July 2024 – Your Financial Pharmacist

YFP 369: 10 Common Tax Blunders To Avoid (From 2023 Filings)

Posted on by YFP Media

Sean Richards, CPA and Director of YFP Tax, talks about the 10 common tax blunders he saw and how to remedy those mistakes to optimize taxes in the year ahead.

Episode Summary

July might not seem like the time of year to think about your taxes, but for Sean Richards, CPA and Director of YFP Tax, it’s a great time to make projections for the year ahead and remedy any blunders from last year’s return.

Reviewing 10 common mistakes he saw made with taxes in 2023, Sean breaks down ways to optimize your tax plan from utilizing HSAs, to adjusting withholdings, to making sure any side-income is planned for appropriately. Sean’s biggest piece of advice: planning ahead can help avoid these mistakes and can optimize your tax situation.

About Today’s Guest

Sean Richards, CPA, received his undergraduate degree in Corporate Finance and Accounting, as well as his Master of Accountancy, from Bentley University in Waltham, MA. Sean has been a Certified Public Accountant (CPA) since 2015 and is currently pursuing his Enrolled Agent certification. Prior to joining the YFP team, Sean was the Senior Treasury Manager at PRA Group, a global debt buyer based in Norfolk, VA. He began his career at American Tower Corporation where, over 10 years, he held several positions in audit, treasury and accounting.

As the Director of YFP Tax, Sean focuses on broadening the company’s existing tax planning and preparation operations, as well as developing and launching new accounting offerings, including bookkeeping, payroll, and fractional CFO services.

Key Points from the Episode

Tax blunders and optimizing tax situations with a CPA and tax director. [0:00]
Common tax mistakes and how to avoid them. [3:13]
Tax planning strategies and common blunders to avoid. [9:33]
Optimizing retirement contributions and HSA benefits. [12:59]
Tax deductions and filing status, with a focus on maximizing savings. [17:31]
Tax planning strategies for side income sources. [22:05]
Tax blunders to avoid, including not making estimated tax payments. [26:14]
Tax planning for small business owners, including extension deadlines and investment activity. [32:18]
Tax planning and law changes, including energy credits and potential future rate increases. [35:44]
Tax planning for pharmacists and households across the country. [41:34]

Episode Highlights

“Doing a projection mid year and identifying that you’re going to have a surprise bill or refund at the end of the year, or at least beginning to see that it’s trending in that direction allows you to begin fixing all those problems before they even become problems.” -Sean Richards [7:38]

“For small business owners or for a side hustle, when we’re doing projections about where you expect the business to land in profit and loss this year, and you have a pretty good idea, or at least you hope you do. But that can always change for anybody, not none of us can see the future. But the point here is, at least giving it some thought and trying to come up with a number and planning accordingly.” – Sean Richards [24:16]

“It all comes down to planning. To the extent you’re able to identify any kind of gaps in where you expect to owe money at the end of the year and can close them now whether that’s making estimated payments directly to the IRS or adjusting your withholdings, it’s much better to fix it now and get ahead of it.” – Sean Richards [31:57]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. On today’s episode, I welcome CPA and YFP Director of Tax, Sean Richards, onto the show to discuss the 10 most common tax blunders that he saw pharmacists making during the recent tax season so that you can avoid these mistakes and optimize your tax situation. To learn more about our tax and accounting services you can visit yfptax.com. Alright, let’s jump into my interview with YFP Director of Tax Sean Richards.

Tim Ulbrich 00:41

Sean, welcome back to the show.

Sean Richards 00:43

Thanks for having me. It’s always a pleasure to be here.

Tim Ulbrich 00:46

So have you had a chance to recharge, recover? It’s now July. Tax season is behind us. But I know that work can linger on, that’s the nature of the business. How are you feeling at this point in the year?

Sean Richards 00:58

Yeah, I’m feeling good. Projection season. I mean, by the time this comes out, we’ll probably be in full swing there. But our projection season is going to be kicking off soon for most folks. But again, you know, we have some folks that are more complicated that we’re still kind of wrapping up 2023. Now, all by design, that’s where we’re taking the time in the summer where other accountants might be sleeping, I am catching up on some sleep, but also using the time to wrap up some of the more complicated returns, make sure we’re optimizing things for those folks. Maybe those projections are a little bit later in the year. So yeah, I’m feeling pretty good. I mean, there’s a little bit 23 stuff still in the works, but mostly close the book there. Looking a lot towards 24 and even 25 and beyond. So feeling refreshed.

Tim Ulbrich 01:38

Well, I’m convinced you’re gonna look back at this season of life as a blur at some point. I mean, you got young kids, tax season and owning business in that season. That’s a lot going on at once. So kudos to you and the work that you and the others have been doing on the team. So give us a rundown. You mentioned there’s some work still to be done individual business extensions. That would include Tim and myself as well. So we’re a couple of the stragglers, but how many returns have you in the team done this year on the federal and state side?

Sean Richards 01:50

On the federal side, we’ve probably locked down about 160 returns or households at least. So you got to factor in that you’re gonna have, you know, if you’re filing separate there, that’s that’s double on those returns. And then for each one of those, I mean, I’d say for each one, you probably average at least a state, because some folks have more states, some folks are in states like New Hampshire that don’t have state income taxes. So probably at least double that on the state side. And then you know, some some couple dozen or not, maybe not a couple of those in but a few business returns on top of that, and yeah, it definitely adds up quite a bit. So there’s only a couple hanging out there right now. If you’re listening, by the time you’re listening, you’re probably actually going to be filed unless you’re Tim Baker and haven’t submitted any of your documentation yet, but everybody else should be all set by the time you’re hearing this. So yeah, we did quite a bit this year. Maybe not as many number wise as before, but definitely, you know, more complex returns where we’re able to get in there and really do that maximization during the year. It’s awesome.

Tim Ulbrich 03:13

does Ohio still win the award for the most difficult state to deal with? Or do we have a new winner this year?

Sean Richards 03:20

No, Ohio still number one, as far as most difficult, just given the different municipalities and how you know, some of them are part of the RITA system some of them are completely not not the worst as far as the worst state tax liability that probably be somewhere out west California, Oregon’s up there but yeah, Ohio, I think still is the most annoying.

Tim Ulbrich 03:41

Our tax liability here in Ohio very friendly, especially for small business owners. Grateful for that. But the bureaucracy of the RITA system, known as the regional income tax authority, shout out to them for listening wish I can assure you they’re not listening. But makes it very difficult because not everyone is in a RITA and just the complexities of dealing with that. So certainly feel for you and others during the season when you’re dealing with the nuances of a system like that. So anyways, not what we’re here to talk about. Let’s jump into the most common mistakes that you saw pharmacists making, the blunders during the tax season. Really an opportunity for us to learn and opportunities, were in the middle of the year. And we’ll talk about the importance of doing projections and looking ahead, but as we hear some of these common mistakes or blunders, it’s a great reminder of what tax planning can we be doing throughout the year. So we’ve compiled 10 I’m sure there’s many more and there’s some layers within each one of these but let’s jump into our list number one, on the list. Perhaps the most common probably will always be the most common is getting a surprise bill or refund at filing. What’s the usual cause here, Sean of some of these unwelcome surprises.

Sean Richards 04:56

And the reason we always have this number one we probably always will unless there’s some sort of broad tax reform in this country is that there’s so many different things that can cause that to happen, that I couldn’t even begin to answer. I mean, I can give some examples, you know, you could under withhold, you could have a side gig and not have, not plan accordingly. But, I mean, we have 10 things on this list, or I guess nine, not including that first one. And they all can kind of result in that number one issue of getting that big refund back, which, you know, that one might surprise some folks, because you might hear that and think, Well, what’s wrong with getting a huge refund back. But if you’re getting $5,000, back in April, that’s $5,000, that you could have been utilizing more efficiently, evenly throughout the course of the year. So you know, that side or the worst side, even, you know, the other opposite is owing that at the end of the year, and nobody wants to have that. So there’s just so many different things. We’re gonna hit on a bunch of them while we talk through this. But I mean, to even start talking about what the causes of that could be. I could be here all day.

Tim Ulbrich 06:00

Endless possibilities, we’ll get to those throughout the list of 10 of where the most common ones are coming from. As you mentioned, it’s the surprise bill that causes the most pain, right? Even though this year, the number of people that reached out to us post tax deadline, say, hey, I’m interested in learning about what you offer for tax services. If they came after the tax filing deadline, I can assure you that most of them were because, hey, I just got through that that was a mess. I owed money. I don’t want to ever do that again. Right. So the good news is, there are remedies to that problem. There are solutions we can put in place, there are planning that can be done. And changes are going to happen. You know, as we think about the things that can result in those surprise bills that might be causing that to be the case. And so we can with diligent planning, be able to make sure hopefully, that doesn’t happen again in the future. So to that point number two on our list, which is the remedy to the surprise biller refund. Number two is not performing a tax projection. And Sean, talk to us about why this is important, when the projection should happen, what we’re looking at in doing that projection, and to be frank, most people aren’t doing this.

Sean Richards 07:10

Most people aren’t. I mean, pretty much anybody I talked to who’s not a client working with us, has never really even heard of doing this or they’ve done something like it, but it’s not as formal of a process. And it may not be fair to start with number one being the overarching problem for all tax returns. And then number two sort of being the solution. And if you didn’t do that, that’s our, our issue. But frankly, I mean, not doing this piece really is the biggest second issue because doing a projection mid year and identifying that you’re going to have a surprise bill or refund at the end of the year, or at least beginning to start to see that it’s trending in that direction allows you to begin fixing all those problems before they even become problems really. And so a tax projection is basically just doing a little bit of an estimate of what your your where you expect your tax return to be at filing time. And as silly as that sounds or as simple as it sounds, it’s not something that a lot of people do. And a lot of it’s because you know, tax returns, there’s a lot of complicated or not complicated, but there’s just a lot of different inputs that come into it, you have your credits and your deductions, and you have various sources of income and having all those pieces kind of in your brain and trying to think about how they’re all being covered off. And then getting to the end of the year. And throwing it all on paper is is just chaotic. So doing something around this time of year, or at least mid year for your kind of tax cycle. So if you’re filing every year around tax day, or in the springtime, mid year, July, August, great time to be doing it. If you’re maybe extending and you’re more complicated, and you’re filing a little bit later in the year, you know, you can kind of flex accordingly. But basically, you want to give yourself enough time where you’ve seen enough of the year that you know kind of what’s been going on, what you expect to have happen throughout the rest of the year and maybe even early next year. But you also have enough time to make adjustments based on that. So you don’t want to do it too early. You also don’t want to do it too late. And ideally, you want to have your prior year return kind of solidified and everything to use as a basis. So yeah, I mean, again, it’s it sounds like a simple kind of concept. But it’s something that a lot of people don’t do, and just that one little activity will open up so many areas for you to improve your tax situation every year. It’s outstanding.

Tim Ulbrich 09:33

These are the situation that again, there are endless possibilities. Right. You know, I’m thinking of the common ones that I’ve heard you talk about, hey, we bought a rental property. We switched jobs, you know, significant change in income. Got married. We had a child. Started a business, a side hustle. I mean, there’s there’s so many things that can adjust and change what our tax liability is going to be. I mean, I just lived this firsthand with you, Sean. As we think about our situation, we pay quarterly estimated taxes when it comes to the business income. When went to go make our first quarter payment, you know, we did kind of rough rough calculations number. We’ve got a well oiled machine process system that you’ve helped us develop internally. Made that payment. And then we said, hey, when we get to the quarter to like, based on what happened last year, my individual situation, I’ve got four kids single, single income in the household, let’s do a projection. And then from there, figure out what is the amount that we should be looking at based on Q2. And the reason why that was really important in my own plan is, as we had suspected, I probably didn’t need to make a Q2 payment or a very big one, because of what we made in Q1 and what the liability was projecting to be for the rest of the year. So to your point, we’ve got to have that return, complete or near complete. We’ve got to have some idea of what may or may not be coming here in the second half of the year. And then you’ve got some cool software that you can run some analyses. And we can put a visual to this, which I think really helps people understand how the tax liabilities work and how we want to think about making these payments.

Sean Richards 11:02

Yeah, I agree seeing it visually and kind of understanding Ah, okay, that’s where that comes into the equation. And this is where this is going to kind of fall into it. And I mean, even something like that. My first question back to you is, you know, what do you expect? I mean, I guess the answer is coming from me as your accountant. But what do you expect your business to have in profit or loss at the end of the year? And a lot of people don’t even really think about the fact that they have to answer that question first before we can even get to that. So it really starts getting you thinking about all the different inputs that ultimately work their way into that one little line on your return.

Tim Ulbrich 11:05

And this is where you can see like, hey, if we pull the lever, and we max out the HSA, or we put money into more into the traditional 401k, whatever might be the outcome, like what does it actually change when we get to the bottom and we look at the tax liability. So really powerful if we can get that projection process in place. So that was number two on our list of 10 common tax blunders to avoid. Number three on list is undervaluing the power of the HSA. We’ve talked at length on this show about health savings accounts. We’ll link to in the show notes our previous episodes on HSAs. Talk to us, Sean, it surprises me a little bit to be honest, that we’re still seeing the HSA be underutilized.

Sean Richards 12:16

Yeah, I think it’s one of those things and I think you, you certainly don’t see it once you’re kind of working with us. And you’ve been able to kind of see the power, hear us talk about it, or visually show, hey, this is what could have been or anything like that. But I think it really kind of comes down to sort of just the education in the country broadly about some of these things like 401K, HSA kind of everything. You know, you get thrown into your first job out of college, and you have to sign 1000 pieces of paper in your onboarding stuff from HR and put you know what percentage of this you want and traditional Roth and all these numbers kind of get thrown out there, and you lose the benefits or you think, hey, maybe I’ll I’ll throw some percentage here and some percentage here and some percentage here. And that’s, you know, obviously a pretty good strategy as far as spreading things out and stuff, but HSAs have a triple tax benefit. Most if any other retirement vehicles have that. So by not maximizing that HSA, if you have that available to you, you’re really losing out, even if you are kind of spreading the love to other places first, I mean, you want to really be able to get that triple benefit there before you start going elsewhere. So when I say triple tax benefit, when you make your contributions this year, or if they’re coming out of your paycheck, that’s a tax deduction, or it’s coming out of your taxable income, reducing your taxable income, the growth of the investment tax free. And then when you take it out, assuming it’s for qualified expenses, also tax free. So usually you’re getting one maybe two of those, like you tax free now, but then you pay the tax in the future, or vice versa. This is the only one that has that that triple, so it’s awesome. The one thing I will say there is that on the flip side, I’ll see plenty of times where you know, you get excited and sign up for the first time and might miss you know, you’re working a couple jobs or something and over contribute. So it as long as it’s something that you catch, not a problem, we can fix that even if we get past the end of the year, you know, you can have those things returned. But something to try to get ahead of, as I say with great power comes great responsibility. So a lot of power with the HSA. But rules just like everything else to keep track of and limits and everything. So you just want to make sure that you’re staying on top of those two.

Tim Ulbrich 14:28

Yeah, tracking expenses, are they qualified, making sure you’re using it appropriately? All important things. You know, I like to refer to the HSA as a legal tax avoidance vehicle. Right. So that’s a good one. To your point, we don’t see that in other accounts. And so, you know, I think there’s always the debate of, Hey, am I actually going to potentially need these funds for qualified health care expenses, and if so great, we can get the tax benefits. If not, and or I’m not projecting that I’m gonna need it, then there’s some options to use this as, you know what we call kind of a stealth IRA potentially, another option when it comes to long term savings and investing. Alright, so that’s number three. undervaluing the power of the HSA on our list of 10 Common tax blunders to avoid. Number four is not optimizing retirement contributions. Tell us more here.

Sean Richards 15:21

So, that kind of follows the HSA thing, as you were sort of alluding to there. And HSA is kind of like a retirement vehicle. It’s sort of intended as being used for health expenses, but it can also kind of be used as a retirement vehicle. So that is, can fall under this umbrella. But what I’m talking about here is, you know, you hear IRAs, 401Ks. Another great example of where you start your first job, they start throwing all these things out at you, you know that there’s tax benefits, you know that you should be putting money into these things, but how to actually optimize that. And not only that, but how to actually optimize it for whatever your broader financial strategy is. Because I’ll have folks come to me and say, Hey, should I max out my 401K? Well, first off, do you mean traditional 401k? Or do you mean Roth 401k? Traditional, you’ll have the tax savings now, Roth you get in the future. And you know, that begins to go back to well, though, the question that I’ll get is, Well, which one should I do? And the answer is, you know, what is your broader financial plan? Where do you think you’re going to be? I mean, I’ll tell you now, as the tax guy, traditional 401k is going to give you the tax savings now, you look good, I guess, when we do our returns, but is that really what’s going to be the best for you and your financial situation, given where you expect to be in the future. So knowing that breakdown, I mean, even just I talk about IRAs and 401K’s people use those interchangeably. They’re very, very different. They’re very, very similar. They have, you know, similar components, where you have traditional and Roth to choose from, you can have pre tax components and non pre tax components. But they’re very different in the sense that there’s different limits that apply to them. There’s different phase outs, whether you’re in, you know, make more income and everything. So just understanding even Hey, what, what options do you have? Let’s start with that. And then from there, what are your financial goals? And how can we make the options available to you best suit those financial goals? So there’s just a lot being left on the table there. And I think it all comes back to you know, not planning ahead of time.

Tim Ulbrich 17:26

And Sean, your your example of you know, when somebody comes to you and says, Hey, should I do Roth? Should I do traditional? And you say, it depends without saying it depends, like Tim Baker says it depends. But that’s really what you’re getting to is it does depends, because we can’t make that decision in a silo. And this is why we believe so much in the value of having a CFP and a CPA on your team that can communicate and talk with one another and really look at these decisions, you know, as you’re making a decision on what investment contribution or if you’re approaching retirement, and you’re thinking about the withdrawal phase that has tax implications, has planning implications, you put those two together, and we can start to look at the whole picture and make that decision that’s optimal. Number five, I’m curious about this one, Sean. So you’re referring to number five as quote, wasting itemized deductions? I’m curious, because it feels like with the rise in the amount of the standard deduction, that itemized deductions maybe aren’t as prevalent or common. So what are you referring to here?

Sean Richards 18:27

Well, that actually is what you just said, is actually one of the things that I’m kind of getting at there. And that’s kind of not factoring in the fact that the standard deduction is getting higher every year, and it kind of continues to go that way. And so, you know, traditionally, we’ve all kind of had this idea of once you buy a house, you’re gonna itemize deductions, and you have all these sort of miscellaneous deductions that come into play. But a few years ago with the the tax law changes, and the Tax Cut and Jobs Act, a lot of that stuff went away, and a lot of the deductions were either limited or or outright removed in favor of that standard reduction going up. And when I say wasting, you know, there’s a couple of different things here, but particularly, what you just said is, if you have a lot of itemized deductions, but they don’t hit that standard deduction amount, and you end up still taking the standard deduction, which is what we would typically do, you know, barring any other kinds of reasons why we couldn’t, a lot of folks feel like they’ve lost their itemized deductions. They’re like, wait a minute, wait a minute. So you’re telling me I, I put $1,000 towards charity last year, I paid this much toward my mortgage, and I paid this much in taxes, and I’m not, I don’t get credit for that?

