do you practically manage your side hustle with your full-time job and your personal life?

Crissy Mahl: Yes. So to be honest, it was really hard at first because I didn’t quit that rehab hospital position right away, you know. So I was literally working two jobs with 2-3 days off every month, in addition to this business. And honestly, it’s just having the focus and utilizing your time wisely. So literally, every nook and cranny that I had in my day, I was doing my business. So if — this is going to sound dangerous, and I don’t recommend that anyone does it — but if you’re walking down a really long hallway in a hospital, I would literally be sending text messages to people and catching up on my messages because, you know, my business is pretty much virtual for the most part, so that’s how I kind of kept up with that. Also, I stopped watching TV, except for Game of Thrones, you can’t take away that. But I stopped watching TV. And my other half, he loves watching TV. So I would literally still be in the same room as him, but I would have my computer in front of me, and I would be doing work. So you know, instead of being I guess nonproductive with my relaxing time, I was actually working my business. I stopped saying no to things that didn’t really benefit me in achieving my goals. So honestly, there’s always a baby shower, there’s always a birthday party, there’s always something going on. And unless there was a legitimate networking opportunity for me or it was, you know, a best friend or an immediate, really close family member, I said no. If I had work to do, then I did work. You know, like any other job, if you don’t get your work done, then it doesn’t get done, and there’s nobody else there to do it, so you have to make the time. I also stopped doing a lot of extra overtime at my full-time position, which now I guess isn’t so much of a problem because when I was first there, we were extremely understaffed, and I was doing a lot of overtime. But I don’t really do overtime anymore. I come home, and I work my business. I mean, also, not only like texting when I’m walking down the hall of the hospital, but you know, texting on the toilet is totally a thing. Just make things work. I was going to make this work. If I am sitting and eating, then I am sitting, eating and texting or emailing or having a conversation with somebody quickly over the phone. You can make it work. And that’s one of the reasons why I really loved this particular company’s business model setup, that it works for busy people. People who are in this particular company, I mean, they excel. And by excel, I mean they’re amazing. They’re like the top of their company amazing at their primary breadwinning position at their careers. It’s pretty astounding because I just got back from New Orleans at our convention, and just seeing all these amazing people and what they’re accomplished, it’s pretty cool that they were able to accomplish something so extraordinary with a business, you know, when they had so much else going on.

Tim Church: Wow, so you basically, you’re not wasting any time going all in in order to really drive this income and get to that goal. But I think that’s cool that you’ve cut out TV and you’re really prioritizing all the things that are really important to you. And I think that’s something that I’ve even struggled with in my side hustles is trying to figure out, you know, what is the process or system that works?

Crissy Mahl: Yeah.

Tim Church: And one of the things that I thought was kind of interesting when I read in this book called, “The One Thing,” by Gary Keller and Jay Papasan is talking about that whole work-life balance and how it’s really not the best way to view something that you actually should do. And I thought that just kind of blew my mind, like when they talked about that because it was basically saying that if you want to be completely balanced and equal in what you’re doing, then that really is how you’re going to be mediocre, that it actually leads to mediocrity. But rather what the reality is is that to be successful in something, sometimes you have to go all in. You have to be willing to do things that are uncomfortable to sacrifice some of the time that might be spending with family members or friends but then kind of shifting back at other times or different periods or seasons and kind of rebalance that in that sense. So it kind of sounds like that’s what it’s taken for you in order to do that. I mean, would that be something that’s fair to say?

Crissy Mahl: Yeah. I would say that’s totally fair to say. And actually, after you mentioned that, I remember reading this quote, and honestly, I can’t remember where I saw it or whose quote it was, but it said something to the effect of, if you are not obsessed with the process of what you’re doing, then you will be average. And it’s kind of true. Like I know people who are literally obsessed — and I call them nerds — with pharmacy. Like literally, I know a guy who on his honeymoon in Hawaii, read like I think it was a BCPS book or something. I’m like, are you flipping serious? Like you’re sitting on a beach in Hawaii, and you’re reading.

Tim Church: Was he still married after that?

Crissy Mahl: Yes. Oh my gosh.

Tim Church: Oh, OK.

Crissy Mahl: Right? She knew what she was getting into. But you know what I mean, and he is like somebody that I can ask any pharmacy question to, and he knows the answer right off the top of his head. I mean, he could probably literally tell me word-for-word, oh, well that study called blah blah blah said on page 3 that this that and the other thing. I’m like, oh my God, what? But if you’re obsessed with what you’re doing, like, you don’t even think about it. You just do it. And it shows, like you can tell when somebody is really into what they’re doing.

Tim Church: I totally agree. Well, Crissy, thank you so much again for coming on the show, talking about your story and your side hustles and some of your goals and aspirations. I think people are going to be better off hearing that, and hopefully that inspires some people to kind of pursue some of the things that they’ve always wanted to do or just really look at that. So again, we thank you. And if somebody wants to reach out to you or learn more about what you’re doing, how can they do that?

Crissy Mahl: Yes, so the best way to get ahold of me honestly is email. Email works perfectly, and you can reach me at [email protected]. So it’s Crissy Mahl at gmail.com. And I’d be more than happy to send you some information about what it is that this company is about, what I’m doing. Honestly, I’m not in the business to convince anybody of anything because I wouldn’t want anybody to do this business if it wasn’t right for them. And I want you to pick the side hustle that fits into your life and your family life best and what you’re trying to pursue.

Tim Church: Thank you, Crissy.

Crissy Mahl: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, Tim. This was so fun.

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