Category: Giving

Joe Baker, personal finance instructor, returns for inspiring conversation about purposeful living, the power of mentorship, and the enduring impact of a life well-lived.

Episode Summary

In this episode, we welcome back Joe Baker, MBA for his third appearance on the show. Joe first joined us in 2019 with his former student Blake Johnson, where they shared the inspiring story of their debt-free journey, highlighting the pivotal role Joe played in Blake’s success. In 2020, Joe returned to discuss his book, Baker’s Dirty Dozen Principles for Financial Independence, sharing his expert insights on achieving financial freedom.

This time, we’re shifting focus to explore the themes of living and leaving a legacy. Joe opens up about the lasting impact he hopes to make through his teaching, his book co-authored with his daughter, Lindsey, and his dedication to giving back. He shares the story behind his two endowed scholarships, demonstrating his commitment to supporting and uplifting his community. 

Join us for an inspiring conversation about purposeful living, the power of mentorship, and the enduring impact of a life well-lived.

About Today’s Guest

Joe Baker is an instructor at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences College of Pharmacy, where he has been teaching personal finance for over twenty-five years. He holds a Bachelor of Business Administration from Southern Arkansas University and a Master of Business Administration from the University of Central Arkansas. Joe retired in 2019 from Pharmacists Mutual Company, where he spent twenty-eight years providing insurance and financial services to pharmacists across Arkansas.

As part of his commitment to giving back to the community, Joe has endowed two scholarships. The first supports students from his hometown of Emerson, Arkansas, who are enrolled at Southern Arkansas University. The second scholarship benefits students at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences College of Pharmacy who attended Southern Arkansas University.

Joe has been a guest speaker for academic and corporate groups nationwide, promoting financial literacy. Most recently, he co-authored a book on personal finance with his daughter, Lindsey Baker, titled Baker’s Dirty Dozen Principles for Financial Independence. Published in December 2020, the book is filled with humor and stories from contributors, offering a lively and engaging introduction to personal finance. It was ranked the #1 book by “Financial Education For Everybody,” a partner of Amazon, in their Financial Literature Category, and was also recognized by GoBankingRates.com as one of the “10 Financial Books That Will Change Your Life (and Finances).”

Joe and his wife Brenda reside in Little Rock, Arkansas.

Key Points from the Episode

• Joe Baker’s Introduction and Background [0:00]
• Joe’s Career in Pharmacy and Teaching [5:23]
• Impact of Financial Education and Personal Stories [9:03]
• Teaching Methods and Student Engagement [21:33]
• Writing and Publishing “Baker’s Dirty Dozen Principles for Financial Independence” [30:10]
• Philanthropic Giving and Endowed Scholarships [37:44]
• Final Thoughts and Encouragement [46:10]

Episode Highlights

“I didn’t even make six figures until I was 47 years old, and became debt free by age 50. And it’s amazing the money you can accumulate when you’re debt free. Then I became a millionaire, and then doubled that in just a few short years. And I don’t say that to brag. I just tell people I got a late start.” Joe Baker [4:06]

“It’s not how much you make, it’s how much you keep, but then I added to it, it’s not how much you keep, but it’s how much you give away.” Joe Baker [42:01]

“Giving back does not have to be a monetary situation. It could be being the best father, being the best husband, giving in those respects. It could be at your place of worship, giving of your time, your efforts, your leadership, your mentors. It doesn’t have to be financial. It can be any of those ways. It will make you feel good and it’ll be a win-win.” Joe Baker [45:41]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

• YFP 082: Debt Free Theme Hour with the Teacher and Pupil
• YFP Episode 177: New Book: Baker’s Dirty Dozen Principles for Financial Independence
• I Will Teach You to be Rich by Ramit Sethi
• Baker’s Dirty Dozen Principles for Financial Independence
• Joe Baker on LinkedIn
• Subscribe to the YFP Newsletter
• Tim Ulbrich on LinkedIn
• YFP on Instagram
• YFP Facebook Group
• YFP Book a Discovery Call
• YFP Disclaimer

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich  00:00

Hey everybody. Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, I welcome Joe Baker for his third appearance on the show. Joe first joined us in 2019 alongside his former student, Blake Johnson, where they shared an inspiring, Debt Free Journey that highlighted the incredible impact Joe had on Blake’s journey. Then, in 2020 Joe returned to discuss his book, Baker’s Dirty Dozen principles for Financial Independence. In this episode, we’re taking a new direction, focusing on the themes of living and leaving a legacy. Specifically, we discussed the profound legacy Joe is creating through his teaching, his book written alongside his daughter, Lindsey, and his philanthropic efforts, including endowing two scholarships that give back to his community. All right, let’s jump into my interview on living and leaving a legacy with Joe Baker. Joe, welcome to the show.

