YFP 280: How and Why This Pharmacist Pivoted to a Writing Career


Dr. Warda Nawaz discusses what led her to leave her full-time pharmacy job just 3 months in, how and why she pivoted to a career in writing, and what she has learned about herself in the early stages of entrepreneurship. 

About Today’s Guest

Warda Nawaz is a freelance medical writer and a creative writer of YA fantasy fiction. She is also the owner of her online medical writing business, Jasmine Medical, which empowers women to take ownership of their bodies by communicating health content that educates professionals and consumers. Warda also currently has a young adult novel set for publication, which discusses women’s experiences with misogyny, predation, and violence. Her goal is to promote the perspectives and experiences of minority women and to encourage other women to embrace creative endeavors by placing their narratives, fiction, and non-fiction, in the publishing space.

Episode Summary

In this week’s episode, Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, is joined by Dr. Warda Nawaz, a freelance medical writer and creative writer of young adult fantasy fiction. In their discussion, Warda shares what led her to leave her full-time pharmacy job after just three months, how and why she pivoted to a career in writing, and what she has learned about herself in the early stages of entrepreneurship. After walking through her pharmacy journey, Warda details how the start of her career aligned with the initial events of the COVID-19 pandemic in the United States, making for a challenging and unusual career kick-off. Just a few months into her pharmacy position, Warda experienced a life-altering event that changed her career and the trajectory of her life. No longer able to endure the physical demands of her pharmacy job, Warda poured herself into her passion: writing. Now, as a writer, Warda has found herself in the medical and young adult fantasy fiction spaces. Her new career in writing has afforded her more work/life balance and allowed her to focus on her health. While she may have more flexibility, this new pathway in writing has not come without challenges, which Warda explains. Warda details how, through entrepreneurship, she has grown along the way, taking courses and coaching to improve her online presence, mindset, and marketing in her new creative career. 

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRO]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. 

This week, I had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Warda Nawaz, as we discuss what led her to leave her full-time pharmacy job just three months in, how and why she pivoted to a career in writing, and what she has learned about herself in the early stages of entrepreneurship.

Now, before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one on one with more than 250 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one on one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. 

Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Dr. Warda Nawaz. 

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:10] TU: Warda, welcome to the show.

[00:01:11] WN: Hi, Tim. It’s so nice to be here. Thank you for having me.

[00:01:14] TU: Yes. I’m excited to share your story with the YFP community, and really talk about how and why you pivoted to writing for a living, maybe a more nontraditional career path. We’re going to talk about that journey, why you made that pivot, what you’re currently working on, some lessons that you learned along the way as well. 

But first, let’s start with your pharmacy journey. Where did you go to school? When did you graduate? And what drew you into the profession of pharmacy?

[00:01:41] WN: Yeah. So I graduated in 2019 from pharmacy school. I went to California North State University. I’m from California. I’ve lived here most of my life. So I just went to a local pharmacy school, which was nice. It saved me money, somewhat. I originally had plans to do residency, but I didn’t do that. I got into pharmacy because I majored in neurobiology, physiology, and behavior. So I had a scientific background, a very strong one. 

The next logical step to me seemed like, “Okay, let’s build on that. Let’s do something with that.” At that time, I was really struggling with either let’s – Do I go the writing route? Or do I stick with the sciences? I have loved writing all my life, and it was always a passion of mine. But I also come from a community and a culture where the arts and the sciences are kind of looked down upon, and they’re not really taken very seriously. So I didn’t know if I could build a very serious career out of that, and I was discouraged from pursuing it. 

So it was a very big struggle right after undergrad to figure out, well, what do I want to do? So I stayed one extra year in undergrad to figure out which health profession do I want to go into. I chose pharmacy in the end because I ended up taking a class on the neurobiology of addictive drugs, and I got so fascinated by how drugs can change the human physiology and the behavior. I also noticed that there’s a really big problem in this country with substance abuse and drug addiction. I wanted to play a role with that as a pharmacist. 

That’s where my initial interest sparked. So I decided to go work in the community setting, and that’s what I was doing for the past two years. I was working on the frontlines of the pandemic. It was odd because I started working right when the world changed. So I never knew what a normal work situation looks like because everything was changing by the time I had just been hired. I got hired in March when the pandemic was announced. So everything had already changed. So it was odd, but it was interesting. But, yeah, that’s why I got into pharmacy.

[00:03:48] TU: So you mentioned 2019, you graduated, worked a couple years in community practice, and made a transition, which we’ll talk about here in a moment. Obviously, you’re in the thick of it in the pandemic. I’m curious, though, you mentioned a culture where some of the arts may not be as highly regarded and, obviously, we’re talking here about a career in writing. Where did that interest in writing come from? Can you remember back to your youth, having that love for writing? Where did that come from?

[00:04:16] WN: So I grew up in Pakistan. As you know, Pakistan was colonized by the British. So English was part of our language. In our culture, at least, I know growing up, I did not grow up reading books or novels per se, not like fiction novels anyway. I mean, there are books, obviously. There’s books in every country and nation and culture. But I realized there was something missing in my culture in regards to self-expression. I just didn’t see as much of people pursuing writing careers or scholarly kind of pursuits, and I had this burning desire to write stories, to share experiences. 

I remember sitting down when I was like seven years old, and I was like sitting right next to my mom. One of my assignments was to write like a story in English. My English then was very like broken and not very good. My mom had done a master’s in English, so she basically told me the story, and I just wrote it down. But it was all her ideas. I realized when I grew up, I want to have my own ideas. I don’t want somebody to tell me what to do or what to write. I want to create my own stuff. I want to write my own stories. I want to create my own material and then be able to share it with the world. 

I just didn’t have that power growing up. Like I was told, “This is what you need to memorize. This is what you need to know.” Then you just spit it out on a test, and I didn’t like that method. I didn’t like that way of learning. I wanted to compile different pieces of information and put it together, but I want it to be my own idea. I got that critical analysis and thinking, kind of learning more so when I came to the United States because the United States has a very different educational system and, I would say, approach to learning.

It’s very different from my own home country where over there, it’s more about regurgitation and memorization, which that works too for sciences. You got to memorize some things. But over here, there’s a little bit more, I would say, freedom to analyze and to criticize and to create. There’s more opportunities to publish, to write, to do things. I needed that freedom, and that’s what I was seeking.

[00:06:37] TU: Yeah. What a great time in 2022. We’ll talk more about this. But when it comes to opportunities for publishing and writing, it’s a much more open space than it used to be in 15, 20 years ago. So you have this initial flame through this experience as a child that uncovers this desire to really tell your own story, to write your own story. Then you go down this path into the sciences in the pharmacy school. But sure enough, this flame would remain and would come back. 

So a few months ago, on LinkedIn, of which I really enjoy following you, and I hope our listeners will as well, you posted about a brutal wakeup call that you had in 2020 that ultimately changed the trajectory of your career and your life. Can you tell us about that, and what shift started to happen career-wise through that experience?

[00:07:26] WN: It was actually kind of sad because I was only three months into my pharmacy, first professional job as an adult, first job. Just imagine, you’re entering, and you’re so excited, and all you want to do is go and help people. I mean, this is what I’ve been training my whole life to do, right, or at least my four years in pharmacy school to do. I was traveling as a pharmacist. I worked in the Northern California region, so I had to travel a lot. I got into a car accident while driving to work. 

The accident ended up damaging my foot in such a severe way that I couldn’t stand or walk for a couple months. My job, obviously, required me to be on my feet and to be very mobile and to move around. It was a very physically demanding job, and I was like, “Well, how am I supposed to do my job if I can’t even stand? I can’t even drive.” I couldn’t drive for a very long time. So that was a bit traumatic and also just PTSD. I didn’t want to go out and drive anymore. I was like, “I’m done.” 

I did take the time to, obviously, recover and do everything the doctor told me to do. But then I went back, obviously, because I wanted to get back in the game and do what you’re supposed to do. But I realized I kept suffering. My suffering had not ended. My pain was persisting. I was having more injuries at work. I was suffering with more stress and more setbacks. My car was vandalized, which was lovely. I mean, I was seeing like signs after signs after signs that like, “Maybe you’re not where you need to be because you need to do something where you can thrive and you can – You shouldn’t have to kill yourself for your job, essentially. You should be thriving and having a good time.” 

That’s not what was happening. I was not having a good time. Every morning, it was like waking up to like some dark abyss. I was like, “What have I gotten myself into? This is not making me feel excited.” During that time when I was recovering and I was just immobile and just sitting on my couch, I picked up my manuscript that I’ve been working on for many years, and I started working on it again. I’m like, “I have nothing else to do. I’m going to just work on my book. I’m going to pick up my writing and work on it because it doesn’t require a lot of driving. It doesn’t require me to be physically like on my feet.” I’m like, “I’m being productive. I’m using my mind. I’m using my research skills. I’m creating something. I’m being productive. Why don’t I do this? Well, why did I like leave this? Why did I abandon this?” 

That was wake up call. It was me realizing that you can lie to yourself about all that you want. About like, “This is not what I’m supposed to do.” But I think life will always try to push you back to where you need to be, sometimes in traumatic ways. But I think you need to listen to yourself and your intuition, and that’s basically what happened but in a more, obviously, very sudden way.

[00:10:23] TU: Yeah. I want to read for a moment from that post because one of the things I really appreciate about your journey is that, obviously, the impact that you’re having through your writing and will have through your writing but also the impact and motivation you’re providing to others. One of the things you said in that post was, “This, my friends, was a wakeup call and a much needed setback in my life that reset my life and career goals. Today, I no longer travel for work. Today, I write for a living. I wake up every morning, looking forward to having control of my life, building my medical writing business, and working on my debut novel, and feeling alive in the process. I don’t put myself in dangerous situations daily so that I can bring home a paycheck. I live my life with more uncertainty but also more freedom and reward. I also live with a greater appreciation for adversity and embrace it for what it has taught me.”

So as you hear those words now, a few months later as you’ve made this leap, what jumps out at you? I mean, I’m sure this has been a challenging season. It’s not all rainbows and butterflies, right? You made a significant jump from a very known entity in terms of the work that you were doing. But how have you reflected on that over the last few months, since you made that post?

[00:11:34] WN: I feel the same way. Everything that I said in that is 100% still true, still true, holds true. There is a lot of uncertainty in, I guess, my line of business, freelancing, because it’s not a set job. You’re not working for a company, and you don’t have set hours per se. You are your own boss. You have to go out and find clients. You have to take the initiative. You have to be constantly showing up for yourself. So you have to divide your time and block out your day and block out your schedule. There’s a lot of self-initiative that you have to take in order to do this work. There is uncertainty in that sense because you know that every day will look a little bit different, and you don’t know how much work that you’ll be given or that you’ll be blessed with.

Then for the novel writing, I mean, it’s something I have to block out time for that as well. Finally, after 10 years of putting it away and finally picking it up and doing it and I’ve actually tried to come up with a routine. I’m going to write in the morning, and I’m going to write in the evening, and I’m actually taking classes to help me learn how do publish authors who are successful and who’ve been in the business, how have they been doing it? Because I know it’s – How have they written like 50 novels? Like they must have a method, right? 

So I’m learning from the experts, like what did they do to make themselves so productive? Because you only have so many hours in a day and so many years in your life, so I’m doing what I can to make my time most efficient. I also use these last few months to recover. I had surgery in June. So I was also taking this time to improve my health. All of that is in your hands when you are your own boss. I mean, you decide when do you want to take a sick day, when do you want to be like working like crazy. I mean, it’s all up to you. But you have to show up every day for yourself. 

[00:13:26] TU: Warda, when you made this transition, was there any overlap? Had you been working on establishing some of the medical writing business or even perhaps some of the novel work? Or was this a hard like, “I’m out and I’m going to begin to build this thing from scratch.”?

[00:13:41] WN: No, no, no. Yeah, yeah. I was already – There was some groundwork already done. For the novel writing, I had already finished my novel or my book in pharmacy school. So that was already done. That was a said and done thing. That was something on the backburner. I neglected it because I was now in the sciences and had zero time to write. I realized I can’t be writing full time and doing my day job. So I had to pick something. Obviously, the accidents and all these other events made me eventually choose one or the other. 

Then for the medical writing, actually, I had done coaching in 2021, when I was still in my pharmacy day job with Happy PharmD. That kind of helped me figure out and establish myself a little bit better on LinkedIn and also build my network a bit more. It also helped me connect with other medical writers. I met Brittany Hoffmann, an RX author, and I met Sophie Ash as well. I followed her for a very long time. I followed her content, her story, and I connected with her. I messaged her a couple times, just asking her questions about, “What is it like to have your own business, and how do taxes work? I don’t know what this is like. Can I actually make a living doing this? Do you ever find it struggling to pay bills?” 

So I asked these kinds of questions before I totally jumped because I didn’t want to jump and then not be like, “Oh, my God. Now, I’m all alone. What do I do?” So I had kind of done the groundwork, and I was talking and asking questions, and I attended webinars for medical writing as well and on LinkedIn, through LinkedIn, through people in the industry to help me learn more. I was following all these successful entrepreneurs, and I saw what they were doing. I’m like, “Oh, my God. Why is everybody starting a business? I guess this is the thing now.” 

But I was like maybe this is like the modern age. It’s like where you have to be your own boss because nobody wants to be in the pharmacy setting. Maybe everybody wants to create their own thing. But it wasn’t just for me like following a fad. It was also knowing that like I was being very honest with myself. I’m like, “If I do open a business, can I maintain it? And it also has to be a business I’m passionate about.” I was like, “What kind of business should I start?” I was like, “The only one I can think of right now is medical writing.” So I got into the medical writing coaching program in January 2022, literally January 1st, 2022, first of the year. A month and a half into it after I got one client, I know that doesn’t sound very successful now does it? But –

[00:16:14] TU: Well, yeah. You got to start somewhere, right? Yeah.

[00:16:17] WN: Right. So I actually started having people approached me and asked me for projects and things. So I was like, “You know what? I think I’m going to do this. But in order to do this, I need to let go of my day job because there’s no way in heck I can split my brain in like for my day job and do this.” At that point, I had to make the difficult decision of jumping ship and putting my resignation for my day job, so I can focus on my business. Because I was like, “There’s no way I can do both.” 

I mean, I do like the income side that comes with that security of that day job. But then I was like, at some point, you have to take a risk. From every advice that I’ve been given from the people who are way ahead of me, for these entrepreneurs, they say that you have to take calculated risks. You have to take risks. There’s just no reward if you don’t even try. So I was like, “I have to try at least.”

[00:17:10] TU: That was part of the reason I wanted to ask that question was because I hear from a lot of pharmacists that may have an idea, but they’re caught in between. When do I potentially take that risk? Can I bridge this and do two things at once? You mentioned calculated risk. Did you consider at one point like a part-time role, and then you’d work on the business part time? Or apparently, if not, like what really led you to this path of like, “I’m going to go all in.”?

[00:17:38] WN: It was at that point, honestly, my health was suffering so much, my mental and my physical health. There was no way I could have kept going at my day job. I couldn’t drive for long periods of time already. I had work restrictions. Standing on my feet hurt my foot. My work condition actually got worse as a result. So I knew if I chose my day job, just in order to keep the income and the sense of security, I was only going to dig myself deeper. I had already done that for the last two years. So I knew at that point, I had to pick me, even if it hurt me financially a little bit in the beginning anyway. 

So I had started to save up, and I was being very careful with how I was spending my money. Obviously, the coaching was an investment as well. So I calculated everything like, “Okay, how much have I spent? How much am I planning on actually making a return on this investment?” So I had to put all of that into consideration before I jumped. But at some point, you have to do it because there’s – You can’t predict all, everything that’s going to happen, right? You cannot. There’s no way. But you can just look at your bank balance and be like, “Do I have enough to kind of keep me going for the next few months? Is my lifestyle –” Like change your lifestyle. If you think you – You have to change who you are as well, right? You have to change your own lifestyle and habits that might be contributing to your financial distress. 

