Tim Ulbrich and Tim Baker answer two questions from the YFP community on using 529 funds for student loans and the most cost-efficient ways to invest in digital assets like Bitcoin.
Episode Summary
In this episode, YFP Co-Founder & CEO Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, is joined by YFP Co-Founder & COO Tim Baker, CFP®, RLP®, RICP®, to answer two insightful financial questions from the YFP community.
First, they explore whether it makes sense to use 529 plan funds to pay off student loans. Tim and Tim break down the relevant provisions of the SECURE Act, highlight key limitations and tax implications, and discuss scenarios where this strategy could be beneficial—or not.
Next, they tackle a question about buying Bitcoin efficiently. They compare the most cost-efficient ways to invest, including using various platforms, ETFs, and tax-advantaged accounts like IRAs. They also weigh the pros and cons of each approach, including fee structures, accessibility, and long-term considerations.
Whether you’re considering how to best use your 529 funds or exploring your first steps into cryptocurrency, this episode provides practical, pharmacist-specific guidance to help you make informed financial decisions.
Key Points from the Episode
- 00:00 Welcome to the YFP Podcast
- 00:42 Question 1: Using 529 Funds to Pay Off Student Loans
- 03:35 Options for Overfunded 529 Plans
- 16:56 Question 2: Buying Bitcoin and Digital Assets
- 33:24 Conclusion and Listener Reminder
Episode Highlights
”This is not your dad’s 529 plan anymore. What I mean by that is that they continue to make these, I think, more favorable. You have more exit opportunities, if you will, right, in terms of how these funds might be used if you run into a situation like an oversave situation, which I would argue is a good problem, right?” – Tim Ulbrich [11:40]
”When you buy a spot Bitcoin ETF, you don’t hold the Bitcoin directly.
You just have shares of that fund. But the fund essentially owns it and you have a partial ownership of the fund. So when you buy it on Coinbase or Robinhood, you’re an owner, right? Your keys are on that ledger. And it’s there for public consumption.” – Tim Baker [19:44]
“ I own Bitcoin both ways. I own it through an ETF, and I own it directly. And part of me is worried that one day I’ll wake up and I’ll hear a story that X, Y, Z was hacked, and all of my Bitcoin is gone. It’s just the reality, right? And that’s one of the downsides of digital assets.” – Tim Baker [20:48]
Mentioned in Today’s Episode
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- YFP 368: How Much is Enough for Kids’ College?
- YFP 211: The Ins and Outs of the 529 College Savings Plan
- YFP 404: 5 Key Questions to Ask Before Hiring a Financial Planner
- YFP 386: Cryptocurrency & Digital Assets: Definitions, Origins, and Risks
- YFP 387: Cryptocurrency & Digital Assets: Investment Considerations and Tax Implications
Episode Transcript
[00:00:00]
Tim Ulbrich: Hey everybody. Tim Ulbrich here and welcome to this week’s episode of the YFP podcast where we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. YFP co-founder, COO and Certified Financial Planner, Tim Baker joins me to answer two questions. I. Came in from the YFP community one on whether or not it makes sense to use 5 29 funds to pay off student loans. And another question on the most cost efficient way to buy digital assets like Bitcoin. you have a question that you’d like us to feature on an upcoming episode, head on over to your financial pharmacist.com/ask yfp to record your question or send us an email [email protected]. Alright, let’s take our first question from the YFP community, which came to us via email. Tim, what are your [00:01:00] thoughts on using 5 29 savings as a vehicle to pay off student loan debt? Tim, we were talking before the show, maybe a couple different ways to interpret this question. So what? What are your thoughts?
Tim Ulbrich: I.
Tim Baker: Yeah, and we actually interpret it differently. So, um, you know, I. You know, I, I think I, I was looking at this question as almost like, um, using the 5 29 as like a pass through. So like I, I’m a student loan borrower and I have, you know, let’s just say I have $50,000 left to pay off. You know, one of the things that you could do is I could open a 5 29 and I’ll use State of Ohio, which was where we lived, Tim.
Tim Baker: I could put in for this year, $4,000 in my own name, get a state tax deduction for that, and then, you know, if it grows, great, if not, but I can basically just take that $4,000 out and then pay off, you know, 4,000 out of the 50,000 that I still have, [00:02:00] you know, left to pay. So. That is an option, right? That you, you can, you can absolutely do.
