Financial Planning / Podcast

YFP 356: Love and Money: How to Successfully Navigate your Finances with a Partner

Posted on April 25, 2024April 25, 2024 by YFP Media

Tim Ulbrich, PharmD (YFP Co-Founder & CEO) digs into how to successfully navigate finances with your partner and shares 25 questions you can use to frame conversations around money.

This episode is brought to you by First Horizon.

Episode Summary

On this episode, we’re talking about love and money! Discussing finances with your spouse, partner or significant other can be tricky sometimes. Tim Ulbrich shares 25 financial discussion questions to help you navigate these important conversations along with a free resource you can download to help get you started. From reflecting on your “money classroom” and the way you were raised to understand money to how you feel about debt, savings, and other important goals, Tim guides you through these important conversations. There is no one-size-fits all to managing finances in a relationship – but sharing the same vision and goals with your partner can set you up for success. This episode is brought to you by First Horizon.

About Today’s Guest

Tim Ulbrich is the Co-Founder and CEO of Your Financial Pharmacist. Founded in 2015, YFP is a fee-only financial planning firm and connects with the YFP community of 15,000+ pharmacy professionals via the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast podcast, blog, website resources and speaking engagements. To date, YFP has partnered with 75+ organizations to provide personal finance education.

Tim received his Doctor of Pharmacy degree from Ohio Northern University and completed postgraduate residency training at The Ohio State University. He spent 9 years on faculty at Northeast Ohio Medical University prior to joining Ohio State University College of Pharmacy in 2019 as Clinical Professor and Director of the Master’s in Health-System Pharmacy Administration Program.

Tim is the host of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast which has more than 1 million downloads. Tim is also the co-author of Seven Figure Pharmacist: How to Maximize Your Income, Eliminate Debt and Create Wealth. Tim has presented to over 200 pharmacy associations, colleges, and groups on various personal finance topics including debt management, investing, retirement planning, and financial well-being.

Key Points from the Episode

Navigating finances with a partner, identifying money personalities, and setting goals. [0:00]
Financial planning for pharmacists, merging money personalities in relationships. [1:49]
Money personalities and setting financial goals. [5:50]
Financial goals, budgeting, and spending plan for couples. [10:39]
Financial goals, debt management, housing, transportation, and children’s education. [14:57]
Financial planning with a partner, including goals, investing, and retirement planning. [20:04]
Financial planning and management strategies for couples. [24:32]

Episode Highlights

“I think it’s really important that we spend time to reflect on and identify our money personality and how this does or does not match with our partner. For some of you that have been at this topic for a while, you know how emotional and how behavioral this whole topic of managing money can be. And so it’s important we spend time to reflect on and to get curious about what our money approach is.” – Tim Ulbrich [4:13]

“It’s really helpful that we reflect upon what is the approach that we have surrounding money? How might that have been influenced by the money classroom that we grew up in? The more we can understand that about ourselves, as well as our partner, and how we bring those characteristics into the relationship can be really helpful as we set a plan going forward.” – Tim Ulbrich [8:03]

“Is everything merged when it comes to the finances? Might we have some things separate? Some things merged? Of course, that’s an individual decision for everyone. But ultimately, on some level, we want to have a shared vision, even if some of those items might be separate.” – Tim Ulbrich [8:38]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody Tim Ulbrich and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week we’re talking love and money how to successfully navigate your finances with a significant other spouse or partner. Easier said than done right? During the show, I discuss how to identify with your money personality and how this does or does not match with your partner strategies for setting and achieving goals together 25 financial questions and discussions that every couple should have? Hang with me. I’ll give you a resource and a link to download those questions and advice from the YFP community on what has and has not worked for them in their own journey, navigating this important topic with their partner.

Tim Ulbrich 00:45

Now before we jump into this week’s episode, I have a hard truth for you to hear. Making a six figure income is not a financial plan. Yes, you’ve worked hard to get where you are today. Yes, you’re earning a good income. But have you ever wondered, Am I on track to retire? How do I prioritize and fund all these competing financial goals that I have? How do I plan financially for big upcoming life events and changes such as moving, having a baby, changing jobs, getting married or retiring? And perhaps why am I not as far along financially at this point in my career as I thought I would be? Well, maybe the answer is that your six figure income is not a financial plan. As a pharmacist, you have an incredible tool in your toolbox: that’s your salary. But without a vision and a plan that it good income will only go so far. That’s why we started Your Financial Pharmacist where YFP we support pharmacists at every stage of their careers to take control their finances, reach their financial goals, and build wealth through comprehensive fee only financial planning and tax planning. Our team of certified financial planners works with pharmacists all across the United States and helps our clients set their future selves up for success while living a rich life today. If you’re ready to see how YFP can support you on your financial journey, you can learn more by visiting your financial pharmacist.com/learn again, that’s your financial pharmacist.com/learn. Alright, let’s hear from today’s sponsor First Horizon and then we’ll jump into the show.

Tim Ulbrich 02:16

Does saving 20% for a down payment on a home feel like an uphill battle? It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high student loan debt, meaning that saving 20% for a down payment on a home may take years. For several years now we’ve been partnering First Horizon who offers a professional home loan option AKA a doctor or pharmacist loan that requires a 3% downpayment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers, has no PMI and offers a 30-year fixed rate mortgage on home loans up to $766,550 in most areas. The pharmacists home loan is available in all states except Alaska and Hawaii, and can be used to purchase condos as well. However, rates may be higher and a condo review has to be completed. To check out the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to start the pre-approval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com /home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

Tim Ulbrich 03:20

Hi there, Tim Ulbrich here flying solo this week as we talk about love and money: how to successfully navigate your finances with a partner. Now first things first, this is a heavy topic right? And I do not have all the answers. When it comes to our financial plan for Jess and I we have found the system- keyword system -that works best for us. But we are far from perfect. We’ve made our fair share of mistakes. We haven’t always been on the same page. And it certainly has required compromise and grace on both sides. So this is not a preach and teach episode. That would be very helpful. Rather, the intent is to give you some things to think about and conversation starters, to find the system that works best for you. Because at the end of the day, that’s going to be what matters most.

Now, before we jump into some of the tactical strategies, and some of the questions and conversation starters, I think it’s really important that we spend time to reflect on and identify our money personality and how this does or perhaps does not match with our partner. Right for some of you that have been at this topic for a while, you know how emotional and how behavioral this whole topic of managing money can be. And so it’s important we spend time to reflect on and to get curious about what is our money approach? What is our money, personality? What is our money classroom that we grew up in the household that we grow up in financially? And how does that perhaps shape how we manage our money today and ultimately how we merge two of those money personalities together as we try to work and get on the same page. So some questions to think about here as it relates to the money personality. Do you approach money in the same manner that you were raised? Have you reflected upon the money classroom that you grew up in? And maybe what worked and didn’t work? Was money in your household an open conversation? Was it a closed conversation? Was it stressful? Was it calm? What was the emotional tone surrounding money? Was there transparency around money? Or was it a taboo topic? What were the spending habits, what was said? And what were some of the unsaid lessons that you learned along the way? And how did all of this potentially contribute to the money personality and the habits that you employ today that you ultimately bring into your relationship? Right, good and bad. Probably true for all of us.

If you want some guidance on this, there’s a great resource, we’ll link to it in the show notes. The Money Couple has five different money personalities, they have a book and an assessment if you want to really dig in and go further on this topic. And they in that resource they referenced five money personalities, those five personalities are number one, the Security Seeker. Number two, is the Saver; number three is the Spender; number four is the Risk Taker; and number five is the Flyer. Now, anytime we do these assessments, right, we’re running a risk a little bit in terms of bucketing ourselves into one of these approaches, when often we may have a little bit of more than one of these. And that’s one of the things I like about this tool is they combine two of these, what they call a primary and a secondary to come up with your money profile. So for example, let’s say that you identify as a saver/security seeker. Okay, so just some quick definitions here a saver, pretty much their outlook is that as they share in their own resources, A penny saved is a penny earned. You make things happen by getting the best deal, right, you can often be someone that’s very thrifty. Characteristics of a saver would be someone who’s trustworthy organized with money, they also would have some real challenges potentially, including maybe obsessing over money, having a hard time letting go. And they would rarely spend compulsively, they really liked the plan. And they really liked that good deal. Now a Security Seeker, which here was the secondary personality, they have an outlook that better safe than sorry, right protection and security is the definition here. So these individuals make things happen by planning for the future. And they’re often very well prepared. So some defining characteristics here would be they can investigate things thoroughly do a lot of research challenges, of course, could be, you know, some of the potential and again, letting, letting go. And maybe finding that balance that we often talk about in the show of living the rich life along the way. Certainly also trustworthy with their finances, they want to make decisions by confirming that there’s a plan, right? So they’re not, they’re not gonna be very spontaneous, and they’re spending money like to have multiple options. This is just one example, one assessment. But it’s really helpful, again, that we get curious that we reflect upon what is the approach that we have surrounding money, how might that have been influenced by the money classroom that we grew up in, and the more we can understand that about ourselves, as well as our partner, and how we bring those characteristics into the relationship can be really helpful, as we then set a plan going forward.

Tim Ulbrich 08:27

So once we really think about some of those money, personalities, you know, I think it’s then that we want to really figure out how can we set and achieve goals together? Now we’re gonna get into a little bit about, you know, perhaps is it everything is merged when it comes to the finances? Might we have something separate? Some things merged, completely separate. Of course, that’s an individual decision for everyone. But ultimately, on some level, we want to have a shared vision, even if some of those items might be separate. And I think it’s so important, I’ve talked about this on the show before, that we start with the vision, and not necessarily start with the budget or the spending plan, right? Not start in the weeds, but really start on what is the dream that we have financially? What does success look like for us collectively as a unit? And can we agree upon that vision, that direction, that dream that we have for us financially, right? That’s a much, I say, easy but easier conversation than getting into the individual decisions. This is also the place where we really want to get all of those goals, all of those ideas out of our heads onto paper, we want to see what overlaps what doesn’t overlap. Obviously, there’s gonna be some compromise here along the way, but once we get them to be shifting from unsaid to said, right, so Jess can share her goals, I can share my goals, we can see what what is similar, what’s different, and then we can begin to start to compromise and prioritize those. That’s really where we can start to then begin to implement and execute on that vision. So for us, I’ve shared this before on the show, typically what we do is want once a year we’re looking at, hey, what does success look like for us over the next 12 months? Right? Keeping the bigger vision in mind? What does success look like for the next 12 months? And what are those things that we want to focus on spending? You know, so we’re looking at, hey, are we on track with savings goals for the future? And retirement planning? If not, what are some things that we want to surplus in the following year? What do some of the experiences look like for us in terms of vacations, home projects, things like that? What are the giving goals for the year right? These are the things that we need to begin to, again, get out of our heads onto paper so we can start to set a plan. Now, I think it’s really helpful here, especially if you have two individuals that are on completely different pages that this is really really where a third party can be very helpful. I know for Jess and I, our financial planner at YFP has been really helpful in getting us to have conversations not only together when we’re in the room with a financial planner, but also in between those meetings to make sure that this is an open conversation as we can possibly have. Now, I have some questions here that I think are good conversation starters. Right? I started the episode by saying this is not about telling you what you should do. This is really about helping to start conversations, stimulate some discussion so that you can figure out what the system is that works best for you. So I’ve organized these questions into different areas. And I have 25 of them, I’m just going to mention them briefly. And we have a one page resource that you can download for free that will have a list of these questions. You can go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/25 – two five again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/25.

Tim Ulbrich 11:43

Okay, so in the spirit of starting conversations, here are 25 financial discussions that I think are worth having. And let’s start with the first bucket, which is setting goals, budgeting and just the overall approach to managing the finances. So the first question is, have we discussed and agreed upon our short term, midterm and long term financial goals? Now you can define these differently, I think of short term goals is within the next 12 months, next year, mid-term, one to three years in long-term greater than three years. Obviously, you can determine the timeline that makes the most sense of you. And then furthermore, how can we best set, review and update these on a regular basis? So there’s that initial exercise, and then how often are we going to be reviewing these so that we can make sure we are able to implement those in the plan? Sounds simple, right. But everything starts with the vision and getting to some level of an agreement on the shared goals.

Second question here is have we developed and agreed upon monthly spending plan, budget, whatever you want to call it, that accounts for all of the income and all the expenses? And does this spending plan, budget, again, whatever you want to call it, does it represent and include the goals that we just worked through in the first question? Now, again, for some individuals, and I’ll share some data here in a little bit from our community, for some individuals, everything is merged. Some they have some separate, some is completely separate. So obviously, you have to work through this as it relates to how you treat the merging or lack thereof of the accounts. But do we have representation within our spending plan, approach, whatever that looks like lots of different ways to do that. So that the goals, there’s an actual plan to implement and achieve those goals.

Question number three, does one of us take more of the lead than the other when it comes to managing the finances? And if so, are both of us aware of our overall situation? How do we ultimately make sure that both parties are aware of the progress if one person is taking the lead. I have seen that that often, not always, often is the case where one person may take the lead. So if that’s the case, what’s the plan? What’s the strategy? What’s the structure so that both parties are aware of what’s going on? And the overall progress? Right, the overall situation?

Number four, I’ve alluded to this a couple times is the desire to merge all of our finances; to keep some separate, some merged; or to have everything completely separate. Now for Jess and I, we’ve made the decision that everything’s merged, I’m not here to tell you that you should do that, or that’s the only way. But really having that conversation of what’s best for us, is it all merge is a little bit of both, or is it everything that would be completely separate. Number five, do we need to check with one another before spending any money? If so, is it a certain amount? What’s the criteria for this? How do we determine this. Some, you know, couples might have a large purchase or something that would trigger hey, we need to have a discussion about this. So what are those criteria, if any exist when it comes to making some of those bigger purchases? So that’s the first group of questions around setting goals. budgeting and your overall approach.

Tim Ulbrich 15:01

The second group of questions is around debt management. Debt Management. So question number six here on our list of 25. is how much debt have we acquired thus far? Right? Do we know? Do we know the numbers? Is everyone aware of the debt that’s that’s accrued? And what will be our plan to pay off the debt? Do we both understand each other’s debt position and the feelings perhaps just as important, the feelings towards the debt? Right, for some people, I’ve talked about this on the show before for some people, there can be a significant aversion to debt? Others maybe that’s not the case. So if you have two individuals where you have opposite feelings on debt, that’s an important conversation to have. Are we treating this as our debt? Or is this separate debt? Right? When you think about things like credit card debt, student loans, car payments, or other things that especially may have been existing coming into the relationship. Number seven, again, on debt management, how comfortable are we with having debt? And I would encourage you to break this down further to different types of debt, right, including student loans, credit card, mortgages, car loans, etc. So not just a blanket debt good or bad, but how do we feel about different types of debt? And then final question on debt? Number eight on our list is do we view each other’s debt as our debt? Or is this your debt? Right? And how does that potentially approach how we pay that off? All right, third group of questions is around housing and transportation. So question nine on our list is how do we feel about renting property versus owning a home hot topic right now, given where the housing market is at, given where home prices are and where interest rates are at? And if we already own a home, are we okay with the current situation? Or is there potentially a desire to move? Right? Again, we want to get a lot of these questions and maybe things that we’re thinking about making sure we have an opportunity to discuss with one another. So if we don’t own a home already, how do we feel about renting versus owning a home? What’s that timeline? Like if we already own a home? Are we thinking we’re set? Or is there a potential or desire to move? Next question around housing transportation, number 10 on our list, if currently renting, and there’s a goal to own a home, do we agree on the location, on the purchase price, and the amount of downpayment that would be needed, right? That’s gonna have a big impact on the budget. And again, if things are separate, and not merge, how are we both contributing to that downpayment? And getting ready for that purchase? Number 11, as relates to transportation? Do we view our cars as a necessity? Is it a luxury where we lease? Are we gonna buy our cars? If we buy our cars? Are we paying them outright? Are we going to finance part of it? How do we view the transportation part of the plan? And again, let me pause here and reinforce what I was saying towards the beginning. I don’t really think there’s a right or wrong answer here. The goal is to really get you thinking about, hey, how do we feel individually? How do we feel collectively as a unit? You know, as I think about this question here on transportation, it reminds me of Ramit Sethi’s book, I Will Teach You To Be Rich. I’ve referenced that many times on the show before and one of the things he talks about he starts the book is this concept called Money Dials. And what he’s referring to there is identifying those things that derive the most significance and meaning for you as a part of the financial plan and have a plan to spend money, what he’s referring to is the dial, dial that up. And alternately for the things that you maybe don’t care as much about financially, dial that down, right. For some people, you know, transportation cars may be something that’s has significant value, and for other people, not so much.

Tim Ulbrich 18:35

Alright, next group of questions relates to kids, children. So number 12 on our list is how do we feel about one of the biggest expenses we often see in the financial plan – daycare? What’s our budget for this? And how does it fit in with other financial goals? Number 13, how do we feel about public versus private K through 12? education? You know, again, this might certainly link back to the home purchase and the location and and where you’re looking for home based on schools. And if it is private education is the goal, how will we plan for this and prioritize it with other financial goals? Number 14, again, in this area of children, how do we feel about paying for our kids college? This is a hot topic, right? You often see maybe people that are split on this. And how do we plan for this? Are we hoping to pay for it in its entirety? A partial amount? Are we banking on you know, scholarships or other funding other family to help taking on debt? What’s the plan for that? And then last question, as it relates to children, what ideas and strategies do we want to employ to teach our kids about managing money? Right? We started this episode talking about the money classroom we grew up in. And for those that have children in the home that you’re raising now, they’re obviously growing up in their own money classroom in your house. And so what strategies are we employing and how are we approaching teaching kids about money? What’s our philosophy about behind that, right. So this this gets to things like, you know, our philosophy around alarm allowances, and giving, and how we’re going to teach some of those lessons to our kids. And at what ages are they ready for those lessons?

All right, next group relates to saving, investing, and retirement planning. So question number 16, when it comes to the emergency fund, are we comfortable with three months? Right, your general rule of thumb recommendation three to six months of essential expenses? Are we comfortable with that? Three months, six months, something in between, something different? Have we discussed that? Again, are we on the same page with that?

Number 17, what financial goals are we trying to achieve by saving or investing? What does success look like, right? So we often talk about the importance of saving and investing for the future. But for what? What are we trying to achieve? And what does success look like? Number 18? What does retirement look like for both of us? Are there similarities? Are there differences? What’s the desired age? Right? What are the activities? What what are we working on? Which is the next question: what activities are we engaged in during retirement? What are we doing together? What are we doing separately? Right, beginning to envision so that we’re approaching that retirement phase with intentionality.

Next question, how much should we be saving and investing for retirement each month? And how do we balance and prioritizes with other goals? And then final question here on saving investing in retirement planning? What is our risk tolerance for investing? And again, if we have two different risk profiles? How are we approaching that as we’re saving, investing and planning for the future?

Final set of questions as a group, I’m just calling miscellaneous questions. Got four left on the list here. Number 22. How does each of us feel about giving? How much? How often?Where? How will we plan for this? And what priority? Are there certain things that we have to have achieved before we do this or not? Number 23: Do we plan to do the financial plan ourselves? Or are we looking to hire a professional to assist? Are we on the same page about this? If the goal is to hire someone, what are the criteria we’re going to use that will help us find the right fit? Who’s taking the lead in this conversation? What does that look like for us as a unit? When it comes to assisting family financially, whether that be caring for elderly parents, maybe that’s supporting a family member need or some other situation, how do we feel about this? Right? How do we feel about this financially, and the impact that it can have in other parts of our financial plan? And then finally, question number 25? How will we strike that balance between saving for the future and living a rich life today? What does it mean to us to be living that rich life today? And how are we prioritizing that in the financial plan?

So again, that’s 25 conversation starters, there’s a lot there, right, the different categories we talked about, you can download that list again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/25. I hope you’ll reference that maybe print it off, and have some of those discussions with your partner. Next, I want to give some input not just from me, but from the YFP community on what has and has not worked for them in their own journey of navigate navigating this topic with their partner.

So I recently posted a poll on LinkedIn asking the following question, that for those that are working with a significant other spouse or partner on their finances, which of the following best describes your situation: is everything merged or all the finances merged? Are some things merged something separate? Or is nothing merged? In essence, everything is separate. And what we saw from that data was just shy of 50%- 49% responded that all of the finances were merged. 42% responded that some were merged and some are separate. And 10% responded that nothing was merged, and that everything was separate in their accounts. Now, some of the comments and advice that I thought were helpful to pass on and again, some some different perspectives here. Kelly had this to say lots of systems can work. But it all starts with transparency. It’s not uncommon for one person in the household to do the bill pay, and thus see more of the transactions. Periodic money dates can help facilitate conversation. A favorite topic in our house is identifying mutual goals and where we want to prioritize funding for the year, sometimes their goals are not aligned. And that is important conversation, as well. So Kelly, comes transparency. Having that open conversation having those periodic money does it dates and sometimes those goals aren’t aligned, and important conversation to get on the same page. Tracy said that we have a joint household account, where we contribute an equal amount each month to cover our household expenses, and some minor rainy day savings. We tossed around percentage based on income but landed on equal flat dollar amount. We also have separate personal spending accounts for ourselves, so we don’t feel like we have to justify personal spending to one another. We’ve divvied up who contributes and covers what to each savings bucket and who does the insurance via their paycheck all this to say after typing this that our marriage is basically a business. I thought that was some humor to add in there as well. Cassidy said my husband, I follow the 50-30-20 budgeting process right now. We have a joint account where 50% of our income goes towards household expenses and joint purchases, a joint high yield savings where we both contribute 20% of our paycheck for larger goals. And then 30% goes in our fun money personal checking accounts. So far it’s working great ensures that we’re both contributing an equitable portion of our income.

Final one that came in is someone shared just got married in summer of 2023. My husband wanted to keep our finances separate, except for one joint checking to pay utilities out of. This came from seeing his parents get divorced about six years ago and had always fought about money. He did not want that to be us. So going into the marriage, we plan to keep our own savings. I that’s a great example before I go further with this one of how that upbringing, right, how that money classroom can impact how we approach our money today. She goes on to say that we’re now nine months married, and we’re getting ready to buy a house with the need to pay the mortgage, we’re rethinking finances and will likely be combining more of our money. He prefers a separate checking account for each item, such as utilities and mortgage, we still plan to keep the money we had pre-marriage as our own stock savings, mutual funds, etc. We have a joint credit card for joint expenses and groceries that’s worked well. We still have separate credit cards. Being upfront about money has been so important to us. We’ve had several long conversations about money, pre-marriage, and within the last few months to get us set up for success. So it sounds like here, there’s even some transition, as they’re getting ready to purchase a home. They’ve been married now just shy of a year, maybe perhaps more that’s moving into the joint accounts, but a system that they’re still working through.

So I appreciate all of those that contributed providing different ideas. So again, the spirit of this right is to identify that system that works best for you. Right works best for you and your partner, really accounting where we started with reflecting on and getting curious about what is the money mindset? What’s the money personality approach that I have? And do I have a good understanding of that for me, as well as my partner? Really coming up then with those shared goals? That vision we talked about? What does success look like in the short, mid and long term, and then beginning to work through those individual areas of the financial plan.

Tim Ulbrich 27:19

Well, certainly last but not least, as many of you know, we have a team of Certified Financial Planners at Your Financial Pharmacist that we offer fee-only financial planning and tax planning, we work with pharmacists all across the country. And certainly we’d love to have the opportunity to work with you. And we’d love to have an opportunity to talk more to see whether or not the services are a good fit. You can learn more about our fee-only financial planning services again at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/learn. Again, that’s your financial pharmacist.com/learn. I think, as I mentioned a couple times that third party, right, that third party can be so helpful to facilitate some of these conversations and to begin to execute on the different aspects of the financial plan. Well, thanks so much for listening, and have a great rest of your week.

Tim Ulbrich 28:05

Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again, thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists and the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, which requires a 3% downpayment for a single family home or townhome for first time homebuyers and has no PMI on a 30 year fixed rate mortgage. To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan, and to get started with the pre approval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

Tim Ulbrich 28:51

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information to the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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	$500* Loans ≥50K = $500	Variable: 4.99%+ (with autopay)* Fixed: 4.96%+ (with autopay)** Read rates and terms at SplashFinancial.com	Splash is a marketplace with loans available from an exclusive network of credit unions and banks as well as U-Fi, Laurenl Road, and PenFed	Check Rate

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YFP 355: 5 Financial Moves to Make After Graduation

Posted on April 18, 2024April 17, 2024 by YFP Media

Sponsored by YFP+, YFP Co-Founder Tim Ulbrich shares five key elements for building a strong financial foundation after graduation.

Episode Summary

On this episode sponsored by YFP+, host Tim Ulbrich outlines five key elements for building a strong financial foundation. Whether you are a pharmacy student looking ahead, a soon to be 2024 graduate, or a resident, fellow, or new practitioner trying to find solid financial footing, Tim shares what it means to build a strong financial foundation, no matter where you are in your career.

With the average pharmacist facing staggering student loan debt and often lacking financial knowledge, Tim shares practical strategies to help pharmacists to begin to navigate debt management, investing, insurance coverage and retirement planning.

About Today’s Guest

Key Points from the Episode

Financial moves after graduation, including debt management and investing. [0:00]
Financial planning for pharmacists, including student loan debt and income management. [3:52]
Financial planning for pharmacists, including assessing current financial state and setting long-term goals. [8:28]
Proactive budgeting to prioritize financial goals. [13:50]
Investing early and often for financial success. [18:24]
Investing for pharmacists, including retirement accounts and tax-advantaged savings. [23:39]

Episode Highlights

“Without a plan, pharmacists certainly may be income rich, but net-worth poor.” – Tim Ulbrich [6:48]

“I saw firsthand how good decisions early in the career could certainly accelerate the financial plan, as I now look back nearly 18 years as well as how some of those bad decisions had a lingering effect in our financial plan. That’s part of the reason why I’m so passionate about teaching this topic to pharmacists at all stages of their career.” – Tim Ulbrich [8:08]

“At the end of the day, money is a tool. And we’ve really got to strike this balance between making sure that we’re taking care of our future selves, making sure that we’re putting this foundation in place today, and also living a rich life along the way.” – Tim Ulbrich [12:21]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast for each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. On today’s episode, I’ll be covering five financial moves to make after graduation. Whether you’re a student looking ahead, a soon to be 2024, grad, or resident fellow or new practitioner trying to find solid financial footing, this episode is for you. We’ll be talking all about what it means to build a strong financial foundation, including practical strategies that you can implement in your own plan.

Before we jump into today’s show, I have two exciting announcements. First up, make sure to sign up for our next YFP webinar on Thursday, April 25 at 8:30pm Eastern, where pharmacist and real estate agent, Nate Hedrick, The Real Estate RPh, co-host of the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast, will be presenting on your checklist for buying a home in 2024. During this free webinar, Nate will walk you through how to know if you’re ready to buy a home. We’ll discuss the current state of the housing market and give valuable insights into the home buying process. You learn more and register at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/webinar again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/webinar.

Second announcement last year we launched a nonprofit YFP Gives that aims to empower a community pharmacist to give to alleviate the indebtedness of the PharmD students and graduates, to help enhance the financial literacy within our profession, and to support other pharmacist-led philanthropic organizations and efforts. We’re thrilled to announce that our first round of the YFP Gives scholarships is now live! We’ll be giving out three $1,000 scholarships and applications are due on April, 30 2024. For those eligible for the scholarship include PharmD students and new practitioners within five years of graduation. You can learn more and apply at yfpgives.org/cholarship. Again, yfpgives.org/scholarship.

Alright, let’s hear more about our new online community YFP Plus, and then we’ll jump into today’s episode.

Do you ever feel like you’re trying to figure out this money stuff all on your own and aren’t sure where to turn? Maybe you’re overwhelmed with determining how to tackle your student loan repayment. Or perhaps you’re living paycheck to paycheck despite making a six figure income. Maybe you have a negative net worth and aren’t sure how to climb out of debt or make progress on your financial goals. Trust me, I’ve been there. When I finished my residency, I was starting at $200,000 of student loan debt and confused about how to best navigate the transition to new practitioner. I had a great income, but was living paycheck to paycheck and felt trapped. The good news is that you don’t have to continue feeling that way. At Your Financial Pharmacist, we want pharmacists to have the education, resources, and support they need to get a plan in place so they can stop feeling overwhelmed and they can use their six-figure income in the best way possible. That’s why we created YFP Plus an online membership community that empowers pharmacists to gain the knowledge and skills necessary to take control of their financial well being. Inside YFP Plus you have access to exclusive on demand courses. Like the prescription for student loan success, you have access to the right capital financial planning tool so you can track your debt assets and net worth to view your financial progress. You’ll have access to exclusive live events, monthly themes and challenges, a space to ask questions to YFP financial planning and tax professionals, and a community of like minded pharmacists on a similar financial journey as you. If you’re ready to get started inside YFP Plus to take control of your finances, visit yourfinancialpharmacists.com/membership. And if you sign up today, you’ll get a 30 day free trial. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/membership.

Hi there, Tim Ulbrich here welcome to this week’s episode of the YFP podcast. Excited to be talking about this very important financial transition, whether it’s going from student to new practitioner or resident or fellow to new practitioner, critical five year window, where we need to really be thinking about how we can best optimize the financial plan and get on some solid financial footing. So in the next several weeks, we’re about 12,000 pharmacy students that are going to be awarded the doctor of pharmacy degree joining them of course in the workforce will be those completing postgraduate training, whether that be residents, fellows, graduate students, and these graduates on average are gonna make about $120-$130,000 a year of course, depending on where they live in the area of employment they choose. And if we assume that they work a 40-year period with an average raise cost of living about one to 3% they’re going to earn approximately six to $9 million throughout their careers. Let me say that again: about six to $9 million of gross income throughout their careers.

Now if we assumed that about 30% of that income would be eaten up by federal income tax, FICA tax, which is Medicare and Social Security, state income tax, health insurance premiums, and a small contribution to an employer sponsored retirement plan, that leaves about four to $6 million of take home pay. So again, we start with about six to $9 million of gross income, we’re left with about four to $6 million of take home pay. Now I know that’s imperfect math, right? There’s a lot of assumptions that are in there, but just Just stay with me for a moment. We can debate how far a six figure income does or doesn’t go. But let’s agree that a pharmacist income on average, is about $50,000 above the average household income in the United States.

So if we look at the average household income in the United States, it’s about $75,000 per year, it was the average pharmacist’s income according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, that’s about $130,000 per year, right. So by all intensive purposes, pharmacists make a good income. And if it’s managed wisely, it should be more than enough. So what’s the problem? Well, I’ve talked with hundreds of pharmacists who make a great income but feel like they aren’t progressing financially. They feel stuck. And yes, student loan debt is a big contributor, but it’s certainly not the sole culprit. And I know that because we recently had three-plus years worth of a pause on federal loan payments starting back at the beginning of the pandemic, and those feelings of making a high income, but not progressing financially didn’t go away during that time period. The main reason I see pharmacists experiencing financial stress is the omission of having an intentional plan in place that includes clear goals, and a system that prioritize and funds those goals on a monthly basis. It’s proactive, intentional planning. Without a plan, pharmacists certainly may be income rich, but net-worth poor.

That’s really what today’s episode is all about. It’s about having an intentional plan, and building a strong financial foundation early in one’s career. Now, I know the importance of this because I lived it.

So as many of you know, I graduated from pharmacy school in 2008. I did a year residency, in 2009. Came out of residency entered an academic position. And I remember vividly having that feeling of, wait a minute, I make a good income, but I don’t feel like I’m progressing financially. And the main reason for my journey for our journey as a family is that early on, we were navigating through a sizable amount of student loan debt, a little over $200,000 of student loan debt. And we would eventually get that paid off in the fall of 2015. That was a big milestone for our journey, certainly one that I’m excited about and excited and teaching others about as well.

However, we made that journey more difficult than it needed to be. I didn’t understand terms like Public Service Loan Forgiveness, there wasn’t great information out there. We paid more interest than we had to in the journey. We perhaps, weren’t looking at how other parts of the financial plan fit together while we are also pursuing that debt repayment. And because of that, I saw firsthand how good decisions early in the career could certainly accelerate the financial plan, as I now look back nearly 18 years as well as how some of those bad decisions had a lingering effect in our financial plan. That’s part of the reason why I’m so passionate about teaching this topic to pharmacists at all stages of their career. Here, we’re of course talking about those that are making that transition. Now let’s talk about what I mean by having a strong financial foundation.

So through my own experience, and in teaching 1000s of other pharmacists on this topic, I’ve come to appreciate really five key elements that are critical to building a strong financial foundation. Now let’s be clear, this is not five things that once we check the list, this is the finish line, right? Think of this as literally the first couple blocks that we’re putting in place on the foundation of our financial plan so that we can grow and thrive in the long term and do so with confidence. So let’s talk through what these five areas are.

Number one is completing a financial vitals check. So I believe the starting point is to complete an honest self assessment of where you are today with your personal finances as a pharmacist, right. no need for judgment, no need for shame. Where are we today? Because before we can implement a plan, right, we have to have a good idea of our progress made thus far and what are some of those opportunities that we could potentially improve upon.

So here are just a handful of questions to really help you consider areas of the financial plan that might require your attention. Number one, do I have an emergency fund in place, approximately three to six months worth of essential expenses? Number two, do I have any revolving high interest rate credit card debt, right? I’m not talking about the credit card charges that you pay off each month but that revolving debt that’s accruing. Perhaps 20-25% interest. Number three, do I have an optimize student loan repayment strategy? Critical as we look at many new practitioners and the average debt load that folks are carrying, this is often a key piece of the financial puzzle that we have to put in place, and then build around it. Do I have sufficient own occupation, long-term disability insurance that covers about 60% of my income in the event that I’m unable to work as a pharmacist? A few more questions. Do I have sufficient term life insurance to care for loved ones who depend on my income? If that’s applicable. Do I have adequate professional liability insurance? And do I know my retirement number? Have I thought about, certainly far away, but what is that number that we’re shooting for in the future? Am I on track? If not, how much should I be saving each month to ultimately achieve that goal? We have a lot of information, and resources in each one of these areas available at yourfinancialpharmacist.com.

We certainly have talked through many of these topics at length on the podcasts and the blog, so make sure to check out those resources. Furthermore, if you if you want to go through some of this in more detail yourself, we have a really neat tool available called the YFP Financial Fitness Test. We’ll link to that in the show notes. It’s a really fun interactive quiz that will take you through essentially conducting a vital check in and help identify some areas that you perhaps can improve upon, and that you might want to implement as you look at setting goals for the future. So that’s step number one, completing a vitals check

Number two. Step number two is setting the vision setting the vision. So after we reflect on the current state, right, the current situation, the Financial Vitals Check. It’s time to really establish a vision for the future. Now, this is the area where I think it’s really helpful that we let ourselves dream a little bit right, we just perhaps bogged ourselves down and kind of looking at the current state and the reality, maybe that didn’t bring the greatest feelings of joy. And so this is our opportunity to really let ourselves dream a little bit. Spending time reflecting on questions like what does it mean to be living your rich life? What brings you the most joy? As it relates to the financial plan? Are there experiences such as traveling, giving spending time with family and friends or something else? Right, at the end of the day, money is a tool. And we’ve really got to strike this balance between making sure that we’re taking care of our future selves, making sure that we’re putting this foundation in place today, and also living a rich life along the way.

One more final question to reflect upon, if you were to find yourself in a position where you were financially independent, the find that you are no longer required to work. How would you be spending your time perhaps for some of you? The answer is, hey, exactly like I am is great. Right? This is meant to help us identify what are those things that derive and give us the greatest significance, and meaning in our lives. And for every person, this certainly can look different. So that’s number two. Step number two, letting ourselves dream setting the vision, before we start to chart the path forward. Alright, step number three, is to develop the spending plan to develop the budget to develop the system that’s going to help us bring this vision to reality. Right. So in step number one, we identified what are some of the opportunities, what are some of areas that we might want to focus on. Step number two is really about the vision of where we want to go.

