Debt Free Stories / Podcast

YFP 376: From Student Debt to Financial Freedom: How Brandon Paid Off $160k

Posted on September 12, 2024September 9, 2024 by YFP Media

Brandon Gerleman, PharmD shares the strategy for how he paid off $160k of debt.

This episode is brought to you by APhA.

Episode Summary

Brandon Gerleman, a 2017 pharmacy graduate from the University of Iowa, shares his journey of paying off $160k of debt through not one, not two, but five refinances along the way. Brandon discusses his repayment strategy, why he decided for a more aggressive loan payoff, and what’s next for him and his family. He emphasizes the importance of living within your means, being aware of finances, and the impact of interest rates on repayment strategies. Brandon and his wife are now looking toward the future and he shares what other financial goals they are preparing for.

About Today’s Guest

Brandon Gerleman, PharmD is a 2017 graduate of the University of Iowa College of Pharmacy. He currently works as a Senior Product Manager on the Pharmacy Product Team at Outcomes, where he manages products to help pharmacists practice at the top of their training and provides tools to help drive pharmacy campaigns and increase efficiencies. After graduating in 2017 with $161,000 in student loan debt, he paid it off in May 2024. Brandon and his wife, Mariah, have 2 children and live in a rural community in Iowa. He enjoys spending time with his family, golfing, and watching Iowa Hawkeye football.

Key Points from the Episode

Brandon’s Passion for Personal Finance 1:36
Career Journey and Student Loan Debt 6:08
Refinancing Strategy and Financial Discipline 9:29
Balancing Financial Goals and Family Life 19:48
Future Financial Plans and Legacy 28:59

Episode Highlights

“Within that entire last seven years, though, I’ll say that we lived within our means, but we weren’t crunching pennies. We’re not in some fancy house. We’re within our means here. We still go on vacations with the kids. We still do fun things with the kids.” – Brandon Gerleman [20:59]

“For me and my wife, it was just like, how can we tackle the student debt and take that off our shoulders to then enable us to do more things? And it’s all about the family, and it was like trying to prepare for the future that way.” – Brandon Gerleman [21:38]

“At the end of the day, the math is the math, and we weren’t so aggressive, where we couldn’t do things. And we weren’t so passive, where the dollars kept loading on. So I think it was finding that right balance.” – Brandon Gerleman [22:34]

“We want to be able to live in the moment and celebrate and do things with our kids. I love the word intentional. Be very intentional about what we’re doing. We can still splurge on a Starbucks every now and then, right? You can still do things while living within your means and being intentional about how we’re how we’re approaching our student loan debt payoff.” – Brandon Gerleman [24:50]

“We’re always learning, I feel like the more aware we are around what’s happening. That’s why I was listening to all these Your Financial Pharmacist Podcasts back in pharmacy school, on fourth year rotations, and ever since, it’s just being aware. It’s always learning. It’s asking questions and trying to put ourselves in the best position for success.” -Brandon Gerleman [30:25]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody. Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, I welcome Brandon Gerleman onto the show, a 2017 pharmacy graduate from the University of Iowa and longtime listener of the YFP Podcast, to share his journey paying off $160,000 of debt through not one, not two, but five refinances along the way. We discuss his repayment strategy, why he decided for a more aggressive loan payoff, and what’s next for him and his family. Today’s episode of the YFP Podcast is brought to you by The American Pharmacists Association. APHA has partnered with YFP to deliver personalized financial education benefits for APHA members. Throughout the year, APHA will be hosting a number of exclusive webinars covering topics like student loan debt payoff strategies, home buying, investing, insurance needs and much more. Join APHA now to gain premier access to these educational resources and to receive discounts on YFP products and services. You can join APHA at a 25% discount by visiting pharmacist.com/join and using the coupon code YFP. Again, that’s coupon code YFP at pharmacist.com/join. All right, let’s jump into my debt free interview with Brandon Gerleman.

Tim Ulbrich 01:26

Brandon, welcome to the show.

Brandon Gerleman 01:28

Hey. What’s going on?

Tim Ulbrich 01:29

Super excited to have you on. It’s been a while since we’ve done a debt free story and celebration. So I’m certainly looking forward to that. And you and I connected back in 2023 although, as we discussed before the interview, we had some connections before that we weren’t necessarily aware of. And at the time, I saw a post that you shared on LinkedIn of a pharmacy personal finance talk that you were giving to Iowa pharmacy students. So let’s start there. Where does your passion for personal finance come from?

Brandon Gerleman 01:59

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Definitely comes from being aware, and that, you know, just being aware of your situation, and it kind of spurs from my parents really having that instilled, instilled that at a young age, and just being aware, you know, living within your means, having the ability to kind of see everything that that has come in and coming out, and yet again, just just that awareness issue and a little bit of that pharmacist, hey, I need to control a little bit of something here.

Tim Ulbrich 02:31

I love that. And you shared with me, you know, 2017, year you graduated, you were on APPE rotations, and you ran across the YFP podcast, which helped, in part, light a spark that you certainly took and ran with, and you’ve done the hard work, but I love that you’re now giving that back as well as you’re sharing with other students, and as you and I both know this is such a topic of interest and need among pharmacists at large, but certainly students and new practitioners. So thank you for your commitment to this topic, and as you continue to share the good news with students and others as well. Before we get into the weeds on your student loans and your Debt Free Journey, how you paid them off, why you paid them off, tell us about your career path, what led you into the profession, and what’s the work that you’ve been doing since graduating 2017.

Brandon Gerleman 03:18

Yeah, for sure. For sure. Graduated in 2017. Prior to even getting into pharmacy school. I live here in a small town of 5,000 folks here in South Central Iowa, and really that independent community pharmacist and seeing the impact on what they did to the community. That sounds super cliche. You probably hear that a lot. I’m sure pharmacists talk about that a bunch. But the pharmacist at the independent community pharmacy uptown, like they were the, know it all for anything. It was, you know, drug related, it was, you know, any ailment related. It was, when’s the next bus come in? I mean, it was any question, you know, community events like they were just that go to resource. And I just, I just admired that and thought, gosh, I just, I like talking to people, love science. I think this could be a really good fit. Started working there as a pharmacist, you know, technician, tech and training prior when I was an undergrad and just ran, ran from there and never looked back. So graduated from the University of Iowa College of Pharmacy in 2017 and immediately ran back home, right. Came back to my hometown and was overseeing a lot of the clinical operations within the small pharmacy chain that we had here. And that was a really nice, fulfilling, you know, giving back to the community. Being involved in the community; was there for about two and a half years, and really had the mindset of wanting to impact more than just 5,000 in my community. So made the transition over to Outcomes MTM, where I could really help impact millions upon millions of patients. Patients, and help them with outcomes for about five years now, so been there ever since, worn a number of different hats within outcomes, been on the clinical team, been on the payer product team, and most recently, I’m on the pharmacy product team. So I’ve got a little bit of a non traditional pathway, A, B, current position, so I’m a senior product manager, and I oversee all the clinical pharmacy products for Outcomes, and so that that that involves or brings in anything from looking at our collaborative practice agreements and being on the clinical lens to review those, to writing pharmacy sponsored opportunities on the outcomes platform, to also writing clinical workflows that enable the pharmacist to, you know, to practice at the top of their license and submit as a medical bill. So really, anything clinical in the pharmacy, in pharmacy land from outcomes I oversee, and I absolutely love it. I sit with software engineers every single day, and they’re a tremendous group of folks and provide that clinical lens on a lot of what we’re doing. And it’s a very fulfilling position, a need position, and the ability to not only impact patients, but to increase efficiencies and provide more tools for pharmacists to impact even more patients and truly get that fulfilling, that point of patient care, that great, we’re in a state we can do test and treat. But what does that mean? Where do I start? What do I do? You know, how can I decrease my my risk of, you know, DIR fees, you know, how can I practice, you know, practice at the top of my license. So it’s a fun, fun position that I’m at. And been there, been been there, five years, five years now.

Tim Ulbrich 06:48

Outcomes holds a special place for me, and I didn’t share this with you in advance, and I’m dating myself a little bit. And our listeners may not know this about my career path, but I graduated back in 2008 and I spent a year residency in community practice, and then my first job out of community practice was a shared academic role with the university up in Northeast Ohio. And then I was practice component was with a local community regional chain. Giant Eagle is the name of the chain, and we were implementing medication management services across the region. That was my job to go to various stores and help them think about the clinical workflows and how to embed this into patient care models. And it was a really exciting time, right? This wasn’t too long after the passage of the Medicare Modernization Act, and this was for us in Ohio, there was a huge Medicaid contract that landed, and through outcomes was really the ability that we had to do many of these services at the time, so just really fun memories and and really being able to help expand practice at the time. So feels like it’s coming full circle as you’re talking here and sharing your career journey as well.

Brandon Gerleman 07:55

Yeah, definitely it’s that next, that next chapter, right? And now we’re just, we’re beyond just traditional MTM, and now we’re trying to help pharmacists just do more on that same platform.

Tim Ulbrich 08:05

So let’s get into the student loans. Give us the juicy details. How much debt did you have when you graduated in 2017 and what was the average interest rate on your debt at the time?

Brandon Gerleman 08:17

Yeah, did some math here, and kind of added things up. And I still have, when I first graduated, just kind of memory of seeing the number in my head there. But just shy $161,000 in student loan debt from both undergrad and grad and pharmacy school. So I’ve got twoundergrad degrees. I went the four and four route, and they averaged across all of them about 6.75% so remember, just graduated and be like, Oh, that’s a kind of a tough pill to swallow.

Tim Ulbrich 08:51

Yeah. And as you and I were talking about before we hit record, you know, the the interest rate matters a lot, and we’ll talk about how that played into your repayment journey. Unfortunately, we’re seeing those rates – I graduated again, 2008 6.8% a lot of my loans were fixed. You mentioned in the six, sevens. We’re actually seeing now rates on those unsubsidized graduate loans, you know, north of 8% so those are tough interest rates. We talk a lot about the number right, 161, 170, 180, 190. And actually the the average debt load is, we just got the latest data from the class of 2024, hovering around that hovering around that $170k mark still. So it has flattened off over the last several years. But we don’t give enough attention to the interest rate, and I think that’s going to come to life as we talk about your repayment strategy, because for you, as I understand it, it was refinancing your loans, not once, not twice, but five times, ultimately, getting your rate down to 2.24% now, before our listeners, you know, are just like, what in the world, those interest rates don’t exist today, right? So talk us through that decision to refinance. What was it primarily or only based? Based on that 2.24% because there are some considerations, right? When people take their loans from the federal system to a private lender, which is what you’re doing through a process of refinance, there are some things that you might be giving up. Oh, and by the way, when something like a global pandemic happens and there’s a freeze on interest and no payments are required, right, that was something we never could have seen coming as a potential negative impact and consequence of refinancing. So tell us about that decision to refinance and how you ultimately got to the point that that was the best plan for you.

Brandon Gerleman 10:33

Yeah, yeah. Definitely didn’t have global pandemic and halt on student loan payments in my in my Uno cards there. But yeah, for me, it was the aspect of I knew I was never going to, I shouldn’t say never, never say that you never know where the career is going to take you. But highly unlikely for me to go to a another career that kept me in that student loan forgiveness within the federal sector there. So knowing that it just came down to math, and at the end of the day, it wasn’t a jump from 6.75% directly to 2.24% it was refinancing. And I would just always got in the habit of, every three months checking, and I actually always go on on Your Financial Pharmacist and go over to see what deals were going on, right? You know what was the bonus for refinancing? What were the rates at playing around? And never, you know, never hurt your credit score by checking. And you don’t know what you don’t know. And so I would just continue to chip chip, chip away, and eventually got that down to that 2.24% with that auto pay, you know, the rate reduction there by a quarter percent. But it just came down to math. And at the end of the day, what we’re doing is, is math here. And I hate to pay in interest, oh my gosh, just to think that I’m like, giving, like, somebody giving money, and I’m paying them back, and the interest payments are, you know, what’s killing you. I just wanted to that was just a fire in the belly. Wanted to reduce that as much as possible.

Tim Ulbrich 12:05

Yeah, you know, I gave a presentation just a couple weeks ago to a group of student pharmacists, and I walked them through how interest accumulates, right? Because when we’re talking about unsubsidized loans, which you know for most pharmacy students, that’s going to be all of your federal student loans. When it comes to your pharmacy education, there’s the principal, which is the original amount that you’re borrowing, and then there’s the interest which accrues while you’re in school. I often say, Well, when I’m presenting, hey, not to scare you, but while we’re sitting here, the interest is accruing, right? That’s just a matter of fact. And then when you get an active repayment, that separate pot of interest gets added to your principal, and that grows interest. What I say is baby interest, which is referred to as capitalization. So the result of that, why that matters, is that most borrowers, myself, included my own journeys, you vastly underestimate how much you’re actually going to pay off when it’s all said and done, because you’re looking at as a pharmacy student saying, okay, you know, I’m borrowing 15, $20,000 a semester. I’ve got so many semesters, that’s the number, right? And what we’re leaving out there is the interest that accumulates in school, and then the interest that accumulates all the while in the repayment period as well. So such an important lesson, whether we’re talking about student loans, credit card debt, mortgage, car loans, anytime you’re borrowing, right? Interest is the cost of borrowing anytime a bank is lending someone money that that’s a risk they’re taking, and obviously you’re going to pay for that in the form of interest. We have to understand how that interest accumulates and how we feel as well, which is an important one that you mentioned in terms of your hate of that interest. I also want to highlight Brandon, you said something important, which I don’t want to overlook for our listeners that are thinking about their own situation. You said, Hey, I first determined that something like Public Service Loan Forgiveness wasn’t going to be my pathway. Once I made that decision, it really came down to a math, the math. And I want to highlight that, because that’s how I think about it, in terms of a decision tree, right? If there is a pathway to be considered, and it makes sense. And there’s some pros, cons, things that we gotta factor in before you ultimately make that decision. Let’s have that discussion first, if that is not a possibility, then we’re looking at, how do we maximize our repayment options and strategies? And for some people, that might be a refinance. Now, Brandon, I know our listeners are listening to say, is anybody refinancing anymore, right? Given where interest rates are at, and the answer is, actually there are, it’s certainly not anywhere to the point of what you did when you got this all the way down to the low twos. We saw that right before the pandemic. A lot of people, flurry of activity into refinancing below threes. You know, that has largely gone away for the most part, but there are many people out there who have existing private loans that may be at eight, 9, 10, 11, 12, plus percent, which is crazy to say out loud, that certainly should be considering whether or not they can move that private loan and get a better deal on that. So I just want to kind of pause for a moment and make sure we address that. So when you look at the math, clearly, you know, 6.7% down 2.24%. That looks good. What did that actually mean in terms of how much time that took off the repayment period?

Brandon Gerleman 15:11

Oh, I should have written this down! Every single time I would use the some of the calculators that that are on the Your Financial Pharmacist website and and every time I would, you know, crunch it. If I’m here, here’s where I’m at, bringing it down, here’s where I’m at. I have to dig in there. But I know it was of the 10s of 1000s of dollars, and then as far as a time, I think that’s where, that’s where I compounded and snowballed things. So like my wife and I were incredibly comfortable paying when I first graduated this, you know, unsightly amount that was more than our house payment and and thinking, Okay, well, if we’re comfortable paying that, we’re going to refinance from, you know, from A to B, and that reduced my interest rate. Well, I’m going to continue to pay that because out of sight, out of mind, but I’m going to add that extra because my payment went down. My monthly payment went down. I’m going to add that extra as principal only. And so by the time you did that five times you’re you’re knocking it down. It is dollars that you’re not even used to seeing because you haven’t seen it yet that are just snowballing toward that principle. And then every time I would refinance, I’d play around with the calculators as well. Can I, you know, decrease the duration, you know, of my student loan as well? And the last one that we did in 2021 that got me to that 2.24 I also cut it from at that point would have been seven years down to five years. And so that also helped me, you know, really snowball. And then I’ll say that anytime we had a, you know, a tax return, or any, you know, any type of dollars that we felt, hey, let’s, let’s start throwing, throwing additional dollars that way. We throw it as a lump sum, and we’d, we chase it, you know, chase a traditional payment with a principal only. Payments would only go toward that principal, and that was, you know, the combination of refinancing, reducing that, the length of that loan, continuing to pay what we were used to paying, and have it go to our principal, and then the lump sums, kind of, you know, along the way doesn’t have to be much. Can be 500 bucks. This one month can be, you know, $1,000 you know, this other month can just be adding on. Hey, let’s, you know, just add on a little bit. Add 20 bucks a month toward principal. Those small things added up where all of a sudden you became much more manageable. And every time I was very aware, I’ve said that a couple times, I’m very aware, I would always be checking, you know, you know, what’s the balance? Now, you wouldn’t check every single day. That would just drive about, you know, a person crazy. But you know, as you’re checking, then you’re noticing that your payments going more towards principal and less toward interest and and then you can start breathing a little bit, right? And then there, you know, there’s that light at the end of the tunnel and that snowball. And just continue to snowball and snowball and snowball.

Tim Ulbrich 17:58

Yeah, what I hear there is momentum and energy that is coming, which, which is really defined by that snowball approach. And we’ll talk a little bit more about that. But you know, often people will refinance to potentially save on a monthly payment, and then that frees up cash flow to do other things, no right or wrong there. That’s just an option that people choose. Others kind of take the approach you did, which is, hey, we’re going to refinance, get a lower rate, but since we’re used to this monthly payment, even though we only have to now pay 1100 bucks a month, but we’re used to paying 1500 or whatever the number is, let’s keep paying 1500 we’re going to make these principal only payments, and by doing that, we’re going to jump down the amortization table, right? And for those of you that haven’t geeked out on an amortization table, it’s important to understand these things. Again, it’s not just student loans, it’s house payments, car payments, any other type of debt. To really understand what percentage of your payment is going toward principal, what percentage of your payment is going towards interest, and after you make that payment, what’s the balance due? Oh, and by the way, if we make an extra payment, what does that mean, right, in terms of where we’re at, and so depending on your goals, what you’re trying to achieve, interest rates, all these factors are going to determine how aggressive you may or may not be in that debt repayment to that point. And you mentioned Brandon that you know, when you first started, you were paying this unsightly amount. I remember that feeling very well, and that for you, it’s Hey, I hate interest these need to be gone as quick as possible, as what I’m gathering from you, and that’s a decision point that people have to decide, right? We talked about the first branch of the decision tree, which was, Hey, are you going to pursue loan forgiveness or not? If not, then it’s a mathematical decision. Now, once you go to the next decision point, it is, how quickly do I want these gone? And what does that mean for our monthly cash flow and potentially being able to do X, Y or Z. That could be a myriad of things, right? It could be that, hey, we’re looking to save up for a home. We’re looking to buy a second investment property. We want to invest in more in our retirement. We want to have experiences. We got kids on the way. There’s a million other goals that could be coming. But ultimately, you decided that, sure. Or more cash flow would be nice, but we want these gone, you know, tomorrow. And so how did you and your wife get to that decision, that despite the rate arguably being pretty darn low when you get to that point, 2.24 and even before that pretty low, that even though those rates were coming down, you really wanted to go that aggressive repayment. What was the philosophy behind that for you guys?

Brandon Gerleman 20:20

Yeah, yeah. Great, great question. I would say it wasn’t hard to not even going to use the word convince. My wife is already on the same page. So just more of demonstrating, showing the math, and saying, you know, by doing this, you know, semi aggressive plan, instead of being done in 2027 we can be done in 2024 so that freed up, you know, three years of more than our house payment worth of student loans that then will allow us to do more things. And so I’ve got two young kids under the age of four. And, you know, now all of sudden we can, we can go out and we can maybe do something. And, you know, go on a vacation here, and within that entire last seven years, though, I’ll say that we lived within our means, but we weren’t crunching pennies. We’re not in some fancy, fancy house. We’re within our means here. We still go on vacations with the kids. We still do fun things with the kids. Went and saw Caitlin Clark play in Minnesota last week, right? So, yeah, you know, so we’re, it’s from, for me and my wife, it was just like, how can we tackle the student debt and take that and just, you know, a big relief off our shoulders to then enable us to do more things? And it’s all about the family, and it was like trying to prep for the for the future that way. Also say that the snowball doesn’t doesn’t just stop with with my student loans. We We’ve now taken what we’re used to paying for my student loans, and we’re snowballing into other things, a truck payment. My wife student loans are almost done, you know, yeah, so, like, by the end of 2024 you know, really being able to breathe. And then you know that that allows you, and I’m sure I’m leading on to the next question. You know that that allows a person to do a little bit more. And now I can start putting dollars for a 529, plan for, you know, for the kids. And I can start, you know, and add a little bit more in the 401K, which can then reduce my, you know, my taxable income. So there’s other things that that that we can consider while, you know, we have a, you know, freed up a little bit of monthly cash, you know, when it comes to looking at the cash in and out, but it’s really having that supportive spouse who, at the end of the day, the math is the math, and we weren’t so aggressive, where we couldn’t do things, we weren’t. So, you know, passive, where the, you know, the dollars kept, kept loading on. So I think it was finding that that right balance,

Tim Ulbrich 22:49

I suspect that balance was really important for the two of you to get on the same page. And it’s something I see often. It was true in our own journey as well, that, I think, where people run into some issues, especially if you have two different money belief systems. And I’m not suggesting that was the case here, but when that is the case, you know, when one person’s like, hey, we want to go all in and I want these gone tomorrow, and we’re not going to do anything. Like, obviously, there’s going to be friction there, right? And I think we often have this perception of, hey, I would love to be debt free, like Brandon’s debt free, but I’m not willing to sacrifice everything. And what I hear you saying is like, Hey, we’ve lived within our means. We’ve done hard work. I’m not going to minimize that. We’ve been intentional, but we haven’t been, you know, to the point where we’re not also enjoying things and living this rich life that we so often talk about on the show. And what I often see, and I’m confident I will see here as well, is that when someone is as intentional as you have been, and you and your wife have been for for as long as you’ve been, then when you go to the next decision point, when your wife’s loans are done, and you’re like, hey, we were putting x per month between our loans. Now what? That’s the question. Now, what? Right this money isn’t going to go off into the ether and you’re going to be like, what happened? We used to pay loans, and now we don’t know where that money went. Like, you’re going to be intentional about, hey, it’s the 529 account. Maybe it’s putting a little bit more towards investing for retirement. Maybe it’s being intentional if we’re going to take another vacation a year or, you know, do whatever it means for you guys to be living the rich life. So I love that, and I think we don’t talk often enough about that that there are benefits that come long term from how we approach our decision making and how we live today, that even when the debt’s gone, you’re gonna see the fruit of that well beyond that.

Brandon Gerleman 24:35

Definitely. And you know, I’ve seen other folks that have been on your podcast that have paid off way more in a shorter amount of time. And I think that is phenomenal. It’s kind of driving your own, you know, your own why? And for me, it was in my wife. It was like we want to be able to live in the moment and celebrate and do things with our kids. And as you know, before we had kids as a couple, but also be and I love the word intentional. Be very intentional about what we’re doing. You know, we can still splurge on a Starbucks every now and then, right? You know, you can still do things while living within your means and being intentional about how we’re how we’re approaching our student loan debt payoff.

Tim Ulbrich 25:15

As you and your wife look towards that finish line of her loans coming in the not so distant future, and obviously, as aggressive as you’ve been there, there’s going to be some cash flow available, which is exciting. And you’ve, in part, answered this. You mentioned the kids college savings of 529, accounts. I’ve heard kind of the family experience aspect of it as well. What else? What else is? Is a priority for you guys as you look towards, say, the next decade or so?

Brandon Gerleman 25:42

Man, hard to look past the next decade. When you’ve got two kids running around, doing everything every single week, there’s something new! I would say, you know, free enough to be able to start investing more, right? So because, I’m because we were so intentional about paying down debt, we weren’t as heavy on on investing. And so I would say, you know, investing personally, as well as investing in my children’s future with, you know, 529 plans. I’m that’s probably my biggest thing is, like paying it forward. I will say, here’s the nice little asterisk that I’ll throw with my 161,000 in student loan debt, my folks took care of my undergrad. So that includes, you know, around just shy or about $35,000 out of that $160k my mom and dad were very intentional to pay off for my twin sister and I, to allow us to then kind of pay it forward. So I’m really looking forward to being able to pay it, forward to my to my children. So I’d say, you know, between 529 some investing, some decreasing my taxable income, as well as saving for retirement. And then I, I think the biggest thing is, like taking a breath and just saying, Hey, we did it. Let’s just kind of, you know, relax, enjoy it for a little bit and and really enjoy the family and start doing more things and really getting those, those family experiences involved. We’re not anytime we’re doing presents for kids or anything we’re not big on, like a product or an item, like, for all those that are parents out there, Tim, yourself, included, like, man, like you, for you, the kid forgets about it maybe in two weeks, or plays with the box instead, right? Or and so those are replaceable, the the memories and the experiences are what we’re really trying to pass on, I think that’ll allow us to do a little bit more, you know, travel, and just be even more involved with our kids.

Tim Ulbrich 27:38

I love to hear that Brandon, and I’m intentionally asking the question, you know, to encourage our listeners to be thinking about this as well, and to encourage you and your wife to continue these conversations as well, because they’re so important, right? You’ve done incredible hard work with the student loan debt. You’re going to do great work with saving but, but there’s a bigger story here, right? And that’s what I’m asking about, because there will be a day. I call it the rocking chair exercise. There will be a day when I look back, when you look back and, you know, yeah, oh yeah. Remember, we paid off all that debt, yeah, we did that. You know, remember when we got to the point of financial independence because we saved for the future, and we don’t have our mortgage anymore, and our kids are taking care of, yeah, yeah, we did that. What do we remember, right? What’s the So, what? What’s the vision? What’s the engine behind all of this? And at the end of the day, money is a tool. Money has value because we all agree it has value, and as long as that’s true, it will have value, but it’s what we’re able to do with that money. And getting clear with that no right or wrong answer is really what this whole financial plan is about. So I hear a strong why of family experiences. You know, that’s something I often hear when I ask this question. You know, for other people, it might be a dream they have of starting a business, or it might be, you know, some type of giving aspect of time, reminding you’re having an option to work part time. Or it could be a myriad of things, and really getting clear on that, I think, for those that are listening, that are in the middle of the weeds of going through a journey like this. You know, it’s not a hey, I’ll think about that tomorrow. It’s, let’s think about this now, because that’s going to propel and give us some motivation while we’re in the midst of this journey. And we don’t want to wait till we get to the finish line, because this is something we constantly want to ignite the fire in the flame with. And for those that are doing this with a significant other, partner, spouse, so important, so important. We’re having these conversations because all the strategy is somewhat noise. If we aren’t clear on where are we going or why are we going there? And that really, I think, is where we see so much of the joy come and the opportunity. So I love what you shared there, Brandon, I’m so excited to see where you and your wife go into the future, and congratulations on the success that you’ve had so far.

Brandon Gerleman 29:43

Very much appreciate that. And I will say one more thing, and that is, you know, nobody pretends to be an expert in this area, right? We’re always learning. And so even myself, as I’m going through this last year, learned about, you know, a. 529 you know, Secure Act. And then I was able to, you know, throw some dollars toward that, a 529 plan over last year and this year, that even helped me from a tax benefit that I knew I was going to pay them off this year. So I might as well throw it in an account that I can kind of shelter a little bit through taxes. Had no clue about that. I was just kind of over a beer, discussing with with another colleague, and it’s like, Wait a minute. So I just just want to throw that out there that, you know, we’re always learning, I feel like the more aware we are around what’s happening. You know, that’s why I was listening to all these Your Financial Pharmacist Podcasts back in in pharmacy school, on fourth year rotations, and ever since, it’s, it’s just, it’s being aware. It’s always learning. It’s asking questions and just, you know, trying to, trying to put ourselves in the best position for success, for whatever that why is

Tim Ulbrich 30:50

What I hear there is a curiosity, a desire to learn and grow. I love that example, right? Because there’s a state tax deduction that you’re talking about from a 529 to be able to pay off your loans, and that was opened up, you know, others might be using it to pay for kids private education, you know, K through 12. That’s a relatively new thing as well. And some people might hear that and be like, Well, what actually is the dollar savings, right? And sure, you know, we could look at that and say, you know, are we talking 1000s and 1000s of dollars? No we’re not, but it’s, it’s an important example, because it’s an indication of the curiosity you have, the desire to learn, to grow. And as I often say, there is no arrive at the financial plan, as long as we are hungry to learn and grow and be open to different ideas and strategies and figure out what’s best for our plan, right? There is an infinite number of possibilities for where we could go. So that is such a cool example of what comes from from compounded learning over time. So Brandon, thanks so much for taking time, time to come on the show again. Congratulations to you and your wife. Look forward to following your journey as well into the future.

Brandon Gerleman 31:49

I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.

Tim Ulbrich 31:51

Before we wrap up today’s episode of The Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. I want to again thank our sponsor, the American Pharmacist Association. APHA, is every pharmacist ally advocating on your behalf for better working conditions, fair PBM practices and more opportunities for pharmacists to provide care. Make sure to join a bolder APHA to gain premier access to financial educational resources and to receive discounts on YFP products and services. You can join APHA at a 25% discount by visiting pharmacist.com/join and using the coupon code YFP. Again, that’s pharmacist.com/join using the coupon code YFP.

Tim Ulbrich 32:33

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyzes expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 354: From PharmD to Debt Free to FIRE with Derek Schwartz, PharmD

Posted on April 11, 2024April 11, 2024 by YFP Media

Derek Schwartz, PharmD, returns to talk about his debt free journey and his path toward FIRE: Financial Independence, Retire Early.

Episode Summary

On this episode, we check back in with Derek Schwartz, PharmD, on his debt free to FIRE journey. Derek was an early guest on the podcast back in 2017 when he was working toward becoming debt free by ambitiously paying off $180,000 in student loan debt.

Today, Derek returns to share a life update after successfully eliminating his student loan debt – from getting married to owning a home to becoming a father of two – Derek explains how he continues to save and view spending and how his journey toward an early retirement evolves as he pursues FIRE. Derek shares encouraging advice for new grads and anyone looking to pay down debt and what it can mean when you are truly financially free.

About Today’s Guest

Derek Schwartz, PharmD, RPh is a 2014 graduate of Ohio Northern University Raabe College of Pharmacy who currently works with the Kroger Company in the Cincinnati, OH area. After graduating in 2014 with over $180,000 in debt, he paid it off in March 2018. Derek and his wife, Jessica, married in October 2020, and have two children: Julia, age 2, and Calvin, 8 months old. The family of four have a happy and busy life in Cincinnati, Ohio.

Key Points from the Episode

Financial independence and retiring early with a guest from 2017. [0:00]
Debt repayment and financial independence with a young family. [2:04]
Budgeting and financial goals with a focus on breathing room and flexibility. [8:46]
Financial Independence and Retire Early (FIRE) journey with Derek Schwartz. [13:13]
Financial independence, debt management, and retirement planning. [17:20]
Retirement planning and debt management. [20:49]
FIRE (Financial Independence Retire Early) journey and determining the FI number. [27:44]
Paying off student loans and saving for the future. [31:49]
Investment advice and updates from a guest. [37:49]

Episode Highlights

“So my debt repayment that it finished was March 30 of 2018. So just in a couple of days, it’s been six years, which is just crazy. Because it’s been so long, it was such a big part of my life. And it’s so far in the distant past, I hardly think about it anymore. And that was always the goal for paying off that debt because it sets up everything else so nicely.” -Derek Schwartz [3:07]

“When you have that much debt, it stops you from saving, it stops you from investing, it stops you from using your income to benefit future savings, having fun, just doing anything.” -Derek Schwartz [5:40]

“Having that much debt and trying to do other things, is like trying to run a marathon without stretching. You’re not gonna get far, you’re not going, you’re gonna get hurt, you’re gonna have to restart, and then you get to go back to square one.” – Derek Schwartz [5:58]

“And once you are completely out of debt, it’s like shutting a book and just tossing out the window. It’s done. You don’t have to go back.” -Derek Schwartz [6:20]

“And that was the motivation for such a rigid budget is I knew exactly when those loans would be paid off. And now it’s completely changed. Because when you’re talking about no debt, what are you saving for? What’s your goal? You can be so much more flexible, when there’s not some restraint of I’m budgeting to get over this, instead of I’m budgeting to get to this.” Derek Schwartz [11:06]

“But it’s just always been a passion for both of us because we have so many more interests that aren’t tied to our jobs. We both love our jobs, we love our work. But, we love other things, too.” -Derek Schwartz [18:28]

“So we’re planning for those to just not be there. And so that’s kind of a, a different way to look at it. Because most people will assume that Social Security will be there, they’ll have some some kind of health insurance. We’re looking at it as, hey, if we retire at 50, on our own, can we do it?” -Derek Schwartz [22:50]

“And that’s, that’s such the nice thing about being in the FIRE mindset of, first of all, being in the FIRE mindset, you’re out of debt. And then secondly, how can we use factors around us to benefit us. And that’s something you can’t do when you have when you have a lot of debt, and you don’t have the the FIRE mindset if you’ve already been saving.” -Derek Schwartz [26:45]

“So, and we couldn’t do that without being out of debt. I keep going back to getting out of debt. But that’s just so important because it just allows you to be on that platform to just do so many different things with what you want to do with your money.” – Derek Schwartz [34:22]

“Paying off debt is not fun. It is not glamorous, it is not full of constant rewards. You’re not doing a lot of things; you’re just watching a number go down. And that’s all it’s doing. But once you get out and pass through that, your options just expand so much.” – Derek Schwartz [36:18]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I welcome back Derek Schwartz, a guest from episode 14 way back in 2017 to share his journey from PharmD to debt free to pursuing financial independence/retire early. We discuss why he and his family are on the fire path, how his financial decisions, post-graduation helped put them on a path towards building wealth, the biggest challenges that they’re facing in pursuit of fire, and how he striking the balance between living a rich life today and saving for the future.

