YFP 382: Living & Leaving a Legacy with Joe Baker


Joe Baker, personal finance instructor, returns for inspiring conversation about purposeful living, the power of mentorship, and the enduring impact of a life well-lived.

Episode Summary

In this episode, we welcome back Joe Baker, MBA for his third appearance on the show. Joe first joined us in 2019 with his former student Blake Johnson, where they shared the inspiring story of their debt-free journey, highlighting the pivotal role Joe played in Blake’s success. In 2020, Joe returned to discuss his book, Baker’s Dirty Dozen Principles for Financial Independence, sharing his expert insights on achieving financial freedom.

This time, we’re shifting focus to explore the themes of living and leaving a legacy. Joe opens up about the lasting impact he hopes to make through his teaching, his book co-authored with his daughter, Lindsey, and his dedication to giving back. He shares the story behind his two endowed scholarships, demonstrating his commitment to supporting and uplifting his community. 

Join us for an inspiring conversation about purposeful living, the power of mentorship, and the enduring impact of a life well-lived.

About Today’s Guest

Joe Baker is an instructor at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences College of Pharmacy, where he has been teaching personal finance for over twenty-five years. He holds a Bachelor of Business Administration from Southern Arkansas University and a Master of Business Administration from the University of Central Arkansas. Joe retired in 2019 from Pharmacists Mutual Company, where he spent twenty-eight years providing insurance and financial services to pharmacists across Arkansas.

As part of his commitment to giving back to the community, Joe has endowed two scholarships. The first supports students from his hometown of Emerson, Arkansas, who are enrolled at Southern Arkansas University. The second scholarship benefits students at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences College of Pharmacy who attended Southern Arkansas University.

Joe has been a guest speaker for academic and corporate groups nationwide, promoting financial literacy. Most recently, he co-authored a book on personal finance with his daughter, Lindsey Baker, titled Baker’s Dirty Dozen Principles for Financial Independence. Published in December 2020, the book is filled with humor and stories from contributors, offering a lively and engaging introduction to personal finance. It was ranked the #1 book by “Financial Education For Everybody,” a partner of Amazon, in their Financial Literature Category, and was also recognized by GoBankingRates.com as one of the “10 Financial Books That Will Change Your Life (and Finances).”

Joe and his wife Brenda reside in Little Rock, Arkansas.

Key Points from the Episode

  • Joe Baker’s Introduction and Background [0:00]
  • Joe’s Career in Pharmacy and Teaching [5:23]
  • Impact of Financial Education and Personal Stories [9:03]
  • Teaching Methods and Student Engagement [21:33]
  • Writing and Publishing “Baker’s Dirty Dozen Principles for Financial Independence” [30:10]
  • Philanthropic Giving and Endowed Scholarships [37:44]
  • Final Thoughts and Encouragement [46:10]

Episode Highlights

“I didn’t even make six figures until I was 47 years old, and became debt free by age 50. And it’s amazing the money you can accumulate when you’re debt free. Then I became a millionaire, and then doubled that in just a few short years. And I don’t say that to brag. I just tell people I got a late start.” Joe Baker [4:06]

“It’s not how much you make, it’s how much you keep, but then I added to it, it’s not how much you keep, but it’s how much you give away.” Joe Baker [42:01]

“Giving back does not have to be a monetary situation. It could be being the best father, being the best husband, giving in those respects. It could be at your place of worship, giving of your time, your efforts, your leadership, your mentors. It doesn’t have to be financial. It can be any of those ways. It will make you feel good and it’ll be a win-win.” Joe Baker [45:41]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich  00:00

Hey everybody. Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, I welcome Joe Baker for his third appearance on the show. Joe first joined us in 2019 alongside his former student, Blake Johnson, where they shared an inspiring, Debt Free Journey that highlighted the incredible impact Joe had on Blake’s journey. Then, in 2020 Joe returned to discuss his book, Baker’s Dirty Dozen principles for Financial Independence. In this episode, we’re taking a new direction, focusing on the themes of living and leaving a legacy. Specifically, we discussed the profound legacy Joe is creating through his teaching, his book written alongside his daughter, Lindsey, and his philanthropic efforts, including endowing two scholarships that give back to his community. All right, let’s jump into my interview on living and leaving a legacy with Joe Baker. Joe, welcome to the show.

Joe Baker  00:54

Thank you, Tim.

Tim Ulbrich  00:56

This episode, I don’t know if you know this, this episode of officially makes you a three time guest on the YFP podcast. So we’re so glad to have you back.

Joe Baker  01:04

Nice. Great to be back.

Tim Ulbrich  01:06

So we’ll give our listeners some quick history. We had you first on back in 2019 along with a former student of yours, and you may remember Blake Johnson. This was on episode 82 Blake shared his Debt Free Journey and the impact that you had on his journey, which I think fits nicely into the topic of living and leaving a legacy today, and how you have taught and helped others. And then we had you back on Episode 177 when you launched your book Baker’s Dirty Dozen: Principles for Financial Independence. We’ll link to both of those episodes in the show notes. But Joe, for those that maybe didn’t catch those episodes and don’t know who Joe is. Give us a brief introduction.

Joe Baker  01:42

Okay, well, sounds good. I was actually raised in a very low class family down on the Arkansas, Louisiana line. And for those that don’t know me, I’ve told the story many times. We didn’t even have an indoor toilet till I was nine years old. So a lot of people just can’t even imagine that. So my financial journey had not really started then and I tell everyone, my financial journey didn’t really start until I was 30 years old. That’s when I got married and ended up marrying a math teacher who exposed me to the time value of money, and it was just like a light bulb went off. I said, Wow, I was even, even though I was a business major. I said, I did not know this.

Tim Ulbrich  02:31

How’s that for a wedding gift, by the way?

Joe Baker  02:33

You know, I came into the situation kind of like in the movie, Oh Brother, Where Art Thou? You know, I didn’t have much to offer, but she saw that I was bonafide and I had something to give. I had a TV and a VCR. You can Google that, Tim, and a bed without a headboard. So I came in and with a little credit card debt. So I was quite a catch financially, but there, there was potential there, and I was bonafide, and by knowing or seeing the time value of money, it was just like a light bulb went off, as I said earlier, and I said, I’m already starting in my 30s, and that’s why, when I’m teaching or speaking to groups, I said, don’t worry if you’re in your 30s or even in your 40s. Yes, you have to catch up, but you can make a difference financially. You know, I’ve outlined this in my book, and I’m pretty much an open book when I tell my story, I didn’t even make six figures until I was 47 years old, and became debt free by age 50. And it’s amazing, the money you can accumulate when you’re debt free and and obviously became a millionaire, and then doubled that in just a few short years. And I don’t say that to brag. I just tell people I’ve got, I got a late start. And I to my pharmacy audience, the students especially, I say, you know, you’re, you’re starting off making six figures, whereas I was at 47 so you know, it’s a great story to tell because of my background from day one, when I was born. So but that’s my financial journey and and everything that I’ve lived since birth is is been able to relate to people out there about, yes, you can do this. You know, if I could do it, is even though it was a little later than I wanted to but you can as well. 

Joe Baker  04:13

You shared with me once before, Joe, I don’t know if you remember this, but you said to me, quote, my biggest financial accomplishment came from marrying a high school math teacher.

Joe Baker  04:57

I did not know I told you that, but that. Is the truth. It’s amazing. I think that’s chapter two in my book. Make sure you and your significant other are on the same financial page. And that is so true. You know, of all the financial decisions out there, you know, marrying someone that that makes a world of difference. 

Tim Ulbrich  05:23

So you have a strong connection to the profession. Not not a pharmacist yourself, but you’ve been involved in the profession for many years. Tell our listeners more about your background and career that’s connected you to the profession of pharmacy.

Joe Baker  05:35

I really got introduced to pharmacy in 1991 when I went to work for Pharmacist Mutual Insurance, and I worked for them for 28 years as the Arkansas rep, and I tell you, the Arkansas pharmacist and pharmacists across the country that I’ve gotten to know the best class of people, I have just enjoyed it. I miss the day to day being with them, and I can’t imagine my life right now not being involved some way with pharmacy or or pharmacy students. So did that for 28 years, retired in 2019 but I have been teaching at University of Arkansas, College of Pharmacy for 25 years, a personal finance elective, and started that in the fall of 99 and that’s another thing I say each semester. I said, I don’t know if I can keep doing this. And that first day, if not, the first thing, second day, I said, this is great. I love it. And you’ve talked you know what it’s like? You get that immediate feedback. They’re like sponges, and that is part of my I know the topic today is giving back. Giving back is so easy for me in this respect, because it’s for selfish reasons. I feel good. I feel sometimes like I’m an entertainer on a cruise ship, because you never know what’s coming up. You’re interacting with the audience and, and I like to tell stories and and they laugh a lot, not because of the grade, but because we’re having a good time in there. And and try to make it fun So, and that’s what I tell the students. I said, you know, there’s no reason why we can’t make this fun. It is about money. But been doing that, and I did do for about four years at Harding, College of Pharmacy. That’s the other university in the state, but, but the drive was pretty tough to go back and forth there. But also speak to groups across the country and and I have two presentations. One is with Pharmacist Mutual. They still contract with me, or in a contract with them, to do risk management talks. Whenever I do a risk management talk, I try to talk the school into it. Let me do a financial talk as well. Dovetail it in together. And sometimes I go and just do the financial talk, and sometimes I do the just risk management talk, but I always try to give, if it’s a risk management only, some financial information, and by the way, I always ask two questions whenever I’m before any audience. One, have you ever heard of Pharmacist Mutual Insurance. And two, have you ever heard ofYour Financial Pharmacist? And I do that because there’s no other organization that I know that does what you guys do, and it makes my job a little bit easier for to bring home some points about finances, and that’s what I’ve been doing since retirement. I don’t I’m not making a whole lot of money, if any, in retirement, but I sure am having a blast. It has been fun to get with the pharmacy students on the road and teaching them in class. They’re just, they’re just a hoot.

Tim Ulbrich  08:59

Yeah, yeah, having a blast and having a massive impact. You know, you mentioned Hey for selfish reasons, and I know what you’re referring to, that feeling when you’re with a group and you see some of the light bulbs go off, the connections start to be made. People start to make some pivots and decisions, and momentum is built. And, you know, look, look no further than episode 82 where you and Blake were talking about his journey becoming debt free, the impact you had on his journey. And look at the great things Blake is doing in his own financial plan that allowed him, not not only through getting debt free, but allowed him to propel into real estate investing and be on a path towards financial independence and giving, I mean, talk about generational impact, and obviously his continuation of that with his family as well. So that’s one example. I know you’ve had a profound impact on Blair Thielemeyer. We’ve had her on the show several times, and hundreds and hundreds of others that I’ve never had the opportunity to interact with. So we’re going to get more into that in a little bit. I want to ask you, though, Joe, you may remember this moment back in 2019. You and I were sitting next to each other at FinCon, which is a conference for basically, financial nerds, right, bloggers and podcasters and authors, and you and I were sitting at a keynote next to each other, and the keynote was being delivered by Ramit Sethi. And Ramit Sethi, for those that know is as the author of the book, I Will Teach You To Be Rich. And at the time you you had your book, I think, in an early draft form, if I remember right. And from that keynote, you’re like, wait a minute, I need to pivot and rewrite chapter one. What jumped out to during that keynote that shifted your thinking, especially given that you had been down this road before, like there was something that really jumped off the page here in that moment. 

