Podcast

YFP 259: Building a Medical Writing Business with Megan Freeland

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Building a Medical Writing Business with Megan Freeland

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Megan Freeland, PharmD, talks about talk about her career path in medical writing, the types of health content writing that might interest pharmacists, and how she created the Health Professionals to Health Writers program.

About Today’s Guest

For the longest, Megan’s ultimate career goal was to become a public health pharmacist working for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. She accomplished that goal on multiple occasions — supporting divisions related to medication safety, health communications, and emergency preparedness and response — but realized she was missing the opportunity to apply a creative flair to her writing career.

Megan set out on her own to build a health content marketing company. Through StockRose Creative, LLC, Megan supports innovative health organizations, helping them use the power of words to reach their target customers and clients and turn them into raving fans. She uses a strategic approach to develop culturally-relevant content for digital health companies and health information websites. At the same time, Megan runs the Health Professionals to Health Writers program, which helps pharmacists and other health care providers learn how to replace a portion of their income through freelance health content writing.

Earlier this year, Megan also began lending her talents to an in-house communications team for the nation’s leading provider of sexual and reproductive health care and education.

When she’s not writing, reading about writing, or teaching others how to write, she’s binging podcasts and new music, scoping out the latest Peloton apparel drops, and laughing hysterically with — or at — her two young children and husband.

Episode Summary

In this episode, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, is joined by Megan Freeland, a pharmacist, entrepreneur, and health content writing expert. Megan is the creator of StockRose Creative LLC, where she supports health organizations, helping them use the power of words to reach their target customers and clients. In this discussion, Megan shares how she unexpectedly found herself with a career path in medical writing after accomplishing her ultimate career goal of becoming a public health pharmacist working for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Megan explains the types of health content writing pharmacists may be interested in pursuing and why many individuals get started in health content writing. She also shares how she saw the opportunity to create the Health Professionals to Health Writers program, helping pharmacists and other health care providers learn how to replace a portion of their income through freelance health content writing. Throughout the episode, listeners will discover how Megan’s passion for public health has been pivotal in the decisions that brought her to her current position. From volunteer work in healthcare centers, fellowships at the CDC, and sitting on the SNPhA board to an unexpected pregnancy, opportunities with the FDA, and more, Megan educates the listener on the art of life management while pursuing your dreams.

Key Points From This Episode

Understanding Megan Freeland’s career by looking at her interests and background in pharmacy.
How to apply knowledge and experience in pharmacy to the public health system.
What opportunities Megan took to further explore public health training and experience.
The hard journey she took to end up at her dream job in the CDC.
Her passion and motivation for the intersection of public health and writing.
The influence Megan’s family and community had on her passion for public health care.
Understanding the types of medical writing and how to pursue one.
A guide to beginning your career as a freelance health content writer.
Megan’s ideas, goals, and motivations behind StockRose Creative.
A look into how Megan has grown her career on LinkedIn.
Advice for those starting to pursue their content writing careers.

Highlights

“All of the opportunities that I was taking part in to try to enhance my candidacy for being in a public health space, all of those roles and opportunities involved writing in some way.” — Megan Freeland, PharmD [0:04:33]

“People are thinking about their own experiences and their own limitations when they are thinking about what you are or are not capable of doing. Even though they have the best intentions, those ideas and those preconceived notions get projected onto you.” — Megan Freeland, PharmD [0:15:53]

“It wasn’t just my individual, nuclear, or immediate family’s health conditions that I was aware of, but we were all aware of everybody’s business. I saw how important it was for people to have good healthcare and good health information.” — Megan Freeland, PharmD [0:19:03]

“I think about the environment, information, and access to healthcare and good health information, how critical that is to the health of communities — as a black woman in the world, that level of awareness that comes with that lived experience as well.” — Megan Freeland, PharmD [0:19:37]

“You are not necessarily a reflection of the people who are trying to learn from you.” — Megan Freeland, PharmD [0:39:36]

“Your life is your own, no one else is responsible for what you do. No one else has to live with your decisions or your choices — know that you are deserving of having the professional trajectory, having the life, having the career, having the whatever that you decide you want.” — Megan Freeland, PharmD [0:42:37]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I had a chance to sit down with Megan Freeland, pharmacist, entrepreneur, and health content writing expert. Megan is the Founder of StockRose Creative, where she supports healthcare organizations, helping them use the power of words to reach their target customers and clients and turn them into raving fans.

A few of my highlights from the show include Megan talk about how she unexpectedly found herself in a career path in medical writing after accomplishing her ultimate career goal to become a public health pharmacist working for the CDC, the types of health content writing that pharmacist may be interested in, pursuing and the main reason that individuals get started in this field and how she saw an opportunity to create the health professionals to health writers program where she helps pharmacists and other healthcare providers learn how to replace a portion of their income through freelance health content writing.

Before we jump into the show, I recognized that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 household in 40 plus states. YFP planning offers fee-only, high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about working one-on-one with a certified financial planner that may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

Okay, let’s jump into my interview with Megan Freeland, Creator of StockRose Creative.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[0:01:42.8] TU: This week’s podcast episode is brought to you by Insuring Income. Insuring Income is your source for all things term life insurance and own occupation disability insurance. Insuring Income has a relationship with America’s top-rated term life insurance and disability insurance companies, so pharmacists like you can easily find the best solutions for your personal situation. To better serve you, Insuring Income reviews all applicable carriers in the marketplace for your desired coverage, supports clients in all 50 states, and makes sure all of your questions get answered.

To get quotes and apply for term life or disability insurance, see sample contract from disability carriers or learn more about these topics, visit insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist. Again, that’s insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:34.4] TU: Megan, welcome to the podcast.

[0:02:36.0] MF: Hello, Tim. I’m so excited to be here with you, thanks for having me.

[0:02:39.8] TU: I too am excited. We had a chance to connect several months ago and I’ve been excited to do this interview to share your story, your entrepreneurial journey with the YFP community. Let’s start off by hearing about your background, where did you go to pharmacy school, and what ultimately was some of your interest in going into pharmacy in the first place.

[0:02:57.6] MF: Great question and thank you for orienting me with this question, because whenever I get that background question, I’m like, “Where do we start?” I went to undergrad at Emory University and then I stayed in Atlanta for pharmacy school to attend Mercer University. When I went into pharmacy, I did not necessarily go into the field with the intention of practicing in the traditional sense.

When I was still in undergrad, I was trying to decide whether I wanted to pursue public health or whether I wanted to pursue pharmacy and I was encouraged by family members, my mom namely, to go into pharmacy because she was frankly disappointed that I decided that I did not want to go to medical school anymore and her thought was, “Well, at least, if you go to pharmacy school, you still come out with a doctorate degree.”

So I listened to mom and I chose to go to pharmacy school but I still had that public health bug in the back of my mind and so, my goal was to figure out, “Okay, how can I apply the experience, the knowledge that I gained through the pharmacy program to a public health setting?” How can I become essentially, a public health pharmacist when I leave?

Obviously, didn’t have a whole lot of guidance or examples to look to because at that time and even still now, there weren’t a whole lot of people who were kind of going down that public health path with the pharmacy background. So what was very much four year period of trial and error and kind of figuring out where I landed and how I could make that happen and what I noticed was that all of the opportunities that I was taking part in to try to enhance my candidacy for being in a public health space, all of those roles and opportunities involved writing in some way.

So, once I noticed that pattern, I decided, “Okay, well, this is kind of naturally the course that I’m going along, so I’ll just keep doing this and see where it takes me.”

[0:04:56.8] TU: It’s really interesting, Megan. I think it’s rare that someone goes into the pharmacy degree with a thought of a non-traditional career path these days. One example that I am passionate about is that my hope is that we can begin to see the PharmD education as being more of a gateway to many different opportunities and you know, not just one or two different pathways which folks may typically associate with.

So I think that’s really neat to hear that someone entered in with that non-traditional path and let me ask you a follow-up to that then, as you went into pharmacy school with a specific interest in public health, which isn’t a surprise, right? Emory University is known for their public health training, what specific opportunities did you look for in pharmacy school to further explore and build upon that interest?

Was there an organizations, was there specific internships, or rotations you’re able to get more experience, tell us more about how you’re able to foster that interest during pharmacy school?

[0:05:51.3] MF: Yeah, I love that question. And yes, that was not coincidental at all, actually, I’m originally from Columbia, South Carolina, and in the 9th grade, my magnet program, we took a field trip to Atlanta, and during that trip, we toured Emory and we also toured the CDC, which is right next door to Emory. So in the ninth grade, I decided, when I go to college, I’m going to Emory University and I’m going to work for the CDC.

So, it kind of was like a full circle situation but when I got to pharmacy school, I noticed that a lot of the extracurricular opportunities, the clubs, the programs, they were all pharmacy-related and so for me, I felt like, “Yes, I could do these things but will they really help me in the public health setting?” I’m going to have the degree, that takes care of my pharmacy qualifications.

I felt like anything that I was doing outside of going to class and taking tests needed to be more specific to public health in some way and so because of that, I was actually looking for opportunities outside of my school’s ecosystem because those were not what I felt like I needed to increase my candidacy for public health.

I looked at community organizations, I ended up volunteering at a center called, The Feminist Woman’s Health Center in Atlanta. They do a lot of education around sexual and reproductive health and I ended up volunteering on their health and education training committee for all four years of pharmacy school.

I looked into the CDC to see what types of internships or fellowships they offer that pharmacy students were eligible for. So, the summer after my second year of pharmacy school, I completed a CDC fellowship, it was called the Emerging Infectious Diseases Fellowship and it lasted for nine weeks, you were paired with a mentor, you actually worked on CDC teams, worked on a project, presented, everything.

I traveled to Panama for an epidemiology investigation in a Panamanian hospital. Those are like two of the core examples but any other time that I was engaging in extracurriculars, I made sure that they were related to public health in some way. One more that I just thought of, I was a part of SNPhA, the Student National Pharmacist Association and I participated in some of their community service projects because again, those are more public health facing educational opportunities.

I always had that lens and that perspective whenever I was doing anything outside of going to class, taking tests, and trying to get my degree.

[0:08:34.8] TU: I love the intentional and I hope if we have any students listening, they go back and rewind and listen to that because the message I hear there is that sometimes we got to get outside of the walls of the college or pharmacy to explore other opportunities and again, the PharmD can be used in so many different ways and I think your story here is a great example of that but sometimes it takes some creative thinking and it takes some initiative to see what those opportunities may be.

Tell us more one of the things you shared to me before is that you know, working for the CDC was a dream for you and you’re ultimately able to achieve that. Tell us more about what happened right after you graduated from pharmacy school. So it was during school, you identify this growing interest in public health, you see the connection to writing and then you have an opportunity to do an industry, fellowship as well as some work with the CDC thereafter, tell us more about those experiences.

[0:09:22.0] MF: Yeah, as I was going through pharmacy school and kind of collect these experiences that I hoped would be helpful for me in the future. I was also trying to think about what the immediate step post-graduation would be. My goal was to go straight back to the CDC after graduation. Those are the opportunities that I was most excited about and most intentional about but it wasn’t working out.

I wasn’t getting any opportunities that would be timely for me to start right after graduation and so I said, “Okay, if I can’t get to the CDC right now, what are other opportunities that I could take part in that were still public health-related that would still help me get back to CDC down the line?” So I looked into industry fellowships and I was specifically attracted to one program in particular because it had an FDA rotation as a component of the fellowship.

I graduated in 2015. So, at that time, it was one of the only industry fellowships that had any type of public health rotation as a part of it. It wasn’t like I had all of these choices. I did apply to many more programs because I would have made it work but this one, in particular, was of interest to me because of the FDA component and so that’s the fellowship program that I ended up getting accepted into.

Ironically, I got pregnant unexpectedly during the first year of my fellowship and so I never actually made it to the FDA rotation of the program. I was in the middle of my second rotation when I found out I was pregnant. What happened at that point was that I was located in New Jersey, the portion of my fellowship I was in at the time was the medical information rotation for Johnson Scientific Affairs, which is the pharmaceutical arm of Johnson & Johnson.

I was in New Jersey and I’m like, “Okay, well, I need to move back home” where my now husband but boyfriend at the time was and we have to get ready for it to be parents and so, I’m like, “Well, that also means I need a job because I can’t do my rotation from Atlanta” you know, maybe if it was 2020 or 2021, things are different now, maybe that would have worked out but at that time, basically, we just brought my rotation at one year instead of two.

I went back to the CDC drawing board, I was looking for fellowships, I was also applying to a whole bunch of other jobs mind you because like, this was survival at this point in time. It wasn’t about my preferences, I just needed a job in Atlanta but I was also looking for CDC opportunities and I saw this opportunity that was in the same department that I had completed my fellowship program in during pharmacy school.

I reached out to my mentor from that fellowship to ask her if she knew anything about the position, she wasn’t the hiring manager but she knew the person who was and so she connected me with that person, I went through the application, the interview process, everything and I got that position. I ended up back at the CDC, back at home in Atlanta, preparing for, to become a parent, and a lot of this story that I tell, it’s important for me to say that like, it sounds great now but that’s because I’m reflecting on past experiences, right?

Hindsight feels a lot better but all this journey was not easy. Even during pharmacy school, when I was engaging in all of these non-pharmacy specific projects, it was uncomfortable because I didn’t know if what I was trying to do was actually going to work and I had a lot of people who meant well, advisors, faculty members, in my ear, saying that I needed to go another route.

Similarly, with the fellowship experience, I was very disappointed in myself for not being able to complete my fellowship and I had three preceptors, which meant I had to tell three different people, “Hey, sorry, I’m pregnant and I can’t finish the fellowship” but they were all super supportive and when I got that role back at the CDC, one of my, I probably shouldn’t have favorites but one of my favorite preceptors said, “You should be proud of yourself because this two-year program was supposed to prepare you for a role like the one that you just got, not even nine months into your fellowship.”

“You should feel very proud of yourself.” I burst into tears because I was emotional and it was a lot going on, that really helped me put it into perspective. So that’s how I got back to the CDC. I should also add, the fellowship that I completed was in drug information and the CDC fellowship that I started after the one year of my fellowship was in health communications.

[0:14:10.0] TU: And we’re going to come back to more of the expansion on the interest and writing and where that has led to the work that you’re doing today. I want to come back real quick, Megan. You said something really important which I want – especially if we have any students listening. I want them to hear is that, you were given advice by several folks that I think, probably had good intent that maybe you should consider a different pathway and I can tell you from being in the academic environment for several years, we like very linear pathways, right?

We like very linear pathways where we know this opportunity’s going to lead to that opportunity and your pathway wasn’t necessarily linear in that you were coming in with somewhat of a nontraditional interest. You were getting different experiences but what you were doing is you were planting a lot of seeds and building a lot of relationships that sometimes it takes time for those to grow, right?

To flourish and I just love the passion and the interest that you had and continuing to pursue that, despite perhaps some outside noise of, “Maybe you might consider this and maybe you might consider that” and I think the lesson I hear there is, pursue the interest, plant the seeds, trust he process as you’re continuing to move forward and it might not always feel like one dot is going to connect to the next but I think as you shared in hindsight, you can start to appreciate how some of those things come together.