Tim Baker: Um, I think the way that you interpreted, and correct me if I’m wrong, it’s like, you know, you were thinking about it from the, the standpoint of like, Hey, I have student loans, but I’m also saving for my kids’ education. Could I potentially use some of what I, you know, am put in towards the boys’ education for my own student loans?
Tim Baker: And I think that is actually an option as well. Now, the big thing, this was one of the, the big things that. Um, either the Secure Act, uh, in 2020 basically allows for, you can now use up to $10,000 lifetime per beneficiary from a 5 29 to pay qualified student loans. So I, I’ve kind of been on record like to say like, I don’t love the the 10,000 lifetime beneficiary ’cause it’s such a drop in the bucket, especially with the kind of loans that we see, but.
Tim Baker: You know, I think that, I think that cap should be higher, but I would imagine that like [00:03:00] lawmakers are trying to preserve the intended use of the 5 29 and not turn it into like a tax loophole or safe haven for like wealthy families. So I would imagine that’s why, um, it just feels like it’s very inconsequential.
Tim Baker: Um, but yeah, so I think you, I think both of those scenarios, Tim can actually. Like happen, right? So you could say, you know, you, you could say, Hey, this, this, you know, maybe you, maybe, you know, your, your youngest has like the least amount. You could say, Hey, this is now my 5 29. You know, I peel off the 10,000 lifetime amount.
Tim Baker: Apply that to my, um. My own loans and then maybe, you know, recategorize that 5 29 back to your youngest. So I think that’s an option. I, I think what I, what the way I want to answer this question, you know, it’s kind of similar to like, you know, when you leave an employer, like what do you do with your 401k and there’s like a, a myriad of options.
Tim Baker: Like you can leave it, you [00:04:00] can cash it out, you can transfer it to an IRA, you can, you know, roll it over to your current employer. So I kind of wanna look at that. This question this way. So like what are the options if you’ve overfunded a 5 29, um, and let’s us just assume, Tim, that there’s no more school for your child, right?
Tim Baker: So I’m gonna use Olivia as an example. Olivia Baker, great student, great swimmer, she’s a junior Olympian. And the breaststroke great kid. But like, I think the way that I would look at this is, um, if she goes to school. And let’s say, you know, she has money left over to me. The, the, the, the, the number that I’m looking at right now is the magic number for Overfunded five 20 nines is 45,000.
Tim Baker: And I’ll kind of break that down here in a second. So the options that we have with Olivia, so let’s assume she goes through school and maybe she gets scholarships or whatever. What do we do with that Overfund at 5 29? The, the one thing that you [00:05:00] could do is you could change the beneficiary, which is kinda what we just talked about.
Tim Baker: Like, yeah, I could change, you could change it in your name, pay off your student loans, and then change it back so you could change the beneficiary to siblings. So I could, I could change it to Liam. I could change it to Zoe. I could change it. To, uh, grandchildren that might not be here. I could change it to aunts and uncles, my parents, nieces and nephews.
Tim Baker: I could change it to Shea if you decide to go back to school or even myself, like we talked about that. So there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of flexibility. What, what to do with that. Um, this, the second option, which we just talked about is what you, you can use $10,000 to pay down student loans. So this applies to the original beneficiary and each of the symbol.
Tim Baker: And so I, this is one of the things I have to clarify. It’s like I, I think I would be able to use it for myself, but I’m not clear on that. You know, one of the, one of the things I was recent researching it says is fors. So if we look at it from that perspective, then for the Baker family, I see this as like a $30,000 benefit, right?
Tim Baker: 10,000 for Olivia, 10,000 for Liam’s student loans, 10,000 [00:06:00] for Zoe student loans. The other option that also opened up in the Secure Act was. The rollover to a Roth IRA that started in 2024. So you can now roll up to 35,000 lifetime from a 5 29 to a Roth. Um, and there’s some contingence, but that’s where I get the, the 45,000.
Tim Baker: So in my mind, those dollars in all intents and purposes are for Olivia’s education. However, to me, if she has. $50,000 in that account when she’s kind of through school, then I think I would probably leave 40, 45, 10 for potential student loans if that were to pop up. And then 35 to roll over to kind of get started on her retirement saving.
