Tim U

YFP 314: RMDs: What They Are & Why They Matter

Posted on June 29, 2023June 28, 2023 by Tim U

Tim Baker, CFP®, RICP®, RLP® discusses RMDs: What they are, why they matter, and factors to consider when building a retirement paycheck.

Episode Summary

No matter where you are in your career journey, it’s never too early to start optimizing your retirement plan. One important factor to consider when building your retirement paycheck is Required Minimum Distributions (RMDs). RMDs refer to the minimum amount that you must withdraw from certain retirement accounts each year after reaching a certain age.

On this week’s episode, YFP’s Co-founder and Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, CFP®, RICP®, RLP® unpacks the many intricacies of RMDs, like which accounts demand RMDs, which ones don’t, and what to consider when planning how to build your retirement paycheck. You’ll learn about how RMDs are calculated, the penalties you can expect when you don’t fulfill RMD requirements, how to optimize and reduce the impact of RMDs, and why optimizing your retirement strategy starts in the accumulation phase.

Key Points From the Episode

Introducing Tim Baker and today’s topic: Required Minimum Distributions (RMDs).
Planning for retirement and the taxes you typically need to pay.
The importance of understanding RMDs, even if you aren’t near retirement age.
How the IRS defines RMDs and a run-through of the accounts that typically include RMDs.
An overview of a Roth IRA and how it is contributed with after-tax dollars.
How contributing after-tax dollars allows your retirement to grow tax-free.
A rundown of what happens if you inherit a Roth account.
The primary benefit of Roth accounts: control.
Why traditional accounts are still beneficial despite RMDs.
A breakdown of how RMDs are calculated in various scenarios.
The rules and penalties if you don’t fulfill your RMDs.
What to consider when planning how to build your retirement paycheck.
Why optimizing your retirement strategy starts in the accumulation phase.
How to optimize and reduce the impact of RMDs.

Episode Highlights

“The government doesn’t really care because they’ve already taken their bite of the apple. With Roth IRAs, and then Roth 401Ks, 403Bs (especially heading into 2024), you’re not required to take RMDs.” — @TimBakerCFP [0:10:53]

“With Roths, it’s about control. It’s the control of when you’re paying your taxes or a known quantity of what your tax bill is going to be but then it’s also [that] I don’t have the burden of being forced to distribute the account when I don’t want to.” — @TimBakerCFP [0:13:03]

“So much of building a retirement paycheck (and all this strategy we’re talking about) really starts with ‘in what buckets are you saving?’” — Tim Ulbrich [0:27:16]

“I would still advocate for the use of these accounts because the long-term benefits of having tax-deferred growth is a huge benefit. – I don’t want people to think ‘I don’t want to use these accounts because I don’t want to have to pay RMDs’.” — @TimBakerCFP [0:30:01]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I welcome YFP co-founder and Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, to talk about required minimum distributions. Also known as RMDs. We discuss what they are, how they’re calculated, strategies to optimize, and why this topic matters to building a retirement paycheck.

As a supplement to today’s episode, make sure to download our free checklist; What Issues Should I Consider When Reviewing My Investments? You get a copy of that resource by visiting yourfinancialpharmacist.com/investmentreview. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/investmentreview.

Okay. Let’s hear from Justin from the YFP team and then we’ll jump into my interview with Tim Baker.

[00:00:55] JW: This is Justin Woods from the YFP team with a quick message before the show. If you listen to the YFP podcast, you may learn something every now and then, either from Tim Ulbrich, Tim Baker or one of our guests. A lot of people listen to the show but they may not execute or implement the things they learn.

As pharmacists, we know the impact of non-adherence on patient outcomes and their overall well-being. As a pharmacist myself and part of the YFP team, I talk with pharmacists every day who are confused about how to implement financial knowledge. Pharmacists share with me that they’re treading water financially. Maybe took a DIY approach, reached the plateau and are confused about what to do next. Or those who work for decades can see the light at the end of the tunnel and feel uncertain about how the next chapter will unfold. If that sounds like you, one, it is not uncommon to feel that way. And two, does it make sense for us to have a conversation to see if YFP planning can help you? Visit yfpplanning.com or follow the link in the show notes to find a time that works for your schedule.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:02:01] TU: Tim Baker, welcome back to the show.

[00:02:03] TB: Good to be here, Tim. How’s it going?

[00:02:05] TU: It is going well. Last week we talked about four reasons that we believe you should have your financial planner manage your investments. Great episode. If you haven’t yet, check that out. I hope you will do so. We’ll link to that in the show notes.

This week we’re going to be talking about a topic that we have not really covered before at length or in depth. And that is around required minimum distributions or RMD.

Tim, maybe not the most exciting topic to talk about. But considering some of the questions that we’re getting considering some of the rule changes have come around this with the Secure Act and, obviously, an important part of the retirement planning, a topic that we need to address.

[00:02:43] TB: Yeah. It’s one of those overlooked things until you’re kind of right up against it, unfortunately. And we kind of talk about it at a high level more with regard to your investment assets and what has yet to be taken by Uncle Sam.

I always kind of talk through, if you have a million dollars in a traditional IRA, a million dollars in a Roth IRA and a million dollars in a brokerage account, like how much money do you have? And unfortunately, it’s not $3 million. Because at least in the traditional IRA, when that money goes in pre-tax, it’s tax coming out. So if you’re in a 25% tax bracket to keep the math simple, you have 750,000 of that and Uncle Sam has 250,000. So you’re in a partnership with Uncle Sam in that account.

The big difference or when where RMDs come into play is that, just like when we retire, or how we retire, or things like that, we’re not always in control of how that money is to be poured into retirement. And, essentially, what the government says is, “Hey, remember all of those years that you were able to defer? Now we’re kind of requiring you to distribute those assets over time based on a table in terms of how much you actually have to do or actually have to distribute.” So we’ll kind of talk about that in this episode.

[00:04:16] TU: Yeah. And I really do believe, while this is a topic that I think tends to focus more on those that are nearing retirement planning, to build that retirement paycheck. Really, for folks at all stages of their career, even if I’m early on in my journey, really understanding how RMDs can be helpful in understanding, as you mentioned, the different bucket than how you’re saving and even some of the early investing strategies. So stay tuned regardless of where you are throughout your career.

Tim, let’s start with the definition. What exactly is an RMD? Requirement minimum distribution?

[00:04:49] TB: So this is the minimum amount that you must withdraw from your retirement account each year. I think that’s how the IRS defines it. And essentially, what it means is that if you have that million dollars in your traditional IRA that we talked about, you don’t have to pour all million dollars out in one year and Uncle Sam gets 250,000 and you get 750,000. That’s just used for kind of illustrative purposes.

But depending on your age, you have to pour out a portion of that million dollars. And essentially, what it’s doing is it’s forcing you to pay the tax on those pre-tax retirement accounts. And this has moved over time.

I think, Tim, when I first started learning about studying for the CFP and things like that, the age four required minimum distributions was 17 and a half years old. Now it’s 72. And this is part of the changes of the Secure Act. It’s going to move to 73. And then I think starting in 2033, the age will be 75. That’s a benefit for us. Our required minimum distribution at present will be 75 years old.

What that means is that we can hold on to these investments in the tax-preferred account longer. Now what the government is saying is that, yeah, you could hold on it longer. We also know that you’re living longer. So that’s one of the things that you’re trying to do.

The accounts that are in question, Tim, that often require – not often but do require minimum distributions are the 401K, the 403B, the 457, the TSP, the traditional IRA, SEP IRA, SARSEP IRA and then the simple IRA. These are the ones. Again, most people don’t have SARSEPs these days.

And then what’s weird is most Roth accounts do not require RMDs, which is one of the main advantages of a Roth. However, today, in 2023, and this will change in 2024, if you have – with YFP, we have a 401K with YFP. Part of the dollars that I invest into our YFP 401K goes to a pre-tax, a traditional 401K. But a good chunk of my dollars go into a Roth 401K.

If I were 73 and I had a balance in that Roth 401K, technically, I would still have to take an RMD from that account. In 2024 and Beyond, RMDs will no longer be required from those designated Roth 401K, 403B. So another little quirk in the –

[00:07:34] TU: Tim, just to highlight that for a moment because I think that’s point of confusion that’s going on right now. Roth IRAs have been like that. If you have a million dollars in a Roth IRA, as you highlighted, the buckets, a little bit earlier, you’re not required to draw from that in terms of what would come out of it with taxes. And we’ll talk about how that could impact beneficiaries if that money was transferred here in a moment.

And so, really, the change you’re referring to is for what has been a more popular employer-sponsored account. We see more and more people that are in these Roth 401Ks or in Roth 403Bs. Where the Roth is a part of an employer-sponsored account. And up until – coming up in 2024, those would have required an RMD even though they had the Roth term. But that’s going to change. Correct?

[00:08:22] TB: Correct.

[00:08:22] TU: Okay.

[00:08:23] TB: Yep.

[00:08:24] TU: So will that be a part of it will, part of it won’t? I’m thinking about my situation, right? I’ve got all this Roth 401K money that’s sitting in that bucket that’s pre-2024 and then after 2024. So some of it will be subject to RMD. Some of it will not?

[00:08:43] TB: No. When you’re in retirement, the only thing that’s going to be subject to an RMD for you would be what’s in your traditional 401K and any – if you still have a 403B, if you have a 457, a traditional. So it won’t be – that rule, you’re not going to have to take a little bit out of the Roth in 401K in the future. No.

I guess, in 2024, no one will be taking any money out of a Roth 401K or 403B for the purpose of an RMD. It was just one of those weird rules that kind of just needed to be satisfied. And I think that was put into the Secure Act 2.0.

[00:09:21] TU: Got it. Okay. So talk to us about Roths. And one of the main advantages I often – I guess debates I often hear around Roth is the whole tax rate today, tax rate in the future. But I think what we don’t talk enough about is the benefit of Roth’s not being required to withdraw that money until after death. So not only not having an RMD, right? Which is a positive. But also, that there’s not a requirement of those monies being withdrawn. So tell us more about that.

[00:09:49] TB: Yeah. So as part of the Roth – and again, you think about it from the government’s perspective. So the government, although we joke inefficient and like why the heck are we doing this? Or why is it written this way? From the government’s perspective, they’re looking to access tax dollars where they can. And for a Roth, they’ve already taxed those monies.

A Roth IRA is contributed with after-tax dollars. Again, the example I use is if I make $100,000 and I put I put $5,000 into a Roth IRA, the government taxes me in that year as if I made $100,000. So I don’t get a deduction for that. So it goes in after-tax and then it grows tax-free.

As those investments – as that $5,000 grows to 10,000, 15,000, I’m not paying capital gains tax on those dollars. When I pour that out in retirement, that doesn’t hit my 1040. I don’t get a 10 – like I’m not reporting that as taxable income. So the government doesn’t really care because they’ve already taken their bite of the apple. With Roth IRAs and then Roth 401Ks, 403Bs, especially heading into 2024, you’re not required to take RMDs.

Now if you inherit a Roth. Say you inherit a Roth from a deceased spouse, essentially, what you’re going to want to do is roll that over into your name and then no RMD will be required. If you inherit a Roth, say, from like a parent or something like that or any type of non-spouse, typically, there is an RMD required and it’s typically over a 10-year timeline. And that’s just the kind of exhaust the legacy account and close that out.

That’s one of the major bene – so I think one of the major benefits of the Roth and probably not talked about it directly is control, right? Because in a Roth, you are controlling when you’re paying the taxes, today. Whereas in a traditional, it’s kind of you put your finger in the sky. You don’t really know what your tax – your marginal tax rate is going to be in the future. We have no idea.

The government, the Congress could say, “Hey, these are the new –” the IRS could say, “Hey, these are the new tax brackets.” They’re a lot more than what they are today. Or they could go down. I think most people think that taxes are going to go up. That’s one of the benefits of like, “Hey, pay the tax now and go from there.

But the other thing that often doesn’t get talked about is, if I’m going to retire in Florida, Tim, we know that Ohio – one of the reasons I put a lot of money into Roth now is because – because we’re business owners, one of the weird nuances is that we don’t get hit with taxes for the first set amount of dollars that we make as business owners.

Right now, I’m like, “Okay, that’s a good opportunity for me to kind of circumvent.” It’s almost like I live in Florida or Texas from a – but if I didn’t have that and I was going to retire to Florida or Texas, where I don’t have state income tax, and I’m going to pour that out then, then that’s another thing that we have to kind of consider.

With Roth, it’s about control. It’s the control of when you’re paying your taxes or a known quantity of what your tax bill is going to be. But then it’s also I don’t have the burden of being forced to distribute the account when I don’t want to.

That is a huge benefit to a lot of people, is being able to have control over the tax rate and the time. And again, that’s not to say that these traditional accounts are bad. They’re not. They’re good, in fact. But when we kind of get the question of like where should I have my money? It’s a little bit in pre-tax. It’s a little bit in after tax. And it’s a little bit in tax-free. And I think all of those are going to play an important part as you approach retirement.

[00:13:53] TU: Yeah. And Tim, I wasn’t aware of the difference between the spouse versus non-spouse with a Roth being passed on to a beneficiary.

[00:14:03] TB: They’ve changed those rules like recently too. Yeah. Because it used to have stretch. And the stretch IRAs and inherited IRAs. And there’s lots of different nuances with that. And even the rules around inherited IRAs are pretty complex. Like they’re not straightforward if you’re an entity, versus a non-spouse, versus a spouse, versus keeping it in the decedent’s name or your name. There’s lots of different things that are going on there.

[00:14:31] TU: This too is another example we just talked about in the last episode of how we don’t want to look at any in a silo, right? For our younger practitioners who are listening that may be working through something like a student loan, forgiveness strategy, right? Implications here of traditional versus Roth contributions on the student loan equation.

We’ve talked about that before. We don’t need to go down that rabbit hole now. But when we talk about like Roth or traditional, another example yet where it’s not just a blanket, this one is better than the other, right? It really does depend in someone’s whole situation.

[00:15:03] TB: Yep.

[00:15:04] TU: Tim, how are the RMDs calculated?

[00:15:07] TB: The required minimum distribution for any year is – essentially, the way I learn this is that you look back for the balance. So this is the balance of your 401K, your IRA, your SEP IRA. So you look back at 12-31 of 2022 as an example. And then you look ahead, essentially, the year of – so if I’m turning 76 this year, that I look at that year as the year that I need for the IRS’s uniform lifetime table.

What do I mean by that? Let’s do an example to kind of flush this out. Let’s pretend it’s June 2023, which it is. And I’ve just turned 76. Or I’m about to turn 76. Essentially, when I look at age 76, the IRS uniform lifetime table returns a column. It’s distribution period in years of 23.7.

As a 76-year-old, essentially, I have 23.7 years to distribute the account out. So that’s the factor that I use. I go and I pull my statement from the end of last year and I see that, in my traditional IRA, I had $250,000. I take that $250,000 and then I divide it by that factor from the IRS table as a 76-year-old. $250 000 divided by 23.7. And it says that my required minimum distribution for that year is $10,548.52.

That is what I’m required to distribute to kind of – to not be penalized by not taking the proper RMD. Essentially, I would work with my advisor and I would say, “Okay, at a minimum, I need to, either in a lump sum or in payments over the course of – we would probably just build this into the retirement paycheck. That, hey, we need to essentially allocate this amount of cash from the IRA and make sure that that satisfies the RMD requirement. That’s the first example, Tim. Did you have a question?

[00:17:18] TU: Yeah. And so, in that example, 10,548, right? You mentioned $50,000 balance in your traditional IRA. [inaudible 00:17:25] 10,500, that would be the required minimum distribution. That 10,500 is then taxed as ordinary income, correct?

[00:17:34] TB: Correct. If the custodian is what we use that TD Ameritrade, which is TD Schwab. Essentially, TD Schwab would send me a 1099R and it would show that distribution. And essentially, I would be working with Sean, my CPA, when I go to file my taxes. And that would show up as income. I might still have some W2 income or I might have some other 1099 contract income of doing some consultant and when I’m 76. Maybe I’m doing that for YFP in the future.

I might have some W2 income. I might have some 1099 income. And then this 1099R our income would be recorded on my taxes. And then depending on what tax bracket I’m in, that’s when I would be taxed.

Right now, if I’m in a 25% tax bracket versus maybe when I’m 76 – I know I’m conflating years and everything. But maybe when I’m 76, maybe I’m in a 12% tax bracket. So that would be benefit to essentially – let’s say I’m earning less than $90,000, which is the 12% bracket for married filing jointly. That’s kind of what’s at play here. You basically get the 1099R and record it in your taxes in that year.

[00:18:50] TU: Okay. Got it.

[00:18:52] TB: Another example of this is let’s pretend, Tim, that I have a traditional IRA, a SEP IRA and a 401K. Same fact pattern. It’s June 2023. I’ve just turned 76. And that distribution period in years is still 23.7. When I look at my statement, I see that, okay, I still have the $250,000 IRA. But I also have $100,000 in my SEP IRA and I have $500,000 in my 401K.

My RMD this year, if I take 250,000 and divide it by 23.7, it’s still at 10,548. The SEP IRA, $100,000 divided by the same factor, 23.7. The RMD for that is now $4,219.41. That’s still in addition to the 10,500 from the traditional.

And then the 401K of half a million dollars I have to distribute. So, $500,000 divided by 23.7. I have to distribute 21,000. We’ll call it 21,1000. $21,000. My total RMD across all three of those accounts is $35,865.

Now just to make this even more complex, Tim, with the traditional and the SEP, I could take all of that out of my traditional. That’s the bigger account. Or I could take that all out of the SEP if I wanted to. With the 401K, I have to take it out of the 401K.

Or let’s say I had a 403B. I would have to take it out of the 403B. So those that are administered by the employer, or in my case, a previous employer, I have to take it out of those plans if I have those IRAs that I’m managing. Or an advisor is managing for my benefit, I can aggregate those and have that come out of one. That’s one of kind of the nuances there.

[00:20:53] TU: That makes sense. So the I in IRA is an individual account, right? It stands for individual. In that example, we had a traditional and a SEP. You could take the RMD out of one of those accounts. Either the tradition or the SEP. But since the 401K was an employer-sponsored account, that RMD has to come directly out of that account.

[00:21:11] TB: Yep. Correct.

[00:21:12] TU: Okay. Got it. So we’re going to talk in a little bit about why this topic really matters and some of the strategies to reduce CRMDs. But let’s talk about the penalty side of this. What happens if, Tim, I don’t take an RMD? So maybe I’m not familiar with the rules. I’m DIYing this and just not paying attention to logistics or something gets overlooked. What happens in that case?

[00:21:33] TB: In the old rules, before the Secure ACT 2.0, it would be basically 50% of what you fail to take that would be taxed. In the case that I was saying, it’s like if I had to take 10,500, 5,200 of that would be basically the penalty. And then you’d have to file form 5329 in your federal tax return for the year that the RMD was not taken.

With the new rules, it’s basically they tried to make this less – they try to soften this a little bit. So now it’s 25%, which is still substantial. And then if you correct it within two years, it’s 70 – it’s 10%. Excuse me. One of the things – again, one of the weird nuances is let’s say I’m turning 72 this year. Technically, I don’t have to take the R in the first year. Don’t ask me why is this, Tim. In the first year, I don’t have to take the RMD until April of next year.

But then every subsequent year I have to take it before the end of the year. Let’s pretend I say, “Oh, I didn’t take it. I’m taking it April 15th right before I file my taxes.” But then in that same – if I have to take that 10,500. In that same year, I have to take another RMD for 73. That’s another one of the weird nuances. Yeah, it’s 25%. But 10% if it’s corrected within the first two years.

[00:22:54] TU: I mean, even 10% is no joke though, right?

[00:22:58] TB: Yeah. I mean, some of these rules is like if you over contribute, it’s like a 6% excise. When you go from 50% even down to 25% or 10%, it’s – and the dollars get bigger. I mean, your balances are supposed to get smaller. But every year – so when you go from like 76, where the factor is 23.7, the next year at 77, it’s 22.9.

And one of the things that the IRS has done is they extended it out. I think it goes all the way up to like age 120 and older. But at 110, as an example, the factor is 3.5. If you have a million dollars at 110, about $300,000 and $400,000 is what you have to distribute in that year. The factors get smaller, which means that the RMD gets bigger as you age. Again, if you’re not doing it properly, the penalties can be quite robust.

[00:23:54] TU: Whether we like the rules or not, Tim, they are what they are, right? We’ve got to factor them in. We’ve got to plan for this. And my mind is spinning around, “Okay, I’ve got all these different buckets of funds that I’ve been building throughout my accumulation phase.” Right? We’ve talked about some of the alphabet soup here in this episode. And now there’s this strategy of how I withdraw not only from those buckets. But also, how do I factor in the RMDs? And in which order? Which priority?

At the end of the day, the topic matters, I think, as you try to build a retirement paycheck and think about the order of withdrawal and how you’re going to put together that paycheck in retirement.

[00:24:33] TB: Yeah. I mean, if you look at what are the sources of income that you’re going to have in your retirement paycheck, one of the big ones is going to be Social Security, which, as we continue to go on, more and more people, their Social Security will be taxed. Because a lot of the phase-outs for that have not been adjusted for inflation.

But if you think about it, the average today, Social Security check, per month, per recipient, it’s like $1,780. Just about 21,000 and change per year. That might be your baseline. And then for most people, if I need $80,000, then 60,000 is going to come from your traditional investments.

And what we’ve seen here is, in this example, 35,000 of that has – in this example, has to come from the traditional, right? So then you’re playing the game of like, “Okay, if I’m trying to get to 60,000, that still puts me in a 12% tax bracket.” Again, if I’m just looking at myself and not necessarily Shay.

What is she getting from Social Security? What does her RMD look like? Are we going to try to fill up the 12% tax bracket? Are we looking at the 225 tax bracket? Are we pulling anything from Roth at all?

I think, again, having the ability to pull from pre-tax, you have to, especially with the RMDs. But then to then move to something like a brokerage account, which is after tax to a tax-free, which is a Roth. All of those things are going to be in play to make the most efficient play at building a retirement paycheck.

And depending on where – again, if you have certain assets in certain accounts, they are not going to be optimized with kind of the strategy. You have to be wary of that too. What are the things that are going to be most volatile or higher risk, higher return? Most capital gains, things associated with that. Those are all going to be important when you’re kind of building this out.

Is there an annuity? A lot of annuities if you buy a qualified annuity. If you take some money out of your traditional IRA, so to speak, to buy an annuity, those have RMDs. And a lot of that can satisfy the RMD or delay it. There’s some strategies there. There’s lots of tax implications. But also, how does this relate to your investment allocation? The location of certain assets? It’s all very nuanced.

[00:27:10] TU: Yeah. And Tim, the place that I’m thinking about right now, I’m 15 years into my career. I put myself in that mid-career bucket. But so much of building a retirement paycheck and all this strategy we’re talking about really starts with ‘in what buckets are you saving’, right?

I think sometimes there’s a tendency that, “Hey, we need to save whatever big number.” Right? Two, three, four million dollars. And we just start saving, saving saving.

And saving is good, especially if we’re doing it over a long period of time. But saving intentionally so that we’re thinking about this from a distribution sense, I think we often disconnect that accumulation and decumulation phase. And, really, prioritizing that. Really, the accumulation, optimization, and the strategy around that, especially in a tax-efficient way, really starts back in the accumulation phase.

[00:27:58] TB: Correct. Yeah. It’s kind of building – we talked about building a foundation of an emergency fund and getting the debt – the consumer debt in line and having a plan for this student loan. But this is right there in terms of, again, bucket selection. But then inside of those buckets, what assets are we actually put in? And are they the best for the long run? Yeah, those are definitely in play.

And again, I think it’s often an overlooked thing. And this is where – and again, it’s not necessarily like if you’re required to distribute your account, that doesn’t necessarily – it doesn’t mean that you have to consume it. You can always direct those dollars elsewhere. Whether it’s a brokerage account or it could be real estate. It could be paying for a grandkid’s education or something like that. There are things that you don’t necessarily have to like move those dollars off your balance sheet.

But, essentially, what’s in play here is the efficiency related to tax. And, again, in the context of like, “Okay, what is it that I need to sustain a retirement paycheck for from now until age 95, 100, 105, 110?” And that’s difficult to do.

[00:29:13] TU: Yeah. And I’m thinking about this from a household perspective, right? Tim, you mentioned you’ve got, often, two people, multiple accounts. So now you’re talking about additional layers of complexity. Maybe different timelines of retirement and when they need those funds and goals that they have. This is where I really want for Jess and I. I want the two of us with our CFP and the CPA in the same room whiteboarding and kind of masterminding this to make sure that we’re really thinking about it from every angle.

[00:29:43] TB: Yep.

[00:29:45] TU: Finally, I know many of our listeners are thinking what I’m thinking, which is, “Hey, what can we do to optimize this? What can we do to potentially reduce the impact of the RMDs?”

[00:29:55] TB: Yeah. So there are a few things. RMDs are inevitable, right? If you use any of these accounts – and again, I would still advocate for the use of these accounts because the long-term benefits of having tax-deferred growth is a huge benefit. I don’t want to say it’s not. I don’t want people to think I don’t want to use these accounts because I don’t want to have to pay RMDs.

There’s a few strategies that you can employ. If you are still employed and you’re kind of within that RMD age. Let’s use 72, 73. You can delay your 401K RMDs. Not necessarily your IRA RMDs. But your 401K RMDs from your employer until you retire. You just can’t be a 5% owner, Tim, for you and I. Like that wouldn’t imply. We would still have to take RMDs.

Probably one of the biggest things that you can do is just get money out of those buckets. So this would be things like Roth conversions. Essentially, over your career, you can identify times that it makes sense because of lower earning years. You’re still paying the taxes on it. But you’re doing it in more of a controlled way versus here’s the balance, here’s the factor, and then that’s your RMD.

One way that you can do it is just manage the distribution. So most people take RMDs either in a series of payments or through like a lump sum at the end of the year. One strategy that you can, which, again, we bring up annuity, which is sometimes a bad word for people. But you can invest in a QLAC.

A QLAC is a qualified longevity annuity contract. This is the deferred fixed annuity that you purchase with funds from your retirement account. Like a traditional 401K or a traditional IRA. And typically, because there is a promise in the future to pay out those funds, one of the special things about this is that there’s no required distributions until 85. Until age 85. You can push that out for a decade or so.

The big selling point for this is, if you’re looking at – in the example I gave, “Hey, I had $500,000 in my 401K.” And that means that the RMD for this year is 21,000. I really don’t want to do that. I can peel off 100,000 or 200,000 and put that into a QLAC. And that lessens the burden from what’s coming out from the 401K. That is a strategy that you can use.

Charitable donations. So you can either – you can do this one of two ways. And I think it just depends on the tax situation. You can make a QCD, a qualified charitable distribution, which is a direct transfer from your retirement account right to a qualified charity. And this will be basically excluded taxable income, which will lower your tax bill. Or you can use your RMD to make charitable donations and kind of get a – that’s typically where, again, you’re going to use the itemized deduction and maybe want to do a bunch in strategy or things like that to get the most benefit. So those are ways to kind of reduce or delay or get around the RMD, which at the end of the day is inevitable.

[00:33:17] TU: Tim, great stuff. I feel like we’ve covered a lot of length in a short period of time a topic, again, that we haven’t talked about in great detail. We’ll certainly be coming back to this more as we talk about some of the retirement planning strategies. But again, a great episode regardless of what stage of career that you’re in.

For those that are listening and say, “Hey, I’d love to have someone in my corner really thinking about this from an investment, retirement planning strategy,” we’d love an opportunity to talk with you further about the financial planning services that we offer at YFP planning. You can learn more and book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Again, that’s yfpplanning.com.

Tim, great stuff. We’ll be back here in the future.

[00:33:57] TB: Thanks, Tim.

[OUTRO]

[00:33:58] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the date publish. Such information may contain forward-looking statements are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacists.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 313: 4 Reasons Your Financial Planner Should Manage Your Investments

Posted on June 22, 2023October 5, 2023 by Tim U

Tim Baker CFP®, RICP®, RLP® discusses the 4 reasons why your financial planner should manager you investments on this podcast episode sponsored by First Horizon.

Episode Summary

Financial planners often get a bad reputation because people either don’t trust them or they feel like planners are a waste of time — they could be doing the job themselves. So on today’s episode, sponsored by First Horizon, YFP’s Co-founder & Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker is here to discuss the four reasons why having a financial planner is crucial for managing your investments. From our conversation, you’ll gain a better understanding of the type of accounts that a financial planner could manage on your behalf, what an Investment Policy Statement (IPS) is, and why it’s vital for your financial plan. Then, we dive into the 4 reasons why, if it is the right fit, having a financial planner manage your investments is a good idea. Spoiler alert…hiring a financial planner to beat the market didn’t make the list!

Key Points From the Episode

Introducing Tim Baker and today’s topic: Financial planners managing your investments
Taking a closer look at the investment accounts that a financial planner could manage for you.
What an investment policy statement (IPS) is and why it’s important.
How having a financial planner will save you time and bring you peace.
The importance of an integrated financial plan, and how a financial planner can help.
How a financial planner will ensure that don’t fall victim to behavioral mistakes and biases.
Using a planner to avoid technical mistakes, and the common technical errors that Tim sees.
Why the role of a financial planner is not necessarily to help you beat the markets.
What you can look forward to in the next episode.

Episode Highlights

“On my time off, on the weekends or whatever, I would rather pay a professional that knows what the hell they’re doing — they’ve done it, it’s not their first rodeo — than me waste a weekend.” — @TimBakerCFP [14:33]

“The more that you continue on and accumulate wealth; working with a coach [or] a planner is in line with that. The management of the investments and the stress of it should be delegated to someone else.” — @TimBakerCFP [15:31]

“If we don’t have the assets and the investment management integrated with the plan, it’s almost like we’re trying to fight with one hand tied behind our back.” — @TimBakerCFP [19:13]

“I often say that with investment, you often want to do the exact opposite of what you feel. But the statement that you have to make, even before you make that, is that investment is an emotional activity. It is. [And] a lot of that has to do with our aversion to loss.” — @TimBakerCFP [25:12]

“[Go] by the market, don’t try to beat the market, and the market will take care of you — if you invest in it consistently without bad behavior over long periods of time.” — @TimBakerCFP [36:46]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I welcome YFP co-founder and Director of Financial Planning Tim Baker to talk about four reasons you should have your financial planner manage your investments. Spoiler alert, beating the market did not make the list. As a supplement to today’s episode, download our free checklist, “What Issues Should I Consider When Reviewing My Investments.” You can get a copy of that resource by visiting yourfinancialpharmacist.com/investmentreview. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/investmentreview.

Now, at YFP Planning, our team of fee-only certified financial planners pride themselves in helping clients manage their investments in a tax-efficient, low-fee manner. While that in and of itself is a win, that’s just one part of the financial plan. Our planning team that services more than 280 households in 40 plus states guides clients through the entirety of the financial plan, including retirement planning, debt management, wealth protection, and more. All centered around our philosophy of helping you live a rich life today and tomorrow. You can learn more about our one-on-one planning services while visiting yfpplanning.com. Again, that’s yfpplanning.com. Okay, let’s hear from today’s sponsor, First Horizon and then we’ll jump into my interview with Tim Baker.

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[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:40] TU: Tim Baker, good to have you back on the show.

[0:02:42] TB: Good to be back, Tim. How’s it going?

[0:02:44] TU: It is going well. We’re going to be doing back-to-back episodes focused on managing investments. Next week, we’re going to talk about RMDs or required minimum distributions. We’re going to get in the weeds a little bit over the next two weeks, which I’m excited to do as we talk about some of the investing side of the financial plan. Tim, today we’re going to talk about four reasons you should have your financial planner manage your investments. Now, before we get into those four reasons, I want to make sure we’re all on the same page with what we mean by this. So, having your financial planner manage your investments. Talk about this at a high level, so we can have the right context throughout the show.

[0:03:23] TB: Yes. My attitudes have changed about this over time. Really, this is because of just working with pharmacists on their financial plans and just some of the things that we’ve come up against with regard to being effective and efficient with the financial plan. When we say we feel that your advisor, your planner should manage the investments, what we’re talking about are the investments that you’re managing, that you don’t necessarily need to. This means – these are things like your traditional IRA, your Roth IRA, your brokerage account, old 401(k)s, old 403(b), TSPS, 457 Plans. These are things that you’re not actively contributing to as part of like an entire employer-sponsored retirement plan.

What we found over the years, because I used to be more location agnostic, meaning, my viewpoint was, it didn’t really matter where it was. We either manage it or help your management. I think, in theory, that sounds nice. But in application, it’s not, it’s messy, there’s lots of hands in the cookie jar. There’s lots of moving pieces in regards to the financial plan that the investments are absolutely part of that. Our belief is that if there are held away assets, so held away are defined, you know, when advisors talking about this or assets that are not at their custodian. We use that YFP Planning, we use TD Ameritrade, which is recently merged with Charles Schwab. Schwab will be the predominant brand there. We feel that those client assets that can be managed by us, the advisor should be managed by us. We’ll get into a few reasons of why that is. That’s held away piece.

[0:05:25] TU: Let me give a for instance to define these just a little bit further, and hopefully put something that people can hook on to. Tim, if I, let’s say, I’m working with Kroger pharmacy right now, and I’ve been with them for five years, contributing to their 401(k). Then prior to that, I worked for, let’s say, CVS for five years. Once I left CVS, that money, I moved into a traditional IRA, let’s just say for that example. I’ve got $100,000 in an IRA, and then I’ve got this, let’s say, another $100,000 in my current employer, Kroger, with the 401(k).

When you say held away, that Kroger, my current employer count $100,000, would be a held away asset through my current employer and the contributions I’m making. When we talk about today, managing why you should have your financial planner manage your investments. We’re talking about that previous $100,000 that’s sitting in an IRA that maybe I’m self-managing right now, or it could be someone’s listening to another advisor that’s managing for it. But that’s a differentiation we’re making, correct?

[0:06:33] TB: Yes. You’re going to have held away accounts that some are going to be eligible to potentially be moved over for us to manage. That would be like the old employer, and then you’re going to have some that aren’t because you’re actively contributing to said account. Yes, that would be the distinction I would make.

[0:06:50] TU: Okay. An assumption I want to put out there before we get into the weeds here is that when we say why we believe your financial planner should manage your investments. The assumption we’re making is that that planner, from our perspective, best practice is, there’s a fee-only with a fiduciary responsibility. They have a really thoughtful approach to how they’re managing their investments, which would include an investment policy statement, an IPS, where you’re really spending time with the client to understand their goals, understand their risk tolerance. All of that is informing the direction that we’re taking with the investment. Let’s spend a moment just to break that down a little bit more in terms of what is an IPS, and why is that important? Obviously, the context here of fee-only as well.

[0:07:37] TB: Yes, IPS is not something that every advisor has or even employees. I think regulators like this because it’s kind of a set of instructions for them to see how they are managing client accounts. When I was in my first job in financial services, we didn’t have an investment policy statement. We knew, based on a risk tolerance assessment that we give them, that, “Hey, they’re conservative, or they’re a moderate, or they’re an aggressive investor,” but that was essentially it. We had it in their file that that was what they were, and then we try to match up their portfolios at such.

The way that we do it is, before we invest any dollars on behalf of our client, so let’s pretend that we moved that $100,000 over to a rollover IRA at TD Schwab for us to manage for the benefit of the client. Before we do anything with those dollars, we essentially go through a risk tolerance and questioning goals about the investments. And we issue an investment policy statement, so this is something that we send to a client via DocuSign. In the investment policy statement, it’s essentially an executive summary. What the purpose of the document is, and it’s really to outline investment goals, expectations, strategies, and responsibilities related to the portfolio? It’s to create reasonable objectives and guidelines in the investment of your assets.

We outline things like, what was your risk tolerance, what portfolio do we agree to, what is the asset allocation. Is it a moderate 60-40, or is it more aggressive 90-10, or an all-equity portfolio? What is that investment objective? Is it aggressive growth or growth with income? Are there any type of liquidity needs, any type of tax considerations that we should be aware of? What is the time horizon?

If Tim, you’re the client, and you have 25 years left to retire, then the time horizon is 20, 25 years. What type of accounts most of – a lot of our clients will have an IPS, an investment policy statement for retirement accounts, but they might have something that is related to a tax bomb or a more near-term goal. So we have a different asset allocation. We outline what are the duties and responsibilities of reporting. I think one of the fears that people have, if they’re having their advisor manage their asset is, I think they fear that the money’s not theirs. One of the things that I’ll say is that we don’t have necessarily access to the money. We trade the account, but I can’t go in there and say, “Hey, Tim, you move from this part of Ohio to this part of Ohio.” You have to do that yourself. Because they want to make sure that the chain of custody from where they’re sending account statements is not broken. We used to be able to do that recently.

It’s very, very much like we have very deliberate and specific responsibilities related to the portfolio, but we’re not – it’s not our piggy bank, which I think sometimes people get afraid about that. So, we do know the custodian does all the reporting with statements. We talk about what our responsibility is with rebalancing, how often we’re going to review the count if we take discretion or not. Then, part of our IPS is we outline the different positions that we’re in. So we go through what’s our large cap, or mid-cap, and all the different positions that we’re in related to the portfolio, what the allocation is, some nerdy stock analysis.

What parts of the world that we’re invested in, so whether that’s North America or Asia developing, Asia emerging, Latin America, what the bonds look like, so if they’re double A or single A, we show performance. We look back one, three, five years and show the annualized return, the risk, some charts. We’ll show what the income is on this portfolio. It’s a look back in terms of what the yield is, the stress test, which is a big thing. In the subprime mortgage crisis, this is how the portfolio would react, or when coronavirus happened, or the tech bubble? So, we show some of the stress testing on that. Then, the expense, which often is a huge driver in the overall ability for the portfolio to grow, what does the expense of the overall portfolio look like? That’s our north star, Tim. That’s the document that we use to trade and manage the portfolio as we go here.

[0:12:44] TU: I think that’s time really well spent, right? Because I think for folks, as you mentioned, especially I would say for people who have maybe not worked with an advisor before, who have gone through this type of process or experience where you have someone that is helping to manage your investments. This can feel scary, it can feel big, it can feel — at least as you hear, for the first time, a little bit like a black hole. I think when done well, and that’s the backdrop. We’re assuming as we go through these four points here today. When done well, as you just described in great detail, there’s a lot of time spent, a lot of thought, a lot of attention to make sure that there’s alignment and the decisions that are being made.

Obviously, that’s an important part of the trust process as you’re working with a financial planner, and that should be something that you feel good about, number one. And that you understand and make sure you understand as you’re reviewing those documents and having the conversations with the planner.

[0:13:34] TB: Yes, absolutely.

[0:13:34] TU: With that in mind, let’s talk through four reasons that we believe you should have your financial planner manage your investments. Tim, number one, perhaps most obvious on the list is saving time. I’m busy; I don’t have to worry about this, maybe less stress involved as well. Tell us more about this.

[0:13:50] TB: Yes, I definitely think it’s a time thing. Obviously, this is something that we often talk about, less is more. But I think having your hand on the wheel with regard to this is important. I probably even more so than time; it’s just the brain capacity, Tim. I think sometimes we often really undersell or overlooked fee, the things that drag on our mind that don’t necessarily need to. I always – we’ve kind of talked about how the two of us were not necessarily the most handy people in the world. Could I go out and learn basic plumbing and things like that? Yeah.

But I look at that as, like, on my time off, on the weekends or whatever, I would rather pay a professional that knows what the hell they’re doing; they’ve done it; it’s not their first rodeo. Than me waste a weekend, and either complete it at an hourly rate that is well below that than what I would make during my day job, or that it’s half done or not done. That’s the thing, is like –

[0:14:58] TU: With some curse words.

[0:14:59] TB: With a lot of curse words, and stress, and things like that. That’s just my mentality. I think that becomes more of a thing. The more you look at yourself as a professional as pharmacists should, right? To me, this is an area. We talked about this with small – it’s kind of a no-brainer with small business owners. The first thing that probably needs to go is bookkeeping. It’s one of those things, and I would say that the more that you continue on and accumulate wealth, this thing, working with a coach, a planner is in line with that. And the management of the investments and the stress of it should be delegated to someone else. Obviously, again, it assumes you trust the person, the team that you’re with, which is not something that I take lightly, or anyone takes take lightly. One on our team takes lightly.

One of the things that I really like about being a financial planner is that you’re in that position of trust, and I think pharmacists can relate to that. Again, not taking that lightly, I think is important. But just think about the convenience, and ease of management, paperwork that’s involved. I would love to be more paperless than we are now. We’re getting there. But it’s a slow go. But the ongoing account maintenance, rebalance, and other strategies that you’re going. If you can delegate that to others, I think that’s a huge time savings, but just a brain capacity savings. Then, I think you see this with people in the accumulation stage. But I think, even more so, retirees. I’ve joked about this with my dad, like when he retired, he was no longer doing his day job. He knew that I was, obviously, building out my business and I’m a financial planner.