Joe Baker  00:54

Thank you, Tim.

Tim Ulbrich  00:56

This episode, I don’t know if you know this, this episode of officially makes you a three time guest on the YFP podcast. So we’re so glad to have you back.

Joe Baker  01:04

Nice. Great to be back.

Tim Ulbrich  01:06

So we’ll give our listeners some quick history. We had you first on back in 2019 along with a former student of yours, and you may remember Blake Johnson. This was on episode 82 Blake shared his Debt Free Journey and the impact that you had on his journey, which I think fits nicely into the topic of living and leaving a legacy today, and how you have taught and helped others. And then we had you back on Episode 177 when you launched your book Baker’s Dirty Dozen: Principles for Financial Independence. We’ll link to both of those episodes in the show notes. But Joe, for those that maybe didn’t catch those episodes and don’t know who Joe is. Give us a brief introduction.

Joe Baker  01:42

Okay, well, sounds good. I was actually raised in a very low class family down on the Arkansas, Louisiana line. And for those that don’t know me, I’ve told the story many times. We didn’t even have an indoor toilet till I was nine years old. So a lot of people just can’t even imagine that. So my financial journey had not really started then and I tell everyone, my financial journey didn’t really start until I was 30 years old. That’s when I got married and ended up marrying a math teacher who exposed me to the time value of money, and it was just like a light bulb went off. I said, Wow, I was even, even though I was a business major. I said, I did not know this.

Tim Ulbrich  02:31

How’s that for a wedding gift, by the way?

Joe Baker  02:33

You know, I came into the situation kind of like in the movie, Oh Brother, Where Art Thou? You know, I didn’t have much to offer, but she saw that I was bonafide and I had something to give. I had a TV and a VCR. You can Google that, Tim, and a bed without a headboard. So I came in and with a little credit card debt. So I was quite a catch financially, but there, there was potential there, and I was bonafide, and by knowing or seeing the time value of money, it was just like a light bulb went off, as I said earlier, and I said, I’m already starting in my 30s, and that’s why, when I’m teaching or speaking to groups, I said, don’t worry if you’re in your 30s or even in your 40s. Yes, you have to catch up, but you can make a difference financially. You know, I’ve outlined this in my book, and I’m pretty much an open book when I tell my story, I didn’t even make six figures until I was 47 years old, and became debt free by age 50. And it’s amazing, the money you can accumulate when you’re debt free and and obviously became a millionaire, and then doubled that in just a few short years. And I don’t say that to brag. I just tell people I’ve got, I got a late start. And I to my pharmacy audience, the students especially, I say, you know, you’re, you’re starting off making six figures, whereas I was at 47 so you know, it’s a great story to tell because of my background from day one, when I was born. So but that’s my financial journey and and everything that I’ve lived since birth is is been able to relate to people out there about, yes, you can do this. You know, if I could do it, is even though it was a little later than I wanted to but you can as well. 

Joe Baker  04:13

You shared with me once before, Joe, I don’t know if you remember this, but you said to me, quote, my biggest financial accomplishment came from marrying a high school math teacher.

Joe Baker  04:57

I did not know I told you that, but that. Is the truth. It’s amazing. I think that’s chapter two in my book. Make sure you and your significant other are on the same financial page. And that is so true. You know, of all the financial decisions out there, you know, marrying someone that that makes a world of difference. 

Tim Ulbrich  05:23

So you have a strong connection to the profession. Not not a pharmacist yourself, but you’ve been involved in the profession for many years. Tell our listeners more about your background and career that’s connected you to the profession of pharmacy.

Joe Baker  05:35

I really got introduced to pharmacy in 1991 when I went to work for Pharmacist Mutual Insurance, and I worked for them for 28 years as the Arkansas rep, and I tell you, the Arkansas pharmacist and pharmacists across the country that I’ve gotten to know the best class of people, I have just enjoyed it. I miss the day to day being with them, and I can’t imagine my life right now not being involved some way with pharmacy or or pharmacy students. So did that for 28 years, retired in 2019 but I have been teaching at University of Arkansas, College of Pharmacy for 25 years, a personal finance elective, and started that in the fall of 99 and that’s another thing I say each semester. I said, I don’t know if I can keep doing this. And that first day, if not, the first thing, second day, I said, this is great. I love it. And you’ve talked you know what it’s like? You get that immediate feedback. They’re like sponges, and that is part of my I know the topic today is giving back. Giving back is so easy for me in this respect, because it’s for selfish reasons. I feel good. I feel sometimes like I’m an entertainer on a cruise ship, because you never know what’s coming up. You’re interacting with the audience and, and I like to tell stories and and they laugh a lot, not because of the grade, but because we’re having a good time in there. And and try to make it fun So, and that’s what I tell the students. I said, you know, there’s no reason why we can’t make this fun. It is about money. But been doing that, and I did do for about four years at Harding, College of Pharmacy. That’s the other university in the state, but, but the drive was pretty tough to go back and forth there. But also speak to groups across the country and and I have two presentations. One is with Pharmacist Mutual. They still contract with me, or in a contract with them, to do risk management talks. Whenever I do a risk management talk, I try to talk the school into it. Let me do a financial talk as well. Dovetail it in together. And sometimes I go and just do the financial talk, and sometimes I do the just risk management talk, but I always try to give, if it’s a risk management only, some financial information, and by the way, I always ask two questions whenever I’m before any audience. One, have you ever heard of Pharmacist Mutual Insurance. And two, have you ever heard ofYour Financial Pharmacist? And I do that because there’s no other organization that I know that does what you guys do, and it makes my job a little bit easier for to bring home some points about finances, and that’s what I’ve been doing since retirement. I don’t I’m not making a whole lot of money, if any, in retirement, but I sure am having a blast. It has been fun to get with the pharmacy students on the road and teaching them in class. They’re just, they’re just a hoot.

