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YFP 216: Common Credit Blunders to Avoid When Buying a Home

Posted on by yfpadmin

Common Credit Blunders to Avoid When Buying a Home

On this episode, sponsored by IBERIABANK/First Horizon, Tony Umholtz discusses common credit blunders when buying a home.

About Today’s Guest

Tony graduated Cum Laude from the University of South Florida with a B.S. in Finance from the Muma College of Business. He then went on to complete his MBA. While at USF, Tony was part of the inaugural football team in 1997. He earned both Academic and AP All-American Honors during his collegiate career. After college, Tony had the opportunity to sign contracts with several NFL teams including the Tennessee Titans, New York Giants, and the New England Patriots. Being active in the community is also important to Tony. He has served or serves as a board member for several charitable and non-profit organizations including board member for the Salvation Army, FCA Tampa Bay, and the USF National Alumni Association. Having orchestrated over $1.1 billion in lending volume during his career, Tony has consistently been ranked as one of the top mortgage loan officers in the industry by the Scotsman’s Guide, Mortgage Executive magazine, and Mortgage Originator magazine.

Summary

Tony Umholtz, a mortgage manager for IBERIABANK/First Horizon, discusses the impact of credit on purchasing a home and common credit blunders that he has encountered when working with pharmacists during the lending process for the pharmacists home loan product.

Tony explains how credit and your credit score can impact your home buying process. Your credit score can affect your interest rate for a home loan. He details how credit information is collected and how the three main credit bureaus, Experian, TransUnion, and Equifax, aggregate your FICO score. Tony lays out how the scores are calculated, with payment history making up 35% of the score, credit utilization making up 30%, length of history with 15%, and credit mix with 10%.

Some common blunders that Tony has seen when working with pharmacists include having no credit or limited credit history, maxing out a 0% interest rate credit card, and relying on third-party credit tools for an accurate FICO score. Tony further shares that clients may not be checking credit reports and correcting errors that may appear on those reports. During the home loan process, borrowers have also made the credit blunders of co-signing for a loan without fully knowing how it would impact their credit and applying for credit for large purchases like a car or furniture for the whole before the sale is final. The lender knows and can see those last-minute credit applications and changes, and those changes can impact your loan approval.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tony, welcome back to the show.

Tony Umholtz: Hey, Tim. It’s good to be here.

Tim Ulbrich: Excited to have you back on. And last time we had you on was Episode 204, where we talked about the current state of buying, selling, and refinancing a home. And we’re going to link to that episode in the show notes. But Tony, before we jump into the meat of today’s episode, give us the update from your perspective on what’s happening out there in the home buying market. Anything cooling off?

Tony Umholtz: Well, you know, it depends on what you mean by cooling off. It’s still — we’re still kind of dealing with a lot of the same challenges we’ve had this past year with inventory levels are still very, very low. But there’s still a lot of demand from home buyers. And you know, hopefully we’ll see some of that additional inventory come online soon. But with interest rates continuing to decline throughout the summer, there’s still a lot of demand for both new purchases and refinances.

Tim Ulbrich: I suspected as much as interest rates came back down. I know we saw a little bit of a jump up and have come back down since. So appreciate the perspective that you share on that. And so today’s episode, the idea for this episode came from a conversation Tony and I had back on Episode 191 where we talked about 10 common mortgage mistakes to avoid. And on that episode, one of those mistakes we talked about was credit. But we wanted to dig deeper, knowing that there’s a lot more to discuss and also to hear from Tony as he can share more about some of the experiences and what he sees folks making often in terms of credit mistakes that might have an impact on their lending situation and through the process. And so you know, these mistakes could lead to surprises, which surprises during the home process, home buying process, are certainly not good things. We want to avoid that. And that could be surprises in the form of a higher interest rate or surprise credit score. And again, we want to do everything that we can to avoid that and making sure that we’re ready and prepared going into the home buying and into the lending process. Tony, before we get into the common mistakes that you see folks making around credit when purchasing a home, let’s start with the mechanics. How does credit information get into one’s lending application? When does this happen? And how does a borrower get rated?

Tony Umholtz: Great question. And you know, there’s really three large repositories that aggregate all of our information as consumers. And that’s Equifax, Experian, and Transunion. So those are the three main bureaus that are out there that are gathering all the data on our credit histories. So for example, you know, any credit cards that we may have, even starting as young as 18 years old, you know, installment loans, car loans, anything — mortgage loans, student loans, all these types of creditors are evaluated by the three bureaus. So they aggregate all the data, our payment history, our performance, how long we’ve had credit, so those are essentially the three bureaus that are kind of watching us, so to speak.

Tim Ulbrich: And I want to dig in a little bit further about the impact one’s credit score can have on their application, ultimately the interest rate in terms of they’re able to access. So before we look at the numbers, remind us the components of one’s credit score, Tony. I’m specifically thinking here about the FICO score.

Tony Umholtz: Yes. So you know, typically when we look at the FICO score — and we’re starting to see a re-emergence of other scoring models, but the primary driver of our credit scores is going to be our payment history. So payment history is by far the biggest driver of our credit score. So meaning on time payments, not having a 30-day delinquency. And I want to just touch on this for a minute because it’s something that’s come up a lot over my career, my nearly 20 years in the business is let’s just say — we just had this incident with one of my borrowers this past week where they did not get a credit card statement. They were selling their house prior to buying the new home they were buying. And he missed a credit card statement that came to the home. And if it’s over 30 days late, you’re reported to the bureaus. So if it’s 15 days late, you’re not reported to the bureaus as a delinquency. But if it’s over 30 days, then it becomes late. So it’s — that’s a question that comes up a lot. And unfortunately, it’s something we had to navigate here at the last minute.

Tim Ulbrich: Oh man.