Now, before we jump into the show, I have a question for you. Have you ever wondered how to evaluate the benefits package and offer you receive once you’ve landed the job? If so, our upcoming webinar supported by APHA is for you. On Wednesday, April 17, at 8:30pm. Eastern my partner in crime YFP, Co-Founder and Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker is hosting a free webinar titled: Money Moves: How to Evaluate Benefits Packages and Job Offers. During this webinar, Tim will dig into the valuable connection between career and finance and the ins and outs of benefit packages and offers. He’ll teach you how to navigate components of employer benefits, including insurance, FSA, HSAs, employer sponsored retirement accounts, as well as help you understand components of a job offer and how to evaluate one. Plus, Tim is going to do a live walkthrough and evaluation of real pharmacist job offers from you, the YFP community. So send us your pharmacist job offer current or past to [email protected] with the subject line: job offer. Don’t worry, we’ll keep these anonymous. And if you attend live, you’ll have the chance to win a $50 Amazon gift card or YFP bundle which includes a YFP t-shirt and our four books published at YFP. To save your seat and to register visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/offer. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/offer.

Alright, let’s jump in my interview with Derek Schwartz.

Tim Ulbrich 02:02

Derek, welcome back to the show.

Derek Schwartz 02:04

Great to see you again.

Tim Ulbrich 02:06

So excited to have you back. This has been a while in the making. For our community to know we had Derek on way back when, nearly seven years ago at this point, Episode 14, September 2017. We talked about your journey – graduated from Ohio Northern University in 2014. Go Polar Bears!

Tim Ulbrich 02:23

You were paying off $180,000 of debt in just about four years. That was 2018 when you guys finished that debt repayment journey. We’ll link to that episode in the show notes so folks can go back. And we’re going to talk a little bit more about that. But really focus on your journey now and where you’re at present day and how you and your family are on this path towards financial independence. So Derek, since it’s been such a while, 2017 what what’s changed since since we last spoke?

Derek Schwartz 02:23

Go Polar Bears!

Derek Schwartz 02:51

Man, what hasn’t changed? So when we recorded the podcast, and I begrudgingly listened to it. So I think I join everyone that they don’t like to hear themselves talk. So I, I struggled through that I had not paid off my debt when I recorded that. So my debt repayment that it finished was March 30 of 2018. So just in a couple of days, it’s been six years, which is just crazy. Because it’s it’s been so long, it was such a big part of my life. And it’s so far in the distant past, I hardly think about it anymore. And that was always the goal for paying off that debt because it sets up everything else so nicely. So you know, it’s a typical story, you know, you, you meet someone, you get engaged, and my wife and I got engaged in January of 2020. And I was like, you know, this is gonna be a great year. Nothing bad’s gonna happen in 2020. It’s gonna be smooth sailing from here, as everyone knows, wasn’t the case. But it was an opportunity for us to buy our future home, we moved into a good part of town where we wanted to raise kids, and then we started the family. So we have two kids. I have a two year old daughter and an almost an eight month old son. So things have been great so far.

Tim Ulbrich 04:13

That’s a lot in a short period of time, as we often see, with new practitioners coming out, you know, you’ve been out now a decade coming up here, right this spring, but you know, you graduate, start your first job, get married, you’ve got a couple of kids, pay off your loans. I mean, just a lot that happens and one of the things I was sharing with you before we hit record, which I think is a great example here, Derek and the work that you and your family have done is you know the decisions we make in that first five to seven years is the window I often talk about this transition right from student to new practitioner, really is so critical to setting the foundation upon which we can build and we’re going to talk about how now you guys are on this path towards financial independence, which I presume is probably not possible or possible to the degree that it is. If you didn’t work hard to put some of those rocks in place some of the foundational pieces in place early on in your journey. And so, you know, again, we’ll link back to that episode so people can hear the details of that debt free journey, but just remind us of the motivation, the why behind a pretty aggressive debt repayment $180,000, about four years. Everyone’s on their own journey, everyone feels different about their debt. But for you guys, obviously, it was in a decision to be intentional about paying it off in a short period of time, which again, has led to the place that you’re in today, why why was that such an important piece of the plan for you guys to get out of that debt as quickly as possible?

Derek Schwartz 05:40

I think it was, because there was no other option. When you have that much debt, it stops you from saving, it stops you from investing, it stops you from using your income to benefit future savings, having fun, just doing anything. Having that much debt and trying to do other things, is like trying to run a marathon without stretching. You’re not gonna get far, you’re not going, you’re gonna get hurt, you’re gonna have to restart, and then you get to go back to square one. So the goal of getting out of debt was just to get past that. So that options, were actually on the table that were available. And once you are completely out of debt, it’s like shutting a book and just tossing out the window. It’s done. You don’t have to go back.

Tim Ulbrich 06:27

Yeah, and I think, you know, I often shared Derek that when I think back to my journey, Jess, and I have paid off a couple $100,000 of debt and making every mistake you can make along the way. You know, it was really when our kid most of that journey was before we had kids and the end of that journey. Our kids were very young. But I now think about that monthly payment, right that we were making, which was pretty aggressive at the time. And basically, as I now see the expenses with kids rising, right, which is natural, you know, I’ve got some older, older boys that are starting to eat us out of the house. But you know, for other people, it’s daycare, right? It’s other costs, it’s saving for kids college. But the point being that, you know, that payment that I think of that we’re making towards their student loans, you can pretty much just put that money over to expenses, right, that are associated now with having young children that weren’t there before. And for us, I know, personally, it would be a burden currently if we were still trying to work through those payments, while other expenses were rising. Does that resonate as you guys are, you know, obviously, growing a young family, you know, having that margin through having that debt paid off has allowed you to really have have some more flexibility as naturally expenses will rise as you have young children.

Derek Schwartz 07:37

Yeah, for sure. And we we started with our daughter in daycare. And we quickly learned that wasn’t for us. We were getting a lot of sick calls, we had to go in, bring her home, my wife and I both worked full time. And we were seemed to be a some of us, one of us is going to have to work part time to have to get around daycare. So we’ve hired a nanny, which was the best decision that we made. And, you know, we couldn’t afford that with student loan payments, we couldn’t afford that with a credit card payment or a car loan, or anything that, you know, requires a monthly payment like that. So it’s the setup to getting flexible with the budget has to start with being in a position where you can be flexible. And without any, like debt that’s just holding you down. That flexibility is just gone. So it limits your options. And we don’t want to have to, you know, talk about every single transaction that we do, where we buy something. Like hey, can we afford to have a date night? We don’t have to have that discussion because we don’t have, you know, all these loans and like this massive budget that we have to worry about. We still budget, but that’s in the budget, so you don’t have to think about it.

Tim Ulbrich 08:52

Yeah, yeah, what I hear there, Derek, is breathing room, right? You’ve used the word options, flexibility a couple of times already. But when you have breathing room, we underestimate the mental space and clarity that can come from that. And, you know, I think you can probably appreciate this working on this topic together with your spouse, like a lack of breathing room, a lack of margin is a recipe for stress and arguments. And you know, not not being on the same page financially. Right. So creating that breathing room, which we know is easier said than done. We look at today’s graduates are coming out with $150- $200,000 of debt. You know, you and I were fortunate to not necessarily be buying a home where home prices are in 2024 and interest rates. There are headwinds, right that today’s graduates are facing that are real. And unfortunately, those eat into that breathing room, they eat into that margin, but we know when we can create that breathing room and space. We have options. We have flexibility, you know, we’re able to really progress and move forward with the financial plan and play offense instead of constantly being on our heels playing defense. I do want to poke for a moment on the budget because I think that’s something that, you know, when I talk about budgeting, you know, to a group of pharmacists, you know everyone again is on their own journey, but I often see the look of like, like, do I have to right? Do I have to track? Do I have to do these things? And I tried to reframe the budget as being the really the mechanism by which we’re achieving our financial goals. Now, how detailed do you want to get is up to you. Whatever works for you, and everyone, again, is going to be different. But if we reframe it, that the budget, the spending plan, the system, whatever you want to call it, is simply the execution plan for achieving our goals, I think we can get behind that a little bit more. And you made a comment that, hey, we’re, we’re budgeting, but we’re maybe not tracking things at the granular level of hey, can we go on a date night tonight or not? And is the budget $20 or $30, or whatever that number is. So tell us about what your budgeting system looks like right now. And maybe how that’s evolved over time.

Derek Schwartz 10:46

Yeah, the budget before when I had debt was so rigid, because I knew exactly how much I was making. I knew exactly how much was going to, at the time was living in an apartment. So rent utilities. And it was a very locked in number. And that’s what it was going to be every month. And that was the number that would, that would knock down that debt. And that was the motivation for such a rigid budget is I knew exactly when those loans would be paid off. And now it’s completely changed. Because when you’re talking about no debt, what are you saving for? What’s your goal? You can be so much more flexible, when there’s not some restraint of I’m budgeting to get over this, instead of I’m budgeting to get to this. And when you’re budgeting to just have that independence that you want in your life financially, you can be so flexible with it. And my wife and I, before we had kids, we were saving a ton of money, I want to say at least 40 to 50% of our income, we were saving that. Because we were in a position where we’re like, hey, we want to have kids. So we know the timeline that we want to be on, we wanted to have a couple of kids we wanted to family, we knew it was going to be in a couple years. So we’re like, you know what, let’s just save for the next couple years, and then put ourselves in a position. So we just saved super aggressively. And then when the kids came and expenses come up, and you you dial that budget back, it doesn’t hurt as much because you’re still saving. And when you’re so aggressive to start, it’s so much easier to for it to be malleable, just mold it what you needed to be. And then we then look forward to having goals of hey, we can we can get that back to where we want it once kids are in school. And once you have less expenses, because they’re both we had two under two for quite a long time and not only was financially stressful, just in general stressful. And it we we see where it can get back to and that’s the motivation now.

Tim Ulbrich 12:46

Yeah, and I think Derek, one things you share that resonates with me is because of your early aggressive savings, we’ll talk about more of that here in a little bit with your FIRE journey. You know, that gives you some permission to say, Hey, this is a season we’re in. This is a season of expenses, you know, may not be forever, it’s gonna look different in a few years. You mentioned that already. But let’s say the opposite was true. Let’s say you guys didn’t save it all in the first five, seven, now 10 years, a decade coming up on graduation. That’s another layer of stress, right? Because, hey, we’ve now got rising expenses. And we feel like we need to play catch up. And because you saved early in the journey, there probably isn’t that nagging feeling of hey, we’ve got to catch up. Right. So again, breathing room, and margin. So our theme for today is PharmD to Debt Free to FIRE. So again, graduated 2014 Debt free journey – paid off those student loans in 2018. Now you’re really on this path and evolution towards building wealth and towards financial independence. We’ve talked about FIRE on the podcast many times, we’ve got a lot of resources on their website, if that term is new to those listening: Financial Independence, Retire Early. So we’re going to spend a bulk of our interview talking through that with Derek what what does that mean to him? Where is he at? And the journey? Why are they on the fire journey? And what has that looked like practically for them and their family? So, Derek, let me start there. It seems that the the term FIRE while there’s formulas, calculations, all these things about how we can determine what our FI number is, I recognize that can mean something different to everyone. So what does FIRE mean to you and to your family?

Derek Schwartz 14:18

For us, it just means that we retire on our own terms. We both had the goal of retiring when we were 50. That’s the goal. And because I love my wife, I will not say how old she is on a podcast. I am 34. That means I want to retire in 16 years. By the time I’m 50, we are done working and we want to pursue other interests. The nice thing about being on this FIRE journey and being aggressive with saving when we did is with two kids, we looked at each other we’re like, hey, this might be 55 now. that’s still really early. Hey, we might push it back to like, you know, 57-58. Maybe 60, we work part time that’s still early. The the financial independence side of the FIRE to us just means, hey, we’re on our own terms. If we want to pursue other interests, we can do that if we want to, you know, scale back how much we’re working, we can do that. If we want to explore other interests that can make us money, we can do that and just leave our professions that we have behind. But once we get to that point, we’ll know that we’re covered financially. And then you know, the sky, the sky’s the limit from there where we can, you know, instead of diversifying your your money, where it’s going, diversify your interests and see what you know, what calls for you.

Tim Ulbrich 15:40

Yeah, what I really hear there, Derek is options and opportunities that you could pursue, and it might be one of many different pathways. Maybe you decide to work part time, maybe you don’t, maybe decide to travel a bunch, you know, maybe there’s grandkids at that point in the future, and you want to have the flexibility of time, like, you know, maybe it’s something that you’re not even thinking about at this point, whether it’s volunteering, and you know, there’s a ton of different things that could be, but having the option to, right, that that is what really resonates with me when people talk about financial independence, regardless of what the number is, or what the age is, is, you know, maybe it’s retire early, maybe it’s not. But there’s options to pursue A, B, C, D E. I talked with somebody recently on the FIRE journey, I guess, we’ve had on the podcast before Corey Jenks. And he gave an example of, you know, I think he referenced like walking into a sporting goods store or another type of business. And he was like, Oh, that’s interesting. Like, maybe someday I just would want to try to work at one of these and kind of see what it’s like. And when you’re on an FI pathway, like, those are the kinds of things that you can, quote, take a risk on or roll the dice and say, oh, this would be interesting to do for, you know, six or 12 months, whatever that might be. So I love what you’re sharing there. One of the barriers I often see, Derek is two individuals getting on the same page, not just in general with their finance. But here’s we’re talking about with FIRE. And you know, often you might have one person who’s gung ho, let’s go. And maybe they even started the FIRE journey before they met their significant other, spouse or partner. So my question for you is, have you guys always been on the same page? Has this been an evolution, it sounds like you’re very much in the shared vision of 50, or 55-57. Whatever that age is. Tell us more about how you’ve been able to work together and get on the same page.

Derek Schwartz 17:25

Yeah, I’m, I am so blessed to have my wife. Because on our first date, we talked about just being financially independent, that was just such a goal for both of us. Probably weirded out a lot of people were sitting by at the restaurant we were at. But that was just a goal for both of us. She was debt free when I met her, she owned her own home, she wanted to get into real estate, she was already on that path I had, you know, my path is so much different from hers, because I had all this debt I had to pay off that she still had some, but she had paid it off years before I met her. So we were on the same journey of getting to financial independence. But we started completely different areas, and we just happen to meet at the time where, you know, I was ready to start saving at the level that we wanted to. So at the time we met, I was talking about, you know, buying my first home, eventually, we as we dated, I kind of weaseled my way into her house, decided to just live there and pay her rent and then we got married from there. But it’s just always been a passion for both of us because we have so many more interests that aren’t tied to our jobs. We both love our jobs, we love our work. But, we love other things, too. And part of that is with our kids, we want them to be also financially independent. And that’s you can’t do you can’t preach that you’re not doing it. And that’s just that’s really that’s a hard place to be in of you know, teaching discipline with your kids and teaching, you know, financial independence and you know, being your own person and not you just you know, having so much debt that you can’t, you know, do the goals that you want to do.

Tim Ulbrich 19:10

Yeah, and I appreciate the perspective you have on that Derek and I know you’ve got young ones you mentioned the the ages a little while ago. One of the things I’m appreciate with my boys, my oldest now going to be 13 in the summer, as they are observing and picking up on things way younger, you know, then you would think. Sure, they might not be able to articulate it. But there is definitely a culture in the house around money. They become very aware of how individuals are talking about money. Is it you know, fearful? Is it stressful? Is it an open conversation? Is it a closed conversation? And we’re gonna be talking more about that on the podcast here in the future about kids and money. It’s a really, really important topic. But you know, I think just a note of encouragement to parents out there like hey, we’re not going to get it right all the time. I haven’t gotten it right. Jess and I haven’t gotten it right all the time. But, you know, really being cognizant and aware of the dialogue, the culture, the tenor, the tone of what’s happening financially in the household. I think it’s so important. Derek, you mentioned 50. And I heard that evolve 53, 55, 57. You know, when I hear that age, often an objection that will come up is, well, how are we actually going to be able to fund that, right? You know, we’re not yet at Social Security age, you know, maybe we’ve got dollars that are tied up predominantly in traditional retirement accounts, 401k, 403B’s, IRAs can’t access those to 59 and a half without penalty. You know, so then becomes this question of, well, how do we actually produce a paycheck when we’re at an early retirement age, and of course, all the fears that may come of hey, we’re gonna run out of money too early, and where we need health insurance benefits. Talk to us about how you guys are thinking about that, while still a ways away. I’m sure it’s something that’s been on your mind.

Derek Schwartz 20:49

Yeah, that’s, that’s something that we, that one of the first things we talked about as, hey, if we retire at 50, what do we do? So we have different accounts that, you know, you can’t touch certain retirement accounts until a certain age, we also have taxable accounts that we can dip into. We have money that’s set aside just in savings that we can get to at anytime. By that time, we we have a 15 year mortgage, so our house would be paid for. So it’s kind of just like leveling with what do we have to anticipate paying for? What to what accounts can we get into what can’t we get into? What does that mean for hey, if we retire at 50, are we actually retired? Can we do all the things we want? Or do we have to kind of like, play it slow a little bit until we can get into into some more taxable accounts that we’re holding on to? And, you know, it’s flexible. And we’d rather have that conversation to 50, than than 70, or 75. So it’s kind of a non answer, it’s almost a we’ll see when we get to it. And that’s why it’s so nice, just for it to be so flexible, because we don’t know, you know, what that looks like at 50. And then, you know, if, like, we have to say, hey, we’re gonna work till 55 now, that’s not a big deal. And that might not even be a full time at that point. That might just be like, you know, hey, we’re both working part time both our kids are, you know, 18, maybe out of the house and college, maybe they’re doing their own thing, you know, and we can downsize our house, there’s a lot of options that you can have. So, another thing that we look at is, instead of saying, hey, at 50, what do we do? We’d rather do that and say, hey, we’re, we got to 65, Social Security is not there. Hey, we’re not getting the health insurance we thought we’d get because you don’t know what things are going to be. And with all those variables that are so many are out of your control that you don’t know. So we’re planning for those to just not be there. And so that’s kind of a, a different way to look at it. Because most people will assume that Social Security will be there, they’ll have some some kind of health insurance. We’re looking at it as, hey, if we retire at 50, on our own, can we do it? And we think we’re on track to do that. But if we have to push it, we can push it.

Tim Ulbrich 23:12

Yeah. And what I hear there, Derek, is being comfortable with the uncomfortable and the unknowns, but not necessarily just kind of put your hands up and saying, hey, there’s not planning that can be done, right. You mentioned several variables, assumptions that any one of those can change, some of them will change, some of them may be better than you thought, worse than you thought. So there’s planning that needs to be done. And we so often talk about the accumulation phase. Right. But we don’t often talk about the de-cumulation phase. Whether that’s early retirement or not, you’re gonna have several of these buckets of assets, right? You mentioned brokerage accounts, you mentioned traditional accounts, you’ve obviously got your home, that will be an asset, perhaps there’s real estate now or in the future. I mean, you’re gonna have all these different buckets, maybe there’s social security involved. And it’s a matter and function of okay, well, for 55. Where are we drawing from those? And how do we do that in a tax efficient way? And how do we make sure that we’re optimizing which buckets we’re drawing from, and essentially, what we have to do is, you know, our working career, we work and we get a paycheck, right? Well, when we’re not working, or working part time, and we need to fill up the rest of that income bucket, we have to produce our own paycheck in retirement, whether that’s early or not. And I think there’s so many nuances and planning opportunities there that we just don’t talk enough about how do we actually produce that retirement paycheck? You mentioned 15 year mortgage. I want to talk about that for a moment. Because, you know, obviously, you’re, you’re a math guy, you’re on the FI journey. And, you know, there’s this debate that’s always ongoing of 15 versus 30. Year and what’s the opportunity cost and, you know, getting out of debt and versus carrying a low interest rate debt for a longer term. As you’re someone who’s looking at an aggressive savings rate, you know, an argument could be made potentially that hey, anything you’re paying on a 15 year that you could, you know, have paid on a 30 year or lesser amount than you could have invested the difference. You know, obviously there’s an opportunity there to way of paying down the debt versus investing for the for future, the most common question we get, hey, should I be paying down my debt? Should I be investing? How did you think through that process of, hey, let’s make a higher monthly mortgage payment. And therefore, you know that that is money that could have potentially been invested versus maybe you did decide to take out a 30 year, and it’s a lower amount, but you’re able to invest more talk us through that.

Derek Schwartz 25:20

Yeah, that’s an interesting story, because we bought her home in the summer of 2020. And taking, taking some time to look back on that time in the mortgage arena, we got a 3% fixed interest rate. You’re not getting that anytime soon, anywhere else. So we made the decision of hey, like, this is an interest rate that it’s basically non-existent. 3% it’s is absurd, and especially in today’s market. So a 15 year mortgage, that’s not really that much of a difference between a 30 year and then you also you still have something like wiggle room to, you know, take some money on the home, and do that sort of things. And it’s funny, what do we do that now, probably not. It would probably be a 30 year, if we were to move and buy a new home. It would probably be a 30 year mortgage. And it’s just interesting, because when you’re out of debt, you look at different ways to I don’t want to say manipulate what you’re doing with your money, but to just kind of be flexible with it, is that instead of saying, Hey, we have to, you know, think of a different way we’re paying on our home, we might have to think of a different differently. We think of it in a way of, you know, how can we take advantage of the situation that we put ourselves in, we were both out of debt, we bought our home? How can we make this situation benefit us? And that’s, that’s such the nice thing about being in the FIRE mindset of, first of all, being in the FIRE mindset, you’re out of debt. And then secondly, how can we use factors around us to benefit us. And that’s something you can’t do when you have when you have a lot of debt, and you don’t have the the FIRE mindset if you’ve already been saving. And that’s not a realistic expectation for people right now. But if you set yourself up to be in a position where you want to be FIRE, and you want to be really aggressive retiring, that is a situation that anyone can easily be in.

Tim Ulbrich 27:24

Yeah, I appreciate that. And I presented the question as a dichotomous variable of hey, you could have either taken out debt longer invest that, of course, it’s not that simple. And one of the variables that’s unique to you guys, is you did aggressively save early on. So there already was that that base of savings. You know, if someone isn’t in that position, and they’re weighing, you know, should I be taken out a longer term mortgage or shorter term? And where am I investing? The question they have to factor in, among many others is, am I on track? Am I ahead? Am I behind? And, you know, certainly that will, will change the equation, how we look at that, as well. When you guys came up with your FI number, I’m curious to hear more about how you determine what this is and how you evaluate this on an ongoing basis, you know, in the FI community, which you’re more plugged in than I am, but there’s everything from back of napkin, you know, rule 25: take your total annual expenses, including taxes multiplied by 25. That’s based on the 4% rule. We’ve talked about that on the show before. And then there’s, you know, much more nuanced calculators that are out there and available. So tell us more about how you guys have evaluated what your FI number is?

Derek Schwartz 28:28

Yeah, we’re much less we’re not even that nuanced. We just, we pick a number, hey, 50, what do we need to do to get there? And that wasn’t a let’s calculate what we have what we’re saving it, plug it into something. And that’s what the number comes up. We started our FIRe journey being like, it’s going to be 50. What do we need to do to get there? And I think, looking at that way, it simplifies it a lot more, because you look at it from a perspective of, if that’s the goal, all right, um, when we started, that was a couple years ago, so it was like 18 years to 50. What are we doing in the next 18 years to get there? And at that point, we didn’t have kids, and then kids come, and we’re like, alright, 50 might not be possible. We went to push it, but 50 it still could be possible. What can we what can we cut back on a little bit to get there? So I think that’s such a nice thing about FIRE is that, you know, it, it’s so adaptable to what you want to do. You can it can be 55, it can be 60. It can just be an unknown age, where you just you have your, your budget, you look at it, you look at what you’re saving, and you’re like, yeah, we can just do it now. And then just start your, you know, FIRE journey from there. Yeah, an important thing and for those that are new on this FIRE journey, what you’ll quickly realize is you start to run numbers is your annual expenses is, is really the factor that’s going to drive this equation the most both in terms of what you need, right? Because your projected need is based off of what you’re going to have to potentially draw. So if you have two pharmacists, let’s say both making $125,000, one is able to live off of 50% of their income, one’s able to live off of 80% of their income, their FI numbers are going to be very, very different. And thus, their savings rates are going to be very different because of the percentage of their income, right, that’s available and able to say, so easier said than done. You know, we know that pharmacists cost of living, individual situations, but you see this on the regular where you know, someone who’s able to really drive down cost of living expenses. And there’s a balance here that we have to factor in, versus someone that is not able to for whatever reason, those numbers of what that FI number is going to be in the timeline to get there are going to be drastically different for sure. Derek, one of things we talk a lot about on this show is we firmly believe from personal experience and working with hundreds of pharmacists, one-on-one on this topic that a good financial plan, it’s a marathon, it’s not a sprint, we really have to be striking this balance between, yes, we have to be ready for the future. Yes, we have to take care of our future selves. But we also have to be making sure we’re prioritizing living a rich life today. And we tend to think about these on one end of the spectrum or the other. Right, there’s some that we see are very, very aggressive savers. But aren’t necessarily comfortable with spending in any capacity. And then there, of course, is the opposite end of the equation as well. How have you guys been able to, especially with a young family, strike this balance between, hey, we need to continue to push forward with getting our FI number. And whatever that age and goal is, but also like, hey, this is a season in a phase of life, that we also want to make sure that we’re living a rich life, we know that eventually this season will pass as well.

Derek Schwartz 31:49

Yeah, that’s, it’s always something when you have kids, everything changes. And you know, everyone’s gonna tell you that you don’t believe it until you’re in it. And that’s something that, you know, you want to enrich your kids lives with different experiences and do things. And, you know, we’ve talked about, hey, we could take them to Disney World, we can take them on a nice vacation, we could also go to a national park. There’s a different cost difference with those, especially if you can like drive to one. We live in Cincinnati so we’re close to Mammoth Cave systems, Red River Gorge in Kentucky, it’s a really nice places that you know, the kids will enjoy. And that’s a big cost savings as opposed to like a more expensive vacation like Disney. Nothing against Disney, my daughter loves frozen, she will eventually go. But that’s something that right now with, we have more expenses, because we have two very young kids, we have a nanny that we’re paying for. Once they’re older, and they’re in school, we don’t have the the nanny costs, some of that costs goes towards maybe a new car fund, maybe that goes to vacation funds. So we can do like a yearly vacation somewhere nice. That goes back into retirements, and it just kind of like just kind of morphs, it’s kind of like a primordial soup of just the funds are there. They’re being used for this, they’re being used for that. What can we do now to make sure that, hey, when the time is right, we can afford that vacation, we can afford to take them on, like really, you know, fun, like family trips to like Disney. And right now that looks like you know, more affordable options, we take them to the Cincinnati kids museum, which is a great place for kids, we take them the national parks. And those are so much more affordable and fit within our current FIRE budget without, you know, just sitting at home and not doing anything. So it’s, it’s in terms of what you do with family enrichment, it depends on what you want to do, how much you’re paying now for expenses that won’t be there. And for us, we have expenses of a nanny that won’t be there for too long. It’s going to be here for a couple of years. But then after that, it’s like okay, we’re gonna go back to saving more aggressively. How about we also save aggressively for a nice trip, How about we save aggressively for, you know, programs that we want our kids in? So, and we couldn’t do that without being out of debt. I keep going back to getting out of debt. But that’s just so important because it just allows you to be on that platform to just do so many different things with what you want to do with your money.

Tim Ulbrich 34:37

Great stuff. My last question for you, Derek, is you know, for the for the students or new grads that might be listening. They’re saying, Derek, this is great. But dot dot, dot, I’ve got $175,000 of debt. I’m trying to purchase a house in this housing environment where costs are crazy. Interest rates are crazy. And I feel like there’s not a whole lot of margin and sure, maybe I’d like to pursue a FIRE journey. But at a minimum, I’d like to just build a good foundation and make sure that I’ve got a solid plan. What advice would you have for new grads coming out today in 2024? As you look back now 10 years ago, just a different space that we’re in. What are your thoughts for those new grads coming out today?

Derek Schwartz 35:17

Yeah, it’s, you have to realize what goals you want to accomplish first. Some people want to own a home. I’m not going to tell people to not buy a house. Some people want to start a family and never going to tell people to not have a family. When you have a lot of debt, and unfortunately, with a lot of pharmacists, pharmacy students coming out, the grads and some people do residencies, where they’re not making their like full salary yet. It’s hard to say to someone, hey, you know, you got to really get on that debt and get that down. From what I saw, when I started my journey of paying off my debt, I was working with a lot of older pharmacists, that when I was in my like, early 20s, and a lot of them were like, hey, if I was, if I could go back 30 years be in your shoes, I would do exactly what you’re doing. And that’s the affirmation that I needed that I was on the right path, because it wasn’t fun. Paying off debt is not fun. It is it is not glamorous, it is not full of constant rewards, you’re not doing a lot of things, you’re just watching a number go down. And that’s all it’s doing. But once you get out and pass through that, your options just expanded so much. And there are some people that you know, graduate, they already have a family, they already have a house. That requires you know, a sit down with your spouse, your partner, and talking about a budget of hey, you know, how can we get this down? How can we get to where we need to go? Yeah, and the first step that I would encourage is to budget and figure out a number of like, when is the realistic goal we can pay it off? And I think figuring that number out, for some people might be longer than they thought it would. And that’s a really important step is to figure out, look at all of our expenses, maybe you have a mortgage, you have the expense of kids, you’re thinking, hey, you know, we can knock this student loan down in a couple of years. It’s actually like 10. Do you want to wait 10 years to pay that off? Or what can you do now to like, chip that number down to five? What can you do to chip it down to six? And then those you know, four or five years you save of not being you know, chained down with your student loans, it can be really reassuring, kind of a kick to get into gear, to get some stuff done.

Tim Ulbrich 37:49

Great stuff there. This has been a joy to reconnect and hear your story. Hear where you’re at seven years later. Hear how the foundation you built early. You’re seeing the fruit of that now and I think there’s only more fruit to come. So thank you so much for taking time to come on the show and to give us an update where you’re at.

Derek Schwartz 38:06

Great to be back.

Tim Ulbrich 38:07

[DISCLAIMER] As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 342: Replay – How Two Pharmacists Paid Off $250k of Student Loan Debt

Posted on January 18, 2024January 18, 2024 by YFP Media

Kristen & Nate Hedrick share their journey paying off $250k student loan debt from the motivation to the role of side hustles and real estate investing.

Episode Summary

How do you go about aggressively paying off a $250,000 student loan debt without feeling overwhelmed? To help answer that question, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, is joined by fellow pharmacists Nate Hedrick, PharmD, and Kristen Hedrick, PharmD, BCACP. The Hedricks tell us how they successfully paid off over $250,000 in student loan debt, their motivation for tackling that debt, the pivotal moment that sparked making repayment a priority, and the role a side hustle and real estate investing played in their journey. After a brief history of Kristen’s background, listeners will hear what motivated the couple to take an aggressive stance on their debt repayments, how a life-changing event and one book altered their financial philosophy, and how the pandemic helped them focus on their strategy. Nate and Kristen share their reasons behind paying their debt off now instead of putting their money toward investments and how they found an additional $3,443 per month to make their goal attainable by reducing expenses and increasing their income. This earnest conversation takes us through the possibilities of working full time, raising a family, making investments, and paying off a huge debt, all at the same time. Nate and Kristen talk about their life after paying off this debt and share some advice for pharmacists who may be struggling with a similar debt situation.

