Real-Estate / Podcast

YFP 399: From Pre-Approval to Closing: Understanding the Mortgage Process (and Common Mistakes to Avoid)

Posted on by YFP Media

Tim Ulbrich, YFP Co-Founder is joined by mortgage loan officer Tony Umholtz to discuss the mortgage process. They break down key steps, from getting pre-approved to closing, highlighting important considerations and common mistakes to avoid when buying a home.

This episode is brought to you by First Horizon.

Episode Summary

In this episode, Tim Ulbrich, YFP Co-Founder and CEO is joined by Tony Umholtz, a mortgage loan officer with First Horizon Bank as they break down one of the biggest financial commitments you’ll ever make—buying a home.

Taking out a mortgage is a massive financial decision, one that can impact your life for decades. From getting pre-approved to signing those final papers at closing, there’s a lot to consider—and a lot of mistakes to avoid.

Tim and Tony walk listeners through the mortgage process step by step. They cover what you need to know before getting pre-approved, how the bank sets your max loan amount, and how to avoid common pitfalls throughout the process.

About Today’s Guest

Tony Umholtz is the Senior VP of Mortgage Banking at First Horizon. He graduated Cum Laude from the University of South Florida with a B.S. in Finance from the Muma College of Business. He then went on to complete his MBA. While at USF, Tony was part of the inaugural football team in 1997. He earned both Academic and AP All-American Honors during his collegiate career. After college, Tony had the opportunity to sign contracts with several NFL teams including the Tennessee Titans, New York Giants, and the New England Patriots.

Being active in the community is also important to Tony. He has served or serves as a board member for several charitable and non-profit organizations including board member for the Salvation Army, FCA Tampa Bay, and the USF National Alumni Association. Having orchestrated over $1.1 billion in lending volume during his career, Tony has consistently been ranked as one of the top mortgage loan officers in the industry by the Scotsman’s Guide, Mortgage Executive magazine, and Mortgage Originator magazine.

Key Points from the Episode

[00:00] Welcome and Market Overview
[00:58] Current Market Conditions and Predictions
[01:20] Impact of Inflation and Unemployment on Interest Rates
[02:23] Regional Market Fragmentation
[03:15] Affordability Challenges for First-Time Homebuyers
[04:03] Understanding Your Budget and Financial Plan
[05:17] Lender’s Perspective on Affordability
[06:46] Debt-to-Income Ratio Explained
[09:27] Student Loans and Mortgage Affordability
[14:06] Importance of Credit Scores in Mortgage Lending
[19:29] Pre-Approval vs. Pre-Qualification
[23:41] Common Mistakes in the Lending Process
[28:18] Understanding Self-Employed Income for Loans
[30:31] Importance of Early Communication with Lenders
[32:05] Navigating Loan Options and Interest Rates
[39:55] The Pharmacist Home Loan Product
[43:21] Behind the Scenes: From Contract to Closing
[55:09] Final Thoughts and Resources for Homebuyers

Episode Highlights

“ We need to stop bemoaning the interest rates of 2020, 2021. Those days are gone. If those days come back, there’s going to be an opportunity to refinance, but we’ve got this new reality in front of us.” – Tim Ulbrich [3:04]

“ Banks and lenders have to show that the borrower has the ability to repay, and there’s certain documentation that’s required as a result of that.” – Tony Umholtz [05:41]

“ People don’t always realize that too. If one spouse or co borrower has lower credit scores that can influence the loan pricing.” – Tony Umholtz [09:12]

“ Credit is critical to to all of the lending world. Income is super critical too, because you have to show the ability to repay. But a lot of programs now have minimum credit scores. So if you don’t meet that threshold, you’re not qualified.” – Tony Umholtz [14:33]

“ It’s really one of the safest times that I’ve ever seen as far as lending goes to, to buy because the regulatory environment is very consumer friendly.” – Tony Umholtz [38:50]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tony, welcome back to the show.

Tony Umholtz: Tim, thanks for having me. Good to see you.

Tim Ulbrich: Good to see you as well. And as always excited to have you on as our mortgage lending expert to bring great information to our community and audience. And we’re going to talk about the A to Z of the mortgage process, uh, all the way from pre approval to closing. But before we do that, as I always do, I want to ask.

I can get your take on what the heck is going on in the market. Where are we at? And what might 2025 bring? It feels like we’ve had this conversation a few times of, Hey, rates, rates are stubborn, supply is limited. Demand is high. What, what do you see out there in the market and what’s ahead for the year?

Tony Umholtz: Yeah, all good [00:01:00] questions, Tim. It’s definitely interesting times. Um, you know, a lot going on, different markets can vary a little bit, you know, across the country clearly, but we are seeing more inventory. So that’s the good news for buyers. There’s more inventory of existing homes on the market than there’s been in some time.

So the inventory levels are increasing. I would say that one concern, you know, obviously is inflation. Inflation is It has yet to be completely beaten in the fed’s eyes, right? So I think I think we’re going to see inflation ease down probably in the coming months because Year over year inflation it reports will factor in some lower months You know april may june of last year into the annual figures and I think you’re going to see That inflation rate come down also got to watch the unemployment rate too.

Cause the unemployment rate is near all time lows, but I think that could tick up a little higher. [00:02:00] And if that does even just fractionally, that can help with interest rates. So I do think there’s a chance rates could be a little bit better in the next six months. But I wouldn’t bet on like a really seeing anything like the 2021 or 2020, but overall, the economy is pretty healthy.

There’s just risks to watch. And I think rate wise, it’s inflation. And, um, you know, but then there’s some areas that have been hit, you know, obviously, L. A. with the fires, right, Florida with the hurricanes, housing markets. Are affected by that. And, you know, we see I’m based in Florida and we can see like this fragmented market where certain areas that weren’t affected by flooding have, you know, all time highs in prices were issues along the coast are, you know, some of those homes have been hit pretty hard and the values are down, probably an opportunity in the long run, but it’s just there is some fragmentation to the housing market.

But overall, I would say, um, you know, [00:03:00] inventory levels being higher is going to help buyers.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s good to hear. And I, I think we need to stop bemoaning the, uh, interest rates of 2020, 2021 and those days are gone. Right. And, you know, we, we’ve got a new reality, you know, maybe they come down slightly. If, if those days come back, there’s going to be an opportunity obviously to refinance, but we, we’ve got this new reality in front of us and Tony, what I’m hearing from a lot of pharmacists, homebuyers, especially first time homebuyers is.

You know, salaries have remained relatively flat. You know, some have seen a substantial increase. Student loan debt is still a thing very much for a lot of our audience. But the home prices and the appreciation that’s happened alongside of the interest rates that have gone up, it’s really changed the affordability question, you know, for a lot of Pharmacists, especially first time homebuyers, and for many, I think it’s changed that expectation of what might be within budget, and I want to start there as we talk about the A to Z of the process from pre approval to closing, because I [00:04:00] think first and foremost, we have to know our budget.

We have to understand that what are we able to afford and our own financial plan, and I’ll get your take in a moment here on kind of how the bank makes this determination, but it’s really up to you as the individual to determine what that is. Mortgage payment with principal interest taxes and insurance referred to as as pity works with your income, your expenses, your various goals.

Keyword being your right. Everyone’s situation is different and any mortgage calculator. And we’ve got a YFP mortgage calculator that we can link to in the show notes as well. Any mortgage calculator will ask you for inputs on what’s the target loan amount, what’s the down payment, what’s the interest rate, what’s the term, what’s the taxes, and and the insurance aspects of the buy as well.

And all of those things we have to factor into as we’re looking at how does this home purchase, how does this decision factor into the [00:05:00] broader financial plan. So Tony, I’m going to stop with my rant on, you know, how people need to be thinking about their individual purchase and how it fits into the broader context of their plan and their goals and get your take on how the lender determines what the buyer can afford.

Because early on in this process is going to come a pre approval, but before we get that pre approval, we have to understand how the bank thinks about the lending decision and what ultimately a home buyer can afford. Hmm.

Tony Umholtz: Right. That’s right. So all lenders are required to prove it’s called the ATR rule. The ability to repay pretty simple, but it’s. Banks and lenders have to show that the borrower has the ability to repay, and there’s certain documentation that’s required as a result of that. So that’s why lenders will ask for your pay stubs, tax returns if you’re self employed, bank statements, asset statements, uh, work history.

They’re required by law [00:06:00] to prove, you know, per that rule, right, the ability to repay the loan. So, I would say that, you know, you hit it on, you, you hit it right on there, Tim. I mean, you want to prove. First of all, backtrack before you go to a lender, get your own budget together. Like what can I afford? What really can I afford?

Cause the lender might be able to approve me for more than I’m willing to pay. Right. That does happen. You might have a travel budget. You might have, um, a savings goal.

Tim Ulbrich: Right. Right.

Tony Umholtz: And, and you, you come in and you say, well, wait a minute, I can qualify for the 800, 000 home, but I don’t, I don’t want that. Right.

It’s because my budget doesn’t allow that. So I think having your budget is important. I think the other thing. Us as lenders are going to look at your, your debt to income ratio. So that’s the buzzword here, debt to income ratio. So as a lender, we assess you based upon how much income to debts that [00:07:00] you have per month.

So let’s just say your income is 10, 000. Okay. That’s your gross income. And lenders always use gross income. If you’re W2, we use your gross, not your net. So that’s been a question over the years that I’ve received. And we use your gross income and let’s say your liabilities before the mortgage. Our 4, 000 a month before you get a mortgage.

Well, typically we’re not going to lend you more than a 43 percent debt to income ratio. So already right there, if you’re making, you’re paying 4, 000 a month in debt, let’s say it’s student loans. You have a couple of cars, it’s 4, 000 a month. There’s not a lot there to buy a home.

Tim Ulbrich: Mm hmm.

Tony Umholtz: that’s how lenders look at it.

It’s based upon the debt to income ratio. And that’s a simple way to illustrate it is if your gross income is 10, 000, Your liabilities are 4, 000 a month where you’re at a 40 percent debt to income ratio. Most programs are 43%. There are a few that will go up to 49 percent debt to income ratio, but [00:08:00] that’s generally where you’re going to be.

So, and that includes the new mortgage. So that’s how lenders look at you, look at you as a borrower. We have a ratio to your income to your liabilities, and that’s how we prove the ability to repay the loan.

Tim Ulbrich: So Tony, when a lender’s looking at that ability to repay the loan, the ATR rule that you mentioned, the debt to income ratio, um, inclusive of course of what that new payment will be. Is that principal and interest only? That they’re, they’re factoring in

Tony Umholtz: It’s P I T I,

Tim Ulbrich: P I T I.

Tony Umholtz: Yeah, it’s P I T I. So taxes and insurance matter as well. So it’s that whole, that’s entire collective amount. Um, so that’s, that’s how we review it. And again, it’s, and it’s all borrowers on the loan too. So if you have, um, a spouse that’s on the loan with you, obviously we use your spouse’s income as well.

So it would be collective income, you know, or if you have a co borrower, uh, it’d be collective income. So that’s how, it’s one way. Folks are able to qualify for more, [00:09:00] um,

Tim Ulbrich: too, right?

Tony Umholtz: debt as well. That’s right. That’s right. But, um, you got to remember that too. It’s true. Uh, it is collective debt and it’s collective credit scores.

People don’t always realize that too. If one spouse or co borrower has lower credit scores that can influence the loan pricing. Um, so that’s something to keep in mind too. Even if the other borrower, the main primary borrower has better credit.

Tim Ulbrich: have a question about credit that I want to come back to here in a moment, but I want to first tackle what I’m guessing many of our listeners are thinking as they hear you talk about the ability to repay rule and the debt to income ratio, which is my student loans, right? You know, we certainly do have people that may have some credit card debt.

Some car debt, um, other debt that may, may be hanging around as well. But student loans tends to be the grill in the room when we think of many pharmacists, especially first time homebuyers. Uh, we might have some listening that are thinking about a homebuyer that’s not the first time and maybe the student loans are [00:10:00] gone.

And certainly that would free up some things on the debt to income ratio. But if we think of a traditional pharmacy graduate coming out with 170, in student loans, Depending on their loan repayment plan, that can be a sizable monthly payment. So if you put that debt on a standard 10 year repayment, you’re talking about 1, 900 to 2, 000 a month.

On the other hand, you might have somebody that, you know, is looking at an income driven repayment plan and they’re, they’re really optimizing the calculation and they’ve got that down substantially, 700 a month. Wow, that can have a big impact. Tony on how that gets factored in. So given all the uncertainty right now about student loans and what’s happening and people that are on, uh, pauses because of the uncertainty with the save plan, how are lenders thinking about.

Student loans. Are they applying a generic calculation or are they getting to the level of detail of, Hey, this person’s on a standard repayment. This person’s on an income [00:11:00] driven repayment.

Tony Umholtz: Yeah, it’s a great question, Tim. So I, so a couple of things, uh, the, the first thing is most clients that come to us are already kind of ahead of the game. They have one of those two options. I find the income based repayment plan is what we like to see, right? That’s what normally is what I see. Um, because.

The, the, the payment is then gives them the ability to borrow more and buy a home, um, or pay rent or whatever it might be. Um, so normally we see that income based repayment and that’s what we encourage everyone to go to if we can. Um, there is a factor though for those that aren’t quite set up. There is a factor that we have on some of our programs that takes a factor of the loans.

So like, for example. One of our products is at half percent of the balances per month. So for, if you had a, um, a hundred, a hundred thousand dollar loan, that would be a 500 a month payment, right? [00:12:00] Where Fannie Freddie are typically 1 percent month

Tim Ulbrich: got it.

Tony Umholtz: conventional loans or FHA. So there’s some products out there that can give you a little bit more flexibility.

Um, which is, is needed a lot of times in with your clients, uh, in, you know, the audience. But, um, I find that the income based, I would encourage everyone if they can, if they have that option, the income based repayment is going to give you the most flexibility and allow you to have the, you know, kind of the best approach to, to, uh, financing a big purchase like a home.

Um, because if you have that 10 year, you know, like you said, 1, 900 a month versus maybe 500 a month really locks you in. You know, it doesn’t give you a lot of capacity to borrow.

Tim Ulbrich: You know, it’s interesting. There’s a lot of strategy here. And, you know, I’m thinking about more of the work that our planning team does where not Anyone decisions in a style. This is a great example where if you’ve got student loans that you’re paying off And you’re thinking about buying a home [00:13:00] You can’t look at those as independent variables and and of course there’s many other parts of the plan as well But knowing the debt to income ratio is based on gross income I’m specifically thinking about our folks that work in the non profit Sector that might be pursuing something like a public service loan forgiveness strategy that are on an income driven repayment plan and are optimizing that plan Not advice, but just kind of talking about how the calculations work and they’re optimizing that plan.

By really making contributions to, you know, traditional 401k’s or traditional 403b’s that might be making HSA contributions, other types of things where they’re reducing what that monthly payment will be, um, through the calculations of the income driven repayment plan, all the while making their debt to income ratio, you know, more favorable.

And of course, having you. More loans that would be forgiven and ideally forgiven tax free. So just a great example where, Hey, if I’ve got student loans and I’m going down this pathway, this strategy, and I’m also thinking about buying a home, we got to bring these two discussions [00:14:00] together and figure out how the different Uh, pieces of the puzzle ultimately work, work together.

So credit, I want to come back to my credit question, Tony, what role does a credit score play in getting a mortgage? I think the obvious being of course, better credit is, is going to be more, more favorable lending terms, but for our listeners that especially are going through this for the first time, like how much does credit matter when it comes to not only getting approved, but getting the best products at the best rate.

Tony Umholtz: right? Well credit is critical to to all of the lending world uh Obviously income is is super critical too because you have to show the ability to repay But a lot of programs now tim they have minimum credit scores. So if you don’t meet that threshold, you’re not qualified so, um Uh, and like us as an institution, as a bank, we have a minimum credit score, uh, depending on the products, you know, [00:15:00] some are lower than others, uh, but, but credit scores matter to rates as well, right?

Big, it’s a big influence on rates. So if you have, you know, a, a lower credit and that can dictate what product I’m going to recommend too, right? So if the, your credit score is a little bit lower, let’s say you have a, a six 20 credit score. And you come to me with less money down and I can maybe get you Qualified for conventional or FHA Well, I may say FHA in that in that situation because the rate may be better based on your credit score So everybody’s a little different everyone’s situations different but credit scores are very important and i’ll just mention a couple quick things um I’ll just add this in to him.

I just a couple things just for my years of doing this Uh 22 and a half years of this industry Is Mistakes. And I brought this up in the past, maybe a couple of years ago, but I’ll just reiterate it. And one thing where most people get caught up is I [00:16:00] find a lot of my clients are concerned about inquiries, right?

Oh, my credit’s run. I’ll have an inquiry. And inquiries are the least amount impactful on your credit. You don’t want a whole bunch of them. And you definitely don’t want a bunch from multiple creditors, you know, getting credit cards and things like that. But where I see the biggest mistakes is credit card usage.

So if you have a 5, 000. Visa credit card and you go and you buy something for 4, 500 and it’s not being paid down that hits your credit much worse than an inquiry. And the other thing I see is. Buying furniture, buying TVs, when they give you no interest for a year, it’s a great deal. And I even did it on one of my first homes when I was in my mid, my mid twenties.

And I’ll never forget my credit score and down 60 points because I had multiple maxed out credit cards for this no interest for a year. So that’s just a couple of things that, you know, younger buyers and any buyer can look at, but you want to make sure all your [00:17:00] payments are on time. And the credit score is very, very important.

And one other thing I’ll mention as well is monitoring services. The monitoring services do not always tell you exactly or specifically what your actual credit score is that, that a creditor like us is going to see. Okay. They’re going to give you trends. Like I have some people tell me, Oh yeah, my, my, my score is eight 60.

Well, they don’t even go that high. Okay. So, and then you’ll run the credit report and it’s seven 70. And it’s just because it’s still great credit score, but the tracking services are not the

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. Mm-hmm

Tony Umholtz: what we’re looking at. So I try to encourage people to, to that. It’s great that you subscribe to that. It does give you overall trend, but that is not exactly what a creditor score is going to be.

Tim Ulbrich: So you’re talking about like a Credit Karma or some service out? Right.

Tony Umholtz: Yeah. Yeah. I think some of the credit card companies discover all they, they offer these services that track your credit and [00:18:00] people will even scan these to me and say, Hey, this is where I’m at. And, and, and it gives me a good trend, but that’s not what your scores are, you know? So, and then there’s three, there’s three scores that lenders look at as well.

Okay. So that’s another thing I want everyone to know is. There’s Experian, Equifax, and TransUnion. Those are the three large, you know, basically repositories of credit information. And when lenders, mortgage companies run your credit, we use the median score. The median score, so your mid score.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think your, your discussion of credit is just such a good reminder here in the home buying process, but as an overall part of the financial plan, I, I feel like credit, kind of like tax, right? It has a thread that runs across everything. Um. And we’ve talked at length, not only you and I, but we’ve also done some other episodes on understanding credit scores, you know, why it’s important to check your credit report, uh, understanding the components and make up of the credit score.

You were talking about utilization there just a few [00:19:00] moments ago, the more you know about credit, the more you can start to understand. And especially thinking about our listeners, Tony, that maybe they’re saying, Hey, I’m going to buy. A year out, two years out, or I’m not even thinking about it now. What a great time to really solidify your, your credit so that when you get to that point in decision of buying, you know, you’re, you’re ready to go and, and you’ve ultimately, uh, made your credit the best that it can be.

So such an important topic, all of this, Tony leads up to the pre approval. So as we wrap up this first section, we’re talking about pre approval budget. You know, the, the bank’s going to ask us to submit a bunch of information that’s going to help them determine what is that. Ability, right, that they have to be able to lend a certain amount of money and through the submission of information in terms of pay stubs, pay stubs and work history, we’re obviously doing a credit, uh, pull and check as well.

They’re going to then hopefully issue what would be a pre approval. So remind us of that pre approval. [00:20:00] Why is that pre approval so important and how that differentiates from pre qualifications, which I’m seeing more and more out there as well.

Tony Umholtz: Yeah, another good question. So a pre qualification is not validated data by a lender, right? So it’s basically, um, a lot of online Services and pages have this where you can pretty much or verbally supply your information. So if you were to call and say, you know, Tony, I make 100, 000 a year. I have 2 debts, 2 car payments at 500 a month.

And, um, that’s it. Right. And then you would send out, nothing’s validated, right? Credit score might not be run. I haven’t seen your, your pay stubs. Haven’t seen your W2s. Haven’t seen your credit. Like I mentioned. So it’s verbal data. Right. And, and that’s why. Those letters generally don’t carry much weight in the real estate community.

So if you go to a realtor and say, I want to [00:21:00] make an offer, or I want to work with you to find a home, a lot of times they’ll say, well, do you have a pre approval and if you answer, no, I have a prequalification, they. They’re not going to put much weight in that. So the prequalification is fine just for basic knowledge.

I think if you’re just trying to think ahead of time, you’re a few months away from your, you know, really getting into the home buying process. It’s fine to do that. Like I give verbals to people all the time. They’ll call me, especially past clients to say, do you just kind of thinking about this? And does this make sense? But we’re not going to give them anything in writing like that. It’s more just a conversation, but when you’re ready to go look at homes and walk into open houses, a lot of times they’re going to want that letter. So that pre approval letter carries a lot more weight because we’ve ran credit. We’ve seen your income, um, whether it’s W 2s or pay stubs, we’ve seen your liabilities.

So then we can say, okay, in writing. This client is approved for this 700, 000 [00:22:00] mortgage. And a lot of times the listing agent will want that before you even go into the house, you know, just depends on the, the area and the situation, but a lot more weight is given to that preapproval letter. And those are generally good for 90 to 120 days.

Um, so you got some length before you have to update them, but, uh, yes, it’s a big difference. It’s, it’s validated versus unvalidated would be a good way to say it.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, the way I think about it, Tony is, you know, that letter, that pre approval letter becomes the key, if you will, that you can really go out, work with a realtor and put in an offer, uh, and feel, feel good about the process moving forward. And I’m glad you mentioned the timeline, 90 to 120 days, because I think that’s one thing that first time home buyers, especially might not be thinking about is how long does that last?

And Ideally, you start this process because it’s going to take time, right? To gather all of your documents. And, uh, I’m thinking about the [00:23:00] last time, Tony, that even went through this with you guys, like you’ve got an online portal helps you kind of walk through each of the individual steps you can’t submit, right?

Until you, you have all the check boxes of the individual, uh, items uploaded and it could just take time to gather. those documents and make sure you have all the right information. And we all know from experience how quickly we can go from, hey I think I want to buy a home, to we want to put an offer. So If it’s within the realm of, hey, I think we might start to be serious about looking, I think moving that pre approval process forward, knowing that you’ve got a 90 to 120 day ish timeline, uh, can be a really smart thing to do for people that are in that, that search phase.

Tony, I want to tap into more of your experience, uh, to, to get your insight on some of the common mistakes that you see. Out there that are, that are made throughout the lending process. And then we’ll continue on talking about some of the different loan options, uh, as well as wrapping up with the closing side of things.

We talked about a big one [00:24:00] already, which was the credit mistakes. And, uh, I love your example of, Hey, if you go finance a thousand dollar piece of furniture and you max out that line, that’s a problem. And people might not be thinking about that. So beyond credit mistakes that people can avoid, what are some of the other big mistakes that you see out there that.

Uh, home buyers are, are making in the process that they could be on the lookout for, and, and ideally avoid.

Tony Umholtz: Yeah, I mean, again, in this kind of going over my career and mistakes that I’ve seen and, you know, it’s one of the One of the biggest things I feel like nowadays people are much more informed than they were when I started my career 20 plus years ago. I mean, there’s more people are more informed. I think where I see some mistakes now are this type of property you’re buying.

And what I mean by that is some clients are buying condominiums and they don’t always know the challenges that come along with that [00:25:00] condominium. Yeah. You may not have to mow the grass or take care of the shrubs or whatever it might be, but HOAs, special assessments. Especially in certain states like, you know, for example, Florida, we had the surfside incident.

There’s been a lot of regulatory challenges that have been placed on on condos and made them much more difficult to finance, much more expensive. And I’m not saying don’t buy condos. I don’t want, I mean, they’re especially in some states. They’re the best option available. Um, like if you’re in a more urban setting, sometimes that’s all that’s available.

It’s affordable, but I think doing your due diligence on the building itself is very important. And I’ve seen some people making mistakes recently in that regard. So if you decide you want to buy a condominium, just, you know, a lot of that’s property specific, right? Um, I think it’s also just, you know, making sure you understand the insurance.

Uh, what comes along with your coverages? Um, you know, uh, some of the insurance companies [00:26:00] now are doing roof schedules instead of an entire roof replacement and look, probably not a lot of worry about that in Ohio. But if you’re on the coast in Texas or in Florida and you have a storm, it damages your roof.

We’re seeing some problems with that here right now. Um, so just understanding the coverages you have. But again, it’s very specific to where you are in, in, in the country, you know, um, I, I think the other thing is, is, uh, floating the market sometimes. I mean, people come to me, what I mean by that is once you get a contract on a home, you’re eligible to lock your rating.

And I, I’ve mentioned this, I’ve always been a bit of a finance nerd. So I’m watching the markets. I’m watching bonds. I’m doing all these things. And I try to give my clients the best. Feedback. I can, and I pass it along to my team. We meet and talk about this daily. Um, but it’s volatile, right? It’s a volatile market and, and rates go up and [00:27:00] down. I have had some people, and I tend to be people who are feel like they’re more informed on the markets. Typically not medical professionals. It’s more like people in the business world that I’ve had. And I’ll kind of say my recommendation is lock. Well, I think I’m going to float it. And of course the rates go up a half point and things like that.

And look, I’m not saying I’m always right. I’m not clearly, I wouldn’t be here. I’d be trading on some Island if I knew everything and had a crystal ball. But I think sometimes taking too much risk is a problem. I kind of like a bird in hand. If you’ve gotten a gain, the rates have come down a little bit since you’ve gone under contract.

You might want to lock that gain in. It’s always been my experience, you know, take, take it off the table. Unless you really see a downtrend. We saw that during COVID, we could all identify it, but normally like in this environment, you get a gain, you should take it. Um, you know, the, the other thing is just not understanding the type of income you have, and most of your audience, Tim is [00:28:00] W2’d for the most

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, most part. Mm

Tony Umholtz: but, but not everyone, some have 1099 income.

A lot of physicians are doing locums, right? They, they’ll come to us and they, they, they had some fragmentation in their income because they, they, they worked here for six months and lenders don’t treat all income the same. And you have to understand that. I had a gentleman in my office just before this call, past client of mine, and he took a lot of losses on his business, uh, the last few years.

And he had to do it because of some competition abroad. But the problem is the end of the day, we’ve got to use what he reported to the IRS. So you always got to remember lenders have to use what you, they, what they, what you reported to the IRS. And, you know, people will say, well, I actually made more than that, but there’s ways we can add back certain expenses, like especially non cash expenses, like amortization, depreciation, some things like that can be added back into your [00:29:00] overall income if you’re self employed.

But that’s another mistake I see, Tim. Again, not as relevant with all of your audience, but some, maybe someone out there is when you’re self employed, it’s important to understand how you’re getting paid and what you’re getting paid. Are you an S corp or your 1099 LLC? These things are important when you apply for a loan.

So there’s a little more complexity there, but I think it’s important. That’s the mistakes I see is they’re all, they’re almost, I’ve had, I mean, I literally have one person under contract right now who we’re going to have to scramble to figure out how to qualify. And they never came to us first.

Tim Ulbrich: Mm.

Tony Umholtz: and it’s, it’s pretty substantial contract on a home, like a dream home, but that should have been planned ahead of time and let us look, review everything before it comes to this.

So I know it’s long winded. I’m just trying to think of some current things I’m seeing right now in this environment. In the past, there was different risks. Now it’s just really property specific, your [00:30:00] income. I think the other thing would be how far away you are from your job is important to, uh, it’s gotta be reasonable.

Right. You can’t be buying a home to, you know, 200 miles away from where your daily commute is. I’ve had a few people do that. I’m scratching my head. I’m like, well, a primary home may not be a primary home, maybe a secondary home, you know? So I think those are the things, just make sure you have your plans accurately spelled out to the lender at application.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I’m glad you mentioned the self employed income because you’re, you’re right. There’s not a large percentage of pharmacists. There are certainly some listening out there that need to be thinking about that well in advance. And, um, I think communication is, is what I’d recommend they’re just early communication with the lender.

So you understand how they would view the calculation and what information is, is needed and might take a little bit more work to get all that information and make sure you understand. Certainly a decent amount of number of people in our audience that might have a [00:31:00] spouse or a significant other partner that owns a business.

I just had a conversation earlier today where. A pharmacist is a ED clinical pharmacist, but their, their spouse owns a construction company. Um, so maybe their income is pretty stable and, and all W 2, but there might be, uh, some self employed income in there that needs to be, needs to be factored in for sure.

Tony Umholtz: Thing that, that a lender can do is if we see, and I’ve had this happen numerous times, even within your, your community, Tim is when we have pharmacists and their spouse or their partner has a business and it’s losing money. And we, we identify that and we say, well, this actually hurts your qualifications.

We can tell you that ahead of time, you know, and say, help with the guidance of. Well, you might be grossing 2000 a month cash in your pocket from that business, but you’re showing it you’re losing 500 a

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Tony Umholtz: Right? So that’s important to that’s a mistake I run into as well. So,

Tim Ulbrich: on your [00:32:00] tax return? What’s on your tax return? Yeah. Um. I want to talk about loan options and a little bit about interest rates as we work our way through the process. So we started with the pre approval, the budget. We talked about some of the common pitfalls that happen along the way as well, and certainly getting to the right quote, right loan option is an important determination.

And we’ve talked at length on previous episodes about the different. Loan options. So I don’t feel the need that we have to go through every single one of those again. And the more you and I’ve talked, Tony, the more I’m convinced that it’s, it’s less about the borrower coming and saying, Hey, this is the option that I want.

And this is the rate, you know, that I’m looking for. And it’s really about. finding that good lender relationship where that person can understand your situation and ultimately apply and recommend what is the best loan option for your personal situation, right? Because you’ve given me many examples before where someone comes to you and [00:33:00] says, Hey, I really want to apply for the pharmacist home loan.

And maybe that’s a slam dunk, but maybe they’d be a better fit because of what’s going on with rates or credit scores or other things with an FHA product. And so Talk to us about that relationship a little bit and, and, and why it’s, it’s important for the lender and the lendee ultimately to come to that determination of what, what is the best loan option for their personal situation?

Oh, geez.

Tony Umholtz: environment is. Probably one of the most critical I’ve ever seen of, cause there’s been so much change in the secondary market to where there’s opportunities where like it during COVID, I mean, there was products that like I wouldn’t deviate from, you know, you know, everyone I could get into one product because the rates were so good in that one area I tried to, but now things have changed where the secondary market, there’s opportunities that, that arise.

So. Based on credit score, debt to income ratio, [00:34:00] there’s a lot of reasons why we try to make sure we find the best product. It’s not always the pharmacist’s product. A lot of times it is, but there are times, scenarios, where there’s programs that make more sense based on that individual’s debt to income ratio, just what we covered today, credit score, that matters.

Pricing can be much better with, for example, FHA. when your credit score might be a little lower. The FHA pricing has gone through times where it’s just incredibly good, even though there’s some PMI. So I really try to make sure we’re matching that best product. And then there’s some geographical programs, depending on where a home buyer is looking that, um, You know, we’ve used to that are that are kind of unique to that area based on a load of moderate, moderate income, even, you know, depending on the track you’re buying in census track.

There’s all sorts of different programs out there and I try not to limit or be short sighted. [00:35:00] Um, so, uh, we try to look at what the best opportunity is at a given time. And, and I have done that throughout my career, no matter where, you know, whatever the timing was. Um, I’ll never forget. I’ll tell one quick story just you guys might be too young for this, but it’s, but if you ever saw that movie, the big short, you’ll remember this.

But during 2004, five and six, 2004 and five, primarily Lehman brothers had this great program. I did a lot of a paper lending. I never did the, like the subprime lending back then. And I was young, but I was the second top producer at my mortgage, the mortgage company I worked for in the country. And I worked really hard.

It was 12 hour days. I loved it. I had one part time assistant, but different times, but Lehman brothers had this great product where with a second mortgage, we could do 65 percent LTVs and get the best pricing I’d ever seen a bit, but they were using it for non [00:36:00] doc, they actually had this stated income product, which I didn’t do a lot of, but this particular program had just the best rates.

Well, I ended up being invited to this call where they were telling me how, Oh, you, you know, we really like this, what you’re doing. And basically we’ll buy like a hundred percent loans with no income verification and all this stuff. So it was, it was crazy times and sure enough, a few years

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tony Umholtz: everything blew up.

But my point is this, we found that the best pricing was through that product and we utilized it. Right. So, and it helped a lot of, of our clients and I. Nowadays, there’s nothing like that out there. It’s basically pretty vanilla. You have, you know, um, you know, several different options, but we always try to find it the best option for that individual, but, um, I’ll never forget being on that call and having that pit in my stomach being like 27 years old, thinking it doesn’t sound right, you know, it, this doesn’t sound right.

And then a few years later, it all went

Tim Ulbrich: Here’s why it didn’t sound right. Yeah. [00:37:00] Yeah. I think there’s just a lot to think about here that can be so overwhelming for a first time homebuyer if they’re just Google searching, right? It’s, you know, they’re looking at, uh, different rates, fixed rates, uh, variable rates, adjustable rate, mortgage products are out there.

They’re looking at different terms that are out there. They’re looking about options that have points or don’t have points or reading about different loan types. And, you know, should I do a 30, a 20, a 15, and how much is it going to take for a down payment? And to me, this is where some of the internet searching, and I learned this the hard way one time where.

You know, you’re excited about buying a home, you put in your information, and all of a sudden the phone starts ringing 24 7, right? And, the problem with that is, it’s not only is it annoying, but it’s narrowing you down a pathway too early that may or may not even be the pathway that you want to be on.

And I always go back to, Can there, can there be a lender relationship and can you [00:38:00] pick up the phone and call someone, have a conversation about your situation? Hey, I’m looking in this area. This is about what we’re thinking, you know, budget wise. And then based on the products, based on all those factors coming together, what is the best product, you know, that that’s available in that moment for their situation and for the rates that are available.

So I’m going to keep beating that drum Tony, because I think it’s so important that. Someone might go in and we’ll talk here in just a minute about the pharmacist home loan product. And, and, you know, hopefully that’s a good fit. Um, but for some people that might go into that and say, Hey. That is a good option, but maybe there’s a better option, you know, that’s, that’s available as well.

Let’s talk about the pharma Go ahead.

Tony Umholtz: Oh, you’re exactly right. Cause you know, credit scores, the mark, the market, all of that applies. And we always want to evaluate what’s best at this current time. And one other thing I’ll mention too, is it’s really one of the safest times that I’ve ever seen as far as lending goes to, to buy because the regulatory environment [00:39:00] is very consumer friendly.

Um, there’s, there’s not a lot of, I mean, the, the rules are in place to, to prevent defaults. Right. And it is overwhelming to some degree, but also there’s no more prepayment penalties. There used to be prepayment penalties on lots of these loan products 20

Tim Ulbrich: to believe. Hard to

Tony Umholtz: Yeah. I mean, it was like everything had you to watch your prepay period and all this, that’s all gone.

I mean, so if rates start dipping, which. It could happen. Um, if we see inflation continue to fall, you’re, you could refinance in six months, eight months, whenever it made sense financially. Right. I mean, so it’s a very liquid time as long as you qualify. I think it’s, there’s a lot of, um, you know, from a financing side, it’s probably never been safer.

It’s, you just have to go in. Understanding that, you know, owning a property is not renting, right? You own it and you’ve got to take care of it. It’s your asset.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right. When we talk about the different products, let’s finish this section by talking about the Pharmacist home loan [00:40:00] product, as I suspect many are interested. We’ve mentioned it a few times now. Tell us about The ins and outs in terms of why that product is unique. Minimum credit scores, maximum loan amounts.

So our listeners can get a feel of whether or not that may be an option, uh, that they want to look into. Um,

Tony Umholtz: is 700, but there is some pricing adjustments if you’re under seven 40. So that’s why one of the things we do, we will look at some conventional products. If your credit score is 701, for example, right? Cause, cause that, that it’s more sensitive rate wise when you get under 740.

So that’s the minimum of 700. Um, as far as like the down payments, down payments are 3 percent down if you’re a first time buyer. Okay. So only 3 percent down, no PMI. If you’ve owned before, it’s 5 percent down. Okay. 5 percent down again, no PMI. The maximum loan amount typically matches [00:41:00] the conventional loan limits for that area.

So most areas right now are about 806, 550. There are some higher cost areas, you know, that are, that are higher than that. Certain counties, especially around Washington, DC, California, um, higher cost areas, New York, uh, but for the most part around that 806, 550 is the loan amount max. So lesser down payment, still pretty high loan amount.

You know, it’s pretty viable. Um, no prepayment penalties, like I mentioned, there aren’t really a lot of reserve requirements either, so you don’t have to have a lot of, you know, of, uh, cash in the bank, so to speak, uh, in reserves. And then the seller is able to pay some of the closing costs as well, uh, which is helpful sometimes, you know, especially as there’s more inventory guys, sellers will be more willing to negotiate.

That is one of the benefits of inventory. So the more inventory grows, the more opportunity there is for buyers, they get a little bit [00:42:00] more leverage than they used to have. So, um, the ability to have closing costs paid by the seller, something that could be negotiated in, and this program allows that as well.

Tim Ulbrich: and available in the lower 48. One of the reasons that we’ve, we’ve

Tony Umholtz: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: on, you know, you’ll find, you’ll find some regional products or state specific products, but, uh, any pharmacist listening that that’s a living in the lower 48, this is an option and we’ll link to this in the show notes. But if you go to yourfinancepharmacist.

com forward slash home dash loan. You’ll find all the information Tony just mentioned as well. Some other resources, uh, for, for those that are looking to purchase a home. Tony, I’m glad you mentioned the reserves as well, because when I think back to my journey of being a first time home buyer, or for that matter, even buying our second home, that’s a place where a lot of people can get stuck, right?

Which is, Hey, we’re, we’re working hard to come up with a down payment. Um, and now we got to have a certain amount that’s in reserves as well. And liquidity we know is just a difficult thing for a lot of [00:43:00] pharmacists that are in the first five or 10 years of their career. Um, just given that there’s other demands on, on income, they’re paying off student loan debt, they’re working towards other goals.

So that minimal reserve requirement can be an important aspect that I think we probably don’t talk enough about, uh, when, when you and I talk about the pharmacist home loan product. So thank you for the reminder on that one there. Let’s wrap up by talking about what really happens behind the scenes from hey, I’ve got my pre approval, I go out, I find the home, I’m working with the realtor, I make an offer, we’re under contract, walk us through what’s happening behind the scenes from I’m under contract, yeah.

Ultimately to closing, because I think this is, it feels probably for a lot of people, like a black box of all these things that are happening. You guys, I know are working really hard. People want to close on time. They want the process to move forward without bumps. Spoiler alert. It’s probably going to have some bumps along the way.

That’s just part of the process that, that happens, but [00:44:00] what happens behind the scene from, Hey, we’ve got an offer. We’re under contract all the way to we’re signing out of documents and we’re getting the keys.

Tony Umholtz: Yeah. Great questions, right? There’s a lot that goes on behind the scenes and everyone’s situations different. You know, it’s it’s really amazing how many different things can happen. But, um, so, so once you go to contract, once you’ve gotten your pre approval, you’ve gone to contract on a home. Yes, have, you know, part of the battle’s done, but there’s still a lot more left before you close.

And so most contracts have a timeline, right? Of let’s say it’s a 30 day contract. Okay. There’s typically a commitment letter deadline. So that’s when your financing contingency is, is up, so to speak. So what that means is like any earnest money you gave, let’s say you gave 5, 000 to secure the contract contract.

That money is basically non refundable if you get denied for [00:45:00] financing after the commitment letter deadline. So it’s very important you have a lender that can meet that deadline to minimize that risk. So that’s the first thing we look at, like, when is that deadline? When’s the appraisal contingency? And we work on those contingency basis.

I’m very fortunate here, and I’ve worked at two other lenders in my career. I’ve been at this bank now for over, a little over seven years now, I think. Yeah, over a little over seven and we have probably one of the best operational systems I’ve been a part of and And basically having my own team, it’s made it a lot easier for me.

And the reason I’m going to mention this is I’m going to speak to a couple of different systems of how lenders work, because I’ve worked at different systems and I’ve seen it firsthand. So the black box, so to speak, is once you go to contract, you send all your financials into the lender, everything starts, right?

Normally that loan originator will send the file to the [00:46:00] processor, the processor on my team. Um, I have two or three that work for my group will then submit the loan to the underwriter. Okay. And we have a fast track policy as well. So a lot of our products, we can have a loan commitment. If we have a full file within like 48 hours of receipt, it happens very, very fast.

And that’s one of our advantages is it is the speed that we can get that proof approval and meeting those criteria. And then from there, the appraisals ordered as well, generally takes a week or two to get that appraisal back, I find most areas a week or two, and that’ll meet that, you know, as long as that appraises, okay, then that meets the requirement.

Right. And the appraisals were reviewed to. So going back processor submits to underwriter, you get the approval. Okay. So the loan’s been approved, formally approved. There’s [00:47:00] generally conditions with that loan. So you’re going to have conditions that have to be collected from the borrower to get the final approval.

