Tag: pharmacist job outlook for the future

Alex Barker, CEO and Founder of The Happy PharmD returns to break down trends in the pharmacy job market.

Episode Summary

In this episode, we welcome back Alex Barker, PharmD, Founder and CEO of The Happy PharmD. Alex shares an update on trends in the pharmacy job market, including his outlook on the trajectory of the profession, projecting into the landscape of 2024 and beyond. He shares his thoughts on the #pharmageddon movement, with recent walkouts and efforts to unionize making headlines. He also breaks down a recent survey he posed on LinkedIn that shows the desire for more remote work opportunities and more pharmaceutical industry roles.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Alex Barker is the CEO and Founder of The Happy Pharm D, a nationwide coaching firm guiding pharmacists to inspiring careers and more fulfilling lives. Alex is an accomplished public speaker, a published author and teacher. Since 2017, his coaching program and career development seminars have guided over 2,000 pharmacists into new jobs and roles they love. His book Indispensable: A prescription for a fulfilling pharmacy career, has motivated countless pharmacists to love pharmacy again. Alex is a husband and the proud father of two daughters. He loves drinking coffee and eating good guacamole (though not at the same time). When he isn’t working, which happens occasionally, he plays Nintendo, Dungeon & Dragons, and reads comics.

Key Points From the Episode

• Pharmacy job market trends with Alex Barker. [0:00]
• Pharmacist shortages and dissatisfaction. [4:32]
• Pharmacy industry changes and the impact of walkouts. [8:49]
• The impact of AI on the pharmacy profession. [13:20]
• Career paths and professional identity in pharmacy. [20:01]
• Remote work opportunities for pharmacists. [24:57]
• Industry trends and career shifts in pharmaceuticals. [30:36]
• Pharmacist career paths and industry perception. [35:32]
• Pharmacy profession’s future in 10 years. [40:36]
• Pharmacy industry trends and predictions. [46:19]
• Pharmacy career development and job opportunities. [52:17]

Episode Highlights

But the future of pharmacy cannot be product-only related anymore. It can’t just be about medicine. Because the opportunity is just not there. So my hope is that for anyone in one of those positions, whether in hospital or in community, you’re thinking ahead and looking to the problems of the business, what they currently have. And hopefully getting super curious about how you can solve these problems.” – Alex Barker [17:11]

“I think it reflects our professional identity, we love A to Z plans, right? We want it all laid out. We want to know what is the right thing to do to be a pharmacist practicing at the height of our license. And once we have that plan, then we know that we just, we just got to stick to it. And we have been trained and programmed through our education system to I mean, just really just do that. From kindergarten to the last day of pharmacy school, we were told exactly what we needed to do. And then we get out into the real world and realize that it never operates this way.” – Alex Barker [20:38]

“And I was like, man, what, what is the message we’re sending to our pharmacists that like, you’ve got such a narrow skill, there’s nothing else that you can do with it. I mean, there’s, there’s so much – from teaching to leading to being a manager. And I mean, practically any sector, because we’re all organizationally minded. I could go on and on about the different jobs that we could do, even outside of pharmacy. But there’s so much opportunity out there. But the narrow-minded nature of looking at what you can do, I think prohibits people from seeing jobs that they could actually have a lot of fun doing.” – Alex Barker [26:07]

“But we need to influence the public much differently about who we are and what we’re capable of. Because until the public gets it, they’re not going to go along with this idea of oh, I need to schedule an appointment with a pharmacist and I need to pay a pharmacist to do something for me. When for decades, if not well over a century or two, it’s been free to talk to us. You can’t just undo that, because we now have a doctorate. It is going to take decades, if not centuries, to get people to see that we’re different.” -Alex Barker [41:06]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

• The Happy PharmD 
• Alex Barker on LinkedIn
• The War On Normal People by Andrew Yang
• Subscribe to the YFP Newsletter

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

Tim Ulbrich  00:00

Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I welcome back Alex Barker, the founder and CEO of the Happy PharmD to talk all things pharmacy job market, including his outlook for 2024 and beyond. We discussed Alex’s take on Pharmageddeon the recent walkouts and the efforts of pharmacists to unionize, the desire and shift that he seen for pharmacists wanting remote work, the transition that’s happening to pharmaceutical industry roles, and Alex’s vision for the profession of pharmacy 10 plus years into the future. Alright we got a good one for you this week. Let’s jump into my interview with Alex Barker, the founder and CEO of the Happy PharmD. 

[START OF EPISODE]

Tim Ulbrich  00:48

Alex, welcome back to the show.

Alex Barker  00:50

Thanks for having me, Tim. It’s a pleasure.

Tim Ulbrich  00:52

So you’ve been on several times. I suspect most of our listeners know who you are. But just in case, give us a quick background and who is Alex Barker? And what is the Happy PharmD.

Alex Barker  01:03

So I created the Happy PharmD in 2017 to help pharmacists get careers and jobs that they would actually enjoy. I was on that pursuit myself. I was a burned out pharmacist for a few years as a clinical pharmacist. Didn’t enjoy it all what I did spent five years trying to figure out that process of creating a job that I would love. And here I am doing it and now helping now over I want to say it’s like 2400 pharmacists that have gone through at least one of our programs, I’ve taken one of our classes. And we’ve learned a lot about what pharmacists want and what they don’t want. And I’m excited to share some of those insights with you today on the podcast.

Tim Ulbrich  01:47

So fun fact, Alex, I don’t know if we shared this on the podcast before but that was one of your early early clients. 

Alex Barker  01:53

You were!

