On Episode 59 of Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, Tim Baker, founder of Script Financial and YFP Team Member, interviews Adam and Brittany Patterson. On Episode 31, Adam detailed how they paid off $211,000 of student loan debt in 26 months. Adam and Brittany are 2015 graduates from Auburn University Harrison School of Pharmacy. Brittany is a pharmacist at Children’s Healthcare of Atlanta. Adam is a pharmacist at Northeast Georgia Medical Center and Assistant Pharmacy Manager at Publix Pharmacy.
Tim Baker: Adam and Brittany, welcome to the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. How are you guys doing today?
Brittany Patterson: Good.
Adam Patterson: Great, thanks for having us.
Brittany Patterson: Yeah, thanks for having us.
Tim Baker: So I would say, Adam, and you did a good job on Episode 031 when you were last on detailing your amazing debt-free that you did and excellent job of calling out Brittany and giving her credit to this journey of paying back debt, but I’m so happy, Brittany, to bring you on and kind of hear your side of the story. That episode, in particular, has been a huge success. It’s actually our third most downloaded episode with almost 1,600 downloads. And I think it just resonates with a lot of pharmacists out there. So kind of if you would, tell us a little bit about yourself and walk us through kind of — Brittany, I guess I’m talking to you of this debt-free story and kind of recap, you know, how it came to be, how you got through it. And let’s go from there.
Brittany Patterson: Yeah, so it’s great to be here. I know Adam talked a lot about our story. I guess he made it sound it like it was all nice and easy, but we really did have a big struggle, you know, those 2.4 years that we went through this. You know, we got that first letter, I guess six months when we got out, and it said, ‘Hey, great job finishing school, but you know, we need our money back.’ And that’s just something that we didn’t really talk about in school. And so we were texting all of our classmates, trying to figure out what they were going to do, and they didn’t know. And so we kind of bit the bullet and that’s why we just decided to refinance. Both of us came out working retail jobs, and so we refinanced, about a year into your retail, you got your job at the hospital. And that was hard because Adam was working night shift, and I was working day shift, so you know, he would be driving out of the neighborhood when I would be driving in the neighborhood. I think we would go three full days of not seeing each other. So it may sound real great, oh, only 2.4 years, but that was really — I mean, it felt very long when we were in the middle of it. It’s not as easy as it sounds. It was very hard work. But it was definitely hard work that paid off in the end. And we had that support of each other, we were on the same page with money. You know, that’s what we — when we just spoke recently to students, we told them that money is one of the biggest issues that couple fight about. And I feel like for us, that’s something that we never really have arguments about. We’re on the same page with money, and we’ve been kind of there since Day 1, knowing how we were going to refinance and everything. And so even though it’s been hard work, we’ve always been on the same page, and it’s definitely helped our marriage too throughout all of it.
Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s funny, when I was preparing for this episode, I went back and it’s one of the few times, actually, to go back as a listener. And I listened to Episode 031 again, and one of the things that Adam said was, smart decisions, hard work and sacrifices, those are really the three things that allowed us to propel you guys forward to pay off the debt. And another thing that Brittany, you mentioned was the refinance. I think you guys refinanced your rate of 6-7% over 10 years down to I think it was 4.25% over five years, kind of locking you into more of an aggressive payment process but also saving you about $65,000 in interest over the course of paying that off. So I guess for you guys, what has been since you paid off the loans, what’s been going on? Like what’s been the big driver of like where do you go from there? Like what’s been the big difference in life since the loans have been paid off?
Brittany Patterson: You know what’s funny is we were just talking about that this morning. I think we work more now than we did when we paying off loans.
Tim Baker: Really?
Adam Patterson: I can agree 100% with that.
Brittany Patterson: Yes. People are like, oh, your loans are paid off, you’re going to enjoy it so much. And I’m thinking, I think we work more now than we did then, but we’re so accustomed to it that it doesn’t seem like a big difference to us.
Adam Patterson: I think it’s about goal-driven too is setting your sights on what’s into the future and just trying to get there. But also, you have to enjoy every bit of it and take some time and have free time for yourself. But yeah, hustle’s been real. We’ve been hustling since we finished paying off loans, still keeping both jobs, Brittany’s been working a little bit extra too, and I work my full 70 and then turn around and pick up a whole other 44, 45 hours in my off week and then back around again, 70 hours again the next week. So it’s been nonstop.
Tim Baker: It’s funny though, because like I think what, you know, it’s kind of like the get-rich-quick schemes that are out there, one of the things I often say to clients and even when we’re speaking is, you know, the key here, especially if you want to retire early or if you want to get through the debt is a lot of it is just elbow grease and is just kind of putting your head down and working hard. There’s not a lot of fancy schemes or tricks. It’s about, you know, really maximizing income and being smart with, you know, budget. I know, Adam, you talked about how, you know, Mint.com was a big part of this. And Brittany, I know you are a Mint.com addict, it kind of is safe to say that.
Brittany Patterson: Yes.
Tim Baker: So and then just having that kind of 100% transparency between the two of you and really looking at it as your loans, but you know, so not much has changed. Obviously, I knew that you guys — and to kind of full disclosure here, you know, Adam mentioned he would be reaching out to me and Script Financial about working together. And you guys did in February, you kind of came on and became clients. And that’s why I have a little bit of an inside track to what’s been going on. But I was reviewing your finances, just in the time that you guys have come on, your net worth has grown exponentially. And it’s really just exciting to see because you guys obviously took a negative of the $211,000 and in two years and change, took that off the balance sheet. And now, you’re perpetuating that same type of mentality and really deploying your resources to your goals. So one of the things that you guys talked about when we did kind of the ‘find your way’ was experiences. And you guys took a vacation here recently. Where did you guys go? How was that?
Adam Patterson: We took a trip to Ireland. We went for a little under two weeks. It was breathtaking. It was amazing.
Brittany Patterson: So much fun.
Adam Patterson: Being able to cash flow pretty much everything and knowing you’re not having to worry about spending this, spending that, because you’ve worked hard, we’ve worked hard, we’ve saved for it. It’s a great payoff, treating yourself to something like that after you finish accomplishing one of those goals.
Brittany Patterson: Yeah, we didn’t have to limit ourselves on the trip, which is nice. We weren’t afraid about not being able to afford a dinner or buying a souvenir because we knew that we worked hard before we went on this trip, and we were able to, you know, buy the things that we wanted to buy. We didn’t go overboard on things, but we just knew that we didn’t have to limit ourselves while we were there, which was really nice.
Tim Baker: Well, and I know kind of when we talk about your goals, obviously experiences is a big part of that. And you know, like when I look at some of the things that we’ve done, you know, as kind of just simple, you know, we’ll get to kind of your next big goal here in a bit, but obviously vacations, so having a travel fund, you know, a savings account that you can cash flow, having a, you know, obviously a fully funded emergency fund, having your home purchase fund, which is kind of the next big thing on the horizon, I think those are just naming the accounts the goals that are out there, you know, psychology says that that alone is a big win. And you know, for me as kind of working with you guys, I know that, you know, if the next trip is Australia or New Zealand or Germany or attending a sporting event to the Panthers or Steelers or Cooperstown, whatever those things are that we kind of outline, my job is to kind of help you make sure that this is the next on the docket and we’re cash flowing those appropriately. So walk me through, you know, since the debt was paid, why did you guys — what was the genesis around, hey, we need to work with a financial planner? What was the big driving force to kind of email me and contact me and say, ‘Hey, Tim, we want to see if working together is a good fit.’?
Adam Patterson: I would say the first thing that got us talking about it is — and I tell other people this too — is we went to school to be pharmacists. We understand certain things when it comes to financial stuff, but we’re not a professional in that. So seeking out professional help, it was our No. 1 goal, whether we should have started before we paid off loans or not, that’s up in the air, but we tell people all the time, it’s never too early to find a financial planner or somebody to help you with that because that’s what their profession is. For us, it was being a pharmacist, serving patients and things like that. So seeking out a financial planner, it was our next step, our next goal simply because we wanted somebody to give us more directive, be able to help balance more things in our life.
Brittany Patterson: Yeah, and to hold us accountable. We know we do have a good income that comes in, but making sure we are putting that income towards our goals and making sure our budget is correct. Just we knew that you could help us more financially than we could help ourselves in that area.
Tim Baker: Well, and I think the other thing that I think resonates or resonated with me in the last story — I know, Brittany, like you just said, kind of confirms that is — I think one of the things that a lot of pharmacists do is they kind of drink that six-figure Kool Aid that says, hey, I come out, and I’m making x amount of dollars, I don’t really have to worry about the debt, it’ll take care of itself. And I think for you guys, and I know, you know, kind of the backdrop is Adam, you went through the Dave Ramsey — I’m not sure if both of you guys went through the Dave Ramsey stuff — but it was kind of this no-nonsense approach to paying off the debt. So talk to me, what’s the big thing right now that is kind of top of mind with where you want to take your financial plan and where we’re going? So I know the big one is the home purchase, right? So we’ve talked about this at length and what that looks like. So walk me through kind of where you guys currently are in that part of your financial plan and what you’ve learned thus far.
Adam Patterson: Right now, like you said, our next step is financially purchasing a home, working with you, setting up, figuring out what we can actually afford. I think that’s one of the biggest things and knowing that you’re not spending too much but you’re going to be comfortable. That’s something that we are working with you, getting approved, working with a bank to get approved. We have a real estate agent now, so we’re in the process of shopping for a home, whether it’s one month, two months, six months from now, we just know that we’re ready for it. And that’s what we’re doing right now is we’re continuing to work towards that goal.
Tim Baker: And I think, I think the idea was to be almost singularly focused on that, similar to what you were with the debt until you guys are moved into the house. And I know, Brittany, that’s kind of like, you want that to happen yesterday because you’re ready to make the purchase. But I think being smart about it and surrounding yourself with a team of people that have your best interests in mind. And I think sometimes that is lost in the home purchase process just because most people, most professionals are incentivized about how much you actually purchase in terms of the size of the house, but I think you guys are going about it, and I think when we went through, ‘Hey, what can we actually afford?’ it was with this discount that you guys are not going to be hustling like that for the rest of your life, you can actually afford something probably greater than you probably would be if you were kind of working consistently. But I think it’s been great working with you because I think you are very open to advice and kind of the education that surrounds a lot of these decisions. So from my end, it’s been awesome. And I think, you know, we see it a lot because I think your story resonates. So walk me through kind of what you’ve been doing speaking-wise since, you know, we’ve last had you on the podcast.
Brittany Patterson: I think — was it June, Adam?
Adam Patterson: Yeah, it was around June.
Brittany Patterson: Yeah, in June, we went to the Alabama Pharmacy Association convention, and we were invited to come speak to the students there. So there were Stanford students, and there were also Auburn students. And we went in, and we had a whole PowerPoint presentation, and it was funny because I don’t think we spoke until about 7, 8 o’clock at night.
Adam Patterson: Yeah, it was 7 or 8.
Brittany Patterson: And it was after they’d all been to the pool, they were all outside, all having fun, and I’m thinking, there’s no way they’re going to want to sit in here and listen to us talk about finances at all. And we walked in there, gave our presentation, and they ate it up. I was shocked.
Adam Patterson: It’s just — it’s crazy when we’re presenting and seeing these students’ mouths drop just because we’re providing them with this information that whether they knew about it or not, it’s just resonating with them and telling a story not in trying to convey that they have to pay off this much money in such a short period of time, but the fact that we’re giving them these resources that, you know, they’re just not provided in school. And I think Your Financial Pharmacist, I think we’ve all harped on this, is making the education relevant and putting it out there for everybody. That’s just something, it’s a passion that we’ve kind of taken up on now is wanting to speak at more events and do more things to try and share our story.
Brittany Patterson: Right, because I think it’s something that we wish we would have had too, coming out of school.
Tim Baker: Yeah, I think Adam, I think one of the things that you said was, you know, when you were looking around, kind of looked to your left and looked to your right at hey, what’s the best way to tackle the loans, there wasn’t really anything there outside of maybe like a colleague and a few opinions. So you know, I think shining a light on this and having more people kind of like just openly speak about some of the trepidations with their loans. We hear a lot of people say, ‘Hey, you know, if we would have known now what we know today, we would have made a lot better decisions,’ and I think that’s why, aside from the facts of, you know, the facts and figures around your particular case, you know, there’s no — like I said, there’s really no silver bullet. It’s just like, OK, we worked a lot, we sacrificed, and you wake up, and you’re through the loans. And now, it’s what’s next? So I think your story, you know, is amazing. But then, you know, the fact that you can stand in front of people and say, ‘A few short years ago, I was in a similar spot, this is kind of what we did,’ is really amazing. So do you guys see yourself speaking more? Did you enjoy that part of it?
Brittany Patterson: Yeah. We both really enjoy it. And we actually have another one in November coming up, and we’re speaking at the National Community Pharmacists Association in Auburn. And so we’re going to go back to Auburn and be able to speak to those students. They came up to us after, I think it was the president of NCPA from Auburn, she came up, she’s like, ‘Oh, we loved y’all so much. We really want to have y’all back. I feel like these students could really learn from y’all since this is something that we don’t hear much about in school.’
Tim Baker: Well, and I think, you know, and that’s what I’m kind of hearing more, especially from NCPA, you know, or at least people associated with, pharmacists associated with NCPA is, you know, the decision or start, you know, an independent pharmacy is so huge. You have to have your own financial house in order or at least have a plan to have it in order, so I think there’s a lot of — you know, especially with that group, you know, a lot of relevancy to say, ‘Hey, if this is something that I really want to pursue, you know, I need to make sure that, you know, this big kind of elephant in the room at least is accounted for and there’s a plan in place,’ and I think that’s a great group to be talking to. So I guess for you guys, if I’m a recent pharmacist grad, what are kind of the big takeaways — I’m a new PharmD, I’m out, I’m earning income, I have kind of the average $150,000, $160,000 in debt. What would be the kind of big takeaways for, that you would impart on me in terms of how to tackle it?
Brittany Patterson: I know no one likes to hear this, but the biggest thing that we did was we lived below our means, which I know everybody hates to hear that because you feel like you’re constricted, but we weren’t because we were so used to living like that in school. And I think that’s one of the biggest reasons we were able to pay off our loans. We weren’t buying expensive cars, we weren’t buying expensive boats. Nobody told the students. We had friends who went and bought cars and boats, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but we just didn’t want more debt on top of the debt we already had. So I think that was one of the biggest things was really watching what we were spending and not overspending.
Adam Patterson: Yeah, I would say that would probably be one of my biggest things is living below our means. Something other to add to that is, you know, work hard for what you’re given. I mean, there’s too many people that just expect or receive things, and it’s all about hard work. Like we’ve talked about before, you know, putting in the hours, trying to maximize that income. As a new grad, I mean, what else do you have to do?
Brittany Patterson: Right.
Adam Patterson: I hate to say it, but to go on top of that, while you’re working hard, you have to treat yourself every now and then. I think debt’s something that we all can get caught up, and just working nonstop but not ever reaping some of that benefit, some of that benefit is to take a vacation every once in awhile.
Brittany Patterson: Yeah, and we don’t really eat out much, and that’s something that, you know, we really appreciate when we do get to eat out. We enjoy those moments more because of the fact that we aren’t doing it all the time.
Adam Patterson: Right. Brittany Patterson: So we don’t take those moments for granted when we are able to enjoy evenings out together, which is nice. Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s a treat rather than the norm, right?
Brittany Patterson: Right.
Tim Baker: Exactly. Well, and maybe, you know, you grow an affinity for Mint.com and logging in every day, right, Brittany? And making sure that the spending is in line, and you’re good there, that would probably be another piece of that.
Brittany Patterson: Right, that is true.
Adam Patterson: What is it they say? Eat, sleep. And Brittany’s is eat, sleep, mint.
Brittany Patterson: Mint, unfortunately.
Adam Patterson: So I will add, you know, something we got a lot of questions about. As a new grad, don’t be afraid to reach out for help. Using your resources and everything, that’s huge coming out of school is finding the information and going off, adding to that is talking about a financial planner and stuff. You know, that question’s came up to us a lot. Should I invest in a financial planner early on? There’s nothing that hurts from investing in a financial planner early on because they’re going to be able to, you know, guide you to those resources also. So that is a big thing I would harp on coming out of school.
Tim Baker: Yeah, and I think to play on that, you know, in terms of extra resources, obviously, I think what we’re trying to achieve here at Your Financial Pharmacist is just with the Facebook group and the different guides, to have information and kind of a community surrounding the information to put you in a position to tackle the debt or investments or if it’s insurance questions, so you know, I know you guys talked about — to kind of bring it back to the loans is one of the big things you did is refinance. So if you are looking to refinance, you know, YourFinancialPharmacist.com/refinance, we have calculators, we have different refinance companies that will give you bonuses and we have podcast episodes that are about student loans. So there’s a lot of good information there if you’re a YFP listener that you can digest and kind of learn more about the process. And I think it’s key to continuously push the envelope in terms of what you want to do with your financial life. Well, Brittany and Adam, thank you so much for coming back on the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast and sharing your incredible story. It doesn’t sound like you guys have let off the gas at all. I know you took your trip to Ireland and took some of that time to decompress, but it sounds like with the home purchase and some of the other things you’ve got going on that, you know, you’re kind of going back to the hustle and making sure you’re making moves with your financial plan. So it’s been a pleasure working with you guys, and I can say that your story truly resonates with a lot of our listeners and just a lot of pharmacists out there that it’s truly inspiring. So keep up the good work, and we’d love to have you back for the next major milestone. So you’ve done the debt-free theme hour, maybe we’ll have you on for the millionaire theme hour when you hit that millionaire status for net worth. So again, thanks again for coming on.
On Episode 58 of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, YFP Founder Tim Ulbrich interviews pharmacy thought leader Deeb Eid, host of the Pharmacy Universe Podcast, about how rising student debt loads and a tightening job market are impacting the return on investment of the pharmacy degree.
Deeb Eid, PharmD started his pharmacy journey as a pharmacy technician learning the building blocks of what both efficient and non-efficient workflow operations could look like. He gained a deep appreciation for the role and potential of the pharmacy technician and continued forward with Bachelors and Doctor of Pharmacy degrees from The University of Toledo College of Pharmacy & Pharmaceutical Sciences in Ohio. His talents took him to Washington D.C. to become the inaugural Executive Resident in Association Management & Leadership at the Pharmacy Technician Certification Board. While traveling the country, he was able to present, meet with, and discuss the challenging and evolving atmosphere within pharmacy with a variety of stakeholders. He now serves as an Assistant Professor and Experiential Coordinator at Ferris State College of Pharmacy in Grand Rapids, MI working to mentor and inspire students while creating new avenues and opportunities. Deeb is the Founder and Content Strategist of Pharmacy Universe which is a social platform whose vision is to socially educate and engage the world about #Pharmacy.
YFP Episode 053: One Pharmacist’s Journey From Financial Ignorance to Financial Independence with Tony Guerra, PharmD
Munger MA, Gordon E, Hartman J, et al. Community pharmacists’ occupational satisfaction and stress: A profession in jeopardy? J Am Pharm Assoc. 2013; 53(3): 282-96.2013
Tim Ulbrich: Deeb, welcome to the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Appreciate you joining us.
Deeb Eid: Yeah, thanks, Tim. I really appreciate you having me on.
Tim Ulbrich: So you’re in Boston for the American Association of Colleges of Pharmacy meeting, AACP. So how’s Boston and how’s that meeting going?
Deeb Eid: Well, Boston’s a really cool place for anybody who hasn’t been there. I highly recommend coming and visiting. Lots of things to do, lots of things to see. And the meeting’s going awesome so far. I think there’s a lot to learn. It’s a little bit different for me, I’m used to the APhA crowd. But definitely meeting some new people, gaining some insight about what’s going on in pharmacy education, and also reconnecting with a couple old friends.
Tim Ulbrich: I’m so bummed I couldn’t go. I’ve been to that meeting several times. Great networking, great programming. I do have to say, as a Buffalo Bills fan, I’m a Patriots hater, so I’m not sad about that point about not being in Boston. I’m sure there’s lots of Patriots, Red Sox fans around. And what I want to do on this episode is, to be honest, I think we have a long overdue discussion about what’s the Return on Investment of the pharmacy degree? And last week on your show, the Pharmacy Universe podcast, which we’ll link to in the show notes, Episode 004, you and I had a discussion related to personal finance and the future, we talked about debt loads and what this means for new practitioners, but we did get off on a little bit of a tangent , which was good, about some of the evolutions of the profession and where we’re heading. And disclaimer for listeners before we jump into the weeds on the discussion is that while we’re going to make a case that the Return on Investment of the degree is down in terms of where it has been, we are certainly not dismissing the fact that pharmacists make a good income, make a good living. And the reality is as individuals, a pharmacist’s income is still well above the median household income in the U.S. So it’s all relative, but we are certainly talking here about the shifts and the changing market that we’re seeing over the last 7-10 years or so. So three parts of this show that we’re going to walk through. Part One, we’re going to talk about the impact of high debt loads and a tightening job market. Part Two, Deeb and I are going to talk about how doom and gloom really is the situation? Are we overplaying it? And in Part Three, we’re going to talk about the action because I think we have a lot of people getting fired up, a lot of people complaining, but what are we actually going to do about this going forward? So Deeb, before we jump into the national trends and start this discussion on the Return on Investment of the pharmacy degree, as a new practitioner yourself, tell us a little bit about your career story, your journey and maybe even how student loan debt has played its part in your own journey.
Deeb Eid: Yeah, Tim. So a little bit about my background and my story is I went to the University of Toledo in Ohio. Go Rockets!
Tim Ulbrich: Go Rockets, yeah.
Deeb Eid: And during my time there, I started out working in a pharmacy as a pharmacy technician pretty early on, basically right out of high school, started out that summer and started to really gain an appreciation for what happens in workflow of a community pharmacy. And it’s kind of like almost like an art, you know? You go and you work at different stores and you see things run smoothly, and then you go to a different store and you see things on a particular day, maybe run not so smoothly. And so through that process, I started gaining appreciation for the role of the pharmacy technician. Obviously went on, completed my PharmD and had a really interesting and awesome opportunity to complete an executive residency out in Washington, D.C. with the Pharmacy Technician Certification Board. And so through that experience, I was able to basically travel across the country, meet different people, see what’s going on within the profession and kind of like what you’re saying, meet new practitioners, meet people who have been in the profession for 20-40 years and hear their stories and hear what their thoughts are. And I think personal finance is actually a topic that comes up really no matter what just because of, yeah, what’s happening with student loan debt and asking people, oh, I can’t believe — and they’ll tell you, I can’t believe how much people are paying for school nowadays compared to back when I went to pharmacy school. And so my story relating to student loan debt is — and I’m not here to turn any of your listeners off — but to be honest with you, I was extremely fortunate, and I actually had my schooling — my father really actually helped pay for most of my schooling.
Tim Ulbrich: Awesome.
Deeb Eid: So I never really thought about student loan debt throughout my schooling. It wasn’t something that was a stressor to me. But what I did learn through the process is now reflecting back, how was that possible? How was my father able to in his personal life be able to support me in that way? And the other thing I think I learned was that everyone around me, this was one of the focuses of themselves, and so I needed to learn about it because, you know, people talk about it, so I want to be included in the conversation. But more recently, my significant other Kristen is also dealing with a situation now after she just graduated of looking at student loan debt. And so it’s a topic that even though I don’t have personal experience paying off student loan debts or worrying about it, it’s still something that I feel is extremely important because a bunch of people around me have it, and I want to be able to and need to be able to explain and help them and students, now that I’m an educator.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think one of the things, just building off of what you said there, is you know, while obviously you had a very fortunate situation, if we look at the data nationally, 90% of all graduates have some student loan debt with the average amount being just now over $160,000, although we’re waiting for the new data here in 2018. And what I’ve heard, and I’m guessing you’ve heard from colleagues and peers and even those you’ve essentially interacted with your podcast at Pharmacy Universe, is that this is such a big stressor and weight on their back that one of my concerns here as we talk about the ROI of the pharmacy degree is we are in desperate need of innovation in pharmacy practice. And sometimes with innovation comes risk-taking, comes entrepreneurship and trying to build some new things. And one of my concerns, and one of the things we’re trying to tackle at Your Financial Pharmacist, is that you have this massive gorilla on your back that is maybe making you risk-averse, is stressing you out, obviously, that has an impact I think profession-wide in terms of what we can do in regards to being innovative. And so I would point listeners all the way back to Episode 004 where we interviewed Dr. Joey Mattingly from the University of Maryland, another thought leader, in my opinion, and we talked about very analytically what has been the impact of student loan debt in terms of new practitioners. And we got very granular and got very specific with numbers in terms of how it’s impacting graduates and how that’s changed. So let me paint a quick picture, and I’m going to dig into the weeds here a little bit on some numbers, so for those listeners, don’t tune me out here because I think the data does not lie. And we have to understand that the situation we are in right now is not a normal situation relative to, say, five or 10 years ago in terms of where we are as a profession. So I’m going to give some data here about debt loads, salary data, and then also we’ll talk a little bit about what’s happening to the job market. So first on debt loads, very simply, 2010, the median debt load was $100,000. 2017, it was about $160,000. So we had almost a 60% increase in seven years. And so I often hear people say, well, nationally, debt loads have gone up x%. True, but if you look at pharmacy education among some other health professions, that has outpaced the national average in a very significant way. Well, the other part to look at is if debt loads have gone up, have salaries increased proportionally? Because if they have, then we can make an argument that man, this really stinks that debt loads have gone up, but salaries are taking care of it. And the answer to that is they are not. So if we look at median salary for a pharmacist in 2010, it’s about $111,000. In 2017, it’s about $124,000. So I’m always looking at what’s the debt-to-income ratio of a pharmacist? And in 2010, that debt-to-income ratio was .9. In 2017, it was 1.28. So what’s interesting is if you look at pharmacists’ salaries alone, they are not keeping up with inflation over that time period. So even if we were to remove student loan debt and interest rates and the reality that some people are not in part-time work positions, those incomes are not keeping up with inflation alone. Of course, when you add in all these other factors, that situation becomes worse. So now we ask the question, Well, if we have people that are graduating with more student loan debt, salaries are not increasing proportionally, well, how much is their likelihood to get a job? What’s the job market look like? And there, we look to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And what we see that as of 2016, there was just over 312,000 jobs in the pharmacy profession. And now, here is the statistic that is alarming to me, that the Bureau of Labor Statistics is projecting that over a 10-year period, 2016-2026, they’re projecting 17,400 jobs that would be increased during that 10-year period. But in 2017 alone, we had approximately 15,000 pharmacy graduates. So let me say that again. Over a 10-year period, they’re projecting just over 17,000 new jobs. But in one year alone, 2017, we had approximately 15,000 new pharmacists enter the market. So something has to give. Now, some people look at that and say, well yeah, of course people are going to retire, other things are going to change, but obviously that’s not going to make up for that difference. So there, we need to begin the conversation about what is the challenges, what are the challenges with the situation and what can we start to do about it? So in summary, we have higher debt loads, we have fewer availability of jobs, we have more graduates that are coming into the market. So Deeb, my question to you is from your perspective, as somebody who I look to as an innovator and a thought leader, what are the risks and challenges that you see with graduates that are coming out with rising debt loads and relatively speaking, a stagnant job market? What are your thoughts?
Deeb Eid: So I think first of all, some of the numbers that you provided there, again, are pretty interesting. When I take a look at the statistics and I see, like you said, the Bureau of Labor Statistics projecting that many jobs over 10 years. And you and I very well know that there’s a lot of people who are graduating from pharmacy school each year. I think some of the risks and challenges with graduates coming out having these rising debt loads is — you’re right. That’s the tough part is when you come out of school and you have this thousand-pound gorilla of student debt on your back, and you’re trying to figure out where to start off in life, right? So you have a lot of different things going on. You might be moving for a job or a position or a residency. This could be your first car buying opportunity, this could be your first home buying opportunity. There’s a lot of things that happen in those first couple years as a student who graduates, becomes a pharmacist and now looks at your paycheck and thinks, oh man, I have all this money now. And so that’s where I think it’s challenging because people are going to be stuck, to an extent, where you might get a job, you might not be happy with the job that you have or you might not be satisfied. But you know that you need that job in order to be able to pay for that car, pay for that home, pay for those student loans. And so that’s I think part of the challenge is yes, there’s going to be people retiring, so there’s going to be jobs opening up, but what I really think is interesting — and maybe we can talk about this is the opportunities that could come from people focusing their time on different areas and trying to think outside the box of what they can do to, you know, again, build a brand, build a market and figure out ways that pharmacy can be involved in healthcare in ways that are nontraditional from what we’re currently doing.
Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. It makes me think back to Episode 053, we interviewed Tony Guerra from the Pharmacy Leaders podcast who his Episode 001, Pharmacist’s Journey from Financial Ignorance to Financial Independence, one of his suggestions that stuck with me and will stick me I think forever is this idea of as a new graduate, he took what he calls Entrepreneurial 8. So right off the bat, he took 32 hours a week — he actually tried to work 24, but they wouldn’t let him — 32 hours a week, and he said, you know, 8 hours a week, I’m going to begin to think about some of the things that I’m passionate about, pharmacy practice and how I can be entrepreneurial. Now, from the financial perspective, that to me is a brilliant idea and I think it’s great for the profession as well. Obviously, we’ll be advancing thoughts and ideas, but also, it requires somebody to be able to right off the bat say, OK, I’m not going to live up to my full income. And obviously, it starts to give you options and flexibility in the event that things change along the way. Now, student loans, if you’ve got $200,000 of student loan debt, is it going to be easy to say, ‘I’m going to take 32 hours instead of 40.’ And is that the best decision in the moment? You know, maybe yes, maybe no, depending on your personal situation. And I think that’s one of the biggest fears, if you will, that I have right now is that there’s this mentality that I’m feeling and that I felt as a new graduate of maybe you’re in your mid-20s, maybe you’re even a little bit older as a student, you’ve got over a six-figure job that’s right there, sign the paper. It’s comfortable right off the bat. Does it restrict you, though? And is it restricting what we’re able to do and evolve as a profession? And I think the reality of that business model is it’s gotten us stuck into a place of where we’re at right now. And there’s not necessarily as much room and opportunity for innovation, growth and risk-taking. And Deeb, I don’t know what you’re seeing — I know one of the things I’m hearing among our graduate is there’s this feeling, obviously in some sectors of work moreso than others, but there seems to be this feeling of I’m only a couple years out, what I had imagined this could be, it isn’t what I thought it could be. Now I’m looking up and I’ve got 35, 40 years left of work history, and I feel stuck. I mean, is that something that you’re hearing? What do you perceive to be the implications of that in terms of somebody so early in their career feeling like they’re stuck?
Deeb Eid: So I’ll tell you from a personal standpoint, I worked during my school, so while I was in pharmacy school, so I worked for about six years, so throughout the entire six years at Toledo, I was working. And I worked in a couple different — I worked in a couple different pharmacies. And to be honest with you, that statement that you made, that feeling of not really ‘I feel stuck,’ but it’s more of, ‘This isn’t really what I think I expected,’ or, ‘This isn’t really aligned with what I thought I would be doing,’ that was honestly one of the feelings that I had throughout those towards the end of those six years was I know what I’m learning in school, I understand what could be, but then there’s things that happen at work or there’s responsibilities that I’m doing at work that just doesn’t feel like I’m living up to the potential or you know, I could be doing so much more for my patients. I just am not able to or my company maybe doesn’t allow me to or the laws or regulations don’t allow me to do these things. And so that’s what I think for me, from a personal aspect, that’s where I felt I needed to do something a little bit different. Hence, why I went out and did my residency in an area that was a little nontraditional. But yeah, I mean, I talk to some of my former classmates and a couple other people out there who are newer into the profession, and it is something to think about. I’ve heard a few times here and there that, well, you know, you kind of get into this — it’s almost like a rhythm. You learned all these different things, there’s all this potential, and then it’s like your dreams and hopes are shot down.
Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.
Deeb Eid: It’s kind of an interesting phenomena.