It was almost like every time that we talked, we talked about the market. He almost preoccupied this, and it was almost a substitute for his job. His livelihood is very much connected to what the market is doing. But I think if you’re doing it correctly, you want to inoculate yourself as best you can. Those near-term ups and downs should not really affect your overall well-being. So to me, a lot of people miss the mark on that. I think that’s where a professional can help you as well.

[0:17:22] TU: Tim, that’s a really good example in terms of the retirement and the preoccupied nature of investments. It’s funny, my father, father-in-law, every time we visit, this comes up within 10 minutes prior. We’re talking about the markets and trends. I think it’s just human behavior that now you get more time available than you did, obviously, than when you’re working. But you’re thinking about things like distributions and strategies, especially if you’re DIY’ing this and not working with a planner.

The ups and downs of volatility, especially the period we’ve been in here the last couple of years that can weigh on you. I think having someone in your corner to help talk you through that, coach you through it, making sure that we’re sticking to the plan, and that we have accountability to stay to that plan, it’s important all the way throughout, but probably even more important than that time period, where you just have the time and it’s front and center top of mind.

[0:18:14] TB: Yes, and I probably should give my dad less of a hard time. He’s probably just trying to find ways to engage me and talk about my business and things like that. But I know for a lot of retirees, definitely one of the things that they talk about quite a bit.

[0:18:29] TU: Number two on our list is ensuring an integrated approach, that we’re not considering this in a silo. Something we talked about often on the show, Tim, that it’s really important we look across the entire financial plan. When we’re looking at investments, retirement planning, debt pay down, insurance, any part of the financial plan that we’re really looking in its entirety, and we’re not just focused on one part of the plan, perhaps at the expense of other parts. Tell us more here.

[0:18:58] TB: Yes. I think, just like we talked about systems of the body, everything’s interconnected. I think one of the things that we’ve learned over from my time at script financial and now, YFP Planning is that if we don’t have the assets and the investment management integrated with the plan, it’s almost like we’re trying to fight with one hand tied behind our back. What we’re really trying to do here see the full picture. We want to make sure that the investment philosophy and management of such assets is aligned with your goals and your life plan. I’m a big, big believer in purpose-based investments. Another buzzword. But what I often find with people that are coming in the door, even do-it-yourself investors is, I’ll say, obviously, Roth 401(k), a Roth IRA, a traditional IRA, we know that those are for retirement by and large.

But I’ll often will see brokerage accounts and accounts like that. I’m like, “What is this money for?” It’s like, “Well, I don’t know.” Why do we even have it? So really aligning and drawing clear lines of distinction between what this bucket of money is for and executing to that. But probably – so you have that, which is more broad to the overall financial plan, but then making sure there’s alignment with other technical areas of the plan. Whether that be debt, the tax situation, retirement. It could be estate and charitable given. All of those things are interconnected. I think if you don’t have eyes on our hands on that, again, it makes our job a lot easier. From the depth perspective, Tim, we know this with regard to PSLF, and non-PSLF, that these things are interconnected. Oftentimes, they are disconnected if they’re not managed, I think, by a QB, one person that is overseeing the plan.

We know that tax is another thing. Is there synergy with the financial plan and the tax plan? By and large, most advisors will say, “Hey, that’s a tax question, go talk to your accountant.” Which is like nails on a chalkboard for me. That’s one of the things that we do differently. We have YFP tax that works in concert with YFP planning. We have a CFP, that is your financial planner, that is working in tandem with a CPA, which is your tax accountant. Looking at things like, are we going to have a big refund? Are we going to owe a lot of taxes at the end of this year? What are the tax loss harvesting strategies as we get more advanced multi-year tax planning? It might be bunching for charitable giving.

We know that retirement and the investment strategy is intertwined. In the accumulation phase, which a lot of our clients are in, that simply bucket creation, so having the different buckets. But then, where are we putting different assets? A lot of people don’t think that probably in your Roth, you need your most appreciable assets, which might be small cap or emerging market. Should probably go there. Where do we put tax advantage accounts that are in the brokerage, or is that somewhere else?

Just knowing where to actually put the investments that you’re putting in that bucket is important in the accumulation stage, where a lot of people overlook that. Then in the deaccumulation, or the withdrawal strategy, whether you’re using a foreign strategy, a bucket strategy, a systemic withdrawal strategy. All of these have rules, Tim, that are clearly linked to the traditional portfolio, and how we either refill bucket one with bucket two or refill bucket two with bucket three. Or how we’re going to with inflation and the gains on the portfolio. How are we going to essentially send that paycheck to you in concert with social security in 2024? How do we create the floor? What are the tools that we’re going to use, and then how are we going to supplement from the investment strategy, and give those dollars to you in retirement?

Then, just overall, how do we manage the liquidity needs. There’s lots of things that happen in real-time. Over the course of many years, that if we’re managing through the client by proxy, is a is a challenge. We’ve had instances where clients will be upset because they’re trading their own accounts, and this is related to tax, and they’re generating lots of short-term capital gains. Then they’re upset with us because our projections are off. It’s like, “But we don’t have any visibility or vantage point of what you’re doing in these accounts that we’re not controlling or we’re not overseeing for you.”

It’s one of those things that, this is what we do. We do this for our clients across the board, and we think we do it well. So working in that way, I think, is important for us, and I think for the effectiveness of the overall financial plan.

[0:24:22] TU: Tim, I think for folks that are hearing some of these terms for the first time, when you talk about things like flooring, bucket tragedy, systemic withdrawal. We talked about this on episode 275 of the podcast, where we had a month-long series on retirement planning, and that episode specifically. We talk about how to build a retirement paycheck. I hope folks will check that episode out in more detail. That’s number two. Ensuring that we have an integrated approach. I think you explained that well, Tim. Number three, which is one that maybe our DIYers are going to get a hate, that we’re challenging this. But this is avoiding behavioral mistakes and biases. Tim, I tend to fall under this – I’ve come to appreciate where I need help. But perhaps, I’m over overconfidence, and really understanding the behavioral mistakes and the biases that we may fall victim to.

[0:25:11] TB: Yes, I often say that with investment, you often want to do the exact opposite of what you feel. But the statement that you have to make, even before you make that is that, investment is an emotional activity. It is. A lot of that has to do with our aversion to loss. Sometimes, it can be also chasing a big payoff if we’re doing things like chasing hot stocks. The market volatility, I think, really plays on our emotion. I always joke, like when the market took a downturn during the Corona Virus or during the subprime mortgage crisis. As you’re seeing your portfolio go from X to X minus 30%, 35%, you want to then take your investment ball and go home, Tim. It doesn’t feel good to see your balance get sawed off like that. But it often leads to bad behavior, and that’s typically where we’re doing things like selling low and buying high.

When we sell to avoid that pain, then we wait on the sideline and buy when the market seems like it’s returned to normal. All of that upside. Again, l think people don’t see this in themselves. I would say that, Tim, that this is true for advisors as well. It absolutely is. But I would say that, if you’re, again – I’ve talked about this, related to the any type of salary negotiation. The big disadvantage that you have as an employee of a company when you’re – or a prospective employee of a company is that you might have a dozen times during your life where you’re negotiating on your behalf with an employer. Whereas your counterpart, whether it’s a hiring manager, an HR manager, they might do it a dozen times in that week. You’re at a disadvantage just because of reps. I’m not saying that we as humans or as advisors, we don’t have these. It’s just that I think we’re more aware of it, and we try to mitigate that with the way that we build out our portfolios.

The behavior thing is huge, and that can be again, it can be chasing hot stocks, it can be trading too much, trying to time the market, which we talked about the buying high, and selling low. Ignoring diversification that’s another issue. Sometimes we see portfolios that are overloaded in tech stocks or one particular security or even act on unreasonable expectations. I still frequently we’ll talk to people who are super confident in their prowess as an investor. But they will say things that just are not in line with reality. Like, “Hey, within the next year, I really want to start making passive income off of my portfolio.” I’m like, “That’s not a real thing in any time in the near future.”

We have to be aware of our common biases, and I think a lot of the ones that you mentioned are things like overconfidence. I probably see that the most. Typically, that is more male than female. It’s just the reality of situation. But even things like hindsight bias, like, of course, the market went down, and this is why. Or herd mentality, or overreaction, these are all biases that I think that we don’t see in ourselves that really can affect our ability to grow our portfolios consistently over time.

We always cite Vanguard. Vanguard has done an advisor alpha study. Vanguard doesn’t have advisors. They’re kind of – they don’t necessarily have a horse in the race, but they basically said that an advisor can add 3% per year in return to your assets. Half of that Tim, 1.5%. I think it’s 2.9 or it might be three. But essentially half of that, Tim, is related to behavior. Paul Eichenberg, he talks about – he does manage some cash, or some investments himself. But he basically said, the core of his investments, what he talks about is, there’s a wall between him and his investments. It’s just so he doesn’t do anything foolish or crazy. That’s part of this as well, is sometimes, something – it’s the overreaction, something happens in the market and it’s like, part of our job is to say, “Hey, we’re okay here. Let’s continue to execute to the plan that we have in place.” The behavior and the emotion drives so much of this, and it can either be bad behavior or you can, again, delegate that out to help you with that.

[0:30:19] TU: Yes. I think, Tim, the time we’re in right now with the volatility, we talked about this a little while going in Episode 213 of investing considerations in a volatile market. But we are living at firsthand the ups and downs, the announcements from the Fed, the anticipation, the reaction to that, the inflation numbers. I mean, it’s just June, June, June. More than ever, I think there’s that risk of access to information volatility on top of that. Obviously, there can be some fear that’s layered on top of that, as well. All of a sudden, we’re feeling that edge to make a move, make some decisions, move our investments. Obviously, there’s tax considerations. There’s timing of the market; you talked about those considerations that can have a negative impact as well.

Great explanation there. Number three on the avoiding behavioral mistakes and biases. Number four probably the favorite of our team. Right, Tim? As it relates to clean these up, is avoiding some of the technical mistakes. You’ve talked about this at length on the show as it relates to backdoor Roth and some of the mistakes. I think one of the challenges here, and we even talk about this behind the scenes that we love putting out content and education. We do a lot of it. But as I often say, in presentations, one of my fears is that I’m oversimplifying information to try to explain and to do in a short period of time. And that someone may run, make some decisions, and maybe not have the full understanding. We just saw that, as we talked about some of the changes that are coming to tax laws and different things. We may not understand the whole picture. Talk to us about avoiding technical mistakes and some of the common ones that we see here.

[0:31:54] TB: Yes. I mean, it’s most base. Sometimes it’s just understanding what accounts that you have. I still hear investors that will say, “I have this mutual fund account.” I’m like, “Well, mutual fund isn’t an account, it’s a type of investment.” That’s very extreme. But then, understanding what are inside of those accounts, those investment accounts, which could be a mutual fund, an ETF, a stock. Again, this is not to – this is not to belittle anyone or make anyone feel bad. Again, I always joke that when I first got out of the Army, I was picking the investments for my 401(k). I looked at all 50 investment choices, or whatever, I’m like – Investing for Dummies, and I bought that book, and I read a few pages, and I’m like, “No, thanks,” and I just picked whatever.

This isn’t something that necessarily is – we know this, Tim. It’s not taught in school or anything. It’s not to make anybody feel bad. It’s just that – this is what we do. It could be the types of accounts that you have, what are in those accounts, transfer accounts wrong. Sometimes this happens where accounts are moved between custodians, and they’re not performed accurately, and that can cause a lot of problems. You have the hyper investor, so it can be someone that’s trading in and out of positions that’s triggered in short-term capital gains tax.

Then, we have issues with the tax bill at the end of the year or other things that are going on. I’ve seen portfolios that have 20, 30, 40 positions, and I’m like, “What the heck is going on? What are we doing? What is the goal of this?” Sometimes it’s just overheard a stock, or I heard this, and I just bought it. Yes, overconcentration. That’s a technical mistake. Is there too much cash in the accumulation, too little cash when you’re in the withdrawal stage?

But yes, one of the things that you’re talking about that, I think, is, again, we gloss over is just things related to backdoor Roth. Most of the people that we are working with are in that Roth IRA eligibility phase-out. So even us managing this as a team, it’s a project. It’s something that we have to be on top of. It’s difficult to do when you have to factor in phase-outs, pro rata rules, you have to look at other accounts that you have, the step transaction rule. There’s lots of things that go into that.

On the technical, I always joke like – kind of related, but unrelated, Tim. When I lived in Ohio the first time, there’s no way that I filed my own Ohio taxes correctly. This is impossible. There’s no way that I did it correctly because of the nuance there. Even some of this stuff is kind of in the same breath; it’s like there’s no way that if I had a similar savviness with regard to investments that I did back in the day, that I would be able to do this correctly without mistake.

There could be a mistake with RMDs for retirements, obviously fees and things like that that are less technical but more an awareness thing. So the list is long with regard to this. Again, what often happens is we read a blog or a podcast. Some say, “Hey, that’s really easy,” and then we do it. Then, the reality is that it’s much more nuanced than – it depends on your particular situation in terms of how to execute some of these strategies.

[0:35:31] TU: Tim, we just talked about four reasons that you should have your financial planner manage your investments. What’s not on the list perhaps is something that everyone is thinking about of, “Hey, I’m going to have my planner manage my investment so that I can beat the market. Isn’t that why I’m hiring you after all? Where’s that on the list?”

[0:35:49] TB: Yes. I mean, I think it’s not on there. I think the reason, Tim is that, in order to beat the market, in order to beat the S&P 500 consistently, and there’s still no guarantee of that, is that you have to spend so much time, effort, energy, and money to do that. They say, we look at the most active mutual fund managers out there. By and large, the research and the studies show that, though, that type of active management in an effort to beat the market does not pay off on a consistent basis.

The strategy that we employ that I feel like a lot of fee-only financial planners employ is more of a passive by the market, don’t try to beat the market, and the market will take care of you if you invest in it consistently without bad behavior over long periods of time. It’s more of a singles and doubles approach versus, “I’m going to hit a home run in 2023, and then strike out for the next three or four years, and then maybe the home run in 2026, 27.” It’s kind of the singles and doubles approach to invest in. And over time, I think that’s a good equation for success.

[0:37:13] TU: We’re going to talk more about that. We have an episode plan for the near future on passive versus active investing, so we’re going to dig into that a little bit more detail in the future. Tim Baker, great stuff. For those that are listening to this episode, and would like to talk with us about the financial planning services at YFP planning and what we offer. Obviously, we’ve talked about managing investment, just one part, an important part, but just one part of financial plan. We would love to have that conversation. You can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Again, that’s yfpplanning.com.

Whether you’re in the early stages of your career, in the middle of your career, nearing retirement, whether you have an advisor, you don’t have an advisor; we’d love to have a conversation to learn more about your situation so you can learn more about us and determine whether or not what we offer is a good fit. Again, book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Tim Baker, great stuff, and looking forward to talking about R&Ds next week.

[0:38:06] TB: Thanks, Tim.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:38:07] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists in the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% downpayment for a single-family home or townhome for first time homebuyers and has no PMI on a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage.

To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, and to get started with the pre-approval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacists.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacists.com/home-loan. As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide, and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog post, and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates publish. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 312: Secrets About Financial Planners (and How to Feel Confident in Who You Partner With)

Posted on June 15, 2023June 12, 2023 by Tim U

Justin Woods, PharmD, MBA shares takeaways from 350 financial conversations with pharmacists looking to work with a financial planner.

Episode Summary

Navigating the world of financial advice can be a tricky thing. You’re often confronted with baffling jargon, an overwhelming amount of choice, and a lack of transparency, which will typically leave you feeling more confused than when you started. Here to help us unpack these topics today is YFP team member, Justin Woods, PharmD, MBA who has had over 350 financial conversations with pharmacists! We talk with Justin about why pharmacists tend to be skeptical when it comes to hiring a financial planner, the various terms and titles used in the financial services industry, and what outcomes you should expect as part of the financial planning process. Tuning in you’ll learn about key factors that hold people back from pursuing financial advice — like previous negative experiences — as well as an overview of how the financial services industry has changed over the years, and how this impacts clients. We also discuss key terms, like “fiduciary”, and how understanding their implications can help you navigate the industry, before unpacking the four factors of financial decision-making and how planning can help you live a rich and meaningful life.

Key Points From the Episode

We welcome back Justin Woods, PharmD, MBA Director Of Business Development at YFP.
Some of the reasons why pharmacists tend to be skeptical of financial advice.
How past negative experiences can prevent people from getting financial advice.
Why it can be so challenging to navigate the financial advisory market.
The concept of “fiduciary”, what the term means, and why it matters.
How the financial services industry has moved towards tailored advice.
Optimizing for a particular niche and the benefits and value that come with that.
The variety in the types of services on offer (and why it can be overwhelming).
What clients should expect from their financial advisors in terms of scope.
An overview of the four factors of financial decision-making: financial analysis, money scripts, emotions, and overall well-being.
The importance of being comfortable with raising questions with your advisor.
Establishing the ROI you expect from your financial plan.
An overview of the various fee models of financial advisors and what to be aware of.

Episode Highlights

“Most pharmacists I talk to have a difficult time really thinking about one person in their circle who works with a financial advisor.” — @justin_woods [0:05:41]

“[Fiduciary] is just a fancy term, right? But it basically means that it’s a person that you can trust with your life savings that is ethically bound to act in your best interest. So oftentimes, I compare it to taking the oath of a pharmacist that a lot of us did.” — @justin_woods [0:12:56]

“You want a particular outcome, but you may not be as concerned with how it’s done as long as you get there. And there is a lot of complicated financial jargon out there that oftentimes can scare people away or make them feel stupid.” — @justin_woods [0:27:05]

“I feel like pharmacists work so hard for this six-figure income and view it as the ultimate security in life. And what I see from pharmacists that I talk to is that the income alone doesn’t give you the freedom, flexibility, or time that a lot of people are looking for.” — @justin_woods [0:30:49]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrick here, and thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I welcome back on to the show, YFP team member Justin Woods. During the show, Justin shares takeaways from over 350 conversations that he has had with pharmacists, looking to hire a financial planner.

Some of my favorite moments from the show include hearing why pharmacists are skeptical when it comes to hiring a financial planner, the various terms and titles used in the financial services industry, why fiduciary and fee-only matter, what outcomes to expect as a part of the financial planning process, and the various ways that financial planners get paid.

Whether or not you decide to work with our team of certified financial planners at YFP Planning. Our hope is this episode will give you the insights and information of what to look for when hiring a financial planner.

If you are interested in joining more than the 280 households in 40-plus states that work with YFP Planning for one-on-one financial planning and wealth management, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether you’re just getting started, in the middle of your career, or nearing retirement, our team is ready to help. Again, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

All right, let’s hear it from today’s sponsor, Pyrls and then we’ll jump into my interview with YFP Director of Business Development, Justin Woods.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[0:01:26.6] JW: This is Justin Woods from the YFP team with a quick message before today’s show. If you’re tired of relying on shared passwords or spending hundreds of dollars for drug information, we’ve got great news for you. Today’s podcast sponsor, Pyrls, is changing the game for pharmacy professionals. Pyrls offer us top drug summaries, clinical teaching points, a drug interaction checker, calculators, and guideline reviews all in one user-friendly resource.

They also recently add free weekly quizzes to test your pharmacotherapy knowledge. Whether you’re on your web browser or accessing the mobile app, Pyrls has got you covered. Visit pyrls.com to get access to more than 25 free pharmacotherapy charge to get you started. Upgrade your drug information resources today with Pyrls, don’t miss out on this game-changing resource.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:21.8] TU: Justin, welcome back to the show.

[0:02:23.7] JW: Thanks for having me, Tim.

[0:02:24.8] TU: Excited to have you in this discussion that we have today. Also, an exciting time for you Justin, some of our listeners may know, many may not that you and Sarah, you have twins on the way, super exciting phase of life. How’s the preparation coming? I don’t know if you can be fully prepared but how are you feeling?

[0:02:42.4] JW: Yeah, we feel, I guess, mentally prepared, right? As two pharmacists, we want to plan for everything and so we’re just anticipating the arrival. My wife is 33 weeks pregnant right now. So I guess, on average, twins go to 38 weeks. So it could be any time now to be honest.

So yeah, we put the car seats in the minivan this morning, and yeah, exciting stuff around here, a very expensive season of life with daycare and whatnot but yeah, we are excited nonetheless.

[0:03:14.4] TU: You know, it’s funny, I was reflecting back. You know, I’ve talked about this, you know, as Jess and I had our four boys and you know that adjustment from one to two and then you go two to three, everyone says, “Hey, you go from man to man to zone defense.” You’re going right there, right? One to three so.

[0:03:26.6] JW: Yeah, we’re going right there, we’re going right there. So thankfully, our toddler who is two, a little bit over two, already knows that there are two babies on the way. She’s already been trying to be very helpful, so we’re hoping to bring her into the defensive scheme a little bit as well.

[0:03:42.2] TU: Yes, I love that, I love that. Well, it’s been a while since we had you on the podcast on episode 250, we talk about 10 takeaways that you had from 50 financial conversations with pharmacists, colleagues. We’ll link to that episode in the show notes and for today’s episode, we’re going to dig deeper into the now over 350 conversations that you’ve had with pharmacists and what you’ve learned, and why we struggle evaluating professional financial advice.

Why we struggle perhaps in choosing and hiring and evaluating a financial planner. Our goal being, Justin, that we can pull back the curtain on some of the secrets about financial planners so that our listeners can feel confident in who they partner with, whether that’s with us, we hope so, or whether that’s with someone else and certainly, that’s okay. We want them to be informed in that process.

So Justin, let’s start this off. One of the key takeaways that you’ve had, again in now over 350 conversations with pharmacists all across the country at all different phases of their career, which I too noticed early on in my experience building YFP is that pharmacists are skeptical when it comes to hiring a financial planner. That’s not to say a bad thing, right? Tell us more.

[0:04:54.2] JW: Yeah, it’s not a bad thing, right? But when I talk to pharmacists and I survey them to understand how they feel about financial advisory services they shared, we’re just confused about what advisors do, skeptical if they can actually trust them, right? That trust piece is huge or some folks who have actually regretted their decision to work with a particular advisor and oftentimes, when I tell people about the work our team does and the breadth and depth of the topics, the advice that we offer, they share, “Gosh, I didn’t know financial planning covers all of that” right?

And in my opinion, a major factor of that is that people often don’t talk about money with family, with friends or colleagues, and from that standpoint, it’s not talking about money, they’re probably not talking about their financial advisor either. So in most pharmacists I talk to have a difficult time really thinking about one person in their circle, right? Who works with a financial advisor.

In fact, in 2022, only 35% of Americans worked with a financial advisor, and a more interesting stat, is that a study done by AARP found that 45% of people would rather visit the dentist than make an appointment, an initial appointment to talk with a financial advisor and nothing against a dentist, right? Because my mom was actually a dental hygienist for about 35 years but people distrust financial services as an industry.

They don’t know how to choose or vet a good advisor and they don’t even know what an advisor does, right? So the other side too are folks who are in that pre-retirement phase is 74% of Americans have shared that they wish that they could get a financial planning do-over or set up a better financial situation. So there’s really that this gap between what people are afraid of, maybe because they don’t know enough about it, and what they wish they had done about in the first place too.

[0:06:46.4] TU: Yeah, that’s really – I mean, the visit to the dentist is fascinating, right? I think of you know, that process obviously. I love dentists too but not necessarily my favorite place to go and so I’m curious to pull this back a little bit further, Justin. From all these conversations you’ve had with pharmacists, why is this discomfort, this feeling, this, “Hey, I’d rather not do this at all or look at it” do you have a sense that it’s from maybe some that have had a previous experience that left a bad taste?

Is it influence of you know, maybe a parent or family or friends or others? Is it just this topic of personal finances you mentioned is one that especially if I’m maybe not exactly where I want to be that I don’t want necessarily someone, you know, making that worse or me feeling judged by where I’m at with my financial position, what’s the read you get on why the pharmacists you speak with maybe are even though they’ve taken that step, obviously, to meet with you or you wouldn’t have those conversations, still maybe not the most comfortable thing that they want to be doing?

[0:07:47.7] JW: Yeah, because there is a lot of confusion out there about what is a financial advisor and when most people think of financial advisor, they think of just the investment piece and realistically, that is only one piece. If you think about the term “financial advisor” technically, it’s just a generic term with no precise industry definition.

So this title can describe many different types of financial professionals like stock brokers, life insurance agents, tax preparers, investment managers, and financial planners. There are some estate planners and bankers who also may fall under this category as well. The only distinction is that this person has to provide guidance and advice.

If they just press a button and place trades for clients or simply prepare your tax return without providing that advice piece, they would technically not be a financial advisor and according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there are more financial advisors than pharmacists.

In fact, the job outlook for financial advisors has a growth of 15 per percent compared to 2% per pharmacist and these numbers alone show that the demand for people seeking professional advice about their situation and the number of options a pharmacist has when it comes to actually hiring a financial advisor.

So that process of vetting an adviser and find out where that best fit is that can feel overwhelming at the same time.

[0:09:15.8] TU: Yeah, I’m so glad you brought up the numerous titles that can be used. One is I often share with folks is you know, the term financial advisor or financial planner or wealth manager, whatever term you may see in and of itself isn’t really going to tell you a whole not about what this person does. We’ll talk about fees and how they charge and scope of services and all that.

Really, the ownership is on the consumer to understand you know, “What does that mean and are they qualified and are we a good fit?” we’ll talk about fiduciary and some of those responsibilities as well and I think because of that variety and because of that confusion, Justin, I suspect that that may be playing into not only the low percentages of folks that are engaging with advisor but also that feeling of like, “Uh, I’d rather just not engage.”

I do still think there’s a piece of, “Hey, maybe I had a bad previous experience that validated some of the concerns that I had” or maybe I have a family member, a parent, a relative, someone that’s saying like, “Hey, don’t work with an advisor” Because they had that experience that maybe was less than ideal, you know, themselves or as we talked about just a little while ago, I do think for some, especially if they’re in a position where they think, “Hey, maybe I should be progressing further than I have thus far.”

That you know, engaging with someone that is going to, you know, reinforce some of the opportunities of where things could be a little bit better could add on to some of those negative feelings and feelings of self-judgment that people may have as well. So lots to consider and unpack there and this reminds me, Justin, when Tim Church and I wrote the book Seven Figure Pharmacist.

We sat down to write this chapter and I kid you not, a chapter on evaluating a financial planner, understanding your financial planner, by far it was the chapter that took us the longest to write and had the most edits and revisions and it’s because of everything that we’re talking about. You know, there’s not a simple understanding of what these terms mean.

I think, more than anything, there’s some good questions that people can be asking to try to figure out more about, “What are the credentials, what does the scope of service look like, what does the fee, is this a good fit for me?” but you know, we’re used to the model of, we know what a PharmD means, right?

There are variances in educational programs but there’s a set of accreditation standards for good reasons when it moves to you know, the public understanding, what is a pharmacist, what does a registered pharmacist mean, what does a PharmD mean, there’s some level of consistency, right?

Same thing with the PGY1 accredited, PGY2 board certification and I think my experience and I suspect for many of our listeners, we adopt that mindset and we try to apply it to the financial services industry and it doesn’t work because there’s so many differences and nuances in this industry, and if we don’t do the homework and understanding a lot of what we’re talking about here today, I think that further validates that feeling of like, “Ugh, this is confusing.”

“I have this skeptical feeling, maybe this is a little bit you know, not ideal for what I’m looking for” or “Hey, I don’t mind paying a fee” is something I hear often but I just want to make sure that it’s transparent and I know that you know, this is a good investment that I’m making. So really good breakdown, Justin, of the titles and some of the concerns that are out there in the confusion of it. What about the concept, Justin, of fiduciary?

This is a common question that I get. I think we’ve made some end roads into this term becoming something that people are looking more for but there’s still a lot of confusion of like, what is a fiduciary, why does this matter and why isn’t everyone a fiduciary? It just seems like common sense.

[0:12:54.6] JW: Yeah, definitely, and it is just a fancy term, right? But it basically means that it’s a person that you can trust with your life savings that is ethically bound to act in your best interest. So oftentimes, I compare it to taking the oath of a pharmacist that a lot of us did, right? But if you partner within an investment broker, technically, they only follow a suitability standards.

So they believe that a recommendation of a transaction involving a stock or bond, right? It’s based on what the customer may disclose in connection with that recommendation. So they’re only looking at a piece of that person’s life or what that person has told them. So in most cases, those who follow suitability, they’re not required to collect as much information, data about you before they tell you what to invest your money in.

It’s kind of like a pharmacist only reviewing half of a patient’s medication list before making a recommendation, right? I actually met with a pharmacist last week who said that she asked her financial advisor if he was fiduciary and he replied with, “I always do what’s best for you” and that may be true, right?

There are a lot of good financial advisors out there but being fiduciary, right? Had taken that oath, demonstrates a level of commitment and transparency that the advisor is held to that standard at that standard at the same time.

[0:14:19.5] TU: Yeah, that’s a good call, Justin, right? Just because someone is not a fiduciary or something we’re biased toward and obviously not a fee-only advisor, meaning that you know, in a fee-only model, you are compensating the advisor for the advice that you – they are giving you, they’re not getting paid by recommendations of insurance products, your investment where they’re essentially getting a kickback.

You know so we use these terms, fee-only and fiduciary but just because someone is not fee-only or fiduciary, it doesn’t mean that they’re incompetent. It doesn’t mean that they’re a bad person. It really means that “Hey, we got to do a little bit more homework to line up.”

Well, why aren’t they a fiduciary, why aren’t they fee only and what implications may that have to me and my financial plan, and is that the best option or not in terms of engaging or working with someone in that area? So I think it is a really important concept, John Oliver, Justin, has a great segment.

[0:15:08.2] JW: He does. Yeah, I’ve watched that a few times, it’s funny.

[0:15:10.4] TU: Great segment on fiduciary and suitability if you want to learn more about this. The example I always give Justin, when I present in this topic is that if I’m going to buy a suit, right? And I got to two different suit shops, one is providing suits under a suitability standard, if we play this out, one is under a fiduciary standard.

I like a nice slim-fit suit, right? That’s appropriate for the width of my shoulders, my arms, my leg, overall physique and so if I go to the fiduciary shop and I say, “Hey, these are my measurements, they’re going to do the work and they’re going to get me a nice fitting to that is the best. It’s the best fit for me and my personal situation” that’s the comparison to the fiduciary standard of the financial plan.

If I go to the suitability standard suit shop, you know maybe they don’t take the right measurements or they don’t have to do all of that analysis. Maybe I’ll leave with a little bit of a baggy suit, right? Too long, doesn’t get tailored. It’s not terrible, maybe it is on some level. You can argue it’s appropriate but it’s not necessarily the best fit, right? Or the best option for me and that comes to play exactly in the financial plan.

Whether you’re working on, you know, retirement planning or other parts of the financial plan, you know we really want to make sure that as you are evaluating, are all parts of the plan that that fiduciary is really looking at what is the best option for you and your personal situation. So a fun example and I think, you know, to draw this to pharmacy.

Like could you imagine walking into some pharmacies, Justin, whether the pharmacist was you know, obligated to do all of these things whereas in some cases, you know and the other that they only have to do half of the DUR. It just doesn’t make sense, right? As we think about drawing lines.

[0:16:45.8] JW: Right, exactly, exactly, and Tim, to tie off your analogy a little bit, imagine if you were to go into that fiduciary suit shop and that suit shop only worked with pharmacists or people of your body type and height and I think that gets to what the financial planning industry has molded it into is this focus on niche or niche. We can debate that term too, but the financial advice industry for a long time was predominantly transaction-based, where the advisers earned a living solely from those commissions that they earn on whatever product that they sold.

So there was really no need to meet with those clients until there was an opportunity to implement a product, say like life insurance for example. So it was essentially for advisors to be as broad in their messaging and marketing as possible, right? To cast a really large net to reach anyone with a pulse who might buy that product but then in the last decade, we’ve really seen a movement to provide tailored advice and it’s a really caught on, where you developed a unique expertise for working with those clients and the problems that they face and that in turn, leads to development of services and scope and a business model that really fits a client for their need.

So for example, obviously I’m biased because I’m a pharmacist but if I was asked to recommend a treatment regimen for like Osteomyelitis in an adult, right? I could spend hours researching that topic and hopefully feel confident in my decision or I could just call a friend, who is a PGI2-trained infectious disease pharmacist who has that experience, who has that knowledge to help me feel confident in the solution for that patient specifically.

So that’s kind of where I feel the benefit or the optimization of that niche comes in. Obviously, that perspective is biased too since our financial planning team, we primarily work with pharmacists like us.

[0:18:52.5] TU: Yeah, it’s a really important point though, Justin. Someone recently was kind of challenging this concept on LinkedIn a few weeks ago and I really started to think more deeply about it. Obviously, it’s the bread and butter of what we do and the more I think about it, the more I even firmly believe in the value of the niche and this individual is really, you know, kind of arguing against like, “Why is there a need to really differentiate financial planning services for healthcare professionals?” or more specifically, in what we do with pharmacists and we see very specific examples of this on a weekly basis.

There is value in repetition here. We have a planning team of five CFPs that work with you know, return on 80 households all across the country and you know some of the things that come up over and over again like, “Hey, I’m working on a student loan forgiveness plan and I’m working with a nonprofit hospital.” “Oh, by the way, we’ve had you know, 15, 20, 30 other people that are navigating this” maybe not that same employer, although we do have some of that overlap with institutions like the VA for example.

But we’ve been down this path, we’ve crossed these T’s, dotted the I’s, we’ve seen where the bumps are along the road or even just more generally in some of the trends that we see of pharmacist in terms of income and barriers and challenges and you know, where they’re at, at certain points of net worth throughout their career. I mean, all of these things compound over time with some of the experience and I do think that there’s a lot of value that can come from the niche.

[0:20:21.4] JW: Yeah.

[0:20:23.0] TU: Variety also comes Justin, in the types of services that are offered. This is one that I think gets overlooked so often. You have these conversations way more than I but it feels like there’s this general assumption that like, “Hey, I’m looking at three financial planners” and not necessarily asking the question to understand, “What does that relationship actually look like? Who are the clients that they work with? Are they like me?”

Do they have experience in these areas? So I’m really referring here to the financial planning process and what a client can or cannot expect in terms of scope of service and there are wide variances here. Tell us more.

[0:21:02.7] JW: Yeah and I first want to start with an example that I had last week, I’ve gotten on a call with a pharmacist from Ohio, and right out of the gate, she kind of asked us about our fees and I was very transparent that if you’re only evaluating based on fees of cost, it’s going to be a raise to the bottom because our financial planning model is not the “cheapest out there” but you really have to advocate for yourself and understand, “Okay, does the scope of the service, does the process that this team or this person offer, does that fit me exactly?” and pharmacists want that structure and the financial planning process provides that too.

So it really starts with collecting all of your data and talking with clients that understand your financial situation. So through that conversation with a planner, they can map out both the short and long-term personal and financial goals. So if you look at my financial plan, it certainly has all the big things like retirement and paying off our student loans that are still there but it’s got other things too like going to Disney every year, right?

My wife and I want to do a trip to Africa for our 10-year anniversary, it’s got our beach home in there. So it is really establishing, okay, a road map of where all your goals fit in and then how do we use your income or money as a tool to reach those outcomes at the same time. So it’s kind of a traditional soap note, where the CFP professional, right? Your financial planner will look at this objective, the objective, then they’ll develop that assessment and plan to maximize the potential, the probability that you will reach those goals and achieve those outcomes.

So they often support you put the plan into motion and then monitoring some financial lab value, so to speak, to really understand that progress and making financial decisions, that can be broken down into the interplay about four factors that often aren’t talked about. So there’s the financial analysis, there’s the money scripts, there’s emotions, and there’s the overall well-being too.

And unfortunately, financial analysis has been viewed for too long as the overriding predominant factor in making a good decision but if we boil every decision down to a cost-benefit analysis without giving it the proper – consider the other factors, then we’re doing a disservice to our clients too. So without understanding the money scripts, you know we can’t really understand the client’s beliefs and values in financial decision-making.

An example of that is, you know, some of our clients have student loans and so often times that may come up in a conversation. I had one pharmacist couple who shared that their partner had been in a life-threatening accident. So that really changed their perspective on what they found meaning on in life and they really didn’t care about the student loans. They didn’t care about the math around interest.

They just want to pay the minimum amount and live their life now too. So it is all about working with somebody who understands what that process is and can really help you balance those personal and financial goals at the same time.

[0:24:17.3] TU: Yeah and Justin, the more I experience, you know, for Justin and I and our family and our financial plan, I feel like with each passing year there is a greater and greater appreciation for less about the math, more about the emotions, more about the goals, more about the behavior and I think part of this might be some overconfidence. You know, I even had that I would say early in my career of like, “I’m good with math, I can punch a bunch of numbers.”

But executing on the financial plan versus just developing one or two very, very different things and I think this is such an important part as you’re evaluating different services. You know I think that many pharmacists, myself included, we’re analytical human beings. We see service, we see price, we compare, those often are not apples to apples as you’re looking because of what we’ve been talking about here throughout the episode.

So you really have to pull back the onion of, “You know, what is the scope of service? What is the fees that are being here? What are they going to cover, what are they not going to cover?” you know? Do they typically work with individuals that are working through the challenges that I have in my financial plan? You know, if I have USD 200,000 student loan debt, you know most firms may not work with individuals that are early on their credit.

Do they even know some of the nuances on student loan repayment? So I think there’s an appreciation that’s happening that to your point, much of the history around the planning relationship is focused on the math on the analytical side I think because of the evolution of FinTech. We’re seeing some of that become more of a commodity and I think that’s going to lead to more of a value of the relationship and really looking holistically at the plan.

The things that you mentioned are what ultimately we hear from people about success and living a rich life, right? The trip to Africa, the beach home, the going to Disney every year, like if you and Sarah wake up and because you had a really good analytical math person doing the planning and you have USD 3.5 million saved but you haven’t lived a rich life, who cares, right?

[0:26:12.5] JW: Right.

[0:26:13.0] TU: So I think that as individuals are looking at option A versus B versus C, what’s the scope, what’s the price, what are the expectations, do they have my best interest in mind, how often are we going to be meeting? These are the types of things that we want to be evaluating.

[0:26:27.8] JW: Yeah, yeah. I think pharmacists, myself include the way that we are trained, the way that we think. We often get focused in on the mechanism action or the process in ensuring that the process itself will help us achieve those outcomes. When we think about it from our profession, so the general public oftentimes does not have an understanding of how the drugs that they take work nor do many of them care, right?

But they have confidence in their doctor and their pharmacist who give them advice, education, recommendations as well. I feel like it’s the same thing when you consider financial advice, right? You want a particular outcome but you may not be as concerned with how it’s done as long as you get there. And there is a lot of complicated financial jargon out there that oftentimes can scare people away or make them feel stupid too.

I was actually speaking with two pharmacists last week from Kansas and they shared how they’re trying to balance their personal and professional life, acknowledge that they are not confident about their financial literacy or what they know. So they shared, they were really looking for somebody who could educate them, help them understand their financial situation to feel more in charge, take control, and just give them peace of mind of where they might end up.

I felt like the husband brought a really good analogy there, he went on to show that as a pharmacist, he doesn’t jump into a conversation with a patient about the Pharma Co. connects of Vanco, right? But I feel like many financial, traditional financial advisors do that exact thing where they show you some fancy charts and graphs to make it just feel confusing, to justify their value over time but if you currently work with an advisor, right?

Are you comfortable telling them you don’t understand something and asking questions because I’ve heard this exact scenario from my sister in fact, where she doesn’t feel comfortable saying she doesn’t know something with her adviser. So as you said, it is a lot about that, that relationship piece.

[0:28:34.1] TU: Yeah and I think that’s a great example. You know, that couple you mentioned, you know just last week, I heard things like peace of mind, I heard making sure that we have our goals defined. I heard comfortable in terms of financial knowledge and literacy, which is interesting because I think those are some of the greatest outcomes that come from the relationship but they also aren’t necessarily the ones that we look at and say, “Hey, we can punch this in a calculator and determine the ROI” right?

[0:28:59.2] JW: Yeah.

[0:28:59.5] TU: So this is where I think you feel as a buyer, as someone who is evaluating financial planner is a common question, Justin, I’m sure you get is like, “What’s the ROI?” right? “I’m going to invest X and what am I going to get?” and I actually think the better we’re doing on the planning relationship, you talk about living the rich life with the Africa trips, the Disney trips, you know what you guys are doing as family experiences, putting a dollar amount to the joy in living a rich life, we know what that feels like.