During that time, the appraisals ordered, right? Um, typically all your inspections are done with your real real estate agent, uh, ahead of time, you know, before you get this far during that time, but this is all being worked on the same time. So conditions, a lot of times it’s just how quick do they come back from the borrower generally takes a borrower.

A week or so, you know, to get it back to you, right? It’s not something that they’re going to just shoot right back to you. Some people do, but some people just take their time. Especially if our underwriting approval happened quickly, we’ll get those, those documents back. We’ll resubmit it for. you know, to get the final or formal, you know, to clear up any conditions right before closing.

And sometimes there’s more back and forth, depending on if those conditions didn’t quite fit the, the requirements. Okay. Appraisal comes back, appraisals [00:48:00] reviewed typically a week or so prior to closing. Our closer will work with the title agent or the closing attorney to get the correct paperwork for closing and the correct.

Uh, documents prepared, so they start doing it ahead of time to meet the new requirement. I say new, but several years ago, TRID became a requirement where a borrower had to acknowledge the closing statement at least three business days prior to closing. So that’s why you have to sign off on a primary home at least three days prior to closing.

And review all of review, all the, um, financials, and then you can close, you know, three business days later. So that, that is done at least a week ahead of time with the settlement agent. So meantime, most transactions go pretty smooth where, you know, there’s some complexity underwriting when you’re self employed, but [00:49:00] most clients have W2s pay steps comes in, we get it underwritten quickly and the appraisals ordered and. We work to the final loan approval closer, gets the paperwork out, then the client goes, signs on. The closing day loan is

Tim Ulbrich: Mm

Tony Umholtz: so that’s behind the scenes black box. Now there was a, there’s a, there can be some moving parts. So I worked at a larger bank prior to coming here, and there was some years I was their top producer in the country even.

And they were big. They’re very big. I’m not gonna name ’em, but they’re, they’re a bigger bank. And we used to have operations that I could somewhat control, meaning my processor, right, and my underwriter, I had a group that knew me, knew me, our system, my team, they basically centralized that,

Tim Ulbrich: Mm.

Tony Umholtz: where I lost complete control.

And it would, it would truly be, I wouldn’t know what’s going on, right? So I couldn’t update my clients. And

Tim Ulbrich: All the while they’re asking questions and yeah.

Tony Umholtz: And unfortunately, a lot of [00:50:00] banks work that way, even to this day, especially the larger ones, because it can be, they’re not as nimble to manage smaller teams like we are. So that is one thing you see out there is there’s still some of that out there where it’s call center driven.

It’s centralized. It’s hard to move quickly. It’s hard to communicate. And that’s where some of these problems can arise. And that’s why I do think it’s important to have that communication because things happen, there is things that happen, like even in the appraisal process, we had an appraiser couldn’t find comparables, they’re coming back to our team.

Those are the things that happen. They just are out of our, all of our control. There’s things with job movement. Um, people take new jobs and, you know, I’m dealing with one right now where The, the employment agreement got kicked back a few months, which that could, they still want to close early. And it’s, you know, there’s always complexity, right?

You just want to try to get answers quickly and communicate [00:51:00] quickly, but there’s a lot that goes on behind the scenes. There’s, I mean, I don’t know how much more depth you want, but I mean, there’s flood certifications that are run, right? During the process, we track, we track any inquiries on your credit to make sure you’re not borrowing other

Tim Ulbrich: Not, not a good time to be,

Tony Umholtz: Yeah. Lenders do that. We have to do that. So we track people to make sure that’s why I say don’t buy stuff while you’re going through the process, but you’re being tracked during process, making sure your credit’s not being utilized. Um, there, there’s a lot of things. There’s a survey that’s ordered.

Typically the title company will do that. But you’re getting a survey on the home, you have to get homeowner’s insurance. Um, but the lender is working through a lot of little details. We’re doing, we do fraud guard. There’s different things we do to, to ensure that there’s no fraud with any of the parties involved, uh, seller, title company, all of that.

A lot of things are screened now that they weren’t in the past, you know? So. There’s a lot that goes on, um, but [00:52:00] if you have a system, it can be done quickly. You know, if you have it, if you get the materials, I will say one more thing for the audience. The better you are at responding to the lender with the items they need quicker, the quicker the process and smoother it’ll go for you.

So whoever lender, no matter what lender you use. You choose to use if you respond quickly and you’re proactive and you get them what they need when they request it The process will go much much better for you

Tim Ulbrich: Well, I’m going to give a shout out to our audience there because I would contend that most pharmacists, maybe not all, but most pharmacists are pretty responsive and communicative in the process. And probably, not probably, I know why that for many people having that relationship would be so important for all the reasons that you mentioned.

Right. And there’s really two things that I heard there, one, you know, a team that is not Decentralized, you know, in terms of, or I guess centralized in the way that you described it, where you don’t [00:53:00] have access to them and, and kind of that black, black box becomes what we were talking about. Um, so having that access to a team where you can get that information quickly back to the client.

And then again, just that personal relationship, I think matters a lot. Call me old school, but it’s what I say on the business side all the time. We work in a local credit union here where. Whether it’s related to, you know, some of our checking accounts or a line of credit or whatever is the question, I know I can call Meredith if I have a question and maybe Meredith won’t always be the direct person that answers my question, but she can help me get in contact with whoever is and, you know, when someone knows that, hey, I can talk with Tony or I can talk with Cindy or I can talk with Aaron, like, and there’s a real person who understands my story.

Scenario all the more important when we’re talking about a highly emotional, large purchase with lots of moving pieces and parts in a very short period of time. Right. That’s a recipe for stress and I, and I think having the right people in your corner and having access to them and having good communication back [00:54:00] and forth can make this go as, as smooth as it, as it hopefully will, knowing that there might be some bumps along the way as well.

Tony Umholtz: Yeah Absolutely. I think you know, one of the things about this industry is There’s so many little details, right? Even like, how can I bump my credit score up 20 points? You know, having that ability to talk through that it’s, it’s complex. It’s not something, you know, I remember thinking one time, well, maybe AI will, we’ll take, take away our, a lot of our business.

Well, it’s funny, the AI things I sit in on, listen to, it’s all just making our business more efficient. There’s just too much complexities. Everyone’s so different. You can’t standardize it. Everyone’s got a different situation. So, um, the personal approach, I think is always going to be needed. There’s a lot of complexity in lending, a lot of things that you can’t just put in a box, but, um, there’s a system behind it.

And I do think from what, I think there’s so many more protections now. [00:55:00] For the, for the end user and the client than there ever has been. It’s really a, even though it is an intimidating process, it’s as safe as it’s ever been.

Tim Ulbrich: Tony, this is great stuff. And we covered a lot from pre approval to closing. And we have a great resource that I’ve referenced once. I’ll reference it again. We’ll link to in our show notes called five easy, five easy steps to get a home loan. Even if you don’t have 20 percent down, you can find that by going to yourfinancialpharmacist.

com forward slash home dash loan. It’s a great resource for homebuyers. In there, you’ll find some more information about the pharmacist home loan offering, recapping much of what Tony described on the show as well. And again, we’ll link to that in the show notes. So Tony, as always, really appreciate your perspective.

And thanks for taking time to come on the show.

Tony Umholtz: Thanks, Tim. Always good. Good hanging out with you, man. Thank you.

Tim Ulbrich: Appreciate it. Take care.

[END]

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YFP 398: Is Your Income Your Rate Limiting Step?

Posted on by YFP Media

In this episode, Tim Ulbrich, YFP CEO looks at three powerful areas for growing your income: maximizing your compensation, real estate investing, and building side hustles or businesses.

Episode Summary

While cutting expenses is a key part of managing your finances, there’s a limit to how much you can cut. The good news? Your income has no ceiling.

In this episode, Tim Ulbrich, YFP CEO looks at three powerful areas for growing your income: maximizing your compensation, real estate investing, and building side hustles or businesses. Tim shares some personal experiences and examples from other pharmacists who have successfully diversified their income streams and created financial opportunities that go beyond the traditional 9-to-5 grind.

Key Points from the Episode

[00:00] Introduction to Financial Freedom
[00:50] The Importance of Growing Your Income
[05:01] Maximizing Your Compensation
[09:12] Real Estate Investing
[13:50] Side Hustles and Business Income
[26:06] Leveraging Extra Income for Wealth Building
[28:20] Reflection and Conclusion

Episode Highlights

“ Opportunities exist all around us to grow our income. I didn’t say that it was easy and I didn’t say it wouldn’t come without failures along the way. I said that there were opportunities all around us. And that it has no limits.” – Tim Ulbrich [1:43]

“ Is my value being compensated appropriately? If so, great. If not, are you advocating for yourself? And if you’re not advocating for yourself, why not?” – Tim Ulbrich [5:25]

“ Not all side hustles and not all businesses are a good return on time investment, and especially in the case of a business, yes, there is more upside than a traditional W 2. But there’s also risk and we have to assess what that risk is.” – Tim Ulbrich [14:46]

“ Real wealth building potential happens when you take income from these streams and have that money growing and working for you.” – Tim Ulbrich [27:12]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: [00:00:00] Hey, everybody, Tim Ulbrich here. And welcome to this week’s episode of the YFP podcast, where we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. Today, I’m diving deep into a fun topic for anyone looking to build wealth. And that is the role of growing your income.

While cutting expenses is a key part of managing your finances. There’s a limit to how much you can cut the good news. Income has no ceiling. In this episode, we’re going to look at three powerful areas for growing your income, maximizing your compensation, real estate, investing, and building a side hustle or business.

I’ll share some personal experiences and examples from other pharmacists who have successfully diversified their income streams and created financial opportunities that go beyond the traditional nine to five. So let’s dive in to this week’s episode.

Hey guys, welcome to this week’s episode. I’m excited to jump in. As we talk about how your income just might be [00:01:00] the rate limiting step of your financial plan. When we talk about achieving our longterm financial goals, whether that’s building wealth, having more funds to invest in experiences. Whether that’s giving all of the above, it comes down to having cashflow to achieve those goals and cutting expenses.

We’ve talked about that many times on this show before it plays an important role, make no mistake, but at some point in time. You can only cut so much. And so we want to spend some time looking at the other side of the coin, which is growing your income and what potential that might provide when it comes to the financial plan.

So what if we shifted our focus more to the income side of the equation? Because opportunities exist all around us to grow our income. I didn’t say that it was easy and I didn’t say it wouldn’t come without failures along the way. I said that there were opportunities all around us. And that it has no limits.

And this is a big mindset shift [00:02:00] for many of us. That grew up in a profession where there was a ceiling, at least one that we put in our own minds on how much we would earn with the degree that we had. Many of us went through school and we came out with this story. I’m set or unsaid that, Hey, when you graduate, you’re going to make a good six figure income.

And objectively speaking, pharmacists do make a good six figure income. But because of that mindset, we often get uncomfortable. If we think about income growing beyond that number. The idea that it could be more, maybe double or triple that. It’s scary because it butts up against what we have known and what we have believed, right?

It butts up against our experiences. Now, my experience tells me. In my own situation and working with many other pharmacists that if we have a solid financial base and foundation to work from, the more opportunities that we actually start to see, [00:03:00] perhaps they’ve been there all along, but the more aware we are, because we’re now in a position and a mindset that we can entertain the idea of taking calculated risks.

Because when we have that strong foundation, we shift our mindset from a scarcity mindset to an abundance mindset. And we begin to see the opportunities for how we can not only grow our income, but how we can leverage that income growth to other parts of the financial plan. So the question is what opportunities exist?

To earn more income. Tell me more, Tim, what opportunities exist to earn more income. And I’ll speak from experience of those that I have, uh, have run across my own financial plan and those that I’ve come across in interviewing other pharmacists on this show, certainly it’s not meant to be an all inclusive list.

And if you have other ideas, whether you’re employing them in your own financial plan, or, you know, of others. That are leveraging strategies to grow their income and expand their income to accelerate their financial plan. [00:04:00] Send us an email at info at your financial pharmacist. com. We’d love to hear about it and be able to address those on an upcoming episode.

Now, before we jump in, I am not going to spend time on the one income growing idea that perhaps is the most obvious, right? Which is picking up. One of the blessings that we have in our profession is that we can, in many cases, pick up extra shifts, either at our employer or at another employer, at a really good hourly wage, that those additional dollars could be put to work in the financial plan.

So, if that’s available to you, and you’re interested in doing that work, that just might be the path of lease resistance. So I’m not going to focus on that, but I am going to focus on three other buckets of which I can, I think you can grow your income, maximizing your compensation, real estate, investing, and generating income through a side hustle or a business.

And again, I’ll feature several examples of [00:05:00] pharmacists all along the way. So let’s start with number one, which is your compensation. Right. Let’s address what you already have available to you to see if we can maximize that further. See if we can squeeze out more from our compensation while we also explore other strategies.

So if you are working a W 2 job, I want you to ask yourself this question. Is my value being compensated appropriately? Is my value being compensated appropriately? If so, great. If not Are you advocating for yourself? And if you’re not advocating for yourself, why not? Is there a potential for a raise within your organization and negotiating that raise or perhaps a, a new position externally that could give a boost to your income?

And now we all know from experience that when it comes to satisfaction in the workplace, it’s not just about the income. So I don’t want you to lose sight of those other factors, but if your value is not compensated appropriately, is there an [00:06:00] opportunity internally or externally? That we could pursue to grow that top number.

Now, my experience tells me that making a transition from one employer to another is a good opportunity. It’s a good time to right size compensation and negotiate. If you have the leverage to do so now, of course, if there’s an opportunity within an organization, and that is one that you already like working for that organization, we want to pursue that first, but if not, perhaps a transition.

Can afford us an opportunity to grow our income. Let me give you an example. In 2018, I made the transition from an academic role at Northeast Ohio medical university to one at Ohio state. In addition to having my partner, Tim Baker, certified financial planner in my corner, who’s an expert in negotiation, and he was able to coach me through that process.

In addition to that resource, there was one thing in particular. That allowed me to jump [00:07:00] my compensation by more than 30, 000 per year during the transition. And that one key ingredient that I believe is a really important ingredient when it comes to negotiation is that I had leverage. Now that’s not a bad word.

That’s not a greedy word. It’s a fact when you look at the negotiation process, do you have leverage or do you not have leverage? It’s an important self assessment. And the reason I had leverage is that I didn’t have an urgency. To make that move. And I applied for the position with a mindset that, Hey, if it works out great, if it doesn’t, that’s okay too.

And that really led me to approach the interview with an abundance mindset. I was able to cast a bold vision for the position that I was interviewing for. And I was able to do that, knowing that that vision was either going to be a home run, or it was going to be a strikeout. And because I love the work that I was doing at Northeast Ohio Medical University.

I like my colleagues. I was [00:08:00] afforded great opportunities there. I was curious about this new position, but it wasn’t a must have. And that leverage really helped me throughout the negotiation process. So back to the question, whether it’s an internal negotiation or an external negotiation, is your value being compensated appropriately?

Yes. Ideally your income is outpatient inflation, but asking for a raise for inflation sake, isn’t going to get you very far in the longterm. Rather, we need to focus on value, value that you bring to the employer and ensuring that that value is fairly compensated. And the key word here in the negotiation is fair.

If we’re talking about value and fair compensation, we’re now in an environment that allow us for hopefully a successful. Negotiation. If you’re curious to learn more about negotiation strategies, Tim Baker, and I talked about this several times in the podcast, but most recently on episode three 84, where we talked about beyond [00:09:00] salary negotiation, looking at your value in the workplace, so make sure to check out.

That episode that’s area number one, as we look at how we can potentially grow our income. And there we’re talking about compensation. Area number two is real estate investing, real estate investing. Now, outside of investing in the purchase of our office building for your financial pharmacist and doing some more passive hard money lending.

I’ll talk about that more here in a moment. I don’t necessarily consider myself to be a big real estate investor. It’s an area that I value as a diversified part of the financial plan. It’s one that I want to continue to grow as a part of our own financial plan, but I don’t consider myself a big real estate investor or pro in this area, but we have some great resources available through our community.

And those have been led by David Bright and Nate Hedrick, who are the co hosts of the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast. They put out some great content sharing, not only their own investing journeys, but also [00:10:00] featuring other pharmacists that are doing real estate investing in all different types of way across the country.

So make sure to check out that resource. That said. While I don’t consider myself to be a big real estate investor, I do personally know many pharmacists in our community that have been successful in this space and they’ve done it in a lot of different ways. And one of the cool things about real estate is that it comes in many different forms and flavors that depending on your risk tolerance, depending, uh, depending on what level of involvement, how hands on you do or don’t want to be, some opportunities may be more interesting than others.

And many of you are likely already real estate investors and perhaps aren’t even aware of it. I’m talking about investing in REITs, what are known as real estate investment trust, which just might already be in your asset allocation inside of your 401k or inside of your 403b as one example. And what is a REIT?

Well, instead of owning and holding a property, a REIT or a real estate investment trust [00:11:00] is an investment in a company that pools money together to own or finance a real estate portfolio. So it’s one way that you can diversify your portfolio and get invested in real estate without owning the physical property and managing that yourself.

So what are the different types of real estate investing that are out there? Probably what comes to mind for many people, what I consider kind of the traditional real estate investing approach is what I call a buy and hold. So you buy a property, perhaps it’s, it’s undervalued. Maybe you do a little bit of fix up for the property.

Hopefully you have a long term tenant. If not, you’re dealing with vacancy and turnover and you’re, you’re charging a monthly rent that that’s. Ideally, positive cash flow and you have that for a long period of time and you can replicate that process potentially over and over again. So that, that’s a more traditional, a more active approach, depending on if you have a property manager, if you’re doing it yourself, that would be a buy and hold.

But there’s lots of other ways. There’s short and midterm rental. So think Airbnb. Right. There’s fix [00:12:00] and flips think, uh, HGTV fixer upper. So these are properties where again, uh, a property that often might be undervalued need significant repair work. You buy it at that lower rate, you fix it up. And ideally you set, you sell it for a profit.

There’s many other considerations to be thinking about there, but that that’s essentially the idea. There’s things that are more passive, like syndications and hard money lending, where you’re serving essentially as being the bank for other people that are doing. Real estate investing. There’s commercial real estate investing.

There’s house hacking where you’re living in a property while renting out a portion of the property to one or more individuals. Heck you can even buy a motel Schitt’s Creek style and turn that into an investment property, similar to what Stewart and Elizabeth only did as they shared on episode. 46 of the YFP real estate investing podcast.

We’ll link to that episode in the show notes. So there’s lots of different flavors of real estate investing, and it’s certainly not for everyone, but it can [00:13:00] provide some very tangible benefits. Including rental income or cashflow appreciation of that property over time where that equity could be leveraged There’s tax benefits and certainly for those that are thinking potentially something like an early retirement We can liquidate some of these properties as one avenue of creating some of that cash flow before we pull on other Investment accounts that might be tied up to that 59 and a half age that we think about with things like a 401k or an IRA.

Lots to think about there. Make sure you check out a real estate investment investment podcast shows. If you’re not already familiar with those, and I think you’ll find those inspiring, informational, and just give you ideas of how real estate investing may or may not fit in with your financial plan. So that’s number two, is we look at three different categories of how you can potentially grow your income.

The third one that I want to talk about. Is side hustle or business income. Now, these are very different, right? If someone owns a business and they operate a [00:14:00] business and that’s, that’s their full time thing versus side hustle. When we think about traditionally, you’re working a full time or part time job in addition to doing the side hustle.

But because many side hustles can become a business, I’m going to group these two things. Uh, together now, I think it’s important to know, right? There’s, there’s risk in lots of the different things that we’re talking about more so with the business and the side hustle, but because side hustles and entrepreneurship have become all the rage over the last decade or so, and, and I’m, I’m all in for a good side hustle or a business, but not all side hustles and not all businesses are a good return on time investment, and especially in the case of a business, yes, there is more upside than a traditional W 2.

But there’s also risk and we have to assess what that risk is. And when it comes to growing your income through a side hustle or business, this could be pharmacy related, or as you’ll see with a couple of examples, as I get towards the end, it might be not pharmacy related, especially if you have a creative outlet or hobby or [00:15:00] skill that is independent of your role or skills as a pharmacist.

So let’s look at a few examples of pharmacists. That have experience building a side hustle or a business. And I’m going to group these into different categories just to get the ideas flowing as you think about your own financial plan, the number one category and no particular order is medical writing.

I see a lot of pharmacists that are interested in doing medical writing. Yes. You can be a contractor. To do medical writing so this could be a side hustle or you could build and own your own medical writing business So I think about individuals like britney hoffman eubanks who we had on episode 126 that has her own medical writing business banner medical I think about megan freeland who was on episode 259 where we talked about building her medical writing business while she was also working Full time job.

I think about Austin Ulrich who was on the podcast who talked about Going on his own as an as an entrepreneur to build a a medical writing business and how he’s able to do that

I think [00:16:00] about Warda Nawaz who talked about in episode 280, how she was able to pivot to a writing career. Lots of cool examples of pharmacists that are dabbling in this from a side hustle as a contractor to building their own medical writing business. Another bucket I would consider here is clinical consulting, right?

In days gone by, this would be performing things like medication therapy management services for a local pharmacy or independent pharmacy in modern day. This would be doing things like virtual medication therapy management or comprehensive medication reviews through companies like Aspen RX Health. So there are opportunities to pick up extra hours, earn some additional income, applying skills that maybe you’re using in your everyday job, or perhaps is tapping into a different part that you’re not using.

Every day in your work, there’s opportunities in speaking lots of pharmacists. I know that are getting paid for speaking Now this can be a grind when you think about the travel if it’s in person speaking Um, sometimes the the money may not be as [00:17:00] as good as it you want Depending on what type of speaking you’re doing, what your audience is.

I know several pharmacists that have made additional income predominantly as a side hustle, this certainly could build into a career. One I think about in particular would be Corey Jenks. We’ve had on the podcast most recently on episode three 62, uh, talking about fatherhood, family, and fire. If you’re not familiar with Corey, he’s written a couple of books and.

On that episode, we got to talk about his book on fatherhood. He’s a comedian and he just has a great speaking package and keynote that brings his healthcare experience, formerly working with the VA now working for a different employer, but. Pairing that health care experience with his passion and love for comedy and bringing that in a way that helps Clinicians pharmacists and other health care professionals be more compassionate And light hearted and how they approach those interactions with patients and he gets paid For the speaking that he does and his book led to his speaking his speaking helped further his book sales So [00:18:00] that’s one example that I would throw out there The next bucket that I would bring forward is what I’m calling content creation or online courses or communities where people are monetizing their clinical expertise.

So they built a brand, they have an area of clinical specialty and expertise, and they’ve been able to monetize that in different ways. Several individuals here. That are worth highlighting one, Jamie Wilkie. We had her on, on a couple episodes of the podcast, most recently on three 59. Again, we’ll link to all these in the show notes.

She first built a pharmacogenetics, uh, course in community. She worked for a while in retail pharmacy, left that work, built her own, uh, course and community has now built a brand under the misfit farm D where she’s helping to. coach pharmacists that are looking at career transitions and how they can take the skills that they have and be able to apply those skills to perhaps a different work scenario and employment setting than the one that they’re in now.

So if you’re not already following her on LinkedIn, I would, I would encourage you to [00:19:00] check her out. She’s got great content. I think about individuals like Blair Teelmeyer. Who built the pharmapreneur Academy. And she took a difficult situation of finding herself unemployed to starting her own business and became really a thought leader in our profession, not only through that Academy, but through her personal brand, that is a lead to additional consulting opportunities for her as well.

She wrote a book as well, early in her journey. Uh, so, so lots of pieces to consider here. I think about Tim Gauthier, who’s an ID clinical specialist that we had on the podcast a couple of years ago, who has built. His has taken his clinical expertise to build and monetize, uh, an online community and paid courses.

He has a social following that he built early on in Twitter and now X all focused around ID stewardship. So it’s a work that he’s doing day in and day out, and he’s able to then package that and build a brand around being the leading expert in ID stewardship for pharmacists. I think about individuals like Jimmy Pruitt, [00:20:00] who’s worked full time in an ED pharmacy and has built, started with a podcast.

He’s got an online community and resource. He’s got now an in person, uh, live event for emergency pharmacists and other healthcare professionals. Uh, built that while working full time as an emergency clinical specialist. Again, taking the work that’s being done every day and using it to monetize that clinical expertise and be able to reach a broader group.

I also think about individuals like Kelly Carlstrom, the founder of Kelly C Farm D, who’s a PGY 2 trained oncology he monk specialist that said, Hey, why isn’t this information more readily available outside of large academic medical centers and PGY 2 trained programs? And clinical specialists. And so she built an online community and resources where pharmacists all over the country could have access to that type of information to grow their clinical skills so they could better serve their practice sites and their patients.

Lots of cool examples of pharmacists that are creating courses, communities, [00:21:00] content, finding monetize their clinical expertise. Another bucket would be being an adjunct professor or teacher. I know several pharmacists that work full time but then they adjunct teach at a, could be a college of pharmacy, could be a college of medicine, uh, could be with a nursing program, could be with another healthcare profession that has a pharmacology course, could be in person, could be virtual, online courses, lots of different ways to get involved and to be able to again tap into a different area of your skills.

And earn some additional income. Another area would be an expert witness in episode 112 of the podcast A phd trained pharmacist brent roland shared his story about becoming a pharmacy expert witness for law firms Primarily focusing on marketing cases in addition to standard of care cases And he was able to get this experience while he was in school with his professor Asking for help on a big case.

That’s where he got started and then he continued to receive Casework from there. Many criminal [00:22:00] and civil cases involve medications, involve toxicology, involve quality of care and negligence. All areas where pharmacists are positioned well to provide their expert, uh, opinion and, uh, potentially some expert witness and testimony.

Another area would be consulting. Lots of pharmacists that are doing consulting. I think about individuals like Jill Pallier, who has a background in patient safety, uh, who’s built a specialty practice and has really paired those skills to be able to build a consulting business. I think about individuals like Brooke Griffin, who we had on episode 379 of the podcast, where she talked about her journey, building the business, the bold idea group.

Where she’s a full time academician at Midwestern and was able to build this coaching business while she was and continues to work full time in academia. I think of another category, which would be software or app based businesses. So Derek Borkowski who built pearls, if you’re not already familiar with pearls, I hope you’ll check it out.

[00:23:00] Great drug information resource. When I was in pharmacy school, we had a very antiquated version of micrometics and Lexicom. This is a much more user friendly modern version of those tools. I often joke with Derek, I wish I had this tool and resource available to me when I was in pharmacy school and residency.

And we had Derek on episode 243 where he talked about his non traditional career path, going from a community pharmacy to becoming a software engineer, and then ultimately building his business at Pearls. Other software app based business, I think about PharmaSol and Natalie Parker, graduate of Ohio State, who built PharmaSol with her co founder from MIT.

And PharmaSol is a company that streamlines pharmacy communications with advanced AI. And helps to automate calls and messages with patients, providers, and payers. Really cool example of someone that took their interest with AI and technology and paired it with their background in pharmacy. Another category I think about would be developing a physical product based business.

Now this can come with high risk and [00:24:00] high reward, right? There often is some, some higher, uh, equipment and costs to get started when you talk about a product based business, but two in particular stand out for me, one that’s pharmacy related, one non pharmacy related. One would be Alison Brennan, who we had on episode 180 of the podcast, where we talked about her journey, where she used her pharmacy skills to start her skincare company called Emma Gene Co.

And she started the skincare company out of her house while she was working full time and then eventually part time as a hospital administrator. Eventually she left that work to work full time on the skincare business. Now has her own team, has a warehouse, business is doing really well. Really cool example of a product based business.

The other one I think about here would be Prickly. Prickly is a cactus, uh, base, uh, beverage company. And a shout out to Quan Yang and his team and his co founder Mo who have built Prickly. We had Quan on episode 289, talking about how they built that. What was the vision behind it? Why did they do it? Uh, [00:25:00] really cool example of a pharmacist that appeared on Shark Tank and was able to leverage their entrepreneurial interest to build a product, uh, in what is a very competitive market, right?

The beverage industry. And last, but certainly not least, I think about some of the non pharmacy Uh entrepreneurs that are out there or the side hustlers that are out there as well Individuals like landon connor who’s a pharmacist who has a passion for photography and has built a successful photography business I think about pharmacist stephanie roberts who built an apothecary art business.

I think about pharmacist rosie chun who built a calligraphy Artist business successful business out in California that does a lot of events and high end calligraphy work for celebrities and Corporations again several different ways. There is no one right way, right? The purpose of me sharing these was to give you some examples and hopefully spark some creativity ideas of pharmacists That yes many of who have stayed in their pharmacy careers But are also building some really [00:26:00] cool things on the side or eventually some of those Were were evolved into a business

now here’s the kicker when it comes to earning additional income, whatever avenue that might be, whether it’s growing our compensation, perhaps generating income through real estate investing, whether passive or active or generating income through a side hustle or business that extra income while it’s nice, and we can apply it towards certain goal, that extra income itself.

Is not where the real wealth building potential happens, right? Let me give you an example. If, if you were to take an extra 10, 000 that you earn and you apply it towards a, let’s just say a student loan debt payment, that’s at 6%, and there’s certainly a time and place for that. So don’t, don’t mishear me on this, but in that instance.

The value of that extra 10, 000 is limited, although valuable, limited to paying down that debt by 10, 000 and any of the interest that we would save that would have otherwise accumulated, but over time is we’re able to build a [00:27:00] strong financial foundation. If we can turn that extra income into assets that will produce further income and hopefully do so at a rate that compounds over time, that’s where we really start to see the money.

Working for us. Real wealth building potential happens when you take income from these streams and have that money growing and working for you. So what does that look like? Again, lots of ways that you can do this, but for me, it has included turning extra income from different sources into more traditional compounding assets, right?

Like equities inside of a 401k or four or three B IRA, HRA, HSA, taking that income and investing it as a hard money lender for others that are doing real estate investing, taking that extra income and purchasing a cash flowing. Appreciating property, taking that income and building equity and another business.

taking that income and investing in other businesses and taking [00:28:00] that income and growing an existing business, therefore increasing the value or the equity of that business over time. Those examples I think are really where you start to see the flywheel of how that income and taking off the ceiling of your income, how that income can be leveraged.

Towards that longer term plan to building wealth. So as we wrap up, let me leave you with a few questions of reflection. As you think about how to apply this in your own financial plan. Number one, do you believe that the income that you have and your potential of income for the most part is fixed? If so, why is that the case?

Where does that mindset come from? I think it’s really important to explore that. Second question. If you work for a traditional W 2 job, are you being compensated fairly for the value that you’re bringing? If not, what has been holding you back from asking and negotiating additional compensation? And number three, what opportunities [00:29:00] are there for building wealth?

Investing in experiences and giving beyond those that I mentioned throughout this episode. And if you have an idea, as I mentioned at the beginning of something you’re doing or something, you know, someone else is doing, send us an email at info. At your financial pharmacist. com. Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of the podcast.

If you like what you heard, do us a favor, leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts, which will help other pharmacists find the show. And finally, an important reminder that the content in the podcast is provided for informational purposes only, and is not intended to provide and should not be relying on for investment or any other advice for more information on this.

You can visit your financial pharmacist. com forward slash disclaimer. Thanks so much for listening. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP Real Estate Investing 132: Rent vs Buy: Does Buy Still Make Sense?

Posted on by YFP Media

Tim Ulbrich, YFP CEO talks with Nate Hedrick, PharmD and David Bright, PharmD as they break down the rent vs. buy dilemma in today’s market, tackling equity, flexibility, financial strategy, and key market insights.

Episode Summary

Tim Ulbrich talks with real estate investors Nate Hedrick, PharmD and David Bright, PharmD as they dive into the rent vs. buy decision in today’s housing market, offering practical insights and real-life experiences. They explore the financial benefits of both options, the role of equity, and the flexibility renting provides. Their discussion highlights the importance of understanding local market dynamics, strategic use of home equity, and aligning decisions with personal and financial goals

Key Points from the Episode

[00:00] Introduction to Rent vs. Buy Discussion
[05:00] Market Perspectives: Optimism vs. Pessimism
[09:58] Analyzing the Rent vs. Buy Decision
[14:48] Benefits of Renting: Flexibility and Cost
[20:09] Understanding Equity in Homeownership
[25:02] Leveraging Equity: HELOC and Financial Strategies
[24:30] The Stability of Homeownership
[27:16] Navigating the First-Time Homebuyer Dilemma
[30:19] Starter Homes vs. Forever Homes
[32:13] Understanding Micro Market Dynamics
[34:44] Defining Your Vision for Homeownership

Episode Highlights

“ If you were buying in 2020, 2021, you looked like a genius if you sold the house a year later because the property values were just skyrocketing so quickly. That is not going to be the case anymore.” -Nate Hedrick [8:50]

“ We have to remember that not any decision should be one that we look at in a silo. So we can run the numbers on a rent versus buy and maybe we have a clear answer. But then when we zoom out, things might change.” -Tim Ulbrich [11:34]

“ There’s a big chunk of cash right there that we’re then locking up right into that home. And that could be very valuable, but also there’s an opportunity cost that we have to consider where those dollars could be used elsewhere in the plan.” -Tim Ulbrich [18:03]

“ You can’t paint an index fund to make it worth more, but you could paint your house to make it worth more, right?” -David Bright [26:06]

“ Renting is not always bad. And if we’ve been told that story, like. I think we need to unwind that a bit.” -Tim Ulbrich [35:34]

“ Take your time to assess what you want and then assess it for yourself. Like, don’t listen to what your best friend is saying, or the guy at work who is frustrated with his rental properties. Figure out what you want to do. Figure out what works for your local market, investor or buyer and then make a decision based on that information.” -Nate Hedrick [37:43]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

YFP Real Estate Investing 131: Revisiting Our 2024 Projections and Looking Ahead to 2025
NY Post Article “Here’s how much more a single-family home costs to buy than rent”
Real Estate RPh Concierge Service
NYT Rent vs Buy Calculator
YFP YouTube Channel
Subscribe to the YFP Newsletter
YFP Disclaimer
YFP Real Estate Investing Facebook Group
Nate Hedrick on Instagram
David Bright on Instagram
YFP Real Estate Investing Website
David Bright on LinkedIn
Nate Hedrick on LinkedIn
Tim Ulbrich on LinkedIn
YFP on Instagram
YFP Facebook Group

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: David and Nate, welcome to the show. Hey, always good to be here. Thank you. I should have said welcome to your show, uh, as, as I’m having a chance to, uh, take the mic and, and pick your guys brain on an important topic, rent versus buy. And really excited to talk about this since it’s a topic we’ve talked about at length before in various shows, but today’s market adds a, as a whole new wrinkle to how we think about the rent versus buy decision.

Your last episode, 131, we’ll link to that in the show notes, revisiting your 2024 projections, looking ahead to 2025. Now that we’re two weeks into the new year, anything you guys feel the need to correct on your projections, or you still feel good on what you’re thinking for 2025?

David Bright: I guess I’ll throw out there, I’m, [00:01:00] I’m cautiously optimistic, uh, and I would say, I, I can’t be a pharmacist to not be cautious, right?

So that’s just how we roll. So I’m cautiously optimistic that there’s opportunity out there. But I think one of the things we, we talked about in the last podcast is just really knowing your numbers, really being intentional, just double checking your math. And that’s something that pharmacists are good at.

So if you can be disciplined in doing that work, I think there’s still good opportunity here in 2025.

Nate Hedrick: Well, I’ll take the flip side. I’m cautiously pessimistic at the moment. I just ran numbers on like 20 deals just this past week and none of them worked. And I just, I’m in a funk right now. So I’m going to, I’m going to play the bad guy card.

I I’m sure it’ll, it’ll figure itself out. But I was like, I was bummed last week. I was looking at just dough van. It was like, I got to find something here and nothing worked. But that’s, that’s just how it goes sometimes.

Tim Ulbrich: We caught Nate on the back end of running some numbers that didn’t work out. Didn’t work out,

Nate Hedrick: but that’s all right.

You got to run like a hundred deals before you have like two or three you can offer on it. Just how it goes. So I had [00:02:00] a bad week. That’s okay.

Tim Ulbrich: If we get more specific, I’m curious to hear from both of you guys as investors that have experience in several different types of real estate, buy and hold, fix and flip, syndications.

You know, how are you looking ahead to 2025? I know, David, you said cautiously optimistic, Nate, cautiously pessimistic, but is there, is there pockets or things that you’re excited about or things that you’re like, I’m kind of staying away from, from this in 25, David, let’s start, start with you.

David Bright: Yeah. I, I think that just from, from talking previously on the show, I, I really enjoy the fix and flip and the single family rental.

Like I feel. Most experienced and most comfortable in those two spaces. And so I think that the single family rental still has opportunity. I think there’s some real difficulty with that traditional 1 percent rule where. You, uh, you can generally think of a house as a viable rental if you can make 1 percent of the purchase price of that house as a, as a monthly rent [00:03:00] figure.

And you know, people have debated the 1 percent rule for forever, and some say it should be higher or lower than that. But at least that, that gets you in the ballpark of if it’s time to do. What Nate did in doing the more complex analysis from there to see if it really, really works, but that kind of just quick litmus test might, might be helpful.

And so I was really excited that we found one this morning and then I got beat on the offer. So we, uh, we didn’t get it, but, um, yeah, I think, I think that those opportunities are going to be out there. I think that they’re just, they’re going to be more difficult to find, but I still think that there’s a need, particularly in an overarching housing shortage.

For good, respectable, safe, single family rentals.

Nate Hedrick: I think you’re right, David. I think the trick is going to be finding those like diamonds in the rough. You kind of have to find something that needs some work. Um, like I said, I was just running numbers and everything that was like even vaguely move in ready, just like the prices were just through the roof and with interest rates where they are.

Uh, we just had a tax increase here in Cuyahoga County. [00:04:00] So they did the, um, every six year, like reassessment. So like property taxes are up for market value. And so I think all those things are kind of running into each other at the same time, and it’s just making the numbers really tight. And so you have to have something where you’re going to be able to put dollars into it, inject value, and then you can get it out on the back end.

Tim Ulbrich: Funny, you mentioned property taxes, Nate here, fresh on my desk. I got our, uh, notice, uh, yesterday and I was reflecting on the increase. And related to our discussion today, right, you know, the, the fixed 30 year mortgage at 3%. Great. I’ll take that all day. Uh, the escalation in property taxes that we’re seeing here, both with our primary home and our commercial property up in New Albany is, is wild.

Um, and you know, I, I think it’s just one of those factors that we think about when we discuss, you know, should I buy or should I rent is. You know, do, do we have some of that margin, right? That we’re going to have these increases in utilities, in property taxes, in upkeep and [00:05:00] maintenance and so forth. And, and I bring that up as a challenge to our community, where I think for many pharmacists, they might, you know, see somewhat of a flattening of that income and those expenses can be felt more over time.

And so we need to constantly be asking ourselves is, Hey, is our income keeping pace with these are hopefully beating, but at least keeping pace with some of these expenses that are going up. Over time. So let’s transition into our discussion for today. Buy versus rent. Again, an age old question with a new wrinkle and that new wrinkle being today’s housing market, the economic environment that we’re in, you know, I often hear David and Nate from pharmacists, especially if I speak to a group of pharmacists that are maybe just coming out of school, you know, where there’s that blanket advice from mom and dad, right?

Which is like always buy rent, destroying money down the drain. You got to build equity. And David, you sent over an article from the New York Post that we’ll link to in the show notes that I think it’s just challenging this question again in today’s environment and in today’s uh, interest rate environment and the housing shortage that we have.

And so before we get [00:06:00] into specifics on the value of buying versus the value of renting, I want to get both of your perspectives. Nate is a realtor, also is an investor, and David is a buy and hold investor. On what you’re seeing out there in the market related to this buy versus hold in today’s And today’s climate, Nate, let’s start with you.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, so I, again, like you mentioned, I, as a realtor, I’m going to be a little biased on this. Um, but I have some numbers behind my bias, so maybe that’ll back it up. But, but generally speaking, uh, if you’re going to be in a place for, uh, a longer period of time, and I would define that as, as a couple of years or more.

Generally speaking, it’s going to be better to, to buy, right? You’re going to be able to mitigate some of those costs. Um, and of actual purchase price, right? Like the, the loan closing costs and the taxes and things like that. Um, with the appreciation that houses is likely going to see over time. Um, shorter than that, I still think it’s, it’s viable to rent.

I will say like typically if you’re going to be there for a shorter period of time, the renting can be [00:07:00] better because the price can be lower. But what I’m seeing now is that rent prices have gone up so much that even that is starting to fall away. And where you could have a situation where it actually might be better to buy even if you’re only going to be there a year because you can hold on to it, rent it out when you’re done or sell the property later when you’re done and it actually might be a wash at that point.

So that, that timeline for me in, in, in our target market here in, in, you know, Northeast Ohio, um, has really kind of shifted down. I know that’s not the case in higher cost living areas, but rent has just gone up so much that it’s making it, it’s making it harder.

Tim Ulbrich: Nate, as we see appreciation starting to come back closer to historic norms, right, we had a, uh, massive appreciation, you know, I think about post pandemic and, you know, that changes the decision of, of maybe how long you have to be in a home before you can break even when you think about closing costs, fees, taxes, et cetera, as we see that appreciation level returning more to quote normal, Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Does that impact how you think about the timeline at all in terms of being at home to [00:08:00] break even? Yeah.

Nate Hedrick: I mean, absolutely. Right. You have to kind of factor that in. But, uh, I think that, so it’s funny, you mentioned the getting your property tax bill. So like I said, here in Cuyahoga County, we do it every six years where they’ll reassess your home when it, when it transfers.