Joe Baker  10:43

Oh, it was. As they say, it was an aha moment. And it was because I was, I had the early draft going of my book, and it was going to be, I don’t say, pretty typical of other financial books or personal finance books, but it was along the line of, don’t do this, don’t do this, don’t do this. You know, if you, if you buy a Starbucks latte every day, instead of putting up money, you’re gonna this is gonna cost you that. Don’t do that, don’t do this. And it was pretty negative. And when, when Sethi said, you know, if you want to go out there, and I’m paraphrasing, but it’s pretty close, if you want to go out there and have a latte, have a latte.And a light bulb just went off, and I don’t know if you remember, I turned to you and I said, I have just changed the focus of several chapters in my book. I went from telling people don’t do this, don’t do that, but do what you want, but they are opportunity costs. Consequences for it. Whatever you do is like my Pappy used to always say, he says, Whatever floats your boat. He would say that all the time, and that’s what it is here. If you want to buy a new vehicle, that’s fine, but let’s look at the opportunity cost. Go in it with an open eye, because his brother, Dave Ramsey says, there, you know, the depreciation all that. But don’t be so focused on the negative. I can’t do this, I can’t do this, can’t do that. But I love Paula Pants said one time, says you can afford anything, you just can’t afford everything. And I love that quote, and I have used it from time to time, and that is so true, because you’re out there and you’re focused on things to buy and not buy, and that’s what I did in my book. And also in class, I’m I’m telling them, actually, I show them, I say, Well, if you don’t spend your money here, let’s look at the opportunity cost, and let’s go over here and see what that money can be spent for somewhere else. I’m not telling you what to spend the money on. It’s like my sister and brother in law, and hopefully they won’t hear this podcast, but they in 34 years, they’ve owned 31 new vehicles purchased, and there’s an opportunity cost there. Now they make plenty of money, and that’s there’s no problem, and they’re happy. They enjoy it, as my pappy says, Whatever floats your boat. So they’re okay with that, and I’m okay with it too, but there is an opportunity cost by buying new vehicles all the time, and they understand that. But who am I to tell someone they can or cannot buy something. I just want to point out the ramifications if you’re if you’re doing that and and it has been so ingrained in my mind I can afford just about anything, not everything, but just about anything. But I am so, still so stingy with money. It irks me when I spend any money, and that’s just because many years of being dogmatic and the way we spend money, but, but that’s okay,

Tim Ulbrich  14:12

And the concept of that keynote, which has stuck with me forever since we heard it as well, was, was what he was referring to there, he calls in his book money dials. You know, so find the things that actually matter to you in the financial plan. Not other people, but matter to you, and dial those up. Make make them a priority, but for the things that you don’t really care about, like, stop spending money on those things, right? His example that he gives is, for him, it’s convenience. Like he’s all about convenience and technology and investing in those but, you know, he lives in an apartment in New York City. He’s not focused on a car. Cars don’t really matter to him. Like, to your point, everyone’s out there to define what what those are, but there’s an opportunity cost, and there’s an opportunity cost on both sides. You know, this is something that. Has stayed with me since reading Die with Zero by Bill Perkins, that you know, there also is an opportunity cost of potentially over saving. Now, what does that mean? And what does that exactly look like? Obviously, that’s where we start to get in the details. But there’s a balance between today and tomorrow, and I think that’s what he was really getting at in that keynote. And as you articulated well so many books, it’s cut this. Cut that if you don’t go by the latte, and you compound it over 35 years, it could have been X 1000s of dollars. Well, of course, right? But the point he’s making is that for some people, they really enjoy the experience of the latte. So be it. For other people, they could care less. So stop sending money on the latte and direct it elsewhere. So yeah, that was a great moment. And I remember you revising the manuscript and then sending it to me, by the way, in a paper copy in a manila folder? 

Joe Baker  15:47

Old school.

Tim Ulbrich  15:51

All right, so I want to talk about three areas around living and leaving a legacy that I think you just have role modeled incredibly well. And are three areas that I desire to follow in your path as well. And those three areas relate to living and leaving a legacy and teaching others. We’ll talk about that a little bit more. In the book that you wrote that will continue to endure and help others into the future, and then also through some of the philanthropic giving that you’ve done through some scholarships and other parts. So let’s take each one of those, one by one when it comes to teaching. You mentioned this a little bit in your introduction. You’ve been teaching personal finance since 1999 so going on 25 years now, which is incredible. What got you started in that journey when you began to teach? And obviously that would grow and evolve over time, but what was the initial step into saying, Hey, I feel like I’m at a place where not only can I implement this in my own financial plan, but I really feel like I can help others, especially others that are just getting started. 

Joe Baker  16:52

That’s a good question. You know, I was once a high school teacher, and I enjoyed it so much for the same reasons, and I would have been in an education even as of today if one of Chris, a friend of mine, who was Secretary of State of Arkansas, ran for Congress, and he asked me to work in his campaign. So I quit that job and and as strange as it goes, we lost in the runoff by two percentage points. So it changed everything, because I’d have been in Washington and all that, who knows, political junkie but, but because of the loss, gravitated out of that. But working at Pharmacist Mutual, I said, you know, there’s still something that I’d like to do, education wise, because when I was with with them, when I’d go out and work with pharmacists, I was always trying to teach. That was my idea of sales. You know, let me just teach you what some of the exposures are, and we’ll see if we can work out a solution for that. And then one time, I was at a registration at the University of Arkansas, College of Pharmacy, and I was just speaking with the dean, and the assistant dean told them about my love of teaching. And I don’t know who came up with it first, but someone said our students are making a lot of money when they get out back then, and, you know, late 90s, it was like 45,000 and they said, you know, they’re they really need some financial guidance. And I said, Well, let me see if I can put together something and, and that’s where we are today, after 25 years. And I will say it is the most popular elective, and I won’t say that’s because of me, but because of the material, because most people are not exposed to some of these tenants that we know in financial terms, like time, value, money, opportunity costs, Roth IRA, mutual funds, ETFs and all those things. And it has, it has just been a blessing to be able to teach the students. You mentioned Blake Johnson. You know, you never know this is almost like an evangelical feel to it. When you’re teaching about personal finance, you don’t know whose life you’re touching, you know, I didn’t even know you mentioned Blair earlier. I didn’t even know that I had any influence at all. Believe it or not, she was pretty quiet in class. But with Blake, you know, today, he’s not only highly financially successful in his own right, and I think he’s 36 maybe, but he is doing basically the same thing as being a facilitator at his church with Dave Ramsey’s course. So I look at that and say, you know, I like to think that I had something to do with that. And. So I see that and I and it gives me the feedback. You know, at least, I think I’m doing something good. And so forgot the actual question there, but, but that is part of my giving back is teaching. Obviously, I wouldn’t do it if, if it didn’t make me feel good, and, and a lot of this giving, and I’ll just say it right up front, Doctor House on the TV show House MD, I don’t know if you remember, he was pretty cynical. He made a statement one time. And I’ll paraphrase all  this giving and and helping others is just selfish in nature, or something like that. And I said, Well, that’s probably true, and it is true that it does make me feel good. If I set up a scholarship or teach or hand out a Starbucks card to somebody that’s doing great work that, you know, just some recognition, it does make me feel good. But why can’t there be a 50/50, win-win. You’re helping someone else. You’re helping yourself by feeling good. So, you know, what’s the downside here?

Tim Ulbrich  21:07

Yeah, I think both things can be true. I feel the same way, right? There can be an intrinsic value, you know? I think that’s probably a part of how we were wired and designed. But that can also have a benefit and impact on others that continue on to others as well. And I think that’s one of the cool things. As you share your story, when someone like Blair reaches out and references you as having an impact, you’re like, I had no idea, right, right? And you know, how many other students, how many students do you think you’ve reached and taught across those courses?

Joe Baker  21:36

Well, most years I’ve been teaching both semesters, and I kept up with it for a while. My classes are anywhere from 40 to 70 students. Most years were two semesters, and then you have hard I have no idea. But you know, if I only had three in a class, I would still teach the class, because I would feel that those three really want to be there. And if I can impact one person, whether it’s teaching a class or speaking at a conference, or just going on just any, any type of program, or just sitting down showing someone some of the numbers that I think it’s a job well done. Joe,

Tim Ulbrich  22:32

do you have a favorite activity within the course that you feel like really helps the students make a connection to a particular topic?

Joe Baker  22:39

Good question, and I use this when I’m speaking on their so called final exam. I don’t really give exams. I say, you know, attendance is crucial. That’s your grade, but your your lifetime, is your final exam. And and I don’t have to worry about you know, students being absent, because I say, any day that you’re missing could be worth a million dollars, and that usually has their attention. But on their official or unofficial final exam, I have them do one project. I say, Okay, you’re you’re p3 you’re graduating next year, in little over a year, you’re going to do what I’m about to tell you on this final exam. I give them a scenario. I say you’re making 120,000 a year with certain parameters. And it’s a a 401K practicum, okay? And I say, let’s go through this. You pick out how much you’re going to put into your 401 K, your contributions, the typical matching from your employer. Then you pick out whatever funds you want. I give them a selection, just like you would if you had a 401 K, enrollment at your employer. And then I say, okay, get that amount. We’re going to determine what your rate return would be. And I give them a little chart here. If you’re 75% stocks, you’re probably going to make eight to 9% but then I get all that information, and then I show I have them a financial calculator website, which I think you’ve seen. And I say, Okay, go through here and you tell me what you put in all this information, your age, how much you’re contributing, your rate of return, hypothetically you’re matching, and tell me what you’re going to have at age 60. And it is, it is an eye opener for them. And then I say, it’s, I said, this is open book, open neighbor. You talk to your neighbors, because if you’re doing an actual enrollment, you’re going to be asking for your co workers opinion, yeah, and they, I had one student said, yes, if I could just started one year earlier, I’d have an extra $2 million Dollars. And I said, mission accomplished, because all those are contributing factors as far as what you’re going to have one day. But I will say this, I have changed that somewhat. This last semester, I instituted something a little different. I say, Okay, you say, I can’t envision being at 60 or 65 and retiring. Why do I need to save all this money for something that I may not live to see, I may not be physically able to enjoy it? I said, Okay, well, fair enough that is, that’s a very fair question, because I am 69 as I stated earlier, half of my friends, relatives and acquaintances, I would say, are either gone or they’re not physically able to travel or do anything else. Now I said, I understand that, so let’s use time value of money and do something a little different. And this is probably off the subject today, but, but I think it’s significant. I said, Okay, we’re thinking that. Let’s just see if we can’t what would happen if we maxed out on your 401, K for just say, 10 years, 26 to 36 just like, kind of like what we did an example before, and then at age 36 after 10 years, then turn around and only contribute equal to your employer, match and see what it comes up to. And it’s still millions of dollars. And I said, you know, you’ve got all that extra money now, if you just sacrifice a little bit for 10 years. And then, yeah, I mean, it is, and we do that, I’m going to do that exercise now, because I know in a lot of their minds, it says, I don’t know if I just want to sacrifice my whole life. Yeah, and that is fair enough. And now that I’m at this age, I am seeing it where people have stayed up their whole life and what do they have it’s not able to enjoy it. So let’s, let’s use the time value of money and do something a little different. So anyway, that’s I’ve changed my MO a little bit, even in my talks, I’m using that as an example. I say, okay, you know, if you don’t want to do that your whole life, let’s, let’s do something else. 

Tim Ulbrich  27:31

I think what you’re doing there, and I’m sure you’ve made this connection, is it’s an actual representation of what you shifted in your book with chapter one that we just talked about, right? It’s this balance we talk about so often on the show, between, hey, yes, we’ve got to save for the future. We want to be ready and prepared. We don’t want to be caught off guard, right? But we also got to figure out a way to enjoy and live a rich life today. Both things can be true and but both can be done if we’re planning advance. And Joe, there’s actually a name for this now called Coast fi. Coast FI, standing for financial independence. It’s a sub, it’s a subset of the FIRE movement. And the idea, the idea is aggressive savings early for a defined period of time, and then you’re coasting

Joe Baker  28:16

Just when I thought I’d come up with something new. I know. 

Tim Ulbrich  28:19

I did this unintentionally, actually, where I don’t know if I shared this with you before, but early in my academic career, just by nature of academic positions, you’re typically forced a large contribution in. So like when I was at my first university, I think we had to put in. It was like 13 or 14% it was a forced contribution, because we didn’t pay into Social Security and we were part of the state retirement plan, but they matched something crazy, 11 and a half, 12% so my hand was forced at a time where, admittedly, when I had other priorities, goals just getting started, like I don’t think I would have probably contributed At that same value, and then come 15 years later, when I left that work to work on the business. And obviously then that kind of shifts cash flow and everything is we’re getting started with the business. I kind of did that Coast fi without realizing and so I can attest it. It works. I mean, the math works out, and it’s early savings, and it’s time value of money. And so I think there is different models out there in which we can achieve this balance. Right? Balance. So I love that you’re you’re reframing that activity, and I think for your students, I’m guessing maybe one of the things that comes up is, hey, Joe, this is great. We’re going to make a good income. I get that, but Dot. Dot. Dot. We’re going to have $170,000 in student loans. Have you looked at home prices recently and interest rates? Right? There’s all these competing pressures that are out there. But I think the point that you’re highlighting so well and helping them see the numbers come to life is this isn’t massive savings rates we’re talking about, especially if you’re doing it consistently throughout your career. We’re not talking about living off of rice and beans for the rest of your career. Yeah. I mean, it really even at a 10 to 15 to 20% contribution rate consistently over your career, like the math is going to work out time, value of money. So great stuff that you’re doing there. Let’s shift gears and talk about the book. So the legacy and impact that you’ve had in writing your book, Baker’s Dirty Dozen Principles for Financial Independence. We’ll link it to that in the show notes, people can pick up a copy at bakersdirtydozen.com, or on Amazon. You wrote this book with your daughter, Lindsay Jordan Baker, talk to us about the reason for writing the book. You’ve been teaching for a period of time now, almost 20 years, and you finally get this point say, You know what, I think I’m gonna write a book. What was the reason for wanting to put the book together?