But to answer the ROI question, that’s not an easy one and perhaps, maybe not even a good fit if that’s the focus.

[0:29:33.8] JW: Right, exactly. I actually spoke with a pharmacist recently who shared that his expectation working with a financial planner was that our team would return a hundred bucks for every dollar that he paid to work with us and I try to think about that if a patient had come to a pharmacist like that. So imagine if a patient has said, “I expect this medication to reduce my A1C by five percentage points” right?

In reality, there’s so many other factors like compliance, adherence, diet, exercise, access for building too that would be impossible to quantify the exact ROI there too. So what the pharmacist asked, “Okay, if we lower your A1C by five percentage points, what would that actually do for you?” right? I think for most patients, it would help them, one, feel a lot better, right? Less fatigue so that they can keep up with their grandkids at the playground.

Maybe more time, right? Maybe you avoid some microvascular complications that don’t derail your ability to drive across the country in an RV, right? Or maybe prevent a major heart event that allowed you to live longer too. So I feel like pharmacists work so hard for this six-figure income and view it as the ultimate security in life and what I see from pharmacists that I talk to is that the income alone doesn’t give you the freedom, flexibility, or time that a lot of people are looking for.

[0:31:05.8] TU: You can see this. You again, do a lot more of these discovery calls, talking with colleagues across the country that are looking for hiring a financial planner. You see this more than I but I recall many of these conversations where you can in real-time see and feel kind of the split-brain feeling of like, “You know emotionally, these are the things that mean, are most important to me” right?

The peace of mind, the security, making sure I’ve got a good plan, perhaps on the same page with the spouse or partner, and we know that those are very difficult to quantify but then are buyer mode goes on. It’s like, “Okay if I am going to spend X, what’s the return and why?” and so I think this is a hard thing to reconcile but it is an important one for obviously someone to feel good about moving forward.

I think for the expectations from a planning relationship, you know we always say that Justin, sometimes we can move forward with us. We don’t want them coming on board and having buyer’s remorse. That’s not a good fit for them, that is not a good fit for us. So the discovery process, the evaluation when done well and I think this is good advice whether someone’s looking to work for us or with someone else is that you want to feel good about that relationship on both sides.

So if someone is expecting a 101 ROI and you know, we kind of navigate that and we move it forward, guess what? In two or three months, we’re probably going to realize this isn’t a good fit and so I think establishing that upfront is really valuable. Fees, Justin, let’s save the best for last, right? So much variety here when it comes to fees and what someone is paying. Often we hear from folks that, “Hey, I am not paying anything.”

We’re like, “Well, not so fast” so sometimes, this is transparent, sometimes it’s not. So what have you learned in terms of the various fee models that are out there and the expectations that clients have for how they’re compensating a planner for their advice?

[0:32:48.3] JW: Yeah and this is the one question that not many people can answer, right? How do advisers get paid? I say that from experience because my first four to five years of working with an adviser, I had very little understanding of the fee structure, how much I paid, and from you know, 350 conversations with pharmacists, they have a very similar perspective as well. I believe it speaks to the industry as a whole, right?

They are not very transparent about fees, which can certainly add to that feeling of distrust and being skeptical too. So if you’re listening to this podcast, you currently work with an adviser and don’t feel you pay anything, right? That should be a red flag, to ask more questions and be an advocate for yourself to make sure it is a worthwhile investment and if you are working with a financial adviser, there is no such thing as free advice.

So financial advisers typically fall into one of three different payment models, right? There’s commission, there is commission and a fee model, typically it’s called fee-based, and then finally, fee only. So both commission and fee-based, they receive compensation based on specific financial products that they sell you. It could be insurance products, annuities, investment options too like mutual funds.

Fee-only though, those financial planners are compensated directly by their clients for advice, planned implementation, and that ongoing management of all of the assets but I feel like oftentimes people just stop there but that’s not all because if you’re not informed and educated, there are other fees that you may not consider and I learned this the hard way. So in a commission-based model, there are fees tied to the sale and ongoing management of a product too.

So it could be life insurance or disability insurance too, there are things like transaction fees, periodic charges, annual operating expenses. When you look at things like mutual funds, there are often sales charges, also known as sales loads, those are commissions you pay when you invest in a mutual fund. So there are also expense ratios too, so when a lot of folks come to me and say, “Hey, I’m paying X amount for my adviser” oftentimes those do not include those additional expenses like the sales loads, the expense ratios as well.

An example that I had, it is a pharmacist who is working with an adviser, asked that adviser, “What are your fees or how can I understand this a little bit better?” and that adviser replied with emailing them a 46-page document talking about –

[0:35:35.5] TU: I’ve seen those, I’ve seen that.

[0:35:37.0] JW: Exactly, exactly and I feel like you know, seeing a document like that is just kind of praying and hoping that your client won’t read that because I often wonder if the adviser themselves can even explain what their fees are.

[0:35:51.9] TU: Yeah, we talked about this Justin, Tim and I in episode 208 of the podcast, we broke down some of the fees on investments, why that’s so important. You talked about a handful of them. I think the transparency piece here is so important not only for understanding but also again what I shared just a few moments ago, you want to feel good about this relationship, and you know we’re not shy about charging fees.

We feel like our planning team provides a ton of value and the return on investment is much more than the fees that are paid by the client and we’re proud that those are transparent and if we get to that point through transparency and we determine, “Hey, it’s not a good fit because of X, Y, or Z” so be it, right? But the transparency is there and again, whether we’re the solution or someone is looking at hiring another adviser, I think feeling good about that decision.

Feeling good that you know and understand the fees and I think the separation piece is a really important one. So you know, if you’re in a planning relationship where we hear this all the time, “Hey, I’m not paying anything for financial planning, it’s free financial planning but I just bought a whole life insurance, I had a commission associated with it” right? So there is a natural inherent bias in the advice that is being given.

It doesn’t mean again, that they’re a bad person, it doesn’t mean that they’re incompetent but where does the incentive lie for them to be spending your time? Not on comprehensive financial planning, not on your student loans, not about setting your life goals and making sure we’re on track with living a rich life both today and tomorrow. It is about spending time where the dollars are going to be earned. And in that model, it’s selling a product.

That’s one of the things I love about the fee-only models that you’re paying the planner for the advice that they are giving and sometimes that means you are working on traditional things, like investments or retirement planning. Sometimes that means you’re getting in the weeds on student plans or budgeting or buying a home or buying an investment property or working through a difficult conversation with a spouse and getting on the same page.

Talking to mom and dad about finances, teaching your kids about it. I mean, all of these things are important parts of the financial plan but they’re not traditionally incentivized where an adviser is going to spend time on those things if they’re going to be compensated through recommending a certain product.

[0:38:04.4] JW: Exactly, exactly, yeah.

[0:38:06.6] TU: Great stuff, Justin, it’s hard to believe it’s been over 350 conversations. That’s pretty wild, right? When you come back to that.

[0:38:12.7] JW: Yeah. Yeah, I had to look at that number before we jumped on but yeah, 353 as of today.

[0:38:20.0] TU: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. So for those that are listening, if you want to learn more about the comprehensive financial planning and wealth management services that we offer through the amazing team at YFP Planning, our five CFPs, and the folks that support them as well, you can book a free discovery call with Justin. We’ll link to that in the show notes, which is the direct link to his calendar.

You can also go to yfpplanning.com and get to that as well. Again, that discovery call process, that conversation is all about understanding what are the goals, what are the things that you are facing in your financial situation right now. More than anything, Justin is going to be asking good questions, listening, sharing more about the services, and trying to identify “Is it a good fit with what we offer or is it not?”

So it truly is meant to be the discovery in nature, there is no obligation through that process, and again, yfpplanning.com or you can book directly to Justin’s calendar. We’ll link to that in the show notes.

[0:39:12.5] JW: And Tim, I would just add one more thing there if there’s time, is that you know through our conversation, we’ve really only scratched the surface on a couple of these topics. So if somebody is still feeling pretty skeptical like confused about this, I do have an on-demand webinar that I recorded with all of my learnings from these conversations, my own experience too that goes into a lot more depth about the various topics like scope and fees and whatnot.

I feel like for a lot of folks, I think there’s been 60 people who have watched that so far. It really helps them understand and feel empowered about evaluating financial advice if it works for them or not. So that’s typically a really good first step if you are still a little bit uncomfortable.

[0:39:58.1] TU: Awesome, we will link to that webinar in the show notes so folks can access that as well. Justin, thanks so much.

[0:40:04.3] JW: Thanks, Tim.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:40:05.6] JW: Hey, this is Justin again from the YFP team. Thanks for tuning in to today’s podcast. If you’re a pharmacy professional, you know how crucial it is to have access to reliable drug information. That’s why we’re excited to tell you about Pyrls, today’s podcast sponsor. Gone are the days spending hundreds of dollars for access to drug information, Pyrls offer top drug summaries, clinical teaching points, a drug interaction check or calculators, and guideline reviews all in a user-friendly resource.

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[DISCLAIMER]

[0:40:58.7] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information on the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post, and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 311: Raising Money-Savvy Kids

Posted on June 8, 2023October 5, 2023 by Tim U

Julia Myers, PharmD discusses strategies for teaching kids about money, all the way from elementary age through young adults. This episode is sponsored by First Horizon.

About Today’s Guest

Julia Myers is a practicing pharmacist and pharmacy leader at the University of Missouri Health Care in Columbia, Missouri. Julia received her Doctor of Pharmacy degree from the University of Wyoming School of Pharmacy and her Masters in Business Administration from the University of Tennessee- Knoxville. Her 15-year career encompassed clinical and leadership roles in community pharmacy, ambulatory care, health system, and specialty pharmacy. In 2020, Julia was recognized as a member of the Class of 20 Under 40 by Columbia Magazine for her achievements in medication affordability, specialty pharmacy, and overall community impact. After experiencing a life-changing medical event, Julia semi-retired in May 2022 and is now pursuing her best life focusing on family, lifelong learning, and travel. Julia enjoys spending time outdoors, reading and writing, and raising 5 children with her husband Brad. Follow her on social @Juliamyersrx

Episode Summary

Less than half of parents feel confident in what they are teaching their children about money. Even fewer regularly discuss money with their kids. Julia Myers is a practicing pharmacist and pharmacy leader at the University of Missouri Healthcare. During this episode, sponsored by First Horizon, we discuss how the type of money household you grew up in influences your financial management today. We explore strategies to teach your children about money across the full spectrum of ages, from early childhood to young adulthood. Julia weighs in on the loss of generational wealth, why mistakes are the best teachers, and how self-reflection can lead you to better equip your children to build their financial futures. Throughout the show, Julia offers practical tips on approaching money conversations with your family and empowering your children.

Key Points From the Episode

An introduction to Julia Myers, practicing pharmacist and pharmacy leader.
The Pharmacist Home Loan offered by First Horizon Bank.
How Julia’s career journey in pharmacy has led to her current role.
Where her interest in the topic of kids and money began.
Julia summarizes her vision to help families build a legacy of generational wisdom.
Julia’s perspective on what is taught in the classroom and how parents need to take it further.
Why it is important not to project your feelings about financial habits onto your children.
The loss of generational wealth today.
Why we often learn the most from mistakes,
The importance of self-reflecting on the money scripts you were raised with.
Applying different strategies to different age groups.
Resetting ‘I deserve’ to ‘I am responsible for’.
Explaining money to your elementary school-aged child.
Discerning between ‘need’ and ‘want’.
Introducing delayed gratification to pre-teens.
Bringing the financial conversation into dating and marriage with your adult children.
Where to find Julia’s 5 Family Financial Conversation Starters online.

Episode Highlights

“I inspire and empower families to expand their legacy beyond generational wealth to generational wisdom.” — @juliamyersrx [0:06:36]

“‘Someday’ always happens. How are you preparing and being intentional for that someday?” — @juliamyersrx [0:14:29]

“They’ll say, ‘Well, what’s money for?’ and I say, ‘Saving, spending, and sharing or giving.’” — @juliamyersrx [0:28:48]

“Generational wealth without wisdom is playing the lottery. It’s leaving your legacy to a lottery rather than being intentional and passing it on.” — @juliamyersrx [0:34:04]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week I welcome Julia Myers onto the show to talk about a topic near and dear to both of us, kids and money. Julia’s a practicing pharmacist and pharmacy leader at University of Missouri Healthcare. After experiencing a life-changing medical event, Julia semi-retired in May of 2022 and is now pursuing her best life focusing on family, lifelong learning, and travel.

During the show, Julia and I talk through how an understanding and awards of the type of money household that you grew up in plays an important role in the money script you are passing down to the next generation. Furthermore, we discuss strategies to employ teaching kids about money, ranging from elementary age to young adults.

If you are looking for one-on-one financial planning, look further than the team at YFP Planning. Whether you’re just getting started in the middle of your career or nearing retirement, our team of certified financial planners and tax professionals are ready to help.

You can learn more about our financial planning wealth management and tax services by visiting yourfinancialpharmacist.com. All right, let’s hear from today’s sponsor, First Horizon, and then we’ll jump into my interview with Julia Myers.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[0:01:17.2] TU: Does saving 20% for a downpayment on a home feel like an uphill battle? It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high student loan debt, meaning that saving 20% for a downpayment on a home may take years. We’ve been on a hunt for a solution for pharmacists that are ready to purchase a home loan with a lower downpayment and are happy to have found that option with First Horizon.

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To check out the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, and to start the pre-approval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:29.7] TU: Julia, welcome to the show.

[0:02:31.4] JM: Hey, thanks so much for having me. It’s such a pleasure.

[0:02:34.7] TU: I’m very much looking forward to this conversation. You and I had a chance to connect a couple of months back after I learned about your passion for personal finance. It was really a great conversation, where two personal finance nerds were in their element, not only talking personal finance but also shared interest in kids and money, which is our topic here for today’s episode.

Julia, before we jump into today’s topic, kids and money. Tell us more about your career journey in pharmacy starting with what led you into the profession and the work that you did after graduating from the University of Wyoming.

[0:03:06.4] JM: Yay Tim, and thanks so much for having me, excited to share my story today. I got into pharmacy the way most students do, they wanted to help people. I spent a summer in the mini med school program while in high school and realized I very quickly did not want to see another dead body again.

So I headed out to the University of Wyoming, I was a student-athlete for my first year on the swimming and diving team. So, fun fact about me, and then I jumped right from the pool into the library and worked for four years at the University of Wyoming, I got my PharmD and I came out of school with a really clear passion of I want to make money and I don’t want to waste time doing the residency.

So I told my professors and my mentors and preceptors, I want to get out, do clinical work, and make retail money and everybody looked at me and said, “I don’t think that’s possible” and I did it. So I moved to Phoenix and worked for a chain pharmacy there and then very quickly got in the world of HIV and was a clinical pharmacist one day a week in an infectious disease internal medicine primary care clinic, spent seven years in Phoenix and wanted more.

I kind of wanted to stretch my wings and grow in a leadership capacity because what I did in my clinical role was explain to my chain why what I was doing with adding value to what they were doing and I figured, “If I can do that for one chain, why not do that for more?” I moved to Columbia Missouri where I’ve been for the last 12 years at the University of Missouri Healthcare.

I started off as a retail pharmacy manager, managing our hospital-owned pharmacies for our health system and then I started our specialty pharmacy program, some ambulatory pharmacy programs called patient medication liaison technician career ladders, and then most recently, was sort of able to semi-retire and about two years ago, I moved into a part-time kind of consulting role and got really passionate about getting clear on my family values and my vision and that led us to what we get to talk about today.

[0:05:05.6] TU: I love it. I love it. Now we share two, I was a competitive swimmer growing up, so we have another shared connection right there as well. So were you a swimmer or a diver? What was the –

[0:05:13.8] JM: I was a diver. Springboard and platform. I never competed 10-meter but I trained 10-meter. We did Christmas training at ASU in 10P and that’s what made me fall in love with warm weather in the winter because we were swimming outside in December.

[0:05:27.1] TU: So where does your passion and interest in personal finance, where does that stem from and more specifically, the interest you have around this topic, which is kids and money?

[0:05:36.6] JM: I think the passion came from working hard translating into money. That’s the value I grew up with, one of four siblings in my family and we had enough but there were always people around me that had less and always people that had more and I was just fascinated by this concept, and as a mom myself, we’re a blended family of five kids, we range in currently, ages from first grade to a freshman in college and all the grades in between.

And what I found is the things that I learned growing up had a similar look and feel to what I was teaching my kids and then at the same time, there’s a lot of gaps and a lot of opportunity, not a lot of information on you know, when and how and what are some of the more tactical ways that we can engage children in conversations so that they can raise themselves up and move out of the house eventually.

It shouldn’t be a surprise that kids when they grow up that they move out and that is what I’m so passionate about. So to kind of summarize, I inspire and empower families to expand their legacy beyond generational wealth to more generational wisdom.

[0:06:44.8] TU: I love that. I love that vision and the clarity around that vision and you know, it’s going to be fascinating to hear your experiences, first grade to freshman in college. We’ll talk more towards the latter half of this episode about strategies, you know, activities, ideas, conversations we want to have based on you know, age groups and where people are at in the journey, so you’re living it, right?

The spectrum is there and my eldest is turning 12 years soon so you’re going to be able to share some wisdom with me as well, which I’m really looking forward to.

What does the data tell us, Julia? You know, I have a sense in my conversations that this topic is becoming more comfortable. It still feels like it’s somewhat of a taboo topic, although generationally, that feels like it’s shifting but conversations in the household around money.

You know, I often share with people, probably for many, it’s what’s unsaid, sometimes what’s said but what’s unsaid that we often, you know, carry some of those behaviors, some of the stress, the anxiety or perhaps some of the positive behaviors as well but what does the data tell us in terms of how often these conversations are happening in the household as we engage with our kids around money?

[0:07:51.9] JM: Yes, that’s probably the second most important question to ask. The first one is, “Have you had the talk with your kids at home?” and then the other one would be, “Have you had the talk about money with your kids at home?” So about 42% of parents feel confident that their kids are going to be able to manage their finances successfully.

So less than half of parents, just in general, across the board. 24%, about a quarter of parents regularly talk to their kids about money, so that’s really interesting. If you ask young adults, so 18 to 29-year-old young adults, only 39% really feel confident in their ability to manage their finances, and the most staggering of all is going to be 70% of wealthy parents worry their children will become entitled as a result of their inheritance.

So, so many pharmacists and pharmacist couples, dual-income couples, financially free, they retired early, they’ve reached independence and they are worried that their kids are not going to know what to do or even worse, become entitled because of that inheritance.

[0:08:57.1] TU: And you see the seesaw effect. I think you’re speaking to some of it in a literature, where you know, you often may see this in terms of someone who is you know, first generation you know, college or you know obviously, had to work very hard for what they have and then we get to a point of financial independence, they’re building wealth, and they’re worried about that shifting back to the next generation.

So you can see some of these patterns go back and forth. I’m curious to hear your thoughts. There are states, we see an expansion across the country, it’s happening with more states requiring personal finance education in K through 12 but from your experiences, you know, how much of this do you think is valuable foundation from a classroom experience versus you’re just at home?

You’re living life, you’re having dinner conversations, you’re at the grocery store, you’re working through the budgets. Again, you know sometimes I even notice my kids are picking up on Jess and I, my wife having conversations that they weren’t even intended to be a part of but I can tell they’re picking up things and it feels like that learning environment is really where the richness is happening of this topic coming to life.

But perhaps there’s also value in some of the foundational education that we’re seeing, you know hopefully, more in the higher education level as well but also in the K through 12. What are your thoughts there?

[0:10:11.7] JM: Yeah, I agree, it’s an all of the above model. So you can learn and different children learn in different ways. I have a saver at home and you probably have one somewhere in your bunch as well, where everything that they can get their hands on about learning how to save money and save money, and so that topic comes very naturally for us to talk about.

However, I have another one that is a very creative brain, can’t keep $100 in his pocket past Christmas morning. Yet, they receive that same kind of foundation in their academic journey or didactic kind of classroom journey. I love what you said about sharing and kind of pulling them into those conversations.

I will also say that there’s financial literacy and then there’s common sense and as parents, there’s not a textbook that tells us how to do this. We’re all writing this individually, just like our financial plan, your family dynamic is not something that you can find, and check out a library and check all the boxes.

So as you approach these topics and areas, sometimes parents can be the best storytellers, what did you do growing up or how are you raised or what were some of the maybe dumb decisions you did with money and how do you share those in a way that is more memorable and meaningful to your kids. So I think it’s both.

[0:11:29.6] TU: It’s interesting, you just talk about a saver and a spender and perhaps you’ve got others that are in between that or more balanced. You know, I see the same in my boys. My oldest, classic saver, my second born, much more creative, you know, if there’s a need in the moment, you know, I’m going to spend the money.

But what’s interesting is, I find myself projecting my tendency, my feelings around what’s good or bad onto them and I’m trying to be very careful of that and I think that’s one of the things I want to talk about here for a moment is that as a financial personal finance nerd, as someone who is focused on you know, saving for the future as we often say on this podcast, we really believe a good financial plan balances living a rich life today and saving for the future. Both have value.

And I tend to put too much weight into the future at the expense of today, and I think that being careful of both the projection but also attaching the positive or the negative emotion, you know, to the behavior. So you know, I could very easily affirm in my oldest, “You’re doing a great job saving” right? Because that resonates with me.

But I think there’s a period where he’s really going to have to learn, you know, that it’s okay to invest in experiences and make sure that we’re present and how we’re spending money today and perhaps with my, you know, second born that – or he’s enjoying more the moment and the present that we can work on also focusing on saving for the future.

So I’d just be curious to hear your reflection on thoughts of what you’ve experienced both projecting your personal finance scripts behaviors on your kids and how you can help balance some of that conversation.

[0:13:00.7] JM: Great points and I couldn’t agree more. I think when you attach emotions to money, it’s kind of like as a parent, you want to talk about eating healthy or managing your time well but you don’t want to obsess over it, you don’t want to make that all that you talk about at all and so I like to think of money as just a currency, something that you exchange for something that you want.

Whether it’s food or whether it’s time, to me, those really stand out as important to balance. Knowing that how you were raised, everybody has kind of things that they came up with or you know, they remember the one time you went out to eat growing up because it was your birthday and all the rest, you did home-cooked meals and there will be times that as families, you make decisions and choices and you might share with them why you’re doing that.

Why you drive a used car instead of a new car or whatever it is that’s important to your financial plan, pulling the kids into those conversations but then also sharing with them more under the hood of why to me is really important because children today, if you’re listening to the podcast, they’re very likely to be growing up in a different socioeconomic class than how the parents were, than how you and I were raised and I see that creep up everywhere.

I see that as that “E” entitlement word but then I counter it with money is not a four-letter word either. Money doesn’t solve all of these problems and when you put this like a prize, dangled it, you know, someday, always happens. How are you preparing and being intentional for that someday? As parents, kids are going to grow up, we blink and they’re in grade school and we blink and they’re graduating and we blink and they’re moving out of the house, hopefully.

And so at the same time, that someday is going to come and you only have so many days, weeks, months, with them to impart all of this knowledge. So figuring out what’s important to you at home, how do you share those stories and share them well and it takes a little bit all the time.

[0:15:02.4] TU: That’s beautiful, I love the wisdom there. Julie, when we talked to – a few months back, you mentioned a concept that I thought about often since that conversation, which was around the loss of generational wealth. Tell us more about what you see there or what the data shows in terms of the transfer of that wealth and how it may be lost.

[0:15:21.7] JM: Absolutely. Some people call what you’re talking about, that transfer is the short sleeves to the shirt sleeves generation. So basically, folks that are able to become financially independent, retire early, fire movements, they are generating a lot of wealth, and 70% of the time when it gets passed down to that first generation, it will be spent or consumed or divided up in a way that is not materially passing down to the next generation. 70%.

[0:15:52.6] TU: That’s wild.

[0:15:53.7] JM: Taking a generation further, so you and I will have grandchildren maybe someday or grandnieces and nephews, 90% of our wealth that will be passing down will not be material for that grandchildren generation. So you see this in the movies, you see this in Hollywood, right? Wealth is lost because of the shift in generation and there’s a couple of things that really play into that, which is just fascinating and it all comes down to just three really basic things.

Lack of financial literacy. If your kids are growing up without having to worry about where their food comes from and their basic needs, they may or may not be as literate in being an adult. I call it life lessons in adulting, that’s my job as a parent. I think also another thing that plays into that is lack of clear financial goals and expectations. As a parent, what are you expecting your child to do? Do you expect them to never have to work again?

So that short sleeves that you’ve created that they grew up in, might mean that they’ve got to go back to work mid-life or after they graduate. They don’t have just a very expensive piece of paper that’s their diploma, they actually have to use it and then the third and final one I think we as parents but also society, the world we live in today, especially, you know, in the US economy would be that sense of entitlement or that sense of complacency.

That inheritance is going to take care of everything or on the flip side, the government is going to take care of everything, or student loans will all be forgiven and it will all be fine. So those real three things are a big part of how generational wealth is just kind of lost and that’s where I really focus on generational wisdom, in addition to or expanding upon generational wealth.

[0:17:38.2] TU: I love that, right? Because the generational wisdom can transform, lead into generational wealth but sustainable generational wealth, which is really exciting and I think we do have some very unique circumstances right now that make sense that if there’s not some of the lessons learned or the experiences, some of the hard knocks, right? If you will of getting punched in the face and kind of figuring out what you need to do differently.

I always share that in my journey paying off way too much student loan debt and making some you know, very significant but obvious mistakes as I now look back on, “Yeah, well of course, I could have done that differently” those are all valuable lessons at a very early stage of my career that there were some costs to them but if you look at that, in terms of the lessons learned and how you’re able to grow from that over the next 30 to 40 years, there’s some gratitude to those mistakes as well and some of the learning that it can happen in that also.

[0:18:31.4] JM: Absolutely. As parents, sometimes we want to protect the kids and we want to block and tackle from life and then we, when we reflect upon our own experiences, that’s often where we learned the most, was when it was hard and navigating with your kids where our safe places to make mistakes versus where those will follow you for a very long time or be much more detrimental or impactful.

[0:18:53.3] TU: And we’ll talk about strategies here in a bit but I think that’s the mindset I often try to carry is, you know, even as they potentially make some mistakes and learn and you know, maybe there’s some emotion or tears that come from those mistakes, it’s within a very safe sandbox that they’re playing right now and so this is the place, this is the time, you know, to stretch their wings a little bit and let them learn from those mistakes along the way.

Julia, I think we would both agree that it’s important to do some self-reflection on our own experiences with money, the money scripts that we grew up with, the stories that we tell ourselves related to money before we even think about how we’re going to execute and teaching our kids. So tell us more, not only in your own personal experiences but what you’ve read and worked with others, why is understanding these money scripts, what we carry around, the stories we carry with us is so important as we think about teaching our kids about money?

[0:19:45.3] JM: I think it starts with, “Are you a saver or a spender?” Like just knowing that that inherent side of you means there’s somebody else on the other side of the table or the other side of the aisle. Maybe it’s your partner that you’re just kind of at odds with and you’re trying to understand, “Well, from my perspective, it’s this and from their perspective, it’s that.”

For me, I think it’s growing up with what’s the value of money and in an age where I grew up, it was a lot of you work hard for money and you put in your hours and you clock in and you clock out, and then at the end of 60 years, you can retire and so I carry that with me and I find that when I start telling those stories, the average time of employment for someone who is in their 20s is less than a year, right?

And so as we’re hiring pharmacy technicians or as I’m talking to my kids about their first job, you know, the longevity piece is just so very different, and so I think reflecting upon your own stories, maybe you grew up in a scarcity mindset or an abundance mindset or maybe you grew up with Dave Ramsey or you grew up with Robert Kiyosaki, both very different approaches to debt but asking yourself those questions, “Do I think debt is bad?”

“You know, do I think being rich is good?” and then asking your kids those questions that you get very, very different answers. The types of charities that I’m interested in are so very different than my kids and it’s based on maybe some o those stories you told yourself or what you were exposed to growing up and always remembering that the stories our children are telling to your grandchildren and then well after you’re gone, are going to not include you.

So what are you doing today to make sure that they’re either seeing or being part of some of the things that you’re passionate about and then realizing that their freedom and their flexibility is, they’re going to do whatever they want anyway and so you could just hope and pray that they are making the wise choices rather than just the easy choices and our job as parents is navigating those experiences.

[0:21:51.6] TU: Yeah, and I think this validates to me what you’re saying, you know, obviously if you’re talking about kids and money certainly but also even in our own financial plan, whether you’re DIYing it, working with a financial coach, working with a financial planner, it’s so important to peel back the layers here and understand the why behind so many of the decisions that we make or don’t make, right?

You ask some great questions, how do I feel about debt? Does debt have a good connotation, does it have a bad? And you gave the spectrum, right? Dave Ramsey to Robert Kiyosaki, leverage to no debt and what I often share with folks is we have to understand and be honest with ourselves about how we feel without judgment to it before we can enact a plan that’s going to take that into consideration.

Take your future goals into consideration, establish what your risk tolerance is, and maybe there’s some movement on that over time but you know I think often, we carry a lot of judgment around those terms, right? Debt and leverage and how do we feel about that and you know so often, that we’ll go back to the stories that we’ve told ourselves, the experiences that we’ve had along the way.

I would love, Julia, if we could spend the remainder of our time breaking down and picking your brain on how we might begin to approach or think about approaching this discussion of kids and money in different age groups and I’m going to be eagerly awaiting to hear what you have to say about the elementary age and pre-teens because that’s where my boys are at but also that we could talk for a bit about teens and young adults.

I think I love that you consider this as a journey from elementary to young adults and certainly, there’s a lot of work to be done along the way. So let’s just go through this one by one and thoughts you have on you know, within each age group, what are some areas that we might want to focus on. Are there specific types of activities or teaching strategies that we might employ? So let’s begin with elementary age.

[0:23:41.3] JM: Absolutely. So I think you start about mindset shifting, right? So you talk about, “Okay, this is the lesson you need to learn, and here’s the competency that I’m going to use to asses can you perform this task or this skill?” I think there’s an art and a science to it.

So as we got through these different ages, just like what the financial plan age isn’t everything, money isn’t everything and so it’s going to have a different experience. Each family is going to have a different experience. If you’ve never had the talk with money, that talk with your kids. Don’t feel overwhelmed. I want you to feel encouraged and inspired and empowered to pick one or two of these.

Please don’t try all of these, day one, you’ll get, you know, eye rolls and, “Mom, this is a fad and this is going to go away” or that’s not how we do it but what’s different. So lean in and start with that mindset shift of, “I deserve” is often something you’ll hear your kids say. All the ages say it, “I deserve.” We as adults say it, right?

I went to college and I have a PharmD, “I deserve…” Let’s reset that as we go through these, into, “I am responsible for.” What am I responsible for? That kind of gives you some accountability along with that and then when talking with kids and you might have had this question like, “What do you want to do when you grow up? What do you want to do?” And tying everything about what you do as what generates money or what you do as your value in society.

Let’s shift that. Who do you want to be? I’ll say that again not “What do you want to do but who do you want to be?” and if we can approach some of these life lessons with that in the background, the tactical pieces I think come a lot easier. Meal times are my favorite, everybody’s all together, we’re a big family, we have five kids and sometimes you will get the most random of conversations, and other times you’ll get different perspectives.

So I would encourage everyone if you have a regular meal time, maybe you had it a lot during COVID, we’ve kept it since COVID like that’s our protected family time but find a time that kind of works for you but meal time are great to cover some of these topics and especially in elementary. We’ll jump in there first, explaining money like what is money and why do I need it, like why is it so important, right?

How do you really break it down that it’s just a reality of life and it’s important to understand in the way that you learn all these other things about science and math and reading like money is inherently in there. If you study social studies like lots of governments have problems with money, lots of people have problems with money. Why are they fighting over this, can’t they just share? That’s a really great question.

Understanding where money comes from, as our generation I say it usually just was money comes from hard work and that’s an easy answer. As we get into the digital age and as we get into passive income and some of these more advanced topics, I think I am starting to shift my vocabulary a little bit. It is not just hard work but smart work, so how are you working smarter and not harder, which sometimes will come back to bite you when they’re doing their homework and they’re like, “I just worked smarter and not harder.”

So making sure that if even in the elementary age you are paying for chores or you are paying some sort of an allowance, that’s a hot topic, that you are paying for the behaviors you want or you’re incentivizing the performance that and the effort. So it might not be that they clean the windows perfectly but if they worked really hard on it, you want to reward and encourage that just as much as straight As on a report card.

If it was super easy, that might be a different level that each kid and each situation is going to be different.

[0:27:21.4] TU: I have found, Julia, with my boys, high energy, I have found that engaging them and teaching them through engagement is where I find the most value. So there certainly are, you know, we’ve got a regular dinner time at home and as you highlighted well like topics of conversation are very fascinating at the dinner table and what directions we may go and so that occasion will come up and often it will be you know, my son or one of them over here as my wife and I talk and ask a question and bringing them into that conversation.

We’re out at the store and they are asking questions or you know, I’ll never forget my oldest, whose soon to be 12 when he was four or five, we were at the grocery store and he looks at me and he says, “So dad you used that card and then you get what you need” and I was like, “Oh” like lots to talk about here, right? Of credit and debit and how money gets on a card and you know when I grew up I remember vividly my mom paycheck to the bank, cash went into envelopes, we spent from the envelopes.

You could see the direct connection from work to the paycheck to the money to the spending and with all the advances and positives that have come from obviously the technology and what that affords us, you know that could be harder to grasp onto at a very young age like in elementary age.

[0:28:39.0] JM: And I think the envelopes is a great way to do it, especially at the elementary age and I say that money has you know, three purposes because they’ll say, “Well, what’s money for?” and I say, “Saving, spending, and sharing or giving.” Some people use sharing, some people use giving and then I will invite them into that conversation to say, “Here is an example of here’s how we’re spending our money today” or “Here is how I’m saving my money” or Here is how I’m giving or sharing.”

Having those conversations with them about, “Well, where would you like to share your money, where would you like to give some of your money?” or okay, each had a birthday, “What’s an amount that you’d like to save?” “I don’t want to save any of it” “Well, we’re going to talk about you know, how in that envelope you’ve got to have something, and before your birthday, you said that you wanted to have half of it in your savings envelope.”

So it is less about the amount, it is less about compound interest at this age. It’s more about can they see those dollars and can they see them adding up overtime and going to the bank is fascinating. How many kids have actually ever been into a bank, turned in the coins and they count it for them and then they give them a piece of paper and like, “It’s worth this much.” You know, my saver was concerned that he had to turn in all those coins.

He’s like, “Why? I want them back, I just want to know how much is in there” and then like, “No honey” “They went into a machine and they’re not coming back.”

[0:30:04.6] TU: Yes and explaining some of that banking, I had a very similar situation with one of my boys where I think they got cash, maybe it was a check for their birthday and we put it into an online savings account and the view was, “It’s gone, I just gave my money, what the heck?” like it’s gone and you know then you get into all types of conversations about banking and interest and all that when the time is right but it can be very confusing. What about pre-teens and teens? What are your thoughts there?

[0:30:29.3] JM: I think pre-teens and teens, understanding that money is not just for saving, spending, and giving but stepping it up a notch of it’s to provide for your needs and your wants and discerning the difference between what do you need and what do you want and I say a lot if they jumped on this podcast would say the same thing is, “Mom and dad will always provide our needs but we’ve got to figure out how we’re going to work for our wants.”

So we’ll always provide for your needs but we’re going to work together to figure out how to provide for the wants and so I think that those responsibilities and accountability are learned behaviors. If they’ve never had to count back change or they’ve never had to shop from a budget before, now is the time to start pulling in maybe some of that vocabulary, back-to-school shopping depending on if you’ve got boys or girls, there’s different shopping expectations already in the pre-teens.

Annual subscriptions or they think that Netflix and all of the streaming things are just – they just come with the TV, right? So every time you have these little opportunities, you get a new piece of technology and you’ve got to upload it or buying in the app store and currency like they want Roblox dollars, right? They want to figure out how to do this, so often it’s getting under the hood even further to explain like why something was purchased and just as importantly, why didn’t we purchase it and then have them kind of identify, “How do you think that aligns with our family values?”

How do you think that aligns with what we’re doing? Especially in the pre-teens these are some of my favorite situations and tell me if these resonate with you at all is, “Buy this, you can afford it, right?” and so maybe an alternative would be, “We want to spend it differently.” So they see the neighborhood you live in, they see maybe not the background you came from but what they are experiencing today.

The schools they go to, the friends they have, the sports or the activities they’re doing, the extracurriculars, all the blessings that are around them like doesn’t mean that we’re going to continue to fill all of your wants. We as a family are going to spend it differently, “But Mom, I need it. I need it.” “Well, is this a need or is this a want?” having some of those conversations. “I really want this like I really want this.”

“Okay, well, what are you willing to do to earn it?” maybe it’s through good behaviors, maybe it’s through money, figuring out what that currency is, maybe it’s screen time. You know, figuring out what that currency is so that they can identify making wise choices with the results and the outcome that they want and sometimes that’s delayed gratification. Sometimes we make them wait until payday on Friday after they did their chores.

Probably don’t do that at elementary but pre-teens probably could start thinking about a little bit of delayed gratification and then one of my favorites is on the flip side, it’s not just on the spending side but the saving side when they see how much something is. “Well, I could never save that much.” “Okay. Well, how long do you have to save?” So when something starts to get more zeros behind it, especially in your pre-teens.

If you shop for them for Christmas or birthdays like the zeros get bigger and so I will often ask, “How long do you have to save, and what are we going to do to match funds or what are we going to do to think outside of the box?” So my favorite has to be this funny story about, “Okay. Well, we’re saving. Can I just buy a whole bunch of lottery tickets and that will be my investment?”

So we had the conversation about how lottery tickets are not retirement, lottery tickets are not an investment, and that just you know, and we explained how it works and how can you just win a lot of money and what does that mean and so sometimes, I tie back just generational wealth without the wisdom is playing the lottery. It’s leaving your legacy to a lottery rather than being intentional and passing it on.

Pre-teens to me probably should get a bank account. There are many rules around minor bank accounts in different ways to do it, tons of information out there. I am not the expert, I don’t have referral or affiliate links, find something that works for you. Some people have investment accounts, some people let them see it but pre-teens if they are part of the process, they’ll see it’s not easy to just have a bank account.

So even if it’s the exercise of creating a new one, now is a good time. I do think before you get into anything digital like a debit card or credit card even, probably not a pre-teen credit card, physical money. Spending USD 20, giving them a budget and I often let them keep the change, so I let them start to be a little more price-conscious of, “Okay, we’ve got USD 20 to feed three people. Who gets a soda and who doesn’t?”

They will be like, “Ooh, I don’t want a soda, I want an ice cream.” “Well, it spends differently when you got to keep the change” versus “If mom is just going to pay for it and you can have whatever you want.” So I think yeah, pre-teens is really where the rubber hits the road and you start to get the varying personalities that show up, just meet them where they are. There is not a right or wrong, money lessons come sooner than later for some and later for others.

[0:35:29.8] TU: Yeah and what I’ve observed and you have the experience with teens and young adults that I haven’t got to yet is you know, I can see with my oldest who will 12 here this summer like really in the last year, year and a half, the questions are coming forward, the light bulbs are going off, the signs are there, wanting more independence or responsibility and kind of leaning into that and stepping into that.

But I can already tell, his three little brothers are perhaps going to get there a little bit faster because guess what? He’s paving the road, you know we’re working through that with him and you know the other three are naturally involved in those conversations that are asking questions and I think that just speaks to the difference between them, meeting them where they are, and you know really engaging in the conversations along the way the best that you can.

One of the things I’ve heard others do with teens especially later teens or maybe in that gap before they start earning their income if they are working a job is to start shifting some of the dollars that maybe you know you’re going to spend back-to-school clothes if you have a budget for your kids or it could be for certain more the discretionary types of expenses that you know are going to be accounted for in your budget.

But to start to shift those dollars and the responsibility of those spending of those dollars to them for management, for learning, for getting to some of the realizations that you’re talking about here of how far might the dollar go, is it a soda, is it ice cream, some of these decisions and I really like that stepping stone and obviously once you start earning and come, I think that comes to light even a little bit more.

But if I know I am going to spend USD 100 for my 14-year-old on back-to-school clothes, can I give them to him to manage that and kind of work through that as well? What are your thoughts on that?

[0:37:14.7] JM: I love that idea and we’ve actually grown into that. So it started with athletic shoes because you know at some point the ones that you buy for them on sale or clearance just don’t cut it and you know we’re very privileged and blessed to have that problem and so I would give them a dollar amount for their shoes. Anything more than that had to come out of their budget.