[0:15:24.3] MF: Absolutely. Trust the process and also trust yourself. One of the people who was encouraging me to do a residency which that’s what everybody was telling me to do, even my mentor at the CDC, understanding that I wanted to follow in her footsteps like once I found her, I was like, “You’re the person who I want to be like” and even knowing what my intention was, she was like, “You know, I really think you should do a residency first” and I’m like, “I hear you,” but what happens is sometimes, people are thinking about their own experiences and their own limitations when they are thinking about what you are or are not capable of doing and even though they have the best intentions, those ideas and those preconceived notions get projected onto you.

It’s really important to trust yourself enough to be able to examine what your thoughts, your preferences, your intentions are as well as the advice from trusted people but then to make your own decision based off of all of that information, including your own desires and intentions.

[0:16:26.9] TU: That’s one of the passion that I have and I’m not going to get on the financial soapbox because I do that in every other episode but that’s one of the challenges I have in our profession is that, they’re so often is the financial pressure of the student loans, the golden handcuffs of that six-figure income that folks that might be thinking about something more nontraditional or not as structured in terms of, “I’m going into residency, I’m going to go into fellowship, I’m going to go make this income” it can just be hard to have the space to explore that when you have those other pressures that are there.

I want to come back and ask you, you’ve really done a nice job I think of outlining this interest that you have in public health and an interest in writing, we’re going to come back and talk more about that but I didn’t ask you, what is the why behind that? Where did that passion come from in this intersection of public health and writing and what really motivates you and inspire you towards the work that you’re doing?

[0:17:14.1] MF: That’s a good question and one that I don’t think about as often. I can say that my interest in writing, I wouldn’t call it a passion at this present time or at the time that it started but my interest in writing actually came from a work study job that I had when I was at Emory. I was lucky enough not to be assigned to like putting books back on the shelves at the library the way a lot of our friends were for work study but I had a job with CancerQuest, which is a patient education website that was associated with Emory’s Winship Cancer Institute, and my role for CancerQuests was basically to update and write a lot of the patient education information that was on the website.

So that was like a huge directory of all these different types of treatments, preventative measures, therapies for different types of cancer and so I had to do a lot of research and write information that could be interpreted by the general public. It was kind of my first taste of health communications but I did not have the language to be able to say, “This is what this is.” I would say, from that point that kind of planted the seed for my interest in medical writing and health communications, although I didn’t realize it until probably a decade later.

Public health, I think that’s just something that has been a part of my experience as a person in the world. Like growing up in Columbia, South Carolina, amongst my family members who dealt with their own personal health issues, we were in a very communal environment. So in my neighborhood, like, my grandmother knew all the people on her street, all the people on her block, we were all kind of family.

Because of that, it wasn’t just my individual, like my nuclear or immediate family’s health conditions that I was aware of but we were kind of all aware of everybody’s business and so I really saw how important it was for people to have good healthcare, good health information and again, I wouldn’t have been able to verbalize this as a child but looking back, all of this information was kind of more abstractly in my brain at that time.

I think that just as I progressed throughout school, like K through 12, undergrad, I started to think more concretely about how environment and information and access to healthcare and good health information how critical that is to the health of communities and I think that also, just kind of as a black woman in the world, that level of awareness that comes with that lived experience as well, public health was just something that kind of called my name.

When I went to that field trip in the 9th grade, and toured the CDC, I think that was probably the first time that I was able to connect the actual field of public health with all of that previous life experience that I just named.

[0:20:13.5] TU: Admittedly Megan, my knowledge related to medical writing, health writing, health content writing, we’ve used our term health communications is pretty elementary and I’ve seen these terms used in different ways, and for folks that are listening, thinking about, “Hey, maybe I’m interested in entering this field” and whatever way that may be, break those terms down a little bit further for us.

What are the differences between those and the types of writing opportunities that folks maybe able to pursue?

[0:20:40.5] MF: So this is a juicy question because there are so many routes that a person could take, depending on what their interest are. So if we kind of backup and go to the most high-level area of this, when we talk about medical writing, like you, many people are using that term, interchangeably. Some people might describe what I do health content writing as medical writing.

It’s not that there is anything wrong in particular with using that language, but, I think what some people don’t realize is that medical wiring is more of an umbrella term that could actually describe a lot of different types of writing. Same thing with health writing. So when I talk about broadly and holistically, this space, you will sometimes hear me say medical and health writing, that’s because those are the broadest terms that describe all of the individual types that come down from that.

When we get to talking about like specific examples, you’ve heard me reference specific examples during this conversation, right? You heard me reference a drug information fellowship, a health communications fellowship, I’m a health content writer, it really depends on who is the audience and what style of writing is being done. Those are like, the two big buckets that can kind of help differentiate the different types of medical writing.

Medical writing, I typically think of those types as writing that’s geared towards a clinical audience, an audience of health professionals, an audience of scientist, it’s typically more formal in nature and the topics are often times more specific to medicine, like actual treatment, prevention, therapies and so some specific types of medical writing would be drug information that adhere to a clinical audience.

Another type would be scientific writing, another type would be regulatory writing. So you will see a lot of regulatory positions at pharmaceutical companies because there are people there who are writing INDs, they’re writing documents that need to go to the FDA or to different regulatory associations, so that’s definitely a type of medical writing. Scientific publications is a type of medical writing.

Medical communications, so these are companies who are sometimes contracted by pharmaceutical companies to create materials, to educate other health professionals, right? So if you want to put together a slide deck or a post of presentation to present at a conference, that’s often happening at medical communications companies. So, all of those are examples of medical writing, which is often times again, a more formal and geared to a clinical or health professions audience.

Then, on the other side of that, you have the other umbrella term of health writing. Health writing, I typically think of as geared to a more lay or general public audience and the topics are not always so scientific or medical. They could be more wellness oriented or more health oriented but health oriented from the standpoint of how does an individual person apply this information to their actual life, not health oriented as in like all of the science of like how this drug works or blah-blah-blah.

Specific examples of health writing are health communications, the fellowship that I mentioned at the CDC. In that position, I was basically like a liaison between our research team and the general public. So when they would come up with their research, I would create fact sheets, blog post, maybe sometimes op-eds, talking points that could go on the website that regular folks could understand.

There is also health journalism, which is when you go to the Washington Post or you go to health magazine, those articles that you see in there, those are forms of health journalism and then my personal favorite, health content writing. We’ll probably dive more into content writing but broadly content writing is information or education that’s presented online in most cases that help someone solve a health problem or answer a health question.

One of the most common ways that content writing becomes visible is when you go to Google, right? If you’re a mom, a new mom at 4:00 in the morning and you baby is not latching and they won’t go to sleep and you go to Google and you say, “Help, my four-month-old isn’t latching” the information that comes up, some of it might be like forums, parent forums but the articles that come up often times those are examples of health content writing because they’re helping you answer a question or solve a health problem that you have.

[0:25:23.7] TU: That was great. I mean, probably the best explanations I’ve heard and I know you have my mind spinning of, “Okay, if I am thinking about this as a potential side hustle or career opportunity, okay, what are the different ways? What might be my strengths or interest?” What would yours that I’d want to pursue? So the examples there were really helpful. I have heard you talk before about three main reasons that folks may get started in medical and health writing.

Those could be number one, they want to influence the public health on a larger scale, number two is to use their degree along with a healthy dose of creativity and number three is to create an additional stream of income outside of their clinical career. My question for you knowing that you coach many other pharmacists and other healthcare professionals that are exploring this area of writing, do you see one of those resonate more than the others or are folks often entering into this space because of all three of those or some combination of them?

[0:26:18.1] MF: That’s a really good question. I think most people have – I will answer this question in two ways, there are people who are interested and then there are people who take the steps to pursue. Those are often two different types of people, so people who are interested of course can have any of those three reasons. It could be relevant but I find that often times the biggest draw is the additional stream of income.

But what happens is once they realize how much work it actually involves to get to the point where they are qualified to be a health content writing, only having the interest of an additional stream of income is not enough. It’s not enough –

[0:26:59.0] TU: It’s not a strong enough why right?

[0:27:00.0] MF: No, it’s not at all because the return on investment yes, could be there because like you can make a whole living out of health content writing and plenty of people do but to get to that point where you can even do that, the time that it takes to learn the skills, to create the portfolio, to go out and find clients, only being motivated by the money is oftentimes not good enough.

The students that I work with and even students, that pharmacists that do decide to pursue health content writing but they choose another route or aren’t necessarily in my program, I find that there is more of that interest in really influencing public health and utilizing their degree in a way that brings them fulfillment and joy and opportunity to actually educate people, which is something that we are often sold on during pharmacy school.

But in reality, in real life once you get out into the workforce, sometimes it’s not really a major piece of what you are able to do in your workspace. So a lot of the students that I work with express to me that of course, they love to have some extra money because you said it earlier, loans and debt and family but what they’re really looking for is a way to find more fulfillment and joy within their profession.

There are lots of side hustles, other opportunities that people could engage in to make money but people don’t necessarily want to let their degree and their education and their experience go. It is not that they don’t love pharmacy or love healthcare, it’s that maybe they don’t love the way that they have to execute it in their full-time roles. So if there’s a way for them to still use the background that they have in a more fulfilling and impactful way, then they’re very into that.

[0:28:50.0] TU: So well said, you know, often I say and feel myself that forward progress and growth is such an important factor for us as individuals and human being, that we have a feeling of growth that we’re developing ourselves and I think for many pharmacists that may be are feeling stuck or they aren’t feeling that growth or they aren’t feeling like they’re using their degree to their full potential, that can be a suffocating feeling.

I often say that side hustle’s income that’s a nice symptom but really what we want to be focusing on I think in part and not overlook is, what’s the motivation, what’s the purpose, what creative outlet is this providing and that’s a hard benefit to measure but don’t underestimate it because it’s so powerful especially if you feel like you’re in a situation where you’re stuck. It’s so powerful to feel like you’re growing, you’re developing and you’re moving forward.

Let me ask you a question I’m sure you get all the time, which is: can I work full-time doing this? Is that a viable pathway to grow a medical writing business?

[0:29:49.3] MF: Yeah, so I’d say that the answer is emphatically yes. When I started out as a freelance health content writer, I had a full-time job. I will do a quick aside to address something that you just brought up in terms of having that source of fulfillment is I was in a job that I did not like. It was my third time at the CDC and it was a regulatory writing job and it was not my most exciting role and so I started blogging on the side just because I needed a creative outlet.

That really helped me when I was in that full-time role that I didn’t like because I had something that was going on that was interesting to me and so that was exactly how I got started as a health content writer. I had a full-time job at the time, it was accidental because I was not yet aware that health content writing was a field and so when I started my blog, it just so happened that a health company saw it and reached out to me and asked if I was right for them.

That was how I first freelance writing opportunity but it wasn’t until a year and nine months later that I actually left my full-time job for that entire year and nine months, I was freelancing on the side. So it’s definitely possible, I would say it is definitely one of the most common approaches. If you are in a position where you are just learning the skill of freelance health content writing, I don’t know what your financials are like.

If you have a couple of tens of thousands in the bank and you can afford to just shut your full-time work down so that you can focus on freelance health content writing, that’s definitely open to you but for most people, it’s going to take time to even get the foundations that you need to be able to get started and then once you start, it’s going to take you some time to get your feet under you and get to the point where you can bring on more and more clients.

So, in most cases, it actually makes sense to start with a full-time job so that you are not reliant upon this income source that you haven’t yet created. So definitely possible, it just takes time management and availability of time as well.

[0:32:02.2] TU: Yeah and I am a firm believer as you kind of were eluding to there that building a business upon the back of a strong personal financial foundation is so important, right? Because you can approach that opportunity with less stress, you can approach that opportunity with confidence and perhaps some folks can manage to make that jump and not to have that stress still if they have additional savings.

But I think for many, having that full-time job will allow them to pursue that opportunity with confidence and to minimize that stress. Talk to us about StockRose Creative, the company that you’ve started and have been growing, talk to us about what it is, how it came to be and what are the services that you offer?

[0:32:38.4] MF: Yeah, so StockRose is the business entity that I created when I decided to go full-time in my health content writing work. Unlike the students that I work with, I did not have real guidance when I got into the health content writing space. I was just out here figuring it out on my own and so because of that, I dabbled in a lot of different types of writing through StockRose before I landed on health content writing solely and before I got even narrower in the specific types of writing services that I was offering through health content writing.

Today, what that looks like is I offer blog writing and video scripting services particularly for digital health companies and especially if those digital health companies have audiences that are primarily black or they have portions of their audiences that are primarily black and the reason for that is because content writing is a very small piece of content marketing. It’s a much broader process and so a part of what you had to do if you’re interested in being a freelance health content writer is you have to understand how that fits into the broader process.

With that, strategy is a part of the process that has to come before writing and sometimes companies, they do not have that strategic part in-house and so I consult with them to say, “Hey, if you have audiences that are black or primarily black, you’re going to have to develop a different content strategy in order to actually have content writers that are writing effectively for those audiences.”

That’s the core service that I provide but it did not start out that way, it was much more lose and difficult to define because I was figuring it out as I went along. So that’s kind of the service part of my company and then the coaching part of my company, I’ll kind of give some context to how that came about. I really sat down one day and thought, “What is the theme of my professional career?”

I’ve had a lot of different roles and they’ve all had writing in common but beyond that, what kind of links everything together? I realized that in all of my past, fighting health misinformation and putting out good health information has been the theme that connects everything together and is what I’m passionate about and what I want to continue doing into the future and so if I want to fight health misinformation, which is getting more rampant by the minute it seems, I am not the only person who can or should be doing that.

There are more people and specifically, healthcare providers who should be doing that. The problem is that most healthcare providers don’t have experience in health content writing or creating online content. It is not because they can’t do it, it’s just because they don’t have the exposure or the experience in order to be able to do it. So the question is, well, how do they get that? Technically, I could hire them.

However, I am not particularly interested in running an agency or managing other writers like that’s just when you get to the point where you’re running an agency, it often takes you out of the actual execution of whatever the service that you’re providing and you become a manager and my passion is about the creation of the health information. So my question was, “Well, how do I help other healthcare professionals become health writers so that they too can be able to counter the misinformation that’s out there?”

I decided that creating this accelerator program called Health Professionals to Health Writers, where there is didactic teaching to make sure people have the foundational knowledge of content marketing that they need, where they are able to create the portfolio of samples that they need to actually get freelance gigs and where they actually build out the business processes they need to know how to go out and secure clients.

That would be the way to help more professionals have the skills and the experience that they need to be freelance health content writers as well. So that’s what my coaching side of StockRose does under the Health Professionals to Health Writers accelerator program.

[0:36:58.0] TU: I love that and I think that aligns so well with your why, right? Of how you got into this in the first place. You talk about fighting misinformation and looking at doing that on a broader scale, the impact of that is you coach up and train up other pharmacists, other healthcare professionals, the impact of that is going to be much greater than your writing alone or even a team or writing if you did go with that approach.

We’ll link in the show notes, that’s stockrosecreative.com, folks can go there. We’re also going to link in the show notes, you have a Health Writing for Health Professionals 101 series on YouTube, and then folks can also learn more about the accelerator program that you mentioned as well, some of the work that you’re doing. I do want to ask you, this is somewhat of an aside, but I think a really cool accomplishment, I’ve been following your work on LinkedIn, and I saw you recently went through the LinkedIn Creator Accelerator Program as a part of the first class of a 100.