Tony Umholtz: But payment history is the biggest driver. The next would be credit utilization. And that primarily is going to be driven on revolving credit accounts. And what I mean by revolving credit accounts is going to be your credit cards that you might have or lines of credit. And those are essentially going to be evaluated based upon how much you have borrowed on that card. For example, I always advise people to try to stay at 50-70% of their credit limits. And what that means — so let’s say you had a $10,000 credit limit on your credit card and you ran it up to $9,000 balance. Well, that’s going to report adversely to the creditors, credit bureaus. And remember, credit utilization is 30% weighting of your score. It’s a big weighting. But that’s the other really big driver of your credit history. Those two alone are like 65% of the weighting of what determines your credit. And then the next couple I would say, just to add in here, is length of credit history, you know, the longer you’ve had credit, good credit, the better that’s going to weigh on your score. That’s usually about a 15% driver. And then your credit mix is about a 10% driver. So the types of credit you have is very important too. You know, do you have experience with — you know, a lot of times, people will come in before they buy their first home and they have maybe a car loan, student loans, credit cards, but they haven’t had a mortgage yet. And a lot of times the mortgage will add more — a stronger credit mix. It would be viewed stronger because it’s a bigger installment loan. It’s a little tougher to get. And then the last driver of your score is inquiries. A lot of people will call me and say, “Tony, the inquiries really hurt my score, and I don’t want this to damage my score.” But they really have the least amount of impact on your score. If you go and have a tremendous amount of them at one time, that can hit your credit a little bit. But normally, a couple of inquiries isn’t going to have much of an impact.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and it sounds like, Tony, you mentioned several components here, but low hanging fruit, you mentioned payment history, so on-time payments, and then credit utilization, how much of that balance is used each month in terms of the revolving amount. Those two alone making up more than 60%. So you know, I think being in tune of if you’re looking to really optimize credit, I think of some tips here that folks may want to consider, specifically with payment history and on-time payments, something like automatic payments, right? Obviously we want to make sure we’ve got the funds to pay that money, you know, in the account that that’s coming from, but the example you gave of someone not getting a mailed statement, hopefully folks can get electronic statements, you know, as a backup to help prevent that. But something like automatic payments can really help make sure that we don’t have something like that happen, especially if you’re in the midst of purchasing a property where the timing of that is less than ideal. I would also point folks here to an episode, 162. Tim Baker and I talked about Credit 101, and what Tony just mentioned there of the makeup of a FICO score was one part of that discussion. But we also talked about credit security, the importance of understanding your credit, how credit really is a thread across the financial plan, and so credit being a very important topic as it relates to the financial planning process. Tony, I’m someone listening today, and I feel like I’ve got a good idea of my credit score. And the question that comes to mind here is how significant of an impact can this have on securing the best rates and terms? And so you know, what I’m thinking of here is 30-year mortgage, maybe because of a higher or lower credit score, we’re looking at maybe a quarter of a percent. And maybe that doesn’t look as much of a big deal on paper as it actually can be mathematically, so tell me about what the impact of this might be.

Tony Umholtz: Well, the longer term the loan is, the more impactful your credit history — your credit scores are going to be. So it’s a good point, Tim, because you know, for example, if you have a 710 score versus a 740, you’re going to get probably about an eighth to a quarter better rate on a 30-year loan having over a 740. Typically on most of our mortgages, over 740 does not get much more benefit.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Tony Umholtz: So a 740 score versus an 800 score isn’t going to see a huge benefit. Some of the jumbo loans that get over $550,000 may see a little bit more of a benefit because they have some pricing matrices — the matrix will go up to 780 or higher. But where you really see the impact is like if you’re under 700, right, and you’re at 660 versus even a 700, talking about a large margin risk profile added to the loan, especially on a 30-year fixed. One thing I do want to mention that I think it’s important is the shorter the term, especially on a 15-year fixed, the more flexibility you have with the credit score. So I’ve even had some customers that have been under 700 and it really impacted their 30-year rate, but the 15-year rate stayed the same because the hits don’t really adjust to that until you get even lower because a lower term, you’re paying back the loan faster.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that makes sense. And I would encourage folks, even though that may not seem significant, eighth of a percent, quarter of a percent, when you’re talking about Tony’s comment, a 30-year mortgage, $400,000 or $500,000 home, you know, that can start to add up in terms of obviously difference in monthly payment because of that interest as well as the difference in what you’re going to pay over the life of the loan. And here, we start to think about opportunity costs, right? Where else might that be used in other parts of the financial plan, whether it be investing, other debt repayment, and so forth. So now that we’ve talked about the makeup of the FICO and really understanding that score components and the impact that that might have, let’s talk about some of the common mistakes that you see, Tony, folks that make when they’re applying for really any loan but here, we’re going to talk about the pharmacist home loan a little bit more specifically. And the first one I have here is no or limited credit history. So we’ve been talking for the last five minutes or so about the importance that, you know, a higher credit score can have in getting more favorable rates and terms. So if someone’s listening and they have limited credit history or no credit history, what are the problems that can present themselves there? And what are some of the solutions that they can pursue?

Tony Umholtz: Well, it’s one of those things where especially if you’re young, it’s hard to come right in with very established credit. But I would suggest, I mean, just a couple points here. You know, one thing that — and I didn’t realize, and I’ll just take my own example. But I remember my first day, first month let’s just say, of my freshman year of college, there was a credit card company on campus where you could get a credit card, right? And being the finance major that I am, I was one of those guys that didn’t charge much but used it here and there. And it helped me with my credit history. And I’ve seen that. If you can get even a small credit card even in college, even if it’s got a couple hundred dollar limit, and you use it as a wise steward, right, you’re not out there running it up, I think that’s a great way to start building your credit. That really helped me because I had a solid credit score coming out of college. And I see that with other people too. Now, student loans being paid on time, that all helps as well because student loans will show up quickly too. I do have a situation now with a client that we’ve had to like rebuild their — they had no credit. They had zero credit history, right? So there’s no score. And that becomes a real challenge, especially — I mean, for example, the pharmacist home loan, we do — you don’t have to have a real in-depth credit history. You really can have a fairly young credit history, but you have to have a score. You know, we have to know what that score is. The only other option we have if you have no credit score that we have available is FHA where we essentially kind of have to build your credit history to some degree. But that’s kind of a rare thing these days. But that’s — every now and then, we run into that. I would just say to start building it early. Having some credit is not a bad thing. Just be responsible with it.