Tim Ulbrich: Well, and I think we know — for me, I’m very passionate about career development. It’s what I do a lot here at the university. And the reason is exactly what you’re saying. I mean, what we know and what I’ve seen in our alumni and seen in my own life is that if you’re challenged in the work environment, if you’re given autonomy, if you’re allowed to be creative in the way you think, if you’re allowed to be entrepreneurial even within an organization, that feeling of satisfaction that comes from that trickles over to many other areas of life, right? You walk home more confidently, and it can have an impact on relationships and other areas. And so one of the things that I’m passionate about, specifically for the financial piece, is trying to help people manage this financial component so that they can maybe look at an alternative job path. Maybe they can go back for additional training, back for additional schooling. Maybe they can start their own business and take a few more risks. And one other thing that really stuck out to me as I was preparing for this show — and you’re probably familiar with the 2013 study that was published in the Journal of American Pharmacists Association, JAPhA, that we’ll link to in the show notes. It was a study done by Munger, et al, which has had a lot of attention and debate. And essentially, they studied, take-home point is they studied over 300 community independent pharmacists, and their conclusion was that there was high amounts of dissatisfaction. Specifically, more than 50% of those surveyed stating that they were considering quitting their job. And I think that’s such an important point. And whether we want to debate is that representative, is that not, we know that and we have a pulse on that there is that feeling out there. And if we, as a profession, are going to move forward and be innovative and be forward-thinking and rock the boat and think about the way pharmacy’s been done, and think in the futuristic type of way and not look back at how it’s always been done, we’ve got to address this feeling that’s out there, and we cannot ignore that it’s out there. And I think one of the risks, to wrap up this first part here, one of the risks that I see — and the numbers support this — is we have a very significant decline in applicants into PharmD programs across the country. And that should be getting all of us fired up. So let me give you some data here. 2010-2011, we had approximately 107,000 applications into pharmacy school. 2016-2017, that number went down to 73,000 in that time period. All the while, the number of schools increased in a dramatic way. So in theory, we should have more applications. So we have more graduates coming out with less applications coming in. So that’s the transition then into the second part, and really what I want to discuss here for a few minutes is how doom and gloom is this situation? You know, we could stop here and say, the sky is falling. Are we over playing it? Is that reality? And to me, Deeb, it feels like that we’re at risk, as a profession, of being stagnant in the way that we do business when the market is clearly telling us the status quo is not OK. And when I say the market is telling us, I’m referring to the number of applications into pharmacy school, that’s an indicator of interest in the profession as well as what we’re seeing in the evolution of the profession. Most notably, we’ve talked recently on your podcast about the Amazon buyout of PillPack. You know, it feels to me that we’re at risk of becoming the Blockbuster in the Netflix world, right? So my question to you is how doom and gloom is the situation? Is it worth sounding the alarms? Are we too late? Or is this a trend that we can really start to reverse? What are your thoughts? Deeb Eid: So a couple things come to mind when I think about the situation. No. 1 being what I try to do when I, from a big picture standpoint, when I look at the situation, I try to actually look outside of the profession of pharmacy. So what’s going on? What are the trends within consumer buying? What are people looking for? What is the average person on a day-to-day basis, what are they expecting out of the businesses, out of the services that they are getting from other places? So if you look at businesses like Netflix, like Amazon, like Uber, some of these ones that really, really, have come out of nowhere in the past few years but have really just become leaders across the board. So some of the things that I think about is you know, if you take a look at those organizations, what are three things that they focus on that we, as a profession of pharmacy, can learn from? And I think three things that I see is when it comes to the person on the other side of their services, No. 1 is that they help save people time. OK? So time is something that I believe any person out there would put a major premium on. If you can save somebody time in their life, that means that that’s time that they have to reinvest in something that they enjoy doing. So I think that’s a huge thing that a lot of these companies have in common. No. 2 is convenience. They’re making it more convenient for the person on the other side, right? So you want something from the store? You don’t need to go to the store. You can order it on Amazon, and it’s there the same day or the next day. You want to watch a new series? Turn on Netflix. There you go, you can watch the entire series. You don’t even have to move from the couch anymore.
Tim Ulbrich: Right. And now it’s predicting what you want to watch, right? It’s amazing.
Deeb Eid: Exactly, it’s telling you different things based on your shows. You know, you want to get somewhere quickly and again, know where you’re going and be convenient and safe, take Uber. And I know people will say, oh, there’s some stories with Uber that people have gotten hurt, but far and in between. But again, it’s that convenience. And then the third thing — so you know, you have time, you have convenience. And the third thing that I believe these places are doing is they are just, they’re listening to the consumer. They’re listening to their customers as to what they are looking for. And that’s why they keep improving their models. And so I think from a pharmacy standpoint, you know, for doom and gloom. Is the situation getting worse? Is it getting better? I think that in pharmacy, like you said, people are coming out, they have a lot of student loan debt, that’s limiting innovation, that’s limiting opportunities for people to be innovative. Sometimes, they’re getting into positions where they’re not going to be able to come in right off the bat and you know, kind of think outside the box unless they really spend time and effort outside of their jobs doing it. You have less people applying to pharmacy schools, you have a decent amount of graduates. And so I don’t want to say that we’re doomed as a profession, but I think that what we need to do is we need to start looking at the models that we’re utilizing and figure out where can we start to focus on those types of areas because the future consumer and the current consumer are somewhat different, right?
Tim Ulbrich: Yes.
Deeb Eid: So I think a lot of the people in today’s world in the future are going to expect that you can pick up your phone, hit a button, and boom, there’s a pharmacist on the screen. I want to have a conversation with somebody, I have questions about my medication, boom. A future consumer is probably going to expect they’re in their kitchen, and they’re about to have dinner, about to sit down for dinner. They can say, ‘Hey, Alexa, tell me about my medication. Am I able to take it with this type of food that I’m about to be eating? Is there any interaction?’ These are the things that are being built into society that I think the future consumer is going to expect, and that’s where I see the opportunity for, you know, people within pharmacy and graduates to be involved. It’s just not going to be in the traditional what you think of now where you’re going to get a degree, you graduate, you work in a pharmacy. I mean, those things are still going to be available, but I think that’s where the jobs and the opportunities are going to be is we’re going to have to start creating these opportunities so that we can continue to reach our patients in a way that’s convenient, that saves them time and that’s still quality.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, absolutely. And I think there’s so many good nuggets that you had there. I mean, to me, one of the things that I’m often thinking about that you highlighted there is we are at a point, I think, I believe, that we have to think about reinventing ourselves as a profession and the role of the pharmacist. We know the value, we have the data to support it, but we need to blow up preconceived notions about exactly how pharmacists have to operate and how pharmacy is done in every single setting that we operate. And I think one of the great advantages of these moments like we’re in as a profession is that with any moment like this comes unbelievable opportunity for innovation, entrepreneurship and growth. And as I used Blockbuster as a reference, Family Video is still around. I’m still trying to figure that out. I don’t understand that. But you know, with those models, there’s an opportunity to either evolve or not evolve. And so I think we can look at it one way and throw up our hands and say, ‘Ugh, this is terrible. We need to hold onto the way that pharmacy’s done, and we’re going to hold that out regardless of the things you mentioned, that time, convenience, understanding what the future consumer wants,’ or we can get together, have the uncomfortable, difficult conversations and say, ‘Let’s throw out the way it’s always been done at least in thought. Let’s brainstorm about alternative ways that it can be done. And let’s think about it from the consumer standpoint and also think about where technology, automation and other things are going.’ And I think you used some great examples there, even with Alexa is one example but just to get us thinking in a different way. So let’s move now to the call to action. What are we going to do about this? And I know we talked briefly about this in that last section, but we’ve painted a picture of the current reality we’re facing as a profession. And now the question is, so what are we going to do? What steps should we be taking? And what practical things can our listeners to begin to reverse this trend? What do you think, Deeb?
Deeb Eid: Yeah, so I think the very first thing that is, you know, low hanging fruit — and I would say this is probably something that anybody who comes across us, anyone who’s listening, no matter your situation, I think that if you can take at least one step in this direction, you’ll be definitely doing yourself a favor. Just learn about personal finance. Take advantage of, you know, things that you guys are doing here at Your Financial Pharmacist. Read a few different articles about it, learn about student loans if that’s something that you’re dealing with. Just learn about finance in general because I can’t tell you how simple it is to — you know, it’s just like learning therapeutics, it’s just like learning pharmacology. And it sounds very, you know, overwhelming, it sounds like, man, like I don’t speak this language, but it’s the same thing, right? You just have to put in time. It takes a little bit of effort, but if you do it step-by-step and utilize I think the community that you guys are building with Your Financial Pharmacist, that’s another awesome thing is you have other people out there who are going through the same things that you are and you can learn from them and you can ask questions and you can interact with them. And so that’s I think step No. 1 is really just taking it on your own onus to learn about personal finance because that, I believe, is going to save you a lot of stress in your future or wherever you’re at in your career. So I think that’s kind of one step that I see. The second step is having those conversations, like you said, those difficult conversations and coming up with these creative ways but really trying to, again, figure out in your current workplace, in your current situation, in your current life, what is something, what is one thing, what is one thing that you could be doing that could be challenging or helping to, again, look outside of pharmacy and figure out what that future person, what that future consumer might be expecting. What is one thing that you might be able to start working on that would be able to help the profession of pharmacy. So you know, that could be starting up a blog about your thoughts and your experiences and you know, how things might be different at your workplace or things that you’ve seen with your patient care or wherever you work. That could be starting up a podcast, you know, just like we’re doing here and just like I’ve done over at Pharmacy Universe and just talking to people and having the conversation, getting the word out there. That could be writing a book. I know that sounds very challenging, but you know, there’s a lot of great books out there that I’ve seen, and I think there’s not enough books out there about these topics that we’re talking about today, about how pharmacy is evolving and kind of what different opportunities that there could be out there. So those are kind of three areas that I could see. I believe personal finance is a big one, thinking about building a personal brand is probably the second one, and then the third one is connecting with the community and just figuring out how to disseminate some of your ideas and thoughts that you have — or at least learning from others that have those ideas.
Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff. And if I could add a few things to that list that are on top of my mind. You know, one for me is you’ve got to be a part of the conversation. So whether that means being active in your local, state, national organizations, you know, on this podcast, we’ve done a lot of work with the American Pharmacists Association. It could be your state pharmacy association, your local group, because to be a part of the change is different than just complaining about it, right? So pay the membership dues, get involved, be at the table. And second to that comes being a part of the change when it comes to legislation and advocacy. So if you want to see a change, I’ve seen this firsthand with the work with Ohio Pharmacists Association, it’s not as difficult or overwhelming as it may appear from the outside looking in. So engage in those areas. And then Deeb, one of the last things I want to mention here is I’ve been trying to do more self-development outside of the pharmacy space. So I felt like I kind of fell into this rut of, you know, I’m always learning from pharmacy literature, pharmacy conferences, all great, but there’s so much to learn outside of the pharmacy space, even outside of the health profession. So I’ve been listening to some podcasts and reading some books lately, watching some TED Talks. One of the things that’s catching my attention recently is some more U.S. History type of stuff. I was just listening to a podcast on FDR to Harry Truman and that evolution and struggles and challenges, one back to the American Revolution. And I think getting to think in a different way to say, here were leaders and individuals and people and times in our history that had very challenging points where they had to pivot and make a decision, and they had to rally people around them to achieve a shared vision. And so we will link to some of those in the show notes, but just getting out there and saying, I’m going to do one thing, like you mentioned. Maybe it’s getting out there and getting inspired from some TED Talks or books or podcasts or joining an organization and becoming more active. I think there’s lots that we all can do collectively as a group and a community to move forward. So what I want to do is end on a few rapid-fire, Q&A questions for you while I have you here. So I’m going to ask you questions, quick answers, and we’ll move through these one-by-one. So first question is, the trend in pharmacy applications, which is currently down, will continue over the next five years. True or false?
Deeb Eid: I think it’s true.
Tim Ulbrich: One piece of advice you’d have to a prospective pharmacy student in light of today’s conversation?
Deeb Eid: Learn about personal finance as much as you can.
Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. And finally, what is one piece of advice you would have to current students that are worried about the job market in terms of getting full-time work and the rising debt loads that they see? Deeb Eid: I would say work on building your personal brand and make sure that you are utilizing your time so that you are one of the top candidates when you graduate and that you have options.
Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff. Deeb, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. And for our listeners, we’ll link to the show notes, but if you’re not yet familiar with the work he’s doing over at the Pharmacy Universe, check it out. I’ve listened to the episodes you’ve published so far. I love the telehealth components, getting us to think different legislatively, trying to push the envelope, so thank you for the work that you’re doing over there and very much appreciate you taking the time to come on today’s show.
Deeb Eid: I appreciate it, Tim. And can I mention one thing? Because you had mentioned a couple of the different avenues of books and podcasts and that before I go?
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, please. Please.
Deeb Eid: So there’s a book that I recently picked up — and if you’re not familiar, check out the YouTube channel, it’s called Impact Theory by Tom Bilyeu. It has some awesome interviews on there that really challenge you to think outside the box. So one of the interviews that I was watching had this particular person on here, and he wrote a book. And I actually just picked up the book here in Boston, but I’m going to recommend it. It’s called “The Third Door,” and it’s by Alex Banayan. And so basically, it’s this guy’s story about — I’ll give you a very quick summary. He says that there’s really three ways, that life is like a nightclub. There’s three ways in. There’s the first door, which is the main entrance, that’s where 99% of the people wait, hoping to get in line. They’re hoping to get into the club. There’s the second door, which is the VIP entrance. That’s where billionaires and celebrities get in. But then the one that no one tells you about, and that’s the third door. It’s where you have to jump out of the line, run down the alley, bang on the door 100 times, crack the window open, sneak through the kitchen. But he says that there’s always another way in and to be always looking for that way in. So I think that that kind of goes along with the theme that we’re talking about today.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, we definitely need a third door right now and people knocking on that door, so thank you for sharing. And I have a problem that when I hear of a book recommendation, literally within five minutes, I have to buy it. So I will be doing that right now and look forward to reading that on a vacation coming up in a couple weeks. So Deeb, again, thank you so much. And to our listeners, as always, thank you so much for joining us. Looking forward to joining you again next week.
On Episode 057 of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, Tim Ulbrich gets practical to talk about why automation matters when it comes to achieving your financial goals and specific ways you can automate your own financial plan. We will hear from the YFP Community about different ways that they automate their financial plan.
Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to Episode 057 of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Not going to lie, fired up about this episode. When it comes to automating your financial plan, it’s so obvious, so effective, so easy to implement, but yet so many people are not optimizing this to achieve their own financial goals, and that would be myself included. I’ve made some recent changes to my own financial that I’m excited to share with you in this episode when it comes to automation. Whether it’s student loans, retirement, college savings, vacation, maybe it’s saving for a down payment on a home, setting goals and carving out money in the budget and automating those goals is powerful. And I know that I’m not alone that when I say that for some time, I was feeling that when you have multiple financial priorities that are swirling around, that can easily become overwhelming, and automation helps to put these goals into action and takes the stress out of wondering whether or not they’re actually going to become reality.
So let’s jump in as we’re going to talk about different ways of automating your financial plan. And as I was preparing for this episode, I couldn’t help but think back to Episode 008, Developing a Millionaire Mindset by YFP team member Tim Church, because when I think about automation, I think that’s a key piece of developing a millionaire mindset. For those of you that have not read the book, “I Will Teach You To Be Rich” by Ramit Sethi, I’ll link to it in the show notes. It’s just a great, quick, easy read, but one of the things he talks about in that book at great extent is this idea of automation and the power of automation and taking the decision-making out of the hands and taking some of the behavioral components where we tend to make mistakes and putting in processes to help to minimize those mistakes.
So before we dig into the weeds to talk step by step about exactly how to automate your own financial goals, let’s talk about why in the world you’d want to set up an automatic process for your finances in the first place. You know, the first thing that comes to mind — we’ve talked a lot about this on the podcast, throughout various episodes leading up to here now in Episode 057, and we’ve mentioned several times that so much of personal finance is behavioral decision-making. You know, I once heard about four or five years ago, about 80% of this whole topic of personal finance comes down to behavior and about 20% is really digging into the math and the numbers and the strategy. You know, as I’ve made more mistakes, had more successes along the way that on both sides of that, I would argue 80% may not be enough. That might actually be more like 90%.
And for me, when I think about automation, I think about out-of-sight, out-of-mind because I know at the end of the day, if all of that money is just sitting in my checking account and I haven’t automated it towards the goals that I’m trying to achieve, whether that would be getting out of credit card debt, whether that would be paying down student loans fast or retirement, college savings, vacation, home buying, repairs, whatever, I know that human nature and behavior is that I’m going to spend that money — I’m going to hope that something’s left over, but more often than not, nothing’s going to be left over, and I’m going to spend that money. And when I think about automating a financial plan, I think about intentionality. I think about paying yourself first and making sure you’re then really budgeting around the rest of it rather than hoping there’s something left over at the end of the month. So first off for me is that human behavior says that we’re better off taking the decisions out of our hand because we’re prone to making mistakes when it comes to finances. You know, one of the things that gets personal here for me is I think about my own retirement savings, I’m in the state teachers’ retirement system here in Ohio, so many of you know I work as a faculty member of Northeast Ohio Medical University College of Pharmacy, been here for about nine years, and in the state teachers’ retirement system, we essentially are forced to put in a percentage of our paycheck each and every month. And that number is actually I think now approaching 14% that we are forced, no decision in our hands, to put that money into retirement. We then also have an employer match, but as I think about where I am today, nine years later with my retirement assets, I think the only that is possible is because that decision was taken out of my hands. I cannot say that I would have had the discipline, that I would have prioritized putting 15+% of my paycheck each and every month into retirement, so I think that’s a good example as we talk about areas for automation, retirement is certainly one. But again, end of the day, if that money were in my checking account and that decision wasn’t made for me, I probably wouldn’t have achieved the success I have so far as it relates to retirement saving.
And so I think that’s a humbling moment to think that the only reason, the only reason my retirement is on track and ahead of progress is because that decision was put on automatic, because that decision was taken out of my hands. Now, we know that another reason automation is important, besides a behavioral decision processes associated with it, is that for many listening, whether you’re a student, if you’re a resident, maybe you’re somebody who’s transitioned out within the last five or 10 years, regardless of where you are in that spectrum, we know that you’re facing lots of different financial goals that you’re trying to juggle. You know, in Episode 048 we interviewed Dalton Fabian in the episode called Mo’ Money Mo’ Problems: Making the Financial Transition Into New Practitioner Life, and what stuck out to me about that episode with Dalton is he, like many others transitioning from student into new practitioner life, have all of these things that are coming at you at one time, student loans, emergency fund, retirement, down payment for a home, maybe kids’ college savings, lots of different things that are coming. And how do you strategically prioritize those and achieve those? And I think as we’ll talk about here in a minute, I’ll share some examples from those within our Facebook group, having a plan in place with a budget that’s executing those and then automating that plan each and every month is the key to success there.
So let me give you some quotes from those YFP members in our Facebook group, and this is what they had to say about automation in their own financial plan.
So Brianne from the YFP Facebook group said that “I automate as much as I possibly can, including savings, on the first of the month, all fixed bills and student loans as well. To me, that makes it easier to budget because I only ‘feel’ like I have whatever is left over rather than my whole paycheck.” I think there’s such wisdom there from the sense that when you pay yourself first, first of the month, you automate paying yourself towards your goals, all of a sudden, you get used to living on the rest rather than living up to your full income and hoping you can fund your goals after the fact.
YFP team member Tim Church says, “Love automating as much as possible — bills, everything, all bills, student loan payments, HSA contributions and TSP contributions.” That’s his retirement component with the VA. So when it comes to automation for Tim Church, he’s automating as much as possible.
Matt from the Facebook group says that, “I automate most of it but still need help for the leftover. I auto-deposit 529 college savings accounts every 15 days, one for each kid, auto-deduct 401k every check, have a separate target date fund that comes out once a month. I pay my bills as soon as I get them from the mailbox because I like to actually see the balances, which is the only reason they aren’t on autopay.” And I think that’s an interesting point, Matt, that maybe some may say, you know what, I like to not necessarily automate all of my bills — maybe you do, maybe you don’t — but for Matt, he looks at that and says, you know what, if I get my bill, whether it’s water, sewer, cell phone, whatever it be, that he likes to see the balance in the process of it to make sure that everything is accurate.
Brian says that “We automate 401k contributions and savings account for sinking funds.” We’ll talk about sinking funds a little bit upcoming in this episode. “However, we don’t currently automate 529 contributions or IRA contributions. Still not sure which approach is better, but I do find that not automating everything actually requires you to think about it every month as opposed to a set-it-and-forget-it mindset. I think there may be some benefit to that, depending on how you’re wired.” Building off what Matt said, Brian says, you know what, for some things, set-it-and-forget-it is great when you think about 401k contributions, 529, IRA contributions, but for some other things, maybe not so much if you like to have that reminder of exactly what you’re doing.
And Brandon, the last one from our YFP Facebook group, says so when we don’t see it, the importance for him of automation is that “When we don’t see it in the checking, then we don’t spend it.” And Jess and I have noticed the same exact thing. First day of the month comes, auto-withdraw to a separate savings account, different funds, I’ll talk about those here in a minute, boom. Whatever’s left over, that becomes our monthly spending in our budget. But we have already funded our goals because we know the reality that if it sits in our checking account, we’re going to end up spending it. So if it sits in our checking account, we’re going to end up spending it.
So let’s now move into where exactly to get started with this process. We’ve heard from those in the YFP Facebook group. And if you’re not yet a part of that community, you’re missing out — great conversations, come on over to the YFP Facebook group, we’d love to have you a part of that group and a part of the conversation.
So where do you get started? For me, it comes down to two major things: goal-setting and budgeting. Both of which we’ve talked about in the YFP podcast as well on the YFP blog, and if you’ve heard us speak at a live event, you know for us, goal-setting and budgeting are absolutely critical to having a solid financial plan. Now, let’s take a step — and I think goal-setting can be an overwhelming process, but just like you were taught in pharmacy school, when it comes to setting your financial goals, they have to specific. They have to be measurable. They have to be action-oriented. They have to be realistic. They have to be time-oriented. You’ve heard of SMART goals before, right? And they also, in our opinion, they have to have a “why” behind them. What is the motivation for why you’re going to achieve that goal? Now, you all know as you’re working with patients, maybe you’re working with a diabetic patient, trying to get them to make a lifestyle change, achieve an A1C goal, whatever you’re doing, it’s the same thing when we talk about our financial plan. We have to put behavioral pieces, we have to make conscious choices, and we have to have those motivations, specifics, that measurable component, the time-oriented piece, we’re going to have a higher likelihood of achieving that goal. So whether it’s helping a patient with their diabetes or helping yourself with your own financial plan, goal-setting is a critical part. And the other piece of this, which I’ll mention here in a minute, is that when you work on your monthly budget, your monthly budget is simply an execution of your goals.
So for those of you that are listening to this — and I know many of you are sitting here right now, thinking, I feel so overwhelmed with all of these different competing priorities that are out there. I’ve mentioned several of them already. We’ve talked about emergency funds before, we’ve talked about getting credit card paid off before, we’ve talked about making sure you have a solid retirement savings plan in place. What about your student loans and kids college? And the list goes on and on. And you have to first put all of those things on the table and say, OK, I have all of these goals, all of these competing priorities, which of these are the ones that I’m going to go after first? Maybe you’re somebody that says, you know, I’m going to go all in on this one goal, and then I’m going to move to the next one because I know that if I tried to focus on many different things, I tend to get overwhelmed and really just end up spinning my wheels. So some of you may say, you know what, I’ve got credit card debt, and I’m going to go all in on my credit card, knock that out, and then I’m going to move on to something else. Now, others of you listening may say, you know what, I think I can handle more than one goal at the same time, so now I need to look at the top two or three or four goals to make sure that I’m achieving these things in the right order. And I would reference you back to Episode 026, we talked about baby stepping into a financial plan, specifically around emergency funds and credit card debt as the two areas that you want to — more often than not — focus on first. So if you’re hearing this thinking about, I don’t even know where to get started, go back to Episode 026, Baby Stepping into a Financial Plan, I think that will help you get along the path to coming up with how you could prioritize these goals.
So you lay out all of the goals on your paper, and you start to prioritize them. And I literally like to put a number by them. So maybe it’s credit card debt, 1. Emergency fund, 2. Student loans, 3. Whatever the goals that you’re working on. Then you move into the budgeting process. Now, I’m not going to go into detail here on this episode about the budgeting process because we’ve chronicled it before on previous episodes. I’d point you — we have a great budgeting resource at YourFinancialPharmacist.com/budget. Again, that’s YourFinancialPharmacist.com/budget where we have a template, an Excel template, that will walk you through step-by-step how to create a zero-based budget to achieve those goals that we just discussed. I also would reference you to, we have a blog post out there at YourFinancialPharmacist.com, “The Five Steps to Creating Your Best Budget.” So both of those resources we’ll link to those in the show notes, I think will be a great starting point to make sure you can execute your goals through that monthly zero-based budgeting process. Now, if you take the time to sit down and do a zero-based budget and really work through this process, what you will come to at the end of that budgeting process is you’ll determine your total take-home pay, you’ll determine your necessary expenses, you’ll determine your discretionary or nice-to-have expenses, and then you’ll come up with a number that is determined to be your disposable income. Essentially, what amount of money do you have left over each and every month, each and every pay period, that you can allocate towards your financial goal. So if we did the goal-setting process and then we worked through the budgeting process, you may say, OK, at the end of the month, I’ve got $1,000 left over after I pay all my necessary and discretionary expenses. I’ve got $1,000 left over, and here are the three goals that I want to work on. Boom. That’s where the automation begins to happen. So if you were to say, you know what, I’ve got $1,000 left over, and I want to start doing two things. I want to pay off my credit card debt, and I want to build an emergency fund. Maybe you take that $1,000, auto-withdraw the first of the month $500 goes to your credit card bill as one example, $500 goes into a long-term savings account to save for an emergency fund. That decision is now out of your hands, you’ve identified your goals, you’ve set the budget, and now your goals are on automatic. And that provides an incredible amount of peace and confidence when it comes to your financial plan.
Sponsor: So two big pieces to get started here: setting those goals and then getting that budgeting piece in place so you know what that disposable income is, and you know exactly where you’re going to put that money. Now, once we have those two pieces in place, we can then begin to think about the actual processes for automation, and we’ll talk more specifically about where you can put the money in different areas when it comes to automating your financial plan.
I want to take a brief moment before we jump into the second part of the show and to highlight today’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, which is Script Financial. Now, you’ve heard us talk about Script Financial before on the show. YFP team member Tim Baker, who’s also a certified fee-only financial planner is owner of Script Financial. Now, Script Financial comes with my highest recommendation. Jess and I use Tim Baker and his services through Script Financial, and I can advocate for the planning services that he provides and the value of fee-only financial planning advice, meaning that when I’m paying Tim for his services, I am paying him directly for his advice and to help Jess and I with our financial plan. I’m not paying him for commissions, I am not paying him for products or services that may ultimately cloud or bias the advice that he’s giving me. So Script Financial specifically works with pharmacy clients. So if you’re somebody who’s overwhelmed with student loans or maybe you’re confused about how to invest and adequately save for retirement, or maybe you’re frustrated with just the overall progress of your financial plan, I would highly recommend Tim Baker and the services that he’s offering over at Script Financial. You can learn more today by going over to ScriptFinancial.com. Again, that’s ScriptFinancial.com.
Tim Ulbrich: OK, welcome back. In the second half of this episode, we’re going to talk about the areas specifically that you can consider for automation, which builds upon the discussion we talked about in the first half of the episode of the goals that you’re setting. And then I will walk you through step-by-step exactly how I think you can set up your automation of your financial plan and more specifically, I’ll show you exactly what Jess and I are doing with our own financial plan when it comes to automation.
So let’s talk about the different areas that you can set up for automation. And lots of these came from personal experience, from Tim and Tim — I know that they do also, YFP team members Tim Baker and Tim Church, as well as what I’ve heard from other pharmacists and those within the YFP Facebook group. Now, one we already mentioned in the beginning comments from the YFP Facebook group, areas of automation of course would be your monthly bills. So this, for me, is more out of convenience than anything else, so I don’t look at automating my monthly bills as being a point of, say, strategy as I do that it’s one less thing that I need to work on in terms of writing a check, making sure that that’s all set and ready to go. And that’s automatically happening each and every month.
Now, to build on what Matt and Brian said in the earlier comments, I, too, am someone that does not automate all of my monthly bills. And the reason is when it comes to those bills that I know fluctuate — water, for example, could be cell phone usage if there’s potentially overage charges — any bill that I know may have variance based on usage, I like to see that and track that and to be able to identify any discrepancies that may occur. Now, if I have bills that I know are the same each and every month and that’s not necessarily going to change, then for me, automation on bills really becomes a point of convenience. So area No.1, of course, would be bills.
Area No. 2 is student loans. And one of the things that Brandon said in our Facebook group is that automation is a must when it comes to student loans if you’re going for the loan forgiveness program. There, he’s referring to the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program. That way, you are for sure making on-time payments. And Brandon, I think that’s great wisdom there because when it comes to Public Service Loan Forgiveness — and really, in my opinion, any student loan payment — you certainly do not want to have delayed payments for a series of reasons. One, if you’re in Public Service Loan Forgiveness, those then will not be qualifying payments. And then otherwise, you just don’t want delayed payments to be impacting your credit score, your credit rating in any significant way. So I think automation with student loans is great. That’s one where I’m thinking a little bit more about strategy, making sure that I have a plan, I’ve worked through my goals, I’ve worked through the budget, I’ve determined that this much each and every month, I can put toward my student loans. Boom. I’m putting that on automation, and I’m paying my loan servicing company on-time, right out of my paycheck, first thing before I hope that I have that money left over at the end of the month. The other thing I think that’s important to note with student loans and automation is that when it comes to refinancing your student loans, you’ll notice that the various quotes that you’ll get from the refinance lenders, those private companies, is they will typically give you a quote with the assumption that they’re giving you some discount to automate those payments, to set up the autopay on that. So if you do not automate those payments, then you may not get that quote that they’re advertising. So if you need more information on refinancing or have questions about what I just said there, head on over to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/refinance, we have a great page, great resources about where to get started with refinancing, who it’s for, who it’s not for, and if you’re ready to get started, companies that you can pull quotes from that we recommend and that our YFP community gets cash bonuses for.
So area No. 1 was bills, area No. 2 was student loans, area No. 3, for me, is college savings. So here, I’m thinking about 529 plans. And similar to retirement savings, which would be the fourth area, whether that’s 401k’s, 403b’s, Roth IRAs, whatever that would be, now, we’re really talking about automating the savings for the future. So you may look and say, OK, I’ve got three children. I’ve determined that I really want to start saving for kids’ college, and I’m going to start at $50 a month, $100 a month, $150 bucks a month. And you can set up a 529 plan where not only does it auto-withdraw the money each and every month, which then also gives you a deduction on your state income taxes, but it also then will auto-determine where your money’s going in terms of the allocation. So example, for my Ohio 529 plan for my kids, I have I think it’s $100-150 per month that goes toward each kid. And then from there, that $100 or $150 is being distributed in five different investing funds that I have set up automatically. So not only is the money going into the account, but then it’s automatically being invested in those accounts. When it comes to retirement savings, Brandon from the Facebook group says, “I have my retirement set to take out 15% with the employer matching 5%. And what we know from some of the studies that are out there is that the average automatic deferral rate for an employee is only about 6%. And we talked on previous episodes about probably needing closer to 15-20%, depending on your individual situation, needing 15-20% over the course of your career to achieve your long-term savings goals. So 6% is probably not going to cut it. And I think what Brandon’s doing with 15% automatic withdrawal, out-of-sight, out-of-mind, employer matching 5%, obviously then he’s getting closer to that 20% or is getting to that 20% goal. And I think this is an important one because you think about the evolution of retirement savings over time. What used to be more of a traditional pension model is now almost — for most listening — is probably 100% on your back in terms of the responsibility, whether it’s a 401k, a 403b, a Roth IRA, some combination thereof. We have to take the ownership and the work, and I think automation of retirement savings is a great one.