Tim Baker: And then I might take that five. And apply it for Liam or Zoe or something like that. The big conditions here, Tim, is that the, the five 20 for us to be able to roll over to a Roth, the 5 29 has to be open for at least 15 years. So we’re thinking like a long-term play. The rollover is limited to the [00:07:00] annual Roth IRA contribution each year.
Tim Baker: So right now that’s seven. Thousand dollars. So you’d have to do it, you know, um, over basically a five year period, seven time, 7,000 times, five years. Now, those, those limits will be different in the future. And the beneficiary of the Roth IRA must be the same as the 5 29. So there’s some hoops that you have to jump through.
Tim Baker: Um, but outside of that, the two other options that I see, and we kind of talked about this. Um, is you can save for future generations. So there’s no time limit on when the funds must be used. So I’ve always looked at this as like the last resort. So like if we, you know, and that’s one of the big fears, people like, I know about five 20 nines ’cause it’s limited in use, blah, blah, blah.
Tim Baker: In my mind, like if I’m given money to grandkids in the future, I’m good with that, right? Like. It’s a good problem to have. Right? And it’s a great tool for multi-generation wealth transfer for the purposes of education. And then the last one that, which I know you’ve brought up that’s like it’s not the end of the world, is like you can always make a non-qualified [00:08:00] withdrawal and pay taxes and penalty, the 10% penalty.
Tim Baker: You typically pay ordinary income tax on the earnings, plus a 10% penalty on the earnings, um, which is not, again, the end of the world. So to me, like the 5 29 as a. Tool to pay off student loans. Yes. Like you can do that. The, the problem is, is that it’s a $10,000 lifetime limit, but I’m also looking at these other avenues potentially, you know, and, and again, like the 45,000, you know, dollar limit.
Tim Baker: Like I’m, I’m thinking of this as like, if there is money left over. It’s probably because Olivia did something that allowed her to kind of not pay as much for, you know, like, I’m thinking like scholarships, right? So I don’t wanna, I still would wanna reward her. So like, you know, I was just kind of checking our numbers of like what we will project to have for her.
Tim Baker: Um, I think we did this exercise in a previous episode. Um, so I just updated those [00:09:00] numbers and, you know, we’re, we’re about 60, you know, we talked about the one third rule. Right now we’re on track to save about 60%. Um, so for her, the future value of her four year education, um, so she’s 10 and a half now. So really in seven and and a half years, we’ll pay about 175,000.
Tim Baker: We’re on track to save about a hundred, we’ll call it 105. Um. So, but we could, we could get there and she could get a swim scholarship and now we have 105,000. And we’re like, what do we do with that? You know? And I think that’s when we start kind of going down that decision tree of like, let’s, you know, let’s keep that 45 for her for potential 10,000 student loans for, you know, 35,000 in Roth.
Tim Baker: And then potentially peel some of that money off for Liam, for Zoe, for whatever. Um, so I think it’s a great question and kind of, you know, again, we interpret it very differently, but I think there’s, I think one of the, the, the feelings for a lot of parents is like, am I locked into this? And I think there’s just a lot [00:10:00] of wiggle room of what you could do with those dollars.
Tim Baker: Um, and I think we’ll continue to be, you know, opened up and, and flexible. But at the end of the day, I think the very last thing that you could do is just pay the 10% penalty. It’s not the end of the world.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think, um, a couple things of reference. Great stuff, Tim. Um, you know, as you were walking through your example calculations for Olivia.
Tim Baker: Yeah.
Tim Ulbrich: reminded me of that episode we did previously, which I wanna make sure we have reference. So that was 360 8. How much is enough for kids college and and the premise of that was we talk all the time about saving for retirement, determining your nest egg. I remember one day, a couple years ago, you had this aha of like, why don’t we apply this same mindset to kids college, right? We have
Tim Baker: Right.
Tim Ulbrich: of thumb framework, the third, a third, a third. We’ve talked about that on this show before, Same for kids. College is a mathematical set of assumptions.