Joe Baker  30:41

For those 20 years, I’d had students and former students says, you know, because I tell a lot of stories in class, it’s kind of like Jesus, you know, used to tell stories that way you could remember them. Jesus and I’m, I’m referencing him. We’re just like that. But, but my stories aren’t in parables. I like to think that they know exactly what I’m saying, but I like to tell stories, and whenever I have former students that come back, they’ll say a couple of things. They’ll say, Yeah, I remember that story you told about golfing and hitting somebody, and made the financial point with that, then they’ll say something, or a lot of them would say, you should write a book, put that in there. And I, you know, I thought about, you know, that is just as a lot of work. I didn’t really explore it. And I remember where I was, and it involved you. I was, I was at the physical therapist, and she was working on my knee. I had fallen on Masada in Israel, and read my patella tendon. And it was after surgery, and she was working on my knee, and I got this text, and I don’t even know why I had my phone. I looked at I said, Hey, look at this Tim for Your Financial Pharmacist and you don’t know is wanting me to write a book. And I said, Okay, I might just do that. And, and that was because of you. So thank you for that.

Tim Ulbrich  32:17

Sounds like it was planned for a while. 

Joe Baker  32:18

It was, it was, and so I did that, but it was a long process. And how Lindsay, my daughter, got involved. She is, I mean, she’s off the creative chart. She knows how to write. She was my chat GPT before Chat GPT, I mean, I’d run everything by her and and so one particular Christmas she was home, she’s been an educator for most of her young adult life. And she said, Dad, why don’t you let me read your manuscript? Because it was about ready to go to the publisher. And I said, Yeah, okay, you can help me out. And she’s and and I said, Well, honey, why do you want to do it? Just to help? She says, No, I know you’re putting a lot of stories in there, and I want to make sure they’re, they’re politically correct. And she would go through them, and she’d she would laugh a lot, but she said, that’s funny, dad, but you can’t use it, so it’s out of here. And then she would say, okay, you know, I don’t understand this particular section, like, if it Roth IRA or whatever. And I said, Well, you know, I’m writing this for your your age group – you don’t understand it? She Says, I’m sorry. I don’t understand it. So we would go back and forth. I would explain it to her, then she explained it back to me, until we got it right and literally. And I don’t use literally too often, but we went paragraph by paragraph, and she went through the whole book with me and and she just, she changed so much that I had to list her as a co author, and it was just, it was an amazing transformation. And I will say, because of that, she had a mostly educational background, and I probably didn’t do a good enough job teaching about money and plus, parents have trouble or student, not students, but children have trouble really digesting anything from parents. It’s hard for that to work, but by her reading and understanding all that, it changed her financial life. I’d love you know, I can’t even keep up with how much she accumulated on her Roth IRA with her 403 B through work, through the years. She told me just yesterday, it was just crazy how much money she has accumulated and and I think it has, well, I don’t think I know it has a lot to do with the book and how she edited it, and she learned a lot. I. Because of that. So back to your question, the book is, I use the book a couple of ways, obviously, in class, but I also use it as a gift. I probably give away more books than I than I sell, I don’t know, but whenever I’m speaking, I use this door prizes, and it’s very well received, and it is. It’s opened a lot of doors. It gives somewhat of credibility. Someone they told me, once that’s what books will do, and it has been a good conversation piece. And like, one of the things I like to do is my my alma mater is sponsor, like a table for some students. And whenever I do that, like I’m going to be doing in a couple of weeks, I always bring a copy of my book and give it to each of them, and with a little inscription in there. So, you know, I don’t know how many lives it’s touched, but if it’s touched one life, it’s been worth it.

Tim Ulbrich  36:07

Yeah, absolutely. And one thing I love about the book is that the stories really make the content come to life, right? Makes it memorable, helps it stick throughout the book, you’ve got sections where it’s this is the short and sweet, your takeaway, or the nitty gritty on the topic, or your certain choice or recommendation in a given area. So I think it’s written in a way that really is engaging. Helps the material come to life. It sticks. I hope people pick up a copy again, Amazon or bakersdirtydozen.com It was ranked number one book on financial education for everybody by a partner from Amazon and their financial literature category also recognized by gobankingrates.com, is one of the 10 financial books that will change your life. So, great work, Joe.

Joe Baker  36:49

And it was a joy, because a little bit plug for the contributors, I have, think 33 contributors, I just, you know, send out text or email. Say if you’ve got a financial story to tell, especially if it’s funny, send it to me, because, like I said about stories, they resonate with people. If you can tell a story with a financial principle, you remember that and and so I do have a lot of contributors there that have helped me with the stories in the book and and it was fun to compile it. I didn’t want it to be just a book of principles. I wanted a story to go with it as well.

Tim Ulbrich  37:38

So we talked about living and leaving a legacy through your teaching, through the book, both both you and I need neither one of those. The motivation is money. And the third area that I want to talk about is really giving of money and how that has become a part of your financial plan, why that’s become a part of your financial plan? So tell us about your philanthropic giving. I know you’ve endowed a couple scholarships, which is a big deal. I presume you’ve been involved locally as well, in your community, in your church. Tell us more about your giving strategy and how you’ve landed on the areas that you’ve made giving a priority.

Joe Baker  38:13

Okay, it was another aha moment, but back, I think it was in 2016 2016 it was about five years before I retired from Pharmacist Mutual. I was coming back from a different Israel trip, and I’m sitting at the airport. You know, when you get back into a country, you’re catching up all your work emails and all that. And I had an email from my employer, Pharmacist Mutual, That stated, or said, we are no longer going to give arbitrarily, just a scholarships, $1,000 scholarship, to every pharmacy school in the country. We’re going to do something different. I was devastated. I said, Oh my gosh. Because you know, when you take away from something or an institution, it is a negative fact. And the guy sitting next to me, he’s a travel buddy, and I’ve known him through church, and he’s 25 years my junior, and he’s sitting there, and he’s and I read it to him, he knew I was distraught, and he says, Why don’t you do your own scholarship? And I said, Hmm, I hadn’t even thought about that. Why? Why can’t it be a Joe Baker/pharmacy scholarship? So that’s what I did. I established my own scholarship for the one for the University of Arkansas, College of Pharmacy that awards a scholarship to students that have graduated from my alma mater, and the other one is a scholarship from my alma mater. So. So it was kind of like a light bulb went off, and by him just saying, you know, why don’t you do your own so it is amazing. I’ve learned his name is Shane Lester. Put a plug in for him, but he’s been kind of my mentor, even though he’s 25 years younger than I am, because he goes around, he’s a mortgage broker in a Little Rock and he goes around with stacks of Starbucks cards, Starbucks gift cards. And when I don’t know a stewardess does something nice, or you see a janitor or some whatever, he’ll hand out that gift card. And I’ve incorporated that, and I don’t even know how many gift cards I’ve handed out one time at the cleaners, this lady always did, you know, treated me with the kindness and stuff I gave her a gift card one time. I thought she was gonna come, well she did, she came around the counter and gave me a hug. And I will say I’ve gotten a lot of discounts since then, but I wasn’t doing it to get anything in return. But see the joy on her face. But I’ll see maybe a janitor or especially at the school, the college. I’m on the Board of Governors for the foundation. And you know these students, or young people that are helping out and they do special things, you know, I like to hand them a gift card just to say, hey, you know, some we recognize what you’re doing and we appreciate it, or I appreciate it, and you’d be amazed. I’ve got a little quote in there. I’ve kind of hijacked to saying, you It’s not how much you make, it’s how much you keep, but then I added to it, it’s not how much you keep, but it’s how much you give away. So, you know, so I’ve been blessed with that, but I learned it from someone else. It didn’t, didn’t come from me, but, but it makes an impact. Yeah,

Tim Ulbrich  42:01

And for those that aren’t familiar with for how endowments work, if those are folks aren’t familiar with how endowment works, it’s a big deal because you know, essentially what you’re doing there is you’re giving a large lump sum of money upfront to then allow for an annual gift that will live on forever. 

Joe Baker  42:19

And you’re and I tell people, I say, Hey, if you endow a scholarship your name, even though they don’t really know you, your name will go down in time. And I know we’re running out of time. Can I say how I funded that? Because somebody might use this. One of the assignments I have in class, and I’ve been doing this since 2010 is I have the students pick out a stock for me to buy in class. I’ll say, I want a blue chip stock. I want a high dividend payer. I want a good PE right, you know, just all the things, and it gives them a little time to research and all that. And then I’ll take those and I say, Okay, I like this, and I’ll buy one or two each semester in class. And at one time, that portfolio got up to over $265,000 and I said, I should have started doing this in 99 because it was just riding the wave. And I know individual stocks has its, you know, owned risk.

Tim Ulbrich  43:19

So you’re just doing this in like, a brokerage account, right? 

Joe Baker  43:21

Yes, a brokerage account. It wasn’t through an IRA and but some of those individual stocks accumulate so much so this sounds like I’m cheating, but it but it wasn’t. Like on the University of Arkansas, College of Pharmacy, I donated three stocks that had appreciated so much that actually my cost basis was $6,000 and when I donated, the stocks were worth $26,500. So I got the blessings of 26,500 and the recognition of an endowed scholarship. But my cost basis was $6,000 plus I wasn’t faced with the capital gains increase. I did the same thing with with the other with my the other endowment, and each year now there’s a fundraiser at our school, the my alma mater, that you buy a table for $25 so I just pick out a stock and get however many shares I need and and donate it and, and whatever’s left over goes to my my scholarship. Now that doesn’t make me sound as great as as I once did, but reason I’m saying this somebody knows may not have thought about this, but if you ever want to make a contribution to an area, think about charitable when you’re doing charitable giving, maybe donating a stock. Yeah, but, but it was, it was, is pretty good, using the leverage. And I did, sure didn’t want to sell the stock. Pay capital gains, then donate the money.

Tim Ulbrich  45:00

I was gonna say, What a great example of a win, win, win. I think it highlights so well what we’ve been talking about, right? It’s it obviously led to an endowed scholarship that has a benefit to the person receiving it. It allowed for, you know, a tax efficient way of giving. And it all happened through an exercise in which you were teaching the students something all along the way. That’s pretty cool.

Joe Baker  45:22

And they got an A too!

Tim Ulbrich  45:24

That’s right, that’s right! Awesome. This is great, Joe. I just love your heart for teaching, for giving. I think that is a thread of everything that you do. I know you’ve inspired me in my own journey and the work that we do at YFP as well. So thank you so much for taking time to come on the show. 

Joe Baker  45:41

Can I say one other thing? 

Tim Ulbrich  45:43

Yeah, absolutely.

Joe Baker  45:45

Giving back does not have to be a monetary situation. It could be being the best father, being the best husband, giving in those respects. It could be at your place of worship, giving of your time, your efforts, your leadership, your mentors. So it doesn’t have to be financial. It can be any of those ways. And once again, it will make you feel good, and it’ll be a win/win.

Tim Ulbrich  46:19

Yeah, I think the posture that you’re sharing there is one, one of a giving heart, right? That can be done in many different areas. So I love that. And thanks again, Joe for coming on the show. We appreciate it.

Joe Baker  46:28

Yes, thank you, Tim.

Tim Ulbrich  46:32

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyzes expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events, actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer, Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 364: Starting a Nonprofit: An Interview with Founder of Pharm to Tables, John Muchka, PharmD, BCPS


Dr. John Muchka, Founder of Pharm to Tables, talks about how he started the non-profit and its mission of helping end the hunger crisis in local communities.