Tim Ulbrich  01:54

This would have been way, way back when in 2016? 2017? At the time, Tim Church and I were writing the book Seven Figure Pharmacist. 

Alex Barker  02:03

Yep.

Tim Ulbrich  02:03

We were just launching the brand, the community trying to figure out what was the next step of kind of moving that from a hobby to a side hustle to a business. And that was fun, and you provided tremendous value to me, and to hear that you’ve helped over 2000 people, your team has helped over 2000 people, and many more to come. That’s legacy stuff. That’s pretty cool. So congrats to you and the team at the Happy PharmD. That’s really awesome.

Alex Barker  02:28

Thanks. Yeah, it feels good. At first, it was just about helping people and it became more about families and changing the profession. And to me, that’s what’s exciting. You know, a lot of the pharmacists that come to us are from hospital and community typically, that’s where the majority of the jobs are. And that’s where a lot of people are burned out or tired or just have low, you know, job satisfaction. And getting them into stuff that they actually enjoy frees them up, they get to be present with their families more, they get to go to the soccer game, they get to pick them up from school. I mean, you’re doing that now, right in your business, you know that there’s, there’s nothing better than enjoying your work and living the life that you want to live. So it’s a privilege that I get to do it.

Tim Ulbrich  03:20

I love I always share people’s are thinking about starting business or business ideas when you can find that intersection between a business that is solving a problem that people are willing to pay for. And it aligns with something that you’re passionate about. And it’s adding value and is adding transformation. That’s a really sweet spot said it doesn’t mean it’s gonna be easy, but it’s a sweet spot to sit in. So I’m excited. I really wanted to talk about career trends in our profession, maybe for obvious reasons. There’s a lot going on out there. And we’re gonna dabble in several different topics. But this is a topic I’ve been interested in throughout my career. I’ve done career development in previous roles, but you are the expert, your team are the experts when it comes to career development, career transitions, career trends that are happening inside of a profession. And so I wanted to pick your brain on what the heck is going on right now. What’s your take on? You know, some of the hot topics in our profession? Where do you see things going? Not only in 2024, but I’m also gonna ask you to project out a little bit further than that. And you know, where do we see things going with a lot of the disruption and the change that we have come in, but it’s I graduated 2008 And that wasn’t that long ago, but a lot has changed in a very short period of time. 

Alex Barker  03:52

Yeah, back then. It was six figures in a car. Right? That was the thing. It was just about ending around 2008.

Tim Ulbrich  04:39

Uh, it was still there. I mean, there were there was six figures and a car I would say for a couple years. Probably getting towards the end of that I remember the the line that kept going around our class. There were rumors of a million dollar contract out in Alaska for three years with one of the chains. I don’t know if that was true or not. But that was kind of there right. That was a day and age that we were in. And, and that was a day and age when it was a, Hey, don’t worry about your student loan debt, like it’ll just take care of itself. So thankfully, we’ve made some dents in that. But I want to talk about first, you know, the Pharmageddon that has been coined recently, the recent walkouts that I think everyone is realized not only internally through people that have been cheering, but that’s made national news outlets, CNN, NPR, NBC, and so forth, and some recent efforts and announcements around unionizing, which isn’t a new effort, per se, but it’s a rejuvenated one. And from the individual that does this work in and out who follows these trends, who runs your own data and looks at the workforce, what do you make of this? Is it? Is it a new era that we’re heading into? Is it a reaction to something that’s brewing for a long time? And are we actually going to see change that comes out of this? Or is it going to be more of the status quo going forward?

Alex Barker  06:03

All great questions. And I’m, I’m so glad that I get to be recorded, so I can be on the record, because then I can six months from now, I’m gonna I can look back and say where what I was wrong about. So I think you and I know that a lot of these complaints be that were sourced from the walkout. I mean, we’ve known about them for years. Every pharmacist kind of knows that a lot of the sources of a lot of our problems, where they exist, where they are, we don’t need to go into them. But they exist. And I think this was a kind of like a reaction of the straw that broke the camel’s back. Right, we just got through the pandemic. And arguably, the stress then was potentially maybe higher than it is right now. I think we’re seeing a gestalt, which is one of my favorite German words, of a problem that is so complex, and it involves multiple things. The one of the factors that I think is newer is the this new generation of pharmacists. This new generation of pharmacists is different than everyone before it, because they are actively refusing to take the majority of jobs that are being offered right now. And from big business perspectives, that’s they say that there’s a shortage of pharmacists right now. And they they attribute that to the response of like, okay, well, we’re just not able to find pharmacists to fill, like basic positions that we’ve had open for years. But the truth is, is that there are more pharmacists than what the market needs right now, just from looking at labor supply and economics. But they’re not willing to take these jobs that are out there. And we’re also seeing, and I think you’ve heard this rumor as well, that more and more pharmacy residents are just straight up quitting their residency programs. I just spoke to one last week, who just had a gut feeling this wasn’t for her, this isn’t what she wanted. And while I don’t know if ASHP is reporting that data or are talking about the residency, quit rate, everyone is acknowledging that like this is getting higher and higher.

Tim Ulbrich  08:32

So which, which in our day and age, Alex, and we’re dating ourselves a little bit, like that was a hard, you do not do that ever, or, you know, professional consequences. And so that’s an interesting, I don’t know that the data and I don’t know how that is or is not reported. But that doesn’t surprise me. 

Alex Barker  08:52

No. 

Tim Ulbrich  08:52

And it’ll be interesting to watch that trend if it continues.