About Today’s Guests

Nate and Kristen Hedrick met at Ohio Northern University and were married in 2013. Nate is a pharmacist with Medical Mutual and a real estate agent with Berkshire Hathaway. Kristen is a pharmacist with Bon Secour Mercy Health. Together, they graduated with over $300,000+ in student loan debt. They enjoy visiting National Parks as a family. Today they live in the suburbs of Cleveland, Ohio, with their two daughters, Molly and Lucy, and their rescue dog Lexi.

Key Points from the Episode

Kristen’s background, how she ended up in pharmacy, and what she’s doing now.
What their student loan debt looked like at its peak.
How student debt can creep up and surprise you.
The initial feelings the couple had towards their debt and their plans to pay it off.
What motivated our guests to come up with an aggressive plan for paying back their debt.
How a life-changing event (and a book) in 2016 changed everything.
The global pandemic as a moment of inspiration.
What they had to change in their lives to be able to make the monthly repayments.
Paying off debt now versus investing for the future.
The way the couple used ‘double motivation’ to reconcile an age-old debate.
How our guests were able to raise a child, invest, and pay off a huge debt at the same time.
Nate’s decision to pursue real estate investing and what that meant for their debt repayments.
The approach the couple has taken to make real estate investing work for their family.
Other strategies that helped to pay off the debt aside from cutting expenses and real estate investments.
The benefits of receiving objective, third-party advice.
What life is like now after paying off their massive debt.
How paying off the debt helped Nate make an important career decision.
Kristen’s advice for the pharmacist struggling with debt.
Nate’s parting words of wisdom.

Episode Highlights

“That was the worst that it got and, that same month, for what it’s worth, we had a negative net worth of $306,000. We had about 10k to our name and a bunch of debt to add on to that.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:03:44]

“I had no plan early on until we developed the ‘why’, which was getting our financial house in order so that we could live the way that we wanted to.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:06:23]

“The expenses were the catalyst, and then it was the extra income side of the equation that really boosted everything to actually make it possible.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:13:37]

“Spending more time with the kids without having that student loan debt, and being able to do more things and travel more, it feels like it’s definitely paying off in the end, with making some of those sacrifices.” — Kristen Hedrick, PharmD, BCACP [0:17:16]

“One great thing about real estate investing is even if something happens, you still own a building.” — Kristen Hedrick, PharmD, BCACP [0:22:00]

“Find something that is going to supplement your life that the more effort you put into it, the more reward you get out of it. That is a really great way to set yourself up for success.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:29:32]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here. Thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Kristen and Nate Hedrick to discuss their journey of paying off $250,000 of student loan debt. In this show, we discuss their motivation and why, for aggressively paying down the debt. What the pivot moment was that motivated them to make the debt repayment a priority, how they were able to come up with more than $3,000 per month extra to throw towards the loans, and the role a side hustle and real estate investing played in helping them pay down the debt.

Before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers free only, high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional.

If you’re interested in learning more about working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Nate and Kristen Hedrick to learn how and why they aggressively paid off $250,000 in student loan debt.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:23.4] TU: Kristen and Nate, welcomed to the show.

[0:01:24.7] NH: Hey Tim, good to be here.

[0:01:26.1] KH: Hi.

[0:01:27.0] TU: So Nate, obviously, you’re a frequent flyer. You’re old news so I’m not even going to spend a whole lot of time focusing on you. Many folks have heard you on the podcast before, whether it’s this show, talking about home buying, whether it’s the Real Estate Investing podcast on Saturday mornings, of course, Nate being the cohost of that show.

So, we’re going to focus a little bit more on Kristen’s background as we get started, and we’re going to jump into more about your debt-free journey and how ultimately, you guys were able to knock out $250,000 of debt, and what that has meant to you guys personally, to your family, as well as also the financial goals and plan that you have going forward.

So, before we jump into that debt payoff and that journey, Kristen, let’s start with you. Tell us a little bit more about your background, what drew you into pharmacy, where you went to school and the work that you’re doing now.

[0:02:13.0] KH: Yeah, thanks. I had some extended family members in pharmacy so I just thought it would be a good career path, and looked at the different pharmacy schools and found my way to Ohio Northern in the middle of cornfields, and no cellphone reception and for some reason, that’s where I wanted to go. I think we all know it’s a great campus and community there.

So went to Ohio Northern and that’s where Nate and I met. I completed my residency here in Cleveland, Ohio. Now I work for a large health system doing population health on clinical pharmacy, and following patients with their chronic disease states and helping them with their medicines, and helping in here in Cleveland.

[0:02:50.8] TU: Kristen, it’s funny you mentioned the cellphone reception in Ada Ohio, Ohio Northern University. I remember, I maybe as a P3, P4, just a few years ahead of you guys, but it was a big deal that they added a tower on campus, and I think we got one bar, maybe two bars, but not a whole lot going on in Ada Ohio. I had the chance to go back recently and take Jess and the boys. It was so fun to see campus and really relive some of the memories in that place.

So Nate, tell us about the student loan debt at its peak? What were you guys working with and then, from there, we’ll get into more of some of the motivation and journey of paying it off.

[0:03:26.4] NH: Yeah. So, when we graduated and totaled everything up and, I think it was even a month or two after we graduated that I even wanted to look at it. Because it was the initial plan of, “I just won’t look at it and then it won’t be a problem.” And when we totaled it all up, looking back at our highest count, we were at $316,000 in student loan debt at one point.

So, that was the worst that it got and, that same month, for what it’s worth, we had a negative net worth of $306,000, so we had about 10k to our name and a bunch of debt to add on to that.

[0:03:54.8] TU: I’m curious, did that surprise you guys? One of the stories I often share is that, it’s somewhat embarrassing, but when I was in pharmacy school, it felt a little bit like monopoly money, and it was all of a sudden when I crunch the numbers and I was like, “I owe how much, and how much interest, and what’s my net worth?” It just caught me off-guard, and it shouldn’t have. Were you expecting that or was that number somewhat a surprise at that point?

[0:04:15.4] NH: I agree, it was just totally like made up funds, you know? Every quarter or every semester, I’d have to go and submit for what I needed, and it was the tuition plus a little bit of living expenses, and I would just submit for it and it would get added into this imaginary pile of money somewhere, and I don’t think I ever checked the balance while I was in school, I don’t know why, I don’t know why I would have.

[0:04:35.7] TU: You’re dating yourself Nate, when you talk about quarters by the way. So that ain’t a thing anymore.

[0:04:40.7] NH: Old school, how I work.

[0:04:42.7] TU: Kristen, tell us about the plan that you guys had for the student loans after graduation, after you got married in 2013. How did you feel about the debt overall and then, what was the thought in that moment about how are you going to pay this off?

[0:04:55.7] KH: I think our main thought was it’s overwhelming. It’s just such a large amount that it feels so ambiguous that we thought that we had this plan. We had always wanted to try to pay it off within 10 years. I think I was a little more on track of, “Oh, I want to pay this off in 10 years” and we had some advice from a previous financial advisor that had said, “Oh, it’s just student loan debt, everyone has it, it will be okay.” We changed it to 30 years so we could have minimum payments but always pay extra if we wanted to and, ultimately, we just found that that eventually did not work as well for us.

We needed a more targeted plan to get us on track with what we were doing. We had always been paying the amounts, but I think it was how we were planning to target to actually pay it off. It always felt like this end date that we were never going to get to.

[0:05:44.4] TU: One of the questions I like to ask folks, and we’ll talk more in a little bit about how aggressive you guys were to really get a chunk of this paid off, but I like to understand, what’s the why? What’s the motivation behind it? It’s one of these things, as you mentioned, you can take them out 25, 30 years if you want to. Obviously, you guys made a good decision to be much more aggressive. Tell me more about for the two of you, for your family, why was that important?

[0:06:08.2] NH: It’s funny you say that because I think until I had a why, it wasn’t important. Like I said, I didn’t look at it, I barely wanted to check it. I think at one point in residency, I put myself on the graduated repayment plan and my only motivation was because the payment today is lower and that seems like—that seems better, right?

I had no plan early on, until we developed the ‘why’, which was getting our financial house in order so that we could live the way that we wanted to. Travel, work less, work in the capacities that we wanted to, all the things that have led us to this point. Until I had that in place, there wasn’t a why and it didn’t matter.

[0:06:42.7] TU: Yeah, I think that’s such a good encouragement for folks that are in the midst of their journey, or maybe have wondered into the repayment or for that matter, the financial plan at large, and feel like, “Hey, maybe I’m progressing but not as quickly as I would like to. I’m a little bit stuck.” Really going back to what gets us excited, right?

The topic of money, money is a tool. So, what gets us excited, why do we care bout this topic of money, why do we care about debt repayment, why do we care about saving/investing for the future, why do we care about giving? And then using that as the motivation to drive some of the action and the plan going forward.

So, Nate, what happened in 2016 that was really a motivation to say, “Hey, we’ve got to do something different?”

[0:07:22.0] NH: Yeah, that really is when it changed for us and, again, we’d been paying on them and, every once in a while, we get the idea that, “Hey, we should throw in some extra money because these loans are huge.” We would do it for a couple of months and I feel like we just were inconsistent. But in 2016, we got pregnant with our first child and, again, I tell this story on the podcast several times, but I read Rich Dad Poor Dad and it completely changed my mindset about money and what I wanted to do with money and what I wanted to do with my life and work, and just how I looked at finances.

It’s crazy it took that long to figure that out but I had no formal financial education. We go through pharmacy school, not business school, and until I read that book and changed how I wanted to approach finances in general, again, I didn’t have that why behind it. I didn’t have that motivation, so that’s what really jumpstarted us. I think it was a combination of, “Oh crap, we have a kid on the way and we have to pay for a lot of stuff” and again, this mindset shift that occurred, at least for me.

[0:08:16.1] TU: Kristen, I’m curious. I can just see Nate, because I know him now, I could see him like this totally nerding out over Rich Dad Poor Dad and coming to you with all these ideas and, “What about this, what about that?” Were you equally on fire in that moment or was there different motivations that really led you to say “Hey, we’ve got to do this differently?”

[0:08:34.4] KH: Yeah, I think I had always wanted to pay off the loan. Again, it was just so—it was a large amount that I think I didn’t know how to get there. When Nate said he read Rich Dad Poor Dad, he kept talking about it and talking about it. I think finally, in 2019, I read it, I said, “Oh, this is a really good book, I should have done it sooner”

So, I think we are a really good team together, in trying to work together and get those payments down, and Nate was very much more into it. I think at the time, I was like, I’m growing a human, I’m just going to keep doing what I’m doing, and that was the time that Nate entered real estate. He’s told this story before but, I’m six months pregnant and he goes, “Oh, I think I want to get my real estate license.” This is a time most people would have been getting board certified.

He’s like, “I’m going to go get my real estate license.” He had classes multiple times a week and I’m pregnant, trying to take care of the house and do all these things, getting ready for a baby. So, it paid off in the end and I’m glad that he did it, but I think in the moment there was also that stressful situation for me, but he’s a jack of all trades. He does lots of things and keeps busy, so it’s good.

[0:09:36.0] TU: We’re going to come back to that in a little bit, of what role did that play, Nate, for you, in terms of pursuing that, as you call, a side hustle. It’s much bigger than that, the work that you’re doing now, obviously, but why was that so instrumental, and not only to the numbers but also to some of the mindset and the motivation behind the financial plan and the journey that you were on?

I want to first talk about, though, Nate, walk us through what happened in the pandemic that really allowed you guys to say, “Hey, we’re going to get specific about when we’re going to payoff a big chunk of this debt, what it’s going to take each month.” Talk to us about what happened during the pandemic that led you to the decision around how you were going to pay off a huge portion of that debt.

[0:10:15.5] NH: Yeah, so, like I said, 2016 is where we started getting pretty serious, but even then, it wasn’t truly resolute plan, right? It was just, “Okay, we really got to be focusing on throwing extra money at this” and we did a lot better. But in 2020, we had a month or two in the pandemic and realized, “Okay, we’re not traveling as much, we’re not going to be going out to eat as much, everything shut down, let’s use this time to take the extra money that we’re not spending and really attack that loan.” At one point and, again, we were talking this morning, it was right at the end of the year, we said, “Okay, this thing is not going away, let’s really use next year to just get rid of this loan.”

So, right in December of 2020 and going into the beginning of the New Year, we said, “Let’s figure out a number. What is it that’s going to take to get this loan knocked out at the end of the year? Who cares of the balances right now, we’re going to do it in a year, let’s make sure to get it done.” So, we did some crunching of some numbers and basically said, “Okay, if we can pay everything we’re paying today but also throw an extra $3,443 at the loan every single month, mine will be gone by the end of the year and it will be just knocked out.”

So, that number, I wrote it on the big note card over here and it became like—actually got it here, I’ll grab it. Here you go, so there’s the evidence, right? 3,443. So, that became—I put that everywhere and it became the mantra of like, “If we can do that every single month, this will be gone” and that was such a huge motivator for us.

[0:11:32.8] TU: I don’t want to brush over that, because we’ll talk about it, I mean, that’s a big number, so we’re going to talk about the how of that, but tell us more about how you were able to get to that conclusion and get on the same page with that conclusion? What I’m specifically getting at here is, was it a, “hey budget status quo and we’re going to find ways to grow our income”? Was it a, “we’re going to cut some expenses”? How did you guys work through the details, Kristen, to ultimately say, “Yup, it’s $3,443 and this is how we’re going to do it.”

[0:12:04.5] KH: I think it was a little bit of a combination of both. During the pandemic, we had a little bit more interest. I think also, in doing some real estate investing and had an opportunity, we said, “Okay, do we take this money and do we put it towards real estate or do we pay down the loan more?” and eventually, we decide real estate, but we said, “Hey, like, maybe we should aggressively pay off our loan a little bit more if we are traveling and doing these things.”

So, I think in December, we had a lot of discussion about it and both of us just decided yes, we both want that to be our goal, that starting January 1st, we really start cutting back on what we’re spending. I think, really, from any area that we could, we went thorough our budget, we scrubbed it. We said, “What are we spending money on, what are the subscriptions we have, what can we cut out, what can we save money on?”

“Which of those little purchases can we just stop doing? Which things do we think that we need, can we actually hold off on buying?” and then, certainly, Nate’s side hustle helped with that as well. So, I think it was both a combination of, let’s cut back to really bare minimum spending. We weren’t eating out, we weren’t getting the extra cups of coffee from Starbucks, we weren’t doing the purchases at Target that said, “This is what you need, and this is in the dollar spot.” We just stopped all of that. And Nate worked as hard as he could with his real estate; it really is a motivator to keep putting that extra money towards it as well.

[0:13:22.3] NH: Yeah, I think we quickly realized that trying to find for an extra $3,000 in the budget. We weren’t over spending by three grand every month, that was not it, so it became my challenge to say, “Okay, well, how can I work at this side hustle to really get us the rest of the way?” So, the expenses were the catalyst, and then it was the extra income side of the equation that really boosted everything to actually make it possible.

[0:13:44.7] TU: Yeah. What I love about that is, certainly, cutting expenses, especially short-term, if you’re focused on a goal, you were talking about debt repayment, can be really valuable but it also can be a grind. I mean, it can be soul sucking sometimes, you know?

I think that one of the things I love about the approach that you took is that if you’re moving both sides of the equation, there’s a different level of momentum and mindset that come from that. Maybe the numbers aren’t as big for other folks that are pursuing ideas, but if you can both focus on, “Hey, how can we draw the income and how can we keep the expenses?” you all of a sudden feel like you’re picking up momentum in a significant way, but I don’t want to brush over that number.

$3,443 per month, that’s, for many pharmacist, if we assume, hundred, $120,000 of wage, it’s like, it’s about half of take home pay. I mean, for a lot of folks, we look at that at a monthly basis so that’s certainly commendable, and that’s a big number. Nate, I want to ask the question that I know the listeners are thinking, which is Nate, Kristen, you guys are smart. $3,443, why not invest that money?

Why not put that out so we could see that grow and compound over 20, 30, 40 years? Like, how did you guys reconcile this ongoing debate, which is maybe a little bit of a moot point right now because the administrative forbearance, but this ongoing debate of, “Should I pay down the debt or should I invest for the future?”

[0:15:03.9] NH: Yeah. This is something we struggled with for years. Should we go out and buy another rental property or should we just take this money and throw it at the loan? That’s been the back and forth. Like Kristen was saying, we were evaluating whether we should be doing real estate or paying down the debt.

We challenged ourself to say like, “Can we do both?” and so, for me, again, working and trying to add extra income to the equation. It became a game of, “Okay, if I can make $3,000 a month extra, that’s going to get us there. But if I can make 4,000 or 5,000, that’s another couple of grand I can put at the real estate investing budget.”

So what we have, we had a bucket in LI, in our LI bank account, that was the real estate investing fund and we still have that, we still use it, it is a great way to separate our money. I had to pull from that in any month that I didn’t make enough income to really make the difference, I had to pull out of that. So it was like this, I was afraid to give it up. So it became a challenge to myself and to us.

We need to cut our expenses and raise our income in a way where I can keep padding that account, that bucket, while also meeting our number. It was a double motivator of let’s get rid of the debt and I don’t want to lose sight of the other thing that I’m really passionate about. So, let us find a way to do both.

[0:16:09.8] TU: Kristen, we both know that kids could be expensive. We love them, but it can be very expensive. I think one of the challenges folks have that are raising young family, whether it is debt repayment, whether it is achieving other financial goals, is it’s an expensive phase of life, right?

The data suggested it’s multiples of hundreds of thousands to be able to raise a child, and I am curious of how you guys were able to reconcile this with young ones? I know you guys are so active and intentional as a family now. When you’re looking ahead to say, “Hey, this is a sacrifice now but it is going to allow us to really push our goals forward as a family later in the future.” Tell us about your thoughts on that.

[0:16:46.9] KH: For sure. I remember being pregnant in 2016 and just thinking like, “Oh my gosh, I already feel like we’re living paycheck to paycheck, how are we possibly going to raise a child and afford daycare?” We even joke now, our big expense is mortgage. Childcare and student loan debt was there, our mortgage was the least expensive of all of those.

So yes, certainly having kids is—we always felt like we knew we wanted to have kids and it was just figuring out how do we plan for that. I think, especially now, spending more time with the kids too without having that student loan debt and being able to do more things and travel more, it feels like it’s definitely paying off in the end with making some of those sacrifices or making those adjustments.

Really, that mindset change, I was joking this morning, like you said Tim, it’s mindset changing. In 2021, we actually kept a list of things of, what are things we didn’t buy that we’re going to buy when the student loan is paid, and I was laughing because I’m like, “I still haven’t even bought these things yet.” We just found that maybe we don’t actually need them.

[0:17:44.7] TU: Yeah and some of those behaviors. That’s what I always encourage folks, whatever goal you’re working towards, some of those behaviors you implement in that season will stay with you for the long run. Certainly, there’s a time and place to loosen the reigns a little bit and make sure we’re living a rich life today as well as planning for the future, but we’ll talk about what that looks like for you guys.

But some of those behaviors can stay longer, which I think is really an incredible part of the journey. I want to touch on two things we’ve mentioned I think play a really important role to this journey, which is, number one, that you talk about the side hustle you had working full-time as a pharmacist, as a real estate agent that allowed you to accelerate some of the goals and momentum.

Then the second being the investing in real estate, which much of our community already knows the work that you there on the Real Estate Investing Podcast but talk to us first about the side hustle as a realtor. When did you become a realtor, why did you become a realtor and you know ultimately, how have you been able to balance this while you are also at the time working full-time?” You are raising a young family, tell us about the decision to pursue that work and the role that it played and the debt repayment journey.

[0:18:51.3] NH: Yes, I mentioned that mindset shift that occurred in 2016. I realized I needed something else that was going to be able to supplement my pharmacy career, something where I could put extra effort in and get extra reward from doing that, real estate became a natural fit. Again, it is mentioned a dozen times in Rich Dad Poor Dad and I started reading other things about ways to diversify income streams and, you name it, right?

Real estate was in that conversation. I talked to my father-in-law who has been in real estate for years and he’s like, “You should just get your license.” At the time that felt like, “Well, that’s a different career. I can’t do that” but as I looked into it, it was actually a really reasonable option to supplement that. So I went, like Kristen said, to classes in 2016, got licensed in early 2017 and I assumed that everyone was all of a sudden coming to me, right?

All my family and friends were going to flock to me and say, “Nate, buy and sell me a house” and it was, I think, eight months before I had a real client and actually closed the deal. I mean, it was a long time, and that’s because I wasn’t putting the right amount of effort into it and I wasn’t targeting what I needed to be doing, right? I wasn’t niching down and, again, that’s what led to the creation of real estate RPH and all the work that I do with pharmacists and the real estate community.

All those things progressed down the road to the point where I am at today where, again, now I get to work with a bunch of active clients here in Cleveland. I help people all over the country with our real estate concierge service and it is a really cool way to put my passion for real estate into the world of pharmacy that I started out in and, again, it’s also been a great way for us to supplement our income stream just because it is something where I could put more effort in and get more dollars out as a result from doing that.

[0:20:21.6] TU: Yeah. I want to put a plug in, just so you don’t have to as well, but I think that service has really been so valuable to the community. So, if folks are looking to buy a home, sell a home, looking to buy an investment property and they’re looking for an agent that would be a good fit for them. It is okay if you’re not in the Cleveland area where Nate is, he’s built a network of agents all across the country that have supported other pharmacist.

So, if you go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com, you click on home buying, you’ll see a section for find an agent and from there, you can get connected with Nate further.

Kristen, I want to ask you about the real estate investing side just because Nate talks about this on the podcast every week but I know, because I’ve seen it offline through some of the times I am talking with Nate, you guys are crunching numbers on the property and you’re on the spreadsheets punching numbers, “Is this a good deal, is this not a good deal?”

Tell us more about the vision that you guys have had for real estate investing for you as a family, why that’s been a good fit, and the approach that you’ve taken thus far in your real estate investing journey?

[0:21:17.5] KH: Yeah, I think we always had an interest in real estate investing. You know, my family has some experience with that, like Nate mentioned, my dad is a realtor, so we knew its something we eventually wanted to do. It was just figuring out ,how do we put it in as part of our plan? But when Nate said he was interested, I was all onboard, but I was also that type-A risk averse pharmacist as in, “How do we do this? I have no idea.”

I vividly remember a lot of my commutes, listening to Bigger Pockets, reading a lot of real estate books just to fill my brain with the information I felt that I needed to feel comfortable with real estate investing, and we always knew that we wanted to have those properties. I think one of the biggest things I had learned from Bigger Pockets was, one great thing about real estate investing is even if something happens, you still own a building.

You still have something physical there that you could sell and we just—we always knew we wanted it to be something to supplement with one of our investments.

[0:22:13.4] TU: Yeah, so right now you guys have property, correct me if I am wrong, you’ve got property in Northeast Ohio and then you’ve also got property outside of the area, correct?

[0:22:22.0] NH: Yes, so we’ve got properties here locally and then some up in Michigan as well.

[0:22:25.7] TU: Awesome, love that. And folks can tune in to the Real Estate Investing Podcast for more stories of other pharmacists real estate investors. So, we’ve talked about really three main buckets that were instrumental in paying off this $250,000 of debt and that was, I categorize it as hustle, cutting your expenses that more than $3,000 per month, growing the income through the side hustle, and then also looking at how you’re able to build a real estate investment portfolio. We’re there other strategies that helped you along this way of paying off this debt?

[0:22:55.8] NH: There are little things. I think one that comes to mind for me is that we refinanced that loan, I think four different times, and a lot of that was because we were getting low interest rates every single time, and the other is because we were able to get big bonus. So, if you have been on any of the YFP resources for loan pay down or for loan refinance, you get cash bonuses depending on your loan balance.

A couple of times we would go out and refinance it, wait a couple of months, refinance it again, and we’d get a check and a lower interest rate, it just made a ton of sense. So, that was a little thing that helped quite a lot along the way.

[0:23:24.2] KH: I think another thing that really helped us was working with Tim Baker and the planning team at YFP. They were very much instrumental in guiding us through and helping us make the decisions. You know, I grew up putting my money under a mattress making sure it was nice and crisp and counting it every week. When we started this journey, Nate wasn’t financially savvy until 2016, when he got more into it after reading Rich Dad Poor Dad.

So, I think working together in having a third party objectively look at everything and give us some guidance was really helpful as well.

[0:23:55.9] TU: You don’t have to make Tim’s ego any bigger. No, I’m just kidding. I can see he is listening to that. So the question that I am begging to know the answer to is, you guys were throwing a huge amount of money at this debt. Obviously, at some point, you got that debt paid off and, all of a sudden, you’re not having to make that big of a payment anymore. I often think about this in the context of my journey and I often chalk it up to where did that money go.

Well, more kids, kids got expensive, other things come along the way, but I also know you guys have been really intentional as a family about what are we trying to do in terms of experiences and how we want to be intentional with the resources and the money that you have each month. So, Kristen, talk to us about this journey after the $250,000 of debt, where no longer making this massive monthly payment. What’s happening? What are we doing?

[0:24:43.5] KH: Well, we went to Disney World. I feel like that’s the most appropriate thing, you know? Honestly, in some parts, it feels like it hasn’t changed at all. We still have a lot of that mindset with being frugal and still saving for our future, but also trying to live in the moment, and we have done a lot of life planning as well and things that we want to do. I think we’re working on travelling more.

Like I said, we went to Disney, hopefully some other trips coming up, just being able to spend more time with the kids I think. People with children understand that the first five years before they start school is just hectic and overwhelming. We were just trying to take in all these moments before they head to school officially.

[0:25:20.1] TU: I love that. Right, it goes quick and everyone says that, but it’s real, and I think the intentionality around these experiences and making sure there’s the budget there to support those experiences and to be able to enjoy those moments along the way. Nate, you recently shared publically your decision to go from full-time to part-time work in your pharmacist role. So we’re going to officially call you a pseudo pharmacist now.

[0:25:41.7] NH: That’s fair.

[0:25:42.9] TU: How much of a factor was getting to this point of having this $250,000 of debt paid off, how much of a factor was that and being able to approach that decision and ultimately, feel confident in that decision.

[0:25:55.4] NH: Yeah, it was huge. I mean, I can’t say that when we stared off that was the plan but as we get closer, we realized that it was a possibility, and I looked at the timing and I looked at where we were at and I said, “Look, this is like the last summer before our oldest goes off to kindergarten and then it is just going to get crazier and crazier as time goes on” So I took a step back and said, “Now that this debt is gone, we really can take a step back.”

Kristen has been so supportive and helpful in allowing me to do that, but it’s been really cool because now I can just focus on them for the summer and those extra 20 hours that I found every single week is just, I’m on the kid’s schedule. Like the other day, it was raining in the morning and so we went to the movies and we saw a kid’s movie and then we got out and I was like, “Hey, it’s sunny. Let’s go to the playground” and so we did that.

It was just really cool to be on their schedule rather than some work schedule or something else that I had to do or had to get done. There wasn’t a timeframe anymore and that’s been really cool and again, without that debt being gone, there is no way we could have done that.

[0:26:51.3] TU: Yeah, what I love is I think both of you are such a great example. Where yes, you’ve got a PharmD, yes, you’ve got residency training, yes, you could continue to climb certainly in various clinical roles and there’s the opportunities always there and will be there, but you also have some opportunity for flexibility in those roles and I think sometimes we don’t think creatively enough as pharmacist about how we’re going to use our time each week, and that can change season to season.

I work with other pharmacists who went through a season with young family and others where they pivoted to part-time roles or more flexible schedules and then that changed the game at a later point in time. So I think there’s opportunities to make sure that we are coordinating our work plan with our life plan and with the financial plan as well. Kristen, I’ll start with you and then Nate, if you have other thoughts as well.

I’m someone listening who, maybe I’m a student, and I am like, “Oh my gosh, thanks so much I feel depressed about the journey ahead” or maybe I am in the middle of the debt repayment journey and I just feel like, “When does this going to end?” or I feel like I am spinning my wheels. What advice would you have for pharmacists that are in that debt repayment journey as they’re trying to really navigate that path forward?

[0:27:58.8] KH: Yeah. Not to sound cheesy, but I think a really big player, at least for me, was the YFP planning team. We felt like we had a plan but we weren’t really sure if it was a good plan, and really it was after I had our second child and I was listening to a lot of podcast. I was walking everyday on maternity leave and I was listening to podcast every time I would go for a walk and I was like, “We really need to look at this.”

I feel like we need a more set plan as to what we’re doing, especially since you’re at such an integral point of your life where you want to be able to spend extra time with the kids, but you also may feel like you can’t financially do that, and so I think having that, like I said, that objective third party look at what you two are talking about as a couple can be really, really helpful, and also helped us look at a lot of our other financial plan with the investments.

Like, can we get into more real estate investing, are we contributing enough to our 401(k)? Are we doing things that seem like we should be doing? I think that is really, really been a big impact on us on being able to achieve this.

[0:28:55.0] TU: Nate, any other words of wisdom, advice you’d have to folks that are kind of in the thick of it, if you will?

[0:29:00.6] NH: Yeah, I think for me, again, just for me at least, what were just this mindset shift away from being stuck at, “Okay, I only have—this is my income” right? “If I make a $110,000 a year as a pharmacist, that’s all I’ve got and there is no other opportunities and I have to make it work with that money.” I challenge everybody out there, and there’s a thousand and one different ways to do this, but you should find something where the more effort you put in, the more you get out of it, and it doesn’t have to be money, right?

That can be just time, that can be time with your family, that can be things that you enjoy doing, whatever that is, find something that is going to supplement your life that the more effort you put into it, the more reward you get out of it ,and that is just a really great way to set yourself up for success.

[0:29:40.9] TU: I love that. To reiterate what we talked about a little bit ago, the dollars are one piece of that, but don’t underestimate the momentum that comes from that as well, and that momentum is so important as it relates to the financial plan. You’re related to the debt repayment but I always stick to the other parts of the plan as well. Again guys, congratulations on knocking out this huge chunk of debt.

Really incredible to hear the story and the why behind it and how you’re able to do it, excited for what lies ahead of you guys and thanks for taking time to come on the show.

[0:30:10.5] NH: Thanks Tim, we appreciate it.

[0:30:11.6] KH: Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:30:12.3] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information of the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analysis expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 331: How One Couple Paid Off $208k of Student Loans

Posted on October 26, 2023October 24, 2023 by Tim U

On this episode, Jackie Boyle, PharmD, MBA and Paul Boyle share their journey paying off $208k of student loans.

Episode Summary

Debt can be an overwhelming weight on one’s shoulders, but imagine paying off an astounding $208,000 of it! This week on the podcast, we are joined by the inspirational duo, Jackie and Paul Boyle. They recount their journey from being neck-deep in student loans to paying them off entirely. This episode delves into their personal and collective strategies, their highs and lows, the financial compromises made, and how they kept the momentum to reach the finish line. From Paul’s decision to be a stay-at-home dad to Jackie’s reflections on missed opportunities with the PSLF program, their experiences provide invaluable insights for anyone navigating their own debt repayment process. We also dive into the emotional and financial challenges they encountered, especially when transitioning to a single-income household. Yet, their story isn’t just about the hurdles; it’s brimming with actionable takeaways and advice for those on similar paths. As Paul and Jackie demonstrate, with determination, strategic financial planning, and mutual support, even the heftiest of student loans can be overcome. So whether you’re struggling with student loans, seeking motivation, or just curious about the Boyles’ debt-free journey, this episode is a must-listen. Join us and discover how you too can rewrite your financial story!

About Today’s Guest

Jackie Boyle is a pharmacy educator by day and coaches pharmacists and pharmacies in a part-time capacity. She received her Doctor of Pharmacy from Northeast Ohio Medical University in 2012, MBA from University of Findlay in 2016, and Master and Bachelor degrees from THE Ohio State University (O-H!) She is highly involved in professional organizations including ASHP and AACP, and also loves spending time with her husband and two daughters, Gianna and Giulia. In her free time, she loves spinning, yoga, and enjoying a warm cup of coffee.