Tim Ulbrich 19:35

That’s what the standard deduction is!

Sean Richards 19:36

Yeah. And it’s hard to say, you know, you don’t get credit for it. But the standard deduction is more, so we’re going to take that and, you know, that’s, that’s what’s gonna give you the best savings. Now, there are ways to maximize that if you do kind of look at it ahead of time. You might have the ability to do something that we call bunching where you say, hey, let’s try to pull itemized deductions into one year and itemize then and then have less than another year and take advantage of that higher standard deduction. Or you know, you have PSLF is a huge thing, right, of course, with pharmacists. And typically when we have folks that are doing PSLF, we want to look at filing status and potentially filing separately. And when you file separately, you that brings in new itemized deduction, when you itemize, your spouse can’t take the standard deduction, vice versa. So you have situations there where you have one spouse that’s paying a bunch towards mortgage interest. But at the end of the day, you both take the standard deduction, there’s just a lot of things that can kind of come into play there. And that’s one of the ones that you really don’t have a lot of flexibility with after the fact. I mean, that’s the case with a lot of tax stuff. But this in particular is one of those things that you really want to think about it ahead of time, like where what filing status, are we going to be possibly filing as, what’s the standard deduction, what do we have for itemized deductions and try to maximize it as best you can? Because there’s nothing worse than telling somebody, yeah, that money that you donated, I mean, it’s great for you morally, but it’s not gonna help your taxes this year.

Tim Ulbrich 21:04

So Sean, let’s talk about bunching a little bit more, I think this is something we’re seeing more common among our clients and questions, and maybe just an awareness and an education about who this might be a good fit for. So if I’m following this correctly, if we if we look to 2024, the standard deduction for married filing jointly is going up to $29,200. So if someone’s listening, and they were to itemize, which again, it wouldn’t make sense if it’s below the $29,200. But if they weren’t itemizing, it’s $25k, $26k, $20k. Somewhere in that range, or ish, like, that’s where you start to look at and say, Oh, are there opportunities that, hey, maybe some of the giving we have planned for next year, or other things that we could push into this year? Maybe we itemize one year? And then the next year we go standard? Am I following that? right?

Sean Richards 21:50

Exactly. And it’s one of those things, this is an example where the visual, I think, makes the most sense, because we can put a couple examples next to each other and say, like, Hey, this is what it’ll look like if we take the standard deduction every year. But this is what it looks like if we sort of shift these things around. And for some folks, you might not even have the ability to make those changes, right. Like if you’re, if the primary driver of your itemized deductions is your mortgage interest, and you’re not really doing any charitable contributions, there’s only so much you can really do about your mortgage, that I mean, maybe you can prepay interest or something, but that’s not going to change a lot. You have other folks who may have, you know, mortgage or lower mortgage interest, taxes get capped at 10k, too, as of right now, with the with the law changes I was talking about earlier. But you also so you might have some people who have a huge number of charitable contributions, and they can pull that lever and like you were kind of saying, hey, maybe we pull them into this year, or defer to next year. But the big thing I’ll say there is that a lot of people will then kind of come back to me and say, well, that doesn’t fit my giving strategy. I, I do a certain percentage every month, and it goes that way. And I don’t want to change that because that would change, you know, the way that the church is able to use my money or something like that. And that’s perfectly fine. I just want to have those discussions ahead of time, and be all on the same page and say, Hey, we’re making this decision for a reason, not looking back and saying, ah wish we had done this, you know, last year, maybe next year.

Tim Ulbrich 23:20

As we talked about all the time on the financial planning side of the business, right? financial decisions, or combination of the math, and how do we emotionally feel about those decisions, right? Same thing here, we might look at the giving strategy and say, You know what, we’re willing to give up a little bit of potential tax savings, because we want to give in this matter, so be it. Let’s just look at the options and what we have available. Number six is not saving for taxes when earning additional income. I’m laughing because I know this comes up all the time where you know, side hustlers, new business owners, people that are launching something, they’ve got some revenue, and then there’s a oh, crap moment, right?

Sean Richards 23:52

Yeah. And this one is tough because I mean, no one has a crystal ball. Right? So as I was just saying on one of the ones before, my question to you, when we’re doing projections is where you expect the business to land in profit and loss this year, and you have a pretty good idea, or at least you hope you do. But that can always change for anybody, not none of us can see the future. But the point here is, at least giving it some thought and trying to come up with a number and planning accordingly. And the biggest thing I would say here is not only just thinking about it, kind of in a one track mind, really thinking about the many different implications that side income can have. If you have self employment income, you’re going to have regular ordinary income tax on that just like you would if you’re working a W2 job, but you’re also going to have self employment tax on that, which is basically the government’s way of saying hey, we want the FICA that you’d be paying, we’re withholding as an employee and the FICA that you usually don’t see your employer pay for you in a W2 job. And that’s, you know, 17%. So all of a sudden you have that plus your ordinary income tax rate and you’re looking at 30 something percent at the end of the year. And now again, there’s different deductions that come into play, there’s a lot more that go into the broader calculation, but at least you know, getting ahead of that and saying, Okay, I’m expecting my business to earn 50k this year of of net profit. I’m going to have to pay income tax on that, self employment tax on that, state tax on that, at least saying, Alright, this is what I expect my liability to be at the worst. And putting aside a percentage of that or something. Again, and I probably sound like a broken record, it all comes back to planning and projecting and thinking ahead, because nobody wants to get to the end of the year and have their accountant say, Awesome work. First time, you know, doing the side gig, you made a bunch of money, now you owe a bunch of taxes. So again, just getting ahead of that putting the money aside, doing the math on it, thinking about those other taxes. If it’s rental income, you don’t have self employment tax, but you have passive loss limitations. So if you have a rental property, and you have a lot of losses there, you’re not necessarily going to be able to take those against your active income because of different limitations. So probably now starting to put people to sleep. But it all goes back to really trying to think about where those other side income sources are, and what is possibly going to hit your return at the end of the year.

Tim Ulbrich 26:13

Yeah, and, you know, to be fair, we also have to be realistic, right? So for new business owners, new side hustlers, you know, you can only do so much planning. Now, once you’ve got a couple years under your belt, you kind of get an idea where things are going, you know, just like we do in the business, you do some projections, even then we get it wrong, but we’re within the realm, right, because we’ve done it for seven or eight years, when someone’s launching a brand new business, your side hustle, you know, they may think they’re going to earn $50,000. And they end up earning two. Or they think they’re going to earn two and earn 50. Because they just don’t know, right at that point. So I think in those cases, you know, you don’t have a great bookkeeping system, that’s going to take time for that to build up, of course, but the point being set aside a percentage of the income to be conservative, call it potential tax. And then as you get further along, there’s going to be more detail to be done and what those projections are, but just don’t spend it all and have nothing there for tax.

Sean Richards 27:08

Right. Just put something there. And the other thing that that you mentioned that I almost forgot about is the fact that I’m kind of just broadly saying, Hey, Tim, what’s your profit gonna be in your business at the end of the year? For a lot of folks, you know, just figuring that out is difficult, you might be able to say, hey, I have a client that’s going to pay me $10,000 this year. And so I’m going to $10,000 of income. Well, yeah, that’s true. But we’re also going to have expenses. And the first question I get are, well, what expenses can I deduct? So asking those questions now, and talking about the different things that are deductible, what fits as a legitimate business expense, all those things is much better than at the end of the year, sending me a 1099 and saying, Hey, I made 10 grand. I don’t have any expenses. Let’s try to figure it out. Right. It’s just trying to get ahead of those things and thinking about it now. That’s where you can start making decisions and not being reactive.

Tim Ulbrich 28:03

Number seven, on our list of common tax blunders to avoid, many of these coming from the 2023 filing year that we just wrapped up is not making estimated tax payments. And, you know, the question here being, I think, who does need to be making estimated tax payments and what’s the blunder here?

Sean Richards 28:22

Yeah, and I probably could have reworded that a little bit. But estimated tax payments, it kind of follows right after the the question above in the sense that most folks here are probably going to be folks that earn additional income. And when I say additional income, I mean income from sources non W2 where you don’t have those withholdings. So typically you think you get your paycheck every two weeks. And the employer, the payroll company is withholding your share of FICA, federal income tax, state income tax and remitting that to the government. Because think about your least financially savvy friend at the end of the year, if they didn’t have that happening, would they be able to pay their taxes? Probably almost certainly not. Because I see a lot of financially responsible folks who are very, very well educated and great with their cash and they still struggle the to put money aside the end of the year, let alone you know, people who are completely struggling. So the government recognizes this. They want your your cash on a regular basis. And for most folks, that’s going to be withholdings. However, if your withholdings aren’t covering off for whatever reason, whether you’re not withholding enough at your W2 jobs, or as I said is more of the common case you have side income, you should be making estimated payments to supplement it. So the rough rule there is if you are going to owe $1,000 at filing time, you should be paying estimated taxes. The first question I would probably get from someone is am I expected to owe that? And then of course the answer is well, let’s do a projection and find out. But basically, yeah, once you do a projection if you’re looking at this, and you can do it multiple ways where you’re starting with your business, but whatever, you gotta you have to keep in mind all the different pieces, right? Like I, a lot of people will say, Hey, I have this business, how much should I put aside for it and just like the example we just talked about, if I told you to put aside 30% to cover off on your income tax and self employment tax or whatever, that’s not necessarily going to work for you because you might have a ton of credits from children or you might have, you might have bought an EV this year and are getting a big credit. So you have to think about all the components and then look at and say, All right, am I going to owe or am I not going to owe. And when you get to that point, if it’s if it looks like you’re going to owe more than $1,000, either adjust withholdings or you should be paying in regularly. So estimated taxes is basically whatever that balance is that you expect to owe. They just want you to pay that in evenly quarterly throughout the year. It’s not perfectly quarterly because the IRS can’t be that easy about things. But it’s basically saying, Hey, we don’t have withholdings, so send us in that piece that you’re missing, that you should be withholding every few months to supplement. The one big thing I will say here is that a lot of folks will assume, hey, and especially with extensions, right? If you and I’ll say this till the day I die, if you file an extension, it gives you six months to file, but not to pay your ta liability. Like a lot of folks will say, as long as I pay my tax liability by tax day, I’m good to go no matter what. I mean, even if I do an extension, as long as I pay that money, then I’m fine. But the piece that I try to hammer home for folks is that even throughout the year kind of thing, the quarterly thing I was mentioning, so if you’re expected to owe 10 grand, and you go at the end of the year and pay that in April, when you file, the IRS is going to be angry and say hey, you should have been paying that in the year here. And they’re going to slap you. Yeah. So again, broken record, all comes down to planning. But to the extent you’re able to identify any kind of gaps in where you expect to owe money at the end of the year and can close them now whether that’s making estimated payments directly to the IRS or adjusting your withholdings, it’s much better to fix it now and get ahead of it. Then the flip side and trying to you know, request a penalty abatement in the back end.

Tim Ulbrich 32:18

Yeah, just to reinforce a an important point you made, Sean, is that if you do file an extension, which to be clear, like is not a bad thing.

Sean Richards 32:26

Not at all whatsoever.

Tim Ulbrich 32:28

Yeah, we really believe as we say over and over again and right over rushed. And there’s a value in the extension process. But that is not a pass on paying your tax that is due. So there’s work that has to be done, when you go to file that extension to figure out like, Hey, do we have a tax liability due, so we can make that payment, but we’re giving ourselves an extended time to be able to finish everything up and actually get the return in.

Sean Richards 32:52

And I mean, that might have even been an extreme example, like if you didn’t file an extension, even which again, I think extensions are one of the most underutilized things in the tax code. But if you didn’t do that, and you still owed at the end of the year and paid all that money in on December 31, the IRS is still going to be mad because they’re still going to say you should have been paying it in January, February, March, April. So the name of the game here is just making sure that you’re not ever getting too far away from where you expect your tax liability to be and what you’ve paid in any given point in the year.

Tim Ulbrich 33:26

Which is why for the small business owner listening, this is why it is so important to have a system that is operationalized in your business where you have books and records that are being kept, whether it’s quarterly, whether that’s monthly, whatever your business needs, and you’re able to then use that information to feed into what you need to be making in terms of those estimated payments. So I’ll preach that. And I’ll preach it saying, Hey, we have it’s taken us a while to kind of figure this out. And to get into this rhythm and it’s not going to be perfect. It’s going to be you know, messy as you’re developing it. But so important over time as you get some stability in the business to have that type of system and predictability. Number eight on the list is overlooking investment, activity. Activity being the key word here, right?

Sean Richards 34:11

Yeah, so this is a lot I could you know, another example of one where I could spend a whole session or whole podcast going through this. But really, the big thing here is just thinking about the different types of investment activity that you may have. And right like you just said activity is kind of the name of the game here. So just because you have investments doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re going to have a tax liability or any kind of tax implications associated with it. But thinking about what types of activity you had going on in a particular year and making sure you’re getting ahead of that is going to be crucial, especially now with all these different types of types of stock performance incentives that folks have so restricted stock units, RSUs; employee purchase, employee stock purchase programs, ESPP; ISOs, incentive of stock options. All these different things, they’re all great. It’s just one of those things where you want to make sure you’re at least understanding the tax implications beforehand, because for some of those, you know, you won’t actually have a any kind of thing to do necessarily, or liabilities to take care of until you actually go and sell some of those shares. Typically, that’s the case. But again, just understanding how that works, knowing that you might need to get additional information to your accountant, hopefully us, to be able to adjust basis for taxes that you’ve already paid. I’ve seen a lot of people who paid double on some of these things, because they already paid when they were when some of the stocks vested. And then kind of paid taxes on that a second time when they sold those, those stocks. So lots to think about there. I mean, there was higher interest rates last year across the board. So a lot of folks had higher investment income, like interest income and stuff, which is great. But again, just something you want to plan for, there’s usually no withholdings there, you start making good money, the net investment income tax comes in. So that’s just a little additional tax on investment income. But it’s one of those things where the more I talk about it, the more people are probably spinning their heads. But a lot of folks have a lot of different types of investments, whether you think you do or you don’t, you know, even just having a few bank accounts and a couple shares of stocks here and there is enough that if you’re making moves on those, those can really affect your taxes. So just making sure you’re taking advantage of anything. And again, really think about the activity that you had in a year. What did I do? Did I sell anything? Did I buy anything? Did I convert anything? That kind of stuff.

Tim Ulbrich 36:36

We don’t typically think about, you know, interest in high yield savings accounts as being significant enough, right, that we have to plan for it. As you mentioned, we don’t have withholdings, right, that come out of your high yield savings account interest. However, when we think about this past year, especially people may have higher amounts in those accounts for people listening to that $50, $100, $150,000 across high yield savings accounts, earning four and a quarter, four and a half percent. That adds up pretty quickly.

Sean Richards 37:01

That’s literally what it is like, and, you know, we would do projections and get really, really close for folks, but be off by you know, a few $1,000 at the end of the year and looking at and saying, Hey, what what was often our, or what did we miss in our in our assumptions when we were looking at this? And a lot of the times we’re under estimating just simple interest income because people had cash sitting in some of the high yield savings accounts. But if you’re in high tax brackets, and you have that net investment income tax coming in, all the sudden a few $1,000 of income is a few $1,000 of taxes. So yeah, not a bad thing. But just something you want plan for.

Tim Ulbrich 37:39

Number nine on our list of 10 Common tax blunders to avoid from the 2023 filings is misunderstanding some of the tax law changes. What what are you referring to here?

Sean Richards 37:49

Yeah, so this one is going to be a little kind of twofold. So typically, when I’ve been saying tax law changes, the biggest things in the past few years have been energy credits. So the Inflation Reduction Act that Biden signed a couple of years ago, really expanded a lot of EV, green, other types of energy efficient credits. And those have been awesome for many folks, lots of good tax savings there. Again, it expanded a lot of things that apply, and it got rid of a lot of the limits that used to apply for some of these things. So there’s a lot of savings to be had. And tax credits. This is that’s what all of these kind of EV and green credits are, they’re their credits, those are dollar for dollar savings against tax liability, as opposed to a deduction, which just reduces your taxable income and really only reduces your tax by the percentage of your of your rate. These are credits. So it’s bang for your buck, the big deal. The only thing I’ll say on the energy credit side is as much as there’s a lot of room to save, there’s a lot of misunderstandings of, hey, I bought a plug in or a hybrid last year. So where’s my tax credit? Well, some plug in hybrids count, but not all hybrids count. Or, you know, I did this work on my house. And I was expecting to only get this much of a credit, but oh, actually, it was solar. So it’s a 30% credit with no limit, you know, you can have the opposite side of that, and planning accordingly with those things. Again, not that it’s necessarily the worst thing in the world to have a big refund. But if you can think about it ahead of time and say, Hey, I’m buying an Eevee this year, and you know that you’re gonna get 7500 bucks back as a credit. Yep, there’s a pretty good chance you can adjust your withholdings this year and get some of that cash back now and not have to worry about it at the end of the year. The flip side, and this might begin to scare folks, but it is thinking about other kinds of broader tax law changes. And when I think about this, I think of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act sunsetting. Which it’s supposed to be doing in 2026 or at the end of 2025. So a lot of the was things I was talking about the itemized deduction changes, but one that people might not really even have remembered is the fact that tax brackets all went down when that happened. And in a couple of years, those are supposed to go back to the rates that they were. Will that happen? Who knows, we have no idea who will the President will be what, Congress’s makeup will be. But having an eye on that, and knowing at least now, hey, in two years, we’re expecting these rates are going to go up. So being able to plan accordingly and knowing that, hey, in two years, itemized deductions are going to change quite a bit, or the standard deduction is going to change. Getting ahead of those things. I know, it sounds crazy to be thinking a couple years out in the future. But when we’re talking about projections and thinking about pulling levers, those things actually do start to come into play. So I don’t want to scare folks. But it’s one of those things where, you know, all of a sudden, there’s sweeping tax changes, and it’s kind of swept under the rug because of all the other political turmoil and everything going on. So something Yeah, I just don’t want lost on folks.

Tim Ulbrich 41:02

It’s interesting. You bring up Sean the tax cut and jobs, I remember the passage of that, and 2016, you know, I filed graduated 2008. So I graduated, filed several years before that was in place, but you don’t think about that, right? As well, when when it’s going in the favorable direction of what that means to cash flow. But it’d be interesting, and we’ll see politically what would happen. You know, you can imagine some of the turmoil if that were to go in the other direction and impact on what could be.

Sean Richards 41:29

Exactly and you know, for most folks, your withholdings likely will adjust accordingly. So you’re probably not going to end up with like a huge tax bill, so to speak. But there’s a pretty good chance that in a couple years, you’re going to be paying in more of every paycheck towards the government. Or even worse, if you have a side gig, you might be having a liability building up that’s bigger than it has been in previous years. And if you don’t have a system for saving, you’ll be in trouble.