Alex Barker  08:57

What I’m looking at I know that I’m heavily biased towards like generation and thinking about the next workforce that is coming in. There’s obviously a lot of work environment issues, there’s a lot of reasons why the walkouts have been influenced by the decisions that a lot of these I mean, let’s be honest, it’s it’s just the retail chains that this is being the focus of, you know, the big ones. But generationally, this new generation that’s coming into the workforce is poised to change things. Not to deviate too much on a topic that isn’t related at all to pharmacy. But anthropology has documented research to show that generations follow a pattern. And this new generation that is coming up in into entering into the workforce is the one to change things. We are going through a period of change that is similar to the time period of the Great Depression and World War Two. The greatest generation is what they were called. And they lived in a world of turmoil, of uncertainty, and things that I hope that we’re not going to repeat in today’s age. But that generation is the same generation that’s coming into the workforce. So my one of my predictions is that the health care system is not sustainable. It will change. It has to change. But how it’s going to is, I mean, totally up for debate. But the system has a lot of cracks. And I think the walkouts is just one of those symptoms, right? It’s poised for change and reform. Now, it’s going to be up to whether or not the powers that be listen, to make those changes happen.

Tim Ulbrich  11:05

I think a couple of the trends that I’m watching, and again, just the day and age that we live in, I’ve been in some meetings recently, where there’s been individuals at a fairly high level, at a chain level talking about the you know, the response to this, and what’s involved in this. And one of the “aha” is I had through those conversations is that, you know, if you think about the groups that are walking out, and who are, you know, able to have some of these momentum around the Pharmageddeon, they can mobilize quickly, or they can mobilize quickly in the messaging, they can mobilize quickly and getting the word out there. And for anyone who’s been in a management leadership role, you know, that you can’t necessarily mobilize quickly when it comes to getting press releases out, getting information out in a way that, you know, perhaps reaches people where you want it to reach and is set in a way that you want to be said without a lot of the guardrails around it. And that’s an interesting dynamic to watch right now of like, who’s really controlling the communication streams? And I think that’s gonna be an interesting one to follow. Because, you, Alex, you had a post, you had a poll on LinkedIn recently, where you asked people about the impact of the walkout, you had over 600 votes. 45% responded, that they didn’t think the walkouts were going to have any change on the industry. 40% responded, they thought eventually would change the industry. So depending on if you’re half glass full or not person, you can look at that one way or the other. But my question is, like, Where? Where does this go? Right? Because when you think about the book that always comes to mind is former presidential candidate Andrew Yang wrote a book called The War on Normal People, several years ago, and he talked about the impact or potential impact of autonomous driving on truck drivers. And I remember hearing it at the time and thinking, Wow, what a good example, and this was, you know, five, six years ago, I think I read that what a good example, for us to be thinking about pharmacy. And the picture he paints is, you know, a cohort, a workforce, largely middle aged men. For the most part, some of them may have previous degrees or training, many do not 1520 years into the career. And let’s imagine a scenario where all of a sudden, well, those jobs are replaced by technology. Now, there’s been a lot of developments since then autonomous driving, and you know, what’s, what’s the trajectory? How fast is that going to go? But it’s a really good exercise for us to think about as well in pharmacy. If we think about community retail chain pharmacy, if we fast forward 10, 15, 20 years, the pathway of automation and technology is there. Now, we may not like it or want to hear that outcome. We have state boards of pharmacies and regulatory bodies that I think are potentially going to slow that disruption. But it feels like it’s a matter of it’s going to happen. It’s just a matter of when is it 10 years, eight years, seven years, six years, three years. And so when we’re talking about 50% of the workforce, you know, the work you do and coaching people through career transitions, we potentially have a huge chunk of the workforce that we need to be thinking about redeployment into other fields. And does that come quick? Or is that more of a slow off ramp? Or am I being dramatic?

Alex Barker  14:16

What comes to mind is the entire horse industry, like in 1914, which I think is like the year before the Henry Ford model came out. And then in a matter of two years, an entire industry fell apart. There wasn’t a need for blacksmiths. There weren’t any for stables. There weren’t a need for breeders, as many veterinarians. I mean, tons of people’s lives were impacted in a matter of just a couple of years. Because we innovated on technology and we created something more consumer. Beneficial, right? The car. When I think about technology, innovating. I look back to that 1999 congressional statement talking about the shortage of pharmacists that was going to happen, which never happened. There was never a shortage of pharmacists. And there was no real indication. According to actually one book that analyzed this prediction, there was really no significant signs that indicated that that was ever going to happen. And also, they didn’t equate for the changes in technology that was going to happen in the early, you know, 20s, or 2000s. So, when I think about what’s going to happen, AI, in the huge boom that we’re going through right now, I think it’s really similar to like the dot com boom and bust that happened in the early 2000s. When I think about the core aspects of pharmacy, it’s the human element that has always been present. And for the things that are more mundane, that can be handled technology by technology, I think those will be replaced. How do we redeploy those people? I think it involves learning new skills and building new models. You know, you and I talked a little bit before this that like, what does the future look like in pharmacy, and what do I hope for. My hope is, is that we figure out who we are. My hope is, is that the associations band together instead of vie separately, and really try to create a unified, professional identity about who we are, and what we do, and elevate and showcase those pharmacists that are doing those practices and leading the way forward. Because the dispensing model is done, it’s been done for a while. And there’s really not a lot of innovation happening there. There are some really cool players in the independent space that are doing innovative things with moreso services, clinical services. But the future of pharmacy cannot be product only related anymore. It can’t just be about medicine. Because the opportunity in the states is just not there. So my hope is is that for anyone in one of those positions, whether is hospital or in community, you’re thinking ahead and looking to the problems of the business, what they currently have. And hopefully getting super curious about how you can solve these problems. You don’t have to start a business. You know, Tim and I are just entrepreneur fanatics. We love talking about it. But you can figure out problems in your current organization. And that’s really how to create an indispensable career. It’s just focus on those problems, get super curious about them, try to fix them. And that’s how, that’s how job opportunities happen. Because I mean, just one thing about AI, you know, that created a brand new industry out of thin air. Chat GPT revolutionized everyone’s access to AI, and created so many jobs. And I don’t see a whole lot of people in pharmacy going down that route. It is totally doable. It’s totally possible. In fact, that pharmacist I mentioned earlier, who quit her residency is doing just that she is now going into the AI and startup route and utilizing her pharmacy knowledge. So it’s not impossible, it can create new jobs, but it’s going to eliminate ones that the market really no longer values. 