Now, the last one that I want to talk about, which I think is a really tangible for the listeners to get started today is setting up a series of what we call sinking funds. Now, these are established based on the set of goals that you have. So examples of sinking funds that I would throw out there could be an emergency fund, maybe it’s vacation, it could be setting up a sinking fund for purchasing a car or a car repair fund. It could be a gifts fun, so whether that’s birthday gifts throughout the year, Mother’s Day, Father’s Day, Christmas gifts, etc. It could be a sinking fund for a home down payment. Maybe it’s a separate sinking fund for home repairs. Maybe if you’re somebody who has significant medical expenses, you have a separate sinking fund for medical expenses. So what I’m trying to drive home here, the point with sinking funds, is that once you determine the areas and the priorities, instead of having all of this money in one lump sum in a checking or savings account, you start to separate out these funds into separate accounts, and you name them for specifically the goal that you’re trying to achieve: emergency fund, vacation, car, gifts, down payment, home repairs, medical expenses, etc. And what we know when it comes to behavioral finance is that once you name a fund something, you’re more likely to achieve the goal because it’s not in a general pot or pool of money that you lose track of in terms of where it’s going, and then obviously, you’re more likely to spend that money.
So what does this actually look like? And I mentioned before that Tim Baker, owner of Script Financial, helped Jess and I get this set up just a few months. We actually have several of these funds that are set up with an Ally, Ally.com, which is one example that you can use, many others you could do, even with your own banking institution. And so once we set a prioritized list of our goals with the dollar amounts, which, of course, came from the goal setting and the budgeting process, we then — after the budgeting process — we came up with and said, OK, each and every month, we have this total amount of discretionary, disposable income that we can assign to our goals. We then listed our goals out on paper and then based on that total dollar amount, we then said, OK, each and every month, we’re going to put x dollars toward giving, x dollars toward gifts, x dollars toward vacation, x dollars toward home maintenance. And so then what happens is each and every month on the first of the month, those dollar amounts are auto-withdrawn from our paycheck, and the rest of our income becomes what we spend for the rest of the month on groceries and all other expenses for the month out of our day-to-day checking.
So for me, there’s four basic steps here. Is No. 1, Step No. 1 is you have to have a list of prioritized goals with dollar amounts attached to them. No. 2 is you have to be able to know what that disposable income is that you have available each and every month so you can assign those dollar amounts to the goals that you’ve listed out. No. 3 is you then need to create and set up a long-term savings sinking funds account. So for us, what this looked like and it only took about 10-15 minutes for us to set this up is if I log into my Ally.com account, I have an interest checking account, which is basically the base account that we use where we need to spend money out of and then have a debit card if I need to use it. And then I have a series of separate sub-accounts. I have an emergency fund account, I have a giving account, I have a gifts account, a vacation account, and then we have a home maintenance account. And then Step No. 4 is you put those on auto-withdraw. So once you identify the list of goals with the dollar amounts, once you set up the separate sinking funds and you know exactly how much you’re going to put towards those, then you can set up the auto-withdraw so your paycheck into your checking account, once it hits your checking account, it’s an auto-withdrawal into your long-term sinking funds and those sinking accounts.
So that’s the process that we use to put our financial plan on automation, and as I began the episode and talked about why, for us, it’s about the intentionality. It’s about knowing that when it comes — when push comes to shove, if that money’s just sitting in our checking account, more likely than not going to spend it. So it puts our financial goals on automatic, and it allows us to be on the path towards achieving those goals each and every month.
One last point I would make here is that for me, the importance here of automation also comes to an important point of having accountability throughout this process, whether that’s a spouse or significant other, whether that’s a friend, whether that’s a financial planner, somebody that can keep you accountable each and every month, each and every quarter, whatever it be, to check in and say, Hey, we said these were the goals. What’s changed? What’s different? How is the progress going in terms of achieving those goals?
So I hope this episode has been hopefully a moment of inspiration, maybe even empowerment to say, think about your goals, what are those goals, how much do you want to put toward those goals each and every month, what’s the prioritization of those goals? And then setting up the sinking fund accounts to automate those goals each and every month.
So as always, thank you so much for joining us on today’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. We appreciate you listening each and every week, and as always, we would welcome any ideas that you have for future episodes. So you can shoot us an email at [email protected] or jump on over to the YFP Facebook group, and we would love to hear your ideas and input for future episodes of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. That’s for today’s episode. Have a great rest of your week.
On Episode 056 of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, Tim Ulbrich puts Tim Church and Tim Baker on the spot with your student loan questions in a rapid fire format. If you are looking to get started with a game plan to tackle your own student loans, check out the YFP free Student Loan Quick Start Guide at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/studentloanguide
Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to Episode 056 of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Excited, this is a rarity. Excited to be alongside Tim Baker and Tim Church as we record in-person here as we’re in Rootstown, Ohio for the weekend doing some strategic planning for YFP. We’re excited about all of the excited content and resources we’ve got planned for you for the rest of 2018 and ‘19. So a rarity to have the three of us together. So Tim Church, back here at your roots in Rootstown, Ohio from your time here at NEOMed. How’s it feel to be back?
Tim Church: It feels great. So many changes here at the school. And everything that I got to miss out on once I left, right?
Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. I mean, we have a Dunkin Donuts now in town. That’s like legit stuff, right? So for those of you that aren’t familiar with NEOMed and Rootstown, Ohio, I think we have three traffic lights, about 7,000 people. So when Dunkin Donuts comes into town, it’s a big deal. And Tim Baker, what’s your takeaway here on Cleveland and some of the things we’ve been doing this weekend?
Tim Baker: Oh, man. I’ve been doing the Tim & Tim tour here. After the Fourth of July, I drove up to Tim Church’s hometown and spent some time with Papa and Mama Church. And they were really nice. And got to see where Tim grew up. We were crushing some work there and then drove down to Rootstown and got to meet, Tim, your boys for the first time, Sam, Everett and Levi, who are awesome, and spend some time with Jess. And great hospitality, but yeah, I’m loving the Tim Ohio tour. Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, it’s been a ton of fun. And we had a great night last night, shoutout to the RealEstateRPH.com, Nate Hedrick. We had him on previously on the show, and we’re planning some greta content around home buying and real estate and real estate investing. So stay tuned. Throughout the rest of this year and next year, I think we’ve got some really exciting stuff for you. And we’ve heard loud and clear that home buying and real estate investing is a topic that we know that you, the YFP community, are interested in. So stay tuned for some of that coming forward. So here’s the format of what we’re going to do with this episode. I’m going to put Tim Church and Tim Baker on the hot seat. We’ve taken questions the Facebook group, we’ve got questions into our email at [email protected], all questions related to student loans. So we’re going to do a rapid-fire Q&A related to student loans. We’re going to throw out a question, we’re going to answer it quickly and move on. Obviously, if you have other questions, things that we didn’t answer, shoot us an email — [email protected], and if you’re not yet a part of the YFP Facebook group, make sure to head on over there today and to join that community. Alright, Tim Baker, first question from Katrina in our YFP Facebook group. The question is, what’s the best way to balance high student loan balances? I’m talking multiple hundreds of thousands with other financial goals, i.e. savings, investment, retirement, down payment, so on. What are your thoughts?
Tim Baker: Yeah, this is a great question. I think it’s one of the ones we get often. And one of the things I don’t see listed there would be the emergency fund, which I think, you know, we talked about I think in Episode 026, baby stepping into a financial plan, so important to have that there. But you know, Tim and Tim, it’s kind of like one of those things where if a patient comes to you and they’re talking to you about what’s going on in their medical history or their life, it’s hard for you to like give advice without kind of the full picture. So you know, I think it’s hard for me to answer these questions in a silo. But you know, I think really trying to get to the core of what you’re trying to do with your finances and really in life. And there’s a need for prioritization there. Like you have to figure out, OK — because I think what often happens is people come in and speak with me as clients, and they say, I want to do a thousand things. And I’m like, OK, well let’s cut to the core and really focus on one, two, maybe three things to really be zeroes in on. And then knock those goals down and move on. So obviously, a lot of people, you know, student loans are a big thing. So I think it’s kind of taking that inventory of what you have and who you have to pay back, but also the inventory of how you feel about the loans. You know, and comparing that to a lot of these other financial goals that we’re talking about. In the student loan course that we have, you know, we have a strategy specifically for that high debt-to-income ratio and how you should tackle those loans in that situation. And it’s a tough strategy to kind of get to because there are a lot of different moving parts with that in terms of how you optimize that and you know, the whole forgiveness piece and things that are surrounding those programs. So I think ultimately, talk to an objective third party, which could be, you know, a partner, a spouse, maybe a financial planner, and really kind of cut to the core of what is important and how you want to take down the student loans among all of those other goals that were outlined in the question.
Tim Ulbrich: So Tim Church, as I look at Katrina’s question, I can’t help but think, this was really the situation for you and Andrea. So very high student loan balances, and obviously you have other things that you guys want to do — retirement, down payment. But you guys have really chosen — you’re in a renting situation, you’ve really chosen to go all in on your student loans. I mean, what was the thought process there and how did you guys work through to get to that solution to say, hey, we’re not going to really balance all of these things, but we’re going to try to do this one thing and do it really well and get these loans paid off?
Tim Church: Yeah, I think that that’s a great question. And what we kind of thought is yes, it’s going to take us a number of years to really get through all of the loans. So I knew it wasn’t going to be a 2-3 year solution, this is going to be more of around a 4-year+ solution. And given the situation that we were already in, really our two major goals was let’s put some money towards investing and then also be very aggressive with the student loan debt. And so what we’ve been doing is getting the match through our employers and then also maximizing our Health Savings Account because there’s a lot of great options there for tax savings but also the ability to invest what’s in the HSA.
Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. Alright. So Katrina, thank you for question. Second question, Tim Church, comes from Alex via email. I’m currently enrolled in PSLF, however, I only have about $100,000 in debt. Could you provide any insight into when making the minimum payments over 10 years as opposed to aggressively paying them off, such as in three years, ends up being similar. What are your thoughts there?
Tim Church: So first off, I think this is a really cool situation to be in because you have student loan debt that’s less than a typical pharmacist would. You know, we look at the average is around $160,000 and even higher for those who went to private institutions. So first off, that’s pretty cool to be in that situation. I think the other question you have to ask in this situation is what is your goal? And do you really want to have student loans around for 10 years, even if you’re going into the program versus kind of knocking those out and moving on with your life. What’s interesting is that if you look a three-year versus a 10-year PSLF, the total amount that’s actually paid ends up being fairly similar when you do some basic surface calculations. So if you make payments based on your adjusted gross income over 10 years versus paying really aggressively over those three years. So it’s about $2,000 or more difference that you’re going to pay extra if you want to knock them out in three years. And so that could be very attractive to say, hey, my student loan debt’s done. It’s out of my life, I can move on. But you also have to look out, OK, what would be the benefits of doing PSLF and going that route. And so if you look at on a surface level, you could say, OK, the overall payout could be similar, but are there things that you could do to lower your adjusted gross income? And so we talked on Episode 018 about maximizing the benefits of PSLF, and we really go into where you can contribute to your 401k, you can contribute to an HSA and do some other things that actually lower your AGI so your total amount that you’re going to pay over that 10 years could be a lot less than if you did nothing to sort of do that. So I think it’s very interesting, and there’s a lot of calculations from a math standpoint to say, what is the actual difference? But I think you have to really add in those emotions as well. So I don’t think there’s really a clear answer to this. And a lot of times, we’re seeing people that have very high debt loads where it kind of points people to say, wow, PSLF definitely is the better choice and there’s a lot more savings that’s there.
Tim Ulbrich: OK, so our next question comes from Jordan via email. After graduating from pharmacy school in May 2017 with $265,000 in loans, I’ve been working tirelessly for the past nine months at two hospitals and saving tremendously. Currently, I’ve saved over $90,000 to pay for future expenses such as a house or car. My student loans are through the PSLF program and are fairly cheap in regards to my monthly income. I’m curious to your thoughts on paying for a house or car in cash in the future or continuing to save in case the program falls through. So Tim Baker, what are your thoughts on this one? Tim Baker: Yeah. I love this question because I love that this particular person, Jordan, that you didn’t kind of buy into the whole, hey, we’re pharmacists, we make good incomes and kind of resting on your laurels. Obviously, you’ve been hustling. I think that’s a great thing. I think with regards to this question, again, I’m looking at it from kind of the lens of a financial planner and looking at the big picture. You know, I see $90,000 in liquid assets, you know, maybe some financial planners would say, invest all of that. Again, that kind of goes back to the question that we had from Michael in Ohio about follow the money. But I think, again, it all goes back to goals. What is the goal here? Is it to maximize the amount that’s forgiven? Is it to get out from underneath the loans as quickly as possible? Is it to minimize what you’re financing between a house and a car? So I think those are super important. To me, I think the exercise from there is to really earmark that $90,000 at present and really going forward, for those particular goals. So if it’s to peel away $60,000 for a down payment on a house — and I think as a team, we believe a 20% down payment is best practice to avoid PMI and really have a decent equitable stake in your home, is I think the best thing for the balance sheet in home buying. I think cash can be king, especially if you’re in a competitive market. Maybe you earmark another portion of that towards a car, and I think referencing Episode 047, Best Practices for Car Buying, which Tim Ulbrich did, I think would be a great place to start there and really not, you know, let some of those dollars evaporate in that transaction I think is important. But I think also, one of the things that, you know, for the question kind of pertaining to PSLF and its longevity, you know, I think from — and this is kind of my opinion — is that I think that the PSLF program, it does have legs. Meaning I think with some of the things that are going on in Congress and earmarking dollars for kind of the PSLF mishaps, which, you know, have been documented quite a bit in the news. I think that at the very least, if we decide, if the government decides, hey, this isn’t a program going forward, they would at least grandfather you in. But again, that is me. And I’m not the one basically making the budget decisions. But I think with that money, if that were a concern — and again, this is also something that we talk about in the student loan course — is maybe you earmark part of that money and then contributions going forward into a fund that can kind of offset that, that is kind of like a rainy day fund in case the PSLF program, you know, falls through. So that would — again, it kind of goes back to the goals and really parsing those out and trying to figure out the best way to deploy those liquid assets that you’ve accumulated, you know, very aggressively and then to have a plan for that going forward in terms of where are you going to contribute that. And I’m a big proponent of basically segmenting those things out, whether it’s a car fund, a home fund, an index fund for, you know, your rainy day PSLF falls through scenario. So that’s kind of where I would start. Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and just to kind of shoutout to Jordan, to do the work to save up $90,000 in cash, thinking about some of these strategic things around house or car or being ready if PSLF were to fall through, that’s no small feat. And obviously, in the question, he references hustling for the last nine months, working two hospital jobs, so good work, Jordan. Obviously, you’ve got a student loan situation that you’re trying to get out in front of. But certainly it appears like the work ethic is there, and the future is going to be bright. So Tim Church, Jessica from the Facebook group says, if loans are still deferred while still in school, is it worth paying on the interest? What is the best strategy?
Tim Church: So I think the answer is maybe, but likely yes. So if you look at federal loans, which typically have interest rates of 6-8% and if we’re talking graduate school loans or professional school loans, these are going to be, by and far, they’re going to be unsubsidized loans, which means the second that those loans are activated, are dispersed, every day, interest is accumulating on those loans while you’re in school. So it just keeps building and building and building, and eventually will capitalize once you are post-grace period. And so I think that anything you can do to first off minimize the debt in the first place in the amount that you’re going to take, it is something that you should do. But then yeah, if you get access to other funds or find opportunities, then of course, making those kind of payments are going to help reduce that interest that’s going to eventually capitalize. Now, the one caveat with that is that if you feel that you’re going to be pursuing PSLF or even non-PSLF forgiveness, then it may not make as much sense to actually put extra money towards the loans because the reality is is that if you’re all-in on one of those programs, you want to minimize that you actually are going to pay out-of-pocket over time. And that’s just the way to maximize the effectiveness of the program. And so, if that was your strategy, any additional income or funds actually may be going towards investments or some of your other goals that you’re going to pursue and then just sort of after that grace period, you’re going to figure out ways how you actually minimize those student loan payments. And I think a lot of people may be in the grace period right now, we just had a lot of pharmacy graduates complete their PharmD program. And I think it’s so important that you have some sort of game plan in place because right now, all of that interest is getting ready to capitalize once that grace period ends. And so having a strong game plan and knowing exactly what you’re going to do and how you’re going to attack your loans is so important. You know, because Tim Ulbrich, you and I, we talked about how a lot of mistakes that we made just because we didn’t have a game plan right from the get-go, and we kind of had to learn from some of the mistakes that we made. But I think we do such a great job in the student loan course to just really helping you get a strategy in place and feel comfortable about it, but then really taking it to the next level to make sure that you are getting the most savings. So if you’re interested in checking that out, you can go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/student-loan-course.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more, Tim Church, about being intentional in this period. And you know, putting myself back in the shoes of graduation comes, there’s that excitement around graduation, you’re thinking about trying to pass the NAPLEX and the MPJE, maybe you’re starting residency. If not, you’re starting your job. And I think in that time period, there’s so many pieces and parts and moving things that are going on that it’s easy to just wander through that and all of a sudden, you get that notification for first payment, and you’re like, what am I actually going to do, right? We’ve got all these federal options, we’ve got refinance, forgiveness or not, and so I think really being intentional in this period — residency, no residency, doesn’t matter — new grads of saying what’s the one best repayment option and strategy for my personal situation? And as Tim Church mentioned, I think we do a great job of that inside the student loan course at YourFinancialPharmacist.com/student-loan-course. OK, Tim Baker, question from Miranda in the Facebook group — and I might be setting you up for failure to try to answer this depth of a question in a rapid-fire format, and we’ve talked about this before in terms of balancing investments with paying off student loans — but Miranda says, with talking to my preceptors, a lot of them recommend paying yourself first or saving. Being a numbers person, I’d be interested in learning a formula for what percentage of income should be dedicated to savings, emergency fund, the loans, expenses, etc. What are your thoughts?
Tim Baker: Oh man, this is such a tough one. And I hope listeners are not getting upset with me because I’m not giving like this is what you should do, and technically, I can’t do that. It’s so hard because, you know, I think people want to know like where do I fit compared to like — what am I spending on my cat or dining out versus like the norm of what you see? And I kind of have those ideas in my mind, but if you’re at a different stage of life, took more of a nontraditional route through school, I mean, it could be completely different. So you know, I actually just got done reading the book, “You Need a Budget,” which is written by — I think his name is Jesse Mecham, which is the You Need a Budget founder, which is kind of a budgeting tool that rivals Mint. And you know, he kind of echoes this same point is that, again, there is no cookie cutter solution to this. Everyone is going to be a lot different than the next person over, even it could be in similar situations. So I think, you know, for me, if I could kind of look very strategically and high level at a case, it’s obviously, again, it’s like, what are the goals? What are the feelings towards the debt? And then beyond that — you know, I think that drives the train a lot — but then beyond that, it’s like, make sure you have that emergency fund. And it could be kind of like a base-level emergency fund, so maybe $1,000 covers a lot. Most emergency funds, if there are emergency situations if you’re single, it’s $5,000. But then you know, building upon that, but then beyond that, make sure you’re absolutely getting the match from your employer and then get that free money. But from there, it’s kind of like a choose-your-own adventure. And again, I think that’s where kind of peeling back some of the layers of what’s important is so vital because it’s really going to drive your decisions. And I think it’s easier to kind of adhere to a plan when you say, OK, I am doing this because of y in the future. And I think those high-level things are make sure the consumer debt is taken care of, make sure you have an adequate — and I put “adequate” in air quotes — emergency fund that you feel comfortable with because the textbook is going to say 3-6 months of those non-discretionary monthly expenses, so if you have rent of $2,000 and a loan payment of $2,000, that’s $4,000 right there just in that, you know, and if you’re single, times that by 6. So that’s pretty substantial. But I think, again, this is why stepping into it and being intentional about this, there is no percentage. But I can — if I look at your situation, I can tell you, yeah, that is high and maybe cut back or — again, the other piece of this is how can you grow your income? How can you look at Jordan’s situation and hustle and elbow grease. And you look at the Patterson episode with Adam and Brittany Patterson just crushing their debt because of like the extra shifts, so yeah, there’s a lot of nuances, and I hope some of that helps. But there is no cookie cutter; there is no right answer.
Tim Ulbrich: Good stuff. So Tim Church, Dalton from the Facebook group — and Dalton, we had on Episode 048, Mo’ Money Mo’ Problems — Making the Financial Transition into the New Practitioner Life, if you haven’t yet checked out that episode — he has a question around refinancing. What should I look for in a refinancing company such as if they have prepayment penalties? And so when I think refinance expert, I think Tim Church. So talk us through what people should be looking at when it comes to refinancing.
Tim Church: Yeah, so I think there’s so many different companies out there, and it’s a very crowded space. And so a lot of people, they’re spending a lot of money to market to people, especially pharmacists who have large debt loads to get you to refinance your loans. So there’s definitely some things you want to be looking out for to make sure you protect yourself. And especially because there’s been a lot of scams around consolidation companies and people thought they were with reputable companies, but the reality was that they were defrauding people. And so you have to protect yourself. So a couple ways to look at that to make sure is the Better Business Bureau to check them out to make sure that the company is No. 1, that they’re legit and that they don’t have substantial complaints against them and making sure that you’re comfortable with a lot of those reviews and the rating that they’re giving them. NerdWallet actually has something called a watch list where they’re putting any companies with very shady business practices or have lawsuits against them on a database, so I think that’s another place to check. So if you’ve never heard of the company before, those are probably things you want to check out for. Some other things that I think are really important — there really should be no fee for you to refinance your loans. They’re actually competing for your business, and they actually — what they’re doing is giving you money to come over to them and to be part of their community and their program. So they actually offer cash bonuses to you, but there should be no fee that you’re actually paying. The other thing I think is important is that there’s no prepayment penalty. So if you say that you’re going to refinance for a term of five years, seven years or 10 years, but you want to pay that off faster, then there should be no penalty for you. Now, obviously, the way that they make their money is at the interest that you pay each and every month. And so if you pay off your loans faster, obviously they’re going to get less money than intended originally. But most companies, I haven’t seen any issues with this that they have no special clauses or anything, so you’re going to be OK for the most part if you want to pay it off faster than the term. So some of the other things that you want to look out for — now, obviously if you’re pursuing any of the forgiveness programs, you do not want to refinance because you’re going to automatically disqualify yourself for any of those programs. You have to keep your loans in the federal system. And then the other thing, a lot of people, they talk about when you move your loans out of the federal system into a refinance company that you’re losing all of those protections. And the idea is that yes, is that there are some things that you’re not going to get, and that’s going to be income-based repayments for the most part. So if something happens to your income, and you can’t make that monthly payment, and you have to go down to some small payment or you want to put it in deferment or forbearance, that may not be offered by a refinance company, so it’s something that you want to look out for. And then the other things is that loans within the federal system will be discharged if you die or become permanently disabled. Well, that’s not the case for every refinance company, but there are some that still have that protection. So something just to keep in mind if you have strong policies in place that may not be as much of a concern to you but something that you still want to take a look at.
Tim Ulbrich: Good stuff. So 29 and 30, episodes 029 and 030, Refinancing Student Loans Part 1 and Part 2, we talked a lot about that topic, so if you’re a listener who’s thinking, is refinancing for me? Is it not for me? Who should do it? Who should not do it? What does that even mean? Head on over and check out episodes 029 and 030. And we’ve also built out a great refinance resource page at YourFinancialPharmacist.com/refinance where we have a guide that can walk you through a lot of what Tim Church just talked through, making sure you’re really answering the question, who is refinancing for? Is it right for me or is it not? And then ultimately, start to get some quotes and get the cash bonus if you were to pursue that in the future. So again, that’s YourFinancialPharmacist.com/refinance. So Tim and Tim, great stuff, thank you so much for coming on, excited that we could do this in person. We’re hoping to do much more of this in the future. And again, if you are hearing these questions around student loans and you’re trying to think where should I get started? Check out the YFP free student loan quick start guide at YourFinancialPharmacist.com/student-loan-guide. Again, that’s YourFinancialPharmacist.com/studen-loan-guide. And if you have a question that you would like to have answered on a future episode of the YFP podcast, send us an email at [email protected]. That’s all for today’s episode. Have a great rest of your week.
On Episode 055 of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, Tim Baker and I talk about the variety of ways in which financial planners get paid and why you should care about how a financial planner charges (Hint: It can impact the quality of the advice that you are getting).
Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to Episode 055 of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Excited to be here again with the one and only Tim Baker. Tim, did you see the love Jess was giving you on the Facebook page today? I mean, seriously.
Tim Baker: I know. It’s pretty awesome. Like I said, I finally got to meet Jess for the first time in California when we went out to speak to USC, and it was awesome. And yeah, thanks, Jess, for the shoutout. I know you’re an avid listener of the podcast because I think you guys are en route to puppy-ville, that was the bet. So yeah, it was pretty awesome.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, puppy is coming here in a few weeks. So we were just talking last night, actually, about getting excited for puppy to come. And last time I had a real puppy was back growing up, I had a golden retriever. That’s what we’re getting this time, so excited. I think we’re probably underestimating work related to puppy, but so be it, right? You can’t be rational in these situations. Well, what we’re going to do here in Episode 055, we’re going to build off of last week’s episode where you and I talked about your old financial planning firm that you worked for and why you made the jump in 2016 to start Script Financial, obviously a fee-only financial plan for pharmacists. Why fee-only financial planning matters is a lot of what we talked about last time, and so if you haven’t yet done so as a listener, check out Episode 054 because I think that’s a great precursor for what we’re going to talk about today in our conversation here as well. So Tim, why don’t we just bridge that episode and this episode and kick it off with the idea of why somebody should care about how a financial planner charges. And we talked a little bit on the episode last week of, you know, often it can feel like smoke and mirrors, and there’s so many different models that are out there, and we’ll talk through those on this episode as well. But at the end of the day, why should our listeners care about how a financial planner is charging them and how it may impact the advice they’re receiving?
Tim Baker: Yeah, well I think what’s surprising to a lot of people is that majority of advisors out there can put their own interests ahead of their client’s, which — you know, like you said, as someone in healthcare and you’re working with patients, you would think that inherently, that position of trust whether you’re someone in medicine or an attorney or even a financial planner that obviously you’re looking at a very intimate part of someone’s life, that they would be legally bound to act in their client’s best interest. And what a lot of people don’t know is that that’s not true. There was a lot of noise — and it would be noise for financial nerds like me that happened recently with the Department of Labor where they basically wanted to push through this fiduciary role, which basically would force advisors that manage retirement assets — because that’s their jurisdiction is like 401k’s and IRAs — it would force advisors acting in that capacity or advising in that capacity to follow that fiduciary, that best interest standard of care. And a lot of people just don’t know that that’s not — and to be honest, like when I said last episode about not knowing that I wasn’t in the best model, I thought that the suitability standard of care was the best thing. And it’s not. So I think oftentimes, you know, you have to follow the money. And there’s a lot of conflict out there. We referenced that the last time we had done an episode was when we answered Michael’s question — you know, before last episode. His advisor — not that this is right or wrong, but I think there’s a little smoke there — wanted him to basically take the equity in his house, lower his payment and refinance and really invest that. Well, the problem with that is is that because of the way advisors get paid, investments stir the drink in a lot of ways. So you know, most advisors are not going to care about the credit card debt that you have or the fact that you have student debt or that you want to invest in things other than the stock market. They’re really going to care about how can I look at, you know, Tim Ulbrich, the $300,000 or $400,000 that you have in assets and how can I get in, how can I position it so I can benefit — not necessarily benefit — but get them where I can make a profitable business out of working with this particular client. And that, again, that’s not to say that everyone is like that. But I, even myself, you know, when I would look at clients in my own firm, I was like, OK, they have no real assets. They have some cashflow, so maybe I could put them in A Share mutual fund that would pay me 5 — so obviously, like inherently, I want to do what’s in the best interest of my client. But at the same time, I’m like, I also need to earn a living. And for me, it’s like, why even have a system that does that? And I think separating — like going back to that separating the scale of product with the advice that’s given — that has to be the way you go because anything else, human nature’s going to take over. Even if I’m doing well, it’s like, well, we want to add on to our kitchen or whatever. So maybe I sell this annuity to a client that pays me that 8 percent. And I think these are just things that advisors don’t really want to admit. It’s just kind of something that we talk about in closed circles, but it’s human nature, you know? It’s just how it is. And to me, if you can separate the sale of those products with the advice that you give, to me, you’re setting yourself up for success both on the advisor end and the client end, in my opinion.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. And to me, that’s the whole point of why this fee-only thing matters. I mean, why take on those extra biases if they don’t have to be there?
Tim Baker: Right.
Tim Ulbrich: And you said last time, and you articulated well, there is no such thing as bias-free advice. But why not do everything you can to minimize those biases? If I’m a consumer, I really want somebody helping me to look at my best interests across my entire financial plan — not necessarily pick out one part of it because maybe the pricing model of how they’re getting paid, whether that’s insurance, investments, or whatever, may skew their attention in that direction. And you know what stuck out to me? You read “Unshakeable” by Tony Robbins, right?
Tim Baker: Yes.
Tim Ulbrich: So he talks about it at some point in that book — and we can link to “Unshakeable” by Tony Robbins in the show notes — at some point, he gave a percentage. I’m going to say it was less than like 3 or 4% of all financial planners that are actually acting in a fee-only fiduciary-only type of way. Do you remember what that number was? It was low, right?
Tim Baker: I think he used 3%. I typically will say 5 because I’ve heard different. But yeah, I think it’s like 3-5% is that. 3-5% are legally bound to act in their client’s best interest.
Tim Ulbrich: Which, to be honest, as I said last time on the show, as a pharmacist is just mind-blowing. So the statement I usually lead with is most of you that are listening to this podcast right now or attend a talk that we do, whatever be the case, if you’re working with a financial planner, more likely than not they legally are not obligated to act in your best interest. Now, that doesn’t mean they’re bad people. It doesn’t mean they’re giving terrible advice, it means you need to be really vetting that advisor, in my opinion, in a significant way and really asking yourself and taking a step back, ‘Is this person really giving me the best, holistic, as close as can be non-biased advice that I can get?’ And for those that don’t yet have a planner and will ultimately seek one, making sure you’re asking the right questions, which we have in the guide that I referenced there at the beginning of the show — YourFinancialPharmacist.com/financialplanner — asking those questions to make sure you’re finding out whether or not they have that fiduciary type of responsibility. So we really, I hope, made the case in Episode 054 that fee-only matters. So now, let’s work under the assumption that we’re buying into fee-only. But the reality is there’s a whole other layer then of pricing models within even a category of fee-only advisors. So let’s for a moment assume that, you know, commissions are out the picture, so people if they’re fee-only, they’re not getting payment via insurance products or not getting payment via investments. But still, even in terms of how the client is charged, there’s a variation of models. And we touched on these a little bit last time, but I want to lead into and start with the most common one, Assets Under Management, and then work into what you’re doing in terms of net worth and income. And I first want to lead with — and jump in here, Tim, as well — I first want to lead with I’ve talked with so many pharmacists who think they’re getting financial planning for free. And I’ll hear things like, well, I met with so-and-so from, you know, X Big Box Financial Firm, and they offered a financial plan for free. There is no such thing as a free financial plan, right? The money is coming from somewhere now or later, and so now let’s assume fee-only most common pricing model that’s out there is Assets Under Management, at least that I’m familiar with. So talk us through exactly what Assets Under Management is and how that charge works.