And then if you’re sitting in that house, they’ll reassess all the houses every six years that have just been kind of sitting there, not selling. And in our market, the lowest. City like municipality increase was 22 percent the highest markets were closer to 70 percent increase in market value 70 percent all coming at once right every six years, right?

So they’re just hitting everybody at one go. And it’s just, I mean, it’s a huge, huge increase that’s taken place. So I think, like you said, that has shifted down, right? We’re not nearly that crazy. I don’t think we’re going to see that level of crazy over the next couple of years. So it does impact that, right?

You can’t just, uh, David and I have talked about this on the podcast in the past, that if you were buying in 2020, 2021, you looked like a genius if you sold the house a year later because the property values were just skyrocketing so quickly. That is not going to be the [00:09:00] case anymore. But even despite that, you’ve got to weigh that with how rent prices have increased because that’s the, that’s the flip side of that, that decision.

And we’ll come back

Tim Ulbrich: to this in a little bit, but I think it’s important because when we hear things like, Hey, buy a house because you’re going to build equity, certainly when we zoom out over a long period of time, history would tell us that that’s true. And in fact, many people, uh, the data suggests that they’re building their wealth and part of the retirement plan through their home value going up over time.

Now, I don’t think that’s necessarily the case for many of our listeners that are probably saving substantial amounts outside of that. But what we have to remember is there’s a difference between equity and cashflow today. Right. So, you know, I, I’ve seen, uh, we moved into our house in 2018. We bought it for three 45, five, it’s funny how you never forget the numbers, right?

Certain numbers, uh, three, three 45, five. And I think last I checked, you know, Redfin or whoever says, Hey, it should be worth, you know, five, 10 or whatever, whatever the number is. That’s great. But guess what? My property taxes are coming up today. That impacts the budget today. [00:10:00] The equity, unless I’m borrowing against that equity to leverage and use it elsewhere in the financial plan.

I don’t feel that equity. You know, right now, so we have to also consider that in the decision, David, from a buy and hold investor perspective. How are you viewing the rent versus buy debate in today’s market?

David Bright: Yeah, I think it’s going to be very, very market specific is Nate. You gave some great examples of Cleveland area and what it’s looking like there.

Um, I was talking with someone else in a different market and they were saying that to buy their house would be about 3, 000 a month and to rent their house would be about 2, 000 a month. And that’s just the house payment. So not, not counting the furnace that’s going to go out, the roof that’s going to need replaced the, even if you just want to do paint and flooring, like just paint and flooring can be really expensive in a house too.

So with those kinds of considerations there, when they were describing that they probably only want to be in that house a couple of years while they get to know the area better and find their more forever [00:11:00] home, it started to make a lot of sense to. to rent instead of buy in that, in that market because of that spread on the monthly cost.

And Tim, to your point about the monthly budget, allowing you to save up for that down payment for that eventual, uh, forever home. So I think that it, I think that the market specifics are really going to play into this decision for different people based on what the rent looks like in the area versus what a monthly mortgage payment would look like.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. The other thing I would add to this discussion is I think about the work that we do at YFP and looking holistically at the financial plan. We have to remember that not any decision should be one that we look at in a silo. So we can run the numbers on a rent versus buy and maybe we have a clear answer.

But then when we zoom out, things might change. What else do we have going on, right? Are we, you know, looking at student loans and for someone who’s pursuing a loan forgiveness pathway versus an aggressive repayment, two very different strategies and impacts on On a monthly [00:12:00] cashflow. So as we look at the rest of the plan, you know, what else do we need to be saving?

Are we on track for investing in retirement planning and all the other goals that we talk about, how does this home piece and within that, the decision to rent versus buy fit within the broader context of the financial plan. And that’s so important because when we feel this pressure, you know, to buy, and if someone’s telling us, buy, buy, buy, maybe that’s the right move.

Maybe it’s not. Um, but. Are we looking at it in the context of, of everything else that’s going on as well. Let’s talk more about the potential benefits of renting. Nate, we’ve been alluding to the importance of flexibility, um, as we’re having this discussion, especially in today’s market where moving can mean significant transition expenses.

When we talk about the cost of transition, the cost of moving and why that timeline piece is so important. What are we actually referring to here in terms of these costs?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, I think, I think you said it perfectly, like flexibility is, is [00:13:00] that, is that piece, right? Because if you buy And you are locking yourself into that home, right?

Like we said, if you want to get value on it, if you want to make a financial decision, you have to be able to, uh, uh, sell it at a certain period, or you have to be able to rent it out and make it viable, or else it’s going to be this, this handcuff that you’re kind of stuck to if you, if you end up having to move.

If you go the rent route, you build in that flexibility. You let yourself be able to make a change much more rapidly. I’ll give you a perfect example from my own real life. My brother lives out in California and bought a house a couple of years ago. Loves it. Great house. Fantastic. Um, but decided this summer like, Hey, I want to take some time.

I can work from anywhere. I work for a tech company. I want to like travel to Europe for a couple of months. And I want to live in Japan for a while. Well, there’s a whole house that he has to like figure out what to do with, right? He has to rent that out, get someone to take care of it, make sure the lawn is cut, make sure that, you know, if there’s a storm, the solar panels haven’t flipped off the house or there’s a lot that goes into that, that just really brings down your flexibility.

So I [00:14:00] think in today’s day and age where people are, are looking for that, where their jobs are more flexible, they’re, they’re changing jobs more frequently. They. Are doing things like a sabbatical, I think buying a house actually locks you into something that makes it just a little trickier to do that.

And so when you’re talking about like, Hey, I might rent just because financially I’m going to lose a couple hundred bucks a year or whatever, but the flexibility is worth my, my peace of mind, like that’s a completely viable option. Yeah,

Tim Ulbrich: I’m especially thinking about the people that might be in a known state of transition, right?

You know, I’m coming out of a residency or coming out of the fellowship. You know, sometimes we have this idea and, and there’s no judgment here. I remember having these feelings as well, where it’s like, Hey, we’re in an area and we’re going to be here forever. Well, like that changes, right? We thought we’d be in Northeast Ohio, uh, forever.

And then I realized I can’t listen to Brown sports radio anymore. It’s atrocious how depressing it is. So like, we got to move, we got to move to Columbus, right? Um, but that was a move I would, we would have never anticipated. [00:15:00] Now, thankfully we’re in that home long enough that, you know, we mitigated the costs of that transition, but.

Sometimes what we think is known may become unknown, and you know, that flexibility piece is a really important one that we have to consider into the equation. Now, on the flip side of that, we’ll talk about how one of the big values, I think, of having a home is just that sense of stability and community and being in a place that we often can’t put a number to.

Um, and so that, that flip side has to also be considered. David, beyond flexibility, what else comes to mind when you think about the potential benefits of renting?

David Bright: Yeah, I think the the dollars and cents really ring true like if I put on a fix and flip hat I tend to budget Whatever the sale price is, I’ll walk away with 91 percent of that, that I, I tend to figure 9 percent of the final sale price will go to, uh, realtor fees and transfer tax, closing costs, and some of those things, and that percentage is going to be different at different price points and different [00:16:00] markets, uh, but, but that can give you a ballpark figure to think about, and in addition, when it’s your own house that you’re living in, if you’re going to hire movers, if you’re going to Buy different furniture in a different house.

There’s a, there’s a lot of costs there. So I think that plays into the flexibility piece of if this is a temporary house, then that starts to make me nervous from what those costs are going to be. I think another factor might also be the timing of all that. So if you buy a house and you’re thinking of like Tim, your equity example is fantastic.

Like how much equity has gone up. And then I think a lot of us tend to think, well, that creates great equity as the down payment for the next house. The issue being then you have to sell the first house to unlock that equity. It’s, it’s trapped in that house until it sells. So it creates this timing issue of you sell to access those funds to put down in the next property, or you need to be saving for that as well.

So I think the dollars [00:17:00] and cents bring some, some complexity to that. Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: And, and I harped on this a little bit, but I’m going to go back to it because I know so many of our listeners can resonate with this. And it’s something that Jess and I felt in our own journey that they might see their net worth trajectory going in a very positive direction, but they don’t feel that they don’t feel that right.

Because often it’s, it’s, it’s net worth that might be locked up in equity in a home or it’s net worth that’s locked up in a 401k or an IRA. So part of the financial planning process is when we’re making some of these decisions There’s an important liquidity piece as well that if we want to find this balance between growing and building our net worth for the future, yes, it’s important, but living a rich life today also important part of living that rich life today is having some liquidity and flexibility to do things, the things that we want to do, um, and sometimes not always market specific.

Sometimes renting might give us more of that flexibility, um, and allow us, especially when we think about if we use a traditional 20 percent [00:18:00] down on a home. Now, I know a lot of pharmacists may not necessarily do that. There’s a big chunk of cash right there that we’re then locking up right into that home.

And that could be very valuable, but also there’s an opportunity cost that we have to consider of where those dollars could be used elsewhere in the plan, whether it be other goals or experiences or other things that we haven’t touched on. I also think about from, from our experience, we rented a condo.

Uh, I know Nate, you’ll know where this is. Monroe Falls, uh, was our first rental. Um, and there was significant savings on time and money on upkeep and maintenance. Um, you know, someone took care of the property. I think about the amount of time in our current home, whether it’s hiring contractors or dealing with downed trees or, you know, taking care of the lawn and, you know, we can’t grow grass because the kids are playing and whatever it is, like there’s a lot of things that we have to factor and consider that’s both time, mental energy and financial related.

And so that could be one of the other, uh, benefits potentially of, of, of renting that we need to be [00:19:00] thinking about. Let’s turn the page and look further at the benefits of buying. So Nate, the one that typically gets the most attention, we’ve, we’ve mentioned a few times now is building equity, building equity, building equity.

We throw that term around a lot. What, what does that even mean? And does it really matter as much as we think it does, especially as we’ve been talking about this question of liquidity?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, it’s, it’s actually a good thing to like take a step back on. Right? So, so equity by definition is just the, the, the intrinsic value that’s sort of like left in the house.

Right? So if I buy a hundred thousand dollar house. With 20 percent down, right? I’m putting 20, 000 into it. Uh, and, and 80, 000 loan. Well, over time, I’m paying down that loan, right? I’m paying down the balance and hopefully the property is also going up in value. So, let’s say we’re five years down the road and it’s worth 150, 000 and my loan balance is down to 75, 000.

Well, now I’ve got 75, 000 in equity, meaning if I were to sell the house today, That’s the difference in value that I’ve sort of created for myself. [00:20:00] Uh, some of that is, is the original down payment that you put in. Some of it is appreciation. Some of it’s loan payoff. But all those things are basically increasing the buffer between what you owe and what something might be worth.

Now tapping it is, is there’s lots of ways to do that, right? We could sell the house to get that money back out, to get the equity back out. Like David said, we’re going to lose some of that to fees and things like that. You could also refinance, uh, but you can’t usually tap all of that equity. Just like when you put down 20 percent to purchase a home, when you refinance to get either a HELOC or do like a cash out refinance or something like that, you have to leave some of that equity in the property as collateral for the bank.

So they might do Uh, 90 percent loan to value, meaning that they’ll give you 90 percent of that 150, 000, but you got to leave that other 10 percent locked into the property. So we can tap that equity in multiple ways, or like you said earlier, Tim, if you just kind of sit back, right, and do nothing, uh, that equity is sort of stuck in there, right?

You might see [00:21:00] that on your net worth balance sheet, but you’re not putting it into your pocket if you’re just kind of sitting back. So. So equity is this thing, this kind of elusive thing that you really only see when you go after

Tim Ulbrich: it. Let’s talk about the leverage of the equity a little bit more, uh, when we think about something like a HELOC.

So what Jess and I have done Pretty conservative, probably overly conservative is we’ve taken out a HELOC and, uh, probably time to increase the HELOC just with what’s happened with appreciation. Um, but we’ve never drawn on it. So I kind of view it as a, as a backup to a backup of an emergency fund, or if, if the right opportunity comes up, whether that be real estate or business or something, uh, where the calculated risk makes sense.

Obviously that calculation has changed just given the interest rates on the HELOC. Then it’s there, right? And we have access to it, uh, when, when we need it, I think both of you, correct me if I’m wrong, have used a HELOC before it actually leveraged that in terms of real estate transactions and kind of getting some of that off the ground.

Can you speak to that a little bit [00:22:00] further? And that may or may not be right for other people, but it’s, it’s something to consider of, Hey, we’ve got this equity building and maybe want to be more conservative. That’s just a tomorrow thing. It’s part of the retirement plan, or maybe there is an opportunity to leverage it today.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, I’ve done it myself and I’ve had investor clients do it as well where they’re using that HELOC for either, uh, purchasing the, the property itself or doing the rehab. Um, we use ours most recently on a rehab where we actually tapped the HELOC to help fix up a house. Um, and then once we refinanced, they immediately paid that off, right?

The, the advantage years ago was then you HELOC at three and a half percent. It was like free money essentially, right? Now ours is closer to prime. Um, I think ours is most recently a credit score got us down to like prime minus, which is really cool. Um, but it’s still like 7 percent on the HELOC. So, uh, you can tap that money and use it for whatever you want.

It’s, it’s, it’s free cash, but you’re paying 7 percent of that every single year. And so you have to, you have to keep that in mind. So, um, yeah, it’s a completely viable option. But [00:23:00] the, David will tell you this every single day. You have to have a plan for that because if it just sits there. Now, all of a sudden you’re losing money by, by tapping that because you got to make sure you’re, you’re making up the difference in the, in the value that you’re, you’re adding with the money that you’ve taken out.

Tim Ulbrich: It reminds me of one time my dad shared with me, uh, you know, when it comes to a business, line of credit’s a really good thing if you have a plan. Line of credit without a plan, not a good thing. Yeah. Right. I think a VLOC with a plan, because what I hear you saying in that example is, Hey, even if it’s seven, seven and a half percent, whatever it is now.

If you’ve run your numbers, you’re, you’re just factoring that into the equation. And by the way, if something changes, a delay or whatever, you’ve got a backup plan and, and, you know, are able to work through that. So David, what about, what about for you?

David Bright: Yeah, I, I love the emergency fund philosophy for it also, because I think particularly as you get into real estate investing, emergencies can get bigger.

If something goes wrong. And I think as you are buying a house and making some of these bigger life decisions, emergencies get bigger than what [00:24:00] they may have been prior to that level of complexity in your world. So when you have, uh, kids growing older and multiple cars and, and all kinds of things like that, I think it, it.

Can help me sleep at night as the conservative pharmacist, just knowing that there’s access to that kind of money and that kind of liquidity when necessary.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. And I think in theory, everyone’s risk tolerance was different, but it does open up the door, you know, to take some more calculated risk in other areas.

When you know, you’ve got that as, as a backstop as well, David, in addition to building equity and, and potentially leveraging that equity, what, what other benefits of buying come to mind for you?

David Bright: I think one huge thing that’s, that’s hard to put down in dollars and cents is just the stability of that house.

And so if you’re looking for something in a specific school district, in a specific area, part of town, something like that, if you’re renting, depending on the, the laws in that state, once that lease is up, you may need to move [00:25:00] whether you’re ready to or interested in moving or not. So. Uh, that’s, that’s a potential complexity.

So the stability because you own it and you can stay there as long as you reasonably want to is, is something. There’s some predictability in that as well with the, with the payments. I think what we’ve talked about already with property taxes is a really good asterisk on that equation. I think another one that I think is gonna, I think we’re already seeing headlines and I think we’re only going to see more headlines on it is.

Property insurance as well has gone up quite a bit. And as we see things like, uh, like the fires in Los Angeles and things like that, there’s some really significant expenses coming up. And if that continues to drive, uh, property insurance up, then. You know, we need to budget for those kind of increased costs.

So, but at least some predictability on the principal and interest payment on that loan. Um, plus I think that one of the things we’ve, we’ve talked about too, is when your different [00:26:00] investments allow you different opportunities to, to push those yourself and, you know, Maybe what we’ve talked about before is you can’t paint an index fund to make it worth more, but you could paint your house to make it worth more, right?

So there’s some opportunities, whether it’s hiring a painter, whether it’s doing the sweat equity yourself of getting in there and taking a property that’s not all that pretty, but by making it pretty and nice, you can, you can increase the value to even if you’re not, uh, the handiest person on earth.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I love what you said about the predictability, at least on the principal and interest side, assuming it’s a fixed rate mortgage, um, you know, while also recognizing we talked about property taxes. You gave another good example, homeowner insurance. That was one of those bills I got in December. We pay it once a year where I was like, what percent increase, what are we talking about?

Yeah. Right. And we need to remember the way insurance works, right? Natural disasters in Florida or natural disasters in California. Have a far reaching impact from an insurance standpoint beyond just those areas, you know, and I think we’re seeing that happen [00:27:00] in terms of, of premium increases. I want to talk to our first time homebuyers, Nate, and let’s start with you, you know, this is a question I get a lot, which is, hey, we’re looking at buying a home, maybe we’ve been sitting on the sidelines.

We’re wondering, right, do I keep sitting on the sidelines? I was hoping rates would drop in, in 24. Maybe we saw that a little bit. Rates trending back up ish. I think we’re hovering back around 7%. Do I wait? Do I make a move? We’re talking about long term appreciation, you know, obviously there’s a, there’s a shortage of housing.

We’ve got lots of buyers in the market that pent up demand is only going to potentially get worse. What, what, what, what words would you have to share to those first time home buyers?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, I get this question all the time. In fact, I just had a brand new pharmacist client that, uh, is going to start looking here in Cleveland.

And the last question she asked me as we were kind of going through like our buyers presentation was, uh, is it, is it actually a good time to buy? Like, should I be doing this right now? Right. And that question comes up all the time. And I think it’s a really hard thing to answer because Baker says it great [00:28:00] on the podcast all the time, right?

Like trying to time the market is really difficult. Time in the market is better than timing the market, right? And so it’s the same with housing. It’s a very difficult thing to say, well, this is the perfect time because prices are blah, blah, blah. And interest rates or whatever. It’s a very difficult thing to get, to get right.

Um, so what I would say is if you are in a market where things continue to appreciate. Right? And most markets are that way right now. Uh, Every month you wait, is more down payment you’re going to have to find, is more house payment you’re going to have to make down the road, right? If things continue to go up.

Now, if things pull back and things, things decrease, like that’s a different story. But what we’re seeing is that as these appreciations continue to go up, people are like, well, I’ll wait because then my payment will be lower when the interest rates are lower. The payment is actually going up because the houses have gone up and the price they have to spend has gone up.

They could always refinance down the road if interest rates come down, uh, but you can’t change the housing costs if, if [00:29:00] appreciation continues. So I would love to say, just sit on the sidelines until all the housing prices come down. Um, but what I’m seeing is that there aren’t a lot of market factors.

There’s a housing shortage right now, right? And so there aren’t a lot of market factors that seem to indicate housing prices are going to come down dramatically. And so waiting doesn’t really seem to be a benefit at this stage. I just, I just, I don’t see the point in that quite honestly.

Tim Ulbrich: And the number of buyers sitting on the sidelines is compounding now, right?

So, you know, I think we’re, we’re obviously dealing with a competition piece that’s there as well. And, and Nate, I’ll put a plug here because the timing’s good in terms of what you’re doing with the real estate RPH and the home buying concierge service. So if we have folks that are listening and saying, Hey, I’m wondering.

Uh, about, you know, the home buying decision, whether you’re in the mix right now or thinking about on the horizon. Uh, we’ll link to, uh, Nate’s website, real estate RPH on the show notes, but, uh, be a great chance to get connected with Nate and have that conversation and, uh, find an agent that would be a good fit for you.

David, what are your thoughts from, from the, uh, investor perspective?

David Bright: Yeah, I think [00:30:00] that a lot of this discussion depends on what you’re buying. So I know it’s really tempting the brand new grad getting out of school first job with a real paycheck where you can buy like brand name mac and cheese instead of generic mac and cheese.

Let’s go. All those like big life changes. I feel like that’s the point at which a lot of pharmacists want to find their forever house right away. Um, and I think we’ve talked about some of those risks of job changes and life changes and things like that, where that forever house that you think you want it at, you know, 25 may not really be that forever house.

So I think that there’s something in there about, uh, if, if you’re, if you’re looking for more of that starter home, that creates so many more options because it’s probably at a lower price point. It’s probably going to then have a lower down payment, lower monthly payment consideration. And one thing that we’ve.

We’ve kind of hinted at, but we haven’t really said out loud yet, is the opportunity to, to buy that house with the intention of it being a rental and you’re really just thinking of it [00:31:00] as renting from yourself, retaining it as a rental down the line. You may find the best of both worlds though, where you’re thinking of it as, as a rental.

This doesn’t need to be my forever home. This doesn’t need to be the home that I’m truly in love with. But this is as good, if not better than somebody else’s rental. Instead, I can be the landlord and I can have that stability. And then when I’m done with it, it can be a great investment when I go buy my forever home.

So I think depending on what you’re looking at, it could be a, a really good time to jump in. That’s

Tim Ulbrich: a really interesting perspective, David. And I think just some of the pre planning that would have to be done to go in with that mindset. And then also thinking about certain associations, rental restrictions, other things, making sure you’re buying with that in mind, if that’s the goal and looking accordingly.

One other area we have to talk about is the micro market considerations. We’re talking global trends here. Um, I always think about Ramit Sethi on his podcast. He lives in New York city and he’s like the rent, rent, rent guy, right? [00:32:00] Like. You know, don’t feel the pressure to buy. And he’s obviously come in his perspective of like buying a home in New York city, doesn’t make any sense.

We’re coming from the perspective of the Midwest, the micro market considerations have to be considered because then we start to really look at the numbers and not just talking these generalizations of a buy versus red. Nate, what are your thoughts on, on the micro market?

Nate Hedrick: I mean, the classic line is that real estate is local.

I mean, you have to know your own market to be able to make that decision. I mean, like you said, everything we’ve been talking about, we’re, you know, we try to keep a global perspective on it, but we are so biased toward the Midwest. I think when you look at a 200, 000 starter home being four bedroom, two bath, like you don’t get that.

Anywhere on the east or west coast, like it’s just not a thing. Um, and we’re used to that as like, it’s a normal, like, Oh yeah, I can get those in this market and that neighborhood and that school district. And like, it’s just very different. And so I think you have to know your local market. Um, and if you don’t know your local market, get somebody on your team that does.

Get a really good local real estate agent to [00:33:00] actually explain this stuff, because you, you have to know it. It makes the decision. It totally changes how you can make that decision.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. And David, we’re not just talking city, right? You know, I think about Columbus. Like Great example, we live south of Grove City here in Orient, probably no one’s heard of Orient, smaller rural town, you know, vastly different in terms of when I think about property taxes, school district quality, other factors versus 15 20 minutes away in Upper Arlington, New Albany, Westerville, etc.

So, David, it’s not just the city, but it’s, it’s the, it’s the micro micro, right, that we need to get, even within neighborhoods, to be frank.

David Bright: Absolutely. I think, yeah, you, you look at those cities within a city, you look at the school district, you look at the, even down to the area within that. Is that kind of a path of progress?

Is there something going in across the street that’s going to change that neighborhood? Is there a A new development happening, uh, one block

Tim Ulbrich: to

David Bright: a next. And, and even, uh, I think the example that a [00:34:00] lot of people overlook when they’re shopping online and looking at beautiful listing photos is. What are the, you know, the neighbor’s houses?

It could be a gorgeous house next to two completely run down, boarded up properties, or it could be a gorgeous house next to more gorgeous houses. And the, those factors on that block could even make up a significant impact into desirability and price points and those kinds of things.

Tim Ulbrich: I want to wrap up by.

Just giving some global perspective from each one of us on, on really answering the, so what question? What, what do I do with this information to really inform my own decision making whether I’m a first time home buyer, or maybe I’m looking at potentially making a move, or I’m thinking about investing in a property and I’ll kick us off for, for me, it’s really going back to what is the vision?

What is the why? So what, what are we trying to accomplish? And David, I think your example is a really good one. Like if I’m looking at purchasing a property that. Maybe I can start to build as an investment property and, and really be the, the renter and eventually, you know, have [00:35:00] my first investment property.

That’s a very different philosophy than potentially, you know, I’m, I’m in a state of transition or I want to experience different parts of the country, or we’ve got a young family and we’re looking for stability. We’re starting in kindergarten, whatever would be the case, what’s the vision and, and really trying to move away from the generalizations of, Hey.

You know, buying is good. Equity is good. Renting is bad and really layering on what are your goals and desires. And then overlapping that, of course, with what’s happening in the markets in which you’re looking at. And I think just reminding ourselves that every market is different. Renting is not always bad.

And if we’ve been told that story, like. I think we need to unwind that a little bit. It can depend on the market, um, in terms of what’s happening that year, in terms of the local geography of that market as well. And one more time, making sure we’re zooming out. So, you know, what else is going on in the financial plan?

And when we think about the vision and the why of buying or renting and what that means to us, and [00:36:00] we overlap that with other goals, whether that be paying down student loan debt or other debt, saving and investing, traveling, experiences. What actually moves the needle for you? And where does this home buying decision, where does it rank among these other things?

I think sometimes we can feel these pressures to like buy something. And then I sit down with someone and really what matters most to them maybe is travel or experiences or giving or other things. And as Ramit Sethi, I think often says so well, like let’s spend money on the things we care about and not spend as much money on the things that we don’t care about.

And so. I often use cars as an example, but for people that might be housing, where some people, that sense of community and having your own place. Being able to make it your own, being able to work on projects around the house, that derives significant value and for other people, not as much. And I think just having that honest conversation with ourselves is, is so important to inform this decision.

Nate Hedrick: Nate,

Tim Ulbrich: what about for

Nate Hedrick: you? I think your last point was actually just really worth reiterating about like, do what is valuable to you. [00:37:00] Um, I talk to so many people, both investors and buyers, that just like buy a thing. And then six months later, like, why did we buy this house? Like we didn’t actually want this.

We didn’t actually need that. We didn’t realize we couldn’t sell it. We have to hold it. Like, there’s all these things that like, it’s easy to get wrapped up in the, well, this is what I’m supposed to do next thing. And not actually taking a step back of like, what do I actually want to achieve, right? Maybe it’s, I want to take a year to assess if Columbus or Cleveland or Miami is the place I want to live.

And it’s a great idea to rent there for a year while you figure that out, right? Uh, and then decide, okay, well, now that we’ve lived here, we realize we do need an outdoor space, or we absolutely need a basement, or, you know, whatever those things are. Like, take your time to assess what you want and then assess it for yourself.

Like, don’t listen to what your best friend is saying, or the guy at work who is You know, frustrated with his rental properties, like figure out what you want to do. Figure out what works for your local market, investor or [00:38:00] buyer, uh, and then make a decision based on that information.

Tim Ulbrich: And sometimes to your point Nate, you’re surprised by when you get into the area or get into the home.

Oh, I never really thought about the value of this feature of the home or this aspect of the community. I’ll give a small, maybe what feels like a silly example. But when we moved in our home, currently it had a wood burning fireplace. And I’m like, Oh, that’s cool. Like That’s a deal breaker now if we ever move like I love the wood and like the memories that have come from like for us It’s Sunday night football and we’re throwing you know, wooden the fire and we’re hanging out like That’s the rich life, you know, for us.

And, and I couldn’t have anticipated that. That seems small, but it’s a big

Nate Hedrick: deal. Super funny that you say that Tim, because that was actually on our must have lists and our realtor at the time, this is again, like 11 years ago now, thought we were bonkers for being like wood burning fireplace is a must have.

He’s like, don’t you mean like 2, 400 square foot and above? And I’m like, no, I mean, wood burning fireplace. So I totally get it. And for other

Tim Ulbrich: people, they’re like, I don’t want to deal with the hassle of that. [00:39:00] That’s fine. They’re like, can I convert this to gas? And I’m like, stop,

Nate Hedrick: you can’t.

David Bright: David, what about for you?

Yeah, I think it’s, it’s a season of really cautious, really honest math and making sure, you know, we, we’ve talked about all the surprises that can come out there, whether it’s property taxes or homeowner’s insurance or moving costs or. Uh, the cost of furnishing and fixing up a house every time you move.

I think just being really honest with that math is, is helpful. Whether that’s, whether you’re thinking as an investor and needing to also think through additional costs like property management and major repairs coming, or whether you’re thinking through as a, as a short term or long term homeowner in that space with what repairs are coming up soon.

And because I think as we do that math, you can, you can start to more objectively identify, well, if the, if the price point. Is really high, but the rent would be much lower. Maybe it does make sense to rent or if, uh, if they’re [00:40:00] really close, maybe we think about one versus the other. I think the math can really help as long as you’re really comprehensive and what that math means.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. And speaking of intentional, comprehensive, cautious math, there’s a great rent versus buy calculator tool out there that I often like to reference. I’ll link to that in the show notes. It was published by the New York times. I think it really helps to. Just put numbers and try to make it as apples to apples as we possibly can, right?

We all know the emotional feeling when you’re looking at homes. Nate, you and I have often joked about this on the show before where someone’s, you know, I’m thinking about buying in one or two years and then they start searching and like, we’re buying tomorrow, right? It can happen and, and I think really looking at the numbers and trying for this to be an apples to apples comparison or at least as close to possible and then layering on top of the calculations can be some more of the, the emotional factors that we’ve been talking about throughout the show.

Great stuff guys. Uh, as always, Nate, David, appreciate your expertise. Appreciate your perspective. Thank you for letting me hijack your show, uh, as the [00:41:00] host, uh, for, for this episode and, uh, looking forward to your, your content throughout the year. So thanks so much guys. Appreciate it. Thank you.

[END]

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YFP 348: 2024 Housing Market Trends & Assumable Rate Mortgages

Posted on by YFP Media

Tony Umholtz of First Horizon shares insights on the real estate landscape for 2024. Sponsored by First Horizon.

Episode Summary

In this week’s podcast sponsored by First Horizon, we’re joined by Tony Umholtz, a Mortgage Loan Officer from First Horizon, to delve into the housing market updates and trends for 2024. He shares insights on current rates, supply/demand dynamics, and the impact of projected Fed Rate cuts in 2024 on the market. The episode explores the pros and cons of buying a home now versus waiting and delves into assumable rate mortgages—what they are, how they function, eligible loan types, and their growing popularity.

About Today’s Guest

Tony Umholtz is the Senior VP of Mortgage Banking at First Horizon. He graduated Cum Laude from the University of South Florida with a B.S. in Finance from the Muma College of Business. He then went on to complete his MBA. While at USF, Tony was part of the inaugural football team in 1997. He earned both Academic and AP All-American Honors during his collegiate career. After college, Tony had the opportunity to sign contracts with several NFL teams including the Tennessee Titans, New York Giants, and the New England Patriots. Being active in the community is also important to Tony. He has served or serves as a board member for several charitable and non-profit organizations including board member for the Salvation Army, FCA Tampa Bay, and the USF National Alumni Association. Having orchestrated over $1.1 billion in lending volume during his career, Tony has consistently been ranked as one of the top mortgage loan officers in the industry by the Scotsman’s Guide, Mortgage Executive magazine, and Mortgage Originator magazine.

Key Points from the Episode

Housing market trends in 2024, including interest rates and supply/demand. [0:00]
Housing market trends and mortgage rates. [2:37]
Home insurance costs and roof age impacting mortgage approval. [5:29]
Housing market trends and financial planning for a growing family. [11:14]
Refinancing and assumable rate mortgages. [17:11]
Pharmacist home loan options with 700 credit score minimum. [23:26]

Episode Highlights

“One of the positives are again, these are, you know, inventory levels, on average or higher in most markets. So every markets different we’ve talked about that in the past, some markets are, you can’t generalize across the country. But on average inventory levels are better in most areas. And typically around this time of year, you build a little bit more inventory.” – Tony Umholtz

“I mean, what we saw in ’21, ’22 ’20, as well, that was unhealthy. It was great to see your house price go way up, and you make made money on equity. But it was unsustainable. Having 2023 was a blessing. Yeah, I mean, look at it that way. I mean, that was unsustainable. And this was a blessing for all of us, because it would have created a bubble in my mind. And we stopped it. And the fed helped to stop that. And I think that was a win.” – Tony Umholtz

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I welcome First Horizon Mortgage Loan Officer Tony Umholtz back onto the show. During the show we discuss housing market updates and trends for the first quarter of 2024, including current rates supply and demand and how the projected fed rate cuts for 2024 impacting the market. We also discussed the pros and cons of buying now versus waiting and all things assumable rate mortgages. What they are, how they work, eligible loan types and why they are growing in popularity. Alright, let’s hear from today’s sponsor First Horizon and then we’ll jump in my interview with Tony Umholtz.

Tim Ulbrich 00:45

Does saving 20% for a down payment on a home feels like an uphill battle. It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities including high student loan debt, meaning that saving 20% for a down payment on a home may take years. For several years now we’ve been partnering with First Horizon who offers a professional home loan option AKA a doctor or pharmacist loan that requires a 3% down payment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers, has no PMI and offers a 30-year fixed rate mortgage on home loans up to $766,550 in most areas. The pharmacist home loan is available in all states except Alaska and Hawaii, and can be used to purchase condos as well. However, rates may be higher and a condo review has to be completed. To check out the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to start the pre-approval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

Tim Ulbrich 01:50

Tony, welcome back to the show.

Tony Umholtz 01:51

Tim, it’s good to be here with you.

Tim Ulbrich 01:53

We’re excited to have you back. As always we look to you to get our most up-to-date information on kind of what we’re seeing in the housing market, especially for those in 2024 that are looking to buy or sell. I know we’ve got a lot of first time homebuyers out there in our community that have been anxiously awaiting for the right right time to buy. And we’ve got people that have been in their home for a while, maybe in a starter home that are looking to sell and to move to elsewhere. And just a crazy market that I think is hindered a lot of the movement out there of people buying and selling. So why don’t we start there, Tony, of some of what you’re seeing here early in the first quarter of 2024 as it relates to the housing market, you know. What’s what’s going on with interest rates? What are you seeing out there with supply and demand?

Tony Umholtz 02:37

Well, all good questions, Tim. And as always great to be here with you. I you know, it’s been an interesting year, as we haven’t been into 2024 very long, but a lot has happened. And you know it, we kind of forecasted that this year would be a little better than 2023 as far as you know, mortgage volume and purchase volume. But we knew it was gonna be a tough year, we’re still coming out of this, this higher inflationary environment. There’s been some headwinds. But overall, there’s a lot of good things we’re seeing. And then there’s some not so good things. So I’ll start with one of the positives. One of the positives are again, these are, you know, inventory levels, on average or higher in most markets. So every markets different we’ve talked about that in the past, some markets are, you can’t generalize across the country. But on average inventory levels are better in most areas. And typically around this time of year, you build a little bit more inventory. But in a lot of places we haven’t had this amount of inventory since the 2019 are right before the pandemic, which is nice for buyers, right, because you’re finally getting an ability to find some some product and to negotiate a little bit. That being said, we’re still not in a normal market, we’re still under a normal market. Most markets are in that four month range of inventory. And an average markets probably five to seven months right inventory. So we’re still in a fairly tight environment for housing. And we’re still a bit under built nationally, meaning that we don’t have enough housing units. So that’s also you know, one of the reasons housing prices haven’t fallen, you know, despite the higher rates and the headwinds in the economy. Regarding rates, we have seen rates rise since the beginning of the year, and the rates were higher in October, early November than they are now. But we’ve seen an increase in a lot of that is due to positive economic data. Economic data has been positive on the you know, on the spending front, unemployment has been good, inflation is still there. I will say this to the last inflation report had had inflation but it was counting some inflation from last year. So like if you look past that we’re really going in the right direction. So I think the I think rates are gonna go down as time goes on. I think it’d be very slow this year. But you know, post the election, I think things can be pretty good. So I mean, it’s a roughly a year away, but I think you’re gonna see rates really get better as time goes on. But the other issue too coming back to this, you know, supply and demand we have as a mortgage company, we have so many clients we’ve pre-approved that are looking. It’s just gonna be, and I’m just one of many, but you know that it’s just going to get more competitive as those rates drop. So it’s like a kind of like a double edged sword, I think, you know.

Tim Ulbrich 03:32

Yeah, and I know we see that, Tony in our community. You know, a lot of first time homebuyers that’s it’s natural, right. As a new graduate, you finish pharmacy school, you’re looking at that home purchase. A lot of people are getting antsy on the renting front, “Hey, I’ve been renting for a while not not as long as I wanted.” They’re looking at what they’re paying for rent “Hey, I’d love to own a home, we’d love to build some equity long term.” And so certainly some pent up demand I know we see in our community. And I think that’s natural and expected to hear it broader than that, too. And I want our listeners to kind of hold that thought on, hey, if interest rates do come down, you know, here in 2024, what is the impact that that might have on the availability of the market? Because we’re going to talk a little bit about, you know, this concept of buy now versus wait, and what are some of the pros and cons. But before we do that, Tony, you shared something with me, before we hit record that I thought was of interest, would be of interest to our listeners, about what you’re seeing out there related to the age of a roof and how that might impact being able to get an insurance policy, which of course, you know, for homebuyers is a really important piece. So tell tell us more about what you’re seeing there?

Tony Umholtz 06:36

Sure. I mean, in the insurance aspect, it’s really big. And I think certain states are going to be tougher than others. So you’ve got, I’m based in Florida. So we’re ground zero for this, right? Because we’ve had, we had some legislation here in Florida that made, there were some abuses in you know, really more against the insurance industry, by various groups, and so forth. And people really has taken advantage of some of the flexibility. And it caused some challenges here. And there’s been some changes, as always, insurance companies are going to change what they insure, and one’s been roof age, right. So roof age is a big deal down here. It’s also in other states, too. So it’s not something that’s just here. And, you know, the costs of insurance have gone up a lot, right, and especially in more hurricane prone areas, or fire prone areas in the West, you’ve seen cost of insurance go up and I’ve seen like newer properties, you know, while they’re more expensive, the cost of insurance is much lower, you know, on newer construction, but it is more expensive generally to buy new construction. I would say the the age of the roof can vary a lot but and type of roof, whether it’s shingle or tile. So a tile roof typically has a longer age of life than a shingle roof. And the you know, though, sometimes we’ll cover those longer, but some insurance companies won’t touch it under 10 years, if it’s under, it’s got to be under 10 years, some are 15 years, some will go longer with what’s called a four point inspection, which not only looks at the roof, but looks at your, you know, your electrical, as well, looks at your plumbing, and other aspects of the home. But those are some things you may need to do. And it can become harder to get insurance or get the insurance that makes sense for you as far as costs go and coverage go. But it’s definitely an issue right now. And then, you know, with repairing a roof, it’s a lot of times it has to be done prior to closing. It’s not something you can essentially escrow. Right? You know, so, you know, if you’re selling a home and you have an older roof, repairing the roof is gonna help you get a much better deal on the house as far as the seller goes.

Tim Ulbrich 08:51

I’m glad you said that. That’s exactly where my mind was going. Right? If people are thinking about selling a home, this has an impact. If people are thinking about buying a home, it has an impact. And obviously every area of the country is different in terms of the risk and the exposure here. But it’s just another good reminder when you talk about rising insurance costs that you know, especially for that first time homebuyer, it’s very easy to fixate on purchase price of the home, right. Purchase price of the home. And we want to be thinking about the whole financial picture. So yes, it’s the purchase price of the home. It’s the mortgage that we’re going to carry the principal and interest but it’s also the taxes. It’s also the insurance, it’s also the upkeep, you know, and all those things involved. So here we’re talking about an older roof and being able to get an insurance policy if you do those insurance costs potentially going up. On top of that would be obviously that potential replacement costs to be thinking about of the roof, as well.

Tony Umholtz 09:38

That’s right. I have one little trick and secret. This is something we’ve we’ve done for 20 plus years and it doesn’t have a bearing on anything with mortgage. But sometimes clients will say, “hey, I need to get this insurance down.” And you have to have an you have to have a certain amount of coverage to get a mortgage right. So, but one thing you don’t need is, I’ll see these policies come in with $600,000 worth of personal property coverage. Yeah, well, as a lender, we don’t care about personal property. Now I recommend if you got valuables you have some coverage, right. But a lot of folks, especially buying a first home don’t have $600,000 worth of artwork and other collectibles to insure. So a lot of times taking that down, we’ll give you some premium savings. And we’ve done that quite often, over the years or suggested that.

Tim Ulbrich 10:25

Good reminder, right, to kind of look at line item of your insurance policy and what you do or don’t need, especially if you’re looking at if you options. Tony, as an aside, but related to that I we had a unfortunate fire in our neighborhood of a home, just down the street. And ever since then, we’re now a year and several months out where there’s been no movement on the house. And I presume it’s related to something being tied up in insurance. I don’t know the full backstory. But ever since then I have looked differently at my replacement cost line item, as well as the relocation piece of, you know. When you think about how long might this go on? And what are the expenses associated for relocation. So good reminder to look and understand your homeowners insurance policy.

Tony Umholtz 11:08

Absolutely.

