pharmacy entrepreneur

YFP 194: How Karine Used Her Pharmacy Skills to Create a Successful Healthy Dessert Business

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How Karine Used Her Pharmacy Skills to Create a Successful Healthy Dessert Business

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Karine Wong, pharmacist, educator, and entrepreneur, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about her journey starting My Guiltless Treats. Karine discusses how she uses her pharmacy skills in her entrepreneurial journey, how to determine whether or not a business idea is worth pursuing, why it is so important to have a clear purpose and vision, and why saying ‘yes’ is so crucial when starting and running your own business.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Karine Wong spent her entire pharmacy career in the hospital pharmacy. She worked as a staff pharmacist, director, and clinical coordinator. Over time, she became frustrated about the lack of compliance with her diabetic patients. After countless hours of counseling at the bedside, the patients would return in a few short months with the same problem; uncontrolled diabetes. In 2013, Karine and a colleague had an idea to make protein candies. The idea seemed intriguing; simple and yet revolutionary. The company could provide a viable, sustainable solution to the non-compliant diabetic patient. By 2018, Karine has led My Guiltless Treats on a successful journey to popularity, sustainability, and profitability. To date, My Guiltless Treats is the only company that specializes in healthy desserts.

Summary

Karine Wong, pharmacist, educator, and pharmacy entrepreneur, joins Tim Ulbrich to discuss her pharmacy career, how she’s used her pharmacy skills on her entrepreneurial journey, and how she’s built a successful business, My Guiltless Treats, by going above and beyond the usual standards.

Karine has also learned how to determine if a business idea is worth pursuing and outlines practical benchmarks to evaluate when starting a new venture. She explains that great ideas can turn into great businesses if they can solve a problem that you care about and are passionate about, solve a pain point, have a market (with or without competition), and help people on a large scale.

Additionally, Karine shares her personal experience with the power of being positive, how the act of saying ‘yes’ can have a huge impact on your business, and practical ways to say ‘yes’ in your own business practices. Business owners, aside from providing free product (if the business can afford it), can also provide knowledge and time in various forms to their customers, building relationships that may potentially turn into lifelong sales.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Karine, thank you so much for taking time to be on the show.

Karine Wong: Hi, Tim. How are you?

Tim Ulbrich: I am doing well, excited to have you on. We had a chance to meet virtually a few weeks ago and had an opportunity to learn a little bit about your pharmacy career as well as the work that you’re doing with My Guiltless Treats and said, “Hey, we need to get this in front of the YFP community,” as I know many folks may have an idea that they’re wondering about, whether it’s a business idea, a side hustle idea, and I think featuring other pharmacy entrepreneurs is really an opportunity for them to see examples of what others are doing out there. So let’s first start with your pharmacy education and career. Why did you go into pharmacy? Where did you go to pharmacy school? And what type of work have you done in pharmacy throughout your career?

Karine Wong: I went to pharmacy school right out of high school, straight into University of the Pacific in southern California and endured a 5-year program, the accelerated program to be a PharmD at the end of 5 years. By the end of the 5 years, I really loved the clinical field. I actually wanted to be a doctor at that point, but at that point my parents decided not to support me anymore. So I was stuck being a PharmD. That’s OK. At the time, pharmacy was — it’s a world that can be anything you want it to be. You can be a CVS pharmacist, a Kaiser, nuc pharmacy, ambulatory care. It was — the world’s your oyster. I chose to stay in the hospital field. I felt that was the best place for me to be surrounded by the greatest minds of Edison. And so I stayed in hospital pharmacy when I graduated in 1999. And I have worked up the totem pole. So I was a (inaudible) pharmacist, worked up to outpatient pharmacist, did some floating here and there, became a director of pharmacy at one point but stayed put as a coordinator, which is a fancy word for clinical manager. So I was in charge of all the PMT minutes, agenda items, formulary additions, deletions, and in these settings. I also got the precep student from West University for 8 years and I’ve also participated in rounds with the teaching staff of the hospital. So I’ve always been in academic settings in terms of the hospitals. I was always teaching nurses or students, interns or residents and pharmacy students. So that’s pretty much my journey. Always learning.

Tim Ulbrich: Always learning, which is a good connection to business. And we’re going to talk a little bit about how your pharmacy career has played a role in the work that you’re doing in running your own business. So My Guiltless Treats — and we’ll link to that in the show notes for folks so they can learn more, check out the website, learn about the products that you offer — give us the 20,000-foot view. What is My Guiltless Treats all about?

Karine Wong: My Guiltless Treats is not something I intended to start at all. If you had told me 20 years ago I would start a business, I’d laugh in your face. I’d be like, no, no, no, I’m going to live and die in my pharmacy office. That’s what I thought I would do. Kind of changed now, I think I got burn out in pharmacy. I was really good at what I was doing, and I was writing codes, I was helping the pharmacy staff with all the difficult cases we had at our hospital. When 2008 rolled around, I took some time off to give birth to my child and I came across this fitness director who wanted to increase my protein intake. But it did not taste good. And she complained about why does it taste awful? Now, as a pharmacist, I thought, that’s kind of funny. I don’t take protein myself, but don’t you think it’s odd that we can make steroid solution taste really great but we can’t make something as simple as protein taste better?

Tim Ulbrich: Right? Yeah.

Karine Wong: So I told her, I can make it for you. I’ll make you a protein candy. And that’s how My Guiltless Treats came to fruition. I did create a product that was a delicious treat. At the end of the 5 years of working with her with RMD and sales, we decided to split up. She went to pursue a different career path, but I stayed on board. The original treat that we had, they’re actually protein gummies, was not scalable. It wasn’t something that people wanted to buy. We had no sales to warrant the continuation. We had people who loved it, but it wasn’t like a lot to justify a $50,000 investment into buying a million gummies, OK? That’s a lot of gummies to sell. It’s almost like two pallets. And it wasn’t scalable, it wasn’t something that we could sell. So she took off, which is fine, but I stayed on with the company because I still believed it had so much potential for it. So I looked at Guiltless Treats as a vehicle to deliver treats or desserts to diabetics, to those who really need it. And this Aha! Moment came back to me when I was working at the hospital. I remember counseling at the bedside and doing diabetic teaching to our patients diagnosed with diabetes, and I would teach them how to use insulin and the syringes. One gentleman stuck in my mind because he was very noncompliant, his A1C was double digits. I had to tell him, “OK, senor, no more bread, no more rice,” and he said, “OK, I would love to do it. But senorita, I want my bread. I want my (inaudible) bread. I want that.” And I looked at him and go, “OK, I guess I’ll see you in 3-6 months,” you know? Right? What can I do? He told me he’s noncompliant. He’s not going to change. He gave me a dare. He said, “Unless you can tell me something that is good for me and delicious, I’ll eat that.” And I had no answer for him. That was the Aha! moment. That was the moment I realized, oh my gosh, he’s right. So I go downstairs, and I ask my dietician friends, my physician friends, “What do you tell patients what can they eat that’s good?” And you know what they all told me while they’re eating their Twinkies and their Ho-Hos, “You tell them to eat their kale.”

Tim Ulbrich: Oh gees.

Karine Wong: Quinoa’s good, brown rice is supposed to better. This is what they’re telling me. But they weren’t eating it. And I’m thinking to myself, OK, that’s — I can’t use that, OK? Because they don’t know how to make kale salad or quinoa rice. They don’t know how to do that. It’s not part of their culture. So I was up against the wall. So when my fitness instructor friend mentioned the protein gummies, I thought, that actually sounds interesting because I can take out the sugar and replace it with another macronutrient like protein. So even though the gummies didn’t come to fruition, there was a point to make the treats. There was a reason for it. I needed to make something for that gentleman. I needed to make a dessert, something that he can have that doesn’t taste medicinal, that doesn’t use artificial flavors or sweeteners, something that he can grab at the store, not have to make it, not have to thaw it or bake it but can eat it right out like a protein cup. So aha! Six months later, after intense RMD, I created or actually made a version of my own kind of pork bun, (inaudible) a type of dessert similar to flan or custard. It’s very soft in texture. I don’t use (inaudible) cream or eggs or gluten or milk. I just use coconut cream, which is better for you, doesn’t cause the same problems as animal fat. And I layer over real mango, pineapple, or guava. So it’s a tropical dessert. And then I fortify the dessert with protein from the protein. But it’s also filtrated, so there’s no lactose, there’s nothing that will make you bloated. I deliberately made my products allergen-free. I took the top seven allergens that we see in the States and took them away, so nuts, there’s no seafood, there’s no tree nuts, stuff like that. I avoid that. Coconut is not considered a same nut as a tree nut, so it’s OK to use that. And yeah. I’ve been successful with the panna cotta desserts, people love it, it’s a thing now. People know me as the kind of the panna cotta lady. I’m the only one that makes it. And I make it healthy. So it’s the only dessert that you can find that’s actually good for you. So you can eat it instead of your ice cream at nighttime, you can eat it instead of yogurt at breakfast or like my friends at the hospital, they eat it during their shift. So when they have a long shift, the protein sustains them for the entire 10-hour shift that they have. So it’s a great option for everybody. You don’t have to be diabetic or pre-diabetic to enjoy it. You could be anyone. It’s just a dessert that’s healthier. Other manufacturers can’t do that because they put lots of sugars in their products. They don’t really know what we know as pharmacists. And that’s why being a pharmacist really helps your product if you’re going for the food industry. Because you know so much.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. That makes sense. And one of my favorite stories, Karine, from our conversation several weeks ago was, you know — and get the story right if I have it wrong, but you had mentioned at the gift shop of the hospital, you know, this being distributed and sold and how quickly it would come and go and that you knew you were onto something in terms of folks that obviously appreciated the product, the quality of it, and certainly those that could benefit from it from a health perspective as well. And it has me thinking, you know, we’ll take a little bit of an aside here, but many folks may be listening that have an idea, right? And so you had an idea of something that could be done better. You mentioned the protein gummies, which ultimately didn’t come to its full fruition. So what ultimately does make a good idea? As you’re thinking of this not only with your own business here and other experiences you’ve had but also potentially advising and giving input to other folks that have business ideas, what makes a good idea? What’s the framework in which you think of what is this idea and does it actually have viability going forward?

Karine Wong: That’s a great question. And I’m going to say lots of time and energy because I could break it down for you in this way. I actually have a lot of students or mentees that I work with who have ideas, and ideas come in and out of your mind all day long. Doesn’t mean you act on every single idea. So what makes a good idea, an idea that you probably want to sit on. First, the idea that you have, whether it’s a service or a product, should be there to solve a problem. And the problem could just be just to you, but if you find that this problem bugs you — let’s suppose that it bugs you that every year, your smoke alarm will run out of batteries and always at 2 o’clock in the morning, right? Every night.

Tim Ulbrich: Amen.

Karine Wong: I don’t know how they do it. And that’s the night that you can’t sleep, that’s when you jolt out of bed with almost an MI because it’s like, beep, beep, and it won’t stop, especially if you have like 5 in your house and you don’t know which one it is, right? What if that’s a problem for you? If it’s a problem for you, it’s a problem for someone else and probably many others that have smoke alarms. No. 2, if you could develop a product like a battery or a monitoring system that tells you when your battery is low, like if you can find a way to make an app that bluetooths the battery life to your smoke alarm, that would be superb. And you don’t have to physically make the app, you just have to hire someone that can code it for you. You tell them what you want, and they make it for you. It’s pretty simple. But you have to have the idea, you have to do the research and find out is there a market for it. So if I know every house in the United States has to have smoke alarms, right? That’s a law.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Karine Wong: No. 2, so the market’s very big. No. 3, does anyone make that besides you? Like is there an option out there? Now if there is, it doesn’t mean don’t do it. Just know that if there’s no competition, you have a more difficult road because you have to pave the road for yourself. You have to do all your market research and find out how to get the pricing down, find the right coder, for example, and get the best pricing for that. But if you have competition, follow them and see how are they doing it? OK? I’ll give you an example. Protein gummies was my first skew. We had three competitors. That was back in 2010. Today, they’re all defunct. Why? Because no one wanted protein gummies. Interesting. They all went bankrupt. We didn’t go bankrupt, we just changed our name. Going into No. 3, you have to find out if there’s competition or not. OK? No. 4, if it’s a good idea, it’s an idea that will come back to you the next day.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Karine Wong: So an idea that’s OK goes away the next day. You don’t remember. You just like, eh, whatever. I don’t remember the idea. It just came and go. It didn’t stick around. But if the idea is awesome and you find there’s potential in it because of what you know, whether it’s a pharmacist or a handyman or living your house and hearing that every year, the smoke alarm chirping, then that idea will come back to you. And you’re like, you know what? I won’t let it go. I can’t let it go. Because it’s a really good idea. And that’s how you know. So those are four benchmarks. And just like when you sig a patient, check them off, right? Do you have a problem that you’re solving? Check. Can you make a service or a product that will solve it? Check. Competition, is there any? Check, yes there is. That’s fine. OK? That doesn’t stop you.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Karine Wong: It just means that, hey, there’s a market for it because so many people have tapped into it. Now if there’s too many competitors, you might want to like not do it because it’s too hard. Like I would never go into the beverage market now because it’s so supersaturated. I would not go into the frozen industry because you know the frozen aisle is very coveted shelf space because it’s frozen. So I can’t get in there if I had the best tasting item ever. I could not break into that. And No. 4, like I said, if the idea comes back to you and you won’t let it go, then you have a really good idea.

Tim Ulbrich: I love that, Karine. Very tangible advice. Checklists, we like checklists. We like thinking about things in sequential order. And I think your comment that resonates — several things in there — but you know, multiple ideas that may come to focus doesn’t mean we need to act on every one. What I actually do at home, my wife and I like to brainstorm various business ideas. And we write them down on a legal sheet, you know, 8.5×11 yellow piece of paper. It’s in my office. And then what I find is some of those we keep talking about, right? We come back two days later, four days later, six days later, eight days later, even some of those we may determine for other reasons in your four steps aren’t viable. But those that we find we can’t let them go, like that means you’re at least at the beginnings of something that obviously is important to you. The other thing I think about here, Karine — I’d love your input — is I think folks often struggle with is this an idea that I really care about solving this problem and I have a solution that I’m going to be really passionate about? And is it financially viable? Am I after the money? Am I after the purpose and solving this problem? Or both? And what advice would you have with folks, you know — here as I hear your story, obviously at the end of the day, you’ve got to run a business but also something that you saw could have a tremendous impact on patients. It was a problem that needed to be solved. And so the concern that folks might be chasing becoming rich or having a home run of a product and how important it is to be passionate about the problem that you’re trying to solve.

Karine Wong: The way I look at it is your company is a baby. If you’ve lost interest in your baby, the company, literally dies. So imagine yourself, like you’re in charge and you decide, you know what, I’m going to take a break and do something else. Guess what? The company that you built falls apart. It may take awhile, but it will fall apart because you are the glue that holds it together. So you’re the why. Why are you doing this has to be something that you will use every morning you wake up, every morning you clock in, you turn on your recording or you reach out to people for your interviews, that is your why, why are you doing it. And if you say, “money because I want to be a millionaire,” or “be featured on Ellen, the show,” you’re going to have issues, OK? Because the likelihood of that is almost as high as winning the lottery. It’s very rare. Just like people who want to be on TikTok and they want to make it big. That’s pretty rare. What’s your why? It should be because you’re solving a problem that is important to you, that bugs you. And you want to solve it. We as pharmacists I consider are problem solvers. Right? We fix people’s ailments with drugs and we tailor their regimens. And so the same thing happens with products or services. If I could fix your life to be better, even by a little bit, hey, that’s so neat. That is your why. I love that I know that my products help those that are enduring chemotherapy or those with the canker sores from the chemotherapy or has protein loss because of dialysis or they just can’t eat because they’re kekectic, be able to thrive. Hey, my stuff is better than Ensure+. My stuff is better than most medicinal foods. So that’s my joy. That’s my why. And if I stop my company, those customers are affected. And that’s why I don’t stop. And there’s more than one person. There’s a lot. In fact, in about a month, I’ll be celebrating my milestone — I had to tell you this, Tim — but I’ll officially have sold 25,000 units.

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, congratulations.

Karine Wong: That is not an easy feat. And I did it in about 18 months, so that’s a lot of panna cottas.

Tim Ulbrich: That is awesome.

Karine Wong: Yeah, I mean, I’m sure if I was a big company that packs and manufactures it, I’m sure it makes a lot. But a single person by myself using pharmacist-grade benchmarks, yeah, it’s not easy. It takes awhile to do because I’m very picky. When I make products, I go beyond, beyond the food safety measures. OK? Food safety measures are pretty low, OK? It’s like, don’t put stuff in there like debris. Yeah, I get that. But I don’t put piologens in there. I don’t put bacteria in there. My stuff is vacuum-sealed, sterile, no piologens. It lasts for six weeks without any bacteria count of significance. And I do this with technicians in laboratories, so it’s all certified. OK? So I go beyond the scope of a food manager because I’m a pharmacist. I don’t want to give people stuff that — it’s not a liability, it’s more like what makes you feel good? I don’t want my patients — or not my patients, consumers, to eat something healthy and that’s not dirty or have full of debris or particulates. That’s our nature as pharmacists, right? So going back to your question about your why, yes, your why, my why is because I want to help people be on the medicine. I want to help people at the marketplace, give them teaching, counseling. I do more patient counseling now that’s more viable, that’s more significant to them, than I would have at CVS. Because CVS is very fast-paced and you only have so much time. But at the marketplace, I’ve got time and they’re much more open to me. So when I give them advice or valuable tips, they love it. And they get to go home with that, and that’s going to help them from this point on. So I give them a lot of hope and insight into their management of their disease state, whether it’s diabetes or eczema or Crohn’s Disease. I’ve heard it all, so I am able to talk on that not as their doctor but as a pharmacist. And they trust me in that. And so it’s not about sales, but they end up buying it because they like who I am and what I represent. So the why for everybody should be that you want to help people or you want to solve a problem. Those are the best whys you can have in your life. But if you’re going to say money or stardom or fame, you can still do it. I won’t stop you. But your journey every morning will be so much harder because it’s tough. And so if you’re hoping to be on Ellen’s show and every morning you wake up and you make 1,000 panna cottas, you might go, God, is it really worth it? You’re going to be tired. You’re going to be kind of burnt out real fast. And that’s why those are really not good reasons to start a business. I’ll give you an example, Tim. I actually had an investor that offered me lots of money to make CBD gummies. This is right when the legislature passed the state law that legalizes like CBD and marijuana for recreational use. And he asked me to make it. He said, “You’ll make millions of dollars.” And I believed him. I would make a million dollars. And I said no, not because I couldn’t do it, not because I didn’t want the money, because it’s not my jam. It’s not my why. I could not make CBD gummies because it’s not like I don’t think it works. I think it works great, I don’t think it matters how much money you throw at me, I wouldn’t do it. It just doesn’t make me happy. It doesn’t solve anyone’s problem — at least, it does solve a problem, but it’s not a problem that I want to solve. Does that make sense to you? It is a problem. But it’s not my jam, it’s not my passion to solve that problem or to help those patients. It could be yours, maybe someone else’s, so that’s what I did. I deferred.

Tim Ulbrich: So important. And I can’t echo enough of what you just said there. Even thinking of what we’ve been working on at YFP, hearing your story here, hearing other stories of pharmacist entrepreneurs that I’ve talked with, you know, having that motivation and a why of something that you care about, a problem that you care about, that you want to solve is so critically important to invest in the time and energy that’s going to have an impact. Karine, I want to talk for a moment about the gap between having an idea and from there, getting to a minimum viable product and perhaps from there, being able to actually grow and scale something. Big separation, big gap between having an idea and actually being able to grow that idea perhaps into its full potential. And I think pharmacists may hear your story or hear other entrepreneurial stories and hear from folks that have been successful, however you may define success. And for you, selling 25,000 units in 18 months, that’s overwhelming. You know what, I have this idea and I hear Karine talking about RND, about growing, scaling, manufacturing, hiring a team, wow. Maybe I should just stop pursuing my idea right now because that feels overwhelming. What advice would you have for folks that are listening that say, “You know what, I have this idea, and I just don’t know where to go from here.”