Tim Ulbrich  08:59

Yeah, yeah, having a blast and having a massive impact. You know, you mentioned Hey for selfish reasons, and I know what you’re referring to, that feeling when you’re with a group and you see some of the light bulbs go off, the connections start to be made. People start to make some pivots and decisions, and momentum is built. And, you know, look, look no further than episode 82 where you and Blake were talking about his journey becoming debt free, the impact you had on his journey. And look at the great things Blake is doing in his own financial plan that allowed him, not not only through getting debt free, but allowed him to propel into real estate investing and be on a path towards financial independence and giving, I mean, talk about generational impact, and obviously his continuation of that with his family as well. So that’s one example. I know you’ve had a profound impact on Blair Thielemeyer. We’ve had her on the show several times, and hundreds and hundreds of others that I’ve never had the opportunity to interact with. So we’re going to get more into that in a little bit. I want to ask you, though, Joe, you may remember this moment back in 2019. You and I were sitting next to each other at FinCon, which is a conference for basically, financial nerds, right, bloggers and podcasters and authors, and you and I were sitting at a keynote next to each other, and the keynote was being delivered by Ramit Sethi. And Ramit Sethi, for those that know is as the author of the book, I Will Teach You To Be Rich. And at the time you you had your book, I think, in an early draft form, if I remember right. And from that keynote, you’re like, wait a minute, I need to pivot and rewrite chapter one. What jumped out to during that keynote that shifted your thinking, especially given that you had been down this road before, like there was something that really jumped off the page here in that moment. 

Joe Baker  10:43

Oh, it was. As they say, it was an aha moment. And it was because I was, I had the early draft going of my book, and it was going to be, I don’t say, pretty typical of other financial books or personal finance books, but it was along the line of, don’t do this, don’t do this, don’t do this. You know, if you, if you buy a Starbucks latte every day, instead of putting up money, you’re gonna this is gonna cost you that. Don’t do that, don’t do this. And it was pretty negative. And when, when Sethi said, you know, if you want to go out there, and I’m paraphrasing, but it’s pretty close, if you want to go out there and have a latte, have a latte.And a light bulb just went off, and I don’t know if you remember, I turned to you and I said, I have just changed the focus of several chapters in my book. I went from telling people don’t do this, don’t do that, but do what you want, but they are opportunity costs. Consequences for it. Whatever you do is like my Pappy used to always say, he says, Whatever floats your boat. He would say that all the time, and that’s what it is here. If you want to buy a new vehicle, that’s fine, but let’s look at the opportunity cost. Go in it with an open eye, because his brother, Dave Ramsey says, there, you know, the depreciation all that. But don’t be so focused on the negative. I can’t do this, I can’t do this, can’t do that. But I love Paula Pants said one time, says you can afford anything, you just can’t afford everything. And I love that quote, and I have used it from time to time, and that is so true, because you’re out there and you’re focused on things to buy and not buy, and that’s what I did in my book. And also in class, I’m I’m telling them, actually, I show them, I say, Well, if you don’t spend your money here, let’s look at the opportunity cost, and let’s go over here and see what that money can be spent for somewhere else. I’m not telling you what to spend the money on. It’s like my sister and brother in law, and hopefully they won’t hear this podcast, but they in 34 years, they’ve owned 31 new vehicles purchased, and there’s an opportunity cost there. Now they make plenty of money, and that’s there’s no problem, and they’re happy. They enjoy it, as my pappy says, Whatever floats your boat. So they’re okay with that, and I’m okay with it too, but there is an opportunity cost by buying new vehicles all the time, and they understand that. But who am I to tell someone they can or cannot buy something. I just want to point out the ramifications if you’re if you’re doing that and and it has been so ingrained in my mind I can afford just about anything, not everything, but just about anything. But I am so, still so stingy with money. It irks me when I spend any money, and that’s just because many years of being dogmatic and the way we spend money, but, but that’s okay,