Tim Ulbrich: Tony, I’ve heard you say that before about for those that have no or limited credit history, the FHA is an option and building credit. Tell me more about what you mean by that.

Tony Umholtz: So when we say building credit, we essentially are using other types of forms — like for example, you might have paid auto insurance, right, or utility bills, or rent. We’re able to pull some of these other types of elements of payment history together to show responsibility and the ability to repay. So those are some of the things that we’ll actually use to build the credit history as well as we suggest to get a credit card or something to that effect to — depending on their timing and when they want to buy to start developing that so they can at least get a score. But having a score is pretty critical to get the best loans, you know. Really the only one that we have out there is FHA that will allow us to work without a credit score.

Tim Ulbrich: Got you. Another common mistake I’ve heard you mention is, you know, folks that might have purchased an appliance, piece of furniture, there’s several examples of this, on a 0% interest card and not realized the impact that that might have when they’re going through the lending process and purchasing a home. Tell us more about that.

Tony Umholtz: You know, this is another one, Tim, that I learned firsthand personally when I was young and lots of my — I’ve seen it many times over the years with my clients, but you know, I’ll give the example of buying furniture. Fortunately, I did this after I bought my home. I was 25 I think at the time. It was a long time ago. But essentially, I went into a furniture store, was able to buy all this furniture, and they said, “Hey, by the way, that $4,800 in furniture, we’ll give you a credit card where you don’t have to pay interest for over a year.” I said, “Well, that sounds great. Let’s do it.” And you won’t have to make payments for over a year. Well, unfortunately, how those credit cards work — and they’re in all sorts of retail goods. It’s not just furniture. There’s a lot of different promotions out there. It reports to the bureaus as a maxed-out credit card. So you know, a lot of electronics companies are the same way. They’ll offer this to you. And you’ve just got to beware because it’ll report to the bureaus as a maxed-out credit card. And as we discussed, 30% of our weighting of our credit score is based upon credit utilization. If we show a maxed-out credit card, that’s going to be a big hit to our score. And I see that a lot. It’s unfortunate. But it comes up a lot.

Tim Ulbrich: And you taught me that, Tony. I did not know that that was often viewed as a maxed-out credit card. So obviously what we just learned about FICO and utilization, that makes a whole lot of sense of the impact that that could have. So we talked about no or limited credit history, we talked about buying an appliance or piece of furniture or something like that on a 0% card. The other thing I’ve heard you mention several times — and I think we’re seeing more and more as folks are using more of these tools — would be relying on a third-party credit app or tool, whether it be something like CreditKarma, CreditSesame, when we’re relying on that for credit score information that may not match up necessarily with what you’re seeing on the lending side. Is that correct?

Tony Umholtz: That’s right, Tim. Yeah. That’s right. And I think this is an important topic because there’s a lot of variables out there. And I don’t want to say that these like a CreditKarma and some of the other apps and trackers aren’t legitimate and helpful. They certainly are. And they give you a good idea of the trend of your credit score and how you’re performing. The one thing I would caution everyone on, though, is it’s not typically indicative of what your score is to a creditor. Now, mortgage companies in particular, we run what’s called a tri-merge report, which is all three bureaus. So we’re going to see Equifax, Experian, and Transunion’s, each of them give us a score, provide us a score. And we take the median score. So mortgage lenders take the media score where — and the same thing would apply for like a commercial loan if you’re getting commercial loan for a building or something of substance. An auto company, if you’re buying a car, will often just pull one. So they may just pull Experian, right? Or Equifax. So you know, a lot of times there is a little bit of variability in our scores. And they can be different. Our Equifax score could be potentially be 750, our Experian could be 739, and our Transunion might be 730. Well in that case, you’re at 739, not over 740. And that’s where I see the mistake come up because a lot of these trackers will show you a score that’s a little higher than what we would see. And a lot of my customers send me — my clients will say, “Hey, here’s my report, here’s my credit score.” And it’s oftentimes a lot different than what we pull. But I think there’s a lot coming on scores over the next couple years. I think you’ll see different ways of risk assessment. It hasn’t hit us yet, but I think rental performance will come into play more too. It’s important to always pay our rents on time. You know, traditionally that didn’t always come up on reports. But I think there’s going to be some other elements that are going to potentially help us. And I think you’ll see that the medical collections take less weight on the reports. We’re already seeing that too, which is really a blessing for a lot of people that have had things happen.

Tim Ulbrich: Tony, I can see this playing out. You know, you gave a good example where somebody might be on that line, let’s say a 740, and they think because of what they see on CreditKarma or CreditSesame that they’re going to be above that and then come to find out that they’re not, and that obviously can have a surprise and be an impact on rates. And you know, I’m sure — it reminds me of the patient that might walk through the doors of the pharmacy and be upset with the pharmacist because of what they get through claims adjudication on the insurance side. And the pharmacist is often not deciding that price, but the reality is they’re the person that’s in front of the patient. And I suspect here, that can be much of the same where they may be surprised and take it out on you guys sometimes.

Tony Umholtz: It happens.

Tim Ulbrich: It happens, right?

Tony Umholtz: We’re the messenger.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. It’s an emotional process.

Tony Umholtz: It is. One thing that we find that’s been helping too is we have a tool as part of our platform here that can actually tell — we can see what credit — what the scoring potential for a client based upon activities they could do to their report such as paying down debt, consolidating a card or whatever it might be. So it actually — we are able to a lot of times add some value to help people get their scores a little higher. We’ve had a lot of success with that.

Tim Ulbrich: The next one I have here, Tony, is borrowers that may not be checking their credit reports and therefore identifying and correcting any errors that could lead to higher rates. And this one is really something that I find interesting. You know, I do an activity in a personal finance course that I teach where I have folks actually go out, pull their credit reports, analyze them, and then they write a reflection on kind of what they learned. And the trends I have found is that about 50% of the students No. 1, have never checked credit before, have never run a credit report. And then the number of folks that are surprised by what they find on that credit report. So any insights here, even any examples that come to mind of where this can be problematic, especially when you’re in the midst of trying to secure a loan and secure a loan at the best rate?