Step number three, is now about making that come to life. Now, while one spending plan method, budgeting method, whatever you want to call, it will never be right for everyone, I really believe that the zero-based budget is a great place to start, especially for those early in their career, those that are looking to get back on track. Reason being is that with a zero-based budget, you give every dollar you earn a job before the month begins. This is a proactive planning process. Now, I’m not suggesting this as a method that you stay with forever. This certainly can feel onerous at times. But as we’re looking at defining how we’re spending our income, making sure that we’re allocating income towards our goals, and that we have a good track on what that income is and how it’s being spent. This system is really going to help us shine a light on that. So the goal is again, we’re doing this proactively is to spend your paycheck essentially down on paper to zero, and to ensure that your financial goals can be funded rather than hoping you have money leftover at the end of the month.

Okay, so for example, let’s say that after step one, which again, step number one was completing the vitals check, and step number two is really setting that vision. Let’s say you identify three goals that you want to focus on over the next year, just as one example. Let’s say goal number one is to save $500 per month for an emergency fund, and up until it’s fully funded at $25,000. Let’s say that you want to save $300 per month in a Roth IRA to supplement your retirement savings. And finally, is the third goal. Let’s say that you want to save $300 a month and a travel account to fund one trip per year. Okay, so in that vision setting, you determine that travel was a was an item that was really important. So in this case, with these three goals, right, we have some money set aside in earmark for the emergency fund some for retirement savings in a Roth IRA, some in a travel account, when you go to work the budget through the budgeting process, you want to have those three areas represented just like any other expense, so that you prioritize these before the month begins.

Again, we’re working proactively really important, rather than hoping we’ve got something leftover at the end of the month. So just like we account for a mortgage, or rent payment, or utility payment, or a car payment, right, we want to think about our goals in the same sense, and making sure that we’re building our plan accordingly to prioritize and fund those goals. In my experience, and in talking with others, so much of the stress, so much of the feelings of overwhelmed and confused around the financial plan comes from having all of these competing priorities swirling in our minds, without necessarily a plan for how we’re actually going to achieve them. Right. And so what we need to do, and what we’re trying to do here in step number three is get those ideas out of our head onto paper. So we can list them down, we can prioritize them, and we can start to put a plan in place to actually achieve those goals and to see the progress.

Now, sometimes we realize that, hey, in this season, or in this moment, we’re not necessarily going to get to all of those goals. That’s certainly normal. But at least we have an expectation of what’s happening. And we’ve been intentional with proactively planning how we’re going to work through those different goals. Now, if you’re ready to try this out yourself, we’ve got a free budgeting template you can download, we’ll take you through this process that I’m referring to here. You can download that at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budget, we’ll link to that in the show notes as well. Again, your financialpharmacist.com/budget. Alright, that’s step number three, developing the spending plan.

Step number four, is automating your plan. Now I’ve talked about this several times on the podcast, and I’ve referenced that this has really been one of the most transformational things that Jess and I, over the last 15-16 years since I graduated, have really evolved into that has had a significant impact on our own plan. So once we do the work in steps one through three, right. Once we’re able to complete that vitals check to identify what are some of those gaps, what their progress once we’re able to set the vision once we implement the spending plan. Now it’s time that we make sure we execute, right we actually achieve these goals. And that’s really what automation is all about. I

n his book I Will Teach You To Be Rich , Ramit Sethi says that automating your money will be the single most profitable system that you ever built. And I agree automation is so apparent, so effective, so easy to implement, yet vastly under utilized. It involves essentially scheduling the transfer of funds to the predefined goals, right? We just talked about that in the previous steps and doing so confidently knowing that we’ve already accounted for these in the budget, right, because we were proactively planning during that process. Sure, it takes a bit of time to set up. But once it’s set up, it provides a long term return on your time benefit. And perhaps equally, if not more important peace of mind knowing that you’ve thought about prioritize and have a plan working for you to fund your goals. Right. I just mentioned a couple moments ago that so much of the feelings of stress and confusion, overwhelmed come from that uncertainty come from the unknown. So this step is all about bringing it into the known and executing on the plan that we set.

Tim Ulbrich 18:54

So in terms of operationalizing this, one example certainly not the only way, my wife Jess and I, we have a high yield savings account. We use Ally Online Bank for all of our accounts. And inside of that high yield savings account, we essentially have several different buckets. And those buckets are named according to the goals that we’re working on. Right. So one bucket, for example, is an emergency fund. Another bucket might be for a vacation that we have earmarked, you know this summer or next year, one bucket is for the next car purchase one bucket might be for something related to the boys’ education or to the activities that they’re involved in. So all of that rolls up into one high yield savings account. So it’s liquid, it’s accessible, we can get it we can move it to our checking account if we need it. However, the key there is it’s earmarked and defined for the goals that we’re trying to achieve. Now. Just like I said, a little bit of a go, you know, this may not be a forever system that you have to develop. We have found it to be something that’s beneficial ongoing because it’s a visual reminder. It’s the visual aspect of hey, we set those goals, here are the actual buckets, right named for the goal that we worked on. And it allows Jess and I, I’d have some really good conversations. And of course, transparency into the system that we’re working on. This system it took us about 15 minutes to get set up. And again, you could just as easily achieve it through perhaps your own bank that you already have, or through tracking these in a simple spreadsheet. So, as I mentioned, the buckets are simply a visual representation, it really is just sitting in one high yield savings accounts. And it’s then earmarked to these different buckets. So that’s step number four is automating the plan.

Step number five, again, as we’re on this journey, towards building a strong financial foundation, is investing early and often. Investing early and often. Now, Albert Einstein is credited with saying whether he said it or not, compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it earns it, he who doesn’t, pays it. Right, regardless of whether he actually said it’s really good advice, the time value of money is real. And the earlier you save, the less aggressive you’re going to have to be. Now easier said than done, right? Considering many competing priorities that new practitioners are facing. And I remember well, in my journey after graduating 2008, not only was it the student loans that were staring us in the face, right, it was a potential home purchase, it was the emergency fund, it was building up some additional reserves, and of course wanting to enjoy some things as well during that transition. So there’s a lot of things that are coming at you in this season of life. And shortly thereafter, we would start our family and certainly new expenses that would be there as well.

Now let’s take a look at an example of how powerful early investing can be. Okay, early investing. So if we assume and you can run your own numbers using a number of calculators, we have several on the YFP site as well. But if we assume a pharmacist is making, let’s say, $126,000 per year, if we assume that their incomes gonna go up on average, about 2% per year could be a cost of living adjustment could be a performance adjustment, a combination of both, we’re gonna assume that they’re going to put away 15% of their income. And we’ll assume that there’s an average annual rate of return on that investment of 6%. Now, we know the markets don’t work like that in terms of a clean 6% every year. But for the sake of the calculation, we’ll go with that we’ll assume no match from the employer, and that they have a planned retirement age of 60. Okay, so pretty normal situation. So I’m gonna make an average pharmacists salary that’s putting away about 15% of the year and they want to retire at the age of 60. Now, what we see is that if they start at the age of 25, saving 15% of their income with these assumptions, when they get to the age of 60, the math tells us they’re gonna have about $2.6 million. Now, is that enough is a whole another question, right, we’ve talked about that. On the show before we’ve done an episode on how much is enough, we’ll link to that in the show notes as well. So 25, if they start, we’ve got $2.6 million at the age of 60, a coordinator these assumptions now if we wait to the age of 30, right, because of student loans, because life’s expensive, there’s a lot of things going on that 2.6 turns in $1.8 million. An $800,000 difference already. If we wait to 35, we’re down to $1.2 million. If we wait to 40, we’re down to $800,000. Right. So that’s the power of time value of money. That’s what Albert Einstein was talking about with compound interest in really the value of investing as early as we can, knowing that the earlier we invest, perhaps the less aggressive we’ll have to be the later we invest, the more that we’re going to have to do to catch up.

So naturally, then the question is, well, where do I save? Right? And that depends, of course, there’s lots of different options. Everyone’s investing journey is going to look a little bit different. We have to really assess what’s the risk tolerance, what’s the risk capacity, what are the goals, but many pharmacists are going to be focused early on, especially in their career on tax advantage, retirement accounts, tax advantaged savings accounts. So these would be employer sponsored accounts like a 401k or a 403B offered through your employer. Of course, as the name suggests, there’s both Roth and traditional versions of those anytime you hear traditional thing pre tax, anytime you hear Roth and post taxt. There would also be opportunities to save and something like an IRA stands for individual. So these are not through your employer. Again, there’s a Traditional and Roth version of those. Lower contribution limit in 2024 $7,000 versus in the employer sponsored accounts $23,000. And then the other one I typically think of in this bucket would be an HSA or health savings accounts, which again, we’ve talked about on the show at length before we’ll link to those episodes in the show notes as well. So those are the five foundation and steps and I would encourage you with each one of those to learn a little bit more. Right and as I think about and zoom out here for a moment we think about being on this financial journey throughout your career. Right. So important. Remember, here we’re talking about laying the early bricks of the foundation. Again, this is not the finish line where we start to check these boxes off, but rather, it’s that strong foundation upon which we can then build and hopefully build wealth throughout our career and live confidently knowing that we’ve done some of the hard work early on. So just a quick recap, step number one, we talked about completing that vitals, check the self assessment. Step number two, we talked about setting that vision step number three, developing the spending plan. Step number four, automating that plan, right, that was all about the execution. And then step number five is investing early and often.

So let me wrap up by sharing some advice that I got from the YFP community. I recently reached out to the YFP community to say hey, what are some of the things what are some of the things that you think would be helpful as you reflect back on your journey, going from student to new practitioner student to resident to fellow to a new practitioner that you wish you would have either learned or you wish you would have followed that advice and let me just share you a handful of those response.

One person in the life he can be said it’s worth it to learn how to budget early even on a resident salary you can save.

Another person said there’s one financial hack I wish someone had whispered in my ear my own graduation, house hacking with a high value short term, or midterm rental model. We’ve talked about house hacking on the show before referring there to essentially living in a unit can be a single unit duplex, triplex quad and then renting out a portion of a single family house or if you have multiple units renting out other units.

Another person in the YFP community said I wish I would have learned about the different student loan payment options and how to lower my taxes as a W2 employee.

Another person share this advice don’t put off paying your loans if you’re not going down to forgiveness pathway, tackle them head on, and get them done with. Financial life only gets crazier down the road with the addition of a spouse and kids. Looking back, I wish I would have lived as a student resident lifestyle for two years or more and paid extra to knock out those loans early. And then finally, someone else said if you do income based repayment for your student loans, don’t do forbearance during residency, your payments will be low, and you’ll be finished a year earlier.

So just a few pieces of advice from those in the YFP community that I’ve made that transition. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for listening on a regular basis. Again, we have several of these topics we talked about before we’ll link those into the show notes. And I hope you have a great rest of your week. Take care.

[DISCLAIMER]As we conclude this week’s podcast an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guaranteed of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the orphanage pharmacists podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 351: Legacy Planning 101: How to Build Your Legacy Folder

Posted on March 21, 2024March 21, 2024 by YFP Media

Tim Ulbrich discusses the importance of creating a legacy folder to organize essential financial documents for access during emergencies and peace of mind.

Episode Summary

In this episode, YFP Founder and CEO, Tim Ulbrich, delves into the critical aspect of establishing a “legacy folder” to efficiently organize essential financial documents and accounts. This folder serves as a vital resource in emergencies, streamlining access for loved ones and averting confusion or delays. Drawing from personal experience, Ulbrich shares how he and his wife maintain their financial plan and essential documents in a shared electronic folder and a secure physical safe at home, ensuring accessibility and peace of mind during unforeseen circumstances.

Tim explores the contents of the legacy folder, which encompass a comprehensive checklist, electronic copies, and hard copies of vital papers such as birth certificates and social security cards and other critical documents like insurance policies and estate planning materials.

Learn how to proactively organize your financial affairs to safeguard against unforeseen events, ultimately fostering financial peace of mind and security.

About Today’s Guest

Tim Ulbrich is the Co-Founder and CEO of Your Financial Pharmacist. Founded in 2015, YFP is a fee-only financial planning firm and connects with the YFP community of 15,000+ pharmacy professionals via the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast podcast, blog, website resources and speaking engagements. To date, YFP has partnered with 75+ organizations to provide personal finance education.

Key Points from the Episode

Building a legacy folder for financial peace of mind. [0:00]
Creating a “legacy folder” for financial documents. [2:36]
Important documents, insurance policies, estate planning, and car titles. [6:50]
Organizing financial documents for emergency situations. [14:59]

Episode Highlights

“So when it comes to why having a legacy folder is important. Getting organized with your financial records plays a significant role not necessary in terms of moving the needle on your net worth but in making sure you and others have access to all the information that you need to make informed decisions.” – Tim Ulbrich [2:24]

“Now, what is the legacy folder? So essentially the idea of a legacy folder, whether it’s a physical copy and electronic copy, or combination of both. It’s a place where you have all of your financial related documents. So in the event of an emergency, others will be able to quickly assess your financial situation and get access to all of the documents and accounts that pertain to your finances.” – Tim Ulbrich [4:07]

“Don’t underestimate the peace of mind and the clarity that can come from having this information collected.” -Tim Ulbrich [5:25]

“Once you get organized with your information, you’re going to be walking from that point of confidence, you’re going to feel prepared in taking action on other parts of your financial plan.” – Tim Ulbrich [16:49]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRO]

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I’m talking through Legacy Planning 101: How to Build your Legacy Folder and why it’s important. To assist with implementing this important step and your own financial plan, make sure to download the YFP Legacy Folder Checklist at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/legacy. This checklist includes a list of 15+ financial related documents that you can have a record of in your legacy folder. It helps you identify key parts of your financial plan that you may or may not have in place but need to get started. And it helps give you peace of mind knowing that in the event of an emergency, all of your financial documents are organized in in one location. Again, you can access that free checklist at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/legacy.

Tim Ulbrich 00:51

Now before we jump into today’s episode, I have a hard truth for you to hear making a six figure income is not a financial plan. Yes, you’ve worked hard to get where you are today. Yes, you’re earning a good salary. But have you ever wondered, am I on track to retire? How do I prioritize and fund all these competing financial goals that I have? How do I plan financially for big upcoming life events? Whether that be moving, having a child, changing jobs, getting married or retiring? And why am I not as far along financially at this point in my career, as perhaps I thought I should be? The answer your six figure income is not a financial plan. As a pharmacist, you have an incredible tool in your toolbox your salary, but without a vision and a plan that good income will only go so far. That’s in part why we started Your Financial Pharmacists back in 2015. At YFP we support pharmacists at every stage of their career to take control of their finances reach their financial goals and build wealth through comprehensive fee only financial planning and tax planning. Our team of professionals including certified financial planners and a CPA, work with pharmacists all across the US and help our clients set their future selves up for success while living their rich life today. Ready to see how Your Financial Pharmacist can support you on your financial journey? The next step is to book a free discovery call with our team by visiting YFPplanning.com Again, that’s YFPplanning.com Alright, let’s jump in today’s episode.

Tim Ulbrich 02:18

Hi there, Tim Ulbrich here. Welcome to this week’s episode of the YFP Podcast. I’m flying solo this week to discuss legacy planning 101: how to build your legacy folder and why it’s important. Now this episode is going to be a brief one. But I hope you can walk away with a specific action item or to relate it to your own financial plan. Whether that be to create a legacy folder if you don’t already have one or if you do to make sure that you look at it and update that information if it’s been a while. So when it comes to why having a legacy folder is important. Getting organized with your financial records plays a significant role not necessary in terms of moving the needle on your net worth, but in making sure you and others have access to all the information that you need to make informed decisions. Think for a minute about all the various financial accounts, documents, records, insurance policies, tax returns that you have right, the list quickly grows to be one that is overwhelming. And the more you operate in your own system, the easier it is to navigate for you. But unfortunately harder for others to unravel, should they have to do so in the future. Right? Think of a situation where in the event of an emergency, you have this beautiful system you’ve created, you know where all your accounts are all your files, all your passwords, but unfortunately, others aren’t able to readily access that and to make sense of that information.

That’s where the legacy folder concept comes in. I actually first heard of this idea, it’s not my idea, I first heard of it when taking Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University class, this was probably 15 years ago through our local church. And I remember walking away thinking, wow, that is so obvious, yet so important. And something that Jess and I hadn’t yet done at that point in our financial plan. Now, what is the legacy folder? so essentially the idea of a legacy folder, whether it’s a physical copy and electronic copy, or combination of both, which is what we have, and I’ll share more information about that. It’s a place where you have all of your financial related documents. So in the event of an emergency, others will be able to quickly assess your financial situation and get access to all of the documents and accounts that pertain to your finances. We just went through updating this – Jess and I did in our own financial plan, shifting everything to an electronic version with the exception of a couple things that we keep in a safe at home, so that in the event of something happening to Jess or I or both of us, those caring for our boys along with our financial planning team at YFP readily have access to all the necessary information that they would need.

So when I think of the importance of this, you know, it really is peace of mind but there’s a secondary part that we often don’t think about, which is it forces you to get organized right? When you go through this process, and I’ll talk about the different sections of our own legacy folder. When you go through this process, you quickly might realize, wow, I’ve got some areas of the plan that I need to clean up, I need to gather some information. And this like many other parts of the financial plan, sure, it takes a little bit of time to get set up. But once you have it set up, right, we’re then in that update or maintenance mode. And again, don’t underestimate the peace of mind and the clarity that can come from having this information collected. So what’s included in the legacy folder? Well, I mentioned our checklist before and if you didn’t already download that make sure to download the YFP legacy folder checklist, you can access that again, at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/legacy that will give you a good guide.

There’s no one right answer to this. So I’m going to talk through what we have in our legacy folder. And you can see maybe some of that makes sense. Or maybe you have other documents and sections that you would want to include. So here’s how we have it organized in a combination of a Google Drive a shared drive, and a safe at home with the password the master password to our One Password, which is the the password account that we use the password management account that we use, I have the master key password in a safe at home, along with some hard copies of some documents like birth certificate, social security card, etc. Those things are in the safe, everything else is stored electronically and anything that’s in the safe as referenced as such in the electronic documents so so keep that in mind to combination of an electronic folder we used to have this all in a paper copy it was in a blue folder, we used to joke with our my parents and our in laws that hey, if anything ever happens to Jess or I – get the blue folder! For obvious reasons, having everything in a hardcopy wasn’t ideal in terms of updating that as well as making sure that the integrity of documents stay in place.

Okay, so section one is what we call important documents. Okay, so these are birth certificates for Jess, for me, for our four boys, these are our social security cards for us and the boys, this is our marriage certificate. These are our passports. And these components, we keep in a fireproof safe at home, obviously, because the hardcopy is important to have. So that’s section one important documents.

Section two is insurance policies, and information. So this is something that we have to update. Some of these we have to update annually, others not so much. So for example, long term disability policies or term life policies unless something changes with those policies, you know, we’re not updating those on a regular basis. But this includes things like auto insurance policies, homeowners insurance policies, or umbrella insurance policy, or health insurance policies, long term disability insurance policies, and our term life insurance policies. And we have a couple of different term life policies and long term disability policies. So all of that is included here in section number two. Now, what I have done typically in the electronic version, is I’ll list these out. And then I have the the actual policy hyperlink. So it can be easily reference to get to the actual policy, right, whether that’s a term life, disability, or another type of insurance policy. So that’s section two insurance policies and information.

Section three is estate planning documents. So we have an electronic copy on the Google Drive folder, the shared folder, and then we have a hard copy of these as well, because of the wet signature that’s needed on these and each state is different. Ours is a wet signature with a note notarized copy. So we have a hard copy in the safe at home. So these include our revocable trust agreements, this is our healthcare power of attorney, this is our living will, our last will and testament, et cetera, a lot of work to be done here. Now, if you’re hearing those terms, and thinking, Wow, maybe I need to get my estate planning documents in place. We’re gonna be talking more about that on the podcast, but I would reference you back to Episode 222. We’ll link to that in the show notes, when we brought on a couple of attorneys to talk about why estate planning is such an important part of the financial plan, as well as Episode 310, when Tim Baker and I talked about dusting off the estate plan, so this is not a you set it and you’re done.

Again, most of the work is upfront. Sure, there’s an investment of time and money to get these documents created. Again, the value is in the process of getting these created. And then you’ll have to update these periodically. So Jess and I often joke that our youngest son, Bennett, he wasn’t named individually in our documents when we created the so I guess that’s how it goes right when you’re the fourth son in the family. So he’s represented – it does address future children. But it’s just funny that he’s not called out individually. So we’ve got some updating to do there. So that’s section three – estate planning documents. And again, we keep a hardcopy in the safe. And then we have an electronic version of that available as well.

Section four is car titles. Now I’m not sure how valuable these are based on the current conditions of our minivan and our other vehicle, but, you know, calling these an asset would be a stretch but nonetheless, they have some value. Okay, so we have the car titles, readily available in section four so that someone could quickly sell or transfer the title of the car if need be. That’s section four car titles.

Section five is all documents related to our homeownership, okay, this is the deed on our home. This is the HELOC that we have open in the event, essentially, we have this as a backup emergency fund or if we need to tap into some of the equity in the home. So this is the HELOC documents. This is another copy of our homeowners insurance just to have it all in one place as well. So any important document related to the home, obviously, information about the mortgage, all of that is here in Section Five.

Section six is probably the biggest document I think, or close to the biggest section, which is a summary of all of our financial accounts. It’s our net worth tracking sheet, which I’ve talked about before on this show. And it’s all of our social security statements. Now I was just talking with a group of pharmacists last night that I was presenting to and I was talking about, hey, how many of you have pulled your Social Security statements to see your projected benefits, and I kind of got this impression that it was very few if any, right. So if you haven’t done that, it’s a good action step you’re going to do if you go to ssa.gov, to look at your Social Security statements, it’s got good information on there on projected benefits, and you can see your work credits. It’s pretty cool.

But this is a section where I have a table of contents that explains every account we have, right. So at Ally Bank, we have our high yield savings account, we have our checking account. Here’s where we have our Roth IRAs. Here’s where we have our 401 K’s. Here’s where we have a Roth 401 K. For every single financial account that we have, what is the account name? What is the institution? Where’s the link to that account? And what are we using that account for. And then as I mentioned before, we use One Password to store all of our password information and shared between Jess and I and the master key to that Password account is inside of our lock safe at home. So essentially, in the lock safe, you get to the One Password document through that you can then access all the individual financial accounts.

Now I know I’ve talked about this before, but I really believe in the value and the importance of not only having a good idea of the summary of all of your accounts. But this is a good place to also be tracking your overall net worth and your trajectory of your financial health. Right net worth is your assets what you own minus your liabilities, what you owe. Tom Stanley talks about the importance of tracking your net worth in the book, The Millionaire Next Door, and he talks about those that develop and build wealth over time they think differently, right? What he’s talking about there is that they realized that their income is a good tool. But their income is only a tool if they’re applying that to building their assets and paying down their liabilities, which ultimately is translating into their net worth.

So Jess, and I track our net worth on a monthly basis. It’s a very simple spreadsheet. If you want to see what that spreadsheet looks like I have that in the toolbox, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/toolbox along with a couple of the resources that I use, you can make a copy of that make it your own, very simple- every financial account we have, it’s the value of the asset. It’s the amount of liability assets minus liabilities we track that month over month, I think about that as the 20,000 foot view of kind of where we’re progressing financially, of course, the real work to be done is on a much more granular level. So that’s Section six, summary of financial accounts, net worth tracking sheet, and social security statements.

Section seven is our tax returns, this is our tax returns. On the personal side, this is a tax returns on the business side. So for us that would be the business, Your Financial Pharmacist as well as the business YFP Tax. And then for the property that we own, we have a separate LLC for the property as well. So for any business filings or extensions, or important communications, documentations. Obviously, it’s important to retain your tax records for everyone. But here to have those readily available, as well whether it’s needed in the event of an emergency, or if you’re working with a tax professional or someone you need to reference that information that’s good to have. So that’s section seven tax returns.

Section Eight is all information related to business records. So this is a summary of the business entities, I have a quick summary of what are the different entities and then of course, all of the legal documents, including the incorporation documents, the operating agreements, the buy/sell agreements, really important that you not only have these in place, but you have these readily available and accessible in the event of something happening. So any important document related to the business is there. And then as I mentioned, I kick off this section with a quick summary. So that in the event that someone needs to look at this, they can quickly understand what are the entities, what’s my ownership in the entities, and then what are the important documents within each entity that’s included in the legacy folder.

Section nine is just a miscellaneous section. So this could be utilities information or other information that is not easily fit into one of the other buckets in the first eight sections. Pretty simple. Right? So yeah, it takes time. And I think even recently, when I went through a pretty major update of this, I want to say it took me you know, three, four or five hours just to update documents, things that I had to scan to get electronically and making sure I had the right setup, creating some of the explanation in the summary documents. But not only as I mentioned, is it helpful for whoever is looking at this information? Hopefully that never needs to happen. But it’s also helpful for you as you go through this to identify like, oh, maybe there’s some gaps in here in the financial plan that we could use as an opportunity to make some adjustments or changes as you’re looking at goals for the next year.

So in terms of who has access to this, of course, Jess and I have access. Also, my in-laws have access to this who would in our state planning documents become the caregivers of our boys in the event of an emergency so important for them to have access and awareness of it, as well as our financial planning team at YFP right. So I know that in the tragic instance, if Jess and I were to get in an accident tomorrow, and something terrible would happen, I know that instantly my in-laws, who would be in charge of the boys and I know our financial planning team who would be helping them and making decisions, they have access to all of this information. Now, it doesn’t mean it’d be easy. There probably are still questions, maybe things that I’ve missed or haven’t thought about. But it’s a really, really good start again, gives us peace of mind knowing that we thought through this in great detail.

So in closing, right, simple yet effective, simple, yet effective. And that’s so true for so much of the financial plan. Sometimes we overthink this, we overcomplicate this, yeah, there’s work to be done. There’s professionals to be hired, certainly on the financial planning side, on the estate planning side, on the tax side, but the gathering of documents and information. This seems like a bigger mountain to climb than it actually is. And I think for obvious reasons, right? Who likes to think about, you know, some of these circumstances that might be tragic, where someone would need to access your information. It also might expose areas of the plan really like ah, I don’t really like the progress that we’ve made, we’ve got opportunities to improve. So for those reasons, it seems like a bigger mountain to climb. But I promise you that as you go through the process, it likely is easier than you think. And once you get organized with your information, you’re gonna be walking from that point of confidence, you’re gonna feel prepared in taking action on other parts of your financial plan. If you have questions on this episode, as always, feel free to reach out to us [email protected]. Again, make sure to download the YFP Legacy Folder checklist. As you follow along in this episode, you can get that at yourfinancialpharmacist.com /legacy. Thanks so much for joining this week. We’ll catch you next week. Have a good one.

Tim Ulbrich 17:17

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 349: Your Top 3 Questions Answered by a CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™

Posted on March 7, 2024March 6, 2024 by YFP Media

YFP’s Tim Baker addresses key questions from the community, covering retirement savings, cost of living, and the importance of the nest egg calculation.

Episode Summary

On this week’s episode of the YFP Podcast, host Tim Ulbrich is joined by YFP Co-Founder and Certified Financial Planner, Tim Baker, to dive into some of the most common questions from the YFP community. He covers topics ranging from debt repayment to investing and retirement planning in three key questions:

How much do I need to save in order to retire? How do I determine what is enough?
The intricacies of cost of living and understanding the income you’ll have in retirement.
Why the nest egg calculation is crucial in financial planning.

Our discussion also delves into the pros and cons of paying off low-interest debt, such as student and auto loans, versus investing. Tim Baker also shares the strategies for prioritizing debt repayment, retirement savings, and saving for a house down payment.

In a particularly insightful segment, Tim and Tim tackle a question from a listener with a $200,000 student loan balance, where Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) isn’t an option. Tim Baker shares his perspective on weighing the decision between paying off the loans and pursuing forgiveness over 20-25 years, including the potential tax implications.

Join us as we navigate the complexities of financial planning and empower you to make informed decisions for a secure financial future.

About Today’s Guest

Tim Baker is the Co-Founder and Director of Financial Planning at Your Financial Pharmacist. Founded in 2015, YFP is a fee-only financial planning firm and connects with the YFP community of 12,000+ pharmacy professionals via the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast podcast, blog, website resources and speaking engagements.

Tim attended the United States Military Academy majoring in International Relations and branching Armor. After his military career, he worked as a logistician with a major retailer and a construction company. After much deliberation, Tim decided to make a pivot in his career and joined a small independent financial planning firm in 2012. In 2016, he launched his own financial planning firm Script Financial and in 2019 merged with Your Financial Pharmacist. Tim now lives in Columbus, Ohio with his wife (Shay), two kids (Olivia and Liam), and dog (Benji).

Key Points from the Episode

Debt repayment, investing, and retirement planning.
Retirement savings and investment strategies.
Retirement planning and nest egg calculation.
Retirement planning and the “Nest Egg Exercise” to connect long-term goals with current actions.
Prioritizing debt and investing strategies.
Prioritizing debt payoff vs. investing for financial freedom.
Financial planning and prioritizing goals.
Managing $200,000 in student loans without PSLF.
Student loan debt and financial planning.

Episode Highlights

“I think what, what sometimes happens, Tim, is that we try, we try to do a lot. We try to do a little bit of a lot of things versus a lot of like one or two things. Yeah. So I think working with a planner to help you prioritize is going to be really important.” – Tim Baker

“So I think the best thing, and we we’ve done this a lot, and when we speak, Tim, the best I think way to determine if we’re on track to retire is to do a nest egg nest egg calculation” – Tim Baker

“But I do think that that push and pull between today and tomorrow is really important. So let’s focus on that trip to wherever; let’s focus on the down payment for a real estate property or whatever that is, like those things, I think, have to be part of the plan as well.” – Tim Baker

“The cons of paying off debt, I think, is the opportunity costs of, like, what you might miss in terms of if you were to invest that, especially if the interest rates are really low, and then just kind of just overall money,less money for investments. The pros, I think, of investing, is potentially higher returns, although not guaranteed, compounding growth, potential tax benefits, if you’re putting in things like 401Ks and IRAs.” – Tim Baker

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode 272 – How Much is Enough
YFP Planning – www.yfpplanning.com
YFP+ – yourfinancialpharmacist.com/membership
Subscribe to the YFP Newsletter
YFP Open House on March 14, 2024 at 8:30pm EST – yourfinancialpharmacist.com/openhouse
YFP Disclaimer
Tim Ulbrich on LinkedIn
Tim Baker on LinkedIn

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, YFP Co-Founder, Director of Financial Planning and Certified Financial Planner Tim Baker joins me to answer your top three financial questions. During the show we tackle pros and cons of paying off low interest rate debt versus investing strategies to optimize student loan repayment for those not pursuing Public Service Loan Forgiveness and how to determine how much one needs to save for retirement. Before we jump into the show, I want to make sure that you’re aware of our next YFP Open House that I’m hosting on Thursday, March 14 at 8:30pm. Eastern. If you’re wondering how working one-on-one with a financial planner can help you achieve your financial goals, the best place to begin is by signing up for our open house. You can do so by visiting YourFinancialPharmacist.com/openhouse.

During this open house, we’ll help you gain clarity on your vision for living a rich life and how the financial plan can become the engine for achieving that vision. We’ll also help you determine how much is enough when it comes to retirement planning whether or not you’re on track. I’ll be taking the group through nest egg calculation. You can learn about the nuts and bolts of hiring a financial planner including what to look for different types of planners that are available and why fee-only planning matters.

And finally, we’ll cover an overview of YFP services, including our financial planning, and tax and accounting services. Make sure to sign up to attend live. We won’t be recording this workshop. For those that attend, they’ll receive an interactive workbook as well as a free resource: Where Should My Next Dollar Go? that will help you assess your overall financial well being and provide clarity on how to efficiently deploy cash, avoid overspending and prioritize various goals. Again, you can register for this Open House on Thursday, March 14 at 8:30pm Eastern by visiting YourFinancialPharmacist.com/openhouse. Alright, let’s jump into today’s episode.

Tim Ulbrich 02:04

Hi there, Tim Ulbrich here. Welcome to this week’s episode of the YFP Podcast. I’m excited to welcome Tim Baker back to the mic as we’re gonna put him on the hot seat with some rapid fire Q&A with some of those common questions that we get from our community, including those around debt repayment, investment, and retirement planning. Hey, Tim, it’s been a while since we’ve had you on the show, what’s new, what’s exciting?

Tim Baker 02:24

What’s new? We’re in the throes of tax season. So I’m, we’re busy there. I’m talking to a lot of potential clients coming on board. Baby number three is about a month away, Tim. So we’re preparing for that. I joke we have about 1000 projects that we have to complete before the baby gets here. So you know, kind of maneuver in my my wife’s lifts list here. So but yeah, all good. Thanks. No complaints.

Tim Ulbrich 02:55

Well, we’re excited to jump into these questions. I know it’s a busy season for you, busy season here for YFP as you mentioned in the midst of tax season. And, you know, we’ve been, we’ll talk at the end of this episode about our YFP Plus community, our new community that we’ve been offering now for a few months. And it’s been really exciting to see the questions and the engagement that that group has, and one another jumping in answering those questions. And we wanted to pull three of the most common questions that we get, whether it’s inside of that community, whether it’s, Tim, questions that we get when we’re speaking that come up on repeat. And so they may be variations of these, but you know, common questions around things like hey, how much do I need to have saved for retirement? What are the pros and cons of paying off debt versus investing? That’s probably the most common question that we get. And, you know, what should I do with my student loans? And how can I best optimize the repayment strategy? So let’s jump into these one by one. Tim, the first question that we have is a big one, but how much do I need to save in order to retire? How much is enough? And how do I begin to determine what that number is?

Tim Baker 03:57

Yeah, so I mean, it depends. Just gotta get that out of the way, right. I mean, this is such a multivariable thing. I think it’s just really hard to determine, you know, without a, you know, pretty deep level analysis to be honest Tim, you know, I know, you know, I’ll talk through some rules of thumb here and things like that. But, you know, like I was talking to a couple last night, and, you know, I think the the wife, the pharmacist was, like, you know, I kind of want the same level of comfort in retirement that I have today in terms of like my standard of living and the husband, the spouse, was like, I could live in a tent and be completely content. You know, so like, so like, that’s, that’s a big thing. You know, like if, if what your need is in retirement, you know, you could have enough saved today, Tim, like it’s it really don’t know. So the variables there, some of the variables could be you know, the standard of living the time in retirement. There’s a lot of clients that we work with that like, will say like, Hey, like I don’t know how long I’m going to be around because of my family history. So we, you know, we put that in, in in play, taxes, inflation unexpected, you know, expenses, a lot of that can be medical, even the inability to work so that, you know, a lot of people, when they’re when they’re doing this calculus, they’ll say, Oh, I’ll work till 70. Or I’ll work part time. And the stats say that 40% of the people out there are going to going to stop working earlier than they think that they do. So you know, what I always do, there’s, there’s lots of fancy ways to kind of calculate this. And you know, if you’ve ever heard of Monte Carlo analysis, this is where we, we simulate portfolio returns 1000s of simulations and say, with, you know, X percent probability of success, we typically want, anywhere from 70 to 80% probability of success, you might say, Tim, why not 100%. Typically, if we’re, if we’re lower than, you know, 70%, we’re going to adjust the plan accordingly, in real time to get it to the end of that.