Tim Baker: So typically with Assets Under Management, this is where basically, the client has investable assets, meaning, you know, they can roll it over from a 401k or an IRA that they are currently managing or maybe their present advisor is managing. Or maybe it’s an after-tax investment account. So it’s basically divorced or outside of a typical 401k or a 403b. So those are the investable assets. So what the advisor often does is this where you typically will say, you’ll see advisors say, ‘Hey, I have a minimum of a quarter of a million or a half a million.’ So if you don’t have that amount of investable assets, I can’t help you. And typically, what happens is that, you know, in that model, they’ll say, you’ll get a financial planner or maybe sometimes it’s just investment advice. It just depends on what they actually offer, but they’ll say, ‘Hey, for a set fee, a percentage of what I’m actually managing, you can be my client,’ essentially. And that can range anywhere from, you know, .5% on kind of the low end to 2% and up. You know, as an example, if you have $200,000 and you’re moving it over to your advisor to manage, he might do that for $2,000. Now, sometimes that includes comprehensive financial planning, so you’re looking at things outside of just the investment management like insurance and maybe debt management and estate planning and retirement planning and that type of thing. But sometimes it just includes that. So the problem with that model is that especially for a lot of young professionals, you don’t have $100,000 or $200,000 — now, some people will take you no matter what you have, they’ll have no account minimums, but again, that kind of goes back to you have to follow the money. So if you are working with an advisor that works predominantly with people that have half a million and more, and you have $50,000 with your advisor, you’re probably not going to talk to him or her very often. So again, this is kind of because of the advisor is paid based on the investments, they’re investment-centric. So what the Certified Financial Planning Board says is a financial plan are your fundamentals. So that’s going to be your debt, your cash flow, your emergency fund, insurance, investment, tax, retirement, estate. So if they are paid based on the investment, although it’s a big part of the financial plan, it’s only a piece of the financial plan. And sometimes, that investment can really drive the boat. And especially for younger people where they’re just not, they’re not there, it kind of can degrade other parts of the financial plan that they should be focusing on now to get to the point where they have a larger portfolio. So that’s the problem is that typically, there’s not enough there for a younger client to be profitable for that particular advisor. And then I think that the advice is just skewed a la — I think the question with our Ask Tim & Tim with Michael, I think it’s skewed in a sense because the advisor benefits anytime the client puts more into those investments. So what I say when I talk about it is, you know, in an AUM model, Tim, if we record this podcast and you trip and fall over $100,000 walking to your car to go home, that would be great. And it’s more akin to the wealth transfer that’s going to happen from baby boomers. But if you’re working with a financial advisor that charged you based on AUM, it’s in his or her best interest for you to invest all $100,000 in, you know, a mutual fund that he’s managing or that she’s managing.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.
Tim Baker: And that might not be your best interest. Maybe you want to buy that cabin that you and Jess were talking about. Or maybe you guys want to go on that vacation or pay off some debt or pay off the house, you know what I mean?
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, what if I had loans, right?
Tim Baker: Exactly. If you have loans. Or if you’re one of the pharmacists out there that have — I’m seeing a lot more pharmacists with credit card debt, the advisor is not incentivized for you to pay off the credit card debt. They’re incentivized for you to really get as much in the investment, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but they’re incentivized for you to get into the investment so they can raise kind of their percentage of what they’re managing.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think one of the challenges, building on what you said there, one of the challenges I really see, back to your point about the younger clients, as we know, the YFP community, I would say the vast majority of people are within 10 years of graduation, graduating students or making this transition out into this first career phase of the pharmacist life and career. And in my opinion, that’s probably where the most help is needed. You’ve got student loan debt, you’ve got all these transitionary items. I was thinking about all the things you were talking Jess and I through, and we’ve been out 10 years. You know, you’re balancing now that we’re post-student loan debt, we’re balancing investing and life stuff and kids college and savings and all types of things. And if the pricing model is not such that it incentivizes somebody to work with that individual because you may not necessarily have a lot of assets, who is helping that group? And obviously, we believe at YFP very strongly that getting a quick start during that transition period is so successful to being successful long-term with your finances. And so if the industry is built in a traditional AUM model where it’s like, hey, we’ll see you in 20 years, well, what about from now until that point? So and I think your point is so spot-on that if somebody has cash or they’re balancing multiple things, credit card debt, student loan debt, maybe they need a good emergency fund, and AUM model does not incentivize an advisor to build a good emergency fund.
Tim Baker: Right.
Tim Ulbrich: It doesn’t mean they won’t give them that good advice, it’s just again, the model is not built in such a way that it does that. So when I think of AUM, talk us through typically what you’ll see. I mean, is it pretty standard somewhere around 1-1.5% of assets?
Tim Baker: Yeah. You know, it’s funny. I was evaluating a client’s, actually his mom’s portfolio, and her money was a couple hundred thousand dollars was at kind of a broker dealer, independent where I was previously. And the fee that she was charging, she had literally no idea. It was like 1.75.
Tim Ulbrich: Wow.
Tim Baker: On top of the 1+% expense ratio. So the expense ratio, we’ve talked about in the past. It’s basically the funds that she is invested in has a mutual fund manager somewhere on Wall Street that’s managing that fund, takes a percentage out basically to pay himself and to pay the office space on Wall Street and the analyst and all that kind of stuff. So basically, on two counts, she was paying — in my opinion — way more than she needed to. So, you know, I was saying like, in my models, you know, from an expense ratio standpoint, she was paying 1 — I think 1.25. I think you can build a very good portfolio, if not a better portfolio, for less than .1% versus 1.25%. And then she was paying another 1.75 on top of that. So you know, generally I see — and I’ve seen some well-known firms out there charge kind of in that 1-2% area. Typically, in the fee-only world I see more of the kind of 1% is probably pretty prevalent. Now, what a lot of — you know, I mentioned XY Planning Network. What a lot of young planners will do is they’ll charge kind of a flat fee for planning. So they might say, hey, it’s $200, $300, $400 for planning. And then we’ll charge you maybe .5% or even less for AUM investment management. So they kind of delineate their two. And I still think that there is a conflict there, in my opinion, that’s why I don’t do it that way. But then you can kind of go all the way down, you know, the ladder to a service like Betterment, which is the roboadvisor that charges .25% basically, you know, manage it with algorithms and things like that. And by the way, Tim, that is up for Script Financial.
Tim Ulbrich: You’re live!
Tim Baker: Well, I wouldn’t say we’re live. We have the robo that’s set up for us, and I have to figure out — but yeah, it’s pretty close. But for those individuals that — we get a lot of questions about, hey, how do I manage my student loans? And then how do I open up a Roth IRA? We kind of have a solution for that now, that they can do it within 15 minutes and fund it — even less than that. So more to follow on that, but yeah. But you can see anywhere .25% all the way to 2%. But again, it just depends on what you actually get for that because sometimes that 2% includes full financial planning, maybe even tax work, I don’t know, but all the way down to the .25%, which is just kind of the algorithmic, you know, investment model.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think to your point too, to the listeners. Don’t forget about it’s not just the fee to the planner here in an AUM model, Assets Under Management. It’s also the fees on the funds. So if you’re not doing due diligence to make sure you’re in well performing, low cost funds, you could be — I’m sure you’ve seen this in clients — upwards of 1.5% to 2% on advisor fee and then you’re maybe getting hosed another percent on top of that or more on a fund fee. And so we’ve written a couple articles, and we’ll dig them up and link to them in the show notes on the impact of fees. And we’ll also link to in the show notes just a simple savings calculator from BankRate. Just run some examples to see and feel the impact of those fees. I mean, if you were to save $100 a month for 30 years and say it’s 7% and another example, you only got 5% because of somebody’s fees and other things, that’s a big, big deal when it’s all said and done. So everything you can to obviously maximize and hold onto those returns, you want to be doing. So let’s transition here then into your planning model because I remember when you and I met, and I really feel like you’re trailblazing looking at pricing in a different way. I think you tend to trailblaze, that’s just how you roll.
Tim Baker: Mic drop.
Tim Ulbrich: That’s how you roll. But I think it’s really pushing the industry to think differently, and as I think about our group and the YFP community, I think it really is obviously allowing for model that’s in their best interest is a fee-only model, but I also think it’s charge and charging in a way that really makes a whole lot of sense. So talk us through this idea of charging based on net worth and income and how you arrived to that point.
Tim Baker: Yeah. So I would say probably outside of the actual like logo and branding of Script Financial the firm, when I had that epiphany to unapologetically go after pharmacists or design a business that is catered to pharmacists, probably after the branding and maybe even moreso, I spent time thinking about how I would charge, what my pricing model would be because I’m very sensitive to conflict of interest and transparency. I think you have to be — because this is the one career that I can think of — and maybe there’s others out there that I’m missing — but it’s the one career where like my compensation kind of directly flies in the face of like the client’s ability to kind of achieve their goals. It’s kind of like — you know, and I think obviously, the value that you get working with a planner, working with Script Financial, I think exceeds the fee. But to me, I’m super sensitive to those types of conversations and that outlook. So you know, again, I think this was on a podcast that I heard one firm doing it in the Midwest that says, hey, the fee is based on income and net worth. And I think once I kind of wrapped my head around it, I really didn’t — again, I was unapologetic about it. I really didn’t look at any different model because to me, it makes the most sense to me because if I am incentivized to help the client grow their income and net worth and protect their income and net worth, to me, that’s an alignment of interests. I think if we’re both in agreement that those are the two things that kind of show progress and overall financial health, then it’s in my best interest for you to do that while kind of keeping your goals in mind. So I think it — for one, I think it reduces the conflict of interest because, again, in that example, if I’m an AUM type advisor, I’m trying to — whether I want to believe it or not, I’m trying to get the client to invest as much as I can because that’s how my compensation is affected. But for me, the net worth — so when we talk about net worth, to kind of back up, the net worth is all of the assets, so the things that you own, subtract all of the liabilities, the things that you owe. So a quick example — if you have $100,000 in a 401k and you have $200,000 in student loan debt, then your net worth is technically — and that’s all of your assets and your liabilities — technically, your -$100,000 in net worth, which is very typical of how my clients or most of my clients are in that negative net worth area. So I am incentivized to help them dig out of that and get to positive because that’s one of the components in which I charge. So to me, it aligns interest. And I think it’s overall best aligned to comprehensive financial planning. So if an AUM model guy, and I say, ‘Hey, Client, I got you 15% return, theoretically a return on your investment year over year,’ that’s great. But I’m not smart because I believe the market has a mind of its own. I think over the long term, the market will take care of you. But I’m not out there beating the S&P 500 or anything like that. I think that’s foolhardy in the grand scheme of things. So I’m not out there saying, hey, I can beat the market or anything like that. I’m saying, hey, I’m going to help increase your assets, lower your liabilities, while keeping your goals in mind. So I think year over year, if you have a -$100,000 net worth, then the next year, I want that to be -$80,000. Then the next year, I want it to be -$40,000 and then we’re in the positives and we’re getting that snowball rolling in the right way. So those are some of the reasons why I think income and net worth are really the big — I think the best way to do it.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. And I think when I heard that from you, it just, it hit me instantly that makes so much sense. And again, as we think about our audience and the holistic planning and assistance that I think they need, just as you gave in that example, it allows you the flexibility to do everything from, hey, we really need to spend time on budgeting, build a foundation, an emergency fund. Or maybe we are ready to jump to that investment stage. But just to give the listeners an example — and Tim, I don’t know, you may not even realize this. So we, Jess and I started working with you I think it was actually November because we just got back from our anniversary out in Napa November 2017. Here we are, almost in July, and we are really now just starting to get in the weeds on the investment side to make sure we’ve got low-fee options, performance is aligned, risk tolerance is right. And to me, that’s so refreshing and speaks to the pricing model because we had all these other things that we wanted to talk about in terms of you getting to know us. We talked about the finding your why episodes and making sure we really understand long-term goals and priorities, and I don’t know if other models are designed in a way that allows that relationship to be built and that trust. And obviously, as you appreciate and I appreciate, if this is going to be a 30-, 40-, 50-year relationship, like that’s well worth that time to invest in it whereas if I may have shown up with, you know, Joe Schmo’s office with a few hundred dollars of assets, I can guarantee that conversation would not have been delayed for so many months until this point.
Tim Baker: Yeah, and obviously you’re in a different stage of life than a lot of the clients that I’m getting straight out of pharmacy school, you know. So, you know, there are assets there that we need to be attentive to. Some clients, we don’t even look at — outside of just making sure that they’re asset allocation is good for their 401k or 403b, we don’t really focus on it too much. And you know, and again, in an AUM office, that might be all they focus on. So it’s like, hey, your retirement looks good. I’ll see you in 10 years when you have something actually for me to manage. And to me, I’m looking at it, OK, how can we adjust behavior? How can we execute the strategy that we’ve picked out for them for student loans? You know, how can we protect, you know, the balance sheet and their income through, you know, insurance policies that are, again, in the best interests of the client? It could be if they have little kids, you know, and a home or something like that, it’s making sure that the estate plan documents are in place. So there’s just so many other things that, you know, to focus on. And again, the investments are just one piece of that. And I think, again, with a lot of advisors out there, they’re so hyper-focused on that because that’s what most people think of when they think of a financial advisor that stirs the drink in terms of compensation and things like that. And that’s, it’s kind of, I guess it’s like the cool kid or the bad boy in the room is the investments because a lot of people just think of, you know, maybe the movies or just it’s confusing to a lot of people. So that’s what they think of first.
Tim Ulbrich: So are there any challenges, downsides that you’ve seen to the model thus far? Or tweaks or things that you’re thinking about?
Tim Baker: Yeah, so the downside — and this is where I kind of have to really work on my communication skills is I think, if I’m perfectly honest, I think that I care more about the pricing model than the client. Typically, the client’s just like, Tim, shut up, just tell me what the fee is, and I’ll pay it. That’s fine. But I’m more like, no, no, no. But seriously, this is like, if we do this, you know, it’s kind of tailored to you, it accounts for complexity because it’s not just your fee is $258 because we did this formula and that’s what it is. And most people are like, just shut up. But for me, it’s telling a story of why I do it. And sometimes, you know, especially from a business perspective, it’s a lot easier just to say, hey, client. Hey, prospective client, it’s this. And the messaging, you know, is super clean and easy. Because I believe so much in this, my conviction has kind of stood in the way of just saying, hey, it’s just going to be whatever, x amount per month and that’s it. Because I believe to my core that this is the right way to do it. But from a messaging standpoint and getting the prospective client to say, OK, I kind of understand what you’re doing, takes some effort on my part to kind of tell that story as I’m explaining what we actually and how we do it. So that’s probably part of it. The other part of it is because it’s based on — and it’s a double-edge — because a lot of my clients pay me through cash flow versus an investment account, in the AUM world, it’s typically just — the fee that you pay is just a line item in your investment. So it’ll just say “Script Financial, -x amount of dollars for this month or quarter” and for a lot of clients, it’s kind of like an out-of-sight, out-of-mind. They don’t look through their statements, they have no — but the way that I do it, I leave, for the most part, I leave the client investments unadulterated. We don’t bill towards the investment accounts if they have them. So it’s all cash flow, so they get an invoice from me that says, hey, thanks for working with Script Financial. And then it’s kind of a regular draw. And you know, you know, the fee is the fee is what I say. But the fee is the fee, meaning it’s not out of sight or out of mind. You’re getting that invoice every month that says, thank you. And for me, I live with — we were talking off-mic beforehand, I live with a healthy level of paranoia because I want to make sure that my clients are receiving the value that I think they should with working in this model. So to me, where in most models it’s kind of out-of-sight, out-of-mind, I don’t really know what I’m paying. It’s full transparency, this is it. And for some people, that can be a little uncomfortable, especially if they’re working with their parents’ firm where they’re paying them who knows what. So I think that’s the big drawback for me is communicating what the value is and also showing them that it will be a cash flow strain on them, but I think that the value they receive outpaces that, especially over the course of 10, 20, 30 years.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and even just like to counter that a little bit. I think one of the downsides of an AUM kind of out-of-sight, out-of-mind model is it waters down the quality of the advice from the planner because I don’t think the client is necessarily has the same expectation. I mean, we know that if I’m writing a check every month or I see it coming out of the account or I get the email reminder from Script, I’m more likely to be an engaged advisee, right? Which ultimately means at the end of the day, if I’m a more engaged advisee and I’m knocking on your door and you’re feeling that accountability like just the cumulative effect of that of 20, 30, 40 years of the quality of the planning advice, I think is worth noting. So as we bring this full circle and connecting this back to Episode 054, one of the things that I mentioned — and Tim, you elaborated on — was the reality that as I was starting YFP and I went out and interviewed a bunch of different financial planners to try to understand the industry, I left many of these meetings really not having a good idea of ultimately how they were going to get paid. And that, obviously, felt frustrating and as I learned more about the fee-only industry, and then I learned more about your pricing model, there is such clarity in when you think of a pricing model of income and net worth, there is no smoke and mirrors about where the cash flow is coming from. There’s lots of transparency in that model, and I think, again, obviously there’s a lot to feel good about that in terms of the fee-only approach and knowing where those dollars come from.
Tim Baker: Yeah, and I would say, you know, I would say this too is you know, a lot of planners even, you know, fee-only planners, they might say, hey, for this $300 a month in this AUM, you get two or three or four means a year, and that’s what’s included. But for me, like if I’m hiring a professional — and again, I’m looking at this from the client side of it — if I’m hiring a professional, I want access. So if I have a question about money, I want to be able to say, hey, let me get Tim on the horn or in an email or a text or something so I can basically work through this. So I don’t limit the — you know, this is kind of what you get — I don’t limit what the, you know, the interactions with clients because the more about clients and what’s going on with them, the better I can serve them. So you know, again, it’s on me to build a business that makes it, you know, where I can scale that and everything. But you know, I don’t limit that. And when we say the fee is the fee, but the fee is the fee, like the transparency there is that includes everything, includes filing their tax return. The only thing that really — it includes all the meetings, a lot of financial planners, they don’t focus on budget, and I’m a big proponent of that. So like, you know, I tell clients, you know, some clients will say, the fact that we meet every month to go through a 30-minute budget call is worth it itself because I know that you’re there to be my accountability buddy. And a lot of advisors overlook that because again, when you have minimums of $250,000 of $500,000, it’s just like there’s an assumption of wealth there, right? So to me, outside of hiring attorney to work on estate plan documents, which I’m a big believer in, especially if you have little ones, or buying a life insurance policy, a disability policy, the fee is basically inclusive of everything. It’s the investing, it’s the tax return and planning and all that kind of stuff. It’s all the meetings, the budget meetings. And I think that, to me, is kind of a warm blanket for clients because like I said in the previous model, I would say, oh, this year, I’m going to charge ou x% for selling you a mutual fund or you’re going to pay me a commission for an insurance policy or whatever it is. So it’s super confusing. So for here, it’s pretty much black-and-white. It’s based on a formula. And what I do is I reassess it every two years, so the idea is hopefully we grow together and not have these huge spikes like some of the other models do. And you know, we’re in it for the long haul, I guess. So yeah, transparency, I think, for my own perspective, is something that the industry needs to get a lot better at. And I’m trying to in my own corner of the world here to lead that a little bit, and I think in this model, it’s best served.
Tim Ulbrich: So as we wrap up this two-part series on why fee-only matters and how financial planners get charged and why you should care, don’t forget to head on over to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/financial-planner to get information on what to look for in a financial planner, to download our free guide, “The Nuts and Bolts to Hiring a Financial Planner,” and to learn more about the financial planning services that’s offered by YFP team member and fee-only Certified Financial Planner, Tim Baker. So next week on the show, we hope you will join us. We’re going to go rapid-fire Q&A on student loan questions — those that we’ve received via email and those that are inside our YFP Facebook group. So if you’re not yet part of the YFP Facebook group community, head on over there if you have a student loan question, throw it out there, and we’d love to feature several of those on next week’s show. So until then, have a great rest of your week.
On Episode 054 of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD interviews YFP team member, owner of Script Financial and fee-only Certified Financial Planner, Tim Baker about why he left his old financial planning firm in 2016 to start Script Financial. Script Financial is a financial planning firm dedicated to helping pharmacists meet their financial goals. Tim & Tim talk through why fee-only financial planning matters and why a revolution of fee-only planning is happening today. Head on over to https://yourfinancialpharmacist.com/financial-planner to get information on what to look for in a financial planner, to download the free guide ‘Nuts & Bolts to Hiring a Financial Planner’ and to learn more about the financial planning services offered by Script Financial.
Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to Episode 054 of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Excited to have Tim Baker back on the mic to talk this week and next week about financial planning, specifically why fee-only planning matters and why you should care about how a financial planner is making his or her money. So Tim Baker, here we are, Episode 054. And after a few solo episodes by both of us, a couple guest interviews, it was all the way back on Episode 049 when you and I last did a recording together and that was the Ask Tim & Tim episode where we tackled the question from Michael in Columbus about paying off a home early versus investing. So it feels good to be back together on the mic. How have things been in your world?
Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s been great. Actually, the last episode I think was Tony, right? Tony Guerra, that was the first episode that I didn’t hear until it actually went live. So we pass along editing duties to our assistant Kaitlyn, who is doing an awesome job, so it was kind of weird being a full-blown listener last episode. So I’m excited to be back and record this epsiode.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, we’re excited. This is such an important topic and one that we get so many questions about. And I should say, we did address financial planning in a mini-series we did, episodes 015, 016 and 017, we chronicled a little bit of your journey from West Point to becoming a CFP, we talked about the benefits of a financial planner, and then we also talked about questions that somebody should ask when hiring a planner. So we’re going to dig a little bit deeper into those topics here in Episode 054, and then next week, we’re going to jump in even further about how financial planners get paid and specifically why you chose the pricing model that you did in Episode 055. So before we dissect why fee-only financial planning matters and hear why you were convicted enough by this fee-only movement to jump ship from your old firm, let’s go all the way back for a minute to your journey into financial planning. And again, I know we talked a little bit about this in Episode 015, but give us your backstory, the Cliff Note version into why you chose financial planning as a career, especially since — as I remember — at the time, you had a very successful six-figure income and career. So why did you make that decision to jump to the financial planning industry?
Tim Baker: I think it’s actually analogous to why a lot of pharmacists get into pharmacy. I was at a point in my career where I was making, I was actually making good money, but I didn’t feel, I didn’t feel like warm and fuzzy after going to the office all day. You know, the best job satisfaction I got was when I was developing my key members. And I got to a point where money’s great, but I wanted to actually sit one-on-one and help people. And you know, when I left that six-figure job, I did some soul-searching, and I think I took about nine months off, you know, thereabouts, and you know, I just did some traveling and I reconnected because at that point in my life, I was so distracted — not distracted, but I was so involved in my career, and I didn’t really leave a whole lot of room for anything else, which was a problem. So I kind of tried to return to basics and reconnect with my roots, and you know, I was looking at different career paths and what I wanted to do. And both of my siblings — I have a sister who is two years younger and a brother who is two years older — and they both kind of in separate conversations said, ‘Hey, this is why I think you would be good in financial planning.’ And for me, it was kind of like an epiphany that I had when I went to West Point that, hey, maybe I think I really could be good at this and would enjoy a career here. And I was looking for something a little bit more entrepreneurial, which financial planning, it typically is. And that was kind of the path that led me back from the West Coast back to the East Coast and landed my first job in a financial planning firm.
Tim Ulbrich: And Tim, I remember actually, I think it was when you and I were still in our probably in our, let’s call it our dating phase period when we were getting to know each other, post-our initial meeting at Bob Evans a couple years ago. I remember, we were down at your sister’s place in Columbus, great area, great community involvement there. And I remember you telling that story about your siblings saying, ‘Hey, I really think you would be good at this industry, financial planning, because you really like to help people.’ And at the moment, I obviously didn’t know you well; I didn’t understand it. Now that Jess and I have had a chance to work with you as our financial planner and obviously as I’ve gotten to know you over the past couple of years in much more detail, I totally get it because I think your obvious strength, in my opinion, is relationship building and really caring and understanding about people and their situations. And we’ll talk more about that when we talk about why fee-only matters, but I think that’s one of the reasons it matters because you really allow the space for you to get to know your clients. We talk so much on the show that so much of financial planning is the factors beyond money, right? And I think you really understanding, for example, Jess and I and what motivates us, where we get stuck, where we’re frustrated, and it’s genuine. And I think that that relationship-building piece is so important when you think about a financial planner who’s not just somebody that’s really tactically looking at spreadsheets and adjusting things and rebalancing portfolios but really trying to understand who you are as a person to guide ultimately, then, your financial plan.
Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s one of those things — and to be honest, I didn’t really quite understand it even when I was getting into it. And probably some pharmacists think the same things, like they don’t really understand the profession until you’re actually, like, in it. Because I get a lot of, I do get a lot of sideways looks when I’m like, ‘Hey, I want to help people. I want to be a financial advisor.’ People are like, what? That doesn’t really sound like a calling. And I think what often happens — this is probably what we’ll get into a little bit it — I think sometimes the industry, with the sale of product and things like that and how compensation flows, sometimes it can muck that up a little bit. And you know, it’s like whose interests are first? And that type of thing. I think ultimately, you know, when I looked at it from a very pure standpoint, meaning — I’ll use pure instead of ignorance — I just, for me, I just thought, OK, I can sit down across the table from somebody and look at their situation and try to provide, you know, a semblance of a plan or a semblance of that I care about where they are and where they want to go. And I think a lot of what happens in the industry is that just because of how it’s structured, some of that can fall by the wayside. And to your point, like I’m a big believer in behavior and the relationship, and you know, really managing kind of like a life plan rather than just a financial plan. The finances are just really a tool. What’s the bigger picture? And you know, I think oftentimes, we as people, we just get so busy and so — and a lot of it’s just asking questions. Like I’ve said this before, I try to ask good questions and get the heck out of the way and just really you know, course correct a little bit and ask those questions and really hopefully it be a period of self-discovery. So it sounds kind of maybe hippie and you know, like, very touchy-feely, and I think you joked about that before. But again, a lot of these things aren’t things that we necessarily slow down to talk about and really self-reflect. And I think that’s where I can step in and hopefully provide a little bit of that, you know, catalyst to do that.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, spot on. And I remember even Tim Church and I talked about this when we were writing “The Seven Figure Pharmacist” book, and you know, obviously the title, “Seven Figure Pharmacist” implies a net worth of a million dollars or more, but we all know it’s not about just getting to a net worth of $1 million or more. I think if you crush your student loans, and you do awesome with your investments and home buying and other things you’re doing, ultimately, if there’s not a bigger plan or purpose there, I think people will find themselves disappointed. And I think that’s so much of what, in my opinion, people should be looking for in a financial planner — somebody who’s really going to help them pull out those pieces and parts like you and I talked about with Jess in Episodes 031 and 032 — I hope I have that right, somewhere around there.
Tim Baker: You’re better at that than me.
Tim Ulbrich: About finding our why, and I think that’s such a critical piece. So I have to be honest that as I started to think about this episode, I thought about all the pharmacists I’ve talked to over the last few years that, in my opinion, have appeared to somewhat aimlessly walk into a relationship with a financial planner. So what I mean by this is I hear a lot of pharmacists say and refer to their financial planner as ‘my guy’ or ‘my gal’ or maybe it’s somebody who mom and dad used and so by default, it’s going to be their same person. And of course, trust and relationships and knowing somebody’s important, but I’m fearful that there’s a lot of naive trust in that financial planner without really a full understanding of what value that person may or may not bring and whether or not they are actually obligated to be acting in the best interest — really understanding even how they get paid. I mean, would you say that’s a fair statement in terms of clients that you’ve talked with initially?
Tim Baker: Yeah, I think so. I think there’s a belief that all financial planners are created equal. And I would say this as full disclosure, this is not meant to be like a bask session. A lot of people that work in these capacities that are financial advisors or that work with mom and dad are, I think are pure at heart and want the best for their clients. I just think that there’s a better system to basically clear away some of the conflicts of interest. And for a lot of it — and I put myself in this bucket — you just don’t know any better. You know, I was into the industry, I was in the industry for quite a bit of time before I actually discovered the whole fee-only model and what that meant. But yeah, I would say that’s a true assessment, and what I try to explain is that it’s not apples-to-apples in a lot of ways. I’ll give you an example. You know, when I was at my last firm, what we typically did was cater to the pre-retirees and the retirees. And that’s what probably 90 percent of the financial planning firms out there do because the way that pricing model works is based on assets that you’ve accumulated over the course of your career. And that’s just basically how an advisor gets compensated is based on that number. And things like budgeting and student loans are not even really in the curriculum of the things you’re taught. You know, you’re taught more about stock options and things like that that for most — even most people, that doesn’t really matter. And things that have huge implications, especially towards the younger population — and I just remember kind of, you know, surprisingly asking questions about this and really no one knowing. And I’ve seen that with prospective clients where they’ll say, ‘Hey, I’ve been working with this advisor for a couple years, and I don’t really have a plan for my student loans.’ And some of the mistakes are you’re talking tens of thousands of dollars just because of you know, not having a clear strategy or not knowing what to do. You know, there was a conversation that I had about student loans, and they were like, ‘Oh, they just amortize over time, just like a mortgage would.’ I’m like — and at that point, I knew more than — I knew less than I do now but more than the other guys — and I’m like, no. And at that point, I’m like, I need to become an expert in this and really drill down as to what is going on with this because — and it’s not just pharmacists, it’s a lot of young people, especially with advanced degrees. And the fact that the industry I think in a lot of ways has failed in terms of providing good advice is a huge issue.
Tim Ulbrich: So you take your advice of the siblings, you go the financial planning route, you determine that’s the right career path for you, and you begin that first job. So tell us a little bit about that firm where you worked prior to then jumping to Script Financial in terms of the pricing model — and I know we talked a little bit about that in 015, 016, and 017, but what was that pricing model? And building on what you already said about where the interest may lie in terms of the client versus really the products and services that are being served?
Tim Baker: Yeah, so the first firm, it was an independent financial advisor firm. It was a solo practitioner, and he — I think he was ahead of the curve in a lot of ways. His niche was actually the LGBT community. He basically charged kind of very similar to what a lot of fee-based advisors charge. So a fee-based advisor is really, you can really in your quiver pick any way in which to charge the client for it to be profitable. So obviously, we’re talking about a business here. So the relationship needs to be mutually beneficial. You need to take care of the client, give them the financial products and plan and then obviously be able to run the business. So he typically would have the model of dependent on where the client fell in terms of assets and basically stage of life, that’s how he would basically determine how and when he would charge it. So to kind of give you an example, if you came in as a pharmacist and you had $150,000 in student loans but you have no assets to manage, he might charge you a flat, you know, a flat fee for a financial plan and give you advice that way. And then basically, the idea was when the assets were there, you kind of counted on that as an income stream. So as an example, you know, you get a financial plan, you work for a community pharmacist for five or 10 years, and then at that point, you know, you would count on the fact that if you left that job, you would be able to roll that money over into an IRA for him to manage. And then basically, it would be a percentage of that. Or in the meantime, you would sell that person insurance products or maybe a commissionable mutual fund that would pay the advisor 5% or whatever. And it would just be little dinks and dabs, like a little bit of — but the problem was is that it’s not clear to the consumer. So you’re like, OK, how are you charging me? Like you could charge me — he didn’t really do this — but you could charge me hourly. But it was commission, it was different products, it could be a flat fee for a plan. It was kind of all over the place, but then like once you reach a certain asset level, so if you work for that company for five years and you roll over let’s just say $100,000 just as an example, $50,000, then you would charge a percent based on that. But the problem with that model, Tim, is that typically what happens is that the people that pay the most in fee get the attention. So typically, if you’re working with your parents’ firm, and they’re paying x and you’re paying a quarter of x, you’re not going to get the attention. And that’s what often happens is that you just kind of, hey, i’ll buy you a mutual fund for your IRA every year, and then we might have a conversation. And then that’s it, and unfortunately, what the industry says is that, oh, you’re young, you don’t really have assets, there’s no need for a plan, there’s no need for advice, which is completely false. It’s more of a pricing issue than a planning issue if that makes sense.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I love that, just the comment you made about where the attention goes. Follow the dollars, right? I even think about this as people may be considering a plan that their parents use. Again, it doesn’t necessarily mean someone is inherently not a good planner, but I think about the life stage my parents are in. They’re in a very much a wealth-building stage. And they obviously have a lot more assets to manage than I do, whereas I think about coming out of school, I didn’t know how to do a budget, I was $250,000 in debt, I didn’t have financial goals, like I need a lot of love and attention when I came out of school as do a lot of new practitioners, right? And is the pricing model set up in a way that’s going to allow that? And I think — and I might be getting ahead of myself here in a few minutes — but when you think about a fee-only model, if I’m paying you for your advice and your services, and that’s relatively similar to what somebody at the next stage of life is paying, you know, I have, then, the power, if you will, to say, hey, Tim Baker, I need your attention just as much as my parents do because you’re helping me in whatever stage I’m in, and you may be helping them in whatever stage they’re in. So you articulated well on a fee-based model, and I would agree with you in terms of it’s really hard to understand where the money comes from. And I think as you’re interviewing, as people in the YFP community are interviewing financial planners, if you find yourself confused about where the dollars are coming from, stop and make sure you get those questions answered because that probably means somebody’s not in the fee-only model.