First of all, congratulations on that accomplishment, that was fantastic. What did you take away from that program about yourself and about leveraging LinkedIn as a platform to help grow your business?

[0:37:57.2] MF: Thank you, Tim, for the congratulations. That was probably one of my most exciting accomplishments of last year. I was literally in tears when I got the email that I got into the program and I do also have to shoutout Brian Fung, who was the one and only other pharmacist in the first 100 with me, so we had a great time. I think the most important thing that we took away from that experience was how important it is to really be intentional about the content and the information that you’re creating not just on LinkedIn but online in general.

That might sound odd because as a health content writer, that’s exactly what I do but I think the most important part here is thinking about there’s always an audience that you are sharing information to. If you are ever creating any content whether it’s health content or social content or anything, if you are creating that just for you, then you are really missing an opportunity to connect with the people who are following you and watching you and listening to you.

Because they often times have different perceptions, leads, preconceived notions than you do and so, whenever you’re creating content, this applies to health content writing as well, you really have to be less focused on what you think and what you already know and really dive into what your audience thinks, what they do and don’t know so that you can create that content in a way that helps address their questions and helps solve their problems as accurately as possible.

You are not necessarily a reflection of the people who are trying to learn from you. If I were creating content on LinkedIn just for me, I would be going over the heads of so many people because I’ve been a content writer for five years. There are people, pharmacists who are coming across my account who have literally never heard of health content writing before. Students that I’ve worked with are like, “I did not know what this was until I saw your post.”

If I am not keeping that in mind and really trying to get a sense of where people are, then I am missing the point and the same holds true for any type of content that you are creating for any reason, paying attention to what your audience thinks and what they need.

[0:40:17.9] TU: I hope, folks, if they are not already following you on LinkedIn, they’ll be able to see that in action, so I hope they will. We’ll link to that in the show notes, Megan N. Freeland on LinkedIn. All right, my last question here for you, Megan, you had a post on LinkedIn recently that caught my attention and I didn’t prep you for this question, so this is going to be a discussion but you said:

“When you’ve worked so hard to get to a certain point, people may tell you to just be grateful that you’ve made it there. The sentiment implies that asking for anything more is mere greed. To that I say, don’t you dare dim your light for anyone else’s comfort. You can be grateful for your journey without having to stay there. We are all allowed to grow, mature, and evolve. Going after the career you want and the life you desire is not selfish, it’s your right and most importantly, it is within your power to do.” Tell us more.

[0:41:10.0] MF: Okay, hearing that read back to me that kind of got me in the heart a little bit. This kind of goes back to what I alluded to before about trusting yourself and recognizing that people might have your best interest at heart, or they might think that they do but they will also set limitations on you based on what they think is possible and what they think is fair and what they think is possible for them to do.

Sometimes, when you’ve worked really hard to achieve this goal, let’s say the goal is just graduating from pharmacy school, that might have been an expectation that either people didn’t have for you or people don’t have for themselves and so when you get to that point and if you turn around and realize, “I am proud of myself and I am glad that I accomplished this goal but I don’t feel completely settled” right?

I still feel like there’s something out there more for me, I still feel like maybe I am not in the exact place that I should be, maybe I’m close but maybe I’m not quite there, if you express that feeling to people, there are people who might say, “What are you talking about? You’re a pharmacist, you graduated, you should be grateful. I am over here doing XYZ, that’s not as cool as being a pharmacist, you have nothing to complain about” and that’s not about you.

That type of response is not about you, that’s about them and so my advice to anyone in this situation is your life is not anyone else’s. Your life is your own, no one else is responsible for what you do. No one else has to live with your decisions or your choices and so, regardless of how people respond to your discomfort or your feelings of unfulfillment or whatever it is, know that you are deserving of having the professional trajectory, having the life, having the career, having the whatever that you decide you want.

That’s within your control, that’s within your power and frankly, it is not for anyone else to comment on at all but if you say it to people, they will comment but just keep in mind that you determine all of that stuff. You determine the trajectory and you don’t have to feel guilty about that because it’s your life and you’re the only person who’s responsible for it.

[0:43:27.2] TU: So powerful, Megan, great said. It reminds me of a couple books I read and reread recently that I’d highly recommend, The Four Agreements, is one and the second one is, The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks. We’ll link to those in the show notes but those, both of those books get exactly to what you just shared there and that is so important for other people to hear especially for folks that are out there creating, putting content, stepping out in non-traditional ways like if you don’t work through that individual, everything you just shared there, it can be a very painful journey.

I think for folks to really realize what is their full opportunity but are their goals not what is the outside noise but what is their full opportunity, what are their goals and can they really lean into that is such encouraging words. Well, this has been a lot of fun and I am so grateful that you have taken time to come on the show. Where is the best place that folks can go to follow your work and learn more about what you’re doing?

[0:44:17.6] MF: Thank you for having me, Tim. This was a wonderful conversation. It’s been a while since I did a podcast, so I thought I was going to be a little rusty, but you made it really smooth, so I appreciate you. The best way to reach out to me is really via LinkedIn, we’ve talked about LinkedIn a lot, I am on there every day. So if you listen to this episode and you want to learn more about health content writing or you just want to say hey or you want to ask follow-up questions about anything Tim and I talked here, just find me on LinkedIn and shoot me a message. I love having conversations with folks there, so that is how you can reach me best and I look forward to chatting with you.

[0:44:51.7] TU: Great stuff, thank you so much, Megan, for taking the time to come on the show. We really appreciate it.

[0:44:55.1] MF: Thank you, Tim.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:44:56.7] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, let’s hear an important message from our sponsor, Insuring Income. If you are in the market to add own occupation disability insurance, term life insurance or both, Insuring Income would love to be your resource. Insuring Income has relationships with all of the high quality disability insurance and life insurance carriers you should be considering and can help you design coverage to best protect you and your family.

Head over to insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist or click on their link in the show notes to request quotes, ask a question or start down your own path of learning more about this necessary protection.

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:45:32.9] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information of the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post, and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analysis expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 258: How Much Home Can You Afford?

Posted on by yfpadmin

How Much Home Can You Afford?

On this episode, sponsored by First Horizon, Tony Umholtz talks through how to determine how much home you can afford.

About Today’s Guest

Tony Umholtz graduated Cum Laude from the University of South Florida with a B.S. in Finance from the Muma College of Business. He then went on to complete his MBA. While at USF, Tony was part of the inaugural football team in 1997. He earned both Academic and AP All-American Honors during his collegiate career. After college, Tony had the opportunity to sign contracts with several NFL teams including the Tennessee Titans, New York Giants, and the New England Patriots. Being active in the community is also important to Tony. He has served or serves as a board member for several charitable and non-profit organizations including board member for the Salvation Army, FCA Tampa Bay, and the USF National Alumni Association. Having orchestrated over $1.1 billion in lending volume during his career, Tony has consistently been ranked as one of the top mortgage loan officers in the industry by the Scotsman’s Guide, Mortgage Executive magazine, and Mortgage Originator magazine.

Episode Summary

In this episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, is joined by Tony Umholtz, a mortgage manager at First Horizon. Tony has years of experience working with pharmacists all over the country in securing home loans. In this episode, Tim and Tony kick off the discussion by looking at how the real estate market has changed recently and why we are currently in a seller’s market. Tim and Tony discuss rate hikes and inflation, the 28-36 rule, and what that means for a pharmacist as a potential home buyer. Next, they dive into the many factors banks consider when someone applies for a home loan and which are the most important. Tony shares how each home loan situation is different and dependent on individual circumstances. He also discusses insurance and how you can make better choices to save in that area. Then, Tim and Tony dig into the area of tax and how it differs from state to state. Tony shares a brief overview of the First Horizon pharmacist home loan product, the challenges pharmacists may face with this product, and the benefits it can provide for a pharmacist, whether fully qualified and earning a full income or not.

Key Points From This Episode

An overview of today’s guest, Tony Umholtz.
How the real estate purchase market has not slowed down but refinancing has.
Why we are in a seller’s market.
What rate hikes mean and the impact they have on mortgage rates.
The impact inflation will have on rates.
Why locking as soon as possible is preferable when purchasing a home.
What the 28-36 rule is.
What banks consider when you apply for a home loan and what factors are more important.
How the appraisal gap affects the market.
The importance of considering expenses, fixed and variable, other than the loan.
How insurance changes depending on what part of the USA you are in.
The danger of over-committing to personal property insurance.
The effect of property value on tax and how that changes from state to state.
An overview of the pharmacist home loan product Tony offers through First Horizon.

Highlights

“The most important [factor] is the ability to repay [your loans.]” — Tony Umholtz [0:10:57]

“Just because the bank says you can afford this, doesn’t mean it’s right for you.” — Tony Umholtz [0:11:24]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I had a chance to welcome back on to the show, Tony Umholtz, a mortgage manager for First Horizon, formerly IBERIABANK. During the interview, Tony and I talk through how to determine how much home you can afford, a timely topic, considering the seller’s market we’re in and the rising interest rates that are driving up the cost of owning a home.

During the show, we talk about the current state of the market, interest rates, and trends Tony has seen through his experiences working with pharmacists across the country. We discuss what formulas lenders use to determine the amount of home they will allow one to purchase, why you and not the bank should establish the budget for buying a home, and we also discuss the total cost of owning a home and things to consider beyond the purchase price.

Before we hear from today’s sponsor and then jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 households in 40 plus states. YFP planning offers free only, high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional.

If you’re interested in learning more about working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

Okay, let’s hear from today’s sponsor and then we’ll jump into my interview with Tony.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

[0:01:36.2] TU: Does saving 20 percent for a down payment on a home feel like an uphill battle? It’s no secret that pharmacists have a lot of competing financial priorities, including high student loan debt, meaning that saving 20 percent for a down payment on a home may take years.

We’ve been on the hunt for a solution for pharmacists that are ready to purchase a home with a lower down payment and are happy to have found that option with First Horizon, previously IBERIABANK/First Horizon.

First Horizon offers a professional home loan option, AKA, a doctor or pharmacist home loan that requires a 3 percent down payment for a single-family home or townhome. Has no PMI and offers a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage on home loans up to $647,200.

The pharmacist home loan is available on all states except Alaska and Hawaii and can be used to purchase condos as well. However, rates may be higher and a condo review has to be completed.

To check out the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to start the preapproval process, visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that is yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:41.9] TU1: Tony, welcome back to the show.

[0:02:45.3] TU2: Tim, good to be here with you.

[0:02:47.3] TU1: So, we had you last on this show on episode 245 when we talked about getting under contract in a competitive home market. Interest rates at that time were starting to creep a little bit back in March but they have certainly jumped significantly since then. So with interest rates on the rise, Tony, are things slowing down at all in this market?

[0:03:08.6] TU2: You know, it’s interesting Tim, the purchase market has not slowed down, it’s still very healthy. Refinances have, we’ve definitely seen a pullback in refinances are some cash-out refinances where people are taking advantage of their equity position and then something called a delayed cash out because there seems like there’s a lot of people that have money to pay cash for houses so they’re actually coming back to do what’s called delayed cash out. So we’ve been seeing some of those but on average, the refinance are way down as you can imagine with rates coming up.

[0:03:39.5] TU1: Yeah, it wasn’t too long ago you and I were talking about refinancing back at the beginning of the pandemic when rates were in the high twos and low three. Obviously, we’re at a very different point in place but at the end of the day, we still have a supply issue so you know, we see rent prices that are skyrocketing, which I suspect is further in individuals to want to get a new home, supply and demand.

So it feels like, despite the rate hikes that are happening, you know, recently it feels like for the home buyer, unfortunately, they’re still going to be in a very competitive market that is the seller’s market. Is that what you’re saying as well?

[0:04:11.8] TU2: Yeah, absolutely, Tim. I mean, every market’s different as we’ve discussed but on average, most markets are just not – they don’t have enough inventory and I think clearly, that’s going to push prices higher and if you’re renting and you could go pay equivalent of your rent or even less buying a home and you get appreciation. I think that’s why we have such demands. So yeah, there’s no season and demand out there that I’ve seen so far.

[0:04:36.8] TU1: Tony, I want to pick your brain for a minute, you know, the day we’re recording this, we’re expecting news today of the Fed to hike interest rates, I think we’re expecting 50 basis points, a half a percent but you know, awaiting that news and so is the stock market to see what happens.

But I always appreciate your perspective economically on what these types of Fed rate hikes mean and the impact that he may have on mortgage rates. So as you’re expecting this news to come up today, whether it’s 50 basis points or it ends up being something a little bit different than that, what are the potential implications that we should be looking for?

[0:05:09.9] TU2: Great question. I mean, the timing is a couple of hours here we’re going to get the announcement but the biggest thing is that the rates have run up so much this year since January, without the fed doing much of anything yet, right? It’s just been talk, it’s been kind of projections and they did raise a quarter already on the Fed funds rate and right now, the outlook is 50 basis points today.

It could be 76, it might shock the market but let’s say, it’s 50. Really, that’s not what I’m pinpointing as the issue for mortgage rates. It’s not going to be the front end of the curve so that front end of the curve, what we call the fed funds rate is going to affect your credit card rates, your home equity line rates, maybe some auto loans, floating rates, rates that are floating rates on the market. But long-term mortgage rates are more going to be influenced by what the fed says about balance sheet reduction.

Basically during the last couple of years, during the pandemic, they were helping stimulate the economy by basically buying bonds, being the biggest buyer of bonds, mortgage bonds, the treasury bonds and that helped push rates lower. So essentially, that runoff of their balance sheet adds supply to the bond market so that affects rates and it’s going to affect the stock market too I would think but that’s going to be what I’m watching the most for rates, you know, long-term rates and how to advice my clients.

I mean, I’ve been in a complete locking bias since the beginning of the year. I’ve had very few clients that wanted to float but my opinion’s always been lock as soon as you can and I think, today’s going to be, you know, we’ll learn more about the outlook here and what the fed’s going to do. You never want to fight the fed in what you do and the one thing I would say too is, inflation is the thing we have to watch for rates as well.

If we get any sort of ease and inflation, that can spark a new trend of rates, maybe easing a little bit, maybe capping. So those are the things I’m going to be looking for today, Tim.

[0:07:07.1] TU1: Yeah, and as you and I talk before the – we hit record, if we do find ourselves in a mild type of recession or recessionary period, we would expect the rates to come back down which could have implications as well so certainly, we’re in a volatile time period and to your comment, in case folks aren’t familiar with that terminology in terms of rate locking versus floating.

You know, in time periods where we may be expecting a reduction in rates, perhaps something like a float matters but you know, to your point, this year, as we’ve been expecting rates to go up, locking as soon as possible typically seems to be in someone’s advantage as a look they are looking to purchasing a home.

So today, what we’re talking about is how to determine how much one can afford when it comes to home buying and I think this is a really timely topic ass we’ve painted a picture so far. We’re in a seller’s market, we got rising interests rates which of course means more to the home buyer.

We also see that there’s more and more that’s out there in terms of the average loan size. So perhaps someone depending on the part of the country they were living in, you know, maybe a couple of years ago they were looking at a home that was selling at 400,000 and easily that may be north of 500,000, obviously, very different depending on the market.

So escalating home prices, rising interest rates means affordability of home, it’s certainly a timely topic and as we’re often talking about, we need to be considering how this home purchase and how the cost of the home fits in with the rest of the financial plan and the goals that someone is trying to achieve.