Tony Umholtz: I think it’s really important for everyone to take advantage of the free credit reports that are out there. You know, the annualcreditreport.com. You’re allowed to have one copy from each bureau per year. And I think that’s something that we all need to do. And the surprises I think are hey, I thought I canceled that credit card years ago, right? And sometimes having open credit — it doesn’t hurt you. But you may not want to have a whole bunch of things out there just from a fraud risk potential. But — and making sure that you’re not attached to things you don’t want to be attached to. You just — in this day and age, you never know, and especially if you get into partnerships and cosigning and things like that, you’ve got to be really careful about what you’re attached to and knowing what entities your credit, you’re attached to. That’s one thing I would just caution because I’ve seen some problems come up with cosigning and people not being aware that they did or applications from everything from student loans to auto loans to business loans. And then just there is a lot of fraud out there, you know? And I think that I’m on LifeLock. I’m not trying to promote anything, I just, I’ve put that on me and my wife’s accounts just so we know what’s going on, right, in case anything ever were to happen we’d be made aware. But certainly would encourage everyone to do that. And you know, I think just knowing what’s out there. I know when I did it one time, I had a credit card that I hadn’t used in like 6-7 years and it was still open, right? If you don’t use it, might want to close it.

Tim Ulbrich: And I’m glad you mentioned the cosigner because I do think that’s something that we hear and see often from the community, whether that’s student loans, whether that’s auto loans, whatever be the situation, obviously there’s a potential risk there of late payments, somebody may or may not be aware of that and the impact that that could have during the credit and obviously impact that could have on your credit and then the surprise that could present during the lending process. Tony, last one I want to talk about here before we wrap up by talking about the pharmacist home loan product is applying for credit before sale is final. And I think many of us who have gone through this process, we’ve gotten the advice of, do as little as you can in terms of new credit or inquiries or anything during this process. But give us some more details, not only why is this important but what is the time period that we should be thinking about this because I sense that there are listeners out there that might be buying a home and also be thinking about refinancing their loans, for example.

Tony Umholtz: Right. And this one is really important, guys, if you’re in process for a home loan because us lenders, we know what you’ve applied for during the process. We’re notified if you secure a new loan. So for example, one that comes up a lot is a new auto loan, a — furniture for the home. I’ve seen that quite a bit. And a lot of our clients are proactive and ask the question first. And we will look and see. If it’s something like hey, my car absolutely won’t work anymore, I need to get a new one, we’ll look and see, will that impact you. We’ll include that new payment into your numbers so it doesn’t affect your home closing. But normally, you want to try to postpone any activity, new credit, when you’re in the mortgage process until after you close just because there’s a lot of risk there, right? It’s a big transaction. You do not want to jeopardize it with new credit because we do know about it. We will know. We are notified if you open anything up. And that’s a really important point if you’re in the process. So I would just caution everyone to be very careful with that. And I will give the classic example. Before they tracked, this is going back probably 2005, I remember I went to this closing for a client of mine, and it was a fairly nice home. And he goes, “Hey, Tony, look at my new car I bought last week!” And the guy had bought a new Porsche, right? This is before we had the trackers. I’m like, don’t tell me this. Oh, don’t tell me that. But anyway, nowadays, we do know what activity has happened. And be very careful. And if you have to do something, just speak to your lender first before you officially apply for any other types of credit during the process.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that’s where my mind was going, Tony, just knowing the examples that might come here, right? It could be credit, we talked about some of these already, furniture, appliances, student loans, auto loans. Like there’s a lot of things that could come up here, and I think just open communication with the lender if you have questions to make sure that you’re not doing anything that’s going to jeopardize obviously, again, the goal here being that we get the best loan at the best term, you know, and ultimately the best rate so that we can keep the cost of interest low throughout the life of the loan. So Tony, we’ve talked about the makeup of the FICO score, understanding what feeds into that score. We talked about the impact that that could have on someone’s rate and their ability to secure that competitive rate. We talked about some of the common mistakes that you see folks making around credit in the home buying. And I think this is a good connection to the pharmacist home loan product. And I know many of our community members are familiar with this from previous episodes, information we have on the website, but for folks that are hearing this for the first time, give us some more information about the pharmacist home loan, what is it, how it’s different from other options that are out there in terms of down payment, PMI, minimum credit scores, and so forth.

Tony Umholtz: Sure. I mean, again, just a great tool for pharmacists to purchase a home. And the main points of it is you’re able to buy a home — if you’re a first-time home buyer, you could put down as little as 3% and have no PMI. And if you’ve owned a home before, it’s 5% down with no PMI. And that’s significant savings not having the MI but also the interest rates tend to be better than I can offer with a 20% down normal conventional loan for someone else, which is quite a nice opportunity for people. And the minimum credit score is 700. So it doesn’t have like a super high credit threshold. And it’s flexible on reserves and things like that. You know, some programs have very strict reserve requirements, and this one has some flexibility there, has some flexibility on how we value student loans, and you don’t have to be — you know, one of the other things that a lot of doctor loan programs have out there is some of them have restrictions if you’ve been out of residency for 10 years, you can’t use the product. This one does not have those limitations. So it’s — it’s been a great tool for a lot of people. And we’re very pleased that we can offer it.

Tim Ulbrich: And we’ll put Tony’s contact information in the show notes for folks that want to reach out to Tony directly. Also, if you haven’t already done so, make sure to check out — we’ve got a great comprehensive post, very informational, that I think you’ll find helpful, “Five Steps to Getting a Home Loan.” And you can — in that blog post, which we’ll link to in the show notes — learn more about the pharmacist home loan product. We’ve got some calculators there as well. And that’s available at YourFinancialPharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s “Five Steps to Getting a Home Loan” at YourFinancialPharmacist.com/home-loan. Tony, as always, appreciate your insights, your expertise in this area, and thank you for the time coming on the show.

Tony Umholtz: Hey, Tim, thanks for having me. It was great to be here.

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YFP 215: Know Yourself, Know Your Money with New York Times Bestseller Rachel Cruze

Posted on by yfpadmin

Know Yourself, Know Your Money with New York Times Bestseller Rachel Cruze

Rachel Cruze discusses her new book, Know Yourself, Know Your Money.