Tim Ulbrich: Just like we think about retirement, sure things may change, will change. Markets will kind of do their thing depending on how we have those invested, but we should be able [00:11:00] to plan. In a similar fashion, especially if we’re looking at this over a long period of time, you know, 15, 18 years that we’re, we’re saving.
Tim Ulbrich: So, um, I wanna make sure we reference that episode as well as two 11 when we talked about the ins and outs of the 5 2 9 college savings plan. So I know some of our listeners, especially may, maybe mid, mid-career pharmacists that have some kids that are in high school, a little bit older, getting ready to go to college, perhaps well versed in this topic, but for others that. Maybe younger kids are wanting to learn more about what, what is the 5, 2 9 and, and how might it fit as a priority of investing in the financial plan given all these other things I have going on, right? Whether it be just starting a family, buying a home, saving for retirement, student loans that are hanging around, how might this fit in as a priority with other. Investments and other things, other goals. So make sure to check out that episode as well. you know, one of the thoughts that came to mind as you were talking is like, thi this is not your dad’s 5, 2, 9 plan anymore. What, what I mean by that is we’ve talked at length the show [00:12:00] that they continue as you highlighted just a few moments ago, to make these, I think, more favorable.
Tim Ulbrich: You, you have more exit. Opportunities, if you will, right? In terms of how these funds might be used if you run into a situation like an over save situation, which I would argue is, is a good problem, right? Whether it be because, hey, my kid got a scholarship, they didn’t think they were gonna get a scholarship or, you know, perhaps they decided that it was a different career path than than college and, and now we’ve got funds, we gotta figure out what to do it.
Tim Ulbrich: There are more exit opportunities now than ever, including some of the most recent ones you mentioned, like the Roth. Conversions, and we’ve got a plan and, and there’s certain details that we’ve gotta think about in doing that. Um, but there are more options than we’ve had before in terms of how these funds can be used.
Tim Ulbrich: And of course, everyone’s situation is different. You know, I’m thinking about parents that might have larger families where there’s multiple kids, or the likelihood of more grandkids versus a single child and what that might look like. So everyone’s [00:13:00] situation, of course, is different, but. I wanna reemphasize that because I, I had a conversation just last week, Tim, with a faculty member at a college who was given advice by a non fee only financial planner.
Tim Ulbrich: And so a shout out to the most recent episode we did on five questions Ask when Hiring a financial planner. the advice was, Hey, you work at a university. Your kids could go to the university of which you work and, and go there for free, which could happen and that’s an awesome benefit, but also may not happen. Um, and therefore like, don’t put money in a 5 2 9 and instead buy a whole life insurance policy. And you know, I,
Tim Baker: I’m shaking my for. Yeah, for, for those that are not watching the video, I’m shaking my head. I, I had a, I had a similar conversation where, you know, somebody was talking about a 5 29 and the advisor was saying, um. They were saying two things. They were saying, don’t put money in a 5, 2, 9, and actually don’t put money into your 401k, [00:14:00] put it in a brokerage account.
Tim Baker: Um, or like an IRA and, and I was like, I was asking the, I know this is the tangent, but I was asking the question. I’m like, you know why they said that, right? Like, not to put money in the four five, the 401k, and not to put money in a 5 29. They’re like, no, why? And I’m like, because they don’t get paid on those accounts.
Tim Baker: So you get. Yeah, like they’re held away accounts, you don’t get paid. I mean, advisors can get paid on a 5 29. Um, like when I was prac, when I was practicing my first, you know, job in financial services, there was a Maryland 5 29, but we used the Virginia 5 29 for most of our, our clients. And you know why that was, Tim, is because Virginia 5 29, at least at the time, like it was open to advisors to get to, to set up and get paid.
Tim Baker: So even though the Maryland. Uh, clients weren’t getting the state benefit like we were. We were be, we were benefiting because we could like earn commissions on that. So like, yeah. I mean, [00:15:00] yeah. Not to cut you off, but like, it’s that, that kind of stuff just like makes me angry.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and what was frustrating about that is, you know, we talked about this when we did the episode on five key key questions to ask for hiring a financial planner is, you know, there’s some half truth slash good
Tim Baker: I.
Tim Ulbrich: in there. Like of course, you know, if I were to still be working at Ohio State, my kids can go to Ohio State.
Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. Like, that’s a great benefit, but one that may not happen. You know, they might say, Hey dad, by the way, like. not cool. I don’t want to go to Ohio State
Tim Baker: Right.
Tim Ulbrich: or, you know, whatever would be the scenario. Um, then also, like that doesn’t just mean like, okay, go, go buy a whole life insurance policy instead because I’m gonna earn a commission off of that.
Tim Ulbrich: So, you know, I, I think it was one of those things that there’s still a lot of advice out there that I hear in talking with pharmacists. I know you hear as well, not, not just that related to the example I gave, but that are operating under. of the older rules in construct and framework around 5, 2, 9 plans.
Tim Ulbrich: [00:16:00] It didn’t have the flexibility and options that it might have today.
Tim Baker: Yeah.
Tim Ulbrich: and so, you know, I think that’s something to be aware with.
Tim Baker: Yeah. And I think the last thing that I would, I would just interject here that I didn’t say is that like. You know, if your student gets a scholarship, you can withdraw up to the amount of the scholarship without penalty. You’ll still owe income tax on the earnings. But like, you know, like if, if your, if your kid gets a, you know, a $30,000 a year scholarship to go to x, y, Z school, like, you can take out $30,000 a year without, you know, without, you know, paying that 10% penalty.
Tim Baker: So, again, like it just, you know, there’s just lots of different avenues. To go down to potentially, um, you know, exhaust those funds before you, you know, you get to the point of like, with, you know, making a non-qualified, you know, withdrawal. So, but it’s, it’s a preference, right? Like, you know, I’m just thinking about this whole like, you know, buy a whole life policy.
Tim Baker: It’s, you know, like, Hey, you don’t have to worry about education ’cause you, you know, you work at the university, it’s almost like don’t save [00:17:00] for retirement ’cause you know you’re gonna get an inheritance or something. I don’t know, just it, it’s kind of silly to me.
Tim Ulbrich: All right. Great stuff. I’m sure we’ll talk about kids college more. Um, second question, but, and before I go into this second question, which is around digital assets and, and buying Bitcoin, I wanna reference people, we did a two part podcast series on this topic, so especially for, for folks that. Cryptocurrency digital assets might be more introductory to where this does or does not fit into their financial plan. Make sure to check out those episodes. 3 86 3 87. We’ll link to those in the show notes. We talked about definitions of cryptocurrency, digital assets, some of the origins risks, investment considerations, tax implications, really good comprehensive overview of cryptocurrency, digital assets.
Tim Ulbrich: So great background information. Check out those episodes. Tim, with that backdrop, the question is. What is the best way to buy Bitcoin? What are the pros and cons of using a tax sheltered account versus a brokerage account? And what is a cost efficient way to buy Bitcoin [00:18:00] in a brokerage account using Robinhood versus an ETF?
Tim Ulbrich: What? What are your thoughts here? I.
Tim Baker: Yeah, so very three very different questions, so I’ll kind of unpack them in turn. So the best way to buy Bitcoin, I think this is kind of somewhat analogous to. Like real estate. So like if I’m a real estate investor, you know, I can be a direct owner where I buy a property, let’s say a single family home, and I’m dealing with all of the things, right?
Tim Baker: I have to deal with tenants repairs, contractors taxes, HOAs agreements, things like that, versus the other end of the spectrum, I can just buy. A reit, you know, a real estate investment trust, and that’s probably the most passive way to own a real estate. So a lot of listeners, if you’re not familiar with a reit, you actually might be an investor in a reit, you know, in your 401k or an IRA.
Tim Baker: It’s, it’s a, it’s a very, um. Popular way to invest in, in real estate passively. So if I, if I apply that analogy to [00:19:00] say Bitcoin, you know, purchasing a property directly is kind of like pur purchasing, you know, Bitcoin directly on a platform like Robinhood or Coinbase, Kraken, Gemini. But you’re dealing with a lot of the things and it’s private keys, hot and cold wallets, tax reporting, maybe some worry over, you know, a partial or.
Tim Baker: Permanent loss. So just, just a lot more, even though you’re a direct, you know, owner and there’s benefits of it for that to that like you just have more worry versus like you could just buy the spot. Bitcoin ETF, which launched, I think that was the beginning of last year and it’s probably the most passive way to own Bitcoin.