Tim Baker: Yeah, and I remember, Tim, actually I think this was post-our Bob Evans first date, I think I remember you saying to me, ‘I’ve met with how many different advisors just to understand it, and you walk out of there and you have no idea like how it works.’ And I think you paid me a compliment that you did understand how I charge, and I brushed off my shoulder a little bit. I’m like, alright, I’ve got something here, no big deal.
Tim Ulbrich: So if in a fee-based model, it sounds like it could be a combination of commissions, it could be from insurance products, it could be from investments, it could be in assets under management, it could be a flat fee for a plan. What are the inherent problems, then, with a model that’s priced like that in terms of where the client’s best interests really may lie or not?
Tim Baker: Yeah, I know. It’s funny because I joke when I talk to prospective clients about this. And you know, I say, when people at my last firm would say, ‘Hey, Tim, how do you get compensated?’ usually, that’s a cringeworthy question for a lot of advisors because, you know, part of it is because it takes awhile to explain. Another part of it could potentially take awhile to explain, like I said, these are all different ways that a fee-based advisors has in their quiver to be able to charge people. It doesn’t mean that everybody uses them, but for me, a young planner, I’m just trying to figure out a way to be myself and make a business out of what I was doing. I’d basically say, pull up a chair because this is going to take me awhile to explain it. So it could be, like you said, it could be an hourly fee, it could be assets under management, which I explained was 1% or 2% of whatever the assets that you are physically managing. It could be a mutual fund commission where, hey, you know, Tim, it’s a — let me give you $5,500 to invest, and then I’m going to charge you, you know, 5% on that, so it’s a $275 haircut. Or it’s a C-share commission, which is a 1% annual thing, and it’s a little bit more spread out. But those are more expensive over time. It could be an annuity, it could be life insurance. And typically, the life insurance that pays the advisor more is better for the advisor and not necessarily good for the person that’s buying it. So it’s just a hodge-podge of things, I thought at the time it was kind of obvious, but it totally wasn’t in terms of how it actually worked. I’m like, oh, it’s just this and this and then that’s how it works. But then like the next year, it could change to base on their circumstances. So there really wasn’t a clear path forward. And just things like — you know, I remember getting started, I would be doing happy hours and I remember — so these mutual fund wholesalers come into your office and they say, they whip out the glossy and they say, ‘Hey, this is why you should be our funds,’ which might sound maybe some more like drug reps or things like that.
Tim Ulbrich: That’s what I was just thinking, yes.
Tim Baker: And then they say, and then they basically say, ‘Hey, let’s go out to lunch, and I’ll tell you the great things about what we’re doing at ABC Mutual Fund.’ And then it’s kind of like — and then at my point in the career, I was — they’re looking for, ‘Hey, Tim, how can I help you grow your business?’ And I’m like, ‘Well, I’m doing these happy hours, I’m just trying to generate interest, people to see me.’ And I remember this instance where the guy was like, ‘Well, I’ll foot half the bill if I can come and speak.’ And I’m like, ‘Yeah, that sounds great because money’s a premium, marketing’s a premium.’ But then afterwards, I kind of had, you have that slimy feeling like I’m in the pocket of this particular — and I know in a lot of business, we joke about Shay (?) and construction business, it’s kind of like that’s how business works. I don’t want to be beholden to anybody because they paid for a happy hour. So I just, I wanted to be free, just free of the product, free of like what I was choosing as the tools to implement and really keep the advice pure. And it can be difficult to understand because again, I think probably 95% of the industry, there is a conflict between the advice that you give and the product you sell, and it’s just not commonplace for the whole fiduciary, the whole separation of product and advice, it’s not commonplace in the industry.
Tim Ulbrich: And I think that’s why I struggled with it so much, just as a pharmacist and a healthcare provider, I very naively come from the mindset of you act in the best interest of the patient, period.
Tim Baker: Yeah.
Tim Ulbrich: That’s what you do. I mean, that’s what you do, right? And so you know, should have known better, but obviously as you look at the financial planning industry, very different just in terms of the models that are out there, and actually the vast majority of planners not having to legally act in the best interests of the client. But the example you gave of the pharmaceutical industry and pharma is spot on. I can remember during residency and after rotations, we’d have drug reps come into the office, and they’re presenting the research that was, of course, sponsored by the company. You know, they’re presenting on viewpoint, and obviously as the provider, like we’re obligated to step back and say, ‘What’s the whole body of research? What’s the evidence behind this?’ And I think it’s similar here is you have to follow the money trail. Where is the money going? And as we’ll talk about here in the second part of the show, in a fee-only model, the money is going to the planner for their advice, not for a product, not for a commission, not for insurance or investments, it’s going for their advice, everything from budgeting to paying off student loans to end-of-life planning and everything in between to really look at your plan in a comprehensive nature.
Sponsor: I want to take a brief moment before we jump into the second part of the show and to highlight today’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist, which is Script Financial. Now, you’ve heard us talk about Script Financial before on the show, YFP team member Tim Baker, who’s also a fee-only certified financial planner, is owner of Script Financial. Now, Script Financial comes with my highest recommendation. Jess and I use Tim Baker and his services through Script Financial, and I can advocate for the planning services that he provides and the value of fee-only financial planning advice, meaning that when I’m paying Tim for his services, I’m paying him directly for his advice and to help Jess and I with our financial plan. I am not paying him for commissions, I am not paying him for products or services that may ultimately cloud or bias the advice that he’s giving me. So Script Financial specifically works with pharmacy clients, so if you’re somebody who’s overwhelmed with student loans or maybe you’re confused about how to invest and adequately save for retirement or maybe you’re frustrated with just the overall progress of your financial plan, I would highly recommend Tim Baker and the services that he’s offering over at Script Financial. You can learn more today by going over to ScriptFinancial.com. Again, that’s ScriptFinancial.com.
Tim Ulbrich: OK, so here we are, Tim. You mentioned, you know, holding some of those happy hours, really starting to understand kind of that fee-based model, trying to avoid, you know, some of that slimy feeling and really wanting to be objective in the advice that you’re giving, so tell us a little bit about ultimately, the pivot point of why you made that decision to leave and then give us that introduction into starting Script Financial. And I’ll start there and even jump ahead and say, why pharmacists specifically?
Tim Baker: Yeah. That’s a great question. And I would say, kind of back up a little bit. You know, like where I was in an independent financial planning firm, like I thought we were the bees knees. Like I thought we were it because we weren’t a big wirehouse or some of these bigger banks that you hear, you know, some of the not-so-great behavior. And we’re better as an independent because we can sell non-proprietary products, meaning we can basically sell any products that are out there. So in my mind, I had landed first time in the best model that was out there. And what I — I wouldn’t say quickly — what I very slowly realized was that I wasn’t in the best model and that there was a little bit more work to be done there. So basically, what happened was I was going through, I was kind of growing, I was slowly growing my business, and I just started to naturally gravitate towards younger people. You know, I kind of just remember retirees, pre-retirees coming in, and I just didn’t connect with them at all, like I just didn’t — retirement was so far away, and it just seemed weird that I would be sitting there, you know, talking about Monte Carlo analysis and things like that or long-term care insurance. And I just didn’t get, like I didn’t feel engaged. So i just started to really gravitate towards younger people. And at that time, it was actually my brother — and my brother works in a completely different industry, but he is very entrepreneurial, and he was researching — he’s a developer, so he’s researching the financial advisor industry and trying to figure out if he could build software that basically helped the industry. And he interviewed a guy named Alan Moore, and Alan was, is a young CFP, and he was starting something called XY Planning Network. And what XY Planning Network is is a group of fee-only CFPs that basically cater to Generation X, Generation Y. So he brought them to my attention and said, ‘Hey, are you fee-only? Like how do you charge? How does it work?’ And at the time, you know, he was basically saying like, dude, you’re wrong. The way that you’re doing it right now, it doesn’t work. This is a better model. And you know, what do you do when your older brother basically is trying to like tell you about your business? I’m like, get out of here. Don’t tell me about how to run my business.
Tim Ulbrich: Go do your developing, right? Go do your whatever.
Tim Baker: Exactly. And then I started to like crack open the book of what fee-only was, and I just started to listen to XYPN radio, which is the podcast they have. It just kind of chronicled different firm owners who are young and kind of worked for other firms and maybe there wasn’t a clear path forward or they saw that, you know, fee-only was better. Maybe they came from the broker-dealer, commission, fee-based world that I did. And I just started to just cram these episodes. And you know, at that time, most of my clients were pharmacists — and I’ll tell the backstory in a second, but I just started to like — wheels started to turn for me, and I’m like, you know, if I’m not comfortable as the consumer doing what I’m doing, why would I position myself as this? So I just started kind of planning from there. And you know, I wanted to make sure — you know, typically when you Google ‘questions to ask your financial advisor,’ typically they’re going to say, are you a CFP? Which I was at that point, a Certified Financial Planner. And then, how do you get paid? And typically, the fee-only model is, they’re very vocal in terms of this is the best model because it reduces the conflict of interest. But there’s still some there; there’s no such thing as conflict-free advice, but that was kind of the early makings of Script Financial, at least in terms of planning and all that. So that’s kind of how that started.
Tim Ulbrich: So talk us a little bit more then, you make this jump, you identify fee-only’s where you want to be, and you say, ‘I’m going to really own the pharmacist space.’ Because what we’ve come to realize after you and I met is that nobody was really — I mean, there’s people that dabble in healthcare financial planning at large, couple people that are out there working with independent pharmacies as a group, but nobody that we know of really niched down and said, ‘I exclusively want to work with pharmacists.’ So talk about that.
Tim Baker: Yeah. So part of the — you know, and I give credit to XY Planning Network, one of their big things is it’s all about niche, you know, owning a niche and really being — because I think what often happens is that financial advisors, financial planners say, oh, like you have a pulse, I can work with you. And you become, you become master of none, you know? You’re very general, you’re a generalist. So working with somebody who is a retiree, like you said, your parents versus you, is very different. And so I started to think about that, and I was like, that makes a lot of sense. And by the way, I’m more drawn to younger people, that kind of Gen X, Gen Y, and you know, the millennial generation’s like 80 million, so that’s not really a niche. It is, in a sense, but you can niche down further. So when I started in the business, one of my first clients was a West Point classmate of mine. He got out of the Army, moved to Baltimore, and that’s really one of the reasons why I’m in Baltimore. I came for an Army-Navy game many, many years ago and really like Baltimore. And they became early clients and then his wife was a pharmacist. And I just started to get referrals through them, and I quickly found that my small client base was mainly pharmacists. So I’m hearing this podcast, I’m hearing niche, I’m hearing fee-only, and I think I was on a drive out to Ohio to visit my sister, and it just clicked for me. I’m like, I’m doing it. Like this is what I’m doing.
Tim Ulbrich: Those are great moments, aren’t they?
Tim Baker: Oh, man. And I guess that was an epiphany moment for me too. I typically say I’ve really only had two of those, but that’s probably the third one where I’m like, this is what I’m doing. And almost like unapologetically like focused on that because I would even — because a lot of my friends in Baltimore are pharmacists. We joke that if 10 of us go out, typically, there’s eight pharmacists and two are non-pharmacists. But even some of my pharmacist friends, they looked at me like I was crazy. But I was unapologetic. I’m like, to me, this is what I’m going to do. So I just started this — like I said before, this thousand cups of coffee. So I would just talk to every pharmacist that I could get my hands on and say, ‘Hey, pharmacist. This is my idea.’ Or maybe not say it that bluntly, but what are the things from a financial perspective that are really kind of top of mind? What’s troubling you? And at the time, it wasn’t readily apparent that the big things were, hey, I’m overwhelmed with student debt, like at least for me. Like I wasn’t completely bought into the niche. So what my research showed me was kind of some of those major pain points being, hey, Tim, I’m overwhelmed with my student loans. I’m really unsure about how to properly save or budget or just invest for my future. And then I feel frustrated because I make a good income, but I’m not progressing financially. And I think once I logged into that, that’s what I often say to a lot of prospective clients, and they’re like, ‘Wow, Tim, you just described me. Check all three of those boxes.’ And for me, that’s not something you’re going to get from a typical, run-of-the-mill, like if I was Baker Financial Planning, and I was basically servicing anybody that was alive, I wouldn’t have the attention to be able to say — and it’s funny, I was on a prospective call yesterday who actually heard you on one of your recent webinars. And he was talking to me, and he assumed that I was — he didn’t know which Tim he was talking to. So he assumed that I was a pharmacist, so he like started to talk, and he’s like, ‘Oh, are you a pharmacist? I don’t remember which Tim.’ And I’m like, ‘I’m not a pharmacist, but I’m tracking all that stuff because I talk to so many of you guys that I understand the language and I understand kind of the transition from P4 to PGY1 and then kind of new practitioners and beyond.’ So to me, I think, you know, embracing that niche — and what I saw in the market, to your point, Tim, was you know, a lot of advisors will go after doctors because there’s kind of that inherent, they make big incomes and everyone wants to kind of go after that demographic of people. And you know, pharmacists and dentists were kind of like throw-ins, you know what I mean? So there wasn’t anybody that was saying, hey, you’re a pharmacist? You’re my guy or you’re my gal, let’s figure this out. And to me from a business standpoint, that just made a lot of sense to just try to own that and really, you know, immerse myself as much as I could. So I just talk to a lot of different pharmacists, and one thing I don’t think I’ve ever said speaking before is, you know, one of the things that I need to figure out when I did this career switch, even going from the firm that I was at to basically by myself where I’m basically trying to build a firm from nothing, really, is I need to figure out ways to generate income just in case the runway runs off. So things like uber and things like that, that was on my radar. But I actually — and it’s on my shelf here. I have — it’s the Pharmacy Technician Certification Exam. So I’m like, hey, if I’m going to be…
Tim Ulbrich: I remember that, yeah.
Tim Baker: If I’m going to trumpet “I understand the niche,” I should, you know — so I kind of got through, but then the business kind of started to take off. But that was always in the back of my mind was to kind of work inside of a pharmacy — and maybe I’ll still do it, work inside of a pharmacy and really understand that. So I was, Tim, I was all-in. And I think a lot of people probably still do, they’re like, ‘You do what?’ Because I’ll stand up at networking things, and I’ll say, ‘Fee-only financial planning for kind of the Gen X, Gen Y pharmacists.’ And people are like, huh? Because most people stand up, and they’ll say, ‘Our business does everything for everybody.’ And to me, this is the mark in a lot of ways.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. And I can attest to the fact that I think you’re the only financial planner that knows terms like PGY1, collaborative practice agreement, provider status. I mean, I feel like you read up on it, we talk about it, you get the market, you get the space, and it seems small, but it’s so important. And to your point, when you get up and talk with other planners, like, you know, trying to service everyone versus obviously what we’re doing is focusing specifically on pharmacists and building that community around pharmacists, that’s so valuable to really know that space to the depth and the detail that I think that pharmacists deserve and the clients deserve. So what — we’ve dodged around a little bit I think defining directly fee-only. So give me the 30-second pitch in exactly what is a fee-only financial planner? You know, the straight definition of that.
Tim Baker: So fee-only basically means that the firm or the advisor earns their fee — they earn no commission. So they earn their fee directly from the client themselves, so not through a mutual fund company or life insurance company. There’s no commissions on products that are sold, there’s no kickbacks for referrals or anything like that, and a fee-only financial advisor follows the fiduciary standard of care, which is opposed to the suitability standard of care. So the way I describe it, Tim, is — I think I’ve said this before is — if I’m selling you a suit, and I’m following the suitability standard of care, I just have to measure you and make sure that the suit fits. But that suit could be Philadelphia Eagle midnight green with Philadelphia Philly red polka dots. It could be like disgusting looking. If I’m following the fiduciary standard of care, not only does it has to fit, but it has to look damn good on you. It has to be in your best interest. So if you equate that to the industry, I could say, ‘Hey, Mr. Judge, I know we’re standing here in court because my client, Tim Ulbrich, is really upset about the annuity that I sold him that paid me 8%.’ I can make a case that it is suitable given his income and his assets and all that stuff, but I can’t make a case that it’s necessarily in his best interest. So it’s a little bit harder of a standard of care to achieve, so really, again, like when I work with clients, I say, ‘OK. What are the client’s goals? And then how can I help them grow and protect their income and grow and protect their net worth?’ And to me, those are the two lenses that I’m looking at. And that’s basically how I dispense advice, if you will. And to me, I think that’s the best model to do it.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and just to get granular on this, so when Jess and I are working with Tim Baker as he is our planner — you know, I’m paying him on a monthly basis purely for his advice, input, guidance to Jess and I — but he’s not making any money off of insurance products, commissions, investments, etc. So just to give one example where I think this is beneficial. We had a call, I think it was last week or the week before, and we were probably on the phone for an hour and a half, two hours just talking about kind of bigger life career goals and where does the financial piece — we talked, as we documented in episodes 031 and 032 about kind of our overall purpose and goals. And that stuff is so critically important, as I’ve already talked about earlier on the show, and if I may work with a financial planner that’s not fee-only, they may see $300,000 or $400,000 of assets and really want to focus there, where obviously we’ve got so many other things we’re trying to look at and balance. And I think the value of that, we have experienced firsthand. So I believe, obviously, that I think many people could benefit from your services. And one of the things we realized recently, Tim, I think it was in the Facebook group. We had probably one of the biggest YFP fans out there ask the question of, hey, where can I find a good fee-only Certified Financial Planner? And what that told me is we have not done a good job of making it crystal clear that obviously YFP via Tim Baker and Script Financial offers financial planning services. So this is me from the mountaintop, shouting, saying, ‘Yes, we offer these types of services.’ So what is the best next step that people can take if they’re interested in learning more about your services?
Tim Baker: Yeah, so I would say just go to ScriptFinancial.com. You’ll see a nice green button on the homepage that says, “Schedule a Free Call.” And it’s a little bit misleading because typically, I like to do video conferences or in-person meetings. So if you’re in the Baltimore area, obviously, we can meet in-person. But I like some face-to-face via video conference. I think Script Financial services, I think we service clients in like 15 states now. 15 or 16 states. So we’re growing, but a lot of it — even clients that I have in the Baltimore area, they have kids so they don’t want to deal with traffic, they’ll just do the virtual meeting through the video conference, and it works out well. So yeah, ScriptFinancial.com, you’ll see a nice green button that says “Schedule a Free Call,” and yeah. We can just chat and see if we’d be a good fit.
Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. Good stuff, Tim. And on next week’s episode, we’re going to talk a little bit more about the different pricing models that are out there for financial planners, why you should care about how a financial planner gets paid, and ultimately why and how you landed on the pricing model that you have at Script Financial that’s based off of income and net worth. So make sure to join us next week on Episode 055. As a reminder, don’t forget to head on over to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/financial-planner. Again, that’s YourFinancialPharmacist.com/financial-planner to get information on what to look for in a financial planner, to download our free guide, “The Nuts and Bolts of Hiring a Financial Planner,” and to learn more about the financial planning services offered by YFP team member and fee-only Certified Financial Planner Tim Baker. So that’s all for today’s episode, have a great rest of your week.
On Episode 053 of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, YFP team member Tim Ulbrich interviews Dr. Tony Guerra, an author, podcaster, entrepreneur, real-estate investor, educator and father to triplet girls that has an incredible story to share going from financial ignorance to financial independence. Tony talks about his financial journey, his various business ventures, and how and when his mindset shifted that allowed him to be on the path to financial independence.
About Our Guest
Tony Guerra graduated with a Doctorate of Pharmacy from the University of Maryland in 1997 and has followed a non-traditional career path to best suit his needs and interests. Tony has taken on the roles of pharmacist, homeowner, professor, real estate agent, author, mentor, podcast host, husband, and father of triplet girls while continually striving for financial independence. Through motivation and creative entrepreneurial thinking, Tony has created a lifestyle that allows him to focus on his family and his passions.
Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to Episode 053 of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. We have an awesome episode in store for you today with a special guest, Dr. Tony Guerra that has taken a nontraditional path with his pharmacy career, which has allowed him to be on the path to financial independence. And I’m excited to have him on the show to share that story and journey today. And ever since I heard about Tony’s work more than a year ago and having the chance to learn about his background, I’ve been excited to get him on this show and to share his story with you, the YFP community. So Tony, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the YFP podcast. Tony Guerra: Hey Tim, thanks for having me on.
Tim Ulbrich: So to be honest, Tony, there’s lots to talk about today. The more I dug into your background and story, the more I thought, where do we even start with this? We’ve got your fascinating pharmacy career, the real estate that you’ve been involved with, successful business ventures, and so I think maybe the best place to start is let’s go all the way back to when you graduated from the University of Maryland in 1997 with your pharmacy degree. So tell us a little bit about your first job out of school and what was your financial situation right away after you graduated? Tony Guerra: Well, first, thanks for having me on the show. I actually listen to every single one of your podcast episodes, so I’m honored to be No. 53.
Tim Ulbrich: Thank you.
Tony Guerra: And my journey was a little bit different in that, you know, so many students right now are graduating, want to do residency, do 40-60 hours a week. When I sat down for the interview to work for Walgreen’s when I graduated to go to the Phoenix area, I actually asked to work only 24 hours a week or three days a week. And he talked me into four days a week, or 32 hours a week. So I had no interest in maxing out the number of hours I had, and my situation’s a little bit different because they had doubled our tuition from BS to PharmD, but my tuition was $4,000 a year.
Tim Ulbrich: Wow.
Tony Guerra: So I had $16,000 total in tuition. So my situation there is a little bit different, and before people hang up like, this guy doesn’t have any problems, let me talk about the mistakes that I made. So the issue with Maryland is that New Jersey and Atlantic City is not that far of a drive away. So a lot of times my buddies and I would go up to Atlantic City, and the most important thing that we had to do was because in New Jersey you can’t pump your own gas, we just had to have enough money left over to have a tank of gas or at least half a tank of gas to get us back to Maryland. So when I talk about finances, it was truly monopoly money that I was playing with back then. I had $20,000 in credit card debt, I had the student loans, and then I bought a $20,000 car, brand-new car, just out of college. So I had absolutely no concept of what it meant to owe money at the end. So in terms of graduating, the only budget I did was to make sure that I could work 24 hours or 32 hours, so I worked four days a week. And I didn’t want the pharmacy life to take over my life. So I was going to the Phoenix area. I wanted to go to a destination area. After seven years of college, I didn’t want to work 40 hours a week. I only worked 32. But I’d made some mistakes with finances, and eventually, it did catch up with me.
Tim Ulbrich: Couple things there that really stick out to me is, you know, even the student loan numbers, which obviously are very small relative to our indebtedness we’re dealing with today, right? $160,000, $200,000, depending on public-private, whatnot. But also, you’ve got to remember context of, you know, 20 years ago. But that I think does highlight how much that has increased in that period of time, which is obviously shows you —
Tony Guerra: 1,000%, right?
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think to your point about Monopoly money, I know we just talked about this on your show as well is that we’ve got to change that conversation that it’s got to hit us, have a little bit more of an emotional reaction to that debt. And when we see a number like $160,000, we should be like, ‘Holy cow! What is that?’ One of the things I wanted to ask you, though, which is intriguing to me is your intentional choice to not work full-time. And the reason I want to ask this question is that as you know, right now, there’s a trend going on nationally where some pharmacists are getting cut back to 32 hours, and they’re not getting full-time work because of various reasons, saturations of markets and whatnot. And here you are, and I think a lot of people out there are obviously unhappy with that. They maybe financially feel pressed that they need their full salary, but here you are intentionally not choosing to go full-time. And I heard in your conversation, I heard a little bit of a strategic decision that you didn’t really want maybe to get burned out, you wanted to give yourself other options. Talk more about why you made that choice to not go full-time right away.
Tony Guerra: Well, I can connect the dots looking backwards. I think Steve Jobs said in that famous graduation speech at Stanford, but I call the other eight hours, the Entrepreneurial Eight. And so what I wanted to leave was that other day just for kind of entrepreneurial ventures, and I was taking classes in journalism and writing. I never had a plan to become a journalist, but I knew I wanted something besides pharmacy. I didn’t like my job after about three months, and I kind of knew that that was coming. I’d been in retail for 3-4 years, so it wasn’t a surprise that I’m like, ‘Gosh, this kind of got repetitive.’ And I did try to make changes. I would change my days, I would go to overnights, I worked as a pharmacy manager in a grocery store, I worked in mail order. But it just — I just wanted to minimize that. What I found was that it was OK — I enjoyed the people I was with, and so I focused a lot more on the people I was with and the people I was serving. But if I had that one day a week that was completely dedicated to creative work and making money a different way — and now we call them side hustles — I just wanted a creative outlet. So I think making room for that intentionally before you graduate was something that I really wanted. The residency burnout is much lower in pharmacy than it is in medicine, but to have to dedicate 50, 60 hours at that salary — and it works out to I think maybe $16 an hour as a resident if you work 60 hours a week, that’s deflating. And I didn’t want that to happen. So if I’m going to go to a destination, I wanted to have time to enjoy it. So I knew early that I wanted to be a writer, but that success didn’t come until much later. But the entrepreneurial space — I always made room for entrepreneurial space.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I remember, Tony, my whopping $31,000 salary during 2009.
Tony Guerra: Ouch.
Tim Ulbrich: And I think it’s an interesting point you bring up there, and I’m so glad — and I hope our listeners can stop and listen and absorb the wisdom that you just shared. The Entrepreneurial Eight, I love that term because I wouldn’t say I have many regrets. But if I look back and now with a family of three young boys, every year that goes on since graduation, my tolerance for risk is looking more — looks different with each passing year, right? Because you have more things that you’re accountable for, you have more things that you’re responsible for, and I think as I envision where the profession of pharmacy is going, and as I think about some of the new grads being frustrated with either the options that are available to them or maybe the work environment that they’re in, I love that concept of why not carve eight hours a week? Why not work part-time? Why not put yourself in a financial position that you can do that? Because I think while it not only positions you for potentially long-term other options, business ventures, things where you can control your own destiny, that one day of creative outlet I’m guessing made some of the other time more palatable, whatever you want to call it, that you knew you had that day of the week that you could ultimately turn to that creative outlet. So I hope the new graduates, some of those in their mid-20s where maybe they don’t have a lot of things that are going to hold them back risk-wise, obviously besides student loan debt — is this the time potentially to think about some of those entrepreneurial risks that somebody could take? So what — as you look back and kind of think about the graduates, I know you take a lot of APPE students on rotations, what advice do you have for them? Maybe mistakes that you’ve made? Things you wish you would have done differently? Obviously, you mentioned credit card debt, new cars, and I’m guessing there’s just a certain set of advice or points that you give to your APPE students to say, hey, if I were in your shoes right now, these are the things I wish I would have done differently. What are those things?
Tony Guerra: I find that money and budgeting is kind of deflating. And so what motivates me is doubling my money. So I find places where I can double it. And I want to be very careful not to say, I can double a pharmacist’s salary. I don’t know how to do that. But I can certainly double $400, $5,000, even $40,000. And maybe I can go through some of those stories where I’ve done it or where I understand where I’ve doubled my money. But I find that what you have to do first is what you’ve taught — I think when you’ve talked about your student loan course — is you have to have everything in place before you start playing with this double-your-money game.
Tim Ulbrich: Yes.
Tony Guerra: To put the money somewhere because you can get it, you can always lifestyle creep up to whatever you spend. But I’m actually taking on debt right now so I have a place to put the money so that’s something you also talked about in a recent episode is that people that are high earners that have no debt really struggle to know where to put their money.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.
Tony Guerra: So I’m taking on debt in the form of a third home, I just bought it yesterday. And that’s where it is. But maybe we can talk a little bit about some ways to kind of double your money. And we’re not giving investing advice. And I’m going to take this on instead of you guys taking it on because you guys have a very good, methodical way. But maybe we can just talk about how to double $500 to start with.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, let’s do it. And I know you’ve been involved in different things. As I mentioned in the intro, you’re an author, so you’ve written a couple different books, and we’ll link to them in the show notes, so “Memorizing Pharmacology,” “How to Pronounce Drug Names,” what am I missing, Tony? What else have you done on the book front?
Tony Guerra: The new one’s “Memorizing Pharmacology Mnemonics.” It’s meant for APPE students. And it should be free on Audible if they’ve never had an audiobook before, but something they can listen to back and forth on their way. You know, I think that really, as you get into the APPEs and you get into the internal medicine one and then the grueling critical care ones, you’ve got to have the basics down. And by having the basics down, I wrote that book and made it into an audiobook with another pharmacist out in New York, so “Memorizing Pharmacology Mnemonics” is where I would start if I was an APPE student.
Tim Ulbrich: So we’ll link to those in the show notes, and I’m guessing — and we’ll talk real estate here in a little bit — but I’m guessing your authorship, and I know you’ve put these online, so you’ve done audiobooks, which if I’m right, one of these has landed its way onto the Audible.com best seller list. And so you’ve obviously had success here. So talk to us about even just that journey of, wow, I want to write a book and how I did that, what impact that’s had for you financially but also maybe just the scratch that entrepreneurial itch that you’ve had all the way back to graduation.
Tony Guerra: I found that I couldn’t write a book until I got mad. So I had to do something to get mad about the book, and so what I did was I was taking classes up at Iowa State, and I went into a class that I knew I was going to get kicked out of. And so there’s an MFA program, a Master of Fine Arts program there, and there was a class on nonfiction creative writing, and this is a class I wanted to take. And I knew I was going to get kicked out. I knew the teacher, and I knew the people there. I said, ‘Hey, you know, I signed up for your class.’ And she said, ‘No, no. You’re not in the MFA program.’ ‘Yeah, but I’m allowed in. I’m in an English program, and part of the department.’ ‘Yeah, we’re just going to stick with what we have here.’ And I knew that would — I didn’t know for sure she’d kick me out — but she did kick me out, wouldn’t let me in the class, so I was excluded. And the one thing that makes me mad is being excluded, and I knew that would happen. So it made me mad enough to write the book, and now the book actually makes double the salary of the professor herself, so I won’t name the person, but it just makes me mad. So I think 98% of people, they say, want to write a book but only 1% do. So some kind of emotional reaction — and I think in your writing your book, “The Seven Figure Pharmacist” with Tim Church, I think that it was an emotional response to what had happened with your stories as well. So to write a book or to get there, you really have to. And what I think I’ll point to is actually another author, Dr. Richard Waithe, who was the host of Rx Radio podcast, I think he probably put about $500 into his book, and I can’t remember the name, but it’s like “The New Pharmacist” or “First Time Pharmacist,” that’s what it’s called. Yeah, “First Time Pharmacist.” And I just by seeing his numbers and knowing how much he makes from each book, he’ll probably double his money I would say in four or five months. But the way that I would — and I don’t mean to be self-serving to your course — but the easiest way to get make $400 on $400 is to invest in your course because the return could be close to $100,000. And that’s one of those returns that’s so big that you don’t even do the math on it. You’re just like, I put $400 into the course, and I saved $100,000. Or in your case, if you had had — if we could go back in time and you wrote the course for yourself, you would have saved $300,000.
Tim Ulbrich: Oh my gosh. I try not to think about it.