I’m no financial expert. You are, so maybe people can come to you and ask you about that. But I don’t invest money or anything. But, I mean, I know people do. People go into real estate and things like that. I, obviously, am way too young and early in my journey to know about all that. But I just make smart decisions and know what you have and save some for the next few months or maybe even a year ahead. It’ll help you so much during times of uncertainty or during times when you’re not getting any work.

[00:19:37] TU: Let me follow up on that because one of the things I often hear from pharmacists I talk with that have an idea and that could be a different position, that could be a business that they want to pursue, it could be a variety of nonprofit they want to start, is I can sense the passion and the idea. Then it’s often their financial position that really gives them pause about whether or not I should move forward. I think for many 2019 grads, such as yourself, they have an idea. They might be thinking, “Yeah, I have an idea. But I’ve got $200,000 of student loan debt. I feel like I need to be saving and investing for the future. I’m trying to buy a home. I’m trying to do other things.” 

So my question for you is how are you able to reconcile some of that tension personally when it comes to the finances? Obviously, position and community practice can afford some of that safety net and some guarantee to be able to overcome some of those concerns, financially, personally, to be able to make that leap into the business. Was it coming up with a certain amount of savings? Was it evaluating other parts of the plan? How were you able to think through that and ultimately make that decision, despite perhaps some of those financial stressors that were there?

[00:20:48] WN: So I’m blessed in that I do have family to support me. I don’t have to pay rent. I don’t have a mortgage. I didn’t buy a home. I don’t have kids. I can’t say that for everybody. Everybody’s situation is different. If you’re a single mom with kids, I know your situation will be totally different from mine, and my advice will, obviously, not be helpful. But it kind of helped that I was single, and I didn’t have tiny kids to take care of, and I had family to lean on to help me during this time. 

That being said, obviously, it was still a decision I made, knowing that maybe my family will not approve because it’s a risky one. So, yes, in the beginning, I was getting resistance and kind of side-eye look like, “How could you do this?” But ultimately, it was about them knowing that my health matters more than finances ever will. There is no point in being alive or having a six-figure whatever job if you’re not alive tomorrow, and you’re going to spend your days in the hospital, or you’re going to be going back to the medical office again for an issue that was exacerbated by your job. You have to ultimately pick and choose what is most important to you, what’s important right now, and what’s going to be most helpful for you in the long run. In the long run, my health was most important. 

Also, for me, writing is very important. I can lose my ability to walk. Fine. But I do not want to lose my ability to write. I don’t want to have like a hand injury. I don’t want to have a brain injury. I want – There are certain things I know I will not compromise. So you have to as an individual choose what are you willing to compromise and let go of and sacrifice in order to do what you truly love and what makes you feel alive. That even if you lose one of those things, it’s not going to like ruin your day, and it’s not going to ruin your life. 

Did my accident ruin my life? No, I think it just set me on a better path, and it helped me realize and reset my goals like, yeah, this is fine. Yes, I’m kind of in a financial rut right now. I’m not – I don’t have a six-figure income right now. I am struggling financially, right? But I have put the steps in to connect with people, which people are your wealth, essentially, right? Like your network is your net worth. So you don’t know what opportunities might come through the people and the relationships you’ve built. 

I look at it that way. If you just look at the balance sheet, then you’ll always feel disappointed in yourself. You’ll always feel like, “I’m not good enough.” I had a six-figure income, but I was not happy. So that, to me, was enough evidence to know that it’s not just about money. It’s about your quality of life. If you don’t have the quality of life you want, it doesn’t matter how much income or how much work is being sent your way. You could still be having a very bad day. So look at the quality of life, rather than just the balance sheet. 

I know in business that’s when most people like to follow the paper trail. It’s like, “Oh, how much money?” But it’s like that’s exactly why I did writing because I’m running away from that. I don’t want it to be all about that. So I’m okay not making six figures, as long as I am getting by, and I can change my lifestyle accordingly, like stop living so lavishly, stop buying unnecessary things, and lean on others. It’s okay to lean on others. You don’t have to have it all figured out. People assume that you hit a certain age, you have to have it all figured out. That’s not true. It’s a myth. Society told you, you have to have it all figured out, and you don’t have to. 

[00:24:25] TU: That’s right. 

[00:24:26] WN: Lean on your tribe. Lean on people you love.

[00:24:29] TU: That’s right, especially people. You mentioned a couple of folks earlier, Brittany and others. We had Megan Freeland on the show in 259. But others who have been down this path that you can lean on and learn from that have been down a similar journey. We talk often on the show that a good financial plan really has to be able to, yes, we got to take care of the future and plan ahead and think about 15, 20, 30 years down the road. But we also have to live a rich life along the way, and part of living a rich life is doing work that you love and contributing in a meaningful way based on the gifts that, obviously, you’ve been given and the impact that you can have. I think our work is often a piece of that. That can be so important. 

I’m curious, Warda, because I enjoy writing as a hobby. I won’t claim to be a great writer. I just – It really is a fun creative outlet. I like to do it. But there’s a whole different level in terms of like writing for enjoyment as a hobby to like going pro, right? This is like my main thing. So I’m curious, and you mentioned writers that have published 50 books and others. But how has that journey been where you’ve got to now have the discipline, the schedules, and making sure you’re writing so much per day? Like do you still maintain the energy and enthusiasm for the work? How do you build those disciplines and routines into the schedule each week to make sure that the production’s moving forward?

[00:25:54] WN: I’m actually part of a writing mastery academy. It’s basically a website created by a very successful bestselling author. She’s written like 20 novels, and she has a lot of content and coursework on there about exactly the questions that you asked like lifestyle, routine, things like that. But also like how to write quickly and efficiently so you can actually make a living out of doing this, how to sell your work, marketing because these are all these skills that, obviously, I did not learn in pharmacy school, right? These are new skills I’m learning and developing constantly. 

I have talked to authors as well. Then I’ve talked to publishing experts about like writers conferences and where you can meet people and you can develop yourself. So it’s basically like in pharmacy, where you go to conferences. You network. You talk to people, right? There’s just like that with the writing industry as well. There are so many writers conferences. I was like googling it the other day, and there’s like a million of them. I’m actually scheduled to go to one in LA. God willingly it works out in August. There’s another one in Kauai in November that I’m planning on going to. It’s, obviously, editors will be there. Agents will be there. Published authors will be there. There’s webinars, master classes. There’s workshops. You get feedback on your manuscript. I already have a manuscript, and I’m like I’ve prepared a pitch. You just kind of prepare yourself. 

For me, the daily routine – Right now, because my manuscript is done, my focus is more on preparing my manuscript, you could say, for sharing to an agent. So it has to be like polished and beautiful. So I’m like doing those last minute look through and read through on that. I’m also part of a beta reader and critique partner group in the community as well. So I have like a group of writers who are writing in my genre to read and provide me with feedback. All of that is happening simultaneously. So you have to start thinking of your writing as a business as well like, “This is my new identity. This is my career.” 

Then you start developing yourself. Go to conferences. Connect with beta readers. Connect with other writers. Have them give you feedback. Improve your work. Don’t take it personally. It’s not about you. It’s about the work and the quality of work that the publishing industry expects you to produce. I used to be like that. In the beginning, I used to take everything personally like, “Oh, my God. They hate me.” It’s like, “No, it’s not about you.” There’s certain standards in every industry, and you have to know about them, and that’s what I’m building myself. I’m learning from experts. That’s what I’m doing right now.

[00:28:35] TU: Warda, a couple of weeks ago on LinkedIn, you posted something about reaching out to an author that you’ve looked up to and was somewhat surprised, I think, by the response that you received. Can you tell us about that story and what you learned through that interaction?

[00:28:50] WN: Yeah. So as an author, a teen fantasy author that I had read her books when I was a teen, and I reached out to her, basically asking her like – I’m not asking her anything, but just kind of telling her, “Hey, I’ve read your books my whole life. And, oh, my God, I really admire you. And now, I’m starting to also become a published author. And do you have any advice for me?” Then she told me that like, “The best advice that I was given was that you should never stop writing.” She also told me about writers conferences, and she told me to develop myself more and to meet people in the industry. 

It just basically told me that even if you’re like the only person in your family or whatever who’s pursuing this path, don’t feel discouraged and just start. I think, for me, at least, I know I’m a perfectionist. I’m very hard on myself. I’m very self-critical. I’m like, “Will I ever be good enough?” But I think it starts with you not trying to compare yourself to people who are already well-established and knowing that everybody has to start somewhere. Yeah. I just loved her response because she was so supportive. It’s, obviously, a very big deal when it’s somebody that you actually read their works, and you really admire it. A lot of her stuff actually helped inspire me to get into this genre as well. So that was cool.

[00:30:15] TU: I love that that story because I think that for whatever reason, when I talk to aspiring pharmacy entrepreneurs, and I encourage them to do what you just did, reach out to someone who’s doing something, along the work that you, obviously, admire and can learn from, there’s this perception that like people are unreachable, untouchable. I think more often than not, not always but more often than not, people are willing to share. People are willing to be encouraging. That might mean other pharmacists. Or in this case, it might mean not pharmacists and, obviously, other people that are out there. 

I think taking a little bit of a leap of faith to reach out to 3, 5, 7, 10 people, and get some input, feedback, someone that will be willing to take some time to bounce some ideas off and not necessarily just make the assumption that, “Oh, they’re too busy. They’re not going to take time to listen to what I have to say.” So I was glad to see that. That was a neat example. 

Warda, when I think about the transition to starting your own business, it can be exciting, and it can be overwhelming. It’s, obviously, exciting as you explore an area that you’re passionate about. But it also can be overwhelming. That there’s just a lot of things that you have to do and to put in place, and that could be things like setting up the actual infrastructure of the business. That could be now you’re having to market yourself and sales and reach out to folks. 

As you reflect on this journey and making this transition from employee to entrepreneur, have there been one or two areas that you can identify that have really been opportunities, whether you want to call them bumps in the road or opportunities to grow and to learn that you really have experienced and learned about yourself through this transition?

[00:32:00] WN: Yeah. There have been a couple of opportunities, where I’ve definitely learned new skills that I didn’t have before. Well, number one is, obviously, social media and being comfortable being on that platform. Figuring out, well, what’s the best platform to develop your presence? Depending on what kind of business you’re setting up, it will be different. For medical writing, I mean, LinkedIn is good enough. I could explore other options. But right now, I’m just staying focused on LinkedIn. It’s a very intellectual platform. I think, yeah, LinkedIn is just good for meeting other professionals because it’s focused more on your career development. So I like that. 

Then for my author platform, that is something I’m still looking into. I know a lot of authors use Instagram for that and also Twitter as well. So I was actually going to enroll myself in a master class to figure that out. There’s also a conference in San Francisco coming up in which a couple of speakers talk about what is the best platform that authors can establish themselves prior to putting their book out there. But the important part is to promote yourself and to be constantly present. That is the best way to grow. If nobody can find you, nobody – You can’t grow and your business can’t grow. So you have to be comfortable being in this space, in the public space. 

That is something that I, obviously, had to learn to do. It doesn’t come easy because I’m an introvert, and I’m extremely shy about being in this open space. It feels very awkward at times, but I know it’s part and parcel of just being in this business, even as an author. We’re very reclusive. We’re like, “Oh, don’t come near me. We don’t want cameras on us. We don’t want the attention.” But we do want our work to be known. But it’s not like – It’s hard. You have to eventually realize the focus is, in the end, not going to be on you but more on the types of work that you’re putting out there. So just learning about that, it’s a mindset shift as well. 

Also, another, I guess, hard skill that I learned, besides just developing an online presence, marketing, learning how to sell yourself. I mean, that’s pretty – I’m still developing that. I’m by no means an expert. I’m still figuring out, okay, what software should I use, if I want somebody to like buy something from me? Setting that up and also website. I have built a website, but it’s a DIY, do-it-yourself website. It’s not by any means done by a professional or a graphic designer. So I was learning about like graphic designing a little bit, like what fonts work, what colors work. I was just tinkering with it. I’m not an expert, but I’m figuring it out. What really helped –

[00:34:52] TU: Got to start. 

[00:34:52] WN: Yeah, exactly. That’s why I did the coaching program because it taught me all those skills. Week by week, we went and focused on different issues. So the first week, I think we focused on building your online presence. The second week, we worked on the resume. Third week, we worked on writing samples and portfolio, so having an actual thing to showcase. Then fourth week, I think we worked on something else. Then fifth week, we worked on building the website. So each week, we focused on something else, and that’s how I basically ended up building the infrastructure of my business like, “Okay, this is how I’m going to market myself. This is the platform that I’m going to use.” 

It’s up to you as a business owner. Do you want to have a website? It is an investment. That’s why I say like save a little bit ahead of time, so you can prepare yourself for this. But just also know it doesn’t have to be all squared away in the beginning. You can always invest more professionally later. But at least I got the basic groundwork. Also, do you want to have a logo for your company? Come up with a company name. Figure out a logo. Logo is not that important. But, I mean, it helps. It kind of makes you feel good if you created something for yourself, right? 

For medical writing, if you’re opening your own business or a company, it’s good to register it as an LLC, limited liability company, so you can protect yourself from liability. So all of that.

[00:36:15] TU: That’s great, and I admire your hunger to learn. I’ve heard you mentioned, at least three or four times, different courses you’ve jumped in to learn through new things, different communities that you’ve jumped in. So I think that hunger to learn, that motivation to recognize, it’s one of the gifts we have of living in 2022, right? We can pretty easily, if we’re willing to put in the time and the effort, go out and find opportunities where we can learn and grow our skills. So I love that mindset. I love not only the hunger to learn but also the hunger to just implement and get started, even if it’s not perfect, and really to step outside of your comfort zone. 

I would encourage you, and I think you do an awesome job of this that as you continue on this mission and the work that you’re doing, on some level, it’s a responsibility to put yourself out there because, yes, it’s increasing the awareness of your work. But I can also assure you that it’s also motivating others in their own journey. I think that is perhaps equally as exciting. 

This has been fun, and I look forward to continuing to watch your journey as you progress with the business. Where is the best place that folks can go to connect with you and to continue to follow your work? 

[00:37:27] WN: Oh, that’s so sweet. LinkedIn, I’m on LinkedIn. I’m thinking of actually creating an Instagram account. I was told by somebody in the publishing industry like, “Oh, you should have that if you’re really serious about this.” I’m like, “Okay, cool. I’ll do that.” But, yeah, LinkedIn is a great way to follow me. I don’t have any other. I mean, I do have Facebook, but I don’t really use it. So follow me on LinkedIn. Email me. DM me.

[00:37:53] TU: Great. We will link to that in the show notes. We’ll also link to the website, jasminemedical.com, if folks want to take a look there as well. So thank you so much for taking time to come on the show. I really appreciate it.

[00:38:03] WN: Thank you so much for having me. This has been very fun. 

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[00:38:06] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you, again, for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week. 

[END]

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YFP 279: Finding Your Pharmacist Voice: An Interview with Kim Newlove


Kim Newlove, founder of The Pharmacist’s Voice and host of The Pharmacist’s Voice Podcast, shares how and why she started her business in 2017, how she pivoted from her initial service and business idea, and what myths as a business owner she has found to be untrue. 

About Today’s Guest

Kim Newlove is a pharmacist, voice actor, podcast host, wife, Mom of 2 teenagers, and volunteer.

She earned her Bachelor of Science Degree in Pharmacy from The University of Toledo in 2001, and is an Ohio pharmacist. Kim founded The Pharmacist’s Voice ®, LLC in 2017, and launched The Pharmacist’s Voice ® Podcast in 2019. Her website is thepharmacistsvoice.com.

Finding the right voice for an audio project is important. Kim brings her years of expertise as a pharmacist to her audiobook and voiceover projects. Her delivery style is confident and trustworthy.

The Pharmacist’s Voice ® Podcast is a weekly podcast. It’s available on her website (thepharmacistsvoice.com) and all major podcast players. Kim alternates solo shows and interview shows. She shares her journey from pharmacist to voice actor and interviews a variety of people who use their voices advocate for something, educate in some way, or entertain so that listeners are inspired to use their voices too.