I am providing for your needs, you have to queue us if you will, to the want and then that has evolved into the bigger things like prom. You know, you’re going to have to pick between are you doing your hair or your nails and new shoes or eating out. We’re going to give you a set dollar amount and then this year when prom came around, it was, “What about inflation?” because I just reset with the same amount from last year and –

[0:38:00.3] TU: Well, if they’re asking about inflation that’s a good sign so.

[0:38:03.8] JM: I thought that was very entertaining or to the other one that did not go to prom, he’s like, “Do I just get to keep it if I don’t go?” “You bet, that’s for you if that’s what you want to focus on and do instead and do a different social activity.” It is interesting the way that money spends when it has ownership that’s belonging to the kid and that ownership I think is really important.

At this age, especially in teens maybe they’re too busy with extracurricular or they’re too busy with their academics to have a job or a part-time job. I think there’s a balance here and are you working because it’s you need to provide food on our table for us at home? Probably not, maybe it is, and that’s okay, but for us, we actually encourage them to volunteer in something they were passionate about.

It’s a safer place to fall if they no-call no-show. It’s a safer place to interview. It’s less competitive, especially where maybe there is some social apprehension or during COVID there was not a lot of face-to-face interaction. So where these common sense skills and we would actually pay them for their volunteer hours, whether it’s through church or whether it’s through the community organization or the senior center and really encouraging them to take a risk of something they’re interested in outside of our family bubble.

For us, that worked, that might not work for all families, but the value of hard work to me says you can also see that in volunteering, less about earning a paycheck per se.

[0:39:36.9] TU: So knowing you have a freshman in college, let’s talk about the young adult phase, right? Our work isn’t done when they’re a graduate from high school, and I think maybe these are exciting but also tricky conversations, increased level of autonomy and independence, you know, maybe less direct control and observation of decisions that are being made. What advice would you have for folks here as it relates to parenting young adults when it comes to money?

[0:40:02.8] JM: Something does not magically happen when they turn 18 from a cognition standpoint; however, in the letter of the law, they are now fully-functioning voting adults and they will tell you all about that as well. So funny story, a week after my now 19-year-old turned 18 and I share this story with permission, she came home and said, “Hey, I was at the dentist and I signed this thing, I am getting Invisalign,” and I saw the bill, and I saw the paper and the copy.

I said, “Why did you sign this?” she goes, “Well, they said that I should.” Okay, so when it comes to common sense and in all households, there will be those things that you come home and you’re just like, “As long as we can recover from this, I think this is going to be okay.” So it turned out there was a conversation and that she was part of that customer service call that just said, “Oh, that was an estimate, not a real one.”

“We would never have them just sign away and not be able to pay for it,” but I thought that was really interesting that something magical happens and that we, as parents, if you’ve got a senior now, you probably have four or five weeks left of lessons with them, weekend dinners or weekend events. If you’ve got a middle schooler, you might have a few hundred weeks left, that’s it, and so very quickly, you realize you ran out of time before you ran out of things to teach them.

So get the big things right as it relates to what is a value or piece of your family. What are the big things? Are they signing for student loans solo or not? Are you cosigning a credit card for them or are they getting it themselves? Are you walking them through safe ways to navigate borrowing money for whatever it is that they want? Are you making them save up cash for a car or not?

Used cars are expensive these days, and the conversation I had was, “I can’t come up with USD 5,000 in a year and live,” and I’m like, “Well, it’s 13.27 a day” and she’s like, “Oh, okay. We might be able to do that eventually” and so I think that it comes with the financial lessons along with the legality. The problems get bigger as they get bigger, and the risks get bigger. So something as simple that you and I might do, like call customer service and cancel an overcharge.

Where are they looking to see that there were overcharges or incorrect bills? Are they Venmo-ing each other and hitting the purchase icon? That means that you paid your friend actually less because they kept a percentage of it. So what are the technical pieces navigating? Opening a Roth IRA is something that we did with our now 18-year-old, but that is not something I can do on her behalf.

She’s got to do it, and then we can walk through how do you transfer funds, how do you match those funds, all of those things that just magically happen that we learned overtime I think, is compounding in a quick way for young adults for sure. Vehicle research, how many of them have ever been into the DMV? They took their ACTs online, you know? I remember we have two drivers in the house now and both of them were just amazed at the amount of people and the types of people that waited to the last minute, or they’d never had a license, or that there wasn’t a fast pass.

They’re used to being able to buy things as a fast pass or early boarding, and they’re like, “Can’t you do that here?” “Hmm, let’s talk about entitled just a little bit. We’re going to stand here and talk and have a conversation because cellphones aren’t allowed in the line,” and so all the things you’re doing as an adult, renewing insurance premiums, homeowners insurance premiums, pick one thing, teach about it, talk about it and then at some point, it’s going to be teaching them to navigate those landmines.

What are those keywords to really look for or watch for that can be powerful and it can be dangerous? Buying things and investing in yourself, buying assets even though young kids know, “We buy assets not liabilities,” but do they really know what that means? Comes to fruition when you have more zeros in your bank account as a young adult. Whether it’s from a big giant student loan refund or at the beginning of the semester, you’ve got to live on it.

There is a difference between buying assets and just consumerism. There is a difference between signing and cosigning, especially to people you’re not married with or especially with roommates, having a written financial plan and then sticking to it. At the beginning of the semester, you say you’re not going to spend at all, but by the first week of Christmas, if you are hungry and you’re coming home for food and laundry, let’s have some conversations, or you didn’t budget for laundry because these places say, “laundry included.”

But they didn’t realize, funny story, that they are coin-operated laundry and you have to go now and cash in cash for coins for coin laundry. So that’s where that common sense piece comes in, but really safe teaching moments, where are the things that they can kind of slip up on and be okay and where is it when there is a car accident, and you walked away because you didn’t think there was anything worth calling your parents about is a different conversation.

Where does the deductible come from when the car hits the garage? Those things happen, and as parents, we want to jump in and fix and there may be some lessons there that we want to slow down a little bit and say, “We can financially fix this but what’s the lesson here that we might be avoiding if we’re not encompassing them in those conversations?” As kids get older, they start dating, and they date seriously, and for all of the singles out there, prenup is a scary conversation.

Inheritance is a scary conversation but as it takes you into your dating life and your long-term life, I think those in the financial world say, “You know, your best and biggest investment is a healthy and happy marriage” or a healthy and happy cohabitation. Whatever those are, really can have lifelong consequences, especially as it comes to large inheritances and different things like that.

You also have a luxury tax on families that have a lot of wealth associated, either with their name or with their family or with the reputation that they have and you’re going to be targeted for lots of things that might not be as altruistic as you would think and being aware of those and how do you have those healthy conversations. Insurance plans, everybody has a will, I hope if you’re a listener.

If you don’t, stop what you’re doing and start with that and then you have to talk with your family about it. Our kids know that we have a black book, unfortunately, it’s black, that has all the things in it and they know about it and they know that every once in a while, we’re going to have to pull this out and talk about it and not because it’s something we want to pretend doesn’t exist but because that’s part of being an adult too, it’s thinking about us getting older.

[0:46:45.2] TU: So much wisdom there, Julia, that was fantastic and I think it connects to many other topics as well. You know, you talked about estate planning, you mentioned the cosigning, you know just so much to think about the insurance side of the plan and what’s really jumping off the page to me, especially as we think about the conversations with our kids at all stages is really the ability to have an open dialogue and a conversation, which goes back to the foundation we’re setting, the relationships that we have along the way.

To your point, there is going to be more topics and we probably have time to cover with our kids, especially if we’re getting a later start on this and so how can we build to that trust, some of the foundation, the open conversations that when those difficult conversations or situations happen and they’re out of the house and they’re at college, you know we have a foundation to work through those and make sure we’re addressing the lessons to add to the wisdom, right?

Wisdom to the generational wealth as you said earlier, I think is such a powerful way to view this. Where can folks learn more about you, follow your journey, connect with you as they hear this episode?

[0:47:49.0] JM: Absolutely. So you can find me on all the social medias, Julia Myers RX, and if you’re interested in a free download, I’ve got five family financial conversation starters for all ages at generationalwisdom.co, that’s generationalwisdom.co. I would love to connect with you, hear your journeys, share your stories, as parents our job is big and we find support with each other in sharing these stories and these conversations. So looking forward to keeping in touch.

[0:48:21.1] TU: Awesome. We will link to those in the show notes. So Julia, thanks so much again for joining the show.

[0:48:25.6] JM: Thank you so much, enjoy your day.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:48:27.8] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists in the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% down payment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time home buyers and has no PMI on a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage.

To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to get started with the preapproval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:49:11.8] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information on the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post, and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 310: Dusting Off Your Estate Plan

Posted on June 1, 2023May 30, 2023 by Tim U

Tim Baker CFP®, RICP®, RLP® discusses the significance of the estate plan, what it includes, and 3 action steps you can take to button up your estate plan.

Episode Summary

On this week’s episode of the YFP Podcast, we tackle getting your estate plan buttoned up. We’re joined by Tim Baker, CFP®, RICP®, RLP®, Co-Founder of Your Financial Pharmacist, to talk about estate plan preparations. We go through why it’s important to plan your estate, what an estate plan includes, and what happens if you do not have one in place. Tim then shares his thoughts and insights on three action areas; documentation, beneficiaries, and legacy folders.

Key Points From the Episode

Tim shares some statistics related to estate plan documentation and preparations.
Why it’s important to have your estate plan.
Tim defines what exactly an estate plan is and what it includes.
Tim explains what happens if you do not have an estate plan in place.
Who needs an estate plan.
The objectives of having an estate plan.
We dive into three action areas; documentation, beneficiaries, and legacy folders.
Why having things in order makes life and estate planning easier.
How they tackle the estate plan as part of the YFP Planning financial planning process: The First Five.

Episode Highlights

“[The estate plan] it’s one of those things that a lot of people have a blind spot for — [we] don’t like to think about our death or our income or [of] being incapacitated, essentially, which is what the estate plan tries to solve.” — @TimBakerCFP [0:04:48]

“At the end of the day, [an estate plan] is peace of mind in making sure that your loved ones are cared for in a way that is in line with your wishes.” — @TimBakerCFP [0:10:52]

“What the legacy folder is meant to be is that gathering place of all of the things that are important related to this topic. The estate plan documents, life insurance policies, trust documents, and tax returns.” — @TimBakerCFP [0:19:02]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here. Thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week Tim Baker and I tackle an important and often overlooked part of the financial plan and that’s the estate plan. We get it. It’s not fun to think about end-of-life preparations, so we keep this one short and sweet. Covering what documents you need in place, why it’s important to check your beneficiaries, and why you should create a legacy folder if you don’t already have one.

At YFP planning our team of certified financial planners is ready to help you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. Yes, financial freedom includes ensuring you have your estate plan buttoned up. If you’re interested in joining more than 280 households in 40-plus states that work with YFP planning for one-on-one financial planning and wealth management, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether you’re just getting started in the middle of your career or nearing retirement our team is ready to help. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, you know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. All right. Let’s hear from today’s sponsor the American Pharmacists Association and then we’ll jump into my interview with YFP Co-Founder and Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker.

[EPISODE]

[0:01:19] TU: Today’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast is brought to you by the American Pharmacists Association. APHA has partnered with Your Financial Pharmacists to deliver personalized financial education benefits for APHA members. Throughout the year APHA will be hosting a number of exclusive webinars covering topics like student loan debt payoff strategies, home-buying investing, insurance needs, and much more.

Join APHA now to gain premier access to these educational resources and to receive discounts on YFP products and services. You can join APHA at a 25% discount by visiting pharmacists.com/join and using the coupon code YFP. Again, that’s pharmacists.com/join and using the coupon code YFP.

Tim Baker, welcome back to the show.

[0:02:08] TB: Yeah. Good to be here Tim. How’s it going? It is going, I’m excited for today’s discussion which we’re going to keep somewhat brief knowing that the talk around end-of-life planning is admittedly not the most exciting or uplifting topic. We’re going to be talking about exactly that dusting off the estate plan, making sure we take a minute to take stock of where we are at with these important documents.

Tim, perhaps we have some people that are listening where it’s a chance to revisit the work that they’ve already done and to make sure those documents are up to date whereas for others it’s maybe just a point to get started. We’re going to cover some of the basics, obviously, this is not legal advice. We’re not attorneys but it is certainly an important part of the financial plan.

Tim Baker, I think building off of what I just said I would expect that there are some gaps here as it relates to estate planning for some that again similar to insurance, not a really fun topic to think about let alone execute on, but the data really is eye-opening in terms of just how big of a gap this is for many when it comes to their financial plan. Tell us more about that.

[0:03:17] TB: Yeah. There’s a stat out there Caring.com 2023 Wills and Estate Plan Study that said two out of three Americans do not have any type of a state plan document. I would say that with our work with clients, it’s probably more dire than that. I would say that nine out of ten, eight out of ten clients don’t have any type of documents in place. Now typically the further along you are in life, in your career the more dependents that you have or things that major life changes the more that that might force you to take stock, pause a little bit and say, “Hey, this is important,” But it is one of the major overlook components of a financial plan.

It’s important for anyone to have an estate plan, but I think it’s more important if you same thing with life insurance, Tim, if you have a house, a spouse, and mouths to feed. Now those are typically the things that trigger people to start thinking about this, but on the other side of the coin as you’re retiring and moving into that state of your life, it’s important to make sure that it’s there and you have updated information, you might start thinking more about legacy and charitable things that you need to sprinkle into your financial plan, your estate plan that is warranted to dust it off a bit. But yet, it’s just one of those things that a lot of people have a blind spot for, if you don’t like to think about our death or our income or being incapacitated, essentially which is what the estate plan tries to solve.

[0:05:01] TU: Tim, when I present on this topic, I always put a disclaimer out there that, hey, this is not as we’re talking right here, the most exciting part of the financial plan for obvious reasons and the timing of this is really good. I’m actually in the middle of this section of the plan with our lead planner from YFP planning Kelly Reddy-Heffner. I’ve got some outstanding tasks at dragging my feet on to go back and review some of these documents that we established several years ago and update the legacy folder. We’ll talk about that here in today’s session. Unlike other parts when we came off the section on looking at investments and updating our nest egg it’s like, I’m all in. Let’s do those calculations. Let’s get the work done, right? That’s fun. That’s exciting. We’re planning and thinking about the future.

This, not so much. I think, the data certainly shines a light on that, but it’s what we’re going to talk about here today such an important and often overlooked part of the financial plan that we want to make sure that as we’re building other parts of the plan that we’re playing a little bit of defense with the protection part as well. Tim, what exactly is in an estate plan before we get too far into the episode?

[0:06:06] TB: A lot of people when they hear state they think real estate, Tim, right? It’s not that. I mean, real estate could be part of your estate plan, but the estate plan is essentially the process of arranging in life the management disposal of your assets and property at death or even at in capacity. It’s really important. For a lot of people, the people that really value this type of work have either been burned by it themselves or have a family member who’ve been burned by it, but you really want to direct attention to this. It’s also a plan for health and property in the event that you are capacity like I mentioned.

If you are unable to pay your bills or you are unable to care for a child like, what happens? Unfortunately, if you don’t have an estate plan in place, the state in which you live in writes one for you in what’s called the probate process. Oftentimes, more often than not, you don’t want the state, you don’t want the government to basically say, “Hey this is what happens to your property. This is what happens to your kids.” You might have charitable intentions in your brain that are if they’re not written down in a will or something like that, it’s not going to happen. If these are things that are important to you which I think for most humans, making sure that I know who’s going to take care of my kids. We want to make sure that we’re working within a state attorney to do so.

[0:07:34] TU: Next question I have for you, Tim in terms of, who needs one? As folks are listening you mentioned this previously talked about the house, the spouse, the mouths to feed, but generally speaking as our listeners hear this discussion, who really needs to have this front and center part of the plan?

[0:07:50] TB: Yeah. I think if you’re not in that population of people. If I’m a single person and maybe I’m rented or whatever. It doesn’t mean that you don’t need an estate plan. If you want to make sure that you are directing medical decisions and things like that, you need a state plan and you need to go through that. We put the emphasis on this, because again at the end of the day, we don’t want the dependents that are there if you leave us to not have a proper plan, but that doesn’t necessarily diminish any type of healthcare or plan in need if you’re single and you don’t have dependents or things like that.

I would say, everyone. Everyone should have an estate plan. I think working with an attorney I think is the best in class. Obviously, attorneys cost money. There are a lot of solutions out there that are more DIY forms and things like that which are a little bit cringe for me. But yeah, if you’re in the population of you’re a human and you have a heartbeat, it’s just one thing you should at least consider and go down the path to evaluate if it’s for you.

[0:08:53] TU: We think about what we’re trying to address with the specific parts of the estate plan which we’ll get to here in a moment. I think peace of mind this is something that wherever you are in terms of the different phases and areas of life, knowing that you’ve shorted up this part of the plan. I would suspect that is one big part of the objectives of the estate plan, what else would you consider here?

[0:09:15] TB: Yeah. It’s peace of mind. Given a plan for your family for them to execute in terms of like, how you want to be cared for. How you want the property to be handled. All of that stuff. I think it is really an exercise in the efficient transfer of assets. What we’re really trying to do is minimize cost, so that could be things like taxes, probate, all the documents, all that stuff. Make sure that your stuff goes to the right person, so you hear horror stories of like, the life insurance policy goes to an ex, instead of like a current spouse. All that stuff is on the table.

Those are the objectives. Create a plan so than in the event, Tim, that you’re not here that you have a quarterback for someone that can make sure that property and healthcare decisions are taken care of. It doesn’t have to be the same person. These are typically through power attorneys and the kids are taken care of. Could be that you have a testimony trust that’s set up in the event that you and Jess are no longer here, so then the trust would be created for the benefit of the boys. All of that stuff.

It could be, part of the estate plan. It could be directions that you give directly to your doctor. That’s called the Living Will. That says, “Hey if I’m – I don’t want a breathing tube or I don’t want a feeding tube.” Those types of things. Every state’s going to be different. There’s lots of stuff to cover, but the objective, I think at the end of the day I would put at the top of the list is peace of mind. Peace of mind for you. Peace of mind for the family. The cost and all that stuff is important too, especially if you’re looking at larger estates.

[0:10:52] TU: Yeah.

[0:10:52] TB: But at the end of the day, it’s peace of mind in making sure that your loved ones are cared for in a way that is in line with your wishes.

[0:11:01] TU: This is one of those areas too, Tim, I see there can be momentum that comes from not only having this complete but also having the clarity and the peace of mind of the documents in place. It reminds me of some of the discussions we’ve had around, whether it’s doing an estate calculation as we plan for retirement, whether it’s figuring out how we’re going to tackle the student loans. Sometimes those numbers won’t change dramatically in the short term, but if we can have some of the peace of mind and the clarity around knowing that we’ve done some of the calculations, the evaluation. We’ve considered different factors and now we have a plan that we’re working towards. That momentum can be really powerful as we look at the financial plan at large.

I think the same thing here that this is one of those looming things of like, I know I should do it. I don’t really want to do it. There’s a lot to consider here. It’s overwhelming. It’s confusing. It’s not fun to think about. But once we can see through this and again not something that we just complete and put up on the shelf. We want to revisit this as well. Really, I think gives us a space to be able to move forward with other parts of the plan, as well.

[0:12:04] TB: Yeah. I feel like once this gets checked off it’s a little bit of like, all right like, we have more capacity to look at other things and be excited about some other things knowing that this is taking care of. Again, it’s not necessarily that we just throw it on the shelf and we never look at it, but for a lot of people just to get over that hump and having those documents in place is a big boulder to roll up the hill. Yeah, super important to get it in there. Then our job as planners is to dust it off every once in a while and say, “Hey, what does this look like? Are there changes that need to be made etc.?”

[0:12:41] TU: In terms of action items. Let’s talk about three areas that folks can think about. One would be getting the documents in place and we’ll do a quick mention of what those documents are. Again, the work to be done there really with an estate planning – estate planning attorney, ideally in collaboration with your financial planner. The second would be considerations around the beneficiaries. Then the third, we’ll talk about the legacy folder. Tim, as we move into action items here, number one get your documents in place. At a high level, what are the documents that folks should be considering?

[0:13:12] TB: Yeah. I’m just looking at the estate checklist that Shayna and I have in our financial planning portal, so I can just go through these.

[0:13:19] TU: Yeah.

[0:13:20] TB: Imagine a list on the left and then my name and Shay’s name on the top of the column. These are things like a will. Essentially, once you pass away the court in probate will read your will. Then if it’s a valid will, they’ll basically execute to that. Do you have a will in place? Power of attorney. Really, two types of power of attorney. There could be one for property. Basically, someone that’s going to take control of your bank account, your credit cards, your investment accounts. Either in the event that you’re incapacitated or at your death and figure out work with the courts to dispose of those or move those to the beneficiaries in an orderly fashion.

It could be a Living Will. A Living Will is those instructions that are made out to the doctor. Every state has a different term for it, but you would say, “Hey, do not resuscitate.” Any of these conditions. It could be a Living Trust. A Living Trust is essentially, where you are – if she and I had a – in some states, this makes a lot of sense, but if Shay and I decided to set up a Living Trust we would essentially, instead of our house being in our names it would be in the Baker family trust and all of those assets essentially avoid probate. The trustee in that moment would essentially take control of the trust and any assets that are inside of it whether it’s a house, an investment account, or whatever, the trustee is in charge of that.

It could be if you have kids, it could be like a testimony trust for the benefit of a minor, so some of those become in force or they’re created at one’s death. That would be another thing. Is just, there’s a trust, there are lots of different flavors of trust, but that would be another one that I would ask the attorney about to see if it’s in your best interest to create those. Then the last thing, if I didn’t mention this already is a check on beneficiary designations and get to that a little bit more, but those are the main documents.

[0:15:13] TU: Great overview. We also talked about this with two state plan attorneys, in Episode 222 of the YFP Podcast. We’ll link to that in the show note. We had a good conversation with Nathan and Notesong. I love the way they break down and explain these documents in a very easy, to understand way. Even as you’re engaging and working with an estate plan attorney again, I think it’s valuable to feel like you have some background knowledge and exactly what do these terms mean. That’s number one, get your documents in place. Tim, number two. You alluded to which is something that I’ve overlooked in days gone by. It’s really considering the beneficiaries, especially after you have some of these documents in place. What are the areas that we want to consider as it relates to the beneficiaries and why is this important?

[0:15:57] TB: Yeah. Again, looking at Shame and I’s financial planning, software here, we’re looking at the beneficiary rundown. It shows all of our different accounts from check-in, savings, CDs, investment accounts, our life insurance, and that type of thing. It basically, says like this is the account balance and then like, what’s the death benefit? Typically, if it’s like a cash account or investment, it’s the same. For a life insurance policy, it won’t have an account balance, but it’ll have – unless it’s permanent, but it’ll have a death benefit.

Account balance column, death benefit column. Then it has a primary and a contingent beneficiary. Essentially, if I were to pass away all of my stuff would essentially go to Shay. If we were to pass away, then all of our stuff would go to the contingent beneficiary, which might be direct to our kids or in a trust in the name that’s created for the kids’ benefit. Going through this exercise is really, really important, because again, you hear those horror stories of like this – my stuff didn’t go to the right person and that’s causing pain and additional pain and anguish to the surviving heirs.

Having a checklist to go through and make sure that things go to the right people is really, really important. If you haven’t done that in a while, it’s important to do so and a lot of people don’t have a beneficiary set up. If that’s the case, then that goes through probate. If there isn’t a beneficiary that IRA for example goes right to Shay or goes right to the trust and that is good, because it avoids probate and you don’t have to worry about that in court. That’s a really important thing to make sure that you’re on top of.

[0:17:46] TU: Yeah. I think the thing that might get overlooked here, Tim, is maybe someone has a spouse where on an IRA or on a life insurance policy whatever it may be where before they set up some of their state planning documents. It might be the spouse and vice versa that are listed as a beneficiary and depending on how they set up the trust in the estate planning documents, they may need to switch some of that over time.

Again, I think it just speaks to yes, there’s a lift up front of work to be done, but as other parts of the plan evolve this is something we want to be revisiting every, so often. We’ll talk about what this looks like in relation to our planning services and how the planning team is regularly engaged in this activity. That’s number two. Check your beneficiaries. Number three. Tim, again, I think such an important part of this process especially from a peace of mind is around this concept of a legacy folder. Creating one if you don’t have one. Updating one if you already have one. Tell us about what this looks like.

[0:18:43] TB: Yes. If you’re all buttoned up in those other areas of the docks in place and beneficiaries, that’s great. You’re ahead of a lot of people. However, if your loved ones don’t know where to find everything like the documents or passwords like, it makes their life a lot harder. What the legacy folder is really meant to be is that gathering place of all of the things that are important related to this topic. The estate plan documents, life insurance policies, trust documents, and tax returns. You could include something there like a side letter.

Tim, if I pass away, I want my ashes to be sprinkled on a linking financial field that’s not going to be in an estate plan, so things like that, that you want your loved ones to know about, maybe final wishes and even like passwords like, I can’t tell you Tim, how many – we probably have 10,000 passwords each day. Where are those? How do your loved ones access them?

I think if you can create a legacy folder and either put it in a fireproof safe or a safety deposit box or some people do this electronically and you can give that to a loved one along with a death certificate, they’re able to operate and basically manage your estate much, much easier than if they’re trying to look for things and dig through folders and drawers and parts of the house that they don’t necessarily know where to go.

It’s that, hey, this is a folder or a filing system that has all of the things that are important related to this topic that your loved one knows about. Communicate to them where this stuff is. It’s really important, too. This could be important for your own stuff. This also could be important for if you are the executor or the person for say a parent. It’s important to have your house in order, but I think it’s also important that if you are the person that might be taking care of elderly parents that you know that what the plan is for them, as well.

[0:20:52] TU: Yeah. Have a copy of those documents as well on hand. This reminds me, Tim. One of the things you’ve said before on the podcast is for you, I think when the clocks change you use that as a signal to pull your credit, right? Do check in your credit report.

[0:21:04] TB: That’s right.

[0:21:05] TU: I think a similar rhythm here like whatever that is, especially with how quick information can I change whether it’s passwords, whether it’s new accounts, new documents, transfers of accounts like making sure that you’re looking at this on the regular. I love what you said, right? That we can do such a great job in getting all these documents together, but do others and our loved ones know where these are at in the event that something would happen that this is needed.

This reminds me much, Tim of a great conversation I had way back when with Michelle Cooper who wrote a book on the topic of her journey as a widow to Love, Happiness and Financial Independence navigating some of the challenges that can come when you lose a loved one. Not only, obviously, emotionally what’s happening at that moment, but also then being able to navigate through that difficult time, especially if you’re in a situation where maybe one of the people in a household taking over a more active role of the finances, making sure that all parties have a good understanding, but what’s going on and where those documents are located.

This is an area, Tim where I get a lot of peace knowing that. Hey, if my financial planning team has access to these documents or knows where this information is as well, as parents, and in-laws, or whoever is going to be an integral part of the execution. That also helps in understanding that there’s more than one party that’s going to be involved to be able to sort this out and to be able to work through this.

[0:22:33] TB: Yeah. Again, if you put yourself in maybe in the state of a grieving spouse and you’re working with a planner that has visibility on this type of thing like the life insurance companies or whoever you’re dealing with. They’re not coming out of the woodwork to pay a claim. I would be like, “Hey, what about this?” Again, not to be morbid, but I would say, “To Jess. Hey, what about this life insurance policy?” Or this that she might not be thinking of because that’s not where her brain is.

I was talking to a loved one recently. I think it was something like some type of insurance policy. He was the executor for another family member. He was like, trying to find this document. He got lucky like he found like the policy that he was able to put in a claim, but they’re not like, if something happens, they’re not like banging down the door for them to pay you money. If you have everything in order here, it just makes life a lot easier.

[0:23:33] TU: Yeah.

[0:23:33] TB: And from a financial perspective it makes things a lot easier to get the support that you need for the heirs, for the dependents that are left behind.

[0:23:44] TU: Tim, do you see for folks that choose to do the legacy folder electronically, I would assume there’s still somewhat of a hybrid approach, right? I’m thinking about things like social security cards, birth certificates, and other things that they might want to have physically of court, a physical document in a fire safe proof, whereas other things they want to house electronically that makes it for easier updating. Probably, I’m curious from your perspective or either how you and Shay do it. Do you see folks doing more, hey, everything is hard copy in a safe or try to do as much electronic, a hybrid, what do you see?

[0:24:19] TB: Yeah. I mean, I think there’s some services out there that trying to do like an electronic offering. For us it’s like, it’s both. I’m a big Google user, so like we have a folder that has essentially everything in it. We use a password vault. There’s a document that has instructions related to that.

[0:24:42] TU: Yup.

[0:24:43] TB: But then there are some things that the way that I do, it’s “see hard copy” and then there’s a spot that, because I’m like, for me to go back and scan some of these things or like policies like, I don’t know, but we got time for that, Tim. It’s a hybrid approach. I think the ease of use of being able to share some folders electronically using something like Google along with some of the paper stuff is how we’ve pieced it together so to speak, yeah.

[0:25:13] TU: Tim as we wrap up, I want to talk about how we functionally execute on the estate planning part of the financial plan as relates to the financial planning services that our team offers at YFP Planning. I would say to rare that someone comes up to the door interested in our services and saying, “Can’t wait to work with you guys. We’re going to work on the estate planning part.” –

[0:25:32] TB: That’s right, yeah.

[0:25:32] TU: The insurance part of the plan. Usually, it’s, “Hey, we’re focused on saving or investing for the future, retirement planning, perhaps those folks earlier in the journey student loans, home buying, growing family, etc.” But this is one regardless that we’ve got to make sure that we’re looking at whether it’s the first thing on the list or not. What does this look like in terms of the planning team and the service we offer and how we execute on this?

[0:25:55] TB: Yeah. The way that we do this. The way that we tackle the plan and then this part of the plan is we have the first part of our engagement with clients, we call the first five. The first five is really designed to go through the critical pieces of a financial plan. The first one is, get organized. This is where we are going to do a deep dive into your client portal. We’re going to look at your checking, your savings, your investment accounts, your house, your mortgage, your student loans, all of the things with an eye for what’s your net worth? What’s the quantitative starting point?

The second meaning of the first five is we call scripture plan which is all about, now that we know where we’re at from a balance sheet perspective, from a net worth perspective where we’re going, so like, what are the goals? Like what’s important to you? This might where you might say like, “I want to take that trip to Paris. I want to maybe go down to part-time or four days a week. I want to retire in the next five years. I want to start volunteering.” It’s like a roadmap of where we want to go. For us to be able to advise clients we need to know where they’re at balance sheet and where they want to go balance sheet and like the goal stuff.

Then from there, it’s a plan overview. We’re looking at hash positions, savings plan, debt management, student loans for a lot of our clients and making sure that we do have the balance sheet and the goals right, so we’re confirming that. Planning for major purchases that type of thing. The fourth thing is typically what we call wealth building, so that’s the investments retirement planning, making sure that we’re moving accounts over for us to manage, allocating that in a way that’s in line with the risk profile, potentially looking at building retirement paychecks that type of thing, social security stuff.

Then the fifth one, typically, is wealth protection. This is where we really get into things like life insurance, disability insurance, or through the heavy hitters. It could be health insurance, other things, property casualty insurance, but also the other protection is the estate plan. In the absence of an estate plan, we’re going to recommend that they work with an attorney to get the state plan in place or it could be reviewing that and making sure that it’s up to date, it’s in line with what they need. They’re not exposed in any way and that, it’s in line with their wishes.

Then from there, the plan goes into more of a plan review and implementation. It’s the things that drives that agenda and the things that the client wants to talk about, the things that we feel are maybe the bleeding head wounds like, “Hey did you sign your will? Did you sign your state documents yet?” Make sure that those are in force. The things that are — we view as exposure or risks to the plan and then our regularly scheduled program. Hey, it’s been two and a half years, Tim, since we actually like, did a formal beneficiary review. Let’s get into the client portal, go through these accounts, and make sure, oh, you add it. You bought the CD, where is that going to go? Or we added this Roth IRA, can we check the primary condition, and beneficiaries and make sure that we’re sprinkling those types of checks in as we go? It’s been a while since we looked at the credit report. Let’s look at that.

That’s our rhythm. That’s our cadence, so we want to make sure that throughout the course of our relationship with clients that we’re touching all parts of the financial plan not just the parts that are exciting like maybe investments. Unfortunately, the estate plan falls to the bottom of the barrel. We want to make sure that we bring that up from time to time. We want to make sure it’s there, but then also, it’s current and in line with everything that the client wants.

[0:29:41] TU: Its a great overview. I think that’s valuable for our listeners to hear. I think sometimes when folks are looking at financial planning services, we throw that term out there generically and that can and does look wildly different from one firm to another about what they cover, what do they not cover, how often do they meet, as we’ve talked about before variants and fees and charges and scope of services and fiduciary responsibilities or not. All of these things can be different and to get a sneak peek into the first five and what to expect with the planning team obviously estate planning as one part, but a lot of work to be done getting that plan set up to begin with as well as ongoing.

We feel strongly Tim, whether someone’s coming in the door, “Hey, I’m near retirement and I’ve got three, four, five million dollars saved.” Or they’re coming in the door with a net worth of negative three hundred thousand dollars, because of student loans and other liabilities that it’s important that we walk through methodically. Those steps as we’ve seen that – in some cases maybe they’ve done some of that work, but often there’s some opportunities to be able to shore that up and make sure as you point out before we develop the path forward of whatever that plan is, whether that be starting at the beginning of saving or withdrawing some of that as they go into retirement. We got to have a good vision of where we’re going. We got to get organized before we can even do that.

Great stuff, Tim. Dustin off the estate plan quick overview as we mentioned we’ll link to some of the previous episodes that we’ve talked about on this topic. One that will revisit occasionally as well for folks that are looking to learn more about YFP Planning, this comprehensive financial planning services. You can go to yfpplanning.com. We’ll also put a link in the show notes where you can book a free discovery call to learn more. Thanks so much, Tim.

[0:31:21] TB: Yeah. Thanks, Tim.

[OUTRO]

[0:31:22] TU: Before we wrap up today’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, I want to again thank our sponsor the American Pharmacists Association. APHA is every pharmacist ally advocating on your behalf for better working conditions fair PBM practices and more opportunities for pharmacists to provide care. Make sure to join a bolder APHA to gain premier access to financial educational resources and to receive discounts on YFP products and services. You can join APHA at a 25% discount by visiting pharmacist.com/join and using the coupon code YFP. Again, that’s pharmacist.com/join using the coupon code YFP.

As we conclude this week’s podcast an important reminder that the content on this show has provided you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog, posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless, otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week

[END]

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YFP 309: Top 10 Tax Blunders Pharmacists Make

Posted on May 25, 2023October 5, 2023 by Tim U

Sean Richards, CPA, EA, outlines the ten most common mistakes he saw pharmacists make throughout the most recent tax season. This episode is sponsored by First Horizon.

About Today’s Guest

Sean Richards, CPA, EA, received his undergraduate degree in Corporate Finance and Accounting, as well as his Master of Accountancy, from Bentley University in Waltham, MA. Sean has been a Certified Public Accountant (CPA) since 2015 and received his Enrolled Agent certification earlier this year. Prior to joining the YFP team, Sean was the Senior Treasury Manager at PRA Group, a global debt buyer based in Norfolk, VA. He began his career at American Tower Corporation where, over 10 years, he held several positions in audit, treasury, and accounting. As the Director of YFP Tax, Sean focuses on broadening the company’s existing tax planning and preparation operations, as well as developing and launching new accounting offerings, including bookkeeping, payroll, and fractional CFO services.

Episode Summary

The tax filing deadline is behind us so time to sit back and relax, right?! As YFP Director of Tax, Sean Richards, CPA, EA, tells us today, it’s important we are keeping tax front of mind year-round to avoid common blunders that show up during tax filing season. During this episode, Sean outlines ten of the most common mistakes he saw pharmacists make throughout the tax season including his thoughts on how year-round planning can help mitigate these mistakes.

Key Points From the Episode

Sean gives us his tax-season rundown.
The award for the most difficult state for tax returns!
Sean takes us through ten of the most common tax mistakes made by pharmacists.
The cause of the ‘unwelcome surprises’ and how to avoid them.
Not taking advantage of tax laws: energy credits.
Underestimating the power of the HSA; a grossly underutilized tool of the financial plan.
A good reminder about over-contribution.
Having someone in your court to help you avoid taking nonqualified IRA distributions.
Not saving for taxes when earning additional income.
Also for our side hustlers: not expecting the FICA tax on self-employment income.
Some of the mishaps and mistakes that have to do with employer-dependent care.
Not factoring in PSLF when choosing a filing status.
Reporting implications: overlooking considerations with cryptocurrency.
A bonus mishap: education around extensions.
How year-round strategy planning can help pharmacists optimize their tax situation.

Episode Highlights

“I know, taxes aren’t something that people love to think about and want to be excited about but it’s one of those things where if you sweep it under the rug, it’s not going anywhere, it’s only going to grow under there.” — Sean Richards [0:6:55]

“If you’re making money that’s outside of a W2, whether it’s investment income, capital gains, whether it’s a side hustle, really anything where you’re not seeing that federal income tax withheld line, you better be putting taxes aside or being ready to pay that at the end of the year.” — Sean Richards [0:21:45]

“Crypto is treated like an investment as far as the IRS is concerned. It’s like a stock.” — Sean Richards [0:31:39]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

On today’s episode, I welcome the director of tax, Sean Richards, back onto the show. Now that he has had a chance to take a breath from the last few months, working toward the tax filing deadline, I pick Sean’s brain about some of the most common blunders that he saw pharmacists make throughout the season and how year-round planning can help individuals not only avoid these mistakes but also optimize their tax situation.

If you’re looking to learn more about how YFP’s comprehensive tax planning service can help you and your tax situation, go to yfptax.com. Again, that’s yfptax.com Okay, let’s hear it from today’s sponsor, and then we’ll jump into the show.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

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[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:00.2] TU: Sean, welcome back to the show.

[0:02:01.8] SR: Thanks for having me. Yeah, it feels like it’s been a while but I think that’s just because tax season tends to you know, slow time down for some of us over here.

[0:02:09.7] TU: You look much more rested than I saw you just a few weeks ago. So here we are on the other side of the tax filing deadline. We’re going to talk all in this episode about some of what you saw this season with the hopes that pharmacists can prevent some of those mishaps as they work throughout the year on their taxes but looks like you’ve been – haven’t had a chance to maybe recharge and refresh on sleep. So how are you feeling post-tax of mine?

[0:02:34.3] SR: Yeah, I’m feeling great. I’ve been catching up on some of the things that have been put on side burners so to speak but definitely getting a little bit of sleep, catching up with the family and stuff. It feels good. I’m well rested, there are still some things to tie up from last year but ready to move forward and look ahead to next year and like you said, try to hopefully get some of these ideas in people’s minds so they can plan now and not have any of this kind of hiccups or roadblocks come up next year.

[0:02:59.5] TU: So give us the rundown. I know there’s still work to be done with some of the individual and business extensions and some of the more complicated returns but how many returns did you and the team do thus far?

[0:03:09.2] SR: We did over 200 federal returns and a similar number on the state side. So I mean, if you think some folks have multiple states, some people are in states that don’t have taxes so you know, you kind of, they work themselves out there but yeah, over 200 federal returns. We did a fair number of extensions, there are some business returns mixed in there, so it’s kind of all over the place but that’s the rough number between the few of us here.

So definitely, it feels like quite an accomplishment here but yup, I mean, definitely have some of those more complex returns that we want to give a little bit more TLC to, those are still hanging out there. So now that we’re past the big push, we can really focus and try to maximize savings for those folks. So excited.

[0:03:48.1] TU: Which state, Sean? Which state wins the award for the most difficult state when it comes to returns?

[0:03:53.3] SR: Boy, I don’t know if I’m going to be getting a misery love company or if I’m going to be jading people because I feel like a lot of our listeners kind of land in this territory where our headquarters are but I had to say, Ohio, probably gets the cake, Pennsylvania right up there, close second but yeah, those two are probably the worst I’d have to say.

So again, hopefully, people aren’t sitting there saying, “I love those states” and if that’s the case, you know, all the power to you but not for me.

[0:04:20.8] TU: Yeah and one of the opportunities, challenges, depending on how you want to look with it, you know, we’ve got tax clients, financial planning clients all across the country, which is a unique opportunity and challenge when you think about all of the nuances that happen, especially in the tax side, right? On a state basis or even here in Ohio, we have the RITA, Regional Income Tax Authority, did I get that right Sean?