Tim Baker: So I don’t know if there is a best way. I think if you are more of the keep it simple stupid type of approach, like the spot Bitcoin, ETF is probably the better way. Um. If you like a little bit more of the hands-on then buying it directly I think is. Probably better, right? So when you buy a spot, Bitcoin, ETF, you don’t hold the [00:20:00] Bitcoin directly.
Tim Baker: You just buy sh you have shares or of like, of that fund. But the fund essentially owns it and you have, you know, a partial, uh, ownership of the fund. So when you buy it on Coinbase or, or Robinhood, you’re, you’re an owner, right? Your, your, your keys are on that, on that ledger. And, and it’s, you know, there for public consumption.
Tim Baker: So. Again, like when I talk about real estate, there’s often people that are like, oh yeah, I’m all about it. And then when, when we kind of get into the, the nitty gritty of it and I, I get to the end of like, my presentation, I’m like, if all of this is kind of overwhelming, and we kind of talk about like, you know, um.
Tim Baker: Different, different types of real estate investment. It’s not just like a single family home. There’s hacking and um, just different ways that you can invest in real estate. If you get to the end of that presentation, you’re overwhelmed. I’m like, just buy a reit. And actually, like most of our portfolios, we we’re in real estate.
Tim Baker: Um. I think it’s the, kind of the same, the same way. Because you know, I own Bitcoin both ways. I own it through an ETF and I own it [00:21:00] directly. And part of me is worried that one day I’ll wake up and I’ll hear a story that X, Y, Z, um, was hacked. And like all of my Bitcoin is gone. It’s just something that’s, it’s the reality, right?
Tim Baker: And that’s one of the, that’s one of the downsides of digital assets. So, um.
Tim Ulbrich: a thought here real quick to, to tack on what you’re saying. Um, and not, not an investment advice by any means, but, you know, I look at my portfolio, I’m, I’m interested in some exposure for the reasons that we talked about on previous episodes, but
Tim Baker: Yeah.
Tim Ulbrich: I. I have zero interest in, you know, kind of maintaining that myself, but I respect the people where this is partly a hobby, you know, like they, some people just geek out on like going through the transactions and, you know, dealing with the wallet, you know, stuff and figuring out how all of that, uh, fits in.
Tim Ulbrich: Just like, you know, sometimes people like to take a small percentage of their portfolio and do some individual stock type of trading and track that. So I, I think it’s a little bit of like, know thyself in terms of, [00:22:00] first where does this, might it fit overall in your, your financial plan. And I think, you know, for, for our clients, speaking about them in particular, it’s a great conversation to have your financial planner, with the financial planning team of like, is this something I want exposure to in my portfolio?
Tim Ulbrich: And then if yes, does that look like? Right. And I know you’re gonna continue on in terms of some of the types of accounts as well.
Tim Baker: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, it, it definitely is that there’s a lot of people that are like, you know, I’m, I’m at a point now where this is not a gimmick. I think, you know, digital assets are here to stay and, and I think the, the advent of the spot Bitcoin spot, Ethereum, ETFs, that launch is. A logical next step for them.
Tim Baker: Like they don’t necessarily have to be wanting to, you know, they don’t wanna deal with hot and cold wallets and private keys. And I completely understand that part of me, what you described is that nerd of like, you know, building, you know, I was invested in digital assets before the, the spot Bitcoin ets, but you know, even, even now, I’m like, eh, should I be doing that [00:23:00] a hundred percent there?
Tim Baker: Now I won’t sell my, I won’t sell my directly held coins, but like I know that there’s risk. If I continue to buy or if I continue to hold them, you know, because of what I just described. So, yeah, just it’s kind of understanding where, where you’re at in that spectrum. So the second question, you know, that was asked is like, what are the pros and cons of using a tax sheltered account versus like a brokerage account?
Tim Baker: And I would just answer, this is like any other investment, right? So like, well, let me just say this, like to, in most cases, the IRA. Um, are, unless, unless it’s a self-directed IRA, you’re typically not holding Bitcoin directly in those IRAs. It wasn’t until, again, the spot Bitcoin. That’s why Ethereum, I. Came out that, you know, the, the general, you know, the broad, um, based investor had access to that.