Karine Wong: The fear of pursuing an idea is very common. It’s not unusual to hear an idea or come up with one and go, you know what, it’s a good one, but nah. It’s not going to work. And to have self doubt because you’re afraid. And I think as pharmacists, we’re more risk-averse. So we don’t want to take chances on something that we don’t know much about. That’s understandable. There’s a few things that I do in my career and my company that help minimize that risk. First, when you hear an idea, obviously we don’t put every single penny we have towards every idea. But look at the idea that you’re thinking about. A good idea is the idea that will solve a problem that is going to affect many consumers, not just you, not just your family, but other pharmacists or other people in your industry or your role as a mother or father, some of the frustrations you see as maybe a student. And that is a problem that if you have had it, and other people have had it, then that’s a good market. That’s why. You check that box, that’s a pretty good market, a pretty good idea. Second, you have to create a solution. An idea basically tells you that we need something to help fix that problem. Your job is to find a solution, and whether it’s a product like my product, a dessert, a snack, a service, or even a device that you create, then that is what you need to come up with. And that’s probably what you’re talking about when it comes to the minimum viable product. It is a product or service that will bring in people to buy your product or service in exchange for money to solve that problem. And that is what investors look for is how good or awesome is your end EP. Many pharmacists always tell me, oh, I’m not creative or I don’t know how to make dessert or I’m not a baker, I’m not an engineer. Neither am I. But you are resourceful. You’re a pharmacist. So you can easily hire a coder to perhaps make a software app for an iPhone that would track down smoke alarms in your house and find out when that battery is going to run out. You can hire engineers to create a device for you. My whole point is that designing, creating a product doesn’t have to be a solo mission. In my case, it’s a solo mission because oh heck, we’re always into compounding in laboratories and we’re always making something. And I’m a mom, so I’m always baking new recipes. It’s a small experimentation. So you don’t have to be a chef or a professional engineer or a writer or anything like that to pursue a product or device or something that solves a problem. So that’s No. 2 is find a solution, create it. No. 3, now you’ve got to test it. You’ve got to find out if your market that you’ve identified, like the other moms in your area, the pharmacists in your industry, like what you’re selling. And I don’t mean people like your mom or your dad or your brother or sister or husband. They don’t really count. Not to say their opinions don’t matter, but they’re really nice and they love us. So they’ll say whatever makes us happy. You want to know if your friend of a friend of a friend is going to buy your product or MVP. So this is a person that doesn’t know you, has no connection with you, and is more likely to give you an honest opinion. If they’re willing to give you money in exchange for that service or product you’re providing for a problem that you both share, you have an awesome idea that is worth pursuing. With that being said, if you get like a thousand ideas in a given month, maybe one or two might be feasible or fit all of those check boxes. To me, the ones that really require more attention are the ones that stick around. I have a lot of ideas, and I don’t always move on every single idea. But if an idea comes back to me in two or three consecutive days or weeks, like I just can’t let it go, I dream about it, I obsess about it, I think about it when I’m running, now that’s an idea worth pursuing because your subconscious knows it’s a good idea, Karine, don’t let it go. It’s something worth pursuing. That’s why if you look at my bio, I do more than just My Guiltless Treats. I’ve actually written a book, I have created an app for pharmacy students to help prepare for the board exam and medical students to help with their SEP boards. So I’m not just limited to the role of pharmacy. I’m not limited to the food industry. If I feel there’s a problem, in which I did, I hire coders, I learn how to write, I hire editors, I had a publishing team that all helped me get to my purpose.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And one of the questions, Karine, that I’m thinking of as you’re sharing your story is when I hear 25,000 units in 18 months, obviously you are solving a problem that people are interested in that are raising their hand to purchase, but you haven’t scaled nationally into large retailers, despite the opportunity being there to do so. And that has been an intentional move, as I understand it. So my question here is how and why did you arrive to the decision that you wanted to control your growth?

Karine Wong: There are two reasons why I chose to control my growth. In the food industry world, there’s a saying, you go hard in your backyard. That means that all your marketing, all your efforts to brand, to market, should be in your local region. It doesn’t make sense for me to let’s say get in Costco or Whole Foods nationally when I’m here in California. Nobody in Chicago or East Coast knows who Karine Wong or who the Guiltless Girl is or what panna cotta is that’s made of coconut cream. They don’t know. So it’s going to be a very hard sell. And now with COVID, it’s even harder because I can’t hire marketers to go out there to demonstrate the product. That’s the first reason is to always market your product in your area. If you’re able to do a service remotely, that’s a little different. But the point is that people are more likely to buy your product, buy my product when they know you, heard about you, seen the car, seen your Instagram posts and are more familiar. So in California, in Orange County, I am very popular as the Guiltless Girl. Selling product is very easy, I sell in a few stores, and they sell through it, which means that nothing is left over. They always run out. That’s a positive sign. I’d rather have those benchmarks than to be in let’s say 200 Whole Foods stores and sell 10% of what I stocked. There’s no glory in that. There’s no fame or money to be made when you’re only selling a little bit at those stores. And eventually, those stores will discontinue you because you could not show velocity in their stores. So that’s the first reason why you want to go hard in your backyard. And the second reason is that there has to be a balance. If all I did was My Guiltless Treats and nothing else, then yes, I would go national. I would go and find investors and get seed funding to go national. I would even go on Shark Tank because that’s all I got going on and my role is to go national. And I would actually hire a larger team and brokers to get those milestones. But I am not just the CEO of this company. I’m also a professor. I teach remotely for PharmD students for PGI West University and Yogi (?). So I’m busy with that, and I do love teaching pharmacy students. I’m also a pharmacist. I’m doing remote pharmacy from my home, and I’m a pharmacogenomics counselor. So there’s a lot going on my plate. So I’ve got to be home, and this is a good balance because I can spend maybe three days a week doing Guiltless work, including weekends, and the other days are spent doing teaching, being a parent, working out, kind of having time for myself. And the balance is fantastic because I’m very happy and I feel successful because I do make money. I have enough money to pay for my staff. I have enough money to hire people to design logos for me, I can basically sustain — the company is sustainable on its own. So that’s a sign of success. And I don’t need to make a million dollars from this. I just need to make it run on its own, which it is. And I need to have time for myself, my kids, my family, and teach. If I lost all that, there is no glory. There is no fame. So controlling growth is about finding a balance where you have time for yourself and your family and your other hustles and passions but also time for yourself and the company. It’s a balance, really. And you know, I’m OK making what I’m making right now. I am making profit. But yeah, I’m not a millionaire. And that’s OK. I’m very happy with what I’m doing. You’ve got to be OK with all those things. Other entrepreneurs, for them, it’s all about, I want to get in Costco, I want to get in Whole Foods, I want to be in all these Krogers and Vons. OK? That’s your jam. It’s not my jam. Just because they’re saying it and they want it and their business coach is saying it doesn’t mean it’s for you. So you have to look at yourself and your life and see is that for me?

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great wisdom, Karine. I would encourage folks, you know, to spend some time getting clear on your personal goals and why. In addition to what we’re talking about here today, which is the business goals and why, as Karine shared her personal goals, the balance obviously informed her business goals and the direction that she is taking with the business. And Karine, I’m glad to hear what you said about controlled growth. I think we have glorified the grind and hustle and working hard at all costs. Perhaps it’s the Shark Tank effect, you know, I’m not sure. But I think it’s a good reminder of us each individually thinking about what success may look like. So Karine, tell us about a lesson that you shared with me before we hit record, which was the power of saying yes. Tell us about for you and your journey, saying yes to folks, why this was so important, even recently, in terms of the value and the power of saying yes as a business owner.

Karine Wong: Being positive and affirmative is an attractant to other consumers. Consumers, when they buy a product or service, they’re not just buying a product or service, they’re buying from you. They’re buying you. They love you. They want to be in your life, they want to be engaged with you. If you’re negative or cheap or frugal or penny-pinching, they’re probably not going to come back to you. One of the things I adopt is generosity is key. If I can do it, I will, whether it’s emotional support, physical support, knowledge, expert advice, I’ll do it. I have no problem at all. I consider ourselves a drug expert. So if someone asks me a question randomly in the aisles of Target, I’ll be happy to help them. I have no qualms about holding back information because oh, I don’t work here or I’m on break or whatever. If you need help, let me help you. It’s better that I help you than for you to find the answer yourself on Wikipedia, which is not something I recommend. So when you say yes, the rule is this: Say yes to people if you can do it. For example, when you have a product or service and especially in the initial phases of the company, a lot of the times will be giving away product for free. And that may sound counterintuitive because you’re trying to make money. But the first couple years, you’re not going to make money. And your goal is to let people try your product, even if it means giving it away for free. Most people will not try a product and pay for it just to test the waters. It’s better for you to give it away for free, gift it, donate it, mark it as a tax writeoff on your income tax returns. And that allows people to try your product and go, you know what? She’s quite generous or he’s quite generous. They let me try it for free, there’s no contingency offers, there’s no like alternative motives. They’re going to feel warm and fuzzy with you. And they’re going to love the product because hey, you know, this is a good product. And I like it. And yeah, I would come back and ask for more and I would probably pay for it. So offering the first dose or first service or first product for free actually is a really awesome marketing idea if you could afford it. And usually, you can because you have the capital for that. If you can’t afford it, don’t do it. The other things you can offer for free would be your knowledge. If you know something, if you are very well read up on gluten diet, gluten-free foods or celiac disease or eczema and they’re going to shift to dairy, definitely talk about it. A lot of consumers will come up to me, once they discover who I am, they’ll open up their hearts and tell me their medical problems. So I know a lot about their eczema, rosacea, diabetes and other problems. And I’m happy to help them. And they feel pretty much open because I’m not timing them, I’m not charging them, I’m not going to ask for their medical insurance. And it’s a great exchange of information. So they value my input, and they usually walk away with a panna cotta, they usually walk away with something that I provide because they like who I am. So there’s the generosity of knowledge. The other thing you can offer is your time. You didn’t know this, but when the COVID hit, a lot of my colleagues were being fired for obvious reasons. So I offered free CV reviews because I have experience hiring pharmacists and technicians. I said, “Submit your resume to me and we’ll help brush it up.” And it was great because people were sending me — I actually opened up publicly to everyone in my community, my neighborhood, and all I could reach. And I got so much response, and people even said, “I liked it because I don’t know who you are, Karine, but I love it that you’re doing it,” so they were referring me, shared my post, and I didn’t charge them for it. I just wanted to look at their CVs, make recommendations, and I send it back to them. So I do it now for pharmacy students and those applying for residencies. Just my opinion, just make it nicer, cleaner. And usually I could find one or two errors, and they’re very appreciative. ‘Oh my gosh, I forgot to add this,’ or ‘Oh my gosh, I didn’t know I had to add a header or footer.’ Those are kind of core things you look at as a director because we get so many resumes for one position in a hospital pharmacy. So it helps to have page numbers and footnotes and lists of references instead of me asking for it. So those are little things that I want people to see what I see. That’s what I offer is my knowledge, time, free product if I can do it, free service. At the end of the day, it makes the consumer, the other person, just like you more, like your company more and guess what? All those people I helped the first few years of my career, of my business, have come back as repeat customers. So I didn’t charge them the first time, but guess what? They’re total lifetime revenue for one customer is well over $100. So is it worth it? Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: Great advice. And the resume service is a good example of serving others, whether it’s product, whether it’s time, you know, I think offering and bringing something valuable and serving others without necessarily a return in mind but just providing that value in the moment, we know reaps great benefits. So I think you articulated the value of saying yes well. I try to follow that advice from mentors I’ve received before. And it’s not about being reckless. I mean, as you mentioned, being the face of the brand, folks are looking for that energy, they’re looking for that enthusiasm, they’re looking for that we’ll figure it out type of mentality as you go along and build some of those relationships. Karine, I really appreciate the time that you’ve taken, the wisdom that you’ve shared. What is the best way for our audience to connect with you to learn more about your journey as well as to follow the work that you’re doing with My Guiltless Treats?

Karine Wong: Very simple, just go to MyGuiltlessTreats.com. On the very bottom of the home page is “Send a Message.” That goes straight to me. All of my emails and phone numbers and even an Instagram/Facebook, you can go onto My Guiltless Treats, it goes straight to me. I don’t believe in hiring a third party marketing agency for that because I want to engage my customers. So if you want to engage with me, just go straight on board to the website, email me, run by your ideas with me or any questions you have about possibly starting a company or a product, and we’ll talk about the feasibility of it. It’s better to rule it out or rule it in as early as possible before you need to put money towards the product or whatever.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. We’ll link to the website in the show notes. We’ll link to some of the social media connection opportunities as well. And again, appreciate you taking the time, sharing your journey and your willingness to also support and encourage other pharmacy entrepreneurs that are out there. So Karine, thank you very much.

Karine Wong: You’re welcome. It was a pleasure, Tim. If you decide to come up with that smoke alarm app, you owe me 10% of the royalties.

Tim Ulbrich: You’ve got it. It’s a promise. Thank you.

Karine Wong: Thanks.

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YFP 180: How Allyson Used Her Pharmacy Skills to Build a Natural Skincare Company

Posted on by yfpadmin

How Allyson Used Her Pharmacy Skills to Build a Natural Skincare Company

Allyson Brennan, founder and owner of Emogene & Co., a natural skincare company, joins Tim Ulbrich on the show. Allyson talks about her background in pharmacy, why and how she started Emogene & Co., how she has had success in such a short period of time, and what lies ahead as she prepares for growth in 2021 and beyond.

About Today’s Guest

Allyson Brennan is a pharmacist with 13 years’ experience specializing in Neurology and is now a hospital Clinical Pharmacy Manager in Nashville, TN. She received a B.S. in Psychology minor in chemistry/biology as an undergraduate from Millsaps College and then went on to receive her B.S in Pharmaceutical Sciences and her PharmD. from The University of Mississippi.

This year, Allyson founded and created her own natural skincare company called Emogene & Co. focusing on effective natural skincare and the science behind purposeful ingredients. She created this company after noticing the skincare industry producing products full of toxic and ineffective filler ingredients. As a child, she was inspired by her grandmother, Emogene, who had a remedy for every skin issue or ailment. Throughout her professional career as a pharmacist, she noticed how she was drawn to medicinal chemistry and how specific molecules affected organs in the body. After becoming a mother, she began to focus on what molecules are available straight from the Earth to provide nutrition for our largest organ, our skin.

In less than a year, Allyson has grown her company organically, filled over 5000 individual orders and is also available in 11 locations including dermatology clinics and medical spas, all while continuing to work full-time in Pharmacy Administration during the day.

Summary

Allyson Brennan, a clinical pharmacy manager, started using a vitamin C serum on her skin after having her daughter and looked at the ingredients listed in the product. She quickly went down the rabbit hole of researching natural versus synthetic ingredients and active versus inactive ingredients in skincare products. Allyson realized that because of her clinical pharmacy and compounding skills she was able to create a vitamin C serum using natural ingredients. She soon discovered that she had tapped into a passion that she never knew was there. Friends started asking what she was using on her skin and Allyson began making the serum for them.

In January 2020, Allyson created an LLC called Emogene & Co., a company focusing on effective natural skincare and the science behind purposeful ingredients. Nine months later (November 2020), Emogene & Co. carries 21 products, has sold over 5,000 individual orders, has an online shop and is sold in 11 locations, including 3 medical spas and a dermatology clinic. Emogene & Co. is made in small batches mostly by Allyson, however she has brought on two full-time employees to help with production and labeling. Allyson still works full-time as a clinical pharmacy manager and focuses on the business in the evening to the early morning.

Allyson believes that Emogene & Co. has an advantage over other skincare products because of her pharmacy background. She explains that she stands by natural products and ingredients and offers education to people about how effective her products are. On this episode Allyson also talks about becoming an entrepreneur, what the next year of the business will look like, and how she balances running Emogene & Co. with a family and a full-time pharmacy job.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Allyson, welcome to the show.

Allyson Brennan: Hey, Tim, how are you? Thank you so much for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Really excited to have you, been looking forward to this interview ever since you and I had met actually through Adam Martin, The Fit Pharmacist, and had a chance to learn more about the work that you’re doing at Emogene & Co. And really excited to share that story as well as some of your pharmacy background and to expose our listeners to I think what has been a very unique career path and obviously some success you’ve had with the business and would like to get an inside look into that. And so let’s start with your pharmacy career. Tell us about your background in clinical practice and then administration and management since you graduated with your PharmD from the University of Mississippi.

Allyson Brennan: Sure. So my background actually started before I even went to pharmacy school. I originally thought I wanted to go to vet school. I am an avid horse rider. I was a competitive horsewoman growing up. And so I wanted to start and go to vet school. And ultimately, fast forwarding through all of those decision-making pieces of my life, I shadowed a veterinarian. I wanted to be an equine leg surgeon, so that would entail about 16 years of post-undergrad study, a lot of time, a lot of decisions that go into pushing you into a different path because when times are tough, you know, people might take care of themselves before they take care of their animal ultimately. So I decided against vet school with the veterinarian that I shadowed, she just gave me so much amazing advice. And as I started to look into what I wanted to go into, I knew that a passion for me is really breaking things down — I wouldn’t say at that point to molecular structure but very much like how I build this but from a very kind of unpiecing things, if that makes sense.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Allyson Brennan: So I love chemistry. I’m a total chemistry nerd. So I had heard about pharmacy, right? And so I’ve been out for 13 years. Back then, pharmacy was a very different ball game. And I heard that through kind of talking to people that knew about pharmacists, what really it entailed, and I was able to balance a family life with a career. And so I went for it and was accepted to University of Mississippi pharmacy school after I completed a undergrad BS degree in psychology with a biology and chemistry minor. And went into pharmacy school at University of Mississippi or Ole Miss, you end up with your PharmD, your doctorate, as well as another BS degree. So I was ready to go. Once I got out of pharmacy school, I was looking into residencies because I knew I ultimately wanted to be in clinical practice in a hospital setting. I applied to some residency programs in Nashville, Tennessee, because I had done some undergrad rotations there but ended up getting an offer from a wonderful hospital, Huntsville Hospital, in Huntsville, Alabama, a very large — I believe at that point they were 881 beds. And it was a clinical position without needing the residency, and it was everything I was looking for. So I interviewed, I was accepted, and the next year, they started to require residencies for this because it is so clinically based. And so for me, my career started with no residency in a facility, a large facility, and I started with an ortho and neuro kind of concentration. So I really built that niche of pharmacy in hospital practice for about three years there. And then I ended up moving to Nashville and practiced specifically neuro, neuro-endovascular, under surgery and just neuro intensive patients for close to nine years at Centennial Medical Center in downtown Nashville. From there, I really built a lot of relationships with the providers and physicians that entailed in that specialty. So the neurosurgeons, the neuro-intensivists, the neurologists. And once I built those relationships, they offered me a just heap of opportunities to build my clinical knowledge as well as build into things that were the building blocks for me to move into administration. So order set development, process improvement, committee-sitting, PNT, presentations, just a wonderful group of physicians and after about eight years, I was loving clinical practice, but I knew that I was ready to kind of push on. And Centennial, where I was, is part of the HCA, Hospital Corporation of America, group. It’s a large privately owned corporation that owns hospitals. So there’s several sister facilities in Nashville, in the Nashville area. And there was a clinical manager position at a smaller sister facility about 11-12 miles from downtown Nashville. And I knew the director. He actually was a resident under me that I trained him at Centennial. He is a wonderful guy, and he had called me and said, “I really think that you’re ready for this position. I would love to work with you.” And I ultimately went ahead and interviewed, uncertain that it would be a good fit because it was so much smaller. And when I went, I loved the staff, I felt very much at home there. It was what I was looking for because I had become a mother at that point, so it was very much a community feel. And working with that director was a goal of mine because he was a wonderful leader. And so now I’ve had my two-year anniversary as the pharmacy clinical manager at a facility. So I manage about 20 pharmacists and elevate the clinical program there to really help them succeed with their interdisciplinary rounds and their clinical responsibilities within the facility for patient care.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And I appreciate you chronicling the journey. We’re going to come back here in a little bit as we dive into the work that you’re doing with Emogene & Co. as how that pharmacy management experience and how your pharmacy experience at large has helped you as you’ve been working to get that company off the ground and now continue to grow that company. Let’s start with kind of the basics around Emogene & Co. What is it? Why is it important? And ultimately, what problem is it solving? Because I really believe every business is ultimately trying to solve a problem. So tell us more about the backstory of Emogene.

Allyson Brennan: Absolutely. So for me personally, I was just chugging right along being a pharmacist and about two years ago, I was maybe 37.5-38 years old, and I decided I wanted to start to focus to take a little better care of my skin. I had taken care of my skin all my life, but you’re getting older and I was like, what can I do that I’m not doing that is good for my skin. And the interesting thing about this is that this journey is really a full circle of the creativity that I feel like I lost as a kid and really started focusing more on this logistical math and science, black and white kind of thinking. And I’m really loving this journey because I am at this place in my life where I’m opening up kind of the Pandora’s Box of creativity but in a very different way than I ultimately thought I would. So it started for me, honestly, Tim, with a Vitamin C serum. Vitamin C serums, for those that don’t know, is kind of your ultimate go-to that every female and male should have for antioxidant protection against environmental stressors and to prevent further aging. It’s natural. There can be synthetic versions of it, but it’s kind of your go-to for just preventing your aging, starting in your 20s. So I spent about $150 on a Vitamin C serum. And I turned it on the back and looked at the label and was like, what am I paying for? Just the chemistry nerd came out, and I usually don’t do that, which is crazy. And so I turned it on the back, and being a pharmacist with the chemistry and science background that we all have, I was like, well, I don’t see ascorbic acid. Where is it?