Tim Ulbrich 41:30

All right on the homestretch number ten on our list, what would it be if we didn’t talk about some of the real annoying stuff under estimating state and local tax complexities. This is your favorite topic, Sean?

Sean Richards 42:08

Yeah, it is, because we’re probably what I will maybe not one of the few firms. But you know, there’s not a ton of firms probably that are virtual like we are and work with clients across the entire country, a lot of tax and accounting firms tend to be kind of specific to a regional area. So I’m probably you know, in a smaller minority, in a minority of CPAs that deal with this, but it definitely comes up quite a bit with our client base. And I think that’s a notion of, you know, just people doing a lot of traveling and moving. But especially with a lot of the careers now and being able to work remote. You know, you have people working from home part time, full time you have people doing traveling nursing or even pharmacy related gigs like that. And anytime you’re doing work and you’re crossing state borders, there’s most likely tax implications associated with that. And does that mean that you’re going to necessarily have to pay tax in another state, if you were working there briefly, maybe, probably not. But just understanding the different rules around those things and being able to maximize them too. If you’re living in a state where you’re you’re working in a state and living in a state and one has a higher income tax rate than the other, but you have the ability to kind of choose your residency based on the tax rules, you know, that’s something that you’d want to do ahead of time. So just thinking about those different types of things, making sure you’re withholding enough. Local taxes. There’s other states besides Ohio, but Ohio being the biggest one there. I don’t understand how, folks, you know, just working a job down the street can keep up with all those things, but local taxes, understanding where you live, what the school district taxes are versus the residence town tax versus the city town, you know, all these different taxes, it can be overwhelming, just under estimating how complex some of that stuff can be not having a hand on the wheel. I just talked about all those nine things. And those can all be applied to the federal income tax return. We’ll apply them all to the state and local returns as well. So I’m sure folks living in Florida, Texas, Washington, New Hampshire all shut off. But people in Ohio probably crank the volume on that last one there. So definitely not something to take too lightly.

Tim Ulbrich 44:22

This is timely, and I was knocking on RITA earlier, but we are dealing with a RITA issue this week. And you know, just some lingering things and it feels like every once in a while we’ll get random notices from them for those that have a business that you sell product, you got sales tax. I mean, there’s just so many layers of things to keep up with.

Sean Richards 44:39

Exactly and it goes back to kind of understanding the tax calculation and how all these things go together. Yeah, and sometimes visually really is the best way to do that and seeing like if I send an email to someone and say, Hey, in Ohio, you have this federal tax you have this schedule C, you have self employment tax. You also have Ohio tax, that you RITA and then you have a tax where you work, but also where you live. And then you also have a school district tax. People are like, What are you talking about? But when you actually look at where it falls into returns, it makes a lot more sense. So doing that only once a year to me just isn’t sufficient given how complex I see these situations becoming.

Tim Ulbrich 45:19

As Sean mentioned, at YFP Tax, we work with pharmacists, households, and others all across the country. So we have a virtual paperless firm that we’re very proud of. We also obviously supplement that with our financial planning services, which most of our listeners are well familiar with that. If you want to learn more about our comprehensive year round tax planning, what’s involved with that, I think we’ve laid out the case of why that is a good fit and a service that many people should be thinking about. But if you want to determine if it’s a good fit for your situation, you get a YFPtax.com You can learn more and book a free discovery call with my partner, Tim Baker to determine whether or not that’s a service is the right fit for you, Sean, great stuff as always, we’ll be talking more tax throughout the year. Thanks for taking the time to come on.

Sean Richards 46:04

Yeah, thank you. Have a good one.

Tim Ulbrich 46:06

You too.

Tim Ulbrich 46:08

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacists unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 368: How Much is Enough for Kids College?

Posted on by YFP Media

Tim Baker helps parents navigate saving for their child’s college education, from projecting costs and balancing goals to 529 plans.

This episode is brought to you by First Horizon.

Episode Summary

Most parents desire to contribute toward their child’s college tuition; however, knowing how much to save and plan for can be a bit of a moving target. How much is enough to save for college?

Tim Baker, YFP Co-Founder and Director of Financial Planning, lays out the financial roadmap to help parents navigate the complexities of college savings. Tim emphasizes the importance of prioritizing college savings, projecting future costs, and balancing these savings with other financial goals. He also breaks down the benefits of starting early and making consistent contributions to make the goal more attainable.

Learn more about education savings options, including 529 plans and Coverdale education savings accounts. Tim also shares the ⅓ rule for funding college education that listeners may find make the reality of saving for their child’s future education more attainable.

This episode is brought to you by First Horizon.

About Today’s Guest

Tim Baker is the Co-Founder and Director of Financial Planning at Your Financial Pharmacist. Founded in 2015, YFP is a fee-only financial planning firm and connects with the YFP community of 12,000+ pharmacy professionals via the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast podcast, blog, website resources and speaking engagements.

Tim attended the United States Military Academy majoring in International Relations and branching Armor. After his military career, he worked as a logistician with a major retailer and a construction company. After much deliberation, Tim decided to make a pivot in his career and joined a small independent financial planning firm in 2012. In 2016, he launched his own financial planning firm Script Financial and in 2019 merged with Your Financial Pharmacist. Tim now lives in Columbus, Ohio with his wife (Shay), three kids (Olivia, Liam and Zoe), and dog (Benji).

Key Points from the Episode

Saving for kids’ college, prioritizing investments, and mortgage options for pharmacists. [0:00]
Saving for kids’ college, varying opinions on approach. [2:13]
Prioritizing investing for kids college amidst other financial goals. [6:05]
Financial planning for education costs, including 529 plans and other options. [11:13]
Education savings options for kids, including 529 plans and UTMA/Coverdale accounts. [15:41]
529 college savings plans with potential tax benefits and flexibility. [21:08]
Saving for college, including 1/3 rule and assumptions. [25:23]
Saving for college using 1/3 rule and financial planning tools. [30:02]
College savings for a 9-year-old girl, with current balance and projected needs. [34:39]
Saving for children’s education expenses. [38:39]
Saving for college and financial planning with a certified financial planner. [42:56]

Episode Highlights

“So your retirement should come before your children’s college tuition. There’s no financial aid in retirement, and there’s still a good amount of that, you know, for your kid’s schooling.” – Tim Baker [9:54]

“The further we go in the future, the more uncertainty. But we can make some educated guesses and conjectures. Again, it goes back to the whole idea of, it’s more about planning than the plan, because life happens, things change.” – Tim Baker [13:36]

“Saving for your kid’s college is just like your retirement. It’s like when I say to clients, hey, you need $2 million to retire, you are looking at me like I have 2 million heads. It’s a big number, way in the future. The same thing holds true with education. It just feels more than what it actually is.” – Tim Baker [43:01]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, Tim Baker and I revisit saving for kids college, a topic that is top of mind for both of us in our own financial plans. Before we answer the question how much is enough when it comes to saving for kids college, we discussed the priority for investing, including where kids college savings fits among other goals, and the differences between common vehicles that are used for saving for kids college. Let’s hear a message from today’s sponsor, First Horizon, and then we’ll jump in our discussion of how much is enough when it comes to saving for kids college.

Tim Ulbrich 00:40

Does saving 20% for a down payment on a home feels like an uphill battle? It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high student loan debt, meaning that saving 20% for a down payment on a home may take years. For several years now we’ve been partnering with First Horizon, who offers a professional home loan option AKA a doctor or pharmacist loan that requires a 3% downpayment for a single family home or a townhome. For first time homebuyers, has no PMI and offers a 30 year fixed rate mortgage on home loans up to $766,550 in most areas. The pharmacist home loan is available in all states except Alaska and Hawaii, and can be used to purchase condos as well. However, rates may be higher and a condo review has to be completed. While I’ve personally worked with First Horizon before and had a great experience with Tony and his team, don’t just take it from me. Here’s what Emily from Prattville, Alabama had to say about her experience with First Horizon: “Clear communication and excellent guidance from Gail and Cindy throughout the entire process. I greatly appreciated the fact that everything was digital, because I’m allergic to paper, the ability to upload inside everything digitally made the process very efficient, which I prefer. This was by far the best mortgage process I have experienced. This is my seventh when counting refinances.” So to check out the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to start the pre-approval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacists.com/ home-loan.

Tim Ulbrich 02:13

Tim, it’s good to have you back on the show.

Tim Baker 02:15

Good to be back, Tim, how’s it going?

Tim Ulbrich 02:16

It is going well, this is gonna be a fun one. We’re discussing a topic that is top of mind for both of us in our own financial plans. I’ve got four kids 12 and under, you’ve got three kids nine and under. And we’re in that prime window where saving for kids college is getting real, right? We look at our older children and say, Hey, that’s not too far off. And it really begs the question, are we on track? And I don’t know about you. But for me, it feels like early on when the boys were much younger, younger it was this concept of hey, let’s start putting money away. And we’ll worry about that later. Worried about that later is right now.

Tim Baker 02:55

Yeah, life comes at you fast, right, Tim? So, you know, a lot of a lot of people, you know, they might say, hey, I’ll get to that, or, you know, I talk to prospective clients all the time and it’s like, yeah, I really want to, I really want to put money away for my kids college. And I’ve been thinking about it for a while. And, you know, I’m like, Well, how old is your son or daughter? And it’s like, oh, they’re eight? You know, so how long did you think about this? For eight years. So it is one of those things that sometimes that’s true, that holds true for retirement too, Tim so, you know, it’s it’s one of those things where the sooner you bet, you know, the sooner you do it, the better. You know, it makes, it makes the amount that you are, you know, your what you’re trying to do easier to kind of achieve. So, yeah, we’re right in the thick of it and and hoping that, you know, the cost of college, you know, doesn’t continue to kind of inflate at what it has in the past. But you know, no control over that, obviously.

Tim Ulbrich 03:48

Yeah, and we’re going to talk about that specifically because when we get to the part of trying to determine how much is enough, we got to make some assumptions on what is going to be the cost of college into the future. Now for those that are listening, that have kids that are butting up against college, we know what those numbers are going to be or likely be. But for those that have kids that are much, much younger, trying to project out 15, 16, 17 years, what college costs may look like, can certainly be more more challenging. Tim, I want to get your perspective on what seems to be a varying philosophy around saving for kids college. I recently published a poll on LinkedIn asking individuals how are you approaching saving for kids college and there was over 260 people that responded and here Here are the results. 30% said that they plan to fully fund their kids college. 61% said they plan to partially fund and just shy of 10% said you know what? They’re on their own. Kids got to figure it out on their own. So when you hear that and interactions you’ve had with clients and anything surprised you there?

Tim Baker 04:54

Um, I am surprised, I am a little surprised. I feel like, I feel like the 60% of like the partial would have been a lot more. Like that would have been closer to like 80. And they may be like 10 and 10. On, you know, the they’re on their own, or I’m going to do 100%. So that that’s probably the only thing. Because yeah, I talk to clients all the time. And it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s those three things. It’s like, Hey, I went through this. So my kid has to go through it, I went through this, I never want my kid to go through it. And then that in between of like, I want to provide something but I just don’t know what that is. So little surprised by the percentages, honestly, how big of a sample size was that?

Tim Ulbrich 05:37

Over 260 people. So pretty large group that responded. And there was a couple of comments that I think really, you know, drive home some of the differing opinions, and everyone obviously is there on their own journey. One person said, quote, they want to partially fund they referring to the kids, they need to have skin in the game. I’ve also heard of parents giving their kids cash directly for any scholarships they get. That’s a neat way of incentivizing working hard for them. Someone else said, Hey, would love to fully fund, but also need to look at my future and retirement. We’ll talk about that here in a little bit as it relates to the priority of investing, and how we want to think about kids college among other competing financial goals. So we’re going to break today’s discussion into three parts. Part one is going to be just that we’ll talk about the priority of investing, where might kids college fit into the broader part of the financial plan? Certainly, this is not investing advice, but some considerations there. Part two, we’ll talk about the common vehicles. And we’ll spend the most time on the 529 plan. And then part three will really spend time answering the question how much is enough. And I’m excited about that part because this is a piece that we haven’t drilled down into the details as much as the other two and for reference will link to these in the show notes. But we have talked about kids college previously, on the podcast, episode 195, we talked about how to save for your child’s education, and Episode 211, we talked about the ins and outs of the 529 college savings plan. So again, we’ll link to those make sure to check those out for more information. Tim, let’s start with that first part, which is the priority of investing. And I’m gonna go back to the comment that you made that, you know, for some people, especially when they came out with six figures or more of debt, you know, I’m thinking about my own journey of a couple $100,000 of debt, there can be a reaction of, hey, I never want my child to have to go through that either at all or something along those lines. And therefore, I’m going to start shoveling money into kids college savings accounts as early as possible. And not necessarily think about, you know, where that might lie in context with my own retirement savings or emergency funds or other parts of the financial goal. So it begs this question of where does kids college savings fit as a priority as we think about other investment vehicles or options? So what are your thoughts on that?

Tim Baker 07:56

Yeah, so, you know, I’ve had these conversations where people are like, I really want to get started and, you know, save for Jonny’s education or whatever. But you know, we’re looking at $25,000 in credit card debt, right. So not something that should be a high priority. We have to get through the consumer debt. So obviously, like, if we talk about the baby steps, we want to make sure that consumer debts in check, Tim, we want to make sure we have a proper emergency fund. Still a lot of people don’t, you know, come to the table with that. And that’s something that we have to work on. And what is a proper emergency fund? Where should we put it? It’s not an investment. Those that are based on I think, are the the big things, I’d be looking at it. You know, I think beyond that, you know, I think what most people would agree is shift into retirement and looking at what that looks like, you know, do we have a match? At least get the match? And then I think based on that, and again, I would be doing a retirement projection and a nest egg projection, I’d want to make sure that like some of the wealth protection stuff is sure enough, like, do you have the proper life insurance disability, that we have the state planning documents in place, all that kind of stuff, to then get back into the conversation of okay, what’s the next step after this? So a lot of people again, and the analogy that I like to use is like when you’re on the plane, and, you know, they say, Hey, if we lose cabin pressure and the mask come from, you know, that’s a really crappy situation, that’s not going to be fun. But put your mask on first, right? Put your mask on first before you you, you know, handle your your kids. So that’s going to be the same when we’re talking about retirement and an education plan. So your retirement should be should come before your children’s college tuition. There’s no financial aid in retirement, and there’s still a good amount of that, you know, for your kid’s schooling. We might get to a point Tim, where we’re not going to see the money flow as much for you know, for college loans and financial aid and things like that could be a real thing. reckoning that’s happening. However, I think there will always be alternatives, whether that That’s, you know, community college or trade schools are things that you can do that or at least get started. So that, to me is the big thing. I think when you get into the nuance of, of retirement, you know, the question I would I would ask to that person that clients like, are we on track for retirement? And if we are, obviously, like, let the money flow from an education perspective. If we’re not, that’s where I would want to, you know, and I think what a lot of people to Tim, they, what they do is, it’s not even really a question about what bucket they should fill. Part of it, part of what drives us is the tax benefits related something like a 529. So in Ohio, you can get up to $4,000 per student, regardless of filing status that is per year off of your Ohio State income tax. So a lot of people see that be like, boom, that’s what I’m going to do, or I want to get a portion of that without kind of doing the ABCs of where that should go. So I think outside of the match, I would say get the match. But then there’s probably a little bit more nuance in terms of like, okay, how do we then go from here, in terms of, are we putting more into the retirement? Are we are we putting more, are we starting to kind of, you know, flow monies into education planning.

Tim Ulbrich 11:13

Yeah. And what you’re sharing right there to me is such a good example of the benefit, one of the benefits of comprehensive financial planning. Because at the end of the day, we only have so much income to work with, hopefully, we can increase that income. We can only cut our expenses so much, and we’ve got a certain amount of cash flow, that we’re going to be able to assign to different financial goals, right. That could be building up an emergency fund that could be paying down debt, that could be a real estate purchase, that could be put money in a 529, that could be retirement savings for the future. And so we’re left with this decision of, hey, I’ve got all these balls potentially, to juggle in the air. How am I going to do that? And then what order? Second to it depends, probably the most common thing that we say on this podcast is you can’t make decisions in a silo when it comes to the financial plan. We’ve got to be able to take a step back and look at all the different factors so that we can see, okay, well, if I pull this lever, then what’s the impact of this part of the plan? Right? Because by pulling that driver putting money in a 529, that means we’re not probably doing something else. And are we okay with that or not? Okay with that. And if we project that out, what does that mean, for us in terms of achieving our financial goals? The other thing I would mention, and I know this episode is not focused on what we think is the future of higher ed. But because I spent over a decade in that space, I feel the need to comment, like, when you talk about something like the contraction, potentially, of access to financial aid and student loans, man, you’ve got to believe that if that were to happen in the future, there would be a significant shift in the business model of higher education at large, right? It’s already on the brink, I would say of some level of disruption, if that’s not already happening. And if there’s less resource going into the system, what does that mean, in terms of what the actual infrastructure looks like? The degree offerings, the supply and demand. So I think that is a relevant comment because one of the lingering questions behind all of this, especially for those very, very young kids is, what will this model look like in 15 to 20 years? What will the cost be? And that we need to know, or at least project out to some level to be able to do some assumptions?

Tim Baker 13:20

And sometimes with uncertainty, Tim, like, we can do one of two things, you know, it’s like, Well, I haven’t seen people do this with retirement, it’s like, I don’t really even know. So they maybe they over save? Or perhaps they just kind of throw their hands up there. And like, okay, whatever I have, I have. So, you know, it is a little bit you know, the further we go in the future, the more uncertainty we have, again, we can make, make some educated guesses and, and conjecture, but again, it goes back to the whole idea of, you know, you want to be you want to, it’s more about planning than the plan, because life happens, things change. And the reason I’m kind of, you know, distracted, like, I’m looking at my numbers, Tim, and we’ll go through this later, but like the numbers for like, Olivia is four year like, they went up from the last time I talked to talked about it. So I’m like, Oh, I gotta update these numbers, because they’re a little bit out of date. And what that means is, like, when I looked at these last month, the inflation numbers associated with education were higher than what they were a month ago. So the tool that I’m using was updated. So I’ve kind of updated my calculator to kind of back into that. So like, it’s planning now again, like for Olivia, who’s going to turn 10 This year, I still have eight years to kind of, you know, plan and figure this out, which makes it easier. The closer we get, obviously, you know, when she’s 16 We’ll have a little bit more of a picture of what education looks like but a whole lot less time to kind of change and plan you know, plan for that. So yeah.