Tim Ulbrich  14:12

And the concept of that keynote, which has stuck with me forever since we heard it as well, was, was what he was referring to there, he calls in his book money dials. You know, so find the things that actually matter to you in the financial plan. Not other people, but matter to you, and dial those up. Make make them a priority, but for the things that you don’t really care about, like, stop spending money on those things, right? His example that he gives is, for him, it’s convenience. Like he’s all about convenience and technology and investing in those but, you know, he lives in an apartment in New York City. He’s not focused on a car. Cars don’t really matter to him. Like, to your point, everyone’s out there to define what what those are, but there’s an opportunity cost, and there’s an opportunity cost on both sides. You know, this is something that. Has stayed with me since reading Die with Zero by Bill Perkins, that you know, there also is an opportunity cost of potentially over saving. Now, what does that mean? And what does that exactly look like? Obviously, that’s where we start to get in the details. But there’s a balance between today and tomorrow, and I think that’s what he was really getting at in that keynote. And as you articulated well so many books, it’s cut this. Cut that if you don’t go by the latte, and you compound it over 35 years, it could have been X 1000s of dollars. Well, of course, right? But the point he’s making is that for some people, they really enjoy the experience of the latte. So be it. For other people, they could care less. So stop sending money on the latte and direct it elsewhere. So yeah, that was a great moment. And I remember you revising the manuscript and then sending it to me, by the way, in a paper copy in a manila folder? 

Joe Baker  15:47

Old school.

Tim Ulbrich  15:51

All right, so I want to talk about three areas around living and leaving a legacy that I think you just have role modeled incredibly well. And are three areas that I desire to follow in your path as well. And those three areas relate to living and leaving a legacy and teaching others. We’ll talk about that a little bit more. In the book that you wrote that will continue to endure and help others into the future, and then also through some of the philanthropic giving that you’ve done through some scholarships and other parts. So let’s take each one of those, one by one when it comes to teaching. You mentioned this a little bit in your introduction. You’ve been teaching personal finance since 1999 so going on 25 years now, which is incredible. What got you started in that journey when you began to teach? And obviously that would grow and evolve over time, but what was the initial step into saying, Hey, I feel like I’m at a place where not only can I implement this in my own financial plan, but I really feel like I can help others, especially others that are just getting started. 

Joe Baker  16:52

That’s a good question. You know, I was once a high school teacher, and I enjoyed it so much for the same reasons, and I would have been in an education even as of today if one of Chris, a friend of mine, who was Secretary of State of Arkansas, ran for Congress, and he asked me to work in his campaign. So I quit that job and and as strange as it goes, we lost in the runoff by two percentage points. So it changed everything, because I’d have been in Washington and all that, who knows, political junkie but, but because of the loss, gravitated out of that. But working at Pharmacist Mutual, I said, you know, there’s still something that I’d like to do, education wise, because when I was with with them, when I’d go out and work with pharmacists, I was always trying to teach. That was my idea of sales. You know, let me just teach you what some of the exposures are, and we’ll see if we can work out a solution for that. And then one time, I was at a registration at the University of Arkansas, College of Pharmacy, and I was just speaking with the dean, and the assistant dean told them about my love of teaching. And I don’t know who came up with it first, but someone said our students are making a lot of money when they get out back then, and, you know, late 90s, it was like 45,000 and they said, you know, they’re they really need some financial guidance. And I said, Well, let me see if I can put together something and, and that’s where we are today, after 25 years. And I will say it is the most popular elective, and I won’t say that’s because of me, but because of the material, because most people are not exposed to some of these tenants that we know in financial terms, like time, value, money, opportunity costs, Roth IRA, mutual funds, ETFs and all those things. And it has, it has just been a blessing to be able to teach the students. You mentioned Blake Johnson. You know, you never know this is almost like an evangelical feel to it. When you’re teaching about personal finance, you don’t know whose life you’re touching, you know, I didn’t even know you mentioned Blair earlier. I didn’t even know that I had any influence at all. Believe it or not, she was pretty quiet in class. But with Blake, you know, today, he’s not only highly financially successful in his own right, and I think he’s 36 maybe, but he is doing basically the same thing as being a facilitator at his church with Dave Ramsey’s course. So I look at that and say, you know, I like to think that I had something to do with that. And. So I see that and I and it gives me the feedback. You know, at least, I think I’m doing something good. And so forgot the actual question there, but, but that is part of my giving back is teaching. Obviously, I wouldn’t do it if, if it didn’t make me feel good, and, and a lot of this giving, and I’ll just say it right up front, Doctor House on the TV show House MD, I don’t know if you remember, he was pretty cynical. He made a statement one time. And I’ll paraphrase all  this giving and and helping others is just selfish in nature, or something like that. And I said, Well, that’s probably true, and it is true that it does make me feel good. If I set up a scholarship or teach or hand out a Starbucks card to somebody that’s doing great work that, you know, just some recognition, it does make me feel good. But why can’t there be a 50/50, win-win. You’re helping someone else. You’re helping yourself by feeling good. So, you know, what’s the downside here?