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Allyson Brennan: I did notice an ingredient that looked like some sort of derivative of that. So I went to Google. And I Googled this specific ingredient and found out, you know, that it’s a synthetic ester version. So then before I knew it, I had dropped down into a very deep rabbit hole of synthetic versus pure of all ingredients and natural versus synthetic, active versus inactive, and really started to pull apart the skincare game, if you will. I started then. It grew arms. I started into essential fatty acid concentrations and what that looks like for your skin, yadda, yadda. And so before I knew it, I had tapped into a passion I never knew I had. When I looked at this Vitamin C serum, I was like, I can make that. Like I can make that. And I’m not a real DIYer. So I actually made some and didn’t tell anybody and started to apply it to my face. And I would say about two weeks later, I had friends that were asking me, what are you doing to your skin? Like something looks different. So I told them, I’m making a bootleg Vitamin C serum.

Tim Ulbrich: Good old compounding labs back, right, from pharmacy school.

Allyson Brennan: Yes. I tell you, I tapped into all this knowledge that you never think comes back. So I started to really appreciate that they asked me to make some for them. I was not charging anybody, it was just more of you know, friends sharing with friends. And then ultimately, in about November of 2019, I was like, maybe I should try something on the side. Maybe I should try to do this. Now, for understanding a little background on me, I am a very driven person. I’m someone who puts their head down and thinks well, I’ll do a little side project. If I’m going to throw my time into something, I’ve put blinders on, and I go. I’m all in. And if you’re familiar at all with the Enneagram or if anyone on that on this podcast that listens is, I am a Type 3.

Tim Ulbrich: I’m with you there.

Allyson Brennan: OK. I’m a 3w2, 3 wing 2. And I am the poster child for 3, The Achiever. And so I really think that learning the Enneagram helped me understand what drove me to this place. So I’ve never been an entrepreneur, I never, ever, ever, not even for a second, thought about owning my own business, my own pharmacy, let alone a skincare company. So I just went for it. So in January, I went ahead and created the company through an LLC. The name, Emogene & Co. speaks to, it pays homage to my grandmother Emogene. And I am named after her Allyson Gene, and my daughter is Parker Emogene. And that’s where the Co. comes in. But my grandmother was someone who could make something from nothing and had the most amazing skin. And that generation was very much a make-it-work type and create anything. And for me, I love science, I love chemistry, I love — as a pharmacist, we all know that there’s a time and a place for medication and chemicals. But I wanted to really focus on natural ingredients because I think that in the skincare industry — and I’m a baby in this — I think that the skincare industry can be extremely misleading to consumers. And the reason why is that there’s a lot of terms and titles that are thrown around without the knowledge behind that. I think that there is a time and a place, like I said, for chemicals. But if you can have things that come from the Earth naturally that are extremely effective, I want to focus on that. And that all came into play when I became a mother. What I started with a Vitamin C serum. And I started with a couple of other items that I actually made, a stretch mark prevention cream when I was pregnant, and I did a lot of tweaks to it and offered that. And then I offered a body scrub that is amazing for increasing the circulation in the blood to the skin, which creates a different kind of solution for your skin. I’ve been making that for three years just for myself. I offered that. And then I really focused on facial oils and essential fatty acid nutrition for your skin. So here I am, almost a year later, and I offer 21 products. And I’m offered in 11 locations as wholesale clients, so they’re my stockist list. And that includes three MedSpas and a dermatology clinic, which was kind of my moment for really taking this to a level where being taken seriously in a dermatology field, in a medical field, that it’s a natural product. I have done a little bit over 5,000 individual orders in this time. And I am still a full-time pharmacist and mom and wife. There’s not a lot of sleep in my life right now, but I am so driven by the passion for this, and it ultimately all comes down to I want to offer the ability for people to No. 1, age gracefully, No. 2, to improve the quality and the nutrition to their skin because we all take so much advantage of our skin. It’s the largest organ that we have. And I want it to be an accessible option for people. I don’t think skincare should be a luxury. I don’t think that people should not be able to afford to take care of an organ for themselves. And so my price points are at a place where I want people to be able to access that but feel good about the science that kind of marries the natural skincare for them. So it really boils down to a lot of relationship-building with customers. Anything starts out as a family-and-friend trying your items. And then once they are like, wow, OK, you really have something, they spread by word of mouth. And then word of mouth starts to go to the right people that are the really big word-of-mouthers, you know?

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Allyson Brennan: And then ultimately, you start to have stores that want to carry you. And it’s based off of the fact that it is skincare, which is a very saturated market, but it is natural rather than stating it’s natural, it is natural. But I get to really flex that pharmacist science arm with it, so that is the solution I wanted to offer. Like I said, it’s a saturated market in the skincare industry. I’m learning that also it is an absolutely overpriced industry. But it really comes down to do you believe and trust what someone is selling you? And I, being a psychology background, I want to develop that trust relationship for people to know that I ultimately have their best interest at heart for what is best for their skin. So that’s the solution I wanted to offer. And I hope I do that and I continue to do that. And I don’t want to sacrifice the integrity of the ingredients or the integrity of that brand.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that really resonates, Allyson, when you and I had talked several weeks ago, that really resonated with me is wanting to keep the integrity of the brand, wanting to focus on the natural and pure ingredients, wanting to bring this at a price point that was more affordable. And when I think of the timeline — and I know you mentioned and you honored it, but I don’t want our listeners to gloss over it — one year ago, November 2019, you know, if I heard you correctly, kind of idea was coming to be, that was starting to form, but it wasn’t until the beginning of 2020 that you actually formed the company. And here we are, just over 10 months into this journey, you mentioned 21 products, 11 locations, obviously an active e-commerce online, over 5,000 units sold, and so of course there’s a trajectory here. And my natural next question, which I’m guessing our listeners are thinking as well, is like, break down the operations. Like how are you doing this? You mentioned starting with the compounding. So are you up late at night and compounding? Do you have a team? Do you have a distribution facility? Like this happened so quickly, so tell us how you’ve been able to scale up to be able to fulfill those orders while also being an N of 1 when you started.

Allyson Brennan: An N of 1. I’m still an N of 1, but I do have maybe .25s on the side, and I’m so grateful for those. So for me, my first sale was — I formed the LLC and all of the background information you do to form a business in January — and my first sale was January 26. It started, you know, social media, no website, I had Square, which the majority of people are familiar with. And so it was literal orders coming through email, text, Facebook messaging or Instagram messaging.

Tim Ulbrich: Instagram, yeah.

Allyson Brennan: Yeah. And then invoicing them to their email. And then they would pay. So it started out really just grassroots. I don’t know how much more grassroots you could be. As far as the compounding goes, let’s say for instance, let’s speak of this Vitamin C serum. OK, there’s 21 products now, but let’s just speak to this. So I was starting only making batches of eight. Eight at a time. That was it. And I would say now, I’m making those in batches of 120. So in this amount of time, I’ve learned that scale because I was still white-knuckling it, you know, really holding those reins of wanting to know that I’m putting out — I mean, everything is made by me, filled by me, packaged by me, labeled by me, heat-sealed by me, sold by me. And that’s a lot process once you reach a certain point in time. So I was really only just, if you will, dog paddling through life. I was making what I needed to fill those orders and then trying to still be a mom and a wife and be a pharmacist manager. So I think at some point, I really had to stop holding onto that control and start to hire the right team around me. But I have a very specific thing I look for in that team. So before I got to that point, it really looked like let’s say — so I create a sterile field at my home in my kitchen. I am still working from my home. This was maybe one closet upstairs in my house that had, you know, the packaging, the raw ingredients, whatever. And then I would fill the orders literally fresh made, on the spot, and I would fill those orders. Let’s say three months into that, I was still making the same amount of batches of things, but I was maybe expanding to another closet, you know? So nine months in, I am in six closets, the entire garage, my dining room is my office per se where I fill orders. I have a shipping station in that room, and I have my entire dining room is not even used anymore other than Emogene & Co. I have complete shelving in the entire room. But I still create this sterile field in the kitchen, and so now the batches are larger, I finally — you know, I’ve had a lot, I’m so grateful for it. I’ve had a lot of females that love my products, offer to help. “I love what you’re doing, I’m so passionate about it, I see that you’re passionate about it, let me help you.”

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Allyson Brennan: And I’m grateful for that. But when you have something like this, you don’t want people to do it just because they like the products. You want someone who has the same drive and the same passion to grow.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right. Yep.

Allyson Brennan: And those are very specific qualities that I look for. So for me personally, I have two women that are full-time employees that are — one is a pharmacy tech who’s a chemotherapy technician I’ve worked with for 10 years. And the other is a pharmacist who is on staff, and I’m her manager at work. She’s a workforce. These are people that don’t know how to stop. But it’s not a work that they grovel in. They love it, they’re passionate about it, they’re positive, their attention to detail and specifics is second to none, and that was ultimately why I chose to say yes to them. What they’re helping me with now is — the chemotherapy technician has six products that she now compounds herself. And these do not — the products that I offer, there are some that are just mixed dry ingredients, there are some that are mixed liquid ingredients, and then there are others that are very complicated where they’re a lot more chemistry lab type with an oil phase, water, phase, heat phase, cool phase. She mixes just the solid and the liquid ingredients. So she has six products that she makes. And she forms a sterile field in her home and does those, and she heat seals and labels her own. And then she passes them to me. The other employee, she is a mother of two and a full-time pharmacist, and so what she does for me is she does the labeling, which is crazy that she is — it’s crazy how helpful it is.

Tim Ulbrich: Oh sure, yeah.

Allyson Brennan: Yeah, so she literally does the labeling as well as now we have a holiday product with a local company that’s a big collaboration and it’s a dry ingredient body scrub. And she — I taught her that recipe and checked her off on a competency like I would a pharmacist. And she mixes that now. And we pass off bulk everything in the parking lots before we go into our day jobs. And it used to look like maybe staying up until 10-11, and now every single night, I’m up until 2 o’clock in the morning, and I’m up at 6-6:30, depending on what time I have to be at the hospital. So I look very tired. But I am so passionate about it, and so I very much have fallen into a routine of what pieces of the night are where I start certain products.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Allyson Brennan: Yeah. So it’s a lot of compounding at the very beginning after putting my daughter to bed. It’s compounding if I’m low — I have PAR sheets. And we have margins, and we have all of the background that you need for those pieces. There’s ordering that happens every Friday, and I do all of the ordering. But I focus on their PAR sheets filled out, and they pass those to me with their time sheets. So yeah, I start with making the products while I’m still kind of fresh. And then once maybe 11 or 12 rolls around, I’m usually finished that compounding and I have put up, boxed them up for the pharmacist to pass off the next day that she’ll do the labeling. And then I start the admin of anything that’s needed, and I fill orders until usually about 2, and then I go to bed. And then I do it all over the next day.

Tim Ulbrich: Start over.

Allyson Brennan: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: And I love that, Allyson, because I think we all know the hustle that needs to be there. And obviously as you continue to build, you’re going to have an opportunity to bring more folks in and efficiencies will happen over time and obviously as you continue to scale. But when you’re getting something off the ground like this, like anybody listening that wants to get any company or initiative, side hustle, whatever you want to call it — this obviously is much bigger than that — you’ve got to hustle, you’ve got to work. And I think when you’re that passionate about the mission or the why of what you’re doing, I can speak from firsthand experience, I suspect you may feel the same way that as exhausting as it can be, it doesn’t necessarily feel like the type of work that somebody hearing it may think that it feels like because the mission is so clear on why you’re trying to do what you’re trying to do. And although you described it, Allyson, as being pretty homegrown and still distribution happening out of your home, kudos to you, I think you guys have done an awesome job on the marketing side, on the packaging side, my wife and I purchased and ordered several products before we did this interview — I wanted to get kind of a feel of the experience — and have really enjoyed not only the products but also kind of seeing the behind-the-scenes of how you have distributed and packaged and marketed those. And I think you’ve done a fantastic job, so especially when you think about this as 10 months into the journey, so it’s really, really incredible. One of the questions I have as I think about just purely from the lens of a business owner is help me break down a little bit further, like what is the differential advantage of Emogene & Co. And the reason I ask that is obviously you’ve had success, but when I hear you talk about like natural and pure, like that marketing of skincare products — while I certainly don’t consider myself an expert in the space — is out there already and even if it isn’t natural or pure, how do you overcome that perception from the consumer that you can separate yourself from those products? So what is the differential advantage for you and your company?

Allyson Brennan: Yeah. First of all, thank you so much for such kind words. That really means a lot to people that start out and second guess themselves and they go back and forth and they’re passionate and the next night they’re like, am I doing the right thing? So I really appreciate that. But ultimately, Tim, it does fall back on “seeing what got you there.” It falls back on my pharmacy background, and I’m very thankful, and that’s not lost on me that I would not have the knowledge base to do this and feel good about what I’m putting out and solid and confident of what I’m putting out if I did not have that medicinal chemistry background and the pharmacy background in general. So you’re right, the skincare industry, like I said earlier and like you just alluded to, you know, there’s terms that are thrown around that people just don’t know what they mean. And as consumers, we are drawn to bright, shiny objects. And in the skincare industry, that looks like wonderful packaging, it smells good, feels good, but you fall for it might state that it’s natural but it’s actually not natural. And so — and I’ve turned down opportunities for a couple of collaborations with larger medical-scale type opportunities of products because they — it was not going to be a natural product. It was going to be synthetic. Because I do stand by wanting to stay with the natural because there’s — it’s just a world that is just wide. You can cast a wide net and get some really amazing, effective skincare that way. But my goal with this company was to offer natural skincare that’s effective, right? So I don’t want it to just be something that’s another option for people to not know what to do with their skincare, but I want it to be accessible, like I mentioned, but I want it to not be fussy. There’s a lot of options for people to take care of their skin, and I don’t want people to be confused about how to best take care of their skin. The other piece of this that I’m hoping to offer and that I really do hang my hat on with my company is the scientific background of the natural ingredients. Just because they’re natural does not mean that they don’t have the science behind them. They come from the earth, there’s science behind them. So I want people to know that there is legitimate education that is there behind that and lastly, where I really thrive and where I really know that I thrive and I love it and I really try to build on this is to offer that education to people.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Allyson Brennan: So as a small skincare company, which is sometimes labeled as indie skincare companies, you know, I’m not competing with the big guys. It’s an opportunity to really dial in with your customer base and with your clientele and to get personal with them. And the majority of how this business started was, like I said, those messages where people would say, “You offer these items. This is my skin type. Go. Like tell me what I need.” And for me, it is not about offering every item that I need them to buy. It’s really about building that trust. Honestly it is. So I will have women that will come and say, “Alright, I want the whole thing.” And I will say, “First of all, let’s talk about your skin type. But let’s start with these three things because I don’t want you to overwhelm your skin and then you might not appreciate the products or your skin might not just because it’s too much for you at one time. And then let’s build on it. So I want you to start with something that works for you, and let’s go from there.” So my goal is to offer yes, natural skincare, but that has a scientific background that can actually be spoken and related to but also there’s the education behind it. So to grow this company is not just to offer more products. It is to scale, that is a — it’s a pivotal point that I’m at now that is a new problem that I don’t know how to solve because I’m new at this. So you know, 2021 is a year of scaling. It’s a year of working efficiently, moving into a warehouse space, SEO and strategic marketing. I do have a girl that I’m about to bring on for that who is wanting to build a company because she’s worked for larger companies. I have a delivery lady that helps me part-time now so that gives me some time back in my day. But that still offers a customer experience for people to have the deliveries. So yeah, it’s really a combination of all of those things. But I want to separate myself apart by the pharmacist piece of it to speak to the actual education of what you’re putting on your skin.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that’s great. And one of the things you said regarding scale in 2021, I mean, it certainly feels like that, sounds like that, based on the trajectory you’ve had for the last 10 months. But as you sort of alluded to and didn’t say directly necessarily is scaling can have its challenges for a variety of reasons. And so the question I have for you is if we fast forward a year from today and you’re now looking at wrapping up almost the second year of the business, heading into the third year, what does success look like for you and for the business as a whole?

Allyson Brennan: Oh, man. It’s so funny, I was recently on a podcast, and that same question was given to me but in five years. And you know, I feel like as pharmacists, we’re so — we’re trained when we’re students going into trying to get a job or maybe getting into a residency of answering that five-year question. It is a different ball game for me now.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Allyson Brennan: So you know, I’m really back to that baby step, you know, of learning something brand new. So ultimately for me, where I find the most passion is the creative piece of this. Now, creativity is going to look different for me, like I said. I feel like I’m coming full circle to the little girl — I used to be an artist. Like I really loved to draw and paint and just be extremely creative in that sense. And there was some point in time, I would say maybe 8 or 9 years old, where something switched for me and I just became more math and science based. But I think what this company is really doing for me personally is opening back up that creative side. It looks at it in a different because I can tap into skills that I now have, right? So for a year from now, I need for me to keep my sanity to be at that place of efficiency. I want to always keep the creative edge. I always want to keep creating. There’s a lot of things I’ve created that just were terrible, you know, that I would never put on the market. But to really better streamline what I’m doing now, and that looks like a lot of things that are not in the lab creating. It looks like very much a business model, so having the right people around me that know that sense, that I trust and they really believe in this little company to grow, that’s a goal for me in a year. A year from now, a goal is to be in a third space because I’ve completely outgrown my house and also to create — still create that need and want. I mean, I’m tapping into a southern market here with my wholesalers and in clinics and my customer base. But it’s to continue to scale that. But I am only one person, and I only have 24 hours in a day, and I need about 30 hours, honestly. So

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, amen. Yeah.

Allyson Brennan: Yeah. You understand. And so I really want to learn how to segregate what that looks like for me but still continue that growth. And it might look like scaling back in pharmacy. I truly, truly hang my hat on pharmacy is what got me here. So I am not that person who is going to be cold turkey leaving pharmacy, you know? No matter how big the company gets, it’s a building block, baby step approach for me to step down as this grows. But I want to do it the right way. I don’t want to do it too fast. That’s very important to me.

Tim Ulbrich: And let me prod there a little bit because one of the things I’m thinking about this as, you know, I believe one of the challenges, especially of a successful business like this or for others that maybe have started a side hustle that grows quickly and can quickly outgrow the time that one has available to dedicate to it, you know, is that one of the risks is that it may not reach its full potential, which matters when you’ve got a really clear purpose and vision, right? Because ultimately, you know, there’s only so many hours in the day, and obviously you’ve got a purpose and a vision and a mission for why you’re doing what you’re doing. You’re not just selling products to sell products. So is that something that hangs on your mind, crosses your mind, that you’re not allowing the business to reach its full potential? Or is that an area, as you’ve kind of alluded to, that bringing the right people around you and putting you in the area that you can provide the most value to the company, that you’re going to be able to continue to see and scale that growth while also making sure the vision and the mission stays front and center?

Allyson Brennan: I mean, great question, Tim. Yes. It’s on my mind daily. Daily. And I would say it’s on my mind daily at this point because starting out, you know, last year or two years ago, you know, when I was literally just a consumer or even just January, taking my first order, I wouldn’t have known what to expect. I, like I said, didn’t go into this without really taking it seriously and growing and pushing. And I’m a hustler. I mean, I am. And that’s something that I understand about myself. So I use that to my advantage now, but I also really, really appreciate and thrive on relationships with people. So those are two things that are not something I do lip service to. They’re a part of who I am, and they’re a part of what this business is. So when I talk about am I doing a service, it’s funny, my dad — I’m very close to my dad. My dad is a farmer. And my dad knows how to grow something from the ground. It might not be skincare, but he knows what it looks like to start and then reach a certain level and then basically at the very end, reap what you sow.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Allyson Brennan: No pun intended, really. So he told me, I would say seven months in, he said, you’re behind and don’t even know it. And that has stuck with me so much because I was like, he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. And not even a month after that, it hit a whole new level. A whole new level. So yeah, it’s on my mind every day. I also have to say that I am the type of person, if I want to feel like — so there’s overwhelmed, right? And there’s underwhelmed or bored. And then there’s whelmed. And I think that everyone, everyone kind of thrives at a different threshold. For me, what I thrive is at overwhelmed for a lot of people. But I want to stay whelmed. Does that make sense?