Tim Ulbrich 11:10

Tony, I want to get your opinion on buy now versus wait. Obviously, we’re talking broadly, this, of course, is specific to one situation. But what made me think about this is I had a conversation with a colleague a couple of weeks ago, this individual is about seven years into their career, dual income household, young family just had their second child bought their first starter home about three years ago. And they’re now itching to move, right. Family has grown. They want to get a better location a little bit closer to commute to work. But naturally, as a part of that they’re facing some headwinds, those headwinds are obviously the market that we’re in. Interest rates are higher. Home costs have appreciated, of course, and in this case, they’re moving to an area that the homes are just more expensive altogether. And so when I was asking some questions, you know, what I heard, and what made me think that this is probably resonate with a lot of our community is that there’s several barriers that they’re facing. Yes, the current market conditions, but also, hey, we’ve got these student loan payments that are still hanging around, right. We’ve got daycare costs, which are rising, you know, quickly, especially now that they have a second child. And they really feel like they need to be saving more aggressively for retirement, they feel like they’re behind on retirement. And I think this is a great example of someone that I will talk to, on a regular basis that’s in this new practitioner phase of their career that feels like they’re not on track with their other financial goals, and is feeling somewhat trapped by this home situation that they’re in. And, you know, if we were to consider a move, potentially, knowing what’s going on in the market, knowing where interest rates are at, you know, potentially do we buy now, when rates are not at the highest, as you mentioned, but they’re quite high and hope we can refinance in the future? Or, do we wait and see what happens with interest rates come down with at that point, running the risk that, hey, as rates come down, I think it’s safe to assume we’re gonna have a lot more, you know, sellers are gonna have a lot more buyers that flood the market. So just would love to hear your thoughts, you know, knowing that this is a common situation we probably would hear and see in our community.

Tony Umholtz 13:10

Sure. I mean, it’s a great question. And it’s very common across the country right now. We’re seeing some of our clients, you know, growing families outgrowing their home or have to relocate because of employment situation. Very common. So I would say I mean, like we take a step back, we kind of touched on at the beginning of our discussion here is, if you look at the overall market, we’ve got lower than average inventory in most areas still, even though inventories building which inventory buildings a good thing, because we need it going into the spring season. But the you’re likely going to see pretty stable housing prices, right? Probably escalating like even if you look year over year, prices went up over last year. I mean, certain pockets fell. There’s certain areas that you know, fell. I think, but but on average home prices actually went up last year. Even with all those headwinds, right. So I think you’re getting into a pretty stable investment, as well, you know, if you if you’re moving up, like in a situation with the colleagues you spoke to, I mean, moving to a better part of town, a bigger home. I mean, all these things could be meaning more appreciation on the house, too. So yes, the cost is more, but there is the upside of appreciation. I do think we are going to all see, like anyone that bought in the last year, year to year and a half, almost two years now. They’re going to get opportunities to refinance in the future. I can’t tell you exactly when. But we’ve even seen some that are popping up that made sense. Now after these last few weeks of rates rising. We had a few clients and some of them had to pay their loan for six months just because that’s a guideline for the type of program they were in. And we couldn’t refinance them, but they the rates have dropped over a point they could have refinanced already. There’s people that have already refinanced. So I think I think you’re gonna see opportunities for that as time goes on, where your cost of ownership will actually come down. But it is tough right now, it’s very tough. There are less buyers buying. So I think you’re gonna be able to negotiate better with sellers, which is the is the benefit. But it’s a tough decision. I mean, this is where you look at the whole financial plan. Yeah, right, you’ve got to look at, okay, I’ve got daycare costs rising, I want to save more for retirement. You know, that brings me to, like, you know, making sure you’re utilizing all your company matches, right. And all the things you can do if that other buckets going up for housing, you know, and in there is no question, housing prices have trended higher, and, you know, they may, what would be healthy and really, I’ll take a step back here. I mean, what we saw in ’21, ’22 ’20, as well, that was unhealthy. It was great to see your house price go way up, and you make made money on equity. But it was unsustainable. Having 2023 was a blessing. Yeah, I mean, look at it that way. I mean, that was unsustainable. And this was a blessing for all of us, because it would have created a bubble in my mind. And we stopped it. And the fed helped to stop that. And I think that was a win. It made my business a lot harder. I don’t mean a lot of people. But it was one of those things where it was it was a blessing for this industry, I think and the housing market in general. So you know, just again, to clarify, I think you you are going to see a fairly flat market, I feel like this year, I do think you’re going to see a lot people stepping in, I will also mention that builders are opportunistic. And the builders know, there’s an opportunity right now, because we’re under built, we didn’t build enough homes from 2010 to 2020. So they’re going to be building. We’ll get to equilibrium, eventually, in the next few years. And I think things will be a little different then, but I don’t think prices are going to collapse in most markets, you know. And I think there’s been a bit of a pullback in certain areas. But for the bread and butter communities where most people are owner occupied, you’re not going to see a lot of variance.

Tim Ulbrich 17:11

Great perspective, Tony. And I think what really resonated with me with this conversation that I had is, you know, yes, there’s the objective math part right of buying a home, and we want to make sure that it fits in with the rest of the financial plan. But it also, there’s an emotional part of this that is important, you know, for I know firsthand for us, our home is we spend most of our time in our home. It’s it’s a place where we’re making memories and experiences. And so there’s this tug and pull that I see with a lot of pharmacists, which is a healthy kind of balance that we’ve got to strike of, hey, how do we have a reasonable percentage of our income going towards our home so that we can achieve other financial goals, right, we don’t want to be house poor. But also we recognize that, you know, part of living a rich life today is potentially the home and what we’re going to be able to build in that community and our experiences and so forth. And this is the tug and pull, right that we’ve got to think about. I do have one question and I’m hesitating even ask this because I have a feeling the answer is it depends. But when you mentioned the the example of a 1% reduction and refinance, and you know, in that example, they hadn’t yet got to that six month timeline that you mentioned with that loan product. Is there a general rule of thumb that you think about in terms of rate differential and where someone starts to begin to think that a refinance, of course, when you consider costs involved in doing that may be advantageous? Is it at that point? Is it less is a little bit more? Or is it just too much of it depends?

Tony Umholtz 18:37

Well, I don’t want to say it depends, but there’s a lot of variables, and one of them is clearly is the loan size. Right? Which is, I mean, it might 21 plus years doing this in this business, I mean, generally said 1%, but I’ve had numerous, especially when we do what’s called premium pricing, which means we as a lender pay the closing costs, which is a way to do that. Now, you don’t get the same rate that you would if you paid the customary costs, right. But like I’ve had larger loans, where we’ve done it at as little as 50 basis points, which is a half point. But if you have a million dollar loan, and there’s no closing costs, and you’re saving interest, you’re going to do it. So we’ve we’ve had all kinds of scenarios, but generally I look for 1% and that tend to people on the loan size and the state, certain states have higher closing costs than other states you know, so that would be the two variables.

Tim Ulbrich 19:31

Yeah, reason I asked I think to your point is we’re gonna see this come up, and maybe we’ll have to do another episode later this year if we start to see things trending because we haven’t talked about it right much in the last couple years for good reason.

Tony Umholtz 19:42

I wouldn’t be surprised if we get into the third quarter and closer to the election, we start seeing some movement. So we’ll just watch it.

Tim Ulbrich 19:50

The next thing I wanted to pick your brain on was around assumable rate mortgages. So I read an article on Wall Street Journal a couple weeks ago that really just piqued my interest about this topic and I know one we haven’t talked about on the show before, and obviously in the current rate environment that we’re in, I have a feeling some of this information starts to go viral. And people are like, Well, wait a minute, Can I get an assumable? rate mortgages? So can you define for us? What is an assumable? Rate Mortgage? You know, how do these types of products work? And then give us the, you know, the real life of how viable these may or may not be as people are considering their options?

Tony Umholtz 20:26

Sure, well, they do exist. It wasn’t just an article in the Wall Street Journal. They do exist. They’ve been they’ve been out there for a long time. And there’s really only three programs that are that are available that are assumable. And one is called an FHA loan, which we’ve touched on the other ones, a VA loan, and the last one is at USDA loan. So they’re all three government programs. And the interesting thing about VA is you don’t necessarily have to be a veteran, you can assume it, you still have to be approved by the servicing lender. But you don’t have to be a veteran, which is interesting, you know, and so, you know, couple of the the pros and cons, obviously, the big pro is, first of all, you have to find a seller willing to do this, right? That’s the number one thing. The other thing would be, I had someone call me on one of these just asking my opinion. And it was it was there was the ability to assume the loan, it was a low fixed rate, it was around three and a quarter or something like that much lower than today’s environment. But the amount of appreciation above what that loan is, and you have to pay the seller for all their principal reduction, but the home was worth so much more now on the down payment is huge. So like in this, I’m just kind of give you an example: They may have borrowed 300,000, but the house is worth $420,000. Yep, so you’re gonna have to bring $420,000 to get to the what they owe, or sorry, $120,000. So it’s $120k. It’s a big down payment. So with these assumable loans, a lot of times the new buyer has to come and compensate the owner for the difference and it’s a huge amount, right, normally, because the markets run up so much and you may have put money down. Now those three programs do, I mean FHA does carry PMI, but the rates are so low, that it wouldn’t matter in a lot of these cases. The VA loan, you have to get approved by the servicing lender, okay, so they will have to approve you for the product, that means you’re going to have to meet all the criteria for the loan size, just like any other loan, it’s not going to be the same as communicating like with a team, like myself or another lender that is originating every day, you’re not going to get that service level, it’s going to be more like a we’ll get to it, we get to that type of call. And but it is possible, it’s just not easy. You know, and not only do you have to find the proper owner in home, you know, the home you like with the owner that’s willing to let go of a loan, you’d also have to compensate them and have to have some cash for a down payment. There’s a there’s those are the various that’s why I don’t think well, I read the article too. And I saw there was a guide starting to start a tech business to, it’s just going to be really hard. At the end of the day, you got to you got to make it all work and meet all these guidelines. And, and and just I just think it’s going to be a detriment since the amount of money folks will have to bring to get that rate.

Tim Ulbrich 23:26

And that’s a piece, Tony, to be honest, I didn’t think a whole lot about right that what you’re highlighting the example the, you know, $300,000 home that’s not worth $420k, and they’re bringing $120,000 of cash, like you then have to factor in all of this what’s the opportunity cost of bringing a bunch of cash? Not not even a hey do you have it, but what’s the opportunity costs of that $120,000 of cash and not just focus on the rate comparison? Great stuff. Great stuff. Well, let’s wrap up by talking about the pharmacist home loan product that we’ve collaborated in sharing with our community, Tony, now for several years available through First Horizon. You know, I think more than ever, this is an area that we see of interest among pharmacists, even though there’s gonna be less that are out there in the market right now that are buying obviously, we’re gonna have more coming in the future. But as we’ve seen appreciation, as we’ve seen, the home values go over time, obviously that down payment for a new practitioner, especially that first time homebuyer can be a huge barrier. And you know, one of the questions that comes up is, hey, how can I potentially buy a home, get into a home without having to put down a conventional 20% down as I’m trying to focus on student loans, daycare costs, investing all the other goals that we talk about. And so I think that’s why we were so excited about this collaboration several years ago and continue to be excited about the collaboration is what this product can do for for pharmacists in that position. So tell us a little bit more about the pharmacist home loan product who it’s for, minimum credit scores, maximum loan amounts, how the PMI, all of that works.

Tony Umholtz 24:55

Sure, sure. Well, you’re the minimum credit score I’ll start with that is 700. You have to have a 700 credit score. And and if you’re a little below that my team, we have ways to help give ideas and actually help with even giving like a scenario to roll up for quite a few folks to show them what they can get their credit scores to by consolidating debt or paying down a credit card, wherever it might be. The max loan amount right now it’s in most counties is $766,550. But there are areas of the country where we’ll go higher based upon that, that the, you know, the, the counties maximum loan amount. So especially like in California, in and around like Northern Virginia. There’s certain areas where we can actually lend a higher loan amount because the loan sizes are higher, even a $900,000. And there is no PMI, which is the big big driver. And that’s like a car payment for most people when they buy a home, so we can save that with this program. There is no prepayment penalty, which is big too, we need you need that that reassurance that you refinance, if rates drop. The, you know, with the reserves and so forth, there really isn’t a big need for that. There’s even the ability for the seller to give some concessions, which we have to watch that as things go on. But that’s something that, you know, if you want to get some of your closing costs covered, to keep more cash back, that’s something else it’ll allow too. And that’s bigger now, you know, Tim, where I see when a home needs a little bit of cosmetic repair, just that extra $5000-$6000 that the seller is willing to pay or compensate. That can be the the ticket to getting that work done. So those are the things that that that it’ll allow. So there’s a few extra little pieces there. But 700 is a minimum credit score, we do look at debt to income ratios around 43%, not to get too in the weeds, but income to debt ratio. It does take a lower factor for student loans than like a traditional Fannie Mae loan would we do or FHA. So there’s a little more flexibility but yes, pretty pretty much a quick summary.

Tim Ulbrich 27:10

And you may have said it and I didn’t hear it but remind us of a percent down required for a first time homebuyer versus second.

Tony Umholtz 27:19

Good catch Tim. Yeah, so first time homebuyer is 3% down. No PMI. If you’ve owned before, it’s 5% down. That’s the difference.

Tim Ulbrich 27:30

And we have all of this more information on our website. If you go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/ home-loan. We’ll link to that in the show notes. As well, you get more information on the pharmacists home loan product and offering. We also have a form that you can fill out quickly there that will get you connected to Tony and his team to learn more as you’re looking at options. Whether you’re in the Hey, I’m ready to buy now, or I’m thinking about buying in six months, make sure to check out those resources and fill out that form so we can get you connected to Tony and his team. Tony, this has been great as always. Really appreciate your perspective. The other thing I just want to say to our community, if you have a question, you know, whether you’re buying, selling, thinking about buying and selling in 2024, you have a question that you’d like us to tackle. We’re gonna be bringing Tony back on the show here in a couple of months. Just send us an email [email protected]. In the subject line, just put home buying, home selling question, and we’ll make sure to tee that up for Tony on a future episode. So Tony, thanks so much for taking time to come on.

Tony Umholtz 28:24

Hey, thanks for having me. Tim. Great seeing you.

Tim Ulbrich 28:26

You too. Take care.

Tim Ulbrich 28:29

Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacst Podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists in the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% downpayment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers and has no PMI on a 30-year fixed rate mortgage. To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, and to get started with the pre- approval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

Tim Ulbrich 29:12

As we conclude this week’s podcast an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information to the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates, publish them. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 342: Replay – How Two Pharmacists Paid Off $250k of Student Loan Debt

Posted on by YFP Media

Kristen & Nate Hedrick share their journey paying off $250k student loan debt from the motivation to the role of side hustles and real estate investing.

Episode Summary

How do you go about aggressively paying off a $250,000 student loan debt without feeling overwhelmed? To help answer that question, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, is joined by fellow pharmacists Nate Hedrick, PharmD, and Kristen Hedrick, PharmD, BCACP. The Hedricks tell us how they successfully paid off over $250,000 in student loan debt, their motivation for tackling that debt, the pivotal moment that sparked making repayment a priority, and the role a side hustle and real estate investing played in their journey. After a brief history of Kristen’s background, listeners will hear what motivated the couple to take an aggressive stance on their debt repayments, how a life-changing event and one book altered their financial philosophy, and how the pandemic helped them focus on their strategy. Nate and Kristen share their reasons behind paying their debt off now instead of putting their money toward investments and how they found an additional $3,443 per month to make their goal attainable by reducing expenses and increasing their income. This earnest conversation takes us through the possibilities of working full time, raising a family, making investments, and paying off a huge debt, all at the same time. Nate and Kristen talk about their life after paying off this debt and share some advice for pharmacists who may be struggling with a similar debt situation.

About Today’s Guests

Nate and Kristen Hedrick met at Ohio Northern University and were married in 2013. Nate is a pharmacist with Medical Mutual and a real estate agent with Berkshire Hathaway. Kristen is a pharmacist with Bon Secour Mercy Health. Together, they graduated with over $300,000+ in student loan debt. They enjoy visiting National Parks as a family. Today they live in the suburbs of Cleveland, Ohio, with their two daughters, Molly and Lucy, and their rescue dog Lexi.

Key Points from the Episode

Kristen’s background, how she ended up in pharmacy, and what she’s doing now.
What their student loan debt looked like at its peak.
How student debt can creep up and surprise you.
The initial feelings the couple had towards their debt and their plans to pay it off.
What motivated our guests to come up with an aggressive plan for paying back their debt.
How a life-changing event (and a book) in 2016 changed everything.
The global pandemic as a moment of inspiration.
What they had to change in their lives to be able to make the monthly repayments.
Paying off debt now versus investing for the future.
The way the couple used ‘double motivation’ to reconcile an age-old debate.
How our guests were able to raise a child, invest, and pay off a huge debt at the same time.
Nate’s decision to pursue real estate investing and what that meant for their debt repayments.
The approach the couple has taken to make real estate investing work for their family.
Other strategies that helped to pay off the debt aside from cutting expenses and real estate investments.
The benefits of receiving objective, third-party advice.
What life is like now after paying off their massive debt.
How paying off the debt helped Nate make an important career decision.
Kristen’s advice for the pharmacist struggling with debt.
Nate’s parting words of wisdom.

Episode Highlights

“That was the worst that it got and, that same month, for what it’s worth, we had a negative net worth of $306,000. We had about 10k to our name and a bunch of debt to add on to that.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:03:44]

“I had no plan early on until we developed the ‘why’, which was getting our financial house in order so that we could live the way that we wanted to.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:06:23]

“The expenses were the catalyst, and then it was the extra income side of the equation that really boosted everything to actually make it possible.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:13:37]

“Spending more time with the kids without having that student loan debt, and being able to do more things and travel more, it feels like it’s definitely paying off in the end, with making some of those sacrifices.” — Kristen Hedrick, PharmD, BCACP [0:17:16]

“One great thing about real estate investing is even if something happens, you still own a building.” — Kristen Hedrick, PharmD, BCACP [0:22:00]

“Find something that is going to supplement your life that the more effort you put into it, the more reward you get out of it. That is a really great way to set yourself up for success.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:29:32]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here. Thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Kristen and Nate Hedrick to discuss their journey of paying off $250,000 of student loan debt. In this show, we discuss their motivation and why, for aggressively paying down the debt. What the pivot moment was that motivated them to make the debt repayment a priority, how they were able to come up with more than $3,000 per month extra to throw towards the loans, and the role a side hustle and real estate investing played in helping them pay down the debt.

Before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers free only, high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional.

If you’re interested in learning more about working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Nate and Kristen Hedrick to learn how and why they aggressively paid off $250,000 in student loan debt.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:23.4] TU: Kristen and Nate, welcomed to the show.

[0:01:24.7] NH: Hey Tim, good to be here.

[0:01:26.1] KH: Hi.

[0:01:27.0] TU: So Nate, obviously, you’re a frequent flyer. You’re old news so I’m not even going to spend a whole lot of time focusing on you. Many folks have heard you on the podcast before, whether it’s this show, talking about home buying, whether it’s the Real Estate Investing podcast on Saturday mornings, of course, Nate being the cohost of that show.

So, we’re going to focus a little bit more on Kristen’s background as we get started, and we’re going to jump into more about your debt-free journey and how ultimately, you guys were able to knock out $250,000 of debt, and what that has meant to you guys personally, to your family, as well as also the financial goals and plan that you have going forward.

So, before we jump into that debt payoff and that journey, Kristen, let’s start with you. Tell us a little bit more about your background, what drew you into pharmacy, where you went to school and the work that you’re doing now.

[0:02:13.0] KH: Yeah, thanks. I had some extended family members in pharmacy so I just thought it would be a good career path, and looked at the different pharmacy schools and found my way to Ohio Northern in the middle of cornfields, and no cellphone reception and for some reason, that’s where I wanted to go. I think we all know it’s a great campus and community there.

So went to Ohio Northern and that’s where Nate and I met. I completed my residency here in Cleveland, Ohio. Now I work for a large health system doing population health on clinical pharmacy, and following patients with their chronic disease states and helping them with their medicines, and helping in here in Cleveland.

[0:02:50.8] TU: Kristen, it’s funny you mentioned the cellphone reception in Ada Ohio, Ohio Northern University. I remember, I maybe as a P3, P4, just a few years ahead of you guys, but it was a big deal that they added a tower on campus, and I think we got one bar, maybe two bars, but not a whole lot going on in Ada Ohio. I had the chance to go back recently and take Jess and the boys. It was so fun to see campus and really relive some of the memories in that place.

So Nate, tell us about the student loan debt at its peak? What were you guys working with and then, from there, we’ll get into more of some of the motivation and journey of paying it off.

[0:03:26.4] NH: Yeah. So, when we graduated and totaled everything up and, I think it was even a month or two after we graduated that I even wanted to look at it. Because it was the initial plan of, “I just won’t look at it and then it won’t be a problem.” And when we totaled it all up, looking back at our highest count, we were at $316,000 in student loan debt at one point.

So, that was the worst that it got and, that same month, for what it’s worth, we had a negative net worth of $306,000, so we had about 10k to our name and a bunch of debt to add on to that.

[0:03:54.8] TU: I’m curious, did that surprise you guys? One of the stories I often share is that, it’s somewhat embarrassing, but when I was in pharmacy school, it felt a little bit like monopoly money, and it was all of a sudden when I crunch the numbers and I was like, “I owe how much, and how much interest, and what’s my net worth?” It just caught me off-guard, and it shouldn’t have. Were you expecting that or was that number somewhat a surprise at that point?

[0:04:15.4] NH: I agree, it was just totally like made up funds, you know? Every quarter or every semester, I’d have to go and submit for what I needed, and it was the tuition plus a little bit of living expenses, and I would just submit for it and it would get added into this imaginary pile of money somewhere, and I don’t think I ever checked the balance while I was in school, I don’t know why, I don’t know why I would have.

[0:04:35.7] TU: You’re dating yourself Nate, when you talk about quarters by the way. So that ain’t a thing anymore.

[0:04:40.7] NH: Old school, how I work.

[0:04:42.7] TU: Kristen, tell us about the plan that you guys had for the student loans after graduation, after you got married in 2013. How did you feel about the debt overall and then, what was the thought in that moment about how are you going to pay this off?

[0:04:55.7] KH: I think our main thought was it’s overwhelming. It’s just such a large amount that it feels so ambiguous that we thought that we had this plan. We had always wanted to try to pay it off within 10 years. I think I was a little more on track of, “Oh, I want to pay this off in 10 years” and we had some advice from a previous financial advisor that had said, “Oh, it’s just student loan debt, everyone has it, it will be okay.” We changed it to 30 years so we could have minimum payments but always pay extra if we wanted to and, ultimately, we just found that that eventually did not work as well for us.

We needed a more targeted plan to get us on track with what we were doing. We had always been paying the amounts, but I think it was how we were planning to target to actually pay it off. It always felt like this end date that we were never going to get to.

[0:05:44.4] TU: One of the questions I like to ask folks, and we’ll talk more in a little bit about how aggressive you guys were to really get a chunk of this paid off, but I like to understand, what’s the why? What’s the motivation behind it? It’s one of these things, as you mentioned, you can take them out 25, 30 years if you want to. Obviously, you guys made a good decision to be much more aggressive. Tell me more about for the two of you, for your family, why was that important?

[0:06:08.2] NH: It’s funny you say that because I think until I had a why, it wasn’t important. Like I said, I didn’t look at it, I barely wanted to check it. I think at one point in residency, I put myself on the graduated repayment plan and my only motivation was because the payment today is lower and that seems like—that seems better, right?

I had no plan early on, until we developed the ‘why’, which was getting our financial house in order so that we could live the way that we wanted to. Travel, work less, work in the capacities that we wanted to, all the things that have led us to this point. Until I had that in place, there wasn’t a why and it didn’t matter.

[0:06:42.7] TU: Yeah, I think that’s such a good encouragement for folks that are in the midst of their journey, or maybe have wondered into the repayment or for that matter, the financial plan at large, and feel like, “Hey, maybe I’m progressing but not as quickly as I would like to. I’m a little bit stuck.” Really going back to what gets us excited, right?

The topic of money, money is a tool. So, what gets us excited, why do we care bout this topic of money, why do we care about debt repayment, why do we care about saving/investing for the future, why do we care about giving? And then using that as the motivation to drive some of the action and the plan going forward.

So, Nate, what happened in 2016 that was really a motivation to say, “Hey, we’ve got to do something different?”

[0:07:22.0] NH: Yeah, that really is when it changed for us and, again, we’d been paying on them and, every once in a while, we get the idea that, “Hey, we should throw in some extra money because these loans are huge.” We would do it for a couple of months and I feel like we just were inconsistent. But in 2016, we got pregnant with our first child and, again, I tell this story on the podcast several times, but I read Rich Dad Poor Dad and it completely changed my mindset about money and what I wanted to do with money and what I wanted to do with my life and work, and just how I looked at finances.

It’s crazy it took that long to figure that out but I had no formal financial education. We go through pharmacy school, not business school, and until I read that book and changed how I wanted to approach finances in general, again, I didn’t have that why behind it. I didn’t have that motivation, so that’s what really jumpstarted us. I think it was a combination of, “Oh crap, we have a kid on the way and we have to pay for a lot of stuff” and again, this mindset shift that occurred, at least for me.

[0:08:16.1] TU: Kristen, I’m curious. I can just see Nate, because I know him now, I could see him like this totally nerding out over Rich Dad Poor Dad and coming to you with all these ideas and, “What about this, what about that?” Were you equally on fire in that moment or was there different motivations that really led you to say “Hey, we’ve got to do this differently?”

[0:08:34.4] KH: Yeah, I think I had always wanted to pay off the loan. Again, it was just so—it was a large amount that I think I didn’t know how to get there. When Nate said he read Rich Dad Poor Dad, he kept talking about it and talking about it. I think finally, in 2019, I read it, I said, “Oh, this is a really good book, I should have done it sooner”

So, I think we are a really good team together, in trying to work together and get those payments down, and Nate was very much more into it. I think at the time, I was like, I’m growing a human, I’m just going to keep doing what I’m doing, and that was the time that Nate entered real estate. He’s told this story before but, I’m six months pregnant and he goes, “Oh, I think I want to get my real estate license.” This is a time most people would have been getting board certified.

He’s like, “I’m going to go get my real estate license.” He had classes multiple times a week and I’m pregnant, trying to take care of the house and do all these things, getting ready for a baby. So, it paid off in the end and I’m glad that he did it, but I think in the moment there was also that stressful situation for me, but he’s a jack of all trades. He does lots of things and keeps busy, so it’s good.

[0:09:36.0] TU: We’re going to come back to that in a little bit, of what role did that play, Nate, for you, in terms of pursuing that, as you call, a side hustle. It’s much bigger than that, the work that you’re doing now, obviously, but why was that so instrumental, and not only to the numbers but also to some of the mindset and the motivation behind the financial plan and the journey that you were on?

I want to first talk about, though, Nate, walk us through what happened in the pandemic that really allowed you guys to say, “Hey, we’re going to get specific about when we’re going to payoff a big chunk of this debt, what it’s going to take each month.” Talk to us about what happened during the pandemic that led you to the decision around how you were going to pay off a huge portion of that debt.

[0:10:15.5] NH: Yeah, so, like I said, 2016 is where we started getting pretty serious, but even then, it wasn’t truly resolute plan, right? It was just, “Okay, we really got to be focusing on throwing extra money at this” and we did a lot better. But in 2020, we had a month or two in the pandemic and realized, “Okay, we’re not traveling as much, we’re not going to be going out to eat as much, everything shut down, let’s use this time to take the extra money that we’re not spending and really attack that loan.” At one point and, again, we were talking this morning, it was right at the end of the year, we said, “Okay, this thing is not going away, let’s really use next year to just get rid of this loan.”

So, right in December of 2020 and going into the beginning of the New Year, we said, “Let’s figure out a number. What is it that’s going to take to get this loan knocked out at the end of the year? Who cares of the balances right now, we’re going to do it in a year, let’s make sure to get it done.” So, we did some crunching of some numbers and basically said, “Okay, if we can pay everything we’re paying today but also throw an extra $3,443 at the loan every single month, mine will be gone by the end of the year and it will be just knocked out.”

So, that number, I wrote it on the big note card over here and it became like—actually got it here, I’ll grab it. Here you go, so there’s the evidence, right? 3,443. So, that became—I put that everywhere and it became the mantra of like, “If we can do that every single month, this will be gone” and that was such a huge motivator for us.

[0:11:32.8] TU: I don’t want to brush over that, because we’ll talk about it, I mean, that’s a big number, so we’re going to talk about the how of that, but tell us more about how you were able to get to that conclusion and get on the same page with that conclusion? What I’m specifically getting at here is, was it a, “hey budget status quo and we’re going to find ways to grow our income”? Was it a, “we’re going to cut some expenses”? How did you guys work through the details, Kristen, to ultimately say, “Yup, it’s $3,443 and this is how we’re going to do it.”

[0:12:04.5] KH: I think it was a little bit of a combination of both. During the pandemic, we had a little bit more interest. I think also, in doing some real estate investing and had an opportunity, we said, “Okay, do we take this money and do we put it towards real estate or do we pay down the loan more?” and eventually, we decide real estate, but we said, “Hey, like, maybe we should aggressively pay off our loan a little bit more if we are traveling and doing these things.”

So, I think in December, we had a lot of discussion about it and both of us just decided yes, we both want that to be our goal, that starting January 1st, we really start cutting back on what we’re spending. I think, really, from any area that we could, we went thorough our budget, we scrubbed it. We said, “What are we spending money on, what are the subscriptions we have, what can we cut out, what can we save money on?”

“Which of those little purchases can we just stop doing? Which things do we think that we need, can we actually hold off on buying?” and then, certainly, Nate’s side hustle helped with that as well. So, I think it was both a combination of, let’s cut back to really bare minimum spending. We weren’t eating out, we weren’t getting the extra cups of coffee from Starbucks, we weren’t doing the purchases at Target that said, “This is what you need, and this is in the dollar spot.” We just stopped all of that. And Nate worked as hard as he could with his real estate; it really is a motivator to keep putting that extra money towards it as well.

[0:13:22.3] NH: Yeah, I think we quickly realized that trying to find for an extra $3,000 in the budget. We weren’t over spending by three grand every month, that was not it, so it became my challenge to say, “Okay, well, how can I work at this side hustle to really get us the rest of the way?” So, the expenses were the catalyst, and then it was the extra income side of the equation that really boosted everything to actually make it possible.

[0:13:44.7] TU: Yeah. What I love about that is, certainly, cutting expenses, especially short-term, if you’re focused on a goal, you were talking about debt repayment, can be really valuable but it also can be a grind. I mean, it can be soul sucking sometimes, you know?

I think that one of the things I love about the approach that you took is that if you’re moving both sides of the equation, there’s a different level of momentum and mindset that come from that. Maybe the numbers aren’t as big for other folks that are pursuing ideas, but if you can both focus on, “Hey, how can we draw the income and how can we keep the expenses?” you all of a sudden feel like you’re picking up momentum in a significant way, but I don’t want to brush over that number.

$3,443 per month, that’s, for many pharmacist, if we assume, hundred, $120,000 of wage, it’s like, it’s about half of take home pay. I mean, for a lot of folks, we look at that at a monthly basis so that’s certainly commendable, and that’s a big number. Nate, I want to ask the question that I know the listeners are thinking, which is Nate, Kristen, you guys are smart. $3,443, why not invest that money?

Why not put that out so we could see that grow and compound over 20, 30, 40 years? Like, how did you guys reconcile this ongoing debate, which is maybe a little bit of a moot point right now because the administrative forbearance, but this ongoing debate of, “Should I pay down the debt or should I invest for the future?”

[0:15:03.9] NH: Yeah. This is something we struggled with for years. Should we go out and buy another rental property or should we just take this money and throw it at the loan? That’s been the back and forth. Like Kristen was saying, we were evaluating whether we should be doing real estate or paying down the debt.

We challenged ourself to say like, “Can we do both?” and so, for me, again, working and trying to add extra income to the equation. It became a game of, “Okay, if I can make $3,000 a month extra, that’s going to get us there. But if I can make 4,000 or 5,000, that’s another couple of grand I can put at the real estate investing budget.”

So what we have, we had a bucket in LI, in our LI bank account, that was the real estate investing fund and we still have that, we still use it, it is a great way to separate our money. I had to pull from that in any month that I didn’t make enough income to really make the difference, I had to pull out of that. So it was like this, I was afraid to give it up. So it became a challenge to myself and to us.

We need to cut our expenses and raise our income in a way where I can keep padding that account, that bucket, while also meeting our number. It was a double motivator of let’s get rid of the debt and I don’t want to lose sight of the other thing that I’m really passionate about. So, let us find a way to do both.

[0:16:09.8] TU: Kristen, we both know that kids could be expensive. We love them, but it can be very expensive. I think one of the challenges folks have that are raising young family, whether it is debt repayment, whether it is achieving other financial goals, is it’s an expensive phase of life, right?

The data suggested it’s multiples of hundreds of thousands to be able to raise a child, and I am curious of how you guys were able to reconcile this with young ones? I know you guys are so active and intentional as a family now. When you’re looking ahead to say, “Hey, this is a sacrifice now but it is going to allow us to really push our goals forward as a family later in the future.” Tell us about your thoughts on that.

[0:16:46.9] KH: For sure. I remember being pregnant in 2016 and just thinking like, “Oh my gosh, I already feel like we’re living paycheck to paycheck, how are we possibly going to raise a child and afford daycare?” We even joke now, our big expense is mortgage. Childcare and student loan debt was there, our mortgage was the least expensive of all of those.

So yes, certainly having kids is—we always felt like we knew we wanted to have kids and it was just figuring out how do we plan for that. I think, especially now, spending more time with the kids too without having that student loan debt and being able to do more things and travel more, it feels like it’s definitely paying off in the end with making some of those sacrifices or making those adjustments.

Really, that mindset change, I was joking this morning, like you said Tim, it’s mindset changing. In 2021, we actually kept a list of things of, what are things we didn’t buy that we’re going to buy when the student loan is paid, and I was laughing because I’m like, “I still haven’t even bought these things yet.” We just found that maybe we don’t actually need them.

[0:17:44.7] TU: Yeah and some of those behaviors. That’s what I always encourage folks, whatever goal you’re working towards, some of those behaviors you implement in that season will stay with you for the long run. Certainly, there’s a time and place to loosen the reigns a little bit and make sure we’re living a rich life today as well as planning for the future, but we’ll talk about what that looks like for you guys.

But some of those behaviors can stay longer, which I think is really an incredible part of the journey. I want to touch on two things we’ve mentioned I think play a really important role to this journey, which is, number one, that you talk about the side hustle you had working full-time as a pharmacist, as a real estate agent that allowed you to accelerate some of the goals and momentum.

Then the second being the investing in real estate, which much of our community already knows the work that you there on the Real Estate Investing Podcast but talk to us first about the side hustle as a realtor. When did you become a realtor, why did you become a realtor and you know ultimately, how have you been able to balance this while you are also at the time working full-time?” You are raising a young family, tell us about the decision to pursue that work and the role that it played and the debt repayment journey.

[0:18:51.3] NH: Yes, I mentioned that mindset shift that occurred in 2016. I realized I needed something else that was going to be able to supplement my pharmacy career, something where I could put extra effort in and get extra reward from doing that, real estate became a natural fit. Again, it is mentioned a dozen times in Rich Dad Poor Dad and I started reading other things about ways to diversify income streams and, you name it, right?

Real estate was in that conversation. I talked to my father-in-law who has been in real estate for years and he’s like, “You should just get your license.” At the time that felt like, “Well, that’s a different career. I can’t do that” but as I looked into it, it was actually a really reasonable option to supplement that. So I went, like Kristen said, to classes in 2016, got licensed in early 2017 and I assumed that everyone was all of a sudden coming to me, right?

All my family and friends were going to flock to me and say, “Nate, buy and sell me a house” and it was, I think, eight months before I had a real client and actually closed the deal. I mean, it was a long time, and that’s because I wasn’t putting the right amount of effort into it and I wasn’t targeting what I needed to be doing, right? I wasn’t niching down and, again, that’s what led to the creation of real estate RPH and all the work that I do with pharmacists and the real estate community.

All those things progressed down the road to the point where I am at today where, again, now I get to work with a bunch of active clients here in Cleveland. I help people all over the country with our real estate concierge service and it is a really cool way to put my passion for real estate into the world of pharmacy that I started out in and, again, it’s also been a great way for us to supplement our income stream just because it is something where I could put more effort in and get more dollars out as a result from doing that.

[0:20:21.6] TU: Yeah. I want to put a plug in, just so you don’t have to as well, but I think that service has really been so valuable to the community. So, if folks are looking to buy a home, sell a home, looking to buy an investment property and they’re looking for an agent that would be a good fit for them. It is okay if you’re not in the Cleveland area where Nate is, he’s built a network of agents all across the country that have supported other pharmacist.

So, if you go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com, you click on home buying, you’ll see a section for find an agent and from there, you can get connected with Nate further.

Kristen, I want to ask you about the real estate investing side just because Nate talks about this on the podcast every week but I know, because I’ve seen it offline through some of the times I am talking with Nate, you guys are crunching numbers on the property and you’re on the spreadsheets punching numbers, “Is this a good deal, is this not a good deal?”

Tell us more about the vision that you guys have had for real estate investing for you as a family, why that’s been a good fit, and the approach that you’ve taken thus far in your real estate investing journey?

[0:21:17.5] KH: Yeah, I think we always had an interest in real estate investing. You know, my family has some experience with that, like Nate mentioned, my dad is a realtor, so we knew its something we eventually wanted to do. It was just figuring out ,how do we put it in as part of our plan? But when Nate said he was interested, I was all onboard, but I was also that type-A risk averse pharmacist as in, “How do we do this? I have no idea.”

I vividly remember a lot of my commutes, listening to Bigger Pockets, reading a lot of real estate books just to fill my brain with the information I felt that I needed to feel comfortable with real estate investing, and we always knew that we wanted to have those properties. I think one of the biggest things I had learned from Bigger Pockets was, one great thing about real estate investing is even if something happens, you still own a building.

You still have something physical there that you could sell and we just—we always knew we wanted it to be something to supplement with one of our investments.

[0:22:13.4] TU: Yeah, so right now you guys have property, correct me if I am wrong, you’ve got property in Northeast Ohio and then you’ve also got property outside of the area, correct?

[0:22:22.0] NH: Yes, so we’ve got properties here locally and then some up in Michigan as well.

[0:22:25.7] TU: Awesome, love that. And folks can tune in to the Real Estate Investing Podcast for more stories of other pharmacists real estate investors. So, we’ve talked about really three main buckets that were instrumental in paying off this $250,000 of debt and that was, I categorize it as hustle, cutting your expenses that more than $3,000 per month, growing the income through the side hustle, and then also looking at how you’re able to build a real estate investment portfolio. We’re there other strategies that helped you along this way of paying off this debt?

[0:22:55.8] NH: There are little things. I think one that comes to mind for me is that we refinanced that loan, I think four different times, and a lot of that was because we were getting low interest rates every single time, and the other is because we were able to get big bonus. So, if you have been on any of the YFP resources for loan pay down or for loan refinance, you get cash bonuses depending on your loan balance.

A couple of times we would go out and refinance it, wait a couple of months, refinance it again, and we’d get a check and a lower interest rate, it just made a ton of sense. So, that was a little thing that helped quite a lot along the way.

[0:23:24.2] KH: I think another thing that really helped us was working with Tim Baker and the planning team at YFP. They were very much instrumental in guiding us through and helping us make the decisions. You know, I grew up putting my money under a mattress making sure it was nice and crisp and counting it every week. When we started this journey, Nate wasn’t financially savvy until 2016, when he got more into it after reading Rich Dad Poor Dad.

So, I think working together in having a third party objectively look at everything and give us some guidance was really helpful as well.

[0:23:55.9] TU: You don’t have to make Tim’s ego any bigger. No, I’m just kidding. I can see he is listening to that. So the question that I am begging to know the answer to is, you guys were throwing a huge amount of money at this debt. Obviously, at some point, you got that debt paid off and, all of a sudden, you’re not having to make that big of a payment anymore. I often think about this in the context of my journey and I often chalk it up to where did that money go.

Well, more kids, kids got expensive, other things come along the way, but I also know you guys have been really intentional as a family about what are we trying to do in terms of experiences and how we want to be intentional with the resources and the money that you have each month. So, Kristen, talk to us about this journey after the $250,000 of debt, where no longer making this massive monthly payment. What’s happening? What are we doing?

[0:24:43.5] KH: Well, we went to Disney World. I feel like that’s the most appropriate thing, you know? Honestly, in some parts, it feels like it hasn’t changed at all. We still have a lot of that mindset with being frugal and still saving for our future, but also trying to live in the moment, and we have done a lot of life planning as well and things that we want to do. I think we’re working on travelling more.

Like I said, we went to Disney, hopefully some other trips coming up, just being able to spend more time with the kids I think. People with children understand that the first five years before they start school is just hectic and overwhelming. We were just trying to take in all these moments before they head to school officially.

[0:25:20.1] TU: I love that. Right, it goes quick and everyone says that, but it’s real, and I think the intentionality around these experiences and making sure there’s the budget there to support those experiences and to be able to enjoy those moments along the way. Nate, you recently shared publically your decision to go from full-time to part-time work in your pharmacist role. So we’re going to officially call you a pseudo pharmacist now.

[0:25:41.7] NH: That’s fair.

[0:25:42.9] TU: How much of a factor was getting to this point of having this $250,000 of debt paid off, how much of a factor was that and being able to approach that decision and ultimately, feel confident in that decision.

[0:25:55.4] NH: Yeah, it was huge. I mean, I can’t say that when we stared off that was the plan but as we get closer, we realized that it was a possibility, and I looked at the timing and I looked at where we were at and I said, “Look, this is like the last summer before our oldest goes off to kindergarten and then it is just going to get crazier and crazier as time goes on” So I took a step back and said, “Now that this debt is gone, we really can take a step back.”