In her spare time, Kim enjoys spending time with family, playing Ticket to Ride Switzerland, swimming, and riding her BMW motorbike.

Episode Summary

This week, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, is joined by Kim Newlove, founder of The Pharmacist’s Voice and host of The Pharmacist’s Voice Podcast. In this episode, Tim and Kim discuss Kim’s journey from graduation in 2001 to the start of her business in 2017, the student loan debt picture in 2001 compared to today, and the power of having a plan for handling student debt. Kim explains the reasoning behind working part-time in her career and the financial decisions she and her husband made that tie into the success of her business journey. Coming from a position of financial strength because of sound financial decisions early in her career, Kim was confident investing in herself and starting her business. Kim shares the motivation behind The Pharmacist’s Voice and The Pharmacist’s Voice podcast, what inspired the name of her business, and how she was able to distill a business idea that worked for her as a mother, wife, and pharmacist. While Kim’s original business idea of narrating continuing education journals has not yet come to fruition, she and Tim talk about the evolution of her business offerings and how she was able to pivot to medical narration, e-learning, and voiceovers. Kim and Tim wrap up the episode by busting some entrepreneurship myths and shedding light on the hard work behind what it is to produce a podcast and run a company. 

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRO]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. 

This week, I had the opportunity to sit down with Kim Newlove, Founder of the Pharmacist’s Voice and host of the Pharmacist’s Voice Podcast. During the show, we discuss how and why she started her own business, the Pharmacist’s Voice, in 2017, how she had a pivot early on from her initial service and business idea, and what myths as a business owner she has found to be untrue. 

Now, before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 250 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized to the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. 

Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Kim Newlove. 

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:15] TU: Kim, welcome to the show. 

[00:01:15] KN: Hi, Tim. Good to be here.

[00:01:19] TU: Well, so excited to have you. Spent a long time in the making. We talked back in the winter, and then we had a chance to connect in person at Ohio Pharmacists Association meeting. I came on your podcast and really excited for the opportunity to talk several different things with you, entrepreneurship. We’ll talk a little bit about family. We’ll talk about personal finance. I want to start with your career and some of your career background. So where did you go to pharmacy school, when did you graduate, and what ultimately drew you into the profession?

[00:01:50] KN: Okay. If I leave anything out, remind me. I went to the University of Toledo College of Pharmacy. I graduated in 2001 with my Bachelor of Science in Pharmacy degree. I never got my PharmD. What was the next question, Tim?

[00:02:06] TU: So where you went to school, you answered that. Go Rockets, right? Toledo, 2001. 

[00:02:11] KN: That’s right. Go Rockets. 

[00:02:12] TU: When you graduated, you answered that. What drew you into the profession?

[00:02:16] KN: What drew me into the profession most was my Uncle Tom inviting me to shadow him when I was an eighth grade junior high student at Eastwood Junior High School in Somerville, Ohio. He invited me to watch him as a surgery pharmacist at St. V’s, which is one of the major hospitals in the Toledo area. I also, of course, love to help people, and I was good at math and science, and I really felt like I had all of those attributes that a pharmacist needed, being trustworthy and being interested in helping people and being intelligent and all the things.

[00:02:56] TU: So some of our listeners, they wouldn’t be aware but maybe interested to know. We share a Northwest Ohio connection. So my wife, Jess, is from the Bowling Green Perrysburg area. You’re, obviously, in Northwest Ohio as well. A little Rockets-Falcons rivalry that’s going on between Bowling Green and Toledo. So you came, and you snuck in right before the PharmD requirement, right? Because that would have been early 2000s. So you came in right before that.

[00:03:22] KN: Right. I was – One of the last classes to graduate was my class. I graduated in ’01 and, I think, in ’04. That was the cutoff. My brother, who’s also a pharmacist, graduated in ’03 with his bachelor’s. Never got his PharmD either. Yeah. It’s a great school. But, yeah, our cutoff didn’t end until ’04 for some reason.

[00:03:44] TU: And we’re going to talk in a bit about the Pharmacist’s Voice. For those that are watching this interview, they can see your background behind you. We’re going to talk about the business that you’ve created, what you’re doing, why you started it, what you offer. But before we get into that, give us some of the career journey because I think this is a really interesting part of your story and your family’s story, as we’re going to talk some personal finance here in a little bit. 2001, you graduate. It wouldn’t be till 2017, correct, that you launched the business? 

[00:04:14] KN: Correct. 

[00:04:15] TU: So give us the CliffsNotes synopsis version of your pharmacy career from graduation prior to starting the business.

[00:04:24] KN: Oh, boy. Oh, boy. There’s some retail in there, some hospitals, some compounding, and some behavioral health. I started off working at a small hospital. The schedule wasn’t right for me as a newlywed. I got married about six weeks after graduation in June of 2001. I passed the boards right away, like two days before I got married, which was kind of cool, yay me. Everybody was saying, “Congratulations on getting married. Did you pass the boards?” “Yeah.” “Okay. Congratulations on that too.” 

Then after that, about a year of trialing out, working at a small hospital and the hours not working out, I switched to working for Walgreens, and I worked part time at that hospital for about five months to transition my replacement in. Then I was working full-time at Walgreens for not – Well, sorry. Not for nine years. I worked at Walgreens for nine years, only worked full-time for about one year. Then I had my first child. 

While I was working part time at Walgreens, I worked at a small compounding pharmacy. If nobody would know the name, we got bought out by a competitor. But the focus was respiratory solutions for inhalation, and I coincidentally had baby number two, right, as we were getting bought out. I never went back to that job. I didn’t stop working for Walgreens until 2011. When I stopped working at Walgreens in 2011, our agreement, my husband and my agreement, was that I would stay home for one year. Then I would start looking for another job. 

I started looking for another job immediately because I can’t follow my own plans sometimes. But I didn’t get the jobs that I tried out for, so I truly stayed home for that one year. It was after that one year that my husband started getting other opportunities in climbing the ladder, and I ended up staying at home. 

Well, fast forward to the year 2015, I couldn’t just stay at home, Tim. I had to do something. So I started volunteering quite a bit. I had already volunteered some with the University of Toledo. While I was volunteering, I got connected with a woman who invited me to be her relief pharmacist in – I think it was October or November of 2015. I had been off the market for four and a half years. I felt a little rusty. But the job she offered me was really in line with some of my volunteer work, and it was at a behavioral health hospital. 

I worked there for one year. She moved on. I was her relief pharmacist. I didn’t feel comfortable staying without her, so I ended that job, and I didn’t work again until I started my company.

[00:07:02] TU: So we’re going to come back to that in a little bit. My first question for you, though, is student loan debt in 2001. A very different picture than what it is here in 2022, unfortunately, even if we adjust for inflation, right, which is something that we’re all thinking about at the moment. The numbers are drastically different. 

Our listeners know today, graduates coming out on average about $175,000 of debt. Often that will be much higher than that if we factor in undergrad debt and other expenses for those who go to private school. So tell us about, for you, even though that debt may have been a significant part of the journey, numbers were much smaller, right?

[00:07:39] KN: Numbers were much smaller. Yes. You know, Tim, every time you say that number, when I listen to your podcast, it moves up. 

[00:07:46] TU: It does. 

[00:07:47] KN: It used to be like 170. Now, we’re up to 175. For students listening to this, much respect. I know that’s a huge burden to take on. My student loan debt, I added this up before our interview here. From what my records show, I had $23,888.28 in student loan debt. I used 13,650 for actually paying tuition and all that. Then the disbursements were a little over $10,000, and I lived off that. I bought my books, my gas for my car at, what was it, 97 cents a gallon back then. I had to live off of that. 

I actually went back to my earnings history too to find out how much I made as an intern. In 1999, I made $10,000 as an intern, which was pretty good. But you know you got to live and, yeah, the student loan debt is real. I paid it off, I want to say, in less than two years. 

[00:08:47] TU: Yeah, yeah. I think for many graduates today, the number in and of itself is a lot to work through in terms of monthly payment. Obviously, right now, we’ve got a pause on those payments, which has certainly helped a lot of people. But it’s not only the dollar amount. It’s the paralyzing nature of the feeling that can come from that that can cloud the ability to make other decisions. 

So one of the things we often talk with individuals about is, yes, we’ve got to attack the number or perhaps pursued something like loan forgiveness. But we also need to make sure we don’t underestimate the power of having a plan. Even if that number doesn’t change a whole lot next week, something is drastically different if we can start to put a plan in place, so we can begin to move forward and consider that piece of the puzzle as we also look at other parts of the financial plan. 

I do want to come back to one thing that you mentioned because I think that we often assume that pharmacists are the breadwinner in the family. Pharmacists are the ones that are going to be making a significant income, especially if it’s two incomes that are in the household. You mentioned something that I thought was really important to touch on that others may be considering, which is you mentioned your husband and his income opportunities. Before we hit record, you mentioned several points of his career, where he had an opportunity to kind of level up to the next level. 

I think that was an interesting approach that you guys decided on as a family together that there was going to be an investment in his career and some of the upward mobility and upward nature of that income, which may not have necessarily been there with a pharmacist income. Can you talk more about how you got to that decision and why that was best for your family? 

[00:10:30] KN: Yes. If I leave anything out and you need clarifying details, please let me know. My story is very different. I mean, I come from a place of currently being a stay-at-home parent. Tim, you talk about pharmacists often being the breadwinner because they earn more money than their partner. I am a pharmacist by training. My husband is a mechanical engineer by training. 

When we started having kids, which happened pretty darn quick after I graduated, within like 18 months of graduation, I started having the kids. We talked about who’s going to stay at home or what are we going to do about daycare. At the time, we lived in Toledo, Ohio, which some people may think of as, “Oh, it’s big urban area. How can you trust people?” There were plenty of great choices in Toledo. Did we have anything set up? No. I worked full-time, seven on, seven off as a midnight pharmacist. I made a great income. 

As I mentioned before, when we started out, I also had a part-time job in the first five months of my employment as a pharmacist as a part-time hospital pharmacist. I had this income. My top earnings ever was like $97,000. I looked at my husband after we had this baby and I said, “I can make at least $97,000 working full-time as a pharmacist. Let’s look at how much you make.” Just disclosing how much he made in the year 2003 when our first son was born, it was around $60,000. He made significantly less than me. He said, “You know what? I don’t have a ceiling on how much I can make. But you kind of seem like you do.”

That was something I had never thought of. Being the mechanical engineer, a very data-driven person, and just somebody who I would actually listen to, I listened to him. What I did was I became a part-time pharmacist, full-time mom. Could I have gotten daycare? Could I have gotten somebody to care for my kids? Yeah, I could have. But we decided as a couple, that was not what we were going to do. Plus, we wanted to have another kiddo in about two years. That was just our plan. 

So I thought it was pretty hard being pregnant and being a pharmacist, standing on my feet all day, with the challenges of going to the bathroom and eating and drinking. Why would I bring that upon myself, and I’m exhausted just having a newborn? So we decided his 60,000, plus my going part-time, we thought would be maybe anywhere from 25,000 to 50,000, that would equal what my full-time income would be if I just went out and was the sole breadwinner, and he would stay at home and make no income. 

But you got to keep in mind. He had that opportunity to climb up the ladder, not just in title but in earnings. So I took that leap of faith, Tim, and I let my career take a backseat. I wasn’t that far into my career, and I haven’t accomplished that much. I didn’t have as much to lose, I guess you could say. So that is one of the factors that played into that.

[00:13:45] TU: Kim, what really stands out there to me is even in this case, you decided that for you and your family, it was going to be your career that was going to be a little bit on the back seat. Obviously, you mentioned your husband realizing that there was perhaps some more upward mobility in role over time. But even if those roles were flipped, right? Because I think there can be a lot of pride that can come through, especially for the pharmacist that may be listening. They can, “Hey, wait a minute. I just invested you know, $200,000, plus 6, 8, 10 years of my time,” and maybe this is something that they are considering as well. 

But whether it’s like your situation or even if the roles were reversed and your husband were the one to say, “Hey, I’m going to let my career take a backseat because this is what we want to do as our family,” I admire the intentionality, and I’m sure these were in-depth conversations that happened at the time. But really just the openness and the transparency and the intentionality of saying, “Okay, what do we want as our family? What do we think is best for our family unit?” 

That could be and is different for many different families, and there is no right or wrong answer. I think that’s so important for everyone to hear. But really, what is it for you that you and your family want and how do you ultimately be able to set up the infrastructure and the system that works best for you. So I really respect and admire that. My wife, Jess, and I have had a lot of those similar conversations along the way as well. 

You know what’s interesting, though? So I’m reflecting in 2022, and we think about what a pharmacist is making today. Your theory held true, right? So has the pharmacist income gone up since? You mentioned the $97,000. It has. But if you factor in inflation and other things, it really has had a ceiling, right? It really has had a ceiling, and I think we’re continuing to see that with some exceptions, and there certainly are some areas of practice where that may not necessarily be the case. 

So my next question for you is you decide in 2017 that you’re going to use your pharmacy background and degree in a very different way, in a nontraditional way, not only in starting your own business but in using your voice and under the brand what would become the Pharmacist’s Voice. My question here is what was the genesis of the Pharmacist’s Voice? I don’t know the answer to this question, so I’m excited to learn the answer. How did the idea come to be and what ultimately led you to begin down this path of starting your own business?

[00:16:13] KN: The genesis of the company name, let’s start with that. It came incredibly organically because I wanted to take my background as a pharmacist and my speaking voice or my voice and writing and combine them to do something in commerce, creating a company that did something. I knew I wanted to use my voice. Now, the why, why did I want to use my voice? That is like the best part. 

I have a son with autism. He is currently 19 years old, almost 19 and a half. I can’t believe it. He is nonverbal, and the thing that happens to a lot of people who have a child with challenges happened to me. If you’ve ever seen people on the news that have a child in a wheelchair, and the parent becomes a marathon runner, and they run those marathons together, and the parent is pushing the wheelchair. Or if you meet somebody who has a child who ends up being a deaf child, a child that’s hearing impaired. That adult, that parent learns sign language and becomes an advocate, right?

Having a person in my life who cannot speak, he cannot read, write, or speak that we know of, it really inspired me to respect my own voice and recognize the power of having a voice and using it. There are so many people that don’t take their passions and their strengths and use them. You have a responsibility to use your passions and your strength to do something that matters. Why wouldn’t I take my background as a pharmacist and my speaking voice put them together and make the Pharmacist’s Voice? I’ll tell you, there’s so much more that I want to say about that, but I think I should probably pause and just let you ask your questions.

[00:18:10] TU: Well, I think what I’m really curious about is you just said that there’s so many folks that don’t take their passions and their strengths and take action on it. You mentioned responsibility. I love that challenge because everyone may have a different passion or strength or a different challenge and may feel that sense of responsibility and for whatever reason haven’t acted on it. That can look like a million different things. You we’re talking, obviously, about the Pharmacist’s Voice and the business that you started. 

So my question for you is why do you think people typically are not taking action? Why are they not acting on that responsibility to be able to move forward with that passion, with that strength that they have? I mean, certainly a multitude of reasons. But if we distill it down to a couple, what do you think is typically blocking people from moving forward?

[00:18:59] KN: Man, Tim, you are so lucky I’m an ESTJ. I’m extroverted, right? So I’m not really shy about sharing, and I’m a little judgmental, meaning I’m great at making decisions. So why do people have that problem, that challenge? I want you to know, anybody listening, I’m not judging you if you have barriers to entry, if you have hang ups. I think it might be part personality. 

My personality, if you look at the Enneagram, if anybody knows that personality test, I’m an eight. I am the challenger. I don’t want to say fearless, but I’m the person that sees a problem and takes it as a challenge and wants to conquer it. I’m not the perfectionist, which is the number one, which is my husband, and he has a hard time with his perfectionism. A lot of times, I have to point it out to him and say, “Are you doing this because you don’t understand the first step? Or is it because you’re hesitant? Or have you made a list of pros and cons? I mean, help me understand.” 