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. Yep.

Allyson Brennan: I want to stay plugged in. I want to stay alive. I want to stay with my finger on the pulse of what is happening with this. So to do that, I have to feel like I’ve got a little bit of control with that, which for a lot of people seriously feels like they are spinning out, it is chaos — and it is chaos. I mean, it’s full-blown chaos.

Tim Ulbrich: Controlled chaos, right?

Allyson Brennan: It’s controlled chaos. 100%. So I’m starting to get much friendlier with the idea of bringing the right people in and making a team effort at this. And that is the way that me personally, I think that I can grow this and not feel like what you were saying where I’m not doing it a service because when I’m at work during the day in a hospital, I am 100% there. I am managing people, putting out fires, you know, provider and physician conversations, building formularies. And there is no time for all this. So then it is overwhelming when the minute I leave the hospital, right? So I want it to be something that when I leave, I am managing from that CEO perspective where I’ve got the right team underneath me that I trust, they’re just as invested as I am, but they are the people that will help that grow. And it’s not that they are employees of me. I want them to be a piece of what that is because they believe in it. So that is where I am now of looking at 2021 right now, I’m a baby in a product-based market. It’s the holidays, and I’m slightly terrified of what is coming. I’ve already had double the sales that I had last month at the end of the month.

Tim Ulbrich: Oh, gees.

Allyson Brennan: And we’re on — yeah. And I’m exhausted. And I’m overwhelmed, for me.

Tim Ulbrich: And for our listeners, it’s only Nov. 10 when we’re recording this.

Allyson Brennan: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: So.

Allyson Brennan: Yeah, so it’s — you know, it’s that Type 2 fun where it’s chaos in the moment and you look back on it and you’re like, wow. So I’m extremely proud of it, but I’m trying to stay very aware of what that is and then, you know, come 2021, I need to take a little bit of time to say, OK, we need to take some time, not do the logistics of filling the order, let’s gather my team and let’s look at what this looks like. And that is what is what my goal is for January 2021 so then we can approach the new year with the next products we put out are very smart, efficient products. I’m scaling back a couple of products that are my slowest movers, right? Hiring that SEO management, the marketing and strategic management, that is just not my forte. Hiring on a couple other girls that might not be full-time that I truly believe their attention to detail. And then from there, what happens? I did not see this happening with word of mouth in almost a year. So I really am so grateful but also very optimistic. But I do keep myself in check that if I reach a level that it doesn’t grow beyond that, I need to be OK with it. I need to know that I have exceeded what expectations were, and that’s a tough thing for me to swallow because I am not someone who celebrates the wins all the time because of how I am programmed. I tend to keep going and going and going and let’s keep building without sacrificing what your ultimate mission was in the first place. So I have to tell myself that, that’s a daily mantra that I tell myself, if this reaches a certain pinnacle and it wasn’t what you ultimately thought it would be, you need to be OK with it.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think, Allyson, as an outside observer, just kind of talking out loud as I hear you reflect on the journey and from our previous discussion, I think the business potentially gets bigger and more successful than it already has, which is incredible, and further achieves the mission and vision that you have with the business with less of you. And I mean that in the most sincere, kind way of like, you have built an incredible, incredible thing, but as I hear you talk about scaling up, bringing other people in, and I think putting yourself in the position where the company gets the most value from Allyson that nobody else can do as well, and then those other areas that maybe aren’t areas of interest or strength or that you have other areas of expertise you can bring in. But I think like the relationship piece, that certainly feels like a strength here, setting the vision, making sure you’ve got the right people on the team, on the bus, and bringing other people in that perhaps Emogene grows and will continue to grow and scale with more even balance of your time. And one of the questions I have for you is I know one of the daily struggles I have is pouring my time and energy into YFP because I believe its mission is that important but also balancing the time that I treasure, deeply treasure, with my wife Jess and our four boys. And so I suspect many of our listeners may be wondering what I’m wondering here, which is how do you reconcile how you spend your time and work on work and on the business and what that may mean for time away from family and friends, whether that’s short term or long term?

Allyson Brennan: Oh, man. This is the tough one for me. So we all have our strengths and our weaknesses and our opportunities for improvement. Let’s leave it at that. This is my opportunity for improvement with just who I am as a person. Let’s say — I’ll give you an example. I leave the hospital, it’s been a full day of meetings, committee meetings, building things, process improvements, yadda, yadda. And then my only alone time is the 35-minute drive home. That is it. I am not good at sitting. I’m not good at just listening to the radio, listening to a podcast. I am having business meetings for Emogene & Co. on the phone, I am — I shouldn’t say this — I’m texting and driving — but I’m still multitasking. And then I get home, I’ll pick my daughter up from school, and I will start with that piece of, you need to take — Allyson needs to take an hour, an hour to put the phone away, put all of the productivity away, you need to have a transition time between the first job and the second job, right? And I’ll say, OK, that means that I come in, I’ll lay things down, I’ll unpack the packages, the bulk packages that have come in, I will open them to see what it was today. And that’ll be it. Sometimes — more times than not, and I’m very transparent about this — two hours later, I’m still in the thick of now I’m processing orders, you know?

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Allyson Brennan: And what that does is that does take away time from my family. And I have — again, transparently speaking — this year has been a completely rebalancing of what it looks like for our family. I’m not saying it’s been easy. And now, I do have a support system. You know, my husband has supported, now he’s the cook for dinner every night, not me. But ultimately, I don’t want to be at that frequency. I want to be able to manage that better. And that is the ultimate growth for me. I think — I mean, this is just true and this is my psychology background speaking — we are all works in progress our entire lives.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Allyson Brennan: And the quicker that you learn as an entrepreneur or as a new person starting out, you give yourself some grace, you take a breath easier.

Tim Ulbrich: Amen.

Allyson Brennan: Instead of thinking that overnight, it’s got to be built. And that’s coming from someone who thought that overnight, it’s got to be built. I don’t — I don’t take the baby steps easily. But I know for my sanity and for the quality of life and for me ultimately to build a business, I have to learn that. That is a muscle I’m learning to flex and to build. So you have to start somewhere and you have to decide what it looks like and then block out all the other noise because the noise is what will get you off the path. The noise is what overwhelms you and makes you stop before you’ve started. And I’ve been there. So the balancing of the family life is something that is a daily struggle and on my mind. I’m getting better at it, and it’s because I know myself well enough now. I know myself well enough now that someone has to physically remove the phone from my hand. I know myself well enough now that someone has to physically take me away for me to vacate. I don’t do staycations. I don’t do weekend-long weekends. I don’t do any of that. That is not who I am, and I accept it.

Tim Ulbrich: The business is right there, yeah.

Allyson Brennan: The business is there. I accept it for me. My husband and I were huge travelers before we had our daughter. And now with COVID, it’s a little difficult. But for me to truly vacate, to let go of everything, to help reset your mind because we need that, I have to be gone. It’s got to be a certain type of trip that still speaks to me needing to be active, but I cannot tap into the things that drain you because you’re wanting to build them. So I think it’s — you’ve got to know how you’re programmed and how you’re built. And you have to just start somewhere and block out noise.

Tim Ulbrich: And that’s fantastic. And I love the self-reflection, the self-awareness. What you said really resonates with me and I think too just giving yourself permission, forgiveness, where you’re not going to get it right. It’s a life-long — I believe as well — it’s a life-long journey, and there’s going to be stumbles along the way. And I think that’s part of the process. And having those around you that can help keep you accountable and being willing to admit those areas where input and help would be valuable. So as we wrap up here, Allyson, where can our listeners go to learn more about you and the work that you’re doing?

Allyson Brennan: Sure. So for me, I have a website that’s available, it’s www.Emogene&Co.com — that’s all one word. And Emogene is interesting, it’s spelled Emogene. It’s an old-school spelling of the name a lot of people are not used to. Again, it pays homage to my grandmother, so Emogene&Co.com is the website. On Instagram, I am @__Emogene&Co__. And then on Facebook, I am Emogene & Co. So I am tapped into those resources all day, every day, if you can imagine from the podcast. And then email address, you can sign up for a subscriber, and you can contact me directly through the website.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff. And we will link to all of those in the show notes. And Allyson, this has been fantastic. You know, when I had first learned of the work that you’re doing, I got really excited of kind of the intersection of pharmacy administration, management, and entrepreneurship. And we both have some experiences in those areas. And I suspected this would be a fantastic story to share, and it certainly has. So thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show. I wish you the best of luck and success with the work that you’re doing, and we’ll be touching base in the future to see how things are going.

Allyson Brennan: Oh, it’s an honor, Tim. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

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Celebrating 100 Episodes of the YFP Podcast!

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Celebrating 100 Episodes of the YFP Podcast!

Tim, Tim and Tim celebrate 100 episodes of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast by reminiscing about their favorites, talking about the future of the podcast, and hearing updates from several guests and pharmacy entrepreneurs that were previous guests on the podcast.

Summary

YFP celebrates 100 episodes! Tim, Tim and Tim talk about their podcast journey so far, what’s to come in the next 100 episodes, and hear updates from guests and other pharmacy entrepreneurs.

The Tims agree that it has been incredible to witness the growth of the YFP community and extend their gratitude to all of the listeners. They find it inspiring to see how people are impacted and empowered by the content on the YFP podcast.

After discussing their favorite episodes, several previous guests come back on the show to share updates on their financial journey and they way the YFP podcast has impacted their lives. We hear from Nick Ornella, Jill and Sylvain Paslier, Derek Schwartz, Blake Johnson, Alex Barker, Blair Thielemier, Adam Martin, Ashlee Klevens Hayes, and Nate Hedrick.

The conversation shifts to why the YFP team continues to publish podcast episodes and what the next 100 episodes will consist of. Tim Baker shares that they are just scratching the surface and have so much more content and stories to uncover. Tim Church says that what motivates him to continue is when he hears stories of the transformation of people from the YFP brand. Tim Ulbrich is excited to continue moving the issue of personal finance and how it affects so many aspects of one’s life. Although the team at YFP are working hard to share the impact of personal finance, the collective community of pharmacists that have formed are where the big changes and movement will be seen.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to this week’s episode, Episode 100 of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Excited to be here in-person with Tim Church and Tim Baker. I don’t think there’s any other way we could have done this than being in person in Episode 100. We’re going to have fun with this episode. We’re going to reminisce a little bit on the journey, we’re going to talk a little bit about what the community means to us. We’re going to talk through some of our favorite episodes, and then we’ve got some special guests coming back on to the podcast, giving us an update and talk about what Your Financial Pharmacist has meant to them in their own journey as well. And then we’re going to finish off this episode talking about what do we see as the future of Your Financial Pharmacist? And what are the hopes and dreams that we have going forward? Now, before we get in and get a little bit sentimental on, you know, what this journey has meant for us, I want to first express I think as I was reflecting over the last few weeks, awaiting Episode 100, I was trying to think of what is one word or one feeling that comes to mind when I think about Episode 100. For me, it was a feeling of gratitude, of gratitude to the Your Financial Pharmacist community that really, without this community and without the support of empowering and helping one another and being so encouraging to one another, none of this is possible. And I think as we think back to starting this journey of the podcast back in summer 2017, it was all about creating a platform that inspired and empowered people to take on the steps that they needed to take towards their journey of financial freedom, whatever that might look like in their own financial plan. And to see some of that beginning to happen, to see the community empowered and helping one another is an incredibly powerful feeling and I think one that is more rewarding for us than certainly anything else. So Tim and Tim, as you kind of think on this journey, here we are at Episode 100, what are some of the feelings that come to mind, Tim Baker? It’s been a fun ride.

Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s really been unbelievable to me. And I think the podcast has really been a great conduit to really push forward I think our vision of what YFP, what we want YFP to be and I think what YFP is really doing for a community of like-minded pharmacists. And you know, I think when we met via Twitter and we were kind of looking at those messages back and forth — maybe we’ll post those on the show notes, you know just kind of the screenshots, which are fairly funny.

Tim Ulbrich: For someday when everybody’s like, what is Twitter?

Tim Baker: What is Twitter, yeah. You know, I guess I never would have thought that like this would have been a thing. So I think that I can’t really express the feeling that I get when we get feedback, either about the podcast or just us speaking, going around and speaking with different pharmacy schools and communities. And it’s just – I said it, it just jacks me up. It gets me fired up, you know, because other people are getting fired up about a topic that can be fairly dry and boring. But I think that that’s what this thing, YFP, is really – and it’s like when we started the podcast, it was me and you. And we’re like, what’s a podcast?

Tim Ulbrich: And will anybody listen?

Tim Baker: And will anybody listen? And I think the answer to that is yes. And you know, it’s kind of figuring that out and like now, it’s kind of taken on a thing of its own. And we’ve had so many great contributions and so many great stories and voices. Like, I’m a fan of the show. And lots of times these days, I’m not part of the show. But I listen and I get inspired by the community. And you know, that’s kind of been in the – it’s kind of poured over to this Facebook group and some of these other avenues that we see interaction and engagement. So if we would have – we’re at Episode 100, so we started the podcast two years ago, essentially, like I never would have thought it would have been this. I thought, you know, I thought we would have a few episodes. I think the average podcast is like eight episodes long or something like that.

Tim Ulbrich: Seven or eight is what I’ve heard.

Tim Baker: And we’re at 100. And I think it’s a credit to you, Tim Ulbrich and really Church, I think being all three of us kind of putting out great content, in my opinion, and seeing that engagement level rise and that needle move is what we talk about.

Tim Church: Yeah, first off, kudos to you guys because I had nothing to do with the podcast in the very beginning. And just taking it from idea and vision and actually making it happen, I mean, I think it’s unbelievable. I mean, when you look back, even the quality and the organization that you guys had to make this happen has been unbelievable. And to watch that grow over time has been really cool. And the opportunity to jump in on some episodes and then now kind of getting to interview some of the guests on the side hustle edition, it’s been really fun to be a part of that. But one of the things that really fires me up too is just seeing how this has been able to get the word out that this topic of personal finance is so important. But it’s not just about, you know, getting your finances in order and growing your net worth but just that feeling of relief, peace, the passion, and of being on that journey and feeling like you can do anything beyond just getting your finances in order. So I think it’s really cool to see that. And I think the pod has just been a great way to get the message out, to get people involved, and it’s resulted in a lot of great relationships over these two years, you know, with pharmacists in the community, with even non-pharmacists, with schools of pharmacies, organizations. So I think it’s just been a fun ride.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think that empowerment piece is so important. I mean, I’m thinking back to Tim Baker, when were at APhA in Seattle just a couple months ago, and people coming up to the booth and talking about the podcast. And you know, I think while it’s fun that people recognize the podcast, you know, that’s rewarding for a lot of the work. What gets me more excited is when somebody says with such enthusiasm, “Hey, I listened to this episode and now, my spouse and I or I did this or one step closer,” and they start to light up with energy that they feel like their finally in control of their financial plan. And it may be a baby step, it may be multiple steps, but that sense of empowerment as I think about the vision of where we were a few years ago, that’s what it’s all about. And it’s not about us, it’s about people feeling like that they are in a sense, in control of their finances and that peace of mind that comes with it. And I think that as I reflect, you know, Tim Church, when you talk about kind of not being involved as much in the podcast on the front end, like the work you’ve done with the side hustle series and as we really look back at the journey of 100 episodes, the front 50 really being focused on a lot more content and topics and we’ve shifted and done a little bit more on featuring more stories and side hustles and entrepreneurial types of journeys, we’re going to do a little bit of both going forward, but I think the evolution of the show over time has been a lot of fun. So let’s on that note, talk about favorite episodes because I think it’s fun to reflect back. And I think I have about 95 out of 100 of them memorized in terms of which episode. But I don’t think we could mapped out all the content that we’ve done. It’s been fun as we’ve had people reach out and say, “Hey, I’ve got a cool story.” And it kind of takes on a life of its own over time. So Tim Church, favorite episode? And maybe a runner-up.

Tim Church: So this is very tough. There’s a ton of them. And none of the ones that were my favorite are with me in them. So I’ll throw that out there. But Episode 057, the Power of Automating your Financial Plan, which is one that you did solo, Tim Ulbrich, which was awesome because I did one episode solo, and it’s really hard.

Tim Baker: It’s hard. It’s really hard.

Tim Church: It’s really hard to talk, but you did such a good job. And when I think about that topic, I think it’s so important to not only make it as a convenience factor, but really, that’s one of the most powerful ways to grow your net worth over time and getting that in play. And I think there’s a lot of cool technology out there that you can make it happen. But that, to me, was really powerful. And then my runner-up was Episode 073, How to Determine the Priority of Investing, which –

Tim Ulbrich: The buckets.

Tim Church: Yeah, which I nicknamed “Baker’s Buckets” because we talk about kind of the order in which you put in your tax-favored retirement plan. So that was a cool episode too.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. Tim Baker, what about you? Favorite and a runner-up.

Tim Baker: Yeah. I think my favorite, the one that sticks out to me, I really liked the episode with Adam and Brittany Patterson.

Tim Ulbrich: Oh, so good.

Tim Baker: Where, you know, I think Adam was the first episode in Episode 031 where he was just walking us through the journey of paying off $211,000 in 26 months. It’s unbelievable to me that to be able to achieve something like that in that short a time frame is just something that, you know, causes me to really pause and really think about that feat. And it’s impressive to me. And I think we had both of them back on Episode 059 to kind of talk through life after debt and really, the world’s their oyster. And obviously, I know Adam and Brittany. They’re actually clients of YFP Planning. And they’re just fantastic people and great to just learn more about what drives them and really help them to kind of take their journey to the next level. So I think those would be my 1A and 1B. I think my runner-up to that one, I really liked the episodes that Alex Barker, I think we had him on a couple times.

Tim Ulbrich: Three, right, now?

Tim Church: He holds the record.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Tim Baker: He’s one of those individuals that, like I think when he talks, I listen. I think he has a very conversational way to kind of get his point across and his story, and to be honest — I think I’ve told him this in the past is that when I was, you know, thinking about launching Script Financial, now YFP Planning, I needed an education. I needed to really understand more about the clients for which I was to serve, and at the time, I didn’t have a lot of pharmacy clients. But I really wanted to plug into that world and see what makes pharmacists tick, what are they really looking for? And in Alex’s podcast was actually one of the ones that I reviewed and listened to. And I really like it. And the fact that we had him on our podcast so many times, and he’s a big supporter of our brand and we of his, you know, I think what he’s trying to do with Happy PharmD is just commendable. And I think I really enjoy having him on the podcast.

Tim Ulbrich: Great recommendation — sneaking in three, by the way, with the 1A, 1B. We’re going to let it slide.

Tim Baker: Yeah, you know, I’ve got to have some more.

Tim Ulbrich: You know, I would add — certainly I agree with everything you said about Alex. I think he’s a thought leader, I think he stimulates great conversation, great discussion, which we need in our profession. You know, the Pattersons, what’s so cool when I think about the journey that they’ve had, they are now out there doing education.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: You know, they were at their state association right now in Alabama. So I think back to the compounding empowerment, like they had such a transformation. Now they’re sharing that journey to help others along that way. And that is awesome. I mean, that fires me up.

Tim Baker: It’s inspiring, yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s the exponential factor in terms of allowing the message to get out there and really having a true impact and change. You know, for me, I think that — this was really, really hard. I think about a lot of these episodes, and one of the things I’ve never talked about on the show before is I think selfishly, by doing so many of these interviews, being able to talk to these people is just an amazing benefit. It’s so inspiring and there’s stories that stay with me. They make me better as a person, as a father, as a business owner. And as I had to really think about which one of these, what rises to the top for me is Episode 060 with my colleague at the Ohio State University is Breanne Porter. And she talks so much about her lessons learned through accruing $224,000 of student loan debt. But I think why that episode stands out to me is her transparency and her honesty of what she didn’t know and what she now knows and how she feels throughout that journey. And I think that while we have featured so many debt-free stories along the way, what I really like about that is she’s not yet to the point of being debt-free. And she’s in the grind, she’s in the weeds, she’s working through it. And I think that’s going to resonate and will resonate with so many people as well. The other one that stands out to me, which I’m excited we’re going to have her back on the show in Episode 109 is we had Carrie Carlton on Episode 009. And she talked about her journey beginning to build a real estate empire. And spoiler alert: That empire has expanded. But real estate’s a passion of mine going forward and I think will be a great asset for many pharmacists to consider. And that opened up for me just a whole new area to think about of how she’s really leveraging her skill set in a very different way from pharmacy but is diversifying her income and building up assets in other ways. So those are our favorite episodes from the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. We’d love to hear from you about what you thought your favorite episodes were and of course, content ideas you have for us going forward, always welcome it. [email protected]. At this point, we’re going to bring back some of the guests that we’ve had on the show before, some of our favorite episodes and stories. We’re going to ask them, we have asked them to give a quick update of their story, where they’re at. And so let’s hear from those guests right now.