Paul Boyle is a Client Service Associate out of the Cleveland, Ohio area where he has had a diverse career of over 20 years, mostly taking care of customers and clients in various fields of service ranging from manufacturing to professional baseball. He received a Bachelor’s degree in Sport Management from The University of Akron in 2020, while taking time away from the workforce to raise his children. Paul spends most of his free time with his wife, Jackie, and two daughters, Gianna and Giulia. An avid Cleveland sports fan, musician and aspiring podcaster. When not supporting his local teams he likes to enjoy the occasional motorcycle ride, which is another longtime passion.

Key Points From the Episode

Get to know Jackie and Paul, and their student loan debt repayment journey.
The shared decision for Paul to be a stay-at-home dad and finish his degree.
A reminder that you can make mistakes and still achieve your debt repayment goals.
The extensive student loan debt that Paul inherited when he married Jackie.
Having a baby and becoming a single-income household.
How the emotional weight of student loans shifted throughout their debt journey.
Why Paul always maintained confidence in their plan and abilities.
Jackie’s income-based debt repayment strategy during her residency.
Her biggest regret: not using the PSLF program.
The challenge of staying motivated during an aggressive repayment journey.
How Jackie and Paul maintained momentum.
The value of budgeting and breaking repayment down into smaller goals.
Why everyone’s debt repayment journey is different.
Finding the right balance between debt repayment and investing in the future.
How to assess your priorities and allocate your finances.
Using your side hustle to pay for additional expenses.
Refinancing your student loans and taking advantage of lower interest rates.
Advice for new graduates as interest on student loans returns after the pandemic freeze.
What’s next for Jackie and Paul now that they have their student loans behind them.

Episode Highlights

“We ended up paying off earlier than I anticipated due to some choices we’ve made. So, yes, it’s very exciting to be on this journey. That said, I know we definitely made mistakes as well.” — Jackie Boyle [0:05:27]

“I never thought inheriting this much debt comes with the territory of a relationship. So that was all brand new.” — Paul Boyle [0:07:57]

“I was so engulfed in residency life that, honestly, [repaying my debt] took a back burner. I should have been doing things way differently during that time.” — Jackie Boyle [0:09:30]

“If you look at that big number, you could be paralyzed by it. But if you look at those smaller numbers, it’s like, ‘okay, over the course of the next three months, I can achieve this goal, and I know how I’m going to achieve it.’” — Jackie Boyle [0:12:49]

“We never felt strapped or that we had to eat ramen for the next couple [of] years to achieve this. That made things better, and that’s motivating in its own [right]. You could see, ‘Hey, we’re doing great.’ We could keep this up as we’re going.” — Paul Boyle [0:15:52]

“Educate yourself. Find a mentor or a financial planner to work with. Get a budget in line. Those basic tools can be really helpful in giving you the motivation to realize that you can do this with a better understanding of your own personal situation and what’s possible.” — Jackie Boyle [0:26:26]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I welcome Jackie and Paul Boyle as they share their journey of paying off $208,000 of student loans. We discussed the motivations behind their debt-free journey, how they balanced debt repayment with other financial goals, including investing and buying a home, lessons they learned along the way, strategies they employed to get on the same page, and advice that they have for those that are navigating loan repayment.

Okay, let’s hear a brief message from YFP team member, Justin Woods, and then we’ll hit play on Jackie and Paul Boyle’s debt-free story.

[00:00:40] JW: Hey, Your Financial Pharmacist community. This is Justin Woods here, Director of Business Development at YFP. You may be one of the 13,000 pharmacists that have already signed up for YFP Money Matters, which is our weekly newsletter. But if you’re not, what are you waiting for? I want to invite you to subscribe. We send financial tips, recommendations, the latest podcast episode and money resources, all specifically for pharmacists. It all comes straight to your inbox every Friday morning. So visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/newsletter, or click the link in the show notes to subscribe today. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/newsletter. See you there.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:25] TU: Jackie and Paul, welcome to the show.

[00:01:27] JB: Hello.

[00:01:28] PB: Hey, Tim.

[00:01:29] TU: Well, this is a real treat for me. Many of your listeners may not know. Paul, you are a member of the YFP team, and so we’ve had the opportunity to work with one another here over the last several months. We’re incredibly grateful to have you as a part of the team.

Jackie, you and I have known each other. It’s got to be well over a decade, I think, at this point. I used to be on faculty at NEOMED way back when, and you started there as a student and then a resident. Then we were colleagues. You’re continuing to do great work there, and we’ll talk more about that here in a moment.

So this is a treat to be able to have both of you on as friends, as well as to share with our community your debt-free story. So congratulations to both of you and excited to dig into a little bit of what went behind that, how much debt you paid off, what were the motivations, what worked, what didn’t work, and what lies ahead for you guys now that you’ve got this big milestone achieved.

Paul, let’s start with you. Tell us a little bit more about your background, your career, and the work that you’re doing now.

[00:02:26] PB: Yes. So like you mentioned, I am part of the YFP team now as a client service associate. Love my job. Love the people I work with. It’s great to be a part of this community. But before that, my last paid job was with a company called Lincoln Electric, and I was a warranty service rep there in my last position. So still kind of helping customers out in that realm. But I chose to – well, we as a family made a decision when we had our first daughter that we wanted one of us to stay at home.

So me being the lesser income earner and with this topic, it’s student debt, we decided that my wife was going to continue to work and that I was going to be a stay-at-home dad. I used that time to go back to school, finish my degree in sports management and, yes, never looked back. Since then enjoyed the time with my kids. Being a stay-at-home dad was probably the best job that I’ve ever had so.

[00:03:23] TU: That’s awesome. Jackie, I just scratched the surface on my mention of your training at NEOMED and your residency and your faculty role. But tell us more about your pharmacy journey. What led you into the profession, including the work that you’re doing now?

[00:03:36] JB: Oh, thank you, Tim. This is such an exciting thing to be on your podcast, Tim. My relationship has gone on for so many years and so many different capacities. So I’m just so excited to be talking with you here today. My background is a bit of a mix of ambulatory care practice and education. So I started out my career in practice-based faculty roles and a few different settings in ambulatory care and then actually took a full-time position at the college at Northeast Ohio Medical University here in 2019. So I’ve been here for the past four years.

Around 2017, though, I started getting a little bit of an entrepreneurial itch. Of course, as Tim is one of my greatest mentors, I started talking with him about ideas for part-time work and actually got connected to an awesome entrepreneur, Alex Barker, who was starting a career coaching company at the time and have been career and business coaching pharmacists now for about six years, which plays into our story as well. It’s just been a ton of fun.

So, yes, a little bit of a few different things. I love being a jack of all trades and kind of exploring what’s out there in pharmacy. So, yes, this journey has been a long one, but I hope that we could share some of our mistakes, some of our wins, maybe inspire a few people along the way.

[00:04:59] TU: So, Jackie, let’s start with the juicy details around the student loans. How much did you end up paying off between the two of you when it was all said and done?

[00:05:09] JB: Yes. I think it was about $208,000. As the CFO of our family, I was keenly keeping an eye on our balances as they went down over time. It’s awesome to think back now how much we started with and where we ended up. We ended up paying off earlier than I anticipated due to some choices we’ve made. So, yes, it’s very exciting to be on this journey. That said, I know we definitely made mistakes as well, and I wish – for example, like PSLF. I probably could have taken advantage of that, but I didn’t even know that was a thing. So I’m here to say that you can make mistakes and still achieve the goal eventually as well.

[00:05:53] TU: Yes. That’s such a good reminder, Jackie. I think there’s so much pressure around this decision. We have the opportunity to talk with pharmacy students, new grads on a regular basis. We talk about the importance of really understanding these loan repayment options and getting that decision that’s best for your personal situation. I think that can feel weighty at times, right? Because it can have big implications, whether it’s a PSLF strategy or another strategy.

But, also, what you shared, I think, is such an important reminder is that mistakes are inevitable part of the financial plan. It’s going to happen. They happen on the regular and giving ourselves some grace and learning from those mistakes. We’re not always going to get it according to the textbook, and that’s okay, right? That’s part of this journey is to learn as well.

Paul, I want to start with you but really a question for both of you. As you think about your journey and the student loans, did your feelings around the student loans change over time? Some people we talk with, when I say give me the 0 to 10 student loan pain scale, where zero is the – no. They are what they are. They’re going to take care of themselves. Ten is the house is on fire, right? No right or wrong answer, but everyone is different on that journey. I’m just curious. Like for you, did that change at all along your journey, right? As you guys grew in terms of a family and your careers, tell us more about the emotions and feelings around the student loan debt.

[00:07:21] PB: Yes, absolutely. It’s intimidating for me at the beginning because when Jackie and I met, she had just graduated. So she went into residency. As everybody knows out there, residency pay is not quite the same as full pharmacist pay. But I was working full-time at the time, too. But just realizing like the massive amount of that compared to mine, I think what Jackie – I don’t know how much mine was at the time. I only had a couple thousand left to pay off on mine, and we paid it off first.

But kind of we got engaged, and I was like okay. I never thought like inheriting this much debt like comes with the territory of a relationship. So that was all kind of brand new.

[00:08:04] JB: I came with a lot of baggage.

[00:08:06] PB: Yes. It’s not bad baggage, but it’s just something that you never thought you had to plan for, right? So before even like our wedding and taking on a mortgage and stuff like that, here’s this amount of debt that amounts to a house. I think I took it pretty seriously, but I don’t think I felt like it was a pain point quite yet because, again, we were both working full-time. We figured, okay, we could come up with a plan to handle this.

But as it progressed and as I left work and we became a single-income household, it kind of went up there to like a seven or an eight maybe, just because of that weight like of all that debt, and like will we get there, and then we started a family and added expenses and stuff. So I wouldn’t say I lost sleep over it because I had kind of confidence in especially Jackie as our CFO and her earning potential that we could kind of navigate it.

[00:09:03] JB: Yes. I think, for me, I was in denial for the first two years. So during residency, I did income-based repayment, which meant that my monthly payments were zero. But the interest was accumulating rapidly, as you all know. So those first two years, I should have been at a seven or eight. But I was at like a zero to one because I’m like, “Oh, this is not – it’s not a problem right now. I don’t need to be paying attention to it.” I was so engulfed in residency life that, honestly, it took a back burner. I should have been doing things way differently during that time.

Like Paul said, during like the year of our engagement and then leading up to marriage and our first child, that’s when it became more of like a house on fire seven or eight-plus for me. I was so determined to start attacking this thing. Once I realized that I should have been doing things way differently, and I had already made a few big mistakes with not going to the PSLF program. So, yes, definitely changed for me over time and perhaps that denial factor didn’t help us for the first two years.

[00:10:07] PB: It was kind of out of sight, out of mind type of thing. We had, like I said, paid off mine, and we’re like, “Oh, hey. That’s a great feeling.” So we kind of did in our minds know, hey, with us, with the DINK lifestyle, right? Like we can kind of tackle some of these other debts that we had, and I knew Jackie wasn’t a fan of debt to begin with. So we had a couple small wins there. But still, like I wasn’t thinking about the big one quite yet.

[00:10:37] TU: Jackie, remind me. Year of residency completed was what?

[00:10:42] JB: So two years and it was done in 2014.

[00:10:45] TU: 2014. Okay. So when we think about that journey, 2014, obviously, you mentioned the income-based repayment. Paul, you mentioned your loan. But 2014 to 2023, that’s a period of time where you’re waiting through this. You’ve got a young family. Other expenses are creeping up. Many of our listeners can relate to this feeling. Momentum can be very hard to sustain for a long period of time, right? We had a pharmacist on recently that paid off a little over $345,000 of debt in five years. Very, very aggressive repayment journey. I asked her the same question I’m going to ask you, which is when you think about paying off over $200,000 of debt over a sustained period of time, it’s hard to keep the motivation and the momentum going.

For you, Jackie, let’s start with you. For the two of you, for your family, like how were you able to keep that momentum and motivation going? What was the why that was fueling you guys as you were trying to really make sure you persisted through this over that period of time?

[00:11:47] JB: Well, before starting to dive into financial topics, our one session about this topic, student loans, was the last day of our P4 year. We had an hour-and-a-half session about what our debt was, our repayment options. Again, it was just so overwhelming at that time that it got shoved back away. Once we got oriented towards like what our life goals were and that we wanted to not only gain financial freedom but set up our kids for success, be able to do things like giving, pay off things as quickly as possible, then I think breaking it down into smaller goals was the only way that it felt achievable.

I actually started writing down small goals every morning in the increments of like $5,000 to say, okay, if I can get the loan balance under this, like I’ve achieved another goal. As achievement-oriented person, like that felt really good to do. It might sound silly, but it also made the overall goal feel manageable because if you look at that big number, you could be paralyzed by it. But if you look at those smaller numbers, it’s like, okay, over the course of the next three months, I can achieve this goal, and I know how I’m going to achieve it.

I think the other helpful thing we started doing once we got married was to start budgeting and just to even have a handle around what are our finances, what our expenses, how much money do we have left over at the end of the month that’s not left with a purpose, and starting to really allocate like, okay, where are all of our dollars going. Where does this extra money contribute to the financial plan or not?

Thankfully, with all the resources that your team has developed, Tim, and all the education you were providing, we were able to start learning about different options, different ideas, how we can start tackling it.

[00:13:37] TU: A couple things I heard there which are really good. You mentioned, obviously, the budget being an important part for the two of you. I suggest if you are like most couples, right? Budgeting is a process that takes time to make sure that you’re in alignment with the bigger vision and the goals. But such an important part of, hey, this is the shared vision that we have for our financial plan. I think that was really key.

The other thing you mentioned which I thought is really important is breaking it down into smaller goals, right? So $208,000, that’s big. It’s scary. It’s overwhelming. We talk about the same thing when it comes to saving for retirement 20, 30, 40 years in the future. If you punch numbers in the calculator that show you’re going to have to save two, three, four, five million dollars, whoa, like what do I need to do? What does that actually mean today, right?

So that $5,000 milestone, these goals that are along the way can really help with making it not only realistic but also providing some of the momentum along the way of, hey, we accomplish that. Let’s take a moment to pause, stop, celebrate. Maybe there’s even something that’s planned in there. Maybe there’s not. But just to realize that, yes, this is going to take some time. But we are making progress towards this journey.

Paul, what about for you? Anything else here to add as it relates to the motivation and the momentum?

[00:14:51] PB: Yes. Everything that Jackie said was great. The small wins. I was not the one who was looking at the number quite a lot because she is the bill payer for us. So I would check in every once in a while and be like, “Where are we at,” and kind of provide emotional support throughout that part of the journey because I never wanted her to feel like – and, again, as the person who kind of inherited this debt with her, like, well, it’s not her fault or anything like that. That I want to feel like it was hers. It was ours together. Yes. But seeing those numbers kind of go down.

It was nice throughout the whole process, at least for me, to realize, okay, we have a budget. It’s not a very serious budget. We’re not always letting that hang over our heads like, “Oh, we’re out somewhere doing this. Is this in the budget or not?” We never really had that pop up for us. So throughout this whole time, reaching many milestones, while also kind of living the life that we wanted to at that time, we never felt strapped or that we had to eat ramen for the next couple years to achieve this. That made things better, and that’s motivating in its own. Well, you could see, hey, we’re doing great. We could kind of keep this up as we’re going, right?

[00:16:07] TU: Yes. I’m really glad you mention that, Paul, because I think that’s a good segue into everyone’s journey is different, right? So there’s a spectrum of how you can tackle these loans. You could be very aggressive. It could even be more aggressive, right? Someone could pay off $208,000 of debt in three, four, five years. Maybe in that case they say, “Hey, debt is the only thing I’m focused on. I’m not buying a home. I’m not investing. I’m not saving. I’m not doing other things.” We could debate like what are the pros, what are the cons of that approach.

There’s the other end of the spectrum. You can take federal loans out 25 years, right? It could be a longer period of time. For some people, that is the pathway they choose, whether it’s a forgiveness pathway or not, so that their monthly payment is as low as possible, and they’re able to allocate dollars towards other parts of the financial plan. It sounds like for the two of you, it was somewhat in the middle, right? It was a fairly short timeline. That’s a large chunk of money in a 9, 10-year period.

But, Paul, to your point, it sounds like, hey, there was also still the life that you were living, and there was some sacrifice, obviously. Otherwise, you wouldn’t have gotten to this point in time. But you were able to do some other things that you wanted to do, whether that be buy a home, whether that be investing, saving for the future, going on vacation, investing in experiences as a family. If I heard you right, Paul, it really felt like you were able to do both of those at once. Is that fair?

[00:17:30] PB: Yes, absolutely. I think it never reached the point at any moment for me like where we would have to make any kind of major lifestyle change or change up what we were doing throughout the whole process.

[00:17:42] TU: Jackie, and this is one of the most common questions I get from new grads is should I pay off the debt or should I invest in the future. Then you add on top of that a home purchase is often a common thing, very challenging right now with what’s happening with home prices and interest rates. I think there’s this or mentality. Should I do this? Or should I do that? Or should I do this? Typically, as is the case in your journey, it’s more of an and often. So tell us about your feelings surrounding the aggressiveness or the length of time for the debt repayment.

[00:18:15] JB: Yes. I think to your point, Tim, like the and and trying to make some financial compromises could help you set up your situation to be what you want it to be. So for example, like we got approved for a home loan of like $445,000 when we were looking at houses. Paul and I were like, “Wow, that’s a lot of money.” Then looking at homes at that time in 2014, the market was a bit different for houses. The houses that were at that value, we’re like, “We don’t need a home that’s $445,000. We can look for homes maybe around half that level and still get a really nice place to live and grow our family and everything.”

So we ended up finding our house. Our purchase price was 225. So that alone was huge savings, compromising with we wanted discretionary funds to be able to go out and do things. Just we love like going out to eat, and hanging out with friends and family, and spending a little bit of money on things for vacation. That’s really important for us to have experiences with our family as well. So I think it’s talking with your partner. Or if you don’t have a partner, like thinking for yourself and your priorities in your life and where you want to allocate your finances.

I think, for me, because I was so interested in like still getting this paid off quickly on a single income for most of the time, honestly, was to think of other outside-of-the-box ways to be able to make those extra payments happen. So picking up that side hustle of coaching, which, honestly, doesn’t feel like a job to me. It’s really fun. But all of the extra income we earn from that went towards typically our student loans.

There are things we could have done differently with that as well with contract work and taxes and tax planning. There’s still so much that I have to learn that, thankfully, again, the YFP team is going to be helping us with. But thinking of how can you increase that income dollar for yourself and your family to work more aggressively if you want to or if you’re motivated by that as well.

[00:20:32] TU: Yes I’m. glad you mentioned the extra income, right? We see that often where people are going through a debt repayment journey, and it will be a side hustle, extra shifts, extra income maybe for a long period of time, maybe for a short period of time. But that can really be a boost to, wow, we feel like we’re making some more progress, and maybe this is now a 9 or 8 or 7-year instead of a 10, 11, 12-year. Sometimes, the extra 100 or 200 bucks or 300 bucks, whatever the dollar amount is, may not seem significant. But we tend to forget the momentum that that can provide behaviorally, as well as a part of the plan.

I just love what you guys shared about for you, for the two of you, for your family, you decided on that this was best, right? This approach of, hey, we’re going to pay off the debt. It’s pretty big payments. But we’re also going to find this balance of living our life. There’s no right or wrong answer here, and I think it’s so easy to fall into the trap of, hey, what’s the right way to do this.

There’s a mathematical quote right answer, but we don’t live our lives according to just mathematically correct answers, right? So we’ve got to run the math, true. But we also have to think about what does it mean to live a rich life, and how do we find the balance between these two things? That’s true not only for debt repayment, but that’s true for all parts of the financial plan.

[00:21:46] PB: If I could add to that, for me, kind of the extra money, the side hustle type of thing, we’ve always kind of thought of our income kind of separating those things. So before I left work, in my job, we had a bonus structure that we had a pretty hefty bonus that came at the end of the year. So what I found a lot of people running into trouble is that they relied on that bonus to pay for their regular everyday every year budget. For me, you take that mentality. Okay, here’s my salary. That’s my salary for the year. Let’s pretend that the bonus doesn’t exist, right?

The same thing with side hustle money, then when that becomes extra like, okay, that’s all of our goal money, right? It’s stuff to – like we paid for our wedding from my bonus. So any of those extra things that we know they’re going to cost a little bit extra more, that’s where kind of that side hustle, the extra income goes straight to that stuff.

[00:22:41] JB: One other thing I wanted to mention here was that we refinanced our loan twice throughout the journey. So that savings on interest rate declined, which I know that interest rates are not great right now. But when we refinanced, well, I basically just kept checking every two years or so to see, okay, are there better interest rates available. Can we decrease that if possible? Because over time, that interest just adds up. Oh, there’s nothing that could make you more fired up than extra interest on your student loan. That was something that was also a great change to the process.

[00:23:19] PB: Yes. Her last refinance. Sorry, Tim. Her last refinance was a big motivator, at least for me, because when she said, “Hey, look how much we knocked off,” and we looked at like the saving that we got through there, and I’m like, “Holy cow.” It was a significant amount. We’ve always kind of –

[00:23:35] JB: I think it was $33,000.

[00:23:37] PB: Yes. It was crazy. So that was a big, big win, again, extra motivation to say, “Hey, we’re on the way. We’re going to do this.” Yes. Because I’m a big fan of paying off higher interest stuff first and kind of – she hates debt no matter what, so I always try to have that conversation like, “Well, if it’s a low, like we got 0.9 on our car right now. It’s like, hey, being ultra-aggressive may not be the best way, but we like to kick it out. But, yes, I mean, seeing lower interest rates is huge.

[00:24:08] TU: Yes. Hopefully, we see those interest rates come back down. Right now, it’s – especially for those that only have federal loans, that’s probably the best place to be for most people, just because of some of the benefits that come with federal loans. But I’m guessing your first refinance was way before the pandemic. Is that correct?

[00:24:24] JB: Oh, yes. Yes.

[00:24:25] TU: Okay. So you already kind of had pulled yourself out of that where you weren’t negatively impacted in any significant way through the freeze because that decision was already made. Then at that point, it was really about, hey, how can we get the best interest rate that we can. It sounds like that led to some significant savings.

At the time of this recording, we’re at the time period where student loan interest is turning back on. Payments are going to start back up after three and a half years, right? Dating back to March of 2020. I do really feel for the graduates [inaudible 00:24:59] classes that really haven’t yet had to make student loan payments, and this is going to be a somewhat of an abrupt transition. I’m hearing a lot of things like, “Tim, I’m overwhelmed. I’m confused. I’m frustrated. I’m anxious.” Not just about the student loans but also because of things we’ve already talked about. “I want to buy a home. I’ve got other goals I want to achieve. The six-figure income just isn’t really going to go as far as I thought it had.”

I’m just curious to hear from both of you. Jackie, let’s start with you. As you look back on your own journey and things that you’ve either said, “Hey, we did this really well, or maybe these are some things that we’ve done differently,” what advice would you have for these new graduates coming out?

[00:25:40] JB: Oh, so many things. I wish I would have done differently. Just get your budget in line first. I think knowing where you are spending and where you can cut back on expenses and even getting a wrap around that is really helpful and can maybe dismantle some of the doubts that you have about the fact that you can do this, I think. No, I didn’t get – I have no in incentive to say this. But like working with a financial planner like the team at YFP and like the resources that you all have, just even on your website, to check out.

I remember looking at the student loan calculator and the change in interest rate and just playing around with the tools that are on there on your website. Just educate yourself. Find a mentor or a financial planner to work with. Get a budget in line. Those basic tools can be really helpful in giving you the motivation to realize that you can do this with a better understanding of your own personal situation and what’s possible.

[00:26:43] TU: Paul, how about for you?

[00:26:45] PB: Yes. I would add, for anybody who graduated kind of during the pause, you haven’t had to experience like any of your payments kicking in yet. Having a – just budgeted in there, whether you’re paying it or not, right? Kind of figure out what method is best for you. Obviously, tons of research and I have an inside look at this stuff now as far as all the repayment plans. I mean, we’re kind of on fire with it right now. There are so many different ways.

I love seeing how we can save people money because, again, we talk about our experience with, hey, we probably could have done student loan forgiveness. Find every option that’s available to you. Then don’t let it cripple you. Like I said, we lived a comfortable life on a single income; starting new family, buying a new house, getting married, getting married through residency. Just the busyness through that part of your life, there’s ways to do it. Yes. I just – stay motivated. Don’t be intimidated by that big number is kind of the best advice that I could give.

[00:27:48] TU: Yes. I think it goes back to full circle. When you were talking earlier about the budget and breaking it down to smaller goals, making this number mean something today is such an important part and until you work the budget to know what capacity is or isn’t there and how this big rock is going to influence everything else you’re doing. We tend to live in that mental state of frustration. I’m confused. I’m overwhelmed.

I often say, hey, when we put it all on paper, and, Paul, you’ve seen some of the behind the scenes of this, and you look at all the analyses, and we nerd out in the spreadsheet, we may not like the numbers. Nor will they change from this month to the next month. But the peace of mind that comes from knowing we’ve looked at these numbers, knowing what our options are, and knowing what the monthly payment will be. All right. Now, we can work on a plan, right? That is so important to understand. Otherwise, it’s a hope. It’s a wish. It’s a dream. It’s a guess, and that leads to frustration, right? We’re talking here about student loans, but that’s true with all parts of the financial plan.

Let me ask you guys this. This is a huge milestone, a huge milestone. But it is one of many milestones that you’re going to accomplish on your financial journey. I think that for the pharmacists that are listening that are earlier in their career that are feeling some of the stress and the weight of their own student loans, they’re like, “Man, I just can’t wait until I get to that finish line, right?” That finish line where Jackie and Paul are. It’s a great accomplishment, but it’s not the finish line. You guys are just getting warmed up.

So my question here is what’s next for you. Now that we’ve got the student loans behind us, when you fast forward and say, “Hey, five years from now, September 2028, like what does success look like for the Boyle family? Now that we’ve moved this big rock out of the way, we can start looking towards other parts of the plan.” Paul, let’s start with you.

[00:29:34] PB: Yes. I’d say getting our retirement on track, that’s kind of top of mind. We still have our mortgage as far as debt, and we still have one car payment. But we’re going to knock out our car here pretty soon, and that’s going to be another win that gives us like, “Hey, we only have a mortgage.” That we don’t necessarily – you don’t need to pay that off as quick as you would think so. Just with that freedom, it’s like, “Holy cow, what are we going to do with this extra income?” I’m working again. That’s extra income.

So, yes, I think saving for retirement, making sure that that is lined up and then maybe some home projects. I don’t know. Maybe I get something recreational or fun for me as a short-term goal if Jackie lets me. But we really don’t splurge on a lot of things and we haven’t for the past 10 years. So maybe it’s discussing do we have any kind of bigger fun things that we want to do within the next five years, and then look at the time beyond that, and make sure that us and our children kind of are set up for a comfortable life, our vision of what a comfortable life is.

[00:30:42] JB: Oh, yes. I think to add, figuring out – I have so many questions about like investing in 529s or educational funds. We don’t really know what to do with that piece yet. We know we want to set up our kids for success for the future and whatever that looks like for them. I’ve always had dreams of like having a vacation home and somewhere we can go or rent out or like collaborate with friends or family on to have a place to make memories.

Then I think the last piece is like giving back and determining where we can contribute to our community and just pay it forward in that direction as well. So, yes, we’re really excited. We just started working with the planning team at YFP. Yes. It’s been so enlightening so far. We’ve only had one meeting and I’ve just – I’m like in awe of how much we’ve learned in one short hour. So I’m sure it’s just the beginning of an awesome journey and lots of great things on the horizon.

[00:31:41] TU: Well, this has been fantastic. Again, congratulations to the two of you. I am super excited to follow your journey and see where things are going. As I mentioned, I think you’re just getting warmed up. This is a huge, huge accomplishment, one that is certainly worth celebrating but lots of exciting times to come ahead. So, Jackie, Paul, thank you so much for taking time to join the podcast. I appreciate it.

[00:32:01] JB: Thank you.

[00:32:02] PB: Thank you so much, Tim.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[00:32:04] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you, again, for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 330: How One Physician Had $550k+ of Loans Forgiven via PSLF

Posted on October 19, 2023October 14, 2023 by Tim U

On this episode, sponsored by FirstHorizon, Brenna Roth, MD, MPH, shares her journey of having over $550k of student loans forgiven tax-free via Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF).

Episode Summary

Are student loan forgiveness programs a beacon of hope for graduates drowning in debt? Joining us this week is Brenna Roth, MD, MPH; a physician who achieved an incredible financial milestone – over $550,000 of student loans wiped clean through the Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) program. In our conversation, Brenna discusses her background in medicine, the accumulation of her student loan debt, her initial feelings about the debt, and her journey to tax-free forgiveness. She also shares advice for individuals facing high student loan debt and considering PSLF as an option. We also unpack the challenges of dealing with loan servicing companies, the impact of the COVID-19 payment freeze, and the benefits of lower monthly payments through income-driven repayment plans for those pursuing PSLF. If you’re curious about the PSLF program or facing significant student loan debt, Brenna’s inspiring story sheds light on the potential benefits of pursuing loan forgiveness and highlights the changing landscape of student loan repayment.

About Today’s Guest

Brenna Roth, MD, MPH is an infectious disease doctor and public health specialist who works in academic global health and research. She lived and worked in Tanzania for 3 years and has continued to work on international programs and research projects across sub-Saharan Africa since. She has successfully navigated the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program across multiple loan servicers, jobs, and continents.

Key Points From the Episode

Background about Brenna and her medical career journey.
Discover how Brenna accumulated a large amount of debt.
She shares her approach to tackling the student loan debt mountain.
Her hesitancy toward PSLF and what ultimately changed her mind.
Common pitfalls and mistakes people make regarding repayments.
Challenges with loan servicing companies and documentation.
Recent changes that have improved the PSLF program.
The pros and cons of the PSLF repayment plan.
Ways COVID-19 impacted student loan payments and the freeze on payments.
Brenna’s experience making minimal payments during her time abroad.
Benefits of lowering adjusted gross income through retirement contributions.
How PSLF allowed Brenna to shift her focus towards long-term financial goals.
Advice for recent pharmacy and medical school graduates considering PSLF.

Episode Highlights

“Those high-interest rates building up over the years really impacted the amount [debt].” — Brenna Roth [0:04:53]

“My hesitancy was not knowing for sure, if after all of those years, [my debt] would actually be forgiven.” — Brenna Roth [0:10:51]

“It makes sense to, if you’re going to do PSLF, to pay during residency, fellowship, those kinds of years when you’re not making very much money.” — Brenna Roth [0:20:34]

“I think I would say, definitely give PSLF some serious consideration. I won’t say it’s the right thing for everybody. Obviously, it can depend on how much debt you have and what kind of job you are going into.” — Brenna Roth [0:25:04]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, for each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, I welcome Brenna Roth, a physician onto the show, to talk about her public service loan forgiveness (PSLF) journey, where she recently had more than $550,000 of loans forgiven, tax free.

Yes, you heard that right. More than $550,000 of student loans forgiven, tax-free. We talked about how she accumulated that large debt load, her feelings toward the debt, what went as planned, and didn’t go as planned along the way, and advice that she has for those that are facing high student loan debt.

Let’s hear from today’s sponsor, First Horizon, and then we’ll jump into my interview with Brenna Roth.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[0:00:45] TU: Does saving 20% for a down payment on a home feels like an uphill battle? It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high student loan debt, meaning that saving 20% for a down payment on a home may take years. We’ve been on a hunt for a solution for pharmacists that are ready to purchase a home loan with a lower down payment and are happy to have found that option with First Horizon.

First Horizon offers a professional home loan option, aka doctor or pharmacist home loan that requires a 3% down payment for a single-family home or townhome, for first-time homebuyers, has no PMI and offers a 30-year fixed rate mortgage on home loans up to $726,200. The pharmacist home loan is available in all states except Alaska and Hawaii and can be used to purchase condos as well. However, rates may be higher and a condo review has to be completed.

To check out the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, and to start the pre-approval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:58] TU: Brenna, welcome to the show.

[0:02:00] BR: Hi, thank you.