Tony Guerra: And I would have saved tons of money. So that’s an easy way to double $400 or $500 — either write a book that you’re passionate about, put maybe $400 or $500 into it or take the student loan course. That’s where I would start with $500. And then maybe we can talk about $5,000 is the next way. But I would recommend being a little slower with this one. But I can tell you how I doubled $5,000 as well.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, so before we go there, just talk me through — obviously, you got mad, which I think obviously there’s an emotion there which inspires action. I’m with you, I need something to fire me up, especially if you’re going to sit down and start writing and typing. I remember lots of early mornings, lots of late nights, and it’s a grind, right? As you’re kind of working through the process. So you’re mad, but you obviously were very strategic about, you know, I’m not going to write this just to write this, I want to write something that’s going to provide value and is needed in the market and is something that I have expertise in. And so I think a lot of listeners might be hearing that, hey, I do this every day, and there seems to be a need for something, whether it’s a book, a course, a Webinar, whatever. Talk to us, though, about how you put those pieces together that it’s not just writing a book to write a book, it’s that you want to put something that had value, that was needed and lined up with your expertise. And does that connect with your day job and what you do as a professor right at Des Moines Area Community College? Were you able to sync those experiences up to maximize your time?
Tony Guerra: I actually think you have to sync it. So my recommendation to anyone who’s always wanted to write a book is instead of worrying about writing a book, just write the curriculum for the course that you’re going to teach or that you would want to teach and just put it in book form. And then when it comes to audiobook, it took — when I first talked to my narrator, I never had hired a narrator. He was $400 per finished hours, so that means for a 7-hour book, it’s $2,800, a ton of money on something I had no experience with. And he said, boy — because it was a two-month lag between when I could have him do it — he’s like, ‘Boy, you’re going to really have a heck of a time making this for the ear.’ And what he was saying is is that if you can make nonfiction into something that is listenable, people will buy it. And so that’s really where it came from is the two steps are 1, what course would you teach if you could? And then write the course for something that you actually are maybe doing. It’s a lot easier for professors and things like that that have it. But if you’ve got technicians or you’ve got other people that work for you, what would be the course that you would write for them? Or if you, you know, with you guys and teaching about money, how would you write that course? And the second part is is make it for the ear. So you take that course, and then you just read it. And then you just continue to revise it but make it as if you are talking to someone. So those two components, writing for a need — and the pharmacology books, the need was that many nursing students have to take pharmacology but don’t get chemistry before it. So imagine hearing beta lactam or N-acetyl para enol phenol and all of these things, and you’ve never had chemistry. So that was kind of the need that I filled. But the way to get a book done — align it with what you do anyway, and then No. 2, then read it and re-write it as if you’re reading it to someone rather than ‘Here, I’ve wrote this book.’ And if you read Dr. Richard Waithe’s book, it’s really conversational. Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I love that. And I think for those that are listening that maybe are not fully satisfied with your job, and you’re looking for a creative outlet, you’re looking to create something, obviously the money that we’re talking about here and how you can generate revenue to help accelerate your financial plan is an important piece, but you can’t underestimate the positive energy and the feeling and momentum that you get from being in the creative process. And so you know, I would ask, outside of your time, of course, what is there to lose to potentially consider a path like this, thinking of the work that you already do? I want to take a brief moment before we jump into the second part of the show to highlight today’s sponsor of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, which is Script Financial.
Sponsor: Now, you’ve heard us talk about Script Financial before on the show. YFP team member Tim Baker, who’s also a fee-only certified financial planner, is owner of Script Financial. Now, Script Financial comes with my highest recommendation. Jess and I use Tim Baker and his services through Script Financial, and I can advocate for the planning services that he provides and the value of fee-only financial planning advice, meaning that when I’m paying Tim for his services, I am paying him directly for his advice and to help Jess and I with our financial plan. I am not paying him for commissions, I am not paying him for products or services that may ultimately cloud or bias the advice that he’s giving me. So Script Financial specifically works with pharmacy client’s. So if you’re somebody who’s overwhelmed with students loans or maybe you’re confused about how to invest and adequately save for retirement, or maybe you’re frustrated with just the overall progress of your financial plan, I would highly recommend Tim Baker and the services that he’s offering over at Script Financial. You can learn more today by going over to scriptfinancial.com. Again, that’s scriptfinancial.com.
Tim Ulbrich: Alright, so we’re back with today’s show. We’re walking through with Tony Guerra to hear about all of his work. We’re talking about some of the books that he’s written, and he’s shared with us kind of that first step he took to earn income. And now we want to talk, Tony, about the next step that you took. So we talked about getting to that $500 point, and now we’re talking about that next level of $5,000. So talk us through for you kind of that next level of the business venture.
Tony Guerra: So the mantra is invest in yourself. And right now, you guys have an only $400 course, but I expect that if you guys continue on your path, there’s going to be a $5,000 course that you guys are going to have in your future where maybe we go to a destination, we get everything done with the finances and things like that, but then we start talking about investing, then we kind of create our own group. So somebody that has done that in the real estate space is Brian Buffini. He came here from Ireland and was one of the best realtors in the country but then created a coaching company. And the $5,000 I spent — I remember these exact words to my coach, and we’re very similar in that we want return on investment mathematically, where my wife is completely different. She would want certain feelings that come out of it. But when I talked to my coach, I said, she said, ‘What do you want to get out of this?’ I said, ‘$10,000. I want my $5,000 back, and I want $5,000 more.’ And that was it. And I ended up making $22,000 as a real estate agent. But what I invested in was $400 a month to get one-on-one coaching, 30 minutes, every two weeks, and what I was basically doing was following the path of somebody that had done these steps and was able to articulate how to do it. And then years later, I want to say five or six years later, just before the crash, my income — and I didn’t take all of this home, I had a little bit of group of people, of real estate agents, but my income — I had to leave pharmacy because it had just gotten away, and it didn’t make enough money. But I made $253,000 in that coaching program.
Tim Ulbrich: Wow.
Tony Guerra: So that $5,000 at first got me to $22,000 in the first year but then I was making $253,000 that last year. And I would have stayed with real estate even with the crash because that’s when people really needed me, but my wife made it clear that we’re moving to Iowa. And so I moved to Iowa, and I completely gave up the real estate business. But to spend $5,000 and make $5,000, I would invest in yourself in some kind of program. I think Blair Theilemier has something that’s a couple thousand dollars or something like that. But those kinds of things, that’s where I would put up to $5,000 in terms of investing in myself. And where I wouldn’t go is into some kind of postgraduate Master’s degree or something like that because you have to wait until you graduate to maybe get a return on that. I’m talking about things that you can — like a real estate license, it’s like $500 — that you can get returns immediately, that you can start making your money right away. But that’s how I’d put $5,000 in and get $5,000 back.
Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and we think about — we’re always harping on our students, professional development, professional development, professional development. It’s the same thing when it comes to your finances, real estate, a business coach, whatever, you have to look at those opportunities and say — and I’ve done the same thing with business coaching, I’ve done the same thing with hiring Tim Baker to help me with my finances — and I’ve realized all of those and said, ‘That’s an investment. I’ve got to write a check.’ But I realize the return on it is going to be much greater than what I’m investing. And I think that’s true for so many different areas of your life is you have to look at those things and say, OK. I’m going to try to go at this all myself or what are the opportunities I can really hire somebody who’s taken this path that can really keep me accountable and has the expertise to get me to the goal that I want to achieve. So let’s segway, then, into the real estate investing. So you alluded to the fact of being a real estate agent, you got your license, you’re selling real estate. But you’re also now getting into real estate investing. So as I know, you now have three properties, is that correct?
Tony Guerra: Yeah, we’ll close on the other one the first week of July. But I’ll have three again. And we kind of talked through the very first things that I did and then — so I have a 20-state, 20-year real estate career. And this will be my 10th property that I’ve moved in some way or another.
Tim Ulbrich: OK.
Tony Guerra: But I only own three. I only own three right now.
Tim Ulbrich: So why don’t we — obviously, you have the primary residence, and we’ll come back and talk about that because I think there’s some due diligence that people need to do in buying their primary home. But specifically from the real estate investing side, why did you look at this area and say, ‘As a pharmacist, this is something that I want to get into in the long run?’ You mentioned currently owning three. You’ve been involved in 10 properties. So talk to us a little bit about your mindset around real estate investing as a category or as an area. And maybe for you, where did that fit in while you’re also looking at more traditional streams such as a 401k, 403b, and the timing of those.
Tony Guerra: OK. So let’s kind of go all the way back to graduation and you know, should I rent? Or should I buy a home? And the first thing that I did, and when I did look at my student loans, I heard, I was like, why is this not tax-deductible? And your student loan interest is not tax-deductible, but it is deductible on a home loan. So my parents owned a vacation home, and the first home I bought was for $1. I bought it from them for $1; they were able to transfer it to me.
Tim Ulbrich: Sounds pretty awesome.
Tony Guerra: Yeah. Well, they took back the loan. So then I had to pay them monthly payments, but then I immediately put a mortgage on the property and then paid off the student loans so that now, the interest that I would have had on the student loans was now tax-deductible.
Tim Ulbrich: Got it.
Tony Guerra: So that was kind of the first deal I made. This is a deal that’s very common now with the new graduates in all fields in that they’re deciding to rent where they’re going to live, but they’re getting in the real estate market in a different area. So for example, if somebody wants to move to San Francisco, it’s a lot easier to find a rental with maybe rent control or something that’s a little bit more manageable and then buy something maybe in Nevada that’s maybe a vacation home or something like that. So the first thing I did was recognize that a home is a commitment as much as it is a marriage. And you don’t go into a marriage just saying, ‘Oh, look, I qualify for this marriage. Time to get married.’ You know? And I think a lot of people do that. They’re like, ‘Well, I think I should buy a home because it’s supposed to be tax-deductible interest.’ And that may or may not be true with the new tax code. So the first thing I would say is, find a place you want to live and get to know it. And so I lived there a year before I ever bought a home in Tempe. So I didn’t — my first piece of advice is to not buy a home in an area that you haven’t known for at least a year.
Tim Ulbrich: Amen. Yes. Yeah, that’s a mistake actually my wife and I — we had been in the relative area for a year but didn’t know well enough. And we were kind of itching from a renting standpoint, and as I look back, a little bit more patience would have done us a lot of good in terms of the rest of our financial plan. We’ll link in the show notes, there’s actually a good calculator the New York Times has to do a rent-to-buy comparison because I think a lot of times I hear people say things like, ‘Well, my rent costs $1,000, and the mortgage costs $1,000.’ But as you know, that’s not an apples-to-apples comparison. So really trying to look at your financial situation and look at all the pieces to say, where does this fit in in terms of the buy of knowing the area? But also where does it fit in with rest of a financial plan? So where did you then see real estate investing beyond your primary home come into play? And how did you determine it was a right time to get involved in that? Was there a certain point where you said, I’ve got enough equity in my primary home, I’m on the path with my other retirement savings, so now’s the time? When did you make that jump into investing?
Tony Guerra: Well, I first thought I didn’t agree with you on this, but now I do agree with you on this — when I had 20 percent to put down.
Tim Ulbrich: OK.
Tony Guerra: And because I had bought this vacation home, which was in Ocean City, Maryland, so I actually never lived in it more than the 14 days you’re allowed by the tax code as a rental, that I decided to just buy something in Tempe. And the first thing I would say is don’t ever try to time it. The market is crazy. You know, right now, you would say, ‘OK, well now prices are going up. So now maybe I shouldn’t buy because they’re going up, and I shouldn’t do it.’ But then you’ve got this investing coming from China, and I just saw in the news that a house in San Francisco went $1.6 million over asking.
Tim Ulbrich: Gees.
Tony Guerra: So you know, you might say, ‘Oh, well you know, the student loan bubble’s coming and all these things so prices are going to drop, you know, in a couple years.’ And then you have this weird investing thing coming from another country. Timing it is not the way to go in terms of like trying to time when the best time to buy is. But what I liked was that once I had 20% to put down, I don’t want to say I was a bully, but I was kind of a bully. When you make an offer, and you’re putting 20% down, all of a sudden because of the savings rate in the U.S. and all of these things, you are in the pull position. All of a sudden, that seller is like, ‘Whoa. I don’t want to upset this person. I want to get them.’ So when I offered on my Tempe home, I offered under asking in what is a white hot market. The summer, right by Arizona State, to the east side of Arizona State University, is a white hot market. And I was able to offer a little under asking because I had 20% to put down. So when I talk about timing, don’t time the market. Time yourself. Time your own situation because if you have built up 20%, that 20% is actually — I don’t want to say a symptom — but that 20% represents that you have gotten your financial house in order and that you are ready to buy a home.
Tim Ulbrich: Yes.
Tony Guerra: That you are financially ready, and a lot of the things that you put in your course and things like that. So don’t look at 20% as I have to do this thing first, it’s 20% will come if you do all the steps right. And I did a lot of things right in that year, and I took a little money out of that deal I did with my parents, and I bought a house that was $90,000. So the 20% wasn’t a ton of money.
Tim Ulbrich: The other thing — and I would love your input on this — the other thing to me, and my wife and I are hopefully going to be dabbling in this a little bit more here in the near future, but one of the things that interests me about real estate investing is that it has an opportunity, if done well, it has an opportunity for a cash flow on a monthly basis that is not waiting until a traditional withdrawal age for a retirement account of 59 and a half like a 401k, 403b or a Roth IRA. And so I think as people are out there maybe thinking, Oooo, I like pharmacy, I don’t love pharmacy, maybe I want to do something different — at the right time, and if done well, I think real estate investing or business ventures like we’ve talked about the work you’ve already done are alternative revenue streams that aren’t having to wait to a certain age to be able to draw down money over time. And so when you looked at this most recent one you mentioned is out in Tempe, right?
Tony Guerra: Mmhmm. Yep.
Tim Ulbrich: Was that connection because you know the area from being out there previously? Or how do you, I guess how do you approach real estate investing outside of your backyard and feeling comfortable — I’m assuming are you working with a property manager? What does that look like kind of day-to-day on those rentals?
Tony Guerra: OK, well let me give you the big picture. And again, this is kind of advanced investing. Let me actually talk a little bit about just buying a home, and then I’ll talk about this more advanced investing. So if you are — let me talk first about a single person. If you’re a single person coming out of college, and you’re going to buy a home, buy a home as if it were a — my thought is to buy a home as if it were a rental, and make sure that you have at least two other rooms that you’re renting out to other people or at least one other room. Don’t buy a house with just one toilet. Make sure there are two toilets because if you have one toilet, it’s an emergency if it doesn’t work. And that’s my first thing is get cash flow from the place that you’re living in. If you are married, and you’re like, I am not living with anyone anymore, that time is done, we are grownups now, I’m not doing that — and that was — but my wife and I did have somebody always in the basement while we were in residency here. Then my thought with maybe what you and Jess are thinking about is to start thinking about using a team approach. So my wife is a great lurker. She loves to look at homes, so if I say, ‘Hey, can you look at houses here?’ and so forth, that would be something she would be all over it. And then I would be the one that’s crunching the numbers, like, ‘Oh, that’s not going to cash flow at all.’ ‘But it looks so good!’ ‘No, the cash flow is terrible.’ You know? So when I looked at this Tempe home, I almost pulled the trigger on a house — and this is how hot the market is. They asked me to waive the appraisal. So I would pay in if it didn’t appraise. And I was close to doing it. It was $185,000 for a two-bedroom, and I just couldn’t do it. You know, my sensor was going off, like don’t do it, don’t do it. But you want the house! Don’t do it, don’t do it. And then I talked to my wife, and she’s like, ‘No. That’s dumb. Don’t do that.’ So always bring your wife in. She’s turned down a number of the ones that I was like, ‘Oh, I love this one!’ She’s like, ‘No. Why? I just don’t feel good about it.’ And I’ve learned over my 10 years, now almost 11 years of marriage, ‘I don’t feel good about it’ — you want to listen to that sentence. Always, always. But when I went from the two-bedroom that I didn’t buy, I bought a place that’s now a three-bedroom, two-bath in the same place. It’s a mile from a Starbucks and a Target. That seems to be — follow people that are smarter. If you’re trying to go into an up-and-coming area, if you see a Target moving in and then a Starbucks, those are really smart people. Follow those guys. But if you’re going in, if you and Jess are looking for a place, I would start in terms of looking at one, but the other caveat is that I was looking in four different areas of the country so I could see what’s going on. So at Tempe, 85281, 85284; I was looking in Baltimore, 21230, 21224, where I think Tim Baker is, I was looking in Gainesville, Florida, I don’t remember the zip code, and then I was looking in Ocean City, Maryland. So four places I knew, but I was looking at four different markets. And Tempe, in many ways, I just wanted it. My parents are going to end up moving to Arizona, there are a lot of reasons I picked it, but I was looking at different areas, so I didn’t have this kind of myopic view. And I think, not to keep talking too long, but when you’re looking at pharmacy school admissions — I help a lot of pre-pharmacy people — if you’re trying to get the best deal from one school, you might not get the best deal because you’re not looking at all the schools. Just as you know, you’re looking at one repayment plan. You want to look at all the repayment plans. But that was my kind of thought. And in terms of who I had there, Lisa Schofield (?) is my contact there in Arizona, she’s been a realtor for 17 years, I’ve done other deals with her when I was there. Having somebody that’s knowledgeable with investing. You don’t want just a real estate agent, especially not someone that’s related to you. You want someone that specializes in working with investors.
Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff. And to wrap up this section on real estate, I would reference listeners back to episodes 040 and 041, we had Nate Hedrick, the Real Estate RPH on, we talk about 10 things every pharmacist should know about home buying. And I think, Tony, I really appreciate — we haven’t talked as much on this podcast about real estate investing, but I think right time, right place, for many pharmacists, it’s a great move to think about obviously building your own financial foundation and house in order first, but when the right time is there — and I think for many listeners, that may already be there — to be pursuing real estate investing as an alternative way to diversify their investments at large. So I have a couple kind of next-level questions that are not related to any specific topic here, but as I hear this conversation to you, what sticks out to me is that you’re incredibly motivated. You obviously have a significant drive. You have an entrepreneurial mindset. You’re creative in the way that you think; you see alternative revenue streams. You’re willing to look at things that are in an outside-of-the-box way. Where does that come from? Where do you attribute to having that skill set? Is that something you feel like was taught by your parents? Have there been mentor that influenced you? Where would you say that’s come from?
Tony Guerra: This might be disappointing, but its fear. Absolute terror. And it comes from when I started, and I came back to Maryland after four years of being in Arizona, I had something go on with my leg, and I thought it was some kind of rheumatoid arthritis or something like that. It ended up being that I was standing 12 hours a day, and my IT bands were pulling so hard on my knee that I was in knee pain, but I actually, you know, I had to get it so I had a stool that I could sit on, and then I really thought I was going to lose my career. So I thought I was going to go to — I didn’t know what I was going to go to. And so that fear and then also watching the collapse of the real estate market, I was a little better prepared there, but I went from a $253,000 income to doing residency with my wife. So I went from $253,000 to $40,000. So seeing those two drops, I wish I could say I’m motivated by some great, entrepreneurial spirit, all these things, but it’s just fear of not having money. And I think people that maybe have gone through the Great Depression had this kind of mindset, maybe people that were crushed by the drop in ‘08 had this mindset. But really, it’s just that I was really fearful. But the most important caveat in terms of entrepreneurship is to give, ask and receive. So I continue to give without hope of getting anything back, and things come back to you. But that’s kind of my mindset. I’m a little bit scared about money, and that’s why I have two years’ worth of income in my savings account. That’s pathologic to have that much there. But I’m just scared of going through that again, and I never want to have to take a job or a career that takes me away from my children, makes me into a person that comes home that is just so dissatisfied with my work that I’m taking it out on my family, and I feel like that maybe happens a lot. And I just didn’t want to go back there again, ever again.
Tim Ulbrich: So obviously, there’s the fear of money there, which obviously is real. But as I also look at the work you’re doing on the Pharmacy Leaders podcast, I can tell there’s a very intentional pathway of shaping future leaders of the profession that is beyond just wanting to create revenue streams. So as you think about the work that you’re doing there and even some of your other entrepreneurial work, what are you hoping down the road to look back and say, this is what I was trying to do, this is what I was accomplishing. It’s a thought that’s been hanging with me a lot over the last year of, when I’m 70-75, you’re in retirement, what am I going to look back and say, this is what I was trying to achieve, this was the goal that I was going after. So with your work around the pharmacy leaders podcast, developing future leaders, maybe even modeling kind of entrepreneurship, what is that goal for you? What is that pathway?
Tony Guerra: I see time differently. I can’t see really past dinner. I’m very short-term; my wife is very long-term. And usually, people come together that way. So something will really bother me that might be due three weeks from now but I feel like I have to get it done now. So I guess when I look at what’s going on with pharmacy, I see, I guess I’m really scared for them in many ways as a parent who looks at it, and I know that certain students are going to be absolutely fine. These are the kind of national candidates, I look at their resumes, their CVs, what they’ve done, and what they’ve done differently is they’ve invested in other people. And I guess I just fear for them, and that’s why I keep interviewing them and giving them a space to be interviewed so that they can share what they have with the other people that may be making some mistakes. And you can never change someone’s mind, but what you can do is put out the people that are doing it right and expose them to those people. Casey Rathburn, for example, from the University of Houston, comes up, Dallas Tolburg (?) from University of Maryland, (inaudible name) are names that come to mind. These are the people that have invested so much in their pharmacy education in helping other people while they were in pharmacy school that it all came back to them — in the residencies they wanted, the career and eventually the careers they want, so I’m just seeing that if you just try to get through pharmacy school and you’re not known for anything, as Blair Thielemier says, you’re going to be in trouble. But if you continue to invest in other people as Ahmad Ahmad (?) who just started the Your Power Pursuit of Purpose podcast, those are the kinds of people that are going to have no problem. So that’s what my drive comes from. It’s just like, look, I made a bunch of mistakes when I came out. I think I can help a lot of people if I can expose other people to these leaders that are moving and shaping their own lives and other people’s lives.
Tim Ulbrich: Great wisdom there. And if our listeners have not yet checked out the Pharmacy Leaders podcast, please do. You’ve done an awesome job with that podcast, super inspirational, I think motivational for students and really helping shape the future of these leaders. I think you’re, what? 129, 130 episodes in already? Something like that?
Tony Guerra: Yeah, like I said, that’s kind of pathologic too. I mean, I do 3-4 episodes a week. Casey Rathburn (?) said, ‘Hey, can I do some episodes?’ I was like, OK, and she gave me seven episodes in three days. So you know, I wanted to make a space, but again, it’s so in line with what I do. I’m just a people-y person, so I like to talk to people. So it’s not work. And you know, if you’re doing something that you love, you’ll never work a day in your life.
Tim Ulbrich: So we’ll link to that in the show notes. Again, that’s the Pharmacy Leaders podcast. Now, one final — it’s actually kind of a split question — but I want to end here because I would be remiss if we didn’t talk about family. I know it’s important to you, you’re a father of triplets. You’ve got all of these things going on, your day job and your real estate investing, your book, your podcast. So two questions I have here for you that I know will be inspirational for me and probably even help me as well in my own journey. How do you balance all of this with the kids and obviously a marriage? And then second to that, how has some of these ventures in your financial success allowed you and created the space to enjoy the time with family that I perceive to be so important for you?
Tony Guerra: OK. You know, marry the right person.
Tim Ulbrich: Yes, Amen.
Tony Guerra: I hate to say that, it’s kind of a cliche. But man, marry the right person. But the one thing that we did was we did the Five Love Languages book. And I’m physical, which means that it’s better for her to tap me on the shoulder than to say anything to me when she comes home. And hers is service. And I can’t believe I didn’t know this until about seven or eight years in our marriage, but that means that the things that I do, making sure the house is clean when she comes home, it’s the first thing she sees is clean house, not extra work to do after a long day at the VA. So that’s my first recommendation is figure out which love language you have and which love language your spouse has because then you can know what’s important to them. So that allows the marriage to work well. And you’ve talked about “The Millionaire Next Door,” and most millionaires are married with three kids, and that’s the first thing. That’s the strength. But the other thing was — I guess I took for granted, and I didn’t do the episode, I should have, but the Father’s Day episode — I took for granted that 100,000 pharmacists each Father’s Day are probably working, you know, men and women. And I took for granted that this Sunday, I could be with my kids, coach their soccer team, and I think that was the other part is that I work so much because I’m fighting for that time to not have to ever say, ‘Dad’s got to work.’ And my one daughter just absolutely threw a dagger at us one morning. She’s like, ‘Daddy, you always get to come to the parties on Friday. Why does Mommy never get to come?’ And I was just like, oh my gosh, how do I answer this? And so I made sure to — I was like, ‘Daddy just doesn’t make enough money yet. And when Daddy makes enough money, then there’s going to be no problem with Mom coming to everything.’ She’s like, ‘Well, Daddy, you just need to work another job.’ And so I think too many pharmacists accept that that’s just how it is, I work weekends, every other weekend. And I have to tell you, if you follow the steps that you have in your loan course, I can tell you that once they get out of that debt, they could do a 32-hour week or a 24-hour week, no problem. And then they would have, they could stop having those conversations with their children, and they could have really good conversations like, you know, wasn’t that a great game that we had on Sunday?
Tim Ulbrich: Tony, great stuff. And I know your work has been an inspiration to me. I appreciate you taking time to come on this podcast, I appreciate your support of the YFP podcast. And I’m sure we’ll be finding lots of opportunities to partner in the future. So thank you again for coming on today’s episode, I appreciate it.
Tony Guerra: Yeah, I appreciate it too. Thanks so much, Tim.
On Episode 52 of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, YFP Team Member Tim Ulbrich walks through 5 steps that you should take to crush your student loans. More specifically, these 5 steps will help you begin to develop a payoff strategy and plan that is best for your personal situation. This episode is filled with lots of action steps that have been summarized in the YFP Student Loan Quick Start Guide that is available to download for free at http://www.yourfinancialpharmacist.com/studentloanguide
Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to Episode 052 of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. I’m flying solo this week, and I’m going to be walking through 5 steps that you can take to put a plan in place that will help crush your student loans or if you’re seeking loan forgiveness, will help you to maximize forgiveness. Now, as a reminder, as I mentioned in the intro, there is no need to take notes. We have compiled all this information we’re going to talk about on this episode into a quick start student loan guide. So I don’t want any driving or biking casualties to happen because of the YFP podcast. I really don’t think we have the right insurance in place to cover that. So anyways, head on over to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/studentloanguide. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/studentloanguide to get a copy today and so you can begin to put your own plan in place.
Now, I want to give lots of credit to Tim Church and Tim Baker. As you know, YFP team members had lots of input into this guide and into this student loan course I’m going to talk about a little bit later on this episode. So here we are again, talking about student loans. Now, I think that’s no surprise. We obviously just graduated the class of 2018, so we have lots of new graduates that are there, thinking about, what should I be doing with my student loans and as we hear from the YFP community and the YFP Facebook group and through emails that we receive, over and over again, this topic of student continues to come up as a point of stress, as a point that’s causing people to be overwhelmed and frustrated. And so we want to continue to bring you valuable content to help you with your own student loan payoff plan and strategy.
Now, Tim Baker, on last week’s episode had mentioned that he and I just got back from USC out in California, had a great trip out there, working with their students, and we were really impressed just with the program and the school. Overall, just great hospitality, and it reminded us again that we could continue to see and hear this feeling from soon-to-be graduates, this feeling of being overwhelmed, this reality setting in that, you know what, I knew I was going to be making a great income, but I really didn’t anticipate this level of stress when it came to my student loans and what I’m going to have to pay back and how it is going to impact my other financial goals that I’m going to be achieving.
Now, I know for many listening that maybe just graduated, this is obviously the grace period for many of your student loans, if not all of your student loans. And I think that term, the grace period, often lulls people into inaction. And more than ever, the grace period is the time when you should be taking action, thinking about what repayment plan or strategy is best for your personal situation and maybe even making payments because for all those unsubsidized loans, obviously your interest is accruing during this grace period. So if you’re somebody who’s listening, just graduated, you’re thinking grace period, I’ve got some time — yes, technically, you do have time. But what a good time to be taking action to putting a plan in place.
Now, I can attest just from personal experience that having a plan, having clarity around what you’re trying to do with your student loans is so important to having peace of mind. I think back to the journey that Jess and I had where we were paying off $200,000 or so of student loans, and for the first few years after I got out of residency, we were really wandering through that repayment plan, always wondering, how long are these going to be around? Are we balancing these appropriately with other goals? And the second we put a plan in place, we may still have been frustrated that it was taking so long, that we wanted to do other things, but that clarity of having a plan was so important to us having peace of mind and to us being able to move on with executing that plan and thinking about other financial goals. So if you’re listening today, whether you’re a new grad, you’ve been out five years, seven years, 10 years, and you’re feeling frustrated, our goal with this episode and the content we’re bringing you around student loans is to help you put a plan in place that provides clarity and hopefully, we can be the inspiration and motivation to you doing that.
Now, we talked a lot on this podcast and on the blog and in speaking engagements that we’ve done, we’ve talked a lot about the landscape of student loan debt. I would refer you back to episode 004 and 005. In 004, we talked about the landscape of student loan debt. In episode 005, we interviewed Dr. Joey Mattingly to talk about the impact of student loan debt on new graduates. And obviously, we’ve talked since then about getting a plan in place on some level, getting organized, we’ve talked about Public Service Loan Forgiveness, we’ve talked about refinancing. I’ll link to all of these in the show notes. But here today, I’m going to walk through a 5-step process that brings a lot of these pieces together that I think will help you put some clarity to the plan that you need to put in place and that you need to execute.
Now, I’d be remiss if I didn’t quickly paint the picture of what new graduates are dealing with when it comes to student loan debt. So we’re still awaiting the most up-to-date data from the class of 2018, but from the class of 2017, we know that the median amount borrowed for those that went to a public school was about $130,000. For those that went to private school was about $200,000. Now, anytime I mention that figure in a room of pharmacists, I literally get no emotional reaction. And I think that really speaks to how normal we feel like this situation is. Now, you’ve heard me talk before on this podcast that we need to get ourselves out of that lull of this is a normal situation, because if we look historically in terms of the pharmacist’s salary relative to indebtedness, we’re in a relatively abnormal period of time where debt loads are outpacing salary increases in a very significant way. And this should be getting all of us fired up to have more conversations around this topic. And really, in reality, salaries aren’t even keeping pace on average with inflation, let alone thinking about the debt component and what impact that’s having. And so what does that mean? That means, as we talked about in Episode 005 with Joey Mattingly, that means that a graduate coming out today, the purchasing, the ability of their income is less than it was five years ago, 10 years ago or even 15 years ago. Has the salary number increased? Yes, of course it has. But when you account for inflation and you account for the significant rises in student loan debt, the purchasing power of a pharmacist’s salary is eroding each and every year. Now, what does that mean for you that’s listening? That means that we have to do some more work with, be a little bit more diligent, with having a plan in place so that we can attack these student loans and have clarity on how we’re going to pay them off so we can move forward with achieving the rest of the financial plan. And so whether you’re somebody that’s overwhelmed with your loans, you’re not sure if you have the best plan in place, this podcast is going to help you with the 5 steps that I really think you need to take to start putting that plan in place when it comes to your student loans. So let’s jump in to those 5 things.