For example, he lost his job at a company he was with for more than 12 and a half years in April of 2020. It was April 30th or May 1st of 2020, right as the pandemic was –

[00:20:27] TU: When it started. Yeah. Geez. Yup. 

[00:20:30] KN: Yeah, yeah. So being the support person I am, I wanted to go out there and like a light switch, turn on the business and say, “Oh, I’m going to go out and make all this money.” But voiceover, what I do the voiceover industry, it’s not like having a light switch. You can’t just turn it on. But anyways, what gets in people’s way is – I want to use my husband as an example. He wants to play a matching game. He is a mechanical engineer by training. So when he thinks about getting another job, he wants to match the words mechanical engineer with somebody who’s looking for a mechanical engineer. 

What I taught him about just all the things that I know from marketing and communications and storytelling is that what you really need to think about is all those things in the Ikigai. What do you love to do? What does the world need? What can you get paid to do? All those things. What do you value? Do you want to have to travel to Asia all the time, which is what he was doing two to three weeks at a time, up to five times a year? It was hard on our family. So anyways, that was one of the things, perfectionism.

[00:21:44] TU: Well, and we know that the matching game and perfectionism doesn’t go too well with entrepreneurship or starting something new. So my question for you here is I talked with many pharmacists, probably one or two a week that I can tell they’re on fire, and they’re passionate about something. That something could be another W-2 job. That’s something could be, “Hey, I’ve got this great idea for a book or a podcast or this nonprofit.” I had somebody messaged me recently about an idea they have for a nonprofit or a business idea, whether that’s a service-based or a product-based business. 

But when the conversation moves to, well, what’s next, what’s next, I can tell instantly the tone of voice shifts. Fear starts to come into the equation. More often than not, there starts to be a paralyzing reality of like, “I don’t know what the next step is.” So I’m thinking about those number one Enneagram perfectionists that are out there versus the eight challengers, where you might have an idea, and it’s not all fully fleshed out. Great, I’m going to do one thing that’s the next thing, just to get momentum on this. Then it’ll be messy, and it’ll get better, and I’ll get better, and I’ll get better. I get that, but a lot of people are not comfortable with that. 

So my question is for folks that are listening and saying, “I have an idea. I want to do X, Y, or Z. But there’s 15 things that I’m not sure exactly where do I go next,” like what advice would you have for them? I mean, even if you think about the Pharmacist’s Voice, and I’m looking at your background, and you’ve got nice logos, and you’ve got services and offerings and web things and courses we’ll talk about, that can be overwhelming. So like what is the next step, and how do people discern that?

[00:23:28] KN: Oh, Tim. This is such a great question. I’m so excited to answer this. I had to do this too. I have that problem too. In fact, I have a whole podcast episode about how I funneled all my ideas down to one, and it comes down to, okay, if you can imagine a funnel. Everybody listening to this has been to pharmacy school or their students, right? I mean, think about compounding lab, and you’ve got a funnel. In the top of the funnel, it’s broader than the bottom of the funnel. You put all of those ideas down in the top of the funnel, and you’re going to distill it down to just one. That’s going to pop out the end, and that’s going to be your one that you run with. 

I had all these ideas, and I just put them in that funnel. I mentally worked my way through each of them to find out if they were even possible. In doing that, I figured out that my number one barrier to using probably four or five of my ideas was childcare. I have a child who, at the time, was only – Was he 15? I think he was only 15. But still, rapidly approaching adulthood, can’t read, write, or speak. I’m going to be taking care of this person. I’m going to be as guardian. I’m going to be his full-time caregiver, until death parts us. I’m not trying to be morbid. Sometimes, when you have those constraints, it makes all your decisions that much easier. 

So when I found out that childcare seemed to be my biggest barrier, I realized I needed to find something I could do in the gig economy. It was just that easy, and I knew through my passions, through respecting the voice, and wanting to do something with my voice, that, heck, yeah, I could continue to volunteer when I have time. People don’t expect you to show up when you volunteer 100%. You let them know the expectations. If they can deal with it, they let you continue to volunteer, right? It’s okay to volunteer. You discover your passions that way. 

But then in going through mentally all these ideas, I figured out that I could not go to people’s houses and help them with their medication lists and cleaning up their closets. What if they were running late? What if I was running late? What if there was a school delay or a closing or whatever? I had a sick kid. I would have to cancel on them, and then making it up would be so hard. So anyways, all those things really added up. 

Then talking to other people, Tim, that’s so important. All of your listeners who are interested in entrepreneurship should really be talking to people who do the thing that they want to do. It’s common sense, but it’s also great advice because when you talk to people that do the thing – For example, I wanted to go to patients’ houses, help them clean out their medication closets, and help them make medication lists, just doing some basic MTM type stuff, then cash pay. So I wouldn’t necessarily have to use the insurance company’s definition of MTM. 

I found out that in Ohio, we needed to have a TDDD, a Terminal Distributor of Dangerous Drugs license. I think it was a level two or something. 

[00:26:40] TU: Two. Yeah, you’re right. Category two. 

[00:26:42] KN: Yeah. In order to have patient data in my home or on my computer. Honestly, I didn’t want to deal with that. So in talking to Sue Paul, who we both know through the Ohio Pharmacists Association, she’s an Ohio pharmacist and pharmacogenomics queen, I learned some of the issues that she deals with. I didn’t want to deal with those issues. So again, just fleshing out those ideas like how would I actually make this happen? What are the barriers I would come across? Who already does this? What are the challenges and the rewards? Yeah. Just flushing everything out. 

Out the bottom of the funnel came something where I would use my voice, and I didn’t know that I would be in the voiceover industry when I started. I ended up going into voiceover because my original idea didn’t even work. So I had to take that original idea that came out of the bottom of the funnel and pivot it to something else, which isn’t always fun because you have to admit failure. But you got to have a short memory about it. Kind of like when you’re up to bat and you strike out. You strike out. You still got that third pitch. You might fall or you might have a home run. So just keep swinging. 

[00:27:52] TU: I love that. No, it’s great. I love the practical advice that you gave, in terms of the funnel and having the ideas and talking with others, which I think not only helps you speak out loud your idea, which gets you thinking about it more, internalizing it more. It clarifies your message. Sometimes, I’ll have a great idea. More often than not, the day ends, I go home, and I’ll, “Jess, Jess, Jess. I got this idea. I got this idea.” Then I hear myself say it out loud. Then 24 hours passes, and I’m like, “That was really not a great idea.” But it was in my head, and I started talking out loud. 

Or sometimes, when I have those conversations, the ideas start to crystallize, or she’ll add to it. What about this? What about that? Have you thought about this? Those conversations of people that can help you build upon your idea, that can help you network with other people that have been down that path before, is so powerful. But you said something that the end that I think is so integral for people to remember, which is we have to, on some level, be comfortable with and accepting and embracing some failure along the way. 

I think if we can shift our mind around failure typically has a negative connotation but an opportunity to grow and to learn, but being comfortable with that, and you mentioned the first idea that popped out of the funnel, right? You had to pivot and do something else. Perhaps a whole separate conversation about how we get comfortable with failure. But I think really good advice for folks that are looking to get started because even if you come up with the perfect game plan, guess what, it ain’t going to be perfect. There’s going to be things and bumps along the road that are going to come to be.

[00:29:27] KN: Yeah. You got to have that abundance mindset. 

[00:29:29] TU: That’s right. 

[00:29:30] KN: Like there’s more than one idea here, and it’s okay to flush them out. Write them down too and revisit them because, like you said, Tim, you may come home and talk to your wife, Jess, and say, “I have the best idea.” But then when it comes out of your mouth, that doesn’t sound so good. But she’s kind of like a good sounding board, and she’ll tell you what’s good about it, and maybe you can just write it down. So I hope everybody out there has their own Jess or even a notepad and sleep on it and look at it another day.

[00:29:56] TU: I love it. I love it. We’re now – I’ve got four boys at home. I’ve talked about it before in my podcast, but it’s been fun, as my oldest is now about to be 11, and he’s heard so many of these conversations with my wife and I, just in passing. Just this weekend, he came up with, “Well, Dad, what about this idea? Wouldn’t it save time if we had a toothbrush that had two different brushes, so you could brush the top and the bottom at once? And is that something that could be invented?” I was like, “That’s it, right? You got to throw ideas out there. The process, they evolve and see what happens over time.” 

So as it relates to the Pharmacist’s Voice, what do you offer? What is the business, what’s the offering, and how has that evolved since 2017 to what you’re working on right now?

[00:30:39] KN: Starting in 2017, my original idea was to narrate pharmacy continuing education journals into audio. My original idea didn’t work. I approached all kinds of companies, for example, APHA. I approached the Ohio Pharmacists Association. I approached Pharmacist’s Letter. There were others too. I pitched it to somebody the other day, but I have a little bit more proof of concept now that I’ve been in the voiceover industry. 

But anyways, I didn’t have proof of concept. I didn’t really know what I was talking about. I didn’t know how to record, edit, and produce audio at the time. Everybody said no, and that’s all I needed. It’s not like I gave up early or anything. I just thought if they don’t like this particular idea, let’s try something else. 

What I did was I pivoted, and the first thing I did was when I pivoted, I went to talk to somebody who could teach me how to record, edit, and produce audio. Somebody who I thought could help me with that. I went to a local audio engineer, and he said, “Oh, yeah. We record people here. But I’m the one that records them. I’m the one that edits them. I’m the one that produces the final files and gives them to the client.” That’s a high ticket item right there. It’s expensive. So I thought, “Well, gosh. How can I do this at home?” 

I went on a journey of learning how to record, edit, and produce audio. I’ll tell you, that’s, for me, the hardest thing about having a podcast, hardest thing about producing audio books, which is one of the services I offer. It’s the hardest thing about creating voiceovers. I had to spend a lot of time in the trenches. Believe it or not, pharmacists would be awesome at this. I mean, if that was like part of the thing like, yes, we dispense pills. We make IVs. We mix audio. Pharmacists are very detail-oriented people. 

It turned out, I love it, and I’m great at it. So on my journey, I learned I can record, edit, and produce this. Great. What am I going to talk about? What am I going to produce? One of the things that the audio engineer that I talked to did for me was he connected me to my very first voiceover coach. I thought, “What’s a voiceover coach? I don’t know what this is. I don’t know if I want to do this.” But he said, “You need to learn how to talk and have good mic skills and all these things.” 

So I went to Nancy Wolfson. If you’re going to write this down, just please know that she is more of an advanced instructor, which is what I found out when I started working with her. She focuses on commercial narration. Once I did – I don’t know if it was eight lessons or something like that. I realized I needed to do medical narration because my heart just wasn’t into talking about pantyhose and banks and things that are on the news. Or not on the news. Radio ads or television ads. 

So anyways, I started working with a different coach, and his name’s David Rosenthal, and he’s with the Global Voice Acting Academy. Definitely look that one up because they do teach young voice actors, if you’re interested, and he helped me with medical narration. He’s like, “Yeah, you can say the words great.” I don’t want to paint him in a bad light, but he said things that I needed to hear. He said that, “You basically don’t know how to deliver. You know how to say the words just fine. You sound like you know what you’re talking about. But then other parts of the delivery are not so great.” During that whole discovery period and learning, I took group classes. I took private classes. I made my first demo. Moving forward, I have worked with other coaches too. 

Now, how did audiobooks come into this? Audiobooks came into this because if you can do audiobooks, you can do e-learning, which is what I have learned. That is what I originally wanted to do. Narrating pharmacy continuing education journals into audio format is e-learning. So I learned how to do audiobooks and e-learning. At the same time, I’m an audiobook narrator. I narrate books that are on Audible, Amazon, and iTunes. They’re for sale. 

Two examples are IMPACT Pharmacist: Start Your Own Wellness Practice and Leave Your Retail Pharmacy Job Behind by Asha and Eric Bohannon. I’ve also narrated Perimenopause: The Savvy Sister’s Guide to Hormone Harmony. So as I’ve been going through this journey, I have been figuring out what people want to pay me to do.

[00:35:18] TU: Well, I like that too because I think it connects back to what we were talking before. Now, you’ve got service offerings. But I’m guessing those have evolved and changed over time, as you kind of figure out what does the market need and want? What is the market willing to pay for? What are they not willing to pay for? Then, obviously, you start to spread that through word of mouth. 

So again, just a great reminder that as folks are getting started with an idea, where you start and where it goes is going to be an evolution. It is, and you’re going to look back and say, “I can’t believe –” I remember back to my first blog post, November 6th, 2015. I read it recently. Yes, I had a great, great story of our journey. But, wow, like writing had a lot to be desired for. I think back to the first podcast that we did in 2017. So it’s a journey. It’s an evolution, and I’m hopeful that we’ll say the same thing five years down the road as well. 

If folks want to learn more about the work you’re doing at the Pharmacist’s Voice and the offerings you have, they can go to thepharmacistsvoice.com. We’ll link to that in the show notes as well. You mentioned your summer project before we hit record, is you’re working on an online course. Tell us more about that.

[00:36:25] KN: Yes. Thanks for the opportunity. If you go to kimnewlove.com, you can see my current online course offering. It’s a drug name pronunciation course, believe it or not, and it’s called Pronounce Drug Names Like a Pro. The next online course, which I have not released yet, but it will be on kimnewlove.com, hopefully, by the end of August. That’s my goal. It will be a behind the scenes look at the Pharmacist’s Voice Podcast. The Pharmacist’s Voice, of course, is my company, but I am a business with a podcast, much like Your Financial Pharmacist. 

So the name of my podcast is the Pharmacist’s Voice Podcast. A lot of people ask me all the time, how do I start a podcast? How do you make your podcast? So this is going to be how I make my podcast, not how you need to make yours. Because a lot of people just want to know what goes into it. What does it look like to edit audio? Because you’re taking a visual representation of something you can hear, and not everybody really understands how you can manipulate something that you can see, but you end up hearing it. It’s really something. So, yeah, that’s my summer project, Tim. Thanks for asking.

[00:37:38] TU: Well, I’m looking forward to that coming out because I have a lot of folks that I talk with. They have interesting ideas or thinking about starting a podcast, and they often get hung up in some of the, “Well, what equipment should I use, and what platform should I use to record?” There’s a million options that are out there, and I like your approach of kind of a behind the scenes of what you’re doing, which I think what will give people some structure and some hooks to be able to hang some things on but not necessary the only way to be able to do or release a podcast show.

[00:38:07] KN: Yes, I agree. Tim, just to add something real quick, that, hopefully, is going to feed into me training pharmacists or healthcare providers, small cohorts, at a time how to start their own podcasts, if there is interest. So send those people my way. I would love to help them. It’d be kind of like a white glove type thing, where you have an idea of what you want to do and you want to flatten that learning curve. I can totally help you do it. I mean, I have my own podcast. I’m on episode 160-something. I know how to do this.

[00:38:37] TU: I love it. I love it. I love it. One of the things I wanted to ask you about is I personally feel that we’re in a period of time where there’s somewhat of an over glorification of entrepreneurship, and I love entrepreneurship. I think it’s something that the skills that are within owning your own business and starting your own business are things that everyone can learn something from, whether or not you have your own business. So, obviously, I’m a huge fan and have really found great benefit in my own journey. 

But I think there are sometimes some myths that come to be with owning your own business that people think, “Oh, well. If I just own my own business, like everything would be okay.” So my question for you is like is there a myth or two that you have found in your own journey and owning your own business that you’d like to share with the audience?

[00:39:33] KN: Oh, my gosh. How many do I get to share?

[00:39:36] TU: Go with it.

[00:39:38] KN: Okay, all right. Thank you for the opportunity to share this because with what I do now, which is voiceover, I do medical narration for pharmaceutical companies, biotech. I do e-learning, I do explainer videos. I do all this. People think you can just plug a microphone into a computer and talk, and the Brink’s truck will backup and dump a bunch of money in your driveway. That, I would say, is the number one myth about what I do now. What I do is voiceover, and it is not like that. 

There are actual studies now for the voiceover industry to demonstrate the people who have been in the business, who are just starting out, who work part-time like me, typically make $8,000 or less when they first start out. 

[00:40:22] TU: Per year. 