Tim Ulbrich 14:48

So let’s shift gears and talk about the common vehicles. Again, we’ve covered this a little bit on previous episodes that will link to in the show notes, but there are various options out there right when it comes for saving for kids college everything from 529 plans which we’ll spend the majority of our time on, to the Coverdell Education savings accounts, UTMAs, Roth IRAs, heck, you could just open a brokerage account and save that way if people wanted to do that, but there’s clearly some pros and cons to these accounts and perhaps why the 529 has risen to the top for many, as you know, I guess if we get picked the most popular among this group, so tell us at a high level about those common vehicles that are out there and then we get into the 529s more specifically. Yeah,

Tim Baker 15:30

So the Coverdales, and the like the UTMAs and UGMAS are very similar. These are just custodial accounts that are like brokerage brokerage accounts, but they have the minor’s name on there. So the reason the Coverdale is aren’t as popular anymore, it’s because the amount of money that you could put in per year was like two or $3,000. I’ve actually I’ve never I might have seen one Coverdale account in my career in financial planning, so I don’t see them very, very often, the UGMAS and UTMAS, I see more often and actually have one for all three of my kids. And then all of my nieces and nephews is kind of my, like my nephew, Timmy just turned 10 yesterday. So I put money into as you know, he’s, he’s he lives out in Oregon, so I don’t see him as much I don’t really know what he’s into from a from a gift perspective. So I just put some cash into that. And the big thing for that, it’s like, I’m managing the account. I’m the, I’m the guardian on the account, once they age, once they reach the age of majority. So in certain states, that might be 18, other states that might be 19, or 21, that money is theirs, right? So so that for me is going to be a gift when all of my nieces and nephews and my kids like turn that they can use now they could use that for school. But they could also use that for something else, right? There’s not the strings attached like a 529 has where you have to use it for qualified education expenses. So with my daughter I’ve talked about it could be for school, it could be she’s talking about a gap year, I’m like, How do you even know what a gap year is you’re nine. It could be it could be to start a business, whatever that is so and that, and that, for me is a little bit more of a in your face vehicle for me to talk more about money on a long term basis, like right now we talk we have allowance and we have a save, spend and gift, this is kind of in the next thing. So that is a powerful tool, but not necessarily not necessarily just you know, for the purpose of education. Now, the big thing with that is like when they go to spend that money, capital gains tax is going to be a big part of that. So you have to you know, and that’s the same thing with, you know, like a brokerage account, if you’re just managing that for your kids, but their kid’s name isn’t on there. The other one that a lot of people will use is the Roth IRA, because you can take out the basis, you know, tax free penalty free. So you could use a Roth IRA, again, you could use your own Roth IRA, if your kid has like income, you could set up their own Roth IRA. So there’s a little bit of nuance there in terms of how you how you use that. I know a lot of people will use a Roth IRA, just because they don’t like the restrictions of the 529 just being used for qualified education expenses. So that’s something that people could use, I don’t personally use that, like I feel very comfortable with a 529, I feel very comfortable that the it’ll continue to continue to expand in terms of what you can use it for. So that really leaves a 529 in terms of vehicle. So the 529, Tim, is it’s a think of it as like a retirement account, except for education. So you can put after tax dollars in there, it grows tax free, you might get a state income tax deduction, like I mentioned, you can get $4,000 per beneficiary per year per person per beneficiary, in the state of Ohio. Every state’s going to be different, some states don’t have anything, some states have very generous, all all 529s are not created equal. So like you’re just some of them are gonna be really great. We were actually looking at the expenses the other day, and we were surprised that Ohio is a little bit higher than we thought. So you have to be cognizant of that. So you put the money in there, it grows tax free. And then if it’s used for qualified education expenses, which is typically tuition, fees, books, supplies, equipment, room and board, computer or like peripheral equipment or software, internet, that can all be you know, kind of, you know, part of that distribution. So, just like in a in a retirement account, you are kind of saving for, you know, 18 years or 10 years depending when you start so you have that accumulation period, and then that the accumulation period typically in retirement might be 10, 20, 30 years as you know until you until you die if you’re it’s typically four six, maybe eight years depending on what your goal is, you know from from an undergrad to, you know, masters, etc. So, that’s the big thing you put the money in, you invest it, a lot of them have target date funds, a lot of them you can you know you can pay the S&P 500. They grow the that tax free. And again, just to kind of reiterate that is, you know, when you buy when I buy XYZ ETF for my daughter in her in her UTMA account, we buy it at 100 shares, or $100 per share when she goes, You know, when she’s 18. And she’s now cashing that out, maybe that portion of her investment is $400 per share, which is great. But we have to pay the $300 per share capital gains and is going to be long term capital gains on that gain that we have. In the education account that you don’t have that. So that’s one of the benefits along with the state. So the UTMA, and the Coverdale gives you in the brokerage account gives you more flexibility in terms of what you can use it on. But there’s tax consequences, that’s the string. And I feel comfortable Tim, and we can talk about that a little bit more that there are enough outs for me from a 529, you’ll feel comfortable, you know, put in a good amount of money and into that to you know, to have for education, expenses. And if Olivia doesn’t need it, maybe my next kid or even grandkids.

Tim Ulbrich 21:10

Let’s talk about that flexibility for a moment. Because I do think that that is the probably the number one objection. Right. And and, you know, you mentioned the tax differences for those who choose to stay in a savings, you know, UGMA, UTMA or another type of custodian brokerage account. So the way I think about the 529 is this is like a Roth for college, right? It’s after tax dollars going in, it has the potential to grow or lose, right? Anytime we talk about investments and we can lose, but growth, hopefully long term tax free, then we could pull it out use it for qualified educational expenses, which there’s been an expansion of over the last decade or so. And that’s what I want to talk about flexibility because I agree with you. I think there are several things that maybe in the sense of of 529s were more restrictive that they’ve expanded upon. So right you think about what is considered to be a qualified educational expense, that would be one area that comes to mind. The expansion several years ago to allow these to be used for K through 12 private education, that’s a second one I think about. And then more recently, would be the Roth conversion opportunities, which is the third one. So it feels like all signs are pointing in the direction of more flexibility, not less when it comes to the 529s.

Tim Baker 22:22

I think I think eventually, one of the things that got kicked out, was at the very at the very last minute with the Secure Act 2.0 was like homeschooling like that’s not that’s not you can’t use funds for homeschooling. I do think that, you know, again, like when I started advising people on 529s is back in the day, like you couldn’t use a 529 dollars to buy like a laptop for college. Like that was a restrictive thing. And they’ve they’ve improved upon that. Right now, like before, you couldn’t pay if you had, if you had money in your 529, you couldn’t take that money out and pay off a student loan without a penalty. Yeah, they they changed that now, it’s still restrictive. Like, it’s, I think it’s a $10,000 maximum limit, which is silly, in my opinion, just just use that that’s what it’s for, is that kind of, you know, minimize education expenses, like pay off the loan. Yeah, to your point, the Roth was a big thing that they put in and, and there’s, there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of hoops you got to jump through it has to it has to be open for at least 15 years or longer before you can move those dollars from a 529 into a Roth, right? The last five years worth of contributions are ineligible, right. So like, if you’re, if you put that if you put dollars in at 18, you have to wait until you know they’re past 23 to move those dollars over and the maximum lifetime transfer to a beneficiary is capped at 35,000. Which again, I also think is silly.

Tim Ulbrich 23:49

Might change. We’ll see.

Tim Baker 23:50

Yeah. And I think they will, I think I think there’ll be again as as I think it’ll adapt it more as like, if higher education looks a lot different. I think they’ll adapt that. They’ve shown that they will be able to and again at the end at the end of the day for me, Tim, and again, not everyone’s going to think this. But like if my kids don’t need it. Like I’m going to cascade that down to Liam to Zoey and if Zoey doesn’t need it. I’ll probably just let it ride for a grandkid. Or, or grandkids. So to me like I don’t, I’m okay I’m okay with that. Like I don’t need I don’t need to go to like, you know, every kid equally or or even my kids can kind of go down a generation. Not everyone’s okay with that. I had a I had a couple last week, Tim, that we talked about education hadn’t started anything and right off the rip they’re like I don’t want to do a 529 and I said like keep your keep your mind open. And part of it is like the tax, part of it is like are you okay with you know, everyone’s everyone’s like, I don’t know if you know, my kids are going to college, you might be different. We’re just all that’s all like fair, right? So it’s yes, we’re you know, a lot of us are open needs, when they’re one they’re toddler, who knows what they’re gonna grow up to be? But for me, you know, I think and again, I’m not looking at 100% solution. So I don’t necessarily need hundreds of 1000s of dollars, like, you know, if I was doing 100% solution. So this is kind of I look at this as kind of a coupon, you know, for future spending from the from the aspect of college tuition.

Tim Ulbrich 25:23

Yeah, and I think too, the other scenario to consider is, you know, when you talk about keeping options open, it’s like, what is the worst case scenario? It’s a 10% penalty, right, when we look at non qualified withdrawals. And the other thing I would add to the discussion, which by the way, nobody wants to pay a 10% penalty. So let’s be clear. But I would add to the discussion that there has also been an expansion beyond the what we think of the traditional four year degree, right. Trade school, certificate programs, apprenticeships like so I think we’re, that’s another example, we talked about flexibility. And I think, you know, for a lot of people, it feels like in the circles of discussions we have with other families of age around our boys about higher education, it seems like the trades is coming up more and more, as there’s some clear demand and in certain areas. So again, keep the options open. And as you begin to think about what what this looks like for you and your family, certainly there are options out there. And if you do look at the five to nine, we’ve got a great resource on our on our blog, seven things to consider before starting a 529 plan. Or if you already have one open, it’s a good refresher. We’ll link to that blog on the show notes as well. Tim, let’s shift to part three, as I mentioned in the beginning of the show, I’m excited about this. We haven’t really talked about this at length beyond the educational part of where does kids college savings fit and the priority of investing? What are the options available? And part three here is all about how much is enough? Now, just like we talked about when it comes to saving for retirement, same question we got to answer here and shout out to you in the planning team, you’ve built a really cool resource and calculator that we use with our clients that we’ll talk through at a high level here to really answer this question of as I’m saving for my four boys. I’m not flying in the dark, hopefully, because we can put some assumptions in place and determine how much is enough based on those goals? And ultimately, am I on track? Am I not on track? And what should we be doing each and every month to get on track? If that’s the case of where we’re heading? So it feels like Tim, the first step in being able to answer this question of how much enough is to figure out what the goal is? What the goal is back back to the poll question. Right, we started the episode with is, what’s the plan? Is it cover all expenses? Is it a partial fund? Is it a no fund, which I guess we could end the episode right there if that’s the case. But if it’s a partial or full fund, at what level? And we’ll talk about the third, a third, a third rule here in a moment at what level the funding is to be desired, is an important assumption we have to make in these calculations, correct?

Tim Baker 27:52

I mean, and again, I think a lot of people, it probably is, I’m trying to think, you know, of all the hundreds, if not 1000s, of meetings I’ve had with with clients and prospective clients over a lot of people are like, I don’t know, I want to save something. What is that? And there’s, there’s, there’s a little bit lack of like structure there. It’s rare, where people are, again, it’s going to be on the tails there where it’s like, I’m not worried about at all or like I want to do 100%. So I think in the absence of that structure, it’s just a conversation of like, okay, like, like, here’s a framework. And that’s what we talked about the 1/3 rule, here’s a framework does that sound like? Because the beauty of the 1/3 rule, or at least the way you think about it, is you’re talking about what can I do today, but then you’re also pushing it off to tomorrow, because part of like, your funding is going to come in like future earnings. But then also there is that skin in the game, which I love. I think having skin in the game with this decision to go to college is huge, or even like, you know, giving money to your kids for college is huge, because we’ve seen how wasteful is probably not the correct term, but like how wasteful it can be. When you’re looking at schools out of state, private, when you’re, you know, maybe jumping around in majors, I think having some type of you know, some type of realization that like, Hey, you’re going to be on the hook for some of this. And obviously, pharmacists know this very well, is needed. At least that’s the way that I look at it. So I think in the absence of any type of structure, I think introducing that 1/3 rule is important.

Tim Ulbrich 29:32

Let’s talk about that rule because I think that if we use that as the baseline, you can adjust whatever you want, right? We’ll talk about the three buckets and we’re gonna assume a third, a third a third, but you know, it could be 40% 20% 40% Right. So once you understand the concept, I think from there you could determine Hey, do I like that? Do I not like that and what adjustments you want to make. So walk us through what that third rule is.

Tim Baker 29:55

So off the rip, a lot of clients we like they look at the look like what their education costs. And they’re like, no, like, like, this is impossible. If I have a couple dollars, you know, that can, you know, rub together, that would be great. But when you kind of break it down, it’s, it’s not as bad as it as it looks. So like the 1/3 rule basically looks at, okay, when your child goes off to college, the sources of that a paying for college is going to really come from three places. A third of that a third of the of that is going to be come from, like, we say, past income or past savings. So today, in 2024, I’m saving out of my paycheck into my kids 529, and it’s going to grow. So that’s the 529. It could be a Coverdale it could be a Roth, you know, whatever it looks like but it’s, it’s you’re doing something today to spend in the future, just like we talked about with retirement savings. The other bucket the another third comes from what I would say current income. And again, this is this would actually be future income, but like when Olivia is 18, and she’s looking at colleges in, you know, eight years, I’m hopefully still working that YFP, I’m making money, and I’m part of the part of that tuition bill is going to come from the cheque that I’m receiving in eight years. And then the last bucket. And the last third would would be that skin in the game, it would be that outside outside funding, where this is going to be grants, scholarships. And last but not least, loans. So this is where you know, and again, we we talked about it with our kids that they’re going to have some money, but we don’t let them know what that is. My parents were like, you’re on your own. And then they helped us like later it was kind of like a surprise. So we kind of talked about it, but they don’t necessarily know what they’re getting. But that’s those are the three buckets. It’s what you’re you’re saving and investing for future college expenses. And then when your kid is in college, using your your part of your paycheck to pay for tuition. And then the last third coming from grants, scholarships, and student loans.

Tim Ulbrich 31:57

Tim, we’ve had several, I think, at least a couple I can think of episodes we featured where pharmacists have really worked, you know, throughout school, sometimes really aggressively to help pay down. Now, you know, if you’re working at $15-$20 bucks an hour, you can only make such a dent and a couple $100,000 of debt. But that has been a significant contributor to minimizing the debt that they’re having to borrow in any given semester. So in that case, when you think about a child working, would you put that in the final bucket? Or where how do you how do you think of that portion?

Tim Baker 32:33

I would put it in the in the final bucket. Again, I think it’s kind of like their skin in the game. It’s like, Hey, you could you could not be a great student and not get anything or you know, I know a lot of people, there’s money to be out there for you know, we just gave out our first scholarship, you know, obviously on the back end for YFP Gives. But there’s a lot of people that don’t take that, you know, go through that legwork. You know, Olivia’s goal, she wants to swim collegiately that’s her big thing right now. And she just missed her JO time yesterday by a couple of seconds. So she’s, she’s, she’s doing well. And again, I think for her, I think my wife would love it if she got a scholarship for that. But I’m like, you know, if happens, great. If it doesn’t, but to me, it’s a little bit of their, their participation in this whole process, because it is a lot of money. You know, when we look at the numbers we’ve go through, if we kind of go through this calculator, the numbers are staggering, right. And like I just said, like, when I was looking at it, you know, as we were jumping on here, the the four year instate for Olivia went up, you know, when I looked at it last month, and I guess they’re just refreshing their their numbers and then in the tool that I’m using, but you know it, these things go up. So I think having a plan in place is is is the way.

Tim Ulbrich 33:44

So with the third plan of the third rules, a framework of where we get started, obviously everyone can adjust that accordingly. Talk us through then the calculation and how we ultimately get to this point of Hey, are we on track? Are we not on track? Or what do we need to be doing each month to get on track?

Tim Baker 34:04

So I’m using a combination of our financial planning tool called Right Capital and kind of a calculator I built. And part of it was because I wanted to kind of adapt it to the 1/3 role. So I rely on the calculator really for or the financial plans will really for the likely in the inputs I just, I just looked at so in the tool, you can say hey, I want to send my kid to a two year commuter, a four year in state, a four year out of state, four yearr private school, you can actually put in the school that you want or you can I think it’s hard unless you’re right right up against it. So we we put in a four year in state so like, hey, Ohio State’s right down the street, that would be great. So essentially like when I’m looking at Olivia so Olivia was born on Halloween of 2014. Today’s the 15th of July 2024. So her current age is 9.7 so she’s almost a 10 year old, I think she would say she’s, she is a 10 year old. So we’re saying that at 18, she’s gonna go to college. So what that leaves is essentially 8.3 years before she’s got to move out and get out, and I can turn her bedroom into a man cave. Which she doesn’t like that joke.

Tim Ulbrich 35:18

Second whiskey storage unit.

Tim Baker 35:20

Exactly, exactly. So 8.3 years is our accumulation. That’s what’s left of our accumulation. So we make some assumptions about asset allocation. So in my calculator, I put in like an 80%, equities, 20% in bonds right now, she’s all equities, we have a lot of time. But as we get closer, we’re going to be, you know, to avoid sequence risk we’re going to be more conservative when we get to that five ish years. So maybe when she’s 13, 14 15, that’s when we’ll start to really kind of get more conservative until we until we have to spend it. So I’m using kind of a blended, you know, she’s not, she’s not 100% equities the entire time. So I put 80/20, you know, we use, so that real rate of return is about 4.6%. So that’s kind of some of the, you know, if I change that to 90/10, or 70/30, it would change the calculus. So the input that I was changing, you know, that I was mentioning, when I looked at this last month, a four year in-state for her would be $183,653.

Tim Ulbrich 36:26

With room and board?

Tim Baker 36:27

Yes. So that’s the need. So in what that means is in, I think right to the end, like today, it’s something like $28,000. But when they extrapolate that out 8.3 years in the future, that’s what’s going to cost that $28,000 With the inflation times four years. So that’s where we get the $183,000. So just as an example, my son, who is five years younger than Olivia, so Liam is five will be five next month already. His four year instate will be $234,393. So it goes from $183,600, to $234,400. Four, and then I don’t have Zoe’s calculated, but her four year end state is $284,900. So $100,000 difference between my oldest and my youngest, there’s essentially a 10 year gap for that between them. But that’s, that’s significant. And that’s why like, we’re hoping some of this changes. But that’s the number that I’m using, you know, to kind of say, Okay, this is what I this is what we need. So, if I were to fully fund it, if I needed to fully fund it, I would essentially need $183,000 in eight, eight years. Or you could say 12, and I’m still, you know, saving during that, but typically, that’s not how it works. So currently, currently, today, Olivia has, I guess it’s called a share. That’s right. So currently, Olivia has $28,629. So and we’re we we put in not quite the $4000, we put in $300 a month or $3,600 per year. So we’re on pace to save $103,000. So if you look at that, I need 183 we’re on pace to save $103k. So that our our percentage now was we’re on track to say 56% of her college. Now, that’s not 100%, which is not our goal, but it’s also a lot higher than the 33%. So like we there’s some delta there. So you know, so I kind of break down if we did want to pay 100% percent, you know, what we would need if we, for us to be on pace to save for 100%. To get to that $183k, I would need $67,634 today. I don’t have that I have $28,000. If I if I lost all the monies in her 529 today, I would essentially need to be saving or investing $1,260 for the next 8.3 years to get to that to get to that 183,000. So because I have that, it’s actually I need to increase my essentially increase my savings from $300 a month to $854 per month to get to that. Now obviously, that’s not something that we want to do. So and then I had the same thing broken down for the 1/3 rule. So 33% of 183,000 is $61,212. So again, when you break it down like that, I’m like that’s actually not that bad. $61,000, like that’s doable. Now, the conversation I had just had with Shay when I ran this was she’s like, well, we should should we start saving less and I’m like, essentially, like the argument could be you could save less or we could we could kind of stick to the status quo. My thought is is like that’s one less bill that I have to worry about in 8.3 years like it’s almost. so there’s a tricky one is correct. So like, I part of me is like, do I just get it too, and maybe we’ll talk about this in the next iteration. So like, do I go to 67%, you know, to get to my to like my two thirds of post and present income for that. And then she has a 1/3. So just to break down the math for 33%, I need $61,212. What you currently need today to be on pace would be I would need $8400 and I have $28,000. So we’re beating that. And then if I had $0, like, if I lost all that money, I would essentially need to be saving so $420. So if you have a 10 year old, and you want to send them to a four year in state and you haven’t saved anything, and you want to save at least a third, you would essentially need to be saving $428 per month, between now and when they go.