Tim Ulbrich  21:07

Yeah, I think both things can be true. I feel the same way, right? There can be an intrinsic value, you know? I think that’s probably a part of how we were wired and designed. But that can also have a benefit and impact on others that continue on to others as well. And I think that’s one of the cool things. As you share your story, when someone like Blair reaches out and references you as having an impact, you’re like, I had no idea, right, right? And you know, how many other students, how many students do you think you’ve reached and taught across those courses?

Joe Baker  21:36

Well, most years I’ve been teaching both semesters, and I kept up with it for a while. My classes are anywhere from 40 to 70 students. Most years were two semesters, and then you have hard I have no idea. But you know, if I only had three in a class, I would still teach the class, because I would feel that those three really want to be there. And if I can impact one person, whether it’s teaching a class or speaking at a conference, or just going on just any, any type of program, or just sitting down showing someone some of the numbers that I think it’s a job well done. Joe,

Tim Ulbrich  22:32

do you have a favorite activity within the course that you feel like really helps the students make a connection to a particular topic?

Joe Baker  22:39

Good question, and I use this when I’m speaking on their so called final exam. I don’t really give exams. I say, you know, attendance is crucial. That’s your grade, but your your lifetime, is your final exam. And and I don’t have to worry about you know, students being absent, because I say, any day that you’re missing could be worth a million dollars, and that usually has their attention. But on their official or unofficial final exam, I have them do one project. I say, Okay, you’re you’re p3 you’re graduating next year, in little over a year, you’re going to do what I’m about to tell you on this final exam. I give them a scenario. I say you’re making 120,000 a year with certain parameters. And it’s a a 401K practicum, okay? And I say, let’s go through this. You pick out how much you’re going to put into your 401 K, your contributions, the typical matching from your employer. Then you pick out whatever funds you want. I give them a selection, just like you would if you had a 401 K, enrollment at your employer. And then I say, okay, get that amount. We’re going to determine what your rate return would be. And I give them a little chart here. If you’re 75% stocks, you’re probably going to make eight to 9% but then I get all that information, and then I show I have them a financial calculator website, which I think you’ve seen. And I say, Okay, go through here and you tell me what you put in all this information, your age, how much you’re contributing, your rate of return, hypothetically you’re matching, and tell me what you’re going to have at age 60. And it is, it is an eye opener for them. And then I say, it’s, I said, this is open book, open neighbor. You talk to your neighbors, because if you’re doing an actual enrollment, you’re going to be asking for your co workers opinion, yeah, and they, I had one student said, yes, if I could just started one year earlier, I’d have an extra $2 million Dollars. And I said, mission accomplished, because all those are contributing factors as far as what you’re going to have one day. But I will say this, I have changed that somewhat. This last semester, I instituted something a little different. I say, Okay, you say, I can’t envision being at 60 or 65 and retiring. Why do I need to save all this money for something that I may not live to see, I may not be physically able to enjoy it? I said, Okay, well, fair enough that is, that’s a very fair question, because I am 69 as I stated earlier, half of my friends, relatives and acquaintances, I would say, are either gone or they’re not physically able to travel or do anything else. Now I said, I understand that, so let’s use time value of money and do something a little different. And this is probably off the subject today, but, but I think it’s significant. I said, Okay, we’re thinking that. Let’s just see if we can’t what would happen if we maxed out on your 401, K for just say, 10 years, 26 to 36 just like, kind of like what we did an example before, and then at age 36 after 10 years, then turn around and only contribute equal to your employer, match and see what it comes up to. And it’s still millions of dollars. And I said, you know, you’ve got all that extra money now, if you just sacrifice a little bit for 10 years. And then, yeah, I mean, it is, and we do that, I’m going to do that exercise now, because I know in a lot of their minds, it says, I don’t know if I just want to sacrifice my whole life. Yeah, and that is fair enough. And now that I’m at this age, I am seeing it where people have stayed up their whole life and what do they have it’s not able to enjoy it. So let’s, let’s use the time value of money and do something a little different. So anyway, that’s I’ve changed my MO a little bit, even in my talks, I’m using that as an example. I say, okay, you know, if you don’t want to do that your whole life, let’s, let’s do something else. 