Tim Ulbrich  18:51

Yeah, and this, you know, what you’re sharing is obviously so deeply connected to the work that we do at YFP, because for someone to have the capacity to go explore other opportunities, even if that’s on the back of them staying with their current employer. Let’s say we know the train, we know where the train’s going. But I’m gonna ride that train and kind of buy myself some time to be curious and go explore these other things. Having the financial plan and the foundation in place to allow yourself to be curious. Right, I often will say is if someone doesn’t have their financial house in order, you will suffocate curiosity. And it doesn’t have to be to your point. It doesn’t have to be a business. And actually, in the vast majority of the cases, if we’re talking about the numbers we’re talking about, we have over 330,000 pharmacists, in our profession, half of them work in the space that is tied in some way to a product, if we’re talking about any percentage of that being redeployed, it’s not going to be a big dent, that’s going to be entrepreneurship. It’s going to be what you’re talking about. It’s going to be people that are identifying opportunities, you know, within organizations that maybe are in the Department of Pharmacy, maybe they’re not and this is like any other profession any their career direct trajectory. For the most part, obviously, there’s some examples where it’s a very linear path. But for many of us that graduated, you know, I graduated at 24 with a 06 doctorate program, I was put on a one way linear path. And we get stuck thinking on that pathway. And when you talk with people that, you know, maybe they graduated with an undergraduate psychology degree or a business degree, and then they took one job, and then it took another job and another job and they skill stack over time. Right. But you can’t say draw a clean line of experiences, like we want to envision in pharmacy. And I think that’s a, that’s a scary thing to think about.

Alex Barker  20:38

I think it reflects our professional identity, we love A to Z plans, right? We want it all laid out. We want to know what is the right thing to do to be a pharmacist practicing at the height of our license. And once we have that plan, then we know that we just, we just got to stick to it. And we have been trained and programmed through our education system to I mean, just really just do that. From kindergarten to last day of pharmacy school, we were told exactly what we need to do. And then we get out into the real world and realize that it never operates this way. Maybe Only in rare circumstances or going into a major corporation, do you see the ladder before you. But in pharmacy, the ladder is really short. Most people do not go up the corporate ladder, save maybe in pharma. But it’s all just about well, get your degree, pass your boards. Go get a job. Yeah. And then that’s it. Yeah. And I think you the other aspect, you know, something you mentioned is getting into that track. I think about it’s who you’re surrounding yourself with.

Tim Ulbrich  21:52

I was just thinking the same thing. 

Alex Barker  21:54

Yeah. I was gonna ask you, you know, once you entered into the workforce, did you kind of feel like you, you came out of school, maybe like really excited, right, I finally have a job, I’m gonna get paid to do this thing. And, like, there’s excitement to both learn and practice. And then you look at everyone around you, and no one else feels that way. Everyone else is like, it’s Monday, you know? What you do this weekend? Like, there’s just no passion there. At least that was my experience. And I think if that’s who you surround yourself with, that’s who you end up becoming? Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich  22:38

And to that point it, it can become an echo chamber, you know, you talked about the short ladder, like, you know, this is true in any any part of life, we’re talking professional here, you know, this is true in your financial life and in business and your pursuit of physical wellness, and in your marriage, anything like, you know, are we being stretched and challenged? And are we being curious, right to your point, I love that word, curiosity. And if, if we’re in an echo chamber of, you know, our department, where everyone’s thinking and looking at the same short ladder, well that’s the only ladder we know? And you start to put yourself in situations where you realize, wow, like, she did something really cool. And I’m thinking about your community, Alex, and the Happy PharmD like, so and so you know, had this opportunity. And then they went here, and they did this and this and they realize it’s about the skill stack. And and I always love to give the example of my brother, because he’s such a great example of this, where you’ve got to get yourself out of the mindset of your degree, and the only thing you can do and really focus on your skills and what you can bring. He was an industrial engineer by training, he went on the fast track to investment banking, with one of the large firms, you know, was grinding that out for several years to the to the point where you know, his bonus was bigger than the salary, one of those gigs, doing huge international banking kind of got to this point of like, I see what I see. And I don’t want this to be the path that I’m on for the next, you know, 20 plus years as I raised my family walked away with no plan, moved from London to Buffalo, where we grew up, took nine months to explore, like, what were the things that he liked, didn’t like, what was he interested in? Not what was his degree or where he worked, but what could he bring to an organization? How can he tell that story? And he ended up taking a job as a president of an advanced manufacturing firm. Right? And then he eventually left that and he’s since bought a business and doing something that’s completely different. It’s about the mindset and the skills. And I suspect that a lot of the work that you do with your clients is kind of breaking out some of the shell and the habits that we form.