[0:04:43.1] SR: Yup, you got it right.

[0:04:43.9] TU: Which provides another wrinkle. So it’s fun to hear you and the team complain about Ohio and PA and you know, some of the other states perhaps are a little bit easier. So let’s jump into the most common mistakes Sean, that you and the tax team so far is just making and we’ve compiled these on our website, yfptax.com. If you want to download these and read a little bit more information on each one, please do that.

So we’re going to go through this one by one and again, the hope of this is that we really want to shift the perspective around taxes that the only time we think about taxes are April, when we’re filing, right? This really needs to be proactive year-round planning. We’ll talk more about that at the end of the show and that’s why we thought, “Hey, here we are in the month of May, tax season is over but this is not a, ‘Put it up on the shelf, worry about it ‘till next year.’”

This is the prime opportunity to really be learning from the season that just was and looking at the opportunities ahead of how can we best optimize the situation before we get back into the filing next year. Again, If you want to download a copy of the guide where we talk about some of these mistakes, you can go to yfptax.com and do that. So number one on our list Sean, perhaps the most common, I would presume, you can tell me if otherwise is folks that got a surprise bill or a surprise refund when they got to filing.

So my question here is, tell us more but what is the usual cause of these unwelcomed surprises?

[0:06:14.7] SR: Yeah, I would say that’s the most common and it’s probably purely because if you take a lot of these other things that we’ll talk about, they all sort of work their way into that at the end of the day. You know, if you’re making a mistake, somewhere along the way, you’re probably going to end up with either a large bill or a large refund, so it kind of encapsulates everything.

Yeah, and just to kind of go back to your point before, this really is the best time to be looking at these things. I mean, any time of the year is good but when you’re coming off tax season, you might be disappointed or looking at things saying, “Oh, that didn’t go the way I hoped it would, I had a bill or I had the refund.” You don’t want to just kind of say, “Oh, finally, I’m done with it, we’re passed the 18th, I’m filed” and sort of shake your hands off and say because what’s going to happen is you’ll be in the same spot next year.

I mean, I know, taxes aren’t something that people love to think about and want to be excited about but it’s one of those things where if you sweep it under the rug, it’s not going anywhere, it’s only going to grow under there. So yeah, the surprise bills and refunds, I mean, that can really be a litany of different things that can cause it. The biggest thing I would say probably by far is really just simply not withholding correctly at your job.

And this one frustrates a lot of folks and I don’t blame people because you know, people will say, “Hey, I’ve been at the same company for a while now” or “You know, my situation’s not that complex, how can they not be withholding properly?” and I have to say as a tax accountant, I don’t love the new W4 that the IRS rolled out a few years ago. If anyone working for the IRS is listening to this and they want to give me their opinion on it, feel free, my line is open because you know, I’m a tax accountant.

[0:07:43.0] TU: I don’t think we have many pharmacists that are IRS agents.

[0:07:44.7] SR: Oh hey, you never know, there’s a little bit of overlap here. You don’t have to be a pharmacist to listen to the pod but no, I mean, with that one, I just, I really wish there was a way as an accountant to be able to say “Hey, withhold 18% from this client, please. Just withhold 20% from this client” but it’s not that simple. I know what they’re trying to do, they want to make it more user-friendly where folks kind of can’t mess that stuff up, or if they don’t know how to come up with that number, it’s supposed to kind of guide you through it.

So I think the biggest thing there is that the W4 is sort of designed to try to pick up everything else that’s going on in your financial life aside from just that one job that you’re working and typically, what will happen is folks will get married and they won’t update their filing status or they’ll get married or maybe not even get married but say, they already were married, their spouse gets another job.

They have a side gig and these are all things that you know if your company – your system doesn’t really know that that’s happening, right? So if you’re making money off to the side, doing another job, you work multiple jobs, your spouse works multiple jobs, you know all those things factor into what your tax bill is going to be at the end of the day and if your company doesn’t know what’s going on then it can’t withhold properly and I say, your company, the payroll company was kind of doing all that stuff behind the scenes.

So that one is tough because there’s not a perfect answer. Really, the best way to do it is to take a look in the middle of the year and say, “Okay, where am I at, where was I at last year?” You know obviously if you had any kind of issues last year, you can submit a new W4 and how to change that but doing a projection midyear, take a look at what you’ve already withheld, what you withheld last year, and try to tweak that now, that’s definitely the best time to do it.

[0:09:19.1] TU: Yeah, and we’re going to come back to that topic Sean, of a mid-year projection, why it’s so important on the tax side as we get into the summer months. So stay tuned for more. Again, we’re going to be talking tax all throughout the year as we think it’s certainly an important part of the financial plan. So that’s number one, would be a surprise bill of refund at filing.

Number two Sean, not taking advantage of tax laws. This makes me think of some of the recent changes that you’ve talked about before on the show surrounding the inflation reduction act, and the electric vehicle credits. I know this seemed to cause a fair amount of confusion and concern this year during tax season, and maybe some surprises as well. So what are you referring to here as it relates to not taking advantage of the tax laws?

[0:10:00.8] SR: Yeah, and with that in particular, I mean, we keep kind of harping on the energy credits but that’s where the tax law tends to be going now. I mean, all these things that are coming out, there are changes sort of across the board but the biggest piece and where the biggest dollar savings are tend to be these renewable energy credits, improvements to your home that are energy efficient, things like that.

And yeah, at the end of last year, the inflation reduction act went in and there was a lot of confusion as to which credits change when those credits change. So some of the electric vehicle stuff happened at the day that the law actually went into effect, whereas some of the other energy credits like home improvements like I mentioned, windows and things like that, didn’t really increase until this year, 2023 going forward.

So there were folks who spent money last year and were expecting a larger credit for their taxes in 2022 and didn’t see that. So it’s really just, you know, it’s difficult to stay on top of the tax law, especially if you’re not a tax accountant or aren’t familiar with those types of things and especially if you want to stay out of politics too but it’s really challenging because it’s one of those things where if you’re not spending the money in the right timeframe, it’s not something you can go back and change after the fact.

You know, if you put windows on your house now that’s a 2023 event. When we’re doing your taxes in 2024, we can’t say “Hey, I wish you had not done your windows because they’re already done.” So it’s something where it’s really important to make sure that if you’re spending money, thinking that you’re going to get a credit or you’re hoping you’re going to get a credit, really understanding when those things go into effect, what the dollar value is, and what the limits are.

That’s another thing that some of these things, they’re increasing their limits but they do still exist. So you know, if you spend, USD 50,000 on an improvement, you’re not necessarily going to get a USD 50,000 credit.

[0:11:42.6] TU: Yeah, and we’ve got some info on this, yfptax.com, we’re going to be updating this throughout the year as well so make sure to check out the information there and Sean, this is just another testament to why the year-round planning is so important, right?

If we’re looking at this in the tax year, so here we are, now in 2023, obviously, next spring, spring 2024, we’ll be filing for 2023. At that point, right? Decisions have been made in terms of what happened during that year.

So are there adjustments that we can be making mid-year or are there tax laws and situations like this that we can make sure we’re up to speed or at least have the right understanding before we make some of these bigger purchases that may or may not have the impact that we’re hoping they’re going to have.

So that’s number two, not taking advantage of the tax laws. Number three, Sean. I have to say this one pained me a little bit because we’ve talked so much about this on the show.

[0:12:34.4] SR: So much.

[0:12:35.1] TU: Which is, underestimating the power of the HSA, the health savings account. You know, we’ve continued to emphasize how this – only has tax advantages but we still see this as an utter underutilized tool in terms of the financial plan. So tell us more about what you’re seeing here.

[0:12:51.8] SR: Yeah, I think with the HSA, it’s one of those things where people think, “Oh, I need to have a lot of medical expenses to take advantage of it. If I’m putting money there and I don’t use it, I’m not going to get the full advantage of it” but really, you need to not have that mindset and really think of it as a secondary retirement vehicle basically where if you do have expenses that you need to take advantage of it, it exists for you.

But if you think of it almost as a second IRA or something like that, then it kind of shifts that mindset of, “Oh, I need to have these health expenses” but yeah, HSAs, I know, ad nauseum we talk about it but they have the triple tax benefit. You get the deduction for your contributions, you get tax-free growth and you get to take it out tax-free. So you rarely see that triple tax benefit. This is one of those ones where there is a little bit more flexibility.

I just mentioned some of those credits and having to get the dollar spent during the year. You have a little bit of flexibility with the HSA where you usually have up until the filing deadline to actually make contributions or on the flip side and we saw a lot of this is people who work multiple jobs or got married in kind of weren’t talking to their spouse and over-contributed. So you want to make sure if you did that, you pull that money out so you avoid any penalties there.

And again, you have a little bit of flexibility after year-end to make those changes but to any extent you can avoid that, obviously, it makes sense but yeah, the limits are going up next year. I think 77.50 for a family plan, you have to be on a high deductible plan but if you are and you’re not taking advantage, you’re really just losing out on that benefit honestly.

[0:14:15.5] TU: Sean, I’m glad you mentioned the over-contribution mishap that might happen here and I think it’s a good reminder. Tim Baker was my ear, you know, anytime we talk about backdoor or Roth IRAs, he’s always beaten the drama of you know, really there’s a lot of nuances to consider and we see on the planning side, our planning team works with a lot of folks that you know, are trying to unwind some of the mistakes related to the backdoor Roth IRA contributions.

And I think it’s a good reminder that as there’s more and more information out there, right? We talk about HSAs, it’s readily available, something you can learn about that yeah, we still have to cross out Ts and dot our Is and I think having someone in your corner, right? Financial planners, tax professionals, perhaps both that can help make sure we’re executing this properly, really, really important.

Number four on the list, Sean, taking nonqualified IRA distributions. We are talking before the show, perhaps maybe even a little bit broader than IRAs, tell us more about this one.

[0:15:09.0] SR: Yeah, IRAs are really just kind of retirement plans in general. I know we just mentioned HSA as they’re a sort of a secondary retirement vehicle but just not taking advantage or properly utilizing IRAs. So we’ll start with the IRA piece, there are a couple of different things there. You can get a deduction for traditional IRA contributions.

Folks typically phase out of that pretty quickly and then the next kind of phase-out level will be your Roth contributions and kind of what you were just alluding to is that folks also kind of pretty quickly phase out of that as well and that’s one of those things where you don’t want to end up at the end of the year saying, “Ah, you made too much money but you already contributed this to your Roth.”

So now you’re going to go back and pull it out and then try to do the backdoor that Tim was talking about. So yeah, to any extent, again, you can have somebody in your corner where you can say, “Hey, this is what I’ve done so far this year, does this make sense? Am I going to over contribute, am I going to be in a good spot? Do I have room to contribute more?” Definitely make sense to do and again, you know the IRA limits are going up next year.

Again, the contribution limit. So taking advantage of that makes a lot of sense and the other piece that you didn’t really mention there but we kind of alluded to is just retirements in general. I mean, 401(k)s at people’s businesses, not taking advantage of those. You know, having extra cash on hand and not maxing out your 401(k) whether it’s a Roth to get the benefits in the future or a traditional to get that tax benefit now.

I mean, either way, we saw a lot of situations where folks had a lot of cushion there and could have contributed more and that’s one where that at 1231, you can’t go back. So can’t turn back time, got to get those in before the year and again, having someone in your court to say, “Hey, you know, you’ve only contributed up to 30% of your 401(k) and we’re already in October, you might want to do some catch ups” is really important.

[0:16:47.8] TU: Sean, did you get a feel, I’m just curious, from folks that, if I heard you correctly, it looked like they’re wise margin there. They could have made those contributions or as cash on hand but didn’t. You know is that just a, “Hey, we overlooked it” or do you have a sense of you know, some of the volatility in the market, inflation, what’s going on in the broader economy, that there’s some hesitancy in the contributions into the retirement vehicles and people wanting to hold on to more of that cash.

[0:17:11.2] SR: It could be a lot of different things. I mean, it could also just be an education thing. I mean, I know, even when I first started out at a corporate job coming out of the school, you get all these different paperwork and everything and they say, “Here’s your 401(k), here’s this, here’s that” and you’re just saying, “Okay, I want to get the company match. Great, I’ll put this amount down and everything” and you don’t really realize that you have a limit that you can hit yourself and kind of capitalize on.

So I think it’s really just a matter of maybe not looking at cash flow, like you were saying, potentially not taking a look at that in the middle of the year. I don’t think there’s a whole lot of hesitancy with the market or anything like that. I think it’s more just a matter of, you kind of set it and forget it and you know, you come to the end of the year and somebody says to you, “Hey, did you know that you could have knocked USD 5,000 off of your taxable income if you’d contributed more to your 401(k)?” and a lot of people just say, “I didn’t know that” so.

[0:17:59.3] TU: Yeah, yup. Seeing the numbers, right? I think in help and hindsight and you know, once you see the impact on the tax situation like, “All right, got it, point made, I’ll make that a correction for next year.” Number five, Sean, I think is one we have not yet talked enough about on this show, which is not employing a bunching strategy for charitable giving.

So here without talking obviously about donations and really looking at how to potentially alternate as you look at the standard deduction and then bunching these and those off year. So tell us more about this one.

[0:18:30.5] SR: Yup. So this one is more of a unique scenario. It’s one that we always take a look at but not everybody’s going to fall into this bucket but if you do, it’s something that if you’re able to take advantage of, it can be very, very powerful. So the idea of bunching is really trying to pull itemized deductions as much as you can into one year and then in the next year, not having as many and taking the standard deduction because it just getting higher and higher nowadays.

I mean, just the number of folks that we see taking the standard deduction, even though they have things like mortgage interest and taxes that they’re paying for still taking advantage of the standard deduction because it’s so much higher.

So yeah, if you’re looking at it and you say, “Hey, you know, I was USD 500 away from the standard reduction” or “I itemized USD 500 more than the standard deduction this year” and you had quite a bit of charitable contributions, if you’re able, again, sort of pull those in and say, “Hey, if I’m going to do a thousand dollars over the next two years, I’m going to do a thousand dollars this year and maybe not anything next year” and you can do it on 1231 so you kind of the same feel for giving to them that the charity.

But, if you’re able to do that and take advantage of it, it can be really powerful, and that way you’re not losing out. That was one thing we got a lot of is, “Hey, I have a house and I paid this mortgage interest but I am taking the standard deduction. So am I losing that benefit?” and it’s not the best way to look at it but you’re not really getting the full benefit if you’re doing it that way.

[0:19:50.1] TU: Yeah, as you mentioned, this really applies, not to say that everyone, depending on the amounts of folks are giving but especially for those individuals that are giving additional dollars to various organizations, churches, nonprofits, communities, et cetera, there could be some real benefits to the bunching strategy and I’m you know, one who is victim to this in terms of just behavior, right?

Where you might have contributions on an automatic monthly payment or you’re planning for it throughout the year and you just don’t take the time to take a step back and say, “Okay, from a strategy standpoint, I’m going to do the standard deduction this year and then we’re going to do the bunching strategy next year.” So again, just some proactive planning to make this happen.

[0:20:31.6] SR: And it doesn’t always work for everybody because I mean, I talk to people who said, “Hey, that doesn’t match my giving strategy” and that’s perfectly fine.

[0:20:37.8] TU: Sure, yup.

[0:20:38.3] SR: It’s really just if you wanted to help out your financial strategy, there are options out there. I’m not saying you should change the way you give to your charities. It just exists, right?

[0:20:48.6] TU: Number six and number seven are specifically for folks out there that are earning some additional income, side hustling, business income. So number six, Sean, not saving for taxes when earning additional income.

It sounds obvious but we see more and more pharmacists that are dabbling in various side hustles, consulting businesses, so I think this is becoming a more prevalent mistake, probably one that maybe you make once and then you don’t make again but talk to us about what you’re saying here.

[0:21:16.4] SR: Yeah. So I mean, it does sound simple on the surface but again, if you’re not used to it or it’s not something that you’ve kind of done before, it’s not second nature, I guess. So right, if you, you know, you work a W2 job, that federal income tax is being taken out, hopefully correctly, although as I mentioned in the first thing here, sometimes it’s not correct but you know, hopefully, your income tax is being taken out at the end of the year.

You sort of do a true-up and maybe owe a little bit, maybe you get a little bit back but that’s that. If you’re making money that’s outside of a W2, whether it’s investment income, capital gains, whether it’s a side hustle, or really anything where you’re not seeing that federal income tax withheld line, you better be putting taxes aside or being ready to pay that at the end of the year and like you said, typically, that’s one where if you make the mistake, you don’t do it again in the future.

But you know, I think some people are just really excited about making money and they want to pour the money back into their business, which is perfectly fine. You know, we want to encourage people to build their businesses and invest back in but just make sure you’re setting aside enough at the end of the year to kind of make sure you have at least a little bit of a cushion there and having somebody to do that calculation for you.

Because you know, just because you’re going to – you think you’re going to net this much at the end of the year, doesn’t mean that that’s what your tax bill will be. I mean, there’s lots of ins and outs there, different things you can do. So having somebody to be able to take a look and say, “Hey, you know, as of right now, you’ve made 50k of non-withheld income so you’re going to want to put 20% of that aside, 25% of that aside, just be ready for it.”

[0:22:45.8] TU: Yeah, and I think there’s here, a couple of pieces you’re highlighting, right? Which are the mechanics of where do I save it, how much should I be saving based on how much I’m earning, and then at what point do I need to be making quarterly estimated payments and I do this, right?

I reached out to you and say, “Hey Sean, we’re coming up on the Q1 estimated payment.” Like based on what we’re seeing in terms of the financial statements like, what’s the plan, and then we’re saving in a tax account along the way to be ready for those payments. So good thing, right? If you’re paying tax, you’re growing the business.

[0:23:15.0] SR: Exactly and I will admit the IRS estimated payment process, it doesn’t really even feel that natural. I mean, you are kind of doing the math yourself, going onto the website and just saying, “All right, here it is” and they just take it and then at the end of the year, it does. It comes into your play, it’s one of the lines where you basically say, “Okay, what did you withhold? What did you pay in? What did you owe?” and we do the math on it.

But it just feels like you’re sort of sending money out into the abyss when you make the payments. So I kind of understand that folks are a little apprehensive and would rather hold off but again, I mean, I’m conservative. I’m a tax accountant but at the end of the day, I’d rather get a little bit more money back than owe a lot of money.

[0:23:55.0] TU: Yeah and Sean, a separate conversation for a separate day. This is a little bit more to the business strategy but one of the things that I like about withholding at least a quarter of it but at least on your own side even on a monthly basis is it forces you to look at the financials of the business a little bit more closely, right?

So I think there can be a tendency if I am not paying tax and then I get either caught off by a surprise bill or I just wait until the end of the year and pay it, you know, you may fall into the trap of assuming your business is more profitable than it actually is and so really looking at what is the service, what’s the product you’re offering and what’s the true financials if you’re considering the tax.

[0:24:31.1] SR: Not to go too far off but another big thing is that a lot of people kind of just assume that cash and profit are the same thing.

[0:24:36.4] TU: Exactly.

[0:24:37.1] SR: That’s not always the situation, right? So you could have a big profit at the end of the day but if you are pouring that cash back in, you might not have any cash on hand. So they don’t always go one for one and if you get away from that it can really end up causing some problems for sure.

[0:24:51.7] TU: Preach it, Sean. We need to come back and do an episode on that, the difference between cash on hand and profit of a business, so that’s a good one.

[0:24:58.3] SR: Yeah, that one, I’ll make a note because that could be like a double episode but yep, I’ll put that one on the back burner for sure.

[0:25:04.7] TU: So that’s number six, not saving for taxes when you’re earning additional income. Number seven, also for our side hustlers and those that are running a business, not expecting the FICA tax on self-employment income. Tell us more about the FICA tax here.

[0:25:17.7] SR: Yep, so that’s kind of similar varied, similar vein as to what we were just talking about really just having to kind of put that money aside but again, something that’s not second nature. It’s not something that you’d really be typically thinking about until you get into this and potentially make a mistake, hopefully not but right. When you have these W2 jobs and the money is being taken out, you’re withholding for yourself and you’re paying social security and Medicare, which we call FICA for yourself.

Your employer is paying half of that for you whether you realize it or not and when you are self-employed, so you have a partnership or your own kind of business and you are getting that money in, you have to pay that portion of FICA yourself. Now, the benefit is that you get that employer portion that the employer typically would be paying for you on a W2. You do get that as a deduction, so it helps a little bit but yeah.

I mean, that what was it? 15.7% or whatever for FICA is coming out of your bill at the end of the day. So on top of the regular income tax you have to set aside, you should really be saving for that as well. That’s where you’ve heard me say before, you know, 20, 25%, maybe up to 30% depending on what your bracket is, you start to add that FICA in on top of it and you could be looking at quite a bit to be setting aside.

[0:26:27.6] TU: Yeah Sean, this was one I would add to this as well. You know, the surprise of the cost of health insurance. This is one as well, you put those together and you go from a W2 job to running your own business is like, “Oh, okay.” So again, right? You’re looking at the financials in a very different way.

[0:26:44.5] SR: Yep, exactly. Things to keep in mind.

[0:26:46.8] TU: Number eight, Sean, has to do with some of the mishaps and mistakes with employer-dependent care. Tell us more about this one.

[0:26:53.3] SR: Yeah. So there is a lot of different things with dependent care benefits that you can add to dependent care FSA. So it’s a little bit different than the HSA but with that, that one really is a little bit more of the, you know, I was saying with the mindset within HSA, “Oh, if I don’t have medical expenses and I don’t use it, you know it’s not going to be worth it for me.” It turns into an investment vehicle if you don’t use it.

Dependent care FSAs, flexible spending accounts, if you have cash in that, that is more of an “if you don’t use it, you lose it” kind of thing. So that is something where if you’re pushing cash aside, they are pre-taxed dollars. You want to make sure you are using that for dependent care expenses during the year and the other thing is that if you are getting benefits from your company, you want to make sure that you are also putting that and actually spending that on dependent care.

When I say that, I mean a nanny or a daycare or even if it’s a family friend but somebody that you’re putting their social security down and saying, “Hey, I paid this person this much money to watch my children” otherwise, that can become a taxable event. So you want to make sure that if you have kids, you’re getting these benefits, that you are utilizing the cash during the year and not kind of ending up with excess in those accounts at the end of the year exactly.

[0:27:58.9] TU: Number nine Sean, an oldie but a goodie, one that I think has lots of attention given the three-year loan pause and that is, not factoring in PSLF when choosing a filing status. Tell us more about this one.

[0:28:11.3] SR: Yeah and this one, I mean, you just eluded to it. It’s been very, very challenging, especially with the client base that we work with having that ambiguity on what’s going on with the loan system and trying to give guidance on this front because it’s really tough when you’re saying, “Hey, we’re not exactly sure if they’re going to turn back on and how all that looks and when we’re going to have to recertify all these things.”

But yeah, what we’re talking about here is that typically when folks get married, if filing joint tends to be the best approach there and we always do a comparison at least on our side to say, “Okay, you know all else equal from an objective tax standpoint, filing jointly will save you X number of dollars versus filing separately” but when you are talking about PSLF and you get into these income-based repayment plans and are looking at AGI, that can really swing very, very rapidly between what your AGI is as merely filing separate individual versus your combined AGI with your spouse when you’re filing joint.

So this is one where it’s a classic like you just mentioned Tim Baker, the old “it depends” really depends on your individual circumstances here. You’re going to want to look and say, “Hey, what do I have on my side? What does my spouse have on their side? If you separate us, what does that look like? What is my income base repayment plan? What numbers are they looking at?” and really like we just said, “When do I have to recertify these things?”

“When am I going to have these payments?” because it’s a matter of you could save $200 by filing jointly this year but if you are saving $50 a month on your payment by filing separately, that adds up very quickly. So it’s something where there’s a lot of moving pieces but it is something where if you are not looking at those pieces, you can very, very quickly end up spending a lot more money than you think.

[0:29:49.3] TU: Yeah and it is so important. You know, we’re talking about PSLF here but the intersection of student loans and the tax strategy is one of many examples where the financial plan and the tax plan need to be jiving, and this example specifically brings us back to the origins of FYP Tax, right? I remember Tim Baker talking about, “Hey, we would develop these beautiful student loan repayment strategies and plans.”

Then they’d be, “Hey, go talk to your accountant” and not all accountants are well-versed in student loans, which is fair, right? Based on how nuanced they are and right now, how rapidly this information is changing. So shoutout to you Sean, the YFP Tax team, you know working with a tax prepare, working with an accountant that understands student loans. Again, this is just one example but really, the intersection of the financial plan and the tax plan is so important that those are jiving in the same direction.

[0:30:39.8] SR: Yeah and like you said, I mean, not all accountants know about it and I know enough to be dangerous with it but you have to have financial planners that know about that too. I mean, that is something where I could be working with you and say, “Hey, I think from a tax standpoint it looks like this” and you could go bring that to your planner, and if they’re not really thinking about these implications, they can really get away from you quickly, you’re right.

[0:30:58.3] TU: Number 10 on our list of ten common mistakes, mishaps that pharmacists were making during the most recent tax season is overlooking considerations with cryptocurrency. I mean, what would be a tax episode if we didn’t talk about crypto in digital assets, so what do we see here?

[0:31:12.4] SR: Well, this one probably is a little bit different than we’ve seen in the past with crypto. It wasn’t so much that we are seeing people with these big gains that they were necessarily expecting. In fact, if anything it might have been the opposite given what kind of happened with the market and everything last year but in that and what I would say with that is you know, if you kind of take the gain-loss implications aside, the biggest thing I would say here is just the reporting aspect of it.

So cryptocurrency again and I feel like I harp on this all the time is crypto is treated like an investment as far as the IRS is concerned. It’s like a stock, so if you go and you’re doing all these microtransactions all the time and you’re using your crypto wallet to buy coffee down the street, that is effectively saying, “Okay, I’m going to sell X number of shares at this price on this day” whatever I bought it for back in the day that same security.

You need to look at what your basis was and do the math, so if you are doing hundreds and thousands of these transactions every year, the reporting implications are significant and that’s not something where you can say and I am not just saying this because I’m an accountant, I’m biased where you can’t just say to your accountant, “Hey, here is my list of a thousand transactions, you know, figure it out for me.”

You need to make sure that whatever system you’re using can spit that out in a digestible manner whether it is actually getting a form from the IRS or kind of getting a summary and one thing that we have seen is in a lot of these companies and I don’t blame them necessarily but a lot of them will kind of rope you in and say, “Hey, you know it is going to cost you five dollars a month for the basic crypto wallet” and everything like that.

Then you get to the end of the year and all the tax forms that you need will be kind of an extra charge and you are not thinking about it and folks will say, “Well, I have an accountant, they can kind of do that for me” but I mean, again, and I am not just saying that because I don’t want to do it. It really is a matter of an accountant simply can’t take thousands of transactions and stick them onto a form.

It is not a practical thing that can happen. So you want to make sure that whatever you’re doing and again, if you want to do all those transactions, hey, power to you but keep in mind it’s like you’re selling shares. You need to make sure you are getting something out of your system that an accountant can then use and file your taxes with because it’s not like spending money. It’s like selling stocks.

[0:33:19.6] TU: Yeah, I am hopeful Sean, this is another one you know, where you can make this mistake once and you maybe approach it differently in the future, right? I think this is an education where your explanation is spot on. If we look at this in the eyes of the IRS, which is that we’re making a transaction in terms of like we were selling stock and especially if we’re using it to purchase things on a daily basis, right?

A store, a cup of coffee, groceries, whatever like we don’t think about our stocks like that typically and so I think that — not to say people may not transact crypto for purchases just like you would dollars out of a brokerage account but maybe not on the frequency that it’s happening if you are able to think of it in that way and understand the reporting and the tax implications there, so great explanation.

[0:34:04.6] SR: Exactly. I think like I said, that the basis is really the biggest thing and I, you know, people, if you talk to me you’ll hear me say it all the time and you’re probably sick of it but it is really being able to trace back and say again, like it’s like a stock, right? So if I sell XYZ NFT today, I need to make sure I know what I purchase XYZ NFT for in the future, and when you are doing all these things and you’re day trading so to speak, and saying, “All right, I am going to flip this one here and I’m going to go buy crypto with this one” and kind of moving, each one of those things has to be kind of traced back to the origin.

If you don’t have that information, you could end up paying more, honestly. You know, if you don’t have the basis information and you are just going to end up sell, reporting it on your sale price and not have the basis in there, you can end up either paying more or again, reporting incorrectly. Both of those are not what we’re hoping for in our side at least.

[0:34:55.9] TU: So if anyone heard Sean correctly as I heard him, all of your handwritten crypto transactions, your reports, your chicken scratch, you can email those to [email protected]. He will gladly – just kidding.

[0:35:07.8] SR: Yep, I will go through all of it in all of my free time now. Absolutely, I will break it all down for you, please.

[0:35:14.0] TU: Awesome. So that’s our ten common mistakes that you saw pharmacists making throughout the tax season. Can I add one more? We’re going to do a bonus round here for a moment and –

[0:35:22.5] SR: Yeah, go for it.

[0:35:23.2] TU: I think we need to do some education around extensions, right? I think this is an area where I know firsthand the first time I extended several years ago and I have gotten used to that practice now. It can feel uncomfortable, am I doing something wrong, does that mean I’m delinquent? But as you eluded to at the beginning of the show, there are some extensions that are happening with the more complex returns.

We want to make sure that we have the time that we need. The misperception I think, I could be wrong, that’s out there is extension means bad or extension means delinquent but that’s not the case, right? So tell us more about the use of extensions and why they may be appropriate.

[0:36:01.9] SR: Yeah, glad you’re giving me the bonus round. I would have had this as 1-A on my list if I would have thought that you would have actually allowed me to record this podcast if I did that. I thought that I came over the top of that one, we might be deferring this recording out to a future date but no, extensions, yeah. So it is actually kind of twofold. I would say that from who I’ve talked to and this could be clients.

I mean, even family members that I was talking to during the tax season, checking up on how things are kind of going, I would say with the negative connotation, it’s one of two camps. It’s either, “Hey, the extension means bad and delinquent” or extension means, “Hey, I’m this crazy tax guy who has offshore accounts and you know, I make five million dollars and I need to have my accountant spend the extra time to do all of this stuff.”

Those are really the two mindsets that I got a lot of. I mean, like I said, I talk to people that I know, I’ve known for a long period of time who I consider to be financially sound individuals and they said, “Oh extensions, those must be for your big ticket clients, right?” and the answer is not really. I mean, extensions simply give us, your accountant, and you more time to get your things together to allow us to dedicate the time to find you tax savings, get your things right, and not rush them.

I mean, I know Paul, my team who I’m sure you’ve heard talk on this pod before but he’ll always say, I mean, if you have a surgeon who needs to do a thousand surgeries in a year, would you rather him do them all in three months or her do them all in three months or have them do it throughout the course of the year, you know, with X number during each month. So you got me all fired up because you know, extensions are near and dear to me.

But I mean, really what it comes down to is we’re trying to do a lot of different returns and a lot of people have very complex situations but we want to make sure we get it right. We talked about states and local, moving states, and making sure states don’t talk nice to each other even ones that border each other are not – don’t always agree with how things are picked up and everything, and just getting all that information together, making sure we can parse through it, maximize your tax savings and everything, extensions just give you the time to do it.

Now, the one thing I will say is it does not extend your due date to pay. That’s the biggest thing. So what you want to do is get an estimate, and make your payment if you think you are going to owe or in April or even beforehand but after that’s done, it really is a one-click kind of thing. It’s an automatic extension, once you do it, it’s six months. You get until October and that’s that. It really is not for delinquents.

It is not for folks who didn’t get their stuff in on time or like I said, are using offshore accounts to do X, Y, and Z. It’s just simply to give your accountant more time to get it right.

[0:38:41.5] TU: Well, thanks for allowing me to throw some kindling on the fire, so I appreciate that.

[0:38:45.3] SR: Thank you, I appreciate that.

[0:38:45.8] TU: You know, I think it is a good reminder not only in the perception of it but also you know, some folks may hear this and say, “Well, you know there is an opportunity cost that if I am getting a refund” and we don’t file that for three months, four months, five months later, whatever that those dollars could have been used elsewhere. True but my counterpoint to that would have been, one, if we are planning correctly throughout the year, we shouldn’t be expecting a massive refund.

Second to that would be is that most often, extension doesn’t mean we’re buttoned up against the October deadline. It means that maybe instead of April 18th, it’s May 1st or 15th or even the end of April or into later in May or early June, whatever. So you know, it allows kind of that stretching out of the season to make sure that we’re doing the job that needs to be done, be done well, we are optimizing the situation.

I think that certainly for folks that have more complicated returns, I think what we’re seeing in the industry in my perception even with an accountant we used to work with before building our own practice internally was, “Hey, you’re a small business owner. Hey, you own a bunch of real estate” hey, whatever like you’re automatically extended. You know, that’s just kind of the process of what they do to make sure that they have the time to do those returns well.

[0:39:55.5] SR: Right and like you said, the idea of year-round tax planning is you’re working with your accountant throughout the course of the year. You are getting the information, you have rentals, you’re getting them, “Hey, I sold this place in November” and you are giving them the information in November so your accountant can already have that stuff ready to go and it’s not a situation of you’re in March and you say, “Hey, I forgot” or “FYI, sold my house back in January of last year. Here’s the 5,000 documents for it. Can we get this filed next week?”

The answer is, I mean, we probably can but you know if we are thinking about these things ahead of time, we can spend the time that we think it deserves to get everything right, and if you are doing that planning throughout the course of the year, you can get 90, 95% of a tax return effectively done through the conversations that you’re having with your account throughout the year. So yep, absolutely.

[0:40:40.4] TU: So Sean, let’s wrap up by talking through how the year-round planning can help pharmacists not only prevent these mistakes but again, better yet optimize your tax situation. That really is the focus of what you and the team are doing through the comprehensive tax planning, what we refer to as CTP. Again, not just that transactional return month of April, got to get it done but really that year-round strategy and planning.

So you know, what is comprehensive tax planning? What do we offer? Why is it needed and who is it for and perhaps, not for as well?

[0:41:11.3] SR: Yeah. So comprehensive tax planning is designed to really attack everything on this list, right? So it’s where you’re doing proactive planning and thinking about your tax situation now and not at the end or not in the beginning of next year looking back on this year and again saying, “I wish I could have done this” or “How could I have done this differently?” It’s getting ahead of those things now so you don’t have to worry about that.

So things like mid-year projections, “Hey, let me grab your paystub, let me talk about some of those side gigs you’re doing, give me an updated PNL” or even if we’re doing your books for you, I’ll pull down the updated PNL and we’ll take a look. “Hey, you know you’ve withheld this much money so far, your side gig is going to make this much money we think so far. Have you put that money aside yet? Did you make an estimated payment?”

“I think you should make a payment of this much” checking in on those things or being able to have the conversations of you know, “Hey, I just bought a rental property. Tell me about the short-term rental loophole” or “Tell me about what it’s going to take for me to be considered a real estate professional and be able to offset some of my active income with this passive income” or “Hey, I just bought the rental and hearing all about all these tax credits.”

“How does that work? How do those tax credits affect my personal return and then how does it affect my rental property? Are those going to be different? Can I maximize them?” These are the conversations that we’ve been having with folks over the past few months looking back on last year but proactive tax planning is you’re having these conversations now. You are having them in May, June, and July and getting ahead of these things.

So when we talk about March and April that big push, it is really a matter of, “Hey, did we do what we say we’re going to do? Excellent, great. Okay, what are your tax bills? Zero. As expected. Awesome, file? Done. Food to go.” Just really having that phone-a-friend CPA to ask questions for, “Hey, you mentioned bunching when we looked at my return last year. You said I was close to the itemizing. How can I actually employ that now?”

Or “Hey, this is what I’ve contributed in my 401(k) so far this year, do I have room to add more?” things like that. Just getting ahead of it now while there’s room to make changes and not looking back and saying, “Ah, I really wish I did that.”

[0:43:19.9] TU: Great stuff. So you know it’s again, not only that finally and it’s the mid-year projection, it is having an accountant in your corner to make sure you are executing throughout the year, answering those questions as they come up. So folks can learn more at ypftax.com. You can read more about that service, you can book a free discovery call to see whether or not it’s a good fit for your personal situation.

And again, whether you came off the season and you’re like, “Hey, I did that myself and I never want to do that again” or you were surprised by a refund or a bill or perhaps you have a situation that’s changing, right? It could be moving, a new job, dependents, acquiring real estate, or building a small business, all are these I think there’s a few examples of things that we want to be thinking about in planning throughout the year.

So again ypftax.com, you can learn more and book a free discovery call to see whether or not that’s a good fit. Sean, thanks so much for taking the time. I appreciate you coming on the post-tax season and looking forward to having you on throughout the year.

[0:44:15.6] SR: Yeah, thanks, Tim. Glad to be back and hopefully next time, we’ll be able to talk more about some of these backburner items. So I am looking forward to it.

[0:44:22.1] TU: Awesome. Thanks, Sean.

[0:44:23.1] SR: Thanks. See you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:44:25.3] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists in the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% down payment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time home buyers and has no PMI on a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage.

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:45:10.4] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information on the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 308: YFP Planning Case Study #6: Balancing Retirement Savings With a Major Purchase & Education Planning

Posted on May 18, 2023May 17, 2023 by Tim U

The team at YFP Planning discusses a case study that includes balancing retirement savings with a major purchase and education planning.

Episode Summary

If we don’t earmark our cash for specific items, we’re very likely to spend it. In this YFP Planning Case Study, Tim Baker, CFP®, RLP®, Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA®, and Angel Melgoza, MS CFP® use a hypothetical couple (Joe and Jane Script) to discuss balancing retirement savings with a major purchase and education planning. After being provided with an overview of the couple’s finances and their goals for the future, Kelly and Angel pick apart their investment approach and offer advice for how they could make it more sound. From the importance of saving with the intention of avoiding getting hit with a surprise tax bill, this episode will make you think more deeply about the way you approach your financial plan!

Key Points From the Episode

Setting the scene for the Joe and Jane case study.
Joe and Jane’s net worth and their assets and liabilities.
Goals that Jane and Joe have for the future.
Kelly and Angel share their thoughts on the first steps Joe and Jane should take to optimize their financial situation.
How Angel recommends Jane and Joe deal with the funding of their children’s college education.
The importance of being open to making adjustments to your financial plan.
Working out which elements of your financial plan to prioritize.
Why many people end up saving less money than they could.
How to avoid getting hit with a surprise tax bill.
Angel’s approach to insurance.
Documents that you should have in place to protect your family in case of your death or disability.

Episode Highlights

“When I talk to clients and I look at their balance sheet, the first thing I want to make sure is that you have a sound emergency fund.” — Angel Melgoza [0:08:15]

“We can’t do everything. We have to prioritize and decide what makes the most sense to overall have the best plan for the future.” — Kelly Reddy-Heffner [0:13:16]

“We tend to save, but we also tend to spend anything that is not earmarked.” — Kelly Reddy-Heffner [0:19:05]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00] TB: What is up, everyone? Welcome to our sixth edition of YFP Planning case study. Really excited to get into this one today. We’re going to talk about Joe and Jane Script. It’s a really creative name that we have here. We’re going to do something a little bit different for this particular case study. We’re going to basically set the client up in our planning tool, which is RightCapital. We’re going to stay, not necessarily so much in a spreadsheet, but in the planning tool and outline the details of Joe and Jane Script and their family and what they’re looking for. I am once again joined by our lead planners, Kelly Reddy-Heffner and Angel Melgoza.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:00:36] TB: Really excited for you guys to be here to chat about the scripts. What’s going on? Kelly, first to you, what’s going on in life?

[0:00:43] KRH: Not too much. End of tax season, doing quarterly meetings and hoping that it stops raining in Pittsburgh at some point.

[0:00:53] TB: Yeah. Crazy weather. When you guys were out here after tax season it was like spring-esque. Now it’s really cold again. It’s super weird. I put a vote for warmer weather here too. Angel, you’re probably accustomed to some warmer weather. How’s it going where you are?

[0:01:12] AM: Very warm. Hot and humid actually. We’re preheating to our summer already. Yeah.

[0:01:18] TB: Awesome. Let’s get into it guys. I’m going to share my screen, so apologies for those listening on the podcast, because this will be very visual. We’re going to talk through some concepts, but if you’re interested, check out the YouTube channel, we will have our beautiful smiling faces on the YouTube with a screen share of what we’re working through with the client. I’m going to work through this. What we’re looking at here is a snapshot and what this tells us at a very high level just what is going on with the client. I’m going to dig into some of the juicy details about Joe and Jane; the job, the balance sheet, some of the goals.