Tim Baker: So [00:24:00] once those happened, then it really opened up kind of the three main options for tech sheltered versus brokerage account. So the tax sheltered being the tax deferred, which is traditional gross tax free. It’s text coming out. After tax or Roth is tax going in, but you know, gross, tax free, um, and then not tax coming out.
Tim Baker: And then the taxable or brokerage account, which you’re gonna pay capital gains on, right? So, you know, short-term capital gains, if it’s, you know, bought, you know, bought and sold inside of a year and then long-term capital gains if it’s, um, held for longer than a year. So, you know, with an asset that is, that is potentially, um.
Tim Baker: Very much appreciable. I think that’s a word, meaning you buy it and then your hoping that, you know, what’s Bitcoin priced at it right now? Like 93. 93,000 per per Bitcoin. You know, there are some that believe. That, you know, [00:25:00] that it could go up to 250, 400 50,000 per coin, right? So in that case, like something like a Roth would be very, very attractive, if not a traditional.
Tim Baker: And then probably last but not least, the taxable. Now the, the problem with the, the tax sheltered accounts is that for you to access that, do those dollars. And actually spend and consume them. You typically have to be 59 and a half, or there’s a slew of other exceptions, whereas a taxable account, you can access that today.
Tim Baker: Right? So I would just answer this as like any other, um, any other investment. However, if you think that Bitcoin. Will continue to go up and it’s, you view it as a very appreciable asset and something like a Roth is probably the best thing to potentially, you know, pay the tax now, but that asset grows tax free.
Tim Baker: And then when you pour it out potentially in retirement, you know, you’re not having to worry about, you know, taxes then. Um. And then the last part of the question, Tim, was what is the co [00:26:00] the most cost efficient way to buy Bitcoin? So if we go back to the, the, the two best ways to buy Bitcoin, which is the spot, Bitcoin, ET, F, or directly on a PAT platform like Robinhood, Coinbase, Kraken, Gemini, I would say that probably the most cost efficient way would be the spot, Bitcoin, ETF, the expense ratios.
Tim Baker: For those ETFs that are out there, and I think there are, I don’t know, maybe a dozen or so, they range from 0.15% to one point a half percent. So, um, in terms of expense ratio, so this is what the fund takes the et f takes to basically pay their expenses to, to be profitable. So. If you have a hundred thousand dollars in a spot, Bitcoin, e, t, F, and I would say not to have that unless you are very, very, very wealthy.
Tim Baker: Um, you know, a hundred thousand dollars if you’re [00:27:00] paid paying 15 basis points or 0.15%, that’s $150 per year versus a. On the, on the higher end, one, one and a half percent is $1,500 per year that that fund takes, um, to essentially, you know, uh, allow you to have exposure to Bitcoin. Um, if you compare that to platforms like, um, the ones I mentioned, typically the way and every platform has a different price strategy, but typically the way that they price for kind of the smaller trades of said coin is that they charge a spread.
Tim Baker: Um, so, so if you’re buy-in, typically the spread is, um, what the coin is priced at, plus maybe half a percent. And it varies from platform to platform of what you actually buy it at. Um, so if, if, if Bitcoin is, is selling at. You know, 93,000, I might be buying it for 94,000. So you, you, you, you [00:28:00] purchase it on a spread, and then you also sell it on a spread.
Tim Baker: So again, the, the, the, the counter of that is, is true, but then you’ll also also pay typically a transaction fee, or it’s kind of like a commission. So on top of the spread, you’ll pay a, a flat fee. So that can be as little as like a dollar to $2, $3, or it can also be a percentage of what you buy. Um, like I said, every platform is gonna be different.
Tim Baker: Some are gonna be a little bit better than others. Um, you can actually like pay a membership fee, you know, at, at some of ’em to like get better pricing, but you’re paying a membership fee, right? So, um, there’s lots. So I would say just in, in general, even though you’re not holding the coin directly, it’s probably more cost efficient to hold it in a spot.