Kristen has been so supportive and helpful in allowing me to do that, but it’s been really cool because now I can just focus on them for the summer and those extra 20 hours that I found every single week is just, I’m on the kid’s schedule. Like the other day, it was raining in the morning and so we went to the movies and we saw a kid’s movie and then we got out and I was like, “Hey, it’s sunny. Let’s go to the playground” and so we did that.

It was just really cool to be on their schedule rather than some work schedule or something else that I had to do or had to get done. There wasn’t a timeframe anymore and that’s been really cool and again, without that debt being gone, there is no way we could have done that.

[0:26:51.3] TU: Yeah, what I love is I think both of you are such a great example. Where yes, you’ve got a PharmD, yes, you’ve got residency training, yes, you could continue to climb certainly in various clinical roles and there’s the opportunities always there and will be there, but you also have some opportunity for flexibility in those roles and I think sometimes we don’t think creatively enough as pharmacist about how we’re going to use our time each week, and that can change season to season.

I work with other pharmacists who went through a season with young family and others where they pivoted to part-time roles or more flexible schedules and then that changed the game at a later point in time. So I think there’s opportunities to make sure that we are coordinating our work plan with our life plan and with the financial plan as well. Kristen, I’ll start with you and then Nate, if you have other thoughts as well.

I’m someone listening who, maybe I’m a student, and I am like, “Oh my gosh, thanks so much I feel depressed about the journey ahead” or maybe I am in the middle of the debt repayment journey and I just feel like, “When does this going to end?” or I feel like I am spinning my wheels. What advice would you have for pharmacists that are in that debt repayment journey as they’re trying to really navigate that path forward?

[0:27:58.8] KH: Yeah. Not to sound cheesy, but I think a really big player, at least for me, was the YFP planning team. We felt like we had a plan but we weren’t really sure if it was a good plan, and really it was after I had our second child and I was listening to a lot of podcast. I was walking everyday on maternity leave and I was listening to podcast every time I would go for a walk and I was like, “We really need to look at this.”

I feel like we need a more set plan as to what we’re doing, especially since you’re at such an integral point of your life where you want to be able to spend extra time with the kids, but you also may feel like you can’t financially do that, and so I think having that, like I said, that objective third party look at what you two are talking about as a couple can be really, really helpful, and also helped us look at a lot of our other financial plan with the investments.

Like, can we get into more real estate investing, are we contributing enough to our 401(k)? Are we doing things that seem like we should be doing? I think that is really, really been a big impact on us on being able to achieve this.

[0:28:55.0] TU: Nate, any other words of wisdom, advice you’d have to folks that are kind of in the thick of it, if you will?

[0:29:00.6] NH: Yeah, I think for me, again, just for me at least, what were just this mindset shift away from being stuck at, “Okay, I only have—this is my income” right? “If I make a $110,000 a year as a pharmacist, that’s all I’ve got and there is no other opportunities and I have to make it work with that money.” I challenge everybody out there, and there’s a thousand and one different ways to do this, but you should find something where the more effort you put in, the more you get out of it, and it doesn’t have to be money, right?

That can be just time, that can be time with your family, that can be things that you enjoy doing, whatever that is, find something that is going to supplement your life that the more effort you put into it, the more reward you get out of it ,and that is just a really great way to set yourself up for success.

[0:29:40.9] TU: I love that. To reiterate what we talked about a little bit ago, the dollars are one piece of that, but don’t underestimate the momentum that comes from that as well, and that momentum is so important as it relates to the financial plan. You’re related to the debt repayment but I always stick to the other parts of the plan as well. Again guys, congratulations on knocking out this huge chunk of debt.

Really incredible to hear the story and the why behind it and how you’re able to do it, excited for what lies ahead of you guys and thanks for taking time to come on the show.

[0:30:10.5] NH: Thanks Tim, we appreciate it.

[0:30:11.6] KH: Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:30:12.3] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information of the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analysis expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 337: Key Real Estate Trends for Homebuyers in 2024 with Tony Umholtz

Posted on by YFP Media

Join Tony Umholtz from First Horizon Bank as he forecasts 2024 housing market trends and offers expert insights. Sponsored by First Horizon Bank.

Episode Summary

With inflationary pressures historically high and inventory tight, many people are feeling understandably nervous about the housing market as 2023 comes to a close. But what can homeowners and homebuyers expect in 2024? To help us answer this question, we are joined once again by Tony Umholtz, a mortgage loan officer with First Horizon Bank. In this episode, we tap into Tony’s 20-plus years of experience in the industry to get his input on current trends in the housing market, what makes this cycle different from 2008-2009, the correlation between presidential election years and interest rates, and what prospective homebuyers should be doing right now to get ready to buy a home in the new year, plus so much more! For a comprehensive overview of the key market trends that pharmacists and healthcare professionals need to consider when buying a home, be sure to tune in today. Episode sponsored by First Horizon Bank.

About Today’s Guest

Tony Umholtz graduated Cum Laude from the University of South Florida with a B.S. in Finance from the Muma College of Business. He then went on to complete his MBA. While at USF, Tony was part of the inaugural football team in 1997. He earned both Academic and AP All-American Honors during his collegiate career. After college, Tony had the opportunity to sign contracts with several NFL teams including the Tennessee Titans, New York Giants, and the New England Patriots. Being active in the community is also important to Tony. He has served or serves as a board member for several charitable and non-profit organizations including board member for the Salvation Army, FCA Tampa Bay, and the USF National Alumni Association. Having orchestrated over $1.1 billion in lending volume during his career, Tony has consistently been ranked as one of the top mortgage loan officers in the industry by the Scotsman’s Guide, Mortgage Executive magazine, and Mortgage Originator magazine.

Key Points From the Episode

Key market trends for pharmacists and healthcare professionals looking to buy a home.
How this cycle differs from the global economic crisis of 2008.
A reminder to maintain perspective when it comes to affordability in today’s market.
Why you shouldn’t necessarily wait for interest rates to fall before you buy.
Some of the ways that the presidential election might affect mortgage rates.
Tony’s take on the consolidation of lenders and what trends to expect going forward.
Getting on strong financial footing and other tips for preparing to buy a home in 2024.
What you need to know about the National Association of Realtors (NAR) commissions ruling.
Recommendations for getting your pre-approval process started.
Insight into the First Horizon Pharmacist Home Loan.

Episode Highlights

“Every market is different, every challenge is different.” — Tony Umholtz [0:07:43]

“Don’t just buy to buy – Buy if you find a home that suits your family and your needs.” — Tony Umholtz [0:13:57]

“Making sure that, overall, you’re on strong footing financially – is the right thing to do.” — Tony Umholtz [0:23:42]

“Your timeline depends on when you’re looking. If it’s in the summer, May, or June, then maybe you wait until after the new year to get an actual pre-approval. But it’s never too early in my opinion.” — Tony Umholtz [0:29:02]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I welcome back onto the show, Tony Umholtz, a mortgage loan officer with First Horizon Bank. During the show, I tap into Tony’s 20-plus years of experience in the industry to get his input on current trends in the housing market, what makes this cycle different than 2008/2009, his take on the connection between presidential election years and interest rates, and what prospective homebuyers can be doing right now to get ready for buying a home in 2024.

Okay. Let’s hear from today’s sponsor, First Horizon, and then we’ll jump into my interview with Tony Umholtz.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[0:00:41] TU: Does saving 20% for a down payment on a home feel like an uphill battle? It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high student loan debt, meaning that saving 20% for a down payment on a home may take years. We’ve been on a hunt for a solution for pharmacists that are ready to purchase a home loan with a lower down payment and are happy to have found that option with First Horizon.

First Horizon offers a professional home loan option aka doctor or pharmacist home loan that requires a 3% down payment for a single-family home, or townhome for first-time home buyers, has no PMI and offers a 30-year fixed rate mortgage on home loans up to $726,200. The pharmacist home loan is available in all states, except Alaska and Hawaii, and can be used to purchase condos as well. However, rates may be higher and a condo review has to be completed.

To check out the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to start the pre-approval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[EPISODE]

[0:01:52] TU: Tony, welcome back to the show.

[0:01:55] ToU: Hey, thanks for having me, Tim. Good to be here.

[0:01:58] TU: Excited for this conversation. We’re going to pick your brain, tap into your expertise, Tony, on what you’re seeing in terms of current market trends. We’ll talk about what may be ahead in 2024, especially for those that are making the decision or want to make the decision to buy a home early in 2024. And then we’ll wrap up by talking about the pharmacist home loan option as one option that pharmacists may consider as they’re looking at some lending solutions for buying a home.

Let’s talk about current market trends. I think every time we’ve talked on the show in the last year or two, we’ve said something along the lines of, hey, this is a crazy market. This is a weird market. Here we are, end of ’23, it seems like interest rates are starting to stabilize a little bit. But we’re heading into a new year, obviously, market volatility. We’re going into a presidential election year.

What are you seeing right now, Tony, as your boots on the ground working with many other pharmacists and healthcare professionals that are looking to buy a home?

[0:02:53] ToU: It truly is a unique year in a lot of ways. I know we’ve said that before. The one thing about the mortgage industry and the real estate industry is ever-changing. It’s constantly changing, and you’ve got to constantly adapt in our industry. It’s constantly evolving. Some things that are just truly unique right now is obviously interest rates, how quickly they’ve risen. I think it’s the fastest they’ve risen since the 70s. They definitely are meeting some resistance now. It’s not to say they can’t keep climbing higher, but we’ve seen a little bit of a pullback here recently, primarily based on the consumer price index numbers, which have been slowly coming down.

We’re getting to that threshold where lenders, like in the lending world, when we look to sell a loan to Fannie Freddie, or to some dealer, or investor, they don’t see rates going any higher. So they’re not paying a premium for higher coupons, which are rates. You can kind of see that we’re kind of getting towards the top here, but it’s just a truly unique time.

I think there’s other headwinds here. I don’t want to dive too deep yet, but we’ve got to be careful because we may not be out of the woods. I mean, the fiscal stability of the US is another thing we really have to watch, because bonds could be priced, government debt and rates could really be priced based on the solvency of the US government and the debt ceiling. Getting through these debt ceilings and the debt ballooning like it is could be a pressure on rates in the future.

[0:04:22] TU: Yes. One of the things I love, Tony, about your perspective when you come on the show is, just giving us some of the macroeconomic considerations of what’s happening. There’s what we know now, and then there’s what may or may not happen in the future.

One of the things I wanted to ask you about is, knowing the experience you have 20 plus years in the industry, knowing you’ve lived through some of the cycles that we’ve seen,’08, ’09 is the one that kind of jumps out to me that that was a very challenging season for many. Obviously, we saw the impact on real estate, we saw the impact in terms of foreclosures that happened in that period. What makes this cycle different than what you saw back in ’08, ’09?

[0:05:02] ToU: In ’08, ’09, it was such a challenging time, and I got into the business right after the 9/11 pullbacks, was a little bit of a recession there too. But the ’08, ’09 was just devastating, especially in the southeast, in Florida where I’m located. We saw some property values get cut in half. But the dynamics were completely different than they are today. We had an oversupply, overbuilding of homes. We had mass speculation. In the run-up to that, you had clients that could get as many mortgages as they wanted based upon a credit score. There was no fundamentals, there wasn’t a debt-to-income ratio.

There was mass speculation, people building homes based on credit, may not have had even down payments. So it was just it was completely a bubble driven by both speculation and easy money, right? When ’08 and ’09 came, and the crash came, we still were very busy. There was a lot of inventory. Now, granted, a lot of the transactions were short sales. Lots of people wanted to refinance because rates started falling into recession. But the challenge was that a lot of folks would have to come to the table with money to refinance because the loan-to-values didn’t change. The market corrected like that. The government came in and put different policies in place. But it was amazing how the market corrected. Investors would not buy certain things. It happened very, very quickly.

Then, of course, the regulations stepped up. The regulations that were put in place post ’08 and ’09 have really helped make – now, it made lending very tough, and buying a home very difficult, but it’s loosened some since then, but not a lot. So you still have to show a very tight debt-to-income ratio, credit scores are important. All these things are important in buying a home. So it’s made the credit side of the housing market much more healthy.

Now, we basically had from 2010, to 2020, and even 2021, we were underbuilt as a nation, like our population was growing. But we weren’t building enough homes to keep up with that. I mean, so many builders went out of business in that timeframe. I knew really good builders who pretty much – who had been in business for decades before that pretty much shut down for a number of years before they reemerged. We were underbuilt all those years.

Now, we’re in a situation where we don’t have enough inventory, right? We have more demand for housing. This crisis is different in a lot of ways. It’s more of an interest rate-driven crisis, right? It’s driven by interest rates being high and not enough inventory. Those are the two issues we run into today. Every market is different, every challenge is different. That past cycle, in ’08 and ’09, was just a rational exuberance in lending, and then in construction, it was crazy. Everyone was just building to build, there were investors lined up.

I remember clients coming to me, Tim, saying, “I just got my name picked in the lottery,” and basically, all they were going to do is flip that house. They were going to put their number in, and they were going to flip the house when it was done. I can’t count how many of them did that. There was so many of them who did that. A lot of them got burned at the end. They got in there, the home finally was built. Then the property values fell. Now, they did come back over time. Now, we’re in a situation where we just don’t have enough inventory, and that’s the biggest challenge now, and the affordability with rates being high, and the combination –

[0:08:39] TU: I was just thinking about affordability, Tony, as you were talking. Thinking about many of our listeners, especially those that are on the front end of the career, maybe first-time homebuyers, it’s a totally different world out there than when I graduated in 2008. I think about today’s graduates. We now have student loans that are turned back on after a three-plus-year freeze on interest rates and payments. If they have other fixed expenses, like car notes and payments, obviously, interest rates have gone up. Now, we look at what’s happening in mortgage rates. Not just on the interest rate, but also in terms of the home prices and appreciation.

What you could buy if you think about in terms of a monthly payment, which is what a lot of people are looking at in the context of the budget, what you could buy three, four, or five years ago, very different, in terms of what you can buy today, and especially when you factor in not only is the monthly payment only going to go so far but obviously, home prices have gone up in that period as well.

What I’m hearing a lot of anecdotally, Tony is, people that are looking at their interest rate and saying, “Whether it was those that were first-time homebuyers or last decade that maybe they thought this was their starter home, and now they’re looking at, and saying, “I ain’t moving. I’m not trading my 3% rate for an 8% rate.” So they’re kind of staying in the home longer, maybe they’re spending more of their money on remodeling the home, and doing other projects, or spending it elsewhere, instead of moving.

Then, those that maybe are in that phase where they’re nearing retirement, maybe thinking about downsizing, going from a two-story to a one-story home, and they’re looking at the same thing. If we don’t have to, can we wait so that we don’t trade our 3% rate for an 8% rate? I think that’s obviously furthering the issues around supply.

[0:10:21] ToU: Absolutely. Absolutely. There’s no doubt about it. There’s a lot of pent-up demand. I mean, we all feel it. Families are growing. There’s more additions to the family. Even extended family moving in. All these things are happening now, Tim, and it’s pent up. In talking to a couple veteran real estate agents that I know, that had been in the industry 20 plus years, their thoughts to me were – you can get a better deal on a house right now. Yes, it’s expensive, but you’re going to get a much better deal on a home right now in the current climate. And most people see rates coming down in the future when refinancing and affordability comes back.

Definitely a very, very challenging time, obviously. I mean, the one thing that I would say, I don’t want to discredit the student loans and everything that’s going on. But just looking back at the ’08, ’09, 2010 crisis, the job market was not nearly as healthy as it is now. We all have to remember that. We look back at history, and we think we may have it so tough. But I always look back, and my gosh, my dad had it way tougher than me. When my grandfather was alive, and I’d speak to him about what he went through, his perspective hit home, working three jobs. All the things he did, it was just a different time. Yes, things were cheaper, but wages weren’t where they were, and opportunities weren’t where they were.

We look back and I look at ’08, ’09, and the job market was not near as healthy as it is today. So there’s much more opportunity for people right now. It’s an overabundance of opportunity to be employed, but the costs are higher. Part of that’s inflationary, part of that was – we don’t want to get into all the details, but there certainly is an issue with the cost. I do think you’ll see slowly the rates come back to normal. Rates should not be this high. They should be – it should be 5% to 6% on a 30-year. that’s probably where they should be. That changes a lot of numbers in the sevens. I mean, it changes things quickly.

[0:12:29] TU: Let’s talk about that for a moment, Tony, because you said something earlier about pent-up demand. And when you’re talking about 5%, 6% rates, if, which is a big if, but if we see that transition happening, that pent-up demand, there’s going to be an explosion of buyers into the market, which further challenges the supply and demand issue. I think, as we were talking offline before we hit record, I think the tendency, especially of a first-time homebuyer in this type of market is to say, wait, and I want to wait for prices to come down. I want to wait for interest rates to come down.

Obviously, someone’s got to be ready to buy. We don’t want someone to go down that pathway before they’re financially ready. However, does that potential waiting mean there’s more people that are flooding into the space? So maybe rates do come down, but now, you’ve got more competition in the market, and you pay more for the home. I think there’s an interesting balance here, and I just want to get your thoughts on, might there be a place to buy now, and even if rates come down, then there’s an opportunity maybe to refinance in the future?

[0:13:29] ToU: Well, I think that’s exactly what I’m hearing from some of the real estate agents that I know, is that, as soon as – I mean, they all have a lot of buyers that are on the sidelines that they represent. They sense it. As soon as rates come down to a little bit more meaningful level, they’re all going to want to come back in. What does that do? This creates a lot of competition. In the areas where you’ve seen a little bit of a buildup in listings, it’s a good opportunity to get a much better deal on the home.

I will say this though, you don’t just buy to buy. You buy if you find a home that suits your family and your needs. I always say if you’re going to be in a city for five years, it makes sense to buy. It always makes sense to buy versus rent. But if you’re only going to be there for a transitory period, then it probably doesn’t make sense. You want to just continue to rent, but rental costs are likely not falling much if at all, probably will go the other way. The cost of renting versus owning over time will be more.

I would just say, just from what’s been shared with me is, it’s going to get a lot more competition quickly if you wait. I do think we’ll see rates fall. I don’t know how quickly or when, but you can just see it. You can kind of already see it in the market. I don’t want to call it, Tom, but I told a couple of my friends that are CFAs, which are certified financial analysts. I said, “Watch, the 5% on the 10-year treasury will be likely be a peak. So far I’m right. I don’t know [inaudible 0:14:55]. They go, “No, it’s not, Tony. It may not be. This and that.” One of them said, “You might be right, because they’ve rallied down. [Inaudible 0:15:03] now.”

I think, the economy can only take so much, and I think, that’s the issue. I think we’re getting to that point. If you can afford it now, you’ll get a better deal if it’s the right home. I think you’re going to be able to lower the cost of ownership later, I really do.

[0:15:23] TU: One thing I want I want to get your perspective on is, I’m already seeing rumblings out there on social media and the news about the connection between a presidential election year and what historically has happened in the economy here. We’re talking more specifically around mortgage interest rates. Again, disclaimer, we’re not trying to predict what may or may not happen, but I do think it’s just an important piece of information as we head into 2024, which is a presidential election year. Give us your insights, Tony, of what you’ve seen in previous election cycles.

[0:15:52] ToU: You can’t go in saying it’s going to happen, that rates are going to happen. There’s a couple things that I’ve seen, and nothing’s a guarantee, but it’s typically a rocky year for the stock market in an election cycle. Stocks are usually volatile, typically, on the downside.

[0:16:09] TU: In case, we haven’t had enough of that, lately, right?

[0:16:12] ToU: Yes, right. We haven’t had enough of that. But crazy enough, the S&P is up this year, primarily because of big tech names. If you equal-weighted the S&P, it’s not doing well. But on a relative basis, it’s up because of those big tech names. But, typically, the stock market does not do well in an election year. What does that mean? That means, bonds usually rally, because money flows. Although we’ve seen bonds and stocks more correlated than ever this year. But typically, that’s what it represents.

The other piece is just the uncertainty, people rally to bonds. There are some people that say, I don’t necessarily believe this, but they say, “Hey, there’s political pressure by the incumbent party to keep getting rates to come down.” I don’t necessarily believe that, but some do. Typically, you will find that rates will normalize or get a little better in an election year, on average. If you go back through history, it typically does. I don’t think we’re going to see a huge rally, but we could. I mean, it’s interesting, UBS, some of the big brokerage firms are actually calling for – I think UBS calls for 275 basis points and Fed cuts by next fall. That’s huge. I would never predict that.

I think Morgan, Stanley, and Goldman are calling for maybe not that high, but close. So my personal feelings are, the Fed is going to wait till the job’s done. I just think they’re going to do it. They’re going to stick by their mandate and make sure inflation gets down, and it’s going in the right direction. The last report was 3.2%. I think that continues. Then, the other thing is economic decline. We’ve just got to watch the job market, the health of the economy. Walmart had some comments this morning in their earnings, and the stock was really getting hit. It’s around consumer spending. If we start seeing these things decline, that’s going to be a deflationary signal, and that will cause rates to decline.

[0:18:08] TU: Yes. The last thing I wanted to get your insights on as we’re talking about current market trends here, and something you brought up in our discussion as we’re preparing for this episode is, what you’re seeing out there in terms of consolidation of lenders. Which makes sense. It’s been a challenging market. It’s been a challenging period. Is this a space where kind of the top are getting stronger, and the weaker are falling out? But I think that’s important to discuss, as people are making the decision of who they’re working with as a lender. Just to understand what the landscape is and what’s going on right now.

Give us a quick recap of what you’re seeing of consolidation of lenders, and what trends we may expect going into the new year.

[0:18:47] ToU: Yes, sure. I mean, just to be very transparent on the mortgage industry, it’s a very, very low-margin business. At the end of the day, it’s a huge transaction for individuals. But with all the costs involved in origination, and the way the secondary markets, and the hedging work, it’s a super low margin business. It really is one that has to be done on volume and units. A lot of lenders are really struggling right now.

Most lenders that have what’s called a servicing book, that means they’re servicing loans, that can show some profitability. I will say, even some really big lenders are in jeopardy right now, like really big names, possibly even publicly traded. It’s not an easy industry with these margins. A lot of consolidation is going on in the independent mortgage bank. I don’t want to get too technical for the audience, but I just think it’s always good to be as transparent as possible. So independent mortgage banks are non-bank originators. There’s been a lot of consolidation in those groups. They’re acquiring the ones, and sometimes it’s fire sale because they’re losing so much money, that they’re just being gobbled up for their assets, and their technology, and their people, basically. More or less their people. You’re seeing a lot of that right now.

I think it’s going to get worse over the next 60 days, though. It’s going to get real magnified here. I’m hearing about it. There’s some wholesale lenders that are closing up access, but that’s more for the broker community. So if you’re a mortgage broker, and you’ve got a couple lenders you broker to, you’re seeing more wholesalers go wholesale side, lenders that are pulling out of the business. I noticed that a big one was pulling out, they won’t take applications after December 6th. Some of that stuff’s happening, and it can affect people. I mean, I’ve had people tell me in past cycles that, “The funding stopped. My loan was approved, and now they don’t have a loan.” I wouldn’t frighten a lot of folks. I think most lenders are going to be okay, but there are going to be some that don’t make it.

It’s just hard to predict, because the originators themselves don’t know really what’s going on. Like I said, it’s such a low-margin business that the folks operating it, running it don’t always share with their salesforce what’s happening. But I think you will see continued consolidation, and probably some big names that maybe merged to hide the failure. That’s usually what happens. Oh, these two are merging. Well, there’s a reason why they’re merging. It’s going to be – unfortunately, it’s been a tough time.

[0:21:18] TU: With that uplifting message about the current market trends and where we’re at, let’s shift gears and talk about how someone can get themselves ready to buy a home in 2024. Obviously, thinking about the spring season. If we do see those rate reductions, we’re talking about, obviously, the pent-up demand coming into play. I think it’s something I know, Tony, we’ve talked about this on the show, but just from my own personal experience. We often think this is a longer-term decision, and then it just starts going really quickly. I mean, just human behavior is – especially for first-time homebuyer, wanting to get a home, and I’m going to have all my ducks in a row, and we’re going to do this in March or April 2024.

Then all of a sudden, you get on to Zillow, you get into Redfin, you drive by some properties. Next day, you’re talking to a lender, you’re working with a realtor, and all of a sudden, you’ve got an offer. That’s it. These things can move quicker. I think anything that folks can be doing to prepare, and put themselves in a good position to come with a competitive offer, to have a strong lending application. This is the time as we wrap up 2023 to be thinking about that.

From your perspective as a mortgage loan officer, what are some of those key things that individuals should be listening for, especially the first-time homebuyer who maybe hasn’t gone through this process to make sure that they’ve got a good financial house in order as they look at seriously purchasing a home?

[0:22:40] ToU: Sure. I mean, I think the first thing, just make sure you have margin in your life. What I mean by that is, how much are you paying in debts? What’s your income coming in every month? Create that margin, your budget. What do I want to spend on housing, and this property. I think creating that is important. Obviously, paying debts down, keeping your liabilities to a minimum is important. The other thing is just looking at your credit score, making sure your credit score is where you need to be. I think, for a lot of folks, especially first-time homebuyers, it’s the revolving credit. It’s the credit cards, and that balance on their credit card compared to their utilization.

If they have a $10,000 cap on their spending, $10,000 limit, and they run it up to $9,000, that’s going to hurt their credit score. Keeping that down, that ratio down at 50% or below, I find is the best. So if you can keep it down there, that’s going to help your credit score. Just making sure overall, you’re on strong footing financially, I think is the right thing to do. Having some savings for a downpayment if you choose to. We’re obviously going to provide the best we would in any lender, most lenders should, would provide clarity as to the best options for you as an individual, whether it’s a low downpayment option, or one with more down payments. You’ve got to think through that. Do I want to have 20% to put down or 3%? Am I eligible for 3%?

Savings is important, start creating that savings, that savings piece. You have to have enough foreclosing costs as well. There could be, depending on the timing of this and what state you’re in, and I don’t want to touch on this too much now, because it’s very much preliminary. But there was a big ruling on real estate commissions through the NAR.

[0:24:31] TU: I just saw that.

[0:24:32] ToU: It could change – I don’t want to get to, because it could be some back and forth with this.

[0:24:38] TU: Supreme Court decision, right, that happens?

[0:24:40] ToU: Yes, that’s right. But I think two states have already accepted it. I think Missouri and New York I think are implementing it. We’ve just got to watch how buyer commissions are impacted. I think, overall, it’s going to bring – I mean, my opinion, if this goes through, I think it’s going to bring the costs of commissions down tremendously for the end user. Selling a home will be cheaper than it’s been in the past. But my concern is, under representation of buyers, because they’re going to be going straight to the listing agent. They’re not going to understand the schools, the area, and they’re not going to have the representation. That’s my concern.

I also think it’s going to cut maybe 30% of the realtors out of the business immediately. So it’s going to be huge changes in that portion. I think ultimately, it’ll save people money, but it could underrepresent and provide less service to people. So that could create an additional expense for some buyers in some areas. They may have to pay their agent something. That’s typically coming out of the sales price now.

[0:25:49] TU: Tony, for those that have not been following the details of this decision, we’re talking about more in the podcast in the future. But I think what you’re saying is a really important point about potentially the underrepresentation of buyers as this shakes out. Just explain more about why that may happen.

[0:26:04] ToU: Well, if the real estate industry adapts where you have to basically pay a buyer’s agent to represent you directly, it might be tough for a lot of people to do that. Even though you’re ultimately going to save the money on the home purchase because the seller doesn’t have to pay 6%, they’re paying 3%, you’re basically paying whatever portion, difference. I don’t know what it’s going to be in that area. But let’s say it’s 3%. So if you’re paying 3%, seems like a lot. A $200,000 our home, it’s $6,000. So if you’re coming out of pocket with that, that’s additional expense. Sure there’s maybe a way we can roll it into the price somehow. Seller concessions, things like that, but there’s additional costs.

I think a lot of people will say, “I don’t need that. I’m going to go right to – I found this home on Redfin, or I found it on Zillow, I found it online. I’m going to go right to this house.”

[0:26:54] TU: The seller, yes.

[0:26:56] ToU: Well, the seller’s agent, listing agent represents the seller. So they may not give you all the details on the area, the property. Is it the right school system for your kids? Is it the right area? I mean, I just think there’s going to be an underrepresentation for some buyers in certain areas if they don’t engage that buyer’s agent. Just over the years, that’s what I’ve seen the value, is those agents do provide clarity and help on what’s the best area. I mean, if there is value there, and I think, some people may give that up. That’s the concern I have when initially reading through the ruling.

[0:27:31] TU: Great insights. Again, that’s evolving as a story, and new news to me. I hadn’t heard about the couple of states that already adopted it. We’ll keep an eye on this to make sure we’re sharing information as we have it.

Last thing I want to ask you here, Tony, about getting yourself, someone getting themselves ready for 2024 would be about the pre-approval process. If I’m listening to this, and it’s end of 2023, and I’m thinking about buying a home, let’s say in March, April, sometime in the spring. What recommendations would you have in terms of when they should be thinking about starting that pre-approval process?

[0:28:04] ToU: Well, I think just what we touched on earlier, Tim, about making sure your margins and your budget, starting to plan now. For some people, it might make sense to actually engage a lender now, just because if it’s – if you’re talking about closing in March, April, or May, it’s coming faster than you think because you’re going to start looking at homes. You want to know you’re eligible for these houses. The other thing is, you may want to be under contract for 60 days. One thing I’ve always said, if someone has their house listed during the holidays, they are a serious seller. They want to sell that house. They’re having people through the house with your family, and ornaments up, and all that, you know they’re serious, and they’ll probably negotiate more.

It can be a good time to pick up a deal usually, versus the spring when there’s more people. But let’s just say, you’re waiting, and you may want to get pre-approved now if you go under contract in January or in sometime in February, and it’s a 60-day close or 45-day close. Your timeline I think depends on when you’re looking. If it’s in the summer, or May, or June, then maybe you wait until after the new year to get an actual pre-approval. But it’s never too early in my opinion, especially if you might have a credit issue because lenders have ways to like – we have a system where we can run simulations of what their credit could be. They pay certain things off. That’s been really valuable, not only in getting people approved, but also getting the better interest rates and better programs, getting someone from maybe 660 credit score to a 700, or 700 to 740. It adds a lot of value and I think it can take some time. That’s where I think pre-approvals are important to get ahead of it.

[0:29:49] TU: Let’s wrap up here by talking about the importance of knowing your lending options. Specifically, I want to talk about the pharmacist’s home loan product that you all offer at First Horizon. We talked about on a previous episode, 285, which was cracking the code on homebuying loan options. We’ll link to that in the show notes. We covered the variety of options that are out there from FHA, to VA, to conventional, to the pharmacist home loan.

One of things you already said, I think it’s really important point to reiterate, which is, when working with a lender, ideally, they’re helping you kind of understand what those different options are. To see based on interest rates, based on your credit score, based on cash available, what’s the loan option that makes the most sense for you? It might be for some, it’s an FHA loan, and they’re not thinking that that would be the best option. Or it might be a conventional, or perhaps it is the pharmacist home loan products.

Tell us about that offering through First Horizon. I think many people, if this is new terminology, they might have heard of doctor loans that are out there. Many of those lenders may exclude pharmacists or they might be available in certain states. One of the reasons we’ve been partnering with you guys for four-plus years now is the national reach. We know we’ve got a national audience that’s out there. Who is this product for, and what is the makeup of the product?

[0:31:05] ToU: Sure. The product that we offer to pharmacists, of course, you have to be a practicing pharmacist. You have to have to be in the field, and be actively working in the field to be eligible. The program really is not just for first-time homebuyers. This could be your third or fourth home. It just changes with the downpayment. If you’re a first-time homebuyer, I know we’ve discussed this in the past, but I’ll repeat it. It’s 3% down if you’re a first-time homebuyer. It’s 5% down if you’ve owned a home in the past, so those would be the two differences. There is no mortgage insurance. That’s a really big benefit. We really do not have a reserve requirement either, which is fairly significant as well.

There’s a minimum credit score of 700 on the product. Obviously, the advantages are not putting a lot of money down into the house, and having no MI I think is the big advantage. We’ve had a lot of folks who, especially over the last four years, who have taken advantage of this loan and put 3% or 5% down. Obviously, the values of homes have gone up, and they’ve really been able to get great investment in your money, get great return on their money. It’s been a really good program. But like we mentioned earlier about the market constantly changing, and the mortgage market evolving.

The secondary market, and how things have worked with trading, it was interesting. For some clients, their credit scores may not be really, really high, but it’s still good enough for the pharmacist product. Sometimes FHA loans have been unbelievably good, like the margin was so much better on the 30-year fixed pricing. We’ve been able to offer that. That wasn’t the case two years ago or a year ago.

We try to just look at what the market is offering us because sometimes, these other programs can be better if the rate is significantly lower. Anyway, that would be how we look at things. Obviously, the pharmacist products, the first thing we look at, if you’re a pharmacist, it’s the first thing we’re going to look at, but we will compare. Everyone’s situation is unique, and that’s why we will look at other options too. There’s plenty of other options that we carry.

[0:33:13] TU: The maximum loan amount on that right now is what, Tony?

[0:33:17] ToU: It’s 726,200, but I believe I’m about 90% certain, after Thanksgiving, traditionally this will come through. But I think we’ll be at 750 or a little higher by next year. I’m pretty sure it will happen. That’ll be the max loan amount. That’s the max the loan amount you can go to.

[0:33:34] TU: We’ll wait to update the website, so we’ll leave it.

[0:33:37] ToU: Yes, I would wait. If you think about that, someone’s looking to buy next year, potentially, you could buy $800,000 home with $50,000 down or less. That’s pretty good with no MI. That’s going to be on the table here pretty soon, I think.

[0:33:54] TU: So just to recap the highlights and we’ve got more information on the website, if you go to, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. We’ll link to that in the show notes as well. You can see all this information and some additional resources. But 3% down for first-time homebuyers, 5% down if it’s not a first-time homebuyer, no mortgage insurance, 30-year fixed rate option, maximum loan amount of 726,200, potentially going up, and a minimum credit score of 700, available nationwide except in Alaska and Hawaii.

Great option for folks be considering. Again, the point you’re making is such a good one that, when working with a lender, you want to feel confident that they are looking at all the options that are out there. You’ve highlighted well that that can change, will change based on what’s happening in the economy and with the different products that are available.

Tony, as always this has been awesome. Really appreciate your insights for our community. If folks want to get connected with you and again, learn more about that offering, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. You can click on Get Started, that will provide a quick questionnaire, and that will get you in touch with Tony and his team. So Tony, thanks so much.

[0:35:06] ToU: Thanks, Tim. It’s great being here with you.

[0:35:09] TU: Absolutely. Happy Thanksgiving. Take care.

[0:35:11] ToU: You too.

[END OF EPISODE]

[0:35:12] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists in the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% down payment for a single-family home, or townhome for first-time home buyers and has no PMI on a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage.

To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to get started with the pre-approval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:35:56] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information on the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment, or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 323: 5 Tips for Selling Your Home

Posted on by Tim U

Nate Hedrick, aka The Real Estate RPh, joins the show to talk about 5 tips for selling your home – valuable information for buyers and sellers alike!

Episode Summary

Most of our real-estate episodes to date have covered the topic of buying a home, but today we’re putting ourselves in the shoes of the seller. If you think this episode isn’t for you because you’re only interested in buying a home, think again! Being able to see things from a seller’s perspective will add huge value to your home-buying journey. Today’s guest is Nate Hedrick, a pharmacist, and the founder of Real Estate RPH. It’s a seller’s market at the moment and he is here to share five top tips for selling your home for its maximum value. From the benefits of enlisting the help of an agent to getting to grips with price-setting strategies and understanding buyer versus seller costs, this conversation will equip you with the tools you need to navigate current chaotic housing market with confidence!

Key Points From the Episode

Introducing today’s guest, Nate Hedrick
An overview of Nate’s recent interview with first-time home buyers, Neal and Katie Fox.
Why this episode will benefit you if you are a home-buyer or a home-seller.
An overview of the current market from Nate’s local perspective.
Two of the main pain points for newly practicing pharmacists.
Costs you can expect to incur when selling a home with the help of an estate agent.
The benefits of enlisting an agent to help you sell your home.
How most people choose an agent.
The difference between an excellent and a mediocre agent.
Examples of how good agents can maximize value for their clients.
Benefits of depersonalizing the home.
Different types of pricing strategies that can be used when selling a home.
How the appraisal process should work.
An overview of buyer costs versus seller costs.
Understanding the concept of seller’s credit and the problems that can arise when this strategy is used.

Episode Highlights

“If you’re a first-time home buyer, you have no idea what it’s like to sell a home, right? You don’t have an idea what it’s like to buy a home. Being able to put yourself in somebody else’s shoes as you’re going through that journey, it can give you some perspective and it can be really helpful.” — Nate Hedrick [0:03:23]

“It’s still a seller’s market. We have a lot of people who are sitting on three and a half percent or lower interest rate loans that they refinanced over the last three or four years, and they don’t want to move if they don’t have to.” — Nate Hedrick [0:04:19]

“The list price of a home is completely made up. The market value of the home is the number you want to determine.” — Nate Hedrick [0:25:15]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody, Tim Ulbrich here. Thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast for each weekly strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I welcome back onto the show a familiar voice Nate Hedrick at the Real Estate RPH and co-host of the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast. We discuss five tips for selling your home, helpful information whether you’re looking to sell now or in the future, and even for those looking to buy a home to gain some insights and understandings to what the seller is going through.

All right, let’s hear from today’s sponsor, Real Estate RPH, and then we’ll jump into my interview with Nate.

[MESSAGE]

[0:00:38] TU: Are you planning to buy a home in the next year or two? With the state of current home prices and mortgage rates, the home-buying process can feel overwhelming. But what if you could leverage the knowledge and ongoing support of someone who has worked with dozens of other pharmacists through their home-buying journey all at no cost to you?

I’m talking about Nate Hedrick at the Real Estate RPH. Nate is a pharmacist who has been a partner of YFP for many years now and offers a home-buying concierge service that can help you find a high-quality agent in your area and support you throughout the entire process. Head on over to realestaterph.com or click on the link in the show notes to schedule your free 30-minute jumpstart planning session with Nate.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:24] TU: Nate, welcome back to the show.

[0:01:25] NH: Hey, Tim, always great to be here.

[0:01:27] TU: Well, I’m excited to be back in the host seat. Not too long ago on the podcast episode 316, you interview Neal and Katie Fox about their journey and lessons learned as first-time home buyers. What a neat episode that was. Just to recap for our listeners that maybe haven’t heard that episode already, tell us about that interview and the story with Neal and Katie.

[0:01:47] NH: Yeah. Neal and Katie were just an awesome couple that I got a chance to work with as home buying concierge clients. We got them hooked up with an agent, helped them buy their first home together. It was just really cool to be able to sit down and talk to them about what it’s really like to buy a home in this market. We went through everything from A to B or A to Z and just got their perspective on it, right? Somebody that doesn’t have experience, right?

I sometimes forget how long I’ve been doing this. There’s things that I don’t even think about anymore, as a first-time home buyer. So, to actually talk to first-time home buyers and see where their pitfalls and strategies came from, that was just, it was fun. It was really cool to talk to them.

[0:02:24] TU: Yeah. Great interview. They had some really interesting tidbits, lessons learned, things on financing, importance of working with an agent, who you’re working with and the value of that relationship. We’ll link to that episode in the show notes if folks haven’t already heard it. Today, Nate, we’re going to be talking about a topic we haven’t really covered in depth before. I’ve lost track. You’ve been on the show at least 10 times now, maybe more, obviously co-host of the Real Estate Investing Podcast. We talk so often about buying a home, but we haven’t really talked about selling a home.

Now, for those that are in the home buying journey and are listening to this and saying, “All right, I’m turning this off, they’re talking about selling a home, that’s not applicable,” hold on, right? Because I think as you and I talked about before the show, as a buyer, if you can really understand some of these tips and components as it relates to the seller, that is going to be helpful to you and the buying journey as well.

[0:03:17] NH: Yeah, 100%. Understanding that other side where the other person’s coming from, it’s really difficult, especially if you’re a first-time home buyer, you have no idea what it’s like to sell a home, right? You don’t have an idea what it’s like to buy a home. So, being able to put yourself in somebody else’s shoes as you’re going through that journey, it can give you some perspective and it can be really helpful.

[0:03:35] TU: Now, before we jump into five tips for those that are selling a home, and again, the relevance of that to buyers as well, important to talk about context, right? We’re recording this episode in summer, 2023, wild times just in terms of where the market’s at, what’s happening with interest rates, where the economy is at. I do think that context is really important to understand things like leverage, right? As a seller or as a buyer. Nate, just give us a quick update knowing that every market is, of course, different, but you have a unique perspective working with pharmacists and agents all across the country. What are you seeing right now?

[0:04:07] NH: Yeah. Obviously, real estate is local, right? What I tell you that we’re seeing may not be exactly applicable in your area, but broadly what we’re seeing is low inventory, right? It’s still a seller’s market. We have a lot of people who are sitting on three and a half percent or lower interest rate loans that they refinanced over the last three or four years, and they don’t want to move if they don’t have to, right?

You’ve got people that want to buy, as there always are, but people that aren’t really ready to sell their home yet. So, that’s causing a lot of low inventory. We’re seeing high prices still and just things are moving quickly. It’s not as crazy as it was in 2021 and early 22, but it’s still an interesting and difficult time if you’re a buyer and a pretty good time if you’re a seller in most parts, because you can typically move your houses pretty quickly.

