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Tag: behavioral finance

YFP 338: Stepping Into Your Inner Radiance in 2024 with Dr. Christina Fontana

Posted on by YFP Media

Dr. Christina Fontana, creator of The Pharmacist Coach, shares her journey from pharmacy to entrepreneurship, healing from trauma, and setting goals.

Episode Summary

In this episode of the YFP Podcast, we welcome Dr. Christina Fontana, PharmD, the visionary creator of The Pharmacist Coach. Dr. Fontana shares her inspiring journey from pharmacy to entrepreneurship, revealing the impact of her early experiences and the resilience that fueled her pursuit of a purpose-driven path. From navigating personal challenges like eating disorders and anxiety to healing from childhood trauma, Dr. Fontana discusses her commitment to inner work and counseling as essential components of her transformative process. The episode also explores the intertwined nature of personal growth and business development, with insights into Dr. Fontana’s methodology of “structured flexibility.” The discussion concludes with a focus on mindset and goal-setting strategies for pharmacists, encouraging alignment with one’s true desires and an embodiment of authenticity. Tune in for a captivating exploration of career empowerment, resilience, and setting ambitious goals for the year ahead.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Christina Fontana, AKA The Pharmacist Coach, is a pharmacist, holistic healer, rapid transformation business coach, speaker, and 5-time author. She helps spiritually-driven women to ‘Reignite Your Light’ and shine in your brilliance, confidence, and true essence. 

She started her entrepreneurial journey 11 years ago being disempowered, homelessness, broke, with eating disorders, PTSD, and anxiety and has since transformed, turning her pain into purpose, empowering women all over the world to step into more purpose, power, and prosperity.

Over the last 11 years, Dr. Christina has been providing uplifting, transformational content through her Youtube videos, books, courses, programs, and Conferences. Her mission is to empower more healers and business owners unlock their innate gifts to create a domino effect of healing on the world.

Key Points From the Episode

  • Career, trauma, and entrepreneurship with Dr. Christina Fontana. 
  • Career journey and goal setting in pharmacy. [1:53]
  • Eating disorders, perfectionism, and self-discovery in pharmacy school. [5:06]
  • Trauma, intuition, and decision-making. [11:19]
  • Healing from childhood trauma and inner work for personal growth. [16:00]
  • Personal growth and business development. [19:57]
  • Personal growth through entrepreneurship and parenting. [28:19]
  • Mindset and goal setting for pharmacists. [32:20]
  • Setting goals and being flexible in entrepreneurship. [39:38]

Episode Highlights

“All of these tools that I’ve learned throughout the years, I now help people with. And someone I was I was working at a retreat one time, and somebody came up to me, they’re like, You should call it like rapid transformation, because people shift so quickly, because I, because I’m so intuitive. And I’ve developed that muscle so much within myself, I can look at someone and say, okay, and coach them and ask them these questions that are going to draw out of them.” – Dr. Christina Fontana  [17:44]

“I grew up in a very suppressive environment, and it doesn’t allow for you to tap into who you really are, the creativity, the gifts and that’s why I bring this work into helping entrepreneurs because if you’re suppressed, you’re not going to show up fully self expressed when you give a talk, when you go to put your message out there this work is so much of you know, the inner work, but also the practical strategy of how do I bring all of who I am to the table when I am speaking, so that I show up with power, conviction. And that’s how you influence people because then they know you care, they see the passion that you have. And that’s how you start to create a domino effect of healing in the world. Which is really why I believe I’m here is at the root cause it’s to be a beacon of light for other people and that’s why I’m so vulnerable in my story.” – Dr. Christina Fontana  [18:45]

“Translate your gifts into gold.” -Dr. Christina Fontana  [21:38]

“But when you when you embody that version of yourself, like tapping into the energy of this is what I want this is who would I have to be to achieve that goal? Because there’s usually an evolution or a next version of yourself, right? Maybe a higher version of yourself? What would that be? And feeling into that frequency?” -Dr. Christina Fontana  35:28

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich  00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I welcome Dr. Christina Fontana, creator of The Pharmacist Coach. We talk about her career journey in a pharmacy, her trauma experience growing up in an abusive household and how that shaped who she is today, and her entrepreneurial journey focused on empowering others to transform their lives reveal their inner radiance and step into more energy, confidence and power. We then wrap up the show by discussing strategies for getting in the right mindset to set big goals for 2024. Let’s hear a brief message from YFP team member Justin Woods, and then we’ll jump into my interview with Dr. Christina Fontana.

AD SPOT  00:45

This is Justin Woods from the YFP team with a quick message before the show. If you listen to the YFP Podcast, you may learn something every now and then, either from Tim Ulbrich, Tim Baker, or one of our guests. A lot of people listen to the show, but they may not execute or implement the things they learned. As pharmacists, we know the impact of non-adherence on patient outcomes and their overall well being. As a pharmacist, myself and part of the YFP team. I talk with pharmacists every day who are confused about how to implement financial knowledge. Pharmacists share with me that they’re treading water financially, maybe took a DIY approach, reached a plateau and are confused about what to do next. Or those who worked for decades can see the light at the end of the tunnel, and feel uncertain about how the next chapter will unfold. If that sounds like you, one, it is not uncommon to feel that way. And two, does it make sense for us to have a conversation to see if YFP Planning can help you visit YFPplanning.com or follow the link in the Show Notes to find a time that works for your schedule.

Tim Ulbrich  01:50

Christina, welcome to the show. 

Dr. Christina Fontana  01:53

Thank you so much. We’re here on a Monday morning and it’s raining. So, bring in the sunshine.

Tim Ulbrich  01:58

It’s a great way to start a Monday, especially when as you mentioned it’s cloudy, it’s rainy, it’s cold, but you very much have the holiday spirit wearing your your polar bear gear. I love that. And I know the energy you’re going to bring to the show is going to light lighten the mood that has been set by the outside weather. So I’m really looking forward to this opportunity to interview you. We’re going to unpack your career journey, we’ll talk about your entrepreneurial journey. And then I’m gonna pick your brain about advice you would have for our community listening about how you think about goal setting, as well as how you coach others on goal setting as we get ready to turn the page onto 2024. So let’s start with your career journey in pharmacy. What led you into the profession? Where did you go to pharmacy school? And what was some of the work that you did upon graduation? 

Dr. Christina Fontana  02:45

Yeah, so my dad was a pharmacist. I’m from a family full of pharmacists. So my uncle, my aunt, my sister, my dad, we all went to St. John’s University and I grew up working in my dad’s store back from when I was like three years old, sweeping the floors, helping people find, you know, cards for their granddaughter, working the register. Really, I learned my people skills, my dad would always say, Alright, go talk to that person. Go help that person, go sweep the floor. And I think that those early experiences really helped me to kind of plant those seeds of number one customer service. My dad was, he knew everybody’s name. He knew like, what every customer, what their kids’ names were, what sports they were in. And I just would watch him in awe and be like, Wow, he’s just so…how do you know all this and then he knew all the drugs too in the back. You’re amazing. So I was both in awe of my father, but also extremely terrified of him because he was a strong Italian dad, very strict, very controlling. And I actually grew up and I’m very open about this with a lot of abuse. So physical and mental, emotional. I loved my dad and I still do to this day. And I see now that that was an experience that I went through to strengthen my character to be who I am today. And I’ve gone through a lot of healing through that and but like kind of back to what you know, back at the pharmacy, so there was all of that going on. So like I loved him, I admired him. He taught me so much and he was so charismatic, intelligent. And so I absorbed all of that I was like a sponge, you know, from a very early age. And I knew in those interactions with people that were at the counter. That’s really where I like loved talking to people and hearing about their stories or what they were doing for the day. I grew to love people. And I just knew in my heart like I felt this, this rush in my body whenever someone was like, “Oh my God, you really helped me!” I was like, This is my purpose and so from probably around 13-14 years old, I knew that I wanted to help people. And so in my mind, I was like, oh, pharmacy. So the day that I got into pharmacy school, I feel like my whole world opened up, I was so excited. It was like this whole new adventure. And at the same time, there was this internal struggle that was happening within me. So I had an eating disorder in high school where, you know, I was anorexic. Put a lot of pressure on myself. Highly perfectionistic. Does this sound familiar, pharmacists, right? And so my trauma showed up in my body as an eating disorder high, you know, high levels of anxiety. I was a high performer, you know, like, I did kick line dance, all these different things, all throughout my childhood. Because that was what I thought I had to be in order to be loved by and accepted by my family. And so I went through pharmacy school, my head was down, you know, I, I actually developed a different eating disorder at that time. So it was night eating syndrome. That’s a whole other story. But essentially, what I learned was that my going through my healing journey, my nervous system was so overloaded from all of that trauma, the high performing, trying to be perfect, all of those things, that eventually had to come out somewhere because I suppressed my emotions. And you and I could talk about this for hours. But fast forward to kind of as I was going through pharmacy school, I was kind of struggling internally with all of this, you know, my eating disorder, anxiety, it just got compounded because it’s so much pressure to be in pharmacy school to make sure that you’re, you know, making the most out of your social time and, you know, the commute and all of the other things that come with being, you know, in pharmacy school, that pressure. So eventually, I got to the end of my career, or my, my time at St. John’s. And I started to look at all of these different opportunities. And I was really excited about pursuing a residency. And so I, I told my, my family, and I knew they weren’t going to be happy about it, because again, my dad owned this pharmacy and groomed me and, you know, helped me for years, and I just said, I’m like, I want to do this other path. And when I said that, he was not happy, because again, I was a people pleaser, I did whatever my parents said. I was a good girl, all of that. And so what I was, what he was saying back to me was like, you know, how could you do this to us? Like, you’re betraying us, you know, I helped you blah, blah, blah. And I didn’t care. For the first time in my life, I just felt it in my gut. And I think it was the dynamic to have probably somewhat of a toxic environment that I was already in, in that pharmacy setting. Combined with this drive that I had in my in this, again, I felt that feeling in my heart, like this is what I’m supposed to be doing. And so I always say to people, you know, I know, you have to use logic, of course, but also using your intuition like what feels aligned and right to me, that was probably the first time in my life that I actually let that voice be louder than the fear of what are they going to say I have to be perfect all that. So I did, I wound up pursuing the residency and living in that in my parents house with walking on eggshells and feeling like I couldn’t really, like tell them what was happening because I had to go to mid-year and I had to like, develop a CV for the first time and business cards and all of that. And I actually didn’t get any of my top five choices, because you have to pick five residencies that you want to match with. And I was like, devastated. And I didn’t know what to do. So I was talking to one of my professors at St. John’s one day, and she’s like, “oh, like, why don’t you try through the scramble. There’s a King’s Pharmacy in Brooklyn that I think I saw it didn’t match.” So I was like, let’s see if this goes. I went and interviewed and I got the call that I got this residency. But that was the beginning of the crumble of my life because that was when I got kicked out of my house. I my parents pretty much disowned me and you know, all of my stuff was thrown out onto the lawn- hangers, clothes, you know, everything that was my life, from my childhood room, where I was still living at home with them was literally purged onto the lawn. So all my neighbors were probably like, what is happening right now? So, I literally had to pick up the pieces of my life and start fresh like that was my rock bottom. At that time, I was taking anxiety medication. My life was so unworkable, because I wasn’t really speaking my truth. And all of these patterns that people pleasing, the perfectionism, the unworthiness that I had, it all kind of culminated into this moment where I was like, I’m choosing this, I’m choosing this new path. I don’t care how scary it is. And I remember looking up at the sky, and I just was like, it’s gonna be okay. I just had this feeling in my heart that even though my life was a mess, physically, everything was all over the lawn. And, you know, I couldn’t, I wasn’t even allowed back in the house. And I got fired from my dad’s pharmacy that day. So that was like one thing after the other. And by the way, it was like April of right when I was about to graduate pharmacy school. And so I was about to start a residency, I had two months left of pharmacy school, I still had to take my board exams. I had no job, I had not much money in a bank account, and I was living out of my car. And in that moment, like I said, I knew I was like, I can do this. I just had, I don’t know if it was God, if it was a strength, something within me, I just knew that I had made the right decision. And there had been so much bullying and abuse, and I was like, I’m done with this. So anyway, fast forward. And tell me when…

Tim Ulbrich  11:19

Yeah, good. I’ve got so many questions, but this is good. Finish your journey here. 