Nick Ornella: Hello, this is Nick Ornella from Episode 079 of the YFP podcast. Since being on the show in December, my wife and I submitted the final payment on her student loans, so over $37,000 paid off in a little over 10 months. We took a two-week trip to Spain and Morocco to celebrate and also to celebrate our 1-year wedding anniversary. And after that little spending splurge, we started saving again, this time hopefully to start a family here in the near future. I’m still working full-time as a pharmacy manager at Walgreens, and I’ve been working hard on my blog, the Young Professional’s Guide to a year off. And as YFP celebrates its 100th episode, YFP had an impact on my own journey because Tim Ulbrich was there for me way back in 2016 when I decided to take a year-long sabbatical from my pharmacy career to travel. I found the YFP website and blog and reached out to Tim, and he was there to give me advice and encouragement. He was a big reason why I decided to hit pause on my career and to pursue my dream of traveling for a year. And that year ended up being just an incredible experience and one of the best years of my life. So I’m forever grateful for Tim and YFP for the help and inspiration that he gave me. And I think the work that YFP is doing is important because it helps young pharmacists get out of debt, become financially independent so they can live more intentional lives and not be controlled by debt obligations. You know, it allows people to take bigger risks like starting a new business or becoming an entrepreneur or doing something crazy like I did and quitting their job for a year to pursue a lifelong dream. So a big congrats to Tim and the YFP team on 100 episodes. Please keep up the good work!

Jill Paslier: Hey, it’s Jill and Sylvain Paslier from Episode 050. We wanted to give you a little update on what we are up to now. We’re still budgeting every month, and it feels really great to be saving money instead of sending so much back to the bank for loan payments. Our current spending plan has a little more room for fun stuff like traveling and enjoying our hobbies like playing music. I’m also trying to be a resource for the local college of pharmacy to help encourage financial literacy education for the students. I’m also facilitating Financial Peace University, which is a Dave Ramsey course, at our local church.

Sylvain Paslier: Being in control of our finances and becoming debt-free has given me peace of mind to actually leave my 9-5 job and launch my own business. And I think it’s working well because I could focus on the work instead of worry about the money. I even started my own podcast.

Jill Paslier: I think YFP is a great resource, especially for students and new pharmacists as we are learning how to manage our own personal finances. Many of us make the transition from making very little money to making significantly more, and I think it’s important to make this adjustment wisely so that we have a purpose and a plan for our money. I also really love the online YFP community, such as on Facebook. We can ask questions and have peer support as we continue to learn about managing our money together.

Sylvain Paslier: While there are plenty of resources out there on wealth management and personal finance, finding a specific community of people that you can relate to makes for meaningful connections and increased motivation and progress, which is great about the YFP community.

Jill Paslier: Thanks for listening. Bye!

Derek Schwartz: Hi, this is Derek Schwartz from Episode 014 of the YFP podcast. My podcast aired in September of 2017, when I was still on my journey to becoming debt-free. And my journey started in late 2014, when I made my first student loan payment, and I had over $180,000 in student loan debt to tackle. 40 months later, in early 2018, I made my last student loan payment ever. I paid off $180,000 in debt in 40 months, and looking back on it, it was such an incredible time to not do things with money because I sacrificed every dollar that I could to go into student loans. Every penny I could pinch would go back into it. And that’s the secret. That’s what you’ve got to do. I tell people, if you’re really serious about paying off your debt as soon as you can, you have to budget and squeeze out every dollar and cent you can to go back onto the student loans. Trust me, it’s worth it being on this side. Since I’ve been debt-free, I’ve been able to save money for an emergency fund, I’ve increased contributions to my retirement accounts, and this summer, I’m looking to purchase my first home. All of that couldn’t have been accomplished without paying off my student loans first. And one of the reasons I’m really excited about the YFP community is it’s a group of other pharmacists that are looking for the same goal. They’re looking for financial stability. They want to get their student loans paid off. They want to save money for retirement so they can have some. And it’s such a great community that brings in all the questions, you can get all the answers there, and it’s been amazing to have been a part of it since Episode 014 of my podcast. Happy 100 episodes of the YFP podcast! And I look forward to the next 100. Thanks, everyone.

Blake Johnson: Hey, guys, this is Blake Johnson from Episode 082 of the YFP podcast. Just a quick update on where me and my wife are. We just finished up rehabbing our eighth rental property with our business partners. And that was exciting for us because in April, that marked one year of being in business, and we were able to close, rehab and rent out our eighth property. So we’ve made good strides here in our first year, and we hope to continue to do that in the following years. However, at this time, our market is getting flooded with investors, so we’re planning on slowing down the purchasing a bit and make sure we invest wisely and purchase at the right price. Outside of that, we continue to invest in our Vanguard funds, specifically, our BTSAX mutual fund and also invest and max out my wife’s 401k. This summer, we’re going to enjoy a little trip, bigger than usual. We’re going to go over to Europe and spend a week in Paris and Prague. We both like looking at architecture and just kind of soaking in the environment and culture over there. So we’re going to enjoy that. That’s just a quick recap on where we’re at. But I just want to congratulate the guys over at YFP for celebrating its 100th episode coming in. These guys are making a huge difference, and the reason why is as pharmacists, we just don’t receive, in most schools, financial matters. We spend so much time learning about clinical decisions and learning about all of the different chemistry and pharmacology of drugs, but we never have any education on finances. And that’s a problem because we’re in a profession where it’s great, we come out making six figures, but we have no education on how to invest that wisely. And the guys at YFP are making sure that we know how to do that. When we graduate, we can take two roads. We can go on one road and just spend it all and never invest it and when we retire, have no money. Or we can take another road where we learn to live on less than we make and invest it wisely. And the guys at YFP are laying out a great road map on how to do that. They’re teaching people how to invest it wisely, how to protect ourself with insurances and make sure you know who to talk to if you don’t understand the stock market and how to invest your money. So guys, congratulations on your 100th episode, and I hope down the road as we look back 20 years from this that we see pharmacists that are retiring with lots of savings and lots of money saved up. That way, they can continue to give of their time and also of their money, just like we give in our profession now. Congratulations, guys, and I hope to see more good from you.

Tim Ulbrich: So thank you to those guests that came back on the show, took time to give us an update on your story. We appreciate your contribution, obviously, to the podcast and the community. And at this point, we’re going to hear from some of the pharmacy entrepreneurs out there that have been just incredible collaborators and partners for us over at Your Financial Pharmacist and in large part, have allowed us to be successful in the work that we’ve been doing.

Alex Barker: Hey, this is Alex Barker, the Happy PharmD founder, where we help pharmacists create fulfilling careers and lives. I had the privilege of being on Episode 007, 038 and 092. 100 episodes! Congratulations, YFP team, all of you Tims. Few podcasters reach this milestone, so this is great. But what should be celebrated more is their mission because the more pharmacists who pursue financial freedom, the more impact our profession can make. Because I believe what stops most from pursuing a dream, a goal, a great ambition, something risky, is the excuse of not having enough money. But financial freedom makes that excuse go away. And in turn, it frees up pharmacists to pursue greater and bigger things. Look, I was able to pay off $200,000 in debt. And that has financially freed my family to live our dream. And this summer, we’re actually celebrating by going around the country in a road trip. This is something that we would never be able to do if we were financially burdened. And it may seem like a long way for you to go. But trust me, we thought the same thing when we first started this journey. You can do it. Financial freedom is possible. Cheers to the YFP team and all you financial freedom-seekers.

Blair Thielemeier: Hi, this is Blair Thielemeier, founder of Pharmapreneur Academy and author of “How to Build a Pharmacy Consulting Business.” I was a guest on Episodes 039 and 089 of the YFP podcast. And as they’re celebrating their 100th episode, I was reflecting on the difference that YFP is making in pharmacists’ lives in helping them create a solid financial foundation on which they can build a business. So we all know that the job market is somewhat shaky these days. Being able to build a side hustle in pharmacy consulting is literally changing pharmacists’ lives. And having a solid financial foundation just gives you the ability to take more risks in your career and do something you truly love. So I just wanted to say thank you to all the Tims for creating this amazing podcast and doing this work in helping pharmacists change their financial lives.

Adam Martin: Hello, this is Adam Martin, founder of the Fit Pharmacist, speaker and author of both “Rx You: The Pharmacist’s Survival Guide to Managing Stress and Fitting in Fitness,” and “Scripting Your Success: How to Jumpstart Your Career,” as well as host of the Fit Pharmacist healthcare podcast. I was a guest on Episode 091 of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, and as Your Financial Pharmacist celebrates its 100th episode, I want to congratulate the Tim team on this monumental achievement. Seriously, job well done, guys. I believe that Your Financial Pharmacist is making a difference in our profession because as pharmacists, we are trained to perform root cause analysis to medication error review. This translates to finances perfectly, as stated in their book, “Seven Figure Pharmacist,” as root cause analysis unveils that financial problems, regardless of the specific situation, stem from the five behavioral biases that impact financial decisions: overconfidence, hyperbolic discounting, loss aversion, status quo and herd mentality. In the book, Tim and Tim share their experience with all of the pharmacists and students they have helped to overcome financial burdens through their work. Overall, they help us to overcome the most common financial pharmacy pitfalls, keeping us away from financial fitness through the work that they do. Congratulations, guys, on all you have given through investing in our profession. Wishing you great success on the interest you have compounded throughout the years. With gratitude, Adam.

Ashlee: What’s up, listeners? Ashlee here from RxAshlee. I was on Episode 095, just a couple weeks ago, with Tim Ulbrich. And I had so much fun. And when I found out that you guys are celebrating your 100th episode, I was like, oh my gosh, I have to congratulate you. I know what an accomplishment that feels like. I understand the hard work, the blood, sweat and tears that go into building a podcast, building a platform, creating such an awesome, valuable show for the pharmacy profession. I believe the work that YFP is doing is critical because of the need that we are going through in pharmacy. So many of us are graduating with student loans. So many of us are graduating with all of these questions of how do I invest in myself? How do I prepare for my future? And all three of the Tims are really meeting us there. They’re giving us what we need and that support, tips, advice on how to strategize and making sure that we can live our best lives inside the profession and, most importantly, outside. So thanks again to all the Tims, to all the YFP community, you guys are really the future of this profession. And I love, love, love supporting you. Thanks again, and congratulations! I am always going to be one of your No. 1 fans.

Nate Hedrick: Hi, this is Nate Hedrick, founder of the Real Estate RPH and frequent guest of the YFP podcast. Just wanted to take a second to congratulate Your Financial Pharmacist on their 100th episode. I really feel like YFP’s making a difference in the pharmacy world. They’re providing some much-needed financial education. Especially as someone who graduated pharmacy school with literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loan, it’s been really nice having them as a resource as I work toward paying off that loan and ultimately, trying to achieve financial freedom. Looking forward to partnering with you guys even more in the future, and I’m excited to see what you have in store for the next 100 episodes. Congratulations, guys!

Tim Ulbrich: So to those pharmacy entrepreneurs, thank you so much for taking the time to provide your input and know that we, the collective Tims, have so much respect for the work that you’re doing. You’re an inspiration to us each and every day, each and every week, and it’s certainly fun to be a part of this community of pharmacy entrepreneurships that are, I think collectively helping one another and hopefully paving the ways for others that want to go into this area as well. So I want to end this episode in us having some conversation about why do we keep going? So as we think about episodes 101 through 200, you know, what’s the point? What’s the purpose? What’s the content? And why do we continue to go on this journey? And so Tim Baker, as we think about the future and where we’re heading and the mission of YFP and really, I think that we believe we’re just kind of getting started on this journey, what’s the future look like? Why do we keep going from here on?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so you know, I think sometimes it’s hard with the day-to-day, you get so busy with what you’re doing and obviously working with clients and things like that it’s sometimes hard to slow down and reflect, which is a little bit — I don’t want to say it’s hypocritical, but what I try to do is force clients to do that on their journey and with their financial plan and really take stock of where we’ve been and where we’re going. But you know, there’s a few times recently — obviously with this episode that you think about just where the heck we were a couple years ago and I think where we’re at. But I think more recently, you know, when we were at the APhA conference in Seattle, we had a booth there, and I wish Tim Church was there with us because he would have ran through a wall after that experience because he would have just been so fired up about I think the buzz that we saw there. And literally, I don’t even know how long we stood there just meeting different people that walked by our booth. But it could have been two or three, four hours, I have no idea. It felt like two minutes because you just talk to people — and I think one of the things that’s really crazy about the podcast is that you feel — people speak to you as if they know you. And maybe they do because they’ve heard us so much on the podcast. And you know, I don’t take that lightly. And I think for me, it’s just like you said, seeing people fired up about a topic that they maybe weren’t fired up about it two years ago. And I think about all of the content that we have out there with the podcast and the guides and the blog posts and things like that, but I really think that we’re only scratching the surface. I think that there’s so many things that we have yet to uncover, and I think the scope of what we’ve talked about it broad, but I think even doing a deeper dive or even expanding our scope and our discussion. And I think wanting to be thought leaders, you know, in and around the profession of pharmacy I think is important to us and really, ask those good questions. So I just get really, like I said, I get really fired up about thinking about where we still I think need to venture and go. And like I said, it’s been a great ride. Like I kind of reflect on my own personal journey, and I think about how grateful and how lucky, really, I am to have come across you guys, you know, Tim and Tim. And I think without you guys, like none of this is really possible. And I think like when we start to go down the path of saying, hey, we’re doing this podcast and we’re doing financial planning and the book and all this stuff, and I think the mindset from Day 1 is can we row this ship in the same direction, this boat in the same direction and one Tim looking out for the benefit and the interests of the other Tim has just been, it’s been an honor, really. Not to sound cheesy, but I know I’m exactly where I need to be because none of this feels like work to me. It feels like I am perfectly positioned to be doing what I’m doing because I enjoy working with pharmacists as a financial planner as much as I enjoy trying to figure out the business and where we’re going to go with YFP and, really, the direction that’s still ahead of us. So thank you guys. That’s my thought.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Church, what gets you jacked up about the next 100 episodes?

Tim Church: Yeah, it’s been a really fun ride. And I think that the one thing that really gets me fired up — and you guys kind of mentioned that already — is just the transformation. There’s been a number of people that have said as a result of interacting with our brand, whether it’s the podcast or some other form, that a change has happened for the better and that they’re in a better position than they were before they heard of us, before they listened to some piece of content, before a story was told. And so I think there’s a lot more people out there that need to hear some of these stories to get inspired and motivated because I think it can have just an incredible amount of change and movement across everybody in the profession. I think one of the other things that really fires me up is when schools and organizations reach out to us to come in and really be able to cater to a larger group. And I think that’s really a cool thing when we’re able to make a bigger impact in that way. So I think those things are really interesting and motivating to me to kind of keep things going.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And I think one of the things we’ve talked a lot about this weekend together is while certainly we are running a business, I think what gets us more excited is actually moving the needle on this issue. So as we all know that personal finance is such a thread of every part of your life that if your financial house isn’t in order, it impact lots of things. It impacts marriages, it impacts relationships, it impacts your quality of life, your satisfaction at work. And I think really moving the needle with helping on these transformations and helping people put their financial house in order is really what we want to hopefully continue to do and look back and say, ‘That was a really fun journey in doing it.’ And one of the things I think we’re super passionate about is this education around personal finance and financial literacy needs to be in every college of pharmacy across the country. And we’ve begun to pave that road, but we have some exciting plans hopefully to continue that into the future, but making sure that every graduate is coming out with some basic skill level and understanding of what they need to do as it relates to their financial plan. And I should say that the only way we’re going to move the needle on this issue is not through the three of us running as fast as we can. The way we move the needle on this issue of personal finance and everything that comes with it is through the collective community of thousands and thousands of pharmacists saying, we care about this topic and we want to do this a different way than maybe it’s been done before. And that’s what it’s about. It’s about empowering the community to collectively move this issue forward. And we’re not going to do it as the three of us. It needs to be this group as a whole. And so I want to also thank — you know, I think just to echo Tim Baker’s comments — I mean, without the three of us, I think the collective power of what we each bring, you know, this wouldn’t be where we’re at. So I think us working together and running the same direction is where we need to go with the community alongside of us. I think we also would be remiss if we didn’t thank Shea, Andrea and Jess for — this takes a lot of time. I think we’ve been spending three or four hours this afternoon putting together a couple episodes, and that means sacrifice, it means time away from family. And that’s not easy. And I think for them, allowing us to pursue our dream and our passions, you know, I think it goes without saying that we love you guys and certainly appreciate what you do. And Caitlyn and the entire team at YFP, Caitlyn, Paul, Frankie, Tom…

Tim Baker: Christina.

Tim Ulbrich: Christina, I mean, as we think ahead to the future, hopefully more on the team as well. We’re so grateful for your buy-in to the vision, your commitment to what we’re trying to do. And again, it’s about the team, and the team is really I think moving everything in the same direction. So let me wrap up by saying to the YFP community, we thank you. We’re grateful for your continued support of the work that we’re doing. We’re excited to be here at Episode 100, but I think we’re more excited about what lies ahead for the next 100 and beyond.

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YFP 089: From Unemployed to Successful Pharmapreneur

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From Unemployed to Successful Pharmacy Entrepreneur

On this episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, Tim Ulbrich, co-founder of Your Financial Pharmacist, interviews Dr. Blair Thielemier, a successful pharmacy entrepreneur. She is the founder of BT Pharmacy Consulting, creator of the Pharmapreneur Academy and the Elevate Pharmacy Summit and author of the Amazon bestselling book How to Build a Pharmacy Consulting Business. Tim and Blair talk through pharmacy entrepreneur opportunities she has discovered through her journey from losing her job as a clinical hospital pharmacist to building a successful online business that provides pharmacists with efficient systems to managing a sustainable model for clinical services to improving patient outcomes and achieving the highest standards in the practice of pharmacy. They discuss what makes her tick as an entrepreneur, what changes she is seeing in the profession of pharmacy and how having your personal financial house in order is integral to having a successful business.

About Today’s Guest

After graduating with her Doctor of Pharmacy from the University of Arkansas for the Medical Sciences in 2011, Blair unexpectedly lost her full-time income as a clinical hospital pharmacist in 2014. She was asked to serve as an independent Medication Therapy Management Consultant Pharmacist, a niche position that was entirely new to her at the time but would be instrumental to her future success and entrepreneurial journey. For the past three years, Blair has been focusing on elevating the profession of pharmacy through advanced clinical services. In 2015, she founded a pharmacy consulting business BT Pharmacy Consulting, LLC and currently trains and coaches other pharmacists looking to start their own consulting businesses through an online e-course and membership site at the PharmapreneurAcademy.com . In April 2017, she launched the first online pharmacy conference in the industry. In 2018, based on the success of the first summit, she hosted a five day encore event in partnership with the National Community Pharmacists Association’s Innovation Center. The Elevate Pharmacy Virtual Summit featured pharmacists of various backgrounds practicing pharmacy at the peak of the profession. She is also the author of the Amazon bestselling book How to Build a Pharmacy Consulting Business.

Summary

Blair shares her story of losing her full-time clinical hospital pharmacist job to building successful online businesses. In 2014, while pregnant with her first child, Blair lost her job. Not knowing where to turn, she first took a hard look at her family’s finances to determine how much they truly needed to live and where they could cut their budget. From there, Blair contacted local independent pharmacies in her community to see if they needed her to fill in any shifts. She was given an opportunity to take over cases in a clinical program which she first declined. Blair felt like she wasn’t an expert enough in MTM to take on these cases. She thought she needed further board certifications or a master’s degree to be successful in this line of work. After accepting the position the second time, Blair discovered that MTM consulting was her passion and knew she needed to begin a business in northeast Arkansas and southeast Missouri.

Blair decided she would initially take on 3 or 4 coaching clients. She found challenges with each client as they were building their own businesses and was able to work through them. These experiences ultimately led her to develop her Pharmapreneur Academy course.

In working with clients to help them grow their businesses, Blair sees that pharmacists need to see their own value before they can pitch themselves confidently, that pricing your services appropriately is incredibly important so customers can see the value they are receiving, and that skills and trainings should be added as they are needed instead of adding them in case they are needed. Blair also shares about the need to bring more services elements versus products to clients.

Blair discusses other opportunities and platforms that are becoming available for pharmacists to work in, like genetic testing, the extremes of beginning the journey as an entrepreneur, the biggest mistakes she sees pharmapreneurs make, and much more.