[00:40:22] KN: I work very part-time, and I make less than $8,000 a year, and I will probably say that. But it is in increasing, and I have negotiated $10,000 deals, $20,000 deals, and just the projects never went into production. So I’ve had great opportunities. But, oh, my gosh, the ups and downs of the gig economy are crazy. So I just want to point that out, and I would say you’re not going to make $100,000 right away, for sure. 

Then as an entrepreneur, I would say there’s a lot of risk, but you have to be smart about it. You have to not dump all of your savings into the shiny objects that you see. You got to have boundaries. If somebody says, “Oh, this microphone is the best in the business,” you find out what’s a starter microphone and see if you even like doing it. Yeah. If there’s anything else I can tell you, let me know because I’ll tell you. There are so many things, so many myths and misconceptions about voiceover industry alone. But entrepreneurship, I mean, gosh, I could go on and on about that, in general. Let me know what you want to know, Tim.

[00:41:36] TU: Smart risk resonates with me. I tend to have some shiny object syndrome myself. I think many entrepreneurs do, and it could be a new piece of equipment. It can be a new piece of software, right? And a new solution or course. I think one of the challenges as you continue to grow in your business journey and you grow your network and you talk with other people, inevitably, you come across conversations like the one we’re having, and someone may say, “Well, I use this tool or I use this software. I use this.” You’re like, “Oh, I need that,” right? I need that piece of equipment, that piece of software. So sometimes, the answer is yes. That’s going to be a valuable solution. But really taking smart risks and making sure you’re staying on course with the core offering and not getting distracted by that, I think, is really, really smart. 

Related to smart risk, I want to wrap up our conversation by bringing together the personal financial journey with your business journey. When I talk with a lot of aspiring pharmacy entrepreneurs, one of the hurdles that typically comes up is the intersection between the personal financial journey and being able to start the business with confidence. That could be because of student loan debt. That could be because they have a young family, and there’s lots of competing financial expenses. That could be because they feel like they’re behind on retirement, and they don’t feel like they’re in a financial position of strength to be able to lean into their business idea. 

So my question for you, as you started the journey in 2017, how did your personal finance plan intersect with your ability to start the business and to feel confident making that jump forward?

[00:43:10] KN: I love this question so much. When – Oh, boy. We took Financial Peace University, the Dave Ramsey class at our church in 2013, and that made a big difference in how we attacked debt. I would say that the mortgage payoff was in the horizon. Like we were almost there when I started my business. I started my business November of 2017, right at the end of the year. Then we paid off our mortgage March of 2019. 

Having that financial freedom and really, honestly, extra space in my mind to let myself dream about what could be was huge. So I would say we started off investing in our futures through 401(k)s and Roth IRAs early. Okay. My husband as soon as he got a job that had a 401(k), I believe he was at least doing employer match and then eventually maxing out. Currently, maxes out. I think 18,500 is his current contribution per year, and that’s the maximum, I believe, he’s allowed per some law. Right, Tim?

[00:44:28] TU: It’s up a little bit in 2022. I think it’s a little bit north of 20,000, 20,500. But he may –

[00:44:33] KN: Okay. I’m sure he’ll be there soon. 

[00:44:34] TU: I don’t know. But, yeah, he probably is. He probably is. Yeah.

00:44:37KN: Yeah. But then I had my Roth IRA that I started in college because we had a speaker come to class and during our management and marketing class. That guy, I just called him up afterwards and I said, “Hey, you want to be my financial planner,” and he did. He became my financial planner. His company is still my financial planning company 22 years later, and I have all that growth and that trust and that relationship.

[00:45:02] TU: So slow steps to building the financial plan. You mentioned in 2017, specifically, the business. Having that home paid off was a big part of feeling confident to have the margin to get the business off the ground. I think that’s great because I think some sometimes every business is different, right? If somebody is developing a product-based business or a business that requires a lot of inventory, there might be a lot more upfront costs. 

I think of what we started at YFP. I believe of what you’ve done as well. Certainly, some upfront costs but maybe not to the magnitude of a product-based business, where you may need to have some more upfront capital. But nonetheless need to have a solid financial foundation in place to be able to make that journey and to do it with confidence.

[00:45:45] KN: Yes. Thank you for summarizing that. I feel like there’s so many little details that I could bring up. But, yeah, I don’t know how much into the weeds you want me to get. I think that if somebody is going to take a risk, a calculated risk, and start a business, you need to do your homework. I did my homework to find out. Once I discovered the voiceover industry, can I afford to do this? I found out that the microphone that I wanted was only like 199 bucks. I needed a stand. But I needed training. It was like $200 a pop for an hour. I needed a demo. It costs X number of dollars. Without a mortgage, we had that available capital, and we were still investing. 

Yeah. Over time, the investments – I mean, if you are faithful and you have a good strategy, you will eventually get closer to your retirement goal. But you need to have a goal in the first place, and you got to start somewhere, and I highly recommend that Dave Ramsey Financial Peace University and also getting somebody that you trust to help you with your journey.

[00:46:50] TU: Great advice. Kim, this has been a lot of fun, and I appreciate you taking time to come on the show. Again, for folks that want to learn more about what Kim’s up to, you can go to thepharmacistsvoice.com and also visit kimnewlove.com, and keep up to date with the newest course that she’s working on starting a podcast. So, Kim, thanks so much for coming on the show.

[00:47:09] KN: Thank you for having me, Tim. Take care.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[00:47:12] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you, again, for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week. 

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YFP 278: YFP Planning Case Study #4: Selling a Pharmacy and Leaving a Legacy Before Transitioning Into Retirement


YFP Co-Founder & Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, CFP®, RLP® is joined by YFP Planning Lead Planners, Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA®, and Robert Lopez, CFP®, to discuss selling a pharmacy and leaving a legacy before transitioning into retirement

About Today’s Guests

Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA®

Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA® is a Lead Planner at YFP Planning. She enjoys time with her husband and two sons, riding her bike, running, and keeping after her pup ‘Fred Rogers.’ Kelly loves to cheer on her favorite team, plan travel, and ironically loves great food but does not enjoy cooking at all. She volunteers in her community as part of the Chambersburg Rotary. Kelly believes that there are no quick fixes to financial confidence, and no guarantees on investment returns, but there is value in seeking trusted advice to get where you want to go. Kelly’s mission is to help clients go confidently toward their happy place.

Robert Lopez, CFP®

Robert Lopez, CFP®, is a Lead Planner at YFP Planning. Along with his team members, he helps YFP Planning clients on their financial journey to live their best lives. To go along with his CFP® designation, Robert has a B.S. in Finance and an M.S. in Family Financial Planning. Prior to his career in financial planning, Robert worked as an Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technician in the United States Air Force. Although no longer on active duty, he still participates as a member of the Air Force Reserves. When not working, Robert enjoys being outdoors, playing co-ed volleyball and kickball, catching a game of ultimate frisbee, or hiking with his wife Shirley, young son Spencer, and their dogs, Meeko and Willow. 

Episode Summary

In this week’s episode, YFP Co-Founder & Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, CFP®, RLP® is joined by YFP Planning Lead Planners, Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA®, and Robert Lopez, CFP®, to discuss YFP Planning Case Study #4. In this case study, Tim, Kelly, and Robert delve into the financial details of a fictitious family, the Patels. Aman Patel is a 59-year-old independent pharmacy owner looking to sell his pharmacy to his daughter, Jessie. Jessie currently works on staff at the pharmacy. Amin’s wife, Hannah, is a teacher with questions about her retirement pension and social security claiming strategies. Amin and Hannah also own a rental property they are looking to sell and want to know how best to use the proceeds of that sale as they are approaching retirement. Together, Tim, Kelly, and Robert cover the details of the Patels’ retirement timeline. They dive deep into how the Patel family will need to coordinate with a CPA and an attorney to best structure the succession plan for the pharmacy with considerations for both Jessie, who has student debt, and themselves as pre-retirees. Lastly, they explain planning options for the Patel family’s investments and insurance policies as they approach their transition to retirement. 

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRO]

[00:00:00] TB: You’re listening to the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, a show all about inspiring you, the pharmacy professional, on your path towards achieving financial freedom. Hi, I’m Tim Baker, and today I chat with YFP Planning’s lead planners, Kelly Reddy-Heffner and Robert Lopez, to walk through our fourth case study of a fictitious family, the Patels. 

Aman Patel is 59 and is an independent pharmacy owner, who was looking to sell his pharmacy to his daughter, Jesse, who currently works on staff at the pharmacy. We discuss the Patels’ retirement timeline and how they’ll need to coordinate with an attorney and CPA to best structure the succession plan to Jessie. Aman’s wife, Hannah, is 55 and works as a teacher. At retirement, she’ll receive a pension and has questions of how to claim it, along with how to claim Social Security. 

We also discuss questions about what they should do with their rental property and how they should handle the proceeds, whether they should pay down debt or invest. Finally, we discuss their investments and insurance policies, as they approach this very important transition. 

[EPISODE]

[00:00:57] TB: What’s up, everyone? Welcome to our fourth case study in our series. Glad to be back with you. We’re going to today go through the Patels. The Patels are going to be a little bit of a different case. So in the past, we’ve through a couple in their 30s, a couple in their 40s, a couple in their 60s. Now, we’re actually going to talk about Aman Patel and Hannah Patel, who are a couple in their 50s, who were actually a pharmacy owner. So I’m glad to welcome back Kelly and Robert to go through this case study. Guys, what’s going on?

[00:01:25] KRH: Doing well. 

[00:01:25] RL: Just staying cool out here in Phoenix.

[00:01:29] TB: Awesome. So let’s jump into our guy. So like I said, we’re going to be talking about the Patels and what they’re looking at as they approach retirement. So, Robert, why don’t you set us up, like we’ve done in previous cases, and kind of go through their overall demographic, what they’re looking at, where they live? Kelly, you’re going to get into goals and debt. Then I’ll kind of take us home with the rest of the balance sheet.

[00:01:50] RL: Yeah. So let’s jump right in. So we have Aman and Hannah Patel. So Aman is a pharmacy owner. He’s 59 years old. The salary he’s pulling out of the business is $150,000 a year. Obviously, as a pharmacy owner, he has no other income. That’s kind of his main source. His wife is a teacher. She’s 55. She makes $75,000 a year. Then she has some tutoring and support on the side, where she makes an additional $10,000 a year. They file their taxes jointly, and they are joining the pharmacy by their daughter, Jesse, who is a 29-year-old single pharmacist, who works through the pharmacy as well. 

They are residents of St. Paul, Minnesota. Their income numbers break down to a gross of $235,000, which breaks down to 19,005 monthly and roughly $9,500 net, beating after taxes, contributions, and insurance. So those expenses break down to roughly like a 40-20-40 fixed expenses, variable expenses, and savings. They’re living in a three-bedroom single-family home that they purchased back in 2005, when the prices were good, and it was a 30-year-mortgage at 5.75%. They were able to refinance in 2012, down to 3.5%, and they have about $155,000 left on that mortgage.

[00:03:04] KRH: All right. In terms of goals, they both want to retire in the next several years. Aman would like to sell the pharmacy to daughter, Jesse, and help her with that transition. Hannah will receive a teacher’s pension. So that is about $2,500 per month. But she doesn’t quite know how to claim that, how it works. Then also, knowing what their Social Security benefit might be as well is important. 

They are interested in no longer having a rental income property and would like to sell that, along with the pharmacy. But they are interested in staying in the St. Paul area. They have questions about paying off their debt, as they’re looking for that financial independence and retirement. Aman wants to golf more regularly and take those trips abroad, and Hannah wants to be more involved with charitable endeavors. They both want to help Jessie as much as possible, both as a new pharmacy owner, and she has some student loan debt as well. 

So the debt in question that we’ll be looking at is that there is still the home equity line of credit that looks like a balance of about 10,000. They’re paying aggressively on that, and it does have the interest rate of the 5%, as Robert mentioned. There is a car note of about 15,000. That has an interest rate of 4%. They’re paying 250 per month on that. Then they do have that mortgage payment for their primary residence, just under $1,400 for that and about 10 years remaining.

[00:04:41] TB: From a wealth-building perspective and, again, kind of bouncing back and forth between the net worth statement, they have about $50,000 in cash in the checking account and then another $75,000 in a high-yield savings account. They have a variety of investment accounts, Roth IRAs for both of them, 403(b) for Hannah, the SEP IRA that Aman has through the pharmacy, and then a taxable account that they’ve been contributing to. 

For the 403(b), Hannah has that, in addition to her pension. She puts about 10% in, which is about $15,000. She’s invested in balanced funds. Aman’s SEP IRA that he puts money into, he tries to target about $1,000 a month or $12,000 a year. He’s more conservative with his allocation. The Roth IRAs they’ve had in recent years contributed to, but they’ve stopped because they’re over the threshold for married filing jointly. Right now, they’re directing all those funds to their joint taxable accounts. So it’s about $1,400 a month or nearly $70,000 a year. Again, in terms of the allocation for the Roth IRAs, bounce more for Hannah, conservative more for Aman. Basically, the taxable account is going to be used to supplement their retirement. 

On the real estate perspective, they do have their primary home that they’ve purchased, and it’s worth about 395,000, with about 155,000 left on the mortgage. They have a rental property, which was their first home that they didn’t sell. Once they purchased the most recent one, that’s worth about 275,000 with no mortgage. Then Aman had did a recent evaluation on the pharmacy, and he thinks that the pharmacy is worth about 750,000. So that’s basically the balance sheet. 

From a wealth protection perspective, Aman has a $1.5 million term policy, life insurance policy that will expire at age 70. Hannah has one quarter of a million dollars that will expire at age 66. Aman has no short-term or long-term disability. Hannah has what she has through an employer, which basically covers 60% short term, 60% long term. Professional liability, Aman has his own policy. Then there’s the documents that definitely need to be dusted off, need to be updated and reviewed, especially with kind of the sale of the business upcoming. So they’re going to have to engage in attorneys for the sale and as the attorney to kind of get that rolling. 

From a tax perspective, Aman has an account he’s used for the last 10 years. Then they’re just concerned about how the taxes are going to be treated related to sell on the business. So they have to kind of navigate that. So miscellaneous things kind of makes additional income, as Kelly said, with school activities, and she might continue to do that post retirement. Cash flow and staffing issues are top issues during the transition. So I’m just making sure that the [inaudible 00:07:25] have the adequate staffing to make sure that Jesse is not killing herself initially. 

They have questions about, when do they – What’s the timing on the rental property? What do they do with the proceeds? Do they invest that? They’re kind of leaning towards more paying off the debt. Then Jesse wants to expand services at the pharmacy to increase lines of revenue. But Aman is less sure. So you kind of have that change management that they’re going to have to negotiate in terms of like who is the boss and when and what that looks like. 

So a lot of stuff going here, guys. Kelly, I’ll start with you. What would be some of the things that jump off the page for you in terms of what we need to tackle with regard to the financial plan?

[00:08:08] KRH: I mean, I guess the top priority would be the sale of the pharmacy, since it relates to funds they’d have available for retirement, also helping to take care of Jesse in the process as well. This certainly would speak to needing an attorney to be involved in some tax planning as well. But I guess one of the things to think through would be like how much – Jesse has student loans. Her resources might not be robust to do an outright sale, if the value of the pharmacy is $750,000. So sometimes, those family sales can be structured over time, deciding if there’s an interest rate or as part of it a gift. It would all be things that would be important to think about. 

It may be that smaller increments would be helpful for the family, in terms of planning as well, just to keep that tax liability for Aman and Hannah a little bit more manageable from year to year. So I guess that’s where I would start is getting some professional input to see what their options are, what an interest rate might look like, and how Jesse might be able to facilitate payment. That might also touch on the question of who’s making decisions. If it’s a partial buyout, if – I think those are always important things. Like the non-dollar and cents is just some of those logistics about how decisions will be made, who is going to be the board of directors, how to transition out. If you still have kind of a foot in the door, what does that mean in terms of your input and say?