Dr. Christina Fontana  11:23

Yep. So So there’s so much more, you know, that was the beginning of my entrepreneurial journey really, was getting into that residency, because it really opened up my eyes to all of the different possibilities within pharmacy, and I, it was so stressful, I cried a lot, I had so much PTSD in my body now that I look back on it. But I don’t regret that decision of doing a residency because again, it opened up my eyes to like, I started teaching diabetes classes, I was going through Integrative Nutrition at the same time, and like healing my body of looking at the deeper root of disease and why people get sick. And so this journey led me to where I am now. And I don’t regret any single part of it, because it was so painful. But I turned that pain and alchemize did into why like the drive that I have now to help people. 

Tim Ulbrich  12:20

Yeah, as you’re is your sharing, and I really do appreciate your vulnerability here as I think that many people listening, you know, maybe will resonate with very specific parts of that, right, whether it’s, you know, an abuse part of the journey, or, you know, an eating disorder or some other trauma. But, you know, I think there’s pieces and parts of all of us that can relate to some part of that story. And what’s coming up for me is, like, where does that generative drive come from? Right? So when you think about all that you’ve been through, when you think about, you know, obviously the questions around am I loved? And you know, then being abandoned. And when you talk about your residency journey to me, you know, when I, when I think about, okay, you went through the scramble and I’m sure in your father’s eyes now that was a kind of a dagger of like, okay, now you’re choosing an option as the scramble, right? It’s like the last resort instead of this pathway, you know, seeing you would take and so my question is, where does that generative drive come from? Where do you attribute, you know, you choosing to go down that path? Right? So you know, I think in many abuse trauma situations, obviously, I’m not a counselor in any way, shape, or form, but you tend to think that often you see people stuck in those situations, because, you know, it’s, it’s harder to see the path out of it. And that becomes a new defined normal. And here, obviously, you talked about hitting that rock bottom in terms of, you know, getting thrown out of the house, and, you know, you chose choosing to go down this path anyways. And I almost felt as you were sharing, almost like this tug down an undefined path. And I’m curious of like, what is that pull? Like, what is that talk? What do you attribute to? Is that your is that your faith? Is that your “I just have this intuition”? Like, where, where does that come from?

Dr. Christina Fontana  14:09

I remember sitting on my bed one day meditating, because I like I said, I had so much anxiety from living in this house where I knew like my parents hate pretty much hated me, that my brother, and like, I guess I laugh to kind of cope with it now because I’m just like, I think back to how crazy it was. So please, like if you’re listening to this, please. No, I’m not. I laugh at my own situation, I guess because I’m just like, it was so crazy. But um, I remember sitting and meditating at the time because I was just trying anything to cope with this anxiety. And I felt this and I heard this voice so clearly say, “You like you need to get out of here.” Like, this needs, you need to leave. And so I guess I feel like that was really the first time that I felt that intuitive presence of God. You know, like I grew up Catholic, I kind of had a little bit of connection. But it wasn’t like, my dad was not a pastor or like, I didn’t really have that strong influence. But in those quiet moments, when I was with myself, my intuition started to speak. Because, you know, there’s so many fear influences that we have even now, with the news, people and expectations, parents, etc. So when you quiet that voice, and you really tune in, I started asking myself, like, what do I really want. And it was very scary, but it was that was that same feeling that I had back at the pharmacy. It was just this, it came from within, and it was just this boost of energy that I knew. It was, it was like, without a shadow of a doubt, I need to do this. And it was just, I think, too, probably the pain, like think about when someone has to make a decision, the pain was so bad, that I felt like I had to move. So like if you’re, if you’re in a bad relationship or a bad situation, eventually you get whittled down enough that it’s like, I’m done. That like F-it moment. So. 

Tim Ulbrich  16:12

And Christina, as you share, you know, you talked about several things like, you know, obviously, your your need for acceptance, and to be loved. You talked about your nervous system activation, you talked about, you know, your awareness of how emotions are being suppressed. You also talked about kind of the journey of not not condoning in any way, or you know, accepting any way the abuse, but understanding and having a perspective on that, as you now look back. Which all of those together, tell me you’ve been through a journey of inner work, of counseling, of i, if you wouldn’t mind, just sharing for a moment what that journey has looked like for you. Because I think for some that are listening that say, Oh, I’ve got a, you know, a part of my story, you know, that maybe I need to dig a little bit deeper, despite the pain, right, that can be there. And I just think the more that we can hear from others, and on some level, you know, normalize the work that needs to be done, you know, the healthier we can all be. So if you would mind sharing a little bit of, of your journey of processing some of the emotion and the pain that you went through? 

Dr. Christina Fontana  17:12

Yeah, absolutely. It it’s still a work in progress. Like there are I’m doing specifically nervous system work right now. But I had started off with traditional therapists, and that only got me so far. When I started doing the subconscious work, and I had hypnosis sessions, my anxiety went from like an eight to a two. And I started to say, okay, like, this is part of the breadcrumb trail of how I want to be helping people. So now that’s what I do. All of these tools that I’ve learned throughout the years, I now help people with. And someone I was I was working at a retreat one time, and somebody came up to me, they’re like, You should call it like rapid transformation, because people shift so quickly, because I, because I’m so intuitive. And I’ve developed that muscle so much within myself, I can look at someone and say, okay, and coach them and ask them these questions that are going to draw out of them. What needs to be shifted, because it’s all internal. Right? It’s the, it’s the layers, I call it multi dimensional healing. It’s the nervous system that’s holding the cellular memory of the trauma, it’s the patterns that you’ve come to cope with that trauma, people pleasing, perfectionism, overthinking, that’s all a nervous system response. So it’s the nervous system, all these patterns. And then there’s typically core wounds that are there like unworthiness, shame. And so that needs to be digested in order to allow that flow of emotion because, you know, I grew up in a very suppressive environment, and it doesn’t allow for you to tap into who you really are, the creativity, the gifts and that’s why I bring this work into helping entrepreneurs because if you’re suppressed, you’re not going to show up fully self expressed when you give a talk, when you go to put your message out there this work is so much of you know, the inner work, but also the practical strategy of how do I bring all of who I am to the table when I am speaking, so that I show up with power conviction. And that’s how you influence people because then they know you care, they see the passion that you have. And that’s how you start to create a domino effect of healing in the world. Which is really why I believe I’m here is at the root cause it’s to be a beacon of light for other people and that’s why I’m so vulnerable in my story. I’m like there’s nothing look in the crevices in the closet. There’s nothing in my closet like I will show you my husband because I want people to to know that they’re not alone and I want them to know there are tools out there that can help them. 

Tim Ulbrich  19:57

Yeah, I love how you described it as you know multi dimensional and the layers. You know, that’s been my own experience of just kind of slowly peeling back the onion and the layers. And I think as you do that. And I’m convinced it’s a lifelong journey. I don’t think the work ever ends. 

Dr. Christina Fontana  20:12

Yeah. 

Tim Ulbrich  20:13

But through that, you start to get a little bit closer, a little bit closer a little bit closer to who your authentic self is. Right. And that is that is the unique advantage of every one of us. There is one, Christina, there is one, Tim, you know, there’s one of whoever’s listening, and we’ve got an opportunity to really identify who is that? Who is that? And how can we help serve others. So with that in mind, let’s shift to talking more about your journey as an entrepreneur. And one of things you share on your website is that you, “Empower others to transform their lives, reveal their inner radiance and step into more energy, confidence and power.” So what what is the how behind that? Why? So how do you help people on that journey?

Dr. Christina Fontana  20:53

So it’s part of what we just talked about. So it’s that inner work. But it’s also the practical strategy of it. And now we’re going to talk about goal setting. So I’ll bring this up now. So structured flexibility, right. So like, if you think of a container, you need to have structure around something to hold the energy of it. So like, if I were to just say, I want to have a business, but there’s no structure or offer or clear place for somebody to land, then it’s kind of like having a leaky bucket. Yeah. So I look at, okay, let’s look at some of these patterns that you have that we can start shifting, as well as those practical strategies of how do we translate your gifts into gold. That’s one of my, like, my signature methodologies turn your gifts to gold, because again, I always show this this is like my new thing. I know that you everybody listening, I’ll describe what I’m holding up right now. So it is a diamond. And if you are following me on social media, you’ll see that I post about this, this is on my Instagram. This is who we are like I’m pregnant right now I’m 21 weeks pregnant, this child is going to come out pure, with all the gifts that it was born with. With it being brilliant, worthy, everything, its pristine. But then what happens is, over time, we learned that life isn’t safe, right in some way, whether it’s a trauma, or we get yelled at or punished, or whatever, whatever that might be. And little kids make meaning out of things. I’m bad. I’m unworthy, all of this. And so that’s what we’re carrying into our business. And people, it’s so unconscious, that that’s why we bring it to the conscious forefront and say, Hey, this is what’s showing up. So we can help you reveal more of that diamond, of the brilliance of who you came here to be. Because you’re most magnetic when you shine that light. And when you can help those people who are in your audience scrolling on Facebook, looking for the answers. That to me is true fulfillment. So the more that you can reveal that, and have these containers and by containers, I mean, like offers or the way that you tell your story in a way that’s compelling and draws people to you. That’s how you build a sustainable business. That’s, that’s my belief. Its just one perspective. 

Tim Ulbrich  23:24

Yeah, and I know you work with a lot of entrepreneurs, but for everyone listening, like this work is span spans everyone, right? So obviously, we’re talking about here and the framework of, you know, being able to approach your business and how you serve others and making sure that you know, what is unconscious becomes conscious, and we’re aware of how that might be limiting what we’re doing are holding us back. But, you know, for someone who’s at the front lines at a community pharmacy, or they’re a manager or administrator at a hospital, like, this work matters for everyone. It matters in your professional life and matters in your personal life. You know, you’re talking about some of the variables that as you know, kids growing up, we experienced these things, some of them might be a traumatic enough that we remember, but often they’re not. And I know that as a parent, like there are micro moments, I had one of them with my kids last night where, you know, after there’s an interaction, it’s like, oh, like, how was that perceived? How could that have been done differently? And now how can I, there’s mistakes are going to be made? That’s a part of life. But how do I learn from that? And how can I talk that out loud and process that with them as well? And they need to hear me out loud, say, like, I am sorry, you know, I shouldn’t have done X, Y, or Z. And I could have done this differently and they need to hear those things. And I don’t get it right a lot of the time! But this work matters as an employee, as an entrepreneur as a parent, as a spouse as a you know, father, mother, brothers it matters in every relationship that we have. And so I just love the vision of what you’re sharing one of these you have on your website, which really connected with me is you said “When we reconnect back to our true essence, remember who we really are we are limitless empowered, and we’re free.” 