The first thing I’m going to look at for Joe and Jane is just like where are they at? What are they doing? What’s the family look like? Joe recently accepted a new MSL job based out of Louisville, Kentucky. They’re both Louisville, Kentucky, University of Kentucky grads. That’s where they went to pharmacy school. Joe is an MSL. Jane is an oncology staff utilization pharmacist. They have twins Addison and Sean, age 11. Their home is in Louisville. They filed their taxes jointly, but they’re actually from the Boston area. They have a lot of family in the Boston area.

The balance sheet really looks like this. I’m going to click into the balance sheet. Their balance sheet at present, their net worth is about, we’ll call it $894,000. They have about $1.3 million in assets with about $386,000 in liability. The assets break out a good amount in cash accounts, so they’re joint checking, they have $35,000, they have 80,000 in joint savings, so that’s 115,000, that’s liquid. Then they have a non-qualified or a joint taxable account that has about 15,000 in it.

Then most of their investments are in qualified assets. Joe has an old 401k that he’s rolling over to YFP planning for us to manage that has about $196,000 in it. He’s currently contributing to his new 401k with his new MSL job that has 5500. Jane, her 401k is currently at 236,000. Joe has a Roth, it has about 85,000. He also has an HSA that has about 15. Then the kids, they both have 529s that are identical, about 19,000 that they’re currently contributing to. They own their home in Louisville. The property’s worth about 575,000 with a mortgage that has about 281,000 left.

The other liabilities they have is a joint credit card that has about 15,000 that they normally pay off. They have a HELOC for home improvement that’s hanging out there that has about 19. Jane has a car note at 28. Then Joe still has some lingering student debt that’s about 12,500. One of the surprises that they had when they went to file, we were talking about tax season earlier guys, is they found out that about $30,000 tax bill and those are some surprises that are not fun to get, but they basically have to figure out how to pay off this $30,000 tax bill to the IRS.

Overall net worth about 893. Now, to pivot to some of the goals that they have, they very much want to make sure they get back to Boston to see family. They want to make sure that they’re supporting the twins’ activities in sports. Between the two of them have more frequent date nights. From a career lifestyle, they want to make sure that in the future, they have the ability to work less if they can. They’d love to be able to purchase a vacation home, maybe pivot into a retirement home in Florida. They’d love to take a domestic, annual big trip with the family.

One of the big goals that they have is to take the whole family to Australia before the kids go off to college in the next seven-ish years. Then they have some legacy goals where they want to be able to pay 100% of the twins’ college, at least for the four years of undergrad. They want to be able to give back to the University of Kentucky and also some other charities. That’s the picture of where they’re at. I know we have some topics of discussion listed here, but Kelly, what would you say jumps out at them. We didn’t get really too much into some of the insurance stuff, which we can dip into. Obviously, they have some debt that they have to work through, but what are some of the big things that you would tackle first with Joe and Jane?

[0:05:30] KRH: At first glance, definitely a bit of a large cash position, so trying to figure out what is their spending to see like what the emergency fund should or could be and then seeing if they have some resources left to take care of some of the debt. The little student loan out there would probably be top of mind, making sure the credit card really is paid off each month. Those would be really important things to tackle early on, I would say.

[0:06:05] TB: Yeah. I think one of the cool things that the tool has shown us is just a liquidity analysis. How much should you keep in that emergency fund? The target that we have here, if you assume current monthly expenses, which I think we should confirm, right? That’s one of the things that sometimes you can put in a box like what we spend, but when we actually connect actual spend accounts, it’s more than that. But their target for their emergency fund is about 40,000 and their actual liquidity between their checking and their savings is about 115.

There’s probably a scenario that we could peel off some of those extra dollars and potentially pay off the credit card to your point, Kelly, to make sure that that is completely paid off, which the balance is 15,000 at this point. You also have a 19,000-hour home equity, which was one of your highest interest rates. If we look at the interest rates, and again, we didn’t necessarily go through this from the jump, but the mortgage is not bad, 281,000, three and a quarter percent. Home equity, line of credit, 6% which is a little bit higher.

Jane’s car, which is about 28,000, 4%. Joe’s student loan, three and a half percent, so not terrible. The IRS would have to figure out what the payment plan is for that. I just put in a placeholder of three percent. Then the joint credit card, obviously 24%. Making sure we tackle this first. I agree. I think something along the lines of like right sizing in the cash position to either clear out debt or the conversation that we could have is does it make sense to put dollars towards things like an education goal or retirement?

Again, I wouldn’t necessarily be sleeping very soundly at night if I knew that I owed the IRS money or if I had a credit card balance hanging over my head. I think a good analysis to go through with the two of them, just to see how do we deploy these extra resources, so to speak? Angel, how about you? When you look at their scenario at a high level, what jumps off the page for you?

[0:08:12] AM: I have to echo Kelly’s thoughts here. Really, when I talk to clients and I look at their balance sheet, the first thing I want to make sure, because of course you have two little ones, is that you have a sound emergency fund. If you have an excess cash position, I think the second thing I’d like to look at is, of course, any debt that’s over. My rule of thumb is usually 6%. I think credit cards fall within that. Paying down that is just as good as investing. It goes back to the old saying of paying, saved as a penny earned.

[0:08:43] TB: Yup. Yeah. I think that’s one of the things is like, if you can guarantee a 6% investment, that’s not terrible. That’s where the S&P is, once you account for inflation over long periods of time. Definitely, looking at the debt would probably be first on the list. How about Angel, when you look at one of the big things that they have that I think is probably not one that we get a lot of in terms of, “Hey, this is my education plan for my kids,” it’s more of, “I’m not really sure how I want to approach the education.”

A lot of pharmacists, again, they feel the pain and the sting of student loans. They would rather not replicate that for the kids, but when you look at, “Hey, we want to send both of them 100% for four years in the next seven years or so,” how would you break that down for them in terms of the feasibility of it?

[0:09:36] AM: I mean, twins are 11 years old right now. They’re not too far behind on the saving aspect of it, but of course, we want to make sure that we try to meet our clients’ goals as much as possible within the confines of keeping things realistic. When I say realistic, of course there’s so many ways to fund college from student loans to savings and cash flow. But there’s really only one way to fund your own retirement. When I get clients that are adamant and that’s just the number one most important thing to them, I just like to just go back and say, “Okay, well, what happens if you have to work a little longer to do this. Four or five, six more years? Are you okay with that?”

One of the things that I love about RightCapital that it shows us, is there going to be a shortfall? If there’s a shortfall, how do we right that ship? But from a rule of thumb perspective, I mean, kids are still 11 years old. We don’t know if they’re going to get scholarships. We don’t know if they’re even going to be one to go to college. I would say a good starting point is maybe funding a third of the college tuition.

[0:10:40] TB: Yeah. If we look at the analysis on the tool and we messed around with the twins. We basically said, “Hey, both Joe and Jane are University of Kentucky grads so maybe one of their kids will go to Kentucky.” We picked Sean as the recipient of that. When we looked at that and we looked at Sean’s college goal and we basically looked up University of Kentucky, one of the interesting things is we can actually click in and we can choose either in-state or out-of-state. If we assume that we’re going to be in-state, the total cost for in-state tuition is about 35,600 per year.

If we compare that to Addison’s college goal, it’s actually more. Addison’s college goal, if we use a goal to fund a public four-year in-state, it’s actually a little bit less at 28,000. But the interesting thing is right now what they’re saving, they’re saving about 200 bucks per month. $2,400 per year into the twins’ 529. $400 total, but separate 529s. If you look at the analysis, Sean, if we assume he’s going to the University of Kentucky, they’re not at 100%. They actually have a funding shortfall of about $157,000. That’s about 23% to the goal.

Now Addison should be a little bit ahead, because if we use the four-year average versus University of Kentucky, she’s at 30%. The funding shortfall is about 112,000. This is probably an exercise, Kelly, in saying, “Hey, this is the reality of where we’re at today.” We know the goal is 100%. We’re pretty well below that. We’re not far from that one third rule that we always talk about. How would you approach it? I mean, Angel talked about affecting retirement, but maybe there are some levers that we can pull today to get closer to that, but how would you approach that with this particular client in terms of looking at the numbers?

[0:12:47] KRH: Well, I think once you talk through some of those goals, I do think that Angel is right, like that conversation of how it directly impacts other goals. Most people do wish to retire at some reasonable point in time. I think that the next step is to show how retirement’s looking and how on track the household is for that. Often, we can’t do everything. We have to prioritize and decide what makes the most sense to overall have the best plan for the future. This already looks, like you said, Tim, in the range. We’re at 30% for Addison, a little bit lower for Sean with decisions. I would look at retirement and I’d also start laying the groundwork for having conversations with their children as well about what is going to be available and how to make good choices. Yeah, I guess I would look at the retirement numbers next to see, do those look like they’re in great shape? How are investments flowing for that?

[0:14:00] TB: Yeah. I think that’s a great segue. I do want to come back to the tax bill, because I know we’ve had some discussion about that off-camera and what that looks like. Let’s look at the retirement analysis. Angel, can you set the tone here in terms of what we’re looking at? Right now, what they’re showing is a 54 probability of success, which doesn’t look that great. To Kelly’s point it might be where we’re looking at things like the vacation home that we haven’t yet talked about, sending the kids 100% through college, working longer in retirement and maybe rank order in those things in terms of what’s most important. How would you approach, you know, this is more of a dire outlook in terms of how the probability of success is looking here?

[0:14:48] AM: One of the things I like to go over with clients is the 30,000 square foot view of it all before we really dive into the details and just let them know, “If we keep on going at the pace you’re going. If we keep your goals the same, that 54% or as I like to say, five out of 10 times you’re going to have to make adjustments. When adjustments need to be made, that’s what we’re here for to help you out with, of course.” That’s what this probability really says. I mean, the software in and of itself runs thousands of simulations of probabilities. Of course, because the clients are a little younger, there’s more than that. But it lays a good foundation to say there needs to be a change done and that’s what we’re here to help you with.

[0:15:30] TB: Yeah. I think one of the things that we haven’t even talked about is just even like the way that they are invested might be a little bit more conservative compared to maybe what they need to be. I think looking in terms of other levers to pull might be where you don’t necessarily have to save any harder, but they have to maybe take a little bit more risk with their investments. That might be something to look at.

Yeah. I think one of the things that can be lost here is that if you look at it, it’s like half the time you’re going to fail, half the time you’re going to succeed. It’s not really about that. It’s really, to your point, it’s like, we’re going to make adjustments on the fly meaning like, if we don’t do these things, the idea is that at the end of the rainbow when the plan is over is typically at Joe and Jane’s death, there’s still money there. If there’s not, then that’s what they would say is a failure, so to speak.

Let’s talk about the Florida home. One of the big things that we were looking at when we were talking about their goals and some of the cash flow, we’re looking at a blueprint of, “Hey, we’re going to take it in annual vacation every year.” I use this nerdy lifestyle cargo, some new vehicle every seven years. Q7Y, so nerdy script shorthand. We have an Australia trip baked in here. What I basically did was just added it to the 10,000 that we’re saving, plus the 15. We’re saying like 25,000 for a family of four to go to Australia. No idea what that costs, so that would be something that we’d have to adjust as we approach that.

Then the big outflows that really occur at Sean and Addison’s college in 2030 when Joe is 50 and Jane is 46, and really for the next four years. Then what he’s saying, or what they’re saying is that, “Once the kids are out of college, we’d like to be able to move on a vacation home.” I think what we’re seeing is that if we assume a vacation home is half a million and we put 20% down, we just see the plan be a bit exasperated. It’s like, “Hey, we don’t have enough cash money to put towards this.” It’s starting to pull from things like retirement accounts, which we would say probably don’t want to do that, correct?

[0:17:43] AM: That’s right.

[0:17:45] KRH: Yes.

[0:17:46] TB: Then what’s the process here? As again, it goes back to what’s most important? How would you – Kelly, how would you break this down in terms of just prioritizing the goals for the client?

[0:17:56] KRH: I definitely think part of it is conversation and talking through what is most important, like when you start to see data align that everything may not be possible. This is quite a bit of stress on a budget to have the four years of college for two children at the same time. Then the vacation home to be on the backside of that. The college timing is unlikely to change, but like the vacation home, if it’s done at a different time interval, does that make a difference? But looking at the numbers, the stressor is pretty significant. It pulls quite a bit from the retirement accounts.

Then it’s looking at savings capacity. If you’re having the conversation that these items are all very important, you’d like to do as many as possible, then it’s looking to see, is there room each year now where you could be saving more if this is really what’s most important? We tend to save, but we also tend to spend anything that is not earmarked. We talk a lot about smart goals like, if college is a goal, if the Florida home is a goal. Really looking at how much you need to be putting into each account and do you have that like, some of the cash flows when we had looked off screen, look like there’s years where there could be some additional resources. Like, can we start there and say, “If you really get a little bit more intentional with saving, like those unsaved cash flows and the second to last, can you take some from there and help better meet the goals?” But we do tend to spend what we make. We tend to spend the extra almost before we’re going into goals a lot of times.

[0:19:59] TB: Yeah. I think to your point, Kelly, if you look at their cash position, again, they have some debt, but there’s probably per their plan, they’re running a surplus of unsaved cash flows that if you say, “Hey, double your education or double the amount of money.” Right now, they’re putting 200 bucks into a taxable account, which we’re earmarking for a vacation home, 200 bucks to Addison’s 529 per month, 200 bucks to Sean’s 529. If you double that, maybe these numbers are closer to zero, maybe there is more of a shortage, but those are the things I think that, it goes back to one of the things we talk about all the time on the podcast is just like investing or saving with intention.

I think it’s easier to do that than to put it in a dark hole, which is like a savings account. Now it’s good to have that when you do have a tax bill and things like that, but those would be the things that I would be pressing on. It’s like, can we do more from the aspect of dollars going into those three accounts? Even Joe’s 401k. He’s putting in 10% and he gets a decent match. Jane’s maxing that out. Can we get to 11, 12? What’s the road to get them to max out so we’re not seeing so much of a surplus of cash or basically on spend cash, but we’re directing them more intentionally towards the goals, if that makes sense?

Can we pivot and talk about the surprise tax bill? Like, this does happen, right? How does this happen? What are the ways to get in front of this? Cause this is never fun to go and file your taxes and say, “Hey, congratulations.” It’s better if you have $30,000 back, although we know that having that $30,000 in hand throughout the course of the year is important. When you’re on the other side of that, not many people are just putting money aside to pay the tax man. Why does this happen? Angel, how can we get in front of this? What are your thoughts with regard to the tax bill?

[0:21:57] AM: One way it happens is that you don’t pay enough taxes during the year. Typically, what we do here is we do tax projections with tax professionals’ mid-year to see, are you on pace to paying your fair share of taxes? If you’re not, of course, we have to adjust that through your employer. Of course, that’s how to get in front of it, just to see, are you on pace to pay your fair share from this year’s taxes?

[0:22:24] TB: Yeah. Probably what happened, because Joe’s employment is new, he left his old employer, is that the withholding was never set up correctly. Kelly, we know the tax bills, there are things that you can do to reduce that, but at the end of the day, you can’t circumvent that, right? Part of the problem that maybe why they’ve amassed more cash recently if we make that assumption is because we weren’t withholding enough to pay the IRS as we were earning those paychecks.

[0:22:56] KRH: It’s an excellent first red flag like, “Oh, there’s more in my paycheck than I expected.” That’s probably the first place I would go is withholding. I do think working with the tax professional can be very helpful. I think the purpose of a projection is to minimize that huge surprise like, there’s going to be things that change. Over the course of a year, an average client household might change a job, which we have here, additional family member, the kids going to college, contributing to the 529 accounts can have an impact on the state tax.

Doing a Roth conversion, at first, I was like, oh, maybe that bill was somebody decided to move a pretax into a taxable account and didn’t have professional advice on what might happen. Lots of things happen over the course of the year. A projection is not going to get to the penny, but it could help eliminate a big unpleasant surprise that would give a couple of months to change the withholding to look at the retirement contributions and get prepared.

[0:24:09] TB: Yeah. Shout out to Sean Richards at YFP Tax. These are some of the things that he’s going to be doing with clients, a projection to get in front of some of those surprises. The tool that we have here gives a rough number based on last year of like, “Hey, at the end of this, Joe and Jane, we think that you’re going to have to pay about $42,000 in taxes. If we’re halfway through the year and you’ve paid around 20, 21,000, we’re good.” Again, very much broad strokes, but definitely would want to work with a tax professional to make sure that those types of surprises are mitigated because even things can happen at the very end of the year. It could be that Jane got a bonus that was higher than she thought and we have to make sure that the right amount is withheld.

The other thing that we see for some of these tax surprises is like, if you do have side hustles, you’re making 1099 income and you’re not paying tax on top of that, it might make sense to withhold more from your W2 paycheck just to soften the blow a little bit. That would be one thing that hopefully we’re not going to replicate in the future and get in front of. The last area guys I want to just focus on is the insurance piece.

We’re not going to get into disability, because I don’t think we have a whole lot of detail on that. But when you look at the life insurance right now, they’re really just showing a life insurance policy through Joe’s employer that’s about 50,000. Jane has 162,000 through her group policy. Obviously, I think with college on the docket, a mortgage, young kids, this is probably insufficient where we probably need to look at policies. Angel, how would you purchase with the client?

[0:25:49] AM: There are a couple of ways, but I mean, I like to use rules of thumb to begin with. I mean, typically I like to look at our clients’ income, make sure they have either 10 times or 15 times insured, but there’s a formula that we use where it’s very need-based. We look at final expenses, the nationwide average. We look at liabilities that are happening, things like mortgages, things like student loans or other liabilities included in that. Definitely, because you have children, we like to throw in maybe about $100,000 up front if something does happen, if somebody predeceases the other, to make sure that your kids go to college and get educated. Then after that, we just throw in a couple of years of income to make sure that there’s a readjustment period and that any savings that you would have made while you were alive go into an account or your spouse can not take a dip in lifestyle.

[0:26:46] TB: Yeah. I think you can definitely use the rules of thumb. I would probably sleep more comfortably at night if they had probably a million dollars each at a minimum between the two of them on top of their group policies. I think you can very much break it down by liabilities, adjustment period, all that stuff. I think some work to be done definitely with that. How about Kelly, if we look at the other part of wealth protection, believe it or not, they’re pretty decent. I think when the twins were born, they went through a lot of the state documents. Anything that you would call out here, maybe outside of just updating documents and just making sure that they’re good, that you would want them to work on from a state plan perspective?

[0:27:26] KRH: I’m excited that they have any documents in place, so that was a huge check mark. I don’t know if it’s just our discomfort with this conversation, it slightly surpasses the life insurance in terms of discomfort, but these documents are very important, especially with two young children, but even with a two-person household like, it just makes things so much easier. I’m amazed at the number of stories, I don’t know if it should relate to us, even though it’s famous people that are in the news, just how difficult it is to get through. I feel like there was just a recent article about another famous person in the news who passed away suddenly unexpectedly and his wife has been navigating for months, even though the state laws are friendly for the spouse.

Always making sure that they’re up to date. Certainly, the guardian is big with having younger children. In this case, they don’t have a trust. That is a conversation with an attorney to see if – oh, actually living trust would be good to add to that. Sorry, I did not see those were not checked off. Yeah, that would probably be the one thing on the list just to make sure if anything is needed there. We are not attorneys at YFP, so we would default to legal expertise, but we can help provide guidance on looking into resources, documents needed, how to have those conversations with each other and with a professional.

[0:29:07] TB: Yeah. I think this is a phased process, right, Kelly? It’s education of, “Here. These are the things you probably need.” Then bugging clients to get them in place. Then probably the last phase is, I think next level is make sure that you have a legacy folder. It’s all in one spot. The people that know that the people, the guardian, the executor know where to find this stuff. But to your point, it’s a tough one for us to really execute, because unless you have some experience with this, because again, not many of us want to think about our premature death or disability. Definitely the will, the power of attorneys for property, for health, the living will, even a basic beneficiary check, just to make sure that all of the things are where they should be. This tool actually has, I think a pretty good list of the different accounts out there and who’s the beneficiary and who’s the contingent beneficiary.

Going through that every couple of years, I think is a good, good practice. Probably, just some little bit of touch up to do much more work on the life insurance side from a wealth protection perspective, but pretty okay from the estate plan. We just need to brush it up and make sure it’s current and well-rounded. We’ll leave it there. Kelly, Angel, thank you so much for joining me for this sixth installment of the case study. Hopefully we changed up a little bit. Hopefully this will be meaningful for our listeners out there and really looking forward to doing the next one with you.

[0:30:37] AM: Thanks for having us.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:30:40] As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information of the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offered to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists, unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 307: Pharmacy Innovators with Dr. Izabella Wentz (The Thyroid Pharmacist)

Posted on May 11, 2023October 5, 2023 by Tim U

Best-selling author and entrepreneur Dr. Izabella Wentz (the Thyroid Pharmacist) joins Dr. Corrie Sanders on this segment of The Pharmacy Innovators sponsored by First Horizon.

About Today’s Guest

Izabella Wentz, PharmD, FASCP, is an internationally acclaimed thyroid specialist and a licensed pharmacist who has dedicated her career to addressing the root causes of autoimmune thyroid disease after being diagnosed with Hashimoto’s thyroiditis in 2009. She is the author of three books on Hashimoto’s: Hashimoto’s Thyroiditis Lifestyle Interventions for Finding and Treating the Root Cause, Hashimoto’s Food Pharmacology, and Hashimoto’s Protocol, which became a #1 New York Times bestseller.

Episode Summary

On this episode of The Pharmacy Innovators segment of the YFP podcast, sponsored by First Horizon, Dr. Izabella Wentz (The Thyroid Pharmacist) joins Dr. Corrie Sanders. Izabella is a pharmacist turned business owner and best-selling author. After being diagnosed with Hashimoto’s disease, Izabella took steps to turn her own questions into an answer for others, founding two companies, and writing three books!

Key Points From the Episode

Izabella shares her path to working in pharmacy.
Life after graduation; Izabella’s first jobs, and how managing her own Hashimoto’s disease influenced her path.
Izabella talks about the process and decisions she made entering into her current business.
How Izabella approached writing and promoting her book.
Reflections on the writing process and the lessons that Izabella has learned along the way.
The practical and financial steps that Izabella took when setting up the business.
Important moments of growth for Izabella’s business with regard to products and personnel.
Izabella lays out her product suite, the different books she has written, and her supplement company.
Understanding the momentum and media coverage that Izabella has generated.
Considering how Izabella’s new book can help pharmacists right now.
The impact that Izabella’s book has had and some of the amazing interactions she has had with readers!
Izabella talks about entrepreneurship as a way to shape her own destiny.
Advice from Izabella for following a passion and a unique path in the world of pharmacy.
How and where to find Izabella online.

Episode Highlights

“I do this full time. I help people with Hashimoto’s take charge of their own health, and help with all kinds of health issues and manage their lifestyle to get them into remission.” — Izabella Wentz [0:09:54]

“I knew that there was a community of people like me who had been struggling with symptoms.” — Izabella Wentz [0:15:37]

“Hashimoto’s is one of the most common autoimmune conditions in the world, and one in five women might get diagnosed at some point in their lifetime.” — Izabella Wentz [0:16:09]

“I always wanted to write a book. Ever since I was little girl, I would make up books in my head.” — Izabella Wentz [0:19:58]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] CS: Hi, guys. Corrie Sanders here, host of the Pharmacy Innovators segment of the YFP Podcast. Pharmacy Innovators is designed for pharmacists navigating the entrepreneurial journey. In this series, we will feature individual founder stories and strategies that will help guide current and aspiring pharmacy entrepreneurs.

Today, we featured Dr. Izabella Wentz, who successfully developed her national brand as the thyroid pharmacist. Dr. Wentz is author of three New York Times or Wall Street Journal best-selling books, and has been featured in places like USA Today, and Men’s Health, and on the Fox News Channel and 700 Club. Our discussion highlights the importance of intentional growth, networking outside of pharmacy, and leveraging experience to find a career that aligns with personal passions. Dr. Wentz recently released her latest book, the Adrenal Transformation Protocol that will be linked in the show notes. Without any further ado, and as our first guest on the Pharmacy Innovators segment, Dr. Izabella Wentz.

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[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:10] CS: Izabella, why don’t we start with a really easy question. Let’s just start with your journey into the profession. Where did you go to pharmacy school and how did you get led into pharmacy in the first place?

[0:02:20] IW: Well, I grew up in Poland and I grew up in a medical clinic. Our residence was actually attached to the medical clinic because my mom was a town doctor. I would go everywhere with my mom. I don’t know, I don’t think they had babysitters back in the day in Poland. I remember I would go to pharmacy runs with her. I stepped into the pharmacy, and the pharmacists were just lovely, and loved looking at all of the medicines on the shelf. My mom told me that pharmacists help people, and they give them medicine to heal them. I thought, I must have been maybe five or six years old, and I thought to myself, “I’d like to be a pharmacist one day, right?”

As I was going through high school, as I was going through trying to figure out what I wanted to do in life, I was really interested in chemistry, and I was really interested in helping people, and I was hoping to maybe find a cure for disorder. I had this amazing teacher in high school, Mr. Airy, it was called public service curriculum class that I joined, and he would give us all kinds of exposures to – if we were interested as a junior in high school to, you know, in like social work, then he would give us an internship at like a clinic, where we’d be cleaning up the kids’ toys. But we thought it was important as high school students. We got to experience some of these amazing, credible professions.

I told him that I was interested in pharmacy, and so he’s like, “Oh, okay. Interesting.” Then a week later, he comes back to me with this fax of some sort, and he’s like, “You have to call this pharmacist and they’re a few towns over from where you are, but they’re looking to hire pharmacy technicians. I had just turned 16, and so I went to this job interview, and I got hired as a pharmacy technician. I don’t know if this still holds true, but I was the youngest person that became a certified pharmacy technician in Illinois at age 17. And I started working in the pharmacy at Walgreens, and loved being a pharmacy technician, and really enjoyed it, and really loved learning about medications. I really loved learning about physiology, and biochemistry, and medications. I went to University of Illinois for undergrad, and majored in pre pharmacy, and then — go [inaudible0:04:36].

Then, after that, I applied to Midwestern University College of Pharmacy in Downers Grove, Illinois, and was fortunate enough to be accepted and was in a beautiful class for four years and got my PharmD in 2006.

[0:04:53] CS: Amazing. Amazing. I love that you had such a great read on the profession so early on in your life. That’s really, really an amazing opportunity that just led you to step right into the path of full force, it sounds like.

[0:05:06] IW: Absolutely, I definitely knew what I was getting myself into, and I was excited, and I really enjoyed it. I was super excited to learn more about medications, and all of the things, right?

[0:05:19] CS: That’s right. The never-ending list of things that have to do with pharmacy practice. So you graduated from the University of Illinois. Then, where did you transition from there? What was your first job in pharmacy? Did you stay in the community setting? Or did you ultimately transition out of that space pretty quickly? What that looked like for you?

[0:05:36] IW: When I graduated, my fiancée at the time, who’s now my husband was accepted into graduate school in Arizona. I ended up working for a company that was doing phone consulting. It was like a hospice, Excel RX, an East Coast-based company where I did that for some time, where I was in a clinical position working with hospice patients, and the nurses, and taking phone orders, making some adjustments, and recommendations based on that. Then I ended up wanting to stay a little bit closer to home. I ended up working at a pharmacy at Target Pharmacy in Scottsdale, Arizona.

After that, my husband ended up getting his MBA. It was a master’s program and we moved. At that point, we moved to Los Angeles, California, and I had had a little bit of trouble getting my license over in California. It’s like such a long process. Oh my goodness, right?

[0:06:37] CS: Right. Notoriously difficult.

[0:06:41] IW: So I worked as an intern at Lorena Pharmacy in East Los Angeles, which was a fabulous experience. They filled just a super, super busy neighborhood pharmacy, where people would walk in and everybody spoke Spanish, and got some really great experience with some prescriptive authority, and kind of collaborative practice agreements with physicians in the community. That was a super fun experience.

Then after that, I, I really wanted to use my clinical skills. We ended up moving again. I wanted to focus on helping people with developmental disabilities because that had been my prior work in my rotations. A big interest of mine in high school, in pharmacy school. I ended up working at a case management company in California in the South Bay Area. I was the clinical consultant pharmacist on staff. I helped social workers to help their patients have the best potential medication outcomes. What that meant is, I was going into group homes a lot of times, and looking at people’s medications, and making sure they weren’t having any adverse drug reactions. I was oftentimes making a lot of recommendations to get people off of drugs or perhaps recommending medications that they should have been on, perhaps recommending some lifestyle changes, looking for alternatives for them. That was a nontraditional route.

Then, I moved back to Chicago for my husband’s job. At that point, I worked for GlaxoSmithKline in pharmaceutical sales, which was a really fantastic experience as well. I got to see a little bit of how the inner workings of that went. Kind of throughout that process, I was actually diagnosed with Hashimoto’s when I was at the consulting pharmacist job. I was going into different pharmacies as part of my sales rep position, and I remember talking to these brilliant pharmacists. Some of them had their own pharmacies, and they were giving me all this information that I hadn’t really learned about at this point. And they were talking about lifestyle medicine and integrative medicine.

I would come and talk to them about asthma and our asthma drugs. They were like, “Did you know that fish oil can be really helpful for inflammatory conditions?” This was really fascinating. They would talk to me about probiotics, and they would talk to me about adrenal dysfunction and adrenal fatigue. I was like, this is really, really cool. My job was to actually call on pharmacies as a pharmaceutical sales rep, and I got to meet so many brilliant pharmacists in the Chicago land area.

Throughout that process, I really got into like the integrative lifestyle functional medicine. I used to drive a lot in pharmaceutical sales. So I started reading Dr. Mark Hyman’s audiobooks, started listening to them while I was driving. I just started utilizing a lot of these functional medicine things, started doing my own research, and I was able to get my Hashimoto’s into remission while working in pharmaceutical sales, and then later in public health. Ended up writing a book about Hashimoto’s and it’s been 10 years since it’s been released. Right now, I do this full time is I help people with Hashimoto’s take charge of their own health, and help all kinds of health issues manage their lifestyle to get them into remission. I talk about using the right medications. I also talk about all the other preventative measures and lifestyle things. The root causes.

Kind of a long resume. We moved a lot because of my husband’s job. I felt like I always had to learn a lot of new things and I had to get really good at networking, and kind of finding the right opportunities in every city that I lived in. We lived in Los Angeles, we lived in the South Bay, we lived in Chicago, we lived in Scottsdale. We now live in Austin, Texas. We’ve lived in Colorado. It was always – you really have to as a pharmacist, if you are looking for these opportunities outside of the traditional route, you really I feel like have to get good at connecting with others, and being able to figure out what your own possibilities might be.

[0:10:55] CS: I think you summed that up so, beautifully about being able to thrive in different environments, and being able to work with different groups of people, or being able to find a situation that you can contribute to, even though it might be different than the practice setting that you were in before. I mean, just based off how many times you moved, and what your career path looks like, before you even got diagnosed with Hashimoto’s, and ultimately got put on a little bit of a different trajectory just goes to show the great utility of a pharmacist. If you’re aware of tuning into your environment and the services that you can provide, how you can be successful as you move through different avenues of pharmacy and different areas of practice. Kudos to you, that’s really, really amazing.

That alone, even if we don’t talk about the rest of your career, I feel like it’s pretty inspiring in and of itself. Let’s talk about – and you’ve done a great job of really talking about this on different platforms, different podcasts, and different interviews in all over your website. Your diagnosis with Hashimoto’s, and what that ultimately looked like and where you were in your career during that time.

I know you mentioned you are working for GSK. At what point did you start really diving into that disease state and thinking about, “Wow, okay. This is something that I want to pick up full time and this is how I’m going to do it”? Can you talk a little bit about kind of that transition, and getting all that information, and really taking control of the market, or doing a market analysis, and in finding where you can provide value?

[0:12:25] IW: Sure. I got diagnosed living in California working in the consultant role. My job was to help people who were not able to advocate for themselves to advocate for their health. A lot of times, I was working with people with developmental disabilities, and people with really complicated health conditions, multiple medications. Some of them had mental health diagnoses as well. Some of them had rare genetic disorders. There wasn’t really a standard of care for them.

A lot of times, I was looking for answers for my clients that weren’t necessarily readily available. I would look for answers on PubMed, I would look at patient forums. I would talk to parents who had children with maybe the same condition or try to get information from the genetic conferences for all of these different conditions to try to figure out like, what can I do for this person that has this rare condition. Can we utilize a different kind of therapy maybe that’s off label use or maybe something, right? Why is this beautiful little girl with cerebral palsy, why is she hitting herself all of a sudden? She’s nonverbal, what can that mean? What could that mean?

A lot of times, I would learn that people who weren’t able to speak up and advocate for themselves were in pain, and that caused them to be aggressive against themselves, aggressive against others. Just throughout that position, I really had to study and learn a lot, and learn how to be a researcher to help advocate for my patients, and clients. Then when I got diagnosed myself, I was like, by that time I had learned, I had seen that not all doctors are created equally, right? Sometimes the answers are there if you dig deeper enough. One client that we had worked with had all these psychiatric issues that somehow vanished when she went on a gluten free diet. She had celiac disease, right? I was just like, “That’s really interesting.” Of course, there’s a lot of research to support that people with celiac disease, can have other manifestations outside of their gut health. These things can be helped by going gluten free.

Then, I just got in this rabbit hole searching for answers for Hashimoto’s. First, I was kind of like paralysis by analysis. I was like, “What can I do better?” I ended up finally being able to kind of take charge when I was working at the GlaxoSmithKline, is when I had – just changed my diet around, and started adding some more things into my routine, learning so much from people that I was meeting along my journey. Then, I kind of ended up working in public health where we were looking at like a root cause analysis to healthcare quality improvement. I was like, “Ah, the root cause. What is the root cause?” I kind of took that approach that we utilized with people for health care, like adverse drug events, and things of that nature. I was like, “How can I do that in my own health?”

I ended up dialing in and figuring out how to get myself really, really well. I didn’t necessarily like do a market analysis, right? So I didn’t do a business plan for Hashimoto’s. But I knew that there was a community of people like me who had been struggling with symptoms. They were Facebook groups that I was a part of, that people had Hashimoto; and they were searching for answers, just like I was. I thought to myself, once I kind of recovered my health, I need to write this down, and I need to get this out into the world so I could help more people.

That’s how I ended up getting started is, really just – I had a huge passion to get the message out to help people, knowing that Hashimoto’s is one of the most common autoimmune conditions in the world, and one in five women might get diagnosed at some point in their lifetime. This is very relevant. Synthroid has been the top prescribed drug like every other year, unless you count opioids. I mean, I wasn’t necessarily worried about people not having it. I know, somebody in my family said, it’s like, “Well, what if you reached everybody in Hashimoto’s?” I’m like, “Well, there’s a lot of people. I’m pretty sure they need my help, right?” “What if you reach every single person with Hashimoto’s?” “Well, that would be amazing if I did, but there’s so many of them.

I’m sure there’s at least a few of them that could benefit from the information. Honestly, it was just passion, and trying to get the message out there that got me started and got me excited about it. But I didn’t quit my job, right? So I wasn’t like, “Okay, I’m going to quit my job, write a book, and just be a full time Hashimoto’s expert.” I use the time after work to work on the book, once I [inaudible 0:17:09]. Then, I had flex time at work. I would do, you know, like a day off every two weeks if I worked an hour extra, right? I utilize that time very wisely to really work on my book. Then, once my book became more popular, and I used a lot of social media to get the word out about it, then I was like, “Okay. How do I replace my salary as a pharmacist?” Then, it was about 33 books a day. I had to sell that many books to replace my salary.

I got to that point, and when I was comfortable that the books were selling, I was able to replace my salary. That’s when I transitioned over to working full time as the thyroid pharmacist, which also coincided with my husband having a new opportunity in Amsterdam, Netherlands. I was not licensed in the Netherlands, nor did I want to become licensed. I was like, “Okay. It’s either this or nothing, right?

[0:18:09] CS: Here we go. Yes. It’s one thing to get licensed in another state, but it’s a whole another thing to try to look at licensure in another country, I’m sure.

[0:18:17] IW: Yes, in a foreign language and I was like – I just – I really need to focus on, this is my passion. I really, really want to help people, I feel like people could really benefit from kind of the dots that I’ve connected along my own journey. So 2014 is when we moved to the Netherlands, and I was doing this full time from that point forward.

[0:18:37] CS: Wow. That is amazing. I just want to highlight. I feel like you’ve said so many important things, just in that journey alone. One about learning that not all doctors are created equal. But you know, not all pharmacy school curriculums are created either and not every curriculum can fit in all the nuances, and intricacies, and off label uses of every single disease. From your own personal experience, really dove into finding that niche, and not even having to do market analysis, because you knew that niche already existed, you understood the need, and you really skipped – I mean, what would be a large amount of business plan steps or steps to create a business just based off your experience alone, which is – I mean, that’s so amazing that you knew that the work you were doing was going to be impactful just right off the bat because you were you were already in that space. Let’s talk a little bit too about when you’re writing your book, and I know you said you were, you were doing it after work and outside of your nine to five.

But what were some of the biggest lessons from that journey, and have you always had a passion for writing. How did you decide that, you know, a book is the best way I’m going to go about. Really creating this resource for my patients, and for people with Hashimoto’s. Why a book, why not a Facebook community, or a different means to engage with an audience? How did that come about?

[0:19:58] IW: I always wanted to write book. Ever since I was little girl, I would like make up books in my head. Fun fact is, my mom is an identical twin, and her daughter, Olivia, who looks like me lives in Poland, and she’s a novelist. She’s published four novels.

[0:20:15] CS: So it’s in your blood?

[0:20:17] IW: You know, they’re like fantasy fiction. The target audience is 17-year-old girls, and we used to be pen pals, right? I’ve always had a passion for writing. I used to write terrible poetry in my teens, and even enjoyed writing projects in undergrad, and in pharmacy school, right? That was always interesting and fun to me. I decided to write a book, because I also had another cousin in Poland that was diagnosed with a condition. I was like, “Okay. If I can write a book, and my mom can translate it, then at least, somebody will have a guide.” Then my husband who started running ultra-marathons, he had written a book about ultra-marathons, and he wrote this book and self-published it. He kind of paved the trail for me, right? Because he figured out how to do the self-publishing, and all of that.

Then I took a course called – what is it called? The Author Within. When I was living in Scottsdale, there’s this lovely gentleman from Sedona, who has crystals, and talks about how you can bird your book. He had a talk at a community college that I went to on my day off of pharmacy school. His method is basically, you just sit down, and you just keep writing, and you can take a little bit of time every day. So you spend an hour a day. If you have writer’s block, then you do editing. If you don’t try editing, then you do researching. But just like, spend an hour a day on this and just work on it.

I started it may be like in 2011. Then, the research, I got diagnosed in 2009. Research took a lot of time, but the book was published in 2013, in May. I was a very cathartic process. It’s like, by the time you’re almost done with your book, you can’t stamp it. It [inaudible 0:22:05] with every four of my books. It’s kind of like – I feel like tort. You know you’re almost done with it, where you just want to be done with and kind of feels like pregnancy when you’re like nine months pregnant, and you’re just like, I just don’t want that baby out, right?

[0:22:21] CS: Yes. Or like musicians, you hear about by the time the final edit is done, and they have to go to a concert, they hate their own music, because they’ve been working on it for so long. I’m sure it’s very, very similar. Izabella, you kind of answered my question. I was going to say, who were mentors in the writing space? How did you kind of navigate your way down that path? It sounds like, you know, it’s in your blood. You had an aunt who was going to help you, and then your husband, of course, had already written a book. But what about business – oh, he hadn’t written a book.

[0:22:50] IW: He had written a book, but my cousin, she actually wrote a book. She wrote books after I wrote my books. I feel like it’s amazing when somebody in your network does something. Because then, it makes it possible for everybody around you, right? I remember telling my friends in the pharmacy space that I was going to write a book about – that I was going to heal my Hashimoto’s, and I was going to write a book about how to heal Hashimoto’s to help other people with Hashimoto’s heal their Hashimoto’s. And I was going to do that full time and not work, and that was going to be my full-time job. They’re like, “Yes, great.”

[0:23:27] CS: Did you have any mentors in business? That’s a whole another thing, right? You’ve got the mentors in the publishing and the writing space. But where did you turn to for guidance, just with business in general, and running your business, what payroll looks like, and how you’re paying yourself, and getting an LLC started, all those business-oriented details. Did you turn to anybody or any resource for guidance in that respect? Or did you just kind of trial by fire, push forward, and see what happens?