About Today’s Guest

Rachel Cruze is a two-time #1 national best-selling author, financial expert, and host of The Rachel Cruze Show. Since 2010, Rachel has served at Ramsey Solutions, where she teaches people to avoid debt, save money, budget, and how to win with money at any stage in life. She’s authored three best-selling books, including her latest, Know Yourself, Know Your Money: Discover WHY You Handle Money the Way You Do and WHAT to Do About It. Follow Rachel on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube or online at rachelcruze.com.

Summary

National best-selling author and financial expert, Rachel Cruze, joins Tim Ulbrich to discuss her newest book, Know Yourself, Know Your Money: Discover WHY You Handle Money the Way You Do and WHAT to Do About It. Tim and Rachel delve into various portions of the book, highlighting specific lessons and concepts relatable to pharmacists, parents, and anyone interested in learning more about themselves and their relationship to their finances.

Rachel walks listeners through “Discovering Your Personal Money Mindset,” including how we form our ideas about money and how we learn to handle money as we do through “Your Childhood Money Classroom.” Rachel goes through the four money classrooms. She reminds us that regardless of the quadrant that you grew up in, you can choose your quadrant from this point forward. Rachel outlines seven money tendencies, how they not only impact your financial picture, and how these tendencies affect interpersonal relationships with significant others. Tim and Rachel share an earnest discussion about money fears, detailed in Chapters 5 and 6 of the book. They close with an eye-opening discussion on part 2 of the book, focusing on the “Power of Contentment.” Rachel shares how contentment changes your motivation for spending. She explains a practical exercise for determining what brings you joy and demonstrates how learning where and how you find happiness allows you to focus your spending on what is truly important to you.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Rachel, welcome to the show.

Rachel Cruze: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Tim Ulbrich: It’s really an honor to have you on, and I’m excited to talk about your latest book, “Know Yourself, Know Your Money.” And for those listening in the YFP community that are already familiar with the Ramsey baby steps, I think this book does an excellent job covering much of the mindset, the behaviors, the beliefs that are the foundation to ensuring your goals and dreams become a reality. So Rachel, in Part 1 of the book, which is “Discovering Your Personal Money Mindset,” you talk in Chapter 1 about your childhood money classroom. And you make a strong argument that this is the first step in understanding why we handle money the way that we do and that “there are really two ways we learned about money: what our parents communicated emotionally and what they communicated verbally.” Tell us more about these two modes of communication and why it is so important to dig into our past for some honest reflection before we chart our path forward.

Rachel Cruze: Yes, well whenever you talk to any great psychologist or counselor or therapist, they will tell you that so much of who you are today is from how you grew up, whether that’s coping mechanisms, defense strategies, all of that. Learning to kind of survive really in your childhood is something that’s engrained in all of us. And so when I was writing the book, I wanted to go in and say, “OK, I want to understand why we handle money the way we do.” Like you said, it’s not just the what — you know, we talk about the how a lot around Ramsey Solutions, how to get out of debt, how to invest, how to refinance, how to give, but I wanted to answer that question, why? Why do we do the things we do? And it always stems back to that classroom that you lived in, which is your home growing up. And there’s a lot of lessons in those classrooms that we grew up in that you want to unlearn. As an adult, you’re like, I don’t want to take that with me. And there’s a lot of lessons that you do want to take with you. And so being able to just pinpoint, hey, my money habits, the way I view money, part of that is because of my environment growing up. And so those two modes of communication, like you said, the verbal, what is said out loud, and then that emotional state, is really important. So as I was writing the manuscript for this book, you know, kind of coming across these two things, and I remember thinking, oh, OK, it’s like a quadrant. God gave me a graph to explain this, and I’m so happy because it ends up being this four quadrant where that verbal communication and emotional communication intersect. And it ends up really showing these four different money classrooms. And so for you to be able to identify OK, I grew up in Classroom No. 1 or Classroom No. 2 there, and to understand that really will show you why you handle money the way you do today.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and this was really a gut check for me, Rachel, as a father of four young boys, you know, I feel like I do a decent job in communicating verbally about money. It’s something I talk about daily, but it was a gut check on like the emotional part and what are some of the messages that we’re sending to our kids? And so part of this as I read it is unlearning in part or reflecting upon your past but also for those that are out there that are parents, thinking about some of the money scripts and messages that we’re sending in our own homes as well.

Rachel Cruze: That’s right. Yeah. And even that nonverbal, you know, in the classroom, Classroom 1 is the anxious money classroom. And that’s where it’s verbally closed but emotionally stressed. Classroom 2 is the unstable money classroom where it’s emotionally stressed but verbally open, so it’s lots of conflict, lots of fighting. That Classroom 3 is the unaware money classroom, which is emotionally calm but it’s verbally closed. So it’s not talked about, but it’s also not felt. Like it’s a stress point, so you don’t really even — your head is kind of in the sand, if you will, about money until you leave home and realize, oh wow, there’s a lot to do with this subject. And then Classroom 4 is that secure money classroom. And that’s where it’s verbally open but emotionally calm. So that fourth classroom, kind of like what you’re saying, I really wanted the readers to think about their current nuclear family to say, OK, if I do have kids or if I want kids in the future, how am I going to do this on the verbal and emotional scale? And so moving to that Classroom 4 is really important for people because the thing about that is you don’t have to be a perfect parents by any means to be in that classroom. You also don’t have to have a ton of money, right? You don’t have to be like a millionaire to be in that. It’s these habits that you create. And what’s funny is when you’re emotionally calm about money, usually there’s a plan around it, usually there’s a level of healthy control. There’s some safety nets in place like an emergency fund, you know, there’s these habits that you do in the how-to of money that set you up to create that emotionally stable home around this subject where for so many people it’s not safe, it’s not emotionally calm, it is very stressed. And when you look at the statistics of the average American today, I’m like, yeah, I would be stressed too, right? Living paycheck-to-paycheck, having $16,000 of credit card debt, all of it. So I understand why that is, but getting yourself in a place financially where you’re more under control, you’re naturally going to bring in that emotional side in your household, which is amazing. And then the verbal side you pointed out too is talking about it. And I think it’s less taboo today than it was even 20 years ago. I think parents engage their kids in more conversations maybe than the Boomers did for their kids, you know, like when you look at the different generational differences. But again, engaging it and showing the mechanics but also the other side of it of hey, here’s what contentment looks like. Here’s what generosity does to your heart and your viewpoint in life. I mean, you know, bringing in those hard and soft subjects of money are important to talk to about with kids.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I love, Rachel, how you take folks through this journey of understanding these four different classrooms you mentioned in the quadrant. And it can be heavy to kind of walk through and reflect on some of this. But you end Chapter 3 where you talk about calm money classrooms, you end Chapter 3 by reassuring us that our childhood does not define us. You say, “Your childhood may have given you a rocky start, but it doesn’t make or break you, regardless of the household you grew up in. You get to choose your quadrant from this point forward.” What an awesome view, right? We learn from the past, but we’ve got an opportunity to chart a new path going forward.