Dr. Christina Fontana  25:03

Yep. 

Tim Ulbrich  25:03

So powerful, right. And that transcends so much of what we experienced every day if we’re able to get there. 

Dr. Christina Fontana  25:09

And I want to just really quickly talk about that, because that you hit on a really important point there with, you know, when when we have to cope with what’s not resolved within us, then it turns into, like, for me, it was, you know, drinking and numbing my emotions and staying busy and all of these coping mechanisms that disconnected me from myself. And so this process for me has been reconnecting back to my body, which, like, again, it’s uncomfortable. If you’ve experienced trauma, it’s so uncomfortable sometimes to go into that pain. And so oftentimes, people dissociate. And they’re like, how do I escape this? Like, can I just run away from this in any way possible vacations, whatever, whatever that coping mechanism is. But when you when you heal, that’s when you’re truly free. And I think that’s what a lot of people are seeking is through those mechanisms, like, I just feel better. 

Tim Ulbrich  26:06

So right, that’s right. Yeah. And I think for you know, I’ll speak to this for a moment, just because this has been my own journey. I know, when I was doing some of the work that I’m doing now, one of my initial knee jerk reactions was like, I had a great childhood, like, there is no trauma there. You know, number one, all of us have experienced something, the magnitude of it, the significance of it can be different. But there, we all have our own journey. And, you know, I think sometimes that we can confuse things like, you know, I was provided for effectively, you know, my parents helped support me, but there could be emotional gaps there, there could be emotional gaps, and you know, how things were communicated or not communicated. And this is not about, you know, digging up things that’s going to lead to, you know, judgment and, you know, disgruntment towards others, right, I think part of this journey, is to really have peace with that. But you know, so much of that, the more to your point, the more that we can help move from being unconscious to conscious, once we’re aware of it, you know, and once we can tap into our emotions and start to slow down and say, Okay, in this moment, I’m noticing myself feeling angry, I’m feeling fear, I’m feeling shame, I’m feeling guilt, whatever it be, and then connecting that with whatever interaction we’re having. I know what I often realize is whoa, like the emotional reaction, as real as it is, is way out of whack with the reality of the situation. Okay, Where’s that coming from? Like, why am I why am I feeling so much anxiety and fear over something that went, I can just step back and kind of untether you know, myself and sort of observe like, oh, Tim, that’s interesting. Like, your heart rates increased rapidly, you have shortness of breath, like you’re, you’re, you’re becoming really tense, like, what’s all that? About? What, what’s behind that? And those are, those are tools, those are things that we can use everyday in our interactions that we have with others. 

Dr. Christina Fontana  27:54

Right. Exactly. And the brain loves context, right? So like the nervous system feel safe, when we have some kind of context around, “oh okay, like, this is what’s happening.” Then you can use whatever tool to regulate and be with that part that is probably a past part of you. That’s like, hey, I need support, hey, I wasn’t supported in this way, or whatever it might be. So yeah. 

Tim Ulbrich  28:21

So one of the things I’ve shared before on this show and with others, as well, is that I feel like parenting and entrepreneurship, for me have exposed so many areas of weakness or opportunities for growth, however, we want to say it. 

Dr. Christina Fontana  28:37

Yeah!

Tim Ulbrich  28:38

And so many opportunities for self reflection that I’m not sure, you know, would have been there to the same degree without it right? When you’re when you’re talking about young kids, when you’re talking about business, there are things that stretch challenge, get out of your control, in a way like for me, I was very good at like keeping things in a box, and being able to kind of control and maneuver around it so that I didn’t have to experience the uncomfortable feelings and the things.  Well guess what? When kids come to the equation, when business come to the equation, like that box gets blown up, sometimes they really, like for me exposed like, oh, wow, like when I don’t have control of a situation. Like that’s where I see, you know, a lot of things go awry. And and that’s an interesting discovery, like, well, what’s behind that? And why why is that there? So my question for you is, you know, as you think about your journey, in business, or in tune to be as a parent, like, what have you learned about yourself? What has been the most significant one or two things that you’ve learned about yourself through not only your own journey of healing, but also through building and growing a business? 

Dr. Christina Fontana  29:36

Oh, my goodness, when I think of this analogy, when you have a business and you’re growing it, it’s like a mirror. Everything that needs to come up, that’s your client interactions, team interactions is going to come up like you said, I love that analogy. You’re like the box blows up because it’s like, you can’t hide. You’re facing off with yourself. And yeah, I would agree 100% with the control, like for me on worthiness came up control, people pleasing all of those protective parts that just wanted to keep, like, as a child, I just wanted to be safe. And I never felt safe in my house because it was so chaotic, there was a lot of abuse going on. And so I learned to shut down. And that was part of my coping mechanism, like I said, and I think, through control, and my, my dad was very, both my parents were very controlling. That’s what helped me feel like, oh, I have some sort of safety, right? So it was kind of that dynamic that still plays out. And I’m like, I have to catch myself. And I’m like, okay, and I again, like, that’s one of the layers for me that I have to continually work on. And that’s why I have continuous support coaches, different people that I hire, because I’m like, hey, I need, I need to be witnessed in this, I need to be held in this very uncomfortable situation. But at the same time, like even, you know, currently, like, in the past few months, I’ve had some situations where it really stretched me and I’ve never experienced this before. But from a higher perspective, I always come back to okay, what is God trying to teach me through this? Because my character is being strengthened through this. And so I feel the emotion, but then I also say, Okay, what am I actually learning here? And that, to me, is, is important for the integration process of like, I’m not just going through this to feel pain, I’m actually alkalizing something within myself from a past version, or whatever it is, that’s helping me become a higher version of myself, you know? 

Tim Ulbrich  31:48

Yeah. And I think that integration part of the journey is so important, right? There’s obviously the feeling of the emotions, and you know, being more aware of that, and how is that impacting, you know, the relationships and things that are happening each and every day? But then what’s the integration? You know, and sometimes that’s not in the moment thing, at least speaking for myself, sometimes that’s, you know, really leaning into the curiosity, as I’ve alluded to a couple different times, and then through that curiosity, and through that self awareness, and through kind of untethering yourself in that experience, it’s okay, what, what is the integration part of this? And what is there to be learned? And how can I grow? I think that how can I grow is a good transition and segue into setting big goals. We’re getting ready to come up on the New Year, which is a time that people often look at the mirror and say, Hey, what are some things that I want to focus on? What what has been the year that’s about to end? What what do we want to shift? And how do we want to grow into the new year? And before we talk about some of the strategy and X’s and O’s for how you approach goal setting, or how you approach this with your clients as well. I want to get just your general thoughts and recommendations on how you might help someone or encourage them to get in the right mindset before they get into the goal setting. Right, the work before the work, if you will. But yeah, I think so much of the goal setting exercise, I say this about the financial plan where we can work on X’s and O’s, we can develop a retirement plan, we can develop a debt repayment, we can do all these things. But if we’re not in the right mindset around, like, why do we care about this topic of money? What’s the goal? What’s our relationship with money, all of these bigger types of things, those X’s and O’s are only going to go so far. So I think similarly here on the goal setting, there’s this important step of getting in the right mindset under which we’re then thinking about how we set goals. So what are your What are your thoughts there? 

Dr. Christina Fontana  33:35

Yeah, so I think getting in the right nervous system state is even a deeper level, because when we’re in fight or flight, this prefrontal cortex is not active. So this is where our creative solutions come from, our strategic thinking, our critical thinking, and so I would always encourage and this I do this across the board with all of my clients, align the energy first. So looking at your nervous system, doing some of those exercises, but also really moving from, to what feels pleasure, like like moving from the mind of like, oh, like, How much money do I have whatever. Ask your heart and move into the body and say, What would feel really exciting for me? and I’m actually going to say this out loud because I want to, I want to commit to this. Even though I’m having a child next year, I saw somebody who had this he has a list. He’s really in a very ambitious in my audience, he’s not a pharmacist, but he was committed to speaking to 100 audiences in 2023. And he’s like at the bottom of the list. And I thought to myself, I want to do that I want to commit whether it’s through a Facebook live whatever it is Instagram speaking opportunity. I’m putting it out there. So I would love to have that as a goal so that for me feels juicy, alive. Pleasure lead, like yes! This is something about impact that I really want to move. And so from that vision, then you can obviously go into the more like practical planning pieces of it. But also, it’s like that structured flexibility, like not being too rigid, where it’s like the gripping, but allowing that co creative force of God, the universe, whatever you want to call it, like the surrender piece, because we can only control so much. Yeah. But when you when you embody that version of yourself, like tapping into the energy of this is what I want this is who would I have to be to achieve that goal? Because there’s usually an evolution or a next version of yourself, right? Maybe a higher version of yourself? What would that be? And feeling into that frequency? I recommend this to my clients to just even for five minutes, every single day, because, according to quantum physics, we’re always attracting based upon our thoughts and our electromagnetic signature from our heart. Yeah. So that’s what we attract. What we constantly think about what we’re constantly feeling. So yeah, that’s a whole other topic. 

Tim Ulbrich  36:13

It’s a good one, there’s a lot of good resources out there, you know, for for people that want to learn more about that as well. But I think, you know, what you shared about the pleasure lead really resonates with with me, right, because I think for a lot of pharmacists, you know, I’ll speak for myself, but I suspect many may feel the same as well. You know, high achiever tend to want to please others, you know, want to develop these, you know, goals that may have expectations tied to others, and really slowing down and getting out of our head getting into our bodies to really take the space and time to say, Does this resonate with me? Is this an expectation of someone else? Is this really authentic to me or not. And that really requires your point, getting in the right state of our nervous system. I’ve been in these exercises with my small group of men where we meet, we meet once a week for two hours, and we kick off our meeting, typically, with one of the men leading a 15-20 minute type of meditation exercise, and I can consistently now almost have gotten to the point where I will show up, and it feels like there’s an uneven distribution of weight of my head to my body. Because I’ve been throughout the day, I’m just programmed, like through, you know, repetition, experience, whatever, that if I’m not careful and don’t slow down, I’m like, I will live so much of the day in my head, that I can actually feel like the physical exhaustion of that in my head, and really, to be able to slow down and like get into my body. And typically, by the end of that meeting, like I can actually feel like the shift of the stress and the weight in my body. And I’ve actually described it to the guys my group that like it feels like if I close my eyes, sometimes it feels like my head is like in a giant space like disproportionately weighted to the rest of my body. But it’s just such a good reminder of like slowing down, like, what are the exercises, what are the habits, one of the behaviors can really get ourselves into checking in with our body. And I think aligning that with goal setting is so important, right? Because I think if we’re not careful, like Are these your goals? Are these someone else’s goals? And even if they’re your own derived goals, maybe not at an expectation of others, does it actually resonate with you? Right? So you gave that example, which I think is a really good one, because someone else might see that and say, oh, I want to do that too, but not because it really resonates. But because they’re like, Oh, that’d be cool to speak 100 times, like, that’d be cool, right? There could be some pride there, there could be some ego there, right? You know, but the way you described as like, that really resonated with you, internally, right, for whatever reason, I think it comes full circle to where you started your story, which was, you know, early in your life, identifying that you really have a desire to want to help other people, right, that, to me, ties very directly to that. So I think getting in the right state of mind, you know, getting out of our head, making sure that it’s a pleasure lead processes, is so important. Now, I want to get a little more detail from you on this concept of structured flexibility. Because this has been my experience where I’ve gone through goal setting in many different formats. And sometimes I come up with these very comprehensive, you know, plans that seem great, you get the dopamine rush, and then two weeks in, you’re like, oh, my gosh, this is exhausting. What was I thinking I’m going in 12 directions, I’ve got every domain of wellness of, you know, defined with five different sub goals. And then I’ve been on the other end where, you know, it’s too loose, it’s maybe not motivating enough or not structured enough. And I do think there’s a middle ground here, which, which I believe is what you’re referring to the structured flexibility. So tell us more about what that looks like for you. 