This episode is brought to you by First Horizon

Episode Summary

In this episode, Tim talks with Dr. John Muchka, Founder of Pharm To Tables, a charitable organization uniting pharmacy professionals in a singular, focused mission of helping end the hunger crisis of our local communities

Dr. Muchka talks about how his service learning project during pharmacy school inspired the idea for Pharm To Tables, the why behind his passion to end hunger in local communities, how he was able to get his vision off the ground, and the lessons he has learned along the way.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. John Muchka received his Bachelor’s degree in biochemistry from the University of Wisconsin- Madison followed by his Doctor of Pharmacy from South University School of Pharmacy in 2010.

Dr. Muchka is a seasoned clinical pharmacist with over 13 years of extensive experience in the healthcare field. Throughout his career, he has demonstrated a steadfast commitment to advancing pharmacy practice and improving patient care.

As a Pharmacy Residency Program Director, Dr. Muchka plays a pivotal role in shaping the next generation of pharmacy professionals. His dedication to mentorship and education has empowered countless pharmacists to excel in their careers and make meaningful contributions to the field.

In addition to his role as a clinical pharmacist and Residency Program Director, Dr. Muchka is also the Co-founder and president of Pharm to Tables Charitable Organization Inc. Under his visionary leadership, Pharm to Tables has emerged as a driving force in promoting overall community health by helping to end food insecurity.

Dr. John Muchka is a respected voice within the pharmacy community on a local and national level. He currently serves on the Pharmacy Society of Wisconsin Board of Directors. Dr. Muchka also represents Wisconsin in the American Society of Health-System Pharmacists House of Delegates. Through his active involvement in these organizations, Dr. Muchka advocates for policies and initiatives that elevate the profession of pharmacy and enhance the quality of patient care on a local, national and global scale.

Outside of work, John loves spending time outdoors with his wife Lindsey and two sons, Luke and Noah

Key Points from the Episode

  • Ending hunger in local communities with nonprofit Farm to Tables. [0:00]
  • Career journey from construction to pharmacy, including residency and nonprofit work. [2:59]
  • Starting a nonprofit to address food insecurity. [7:52]
  • Starting a nonprofit to address food insecurity through the pharmacy profession. [12:26]
  • Leveraging pharmacy connections for food donations. [17:11]
  • Nonprofit organization supporting food pantries through pharmacy schools. [21:08]
  • Addressing burnout in healthcare professionals through philanthropic efforts. [27:18]

Episode Highlights

“I said why do you guys come here after school when you could go to Forsyth and and play with some really good competition and the answer is what it was the reason why I started Pharm to Tables. They said, if we didn’t come here, we wouldn’t eat dinner. And when I heard that, I mean, you could have probably seen my heartbreak in front of these kids. And I knew that I had to do something.” – Dr. John Muchka [9:54]

“Because food insecurity is a problem everywhere, not only in urban areas, but also in rural areas, there’s food deserts everywhere. And if we can do something to generate food and or money to help give access to these people who need it, we’re going to improve community health.” – Dr. John Muchka [10:39]

“You know when you have you have an idea that just won’t go away? As you’re laying in bed and you can’t fall asleep? And that’s the one that’s the thought that comes back in your mind. So whether it was a calling or whatever it was, it was it was just something that wouldn’t go away. So it was time to take action on it.” – Dr. John Muchka [12:20]

“I know when you’re a kid, everyone says you know, it’s better to give than to receive. And that’s absolutely true. I mean, makes you feel good. It fills the tank, it gives you more purpose of what you’re doing here.” – Dr. John Muchka [23:09]

“Another thing that I learned was it’s not easy. Nothing’s easy, right? There’s going to be barriers along the way and it would have been easy just to hang it up and say yeah, I had this idea but nothing really came of it. But to have the vision and the foresight to say this could be something that could make a big difference in a lot of people’s lives. And just to keep going, I mean, no doesn’t mean no, it means not right now. And I live by that.” – Dr. John Muchka [24:50]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich  00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I interviewed Dr. John Muchka, Founder of Pharm to Tables, a charitable organization uniting pharmacy professionals in a singular focus mission of helping end the hunger crisis of our local communities. We talked about his service learning project during pharmacy school and how that inspired the idea to Pharm to Tables, the why behind John’s passion to end hunger in local communities, how he was able to get his vision off the ground, and the lessons that he has learned along the way. Let’s hear a brief message from today’s sponsor First Horizon, and then we’ll jump into my interview with John Muchka. 

Tim Ulbrich  00:48

Does saving 20% for a down payment on a home feel like an uphill battle? It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high student loan debt, meaning that saving 20% for a down payment on a home may take years. For several years now we’ve been partnering with First Horizon who offers a professional home loan option AKA a doctor or pharmacist loan that requires a 3% downpayment for single family home or a townhome for first time homebuyers, has no PMI and offers a 30 year fixed rate mortgage on home loans up to $766,550 in most areas. The pharmacist home loan is available in all states except Alaska and Hawaii, and can be used to purchase condos as well, however, rates may be higher and a condo review has to be completed. While I’ve personally worked with First Horizon before and had a great experience with Tony and his team, don’t just take it for me. Here’s what Molly from New Berlin, Wisconsin had to say about her experience with First Horizon: “The communication and always being available to talk over the phone was great for us. It also made an impact getting an initial overview and education on the process from gal being able to submit everything electronically made it more efficient.” So if you want to check out the requirements for Pharmacist’s Home Loan from First Horizon and to start the pre-approval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. 

Tim Ulbrich  02:16

John, welcome to the show. 

Dr. John Muchka  02:18

Thanks, Tim. Happy to be here.

Tim Ulbrich  02:20

Well, I’m excited to have you to share the work that you’re doing and the story of the Pharm to Tables non-profit organization. We’ll get to that here in a little bit. I had the opportunity to meet you actually after I posted something on LinkedIn several months ago that said, Hey, I’d love to hear more about pharmacists that are involved in different philanthropic efforts or running nonprofit organizations. Someone reached out to me say hey, you’ve got to talk to John and hear about the work that he’s doing with Pharm to Tables. So here we are. Before we get into that, though, give us your background and career journey in pharmacy, including what led you into the profession where you went to school and some of the work that you’ve been doing since.

Dr. John Muchka  02:58

Sure. Initially, pharmacy was not on my radar, I come from a blue collar family- construction workers. I have three older brothers that that all work in the construction industry. My parents own a construction company so that was that was the logical next step for me to go just start working right away after high school. But when I was in high school I worked in, in a pharmacy in a in a community pharmacy. A family friend had owned the pharmacy and I worked there and I I enjoyed the work. And when I talked to my parents about maybe next steps, about me going to college and what they thought about it, they were they were on board 100% so I went to University Wisconsin-Madison. I got my undergraduate degree in biochemistry. Still really didn’t know what I was going to do. But then I thought back on my my time as a pharmacy technician, and I was like, you know, let’s let’s give this pharmacy thing ago. Decided to go out of state. I was in Madison for about five years and I was looking to go somewhere else, see another part of the country. So I went to pharmacy school in Savannah, Georgia at South University. Thought I was still going to do the retail pharmacy route until I started doing my appy rotations. And there’s a lot of army bases out there. So a lot of the collaborative practice agreement models where pharmacists ran clinics and I worked in a lot of the hospital settings and I really enjoyed that. So I decided to pursue a PGY1 residency. I was lucky enough to match back home here in Milwaukee at Froedtert and Medical College of Wisconsin. That was in about 2011 I think. After I completed my residency, I wanted to take what I learned at the academic medical center and take that back to the community that I lived in. So I wanted to take the cutting edge pharmacy stuff that we were working on there and take it from here community hospital that might not have the resources or, or the knowledge base of the pharmacists that were working there to implement some of this cool stuff. So I took a job as the 770 D-central pharmacist in the town and a hospital in town I grew up in. My mom was actually a unit clerk at the hospital when I was growing up. So I went back to the hospital that she worked at. And I knew a lot of the people that were still there. And I was able to implement some cool stuff in that in that pharmacy department.

Tim Ulbrich  05:22

Love it. And I love to hear the career journey coming back to home. And many listeners know that I’ve got four boys. So when you shared with me that you have three brothers, I love the brothers story you shared with me when we talked a couple of months ago that one of your brothers said, Hey, I’m not gonna hire you. You need to go to school. Right? Yeah.

Dr. John Muchka  05:41

That was probably the best career decision. Fourth career decision that I had. So yeah, he was looking out for me and he said, Hey, man, we don’t have the brains that you have, you can do the work. The work is great. What we do right now, and if you ever need a job, if it doesn’t work out, you can come back and work for us. But we want you to give it a go doing something else. 

Tim Ulbrich  06:02

Just love that. It’s such a brotherly way of saying like, I love you, I need to encourage you in this direction, I’m not gonna hire you.

Dr. John Muchka  06:13

After I spent some time at the Community Hospital, where where I grew up, there was something missing there in it was not having students in residence. It was a small community hospital, and I was used to that resident learning environment. So I decided to go back to a different teaching hospital within Froedtert and Medical college, it’s in Menomonee Falls, which is a suburb of Milwaukee. So I’ve been there the last nine years. I’m a Clinical Pharmacist there, I’m also the residency program director, we’ve got three residents, that’s one of the highlights of my day to day is watching them and mentoring them. And those aha moments that they have along the way, when when they come in, and they’re so green in July, and then at this point in the year now, I mean, they’re looking for jobs, I’m trying to open up my network to them, and just the growth that you see in those, that short period is amazing. So that’s where I currently am and who knows where the future is gonna take me. Digging what I’m doing right now.

Tim Ulbrich  07:15

Well, let’s talk about the Pharm to Tables organization that you started, I will link to the website in the show notes Pharmtotables.org. Tell us about the purpose of that nonprofit organization that you started. Sure.

Dr. John Muchka  07:29

So the purpose is, I mean, food insecurity is a problem everywhere. And I’ll get into the backstory of it, probably in a little bit here. But you notice that social determinants of health are a big, they have a big impact on overall community health. And I wanted to do something to increase food accessibility to people and not only my community, but the surrounding communities. So we had the idea when when I was in pharmacy school at South University. Part of our curriculum was servant leadership and we had a list of things that we could do. And being naive when I moved out there having only known Madison for the last five years. I just picked a picked a place that was relatively close to my pharmacy school that I could ride my bike to. And I was looking for the most inexpensive apartments to live in. No surprise after I got there, I mean, it was in a lower socioeconomic neighborhood, which I was fine with. But I picked one of the locations it was called the Savannah Baptist Center. And what they did there was mentored kids in the community. It was an after school program. They had a food pantry there and they also had a clothes closet. Miss Alice White was the lady that ran that she ran a pretty tight ship. And she wouldn’t give you access to the after school mentorship program until you earned your keep so for the first few months, I worked in the food pantry in the clothes closet. I made my desires known that I wanted to be with the kids after school, I wanted to mentor them. Some of those kids didn’t have a positive male influence in their life. And I thought I could be that. So after a few months, she gave me permission to start hanging out with the kids after school. I started doing it I think we were we were mandated to go twice a month. I started going two times a week, three times a week because I really enjoyed the work that we did there. And one thing that we did was provided a meal for them before they went home. And I didn’t really think too much about that. Until I started talking to the kids. There were two brothers that I was very close with. They loved basketball and if anyone’s been to Savannah, there’s a big park called Forsyth Park in downtown that that always has games running from sunup to sundown some very competitive games and these two kids were really good at it and I said why do you guys come here after school when you could go to Forsyth and and play  with some really good competition and the answer is what it was the reason why I started Pharm to Tables, they said, if we didn’t come here, we wouldn’t eat dinner. And when I heard that, I mean, you could have probably seen my heartbreak in front of these kids. And I knew that I had to do something. I didn’t know what it was yet. But that night, I went home and I talked to my wife and I said, Lindsey, we need to do something that I told her the story. And she’s like, let’s, let’s do it. Not sure what we’re going to do yet. But, but let’s do it. So I had her support. And that was, that was the dawn of Pharm to Tables, I still didn’t really know what I was doing. But that was the origin of why, why to get it started. Because food insecurity is a problem everywhere, not only in urban areas, but also in rural areas, there’s food deserts everywhere. And if we can do something to generate food and or money to help give access to these people who need it, we’re going to improve community health.

Tim Ulbrich  10:55

And I love that that started with a project right as part of the curriculum that led to a service opportunity, which led to an awareness of a problem, but then ultimately, you decided to take action. And you know, it’s one idea, one thing to have an idea, it’s another thing to take action. And I think especially when you think about starting a nonprofit organization, you know, there are a lot of hoops to jump through, there can be a lot of doubts that come up, even people that are probably like, John, what, what are you doing? There’s lots of resources that already exist, like, why are you trying to solve this problem? Maybe you had some that maybe you didn’t, but moving past that idea to actually execute on that idea is two totally different things. And I think that step is so important, not knowing exactly where it will go. And we’ll talk about kind of the future direction and where things are at today. But tell us about that early decision to actually get started. And what some of those initial steps were that you took.