And then the last column is kind of the choose your own rule. So if I were to if I were to say, hey, Shay, like, let’s, let’s, you know, we have some room in our budget, you know, retirement looks good, etc. If I were to say, hey, let’s let’s go to that 67, that kind of checks off both for us, I would need $123,000. I would need today $38,000. We don’t have $38,000, we have $28,000. So that lump sum to get us on track would be putting $9700 and I’m on track. And then we would essentially be needing to pay or invest $438 so I’d need to increase my monthly contribution by about $138. And then I go through the same thing with Liam. So Liam, just in broad strokes not to go through every every every calculation. He has, so his, what we need for him and for four year in state 13 years from now, since he’s five is $234,400 essentially. He has currently $13,800. We’re currently putting in $225. So not as per month, so not as much as Olivia. And then we’re on pace to save one, it will we’ll call it $109,000. So we’re 46% of the way there. We’re on track to be at $46, which is still beating our 33% roll. So we’re I look at this and we were in good shape. I think with Zoe, it’s too early to tell she only has a couple 100 bucks in hers. But that’s kind of the calculus that we’re doing from hey, are we on track or not from a from an education perspective. And again, like if the market if the market loses 30% today, Tim like right now it’s been on a bull market. But if loses 30%, and all of a sudden he doesn’t have $13,800, he has $10k, that changes thing. Right now, over the long period of time, we’re still assuming, you know, a nominal rate of return of 8.8%, which is an 80/20 portfolio, and then we adjusted down for inflation. So that’s kind of the math. I know, it’s kind of hard to follow over the podcast. But hopefully that made sense as I was going through the, the numbers line by line.

Tim Ulbrich 42:56

Yeah, what I love about it is it makes kids college savings much more practical.

Tim Baker 43:01

And patatable, right? Like you hear those headlines. It’s just like your retirement. It’s like, you know, when I say to clients, it’s like, hey, you need $2 million to retire, you are looking at me like I have 2 million heads, but it’s a big number, way in the future. It’s the same thing holds true with education. It’s just, it feels more than what it actually is.

Tim Ulbrich 43:20

Yeah, makes it digestible with a third rule or some variation of that. I mean, it really it’s a compressed nest egg calculation. And that’s what I love about it is we’re not flying in the dark. What what do we have saved right now? What’s the goal? We’re gonna put some assumptions in place just like we do with retirement planning. And then what do we need per month to achieve that goal. And that last part, is the piece that is so often missing when we talk about long term savings and investing, right? Whether it’s 10 years or 30 years, some of these numbers, as you mentioned, too, feel big, they feel overwhelming, they feel scary. And what we can relate to and put our arms around is what do we need to be doing per month? Or what is the goal? And then we can look at the rest of the plan, the budget all those things and figure out, can we make this happen? Or can we not make it happen? And then what does that mean, in terms of what they have saved? What does that mean for other financial goals? So yeah, I think if we think about it, in that sense, we really can start to implement this and put a game plan in place and make some adjustments if need be. And context matters, right. So I would think, how you think about this for Olivia versus your youngest, Zoe is very different, right? When you get to the potential for over saving with Olivia well, that’s different with your first and your third because option to transfer, so I think a lot of details to be considered as we look at the individual components of how you approach the 529.

Tim Baker 44:39

I’ve really enjoyed you know, I’ve been trying to get Olivia kind of more interested in like money and the value of money and, you know, she told me the other day she’s like, you know, when I go back to school, can I buy these like $100 like Nike shoes and I’m like, No, you can’t like it’s like, we’ll spend some money and then you can save some with your money, and there’ll be a cap on what you can do. And even my wife said, like, oh, like she gets money, you know, should we put that in a 529? I’m like, I actually, like when we, when she does her allowance, I say like, Hey, any money that you want to put into your UTMA account, like, I’ll match it. So, and I did the same thing like she, she’s going to, she’s going to donate to YFP Gives. And I’ll match that, right? So I want to I want to incentivize that behavior. But I kind of want the 529 to be like, funded by me and mom, right. So like, I don’t want her spend money to go to the 529. So I’d rather have that money go into an UTMA that she can use it, she could use it for school, which she could use it for a car, a business, a gap year or whatever. But I’ve enjoyed kind of like having some of those conversations with her and kind of seeing some of the lights go on. In terms of like, investments and that’s the thing, like I’ve always struggled with like, should I kind of key them into like what we’re doing on the 529 or should be more of like, a mystery because I really don’t want her to like say like, oh, like mom and dad have it paid for like I don’t, you know, I don’t need to work. My mom took the opposite route. She’s like you have to work because we’re not going to help you at all. But I think I think these types of discussions with your kid, even when they’re young, like mine are is, is positive. And again, like, I grew up, we didn’t really talk about too much about money, like outside of like you’re on your own. But I think building some of those behaviors and kind of mindset around money is important because a lot of people that come through the door to work with us. They’re kind of an image of their parents, right. A lot of them is like, you know, if they had consumer debt issues, it’s probably because their parents did. If they were oversavers, its probably because their parents were. You know, some people look at the parents and say, I don’t want to be like that. And they’re trying to fix it, but like the natural inclination is to spend or save. So I think it’s a good opportunity to at least start the conversation around money with kids.

Tim Ulbrich 46:58

Great stuff, Tim. And that’s a topic we’re gonna talk more about on the show. One because we haven’t talked about it enough. And two, we’re living it firsthand with our own kids. We’re excited to share that journey as well. Let me wrap up by saying for those that are listening, yes, talking about kids college, but also other parts of the financial plan, saving investing for the future, retirement planning, tax planning, debt pay down and so forth. We’ve got a team of certified financial planners, and Sean Richards, our CPA and tax professional that can help you in working one on one as it relates to your own financial plan. If you’re interested in learning more about the services, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com. From there, you can book a discovery call with Tim to learn more about the services and determine whether or not they’re the right fit. Thanks so much for listening. If you’d like what you’ve heard on this episode, other episodes of the podcast please do us a favor and leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to the show. Have a great rest of your week.

Tim Ulbrich 47:51

Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Finanicial Pharmacsit Podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists in the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% downpayment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers and has no PMI on a 30 year fixed rate mortgage. To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to get started with the pre approval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

Tim Ulbrich 48:37

[DISCLAIMER] As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcasts. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialservices.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 367: Healing Together: Transforming Your Trauma to Triumph with Dr. Helen Sairany

Posted on by YFP Media

Dr. Helen Sairany discusses the prevalence of burnout and trauma among pharmacists and the importance of addressing the root cause of trauma to lead to a path of healing.

Episode Summary

Discussing the intersections of trauma, resilience, and identity, Helen Sairany, a pharmacist and author, explores the impact of childhood trauma on workplace functioning. Dr. Sairany discusses the prevalence of burnout and trauma among pharmacists and the need to address the root causes to ensure the well-being of the profession.

In this beautiful and powerful conversation, Dr. Sairany emphasizes the importance of recognizing the depth of human experience beyond labels and embracing coexistence, tracing back beliefs to their origins to overcome financial conflicts, and addressing the root causes of trauma to build healthier relationships.

About Today’s Guest

As a 7-year-old Kurdish child in Iraq, a country torn by war and conflict, Helen was spotted by a U.S. Marine deployed to her country with a grenade in her hand, who saved her life by exchanging the grenade for a bag of candy. He later escorted her family and her out of war to seek refuge in the U.S.

Because of her turbulent childhood, she was diagnosed with complex PTSD in 2013. Thus, she aspire to live in a world where the vast majority are trauma-informed, feel psychologically safe and valued for the work they put out, and return home fulfilled.

Since the outbreak of the COVID-19 pandemic began, Helen have been open about her dormant childhood trauma. She have been traveling worldwide to give talks on topics such as trauma-informed care, leadership, and the workforce.

After having traveled to more than 100 countries worldwide, she developed an appreciation for the diverse mix of cultures, people, and traditions.

Her interest in trauma stems from personal experiences of living through wars, navigating complex relationships, and continually learning what it means to be human.

Key Points from the Episode

Healing trauma and its intersection with finances with pharmacist and author Dr. Helen Sairany. [0:00]
Trauma, immigration, and healing with a focus on personal experiences and emotional reactions. [2:38]
Pharmacist burnout and trauma due to workplace stress and lack of fulfillment. [8:21]
Pharmacist burnout, trauma, and advocacy for trauma-informed care. [14:18]
Trauma, inner child, and resilience with personal experiences and examples. [17:35]
Identity, belonging, and career development for a pharmacist. [21:17]
Labels, identity, and human experience. [26:03]
Pharmacist boundaries, reimbursement, and provider status, with mentions of trauma and psychology of money. [30:38]
Healing from childhood trauma and its impact on financial decisions. [34:33]
Inner work, meditation, and trauma healing in the workplace. [40:57]

Episode Highlights

“I like to define trauma as an event that is too much, that is too fast, and that is too soon for your brain to comprehend. It gets stored in the body. And that’s why when you come across a trigger that is reminiscent of your past, it’s usually the gut that tells you something is not okay, because the gut is connected to the brainstem” – Dr. Helen Sairany [6:38]

“I’ve just been giving the same talk about what pharmacists in institutions are going through is equivalent to combat trauma. So if that is the case, if we are coming out of our workplace with combat-like trauma, does that mean our workplace is a combat zone?” – Dr. Helen Sairany [11:43]

“Every seven years, it’s a new you. Every seven years, every cell of your body goes through a complete rebirth.” – Dr. Helen Sairany [25:17]

“Labels separate us. And labels confuse us. And labels get us in trouble. Because the second you mess up and label, what do people do? They associate it with XYZ and they cancel you. So it is a concerning era in this country because of this whole concept of labels. And that’s probably why I have issues with labels. Because after all, why do I travel all around the world? Because I feel like we all have so much in common, and labels just never help with coexistence.” – Dr. Helen Sairany [30:09]

“The biggest boundary is that [pharmacist’s] have allowed our service to go by unrecognized. And this is not about provider status. You know, you ask a nurse, you ask a physician, they will tell you pharmacists are a provider. This is about a change in the regulatory language. This is about payment parity.” – Dr. Helen Sairany [31:57]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Website – https://helensairany.com/
Certificate Training Program – https://helensairany.com/certificate-training/
Trading Grenades for Candy by Dr. Helen Sairany
The We You Don’t See by Dr. Helen Sairany
The Myth of Normal by Gabor Mate
Register for July 24th 12-1pm YFP/APhA Webinar: Retirement Income Planning: How Much is Enough and How to Pay Yourself In Retirement (With Live Nest Egg Calculation)
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Tim Ulbrich on LinkedIn
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YFP Facebook Group

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I welcome pharmacist and two-time author Dr. Helen Sairany, to talk about how we can all heal together by transforming our trauma to triumph. During the interview we discussed how her personal experience with complex PTSD and trauma has influenced her advocacy work and trauma informed care how her travels to over 100 countries is influenced her understanding of human resilience. Her career transitions from working in Iraq as a new grad to association management to leading two state pharmacy associations and now running her own business, as well as the intersection of psychology and money and how our past traumas and belief systems play out in our spending behaviors.

Tim Ulbrich 00:47

Before we jump into today’s episode, I invite you to learn more and register for our next YFP webinar, Retirement Income Planning: How Much is Enough and How to Pay Yourself in Retirement. Saving for retirement and ensuring there’s enough to retire comfortably is a good starting point. But it’s important to then consider how a monthly paycheck will be generated during retirement to replace your pharmacist income. During this free YFP webinar, co-founder and Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker will walk through strategies to build a retirement paycheck, including doing a live nest egg calculation, discussing savings vehicle strategies for withdrawal tax integrations, and how to consider and evaluate Social Security benefits. Make sure to attend live for a chance to win an amazon gift card. If you can’t make it live. No problem, make sure to register and we’ll send you a copy of the replay afterwards. You can learn more and register at yourfinancia pharmacist.com/retirement. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/retirement. Alright, let’s jump into my interview with Dr. Helen Sairany.

Tim Ulbrich 01:48

Hello, and welcome to the show.

Dr. Helen Sairany 01:50

Thank you so much for having me, Tim. I’m looking forward to having a discussion with you today.

Tim Ulbrich 01:54

Me too. This has been awhile in the making. You and I have known each other for a while now at least a decade, I think. We crossed paths when you at the time you were working with American Pharmacists Association, we’ll talk more about your career journey as we get into the recording. And more recently, I feel like we’ve connected on our own healing journeys and some of the work that we’ve been doing individually. I have a ton of respect for the work that you have done, we’ll talk about the books that you’ve written on this important topic of trauma. And I think for our listeners, there’ll be a real treat and perhaps a different angle and topic than there used to as we dig into the finances normally, so thank you so much for taking time to join.

Dr. Helen Sairany 02:36

Thank you for having me.

Tim Ulbrich 02:37

I want to start with your first book, Trading Grenades for Candy, one that I enjoyed. I remember reading it on vacation, I was at the Fingerlakes with my family, I couldn’t put it down. True story. I already told Helen that; I’m not making it up for the show. And in that book, you share how as a seven year old Kurdish child in Iraq, you responded by a US Marine with a grenade in your hand who saved your life by exchanging the grenade for a bag of candy. And I want to start there if you could tell us more about this early experience and how growing up in a violent background, in a war torn country led to your own trauma, which would eventually become the basis for helping others along in their own journey.

Dr. Helen Sairany 03:17

Yeah, so. And truth to be told, I don’t have a recollection of that story. Because my trauma was so big, and that I don’t remember. So my parents actually when I wrote my memoir, my parents told me how excited I was to rush home with that bag of candy. And I narrated the story to them then when I was seven, but I just don’t remember that it happened. But the book, it’s the title is Trading Grenades for Candy, but it’s more of a metaphor, how I gave up my life in an austere environment for the American dream and I and I’m sure you’ve kind of picked on this as I was narrating my story, how I was trying as a you know, younger woman, single, you know, professional with all these degrees trying to go back to the Middle East after all these years of living in the States and how I was resented because I was one of the very few lucky ones who had the opportunity to leave the Middle East while everybody else was stuck in the war zone. So Trading Grenades for candy is trading my life for the American dream more. But it did start with that exchange between me and the marine. And yes, it did lead to my service and helping frontline heroes. Is it the Marines? Is it the pharmacists? Is it doctors? I feel like we all have a bit of trauma of some sort. But the book if you look at the acknowledgement the book is dedicated to the unknown marine that saved my life. And I’m hoping that through this book, I’ll be able to find him one of these days. But it is it is a true story. It revolves around my life around immigration settlement, displacement discrimination and how I was resented at the end after returning to my roots.

Tim Ulbrich 05:03

Since we’re going to talk a lot about trauma, if you could define that for us, you know, I recently read per your recommendation, Dr. Gabor Mate’s book The Myth of Normal, fantastic read, we’ll link to that in the show notes. I think half my reading list by the way, right now I have a stack of books in my office, I think those are recommendations from from you. So that one, he talks in that book about little T trauma, big T trauma. And just the way he taught that, and really, I think helped me normalize in my own healing journey, what that word even means, and perhaps the misconceptions I had around trauma is important. But since we’re gonna talk so much about that, let’s define that for a moment. How do you define trauma?

Dr. Helen Sairany 05:43

So I don’t like to, I don’t like the whole concept of big T, little t, because, and because the human, the depth of human experience cannot be limited to a letter, okay? Your little T might be a big T, for me, my big T might be a little T, while the society try to impose this whole concept of we’re all created equal. But let’s face it, some of us are more equal than others. And by that, I mean some of us are more resilient than others. And if you look at the study that was done by JAMA, looking at the veterans who get deployed to combat, those 20% of veterans who come back to get clinically diagnosed with PTSD are the ones with pre existing traumatic childhood experiences. So that is probably why I have a little bit of a concern with the big T and the little T category for trauma. So what I like to define trauma as as it’s an event that is too much, that is too fast, and that is too soon for your brain to comprehend. And that’s why trauma is never about the brain challenges, while the mental health community likes to focus on mental health being as a separate brain being a separate compartment than the body. Trauma, because it’s too much too fast, too soon, it gets stored in the body, it gets stored in the body. And that’s why when when you come across a trigger that is reminiscent of your past, it’s usually the gut, that tells you something is not okay, because the gut is connected to the brainstem. And brainstem, or the reptilian brain is responsible for your survival. So again, traumas it’s about something that happened inside of you because of what happened to you. But it’s also about a disease that being stored in your body as a response to an event that was too much, too fast, too soon.

Tim Ulbrich 07:31

One of the indicators I have found in my own journey is when I find myself having a disproportionate, not sure if this is a technical term, but a disproportionate emotional reaction to a situation where I can step back and look at it and say, Oh, wow, that was interesting. Like, this happened and I got really angry, right, or I became really sad, or I was really fearful or feelings of shame, or guilt, or whatever is the emotion. And when I see that, wow, that event doesn’t really correspond to the level of feeling that I was having. Just being aware of that I start to get curious about like, Oh, that’s interesting. What’s what’s going on there? Like, what is the trigger? You know, what’s the event? And I think for me, and I’d love for you to speak about this in your own journey with others. Just that openness to curiosity, without judgment feels to be a really important first step.

Dr. Helen Sairany 08:21

I wished him and I’m so glad you brought this up. I wish as a profession, as in the whole healthcare healthcare field as a whole would take that curiousity approach, because it is no coincidence that one out of every two American is reporting either anxiety or depression. It is no coincidence that 60% of Americans are reporting at least one chronic disease. So now you can you can blame genetics all you want. But that is a hard case for me to roll with because genetics cannot alter at such a fast pace. So the typical North American provider reaction is well, what are we going to do? Well as a health care provider if the same patient and that’s what led to the whole famous Adverse Childhood Experiences Study by Drs. Anda and Felitti. They kept seeing patient with morbid obesity, one patient after the other and the same different patient would report the same exact adversity from childhood and that is what led to the birth of adverse childhood experiences study that perhaps obesity is not about the food, but it’s more a reaction and reaction to early adversity from childhood. So that’s the curiousity that I you and I are talking about. Let’s take a step back and figure out the how did we get here? Because the profession is not okay. Healthcare is not okay. I mean, I don’t like to focus just on pharmacists. I was recently on a sabbatical and I ran across a half a dozen nurses from the US and some of them were saying that they wake up to the beats of the sound of the IV unit from the ICU, and that is an iconic symptom of PTSD. So that curiosity, I think it’s overdue. And I think because of the scary statistics, I don’t think we are in a situation where we can have a reactionary response anymore. I think we have no choice but to take a step back and figure out how did we get here? What is an issue in the system that is causing so much disease and so much dysfunction among all of us?