So Tony, let’s start with how the bank determines how much they’re willing to lend to an individual? So does the 28-36 rule stilly apply and first, if you could define what that is and talk to us about how that is determined in terms of what one is willing to lend from the institutions?

[0:08:51.1] TU2: Sure, yeah, sure. So the 28-36 rule has been around a long time. It’s a little different nowadays, we look at the multitude of factors which is to kind of go back to define what that is. Basically, the 28 percent is the amount of your monthly income that can be for a housing payment, okay? So basically, we’ll try to make it as simple as we can so let’s say you had a $10,000 a month gross income, the definition would be okay, so $2,800 can be allocated to a housing expense, okay?

Now, that is not how it’s underwritten today but historically, that was something that we looked at. It’s still looked at to some degree but we look at it a little bit differently now. It’s more your total debt, right? Your total debt ratio and that’s with a 36 percent looked at so they’d say, “Well, if you make 10,000 a month gross income, we could allocate $3,600 a month to debt” so that might be your housing expense, your car loan, credit cards.

One thing that banks do not look at is like, your auto insurance, cellphone bills, we typically don’t look at any of that in your expenses, it’s just creditor debt. So credit cards, student loans, things like that. So historically, that was a metric, especially when we did FHA loans years ago but nowadays, it’s more viewed on the total debt ratio. So we typically like to stay at 43 percent of your total debt or better.

That could be like, if you have no debt and you have a $10,000 a month gross income, household income and you are buying a home that requires a $4,300 a month payment. So that’s your total payment, it’s your principal interest, taxes, and assurance, you could still qualify because you have no other debts, right? So that’s going to be a fairly large house but you could still qualify given that there’s metrics. So that’s kind of the significance of it.

So these are called debt to income ratios is what the terminology is and that’s a very important metric for lenders. In fact, it’s one of the most important metrics. Like credit score obviously is important, reserves can be in certain products but the most important is the ability to repay. Banks are required by law to prove that.

That’s why income, if anyone’s gotten a loan anytime in the recent future, at least in the last 10 years in the recent past is you had to give a lot of documentation to the lender because we have to document the income because we have to prove you have the ability to repay. It’s called the ATR rule, so that’s the reason for these ratios.

Just because the bank says you can afford this, doesn’t mean it’s right for you, you know? So, everybody’s different, everyone’s situation is different, so it doesn’t mean it’s right for you. Now, the other side of it too and I’ll mention this is depending on the product, depending on the individual, we can go up to higher debt to income ratios, above 43 and that’s generally when you’re putting 20 percent down and you have a compensating factor.

So we do see that as well, that does occur as well. I know it’s kind of a broad scope but I wanted to kind of include because everyone’s situation is different. It’s not like a one size fits all.

[0:12:03.2] TU1: Yeah and that’s great, Tony, because I think for many pharmacists, even the numbers you use, so $10,000 a month of gross income, you know, pharmacists, you divide that by 1,200, $120,000 a year, pretty close to what we thread that comes to a national average and obviously people can do the math if there’s more than one income but I think that’s a good point of reference.

Just to reiterate what you said, you’re talking there about when we were refer to percentage that can be allocated in the housing expenses, we’re referring to the principle interest taxes and insurance, which is important. So folks are looking on Zillow or Red Fin or Realtor, we’re looking at homes that they’re looking at all those expenses that would be combined.

I want to come back Tony, and just dig a little bit deeper, you know, you mentioned a few things, if I heard you correctly that that will factor into this decision whether it’s a number lower than 43 percent or perhaps higher than 43 percent You mentioned down payment and the amount that’s down, you mention reserves. I heard you mention credit score as well.

So talk to us more about, in addition to just the income that one is making or obviously you have to produce W2s or income source as a part of the lending application, how do those other things factor in? So if I’m someone that’s got substantial reserves and I can bring more down but perhaps I don’t have as high of a credit score like how will that impact or do some of these weigh more heavily than others?

[0:13:20.5] TU2: It does. I mean, there’s different types of products out there so everything, there is different programs we have, different loan sizes, all sorts of things, so everyone’s different. So for example, we have loans for lower credit score, people with lower credit scores. I mean, FHA loans for example, which is a government backed loan, we can get pretty low credit scores approved for that with just three and a half percent down.

Now, there is high PMI with those loans, right? There’s very high PMI and then rates can be affected by your credit scores as well and then, we have loans for people that have lots of money and don’t show income, which is fairly common with business owners, right? They have sold the business or I had a couple of pro-athletes that I’ve worked with over the years that in between contracts and they’ve made a lot of money but they don’t have an employer right now.

So and there’s programs available for them. So not to get into too much of the granular but there is different options out there for different people. I would say the key though is the ability to repay. So it’s hard to say now, for example, the product we offer to pharmacist, we have minimum credit score of 700. I really can’t deviate from that because that’s a program guideline for that particular product but a conventional loan through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac has, I mean, I can go down and do a 620-credit score with that which is pretty low.

But if your rates are going to be affected by that, you’re going to – may have to put more down than you would like to and there is going to be a give and take. So it’s viewed a little differently, depending on situations.

[0:14:50.4] TU1: Yeah and I think you just highlighted there why this is not a cookie-cutter approach, right? I mean, everyone’s credit situation’s going to be different or income’s going to be different, obviously, the area in which they’re buying a home is going to be different, what to bring down, the reserves, the type of loan product name to pursue could be different so I think really have any good understanding of those and working with a wonder that can walk you through those really important, because it needs to be a custom decision to your personal situation.

Tony, I want to talk for a moment, you mentioned obviously the idea that yes, you know, what the bank approves is one variable but also, you know, that may or may not mean that it fits in with the other financial goals and I think that’s really important but you and I have talked about this before in the show but the bank isn’t’ considering one’s list of financial goals in the home buying decision, right? They may not be thinking about, “Well, are you on track for retirement or are you not? You know, how are we addressing the student loan repayment plan?”

So obviously is a part of the broader financial plan, we need to be thinking about that overall monthly budget, that overall housing expense and how that fits in and allows us or does not allow us to be able to progress and achieve with other financial goals. So again, we’re going to have to play by the rules of the bank of course but ultimately, we need to be setting our own budget. So with that in mind, I want to talk through other costs that folks need to consider.

So we mentioned already principle, interests, taxes and insurance. So those are four things that we need to be thinking about but in this market that we’re in right now, one of the things that I’m going to talk about is just the amount that someone might have to be bringing to the table and yes, down payment is going to be one part of that but I know in our area, we’re seeing a lot of waving of appraisal gaps which could mean that more cash needs to be brought to the table by the buyer.

So can you talk to us about what is that in terms of the appraisal gap waver and why we’re seeing that play out in the market that it is and how that can obviously impact how much money somebody has to bring to the table.

[0:16:46.6] TU2: Yeah, absolutely. So, let’s address that and we could talk a little bit more about how things may evolve here but I think the appraisal gap, you know, we’re still seeing that in many markets around the country. I mean, there’s a lot of high demand markets and we haven’t built enough homes the last 10 to 15 years, so that’s why we’re in this position that we’re in and builders can’t keep up with because of obviously the tight supply chain, it’s taking longer to build and it’s harder to build.

So the appraisal gap is tricky because, if you agree to this, right? I’m going to bring this, you basically, have to have the catch, right? To fill the gap, so if the price of the home is $400,000 and you have this waver and it appraises for 350, well, the bank’s going to use a 350, right? 350 value. The lender has to uses the appraised value and you know, let’s say we’re going to lend you 5 percent down. It was a 400, now it’s 5 percent down and 350, so you’re putting 5 percent down off 350, plus, the 50,000 gap that you agreed to with the seller.

So you really have to plan ahead and look at how much cash you have if you agree to that situation. Now sometimes, it will appraise in that you don’t know, it may come in okay but I would definitely heed your realtor’s advice if they think they may not, right? Because there could be a change. You know, one of the things that we’re looking and at every market’s different so you can’t speak to every single city in the country but on average, there’s a lot of this happening around the country but a little bit of a pause with help, right?

I think if we could get, you know, instead of seeing double-digit price increases for homes, if we got mid-single digits would be healthy right? You know, if you got a 5 percent, 6 percent appreciation on your home and you are putting 5 percent down, you’re getting an unbelievable return on your money and you are getting – you are not in such a bidding war crisis that we’re in now but I am hoping that will kind of happen and will normalize a little bit.

But I would just be really careful about what you agreed to when you are buying now. I am very cautious about waving inspections and things like that. I just think if you can get anything in, plugged in, it just protects you and you have your eyes open and if there is, if you have to agree to something like a waiver, just make sure you have enough time to get your inspections done so you know every – at least you know the house is in good shape.

There is nothing to worry about there and if there is a little bit of a value change then I hate to say it, but the reason you are agreeing to that is there’s other buyers out there waiting to buy it too. So there is going to be a lot of demand for real estate for quite some time until you see inventory levels rise.

[0:19:23.6] TU1: Yeah and I think that’s the concern, right? You’re set and done, I am not in the market you know, for a home in the moment but especially for first time home buyers it’s an exciting, it’s an emotional process and in a seller’s market where we are seeing a lot of bidding wars, I think there is just caution that we need to use when you look at waiving appraisal gaps, waiving of inspections and some of that as well because ultimately again, you know as we talk about often on the show, you know home buying is a really important part of the financial plan but it is one piece of the puzzle, right?

So we got to make sure that we can enter that home, we can enter that situation with confidence that we’re able to move our other financial goals forward. We were just talking before the show, I mentioned that Tim Baker and I were looking at property here in the area that it was listed around 530 and it ended up selling for an all cash offer at 650 and that was an example where appraisal is going to come in around that 530 points.

So that means in that case, that’s someone is going to be bringing in over a $100,000 of cash to the table. So that is another thing is we talk about affordability of home, if you find yourself in that position even if it’s a smaller amount, right? Five or $10,000, we got to factor that in on top of the down payment and on top of the other expenses that relate to purchasing that home.

[0:20:39.8] TU2: Absolutely. You have to run your numbers on your reserves and how much cash you have if you agree to something to that effect.

[0:20:46.8] TU1: Tony, I think it’s interesting the trickledown effect of this economically, right? We’re seeing rent prices here in Columbus, which I think is happening nationwide are going through the roof and obviously that presents a challenge for many folks. The other thing I am seeing recently, actually I heard an ad this morning, it was a window company here in Columbus that was running an ad basically playing on this saying, “Hey, instead of moving because of the market that we’re in, now is a great time to upgrade your home” right?

So you know, I think that we’re seeing this rising level of cost, some people are thinking about making an upgrade or finishes to their home, windows, remodel their kitchens, basements, whatever and again with the supply chain issues, I mean it is really hitting people I think in all different areas. So certainly a challenging time and yes, there’s appreciation there but having to see that offset by some cash flow pinches that can happen in the moment.

[0:21:34.9] TU2: Right, yeah absolutely.

[0:21:37.1] TU1: Tony, I want to go a little bit deeper into, you know, we talked about principle interest taxes and insurance. So again, as we think about affordability of the home, we talked about the percent down and that may need to be more because of the market that we’re in especially, we find ourselves in a waving of an appraisal gap situation and so the other thing I want to hit on here is that assuming somebody chooses a fixed loan and we’ll talk about the pharmacist home loan product here in a moment.

You know, that principle and interest is going to be fixed over the life of the loan but one of the things that they need to consider and I’ve lived this firsthand is that taxes and insurance are not fixed, right? So we need to be thinking also about what is variable going into the future and I don’t know markets where taxes are going down. So our taxes are going up, my home owner’s insurance has gone up overtime.

So you know, hopefully, we have income increases that will go up overtime but we’re not always seeing that for pharmacists. So we need to be thinking about other expenses that could rise overtime and it’s not just in this moment, what’s the percentage of my take home pay that I am going to allocate to my home but how might that go up overtime as taxes increases, an insurance increases and then obviously, there’s other things to consider like HOA fees or upkeep or maintenance of the property.

All types of things that again, home investment is a great thing but we want to make sure that we are entering into that with financial confidence.

[0:22:59.3] TU2: Absolutely and that is a really good point. I mean so let’s say, we obviously fixed the rating, we fixed the payments in for principle and interest on the note but there is that variable nature of taxes and insurance and depending on what part of the country you live in, insurance can move quite a bit. If you are in Southern Texas or Florida, taxes or insurance can be a wild card sometimes.

But I would say this, I mean, I think it’s important that you check on insurance maybe every year, right? Whether it is your auto insurance and the home owners, just see what’s out there because there is new carriers coming to market and sometimes they will give you discounts for your policies and one other thing too that I see banks and mortgage companies require a certain amount of coverage.

That way your house is covered if it were to burn down or tornado damage or whatever it might be but one thing I do see, sometimes people overcommit on personal property. So make sure your insuring what you need. If you have a lot of personal property, clearly you can make sure you have the coverage but lenders don’t care about that. You could put it to zero and that wouldn’t be an issue for a lender.

So if you are really trying to reduce your cost, that’s one way to do it too is look at like the personal property terms in your insurance policy and your house insurance policy.

[0:24:15.0] TU1: That is a great call Tony. I would encourage folks if they haven’t done this in a while, you mentioned kind of looking at this regularly and even just pulling out the policy and looking at the line items, making sure you understand what those things are and I went through this recently. One of the challenges out there if you are trying to shop around policies is getting the apples-to-apples comparison.

So what I found to be helpful was as I was getting policy quotes, I basically provided the coverage amounts based on my current policy and what the categories were to try to get as close of a comparison as I possibly could and then that’s also true on auto insurance as you are looking at different carriers and options but great suggestion, a reminder to make sure that we’re taking a fresh look at that over time.

[0:24:54.9] TU2: Yeah and I think that could help maybe to some degree alleviate some of that movement but clearly over time insurance costs are going to go up, especially with inflation. You know that’s affecting insurance premiums because it costs more to replace property, right? So that’s going to affect the cost of insurance. Property taxes, you know with property values going up overtime, in some states they’re capped, in some states they’re not, right?

So you have – we got to be careful about this too Tim because every place is different but like for example in Florida, you have the homestead exemption and the save our homes cap, which essentially caps how much your tax basis value can go up every year and that really helps preserve the tax that you are paying every year. It can only go up a little bit so it is not a big deal in owner-occupied homes.

Now, if it is not owner-occupied, second home investment property, it’s free lunch basically. You know the county could do whatever it needs to do but every place is a little bit different. Some other states have similar measures and that can help kind of keep in check how much your taxes go up every year and generally taxes are going to rise with the property values increasing.

Now, the flipside is, I remember in ’08 and ’09 when my property values went down, my taxes went down, which is – you know, that was one benefit I guess of that side although I don’t want to relive it but you know that was a – you know, taxes generally go down if the county assesses your property at a lower amount and the other thing that I find too is that many of the municipalities are very, very generous in how they value your property.

Because I will see some of the tax bills and they are coming in well under the market value and their tax estimate is well under. So it may not be the same everywhere in the country and every state has different varying degrees of taxes. So I’ll just say one thing like our audience in New York, taxes are really high there, right? Even in Florida, they’re pretty high but you know I have seen some other states where they’re not bad at all. So just different states can vary on how much those taxes are.

[0:26:50.9] TU1: Good call out Tony that it is different everywhere as well as obviously there is a situation where it may go down and I am coming from the bias of only living in a period I’ve bought my first home in 2009 and you know, didn’t have a home when that happened and events were all fine.