Dr. John Muchka  11:47

Absolutely, yeah, that’s the biggest step going from idea to actually getting, getting it something tangible to something. And it took it took a long while. So I had the idea, but I was still finishing pharmacy school, and then I was doing my residency. And there were there were a lot of times where I thought, you know, let’s just scrap this idea. It’s a lot of work, I don’t really know what I’m doing yet. I want to just get through my residency, I want to be a pharmacist, I want to help people in that way. But I think I shared this with you in our in our meeting before but you know, you have you have an idea that just won’t go away. As you’re laying in bed and you can’t fall asleep. And that’s the one that’s the thought that comes back in your mind. So whether it was a calling or whatever it was, it was it was just something that wouldn’t go away. So it was time to take action on it. And again, having not having a lot of experience in nonprofits. Thankfully, my wife when we lived in Savannah, she worked for the United Way. And she had some resources and some experience on how to how to start. So I talked to some of her colleagues there and I just started started the paperwork, I didn’t really again know exactly the direction was going to go. But I knew I wanted to do something revolving around food insecurity, and tie that into the pharmacy profession and how we can we can help out. So I formed a board and thankfully, my college roommate from Madison is an attorney. So he helped me out with some of the legal paperwork and filling out those 501C3 national paperwork documents, that’s no joke, and then the articles of incorporation and your bylaws and all the stuff that we had to create before we could do anything before we were acknowledged as a 501 C three that timeline probably took close to a year to get the board set to get all the all the documentation in order and filed. And then we got it we got our employee ID number and we were a 501C3. So at this point, I’m very jacked. I’m ready to take over the world here. problems, though, the first thing I did was go to pharmacy leaders and mentors that I had to pitch my idea to do my elevator speech to them. And I thought it was gonna be I thought it was going to be acceptance across the board, but it wasn’t. There were barriers there. And it was, as you mentioned earlier, like Hey, John, it’s a good idea. But what do I mean what are you doing? You can allocate resources to other nonprofits to help with this and I really had the vision of trying to tie it to the pharmacy professional not not only pharmacy but the healthcare profession. Yeah. So it was a little rocky in the beginning when you hear no from people that you thought you’re gonna hear yes from you had to pivot a little bit and just keep on going and finding the people that that do support the mission that you believe in and found some pharmacy leaders and mentors of mine that were all in and said Great idea. Let’s let’s go How can I help and once you hear how can I help? Then you can definitely start leveraging those relationships and they open their networks to you and talk to other like minded people. And then it started taking off but I didn’t really know where to start with with the food or fund raising abilities. So I started with the pharmacy schools in the state. And I wanted to get students involved in, in servant leadership and giving back to their communities. And once you start that early on, they carry that throughout their their profession, professional career. So I met with the deans of pharmacy, and they were on board. And we had our first what we call the Pharmacy Food Fight. And it’s a competition on who can raise the most food and money. And it was over a week. And I mean, the beginnings were a little meager, I think, I think the first checks that I distributed to the meal programs that we support was $500 each, which I thought was great, I thought when I was over the moon about it. And then the next year, it started to grow. And people were aware of Pharm to Tables, and we got some name recognition. And then we started getting the alumni of those pharmacy schools involved. And that’s when it really started to take off. We also contacted the state organization, so pharmacy society, Wisconsin was an early adopter. And they allowed me to come and give presentations on servant leadership at their annual and summer meetings and have food drives at the actual meetings. So people would come in, bring their non perishable food item, we had options for them to donate online for what we were doing. And that gave me the platform to talk to other pharmacy leaders across the state and get buy in from them. We also have a food drive in October during pharmacy week that spans the state of Wisconsin. All the health systems in the state were involved one way or another. And I think we had about 35 sites that had food drives on their sites, whether it was a community pharmacy, a hospital, pharmacy, the clinics. And we keep all the food that’s donated local to where it where it was donated from. So I help connect the pharmacies or health systems that are not in my immediate area or geographic region, I help connect them to other food pantries that are near them and help build those relationships. So hopefully it continues for years to come.

Tim Ulbrich  17:11

One of the things I was struck by John and what you just shared is, is how critical of a pivot point that mentor mentors plural, really asking the question how I can help, right, because I think one of the questions I like to ask people when they’re beaten up an idea is that we say tell me more. Tell me more, tell me more. And the purpose of that is I don’t know intuitively what they may or may not know, intuitively, but I can help them process by asking questions. And certainly, if there’s an opportunity to help, how can I help, right? And what I heard there was, wow, like now there’s opportunities for networking relationships, and a natural answer to that question is, well, you can help by, you know, making an introduction here or connecting with a health system or connecting with a state organization or connecting with a college. And I would presume that led to the expansion of the work that you’ve been doing, which now is not only in the state of Wisconsin, but you also have expanded outward as well,

Dr. John Muchka  18:05

Right. Yep, we’re in four states now, hopefully adding a fifth this year. And that’s been working with the state organizations. So Sarah Sorum, who is the President at PSW introduced me to Kate Gainer, the Iowa pharmacy, resident, and they loved the idea. So they started doing something in Iowa every year. And then Kate gave me another connection with Anthony Pudlow, who is now in Tennessee, he was an Iowa, they’ve adopted it in Tennessee as well. So I mean, just meeting, just having those connections in the state organizations has really allowed us to, to expand out of the state of Wisconsin and try to do good work, not only in the Midwest, but hopefully, the plan is to expand it further as years to come. 

Tim Ulbrich  18:55

For those that are listening, if you have a connection with a state association, executive, college of pharmacy that you think might be interested, reach out to John directly, we’ll provide some contact information in the show notes reach out to us, we’ll help make a connection there as well. John, help our listeners understand the model. If I if I understand it correctly, you are facilitating donations, food drives, other types of efforts that then tie into other efforts and organizations that are already established as boots on the ground to provide food in addressing some of the food insecurity is that is that correct? 

Dr. John Muchka  19:30

that’s absolutely correct. So I don’t know if the term umbrella organization is the right term but so we utilize the Pharm to Tables name and try to leverage that with the with the pharmacy profession. But we vet meal programs and food pantries, so we raise money and and non perishables and allocate them to food pantries in our area. But for the model outside of the state, they’re using the name recognition of Pharm to Tables and I help make connections with those local food pantries and meal  programs. But there’s usually a site champion that that will handle the actual day to day or week food drive that they have and be in connection with those meal programs. So we do have the availability to donate online. Most of those online donations go directly to the Wisconsin organization. So the outside out of state meal programs, they usually have a site champion that they’ll donate actual money to. And then they allocate that money to the meal program. So it doesn’t go through the Pharm to Tables website for out of state solicitations based on different solicitation laws for others.

Tim Ulbrich  20:44

One of those lessons that your attorney roommate helped you navigate, right?

Dr. John Muchka  20:49

That’s exactly right. I didn’t realize how, how different some of those solicitation laws are from state to state. So to keep everything clean, if it is in another state, we usually allocate a state champion to raise the money and then that money will go directly to whatever meal program or food pantry they desire.

Tim Ulbrich  21:08

What I really liked about the model, what you’ve built, John, is it layers on you use the term umbrella organization whether or not you know that that’s necessarily a correct term, I’m following what you mean by that which it layers on the existing infrastructure, and organizations that already exist in alignment with the purpose that you have, but elevates the awareness of the need to other individuals that perhaps you’re looking for an opportunity to give that may not necessarily already be plugged in with that organization, rather than replicating the work of other organizations. It’s really helping elevate and support the work that’s already been done, which is great. I think that’s, that’s an awesome model for folks to think about. So if I’m following John correctly, essentially, there’s, when it comes to how your organization supports efforts, there’s monetary donations that folks can make directly, as well as donations of goods. And that often happens through some of the drives and other things that you’re doing. Is that correct? 

Dr. John Muchka  22:01

That is absolutely correct. Yep. So I know, in the state here we have we have fundraising events. In Wisconsin, we have two major fundraising events that we raised the bulk of the monetary donations through. But most of the offset or the out of state, run things are mostly food donations. There is the monetary donations that that again, go to that site champion, but we want to make sure that all the donations stay local for more they can. It’s 100%, volunteer organization, so any of the money that comes in is going to go back out. It’s a it’s a passion project and not making any profit. Sure. But it’s something that fills my tank and and keeps me going and when once see the impact, or when you give that check to the food pantry, or you drop off a trailer full of food to a food pantry, just just seeing the results of that. And when they say this is going to make such a difference, and they actually mean it. That’s what keeps me going and wants you to do more. I mean, I know when you’re a kid, everyone says you know, it’s better to give than to receive. And that’s absolutely true. I mean, makes you feel good. It fills the tank, it gives you more purpose of what you’re doing here. So it’s something that it’s been a lot of work to get going. But it’s been worth every hour that I put into it, just seeing the impact that has had on my community and seeing it grow and people buying in on the regional has been amazing.

Tim Ulbrich  23:37

Well, we’ve got 140 plus colleges of pharmacy now out there. So no excuse we should have all 140 plus colleges that are involved, I’d love to see a national right kind of food food competition supporting what you’re doing with Pharm to Tables. As you look back on getting the nonprofit off the ground and all of the work that you did to go from idea to executing on that idea to obviously the growth and to getting the buy in and to now actually raising raising funds and having the impact that you’re having. Are there one or two things that stand out to you as lessons learned along the way, you know, as you as you implemented the work and the efforts that you’re doing at Pharm to Tables,

Dr. John Muchka  24:16

I think I think the biggest is people are innately good and want to help. We just need to find the ones that are like minded and want to do it. A lot of people want to give but like you had mentioned before, maybe they don’t know what platform they want to do that on, but giving them an opportunity to give and get that get that feeling that that you get when you give. That was the probably the biggest lesson is people want to help. They just want they need to find a reason or how to do it a way to do it. Another thing that I learned was it’s not easy. Nothing’s easy, right? I mean, there’s going to be barriers along the way and it would have been easy just to hang it up and say yeah, I had this idea but nothing really came of it. But to have the vision and the foresight to say this could be something that could make a big difference in a lot of people’s lives. And just to keep going, I mean, no doesn’t mean No, it means not right now. And I live by that. I mean, a lot of people say no, and I take that as Okay, that’s a no, no, but not stop doing.

Tim Ulbrich  25:24

Yeah. Love the resilience of that. I think it’s it’s certainly good advice, as you think out into the future, John, let’s say 5, 10 years, and you know, that next evolution that next phase of the Pharm to Tables, what what does success look like? What does growth look like for the organization?

Dr. John Muchka  25:43

I think that success and growth are going to be hand in hand here. And our goal as the board is to add an additional state every year. Whether it’s one school of pharmacy, or one health system that wants to do something. So leveraging all of our combined networks to find the people that want to give and want to help and are in the position, maybe to pitch it to their board or pitch it to their school of pharmacy. That’s the plan. It’s, it’s, it’s growing a little faster than I had anticipated, which is there’s some logistical things that that we need to to button up. But I mean, it’s great just seeing how this thing is taken off. So just giving people that opportunity in that platform to make a difference and to give in, as pharmacists, I mean, that’s why we signed up for this thing to help people. And that can look a lot of different ways. It can be at the bedside, it could be in the community when you’re consulting or giving medical advice to someone. But this is just another avenue for us to to help our communities to improve community health. And I think that’s success right there. I mean, any little bit we can do to maybe make it a little easier on somebody in our community where then they might be able to afford their prescription instead of making a decision between feeding their families or, or buying their their chronic medication. I mean, that could make a world of difference, not only for their families, but for their individual health.

Tim Ulbrich  27:17

Yeah, and I think one thing that struck me, John, is you’re just talking, as you know, we know that there’s a lot of burnout that’s happening in among healthcare professionals among pharmacists. And, you know, I think, going back to some of the roots of hey, why don’t we get started in the profession of pharmacy. And I think being involved in philanthropic efforts being involved in giving activities, whether that’s monetarily, whether that’s your time, whether that’s both, I think that can be an important antidote to some of the burnout and other things that folks may be experiencing. And again, going back to the days when we were all in pharmacy school, even if that was 15, 20 years ago of hey, what why was I so excited and passionate about this project, this effort? You know, this initiative? John, as we wrap up here, what is the best way that our listeners can learn more about the work that you’re doing, to stay up to date with the work that you’re doing, potentially get involved, whether that be financially or make a connection, what what would be the best way for our listeners to do that?