Rachel Cruze: That’s right, yeah. I mean, there’s so much hope and I think even in the money piece of my messages that I communicate with people is like no matter what mistakes you’ve made, yeah, maybe you do have a ton of debt. So on a more logistical side, yeah, maybe you have a deeper hole to dig out of than the person next to you, but no matter what, you get to make the decisions to say, no, I actually want to change how I view something or the habits around money. And the same is true with your classroom. Some people, a lot of people I would say, grew up in a hard environment when it came to money with their parents. But yet you don’t have to just mirror that story, right? You can take charge of your life to say, you know what, I’m not going to sit here and bash my parents, but I’m also not going to defend them. I’m going to just tell the truth of what happened, and here’s the truth. OK, there’s some good stuff, and there’s some bad stuff. And the bad stuff I can forgive, and I’m going to move forward though to choose something different for my life and my family. And I think it’s powerful. And I think we have to do that in all of parenting. I’m not a parenting expert by any means, but I’m like, you know, my husband and I have said, OK, this is our family. What are we going to choose to do in this? And so the money pieces is part of that.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And give yourself some grace along the way, right?

Rachel Cruze: That’s right. Oh, absolutely. There’s hope in grace. Absolutely.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. Rachel, in Chapter 4, which is “Your Unique Money Tendencies,” you introduce seven major money tendencies. And we’re not going to go through all of these, but I’ll read them off quickly. And those seven are save or spender, nerd or free spirit, experiences or things, quality or quantity, safety or status, abundance or scarcity, and planned giving or spontaneous giving. And I want to break down one of these further that I suspect our audience has heard of before, and that is the concept of being a nerd or being a free spirit. And so this as one example of these different tendencies, tell us more about the difference between these two and why each really has its own benefits and challenges and we want to think about these on a scale.

Rachel Cruze: Yes. Well, when I did these seven tendencies, I didn’t want one to be right or wrong because I feel like that can happen a lot. You know, it’s just no, these are naturally where you’re bent, and if you go to the extremes of any of these tendencies, that can get unhealthy. Kind of that middle ground is to say, ‘OK, I’m naturally bent towards this, but I can actually have a little bit of both,’ which makes you I think more well-rounded, honestly. But yeah, the nerd and free spirit, that was kind of a phrase that was coined, two terms that were coined by my dad, honestly, about probably 20 years ago talking about the budget specifically and how I make it a little bit more broad in just the idea of how you view money, but one of you — or if you’re married, usually opposites attract. But you either lean toward a nerd, which is the one that yeah, you’re just organized, you probably have Excel spreadsheets all over the place, you love to budget, you love to feel in control, you know what’s going on, you keep up with everything, numbers are your friends, it feels great to know what’s going on. And so that nerd is naturally going to be bent one way towards money, which obviously is more the control factor. Sometimes more the scarcity mindset, they want to just know what’s going on. And then the free spirit is on the opposite end, and that’s the person that is more hey, everything is going to work out. It’s fine, it’s fine. A budget to them, it feels restrictive. It feels like there’s no fun in life if I have to live on a budget, that means I have to say no a lot, and I don’t want to say no. I want to say yes because you only live once, you know? It’s a little bit more of that mentality. And what’s funny is I actually lean more free spirit in who I am, so this money stuff and budgeting, some of it was hard for me to say, OK, I have to learn this because I don’t have to become a nerd to be good at money. That’s not the reason behind this. But it is to say, “Hey, there are qualities that I need to pick up,” because if I’m a free spirit on the extreme of the free spirit side, I’m probably going to be broke. I’m probably going to have lots of debt because I’m not keeping up with anything, I’m just doing what I want in the moment, what feels good. And that’s not wise. But I also don’t have to absolutely love numbers like my husband. He is more of the nerd. Like I mean, he has spreadsheets. He’s like all about the five-year goal and what’s going in each month, looking at the mutual funds. I mean, he just loves it. And I’m like, I’m the money person that talks about this every day, and I don’t love it that much. Like I’ll do the budget and track transactions, but that’s about it. So again, it’s just pinpointing hey, here’s where I lean, here’s places I can learn, and here’s some really great things about that side of the nerd or great things about the free spirit. And then if you’re married, again, it’s good to call that too because I think in marriage, money can be such a difficult subject. But to be able to say, “OK, you’re not my enemy in this. You’re just more of a nerd in that or you’re more of a free spirit, so how can we come together and work as a team?”

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, you do a great job in the book going through each one of these sets that I mentioned and not only what they are and some of the differences and where that balance might but also some great exercises at the end of the chapter where folks can reflect upon those, and I think it would be great conversation starters as well for couples that are going through this together. Rachel, Chapters 5 and 6, it gets real, right? You start to talk about your money fears, six of them in total. And I want to pick apart the fear that you say is the most common one you see, which is not having enough. And essentially, this is if something bad happens, the fear that I won’t survive financially. And as you talk about in the book, this could be job loss, this could be a huge health bill, this could be a major house issue. And really, the list can go on and on of all of the things that might go wrong. And it could be a today thing, a today fear, or it could be a future fear. For example, will I have enough when it comes time to retirement? And I think this quickly becomes overwhelming and for many can become paralyzing. And as you say in the book, the “what if” question, it’s a scary question. And so tell us more here, how can we face this fear head-on without it ultimately paralyzing us to take action with our financial plan?