Dr. Christina Fontana  39:38

Yeah, I’ll just even given a concrete example of a launch. Like I just did a Pivot to Profit three days, you know, it’s a client converting workshop, like I bring everybody in, I teach them, you know, it’s like a really detailed PDF and I’m like, Okay, this is what I’m going to do. I’m going to do this three day event, deliver tons of value, and then I’m going to I’m share about one of my programs. As I’m going through the launch, I’m like, oh, I want to do a trick or treat giveaway. So that came in, like, being open to  the downloads that come through, like I call them downloads. It’s like that divine kind of intuition. And so I added that in, and maybe I took something out. It’s kind of like, like cooking. It’s like, oh, do I like my food spicy. Or maybe I won’t add so much of this, but I’ll add this. So I think it’s being a little bit flexible with number one, like those components, but also not being so rigid of like, I need five clients from this launch. Like, it’s it for me, it comes back to and you talks about that word, ego, I really try. And it’s a constant thing. I’m like, Okay, I’m releasing, I know that this is my ego talking right now, that’s wanting this…outcome, I’m going to let that go. And I’m going to open up to whatever the highest outcome is going to be. And I’m going to show up and serve and give 110% and do this plan. Be flexible, you know, implement those downloads, like I said, but also having that openness of, I wonder what else could show up, that it doesn’t have to be so rigid?

Tim Ulbrich  41:20

No, that makes sense. And I think that very concrete example you just gave, you know, related to the launches is a good one, right? Because I think so often, not only can we adopt other people’s goals, but we can set a goal. And then speaking for myself, I’m so structured and rigid to that goal, that I lose any of the openness and flexibility to you know, okay, might there be a different idea, a different pathway, or even feedback from audience or, you know, different things that are coming in that says, okay, my flexible enough to be able to pivot and move in real time. And usually, if I develop a plan, it’s like, this is the plan, right? We’re going with, and I’m gonna see it…. which there’s value in that, like, you know, and there’s, there’s real value that can come from kind of that, you know, stick-to-itiveness and wanting to see it through and being resilient, but also adding some flexibility to that. 

Dr. Christina Fontana  42:04

I’m laughing because I’m thinking like, that’s how I’m like, oh, like, I’m gonna plan…..with this baby and like, we’re gonna get the … and I’m like, I’m sure like, the my like, whatever is gonna blow up my plan, but that’s okay.

Tim Ulbrich  42:18

Well, this has been fantastic. And I’m so grateful for your contributions to our community, your vulnerability and sharing your story. I think many are going to find that inspiring, insightful, and maybe on some level, motivating to do some more self discovery and their journey. Also appreciate your your feedback that you gave on you know, how we can be thinking about setting goals and sharing about your entrepreneural journey. Where is the best place that our listeners can go, Christina, to learn more about your work and to follow your journey along the way as well? 

Dr. Christina Fontana  42:46

Yeah, so my website is pharmacistcoach.com. And then from there, you’ll find all of my social media handles my group Monetize your Magic. Everything like my Instagram is @thepharmacistcoach so I would love to connect and feel free like I literally am an open door. So if you want to share Hey, I loved what you said in the episode or if you have questions, please reach out I’m happy to support.

Tim Ulbrich  43:12

Awesome well, we will connect in the show notes to social media, to the website pharmacistcoach.com, as well as your email [email protected] If people want to reach out directly.So, Christina, thank you so much for coming on the show and wishing you an awesome 2024.

Tim Ulbrich  43:27

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published.  Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 315: An Interview with Rachel Cruze (YFP Classic)

Posted on by Tim U

Know Yourself, Know Your Money with New York Times Bestseller Rachel Cruze

Rachel Cruze discusses her new book, Know Yourself, Know Your Money.

About Today’s Guest

Rachel Cruze is a two-time #1 national best-selling author, financial expert, and host of The Rachel Cruze Show. Since 2010, Rachel has served at Ramsey Solutions, where she teaches people to avoid debt, save money, budget, and how to win with money at any stage in life. She’s authored three best-selling books, including her latest, Know Yourself, Know Your Money: Discover WHY You Handle Money the Way You Do and WHAT to Do About It. Follow Rachel on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube or online at rachelcruze.com.

Summary

National best-selling author and financial expert, Rachel Cruze, joins Tim Ulbrich to discuss her newest book, Know Yourself, Know Your Money: Discover WHY You Handle Money the Way You Do and WHAT to Do About It. Tim and Rachel delve into various portions of the book, highlighting specific lessons and concepts relatable to pharmacists, parents, and anyone interested in learning more about themselves and their relationship to their finances.

Rachel walks listeners through “Discovering Your Personal Money Mindset,” including how we form our ideas about money and how we learn to handle money as we do through “Your Childhood Money Classroom.” Rachel goes through the four money classrooms. She reminds us that regardless of the quadrant that you grew up in, you can choose your quadrant from this point forward. Rachel outlines seven money tendencies, how they not only impact your financial picture, and how these tendencies affect interpersonal relationships with significant others. Tim and Rachel share an earnest discussion about money fears, detailed in Chapters 5 and 6 of the book. They close with an eye-opening discussion on part 2 of the book, focusing on the “Power of Contentment.” Rachel shares how contentment changes your motivation for spending. She explains a practical exercise for determining what brings you joy and demonstrates how learning where and how you find happiness allows you to focus your spending on what is truly important to you.

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Rachel, welcome to the show.

Rachel Cruze: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Tim Ulbrich: It’s really an honor to have you on, and I’m excited to talk about your latest book, “Know Yourself, Know Your Money.” And for those listening in the YFP community that are already familiar with the Ramsey baby steps, I think this book does an excellent job covering much of the mindset, the behaviors, the beliefs that are the foundation to ensuring your goals and dreams become a reality. So Rachel, in Part 1 of the book, which is “Discovering Your Personal Money Mindset,” you talk in Chapter 1 about your childhood money classroom. And you make a strong argument that this is the first step in understanding why we handle money the way that we do and that “there are really two ways we learned about money: what our parents communicated emotionally and what they communicated verbally.” Tell us more about these two modes of communication and why it is so important to dig into our past for some honest reflection before we chart our path forward.

Rachel Cruze: Yes, well whenever you talk to any great psychologist or counselor or therapist, they will tell you that so much of who you are today is from how you grew up, whether that’s coping mechanisms, defense strategies, all of that. Learning to kind of survive really in your childhood is something that’s engrained in all of us. And so when I was writing the book, I wanted to go in and say, “OK, I want to understand why we handle money the way we do.” Like you said, it’s not just the what — you know, we talk about the how a lot around Ramsey Solutions, how to get out of debt, how to invest, how to refinance, how to give, but I wanted to answer that question, why? Why do we do the things we do? And it always stems back to that classroom that you lived in, which is your home growing up. And there’s a lot of lessons in those classrooms that we grew up in that you want to unlearn. As an adult, you’re like, I don’t want to take that with me. And there’s a lot of lessons that you do want to take with you. And so being able to just pinpoint, hey, my money habits, the way I view money, part of that is because of my environment growing up. And so those two modes of communication, like you said, the verbal, what is said out loud, and then that emotional state, is really important. So as I was writing the manuscript for this book, you know, kind of coming across these two things, and I remember thinking, oh, OK, it’s like a quadrant. God gave me a graph to explain this, and I’m so happy because it ends up being this four quadrant where that verbal communication and emotional communication intersect. And it ends up really showing these four different money classrooms. And so for you to be able to identify OK, I grew up in Classroom No. 1 or Classroom No. 2 there, and to understand that really will show you why you handle money the way you do today.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and this was really a gut check for me, Rachel, as a father of four young boys, you know, I feel like I do a decent job in communicating verbally about money. It’s something I talk about daily, but it was a gut check on like the emotional part and what are some of the messages that we’re sending to our kids? And so part of this as I read it is unlearning in part or reflecting upon your past but also for those that are out there that are parents, thinking about some of the money scripts and messages that we’re sending in our own homes as well.

Rachel Cruze: That’s right. Yeah. And even that nonverbal, you know, in the classroom, Classroom 1 is the anxious money classroom. And that’s where it’s verbally closed but emotionally stressed. Classroom 2 is the unstable money classroom where it’s emotionally stressed but verbally open, so it’s lots of conflict, lots of fighting. That Classroom 3 is the unaware money classroom, which is emotionally calm but it’s verbally closed. So it’s not talked about, but it’s also not felt. Like it’s a stress point, so you don’t really even — your head is kind of in the sand, if you will, about money until you leave home and realize, oh wow, there’s a lot to do with this subject. And then Classroom 4 is that secure money classroom. And that’s where it’s verbally open but emotionally calm. So that fourth classroom, kind of like what you’re saying, I really wanted the readers to think about their current nuclear family to say, OK, if I do have kids or if I want kids in the future, how am I going to do this on the verbal and emotional scale? And so moving to that Classroom 4 is really important for people because the thing about that is you don’t have to be a perfect parents by any means to be in that classroom. You also don’t have to have a ton of money, right? You don’t have to be like a millionaire to be in that. It’s these habits that you create. And what’s funny is when you’re emotionally calm about money, usually there’s a plan around it, usually there’s a level of healthy control. There’s some safety nets in place like an emergency fund, you know, there’s these habits that you do in the how-to of money that set you up to create that emotionally stable home around this subject where for so many people it’s not safe, it’s not emotionally calm, it is very stressed. And when you look at the statistics of the average American today, I’m like, yeah, I would be stressed too, right? Living paycheck-to-paycheck, having $16,000 of credit card debt, all of it. So I understand why that is, but getting yourself in a place financially where you’re more under control, you’re naturally going to bring in that emotional side in your household, which is amazing. And then the verbal side you pointed out too is talking about it. And I think it’s less taboo today than it was even 20 years ago. I think parents engage their kids in more conversations maybe than the Boomers did for their kids, you know, like when you look at the different generational differences. But again, engaging it and showing the mechanics but also the other side of it of hey, here’s what contentment looks like. Here’s what generosity does to your heart and your viewpoint in life. I mean, you know, bringing in those hard and soft subjects of money are important to talk to about with kids.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I love, Rachel, how you take folks through this journey of understanding these four different classrooms you mentioned in the quadrant. And it can be heavy to kind of walk through and reflect on some of this. But you end Chapter 3 where you talk about calm money classrooms, you end Chapter 3 by reassuring us that our childhood does not define us. You say, “Your childhood may have given you a rocky start, but it doesn’t make or break you, regardless of the household you grew up in. You get to choose your quadrant from this point forward.” What an awesome view, right? We learn from the past, but we’ve got an opportunity to chart a new path going forward.