Alex Barker  24:43

Yeah, in fact, we we have a survey that we’ve been developing and working on, where we assess where pharmacists find the most fulfillment and what careers match that kind of fulfillment. And overwhelmingly, every pharmacist has a very high rating for anything relating to soft skills. So very few people care so much about like the actual hard skills of pharmacy. Right. So whether it’s dealing with software, programming, yeah. Providing patient assessments, like anything that you’ve learned technically probably from from school, consider it a hard skill. But where pharmacists don’t really utilize, I think, very well for career development is just all the soft skills that they build in any job that they’ve ever had. Those skills can follow you to wherever you go. I just did a, I just did a Class CE, this morning about impostor syndrome. And there was a few people on there that were saying, like I was, I was working a pharmacy job, and I quit, I had had enough. And I don’t think my skills lend themselves very well to any other kind of job. And I was like, man, what, what is the message we’re sending to our pharmacists that like, you’ve got such a narrow skill, there’s nothing else that you can do with it. I mean, there’s, there’s so much – from teaching to leading to being a manager. And I mean, practically any sector, because we’re all organizational minded. I could go on and on about the different jobs that we could do, even outside of pharmacy. But there’s so much opportunity out there. But the narrow minded nature of looking at what you can do, I think prohibits people from seeing jobs that they could actually have a lot of fun doing.

Tim Ulbrich  26:47

So as typically goes when you and I get on a conversation, I think I had 10 or 12 questions prepped. And I’m on question two, so. But I want to ask you about a trend that I’ve been following from afar, but I know you’ve been looking at closer. I saw you post on LinkedIn several times, which is a trend and a shift around remote work. He had a post recently on LinkedIn that said, you have been inspired by countless success stories of pharmacists who’ve embraced remote roles, reclaiming precious moments with family and friends exploring the world being present for all the important things in life. The perks of remote work are limitless, but it often comes at the cost of a potential pay cut. So what are you seeing in terms of both the interests, you know, what’s driving that interest around, remote work, and then the opportunities that are available in that space?

Alex Barker  27:35

So let’s start with the opportunities. Practically almost any job can be remote for pharmacists. Now, I say that with some caveats. The most common jobs right now are community and hospital. Most people have heard of remote fill pharmacists for hospitals. But what about in the community setting? Well, like it or not, there are policies being put forth in multiple state legislatures that are allowing pharmacists to remotely manage pharmacies in communities where there’s not a lot of access to pharmacies. I am not a fan of that kind of legislation. But I just pointed out as to say, bills are being passed right now to make pharmacists more available to patients via remote access. But where a lot of people are focusing their remote kind of work is in pharma. Those typically don’t rely on people coming into a physical building. So a lot of pharmacists right now are really interested in that sector. But there’s plenty of remote jobs available for just any. I mean, right? I get alerts for our clients. And I just saw a job come in for ambulatory care pharmacist remote fill. And I was like, oh, no, I’m not remote fill, but just remote job. And I was like, Yep, it’s possible care. Yeah. As far as what I’m seeing, I was actually shocked by that poll. Because, I mean, I didn’t I didn’t look at it this morning. Because I mean, it’s hot off the press. It’s still being filled out now. But I think it was like 88% of people said that they would be willing to take a pay cut to get a remote job. And I was honestly surprised by this response. But when I think about it, when I think about who pharmacists are, I mean, we’re typically remote driven people, technically. We are people that want to be present with our families. We normally have families, or they wanting to start one. This newer generation in particular, is really fascinated by location independence. They’re fans of technology, so they’re willing to adopt it in their lives. They don’t necessarily want to be in a location where there’s other people all the time. There’s definitely hinder. And there’s reasons not to pursue remote work, especially for any relationally minded people that thrive being around other people. But yeah, right now, it’s it’s kind of overwhelming. I made that post and I got a lot of messages to respond to from people saying, Okay, you talked about it, where are they? I’ve been looking for a job. And I want to I want to get one. So it’s, it’s been interesting to see, but I suppose I shouldn’t really be surprised by it.

Tim Ulbrich  30:36

Yeah, I’m glad you brought up industry, because that’s a trend that I’ve been watching as well, that makes sense that connection to remote work. I actually talked with a industry fellow recently, who is thinking about geo hacking, to, you know, technically, like there’s not supposed to work remote, but they only have to come in the office about four times a year. And usually it’s 24 hours notice, she says, like, well, for four flights a year, and I can, you know, have a Boston salary without living in Boston, right. But this is a trend I’ve been watching, you know, the data from the workforce still still shows us as a fairly small percentage of the workforce. But it feels like the dialogue around it is a lot bigger. I’ve talked for several pharmacists in the last year, you know, people that have gone from PGY1, one PGY2 to critical care, hemonk specialty roles, sometimes it was from the pandemic that burned them out, you know, others are just looking for other opportunities. And there’s a shift that’s happening to industry. 

Alex Barker  31:32

Yes.

Tim Ulbrich  31:33

 And I’m curious to hear what are you seeing the same and then to what’s driving that? Is it burnout? Is it you know, typically, industry roles come with higher compensation packages, perhaps more volatility, something we’re probably not talking enough about? But what are you seeing as some of the drivers of this shift? And is that a shift you’re seeing? 