[0:02:02] TU: Well, it’s been a while since we’ve shared some PSLF stories on the podcast. In fact, over a year and a half ago on episode 248, we featured three pharmacists that collectively had more than $700,000 in student loans forgiven. We’ll link to that episode in the show notes. But all that to say, it’s been a while, and I’m certainly excited for this conversation, which came to be after YFP Planning, Financial Planner, Kim Bolton, shared the good news with our team, about your MOHELA account officially showing a $0 balance with over $550,000 that was forgiven, tax-free. And as soon as I heard that, I thought, we have to share this story with our community.

Brenna, as I mentioned to you before we hit record, there still is a lot of skepticism, a lot of questions, a lot of unknowns, surrounding public service, loan forgiveness. I think the more stories that we can share, the more information that we can get out the better. So, before we dig into your specific journey, tell us a little bit about your background, including your journey into medicine, where you went to school, and the work that you’ve been doing since?

[0:03:07] BR: Yes. So, I’m a trained infectious disease doctor. I did my undergraduate work at Tulane University. I also got a Master’s of Public Health there. Then, I worked for a couple of years in public health work research, and then I went on to medical school at Ross University. I did my residency at York Hospital in Pennsylvania, and I did my infectious disease fellowship at the University of Maryland, and I’ve been working since then.

[0:03:40] TU: A lot of years of training. Certainly, our audience can appreciate that. You know, $550,000 of debt that’s forgiven, tax-free, that’s a big number, and I think even quite shocking to our community who’s used to high debt loads, but not that high, right? Maybe $150,000, $200,000 or $250,000. But over $550,000, again, that is a large amount. I assume, and one of my questions about your brand as we get started is how did that debt load come to be as big as it was? Is that a function of medical school, as well as the master’s degree? Tell us a little bit more about the accumulation phase of that amount of debt.

[0:04:19] BR: Yes. It’s from the loans that I took out for my Master’s of Public Health as well as medical school. I was paying off the Master’s of Public Health, initially, when I left school. But then when I started in medical school, that repayment was paused. But during that time, still, the loans were collecting interest. So, it was really that accumulation over all those years of the loans plus — and I’m sure people are familiar with, they have rather high-interest rates, and I was no exception. So yes, just those high-interest rates building up over the years really impacted the amount.

[0:04:58] TU: Yes. The accumulation of interest, on a couple $100,000 or more of debt adds up pretty quickly, especially over periods of time with training involved. I think that while most people know that, we have, somewhat Brenna forgotten that, just because of the last three years, we’ve been on this freeze. So, I think for those of us that graduated, many of my loans are at a fixed 6.8% interest on the federal side, and you quickly realize, like, whoa, and you’ve got a couple $100,000 of debt. If you’re not making payments that are covering that interest, that loan balance grows pretty quickly, and all of a sudden, 200 becomes 250, becomes 300.

Now, if we’re pursuing public service loan forgiveness, and we get to the finish line of tax-free forgiveness, that’s not a bad thing. The goal is that we pay as minimum out of pocket as we can, to have as much as we possibly can, forgiven, and tax-free. But obviously, for those that go through the journey of paying those out of pocket, not through our forgiveness plan, certainly that can be a concern.

Brenna, I’m curious about your feelings surrounding the debt. No right or wrong answer. But I often talk with pharmacists. I joke it’s the student loan debt pain scale, 0 to 10. I talked with some pharmacists that may have a couple $100,000 of debt, and they describe it as a 10. The house is on fire, it’s causing anxiety, they’re frustrated, they’re worried. Even something like a PSLF strategy, they want these gone tomorrow. Even though the math shows it’s going to be favorable, it’s causing that much stress.

Other end of the spectrum, I’ll talk with pharmacists to say, I’m closer to a one or two or three. I recognize it’s a big deal, but they kind of are what they are. If it’s a longer payoff or forgiveness strategy, they may be more comfortable with that, to be able to maximize whatever they can dollars-wise. So, for you and your journey, what were your feelings surrounding the debt load, and did that change at all, as you were going through this PSLF journey?

[0:06:48] BR: It definitely changed over time. I mean, I would say it was at a tenant point. But honestly, I got to a point where, at one point, before I sorted into PSLF, I really just thought I will just have these debts forever, and it’s just going to be a part of my life and better to just accept it, and know that it’s just going to be there. So, I would say it went from a 10 to maybe more like 5 or 6, because I won’t say that I wasn’t at all concerned. But it kind of diminished. But with PSLF, I think it – well, initially, I won’t say it decreased, because I was a little skeptical about whether it was the best choice and I also, over time, I switched the companies that were handling my loans. That never proved to be a really great transition.

So, that was always stressful, because I was always worried that documentation or information would be lost, and the efforts I’d been putting in would not show up at the end, like something would go wrong. So, there were moments where stress kind of went up about all of it. But I would say overall, maybe it was only the last probably few years that I kind of – it dropped below a five for me when I started to have more confidence that things were really moving and things were really going to actually be forgiven.

[0:08:29] TU: Yes. I’m glad you brought that up with the loan servicing companies, right? That’s something we hear often, which is, those can be headaches to navigate. I mean, even right now with the new safe plan that’s coming out, people’s payments are being calculated incorrectly. For good reasons, people are freaking out, wanting to get the right information. Might have to recertify income. Should I recertify an income right now? I mean, there’s just so many nuances and wrinkles. I think as you go through some of the pain of those, and you get over those speed bumps, you tend to get a little bit more comfortable knowing how to navigate it.

But unfortunately, the difficulties with the loan servicing companies, that hasn’t gotten a whole lot better. I think people have gotten more comfortable with PSLF, because of hearing stories like yours, or we’re getting more education and information to make sure that they’re crossing the T’s and dotting the I’s correctly. But we would be lying if we said it’s going to be a clean journey for everyone, right? Just 10 years, 120 payments, you wake up, it’s tax-free. That’s the goal. But it doesn’t mean there’s not going to be some bumps along the way as well.

[0:09:34] BR: Definitely.

[0:09:35] TU: You mentioned reluctancy. I want to talk more about that. Is that something we hear a lot? I often will present on student loans, and when I show the calculations, I think, people nerd out and they get really excited about, “Oh, I can optimize this, and maybe it allows me to achieve other financial goals because I’m not having to put as much towards my student loans.” But there still is very much a sense and feeling of, what if? What if the rules change? What if this isn’t everything that I think it’s going to be? So, I want you to talk a little bit more about your reluctance, what were some of those questions, and then what ultimately changed, that allowed you to say, “Okay, yes, this is the path that I’m going to pursue.”

[0:10:17] BR: So, it should be noted that I was first presented really seriously, shortly after signing up with them with Tim, with YFP. Because this was, my loans were probably my major financial concern at the time. This was 2016, 2017, and I’d heard about the program. But I hadn’t really heard of anybody successfully navigating it, for sure. So, I think it was just not really knowing – my hesitancy was not knowing for sure, if after all of those years, things would actually be forgiven. Of course, as you mentioned, the strategy really is to lower your payments as much as possible and to get through those 10 years, meeting the requirements. But taking as little financial hit as possible.

Which the alternative to that would be, okay, let’s focus on making paying off as much as we can each month, and getting this paid down as quickly as possible. So, you’re accumulating as little interest. Those are like the two options that were presented to me. While it was clear that PSLF made the most sense, on paper, my reluctance came from not being totally sure that at the end of that 10 years, and that would be 10 years wasted in accumulating interest. All of these things, and that was really where my hesitancy came from. Again, this was a number of years ago, when there wasn’t as much evidence that the program was really going to definitively work. I even – I didn’t know if – I even had the concern of what if they just up and decide to cancel it for some reason?

So, it was really that. And you did hear horror stories of people thinking that they were doing everything right for years, and then getting nine years in, and being told, “Oh, no, you were in the wrong repayment plan”, or whatever it may be. During one of my switches from – actually, no. I was checking in with my loan servicer, and just to see is everything on track, is everything look okay. I felt pretty comfortable because you guys were helping me. So, I felt like I’s were dotted, T’s were crossed, but I was still checking in, and they actually told me, “Oh, we don’t go back and check that stuff until it’s like the last year of repayment.” And suddenly, I realized, “Oh, that’s why people get to the end, and they don’t know, because nobody’s really reaching out and communicating with them that this isn’t correct, or this should be.” So, people were getting really far along before getting any feedback that anything was not correct.

[0:13:12] TU: Yes. And when you mentioned the skepticism for good reason, that was around 2017. Is that correct?

[0:13:17] BR: Yes, 2016 or ’17, somewhat in there.

[0:13:21] TU: Yes. Which totally makes sense, right? This program was legislatively enacted in 2007,10-year timeline to forgiveness. That first group to be forgiven would have been in 2017, 2018. This is where a lot of the initial negative press came out. To be fair, the Department of Ed could have done a lot better job in terms of, communicating this and preventing some of these problems that people were identifying it to your point, at the end, when they’re getting near the finish line. Even in the six, or seven years since then, the information has gotten a lot better, the education has gotten a lot better. I think the loan servicers are more comfortable. Still not necessarily easy to always work with, more comfortable. The path, even with employers, now there’s a, through the studentaid.gov profile, you can punch in the EIN of your employer and see if there are qualifying employers. Even those questions in the past were like, “Am I 100% sure that I’m working for a qualified employer?”

For a good reason, you had skepticism, and when you’re talking about the horror stories, I’ve mentioned to you before we hit record that there was an article published by NPR. I think it was 2018, 2019 that the headline was “99% of PSLF applicants are denied.” Somewhat of a misleading story. We haven’t actually looked into the details in terms of the number of people who didn’t fully complete their application and the paperwork. But there were fair issues, and those issues being, “Oh, I didn’t realize that I had to maybe first consolidate my loan into a direct loan, to be able to then unlock a qualifying repayment plan so that then it counted as a qualifying payment.” It’s even crazy when I present on this topic, Brenna, like, I even catch myself like, well, if you do this, and then you do this, and then you do this, then it counts as a green checkmark, right? Then we’re good.

It’s kind of crazy that we have to jump through all these hoops. But that’s just the system that we’re in and the cards that we’ve been dealt. Now, thankfully, you were positively impacted by some of the changes that the Biden administration implemented where for individuals that maybe didn’t have all those T’s or I’s crossed because they didn’t necessarily know from Jump Street that they were going on a PSLF pathway, that there was a reconciliation process for those payments to count as qualifying payments, which you benefited from, is that correct?

[0:15:33] BR: Yes, because when I consolidated and got everything in order, and that was actually another thing. I didn’t realize, because you mentioned employment and the employer’s account. I really did not think that my residency training would count, and it was actually, again, Tim, who pointed out that he really thought it would. So, that was another thing that pushed me once I realized that that period of time also counted, that that shifted, I think, my willingness to go into PSLF.

But yes, I did benefit because I did have a – some of my loans were in the correct repayment plan, but I had some that were not. So, there was a gap of, I don’t know, maybe four or five years between some of the loans just because once I got those into the correct repayment plan, you know, it started from zero. So, it didn’t matter that I’ve been paying those loans for years, none of those previous payments had counted, because they weren’t in the correct repayment plan.

But luckily, with that Biden, that like one year, going back and counting, a lot of those payments that hadn’t previously counted towards the forgiveness were counted, which was great.

[0:16:48] TU: Yes. I think it was really helpful, especially for people Brenna, like you, that maybe necessarily didn’t start with a PSLF journey in mind. We are seeing more people now that they come out, they go into residency, they know, “Okay, I’m not going to defer, so I can count those as qualifying payments” and they’re thinking about PSLF as a strategy right away. But that hasn’t always been the case. Again, just based on the age of the program and the information that we have available.

One of the things that is beneficial about the strategy, as you’ve mentioned, as I’ve mentioned, is to try to pay as little out of pocket so that we can have as much forgiven tax-free. You mentioned before we hit record that you were able to have about five years, about half of the 10-year timeline of payments, actually, where you weren’t having to make payments at all. Tell us more about what was happening, where you were able to have such a large chunk of time where you didn’t have to make those payments.

[0:17:40] BR: Yes. So, everybody has been affected by the pause in payments with COVID. So, I was also affected by that. But I moved to Tanzania, actually in 2017. I was living there, full time. Because of that, it affected my taxes, and basically what it looked like, what my income looked like, and thus my repayment. So, if I remember correctly, there were a couple of years there where technically I could have been paying zero. I was still paying a small amount on my loans. But yes, I had a couple of years there, where just because of living internationally and working internationally. My income appeared low enough that – because it’s income-based, and so basically, my payment was functionally zero.

[0:18:33] TU: Yes. You had a few years of the pandemic freeze, as did other borrowers, were those counted as qualifying payments. That was one of the big questions when that freeze started, and that was good news that people that were pursuing PSLF, those counted as qualifying payments to the freeze that just ended here in September of 2023. Then, you have a couple years in Tanzania, you mentioned, perhaps this could have been zeroed out payments. You’re making small payments.

I’m glad you mentioned that because one of the most common questions that I get is should I defer my loans during residency, or in your case, residency and fellowship. While not blanket advice, generally, my answer is you don’t want to defer, and the reason you don’t want to defer is that typically because you’re earning such a low income while you’re in residency or fellowship relative to what you will earn, and how they do the calculations on these, often these will be very low, and sometimes $0 monthly payments. But as long as you’re inactive repayment, those count towards qualifying payments of the 120.

So, I still think there’s a lot of advice out there from maybe my generation of pharmacists or those even older. I graduated in 2008, where it was kind of blanket advice. Like differing residency, differing residency, and often the case may be actually not to defer, so you can get those accounts as qualifying payments.

[0:19:54] BR: Yes. It’s funny that you mentioned that, because you just triggered – that was – I think that’s actually, because I still had that had a feeling of what if something goes wrong with a PSLF. So even though I was being told those couple of years, “You don’t have to make a payment, it’s zero, it will still count.” I made the decision to make a small payment because I didn’t want anybody to be able to come back later and say, “Oh, you weren’t paying during these times.” So, I still had my own little, is this really going to work the way it’s supposed to work even at that point? But definitely, it makes sense to, if you’re going to do PSLF, to pay during residency, fellowship, those kinds of years when you’re not making very much money.

[0:20:44] TU: Yes, and one of the other, we won’t spend much time on this now. We’ll talk about it in another episode. But one of the advantages of the new save plan that was announced by the Biden administration here in the last couple of months, and certainly, it’s not the right fit for everyone. But especially those that are new graduates, new trainees in residency, there’s a provision as a part of that safe plan where as long as you’re making the minimum payment, whatever that is, based on your income, that your loan balance can’t grow, which is really nice. Because if you’re in deferment, like interest can still accumulate, you’re not making any payment technically. So, especially for those that are in one or two or more years of residency that can be, that can be really valuable.

Brenna, what did PSLF allow you to do in terms of other goals. Typically, if we’re optimizing the strategy, we’re hopefully paying less out of pocket than we normally would have with other strategies. And therefore, that gives us options to invest and save, or pursue other financial goals, where we don’t have to just solely focus on our student loans. So, for your situation, for your financial plan, what did PSLF allow you to do in terms of other goals?

[0:21:51] BR: I really, for the most part, focus a little bit more on investment retirement, and because really, I hadn’t been too focused on that until I was finishing a fellowship, going into an actual job, and I’m feeling like I had that money. So, I think that allowed me to focus a little bit. Because as I said, I sort of always thought that these loans would just be part of my life. So, it shifted my long-term thinking, and as we discussed before, having the loans forgiven didn’t really change my day to day. But even during that process, I think, instead of being so focused on I’m going to have to repay this at some point, I could really focus on that longer term, where do I want to invest my money.

I mean, yes, it did allow, because I think I would have been far more reluctant to maybe take this trip or that trip, for fear of what that meant longer term. So, it probably did allow me to feel a little more free to do those kinds of things. But for me, it was really more about the longer-term goals and being able to focus more on investments and retirement plans and those kinds of things.

[0:23:16] TU: That’s one of the things I love about this strategy is when we’re optimizing this, one of the goals we’re trying to achieve is to lower our adjusted gross income, the best that we can, which is the factor they’re using in the payment calculation to determine what your monthly payment is. One of the ways we can do that, kind of the low-hanging fruit, is making sure we’re maxing out traditional retirement accounts like a 401(k), a 403(b), and maxing out HSAs. So, there’s this beautiful double effect of not only are we then saving more through those vehicles, which are going to be able to grow and compound and time value of money, make sure we start that as early as we possibly can. But it’s also at the same time, lowering our monthly student loan payment, and that’s really cool. When we can see that working, and we all know our listeners know well, that when you’re saving even just a little bit more early in your career, and that money has a long time period to grow, that’s going to have a significant impact and effect.

Brenna, I’m curious, we have a group of graduates coming out right now that many may be listening to the show. We have three graduating classes now that haven’t had to make any payments on student loans, because of the freeze. Interest just started back up in September. Payments are resuming here next month in October. I think it’s fair to say, there’s a decent amount of anxiety. Maybe people that were making payments that didn’t have to, and now they’re having to make payments again. Or for new graduates, or just on the front end of this journey, and not really sure what is ahead, but certainly there’s some anxiety surrounding that. As you look backwards now, finish line has been crossed. You’ve had a large amount of debt forgiven, tax-free. What advice would you have, whether it’s pharmacy graduates, or medical school graduates, that are just getting started and they’re looking ahead and saying, “This feels big. This feels scary.”

[0:25:03] BR: I think I would say, definitely give PSLF some serious consideration. I won’t say it’s the right thing for everybody. Obviously, it can depend on how much debt you have, and what kind of job are you going into. How much are you going to be making? I’m in infectious diseases in medicine. That’s not a subspecialty that is known to make a lot of money compared to some others. So, for others – and I don’t know as much about pharmacists, and their training, and different specialties within that. But I would assume there’s some variation as well.

So, I think it is a very individual decision. And for me, though, as I said, having a financial planner, being able to discuss it, really just my income to debt ratio, PSLF was just very clearly the best option for me. So, I think, just really give it some serious consideration, and don’t talk yourself out of it immediately. It is working. Just my experience over many years, and with many different – having my loans switched from different companies, I can tell you, it’s been so much easier recently to be able to track things, to get information about things. It’s gotten so much easier over the years. I mean, it does work. There are more and more people with loans being forgiven. So, I hope that the concern and the fears are diminishing over time. I won’t say everybody needs to go out and do it. But I think it should be definitely a serious consideration as an option.

[0:26:52] TU: Yes. I’m glad you said that. We estimate in pharmacy, and I know it’s higher in medicine, just based on the distribution of practice, and where people are at nonprofit to for profit. But we estimate that about 25% to 30% of all pharmacy graduates are eligible or qualify for PSLF.

Now, they may not have the right debt-to-income ratio. It may not make sense. They may be unsure about how long they’re going to be in the nonprofit space, and there’s other questions. But to your point, Brenna, I think the take-home point I hear there is making sure that you’re considering it among all of the options, and running the numbers, how do we feel about it? What does this mean for other parts of the financial plan? And making sure that we feel that we’re making an informed decision, looking at all the different options that we have on the table. For some, that’s PSLF. For some, that could be a non-PSLF strategy over a long period of time, if they’re working for a for-profit. Or we have some individuals that say, “Hey, I really want to aggressively pay these off.” And they have reasons and a rationale that may make sense for them.

So, this is certainly an area where, whether we like it or not, student loan repayment is a somewhat complicated topic, and it’s something that we’ve really got to dig into and make sure that we’ve got good information as we look at and evaluate all the options that are available.

Well, Brenna, this has been awesome. I really appreciate you taking the time coming on the show to share your journey of having over $550,000 of debt that was forgiven, tax-free. As I mentioned at the beginning, we’re going to share some other resources in the show notes of where we’ve talked about public service, loan forgiveness, as well. And to the Department of Ed’s credit, as you gave them credit here, I think recently, of information getting better in the loan servicing companies. They have updated a lot of information and resources, and especially with so much changing right now, make sure to check that out at studentaid.gov.

Again, Brenna, thank you so much for taking time to come on the show.

[0:28:38] BR: Thank you.

[0:28:40] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again, thank this week’s sponsor of Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists in the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% down payment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time homebuyers, and has no PMI on a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage.

To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, and to get started with the pre-approval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[OUTRO]

[0:29:24] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post, and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analysis expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 320: How One Pharmacist Paid Off $345,000 in 5 Years

Posted on August 10, 2023August 9, 2023 by Tim U

Stacie Moltzan Loescher, PharmD paid off $345 000 of student loan debt in just five years and she joins us today to share her incredible journey to becoming debt free!

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Stacie Moltzan Loescher is a Pharmacist currently working in central processing for Albertsons Companies and is currently appointed as the Assistant Grand Vice President for Collegiate Affairs of the Phi Delta Chi Professional Pharmacy Fraternity. She attended Rosalind Franklin University of Medicine and Science where she received her Doctor of Pharmacy degree in 2017. During her career as a pharmacist, she has worked as Staff Pharmacist and Pharmacy Manager at multiple retailers throughout Wisconsin, Indiana, and Illinois. She has also served in multiple regional and national positions at Phi Delta Chi. She enjoys traveling, fishing, and fitness.

Episode Summary

Stacie Moltzan Loescher, PharmD paid off $345 000 of student loan debt in just five years and she joins us today to share her incredible journey to becoming debt-free! Tuning in, you’ll hear about the hard work and clear vision that led Stacie to the financial freedom she enjoys today. We unpack her process to aggressively repaying her loans, from working throughout pharmacy school and undergrad to paying off a car alongside her student debt. Stacie touches on how her childhood experiences impacted her approach to financial management as an adult, and reveals how she could sustain the momentum necessary to pay off the debt, before sharing powerful advice for graduates as they choose how to approach their own student debt. In closing, Stacie offers a glimpse into her future plans which are focused on building a net worth through side hustles and real estate investment.

Key Points From the Episode

An introduction to Stacie Moltzan Loescher and her story of becoming debt-free.
Her introduction to pharmacy growing up with two sisters with intensive medical needs.
Stacie’s career in pharmacy starting at CVS in Wisconsin.
A summary of her process to becoming 100% debt-free.
How Stacie celebrated her achievement by traveling!
Working throughout pharmacy school and undergrad.
What motivated her to choose an aggressive repayment strategy.
The desire for financial freedom behind her efforts to clear all debt.
How Stacie’s childhood experiences impacted her approach to paying off debt as an adult.
The car note she paid off in two years while erasing her student debt.
Sustaining the momentum in the midst of an aggressive payment plan.
Advice for graduates as they choose how to approach their student debt: start planning now!
What’s next for Stacie: building a net worth, considering real estate, investing, and picking up a PRN position to earn extra income.

Episode Highlights

“I’m just not a fan of paying interest. I’d rather be earning interest.” — Stacie Moltzan Loescher [0:11:48]

“I wanted to be able to have financial freedom sooner in my life. I feel like if I was paying off for ten years, I would have been strapped down to those loans for ten years, living paycheck to paycheck to try to pay them off.” — Stacie Moltzan Loescher [0:13:14]

“I didn’t like seeing debt behind my name because it’s not something that I heard growing up or in my family. My parents didn’t have debt.” — Stacie Moltzan Loescher [0:15:49]

“Don’t wait to approach your student debt. Start planning now, if you haven’t already.” — Stacie Moltzan Loescher [0:23:06]

“Start looking at what’s going to be the best loan repayment strategy for you, because there are different options that are better for different people.” — Stacie Moltzan Loescher [0:23:12]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here. Thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I welcome Stacie Moltzan Loescher onto the show to talk about her debt-free journey, both how and why she paid off $345,000 of student loans in just five years. We discussed her motivations behind aggressively paying off the student loans, how she was able to do it, strategies she employed to keep her momentum and motivation and lessons that she learned along the way. Before we jump into this inspiring interview, let’s hear a brief message from YFP team member Justin Woods.

[MESSAGE]

[0:00:38] JW: Hey, Your Financial Pharmacist community. This is Justin Woods here, Director of Business Development at YFP. You may be one of the 13,000 pharmacists that have already signed up for YFP Money Matters, which is our weekly newsletter. But if you’re not, what are you waiting for? I want to invite you to subscribe. We send financial tips, recommendations, the latest podcast episode, and money resources, all specifically for pharmacists. It all comes straight to your inbox every Friday morning, so visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/newsletter or click the link in the show notes to subscribe today. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/newsletter. See you there.

[EPISODE]

[0:01:23] TU: Stacie, welcome to the show.

[0:01:26] SML: Thanks for having me.

[0:01:28] TU: Before we jump into your incredible debt-free story and your journey, let’s start with your career journey into the professional pharmacy. Where did you go to school? What led you into the profession, and tell us about the work that you’re doing right now?

[0:01:41] SML: Sure, so I’ll start with what led me into the profession. I grew up with two disabled sisters, one older, one younger. They were both born with cleft palates. My older sister growing up, she couldn’t swallow pills. She still can’t swallow them to this day. That meant that we would often find ourselves at the pharmacy. They would have capsules ready and she couldn’t take them. We had to work with the pharmacist to get it changed to like a liquid form or sometimes the pharmacist might say like, “Oh, it can be open, and put into apple sauce.” Or what have you. But we often found ourselves working closely with the pharmacist to get it resolved.

Sometimes there would be insurance issues with that, because they don’t like to cover suspensions for 14-year-olds. We’ve had to work together with the pharmacist to get that resolved, whether it was a PA changing it, or taking it and crushing it up. Then putting it in liquid or apple sauce. Then my little sister, she was born when I was eight years old and she was born with what you call an esophageal atresia, which for those that don’t know what that is, that is where your stomach and esophagus isn’t fully connected.

After she was born, she was life-lighted to children’s hospitals. We had to undergo a surgery and that meant that she would be fed through a G-tube for the next 10 to 12 years of her life. She had to have everything liquid form and a lot of times with like amoxicillin, that’s like a different viscosity than a PediaSure is. We would have to dilute that before we could give it to her through the tube or else it would, the amoxicillin would like get stuck and clogged in the tubing.

If we gave her too much volume, she would like get sick, have side effects. We often found ourselves crushing medicine, too. Then suspending it in water to give it through the tube. Then she also had asthma. We were doing nebulizer treatments several times a day. Those experiences growing up really sparked my interest in pharmacy. Then I went to North Dakota State to study pre-pharmacy after I graduated high school. Then from there, I found myself in North Chicago, Illinois, at Rosalind Franklin University and after I graduated pharmacy school, I took a job at CVS as a pharmacist in Wisconsin.

[0:04:32] TU: Okay.

[0:04:33] SML: From there, I worked at different retailers, grocery chain retailers, big box retailers throughout Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin. Up until recently, I took a job with a grocery chain pharmacy as a central processing pharmacist. I’ve been there about four months now. In that role, we check prescriptions for their grocery stores in about 30 different states.

[0:05:02] TU: Oh, wow.

[0:05:03] SML: That’s where I’m at today.

[0:05:04] TU: Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing your career journey and the motivation behind getting into the profession. I’m going to read to kick off you sharing your debt-free story and for us to dive into this a layer deeper. I’m going to read a post that you shared on LinkedIn that really caught my attention and let me to reach out to you where you said.

“Last month, I made my last student loan payment, and my loan balance hit zero. After five years of working as many hours as my body would allow and living like a resident, I paid off $345,000, $235,000 of that was principal. My goal was aggressive as a first-generation and a single-income household to have it paid off in five years. I paid it off in five years, three months. I could have paid it off by the end of 2022 to meet my goal, but it actually made more sense to just pay the minimum payment over the past year since high yield savings account was currently earning more interest than I was paying an interest on my student loans. Cheers to being 100% debt-free now.”

Wow, just incredible Stacie. When I think about that dollar amount, we’ll talk here in a moment about some of the motivation and the why behind this journey. My first question for you is, what have you done to celebrate this accomplishment? Have you done anything yet to celebrate this accomplishment?

[0:06:20] SML: Not really. I believe I was like went out with like friends, Friday night. They were just like, “Congrats.” But I did a lot of travel over the last year since I wasn’t as aggressive as paying off in my last year. I did a lot of travel that last year, so I was celebrating that the end was near.

[0:06:43] TU: Yeah. Yeah. I asked that Stacie, because I think for myself included many pharmacists, we can be so focused on getting to the goal that really taking the time to celebrate. I’m glad to hear you did that with friends and also through some travel. It’s such an important part of the financial journey, right? This is a huge accomplishment, but you are just getting warmed up, right, with achieving many financial goals throughout your career. I think especially if you’re a goal-oriented, achievement-focused person, really taking time to slow down and treasure these moments along the way is really, really important.

My first question for you, Stacie. If we look at the median debt load today of pharmacy graduates, it’s hovering around 160 to $170,000. 345 is a big number, right? 235 in principle, so we can see the balance there that’s an interest, but even that 235 is substantially above the median debt load of a graduate. Why the higher balance? What do you attribute to that?

[0:07:40] SML: Yeah. Before I went to school, I was always looking into going to schools with lower tuition, and almost all that is from grad school. I only took out 5,500 in undergrad. I didn’t even need that, that was just because it was subsidized.

[0:07:58] TU: Yeah.

[0:07:58] SML: So, I wasn’t going to get any interest while I was in school. It’s a very low interest rate, so I took that undergrad loan, just off the advice that my aunt had given me that, “You need to take that, because it’s going to be the lowest interest rate you will ever get in your life.” She’s like, “Just put it in a savings account.” That’s what I did. That’s part of my emergency fund today, actually.

Then, so I didn’t get into those – my like preferred school with the lower tuition rates. What I ended up getting into was a school that I was very interested in, and that’s why I had applied, but it was a private school, Rosalind Franklin University. They do have a little bit higher tuition expense since they’re private, but pharmacy was my dream. I always knew that’s what I wanted to do. I went with it. I figured that I will figure out the student loans and pay them off as quickly as I can when I’m done.

[0:08:59] TU: Was the 235 all federal or was some of that private?

[0:09:03] SML: Everything was federal. I took out like the max amount that they would let you do, which was like $35,000 for tuition and then plus like another $20,000 on top of that for living expense, which really isn’t a whole lot to live off of. I did work like throughout all of pharmacy school and undergrad. Then, so that was all federal that was like just about the maximum amount they would let you take out. I did return some while I was in school, because they would let you borrow and then if I didn’t use it, if I worked and I made the money, I would actually return it. I could have borrowed. I think about 20,000 more would have been the max. Then that all capitalized, of course, after I graduated. I believe that capitalized to be $267,000.

[0:09:53] TU: Here. Here. New grads. Yes. Yes, super important to understand that. Yeah. When I look at that number, Stacie, 345, rough math. You paid off 345 over five years. It’s just shy of $70,000 a year. I think of a typical pharmacist income after taxes, maybe taking home 7-ish thousand dollars per month. Obviously, depends on tax situation. A whole host of other factors in terms of where their paycheck may be going.

Nonetheless, that is a massive percentage of ones take on pay, right? $70,000 a year on average. So, my question is I certainly have talked with a handful of pharmacists that have gone through an aggressive repayment period. Many others may look at this and say, “Hey, I want to take this over a longer time period, less restrictive on the monthly budget.” Allowing additional funds to achieve other goals, other financial goals or other life goals, right, that people have. You mentioned travel as one example. Why did you decide on an aggressive repayment strategy versus a longer, slower payoff that perhaps would have been less restrictive? What was the motivation for you?

[0:11:04] SML: I did not want to have those loans sit there for that long. If the longer you have them, the more you’re paying an interest, which I saw that like right away with my first student loan payment. My first student loan payment was almost entirely interest with no principal amount taken off, except for maybe $70 a principal. When I saw that, I was like, “This is going to take me forever. I need to put money towards the principal.” Any extra money I can to bring that principal balance down. I’m paying less interest, because the longer it takes to pay it off, the more interest you’re going to pay. I’m just not a fan of paying interest. I’d rather be earning interest.

[0:11:54] TU: Let me dig a layer deeper there. That’s what I’m getting to. Right? No right or wrong answer here. I always, I talk to pharmacist about student loans. One of the questions I like to ask them is, “Hey, where are you at on the student loan debt pain scale?” Right? Ten is the house is on fire. I want these gone yesterday. I would say you’re probably closer to that end of the spectrum, based on what I know thus far. Zero is like, ah, they are what they are. They’ll, they’ll take care of themselves eventually. That’s what I’m really trying to understand. No right or wrong answer, but when you say I hate interest, I want what money working for me. Take us a layer deeper, like what is behind that? Is it simply the stress and the weight of that over your shoulders and having the mental clarity to see forward without it? Tell us more.