[00:09:47] TB: Yeah. This is definitely one of those instances where as the CFP, I think you’re trying to quarterback in bringing different professionals because, obviously, from a legal perspective, from a tax perspective, an attorney, a CPA are going to have insight in terms of how to best structure this, and then kind of herd the cats along with a financial plan to see, okay, how does this all fit together? 

But, yeah, timing of like the sale. Is it a complete sale? Is it something that invests over time? How does the tax work in terms of capital gains on the sale of that? How do you structure a promissory note? Is there money down? Is Jesse taking less of a salary and doing more sweat equity? Or is she kind of being paid as an independent pharmacist would at a market rate? So those are all things I think that like those would be questions that bringing in other professionals to help kind of navigate that. 

Rob, I don’t know your take, but I think like three to five years, I think the time is now to start those conversations because I think it’s going to – Especially with an asset like this, it’s going to take longer than they think. So outside of kind of bringing in some of the professionals to start asking and answering some of these questions, what else would you want to know more about, whether it’s goals or what that looks like, with regard to their planning in kind of this transition that’s coming up?

[00:11:10] RL: Yeah. How much does he really want to work after that, right? So he’s 59 right now. Is he saying, “We’re going to stop working at 62 or 65.”? Is this a, “I want to have this transition started in three to five years.”? If he’s going to continue to work, especially helping her out, right? If she’s taking on the purchase of the business, she’s going to have to decrease expenses, and she may do that. Decrease that sweat equity, right? But she’s going to need help from a staffing perspective. 

So if he’s going to be working there into the future, then, yeah, the time is now to get that transition started. So that way, she can slowly take over, while he’s still accruing an income and then working on transitioning that business. I think a real perspective on not only when they want to sell the pharmacy but when he wants to fully retire will set that timeline from a payout perspective is what we are working with the lawyers and the accountants to decide what the timetable or the time horizon is for that buyout. That’ll factor in pretty strongly.

[00:12:07] TB: Yeah. I think like it could be one of those things, where if you’re doing some part-time staffing at a pharmacy that your daughter’s drawn in that you kind of built that, that might be a little bit more enjoyable in the later years of your career, where you’re not having to worry about payroll, or you’re not having to worry about management and things like that. Obviously, you’re mentoring your daughter. But maybe it just kind of takes a lot of the stress off of you, and it can extend your career. 

The thing that I would have bouncing around in my head is, okay, how can we structure this if it’s a seller finance and note that we can get paid enough to kind of get to that age 70, where Social Security – The strategy might be to delay that. Take money from the retirement accounts, delay Social Security, and then use that structured note as a way to kind of bridge that period. So I think those are the discussions in terms of like how long is that note going to be? What’s the interest rate to, Kelly, your point? If it’s not a market interest rate that that has to be considered a gift that we have to kind of track and make sure that we’re accounted for. 

So these are all things. I think it goes back to the goals, right? So like when do you see yourself getting out? Is that something where it’s a clean break? There’s a note in here about Jesse kind of wants to – She wants to expand services. Is Aman going to be on board with that, if he’s still majority owner, if it’s like a 50-50 thing? Or is it at this day, in January 1, 2028 or whatever it is, that they’re going to you, basically, hand the keys to Jesse, and then it’s going to be here’s the run. Those are all things I think to get on the table and flesh out to make sure it works for everyone. 

Kelly, what’s your take in terms of like – It sounds like they kind of want to simplify life. Obviously, passing on the ownership of the pharmacy to Jesse, they talked about selling the rental property and kind of getting out of the landlord game. What’s your take in terms of timing of that, what to do with the proceeds, etc.?

[00:14:15] KRH: I guess the timing of the sale of the rental property is a pretty well time to have this conversation with the way the housing market is at present. So I guess that’s always a factor, like depending on the urgency, like understanding the market factors in like is it now. Is it maybe wait a bit? We have at present such an interesting situation. We’re coming off like really high rates for purchases, low interest rates earlier in the summer now with the rates rising. So I guess that would be a component is kind of getting some professional advice about the market and whether now is the time. 

In terms of what to do with it, like I think it would be interesting to build out. I’ve heard you in the podcast, Tim, talk about the retirement paycheck. So kind of what do they need to have? That pension for Hannah adds a really nice resource, understanding at what year she gets what amount. If there are any other benefits from that pension would be good to know. Like are there any health care benefits, any disability, survivor benefits? So details there but then kind of looking at what’s coming in from the pension, getting their Social Security statements poured. 

Then you can took take a look at expenses and see like, okay, well, then I feel like then you’re looking at the debts and seeing like, well, what really does need to be paid off to make that paycheck work with the resources. The rate of the 5% is on the high side. So I like that they’re aggressively paying that off. That probably would be the top thing I would target. The car and the mortgage a little bit less. So but, again, depending on resource, if they really don’t want to have any payments, that does come back to personal preference. We can run some numbers. It’s probably a combination of the two. Like does the paycheck work? Do the financial numbers work? Just how they feel about having some debt going into retirement. 

[00:16:18] TB: Yeah. What’s not represented here is probably like what is the rental income that they’re getting from that. So obviously, giving that up for the potential of liquidating the 275,000, which was what we think it’s worth and then, again, how to apply that to the debt. To your point, I’m less concerned about that. I think maybe getting rid of the HELOC. Maybe the car note and then keeping the mortgage rolling could be kind of a balance. 

But right now, where the market is, is like if you have cash to potentially put in the market, now’s the best time to do it because of how depressed prices are. Again, not an advocate of timing the market, but it could be that we’ve lined up the sale along with – To Robert’s point, when we exit the pharmacy and kind of do it in one fell swoop. Or just kind of let the market drive it in terms of maybe you list it for sale or you try to rent it simultaneously and see what comes out. So I think there’s a little bit of give there. We don’t – There’s not an overwhelming need for cash, I think, as we as we sit here but definitely something to kind of, again, flesh out with regard to the plan. 

Robert, from an insurance perspective, is there anything that kind of jumps out here? Obviously, Kelly mentioned the pension. One of the things I did look up in Minnesota, if you’re a state employee, you do get Social Security as well. So she’ll have that. A lot of state employees don’t pay in Social Securities. They don’t have that benefit. So that’ll – She’ll kind of be able to get both. But in terms of like looking at the pension, looking at health care, Medicare, she has some life disability. Do you have any big concerns from an insurance perspective, as you’re kind of approaching this plan?

[00:18:01] RL: It’s hard to say kind of what that overall perspective looks like. I think their life insurance policies are in a good place right now. Aman’s going to go out till 70. She’s going to go till 66. She’s got the short-term long-term disability and Social Security disability benefits from them. He doesn’t have any disability benefits. But as a pharmacy owner with a daughter working there, you could probably finagle some work that you could still accomplish for an income. 

The professional liability is there. I’d be interested in starting to look at maybe some long-term care, depending on what the parents look like. What does mom and dad look like from then? Are they still around? Is this something that they’re going to have to care for? Then what that longevity looks like for Hannah and Aman. Are they going to be expecting to do some long-term care? Because as we approach that age 60, it starts to become more of a conversation of is this a policy we need to be looking into? But yeah. 

[00:18:51] TB: Yeah. I think the other thing – So if we look at – You kind of mentioned not having anything through the pharmacy. I think one of the things that is glaring is the lack of a 401(k) offering, which a lot of small businesses, independent pharmacies don’t offer. I think it’s because of like the expense related to 401(k)s. I think there are options out there. So that would be something that I would be talking too about them, once the dust settles or some of these initial things, is to kind of open up that bucket. So they can defer. Jesse could defer for herself. Even if Aman is planning to do that, it’s to kind of set up that bucket. So it’s another place to basically get retirement funds set aside. So I would definitely encourage that. 

In terms of the investments, obviously, they’re pretty conservative to balance between the two of them, which is not necessarily a bad thing to be three to five years from retirement. That’s probably fine. But when we get post retirement and kind of outside of the eye of the storm with [inaudible 00:19:53] risk, we’re going to have to adjust that once we get kind of everything rolling. 

But, yeah, I think the big thing here is really to start the conversations, if they haven’t already, and with the CPA, with the attorney, just to make sure everything is tracking to what they’re trying to do. I think the big thing that I would be talking to the two of them about is you got to make sure you’re taking – Anytime you have kids, it’s making sure you’re taking care of yourself and your retirement and not being, I don’t want to say, overly generous with the deal. But you want to make sure that it’s structured in a way that benefits both. 

I know you’re concerned about Jesse’s loans as well. But at the end of the day, we need to make sure that the retirement nest egg has longevity and that Aman and Hannah don’t have to go back into the workforce to kind of sustain their livelihoods. So a lot going on here. Anything else that you guys would call out with regard to the plan?

[00:20:49] RL: A good taxable investment that they’re doing, I think there might be a better use for that. Basically, it sounds like they took some of that mortgage money that they weren’t paying before, minus the property taxes, and they started putting it into a taxable account, which is a strong idea. Let’s have that money grow for us in the future. But I think if we’re putting that in 1,400 hours a month, that money – We could max out her 403(b). So let’s get that 403(b) maxed out. That brings down the adjusted gross income, which might even get us below or close to that threshold, where we could start making some sort of Roth contributions again.

They’re over 50, so they get a little bit of plus up, so using a little bit of gap there. So if we can get under that threshold, that would be a nice place to just get more money going towards the retirement, instead of in a taxable account.

[00:21:27] TB: That’s great point. So the catch up for the Roth IRAs, they could put up to 7,000. So 6,000 plus $1,000 catch up. Then for the 403(b), I think they have a special provision, where it’s 20,500. I think it’s an extra 6,500 for catch up. 403(b)s have kind of some special rules with regard to the catch up, but that would be another place to put dollars. I definitely want to see a balance of Roth, taxable, and pre-tax, which I think they have a good – But to your point, they probably could plus up more into Hannah’s, potentially open up the Roth IRA. I think they have a sizable enough taxable portion that if they needed to draw from that, in addition to IRAs, as they’re waiting to claim Social Security, there’s probably enough there to do that. Again, we’d have to model that out and see. But potentially, take advantage of the 403(b) while it’s there. So that’s a great point, Robert. Anything else that you guys would fall out here? I think we covered a lot of ground.

[00:22:29] KRH: I mean, I would agree with the investment assessment. I mean, even exploring backdoor Roths if they’re over the limit. At some point, you’ll model Roth conversions, potentially as well with other resources when the time is right. I guess the other thing with insurance too, if he does sell it, if Aman sells the pharmacy to his daughter, and there’s a buy-sell agreement, like often that involves insurance as well, if they’re partners and kind of just keeping an eye on that. 

[00:22:59] TB: Liability, cross purchase, key person, all of those things probably just need to be relooked at and potentially even bringing in an insurance professional to make sure that that’s all looking good. Yeah. So I think those are good points as well. 

Well, guys, I really appreciate the thoughts on this. I think a lot of work to do. I think a lot of coordination, obviously, with the sale of an asset, transitioning into retirement, working with family. There’s I think good constructive conversation to be had. So I appreciate your guys’ thoughts on this case study today, and I’m looking forward to doing the next one. 

[00:23:32] KRH: Okay. 

[00:23:32] RL: Sounds good. 

[00:23:33] KRH: Thank you.

[OUTRO]

[00:23:34] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you, again, for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week. 

[END]

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YFP 277: How This Pharmacist Teaches Financial Principles As a Preceptor and Parent


Dr. Frank McCabe discusses his career in pharmacy and how he teaches financial principles as a preceptor and parent. 

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Frank M. McCabe is currently a Pharmacist Consultant with over 37 years experience in the Healthcare industry. He received his undergraduate degrees from Orange County Community College-SUNY Orange (Business Administration) and MCPHS University-Boston (BS Pharm) and his graduate degrees, Masters in Business Administration (Management) from the West Point Military Academy Program (USMA) of Long Island University-CW Post Campus and Doctor of Pharmacy degree from MCPHS University-Boston. Dr. McCabe is a Board Certified Pharmacotherapy Specialist (BCPS). He has served as a preceptor to pharmacy students and pharmacy practice residents. Most of Dr. McCabe’s pharmacy professional experience was in Hospital Pharmacy, including leading one of Nations leading healthcare institutions (St. Joseph’s Health of NJ) acute care hospitals during the Covid-19 pandemic (St. Joseph’s Wayne Medical Center, Wayne, NJ). Dr. McCabe also has had experience in Community practice and Pharmaceutical Industry (Medication Safety and Pharmaceutical Sales Management/Data Management). Dr. McCabe is also a Certified NJ Consultant Pharmacist, which is recognized Nationally by the VA. He has extensive engagement in Professional Societies, including when practicing in New York State as Secretary for the Mid-Hudson Chapter of the NYS Council of Health System Pharmacists and over 10 years as Treasurer for the North Chapter of the New Jersey Society of Health System Pharmacists. Dr. McCabe was also a frequently requested speaker on Nutrition and Vitamins for Corporations and Community organizations in the North New Jersey area.

Episode Summary

This week, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, is joined by Frank McCabe, PharmD, BCPS, MBA. Frank is a pharmacist consultant with over 37 years of experience in the pharmacy industry. This week, Dr. McCabe discusses his career in pharmacy, how he caught FIRE early in his career, strategies he employed to allow his children to attend out-of-state schools with very little debt, and how he incorporated personal finance education into his rotational experiences for student pharmacists as a preceptor. 

Frank’s advice to younger pharmacists includes being active in professional societies for continuing education, networking, and helping the future generation of pharmacists. He also encourages younger pharmacists to look for opportunities and training, as he did, so that when opportunities in the pharmacy field present themselves, they may take advantage. He shares a reminder to take care of your mental and physical health while seeking opportunities to make additional income. Being conservative with spending and living frugally while paying off student loan debt can be balanced with putting money into your retirement accounts as well. For pharmacists in the latter part of their careers, Frank explains his view of the current time of financial challenges and high volatility during this period of his retirement. The episode closes with Frank’s strategies for educating student pharmacists and his children on financial principles. His methods include building an understanding of the value of hard work balanced with finding and enjoying your life’s passions.

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:01] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, I had the pleasure of interviewing Frank McCabe, a pharmacist consultant living in Pittsburgh, with more than 35 years of experience as a pharmacist spanning institutional practice, pharmacy administration, and pharmaceutical industry. 

During the show, we discuss how he caught fire with personal finance early on in his career. Some of the strategies that he employed to allow his now adult children to attend out of state schools nearly debt-free. And why and how he incorporates personal finance education into rotation experiences for student pharmacists. 

Before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does and working one on one with more than 250 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers fi only high-touch financial planning that is customized to the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about working one on one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. 

Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Frank McCabe. 

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:27] LB: Frank, welcome to the show.

[00:01:29] FM: Thank you, Tim. Glad to be here. And hopefully we can help the next generation and admire what you’ve done with your financial pharmacist and being an entrepreneur. And it’s really much needed in our profession.

[00:01:42] TU: I really appreciate that. And I’ve been looking forward to this conversation. And just some background of how we got here, as you had reached out to me about purchasing a copy of the book Seven Figure Pharmacist because of a student that you were precepting and wanting to pay it forward. And that initiated a conversation. And we went back and forth with a few emails. 

And I quickly realized that you had a passion for, as you mentioned, training up the next generation, paying it forward, teaching some of the principles that have been so important to you in your own personal journey and your own career journey as well. And so, that’s what we’re going to be talking about here today. We’ll talk a little bit about your personal career journey in pharmacy. We’ll talk a little bit about your family journey and how you taught your children about money or still teaching children about money. 

[00:02:26] FM: Absolutely. 

[00:02:27] TU: And the work that you’ve done precepting students and thoughts that you have on teaching personal finance as a part of some of those experiential rotations. Let’s start, Frank, with your own personal journey and pharmacy. Where did you go to school? When did you graduate? And what drew you into the profession?

[00:02:43] FM: Oh, gosh. Tim, it’s a long journey. 37 faithful years ago. And actually, over 40. I was in the top 25% of my graduating class in high school. And in New York State, in Orange County. Applied to Albany College of Pharmacy. Didn’t get in. Oh, no. But I really admired my family pharmacist, Stanley Moroknek, who own Thrift Drugs in Monroe, New York. So, okay, I did what was convenient and easy to do. But it worked out real well. 