Alex Barker  31:52

Oh, yeah, totally. Pharma is the new sexy career to pursue. I just spoke with a professor. I won’t say which school, but I spoke with them about what are students saying they want for preceptors that was like what, what kind of rotations. And she said, it’s always Pharma. That’s what they want. They don’t want clinical anymore. They don’t want community, they get disappointed when they get in a hospital. They want to see pharma jobs. And I think the truth of the matter is, is that the pharma market isn’t ready for this. There isn’t a demand there. There’s a demand on the pharmacists side, there’s a demand from our profession to get more involved, which I think hasn’t been present for the majority of our profession, when I graduated, and I think you can attest to this. We’re getting old Tim, it just hit me. When I graduated pharmacy school, the the the dogma of the time was that you were a bad guy if you went to pharma. You’re just in it for the money, you’re working for the bad guys. You need to be a pharmacist, you need to be a clinician, because then you’re you’re doing what’s right for the patient. Not what’s right for the company. Well, that is almost completely gone. I haven’t heard that from a student once or anything like it, everyone wants to get into it because of the potential for remote work, the potential for work life balance, the potential to just get away from the public. This is a newer one, that at first, I was a little bit surprised by, but for those that are burned out, it makes a lot of sense. You’re not having to deal with angry customers all the time coming at you with any sort of array of problems or anger issues that you cannot predict. It’s tiring to work with the public. And so they see the potential to work in pharma as a way of escaping I think a lot of those things. But it’s not all, you know, sunshine and rainbows in pharma. You know, there’s less job security that’s there, you’re more likely to be let go due to industry changes, market changes. You are more likely to be there, well, I shouldn’t say that with certainty. But there there’s just as many toxic work environments in pharma. There is more job satisfaction by comparison. If you just look for one for one, like job satisfaction rates between pharma and just typical pharmacy, but burnout is still present. So while I know that the opportunity is there, and frankly, like it’s so easy, from my perspective to just get started in doing side gigs in pharma that you can make some extra cash doing those things. But it’s a whole other thing to transition into the field with a job and expect remote, expect a nine to five, Monday through Friday. There are other pressures there for sure. So you have to be careful about who you I mean, what companies you want to get into. The trends are there. I don’t see it going away anytime soon. 

Tim Ulbrich  35:31

Yeah, yeah. And I’ve come to appreciate, you know, this better than I oxys you guys work in this more, but I’ve got a longitudinal appy student right now on an entrepreneurship rotation with us that’s looking at biopharmaceutical industry fellowship programs, and just hearing about all the different spaces within the pharmaceutical industry, I think, you know, in my mind, not speaking for others, tend to paint this broad brush of, you know, industry just like we do and chain and hospital and ambulatory care and academia. But really, there’s layers and details and segments, and yes, you know, MSL roles versus other, you know, regulatory roles. And so, so much to learn about, you know, it’s probably not just fit with pharma, but what is the fit with the specific areas of interest. And from a career placement standpoint, I would think that’s a really important piece to understand to then determine your path for networking and an opportunity.

Alex Barker  36:24

Right, a lot of people think Pharma is just one path. But we’ve identified I think, like eight different sectors. And within each sector, there’s like, eight to 15 different kinds of jobs that pharmacists can do. Some more popular than others. Obviously, clinical medical affairs is way more popular than things like R&D and biotech. But it’s still possible one of our coaches, went from retail chain manager to getting into biotech and helping out with operations. So like, it’s there’s endless possibilities. But it’s a totally different market. It’s not patient care, which is, like, love it or hate it, it’s our bread and butter as a profession. So it does take a leap to get into it. 

Tim Ulbrich  37:14

Yeah, and I think another side conversation that we can have, and save for another day is, you know, so much of the opportunity for our profession does stem whether we like it or not from the public and other’s perception of who we are and what we do. Yeah. And, you know, I don’t think a pub the, the lay public would necessary associate a pharmacist role with being in the industry. So that this goes back and interesting discussion, we think about, like redeployment of our workforce. You know, there’s some sub discussions in there that are really interesting to me of, well, how does that impact the public’s perception of who we are and other healthcare professionals perception of who we are, because right now, we may or may not necessarily like what the perception is, but people largely associate a pharmacist with doing one or two types of things. And we’re now starting to splice that pie chart a little bit further, which is interesting. I think it’s exciting, but also presents maybe some challenges around communicating who we are and what we do. And then how do we educate this pathway that could go in 30 different directions right now we educated to go really in one or two directions. For the most part.

Alex Barker  38:20

You know, I hear a lot of talks about this kind of thing, like within associations, mainly. Maybe a little bit in academia. But I think we have a, we don’t really understand how the market is influencing us. I think the the people in charge of pharmacy, I think for a time they thought, you know, if we just increase our level of education, people will respect us. But hindsight is 2020. And I think it revealed that the market didn’t care. The job market didn’t care. The public didn’t care about this demand. They weren’t telling the powers or regulation, or government bodies, pharmacists need more education. They need to get doctorates in order to do what they can do. And we’re still recoiling from that decision to increase our education, but the job market and the jobs available, don’t demand that higher level of education. So when I think about how we influence the public, I think we put a lot of heavy burdens on ourselves as a profession to try to maintain across the line when we aren’t even looking at the low hanging fruit. So I’ve I’ve publicly said this in a few different places. And there isn’t a whole lot of movement yet because I don’t have the time, but If I was to predict, if everything goes right Tim, and I am able to do this, I would want to create media that positively influences what pharmacists do can do. And I don’t mean cheesy patient stories or pharmacist stories about how they can save person’s life, you know, those are good. They’re good. But like, we need a Hallmark movie about a pharmacist falling in love. We need…

Tim Ulbrich  40:36

Is there a producer of Hallmark that’s listening to the show? We’ll found out.