Dr. John Muchka  28:11

The best way would probably be to visit our website to see what we’re doing. Or you can contact me directly and Tim, I can give you my contact information for people to contact but talk to your, your fellow pharmacists, talk to your families, talk to your community and see, hey, is this something that we want to do. It’s not a ton of work to put on a food drive or or do a fundraising activity to help your communities and I can definitely help guide them through those steps on how to do it. Because it was trial and error for me when I first started and I definitely learned some key things along the way on what makes them maybe more successful and gets buy in from from the people that they’re looking for. So start with the website, contact me individually, I would love to have a conversation about ways that we can help our community and hopefully help end food insecurity in the community that I’m in and the community that all the listeners are in.

Tim Ulbrich  29:09

So again, we’ll link to the website pharmtotables.org in the shownotes will also link to John, share your contact information. Thanks for giving that information out. I love what you have built love what you’re working on. When you shared with me a couple months ago, how you got started, the story behind getting started, how you took that step from idea to ultimately getting off the ground and now to see the growth  of that, have a lot of respect and admiration for what you’re doing there. So thank you so much for coming on the show to take time to share your journey. 

Dr. John Muchka  29:37

It was a pleasure. Anytime, Tim.

Tim Ulbrich  29:39

Thank you. 

Tim Ulbrich  29:42

Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists in the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s Pharmacists Home Loan, which requires a 3% downpayment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers and has no PMI on a 30 year fixed rate mortgage. To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s Pharmacist Home Loan, and to get started with the pre-approval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. 

Tim Ulbrich  30:25

DISCLAIMER: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 334: Philanthropy Unveiled: Strategies for Effective Giving


Explore philanthropy insights with Tom Dauber, Founder of Abundant Vision, covering donor considerations, impact assessment, and affluent traits.

Episode Summary

Curious about donating to nonprofits and giving financial gifts in general? This week we welcome Tom Dauber, Founder of Abundant Vision Philanthropic Consulting. In our interview, Tom shares his knowledge gained from over two decades of involvement in fundraising initiatives and campaigns, offering valuable perspectives to consider when contributing to an organization or cause. He sheds light on the vital questions that prospective donors should examine before making substantial contributions, how to determine the alignment of the gift with the potential impact, and the defining characteristics of wealthy donors, including their career paths, educational backgrounds, and wealth acquisition strategies.

About Today’s Guest

Tom solicited his first “major gift” at age 17 and ran his first fundraising event the following year. After receiving his BFA from Bowling Green State University in 1998, he began his career in non-profit sector. Over the past decade Tom has directed teams responsible for $120M in fundraising initiatives and campaigns. his experience spans faith-based, health science and health system fundraising. From 2005-2019 Tom was the Chief Development Officer for The Ohio State University College of Pharmacy. During his tenure, he grew pharmacy fundraising revenue by 40% annually, taking them from $1.5M annually to over $10M. Tom oversaw alumni affairs, corporate engagement, communications and fundraising for the school and served as President of the AACP Advancement Special Interest Group. Today Tom is the President of Abundant Vision Philanthropic Consulting. He began the company to help small and medium size foundations benefit from high caliber fundraising expertise. Tom is a life-long resident of Central Ohio, growing up just outside of Columbus in rural Johnstown. These days he lives in Westerville, Ohio with his wife Tracey Papenfuss DVM, PhD. Together they have four kids, three dogs and two cats.

Key Points From the Episode

  • Tom dives into why giving is an area of passion for him.
  • He delves into key questions prospective donors should consider asking about organizations.
  • We explore the question, “Is my donation going to be tax deductible?”
  • His thoughts on gifts that are given anonymously and the pros and cons you should consider. 
  • We talk about the concept of funds being specifically allocated to cover overheads.
  • Bunching donations to take advantage of tax benefits.
  • Tom highlights the themes and characteristics of those making large gifts.
  • His advice on what not to invest in.
  • We discuss the idea of there being many pathways to building wealth.

Episode Highlights

“The reason that I love fundraising is because I love giving. I love being generous, I love being able to help people. I love being able to make a difference.” — Tom Dauber [0:06:57]

“The beautiful thing about being able to participate in philanthropy is it gives you the opportunity to make a difference in situations that you might never be able to act otherwise.” — Tom Dauber [0:07:06]

“Fundraising, to me, is really just another form of financial advising.” — Tom Dauber [0:09:35]

“What we’re looking for all the time as fundraisers is where that person’s passion intersects with the mission of my organization.” — Tom Dauber [0:11:05]

“There are just so many things pharmacists can do with their degrees entrepreneurially that can lead to their success.” — Tom Dauber [0:38:52]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.8] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I welcome a former colleague of mine, Tom Dauber, Founder of Abundant Vision Philanthropic Consulting. Tom shares his experiences from 20-plus years in fundraising initiatives and campaigns, to give our listeners insights of things they should consider when donating to an organization or cause. Tom outlines key questions that donors should get answered before making large gifts, how to determine the alignment of the gift with the potential impact, and defining characteristics of large donors including career paths, education, and how they acquired their wealth.

Let’s hear a brief message from YFP team member, Justin Woods, and then we’ll jump into my interview with Tom Dauber.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[0:00:48.8] JW: This is Justin Woods from the YFP Team with a quick message before the show. If you listen to the YFP Podcast, you may learn something every now and then, either from Tim Ulbrick, Tim Baker, or one of our guests. A lot of people listen to this show but they may not execute or implement the things they learn. As pharmacists, we know the impact of nonadherence on patient outcomes and their overall well-being. 

As a pharmacist myself and part of the YFP Team, I talk with pharmacists every day who are confused about how to implement financial knowledge. Pharmacists share with me that they are treading water financially, maybe took a DIY approach, reached a plateau, and are confused about what to do next, or those who work for decades can see the light at the end of the tunnel and feel uncertain about how the next chapter will unfold. 

If that sounds like you, one, it is not uncommon to feel that way, and two, does it make sense for us to have a conversation to see if YFP Planning can help you? Visit yfpplanning.com or follow the link in the show notes to find a time that works for your schedule.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:54.0] TU: Tom, welcome to the show. 

[0:01:55.9] TD: Oh, thanks Tim, it’s great to be here.

[0:01:57.5] TU: So, some background information and context for our listeners, our career paths crossed several years ago, back in – it must have been 2018, 2019 when I came on as faculty at Ohio State. At the time you were working in the advancement office at OSU College of Pharmacy and we had a chance to work together several times through that time period and then, just recently, a few months ago, I had reached out to you as we are starting a nonprofit called YFP Gifts. 

We’re going to have more information for our listeners about that here in a little bit and I wanted to tap into your expertise and was just a great opportunity to reconnect with you but also, as you were sharing some of the work that you’re doing right now in your career, I thought, “Wow, what a great episode this would make.” As we can tap into your experiences on the side of receiving funds, receiving philanthropic funds, such that for those in our community that are making giving a part of their plan, they can take away some tidbits that would be helpful to that portion of their financial plan. 

So, first and foremost, thanks for being here, and if you want to kick off by telling us a little bit more about your career background and the work that you’re doing now with Abundant Vision Philanthropic Consulting.

[0:03:08.7] TD: Sure. Back in gosh, it would have been the 90s, I wanted to start a club up at my school and I wanted it to be official and I decided since I didn’t have a job, I just needed to go ask somebody for the money and so, I went to a couple of different business people that I knew. One was my cross-country coach, one was my Sunday school teacher and I got one of them to give me 75 bucks.

[0:03:30.2] TU: Oh, that’s awesome.

[0:03:31.3] TD: And started an official chapter of my organization, it was exciting. That’s the first major gift that I ever closed and then shortly after that, began doing some fundraising of events for local things and just kind of worked my way through it, and then you know, when I graduated from Bowling Green State University.

[0:03:47.9] TU: Go Falcons.

[0:03:48.1] TD: I ended up. What’s that?

[0:03:49.7] TU: Go Falcons.

[0:03:50.2] TD: Yeah, that’s right. Go Falcons. You know, with my art degree there, really, I had some passions in my life that I needed to pursue outside of art, and so I ended up going to work for Central Howl Youth for Christ, works with youth here in the Columbus area, ended up going back to my hometown, and essentially starting a new branch of that organization out of Northwest Lincoln County. A lot of fundraising involved with that.

It was what I like to call a nonprofit with a capital win, so they really didn’t have much money, and so our salaries were appropriately sized compared to that, and as my family grew, got children, got married, well, opposite order there, got a mortgage and ultimately, I just couldn’t live on that salary anymore, and as I kind of tried to figure out, “What can I do? What am I going to do? I’m not going to make a living as an artist.” 

And I realized that people actually pay you a reasonable salary to go raise money for them, and that was my entrée into the Ohio State University at the College of Dentistry, and so I spent seven and a half years there kind of working my way up from an entry-level position into Director of Development. So, reporting up to a senior director and after a good bit of time and having some success, I was given the opportunity to be the Senior Director there at the College of Pharmacy and that was 2012, 2013. 

That was right on the tail end of Dean Brugamyer’s term there and transitioning into Dean Henry Mann and that’s when I went from kind of being the expert in oral healthcare to learning a lot from some wonderful teachers there at the pharmacy school. So, I did that from 2012 to 2019. Then, Ohio Health came calling and went to report there and ran an entire team of Chief Development Officers for that organization. 

And then, you know, we had a kind of a string of layoffs there at Ohio Health and I was, you know, kind of one manager too many, I guess, and ended up stepping out of that position, and as I kind of weighed, “You know, what could I do professionally?”

[0:05:53.6] TU: Yeah. 

[0:05:54.2] TD: I began to talk to some different organizations. I was really getting deep into some pretty exciting searches for some wonderful nonprofits and then, an opportunity came to work with a kind of a nationally known nonprofit but actually hadn’t really done much fundraising and did not really do much in the world of major gifts, and so with that in front of me, I pulled my name out of all those late-stage searches and decided to start my own shop, helping nonprofits figure out how to increase fundraising in their organization.

[0:06:25.9] TU: I love that Tom, and excited to tap into your expertise here during this interview. I’m curious to know, what led you to make your life’s work around giving, right? You talked about, you know, the importance of providing for your family, making a good salary, you know, you mentioned that very early experience, right? Your first major gift of $75 but I have always sensed that deeper for you, right?

You have this life’s work around giving and helping organizations. Why is giving an area a passion for you? Regardless of the area of the gift?

[0:06:56.9] TD: Well, you know, for me, the reason that I love fundraising is because I love giving. I love being generous, I love being able to help people. I love being able to make a difference and the beautiful thing, you know, about being able to participate in philanthropy is it gives you the opportunity to make a difference in situations that you might never be able to impact otherwise, you know?

I may not be able to personally bring a bottle of clean water to somebody in the majority world that’s struggling to have clean water but there are people that I can give money to who will make sure that those dollars are used in such a way to make sure that happens. To me, that’s like, beautiful.

[0:07:40.0] TU: Yeah.

[0:07:40.4] TD: You know, there are checks I write at the end of the year frankly, that bring me to tears to just have the privilege to make a difference in some of those places.

[0:07:49.0] TU: Yeah, that really resonates with me and I think it – well, our community as well, I have a sense that you know, pharmacists have a giving heart by nature, it’s just what draws people into the procession and one of the things I’ve really been passionate about and building YFP is that we know that if we can help someone really get their own financial house, their own financial plan in order, such that they feel like they’re on solid footing, they’re then in an opportunity and in a position to also be given at a greater level and that’s one of the things we’re most excited about with YFP Gives. 

I’m teasing that a little bit but more information to come here in the future. So, for this interview, as I mentioned, I really want to use your experiences, your expertise as someone who raise funds, and all that you learned in accepting donations, talking with donors, setting up different philanthropic causes and funds, to then shift that perspective to those individuals that are looking to give and what might be some of those considerations as they make giving a part of their financial plan.

So, my first question for you Tom, is, what are those key questions? When you think about sending money to an organization, a nonprofit, you know, key things that we’d want to know about the organization prior to making that gift, and here, I’m also thinking that you know, if it’s an ongoing gift or if it’s a sizeable gift, perhaps these questions are more important. Although, I think in any case people want to feel good about where their dollars are going. What are some of the key questions that people should be considering?