Rachel Cruze: That’s right, yeah. I mean, there’s so much hope and I think even in the money piece of my messages that I communicate with people is like no matter what mistakes you’ve made, yeah, maybe you do have a ton of debt. So on a more logistical side, yeah, maybe you have a deeper hole to dig out of than the person next to you, but no matter what, you get to make the decisions to say, no, I actually want to change how I view something or the habits around money. And the same is true with your classroom. Some people, a lot of people I would say, grew up in a hard environment when it came to money with their parents. But yet you don’t have to just mirror that story, right? You can take charge of your life to say, you know what, I’m not going to sit here and bash my parents, but I’m also not going to defend them. I’m going to just tell the truth of what happened, and here’s the truth. OK, there’s some good stuff, and there’s some bad stuff. And the bad stuff I can forgive, and I’m going to move forward though to choose something different for my life and my family. And I think it’s powerful. And I think we have to do that in all of parenting. I’m not a parenting expert by any means, but I’m like, you know, my husband and I have said, OK, this is our family. What are we going to choose to do in this? And so the money pieces is part of that.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And give yourself some grace along the way, right?

Rachel Cruze: That’s right. Oh, absolutely. There’s hope in grace. Absolutely.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. Rachel, in Chapter 4, which is “Your Unique Money Tendencies,” you introduce seven major money tendencies. And we’re not going to go through all of these, but I’ll read them off quickly. And those seven are save or spender, nerd or free spirit, experiences or things, quality or quantity, safety or status, abundance or scarcity, and planned giving or spontaneous giving. And I want to break down one of these further that I suspect our audience has heard of before, and that is the concept of being a nerd or being a free spirit. And so this as one example of these different tendencies, tell us more about the difference between these two and why each really has its own benefits and challenges and we want to think about these on a scale.

Rachel Cruze: Yes. Well, when I did these seven tendencies, I didn’t want one to be right or wrong because I feel like that can happen a lot. You know, it’s just no, these are naturally where you’re bent, and if you go to the extremes of any of these tendencies, that can get unhealthy. Kind of that middle ground is to say, ‘OK, I’m naturally bent towards this, but I can actually have a little bit of both,’ which makes you I think more well-rounded, honestly. But yeah, the nerd and free spirit, that was kind of a phrase that was coined, two terms that were coined by my dad, honestly, about probably 20 years ago talking about the budget specifically and how I make it a little bit more broad in just the idea of how you view money, but one of you — or if you’re married, usually opposites attract. But you either lean toward a nerd, which is the one that yeah, you’re just organized, you probably have Excel spreadsheets all over the place, you love to budget, you love to feel in control, you know what’s going on, you keep up with everything, numbers are your friends, it feels great to know what’s going on. And so that nerd is naturally going to be bent one way towards money, which obviously is more the control factor. Sometimes more the scarcity mindset, they want to just know what’s going on. And then the free spirit is on the opposite end, and that’s the person that is more hey, everything is going to work out. It’s fine, it’s fine. A budget to them, it feels restrictive. It feels like there’s no fun in life if I have to live on a budget, that means I have to say no a lot, and I don’t want to say no. I want to say yes because you only live once, you know? It’s a little bit more of that mentality. And what’s funny is I actually lean more free spirit in who I am, so this money stuff and budgeting, some of it was hard for me to say, OK, I have to learn this because I don’t have to become a nerd to be good at money. That’s not the reason behind this. But it is to say, “Hey, there are qualities that I need to pick up,” because if I’m a free spirit on the extreme of the free spirit side, I’m probably going to be broke. I’m probably going to have lots of debt because I’m not keeping up with anything, I’m just doing what I want in the moment, what feels good. And that’s not wise. But I also don’t have to absolutely love numbers like my husband. He is more of the nerd. Like I mean, he has spreadsheets. He’s like all about the five-year goal and what’s going in each month, looking at the mutual funds. I mean, he just loves it. And I’m like, I’m the money person that talks about this every day, and I don’t love it that much. Like I’ll do the budget and track transactions, but that’s about it. So again, it’s just pinpointing hey, here’s where I lean, here’s places I can learn, and here’s some really great things about that side of the nerd or great things about the free spirit. And then if you’re married, again, it’s good to call that too because I think in marriage, money can be such a difficult subject. But to be able to say, “OK, you’re not my enemy in this. You’re just more of a nerd in that or you’re more of a free spirit, so how can we come together and work as a team?”

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, you do a great job in the book going through each one of these sets that I mentioned and not only what they are and some of the differences and where that balance might but also some great exercises at the end of the chapter where folks can reflect upon those, and I think it would be great conversation starters as well for couples that are going through this together. Rachel, Chapters 5 and 6, it gets real, right? You start to talk about your money fears, six of them in total. And I want to pick apart the fear that you say is the most common one you see, which is not having enough. And essentially, this is if something bad happens, the fear that I won’t survive financially. And as you talk about in the book, this could be job loss, this could be a huge health bill, this could be a major house issue. And really, the list can go on and on of all of the things that might go wrong. And it could be a today thing, a today fear, or it could be a future fear. For example, will I have enough when it comes time to retirement? And I think this quickly becomes overwhelming and for many can become paralyzing. And as you say in the book, the “what if” question, it’s a scary question. And so tell us more here, how can we face this fear head-on without it ultimately paralyzing us to take action with our financial plan?

Rachel Cruze: Yeah, when we talk about fear — for this book, I did a lot of research around it because usually fear is just seen as a 100% bad thing, right? Face your fears, don’t let your fear hold you back, all that. Well, some of that, yes, is very true. I remember talking to Dr. Chip Dodd about this, and I loved what he said because he said, fear can actually be a gift. Fear is your body’s response that you are in need of something. Now, again, when that fear becomes paralyzing or turns into anxiety, like any of that, we don’t want that. But just that initial fear, OK, what is that telling you? Because it actually could be telling you something that you need to listen to to diminish that fear. So for a lot of people — and gosh, we just walked through 2020, right, which was just the craziest year I think of all of our lives, around this. And so you could say, OK, my fear is that if something happens, am I going to be OK? If we lose a job, am I going to be OK? Well, you look at your situation and again, just pulling in just stats that I know that 78% of Americans live paycheck-to-paycheck, the average car payment is around $548, the average family owes $16,000 just on their credit cards. So you put all that together and if something happens, are you going to be OK? Well yeah, you’re going to be able to literally survive. But financially, you’re going to be in a mess. You’re going to be in a mess if you don’t have another paycheck to pay these bills. So let’s look at the reality of what’s going on. Again, it’s not to paralyze you, but it’s to say, OK, what can I do now to get in better control of my money? Am I budgeting? Am I living on less than I make? Do I have an emergency fund? And do I have a goal that I’m working towards that actually puts my money towards something, right? Am I giving? Like am I doing these things? And for a lot of people, if they say, “No, I’m not,” hopefully it’s a little bit of a motivator. I don’t think fear has to be the only motivator, but I think it’s a good jumpstart to it of OK, let’s get some things in place so that we can say, OK, maybe you look up in 24, 36 months, three years down the road, and you’re completely debt-free, you have a fully-funded emergency fund of 3-6 months worth of expenses. You now have retirement planned out, you know how much you’re putting in each month, like you actually have a plan in place. And what caused that may have been that fear of wow, if I lose one paycheck, this entire thing just implodes is what it feels like. So again, let that fear drive you. And again, it’s a big one, that fear of am I going to be OK? And what’s interesting is prior to 2020, it was women’s top financial fear. So for some men, it was oh, there’s a dream that I have that I can’t get to because of my life or you fill in the lank. But women day-in and day-out, consistently when surveyed, it was am I going to be OK? And then I think you fast forward to 2021, I don’t have hard data for this, but I would say a lot of people now are in that bucket.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Rachel Cruze: Because of what we walked through. So again, I want this fear to not turn into something that’s super unhealthy, but I want it to be a little bit of that jumpstart to say OK, is this rational? OK, maybe it is. So maybe I need to change some things. But then also I’ll tell you this too: It could be irrational. I mean, my husband and I have been doing this plan for 11 years of marriage, so we are, we’re debt-free — I mean, we’ve done it to the t. And it works, No. 1, I can say that. I’m the proof. But No. 2, even during the pandemic, I had a few nights where I went to bed thinking, oh my gosh, are we going to be OK? But what allowed me a little bit to have that safety is realizing No. 1, black-and-white on paper, the numbers, yes, we’re going to be fine because we’ve been doing this, we’ve been diligent. But also No. 2, Rachel, it’s a little bit of a wakeup call for me emotionally to say why am I so fearful that this foundation that I’ve set, this financial foundation, that if it was shook, who am I? Right? And it made me do a gut check, honestly, to say OK, where is my identity? Where have I been putting value? Because money, while we need to be responsible with it and we want to be able to do things like get out of debt and build wealth and change our family tree and be generous to others, all of these wonderful things, money is not our God. And if it’s the thing day-in and day-out that you’re looking toward, it’s not going to fulfill you. And I kind of got to a place where I had to do a gut check on myself last year to think, OK, who am I emotionally on that side, right, if that foundation is shaken? So again, this fear conversation I think is a really important one to have. And I think it’s a really good one to have.

Tim Ulbrich: I do too. And I think it can be motivating for the reasons that you mentioned. Our listeners have heard me say many times about really building a strong financial foundation and think about what the building blocks of that are. But there are challenges that can be had in the security of that foundation and what you’re ultimately putting that security in. So I think a great reminder. And this section of the book, as I mentioned, really powerful. You talked through several other fears. We’re just scratching the surface here. You talk about the fears of not realizing your dreams, of not being capable, external fears, past mistakes, repeating the past, you know, all types of things that we want to be considering. So I hope folks will pick up a copy of the book and check that out. Rachel, Part 2 of the book, “Discovering What You Do With Money and Why,” you connect the information the reader learns in Part 1 so that it can then be applied to their personal situation. And one thing that stood out to me in this section was the concept that you talk about, the power of contentment. And you say that “contentment is a process that changes your motivation for spending money.” Tell us more about that.

Rachel Cruze: Yeah, contentment I think is a huge piece of this financial conversation that has to be in place because money is like a magnifying glass. It makes you more of what you already are. And so if you are a discontent person and you think — and it’s all of us, you know, at different times in life for sure and maybe different parts of the day too, so I’m not speaking out of that I have found the answer to it all — but realizing though if we live in a discontentment state, which usually results in OK, if I can just make x amount of money, if I can just buy this kind of car, if I can go on that kind of vacation, if I live in this kind of house, then everything is going to be fixed. And we think that in our culture in our country that our problems are fixed by stuff. And that discontentment is just magnified, and the problem is that if you build wealth and you actually have the money to go and get these things, you get the things, and it doesn’t fulfill you and you’re discontent again with just more stuff around you. And so there’s that heart piece that I think is important to keep in check. And for me, it’s calling out to people, OK, what are the things in your life that money — there’s not a price tag towards. And this was kind of my journey even just last year, I thought, Rachel, what are the things in my life that I can’t pay for. Well, that’s a great marriage, having children that I am trying to raise in the best way possible, my health, my spiritual walk, my family, you know, my friendships, like relationships. So kind of mapping those things out and realizing OK, if I can invest my time and my energy in those things, life is so much richer, right? And again, not that it doesn’t mean you can’t have a great house or go on a great vacation. My husband and I just got back on Saturday from a fun trip that him and I just took, you know, for a few nights. It was fantastic. It was wonderful. But those things don’t fulfill you, right? It’s the fact that I was with my husband. And we got to have that time together. That is what was fulfilling. And so all of that I think stems to that contentment, and that contentment piece, again, I think is — we tried to find it in stuff, and I really push people to find it in things that money can’t buy.