[0:27:06.5] TU2: You bought at a good time.

[0:27:08.0] TU1: Yeah, that’s right. I’ve been spoiled by only living in a state of appreciation on the home side. So I want to shift gears and talk about the pharmacist home loan product that you offer through First Horizon. You know, anytime we do a webinar presentation that includes home buying Tony, this continues to be the most common question, the number of questions I get in terms of volume around the pharmacist home loan product.

I think it is becoming even more timely, it’s always been timely but more timely because as we see a rise in the purchase price, if folks are thinking, “Do I need 20 percent down?” or something traditional like that obviously, that becomes more of a barrier as the market does what it’s doing. So talk to us about the pharmacist home loan product offered by First Horizon. You already mentioned the minimum credit score of 700, who is this for? Who is not for? What does it mean in terms of down payment, purchase price of a home? Give us the overview.

[0:28:02.2] TU2: So as we discussed, 700 is that minimum credit score. You know clearly, you have to be a licensed pharmacist. We couldn’t give it to just anybody. You know, some of the attributes of the product is you just don’t have to put much down and if you are a first-time home buyer, you are looking at putting 3 percent down. You’re eligible to put 3 percent down. If you have owned before, you only have to put 5 percent down.

There is no mortgage insurance, so that is a really big driver to benefit as you have no MI and I find that with 5 percent down, the rates are every bit as good as someone came to me that was not a pharmacist for 20 percent down and sometimes better actually, an eighth better. So you get it sometimes a little bit better rate as well and the waiver of the PMI is a big thing. There is a loan cap, those ties-wise.

We won’t go above 647, 200 as far as loan size. I have had a lot of pharmacists come to me with purchase prices of like 680 and they put 5 percent down and they’re fine. You know, they are within that guidelines there. So it still gives you a good bandwidth of price but sometimes in more expensive markets like California, it can be tougher sometimes to meet that guideline. We only offer a 30-year fixed on the product.

So it is a 30-year fixed only, which I find is popular and then the other thing that’s a nice feature is there is no reserve requirement. You know, a lot of programs like this require that you have six months reserves for loans for specialist and this one does not have that and that’s a nice thing, no prepayment penalties. So it is a very clean loan. It doesn’t have a lot of concerns about it.

The other thing too is generally with student loans, it will use a lower factor than a normal conventional loan will if you don’t have an income base repayment plan in place already.

[0:29:46.3] TU1: Okay.

[0:29:46.9] TU2: So if we don’t know what your payments are, it will actually use a lower factor than like if we were to get it through Fannie Mae or something to that effect or FHA. That’s another attribute. I’ve noticed though Tim, most of the pharmacists that are applying, we’ve had a lot this year, a lot in the last few years seemed to have a payment in place. There is only a few here and there that don’t.

Yeah, so I find that kind of income base repayment is usually the driver or we just get a letter of what the payments are going to be and that tends to be the best way to handle things because those payments are generally a fraction of the balance now.

[0:30:20.9] TU1: That was my question Tony, you beat me to it especially because we’re still in this Federal administrative forbearance where there’s been a price on Federal loan payments now for over two years that’s going to continue through the end of August, if not extended further. So for folks that are listening that I would suspect many are not making payments, is that the case then you kind of projected out what the payment would be?

[0:30:39.9] TU2: Normally that’s the best way if they have an expense, a challenge, you know, if it’s close qualifying otherwise we use a factor of the balances that can sometimes cause the debt ratios to get out of line but sometimes it’s fine. So we use that factor too sometimes if there is not a payment being made but normally we just get that letter projecting what the payments will be and I found that that’s normally what we see.

But most people that come to us are already in that position but not everyone. We do have some that we use the factor onto.

[0:31:08.9] TU1: The most common question I get is, “Hey, tell me more what is the pharmacy home loan product? Why is it different, why might it be an advantage?” you obviously highlighted the points there. The second most common question I get, which you already addressed is, “Hey, that all sounds great but am I going to pay a higher rate?” and you kind of alluded to of course, for everyone’s situation it’s different.

But given the minimum credit threshold of 700 here and depending on the percent down, you know certainly it sounds like it can be competitive, in some cases it could be better. The third question I often get is, “Hey Tim, I am a resident. I am a fellow, I am a pharmacist but I am not yet earning that full income and so is this product eligible for me?” and I think, correct me if I am wrong, I think the answer is yes, you’re a pharmacist but you’re obviously going to run into some potential issues with that percentages because of that lower-income, is that correct?

[0:31:56.7] TU2: Yeah, that is going to be a real challenge to buy that level. You know, we typically because the income level is not where it needs to be unless you’re married and your spouse is earning a good living already and whatever field they might be in and that can change things, you know? I’ve had where the spouses of PA, a physician assistant or an attorney and they’re having a good income stream while the pharmacist is in training that can be.

So everyone is different through our point Tim but yeah, that would be a case where that probably qualifying for a loan, they’d have the ability to do it in that case but normally I find it is better to kind of wait fpr your training and you have that state license where you are going to be practicing in place.

[0:32:37.4] TU1: Tony, knowing that we’re at the time of year, so those that are doing residency fellowship that are wrapping up, you know typically they’re ending end of June, so they’re in this transitionary phase and I suspect many might be listening. So for those that are making the transition out where they’re going to be going from a resident or fellow income to that full pharmacist income where obviously things will improve financially, general rules of thumb in terms of like how many months do we like to see from a lending perspective where they are in that higher income state, so they evaluate potential timing of a home purchase.

[0:33:08.6] TU2: Tim, really month one we could help them. If they have an agreement and they are getting a W2 income, month one, we can help them. So they could close in month one, so right out the gate, you know, in July 1st if that is their first day, they could close. So they’d have the ability to close right away. So this product is not quite as flexible as our doctor products, which we’ll create.

Sometimes they’ll go out like over five months if you have a contract and stuff like that from your start date but –

[0:33:38.1] TU1: Oh really? Before.

[0:33:39.5] TU2: Yeah but it’s a little different program. This one, it will still allow you to close on day one. So they really could get under contract knowing where they’re going to start and be able to close right when they transition in.

[0:33:52.9] TU1: Okay, let me point our listeners too, we’ve got a page. If you go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan, we’ll link to that in the show notes. Again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. We have a lot of information, five steps to getting a home loan. We go into a lot more detail about what we talked about here today and then from there, you can get more information in terms of applying for the pharmacist home loan product and getting in touch with Tony as well.

So Tony, thank you so much. As always, always appreciate the conversation and the expertise that you bring to the YFP community. So thank you so much for joining.

[0:34:28.5] TU2: Thanks for having me Tim. It’s always good hanging out with you here so I enjoyed it. Thank you.

[0:34:32.5] TU1: Thanks Tony.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:34:33.9] TU1: Before we wrap up today’s show, I want to again thank this week’s sponsor of Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, First Horizon, previously IBERIABANK/ First Horizon. We’re glad to have found a solution for pharmacists that are unable to save 20 percent for a down payment on a home. A lot of pharmacists in the community have taken advantage of First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan; which requires a 3 percent down payment for a single-family home or a townhome and has no PMI on a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage.

To learn more about the requirements for First Horizon’s pharmacist home loan and to get started with the preapproval process, you can visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s yourfinancialpharmacist.com/home-loan.

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:35:14.3] TU1: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information of the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analysis expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 257: How This Pharmacist Helps Others Transform and Advance Their Practice to Have a Joyful Career

Posted on by yfpadmin

How This Pharmacist Helps Others Transform and Advance Their Practice to Have a Joyful Career

In today’s episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Dr. Kimber Boothe, PharmD, MHA talks about her career in health systems and the pharmaceutical industry, why she founded the Kimber Boothe Group, how she has monetized her expertise, and the lessons she’s learned from publishing her second book, ‘Pharmfluencers: The Inspiring Stories of Pharmacy Entrepreneurs.’

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Kimber Boothe, PharmD, MHA, is a pharmacist, healthcare leader, and entrepreneur with decades of experience in health systems and the pharmaceutical industry. Kimber is the founder and CEO of the Kimber Boothe Group where she helps pharmacists transform and advance practice to have a joyful engaging career.

She serves by providing coaching, consulting, and courses on:

Leadership & Career Development
Pharmacy Strategy & Innovation/Intrapreneurship
Pharmacy Entrepreneurship

She calls herself a Connector and a Pharmovator® and is the creator and author of several programs and books to guide pharmacists to success. CONNECTOR CORE™ is a program on the Connector Framework™ – Connectorability™, Connector Alignment™, Connector Foundation™, and Connector LIFE™. PHARMOVATION® is a course and system to Accelerate Your Pharmacy Career, Advocate for resources & Advance Pharmacy Practice, and PHARMFLUENCER™ is to Influence, Multiply, and Impact Pharmacy through Entrepreneurship.

Kimber previously led the pharmacy services for a four-hospital community health system where she drove innovative strategy for the pharmacy enterprise as the Chief Pharmacy Officer. She was also the Director of Clinical Pharmacy Services at Yale New Haven Health. She is a graduate of the University of Connecticut School of Pharmacy and Medical University of South Carolina College of Pharmacy, University of Phoenix Masters in Health Administration program, and completed residency training at Virginia Commonwealth University Medical College of Virginia Hospitals.

She is passionate about spending time on the right things to develop others and deliver strategic, focused results. Her motto is Pharmacy Can do More with More™ and her goal is to support the addition of 100 new health system pharmacy positions annually.

She is the recipient of the Connecticut Society of Health System Pharmacists Meritorious Achievement Award and her prior organization has been recognized with the Kentucky Society of Health System Pharmacists Innovative Health-System Pharmacy Practice Award.

Episode Summary

There are more methods to monetize your knowledge and expertise in the pharmacy industry than you think. All you have to do is pick one. In this episode, discussing the various options and sharing her personal pharmacy path from clinical roles to leadership and consulting is Dr. Kimber Boothe. Not only is Dr. Boothe the author of two books, Pharmovation: Advocate for Resources, Advance Pharmacy Practice, & Accelerate Your Pharmacy Career and Pharmfluencers: The Inspiring Stories of Pharmacy Entrepreneurs, but she’s also the founder of the Kimber Boothe Group, where she guides pharmacists towards a joyful, engaging, and lucrative career. Listeners will hear Dr. Boothe break down the differences between intrapreneurship and entrepreneurship and her experience with each. We discover the purpose behind her mission, learn about her personal growth goals as she moves from a solopreneur to filling staff positions and hear her thoughts on the importance of intentional career development. We also delve into the power of mindset with Dr. Boothe, who shares some actionable tips for shaping a positive mindset. Dr. Boothe also takes a moment to discuss the levels of relationships, types of coaching available to you as a pharmacist, and why she believes coaching is so important.

Key Points From This Episode

Dr. Boothe’s career path in pharmacy, from clinical roles to leadership and consulting.
Defining intrapreneurship versus entrepreneurship.
The pros of allowing for intrapreneurship within an organization.
Why Dr. Boothe believes pharmacy can do more with more.
The genesis of The Kimber Boothe Group and the problems it aims to solve.
Dr. Boothe’s growth goals.
The importance of being intentional about career development.
The purpose of Dr. Boothe’s book, Pharmfluencers, and the information it contains.
Ways to monetize your knowledge and expertise in the pharmacy industry.
The power of mindset and tips for shaping a positive mindset.
The four levels of relationships and why Dr. Boothe believes having a coach is critical.
Dr. Boothe’s transition from being a solopreneur to hiring and filling positions.

Highlights

“Intrapreneurship is the opportunity to be innovative at work within the safety and support of an organization. It’s basically that ability to do innovative things, but within that support where you have additional financial support. You don’t have the risk of having your own business.” — Kimber Boothe, PharmD, MHA [0:04:47]

“I’m really pro pharmacy. I want to advance the profession, whether it is through intrapreneurship or with entrepreneurs.” — Kimber Boothe, PharmD, MHA [0:27:51]

“Once you read [Pharmafluencers], you’re inspired. You can think through and find your ikigai, which is your passion and purpose, and tie that to something that can be monetized.” — Kimber Boothe, PharmD, MHA [0:31:59]

“Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. There’s not a thing to be waited for. It is a thing to be achieved.” — Kimber Boothe, PharmD, MHA [0:37:16]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here. Thank you for listening to the YFP podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I had the chance to welcome pharmacy leader, influencer, and entrepreneur Dr. Kimber Boothe, to talk about her career in health systems in the pharmaceutical industry, why she founded the Kimber Boothe Group, where she helps pharmacists transform and advance practice to have a joyful, engaging career, how she has been able to monetize her expertise and the lessons that she learned from publishing her second book, Pharmfluencer: The Inspiring Stories of Pharmacy Entrepreneurs.

Before we hear from today’s sponsor and then jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 households in 40-plus states. YFP Planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning, financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacies achieve financial freedom. Okay, let’s hear from today’s sponsor, and then we’ll jump into my interview with Kimber Boothe.

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[INTERVIEW]

[00:02:10] TU: Kimber. Welcome to the show.

[00:02:12] KB: Thank you, Tim. It’s great to be here.

[00:02:14] TU: So excited to have the opportunity to talk with you. Before we do a deep dive into the work that you’re doing today and much of your entrepreneurial journey as of late, talk to us about the path of your work in the pharmacy. Where that began, your interest in the profession as well as your career journey as a clinical specialist in the industry, and then as a health system leader?

[00:02:35] KB: Thank you, Tim. Well, I just, first of all, want to say that I do love our profession of pharmacy and I think, I want to thank you for everything you’re doing to support our profession’s financial health and support our innovation. I have had a wonderful career in pharmacy, starting mostly in hospitals and health systems and various clinical roles and as a cardiology specialist, moving up to leadership roles, ultimately into being assistant director, chief pharmacy officer for Community Health System, as well as being a director, system director of clinical services for an academic health system.

I also did spend ten years in the Pharma industry, so I had that experience, which I actually do owe a lot of my innovation and business savvy to the development I had in the Pharma industry where I did various roles in the medical affairs department. But was definitely drawn back to health systems, to what I referred to these days as my entrepreneurship activities, where I was promoting innovative practice, and bold strategic planning to advance pharmacy within an organization such as health systems.

[00:03:46] TU: Kim, I want to dive a little bit deeper on that, because I think there’s a lot of glorification that’s going on in entrepreneurship right now. We use that term a lot, and I think sometimes that can be interpreted as being synonymous with your own business or starting your own business, but entrepreneurship is a term where we’re starting to see grow, and I’m grateful for that. I think in the profession that term, I actually like a little bit more because I think it’s something that everyone can resonate with regardless of their role and the impact that they can have on the profession. So define for a moment what you mean by entrepreneurship and obviously, I think that’s something that we’re seeing. Lots of folks have opportunities within the profession that could be independent of owning their own business, right?

[00:04:26] KB: Absolutely. At the end of the day, entrepreneurship is wonderful. I know we’ll probably talk more about that as well, later on in this conversation, as I am now, what I like to call a full-time entrepreneur. But at the end of the day, most people are not going to be entrepreneurs, when you look at our total profession, 350,000 pharmacists in the US. intrapreneurship is that opportunity to be innovative at work within the safety and support of an organization. It is referred sometimes to as an entrepreneur on the job, or an entrepreneur in an organization. It’s basically that ability to do innovative things, but within that support where you have additional financial support, you don’t have the risk of having your own business.