[0:09:18.8] TD: Yeah, these questions scale no matter how much money you have. You know, the first thing, the really hard questions, their questions about you know, I mean, you’re in the financial advising world. I think a really good financial advisor, their first questions for you are going to be, “You know, what are your dreams and goals?”

[0:09:34.0] TU: Yup.

[0:09:34.4] TD: Right? Fundraising to me is really just another form of financial advising. You know, when I was working, you know, at OSU, there were all sorts of things that people could give to, say, at the pharmacy school. You know, they could give the natural products, they could give to pharmacy practice, they could give to scholarships, they could give to all these things, and so the first question for me in that scenario was, “What do you care most about?”

I remember talking to one community pharmacist, someone who had their own practice and they were talking to me about Dr. Biel and how Dr. Biel inspired them. Dr. Biel, for you listeners who don’t know, is this legend of natural products research, a pharmacognosy, who was so kind and so caring and students loved him, and so for that person, even though I expected, “Well, maybe this person would want to do scholarships” what I discovered was they were passionate about Dr. Biel and the difference he made in their life and so they wanted to make a gift that honored him, right?

So, that’s my first question, whether it’s a pharmacy school or somewhere else, “What do you really care about? What changes in the world would you like to see?” I have a good friend who is a master fundraiser. He is a mentor of mine and he often starts these conversations. He’ll pull out a pen, you know, hold the pen up and he said, “Let’s pretend this pen is a magic wand and you can use this magic wand to change anything in the entire world, just so it’s exactly the way you want. What’s that thing you would change?” 

You know because what we’re looking for all the time as fundraisers is, where is that person’s passion intersects with the mission of my organization? And truth be told if you’re a good fundraiser, if you don’t see that intersection, you will less and release. You may even help point them towards an organization that can help them do what they want to do and honestly, that often results in gifts being made down the road because you demonstrate integrity to doing that but yeah. 

So, you want to ask your people, “Tim, what are you passionate about? What changes in the world would you like to see and how could a gift really align with your deepest values? You know, what’s the thing you care most about?” And then you go from there to say, “Well, who are the organizations that I’m aware of that are making a difference in those areas?” So, those are the hard questions.

[0:11:55.2] TU: Yeah.

[0:11:55.5] TD: Then you’d get into the head questions and so those might be, how much can they afford to give? Another question might be, once they start thinking about that, another question that sort of might modify this, what’s the right asset for the gift? They may only be able to give so much in cash but they may have appreciated assets, maybe stocks, or maybe they’ve got a Rembrandt. I don’t know what they might have.

[0:12:22.9] TU: Yup.

[0:12:24.0] TD: But they may have something that might allow them to make a much larger gift. I think about a gift I was able to close at the pharmacy school. You know, it has this beautiful pharmacy practice lab, the biggest gift to that was olive product. In one of the reasons that gift was so large was because the company that made that product, it cost them less to make it.

So, the actual cost to them was less than the value of the gift but to us, we didn’t devalue it. We didn’t say, “Well, this half a million dollars and so in equipment that only cost you 200 to make.” We gave them the full credit of the half million and that’s the full credit the IRS will give you, right? So, maybe you’ve got grain, maybe you’re a pharmacist and you also are a farmer. You can donate that grain to organizations that can even turn around and sell that for market rates.

So, so there’s that and there’s also tax considerations that might come into play and I’m sure you’re well aware of those, Tim. There are going to be and oftentimes, this will intersect with issues of you know, stocks or things that have a higher net worth and what bought them for, those things are going to be things you want to think about, carefully. 

You may want to take a loss in some years. Real estate can also be tricky and things to consider and then lastly, and this gets to maybe some of your other questions but does the organization to thinking have a track record of success in the areas they care about? If you’re going to make a big gift, I might let someone else experiment and see if the new kid on the block is the one to get it done. Unless you’re really persuaded, I might consider that.

[0:13:58.7] TU: Yeah. Great questions, and I love how you divided those, right? Starting with the heart, you know moving to the head, all things that people are thinking about when they’re making a gift and since you mention the IRS, let’s talk about that here for a moment. I think that many in our community, they do start with the heart when they’re giving but they’re also pharmacist, right? 

They want to be efficient, they want to be making sure that they’re optimizing the tax part of their financial plan as well, and so this question comes up a lot around you know, “Is my donation going to be tax deductible?” And there’s not – all nonprofits as far as I know are not created equal, right? There’s C3s, which probably is what 501(c)(3) is most folks are familiar with but not every nonprofit is a 501(c)(3). 

And so, there can be nuances here to consider as it relates to making a gift or making a donation. So, what should somebody be looking for or how can they know that their gift ultimately is going to be tax deductible? If that’s something that they’re really interested in.

[0:14:55.1] TD: Well, my specialty is definitely in the area of 501(c)(3)s and you can know for sure that if an organization is a 501(c)(3), that your gift to them is definitely going to be tax deductible. Now, to check, all you need to do is to go on the tax-exempt organization search site, the IRS and look up the organization by name or their EIN. The other thing that’s helpful about that website is you can also check their 990 and that 990 will also give you some sense for, you know, how much money they’re raising, which you know, may matter to you, that might inform you a little bit about the organization.

[0:15:32.4] TU: I like that. I’ve never actually thought about, you know, I’ve been in nonprofit organizations where I’m involved in the 990 filing, never have thought about it from the giving standpoint to go look up the 990, the organization. Makes a ton of sense. Giving gifts anonymously is something else. I’m interested to hear your thoughts on the – from the perspective of somebody in the organization who is receiving the gift. You know, I think that perhaps, there’s pros and cons from each side of a gift being given anonymously. What has been your experiences here?

[0:16:03.8] TD: Well, so, you know, there’s a lot of things – there’s a lot of reasons you may want to consider an anonymous gift. In terms of the pros towards that is first off, some fates told that there’s greater blessing in giving anonymously and I think there’s some truth to that for sure and otherwise, it can also be kind of fun to have a secret, you know? Nobody knows who gave this gift and you know, hopefully, involved with the organization and kind of have a little chuckle, right? About it.

You know, I think another reason people give anonymously though is because they want to avoid the attention that comes with a large gift. It’s because it’s true, all the nonprofits in the world and there’s what? 1.8 million, something like that, nonprofits, their feelers are out there, they’re paying attention to who is giving to whom in their communities, and the moment word gets out that someone made a gift, a lot of the other organizations like, if they have some connection with that individual, they’re going to be asking themselves, “Huh, I wonder if we can get in front of that person? I wonder if there’s a way that they might find something here that’s worth supporting” right?

You know, and when you give anonymously, you avoid all of that. I mean, it’s the same reasons why if someone wins the Lotto, they may want to just keep that to themselves, right?

[0:17:20.1] TU: Yeah. 

[0:17:20.8] TD: So, those are some of the pros. There are a lot of cons though, I will say. So, if I want to truly make an anonymous gift, it’s going to be really hard to get good follow-up from the organization about the impact of your gift. One way that you could be successful in doing that is by going through a third party. Maybe you’ve got a financial planner or a lawyer, someone you trust that could make a gift to you, on behalf of –

[0:17:48.9] TU: Yeah, makes sense.

[0:17:50.2] TD: Make a gift to an organization on behalf of an individual. The nice thing with that is then you still have a contact person that you can follow up with and can say, “Well, hey, your friend doesn’t want to hear from us directly, could you please pass this information along to them about the difference their gifts made?” That’s a nice thing to be able to do.

Now, another issue, if you want to be receipted, if you want that tax deduction, the person doing the receiving has to know who you are, you know? Many organizations will keep it anonymous beyond that if you ask them, you know, like at large flagship universities, you say to them, “I want to make an anonymous gift.” Someone is going to enter in an anonymous record in the CRM for you. 

That gift’s going to be assigned to that, not to your name as maybe an alum. You know, ultimately though, the person in the gift processing office, they will know who you are and will issue a receipt but I’ve heard of people sending boxes of cash to beloved professors. 

[0:18:59.0] TU: That does not surprise me but it makes sense what you shared in terms of the pros and cons and you know also, at a minimum from the tax standpoint, making sure you have a receipt and you know, I like the idea of a third party if that’s something folks are interested in. I have a feeling most people, I could be wrong, you’re experience here, more than mine is that most people when they say anonymous, they mean anonymous to the community at large, I would think. 

Whereas, you have any information for a receipt, record keeping updates, I think that would be really helpful. For example, if I made an anonymous gift somewhere, I’d be very interested in knowing the impact of that gift. I would be very interested in making sure I have the right documentation for tax purposes but that may just mean it’s not broadcasted that Tim made this donation for this cause. So –

[0:19:41.2] TD: That’s right. So, the terminology that a large foundation might use or a large nonprofit might use, they might say, “Do you want recognition for this or public recognition?”

[0:19:50.7] TU: Makes sense.

[0:19:51.5] TD: And so, you’ll have the option between being an anonymous donor typically, or at least, one that isn’t publicly recognized.

[0:19:57.2] TU: Yeah.

[0:19:58.9] TD: Because another benefit to being known by the organization is that it’s really fun to celebrate a gift with an organization you care about and it can be very meaningful to connect with the beneficiaries you’re supporting. I think about some of the scholarship students that I’ve had the opportunity to work with over the years and getting to see them, meet the people that funded their scholarship and they’re telling stories and there’s just all this positive feeling. That’s something I wouldn’t want to miss out on as a donor.

[0:20:30.1] TU: The other thought I had Tom as you’re just talking there is the potential benefit that comes from motivating and encouraging others. I would presume that giving can often motivate others giving. 

[0:20:41.7] TD: Yeah, that’s right. 

[0:20:43.4] TU: And so especially if there’s you know, colleagues or peers or others that may be in a position also give where their gifts are aligned with the same values and mission that you’re working towards, could the impact, right? The giving in the first place be greater as more people are aware of that gift. So, interesting things to think about there. This one Tom, I’ve always struggled to think, curious to hear you know from someone as a professional in the area. 

Related to how some organizations promote a hundred percent or as close to that as possible goes towards the philanthropic efforts with little to no percent of the gift towards operating overhead expenses and I struggle with this because you know I think first glance as a donor you’re like, “Yeah, heck yeah, I want as much of my gift as possible going towards the cause” right? Whatever that cause may be. 

But as I think about it in terms of like running an organization, there is and probably should be a reasonable and realistic amount of funds that are going to cover expenses that allow that organization to be an effective organization, which the ability to then distribute those funds wouldn’t be there with that overhead to some degree. Now, there’s a lot in between there, right? 

[0:21:57.6] TD: That’s right. 

[0:21:58.3] TU: So, just curious, your thoughts here, and how much does this comes up in conversation from donors? 

[0:22:04.9] TD: Well, I love this question. You know, I brought it up, my wife and I were talking about it over coffee yesterday morning and I think we spent 45 minutes discussing it. It’s funny that you’re the one asking me though because it reminds me a lot of the pharmacy world. There are executives and retailers, who shall not be named, and they’re thinking about how effective is this pharmacy. 

And they’re thinking about it in terms of, “Well, how much money does it cost us to run this pharmacy?” and so their response is to reduce cost in order to get a more effective pharmacy but then as you overwork your pharmacists, you understaff pharmacies, what do you end up having? You have a drop in quality care, quality outcomes, right? 

[0:22:47.6] TU: Yeah. 

[0:22:48.1] TD: And so, there is a real concern, a legitimate concern that there are people out there who start nonprofits where they’re taking 80% of the money’s raised and they’re paying themselves ridiculous salaries and not really helping people out and I think that’s where a lot of this conversation got started and so because of folks like that within my industry, organizations like Charity Navigator in the past have ranked nonprofits really on their cost to raise a dollar. 

That is how much of the dollar that you donate is going to go towards overhead. So, that kind of creates really some problems, really some perverse incentives because you might have an organization that’s way understaffed. They’ve got their fundraiser, maybe they have one person supporting them. Rule of thumb in my profession, you might want two or three people behind the scenes for every one fundraiser you have to make sure that that fundraiser is used effectively, right? 

So anyway, you might have a nonprofit that’s really operating on kind of a skeleton crew, really maybe not writing acknowledgment letters quickly because they just don’t have enough people to process the gifts, you know all those sorts of things could be happening and they’re going to look good on paper. They may even get an award nationally for being a really lean organization but in reality, because of that fear of investing in infrastructure, they’re not doing their job well. 