[0:04:54] TU: Yeah. It’s really interesting. Jess and I often talk about this. We love our home, right? But it’s just a natural point of conversation where it’s like, “Well, what about moving here? What about doing this?” When you look at what interest rates are doing right now, not only what our interest rate is, refinance close to three, but seeing what you’re going to be buying at, but then also just the elevated prices, because of the supply and demand, it’s a double whammy effect, right?

[0:05:17] NH: Yeah.

[0:05:18] TU: For existing home buyers to give up that loan, to take on a new higher interest rate loan, as well as a higher mortgage on price of the home. So, that makes sense, what’s happening there on the supply side. Then to be frank, Nate, I’m feeling for the first-time home buyers right now, right? Many of them we know in our community are also facing significant student loan debt. Here we are now ready to have those payments turned back on.

I think that’s a topic we just aren’t talking enough about. We know from our community, student loans and home buying are for many people, two of the top pain points, right, especially for that new practitioner group. I think when we look at the rising home prices, rising interest rates, student loan, payments turning back on. We’re looking at more challenges that I think are being added to this. Doesn’t mean it’s impossible, right? Doesn’t mean it’s a goal that can’t be attained, but it means we’ve got to be a little bit more diligent in the planning process to make sure we’re looking at the broader financial plan.

[0:06:13] NH: Yeah. I appreciate you keeping it at the forefront, because I know if it were me 10 years ago, just starting out, dealing with loans, if they were on pause, I don’t know, it’d be in that bucket of, “Well, I’ll figure that out when it becomes a problem,” right? I 100% know that would have been me 10 years ago. Talking about it is super important, because don’t wait to figure it out, start figuring it out now, before it really becomes a problem.

[0:06:36] TU: Yeah. This is where the strategy, we’re not going to dig into student loan strategy right now, we’ve done that many times on the show before, but this is where that strategy part becomes really important, because not all student loan repayment plans are created equal in terms of the impact they have on monthly cash flow. For example, someone who’s pursuing loan forgiveness versus someone who’s doing an aggressive debt repayment. Those are going to have very different impacts on the budget, which obviously is going to change also how much money is available, discretionary income available, potentially for a home purchase.

Another example yet of where these puzzle pieces need to come together. Let’s talk Nate, five tips for those that are selling a home. Number one, not all agents are created equal. I’ve experienced this on my own home-buying journey. Not only that, but also there’s the using an agent versus not using an agent for those that are thinking about potentially a for sale by owner. Talk to us about tips as it relates to the agent and why that piece is so important.

[0:07:31] NH: Yeah. I think something you mentioned there about the first, the for sale by owner versus an agent. I think a lot of people are, they look at the market, they look at how, “easy” it is to sell a home. The first thought becomes, “Well, can I just do this myself? Couldn’t I just kick the agent out of the whole process, save a ton of money on commission?” Truthfully, it can be quite a lot, right? Typical way the commission structure works to peek behind the curtain, right, is that it’s going to be about five to 6%, depending on the agent that you work with, is what the seller is going to pay toward the commission. That, that seller paid commission is what goes to both the buyers and the seller’s agent.

It’s usually split 50-50. So, if we say 6%, you’re talking about 3% for the buyer’s agent, 3% for the seller’s agent. That can be $18,000 if you’re talking about a $300,000 home, which is a huge chunk of change. I think it’s natural for people to think, “Man, I can just do this myself. Why bother? I don’t want to pay that $18,000.” But there’s a couple of pieces I think that I think what people should realize before just jumping to that route. Only about 10% of homes in America are sold for sale by owner.

Again, there’s a reason for that. One of the stats that I like to throw out there, and it’s biased, so I’ll lead with that, but that is that according to the National Association of Realtors, and this is looking at 2021, for sale by owner homes sold for about, on average, $225,000 in that year. The typical agent-assisted home sale was about $330,000. About $100,000 difference. Now again, I think that’s biased. I think a lot of four sell by owners tend to being like friends and family. They bring the prices down intentionally in some of those cases right or wrong. I think that there’s some bias to that number.

Let’s say that $100,000 number, let’s just cut it in a fourth, right? Let’s quarter it to $25,000. If you have a $300,000 home, that $25,000 difference is more than the 18 grand we talked about in terms of commission sales. I still think there’s a lot of value there. The typical agent is going to bring a lot more value to the actual home and getting it for the right price, just on a dollar-for-dollar basis, even if again, we take that number and cut it in the fourth. I think that’s an important number to look at and to think about is that the agent is going to be able to bring more value or get more value out of the home on average than you might as a for sale by owner.

Then the natural next question to that becomes, “Well, why? What are they doing that’s different?” I think a lot of it comes down to just their experience and their ability to price the home appropriately and get the maximum value there. One of the things that an agent’s going to do if you are ready to sell a home, and we can dive into more of these details in a moment, but they’re going to come in and they’re going to help figure out, “Here’s where I think your house sits today. Here are some things that you could change to improve that value, whether it’s curb appeal or decluttering or whatever. Then here’s where I think the market value is on that property.”

Once you know market value, then you can start to come up with strategies for how to price that home. That’s where an agent’s really going to come in, right? Let’s say we were going to price it 10,000 under asking or under market value rather to try to generate a lot of business or let’s say we’re going to price it right at market value and try to get the most dollars we can for it right up front. There are a lot of different things that go into that strategy that I think an agent brings to the table that a typical home seller might just not have access to that information or be aware of.

Then if you go beyond the dollar amount, I think that that’s where the agent comes in with paperwork and helping with all the legal paperwork. There’s a lot of legality that goes into home sales and a lot of this a title agent or a good lawyer can help you with, but the agent takes all the guesswork out of that, right? Everything’s been predetermined, pre-established by a broker. It’s all going to be put in front of you in the way that it needs to be. There’s a lot of value that can be created from that.

[0:11:15] TU: Yeah. The other thing too here Nate, great points, that stands out to me would just be peace of mind knowing that there’s coordination, assuming, and we’ll talk here in a moment about why all agents are not created equal here. We’re talking about agent versus for sale by owner. Peace of mind assuming you’ve got the right person on your team, right? That’s coordinating all of these, but also time. I’ve gone down this pathway and I don’t think I would do it again, to be frank.

I think even though it was someone within the neighborhood and it was a pretty easy process, there were a lot of those questions about pricing it appropriately and is this fair, right? Now, you’re not dealing with, what does the market say the home’s worth. But it gets more emotional when it’s just one party with another party, right? Is this fair between two parties? But then just the time and the coordination, the title, and there’s this lingering feeling of like, is everything being done correctly and coordinated?

I remember, maybe part of that is just my type A personality a little bit, as well, but this is a podcast of busy healthcare professionals, like I think they can appreciate, especially if the ROI is there as you mentioned, how important it could be to really make sure that you’ve got someone in your corner. Now, that’s an obvious one, I think for many would be the agent versus the for sale by owner, especially considering folks are busy.

Again, not all agents are created equal. I think this is interesting, right? We talk about this a lot on the show about financial planners. I think we’ve done a really good job highlighting how the term financial planner in and of itself, doesn’t mean a whole lot and how there’s so much variance between planners in terms of credentials, and experience, and how they charge, and transparency. I don’t think we give the same diligence to real estate agents. I don’t know why, but the more I started to think about this, I’m like, “Well, this is really interesting. Experience matters a lot.”

Somebody understanding my local market matters. Connections, right? Someone who can, you shared before we hit record about an example of a deal you’re working on where some pretty simple work needed to be done and you’re able to line up a contractor and move that forward. That matters, those relationships. Talk to us about why the right agent matters and how do people vet this? How do they find that?

[0:13:28] NH: Yeah. It’s certainly tricky. I think what most people do, I’ll tell you what most people do and I’ll tell you what I’d recommend, right? What most people focus on is the commission, right? They want to find out how they can get this on for as cheap as possible as –

[0:13:39] TU: Like an interest rate on a mortgage, right?

[0:13:41] NH: Right. Exactly. Yeah. “I want the guy that’s five and a half percent.” Now they got it 6%, right? People focus heavily on that. Again, in the grand scheme of things, that 1% difference that you might find across the market, that’s not where your focus should be, but that’s what a lot of people like to focus on. The other thing to focus on is when you do a listing presentation, when I present to a seller and say, “Look, this is what I’m going to do for you.” They’re really focused on the number. “Well, what do you think you can sell my house for?”

I’ll tell you, there’s only so much an agent truly can do with the home that’s in front of them, right? The same home, the same parameters, different agents are not going to be able to sell that house for more, just being upfront. What a good agent’s going to do is come in and tell you, “Here’s how to maximize the value of your home. Here’s how I can sell it for more.” Not, “Here’s the same house as the next agent’s going to be selling, we’re not changing anything.” They’re not going to ink more value out of that house just by being a “better agent,” right?

What a great agent it’s going to do is come in and say, “Look, if you declutter this a little bit, if I let you borrow this storage unit that I have specifically for my sellers, we get a couple of these pieces of extra furniture out of here. We take down some of the pictures.” We hear the things that we’re going to do, that’s how you’re going to maximize value.

[0:14:52] TU: Yeah.

[0:14:53] NH: When I’m talking to a client and what I recommend everybody do out there, if you’re interviewing a seller’s agent, talk about, “What are the things that you’re going to do to maximize the value of my home?” Not, “How can you sell this for as much money as possible?” Those are closely related to the same question, but they’re not the same question.

[0:15:10] TU: Yeah. Future episodes, I just took a note, we should do a future episode on questions that you should ask right when hiring an agent. I think that’s a really good, really good one to consider. In your experience, working with other agents, but also in your own experiences as a realtor selling homes, what are some ways that you’ve either stood out? I mean, experience, let’s say that’s a given or that you see another agent stand out.

[0:15:32] NH: Yeah. So, I think there are a lot of big-ticket things that people stand out with that are attention grabbers. The one I mentioned was the storage unit. I’ve seen agents that will offer those pods. They’ll say, “Look, if you sell with me, I will give you a pod to put all your extra furniture in. Just put that in storage for a while, while we sell the home.” There’s definitely some value to that. I’ve seen agents offer staging, especially if the home is vacant, or if you’re in the process of moving out and things are hodgepodge, you can have the home staged and that can be really advantageous, and some agents will offer that as a big incentive.

I’ve also seen a lot of – this is pretty common on billboards with big-ticket, high-volume agents, where they’ll offer a guarantee, right? We’ll list your home and if it doesn’t sell in a month, then we guarantee, we’ll buy it from you. There are a lot of stipulations to that, but I’ve seen that as a big-ticket thing.

I’ll tell you where I try to offer value. Again, these are things that I might pepper in where it makes sense. Most sellers actually don’t need a lot of those services quite frankly. I try to just make things as easy as possible. You mentioned earlier, if you’re a busy working professional, if you want to hire an agent, you’re doing so because you want to take all the guesswork out of it and all the legwork out of it, right? It should be as painless as it possibly can be. That’s what I try to come in and show them how I’m going to be able to do that. That’s what I encourage other sellers to look for when you’re talking to a good agent.

[0:16:53] TU: Yeah. I think, Nate, the huge advantage that you have, the relationship piece, asking good questions, you’re a pharmacist that has gone down the path of a first-time home buyer, you’ve obviously worked with many individuals, you understand what it means to buy a home when you have student loans and the considerations. Certainly, it’s not financial planning, but it’s being able to ask good questions that really help people self-reflect and understand and not just like, “Yup, I’m ready to sell your home,” right? Whether or not that’s maybe in their best interest.

[0:17:25] NH: Even if it’s something as simple as, “Hey, you want to sell your home. What’s more important? Getting every single dollar we can out of it, or closing in the next 30 or 40 days so that we can move into the next place?” Or whatever.

[0:17:37] TU: It’s a goal.

[0:17:38] NH: Just a simple question about, what’s the goal of getting this home sold, right? Is it just to move it as quickly as possible, or is it to maximize value and starting from there?

[0:17:47] TU: Great stuff. That’s number one on our five tips for selling a home. Not all agents are created equal. Number two, you alluded to this a little bit already, but I want to dig deeper. That’s really, in terms of determining what is or not worth it, right? Upgrades, repairs, boosting curb appeal, staging the home, right? Maximizing the value of what someone may be able to get out of the home is what you mentioned just a few moments ago. What tips do you have here for sellers?

[0:18:11] NH: Yeah. This is something where a good agent can really make themselves worth it, right? Because there is a ton of stuff. I look around my house today and think like, “Man, if I was going to sell it, I have to fix that and I gotta paint that.” There quickly becomes this list of stuff that you could do before selling a house. What’s the ROI on that? A great agent is going to know the local market, is going to know the comparable properties that have sold recently and is going to be able to see what those high-value items are that you should focus on and what those low-value negative ROI things are that you could just ignore, right?

There’s always going to be stuff to fix on a house. The trick is finding the things that you can do now that are going to be not very labor intensive and we’re going to maximize the overall value and the speed with which we can sell that property. It’s a myriad of items. It varies based on the home itself. Generally speaking, you’re looking for things where, “If I don’t fix this, is it going to prevent somebody from making an offer?” That’s a really common one. Let’s say, the roof is actively leaking. A lot of people are not going to be interested in jumping into a $10,000 or $20,000 fix right off the bat. Those are things that are obvious that, “Hey, if I fix this, yeah, my ROI might not be huge, but it’s going to make people want to offer whereas, they may have not previously.” Thinking about things like that.

Then also, thinking about things like, hey, if other homes in the area that have a deck, for example, a back patio, or a deck, all of the deck houses are selling twice as fast as all the houses that don’t have a deck, right? You’re in a very similar community. That might be something that’s worthwhile putting in, right? Especially if you’ve got a sliding door already out there and it’s ready to go, it’s just begging for a deck. That might be an easy ROI item that you could tack on. It’s going to be high cost, but it might make that home sell for that much more. It’s those things that a really good agent’s going to be able to jump in and give you advice on to make sure that you can maximize that value.

[0:20:05] TU: Yeah, and that’s a great example with the deck, right? Because I think about, again, if we put ourselves in the buyer’s shoes, all of a sudden, I see the home as having a new outdoor living space. Maybe it’s not all the way there, but you’re providing vision, right? For somebody to come in and say, “Whoa. Wow. I’ve got maybe a smaller square footage home, or maybe it doesn’t have all the bells and whistles that I wanted, but I can really see how I could use this space differently.” Great insights there. I think that’s just so important.

Again, putting yourself in the buyer’s shoes, the roof example, the deck example, especially first-time home buyers are not coming with a bunch of cash sitting in the bank to do some of these things, right? Minor upgrades, minor improvements. But things that you can do. Obviously, the question, “Is there an ROI there or not?” is really going to be helpful to those buyers. I also think, Nate, be curious to hear your perspective here. Where you’re at in terms of price point of the neighborhood, I think could be really important here on potential ROI, right?

If I am the biggest house, the most expensive house in the neighborhood already, and I add a $10,000 deck, hoping I can raise the price $20,000, maybe not as much if on the low end. Is that fair?

[0:21:16] NH: Yeah. It’s spot on, right? Again, that’s where a good agent is going to be able to come in and say, “Look, here are the comparable properties that have sold. This is what people are going to be looking at.” Or better yet, one of my favorite things to do is to look at is what else is on the market today. If I’ve got a $300,000 home and there are three other $300,000 homes for sale in the same community, how am I differentiating? I don’t need to undercut them by $5,000 and just be the cheapest game in town, but I also can’t be $30,000 more and expect to be the first one that everybody buys, right? Unless, there’s some real big value item that I’m bringing and it’s different than those other homes. That’s where an agent can come in and really try to help that out.

[0:21:52] TU: Great stuff. Number three on our list, why it matters to depersonalize, or neutralize the home. This gets a little bit to what we’re talking about, wanting the buyer to really have a vision of their own. I know this is something that you hear all the time, you read about, but as a buyer, myself going through the process twice, I was amazed at how often this wasn’t done. Tell us about why this is important and what this may look like.

[0:22:16] NH: Yeah. I think everybody gets – you get really comfortable in your own home, right? You know what you like. You’re used to it. You think it’s perfect, because you live there. Why wouldn’t you, right? It’s a natural thing to do. I think it’s easy to miss some of the stuff that might come across to a buyer as making it feel not welcoming. That might be something that to you, again, is very welcoming. Families, family photos, all the furniture that you love, the beat-up chair that you love to sit in every night before going to bed, right? That’s your spot. I get it.

But somebody else walking in might look at that and go, “Oh, my God. That’s been scratched by the cat for 20 years. This looks horrible.” You have to be able to put perspective on that, as if you were a total neutral party walking into that home and trying to envision it as the place they want to live. You have to be able to reset that. One of the ways that I encourage sellers to do that is to really try to neutralize things. Like you mentioned, neutralize the home to where they can see that it’s someone living there, it’s comfortable, it’s a place they want to be, but it doesn’t feel like it’s not their space yet. They can start to envision themselves in that space because it’s not so personalized, or so specific to one individual.

[0:23:27] TU: Yeah. I think of things like paint and photos and odors in the home, right? Good, bad, indifferent. You gave some great examples, like the chair that we like to sit on at night. Some of these, what’s great about this is it’s not wildly expensive, typically, right? Neutralizing paint colors. I have vivid memories of going into houses where it was red carpet, lime green walls, and it’s like, man, that is such an easy – or dark paint that made the room look smaller. Miniscule changes in light fixtures and other things that can really open up a room and make it look bigger.

[0:24:02] NH: You mentioned smells too, like you hit the nail on the head with things that are unique can be the problem, right? Maybe it’s an air freshener you have that you love, and it’s like tropical oasis or whatever.

[0:24:11] TU: In your face.

[0:24:12] NH: It’s like pineapple when you walk in or whatever, right? That stuff can be just as bad, even though it smells good, it can be just as off-putting to somebody. I’ll give you a great example. I had a client that was real sensitive to the candles. We’d go into any house, even if it smelled phenomenal to me, she would immediately say like, “Oh, I feel like I’m getting a migraine, like is driving me crazy.” Yes, it’s a good smell, but it’s not helping your case. It’s all about neutral. That’s the way you’re going to maximize that potential value and the people walking in and out of your home are going to have a good experience.

[0:24:41] TU: I like that. That was number three. Why it matters to depersonalize. Why it matters to neutralize the home. Number four is setting the price. I’m really curious, Nate, I have not yet gone through the buying or selling process in this chaotic market that we live in. Just curious about what you’re seeing in terms of pricing lower to try to generate more interest. Maybe you have somewhat of a bidding war, pricing it a little bit higher because of the market and where things are at. Again, all markets being local. What are your thoughts here?

[0:25:10] NH: Yeah. I think the biggest thing here, and I tell this to every single client I work with. The list price of a home is completely made up. The market value of the home is the number you want to determine, right? All pharmacists here, we’re all interested in facts and numbers, right? I don’t want to just make things up. That’s why you want to determine market value first and adjust from there, right? A good agent’s going to come in and tell you, “Look, this is the market value of the home. It’s between 340 and $350,000.” They should be able to give you a pretty tight range.

“And here are the factors that I’m basing that on. If I were to list your home today, here’s the pricing strategy I would use.” Like you said, it can be anything from listing it at that 340 or 335 mark to try to generate a lot of activity. Typically, we’re going to do that if there are many other homes on the market, right? That’s more typical in a neutral market or a buyer’s market, where I want to be the first one of the five that are available that people go see. The reason they’re doing that is because it’s priced lower than everything else, right? I’m still going to get close to market value for it, but I’m going to be the first one that everybody looks at, especially –

[0:26:10] TU: Yeah. I think of the filters, right, on realtor, right?

[0:26:13] NH: Exactly.

[0:26:13] TU: Or filtering by price. Yeah.

[0:26:14] NH: Exactly. The other strategy is, hey, if there’s nothing available, if you’re in a market like the community that I live in, where a home goes on the market and it sells in two days, because everybody wants to buy and there’s not enough inventory, you can push that market value quite a bit, right? If we determined that it’s 340 to 350, I might list it 375 and see what happens, right? You might get a bite at that price and as long as it appraises, awesome. You’ve gotten more than market value out of your home, but you have to start with what is the market value before you can determine a strategy.

So many agents, I hear this all the time from prospective sellers, they will just throw these giant numbers at people. They won’t tell them market value, they’ll say, “Well, if I were to list your home today, I’d list for $400,000.” Why? Just because it’s the biggest number and you want me to work with you, or do you have a real reason behind that, right? That’s the kind of questions you want to be asking.

[0:27:03] TU: Since you brought up appraisals, I want to talk about that for a moment, because in my experience, it feels like appraisals are a little bit like the Wild Wild West, and just a ton of subjectivity. I know that’s supposed to have been tightening up. I don’t know, it just feels like it hasn’t when you think about the process and how it’s completed. What are you seeing, again, small sample size in your area, but what are you seeing in terms of, for people that are pushing price point, that maybe is x% above market value? Like how tight is the appraisal of the market value right now?

[0:27:34] NH: Yeah. Appraisals, unfortunately, are just still so subjective. Typically, what I’m seeing is that if you get a home that is over market value, but there are multiple offers on that home, the appraiser is at the point where, and again, this is not actually how they work, but what it feels like is that they’re looking at it and saying, “Look, this is an arm’s length transaction.” That’s a real estate word for basically, it’s on the market and anybody can buy it. This is an arm’s length transaction. There are multiple people interested at 380, and it’s probably worth 380, right? If lots of people want it, I don’t have –

[0:28:05] TU: Yeah. That becomes the market value.

[0:28:06] NH: Yeah. I don’t have the empiric evidence to say it’s worth more than 350, but I do have six people who all threw an offer at this house at 380 and near it. Maybe that is the value, right? I don’t think that’s actually how appraisers are doing it, but that’s how it feels. They’re supposed to base it on comps. They’re supposed to base it on recent home sales. Ideally, it’s based on homes within a mile or less radius, really even less than a half a mile within the last six months. There are certainly times where it doesn’t feel like that’s being followed, good or bad, right? Negative or positive, they’re picking other homes or whatever, but that’s the ideal state.

[0:28:39] TU: Yeah.

[0:28:40] NH: It’s also a tough job. Not every home is built the exact same way, right? You don’t have just the same cookie cutter house across every block. It’s not an easy way to determine. That can make it difficult.

[0:28:51] TU: Yeah. That’s a good point, right? We all know that a four bedroom, two to four bedroom, two thousand square foot homes can be very different.

[0:28:57] NH: Absolutely.

[0:28:57] TU: So, if you’re just looking at those bones for comps, that may not be a fair comparison. I’ve been in those situations where you’re in areas that aren’t as populated, and they’re trying to draw in comps within a reasonable geographic range. You just know like, “Ah, that’s so different.” Right? Now, if you’re in an area where you’ve got multiple subdivisions and the same type of home and thousands of them, maybe that’s not as significant of a difference. All right. Number five on our list of tips for sellers is understanding buyer versus seller costs. Who is typically paying for what? Tell us more, Nate.

[0:29:35] NH: Yeah. This is a big point of when you get a house when someone’s actually buying your home and get it under contract, there’s going to be a lot of negotiations about who’s paying for what. This can be state-specific. Some states lay out exactly how it’s supposed to be. Then you can deviate from that. Others are just up in the air, right? You determine what’s normal for your market.

It can be everything from the taxes, right? How are you splitting the taxes? It can be the title fees. The actual process of transferring that title, who’s paying for that. Typically, it would be split 50-50, but maybe in this market, you want the buyer to cover everything or whatever, right? That’s all part of the negotiation. There are some things that I think typically fall on one side of the other, so things like inspections typically fall on the buyer. I can’t think of a single transaction I’ve ever done with the seller, helped to cover inspection fees, but I suppose it’s out there.

Then closing costs. Closing costs are usually split, except for the buyer-specific stuff, like down payment and rate lock fees, and all that other stuff. There are a lot of different ways you can slice that up, but typically things are cut 50-50 and then anything that’s very buyer-centric is going to be covered by the buyer and vice versa. That’s what I typically see, but you can certainly build it any way you like.

[0:30:48] TU: We were talking before the show, that’s all when things go as planned, right? But there’s situations where once someone’s under contract and then a problem’s identified, right? Typically, under inspection or something else comes up, major, right? Septic tank, roof types of things. Tell us about your experiences here and how that may impact this item.

[0:31:09] NH: Yeah. So, one of the items that typically comes up is a seller’s credit, is what it’s called. Typically, if you are selling a home, you might be providing some credit back to the buyer. The most common version of that is what’s called a closing cost credit, where you’re basically saying “Here, I’m going to give you $3,000 toward your closing costs to help you with some of the cash that you’re going to need to buy the house.” What I often will see is somebody that says, “Hey, look, if the house is listed at 340 and we’re close and we’re negotiating down to 335, maybe we can agree on 340, but you give me 5,000 back in the form of closing cost credit that will reduce the cash that I need as a buyer.”

The seller still makes the same amount, right? The net value is still 335, but it’s helping the buyer out quite a bit. That’s very common, but what you mentioned where we’ve got a problem that might come up down the road or someone’s trying to push that seller’s credit beyond the typical amount, that’s where you can start to get into some issues. I had a deal a couple of years ago. I was actually representing the buyer. During inspection, we determined that the house needed a new septic tank and it was way out in the woods. It was a five-bedroom home. It was pretty large. It needed a huge new, I mean old type of tank dugout, new one put in $10,000 fixed. Easy. Yeah.

It became a question of like, “Well, how do we do that? When do we do that? Right? Is it before closing? Is it during after? Like what does that look like?” There are a lot of different ways that you can build that in. For this particular deal, what we ultimately determined was, we had two companies come out, give quotes. We basically all agreed that this was the company we were going to go with. Buyer and seller agreed to that. The seller provided a $10,000 credit toward that septic system to be installed after closing.

There are certainly risks to the buyer to doing that. There are risks to the seller to doing that, but it was what we landed on. It’s something where if and when those problems come up, you want to talk to your agent about, “Hey, what does this look like if I do X, what are the ramifications? If we do Y, what are the outcomes?” Then you can make the best possible determination. There are lots of different ways that you can build that.

[0:33:14] TU: Great stuff. Another example, right? We’re a good agent with experience. Where it really comes in, right? I have been through this scenario. I’ve seen how this is done, multiple ways this has been done. Seeing how all of this ties together. Well, there you have it. Five tips for those that are selling a home and also for things to be aware of that those that are buying a home and to have the helpful insights. Nate, as always, really appreciate your time, your insights, your expertise, and for coming on the show.

[0:33:39] NH: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Tim.

[0:33:41] TU: Nate and I have covered a ton of information in this podcast. Imagine working with Nate one-on-one through your home-buying journey and having his support to give you much-needed peace of mind. We know many pharmacists want to feel confident about big financial decisions, including a home purchase.

If you have fears of being house poor, concerns about the impact a home purchase might have on your other financial goals, Nate and his home-buying concierge service can help all at no cost to you. You can visit realestaterph.com or click on the link in the show notes to schedule your free 30-minute jumpstart planning session with Nate.

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:34:20] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacists, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 322: Checklist for First-Time Homebuyers

Posted on by Tim U

Mortgage loan officer Tony Umholtz joins the show to discuss available loan options (including the pharmacist home loan), why a preapproval matters, and things to consider when choosing a lender. This episode is sponsored by First Horizon.

About Today’s Guest

Episode Summary

If you’re a first-time home buyer, this episode is for you! This week’s episode, sponsored by FirstHorizon, features Tony Umholtz, a mortgage loan officer at First Horizon Bank with over 20 years of experience in the industry, and he is here to share important factors that you should be taking into consideration before purchasing your first property. By the end of the episode, you will understand how banks decide whether or not to approve a mortgage application, the pros and cons of the various loan options that exist, the difference between preapproval and prequalification, things to look out for when choosing a lender, and more! Buying your first home isn’t something to be taken lightly, and Tony’s insights will leave you feeling well-equipped to make decisions that are going to serve you well, now and in the future.

Key Points From the Episode

Tony shares a number of current market trends that are important to be aware of.
Factors that are putting huge pressure on housing affordability (particularly for first-time homeowners)
What a debt-to-income ratio is and how banks use it to determine which mortgage applications to approve.
Why Tony recommends an income-based repayment plan for student loan debt.
A question you should ask yourself before applying for a mortgage.
An overview of the traditional lending options that are available to first-time home buyers.
Advantages and disadvantages of taking out an FHA loan.
Benefits of the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac conventional loan programs.
Examples of additional loan programs.
Details about First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan.
Factors to take into consideration when choosing a lender.
The difference between preapproval and prequalification.
Advice for choosing a real estate agent to work with.
Implications of a ruling that is likely going to be passed by the Supreme Court.

Episode Highlights

“We’re in an environment of higher interest rates than we’ve seen in a long time. We haven’t seen rates like this since the early 2000s.” — Tony Umholtz [0:02:13]

“Just because the lender says, ‘We can give you this loan,’ it doesn’t mean it’s what is best for you.” — Tony Umholtz [0:15:43]

“There’s a tremendous amount of liquidity for first-time home buyers. So I would ignore a lot of what you hear in the media.” — Tony Umholtz [0:16:59]

“It’s a good time to buy because the inventory levels are low, prices are stable, you can get a better deal than you could a few years ago when the market was so hot you couldn’t even order an appraisal sometimes.” — Tony Umholtz [0:24:05]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.8] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrick here, and thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I welcome back on to the show, Tony Umholtz, a mortgage loan officer with First Horizon Bank. During the show, I tap into Tony’s 20-plus years of experience in the industry to form a checklist for first-time home buyers. We discuss how to determine how much home you can afford, the different types of loan options to consider, what to look for in choosing a lender, and much more.

Okay, let’s hear it from today’s sponsor, First Horizon, and then we’ll jump into my interview with Tony.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[0:00:36.6] TU: Does saving 20% for a downpayment on a home feel like an uphill battle? It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high student loan debt, meeting that saving 20% for a downpayment on a home may take years.

We’ve been on a hunt for a solution for pharmacists that are ready to purchase a home loan with a lower down payment and are happy to have found that option with First Horizon. First Horizon offers a professional home loan option, AKA, doctor or pharmacist home loan, that requires a 3% down payment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time home buyers, has no PMI, and offers a 30-year fixed rate mortgage on home loans up to USD 726,200.

The pharmacist home loan is available in all states except Alaska and Hawaii and can be used to purchase condos as well. However, rates may be higher and a condo review has to be completed. To check out the requirements for First Horizon’s Pharmacist Home Loan, and to start the preapproval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:48.5] TU1: Tony, welcome back to the show.

[0:01:50.5] TU2: Tim, thanks for having me, great to be here.

[0:01:52.1] TU1: Excited to have you back and I’m going to start with my standard question to you, given the ongoing volatility that we’re seeing in the mortgage landscape. What are the market trends and realities that you’re seeing right now that our listeners should be aware of?

[0:02:06.9] TU2: Well, there’s a lot to digest right now with what the federal reserve has done this past year and you know, we’re in an environment of higher interest rates than we’ve seen in a long time. We haven’t seen rates like this since the early 2000s and, you know, a couple of things to watch right now, the big news last week was that our US treasury needed to borrow an additional 275 billion that they didn’t have in the budget. So that kind of pushed rates a little higher across the board. It does help fixed-income investors because rates are higher for investments but for mortgage, mortgages, and borrowers, especially if you have variable rate like credit card loans and things like that and home equity lines, those rates are really taking a hit here recently.

[0:02:51.9] TU1: Yeah, 275 billion, small details, right? That we need to be planning for, you know, we talk about a balanced budget on the personal side. We don’t have that luxury, right?

[0:03:00.5] TU2: That’s right, that’s right. You know, I was teasing my wife about it too. I said, “You know, look, it’s important that we keep a good budget because we can see what’s happening in our national debt,” but I think, you know, it’s funny. Back to that point you know overall, I’ve seen – this is – I’m going into my 21st year of this industry, and people on average I feel are better stewards with their money than they used to be.

Like I look back in the mid-200s, it was a lot different. People were always coming to me very indebted, not that everyone’s perfect now but it just seems like people are better educated and better stewards overall from what I’ve seen. It’s been a choppy market and I think we could be in for higher rates for some time unless we see some big global macro event.

You know, a bank failure or unemployment spike or, you know, GDP really collapse, those sort of catalysts would cause rates to get worse. On the bright side, most markets around the country, inventory levels are low and there’s just not enough homes. So home prices have continued to go up in most areas and that’s been a challenge too because you have higher interest rates and higher home prices.

I don’t think home prices are going to fall, given the inventory levels, because that’s how you measure price stabilities, inventory. I mean, there’s always areas that are going to be suffering more than others. So we can’t generalize that every city is the same but the majority of the cities in the US right now have a lack of inventory and that’s causing prices to be stable and even going up despite the headwinds.

[0:04:40.0] TU1: Yeah, and it feels like there’s several factors, you know, we’ve talked about this before on the show about inventory being an issue. Obviously, rates where they are, which I think is putting a lot of pressure on first-time homebuyers.

We’re going to talk in a little bit about student loans here coming back online and the impact of that for first-time home buyers and then I think there’s the reality of, you know, Jess and I talk about this often, so many of us that locked in homes at the high twos and low threes pre-pandemic and the beginning of the pandemic, unless there’s a significant reason to move, a lot of people are saying, “I don’t want to give up that rate,” right? “Why would I give up you know, 2.8, 2.8, 3% to take on a 7% plus rate?” So I suspect that probably is worsening, you know, some of the supply and demand as well, is that fair?

[0:05:26.1] TU2: Absolutely, I think that’s a big, very fair, big driver of why inventory’s tight, right? Because people, even though they may need a bigger home, their family’s grown, they don’t want to give up that interest rate. But it’s interesting, we’re starting to see, and it’s just a few cases, but I’m starting to see people that have so much equity. They have that 30-year at 3% but they have so much equity and they built up other debts. So you know, credit card debt mainly. Other liabilities, auto loans that are higher interest rates than that, where even if you took a rate in the sixes to cash out, refinance it, and pay off your debt, you’re saving a thousand dollars a month in cash flow.

So I think, at some point, you know, being married to that super low rate on a small loan balance, even a higher mortgage rate could pay off for some people to consolidate because cash flow is the key, right? Payments, what you’re paying. And it’s not all about rate one mortgage, you gotta look at your whole debt profile but there are a lot of people with those low rates and it’s just one of those things, right? You know, you don’t want to move when you’ve got a payment like that and even though you have but you are sitting on a lot of equity.

[0:06:36.3] TU1: Yeah, it’s interesting. I appreciate the comment about looking at the whole portfolio. You know, something like debt consolidation may be a factor or you know, to your point, where at one point in time, especially as you’re getting started and you don’t have a lot of equity, that low rate can be a huge advantage but at some point, you’ve got a lot of equity that’s sitting in your home, right? And depending on what else is going on in the financial plan, there may be other options to consider.

So today, Tony, we’re going to cover a checklist for first-time home buyers that includes determining how much one can purchase. We’ll talk about affordability, evaluating the loan options that are out there, factors in choosing a lender, and also in selecting a real estate agent. So let’s go through this one by one. First on our checklist is the determination of affordability, right?

Relevant topic just given what we talked about here over the last few minutes. I think as we’ve seen, as you mentioned, escalation or at least stability of home prices, rising interest rates, we talked about that and for many of our first-time home buyers, federal student loan payments are going to be coming back online for the first time in over three and a half years.

All of this is putting pressure on affordability, especially again for those first-time home buyers that may not have equity built up in a previous home. So let’s start with how the bank determines affordability, AKA, how much mortgage they will approve, and then we can talk about how the individual may also determine affordability. So give us the rundown. I know this is fluid in some cases but how does the bank look at the affordability of how much home one can ultimately afford?

[0:08:08.9] TU2: Sure. Well, you know, for the majority of the products, Tim, the debt-to-income ratio that we look for is 43%. So what that means, debt-to-income ratio, is your total income, total debt, your debts cannot be higher than 43% of your income. Now, that’s gross monthly income, okay?

So if you’re W2 wage earner, then it’s going to be before tax, right? So that’s going to be – a quick example, if you make USD 10,000 in household income per month, your total liabilities including that new mortgage payment cannot exceed 4,300. So that would be the basic calculation of a debt-to-income ratio. That’s what the majority of lenders look at. Now, there’s ways to get like, we do have the ability, especially for those who are putting more money down like more than putting 20% down for example, we do have the ability a lot of times to go up as high as 50% debt-to-income ratio.

But you typically have to have compensating factors like, you know, 20% down or more, higher credit scores, you know, liquidity, things like that. So that’s normally when you see some of the higher debt-to-income ratios but I would say 43 is where you want to be at for a safe number. That’s what the majority of the lenders in our country are going to look at.

[0:09:33.4] TU1: And just to reinforce what you said, that’s not just mortgage payment, that’s total debt loads, right? So if there’s debt commitments, that could be credit card, debt commitments to car payments.

[0:09:43.7] TU2: Right.

[0:09:44.1] TU1: Debt commitments to student loans. Let’s talk about that for a moment. So we, again, we’re coming back online here in the fall. Many of our listeners, especially first-time homebuyers, may have upwards of USD 200,000 or more of student loan debt.

Now, depending on how they pay that off, they could very aggressively pay it off if they want to. The standard repayment is a 10-year default option, in that case, they would be looking at monthly payments, 1,800 to USD 2,000 a month, or they could take that out over a longer period of time, which is probably most common, on something like an income-driven repayment plan, which will lower their monthly payment.

So lots of nuances in student loans and I’m curious to hear from your perspective as a lender, someone who has had a lot of experience in this industry, working with pharmacists as well, how do they look at the student loans?

[0:10:31.5] TU2: Well, it is, it’s a great question. I mean, the first thing is normally, I find that the income-based repayment plan is going to give you, especially now, it’s going to probably give you the best ratios for most of our listeners, for most of our potential clients here. There is a factor we use.

For example, if there was no payment, right? Or if you’re in sort of deferment, we’re going to use a factor of the student loans, which is better than like Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and FHA would use but that factor can still be higher than what most have as an income-based repayment, I find.

But there is the factor that we use for the student loan payments that we’ll use to kind of generate a payment that will service that liabilities monthly obligation, and that factor again is less than like, for example, Fannie, Freddie are 1% of the balance per month. So if it’s a USD 200,000 balance, you’re at USD 2,000 per month.

[0:11:30.4] TU1: Yeah.

[0:11:30.8] TU2: Which is pretty unaffordable. This product is 0.5%, which is still high. I mean, at 200,000, it will be a thousand a month. So it’s a more generous way but it’s not, I find that the income-based repayment is typically better. So that’s normally what we recommend.

[0:11:50.9] TU1: I’m glad you brought that up because we do have people that may be deferring for whatever reason. Obviously, we’re in the pause period right now. So understanding again, we talk about all the time that we can’t be thinking about one part of the financial plan in a silo. This is a great example where how you approach your student loan may certainly have an impact on affordability and determination on the mortgage side.

Tony, you mentioned just a few moments ago that something like a higher credit score or greater down payment may be able to push that percentage upwards from 43%. Can the opposite be true? So, you know, a low down payment, and we’ll talk about different financing options here in a little bit, or a lower credit score, could that ultimately work in the opposite direction where maybe it’s not 43% but it’s a lower percentage?

[0:12:38.9] TU2: Sometimes yes. Yeah, there is such scenarios where it might need to be – if the credit score is rocky, although I mean, when we have a little bit of a credit challenge with low down payment, I always look for FHA loans because conventional the answer would be yes, there would be some challenges with Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, conventional loans.

But with FHA, that serves as a good niche there and FHA serves that market really well. A lot of times, the interest rates are much better too for that borrower that has a little bit of a credit ding for conventional style, will pivot to that product but yeah, that is exactly right. If you have a higher debt-to-income ratio, low down payment, it’s going to be a more challenging situation for sure.

[0:13:26.5] TU1: So we’re talking here about you know, affordability. What the bank is going to determine that they are comfortable lending you with, and it’s important to call out and remember that the bank’s calculation ultimately is a CYA for the bank, right? It’s to minimize their risk on you as the “lendee” for closing on that loan.

So they’re trying to determine the likelihood of being able to repay that loan but it’s certainly not a calculation to determine what is or is not ultimately in your best interest with looking at the whole of the financial plan, right? It’s really on the individual borrower to determine what the monthly budget can afford with other goals and priorities in mind and that is a huge piece to consider.

We often say, Tony, that someone really should start with their own budget, and then obviously, there’s going to be most often, maybe a bigger number in terms of what the bank will determine as affordable and to be able to reconcile that as they go out and search homes. What we’re trying to really do is prevent a situation where someone gets into a home and then pay cut, temporary job loss, something happens and they feel like they’re really strapped month to month. So I would really encourage people, when they look at personal affordability, to answer the question, how much of your monthly take-home pay do you want to be taken up from a home purchase? And being able to feel comfortable with that.

And this is really a place to mention, you know, principle interest, taxes, and insurance is certainly a portion of that but there’s a lot of other things that we need to be thinking about, right? It could be association fees, it could be maintenance, it could be upgrades. We all know getting into home, things break, we want to upgrade things and so making sure we’ve got margin in the budget to be able to do that as well is really, really important.

[0:15:09.1] TU2: HOA fees are going to be included so if homeowner’s association fees, something else called CDD fees, which are community which developers pass along to the new homeowner in a lot of parts of the country for new construction communities and those can be, they’re like a non-Ad Valorem tax that gets added on to your property taxes.

Those are another cost that’s factored into the debt ratios and so that’s something to consider but again, yes, home repairs, furnishing, all that has to be considered. Just because the lender says, “We can give you this loan,” it doesn’t mean it’s what is best for you.