Mentioned on the Show

LendKey
BT Pharmacy Consulting
Pharmapreneur Academy
How to Build a Pharmacy Consulting Business: Your Rx for Finding Freedom and Loving Your Career by Blair Thielemier, PharmD
How I Built This Podcast with Guy Raz
Small Passive Income with Pat Flynn
Mindset: The New Psychology of Success by Carol S. Dweck
Elevate Pharmacy Summit

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to Episode 093 of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. This episode has been a long time in the works where I have an opportunity and privilege to interview Dr. Blair Thielemier. So quick bio on Blair: After graduating with a doctor of pharmacy from the University of Arkansas for the Medical Sciences in 2011, Blair unexpectedly lost her full-time income as a clinical hospital pharmacist in 2014. She was asked to serve as an independent medication therapy management consultant pharmacist, a niche position that was entirely new to her at the time but that would be instrumental to her future success and entrepreneurial journey. The past three years, Blair has been focusing on elevating the profession of pharmacy through advanced clinical services. In 2015, she founded a pharmacy consulting business, BT Pharmacy Consulting, and currently trains and coaches other pharmacists looking to start their own consulting businesses through an online e-course and membership site at pharmapreneuracademy.com. In April 2017, she launched the first online pharmacy conference in the industry. And in 2018, based on success of the first online summit, she hosted a follow-up event, a five-day encore event in partnership with the National Community Pharmacists Association Innovation Center. The Elevate Pharmacy virtual summit featured pharmacists of various backgrounds practicing pharmacy at the peak of the profession. And she’s also — in case that wasn’t enough — the author of the Amazon best-selling book, “How to Build a Pharmacy Consulting Business.” Blair, welcome to the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast.

Blair Thielemier: Thank you for having me. Excited to be here.

Tim Ulbrich: This has been a long time in the making, so I’m excited to get you on the show. And I was planning, I went way back to 2016, shortly after I started Your Financial Pharmacist. And you may remember, you wrote an article for us on the blog, “Four Ways for Pharmapreneurs to Improve Their Financial Equation.” And we’ll link on that, but our discussion is really going to build on that. And I’ve been following along your journey and genuinely have great respect for the work that you’re doing that’s having a positive impact on the profession and, I believe, allowing pharmacists to pursue the dreams that they have to be the best clinician and the best businessperson that they can be. So thank you for your contributions, and thank you for role modeling that, even for my own business. I appreciate it.

Blair Thielemier: Thank you. I think it’s important, that’s something we don’t get a lot of in school, right, is how to promote our businesses, how to promote ourselves and market our services in the right way. So I thought it was something very important to help other pharmacists with.

Tim Ulbrich: All the fun stuff, right, that we don’t get in school.

Blair Thielemier: Exactly. I love it.

Tim Ulbrich: So as I was preparing for this episode, I was going back through the website, I was recalling my own experiences just following you and your business growth, and I thought, what a journey that you have been on. And so I want to start by taking our listeners back to 2014, just a few years after you graduated from UAMS, you’ve got your PharmD, you’ve been out for a few years, you’re working as a clinical hospital pharmacist. And you lose your job. What are you thinking at that point in time? What are the thoughts that are going through your mind?

Blair Thielemier: One of the main ones is “I am 6 months pregnant, I have a baby on the way, how am I going to pay for this?” I was planning on an 8-12-week maternity leave. Now, is that going to be completely out the window? Pretty much, how am I going to replace this income? But you know, before I could even start looking at that, Tim, I had no idea how much income I needed to replace. And I think that is an important part to start with in my story is literally, the first thing that I did after I lost my job was I went and signed up for Mint.com and Personal Capital, all these different sites and started trying to figure out, OK, if I’m going to make the bare minimum to get by, what does that bare minimum look like for me? And really, drilling down on our expenses, exactly how much we needed to bring in each month to keep our lifestyle pretty much the same.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and we’re going to dive into that here in a little bit because I think as you and I have talked about before, getting your personal financial house in order is so critical to being able to approach business with confidence, to being able to take the risks that you need to take. And I think building a healthy business is a lot of that depends on your own personal finance. So here we are, you’re at 2014, you all of a sudden lose that full-time income. Do you think, as you reflect back on your journey today — and we’ll talk about the work that you’re doing here in a little bit — but do you think you ever get to the point of developing the businesses you started, taking the risks you started if that wouldn’t have happened back in 2014?

Blair Thielemier: Absolutely not. No. I think I was interested in entrepreneurship, but I really thought it was going to be something outside of pharmacy. I don’t think that I realized this opportunity existed until it happened. So when I lost my job as a clinical hospital pharmacist, I was pregnant, so I was just picking up shifts here and there at local independent pharmacies. So I was hustling on my student loans before we decided to have a baby, trying to get all those paid off. So people kind of knew me in the area as someone they could call with extra shifts. So I had gotten my name out there as a relief pharmacist for independent community pharmacies. And pretty much I just started calling them up and saying, “Hey, you know, I’ve got a lot of days open here if you need any vacation time.” And that’s how it grew. So I started doing that, picking up relief shifts, and to their credit, these pharmacy owners, they wanted to help me. I mean, they just welcomed me with open arms and really made up the difference in those shifts. So in working back in community pharmacy, they were like, “Hey, you’ve got this clinical background. We’ve got these clinical programs that we have to do now called CMRs, and we’d really like for you to start doing them for us, start taking over our MTM program and figuring out how to see these patients.” And I’d never done it before, so the first time they asked me, I said no because that’s scary, right?

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Blair Thielemier: You’re billing Medicare for a service that isn’t a product. And so luckily, I had kind of a mentor of mine, someone I had worked with in the past who she was doing some independent consulting doing MTM. And she helped walk me through my first few cases. So as I started doing more and more cases for these pharmacies, I fell in love with it. And I thought, this is what I need to do. I need to grow my MTM consulting business in northeast Arkansas and southeast Missouri because I’m licensed in Arkansas and Missouri. And so that was my focus. After the baby came and she was doing wonderful, so really in 2015, I’m thinking, OK, I’m growing this business. How am I going to do it? I know. I’m going to put up a website because if you put up a website, people are just instantly searching for you.

Tim Ulbrich: Or make a business card, right?

Blair Thielemier: Or make a business card and just hand that out to everyone you see, and then your business will be successful, right?

Tim Ulbrich: Right, right. Yeah.

Blair Thielemier: Well, the problem with having a website is if you don’t have a plan to attract traffic to your website, it’s pretty much like that business card that’s probably in your glove box in your car, and no one’s seen it. So what I did, I was sharing information about MTM on my website and on my blog, which was BT Pharmacy Consulting. And if you had seen it back then, it was really, it was focused on people hiring me. So I was sharing this —

Tim Ulbrich: I remember that. I remember that.

Blair Thielemier: Yeah. So I mean, it came about very organically because I was trying to build my business here locally, and as I was doing that, I was writing these blogs and sharing them on LinkedIn, and then other pharmacists started contacting me like “What are you doing? What is MTM consulting? How can I do this? I’d love to get out from behind the bench, even if it’s just a few days a week.” And so I decided at the end of 2015 I would take on three one-on-one coaching clients, other pharmacists, just to see if I could help them. And very quickly, we identified several challenges to building their businesses, and we were able to work through those. And that experience with those three one-on-one coaching clients is what I decided to turn into the e-course at the Pharmapreneur Academy.

Tim Ulbrich: So much to unpack there. And I appreciate you sharing that. And you know what jumps out to me as I think about a lot of pharmacists out there today that I’ve heard from that are frustrated with either, you know, hours getting cut or frustrated finding a position, and you know, thinking back to your journey in 2014, you find yourself in that position, and at that point in time, you have a mindset decision to make, right? Is this going to be a woe is me? Or is this going to be an opportunity to build relationships, leverage the relationships you had, take some initiative, which you did, see a problem that needed to be solved and work through that? And obviously, as you know in building a business, you take one step, that leads to another step, that leads to another step. But often, we get hung up in kind of the overall vision, which can be very overwhelming. One thing I want to ask you about, though, that stuck out to me there is that you said no at first. So when you talk about those other pharmacies that you were working with, you said no at first. And you alluded to the Medicare reimbursement and maybe not fully understanding or appreciating that at the time. But were there other reasons you said no at that point in time? I mean, were there things that you felt like confidence-wise or self-limiting beliefs or things that you didn’t feel like you had the tools to begin with the business? I mean, I know you worked through that, but what were the reasons that you said no to begin with?

Blair Thielemier: Oh, absolutely. And this is what I also found my first coaching clients struggling with too. So one of the big ones was not feeling like I was the best person to do this job. So I felt like I wasn’t expert enough in MTM. I felt like I needed a Master’s in MTM or a board certification in ambulatory care or just whatever I could think of, I’m thinking that’s my comfort zone. I mean, I know that I can get through school, I can pass these courses, and I can rack up this education. And I do, I’m big on personality tests and stuff. So I’m an INTJ, and the trap that I myself get stuck in a lot is the neverending pursuit of more knowledge. Like I need to know everything about a subject before I can move forward with it. And really, what the mentor, Ashley, was able to help me with in walking me through those first few cases is just seeing how I already had the tools and the skills that I needed. And you know, and then when I went and started looking at, OK, now I want to build this business, I think I need to go back to school and get an MBA because you can’t own a business if you’re not an MBA, right? And so it was just — it’s been a constant struggle for me to, you know, to view myself as expert enough to be able to offer these services. And so it’s something I see other pharmacists struggling with. You know, all the time, they ask me, “Should I go and take this course? Should I go and take this certification?” or whatever. And I’m like, “Well, what are you doing? What does your client say you need? What setting are you working in?” So really, now, I like to say, I add skills and trainings as I need them not in case I need them. And that’s been a huge learning curve for me.

Tim Ulbrich: I think you are so spot-on there. I think for many pharmacists, myself included, we tend to be learners by nature. Right? And that’s who we are, and I think there’s a tendency to feel like we need to acquire all this knowledge, and I think if we’re honest with ourselves, many times, that’s an avoidance of wanting to really step into something that we can think we could do, whether it’s business or take on some risk or whatever, and it’s an easy out to begin to continue to pursue. And I would point our listeners to — I’m sure you’ve listened to the “How I Built This” podcast on NPR. And many of those successful entrepreneurs and business stories, many of them don’t have formal education. I would say a vast majority of them do not. What they saw was a problem that needed a solution, and they took a risk to do that. They were confident in their ability, but they weren’t perfect in their ability. They made mistakes, they had self-limiting beliefs like we all do, but they took that step. And I think that’s an important piece for many of our listeners to think of as they’re considering their own journey. So one thing I want to ask you, Blair, is that I think there’s many I’m sure that are listening to this podcast that have some business aspirations to take a unique talent that they have to tap into some unsolved problem or maybe a process that could be done better or differently, or maybe there’s others listening that are feeling stuck in their job but don’t yet have an idea formulated for what their business may be, whether that’s a side hustle or a formal business. And I think when hearing and seeing your story in hindsight and as I introduce you and hearing about all the success you’ve had with the academy, your consulting work, the book, the summit, on and on, that can feel overwhelming to people that are just beginning. What advice would you have to somebody who’s just starting or beginning on that path to overcome that anxiety and overcome that comparison with others and to just take that first step in getting started.

Blair Thielemier: Well, first of all, I’m a huge proponent of a side hustle or building some kind of business as an additional income stream. I think we’re living in the gig economy, and I see pharmacy consulting as a way to leverage the skills and stuff you already have because a lot of people come to me and I get emails all the time. It’s like, “I was afraid I was going to have to leave pharmacy because it’s just not for me. But that was before I knew that consulting was an option.” So whether it’s consulting, whether it’s real estate, whether it’s creating your own podcast about personal finance, whatever it is, whatever your passion is, I think it’s about looking at the value that you can provide the person in front of you. So you know, one thing I like to say is you first have to be sold yourself on your value in order to pitch your services confidently.

Tim Ulbrich: Amen.

Blair Thielemier: So unless you’re running a charity, you do have to charge money for your services, and I think selling yourself is an art. So talking about, oh, I’ve got this, this, this and this, like certification or letters behind my name, well, nobody cares about that. But they care how you can help them achieve whatever goals or results they’re trying to get to. So when you’re talking about say you’re pitching a physician’s office, you’re going into a physician’s office saying, “I’d really like to come in and see some of your patients. There’s this thing called pharmacy consulting that they’re embedding clinical pharmacists into primary care settings all across the country. Doctors are loving it, it’s helping with burnout. The financial guys in the office are loving it because I’m going to be helping with quality metrics and meeting your MACRA and MIPS quality measures, helping you get better reimbursement, no late penalties and all this,” but you’re not saying, “I can do this, this, this and this. I learned how to do motivational intervene, I learned how to — I’m a certified diabetes educator, blah blah blah.” You’re not talking about what you can do. You’re talking about what they need.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Blair Thielemier: So when you’re thinking about promoting your services, whatever it may be, think about what the result the other person wants to get. So I say if you’re going into that physician’s office, you don’t have a relationship with them, go in with a list of questions because you can’t offer them a solution until you know what their problem is. And I think that’s pretty similar to and can be applicable to most businesses is your marketing message needs to be tailored directly to the needs of the person that you’re hoping to serve.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And I think, you know, I’m thinking of as you were talking there, you know, Pat Flynn and his podcast, “Smart Passive Income,” and his focus is on providing value, right? You have to know what you’re bringing to the table. You have to know what the problems are before you start to present solutions. And just to build off of what you said, Blair, around pharmacists charging, I think one of the things that I often see is pharmacists tend to undercharge for their services because they don’t yet fully believe in the value of what they bring to the table. And second to that, they don’t fully account for all the expenses that are involved with providing something. They stop often at their salary and say, this is what I make per hour, and this is the value I bring. I think that gets to some of the business aspects of the plan. I’m sure you see that way more than I do with your clients.

Blair Thielemier: Yeah, absolutely, because you do need to take into account, well, I’m going to have to be paying for some other stuff that are benefits given in my job like liability insurance and maybe even health insurance if you’re looking at doing this full-time. So there is a difference in what you’re going to charge as a consultant just to cover those basic expenses. But I also believe in — especially for cash-based services — you’re also pricing yourself and your services based on the results that you’re getting for the person. So you know, for example, when I started looking at what do I charge pharmacists for the academy? It’s what could building a business do for your life in terms of financial freedom, in terms of financial flexibility? And then I want to price it appropriately so that the customer also sees the value because if I was giving this stuff away, then people would not be as invested in, OK, you know what, I’m going to do this. I’m going to take this advice and move it forward. And that’s the same for our patients. If I’m doing a genetic consult for somebody, you know, I charge my full rate because I want them to take it seriously, to be fully invest in the results and what I’m telling them, and then also to commit to making the changes that I suggest in my recommendations.

Tim Ulbrich: So Blair, shifting focus here a little bit, we have — as you very well know — a healthcare system that is moving towards value-based care and payment models. But largely, what I’m seeing outpatient pharmacy — not everywhere, but is really stuck still based on a payment-for-product model. We seem to be caught in this chicken and the egg situation where we want to evolve the role of the pharmacist and be doing non-dispensing care activities and leveraging their expertise, but we seem to be in this vacuum where the payment mechanism don’t support these efforts for a variety of reasons. Simultaneously, we’ve got a growing number of graduates, pharmacies that are cutting their hours, we’ve got automation and technology and Artificial Intelligence and states that are expanding the roles of technicians and other healthcare providers that, to be frank, have prescribing rights but are available at a cheaper cost than a pharmacist. What do you as a thought leader in this space, what do you make all of this? And where do you see you role in addressing some of these problems?

Blair Thielemier: So the new models of care, that’s exactly the reason why I created the Elevate Summit because I wanted to share stories and the experiences of pharmacists who were doing something differently and succeeding in adding a more service-based product into their toolkit, so to speak. So you know, traditionally, pharmacy has always been a product-based business. And I think as we’re seeing reimbursements decline, we need to bring in those service elements because they can be profitable, you can charge cash for a lot of these things, and there are people all across the country that are doing them very, very successfully. So what I wanted to do with the Elevate Summit was to highlight some of these models, you know, one this year I’m in the process of recording interviews for the 2019 summit. This year, I’m interviewing a pharmacist with an all-cash business model — a pharmacy owner with an all-cash business model. I’m interviewing one who brings in an embedded nurse practitioner to do MedSpa stuff. So they’re doing like chemical peels and Botox in the pharmacy. And others, they’re doing diabetes education, they’re doing travel vaccines, they’re doing consultations on health and wellness. There’s so many different things that we can provide. And then to answer your point about there are other people out there that can provide similar services that may be cheaper than a pharmacist. So I hear this all the time. Why would a physician hire a pharmacist when they can just hire another nurse practitioner or physician’s assistant and the billing is so much easier? I mean, that’s a fantastic point. So you know what? I asked one of our physicians that’s joining us on this year’s Elevate Summit that exact same question. And what he said was, “They’re trained in the same way that I’m trained. A pharmacist is trained in a completely different way than the way I was trained.” So what he saw the value of the pharmacist is as bringing in that different perspective in looking at it at a completely different angle whereas the nurse practitioner or the PA, who were trained in the same way, are looking at it kind of from the same lens as the physician. So I think we need to own our expertise in the area of medication management and optimizing therapy. And I also think there’s a lot of opportunities — you know, everybody’s into genetic testing now. It’s like for Christmas, everybody gets like one of the —

Tim Ulbrich: It’s the cool thing to do.

Blair Thielemier: It’s the cool thing to do. One of my friends told me that her aunt and uncle went to a party — they’re from New York — and they went to a party, and the party favor like an Ancestry DNA kit.

Tim Ulbrich: Oh my gosh.

Blair Thielemier: So they all did their DNA swabs and then they had another party later to come back and everybody looked at their results, and it was all fun and games. And I’m like, OK, but did you know that you can actually use that information to make medical decisions about your health? I mean, you can use that information more than just like, oh, that’s cool, I’m 20% Irish or whatever. You can really dig in a lot deeper, and so that’s one platform that I want to promote more this year personally is getting out there and talking about the value that pharmacists can add in helping decipher some of these genetic test results. So I started — after my son was born, I’ll share this quick story. So my son was born in December of 2017, and when he was born, the neonatologist had him under the light and they were looking at him and she was holding him on his belly and kind of looking at the base of his spine, and he has a very, very deep sacral dimple. And my daughter had one too but not near as deep as what his was. And the neonatologist said, if I can’t see the bottom of this, we’re going to need to do an ultrasound to make sure that it’s not open. And so you know, I told her, I said, “My daughter had the exact same thing. She’s fine. There was no neural tube defect or anything like that.” And his was closed too, thank goodness. It was just much, much deeper than hers. So then I’m thinking, I took folic acid my entire pregnancy. What’s the deal? I had actually taken it from the time Aven (?) was born until the time Hoyt (?) was born, so I knew that it wasn’t because I wasn’t taking folic acid. But when I went and did my — it was one of the direct-to-consumer DNA kits, it came back that I had a high risk of Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s, which actually exists on both sides of my family. My maternal grandmother has Parkinson’s, and my paternal grandmother died eventually of Alzheimer’s. And so in kind of digging a little bit deeper, I started looking at I’ve got this mutation in MTHFR that prevents me from being able to metabolize folic acid into the fat form, and so pretty much the folic acid I was taking wasn’t doing anything for me. But it was also, I went and got a blood test because I’m a guinea pig. And I like to — before I started taking methylated folic acid or anything like that, I wanted to know, what were my levels? What was my homocysteine level? And being able to start tracking that. So I went through with a fine-tooth comb, looked at all of my genetic markers, took them to my doctor. I was like, here’s the test I want. You can imagine. He was a very good sport about it, he was like, OK, I’ll try to figure out what these are and how we’re going to code these for your insurance. And so we did that, and you know, it came back that I’m a homozygous variant for the MTHFR mutation, and you know, I think now how close was my son or my daughter to having a neural tube defect because even as a pharmacist, I didn’t know that this existed.

Tim Ulbrich: And that’s why that party needed a pharmacist there to help them interpret their results. Right? And take some action.

Blair Thielemier: Exactly.

Tim Ulbrich: No, I think that’s a huge opportunity, and I’ve been following the work that you’ve been doing there, which is exciting. So for a minute, I want to talk about the value of having a sound personal financial situation to be in a position to start and grow a business. And I know this is a topic that you talk about with your community members and those in the academy and those that you’re coaching with the belief that really, a financially healthy business is built off the foundation of a financially healthy individual. So what does this mean for you and as you’re working with clients? You know, obviously, I’m sure for everybody, getting rid of all of their debt and everything is not necessarily realistic. What do you use in terms of the advice of getting yourself in a sound financial position that will allow you to take the risks and go confidently into the business aspirations that somebody has?