Tim Ulbrich 10:21

And I’m curious as you speak to groups all across the country groups of pharmacists, groups of other other health care professionals, but for our audience, as we think of pharmacists that are listening, I’m not sure they would associate, you know, the word trauma with their experience in the healthcare system or their role. What ype of responses are you getting from pharmacists, what types of thoughts or feelings or reactions are coming up? And where’s that stemming from?

Dr. Helen Sairany 10:48

So I wrote an article for Pharmacy Times 2021, three years ago and I talked about we were still like in Omicron era. And I talked about how, what what pharmacists are going through is equivalent to what a combat veteran would go through. Okay, so pharmacists are experienced combat like trauma, excuse me, and the article just went viral. I wasn’t expecting for anybody to kind of associate combat trauma to burnout. I just randomly wrote the articles, you know, me, I’m passionate about trauma. And the article went viral. And so many pharmacists wrote me and they said, This is what I was feeling this whole time. But I just didn’t know how to categorize it. Do you know what I mean? And they thanked me for it. And as you’re aware, I’ve gone to 26, 27 states and I gave one keynote, and my keynote went viral. And I just been giving the same talk about how what institutions, or what pharmacists in institutions are going through is equivalent to combat trauma. So if that is the case, if that is the case, if we are coming out of our workplace with combat-like trauma, does that mean our workplace is a combat zone? And that is a question that I addressed the audience because individuals who go to combat veterans who go to combat they come back with PTSD. But if we are ending up with combat like trauma from our workplace, that means our workplace is not healthy, if that makes sense.

Tim Ulbrich 12:19

Yeah. And when you talked about the example of nurses you interacted with when you were on sabbatical and that one example of, you know, hearing the the beat of the IV, like what are their similar examples and trends or similarities you’re hearing among pharmacists? And Is it in community practice? Is it in hospital practice? Is it across the board, but what what are some of those experiences that pharmacists are having as a result of this traumatic workforce is traumatic experience.

Dr. Helen Sairany 12:49

And I know you and I kind of talked about this, in our earlier conversations, it’s, I like, as much as I hate to, and I’m not trying to belittle workplaces. But I think the number one concern for pharmacists is the lack of fulfillment. The lack of fulfillment, I can only talk on my behalf. I went through pharmacy school, I got a doctoral degree. And for four years I’ve been I was told I’m a provider, I’m a provider. And I was taking all these amazing therapeutic courses, and I was so excited. And then as soon as I was out of pharmacy school, I got hit. And I was not a provider. And now we have a provider status bill, that I cannot get reimbursed for my services. And I cannot use 90% of the clinical therapeutics that I was, you know, I was taught. So now what do I deal with? And I’m not saying that I was misled, and I’m not going to say that I was lied to. But it is it is a shock. Going back to too much, too fast, too soon. Too much you are actually put. And that is what the examples I hear from pharmacists, they feel like after pharmacy school, they’re being put in a heavy traffic during rush hour. And they’re told to guide the traffic with no prior experience. Now, that is not traumatic. I don’t know what it is. It is too much. And they’re trying to kind of figure out and then the clock is ticking with the workload. So I would say this is the example that I’ve been hearing the lack of fulfillment and also the they’re not doing something that they were told they were.

Tim Ulbrich 14:17

I think that lack of fulfillment and the misaligned expectations. You know, I think for those that have been working for a period of time and have experienced any of that, there’s a there’s a mental exhaustion. We talked about burnout, we use different words for this. But over a long enough period of time, I think we can really underestimate the impact that it can have. And certainly, I think the human can be very resilient to short term stress, and that’s to be expected on some level regardless of workplace. But what I hear from pharmacists, is that misaligned expectations, yes, that lack of ability to do the work that they thought they were going to do to have the impact that they thought they were going to have obviously we talked about the financial will impact and, you know, feeling like they’re tied to that setting whether it’s a good fit or not because of their debt, because of other things. But you layer that on in the example, given of the feeling of like, you’re in the middle of rush hour traffic, and you’re expected to guide this traffic over a 12 hour shift, and another 12 hour shift and another 12 hour shift over many, many years. I mean, you can start to appreciate the level of impact that would be there. Helen, you have been open and sharing your own journey with complex PTSD that you were diagnosed with in 2013. And I’m curious to hear how that personal experience with trauma has influenced your advocacy and your work towards trauma informed care.

Dr. Helen Sairany 15:43

I’ve had PTSD all my life, but I just didn’t know that it was PTSD. Just like how pharmacists were telling me in that article, like they knew was trauma, then it was too much, too fast, too soon, but they didn’t know how to kind of point fingers at it. So it wasn’t until I was back from overseas and the unfortunate encounter, because I was treating little girls with PTSD when I was part of Doctors Without Borders. And that is when my inner child started going out of control. And I would wake up sweating with nightmares. And so that’s when I realized that something was not okay. So I was diagnosed, but unfortunately, the diagnosis and the way it’s been handled, and I’ve been very critical about it. It’s, it’s, it turns into a victim to a label, if that makes sense. And I was I carried a lot of stigma, I carried a lot of shame, a lot of shame back in 2013. And I didn’t go public about my, my symptoms until COVID-19. And COVID-19, as much as I hate what happened, it was more of a like awakening for me that I need to because I wasn’t able to travel, you know, I’m a world traveler. So my travel got canceled, and we were all stuck at home. So that is when I realized that I could do something good about this. So I wrote my first book, Trading Grenades for Candy. Trading Grenades for Candy is what led people to ask for more because I don’t deep dive into the mental health aspect of my traumatic past. So I would say it was my memoir that led me to do all this great work. And as I started deep diving into trauma, Tim, I realized that it’s very relevant for what the healthcare is going through. It’s too much, it’s too fast, too soon. And I And I’m, I’m quick, like I started relating to what physicians are going through, what pharmacists are going through, what nurses are going through. It’s it’s not limited to war.

Tim Ulbrich 17:35

And I think just that reframe, you know, the, the acceptance of that, and understanding the definition of trauma. And I know, we talked about whether little T and big T is appropriate, but I Speaking for myself, you know, often when I think back to my childhood, and and just the admiration, respect and love that I have for my parents and the experiences, you know, I kind of put a wall up to like, well, there was no trauma, I didn’t experience any of the big T. Right, the things that I think about I have the understanding by, but and so I think that that can sometimes cloud our understanding awareness of you know, if we can humble ourselves for a minute, even as I think about raising my own four boys, like they have experienced trauma, like in my household that has happened, not big T trauma, but there is, you know, traumatic experience that happened in any household that are going to have an impact on them as they think about long term.

Dr. Helen Sairany 18:25

Exactly.

Tim Ulbrich 18:26

You said inner child, I think that’s a term that I know has been important to me in my own journey, as I’ve worked with a men’s group and gone through some counseling as well. Can you define that for those that aren’t familiar with that term?

Dr. Helen Sairany 18:40

Inner child is basically it’s the child that that gets suspended inside of you. And, for example, my mother was emotionally distance. So I didn’t grow up with Barbies, and toys and like a typical American child, right. Not because they didn’t want me to because we were in a war zone, right? When you’re about to be bombed, you know, like survival is the number one priority, but that child has healthy narcissistic needs. So we’re not talking about the narcissism such as the narcissistic boss or the ex. We’re talking about a child feeling like needing the unconditional love being inconvenient, regardless of how sleepy or how tired you are, they want to play, they want that attention. That is the healthy narcissistic need. But if you are distracted, or if you’re burnt out, or if you’re stressed, you’re not going to be able to give that child what the child needs. So what happens the child is gonna have a tough decision to make, am I gonna force my authenticity, my need from my parents for the attachment or am I gonna split from my authentic need? Chances are because they put you on a pedestal because my parents are never wrong. They are going to start what’s called splitting. They’re going to suspend that inner child need, the healthy narcissistic need, but whatever is not met, it gets suspended, which means they take their unmet needs to their adult life and their unmet needs becomes the boss’s need, it becomes the partner’s need, it becomes whatever. So kudos to those who kind of know that term, who know where this inner child need comes from, but a lot of people, and let’s they let their inner child bleed all over them, and they’re not aware of it.

Tim Ulbrich 20:17

That’s a beautiful, succinct explanation. Thank you, I have a guy in my men’s group, Greg, who does a lot of this area of work and talks a lot about the inner child. And he does a beautiful job of naming little Greg, and the work that he has to do to spend time with little Greg and nurture little Greg and, you know, reinvigorate some of those experiences and things that were missing. And it’s just beautiful to watch, kind of that journey and understanding of the inner child, and the impact that I can have. You mentioned travel a couple times on the podcast, you’ve traveled over 100 countries, which is incredible. I feel like every time I see what you’re up to on LinkedIn, you’re in a new country, doing new and different things. How have these experiences, enriched your experience of human resilience, and even the work that you’re doing around trauma informed care?

Dr. Helen Sairany 21:10

You know, it’s, it’s, it shows how we humans have so much in common, my goodness, so much in common. And I grew up, and I know you’ve read my memoir, and I grew up struggling with belonging. I was always a refugee girl in the states who spoke with an accent with thick brows, curly hair, she’s different, right? And then, and I knew I knew it was different. I knew I didn’t belong in the States. I knew I was a foreigner. But the reality hits was when I decided to go back and serve with Doctors Without Borders. And when I got the resentment from my own people, they’re like, well, you’re the American wannabe. So I felt like I was the foreigner in the States. And now I was the American wannabe in my own mother country. So it became very difficult. And I was going through an identity crisis in my late 20s. And only then, my therapist was like, well says, Who that you have to decide between either or you’re just a world citizen, right? So I will say, my lack of belonging, whenever I feel that pain, that I don’t belong anywhere, I feel like I belong everywhere. And I’m not trying to be my angel here. But it really is true. Because this lack of fulfillment, it just made me want to belong everywhere. And I just love every time I am stressed, or I’m depressed, or I’m having difficulties, I, I just go implant somewhere and I come back completely refreshed.

Tim Ulbrich 22:30

You know, when I think of your career journey, Helen, it’s an interesting non traditional out of my mature, that’s the best term. You’ve talked about your experience shortly after graduating Doctors Without Borders. You spent several years with American Pharmacists Association, doing some incredible work there where our paths crossed. You then would go on to lead a couple of state pharmacy associations. Now you’re doing the work that we’re talking to me here on this episode, and, and you know, dabbling into the world of entrepreneurship, and all the exciting things that are there. One of the things I see pharmacists really struggle with is the attachment to their identity as their role of being a pharmacist. And when different opportunities might open up that are, quote, non traditional. I remember feeling this when I came out of residency, and I quickly exited practice and was exploring different things that I could do, I had this little voice in the back of my head that was like, Well, Tim, didn’t you train for eight years, and take on all this debt and go through residency, like you’re a clinic, you should be a clinician, and I remember thinking like, I don’t really like clinical practice, like, it’s just not for me, and it took some time to really accept that, and really see where I can have an impact and aligned with my skills in other areas. And so my question for you is, you think about your journey, your identity, as a pharmacist, your role as a pharmacist? How have you worked through that? Has that been a challenge as you’ve gone through this own journey, and you’re now doing work, obviously, in trauma and helping other healthcare professionals?

Dr. Helen Sairany 24:02

So I knew I knew when I was a student intern, that I was more than what was allowed of me. And the disappointment started early on. And that I believe, that’s probably why I packed my stuff and I joined Doctors Without Borders. So the whole, you know, we talked about the whole concept. Well, I felt like maybe I was misled. Or maybe I was not being told, I think that I’ve really quickly enough not been in growing up in a traumatic environment, I tend to be a bit quicker than an average person. Because of the risk I was surrounded by, I had no choice but to be quick in connecting dots. So I would say I am I’m a bit faster than an average individual because of my unfortunate circumstances. So I was quick in picking up that if I take this path, I know Helen is not going to thrive. So so that’s probably why I decided to take you know, this non-traditional pathway. But I would never, ever associate my identity with my profession. And I know that’s not your typical response you hear. But I would like to emphasize one thing, Tim, and that is something I will say 99% of pharmacists don’t know. And it just came up yesterday, as I was talking to a mentor of mine. Every seven years, it’s a new you. Every seven years, every cell of your body goes through a completely rebirth. So that’s exactly what happened to me with APHA after seven years. That is when it hits because I felt like I was going up, up, up, and I was doing all these amazing things. And then I reached the status quo. And I talked to a lot of people, it’s usually the seventh year that hits them, because the body goes through a complete reform. So it’s not about feeling guilty. It’s not about abandoning the profession. This is how we’re built as a human, if that makes sense. Some people are more open to it, while other people because of the societal conditioning, the professional conditioning, they decide to just stay where they are just because this is something they feel like that they signed up for.

Tim Ulbrich 26:03

Yeah, that’s the piece I see a lot, Helen, what you just mentioned there, you know, the openness to it, or lack there of you know, I see this on the financial side, where there’s, you know, a very real sunk cost concept where I put x amount into our my, maybe my family helped, my parents help whoever into paying for this college degree. You know, I remember when I graduated 2008, the story was very strong saidand unsaid of like, you will be a doctor, you will practice at the top of your license, right, all the things that you shared early on. And I think there’s a real risk of the enmeshment that can happen between your individual identity, which is independent of your role as a pharmacist. But very quickly, I think when we when we take ourselves back to 18, 19, 20 year old Tim going through pharmacy school, like those things start to become enmeshed. But if we’re not careful, I think some of that may or may not separate back out and, and what I what I’ve run into is people that I can sense have the intuition, whether it’s seven years, eight years, 10 years, five years, whatever, but aren’t willing to pivot move or be open to what else may be out there within or outside of the profession for a variety of different reasons.

Dr. Helen Sairany 27:15

No I hear you, and that is the whole concept of the codependent society, which is something I’m sure you came across in my second book is enmeshment, right? Like I am, I will feel good if XYZ feels good about me. And it’s if you look at our academic system, and I know you’ve written about this as well, they turn our identity to a letter. And if the letter is F, I feel like a failure. If the letter is A I feel, but and I know the whole concept of Maria Montessori, she challenges the whole Western academic system, because it’s all about play. And this whole concept of ADHD which we can go on and on. And Dr. Gabor actually challenges is the child fighting ADHD or is the child fighting this dry, you know, classroom setting, because kids are meant to play. They’re meant to be be playful. And that’s what Dr. Maria Montessori focuses on. But you’re expecting the child to sit on their butt like this for eight hours, of course, they’re going to be diagnosed with ADHD. So it just it’s time for us to revisit some of these concepts and some of these associations, you know, but until then, people are going to continue associating themselves with these labels.

Tim Ulbrich 28:28

Yeah. And I think the labels, you know, as a parent of four young boys, right, that’s a concern that I have is, you know, how do those labels get imprinted early? Where did those stories come from? And, you know, my wife and I have been talking a lot recently, and one of our boys in particular, where we caught ourselves recently, yeah, recognizing that, hey, we’ve kind of told ourselves and each other a story about why he essentially did something. And he was trying out for a sport. And it was something we both looked at, we’re like, oh, we’re surprised, like he’s self initiated. And we’re glad we kind of gave him the space to do it. But we caught ourselves in the moment of like, wait a minute, like, why are we both saying we’re surprised by this, and then that led to a conversation of, hey, we’ve kind of both told ourselves the story of who he is and what he should be doing. While he’s very clearly trying to tell us, like, that’s not his story, you know, that’s not what he thinks. And so it’s just, it’s really interesting to watch and observe that and even to see my boys in their, their creative habitat environment is, you know, to be outside, to figure it out, to be creative, you know, to work through the messiness, and I think so much to be learned there, which we can’t necessarily measure and say that’s an A, B, or C.

Dr. Helen Sairany 29:36

To add to that, to add to that, and that’s probably why I’ve been a little critical, I can say this because I’m a member of minority okay, so this has nothing to do with Tim, for disclosure. I’ve been little critical of the DEI because it just, I’m gonna keep emphasizing, is it trauma is a diversity is it equity, is it inclusion, whatever it is, it’s about the depth of human experience. The second you associated with label big T, little T, micro-aggression, macro-aggression, like all these labels going around. That’s when you confuse me. You confuse me. And labels separate us. And labels confuse us. And labels get us in trouble. Because the second you mess up and label what do people do they associate it with XYZ and they cancel you. So it is a concerning era in this country because of this whole concept of labels. And that’s probably why I have issues with labels, you know? Because after all, why do I travel all around the world? Because I feel like we all have so much in common, and labels just never help, if that makes sense with coexistence.

Tim Ulbrich 30:37

Beautiful. That’s great. I want to talk for a moment about a topic we could do a whole separate episode on, which is boundaries and setting boundaries, something that I don’t think we as pharmacists are inherently comfortable with. I recognize I’m generalizing that when I say that I remember reading Dr. Henry clouds book on boundaries several years ago, it was just very eye opening of Whoa, like, I’m not very good at setting boundaries. And, you know, that could be boundaries with ourselves that could be boundaries your loved ones, boundaries with the co workers. But what are you seeing in terms of pharmacists lack thereof of boundaries? And why setting boundaries is so important?

Dr. Helen Sairany 31:15

I mean, I think so that’s something you could relate to Tim more than I do, it’s asking for reimbursement is the biggest, it’s the biggest boundary. Find me a provider, that’s going to do MTM for 40 minutes for free. I mean, that is that that has been our biggest, you know, I don’t want to call it an enemy, but it’s backlashing. It’s backlashing. And the expectation is, and I know you and I kind of talked about this expectation as well, if I don’t get reimbursed for my services, when a colleague of mine who has a specialty, a consulting service, that becomes an expectation that I shouldn’t pay, either. It’s more of like re-enacting or trauma, if that makes sense. So I would say the biggest boundary is basically we’ve allowed our service to go by and recognized. And this is not about provider status. You know, you ask a nurse, you ask a physician, they will tell you pharmacists are provider. This is about a change in the regulatory language. This is about payment parity. So I’d like to, you know, and I’ve challenged APHA, I’ve challenged Tom Milligan, myself, you know, provider status has put a lot of insecurity in all of us, because we all thought we were providers, and now there is a bill. So put insecurity in in us all, and there’s so no payment parodies, it’s the payment parody that we need. So going back to the whole boundary concept, I would say that’s the biggest in the profession, at least.