Alex Barker  40:39

Like maybe, I hope! we need a Breaking Bad story about a pharmacist who, who has a tragic backstory to him and he goes into the pharmacy, does what he can for the community, At night, he’s like a vigilante busting of drug rings. We need video games that showcase what we can do. I don’t know what it is exactly. But we need to influence the public much differently about who we are and what we’re capable of. Because until the public gets it, they’re not going to go along with this idea of oh, I need to schedule an appointment with a pharmacist and I need to pay a pharmacist to do something for me. When for decades, if not well over a century or two, it’s been free to talk to us. You can’t just undo that, because we now have a doctorate. It is going to take decades, if not centuries, to get people to see that we’re different. We can do things we can we can change people’s lives, we can save people’s lives with what we do. But we’re not going to just make it happen if we just make the service. So that’s my Hallmark movie pitch.

Tim Ulbrich  42:09

I love it. Well, speaking of Hallmark movie pitches, maybe we’ll have it in time for the timeframe of my next question, which is 10 years from now. So your vision of our profession in 2033. And let me give you some background statistics that kind of frame where we’ve been starting in 2013 to 2023. And then I’ll ask where you think we may be in 2033. So 2013, we had a little over 60,000  – 62,000 that were enrolled in a PharmD program. The median debt load of a pharmacy graduate was $130,000. And median salary was around $116,000. In 2023, fast forward 10 years actually, some of this is 2022 data, we’re down from 62 to about 47,000 enrolled in a PharmD program. And we know that’s still going down further. Median debt load is $158,000, up from 130. And then finally, we’re seeing the average farmer salary is up from about $116k to $129k. And we know there’s some limitations with with BLS data, but we’ll use that for the sake of the conversation. And then if we draw the pie chart right now, using the workforce survey data we have from 2022. If you combine those that are working in independent pharmacy, mass merchandiser chain, etc, it’s about 50% of our profession, about a quarter, 24%,  or an inpatient/hospital/health system practice. And then the remaining 25% is a spattering of all different types, you know, managed care, fusion, academia, ambulatory care, etc. So when you think about income, when you think about enrollment, when you think about jobs, when you think about types of jobs, like where are we in 10 years? Because I think one of the questions that I think a lot about is where would things be moving with or without the guardrails of the State Boards of Pharmacy? Right, but I think you use this situation we’re in right now that led to a lot of the walkouts and things. The State Board of Pharmacy response has been largely speaking very pro pharmacist. Yeah, obviously, technology, automation for profit companies, all that, perhaps would be moving much faster if it weren’t for that. So I’m just curious where in 10 years, do you see us going as a profession?

Alex Barker  44:34

I can’t wait for 10 years when I listen to this and I go, Oh, Alex. Oh, Alex, if you only knew. So I’ll lay out my biases. I try to be more optimistic than pessimistic. I believe innovation is a great thing. But it’s not without its casualties. Um, and I have a lot of half baked theories. So a lot some of this is going to come across as like, Where’s that coming from? I think in 10 years time, it’s 2023, almost 2020, or I’m sorry, 2020 or 2034? Yeah, I think what will happen, is PBMs are going to get a lot more pressure put on them from lawmakers and the public. I don’t know if they’ll still exist by then. We are the only nation in the world, I believe that uses this model. And it’s a broken, unsustainable model. It’s already starting to get some pressure put on it from a few different places. But these organizations have a lot of money. So they’re not going to go down without kicking and screaming. It’s going to be a fight. And I think there’s going to be some major legislation and court cases to be had over the next couple of years. I think that innovation will continue to drive service delivery within the pharmacy sector. So I think that this is going to drive market demand. I speculate that there will be a new role invented by 10 years from now. I don’t think it will be a pharmacist focus role. I think it will be like a pharmacy advanced technician. I’ve already seen some, like courses and certifications and things in place for that. But I think that the tech check tech programs have been validated enough, both through I mean, we all heard about that Walgreens technician who faked being a pharmacist for 10 years. Right? Do you remember that a few years back, like 2018-2019. That was the biggest tech check tech program ever, with 10s of 1000s of prescriptions that were apparently safely approved by a technician, not a pharmacist. So I believe that there’s going to be almost like a new profession of an advanced pharmacy technician, or call it a downgraded pharmacist. Maybe a pharmacist who only needs- only needs- a bachelor’s. And because that’s what is needed in hospitals and community pharmacy. You do not need a doctorate to practice pharmacy and those settings under current market conditions, current market conditions

Tim Ulbrich  47:47

In a distribution role. 

Alex Barker  47:49

Exactly. So I think Ohio is a great example of this. I think more and more clinical services will be passed through laws and legislation that will create new jobs. However, my fear is that it’s going to be the same story as MTM. I think that we’re based on the things that I’ve read, I don’t know how confident I feel that we are negotiating for all of our worth. And we’re gonna get another bad deal like MTM. So I think that more consultancies, more service oriented pharmacy solutions will be created over the next 10 years that’ll create really interesting and doctorate level positions, to be sure. But you know, everyone, I wasn’t there when MTM was created. But I remember and I’ve read the articles that people thought this is the wave. This is what we can do. And it’s been over 25 years, I think since its implementation. 

Tim Ulbrich  48:56

2006 was the implementation.

Alex Barker  48:59

Oh, was it? Okay, yeah. 

Tim Ulbrich  49:03

I think it was implemented with Medicare. My I’m sure Rob somebody correct me. I think it was Medicare Part D in 2006. 