That company is taking the risk, but there’s definitely some challenges because I know there are some organizations that are not open to these innovative ideas and you may not be able to implement something that you’re trying to do. But definitely the most successful organizations out there, whether they’re in health care or external to health care, those that allow for intrapreneurship’ to occur within their organization are more successful. Allowing the employees, team members to come up with ideas, allowing them time to work on those ideas while in the organization, helps their bottom line, helps them to be more successful, and ultimately to create more revenue for the company.

[00:06:00] TU: Yeah. I think that’s a great point. I mean, yes, it increases the bottom line increases of revenue, hopefully, pushes the innovation. I would argue also for the employee having that autonomy, having that space for creativity also probably ties to things like satisfaction in the workplace and retention and obviously can have a positive impact for employers as well, if they’re able to create that space to allow for entrepreneurship. Kimber, your motto is, “Pharmacy can do more with more with more.” What do you mean by that?

[00:06:30] KB: Well, I have to admit that definitely is my motto. Well, there is definitely times that we need to find efficiencies. I get very upset when I hear that phrase, do more with less. Yes, again, there’s times we can find efficiencies, use technology and be able to do more, but what I’ve seen in our profession is that we are underutilized and under-resourced for all of the massive amounts of unmet medication and health-related needs out there.

When I actually return to health systems after my ten years in PharmOn, I realized that the health system I was working at had grown immensely in terms of the number of patients, the number of services being provided, but the pharmacy team had really not grown in the same ratio. What I recognize is that we could be doing so much more, but we only had enough resources to focus on the most acute problems and whether that was on the acute care hospital side or even in the amateurish space where we had very few ambulatory pharmacists helping patients on an ongoing basis.

I came up with that motto and it’s definitely stuck with me and it’s really my mission and really why I left my intrapreneurship role to do entrepreneurship because my goal is to help create 100 new positions every year in pharmacy. When I think about some of the concerns that there is too many pharmacy students graduating, or when I look at the data and you really look at the unmet needs of complex medications, aging populations, clinician, physician shortages, I see a huge need for pharmacists.

Well, I don’t know the exact number of pharmacists we need. We definitely need more pharmacists practicing, but in different places than we are today, and also with different and better reimbursement models that value our overall benefit to health care and what I often referred to as the quadruple aim that we can help with improving the quality of care, we can improve the patient experience, we can improve provider satisfaction, and ultimately reduce costs by having more pharmacy team members.

The last thing I’ll say about it is, I often do the reason I say pharmacy can do more, not just pharmacists, is I definitely see a huge value of our pharmacy technician team members and have definitely advocate in for increasing their roles and as part of a true career for them, as well as, of course, integrating our students and optimizing more roles or creating more resonant positions. That’s why I often say pharmacy can do more with more, not just pharmacists.

[00:09:21] TU: Yeah. I love Kimber, your vision and an abundance mindset of creating new positions, right? 100 new positions in pharmacy each year. I wish we would see that adoption at a greater level among our national organizations and others because I think it really gets out of the conversation of, we only have so many jobs in this many graduates. What do we do? How do we increase the pie, right? How do we increase the pie and the opportunities that are out there? Which require, what we were just talking about a moment ago, that culture and spirit of intrapreneurship and entrepreneurship. So talk to us about the genesis of The Kimber Boothe Group. Your business and we’ll talk more about products and services here in a moment. But The Kimber Boothe Group, what problems or challenges did you face? What were you trying to remedy with this business?

[00:10:04] KB: Well, it’s interesting. When I first started the business really eight years ago, definitely as a side hustle, maybe many of your listeners are doing or considering doing. So at the time, actually when I started, I was actually still in Pharma at that time, and definitely, I had had multiple business ideas that all ended up in a file cabinet. So there was definitely a bug that I had around entrepreneurship but hadn’t found the right fit for me until I actually came across this thought leader, influencer model of an expert where it took away some of what I saw as barriers to a business like physical space products. It became about, what are you good at? What do people come to you for? What are you the expert in? How can you monetize that knowledge by sharing it with other people and helping them to grow, and becoming that multiplier to spread?

When I came across this expert’s model, that’s when I decided actually to create my business. I came up with a list of the things again that people naturally came to me for, the things that I was drawn to learning more about. It was definitely a lot about strategic planning, project management, and career development were the three main areas, both career development in terms of your professional development, but also being more assertive about your career trajectory and path. So that’s how I started. It was very general. I started to do some things on the side, some coaching.

I always to refer back to my first coaching client was an opera-singing soccer mom who just wanted some help to get back into opera singing and into the stage where she had to focus on her family for so long. We worked through that and she got on stage. So she was my first coaching client. From there it was a few years later that I actually went to the Medipreneurs Conference, which is an event that a few pharmacists had created, Anna Garrett, Sue Paul and Michelle Fritsch created that event. When I went to that event, I realized there that my passion is pharmacy, and that is where I had had definitely some success with doing some intrapreneurship business plans, justifying more positions.

I was being asked to speak by various organizations, conferences. I said, “Why am I trying to do this business very broad? I should be niching down or focusing my target to pharmacy.” Because I don’t mind helping soccer moms and things like that, but really, my passion is pharmacy. What I really wanted to do and connect those dots together was really focusing on helping the pharmacy profession to advance through sharing, again, similar topics. Strategic planning, project management, and career development were definitely a big part of that.

Back then, is when I created my Pharmovation course, which then turned into my Pharmovation book and the pharmovation consulting that I do for health systems which is where I spend most of my time these days, is actually helping organizations to write strategic plans, write those business plans that actually justify those additional positions.

[00:13:33] TU: For folks that are interested in learning more about what Kimber had shared of the influencer expert business model. She talks about it in her book, Pharmfluencers: The Inspiring Stories of Pharmacy Entrepreneurs. So more information there, I think that’s a great way for pharmacists to think about, especially what Kimber, or when I think about your career journey and the expertise that you have. I suspect many of the relationships in the network that you have, it makes a whole lot of sense that you’re doing some of that consulting.

If I heard you correctly you’re doing both on the business to business side, you’re consulting with health systems and organizations, helping them on a strategy leadership level, but then also you have a suite of services that are really on the business to consumer the B2C side for the individual being the courses, the coaching and the books. Is that correct?

[00:14:19] KB: Exactly, yes. I have what I call my product matrix of what I’m trying to support people with. Yeah, there’s definitely the consulting arm that focuses on the businesses themselves. I’m usually paid by director of pharmacy, usually. Then others, whether it’s individual coaching online courses or membership programs where people have opportunities for all of us to connect in a smaller group coaching atmosphere, both on the entrepreneurship side and the entrepreneurship side.

[00:14:53] TU: Could you break down a little bit further, Kim? You said you spent a vast majority of your time in consulting with the health system, roughly speaking certainly not share individual numbers, but roughly speaking on time spent or revenue of the business, if we think about this as a pie chart with your consulting to organizations, and then some of the coaching and the coursework that you’re doing with individuals or smaller groups as well as the books or other products. How would you break that down in terms of the different products and services that are within your business?

[00:15:21] KB: Yeah. That’s a very good question in terms of that breakdown and what it is now and what I wanted to be, I’ll share here. So right now it is more 90% of my time and 90% of my revenue is coming from consulting. That is that work and the other 10% is coming from the membership’s one-on-one coaching and other things like the summit programs that I’ve done. So that 90/10 a ratio, I’m definitely wanting to change that a little bit. I’m doing things like I have a full-time assistant and we’re trying to grow the online business through the membership basically, just because my time is limited.

If I want to be able to have more impact and reach more people, it’s not going to be through my one-on-one consulting. So I think the goal would be to grow that about to 40% of the business, 50 to 60% maintaining on the consulting side because I still think that’s vital for me. Having that integrated involvement with organizations is really helpful for me to grow and for me to really have the biggest impact, but I also know again, to reach more people and to get other people to write their own business plans so that we can create even more than 100 positions a year is definitely how I want to grow.

Again, moving towards more of a, almost a 50/50, but in this current year, my goal is to get to at least 80/20. So each year I have a goal to move that needle about 10%. Again, some of that is through growing my group membership that I have called the Connector Leadership Circle. Again that I can help more people at once and I can through, one-on-one coaching conversations or one to business consulting. I will share my other goal with growing is to add to my team. So I’m definitely talking with folks about doing some consulting with me, so I could potentially take on more consulting clients if I had a team. Right now it is just a team of one, right now.

While I have been asked by other consulting companies to become part of their firms, I’ve chosen to stay on my own, because of the flexibility, so I could focus on what I want with this ratio of services. Again, I recognize that organizations do need help. When I’m full on my consulting or my coaching clients and I can’t take anymore, well, how can I serve more? That would be adding to my team and them coming under the Kimber Boothe Group to do the consulting with me and as well as potentially some additional coaches.

I do recognize that people do come to me for my knowledge, but there’s a lot of people who have learned from me over the years and can teach and do what I’m doing. So it doesn’t have to be just about me. I think the last thing I’ll just share with that is when it comes to having a business, my current business coach, which of course I’ve always recommended having a coach throughout my career. I’ve either paid for myself or advocated through my organizations to have a coach. My current coach is definitely very focused business. What they say in that program, which is, it’s called Action Coach, and they follow very organized format for business owners, but their definition of a business owner is owning a business that can operate independently of you.

I definitely am not there yet, and I don’t know that I’ll ever want it to be that way. But if I want to leave a long-lasting legacy that is why I am exploring with my coach. What are these ways through adding to my consulting team or adding additional coaches, creating these membership programs where I can reach more people and it can become a little more independent. So that is my goal. I don’t think I ever started that way, though. I mean, honestly, that definition and that thought process is still pretty new, because when I did think of this thought leader model and when I did even think about what to call my business.

I called it my name because a lot of the people I was learning from back then, that’s what they did and then their products, so I brand my products and services and trademark them, but the business itself was me, but in this new mindset it won’t be me in the future at some point or it definitely will be a team. That is why it says group, not just Kimber Boothe, so that is part of that. So thanks for letting me share those thoughts.

[00:20:07] TU: No, I’m glad you did, because, because one of the things I always encourage folks as they have an idea that they’re passionate about. They want to pursue or they say, “I want to start my own business.” One of the things I’ll ask and encourage them is, what’s the goal? What do you want this to look like? What is the vision of that product or that service? But if we fast forward 20 to 30 to 40 years, is this a lifestyle business? Are you a solo entrepreneur? Do you envision a model where, as you mentioned, Kimber, by definition of sounds what the action coach program does that this can operate without you and therefore live on without you, which makes a whole lot of sense when you talk about this vision of really impacting and leaving a dent in the profession and growing positions, like scalability makes a whole lot of sense, right? Because there goes the impact that you can have and that could mean beyond your career that could mean time off that you have, but that other folks are helping to advance that mission.

That’s part of a couple of reasons why I wanted to dig in a little bit of behind the curtain of the business is, one I suspect that you may have many listed units and I am really interested in learning more about what Kimber is doing. You can find all this at kimberboothe.com. We’ll link to that in the show notes. Number two, is that I don’t think we often share enough of among pharmacy entrepreneurs of what is the actual bones of the business look like today and where do we want it to go?

I think that’s so helpful, because for many people that are at the different phases of, hey, I’ve got an idea, or it’s a side hustle, or I’m actually starting to validate an idea and grow it and scale it. Being able to hear, even if someone isn’t thinking about a model that fits necessarily within the realm of what you’re doing, I think it’s helpful to hear other models that exist, how those businesses are monetized. What are some of the challenges and where do they envision the growth going in the future? So my follow up question with that in mind, Kimber, is as you have this business that has both a, B2B, so business to business, working with health system organizations, consulting as well as a, B2C, where you’re doing individual types of coaching and programs and books, do you see synergy between the two?

As you talk about your services, I could see where you’re consulting with an organization, and leaders within that organization may say, “Hey, I want some coaching or services individually for me, or vice versa.” Where individuals are engaging with your products, as an individual, as a consumer, and they say, “Hey, we really would love to have Kimber be a part of our organization.” Do you see some of that crossover that’s happening?

[00:22:29] KB: Yes, definitely. There’s crossover on the B2B and the B2C where, yeah, I think both ways. Definitely where I’ve been brought in as a consultant and then they say, “Oh I want to join your membership to have this.” You can finish your consulting project, but now I want to stay involved either themselves or they want it for their team members. So they’ll have them join the membership or attend my summits, buy my books. Also on the other side definitely, I’ve worked with people as one-on-one coaches, and then they say, “Oh this is great. We’ve gotten this far, but it would really help if you can come in and work with us directly. So I’m going to suggest you be a consultant.” I definitely have started, I do plan to look into this further is also trying to get these organizations as part of a bulk purchase. So can they, as part of their professional development of their team members, they pay for.

[00:23:33] TU: Yes.

[00:23:33] KB: Rather than many times the individual is paying for some of my services and products with the health system or pharmacy pay for their members to go. I have group rates, again that I’ve introduced to a few health systems, but want to offer that more broadly where if they have ten people join one of my courses or join the membership, they get ten, 20% off, because they have paid for it. Then the individual has gotten that support and recognition from the organization, so absolutely a lot of synergy there.

[00:24:13] TU: I love that, Kimber. I think you and I maybe talked about this offline while ago as we share some previous career paths and links in the health system pharmacy leadership role. I think that area is so right for ongoing coaching development at the pharmacy director and management level of folks that have found themselves in those roles through extensive training and obviously lots of professional development that got them there. If I’m a director of pharmacy, Chief Pharmacy Officer, I want to not only recruit and retain that top talent, but I want them to grow in their awareness of what is possible. We’ll talk in a moment here about mindset. I certainly see value that can happen as you’re working with organizations also doing some individual coaching and consulting as well, so glad to hear that you’re exploring that direction.

[00:25:03] KB: I think. Well, I’ll just add to that, Tim, briefly. Obviously, you’ve focused a lot on the health system pharmacy leadership with the residency programs. It is great when people know they wanted to go into leadership and they tend to focus on that, but what I’ve definitely seen in pharmacy is a lot of times people are appropriate. They’re very focused on their clinical knowledge. Then they get tapped for leadership positions or they have an interest. It is surprising to me when I ask a group of pharmacists, “Who has a professional development plan?” And maybe five to 10% of the people will raise their hand. I’ve been in audiences where nobody has raised their hands.

Sometimes we finish school and then we’re doing continuing education, but we’re not being strategic about our career development. So for me, it’s all about being strategic, not just in the business plans, but being strategic about your career and those are a lot of the folks that I help in addition to the health system, pharmacy leadership, residency training folks who knew that they wanted to go into leadership. It’s all of the other team members who weren’t as interested, but because they’re strong clinicians, they do get tacked and there’s a lot of a need and opportunity there for ongoing support.

[00:26:22] TU: You’re giving me flashbacks, Kimber of I think everyone who’s gone through residency can relate to the days. It was resi track back in the day when I completed — I think it’s an out form academic, but just the extensive evaluation and goal setting and professional development that happens during that training year. Then you just enter into the wild, wild West. That’s a common thing you hear among folks of that transition is very stark from development and goal setting and evaluation that’s very rigorous to like it becomes much more self-initiated unless you’ve got a supervisor that is very, very passionate about that. So, great reminder for folks that have gone through that training or have not, I think of how important it is to be intentional as we think about the professional development piece.