[0:23:56] IW: I set up an LLC, like in our local towns. I just went in and I was like, “Okay. I need to have an LLC. My dad has his own business, so I got to ask him a lot of questions. I know in pharmacy school, we had a management class, so that was also very helpful. My husband has a degree in finance, and so that was super helpful, basic budgeting things. A lot of people within the business space, I know a lot of entrepreneurs, like they don’t count their money. I think in pharmacists, like counting is in our blood, right?

It’s like you set up a spreadsheet and you say like, these are your expenses when you have a business and you count everything. We have a line item for like your pharmacy license renewal, you have a subscription for your website, how much does this professional education course you take? You go through, and you make a list of every single thing that you’re spending money on, and then you also have a list of all of your, you know, where’s the money coming from? Is it coming from consulting? Is it coming from books? Is it coming from so on and so forth?

You want to make sure those numbers are balanced every month. Because if not, if you’re spending more money than you’re making, then you have an expensive hobby, not a business, right? You have to manage that. I’m very fortunate enough. My husband has that degree in finance, and he was working for Morningstar at the time. He was busy with work, and he was so helpful to advise me, but I did go through a lot of working with accountants, and setting things up, and the bookkeepers, and so on and so forth. Then, as far as like setting that up, that’s kind of one part of it, right? As far as the marketing and the business end, I do have an amazing mentor for that.

[0:25:41] CS: Yes, that’s amazing. I so respect your story because it sounds like you were really building this business. Then it just happened where you and your husband needed to move, and it was the right time to jump, and all the stars aligned. And you were like, “Okay, here we go.” There’s a component of do or die at that point in your life, but you had spent so much time really building out your niche, and your product, and it just ended up ultimately working for you to be like, “Okay. I’m going to pull the trigger, and here we go, full steam ahead. We’re moving to Amsterdam.”

But yes, all those other components can really bog someone down. I think having an idea, and having either that product, or that service in line is one great thing. But it’s so easy to get caught in the details, or analysis paralysis of really getting that business up and running. Thank you for sharing your resources, and just the importance of having people you can tap on within your own network, and the importance of mentors to help kind of fuzz through all the mess that can get caught in your head during a transition like that.

How has your business scaled over time. Let’s first talk about your books, and then I’ll let you elaborate because I know you’ve got a line of products that are actually in the shelf behind you right now, for those of you that are watching. Her books and her supplements are behind us. Let’s talk about how your business evolved in the products, and then also how it evolved with your team, and what that looks like, and what that timeline looked and felt like for you.

[0:27:03] IW: Sure. In 2013, I was working full time. Then, I launched my book in May of 2013. Then right around October is when I left my job, and started working on my business full time. Part of that was focusing on consulting. I would see clients with Hashimoto’s and help guide them on their own health journey. That is part of that. Then, also the book sales, right? Then, in 2014, I transitioned more to work focusing on the business full time. At that point, I had the book sales, and then I had consultations. I also set up an online dispensary where people could buy supplements for me that I was recommending, rather than having them go on like Amazon or try to – initially, I was like mailing them all out from home to people. That was like, “Okay. That’s just not happening, right?”

I set up an online dispensary that allowed people to buy really high-quality supplements from the online dispensary. Then, I collaborated with two amazing people, Andrea Nakayama and Dr. Alan Christianson. We created an educational summit for people with Hashimoto’s called The Hashimoto’s Institute, where we interviewed a whole bunch of experts. So, that was one other part of the business that I focused on in 2014. At that point, I was a solopreneur with my husband coming to help me after work, because that was a lot of work. I was working really, really long days, and having a lot of success, but a lot of things to manage. I was like, “Ugh.” I was writing my website articles, I was consulting, I was building out this platform, I was answering people’s questions through email, I was answering people on Facebook. It was a lot.

We were fortunate enough that our income was able to replace my husband’s salary at that point. So then in 2015, my husband and I moved to Boulder, Colorado, and he came to work for our business full-time. He was like our first employee and that was really fabulous. It was super fun that we both got to work from home and we got to go hiking with our dog. Then we brought on an online business manager to help us manage a lot of the moving pieces of having an online business. With that, she was able to hire a copywriter to take some of the load off of me to write things, and she was able to hire a designer, so these are all contractors. I made like the worst like art. Not my thing. I’m good at a lot of things. Drawing, and art, and web design, not my thing.

[0:29:49] CS: It’s a different beast. It’s okay.

[0:29:52] IW: We hired somebody to make things look a little bit more pretty at that point. But prior to that, I had screenshots of things, and my drawings and word for our images. We brought on a wonderful team and then some customer service, because I was just getting so many emails with questions, that there was just – I couldn’t keep up, I could answer emails all day long and do nothing else, and I couldn’t get through them all. We ended up creating like a question database, because I realized that a lot of the questions were the same, right? We took some of our top questions, and then created answers, and then we hired people to go and provide those answers.

Then, for whatever people were asking about, I would start writing articles about that. I hadn’t talked about what happens when you lose hair with Hashimoto’s. I ended up writing an article about that, so that my customer service team would have a resource to send to people asking questions. I think the business was just really built on helping people. People are like, what’s the secret? How did you grow so fast? How did you get to have over 400,000 followers on Facebook? How did you grow so quickly? You came out of nowhere. I was like, “I really just focused on every single person that reached out to me. I would try to help them and give them a little bit of an answer. I can’t provide medical advice over email, but you’re asking me these questions. I’ve written an article that will hopefully help you advocate for yourself, that will give you some tools, or here’s a copy of my book, it has pretty much all the information you need if you have Hashimoto’s.”

That was kind of the process in focusing on that. In 2017, we kind of had a big year, where we created a documentary series that reached over 500,000 people, called The Thyroid Secret. We brought in a lot of awareness about thyroid conditions that way, and then we also released my second book, The Hashimoto’s Protocol, and then a supplement line called Rootcology. In addition to that, I have a cookbook, and then I just am releasing my fourth book called The Adrenal Transformation Protocol in April. Then I have supplements, I have books, and then also online programs where I teach people how to take charge of their own health.

The program that I was trained in when I was working in public health was diabetes self-management program. My job was to go into various clinics, and teach practitioners, teach dietitians, or nurses, or pharmacists to run and try to set up these self-management programs, where it would be essentially like an educational group for patients. These empowered patients usually had better outcomes with diabetes, so I’m like, “I want to do the same thing for Hashimoto’s.” So I have Hashimoto’s self-management program that I created where people can take this online, and it’s 12 modules.

They can go through, learn about what lab tests do they need from a functional medicine perspective, how to make sure your thyroid hormones are optimal, how to reduce your thyroid antibodies, what are some potential triggers. It goes over like pretty much everything you need to know to take charge of your own health with Hashimoto’s. The online program is part of our product suite, as well as supplements.

[0:33:15] CS: Which is amazing. I want to highlight two things you said there, and one is about not really having to recreate the wheel, right? You looked at this diabetes model, and you were like, “Wow, this is something that I can apply to my specialty area, and be able to use that kind of structure and really take it, and run with it in a really meaningful way.” Even though it wasn’t necessarily market analysis specifically for Hashimoto’s, it’s great that you were able to take those lessons, and then apply them to your own business to help kind of streamline and guide where you were going. I think that’s really meaningful and that’s a great takeaway.

Then something else you said is, really staying true to your model of helping people. I think that probably opened a lot of doors for you, and dictated where your business was going, because you were like, “I have to answer all these emails. All these people need my help.” Then, having that constant revolving door of feedback of okay, this is what people need, here’s the articles that they’re looking for. These are the questions that they don’t have answered. I think that’s a really great meaningful way to connect with your audience, and then ultimately be able to provide them with something substantial that they can walk away with, after having an interaction with you. That’s so great.

The next question I want to ask is, you’ve gotten so much attention, and you alluded to this, in 2017, having a really big year, but you’ve been very modest throughout this entire conversation with some of the traction that you’ve had. I mean, you’ve been interviewed on the Wall Street Journal, and New York Times, The 700 Club. How did you ultimately tap in to really those big national conglomerations and really tap into this big national momentum? Where did that start, and then how did that evolve over the last few years?

[0:34:50] IW: I would say I’m a super friendly person, and I love meeting new people. So I would go to different conferences, where I would go to the IFM or A4M, and just try to meet different people. Eventually, one of the people that I met, Dr. Alan Christianson introduced me to a mastermind group that was hosted by, and it still is by JJ Virgin called the Mindshare Collaborative. I ended up meeting a lot of amazing, like- minded individuals there. It was a great kind of networking opportunity where I got to meet my agent, Celeste Fine. She’s my book agent.

Then, my first book was self-published, but I was able to get a few book deals. HarperOne was a wonderful partner to work with. Then, of course, the publishers have amazing connections. So then, they were able to get me some media exposure. I think it’s just taking advantage of every opportunity too. Whenever I meet people, I’m always offering to help people. I will tell you that like nine out of 10 times, people don’t follow up. When people are always wanting to help others, and especially people that are maybe, you know, they see somebody that is just getting started. They have experience in that, and they’re happy to share, because sometimes it’s like, you go through the process of discovery, and you’re just like, “Oh, wow. I figured this out, and I’m just happy to share with another person how to do, maybe make it a little less, less of a steep of a learning curve.

Whenever people would offer to help me with something, I would always follow up. I would say like, “Hey, we met here, and you said something about this. You gave me your business card.” Hello, it’s me. Let’s follow up. I think a lot of people don’t do that. But at least in my experience, and I think those are some of the things my business coaches have said, as well, as like, most people don’t follow up on the opportunities that are presented to them.

[0:36:44] CS: Mm-hmm. That’s amazing. Amazing. It goes both ways, right? Especially in such a virtual world, I feel like everything can be connected through LinkedIn, or Facebook. But if you’re reaching out one on one in email, with a specific instance in mind, I feel like that connection just holds so much more weight and carries you even further to be able to advocate for your business. That’s really meaningful. Thank you. Thanks for sharing.

The last thing I want to talk about is the book that you have coming up, so you’re talking primarily to an audience of pharmacists, instead of maybe patients or physicians. Hopefully, this is a group that you really connect with? What do you want to talk about with this book? How can this book help pharmacists and patients? And how can pharmacists use this just in their career? Or how can they share this information with those that they help?

[0:37:31] IW: Sure. My new book, adrenal transformation protocol is focused on the stress response, and burnout, and how to get somebody out of that burnout state. When I was going through pharmacy school, I kind of started learning about all these health conditions, and there was always a lifestyle component. I thought to myself, wouldn’t it be great if I was able to reach a person, and really coach them through having a healthy lifestyle, so I could prevent them having illness, and having to prevent taking medications, right? Or really feeling their best, and thriving with medications.

The book is really focused on a syndrome or condition. It’s not a disease. It’s kind of like what happens when our body gets stuck in survival mode, and people will have really nonspecific symptoms. They’ll be anxious, they’ll be fatigued, they might have brain fog. They’ll feel wired or tired, so they might be – people that are having a hard time falling asleep at night, or they have on a refreshed sleep. These are your people taking Ambien. These are your people taking thyroid meds. These are your people taking antidepressants, anti-anxiety medications, where they don’t have a disease, they don’t have a disorder, they just feel off. Part of that is like, their lifestyle. Their lifestyle is stressful. My protocol focuses on getting them out of that stress response. We utilize this five sending targeted safety signals.

We do things like making sure that they’re connected with a circadian rhythm. Sometimes, taking an Epsom salt bath, and sleeping in a dark room can work better for people, and like they may not need to take Ambien, right? Or people with anxiety issues, sometimes eating more protein and fat throughout their day, that can be really stabilizing for their anxiety. A lot of times people will have these cortisol swings that can make them very, very anxious. That’s kind of the big focus of getting people out of that survival state. If you’re working 12-hour shifts, you’re not sleeping well at night, you’re eating like fast food on the go, and you’re kind of in that work state. There’s a chance that you’re in that survival mode too. And getting something like this worked into your routine, and trying it for your own self is where I would recommend. Then if it works well for you, then consider recommending it your patients.

[0:39:54] CS: I was going to say, you’re probably actually speaking to a lot of pharmacists right now after COVID, or healthcare professionals in general that are living in this constant state of burnout that we hear about. So, you know, I originally asked the question for the patients, but pharmacists too at any other health care professional. This is going to be something that’s so meaningful to them, that they can hopefully take away a lesson or two.

But I will kind of wrap things up now. I’ve just got a couple of quick questions just to ask about entrepreneurship in general, and some fun ways for you to reflect on your career journey so far. What has been the most memorable part or thing that has happened to you as a business owner and why?

[0:40:31] IW: I would say the most amazing things has been, when I meet people that have read my books. It’s usually at target when I have no makeup, and –

[0:40:41] CS: Of course.

[0:40:44] IW: And my son’s screaming for more toys. They will say, “Your book really changed my life. I used to be exhausted and overwhelmed. I had a lot of health issues, and your book changed my life.” That to me is so meaningful, to be able to help somebody from a distance, and meet beautiful people that have been helped by my work. That’s the most meaningful for me.

[0:41:12] CS: Yes. That, I mean, just speaks to who you are as a person too, right? It’s not some accolade. It’s not some interview. It’s not a big publication. It’s like at the root core of your business and what you’re looking for, it’s helping people. That’s so beautiful that you share that. That’s what really inspires you to keep going too. What is your favorite part about being an entrepreneur in general?

[0:41:31] IW: I think it’s kind of creating my own destiny and having the opportunity to be creative, and utilizing my talents to help others. Where I feel like I really love researching, and I love connecting the dots. That wasn’t always appreciated and more like, you know, you work at a corporate chain, and I’m like, “I think it would be really great if we restructured the business, and we offer this kind of service, and we did that.” They’re like, “Yes. I don’t think corporate is going to go for that, right?” That’s the thing. So just having that opportunity to be like, you know what, I really think my community needs to have access to something like this and being able to create it. Like being really customer-focused versus being like, I’m so focused on the corporate –

[0:42:19] CS: A metric whatever it is that the business needs. Yes. Yes. Definitely having that control is – you can change that at the drop of a hat when you’re in charge of your own company. It’s nice to be able to have that kind of power so quickly.

Then the last question I’ve got, one piece of advice for anyone that’s contemplating a non-traditional pharmacy path.

[0:42:38] IW: Huh. I think it’s a great idea to find something that you’re very passionate about, and something that you really, really enjoy. Going in that direction, so perhaps, if you’re like writing, there’s like medical writing opportunities, very traditional ones. But then also like bloggers, so you can become a professional blogger. Some of them make more money than pharmacists, or you can be hired as a writer for professional blog. I know there are blogs that have pharmacist on staff that do their writing for them. Following your passions, and following what kind of sparks for you, I feel like that would be a great direction to go. Because, I mean, if you want it to create your own business, and if you want it to go that direction – people say like, with the pharmacy, you can kind of clock in and clock out. It’s not like that. When you have your own business, you really have to care for it in every aspect of it.

It better be something that you really, truly believe in, and that you’re passionate about. Otherwise, it’s like, if you just kind of focus on like, “Oh, I’m going to do this thing, and it’s going to make me lots of money.” Then you’re like, “Wow, I thought carpet cleaning was going to be the thing. but it turns out that carpet cleaning is just not my thing, or whatever it is.” I feel like pharmacists were very analytical. I think that’s such a huge plus. At the same time, we want to focus on connecting with that other part of our brains too, that helps us realize like, what are we passionate about? Where can we make a difference? And kind of doing the things that maybe other people aren’t willing to do and creating opportunities.

I think one piece of advice I would give is, when I was first approaching agents with my book, a lot of them were like, “Oh, you’re a pharmacist, you’re not a doctor.” I don’t know if we could publish this. And I was like, “Okay, I’m going to self-publish it.” It’s sold over 100,000 copies. It was the first self-published book to make the New York Times, something to that. I was just like, I just need to get this message out, and I need to get people – I already knew the target audience because it was me. So other people might want to do a better analysis than I did. But definitely, if you’re a part of your target audience, that makes things a lot easier. And if you’re passionate about functional medicine, if you have your own transformational story of how it changed your life, or something that changed your life, that you’re willing to get behind, I think that could be a great opportunity, right?

[0:45:13] CS: Yes. That ultimately is what’s going to carry you throughout the tough times in your business. Because, like you said, it’s not a traditional clocking-in and out anymore. You’re in control of your own destiny, which is so great, but you’re also in control of your own destiny when things are bad. So being able to really go back to the core of why you started what you did will have a really meaningful return in the long run. I’m so happy that you took the time to be with us today. You are so well-rounded, and so well-spoken, and have such an amazing amount of experience to speak from. Where can the audience find you if they want to get in touch with you? What’s the best way to do so?

[0:45:47] IW: Sure. My website is thyroidpharmacist.com. My Instagram is @izabellawentzpharmd. Then, my books are available on Amazon, and Barnes & Noble, wherever fine books are sold.

[0:46:00] CS: Amazing. You can be a household face to anyone who’s in the audience today. You could have Dr. Izabella Wentz’s book in your home at any point in time. So we’re excited for your next book to come out. I just want to say thank you again, for taking the time to speak with us. I think this is really going to resonate with a lot of listeners, not only about the unique opportunities, and niches that are available for you to step into as a pharmacist. But you are just a perfect example of how far you can take your success, and how you can span into different areas of business, and still remain successful, and mentally sane, and still be a normal, great human being.

That’s really just excelling, I feel like in every aspect of your career. So thank you again for taking the time to be here. We will leave a lot of those connections to Dr. Wentz’s website and her products in the show notes.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:46:48] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists in the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% downpayment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time homebuyers and has no PMI on a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage.

To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, and to get started with the pre-approval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacists.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacists.com/-loan. As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide, and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog post, and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates publish. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 306: Investing in Yourself

Posted on May 4, 2023May 3, 2023 by Tim U

Erin Albert, PharmD, JD, MBA joins the YFP podcast to discuss why you should approach your career development like you do your financial investments.

About Today’s Guest

Erin L. Albert, PharmD, JD, MBA is Vice President of Pharmacy Relations and Chief Privacy Officer at Mark Cuban Cost Plus Drug Company, PBC. She is both a pharmacist and an attorney. Prior to joining Mark Cuban, she worked in a variety of pharmacy roles, including pharmacy benefits, taught pharmacy students at Butler University College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences for over a decade, served as a director of content for two different ACPE accredited Continuing Pharmacy Education programs, consulted in both fee for service and managed care Medicaid, worked in the pharmaceutical industry in a variety of roles—(including pharmacovigilance, clinical trials, medical affairs, and medical marketing), and in community practice pharmacy as a staff pharmacist and pharmacist-in-charge. She is also a freelance writer and author of over a dozen books, and podcaster (at The Edutainer Podcast.)

Episode Summary

Investing your money is one thing, but people often overlook the fact that they should also be investing in themselves. An article in the Wall Street Journal in late 2022 suggested that “The Best Investment to Make in 2023 Is in Yourself” and that people should treat their own career development like they do their investment portfolios. To discuss, we are joined by Erin Albert, PharmD, JD, MBA. Erin is the vice president of pharmacy relations and the chief privacy officer at Mark Cuban Cost Plus Drug Company. In addition to being a pharmacist, she’s an attorney, author, and podcaster. She explains the concept of investing in oneself by building a portfolio of how we spend our time and money and how she applies this to her own life. She talks about the five categories that make up her professional development portfolio, how often she revisits this framework, and what it looks like to pay herself dividends along the way. She also talks about what she looks for in education and training programs and how her personal brand and network have accelerated the achievement of her goals.

Key Points From the Episode

An introduction to today’s guest Erin Albert, PharmD, JD, MBA and a brief summary of her career journey.
How she came to work at the Mark Cuban Cost Plus Drug Company.
The concept of investing in oneself by building a portfolio of how we spend our time and money.
How Erin applies the strategy of developing a long-term vision to her own life.
Why she revisits this framework or portfolio annually.
How she became comfortable with the uncomfortable and was able to jump at the opportunity to work for Cost Plus Drugs.
What a “jar of awesome” is and how Erin celebrates the small wins.
The value of traditional and non-traditional education and training programs in the pharmacy profession.
Why you should create the course you’re looking for if you cannot find it.
How Erin’s personal brand and network have accelerated her personal and professional goals.

Episode Highlights

“My portfolio looks like a five-way intersection. It’s really your strengths, your values, what you love to do, what the world needs, and what someone will actually pay you to do.” — Erin Albert [0:10:11]

“You have to keep investing in your own personal learning and development so that when you do get that blank piece of paper, you can run with it.” — Erin Albert [0:18:07]

“When I’m looking at different educational opportunities for myself, it’s not so much about formal learning anymore. It’s much more important to me to look at the content and who is teaching it than anything else.” — Erin Albert [0:24:57]

“Whatever your niche is, you should be sharing it because part of the journey in becoming a leader or a thought leader is that you’re sharing what you’re learning along the way.” — Erin Albert [0:30:47]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here. Thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I welcome Erin Albert on to the show to talk about investing in yourself. Erin is the vice president of pharmacy relations and chief privacy officer at Mark Cuban Cost Plus Drugs Company. In addition to being a pharmacist, she’s an attorney, author, and podcaster. Prior to joining Mark Cuban, she worked in a variety of roles, including pharmacy benefits, taught pharmacy students at Butler University College of Pharmacy for over a decade, served as a director of content for two different ACPE-accredited CPE programs, consulted in both fee-for-service and managed care Medicaid, worked in the pharmaceutical industry in a variety of roles, and in community practice as a staff pharmacist and pharmacist in charge.

Before we jump into my interview with Erin, I recognize that many of you may not be aware of the work that the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 280 households in 40-plus days. YFP planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:33] TU: Erin, welcome to the show.

[0:01:34] EA: Thanks, Tim. It’s great to be here.

[0:01:35] TU: Well, it’s been a long time in the making. I feel like I’ve been following you on social media, LinkedIn in particular for some time. I feel like, I know you at this point in time, which is weird. I guess social media can have that effect, right?

[0:01:46] EA: Yeah. I think it’s a good effect, though, right? Like, I love podcasting and listening to you as well. A lot of our fellow pharmacist podcasters are doing their thing now, which I think is great. I think we need to have more voices on pharmacy and in pharmacy and in healthcare, because let’s be honest, there’s a lot of work to be done.

[0:02:06] TU: That’s right. Well, speaking of work to be done, today we’re going to be talking about investing in yourself. A different take than the normal Xs and Os of the financial plan. Erin, before we dig into that topic, give us a brief summary of your career journey, including the current role that you have as the vice president of pharmacy relations, chief pharmacy officer at Mark Cuban Cost Plus Drugs.

[0:02:29] EA: Yeah. Thanks again, Tim, for having me on the show. My career started right here in Indiana, where I’ve gone full circle and ended back up at. I went to Butler University College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences. I won’t say when because now I’m too old to own up to that. I really always loved chemistry and science and was one of those nerdy little kids that geeked out going to the library. I played some musical instruments in high school, I always had my paws on a lot of different things in a good way.

When I chose pharmacy, I knew that I was staying in-state. It was between that other pharmacy school, Purdue and Butler. Now we have Manchester here in Indiana. I chose Butler. I loved pharmacy but ran screaming from the building after five years. I had had enough education thinking, “Oh, I’m going to go launch my career and I’m never going to go back to school again.” Well, that was not what happened in a good way, in a good way, right?

My life took me out to the Philadelphia area back in the late 90s when pharmaceutical manufacturers were having their heyday out there. Had a lot of great experiences on the pharma manufacturer side, working in a lot of roles, but came home here to Indiana, continued to do that in industry. Then somehow, I wound up in academia, taught at Butler University again, right back where I started in the school, the College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences. I did that for 10 years. I had the hair-brained idea to go to law school at night, also went to business school at night.

All my graduate programs were always when I was a working professional, doing it part-time, either in the evenings or on the side. Lo and behold, I was working for a broker advisor here in Indiana called Apex Benefits, and shout out to them. I love them. They’re still all my peeps. At the time, one of the drug manufacturers was pulling their copay coupon at the beginning of a new plan year. I reached out to, lo and behold, Mark Cuban Cost Plus Drugs, because they had an incredible price on Imatnib. Imatinib as you know is chemo. It is not low cost.

I was trying to figure out a way to get our patients access to that drug at that low cost. Suddenly, they reached out, the CEO and I had a chat, and all of a sudden, I had a job offer. I do believe that somehow Kismet played a role in all this because each and every day I get the opportunity and the honor to use my pharmacist brain, my lawyer brain, and my MBA marketing brain in a variety of different things that I’m doing here at Mark Cuban Cost Plus. I’ve been here almost a year now, although it feels time is a relative thing post-pandemic.

Now I serve as our vice president of pharmacy relations and chief privacy officer here at Mark Cuban. My colleagues are fantastic and phenomenal to work with. I work now for the smartest individual, Alex Oshmyansky that I think I’ve ever had the honor to work for. He’s an MD Ph.D. Oxford guy. He’s got a Ph.D. in math, super brilliant. Then of course we can’t leave out Mr. Cuban. He’s been great to work with, as well. He is very entrenched in the business, by the way, in a very good way, because pharmacy benefits are not easy to understand, but he’s a lifelong learner too. I’ll just put it out there that he’s very inspirational because he’s always asking questions and he always wants to know what the ramifications of everything are in our daily operations.

[0:06:38] TU: I got that vibe. I’m an avid Shark Tank watcher, right? As I suspect many people may be familiar with Mark Cuban through that or through his ownership of a variety of companies, including professional sports teams. I’ve gotten that vibe in watching Shark Tank of that he is constantly asking questions. He’s always wanting to learn, always wanting to grow. I think that’s a sign of not only a good business owner, but that’s a sign of someone who’s looking to stretch themselves, understand more. Of course, as we can have more information, we can make better decisions along the way. It’s really neat, Erin, to see you as a pharmacist representing our profession inside of an organization like Mark Cuban Cost Plus is obviously is having, I think, a positive disruption on our healthcare system. Exciting to see that evolution.

We’ll talk about some of the behaviors around professional development the educational path you’ve taken, the networking that you’ve obviously done, which has led to an opportunity like this. We talk often on the show about where to put your investments, but we haven’t yet discussed this concept of investing in yourself. To guide this conversation, Erin, you shared an article from the Wall Street Journal back at the end of 2022 that we’ll link to in the show notes, that article is called “The Best Investment to Make is in Yourself in 2023”.

To set the stage for our conversation, let me read an excerpt from the article and then I’m going to get your input. That expert excerpt is this, “Just as we buy stocks and bonds to generate financial growth, we can build a portfolio of how we spend our time and money now that pays off in the months and years ahead.” Erin, I like to think that I’ve been pretty intentional about professional development, but I honestly can’t say I’ve been as intentional and as structured about it as I have been in building my own long-term investing plan. This feels to me like a big mindset shift and a reframe. Would you agree?

[0:08:36] EA: I do. I really love that article. We like to focus on our investment portfolios. Now I think more than any other time, maybe. Inflation has gone up or looking to think about retirement in some instances, there’s been huge dips in the stock market, but that whole approach to looking at your bank and your money and dollars in the bank versus treating your own career development like that, having a portfolio, having different educational opportunities, networking with other individuals, and treating it much like you would your own investment portfolio, I think is a really great parallel to what we all should be doing as professionals inside particularly healthcare and pharmacy.

[0:09:25] TU: Yeah. I think as I read that article, Erin, this concept of setting a long-term vision seems to be a really important piece to then be able to inform the steps that we’re going to take today, right, and in the short-term to get that long-term vision. They talk about in the article some big questions that we want to be thinking about that inform that long-term vision and lead to those shorter-term action items. Questions like, what is my purpose? What is my passion? What am I doing this for? As I’ve mentioned already, I see you as someone who’s very intentional about goal-setting and taking action. Share with us about how you apply this strategy of developing a long-term vision with short-term actionable steps. How do you implement this in your own life and your own professional development?

[0:10:11] EA: Sure. My portfolio looks like, almost a five-way intersection. It’s really your strengths, your values, what you love to do, what the world needs, and what someone will actually pay you to do. Okay. That’s the framework for my own portfolio. I call it an ikigai or the French call it a raison d’etre. It’s your reason for being, right? That to me is the long-term legacy game that we’re all trying to play, I think.

We all are incumbent upon ourselves to find out what that meaning is for each of us individually. When I coach students or other professionals, one of the first questions I ask them is, what are your values? What do you personally value and hold above all other values? I think that has to be the starting point for unearthing whatever your ikigai or your raison d’etre is. Understanding what is personally important and valuable to you.

One of my values, my personal values, is working on the frontiers of knowledge, new knowledge. I am a huge junkie of the future of whatever, XYZ, constantly looking ahead, looking at the best hits, and figuring out how to pull those best ideas into today to make the future happen today. Values are super important. I think the other piece that, frankly, a lot of pharmacy schools, I think, have done a better job in the last few years is assessing your personal strengths, knowing what those are. There are some great tools out there like strengths finder, for example, where you can figure out what your strengths are.

What you love to do like my favorite question there is thinking about what was the last day that time went by and you didn’t even notice? Like what were you doing that day? Because those are hints and clues for you to figure out what your purpose in life is. Also, things like, what the world needs. Right now we’re constantly trying to fill gaps. What are those gaps? What does the world still need? Let’s be honest, particularly in healthcare, there’s a lot of opportunity there.

Then what somebody will actually pay you to do? I think, is important too. Because otherwise, it’s a hobby. It’s something that maybe you’re personally interested in, curious about. I just read a recent book called Unicorn Space that talks about this element as well. These might not be in your day job, but by having this curiosity about different things, that actually can be another mechanism by which you invest in your lifelong learning portfolio and drag better ideas for your curiosities into your day job as well. That’s the framework that I utilize when I look at my own purpose or calling.

[0:13:13] TU: I love that, Erin. I love the visual of the intersection of those things, right? I think so often when I talk with folks, you may see people, “Hey, I’m making a great income, but I’m feeling that dissatisfaction, because of these other things are missing.” Right? That you mentioned as you think about values and some of the impacts forth or we don’t want it to be a hobby. I might be doing those other things, but it’s not paying the bills or it’s not valued in the way that it’s being compensated, so there’s that rub there.

The intersection of these things coming together is beautiful. One of the things I used to share often with students when I was doing some career development is what you alluded to is, “Hey, what are you doing when you’re spending time and you don’t realize time is passing? What are those things or that you could spend a day, a week, whatever, working on a project and you feel more energized through that work”, right? Then on the other side of the coin, what are those things that you do in a day? obviously, all jobs, all work are going to come with some element, some percentage of these things, but that time can be even limited, but it drains you, right? It pulls the energy away from you.

Being aware and observing those things, aligning those with your strengths, understanding what the market value isn’t going to pay for. I think the intersection of those is a really powerful visual. My follow-up to you with that is how often do you revisit that framework? What is the process for you to look at that portfolio? Is it something you do in an annual goal setting to track your progress to rebalance, if you will, right? If we’re off track. How do you evaluate your progress towards achieving that intersection?

[0:14:50] EA: Yeah. I think that’s twofold for me. The first point is annually. I know it’s cheesy to set goals or basé to do that this year or any year for that matter, especially post-pandemic, right? Because we never know what tomorrow is going to bring. But still, I need that order and structure in my life, so usually, the month of December preceding the new year, I really sit down, put pen to paper, and start thinking about what do I really want to bring to my portfolio, my learning portfolio, my life portfolio in the coming year?

The other point in time when I do it is when I change jobs and things derail in a good way, right? Because you weren’t expecting necessarily that great opportunity to come your way, but if you’re offered a seat on a rocket ship, you get on and then you start asking questions later. You don’t ponder things and let the great opportunity pass you by. I mean, with Cost Plus Drugs, I didn’t even have a job description when I rolled in. I basically got keys to the building and they told me to write my job description and it’s changed a couple of times since I’ve been here.

I think any time you have your life’s work or whatever is really, truly important to you at the time and there’s been radical change, I think that’s always a good time to do a little bit of janitorial, if you will, on your portfolio to make sure that you’re still headed in the right direction for you based upon your new situation.

[0:16:22] TU: Erin, the example you just gave of coming to Cost Plus, not having a job description, getting the keys, you figure it out as you go. I think for many folks listening, they may not be comfortable with that type of an opportunity, that type of an unknown. Your mindset around that is really interesting to me. Where do you attribute? How have you become comfortable with the uncomfortable that you say yes to an opportunity like that, knowing that there’s certainly going to be some bumps along the way?

[0:16:49] EA: That’s a really good question. I think where your roots came from like, I grew up, I think we were talking off camera a little bit about or before we recorded about the fact that we grew up in entrepreneurial households. I mean, I grew up in an entrepreneurial household. I watch Shark Tank. I’m a junkie when it comes to Shark Tank like I taught a Shark Tank, literally at Butler University. We had an entrepreneurship in healthcare and life sciences course and their final exam in that course was to do a Shark Tank.

I am a controlled or conservative risk taker. For me, I think it’s empowering to be able to have a blank piece of paper or a blank slate to create and craft a job description or even your portfolio in life, what you really want to accomplish, what you’re here to do, because we’re all here for a reason. I know that sounds really woo-woo, but it’s true. For me, I love to just get keys to the building and I’ll figure it out one way or the other, but I get that sometimes people can be a little more reserved or conservative and they want the checklist, right? I think post-pandemic, if nothing else, it’s taught us that sometimes there isn’t a roadmap. There isn’t a checklist. You have to keep investing in your own personal learning and development so when you do get that blank piece of paper, you can run with it.

[0:18:17] TU: Yeah. I would encourage any listeners out there that are managers, supervisors, ask yourself, what could I be doing to create that culture that allows people to figure it out and to get in the messy middle? That’s one of our core values, Erin, at YFP, is that we really want to have the team comfortable with taking some calculated risks, right? Obviously, there’s discernment there. Sometimes that means we get it right. Sometimes that means, we don’t and permission to fail and to fail quickly and to get back up on our feet and move forward.

I think anything we can do from a management leadership perspective to foster that culture and to role model that is going to allow us to hopefully make the strides that we need to make in pharmacy, but also in healthcare at large. I love that. I love the concept of getting comfortable with the uncomfortable. I want to shift gears. One of the things Erin, this article talks about is how valuable it can be to pay ourselves dividends along the way, as a way to really start to reap some of the rewards and to keep the motivation going.

Admittedly, I am terrible at this. I’m someone who will set big audacious goals and I’m all in grinding it out, waiting to celebrate until the finish line is achieved. The problem with this approach is that we know that the feelings associated with achievement, right, with getting to that “finish line” are short-lived. We can be spending a significant amount of time grinding and grinding some more only to have that feeling of accomplishment be fleeting right in that moment. One, I’d love to hear your thoughts on that and what strategies you implement for these type of micro rewards along the way, these dividends.

[0:20:02] EA: I call that the hedonic treadmill, right, like especially pharmacists. There’s something about us that we love to set big, hairy, audacious goals. Then when we get there, it’s like, what’s next? For me, especially later in my career, I started focusing on the tiny wins, because really, that’s what it’s all about at the end of the day. You get to that big picture, final countdown, whether it’s you’re graduating from pharmacy school or you’re getting that new cool job. It’s not about the big wins. It’s about the tiny wins.

I’ll try to look visually around my day, mentally around my day, every day to sit down and think about, okay, what was the tiny win of the day? What was the best part of my day? Then even keeping what I call a “jar of awesome” around. I have a little 365-day calendar, each day I pull the tag off, and then whatever that was, that particular day, I’ll write it on that calendar posting and I’ll jam it in my “jar of awesome”. Then at the end of the year, I go back and look at it and say, “Wow.” Especially on those bad days, right? When you’re really struggling to find that tiny win, you have something to go back to and say, “Okay, it’s not really that bad after all.”

We’ve had a tremendous amount of tiny wins along the way, XYZ year, so it’s really about the little things. It’s not about the big picture stuff. I know we all need to have those large goals, those lofty goals to get to, but don’t forget the tiny wins along the way as well, because I think they’re equally, if not more important.

[0:21:49] TU: Yeah. I really like that. What I’m hearing there is some type of process or system or activity behavior, whatever we want to call it, that really captures those wins, captures the things that we’re grateful for in the moment because it’s easy to lose sight of those. One I started doing recently and shout out to my partner, Tim Baker, who gave me this idea is, I’ll do a morning gratitude exercise five minutes, micro things of the day that I’m grateful for from the day before. I’ve started organizing those by day. I can see it by year. For example, on March 15th, I can see it 2023, 2022, and the goal would be over time you can look back several years. That has been really powerful.

Even things just one year ago, where it’s like, “Ah, I totally lost sight of that.” Like in that day, that was such an important win. I find it to be very grounding for exactly what you’re saying enjoying those small wins and join the day in the moments and being present in that. Resisting against that urge to be focusing on these massive goals that may or may not come in the future. That to be a fleeting reward when it does come. love what you had to share there.

I want to pick your brain on disruption and education. You and I both were former academics. I feel like we’re academics at heart always, but considering the disruption we’re seeing in education with expanded accessibility at a lower cost, some really referring to things like the massive online open courses. It feels like we’re stuck between a traditional model that values the more structured training programs defined by degrees and credentials, right, think PharmD, residency board certification.

All the while, those structured programs may not be as customizable, affordable, or relatable as other learning opportunities that are coming out there. As someone, Erin, who holds four degrees, if I follow the journey correctly, Bachelors, PharmD, MBA, JD, but also values ongoing professional development and learning, right? Books, podcasts, courses, etc. what do you see as the future of the value of traditional and non-traditional education and training programs in our profession?

[0:24:01] EA: Yeah. I think the MOOCs to your point earlier are a wonderful opportunity to dip your toe into the pool before you go to the deep end with another degree. Okay. I see it as a pool, right? You’ve got all these different lanes in the pool that you can dip into. You can start with a certificate, you could start with an online course, you could talk to your mentor and get their wise advice or sage advice. You should, by the way, have multiple mentors, not just one.

You could formalize that education and go get a graduate degree if you wanted to, or even shift and get a different bachelor’s degree. You could even go get your Ph.D. if you wanted to. I think the range of opportunity has never been better historically than it is right now. I think we have to seize that opportunity. When I’m looking at different educational opportunities for myself, I got to tell you, it’s not so much about formal learning anymore. It’s much more important to me to look at the content and who is teaching it than anything else. I will pay gobs of money myself. I will invest in myself. No questions asked, if it’s content that I cannot get from other sources and the person or the thought leader that’s teaching that content is truly a leader in their arena.

Whether that’s pharmacy benefits, that’s a certain therapeutic area like oncology or whatever the case may be, business ownership as an independent pharmacist. We now have more choices than ever. Sometimes that’s a little bit overwhelming, right? That’s why, again, you want to tap back into your mentor network, and your mentors can be peers, too, by the way, which I think is really important and talk to your network and find out, “Hey, well, that’s really the best program out there in XYZ and go from there?” I think it’s actually a beautiful thing, a great thing that we have a range of different types of ways that we can learn, both live and online or on demand.

[0:26:14] TU: Yeah. I think that’s a great point, right? The access information is greater than it’s ever been, which can be a blessing and a curse. I see it as a blessing, but it can be so overwhelming, whether it’s things we just pick up and read, whether it’s taking online courses, whether it’s more formal certifications or academic degree programs. There are so many different pathways that are out there. I think having a system, having a filter, whether that’s mentors, whether that’s going back to the things you mentioned earlier in the intersection of those five different areas and trying to figure out where do these align and fit in, do they align or do they fit in? But really asking yourself those questions before you make that investment of time and money, right?

I think that’s the thing I was encouraging people is you’re thinking about, especially a traditional degree, right? MBA, MS, whatever, post-PharmD like, what’s the return on investment of both your time and money? I think with so many options that are now out there having some type of criteria, some type of framework, some type of funnel to be able to really filter those opportunities.

[0:27:17] EA: Exactly. I use that mindset when I published and wrote all my books, Toni Morrison, who’s another famous author, said, “If I’m trying to find a book that I want to read and it’s not available, that’s the hint from the universe that I need to write it.” An example sometimes means you have to create the course. In that case, I’ll give you a recent example as immediate past president of the American Society for Pharmacy Law, one of the things that I noticed was as a mid-career professional, there is nothing out there for people like me who are passionate about the intersection of pharmacy and law and leveling up on their own leadership.

We decided to create the diplomat for the American Society for Pharmacy Law program. It is a one-year longitudinal mentor-mentee program that lets you go down a rabbit hole and study an area of pharmacy and law that you are personally passionate about. You present it at the subsequent annual meeting. You get paired with a mentor. You have a leadership seminar series. All those components have swirled together to bring the very best professionals in the realms of pharmacy and law together, to bring along the next generation of leaders in that arena that are mid-career right now.

That didn’t exist before, but darn it, I wanted it like, I wanted to be part of that. We decided to build it. Now we’re getting ready to launch our second class at our next annual meeting coming this fall. We’ve already got a lot of interest in it. Sometimes I have to say as much as I hate to say it because this extra work, if you’re looking around for something and you cannot find it, maybe that’s the sign that you need to create it. Then, in turn, that’s going to wrap right into your own learning portfolio.