So really, what you want to do in the same way, you know in your profession Tim, in pharmacy there, you want to look at outcomes. You want to look at evidence-based health outcomes. Well, with any organization, now each nonprofit is going to have a different set of quantifiable outcomes that they’re looking to get but those are the things you want to try to look at and now the trick is and you probably know this too in healthcare, it’s harder to get that number. 

It is way easier for me as a nonprofit to just look at that cost to raise the dollar number and say, “Well, I’m done” right? Than actually getting out into the field, spending time evaluating results, and really trying to not just look at the front end but also the what are the backend kind of trickle-down consequences. I mean, we could, you and I could probably talk for hours about the money in having a pharmacist involved in healthcare saves. 

But savings isn’t always considered a profit, right? So, it’s the same sort of question for both industries. 

[0:25:24.3] TU: Yeah. It reminds me of school rankings, you know? It’s one of the things I’ve got beef with of like if it’s an easy objective number to capture you can quickly scale it, right? It creates “apples to apples” but it doesn’t, right? Because it’s not measuring the harder-to-measure softer components that really do matter and I think what you are sharing here is a great one and if you look at the cost of a nonprofit and what they’re spending and how far those dollars go that are raised, that’s a math equation, right? 

When you get to the details of the impact and the stories you mentioned, kind of getting out to the field to really do some of that hard work, that takes a lot of time and it’s different of course, depending on the giving area that we’re talking about. So, great perspective there. I want to go back to the tax piece and we’ve talked a little bit on the show before, we had our CPA on the show, some of our tax professionals on our team. 

And one of the strategies they talk about, which is often overlooked as part of the financial plan is bunching donations. So, depending on someone’s tax situation, depending on how much they’re giving, depending on the level of giving and the proximity of that to the standard deduction, this may or may not make sense but I think we’re going to see this coming up more and more in our community.

And so, is this something you would frequently see employed by those that were giving, where you know, they were bunching it where they might be giving every other year or at specific periods of time to be able to take advantage of some of those tax benefits? 

[0:26:55.9] TD: I see what you’re saying. So, by bunching what you’re saying is, “I’m going to maybe I’ll upfront my giving because of some tax advantage” versus maybe later or I might delay it because of some other, you know, maybe an income bubble that I’m expecting, is that right? 

[0:27:12.8] TU: Yeah, exactly, and if you know, we’re talking not major, major gifts. Obviously, there’s you know, different tax implications and parts of the financial plan to consider there. I’m thinking about you know, folks that may be giving 10, 15% of their income but when you think about that relative to the standard deduction, it may make sense where one year, they just take the standard deduction and then the next year, they double up on their giving to be able to really maximize it in that following year. 

So, I was just curious, and maybe more broadly here like how often does the tax deficiency questions, become a part of the plan, or are those that typically in this position to give, they’re also working with a tax professional or a planner that’s helping guide them there? 

[0:27:56.5] TD: Yeah, so if I’m eligible for the standard deduction and it’s not to my advantage to itemize, usually these are conversations that come up with a gift officer at a nonprofit. You know usually if I’m aware of someone who is thinking through a tax situation, it’s usually going to be with a higher-end donor who is thinking about for example, selling business and they know, “Hey, I’m going to have a big blip, a big raise in my income here in three years.”

You know, maybe they’ve got a structured buyout, on a dental practice or a pharmacy. I’m going to make a $50,000 pledge but I’m going to give you $5,000 a year the first couple of years and then the last three years, you know I’m really going to build that up or it could happen in reverse. You know, another interesting thing with taxes and those types of income bubbles that people don’t think about, and since you’ve got a big viewership maybe people will think about this down the road. 

If you’ve got a privately held company and you’ve got privately held stock and you’re about to sell, there are some really awesome strategies and I’m no accountant, where you can give away some of that privately held stock to charities you care about or even to family members so that when that big income event happens when you sell, you don’t get nailed. 

I mean, you’ve gotten rid of the assets before you’re taking the income, and so the nonprofit that you’re supporting is going to get this huge gift potentially without having to pay any taxes at all on it. 

[0:29:37.1] TU: Yeah, because they’re going to get exactly, yeah. 

[0:29:39.0] TD: But the thing is, yeah, you can’t do this though after the sale has gone through, so you’ve got to have this all worked out in advance. So, for any of your listeners that may have that happen, that’s something to think about now in advance of the fact.

[0:29:52.4] TU: Yeah, that’s really interesting and some I hadn’t thought about before but it makes sense, privately held companies, you have stock if you’re able to transfer that stock prior to the purchase, the purchase happens, dollars on the purchase go directly to the nonprofit, therefore, it’s not coming to you as taxable income. So, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. 

Tom, the last question I wanted to ask you before we begin to wrap up is I think you posted something or maybe commented on something on LinkedIn a month or two that got me thinking about some of the defining characteristics of those that are making large gifts. You know essentially, what are those defining characteristics of the bigger gifts that are coming in from the folks that are “wealthier?” 

You know, I’m thinking about what was their career path, like what is the level of education, or the trajectory of their education? Are there any themes that you’ve noticed through the years, decades now, right? I guess we can say of experience that you’ve had in those that are wealthy making large gifts and some of the characteristics of where that wealth has come from. 

[0:30:55.7] TD: Absolutely. I guess number one is that employees don’t tend to do as well as business owners and that’s probably pretty intuitive. You know, the bulk of the folks that I have worked with over the years, have been dentists or pharmacists just due to the 15 years they’ve spent at OSU and I’ll tell you both professions tend to do very well. They come out making a strong salary. 

But the ones who’ve really exceeded their peers usually have some sort of side gig or additional thing they’re kind of doing above and beyond their practice and so they’re taking some of their good income and not spending it but investing it in a number of areas and I’ll tell you some real patterns have come through that have been really influential on me like I’m a real estate investor today and part of that is because of all the dentists and pharmacists that I saw who are just doing fantastic. 

I mean, my own dentist that I grew up with I never thought about it but his practice was in an apartment building on the first floor. Well, guess what? He owned the entire thing and even better, when he retired, he sold his practice and then converted his old office into a living place for him and his wife, right? 

[0:32:07.5] TU: That’s awesome, yeah. 

[0:32:08.2] TD: So it’s like really providing for himself. In retirement, he still got that monthly income from the other units not to mention the equity that I’m betting the building has a ton of equity at this. It’s in an area close to the new Intel plant that’s going in. 

[0:32:25.4] TU: Oh, yes. 

[0:32:26.3] TD: But I think of a pharmacist, you know, he is no longer in this world but everyone knows his name because it’s on the James Cancer Center but he started out building strip malls to put his pharmacy in, right? And now, he’s got a cancer research institute named after him because he realized that building strip malls could make him a lot more money than his pharmacy degree could. 

Another pharmacist I knew started buying up commercial real estate in a college town and eventually, he sold his practice and this was – he was working more in kind of that golden age of independent pharmacy and all that but he ended up selling like so many did to one of the big chains. His kids, who were pharmacists, continued working in that chain pharmacy but boy, that family has a lot of generational wealth now because they still own really the entire main strip in that college town. 

So, there’s all this income and all this equity that’s coming in. Now, another area I’ve seen health science professionals become very wealthy is through banking. I would think of one guy and he was starting a dental practice probably back in the 50s or 60s, it’s probably the 50s and the bank would have loaned to him to start a practice and he figured it out eventually but he ended up starting his own bank because he felt like the other bank, you know, they were a bunch of bums. 

And you know eventually, that community bank gets purchased by a larger bank. The next thing you know, there’s just all these resources and I’ve seen that a number of times where people have been invited onto the board of a regional bank, and then that bank gets purchased and so you’ve got shares in it and you do very well. So, my advice to anyone listening right now is if you’re invited to be on the board of a community bank say yes. 

Now, one thing I’ll tell you what not to do, don’t invest in a golf course, don’t start a golf course even if you love golf. This is purely anecdotal, I have no research to back it up but everyone that I have known that you know and pharmacists and dentists historically have been big fans of golf, they decided to start a golf course. It’s almost always lost their money, I’m just saying. 

[0:34:31.3] TU: Interesting, yeah.

[0:34:32.4] TD: Yeah. 

[0:34:32.9] TU: And you know, one of the things I visualize often and I think you describe this really well is many different pathways to building wealth, of course, right? There is no one right way but a visual that keeps coming back to me is a three-legged stool of business, real estate, and what I would call more just traditional investments, right? Traditional investments would be you know, your 401(k)s, your IRAs, your HSAs, your brokerage accounts. 

Probably where many pharmacists might have the vast majority if not all of their investments in and then within real estate, as we talk about often on our Real Estate Investing Podcast that we publish, there are a ton of ways you can go, in real estate. Certainly not for everyone, whether it’s based on interest, risk tolerance, whatever may be the reason. 

But the range of passive to active, right? There is a lot, you can to your comment about being the bank, you can be a hard money lender. Obviously, there’s risk involved there, pharmacists that are involved in syndications, pharmacists that are involved in short-term rentals, mid-term rentals, typical long-term buy and hold, fix and flips. I mean, there is just a myriad of ways that you can be involved, commercial versus residential. 

And then on the business side, I’m a huge fan of not only business for the opportunities to uncap your income and take advantage of the tax roles, which are very favorable to small businesses, especially here in Ohio but also hopefully, to be building an asset that has an equity value that transcends the income you’re even earning in the business and that is kind of the makeup that I often think about is how can you put those three things together. 

And you know, you may be able to not only diversify from those three legs but within those three legs, there’s also opportunities for diversification. So, I just loved how you described it. I think there is so many different ways and one of the take-home points I have there Tom, and you have a unique perspective being in the role, getting a chance to meet and talk with all these people, especially if you grew up in a traditional household, right? 

We put our money in the bank, you buy a home, you put money in a 401(k), you get a good job, just go meet people that have done interesting things, right? And maybe some of those interesting things are more traditional. You know, they own a business, they buy real estate as the long-term rentals but more and more of those conversations, especially where you can see things that maybe aren’t within the realm of what you’re thinking, whether or not you choose to invest in those pathways. 

You have the risk tolerance or you want to or you have the cash, it just opens up your thinking when you can start to have those conversations and you just came to mind as I thought about how many times when you are sitting across from someone where you personally gained, you’re like, “Oh, wow, that’s really interesting” right? That’s really cool wealth-building strategy and to be able to see that from you know, the point of the giver as well is really neat. 

[0:37:23.2] TD: Well, and I know that your listeners are going to be predominantly pharmacists, the thing that you may not all see since you are kind of swimming, you know, in that fish bowl, your pharmacy is such a great degree to have. You know, when I think about like dentistry or even medicine probably to a lesser degree, nearly, I don’t know, probably 90% or higher of all the people with those degrees pretty much limited to practicing and that may include business ownership, which is great or teaching specifically in that career. 

It was very rare for me to run across people that were doing anything out of outside of that profession. You know, when I went to pharmacy and part of it might be the fact that for the longest time, it was undergraduate degree for a lot of people but I saw this incredible diversity of individuals in all sorts of different fascinating careers like there is one guy that we interviewed for the alumni magazine and he developed a vitamin company. 

You know, that became huge in Europe and he’s doing just great. He was a 1950s grad and everybody thought he was crazy and he’s laughed all the way to the bank, he’s been very successful. You know, not to mention the real estate people, there are folks in technology, you know there are folks with master’s degree that you know, you used to be associated with and that you have and he developed a very cool software company, right? 

So, there are just so many things pharmacists can do with their degrees entrepreneurially that can lead to their success. 

[0:38:59.0] TU: That’s great and we talk so much in pharmacy about networking from a professional standpoint but I also like to think about networking in the context of finances and the context of building wealth, right? There’s just so much to be learned, meeting people, reading, listening to podcasts, you know just learning about the different ways and pathways that people have done it before. 

So, Tom, as we wrap up, what’s the best place that our listeners can go to connect with you and to follow the work that you’re doing? 

[0:39:26.1] TD: Sure. Well, look me up on LinkedIn, I’m certainly visible there. I also have a website, abundantvision.net, it’s up right now. We’re actually working on a rework for it, so that will be launching probably the end of August but yeah, please connect with me on social media. I’d love to chat more with anyone that has questions about you know, how to give money away effectively or even you know, how they might want to you know, take steps to start a nonprofit.

[0:39:50.0] TU: Love it. Thank you so much, Tom. I really appreciate your time. 

[0:39:52.5] TD: Great, thanks so much, Tim. 

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:39:54.7] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information on the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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