Tim Baker: Bitcoin, ETF. Than paying the transaction fees of holding the coins directly and the, and the, and the spread. Um, now the greater the volume, so if you’re, if you’re trading [00:29:00] many, many thousands, if not hundreds of thousands. That decision gets, you know, it’s a little bit ’cause because the big difference between like an expense ratio, you pay like an ongoing, like every year you’re paying that with a commission or a spread fee, you pay that one time.
Tim Baker: Right? So that’s, that’s a big difference. Um, so that’s something to consider as you’re thinking about cost efficiency.
Tim Ulbrich: Tim, I’m looking at, uh, the fees for some of the spot Bitcoin ETFs, to your point, ranging from 0.15. So I’m looking at. Options like, uh, the Bitcoin MIDI trust, um, I see some in the 0.2, 0.25 range. Point two, something like the Bitwise, Bitcoin, ETF, all the way up to 1.5, the grayscale Bitcoin trust. That’s a huge range. what is it No different than any other? Range that we look at when we talked about before on the show is, is does the same apply here? That you know, you’re gonna see a big range of fees and, and there’s a question that we have to assess [00:30:00] of like, what am I
Tim Baker: Okay
Tim Ulbrich: fees?
Tim Ulbrich: Why, why such a big spread on these, on these Bitcoin
Tim Baker: It’s a good question. The gray, the grayscale, um, from what I understand has been around even before like the, the grayscale Bitcoin trust that’s priced, its, uh, ticker symbol GBTC and non-investment advice. Um, my belief is that that was around even before the spot Bitcoin ETFs. Um, so I think they changed something when the.
Tim Baker: Like those came online, um, to kind of be like in the same bucket. But those were a thing. I don’t know if they were a mutual fund before, but they were, they were a thing before, like all of these other options came on, and I’m not sure why they’re priced so high. I, I, you could make a case that these types of funds, you know, and then Grayscale came out with the Bitcoin mini trusts, which I didn’t even know.
Tim Baker: Like that was a thing, like when these first launched, you know, the, the spot [00:31:00] Bitcoin, that wasn’t, that’s a newer fund. So I think they’re trying to be more competitive in the space, and I completely honest, I don’t know what the difference is between those two. Um, you know, we, we used two of these in our portfolios.
Tim Baker: Um, and part of it is because, like the, the one company we use is because that’s is all they do. Like they’re experts in digital assets. And I’m not saying like iShares or Fidelity are not. Um, but this is, you know what, this is their main, you know, um, business. This is the remain offer. And so, um, I’m not sure, but I, I, I think you could make a case because of how specialized and really how new these are that.
Tim Baker: You know, these are a, a bargain, and I’m not saying the one and a half, but I’m saying, you know, the 0.15 to, I’d say, you know, 25 basis points. Yeah. And I think, again, it’s competitive market. There’s lots of dollars that float into ’em, especially in the, you know, when they first launched, um, [00:32:00] you know, our expense ratios.
Tim Baker: Um, you know, even with some of these in our portfolios, typically 0.0 5.06. So super competitive and I think super low cost. Um, so I think something special. Typically, the more specialized the fund, typically the higher it is. And this is pretty, pretty dang specialized. So I, I view this as, even though it’s an ongoing cost, it, it gives you all of the things that we talked about that, you know, like you don’t, if I’m, if I hold one of these, like I’m, I’m not having to worry about.
Tim Baker: Cold wallets and security and things like that. This company, and they typically have themselves, and then there’s, they, they typically partner, like I know one of these funds actually partners with Coinbase to kind of do the, the verifying and all the things that they, they have to do per, I believe the SEC, um, and everything, from what I understand from most of these funds, all of these, all of the Bitcoin that they hold is in a cold wallet, meaning it’s off the internet, you know, it’s kind of in cold [00:33:00] storage, you know, which, which really, really.
Tim Baker: Lessens the, or eliminates the ability to like hack it, you know, to like, for someone to get in and steal it. Um, so all of that kind of worry and things that I have with the coins I hold directly, I don’t have that with, with these funds. So I would say for what you get for the price, I think it’s, it’s pretty good.
Tim Baker: Um, so yep.
Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff, Tim. And again, to the listeners episodes 3 86 3 87, we did a broad overview of cryptocurrency, digital assets. Make sure to check those two episodes out. We’ll link to those in the show notes. Thanks so much for listening. Have a great rest of your week.
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