[0:29:08] TU: It’s a great example, great example. Since we’re talking about professional development, I want to tap in your expertise as someone that I view as a role model in personal branding and networking. I think my observation, Erin, is that you have intentionally yet authentically built a personal brand that has obviously led to networking and other opportunities. My question for you is, how has your ability to develop the personal brand that you’ve built to develop the network that you’ve built? How has that accelerated your personal and professional goals?

[0:29:43] EA: I mean, that’s everything. I think one of the first touch points that I made with Mark Cuban Cost Plus, I didn’t talk about this earlier, but Mr. Cuban himself was being interviewed by one of the news editors at LinkedIn on a live stream, now that LinkedIn has live stream video. They took one of my posts that I compared and contrasted drug prices that are out in the internet, Cost Plus, and some other sites and integrated it into the live stream. I had no idea that they were going to do that. I was shocked.

I still don’t know how they figured that out, but I think that was definitely part of the conversation that led me to joining Mark Cuban Cost Plus, as well. I guess, the best advice there is number one, you can’t fake it. If you’re passionate about something, you should be sharing it with the rest of the world, if you can. My world is nerdy. I do pharmacy benefits, pharmacy law and career development.

Those are my three niches, but whatever your niche is, you should be sharing it, because part of the journey in becoming a leader or a thought leader in that arena is that you’re sharing what you’re learning along the way. There’s always that opportunity, I think. It’s super important to share that. I mean, that’s part of being a good learner. In academia, as you know, we always say, see one, do one, teach one, right?

[0:31:11] TU: Yup. Absolutely. What a tangible example of personal branding leading to an opportunity. That’s a really neat one. Erin, this has been awesome. I love this topic, investing in yourself. Your passion comes through the microphone, certainly. I’m excited to get this out to our community to be thinking about how does investing in yourself accelerate your personal goals? I do think there’s a return on investment financially, as well. There’s a connection there to the financial plan. As we wrap up, though, where’s the best place for our listeners to go to connect with you and to learn more about the work that you’re doing?

[0:31:46] EA: Sure. LinkedIn is a great place. Right now, at Cost Plus Drugs, we’re very focused on what we’re calling The Team Cuban Benefits Card and the Cuban Pharmacy Affiliate Network. I’m excited to partner with independent pharmacies across the US, right now to work with them into Brick-and-Mortar pharmacies and get our amazing pricing into their pharmacies, yet offered them a solution where they’re getting paid and reimbursed for their awesome services and our patients can get their prescription drugs closer to home. If you’re an independent pharmacist, I personally love to talk to you. Please connect to me on LinkedIn.

Every Saturday morning that I am home, I also do a quick 20-minute live stream on LinkedIn. That’s audio only. You do not want to see this camera face. This face is not ready for camera at 9 am, Eastern time on Saturday mornings, but I do, do a quick update there on pharmacy benefits, pharmacy law and career development for the week incoming. Then I do publish a newsletter around that after we have our little morning coffee clutch and chat. If you want to check me out over there, I do that live stream again every Saturday morning at 9 am, Eastern.

[0:33:04] TU: Awesome. Great stuff. Hopefully, you all connect and follow Erin on LinkedIn. We’ll link to that in the show notes. Erin, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for taking the time. I appreciate it.

[0:33:12] EA: Yeah. Best of success to you, Tim. I know it’s hard to leave Academia where it’s seemingly “stable” to go do your own thing, but you’re brave doing it, and kudos to you for that.

[0:33:23] TU: Thank you, so much. Appreciate that.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:33:25] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show has provided you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archive, newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 305: Understanding Annuities: A Primer for Pharmacists

Posted on April 27, 2023April 26, 2023 by Tim U

In over 300 episodes of Your Financial Pharmacist, we haven’t covered much about annuities and today, Tim Baker, CFP®, RICP®, RLP® joins Tim Ulbrich, PharmD to do just that. On this episode, sponsored by First Horizon, you’ll hear all about what annuities are, the main types and how they differ, common misunderstandings, fees associated with annuities, and how they can assist with building a retirement paycheck through the flooring strategy.

Episode Summary

This week on the YFP Podcast, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, is joined by YFP Co-Founder & Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, CFP®, RLP®, RICP®, to discuss annuities.

Tim Baker explains what an annuity is, the main types of annuities, key terms and concepts to understand when evaluating annuity options, fees associated with annuities, and how annuities fit into the broader retirement income planning strategy.

During the second half of the episode, Tim and Tim discuss how annuities may fit into the flooring strategy of retirement income planning.

Key Points From the Episode

How common annuities are and Tim Baker’s high-level thoughts around them.
The importance of viewing annuities from the lens of building a retirement paycheck.
Tim Baker explains longevity risk and how annuities address it.
What exactly an annuity is and the two phases of an annuity.
Tim Baker delves into the main types of annuities and how they differ in structure and features.
How the appeal for annuities has increased due to human psychology.
Including annuities as part of retirement income strategy, the four ‘Ls’, and the flooring approach.
Why the psychological aspect of annuities is underrated.
The biggest con of annuities: fees.
How the tax treatment of annuities differs depending on the type of annuity and how it’s funded.

Episode Highlights

“We kind of shy away from [annuities] as a tool to be used in retirement.” — @TimBakerCFP [0:05:34]

“An annuity refers to an insurance contract where you give the insurance company money, typically in the form of a premium, and they invest the funds – with the idea of paying you back an income stream in the future.” — @TimBakerCFP [0:09:16]

“I’m less worried about legacy and I’m more worried about can my money sustain me?” — @TimBakerCFP [0:29:19]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here. And thank you for listening to the YFP podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, YFP co-founder and Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, joins me to talk about annuities. During the show, we discuss what an annuity is. The main types of products available. Key terms and concepts to understand when evaluating annuity options. How the fees are associated with these products? And how annuities may fit into the broader retirement income strategy?

Before we jump into today’s topic of annuities, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what our team of certified financial planners do working one-on-one with more than 280 households in 40+ plus states.

Our team offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized to the pharmacy professional. Whether you’re a new practitioner, in the middle of your career, or nearing retirement, we have you covered. To learn more about how our financial planning services can help you live a rich life today while planning for the future, book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether or not YFP planning, financial planning services, are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

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To check out the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to start the pre-approved process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[EPISODE]

[00:02:30] TU: Tim Baker, welcome back. What’s the good news?

[00:02:33] TB: Not much, Tim. Just kind of hopefully whining tax season down here shortly. The team is frantically at work crunching through tax returns. That’s really the theme of the next few weeks here. Excited for the deadline to be here and gone.

[00:02:49] TU: Yeah, shout out to the tax team. As you mentioned, Tim, hard at work. This season is intense. And we’re really looking forward to doing more year-round tax planning with these individuals. And if they’re listening, which I suspect the tax team is not, since they’re in the weeds right now, but grateful for all their contributions and the value they’re providing to clients and others in the YFP community. So, huge shout out to them.

Tim, annuities. It’s hard to believe in 300+ episodes now the podcasts that we’ve done that we’ve really covered very little around annuities. I think we had an Ask a YFP CPF a while back that we touched on it briefly.

And I’ll be honest, Tim, this is an area of the plan that I underestimated just how big it can be both in the volume of people that are purchasing annuities, the questions that are around the annuities, and how they can build under the retirement plan.

One report from LIMRA was at over $310 billion dollars’ worth of annuities that were sold in 2022. And that was a 22% increase from 2021. Just a big area of the plan. I’m curious to hear at a high level your thoughts around annuities and how common they are as you hear those statistics. And maybe just as surprised as I am that we haven’t dabbled into this more yet.

[00:04:07] TB: I think it depends who you talk to. I talk to some advisors that use them as part of their practice. I talk to a lot of advisors that I trust and that have looked on them that don’t necessarily use it as part of their practice. I think it’s going to be dependent on kind of the market and where we’re at.

Annuities, kind of like long-term care insurance, Tim, kind of get a little bit of a bad rap. And rightfully so, in some instances. And we’ll kind of talk through that. But I think a lot of people, at the end of the day, it’s an insurance product at heart. But you can intertwine in investment products. That’s typically what a variable annuity is or like an index annuity is with this.

But just like insurance, any other type of insurance, we don’t really like to give up our money in the form of a premium for coverage that we may or may not need. I think annuity is a little bit of a different breed. But there seems to be, again, some negative connotations around annuities mainly because like I got to give up my money for something that’s kind of nebulous in exchange.

And I think for those reasons, it’s kind of more psychological that people are like, “Hmm, I’m going to stick to I have a million. It’s a 4% withdrawal rate. It’s $40,000 a year. Couple that with social security. I’m good.”

And for a lot of reasons, maybe not so much. That 4% rule, I think a lot of people are looking at that and saying, “Hmm, going forward, I don’t know. That’s not necessarily the best rule of thumb to be using.”

I think for all of those reasons and probably others that I didn’t mention, that we kind of shy away from this as a tool to be used in retirement. And again, I think that – I think everything should be on the table more or less. And biases aside to see, okay, what are the goals of the client? What’s the balance sheet look like? And then move from there.

[00:05:51] TU: Yeah. And Tim, before we even jump into what is an annuity at a high level, what are the types of products that are out there? Advantages? Disadvantages. We’re going to get into that in more detail. But I think it’s important to take a step back and view this from the lens of building a retirement paycheque, right?

We talked about that previously on the podcast. We’ll link to that episode in the show notes. But here, what we’re talking about is a sliver, apart, perhaps an important part, annuities, that are a broader part of how we’re going to build a retirement income stream. How we’re going to replace what was our paycheque and build that retirement income? I think it’s important that we lay that framework as we get into the weeds on the annuities.

[00:06:34] TB: Yeah. I mean, I think, at the end of the day, when we are thinking about a financial plan, a lot of roads point to, “Can I accumulate enough assets to then not have to rely on a pay cheque and can kind of live my life?” And this topic is – a lot of us, we focus more so just on the accumulation phase and like save and invest, save and invest. But then when we get to the end of it, it’s like, “All right, how do we actually turn this into a sustainable paycheque for the rest of our lives with that timeline being unknown?” And that’s one of the things that annuities address. Because it’s unknown, the payment for a lot of these annuities can go out to the rest of your life. It addresses some longevity risk.

It’s a crucial part of this discussion. And that’s why we’ve been big proponents of Social Security claiming strategy. It’s one of the most important decisions that you make in retirement. And this type of discussion around annuities and longevity risk is right there.

I think it’s something that we should definitely bring to the top of the fold and make sure that we are situating this in a way that it goes back to kind of that retirement paycheck. And how does this all fit together?

[00:07:49] TB: Yeah. And speaking of longevity risk, I pitched a question out there on LinkedIn to say, “Hey, Tim and I are going to be talking about annuities on the podcast. What questions do you have? Would love to hear from the community.” And one of the things that Bryce on LinkedIn said, to your point about longevity risk, is frame it as like the opposite of life insurance. You’re ensuring the risk of living longer than expected instead of shorter than expected. Tim, what are your thoughts on that viewpoint? And I guess, as a part of that, just what is an annuity and how does it work?

[00:08:17] TU: I think it’s dead on. I think what Bryce said is when you think about longevity risk, that’s the risk that people are living longer than they expect, right? I can go on to socialsecurity.gov, put in my gender and my birthday, and says, “Okay, based on all of the data that they’ve collected since the beginning of time or for as long social security has been around, you’re going to live to 88.6-years-old.”

But, Tim, I’m not going out like that. I’m going to be here until 95, 105. I’m going to be here for a while. That means that I potentially have 10, 15, maybe 20 years that, according to my plan – again, we as planners, we go out a little bit further to kind of model that. But think about having a decade worth of expenses. Probably a lot of medical expenses that aren’t accounted for. That’s what longevity risk is. That, to me, is one of the things that an annuity addresses.

An annuity refers to an insurance contract where you give the insurance company money, typically in the form of a premium, and they invest the funds either very, very conservatively or could be more aggressively with the idea of paying you back an income stream in the future. That could be a fixed income stream. That could be a variable income stream. There’re so many different flavors of ice cream when it comes to annuities, Tim. That’s the basic concept.

Typically, you really have two phases in annuity. You have what’s called the accumulation phase, where this is the annuities being funded. And it’s before the payouts begin. Any money in the annuity kind of grows on a tax-deferred basis during this stage. And then the second phase is the annuitization phase, where you say, “Hey, either I have the option or per the contract that I set up five years ago. It was a deferred annuity for five years.” Now these payments start and they are X based on the underlying performance of the investments or just what you agreed to five years ago. Again, there’re lots of different types of variation here. But essentially, that’s it.

It’s kind of like Social Security, but not Social Security. The big difference is that Social Security, even with all the negative headlines, it’s still backed by the US government. There’re lots of fears there that benefits will be changed in the future. I think they will be to kind of keep it solvent. It’ll still be there. This is kind of like private Social Security in a sense where you say, “Hey, not US government.” But, “Hey, insurance company, here’s money either all at once or over whatever premium schedule that you set up. And then give me that money back in the form of an income stream.”

What you’re doing is you’re increasing guaranteed income. Really, the only guaranteed income that most people will have, because pensions have really kind of gone away, is social security. What you’re trying to do is increase guaranteed income. And again, one of the things you have to look at is how is the insurance company rated? Are they rated well or not? Because there is risk of failure there and we’ve seen some bank failures that have, I think, shocked some people. That’s one of the things that you have to make sure that you are in tune with. But that’s essentially the broad strokes of an annuity.

[00:11:36] TU: And, Tim, great point about the comparison to Social Security. It obviously operates very different. But we’ll come back here in a little bit about the concept of a flooring strategy. But essentially, if we think about, again, replacing our paycheck with a retirement income stream. For most folks, even with the negative press around on Social Security, it may be that, hey, from Social Security, and then plus or minus an annuity, we’re going to have some type of – let’s call it base income, right? Oversimplifying a little bit because of how those can fluctuate and be variable in the different products. But drawing on some type of base. And then we can talk about how to make up the rest of the paycheck from there.

Types of annuities. Tim, I know this is a lot to cover in a short episode where we’re really focusing on some of the basics and we’re going to come back to this topic more in the future. But what are the main types of annuities. And how do they differ in terms of the structure and features?

[00:12:28] TB: I’m going to rattle off a bunch of different types of annuities. You have the immediate annuities, immediate fixed annuities, immediate variable annuities, deferred annuities, deferred income annuities, fixed deferred annuities, indexed annuities, variable deferred annuities. There’s –

[00:12:41] TU: Really easy to shop for, right? Is what you’re saying?

[00:12:44] TB: Yeah. Yeah. Super straightforward. We’ll put these in two kind of macro categories. You have kind of immediate versus is deferred. An immediate annuity is just that let’s say you’re retiring and you have a $2 portfolio. And you say, “Hey, I want to take some money off the table in terms of like my traditional portfolio. The market is blah-blah-blah. The volatility. I’m going to put a quarter million dollars into an immediate annuity.”

That means that I give the insurance company $250,000. And then within, I think, 13 months is what is considered an immediate annuity, you start receiving payments. A deferred annuity, the only difference is, is that you give that money today. And then 13-plus months later you get – there’s some growth there. Straight up, like if you do an immediate annuity today and you get that payment next month, the payment might be a little bit less. Versus if you wait 14 months, it might be a little bit more. That’s really the big difference.

One of the big products that’s out there that’s an immediate annuity is called a single premium immediate income annuity, a SPIA. These are contracts. Generally, start in providing income before 13 months after the date of deposit. They’re typically bought as a period certain.

One of the strategies that you could use – we just talked about social security and how powerful that could be. You could say, “Hey, I’m retiring at 65. I want to defer and get as many deferral credits for social security as possible. I’m going to buy a period certain of five years to get me to 70 so I can then claim Social Security.” That might be a way to kind of bridge the gap between that.

And I think that’s a viable strategy, Tim, which people don’t think of. They might say, ” I’m just going to draw down my traditional portfolio.” You can buy it for a single life. So, just me. Or you and a spouse. A joint life.

Obviously, the more people – typically, if it’s single life, and you are a guy, you are going to get paid higher. Versus a single life and you are female. Because females typically live longer. Single life versus joint life, if there’s two people, typically that payout is going to be less than a single life. Because there’s two basically occurrences for that annuity to kind of go away.

The SPIAs are typically lifetime income vehicles. You must be paid at least 12 months substantially in equal payments. But it can be not just monthly. It can be quarterly, semi-annual, or even annual payments.

Many SPIAs can accommodate a death benefit, which means that after you die, a lot of people – this is one of the misconceptions. A lot of people say, “All right if I give quarter million dollars to your insurance contract and I get one payment and then I keel over and die, I lose all that money.” And there are lots of ways to structure that to protect. It could be return of premium. It could be to pay it out for five or ten years. These are all kind of riders that you put on the annuity.

And then you have a deferred annuity, which is basically the same thing again. But it’s like 13-plus months later. The other macro category, Tim, that I would talk to is the fixed versus variable annuity. Fixed annuities provide regular periodic payments to the annuity. They’re fixed. They’re the same. Just like a mortgage. You pay the same, I guess if your taxes go up a little bit. But you pay the same thing month after month.

The variable annuity is based on the underlining performance of the funds that you kind of select. This is where the investment part comes in. You typically get a higher payment if the market does well and a lower payment if they don’t.

The big problem that I have with variable annuities is the commissions and fees associated with it. I’d almost – just like we talk about, buy term life insurance, invest the difference. Anytime you mix these products and there’s complexity upon complexity, typically means that the fees are going to go up.

But I would say the main types, immediate versus deferred, which is more about time-in. Fixed versus variable, which is more about the amount of payment that you’re going to receive connect it to whatever underlying investment that’s there.

Now if you do a fixed, the insurance company is going to invest it. They’re just going to invest it very safely and typically not necessarily tied to market. Maybe treasuries or bonds, things like that.

[00:17:04] TU: Tim, perhaps an oversimplification, but I would assume. I’m just thinking about this from why do these products exist. Obviously, they have to have viability from the person selling the policy, right? Just like a life insurance policy. And it feels like, while different based on variable or fix, that obviously they may be taking a larger lump sum of money investing and growing that at a greater return. Depending on the type of product and what you’re putting that money into. And then whatever they’re paying you out, in theory, their goal is to pay you out less so that they can make some money on the upside of that.

And that’s not a bad thing, right? I mean, in terms of if we want some stability – and we’ll talk about the flooring here in a moment. That’s what we’re willing to potentially give up is some of that higher upside. And obviously, we’re putting floor on some of the downside as well depending on the type of product. But is that generally how these products work from the institution standpoint of how they’re making money off of them?

[00:17:58] TB: Yeah. You know, no free lunch, right? In exchange for guaranteed income, I’m going to pull my money with other annuitants. And essentially, they’re playing the game of what do the morbidity table say? And can we still turn a profit?

But I think of it as I put in a quarter million, Tim. You put in a quarter million. Joe Schmo puts in a quarter million. And we’re all drawing on those funds. But Joe Schmo might die at age 75. You might live to age 105 and I might be somewhere in the middle.

But at the end of the day, you take a lot of maybe stress or some other things that are more soft, like more the human element, off the table. Because those checks are rolling in. I don’t have to worry about the markets as much. I mean, you still do. Because unless – we’ll talk about the flooring strategy.

But like one of the things that I think can stretch out retirees, especially in markets like this where it’s really volatile, they’re up and down, they’ll be kind of trending down over the last couple years, is that, “Hey, I started with a million bucks. I’m four years into retirement and I have $750,000. Or I have –” That’s because of what I’ve taken out. Because of losses. The annuity kind of addresses some of those things where it’s like, yeah, you might take a haircut at the start. But for that haircut, you’re getting $1,000, $1,500 on top of that Social Security that you have kind of rolling in.

[00:19:24] TU: And the emotional side.

[00:19:25] TB: Yeah.

[00:19:26] TU: Yeah. I mean, we haven’t talked a lot about that. Obviously, there’s a risk tolerance question here. But there’s also a peace of mind aspect to this as well in terms of building some of that base.

And I think Tim, what you just shared there in terms of the market changes are probably why we have seen such a strong uptick in the purchase. I shared those stats early on in the episode, right?

I mean, prior to that, we really were on this – what, 12, 14-year run of markets constantly going up. And obviously, we’ve had more volatility. And it would feel, like in a greater volatility or down market, the interests and annuities goes up. I mean, I think that would be human psychology, right?

[00:20:02] TB: You’re looking for more safety. And I would say that annuities typically are going to be – I think of myself as having more of an appetite for risk. But when I think about myself when I’m making these decisions in retirement, I feel like there’s a lot of appeal for this.

It’s like, “Okay, can I peel off a percentage of my traditional portfolio to turn that into an income stream that’s matched with my social security?” That like, at the end of the day, like everything could fall apart. But I still have enough to pay for my living expenses. Like all that kind of stuff. And I think that’s a big deal.

[00:20:41] TU: Tim, I have this visual of like you and I in our 80s like sitting on our rockers, like drawing on the annuities. And like I’m still waiting for the Bills to win a Super Bowl. You’re still waiting for the Sixers process to work out that’s taken forever.

[00:20:54] TB: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:20:55] TU: We’ll see where that goes.

[00:20:55] TB: Yeah, it’s going to happen. I think that the Sixers are good for a run.

[00:20:58] TU: This is the year. This is the year.

[00:21:00] TB: This is the year.

[00:21:01] TU: We’ll see yeah so let’s talk about how annuities fit into the broader income strategy. We’ve danced around this a couple times now with the flooring strategy. We’ve talked about that previously on an episode that we covered Social Security. We’ll link to that in the show notes. But talk to us about annuities as part of the retirement income strategy and creating that floor.

[00:21:19] TB: Yes. Again, I think when we’re looking at this, essentially, we’re trying to address kind of the four ‘Ls’ of retirement. It would be longevity. Do we have enough money to sustain us throughout lifestyle? Are we living the lifestyle that we want to live? Or do we have to adapt that because we didn’t plan enough, or we didn’t save enough, or whatever that looks like? Legacy. What do we leave behind to heirs? Or what are the things that are important to us that we want to make sure that we’re focusing on? And finally, liquidity. Do we have enough money that we can you know pull for those discretionary things?

To me, we’re kind of looking at – with an annuity, we’re trying to address I would say like three major – actually, probably four major risks in retirement. One is the longevity risk, which we’ve talked about. One is excess withdrawal risk, which means that if we’re trying to build a paycheck, there is a risk that we’re going to be pulling too much, especially in the early years. Maybe we’re pulling 5%, 6%, 7% early on. And then later on, we have to pull a lot less because we just pulled too much early on. Or the market is wonky, which is probably the third risk, which is market risk. We want to, with annuity, try to eliminate the volatility.

And probably the other one that’s maybe not necessarily talked about is like early loss of spouse. If you have social security, you and a spouse potentially could be pulling in two checks. But then when that spouse dies, now you have one. Annuity can help that as well, where you still have the dollars coming in.

When we look at it from a flooring approach, the flooring approach is probably the most conservative approach to building a retirement paycheck. The flooring approach calls for special products to be used, a la annuities, to set the floor. What we essentially are trying to do is establish what are the essential spending amounts that we need? And then what are the discretionary amounts that we need? The basic needs would be food, shelter, clothing, transportation, insurance premiums, and health expenses.

The main tools to kind of basically set that floor is going to be social security. Pensions, if you got them. Could be things like a bond ladder or TIPS and I bonds. And probably the last one is the annuity with fixed terms that have fixed terms or fixed payments. Or typically lifetime income streams.

To kind of walk through an example here, is that I might sit down with a client and say, “All right. We have between house and food, gas, utilities, maybe some debt still, medical insurance, that’s going to be $5,400 a month.” And then if we add up all the discretionary between travel, gifts, dining out, entertainment, hobbies, maybe that’s another 2,000. I’m really going to look at that as two separate buckets. We’ll say 5,400 for essential and 2000 for discretionary.

When I try to line up those income streams of like how are we going to cover the essential expenses? I know that this particular client, their benefit from Social Security is going to be $3,000 per month. I know that I have about a 2,400 gap. We’ll round it up to 2,500. About a 2,500 gap for those essential expenses.

What most people do is that that’s when they typically say, “Hey, 4% rule. Draw down the portfolio.” What the flooring strategy says is, “Okay, we have 3,000. We want to get to, say, 5,500 for the essentials. Let’s go out and peel off part of the traditional portfolio and have an annuity fill in that 2,400, 2,500 per month gap.”

So now, we go out, we say, “Okay, we’re going to take X from the traditional portfolio and we’re going to have a $3,000 check coming in for Social Security and then a $2,500 check coming in for the annuity.” That $5,500 meets the floor of those basic essential expenses. And then the remainder of the traditional portfolio, the 401K, the IRA, the simple IRA, the TSP, for those $2,000 for discretionary, we’re going to pull from the retirement portfolio. It could also be for part-time work, consultant work, or whatever.

But that’s the idea, is that create the floor with – if the wheels come off, we have to pay these no matter what. And then the rest, kind of the fund money, comes from the traditional portfolio.

For a lot of people, it’s just too conservative because they’re like, “I don’t want to give up X amount of my traditional portfolio for that $2,500 payment.” I was messing around with the immediate annuities.com. And you can put in a lot of different information to get a quote.

Just give you an example, Tim. I put in my information as if I was 65 and Shea was 60. And I said, “All right, I’m going to put in $250,000.” Let’s pretend I have a $2 million portfolio. I’m going to basically spend that down essentially to 1.75. That $250,000, if I were to basically buy an immediate life annuity, this would cover my life and her life. Would basically pay me out $1,308 for the rest of my life.”

[00:26:38] TU: Per month.

[00:26:38] TB: Per month.

[00:26:39] TU: Yeah.

[00:26:40] TB: If you do life plus 10 years certain. This would be – if I buy this annuity at 65, and then I die at 67 and she dies at – she’s five years younger, 65 herself. It would pay out to the beneficiaries 10 years. There’s also one. That would go down a little bit. That’s 1,299.

[00:27:00] TU: Which makes sense, because you’re getting that additional benefit. Yeah.

[00:27:04] TB: If it’s life with a cash refund – this is like the whole, “Hey if I give the insurance money and I get two payments, do I not get my money back?” Life with a cash refund. Basically, what’s left there, that payment goes down to 1,267.

And then it shows like five-year period certain. This was that whole idea of like, “Hey, if I want to extend Social Security or wait to do that,” if I do $250,000 for five years, you get 4,584 for those five years. 10-year period certain, 2,528. There are so many different variations of this in terms of how you purchase.

[00:27:39] TU: I’m curious. Like 250k, let’s just look at that more simple kind of straight option. 250k that you’re giving up of a nest egg of whatever, $2 million, $3 million, that you’re going to get about $1,300 per month and that was going to cover you and Shea. What are your thoughts on that, right? Because I hear that, I kind of feel the emotional tug in my brain, right? There’s the safety security side that’s like, “Oh, man. I know a check’s coming in every month for 1,300 a month.”

Assuming that I’ve saved enough for that 250k, isn’t going to be a massive percentage of the nest egg? I like that security. And then the other side, I’m like, “Geez! That’s only – what? 13,000, 14,000 a year.

When you look at kind of floor income, I too think of myself as being a little bit more aggressive. And what could that 250 be worth if it grows? You start to get into risk tolerance and some of the analytical side. What’s your gut reaction when you hear 250k to 1,300?

[00:28:35] TB: I don’t know. I mean, again, I think about in the context of like $2 million portfolio, peel off a quarter million. Basically, a quarter million turns into 1,300. For whatever reason, I don’t hate that. I think that like, again, our strategy probably is going to be for us to defer Social Security and wait as long as possible. That payment is going to be pretty substantial.

And then if you pepper in what you can get to at least reach that floor, I think that like just like any time you get like an insurance policy or your estate plan is set, I think there’s a could be like a feeling of like maybe you give up some upside. But like – I don’t know. I mean, I think like if I look at the worries that I would have in retirement, I’m less worried about legacy and I’m more worried about can my money sustain me?

[00:29:24] TU: Which is interesting part of the plan, right? And that to me speaks to the value of, like we say all the time, not looking at this in a silo. Even what you just raise, where does someone sit in terms of their feelings around legacy and maybe leaving money to family or leaving big philanthropic gifts? Or is there risk or concern on the longevity side? Those bigger questions have to be discussed and answered before we can determine what’s the pathway that we’re going to take in purchasing annuity.

[00:29:55] TB: If you look at it from the insurance perspective. If I’m 65 and I live to 95, that’s 30 years of $1,300 payments per month. When you multiply that out, that’s like $471,000. That I’m giving 250, I’m getting 2 – is there a risk that I die before that? Yeah. But you can also put those writers in that say, “Okay, you can get your premium back or a period certain.”

What would that 250 do outside of it? To me, it’s like when you get – I think my approach to this is like I want to be as aggressive and pedal to the metal. But then when I get to like decision time right as I’m setting up my paycheck, I want – and that’s why we talk about like Social Security. I want as much guaranteed income as I can get with reason, right?

I don’t know. Is it a quarter million? Is that half a million? Is it a hundred thousand? And again, like a quarter million out of a $1 million portfolio is a lot different animal. I want to make sure that I don’t have a $2 million portfolio. I have a $4 million, $5 million, $6 million portfolio that I can then look at this.

It’s an exercise in kind of a little bit of the what-ifs. But like what do you value? For me, again, if we put ourselves back on the beach and I’m complaining about the six years and you’re complaining about the bills, the checks are rolling in. Social Security, the annuity check. I guess what I would argue is I’m less concerned about the markets, which my dad, every time I talk to him, maybe because I’m a financial planner. He’s like, “Oh, the market. Blah-blah-blah. My socks.” And I’m like, “Cool.”

[00:31:29] TU: What?

[00:31:30] TB: Yeah. Like, how are those word searches going? But like I think the other argument that you can make is that you can afford more risk in a portfolio. Now the regulars might disagree with this. But this is something that the RICP was saying, is like, “If you can show in the grand scheme of things that you have two clients. One client that is straight, systemic withdrawal, 4% rule, blah-blah-blah.” Like, as you go through the eye of the storm, which is plus or minus five or ten years before and after retirement, you have to be super conservative. But if I can make the case that this client has what they need, then I don’t necessarily have to be as conservative. And I can still let the market do what it does over long periods of time, which is return 10%, 7% as we adjust down for inflation.

[00:32:17] TU: That was my thought. As a piece of this we haven’t talked about, what you’re alluding to right now, is for those folks that have a sizable nest egg. Let’s say that the math shows they need three, but they’ve saved five or six. That’s a very different conversation than someone that maybe, “Hey, I needed two and I’m at 1.2.”

Because it opens up. Again, depending on someone’s goal of risk tolerance, all the factors we need to discuss. If someone has a nest egg of five and the math says they needed three, if there’re other things they want to take more risk with, whether it’s in a traditional portfolio, whether, “Hey, I want to start a business. I want to start a foundation. I want to do X, Y, or Z.” This, to me, is very intriguing that you can write a check for an annuity that doesn’t have as big of an impact on percentage of the overall nest egg. And gives you some of that freedom and capacity not only mathematically, but mentally, to take some of that other risk.

[00:33:11] TB: Yeah. And I think that’s one of the things I think is underrated and all this. It’s just the mental, the psychological aspect of it. Because, again, many retirees, they have social security. But a lot of their paycheck is based on their portfolio. You’re spending that down. Whereas I would make the argument, you have a big chunk that comes out with like the flooring strategy. But then you’re spending that down a lot less comparison.

It’s a little bit of – for me personally if you check most of the boxes, I’m like risky, risky, risky. But then like I’m thinking about this in the context of like, me personally, I’m like, “I don’t know. That sounds pretty good.” If I can convert some chunk of my traditional portfolio to a lifetime income payment and not have to worry as much about a lot of these external factors that we have no control over.

[00:33:58] TU: Which, let me get on the soapbox here for a minute, Tim. This, to me, is such a great example of why having a partner, a planner, a coach in your corner is so valuable. We talk about this at length on the show. But especially in products like this. The same can be said for a long-term disability policy. The same could be said for purchasing a home. Because of how these are marketed, it takes us down a pathway of making a decision on a singular part of the plan, right?

And this is such a great example where we’re really talking about much broader issues, which is, “Hey, an annuity is one part of the retirement income strategy,” which we got to know what else is going on in the rest of the financial plan to be able to know where are we at in terms of building that retirement paycheck, which that information is needed to then determine what we may or may not need in an annuity. And then, obviously, the nuances within the annuity options.

But behind all of that is what’s the point? What’s the purpose? What do I want to accomplish? What’s the risk? What’s the goals? And this is the behavioral part of the plan that I know, Tim, I fall victim to. Like I’m punching numbers in the calculator. And I’m on the website you’re on and I’m like, “Ah. I love it. I don’t love it.” And I quickly lose sight of, “All right. Step back. What’s the purpose? What’s the plan? What are we trying to accomplish? What are we trying to achieve?” And where does this one important but very small part fit within the context of everything else we’re trying to do?

[00:35:24] TB: A lot of these things all fit together. Another thing that we’ve never talked about, which I think has a pretty nasty reputation, is even like things like reverse mortgages. And like how does that fit with this? Yeah, it’s multi-factor – like there’re just so many things to consider.

And I think a lot of people, one, they want to know, are they okay? Are they crazy? And I think pharmacists in particular, they want to know that like the math kind of supports that.

The cool thing about like what we can do is we can model all of these things out and say like, “Okay, this is how it affects you.” You know, the bottom line at the end of the day. And I think that this is another vote in the annuity corner, is I feel like sometimes, in retirement, people, they get so preoccupied with their money and with what the market is doing.

And part of it is like you’re not – your day-to-day, especially early in retirement, there’s this kind of like, “All right, I reached the finish line. My identity has been I’m a pharmacist.” Like a lot of that’s tied up. And like, you know you try to fill. And a lot of it goes to things like finances and the markets and things like that.

But when you look at your goals, like it’s typically not what you really want to do or enjoy doing. Some people do. But I think if you can take some of that stress out and really focus on what matters most, which might be volunteering, or traveling and things like that, and not have to worry about that. I mean, I think that’s a huge benefit.

One of the things we haven’t talked about, there are lots of cons to annuities as well. There’re pros. But there’re cons as well that you have to be kind of aware of and before you make that decision. Because it’s a decision that you can’t really reverse.

[00:37:05] TU: Let’s jump into one of those cons, Tim, which I often hear about. And before I started to dive more into this topic, I certainly had that talking point, which was fees, fees, fees, right? Annuities equals fees. And we probably underestimate the impact of those fees on the overall value of the product. Talk to us more objectively about the fees. How they work on these products? And what we should be considering?

[00:37:27] TB: Yeah. When you think about the costs, the fees, related fees, obviously, you have the premiums. That’s what you give the insurance company for that income stream. But I remember when I got into financial planning, Tim, when I worked in the broker-dealer world, one of the things that I heard was like sell variable annuities. And I’m like, “Why?” And like because they pay 6% to 8% commission. And it was like just talked about like that.

[00:37:53] TU: Do the math on that, right? A couple hundred thousand dollars.

[00:37:56] TB: Yeah. And I’m like, “Okay, the ones that have the higher commissions are – they have the longer surrender period.” Their surrender period, or their surrender charge, is where annuitants cannot make withdrawals during like a period of time or they get penalized. They pay a surrender charge or a fee. And these typically can last five, six, seven eight years. That’s involved.

There are annuities that will work with like the fee-only community like us, where they’re commission-free. But they still have to make money somewhere. It could be where they have admin fees. I wouldn’t make money as an advisor because I get paid differently. But there are still admin fees. Could be a mortality expense. This is the compensation that the insurance company basically earns for taking a risk of like you outliving that amount of money that you give them.

It could be if it is investment, like a variable annuity or an index annuity that there’s the expense ratio that you pay for those investments. And then all those riders. You know, you can have a rider for long-term care insurance that you can access your policy for long-term care. I should say, it could be a rider for return a premium. Or there’s lots of different writers that you can kind of tack on.

That’s one of the things that, regardless of the annuity that you elect to purchase, you’ll likely have to pay at least administrative and mortality expenses. Again, some will not have surrender. Some will not have commissions. And the ones that I typically like, which are typically like the SPIA. Keep it simple stupid. Those are going to be the cheapest for that.

But again, if I pay 1% or 2% to get a lifetime income, I’m willing to have that conversation. Versus I don’t know if I’m going to have that conversation at 6%, 7%, 8%.

[00:39:47] TU: Yeah. Tim, I’m not ashamed about the bias I’m going to have here and saying what I say because we’re proud of the value of fee-only fiduciary advice. This is an example where separating the advice from the purchasing of the policy is really valuable, right?

[00:40:02] TB: Totally.

[00:40:02] TU: If I’m totally in an annuity and I’m trying to understand the nuances. What do I need? What do I not need? Not only does a good-fee only planner able to see the rest of the plan and help us advise it. But when we’re in that purchase decision, which is true with any other insurance policy as well. And that insurance policy is tied to a commission, separating the advice from the commission of the policy can be really valuable.

We’re looking at two, three, four options. Understanding what we do or don’t need. Doesn’t mean people that are selling annuities are bad. But just understanding where the conflicts may arise. And then how do we mitigate those so we can ensure we get what we do need and don’t get what we don’t want?

[00:40:40] TB: Yeah. Tim, variable annuities, and non-traded REITs. Back in the day, those were like sell those. And it was because of those commissions were just ridiculously high. And again, I think most people are inherently good and they want to do right by the client.

But also, if you’re in that system, like you don’t really bat an eye at that. Where I’m like, “Geez.” I was new. I was like that doesn’t seem like something that we should just – I don’t want to say flaunt. But it didn’t sit well with me.

[00:41:11] TU: Tim, last question I want to ask you before we wrap up here. Refers to the pre-tax, after-tax component. My understanding is that annuities can be purchased with both pre-tax and after-tax dollars. And so, how does the tax treatment of annuities differ depending on the type of annuity and how it’s funded?

[00:41:27] TB: Yeah. I think the tax treatment, I think the best way to understand it is that think of it as very similar to a pre-tax and an after-tax IRA. If you purchase – say, we use that example. Let’s say I have my $2 million portfolio but a million of that is from a traditional – a pre-tax IRA. And I’m going to peal the $250,000 for my SPIA out of my pre-tax IRA.

Essentially, the funding source is pre-tax. That annuity will be qualified. It’ll be funded with pre-tax money. Essentially, that means that when those payments start to come out, they are taxed as ordinary income just like it would be if I just withdrew it from the IRA.

[00:42:15] TU: To move down to Florida?

[00:42:17] TB: Yeah, exactly. Right. Exactly. I can void state Yeah. If I say, “Hey, on second thought, I want to fund my annuity with after-tax dollars.” Let’s say I use a Roth or it could be even let’s say a brokerage account. Those are post-tax dollars. You only pay taxes on the earnings or interest portion of the distribution but not the principal.

They look at the bulk of that payment come back as like a return in principle. think of it very similarly to how you would just distribute a traditional 401k or a Roth 401k. One of the things to call out is that annuities still have that 10%. If you do this before 59 and a half, you still have a 10 penalty on those qualified annuities.

I think there is – and don’t quote me on this. But I think if you say I’m 57, so I’m before 59 and a half, and I buy a SPIA and I knew – that means I basically annuitized that within 13 months. I think that circumvents that role because you’re basically drawing it out immediately. I think there are a little bit of like variations to the tax and the penalties. But pretty much I would say think of it as how you would distribute a pre-tax or an after-tax account.

[00:43:32] TU: Tim, great stuff. We’ve covered a lot. But we’re just dabbling into the topic of annuities. One that we’re going to be talking more about along with other topics, especially to those pharmacists that are in that mid-career, pre-retiree, retiree. Things that we know are top of mind as they evaluate that transition maybe soon or a little bit later into retirement.

And I really want to call out, as we wrap up here, our financial planning services offered by our five certified financial planners at YFP Planning. We work with pharmacists at all stages of their career. Whether you’re nearing retirement and you’re thinking about this decision on annuity. Whether you’re in the middle of your career. Or whether you’re a new practitioner, we have one-on-one comprehensive financial planning that is ready to meet your needs based on your goals and your stage of career.

For those that are new practitioners, we’ve got a foundational financial planning offering. For those that are more in the middle to later in their careers, we have a wealth management service. And I will link to in the show notes a link where you can book a free discovery call with Justin, pharmacist from our team, to learn more about those services and whether or not they’re a good fit for what you’re looking for.

Tim, thanks so much, as always. And looking forward to get back to it in the future.

[00:44:41] TB: You got it.

[OUTRO]

[00:44:43] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home.

A lot of pharmacists and the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% down payment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time home buyers and has no PMI on a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage.

To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to get started with the pre-approval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the date published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacists.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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