So I think the best thing that and we we’ve done this a lot, and when we speak, Tim, the best I think way to determine if we’re on track to retire is to do a nest egg nest egg calculation. And this was really born out of, Tim, like, back in the day, when I started advising people on their on their, you know, retirement stuff. What I learned from a mentor is we would say, hey, based on your based on these assumptions, you need $3.5 million to retire. And then we would just move on to the next thing. And I would see the, the look in people’s eyes were like, that number just didn’t hit the mark at all, like it was just like, it was kind of equated to like student loans where it’s just like Monopoly money, that doesn’t make any sense to me at all. So what I started to do is I would take that number, and then I would kind of use another time value of money calculation to discount it back to a number. So if you’re the client, Tim, a number for Tim in 2024, that actually is digestible to you, that’s palatable to you that says, okay, like that makes sense. And typically, what we’re doing is that we’re comparing, you know, what you’re putting into your 401 K, your IRAs, what you already have, you know what your allocation is, so we can kind of make some assumptions on performance returns, how long you’re going to work. And then we can say, hey, you’re on track by this amount of dollars per month, or you’re off track by this amount of dollars per month. And obviously, that that hill gets steeper, if we’re off track, the closer that we get to our target. So, to me that that’s a huge thing to actually connect the dots to, like when I ask people like, are they on track? A lot of people say I have no idea or they’ll say, like, I’m using a calculator, that typically is not a great indicator of where they’re at. So, but I think a lot of this goes back to kind of, you know, move the answer forward is like, you know, what do you need, you know. A lot of the estimates, you know, a lot of the estimates will say, you know, a lot of retirement planners will say, hey, you need 70 to 80% of your pre-retirement income in retirement. And that’s typically the reason for that. It’s like, you’re typically saving 20, 30% of your income, pre retirement, like so leading up to the years of retirement. And you’re not doing that in retirement. So, but a lot of that, Tim, also misses the mark, right? Because it’s like, alright, well, if I’m, like, 20-30 years from retirement, what does that even mean to me? Right. But if you take, you know, I did a kind of a, an example here, if you’re making $125,000 today, and you have a 30 year career ahead of you, and you get a 3% cost of living adjustment every year, in 30 years, that equals $303,400.00. Three or three 400.

Tim Ulbrich 08:55

Almost hard to believe, right? When you when you put the numbers on that.

Tim Baker 08:58

Yep, But then if you look back 30 years, like look back at, like, what a total cost of like a house was or like, what the… you know what I mean? Like, so you have to, you know, it’s perspective, right? So, so 30% of that $303 is about $212. So, essentially, what you need is $212 for 30 straight years, so every year $212. And then we had to, you know, account for inflation and things like that.

Tim Ulbrich 09:22

$212,000?

Tim Baker 09:24

$212,000. Right. So you need a portfolio. So if you just do it in simple terms to earn 12 times 30 Like, that’s kind of like, that’s a very, you know, linear way to look at it. But then you have to, you know, factor in things, you know, like variable expenses and things like that. So, what a lot of people will point to which, I don’t love it, because I think it can steer people wrong, but I think at least gets a like a foundation of where to think about this is the 4% rule. So the 4% rule is, you can withdrawal 4% of your savings in the first year retirement adjusted for inflation ever year thereafter, to ensure that your saving, you have enough saved for 30 years. So the way to kind of backwards plan to that is if you multiply your annual retirement expenses, so let’s say you need 40, that let’s say you need $60,000 per year, let’s say 20,000 of that comes from Social Security, then we need $40,000. $40,000 times 25 years, so we’re just doing the 4% inverted is a million dollars, or a million dollars times, you know, point 0.44% is that $40,000. So that’s a way to look at it. But again, like, I don’t know, if that does a great job of, you know, planning for longevity, you know, there’s a lot of there’s a lot of errors in that, you know, in that assumption, but I think it’s a good place to start thinking about this. So, I mean, it’s a, it’s a really big question that has a lot of, you know, at anytime that you look at something over, you know, 2030 years, I guess, if you’re closer to this, maybe maybe the questions a little bit easier to answer, but, you know, looking at expenses, you know, looking at budget, the budget never goes away, you know, people are like ugh budget, you know, scenario analysis, I think all of those things kind of play into this.

Tim Ulbrich 11:10

Again, this is why I love as you mentioned, the the nest egg exercise, you can see the connections that people start to make in that exercise. Now, of course, especially if we’re looking over a long horizon, right, 20-30 years out, or even if it’s 10 years out, like things are going to change, this is not a one and done, you know, type of thing. We’ve got to be looking at it on a regular basis. But when you’re able to take people from that overwhelming shock number, right, 3 million, 4 million, 5 million to as you said, Hey, here’s what we need to be doing this year and actually, this month. Like this is what we need to be doing based on what we have saved, based on a set of assumptions that we obviously have to think through and think about risk tolerance, capacity, all those kinds of things, based on what we choose to assume or not with Social Security, you know, based on what you’re getting through your employer, all these things are going to feed into where we at currently, and what do we need to be doing per month. And, you know, I did this recently, during an Open House that we did in February, I’ll be doing it again, in our next open house coming up on on March 14, again, you can register for that yourfinancialpharmacist.com/openhouse.

And what’s fascinating about that is I can see this come to life, when people start to just see how these numbers are calculated and see the assumptions in place. Because, again, we’re actually making it mean something today, right? When we look at a number per month, we can start to see how that does or doesn’t fit in with the budget, we might not like that number. But we can start to actually work with that. And in fact, sometimes we find out through this exercise that people are over saving, you know, and there’s a conversation to be had there about, hey, how do we feel about it? What other goals are happening? And might we shift around, you know, different priorities? And then you can toggle some of these factors like, Hey, I said, I wanted to retire at 67. But what happens if it’s 62? Or 58? Or, you know, hey, I’d like the work that I’m doing, and I don’t really see myself going from full time did nothing for 30 years. What if I’m working part time and having an income? And these changed things significantly when you look at these calculations.

Tim Baker 13:08

Yeah, I mean, if I do say so myself, I think it’s a great tool. I think it was born out of like the misconnection between that big number in the future and what we’re doing today. And I think to your point, like being able to, like toggle those levers and pull those levers, you know, whether it’s, you know, working longer working less, you know, dialing back things, you know, down up things like I think it’s really cool to see. And to your point, yeah, we’ve had a lot of clients that have definitely, you know, we talk about, you know, living a wealthy life today and will live in a wealthy life tomorrow. Sometimes the calculus shows that they’re really focused on living a wealthy life tomorrow, in spite of today, meaning like, you know, I think it’s rare for a financial planner to say like, Hey, you’re saving too much for retirement. But I do think that that push and pull between today and tomorrow is really important. So like, let’s focus on that trip to wherever let’s focus on you know, that, you know, down payment for a real estate property or whatever that is, like the like those things, I think, have to be part of the, of the plan as well. So yeah, it’s a great question to ask. It’s just really hard to, to to answer without, you know, a lot of detail. A lot of, you know, what’s the balance sheet look like? What are the goals and, you know, go on from there.

Tim Ulbrich 13:14

It is.

Tim Ulbrich 14:34

If listeners want to dig deeper on this topic, first love to have you join us at the Open House. Second, we’ve covered this as a stand alone topic on the episode on the podcast before Episode 272. Tim and I talked about how much is enough and how do you determine that. We’ll link to that to the show notes. Make sure to check out that episode as well. Our second question we have as I mentioned before, probably the most common question that I get when I’m presenting is Hey, what are the pros and cons of paying off low interest debt, such as a student loan or auto loan versus investing. Furthermore, how do you think about prioritizing strategies for paying down debt, saving for retirement and saving for a house down payment? Tim, I’ll add to this before you jump in here that this is a really common question that we see, especially among, you know, those within that first 10 years of graduation, right. They’ve got a lot of things that are coming at them. I’ve got, you know, a bunch of student loans, I’m looking at buying a home, you’re telling me that I should be investing in saving for the future? I need an emergency fund. How do I begin to prioritize and weigh all these things? And, again, before you say, it depends, like, I think this is an example question where the value of planning is so important, because we got to get all those things out of our head on the paper, so we can start to plan. So what are your thoughts here?

Tim Baker 15:46

Yeah, I mean, I always look at debt as like a spectrum. I think you have, you know, good debt, which, you know, I would I would categorize as, like a mortgage. I would still put student loan debt in there, because, you know, a mortgage is a, you know, typically appreciating an asset that you can, that you’re living in, raise a family. Student loans, typically, you know, the price of doing business to become a pharmacist, you know, higher levels of of income, you know, post degree. But then as you go like, like auto loans, again, again, these are used assets that are typically depreciating. You’re typically paying higher interest than you have in the past, but it serves a function of like getting you to work. But then as you go, it might be things like, debt for furniture or other types of personal loans. And then credit card debt is typically at that, you know, other end of the spectrum of bad debt, where it’s, you know, you’re typically, this is the purchase of of wants not necessarily needs, or, you know, it’s there because of a lack of an emergency fund or kind of planning, planning for those unexpected things. So, you know, I think like, where you sit, where you draw the line between good debt and bad debt, it’s going to different be different for everybody. You know, typically, it’s, it’s the car to the right is good debt. So car, student loans, mortgages, are okay. And then everything for the left is not. Some people will put cars like a bad debt. So I think it just depends on what your again, what your goals are, what your what your aspect of debt. You know, I was asked recently by a prospective client about like, you know, hey, was watching something that Dave Ramsey said about paying off, you know, a mortgage that’s less than 3%. And he’s very, paints with a broad brush and said, like, you know, really any debt, you’re kind of a slave to the master is kind of how he describes it. And I think like, there’s a psychological thing of this, like, if you if you feel like that debt, is preventing you to be financially free, that I would treat that differently than something else, you know, like, I have no qualms about sitting on my two and a half percent mortgage for 30 years, I just don’t. So I think if we look at this, like the pros of paying off debt, versus invest in, you know, the paying off debt, it’s a guaranteed return, right? So if your debt is 6%, that’s, you know, you’re not necessarily gonna get that in the market consistently. So it’s a guaranteed return. I think it reduces financial stress. So eliminating debt can reduce stress and kind of simplify your finances. You do, I think, if you are completely debt free, I think you can you operate differently, you think you look at the world a little bit differently than if you have, you know, multiple liabilities. That’s kind of, you know, weighing on you and we see this with student loans, Tim, right. Like, you know, I feel suffocated, because I have this $200,000 in debt. The cons of paying off debt, I think, is the opportunity costs of like, what you might miss in terms of like, if you were to invest that, you know, especially if the interest rates are really low, and then just kind of just overall money, you know, less money for investments. The pros, I think of investing is potentially higher returns, although not guaranteed, compounding growth, potential tax benefits, if you’re putting in things like 401Ks and IRAs, The cons are again, market risk, there’s no guarantee. And, you know, complexity, like you know, if you’re just paying off debt, you know, a lot of people will make investing more interesting or sexier than it needs to be I look at as an as an investment as it should be super boring, but not everyone does that. A lot of people don’t do that. So that’s, that’s kind of my, there is no right or wrong answer. I kind of have my own biases.

When I’m working with a client, I’ll look at their risk tolerance. I’ll look at what their goals are. I’ll look at like, what are they saying to me? If they’re saying things like, this debt keeps me up at night, I’m gonna treat that very differently than if someone’s like, yeah, like it’s whatever. But there is a mathematical component to that as well. In terms of prioritize and financial strategies or just get the financial, like, what do we do, you know, for paying down debt versus saving, you know, I was speaking to, you know, a prospective client the other day, and they have real estate, they have some investments, they have a brokerage account, no emergency fund. So like, we’re we’re doing steps, six, seven, and eight, before we’re doing step one, really. So building an emergency fund, having a high yield savings account with, you know, those non-discretionary, you think expensives, just stowed away. Super important. That’s, that’s a foundational thing. I think from there, it’s also like the consumer debt, so like credit cards, you know, furniture debt, whatever that looks like, I think is really important, because it’s typically higher nterest that you want to get get out from underneath.

I would also put taken advantage of the employer match up there, like, you know, most of the time, I think that is really, really important to get the free money. But still see people that don’t take advantage of that. And then I think looking at higher interest debt, paying that off. So, you know, maybe that is a car, you know, we’re seeing, you know, car rates, I think you you mentioned it in YFP plus community, just what those rate rates are. Shocking, you know, they’re high. So I assume, yeah, I would I, I would pay that off before I would go into the market. So I think that that to me, and again, like the one thing that the questioner asked, you know, it’s like, what about saving for retirement, again, I kind of look at, get the match. And then I look at it as that as you are navigating these other things to me, in the back of your mind, it should be a race to 10%. Like, get the match, which may be 5%. But then you really want to get to 10% as quickly as possible, and then assess from there. And then I think, like, to me saving for a house down payment. That’s a really tough one to prioritize, Tim, because oftentimes with this one, like, like you’re, you, you rationalize it, you know, you rationalize your decision. So like, it’s a super emotional decision, once you start going down the path of looking at houses, being a Zillow warrior, actually go into houses, like those timelines get cut overnight. And I always joke, like, I was talking to a prospective client. And they were like, Yeah, I want to buy a house in the next two or three years. And I talked to them two weeks later, and they were under contract. So to me, like, if that’s important for you, I would put that to the top, you know, put that at the top of the list, you know, and prioritize that. I think what, what sometimes happens, Tim, is that we try, we try to do a lot. We try to do a little bit of a lot of things versus a lot of like one or two things. Yeah. So I think working with a planner to help you prioritize is going to be really important. And it’s hard to do. Sometimes it’s hard to do that when you’re stuck inside your own head, or even with like a spouse. So sometimes that you know that that third party objective viewpoint to help you guide guide that conversation, I think is important. But again, there’s really no right or wrong answer here. It’s just tailoring to like when I say it depends. What I mean by that is, you know, it depends on what your balance sheet are, like, what your balance sheet looks like, and what your goals are. And unfortunately, you can’t like look at a neighbor or a colleague, because like you’re going to be different. You are a unique snowflake. So you know, your your experience, your life experience, your your finances are going to be different than than everybody else’s. And I think, you know, developing a plan that navigates that is super important.

Tim Ulbrich 22:39

Yeah, Tim, the visual that comes to mind, as you’re talking and I alluded to this, when I asked the question is, you know, we so often live with all of these competing priorities that are swirling in our minds, right? Guilty as charged. And it really is a step that often is hard work. But it’s really important because we’re a third party can be so helpful for us to kind of get out of our own way and make sure we’re looking at all the factors, making sure we’re not thinking of things in a silo. But it’s like, we got to put all the puzzle pieces out, we got to get them out of the box. So we can start to figure out how they actually come together. And then to implement the plan, looking at our cash flow, looking at our goals and things to actually begin to execute on that. But we tend to go into execution mode, without really considering all the pieces and parts and how they impact one another. And this sounds easy, but it’s not right. You know, in this question, you know, we’re thinking about paying down debt, you know, and that could be more than one type of debt. We’re thinking about, hey, when might we buy a home we think about saving for retirement, when you look at the percentage of take home pay that these things will take up it is huge. These are these are big decisions. And we’re not even talking about other types of goals, right vacation, travel, what else is going on the financial plan, so I feel like there’s such an important step here of, before you start running in any one direction. Hey, let’s get on with This down on the paper. You know, you did this for Jess and I back in the day, like, let’s create a prioritized list of these. What’s the target? What’s the goal? How much do we need? What priority, how much per month? And then we start to actually create the buckets and the mechanism and the thing to actually make these come to life. And when you’re doing that, and you’re automating that, I can’t even adequately describe the feelings that come when you know that that system is in place working for you.

Tim Baker 25:26

Yeah and I think like to go back to the first question, like, we’ve had conversations with clients that like, you know, they’re saving so much for retirement, and they’re like, we can actually do a little bit less than get into the house sooner. Right. So like, like, if you think about it, like, my, my Pop Pop back in the day, like he had a pension, there was no such thing as 401k is like, all of these other things that have like, like, made financial, you know, even my parents, like, it’s very different. Now, you go into the workforce, and you have 30,000 things that are like, like, vying for your attention and your your dollars. And it’s just different than what it was before. And now, like the onus, especially on retirement is up to you versus like, your employer. But it’s also like, a lot of the advice that that you’re getting is from, like, the old generation of like, hey, buy a house, make sure you’re saving for it, and those are all good things. But the world is different now. And I’m not saying that, like, that’s, that’s bad, that’s bad advice. But like, you got to kind of have to, like, you know, walk to your own tune, so to speak. And I think like, a lot of people get get anxiety because they’re like, I’m not like, I’m not doing enough here. I’m not doing enough here. And, you know, I think like, if you’re doing a plan, you’re doing enough, right.

And I think part of the part of the great thing about plan is that you are slowing down in the day to day of like busy living and objectively looking at your situation and reflecting, self reflecting or forcing to reflect of like, Hey, are we on the track that we’re supposed to be on. And also to like, celebrate the wins, like, you know, when we start with a client, you know, the the first two meetings that we go through is what we call Get Organized, where we’re building out a nice clean balance sheet of all the assets that we own, minus all the liabilities that we owe. That’s our first data points. Think of that as like the before picture. And then the second meeting is what we call Script Your Plan is all about, okay, now that we know where we’re at, where are we going, so let’s talk about you want to buy a house, you want to have a family, you want to be able to retire at this age, you want to be able to, you know, build your real estate empire, you want to be able to do XY and Z. And once we have those two foundational thing in place, the answer “it depends,” then transforms to this is what I think you should do because I know what your balance sheet looks like, I know what your goals are. And this is the you know, the the objective advice that we think is in your best interest. So like, that’s going to be different for everyone. And I think like that, you know, tracking that from data point one to three, you know, two years, three years in the future, we start to see quantifiably the benefit, we think, you know, net worth is the best measure of that, the benefit from a net worth perspective, but then also the qualitative benefits of like, wow, like, I took that trip, I am spending more time with my family, like we had a family sooner than I thought, we bought the house. You know, I thought it was gonna take us five years, we did it live in less time. So to me, those are the benefits of, of, again, working on a plan, working with a planner to help prioritize all these things, right?

Because, you know, we talked about this in the in the tax world, we feel that working with one of our CFPs and a CPA side by side and stacking years of intentional financial planning and intentional tax planning will get you to where you need to, you know, be quicker. But you know, I was working, I was working, talking to one of our planning clients that’s considering tax, and they have a tax person, but they’re just you know, and it’s a question of filing separately and filing jointly. They’re just looking at it from the perspective of tax. They’re not thinking about how that affects how the filing status affects the student loan payment. So to me, you can’t look at these things in a vacuum. They they’re all interconnected. And I think as you go, that becomes, you know, more true and more obvious. So, again, I’m biased though, right?

Tim Ulbrich 29:33

It’s great stuff. And that’s why I’m glad you brought up the quantitative, qualitative stuff because yes, it translates into actual dollars and cents net worth is the indicator that we’re, you know, looking at most assets, what you own minus liabilities what you owe, but it’s also is the qualitative stuff, are we achieving that living a rich life and also as I alluded to, just the mental clarity and the peace of mind that comes from like, I know that I’ve thought about these or I know that me and my partner or spouse I thought about these together. And we have a plan like targeted dollar amount to that. But that really is incredible. And for folks that want to learn more about our one-on-one financial planning service, you can go to YFPplanning.com. Let’s have a conversation with you to learn more about that service, learn more about what you have going on in your own individual plan and see whether or not that service is a good fit again, YFPplanning.com. From there, you can click on the link to book a free discovery call. Alright, Tim, question number three. If PSLF, Public Service Loan Forgiveness, is not an option for me, what should I do with $200,000 of student loans? How do I wait paying them off versus pursuing 20 to 25 years of forgiveness, which would then result in what we call what others call the tax bomb? So what are your thoughts here?

Tim Baker 30:49

Yeah, and again, forgive the continued commercial, Tim, but like, I think when you’re dealing with six figures worth of debt $200,000, I do think some type of an analysis is really important, especially with like, the moving goal posts, that are the student loan repayment plans, and then the strategies that are out there. So I think, you know, this is a math equation that comes from the analysis, but I think you have to also overlay how you feel about the debt, right? So again, if you’re like, like, I need to get through this, like, ASAP, like, it’s a weight on me versus like, it is what it is, I think that with the math equation is going to color how like, I would advise you as your planner. So I would say back in the day, you know, when we would look at a potentially non PSLF, you know, strategy. So, just to remind everyone PSLF, you know, was implemented in 2007. And the so that means that, you know, the first the first time someone was able to be forgiven was 2017. So you had to, you had to work, you had your loans had to be federal, you had to be in the right type of a repayment plan, you had to work for a non-profits 501C3, the government. You paid, you know, 10 years worth of payments didn’t have to be consecutive, and then you were forgiven tax free. You can, you’re eligible for forgiveness, you’re still eligible forgiveness outside of PSLF, we call it non PSLF. The, it’s a little bit different, you still have to have the right loans and the right plan, it doesn’t matter who you work for. So you can work for a for-profit. But instead of paying it for 10 years, you are paying it for 20 or 25 years of their graduate loans. And then that forgiveness amount is taxable in the year forgiveness, whereas PSLF, it’s a tax free event. So in before, you know, the new, the new plan, the save plan, typically the calculus was if your debt to income ratio was higher than two to one. So meaning I made 100,000 and I had $300,000 in debt, my debt to income ratio was three to one in that case, then a non-PSLF strategy was on the table. Because by the time we looked at $300,000, and a standard or even a refi, by the time we looked at that compared to a an income driven plan, plus, you know, a couple $100, or whatever that was invested for a tax bomb, what you paid per month, and what you paid in total was less than what you would pay in standard.

Now with the save plan and the payments a little bit different that it’s it’s it’s changed a little bit. So I would say that, you know, and the other thing that’s changed, too, Tim, is that, you know, we’re, if if we were looking at non-PSLF, we were also looking at like, typically a refi. So like if we, if our rates were 6% Wait it, you know, you might be able to go out. And for the same 10 year, find a 4.5% or 5%. So you’d get a little bit of a better rate. That’s changed too, right. So now what we’re having a way is a non peel PSLF strategy, versus staying in the federal system with potentially a better interest rate, but meet just maybe keeping the standard, you know, the standard plan. So if you have $200,000 in debt, the standard plan is going to be $2,171 for 10 years. So I think the play here is potentially looking at a refi which I don’t know if you’re necessarily going to be you know, I would look at a 10 year if you can go a little bit more aggressive seven year, five year. But your your, you know, your your payments going to go up accordingly. So, again, the goalposts have changed a little bit here. You know, I would say that, you know, I would say that probably a non-PSLF strategy here if I’m assuming you’re making $125, $130, is probably not the way to go. So probably something in the standard, maybe even being more aggressive in the standard or, again, looking at refis if rates come down, you know. I’m not sure what the 10 year if you do an apples to apples, but there are some benefit, there are still benefits to staying in the federal that I wouldn’t want there to be a pretty, pretty significant interest rate decrease for me to move off into a private loan. And that’s irreversible. So before Tammy, we would just say, Hey, this is kind of the rules of thumb, this is the way to look at it. But it’s a lot different because of the new save plan, the interest rates, etc. You know, so that’s basically where we’re at today.

Tim Ulbrich 35:35

Yeah, I think as you pointed out, the income of this individual is a really important piece of information we don’t have, right because if they’re making $180k, versus they’re making $95k, that’s going to impact that debt to income ratio. And to your point with the new save plan, that ratio, in effect has gotten more favorable. What I mean by that, is because of the change in the plan, the debt to income threshold could potentially be lower and it might make sense to pursue a non PSLF pathway. And, you know, let’s zoom back out, right? We’ve been kind of preaching on not not getting into the silos have to decisions, when you’re talking about hey, do we go more aggressive? Do we not that gets back to conversations about cash flow? What does the budget actually support? What other goals are in mind? You know, are we someone who graduated in their mid to late 20s? Or is this someone that pharmacy’s a second career, and they’re behind on investing in retirement – all of those things, just a few examples are going to impact, right, what decision we make with the student loans and how it ties into other decisions that are happening in the financial plan. So, Tim, great stuff.

These are just a few of the types of questions and conversations that we are seeing inside of our new online community called YFP Plus if you’re not already familiar with YFP Plus, we’d love to have you check out that community. Inside you’ll find exclusive on demand courses, We’ve got weekly live events, we have monthly themes and challenges. So for example, this past month in February, we were talking all about preparing for Uncle Sam and taxes bringing in Sean our CPA into the community. For the month of March, it’s all about FIRE: Financial Independence, Retire Early. We’ve got several events lined up throughout the month, the space to ask questions of our financial planners and our tax professionals and to be in a community of other like minded individuals. It’s really an incredible community. We hope you’ll check it out and use our 30 day free trial to determine whether or not it’s a good long term fit for you. You can do that by going to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/membership to get more information on YFP Plus. Again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/membership. Thanks so much for joining us. We’ll see you next week. Take care.

Tim Ulbrich 37:37

[DISCLAIMER]

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 346: Developing a Budget That Works…And You Don’t Hate with Tim Ulbrich

Posted on February 15, 2024February 14, 2024 by YFP Media

Tim Ulbrich shares the importance of setting a budget for achieving your financial goals and five steps to help you get started.

Episode Summary

In this week’s episode, we learn all about one of the key first steps to mastering your money: creating a budget. You’ll learn how to implement a budgeting system that not only works, but is also enjoyable. Tim Ulbrich, YFP Founder and CEO shares a practical five-step process to help you get started. A budget isn’t a restrictive tool, but an important instrument that can empower you on your journey toward financial well-being and help align your money with your vision for a rich and fulfilling life.

About Today’s Guest

Tim received his Doctor of Pharmacy degree from Ohio Northern University and completed postgraduate residency training at The Ohio State University. He spent 9 years on faculty at Northeast Ohio Medical University prior to joining Ohio StateUniversity College of Pharmacy in 2019 as Clinical Professor and Director of the Master’s in Health-System Pharmacy Administration Program.

Tim is the host of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast which has more than 1 million downloads. Tim is also the co-author of Seven Figure Pharmacist: How to Maximize Your Income, Eliminate Debt and Create Wealth. Tim has presented to over 200 pharmacy associations, colleges, and groups on various personal finance topics including debt management, investing, retirement planning, and financial well-being.

Key Points from the Episode

Budgeting for financial freedom. [0:00]
Pharmacist financial success and budgeting. [3:51]
Financial health check and budgeting. [7:32]
Setting a financial vision and budget. [11:40]
Budgeting methods for personal finance. [16:04]
Budgeting and financial planning. [20:54]
Budgeting and financial planning for pharmacists. [26:06]

Episode Highlights

“So I think it’s safe to say that most pharmacists didn’t spend six to eight plus years training to get into this profession, to work hard to find themselves living paycheck to paycheck.” – Tim Ulbrich

“So, if we can identify in advance what our goals are, and we can identify how much we have to allocate towards those goals, then the next step we’ll talk about is how to actually make sure we distribute them accordingly. All the sudden, we’re thinking in a way that we are pre funding our goals, right really important, rather than waiting to see what’s left over at the end of the month.” -Tim Ulbrich

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, I’m digging into how you can develop a budgeting system and process that works and is one that you don’t hate. During the episode, we’re walking through five steps that you can follow to implement your own budget. But before doing that, we’ll discuss why it’s crucial to do a financial vitals check along with some vision setting to get clear on what it looks like to be living your rich life.

Tim Ulbrich 00:32

Alright, YFP community, I’m really excited to invite you to our next webinar on March 7, at 8:30pm/Eastern: Budgeting Blueprint, What Zero Based Budgeting Is, Why It Works and How to Start One. This webinar is different than webinars we’ve done before. Not only am I gonna dive into the ins and outs of the zero based budget and the power behind assigning each dollar a job, but I’m going to be doing a live demo of a zero based budget using the YFP budget template. And we’re going to be anonymously featuring real pharmacists’ budgets for you to see. So here’s the deal. First, I want you to register for the webinar. It’s free, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budgetwebinar to save your seat. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budgetwebinar. Second, we’re gonna be giving away three $50 amazon gift cards to pharmacists who submit their budget to be featured and who attend the webinar live. Here’s how you can do that: you go to download your FREE zero based budgeting template at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budget again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budget, then go ahead and fill out your budget with your numbers. If you’ve never used a zero based budget before, don’t worry instructions are included in the template that will help you walk through the process. Make sure to save your budget, send us an email with that budget attached at [email protected]. And make sure to include the word “budget” in the subject line so we can quickly identify your template. In the email, I would love for you to also share any additional information that would be helpful for me to know, whether you’re a single income earner, whether you have dual incomes in the household, if you have any children, where you live. And of course, if you have any other questions that you’d like me to answer as it relates to your budget template. Then make sure to attend the webinar live for your chance to win one of the three $50 amazon gift cards. If you don’t want to turn your budget, no problem make sure to register for the webinar and we’ll send you the replay if you can’t join us live. Can’t wait to see you there and see the real life budgets from pharmacists in the YFP community.

Tim Ulbrich 02:37

Hi guys, Tim Ulbrich here. This week, we’re gonna be talking all about how to develop a budgeting system that works and hopefully is one that you don’t hate. Now if we’re being honest with ourselves, who gets a little nauseous when the topic of budgeting comes up? I mean, besides the future financial nerds out there, not many are a fan of the whole budgeting thing. Quote, “It takes too much time.” “I already know how much I spend.” “I don’t know how to make one and follow it.” “I’m afraid of what I might find when I track my expenses.” “I don’t like to be so restricted.” “I make enough money so I don’t need a budget.” These are just some of the most common reasons that I hear for all of the hate surrounding budgeting. So in that light, what if we thought of the budget instead as a mechanism by which we achieve our financial goals? It’s simply the roadmap. It’s the execution plan that we have for the vision for living our rich life. It’s the way that we’re going to achieve what we set out to achieve. Now what are the most common things I hear pharmacists say is, “Tim, I make a great income. But I don’t feel like I’m progressing financially.” And one of the greatest threats to a pharmacist long term financial success is believing that a six figure income equals financial success. That mindset I can guarantee you will hinder progress. And here’s why if you take the average pharmacists salary, a reasonable take home pay after taxes after health insurance premiums after any type of employer retirement contribution is about $7,000 per month, right, give or take. And if you assume the average student loan debt on a 10 year standard repayment, plus let’s just say a $400,000 home and interest rates today that adds up to about $4,500 per month or 65% of a pharmacist take home pay. Let me say that again. Between the average student loan debt and a $400,000. home on a 30 year mortgage. Right. I know some people live in higher cost living areas, some people live in lower cost of living areas. That adds up to about $4,500 per month of committed expenses or looking at it another way about 65% of that take home pay number that I just mentioned. That means we have about $2500 left each month for everything else, right all the other home related costs, property taxes, homeowners insurance, upkeep, of course food, clothing, car payments, gas, other debt payments, insurance premiums, additional savings, and not to be forgotten the more enjoyable discretionary expenses like vacation, experiences, eating out, giving, and so forth. So I think it’s safe to say that most pharmacists didn’t spend six to eight plus years training to get into this profession, to work hard to find themselves living paycheck to paycheck. Now, obviously, some pharmacist households have more than one income, so we have to factor that in. But regardless, we can see that the take home pay of a pharmacist only goes so far. And that’s why it’s critical that we shift the mindset that pharmacists make a great income. Yes, it’s a good income, one that is more than $50,000 higher per year than the average household income in the United States. So it’s a good income, objectively speaking. And so it’s a tool and it’s a pretty good one at that. But without a plan, it is going to have significant limits. So shifting your mindset around how much you make, and how far that income will go is the most important thing that you can do for your financial plan. Why? Because everything else will flow from that mindset, how you save, big purchase decisions, how you handle your debt, ideas for growing your income, and so on. So with that in mind, with the plan that we need to have one, right, we need to have some direction to make sure that we’re achieving our long term goals.

Let’s talk to you five steps to developing and automating a budget that works and hopefully is one that you don’t hate. Step number one is we have to do a financial vital check. Alright, before we get into the vision, before we get into the budget, we have to assess where we are at today. And sometimes this is painful. Sometimes this is exciting, right? Depending on the progress that we’ve made thus far. We need to really honestly assess are we on track? Are we ahead? Are we behind? And what does that even mean? And we don’t want to start running forward until we know where we’re at. And we want to find out what path we want to be running on. And a great starting point, certainly not the only place to be but a great starting point for the financial binos check is to really be tracking your net worth on a regular basis. Now, if you’ve been listening to the show, you’ve heard me talk about net worth many times before. Net worth is simply your assets or what you own, minus your liabilities or what you owe. And as I’ve shared often in my journey, paying off $200,000 of student loan debt and coming out of a significant amount of debt really into a period of trying to grow that net worth. This was a significant part of our journey, really shifting that mindset from income to being a tool, right income not being the end all to really being able to move that income to growing assets, paying down liabilities, and therefore growing net worth.

Now Dr. Tom Stanley in the book, The Millionaire Next Door, which if you haven’t read before, I’d highly recommend it. He says that one of the reasons that millionaires are economically successful is that they think differently. One of the reasons that millionaires are economically successful is that they think differently. And part of what he’s talking about here is this concept of income versus net worth . They recognize that income is a tool, but income by itself does not mean financial success. Now, what should be our net worth? Right? That’s an interesting question, what should be our net worth? And of course the answer that is it depends. But Dr. Tom Stanley in the book, The Millionaire Next Door gives us a calculation for expected net worth. And he says that your expected net worth is your age times your gross annual income divided by 10.

For example, if we had a 45 year old pharmacists making $140,000 per year, if we took 45 as their age, we multiplied it by $140,000 of income, we divide that by 10. That’s $630,000 would be their expected net worth for that 45 year old pharmacist making $140,000. Now in addition to net worth, that’s just one calculation. We certainly don’t want to hang our hat on that. There are other areas inside of this financial vitals check that we should be thinking about. Things like, where are we at with the emergency fund? Is that a box you’ve already checked? Is that something we need to focus on? Perhaps you looked at that several years ago, and now we need to update that because expenses have gone up. So where are we at with the emergency fund? That’s one part. Do we have revolving credit card debt? If so, typically, because of where those interest rates are we going to focus on that before we look at other parts of the plan. Have we landed on, for those that have student loans, have we landed on an optimized student loan repayment strategy? Critically important, many different pathways we can go. We know that certain strategies can be more advantageous than others in terms of cash flow, what we pay out of pocket, potentially forgiveness. So have you critically evaluated your loan repayment strategy? Other areas of the financial vitals check are we set with things like own occupation, Long Term Disability Insurance, or for those that need life insurance, we have a good term life insurance policy that’s going to cover the needs that we have, are we on track with retirement savings? Right?

We’ve talked about all these topics on the show before these areas, why it’s important to start here with the financial vitals check is all of these areas are going to potentially impact cash flow, and give us insight into where we want to prioritize and focus with the budget because you’ll see here in a moment, then we talk about how to execute on the budget. One of the things we need to know is what are the goals that we want to include in our budget? What are we focusing on? What are we prioritizing on in doing this vitals check is going to help us in part, identify what those areas are. Now if you want more information on this concept of financial vitals checking, you want to do your own financial vitals check, we have a neat tool available for free. If you go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/financial-fitness-test. That’s our financial fitness test, again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/financial-fitness-test that will take you to a quick interactive tool, and it’ll help you identify what some of these areas are to focus on. Again, we’ll link a link to that in the show notes. So that’s step one, doing the financial vital check.

Tim Ulbrich 11:40

Step number two, again, we’re not even in the budget yet, right? Step number two is setting the vision. I firmly believe, we firmly believe, that without a compelling vision, the budget will feel restrictive, right. Without a compelling vision, the budget will feel restrictive. And I can almost guarantee you as well that you will run out of gas at some point in time, if you don’t have a compelling vision, only to find yourself and the whiplash between, in and out of being intentional with your finances. Like we tend to approach other areas of our life, right, such as fitness, such as our diet, and so forth. If we have a compelling vision, think of that as the engine for the financial plan, especially if you are in a season of grinding it out or cutting back, which hopefully is temporary. But especially in those seasons, we want to have a very compelling vision that’s going to drive us forward and keep us motivated. So first things first, what does your rich life look like? What does your, keyword there, your rich life look like? I love this quote quote from Roy Bennett. He says, “Dream your own dreams achieve your own goals. Your journey is your own and unique.” That’s so important here, when we think about setting the vision for living a rich life. When we talk about our financial plan and our goals. It’s so easy to get caught up into what are other people doing or the comparison game. What does it mean for your family to be living a rich life. If we can get clear on that -something we’ve talked about on this show before – that’s gonna help us really have a strong plan when it comes to how we’re not only going to implement the budget, but how we’re also going to be able to achieve other financial goals like long term savings, and retirement. Don’t underestimate this step. Step number two, setting the vision think of this really as the window in which we’re looking through as we’re making any of the individual financial decisions.