Tim Ulbrich: My favorite part of the book, Rachel, is that you make a really good case for the importance of connecting saving and dreaming. Saving and dreaming. And we talk a lot on this show about having a strong financial why. And this chapter reminded me of that concept. You say that, “Not having any savings is a worrying sign for two big problems. The first problem is that your house isn’t in order. You’re not prepared. But not having savings is also a worrying sign of a second problem: that you’re not tuned into your dreams.” What do you mean by this?

Rachel Cruze: Well, when I did this part of the book, you know, I wanted to kind of walk through OK, why do we spend the way we spend? Why do we save the way we save? Why do we give the way we give? And so when I was in that saving section, I was like, OK, why do we save the way we save? And I’m like, well, what are the things we save for? What are the — I’m like, well, it’s because we have these dreams. Is it to build a house one day? Is it to be debt-free? You know, whatever it is, and that gives purpose behind our dollars. It gives us purpose to say OK, when the money comes in, I actually know where it’s going. It’s going to something that I value in life. And that’s what makes things rich, right? That’s what brings joy. And people that just live life and they’re not intentional, it’s just kind of that paycheck-to-paycheck, I go to work, I get paid, I just keep doing the same thing. And you look up in five years and not much has changed about your life, I bet your savings hasn’t changed either because you don’t have a goal, you don’t have something you’re saving towards. And so that dreaming portion, it is, it’s so, so critical. I mean, any great book motivator that shows you how to be better in certain parts of your life, goals are always in there. Those dreams are always in there. And so there’s the short-term dreams, have something that you’re working towards five years and less so that you can get to it quickly. And then have those dreams that are five years or more that you say, OK, out there in the future, what do I want? And then also have shared dreams. If those two dreams don’t coincide with your spouse, then have something you guys are working at together. I mean, all of this is going to be a partnership if you’re married. But I think having those dreams together is so crucial where yes, we are individuals, so my husband may have a dream to go on a hunting trip, you know, to South Dakota. That’s not my dream. That’s great if that’s his dream. It’s not my dream. So what are the dreams that we have together? And so all of that, it gives you such motivation. And it was funny, that trip we just went on last week, we had an agenda. We had like four things we wanted to talk about. But one of them was we literally set our financial dreams. One of ours was to build a house, and we moved in November of ‘19. And honestly, since then, I mean, we went through 2020, which was crazy. Now, we’re kind of on the other side saying, OK, what do we want? Besides just a number, what are the things that we’re shooting for? And just having those conversations, it’s so fun. I mean, it just brings life to you or again, if you’re married, to your marriage, just to have things that you’re working towards together. Again, it gives you purpose. It gives you purpose to save. And if there’s not purpose to save, you’re more than likely not going to do it.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I think shared dreams, it’s so important. Great wisdom. I think especially for folks that are in the weeds and maybe frustrated with the budget or feeling like a goal is taking forever, I think some of those dreams can lift folks together and get excited behind the vision, you know, especially while there’s other things that are happening along the way. Rachel, I want to wrap up our time by talking about giving. And you make the case that giving is ultimately the antidote to fear. Why is that the case?

Rachel Cruze: There’s something about living life with an open hand where you say, “You know what, I’m actually going to give things,” because I think the opposite of that is that closed fist mentality where you’re going to just control everything and it’s all yours and it’s just all right here, and there’s a level of that that just, it gets exhausting. And there’s not joy in that. And so when you actually open your hand and give, which sounds counterintuitive, right, if I’m trying to put money towards a dream or I’m trying to put money towards getting out of debt or building an emergency fund, but I’m giving some of it away, like that just seems so backwards where in fact what it does is it fuels you. Because when you live a life that you move on the spectrum from being selfish where it is all about you to selfless where you actually see other people and you see OK, the needs that are out there, things that your money can do, even if it’s not a lot of money, but using it as a tool to help people, it changes you. I mean, it really, really changes you. And there’s nothing like it. It’s cliche to say, but it’s true. The joy that you get from giving is unlike any other joy that you can have in life. Like it gives something to you, to your soul. Because I think we were created to be givers. And when you’re living in that, it changes your perspective. And I also think selfless people have a better quality of life. I think they’re better spouses, better parents, better coworkers, better friends. You know, people that actually care about other people, it’s an amazing thing, but I think it does, it gives you a quality of life that’s so deep. And I think that it can be — obviously you can give all different kinds of ways, but your money is one of those. And when you live that life with an open hand, it does something to your soul that I think is so, so healthy in a world that is so self-centered.

Tim Ulbrich: Rachel, great, great stuff. Where is the best place that our community can go to connect with you and learn more about your work?

Rachel Cruze: Yeah, you can go to RachelCruze.com. The book “Know Yourself, Know Your Money” is anywhere books are sold. And I’m also — I have a podcast, “The Rachel Cruze Show” you can check out as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. So to the YFP community, make sure to pick up your copy of “Know Yourself, Know Your Money,” available really anywhere, also available at RamseySolutions.com. We’ve just scratched the surface during this interview. I’m confident you’ll gain so much more from digging into the book and completing the activities at the end of each chapter. In the book, you’ll discover what’s at the root of your money tendencies, including how to overcome your biggest money fears, how your childhood impacts your money decisions today, and what really motivates your spending, saving, giving, and more. Rachel, thank you again for taking time to come on the show. Really appreciate it.

Rachel Cruze: No, thanks for having me. Really, really thankful. Thanks.

[END]

 

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YFP 200: An Interview with Sarah Fallaw of The Next Millionaire Next Door

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An Interview with Sarah Fallaw of The Next Millionaire Next Door

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Dr. Sarah Stanley Fallaw, co-author of The Next Millionaire Next Door and founder of DataPoints LLC, a behavioral assessment advisor fintech company, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about the surprising secrets of those who achieve millionaire status, how psychology and personal finance intersect, and why it is so important to understand your financial behaviors and tendencies.

About Today’s Guest

Sarah Stanley Fallaw, Ph.D. is the co-author of The Next Millionaire Next Door and the founder of DataPoints LLC, a behavioral assessment advisor fintech company. DataPoints created the industry’s first assessment of wealth potential based on The Millionaire Next Door. Her research on psychometrics and financial psychology has been featured in conferences and publications including Financial Planning Review, Industrial and Organizational Psychology, and the Journal of Financial Services Professionals. Sarah received her Ph.D. in Applied Psychology from the University of Georgia in 2003. Learn more about her work and research at www.datapoints.com.

Summary

On this episode, Tim Ulbrich welcomes Dr. Sarah Stanley Fallaw, co-author of The Next Millionaire Next Door and founder of DataPoints LLC to the show to discuss the secrets and behaviors of millionaires in the United States. Dr. Fallaw shares her experience of co-authoring The Next Millionaire Next Door with her father and outlines some of the behavioral research that went into writing it.

Tim and Sarah mention the money personality assessment tool offered by DataPoints that both pharmacists and those in the field of financial advising can use to better understand personal factors that influence spending, saving, and wealth. Tim mentions how when taking this assessment, he was surprised by some of the questions and ultimately how certain personal characteristics can influence financial decisions.

The key points and concepts from The Next Millionaire Next Door are also discussed and related back to the career and financial situation of today’s pharmacists. Concepts included in the discussion include myths about wealth and income, perceptions about wealth and how wealth is built in America, external influences and factors that can ultimately affect our wealth, the typical lifestyle that most millionaires in our country live, treating personal finance like a business, and the investing patterns of millionaires.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Dr. Fallaw, thank you so much for joining us today.

Sarah Fallaw: Thank you for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, I’ve been looking forward to having you on the show and really excited to have you on as a special guest. This is our 200th podcast, so a big moment for us in the YFP community. And you joined us way back on Episode 035, the Science of Behavioral Finance, that went live back in February 2018. So we’re three years ago where you and Tim Baker, our Director of Financial Planning, talked about how your company DataPoints applies lessons from the book “The Millionaire Next Door,” written by your father, Thomas Stanley. And you two, Tim and you also dug into different factors that measure the propensity to build wealth. So today, we’re going to dig a little bit further into that conversation, talk about behavioral finance, the applications to one’s financial plan. But let’s start if you could share a little bit more about your background, your training, your career, and the work that you’re doing with DataPoints.

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me on this milestone episode. That’s exciting for you guys. You know, as you mentioned, obviously connected through my father to “The Millionaire Next Door” and research on wealth. But my background is in industrial psychology. So I’m a psychometrician, if you will, by training. And really, the focus that I’ve had throughout my career is trying to understand characteristics and competencies of individuals. And then of course, in the later part of my career, taking that research that went into “The Millionaire Next Door,” and saying, well, how can I help people understand themselves, particularly clients? How can I help the advisor understand how a client might behave or make decisions about finances related to their personality and things like that. And so that’s my background and how I got into this area.

Tim Ulbrich: So how does one — I have to know — how does one get interested in industrial psychology and become a psychometrician? How does that happen?

Sarah Fallaw: Yes, yeah, how does that happen? Well, you start off in clinical psychology, thinking that you want to help everyone. And then you realize or recognize that you might be better suited for the statistical side of psychology, and so that’s how you end up in industrial psychology. No, really, I felt a calling to be in the business side and certainly industrial psychologists are the ones that are applying psychological principles to the workplace, how do you hire people, how do you develop them, how do you have a great organizational culture? All those things. And so that was really what I was attracted to in the field of psychology and then psychometrics kind of came alongside that really using survey research, test development, all those kinds of things to understand individuals. So that’s how you fall into that. You just kind of start on one path, and you end up on another.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, I really appreciate that. You know, we say often on this show and I know from personal experience, so much of personal finance is behavioral. And we’re going to dig into that a little bit further. And I love the mission that you have and the work that you’re doing at DataPoints, helping advisors understand the client money mindset and how that obviously then connects to the financial plan. And you’ve got a really interesting quiz tool that really helps folks understand their money personality. We’ll link to that in the show notes. Folks can find that at DataPoints.com/personality. So tell us a little bit about this personality test, this money personality assessment and really how it can help someone learn about their financial behaviors or perhaps help the advisor who is working with that client to understand how those behaviors connect with the financial plan.