[0:15:51.6] TU1: So that’s number one on our checklist. Number two for our checklist for first-time home buyers is evaluating the different loan options. Tony, something we’ve talked about before in the show and we’ll link in the show notes to some of those previous episodes where folks can dig in in more detail but it’s worth revisiting as it’s an important part, a really important part for a prospective homebuyer to understand the various options and products that are out there.

You’ve already mentioned a couple of these, FHA, you mentioned the conventional loans offered through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Give us a brief overview of the traditional lending options that are available for our first-time home buyer, and then we’ll also talk in more detail about the pharmacist home loan option available through First Horizon.

[0:16:33.0] TU2: Sure. So there are a lot of programs available for first-time home buyers and for residential financing in particular. I mean, you’ll hear some things in the media about financing tightening up, lending tightening up. It’s primarily on the commercial side and some of the high-end bank portfolio side, whether they’re, you know, you have two million dollar loans, stuff is tightening. But there’s a tremendous amount of liquidity for first-time home buyers. So I would ignore a lot of what you hear, you know, in the media regarding that.

The first product I’ll mention, which I mentioned earlier, FHA is a very common program for first-time home buyers, especially if your credit is a little lower, if it’s under 680. A lot of times, that’s the best product option from a rate perspective. The benefits of it is you can put as little as three and a half percent down and the loan limits are going to differ by county. So it’s going to depend on what county you’re buying in and that will determine the loan limit, the max loan limit available.

The downside of FHA is it’s got permanent lifetime mortgage insurance. You cannot get rid of the mortgage insurance for the life of the loan. It’s always going to be on the loan and it’s something that gets added on to that monthly payment every month. So that’s the downside of FHA but one of the positives of FHA, and I write a few of these a year, is that it’s the best primary multi-family loan program out there.

I have some really good success stories over the years of young professionals buying triplexes and fourplexes and duplexes, living in one unit, renting the rest of them and it becomes this great lifetime asset. So there are some benefits to FHA financing. There are some good things, some flexibility on down payments and you can get gift funds and so forth, so there are some good things there.

The other is Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which are conventional loan programs. They have, again, some really good programs here as far as you know, 3% down, 5% down options. The PMI on those loans is not lifetime, it can be removed, typically after two years of paying it and even sooner if you come up with the down payment.

Like for example, I’ve had clients that put 10% down, and then literally, six months later they say, “Hey, you know, we ended up coming up with another 10% and we want to put it down and get rid of that MI,” and you can do that, you can do it within that two years. It’s based on the original purchase price but you can get rid of the MI that way too.

And then the other side of that is, we’re starting to see and this is, again, I gotta be careful how I say this but I’m based in Florida so I’m really familiar with these programs in Florida but there’s some state-based programs for first-time home buyers.

Like, we have one in Florida right now where you can essentially get 100% financing. We’ll do a Fannie Mae first mortgage or Freddie Mac first mortgage, and then the state will give you a second at 0% and there’s income caps on that one and the majority of your listeners, Tim, are probably not going to qualify for these interstates because there’s income caps. Like, you can’t earn over a certain limit. The Florida one is very generous, it’s 130,000. So that’s one of the highest I’ve ever heard of but that we’ve got some loans we’re working on here for that down here in Florida but there’s some nichey programs that can fall on our conventional with certain states.

Then the other – I say, the last one is going to be sparingly used, but VA loans. If you have someone that’s a first-time homebuyer or even if their spouse served in the military, VA is a great program for buyers. I mean, it’s just tremendous. No PMI, 100% financing, and some of the best interest rates on the market. We have no lender fees for them. It’s a very, very good program for that audience.

And then lastly, you know, the nichey programs like the one we offer for pharmacists and professionals with no PMI and again, you have to be a pharmacist or be in a certain field to qualify. But that can be as little as 3% down with no PMI if you’re a first-time home buyer and 5% down if you’ve owned before and that loan amount will go all the way up to USD 727,000. So it really covers the majority of first-time home buyers, maybe except those in California, you know, it is still pretty expensive there but for the majority of our audience, that will satisfy that need.

[0:21:17.9] TU1: Great overview Tony, I think that highlights well, you know, we’ll talk in a moment here about choosing a lender but when working with a lender, especially one that’s well-versed in all the options and nuances especially, you know, you’ve referenced several times here different cases where, you know, in working with many pharmacists, people have maybe done a house hack. That might be really attractive for an FHA. Or got a low credit score, maybe an FHA or availability of down payment or access to a VA loan and I’m not from there, it’s the first time I’m hearing about some of the state-based programs. So you know certainly, your expertise in Florida, although you work with pharmacists and others across the country as well.

So I think that’s an interesting one for our community to look into further and I know we do have folks that are listening in Florida that may be just hovering around that one, you know, 30 mark. So depending on applicability, I think that would be worth reaching out to inquire more about as well. I want to make sure our folks are well aware of the pharmacist home loan option via First Horizon.

You just covered some of the basics in terms of down payment, maximum loan amount. One of the reasons that we’ve been excited about this collaboration over the years is the national availability and the lower 48 of this product, knowing that our community is based all across the country. Tell us just a little bit more about that eligibility. You know, I’m thinking about things like credit scores.

So you mentioned no PMI, you mentioned the down payment, you mentioned the loan limits but are there folks where credit score may become an issue here that would point them to an FHA loan? Any other details that individuals need to be aware with this product?

[0:22:49.3] TU2: Sure, sure, good question. The minimum credit score, there’s no maximum but the minimum credit score is 700. So 700 is going to be the minimum credit score for the product and then if you’re under that, we do have ways to help boost credit scores. We have a technology where we can evaluate credit and we can actually see what your score can get to by certain activities, paying certain debts down, maybe a percentage of your credit card, and we’ve helped numerous clients with that. You know, it is almost on a monthly basis. That’s a good tool to get the credit scores higher but 700 is kind of that line in the sand. We can’t go below that for the no MI product, so it’s going to be your minimum score.

You know, as far as the overview of the product, what I love about it is there’s no reserve requirements. A lot of these products have hefty reserve requirements and we don’t have that for it because that really helps first-time home buyers that may not have a lot of savings built up yet or investments built up yet. There’s also no prepayment penalty, which I think is very important because I really believe in the next two years that we’re going to see some really good opportunities to refinance.

That’s why I still think it’s a good time to buy because the inventory levels are low, prices are stable, you can get a better deal than you could a few years ago when the market was so hot you couldn’t even order an appraisal sometimes. It’s still one of those times where I think you’re going to have a chance to get the home you need, build that, and actually have a chance to lower your payments in the future.

I do think we’re going to see that happen. The other variable would just be, we only offer a fixed rate on the product, so it is only a 30-year fixed on this particular option, there’s no 15-year. The last thing I will mention too is it does a lot of duplexes, the three and the fourplexes are allowed but it requires a pretty hefty down payment, it’s usually 20%, where the duplex is only 15% with no MI.

So we’ve used that a few times for pharmacists that want to get into their first property and utilize this program. Quick high level of it. To me, the biggest factors are the no MI, no prepayment penalty, and the flexibility on reserve.

[0:25:10.2] TU1: I’m glad you mentioned the reserve requirement because I think that’s something we’re going to be seeing as more of an issue. You mentioned first-time home buyers naturally that is but especially with student loan payments coming back online that are going to eat into the ability to be able to save up those reserves. Over time, I think that is going to be an important factor that individuals are looking for.

We’ve got some great information on the website, we’ll link to in the show notes as well. You can to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan, click on “get started,” we’ve got a brief form that you can fill out, and then we’ll get you connected with Tony so you can learn more about that product.

Tony, third on our checklist for first-time home buyers is choosing a lender and getting pre-approval. Obviously, you’re biased in terms of the work that you do for good reasons and the value that you provided to many pharmacists out there that are listening, but from your perspective, what are some of the top factors that one should be looking for when choosing with a lender that they want to move forward with?

[0:26:06.9] TU2: Sure. You know, I would say communication is one of the biggest pieces. Being able to communicate is critical in this process because there’s a lot of questions, there’s a lot of things that come up in the home-buying process, so I say communication is number one. The other piece would be service.

You know, I think a mistake a lot of people make is they kind of chase interest rates on the Internet and it can backfire because a lot of times, that’s how they get you in the door to call them and things change once you get in the door and get the application in and the, you know, I think that the service side, being able to close on time, meet the milestones of your contract is really important.

So finding a lender that communicates well but also can meet all those timelines, can close quickly if you need to because if someone – you can close in three weeks or under 30 days. Sometimes, you can go back to the seller and save five, USD 10,000 on the purchase price of the home. It’s a big deal, so I think having bid.

I think in service of meeting the commitment letter date, making sure you use local appraisers. Because some of the bigger lenders will actually use an appraisal management service, where you can have more challenges with the appraisal process than some of the smaller local lenders. So I think that again, it’s a comfort feeling, it’s communication, it’s service, and then having a competitive product I think is important too. You know, having a product that’s a good fit for your needs is important as well. I think those three.

There are a lot of good lenders out there. There really are. It’s getting hard. It’s tough on the lending industry, the volumes have dropped 40% from last year. A lot of lenders are leaving the business, so it is a much tougher environment for the mortgage market right now but there are still good lenders out there for sure.

[0:28:00.3] TU1: Once somebody choose a lender, quickly after that is going to become a preapproval so they can go out there seriously look at homes, be ready to make offers and I think this is an area we see a lot of confusion on partly because of the online shopping of rates and quick access and easy solutions and that being the preapproval versus the prequalification. So tell us briefly about the difference and why the preapproval process is so important.

[0:28:24.3] TU2: So when you go looking for homes, a lot of the real estate agents will ask you, and now we’re going to talk about real estate agents shortly, but they’re going to say, “Do you have a preapproval letter?” You know, that’s going to be the first thing before they even want to engage with you, they’re going to want to make sure you have that and the difference between the preapproval and prequalification are that the lender has checked your income, and checked your credit report.

Those are the two major factors, right? We verified the income, we verified your credit. The prequalification, which a lot of us can get online, is pretty simple. It’s more verbal than anything, right? So verbal verification, where a preapproval, you are actually providing the information to the lender and they’re reviewing it and making sure that from a high level, your income is accurate and your debt-to-income ratio works.

A lot of listing agents won’t even allow you into the property unless you first get that preapproval. It’s either, “Can you pay cash or do you have a preapproval?” Because they call us. We get calls from the listing agents all the time, “Is this client qualified?” And that’s a big factor when you make an offer, is what does that preapproval letter say? And because there’s still multiple offers and sometimes, you know, multiple buyers looking at a home, we still get those phone calls and that I think is very important to have a strong preapproval. That’s going to be the factor in a lot of times, moving forward and it gives you peace of mind.

I understand, you know, “Hey, I don’t want my credit run,” things like that and you know an inquiry on a credit report, having one or two lenders look at it is going to have no impact on your report. It’s when you have multiple types of creditors looking at one time. So if you come to our team and get your credit run and then you go to Bank of America and have them run your credit for a mortgage but then you have Dillard’s run your credit for a credit card, you have Macy’s run your credit for a credit card, and you have a car loan, well, those are different types of creditors all at one time that will impact for sure, but it still won’t be much, it will be a few points.

Where I find people get confused on this and start to go off on a credit tangent is, you know, you can go to a Best Buy, right? And buy a TV and they’ll say, “Okay, here’s that USD 2,000 TV with no interest for a year if you take this credit” and so many people will do that. That will whack your score 40 to 50 points immediately because it shows up as a maxed-out credit card.

[0:30:51.3] TU1: Yep, high utilization.

[0:30:52.7] TU2: Those are misconceptions, I see a lot of borrowers, especially first-time home buyers, will come to me so concerned about an inquiry and they have things like that or their credit card been up to – much more impactful and on [inaudible 0:31:09.0] but yeah, it is a critical thing to have a preapproval in my opinion especially your first time out.

[0:31:17.6] TU1: So glad you mentioned about credit. I remember you saying that on a previous episode and I think that’s just a lot of ways in there, right? Because we often think about it, you know, if you’ve got a personal credit card with a max of 20, USD 25,000 and you’re charging on average three or USD 4,000 a month, you’re at a reasonable percentage of utilization that’s not going to have a negative impact on your score.

In fact, you know, utilization and timely path of credit can have a positive impact on your score but if you go out and buy a piece of furniture, a TV, or whatever, that essentially looks like a maxed-out credit card so that can have a negative impact, great point there. So we’ve talked about affordability, we’ve talked about evaluating loan options, we’ve talked about choosing a lender and getting approval.

And fourth on our checklist is choosing a real estate agent and I would certainly want to give a shoutout here to Nate Hedrick, who is a frequent guest on the YFP Podcast, cohost of The Real Estate Investing Podcast, who has a home buying concierge service intended to connect folks with an agent local in their area. We’ve got more information on the website that we’ll link to in the show notes.

I’m certainly interested, Tony, in your experiences over two decades now, where you regularly work with agents. What are the characteristics that make up a good agent that someone can be looking for when choosing who they want to ultimately go forward with?

[0:32:33.1] TU2: Yeah, a great question and I’m going to bring up something else about agents here in a minute that could change the framework of the industry here very soon but a couple high-level points. I think, you know, the first thing would be, obviously, back to the same thing as the lenders is communication, right? Communication and that rapport is very important and the other piece is just doing their homework, right? What you’re looking for.

I mean, some agents will come to us, and I’ll just give an example real quick when we do conventional loans for 20% down through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, oftentimes we’ll get an appraisal waiver. So that means there’s no appraisal needed. Now, you could still do an appraisal as a buyer but oftentimes, when they get that, they want to waive it because they save the appraisal fee.

A lot of the good agents will do so much work on comping the home out and the offer price and knowing what the comps are, those borrowers will feel comfortable moving forward without the appraisal, right? Because of the work that agent has done. So I think just knowledge of the area, knowledge of the process, communication, do they have a good reputation with other listing agents?

That is huge, I mean, I find that some of the – I work with a lot of realtors just around here in Tampa especially but I have some in other states. It’s amazing, even not where I can see them face to face all the time. In fact, I had a Zoom call with a great friend of mine in Miami that has a big team and we would talk this morning to his team at nine just about the market and what we’re seeing.

But I think just seeing these agents that I have worked with around rather for a long time, ten-plus years, is the ones that play well with everyone else and have a good reputation, when they bring a buyer to that other list, that other realtor’s listing, guess who gets, “Hey, this guy, he knows he’s bringing a qualified buyer. He’s not playing games, he negotiates the right way.”

So I think having a good reputation is really important and that brings me to something else which I’m kind of following from a distance but it is going to be huge for the real estate industry, and I think for the entire residential industry is right now, the Supreme Court is reviewing a case with the National Association of Realtors and basically to summarize this case is it’s going to eliminate most parts of the country.

When you as a buyer go buy a home, the commissions are paid from the seller’s proceeds, right? So the [inaudible 0:35:03.5] who represents the seller will get 3% or 2%, whatever it might be for that area and then the buyer’s agent will get the same, right? Two and a half, 3%, whatever it might be. Well, under this new rule, it would be more like the commercial market, where a buyer of a commercial piece of property in a lot of cases pays their broker out of their own pocket, right? So they pay the 3% out of their own pocket.

Well, this is really significant for the entire industry, because however you’re going to source business as a real estate agent, your buyers are going to have to be educated now because they’re going to be responsible before your pay because of this new Supreme Court ruling not allowing the listing agent. So there is a lot of moving parts here, I don’t want to speculate.

[0:35:50.0] TU1: Wow.

[0:35:50.2] TU2: But it is a huge thing that I think not a lot of people know about. Some of the big real estate companies are talking about it but it’s a huge deal because in my mind, I’m looking at it I’m like, “Well, what do we do?” So you know, we do allow 3% seller concessions, can we increase the loan amount to cover part of it? I mean, is that going to still be allowed? Because a lot of first-time home buyers are going to be impacted [inaudible 0:36:14.4] either agent two and a half, 3% of the sales price, right?

So I think in the end, it’s going to be net-net the same day everyone because it’s going to mean, “All right, so the price is a little lower because you are paying that extra 3% directly,” but it could end up being, “Hey, you have to come up with more money at closing.” So this is a moving conversation.

I haven’t followed it close enough to know exactly when it’s going to come out. I don’t think the industry knows when the ruling is actually going to come out and which way it’s going to go but it’s like a lot of really smart people in the real estate business I’ve spoken to have told me that they think it’s going to pass or it’s going to change the dynamics of the industry.

So it’s just something to watch and if you’re kind of on the fence now buy, I would say, you’re going to buy and you’re going to be – you know, kind of my thoughts on buying is if you’re going to be in a city for five years or more, it’s almost a no brainer to buy. I mean, even if property values fail by 5% or 10% or whatever, between amortization, tax deductions, escalations annually, it’s hard to lose.

I mean, home ownership in the long run is just one of the best wealth-building tools, probably a good idea to do it before that ruling, right? If it does end up going the other way and you gotta come up with that additional 3% for your agent because it’s really going to change a lot of dynamics.

[0:37:39.3] TU1: Certainly a lot to follow there and a couple of thoughts are coming to mind, Tony, was one, you know the implications of a buyer now having to come forward with those dollars, right? Already – especially first-time home buyers, you know bringing cash to the table can be a challenge, and then I thought about the characteristics you listed off of a good agent.

You know, excellent communication, experience I think is one that is really significant. You see a huge range of experience and expertise and agents in terms of how many homes are they selling or working with the buyer-seller throughout the year, and for how many years? And then reputation in terms of reputation with other agents, are they kind, do they do business in a good way? But those characteristics I think, especially with that responsibility, potentially falling on the buyer. You know, anytime somebody has skin in the game now, they’re going to be looking for more of that, right? Whereas, I think right now, the bar of entry and to somebody choosing an agent is probably pretty low because they’re not necessarily feeling the financial transaction of that.

So great insights, that’s something we’ll be following as well and really appreciate your perspective as we went through this checklist as well. For folks that want to get connected with Tony and learn more, make sure to check out, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. You can click on “get started” and we’ll make sure to get you over to Tony. As always, Tony, I really appreciate your perspective and having you on the show.

[0:39:00.5] TU2: Thanks for having me, always great to be here. Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:39:04.2] TU1: Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again, thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home.

A lot of pharmacists in the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% down payment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time home buyers and has no PMI on a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage.

To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to get started with the preapproval process, you can visit, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:39:48.9] TU1: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only, and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information on the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post, and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 316: Real Tips From Recent First-Time Home Buyers

Posted on by Tim U

Neal and Kaitie Fox join Nate Hedrick, The Real Estate RPh, to reflect on the lessons learned as first-time homebuyers.

About Today’s Guest

Neal and Kaitie travelled from their hometown of Coshocton, OH to attend Cedarville University in 2011. A year later they married at age 19 and began their joint financial adventure. Kaitie began working at the University food service contractor and eventually became the Head Baker, supporting the family through pharmacy school and until the birth of their second son. Now, Kaitie is home raising Timothy, 5, and David, 1, while Neal works. Neal completed his PharmD at Cedarville and a PGY1 residency at Premier Health Miami Valley Hospital, a Level 1 Trauma Center with over 950 licensed beds and over 110 adult ICU beds. He currently serves as one of the Medical ICU Clinical Pharmacy Specialists and the Research Project Coordinator for the PGY1 pharmacy residency program. He occasionally gives lectures or hands-on training at Cedarville University while also taking APPE students from several pharmacy schools throughout the year.

Episode Summary

Buying a home can be a daunting, exciting, and overwhelming experience. On this weeks podcast, sponsored by Real Estate RPh, we are joined by Neal and Kaitie Fox to discuss how they went about buying their first home. Neal is a pharmacist and Kaitie is a stay-at-home mom, and in this episode, they tell us what made them decide to buy a house when they did, what they would say to someone wanting to purchase their first home, and how interest rates and other aspects played a role in their decision. They delve into how they chose a financial lender and why they decided to change who they financed their house with at the last minute before explaining how YFP assisted them in this process. When looking for a real estate agent, it is important that you find someone who takes your needs into consideration and communicates effectively, and Neal and Kaitie explain why they decided to change agents early on in their journey. Finally, our guests remind us to use our resources wisely and ask as many questions as possible when buying a home.

Key Points From the Episode

Introducing today’s guests, Kaitie and Neal Fox, and a brief overview of their careers.
What made Neal and Kaitie decide to buy a home when they did.
Their advice on a starting point for someone wanting to buy a home in the near future.
Why interest rates were a barrier for them when buying their first home.
Things to consider when choosing an area to look for a house in.
The importance of moving fast when you find a house you’re interested in.
How Kaitie and Neal navigated financing a house and what that process looked like for them.
Their home-buying team, changing agents, and why YFP was so helpful to the Fox family.
The importance of having clear and responsive communication with your real estate agent.
Why you must utilize your resources and ask questions when closing on a house.

Episode Highlights

“The biggest thing is to find that person who is your trusted expert in home buying.” — @ThePharmFox [0:05:10]

“Have at least two, maybe even three [financing] options because as long as your pre-approval is still valid, you should be able to pick the best option that fits you.” — @ThePharmFox [0:16:44]

“Utilize those resources that are right there [and] are helping you through the process anyway.” — @fox_kaitie [0:29:06]

“Expect the unexpected because it is a very long, complicated process and you will almost certainly run into something that you didn’t think about before.” — @ThePharmFox [0:33:51]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrick here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. Today, I pass the mic over to Nate Hedrick, founder of Real Estate RPH and cohost of the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast, where he welcomes Kaitie and Neal Fox to talk about their journey as recent first-time home buyers. They discussed the lessons learned along the journey, including common pitfalls to avoid that will be helpful to anyone that is looking to buy a home for the first time. So let’s hear it from today’s sponsor, Real Estate RPH, and then we’ll jump into Nate’s interview with Kaitie and Neal Fox.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[0:00:39.2] TU: Are you planning to buy a home in the next year or two? With the state of current home prices and mortgage rates, the home-buying process can feel overwhelming but what if you can leverage the knowledge and ongoing support of someone who has worked with dozens of other pharmacists through their home-buying journey, all at no cost to you? I’m talking about Nate Hedrick at the Real Estate RPH. Nate is a pharmacist who has been a partner of YFP for many years now and offers a home-buying concierge service that can help you find a high-quality agent in your area and support you throughout the entire process. So head on over to realestaterph.com or click on the link in the show notes to schedule your free 30-minute jumpstart planning session with Nate.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:26.1] NH: Hey, Neal, Kaitie, welcome to the show.

[0:01:28.1] KF: Hi, thank you.

[0:01:29.2] NF: Yeah, thanks for having us.

[0:01:30.4] NH: Yeah, absolutely. I knew when we had first talked that you guys are going to be fun to work with and I’m excited we get the opportunity to talk all about home buying today with a couple of recent home buyers, it’s going to be great. So maybe for our audience, just kind of give us a brief introduction on yourselves and a little bit about your pharmacy career and we’ll take it from there.

[0:01:49.7] NF: Yeah, sure. So I’m Neal Fox, I am a 2018 graduate of Cedarville University. I practice as a clinical pharmacy specialist in the medical ICU at a large level-one trauma center in Dayton, Ohio with just over 900 licensed beds and just over 110 adult ICU beds.

[0:02:15.5] KF: I’m Kaitie, I’m Neal’s wife, and I am currently a stay-at-home mom with our two boys and I’d previously been a baker for about eight years.

[0:02:24.7] NH: And we got connected, gosh, it was back in late 2022, talking about you guys are ready to buy your first home and we wanted to help you with that and so you know, what we thought we do today is get together with you guys, talk a little bit about first time home buying with someone who has recently gone through it and you know, talk through any pitfalls or words of advice. Things you guys learned along the way because I think a lot of our audience is sitting out there looking at current market conditions, looking at the current financial situation, and saying, “I don’t know if I can do this” or “I’ve got questions but I don’t even know where to start” or, “I don’t even know enough to ask questions” right?” I think if we talked through a couple of things, talk through the process, it might help a lot of the audience out there that might be trying this for the first time. So if you’ll indulge me, I’ll be firing off the questions and you guys just give me your hot take on what it was like and we can learn from each other. So does that sound good?

[0:03:14.1] NF: Yeah.

[0:03:14.1] KF: Right, yeah.

[0:03:15.0] NF: No problem, happy to share.

[0:03:16.5] NH: Awesome. So I think, you know, one of the things we focus here a lot at YFP is kind of the “why” behind the financial decision and it could be putting money in your 401(k) or paying off your student loan or in this case, you know, buying a home. Did you have a particular “why” behind you know, buying a home like when you felt you were – you felt like you were ready to do that?

[0:03:34.3] KF: Frankly, at this point, we have outgrown our current living space. We’re currently renting a two-bedroom apartment and we have two young children and then ourselves and it’s getting very, very cramped very quickly.

[0:03:49.6] NF: Yeah, home ownership had always been an intermediate to long-term financial goal for us. We definitely were not in a position to do that coming right out of residency but over the last few years, we’ve been able with YFPs help a lot to get into a better position and now for us, the living situation, the space, you know, we’ve been room sharing with our 14-month-old for 14 months.

[0:04:16.4] KF: 14 months.

[0:04:17.8] NF: So we don’t really have anywhere else to put him. So the “why” for this year was kind of that, like we didn’t feel like we had the option to wait much. So in some ways, that made it easier because we had the resolve to get it done, to go all the way through the process.

[0:04:33.4] NH: Yeah, I love that and I am sure there are many people resonating with that of like, “I am out of space” and sometimes it’s kids, sometimes it’s pets, sometimes you know, whatever it is, right? It’s time to make that move, so I think that totally resonates. What about you know the getting started process, right? So you have this “why” and you say, “Look, we’re out of space, we got to move, it’s time to buy” but how do you get started? Like, now that you’ve done this and kind of looking backward, you know, we talk about ways to get started all the time but for you guys, specifically, like what would you recommend as a decent starting point for somebody who is thinking about buying a home in the next, let’s say six months?

[0:05:07.7] NF:1 Yeah, for sure. So I think, the biggest thing is to find that person who is your trusted expert in home buying. So obviously, I’m not that person, that’s not what I went to school for and if you’re listening to this podcast, you’re probably not that person either, right? So you know, what I’ve always said, what we’ve always said working with YFP is they’re like our money mechanics. So in the same way, that I go to a mechanic for my car because I know nothing about my car, because again, that’s not what I went to school for, I need a trusted person, a trusted expert who can tell me what’s wrong, explain it to me in simple terms and then help me make a decision very similar to how they teach healthcare professionals that you know, we need to explain things in patient-friendly language. You know, I need that same person when it comes to money, financial decisions and that’s what YFP is for us, and then home buying is another like sub-specialty within that. So that’s why we immediately went through YFP to find a point of contact, which started with you, Nate, to guide us through the first part of that process.

[0:06:21.9] NH: Yeah, I think that makes a ton of sense and again, we’re biased here, right? At YFP because we like what we offer but I think you’re totally right, you don’t know where to start, getting a great expert on your team is a great place to start, you know? We’ll talk about this more in detail but we use the home-buying concierge services with you guys, getting you connected with a great real estate agent and then getting off and running. We even had a couple of bumps at the beginning, which I think I like to talk about here in a bit but you know, having that point of contact is how you get passed those bumps. I think that will resonate really well. So I appreciate you sharing that.

[0:06:49.9] NF: It was a really good way for us to initiate a process that we felt like we had studied and talked about but didn’t really know what to do and had never been through before.

[0:07:02.8] KF: Right.

[0:07:03.3] NH: Makes a lot of sense, I like that. One of the things that I think people are talking about right now that I think is kind of scary, especially when you’re thinking about getting started is that “current market” right? High-interest rates, lower inventory, do you feel like those were a factor, a barrier to you guys buying your first home?

[0:07:18.8] KF: To some degree, especially the higher interest rates right now because you know, we had this idea of you know, we have this wide range that we are able to buy from and so then looking at our interest rate and talking to our realtor, we were able to decide like, “Okay, we need to look at this you know, lower end spectrum” to say, “You know, we’re comfortable with this monthly payment” because of the interest rates. I feel like we didn’t really run into like low inventory in our area. I mean, hundreds of houses that were for sale but again, it was making sure that they were within our budget, that we had kind of decided on, that we were comfortable with paying like every month.

[0:08:01.4] NF: Yeah, and we’ll talk about this more in a moment but there was definitely, Kaitie was doing more of the house watching and there was a decent amount of turnover even though there were constantly houses up, they weren’t staying on the market in general for very long and what we realize, so what Kaitie was alluding to is we kind of had a number for total purchase price that we thought we would be able to get to. And then we realized that it was less about total purchase price and more about what our monthly payment would be because you know, we’ve worked with YFP for years on thinking about like a zero-based budget and you know, you can have whatever purchase price you want but if that monthly payment doesn’t fit within what you can reasonably do and right now, we’re a one-income household, you know, that was the number that we needed to focus on more.

So once we realized that, the thing about the market in our area that I came to realize was that it’s not homogenous, that different neighborhoods, even different sides of the same highway, obviously different school districts and things like that, there is a wide variety in terms of what you were going to see in price per square foot and stuff like that and thinking about us, for our family, you know we’re thinking about possibly private school for the kids. So public school district wasn’t as important in considering these things, we actually shifted our focus to a different area within our geographic region that’s really only like, five minutes away or so from – at least, in terms of distance – from my work from where we are now and where we had been looking and that made a big difference in terms of the length of time that houses were staying on the market and their cost per size.

[0:09:48.8] NH: It totally shows how local real estate is, right? It can be different 20 minutes away, 10 minutes away sometimes. Just like you said, you know if you shift that locust of search from a five-minute geographic area to a different five-minute geographic area, you’re going to get totally different results. So that’s good to hear that you know, I think you guys went into it with the right mindset but were able to shift as you started to learn more and see what made sense in terms of the areas you were looking in and the numbers and ultimately, that monthly payment is what made that determination, so that’s cool. Did you lose out on any houses? I know you said that the inventory was turning over quickly, did you lose out on any houses or anything? I mean, I know a lot of people are struggling with that right now.

[0:10:26.8] KF: The first couple of houses that we looked at were super early in our process. We kind of went into them thinking you know, we probably aren’t going to put an offer on these but we want to get the feel for actually physically going with our agent to a house and looking at it and seeing what that feels like but I think both of those houses went off the market that night. Like, the night that we looked at them, they went off the market.

[0:10:49.2] NF: And both of them, we went there and either someone was already showing when we got there or someone showed up to show before we left. So that was in the initial “hotter market” near our geographic area but even though we weren’t planning necessarily to make an offer that early in the process, it did give me some trepidation. This feeling like, “Oh man, when we find the right house, we have to move really, really fast or we’re going to lose out on it.” You know, that’s how it made me feel, that was my initial impression to the market, these houses just gone.

[0:11:29.1] NH: I think a lot of people feel that way and it can feel more overwhelming, especially if you’re like, looking at a house and someone shows up and you know, waiting for you to leave so they can go look at it. That feeling is like, I’m with you. I totally get it.

[0:11:39.2] KF: It was a little scary there first, you know, not knowing if we were going to be able to get the house that we wanted.

[0:11:44.5] NH: But I like your approach of you know, even though we’re not maybe a hundred percent ready or these aren’t houses that we’re a hundred percent certain on. It’s nice to go through the process, walk through the steps, and understand that, what that looks like so that when you were ready, when that house did pop up and come along, you can make the action point very quickly. So I think that was a smart move, that makes a lot of sense. You know, so talking about looking at houses then the big thing that I think people run into at that point too is, “Okay, well now, I’m ready to look at homes, I figured out my budget, you know, all these pieces are in place but what about financing?” I think that paying for a new house is a pretty overwhelming part of the process. How did you navigate that I guess and what did that look like for you guys?

[0:12:20.1] NH: So through our local realtor contact, we first were talking to her about – we had talked with YFP over the years about the different options available to healthcare professionals like pharmacists, you know the “physician style loans” or healthcare professional loans, whatever and particular institution chooses to call them and we’d said, “Hey, you know, this is something we’re interested in because we’re pretty sure we qualify and do you know anyone who does this?” and she got a contact that she was pretty sure did. So that was the first bank loan officer that we talked to and separately, through YFP, we had a resource that let us look by our state and my degree, which is pharmacy, PharmD, and see what banks have the pharmacist included in their physician-style loan programs. So we kind of had that list and then we had this contact and we worked through the process of pre-approval and kind of talking about some of the things and we actually found out that that bank didn’t routinely include pharmacists. The loan officer was super great, she felt like she could get us an exception and essentially get us one of those style loans, and then the week that we went to get that pre-approval all the way through, get that loan kind of nailed down was the week that there was some kind of like banking crisis, some bank in California.

[0:13:53.0] NF: Collapsed?

[0:13:53.4] NH: Collapsed. Yeah.

[0:13:54.4] NF: Something like that.

[0:13:55.6] NH: I remember.

[0:13:57.1] NF: And so that bank institutions were not doing any exceptions right now.

[0:13:59.7] KF: Yeah, they completely locked on exceptions for all of their loans.

[0:14:02.4] NF: So she put together the best custom loan that she could do for us and we went ahead and got that pre-approval but even she said like, “You should talk to another lender and see what they can offer you.” So then we went back to that list that we had through the resource from YFP and talked to one of those lenders and they, who did explicitly include pharmacists in their healthcare professional loan program and we went through the process with them as well of getting pre-approved. Now, their pre-approval was a little more vague in terms of what the interest rate would be in things. It was a lot of like, “You’re pre-approved but you won’t know any details until you give us like a purchase price and a date” kind of thing.

[0:14:49.3] KF: Yeah.

[0:14:53.1] NF: So we actually ended up going all the way through the process, getting to the point of making an offer, starting off with bank B, and then when we got the final numbers, it was not good.

[0:15:04.3] KF: They were terrible.

[0:15:05.6] NF: They were not good compared to bank A, and so we ended up switching lenders in that final week of between putting in the offer and having the offer accepted. We ended up switching lenders because everything across the board between the two offers was better for bank A, even though it didn’t end up being explicitly like a physician-style loan program. So that was surprising to me, it definitely wasn’t something I was expecting. I also didn’t fully realize before the process that pre-approvals only last for a certain period of time and because they’re a hard check on your credit, you obviously don’t want to go and get pre-approved at like 10 different places. It was definitely a process but we started with our local realtor to get someone that she was familiar with and had worked with before and that’s ultimately where we ended up back and so that ultimately was a good experience but there was definitely some angst. Once we started getting –

[0:16:06.4] KF: To put it lightly.

[0:16:08.0] NF: Once you started getting those final numbers from the second place that on paper, should have been better.

[0:16:13.4] KF: Better for us.

[0:16:14.1] NF: But again, we’re really focusing on like, “What is that monthly payment going to be?” Of course, we were talking about like PMI, we were going to like have to have PMI with the second place and I don’t really know why. One of the big distinctions with those healthcare professional loans is the amount that you need to put down in a down payment and we’re going to have to put down a lot more for Bank B. So like all of these things, again, just everything across the board ended up being better for Bank A. So I’m so glad that we talked to them first and had the option. That’s the bottom line is have at least two, maybe even three options because as long as your pre-approval is still valid, you should be able to pick the best option that fits you.

[0:16:56.0] NH: So many good nuggets in there and I want to make sure we highlight a few because I think you guys hit the nail on the head on all that stuff, right? So point one that I want to highlight is shop the lender, right? Talk to multiple lenders, don’t just buy into one person and lock into it. I am notorious for this. I will like, convince myself that once I’ve had a decision that like, I’m just going to stick with it because I’ve already made a decision, and even if it’s the bad one, I don’t care like I’m in, right? Don’t be me on that, right? Shop lenders upfront, that’s super smart.

Then, what I loved too is that you mentioned about changing the lenders along the way. So many people don’t realize you can do that, right? Even when you’ve put an offer in already, with the pre-approval letter, you can go back and get a different lender after the fact, right? You can’t be a week away from closing and change lenders but if it’s still early enough in that process even after the contract’s been accepted, you can change lenders. So definitely approach it for you guys on that and then the other thing you mentioned too was the hard credit checks. I advise my clients, any time they’re shopping around, try to do all of your pre-approval shopping within a two-week period that will ensure you only get one credit check. It will basically you know, trunk it down to one credit check across all those lenders, and then if you have to re-up your letter in three months, you know, you can do that for another poll but at least it won’t hurt your credit nearly as much.

So really, really good stuff you guys mentioned in there, I love that.

[0:18:10.4] NF: Well good, because we learned it by doing it.

[0:18:12.7] KF: As we were doing it.

[0:18:14.5] NH: It wasn’t that we knew it going in, which again is the point of this conversation.

[0:18:18.6] NF: Yeah, that’s exactly why I wanted to talk about this stuff because it’s those things that you don’t even know to ask those questions until you’re in the middle of it and then you learn it, you’re like, “Oh, wish I would have known this.” So yeah, I’m glad we’re covering this. Talking a little about the lender piece, you’ve mentioned your real estate agent a few times. We talk a lot here at YFP about using a team, right? Especially when making a financial decision, especially in the world of pharmacy, you know just about everything can benefit from that team approach. Were there other people on your team or were there key pieces of your team that you felt like were essential that maybe we haven’t mentioned or anything you want to highlight within the team that we’ve already touched on?

[0:18:51.0] NF: When you think that you know, it started with our YFP financial planners and so we’ve worked with YFP for three and a half years about. We started early 2020, actually just pre-COVID, which was a really fun time.

[0:19:04.3] KF: Yeah.

[0:19:04.9] NF: To get started, we were actually a week away from refinancing our student loans when the lockdown hit and everything. So I mean, we were on the cusp. So all that to say just to give people some context, so we’ve had three different people that we’ve worked with as our one-on-one financial planner and we actually started with Tim Baker, which is a ton of money.

[0:19:25.7] KF: Yes, it was.

[0:19:26.6] NF: And so along the way with all three of them, we’ve talked about our goals and we’ve talked about home buying, so it always started there and we definitely went there first to get in contact with you. You got us in contact with our local real estate agent. Our local real estate agent got us in contact, like I said, with our loan officer. Those were really the main people. They kind of facilitated most of the communication with all of the other, to use medical lingo, all the other consultants, if you will. We did a little bit of emailing back and forth with like a title agent and some things like that but I don’t feel like I knew those other people the way that I feel like we knew and talked a lot with our loan officer and our realtor.

[0:20:14.4] KF: Yeah.

[0:20:15.0] NH: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and I know we touched on this a couple of times but you know, you guys used the home-buying concierge service that we offer here at YFP, and for those who haven’t heard about it maybe, basically it’s a free service that we offer, not just to planning clients but to anybody who’s interested. You can go right to our website, yourfinancialpharmacist.com, and click on “buy a home” and right there, you can sign up for a call with me. A 30-minute phone call or less, we can talk about your goals, we can talk about what you want to achieve, kind of home you want to buy, and then we’ll get you connected with a great real estate agent and something we really like to be upfront on here, right? Is like it’s not always perfect, right? So we’re pretty good at what we do, matching people up with great agents but sometimes the communication isn’t there upfront. So when we connected with you guys with the first agent, somebody that we’ve actually used in the past for other clients and has been fantastic the communication just wasn’t there, right?

[0:21:05.2] KF: At very first, things were fine. You know, we email back and forth, we were trying to set up a date to have a not really face-to-face but –

[0:21:12.9] NF: A more in-depth.

[0:21:14.1] KF: Like a more in-depth –

[0:21:14.8] NF: First conversation.

[0:21:15.6] KF: Conversation to get to know each other a little bit and what we’re kind of looking for and I had told her, “You know, we’re free at these three or four days the following week” and I never heard back from her and two weeks go by and I still haven’t heard back from her. I’ve reached out a couple of other times and so then we reach back out to you, Nate, and we’re like, “We don’t know what’s going on. We hope she’s okay but she’s not responding to anything. So what do we do?” and you were like, “You know, I’ll reach out to her, see if we can get you guys back in contact. If not, let me know and we’ll move on from here.” I was like, “Okay, great” and then we still didn’t hear from her.

So then you got us in contact like the very next week with our current real estate agent and she has been absolutely amazing. You know, she’s been very responsive, she’s been easy to communicate with, almost overly so. You know, there have been a couple of times that she’ll email us back and you know, “As soon as I get back from the gym, I’ll call you and do this, this, and this” and like, “Wow, you do not have to email me while you were working out but okay, thank you.”

[0:22:26.2] NH: Yeah, that’s good and it just shows that like you know, real estate is like any other business, right? There are good people and bad people within every business and there are good times and bad times for those same people, right? These are agents that we’ve worked with in the past and it just maybe there is something going on with their life that doesn’t work and this isn’t the right time for that connection to take place. So one of the things we really try to focus on with the concierge service is not just giving you an agent and walking away but being part of that team, right? YFP stays a part of your team the whole way so that if you do have that, we can come back, get you reconnected, and get you on the right path.

So again, I like to be really transparent with these conversations and tell people exactly what it’s like because it’s not as easy as picking up the phone, calling the first agent with the most highest reviews and then you get off and run, right? It doesn’t always work out that way, so I’m glad we get to share that story a little bit and it sounds like once you guys got off and actually looking at houses, it was the right fit and you guys were able to close, right?

[0:23:20.5] KF: Yeah.

[0:23:20.8] NF: Yeah, absolutely. Everything went well from there and honestly, like probably would have been fine because we were starting very early in the process but just again, with so much uncertainty and ignorance, for lack of a better term, on our part we wanted to start really early because we didn’t actually even know if that was early. We thought maybe six, seven months from our target buy date might have been late. We didn’t know and so that’s why we were really keen to start having conversations with someone and so that’s why we’re willing to go ahead and make a connection with someone who’s going to be able to interact and respond to us right then. So it was really nice, like you said, to have that lifeline of being able to come back to you, Nate, and say, “Hey, is there another direction we can go?”