[0:12:38] SML: I just, I like for my money to do stuff in the most, like the way where I save the most money, like I don’t want to spend an extra $20,000 towards interest, because I have to do an extra five years of payoff. I’d rather be done early, have that $20,000 and then be able to invest that or travel with that or do what I want with that. I wanted to be able to have financial freedom sooner in my life. I feel like if I was paying off for 10 years, I would have been strapped down to those loans for 10 years, living paycheck to paycheck to try to pay them off. Whereas if I figured if I worked really hard and I paid this off soon, then that 3000 plus a month that I’m putting towards student loans that I can then use that money how I want. If I want to invest it, if I want to travel.

[0:13:41] TU: Yeah.

[0:13:41] SML: I don’t have – I don’t need to be paying student loans. I can just use it how I want.

[0:13:47] TU: Yeah. That makes sense. I see the passion coming out there for you as you share that as well. One of the things I’m curious about Stacie, so often when we look at the financial decisions we make as adults, we can see trends that tie back to childhood experiences. It may not be that we are raised in the same way that motivates a decision to make today. It could in fact be the opposite or we’re trying to move in a different direction. Sometimes it’s affirming the decisions that were made for us or the household that we grew up in around money.

As you think about this strategy of, hey, I want to get to financial freedom. I want to pay down this debt aggressively. I want this money working for me, right? I don’t want to have to worry about interests, and so in the future. I can enjoy that on other things. Is there anything you attribute looking back from how you were raised, money approach in the household that impacts here, the approach that you took with your student loans?

[0:14:41] SML: Yeah, definitely. I grew up, my parents divorced at a young age, but my mom very low income, and that’s what I lived with. I lived with my mom. She was really, really good at like budgeting. I saw that like growing up, because she had a small income to live off of and raised three kids off of, so she budgeted very well with buying groceries to making sure she was getting the right coupons, so we could have food on the table and still live and have money for everything that we needed.

My dad was very frugal with his money. He bought a house when he was like 30 years old for $16,000 cash. Never had a mortgage, bought a fixer-upper. Still lives in that house to this day. It’s like a 125-year-old home, I think now. I think him never having any debt. He never had a credit card. He never had debt. He always paid everything cash. Bought his car’s cash. Bought his home cash. I think that’s why I didn’t like seeing debt behind my name, because it’s not something that I heard growing up or in my family. My parents didn’t have debt. It was like a newer thing for me to hear that and have so much. I just wanted to get rid of it. Throughout this process, I did pay off a car note to a $20,000 car note in two years, because I just didn’t want it gone.

[0:16:13] TU: Yeah. I can certainly see the threads, as you described to those experiences back to childhood. I think that’s something I’m always encouraging my own financial plan. I encourage others to look back as well, so much. Again, as I mentioned of how we approach our financial decisions. Good, bad or indifferent, right? Often ties back to some of the childhood experiences that we had.

Stacie, I’m curious. One of the challenges with an aggressive debt repayment plan, right? Five years, averaging about $70,000 a year, is being able to sustain the momentum and the motivation, right? We can start with good intents. Hey, I want to go aggressive repayment. That’s something I hear from many pharmacy graduates, but actually being able to sustain that momentum can be very challenging. What kept you motivated? What kept you going throughout that five-year period?

[0:17:01] SML: Yeah. I guess like my career itself kept me going. With that, it helped me earn more income. I spent three years, the last three years, like as a manager. I was picking up extra shifts, working extra hours and anything that I earned over my base salary, this over the course of my repayment, I always put the extra money towards my loans. When I floated, I was actually when I like started with my last company. I was brought on as a 48-hour pharmacist. That was like a lower salary, like 72,000 a year.

Anything, and I made my budget based off of that $72,000 which included a, I put 3,000 of that toward my student loan itself, which I was required to pay 2,300. I always did put 3000 towards it. That’s what my budget was based off of. Then anything I worked over that, 48 hours in a two-week pay period, I put towards a student loan. A lot of times I was working a hundred or 120 hours a pay period. All of that, I put to the student loan.

One of the jobs I had, I was getting reimbursed for gas and for tolls. All that gas reimbursement, toll reimbursement. I put all that to student loans. As I was just picking up extra hours and helping people, which is my passion. It’s just the money was coming in where I was able to just keep putting that towards my loans. Then as a manager, I was really, really driven to meet our store goals and such. I was at a store that was challenging, that needed a lot of work. I was able to just use that as my driving force to bring my store, to help my store achieve. Then with that, I was just working extra hours and that would help with my financial.

[0:19:11] TU: Yeah. What I hear there, Stacie, is you had a very clear goal and vision for your financial plan that really fueled the hard work. The hard work, which produced the payments and the additional income was directly going towards your loans, which that momentum would then build upon itself. You said something really important there that I want to make sure we don’t overlook, which was, that’s what my budget could afford, right?

You made extra payments, but you mentioned with the $3,000, that’s a really key, important piece for those that are getting started with their student loan repayment journey, when you have so many different options to consider, especially for those that might work in a nonprofit sector, or have a loan forgiveness option, or choose an aggressive repayment and are looking at these two ends of the spectrum. How much your budget can afford is a critical number to understand to determine which loan repayment option may be best for your situation. Great wisdom there, Stacie, that you shared. I want to make sure we didn’t overlook that.

One of the most common questions I get when I present to new graduates or I talk about student loans is, should I pay down my debt or should I in invest? How do I balance these two? My stock answer is, it depends, right? It depends on a lot of factors. How do you feel about the debt? What’s your repayment plan? What is your budget afford? What’s your timeline towards retirement? How conservative or aggressive are you? There’s just so many components. I’m curious to hear from you, no right or wrong answer again. How did you reconcile this decision towards more debt payment and perhaps delaying that investing for a period of time?

[0:20:45] SML: Yeah. I was fortunate that when I did start my debt repayment, I already had an emergency fund built up when I started working when I was 14. When I was 14, I was putting half of every paycheck away into a savings account to save for college. I never, actually, used that money for any expense. It is my emergency fund today. I already had that set-in stone. Then I did actually work on the other goals while paying this off. I was always taking the employer match from my 401k.

I was always like I always have done a high deductible health insurance plan. I always put the 3,500 is like what it is today, towards my HAS. Then investing within that after I had a thousand dollars in there. I’ve also done just my own investments, just a smaller amount each month. I’ve done Acorns, like Robinhood, but I don’t do as much, because there’s more risk. At one of the jobs that I had actually, I was not eligible for an employer match until one year in. I only worked there for five months, but –

[0:22:03] TU: Okay.

[0:22:04] SML: That job, I actually did not contribute to a 401k, because I was not going to get a match. I decided to put that money towards the student loans at that time, which my plan was to do that until I hit one year with the company and then I was going to start taking the match. So that job, I didn’t contribute to a 401k, anything that would have went to a 401k went to student loans instead.

[0:22:28] TU: It makes sense, especially without having the match component there. Stacie, I’m curious to hear your advice for new grads, right? We have now three graduating classes that have yet to pay on or required to pay on their federal student loans, because of the pause dating back to the beginning of the pandemic. I’m sensing as those repayments are going to start back up, many graduates from last few years are feeling overwhelmed, they’re stressed or discouraged. There’s a lot of uncertainty. What advice would you have for graduates coming out as they look to approach their student loan debt?

[0:23:04] SML: My advice would be, don’t wait. Start planning now. If you haven’t already.

[0:23:09] TU: Amen.

[0:23:12] SML: Start looking at what’s going to be the best loan repayment strategy for you, because there is different options that are better for different people. For some people, it’s going to be doing the public service loan forgiveness. Some people that might have a house and kids and have like those extra payments that they need to make, they might have to do more of an income based, but start having that strategy and that plan now and make a budget if you don’t have one already. Have a budget, so that way you can and start like using that budget now. So that way when those student loans, you have to start repaying them, it’s not a shock and you’re like, “What am I going to do?” So, start planning now.

[0:23:55] TU: That’s great. Great advice. I think that that’s a message I’ve been trying to get out, but because we’ve had several extensions of the pause. I think there’s been – some of this feeling of, hey, when exactly are these going to come back online or will they, might there be another extension. Now that we have some clarity of when these will start back up, to your point, this is the time period, right? This is the time period to make sure that we’re understanding our options.

We’ve got clarity on the best repayment plan for one situation. To your point we begin to weave that and work that into the budget, right? Even if we’re just putting that in a savings account for now, we’re building those reps and those behaviors, so when that turns back on, we’ve accounted for it and we can move forward with the confidence knowing that we’ve already planned for that. Whether we like it or not. There’s a lot of repayment options, and strategies, and nuances.

Fortunately, the system is maybe more complicated than it needs to be, but that’s the hand that we’ve been dealt in. Really, it’s upon the shoulders of the borrower to make sure that they’re understanding those options. We’ve got lots of resources on the YFP website. If you need some help navigating that forward. Stacie, what’s next for you? Right? This is an important milestone, but you’re just at the beginning of your journey. What does success look like for you going forward?

[0:25:12] SML: At this point, I’m looking at like building a net worth, how that looks. I have like several different things in mind. I am interested in real estate. I thought about maybe like a duplex or something, living in one half, like renting out the other, investing, just different things I’ve thought about. I also am potentially looking at picking up a PRN position to earn some extra income, because the central processing job did come with a little bit of a pay cut. I’m looking to see if there’s a way, I can bring more income in different side hustles.

I definitely, want to do a side hustle, because I have a better work-life balance now, where I have the time to do more, because I can’t pick up extra shifts like I was able to do before. This is just a straight 40-hours a week. I really want to use my time to see how I can earn more income. Then decide how we’re going to use it.

[0:26:22] TU: Yeah. This is I often give the analogy of a marathon when my wife and I went through the journey of paying off our student loan debt, which wasn’t quite as large, but it was a big amount. I often had in my mind this visual where, “Hey, once we get to the end of the student loans.” Like, we’ve arrived, right? We’re at the finish line. I often say, it’s like running a marathon where when you get to the point of in this situation, an important milestone of student loan debt paid off or running a marathon. We might be at mile marker three, right? We’ve started the race. We’ve got a long way to go.

I love the vision you’re articulating, whether it’s around real estate, whether it’s around other side hustles. I can sense an intentionality that as you start to evolve other parts of your financial plan, you’ve got clarity on why you’re going to be doing that and where those funds are going to be going towards. Stacie, I greatly appreciate you taking the time to come onto the show to welcome our community into your story and your willingness to share it. I’m really looking forward to following your journey ahead.

[0:27:20] SML: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[OUTRO]

[0:27:23] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show has provided you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists and less otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 303: How This Pharmacist Paid Off $115k in Two Years

Posted on April 13, 2023April 7, 2023 by Caitlin Boyle

Dr. Donisha Lewis talks about her debt-free journey, why and how she got involved in real estate investing, and how she and her husband got on the same page to achieve their financial goals.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Donisha Lewis is a clinical pharmacist at an ambulatory care facility where she collaborates with providers of the Hematology/Oncology and Internal Medicine departments to create treatment plans for patients. She attended the University of Louisiana at Monroe College of Pharmacy where she received her Doctor of Pharmacy degree in 2011. During her career as a pharmacist, she has served patients in the community, inpatient, specialty, and ambulatory care settings. She is also a real estate investor alongside her husband. She enjoys traveling, spending time with family, and volunteering.

Episode Summary

This week on the YFP Podcast, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, welcomes Dr. Donisha Lewis to the show to discuss her debt-free journey. During this episode, listeners will hear the how and why of Donisha’s path toward financial freedom, how she got her start in real estate investing, and how she and her husband got on the same page to tackle $115,000 in debt in just two years. Donisha shares her pharmacy story, what drew her to the pharmacy profession, and her financial picture upon graduation from pharmacy school. With plans to tackle her $99,000 in student loan debt as soon as possible, her mindset and approach to debt payoff were critical in achieving this goal. She shares practical tips and tricks from her experience in paying off a combined $115,000 between herself and her husband, and advice for recent graduates who may not have started making payments on their loans due to the student loan pause. Making sacrifices while remaining realistic, Donisha built a budget that allowed her and her husband to combine the snowball and avalanche strategies. Using her budget, she identified wasted spending and analyzed her savings to determine the amount she was comfortable contributing to the debt payment. Tim and Donisha talk about the importance of having a shared financial vision with your partner and the benefit of having varied strengths in personal finance.

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I welcome Donisha Lewis onto the show to talk about her debt-free journey, why and how she got started in real estate investing, and how she and her husband have been able to get on the same page to achieve their financial goals. If you’re interested in learning more about working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals. You can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. The team at yfpplanning includes five certified financial planners that are serving more than 280 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers fee-only, high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. Whether or YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. Okay. Let’s jump in our interview with Donisha Lewis. Donisha, welcome to the show.

[0:01:02] DL: Thank you for having me.

[0:01:04] TU: Well, I am really excited for this conversation. You and I connected via LinkedIn through a mutual colleague, Dr. Jerrica Dodd. After we connected, and I learned a little bit more about your journey as eager to share your story with our listeners. So we’re going to dig into your debt-free journey, paying off the student loans. We’ll talk about some real estate investing as well. But before we get into all of that, let’s start with your career journey. Where did you go to pharmacy school and what led you into the profession?

[0:01:34] DL: Absolutely. I completed my pharmacy degree at the University of Louisiana at Monroe, back in 2011. As a child, I wanted to be a pediatrician, actually. My mom actually put me into a program, at the time, you could kind of shadow physicians. We didn’t shadow them seeing patients, but just the day in the life when they were doing their office hours. We went up to the operating room, and I saw all the tools and I just said, “You know, I have to find something else to do, because this is pretty intimidating.” I didn’t really want to perform any surgeries. I really didn’t think that I wanted to do anything that had that much patient contact as it related to doing surgery, stitches, anything like that. That really made me reconsider being a physician. So I started researching other medical professions that weren’t as hands-on, if you will. That’s when I came across pharmacy.

I actually have an uncle who’s a pharmacist too. That led me to the profession. I was still able to interact with patients, but not necessarily be as hands-on as I would have been as a physician. That’s what led me into the space.

[0:02:44] TU: I can relate to that. I went into pharmacy right out of high school and I was interested in medical professions at large. But the whole blood thing, you know, kind of scared me away. You hear that story often with pharmacists. One of the many reasons. I’m not sure that’s a great reason not to go into other ones, but it was an important one for me at that time. Tell us more.

So you graduated 2011. Coming up on your 12 years out into the profession, what have you been working on this point since graduation? I understand you’ve had experience in community practice, ambulatory care, a little bit in management as well. Give us that career journey over the last decade or so.

[0:03:22] DL: Sure. I began my career with one of the large retail pharmacies. I stayed with them for a little while. Then, during my time with them, I was able to get a PR, inpatient clinical pharmacist position, so I was doing both. From there, I was able to transition into a specialty pharmacy role, which was within a hospital practice. I like to say it was a combination of outpatient community pharmacy, as well as some inpatient clinical pharmacy. I really enjoyed that role. Now, I’m with an academic-based practice, and I’m helping them expand pharmacy services there. I am in a clinical role there, and we are expanding our services throughout the practice. We have some collaborative practice agreements in place. I’ve also started an ambulatory care clinic with the Department of Internal Medicine, and we’re launching specialty pharmacy there as well.

[0:04:16] TU: Wow. I love it. I love it. Some of our listeners, especially those that have graduated here in the last five or so years. I graduated in 2008, so we’re pretty close in that timeframe. When you and I graduated, student loans were – they were a thing, but they weren’t as big of a thing as they are today. We see lots of graduates coming out with you know, $200,000, $250,000 of student loan debt. Average right now is about 160,000. I think sometimes, when we talk about our own journeys, 10, 12, 13 years ago, people were like, “Oh, well. That was only $100,000.” It’s like context, context of what pharmacists were making at the time, as well as – that’s still a substantial amount to pay off. I think we’ve become a little bit numb to the indebtedness and the debt loads that are out there.

Let’s talk about your student loan journey. Give us the juicy details. How much did you have upon graduation, and what was your mindset at the point of graduation about how you wanted to approach the student loan debt?

[0:05:20] DL: Sure. When I graduated, I came out with right under $100,000 in student loan debt. Like 99,000 and some change is what I owed. For me, when I came out of school, we were at the end of the shortage, approaching really a saturation of pharmacist. One thing that I wanted to do was definitely be conservative in my spending because of that, but also not being comfortable with that type of debt that really led me to make decisions. Basically, like I was still a college student, related to my finances. I’m sort of grateful for that time coming out of school. It was an interesting time, because I saw a pharmacist when I started pharmacy school being offered all these incentives, and bonuses, and that stopped.

As soon as I graduated, those bonuses, and all of those incentives, they stopped. That’s a very big difference. I heard of people getting these extremely, just extreme amounts of bonuses, cars, all these things. For all of that to stop, I really wanted to be very cautious in my decision-making financially, because I really wasn’t sure what the future of pharmacy was at the time. One of the things to do with obviously, live below my means, but also reduce this debt. That was very important to me. With that large number, though, it’s intimidating.

Like you said, nowadays, 99,000 is not that much, unfortunately, for a lot of pharmacy grads. But to me, that was a lot. That was the framework, the mindset. I really did not want to have that debt looming over me like that for an extended amount of time.

[0:07:07] TU: It’s interesting to hear you share the timeframe you were in. I graduated in 2008, which was still at the time sign-on bonuses. We’re happy. I remember I made the decision to go do residency. I was going to make a whopping $31,000 salary all the while. Cars and sign-on bonuses we’re having. I remember one specific offer that was out there. It was one of the big chains that was offering a million dollars to go work in Alaska for a three-year deal.

[0:07:31] DL: Wow.

[0:07:33] TU: I remember, I mean, times changed significantly. You saw that happen, you graduate in 2011. We’re actually swinging back into some of that right now, which is an interesting discussion for another day. But you said something that I want to dig into a little bit deeper, which is, I’m not comfortable with that amount of debt, right? Whether the number was 99, or 150, or 50, I get a sense that just overall, you wanted this debt off of your shoulders. Tell us more about that, because I will talk with some people, Donisha that will say, “Hey, I’ve got $250,000 of debt.” And you’ll see a range of emotions to that debt. The number can be the same. In one instance, the house is on fire, it’s causing anxiety, it’s causing a lot of stress, and worry.

Then the other end, it might be, “Nah, it is what it is. It will kind of take care of itself over time.” Where was your motivation, your mindset around, “I want that off my shoulders”? Tell us more about why you felt that way.

[0:08:31] DL: Sure. For me, I, as a pharmacist, we have the actions to work part-time jobs, or pick up extra shifts and all of these things. Initially, I was thinking, “Oh, I can do that when I want to do extra things.” But I realized that that wasn’t very fun working all the time, so that was extra motivation to really have that time back and not feel like I had to work so hard in so much because I had this amount of debt. I felt like I couldn’t really do much else, because I owe someone else all this money. For me, personally, that’s just my belief with that, I really wasn’t comfortable making more decisions and making big purchases, and really moving my life forward the way that I wanted to, because I owe this large amount of money. It was really uncomfortable for me, but I do know, you know, like you said, other people, they’re totally comfortable with it. They’re like, “Well, hey, I’ll pay it off eventually.” But I just wasn’t okay with that, and I initially scheduled my student loans for a 10-year pay off. But even with that, I was like, “This isn’t going to work. Let’s speed this up.” So that’s what happened.

[0:09:37] TU: Yes. I would really encourage the listeners, especially those that are listening, that our students are just getting started. When it comes to the financial plan, I think what you’re highlighting so well here is there’s the objective numbers part of it, how much debt, what’s the strategy, what’s the plan. But then there’s the emotional side of it as well, which is really important. Folks often talk about how much a personal finance is behavioral. As each year goes on, I’m believing that more, and more, and more. There’s so much to be said about acknowledging the emotional side, the behavioral side of financial planning. There is no right or wrong answer. That’s I think it’s so important to communicate that, whether you are someone that looks at debt, and you have a lot of aversion to it, and it’s causing you stress, and it’s causing anxiety, like honor that. Honor that and develop a plan around that.

For folks that feel differently, making sure you’re finding a way to mitigate the risk, but just understanding having the self-awareness of where you are, emotionally in terms of viewing different parts of the plan.

[0:10:35] DL: Absolutely.

[0:10:37] TU: Donisha, I’m curious to hear your perspective. We are now approaching three years since the beginning of the pause on any payments being due for federal student loans because of the pandemic. So March 2020 was the beginning of the passage of the CARES Act, it’s been extended several times. We’ve had a freeze on payments, a freeze on interest rates. We now are coming up on class of 2023. We’ll be the fourth graduating class, and depending on what happens here, with the Supreme Court decision, and when the when the payments begin, potentially the fourth class that has not had to make payments on their student loans. I think that is a blessing, and it also presents some challenges. I’d love your perspective as someone who has gone through this journey, what would you have to say to those that are coming out, and those that are recent graduates about, “Hey, be thinking about this when these payments begin, because they will begin at some point.”

[0:11:32] DL: Absolutely. I think if you’re in the position where you are making the money that the average pharmacist makes. I would strongly consider starting to plan now, or starting to make those payments, and loan forgiveness and all of that. Those things are still in legislation. I really don’t recommend waiting for that to happen. It may very well happen. But I feel like if you’re in the six-figure zone, I don’t think the full amount will be forgiven. Even just now, thinking about your strategy, thinking about how you want to approach it, and especially if you’re someone who’s not comfortable with it, you definitely don’t want to just ignore it. There are different strategies that you can take to make sure that you aren’t – it’s completely ignoring it, but you’re still comfortable in your lifestyle. I would really do my research there and begin to plan and have a decision to take some action on that.

[0:12:30] TU: Yes. Such a good time to game plan, right? That timeline to game plan has been extended. We were saying back in 2020, use this window, come up with the plan. I think that’s had a – it’s lost its effect right over time, because it’s been extended so many times. But I love what you’re sharing there, because if payments start back up, and you’ve got a plan, great, you hit the ground running. If payments don’t start back up, but you have a plan, and you’ve just had expenses. That’s great, too, We can allocate that to different parts of the plan. I think my fear is that, especially with rising housing costs, often we have student loan borrowers, that are also first-time homebuyers, like pharmacists making a great income. But at the end of the day, there’s only so much income to go around.

When you’re looking at $200,000 of student loan debt, rising home costs, and obviously inflation. There’s been other competing expenses, I’m sure for many people as well. You start to get pinched in all different directions, and we’ve got a reset. What is that payment going to be when we come out of the pause? Look at the options. Are we doing a 10-year standard repayment? Are we doing an income-driven repayment? Are we doing a loan-forgiveness pathway? What is that monthly amount going to be based on the strategy, and then how do we work that into the budget to make sure that we’re ready?

I do think, though, that for folks that have really optimized this time period, the we have heard of situations of pharmacists that hey, I had a big student loan payment. But because that’s been on pause, I’ve been able to pay off credit card debt or I’ve been able to build up my emergency fund, or focus on another debt that was getting paid off as well. Hopefully, there’s been a lot of wins and opportunities that have come from this

[0:14:05] DL: Yes, I hope so too.

[0:14:07] TU: Let’s talk about how you were able to accomplish this. We can debate whether or not $100,000 is a lot. I think it’s a lot.

[0:14:14] DL: I do too.

[0:14:16] TU: It wasn’t just the amount, but it was the time period and the intensity. Couple years that you paid this off. I’m curious, you know, what sacrifices did you have to make to be able to allocate as much as possible towards the student loans, and then how did you keep up that momentum and the intensity of it knowing that two years, yes, it’s a short period. But when you’re in that type of intense debt repay off, that can feel like a long time. What were the sacrifices and then how did you keep the momentum?

[0:14:47] DL: Sure. I did this with my husband. Total, it was $115,000 together, between the two of us and that did include a car loan. We just included all the debt. We didn’t have credit card debt, but we did have the student loan debt and the car loan. I will be honest, in the beginning, we really didn’t know how long it was going to take us. We just knew we wanted to get more aggressive with our payoff. We use the snowball strategy. Some people don’t know what that is. You just put all your loans in order, you start with the lowest amount, and put them down in order, and you pay the first one off, and then you just roll that payment into the next payment, and you keep going.

The first thing we did, Tim, was we just looked at our budget. If you don’t have a budget, you can create one. I would say, look at the last few months of your banking statements, credit card, all that stuff, put it together, create a budget based off that. Now, the first thing you would do is, you want to see, “Am I spending more than I’m making?” If that’s the case, then you really need to, again, create some type of strategy. That’s what we did. We looked at our budget, we looked at our spending. Even though we did live below our means, I think everybody can identify areas of waste in their budget. For us, that was food.

We would go to the store, buy groceries for the week or so, get tired, go buy food out, because we didn’t want to cook. Meanwhile, those groceries, they’re no longer, you know, you can no longer eat them. They’ve gone bad. So now, we’re throwing away food and buying more food. We really identified that, and that was a big area for us that we could cut down on. So really, looking at your budget, identifying areas of waste. That’s another thing that we did. Then, we just looked at our savings to see what we were comfortable with going at the debt.

I know a popular snowball or the author of Snowball, they recommend the $1,000 for your emergency fund. That wasn’t realistic for us. I live in DC, my husband and I are both from Louisiana. If something happened, $1,000, we couldn’t even get home. We had to make that a larger number, but whatever is comfortable for you.

We did take some of our savings, and we just did the Avalanche Method, which is where you put a large amount of money towards the debt. We use that. During that time, we had just purchased our first home, which was a fixer-upper, pre-foreclosure. In that, the next year, we got a lot of tax benefits, because we did a lot of improvements. When we received that tax return, threw it at the debt, like that’s what we did. So, sometimes things like that happen. Anytime that happens, just throw it at the debt. I recommend being realistic. When I say create your budget, identify areas of waste, going back to the food example. If you’re someone that’s eating out five or six times a week, don’t just say, “Oh, I’m going cold turkey.” It’s not realistic, and you’ll probably be miserable. That’s not the goal, because then you really, probably will quit before you get to the finish line.

What I would recommend is, being realistic with your goals. If you’re eating out five times a week, maybe cut it down to one to two times a week, and also reduce the level of the restaurant. Maybe not the most expensive place, maybe like a mid-range place. You definitely don’t want to deprive yourself. For us, we also like to travel. We decided, okay, instead of maybe taking three to four trips a year, you just do one. That’s what we decided to do, so that reduced a lot of money going out as well.

Setting up some realistic expectations once you do your budget, identifying that waste. Another thing with a budget, some people don’t realize, if you get paid bi-weekly, two times out of the year, you get a third check. For us, that was a mini bonus. What we would do was really strategize with that check. Do I want to spend a portion of that to do something that I’ve kind of cut back on to pay off the debt? To pay off the debt, do I want to put the entire mini bonus toward the debt? Really like looking at different areas that you can strategize in. Another area of waste is subscriptions to the gym, to subscription services, with television or all those things. Just looking at your finances, there may be things coming out every month, $7 here, $10 there. Those things add up.

If you’re not using those things, you can cancel those subscriptions. That’s what I advise, looking at those bank accounts. That’s what we did. Identify as much waste as possible within reason. Then any type of extra money that we received via from tax return, a bonus from your job, or just that extra third check, being strategic about that, and putting it toward the debt. By doing that, we really started to change the way we viewed money during that timeframe, and we got excited about it, and we just really wanted to keep it moving, keep rolling, put more and more money toward it.

During that time, “Tim,” life was still happening. We had unexpected things come up, where we had to pivot, we had to make adjustments. But we never touch the emergency fund, we just adjusted how much we were paying on the debt. We still did it. In two years, we were not expecting that at all. So if you really are serious about it, and you set the foundation, and really make realistic goals, I think you can be successful and also run your own race. Don’t compare too much. It took us two years, but we were only responsible for ourselves financially at the time. That was another thing we knew, “Hey, we’re only responsible for ourselves right now. Let’s take this opportunity, because we don’t know what may change in the future to get this done now.” When your own race, if it takes you longer, that’s fine as long as you’re trying and you’re taking some action on that.

[0:20:48] TU: I love that. So much to unpack there. I think the theme I heard was really a mindset around the intentionality with the financial plan, and several things that you outlined, right? Making sure that you’ve got a budget that is realistic, that one is going to be able to keep the momentum so important. I think we often try to go from 0 to 60 budget. We get frustrated. It further disenfranchises us from the process overall, and it’s something as important as track back 90 days. You said a few months of looking at expenses, before we set these goals that may or may not be realistic. Let’s look at what we have been spending. Sure, we might pivot. You gave the example of eating out. But we want to pivot in a way that, yes, it’s going to free up some cash flow that allows us to achieve the goal. Whether that’s paying down student loan debt, whether it’s paying down other debt, maybe it’s saving for a home, saving for investment property. Whatever the goal is, we got to have cash flow. But just as important, if not maybe more important is the momentum to keep going.

We don’t want a system and a process that’s going to bog us down, it’s going to leave us frustrated. I think making sure that we’re finding that balance of enjoying things along the way, but also, whatever system we’re building, we feel that it’s built in a way that we’re going to be able to sustain it.

[0:22:04] DL: Absolutely.

[0:22:05] TU: I know. I’ve fallen victim too, and I think we see this a lot with people that are getting started, is they develop a beautiful system because they’re really motivated and excited. Then two months later, we’re kind of falling back into the patterns we were, because it’s so much to manage and so much to keep up with. We have a free template for folks that want to get started with the budgeting process, you can go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budget. We’ll link to that in the show notes, you can download that.

Then from there, you could use Excel. If you’d like to stay in Excel, you can use a bank tool, you can use mint, you can use – [inaudible 0:22:39] lots of different budgeting tools and options that are out there. Donisha, I want to dig into the we factor more, I heard you say we multiple times throughout the journey. We as in the debt, we as in the plan that we’re developing, we as in making the decisions on what was most important and what goals we’re going to achieve. There’s a lot to get on the same page with and I don’t want to take for granted how hard it can be to have a shared vision where two people are rowing in the same direction. I often have the opportunity to talk with folks, but that may not be the case. You may have one person who’s really engaged, one person who’s not engaged, or one person that grew up in a very different money household than someone else. For different reasons, they’re grown in two different directions.

It’s so hard for them to achieve the goals without first sharing the vision of being on the same page. I sense a very united we front as you were talking. Tell us more about what that looks like, give us the sneak peek into the kitchen table. How have you been able to get on the same page and keep that momentum together?

[0:23:45] DL: Absolutely. I appreciate you for acknowledging that. One thing about us, we’re blessed to go to a church that has a budget class. We took a budget class before we even got married together. That really put us on the same footing. We had the same vision and the same goals of what we wanted to achieve, but the pathways were a little different. In taking that class, we took it together, and we’ve really kind of established that foundation. The budget to me is the first step for everything. Now, once we got married and our finances were together, we really had to look at each other’s strengths. My husband is the big-picture person, I’m the day-to-day person.

When we were doing our debt payoff, I was the one looking at the budget every day and saying, “Okay, we need to slow down in this area because we’re only two weeks into the month and we’re not going to reach our budget goal if we don’t slow down.” That was my job. That’s okay. Then, what we would do is we would have meetings together where I would discuss certain things with him. He’s looking at the bigger picture, and also projecting what’s the next stage after that. That’s kind of his role. I’m the person that goes back, kind of works on the strategy, and looks at the day-to-day and the little details that he really does not want to do at all. We really show one another grace in that and really appreciate our differences, and use those differences for the benefit of the team. That’s how we do it.

[0:25:21] TU: I love that. I think just the awareness to acknowledge the different strengths to articulate that to one another, to embrace the strengths that come with those roles naturally, and then to align those so you can move forward. I love what you’re saying about the budget. I often encourage folks, “Hey, start with the vision and the dream.” Then as you work into the budget, the budget is really the roadmap for how you’re executing your goals. It’s a direct representation of what you are saying collectively is the priority or is not the priority. I think for folks that are listening, and maybe don’t feel like you’re on the same page with a vision, I would really encourage you to start there. Because I think when two people get excited about the vision, before you maybe get bogged down in the weeds of the numbers, like if we can get on the same page about the vision, awesome.

This is what financial success looks like for us as a couple or for us as our family. All right. Now, let’s develop the budget in the system that is the roadmap to achieve those goals. We said these things are most important. Are they represented? If not, why not? What can we change? What should we do differently? I think that that really helps folks get aligned. I think we often think of budgeting as restrictive.

[0:26:35] DL: Absolutely.

[0:26:36] TU: But if we reframe as, “Hey, this is the mechanism in which we’re achieving our goals. I’ll never say it’s exciting, but I think it’s a path in that direction of – and especially if we layer automation on top of that.” Okay. We’re now identifying the goals and automating the goals that we collectively said are most important. Then watch out, right? Because if you have come together on the same page to define the vision, and you’re starting to achieve that, and you both see that happening, things start to move from that forward of what else is possible.