Tim Ulbrich  27:31

I think what you’re doing there, and I’m sure you’ve made this connection, is it’s an actual representation of what you shifted in your book with chapter one that we just talked about, right? It’s this balance we talk about so often on the show, between, hey, yes, we’ve got to save for the future. We want to be ready and prepared. We don’t want to be caught off guard, right? But we also got to figure out a way to enjoy and live a rich life today. Both things can be true and but both can be done if we’re planning advance. And Joe, there’s actually a name for this now called Coast fi. Coast FI, standing for financial independence. It’s a sub, it’s a subset of the FIRE movement. And the idea, the idea is aggressive savings early for a defined period of time, and then you’re coasting

Joe Baker  28:16

Just when I thought I’d come up with something new. I know. 

Tim Ulbrich  28:19

I did this unintentionally, actually, where I don’t know if I shared this with you before, but early in my academic career, just by nature of academic positions, you’re typically forced a large contribution in. So like when I was at my first university, I think we had to put in. It was like 13 or 14% it was a forced contribution, because we didn’t pay into Social Security and we were part of the state retirement plan, but they matched something crazy, 11 and a half, 12% so my hand was forced at a time where, admittedly, when I had other priorities, goals just getting started, like I don’t think I would have probably contributed At that same value, and then come 15 years later, when I left that work to work on the business. And obviously then that kind of shifts cash flow and everything is we’re getting started with the business. I kind of did that Coast fi without realizing and so I can attest it. It works. I mean, the math works out, and it’s early savings, and it’s time value of money. And so I think there is different models out there in which we can achieve this balance. Right? Balance. So I love that you’re you’re reframing that activity, and I think for your students, I’m guessing maybe one of the things that comes up is, hey, Joe, this is great. We’re going to make a good income. I get that, but Dot. Dot. Dot. We’re going to have $170,000 in student loans. Have you looked at home prices recently and interest rates? Right? There’s all these competing pressures that are out there. But I think the point that you’re highlighting so well and helping them see the numbers come to life is this isn’t massive savings rates we’re talking about, especially if you’re doing it consistently throughout your career. We’re not talking about living off of rice and beans for the rest of your career. Yeah. I mean, it really even at a 10 to 15 to 20% contribution rate consistently over your career, like the math is going to work out time, value of money. So great stuff that you’re doing there. Let’s shift gears and talk about the book. So the legacy and impact that you’ve had in writing your book, Baker’s Dirty Dozen Principles for Financial Independence. We’ll link it to that in the show notes, people can pick up a copy at bakersdirtydozen.com, or on Amazon. You wrote this book with your daughter, Lindsay Jordan Baker, talk to us about the reason for writing the book. You’ve been teaching for a period of time now, almost 20 years, and you finally get this point say, You know what, I think I’m gonna write a book. What was the reason for wanting to put the book together?

Joe Baker  30:41

For those 20 years, I’d had students and former students says, you know, because I tell a lot of stories in class, it’s kind of like Jesus, you know, used to tell stories that way you could remember them. Jesus and I’m, I’m referencing him. We’re just like that. But, but my stories aren’t in parables. I like to think that they know exactly what I’m saying, but I like to tell stories, and whenever I have former students that come back, they’ll say a couple of things. They’ll say, Yeah, I remember that story you told about golfing and hitting somebody, and made the financial point with that, then they’ll say something, or a lot of them would say, you should write a book, put that in there. And I, you know, I thought about, you know, that is just as a lot of work. I didn’t really explore it. And I remember where I was, and it involved you. I was, I was at the physical therapist, and she was working on my knee. I had fallen on Masada in Israel, and read my patella tendon. And it was after surgery, and she was working on my knee, and I got this text, and I don’t even know why I had my phone. I looked at I said, Hey, look at this Tim for Your Financial Pharmacist and you don’t know is wanting me to write a book. And I said, Okay, I might just do that. And, and that was because of you. So thank you for that.

Tim Ulbrich  32:17

Sounds like it was planned for a while. 