Kimber, your latest book, Pharmfluencers: The Inspiring Story of Pharmacy Entrepreneurs. Folks can find that book available on Amazon. You can also go to our kimberboothe.com to get more information. One of things you say in the intro is, “I know far too many pharmacists who are experiencing burnout from working within the health care industry who find themselves unable to achieve the level of financial freedom they want, who believe that they can do more than what they’re allowed within the confines of their job.” For those that hear that, that are listening and say, yes, that’s me. What advice would you have for them?

[00:27:43] KB: Well, definitely get the book. The reason I chose to do to get this book together is again, I’m really pro pharmacy. So I want to advance the profession, whether it is through intrapreneurship or with entrepreneurs. So this book, what’s so cool about it, is it is 34 pharmacist entrepreneurs and their inspiring stories of how they have taken their passions, their knowledge, such as yourself as you are featured in this book to share that of how they have created a business to monetize their knowledge and have the impact that they desire.

Some people are doing it, definitely there’s people in the book that are doing it as a side hustle. Others that have been able to transition to it full time like you and I. It is just my way of helping to motivate people to know that they can do this again, either on the side or as a full-time career. Again, I don’t think this is the only path, by all means, I do see lots of opportunity in pharmacy. I do think within our organizations we need to be innovative about it, but I do love entrepreneurship. It’s been a wonderful experience for me in terms of being able to be having some freedom and the creativity to design a business that in some cases has more flexibility than a job.

It does have more risks sometimes. We know there’s some data that shows that small businesses don’t succeed. Again, a lot of what this book focuses on is this expert’s model or the that’s why it’s the pharmacist influencers. So in this book, I really focus on what I said about my business. It’s a slightly easier business model than others that have lots of infrastructure, but what we do talk about in the book and why I think people who are interested in or just want to understand more about businesses is getting the book, reading the stories to be inspired.

There is access to a chapter that talks about the outline of the Pharmfluencer business model, which will walk through some of the basics of starting a business and understanding some of those aspects of why would you start a business? What type of topics do you want to focus on? Definitely we go into what I’ve summarized as the 14 common methods to monetize your knowledge. This is where somebody who, and we definitely have a lot of different entrepreneurs out there like yourself who focus on an area. We have the Prednisone Pharmacists, we have the Fertility Pharmacists, the Public Health Pharmacists, we have all sorts of people who are diving deep in areas to get and share their knowledge, but also being able to monetize that.

Those 14 methods range from creating apps and tools, writing books or e-books, creating online courses, doing coaching one-on-one or group, consulting, clinical services, which is a lot of what I would say when we think about some of the entrepreneurship in pharmacy these days doing MTMs, doing fee for service, clinical services. That’s still an awesome method, but that’s not the only way to monetize your knowledge. You can do live seminars, create masterminds, memberships, sell to smaller PDFs. You could be physical products like Dr. Megan who is the Prednisone Pharmacist, she has a supplement for people on prednisone.

You can do speaking and that could be potentially a moneymaker. It’s definitely also a marketing tool. You can also sell webinars and even do virtual summits these days, which have become important. So those are the 14 ways that I think of to monetize your knowledge that we talk about in the book and then each of the 34 pharmfluencers shares what their journey is and what they’re doing to monetize their knowledge.

You only have to pick one to start. So once you read the book, you’re inspired, you can think through and find your ikigai, which is your passion and purpose, and tie that to something that can be monetized and you pick a method to monetize. I honestly did not start with books. Books are not necessarily my favorite thing to do. So definitely the coaching was where I started doing that one-on-one coaching that actually has probably the lowest barrier to entry in terms of ease for supporting people, right away. Then I moved on to creating the online courses and selling those. Then as you heard about some of the other methods that I am using.

[00:32:38] TU: That’s what I loved about the book, Kimber, is that the 14 ways and ideas that folks can have, the buckets, if you will, of how to monetize. The work that they’re doing, followed up with over 30 different pharmacists’ entrepreneurs and stories. I think the passion we share for featuring pharmacist entrepreneurs and stories is the desire that we, I see among pharmacists today, I’m interested in using my pharmacy degree and maybe what we call a nontraditional way. I don’t know exactly where to go and how to get started. I always say as we share more of these stories like we’re sharing yours here today.

Maybe for some folks, they’re going to say, “Hey, I hear what Kimber is doing. I want to do something like that, or it sparks an idea.” But more than anything, it’s that idea creation and Genesis and just opening up the door of I had no idea. There’s all these pharmacists that are out there that all graduated with a pharmacy degree, and now they’re doing 34 different things in the case of the individuals that are featured in the book. So I think it helps folks to spark an idea, perhaps to get them thinking a different way, but it’s tangible, right? I think often you read about, “Hey, how can you monetize your income or side hustle or this or that?”

Often folks are like, “Hey, that’s exciting, but I don’t really know where to get started.” That’s where the stories, that’s where examples of other pharmacists that are doing certain things and folks can say, “Oh, I’m a pharmacist in that setting, this is give me idea of how I might also be able to monetize the work that I’m doing or at least one place to get started.” So really well done, I think the introduction was brilliant the way that you wrote that. Then covering the business model the Pharmfluencer business models you mentioned, and then followed up with over 30 different pharmacists, entrepreneurs that are featured.

One of the things that you talk about in the book, and I want to dive a little bit deeper here as it relates to your own journey, as well as maybe what you saw as a theme or thread among those that were featured is the concept of the power of mindset. This has come up as a recurring theme of yes on this show. I want to just hear from you, Kimber, as you put together these 30-plus stories. Tell us more about the theme that you saw around mindset and why it was so influential in their own businesses and journeys.

[00:34:48] KB: Absolutely. It’s so important and I’m going to forget some of the great quotes on this topic, but what you think is what’s going to come to fruition, and it’s so important both with when we’re working as well as if we’re thinking about being an entrepreneur, because it’s it definitely can be very scary and it’s important that we think positive, we think boldly. Definitely, you mentioned abundance, a mindset before. That’s where we need to be in this a blue ocean mentality rather than read ocean. There’s a book about that where, again, there are so many needs and opportunities and there is space and need for everybody. We need to find that versus thinking that we’re all fighting for that same piece of the pie and it’s more of that restriction.

I focus on it here in the book. Definitely when I’m coaching people as well as in my courses, how important that is. I always try to support developing that and focusing on having a positive mindset and a critical way to develop that mindset is surrounding yourself with like-minded people. It’s important when you’re considering this journey that you do talk to people who have been there and done it, because it’s easy. I definitely experience this in my family. When you start talking about entrepreneurship and it’s like, oh, you’re going to behave your, you’re nice solid pharmacist paycheck to do something that’s this risky. Really, so you want to do that? It’s being around with other people.

When I was actually at a retreat and everybody’s like, well, Kimber, you need to give your notice. You need to do this now. As soon as you get back from this retreat give your notice. I’m like well, well, let me – I was, I knew I was going to leave within a couple of years, and I didn’t want to leave right then, because it was pharmacists month, but soon after that, I did make the decision, and it was surrounding myself with these like-minded folks that helped me with my mindset about this, that I would be successful and to think about it. I do think one of the quotes I do have in the book is that it did say that, “Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. There’s not a thing to be waited for. It is a thing to be achieved.”

I think those are quotes and mantras that I try to think about and repeat that helped me with my mindset as well as, like I said, surrounded myself with these wonderful pharmfluencers like yourself to motivate me as well as sometimes commiserate. We can have that positive mindset, but that doesn’t mean that bad things won’t happen. It’s more about how we approach it and how we react to it. That is the key part of the mindset and not just having that grit and resilience to move through any troubles that come up.

[00:38:03] TU: Yeah. Kimber, there’s something really powerful you said in the introduction that I think gives people a sneak peek into your mindset and the motivation behind your work. That was when you said, there’s something empowering about taking hold of one’s life and sharing that narrative with the world. I think for folks that have an idea and want to create something, you want to do something. Don’t underestimate the power that can come from that shift in mindset when you’re creating, your putting yourself out there. Yes, there’s fear. Yes, there’s risk that’s involved, but that’s a beautiful thing. When you start to see that you’re producing something that’s having a positive impact in other people’s lives.

Kimber, I have a follow up on that. In addition to surround yourself with like-minded people, so important and there’s lots of different ways that folks can do that. You’ve created community that helps that as well. Are there one or two other things that you have found either personally or in coaching others, thinking of things can be morning routines or just a voracious hunger to be reading and learning, but are there one or two themes that you have found individually or in coaching others that really help in this shaping up mindset?

[00:39:11] KB: Yes. I mean, a lot of the things you mentioned are definitely important. That’s why I in the book I know I refer to it as having your inner circle and your network, so that is around that creating those connections. I do think that continuous development is an important part of that. Having a professional development plan that not only includes your subject matter expertize, but now also aspects of entrepreneurship. You don’t have to learn and know every aspect of it, because you can definitely hire and pay other people to do certain things. But expanding your development so that you are considering learning, right? This is now your business. You do need to spend some extra time and investment in that.

Definitely having a coach I would say is probably the most important thing I have done for mindset through the years. Again, whether I had what I used to maybe refer to as an executive coach, maybe at one point a career coach and then more of an executive coach when I was in leadership positions. Now having a business coach, I think having a coach is critical. There’s four levels that I actually think about in terms of relationships. The first one is just networking. You’re like level one relationship building is like networking.

Everybody should have a networking plan and be strategic about it. Then people should have a mentor, somebody that’s more that you do meet with that’s within an area that’s related to your development. People should have a sponsor if they’re in an organization, so that’s the third level. A sponsor differs from a mentor usually, because they’re in a position of power. They can sponsor and advocate for you when certain positions come up. Then the fourth level of that relationship area that is critical is coaching.

Some of the training I’ve done on coaching calls your coach, your paid best friend, but it is somebody who will challenge you beyond what you would maybe challenge yourself to do, but also see things in you that you may suppress or not be willing to acknowledge and bring out and move you through your fears to success. I would say again, definitely just having that inner circle related to your networking and your mentors doing your development, but then ultimately having a coach has been what’s been so important for me with my mindset.

[00:41:53] TU: Yeah. Well said. I would agree with that too. It took me a while to get around to the importance of making that investment about time and money, but it’s so important. I would just echo everything you said in terms of when I think about the impact that my coach has had on my overall mindset and it’s not just in those coaching sessions, right? I think when done well and when you are ready for the coaching, it’s the constant thought and dialog that’s going on, could be internally, it could be after coaching session, my wife Jess and I or a friend we’re digesting and following up on things, but it’s a continuous process that’s ongoing and it’s really, really fun to think about, what’s the next level? What’s the next level? Where else can I continue to grow and stretch myself? Often that means perhaps going into some areas that are uncomfortable as well.

[00:42:40] KB: It’s sometimes what my coach has also done is, in a way the opposite. It’s also a matter of making sure I do have balance and that’s it is a business. There’s a reason like you said, about what you talk to your clients about is, what is your goal here? Well, it’s not in most cases to work more hours than you are working at the pharmacy, but it is for some more freedom and maybe that’s not something that you expect maybe in your first few years of business.

I know my coach also helps me with that to be realistic as well in terms of, am I prioritizing the most critical things and ensuring that I don’t burn out or put too many things on my plate. Or also definitely challenge me to make sure I’m outsourcing things, if it is definitely things that I can delegate. Definitely thinking new and balancing comes from a great coach.

[00:43:35] TU: Speaking of outsourcing, you talk about in the book that your biggest learning curve was being the transition from a solopreneur to hiring and filling positions, which I was surprised at, given your background in managing and leading teams. I would assume very, very comfortable with delegation, which may not always be the case for four folks. So talk to us more about why this was such a steep learning curve for you?

[00:43:58] KB: It is a good question. I still to this day, I think, I still have some trouble with it. I don’t know why, right? Like you said, I’ve hired hundreds of people. I’ve had teams of hundreds of people under me through a Matrix organization. It was — when you’re using your own money, I guess, and I guess like in some people, like bootstrapping, I didn’t take loans, the expenses for those first few years as a side hustle, I was losing money. Technically based on the investments I was making in my education, the website, some things, because it was on the side, I wasn’t bringing in a profit. So you think hiring is just going to mean more expense. But at the end of the day, and as I’ve learned from more entrepreneurs, the faster, and you can scale up through working with others that will usually get you to the finish line faster to become more profitable.

I did have trouble seeing that early on. Then interestingly, even when I was hiring it was easier definitely to hire for specific tasks. If I needed a graphic designer, I needed a video editor. Those things seemed easier to hire for. Then I definitely had a mindset around my assistant, again where I was doing things myself and then hiring an assistant for 10 hours a week or 20 hours a week. It wasn’t until I did take a course actually on virtual assistants. It’s like, how can you scale yourself, right? Then put yourself as the CEO. Literally, that’s what they called this course that I took.

It was like, you’re the CEO of your business. You would not be the ones posting certain things or you would not be the one to create a web page. That would be somebody else if you were the true CEO of your business and thinking through that and moving to actually hiring somebody full time where just like I do talk about in our profession, you should be practicing at the top of your license. You should do the same in your business. Unless it’s something you absolutely are uniquely qualified, and only you can do it then you should be able to delegate or outsource that.

It is interesting where I feel like I still was not doing a great job was even on the hiring process. I was trying to work and wanted to just hire different agencies, who would get me an assistant. I’m like, I have hired lots of people, right? Why haven’t I converted to do that myself? So once I switched and did that and I actually hired myself and same thing I’m doing now with looking for subcontractor consultants is I can do the interview the same way I did before. I don’t know why I was treating it differently. There are definitely a lot of things that should crossover from intrapreneurship to entrepreneurship that for whatever reason I had a mental block about, but that is cleared now and moving more focus into making sure that it is a true business. I’m hiring a team just like I would have done when I was the chief pharmacy officer.

[00:47:21] TU: Great stuff, Kimber. I think that first one is very difficult. I think as time goes on it becomes a little bit easier as well, but appreciate the reflection. I would encourage again, folks to make sure they pick up a copy of Pharmfluencers: The Inspiring Stories of Pharmacy Entrepreneurs, over 30 pharmacy influencer entrepreneur stories. You can pick that up on Amazon or you can also pick that up by going to kimberboothe.com. Kimber, what’s the best place that folks can go to learn more about you and follow your journey?

[00:47:48] KB: Yeah, definitely coming to my website at kimberboothe.com, they can learn a little bit more about me. If you go to kimberboothe.com/links, you can get access to my various social media channels, as well as get the Free Pharmevader score to see what a pharmacy innovator you are. Basically, just get on my email list, so I can communicate with you more regularly when these different opportunities come up. Basically go to my website, kimberboothe.com or kimberboothe/links to get to all of my contact points.

[00:48:24] TU: Great. We’ll link to the website as well as LinkedIn and the books, we’ll link to all that in the show notes. Kimber, congratulations on, again the new book, your second book, the work that you’re doing, the impact that you’re having on the profession. Look forward to following your journey and thank you so much for coming on the show.

[00:48:39] KB: Thank you, Tim. Thanks for having me.

[OUTRO]

[00:48:41] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, let’s hear an important message from our sponsor, Insuring Income. If you are in the market to add own occupation disability insurance, term life insurance or both. Insuring Income would love to be a resource. Insuring Income has relationships with all of the high-quality disability insurance and life insurance carriers you should be considering and can help you design coverage to best protect you and your family.