Tim Ulbrich 13:44

Alright, step number three, is I want you to track back your spending 90 days. So before we get into the spreadsheets, before we start to set the budget going forward, I want you to track back you’re spending 90 days right? This is the audit of the expenses to identify how have we been spending our money before we set what the goal is going forward. Now, this is really easy to do. Thankfully, in 2024. Many banks, many tools, software options that are out there, that we can quickly pull statements from credit cards, from debit cards, from various accounts, and be able to aggregate these and many of them even automatically will categorize them for you. Sometimes you gotta clean that up. But this is a process that we think is really important before we set the plan going forward. Now 90 days, I believe is an important window of time, because in any given month, right in any 30 day period, we can have some anomalies with the budget that might not be “normal.”, right to the month that we would have throughout the year. And so 90 days is going to help to average that out a little bit. That’s one of the reasons we want to look back 90 days but also by looking back 90 days we’re going to start to identify some patterns of things that we might want to adjust or at least be aware of as we set the budget and plan going forward. So that’s step number three is we’re going to track back 90 days categorize those expenses, really look at what is our spending patterns, what’s the spending behaviors? And there, we’re going to quickly identify what’s the difference between our expenses, and what’s the differences between our take home pay, right, and that’s going to help us identify what we have to work with for the budget.

Tim Ulbrich 15:21

Alright, step number four is then actually setting the budget. Now, this is intentional that we don’t start here, right, I firmly believe from experience from working with many pharmacists on this that if we start with a budget, we tend to lose that momentum that I’ve been talking about. And especially if we have two people that are working on this together, where maybe they’re not on the same page financially, we want to first get clear on the vision, right? If we can have the shared dreams, the shared vision, I’ll never say the budgeting process is easy. But it’s more palatable when we’re working then from that mindset where, okay, now the budget is simply the execution of the vision that we’ve agreed upon. Right. So we don’t want to start here with a budget.

Of course, there are many ways to budget, some of you might be familiar with budgeting methods, such as the 50,30, 20 budget, which is about 50% of your expenses should be for essential, or excuse me, 50% of your income for essential expenses, about 30% of your income for discretionary expenses, those are the things that are the nice to haves, but we could cut them if we needed to cut them, and then about 20%, that’s going to go towards savings or investments. So there’s different models and frameworks of that. But many of you may be aware of something like that. There’s also budgeting methods that are known as like the no budget budget, which simply means that you identify, you know, what are those critical expenses that you have to fund each month, and then you just don’t overspend your income beyond that, right. And so that’s a method that we see people that are a little bit further in their career, that have a more significant rhythm and cadence to what they’ve been doing over a long period of time. They have a good handle on their expenses and their goals and whether or not they’re on track, that might be something that they’re not tracking in such a granular way. Okay, so lots of different ways to budget I’m going to focus though not on the 50-30-20 budget, not on the no budget budget, I’m gonna focus on the zero based budget, because I believe that while this isn’t for everyone, I believe that for many people that are trying to get either on track, let’s say you’re just getting started in your career, and you’re trying to develop a system that makes sure you’re setting yourself up for a good long term plan and that you have a good foundation, I think this is a great way to get started. And then you can pull back over time, or for those listening saying, hey, maybe you need to get back on track, or I’ve kind of lost my way. And I want to have a season of really getting refocused. I think the zero based budget method can be a way to do that.

Now, as a reminder, if you want to download the YFP budget template, so you can work along side as you’re listening, hopefully, you’re not driving as you’re doing this, you can go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budget to get that Excel template for free. Okay, so inside of this step of the zero based budget, I’m gonna walk you through five steps of how to complete the zero based budget. Step number one is you have to know your take home pay. Now, as obvious as that sounds, this can be challenging sometimes, right, especially for folks that are just getting started. You know, I see this often from a transition where someone’s going from student to resident or student to fellow and then they’re going into the first job, right? There’s that change that’s happening, or individuals that are going from one income to two incomes in the household, that certainly can be a season of change as well, or for those those seen that variable income. Right? Whether that be you know, side hustle income, additional income, or you don’t work consistent salary types of positions. This can be sometimes challenging, but we have to know on average per month, and for those of you that have variable income, we want to be conservative in this estimate. We have to know on average per month, what is our take home pay, right? This is the amount that you’ll be working with each month to cover your expenses and to put to work to achieve your financial goals. The take home pay or net pay is the amount that shows up on your paycheck, every pay period after taxes after health care insurance premiums that you pay after any retirement contributions and any other deductions that are withdrawn from your base pay or your gross pay. Okay, so for students, any students that are listening, right, this could also potentially include things like student loan disbursement money, plus any earned income that you would have in internships and so forth. So that’s step number one is that we have to determine our take home pay.

Step number two is we then want to account for and subtract our necessary or essential expenses. Now, the definition of necessary can be debated but for the purpose of this activity, let’s include the following as necessary or essential expenses. These would be things like housing, transportation, food, utilities, insurance premiums -if that’s applicable-and any minimum payments on your debts that you need to make. Now in this step, consider your food expense as what you need as an essential right, anything else that would be dining out, we’re going to include in discretionary in step number three in this budgeting exercise. Okay, so that’s step number two is we account for all of our essential or necessary expenses. And we’re working down from our take home pay.

Step number three, then is we’re going to determine how much we spend on discretionary expenses. Think of discretionary expenses as the nice to haves, but in a true financial emergency, they could be cut, if you needed to cut them, right, these would be things like eating out, you know, trips, extra trips, or shopping, extra payments on debt, clothing, expenses, beyond the minimum, you know, housing upgrades, and so forth. Right, it’s very easy to justify any one of these as essential. So it’s important here to be honest with ourselves, when evaluating this category. If you have no idea how much you spend on these types of expenses in a month, a good place to start is to review these from again, as we did earlier, looking back 90 days to review what you’re spending in these areas in various statements and categorize these whether that’s credit card statements, debit card statements, whatever might be the source of those expenses. Now, I want to emphasize here that discretionary expenses are not bad, right in any way, shape, or form. I think sometimes we get to this step, and we start to have some self judgment, and a little bit of questioning, Well, should I be spending money here? Should it be spending money there? Discretionary expenses, and of themselves are not bad, we’re just separating them from essential expenses as we look at this exercise. In fact, they’re an important part a very important part of living the rich life that we want to live, right? Yes, we’ve got to pay down debt. Yes, we have to save and invest for the future. But we also want to enjoy some of these things along the way. So that’s step number three is determining how much to spend on discretionary.

Step number four, then, is calculating what we call disposable income. Remember, we started with take home pay, we subtracted essential expenses, we subtracted discretionary expenses. And now what we’re trying to determine is what is the disposable income. So this is the amount that we calculate by taking, again, the take home pay, subtracting essential and discretionary expenses. This number is the amount that you have to put towards other financial goals, whether that’s building an emergency fund, whether it’s saving for kids college, whether that’s additional retirement savings, down payment on a home, second property, whatever might be the case. So for example, if you have a take home pay of $7,000, you have necessary expenses of $3,000, discretionary expenses of $2,000, you would have leftover $2,000 of disposable income that we can identify and work with and put towards other goals. Now, why this budgeting method, I think works well and hopefully is one that you don’t hate is we are doing this proactively, before we actually earn the income. Right? We’re doing this proactively before we actually earn the income. So, if we can identify in advance what our goals are, and we can identify how much we have to allocate towards those goals, then the next step we’ll talk about is how to actually make sure we distribute them accordingly. All the sudden, we’re thinking in a way that we are pre funding our goals, right really important, rather than waiting to see what’s left over at the end of the month. And that is what we typically see is sure this takes time to get set up. But when we have this system humming, when we see that we have disposable income, or we thought about that to assign to our various goals, and we know that we’re funding those goals, we can really see some feelings of momentum and progress that are taking place. So that’s step number four, calculating your expense, disposable income.

And then step number five is allocating that disposable income to your goals, right. This is where I really feel like the magic happens: allocating your disposable income to your financial goals. And again, we’re doing this proactively before we earn the income, or at least preparing for this. And then once we earn the income, we’re going to allocate accordingly. So if the amount of disposable income, right, in step number four, when we calculated that disposable income, if the amount of that disposable income isn’t enough to meet the goals that you’ve set and the timeframe that is desirable to you, or you find out that you have a deficit here, well, this is where really where the rubber meets the road. We’ve got some work to do. Right, we’ve got two options. We can adjust our goals, I guess three options, we can adjust our goals, we can cut our expenses, or we can try to grow our income and perhaps it might be a combination of those three, but this is really where we shine a light on the reality of where we are at and so often with the financial plan. The stress comes from living in the dark, right wondering, I hope, I wish, I dream are we going to be able to do this? And we’re going to be able to do that? Really, this system is telling us where are we at? And what are the areas that we want to focus on? And what are the dollars that we have available to do that if we can’t meet those two things? What adjustments do we need to make? Do we need to adjust our goals? Do we need to cut our expenses or, and or are their options to grow our income? Now, the reason why this is called a zero based budget is because at the end of step number five, where we’re allocating our disposable income to our goals, we should have “spent”, “spent” because we’re doing this proactively, our entire income, meaning that every dollar has been assigned, and we have a $0 balance remaining, right, because we’ve allocated every dollar to essential expenses, discretionary expenses, and then ultimately, to the goals that we’ve determined are most important.

Alright, so those are the five steps of creating the zero based budget. Now, if we zoom back out, remember, where did we start? We started with doing a financial vitals check. Where are we at today? What what is our net worth position? What are the areas of the financial plan that we want to focus on? We then talked about setting the vision, right? What does it mean, for us? Our unique plan and vision for living a rich life? How are we spending our money? How are we spending our time? We then talked about tracking back 90 days, so we can get an idea of what our spending is in various categories of the budget on average each month. And then we talked about setting the budget, right. And that was the five steps I just reviewed with a zero base budget.

Tim Ulbrich 26:31

Now the final step of all this part number five years really tracking and automating this system. Now how you choose to track this really doesn’t matter to me, at the end of the day, it’s the system that works best for you. And is the system that is feasible for you to keep going, at least for the foreseeable future. So when I asked a group of pharmacists, hey, what system do you use to track? You know, some people use some of the fancy softwares and tools that are out there, such as YNAB, or Every Dollar, just a couple examples, some use a tool that’s provided to them through their bank or the credit card that they use. Most people I would say, use probably a Google spreadsheet or some type of Excel template. So how you track it to me, doesn’t necessarily matter. But the second part of this final step, right, I mentioned, track and automate. Track and automate when it comes to automating your financial plan. It is so obvious, so effective, so easy to implement, but so many people aren’t optimizing this.

Think of automation as the mechanism by which you’re going to put your budget that we just said, we’re going to put this to work for us each and every month, because we’ve already done the hard work to proactively define what are our goals? And how are we going to prioritize and fund those goals. Now, I cover this in detail at length in Episode 341, where I talked about five financial moves to make in 2024, I talked about the concept of automation, I talked about exactly what the system looks like for Jess and I and our own financial plan. So make sure to go back and listen to that and how you can begin to implement automation as a part of your financial plan. Alright, so there you have it. Five steps that you can use to implement a budgeting system and process that not only hope, hopefully helps you achieve your financial goals. But I also hope makes this topic just a little bit more palatable. So we talked about the importance of doing that financial vital check, setting the vision, tracking back 90 days, setting the budget, and then developing a process to track and automate that along the way.

Alright, as we wrap up today, an important reminder about our webinar coming up on March 7 at 8:30pm/Eastern, Budgeting Blueprint, What Zero-Based Budgeting Is, Why It Works, and How to Start One. I’m really excited to walk you through in a visual manner how you can implement your own zero based budget as well as to anonymously feature other real pharmacists’ budgets for you to see. So to get started, you can register for the webinar for free again, you visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budgetwebinar again that yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budgetwebinar to save your seat. We’re gonna be giving away three $50 Amazon gift cards of pharmacists who submit their budget to be featured and who attend the webinar live. So as a reminder to have your template, your budget template featured, you can download that free zero based budget template yourfinancialpharmacist.com/budget, fill it out with your own numbers, send it back to us attach it [email protected], in the subject line make sure you note budget and then if you have any questions in your own budget template you want me to address during the webinar make sure to include those in the email as well. Alright, thanks so much for listening to this week’s episode of the YFP Podcast. We’ll catch you again next week. Take care.

Tim Ulbrich 29:51

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 345: 7 Personal Finance Books to Read in 2024 with Tim Ulbrich

Posted on February 8, 2024February 7, 2024 by YFP Media

Tim Ulbrich reviews seven impactful finance books he recommends for both seasoned investors and beginners to gain strategies and inspiration for success.

Episode Summary

In this episode, Tim Ulbrich continues the discussion from Episode 341 on “5 Financial Moves to Make in 2024.” The fifth “move” was about “setting a plan for your personal finance learning,” and this week, Tim dives into seven personal finance books that have profoundly influenced his financial journey.

With no particular order in mind, Tim shares insights from each book and how he has implemented key takeaways into his own financial plan. You can find links to all these recommended books in the show notes. Tim emphasizes that these are not just any books – they are ones he frequently recommends or gifts to others, and they have played a crucial role in his and his wife, Jess’, journey towards achieving financial freedom.

Whether you’re a seasoned investor or just starting on your financial journey, these books are a must-read (or re-read) in 2024. Tune in for valuable insights and inspiration to help you pave your way to financial success!

About Today’s Guest

Tim received his Doctor of Pharmacy degree from Ohio Northern University and completed postgraduate residency training at The Ohio State University. He spent 9 years on faculty at Northeast Ohio Medical University prior to joining Ohio StateUniversity College of Pharmacy in 2019 as Clinical Professor and Director of the Master’s in Health-System Pharmacy Administration Program.

Key Points from the Episode

Personal finance books and their impact on achieving financial goals. [0:00]
Balancing saving and spending for a rich life. [5:30]
Wealth-building books and their impact on financial planning. [9:30]
Building wealth through calculated risks and long-term investments. [14:09]
Personal finance books and their impact on the Tim’sjourney. [18:03]

Episode Highlights

“When it comes to personal finance, I believe strongly that there is no “arrived” with the financial plan. A commitment to ongoing learning and having the humility to understand that there is much to learn on this topic and mistakes are inevitable is key to long term success.” – Tim Ulbrich [01:49]

“Money is a tool that if we are planning appropriately, we can facilitate and direct to those areas that have the most significance.” – Tim Ulbrich [04:04]

“That’s why as we say, often, a good financial plan should take care of your future self, but also allow you to live a rich life today.” – Tim Ulbrich [07:13]

“Money is something that affords us the opportunity to pay for our basic needs and, if we’re able, to live our rich life and to give to others. And next time you hold a bill of any value in your hand, remind yourself that it’s a piece of paper. In fact, it’s a piece of paper that I recently learned is 25%, linen, 75% cotton. But this is a piece of paper that has value because, number one, we all agree that it has value. And number two, it’s backed by the faith and credit of the US government. So what’s my point? My point is that it’s finite, right. And if we’re not careful, we can miss the boat on accruing while losing sight of the so-what.” – Tim Ulbrich [20:00]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich 00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week, I’m covering seven personal finance books that have been integral in my own journey that I think you should read or perhaps reread in 2024. My criteria for a book to make this list includes one that I frequently recommend or gift to others, and that I have implemented one or more things from the book of my own financial plan that has had a significant impact for Jess and I achieving our financial goals. Before we jump into the show and my list of seven personal finance books to read in 2024, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what our team at YFP Planning does and working one on one with pharmacists all across the country. YFP Planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning and wealth management services for pharmacists at all stages of their careers. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one on one with a certified financial planner can help you achieve your financial goals. You can book a free discovery call at YFPplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

Tim Ulbrich 01:17

Hey, everyone, welcome to this week’s episode! Tim Ulbrich here and I’m excited to talk through seven personal finance books that I think you should read or perhaps reread in 2024. For now, we kicked off the new year with Episode 341, where I cover the five financial moves to make to crush your 2024 goals. And we’ll link to that episode in the show notes. One of those moves was to set your learning plan. To have an intentional plan and effort to up your financial IQ and your financial knowledge. And when it comes to personal finance, I believe strongly that there is no “arrived” with the financial plan. A commitment to ongoing learning and having the humility to understand that there is much to learn on this topic and mistakes are inevitable is key to long term success. Now one of the greatest advantages that we have living in the 21st century is that we have access to learn just about anything that we want, often at low or no cost. Right. Thank you very much to the Public Library system. So here are seven financial books that have had a profound impact on my journey, such that I often recommend these books to others, gift them and I’ve implemented at least one often more than one of the teachings in my own financial plan.

All right, in no particular order. Let’s jump in with book number one, which is I Will Teach You To Be Rich by Ramit Sethi. Now I had the chance to hear Ramit meet speak in 2019 at the FinCon event the Fin Con Conference in Washington DC and it was fire. He’s a fantastic speaker, a fantastic teacher. And at the time, the theme of his talk, which he talks about the book I Will Teach You To Be Rich, is money dials. Money dials, a key concept in that book. And really the concept of money dials is identifying what areas of spending have the most significance, meaning or impact for you, and dialing those up. And on the flip side, finding those areas of spending that perhaps are somewhat automatic, and we may not even be thinking a whole lot about it. And they have the least significance, or meaning or impact and dialing those down. Right? It’s about intentional allocation of the dollars that we have and spending them in areas that we derive the most significance. Now it sounds obvious, but it’s easy to fall into the trap of spending money on things that you don’t really care that much about at the expense of not having money to spend on things that mean the most to you. And I love that he starts off the book with this, right? Because before we implement the X’s and O’s of the financial plan that you’ve heard me say on this podcast many times, we have to be clear on what does it mean to live a rich life.

Now he uses the terminology money dials, we talked about living a rich life, we’re talking about the same thing, right? Money is a tool that if we are planning appropriately, we can facilitate and direct to those areas that have the most significance. Now in fact, as a society, I would argue that we do this all the time, the literature shows us that experiences and giving derive the most significance in terms of the connection between happiness and money- hold that thought I’m gonna come back to that in one of the other books that I mentioned in this list of seven. Yet those two things often fall towards the bottom of the list as we give preference to less meaningful things. Now this is not about me saying what should or shouldn’t be meaningful, right? Everyone has different significance and meaning it’s about getting clear on what are those things that you derive the greatest significance and meaning from and is your financial plan is your spending in alignment with those areas?

Now, in addition to the concept of money downs in this book, his teachings on automation have stayed with me and are ones I’ve applied in my own plan and teach, often to other pharmacists. Now he says in the book that automating your money will be the single most profitable system that you’ll ever build. And I would whole heartedly agree with that. It takes time, a little bit of time to set up a perhaps not as much as you think. But once you have a system in place, where you’ve thought about and identified your goals, we’ve accounted for them inside of the monthly spending plan. And then we are automatically funding those goals. And we see that process happening. Boom, right? That’s when we’re really humming with the financial plan. In general, this book is a great personal Finance 101 read, it’s an easy read. Again, he’s a fantastic teacher. And I love the principles in this book and are principles that I often apply in my own financial plan. So first book on our list, I Will Teach You To Be Rich by Ramit Sethi.

The second book on my list is Die with Zero by Bill Perkins. Die with Zero by Bill Perkins. Now, this book is all about perspective, and was one of my favorite reads, if not my favorite read of 2023. This book is going to challenge you to think differently about the value of spending and finding that balance with saving or as we say, at YFP finding the balance between living a rich life today, and planning and taking care of our future selves. Now, if you’re an aggressive saver, guilty as charged, right, and you find yourself challenged to enjoy spending money today, right to let go the reins a little bit, this is a must read for you. Bill Perkins, in the book challenges traditionally held beliefs about retirement planning, and passing down generational wealth.

One of my favorite quotes from the book is when he says quote, “People who save tend to save too much for too late in their lives, they are depriving themselves now just to care for a much, much older future self, a future self that may never live long enough to enjoy the money.” Nothing in the future is guaranteed. Yet we should plan for our future selves. Both are true, right, we have to strike this balance. And that’s why as we say, often, a good financial plan should take care of your future self, but also allow you to live a rich life today. And if you’re feeling that tension, I think you’re gonna find a lot of value in this book.

Through Bill’s teaching, I’ve come to appreciate and still need a lot of help guidance and reminders from my financial planner, from Jess in our own plan, that spending just like saving is a learned habit. I was recently reminded of this after listening to an interview on Ramit Sethi’s podcast, where he was talking with a couple nearing retirement age that had over $6 million in net worth. It was quite sad to hear the husband rationalize with Ramit for almost two hours, all the reasons why he couldn’t spend and enjoy because he had to, quote, “first save it up” or quote, “work harder” to make up for what he was going to spend. Again, net worth of $6 million. So for all intents and purposes, they achieved their savings goals plus some, right? The plan had worked. They had gotten to that point that they were planning for all along. But despite what the numbers showed, he couldn’t shift his mindset. He was stuck in the grind and the hustle of working and saving, working and saving. And this is something we don’t talk about often enough with a financial plan that when we work hard for 30 or 40 years to save, that is a big transition. When we get to the withdrawal phase, right? We need to be planning for that. We need to be preparing for that. And we need training wheels along the way to help us with this learned behavior of spending. And the point that Ramit was trying to make and trying to get this husband to see is that in order to live a rich life, the plan that got them there can’t be the same as the plan going forward. Right, the plan that got them there to work hard to save, save, save, work hard, save, save, save, that mindset was going to require a shift in order to live a rich life. New behaviors need to be learned. And ideally, we can build these spending muscles throughout our careers and not just wait until some day off in the future that may or may not come and may or may not be what we have in mind. So my challenge for you is I highlight this book Die With Zero here by Bill Perkins not only to read the book, but my challenge to you is does your financial plan include a balance of saving for your future self and living a rich life today?

Number three in the book is Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki. Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki. Now, Robert Kiyosaki has recently come into the spotlight and many different controversial ways. So personality aside, his teachings in this book, in my opinion, remain a classic. This book is all about mindset, not X’s and O’s. Like some of the other books that are on the list today. And if you think of the financial plan as a series of decisions that need to be made, I think of this book as being a philosophy that guides those decisions, it’s the thread behind the decisions that we make. Now, some key takeaways from this book that have stayed with me for several years, I think I first read it about seven or eight years ago, maybe even longer. I’ve read it a second, maybe a third time at this point. And it’s one of those books I’d like to come back to every so often. And a few of the things that have stayed with me is that, you know, what we might think is an asset versus a liability. I think he challenges that mindset. Why the leverage is an important tool to build wealth. And of course, there’s risk with leverage. And we have to balance that. Also, what has stayed with me is why traditional W2 income limits wealth building. Traditional W2 income has limits as it relates to wealth building. And finally, why business ownership and real estate investing are key legs of wealth building. So he makes a strong argument that much of the tax code is really written in favor of those that own a small business and those that own real estate. Now, that’s not to suggest that those pathways are for everyone, by any means. But it really highlights to me the philosophy in which we might be thinking about building wealth.

Now, this book in particular, along with Tax Free Wealth, by Tom Wheelwright, and we’ll link to all these books in the show notes, Tax Free Wealth by Tom Wheelwright really opened my eyes to the importance of tax as a part of the financial plan, one that is kind of always behind the scenes that probably many of us are not thinking about. And more specifically, the strategies that can be employed to optimize our tax situation, right? We want to pay our fair share, but we want to pay no more. And I think through these teachings, and really digging into the form 1040 and understanding how the different components of that form work and what are the levers that we can pull to make our tax rate as efficient as possible. These two resources: Rich Dad, Poor Dad and Tax Free Wealth have really been instrumental in opening my eyes to the significance and importance of tax as a part of the financial plan.

Our number four on my list is The Millionaire Next Door by Dr. Tom Stanley. The Millionaire Next Door by Dr. Tom Stanley, and the updated version, The Next Millionaire Next Door, featuring Tom’s daughter, Dr. Sarah Stanley Fallaw which we had the pleasure of having on the podcast on episode number 200. This book examines the key behavioral traits of millionaires. One of my favorite quotes in the book is when he says, quote, “One of the reasons that millionaires are economically successful is that they think differently.” They think differently. What he’s talking about is one of my key takeaways from that book is that net worth, not income, net worth, which is your assets, what you own minus your liabilities, that really is a true indicator of your overall financial health. Net worth, not income, as the financial vitals check, is really going to help us as we think about this mindset of is our income being translated into building our assets, and paying down our debt.

Some of my other key takeaways from this book is that, you know, we often wouldn’t know who the people are that are millionaires or multimillionaires. When you look at the research that’s presented in The Millionaire Next Door, as well as the updated version and The Next Millionaire Next Door, the spending behaviors and patterns would say that they probably aren’t the people that we think are millionaires that more or portray to be millionaires. They often have a frugal mindset, doesn’t mean that they’re cheap doesn’t mean that they don’t like investing in good experiences, doesn’t mean that they’re not philanthropic or givers. But they often have a frugal mindset. They’re typically not trapped, millionaires are not trapped by what I think of as the big rocks, right? They’re not house poor, they’re not car poor. They do take calculated risks, often in business or real estate. And most millionaires, as the research suggests, in that book are self made. It’s not typically inherited money. Fascinating research and concepts. I would highly recommend The Millionaire Next Door or the updated version, if you haven’t already read it.

Alright, number five on my list is the Compound Effect by Darren Hardy. The Compound Effect by Darren Hardy. It was one of those books, it’s a quick read. It was one of those books, I remember exactly where I was when I read it. At our old house up in Northeast Ohio during the summer, I read it outside in couple hours, I couldn’t put it down. And one of those books, you’re just constantly highlighting taking notes. You’re like “Yes, yes, yes!” And this is not exclusively a personal finance book, but I love the applications here. And I was recently reflecting on those in my life that have been financially successful because I think it’s helpful to learn and grow from those who have actually done it. Right. And as people came to mind that I thought, okay, who has been long term financially successful in building wealth? Not short term success, long term, financially successful? And as I thought more about that as like, I can’t think of anyone I know who got rich off of buying whole life insurance policies, buying and altcoins are buying NFT’s. And I’m not saying that people don’t exist that have built wealth in those ways. Rather, what I’m saying is that I don’t know anyone that took this path. And I feel confident in saying the perception is much greater than the reality when it comes to these types of vehicles being a viable path to building wealth. Right? Often these are short term solutions that are bandaids when we really need to look at long term consistent behaviors.

Rather, when I think of those people that have built long term wealth, it was a long, methodical, patient journey. One intentional step after another where those decisions, and good decisions not to say there weren’t mistakes along the way, but those good decisions compounded over a long period of time. And I think, unfortunately, we’re hearing less of these journeys, right, because these aren’t great clickbait, these aren’t great in terms of social media algorithms. They’re often boring stories in the literature really supports that in the book, The Millionaire Next Door, which I just mentioned previously. And several, when I thought more about who are these people, several not all have multiple pathways of building wealth. Typically, it’s traditional investments, it might be equity in a business, it might be real estate, and those are always in balance. But I’ve noticed that as a theme, and those that have been really long term, successful in building wealth, and often being philanthropic, as a part of that wealth building. These individuals that come to mind are taking calculated risks on opportunities, where they see that the upside dramatically outweighs the downside. And they have a strong financial foundation in place such that if that calculated risk doesn’t work, they’re not going to be impacted in a significant or catastrophic way. Right, they’re able to take that calculated risk, because they have that strong base and foundation in place.

As I think of these people that come to mind, I would describe them as overall fairly conservative, yet willing, again, to take some level of risk if an opportunity presents itself. So they’re not risk averse, but they’re also not flashing. In fact, they’re quite humble. And they’re often very philanthropic. And they really do embody some of the teachings that have stayed with me from this book, The Compound Effect by Darren Hardy. He has a formula in this book that I often reference back to and that formula is small smart choices, plus consistency plus time equals radical difference. Small smart choices, plus consistency plus time equals radical difference. That is the definition of compound interest when we think about saving over a long period of time. So this is the path I will follow. This is the one that I have seen work – a path defined by working hard, taking calculated risk, investing in tax efficient, appreciating assets, building equity that can be converted to other assets, developing a habit and priority for giving and doing this over and over over a long period of time to allow those results to compound.

Our number six on my list is Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey. The Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey. Now, I’m not an avid follower of Dave Ramsey and his principles and the baby steps but I have to give credit where credit is due. Reading the Total Money Makeover going through Financial Peace University listening to Dave Ramsey’s podcast, was really like a wake up call over a decade ago that inspired the journey that Jess and I took to ultimately pay off our $200,000 of student loan debt, and really led to is the really beginning steps of the place that we are today the journey that we would take to get there. That book, The Total Money Makeover, listening to the podcast really lit a fire under me to want to learn more, right, as I mentioned, was kind of a wake up call to create our own path, our own plan. Even if we didn’t follow the path and plan that he prescribes to so many through the baby step formula. The baby steps, I will admit early in our journey, it was a grounding framework. A grounding framework for us that we needed at the time, as we were trying to balance many things. We weren’t doing any of them particularly well. And we didn’t have an intentional plan in place. And that really was the footing that we needed to get started that would ultimately allow us to build momentum, to build our emergency savings, to get out of debt, and then to have a prioritized approach to achieving our goals. So that’s number six, a Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey.

Number seven, last on my list is Happy Money, The Science of Happier Spending by Elizabeth Dunn and Michael Norton. Now, I would assume many of you have heard of all, perhaps, the first six books that I mentioned, but maybe not the case with this one. I ran across this several years ago. And I intentionally book ended my list of seven here with this one in particular because I think that it’s an important reminder that money is a tool, right? I mentioned that when I talked about Die With Zero by Bill Perkins. Money is something that affords us the opportunity to pay for our basic needs and, if we’re able, to live our rich life and to give to others. And next time you hold a bill of any value in your hand, remind yourself that it’s a piece of paper. In fact, it’s a piece of paper that I recently learned is 25%, linen, 75% cotton. But this is a piece of paper that has value because, number one, we all agree that it has value. And number two, it’s backed by the faith and credit of the US government. So what’s my point? My point is that it’s finite, right. And if we’re not careful, we can miss the boat on accruing while losing sight of the so-what. And that reminder comes I think strongly in the book, Happy Money, The Science of Happier Spending, by Elizabeth Dunn and Michael Norton.

This book provides what the research has to say, on the science of spending and the connection between money and happiness. Now, happiness,how do you define that, right? That’s an important component to consider. But my takeaways from this book were that the literature supports, to no surprise, but an important reminder, the link between happiness and money typically lies in two main areas. Number one, spending money on experiences and memories that will come from those. And number two, on giving. When you look at the connection between happy and money, this, it strongly points to giving and experiences as an important part of the financial plan. I think if you talk to anyone who’s been at this for a while, you start to see this come out again, especially as they shore up some of the basis of their financial plan. These are the areas that you typically see people light up when they talk about their financial plan. Alright, so there you have it, short and sweet, seven personal finance books that have had a profound impact on my journey and are books that I would recommend you read or reread in 2024. We’ll link to all of these books in the show note.

And if you have a book that you often recommend, or that has had a profound impact on your journey, I want to hear about it! Shoot me an email at info@your financialpharmacist.com Let me know what I left off the list. I’d love to read it and perhaps share it with our community in the future. Again, you can reach us at [email protected].

Now we all know that learning right reading books, listening to podcasts, learning is one thing, but learning and taking action with accountability is really where we start to see things happen. And that’s why we’re so excited about the work that our team at YFP Planning is doing through our fee-only, certified financial planning service. You want to learn more about what it looks like to work one-on-one with a fee only certified financial planner from Your Financial Pharmacist, yes to learn and grow in your financial IQ and knowledge, but also to take steps and implement those in your financial plan and be held accountable to achieve those results. You can book a free discovery call at YFPPlanning.com. Again, that’s YFPPlanning.com. Thanks so much for joining me on this week’s episode. And we’ll be back next week. Have a great rest of your day.

[DISCLAIMER]

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archive newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit YourFinancialPharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 342: Replay – How Two Pharmacists Paid Off $250k of Student Loan Debt

Posted on January 18, 2024January 18, 2024 by YFP Media

Kristen & Nate Hedrick share their journey paying off $250k student loan debt from the motivation to the role of side hustles and real estate investing.

Episode Summary

How do you go about aggressively paying off a $250,000 student loan debt without feeling overwhelmed? To help answer that question, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, is joined by fellow pharmacists Nate Hedrick, PharmD, and Kristen Hedrick, PharmD, BCACP. The Hedricks tell us how they successfully paid off over $250,000 in student loan debt, their motivation for tackling that debt, the pivotal moment that sparked making repayment a priority, and the role a side hustle and real estate investing played in their journey. After a brief history of Kristen’s background, listeners will hear what motivated the couple to take an aggressive stance on their debt repayments, how a life-changing event and one book altered their financial philosophy, and how the pandemic helped them focus on their strategy. Nate and Kristen share their reasons behind paying their debt off now instead of putting their money toward investments and how they found an additional $3,443 per month to make their goal attainable by reducing expenses and increasing their income. This earnest conversation takes us through the possibilities of working full time, raising a family, making investments, and paying off a huge debt, all at the same time. Nate and Kristen talk about their life after paying off this debt and share some advice for pharmacists who may be struggling with a similar debt situation.

About Today’s Guests

Nate and Kristen Hedrick met at Ohio Northern University and were married in 2013. Nate is a pharmacist with Medical Mutual and a real estate agent with Berkshire Hathaway. Kristen is a pharmacist with Bon Secour Mercy Health. Together, they graduated with over $300,000+ in student loan debt. They enjoy visiting National Parks as a family. Today they live in the suburbs of Cleveland, Ohio, with their two daughters, Molly and Lucy, and their rescue dog Lexi.

Key Points from the Episode

Kristen’s background, how she ended up in pharmacy, and what she’s doing now.
What their student loan debt looked like at its peak.
How student debt can creep up and surprise you.
The initial feelings the couple had towards their debt and their plans to pay it off.
What motivated our guests to come up with an aggressive plan for paying back their debt.
How a life-changing event (and a book) in 2016 changed everything.
The global pandemic as a moment of inspiration.
What they had to change in their lives to be able to make the monthly repayments.
Paying off debt now versus investing for the future.
The way the couple used ‘double motivation’ to reconcile an age-old debate.
How our guests were able to raise a child, invest, and pay off a huge debt at the same time.
Nate’s decision to pursue real estate investing and what that meant for their debt repayments.
The approach the couple has taken to make real estate investing work for their family.
Other strategies that helped to pay off the debt aside from cutting expenses and real estate investments.
The benefits of receiving objective, third-party advice.
What life is like now after paying off their massive debt.
How paying off the debt helped Nate make an important career decision.
Kristen’s advice for the pharmacist struggling with debt.
Nate’s parting words of wisdom.

Episode Highlights

“That was the worst that it got and, that same month, for what it’s worth, we had a negative net worth of $306,000. We had about 10k to our name and a bunch of debt to add on to that.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:03:44]

“I had no plan early on until we developed the ‘why’, which was getting our financial house in order so that we could live the way that we wanted to.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:06:23]

“The expenses were the catalyst, and then it was the extra income side of the equation that really boosted everything to actually make it possible.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:13:37]

“Spending more time with the kids without having that student loan debt, and being able to do more things and travel more, it feels like it’s definitely paying off in the end, with making some of those sacrifices.” — Kristen Hedrick, PharmD, BCACP [0:17:16]

“One great thing about real estate investing is even if something happens, you still own a building.” — Kristen Hedrick, PharmD, BCACP [0:22:00]

“Find something that is going to supplement your life that the more effort you put into it, the more reward you get out of it. That is a really great way to set yourself up for success.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:29:32]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here. Thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Kristen and Nate Hedrick to discuss their journey of paying off $250,000 of student loan debt. In this show, we discuss their motivation and why, for aggressively paying down the debt. What the pivot moment was that motivated them to make the debt repayment a priority, how they were able to come up with more than $3,000 per month extra to throw towards the loans, and the role a side hustle and real estate investing played in helping them pay down the debt.

Before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers free only, high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional.

If you’re interested in learning more about working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Nate and Kristen Hedrick to learn how and why they aggressively paid off $250,000 in student loan debt.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:01:23.4] TU: Kristen and Nate, welcomed to the show.

[0:01:24.7] NH: Hey Tim, good to be here.

[0:01:26.1] KH: Hi.

[0:01:27.0] TU: So Nate, obviously, you’re a frequent flyer. You’re old news so I’m not even going to spend a whole lot of time focusing on you. Many folks have heard you on the podcast before, whether it’s this show, talking about home buying, whether it’s the Real Estate Investing podcast on Saturday mornings, of course, Nate being the cohost of that show.

So, we’re going to focus a little bit more on Kristen’s background as we get started, and we’re going to jump into more about your debt-free journey and how ultimately, you guys were able to knock out $250,000 of debt, and what that has meant to you guys personally, to your family, as well as also the financial goals and plan that you have going forward.