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, absolutely. So what we know from research, not only obviously that my father conducted but lots of academic research in the fields of financial planning as well as psychology, that certain characteristics about ourselves lead to great money behaviors or maybe not so great choices. So the test that you mentioned is one that measures five factors of personality, which is a really well-researched model, so you know, how are we all different in terms of our attitudes, values, experiences, that kind of thing. And they break down into those five areas that you’ll see things like conscientiousness, so obviously as pharmacists, conscientiousness is of utmost importance. But it’s also an important characteristic when we’re talking about saving and spending and making good financial decisions. So it’s actually predictive of someone’s net worth, it’s predictive of financial success. Some of the other characteristics, things like agreeableness. So how do we get along with other people? Are we there caring for others or are we sort of out for ourselves? What we find, unfortunately, is that those that tend to be a little more agreeable are also those that maybe spend a little bit more than they should. And that makes sense, right? Like we want to pick up the check. We want to take care of this, that kind of thing. So understanding some of those — those are just two of the five — but understanding those characteristics can help you understand what you might do in certain situations and then maybe how to avoid those situations or how to prepare for that situation the next time. So those are some of the things that you can learn about yourself and certainly then, again, if you’re a financial advisor, you can use that information to help your clients as well.

Tim Ulbrich: I really enjoyed this, taking it myself and reading the report and findings. It took me about, I don’t know, 7 or 8 minutes to get through it. And it was different than what I was expecting. You know, I’ve taken lots of money self-assessment tools that are out there, and I think often they’re focused on like your risk tolerance and how conservative or how aggressive. And this really threw me for a loop. I mean, questions like, “I enjoy reflecting on challenges, problems, or large issues,” or “I tend to understand others’ feelings and thoughts. And at first as I was taking it, I was like, how is this going to connect to the financial plan? And then when it got to those five personality buckets that you mentioned, the extraversion, the conscientiousness, the openness, the agreeableness, and the neuroticism, I was like, OK, I’m starting to see the connection and obviously the report and the guide talks about that further. But I can certainly see how one’s awareness of these as well as their coach’s awareness of these could be really helpful as it comes to developing their plan. And I was feeling good, Sarah, about myself when I saw the high conscientiousness, as I suspect many pharmacists would.

Sarah Fallaw: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: And not so good then when I saw oh man, agreeableness, not so high, and neuroticism, a little bit higher. But you’ve got to dig deeper, right, than just the terms that are there.

Sarah Fallaw: Exactly. Yeah. And there’s always a good — a positive and a negative about any score that you have. So obviously taking that openness to experience one as an example, if you are high on it, it means you’re creative, you like new and different experiences. If you’re low on it, you like things to be the same. And so you know, those can be good or bad depending on the situation that you’re in. Certainly for accumulating wealth, it tends to be better if you’re more of a traditional, I like things the way they are. But again, it can be a good thing for your mental health to be trying new things and experiencing new foods and all kinds of things like that.

Tim Ulbrich: Very good. And let’s shift gears to talk about the work of “The Millionaire Next Door” and the follow-up, “The Next Millionaire Next Door,” which was, as I mentioned to you before we hit record, really both of those books have been transformational for me in my own personal journey. And a lot of what we do and the philosophy of what we do at YFP and how we approach our education and what we believe in I think aligns very well with those two resources and the research that you’ve found and obviously a strong connection there to behavioral finance and the work that you’re doing at DataPoints. So let’s start, I suspect many of our listeners have heard of “The Millionaire Next Door,” arguably one of the best personal finance books and resources of all time, and give us a 10,000-foot overview of that book. What was your father’s aim for the book? And ultimately, high level, what were the findings?

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, so it was written — I’ll start with that sort of aim question portion of it. You know, he had spent his lifetime studying how individuals build and sustain wealth. So he studied affluent populations in the United States. He was a marketing researcher. And so his goal with “The Millionaire Next Door” was to help individuals understand that there was this kind of component of affluent America, which was made up of people that did this on their own. It wasn’t just the case that they had rich uncles and aunts and that they were born into a certain kind of family. There still to this day was a large component of millionaires who were self-made. And he felt like there were so many unusual aspects of this group that he wanted to share it with individuals. Early in his career, he was teaching, he was consulting, he was working really, really hard and saw several of his peers do that too. He felt like if he could give people this information that maybe that could save them from some of this constant income earning-spending, income earning-spending cycle that they were in. And so that was really the aim. But again, the 10,000-foot view of the book is really that there are certain characteristics that allow individuals to build wealth over time. And again, a lot of times it has to do with the career you choose, with the spouse you choose, with the place you start living when you first buy a home and things like that. And there are, again, these certain characteristics that millionaires exhibit that allow them to build and sustain wealth over time.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I remember one of the — I can remember one of the tables reading that book, but there’s the big-ticket items like your career, obviously the spouse, the home that you live in, the neighbors and the community that you’re in, all those things that influence your spending patterns and behaviors. And then there’s some other things that may not seem as large on the surface, the jeans you buy, you know, the cars that you drive, things like that that can have a very profound impact and perhaps a window into other spending patterns and behaviors. I personally find, Sarah, that the research that affirms the opportunity for folks to really create their own opportunities and to become self-made, I find that very refreshing and I suspect many of our listeners will who are facing sometimes $150,000-200,000 of student loan debt upon graduation. They’ve got a great income to work with, but they can often feel like they’re starting at point like, oh man, forget about it. Like is there even an opportunity going forward? And I think the compound effect of being intentional with those micro decisions along the way is going to be really important. So why the need for a second edition? Tell us about “The Next Millionaire Next Door” and ultimately how you decided that this resource was necessary as a follow-up.

Sarah Fallaw: You know, that kind of came out of a couple of different things. You know, No. 1, it had been nearly 20 years I think at the time when my father started talking about that, sort of a new book. And it was time to look at some new data, to look at some new aspects of spending, you know, social media was not a thing, right, back in 1996. That was — no one knew that we would have Facebook back then. And so there were a lot of different aspects that he wanted to consider and I was serving in the role of the statistician, I was going to do the survey data collection and the analysis and those kinds of things. And it really wasn’t designed necessarily to be a second edition. You know, he’d had that question asked of him many times by publishers and things like that. But instead, he wanted to really take a fresh look at things. And so yeah, you know, it started off as something that we were collaborating on. And then as you know, he passed away in 2015, was killed by a drunk driver. So I had the privilege of finishing the book without him but certainly the beginning of it and the ideas for it came from him. So yeah, that’s kind of where it came from.

Tim Ulbrich: And there really are so many “Aha!” moments throughout the book. I found myself in both “The Millionaire Next Door” and “The Next Millionaire Next Door,” really shaking my head in agreement with the writing, the research findings, and I think analytical pharmacists and scientists will appreciate the research and the power that’s behind it because often, you know, personal finance education and advice can feel squishy at times. And to really have some research supporting these findings that we can then try to align our behaviors with to give ourself a chance of success I think is very refreshing. So I want to dig into some of the key findings in the book, and I’m going to hit a couple highlights in different chapters of the book hopefully to give our audience really just a sampling of the outstanding content that is throughout and then of course would encourage folks to pick up their own copy of “The Next Millionaire Next Door.” So in Chapter 1, titled “The Millionaire Next Door is Alive and Well,” you share a truth that is so important and I think can often be looked over or easily confused. And that is that wealth is not income. And income is not wealth. So tell us about what this means, what the differences are between income and wealth.

Sarah Fallaw: Yep, absolutely. So I think — and again, you would think after 20 years, 25+ years now, people would see the difference. But it’s hard for even me and certainly my teenagers to even see that. But the truth is how much we make has very little to do with how much we keep. And that’s the idea. You know, we have this confusion in our brain, we see individuals with nice cars or in the best houses or whatever it might be, and we equate spending to having money in the bank. And unfortunately, they’re not. And I think a lot of us, particularly when we come out of grad school, when I came out of grad school, and we have a great big salary and we’re excited about that, you know, again, particularly for pharmacists, it’s just not the same. So we confuse that level of income that we’re receiving with being wealthy, which leads to us spending above our means in terms of our wealth and can lead to a whole host of things. So I think that that’s a mindset that, gosh, if we could teach our kids that, if we could learn that early on in college or grad school, before we have that income that comes in, we would be better off for a whole host of reasons. But yes, that continues to be a struggle. When we work with advisors, that’s one of their struggles, particularly with working with younger clients that are just newly out of school and things like that too.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and if you can crack that nut on teaching your teenagers, let me know so I can teach my boys as well.

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah. Me too.

Tim Ulbrich: Such an important thing of the mindset and a whole separate conversation about what may work, what may not work, and doing that. So you know, I think of pharmacists here, Sarah, and one of the things that pharmacists are blessed with is a great income, often at a very young age, you know, of course I’m overgeneralizing for a moment, but typically pharmacists will come out of school if they go through four years of undergrad, four years of their doctorate training, perhaps some residency after that, you know, still late 20s or maybe early 30s, making a good six-figure income. But one of the challenges is that many pharmacists’ income may remain relatively flat through their career. And so I think this point is all the more important that, you know, I know from personal experience, many of our listeners know that as time goes on, things become more expensive. You know, just generally speaking, right? Our goals, our aspirations, perhaps children, families that are growing, other things that we want to do. And so if our income is not going to see an exponential growth, then we’ve got to really try to be diligent right out of the gates to make sure we establish those behaviors that are going to allow us to create margin. And I know for my wife Jess and I, one of the “Aha!” moments we had early on in our career is OK, good income, but if income comes in and income goes out and it’s not sticking, which I think is really what net worth is a good indicator of what’s sticking, then we’re going to be in trouble ultimately with being able to achieve our long-term financial goals. So net worth, a really good indicator I think of one’s overall financial health. And I think this mindset that you talk about in Chapter 1 is so important. Now, in Chapter 2, “Ignoring the Myths,” you say that in order to build wealth, we have to discontinue or ignore the myths of how wealth is built in America. What do you mean here? And how can we take our financial future into our own hands?

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, you know, there are a couple of things that go along with this, certainly one of them being that, again, wealth isn’t the same as income and things like that. But you know, there are a lot of kind of, again, mindsets from whether we adopted those as children or adolescents, from the life experiences we’ve had, or that’s what we see in the media, that can keep us from kind of owning the building of wealth, right? So how, for example, if I take myself and say, well, I’m a woman, how can I run a fintech company? Well all of a sudden, I’ve created this sort of artificial, if you will, hurdle for me to get past in order to make the right decisions and to continue on. And it’s the same with building wealth. So if we kind of adopt the mentality that ‘Well, I have all this debt, there’s no way I can get out of it,’ or again, for example, ‘I’m a woman,’ ‘I’m a minority,’ or something like that or ‘I’m in this particular group, I won’t be able to get past that,’ that’s one of the things I think that differentiates those that tend to be financially successful is they see past that no matter what group they belong to or kind of what background they’ve experienced in the past, they’re able to move past that. And so there are a lot of those myths, and they have to do more with like financial attitudes, and that can prevent individuals from actually working to achieve goals because they view wealth as something that can’t achieve.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think what you’re sharing here reminds me of so often we, like many other I’m sure financial planners, get questions like, “Hey, what should I do with my student loans? What should I do about this investment? What should I do about that?” And I think what this is highlighting is often we have to really unwind and understand, you know, what are the money scripts that we’ve been told over time? I’ve heard somebody reference it like, you know, whether it’s family interactions, whether it’s societal types of stories that we’ve been told or believed, we all have some script, we have some baggage with us about how we view and interpret money. And that of course has a fundamental influence on how we spend, on how we save, on how we approach this with a significant other. And we’ve got to be able to understand some of that I think and be able to really set goals and understand some of these behavioral pieces before we start to attack the x’s and o’s of the financial plan. And so I hope folks will hear some of this and take a step back and say OK, what are some of my own behaviors that I need to better understand that if I take the time to do so will have a real big influence on how I approach my financial plan. Chapter 3, you talk about the influences on wealth. And you know, one of the questions I think of here is what outside influences may impact one’s ability to build wealth? So how does our upbringing, how do our friends, how does our spouse really play a role in this? And what does the research say?