Joe Baker  32:18

It was, it was, and so I did that, but it was a long process. And how Lindsay, my daughter, got involved. She is, I mean, she’s off the creative chart. She knows how to write. She was my chat GPT before Chat GPT, I mean, I’d run everything by her and and so one particular Christmas she was home, she’s been an educator for most of her young adult life. And she said, Dad, why don’t you let me read your manuscript? Because it was about ready to go to the publisher. And I said, Yeah, okay, you can help me out. And she’s and and I said, Well, honey, why do you want to do it? Just to help? She says, No, I know you’re putting a lot of stories in there, and I want to make sure they’re, they’re politically correct. And she would go through them, and she’d she would laugh a lot, but she said, that’s funny, dad, but you can’t use it, so it’s out of here. And then she would say, okay, you know, I don’t understand this particular section, like, if it Roth IRA or whatever. And I said, Well, you know, I’m writing this for your your age group – you don’t understand it? She Says, I’m sorry. I don’t understand it. So we would go back and forth. I would explain it to her, then she explained it back to me, until we got it right and literally. And I don’t use literally too often, but we went paragraph by paragraph, and she went through the whole book with me and and she just, she changed so much that I had to list her as a co author, and it was just, it was an amazing transformation. And I will say, because of that, she had a mostly educational background, and I probably didn’t do a good enough job teaching about money and plus, parents have trouble or student, not students, but children have trouble really digesting anything from parents. It’s hard for that to work, but by her reading and understanding all that, it changed her financial life. I’d love you know, I can’t even keep up with how much she accumulated on her Roth IRA with her 403 B through work, through the years. She told me just yesterday, it was just crazy how much money she has accumulated and and I think it has, well, I don’t think I know it has a lot to do with the book and how she edited it, and she learned a lot. I. Because of that. So back to your question, the book is, I use the book a couple of ways, obviously, in class, but I also use it as a gift. I probably give away more books than I than I sell, I don’t know, but whenever I’m speaking, I use this door prizes, and it’s very well received, and it is. It’s opened a lot of doors. It gives somewhat of credibility. Someone they told me, once that’s what books will do, and it has been a good conversation piece. And like, one of the things I like to do is my my alma mater is sponsor, like a table for some students. And whenever I do that, like I’m going to be doing in a couple of weeks, I always bring a copy of my book and give it to each of them, and with a little inscription in there. So, you know, I don’t know how many lives it’s touched, but if it’s touched one life, it’s been worth it.

Tim Ulbrich  36:07

Yeah, absolutely. And one thing I love about the book is that the stories really make the content come to life, right? Makes it memorable, helps it stick throughout the book, you’ve got sections where it’s this is the short and sweet, your takeaway, or the nitty gritty on the topic, or your certain choice or recommendation in a given area. So I think it’s written in a way that really is engaging. Helps the material come to life. It sticks. I hope people pick up a copy again, Amazon or bakersdirtydozen.com It was ranked number one book on financial education for everybody by a partner from Amazon and their financial literature category also recognized by gobankingrates.com, is one of the 10 financial books that will change your life. So, great work, Joe.

Joe Baker  36:49

And it was a joy, because a little bit plug for the contributors, I have, think 33 contributors, I just, you know, send out text or email. Say if you’ve got a financial story to tell, especially if it’s funny, send it to me, because, like I said about stories, they resonate with people. If you can tell a story with a financial principle, you remember that and and so I do have a lot of contributors there that have helped me with the stories in the book and and it was fun to compile it. I didn’t want it to be just a book of principles. I wanted a story to go with it as well.

Tim Ulbrich  37:38

So we talked about living and leaving a legacy through your teaching, through the book, both both you and I need neither one of those. The motivation is money. And the third area that I want to talk about is really giving of money and how that has become a part of your financial plan, why that’s become a part of your financial plan? So tell us about your philanthropic giving. I know you’ve endowed a couple scholarships, which is a big deal. I presume you’ve been involved locally as well, in your community, in your church. Tell us more about your giving strategy and how you’ve landed on the areas that you’ve made giving a priority.

Joe Baker  38:13

Okay, it was another aha moment, but back, I think it was in 2016 2016 it was about five years before I retired from Pharmacist Mutual. I was coming back from a different Israel trip, and I’m sitting at the airport. You know, when you get back into a country, you’re catching up all your work emails and all that. And I had an email from my employer, Pharmacist Mutual, That stated, or said, we are no longer going to give arbitrarily, just a scholarships, $1,000 scholarship, to every pharmacy school in the country. We’re going to do something different. I was devastated. I said, Oh my gosh. Because you know, when you take away from something or an institution, it is a negative fact. And the guy sitting next to me, he’s a travel buddy, and I’ve known him through church, and he’s 25 years my junior, and he’s sitting there, and he’s and I read it to him, he knew I was distraught, and he says, Why don’t you do your own scholarship? And I said, Hmm, I hadn’t even thought about that. Why? Why can’t it be a Joe Baker/pharmacy scholarship? So that’s what I did. I established my own scholarship for the one for the University of Arkansas, College of Pharmacy that awards a scholarship to students that have graduated from my alma mater, and the other one is a scholarship from my alma mater. So. So it was kind of like a light bulb went off, and by him just saying, you know, why don’t you do your own so it is amazing. I’ve learned his name is Shane Lester. Put a plug in for him, but he’s been kind of my mentor, even though he’s 25 years younger than I am, because he goes around, he’s a mortgage broker in a Little Rock and he goes around with stacks of Starbucks cards, Starbucks gift cards. And when I don’t know a stewardess does something nice, or you see a janitor or some whatever, he’ll hand out that gift card. And I’ve incorporated that, and I don’t even know how many gift cards I’ve handed out one time at the cleaners, this lady always did, you know, treated me with the kindness and stuff I gave her a gift card one time. I thought she was gonna come, well she did, she came around the counter and gave me a hug. And I will say I’ve gotten a lot of discounts since then, but I wasn’t doing it to get anything in return. But see the joy on her face. But I’ll see maybe a janitor or especially at the school, the college. I’m on the Board of Governors for the foundation. And you know these students, or young people that are helping out and they do special things, you know, I like to hand them a gift card just to say, hey, you know, some we recognize what you’re doing and we appreciate it, or I appreciate it, and you’d be amazed. I’ve got a little quote in there. I’ve kind of hijacked to saying, you It’s not how much you make, it’s how much you keep, but then I added to it, it’s not how much you keep, but it’s how much you give away. So, you know, so I’ve been blessed with that, but I learned it from someone else. It didn’t, didn’t come from me, but, but it makes an impact. Yeah,