Tim Ulbrich 31:17

Yeah. And it goes back to unrecognized value goes back to that feeling like I was trained to do something more and have a bigger contribution, but I have limits. And I remember, you know, I graduate in 2008. And you know, when you think about what was supposed to be big news with 2006, Medicare Part D MTM? I remember the rollout of Medicaid, MTM inOhio 2009-2010. Huge, huge opportunity. I remember the early pushes for provider status. I know some that are listening are said Yeah, we talked about this back with pharmaceutical care, and I get it. But I feel like the closest we probably were and even then it felt like we’re dancing around. Like, are we tactically doing this the right way? And are we asking for too much? And, you know, do we need another pilot study to validate this? Yada yada yada? So it’s a really interesting take on on boundaries and even some trauma related to that within our own profession? And the cumulative head trash that has probably come from you know, you’re absolutely right. When we insert this language of, we need to achieve provider status, despite others already other health care professionals thinking of us in that way. It almost sets the expectation back on ourselves of oh, well, I’m not a provider yet. I need to advocate for that and fight for that. Yeah,

Dr. Helen Sairany 32:37

I mean, I have so many physician friends are like what are you talking about? You are a provider. Like try like Helen, you’re okay, you’re okay.

Tim Ulbrich 34:00

You’re like, but we don’t get paid! I want to shift gears and talk about the psychology of money, I think related to the conversation, certainly one of interest from our audience you shared with me a couple weeks ago, I think you’re taking a course and some training through some some business coaching classes that you’re doing, but I do relate to the psychology of money, how fascinating it is for how our past traumas and belief systems play out in our spending habits in our financial behaviors. Tell us more about what you’re learning there.

Dr. Helen Sairany 34:34

Time and time again I hear money is the number one stressor for couples, in-laws are the number one stressors for couples. Communication is the number one stressor for couples and the number three reasons for successful relationships. We’re all bad, right? It’s all symptoms. All that you hear is symptoms of childhood baggage. What baggage what belief system do you bring into the relationship? Okay, now for someone like me, I grew up grew up in an environment that was defined by scarcity, defined by scarcity and my, my family when I visit them, I’ve gotten out and about explored the world, I’ve kind of invested in myself. So I feel like I’ve kind of opened up a bit. But when I go back, I still see the scarcity, that money’s gonna run out that, you know, resources are gonna run out. And because that’s how we grew up, we grew up in an economic sanction. You know, we grew up in an economic sanction and what is not being addressed, just like the inner child, it, you bring it to your adult relationships, adult life. And it’s not the money that triggers conflict, it’s more that money is being as a symptom. It’s a symptom of a belief that you’ve inherited from them from the environment that your family exposed you to, they expose you to. So my thing my take is that, whatever it is, it’s time for you to reflect going back to the curiosity that you started the podcast with, what is making you feel that you don’t want to spend XYZ? And it’s always catching the triggers? Like what is the trigger coming from? Why are you feeling the way you’re feeling? And I feel like that has helped me because I journaled a lot and I write down and I tried to trace it back to the scarcity environment that I was exposed to. So money is a belief system. But the belief system, it’s rooted back to your childhood upbringing, I would say.

Tim Ulbrich 36:26

And this is a huge gap in the financial planning process. And a shout out to our team that I think really does a nice job of trying to dig a little bit deeper here, because any financial decision we’re we’re making, right, the X’s and O’s when it comes to investing, or debt management or whatever. All of those are important. But underneath it, there lies this story, a narrative of how we view money in our beliefs around some of the money. Psychologists call this the money scripts or the money classrooms that we grew up in. And you see this a lot with partners or spouses, where back to my earlier example of a disproportionate emotional reaction. Like, if you find yourself in that, and are able to get curious and reflect back of like, wow, my partner, my spouse just made a $10 purchase, $30, it doesn’t matter what the number was. And it really felt much, much bigger or evoked feelings of scarcity or anger, like what’s behind that. And the more curious you can get individually, and then collectively together, of course, for those that are in a relationship doing this together, you know, I think the more fruit you’re gonna see in the outcome of that, but it’s hard because if we’re if we’re not doing the work to really surface some of those things, we’re going to constantly butt up against those challenges. Often. I always say take yourself back to the kitchen table growing up like what what were those comments? Or lack thereof, potentially, as well.

Dr. Helen Sairany 37:47

And that is something that Dr. Gabor Mati talks about, like, yes, your partner spent $10 In my trigger you, but you carry the ammunition? Yes. Did the trigger warranted that ammunition that big bombs, right, and where is that coming from?

Tim Ulbrich 38:03

Yes.

Dr. Helen Sairany 38:03

Do you know what I mean? So it’s a fascinating concept he talks about in his book, but I will say everything is rooted to childhood believe in the scarcity that we all bring into any relationship. Is it work? Is it marriage? Is it whatever it is.

Tim Ulbrich 38:16

Yeah. For those that have kids under the house, there’s the double challenge of doing the work looking back to understand where your own beliefs come from. And then there’s their work realizing that you have a whole another generation, they’re developing money scripts, you know, based on, you know, whatever they’re experiencing as well. I want to talk about Helen for a minute, if you’re willing to share, what has your own healing journey looked like in terms of therapists that have been involved support groups, the inner work that you’re doing, the daily habits that you have employed that you have found to be most helpful?

Dr. Helen Sairany 38:49

So say, Helen is work in progress. Because there is no such thing as a healing for trauma. Trauma, PTSD was not added to DSM5 and I’m sure you know, this term T. PTSD was the very first promise to treating trauma and it wasn’t added to DSM5 until the 80s. So we still don’t know enough like, you know, my definition of trauma is going to disagree with Dr. Gabor Mate. Dr. Gabor Mate is going to disagree with Bessel Vander Kolk. Because we don’t know enough. We don’t know enough. Like we kind of understand how trauma works. We know there’s triggers involved. We know the inner child, we know the dysfunctionality. But I would say there is not a universal definition around the trauma. So going back to Helen, I would say I am definitely work in progress. There are days where I am good. And there are days where I am not so good. It all depends on the triggers that Helen comes across and what ammunition do I have, you know, that I carry within. There are days where the ammunition just gets out and people are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, your reaction was not warranted. And there are days where like Helen, just yes. So I would say I start off my day with no, it’s non negotiable. I started my day with meditation. Because the meditation, it doesn’t matter if you’re on a vacation, it doesn’t matter if you’re hanging out on a beach resort in Fiji, whatever your meditation, it carries on, it regulates your body’s alarm system, right. So I would highly recommend meditation for everybody first thing in the morning, because you are in an alpha state. Because if you do it middle of the day, it’s going to take 20 minutes for you to calm your brain because the waves kind of pick up right. But when you first wake up in the morning, the waves are like slowly picking up. And that is a golden opportunity for you to regulate that body’s alarm system. And as you’re aware, I’m a runner, so I run end of the day at sunsets, and I tried to read writing has been my go to. So I’m really glad I have a hobby that is been beneficial to people, but it’s equally healing for myself.

Tim Ulbrich 40:57

So I hear writing in there reading, exercising, meditation, and it sounds like you’ve got a daily rhythm.

Dr. Helen Sairany 41:03

And of course, I’m not telling advocating anybody to be vegetarian or plant based, but I’ve invested a lot in my diet. So fitness is a priority for me for sure.

Tim Ulbrich 41:16

Yeah, what I have found in in my own I’ve shared with you before, I think like the morning is sacred protected time. Partly, I think with the boys, you know, once eight o’clock hits, and the day is kind of off and running and by nature a morning person, but having the rhythms of walking and meditation and some breath work and some writing and reading really helps me set the definition for a day and I have struggled with meditation, I have found some breathwork to be more impactful. But but with both of those, I have found that even when I’m distracted in the moment, and I may not necessarily look at that 5, 10 or 15 minutes and say, Hey, I really feel like I got a lot of in that moment. It’s the trickle effect that happens throughout the day, where I find myself just getting more curious and asking questions or being aware of some of the emotional triggers or reactions that are coming up throughout the day, that I think that work really does help contribute to, you know, as the day the day goes on.

Dr. Helen Sairany 42:16

And just if I may one thing, Tim meditation can be very triggering for some people. Because it brings up a lot of thoughts, right? There are days where I’m just like, I’m just like a hot mess because of meditation. But again, that is called the grief work that you’ve never taken a chance. Our society celebrates instant gratification. Well, if this relationship did not work, the only way you can get over him is to find someone else, you know, but no, the only way to get over it is to do the grief work, you know. So meditation is it could be triggering for a pain work that you did not take a chance to grieve fit, if that makes sense. So I just want to kind of bring that up, because there are times where I’ve haven’t allowed myself to grieve a pain in my life and it surfaces during meditation because it’s you and yourself. And the most difficult relationship you could have is the one with yourself not with a significant other.

Tim Ulbrich 43:12

Which is I think really also speaks to the role of a therapist and making sure you’re you’re working with someone you know that’s qualified to help you work through that grief as well. Let’s wrap up by talking about your new certificate training program Healing Together, Transforming your Trauma to Triumph. We’ll link to that in the show notes. Tell us more about what this training program includes who it’s for and what you’re trying to accomplish through this.

Dr. Helen Sairany 43:38

So we kind of talked about what inner work is and how the and I like to call it the childhood baggage, which happens to be the title of my third book. That childhood baggage shows up in your relationship with money. We now know that. That childhood baggage shows up in your relationship with your significant other. And guess what? That childhood baggage bleeds all over you in the workplace. So the corporate likes to think about how well we’re back where we should function as if the human is going to shut off the emotion the second they walk into the office. I wish that was the case. I wish that was the case. But we’re all interconnected. We’re all interconnected. Just like our family. I’m sure you read the bones of family theory in my second book, how a family is interconnected like this, right?And for the family to proceed, everybody has to do their work. But the second one member comes out, the whole you know interconnected unit gets disrupted. Let’s say that is addicted to alcohol or gets in prison or they go through divorce whatever, there’s so many adversities in life. So if one member is not able to continue, the whole interconnected unit gets disrupted in which means someone else needs to pick up the role of the individual that got off of the system. Same exact concept with work system. Works system is no different than family system. But what does the corporate do the second an individual goes rogue. They treat that individual like a sacrificial lamb. Right? Cut the head off. And it’s only a matter of time for that problem to surface again and again and again. So we don’t like to think because thinking is hard. Excuse me, we like to judge. So this whole certificate training program, it’s about how the childhood baggage bleeds all over you. How many bosses are narcissist until you like we know what maybe I’m the common denominator here. How many jobs, how many x’s how many, I don’t know what. But this is not about work. This is not about bosses. This is about the inner work. Because people don’t quit jobs, people quit people. And we all bring our own traumas, we all bring our own baggage into the workplace that makes a workplace that is already bad, even worse. So it is about you know, looking at the workplace from a trauma lens and looking about how it is time for us to have a complete look at how people are functioning as if they’re in a dysfunctional family system.

Tim Ulbrich 46:12

It’s great work and we will link to it in the show notes. Your website, Helensairany.com. From there, you’ll find the certificate training program all what’s included in the modules as a part of that. Also, if you haven’t already read one of two as Helen mentioned, there’s a third on its way book but the first two books Trading Grenades for Candy and The We We Don’t See. Both are available on Amazon. You can also find more information on Helen’s website, which we’ll link to in the show notes. Helen, this has been fantastic. As always, I appreciate your input, your perspective, I have a lot of admiration from your work. You’ve certainly taught me a lot and I know that will be true of our community as well.

Dr. Helen Sairany 46:51

Thank you so much, Tim. Thank you for having me.

Tim Ulbrich 46:55

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 366: Your Medicare and Long-Term Care Questions Answered

Posted on by YFP Media

Tim Baker, YFP Director of Financial Planning, breaks down Medicare and long-term care insurance and what to consider when deciding on a policy.

Episode Summary

Tim Baker, YFP Director of Financial Planning, breaks down the importance of long-term care insurance in retirement planning, highlighting the need to carefully consider the cost of these policies and how they fit into one’s overall financial plan.

Tim also discusses Medicare parts A, B and D and the importance of understanding the enrollment period to avoid paying penalties.

About Today’s Guest

Key Points from the Episode

Medicare and long-term care insurance with questions from the community. [0:00]
Long-term care insurance costs and factors that affect premiums. [4:10]
Long-term care insurance policies, including elimination periods and riders. [10:23]
Long-term care insurance policies and their importance in retirement planning. [17:28]
Medicare penalties for late enrollment, including Part A, B, and D. [23:15]
Medicare changes and penalties, with tips for avoiding them. [29:40]

Episode Highlights

“Start assessing what kind of policies you want and what you want to do and what your plan for long term care in your 50s. The sweet spot to purchase a policy is in that 55 to 65 year old range. If you’re too early, you’re paying premiums for a long time and you may not reap the benefit for 20 or 30 years. If you’re too late, you’re paying much more in premiums or you could even be denied. So unlike most health insurance, you can be denied for pre-existing conditions. There’s really that zone, that sweet spot – the Goldilocks zone where you really need to kind of get this just right.” – Tim Baker [4:32]

“A lot of people think you need a 100% solution to put my kids through college or you need 100% solution for this. It’s not about that. It’s really about providing a baseline benefit for you that you can then pull the levers on other parts of your financial plan to form a fully comprehensive plan with regard to long term care.” – Tim Baker [9:58]

“I think the main misconception about long term care is that Medicare is going to cover this and it really doesn’t.” – Tim Baker [23:51]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. On this week’s episode, we take questions from the YFP community on Medicare and long term care insurance – two critical, yet often overlooked, and might I say boring, parts of the financial plan. We discussed when it makes sense to purchase Long Term Care Insurance, what policies typically cost penalties for late enrollment in Medicare and policy changes and trends for both long term care and Medicare that listeners should be aware of when planning for the future. Now as we crossed the midway point of the year, it’s a good time to check up on your financial progress for the year and dust off those goals that you set back at the turn of the new year, which perhaps feels like a distant memory at this point. Whether you’re focused on investing in the future, paying off debt, saving for kids college, or growing a business or side hustle, our team at YFP is ready to help. At YFP we support pharmacists at every stage of their careers to take control their finances, reach their financial goals, and build wealth through comprehensive fee-only financial planning and tax planning. Our team of certified financial planners and our CPA work with pharmacists all across the US and help our clients set their future selves up for success while living a rich life today. You can learn more and book a free discovery call by visiting yourfinancialpharmacist.com. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com.

Tim Ulbrich 01:29

Tim, welcome back to the show.

Tim Baker 01:34

Good to be here, Tim. Let’s do this thing.

Tim Ulbrich 01:36

All right. So at the time of this going live, we’re actually on our annual YFP mid year break, it’s a week that we take off every year as a team around the Fourth of July a week that we can pause, reflect, get some time with family and friends. So Tim, any any big plans for the family this year?

Tim Baker 01:52

No, it’s interesting, Tim, I am reading Michael Hyatt’s Free to Focus and he’s like, the way to kind of become focused is to is to do less. So I think it’s a good time to kind of stop and reflect on you know, the the first part of the year and then think about, you know, what’s ahead for the second half of the year, we have some friends coming in town that have young kids, so we’ll be spending the Fourth with them, but kind of just staying home and hanging out. How about you? Any big any big plans for the Ulbrich family?

Tim Ulbrich 02:22

Yeah, we’re hitting the road. We’re going to see Jess has family up in Bowling Green, to do some fireworks, Fourth of July stuff, see her grandma, and then we’re making a trip to Buffalo. My brother and his wife put in a new pool. So we’re gonna we’re gonna enjoy that with them for a couple days and make make the most of the week. Boys are super excited, great, great age for traveling. And it should be. It should be a fun week. So hey, when you when you figure out the Free to Focus, let me know how that works. I need to figure that out. So the genesis for today’s episode is, Tim, you led a webinar for us a couple weeks ago on Medicare and long term care insurance. And you know, this is a topic that I think we often think about, of course, we know it’s important, but it’s one of those topics, both of these topics where we’re like, ah, kind of boring, like, how much do I have to really think about this part of the plan. But as you shared, I mean, the engagement, the questions, the interest was, even exceeded our expectations, which is great. And so we decided, hey, let’s do an episode that focuses specifically on the community members questions around Medicare and long term care. Now, we have talked about both of these topics on the show before. We’ll link to these in the show notes. Episode 329 I brought on Certified Insurance Counselor Josh Workman to talk about Medicare selection and optimization. He had some great insights to share from his experience helping people with Medicare selection. And then episode 296, Tim, you and I talked about five key decisions for long term care insurance. So we’re not going to rehash the background of these topics, make sure to go back and listen to those but rather jump into questions that our community had on these two topics. So, Tim, let’s start with long term care. First question, which is probably I think, the most common question, which is, when do I need this policy? Right. So what is the ideal age range to purchase a long term care policy?

Tim Baker 04:15

And in the presentation that we did in early June, the I kind of talked about this as like the Goldilocks zone, right? So if you’re too early, it’s not great. If you’re too late, it’s not great. So the way that I have broken this out, Tim, is you start discussing this in your late 40s. Start assessing kind of policies and what you want and what you want to do and kind of what is your plan for long term care in your 50s and then really kind of get the sweet spot to purchase a policy is in that 55 to 65 year old range. If you’re too early, you’re paying premiums for a long time and you may not reap the benefit for 20 or 30 years. If you’re too late, you’re paying much more in premiums or you could even be denied. So unlike most health insurance, you can be denied for pre-existing conditions. So there’s really that, that zone, that sweet spot, so to speak, is the Goldilocks zone where you really need to kind of get this just right. And again, if you’re, you know, if you have chronic issues, maybe you do that earlier. But I think one of the questions we’ll talk about, what do these premiums look like, and I kind of have these different age bands, so we can kind of talk about that. But, you know, started discussing in your late in your late 40s, kind of start assessing, you know, your plan and 50s. And then and then have a policy that meets that plan, you know, in that 55 to 65 year range.

Tim Ulbrich 05:42

So, Tim, we’re officially in the decade, you said end of forties. So something we’ll be thinking about here in the not not too distant future, which is hard to believe. But let’s talk about costs, right? Because I think sometimes these policies certainly can have some sticker shock. Everyone’s situation, of course, is different. But what are we looking at in terms of average premiums of a standard long term care policy?