So, before we jump into that debt payoff and that journey, Kristen, let’s start with you. Tell us a little bit more about your background, what drew you into pharmacy, where you went to school and the work that you’re doing now.

[0:02:13.0] KH: Yeah, thanks. I had some extended family members in pharmacy so I just thought it would be a good career path, and looked at the different pharmacy schools and found my way to Ohio Northern in the middle of cornfields, and no cellphone reception and for some reason, that’s where I wanted to go. I think we all know it’s a great campus and community there.

So went to Ohio Northern and that’s where Nate and I met. I completed my residency here in Cleveland, Ohio. Now I work for a large health system doing population health on clinical pharmacy, and following patients with their chronic disease states and helping them with their medicines, and helping in here in Cleveland.

[0:02:50.8] TU: Kristen, it’s funny you mentioned the cellphone reception in Ada Ohio, Ohio Northern University. I remember, I maybe as a P3, P4, just a few years ahead of you guys, but it was a big deal that they added a tower on campus, and I think we got one bar, maybe two bars, but not a whole lot going on in Ada Ohio. I had the chance to go back recently and take Jess and the boys. It was so fun to see campus and really relive some of the memories in that place.

So Nate, tell us about the student loan debt at its peak? What were you guys working with and then, from there, we’ll get into more of some of the motivation and journey of paying it off.

[0:03:26.4] NH: Yeah. So, when we graduated and totaled everything up and, I think it was even a month or two after we graduated that I even wanted to look at it. Because it was the initial plan of, “I just won’t look at it and then it won’t be a problem.” And when we totaled it all up, looking back at our highest count, we were at $316,000 in student loan debt at one point.

So, that was the worst that it got and, that same month, for what it’s worth, we had a negative net worth of $306,000, so we had about 10k to our name and a bunch of debt to add on to that.

[0:03:54.8] TU: I’m curious, did that surprise you guys? One of the stories I often share is that, it’s somewhat embarrassing, but when I was in pharmacy school, it felt a little bit like monopoly money, and it was all of a sudden when I crunch the numbers and I was like, “I owe how much, and how much interest, and what’s my net worth?” It just caught me off-guard, and it shouldn’t have. Were you expecting that or was that number somewhat a surprise at that point?

[0:04:15.4] NH: I agree, it was just totally like made up funds, you know? Every quarter or every semester, I’d have to go and submit for what I needed, and it was the tuition plus a little bit of living expenses, and I would just submit for it and it would get added into this imaginary pile of money somewhere, and I don’t think I ever checked the balance while I was in school, I don’t know why, I don’t know why I would have.

[0:04:35.7] TU: You’re dating yourself Nate, when you talk about quarters by the way. So that ain’t a thing anymore.

[0:04:40.7] NH: Old school, how I work.

[0:04:42.7] TU: Kristen, tell us about the plan that you guys had for the student loans after graduation, after you got married in 2013. How did you feel about the debt overall and then, what was the thought in that moment about how are you going to pay this off?

[0:04:55.7] KH: I think our main thought was it’s overwhelming. It’s just such a large amount that it feels so ambiguous that we thought that we had this plan. We had always wanted to try to pay it off within 10 years. I think I was a little more on track of, “Oh, I want to pay this off in 10 years” and we had some advice from a previous financial advisor that had said, “Oh, it’s just student loan debt, everyone has it, it will be okay.” We changed it to 30 years so we could have minimum payments but always pay extra if we wanted to and, ultimately, we just found that that eventually did not work as well for us.

We needed a more targeted plan to get us on track with what we were doing. We had always been paying the amounts, but I think it was how we were planning to target to actually pay it off. It always felt like this end date that we were never going to get to.

[0:05:44.4] TU: One of the questions I like to ask folks, and we’ll talk more in a little bit about how aggressive you guys were to really get a chunk of this paid off, but I like to understand, what’s the why? What’s the motivation behind it? It’s one of these things, as you mentioned, you can take them out 25, 30 years if you want to. Obviously, you guys made a good decision to be much more aggressive. Tell me more about for the two of you, for your family, why was that important?

[0:06:08.2] NH: It’s funny you say that because I think until I had a why, it wasn’t important. Like I said, I didn’t look at it, I barely wanted to check it. I think at one point in residency, I put myself on the graduated repayment plan and my only motivation was because the payment today is lower and that seems like—that seems better, right?

I had no plan early on, until we developed the ‘why’, which was getting our financial house in order so that we could live the way that we wanted to. Travel, work less, work in the capacities that we wanted to, all the things that have led us to this point. Until I had that in place, there wasn’t a why and it didn’t matter.

[0:06:42.7] TU: Yeah, I think that’s such a good encouragement for folks that are in the midst of their journey, or maybe have wondered into the repayment or for that matter, the financial plan at large, and feel like, “Hey, maybe I’m progressing but not as quickly as I would like to. I’m a little bit stuck.” Really going back to what gets us excited, right?

The topic of money, money is a tool. So, what gets us excited, why do we care bout this topic of money, why do we care about debt repayment, why do we care about saving/investing for the future, why do we care about giving? And then using that as the motivation to drive some of the action and the plan going forward.

So, Nate, what happened in 2016 that was really a motivation to say, “Hey, we’ve got to do something different?”

[0:07:22.0] NH: Yeah, that really is when it changed for us and, again, we’d been paying on them and, every once in a while, we get the idea that, “Hey, we should throw in some extra money because these loans are huge.” We would do it for a couple of months and I feel like we just were inconsistent. But in 2016, we got pregnant with our first child and, again, I tell this story on the podcast several times, but I read Rich Dad Poor Dad and it completely changed my mindset about money and what I wanted to do with money and what I wanted to do with my life and work, and just how I looked at finances.

It’s crazy it took that long to figure that out but I had no formal financial education. We go through pharmacy school, not business school, and until I read that book and changed how I wanted to approach finances in general, again, I didn’t have that why behind it. I didn’t have that motivation, so that’s what really jumpstarted us. I think it was a combination of, “Oh crap, we have a kid on the way and we have to pay for a lot of stuff” and again, this mindset shift that occurred, at least for me.

[0:08:16.1] TU: Kristen, I’m curious. I can just see Nate, because I know him now, I could see him like this totally nerding out over Rich Dad Poor Dad and coming to you with all these ideas and, “What about this, what about that?” Were you equally on fire in that moment or was there different motivations that really led you to say “Hey, we’ve got to do this differently?”

[0:08:34.4] KH: Yeah, I think I had always wanted to pay off the loan. Again, it was just so—it was a large amount that I think I didn’t know how to get there. When Nate said he read Rich Dad Poor Dad, he kept talking about it and talking about it. I think finally, in 2019, I read it, I said, “Oh, this is a really good book, I should have done it sooner”

So, I think we are a really good team together, in trying to work together and get those payments down, and Nate was very much more into it. I think at the time, I was like, I’m growing a human, I’m just going to keep doing what I’m doing, and that was the time that Nate entered real estate. He’s told this story before but, I’m six months pregnant and he goes, “Oh, I think I want to get my real estate license.” This is a time most people would have been getting board certified.

He’s like, “I’m going to go get my real estate license.” He had classes multiple times a week and I’m pregnant, trying to take care of the house and do all these things, getting ready for a baby. So, it paid off in the end and I’m glad that he did it, but I think in the moment there was also that stressful situation for me, but he’s a jack of all trades. He does lots of things and keeps busy, so it’s good.

[0:09:36.0] TU: We’re going to come back to that in a little bit, of what role did that play, Nate, for you, in terms of pursuing that, as you call, a side hustle. It’s much bigger than that, the work that you’re doing now, obviously, but why was that so instrumental, and not only to the numbers but also to some of the mindset and the motivation behind the financial plan and the journey that you were on?

I want to first talk about, though, Nate, walk us through what happened in the pandemic that really allowed you guys to say, “Hey, we’re going to get specific about when we’re going to payoff a big chunk of this debt, what it’s going to take each month.” Talk to us about what happened during the pandemic that led you to the decision around how you were going to pay off a huge portion of that debt.

[0:10:15.5] NH: Yeah, so, like I said, 2016 is where we started getting pretty serious, but even then, it wasn’t truly resolute plan, right? It was just, “Okay, we really got to be focusing on throwing extra money at this” and we did a lot better. But in 2020, we had a month or two in the pandemic and realized, “Okay, we’re not traveling as much, we’re not going to be going out to eat as much, everything shut down, let’s use this time to take the extra money that we’re not spending and really attack that loan.” At one point and, again, we were talking this morning, it was right at the end of the year, we said, “Okay, this thing is not going away, let’s really use next year to just get rid of this loan.”

So, right in December of 2020 and going into the beginning of the New Year, we said, “Let’s figure out a number. What is it that’s going to take to get this loan knocked out at the end of the year? Who cares of the balances right now, we’re going to do it in a year, let’s make sure to get it done.” So, we did some crunching of some numbers and basically said, “Okay, if we can pay everything we’re paying today but also throw an extra $3,443 at the loan every single month, mine will be gone by the end of the year and it will be just knocked out.”

So, that number, I wrote it on the big note card over here and it became like—actually got it here, I’ll grab it. Here you go, so there’s the evidence, right? 3,443. So, that became—I put that everywhere and it became the mantra of like, “If we can do that every single month, this will be gone” and that was such a huge motivator for us.

[0:11:32.8] TU: I don’t want to brush over that, because we’ll talk about it, I mean, that’s a big number, so we’re going to talk about the how of that, but tell us more about how you were able to get to that conclusion and get on the same page with that conclusion? What I’m specifically getting at here is, was it a, “hey budget status quo and we’re going to find ways to grow our income”? Was it a, “we’re going to cut some expenses”? How did you guys work through the details, Kristen, to ultimately say, “Yup, it’s $3,443 and this is how we’re going to do it.”

[0:12:04.5] KH: I think it was a little bit of a combination of both. During the pandemic, we had a little bit more interest. I think also, in doing some real estate investing and had an opportunity, we said, “Okay, do we take this money and do we put it towards real estate or do we pay down the loan more?” and eventually, we decide real estate, but we said, “Hey, like, maybe we should aggressively pay off our loan a little bit more if we are traveling and doing these things.”

So, I think in December, we had a lot of discussion about it and both of us just decided yes, we both want that to be our goal, that starting January 1st, we really start cutting back on what we’re spending. I think, really, from any area that we could, we went thorough our budget, we scrubbed it. We said, “What are we spending money on, what are the subscriptions we have, what can we cut out, what can we save money on?”

“Which of those little purchases can we just stop doing? Which things do we think that we need, can we actually hold off on buying?” and then, certainly, Nate’s side hustle helped with that as well. So, I think it was both a combination of, let’s cut back to really bare minimum spending. We weren’t eating out, we weren’t getting the extra cups of coffee from Starbucks, we weren’t doing the purchases at Target that said, “This is what you need, and this is in the dollar spot.” We just stopped all of that. And Nate worked as hard as he could with his real estate; it really is a motivator to keep putting that extra money towards it as well.

[0:13:22.3] NH: Yeah, I think we quickly realized that trying to find for an extra $3,000 in the budget. We weren’t over spending by three grand every month, that was not it, so it became my challenge to say, “Okay, well, how can I work at this side hustle to really get us the rest of the way?” So, the expenses were the catalyst, and then it was the extra income side of the equation that really boosted everything to actually make it possible.

[0:13:44.7] TU: Yeah. What I love about that is, certainly, cutting expenses, especially short-term, if you’re focused on a goal, you were talking about debt repayment, can be really valuable but it also can be a grind. I mean, it can be soul sucking sometimes, you know?

I think that one of the things I love about the approach that you took is that if you’re moving both sides of the equation, there’s a different level of momentum and mindset that come from that. Maybe the numbers aren’t as big for other folks that are pursuing ideas, but if you can both focus on, “Hey, how can we draw the income and how can we keep the expenses?” you all of a sudden feel like you’re picking up momentum in a significant way, but I don’t want to brush over that number.

$3,443 per month, that’s, for many pharmacist, if we assume, hundred, $120,000 of wage, it’s like, it’s about half of take home pay. I mean, for a lot of folks, we look at that at a monthly basis so that’s certainly commendable, and that’s a big number. Nate, I want to ask the question that I know the listeners are thinking, which is Nate, Kristen, you guys are smart. $3,443, why not invest that money?

Why not put that out so we could see that grow and compound over 20, 30, 40 years? Like, how did you guys reconcile this ongoing debate, which is maybe a little bit of a moot point right now because the administrative forbearance, but this ongoing debate of, “Should I pay down the debt or should I invest for the future?”

[0:15:03.9] NH: Yeah. This is something we struggled with for years. Should we go out and buy another rental property or should we just take this money and throw it at the loan? That’s been the back and forth. Like Kristen was saying, we were evaluating whether we should be doing real estate or paying down the debt.

We challenged ourself to say like, “Can we do both?” and so, for me, again, working and trying to add extra income to the equation. It became a game of, “Okay, if I can make $3,000 a month extra, that’s going to get us there. But if I can make 4,000 or 5,000, that’s another couple of grand I can put at the real estate investing budget.”

So what we have, we had a bucket in LI, in our LI bank account, that was the real estate investing fund and we still have that, we still use it, it is a great way to separate our money. I had to pull from that in any month that I didn’t make enough income to really make the difference, I had to pull out of that. So it was like this, I was afraid to give it up. So it became a challenge to myself and to us.

We need to cut our expenses and raise our income in a way where I can keep padding that account, that bucket, while also meeting our number. It was a double motivator of let’s get rid of the debt and I don’t want to lose sight of the other thing that I’m really passionate about. So, let us find a way to do both.

[0:16:09.8] TU: Kristen, we both know that kids could be expensive. We love them, but it can be very expensive. I think one of the challenges folks have that are raising young family, whether it is debt repayment, whether it is achieving other financial goals, is it’s an expensive phase of life, right?

The data suggested it’s multiples of hundreds of thousands to be able to raise a child, and I am curious of how you guys were able to reconcile this with young ones? I know you guys are so active and intentional as a family now. When you’re looking ahead to say, “Hey, this is a sacrifice now but it is going to allow us to really push our goals forward as a family later in the future.” Tell us about your thoughts on that.

[0:16:46.9] KH: For sure. I remember being pregnant in 2016 and just thinking like, “Oh my gosh, I already feel like we’re living paycheck to paycheck, how are we possibly going to raise a child and afford daycare?” We even joke now, our big expense is mortgage. Childcare and student loan debt was there, our mortgage was the least expensive of all of those.

So yes, certainly having kids is—we always felt like we knew we wanted to have kids and it was just figuring out how do we plan for that. I think, especially now, spending more time with the kids too without having that student loan debt and being able to do more things and travel more, it feels like it’s definitely paying off in the end with making some of those sacrifices or making those adjustments.

Really, that mindset change, I was joking this morning, like you said Tim, it’s mindset changing. In 2021, we actually kept a list of things of, what are things we didn’t buy that we’re going to buy when the student loan is paid, and I was laughing because I’m like, “I still haven’t even bought these things yet.” We just found that maybe we don’t actually need them.

[0:17:44.7] TU: Yeah and some of those behaviors. That’s what I always encourage folks, whatever goal you’re working towards, some of those behaviors you implement in that season will stay with you for the long run. Certainly, there’s a time and place to loosen the reigns a little bit and make sure we’re living a rich life today as well as planning for the future, but we’ll talk about what that looks like for you guys.

But some of those behaviors can stay longer, which I think is really an incredible part of the journey. I want to touch on two things we’ve mentioned I think play a really important role to this journey, which is, number one, that you talk about the side hustle you had working full-time as a pharmacist, as a real estate agent that allowed you to accelerate some of the goals and momentum.

Then the second being the investing in real estate, which much of our community already knows the work that you there on the Real Estate Investing Podcast but talk to us first about the side hustle as a realtor. When did you become a realtor, why did you become a realtor and you know ultimately, how have you been able to balance this while you are also at the time working full-time?” You are raising a young family, tell us about the decision to pursue that work and the role that it played and the debt repayment journey.

[0:18:51.3] NH: Yes, I mentioned that mindset shift that occurred in 2016. I realized I needed something else that was going to be able to supplement my pharmacy career, something where I could put extra effort in and get extra reward from doing that, real estate became a natural fit. Again, it is mentioned a dozen times in Rich Dad Poor Dad and I started reading other things about ways to diversify income streams and, you name it, right?

Real estate was in that conversation. I talked to my father-in-law who has been in real estate for years and he’s like, “You should just get your license.” At the time that felt like, “Well, that’s a different career. I can’t do that” but as I looked into it, it was actually a really reasonable option to supplement that. So I went, like Kristen said, to classes in 2016, got licensed in early 2017 and I assumed that everyone was all of a sudden coming to me, right?

All my family and friends were going to flock to me and say, “Nate, buy and sell me a house” and it was, I think, eight months before I had a real client and actually closed the deal. I mean, it was a long time, and that’s because I wasn’t putting the right amount of effort into it and I wasn’t targeting what I needed to be doing, right? I wasn’t niching down and, again, that’s what led to the creation of real estate RPH and all the work that I do with pharmacists and the real estate community.

All those things progressed down the road to the point where I am at today where, again, now I get to work with a bunch of active clients here in Cleveland. I help people all over the country with our real estate concierge service and it is a really cool way to put my passion for real estate into the world of pharmacy that I started out in and, again, it’s also been a great way for us to supplement our income stream just because it is something where I could put more effort in and get more dollars out as a result from doing that.

[0:20:21.6] TU: Yeah. I want to put a plug in, just so you don’t have to as well, but I think that service has really been so valuable to the community. So, if folks are looking to buy a home, sell a home, looking to buy an investment property and they’re looking for an agent that would be a good fit for them. It is okay if you’re not in the Cleveland area where Nate is, he’s built a network of agents all across the country that have supported other pharmacist.

So, if you go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com, you click on home buying, you’ll see a section for find an agent and from there, you can get connected with Nate further.

Kristen, I want to ask you about the real estate investing side just because Nate talks about this on the podcast every week but I know, because I’ve seen it offline through some of the times I am talking with Nate, you guys are crunching numbers on the property and you’re on the spreadsheets punching numbers, “Is this a good deal, is this not a good deal?”

Tell us more about the vision that you guys have had for real estate investing for you as a family, why that’s been a good fit, and the approach that you’ve taken thus far in your real estate investing journey?

[0:21:17.5] KH: Yeah, I think we always had an interest in real estate investing. You know, my family has some experience with that, like Nate mentioned, my dad is a realtor, so we knew its something we eventually wanted to do. It was just figuring out ,how do we put it in as part of our plan? But when Nate said he was interested, I was all onboard, but I was also that type-A risk averse pharmacist as in, “How do we do this? I have no idea.”

I vividly remember a lot of my commutes, listening to Bigger Pockets, reading a lot of real estate books just to fill my brain with the information I felt that I needed to feel comfortable with real estate investing, and we always knew that we wanted to have those properties. I think one of the biggest things I had learned from Bigger Pockets was, one great thing about real estate investing is even if something happens, you still own a building.

You still have something physical there that you could sell and we just—we always knew we wanted it to be something to supplement with one of our investments.

[0:22:13.4] TU: Yeah, so right now you guys have property, correct me if I am wrong, you’ve got property in Northeast Ohio and then you’ve also got property outside of the area, correct?

[0:22:22.0] NH: Yes, so we’ve got properties here locally and then some up in Michigan as well.

[0:22:25.7] TU: Awesome, love that. And folks can tune in to the Real Estate Investing Podcast for more stories of other pharmacists real estate investors. So, we’ve talked about really three main buckets that were instrumental in paying off this $250,000 of debt and that was, I categorize it as hustle, cutting your expenses that more than $3,000 per month, growing the income through the side hustle, and then also looking at how you’re able to build a real estate investment portfolio. We’re there other strategies that helped you along this way of paying off this debt?

[0:22:55.8] NH: There are little things. I think one that comes to mind for me is that we refinanced that loan, I think four different times, and a lot of that was because we were getting low interest rates every single time, and the other is because we were able to get big bonus. So, if you have been on any of the YFP resources for loan pay down or for loan refinance, you get cash bonuses depending on your loan balance.

A couple of times we would go out and refinance it, wait a couple of months, refinance it again, and we’d get a check and a lower interest rate, it just made a ton of sense. So, that was a little thing that helped quite a lot along the way.

[0:23:24.2] KH: I think another thing that really helped us was working with Tim Baker and the planning team at YFP. They were very much instrumental in guiding us through and helping us make the decisions. You know, I grew up putting my money under a mattress making sure it was nice and crisp and counting it every week. When we started this journey, Nate wasn’t financially savvy until 2016, when he got more into it after reading Rich Dad Poor Dad.

So, I think working together in having a third party objectively look at everything and give us some guidance was really helpful as well.

[0:23:55.9] TU: You don’t have to make Tim’s ego any bigger. No, I’m just kidding. I can see he is listening to that. So the question that I am begging to know the answer to is, you guys were throwing a huge amount of money at this debt. Obviously, at some point, you got that debt paid off and, all of a sudden, you’re not having to make that big of a payment anymore. I often think about this in the context of my journey and I often chalk it up to where did that money go.

Well, more kids, kids got expensive, other things come along the way, but I also know you guys have been really intentional as a family about what are we trying to do in terms of experiences and how we want to be intentional with the resources and the money that you have each month. So, Kristen, talk to us about this journey after the $250,000 of debt, where no longer making this massive monthly payment. What’s happening? What are we doing?

[0:24:43.5] KH: Well, we went to Disney World. I feel like that’s the most appropriate thing, you know? Honestly, in some parts, it feels like it hasn’t changed at all. We still have a lot of that mindset with being frugal and still saving for our future, but also trying to live in the moment, and we have done a lot of life planning as well and things that we want to do. I think we’re working on travelling more.

Like I said, we went to Disney, hopefully some other trips coming up, just being able to spend more time with the kids I think. People with children understand that the first five years before they start school is just hectic and overwhelming. We were just trying to take in all these moments before they head to school officially.

[0:25:20.1] TU: I love that. Right, it goes quick and everyone says that, but it’s real, and I think the intentionality around these experiences and making sure there’s the budget there to support those experiences and to be able to enjoy those moments along the way. Nate, you recently shared publically your decision to go from full-time to part-time work in your pharmacist role. So we’re going to officially call you a pseudo pharmacist now.

[0:25:41.7] NH: That’s fair.

[0:25:42.9] TU: How much of a factor was getting to this point of having this $250,000 of debt paid off, how much of a factor was that and being able to approach that decision and ultimately, feel confident in that decision.

[0:25:55.4] NH: Yeah, it was huge. I mean, I can’t say that when we stared off that was the plan but as we get closer, we realized that it was a possibility, and I looked at the timing and I looked at where we were at and I said, “Look, this is like the last summer before our oldest goes off to kindergarten and then it is just going to get crazier and crazier as time goes on” So I took a step back and said, “Now that this debt is gone, we really can take a step back.”

Kristen has been so supportive and helpful in allowing me to do that, but it’s been really cool because now I can just focus on them for the summer and those extra 20 hours that I found every single week is just, I’m on the kid’s schedule. Like the other day, it was raining in the morning and so we went to the movies and we saw a kid’s movie and then we got out and I was like, “Hey, it’s sunny. Let’s go to the playground” and so we did that.

It was just really cool to be on their schedule rather than some work schedule or something else that I had to do or had to get done. There wasn’t a timeframe anymore and that’s been really cool and again, without that debt being gone, there is no way we could have done that.

[0:26:51.3] TU: Yeah, what I love is I think both of you are such a great example. Where yes, you’ve got a PharmD, yes, you’ve got residency training, yes, you could continue to climb certainly in various clinical roles and there’s the opportunities always there and will be there, but you also have some opportunity for flexibility in those roles and I think sometimes we don’t think creatively enough as pharmacist about how we’re going to use our time each week, and that can change season to season.

I work with other pharmacists who went through a season with young family and others where they pivoted to part-time roles or more flexible schedules and then that changed the game at a later point in time. So I think there’s opportunities to make sure that we are coordinating our work plan with our life plan and with the financial plan as well. Kristen, I’ll start with you and then Nate, if you have other thoughts as well.

I’m someone listening who, maybe I’m a student, and I am like, “Oh my gosh, thanks so much I feel depressed about the journey ahead” or maybe I am in the middle of the debt repayment journey and I just feel like, “When does this going to end?” or I feel like I am spinning my wheels. What advice would you have for pharmacists that are in that debt repayment journey as they’re trying to really navigate that path forward?

[0:27:58.8] KH: Yeah. Not to sound cheesy, but I think a really big player, at least for me, was the YFP planning team. We felt like we had a plan but we weren’t really sure if it was a good plan, and really it was after I had our second child and I was listening to a lot of podcast. I was walking everyday on maternity leave and I was listening to podcast every time I would go for a walk and I was like, “We really need to look at this.”

I feel like we need a more set plan as to what we’re doing, especially since you’re at such an integral point of your life where you want to be able to spend extra time with the kids, but you also may feel like you can’t financially do that, and so I think having that, like I said, that objective third party look at what you two are talking about as a couple can be really, really helpful, and also helped us look at a lot of our other financial plan with the investments.

Like, can we get into more real estate investing, are we contributing enough to our 401(k)? Are we doing things that seem like we should be doing? I think that is really, really been a big impact on us on being able to achieve this.

[0:28:55.0] TU: Nate, any other words of wisdom, advice you’d have to folks that are kind of in the thick of it, if you will?

[0:29:00.6] NH: Yeah, I think for me, again, just for me at least, what were just this mindset shift away from being stuck at, “Okay, I only have—this is my income” right? “If I make a $110,000 a year as a pharmacist, that’s all I’ve got and there is no other opportunities and I have to make it work with that money.” I challenge everybody out there, and there’s a thousand and one different ways to do this, but you should find something where the more effort you put in, the more you get out of it, and it doesn’t have to be money, right?

That can be just time, that can be time with your family, that can be things that you enjoy doing, whatever that is, find something that is going to supplement your life that the more effort you put into it, the more reward you get out of it ,and that is just a really great way to set yourself up for success.

[0:29:40.9] TU: I love that. To reiterate what we talked about a little bit ago, the dollars are one piece of that, but don’t underestimate the momentum that comes from that as well, and that momentum is so important as it relates to the financial plan. You’re related to the debt repayment but I always stick to the other parts of the plan as well. Again guys, congratulations on knocking out this huge chunk of debt.

Really incredible to hear the story and the why behind it and how you’re able to do it, excited for what lies ahead of you guys and thanks for taking time to come on the show.

[0:30:10.5] NH: Thanks Tim, we appreciate it.

[0:30:11.6] KH: Thank you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:30:12.3] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information of the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analysis expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 341: 5 Financial Moves to Make in 2024 with Tim Ulbrich

Posted on January 4, 2024January 3, 2024 by YFP Media

Tim Ulbrich, YFP CEO, shares 5 key moves for financial success, emphasizing automation, proactive tax planning, document organization, and continuous learning.

Episode Summary

In the first episode of the New Year, YFP CEO and financial educator, Tim Ulbrich, unveils a financial roadmap for 2024, emphasizing five key moves for achieving financial success and living a rich life. Tim highlights the pivotal role of automation in financial planning, proactive tax planning, the importance of organizing financial documents and the significance of continuous learning. He shares his personal financial goals and the systems he uses to organize and prioritize his financial goals. Tune in to gain insights and actionable steps for mastering your finances in 2024.

About Today’s Guest

Tim Ulbrich is the Co-Founder and CEO of Your Financial Pharmacist. Founded in 2015, YFP is a fee-only financial planning firm and connects with the YFP community of 15,000+ pharmacy professionals via the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast podcast, blog, website resources and speaking engagements. To date, YFP has partnered with 75+ organizations to provide personal finance education.

Tim received his Doctor of Pharmacy degree from Ohio Northern University and completed postgraduate residency training at The Ohio State University. He spent 9 years on faculty at Northeast Ohio Medical University prior to joining Ohio State University College of Pharmacy in 2019 as Clinical Professor and Director of the Master’s in Health-System Pharmacy Administration Program.

Tim is the host of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast which has more than 1 million downloads. Tim is also the co-author of Seven Figure Pharmacist: How to Maximize Your Income, Eliminate Debt and Create Wealth. Tim has presented to over 200 pharmacy associations, colleges, and groups on various personal finance topics including debt management, investing, retirement planning, and financial well-being.

Key Points from the Episode

Financial moves for 2024, including saving and automation. [0:01]
Balancing financial goals with living a rich life today. [3:04]
Proactive tax planning for financial success. [8:21]
Common tax mistakes and planning for tax season. [12:19]
Organizing financial documents for peace of mind. [14:43]
Automating financial planning for maximum profit. [20:19]
Prioritizing sinking funds for various financial goals. [25:21]
Prioritizing savings goals using a systematic approach. [28:24]
Financial moves for 2024, including automation and learning. [34:36]

Episode Highlights

“I get excited with the turning of the page into the new year. Not as a complete reset, but as an opportunity to really look more closely at the priorities that have determined to be most important to me, personally and professionally.” –Tim Ulbrich [02:22]

“Now tax in my opinion, is one of the most under appreciated and overlooked parts of the financial plan.” –Tim Ulbrich [08:27]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRO]

Tim Ulbrich 00:01

Hey everybody, Tim over here. And thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I kick off the new year by covering five financial moves that you can make in 2024 to jumpstart your financial plan. So whether your plan is humming or you’re looking to get refocused and back on track, my hope is that this episode will challenge and motivate you as you set your own goals and plan for 2024. During the show, I talked through why it’s important to set a plan that includes both saving for the future and living a rich life today, I discuss an often overlooked part of the financial plan that perhaps needs more love and attention, why automation should be a key part of your financial planning strategy, and much more. Before we jump in, I want to let you know about a free webinar that I’m hosting coming up on Monday, January 8, at 8pm/Eastern, it’s gonna be a party, and I don’t want you to miss it would love to see you there. During this webinar, master your money in 2024. I’m gonna cover my playbook going from $200,000 in debt to becoming a seven figure pharmacist. Specifically, I’m going to cover how to get clear on your vision for living a rich life, the system and money management routine that we use to get out of debt and save our first million, how to automate your plans, so you aren’t wondering if you’re on track to reach your goals, and how to determine your retirement numbers. If you can’t make it to the webinar live, no worries, we’ll send out a replay to those that register. But if you do attend live, you’ll have a chance to enter a giveaway where two live attendees will be selected for one of the following: $100 Amazon gift card or a YFP bundle including YFP tshirt, YFP pullover and your book of choice. You’ll learn more about the webinar and register your yourfinancialpharmacist.com/2024. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/2024. Alright, let’s jump into today’s episode, five financial moves that you can make in 2024.

Tim Ulbrich 02:03

Hi, there, Tim Ulbrich here and Happy New Year! I’m so excited to be kicking off 2024 with you here on the YFP podcast. Thank you so much for listening and for joining the show. I hope you had some time over the last several weeks to reflect on 2023, think about what’s ahead for 2024, hopefully unwind and spend some time with loved ones as well. I get excited with the turning of the page into the new year. Not as a complete reset, but as an opportunity to really look more closely at the priorities that have determined to be most important to me, personally and professionally. And to make sure that the schedule and activities align accordingly. And I hope the same is true for you. And as we talk about that turn into the new year, as it relates to the financial plan, I’m going to cover five financial moves that I think you should consider implementing here in 2024, if you’re not already doing so, in your own financial journey. We’re going to talk through each one of these in detail. I’m going to talk about how I’ve implemented this in my own life as well as why I think about each of these five areas really is core to your long term financial success.

So let’s kick things off with number one, which is making sure that our financial goals strike the balance between living a rich life today, as well as planning and saving for the future, right? We need to be thinking about tomorrow, we have to be planning and saving for retirement, making sure that we’re focused on moving our net worth in a positive direction, net worth being our assets, minus our liabilities, making sure that we’re taking care of our future selves saving for retirement filling those investment buckets, all of those things are a priority. And I hope you have some plans and goals around those in 2024. But let’s not lose sight of those goals that help keep us focused on living a rich life today while we’re planning and saving for the future, while we’re planning for tomorrow. So perhaps for some of you listening, you’ve long dreamed about a certain experience that has taken a backseat to the busyness of life. Maybe that’s as small as a weekend getaway. For those that have young kids, I know how difficult that can be. Or perhaps for some of you this is a big stretch goal, may be something as big as a year off, traveling the world having those lifetime types of experiences, those bucket list type of experiences that are most important to you.

You know, I think back to Matt and Nicky Javert that we featured on the podcast that traveled the world. Nick Ornella that took a year off from his job as community pharmacist to travel the world. We’ll share both of those episodes in the show notes. So no matter where your experience or goals live, there is no right or wrong. Each of us are on our own journey. Perhaps it’s something that’s experienced focus that hasn’t been a priority that you’d like to make a priority in 2024. But how about those interests, or hobbies that we used to long for and prioritize that have gotten lost again and that busyness of life and work? So for me in 2023 This wasn’t a financial expense, but it was something that brought great joy. One of the activities that I wanted to pursue was getting back into playing volleyball, something I had done competitively throughout high school, something that the busyness of life, other priorities and work just fell by the wayside. And I did that through a local rec league and that brought incredible joy to me throughout the winter. Or what about that side hustle business or project that you’ve been dragging your feet to take the first step on, or perhaps volunteering or giving opportunities that have gotten lost in the shuffle of other priorities of the financial plan.

So let’s make this year the year that we move the needle on both yes, those long term savings and investment goal saving for our future selves, while also prioritizing living a rich life today. Now, here’s the reality when it comes to setting and achieving our goals, many of us probably need to simplify and clarify our goals to put them in focus. There’s lots of competing priorities, regardless of the stage of life that you’re in. And so I would encourage you to put them down on paper, something that we’ve been doing inside of the YFP plus community last month in December of 2023, was writing down our goals in a measurable time oriented way over the next one year, two to three goals in each of the four areas that mean most to us and our own wellness, of course, finance here, we’re talking about one area of wellness, and sharing that out with one another as a mechanism of both accountability to do the activity, as well as hopefully encouragement and accountability and achieving those goals. So put them down on paper, identify two to three financial goals that you want to achieve over the next year. And again, yes, we’ll have some of those objective things, right saving for the future, investing in 401Ks and IRAs and all those types of investments. But I would challenge you: do you also have components of your financial plan that are aligned with living that rich life today? So we’re not talking about being specific, I’m referring to having a what, to having a when, and to having a why. To having a what, a when, and why. So for example, for us in 2024, one of the experiences we’re hoping to achieve is to go out west to visit some of Jess’s family in Montana in the summer of 2024. We know that’s an expense, right? Traveling from Ohio to Montana, we’ve got four young boys, whether we fly whether we drive, experiences along the way, that’s going to be a large expense. So when it comes to us, that might look like something that hey, by June 1 of 2024, we will allocate $5,000, so that we can take that trip out to Montana, and have that experience with our boys and be with our family, though that’s out there, right? We’ve got a what, we’ve got a when, and we’ve got a why. When we have a what, when and why, we can start to not only make that goal come to life, but we can implement that in a monthly plan to see what it’s going to take for us to be able to achieve that goal. And we’ll talk more about that later on this episode.

So again, before you set your goals for the new year. Get clear on the why right? Do your goals motivate you do your goals inspire you and for those that are you that are doing this together with a significant other, a partner or spouse, starting with the goal, starting with the vision, starting with the dreams and getting aligned in those areas, is going to really help the rest of the financial plan to flow. So that’s number one on our list of five financial moves that you can make in the new year, making sure that your goals include and strike the balance between living a rich life today, and planning and saving for the future.

Alright, number two is taking your tax strategy to the next level taking your tax strategy to the next level. Now tax in my opinion, is one of the most under appreciated and overlooked parts of the financial plan. And I want you to think about tax as a thread that runs across your financial plan, perhaps one that maybe you’re not thinking enough about that. Ideally, we are proactively considering and evaluating when we are making our financial moves. Now this sounds so obvious, but I historically previously have viewed tax very much in the rearview mirror, right we have to file by April 15, or thereabouts each year to meet the IRS requirements. We don’t want the IRS coming knocking at our doors. And when we do that we are accounting for what happened in the previous year. Now thankfully, because of our tax team, because of our attention and focus on this topic, I’ve become much more proactive in my tax planning as a part of the financial plan. But in years gone by, we would file our taxes and then we’d hold our breath right? Are we going to get a refund? Or are we going to have taxes that are due do we do we do our withholdings correctly based on differences in charitable giving from one year to the next right all of these factors?