Alex Barker  49:09

Yeah, I got into college 2006. So I definitely wasn’t paying attention. So it’s been like 20, almost 20 years. And it’s very rare to see a business successfully implementing it. It’s viewed more as a distraction now and so my my wonder is how well are we going to be able to negotiate that into actual payment for services. And I think that innovation will continue in technology and that will replace a lot of what is happening. I optimistically, am hoping for pharmacies to be more like clinics, almost as in a like, a step down from urgent care. But like this is the first place you go to with a problem or a question. And there could be some sort of billing process that could be developed through there. And really how these things can be profitable as both through services, but then also all of the front end stuff, all of stuff that actually makes pharmacies money today, which is not prescriptions. That’s the loss leader and has been now for well over a decade. I think that’s only going to continue unless PBMs power is somehow supplanted. But for what stands in its place, you’re talking, oh, my gosh, think about the amount of time and reform is going to be in place for something like that. In to the final point, which was about students, I really don’t think that pharmacy is going to bounce back in the next five to 10 years in terms of interest. Unless something significant happens from some sort of marketing perspective. Because right now, everyone in forums and online spaces, making it really clear that the money, the salary, the six figure job, which is like the new sexy thing, I don’t know, if you pay attention to that at all, but like, you know, there’s this whole trend right now of people saying like, Oh, they don’t even want to date someone unless they make six figures. Yeah, I’m so glad I’m not dating. But people are making it really clear, like, hey, the salary is great, but it’s not worth it. The debt, the workload, the stress. And this new generation, like we talked about earlier, is just not willing to take that they’re not willing to risk it to get the money, but potentially, like hate their jobs and their lives. So I think interest is going to decrease, which in turn, of course, means increases the salary for us, increases the demand for us from companies. But with innovation, technology, I don’t know how it’s all going to balance out. Those are some of my predictions, some hopeful, some not so hopeful.

Tim Ulbrich  52:17

It’s interesting. I think there’s, as I’ve expressed you before, like, we need more of a space to have these types of conversations and bring in other types of opinions and stakeholders, you know, without, without, you know, feeling like we have to walk on eggshells, you know, and to have those conversations and, you know, you do have to make some assumptions, right. And there’s gonna be some optimistic things, and some that aren’t as optimistic. But one of the things that I’ve always thought is interesting that you alluded to in your comments there is we have a physical footprint that is very unique all across the country. Now misaligned with a business model that is sustainable, and and one that people want to be working in, right, that’s the challenge that we’re in. But we have an interesting physical footprint that was developed. And we’ve run into challenges. You know, I think the maybe the vision 5-10 years ago was a really, pharmacists can fill a gap in the need for primary care of a shortage of which that shortage is getting greater and greater, as less and less physicians want to go into primary care, and they want to go into more specialties. Unfortunately, you know that I don’t really want to say that ship has sailed, but it’s pretty darn close when you look at what PAs and NPs have done in the inroads they’ve made. But we have this physical footprint, which is a very interesting thing to be thinking about. And is it in competition with is a different than primary, you know, what are the different ways we could be thinking about this, but I do think there’s some interesting opportunities here that need a lot more thought and discussion, and you bring up several of those right there. So that’s good stuff. As people are listening, if they’re thinking about making a career transition, maybe it’s a hey, I’m ready right now maybe it’s, this is something I want to be thinking about over the for, you know, future that’s coming up. Where’s the best place, Alex, that they can go to follow you, follow your work and get plugged into the resources that you have available?

Alex Barker  54:11

I think the biggest question people have is, What can I do? Will the next place be any better than what I currently have? Yeah. Are there other career paths for me? And those are all great questions that you don’t have to figure out by yourself. I spent five years trying to figure that out. When when Tim hired me as a coach, that that was a point in my life where I still wasn’t even really solidified in, hey, do I want to go into academia? Or do I want to create a business? And that takes a lot of time and effort on your part. One of the things that can really benefit you is talking to someone who is an expert on career development, and getting a perspective that is outside of you, with someone who knows and understands pharmacy. What I would encourage you to do is to go to our website, thehappypharmd.com, I’m sure we’ll have a link in the show notes, and talk with one of our career advisors. We have two of them on staff with us, Eric and Samar. And they’ve talked with literally hundreds and hundreds of pharmacists. And really, the first step that a lot of people take is like looking at, what can I do, and deciding on a path that makes the most sense for you, and then creating the strategy to transition, and not wasting a whole lot of time doing things like applying to countless jobs, that you may or may not even like, wasting time, not having productive conversations with people. But instead, I would encourage you, talk with us, have a conversation, it’s free to do so just like talking with a pharmacist. It’s free to hang out with us. And in that, you’ll get a little bit of a clearer vision of what you can do, and some next action steps to take. And if you do want to work with a coach, we can talk to you about what that is like, what it’s like working with a coach, and how right now what we do with our clients is we work with them until they get a job. So I’m really excited about the future of pharmacy because we’re helping people get all sorts of cool and awesome jobs, like just last week, talked to someone getting an MSL role. So it’s happening, there are opportunities out there. But I think there’s a smart way of going about it. One that is faster, takes a little bit less effort on your part. That’s with us.

Tim Ulbrich  56:41

Well, great, we will link to that in the show notes happy thehappypharmd.com. I’ll also link to Alex’s LinkedIn profile. If you’re not already following him on LinkedIn, I would highly encourage it. I enjoy the insights you share on the career market that we have going on, I really look at you as an expert in the space. So I’m sure we’ll have you on once if not twice in 2024. But for now, appreciate the recap, you’ve given us where we’re at and potentially where we’re heading. So thanks so much for coming on the show.

Alex Barker  57:08

Thanks for having me, Tim.

[DISCLAIMER]

Tim Ulbrich  57:12

As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. information in the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment. Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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