Tim Baker 06:06

Yeah, so before I get into that, like, I think one of the I think this was Lincoln Financial, you know, did it did a study that that showed, like, what couples are willing to spend on long term care insurance, I think, I think the number was like $2500 to $3,000 per year in premiums. So I had that in the back of my mind, as I was kind of researching, you know, this. So according to the 2023 Long Term Care Insurance Price Index, that’s put out by the American Association for long term care insurance, AALTCI. General estimates, and this is for this is for a policy that has an initial benefit amount of $165,000, it grows at 3%, compound inflation. So that’s kind of the general baseline. At age 55, for a single male individual, those premiums range from $1700 to $2,100 per year. So obviously, you’re in that that range of $2500 to $3000. Single females, unfortunately, ladies, your premium jumped quite a bit, you tend to live longer than men. Single female, it’s actually $2675 to $3,600. And then a shared benefit, so a couple that kind of combines their benefit together is is $3,000 to $4,800. So that’s at age 55. It jumps age 60, for a single male goes from $2100 to $3000. So that’s up from $1700 from $2100, single female jumps from $2675 to $3600, to $5000. And then the couple $3800 to $5500 combined. And then lastly, it’s 65, single male $2600 to $3135. So that’s a jump from the $2100 to $3000, single male $4230 to $5265, and then the couple $5815 to $7150. So, and I would say, Tim, that the factors are influencing these premiums, the probably the big one here is going to be the inflation protection. So it’s probably the most the most expensive rider that’s out there. And if you actually tie it, I don’t even know if they sell them. I don’t think they sound like this. But they’re they’ve been insurance products in the past to actually tie it to the CPI. I think they don’t necessarily do that. It’s like how you pick a 1% 2% 3% 4%. That’s going to drive the biggest cost to the to the you know, to the premium. Age of purchase, obviously, as we kind of outlined here is a big factor your health so health are healthier individuals will qualify for better rates, the benefit amount and duration. So a highly highly daily benefit or a bigger benefit pool. And a longer, you know, longer period won’t increase your premiums, elimination periods. Will I think it talks about this another in another question, the shorter the elimination periods and think about this as a time deductible or a deductive deductible that’s in time, results in higher premiums. I mentioned the inflation protection and then additional riders so, you know, other things that could be outside of inflation, shared care will increase the cost. So these are kind of the factors but you know, I think almost all being equal, you know, if we were to strip away the 3%, which again, that’s a major rider, I think they’d become a little bit more affordable. And I think if you’re looking at a baseline policy that that will allow you to age in place, meaning like age in your home as long as humanly possible. I think if you can look at these policies almost as like a coupon for that care. Not that you know, we talked about this. A lot of people think like oh, I need 100% solution to put my kids through college or I need 100% solution for this. It’s not about that it’s really about providing a baseline benefit for you that you can then pull the levers on other parts of your financial plan other other, you know, assets that you have to then, you know, form a fully comprehensive plan with regard to long term care.

Tim Ulbrich 10:22

Yeah. And Tim, as you share that, it reminded me of bringing Cameron Huddleston, on the show who wrote mom and dad, we need to talk we had her on episode 321. Navigating some of those financial conversations with aging parents, and some listening might might be thinking about this as the coverage for themselves. Some listening might be thinking about this as, hey, what about my parents, right, that are aging? What what do they have in place, and obviously, there can be a direct line from their coverage or lack thereof and their own financial plan. And so, you know, when you’re talking about the different factors that can affect the cost to me, but I also hear in there is like, we’ve got to zoom out and understand, like, what are the desires and the needs? What what is the goal in terms of long term care, obviously, things may happen or not as we would like them to happen. But having some clarity on you mentioned, like care in the home versus a facility type of care, like, those conversations are going to be really important for us to think about individually, but also with our parents to then look at some of these policies and determine, you know, what we want these policies to be doing in the coverage.

Tim Baker 11:25

Right. Yep, exactly, right.

Tim Ulbrich 11:28

You mentioned riders a couple times before we go to the next question. Can you can you just define that for those that may that may be a new term as they’re looking at insurance policies?

Tim Baker 11:37

Yes, riders are things that they’re like, the kind of like, add on features. So when an insurance writer, you know, wanting like, like for a life insurance policy, a permanent policy, or a disability policy could be like a waiver of premium. So like, if you have if you’re deemed disabled, you could put a rider in that policy that basically says, if you are disabled, the policy will remain remain in force, however, you don’t have to pay the premium. For for the what we’re talking about is cost of living. As you know, things increase every year and inflation goes up, the policy kind of keeps pace with inflation, or at least there’s a flat rate. So all a writer is is a additional feature that’s bolted onto the policy that makes it more enticing to the policyholder holder. However, it often comes with expense, you know, it comes with an additional premium that’s tied to that. So that’s all rider is.

Tim Ulbrich 12:43

Great stuff. So we talked about what’s the ideal age range, we’ve talked about the average premiums, what goes into that costs, several different factors. You mentioned, some of those riders, age of purchase health, what the actual policy entails elimination period. Let’s talk about elimination period. That was one of the other questions that came through is, you know, is there an elimination period with a long term care policy similar to what folks might be familiar with with a long term disability policy? So if you could first define elimination period? And then answer that question?

Tim Ulbrich 13:11

Tim, as you’re sharing all of these nuances and details regarding long term care insurance policies, you know, as can be the case with buying insurance, right, you pull back the onion. And there’s another question to consider, another question to consider what the policy should be made up of which all informs the cost, right? And what we have to answer the question when it comes to insurance, whether it’s long term care, or long term disability life, whatever we’re talking about is, what do we need? And what do we not need? Right, because obviously, we want to have a certain level of protection, that’s going to protect the rest of our financial plan. But we also don’t want to be overspending on premiums so there’s an opportunity cost that those dollars can be used elsewhere in the financial plan. And I think this is important point to selfishly plug, the work that we do and other fee-only financial planners were when you’re engaging in that work in a fee-only relationship, meaning that you’re paying the advisor for the advice that they’re giving. And there’s not a compensation stream coming from the recommending of products that may or may not be in your best interests, we really can sit down and have these conversations of what do you need, what you not need, without there being a bias in the advice that’s been given. So important.

Tim Baker 13:11

Yeah, so the elimination period, as I mentioned, is kind of like, think of this as like, when you get in a car accident, and you are, so your deductible is $500, or $1,000. You have to pay that, you know, as part to kind of access the policies policy. So if I have a, you know, an accident, and I need work on my car, that cost, you know, $2000, for that, for the policy to pay out that $2000, I have to actually pony up the deductible, which is, you know, 500, or whatever it is. So it’s it kind of what it what it what it’s meant to do is create somewhat of a barrier to care, they don’t want these policies don’t want to be accessed or have claims against if they’re if they’re nominal or minimal. So in a long term care insurance policy, you pay that in time. So to back up, when we talked about when you know, the process of purchase and long term care, I kind of broke this up into five steps, it’s actually deciding when to purchase a policy which we talked about, it’s to choose kind of a monthly benefit. The third one is a truce of deductible, which I’ll break down here in a second and then four and five is that decide how long the benefit will be paid. And then the fifth one is decide, you know, what is what riders you want? Do you want an inflation rider or not? So, to go back to step three of choose a deductible, deductibles come kind of in all shapes and sizes. So in terms of a time you can get a deductible, that is, you know, the elimination period I should say that the deductible and time that is 30, 60, 90, 180 or 365 days out. The most common is 90. So the idea behind this is, once once a professional physician says, you know, Hey, Tim, you need help with assisted daily living, like the task of transferring or eating or whatever, then that’s when the clock starts. So if I have a 90 day elimination period, and the doctor determines that July one, then essentially on October one, and sometimes it takes another month to actually get the benefit, you know, October one or November one, that’s when actually the policy starts to pay out. Now, what I just described was a calendar based a calendar day elimination period, there’s really two types, there’s calendar day. And then there’s service day. So the calendar day is based on the total number of days from the start of needing care, i.e. that physician says, hey, Tim, you need care, regardless of how often you use services, as opposed to a service day elimination period, which is based on the actual number of days he received paid care. So think about when you think about long term care, it’s often intermittent care, you don’t have someone around the clock, maybe they come in, you know, three days a week to clean and help you do some things around the house. So there’s pros and cons on each on each, right. So if you have a service day, service day care, if you have a 90 day service day elimination period, and you receive care three times a week, it would take approximately 30 weeks to meet the 90 day. So we’re versus like, if you have you know, on that first example, July one, I need care, you know, October 1, I’m getting, you know, I’m getting my policy to pay. So, you know, there’s pros and cons of each, you know, typically the calendar days going to be more expensive than the service day. You know, if you if you only need intermittent care, and it’s it’s maybe even less than, you know, weekly, you need it, you know, once a week or whatever it is, and the maybe the service day, you know, works. So this, these these elimination periods is all about trying to find, again, the Goldilocks zone for what type of care you need, what you what you want to pay for your policy, and then adjusting it for that. So that’s the elimination period, Tim. So again, most common is the 90 day. I think, I’m not sure what is more common between service and calendar day, I think if you want more of a known timeline, then calendar is kind of what you want. But then, you know, again, that’s probably going to be more expensive when it comes to paying the premium. That you have the the overlap between advice and the sale of a product, there’s going to be a conflict of interest, because often often that sale of a product, you know, means there’s a commission that’s in place. And yeah, and I’ll bring up one of the things. You know, I feel like when I was presenting, you know, I think the the latest data says that a couple, a couple that’s age, age 65, see if I can bring up the number. A couple that’s a retired couple age 65 can expect to spend after tax $315,000 on health care and medical expenses during retirement.

Tim Ulbrich 19:14

After tax.

Tim Baker 19:15

Right. So and I think you might look at that be like, Oh, that’s not that bad. But like, a lot of people I look at that. I’m like, that’s a that’s a significant chunk of my, you know, traditional, like portfolio. Right? So and then the thing with this is that, you know, the last time I looked at this a year or two ago, like these numbers, they’ve jumped significantly. So, I think again, you know, if you’re and this is like if you think about like the biggest cost in retirement is really not like health care and medical expenses, it’s housing. So you know, if you think about this plus housing and that’s a significant chunk of a lot of people’s, you know, retirement nest eggs. So the the idea of behind, you know, long term care is to provide a baseline, again, you know, simple math, you know, you could spend $3,000 for 30 years and you know, spend, you know, $90 grand and give you that baseline, and again, you know, it can change. But to me, it’s about, again, getting those products in place for the plan that you’re trying to design without kind of some of those strings that you mentioned that are attached to that. So. Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich 20:27

Yeah, this is you’re talking, it’s all good reminder for me, you know, my conversation with my parents. We’ve had an open conversation. I know they have a long term care policy, I don’t know the nuances of the policy. I know they’ve been diligent in that work. I know, it’s something they’ve talked about, they’ve they worked through intensely. But obviously, the the next level of that is to really ensure that my brother and I have a understanding of what’s there as well. Before we move on to Medicare, last question, related to long term care is, are there any recent policy changes or trends in long term care insurance that our listeners should be aware of when planning for their future?

Tim Baker 21:06

Yeah, I kind of see three, the big one I mentioned already, is, I think there’s a big push towards the aging in place initiatives, the the longevity of a person of a patient increases, when they can age in their home for as long as possible. And actually, a lot of these policies, Tim, are really designed to provide as much care and benefits to do that. So whether that’s setting up things like ramps or handrails or modifying the home to make it better, to, you know, again, have more of a focus on in home care than in a facility, once you pivot to a facility. You know, it’s it’s, it’s, it’s better for you to stay in home as long as possible. So there’s, there’s a growing focus on aging in place programs. And also that include kind of like wellness interventions like home modifications, and, you know, use of technology to monitor health and provide care remotely, so kind of more of a telehealth type of stuff. The second one is shift into more like hybrid policy. So there’s an increase in preference for hybrid long term care policies, which are often combining long term care benefits with life insurance or annuities. So, you know, if you were to decide to peel off, you know, a couple $100,000, a quarter million dollars of your, of your retirement portfolio to create a baseline floor, so you know, what you get for security plus, what this annuity pays you for the rest of your life, there’s, there are riders that you can put in that also provides long term care. So these policies policies offer more flexibility. And it’s, it’s, it’s less about, like, a lot of people with really annuities and long-cares, like, you know, you kind of lose it if you don’t use it, right. So making them more attractive to consumers, compared to kind of a traditional policy. Right. So that’s, that’s, that’s another one is kind of that hybrid approach. And then the third one, is, we’re starting to see more chatter and action initiatives for public long term care programs. So states, like Washington have introduced public programs, called Washington’s called the Washington Cares Fund, which began payroll contributions in July of 2023. And the basically what they’re trying to do is provide basic long term care benefits to residents. So they have something in place, because I think the the main misconception about long term care is that Medicare is going to cover this and it really doesn’t. So I think certain certain state governments are looking at this as a way to set aside money for residents to have some type of benefit in place for the purpose of providing, you know, long term care.

Tim Ulbrich 24:15

Great stuff, Tim. A topic, we’re going to continue to come back to, as I know, there’s lots of questions out there from the community. And since you mentioned annuities in that second update, and you know, we’ve talked before about that concept of creating a retirement paycheck, creating a floor between social security and annuities, whether or not that’s the right fit is another discussion, but we did talk about annuities on episode 305. Understanding annuities, we did a primer for pharmacists. So if folks are hearing that are like, oh, I want to want to learn more. We’ve covered that before we’ll link to that in the show notes. Tim, let’s shift gears to talk about Medicare. And again, we’ve discussed this briefly on the show before, Episode 329 with Medicare selection and optimization. Many pharmacists are aware of the different parts of Medicare from the work that they do every day. So let’s jump into some specific questions. The first one being for Medicare Part D, is there, (D as in dog), is there a penalty if you delay applying?

Tim Baker 25:14

Yeah, so so Medicare Part D is for a prescription drug plan. So yes, there is a penalty if you delay enrolling in Medicare Part D, the late enrollment penalty is an additional amount added to your Part D premium. And it’s calculated based on the length of time you went without Part D. The big thing here, Tim, is that it’s permanent. So once that penalty hits, it’s gonna hit as long as you have a Part D. So the way they calculate it, this, it’s 1% of the national base premium beneficiary premium for each full month, you went without coverage. So, and this goes up and changes every year. So as an example, the in 2023, the National base beneficiary premium was $32.74. So it’s not a ton of money. 1% of that is 33 cents. But you know, if you miss three months, that’s a whole whole dollar that you’re permanently paying on top of that. So it adds up, it’s one of those things that you don’t want to miss. So this is again, if you if you forego enrolling in Part D, you want to make sure that you do that when you’re you know, general enrollment comes up. So that’s that’s the penalty for part D.

Tim Ulbrich 26:29

I think getting out in front of this, I’ve observed this time with my father-in-law and in my conversations with Josh, that we had on the show, Episode 329. This is just a big decision. You mentioned the permanent penalty, but also, this is people getting flooded with all types of information. Right? You know, I think there can be a paralysis just with the overwhelming amount of information. So starting this process early, making sure you’re doing research working with professionals that really understand this and have your best interests in mind is, is huge. The second question is what are the potential penalties for late enrollment in Medicare Part A, B, and D, we talked about D already. And are there any exceptions or circumstances where these penalties can be waived?

Tim Baker 27:09

Yeah, so so for Part A, most people don’t pay a premium for Part A, that’s kind of what your, you know, your payroll taxes already where you pay into Medicare while you’re working. However, some people do, do and if that’s the case, you have a monthly premium that may go up by by 10%. And you have to pay the higher premium for twice the number of years, you could have had Part A but you didn’t sign up. So again, most people, they’re going to, they’re going to dodge this because they’re not going to pay a premium for Part B. Again, just like Part D is that there is a penalty, and it’s permanent. So if you don’t sign up for Part B when you’re eligible. So this is your Part A is your hospital insurance, Part B is kind of easier is your outpatient, the penalty is added to your monthly Part B. So you calculate the this by looking at the penalty is 10% of the standard Part B premium. And I think in 2023, that premium was essentially $165, $164.90. So 10% of that, that that can add up, right. So and then the duration, you have to pay this penalty for as long as you have Part B the penalty is permanent and will be added to your premium. So if you delayed signing up for Part B for two years, your penalty would have been 20%- two years times to 10% of the standard premium. So in this example, your monthly premium would be a penalty, it would have been $164.90. But then, because you waited two years, the new premium is $197.88 cents. So more dire than prescription higher premiums, probably more punitive penalty. So this is really important as you are approaching your window. So just a reminder, you know your window, it’s the month before and after your eligibility date, so I should have this here. Here we go. So individuals that age 65, it’s a seven month period. So it’s three months before you turn age 65. The month you turn 65 and then three months after you turn 65 is your general or is your initial enrollment period. And that’s where you really want to make sure that you enroll in A, B and D at a minimum to avoid the penalties.

Tim Ulbrich 29:40

Great stuff there. Last question we have on Medicare, same one we heard on the long term care insurance side. Are there any recent policy changes or trends in Medicare that individuals should be aware of when planning for the future? And I guess we should say as we talked today, there’s a presidential debate tonight. I’m guessing this will become a topic in the presidential elections as it often is. So some of that will be hearsay, but anything that has been solidified or any changes that folks should be aware of?

Tim Baker 30:07

Yeah, and I’m going to answer this, Tim. And I want to go back to some of the exceptions that I didn’t answer for the question before. So the really the only things that I’m seeing for part D in for Medicare is related to part D. So starting this year, the 5% co-insurance requirement for Medicare Part D enrollees will be eliminated. So, I think what they’re what they’re trying to do is, is really go after high cost medications. So this is meant to reduce out of pocket. Beginning in 2025, though, there’ll be a $2000 annual out of pocket spending cap for part D, which will also provide significant savings with regard to high prescription drug costs. And then the two other trends that I’m seeing, is ones around consumer protection. So they really want the government really wants to kind of crack down on deceptive marketing practices. And so they don’t, they don’t want you know, companies that, you know, talk about these plans to kind of mentioned specific plans, and more oversight for like agent and broker monitoring to kind of, to kind of reduce predatory behavior. So kind of, you know, they want to prevent seniors from being pushed into a plan that they don’t necessarily want or need. And then the expansion of telehealth and digital health education is another thing in Medicare that they’re trying to, to focus on. To go back to the second part of the question that I didn’t answer, where the penalties can be waived. There are certain circumstances where the penalties can be waived. So if you are if you or your spouse are still working, and you have health care coverage through your employer, you can sign up for Part A during a special enrollment period without a penalty. And the special enrollment period typically lasts for eight months, after employment ends, or the group health coverage ends, whichever happens first. For part B, it’s the same thing. If you have, you know, coverage through an employer, that that can be, you know, something that, you know, avoids the penalty. And then Part D, if you have if you have like, coverage through your employer or TRICARE, or you’re a veteran, that, that that will waive the penalty. And then if you are in a disaster zone, like a disaster, like they’ll give you like a waiver for the penalty, if you can kind of prove that you were there or the extra help. It’s kind of a low income subsidy. If you didn’t sign up for Medicare, that’s another waiver. But you know, typically, outside of those, you’re gonna you’re gonna see that penalty. So that the kind of round out that second question there, Tim.

Tim Ulbrich 32:49

Great stuff. Tim. Lots of questions and engagement from the community on this topic. Be on the lookout – we have more webinars coming throughout the year, you can always find information on our website, yourfinancialpharmacist.com. If you’re subscribed to our newsletter, you’ll get updates there as well. We’d love to have you attend one of our future webinars covering a wide array of different financial topics for pharmacists at all stages of the career. And if you have a question on these two topics or another question, feel free to send us an email [email protected]. Again, [email protected]. And we’ll try to tackle that on an upcoming episode of the podcast. Now as we cross the midway point of the year, it’s a great time to check up on your financial progress for the year and dust off some of those goals that you set back at the turn of the new year. If you’re like me that perhaps feels like a distant memory at this point in the year. Whether you’re focused on long term care insurance and Medicare like we talked about today, or investing for the future paying off debt saving for kids college growing a business or side hustle. Our team at YFP is ready to help. At YFP we support pharmacists at every stage of their careers to take control of their finances, reach their financial goals and build wealth through comprehensive fee-only financial planning and tax planning. You can learn more and book a free discovery call with Tim Baker by visiting yourfinancialpharmacist.com. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com. Tim, great stuff. We’ll be again back again next week.

Tim Baker 34:12

Yeah, sounds good.

Tim Ulbrich 34:16

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute your permits as of the date published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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