I didn’t have a great picture on come that time of tax filing, what was going to happen, right, and that is less than ideal when it comes to optimizing this part of the financial plan. It’s so again, we need to shift our attention from tax preparation to tax planning. One is proactive. One is reactive right again when we go to file and we complete that paperwork whether you do that yourself whether you hire professional that is looking backwards if we start to think more proactive, hopefully at the point of filing, yes, we’re going to do that work, we have to do that. But we’re then looking ahead to say, hey, based on that information, based on the rest of our financial plans, based on our personal situation, based on changes that we know are coming or goals that we have, what can we be doing strategically in advance throughout the rest of the year, to make sure that we’re paying our fair share of taxes, but no more. So if you don’t already know your key tax numbers, I’m referring to things like marginal tax rate, effective tax rate, adjusted gross income, let’s make a commitment this year to get started and to learn more.

Now, I would love if you would get out the IRS Form 1040, we’ll link to it in the show notes. And just spend 10 to 15 minutes to make sure that you understand the terminology and the flow of dollars. I get it. It’s nerdy, right. And whether you like this subject, or you don’t you do it yourself, you hire someone else. Understanding these numbers and understanding the flow of dollars, and what those terms mean and how it ultimately affects your marginal and your effective tax rate is going to be really important as you think about the strategies, and you’ll be able to directly see how certain strategies you can implement in the financial plan are going to have an impact on the overall taxes that you pay. So as one example, AGI adjusted gross income has huge implications for those that are going through student loan repayment, right income driven repayment calculations, especially for those that are pursuing the Public Service Loan Forgiveness strategy, your adjusted gross income is directly tied to the monthly payment that you’re going to make under student loan. So if we understand that, we can then start to think about, well, hey, are there strategies I can use that can perhaps reduce or lower my AGI adjusted gross income? Not by making less than one do that, but by making contributions to things like traditional 401 K or traditional 403B accounts? Or how about health savings accounts? Right? These are types of things that can reduce our taxable income, therefore reduce our monthly student loan payment, which is a great thing, especially for those that are pursuing tax free loan forgiveness, all the while we’re accruing tax deferred savings into the future. Just one example of how important the proactive planning can be.

Now on episode 309 of the podcast, we’ll link to that in the show notes. Our CPA and Director of Tax Sean Richards covered the top 10 tax blunders that pharmacists make. So whether you have a negative net worth, or you have several million dollars saved, I think you’ll find a lot of value in that episode. Sean, reflecting on the recent tax filing season, where he filed he’ll correct me if I’m wrong, I think over 200 something returns for the different clients that we worked with. And what he saw as the most common mistakes that pharmacists were making. Some of those things, including having a surprise bill, or refund due at filing, probably the most common thing that we see, including some of the surprises that are causing that issue, right. And so what we want to be doing ideally is we’re shooting for zero, we don’t want to have an interest free loan that we have out to the government. And we also don’t want to have a surprise bill that’s due that we’re not ready for. So what are the common things that cause that refund or cause that bill so we talked about that on that episode. Another common mistake he discussed was pharmacists not employing a bunching strategy for charitable giving. So for those that are giving, especially giving at a significant level, and aren’t following the standardized deduction, Is there perhaps some strategy in the in the bunching of charitable contributions that can reduce one’s tax rate. He also talked about a common mistake he saw a new side hustlers and business owners not planning for taxes.

So earning income and being surprised by not paying estimated taxes along the way. We talked about under estimating the power of the HSA, the health savings account and an oldie but a goodie, not factoring in public service loan forgiveness when choosing tax filing status as married, filing separately or married filing jointly. So make sure to check out that episode episode 309. And easy to see as you hear some of those common examples why having a proactive tax plan is worth its weight in gold. Now, as we turn the page into the new year, this is a great time to be planning, right? We’re getting ready to go into tax season that mid April deadline that we talked about. So now is the perfect time to be thinking about the upcoming tax filing season. Our tax team is ready to help, yes with the filing, but also as I discussed here, with proactive year round tax planning. We do that through our comprehensive tax planning service you can visit YFPtax.com to learn more, and to see whether or not those services may be a good fit for you. Alright, so that’s number two on our list of five financial moves to make in the new year. Take your tax strategies the next level.

Number three is button up your financial documents. Button up your financial documents. Now getting organized with your financial records, I believe plays a significant role, not necessarily in terms of moving the needle on your net worth, but in making sure that you and others have access to all of the information that you need to make informed decisions with the financial plan. So think for a minute about all the financial accounts that you have out there, all the different documents, insurance policies that touch a certain part of your financial plan, the list quickly grows to one that is overwhelming. And the more you operate in your own system, the longer time goes by where you’re operating in your own system, the easier it is for you to navigate, but perhaps harder for others to navigate and unravel, should they need to do so in the future. And that’s where this concept of buttoning up your financial documents comes in. That’s where this concept of a legacy folder comes in. I first heard of that idea of a legacy folder, when I took Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University probably 10-12 years ago at this point at our local church. And I remember walking away thinking, wow, that is so simple. So obvious. Why haven’t I done that yet? Why haven’t Jess and I done that yet, as a part of our own plan. So essentially, the idea of a legacy folder if that’s a new concept to you, whether it’s a physical folder, and electronic folder, or a combination of both, it’s a place where you have all of your financial related documents. So in the event of an emergency, others would be able to quickly access your financial situation and not just access but be able to pick up and understand what’s going on and to be able to make key decisions in your absence. So we just went through updating this and shifting everything to an electronic version. So that in the event of something that happens to Jess and I those caring for our boys, along with the financial planning team at YFP have access to all of the necessary information. So here’s how we have organized it certainly not the only way to do it. But here’s how we have organized it in a combination of Google Drive, and a safe at home that has a passwords, all of our passwords stored in a One Password account. So we have nine different sections, I’ll describe them briefly, this sounds overwhelming, it did take a commitment of time to get started. It takes a commitment of time to update. But I will say there’s an incredible feeling of peace and momentum that comes from having this done.

So section one for us is what we refer to as important documents, okay, birth certificates for us, for our kids ,social security cards, marriage certificates, passports, all of these we have in a fireproof safe at home. And we have them just referenced as being there in the electronic version that we share with the financial planning team as well share with those that would take care of the boys in the event of our absence. So that’s section one important document.

Section two is all of our insurance policies and information – auto insurance, homeowners insurance, umbrella insurance, health insurance, long term disability, term life insurance policies for myself, for Jess, for the business, etcetera.

Section three is estate planning documents. So we have a hard copy of these in the safe that have been notarized and electronic version that’s uploaded in the Google Drive. So these are things like the revocable trust agreements, health care power of attorney living will last will and testament.

Section four is the car titles. Now, I’m not sure how valuable these are given our current condition of our Swagger Wagon, but they’re there nonetheless. So section four is the car title.

Section five is our home ownership documents. So this is the deed to the home, our home equity line of credit or HELOC information, we have another copy of homeowners insurance policy here just so it’s all contained in one section.

Section six is a summary of our financial accounts, our net worth tracking sheet, as well as our Social Security statements. So I’m going to talk about more of this in the webinar on January 8, and actually kind of show you the system that we have set up. But here I just have a quick summary, think of it as a table of contents of all of our financial accounts that are out there. So for example, we use Ally for checking and savings accounts, where we have our treasury bonds, where we have our different investment accounts, 401K’s, IRA accounts and so forth. So it’s just a quick summary of what is the account type, where’s the account. And then as I mentioned, we store all the passwords in a separate secure One Password account. We also have in this section, a net worth tracking sheet. So each month, we track all of our assets, all of our liabilities, we add those up assets minus minus liabilities equals net worth. And we’re tracking our progression of net worth over a period of time. So it’s a way that Jess and I can just quickly look at a 20,000 foot view of where’s our overall financial health whereas the overall trajectory of the net worth.

Section seven is our tax returns for personal and business tax returns.

Section eight is all of the records related to the business. So a summary of the different entities, legal documents, operating agreements, buy/sell agreements, etc.

And then section nine is just a miscellaneous so information about utilities and other accounts that don’t fit in the previous sections. Again, it takes time to get that started, but it’s something that you can act upon pretty quickly in the new year, and I encourage you to set an annual recurring reminder, whether that’s the turn of the new year, perhaps it’s daylight savings time or something else, that you just remember to update those documents as needed periodically.

Alright, so that’s number three in our five financial moves to making 2024, button up your financial documents. Number four is my favorite. This is the area that I think has moved the needle the most for Jess and I, in our financial plan over the last decade or so. And that is automation, making sure that you have a system and ideally a system that is working for you. Now, when it comes to automating your financial plan, again, I think just like the legacy folder concept we talked about, it’s so obvious, so effective, so easy to implement. But many people I don’t think are optimizing this. So think of automation, as the mechanism by which your income is working for you. And it’s automatically funding the priorities that you’ve already set, and determined to be most important in advance. Now, I know I’m not alone, when I say that I was feeling for some time that there are multiple financial priorities that are occurring at once that are swirling around in my head. And it can be overwhelming to think about what are those priorities? In what order? And how do we allocate the limited resource of limited income that we have to those? Should we focus on one? Should we focus on two? Should we focus on three? And so much of the stress around the financial plan, I believe, is from all of that unknown, and anxiety swirling in our heads, right? If we can get that down onto paper, and if we can start to put some numbers and a plan to it and prioritize it, we may not always like the outcome of how fast we may or may not be able to achieve those goals. But once we have a plan, once we articulate it, once we know we thought about it, we prioritize it, I think there’s a lot of clarity and momentum that can come from that. So automation helps put those goals into action. It takes the stress out of wondering whether or not they’re going to happen. So whether it’s saving for an emergency fund, whether it’s saving for a vacation, paying down debt, whether it’s student loan debt, consumer debt, auto loan debt, mortgage debt, whatever type of debt, whether it’s saving for retirement, saving for home, saving for investment property, automation helps identify and prioritize these goals and assign your income accordingly. Yes, it takes a bit of time to set up, perhaps not as much as you may think, because you hear about it. But once it’s set up, it provides a long term return on time benefit, but also better yet, as I mentioned peace of mind and feeling of momentum knowing that you’ve thought about prioritize and have a plan in place working itself to fund your goals.

Now, Ramit Sethi talks about this in his book, I Will Teach You To Be Rich, he does an incredible job of teaching automation credit to him. And he says that automating your financial plan will be the single most profitable system that you’ll ever build. And I remember hearing that and thinking, Man, that’s a big, big promise, right? But it is 100% true. Automating your financial plan will be the single most profitable system that you’ll ever built. So if you’re not already doing this, I want you to imagine a future state. Imagine a future state where your financial goals and priorities are clearly defined. You’ve determined how much of your monthly budget is available for these goals. And you have a system in place to automatically fund these goals every month so you get paid and your money is being distributed automatically. Paycheck comes in dollars are being funded to the goals that you’ve already determined and prioritized to be most important. Okay, so what does this look like? Here’s how Jess and I are currently implementing this. Now, previously, we adhere to a zero based budget, which I think really did help us laser in and focus on our expenses and account for every single dollar that we earned. That’s the premise of a zero based budget. I think that method works out really well, especially when you’re getting started or feel like you need to get back on track. But over time, we’ve loosened this up knowing that once we account for all of our monthly commitments, right, our monthly commitments, being mortgage insurance, property taxes, giving, groceries, subscriptions, utilities, etc. Once we account for those, and those are largely fixed, outside of some variation in utility payments, we have a certain amount of funds after we account for those things that we know can be allocated in two general buckets with several options within those two general buckets. So what are those two general buckets? General bucket number one is what we call everything else. So this includes things like gas, miscellaneous trips to the store, family experiences, family entertainment, eating out, et cetera. And we track this, Jess and I track this, in a shared Google Sheet. And I’ll talk more about this in the webinar on the eighth and what the system looks like. That just helps us make sure we don’t overspend this category. Okay, so we started with our total income. We define our total take home income. We then define, as I mentioned, all of those fixed expenses and aren’t really shifting too much from month to month – mortgage, insurance, property taxes, giving, groceries, subscriptions, etc. And in days gone by that would also have been debt payments. And then what’s left over, we’re going to allocate into two general buckets and what I’m talking about is this first general bucket of everything else.

The second general bucket is what we think of as our sinking funds. It’s the second bucket of funds that we want to predefine prioritize, set allocation amounts, and then set up auto-contribution of funds. So what do I mean by the sinking funds? Okay, so for us in 2024, the areas that we’re focused on are funding an HSA, I’ll talk about each one of these more detail, finishing our basement, funding that 2024 vacations, as well as saving for a summer vacation 2025, funding our Roth IRAs, funding the next car purchase, and then thinking more about the boys 529 funds for college savings. So for us in 2024, as we sat down and thought about what is the greatest priority, those are the things that rose to the top that we wanted to fund with these bucket two funds that I’m referring to, right, the sinking funds. So in this scenario, and within our discussion of automation, we would look to estimate the available pool of funds per month or per year divided by 12, we would then prioritize the list, determine the allocation order in the amounts. And then as I mentioned, we would automatically fund those and set up a recurring contribution. So for example, let’s walk through this let’s say that we assume that for the year, let’s assume we have $3,000 a month, or $36,000 for the year available to disperse across these bucket two goals. So again, I’m not talking about the expenses that we know we’re going to fund every month, we talked about that mortgage, insurance, etc., property taxes. I’m not talking about that everything else bucket that we know a certain amount for family experiences, for gas, other trips that we may take out. I’m referring to this bucket of sinking funds.

So let’s assume we have $3,000 a month or $36,000 a year to put towards the sinking funds. Now for some of you listening, you may think, Hey, we’ve got a lot more. That’s great, right? We want to be intentional with that. And for some of you, you may be thinking, Wow, we got a lot less, right? And so we have to focus on again, everyone is on their own journey. So how do we take this $36,000 a year? How do we take this $3,000 a month if we use that as an example, and disperse that across the different goals I just talked about: HSA funds, finishing the basement, Roth IRAs, car fund, etc. So for us, the HSA is really a top priority, not just because of the triple tax benefits. I know we’ve heard about that on that on the show before. But since we have a high deductible health plan, and we have four active boys, right, so we really need to minimize our risk there. And we’ve got a really high deductible as well as a high out of pocket max. So we know that we want to max that out and 2024. That’s $8,300 a year as a family contribution. And so we were going to do that as priority number one. So once we fund that HSA< again, we started with $36,000 a year, we fund, fully fund the HSA $8,300/year, we’re now left with $27,700. So working down the list, what’s priority number two? So for us priority number two is finishing the basement. Now we’ve been planning for this for years. And we’ve decided that based on this phase of life we’re in we’ve got boys ages 12 to four, it’s a great time that we want to make the most out of the space and we want to really make this project happen. For us, it’s the example I’ve referenced in financial move number one, right? Finding that balance between saving for the future and living a rich life today. Now, does finishing the basement financially make the most sense, right? Does does it objectively may make the most sense when we compare it against other types of things like Roth IRAs, or 529 funds, and be able to save and invest for the future? The answer is no. Right? It doesn’t objectively rank higher, any money that you’re going to save and compound over time is going to beat any expense, right? That’s just an objective fact unless that money loses a significant amount as you invest it. But as we step back, and as we look at for our family, finding that balance between living a rich life today, as well as planning for the future, as we look at the progress we’ve already made towards retirement savings, we’ve decided that in fact, we’re going to make this a priority over some other investment and savings accounts. Now, to be frank, I wish we would have done this sooner. And so we’re going to pull the trigger and make this happen in 2024. So for this example, let’s assume that it’s going to cost $25,000 to do the project. And let’s assume we already have $15,000 saved so we need $10,000 more to get the project done. So again, we started with $36,000. We fully funded the HSA at $8300. We’re going to now add another $10,000 in the basement. So we’re left over with $17,700.

Moving down the list of priority number three. So continuing this theme of finding that balance between living a rich life today and tomorrow, we want to prioritize two family experiences in 2024. One being a summer trip to the Fingerlakes that we take with my family. We’ve done this for several years. And another being a trip out west to Montana, I mentioned that a bit earlier. So let’s assume for both of those, that’s going to cost a combined $7,000. So after we subtract that, we now have $10,700 left.

Moving down the list. Next up for us is Jess’s Roth IRA, that’s going to cost $7,000 to fund and max that out and 2024. After we do that, we’re left with $3700, then let’s just round this out by assuming we’ll allocate the remaining amount to my Roth IRA to do a partial fund. Now, you can see this system and process that we worked through right, we identified the total estimated annual amount, you can do the same thing, divide that by 12 for monthly. We listed out the goals, and we match those up to prioritize accordingly.

Now, here’s the disappointing part. Or perhaps, depending on you look at it, it may be exciting is as I do. In this example, we have fully funded several goals, right? We fully funded the HSA, we fully funded finishing the basement, we fully funded to 2024 vacations, we fully funded just as RIA, we partially funded my Roth IRA. But we had several things that I mentioned that were left unfunded, okay? The kids 529 accounts and the summer 2025 vacation, as well as the next car fund. So we have a couple options here. We can go back to the drawing board and redistribute right, lower some of the other ones and partially fund some, and then have others that we are able to partially fund. Or we can stay as is knowing that if additional funds become available, right, whether that’s in the form of for us additional income, it could be tax refunds, although hopefully we’re doing a good job planning and that’s not the case. It could be side hustle income for some of you. It could be picking up extra hours, it could be gifts that you receive, whatever might be the additional income, we know that we have a system and a list that is prioritize that if that income comes in, we know exactly where we’re going to allocate that. And that is the power of automation. That is the power of having a system.

So one step further, what does this practically look like for us in terms of implementation? And I’m going to show much more of this during the webinar on the 8th, I’m really excited about that. So we use Ally for all of our online banking. Now, this is not a commercial for Ally. We really liked them. We’ve used them for several years. I like the capability they have with saving buckets and other features. But you can build a system like this, and many different types of savings accounts. So for us direct deposit from work income goes into Ally, goes into a checking account. And since we know the amount required per month to allocate to the goals we decided upon, there is then a bucket labeled for each of these goals inside of Ally. So the transfer of funds goes from checking account where the direct deposit comes in to savings account. And then within the savings account, we have a predefined bucket. So essentially what this looks like is you’ve got a certain amount of dollars, let’s say $30, or $40, or $50,000 in a savings account. But once you click into that, you see all these different sub-buckets for things like vacation, for a basement remodel. And again, you can do a multitude of different buckets, I think you can do up to 30 or so inside of Ally. In the case of for us, the IRA, the Roth IRA and HSA savings, you know, we could put those in the bucket as well inside the savings account, but we’re gonna set those up to be an auto contribution directly into the investment account, right? We want those dollars working for us as quickly as possible. So again, imagine that flow you get paid, right, we’ve identified the buckets that auto contribute into the buckets, because we know we’ve already accounted for it inside of the rest of the bucket and rest of the budget. And then that’s working for us once we have the system set up. Now depending on when you get paid for us, it’s the first of the month. But for you it might be two times a month. But regardless, once you know when you get paid and once that’s consistent, we know that anytime after the first so we get paid around the first of the month, as well as the 15th. But we use the first as our metric for when we’re going to auto fund these goals. So anytime after the first it could be the third, it could be the fourth, I think I have most of them set up on the fourth, we can have that auto transfer established to go from checking to savings to the bucket leaving only in checking what is left to pay off the credit card each month. And so that all other dollars, they have a purpose, right? They’re being defined and allocated towards a goal. That is the system of automation. And I’m gonna talk more about that in the webinar on the 8th. I’m gonna give you some visuals and show you how to set up so you can make the most of it for your own financial plan. So that’s the fourth financial move. I think the one probably that can move the needle the most. Automate your financial plan have a system in place.

And finally number five is set your learning plan. Now when it comes to personal finance, I believe strongly that there is no arrived with the financial plan. Right? This is constantly evolving. It’s constantly changing. And a commitment to ongoing learning and having the humility to understand that there’s much to learn, and that mistakes are inevitable, is really key to long term success. So next week episode of the podcast, I’m going to feature ten personal finance books that I think you can/should read in 2024 that have had a profound impact on my own journey. So make sure to tune into that episode. I don’t want to spoil the goods here. But it’s important that you define that learning plan and path that works best for you.

One of the greatest advantages that we have of living in the 21st century is that we have access to learning just about anything that we want. And often we can do it at a low or no cost, right. Thank you very much to our local public library. So whether it’s reading books, great to have at it! If it’s podcasts, blogs, videos, there’s many options out there, find the learning path, that means the most to you and has the significance and really engages you in the learning process. And I would encourage you -learning is one thing, right? But learning plus action plus accountability is really where things start to happen. So that’s number five of our five financial moves to make it 2024. Set an intentional plan around what you want to learn in this new year. And then determine what are those resources, what are the blogs? What are the books? What are the podcasts that are going to help you get there and I hope YFP will be an important part of that journey.

Alright, before we wrap up today’s episode, I want to remind you of that free webinar I’m hosting on Monday January 8 at 8pm/Eastern: Master your Money. This webinar, Master your Money in 2024 and a cover my playbook going from $200,000 in debt to becoming a seven figure pharmacist. Specifically I’m gonna cover how to get clear on your vision for living a rich life, to make sure we had that vision in place, the system and money management that I’ve used that we’ve used Jess and I, to get out of debt and save our first million. How to automate your plan. I’ll show you step by step process for automation. So you’re wondering if you’re on track to achieve your goals, and how to determine your retirement webinar. As I mentioned before, if you can’t make it live, no worries, we’ll send out a replay afterwards. But if you can make it live, we’d love to see you there and you’ll then be eligible for a chance to enter a giveaway. Two live attendees will be selected to either receive $100 Amazon gift card or a YFP bundle including a YFP t-shirt, YFP pullover and a YFP book of your choice. You can learn more at register at your yourfinancialpharmacist.com/2024. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/2024. Cheers to a great New Year. Have a great rest of your day.

[DISCLAIMER]

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. information to the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 339: YFP Podcast Replay – Why Negotiation is an Important Part of Your Financial Plan

Posted on December 21, 2023December 21, 2023 by YFP Media

Tim Ulbrich & Tim Baker talk about negotiation, why it’s an important part of the financial plan, the goals of negotiation, and tips for conducting an effective negotiation.

Episode Summary

Tim Baker joins Tim Ulbrich on this episode to dig into all things negotiation. Negotiation is the process of discovery and a way to advocate for yourself and what your needs are. Tim Baker explains that negotiation is an important part of your financial plan for many reasons. He explains that settling for a lower salary can have a significant impact on your present and future finances because you may accrue less in retirement savings and potentially other investments. However, negotiation doesn’t just lie in your salary. You can also negotiate benefits like flex scheduling, paid time off as well as potentially parental leave and professional development opportunities, among others.

Tim Baker shares that 99% of hiring managers are expecting new hires to negotiate and build their initial offer as such. Many don’t end up negotiating because they don’t want to risk the offer being revoked, but Tim says that the majority of the time you should present a counter offer.

Tim then digs into the stages of the negotiation process that include the interview, receiving an offer, presenting a counter offer and accepting the offer and position. He shares many strategies and tips for each stage as well as additional techniques to use throughout the process.

About Today’s Guest

Key Points from the Episode

Negotiation can be a key part of the financial plan
Income is the lifeblood of the financial plan.
Learn ways to grow and protect income.
Advocating for yourself is important, and it’s not always just about salary.
A lower salary can have long term consequence down the road.
Employers expect some negotiations with candidates.
Salary alone should not be looked at in a vacuum; many factors can contribute a more desirable work positon.
A lot of time and effort goes into finding the right position for a job, so when an offer is made it is likely not going to be derailed by candidate asking for a higher salary.
A good candidate asks questions and listens well.
Make sure you get offers in writing.
Never lie in an interview about current salary range.
Using a precise number versus a rounded number in a counter offer has more success.
Using the anchoring technique to provide a salary range can help you land the salary you ultimately desire.
Asking a calibrated question is a question with really no fixed answer that gives the illusion of control.
Using “how”, “when”, “why” calibrated questions can be helpful in showing what you’re really trying to achieve without causing emotions to rise.
Mirroring technique is repeating 1-3 words back to the employer to show you are listening well and in turn, making them feel respected and understood.
Labeling and validating emotions technique allow you to hear what is going on in an organization while remaining neutral.
The accusation audit is a technique that’s used to identify and label probably the worst thing that your counterpart could say about it.

Episode Highlights

“Yeah, so negotiation, you know, it’s really a process of discovery. It really shouldn’t be viewed as a battle. It’s really a process of discovery. It’s kind of that awkward conversation that you should be obligated to have because you know, if you don’t want to advocate for yourself professionally, who will?” – Tim Baker

“And I believe this first stat comes from SHRM, which is the Society for Human Resource Management. So I think this is like the biggest association for like HR and Human Resource personnel in the country. And the stat that I use is that 99% of hiring managers expect prospective hires to negotiate. So if you think about that, you know, the overwhelming majority expect you the prospective hire to negotiate. And they build their initial offers as such.” – Tim Baker

“So typically most jobs, there’s — obviously there’s an application process, there’s interviews, there’s second interviews, there’s maybe on-site visits, there’s kind of looking at all the candidates and then extending offers. If you get to that offer stage, you’re pretty — they’ve identified as you’re the person that they want. So sometimes a little bit of back-and-forth is not going to derail any such deal. So it’s really, really important to understand that.” -Tim Baker

“So when you get that interview, what I say is typically you want to talk less, listen more and learn more. Typically, the person that is talking the most is not in control of the conversation. The one that’s listening and asking good questions is in control.” -Tim Ulbrich

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

(INTRO)

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker, welcome back to the show.

Tim Baker: Yeah, happy to be here. How’s it going, Tim?

Tim Ulbrich: It’s going. Excited to talk negotiation, something we discuss a lot in presentations, a lot I know that you discuss with clients as a part of the financial plan, but we haven’t addressed it directly on the show before. So I’m excited that we get a chance to dig into this topic. And we know that negotiation can carry a lot of power and can be used across the board really in life, right? It could be negotiating terms for a new or existing job position, buying a car, buying a house, negotiating with your kids or spouse — kidding, not kidding as we’ll talk about here in a little bit. So we’re going to focus predominantly on salary negotiation, but really these techniques can be applied to many areas of the financial plan and really life as a whole. So Tim, I know that for you, negotiation is a key piece of the financial plan. And you and our CFPs over at YFP talk about negotiation in the context of financial planning, which I would say is probably not the norm of the financial planning industry and services. So let’s start with this: Why is negotiation such an important piece of the financial plan?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think if we look at YFP’s mission, YFP’s mission is to empower pharmacists to achieve financial freedom. So I think the building blocks of that really is kind of what we do day-in and day-out with clients at YFP Planning. And what I typically, or the way that we typically approach a financial plan is we really want to help the client grow and protect their income, which is the lifeblood of the financial plan. Without income, nothing moves. But we know that probably more importantly than that is grow and protect the balance sheet, the net worth, which means increasing assets efficiently and decreasing liabilities efficiently and ultimately moving the net worth number in the right direction. So those are both quantitative things. But then qualitatively, we want to make sure that we’re keeping all the goals in mind, so grow and protect income and net worth while keep the goals in mind. So to me, that’s our jam, you know? So when I say — when somebody asks me a question like we do the Ask a YFP CFP, and I always say, “Well, it depends.” A lot of it really depends on those foundational, like where are we at with the balance sheet and where do we want to go? Meaning what are our goals? What’s our why? What’s the life plan, what’s a wealthy life for you and how can we support that with the financial plan? So to go back to your question, my belief is that the income is a big part of that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Tim Baker: And what I’ve found working with many, many pharmacists is sometimes pharmacists are not great at advocating for themselves. You know, most of the people that I talk to when we talk about salary negotiation, they’re like, eh, I’m just thankful I have a job, and I’m in agreement with that. But sometimes a little bit of a negotiation and having some of the skills that we’ll talk about today to better advocate for yourself is important. And a lot of this stuff is not necessarily just for salary. It can be for a lot of different things. But to me, what I saw as a need here, same thing like most financial planners don’t walk you through kind of home purchase and what that looks like because most financial planners are working with people in their 50s, 60s and 70s. So that was a need for a lot of our clients who were like, “Hey, Tim, I’m buying this house. I don’t really know where to start. So we provide some education and some recommendations and advice around that. Same thing with salary, I kept seeing like well, maybe I took the job too quickly or I didn’t advocate for myself, so that’s really where we want to provide some education and advice, again, to have a better position from an income perspective.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think it’s a great tool to have in your toolbag, you know. And I think as we’ll talk about here, the goal is not to be an expert negotiator. There’s lots of resources that are out there that can help with this and make it tangible and practical, one of which we’ll draw a lot of the information today, I know you talk with clients, a resource I love, “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss. But I’m glad you mentioned, you know, I think there is often a sentiment — I know I’ve felt in myself where you know what, I’m glad to have a position, I’m glad to be making a good income. But that can be true and you still can be a good person and you still can negotiate and advocate for yourself and the value you bring to the organization.

Tim Baker: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: So I hope folks will hear that and not necessarily think that negotiation is bad and as we’ll talk about here in a moment, I think really can have a significant impact when you think about it as it relates to earnings over your career and what those additional earnings could mean. So Tim, break it down for us. What is negotiation and really, digging further, why is it important?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so negotiation, you know, it’s really a process of discovery. It really shouldn’t be viewed as a battle. It’s really a process of discovery. It’s kind of that awkward conversation that you should be obligated to have because you know, if you don’t want to advocate for yourself professionally, who will? And maybe you have a good mentor or something like that, but to me, the negotiation, again, is really to discover what you want and kind of what your counterpart, which might be a boss or a hiring manager or something like that. And it’s really important because settling for a lower salary can have really major financial consequences, both immediately and down the road. And you typically — raises that you receive are typically based on a percentage of your salary, so hey, we’re going to give you a 3% raise this year, a 5% raise. If you start off with a salary that you’re not happy with, then obviously that’s a problem. Accrue less in retirement savings, so that TSP, that 401k, 403b, again, you typically are going to get some type of match in a lot of cases, and then you’re going to put a percentage. So again, that could potentially be lower. But it’s not just about salary. It can be — I think another mistake that sometimes people make is that they’ll say, oh wow, I was making $125,000 and I’m taking a job that’s paying me $135,000 and they take a major step back on some of the non-salary things like benefits and flex scheduling and time off and things like that. But you know, you really want to make sure that compensation package that you have, you know, you’re happy with. Because underpaid really can make you feel resentful over the long run. So you want to make sure that you’re, again, right now we’re filming in the midst of a pandemic and the economy and the job market is tough, but you still want to advocate for yourself and make sure you’re getting the best compensation package that you can.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and as we’ll talk about here in a little bit, I think if we frame this differently, then maybe our understanding, our preconceived beliefs — you know, you mentioned it’s not a battle, you know, I think the goal is that you’re trying to come to an agreement or an understanding. And as we’ll talk about here, many employers are likely expecting this. And that number, in terms of those that are expecting versus those that are actually engaging in the conversation from an employee standpoint is very different.

Tim Baker: Sure.

Tim Ulbrich: So I think that might help give us confidence to be able to initiate some of those, and we’ll talk about strategies to do that. I do want to give one example, though, Tim, real quick. You had mentioned obviously if somebody earns less and receive small raises or they accrue less in retirement savings, that can have a significant impact. And I went down the rabbit hole prepping for this episode of just looking at a quick example of this where you have two folks that let’s say they both start working at the age of 28, they retire at their 65, so same starting point, same retirement age. Let’s assume they get a 3% cost of living adjustment every year for their career just to keep it simple. The only difference here is that one starts at $100,000 and one starts at $105,000. So because of either what they asked for in negotiations, whatever be the case, one starts $5,000 greater than the other. And if you play this out, same starting age, same ending age, same cost of living adjustments, one starts at a higher point, when it’s all said and done, one individual has about $300,000 more of earnings than the other. And this of course does not include differences that you also have because of higher salary. If you had a match, that would increase, that would compound, that would grow. If you were to switch jobs, you’re at a better point to now negotiate for a higher salary, all other benefits that aren’t included. But the significance of the starting point I think is something to really look at those numbers that often where you start can inform where you’re going, not only from cost of living adjustments but also future employment, right? So we know that where you start if you get a 3% raise, it’s of course going to be based off that number. If you decide to leave that employer and you go to another one, what do they ask you? How much did you make? You’re using that number. So that starting point is so critical, and I hope that new practitioners might even find some confidence in that to be able to engage in discussions knowing how significant those numbers can be over a career. So in that one example, that starting point is a difference of about $300,000. Crazy, right, when you look at it over a long time period.

Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s nuts. And I’d play the devil’s advocate, on the other side of that is again, so much — just like everything else with the financial plan, you can’t look at it in a vacuum. We’ve had clients take a lot less money and really, it was because of the student loans and how that would affect their strategy in terms of forgiveness and things like that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Tim Baker: So it is multifactorial. It’s definitely something that it should really be examined. And I think, again, when you look at the overall context of the financial plan. But to your point, Tim, that starting salary and really how you negotiate throughout the course of your career is going to be utterly important. And again, what we say is — we kind of downplay the income because I think so much of what’s kind of taught is like, oh, six-figure salary, you’ll be OK. And that’s not true. But then it is true that it is the lifeblood of the financial plan, so I think if you have a plan and you’re intentional with what you’re doing, that’s where you can really start making moves with regard to your financial outlook.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I’m glad you said that about salary shouldn’t be looked at in a silo. I mean, just to further that point, you’ve alluded to it already, these numbers don’t matter if there’s other variables that are non-monetary that matter more. Right? Whether that be time off or satisfaction in the workplace, opportunities that you have, feelings of accomplishment. I mean, the whole list of things you can’t necessarily put a number to, I mean, I would argue if those are really important, you’ve got to weigh those against whatever this number would be. And there’s a certain point where the difference in money isn’t worth it if there’s other variables that are involved, which usually there are. Hopefully we can get both, right? Salary and non-salary items.

Tim Baker: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: So interesting stats about negotiation, I’ve heard you present before on this topic, but I’d like you to share with our audience in terms of managers that are expecting hires to negotiate versus those that do. Talk us through some of those as I think it will help us frame and maybe change our perception on employers expecting and our willingness to engage in these conversations.

Tim Baker: Yeah, and I really need to cite this one. And I believe this first stat comes from SHRM, which is the Society for Human Resource Management. So I think this is like the biggest association for like HR and Human Resource personnel in the country. And the stat that I use is that 99% of hiring managers expect prospective hires to negotiate. So if you think about that, you know, the overwhelming majority expect you the prospective hire to negotiate. And they build their initial offers as such. So the example I give to clients is like, hey, we have a position that we could pay anywhere from $110,000 to $130,000, knowing that you know, Tim, if I’m offering this job to you, knowing that you’re probably going to negotiate with me. I’m going to offer it to you for $110,000 knowing that I have a little bit of wiggle room if you kind of come back with a counteroffer. But what a lot of my clients or people do that I talk with is they’ll just say, yes, I found a job, crappy job market, happy to get started, ready to get started. And they’re either overly enthusiastic to accept a job or they’re just afraid that a little bit of negotiation would hurt their outlook. So with that in mind is that you — the offers I think are built in a way that you should be negotiating and trying to, again, advocate for yourself.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and so if people are presenting positions often with a range in salary expecting negotiation, I hope that gives folks some confidence in OK, that’s probably expected and maybe shifts some of the perception away from, this whole thing could fall apart, which it could, right? At any given point in time, especially depending on the way you conduct yourself in that negotiation, which I think is really, really important to consider. But I think what we want to try to avoid, Tim, back to a comment you made earlier, is any resentment as well. I mean, if we think about this from a relationship standpoint, we want the employee to feel valued, and we want the employer to have a shot at retaining this individual long-term. So it’s a two-way relationship.