OK, No. 1. If you’re somebody that’s listening, and you’re thinking, I’m not even sure exactly what I have when it comes to my student loans, the very first thing that you have to do is inventory your federal loans and then inventory your private loans. And then third, we talk often about you have to inventory any loans you have from what we call “The Bank of Mom and Dad,” so family members or friends or other people that have loaned you money, this is the time to get clarity on what are their expectations with getting that money back? So let’s talk about inventorying your federal loans first, then your private loans, then of course, you can talk with family or friends about any other loans or any other money that you have borrowed. So when it comes to your federal loans, these are loans that are owned by the U.S. Department of Education, and the easiest way to get ahold of these is to go to the nslds.ed.gov or go to the studentloan.gov repayment estimator, and I’ll link to both of those in the show notes, and you’ll be asked to log in with your FSA ID, what’s known as your Federal Student Aid ID. Now, if you don’t know what I’m talking about, you don’t know what an FSA ID is, or you can’t remember one, don’t worry. You can quickly create a new one. And once you log in, that’ll get you into the system, and you can then see the total balance of your federal loans, you can see a weighted average interest rate of your loans, and then you’ll begin to see all of the details of your individual loans. What’s the loan title? What’s the interest rate? Who’s servicing those loans? And what’s the balance of those loans? So the first step is we need to inventory and get a list of our federal loans. Then you need to do the same in the step of inventorying your loans, you need to inventory your private loans. And we believe that the easiest way to start here is to pull a credit report from annualcreditreport.com. Now, if you’re not familiar with annualcreditreport.com, this is a website that’s authorized by the federal government to issue a free credit report from one of three companies, Experian, TransUnion or Equifax, once per year from each one of those three companies. Now, this is only updated every 30 days or so. So all this is a great starting point to see all debt that you may have and to just check your credit activity. I would then suggest once you identify a private loan, to go to the individual lender, whether that’s Chase or Wells Fargo or Citizen Bank or whomever you’re working with to get the most up-to-date information on the balance and the interest rate of the loan. So let me say that again. Go to annualcreditreport.com, get an overall picture, make sure you’re capturing everything, you’re not missing anything, you can get a complete inventory of your private loans, and then you can head to the individual lender that’s mentioned on that credit report to get the final details. So Step. No. 1 here is inventory your loans — that’s your federal loans, your private loans, and then “The Bank of Mom and Dad.” Now, what I always tell people when it comes to “The Bank of Mom and Dad” — and I love my parents — but if they were to loan me money, and they were going to forgive that money, I’m only going to ask the question once, and then I’m not going to ask it again, right? Now, if they are expecting that money to be repaid, I cannot emphasize enough the importance of getting clarity and having that difficult conversation. When do they want that money back? Are they expecting interest or not? What specifically is the agreement between both parties so you can make sure that nobody’s getting upset and that you can account for it in your repayment plan with your other loans?
So here you are, after Step No. 1, you now have a complete inventory of all of your student loans. Now, in our student loan course, which I’m going to talk about a little bit at the end of this podcast, we walk you through exactly how to get an inventory of your loans. We walk you through screenshots and then we walk through the process of making sure you have all of your federal and your private loans and making sure you understand all of the details that you’ll find through those sites. So Step No. 1 is inventorying your loans.
Step No. 2, then, is to determine the options that you have available to you as you begin to think about the repayment options. And there’s really three buckets that we think about here. There’s tuition reimbursement, there’s forgiveness, and then there’s non-forgiveness. Now, tuition reimbursement — so there’s some fairly well known tuition reimbursement programs that are offered by the federal government and the military. But a lot of people also may not know that there’s state-specific programs that are available. And we actually have a supplemental resource in the YFP student loan online course for pharmacists that highlights state-by-state what those programs are, and I think a lot of people are probably and potentially leaving money on the table that they’re not aware of. And these state programs vary in structure, vary in terms of the length of service and what’s being exchanged, but ultimately, typically requires that the borrower pay a specific amount out-of-pocket and then they essentially will match that amount for a certain number of years for service. So what I always tell people, if there’s tuition reimbursement programs that are on the table, whether that be with the VA, the Indian Health Service, maybe a state-specific program, maybe a military program, that typically is going to be the first option that you want to take. Then, you start to evaluate the other options that are available. The next one I mentioned was forgiveness. So most notably here would be the Public Student Loan Forgiveness program, and I point people back to Episode 018 where we talk about that in detail. And also, a lot of people don’t know that there’s a non-PSLF, non-Public Student Loan Forgiveness program, that’s available within the federal loan repayment system as well. So here you need to determine, am I going to pursue forgiveness or not? If you decide forgiveness is the right amount that you may pursue, you’re then looking at the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program, which basically says if you work for a qualifying employer, so federal government or agency or a non-profit 501c3 organization, if you work for them, make 120 payments, the payments do not have to be consecutive, and ultimately, after a 10-year period if you work full-time and you meet all of these requirements, your loan balance is forgiven, and it’s forgiven tax-free. Now, again, I’ll point you back to Episode 018 because we talked about some of the pros and cons of this program, and so I’m giving a very short synopsis of that program here. What a lot of people don’t realize is that there’s actually a forgiveness option that is not PSLF but is also found within the federal loan repayment options. And we’re calling that the non-PSLF forgiveness. Now, what this essentially says is after you make a certain number of years of payments — typically it’s 20-25 years — you are forgiven a balance of your loans, but it’s not forgiven tax-free, so that’s the downside is it’s not tax-free forgiveness. But the upside is it doesn’t have the restrictions of a qualifying employer that does the PSLF program. Now, some of you may be thinking, why in the world would I want my loans to be around for 20 or 25 years? And what we have found is that generally speaking, those that have a very high debt-to-income ratio and those that are not working for a qualifying employer, this is an option that you at least want to evaluate to see if it makes sense. So let’s say you’re somebody listening who works for a for-profit company, maybe a CVS or Walgreen’s or another for-profit company, and maybe you have $300,000 or more of debt. This may be a program you want to at least look at the math amongst other factors to determine whether or not this repayment plan and option is best for you. And we talk in a lot more detail in the course and walk through the scenarios where this would and would not make sense. So first, you’re thinking about tuition reimbursement programs. I mentioned those with the federal government, the military or state-specific programs. Then you’re thinking about forgiveness options, either PSLF or non-PSLF forgiveness in the federal repayment system. And then finally, you’re thinking about the non-forgiveness options. So when I talk about non-forgiveness, this simply means you just pay them off, whether that be you stay in the federal system and you pay them off in five years, 10 years, 15 years, depending on the repayment plan, or you could potentially refinance your loans with a private lender — and again, you could get a five-year refinance, a seven-year, a 10-year, a 15-year, a 20-year, and that really varies by the different lenders. Now, if you’re thinking is refinance right for me? What exactly is refinance? How should I balance this against other options? I would point you to our refinance resource page, which is at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/refinance, where we talk all about what a refinance is, who should consider it, who should not consider it, and then we’ve got some great cash bonuses for you for those that it makes sense to move forward with a refinance. As I’ll talk about at the end of the podcast, if you’re hearing these options and you’re thinking, there’s a lot to consider, we talk in detail throughout the course of getting to the point where you have clarity on the one payoff plan and strategy that makes the most sense for your personal situation. So here I’ve really mentioned three buckets: tuition reimbursement, forgiveness or non-forgiveness. And for each person listening, the course of action and the path forward and what’s going to save the most money and make the most sense in the context of other financial goals that you have is very individualized from one person to the other. So Step No. 1 was inventorying your loans. Step No. 2 was determining the loan options that you have available, repayment options.
Step No. 3, then, what we’re thinking about here is looking at doing the math to determine what the difference is between these options. And one of the common mistakes that I think we’re seeing a lot of people do is as the repayment plans — especially with the federal repayment system, and even in a refinance situation — we tend to fall into the mindset of looking at things on a monthly basis. So let’s say you’re looking at your federal loan repayment options, you’re looking at payee, re-payee, the standard, the graduated, the extended programs that are out there, we tend to think of things in a monthly basis in terms of what is this going to cost me per month. Now, that’s not inherently bad, and I think that’s something we all need to do to make sure that it fits within our monthly budget, but I really want you to take a step back and calculate the total amount that you’re going to pay based on the different repayment options and plans that are available to you, inclusive of all the interest and of course, the original balance on the loan. Now, we have a repayment, some repayment calculators on our site that I think would be great, the repayment estimator at studentloan.gov, which I’ll link to in the show notes, also will help you do this. But you want to get to the point where you can all of these different options and say, ‘This is what it’s going to cost me per month. And this is what it’s going to cost me when it’s all said and done at the end of the life of the loan.’ So if we were to look at a fairly normal situation, a borrower that had $160,000 or so of student loan debt at graduation, let’s assume 6% interest rate on their loans, and they were to choose the 10-year standard loan repayment plan. In that situation, their monthly payment would be approximately $1,800 per month, and they would make that monthly payment for 10 years. Now, when it’s all said and done, their $160,000 would become over $200,000 that they were to pay back. And if they were to take that out to 20 or 25 years, that would become beyond $250,000 that they would pay back because of the interest that’s accruing and compounding on that loan. So again, this is one you really want to look at. What’s the monthly payment? What’s my total amount going to be that I’m going to pay out? And if you’re going to pursue a refinance, you absolutely want to do the math to see how much you would save on a refinance. And we’ve got a calculator and a tool that will help you do that, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/refinance to make sure that you’re really looking at the numbers and evaluating your options that are available. Now, the other piece you really need to think about here as you’re doing the math is what can I afford each and every month to put towards my student loans. What can I afford each and every month to put towards my student loans? Now, if you’re somebody that says, I’m going to go all in and pay these off, the goal is here is obviously as you’re thinking about your monthly budget, your monthly spending plan, is to maximize what you have available to throw at your student loans. If you’re somebody that says, I’m really going to pursue Public Service Loan Forgiveness, and I’m going to go all in, then the strategy shifts, obviously, and you’re trying to minimize the payments to then maximize the forgiveness and move on and pursue other goals that you’re working towards. So the monthly spending plan, the budget piece, is so critical here as you’re evaluating your different repayment options. Should I go with the 10-year standard repayment plan? Should I go with an income-driven plan? Should I go with a refinance? If so, how many years on the refinance? Is Public Service Loan Forgiveness or non-PSLF forgiveness right for me? You cannot answer that question adequately and confidently until you know exactly how much you have available each and every month to put towards your student loans. So the budgeting piece here is critical to making sure you can get to that point. And we talk a lot inside Module 1 of the course in Lesson 5, I walk you step-by-step exactly how to do that so you can make sure and you’re confident as you pursue determining what the right repayment strategy is.
OK, so we’ve talked through three of the 5 steps so far that are going to help you crush your student loans. We talked about inventorying your loans, we talked about evaluating the different options that are available, and we talked about doing the math as you start to begin towards choosing one of those options. Now, the fourth factor is probably one that’s overlooked the most, and this is really thinking about the factors beyond the math, beyond the numbers. Now, most people you talk to, we sit down and we’re really digging into the numbers, we’re digging into the weeds — well, what’s it going to cost per month? What’s the total amount that I’m going to pay? All of that is important, but if we remove the emotional piece of this, we’re going to fall short in making sure we’re choosing the best repayment plan and strategy. And this is the variable where for every person listening, your attitude towards your student loan repayment, your family situation, your other financial goals, your career components, all of these differ from one person to the next and therefore, is going to influence which repayment plan and strategy you choose in addition to the math.
So think about this as the window in which you’re viewing the math, right? But you have to first consider these components. So what is your feeling towards your student loans? Are you somebody that looks at your student loan dead and says, ‘No big deal. It’s a second mortgage, I’m going to have it for 30 years.’ Or are you somebody that loses sleep over student loans and it’s stressing you out? How you choose your repayment plan and your repayment strategy based on those two answers obviously could be very different. What’s your family situation? Are you and a spouse or significant other, do you have the same philosophical beliefs towards that debt? Do you feel the same way about the repayment plan? How is this impacted by your family situation in terms of other goals that you’re trying to achieve? As you think about those other financial goals, where are you in terms of prioritizing those goals? Are you somebody that maybe is in their mid-20s and doesn’t have a family and really is just getting started with 40 years ahead, and you may say, ‘No big deal. I can go all in on my student loans knowing that I can catch up with other goals.’ Maybe you’re somebody that’s listening that’s more mid-career, that has a family, that’s trying to balance a mortgage, trying to balance kids’ college. And obviously, how you choose your repayment strategy and plan may be different. And what about your career? Are you somebody that’s eligible for PSLF? Or are you not? Do you have tuition reimbursement plans that are available or not? All of these components in addition to the math are critical to helping you choose the best repayment plan.
So then we get to No. 5. And the final piece here is you then determine your payoff strategy. So here you make a decision, and you commit to that plan that you have. Now, those first four steps are obviously leading us to this point. And as I start to think about all of the different repayment plans that are available, as I’m sure you’re feeling right now, it can become extremely overwhelming, and often, I see people get paralyzed by this feeling of frustration. I know for me, it’s exactly what happened. I graduated, I did residency, I had many of my loans at 6.8% fixed interest rates, and I did nothing. And I stayed there in the 10-year repayment plan, which might have been — maybe not — but might have been the worst decision that I could have done. I probably should have either refinanced to lower my interest rate or working for a qualifying PSLF employer, I probably should have pursued PSLF. But what did I do? I was overwhelmed, I didn’t know what repayment plan or option I should choose. I didn’t understand interest rates, I didn’t understand what subsidized and unsubsidized was. I didn’t understand the implications and who should refinance and who should not refinance. And so instead of taking the time to really understand that and dig into it — and I didn’t have somebody teaching me that — I ultimately was paralyzed and paid way more interest than I had to through that journey. So as I think about the different repayment plans that are available, here in Step No. 5, a loan just in the federal system, you’ve got more than eight repayment options available. You’ve got the standard 10-year repayment plan. You’ve got the graduated, the extended, the extended fixed. And then you have all of your income-driven repayment plans, ultimately give you a monthly payment that’s based off a percentage of discretionary income, and that varies by the plan. So these are the things like income-based repayment, IBR, old IBR, new IBR, income contingent repayment, ICR, pay-as-you-earn or payee, revised pay-as-you-earn or re-payee. So even there alone, for those of you that are either in active repayment or those of you that are in the grace period, how do you choose one of those plans? What are the strategies to making sure that you have the best one in place? Then you think about on top of that, you have factors of well, should I pursue forgiveness or not? Should I pursue PSLF or non-PSLF forgiveness? Or what about a refinance? And then as you evaluate a refinance, you think about refinance Option A, B or C in terms of three different companies. And then within each of those companies, you have multiple different quotes based on the years that you’re going to be repaying those loans — five years, seven years, 10 years and so on. And so ultimately, as I think about all of these different options that are swirling, as I mentioned, it’s easy to get confused. And it’s no wonder that you start to see people thinking, what are the mistakes that I might be making here? And you can start to begin to see that there’s potential pitfalls if you choose the wrong repayment option or strategy.
And just to give you an idea of how important this decision is, in some of the recent presentations that we’ve been doing, talking about student loans, we walk through a case study of a graduate named Adam who’s single, he makes $125,000, he’s got $160,000 in student loans with 6% interest rate, most of his loans are unsubsidized that are accruing interest, he works for a nonprofit, so he’s PSLF-eligible. But he’s somebody who feels anxious and frustrated about his student loans. He wants to get them paid off as soon as possible. And what we do is we actually walk through a case scenario, exactly what we do in the course, where we outline all of these different repayment options in one table where you can see all the numbers. So what would it look like if he pursued Public Service Loan Forgiveness? What would it look like if he did not pursue Public Service Loan Forgiveness? What about refinance options? And the amazing thing about how important this decision, as I alluded to earlier, you need to not only look at the monthly payment; you need to look at the total amount that you’re going to pay over the life of the repayment period. And in Adam’s case, he might pay as little $137,000 with PSLF because some would be forgiven to as much as $264,000 on the 20-year refinance. Again, that’s a range of $137,000 of out-of-pocket money versus $264,000 that he would pay on a 20-year refinance. So I use that example to say to people, this decision — and Adam’s example, which is a very normal example — this decision to choose the best repayment strategy and option can cost tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars.
And so that’s why we’re so excited to be building on what we just presented here, what I just presented here, and to introduce the YFP student loan online course, which is officially now live at courses.yourfinancialpharmacist.com. Now, you know we’ve been talking about it on the podcast recently. We’ve been building this for — gees — six or nine months, and we’ve had it beta tested, we’ve got some feedback, and we’re so excited to now finally be live with this student loan course because we really feel the No. 1 stressor, the No. 1 frustration that we’ve heard from students, residents, new practitioners, even people that have been out 10 years, is that ‘I can’t get a handle on my student loans, and I’m not sure. And I don’t feel like I have the right plan, and I don’t feel like I have clarity around the plan to make sure that I’m really able to put something together to get these paid off and start achieving my other financial goals.’ And so we’re excited to get this course into your hands.
And here’s what this course offers is 14 different lessons across three modules, about four hours of just awesome content. And as you finish this course, you’ll be able to have a complete inventory of your loans. You’ll have clarity on the one payoff strategy that is best for your situation. So here, I talked a little bit about all these different repayment plans and strategies that are available. And for each one that’s listening to this podcast, what you choose is different than somebody else because of the combination of the math, all the repayment options, and then your attitudes, feelings, family situations, employment situations, all that together means you need a customized approach to getting to the one payoff strategy that is best for your situation. And that’s exactly what we deliver in the course.
We talk about strategies for optimizing payoff. We also are excited — we have a private Facebook group for those that are enrolled in the course so we can engage in discussion, encourage one another, build that community, and then obviously just peace of mind when you ultimately have a plan in place. The other exciting thing about this course is that we’ve got some awesome resources that are involved with the course. We’ve got a workbook that will guide you from start to finish to make sure you achieve the goals that I just mentioned. We’ve got a PSLF checklist to make sure you don’t miss anything if you pursue that. We’ve got a payment tracker for PSLF to make sure that you’re lining up all of your ducks, getting ready to get that amount forgiven. As I mentioned earlier, we’ve got a resource around state-specific loan repayment programs. We’ve got an extensive budgeting template, and then we have an awesome — props to Tim Church for building this — an awesome refinance comparison table to make sure you’re evaluating the best refinance option if you’re pursuing that route. So head on over, again, to courses.yourfinancialpharmacist.com. You’ll see all of the information about the course. You’ll see some success stories of people that have taken the course. And I think for many listening, this course is going to be a game-changer to helping you get clarity around your student loan payoff plan and helping you to ultimately come up with a plan that’s going to get those things paid off or maximize forgiveness if you choose forgiveness and to help you get on the path toward achieving your other financial goals and on the path to achieving financial freedom.
Thanks for joining me today on this episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Excited to be here to talk through 5 steps to help you crush your student loans. Again, head on over to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/studentloanguide to get a copy of all the things that we talked about on this episode so you can begin to put your own plan in place. Until next week, have a great rest of your day.
On Episode 51 of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, YFP Team Member Tim Baker, CFP talks the 8 things to do or avoid to evade financial purgatory after graduating from pharmacy school.
Behavioral Financial – Be On Your Best Behavior
Goal Setting – Know Where You Want to Go
I’m Bringing Budgets Back
Have A Plan For Your Debt – Enroll In Our Student Loan Course
Emergency Fund (Get It Started)
Major Purchases – Treat Yo’self (Just Not With A House Or A Car)
Investment – Getting Started At Least With Your Employer Match
Tim Baker: What’s up, everybody? Welcome to Episode 051 of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Tim Baker here, flying solo, I think for the first time. I guess when you hit Episode 050, I guess we’ve made, so we’ve only sent one Tim to the mic. But all kidding aside, I am happy to be here to host today, and I really want to speak to the recent graduates out there because of I think how important this particular time is in life and in your financial life and in general. So it got me thinking, Tim Ulbrich and I were out at the University of Southern California, speaking to the, basically the entire rising P1s and P3s and the recent graduating class who was hard at work studying for their boards and took some time to listen to Tim Ulbrich and I speak about personal finance. And I’ve got to give USC a shoutout, a well deserved shoutout, to Dr. Park, Carolina and Rocio, I think it was, our stay there and our interaction — Tim Ulbrich and I were excited to come speak, and I think we left even more fired up after our engagement with the students. Super impressive group across the board, and it really got me thinking, especially after talking to the recent graduating class about how important this time is for them. And it really sets the pace. And you know, my work with pharmacists across the country, oftentimes I speak with pharmacists who are five, six, seven years out or more, and they feel like they have nothing to show for it. And I mean, think about even Tim Ulbrich and Tim Church, kind of both admit to, you know, what happened to them after graduation. They were basically kind of sputtering a bit and not really sure how to approach the loans and, you know, not much in the way of making a dent in the debt, maybe a little saved. And I think what often happens is that the pharmacy salary or the promise of that six-figure salary lures you into thinking that everything will be OK because really, you know, as a student, you’re not really making anything. And the promise of making $120,000 soon, you know, once you pass your boards that is, it’ll figure itself out. And that tends not to be the case in a lot of ways. So hopefully, you know, if you are a recent grad, if you’re transitioning to a six-figure income or maybe to a residency program, or if you are a new practitioner and you feel like you’ve been sputtering and this really hits a chord that it’ll prompt you to change course and to right the ship in a sense and get your financial plan in order and really get that moving.
So one of the things that, you know, we discuss often is that, you know, pharmacists on average will make $9 million over the course of your career. $6 million will actually flow through your bank account. So think about that. That’s a lot of money, and I often say to pharmacists, ‘So what are we going to do about it?’ You know, and obviously if you’re transitioning to a residency program, and that might be a little bit of a delayed bird, and that’s OK. And you’re not going to have as much flexibility here as maybe a counterpart that is going, that is foregoing the residency. But I think it’s still important to kind of be mindful of the income that’s going to be coming in.
So back in Episode 035, I had Dr. Sarah Fallaw, who owns Data Points. And basically, that’s a tool that I use that manages a client’s behavior. And it’s based on the research that her father did, Dr. Thomas Stanley, who wrote “The Millionaire Next Door,” and essentially what he studied was that there are really six major factors of the millionaire next door is the people that have achieved a net worth of $1 million or more. You know, there are behavioral factors that come into play that really play a part into achieving that type of wealth. In the episode, we talk about those factors — basically, frugality, confidence, responsibility, focus, planning and monitoring and social indifferent. And these are all factors that play a part and that can be measured versus your peer group. A lot of what I do, you know, is not necessarily — or the value that I provide clients is not really in the order of, ‘Hey, Tim, where should I invest this money? What mutual fund or ETF should I pick? Or what insurance policy should I have?’ And those things are important, but they’re very technical. I think the overarching part of this whole financial planning piece is the behavior, is how we behave. So the message to a recent graduate is be on your best behavior. School is out, you are fixing to make a sizeable income, and not to go nuts. And I use nuts facetiously, but you know, the tendency as humans is that if there is an abundant resource, we’ll spend it. And that could be true as that paycheck flows through your account, you feel that, man, I have a lot of money, what can I buy? What can I purchase? And in the age of social media where everyone’s getting a new car and a big house and taking these trips — and those things are important, and those things, some of those things are important. Those things should be baked into your financial plan. You know, the social indifference part of it is that you’re not going to get caught up in the FOMO or the YOLO of things. And to be honest, I would say that you should, you just graduated, you should treat yourself. You should be able to splurge some and celebrate those wins. But do it in a way that is purposeful, that is maybe not long lasting. So don’t go out and buy, you know, a $50,000 car that you might not be able to afford because that one’s tough to get out from under, and now you’re stuck with that car payment. But I think the behavior is such a big part of this.
So aside from being on your best behavior, think about your goals. And it sounds trivial, and it sounds really not that important, but when I interviewed Tim Ulbrich and Jessica Ulbrich back in Episode 032 and 033 where we talked about find your why, these are often questions that we don’t ask ourselves or we don’t talk about with our spouse or our partner. And we should. And sometimes it’s just life gets busy, and we really don’t take the time to say, where am I going? Why did I go to school and get this degree? And why am I taking this job to earn this money? Like what’s the point? And I often say to clients, you know, because the way that I work with clients and the way that I price my services is based on the client’s income and net worth. And you know, because I think that is the best way to measure basically financial health and progress. And I think it has the least amount of conflicts of interest with regard to giving sound advice. But it’s flawed in a sense that if we work together for 30 years, and I help that client their nest egg number of $5 million or $6 million or whatever the heck it is and they can comfortably retire, but they’re miserable because they haven’t done things that they wanted to do throughout life like hike Machu Picchu or do that European trip or maybe have a family or buy this house or whatever it is, what’s the point? You know, what’s the point of that? And I think it’s a constant exercise in taking care of the present self and looking to the horizon and making sure that we’re taking care of the 30-year or 40-year-older self as well. And I often think that like if you don’t feel that push and pull, you’re probably not doing it right. And I think that’s the same with budgeting, the evil b-word. If you’re not feeling kind of the push and pull — and I think if you’re doing effective budgeting, you’re creating a sense of scarcity because you’re doing the things, you know, the proverbial things like paying yourself first, which is easier in theory, harder in practice.
So in terms of your goal, we subscribe to the what, when and why method. So that basically means that we have statements that basically look like this: “I will x by y so that z.” So what, when and why. So an example of that would be “I will save $5,000 by December 31, 2018 so I can protect my financial plan from an emergency.” That’s a pretty good one. And that actually might not be a bad one — obviously, this is not advice — but that might not be a bad one to look at. But I think another part of this — and we talk about this often is like, you know, think about your goals. But how do you feel about them? Like when you think about — obviously, the elephant in the room is student debt. And you might have heard us talk about student debt once or twice on this podcast. How do you feel about the debt? How do you feel about being able to retire at age 50 or 60? Or how do you feel about the prospect of hustling over the next few years to get through the debt? Or the prospect of investing and watching your, basically your nest egg grow? I think often that we try to — and I say we, maybe it’s my profession or whatever — but we try to out-math you and say, well, time value money and blah blah blah. And that stuff is important, but like if I have clients that are like, I can’t sleep or I’m anxious because these student loans are just gnawing at me, well, let’s do something about it. Let’s be proactive. And you know, the math might say one thing. But that doesn’t mean that that has to be our path. So really think about how you feel and you know, challenge yourself. What are 3-5 financial goals you can write down today and realistically achieve in the next five years? And what I often do with clients, and I think we did on the episodes with the Ulbrichs was transport yourself to that time in the future. So if you’re 26, and you’re thinking five years, uh, I don’t know. I don’t know what I would do in five years, think about it as if you’re 31. And then look back as a 31-year-old and think about that half a decade that just went by, and ask yourself, what does success look like? And I think if you can kind of start with the end in mind and look back, it makes it a little easier to do. I think.
So think about your goals. And really, the next step — and man, I’m going to say it. I’m going to beat the horse dead once again. But it’s the budget. It’s all about that budget. And you know, I think for people that have big, hairy, audacious goals or that — and one of them might be to get through the student debt as fast as possible. One might be to basically be in a position where they can retire comfortably early. It really could be anything. But really take the time — and you know, if you are a pharmacist that recently graduated, hopefully — you know, when we were talking to USC, a lot of their students, they were about ready to go to their residency, and obviously they knew what they were going to make or they had jobs from whether it was community pharmacy lined up, and they had offer letters. So you more or less get a sense of what you are potentially taking home every month. So determine that take-home pay. You know, do some calculations of what will come out because of taxes and different, you know, whether it’s health insurance or all that type of stuff. And then really next is determine what your essential expenses are. So in my world, we call these nondiscretionary monthly expenses. So these are things that are going to come out regardless of if you have a job or not. So things like your student debt payment. That could be argued because if you do have financial hardship, a lot of times, both with your federal loans and even if you were to do a private refi, a lot of those situations, you can get some reprieve. But I probably would calculate it as such. The essential expenses are going to be things like your mortgage or your rent, groceries, utilities, cell phone bill. We can’t live without our cell phone, right? So take a tabulation or make a list of all those expenses and add them up. And then really the next thing is to take and determine your discretionary expenses, so that could be entertainment like Netflix, Hulu, going to the movies, things that if it were to hit the fan, you probably could cut. And then from there, you can essentially determine what is left over, which is your disposable income. And by the way, part of what the essential expense probably should be is savings. So savings is actually categorized as an expense because you are foregoing immediate consumption. So what I often do with clients, and I do it with their client portal, we’ll do a retroactive budget. It’s one of the first meetings we go through. If we determine that, hey, we have $10,000 flowing through our account, and we can see it because of all the transactions and then we can see all the stuff that’s basically flowing out of their account, the exercise is basically to show if we have $10,000 flowing into our account, we essentially should have $10,000 flowing out. And that’s what’s called a 0-based budget. So every dollar has a job. And part of that $10,000 flowing out is hopefully savings. So if we determine after we go line-by-line through every part of their budget that, hey, the expenses actually add up to $9,000, then that tells me that we have $1,000 either to maybe put towards their loans, maybe if they have credit card debt, that would probably be the first thing we do. Maybe it’s to plus up their emergency fund or just savings in general. So we talk about sinking funds, and that’s kind of for those non-monthly expenses that pop up like home maintenance or car maintenance or things like that that aren’t necessarily an emergency, but they happen. So that’s essentially what that looks like. And I think, you know, and we talk about this in our student loan course. In module 1, Tim Ulbrich goes through this. I think having that disposable income number, knowing your number is so powerful because it really can dictate, you know, exactly where to go and how to fund your financial plan. I really encourage to do this, and you can use a napkin, you can use Excel, you can use something like Mint or YNAB or envelopes, that’s what Tim Ulbrich used when he paid off his debt. So I think if you have that number, you can very purposely apply what that disposable income is towards your goals.
And secondarily, you know, in talking, you might be a resident out there, and believe me, in the student loan course, we ran what a typical resident makes, and honestly, there’s not much left over. So I think when we looked at that — now, you’ll get a reprieve if you do look at an income-driven plan, obviously. And that’s one of the things to be aware of too. So if you’re a resident, there’s not a whole lot to work with, so I think the name of the game in that is really to kind of hold on and not incur additional credit card debt and really come out when you transition to that six-figure income ready to go. But the next part — and I’ll speak to residents on this part too — is really have a plan for your debt.
So the first one I would definitely look at is the credit card debt. And I’m finding more and more new practitioners, when I speak to them, have said that they’re leaving school or they’re taking on credit card debt during school. And that’s one thing that even before we get serious with the student loans, the credit card debt gots to go. Secondarily, having a plan for your student debt, obviously is super important. Properly inventorying your loans, whether your federal loans or private loans, and then really selecting the appropriate strategy and repayment plan. So the two broad strokes in terms of strategy are the forgiveness option and the non-forgiveness option. And you know, basically the forgiveness option can be broken down by the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program, which obviously can be very controversial. But you can also be forgiven — a lot of people don’t know this — outside of that program. And they’re a little bit different of programs, but if you are a resident and you think that you’re working for the nonprofit or a government entity, starting the clock on that PSLF, that 10-year program, should happen for jump street, should happen immediately. And that’s one of the things that we discuss in the student loan course is how to really optimize that if you are in that situation. We have a lesson just for that. But if you’re in a non-forgiveness strategy, so you look at the forgiveness strategy and you say, thanks government, thanks, but no thanks, I think I’m going to do it on my own. And really this is probably more of a proactive. The problem with the forgiveness programs is they are more of a reactive. You’re kind of hoping and crossing your fingers that the programs will be around. And I think that they will be around in terms of at least being grandfathered in, that’s Tim Baker’s opinion based on some of the things that I’ve seen come out recently. And we probably can do a whole different episode on that. So if you listen to the podcast, and you’re part of our Facebook group, if that’s something that you want us to talk about, the PSLF program, the state of that, I can kind of give some thoughts and we can probably do an episode just around that. But if you’re in a forgiveness strategy, it’s more reactive, and you’re hoping, OK, government. Please follow through on the things that you said that you do. And if you’re in the non-forgiveness strategy, it’s more, OK, taking the bull by the horns, being more proactive and not necessarily be where you’re paying off $8,000-10,000 per month like we’ve seen some of our debt-free pharmacists do, but there’s a spectrum that you can fit in depending on what your disposable income number is and whether that is staying in the standard repayment plan or looking at one of our partners that does the private refinancing. There’s a lot of different ways to kind of, to look at it, and you know, you just want to make sure that you have a purpose. So I often see a lot of pharmacists, they say, ‘You know, when I got through pharmacy school, you know, I knew I couldn’t make the standard repayment plan, so I decided to go into IBR or ICR,’ and that’s one of the income-driven plans that’s out there and maybe not necessarily one of the best ones. But there’s really no intent behind it. And you know, I think oftentimes, what I see is people that are, borrowers that are kind of in between. And I think what we espouse in our course is that you need to really be either pursuing a forgiveness option or pursuing a non-forgiveness option and really fly one of those two flags. If you’re kind of in the middle, you’re in no mans land or no persons land, to be politically correct. So if you are a new graduate, and you’re hearing me talk about loans, and you’re looking for some clarity, like I mentioned, the student loan course for pharmacists is out, and it’s ready for you to sign up, so visit courses.yourfinancialpharmacist.com to enroll. And really, it’s a three-module course, each module taught by a different Tim. So Module 1, we start you off with getting organized, so doing a proper inventory of your loans, walking you through loan basics, the total cost of loans, budgeting. I teach Module 2, which is determine your payoff strategies. I walk you through exactly the two main strategies and where you potentially fit. I throw in some case studies, and also, there’s one lesson that is targeted just for residents. And then finally, Tim Church wraps it up with Module 3, which is optimizing your payoff strategy. So the course is chocked full of goodies and resources and really, when you are done taking the course, you should walk away with clarity and confidence about how to tackle your loans. So again, go to courses.yourfinancialpharmacist.com to enroll.