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, so again, one of the key kind of indicators or predictors of financial success is being able to ignore or to not be influenced. But you know, again, there are a lot of different ways that others can make us feel as if we are making certain decisions. So you know, certainly we can talk about upbringing, we see that if your mom or your father but mostly your mother has the most strongest influence, if they tended to be frugal growing up, you will be frugal in later in life, that kind of thing. But we also see, again, social influence. We see that particularly related to social media but also kind of where you plant yourself in terms of your neighborhood, right? So that can have an undue effect on things like car purchases and things like that. And then again, your spouse, we know that millionaires tend to have spouses that are frugal. So even if they’re out maybe running a business or they’re the primary breadwinner, their spouse tends to be frugal. And we know that that can influence financial decisions in the future as well. So certainly influence can be a good thing, but it can also lead to some pretty poor spending decisions as well. And that’s really where we see the influence. We also see it in investing. So if you think about Gamestop and you see like how everyone kind of behaves when things get really exciting, we can be influenced into some of that. And we’ve seen that that can be a good thing, but it certainly can be a negative as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, we’ve all been told of the circle of influence, right, and those five or six or whatever the number is people that are around us and the impact that they can have. I think it’s no different here when it comes to money. Sarah, I’m curious, I have to know, when you mentioned the research with mom, you know, I’m thinking of my wife Jess really taking a huge role in raising our four boys, like why is that? You know, what is the connection there with the research of the mother and the spending habits that are passed on?

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, you know, it’s not only the spending habits but career influence as well. But I think it’s primarily because of the time spent. So the research that we’ve done primarily with those that are in like their 30s, 40s, you know, you think about that in terms of well, when were they children or adolescents? Well, it still was the case in most cases their mothers were the ones that were home. So I think that that’s why we see that influence more so than the father. But again, we know that if a mother was frugal, if she was showing good financial behaviors growing up and then I mentioned the career piece as well, it’s also the case that if you had — as a mom or as a parent, if you are helping your child understand their career options and what they might do in the future, that can also be a predictor of income and net worth in the future as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Sarah, one of the personal struggles that I have is around the concept of frugality. And you know, I think that there’s certainly a benefit in frugality of being able to make sure being intentional, we can allocate money towards our goals, we can assure we’re taking care of our future selves, but you know, one of the things I hear our planning team say often, which I really admire, is that it can’t just be about the 1s and 0s in the bank account. So if we do a great job of squirreling away $3 or $4 or $5 million but we’re miserable for 30 or 40 years, like so what? What’s the purpose of that? And so there’s this reconciliation of, you know, we’ve got to be frugal to take care of our future self, but I think we’ve also got to make sure we’re prioritizing and enjoying things along the way that drive us to some of the greatest happiness and value. And so I would just love to hear your personal thoughts as I know a lot of it points to the concept of frugality, like what are your thoughts on that reconciliation between taking care of your future self but also making sure we enjoy it along the way?

Sarah Fallaw: You know, I would say a couple things about that. First and foremost, I think you’re right that many of us aren’t really super excited about being in a spartan lifestyle for their entire life and then having all this money left over when they’re 80. That doesn’t sound great. I think that one of the things I’ve learned personally but then also learned through the research and the work that we do is that there are certain individuals, certain clients, certain people, that love being frugal, that sort of get a thrill out of kind of living that way. And then there are others of us that say, “Well, how long will I have to do this?” or “How can I make this as easy as possible?” So I’ll say a couple of things about that. No. 1, I think that as spouses, you have to make sure you’re on the same page, recognize and respect each other’s viewpoint on those things, make sure that there’s room for if the spouse isn’t really excited about being frugal all the time, make sure that there’s room throughout your relationship and throughout your lifetime to enjoy some of the fruits of your labor but then also have respect for the spouse that really does want to make sure that they have everything ready in the future and is OK camping out outside for their spring break and things like that. So that’s what we’ve sort of learned personally but then also, again, through the experiences of our advisors is to understand that about yourself early on, to communicate that, and then again to make sure that the plan that you put in place acknowledges both members of the household.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think this connects so well back to the money mindset concept and the money personality test and really understanding this individually as well as the planner working with the client and the importance of that. In Chapter 4, “Freedom to Consume,” you know, one of the things you talk about there, which I think is a timely topic right now given what the real estate market looks like, which is en fuego —

Sarah Fallaw: Crazy.

Tim Ulbrich: — is home buying. And you know, I think this is a time where I know I’ve talked with many pharmacists over the last six months that are like, ‘I’m looking to buy a home, but I’ve talked with one out in Washington recently, I’m expecting to put $100,000 over asking,’ just kind of is what it is in the market. So this feels like something in the time that might kind of get away from us in terms of where it fits in with the rest of our goals. So talk to us about the research and what you found in terms of the cost of homes that millionaires are living in.

Sarah Fallaw: Typically what we see is that millionaires are — they’re not living in $1 million homes typically. So the majority of them or many of them are living in homes that are less in terms of the value. So we found — I think it was that the current home value for most millionaires — again, this data was taken from 2016 — that it was $850,000, which was significantly higher than in 1996 when I think it was somewhere around $300,000. But you know, inflation, things like that. So I think that that’s one of the important factors. I think also, just from — and again, I’ll use the conscientiousness, you could say frugality, it’s a lot of different things, but I think that millionaires and those that are really savvy about money recognize the costs in moving, the costs in making those large-scale financial decisions. So you know, we have friends and family here in Atlanta, the market is the same as well, you know, where people are — the asking price is just the start. And what we’re seeing is that there’s sort of this excitement about change, excitement about potentially trying to time the market. And I think that millionaires tend to be a little more conservative, maybe like I said, conscientious, they understand the ramifications of making changes like that, and they aren’t necessarily looking for sort of the next big thing. But again, in general, millionaires are not necessarily living in $1 million houses. It’s not always the case.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, really interesting research in that chapter, not only on home buying, which I know is a topic of significance to our audience, but also on things like how are millionaires spending money on cars and clothing? And in terms of cars, what types of vehicles are they driving? New v. used? Luxury? Models, makes, and everything in between. So Chapter 5, you talk about strengths for building wealth. And one of the things that really stood out to me here is this concept of running your home like a business. So what do you mean here? And how can someone that’s listening start applying these principles?

Sarah Fallaw: So connecting back to my industrial psychology days here, I really viewed building wealth as a job, looked at sort of what it took, the complexities of it, everything from kind of dealing with the mundane tasks — or again, some folks might think these are fun — but mundane tasks of paying bills and maybe helping to do your income tax, depending on if you do it or if someone else does it, you still have to get everything together for it, those kinds of tasks as well as communicating with your spouse and communicating with the rest fo the family when it comes time to budgeting and spending and things like that. There are a whole host of things that make someone really great at the job, and then there are of course other things that can keep people from doing that job well. So in terms of strengths for building wealth and kind of thinking about personal finance as a job, it makes you kind of think about it differently in terms of OK, you know, this doesn’t seem so complex. I can think about the individual tasks I have to do and consider can I do this task well? Maybe my spouse can do this tax better than I can. We have that often happen with the advisors we work with who are using assessments to say OK, hey, you know what? You might be better at this than I am. And that would make more sense for you to take this part of it. So if you can look at the job of building wealth or of managing your personal finances well and look at it as a job, you can think about what it takes to do that job well. So that’s kind of how we certainly view it at DataPoints, that was sort of, again, in the last several months of my father’s life, kind of how we started talking about how I explained what we were doing at DataPoints, had to kind of walk him through all of that. But that’s certainly the way that we think it’s easiest, especially for those of us that don’t have a financial background to understand what it takes to actually build wealth.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that really resonates with me because I think that as many of our listeners know from personal experience, this topic can be very emotional at times. And at times, we all can make irrational decisions that often we look back and say, what in the world were we doing with that? And that’s just part of the learning part of the growth? But I think approaching it like a business, you know, helps make this as objective as possible but also helps with thinking about like systems and processes and automation and how do we make sure we can understand where our biases may be, where our shortcomings may be, and how can we build a plan and a system and have a coach and really surround ourselves to give ourself the best opportunity to succeed as possible. In Chapter 7, “Investing Resources,” a whole lot of things we could talk about here that could be a separate podcast in and of itself, but you know, generally speaking, what do you find from the research in terms of what makes someone a successful investor? What are the characteristics and behaviors that somebody will hold in terms of becoming a successful investor?

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, so that goes back to the personality conversation we were having earlier. There are a couple of different key things that we’ve found, one of them being that emotional side of investing, just like you said, the emotions related to money. What we found is that those that really tend to experience negative emotions more than others, so anxiety or fear, we call that volatility composure. That would be a lower score on that component. Those folks tend to have a harder time, especially when things are chaotic. So — and I’ll put myself in that camp a little bit. So we gravitate towards the news, we want to see what’s happening in the markets, we’re constantly looking at our investments. That kind of personality characteristic can lead us to making maybe not-so-great choices related to our investments, particularly, again, when markets are chaotic. Some of the other components include having a longer term perspective on investing. So for those of us who really view investing as a long-term play, it’s helping us build for the future, those investors tend to have more success than those that look at investing as something that needs to be managed on a daily or a minute-to-minute basis and view it more as maybe fun or entertainment versus something that’s a component of their long-term financial success. So those are a couple of the things. You know, confidence is also something important, particularly in terms of making decisions that align with a long-term strategy. So we don’t want to be overconfident. Those of us that tend to be overconfident are often the ones that are timing the market or trying to, at least, but instead having some level of confidence in our financial choices or investing choices can lead to investing success as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and these really resonate to me, Sarah, as a place where a coach can be incredibly helpful in the process because if you can be self-aware of these things and that individual is also aware of these, they can help challenge you appropriately, they can help you stay the course when you have tribulations in the market, which inevitably are going to happen, and I think certainly can be a valuable resource beyond investing but specifically here as we talk about investing. So we have just literally scratched the surface on so much of the rich content that is in “The Next Millionaire Next Door,” so I would highly encourage our listeners to pick up a copy of that book, which you can do pretty much anywhere that you can find a book, whether that’s online, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, so forth. And Sarah, we’re going to link, as I mentioned earlier, in the show notes to the personality assessment available at DataPoints.com/personality. Folks can take that assessment, download that report, work with their planner, provide that information as well. Beyond that, what is the best place that our listeners can go if they want to learn more about your work or if they want to connect with you?

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, so definitely on LinkedIn, Sarah Fallaw. I’m on Twitter @sarahfallaw, so all one word. They can also go to our website, just DataPoints.com. We have a blog. We write — generally our audience is financial professionals, but we also write at TheMillionaireNextDoor.com as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. Well, we will link to all of those in the show notes in terms of the social media and the websites as well as the personality data assessment. Sarah, again, thank you so much for your time. This is a special episode for us in Episode 200. And really excited for the opportunity to be able to interview you as a part of the celebration. So thank you very much.

Sarah Fallaw: Thanks for having me.

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