I went to SUNY Orange, the State University in New York, community college. Got a two-year degree in business. And you’ll see how that ties in later on. Completed my associate’s degree. Applied to Massachusetts College of Pharmacy, which is now MCPHS University, Northeastern College of Pharmacy. 

And what was unique about going to a SUNY school, I was guaranteed a spot in a four-year school. I got accepted at SUNY Buffalo for business. But really wanted to pharmacy. So I went off to MCPHS University. And so, I did my undergrad degree there, my Bachelor of Science in Pharmacy. Graduated in December of 1983 and came out into practice. Eventually, I did go on and earn an MBA and also a my PharmD.

[00:03:53] TU: Tell us maybe the cliff note version, 1983 to 2022. Tell us about your career journey, the different areas of the profession that you’ve been in and leading up to the work that you’ve done most recently.

[00:04:07] FM: Yeah, thank you, Tim. I work for CVS when I first graduated school. It was 13-hour days. No lunch. No dinner. No break. Because you were part of management. I graduated 160 pounds. After a year, I was 130 pounds. I said, “I can’t keep this up. I’ll waste away to nothing.” 

I took an opportunity to work for the New York State Office of Mental Health at a large inpatient psychiatric center. It had 1,000 patients when I started there. And that’s where I cut my hospital chops. Like, institutional pharmacy jobs. 

I realized that working there was very good for the patients. Worked with a great group of people. Pharmacists are just smart people and just great people to collaborate with. But also, had a yearning and a desire to do other things in pharmacy and to be a director and assistant director in New York State OMH, often mental health, you would have to have an advanced degree. 

At that time, the Continental Health Care Systems, we’re switching to pharmacy automation. Back then there was no computers, no clinical. It was all typing everything out. Going back years and years. And we visited one of the booths at the New York State Council of Health System Pharmacists. And I should weave in there, Tim. Still to this day, for most of my career, I’ve been active in professional societies. And that’s one way I do give back. And I really implore the younger generation to become involved, whether it’d be a community practice, or institutional practice society. Because you meet a lot of good people and you also have opportunities for continuing education and also to help the younger generation. 

It was through that meeting that I went back and realized I really needed to get an MBA. We were very fortunate at West Point, the New York State Military Academy, Long Island University. Had a program there for 30 years. It was half civilian, half military. Did 60 credits in 18 months while working full-time.

[00:06:05] TU: Wow! Wow!

[00:06:07] FM: And that gave me the opportunity, and my X as well. And I went into pharmaceutical sales, and rose through there. Became a district sales manager. But the industry changed after 2000. The regulatory climate changed. The political climate changed. 

But one thing that sales was very good for, and I think I say to the younger generation, everybody should do a stint in sales. You’re selling a product, but you’re also selling yourself, Tim. You need to articulate your ideas and things. 

And I’ll tie that in for when I was at St. Joseph’s Health, St. Joseph’s Health in northern New Jersey. And I was at St. Joseph’s University Medical Center for six years. It is the fifth busiest emergency room in the entire nation with over 170,000 ER visits a year. Clinically, it was great. Interacting with residents, the pharmacy residents, the clinical pharmacist. But you really need to be able to have opportunities. 

And along my career, besides continuing education, having an MBA, going back for my PharmD, you don’t know what doors are going to be open to you. And there was a management shake-up at St. Joseph’s, and I had the opportunity to become the manager, the pharmacist in charge, at our small facility, St. Joseph Wayne Medical Center. But nobody had figured this out, Tim. I have an MBA. I’m good with numbers. Most pharmacists are excellent with numbers. Nurses are not so good with numbers. But boy, they’re so good at other things and just have such admiration and appreciation for what they do.

But because of that MBA and that additional education, it paid off that many years later. I got my MBA in December of 1991. But here we are in 2018 and my career and realized that St. Joseph’s Health, between both facilities, we had $2.1 million in expired drugs. Not unusual. Probably on the higher side. But the only way you’re going to get a handle on that, Tim, is through automation. 

But also, I was responsible for – neither facility had other pharmacy upgraded in 40 years. We didn’t have any clean rooms. Hey, where are we going to get the money for this? And better yet, we need clean rooms. We need carousels. 

I saw Omnicell’s IVX. I don’t know if – Are you familiar with IVX at all, Tim? 

[00:08:35] TU: I’m not. No. 

[00:08:36] FM: In terms of sterile compounding. It’s a modular device that’ll go in the hood. It has a scale on it. It has a printer. It has a camera. And there’s a cloud library of the specific gravities of the active ingredients and the inactive ingredients. You’re checking that process. While the technicians are compounding, you’re capturing that for regulatory and legal purposes going forward. 

I went out – in fact, we came out here to cranberry, Pennsylvania, to Omnicell’s headquarters for their automation, and realized, “Hey, we can do this.” I was with my boss, Mike Cairoli, who’s now a VP at St. Joseph’s Health, and got a two and a half million-dollar contract signed. They don’t guarantee it anymore. But we also had guarantees of two and a half million dollars in savings over five years. 

I was able to go to the C suite at St. Joseph’s Health. And they’re second biggest provider of charity care in the state of New Jersey and very poor, but to get these contracts signed. And it’s because of my passion. And I tried to inculcate in my staff, whether it’d be the pharmacists or the technicians. And it was true, Tim. On a given day, a patient upstairs could be a colleague, could be a family member, be a friend. It’s our obligation and to practice at our highest level as pharmacist. But to do that, you need technology. I had the opportunity to do that. And also, appeared before the New Jersey Board of Pharmacy twice to educate the board on technology. 

And for reasons, and we wanted to be closer to family here in the Pittsburgh area, we relocated here. But St. Joseph’s Health, last March, the New Jersey Board of Pharmacy requires that a pharmacist be in the cleanroom or the compounding area when the technicians are compounding. But because of my background in sales, my MBA, always been trying to get educated, just not in our profession, but also outside our profession, St. Joseph’s Health was the first institution in the state of New Jersey to get approval and have a pilot once they’re up and running with their cleanrooms and Omnicell’s IVX to have the pharmacists remotely located outside still having line of sight with the technicians compounding, but not having to be in there. 

And the rationale for that, human beings, a simple matter of our head, Tim, you kick off 50,000 flakes of skin and bacteria. More people are introduced to that clean space, the risk of breaking that sterile compounding area. And also, if you had a pharmacist in there, as I talked to Linda Weitzel, the board president Anthony Rubinaccio, the Executive Director of Board of Pharmacy and other members of the board, that you could have 15 technicians compounding. But one pharmacist? How is that safe? 

If you look at that career progression, I would implore the younger generation. It’s tiring. You’re working. You get family. You have children. But always look for those opportunities to latch on to education, whether it’d be a formal education through advanced education, or certificate programs. Because you don’t know down the road where those opportunities are going to happen. And if you have the skill set and that education and training, when that door opens, you can step through it.

[00:12:04] TU: That’s really great, Frank. And it’s really cool to see the thread. One of the things you mentioned, which resonates with me a lot, is the importance of some of the sales principles that you learned, obviously, through the work that you did in the pharmaceutical industry. But as you mentioned, it’s not just about selling the product. It’s about selling yourself and some of the confidence that comes through that process. But I can see where that sales background comes to be when you’re in front of the C suite at St. Joseph and making a pitch. When you’re in front of the board of pharmacy, the New Jersey board, those are sales principles. You’re not, per se, selling a product. But you’re really bringing yourself forward and obviously making a pitch for what you want to do. Really cool to hear and see the thread throughout the journey that you mentioned. 

I want to shift a little bit and talk about some of your own personal financial journey, but also how you’ve been able to instill these principles not only within your own family, but also with students and others that you’ve precepted. And something that really stood out to me in our email exchange was how you instilled the financial knowledge in your children. And before we jump into that, I’m curious how and why did you get interested in personal finance? Was there a moment? Was it through the MBA training? Was it something that you’ve always had an interest in that you’ve always self-taught yourself? Where does your passion and interest around personal finance come from?

[00:13:21] FM: Good question, Tim. And you and I spoke about that a little bit before the recording. It really has to go back to my mom. She passed away just this past April. I miss her every day. On 93 years of age. But she was a bookkeeper, Tim. And a different generation. But her high school education at Walton High School in the Bronx really put her in good stead for lifelong earning ability. 

She reveled in telling us, children and grandchildren, the story of looking for – back in the old days, there was ads in newspapers. It was an ad for a Ford dealership. And back then, they only wanted a man. But she went and said I have the skills. And she got the job. 

I learned that a young age that from mom, genetically, but how to manage your checkbook. How to manage finances. But also, kind of like you, you were saying your mom and dad put up envelopes on the refrigerator. We didn’t have that sophistication. 

I’m the youngest of four. I have three older sisters. The other one is deceased. But we always have the ability to earn extra money. I would clean mom and dad’s car. Hey, if I need extra cash, you can go vacuum and clean their cars, clean the windows. And then we used to – maybe about a mile away, we grew up in a mountaintop in Orange County, New York, there was a convenience store at the bottom of the hill. But we would go buy candy and then resell it at a candy stand. I learned about the multiplier effect of money. 

And then I worked in food service for seven years, Tim, on the New York State Thruway while I was going to community college. And you name it, I did it. I was a cashier. And then I worked in the office on the weekends when I was doing my community college studies. You learn that early. 

And then off to MCPHS University, and mom and dad was very helpful. But I kind of ran out of spending money halfway through the year. We were at Emmanuel College, which was an all-girls Catholic college at the time, MCP, leased a dorm from them. I went off down the block to McDonald’s by Fenway Park and work to get some spending money. 

[00:15:36] TU: Yeah. I love it. 

[00:15:38] FM: Just had that drive and that initiative. But also, making sure I kept up academically as well. I think your question, it comes from genetics. It comes from a good mentor. And then also, the rewards of working and having goals. I’ve really admired our family pharmacist, Stanley Moroknek. I was an otitis media sufferer growing up. And he was just fantastic. I had a goal. And I needed the money. It’s, “Okay, I got to do the academics.” But it needs some spending money because I want to go to Fanueil Hall, or I want to go see a concert. That’s what I did, Tim.

[00:16:16] TU: We talked a little bit about before we recorded today that there’s some challenging times for new practitioners that are out there making this transition from a student pharmacist to the first decade of their career. The student loan debt is well known. We’ve talked about it extensively on the show. The numbers are somewhat mind boggling. North of $170,000 on average of student loan debt.

[00:16:39] FM: Oh, easy. 

[00:16:40] TU: Many, may be higher, private education, longer pathways of education. We’ve seen somewhat of a flattening and stagnation of wages. We’re in a high inflationary period. Pharmacists, certainly still, relatively speaking, make a good income. But many folks may have a ceiling on that income. My question for you, as we think about the next generation of pharmacists and those that are listening, is there a piece of advice or two, Frank, that you would share now looking back 37 plus years of your career? Things that you learned along the way or words of wisdom that you wish you would have had early on that could be helpful to those that are in the front half of their career?

[00:17:19] FM: You have to look at self-help, Tim, in terms of your mental health and your physical health. You’ve got to take care of yourself first. But I think what is put me in good stead over the years is taking the opportunities for overtime. And also, the skill set. Though, here I am a hospital pharmacist, and then a hospital pharmacy manager. But there’s a small chain of independent pharmacies in North New Jersey. And I would add – I get a phone call during the day, “Hey, Frank, can you work tonight.” I would ask the younger generation, besides working 40 or 45 hours a week, whatever your primary job is. And if you have that debt, is to pick up additional shifts elsewhere. 

I know as a hiring manager at St. Joseph’s Health and a short stint here at Allegheny Health Networks, it’s very difficult to find qualified, competent hospital pharmacists. If somebody’s working in community practice, pick up a hospital shift or two as a per diem pharmacist. And that’s one way you can make a transition to hospital pharmacy. 

But what was nice about hospital pharmacy, I work shift work. And at St. Joseph’s, they were a little unique. My shifts were 6:30 to 3:00. I always had my – 90% of my evening is free. I could pick up if somebody called me and they needed coverage on one of the stores that night. 

And funny enough, at St. Joseph’s Health, Monday nights were the biggest nights for call outs. 99% of time, I’d pick up extra shifts. And also, besides earning money, Tim, I’ve always driven my vehicles in excess of 100,000 miles. Even here I am today mostly retired, I am driving a Subaru that’s got 175,000 miles. Can we afford to go buy another car? Sure. But it’s the principle that matter. I don’t need that new flashy thing. 

But also, it’s also putting money into the 401k, and making sure, at a minimum, you’re getting that match. So many institutions or corporations, you don’t have a traditional pension plan. St. Joseph’s Health, they had what was called the church plan. There were lawsuits. But come next year, I’ll be getting a small pension from them. They had switched to a 403b. As soon as they switched with that, they had grandfathered the pension plan. But I started putting money into that 403b. 

And even despite the downturn in 2008, Tim, I did nothing. I let it ride. Because I believe in the stock market historically. Part of the conversation you and I talked about was it’s not what you earn. It’s also what you save. Try and live frugally. 

And also, another way that I do that, another passion of mine, and that may be for a little bit of another segment of our discussion today, Tim, I had the opportunity at St. Joseph’s Health to present and lecture to corporations and community groups over 30 times on supplements and nutrition. Where that ties in terms of your own personal health and well-being, I would bring my own food to work. 

Not only wasn’t that frugal and savings, but it was always available to me. I didn’t have to go to the cafeteria. I made sure that what I was getting was healthy. I never understood about hospital institutional cafeterias selling deep fried chicken and French fries. But they do.

[00:20:46] TU: They do. Well, and I think the frugality message there I think is really important. Maybe a word that my generation doesn’t love necessarily. But I think, frugality, it’s important to remember. It’s not just about the dollars and what we do with those dollars. Certainly, that’s very important, whether we’re paying down debt, or investing, or saving for the future. But it’s also about the momentum and the mindset. 

Here you are nearing retirement. You’ve had a successful career. And you share that, after this interview, you’re going to be working on your Subaru, which is 170,000 miles plus. So, you can keep that thing going and not have to buy another car. And could you? As you mentioned, yes, you could. But it’s that mindset and that momentum that transcends any one financial decision, right? I always say it’s not just about the used car. It’s about the mindset with a used car, which then transcends your ability to save, your momentum to save, and the ability to move towards other financial goals. 

One question I’d have for you, Frank, especially for pharmacists listening that are maybe in the latter part of their career, here we are in a very challenging, volatile time period of the market. You mentioned, you’re mostly retired, how are you viewing this time period? You’ve done all this work to accrue your assets leading up to retirement. And here we are in a very challenging time period. But you’ve always had this long-term view of investing. Just take us inside Frank’s brain in the moment as someone who’s nearing retirement and how you’re viewing this high volatility period as you’re approaching a time where you may need to draw upon those funds.

[00:22:21] FM: One point that is unique in my situation, Tim, that helps me a lot, my wife, Marge, is a retired public school business administrator for the state of New Jersey. And she continues to work. In fact, she’s doing CE today. But I have her health benefits. That affords some flexibility. 

Do I get worried about the market? Yes. But I lived through the downturn in 2008. I have my 401k monies, my 403 monies, in lifestyle funds. As you go through time, they’re morphing more towards bonds. I’ve seen the growth in my retirement funds from 10, 15 years ago. And also, because I was in pharmaceutical sales, and I worked for GlaxoSmithKline, when I left their employ, I left my 401k monies there, because they pay – It’s a much bigger corporation. Lot more monies. 

At some point, I will have to consolidate this. But a lot of the fees they’ve paid to manage those funds. That has allowed my money to grow. I think that the days of staying with an employer for 30 or 40 years is rare. I think for the younger pharmacist is, okay, don’t panic. Leave the money. And then at some point – it’s a little bit of a hassle sometimes to tie that money together to roll it over. But you don’t want to take that out. 