Tim Baker: Yeah, and it kind of comes up to where we were talking about what is the goal of negotiation. And really, the goal of negotiation is to come to some type of agreement.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: The problem with that is that people are involved in this. And we as people are emotional beings, so if we feel like that we’re treated unfairly or we don’t feel safe and secure or if we’re not in control of the conversation, our emotions can get the best of us. So that’s important. So again, there’s some techniques that you can utilize to kind of mitigate that. But you know, to allude to your point about negotiating, the fear to kind of potentially mess up the deal, there’s a stat that says 32% don’t negotiate because they’re too worried about losing the job offer.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: I know, Tim, like we can attest to this because with our growth at YFP, we’ve definitely done some human resourcing, to use that as a verb, and hiring and things like that of late. And I’ve got to say that the — I think that some of this can be unfounded just because there’s just so much blood, sweat and tears that goes into finding the right people to kind of surround yourself with and bring into an organization that to me, a little bit of back-and-forth is not going to ultimately lose the job. So typically most jobs, there’s — obviously there’s an application process, there’s interviews, there’s second interviews, there’s maybe on-site visits, there’s kind of looking at all the candidates and then extending offers. If you get to that offer stage, you’re pretty — they’ve identified as you’re the person that they want. So sometimes a little bit of back-and-forth is not going to derail any such deal. So it’s really, really important to understand that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and as the employer, I mean, we’ve all heard about the cost statistics around retention. So as an employer, when I find that person, I want to retain them. That’s my goal, right? I want to find good talent, I want to retain good talent. So I certainly don’t want somebody being resentful about the work that they’re doing, the pay that they have, and so I think if we can work some of that out before beginning, come to an agreement, it’s a good fit for us, good fit for them, I think it’s also going to help the benefit of hopefully the long-term relationship of that engagement. So it’s one thing to say we should be doing it. It’s another thing to say, well how do we actually do this? What are some tips and tricks for negotiation? So I thought it would be helpful if we could walk through some of the stages of negotiation. And through those stages, we can talk, as well as beyond that, what are some actual strategies to negotiation. Again, another shoutout to “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss. I think he does an awesome job of teaching these strategies in a way that really helps them come alive and are memorable.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: So Tim, let’s talk about the first stage, the interview stage, and what are some strategies that those listening can take when it comes to negotiation in this stage.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so when I present these concepts to a client, I kind of said that the four stages of negotiation are fairly vanilla, you know? And the first one is that interview. So when you get that interview, what I say is typically you want to talk less, listen more and learn more. Typically, the person that is talking the most is not in control of the conversation. The one that’s listening and asking good questions is in control. And I kind of think back to some of our recent hires, and you know, the people that we identified as like top candidates, I’m like, man, their interviews went really well. And when I actually think back and slow down, it’s really — I think that they went really well because it’s really that person asking good questions and then me just talking. And that’s like the perception. So in that case, the candidate was asking us good questions and we’re like, yeah, this was a great interview because I like to hear myself talk or I just get really excited about what we’re doing at YFP. So I think if you can really focus on your counterpart, focus on the organization, whether it’s the hospital or whatever it is and learn and then really pivot to the value that you bring, I think that’s going to be most important. So you know, understanding what some of their pain points are, whether it’s retention or maybe some type of care issue or whatever that may be, you can kind of use that to your advantage as you’re kind of going through the different stages of negotiation. But the more that the other person talks, the better. I would say in the interview stage, one of the things that often comes up that can come up fairly soon is the question about salary. And you know, sometimes that is — it’s kind of like a time savings. So it’s a “Hey, Tim, what are you looking for in salary?” If you throw out a number that’s way too high, I’m not even going to waste my time. And what I tell clients is like you typically, you want to — and we’ll talk about anchoring. You really want to avoid throwing a number out for a variety of reasons. So one of the deflections you can use is, “Hey, I appreciate the question, but I’m really trying to figure out if I’d be a good fit for your organization. Let’s talk about salary when the time comes.” Or the other piece of it is it’s just you’re not in the business of offering yourself a job. And what I mean by that it’s their job to basically provide an offer. So, “Hey, my current employer doesn’t really allow me to kind of reveal that kind of information. What did you have in mind?” Or, “We know that pharmacy is a small business, and I’m sure your budget is reasonable. What did you have in mind?”

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Tim Baker: So at the end of the day, it’s their job to extend the offer, not you to kind of negotiate against yourself, which can happen. You know? I had — we signed on a client here at YFP Planning yesterday, and we were talking about negotiation. I think it had to do with a tax issue. And you know, he basically said this is what he was looking for and when he got into the organization, I think he saw the number that was budgeted for it, and it was a lot more. So again, if you can deflect that — and I tell a story, when I first got out of the Army, I kind of knew this. But when I first got out of the Army, I was interviewing for jobs. I was in an interview, and I deflected and I think the guy asked me again, and I deflected. I think he asked me for like — maybe he asked me four times, and I just wound up giving him a range that was like obnoxious, $100,000-200,000 or something like that. But to me, that — and the interview didn’t go well after that, but to me, it was more about clearing the slate instead of actually learning about me and seeing if I was a good fit. So you never want to lie if they ask about your current salary, you never want to lie. But you definitely want to deflect and move to things like OK, can I potentially be a good fit for your organization and then go from there.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think deflection takes practice, right?

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: I don’t think that comes natural to many of us.

Tim Baker: Absolutely. Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: This reminds me, so talk less, listen more for any Hamilton folks we have out there, which is playing 24/7 in my house these days, the soundtrack. I’m not going to sing right now, but talk less, smile more, don’t let them know what you’re against or what you’re for. So I think that’s a good connection there to the interview stage. So next hopefully comes good news, company wants to hire you, makes an offer. So Tim, talk us through this stage. What should we be remembering when we actually have an offer on the table?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think you definitely want to be appreciative and thankful. Again, when a company gets to a point where they’re an extending you an offer, that’s huge. I remember when I got, again, my first offer out of the Army — because again, you didn’t really have a choice when you’re in the Army. Well, I guess you do have a choice, but they’re not like, “Here’s a written offer for your employment in this platoon somewhere in Iraq.” But I remember getting the first offer. I’m like, man, this is awesome. Shows your salary and the benefits and things like that, so you want to be appreciable and thankful — appreciative and thankful. You don’t want to be — you want to be excited but not too overexcited. So you don’t want to appear to be desperate. What I tell clients, I think the biggest piece here is make sure you get it in writing. And I have a story that I tell because if it’s not in writing, and what I essentially said is it didn’t happen. So again, using some personal experience here, first job out of the Army, I had negotiated basically an extra week of vacation because I didn’t want to take a step back in that regard. And I got the offer, and the extra week wasn’t there. So I talked to my future boss about it, and he said, “You know what, I don’t want to go back to headquarters and ruffle some feathers, so why don’t we just take care of that on site here?” And this was the job I had in Columbus, Ohio. And I said, “Yeah, OK, I don’t really want to ruffle feathers either.” The problem with that was when he got replaced, when he was terminated eight months later, that currency burned up fairly quickly. So I didn’t have that extra week of vacation. So if it’s not written down, it never happened. So you want to make sure that you get it in writing and really go over that written offer extensively. So some employers, they’ll extend an offer, and they want a decision right away. I would walk away from that. To me, a job change or something of that magnitude, I think it warrants a 24-, if not a minimum 48-hour timeframe for you to kind of mull it over. And this is typically where I come in and help clients because they’ll say, “Hey, Tim, I got this offer. What do you think?” And we go through it and we look at benefits and we look at the total compensation package and things like that. But you want to ask for a time, some time to review everything. And then definitely adhere to the agreed-upon deadline to basically provide an answer or a counteroffer or whatever the next step is for you.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think too, the advice to get it in writing helps buy you time, you know? I think you ask for it anyways. And I think the way you approach this conversation, you’re setting up the counteroffer, right? So the tone that you’re using, it’s not about being arrogant here, it’s not about acting like you’re not excited at all. I think you can strike that balance between you’re appreciative, you’re thankful, you’re continuing to assess if it’s a good fit for you and the organization, you want some time, you want it in writing, and you’re beginning to set the stage. And I think human behavior, right, says if something is either on the table or pulled away slightly, the other party wants it a little bit more, right?

Tim Baker: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: So if I’m the employer and I really want someone and I’m all excited about the offer and I’m hoping they’re going to say yes and they say, “Hey, I’m really thankful for the offer. I’m excited about what you guys are doing. I need some time to think about x, y and z,” or “I’m really thinking through x, y or z,” like all of a sudden, that makes me want them more. You know?

Tim Baker: Sure.

Tim Ulbrich: So I think there’s value in setting up what is that counteroffer. So talk to us about the counteroffer, Tim. Break it down and some strategies to think about in this portion.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so you know, the counteroffer is I would say — the majority of the time, you should counter in some way. I think you’re expected to make a counter. And again, we kind of back that up with some stats. But you also, you need to know when not to kind of continue to go back to the negotiating table or when you’re asking or overasking. So I think research is going to be a good part of that. And what I tell clients is like, I can give them a very non-scientific — I’ve worked with so many pharmacists that I can kind of say, eh, that sounds low for this community pharmacy industry, or whatever, hospital, in this area. So your network, which could be someone like me, it could be colleagues, but it could also be things like Glass Door, Indeed, Salary.com. So you want to make sure that your offer, your counteroffer is backed up in some type of fact. And really, knowing how to maximize your leverage. So if you are — if you do receive more than one substantial offer from multiple employers, negotiating may be appropriate if the two positions are comparable. Or if you have tangible evidence that the salary is too low, you have a strong position to negotiate. So I had a client that knew that newly hired pharmacists were being paid more than she was, and she had the evidence to show that and basically they went back and did a nice adjustment. But again, I think as you go through — the way that we kind of do this with clients is we kind of go through the entire letter and the benefits. And I basically just highlight things and have questions about match or vacation time or salary, things like that. And then we start constructing it from there. So if you look at, again, the thing where most people will start is salary is you really want to give — when you counter, you really want to give a salary range rather than like a number. So what I say is, if you say, “Hey, Tim, I really want to make $100,000.” I kind of said it’s almost like the Big Bad Wolf that blows the house down. Like all of those zeros, there’s no substance to that. But if you said, “Hey, I really want to make $105,985,” the Journal of the Experimental Social Psychology says that using a precise number instead of a rounded number gives it a more potent anchor.

Tim Ulbrich: You’ve done your homework, right?

Tim Baker: Yeah. You know what you’re worth, you know what the position’s worth, it’s giving the appearance of research. So I kind of like — it’s kind of like the Zach Galfinakis meme that has all of the equations that are floating, it’s kind of like that. But the $100,000, you can just blow that house over. So and I think — so once you figure out that number, then you kind of want to range it. So they say if you give a range of a salary, then it opens up room for discussion and it shows the employer that you have flexibility. And it gives you some cushion in case you think that you’re asking for a little bit too high. So that’s going to be really, really important is to provide kind of precise numbers in a range. And oh, by the way, I want to be paid at the upper echelon of that.

Tim Ulbrich: So real quick on that, you mentioned before the concept of anchoring, and I want to spend some time here as you’re talking about a range. So dig into that further, what that means in terms of if I’m given a range, how does anchoring fit into that?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so we kind of talk about this more when we kind of talk some of the tools and the behavior of negotiation. But the range — so when we talk about like anchoring, so anchoring is actually — it’s a bias. So anchoring bias describes the common tendency to give too much weight to the first number. So again, if I can invite the listener to imagine an equation, and the equation is 5x4x3x2x1. And that’s in your mind’s eye. And then you clear the slate, and now you imagine this equation: 1x2x3x4x5. Now, if I show the average person and I just flash that number up, the first number — the first equation that starts with 5 and the second equation that starts with 1, we know that those things equal the same thing. But in the first equation, we see the 5 first, so it creates this anchor, creates this belief in us that that number is actually higher.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, bigger, yeah.

Tim Baker: So the idea of anchoring is typically that that number that we see really is a — has a major influence, that first number is a major influence over where the negotiation goes. So you can kind of get into the whole idea of factoring your knowledge of the zone of possible agreement, which is often called ZOPA. So that’s the range of options that should be acceptable for both sides, and then kind of assessing your side of that and then your other party’s anchor in that. So there’s lots of things that kind of go into anchoring, but we did this recently with a client where I think they were offered somewhere in like the $110,000-112,000 area. And she’s like, I really want to get paid closer to like $117,000-118,000. So we basically in the counteroffer, we said, “Hey, thanks for the offer.” And we did something called an accusation, which we can talk about in a second. But “Thanks for the counteroffer, but I’m really looking to make between” — you know, I think we said something like $116,598 to all the way up into the $120,000s. And they actually brought her up to I think she was at $117,000 and change. So it actually brought her up closer to that $118,000. So using that range and kind of that range as a good anchoring position to help the negotiation.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, love it.

Tim Baker: There’s lots of different things that kind of go into anchoring in terms of extreme anchoring and a lot of that stuff that they talk about in the book, but again, that kind of goes back to that first number being thrown out there can be really, really integral. And again, when you couple that on top of hey, it’s their job to make you an offer, not the other way around, you have to really learn how to deflect that and know how to position yourself in those negotiations. But that’s really the counteroffer. And what I would say to kind of just wrap up the counteroffer is embrace the silence.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: So Tim, there was silence there, and I’m like, I want to fill the void. And I do this with clients when we talk about mirroring and things like that. Like people are uncomfortable with silence. And what he talks about in the book, which I would 100% — this is really kind of a tip of the cap to Chris Voss and his book, which I love, I read probably at least once a year, where he talks about embracing the silence. We as people are conditioned to fill silences. So he talks about sometimes people will negotiate against themselves. If you just sit there and you say, “Uh huh. That’s interesting.” And then in the counter, just be pleasantly persistent on the non-salary terms, which can be both subjective and objective in terms of what you’re looking for in that position.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I want to make sure we don’t lose that. We’re talking a lot about salary, but again, as we mentioned at the beginning, really try to not only understand but fit what’s the value of those non-salary terms. So this could be everything from paid time off to obviously other benefits, whether that be health or retirement. This of course could be culture of the organization, whether it’s that specific site, the broader organization, opportunities for advancement.

Tim Baker: Mentorship. Yep. Mentorship.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes, yes.

Tim Baker: Yep, all of that.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think what you hear from folks — I know I’ve felt in my own personal career, with each year that goes on, I value salary, but salary means less and those other things mean more. And so as you’re looking at let’s just say two offers, as one example, let’s say they’re $5,000 apart. I’m not saying you give on salary, but how do you factor in these other variables.

Tim Baker: Yeah. Well, and I think too — and this is kind of next level with this, and I’ll give you some examples to cite it. I think another thing to potentially do when you are countering and when you’re shifting to some of maybe the non-salary stuff is really took a hard look at your potential employer or even your current employer if you’re an incumbent and you’re being reviewed and you’re just advocating for a better compensation, is look at the company’s mission and values. So the example I give is like when Shay and I got pregnant with Liam, she didn’t have a maternity leave benefit. And when she was being reviewed, we kind of invoked the company — and I think it’s like work-life balance and things like that — and we’re like, “Well, how can you say that and not back that up?” And again, we did it tactfully. Because you’re almost like negotiating against yourself, right? So when I present this to clients, the Spiderman meme where two Spidermans are pointing at each other, and she was able to negotiate a better, a maternity — and we look at us, and I give these, one of our values is encouraging growth and development. So if an employee says, hey, and they make a case that I really want to do this, it’s almost like we’re negotiating against ourselves. So I think if you can — one, I think it shows again the research and that you’re really interested and plugged into what the organization is doing — but then I think you’re leveraging the company against itself in some ways because you’re almost negotiating against well, yeah, we put these on the wall as something that we believe in. But we’re not going to support it or you know. Or at the very least, it plants a seed. And that’s what I say is sometimes with clients, we do strike out. It is hard to move the needle sometimes, but at least one, we’ve got an iteration under our belts where we are negotiation, and two, we’ve planted a seed with that employer — assuming that they took the job anyway — that says OK, these are things that are kind of important to me that we’re going to talk about again and things like that. So I think that’s huge.

Tim Ulbrich: Good stuff. So let’s talk about some tools that we can use for negotiation. And again, many of these are covered in more detail in the book and other resources, which we’ll link to in the show notes. I just want to hit on a few of these. Let’s talk about mirroring, accusation audits, and the importance of getting a “That’s right” while you’re in these conversations. And we’ll leave our listeners to dig deeper in some of the other areas. So talk to us about mirroring. What is it? And kind of give us the example and strategies of mirroring.

Tim Baker: Yeah, and I would actually — Tim, what I would do is I would actually back up because I think probably one of the most important tools that are there I think is the calibrated question. So that’s one of the first things that he talks — and the reason, so what is a calibrated question? So a calibrated question is a question with really no fixed answer that gives the illusion of control. So the answer, however, is kind of constrained by that question. And you, the person that’s asking the question, has control of the conversation. So I give the example, when we moved into our house after we renovated it — so brand new house. I walk into my daughter’s room, I think she was 4 at the time, and she’s coloring on the wall in red crayons. And I’m from Jersey, so I say “crown” not “crayon.” And I look at her, and I say, “Olivia, why are you doing that?” And she sees how upset I am and mad and she just starts crying. And there’s no negotiation from there.

Tim Ulbrich: Negotiation over.

Tim Baker: There’s no exchange of information. So in an alternate reality, in an alternate reality, what I should have done is said, “Olivia, what caused you to do that?” So you’re basically blasting — instead of why — why is very accusatory — you’re like, the how and the what questions are good. So and of course she would say, “Well, Daddy, I ran out of paper, so the wall is the next best thing.” So the use of — and having these calibrated questions in your back pocket, I think again buys you some time and really I think frames the conversation with your counterpart well. So using words like “how” and “what” and avoiding things like “why,” “when,” “who.” So, “What about this works, doesn’t work for you?” “How can we make this better for us?” “How do you want to proceed?” “How can we solve this problem?” “What’s the biggest challenge you face?” These are all — “How does this look to you?” — these are all calibrated questions that again, as you’re kind of going back and forth, you can kind of lean on. So have good how and what questions. To kind of answer the question about mirroring, as you’re asking these questions, you’re mirroring your counterpart. So what mirroring, the scientific term is called isopraxism. But he defines and says “the real-life Jedi mind trick.” This causes vomiting of information is what he says. So you know, these are not the droids you’re looking for. So what you essentially is you repeat back the last 1-3 words or the critical words of your counterpart’s sentence, your counterpart’s sentence. So this is me mirroring myself. Yeah, well you want to repeat back because you want them to reveal more information. And you want to build rapport and have that curiosity of kind of what is the other person thinking so you can, again, come to an agreement. Come to an agreement? Yeah. So at the end of the day, the purpose — so this is mirroring. So I’ll show you a funny story. I practice this on my wife sometimes, who does not have a problem speaking. But sometimes the counterpart is —

Tim Ulbrich: She’s listening, by the way.

Tim Baker: Yeah, exactly. So I’ll probably be in trouble. But so I basically just for our conversation, just mirror back exactly what she’s saying. And you can do this physically. You can cross your legs or your arms or whatever that looks like. But what he talks about more is with words. And you know, I’ll basically just mirror back my wife, and she — at the end of the conversation, she’ll say something like, “Man, I feel like you really listened to me.” And I laugh about that because I’m just really repeating back. But if you think about it, I did. Because for you to be able to do that, you really do have to listen. So mirroring, again, if you’re just repeating back, you really start to uncover more of what your counterpart is thinking because often, like what comes out of our mouth the first or even second time is just smoke. So really uncovering that. One of the things he talks about is labeling where this is kind of the — it’s described as the method of validating one’s emotion by acknowledging it. So, “It seems like you’re really concerned about patient care. It seems like you’re really concerned about the organization’s retention of talent. So what you’re doing is that you’re using neutral statements that don’t involve the use of “I” or “we.” So it’s not necessarily accusatory. And then you are — same with the mirror. You really want to not step on your mirror. You want to not stop on your label and really invite the other person to say, “Yeah, I’m just really frustrated by this or that.” So labeling is really important to basically defuse the power, the negative emotion, and really allow you to remain neutral and kind of find out more about that. So that’s super important.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think with both of those, Tim, as you were talking, it connects well back to what we mentioned earlier of talk less, listen more.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Like you’re really getting more information out, right, from a situation that can be guarded, you know, people are trying to be guarded. And I think more information could lead hopefully to a more fruitful negotiation. What about the accusation audit?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so the accusation audit, it’s one of my favorites, kind of similar with calibrated questions. I typically will tell clients, I’m like, “Hey, if you don’t learn anything from this, I would say have some calibrated questions in your back pocket and have a good accusation audit at the ready.” And we typically will use the accusation audit to kind of frame up a counteroffer. So it kind — so before I give you the example, the accusation audit is a technique that’s used to identify and label probably like the worst thing that your counterpart could say about it. So this is all the head trash that’s going on of why I don’t want to negotiate. It’s like, ah, they’re going to think that I’m overasking or I’m greedy, all those things that you’re thinking. So you’re really just pointing to the elephant in the room and you’re just trying to take this thing out and really let the air out of the room where a lot of people just get so nervous about this. So a good accusation audit is, “Hey, Tim, I really appreciate the offer of $100,000 to work with your organization. You’re probably going to think that I’m the greediest person on Planet Earth, but I was really looking for this to that.”

Tim Ulbrich: That’s a great line. Great line.

Tim Baker: Or, “You’re probably thinking that I’m asking way too much,” or, “You’re probably thinking that I’m way underqualified for this position, but here’s what I’m thinking.”

Tim Ulbrich: “No. No, no, no, Tim.”

Tim Baker: Right. So when someone says that to me, I’m like, “No. I don’t think that.” And what often happens — and again, clients have told me this — what often happens is that the person, the counterpart that they’re working with, like they’re recruited as — one person said, one client was like, “Oh, we’re going to find you more money. We’re going to figure it out.” So they like — so when someone says that to you, just think about how you would feel. “Oh, I don’t think that at all.” And then it just kind of lets the air out of the room. So you basically preface your counteroffer with like the worst thing they could say about you, and then they typically say, “That’s not true at all.”

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: So I love the accusation audit. So simple, it’s kind of easy to remember. And I think it just lays I think the groundwork for just great conversation and hopefully a resolution.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. And then let’s wrap up with the goal of getting to a “That’s right.” I remember when I was listening to an interview with Chris Voss, this was a part that I heard and I thought, wow, that’s so powerful. If you can get — in the midst of this negotiation, if we can get to a “Yeah, that’s right,” the impact that could have on the impact.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so he kind of talks about it like kind of putting all of these different tools together. So it’s mirroring and labeling and kind of using I think what he calls minimal encouragement, “Uh huh,” “I see,” kind of paraphrasing what you hear from your counterpart. And then really wait for — it’s like, “Hey, did I get that right? Am I tracking?” And what you’re really looking for is a “That’s right.” He said that’s even better than a “Yes.” So one of the examples I give is when I speak with prospective clients, we’re talking about my student loans and my investment portfolio and I’m doing real budgeting, and I got a sold a life insurance policy that I think isn’t great for me. And so we go through all of these different parts of the financial plan. And I’m basically summarizing back what they’re saying. And I say, you know, at the end of it — so I’m summarizing 30 minutes of conversation. And I’m saying, “Did I get that right?” And they’re like, “Yeah, that’s right. You’re a great listener,” which I have to record for my wife sometimes because she doesn’t agree with me. So that’s what you’re looking for is “Yeah, that’s right.” This person has heard, message sent, heard, understand me. He says if you get a “You’re right,” so sometimes, again, I keep talking about my wife, I’m like, “Hey, we have to do a better job of saving for retirement,” and she’s like, “You’re right.” That’s really code for “Shut up and go away.” So it’s a “That’s right” really what we’re looking for.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome.

Tim Baker: So that’s very powerful.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great stuff. And really, just a great overall summary of some tips within the negotiation process, the steps of the negotiation process, how it fits into the financial plan. We hope folks walk away with that and just a good reminder of our comprehensive financial planning services that we do at YFP Planning. This is a great example of when we say “comprehensive,” we mean it. So it’s not just investments, it’s not just student loans. It’s really every part of the financial plan. Anything that has a dollar sign on it, we want our clients to be in conversation and working with our financial planners to make sure we’re optimizing that and looking at all parts of one’s financial plan. And here, negotiation is a good example of that. So we’ve referenced lots of resources, main one we talked about here today was “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss. We will link to that in our show notes. And as a reminder to access the show notes, you can go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/podcast, find this week’s episode, click on that and you’ll be able to access a transcription of the episode as well as the show notes and the resources. And don’t forget to join our Facebook group, the Your Financial Pharmacist Facebook group, over 6,000 members strong, pharmacy professionals all across the country committed to helping one another on their own path and walk towards financial freedom. And last but not least, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the podcast, please leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show each and every week. Have a great rest of your day.

Tim Ulbrich: As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 333: Small Business Owner Tax Savings Checklist

Posted on November 9, 2023November 8, 2023 by Tim U

On this episode, sponsored by First Horizon, YFP Director of Tax, Sean Richards CPA, EA, summarizes a tax checklist for pharmacy entrepreneurs and other small business owners.

Episode Summary

Too many of us are caught in the trap of only looking at taxes during tax season. As a small business owner, missing the tax mark can have significant consequences in the form of surprise payments due, missed deductions and credits, and constantly wondering if there is something else you should be doing. So whether you are a seasoned business owner or just starting, on this week’s episode, sponsored by First Horizon, YFP Director of Tax, Sean Richards, CPA, EA walks us through a small business owner tax checklist including eight key areas that demand your attention. He touches on the fundamentals of bookkeeping, qualified deductible expenses, the benefits of financial projections to make estimated payments, the significance of S Corp status, insights on determining your owner’s compensation, and much more.

Key Points From the Episode

A warm welcome back to the show to YFP’s Director of Tax and CPA, Sean Richards.
Why record keeping is vital for a smooth tax season.
The separation of church and state when it comes to personal business.
Why you shouldn’t fear registering your business as an LLC.
When to consider working with a professional and what to expect from the relationship.
Understanding the basics of bookkeeping.
Defining deductible expenses and why it’s important to understand this term.
The difference between tax planning and tax preparation.
Projections and estimated payments: making sure that you’re setting the right money aside.
How to determine if the S-Corp is the right fit for you.
Discussing payroll and how to establish your salary as a business owner.
Diving deeper into Section 179 deductibles.

Episode Highlights

“Working with a professional will not solve any challenges or problems you have with disorganization.” — Tim Ulbrich [0:16:01]

“Having a strong understanding of how your business is doing financially is one of the best things that you can do as a business owner.” — Sean Richards [0:17:44]

“Paying yourself an equitable salary is not only the right thing to do by the eyes of the IRS, but it also really helps you think about where the business going and growing.” — Tim Ulbrich [0:45:48]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.8] TU: Hey everyone, I’m Tim Ulbrick, and I want to express my gratitude for you tuning in this week to the YFP Podcast. Each and every week, we’re dedicated to providing inspiration and support on your journey towards achieving financial freedom.

On this week’s episode, we have a special guest joining us, that’s YFP’s director of tax and CPA, Sean Richards, here to dive into a crucial topic, a tax checklist for small business owners. Whether you’re a seasoned business owner or just starting out, we’ll explore eight key areas that demand your attention. We’ll touch on the fundamentals of bookkeeping, qualified deductible expenses, the benefits of financial projections for estimated payments, the significance of S-Corp status, insights on determining your owner’s compensation, and much more.

Before we dive into this insightful conversation, let’s take a moment to thank today’s sponsor, First Horizon. Afterward, we’re jumping to my conversation with Sean Richards.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[0:00:53.6] TU: Does saving 20% for a down payment on a home feel like an uphill battle? It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high student loan debt, meeting that saving 20% for a down payment on a home may take years.

We’ve been on a hunt for a solution for pharmacists that are ready to purchase a home loan with a lower down payment and are happy to have found that option with First Horizon. First Horizon offers a professional home loan option, AKA, doctor or pharmacist home loan, that requires a 3% down payment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time home buyers, has no PMI, and offers a 30-year fixed rate mortgage on home loans up to USD 726,200.

The pharmacist home loan is available in all states except Alaska and Hawaii and can be used to purchase condos as well. However, rates may be higher and a condo review has to be completed. To check out the requirements for First Horizon’s Pharmacist Home Loan, and to start the pre-approval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:04.9] TU: Sean, welcome back to the show.

[0:02:06.5] SR: Thanks. Thanks for having me, yeah. Feels good, we’re through all the extension deadlines, business and individual and now we can hundred percent focus on next year.

[0:02:14.2] TU: Hard to believe, right? We’re already talking about next tax season. You just had a webinar this week kicking off the beginnings of at least thinking about tax season. I know, many of our listeners, really, this comes to life in January, February, we’re trying to get people to think a little bit earlier, more year-round, and today, we’re focusing on really small business owner tax considerations and what are some things that people will be thinking about, planning about.

Essentially, a checklist of sorts, and whether people are just getting started with a business or maybe they’ve been at it for a while and they can go back and see, “All right, maybe there’s some holes in the crack in the foundation that they need to go back and fill in.” We really hope that this can be an episode that people will come back and reference into the future as well of something they need to be thinking about as a small business owner as it relates to their taxes.

And Sean, we’re going to talk here and weave in some of our own personal experiences of how these things became obvious that we need to be doing as we’re growing the business but also, Sean, in the work that you’re doing and advising and working with other small business owners as well.

[0:03:15.2] SR: Yeah, there will be anecdotes from real life, with our own accounting of our own businesses and some of the people that we worked with and everything, yeah. There’s a lot in this one, I think it will be a good one to reference back to, I agree.

[0:03:25.9] TU: I know pharmacists like checklists and I know they like to know where we’re going. So, we’re going to cover eight different areas, we’ll go through these one by one and they’re really going to flow into one another, and so I think we’re going to start, maybe a little bit broader, Sean, and then we’ll get more narrow of considerations that folks should be thinking about.

Sean, number one on our list is record keeping. I think that anyone who has been in a business for any time or even if they’ve been thinking about starting, they’re being advised, maybe that’s – some advice have been given is, “Hey, you have to keep records,” But that can get lost, right? You’ve got an idea, you’re running things, it can be busy, tell us about record keeping, why it’s so important, and what people should be thinking about here.

[0:04:02.5] SR: Yeah, like you said, these will kind of flow into each other, and honestly, it’s – you kind of can’t have one of these items without what’s before it, and it all comes back to record keeping, really, at the end of the day. And that makes sense if you’re thinking about taxes and accounting just the way that they are. It’s generally, it’s the nature or say, looking back at something, it’s a historical look.

So, you’re going to need to have references of the things that you did to be able to do something like that, but there’s just so many things that go into just being able to make decisions about your business when you’re filing taxes at the end of the year, when you’re doing tax planning, which I’ll get into a little bit later about the differences between tax planning and tax preparation.

It all comes down to having good data, and having good data goes back to having good sourced data and inputs and everything. So just saving down everything that you can, related to the business, and I don’t mean that in the sense of just holding receipts and throwing it in the shoe box and just keeping all of the junk, but just making sure that if you’re doing financial transactions, you’re keeping them in a bank related to your business, you’re running down reports at the end of the month.

Hopefully, you’re using some kind of ledger system like a QuickBooks or even Excel or something like that but even if not, just being able to say, “Hey, this is the money that I made this year, this is the money I paid this year.” And then even some of the ins and outs that you might not think or something that will directly relate to your taxes or business but might, if you ask your accountant about it, right?

So, things like loan agreements and any type of employment agreements you have with folks. So, things like that. Just really, anything that you think at any point in time, “Hey, would my accountant ever possibly ask me about this?” or “May this possibly come into play when I’m doing my taxes in the future?” Bear to error on the set of caution, just keep everything.

That being said, there’s actually some rules in some areas. So, generally speaking, I’d hold on to everything for at least three years. Some states have even longer record retention requirements but generally speaking, hold on to things for at least three years. Just get some cloud storage or a hard drive or something like that so you don’t have to take a physical space and just keep an eye on everything.

[0:06:08.1] TU: Yeah. And we use, at YFP, we use Google Drive for everything. So that becomes our system of – as you mentioned Sean, it’s not just receipts, right? It’s going to be the financial statements, whether someone’s producing those for you or you’re working on that yourself, and it might be a very basic Excel template that you’re starting with and then that will evolve over time.

But it’s not just the receipts or the financials, it’s also the contracts, right? Things that you’re – you know, W9. I mean, just the – a lot of things that you’re going to be building over time.

[0:06:37.0] SR: Right, and even things that you might not think about. So, like, say you or you have an office space at home that you’re working out of. You can take a deduction for that and there’s a simplified way to do that with a square footage. But there’s also a way you can take actual expenses and generally, you’re going to want to do whatever is the most beneficial.

So, now we’re talking about, okay, mortgage interest and utilities and stuff but even on top of that, depreciations. So now we’re saying, “Hey, how much did you pay for your house 10 years ago?” or something. That might not be something that’s top of mind for folks but if it’s, again, even if it’s tangentially related to the business, there’s a chance you’re going to be able to possibly get a tax savings for it.

Better to just hold onto it and ask somebody about it, “Hey, can I get a deduction for this? Is it worth me keeping this data, these records here?” And then just have someone tell you, “No, you don’t need that anymore.” And then you can get rid of it.

[0:07:26.2] TU: Yeah, perhaps I should have said this at the beginning, Sean, but I know we’re going to have some people that are listening that maybe have been at this for a while and they’re kind of realizing as we’re going through these eight things like, “Oh, my gosh, like, this is a hot mess” right?

[0:07:35.9] SR: Right.

[0:07:36.6] TU: And that’s normal. You joked about the receipts in the shoe box but there’s a fine line here between, “You can’t predict everything you don’t know yet.” And the system’s going to evolve over time. You don’t want to become paralyzed by all these things but also, you want to be thinking ahead as much as you possibly can, or working with someone that can help you anticipate, that has experience working with others as well.

[0:07:56.6] SR: Exactly.

[0:07:57.4] TU: And I think an important part of that record-keeping, Sean, has been moved to number two on our checklist is this concept of comingling personal and business and really wanting to separate these out and ideally, we’re doing this from jump street, right? So we can have clean records and again, this isn’t always done, whether someone’s anticipating where they’re going to go or maybe they’re confused about how to incorporate or do they need to set up an LLC.

Lots of things to consider here, but talk to us about the importance of separation of church and state when it comes to personal business.

[0:08:29.5] SR: I was going to say the separation of church and state but I wasn’t sure if that was alright. So, I’ve used it before but I held off for a minute. Yeah, I mean, that again, it’s going back to the record-keeping thing, and being able to produce data and produce useful information about your business. So, if you need to say to yourself, “All right, how much money did I make this year or how much did I make, how much did I spend in expenses to my vendors?”

If you have to then go and start pouring through and combing through bank accounts and picking out, “All right, well, this was related to my kid’s school stuff but this was related to the business trip that I went on” and everything, just the notion of even having to do that from the beginning is – it’s just stressful to even think about. There were legal sides to it too. I mean, if you have an LLC and you set up a separate business, it’s always kind of there to keep things separate.

[0:09:15.8] TU: Yeah.

[0:09:16.0] SR: Then it begins to become something where, like you said, you might not know at first, “Hey, I’m starting something out, it’s just a little side project, I’ll use my regular account for now and kind of keep track of things on paper.” Then all of a sudden, things expand and get bigger and hey, maybe you’re incorporating or bringing on partners and stuff, and then you start getting into things, which I won’t really go too deep into because I’ll put the audience to sleep.

But you start talking about your basis in a partnership interest or something like that or your basis as a shareholder in a corporation, and if you’re sharing funds or borrowing things from here and putting it in this pocket and using your personal home equity line of credit to fund the line of business that you’re doing, it just, it muddies the waters too much from the beginning.

So, to any extent, you can keep that stuff separate. That’s the recommendation. That being said, number one is, if you’ve already done some things where, “Hey, I’ve put a couple of expenses on this card” it’s not the end of the world, it’s just being able to identify those things. So, if you can go back now and start to be able to put a report together where you’re chipping away the personal stuff and you have the business stuff ready now or towards the end of the year and not in April or March actually, if we’re talking about business returns.

But the other thing is that you don’t have to necessarily hold yourself to that a million percent. And I know this is offering up not a best practice but there will be times when I have people come to me and say, “Hey, if I go put this big credit card or this big flight on my personal card that I just opened up, I’m going to get myself a huge refund back from my credit or big reward, then I’ll be able to put back in the business” or something like that.