[0:27:08] DL: Absolutely. You hit the nail on the head, especially for us, because the next move was real estate investing for us. That was something that my husband was much more on board with than I was. I’m a pharmacist. We like things to be in a nice little package. It all has to make sense. That was risky to me. I was interested, but I just really didn’t want to dive in. But once we work together to pay that debt off, and I saw the power of the teamwork for us, I just felt like, “Hey, we can do this.” Even if things go beyond what we expected, or things change, and we have to pivot, we have already done that with the loan payoff. So it really strengthened that teamwork, and I was able to get on board with the real estate investing afterward.

[0:28:01] TU: Yes, right. We’ve accomplished this as a team. Obviously, at that point, you’re working from a position of financial strength. We’ve got no debt. We’ve got a fully-funded emergency fund. We’re able to take on a little bit of risk, such that, if things go differently than as planned, it’s not going to create additional stressors. Let’s talk about the real estate. There’s lots of different types of real estate, from passive to active. The guys on the real estate investing podcast that we launched, every Saturday, David and Nate do a great job of talking about the spectrum of real estate, featuring different pharmacists that are investing in all different types.

I think that, at least for me, when I first heard about real estate investing, and really started to dig into learning more. I had a very active image in my mind of, you know, you buy a property, you hold it for the long term, you manage it, you’re fixing things, and a lot of people do that. But there are also more passive strategies, there’s fix and flips, short-term rentals, being in the bank, there’s a lot of different ways to go at it. Knowing the variety of pathways that are out there, tell us more about the pathway that you and your husband decided to go, and how you got to the decision to go down that path.

[0:29:06] DL: The first property that we purchased, it was a pre-foreclosure. It was a situation where it was in the budget that we wanted and the location was good. But the location is really what was most important to us. That’s why I got on board with something that needed renovation, because I realized if you want something that’s turnkey in this neighborhood, it’s far past your budget. I said, “Okay. We’re going to do this, and so we did.” We renovated the home, we didn’t do any structural renovations, but we did – basically got the house. We did that, that went off really well. We stayed in the home for a little while and then we sold it. When we sold it, we sold it before the pandemic when the prices just went crazy. It was before that.

But to see the amount of appreciation in that home, a light bulb went off in my head like, “This is what they’re talking about when they say, real estate can really propel you into financial independence.” From there, the plan was to continue to buy homes, renovate, and then maybe hold them for a little while, depending on what the market was looking like, and then to sell them. That was the plan. But we ended up moving into another home that was a newer build. From there, we have the home that we’re in now, we just renovated this one. We’re kind of still working out the strategy, but the other home is – we’re using it as a long-term rental.

Ideally, we would like to be able to do a flipping business, because we like to do it. But as we’ve done more research, we realize that being able to hold on to some of these properties, and leverage the equity in them, we can propel a lot faster. Our strategy really is to buy, renovate, hold. Then, you know, use that leverage to buy again, which is called the birth strategy. That’s really what we’ve chosen to do. We are open though, toshort-termm rentals. We are exploring other markets for that as well, and really just trying to have a somewhat diversified real estate portfolio. Not to diversify, because I do feel like if you focus on one or two things, you do a lot better. But that’s really our strategy.

We’re okay with doing construction, we’re okay with doing renovation, we’ve done it, and we’re okay. At this point, we’re doing long-distance investing. That’s really our next step.

[0:31:32] TU: I love it. I think it’s a great example of you, take that initial step and kind of get over that initial fear. Then, some things goes plan, some don’t. It opens up some different doors or opportunities. I think for everyone, their journey may be different of what they’re comfortable with in terms of risk tolerance, how active they do or don’t want to be in the process as well.

For folks that are listening to this and hearing some of the strategies that you’re talking about with the birth strategy and leveraging the equity in long-term rentals versus short-term rentals. The Real Estate Podcast, they’ve covered much of that and a future pharmacist stories as well. So we’ll link to that in the show notes. I would encourage folks to check out that podcast as well. I’m curious to know, it sounds like you’re fairly active, right? When you’re talking about the flipping, the construction, is that you and your husband? Is that you managing the project? Are you passive? It sounds like you’re very active. Am I reading that right?

[0:32:23] DL: We are very active. He’s more of the project manager. I’m the money person. I actually analyze the deals, I research areas, and research deals. Then I bring them to him, and we kind of analyze those together. He is the negotiator as well. When the negotiations happen, I walk away, Tim. I’m a lot more polite when it comes to that. I just walk away and let him do his thing. That’s him. He’s definitely the project manager. Working with the contractors and all of that, and I’m more so the person managing the budget, finding the deals, and then we work together on design.

[0:33:02] TU: Okay. Just like your personal finances, it sounds like you have identified strengths, and roles, and areas of responsibility. It’s your own business, within the family unit, which is really cool. I’m curious to know, deal finding. I think that’s one of the biggest barriers for people getting started is where do I look? It feels like people that are in this are just a huge disadvantage of somebody getting started. Are you looking off-market? Are you looking on the MLS? Do you have referral sources? How are you sourcing those opportunities?

[0:33:32] DL: Right now, as you know, these interest rates are very expensive. This market is very unique. But when we started out, we did a lot of driving, just driving ourselves around, and really looking for opportunities where a home may look vacant, or a home looks like it’s not being properly taken care of. Then from there, we will try to see if it was on the MLS. In the case of our first home, it was a pre-foreclosure. It was actually on the MLS as a pre-foreclosure. Then we use a realtor to help us with that.

Now, there are so many just groups of wholesalers and all of this that are out there. If you are trying to get started, there are ways to get in contact with other folks doing that. If you feel like, “Hey, I don’t really want to invest that much money into it” and you want to kind of get that experience and exposure, you can always ask people if you can just link up with them, and ask them what you can add to their system where their pain points are. That’s a great way for you to learn and a great opportunity for you if you’re not really at the point where you really want to invest a lot of money into it.

Right now, we’re currently working with realtors, especially since we’re looking in other markets. So we are working with realtors to try to find some of those properties. We don’t focus too heavily on off-market deals at this point in time. But I do know people do that, and they do that well. There are a lot of systems out there that can help you with that as well.

[0:35:06] TU: When done well, I think real estate can really add to, you mentioned, a pathway to financial independence that could potentially create wealth, lots of reasons to accelerate the financial plan, different tax advantages, et cetera. When not done well, it can be a hindrance on the financial plan, and there is a risk side of it. There’s obviously folks that have built systems and processes that have done this well. There’s individuals that maybe haven’t done as well, or analyzing deals properly, and not looking at the full breadth of what the numbers really are.

I sense that you guys really do have a system, a process. You’re looking at growing and scaling, which tells me the numbers are working. My question is, how do you view real estate investing, impacting and accelerating your personal financial planet. Is it a long-term strategy of building wealth, it’s part of the retirement plan, it’s a tax strategy? Is it short-term that the income from real estate you’re using towards other financial goals? How do you view the intersection of real estate with your financial plan?

[0:36:09] DL: Sure. That’s a good question. We like to kind of be right in the middle with that. What I mean by the middle, is by us holding those properties. They are a part of our long-term plan. But we also like to choose properties where we will cash flow pretty well, also. That’s a good balance there, because we know there are markets where you can really cash flow. But if you go to sell the home and 10 years, it’s going to be the same price you paid for it. You don’t really have a lot of appreciation on that front. That long-term game isn’t necessarily there. We try to find a good balance, and that’s one of the reasons we’re leaning towards short-term or midterm rentals. Because right now, in this market, especially, that’s really going to give us that that cash flow, but we can also have that appreciation.

We do have a long-term rental, and thankfully, it’s in a location where we’re doing very well on both fronts. But trying to get there right now in this market can be challenging. We’re looking towards that short-term, midterm. But we really like to have a balance, because we do want to use the real estate. Right now, we’re just using the money to purchase other real estate, not for our personal use. But we do want to get to a point where, “Hey, we could if we wanted to.” It depends heavily on our real estate income, and maybe transition into a lower workload on our W-2s or something to that effect. But we are in this for the long run, so we’re not trying to accumulate all of these rentals and get rich quick. That’s not really our strategy.

[0:37:45] TU: Yes. You’re not having to replace your W-2 income. I think that’s an interesting point, because for many individuals, there’s the initial strategy of, “How do I do this well, and then how do I scale the system, so I can invest more into other properties, more opportunities?” But then, there becomes a point of the portfolio where, depending on what else is going on, your retirement plan, et cetera, you might want to draw from that asset. There’s a strategy involved in that, and the tax optimization and so forth there as well.\

As we wrap up, I’m curious to hear your perspective. You’re on the other side of paying off your student loans, you’ve been out for over 10 years, you’ve got a good base in real estate investing. For all intents and purposes, you built a really strong financial foundation that you and your husband are going to grow upon for the next several decades and beyond. For individuals that were – just for you and I were a little over a decade ago, I think there’s both excitement and feelings of maybe some level of overwhelmed. Hearing a story of, you’ve been through that, you’re beginning to build wealth, you’re investing in real estate. What advice would you have for those individuals that are on the front end of this journey may be feeling overwhelmed, frustrated, confused with where they’re at with their finances?

[0:38:58] DL: Absolutely. That’s a great question. I would say, write down what’s important to you and your why. So really, write down what’s important to me, my values, and you can even project that out over the next 10 years, what do I want my life to look like? I think if you start with that, then you work backwards, and you look at what you’re facing right now. Then, you leverage the tools and all these podcasts like this one that are out there, and all the different strategies that you can take to reach your goals. If you do have a lot of student loan debt, and that debt is going to impede you from getting to those goals, then maybe that’s where you start. If you don’t have student loan debt, or it’s not a significant amount of student loan debt, but you do know in 10 years, you do want to have the option of working a W-2.

Then you may want to start with looking at different ways that you can invest your money, so you can make it work for you and make it accumulate even faster. That’s what I would do. I would kind of project out maybe 10 years. Because let’s be honest, a lot of new pharmacists are in roles, and they’re thinking, I don’t want to do this for 10 years, and that’s fair. Trust me, we understand. If that’s where you are, then definitely, think about where do you want to be, and what your goals are, and then work backwards. Look at what’s in front of you, and decide what the, what the priority is, and then start to educate yourself on different methods and strategies that you can use and get help. Get help, there’s no problem asking questions, meeting with a financial planner that understands your goals, and is willing to work with you to achieve your goal. That’s what I would recommend to someone who’s at the front end of this journey.

[0:40:49] TU: I love that. Great words of wisdom, and I’m so grateful for you coming on the show to share your journey. Congratulations on the debt-free journey. I have a sense you’re just getting warmed up here into the future. I appreciate you sharing that with our listeners, and I look forward to following your journey as well.

[0:41:05] DL: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I’ve enjoyed it and we will definitely keep you posted on the journey. I appreciate you and this platform.

[0:41:12] TU: Thank you so much.

[0:41:13] DL: Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:41:14] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog post, and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates publish. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 269: How to be Frugal During Inflation

Posted on August 18, 2022November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

How to be Frugal During Inflation

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Jen Smith, a personal finance expert and co-host of the Frugal Friends Podcast, discusses strategies to practice frugality in a high inflationary period, how she was able to pay off $78k in debt while battling unemployment, and strategies for listeners to explore whether you are looking to get organized, make additional income, or grow in your investing journey.

About Today’s Guest

Jen Smith is a personal finance expert and co-host of the top-rated Frugal Friends Podcast. Since paying off $78K of debt in two years Jen has been on a mission to help people spend in alignment with their values and live for today while saving for tomorrow. She’s the author of two best-selling books on controlling your spending and paying off debt, The No-Spend Challenge Guide & Pay Off Your Debt For Good.

Episode Summary

This week, Your Financial Pharmacist Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, sits down with Jen Smith, a personal finance expert and co-host of the top-rated Frugal Friends Podcast. After paying off $78K of debt in two years, Jen has been on a mission to help people spend in alignment with their values while saving for tomorrow. She is the author of two best-selling books on controlling spending and paying off debt, The No-Spend Challenge Guide & Pay Off Your Debt For Good.

Tim and Jen discuss strategies to practice frugality in a high inflationary period and how to spot and cut out unintentional spending. Jen shares her journey to paying off $78K in debt while battling unemployment and how getting on the same page with her partner, addressing her apprehension on debt repayment, and making intentional choices in her spending changed her mindset about money. Fighting lifestyle inflation with a “radical middle approach” worked for Jen, but she recommends each person find the debt repayment strategy that works for them. Jen closes with some frugality strategies for listeners to explore, including having exploratory conversations with your partner about financial goals, taking inventory of all of your accounts, planning out financial goals annually, and automating your money where possible to prevent unnecessary spending.

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:01] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here. And thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Jen Smith, a personal finance expert and cohost of the top-rated Frugal Friends podcast. Since paying off $78,000 of debt in two years, Jen has been on a mission to help people spend in alignment with their values and live for today while saving for tomorrow.

She’s the author of two bestselling books on controlling your spending and paying off debt. The No Spend Challenge Guide, and Pay Off Your Debt for Good. During the show, we discuss strategies to practice frugality in a high inflationary period, how she was able to pay off $78,000 in debt while battling unemployment, and strategies for listeners to explore, whether you’re looking to get organized, make additional income, or grow in your investing journey.

Before we jump into the episode, I’m excited to share that we’re doing our first ever virtual summit, The Employee to Entrepreneur: Building Blocks for Growing Your Business. The Employee to Entrepreneur Summit is designed for pharmacists who are planning or actively working on a side hustle or business idea.

This summit is going to be live via Zoom evenings of Tuesday, August 30th; and Wednesday, August 31st. Topics and activities include honing your mindset and uncapping your potential. How to grow a business from a position of financial strength? Retirement savings and tax optimization strategies as a small business owner, how to develop a system for achieving business financial goals, examples of pharmacists that are monetizing their clinical expertise, and much more.

And for those that register by August 23rd, we have three exciting bonuses. Those include a one-on-one implementation meeting with myself, or certified financial planner, Tim Baker. Access to a live goal-setting workshop that I’ll be hosting after the summit. And on-demand access to several bonus interviews, including evaluating health care, insurance options, marketing strategies, how to sell with confidence and more. Lots of information that we’re going to be sharing. You can learn more and register yourfinancialpharmacist.com/businesssummit. Again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/businessssummit.

Okay, let’s hear from today’s sponsor, Insuring Income. And then we’ll jump into my interview with author, blogger, and podcaster, Jen Smith.

[00:02:19] TU: This week’s podcast episode is brought to you by Insuring Income. Insuring Income is your source for all things term life insurance and own-occupation disability insurance. Insuring Income has a relationship with America’s top-rated term life insurance and disability insurance companies so pharmacists like you can easily find the best solutions for your personal situation.

To better serve you, Insuring Income reviews all applicable carriers in the marketplace for your desired coverage, supports clients in all 50 states, and makes sure all of your questions get answered. To get quotes and apply for term life or disability insurance, see sample contracts from disability carriers, or learn more about these topics, visit insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist. Again, that’s ensuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:03:10] TU: Jen, welcome to the show.

[00:03:12] JS: Hey, thanks for having me.

[00:03:13] TU: I’m really excited to have you here and to hear more about your debt payoff journey. And we’ll talk about that. But first, I’d love to learn more about your career background and the work that you’ve been doing with Frugal Friends and Modern Frugality.

[00:03:27] JS: Yeah. My frugality journey started back in 2015. I was about three years out of my master’s program. My degree is in acupuncture and oriental medicine. But it was a much more expensive degree than the income provided. So, I was very much ignoring my student debt. And I thought I was frugal, or I thought I was responsible because I would buy the generic products at the grocery store. But I would also turn around and like get Chipotle on the way home from the grocery store and go out and get Starbucks without thinking about it. There was definitely a disconnect between what I thought like financially responsible was and what it really is.

So, in 2015, I got married and my husband said that he wanted to pay off his student loans, and I wasn’t as motivated, but I felt guilty because my student loans were double what he had. When we got married, we started on this journey to pay off $78,000 of debt. And I realized pretty quickly that I couldn’t side hustle my way out of it. That’s really what I tried to do at first. And I got shingles two months into trying to side hustle my way. Yeah, from all this stress, and at the ripe age of 26.

That’s when I realized I needed to be more were intentional about my spending. Not just paying attention to like what’s generic or maybe what’s like $1 cheaper than something else. Very intentional about my overall spending. And it very much freed up so much of my life. I thought it was going to be full of deprivation. I was an adult. I didn’t want anybody to tell me what I could and couldn’t do, much less me telling me what I couldn’t do.

But I found that being intentional and spending on the things that I value versus things that I didn’t think about gave the sense of freedom. And it’s really what allowed us to pay off $78,000 in two years on really average. Because we never made more than $88,000 a year combined. And so, after that, a few years later, I met my cohost, Jill, for the Frugal Friends podcast. And she and her husband were thinking about starting a podcast. And her husband wanted to produce and edit it. And I was like, “I’ll never start a podcast, because I’m a writer.” I had my Modern Frugality blog. But if I did, it’d be called Frugal Friends, because I love alliteration. And they took that as a sign to just start producing it. And four and a half years later, 227 episodes in, we have never missed a week of recording. And it’s been like one of the greatest joys of my life.

[00:06:30] TU: I love that. And we’ll link in the show notes of the Frugal Friends podcast, as well as your blog, Modern Frugality.

My question, Jen, around frugality. When I talk with those that are within the first, let’s just say, 10, 15 years of their career, I feel like the words budget and frugality feel like no-no words. Just things that we don’t love to hear. You mentioned kind of that restrictive. It can have that restrictive feeling. And so, my question is how are you making frugality exciting? Obviously, you’ve built a community, you’ve built a brand around it. Of course, that is resonating on some level with folks. Why do you think there’s a movement around this concept of frugality?

[00:07:11] JS: Yeah, because until you know what’s enough for you, nothing will ever be enough. And so, you’ll keep on this rat race, on this treadmill, looking for what is going to fulfill you. And you’ll keep buying more and looking to make more. And more time with family. More of this. More of that. And like, unless you realize what you truly value, what’s enough in these other places so you can have more in places you care more about, nothing will ever be enough. And it will be this continual unfulfilling race, which is exhausting, which is why so many of us are exhausted, like, 10, 15 years out of college. Because we thought we’d have it more figured out. But it’s so rare to do the work upfront of figuring out like, “Who am I? What do I want? What do I want that’s maybe unconventional? And how do I create boundaries to pursue that more easily?” And then just to do the hard work of retraining your brain to pursue those things, versus immediate gratification.

[00:08:26] TU: As you think about the time period that we’re in, my family is feeling this firsthand. I mentioned to you before we hit record, I’ve got four young boys that are literally eating me out of the house right now. And we’re in this time period of not only high inflation, groceries are wild as well. And I’m sure this topic of, how can I practice frugality in a day when inflation is through the roof? Things are so expensive. What advice would you have for folks that are feeling the pinch month-to-month given the price of goods, of gasoline, of food, and everything that’s going on, but want to be intentional? That concept of frugality. Of being conscious with how we spend. Of making sure we’re living that rich life today while we’re taking care of our future self. That resonates, but there’s the reality of the here and now.

[00:09:09] JS: Yeah. Well, we all want to be more responsible with our money. We want to all have more money left at the end of the month saved. And I think when we start thinking about budgets, and saving, and cutting expenses, we always jump to the things that we love most. Like, when I first started paying off debt, I was thinking, “I don’t want to get on a budget. I don’t want to do this.” Because I don’t want to cut out having dinner with friends. Like, community is one of my core values. And so, that was the first thing I jumped to.

Usually, it’s the first thing you think of is the last thing that you should cut out. When you are pursuing frugality and intentional spending, you want to look through all of your transactions in your bank account, and find the things you’re spending money on that you don’t even realize you’re spending money on. So, maybe a subscription that raised in price, or a subscription you’re not using it all, or these trips to the gas station where you’re going inside and you get a candy bar or a soda with your gas purchase. It’s stuff like that you are doing mindlessly that you don’t really care about, but you kind of probably don’t even realize you’re doing it. It’s those things that we cut out first. And it’s easier to retrain your brain to cut those things out than it is the things you care most about.

[00:10:35] TU: Yeah. I think, too, what I found in my own journey, Jen, that resonates with what you’re talking about around conscious spending. And you gave that Chipotle example earlier, right? Which I think was a really good one coming back from the grocery store. Like, guilty as charged.

And I think that, to me, it’s about the dollars, yes, because maybe we can allocate those towards another part of the plan and be more intentional with them, especially if it’s unconscious spending. But it’s also about that feeling of like, “I’m in control. Like, I’m mindfully spending my money,” right? And I connect this to a lot of eating patterns and behaviors as well. But if we’re going to make a splurge financially, let’s do it consciously, right? Let’s make sure we’ve thought about it. We’ve prioritized it. We’ve considered it among the rest of our financial goals in our plan. And then we’re not unconsciously making those decisions.

And I think what resonates with me of what you’ve shared in some of your blogging materials is that the financial plan, as we think about as a continuum over our lives, is really this balance of living for today while saving for tomorrow. Right? We talked about inside YFP, is we need to be saving and taking care of our future selves. But we also need to live a rich life today. And so, there’s nothing wrong with us spending money. But we want to do it consciously. We want to do it intentionally. And I love what you’re sharing as it relates to that and make sure we’re being intentional in how we’re spending our money.

[00:11:53] JS: Yeah, absolutely. That’s the only way to keep it sustainable, because you are – You’re not promised tomorrow. But also, you’re not promised that you’re going to die when you’re 70. You have to plan past that. But you also want to make the most of your todays. And that’s why I think it’s so important that you sit down and figure out, like, “What do I value most? What are the things that I love the most I want to pursue? And what am I going to say no to so that I can pursue the things I love more?”

[00:12:28] TU: When we think about lifestyle inflation, I think this is something that is so common in society at large, but especially as I think about our profession of pharmacy. Often, folks will spend six to eight plus years in school to get their doctor pharmacy degree. They’ll walk out with 170,000 something dollars a debt. They might go directly into a good six figure income or perhaps have a stepping stone with a residency. And I think that jump in salary can really lead to significant lifestyle inflation. And obviously, we have high costs of just what is reality today with homes and everything else.

Are there one or two things that you typically see, and whether it’s your own journey or your community that, is often contributing towards that lifestyle inflation that folks should be on the lookout for?

[00:13:14] JS: I think it’s the feeling of I’ve accomplished so much. I’ve graduated with this degree. I’ve gotten this job. I have done the hard work. And now it’s time to reap the benefits. And that’s the mindset. I had the same mindset when I graduated. And I think there’s nothing wrong with saying like, “Yes, you deserve a higher quality of living than when you were like eating ramen or whatever in college.” Yes, absolutely. But it can be really beneficial to commit to at least two years after college to say, “Hey, I’m not going to live like I lived in college. But I’m not going to live in the full potential.” Because the earlier you start paying off your debt and investing, you essentially are saving money on buying your freedom. The earlier you start, the more time you have to compound your savings in your retirement accounts. And the less money you’re going to pay in interest on your debt.

The earlier you start that, you will purchase your freedom for a lot less money than if you “enjoy your accomplishments early”. And then 5,10 years down the road, you’re like, “Oh, crap. What have I done? What have I spent all this money on?” And even if you are 5, 10 years down the road, committing for two years, give or take, whatever your situation is, to really focus on getting money into your retirement accounts, getting at least higher interest debt paid off, is really going to benefit you in the long run.

[00:15:02] TU: And so, as relates to this mindset change, you mentioned in your journey that was something that you encountered as well. As you ultimately paid off $78,000 of debt in two years, what was the turning point for you? When did you start thinking, “Okay, Jen, we really need to make a plan to tackle this?” What changed?

[00:15:21] JS: It was my fiancé at the time, now husband, saying, “I don’t care what you’re going to do. I’m going to pay off my student loan.” He wasn’t going to force me. And so, I always say, if you have a spouse that’s not onboard, you cannot force them onboard. But he was going to take it upon himself to do his thing. And then he also encouraged me to think about, what are the things you want to do long term? And how much easier could they be? How much sooner can you accomplish them if we just spent a few years upfront getting rid of this debt?

He really challenged me to think about that, because there were dreams and goals that I had. And I was like, “Yeah, it would be a lot easier if I had the option of working. If I didn’t feel forced to have a nine to five job, but I could have flexibility in that, these things would be a lot easier.” And so, that inspired me, and convicted me, and challenged me to convert.

[00:16:26] TU: I love that. Because it’s the vision, right? Start with the vision and the dream. And then you back into the details and you get excited. But, folks, if you jump in your studentaid.gov profile and you start inventorying your loans, and you look at your private and your fed, like, it’s overwhelming, right? It’s very overwhelming, especially if folks have a couple $100,000 in debt. But if you can begin with, “Okay, deep breath. I’ve got this mound of student loan debt.” The past is what it is at this point. Let’s focus on what we can control going forward. And how can we begin to think about the vision for what we want for our lives, for our financial plan that ultimately will support the debt repayment strategy?

And so, for you and, at the time, your fiancé, now husband, what was the strategy? How did you do it? There’s the snowball approach that folks talked about. There’s the avalanche method. You mentioned a side hustle. Like, what was the actual strategy for how you’re able to pay off that debt?

[00:17:19] JS: Yeah. We took a little bit of everything. And that’s why, on our show, we’re big proponents of being in the radical middle. Everybody wants to take an extreme to where, being in the middle and choosing your own path is very radical. That’s really what we support. And so, we did a little bit of – We started with the debt avalanche. And then in my student loans, there were a lot of different – They were all the same interest rate. But there were a lot of different sizes. I don’t know. Some semesters, I was poor, I guess. And so, we would do the snowball within that. All of Travis’s interest rates were different. So, then we did the avalanche there.

And so, we kind of just did what worked for us. And we just took it month by month. And we thought it was going to take us five years to pay off our student loans. Because Travis was unemployed when we started. We were not at a great financial place when we started. I got 25 hours a week at work, max. I had to find like a side job and side hustles. Travis started with side hustles while he was looking for a full-time job. We were definitely not in a place where anyone would have recommended us start paying off our debt. But we did it anyway. And we just took it month by month. And every month, built on itself. We got a little bit more every month being put towards debt, until Travis got employed. And we were putting just my entire paycheck towards debt every month and just living on his.

And so, that was kind of the strategy. We just went little by little until we were putting one whole income to debt and living off the other. I mean, even if you’re in a single-income household, I mean, we were making $88,000 max. That was like 44 plus thousand per year. And we were living – It was a lot lower cost of living at that time. Gosh! It’s crazy to think about just seven years ago. But we were able to put a significant portion down on our debt because we chose maybe not the most ideal living situation. And we’re just really intentional about every penny we spent.

And we are not as intentional as we were. We’re not as intentional now as we were then, because we really had a goal that we were focusing on. And like I said, focus on one year, two years to see how much you can get out of the way. Don’t look at all six figures of your debt and say, “I can’t do this.” Because that’s what I did at first. I looked at my debt and I was like, “This is almost double what I make in a year. There’s no way. I’m just going to ignore it.”

But if I had taken just a year, a month by month or a year by year approach, I probably would have started sooner and just said, like”, “Okay, how much can I get this year?” And just made it my goal to like go hard. And then the next year, maybe, “Okay, how much can I get here in this year? But maybe I’m going to also focus on my IRA or my 401k and see how much I can get and add in here.” And if you do that, you focus on the month to month, quarter to quarter, year to year, you’ll make a bigger snowball effect than if you’re looking at it as a whole.

[00:20:44] TU: I really liked the concept of the radical middle. I like that a lot. Because I think that we see that and conversations I have with folks who have strong opinions on debt repayment, right? Versus investing or saving for the future. There’re strong opinions on how much should I put down on a home? And you kind of put people in opposite corners.

I think, for everyone, what we realized when you get to individual conversation, like, as my partner, Tim Baker often says in the podcast, like, it depends. It depends on what your financial situation is. How do you emotionally feel? Whether it’s about debt, or saving, investing for the future. What else is going on in relation to the financial plan? And then from there, we can craft a plan that we feel comfortable with. So, I think that’s a really, really good approach.

For folks that are listening, I’m thinking of spouses, significant others, partners that maybe aren’t on the same page with a given topic. You mentioned your journey and your fiancé, now husband, at the time was like, “Hey, I’m moving forward on this, whether you are or not.” And obviously, that left you is kind of making some decisions. And ultimately, you guys getting on the same page. But I think it’s not uncommon that you may have someone that’s on fire about a financial goal, or a budget, or debt repayment, or saving for the future. And someone else may or may not be in that same boat that that other person is. From your experience in your community, what advice would you have for folks that are really trying to, “Let’s get on the same page and make sure that we share in the vision going forward?”

[00:22:13] JS: Yeah. There’s a number of reasons why a partner might not want to get on board. I think the first thing to do is instead of trying to convince them in the way you were convinced, figure out why they’re apprehensive. Some people, it’s like, they don’t like being told what to do. Some people love spending money in the here and now. Tomorrow’s not promised. They want to spend it now. Some people just get anxiety about money. They don’t want to think about it at all. There are so many reasons. And I think your partner may not even know what the reason is.

And so, just sitting down and figuring out like what are our collective goals individually and together? What do you want? And how can we get there. And I think as you start to have more of these explorative conversations, the reasons for the disconnect will start to come up. Whether you’re talking about like their childhood, or they didn’t have a lot growing up, and they want to enjoy what they have now, because they worked really hard for it. All this stuff like that. It starts with exploratory conversations about the future. Trying to figure out what from their past is making them apprehensive to adopt frugality. Because nobody wants to feel deprived. Everybody wants to feel good and confident about the way they manage money even your partner who may not be on board with paying off debt. There’s just some kind of disconnect, where maybe what you’re saying or what you’re thinking is different from the reality that you want to put forward. But you can’t force them in typically with numbers, or force like a lot of the force thing that sometimes I hear about. It is really more of like a pull and a push.

[00:24:06] TU: Yeah, I think that’s great advice. And especially for folks that might be listening to the podcasts or more of that financial nerd camp, like, if you got energized by the calculator, like that doesn’t necessarily mean that your significant other is, right?

[00:24:22] JS: Yeah. They probably are not.

[00:24:23] TU: Probably are not. Yes, exactly. On the blog, Modern Frugality, I think you do a really nice job of identifying folks that may be in a few different areas based on their goals. So, folks that are feeling like, “Hey, I need to get organized.” Folks that are wanting to make some extra money, could be side hustles, businesses. And then folks that are wanting to get started with investing. And so, I want to focus on two of those here for a few moments.

And that first one of I need to get organized, is there a tip or two that you could share for individuals that are just feeling overwhelmed, and maybe that organization step would be really helpful for them to be able to clear some of the fog to then move forward with their financial goals? Where do you start with organization?

[00:25:05] JS: Yeah. The first step is to figure out all of your accounts, your debts, everything. And you can do that by getting your free credit report either at freecreditreport.com or something like Credit Karma. And this is the report. Not the score. We’re not as concerned with the score right now. But your credit report will have a list of all of your debts, all the accounts you have open, and the amounts, like balances for each. If you look at that, and it’s not there, then it’s not there. It’s not associated with your social security number.

And so, when you look at that, it really gives you a whole picture of, “Okay, I am this much in debt. I have this much in my savings. This is where I’m at.” And so, it’s nine times out of 10 not as scary as you think. And some people just don’t want to gather everything because they don’t know where to find it. It’s like, “Where can I find everything?” It’s in your credit report.

And then next is just to look at your transactions. So then go to those checking and savings accounts and look at your transactions from probably the last three months. Which ones did you love and you feel good about? Which ones do you not remember making? The ones that you did not remember making or did not feel good about, those are the ones we cut out first. And you write down on a piece of paper, “I will no longer spend money here or on this for this reason.” And then we don’t spend money on those things anymore. And the things that aren’t on that list, you can spend money on without guilt.

And then as you go and you start to think, “Okay, well, this wasn’t on the list before. But I think I might be able to add it. Or maybe this was on the list.” And actually, do enjoy this for reasons I wasn’t thinking about earlier, we take it off the list.

But as you go, and you make baby steps towards intentional spending, we don’t start with those things that we love the most. We start with the things we don’t care about. And that’s how we make these steps towards financial freedom and intentionality.

[00:27:13] TU: As I’m going through this exercise, if I identify there’s maybe more unconscious spending that I would like there to be, what are some strategies that might help me bring some more awareness and consciousness to that spend? You’ve identified one. I think, if I’m hearing correctly, I’m writing these down, journaling them. Other people talk about using cash for a small period of time, which is not super convenient in 2022. Are there other strategies that you have found personally or you see in your community that helps increase the awareness and the conscious level to spending?