Tim Ulbrich  42:01

And for those that aren’t familiar with for how endowments work, if those are folks aren’t familiar with how endowment works, it’s a big deal because you know, essentially what you’re doing there is you’re giving a large lump sum of money upfront to then allow for an annual gift that will live on forever. 

Joe Baker  42:19

And you’re and I tell people, I say, Hey, if you endow a scholarship your name, even though they don’t really know you, your name will go down in time. And I know we’re running out of time. Can I say how I funded that? Because somebody might use this. One of the assignments I have in class, and I’ve been doing this since 2010 is I have the students pick out a stock for me to buy in class. I’ll say, I want a blue chip stock. I want a high dividend payer. I want a good PE right, you know, just all the things, and it gives them a little time to research and all that. And then I’ll take those and I say, Okay, I like this, and I’ll buy one or two each semester in class. And at one time, that portfolio got up to over $265,000 and I said, I should have started doing this in 99 because it was just riding the wave. And I know individual stocks has its, you know, owned risk.

Tim Ulbrich  43:19

So you’re just doing this in like, a brokerage account, right? 

Joe Baker  43:21

Yes, a brokerage account. It wasn’t through an IRA and but some of those individual stocks accumulate so much so this sounds like I’m cheating, but it but it wasn’t. Like on the University of Arkansas, College of Pharmacy, I donated three stocks that had appreciated so much that actually my cost basis was $6,000 and when I donated, the stocks were worth $26,500. So I got the blessings of 26,500 and the recognition of an endowed scholarship. But my cost basis was $6,000 plus I wasn’t faced with the capital gains increase. I did the same thing with with the other with my the other endowment, and each year now there’s a fundraiser at our school, the my alma mater, that you buy a table for $25 so I just pick out a stock and get however many shares I need and and donate it and, and whatever’s left over goes to my my scholarship. Now that doesn’t make me sound as great as as I once did, but reason I’m saying this somebody knows may not have thought about this, but if you ever want to make a contribution to an area, think about charitable when you’re doing charitable giving, maybe donating a stock. Yeah, but, but it was, it was, is pretty good, using the leverage. And I did, sure didn’t want to sell the stock. Pay capital gains, then donate the money.

Tim Ulbrich  45:00

I was gonna say, What a great example of a win, win, win. I think it highlights so well what we’ve been talking about, right? It’s it obviously led to an endowed scholarship that has a benefit to the person receiving it. It allowed for, you know, a tax efficient way of giving. And it all happened through an exercise in which you were teaching the students something all along the way. That’s pretty cool.

Joe Baker  45:22

And they got an A too!

Tim Ulbrich  45:24

That’s right, that’s right! Awesome. This is great, Joe. I just love your heart for teaching, for giving. I think that is a thread of everything that you do. I know you’ve inspired me in my own journey and the work that we do at YFP as well. So thank you so much for taking time to come on the show. 

Joe Baker  45:41

Can I say one other thing? 

Tim Ulbrich  45:43

Yeah, absolutely.

Joe Baker  45:45

Giving back does not have to be a monetary situation. It could be being the best father, being the best husband, giving in those respects. It could be at your place of worship, giving of your time, your efforts, your leadership, your mentors. So it doesn’t have to be financial. It can be any of those ways. And once again, it will make you feel good, and it’ll be a win/win.

Tim Ulbrich  46:19

Yeah, I think the posture that you’re sharing there is one, one of a giving heart, right? That can be done in many different areas. So I love that. And thanks again, Joe for coming on the show. We appreciate it.

Joe Baker  46:28

Yes, thank you, Tim.

Tim Ulbrich  46:32

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyzes expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events, actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer, Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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