Rachel Cruze: Yeah, when we talk about fear — for this book, I did a lot of research around it because usually fear is just seen as a 100% bad thing, right? Face your fears, don’t let your fear hold you back, all that. Well, some of that, yes, is very true. I remember talking to Dr. Chip Dodd about this, and I loved what he said because he said, fear can actually be a gift. Fear is your body’s response that you are in need of something. Now, again, when that fear becomes paralyzing or turns into anxiety, like any of that, we don’t want that. But just that initial fear, OK, what is that telling you? Because it actually could be telling you something that you need to listen to to diminish that fear. So for a lot of people — and gosh, we just walked through 2020, right, which was just the craziest year I think of all of our lives, around this. And so you could say, OK, my fear is that if something happens, am I going to be OK? If we lose a job, am I going to be OK? Well, you look at your situation and again, just pulling in just stats that I know that 78% of Americans live paycheck-to-paycheck, the average car payment is around $548, the average family owes $16,000 just on their credit cards. So you put all that together and if something happens, are you going to be OK? Well yeah, you’re going to be able to literally survive. But financially, you’re going to be in a mess. You’re going to be in a mess if you don’t have another paycheck to pay these bills. So let’s look at the reality of what’s going on. Again, it’s not to paralyze you, but it’s to say, OK, what can I do now to get in better control of my money? Am I budgeting? Am I living on less than I make? Do I have an emergency fund? And do I have a goal that I’m working towards that actually puts my money towards something, right? Am I giving? Like am I doing these things? And for a lot of people, if they say, “No, I’m not,” hopefully it’s a little bit of a motivator. I don’t think fear has to be the only motivator, but I think it’s a good jumpstart to it of OK, let’s get some things in place so that we can say, OK, maybe you look up in 24, 36 months, three years down the road, and you’re completely debt-free, you have a fully-funded emergency fund of 3-6 months worth of expenses. You now have retirement planned out, you know how much you’re putting in each month, like you actually have a plan in place. And what caused that may have been that fear of wow, if I lose one paycheck, this entire thing just implodes is what it feels like. So again, let that fear drive you. And again, it’s a big one, that fear of am I going to be OK? And what’s interesting is prior to 2020, it was women’s top financial fear. So for some men, it was oh, there’s a dream that I have that I can’t get to because of my life or you fill in the lank. But women day-in and day-out, consistently when surveyed, it was am I going to be OK? And then I think you fast forward to 2021, I don’t have hard data for this, but I would say a lot of people now are in that bucket.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Rachel Cruze: Because of what we walked through. So again, I want this fear to not turn into something that’s super unhealthy, but I want it to be a little bit of that jumpstart to say OK, is this rational? OK, maybe it is. So maybe I need to change some things. But then also I’ll tell you this too: It could be irrational. I mean, my husband and I have been doing this plan for 11 years of marriage, so we are, we’re debt-free — I mean, we’ve done it to the t. And it works, No. 1, I can say that. I’m the proof. But No. 2, even during the pandemic, I had a few nights where I went to bed thinking, oh my gosh, are we going to be OK? But what allowed me a little bit to have that safety is realizing No. 1, black-and-white on paper, the numbers, yes, we’re going to be fine because we’ve been doing this, we’ve been diligent. But also No. 2, Rachel, it’s a little bit of a wakeup call for me emotionally to say why am I so fearful that this foundation that I’ve set, this financial foundation, that if it was shook, who am I? Right? And it made me do a gut check, honestly, to say OK, where is my identity? Where have I been putting value? Because money, while we need to be responsible with it and we want to be able to do things like get out of debt and build wealth and change our family tree and be generous to others, all of these wonderful things, money is not our God. And if it’s the thing day-in and day-out that you’re looking toward, it’s not going to fulfill you. And I kind of got to a place where I had to do a gut check on myself last year to think, OK, who am I emotionally on that side, right, if that foundation is shaken? So again, this fear conversation I think is a really important one to have. And I think it’s a really good one to have.

Tim Ulbrich: I do too. And I think it can be motivating for the reasons that you mentioned. Our listeners have heard me say many times about really building a strong financial foundation and think about what the building blocks of that are. But there are challenges that can be had in the security of that foundation and what you’re ultimately putting that security in. So I think a great reminder. And this section of the book, as I mentioned, really powerful. You talked through several other fears. We’re just scratching the surface here. You talk about the fears of not realizing your dreams, of not being capable, external fears, past mistakes, repeating the past, you know, all types of things that we want to be considering. So I hope folks will pick up a copy of the book and check that out. Rachel, Part 2 of the book, “Discovering What You Do With Money and Why,” you connect the information the reader learns in Part 1 so that it can then be applied to their personal situation. And one thing that stood out to me in this section was the concept that you talk about, the power of contentment. And you say that “contentment is a process that changes your motivation for spending money.” Tell us more about that.

Rachel Cruze: Yeah, contentment I think is a huge piece of this financial conversation that has to be in place because money is like a magnifying glass. It makes you more of what you already are. And so if you are a discontent person and you think — and it’s all of us, you know, at different times in life for sure and maybe different parts of the day too, so I’m not speaking out of that I have found the answer to it all — but realizing though if we live in a discontentment state, which usually results in OK, if I can just make x amount of money, if I can just buy this kind of car, if I can go on that kind of vacation, if I live in this kind of house, then everything is going to be fixed. And we think that in our culture in our country that our problems are fixed by stuff. And that discontentment is just magnified, and the problem is that if you build wealth and you actually have the money to go and get these things, you get the things, and it doesn’t fulfill you and you’re discontent again with just more stuff around you. And so there’s that heart piece that I think is important to keep in check. And for me, it’s calling out to people, OK, what are the things in your life that money — there’s not a price tag towards. And this was kind of my journey even just last year, I thought, Rachel, what are the things in my life that I can’t pay for. Well, that’s a great marriage, having children that I am trying to raise in the best way possible, my health, my spiritual walk, my family, you know, my friendships, like relationships. So kind of mapping those things out and realizing OK, if I can invest my time and my energy in those things, life is so much richer, right? And again, not that it doesn’t mean you can’t have a great house or go on a great vacation. My husband and I just got back on Saturday from a fun trip that him and I just took, you know, for a few nights. It was fantastic. It was wonderful. But those things don’t fulfill you, right? It’s the fact that I was with my husband. And we got to have that time together. That is what was fulfilling. And so all of that I think stems to that contentment, and that contentment piece, again, I think is — we tried to find it in stuff, and I really push people to find it in things that money can’t buy.