Blair Thielemier: Well, one question I get all the time is, how quickly will I be able to replace my salary? And so that question is a little bit difficult to answer because it’s kind of like, well, how much do you need? Not how much are you making right now.

Tim Ulbrich: Exactly.

Blair Thielemier: Not how much are spending that maybe isn’t on the necessities. But how much do you absolutely need? And that’s why I said when I lost my job, kind of the first thing that I went to was starting to track our budget because, Tim, this is embarrassing to admit. I didn’t know how much I made each month.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. Hey, I was there.

Blair Thielemier: I had no idea.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Blair Thielemier: I knew what each paycheck said, but I had never really sat down and been like, OK, this is how much income I’m averaging each month. And I definitely didn’t know how much I was spending each month. If I didn’t even know how much — I knew a roundabout, but I didn’t know exactly how much I was bringing in each month. And I definitely didn’t know how much I was spending each month. So whenever I was able to take a hard look at those numbers and figure out, you know what, I don’t need to go shopping on Saturday afternoon because it’s raining and there’s nothing else to do and that kind of stuff that I was able that year that Aven was born, I lost my job, to take a $40,000 pay cut and be fine. We were able to now live well below what we were actually spending once we sat down and took a look at it.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think that is great advice. And we’ve talked so much on the podcast about budgeting to be able to determine what are those essential expenses, what to cut if you need to cut, and I think that’s huge for those thinking about some business ventures. They’ll say, OK, what do I actually need to live off of rather than what am I currently making or what am I currently spending each and every month. A couple things I would just add to that is that I think there’s two extremes on this that I’ve seen with the business, you know, some that say, I’m just ready to jump in, and I’m not worried about these aspects of my personal financial situation. And then the other end that says, I want to have everything lined up. I want to be completely debt-free, have a fully funded emergency fund, be on my path towards retirement, all these things taken care of before I jump into business. And you know, I believe that there’s probably somewhere in the middle that is reasonable for everyone. So maybe you look at, OK, I’ve got a plan for debt repayment, I’ve got a solid budgeting process in place. I’ve got an emergency fund. I’ve got the basics around insurance coverage while I’m working towards these other things, but I at least feel like I have a solid foundation so that I can jump into this business with confidence. And I think that allows people to approach their business in a more confident way and take the risks that they need to be taking. Blair, what are maybe the one or two biggest mistakes that you see new pharmacy entrepreneurs making? I mean, what are kind of the common traps that either fell into, probably I fall into, that you often see people that you coach going into? You maybe alluded to one with the idea of the website and feeling the need to start there. But what are some of the other common things that you see?

Blair Thielemier: So I think, you know, you mentioned not having — like some people have to have all of the information before they move forward. And definitely that was something that I probably should have been a little bit more diligent about when starting a business. I knew that I needed to register my business, I needed to have an LLC and all that. But I had no idea how to deal with taxes or any of that kind of financial stuff. So I am a big fan of investing in people that can coach you and help you through the processes like this.

Tim Ulbrich: Agreed.

Blair Thielemier: I ended up — so after my first year in business, I wasn’t doing quarterly estimated taxes or anything like that. I ended up owing about $17,000 in taxes. And it was something that I wasn’t prepared for because I really had no idea how to calculate that. So whenever I say I made just about every mistake in the book, I mean, it’s true. But we were able to come through that and, you know, now I know and hopefully I can help you guys avoid some of these pickles like that. But that would be definitely a big one, which is investing in hiring either a coach or some kind of professional to help you through that. I think once you have a business, you’re past the TurboTax, Do-It-Yourself thing, for me anyway because I will say whenever something is not my strength. And taxes and all of that is definitely not my strength. So I think it’s part of that is, you know, investing in your business. I think you can start a business relatively cheaply, but I don’t think your goal should be to spend nothing. So a lot of times, we’ll spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on our pharmacy degrees and then after that, it’s like I’m not going to pay $50 to do that CE. You know? And it’s like, I think professional development is a huge part of being successful, and this is also going to be a topic you’re going to hear me talk a lot more about this year is professional, personal, career development and what does that look like in order to do it in a way that, like I said, you’re not adding skills in case you need them, you’re adding them when you need them.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Blair Thielemier: So as an entrepreneur, I value my time more than it costs to hire someone who is a professional in that space that can just come in and download into my brain, here’s everything you need to know. And if they can do it for me, even better.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And I think you’ve got to value your time and put a dollar amount to that. And that’s something that I am guessing like you and many other entrepreneurs struggled with at first, but I’m coming to appreciate more and more each and every year the value of depending on people that know exactly what they’re doing, they’re an expert in the space, and they can help accelerate business growth because it’s an ROI on your investment. So let’s talk about legacy for a minute. You know, I look at your vision statement, Blair, on your website, is powerful. It says, “In the next five years, helping hundreds of pharmacy businesses add millions of dollars in revenue and to serve them as an advocate for clinical pharmacy services.” And I think that it’s fair to say that the work that you’re doing today is going to be left behind for others to build upon and for your kids to admire and say, “Yes. That was my mom that did that.” So my question for you is, what do you want your legacy to be?

Blair Thielemier: Oh, I love that. Great question. So you know, it’s definitely — it is about my kids seeing me doing something that I’m passionate about, that I love, that I truly believe, this is my purpose is to bring together all this stuff that I’m interested in, present it to pharmacists as here is a viable financial model for really loving your career again. And you know, we’re being faced with a lot of challenges. You mentioned them earlier, just job market saturation and then AI coming in and maybe we won’t need to be doing the dispensing anymore. So then what are we going to do if not dispensing? We need to create these opportunities for ourselves, and a lot of people say, oh, we need provider status to do that. Well, you know, physicians have provider status, and they’re not getting reimbursed the way that they want to, so I’m pretty sure we’re not going to be reimbursed the way we want to, even if we did get provider status. So I think the opportunity there is to come up with unique things that maybe even exist in the market but that aren’t being done the way you would do them as a pharmacist like the genetic testing, like the health and wellness consulting where you’re counseling people on, oh, if they’re going to use CBD oil, make sure it’s not interacting with some of these other medicines or if they’re going to use this or that supplement or herbal medicine. And it’s a huge opportunity for pharmacists to get into the preventative medicine space, and so my legacy, I really, I want to bring about these ideas for new opportunities. But I think more importantly, I want to give you the skills that no matter what you’re doing, no matter what you’re selling, what business you’re in, you can feel confident in going out and marketing your services and selling them in a way that feels authentic. You know, that’s something I hear a lot of pharmacists say, “Well, I don’t want to feel like a salesperson. I don’t want to feel like sleazy, trying to push my product on people.” And that’s kind of why I said, well, first, before you sell your product to anybody else, you have to believe in it yourself.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Blair Thielemier: You have to have bought into it 100%. And I think that this thing that I have can solve your problem and then you present it like that. You know, here’s your problem, here’s what you’ve told me you need, here’s the solution that I’ve come up with that I think will help you achieve what you just told me your issue was. And then when you introduce your price point, it’s kind of like, well, you know — it should be a stretch, your price point should be a stretch for whatever so that they can see the value in it, but it should also be something that they’re like, yes, absolutely. I get what you’re saying. That makes sense. So giving pharmacists that business acumen, I guess, is really my ultimate goal so that whatever it is they’re selling, they can do that confidently and then they can grow their business confidently.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think there’s that compound effect where as you’re training and teaching other pharmacists, they’re going out there and impacting patient care lives in a way, in a far greater number and a way than you could ever do yourself. And I love watching that and how you’re inspiring others. And I would also add, I think part of legacy for me — and I think you share this from what I’ve been observing your journey — is the legacy of our children. And I sense a passion for you in teaching your children about entrepreneurship and business and probably at a young age, just the role modeling, but I think that’s something that I’m passionate about, my wife and I share that. And I’m hopeful that that’s something that we can collectively do and thinking about how do we teach and train the next generation, you know, the skills that maybe we didn’t get ourselves or didn’t feel like we received through our formal education. So a couple last questions here that I want to make sure we give our audience insight into. Starting a business — and I alluded to this earlier that we often see the glamour, we see the glory — but you and I both know that it is absolutely exhilarating, but it’s also hard and it’s a grind at the same time. And there are moments that you can feel overwhelmed, there’s moments that you can feel unfocused, there’s moments that you feel like are stressful. And you go through those times of excitement and obviously, you remember exactly why you’re doing what you’re doing. What do you do — what is your process to kind of bring yourself back to that reason of why you’re doing what you’re doing when you’re feeling overwhelmed or unfocused or you’ve lost that focus temporarily. What do you do to re-engage? How do you keep yourself motivated along the way?

Blair Thielemier: So I was thinking about this the other night. So I try to do a meditation almost every night, just to kind of clear my head and think about exactly what you just said, why it is I’m doing what I’m doing. And I’m a very self-motivated person, but I think it’s because I have sat down and I have put together these goals. Like you mentioned, you know, the vision statement on the website. I put that on there to remind myself and to remind others what is my ultimate goal. So do you have your goals written down? Do you know what you’re working towards? A lot of times — so I work with a lot of independent community pharmacies as well as independent consultants who want to go in physicians’ offices. But they will not have kind of a guiding goal. So take health and wellness, for instance, if your big goal is to become a health and wellness destination, you know, maybe some of these other programs, it’s OK to say, “No, I don’t think that’s right for my audience at this time.” And that’s how I do a lot in the academy now is looking at so is this right for my audience? Is this program going to help them move forward with their goals? And then ultimately, advance the profession of pharmacy and help them add millions of dollars of revenue to their businesses? So I think it really is about going back to those goals and staying focused. So in the beginning, it was hard. I mean, but I loved it. I would get up early Sunday mornings and stay up late at night after my daughter went to bed. And I truly enjoyed what I was doing and working on my business. Whatever you choose, make sure whatever business you choose to go into that you’re cool with talking about it all the time because I really feel like I could talk about MTM and entrepreneurship all the time and never run out of words and run out stuff to talk about. And that’s the fire and the passion that you need to be able to bring to your business in order to have the endurance because I mean, it is a long game. That’s why I tell people, don’t build a website unless you have a long-term plan to bring traffic to it. Or don’t start a podcast unless you have a long-term plan to continuously upload episodes.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that passion comes through in what you do. And I think it’s contagious and really allows the success that you’ve had and the academy members and drawing people to you. So before we talk about the academy and the virtual summit here to wrap up, how about a book and/or a podcast recommendation for our audience? Something that’s inspiring you, that you’re pulling from, that’s motivating you, that you think would be valuable to our community.

Blair Thielemier: Oh, so next up on my read list — I haven’t read it yet — is “Mindset” by Carol Dweck.

Tim Ulbrich: Heard of that.

Blair Thielemier: Yeah. So I’ve listened to her on a couple podcasts, and I really like what she’s doing. So mindset is a huge, huge issue for people. So one of the things that held me back in the beginning was I was afraid to one, to market myself as an expert, so to speak, in the field. And then two was I was worried what other people would think of me. I would put out a video, and instantly be like, should I take that down? You know? Because I was worried, what will my colleagues think? What will my husband’s friends think? What will all these people think? And you know, and occasionally, people would say to me, “Oh, I watched your video, but I didn’t understand what you were talking about.” And so, I would just kind of, “Oh yeah, you know, well it’s because it’s for pharmacists. You’re not my target audience,” obviously, but I think having the mindset of like I’m going to do this for me, whether or not anyone else is listening, that was really kind of the what I needed to hear in the very beginning, and I heard that from my business coaches and my mentors of saying, “You know what, just keep doing what you’re doing. You’re going in the right direction.” Even when other people were saying, “I don’t think pharmacists would pay for that. I don’t think they’re going to join your course. I don’t think they’re going to pay a monthly fee for business coaching from you.” And I still hear it. I still hear people say, “Oh, I think your course should be lower so students can join,” or “I think your course should be higher.”

Tim Ulbrich: They would be saying the same thing if it were a third of the price, right?

Blair Thielemier: Exactly. So it’s a lot of like just listening to yourself, and if you’re comfortable with it, I think just pick a direction, pick a number, and go with it. You can always change and reiterate later. But I think that was a big part. So the “Mindset” book by Carol Dweck I think if anyone wants to chat with me about it, I’m going to have lots of time for reading here coming up as we’re headed to South Africa, so it’s going to be a very long plane ride. So I’m getting my Audible and my podcasts cued up.

Tim Ulbrich: I look forward to reading it. Mindset is my personal mission for 2019 for all of the reasons that you mentioned. And I think similar to you, as I look back to my business journey and even just personal life, you know, whether it’s places stumbled, mistakes that I’ve made, if I wouldn’t have confidently taken the step to put myself out there, I would have never made those mistakes, which every one of those has been a learning opportunity, which has resulted in something else being better that I can bring better value to our community. So I think having the mindset around how you may go into certain situations, mistakes that you’ve made and looking at those as opportunities to continue to grow your business. So let’s finish up here, the Elevate Virtual Summit coming up May 8-12, 2019. Our listeners, I hope you’ll be there, great content planned, as Blair mentioned. You can get your free ticket by registering at ElevatePharmacySummit.com, and we’ll make sure to link to that in the show notes. And Blair, just for a minute, the Pharmapreneur Academy, I referenced that in our introduction, our listeners can go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/academy, and they can use the coupon code YFP50 to get $50 off their first month. But tell us a little bit more about what our audience can expect if they were to engage a little bit more in that academy.

Blair Thielemier: So the academy, as I mentioned, is the e-course I built based on our one-on-one coaching program. So I created the MTM consulting program as the base of the academy. Since then, I have continued to build on new trainings and new modules. We go from very beginner stuff like should I get an LLC? Where do I find liability insurance? You know, how do I cold-call my potential clients? OK, they said yes. Now they want me to implement annual wellness visits in a primary care clinic. What do I do next? Or OK, now I want to do cash-based genomic consulting. What should I do with that? So the e-course, it builds on itself, and it goes from the beginner stages up through much more advanced content. So it’s a self-paced e-course. You can log in, get instant access. If you use the coupon code YFP50, you’re going to get $50 off the first month. And so you can cancel that anytime. It is a recurring membership, but we don’t hold anyone hostage. So you come in, go through the e-course, use the forums. The forums is where, you know, a lot of our members say is their favorite part of the academy because they ask questions, they get feedback not only from me but from the other pharmacists in there, so we’ve got about 150 pharmacists that are in the academy. You know, it’s not like a forum if you’re part of one of your national organization’s forums that you ask a question in the forums, it may or may not get answered. Or you may not get the answer you were actually looking for. These forums are monitored every single day by me and my team, and you are guaranteed to get an answer from one of us. So that’s where we kind of do our daily group business coaching. And then we also have a monthly member call the last Tuesday of every month, it’s a live Zoom call, like a video conference call that everyone who’s a current academy member can jump on, sometimes we bring guest experts like you, Tim, in to talk about –

Tim Ulbrich: Looking forward to it.

Blair Thielemier: Yeah, to talk about like financial, getting your financial foundation under you or in January, we brought in a sales coach, the sales maven Nikki Rausch, so whatever it may be, we kind of sometimes bring in guest experts, sometimes, we just do a Q&A, sometimes, I’ll do a special training. It really depends on feedback from the academy members. And that’s something that I’m big on. I probably ask for feedback maybe too much, but I really want to continue to build and grow the academy, and I do that by listening to what our members are telling me that they need.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. So again, that’s YourFinancialPharmacist.com/academy. YFP community members can get $50 off their first month by using the code YFP50. Blair, this has been fantastic. I’ve enjoyed this, looking forward to collaborating in the future. And thank you so much for your time and coming on the show.

Blair Thielemier: Thank you for having me.

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YFP 085: How One Pharmacy Entrepreneur Is Solving the Drug Shortage Crisis

Posted on by yfpadmin

How One Pharmacy Entrepreneur is Solving the Drug Shortage Crisis

On this episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, Tim Ulbrich, YFP co-founder, interviews Dr. Patrick Yoder, co-founder and CEO of LogicStream Health. Tim asks Patrick about his journey as a pharmacy entrepreneur which led him to get his PharmD from the University of Iowa to starting as a clinical pharmacist at Lake Regional Health-System to serving as the Director then VP of Clinical Development and Informatics at Wolters Kluwer to being the Co-Founder and CEO of LogicStream Health since 2013.

About Today’s Guest

Patrick developed a passion for innovation reengineering bicycles to better suit the needs of childhood. He started his career in medical research, then as a Clinical Pharmacist and an Informatician. He developed experience leading innovative teams at Wolters Kluwer Health as the Vice President of Informatics and Clinical Development. There he spearheaded the creation of a solution that established the company as the recognized leader in the market within four years. He also led the informatics team at Hennepin County Medical Center before co-founding LogicStream Health. Patrick enjoys scuba diving, running and cycling in his time away from LogicStream Health.

About LogicStream Health

LogicStream Health is trusted by a community of high-performing healthcare providers across the United States. The company’s clinical process control and improvement software-as-a-service (SaaS) platform stands alone in its ability to help customers gain instant insights to improve vital clinical processes and patient care. As a result, customers reduce cost and improve outcomes. Also available is The Drug Shortage App from LogicStream Health™ that reduces risk to patients, controls medication spend and increases staff productivity as a result of the ongoing drug shortage epidemic. The LogicStream Health SaaS platform is ‘must-have’ technology enabling clinical teams to quickly improve clinical processes in near-real-time and is designed for rapid implementation and easy adoption by end-user clinicians, informaticists, data analysts and executive teams. LogicStream Health software today is supporting hundreds of hospitals on a scalable and sustainable technology platform to standardize processes and deliver highly reliable healthcare. For more information, please visit www.LogicStreamHealth.com.

Summary

On this episode, Tim Ulbrich dives into learning about Patrick Yoder’s entrepreneurial journey. When Patrick graduated from pharmacy school, there was a shortage of pharmacists. Patrick chose to become a clinical pharmacist which then led him into taking on more business roles in companies. He served as the Director and then Vice President of Clinical Development and Informatics at Wolters Kluwer.

In these roles, Patrick was motivated to use technology to change the way pharmacists work with electronic health records. He took risks to co-found LogicStream Health in 2013 and continued his business-oriented journey. He currently serves as the company’s CEO. In 2018, the Drug Shortage App from LogicStream Health had its debut. The Drug Shortage App from LogicStream Health aids to support pharmacists to increase their work flow while also increasing patient safety.

Patrick shares advice on starting an app, why serving in the community is important and also what should be done to expose more pharmacists to an entrepreneurial path in pharmacy school in this episode.

Mentioned on the Show

PolicyGenius
LogicStream Health™
Drug Shortage App from LogicStream Health™
YFP Facebook Group
Start: Punch Fear in the Face, Escape Average and Do Work That Matters by Jon Acuff
The 4-Hour Work Week: Escape 9-5, Live Anywhere, and Join the New Rich by Timothy Ferriss
Tribe of Mentors: Short Life Advice from the Best in the World by Timothy Ferriss
The Innovator’s Prescription: A Disruptive Solution for Health Care by Clayton M. Christensen
To Sell Is Human: The Surprising Truth About Moving Others by Daniel H. Pink
The Hard Thing About Hard Things: Building a Business When There Are No Easy Answers by Ben Horowitz
LogicStreaming Podcast

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Patrick, welcome to the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Appreciate you coming on.

Patrick Yoder: It’s great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I’ve been looking forward to this episode for some time as I shared a little bit before we hit record, learning some of your backstories as an entrepreneur, and I’m excited to get into that. And part of what I’m so excited about sharing with the YFP community is that they hear me talk often about the importance of entrepreneurship and lots of things going on in the pharmacy job market and things and to have a real, live example of somebody who has done this, came out with a pharmacy degree, had some clinical pharmacy experience and has now ventured into starting a company that obviously is growing. Look forward to hearing your story, picking your brain a little bit in terms of what makes you tick. So before we jump into the work that you’re doing with LogicStream, which is your company, and the recent launch that you had of the drug shortage app, which as I understand, actually debuted at the ASHP Midyear clinical meeting, I want to learn a little bit more about your journey into pharmacy school and the path that you took to get where you are today. So take us back to when you graduated from the University of Iowa. What were your career interests and goals at the time?

Patrick Yoder: Yeah, well, I mean, I think I graduated at a good time back in 2000s, early 2000s, there was a huge shortage of pharmacists. And I think while that was exciting and good, it was actually awful hard to figure out where to go. I think I had 10 different job offers. And I decided that I really wanted to do acute care stuff in hospitals, and so I really made that jump at that point and started to work on the clinical side. And then interestingly, EHRs came along quickly after that, which will tie into probably various different things as we go through our discussion today.