If you need money –I can. And I looked before I started with Allegheny General Hospital last year, within 14, 10 miles of my house, I think there’s 14 independent pharmacies, Tim? And you’re looking at, from my knowledge, the first pharmacist in the history of the state of Pennsylvania, because of my perseverance and persistence to get his immunization licensed by reciprocity. They’ve never done that before. I would say to the younger generation, believe in yourself. Follow through. But it takes a lot of work. 

I sent 30 pages of documentation to the board here in a pandemic. Okay, I didn’t get my education training for immunization. It was back in 2013. No, it’s not two years ago, like the board requires. But I’ve been immunizing up until then. I think tying in financially, and that long view outlook is that persistence and perseverance. Believing yourself. Taking care of yourself. Eating right. Getting exercise.

[00:24:53] TU: Yep. And letting the time value of money do its thing, right? You live through a couple of steps. And one thing I was sharing recently with some folks is I graduated in ’08. And for folks that have graduated somewhere around that time period, or since then, this is really the first test of that long-term view and philosophy that we talk about. 

And it’s one thing to say it. It’s another thing to live it, especially for folks that have maybe been saving for 12, 13 years. You look at your portfolio, it could be down 20%, 25%, 30%. But to hear from folks such as yourselves that have lived through these dips. And we know the history. If we look at the market since the Great Depression, this is not unique. It’s happened before. The reasons are different. But this is not unique. And this is why we’ve got to have that long-term view of investing and make sure that we’re keeping that long-term view in mind.

[00:25:43] FM: I agree. I agree. And one thing we left out of there, and maybe that’s another segment, is also real estate.

[00:25:49] TU: Mm-hmm. Tell me more. Is that been a part of your journey?

[00:25:52] FM: It has been. Yeah, I’ve not been a real estate investor in the sense of some people could do it if you have the stomach for it. It’s just not my personality. But some people do get investment properties and rent out. But I’ve been a homeowner since 1986. And this is probably my fifth home. I don’t own the other homes. But the market long-term has been good. Because the current structure, it’s a little bit different especially living – Well, we lived in – Pennsylvania can be higher in taxes, but New Jersey certainly was one of the highest in the nation. And that limit would solve taxes. But getting that home equity over the years, and sweat equity. 

For me, Tim, growing up in high school, I took power mechanics and woodworking. And I worked with my hands. And I find that relaxing. But now, gosh, the younger generation, don’t forget YouTube. You can learn how to hang a drape. You can learn how to do a minor Plumbing Repair, do those kinds of things. I would also suggest that the younger generation, when they can afford it, is to get into their own home. 

And I kind of laugh, but I don’t want to laugh. Mortgage rates are at 5%, right? 

[00:27:08] TU: That’s right. 

[00:27:09] FM: But historically, my first home was like 13%. 

[00:27:11] TU: Yeah. Perspective, right? 

[00:27:13] FM: And our current home, Tim, we have a mortgage. We don’t need it. But it’s a 2.375%. We’re using somebody else’s money. You think of that time value of money, as you talked about, and how you deploy those assets, how you deploy your savings, how you deploy your long-term goals.

[00:27:34] TU: Frank, let me put myself in the shoes of a student on rotation with you, and you’re teaching me all these things, time value of money, and home appreciation, and equity in the home, and all the things long-term. And I hear all that. And I’m like, “Frank, that’s great. But I’ve got $200,000 in student loan debt. Homes are at crazy prices right now. Pharmacist income is relatively flat.” If we get tangible for a moment, it really comes down to we need to live off of less than we make so that we can create the cash flow to be able to allocate money towards these longer-term goals. 

And so, what does that look like? I’m a new graduate. I’m a transitioning graduate. What are the principles that I’m putting in place that allow me to live that discipline lifestyle so I can live off of less than I make and I can ultimately try to really save and invest the difference?

[00:28:24] FM: Tim, I don’t think it’s dissimilar to high school education today. Nevermind college graduates and pharmacist graduates. They fill our heads with so much clinical knowledge, and it’s great, and it’s a value to the patients that we serve. But I don’t think the schools are doing a good job in terms of what is this tuition mean. 

And when you’re going through, try and be frugal student. But now here, you graduate, and you said the average is $170,000 in debt? Well, how the heck am I going to get out of this debt? Well, you got to have a job. You get your primary job. 

Also, do a time value analysis. You can go to bankrate.com. You can use Excel. And I’ve done that with my students that, “Okay, here’s your debt. What do you think the current interest rate is going to be? What’s your minimum payment going to be?” Nevermind how do I get rid of this debt? 

And the students that I talked with, the schools have not done a good job of providing them with resources and information. They’re smart enough. Heck, hell, yeah. Yeah. We’re two percenters, Tim. Do you know what I mean by two percenters?

[00:29:29] TU: In terms of the 2% that are applying? Or what are you referring to?

[00:29:33] FM: No. Only about 2% of the US population has doctoral level degrees. 

[00:29:38] TU: Oh, okay. 

[00:29:39] FM: It’s probably evenly split between professional degrees like MD, PharmD, and PhDs. Let’s face it. You get through pharmacy school, they’re smart people. But they’ve just not gotten a sense. It’s like, “Oh my gosh.” And I think what I’ve done, and I think any graduating pharmacist can do, once you get that job, is hopefully you’re eligible for overtime. If not, you pick up extra shifts. Find another job. Maybe it’s outside of your passion or what you’re doing. But there’s usually – because there’s no benefits involved. 

I know probably – I’m 99% sure, Tim. I go and throw my CV around within 10 miles of here, and somebody’s looking [inaudible 00:30:25]. I’ll pick it up. 

[00:30:28] TU: Yup, absolutely. 

[00:30:28] FM: Yeah. I wouldn’t say, “Okay, I got this debt. What’s my minimum payment? What’s my maximum payment?” Because that’s going to impede their ability to get a mortgage, to buy a car. Got to pay for benefits out of your paycheck, for health insurance. But also, if there’s a retirement plan, you want to make sure you maximize that. Because the time value of money, you graduate ’24, ‘25. And you’re going to retire. Let’s say they raise social security to 68. Oh, boy! The value of compounding that. And you could do that through easily on bankrate.com. If I put 50 bucks a paycheck, times 52 weeks, and do that over 30 or 40 years. But you need to – Yeah, I can do vancomycin dosing. But nobody’s taught me how to do this.

[00:31:20] TU: Yeah. No. It’s so true. And I think there’s a gap. We’ve been fortunate to partner with over 40 colleges and to do some personal finance education. Often, those are one-off sessions. But for several of them, we’ve seen individuals at the dean level that have really bought into, “Hey, we need to be doing this and doing this longitudinally for our students.” 

And what I love hearing preceptors like yourself doing this, it needs to continue from the didactic curriculum to the experiential curriculum. And obviously, my hope is even post-graduation associations and others will pick up some of the education as well. And then we need to pass it on and pass it back, so that when we’re precepting students, we’re able to help them in their own journey. 

And step number one is often just that awareness. You give the example of student loan debt and the calculator. And before we can put a plan into action, we have to know what we’re working with. And so, $170,000, as I’ve said on the show before through my own journey, that feels like Monopoly money. But when you look at it as a monthly payment, and what does this actually mean? Okay, this starts to become real. Now we can put a plan in place. 

And we first have to accept that, yes, pharmacists might make a good six figure income, but you’re not taking home six figures, right? And this is simple math. We all know this. But students may not be thinking about that. Or what is the actual take home amount? And coming down a little bit off of the high of that, and then looking at what’s that going to mean in terms of bills, mortgages, student loan expenses. And really starting to work that budget so we can make sure we’re achieving those longer-term goals.

[00:32:54] FM: And I think, Tim, sometimes you look at that big figure of 170,000, you throw up your arm. 

[00:32:59] TU: That’s right. Yup. 

[00:33:01] FM: But so often, you got to slice that pie. Here’s the pie for food. Here’s the pie for the rent. Here’s the pie from a student loan. Okay, I can do this on my salary. But I don’t want to be paying this off for – I want to get a house. I want to go on vacation. How am I going to accelerate this? And I think the way to do it is you have no choice. I think you’ve really got to pick up an additional job. And that’s okay, because it’s a sprint. You get through that. Get that loan paid off. And then you can start doing what you really want to be doing.

[00:33:37] TU: Frank, one of the things you shared with me is that your daughter became debt-free at the age of 28. Your son, very small amount of debt. He’s an engineer for Tesla. And so, for me, as a father of four young boys running YFP, teaching them about personal finance is a really important topic. And I’ve tried a few different things with my kids. And it’s been interesting to see some of the behaviors and habits that they’re picking up on. As you look at now, parenting adult children, I would guess this journey never ends, right? In terms of teaching and – 

[00:34:08] FM: Tim, it never ends. Parental love. And I just talked to my children last night, and it’s just you think and worry about them, and frighten them every day.

[00:34:19] TU: Yeah. What worked for you? As you look back on that journey, and teaching your kids about money, what were some of the strategies that you employed, or even things that you’re currently employing? For folks that are listening that maybe have younger children or perhaps will have children into the future, what are some of the strategies? What are some of the tips when it comes to teaching kids about money?

[00:34:40] FM: I think it starts off with, Tim, that my ex and I are both pharmacist and believe in higher education. And also, believe that idle hands are the devil’s hands. And there’s a cost associated with that. But we always kept our kids busy, even if we’re both working parents. It might be after care, during the school year, going to parochial school, and during the summer, going to enrichment camps. But that also tied in. 

My daughter, she played town rec ball, high school basketball, AAU basketball. And she went on to the University of Massachusetts at Dartmouth for sculpture and graphic design. And she played division three basketball. And that was her passion. As parents, we didn’t expect her to get a part-time job. 

But my son had the good fortune, from Montclair, New Jersey to get accepted. We lived in Cedar Grove, New Jersey. But by taking the train, the path into New York City every day, he got accepted into Xavier high school in Manhattan. And that’s a Jesuit school, all boys. But also, by getting accepted, he also got the Sons of St. Patrick’s scholarship. And that required him to work. 

He worked at a mom and pop local gardening store all four years. Of course, I was beneficiary, because I got the shrubs for half price. I did some of my own landscaping. You know, sweat equity. Both children, they learned to work hard and be passionate through different avenues. 

I’m wrestling my daughter being academically, getting scholarships, but also working hard. She was never a star player, but she really enjoyed it. And living in New Jersey at the time, both kids went to state schools out of state. You’re paying out of state tuition. We just buckled down. I picked up extra shifts so I didn’t have to eat pork and beans. But we, me and my ex, paid a majority of their education. 

But you were talking – And this is not that long ago, Tim. It was $30,000 a year tuition, room and board. They both have cars. You’re talking $50,000 a year each. Marissa graduated with, I think, about $8,000 in loans. And she has paid those. And then Matthew had about 17,000. That was it, from Purdue University. And he’s down to 5000. And he’s in no rush, because there’s been no need.

It’s teaching your children the value of money younger, of hard work. Also, following your passions. Marissa is probably lifelong – She’s had some injuries. But she goes to the gym. I was a skier. My son took to snowboarding like a fish to water. And also, mountain biking. It’s not just teaching your kids the value of money and hard work, Tim. But it’s also introducing them to sports activities they can do lifelong and be healthy. Because not only just physically healthy, but mentally healthy. Both of my children, yeah, when I talk with them, they go to the gym, they do hiking. Matthew just loves being out in Reno, Nevada, because he’s an hour and a half from the Sierra Nevadas. And buys the epic pass and whatever passes, and every time he can when he’s not at work.

[00:38:10] TU: Tough life, huh? Tough life out there. Yeah. I love, really, the message of work. I think so often, for good reasons, we talk about strategies, like, 529 accounts, and saving, and scholarships, and cash flowing it, and all of those have value. But one of my hopes with my boys is, sure, we’d love to help where we can financially, whether that’s 529 accounts, whether that’s guiding them to scholarships, whether that’s cash flowing it. The expense so they’re not burdened with the debt. But also, there’s a lifelong lesson that comes from that hard work component, right? And that is something that transcends any type of transfer of here’s $10,000, from a 529 account. That’s great. But the lifelong lesson of the hard work that can come from that is going to have a much, much bigger return on investment. I think that’s a great reminder. And I’m grateful that you shared that.

Frank, my last question for you is I suspect we have many pharmacists listening that have students on rotation with them, residence on rotation with them, and perhaps have thought before, “How can I incorporate this topic of personal finance into the rotation? Into the learning experience?” 

And I’ve actually had a handful of people email me over the past couple years that are doing some cool things around this topic. And so, my question is, for you, that others might be able to adopt or build upon, what have you done, practically speaking, with students around the topic of personal finance that others might be able to apply in their own situation?

[00:39:41] FM: What I’ve done – and I just did it with Jordan. As you know, I bought a gift. And we’ve got to get together. I’ve been so busy. But I did reach out to him. I do have your book. And within the next couple of weeks, him and I will get together. But one of the first things we did, I have no – Hey, when are you going to graduate? Depends what year they’re in. How much money do you have in loans? And what does that mean? Here’s that dollar figure. What are your plans for paying that back? How are you going to pay it back? 

You introduce them to tools, whether through Excel or bankrate.com. And make a realistic, concrete example of what their payment is going to be when they graduate? And what jobs are available to them? And also, suggest, and try, and push, and prod, and share with them what I’ve done and what’s been successful for me. 

And my mom, at a young age, she – They said, “Well, how are you going to be successful in college?” Well, I like nice things, Tim. Nice things doesn’t necessarily mean new, shiny things. But it means the ability – my days off, I want to go skiing. I want to go mountain biking. It’s putting concrete things to that student and saying, “How are you going to get there and follow your personal passions, as well as your professional passions?” But also, because it’s become so competitive, Tim, I also encourage the students to become board certified.

[00:41:10] TU: Yeah, another credential that can help there. And I love the angle of the passions, right? Because one of things we often talk about is that a good financial plan – Yes, we need to be taking care of our future self. Yes, we need to be planning for retirement. But we also have to make sure we’re living a rich life today, right? Throughout. There has to be this balance between the two. 

And I think that connects and makes the topic come alive, especially as we’re talking about working with students, that when I talk about 401k accounts, 403b accounts, Roth IRAs, HSAs, insurance policies, those are tomorrow things in their mind. 

[00:41:45] TU: That’s Greek. That’s Greek. 

[00:41:46] TU: Right. Exactly. Yeah, it’s overwhelming. It’s confusing. But what’s right in front of them are student loans. I’m thinking about buying a home. There’re these things that I haven’t done for the last six or eight years when I’ve been in school that I’ve enjoyed that were hobbies or passions that I haven’t done that don’t want to do again. And so, being able to really lean into those areas that they can resonate with, that they can hook on to, I think can really help make the financial plan come alive. 

And then from there, take those jumping points, right? To talk about time value of money. To talk about Roth IRAs, and 401k’s and HSAs. But we’ve got to often meet the learner where they are, and then take them on the journey towards the future as well. 

[00:42:24] FM: Yeah, absolutely, Tim. Yeah, because they’re going to be with you for many weeks on rotation, for 8 weeks. You don’t need to bludgeon them over the head day one. But just bring that into the conversation.

[00:42:36] TU: Yeah. Well, it’s great. And one of the ideas we’ve had for a while that has just hit the backburner, among other things, is coming up with a preceptor toolkit of sorts around this topic. I’ve taught a personal finance course at a couple universities that we can use as a jumping point. But if there’s any preceptors out there listening that would like to join me and put something together that we could perhaps share with others, I suspect that we all have different resources or tools that would be helpful, shoot us an email, [email protected]. And we’d love to get a small group together to talk about this further. 

Frank, thanks so much for taking time to come on the show to share your journey, the wisdom with the next generation of pharmacists. Really appreciate it. And your mindset towards paying it forward. Thank you so much.

[00:43:18] FM: Tim, thank you so much for having me. And I’m looking so forward to some people, pharmacists, viewing this and latching on to an idea. And your good hard work that you’re doing is just much needed in the profession. Hats off to you.

[00:43:32] TU: Thank you so much. I appreciate it. 

[OUTRO]

[00:43:34] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. 

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacists unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the date publish. Such information may contain forward-looking statements are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacists.com/disclaimer. 

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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