Tim Ulbrich: My favorite part of the book, Rachel, is that you make a really good case for the importance of connecting saving and dreaming. Saving and dreaming. And we talk a lot on this show about having a strong financial why. And this chapter reminded me of that concept. You say that, “Not having any savings is a worrying sign for two big problems. The first problem is that your house isn’t in order. You’re not prepared. But not having savings is also a worrying sign of a second problem: that you’re not tuned into your dreams.” What do you mean by this?

Rachel Cruze: Well, when I did this part of the book, you know, I wanted to kind of walk through OK, why do we spend the way we spend? Why do we save the way we save? Why do we give the way we give? And so when I was in that saving section, I was like, OK, why do we save the way we save? And I’m like, well, what are the things we save for? What are the — I’m like, well, it’s because we have these dreams. Is it to build a house one day? Is it to be debt-free? You know, whatever it is, and that gives purpose behind our dollars. It gives us purpose to say OK, when the money comes in, I actually know where it’s going. It’s going to something that I value in life. And that’s what makes things rich, right? That’s what brings joy. And people that just live life and they’re not intentional, it’s just kind of that paycheck-to-paycheck, I go to work, I get paid, I just keep doing the same thing. And you look up in five years and not much has changed about your life, I bet your savings hasn’t changed either because you don’t have a goal, you don’t have something you’re saving towards. And so that dreaming portion, it is, it’s so, so critical. I mean, any great book motivator that shows you how to be better in certain parts of your life, goals are always in there. Those dreams are always in there. And so there’s the short-term dreams, have something that you’re working towards five years and less so that you can get to it quickly. And then have those dreams that are five years or more that you say, OK, out there in the future, what do I want? And then also have shared dreams. If those two dreams don’t coincide with your spouse, then have something you guys are working at together. I mean, all of this is going to be a partnership if you’re married. But I think having those dreams together is so crucial where yes, we are individuals, so my husband may have a dream to go on a hunting trip, you know, to South Dakota. That’s not my dream. That’s great if that’s his dream. It’s not my dream. So what are the dreams that we have together? And so all of that, it gives you such motivation. And it was funny, that trip we just went on last week, we had an agenda. We had like four things we wanted to talk about. But one of them was we literally set our financial dreams. One of ours was to build a house, and we moved in November of ‘19. And honestly, since then, I mean, we went through 2020, which was crazy. Now, we’re kind of on the other side saying, OK, what do we want? Besides just a number, what are the things that we’re shooting for? And just having those conversations, it’s so fun. I mean, it just brings life to you or again, if you’re married, to your marriage, just to have things that you’re working towards together. Again, it gives you purpose. It gives you purpose to save. And if there’s not purpose to save, you’re more than likely not going to do it.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I think shared dreams, it’s so important. Great wisdom. I think especially for folks that are in the weeds and maybe frustrated with the budget or feeling like a goal is taking forever, I think some of those dreams can lift folks together and get excited behind the vision, you know, especially while there’s other things that are happening along the way. Rachel, I want to wrap up our time by talking about giving. And you make the case that giving is ultimately the antidote to fear. Why is that the case?

Rachel Cruze: There’s something about living life with an open hand where you say, “You know what, I’m actually going to give things,” because I think the opposite of that is that closed fist mentality where you’re going to just control everything and it’s all yours and it’s just all right here, and there’s a level of that that just, it gets exhausting. And there’s not joy in that. And so when you actually open your hand and give, which sounds counterintuitive, right, if I’m trying to put money towards a dream or I’m trying to put money towards getting out of debt or building an emergency fund, but I’m giving some of it away, like that just seems so backwards where in fact what it does is it fuels you. Because when you live a life that you move on the spectrum from being selfish where it is all about you to selfless where you actually see other people and you see OK, the needs that are out there, things that your money can do, even if it’s not a lot of money, but using it as a tool to help people, it changes you. I mean, it really, really changes you. And there’s nothing like it. It’s cliche to say, but it’s true. The joy that you get from giving is unlike any other joy that you can have in life. Like it gives something to you, to your soul. Because I think we were created to be givers. And when you’re living in that, it changes your perspective. And I also think selfless people have a better quality of life. I think they’re better spouses, better parents, better coworkers, better friends. You know, people that actually care about other people, it’s an amazing thing, but I think it does, it gives you a quality of life that’s so deep. And I think that it can be — obviously you can give all different kinds of ways, but your money is one of those. And when you live that life with an open hand, it does something to your soul that I think is so, so healthy in a world that is so self-centered.

Tim Ulbrich: Rachel, great, great stuff. Where is the best place that our community can go to connect with you and learn more about your work?

Rachel Cruze: Yeah, you can go to RachelCruze.com. The book “Know Yourself, Know Your Money” is anywhere books are sold. And I’m also — I have a podcast, “The Rachel Cruze Show” you can check out as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. So to the YFP community, make sure to pick up your copy of “Know Yourself, Know Your Money,” available really anywhere, also available at RamseySolutions.com. We’ve just scratched the surface during this interview. I’m confident you’ll gain so much more from digging into the book and completing the activities at the end of each chapter. In the book, you’ll discover what’s at the root of your money tendencies, including how to overcome your biggest money fears, how your childhood impacts your money decisions today, and what really motivates your spending, saving, giving, and more. Rachel, thank you again for taking time to come on the show. Really appreciate it.

Rachel Cruze: No, thanks for having me. Really, really thankful. Thanks.

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