Tim Ulbrich: So you come out of pharmacy school, and as I understand it, you’re working in a clinical pharmacy specialist position. And then you took a jump into a director role and then a VP role at Walters Clure Health and then obviously that led up to the work that you’re now doing in starting LogicStream. So what was the catalyst for you making that transition from the clinical role to what you were doing at Walters Clure Health?

Patrick Yoder: Well, I think in general, there’s been a couple of jumps that I made. But I mean, that was the first one. And I remember that pretty specifically. I was working clinically in the ICU at a regional health center. And I even had this discussion with my parents, who you can imagine — and I was a few years into my career, and I said, “You know what, I think I’m going to jump to the corporate side of healthcare.” And they were kind of looked at me funny and said, “Why in the world did you go to pharmacy school if you wanted to be a business guy?” And I don’t know, I just, I think I’m kind of a calculated risk taker. And I think there was a real opportunity in that job, and I kind of felt like I could always keep my pharmacy skills up, although that’s actually a lot harder now than it used to be. But just really decided I wanted to take a look at that opportunity and really looked at it that way instead of a risk.

Tim Ulbrich: Did you — I’m curious — do you remember back in pharmacy school having some of those business interests? I mean, was that something that was always front of your mind? I mean, obviously you went into that clinical path right out but can you tie back now that you put yourself in a CEO role, can you tie it back to, yeah, you know, I really was mindset around the business component all along?

Patrick Yoder: Yeah. That actually really started with me as a kid. So my parents were entrepreneurs and started several businesses. And so the things that I was exposed to as a kid, talking about financial statements and employees and all that stuff around the dinner table. I later figured out, well, that’s just not normal. Most kids aren’t exposed to that kind of world. And so, a lot of the things that I actually thought were difficulties because I heard my parents like talking through some of this stuff, that really actually led me to a professional degree where some of the biggest things that I really had a desire to do more of after I had that professional degree. And I think there’s different ways to approach that. You certainly could do health system administration and pharmacy leadership and all of those angles as well. I just had this — for whatever reason, really liked to create things and ended up on a path that allowed me to do that.

Tim Ulbrich: So 2013 — I’m hitting fast track on your career just out of the sake of time here — but 2013, you founded LogicStream. Obviously, you currently serve as the CEO and co-founder of that. Tell us about the vision that you had for that company. Where did the idea come from? And obviously, with any business, you’re trying to solve a problem, right? So what business were you trying to solve in starting that company?

Patrick Yoder: Yeah, so I mean, just going back just a little bit, at Walters Clure, we were very much in the middle of the EHR adoption phase. So basically, everyone was buying Electronic Health Records, everyone was installing them and putting them in their health systems. And a lot of the products we built there, which I was on the kind of new product development team, and my group of folks did a lot of work in that area. And therefore, I spent a lot of time in the market, and so I was always thinking about, well, what’s next? What is going to be the next problem? And through that, really figured out that Electronic Health Record is actually just the beginning. All of the things that we were doing to put those in place were baseline. And we weren’t thinking at all about or not as much as we should have been thinking about how do we use this technology to actually change the way we work. And in fact, that’s really where LogicStream and the ideas originally came from is how do you not only have an EHR in place but really use it to help your clinicians do the right thing and do it more often that maybe they can remember on their own?

Tim Ulbrich: So obviously, that experience you had at Walters Clure gave you the foundation and sparked that idea, which then became LogicStream. And I think one of the questions I’m very interested in learning more about is your mindset around risk at the time. You obviously had a great job, and so you’re making this decision to start something new. And I think that is a factor that can prohibit and paralyze many pharmacists that may be thinking of an entrepreneurial idea. So what type of risk did you take on to leave a comfortable and successful career to start this company? And if you had fears at the time, how did you overcome any of those fears and overcome any of the self-limiting beliefs that you may have had about, you know, in reference to your parents earlier, that you’ve got a great career, and now all of a sudden, you’re going to jump out and do something on your own?

Patrick Yoder: Yeah, well, you think that conversation was challenging when I was a pharmacist going to the corporate world, you can imagine what it was like when I now have a family and a wife, and they look at me like, wait, you’re going to do what?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Patrick Yoder: What’s this story here? You know, but luckily, through my work at Clure, I had a lot of connections. And I really leveraged those to help soften that transition. So I actually went back to the care delivery side of the world for a short period of time to validate some of the ideas that I had about building a company or a product. And then also leveraged the relationships to do a lot of contracting and consulting work in the interim as well. And you know, I guess the real driver for me was that I could see that there was a better way and really wanted to play out that thought and test it and see if it was real. And that’s I think the balance. I mean, most entrepreneurs are generally risk-takers anyways. I think the smart thing to do is be pragmatic about that and understand the risk as much as you can. And certainly having a pharmacy degree is a really nice backstop, right? You can always jump back into that and have plenty of work to do.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I love what you said there. I mean, that resonates with me. And for many that are thinking of business ideas is that you’ve got a degree to fall back on. You know, many that are starting companies don’t, obviously. Many people can start, you know, a business while they’re obviously working or at least kind of begin to get that process going. And I really liked what you said about the validation process, right? So you had an idea and you went in and worked to validate some of that before you jumped in, obviously, to the beginnings of that company. So the drug shortage app — and we talked a little bit about this before we hit record — is obviously a big area that you’re working on now. Drug shortage app from LogicStream Health made its debut, as I understand it, at the 2018 ASHP Midyear Clinical Meeting in Anaheim, and I wish I would have known that before the meeting. I was actually there, so I wish I would have known that. I could have stopped by the booth and say hello. But tell us a little bit about that app and why this solution is so important to our profession and to healthcare?

Patrick Yoder: Yeah, well, I think for me personally, it’s really exciting because you know, we started this company and have a large number of hospital customers across the country. And we typically work in with nurses and physicians a lot on improving their processes. And so it’s really exciting for me to actually be able to launch more so into the pharmacy space in a very specific way. And the way we actually ended up here is we listened to our customers and what the pharmacists that were using our software tools, even before we launched the app, were saying about their biggest problems. And I think it really became apparent to us as a group that, you know, drug shortages are a huge problem. They basically disrupt the primary workflow of the pharmacist, so you can’t actually take an order or a prescription and create a safely administered drug. And that’s a huge problem, and it was basically sucking up a lot of their time trying to figure out how to use alternatives or really buy directly from manufacturers or whatever the case may be. And then it also has a huge safety component, which drug shortages and using different formulations and different drugs that aren’t common to a health system can actually lead to adverse drug events for patients, which is kind of near and dear to any healthcare person’s heart. So we’re really excited about the opportunity to help pharmacists in a very meaningful way.

Tim Ulbrich: So when you launched that at the Midyear meeting, I mean, was that a moment of celebration and culmination of hard work? Or are things just so busy and moving so quickly that you’re kind of always onto the next project or even to see obviously that through for the time being?

Patrick Yoder: Oh no, that’s absolutely the way it works. I mean, the team here puts in a tremendous amount of energy when we’re launching a new product. And you know, months ahead of time, you’re doing plenty of work and designing how all the screens work and how it actually gathers the data necessary to make it run, and so we had even prior to that, spent many, many hours with pharmacists on the phone, understanding the pain points of the whole problem. And so absolutely, it was definitely an event and something that the entire company wanted to hear more about, even during the show as it was going on, how well it was really fitting with the needs of pharmacists.

Tim Ulbrich: One of the common questions I get from people on different ideas is they always say, “I’d like to start an app to do this or that,” and you know, then the next follow-up question is, “What exactly goes into developing an app?” And not that we’re going to get in on that in this show, and obviously, we’re pharmacists, right? We’re not developers. But I think my question to you is what advice would you have for somebody in terms of where do you start? I mean, is this something that you have to go out and raise a bunch of money and capital to get some backing to do? Or where does somebody start with an idea of an app for whatever problem that they’re trying to solve?

Patrick Yoder: I would highly recommend not going out and getting a bunch of capital to start with. That’s not what we did. And in fact, most of the thing that you need to do first is actually just start. And that sounds kind of strange, but it is really the way it works because as soon as you start, you put yourself on a path to learn a whole lot more about the problem than you understand today. And in fact, that is actually where all of your intellectual property comes from that then you can use to raise capital in much better scenarios than Day 1. So just start, and be ready for some sleepless nights and maybe a lot of them. And you’ll learn very quickly if it’s a good fit or not. And don’t be scared of the fact that it’s not because there actually will likely be a whole bunch of things around it that are a really good fit in the marketplace, and then you’ll have to choose which one you want to pursue, which is actually a good problem to have but also a very difficult decision.

Tim Ulbrich: I love what you said there. I actually just posted recently on our Facebook group, one of my favorite books that I like to reference a lot is actually called “Start” by Jon Eckhoff. I don’t know if you’ve read it before, but it was really instrumental for me when I was starting Your Financial Pharmacist back in 2015 that when you have I think a new idea, and obviously what we’ve been working on isn’t the scale of what you’re doing over at LogicStream, but there’s so many fears and limiting beliefs that come into play. And well, I don’t know how to do x or what about setting up the structure of the organization? Or where’s the money going to come from? Or what about the website? What about the accounting? The legal? All of these things. And I think the thing I look back at that allowed us to get going was just taking the first step, right? Just starting. And you know, as I look back, it wasn’t pretty. It wasn’t how I would do it today, but every one of those steps leads to another learning moment. And you don’t know what you’re fully stepping into until you actually embrace that step. And I’m guessing you felt a little bit of that back in 2013 and even as you entered into the app development and new products or services, you know, I’m sure there’s some of that as well. So I think there’s great wisdom in there that I hope our listeners heard in what you just said there. One of the things, Patrick, that stood out to me as I was looking at LogicStream’s website is I think front and center on your homepage or maybe just scrolling down a little bit on your homepage, I noticed that your company has been active even already in the New Year with volunteering with the food group in New Hope, Minnesota. And we talk a lot about here the importance of philanthropic efforts as a part of a financial plan and how that really provides perspective. And to me, as I saw this, this really was an indicator of the value that you see as your company and the role it plays in philanthropic activities and in the community and in serving in the community. So why do you feel as the CEO that it’s important for your company and your employees to be a part of serving and giving in the community?

Patrick Yoder: Yeah, well, it’s a huge piece and sort of team-building perspective, it helps — you know, having your team do something together that they kind of cross different areas of the company and they maybe don’t work together every day actually really helps build relationships and a real team. But you know, I think at the core, entrepreneurs and CEOs — and this may sound a little different than what you typically hear — so while our jobs are to create things and make money, we actually see that as actually a service to the world around us. So and it’s funny, one of my mentors taught me this. You know, if you think about something like LogicStream and we have 35 or so employees right now, those jobs didn’t exist without actually building the company and keeping to push it forward. And so even just those jobs and the value and the pay that we put into those people’s lives are in service, in some ways. And so we kind of just carry that out, I think, as a company across the board. And it is important for sure. And as we get larger, it becomes I think even more important and really a critical piece of how a company actually makes an even bigger impact in the world around them.

Tim Ulbrich: So along the lines, one of the things that sticks out to me that I alluded to a little bit earlier is I feel like pharmacists often by nature are fairly risk-averse. And I think part of that is maybe driven by personality but also in part because of, you know, you may graduate at 24-25 years old, and you’ve got a six-figure salary that’s facing you, and it may be hard to say no to that if you have $150,000 or $200,000 of student loan debt and other variables that are in there as well. But I think we as a profession are at a point where we need to create and innovate and stimulate and make some of these opportunities and reinvent how we have thought about practice and thought of different things. So I’m curious from your standpoint of somebody who graduated with a PharmD and now somebody being a CEO and an entrepreneur, what can we be doing or what should we be doing in pharmacy education to help provide some of these principles, whether it’s entrepreneurship or maybe even more intrepreneurship of those that aren’t going to go start their own company but need to be thinking in an entrepreneurial way inside of the organizations in which they operate?

Patrick Yoder: That’s an interesting question. And I think maybe I’ll answer it this way. So I’ll go back to my training when I was at the University of Iowa. You know, I don’t think we were very exposed to pharmacists that took unique paths. So we certainly were exposed to pharmacists that build their clinical practice in ambulatory care or some specialty pharmacy area, but never — I mean, I don’t remember ever being exposed to a pharmacist that is a technologist and started a technology company or some device. I mean, there’s probably endless examples of this. And that’s probably the first step, just opening up that a little bit so students can see, well, gees, there actually is a huge opportunity out here. And in fact, I think going back to your risk question, the whole fact that you have a professional degree — and I kind of get the loan stuff that goes with it, I’m still paying for mine, by the way.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Patrick Yoder: It’s an opportunity. I mean, I really see it as an opportunity because you have that backstop that other people don’t have because of that degree and the time that you put in building that clinical knowledge. And in fact, I think in some ways, it makes you more effective in actually finding good solutions to the potential problems too. So it’s an opportunity, I think.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I agree. I think exposure in the PharmD curricula is huge. I hope your alma mater is taking advantage of you. But even just planting the seeds, right? I mean, I think that if they can hear from somebody — and it may not be an area they’re necessarily interested in, but just to know that, you know, there’s different opportunities that are out there. I typically see there’s a mindset of I either can go into community-based pharmacy practice, or I can go into residency training. You know, that’s kind of the two trains of thought. And that may be where somebody starts or maybe not, but just to even begin to plant the seeds of there are different opportunities in which your degree can open doors and to get people thinking about those. So one of my questions for you is obviously, as somebody who is I’m assuming extremely busy and you’re trying to balance family and prioritizing that as well and making sure you’re serving your employees and the company and the vision you have, what do you do for fun? I mean, how do you keep yourself from burning out? What are your strategies?
Patrick Yoder: That’s a great question. You know, I actually think that — and I am pretty busy. I spend an awful lot of time working on the company and, to some extent, in the company as well. And I think about burnout more about as a mindshare problem, and so if you can’t ever get away from, you know, applying your thoughts and mental energy towards the business, that’s actually I think what burns you out. So if you do that non-stop forever, you’re not going to — you’re going to burnout. Whereas if you just can create some time — and it doesn’t even have to be in big chunks — but some time throughout the week where you’re not spending your mental energy on that, that really helps keep you balanced. And then I think the other thing you always have to really be very cognizant of is your family, right? So just because I’m an entrepreneur doesn’t mean that my wife is, doesn’t mean that my kids will be, so you have to understand probably the level of commitment and energy that you’re actually putting into the business and take time away to just spend with them. And it actually doesn’t have to be as complicated as it sounds. Sometimes it’s a conversation over a coffee.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, absolutely. Good stuff. I want to finish out with an idea that I’m trying for the first time, I’m stealing actually from Tim Ferriss, author of “The Four-Hour Work Week,” widely known for his podcast. I started reading his book called “The Triumph of Mentors,” which we’ll link to in the show notes. And in there, he essentially interviews a lot of people with some questions to really pry into their brain and how do they operate and what do they think and how might people who are interested in some of these ideas begin to think about further developing themselves. And I think what I love about these questions is that it’s going to give myself, selfishly, and our listeners some insight into how successful entrepreneurs and people doing things like you’re doing are thinking and the behaviors and habits that contribute to success. So I’m going to rapid-fire a few questions, and then we’ll wrap up with some more information about where people can learn about what you’re doing. So let’s start, Patrick, with if you’re a reader? I’m assuming you are. It seems like most entrepreneurs are. But what are one, two or three books that you feel like have really greatly influenced your life and the way in which you think?

Patrick Yoder: Oh yeah, there’s a long list, so I’ll pick out what I think are probably some of the most pivotal ones. And I actually read books that are, I don’t know, I find a lot of value in their contextual. So starting the company, one of the big ones that I absolutely loved was “The Innovator’s Prescription,” Clayton Christensen’s book. He actually wrote a whole series of them. I’ve actually read all of them, but that book is just — it helped me kind of frame up how to really think about the dilemmas of innovation inside a big company and then what it means for an entrepreneur. I really like a lot of Daniel Pink’s stuff, you know, “Drive,” “To Sell is Human,” all of those typical things that you run into pretty quickly in a company. It’s like basically how do you get people to buy the stuff that you’ve built that’s really cool, right? And then my favorite book, which is actually almost like a textbook — so mine’s all marked up and I have little tabs on the pages — is Ben Horowitz’s book, “The Hard Thing About Hard Things.” And it’s —

Tim Ulbrich: Ah, I’ve never heard of it. Tell me more.

Patrick Yoder: It’s a fantastic book. I mean, it’s basically — so Ben Horowitz is a venture capitalist who’s also started companies and actually built them into kind of dot com era. It’s a terrific story, but it has — it’s just loads of great information about how he dealt with the difficulties of running an early-stage company and building it and venture funding and all that stuff. And I go back to it a lot and basically read his story because it’s very contextual and real. I mean, you can tell that he was living it. So it’s really a fantastic, fantastic book.

Tim Ulbrich: Great recommendation. We’ll link to those in the show notes. And I’ll be ordering those from the library soon. So thank you for the recommendations. So let’s talk about for a moment failure. Can you point back to a moment as you were starting up LogicStream or even maybe more recently with the app of something that you would say is a moment of a favorite failure? Something that you look back and say that in the moment, it may have been painful, but it’s really set me up for success in the future.

Patrick Yoder: Oh man, there’s probably some yesterday. I think that one of the key things that you’ll probably learn from talking to people like me, I would imagine, is the thought of failure is actually pretty different. So — and I tell my kids this all the time, and the first time I told them, they kind of looked at me weird and I bet their teachers probably hate me. But if you don’t fail, you actually can’t learn.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Patrick Yoder: And so if you look at failure that way, you actually just try to do it faster, as fast as you can because in a company like ours, the faster you can learn, and the faster you can adjust to those learnings is your competitive edge. You know, you’re not going to win against Amazon by raising more money. You’re just not going to win that way. And so if you have that context about failure, it just totally changes the way you actually think about them. And I’m guessing in some ways, it actually changes your risk aversion towards them as well, towards failures.

Tim Ulbrich: I love that. I read recently something from Seth Godin. I’m drawing a blank on what it was, if it was a blog or one of his books, where he talked about exactly what you said and really trying to not avoid failure but where it’s happening, accelerate the process and minimize the damage.

Patrick Yoder: That’s probably true.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. But that it’s so essential, and I think to your point about it changes the risk aversion that I think can happen along the process way. Along the way. So what advice would you have, you know, lots of smart, driven pharmacy students that are listening, about how to enter the “real world.” What are some words of wisdom that you would have for them as they’re entering somewhat of a chaotic time in our profession and in healthcare at large?

Patrick Yoder: Yeah, I mean, I think that it’s — so I would actually recommend against just jumping straight to building companies. I think there is some significant learning that can happen very, very fast when you actually go out there and do the real work of pharmacists and learn how health systems are actually operating today. And then bring that to the table as part of your thought process. And then find people who have done this. I think that probably the interesting thing that most people may not know is that people like me, so I actually have a coach. I have a CEO mentor that has done this multiple times over, and I ask him questions all the time about how did you do this? What did you do about that? And it’s so helpful to have those kind of people around you. Even in my team, our CFO has done this multiple times over. Those kind of resources are just incredible to have because they really help you up your wisdom game, which you only get from experience. And so you know, kind of lean into those people that likely are smarter than you. But just be aware that they’re really trying to help you, and that’s a key part of it for sure.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I love — just to piggyback on that — investing in the areas of your life a coach and a mentor that are most important to you. And I love that as a word of wisdom. So Patrick, my understanding, you actually host a podcast as well, LogicStream, to conduct interviews with healthcare leaders discussing trends and issues that affect healthcare leadership and clinicians, innovations in healthcare, IT and more. So beyond that podcast, which certainly our listeners can find and we’ll reference in the show notes, where can our listeners go to learn more about you and more about LogicStream?

Patrick Yoder: Yeah, I mean, the best place to go is our website, so LogicStreamHealth.com. There’s an awful lot of content out there, not only from me but from other people in our company as well as some of our customers. So certainly head out there and take a look, and if you have any questions for me, I’m always open to discussing interesting and exciting ideas with folks.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. So as we wrap up this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, I want to give a special thanks to Patrick and their team at LogicStream that helped us get ready for this interview. Obviously, incredibly busy and for him to give us his time, I know is something that has left an impact on me. And I’m excited to be able to share this with the community. We’ll link to all of the things that we talked about in the show notes. And as always, we appreciate you as the YFP community joining us for this week’s episode of the podcast. And as always, if you liked what you heard, please leave us a review in iTunes or wherever you get your podcast each and every week. Have a great rest of your week.

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