[0:24:09.3] KF: Yeah.

[0:24:09.7] NH: Happy to do it. I mean, now that you’ve worked with an agent and again, gotten to the closing process. Are there tips you have for people out there that might be vetting their own agents or maybe not using our concierge service, like things that you think are super important to have as part of – as a good real estate agent?

[0:24:24.0] KF: I mean, I think we already said it a couple of times but I mean, being able to have clear and responsive communication.

[0:24:31.3] NF: Yeah, reasonably responsive, you know? I don’t need my realtor text if I send an email at midnight because I’m up just worried and thinking about something, I don’t need you to respond at 1:00 in the morning that kind of thing but you know accessible was certainly a thing, especially because there were times, there were parts of the process that we were working through on weekends, in the evenings. That week of like putting in the offer and getting the offer accepted was a very hectic four to six days and it felt like we were emailing and communicating and doing stuff –

[0:25:08.6] KF: Phone calls, texting.

[0:25:09.5] NF: Finding any paperwork, getting the paperwork signed.

[0:25:11.8] KF: Scanning stuff.

[0:25:12.7] NF: Doing all of this stuff nonstop for that whole week.

[0:25:16.4] KF: For that six days, yeah.

[0:25:18.0] NF: So you know, that’s important but I’d say the other piece and you can speak to part of this honey, is like having an agent who’s really listening to what it is that you’re looking for in a home not just in terms of price and that’s the piece you can speak to but also you know, if you’re saying or you’re finding, that was something we found things that were important to us that we didn’t realize were important to us once we started looking at homes and actually picturing our self living there with our family. You know, so the simple example for us is like we really wanted a fenced-in backyard, you know, just the idea of like being able to tell the boys, “Okay, go outside and play” and not have to worry about wildlife or somebody’s dog or whatever, you know?

As I started looking at different houses, some that had it and some that didn’t, I found that that was important to me and we were able to communicate to our realtor that. And then when you see that they’re responsive and they start then bringing you homes that match what it is that you’re saying that you want and what you’re finding that you want, I think that is really key. You know, if you are working with someone and they’re continually bringing things to you that are outside of your price range or not matching what you say you’re looking for, then that person for whatever reason may not be the right agent for you to find your home because it’s about you finding your home.

[0:26:48.7] KF: Right. Our agent said that to us a couple of times. She goes, “Well, this is not my home. So you know, if you like this that’s great.” That was really fun to hear her say that. What Neal was eluding to earlier was when we had initially talked to her, we had this really broad price range that we were looking at and you know she’s like, “All right” so she put it into her system and was able to email me houses to look at. Once we got closer and we were seeing, “Okay, these houses are probably way out of our comfortable price range” I emailed her and I said, “Hey, let’s change that filter to this price range” and she did it that day and I never received a house after that that was over that price range. So that was really, really nice to see her be responsive in that way, especially that quickly.

[0:27:39.3] NH: That’s great, I love it. I appreciate you guys giving that synopsis because I think those are all super important pieces and things that, like you said really well, it’s the things you don’t realize until after you’ve gone halfway down the process, you’re like, “Oh man, this is important and I didn’t know it’s important.” So that’s really key. So I want to go back really quickly to one other thing you mentioned about that crazy six days that you mentioned, right? So after the sort of like place is under contract, now what? Anything really stick out in there, things like tips you would give to people? I know it’s a ton of hurry up and wait and 30 people are emailing you that you don’t know any of them and they all need documents from you, right? I always know that process is hectic. Any tips or words of advice you can give to our audience that like, “Hey, do this upfront so that the six days aren’t as crazy.”

[0:28:23.8] KF: Well, it’s something that we did really early on in the process with our agent before we had even looked at a house at all was ask her for all the papers that we’d be seeing at closing. So she emailed us all the blank documents, we were able to read through those. We were kind of half-familiar with them by the time we were actually signing them so that we weren’t totally drowning in all that information all at once. So that was something really good that we were able to do but then I feel like something else that we were able to do was utilize our real estate agent and say, “Okay, what does this mean? Why are we doing this? You know, is this reasonable to ask the buyers for this or the sellers for this?” or whatever. Just utilize those resources that are right there that are helping you through the process anyway.

[0:29:11.2] NF: Yeah, I’d say, you know, it’s really easy to get overwhelmed and one thing that you definitely should do is actually sit down ideally together if you’re a couple and read the documents that you’re about to sign because sometimes, there might be things in there that you don’t either understand or didn’t expect. You know, if they say that they’re taking all the appliances out of the house and you didn’t know that –

[0:29:36.3] KF: That’s a big deal.

[0:29:37.6] NF: You need to know that. So that’s like a really simple thing, it’s very easy to skip over that and there were a couple of times where we were like, “Wait a minute, why is this number this? Shouldn’t it be different?” you know, we add a lot of communication about that. I didn’t realize our final closing cost changed multiple times because it’s like a projection and it had things in the projection and then they took them out and then they put them back in.

[0:30:03.7] KF: We thought they were a different price when they put them back in.

[0:30:05.6] NF: And we actually ended up scheduling our wire transfer for amount X and then it changed like 48 hours later and we had to call the bank and change the wire amount again, change it, and that was a little stressful, you know? Because we’re talking about a lot of money so you really don’t want to mess it up.

[0:30:22.5] KF: Right, that is where our loan officer came in. You know, I talked to her three or four times on the phone a week of closing and she was very, very good about walking me through like, “Okay, this is what’s happening right now, this is why the amount says this. This is what it should be closer to actual closing” and again, communicating with her and having her be accessible as well was really good for us not to get lost in the process.

[0:30:50.5] NF: Yeah, if you see something weird or you have a question, you should ask. If you don’t feel comfortable asking, you should take a big step back if that’s a big red flag. It is too big of a decision to go into it not knowing and understanding a lot of it. Now, that being said, I felt like when we actually finally signed our documents electronically, there was like a whole set. I mean, we did a physical signing part too, that was fine.

[0:31:16.4] KF: That was it.

[0:31:16.8] NF: There was like this whole section that was basically like, what is a home loan for dummies, and all this terminology. I was like, “Why isn’t this the first thing they send you?”

[0:31:26.7] KF: Yeah, why isn’t this the first thing that you read?

[0:31:28.6] NF: Somebody take these last 20 pages and just send it to me at the beginning and that would have made things a lot easier but overall, you know because we felt very comfortable asking questions and we just did, we just asked questions all the time.

[0:31:42.0] KF: I sent so many emails and so many text messages.

[0:31:45.2] NF: That helped. I mean, being organized, you know we had a lot of our documents saved like in a folder on the computer for like home purchase documents. That made it really because you’re going to have to upload a million things. Even something as simple as if you have the ability to scan documents, if you are printing them manually, signing them, or you have the ability to sign things electronically, you will make that process go a lot faster. If you have you know, a touch screen device and a PDF editor that you can sign right there, you know, like that is so much faster than printing and signing and going to the library and faxing it to yourself, so whatever.

[0:32:23.2] KF: Yeah, you know whatever you have to do.

[0:32:25.1] NF: You know, whatever you have to do to get all that paperwork done, it’s quite a process. Yeah, so it was fun for lack of a better word and we got all the way to the physical signing and it really was what everybody tells you like you’re going to sit there for an hour and a half and sign documents and get a cramp in your hand. Something that was interesting like we never ever saw our sellers. Like they had done everything ahead of time and just have like their representatives there.

[0:32:49.8] KF: Yeah, they’d pre-signed.

[0:32:51.4] NF: Kind of wasn’t expecting that but it did made a difference. There was even like a little hiccup at our closing, where the title company wasn’t sure that we had actually given them earnest money and we had and so then there’s –

[0:33:04.9] KF: Well and our loan officer was at our closing and she was like, “We definitely have this on file, we sent this to you.”

[0:33:10.7] NF: You know, so and if the title company, you know they have just like someone that they’ve hired, a third party like be there to do all that process so –

[0:33:18.8] KF: She has no idea, she doesn’t know us at all. She doesn’t know anything.

[0:33:21.9] NF: Yeah, she just has a file that’s like four inches thick with all of their documents and these notes in it, so then she’s talking to the title company people and they’re talking to the realtor and you know –

[0:33:34.5] KF: And they’re talking to the bank and we’re just sitting there like, “Okay, better run snacks to the boys.”

[0:33:40.4] NF: It all worked out but all that to say, I think that’s to say you know, do as many preparations as you can but don’t be surprised when –

[0:33:48.5] KF: Surprises come up.

[0:33:50.2] NF: Unexpected that you know, expect the unexpected because it is a very long complicated process and you will almost certainly run into something that you didn’t think about before or you haven’t heard that term or whatever.

[0:34:04.5] KF: Yeah.

[0:34:04.9] NH: Well, I really like the expectation setting, right? Like this is going to be a little crazy, be prepared for that and all the other prep work, the tips that you guys gave and I think creating a file in your computer that’s a great one. Being able to save documents because you might have to send them multiple times, referencing them, right? In case you did send the earnest money, you’ve got a document that says, “Hey, look, this is here” just in case someone else didn’t have access to that. So again, really great tips and it’s very clear that you guys have been through the process because I’m thinking about all these pieces like, “Oh yeah, I remember that. Oh yeah, that’s a problem. Oh yeah, I see my clients running into that.” So you guys are not alone and again, it’s nice to hear hopefully for some of our audience just how overwhelming it can seem but how you can make it through with a little bit of prep work and access to good resources.

So I really appreciate you guys hearing your story today, giving some first-time homebuyers out there some confidence that they can make it through and get to where you guys are now and again, just congrats on the new home, and seriously, thank you for sharing your story. It’s been awesome.

[0:35:01.6] KF: Yeah, thank you for having us.

[0:35:02.2] NF: Hey, thanks for having us.

[0:35:03.2] NH: Yeah, take care guys.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:35:04.3] TU: Nate and I have covered a ton of information in this podcast. So imagine working with Nate one-on-one through your home-buying journey and having his support to give you much-needed peace of mind. We know many pharmacists want to feel confident about big financial decisions including a home purchase. So if you have fears of being house forked, concerns about the impact a home purchase might have on your other financial goals, Nate and his home-buying concierge service can help all at no cost to you. You can visit realestaterph.com or click on the link in the show notes to schedule your free 30-minute jumpstart planning session with Nate.

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:35:43.6] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information on the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post, and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 302: Navigating the Mortgage Market: Insights from a Loan Officer

Posted on by Caitlin Boyle

On this episode, sponsored by First Horizon, Tony Umholtz talks about navigating the mortgage market, important factors home buyers should understand when evaluating lending options, the anatomy of a home loan, and when to engage with a lender in the home-buying process.

About Today’s Guest

Episode Summary

In this episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, is joined by Tony Umholtz, a mortgage manager at First Horizon. In this episode, Tim taps into Tony’s 20+ years of experience in the industry to discuss important factors home buyers should understand when evaluating different lending options, the anatomy of a home loan, and when to engage with a lender in the home-buying process. Tony opens the conversation with an update on the state of the lending market, with more interest in buying homes, but the market remains competitive with low inventory. An overview of the different loan types is covered, along with their nuances and situations where each is applicable. First-time home buyers will learn how much of a down payment may be needed based on the current options available, the term options for loans, and when 30, 20, or 15-year mortgages make the most sense. Tony shares his thoughts on lending options outside fixed-rate products and when they can be advantageous. He also explains what points are, how they work, and the importance of understanding how they are baked into introductory rate offers. As the show wraps, listeners will hear a frank exchange, where Tim and Tony discuss the impact of current events and bank uncertainty on financing a home purchase.

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

INTRODUCTION

[00:00:00] TIM ULBRICH: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I welcome back onto the show Tony Umholtz, a Mortgage Loan Officer with First Horizon. During the show, I tap into Tony’s 20-plus years of experience in the industry to discuss the important factors that homebuyers should know when evaluating the different loan options that are available. We discussed the differences in down payment, how credit scores can influence the options available, fixed versus adjustable rate mortgages, and when purchasing points does and does not make sense.

Make sure to stay with us to the very end of the show where I asked Tony about the impact of current events on financing a home purchase, including the inevitable end of the student loan pause, whenever that may be, and the impact of the bank uncertainty, given the current news with Silicon Valley Bank, Signature Bank, First Republic, and most recently with the UBS purchase of Credit Suisse.

Now, before we jump into our discussion, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 280 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers fee-only, high-touch financial planning that is customized to the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about working one-on-one with a fee-only certified financial planner can help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Mortgage Loan Officer from First Horizon, Tony Umholtz.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:46] TIM ULBRICH: Does saving 20% for a down payment on a home feel like an uphill battle? It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high student loan debt, meaning that saving 20% for a down payment on a home may take years. We’ve been on a hunt for a solution for pharmacists that are ready to purchase a home loan with a lower down payment and are happy to have found that option with First Horizon.

First Horizon offers a professional home loan option, a.k.a. doctor or pharmacist home loan, that requires a three percent down payment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time homebuyers, has no PMI, and offers a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage on home loans up to $726,200. The pharmacist home loan is available in all states, except Alaska and Hawaii, and can be used to purchase condos as well. However, rates may be higher, and a condo review has to be completed.

Tony, welcome back to the show.

[00:03:01] TONY UMHOLTZ: Tim, good to be here. Thanks for having me.

[00:03:03] TIM ULBRICH: Well, it’s officially the start of spring. So at the time of recording this, yesterday was the first day of spring. Typically, that means it’s prime time for home-buying. Current state of the market, we’d love to hear your thoughts. You shared something with me prior to hitting record about existing home sales being up more than was projected, which to be frank, surprised me a little bit, just given what we’ve been hearing of a lack of inventory that’s out there. So what are you seeing in terms of the current market?

[00:03:33] TONY UMHOLTZ: Well, I think we were in a very slow environment the last few months. When retail or the existing home sales were higher, it was from the month of January. So January was a low month, and I think it was at kind of a bottom level. But economists had predicted like almost 400,000 less units then actually sold. So I think the market is showing some underlying strength that the economists had predicted.

Frankly speaking, with spring here, we’re busy. I mean, there’s a lot of people reaching out for pre-approvals right now. I mean, rates are certainly higher than they were last year at this time. But we’re seeing a lot of people interested in buying a home. But still, inventory is fairly tight, like we discussed earlier.

[00:04:19] TIM ULBRICH: Tony, for today’s show, I want to focus on prospective homebuyers and what they need to know in order to navigate the mortgage market and to make a decision on ultimately how they’re going to finance that home purchase. The question of why is this important, right? For starters, this is one of the, if not the, biggest financial purchase that they’re going to make. Obviously, they’re going to want to feel comfortable in understanding what their options are or want to feel good about the decision that they’re making from a financing standpoint.

Second, I often hear from prospective pharmacist homebuyers, especially first-time homebuyers that are confused and overwhelmed about all the options that are out there; conventional VA, FHA, doctor-type loans, points, no points, 15 years, 30 years, fixed rates, ARMs. We want to clear up as much of that as we can, again, with a goal that folks will feel educated and informed as they’re going forward with that home purchase.

Let’s jump in by dissecting some of the lending options and the features that are associated with those options. So, Tony, at a high level, I mentioned a few of them that are out there. What are the types of loans that are available when people are considering the financing of a home?

[00:05:34] TONY UMHOLTZ: There’s really several loans that are very common that you’ll see in the marketplace. Number one is FHA loans, Federal Housing Administration loans. Also, the Veterans Administration for those that have served in the military, VA loans. So you hear a lot about those. Then, of course, conventional loans, which are basically backed by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. So when you hear those two large government-sponsored entities, that’s what conventional loans are.

There’s also nichey loans, niche loans that are offered. Typically, they’re not mainstream. They’re typically offered through banks, some financial institutions that will offer them for, for example, like the product for pharmacists that’s available for pharmacists, doctors, attorneys. There’s some nichey programs available based on your occupation. A lot of those loans are held on the bank’s balance sheet. So they’re not a program that would be openly sold on the open market.

You’ll hear a lot about those programs, and each one has its own benefits. It’s important to know where you stand. So when you go through a pre-approval process, it’s a great way to get educated on where you stand. Even before that, you can find some information online. You can learn more about these different programs.

But, typically, for example, FHA loans are going to have a limit for the market that you’re buying in. Let’s say you’re purchasing Hillsborough County, Florida, for example. They’re going to have a max loan limit of, let’s say, roughly 400,000. You can’t go above that number for FHA on a single-unit property.

Now multiple units, you can do higher loan amounts. So a four-unit property can be higher. FHA is great for certain things. The one downside of FHA is that it’s permanent PMI, lifetime PMI. You can never get rid of it, although they did reduce it recently. But it’s still a lifetime PMI. You can never get –

[00:07:29] TIM ULBRICH: I learned that one the hard way, unfortunately.

[00:07:33] TONY UMHOLTZ: Yes. So there is some downsides there. I do like the FHA when credit scores are a little weak because I can get better pricing than I can on a conventional loan. Then conventional, of course, does not have permanent PMI, has a little bit higher loan amounts for the county. Most counties in the US are 726, 200, so a little higher loan amounts. In some counties in the higher cost areas are actually a little bit more than that.

Conventional has got PMI that only has to be on for two years. Sometimes, you can get it off, pulled off less, if you put more money down during the loan process. It doesn’t have upfront PMI like FHA. So there’s a lot of benefits to conventional. The niche programs, of course, you have to be a pharmacist, doctor, attorney. Those type of programs are going to be more unique to one group. But those are, obviously, going to typically be better and stronger than any of the products you can – the FHA and conventional. When you compare the two, they’re typically going to be stronger.

But we always look at every option. That’s one thing that we’d love to do is say, okay, let’s compare it and stack rank what the best products are today for this client. We’ll come up with the best solution, and most lenders work that way.

[00:08:47] TIM ULBRICH: I’m glad you brought up the FHA to kick that off because what I see and what I hear from a lot of pharmacists is depending on where they live, and obviously you mentioned the max loan amount, but I think they’re often thinking first-time pharmacist homebuyers, “How do I get into a home and minimize my down payment? Because I’ve got $200,000 student loans. I’m starting a family. I’ve got all these other competing priorities.”

They may end up down an FHA pathway, which maybe is the best option but maybe not, and they may not be aware of an option like a pharmacist home loan that could get them into a home at a reasonable down payment. Obviously, credit score is a factor that we’ll have to consider, and we’ll talk about that again here in a few moments. But allows for that lower down payment, a little bit higher on the purchase price potential, which obviously in today’s market is an important factor but doesn’t carry the PMI, especially the permanent PMI you mentioned with the FHA.

Take home point that I really hear there, Tony, is when you’re working with an individual such as yourself, working with someone that is looking at what is the best option for you and your personal situation, looking at potential purchase price, looking at down payment that you’re bringing, looking at credit score and really being able to customize the offering for that individual and their own situation.

I want to break down down payment a little bit further because that is probably the biggest pain point I hear from first-time pharmacist homebuyers, which is maybe they’re familiar with the traditional, “Hey, I’ve got to have 20% down.” Not aware of other options that may be out there. That can be a big overwhelming number when it comes to purchasing a home at 400,000; 500,000; 600,000 dollars.

So the question of do I need 20% down, you’ve talked about that a little bit already. But talk to us more about why that may not always have to be the case with other options that are available.

[00:10:43] TONY UMHOLTZ: When you’re looking at purchasing a property, 20% down and a great metric because you get out of PMI for a conventional loan. But it’s also a lot of capital, putting a lot of investment into your home. Then that can dilute the returns you get on your own long-term because leverage enhances returns, but it also takes away from savings and everything else.

So there are programs available. For example, the FHA, I’m going back to FHA, you can put as little as three and a half percent down. Now, you do have heavy PMI. You do have lifetime MI, upfront MI that’s added to the loan amount. There are those other things. But you can get into the home with just three and a half percent.

The pharmacist product and some conventional products, now some of these conventional products do have PMI. But sometimes, they’re priced pretty well. But you can do three, five percent down. These programs, you’re coming into it with very little, little, little down. PMI in the conventional sense, you will have a PMI premium every month. But the pharmacist product, no PMI at all.

So you put three percent down, five percent down. That’s impactful because you’re – and you’re allowed to have the seller pay your closing costs and prepaids, if you’re in a bit of a cash-strapped situation, I mean putting three or five percent down and having your closing costs and prepaids taken care of, pretty attractive. So those are available to pharmacists and physicians as well and then even normal everyday folks on the conventional side. Three, five percent down, an ordinary buyer can take advantage of that.

There are some programs for certain counties if you meet – and most of your audience will be above the median income for the county. But there’s even some programs offered if you’re below the median income, where there’s some additional benefits as well. This is a down payment assistance actually.

[00:12:37] TIM ULBRICH: So for folks who are saying they want to learn more about that pharmacists home loan product, as we mentioned in the introduction, you go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. We’ve got more information about that product with First Horizon, what are the different criteria. There’s an option on there to connect with us, and we can provide you with more information.

Tony, down payment, as I mentioned, gets the attention because I think that’s often what we’re thinking about or how much cash are we going to have to forego at the time of purchase. But what may not get as much attention or other parts of the loan if we dissect that a little bit further, so things like the term of the loan. I’m thinking about, obviously, fixed rate versus a variable rate, whether or not there’s points. We already talked about the PMI.

Let’s start with term. 30-year fixed rate I would assume is the most likely option that individuals are pursuing. But there are other options, 15-year term. I know I’ve seen 20-year terms. Are those the three that are typically used, and is the 30 the most common?

[00:13:39] TONY UMHOLTZ: Yes. Those are the three that are most common by far. 30-year is the most common. It gives you the most flexibility too from a payment perspective because you can always add additional principal. These loans, most loans don’t have any prepayment penalties. So you can always put more towards the loan. That typically is a good strategy. That gives you flexibility.

But the 15-year, the-20 year are – some people do choose them. It also depends on when you choose to retire, right? Or when you – if you think you’re going to hold the home long term. Everybody’s goals are different. Everyone’s circumstances are unique. So we look at their timing.

I had one client that said, “Hey, I’m going to be retiring in 15 years.” I think he’s like in his mid-40s, and that’s what we ended up doing for him because he wanted that 15-year to hold himself accountable. But I said by far the majority of people are opting for the 30-year. I think that that’s the better strategy because for the rate break you get, the flexibility is great. I just think having that flexibility is the most important thing. Cash flow –

[00:14:43] TIM ULBRICH: Cash flow.

[00:14:43] TONY UMHOLTZ: Is important.

[00:14:44] TIM ULBRICH: Yes.

[00:14:45] TONY UMHOLTZ: Yes. Because the one thing that clients have to understand and buyers have to understand is the shorter that term, there’s even a 10-year fixed, actually, 10 as well. But it’s a heavy payment because it’s amortizing so quickly. Amortizing, essentially, is just your principal pay down, right? It’s how rapidly you’re paying down the mortgage. So a 10-year fixed loan, you only have 120 payments, and that loan is totally paid for. So it’s a heavy monthly payment.

I think cash flow is really critical for everyone. I think that’s the best way to – because you can always add principal and pay the loan down quicker, right? But you can’t always – you can’t go back and say, “Darn, I wish I didn’t do that 15-year and have to pay that extra 2,000 a month.” You can be putting it into your IRA or somewhere else, paying down other debts.

[00:15:34] TIM ULBRICH: Yes. I think the options of cash flow. It’s something we hear from a lot of pharmacists, first-time homebuyers. I know it’s something my wife and I have talked about extensively, right, especially when you’re in that transitionary phase, where home prices now are more expensive than they’ve ever been. Rent rates are obviously higher. So those monthly payments, even at a 30-year, are going to be higher than they were just a few years ago, let alone at a 15 or a 10.

Student loans are coming back online. At some point here in the near future, we’ll talk about that in a little bit. Then just a lot of the expenses that come with that transitionary phase, a lot of folks that may be getting married. They’re having kids, right? They’re moving. So a lot of demands on cash flow. To your point, we can make bigger payments, and you can even automate those over time if you feel like, “Hey, I confidently can make this. I want to pay this down for whatever reason.” Maybe it’s, “Hey, I’m going to save a little bit of interest. I’m averse to the debt or I want to retire early.”

Whatever the rationale may be, you have that option. But you’re also giving yourself other options in the event that you need to have some of that cash flow, so well said. I think for those reasons, we see many folks go in with a 30 and perhaps some people that are making extra payments along the way.

What about the rate, Tony? I feel like when I was going through the refinance process pre-pandemic, refinancing a 30-year fixed rate, three percent. Maybe even a little bit lower for some folks at that point in time. Obviously, rates have gone up substantially. But in that moment, it felt like, and for the longest time, fixed rate, fixed rate, fixed rate. Lock it in for as long as you can. I’m curious to hear your thoughts now, given the interest rate environment we’re in. Options on adjustable rate mortgage versus a fixed rate. What are some things that folks should be considering here? As I do know, there are some other products out there that may be marketed towards pharmacist or physicians or other health care providers that aren’t a fixed-rate option.

[00:17:29] TONY UMHOLTZ: That’s right. Yes. I mean, there are ARM products out there. It’s interesting that they’re not super mainstream. They’re going to be more nichey because Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the pricing on ARMs is actually worse than a 30-year right now. There’s just no market for it, a secondary market.

But banks will retain it. We have some programs where we’ll write ARMs, and we’re appropriate. It’s a good product. It does carry a slightly lower rate than the fixed rates. I think this would be one of those times where I don’t think you would get hurt, potentially. But I think you got to know your risks, though. I mean, that the risks are what do rates do because, typically, the ARMs are structured 5, 7, or 10 years.

Now, when I first started in the industry, we used to have just outright one-month ARMs. I mean, 20 years ago, you would use ARMs we could write that were adjustable day one. They had some amazing rates made, but they really run with a cycle around BC. I these things move up and down. But I would call them more like a hybrid ARM. They’re fixed for 5, 7, or 10 years. So they do have a fixed-rate component. There’s still a 30-year loan. Some banks offer a balloon, which means you have to like redo the loan at that time. But those are fairly attractive, especially if you think you’re not going to be in the house for 5, 7, or 10 years. I think that’s something to look at.

The downside of those loans is if you are in the property, and it does start adjusting. The rate market is not favorable, but you’re going to be in a higher market, and rates are going up. It’s going to be harder to refinance. So there is some risks and tail risk there down the line that if you’re there in the home that it can move. So I’ve seen a move down. I’ve seen a move up.

Where we are in the economic cycle is tough right now. I think the Fed is pretty far into this tightening phase. We can address more of this later, Tim. But I think we could see some volatility in rates for a while, but there is potential for rates to go down, again, at some point. So I think anyone that does an ARM, I think inside of five years, there could be chances to refinance and do a 30-year again. So it’s not necessarily a bad loan if you’re willing to take a little bit of risk.

[00:19:40] TIM ULBRICH: I think understanding that risk, Tony, is really important, as well as being honest with yourself about your risk tolerance and what is that worth, as well as what margin may there or may there not be in the budget. We talked about this with student loans and days gone by when you might refinance from the Federal on the private side, especially if you’re looking at a variable rate over a fixed rate on the student loans. Understanding if that rate does go up or when that goes up. What margin do you have in your budget, and how do you feel about that being a fluid part of your monthly spending plan?

I think for some pharmacists, maybe many pharmacists, they look at it and say, “I want the known, so I can plan around it.” But I think in the spirit of talking about all the options that are out there and evaluating which one is best for you, it’s worth covering in more detail.

Tony, points. I’m seeing a lot of confusion out there right now around points. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think what’s happening is people are going out, and they’re Googling mortgage rates. They’re getting into a sales page, and what they’re seeing are rates that have points embedded. Unless you’re reading the fine print, you’re really not comparing apples to apples as you’re trying to find what might be the best rate out there for the product that you’re looking at.

So that’s just, I think, an unfortunate part of the practice if you’re not doing your homework. But what are points quickly, and how do they work, and why is it important that folks are understanding how these are baked into these introductory rate offers that they see?

[00:21:10] TONY UMHOLTZ: Yes. That is a great point, Tim. Basically, points are what the – most lenders do when they charge points is essentially just buying the rates down. So they’re offering you a certain rate at a certain – we call it par price, right? So they will say, “So for you to get this rate –” Let’s say it’s six percent today. You would need to pay a half point or one point, right? That can vary by lenders based upon their pricing. So that can vary.

But the one thing that that’s out there, and I think a lot of people miss this, is like the national headlines like week’s rate by Freddie Mac, right, which is old news anyway, except the last week’s rate. Rates change daily. They almost always include some sort of points in that quote almost every time.

[00:21:56] TIM ULBRICH: All the news headlines you’re seeing.

[00:21:58] TONY UMHOLTZ: Yes.

[00:21:58] TIM ULBRICH: Yes.

[00:21:59] TONY UMHOLTZ: Yes. If you read the fine print, it might say, “Hey, I had three-quarters of a point, which is point .75 percent of the loan amount.” So fairly expensive, right? Or one percent or one and a quarter. So typically, they quote the rates with some points. My stance on points and the way I typically try to charge them if people really want them is where it’s like upfront interest, so they can write it off on their taxes.

But in this environment, especially, I’m not a big advocate of points because there’s a good likelihood that rates are better over the next 24 months. I think why pay a premium now? Come in and pay your points when rates are a lot lower. Then you’d really can grab a nice low rate for the long-term. But you’re seeing a lot of quotes out there with points from lenders right now to make themselves look more attractive. A lot of home builder finance companies will do it as well.

The other thing in these what’s called 2-1 buydowns, which are really, in a lot of ways, a smoke and mirrors because what they’re doing is they’re giving you have a lower rate for the first year or two because you’re paying it all upfront in interest. So you’re paying a couple of points upfront to get that buydown. It’s a worse rate long-term. So that’s another thing. You’re loading up on interest. You’re paying it yourself. You might as well take the higher rates. You’re going to save money.

So there’s things like that that are out there. It’s just promotional ways, promotional products. But the points, again, it’s not a bad thing to do them because you typically will get a better rate than you would have if you didn’t pay points. But given the environment we’re in, I’m not a huge advocate. I’m just giving that you could save the money, and I think you’ll get it back later.

[00:23:43] TIM ULBRICH: Tony, something you said there has me thinking I want to preface my comments with this a little bit of conjecture, right? We don’t know what rates will or will not do. I agree with your thoughts that likely we’re going to see those come down in the next two years. Certainly, that’s not guaranteed. But my mind is spinning. If that happens, my mind was going down the path of, wow, like a flurry of refinances and people that have bought in this high-interest rate market that are trying to get a better rate.

But then also like what does that mean for what we started the show talking about that there’s not enough supply? Unless that rate comes down significantly, I don’t think it solves the issue of people that have a home locked in at 2.8, 2.9, 3 percent. If they come down even a point, point and a half, like it feels like that spread is still too significant.

So I don’t know. Maybe I’m being overdramatic, but it feels like we have some challenges ahead of us as it relates to the supply and demand, even though the rates might get better as a homebuyer. I hear that and think, “Great. I’m going to save a little bit on rates.” But that probably means that home prices are going up because demand is going up.

[00:24:49] TONY UMHOLTZ: That’s exactly right. I think we’re going to see that. I think most – not every market is the same. Some markets have more inventory than others. Some are more challenged. But I know just from my experience, and we learned across the country. I had a conversation this morning with a client, and they had to purchase the home without an inspection. It was that competitive. There was just no inventory where they were buying, and it was that competitive. So I think we’re going to go right back into that again.

I do think lower rates will help move some people because families can grow, right? They outgrow their home. There’s move-up buyers. People have to relocate, and builders will start building more inventory. But the challenge is just there isn’t enough people moving right now and putting their homes up for sale. So you’re exactly right. I think we’re going to start seeing it tighten up again. Prices are going to rise. Maybe not to the extent they were during the COVID boom, but I think you’re going to see prices rise.

I think the last six months have been a good time to buy. I think still even now is still a pretty good time because there’s still – it’s not everybody’s out there buying –

[00:25:58] TIM ULBRICH: It’s crazy.

[00:25:59] TONY UMHOLTZ: You could still get sellers. Sellers will listen to you right now. They’re a little spooked, right? If you’re selling, you’re going to be a little more spooked and a little more nervous. But I think there’s going to be a lot more buyers coming in as these rates drop. You’re right. I don’t think we’d see rates go down. I mean, we don’t know for sure. But I don’t see rates going to the high twos again. But they definitely – even coming down into the fours, even five is going to be a significant lift to the market, significant.

[00:26:28] TIM ULBRICH: I hear what you’re saying, right? There are some things that life happens. We’re in a two or three-bedroom home, and we’ve had a few kids. You’re going to push through that despite rates because those factors are that significant or relocation because of family or whatever.

But a piece we haven’t talked about, which also just hit my mind, is the impact of the remote work transition. I don’t have any stats to back this up, but I would think that that just inherently reduces the number of people that are moving as a result of a job transition or who could stay put and aren’t having to have to relocate, which might put some further pressure on the supply piece as well.

[00:27:09] TONY UMHOLTZ: Absolutely.

[00:27:09] TIM ULBRICH: Yes. There’s just a lot of factors, and we’re going to look back at this period one day and say, “Remember when all these things happened at the same time.” So I want to wrap up by picking your brain. I always appreciate, Tony, not only your 20-plus years of experience in this industry and your experience working with many pharmacists that are looking to purchase but also your mind around the economics of this and, of course, what’s going on in the markets right now. We’ve got some unique challenges.

Two that I want to focus on that I know are top of mind for our listeners right now. One is, hey, these student loans are coming back at some point. What does this mean, and how are lenders going to be looking at that? Then the second, I want to talk about some of the bank uncertainty that we’re living in real-time right now.

So let’s start with the student loans. We don’t know when yet. The Supreme Court heard the case on the Biden debt cancellation. We’re expecting an announcement. I think all signs are pointing to that’s going to restart payments here at some point. Right now, it’d be no later than the end of August, unless something changes as a result of that decision.

From a lender standpoint, we now have coming up for graduating classes, Tony, that have yet to have to pay on federal student loans. That also tends to be a group. They are usually first-time homebuyers. So debt-to-income ratios, how student loans are factored in, knowing that that pause is going to be ending, how are lenders thinking about this, especially for folks like our listeners, pharmacists that carry a pretty substantial debt load?

[00:28:46] TONY UMHOLTZ: That’s a great question. I think it’s just one of those things we look back at this time, right? It’s so unique. There’s a couple of ways that lenders look at these student loans. Number one, we look at that minimum payment, right? That minimum income-based repayment that is required. So that’s one way. The other way is we take a factor of that student loan amount, and the factors vary.

For example, we talked about FHA and conventional earlier. Their factors are pretty high. So it makes it much harder to qualify with those programs. Even though you’re not making a payment, your payment is zero, there’s still an actual factor that’s attached to that loan size. So it’s $200,000. It can be 2,000 a month that the lender is counting against you. So the factor we use for pharmacists on our product is much lower than that, but it’s still used. So that’s basically an internal factor is how banks will look at that typically.

It’s a tricky time. We don’t know what that outcome is going to be. So I would say right now, we’d be utilizing that factor or that income-based repayment, like what’s that amount going to be if you started paying in September or whatever it might be. But I would probably say for most people in that situation, we’ll be utilizing that factor, Tim, to qualify them.

[00:30:04] TIM ULBRICH: I want to poke a little bit more on that in terms of the factor or an income-driven repayment. Is that a general formula that a bank is using like, “Hey, $200,000 of student loan debt based on our calculation, income-driven repayment plan, would be X.” Or is it looking at the specifics bar to bar, right? Because we do have some of our listeners that might be employing a loan forgiveness strategy, where they’re working hard to lower their AGI to increase the amount that’s forgiven tax-free because it’s dropping down their income-driven repayment now. So they might be below like a generic calculation. How is that determined?

[00:30:42] TONY UMHOLTZ: It hasn’t gotten that far yet. That’s a great question because it’s still looked at like we’ll get a payment letter saying, “Okay, your monthly payment is going to be 400 a month.” That’s what we would use on the income-based from the servicer, from the student loan servicer. They would essentially provide the borrower with that number, what that amount is.

Now, the factors is used on the lump sum of student loans. You brought up a good point. Will it get there? I mean, FHA and conventional have a certain way of looking at things and Fannie Mae. I don’t know if that’s going to change. That could change. I think it should change based on that Supreme Court outcome. So that could affect those type of programs.

The more nichey bank programs, I think those would follow suit. They are more lenient, though, than Fannie and Freddie are and FHA as far as how much they would count. So like, for example, FHA, one percent, right? So $200,000, right, 2,000 a month. That’s a big hurdle to qualify in.

[00:31:40] TIM ULBRICH: Makes sense.

[00:31:40] TONY UMHOLTZ: That’s a big monthly payment. If your total debt ratio is 43%, that’s income to qualify. It makes it hard to afford a home. So that’s why these nichey programs are important for clients with big student loans.

[00:31:54] TIM ULBRICH: Yes, median debt load of a pharmacist today about 160. I think we’re going to see that drop maybe a little bit, just because of the pause on interest to credit while people are in school. But we have many clients, many folks we talk with on the regular that, sure, making a great income. But they’ve got 200,000; 250,000; 300,000 dollars of debt or maybe a household debt of 400,000 if you have two pharmacists together.

The second thing I wanted to pick your brain on and we don’t have to go into the weeds on the background of how we got to this point with the bank uncertainty. But if anyone’s been following the news at a high level, it’s been a tumultuous time, right? We saw what happened with Silicon Valley Bank in California a couple of weeks ago, followed by Signature Bank in New York. First Republic, at the time, what we know at this recording, was propped up with a $30 billion cash infusion from some other banks, still struggling after that infusion. UBS buying one of the major banks in Switzerland.

I hear all this, Tony. As a pharmacist, you might be buying a home and wondering, “What is the impact for me and this purchase that I’m trying to make? Is there a hesitancy to lend because of all that’s going on with the uncertainty, and what should I be aware of as a buyer?”

[00:33:09] TONY UMHOLTZ: Well, great questions. There is a lot going on, guys. There really is. I’ll try to unpack it as simply as I can. But to answer that question, I do think there are going to be challenges with lending. Some banks may be more cautious to lend, especially on portfolio products, these nichey products, if they’re in a challenging deposit situation. So you could see some challenges.

I did have one client. It was a physician that mentioned that the bank they were working with had stopped doing physician loans. So there are, I think, some banks that will pull back a little bit on lending. But for the most part, FHA, Fannie Mae, I mean, these loans are all backed by the government. There’s no liquidity issues there at all. The vast majority of banks are not going to have a challenge lending.

In these cases, and again we’re in a time very – there’s a lot of question marks with a lot of uncertainty because the Federal Reserve is aggressively raising rates. So these several banks you mentioned, Silicon Valley Bank, for example, was a risk management issue to some extent. I mean, they essentially were – not to get too far in the weeds, but they were a large regional bank. They serviced tech companies in Silicon Valley in California. So they were very nichey in the venture capital world.

It was basically a classic run on the bank in a more modern time, where they took their assets, their capital, and they invested it in treasury bonds, which are the safest bonds out there, right? The regulators allow that because they’re safe. You’re going to get paid back. But what they didn’t account for is the duration risk and the interest rate risk of holding long-term bonds. So basically, what happened is roughly $100 billion portfolio treasury bond is suddenly worth 70 billion or possibly a little less because of that hit to it with rates going up. When they had the demand for their deposits back, they couldn’t pay the depositors.

The other issue with that too is what’s called uninsured deposits. They had a vast amount of uninsured deposits where FDIC, which ensures a $250,000 deposit, they had a lot of tech institutions, venture capital funds that had a lot more money on balance that was not insured. It was basically that classic run. So that was Silicon Valley. Fairly similar with Signature Bank, just more in the New York real estate market, these are very nichey banks.

But I think there’s a lot of banks that are going to be affected. I just don’t think – we don’t know the extent of it yet. We don’t know what the Fed is going to do. But a lot of this is just risk management per institution and the fact that the Fed has just raised rates so quickly. I mean, it’s that simple, right? It’s reducing the liquidity in the system.

For your listeners and your viewers, it’s not going to impact you. There could be some nichey banks that pull back on their products, so you do have to watch that. But for the most part, it’s going to be business as usual for the vast majority of people out there.

[00:36:18] TIM ULBRICH: I think what’s worth watching is the ripple effect or the potential ripple effect, right? You mentioned not only of these banks but also what’s the Fed going to do going forward. How are they going to continue to fight inflation, while dealing with some of this uncertainty? We’re going to find out a little bit this week.

[00:36:32] TONY UMHOLTZ: Yes, we will.

[00:36:34] TIM ULBRICH: I think while these are niche banks, they’re not small institutions by any means. I think our listeners may be most familiar with First Republic of the group that’s listed. So while me and Ohio may not be actively putting money in a Silicon Valley Bank, and that seems like a niche far-off bank, there’s definitely a ripple effect that can happen. That is causing a lot of the anxiety and concern right now.

But also, these aren’t small institutions. So we’ll see kind of where things go forward, and stay tuned, and we’ll do our best job to bring this information to the community to make sure that they feel confident understanding what’s going on. But most importantly, how this impacts the decisions they’re making, like purchasing a home as we’re talking about here today.

Tony, as always, I appreciate your expertise, the value that you bring to the YFP community. We’ll mention and include in the show notes information where folks can connect with you. They can go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Get more information on the pharmacist home loan product offered by First Horizon and looking forward to more conversations throughout the year as well. So thanks for your time and for your expertise.

[00:37:47] TONY UMHOLTZ: Tim, always good to be with you. I always have fun. So thanks for having me.

[00:37:51] TIM ULBRICH: Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to, again, thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists in the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a three percent down payment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time homebuyers and has no PMI on a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[00:38:35] TONY UMHOLTZ: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you, again, for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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