[00:27:47] JS: Yeah. I talked about baby steps. But actually, my favorite way to like shortcut this is to do a no spend challenge, which is the opposite of baby step. But it’s like short term. I would take a month. And challenge yourself to not spend any money on discretionary purchases. We’re still paying bills. We’re still paying mortgage. We’re still putting gas in the car to get to work. But it’s the discretionary things. It’s everything else.

In the grocery store, if it’s not in the list, we don’t buy it. It’s meal planning for everything. And you can even schedule like one or two meals out during the month. But if they’re not scheduled, they don’t happen. It’s saying no to – For like an actual no spend challenge, I would say no. When I was doing them, like no eating out, no coffee. Just anything discretionary. Because it helps when you are at the end of the day, and you’ve made good decisions all day. And you get to five o’clock and your brain is tired. It is done making good decisions. It’s done making the right decision. And that’s when you start you get decision fatigue, and you start to make the wrong decision when you have the option. When you’re on a no spend challenge the answer is always no. And so, that’s one – It’s decisions you don’t have to make, because you’re challenging yourself to say no to everything.

And I know some people will try and do pantry challenges while they’re on a no spend challenge. Only eating from their pantry and fridge and freezer during that month.

[00:29:20] TU: Ah! Get creative. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:22] JS: Right? I never carried enough in my fridge and freezer, nor have I ever had a full pantry to do that. But if you feel like you’re a little overstocked in your kitchen, another great way to not spend money. But once you do this for a month, you will get a really eye-opening view of what you care most about. What things you don’t even realize that you are giving up? Things you didn’t care about.

And so, you can go forward after the challenge to say, “Okay, these are the things I’m going to spend on without guilt. These are the things I’m giving up. Saying no to.” And it really just fast track that process.

[00:30:02] TU: One of the things that you’ve written about that we talk a lot about on our show is the concept of automation. And I’ll link in the show notes. We talked about this on episode 57, way back when, in the power of automating your financial plan. And you had a blog post that we’ll link to as well in the show notes on automate your money. Can you tell us about, from your perspective, what does automation mean when it comes to the financial plan? And why is it so valuable to help someone in achieving their financial goals?

[00:30:29] JS: Yeah. Well, it kind of comes back to the decision fatigue. Again, when you have to make the decision to pay a bill, you may forget, because you may have made too many decisions, and it just slipped your mind. Or the decision to put money into your 401 (k) or IRA, you may not put as much in when you’re in the moment when something just put you over budget or you had like a surprise expense from your kid, then you tend to invest less or put less towards debt.

We want to take that decision off the table. Make your spending plan for the year. Figure out how much you can feasibly afford to invest or pay off debt every month, and just automate it. It’s one less thing that you have to worry about. You can automate it for soon after you get paid. It’s very easy if it’s like first 15th on Fridays. I mean, you can sometimes change when your bills are paid so they line up better with your payday. But sometimes it’s just easier to get that money out of sight out of mind. For someone like me, I used to spend every penny that was in my account if I saw it. Now, everything leaves the account and goes to savings, investing or mortgage before I have the opportunity to spend it. So, then I look at my account and I’m like, “Oh, cool. I can spend all this money if I want. Or I don’t have to. Whatever.” But yeah, automating just takes that decision off the table. And it just – I mean, aside from allowing us to be lazy, who doesn’t want to be lazy when it comes to money? It’s so much easier to not have to think about it. But even when it comes down to the decisions of how much we put towards debt and how much we invest, much easier to make a neutral decision via a plan than an emotional decision in the moment.

[00:32:26] TU: Absolutely. One of things I love about automation is it forces you to be intentional, right? We talked about that earlier. But if you’re going to be proactively planning and setting up some of these systems around automation, we’ve got to define the goals. We’re already looking at the budget and expenses. We’re those funds towards different buckets and the goals that we’ve identified. It really forces our hand to make sure that we’re being intentional, and obviously increasing the amount of conscious spending that we’re doing.

Jen, this has been great. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on the show. Where is the best place that our listeners can go to find you and to connect with you further?

[00:33:00] JS: Well, wherever you’re listening to this podcast, you can find Frugal Friends podcast. We release a new episode every Tuesday and Friday. And we also have an ebook with over 200 ways to save money. And that’s at frugalfriendspodcast.com/ebook. Yeah. And then we talk more about intentional spending on the show. So, it’s a full circle.

[00:33:22] TU: Thank you so much, and I appreciate it.

[00:33:24] JS: Yeah, thanks for having me.

[00:33:26] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, let’s hear an important message from our sponsor, Insuring Income. If you are in the market to add own-occupation disability insurance, term life insurance, or both, Insuring Income would love to be a resource. Insuring Income has relationships with all of the high-quality disability insurance and life insurance carriers you should be considering and can help you design coverage to best protect you and your family.

Head over to insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist. Or click on the link in the show notes to request quotes, ask a question, or start down your own path of learning more about this necessary protection.

[OUTRO]

[00:34:02] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archive newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacists, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates publish. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more info information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacists.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 264: How a 2022 PharmD Grad Left School Debt Free

Posted on July 14, 2022November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

How a 2022 PharmD Grad Left School Debt Free

Dr. Alexis Miller talks about graduating from pharmacy school debt-free because of her service to our country, by joining the Army in 2017. She shares why she decided to join the Army while in pharmacy school, the ins and outs of the GI Bill and tuition assistance, and how she plans to apply her pharmacy knowledge to her role in the Army.

About Today’s Guest

Alexis Miller, PharmD recently received her Doctor of Pharmacy degree from Ohio Northern University and is a postgraduate resident at Steward Carney Hospital in Dorchester, MA. Alexis is originally from Wayne, OH, and currently resides in Boston, MA with her fiance, Curtis, and their golden retriever, Hudson.

Alexis enlisted in the Ohio Army National Guard in 2017 for the tuition benefits. Because of the Army, she obtained her Doctor of Pharmacy completely debt-free. In the Army, Alexis is a motor transport operator and retention NCO (non-commissioned officer). Alexis holds the rank of Staff Sergeant.

Alexis is looking forward to connecting with the YFP community and helping young pharmacists and pharmacy students utilize another option to minimize student debt and maximize financial freedom.

Episode Summary

This week, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, is joined by Dr. Alexis Miller, a 2022 graduate of Ohio Northern University, who discusses her recent graduation from pharmacy school debt-free because of her service to our country by joining the Army in 2017. In this episode, Alexis explains her incredible story and motivation for joining the Army when selling cows didn’t cover her education cost. Alexis shares her feelings about graduating debt-free, her plans to complete her six-year commitment to the Army, and her unique pathway in transitioning from a student to a new practitioner as a doctor/truck driver. Alexis dives into the ins and outs of the GI Bill and tuition assistance and how she was able to piece together various forms of funding and scholarships to get her annual education payments to roughly $1,000 annually. She provides insight into working with recruiters and why choosing a recruiter who cares about you and your goals is incredibly important. As a ‘type A’ personality, Alexis speaks on her desire to seek perfection while juggling her Army commitment as a pharmacy student and how her mindset shift from being the best to doing her best made all of the difference in her educational experience.

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here. And thank you for listening to the YFP podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I had a chance to welcome a 2022 graduate of Ohio Northern University, Dr. Alexis Miller, to talk about her journey graduating from pharmacy school debt-free not just from scholarships or from selling her cows. Yes, you heard me right. From selling her cows. But also, because of her service to our country by joining the Army in 2017.

Some of my favorite moments from the show include hearing Alexis talk about why she decided to make the decision to join the army while in pharmacy school. The ins and outs of the GI Bill and Tuition Assistance, and what she learned about herself during the journey of completing pharmacy school and joining the army, and why she realized that bare minimum is not in her DNA.

Now, before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 households in 40 plus states. YFP planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized to the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yftplanning.com. Whether or not YFP planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for, you know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Dr. Alexis Miller.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:35] TU: Alexis, welcome to the show.

[00:01:36] AM: Hello. It’s so exciting to be here today.

[00:01:39] TU: Well, in the intro I put together for the show, I referenced you were a 2022 grad of Ohio Northern University. Go! Polar bears. And now, officially Dr. Alexis Miller. How does it feel to finally be done with pharmacy school?

[00:01:53] AM: I think the moment that you graduate and you realize you’re done, it’s absolutely surreal, because you’ve spent the last, really, 20 some years of your life being a student. And that’s all you’ve been used to. At that point you’re like, “Wow! Like, I am done.” And quite frankly, I don’t necessarily know how to pursue the next step like. I don’t know what awaits me. But I guess I’m ready for the world.

[00:02:18] TU: I love that. And I’m excited to dig into your story and share how you were able to graduate debt-free from Ohio Northern University this year. And we often talk on this show about debt repayment strategies. Or we’ve shared debt-free journeys where folks have really worked hard or through forgiveness programs to get to the point of having no more student loan debt. This is different because you avoided it all together. And we’re going to talk about how are you able to do that through the journey that you’ve taken.

You posted this on LinkedIn a couple months ago. That post went viral. I think maybe surprised you a little bit as well. Had almost 30,000 reactions. And excited to share your story with the YFP community. But before we get into that story, tell me a little bit more about your interest in pharmacy and what ultimately drew you into the profession.

[00:03:05] AM: I always like to say it wasn’t necessarily why I joined pharmacy. Just because with Ohio Northern, it is a direct admit program. You’re joining as you are still a high school senior. I was 17-years-old and really didn’t have any idea of what I was going to do with my life or really what I necessarily wanted. But I always say it’s really what made you stay in pharmacy, especially in a direct admit program like that. You have so many opportunities as you’re going through to change your major. Get out. Take a whole completely new path.

And I always like to say, it was a lot of the people that I encountered between doing experiential hours or my internships and even the people that I just went to school with. I realized like those were the kind of people that I wanted to work with for the rest of my life. And those were the kind of people that I wanted to impact. And that was the thing that I couldn’t give up. Even when pharmacy school got to be at the point where I didn’t know if it was for me anymore, it was always the people that were really telling me I could do this every day.

[00:04:05] TU: I love that. One of the things I like to talk about is that your why and your purpose has to be stronger than your motivation. Because your motivation can wax or wane, right? You live that firsthand in pharmacy school. There are some tough seasons. But if you’ve got a strong purpose and why of what you’re doing and why you’re doing that, I think that can really carry through. That’s really cool to hear that.

Alexis, I’m going to share your post. What you wrote on LinkedIn that really garnered so much attention. And then I’m going to ask you kind of how you got to the decision that you did. You said, “In September 2017, I decided the only way for me to complete my pharmacy degree without being in debt was to join the army. I joked that I was “young and dumb” signing my name on the dotted line, committing myself as a pharmacy student to basic training and six years as a truck driver. I was enticed by the idea of the GI Bill and Tuition Assistance. And my original plan was doing the bare minimum to get my degree paid for. Getting in, getting paid, and getting out. Today, I pinned staff sergeant at only four and a half years in the Army.”

First of all, congratulations. Really appreciate your commitment and your service. My question is I think this thought maybe has crossed other folks’ mind especially in the health professions in a pharmacy. But few I think actually make the decision to move forward. How did you come about this opportunity? And why did you ultimately make the decision to go forward?

[00:05:27] AM: When I started my freshman year throughout high school and summers and everything else, I came from a farm. I was selling livestock. I was selling animals. And I was selling crops. And I had this dream that, with my cows, I was going to pay for my school. But it came down to freshman year, after one year of tuition, I had about a thousand dollars left and five more years of school. And I realized that my goal of graduating debt-free, if I were just trying to do it on cows, really wasn’t going to work anymore.

And I was already paying for school with cows. It was already a very abnormal decision. I just kind of looked around, chopped around of like how can I get this paid for now? And maybe in the generation of instant gratification, the first thing that I found was the Army. And I ended up in a recruiter’s office and was talking about the opportunities, the options, and essentially how much I could make out of it. And, of course, the idea is very scary. I kind of got myself in a position where it’s like I have to commit now or I’m going to change my mind. I just immediately, “Let’s commit to the bit. Let’s go.”

[00:06:32] TU: Alexis, would this have been – I’m trying to think 2017. Would this have been your P2 year? You’re still like in pre-pharmacy?

[00:06:39] AM: Yes.

[00:06:39] TU: Okay. I think back to my time in academia. And if a student would have come to me – I did a lot of career counseling with students. If a student would have come to me and said, “Hey, Tim, I want to join the Army.” I’d have been like, “Uh, I don’t know how to help you. But let me find out.” And I don’t think this is an area that we talk enough about from a career development opportunity standpoint. How did you navigate finding that information?

Because I think for others that are listening that are thinking, “Hey, I didn’t think about this pathway. Maybe it’s something I consider.” Where could one go? Tell us more about how you’re able to navigate this opportunity.

[00:07:12] AM: A lot of it myself where I started was with Google of like what recruiters are in my area. Who can I talk to? In terms of my family, I don’t have any military background in my family. And especially at school – And Ohio [inaudible 00:07:25] private school as well. I knew I wasn’t going to get as much assistance there.

And especially when recruiters came in to talk to students in high school, I ignored them. I didn’t think that was an opportunity, a path that I was ever going to take. I had to go back to the route that I ignored, and I went back to finding recruiters. And I found one nearby. And I ended up switching a couple times trying to figure out who I really wanted to be with. That’s a big thing, too, for people who, pharmacy student, are looking at that path. Sometimes recruiters are going to sell you on anything. They’re looking to increase their numbers. They’re looking for that next bullet point. And you are part of that bullet point, whereas others really do care. And that is very important that you just don’t jump on the first hook. The first bait that comes to you. It’s important to look for somebody who actually is there because they want to be there.

And so, that was me just kind of looking around. And I finally found one person who he was adamant, like, “You’re here for school money and you want this deal. And that’s it.” That was really awesome when I found – My recruiter at the time, his name was Sergeant [inaudible 00:08:31]. He’s now retired and rides his Harley every day. He’s living a great life.

But when I talked to him, he would frequently take his time, come down to Ohio Northern, which was an hour drive from where he was. And that’s my biggest tip, is find a recruiter. But make sure it’s one who really cares about you. Or as well as somebody who’s already done it. They can tell you the ins and outs, the good, the bad, the ugly. And those two are your best avenues to kind of get that information. For me, I had Google and Sergeant [inaudible 00:09:02]. That was the only way I was able to get my information.

[00:09:07] TU: That’s great, Alexis. That was one of my hopes of bringing you on the show, was to share and celebrate your story. But also, I suspect for many that are listening, perhaps some that are even currently in school, maybe not thinking of this as an opportunity. And I didn’t know for example that it really matters what recruiter you talked to. I kind of had this impression, all information is equal and consistent. Just being able to have someone like yourself to reach out to, to ask questions, to point in the right direction I think can be really helpful.

You’ve already achieved, Alexis, two firsts on the YFP podcast. One, being that we’ve never had anybody that has sold cows to go to pharmacy school. That’s a first. And only folks that maybe grew up in our area will understand that. And second, being you’re the first person we’ve had on the show that has combined – That at least we featured combine this pathway in the army with being able to graduate from debt-free. So, really, really excited for you.

Were there other branches of the military that you were considering? I know, often, when I talk about being able to consider military pharmacist positions and how that relates to student loan debt, I kind of talk broadly about positions. Here, we’re talking specifically about a role in the army. Talk to us about was this an obvious choice? Or were there other branches in the military you were considering?

[00:10:22] AM: The two options that offered the National Guard near me to be able to pay for school in the manor were the Air Force and the Army. And I’m going to be honest, I never once looked at the Air Force. Hindsight, when we are in the field and we haven’t showered, and it’s hot, and we’re miserable. Sometimes I think maybe I should have looked at the Air Force. But I definitely will say, when I was 17 and looking for that path, maybe my ego got the best of me and I wanted to be in the Army instead of the Air Force. Whereas, in our world, we called the Air Force the chair force. And I look at that now and I’m like, “That’s so stupid.” Like, why did we think that way? And why did I think – But I wouldn’t take anything back. But that was – I looked at the Army simply because of its reputation and the ego behind it. I hate saying that. But it really is the reason why.

[00:11:15] TU: Tell us more about the specifics of joining the army and how that allowed you to graduate debt-free. I’m thinking here about like the requirements of service, the time commitment. How the stipends work or the tuition reimbursement? Tell us more about the ins and outs of how that service in the Army ultimately allowed you to graduate from Ohio Northern. Great school. I’m a little bit biased. But a great school. And to do that debt-free.

[00:11:40] AM: The way it begins when you first join, in order to get the four years for school credit, it’s good at any – At least in Ohio, it’s good at any public school in the state. And then it will do the max public school amount going to any private school. It does fluctuate year by year of what you can get. But in order to get that four years theoretically for your undergrad, you have to commit six years. And that six years is the moment you sign the dotted line until six years later.

Even when you’re not completely doing a whole lot and you’re still waiting to go to basic training, that still counts towards your time in. I had about, I want to say, seven months like that, that still counted towards my six years. But I really wasn’t doing what I’m doing now.

With that, with the six years, you’re able to get 13,000 about per year through your scholarship. Mine fluctuated sometimes a little over, a little under. But on average, I was getting 13,000 for four years sent automatically to my school. If you were at a public school, per se, it would be entirely covered. They cover the max there.

And then, because I was a full-time student, I automatically was able to get the GI Bill. My GI bill was about 400 per month. And then following the GI Bill, you had your drill pay. Drill pay is like when you go in every single month and you do your work. It could be anywhere from two days, to four days, to – I want to say my longest was a week. While you’re doing it, it’s a little tough. But the paychecks are really nice when you get it.

But anyway, drill pay where I was at, average ranking, it depends where you’re at. Your rank and how long you’ve been there. But you can expect to make anywhere between 300 to 600, potentially more, on your drill pay per month. And then once a year you do two weeks typically out of the summer. And that’s your annual training. And on annual training, you can expect to get about 1500. In total, in the one year that you’re there between your scholarship, your GI Bill – Your GI Bill you just get for being a full-time student. You do not have to do anything for the GI Bill except call the VA and say, “I’m a full-time student. And this is my school.”

And then drill pay and annual training pay combined, you can make about 23,000 per year just from being on that. And then as well, wherever you’re at, any school regardless, you get to tack any other scholarships you receive on top of that.

[00:14:07] TU: Oh, wow!

[00:14:08] AM: That’s why, at Ohio Northern, I was able to do really well, because I was able to tack on – Especially during undergrad, my 19,000 a year that I got from ONU to that 23 to where suddenly I was paying minimal. Less than a thousand dollars per year in my first four years of undergrad to go to school.

[00:14:26] TU: Wow! And so, therefore, the cows could handle the rest of that, right? We could get down to the zero balance.

[00:14:32] AM: Yes. The cows, the internships, the on-campus job, that was easy to manage.

[00:14:38] TU: How were you – When I hear you say on-campus jobs, you obviously had requirements here through the Army. When I was in pharmacy school, granted you’re obviously more mature than I was at the time, but I felt like it was all in on time and effort just to be able to get through pharmacy school and to do that well. Here, you’ve got the commitment piece in the Army. You mentioned other on-campus work requirements. I’m guessing you were involved in other things as well. Talk to us about how the balance of this works. And were you ultimately able to feel like you were going through pharmacy school and completing that well while also filling your other service obligations?

[00:15:12] AM: There were different times, especially I want to say my third year was when I really started to experience a few of the challenges of the service obligation combined with pharmacy school. Everything else seemed, especially on campus, with sports, and organizations, and work, it all just seemed to bend to the whim of pharmacy school.

Pharmacy school always trumped that. It never seemed to get in the way. But with the military, it’s kind of like taxes. You don’t get to say no, even if it’s a bit of a challenge. There were days starting in my third year when school started getting more intense. And I started picking up more rank in the military that I could be going out of school for a week at a time.

There was a point when I was gone for almost 10 days and then you come back and you’re like, “Hi! What happened? I’ve been gone.” And your inbox is full. People are emailing you, “Where are you?” And you’re like, “I didn’t even have a phone for the last 10 days.” Like, I don’t know what’s going on. Those were the really challenging times.

And just kind of missing things of like rearranging things with professors of like, “Hey, the exam is Friday. I’m leaving Tuesday. And I won’t be back until next Tuesday.” It was a lot of taking – My third year, I took everything early. I think every quiz, every exam, it was like, “Oh, I’m here.” Five o’clock at night to take my quiz three days before everybody else.

It was kind of at that point when I realized I didn’t necessarily have to be at the same point as everybody else. And I know, like, especially with type A personalities, as pharmacists and pharmacy students, you really get caught in that pressure of that person A did this. And person A was able to do all these other things. And person B got an A in this class and an A. And I wasn’t going to be a 4.0 student. And that was the hardest pill for me to swallow, was that I couldn’t be all these other things because I had this one nagging thing that a lot of other people didn’t necessarily have. That was the hardest part, is to kind of realize you can’t compare. And I really think we get caught in that comparison game.

And so, that was when I realized, like, “I’m not going to be a 4.0 student anymore. I have to make it through, do my best. And as long as I put in all the effort that I could put in, use all the energy that I had.” I couldn’t be ashamed of myself at the end of the day. As long as the effort I know I couldn’t have put in any more, I couldn’t be upset with that.

[00:17:37] TU: Yeah. And, Alexis, arguably more important than your grades is what you learned about yourself through this journey. And I think I’ve come to appreciate that more and more since being out of pharmacy school where in that moment, as you mentioned, especially I think in a very competitive program, it’s very easy to draw that pure comparison. It’s very easy to get caught up in that. But big picture, I’m hearing you talk and talk about your journey. And I can tell there’s a lot of self-discovery through that journey. And one thing I wanted to hit on specifically is in the post you put on LinkedIn, you had mentioned that you were enticed by the idea of the GI Bill and Tuition Assistance. With your original plan is that you’re going to do the bare minimum. Get your degree paid for. Get in. Get paid. Get out. But then you would later say good things come to those who put in the work. Bare minimum is not the kind of person I am or will be. That’s a significant jump from where you started mindset-wise to where you kind of ended. Tell me more about that and what you learned about yourself during the journey.

[00:18:33] AM: I guess when I started, I first looked at strictly money. And that’s all it was about. It was only about money. I felt like some people go through the military and they’re like, “Oh, I love my country.” I felt like I didn’t have a patriotic bone in my body. I just wanted that money to get my pharm beat.

There was no like family history. There was no massive drive. Like, no bald eagles cried when I woke up. It was money. Honestly, whether you put in the max effort or the minimum effort, you’re still going to get the same amount of money in the end. And that’s where I was looking at it and was like, “Okay, I don’t have to do anything spectacular.” I just have to get in, do the bare minimum, get out. Show up one week in a month, I don’t have to do anything extra, and also get paid.

But then the more that I was there – I hate saying it. But it’s always the toxic leaders that you seem to learn a lot from. The best leaders and the toxic leaders. And I saw in that environment there were some that were absolutely phenomenal people. And they busted their tail every single weekend we were there. And even in the times outside, like, they just really cared about people. They really cared about their small part-time job. But then there were other people who I could tell had only received their leadership roles and promotions because they’d been there long enough and they were running out of people to promote. And that, to me, I was like, “Wow! Like, there are people like you here taking care of soldiers, young individuals, and you’re trying to mold their minds. And this is how you’re acting.” And I just felt like that wasn’t – It wasn’t a strong environment to be in. But I saw that there were enough people that really did care. I was like, “I want to be like those people.”

And I always like to tell myself that I’m going to just show up. And sure, I’ll do the minimum. That’ll be fine. I never end up doing that. I should have known I was not going to do the minimum. But basically, I always wanted to help out the people who were doing so much.

And then it came down to a lucky break. There was an extra spot to hit a promotion. And I had all of my stuff turned in. I was just waiting for a slot to come up. And out of 150 some people, I was the only one in the position waiting for it. I was able to nav my first promotion, my E5 sergeant, at two and a half years. And that, again, is not very common either.

And then I just kind of took the same steps into the next role. And as I always like to kind of just tell my own soldiers, you have to stay hungry. Because there’s people around you that aren’t. You’re getting out of this what you put in. And there are people who want to improve themselves. But then there are people here who they don’t care. And you can easily go around those people. You should want to be better than those people, because that’s the legacy you’re going to leave. When you leave here, people are not going to remember who you were, or they’re going to remember who you were. Probably not have very good things to say about you. And that’s where you kind of have to worry about the impact and the impression you’re leaving. I’m sorry. That was a very long-winded answer.

[00:21:33] TU: No. That was fantastic. And the thought that came to mind as you were speaking there, Alexis, is that we stand on the shoulders of the folks that have provided us opportunities and led before us. And so, you talked about great leadership and not so great leadership, which obviously we can learn from. And now, you’ve got an opportunity to pay it forward with your soldiers. But also, to the folks that are listening, others in our profession, that I think are certainly going to look up to you and the work that you’ve been doing. I appreciate you sharing that.

If I’m doing my math right, you mentioned six years of a commitment from signing the dotted line. A little over four and a half years in, you were pinned staff sergeant. You mentioned to me before the show started that you’re getting ready to make a move from Ohio to Boston. Tell me, we got a little over a year left in your six-year commitment, and I’m trying to kind of understand, like, what is the career path? What’s the trajectory as you think about this transition from student to new practitioner? And where the intersection of pharmacy and the work that you’re doing in the army? Tell us more about what lies ahead.

[00:22:33] TU: The way I arrange my contract and the choices that I made, granted I am a doctor. And, theoretically, people once they get a bachelor’s degree, master’s degree, doctorate, will advance into the officer realm. But because of the choices that I had made earlier on and chose to stay enlisted, I will be a doctor and a truck driver all at the same time. And some people think that’s a little bit odd of a choice. But for me, I wanted that flexibility. I only have that year and a half left. But had I chosen to go an officer route, I would have had a bit more of a commitment.

And I wasn’t sure where I wanted to be tied with it. And I do have the option. If I really wanted the commission, I most definitely could. I could drop my packet, the packet to go commission and go off of the route. And I could be in in the next year. But I’m not committing that time yet just because I don’t know where – Especially with residency, and potentially a PGY2, and really where life is going, I don’t necessarily know where that’s always going to fit in. I have stayed enlisted to give myself that flexibility to get in and get out.

But since I started in Ohio, and that’s where my first unit was, and I am moving to Massachusetts, I have met phenomenal people who will live in a different state and then fly back to their drill weekends. I knew a man from Arkansas and he would come up once a month to Toledo where we would drill and work. I’m not that tough as an individual. I don’t want to catch a flight. I don’t want to deal with it. I ended up transferring to a unit in Massachusetts. And I’m in the process of doing that now. You pretty much fill out a bunch of paperwork and transfer.

I’m in that process of waiting to get picked up in Massachusetts. And I’ll stay there until I leave. And right now, I don’t have any intentions of following that commitment past six years, just because I don’t know where my career will take me. But, really, I don’t think the door has closed yet. I think I will probably come back as an officer once I have a more stable location and more stable job other than a residency. But for now, we’re going to put it on pause.

[00:24:41] TU: And so, if I’m following you correctly, Alexis, you’ll be doing residency while you’re continuing out the six years of the commitment. Is that correct?

[00:24:50] AM: Yes. I will be doing my residency as well as finishing my commitment out in Massachusetts.

[00:24:54] TU: Awesome. I love that. I think – Not I think. I know your journey is going to be an inspiration to so many. And as I shared with you before we hit record, this is a topic we don’t talk often enough about of the intersection, I think, between the health services and opportunities in the military and to serve our country. And obviously, how that can intersect with one’s financial plan here as we talk about being able to graduate debt-free. And I’m confident that several people are going to listen to this and say, “Hmm, I hadn’t really thought about that. But I don’t know where to get started.”

And so, my question for you is – I don’t want your email to get inundated necessarily. But for folks that want to follow you and your journey, where is the best place that they can go to do that?

[00:25:35] AM: They can obviously go ahead and connect with me on LinkedIn. My LinkedIn – My name is Alexis Miller. Kind of hard to find. But if you go to the linkedin.com/amillerx. It’s a play on amillerrx, no one gets it. I thought it was funny. No one else did. But that’s where you can find that.

And then of course, I will give out my email. I don’t get too many emails. It is [email protected]. I’m not always the fastest on my email. But I will try to get back as soon as possible.

[00:26:07] TU: Awesome. We will link to both of those in the show notes. And I’m so grateful for your time. Again, thank you for your service. Thank you for taking the time to share your story with our community. And Dr. Alexis Miller, a staff sergeant, really appreciate your time and the contributions you’ve made here. Thank you so much.

[00:26:28] AM: Thank you so much for having me.

[OUTRO]

[00:26:29] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder, that the content on this show is provided you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 262: How Two Pharmacists Paid Off $250k of Student Loan Debt

Posted on June 30, 2022November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

How Two Pharmacists Paid Off $250k of Student Loan Debt

Kristen & Nate Hedrick to discuss their journey in paying off $250k of student loan debt, their motivation and why for aggressively paying off the debt, and the role a side hustle and real estate investing played to help them achieve their goal.

About Today’s Guests

Episode Summary

Key Points From This Episode

Kristen’s background, how she ended up in pharmacy, and what she’s doing now.
What their student loan debt looked like at its peak.
How student debt can creep up and surprise you.
The initial feelings the couple had towards their debt and their plans to pay it off.
What motivated our guests to come up with an aggressive plan for paying back their debt.
How a life-changing event (and a book) in 2016 changed everything.
The global pandemic as a moment of inspiration.
What they had to change in their lives to be able to make the monthly repayments.
Paying off debt now versus investing for the future.
The way the couple used ‘double motivation’ to reconcile an age-old debate.
How our guests were able to raise a child, invest, and pay off a huge debt at the same time.
Nate’s decision to pursue real estate investing and what that meant for their debt repayments.
The approach the couple has taken to make real estate investing work for their family.
Other strategies that helped to pay off the debt aside from cutting expenses and real estate investments.
The benefits of receiving objective, third-party advice.
What life is like now after paying off their massive debt.
How paying off the debt helped Nate make an important career decision.
Kristen’s advice for the pharmacist struggling with debt.
Nate’s parting words of wisdom.

Highlights

“I had no plan early on until we developed the ‘why’, which was getting our financial house in order so that we could live the way that we wanted to.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:06:23]

“The expenses were the catalyst, and then it was the extra income side of the equation that really boosted everything to actually make it possible.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:13:37]

“One great thing about real estate investing is even if something happens, you still own a building.” — Kristen Hedrick, PharmD, BCACP [0:22:00]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Nate and Kristen Hedrick to learn how and why they aggressively paid off $250,000 in student loan debt.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:23.4] TU: Kristen and Nate, welcomed to the show.

[0:01:24.7] NH: Hey Tim, good to be here.

[0:01:26.1] KH: Hi.

So Nate, tell us about the student loan debt at its peak? What were you guys working with and then, from there, we’ll get into more of some of the motivation and journey of paying it off.

So, that was the worst that it got and, that same month, for what it’s worth, we had a negative net worth of $306,000, so we had about 10k to our name and a bunch of debt to add on to that.

[0:04:35.7] TU: You’re dating yourself Nate, when you talk about quarters by the way. So that ain’t a thing anymore.

[0:04:40.7] NH: Old school, how I work.

So, Nate, what happened in 2016 that was really a motivation to say, “Hey, we’ve got to do something different?”

So, if you go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com, you click on home buying, you’ll see a section for find an agent and from there, you can get connected with Nate further.

You still have something physical there that you could sell and we just—we always knew we wanted it to be something to supplement with one of our investments.

[0:22:13.4] TU: Yeah, so right now you guys have property, correct me if I am wrong, you’ve got property in Northeast Ohio and then you’ve also got property outside of the area, correct?

[0:22:22.0] NH: Yes, so we’ve got properties here locally and then some up in Michigan as well.

So, I think working together in having a third party objectively look at everything and give us some guidance was really helpful as well.

[0:25:41.7] NH: That’s fair.

[0:28:55.0] TU: Nate, any other words of wisdom, advice you’d have to folks that are kind of in the thick of it, if you will?

Really incredible to hear the story and the why behind it and how you’re able to do it, excited for what lies ahead of you guys and thanks for taking time to come on the show.

[0:30:10.5] NH: Thanks Tim, we appreciate it.

[0:30:11.6] KH: Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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How a 2022 PharmD Grad Left School Debt Free

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How Two Pharmacists Paid Off $250k of Student Loan Debt

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