Those things will happen and it makes sense, you have to do it. It just goes back to the record-keeping thing. Let your accountant know or keep track yourself. “Hey, this was a loan from me as a business owner to the business and now, I’m going to actually pay myself back that amount from my business account.” Just keep track of it that way. Don’t completely handcuff yourself but make sure you try to keep things as separate as you possibly can.

[0:11:19.3] TU: Yeah, that’s great stuff. I think too, there’s – you mentioned some of the legal piece, which again, we’re not lawyers but that’s an important consideration of keeping things separate and where the liability protection ends. I think the other thing I see here, Sean, often, is the idea of starting, setting up a business, registering with the state, getting your employer identification number, opening a bank account.

That seems big and scary, which I think can be intimidating to people that are on the front of it but it’s really not that difficult nor is it that expensive. And so I think, as early as you possibly can, once you’ve got that bank account and the business’s name that’s really going to help you with the record-keeping being separate. The other thing I would just say is from a visibility and a cleanliness as an owner to understanding where your business is at.

Like, we don’t want to muddy those waters as you talked about, right? So, I want to be able to quickly see, how’s the revenue, how’s the expenses, where are we at? And obviously as you grow, you’re going to look at this period versus another period and what’s the growth or not the growth. What do we need to change?

So, I think really having good insight into what’s the health of the business, the separation helps. And then the other thing I would add, which is a little bit more in the mindset side of things is sometimes when we are just starting, we have some of that resistance and devastation of like, “Well, this is just kind of small and I’m not sure where it’s going to go and so, I’m just going to do it with my personal.”

Like, believe in yourself, right? Where are we going? And worst-case scenario as we dissolve the business, we shut down the banking account and we move on, but I think really establishing the goals that you have for the business as well.

[0:12:49.4] SR: Right, and we’ll talk about it in a little bit more later but the LLC thing, again, neither of us are lawyers but a lot of people get scared by that because they think, “Oh, it’s a new entity, it’s going to open up this whole separate tax thing.” But most of the time, if you’re a sole proprietorship and you open an LLC, it’s just going to land on your personal tax return like kind of a regular side business anyways. So don’t let that notion of things scare you too much.

[0:13:12.1] TU: All right, number three on our list, Sean. Number three is working with a professional. You’ve alluded to this a couple of different times. Some people, as it gets started, they may work with a professional right away, they may wait, and that could either be an accountant, bookkeeper, both, we’ll talk about bookkeeping basics here in a little bit.

This was one of the first areas, Sean, that we actually outsourced at YFP, as we were looking at growing the business. We had times where that perspective was very helpful and times where we’re like, maybe not. So, I think this is a challenge where, “You know what? I’m going to hire someone that can really understand my business and advise me.” And I often had this feeling of, “I don’t know what I don’t know”, right?

So, I’m looking for someone to kind of guide me, rather than just being there when I have questions. So, talk to us about the working with the professional. Maybe the “When”, as well as, what are we looking for in that relationship?

[0:14:01.8] SR: Yeah, and like you mentioned, we’re going to go into bookkeeping basics, but I think having this n your checklist of where you’re in the end of the year, and really any point in the business year is trying to make that determination, “Hey, am I going to do this or not?” You don’t even necessarily have to go down the path of understanding all of the ins and outs of the bookkeeping if you’re going to decide off the bat, “Hey, I’m going to pay somebody to do that for me.”

Not that you shouldn’t get the basics and stuff, but if you’re going to say, “Hey, I want to outsource this now and have somebody run that whole show”, you don’t necessarily even have to get yourself in the weeds from the beginning. But I think it’s just one of those things that you have to decide, like you were saying, where do you want to be spending your time and your energy and where are your strengths and your weaknesses, right?

So, if maybe you have a finance background and you say, “I can put a couple of hours towards this and it’s not a big deal, I got a pretty good handle on things and I can run it myself.” That’s perfectly fine but you might be saying to yourself, “Hey, I know a lot of people who just absolutely hate everything to do with numbers” and that’s okay too. If number scare you and you hate numbers, that’s fine but they’re not going to go away.

So, ignoring them or trying to just say, “Hey, we’ll get there at the end of the year and figure it out then.” I mean, that is one way to do it but it’s certainly not the best way to do it. So, I think it’s just something where you have to really think about where you’re at, what your strengths and weaknesses are, and also what do you want to do when it comes to tax season, right?

If you’re talking about a sole proprietorship then that’s going to land on your personal return, that’s probably something that you can handle. But if you’re getting into partnerships and corporations, now you’re filing different returns and they’re a little bit more than a regular person’s probably used to with HNR block or whatever. So, that’ might begin to necessitate having a tax professional just sheerly out of expertise.

So, there’s a lot of different things. I always use the accountant cop-out answer that Tim Baker uses of, “It depends.” But it really does depend. But I think having that decision early on in your process will help plan out the rest of everything else that we’re going to talk about in a minute.

[0:15:57.6] TU: And this is worth saying, and maybe saying again and saying again, which is working with a professional will not solve any challenges or problems you have with disorganization, right?

[0:16:07.7] SR: Correct.

[0:16:08.6] TU: They can advise, they can help, they can – we talked about things like record keeping, but they’re not there from an organization standpoint. I think this is something, again, no judgment, right? People that are just getting started in the business, you’re focusing on the business, you’re growing things, you may not be thinking about organization and records and all that, but at some point, that’s got to become a priority. And if they’re working with someone the first time, that may not be something that is top of mind, so.

[0:16:32.7] SR: Yeah, but a professional though also can, on the flip side and again, it’s not going to be – it’s not going to solve disorganization problems but can definitely help advise with, “Hey, you’ve been struggling keeping track of all these things. Why don’t you get a QuickBooks subscription, we’ll connect all your bank accounts and then I can handle things from there and keep track of things as they come in.”

And now, all of a sudden, you’re not panicking every month or every year with the thousand transactions. You have a bookkeeper who is going in every week or every month and categorizing things and sending you reports, so.

[0:17:01.9] TU: Yeah.

[0:17:02.1] SR: Again, it might not solve your problems with a wave of a magic wand but they can definitely get you there.

[0:17:08.7] TU: So, let’s go to number four on our small business owner tax checklist, and Sean, that’s bookkeeping. We’ve danced around this here a couple of times so far but whether or not someone is working with a bookkeeper, there are things they have to be ready for and make sure that they’re tracking. So, talk to us about those items that they have to be ready to report on, whether they’re doing it themselves or whether they’re working with someone that they hire.

[0:17:30.5] SR: Yup, like you said, and like I was just saying before too, even if you have somebody who is doing this for you, reporting on it, and kind of explaining it all to you, you still have to generally be able to understand what they’re talking about, right? I mean, you can only break things down in layman’s terms so much, and having a strong understanding of how your business is doing financially is obviously, one of the best things that you can do as a business owner, I think.

So, if you take a look at – and I’ll talk about the entity types in a little bit – but if you look at the three main, or at least in my mind, tax returns that you’ll have for small businesses typically is a schedule C on your 1040. That’s just your regular kind of sole proprietorship. It can be an LLC, cannot, but just a regular person side gig kind of thing, and then you have a 1065 which is a partnership.

So that’s the default if you have an LLC and you have more than one person, and then S-Corp, I’m sure a lot of people have heard of that say, 1120-s. Those are the three main forms that you typically see for filing business returns at the end of the year. If you look at the three of those, the main front of the forms, they’re all basically the same thing. You have your revenues, your, “Hey, what were my sales, what was my service income if I had any other kind of income, and what were my expenses?”

And you’ll see that all three of them have generally the same categories for expenses. Like advertising and travel and mortgage interest and things like that. So, it’s pretty similar across the board and you’re going to really have to be able to report on that stuff, no matter what kind of business you run, you’re going to have to know what your revenues are and you’re going to have to know what your expenses are.

Revenues, I’m not really going to spend a whole heck of a lot of time on. I mean, I think people generally kind of have a feel for that, it’s cash in the door. The one thing I would say there is if you’re doing service revenue, it might be a little bit harder to track when you’re actually performing a service and getting paid versus actually selling a good. So, a little bit more keep eye on there but honestly, again, people typically have a good feel for that.

It’s more the expense side that I think things can kind of trip people up on. You typically think, “Hey, whenever I’m spending cash out the door that’s going to be an expense for the business and I can probably deduct it.” And generally, that’s true, but there’s a lot of things that come in that can mix that up a little bit. I mean, property is one thing. I was mentioning before, depreciation, right?

So, you probably think, “Hey, I’m paying for this office space and I have a mortgage on it. My mortgage, I should be able to write that off, right?” Mortgage interest you can but the mortgage principle, you don’t. You get that back via depreciation but again, that’s something you might not be thinking about or might not really have insight into, or vehicles for example. You can have a billion different ways to write off vehicle expenses.

Whether you’re taking actual expenses or like a standard mileage rate. It all depends on how much you’re using the vehicle for business purposes, there’s all sorts of depreciation rules and stuff. There’s just a lot when it comes to expenses. So, that’s probably the biggest area on the PNL at least, the profit and loss statement to really have a good handle on when it comes to basic bookkeeping stuff.

[0:20:25.4] TU: Sean, as you’re talking, it’s reminding me of – sorry to interrupt you, it’s reminding me of Schitt’s Creek episode where Johnny Rose –

[0:20:33.4] SR: Yeah. I already know where this is going.

[0:20:35.0] TU: You can’t just buy things for yourself and deduct them as an expense.

[0:20:39.8] SR: It’s a write-off, it’s just a write-off, exactly.

[0:20:42.1] TU: It’s a write-off, just a write-off.

[0:20:43.4] SR: And hey, a lot of times, and we’ll talk about what’s a deductible business expense. A lot of times, if you’re spending money on a business, it is but you’re correct, you can’t just be like David Rose and just go buy everything.

[0:20:54.3] TU: Oh my gosh.

[0:20:55.7] SR: From the blouse barn. So, that’s the PNL. The balance sheet is kind of – I don’t want to say, it’s the ugly stepchild of the financial statements but it’s the one that people generally have an actually have a pretty good understanding of it without even really knowing what a balance sheet is just because of the nature of two of the biggest components of it. So, your balance sheet is going to be your assets, it’s kind of one-half of the calculation and then the other half is liabilities and equity.

So, assets are pretty much what you think. If you look up the book definition of an asset, it’s kind of what it is for a business. It’s kind of what it is for a business. It’s basically something that’s expected to generate money for you, it’s a positive sort of resource that you have so cash, receivables, things like that, property, equipment. Again, things that people probably have a pretty good handle on.

“Hey, I have this much cash in the bank, Johnny owes me this much money and I own all these cars” right? Liabilities is the other side, on the other side. So, that’s the opposite of the asset basically. It’s like, “Hey, loans, do I have debt, do I have credit cards, do I have a mortgage? Do I owe my vendors?” Things like that.

So again, people typically have a pretty good handle of that, whether they’re really thinking about it or not, you usually know, “Hey, what are my credit card balances, what’s my line of credit balance?” whatever. Equity is the piece that is sort of – it always just ends up being the plug piece but it’s really important when it comes to taxes. So, if you think about – I was alluding to before, you were in a partnership.

You have a basis in that partnership and again, if you’re not an accountant, you might be thinking like, “What in the world is that?” It’s something that, I don’t want to say it gets overlooked but if you’re not really thinking about it from the beginning and again, getting back to commingling funds and stuff, basis is something that really matters a lot in the tax calculation. But can get muddied very quickly if you don’t have a handle on things.

And that really comes into play, equity is really where that kind of lands and I’ll caution that, if you look on the balance sheet, you look at equity, that doesn’t mean that that’s your basis or if you have multiple partners and stuff, it doesn’t necessarily equal that. But being able to have a handle on what your equity is, it really is a value of your company if you think about it. It’s your assets minus your liabilities. If everything right now came due and you had to pay off all of your vendors and everything, what do you have left?

That’s the value for your business. So, like I said, it’s the one that’s overlooked a little bit and it’s not as easy to maintain. Typically you don’t have to report a balance sheet if you have a small business and you’re doing like sole proprietorship or something, but it’s something that if you can get somebody to keep those books for you and be able to have a handle on it.

[0:23:28.2] TU: So, as you mentioned, assets equals liabilities plus equity or we could change the equation around assets minus liabilities equals equity, right?

[0:23:35.6] SR: Again, exactly right.

[0:23:36.6] TU: So, is my high school math still good?

[0:23:38.4] SR: Yes, that would be algebra. Very, very good.

[0:23:41.2] TU: So, let’s talk more within the bookkeeping basics here. Let’s talk more about the deductible expenses, right? This is probably one of the most common questions that we get you alluded to before that – especially early on the journey, people may have this perception of, “Hey, I can buy anything for the businesses and it’s a deductible expense.” So, define that term just a little bit further and why that’s important, and then some of the most common areas or deductible expenses that small business owners should be thinking about.

[0:24:06.8] SR: Yup. Sure. So, deductibility, it really comes down to the main things. So, is it ordinary and necessary? So, that basically means, if I have a business, is that expense something that actually makes sense in the course of a business? So, if you own a financial education company and you’re buying courses for your employees to take to learn about education and finance and stuff, that’s probably an ordinary expense.

If you’re buying tickets to – I was going to say, the Phillies in the World Series but they’re not really there, I guess. So, if you’re buying tickets to a baseball game or something, that’s probably not an ordinary expense, right? So, sorry for the low blow. I actually was rooting for the Phillies this year, that wasn’t meant to be, it just popped in my head first thing. So, ordinary necessaries, number one. Reasonable, which is in the same kind of vein but similar sort of thing.

So right, if we go back to that example I was just giving in, your employees are purchasing education, financial education courses, right? If those courses cost USD 500, a thousand dollars or something, it’s probably reasonable. If those courses cost USD 250,000 each, that’s starting to be, “Hey, you know, what’s going on there?” In fact, it’s probably not started to be, it’s definitely unreasonable but I think you get what I’m saying.

[0:25:19.3] TU: Yeah.

[0:25:19.3] SR: And then the third piece is paid during the year or if you’re on the accrual basis incurred during the year. But generally speaking paid but as the case is with everything, there is a lot of exceptions to these rules and with expenses in particular, those exceptions come out quite a bit. So, when we think common deductible expenses, cost of goods sold is going to be the most common or easy to identify if you’re a retail business or you’re selling goods.

And then the flip side of that, of the analogy I guess is if you have a service business, it’s not as easy to say, “What’s my cost of goods sold?” because you’re not selling a good but being able to determine, “Hey, what are my direct expenses directly related to the services that I’m providing?” So, it’s typically labor, contract labor, things like that. Compensation, so that’s one that is usually is a deductible expense.

However, it very often is not something that’s a deductible expense if it’s for an owner-employee of whatever this is. So, and you know, I’ll get into a little bit of specifics in a bit with some of these different entity types but if you’re a sole proprietorship and you are paying yourself and it is a little bit contradictory to what I was saying before where you want to be able to kind of keep good books and keep records of everything.

So, you’re probably saying, “All right, I’m working 40 hours a week on my business. I am paying myself 50 grand a year” whatever it is, that’s a salary expense to me, and then you write that off. But as an owner of a sole proprietorship, that’s not something that’s a deductible expense and that comes into play if you’re S-Corp. Some of those, some of the compensation that you’re getting.

If it is a salary expense, that will be deductible but then if you’re taking profit distributions, it’s not. So, there is a lot when it comes into compensation. If you’re paying contractors, separate contractors that aren’t yours generally speaking, that will be deductible but more just trying to give the caution flag here of, “Hey, if you are paying anybody particularly yourself, keep an eye on that.”

[0:27:15.7] TU: That’s really good, Sean. I think that can evolve, right? So, somebody may start as a sole proprietor, they may then have partners or not, they may or may not become an S-Corp. So, this topic of owner’s compensation and a deductible expense is one that may be ongoing.

[0:27:30.3] SR: Oh, absolutely. It’s something – and we’ll talk about the S-Corp thing in a little bit – but exactly right. And that’s not something that is going to be set in stone and even something like not necessarily related to deductible expenses, but even something like setting aside money for taxes. I mean, you might have a rate in your head that, “Hey, I’m going to put aside 15, 20%” that can change drastically year to year depending on what things are happening with your business or your personal.

[0:27:52.9] TU: Yeah.

[0:27:53.3] SR: So just another thing that as with everything else, a lot of these rules and things to keep in mind aren’t necessarily set in stone for any particular point in time. On the subject of compensation, health insurance is another big one. So, that’s one that again, you got to really want to be careful about. I can’t get into all the rules now but the big thing there is really if your spouse is eligible for health insurance through whatever company they work for.

If it’s unrelated to your small business that usually makes it nondeductible on your side, so just something to keep in mind in there. Again, I won’t go into everything but there is a lot of rules around health insurance. Travel, a lot of rules around that. So, if you’re going on business and you are spending time overnight and the primary purpose is for business, most of those expenses generally speaking will be deductible.

But if it’s for leisure, probably not and the big one with transportation and travel is commuting to and from your office is never deductible. That’s the big one there that people will say, “Well, what if I work from home sometimes but then I have an office space that I go to?” If that’s a primary office location, probably not going to be a deductible expense, so that’s a big one to keep in mind.

And that’s huge too when you’re thinking about, if I am buying a vehicle and I’m taking these depreciation deductions and stuff, the mileage that you’re commuting to and from your office does not count towards business mileage, so very important to keep in mind.

[0:29:14.6] TU: You’ve reminded me of that many times, which is good.

[0:29:17.5] SR: Yeah, yeah, probably in a good way, right?

[0:29:20.2] TU: Yes, yeah.

[0:29:20.9] SR: And then you’re rolling your eyes at me kind of way.

[0:29:22.5] TU: Yeah.

[0:29:23.2] SR: So, one item I’ll mention as far as the exceptions to the rules I was talking about with being paid during the year is rent. So, I know a lot of people will say, “Oh, perfect. December, I’ll prepay next year’s rent and just be able to take a nice deduction this year for it.” IRS caught onto that one pretty quickly, so rent they actually specifically say, “Hey, if you prepay it, you can only take deductions for the time that it applies to.”

And then a big one that I mentioned before is the business use of home. So, if you are using a home office space and you’re – it’s dedicated and you’re using that for your business, you usually can’t take a deduction for that and there’s two methods, a simplified, “Hey, what’s my square footage?” and you’re taking five bucks a square foot or you’re taking a percentage of your actual expenses for your home.

The big thing there though is that I think that I kind of alluded to, it has to be strictly dedicated to that business. So, not like a half office half bedroom kind of situation. It needs to be fully for the business and really –

[0:30:20.4] TU: Which is important with work-at-home transitions. I’m thinking about where people have bedroom office type of set up, so.

[0:30:28.0] SR: Yeah and I mean, really, I mean I hit a couple of the big ones there as far as the expenses that are nondeductible that people often think might be. It’s really just; think of the opposite of what I just said, right? So, if you are you’re on and it’s for personal purposes, if you’re driving to and from your office, you’re going to baseball games, entertainment expenses aren’t deductible.

Federal income tax too, that’s another big one that people think, “Hey, it’s a tax.” Alot of taxes are deductible, property taxes, estate taxes, but the Federal one itself it’s – that would be a circular reference.

[0:31:00.3] TU: Yes, they were in.

[0:31:00.8] SR: That they were able to, right? So, if you get that one, then your math’s definitely working nice.

[0:31:05.0] TU: Yeah. Well, I think this is an area and obviously, I’m biased, Sean, we’ve got a team that does this, and your expertise on our team knows how to do small business accounting and bookkeeping and fractional CFO and TAx 4. Obviously, I’m biased there but I think you have to ask yourself as a business owner like this is just a lot to have on your mind, right?

So, could you learn all this, could you DIY this, could you record keep, could you bookkeep? Like technically the answer is yes.

[0:31:31.8] SR: Right and it’s possible.

[0:31:33.2] TU: But as you think about your capacity of attention and where you need to be focusing your energy, there is a point where there’s just so many nuances and here we’re really talking more on the side of let’s make sure we’re not calling something deductible that’s nondeductible. I think really the next level is more of the, what can we be doing strategically to optimize our tax situation? And that’s a huge value of having someone in your corner.

I do want to pause for a moment, I will be remised Sean, if I didn’t explain the Phillies reference to our listeners.

[0:32:05.6] SR: Okay, all right, that’s fair.

[0:32:06.8] TU: So, if our listeners don’t know, Sean’s in New Hampshire but he’s a huge Boston sports guy, and just in the past week, Tim Baker’s Phillies were eliminated from the NLCS and I assume as a Red Sox fan, that’s just beaming with joy, right? You’re a Red Sox fan.

[0:32:23.6] SR: You know, I am a Red Sox fan but honestly, with the Phillies this year, I kind of thought it was a team of destiny sort of thing, I’ll root against a Philadelphia team if they’re going up against the Boston team because I mean it’s the in-law sort of thing. And you know if it’s the 76ers, I don’t like because they’re in conference and stuff but the Phillies, it’s NLAL, I actually was pulling for them. So, I was rooting for them by that one but at the same time, it’s a little bit of win-win.

[0:32:50.4] TU: But the other thing why Sean is having a good week is I think the listeners know me, I’m a huge Buffalo Bill’s fan, and the New England Patriots miraculously beat the Buffalo Bills this week so.

[0:32:58.8] SR: Yes, which the term miraculous wouldn’t really have made sense for the last 20 or so years but now, it definitely does. So yeah, it’s been a good week but I think I’ll be crashing back down to reality this weekend, so we’ll see.

[0:33:09.5] TU: Only the Buffalo Bills hand, Bill Belichick a milestone win, so I’m going to leave at that. All right, number five on our list is projections, estimated payments, making sure we’re setting money aside. I’m guessing if we have listeners that have been at this for a while, they’ll probably remember maybe an early part of their journey where it’s like, “Oh, I didn’t think about that” right?

Didn’t know how to make estimate payments, didn’t think about how much I should set aside, and how I should project that. So, who needs to be making quarterly payments and talk to us about the process of determining that and then setting aside those dollars in planning?

[0:33:43.8] SR: Yep, so I mean doing a projection, it all kind of comes back to what I was talking about way the beginning of this saying the difference between tax planning and tax preparation. So tax preparation, I actually always use the same analogy, I’ll use it again but I always think of tax planning as being like a film director who can sort of see things as they’re going with the actors and change course and say, “Hey, cut, re-film that, do this over.”

And then tax preparation is the film editor who gets all the stuff and still plays an important role, works their magic, makes it all look nice. But it’s all stuff that’s already been done and you can’t turn back time and re-film any of those things, right? So, all of the kinds of theme of this entire conversation has been the idea of tax planning and actually being able to project what you think your liability is going to be at the end of the year.

And that’s where you start to get into what you’re just talking about, now we’re not talking about, “Hey, what is and what isn’t deductible” but now it can look at, “Hey, where do we have opportunities to take advantage of tax code and make a purchase and take advantage of accelerated depreciation or change our entity classification or something?” But in order to do that, you need to be able to do a projection.

In order to be able to do a projection, you need to have books and in order to have books, you have records. So, you see how it all kind of works itself up, right?

[0:35:00.9] TU: Yeah.

[0:35:01.4] SR: But yeah, I mean, a projection, I think the biggest thing there, so it all comes down to what your tax classification is. So, if it’s Schedule C, you’re kind of looking at what you expect your profit and loss to be at the end of the year and you’re building that into your 1040 and then similarly, if you’re a chair holder of even an S-Corp or partnership or something, you’re going to get your distributed share of that income on a K1 at the end of the year.

That’s going to come into your tax return, so it’s a little bit of – most of the time it’s thinking more about the tax on your personal side and less so on the business side. A lot of small businesses actually are passed through entities, where the business itself was not paying the tax, it’s actually the owners or the shareholders. So, when I say tax planning for your business, it actually is really a little bit more tax explaining on the personal side.

But how does my business play into that and the biggest piece there is that usually small businesses will be subject to self-employment income, number one. And number two is that almost always business income won’t have any withholdings associated.

[0:36:00.4] TU: Yeah.

[0:36:00.8] SR: So, that’s when you need to start thinking about, “Do I have to make estimated payments? Should I be setting money aside at the end of the year?” So, there’s ways to do that, I mean again, doing a projection and really kind of you know, projection is kind of what it sounds like, you’re basically building a tax return now just with what you think it’s going to end at the end of the year.

So doing that is good and then that will get you, “Hey, this is what I think my tax bill is going to be and this is what I think my withholdings are going to be” and everything and if you think you’re going to owe more than a thousand dollars, you should be making estimated payments, that’s the general rule. There’s something called the safe harbor, so the easy calc there, the easiest way to do it and being ultra-conservative as accountants tend to is take last year’s tax liability and multiply it by 110%, 1.1.

And as long as you pay that in by the end of the year through withholdings and/or estimated payments or some kind of combination, then you won’t have any penalties. You can also do that with this year’s 90% of this year’s tax. But if you can – what I’m getting out with that, that’s not a known number, your last year’s tax liability is on your –

[0:37:04.6] TU: More conservative, yeah.

[0:37:05.5] SR: This year’s tax liability, you probably have a good handle on it but it could change, right?

[0:37:09.8] TU: Especially if you’re growing or there – just thinking about variability and this is another example, just a peak behind the curtain, Sean, of, you advising us here at YFP, this is something we’re looking at you know evolving into the future. So, you know we’re big believers in the Profit First methodology. We’ve talked about that before on the show, great book, great resource.

There is a recommendation there for X percent of all revenue should go into a tax account. But what we found for us is that wasn’t a perfect number, because of just our personal situation as well as some of the tax benefits of being in the great State of Ohio, you know?

[0:37:09.8] SR: Right.

[0:37:43.5] TU: And then, so there’s – that’s one example where things are unique, and then we kind of evolve to our own calculation, which I would say is probably closer to maybe the general rule of thumb that’s out there of, “Hey, take 25%, set it aside” and then we realize, “Hey, that’s got some holes because tax situations are different.” You know, how many kids you have, what’s the total household income, all of these variables, right?

So, I think the projection piece along with what you’re suggesting on the safe harbor is so important, right? As you’re planning for the business because you want to find yourself in that situation where you don’t want a bunch of money sitting in an account that as a growing business, if you didn’t have to make that much in tax payments you could have utilize to grow the business.

There is an opportunity cost there but we also don’t want to be surprised and put a stress on the cash flow of our business that we go to file in April and we’ve got this big tax bill due.

[0:38:33.9] SR: Exactly, it’s a push-and-pull kind of thing.

[0:38:35.6] TU: Yeah.

[0:38:35.9] SR: So, being able to – at any extent that you’re able to nail that down as close as you can, like you’re saying, it’s better that way, right? You don’t want to loan the government any more money than you have to but you also don’t want to end up owing a ton of money that you may or may not have or on top of that, have any penalties where I think is associated with it too, so yeah.

[0:38:52.8] TU: Number six on our checklist, Sean, relate to the S-Corp status, I would pursue maybe outside of, “Hey Sean, can I deduct this expense?” maybe the second most common question or pretty close to the top is, “Should I be a S-Corp?” It’s one of those things that people just throw out there of, “Hey, there’s tax benefits of being an S-Corp status.” Tell us more about what that means and when people may be asking or should be asking that question.

[0:39:14.8] SR: Yeah, and I mean again, the theme of the whole thing is that you’re kind of looking at these things and at least at one point in the year, hopefully around now, but actually more ongoing, but at least at one point in the year saying, “What is my tax classification now and is that what it’s going to be next year or does that make the most sense next year?” So, before I even do S-Corp I’ll give the three like I had mentioned earlier in the call.

The three most common ones that I would think of small businesses as a sole proprietorship, one person that’s what you see on your schedule, see they call it, and if you – and the biggest thing with this is that for all of these different classifications, LLCs can be any one of these. That’s the thing, if people will say, “Oh, I’m an LLC” any one of these, an LLC is a legal entity distinction versus these are tax classifications.

You can be an LLC and classify in any one of these, as long as you fit the right requirements. So, that’s one thing to keep in mind. Again, people hear that, they think it means something different or, “Hey, my taxes are going to be different.” It doesn’t necessarily mean the case. So, sole proprietorships are the most common. If you file an LLC for a single person, that’s the default.

The biggest thing there is that, that is subject to self-employment tax, and then again, that does not have – there’s no withholding. So, you’d want to make sure that you’re keeping track of any estimated payments and stuff. Partnerships is the default for an LLC with two plus people. So, if you and your friend or you and your sibling or something go start a business and you start an LLC, the default for that one is a partnership and that actually is a different tax return and everything.

So that’s where again, it begins to become a little bit more than just, “Hey, I’m starting this little business.” Your share of ownership income from a partnership is subject to self-employment taxes. So, when you get your K1 at the end of the year from your partnership, that is subject to self-employment tax, which basically is just the employer portion of FICA that you don’t have because you don’t have an employer, it’s you.

S-Corps is the more kind of exciting piece. So that is, you can have any number of owners but that is where you’re actually incorporating your business and you’re basically – it’s being taxed like a corporation now. And the biggest thing with that is that you don’t have the self-employment tax portion for what you get on your K1. So, if you were in a partnership today and you and your partners each got a K1 and reported that income, there’s self-employment tax on it.

And then you become an S-Corp tomorrow, effectively that same stuff that’s on that K1, that same income is not subject to self-employment tax. Now, you’re probably thinking to yourself, “Wow, that sounds too good to be true.” It’s not that it is, it’s just that there are catches associated with it and the biggest catch is that when you make that jump to S-Corp, you have to be able to pay yourself as an owner a reasonable W2 salary with the FICA withholdings and everything, AKA, self-employment tax on top of any profit distributions that you’re going to be making, and that right there is the deciding point.

Well, what people will probably say is, “Okay, well, what’s a reasonable salary and when can I make that?” and there comes my cop-out accountant answer of, “It depends” and it really does depend because you can think about a million different things. “All right, hey, I am starting a small business and I am going to be the CEO and I’m a pharmacist who is going to be providing advisory on pharmacy things.”

Okay, is your salary a CEO salary? Because I’m sure if I Google CEO salary, the average is probably 10 million dollars or something. Is it pharmacist’s salary? Is that, I mean, are you doing mostly pharmacy-related things? Well, you’re probably will also going to be doing some bookkeeping and administrative stuff too, right? So, is it kind of an admin salary? Figuring out what that is, there really is no science to it.

It is more of an art than a science. You have to be able to say, “Hey, this is a job that I’m doing, you know, these are comparable salaries of people that are making” and you have to be able to pay yourself, “Hey, this is what I feel and I truly believe isn’t a reasonable wage per my industry per the work that I’m doing and everything”, and you need to be able to do that again before you make that jump to S-Corp.

And in order, once again, to determine if you can do that, you need to be able to say, “Hey, where am I in the books? Where do I expect my profit to be this year? Do I think I’m going to have a ton of profit on my K1 or I’m going to have a lot of self-employment tax? I don’t want to pay that self-employment tax, so now can I switch to S-Corp?” Well, let’s see. Do I have enough room in my profits from last year to cut myself a salary that the IRS will think is reasonable compared to other entrepreneurs that are doing the same sort of thing?

I don’t know. I mean, I really would have to look at your finances and we’d have to talk about a lot of things. It’s a very, very long conversation but it’s a very important one because it can save you a lot of money in taxes. But it all kind of comes down to – my questions back to you will be, “What’s your expected profit and loss look? What have you been taking as distributions so far?”

And if you can’t answer those questions, then we can’t even have this conversation. So it’s a lot of it depends but it all once again comes back to being able to have the numbers to even start to have that conversation to begin with. So, if anybody is still awake, I hope that kind of explains that.

[0:44:27.8] TU: It’s good.

[0:44:28.1] SR: I’m sure that put quite a few folks to sleep.

[0:44:30.6] TU: No, it was good because this comes up so much, right? We’ve talked about this internally a lot of what’s the right amount of paying ourselves and how do we determine that and it’s so subjective, right? And number seven on our list was going to be payroll and paying yourself enough. So, you did a nice job of covering on both of those in one.

[0:44:45.2] SR: Yep, exactly.

[0:44:46.0] TU: And you know, just for some insights and how we have handled this, not to say this is advice in any way, shape, or form, and I would reference people. There’s a book called, Simple Numbers, Straight Talk, Big Profits! that is written by Greg Crabtree that I think does a nice job of addressing this issue.

[0:45:01.6] SR: Yes.

[0:45:02.1] TU: Not just from a, “Hey, the IRS is going to be concerned” if you’re kind of applying like a stockless salary, but also I think what’s important about this is, are you thinking about your salary in the context of what the business is and potentially is worth? So, what I mean by that is let’s say Tim Baker and I decided that at some point we want to wake up and sell our business.

Well, if somebody buys it, they may not want to operate it necessarily. Maybe they do but if they don’t, they’re going to be asking themselves, “Hey, what does it cost to replace Tim or what does it cost to replace Tim?” And so if that answer is X and we’re paying ourselves a lot less than that – because then you could argue, are we really giving ourselves a true look at the profitability, the actual profitability of the business?

And I think paying yourself an equitable salary is not only is the right thing to do by the eyes of the IRS but it also really helps you think about where is the business going and growing. Now, there is a balance there, right? If you don’t have to pay yourself USD 200,000, you can save on taxes and argue you’re paying yourself a reasonable salary, then obviously you want to do that.

So, good resource and reference I think about with that book I mentioned. Sean, number eight on our list, which is our last item on the small business owner checklist, is seeing about some of the big purchases. We talked about deductible expenses but specifically want to dig a little bit deeper around Section 179 deductible expenses. Tell us more there.

[0:46:26.1] SR: Yeah, that’s so – that’s really when you think about deductible expenses, the IRS basically says, “Hey, nothing is deductible unless we tell you that it is pretty much.” And when they start to incentivize larger purchases it’s because that’s what they want people to invest in. So, Section 179 is effectively the government’s way of saying, “Hey, typically you have these big things like vehicles and other equipment type purchases that you’d have to pay for upfront now but then only be able to take a little bit into depreciation every year.”

“That’s not fair to small businesses, we want to encourage folks to put money to the business. So, we’re going to let you if you buy things that fit these bills, take that money on the first year.” Which is awesome to be able to do, especially if you have to make these purchases and it makes sense for your business. But the biggest thing by far that I would say and once again, it rolls back into everything is you really want to make sure like, “Hey, do I have to make these purchases at some point now or in the near future or am I just doing this so I can get a deduction this year?”

Because yeah, it’s great to get a tax deduction but that’s really only a percentage. It’s not a credit, it’s not a dollar-for-dollar savings, it’s really only a percentage of a savings. So, if it’s something that you have to spend, “Hey, I’m going to have to buy a car next year anyway and I have all this profit this year and I can take that depreciation and offset those profits,” cool, but you need to be able to figure that out and if you don’t have good numbers, you can’t do it.

[0:47:43.5] TU: Yeah.

[0:47:43.5] SR: And if you look at your numbers and saying, “Hey, I’m going to break even right now and I don’t need a car,” then you probably shouldn’t be going out there and trying to take advantage of the Section 179 file.

[0:47:51.0] TU: Yeah, great stuff. We’ve covered a lot, Sean, on this and we’re going to come back to these topics in the future on the show but we want to have this one episode that we could point back to and say, “Hey, small business owner” again, whether you’ve been established and you want to go back and look at some of these things or you’re just getting started wanting to build a strong foundation, we wanted this episode to be that resource.

So, looking forward to building upon this in the future as well. If folks want to learn more about the tax and accounting services that we offer, that Sean and his team offer at YFP Tax, you can go to yfptax.com. We’ll link to that in the show notes as well. You can book a free discovery call to learn more about those services, we’ll learn more about you to determine whether or not there’s a good fit there.

For business owners, we offer everything from business tax filing, bookkeeping, all the way up to fractional CFO services, payroll, so depending on where you’re at in the journey, it might be, “Hey, we need all of that” or “We just need a portion of that” and we could grow together over time. So, Sean, thanks so much again for your time.

[0:48:47.3] SR: Thank you, Tim, have a good one.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:48:48.9] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast, First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20% for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists on the YFP community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s Pharmacist Home Loan, which requires a 3% down payment for a single-family home or townhome for first-time home buyers, has no PMI on a 30-year fixed rate mortgage.

To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s Pharmacist Home Loan and to get started with the preapproval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:49:33.4] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information on the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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