The next thing to really discuss is having an emergency fund. So the textbooks say — the emergency fund is basically liquid assets, we’re talking cash money, that is set aside for those unexpected, I can’t believe that actually happened and I need to spend money, events. And what the textbook says is that you need to have 3-6 months of those nondiscretionary or essential expenses. So if you’ve done your budget, thank you very much for doing your budget, but you should know that number. So as an example, if your loan payment is $1,500, and your rent is $1,000, and you are single, what that means is that you should have six months, — because if you’re single, you should have six months. If you are a dual income household, you should have three months, and there’s shades of gray in between. But if you were single and your rent and your loan payment combined are $2,500, multiple that by 6. Congrats, you need $15,000 to cover that. And that’s not even — that’s just covering that — that’s not even the groceries, the utilities, all those things. But you can see how much potentially you need for an emergency fund. So I guess what I want to say here and what I often say to clients is this is what the textbook says. But if you are looking at aggressively paying off loans or depending on where you’re at on the spectrum, you don’t have to basically build Rome in a day. Work towards $5,000. $5,000 will probably cover 75% of emergencies out there, maybe. Work towards $10,000. $10,000 will probably cover 90% of emergencies, maybe. So I think — so this is kind of what I have when I build plans out is have conversations, ask good questions of the clients, of my clients. And then basically say, OK, let’s phase this in. So Phase 1, by the time we get to this level of emergency fund, then we’ll work more aggressively toward this other goal and the next level. So don’t get discouraged, but having a properly funded emergency fund is super important to this whole thing, this whole financial picture.
The next thing that I want to mention that is attributed to a lot of the lifestyle creep that I see, not just with young pharmacists but also young professionals in general — so really what I’m talking about here are car purchases and home purchases. Now, Tim Ulbrich did an excellent job going through car buying in Episode 047, so if you haven’t listened to that, take a listen. So I won’t spend too much time on car buying. But you know, I would just say, and what I say often to young professionals and sometimes have to say this to myself is, you know, once you go in high-end Beamer, Lexus, Audi, it’s really hard to go back. So I’m not trying to dampen the spirit here, but you don’t have to have your dream car — and frankly, you don’t have to have your dream home — right off the bat, especially if you’re staring at $160,000, $250,000, whatever that is, that student debt picture. So because — and I know from experience working with some clients, they go out and they make that purchase, and those cars, they just depreciate so fast. So even if they want to get out of it, you know, they’re underwater, and now they’re stuck with an $800 car payment, and that’s no bueno. So really think long and hard before that happens. What “The Millionaire Next Door” says is that most people that achieve that $1 million net worth, they’re thinking that some other sucker, maybe — can we say sucker? — some other sucker is going to buy a car new, take that depreciation, and then the millionaire is going to come in three, four, five years later and buy that car when most of the depreciation has come off. So just a think to kind of marinate on.
You know, the other thing in terms of major purchases is the house purchase, the home purchase. And same thing with the car, you don’t have to buy your dream home right away. If you are faced with a massive amount of student debt, essentially, you’re broke. So to add another $300,000, $400,000, $500,000, that’s a lot of debt. So we’re a big believer in having as much money that you can bring to the table with regard to a home purchase. PMI, Private Mortgage Insurance, it doesn’t put any equity into your house. It just basically evaporates money from your balance sheet. You know, I think obviously, a very small percentage of people can come to the table — I think it’s like 10% come to the table with that 20% down payment. I would listen back to when we had Nate Hedrick on Episode 040 and 041 where we talk about home buying, that it’s important cash is king with this, it’s important to come to the table and really think about that. And I think if you can set the target of 20%, it really will force down your purchase price. So obviously, if you are looking at a $300,000 house — and I know those students out at USC are laughing at me right now — but if you’re looking at a purchase price of $300,00, that essentially means that you need to save $60,000. So maybe that $300,000 purchase becomes a $250,000 purchase. The point is is that what often happens is when you look at the decision to buy a house, I think sometimes we as a de facto because we’re told that the American dream is to purchase a home and build equity, that it’s almost like our birthright. And it really isn’t. It really isn’t. I think it’s something that should be done responsibly. And one of the tools that we talked about in our recent talk is that, you know, a $1,500 rent payment does not equal to a $1,500 mortgage payment because you need to factor in things like taxes and fees and closing costs and all that stuff, the maintenance of the home. And the New York Times has a great calculator that we’ll link in the show notes that basically looks at all those variables and basically tells you, you know, if we look at the purchase price, the interest rate, how long you plan to stay in the house, taxes, all that stuff, that there’s a break-even point that basically, the calculator will show it makes sense to buy or it makes sense to rent. So the word of caution here is not Debby Downer, but it’s just to think of that purchase not necessarily as an investment, because it’s really not. I think a home that you live in shouldn’t really be thought of as an investment. And again, once you sign those papers and you’re on the hook for a $2,000, $2,500, $3,000 mortgage payment, you really limit yourself in terms of flexibility with other parts of your financial plan.
So another thing to keep in mind is investment. So if your employer provides a match, absolutely should be matching that and getting the full match. Oftentimes though, what happens is I see people start a new job, they are delayed because they have to be at a job for a certain amount of time, maybe it’s six or 12 months, and then all of a sudden they’re like, well, I really like this paycheck, maybe I won’t put money into my 401k. And during that time when you’re not eligible for that 401k, you have that lifestyle creep. You buy the house or the car, and it doesn’t make sense for you. You’re basically, you’re capped out, and it’s hard for you to defer money into that 401k. So that’s something to be mindful during that period before you become eligible. And I would say, bank it in a savings account just like you were deferring it into a 401k.
The other thing to be mindful of is really what’s called 401k inertia. So if you’re employer matches 3%, you know, absolutely you should try to match 3% without question. What often happens is that it anchors the person to that 3%, whereas in reality what I tell clients, it’s kind of a race to 10%. You want to be — when we do those nest egg calculations, you need to be deferring some money away, stocking some money away for that 30-year-older self. So don’t get anchored down by that 401k match, whether it’s 3%, 5%, 6%, and just be mindful of that. And a lot of 401k’s now, you can basically build in like a percent increase every year, and I would totally tell you to do that. Just schedule it, 1, 2%, start that as soon as possible.
So the last part I want to mention is insurance. So the message here is beware, but be covered. So the two that I want to really discuss here is life insurance and disability insurance. And we’ve talked about life insurance in Episode 044 and disability insurance in Episode 045, and you know, I think that these are a crucial part of the financial plan. And really, we talk a lot about accumulation and growth of your assets and of your net worth. This is really the protection of that. And I think that is equally important.
So a few points about life insurance. If you are a new graduate, and perhaps you’re single, you don’t have a family, you don’t own a house, you probably don’t need insurance or you probably don’t need that much insurance. Pharmacists are often targeted, particularly with life insurance, because of the incomes that pharmacists make. And on numerous occasions, when I work with pharmacists, sometimes I have to unwind some of the policies that are sold them. And what I mean by that is you know, at YFP, we believe that term — if you do buy insurance, term life insurance is the best way to go. It’s pure insurance, which basically means that there’s no savings or investment component. It covers you for a period of time. So it could be 20, 25 or 30 years. And if you don’t die during that time, which hopefully you don’t, basically at the end of that term, it expires. It’s essentially done its job. Whole life or what’s called permanent insurance or variable life or universal insurance, there’s different types of permanent insurance out there, essentially, it is part insurance and part savings or investment. And typically, these types of insurance policies are five, six, seven times more expensive than a term policy. And I think that they are often, you know, they’re better for the person or the salesperson that is selling it than it is for the person, the pharmacist in this case, that is buying it. Life insurance I think is crucial. And just to kind of give you a sense of what a policy costs, you know, general rule of thumb — and I think we talk about this in Episode 044 — is 10-12 times income is essentially probably what you need. Say you make $100,000, you need basically $1 million to $1.2 million. So a healthy 30-year-old, so just to kind of give you a sense, so think 30/30/30. So a healthy 30-year-old who purchases a term life insurance policy for 30 years, basically will pay between $30-35 for that policy. So you know, double that, between $60-70 will probably cover you. And the sooner that you get it, obviously, so maybe you don’t have kids, but you want coverage. The sooner you get it, every year that goes by, those premiums go up about 8-10%. So you know, obviously, life insurance is crucial.
Disability insurance probably even more so, especially for you new grads out there. As we mentioned, $9 million over the course of your career, that’s what you’re going to make. You spend lots of time, lots of blood, sweat and tears to get your PharmD, to get licensed, to get going. You’re going to want to protect that. Having a policy to cover you — and we talk about this in Episode 045, and I encourage you to listen if you haven’t listened to that — is important. And to kind of give you an idea, if you were to buy a long-term disability policy on your own to cover 60% of your income, which is kind of best practice, you’re going to spend probably about $120-150 per month to get coverage. Now, some of you are going to be covered by your employer. So we often say that you should get a supplemental insurance policy to basically cover the gap because most employers won’t cover a full 60%, so you should get a full policy that covers that gap with the ability, what’s called a rider, to buy up in case you were to go to a job that doesn’t have that full disability policy. And the same thing with life insurance. Some of you are going to have life insurance through your employer, and it might be one or two times income, and you really don’t even have to do anything to opt into that, it’s just automatic. But oftentimes, it’s going to be far below what you actually need to be fully covered. And it’s also good to have a portable life insurance policy that basically doesn’t matter where you’re working to have that coverage.
You know, we covered a lot of ground here. And you know, and again, you know, the timing here is crucial. What you’ll do here in the next one, two, three years will really set the tone for your financial life and the outlook going forward. So you know, be on your best behavior. Think about what your goals are. Have a budget in mind. Make sure you have some type of emergency fund in place. Have a plan for your debt, whether it’s the credit cards or the student loan debt. You know, be mindful of how much you’re spending on those major purchases. Cash is king. Get into the investment game, whether that’s just taking the match on your 401k to start, that’s good. And cover yourself, but beware. So you know, life insurance policies and disability policies are important.
So you know, the Tim Baker challenge, you know, what are you going to do? What is your plan? If you’ve listened to this episode, and you’ve written down 3-5 of your goals that you’re going to achieve in the next five years, tag me on our Facebook group, call me out and say, ‘Hey, Tim. This is the plan.’ And you don’t have to be a new grad or a pharmacist. I encourage you if you haven’t done this yourself, put it out there. I will respond, and we can have a conversation about that. But I’m so happy that you guys joined me this podcast. It was a blast doing it by myself and looking forward to next time.
In celebration of the 50th episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, we have a special Debt Free Theme Hour for you where we interview Jill & Sylvain Paslier about their journey paying off $197,000 of student loan debt in 28 months. They share how they practically accomplished this goal, their strategy for working together to knock out this debt and what is next up for their financial future now that they are debt free!
About Our Guests
Jill Paslier graduated with a Doctorate of Pharmacy from the University of Minnesota College of Pharmacy in 2014. During the past two years, Jill has been involved in developing workflows and clinical services for a brand new specialty pharmacy with Banner Health. Her professional interests include working on projects to improve patient safety, optimize pharmacy workflows, and improve pharmacy quality. She leads the pharmacy Quality Council and precepts pharmacy students and residents.
Sylvain Paslier works as an Enterprise Customer Success Manager at Reputation.com.
Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Welcome to Episode 050 of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. We have a special treat for you in this episode as we celebrate making it to 50 episodes of this podcast. So as we approach 50,000 downloads of the podcast, and as we celebrate the 50th episode, on behalf of Tim Church and Tim Baker, from YFP, I want to say thank you for your support. It’s the encouraging discussion in the YFP Facebook group, the emails and support that we receive from you, the listeners, about the positive impact this podcast is having with regards to your own finances that keeps us excited about getting you a new episode each and every week. As we approach this mark of 50 episodes and 50,000 downloads of the show, I want to use this as a chance to ask you to help us share the good news with your friends and colleagues and to leave a review in iTunes or whatever podcast player you use, that will help more people learn about the show. And finally, if you have a story to share, a question we can answer or a topic you think we should address on a future show, shoot us a message inside the Your Financial Pharmacist Facebook group or by email at [email protected]. OK, let’s get started with today’s debt-free story.
Tim Ulbrich: Jilly and Sylvain, welcome to the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. So glad to have you on the show.
Jill Paslier: Hi. Happy to be here.
Sylvain Paslier: Thanks for having us.
Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. So Jill, why don’t we start with — I had a chance to get to know you a little bit, actually recently. I was in Tucson, Arizona at the University of Arizona doing a financial talk and got to hear a little more about your financial story. And as the listeners are going to hear just like I did, really an incredible story of what you and Sylvain have done and done together as a team. So why don’t we start with just giving us a little bit of background about where you graduated from pharmacy school, where you and Sylvain met, how long you’ve been married, and I think that will be a good kickoff to the episode.
Jill Paslier: Sure. So I am a 2014 of the University of Minnesota College of Pharmacy. Sylvain and I actually met in 2008 when I was in my senior year of undergrad. I did a study abroad in France, and we met in France at the church there. And we kind of just kept in touch long-distance for a couple of years, started dating in 2010 and then get married in 2012, so right in the middle of my schooling. And then so from Minnesota, we moved out to Arizona for my first job out of school.
Tim Ulbrich: I think that was probably a good choice going from the weather of Minnesota to the weather of Arizona, so that’s a big plus. And Sylvain, tell us a little bit about the work that you do. And I’m also curious, just as a follow-up to that, knowing that you grew up as a French national, tell us a little bit about student loan debt and how that’s different and obviously, from what I understand, you voluntarily opted into marrying Jill with all this student loan debt, right?
Sylvain Paslier: Yes, that’s correct. When I said, “I do,” I said, “I do to the student loans as well.” Yeah, so, you know, in France, higher education is subsidized, so I was privileged to pursue an education for free, essentially. You know, paid back in taxes. And so obviously, that was pretty different moving over to the U.S. and realizing that most of my peers had a lot of financial baggage. So I’m very fortunate that I did not have that. And so it was quite an adjustment to get into that, understanding how to pay it back, obviously. And to your question, I currently work for a tech company. I do account management. It’s one of these dotcom companies, headquartered in Silicon Valley, but they have an office in Tempe here.
Tim Ulbrich: So Jill, take us back all the way to 2014. You graduate from pharmacy school, you get your PharmD, you look up, you’ve got over $180,000 in student loan debt. And obviously, that number would accrue some additional interest. I mean, at that moment, take us through what you were thinking and how that debt load impacted you and obviously secondarily, Sylvain, when you were a new graduate.
Jill Paslier: So I didn’t really keep track of my student loans while I was a student. I did a private undergrad. I took an extra year in the middle where I kind of worked and did some prereqs for pharmacy school and then, of course, the four-year PharmD. So I knew that I was taking out a lot of loans because a lot of times I would max it out. Almost my entire education was financed. So I knew it was going to be a lot, but I really had no idea what that number was until I graduated. So that summer, I got the paper that says how much it is. It was $187,000 right out the door from pharmacy school. So I just thought that was like a huge number. At first, I was really optimistic, you know, we’re getting a good salary, and we’re going to be able to pay it off really fast. But it was a lot harder than I expected.
Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And I’m glad you brought that up because you mentioned kind of the lack of keeping track and awareness of it. We’ve talked a lot on this podcast about, you know, step No. 1 for students and new practitioners, residents, whomever, is really just inventorying your student loans and knowing what you have before you can obviously start to put a plan together to attack them. So Sylvain, talk to us a little bit about the journey of when that moment hit you guys of saying like, wow, we’ve got to pay this off. And obviously, as I alluded to in the introduction, you did it relatively — not relatively, you did it really quickly, I mean two years and four months — but what was that moment where you guys said together, wow, there’s got to be a different way of doing this. And then a little bit about just practically, what did that look like in terms of adjusting other expenses to attack those loans?
Sylvain Paslier: Yeah, absolutely. So at first, it was very overwhelming to realize the amount of student loans. But at the same time, it was almost numbing. And there is such a normalization of student loans that we didn’t feel any pressure to attack it very quickly. So it’s only through a series of events that made us aware of the issue and of the opportunity in our lives that would emerge from paying it off quickly that we took action. And some of these steps were becoming educated around personal finance and then modifying our lifestyle to increase our income and reduce our outgo lifestyle choices. So it’s really been kind of this series of events that — basically all that to say, we didn’t get it all at once. It was a number of little things that got us to the point where we realized we needed to work at it very hard.
Tim Ulbrich: And is it fair to see — Sylvain, were you guys kind of both on the same page from day one of we’ve got to attack this? Or was one of you taking the lead and then the other person caught up over time?
Sylvain Paslier: So we were in it together. You know, as soon as we got married, we combined our finances and you know, this is what we think — what we thought and what we still think is the best for our marriage. So you know, when Jill and I got married, Jill had two more years of pharmacy school to go through. And so I was the breadwinner of our household. And you know, there’s times when maybe one of us is not going to be able to work as much, and it just — basically, we need to be a team in good times and in the bad times, and so there was no doubt that Jill’s debt had become my debt, as much as I didn’t like that, and that we were going to tackle it as a team. Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I love that, and I’m thinking even back to previous podcast episodes we’ve had, Adam Patterson is coming to mind from Episode 031, Allen and Ethan Coe (?) is coming to mind as well. And I think both of those podcasts really resonated this idea and power of team and how important it is to say, this is our debt. This is our issue that we’re going to tackle. And I don’t know how you guys feel, but once you get through that, the thing that my wife and I felt is, you know, when you’re going through that process of paying down student loans and in some regard, almost grinding it out together, when you get on the other side of that, you’re like, wow, we did that as a team. Like we accomplished that, and now what’s next? You know, what other goals are we after? What are we trying to achieve? So Jill, I’m doing just some quick back-of-napkin math, and the numbers are really unbelievable. I mean, you think about that debt load, you mentioned graduating 2014, $187,000, obviously that would go up a little bit with interest, you pay that off in two year and four months, that’s a lot of money per month that you guys are throwing at these loans. Can you share a little bit about just what that looked like each and every month and how you practically carve that money out? I mean, was that side hustling, earning extra income, working extra shifts? Was that cutting expenses and budgeting? Or was it a little bit of both?
Jill Paslier: So it’s a little bit of both. So we both kind of worked two jobs for about two years. So we didn’t really dive right in for the first couple of months after I graduated. I only started working in October, so there was a few months where, you know, we only had one income and we were putting tiny bits of money towards the debt, but we really started in October after I graduated. Shortly after, I got kind of a second job code with my company so that I could work nights and weekends on additional projects, I guess. And then Sylvain was also working two jobs. So I think we were both really motivated to work extra, try to get our income up. Another way that we were able to get our take-home pay up so that we could put it towards the debt is that we actually minimized anything coming out of our paycheck. So for example, retirement, we did not contribute to retirement for the first year since we weren’t getting the match. The second year, as soon as we were eligible for the match, we only put in that 3-4% for the match, nothing else. And then for health insurance, we are choosing like the HSA plan so that we have the lowest monthly premiums. And I think those things altogether really help to increase our take-home pay, which is what we could use to pay off that debt. I can also talk about like some decreased expenses, like what did we do there. So when I graduated, you know, we see our friends on Facebook, and we see them buying new cars, maybe getting a house, you know, going up in lifestyle right away. It was tempting to do that, and I would still like a bigger kitchen to this day because we’re just in the apartment that we started off in. So we’re still in a very modest apartment, it’s the same rent as what we were paying when I was a student, for the most part. We haven’t moved up in our cars; we have the same cars we were driving as students. We limited kind of other expenses, things that we like to do like eating out and traveling. We really reigned those in, and we said no sometimes, even when we wanted to. So those are kind of the ways we were able to decrease our expenses. One other thing I’ll just mention quickly is that we got really into an idea called minimalism, which basically means that you’re living with minimal items, I guess the amount of items and things that you need, but not excessive. So I think that that helped us to stop shopping as much because we realized that we were giving it all away to Goodwill a couple months later anyways. So that definitely decreased our expenses, just like we didn’t want to buy things anymore because we knew, you know, we probably wouldn’t use it in the future, and we were much more selective on that too.
Tim Ulbrich: So much wisdom there. I mean, I love the practicality of what you guys did, and I think one of the pieces so many people struggle with is, you know, they hear all those decisions about you know, giving up on potentially some of the house things or the car things or vacations or eating out or whatever. And I think a key piece there is that, you know, those can be, but they’re not necessarily forever decisions, right? So you’re a 2014 grad, you know, you’re approaching that four-year anniversary from graduation, now you’re in a position of debt-free from your student loans and obviously the doors are wide open in terms of what you guys can do. And I’d be curious to hear your opinion — I know one of the things Jess and I felt, my wife and I, as we went through our journey is that you get to the end of this journey of paying off all of your student loan debt, and you start to realize that over those years, you build these disciplines and these behaviors that carry on obviously beyond that repayment period. So how are you guys practically — for lack of a better phrase, like toning it down, you know, now that you have all this debt repaid? Or have you just said, we’re going to shift this money we were paying towards student loans and we’re going to now put it towards other priorities such as retirement, giving, home buying? How have you made that adjustment to that post-debt life?
Sylvain: Yeah, so the irony, first, is that the day that you pay off your debt, sure you jump up and down and you’re so excited, but the reality is after all, not much has changed. And so you’ve essentially practiced over a number of years, discipline and contentment, and I think those are huge investments in our personal character. And so really, one key is to realize that although yes, paying off debt is a really big deal, once you do pay it off, you know, you’re still waking up and going to work and trying to find meaning in your life. And so that meaning was found solely in consumption and keeping up with the Joneses, then achieving that threshold is not going to be fulfilling.
Tim Ulbrich: Before we continue with the rest of today’s episode, here’s a quick message from our sponsor.
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Tim Ulbrich: Now back to today’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast.
Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And I think it’s — I mean, as you guys are now on the back end of that — and I couldn’t agree more on the focus of consumption, and actually it’s — Jill, I think you used the term “minimalism,” and we’re actually right now in a small group studying the discipline of simplicity. And I think same kind of idea there. And there’s so much power, I think, and value in that, but there’s also, you know, I think a balance point where you can enjoy some of that. And are there specific things, Jill, that you guys are now looking at and saying, OK, we’ve done this, we’re maybe toning down the two jobs each or we’re now shifting this towards retirement or giving or vacations? Or are you still in that period where it’s like, oo, it’s hard to tone this down, we’re so used to this mentality of grinding it out and paying off the loans?
Jill Paslier: So we’re no longer working two jobs each. We’re just doing the one. That was easy enough. As far as actually spending money, we still do not spend a lot of money. It’s funny because before, when we had the debt, we would say, OK, what are we going to do when we have an extra $6,000-8,000 a month? You know, what are we going to do with this money? Because that’s how much we were putting towards our debt sometimes. And you know, I kind of joke at this, but Sylvain said he wanted some fancy muffins, like from the nice grocery store. Like it’s just simple things, you know? And like, we’re not looking to buy extravagant, expensive things. So I think we’re finding some excitement in those little expenses, maybe eating out a little more, you know, we still travel a lot, and we do have an international travel to Europe usually at least once a year to visit with Sylvain’s family, so that’s where some of our money goes. Our other main goals now, we fully funded an emergency fund, so we have a good six months of emergency fund buffer in case anything happens. And then we’re really focusing right now on saving for retirement. So I told you we kind of postponed that a little bit while we were paying off the debt, and of course I wasn’t saving while I was a student, so we feel a little bit behind. So actually for the last year, we’ve been putting about 25-50% of our gross income into retirement because we weren’t using that money anyways. So it’s easy enough to just shift it from the debt now to retirement, and then we can actually see the money growing in our account, which is actually pretty nice. We thought about having more of that money funneled towards like a down payment on a home, but we don’t necessarily want to buy a house right now. So we figured the best place to put it is retirement, some of those tax-favored accounts, just let it grow there. And then when we’re ready, we can save up a down payment I think pretty quick once we re-funnel the income a little bit. Tim Ulbrich: And just to clarify, I think what I heard you say earlier is that when you were in the beginnings of employment, that first year while they did not offer a match, you temporarily suspended any savings toward retirement. But then when the match was offered, you took that match, but nothing beyond the match. And now, you guys are obviously going at it aggressively. Is that correct?
Jill Paslier: Yep, exactly.
Tim Ulbrich: OK. So Sylvain, tell me, probably one of the most common questions we get through the podcast and the blog and the Facebook group is, should I be paying off my debt? Should I be investing? Should I be doing home buying? Should I be doing all of them? And obviously, you guys strategically made a decision that, we’re going all in on our loans with the exception of that retirement match. And obviously you’re also carved out and said, we’re going to wait on the home buying piece. So for the two of you, what was it philosophically that you guys said, you know what, we’re going to get rid of this debt. Was it your beliefs around debt? Was it the amount of it? The weight of it? The interest rates around it? I mean, what was the decision point for you guys to really attack that portion solely.
Sylvain Paslier: Yeah, absolutely. So basically, we discovered another resource, which I don’t know if I’m allowed to mention on the podcast, but Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University, which was instrumental for us to get started and have a methodology to basically start that journey. And so that was the, again, the game plan to start budgeting and then attacking the debt in the specific order. So that was the methodology that we used.
Jill Paslier: And I’ll share — I can add something to that. So kind of our mentality around the debt, we were paying — our minimum was about $1,100 a month. And $1,000 was going towards interest, and $100 was going towards the principal. So as soon as I really saw those numbers, I got so angry, and I said, those banks are taking all of our money, $1,000 every single month. And we just got really kind of fed up with like shelling out that $1,000, and we’re like, we’re going to be in debt, they’re going to get so much money that we have to pay in interest. And I think we just got really motivated and fired up and started to hate the debt. So I think that really helped with our kind of motivation. Like every single month, if we could pay an extra $1,000 or more towards the principal, we knew that was going to be saved from making an interest payment later.
Tim Ulbrich: And Jill, I recall when you and I met, I think I remember you saying something about you were originally on the pathway of 8- or 10-year payoff, and obviously that happened a lot faster. So was that moment where you kind of said, wow, yes, we could make this $1,100 payment, but we’re going to go much more above that? I mean, was that sort of the catalyst, the defining moment that allowed you to start accelerating that payoff?
Jill Paslier: Kind of. I would say budgeting was even more useful in that because we were already kind of fired up. And I remember we were paying $1,100, and I was like, what if we could pay an extra $1,000 per month? Oh my gosh, we’re paying $2,000, this is so great, we’re doing such a good job. And we laid it out, and we’re like, oh, we’re going to be done paying this in eight years. That will be so good. And once we really got ahold of our budget and seeing where the money was going and like actually choosing where it went and getting our incomes up and our expenses down, we saw that we had a lot more than just $2,000 a month to put towards the loans. So I think once we really got control of that, you know, we were able to put up to $6,000 and sometimes $8,000 a month towards the student loans.
Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. So since you brought up budgeting, let’s talk budgeting for a minute because I think — and the listeners know I’m a firm believer of that being the catalyst for a financial plan, and obviously for two people working together, a budget can often be the most difficult thing. So Sylvain, let’s talk for a minute about budgeting in the Paslier household. So what does this practically look like for you guys? I mean, is this something month-by-month, you’re sitting down? Is one of you taking the lead? If you could give listeners kind of a behind-the-scenes look of how you two go through the budgeting process and how you come to consensus and maybe even the tools, if any, that you use for budgeting.
Sylvain Paslier: Yeah, absolutely. So first, it was helpful to understand some guidelines around what percentage of your income should go towards rent, towards food, towards clothing, entertainment, etc. So we found some of these resources online, and then we tracked our expenses and realized that they weren’t aligned with these “best practices” of budgeting. And so we slowly — you know, it took a few months, but we slowly realigned our budget with what our goals were in order to have extra in our budget to allocate to debt or whichever other maybe short-term goal was happening. Practically speaking, Jill is very good at, she’s very analytical, she’s good at mathematics, and she loves spending time in Excel. And so she’s taking the lead on kind of drafting that monthly budget, and then we review it together. And so that’s kind of what that looks like. Typically, I mean, ideally, we should do that before the first day of the month. You know, sometimes we’re a few days late, sometimes we’re a few days early. The big idea is that we’re trying to be intentional towards the beginning of the month to set it in month for the rest of the month.
Tim Ulbrich: And I’m guessing Jill is a FPU, Financial Peace Univeristy, fan and my understanding — I think that you’re teaching a course as well. I’m assuming that you guys are using more of a zero-based budgeting process. Is that fair?
Jill Paslier: Yep, that’s what we do.
Sylvain Paslier: Correct. Tim Ulbrich: OK. And do you keep it all in Excel? Or do you then translate it into a tool like Mint or Everydollar or something like that?
Jill Paslier: So we usually do actually more like a paper budget first, just so we can see the numbers and we can edit them together. And you know, the main categories are housing, food, transportation, I guess we don’t have — we usually don’t have a lot of healthcare or shopping categories. Now we have pocket money, which we didn’t really have when we were trying to get out of debt. Those are the main categories, and we put — basically, we write it out on paper and then we put it into Mint so that we can track our progress throughout the month. The categories pretty much line up, so we can see what our goals are and how close we are, you know, if we’re halfway through the month and we’ve spent half of our food budget, then we know we’re on track. You know, if we’ve spent more or less, we know how to adjust. So yeah, we use Mint. I think when we were paying off the debt, I probably looked at Mint like every other day. Like all the time because I wanted to see, is there any way we can spend less in a certain category or free up some money to pay off the debt so I think we’re a little bit more relaxed now but still on track to meet some of our longer term goals.
Tim Ulbrich: And when you say and use the term pocket money, are you referring to the concept of kind of discretionary spending money that each of you have that doesn’t necessarily have to have a specific money? So my wife and I call it blow money. Is that kind of the same idea?
Jill Paslier: Yep. Same thing. Sylvain and I get a little bit every month. Like we’re such savers at this point that we barely even spend it, really. So it just rolls over to the next month. That’s what we do.
Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. So Jill, let me ask you a question. I mean, if you could kind of put yourself in the shoes of a 2018 graduate coming out, you know, what advice would you have for either current students or new graduates this year or coming out or recently came out? What are a couple things that you’d recommend to them and those that are listening that are coming out with a debt load that maybe looks very much like yours?
Jill Paslier: I think I would just want to encourage them that it’s possible to pay it off. I mean, it’s a huge amount of debt, you know, if you’re up there around $150,000 or $200,000. But we’ve been there, and other people have been there, and it is possible to pay it off. And I would just recommend, you know, learning how to do a budget, really see where your money’s going, kind of maximize your income if you can. You know, if you’re married, work together with your spouse. If you have a roommate, hopefully that helps a little bit on the housing cost so if you can bring any of your kind of living expenses down, you’ll have more money to pay towards the student loans and really pay those off faster.
Tim Ulbrich: That’s great advice. And I find your story incredibly inspirational. I’m sure other listeners are going to as well. And you know, one thing to hit maybe as I’m just kind of thinking here of what we’ve talked about is Sylvain, you used terms I think earlier around — you said something like it felt numbing, and it felt overwhelming. And what I love about your story is I feel like your hustle, both of you working two jobs for two years, I can tell there was obviously a commitment to learn about this topic, whether it’s podcasts, books, Financial Peace University, whatever, and a commitment to do this together. And I think there’s so much wisdom there, and I appreciate you both taking the time to come on the show and share your story. So Jill and Sylvain, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, I appreciate it.
Jill Paslier: Yeah, thanks a lot. It was fun. Sylvain Paslier: Thanks for having us, Tim.