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information to the podcasts and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the date published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacists.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 256: Why YFP Planning’s Lead Financial Planners Are All CFPs®

Posted on by yfpadmin

Why YFP Planning’s Lead Financial Planners Are All CFPs®

On today’s episode, sponsored by Splash Financial, YFP Planning Financial Planner, Kimberly Bolton, CFP® discusses why the CFP® designation is the most valuable credential when providing comprehensive financial planning, why the term financial planner in and of itself doesn’t mean a whole lot, what questions you can ask to find a planner who is a good fit for you, and what someone can expect when working with a financial planner.

About Today’s Guest

Kimberly Bolton, CFP®, is a Financial Planner at YFP Planning. Along with her team members, Robert Lopez, CFP®, and Savannah Nichols, she strives to help YFP Planning clients on their financial journey to living their best lives. To go along with her CFP® designation, Kim has a B.S. in Consumer Sciences with a concentration in Family Financial Planning and Counseling. When not working, Kim enjoys being in the sunshine, hitting the gym, hiking, traveling, taking her dogs Nugget and Toot on adventures, being a food enthusiast with her husband Allen, and spending time with her bonus kids Brianna and Brady.

Episode Summary

This week, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, sits down with YFP Planning Financial Planner, Kimberly Bolton, CFP®, to discuss why all of the lead financial planners at YFP Planning are CFPs®. In their discussion, Tim and Kim cover why Your Financial Pharmacist believes the CFP®, CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER, designation is the most valuable credential when providing comprehensive financial planning. Kim shares her personal story of becoming a CFP®, the rigorous education and experience requirements to become a CFP®, the comprehensive nature of the CFP® exam, the ethical standards associated with the credential, and why the CFP® is considered the most prestigious financial designation in the industry. She digs into why the term financial planner, or financial advisor, in and of itself doesn’t mean a whole lot, what specific questions you can ask to find a planner that is a good fit for you, and what someone can expect when working with a financial planner. Kim also explains common fee structures in the financial planning industry and why YFP Planning uses a fee-only structure. Tim shares a little bit of his own experience as a YFP Planning client himself, echoing Kim’s sentiment that the partnership between planner and client is an intimate one and that as a client, feeling comfortable with your planner will make an incredible difference in your experience. Kim closes with an awesome client success story, sharing how one couple was able to make their home-owning dreams come true years earlier than planned.

Key Points From This Episode

Background on Kim’s professional journey to becoming a CFP®.
What inspired her to pursue a career in financial planning.
We find out about the work that Kim is currently involved with at YFP Planning.
Why the YFP team believe so much in the CFP® designation.
Some examples of how comprehensive the CFP® training is.
How working with a certified CFP® is beneficial for the client.
Kim tells us what is required to enter the CFP® course.
What people taking the CFP® board exam can expect.
Learn about the experience requirement needed after passing the exam.
The expected ethical standards once you are certified.
Differences in the types of CFP® planners in terms of fees and services.
A brief breakdown of the different fee structures associated with CFP® planners.
Examples of good questions to ask a financial planner to ensure they are the right fit for you.
Kim shares a success story about working with a CFP®.

Highlights

“If you do any research on it, you’ll see that [being a Certified Financial Planner] is titled the most prestigious financial designation that you can have within the industry.” — Kimberly Bolton, CFP® [0:10:02]

“Here at YFP, it’s really important to us that our clients are comfortable with our recommendations. We want the clients to feel that the recommendations we make are made because it is in the client’s best interest.” — Kimberly Bolton, CFP® [0:11:58]

“Talking about your finances is a very intimate conversation. You want to make sure you are comfortable with your financial planner, because you’re going to have some intimate talks about your finances!” — Kimberly Bolton, CFP® [0:22:33]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to the YFP Podcast where, each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I had a chance to welcome YFP Planning financial planner, Kim Bolton, onto the show. We discuss why we believe the CFP, Certified Financial Planner, designation is the most valuable credential when providing comprehensive financial planning. We also discuss why the term financial planner or financial advisor in and of itself doesn’t mean a whole lot, what questions you can ask to find a planner that is a good fit for you, and what someone can expect when working with a financial planner.

Now, before we hear from today’s sponsor and then jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 households in 45 states. YFP Planning offers fee-only high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com. Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

Okay, let’s hear from today’s sponsor, and then we’ll jump into my conversation with YFP Planning financial planner, Kim Bolton. This episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast is sponsored by Splash Financial. With interest rates on the rise, it’s a good time to evaluate the refinancing of your student loans. If you’ve ever considered refinancing your loans, check your rate now through Splash Financial. If you qualify, refinancing could help you get a lower monthly payment on your student loans or get a lower interest rate. Splash helps you shop and compare loan refinancing offers across lenders nationwide.

Browsing rates through Splash Financial is fast, free, and won’t impact your credit until you complete a full application. Now, when you successfully refinance $50,000 or more, Splash Financial will give you an extra $500 in cash bonus using our link, splashfinancial.com/yfp. So check your rate today and see what you might be able to save at splashfinancial.com/yfp.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:02:21] TU: Kim, welcome to the show.

[00:02:22] KB: Thanks. Thanks for having me. I’m really excited to be here.

[00:02:25] TU: Well, this has been a long time in the making. We just celebrated your two-year anniversary here with YFP. So Kim is one of our financial planners that works with the team at YFP Planning. Today, we’re going to be talking all about why our financial planners are all CFP, certified financial planners, and why we believe so much in the CFP designation. The reason we’re putting Kim on the hot seat to talk about this topic is Kim just completed all of the components of the CFP to be able to use those marks. So, Kim, congratulations officially. Exciting to see that to the finish line.

[00:02:57] KB: Yeah, thanks. Thanks so much. It was a long journey. It took me – If you counted like my school and everything, it was about a six-year journey that it took to have the three little letters put behind my name.

[00:03:11] TU: We’ll talk about why that takes so long and why those three letters are so important. But before we jump into learning about the CFP requirements, a certified financial planner requirement, tell us more about your career journey leading up to and including the work that you’re doing with YFP Planning.

[00:03:26] KB: Yeah. So my career journey in the financial planning industry actually began with YFP. YFP is the first financial firm that I have ever worked for. Before Tim found me, I had applied and interviewed with a couple of big corporate financial firms, and I had just realized like that’s not really where I want to be. Like that didn’t feel like home to me. Prior to the financial planning industry, I actually worked for the University of Alabama. I was an office administrator in their maintenance department. So I kind of already had experience with like the customer service piece and like invoicing and paperwork and the admin part of the job.

[00:04:03] TU: Where did that interest come from, Kim, in terms of that pursuit of a career in financial planning?

[00:04:08] KB: So I was actually four months from graduating from college with an English major when I realized I want to be a financial planner, not an English major. So it started way back probably when I was like 16 and first started working. So I learned at a pretty young age how to semi-manage my finances since I had a car payment and insurance and things like that. Then I went through college thinking I was going to be an English major, and I realized in my thesis analysis class that that’s not where I wanted to be.

So I went and talked with my college advisor. Just through like brainstorming different jobs that I could have, I had kind of come up with the idea of a finance major. A finance major and a financial planning major are – It’s similar, but they’re very different. The finance major is more broad than the financial planning major. So you get pretty like concentrated when you do just a financial planning major. So when I had first mentioned finance to my advisor, we were going through the different jobs that I could have with that degree and everything, and we eventually just realized that I wanted to help people with their finances, and I wanted to help people be able to retire and live a financial-free life.

Then that’s when we decided that financial planning is what I wanted to do. So four months before graduating, I changed my degree to be financial planning. It added a year and a half onto my schooling, but it was completely worth it, and now here I am, being a financial planner.

[00:05:39] TU: I think for those, Kim, that have not worked with a planner, it can be hard to understand, like what do I expect? What is actually involved in that relationship? What does it look like? One of the things we’re going to talk about is how different this service can be. Certainly, that term financial planner, that term financial advisor, wealth manager, lots of terms that are used, it does not mean that all things are created equal. So there’s a variety of ways that it can be done.

But I think for folks that have not worked with a planner, it can even just be hard to wrap your arms around what does this actually look like. So as it relates to your work with YFP Planning and working alongside lead planner, Robert Lopez, give us a sneak peek into what your day-to-day, what your week-to-week looks like, as you help support the financial planning process for over 100 pharmacist households.

[00:06:23] KB: Right. So day-to-day, we’re pretty much in the nitty-gritty financial planning. So day-to-day, I’m helping Robert get prepared for meetings, making the presentations for him. So if you are a client of YFP and you’ve ever seen any kind of slideshow or slide deck, that is definitely me and Savannah, working behind the scenes to kind of put that together for him. Working with Robert to help make any kind of recommendations, usually like the two of us brainstorm together to make the best recommendation for the client based on their certain situation.

Then from a week-to-week perspective, that’s kind of when you get a bigger picture, and you have like more projects coming in. So right at this moment, it looks like transitioning our clients into like a quarterly meeting schedule and kind of what that looks like for them, what that involves from us from like a workflow perspective, and really kind of catapulting that into existence and moving clients into a quarterly schedule.

Overall, I directly support Robert and just make sure he’s prepared to give the client the recommendation, and I help him do any kind of research that is needed so that we can make sure we’re making the right call on different financial scenarios.

[00:07:37] TU: Robert, for folks that have not heard him on the podcast before, Robert Lopez is one of our lead financial planners, along with Kelly Reddy-Heffner. We had Robert on the podcast most recently on episode 248, where he talked about some public service loan forgiveness, PSLF, success story. So if folks are wondering, “Who is Robert,” that is who Robert is.

I think you highlighted well, Kim, that there’s a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes. I think about as we bring on a new client into YFP Planning, there’s a lot of work involved in terms of the onboarding, making sure we have all the information and then, of course, in the ongoing basis, preparing for meetings, following up for meetings. There could be transactions that need to happen, tasks that we need to make sure that we follow up on.

Even as one example, myself that you help, so I’m a client of YFP Planning, and Tim Baker is my financial planner. As I made the transition from Ohio State to working full time at YFP about a year ago, I had to do a rollover of my 401(a). So I had some questions as I looked at those forums. I wanted to make sure I did it right. I wanted to make sure there was no implications in terms of taxes or penalties. So you helped me execute that transition and that rollover. Lots of things that are happening that people may not see at face value, even for those that are engaged with the planning, where they jump onto an hour meeting or so with the lead planner.

Kim, one of the things we’ve touched on in the past is the importance of understanding, as I mentioned just a few moments ago, that not all financial planners are created equal. So they can have varied educational experiences. They can carry different designations. They can be regulated in different ways. They can charge in a variety of ways. We’re going to link to in the show notes an important resource that we have available to download for free, and that is the nuts and bolts of hiring a financial planner that I would encourage listeners to check out.

In that resource, we cover what are the different types of planners, how do they get paid, what are some questions that folks may consider asking when they hire a planner. Again, that’s the nuts and bolts to hiring planner. You can get that and download that at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/nutsandbolts, and we’ll link to that in the show notes as well.

So we’re going to focus our time on the CFP designation, the certified financial planners. We believe that that is the credential that’s an important criteria to do comprehensive financial planning and to do it well. We’re proud to have five CFPs on the YFP Planning team that collectively serve over 250 pharmacist households for one-on-one planning. Kim, let me punt this to you since you’re the most recent designee of the CFP on the YFP Planning team. Why does YFP believe so much in the CFP designation?

[00:10:10] KB: So the CFP designation, if you do any kind of research on it, you’ll see that it’s kind of titled the most prestigious financial designation that you can have within the industry. I really think that YFP believes in the CFP designation the way that we do, simply because when you have the CFP designation or you’re working towards that designation, you’re really proving to yourself and you’re proving to others how high of standards you have for yourself. So when someone is either in the process or has a designation, they are being extensively tested and quizzed on their knowledge of financial planning.

The questions and the coursework that you go through, it really digs deep and it makes you apply those financial planning concepts to real-life scenarios. So even though like you may be answering a multiple choice question when you’re being tested or when you’re doing like practice quizzes and everything, if you don’t understand how to apply the concept to a real-life scenario, then chances are you’re not going to be able to answer that question correctly. So the CFP designation really just sets you aside from everybody and shows how serious you are about your career in the financial planning world.

Another part to that is CFP designation requires that you be a fiduciary, which in short means you put the client’s interest above your own, even if that recommendation doesn’t necessarily benefit you. It just benefits the client. This would come into play, for example, like if a financial planner had recommended that somebody go out and get like a $1 million life insurance policy. There are scenarios where if you’re not a fiduciary, you could be recommending that to that client because it’s in your best interest, because you possibly get a commission off of that.

Here at YFP, it’s really important to us that our clients are comfortable with our recommendations. We want the clients to feel that the recommendations we make are made because it is in the client’s best interest. We don’t want that client to think like, “Hey, are they just making this recommendation because it benefits them, not because it benefits me?” So that’s really the big picture why I think YFP takes the CFP designation and so serious, is because it gives our clients that peace of mind. It gives them that level of comfort with us that we are working in their best interest, and we are doing what’s going to benefit them more than what’s going to benefit us.

[00:12:35] TU: Yeah. That was a great explanation, Kim, the fiduciary piece. We’re actually going to link that in the show notes. If people want to learn more about what the fiduciary standard is, why it matters, how it’s different from what’s known as the suitability standard, John Oliver has a great segment on this topic, and we’ll link to that in the show notes. Kim, you explained it well. So I think the highlights there would be the fiduciary piece, the rigors we’ll talk about in a moment, what makes up the CFP designation.

As Tim Baker often says, “The bar of entry into financial advising and hanging a shingle to be a financial adviser is fairly low.” So being able to have some rigor, some documented evidence of the work that’s been put in, the seriousness of that training, and obviously being prepared to then provide comprehensive financial planning, that’s something we see often that traditional financial planning services might not necessarily be serving at folks in all different phases of life. Are they well-versed in things from retirement planning to debt management and everything in between? I think if you look at the CFP curriculum, very intense but also very comprehensive.

So to that point, in terms of the rigor and the intensity, Kim you mentioned several years it took you to obtain that designation. So talk to us about the requirements that one must go through in order to be able to use those three letters by their name.

[00:13:52] KB: Right. So there’s a couple of different ways that you can be qualified for the CFP exam. The most common is for someone to go through the CFP board’s coursework. In my situation, my college degree qualified me for the CFP exam. So you either have to have a bachelor’s degree that qualifies you for the exam, or you have to go through the CFP board’s coursework. Then once you have completed the education piece, you were then allowed to sit for the exam. The exam is 170 questions. They give you a six-hour limit, and it’s broken into three-hour segments. So three hours and then they let you leave for 30 minutes, and then you come back for the remaining three hours. Yeah, it’s pretty brutal.

When I was taking mine, the lady that was working the front desk at the testing center when I left or when I was leaving, she told me, she said, “You’ve been here a long time today.” I’m like, “Yes, I just took a really long test.” Then once you pass that exam, which again during that exam, you’re tested on the ability to apply financial planning to real-life scenarios, and then you’re given a few different case studies where you have to dig through. It’s like a multiple answer question that you have to really look at.

Then once you have passed the exam, you are then required to fulfill an experience requirement. So if you are working directly underneath another CFP, which in my case, I was working directly under Robert and Tim Baker, so working underneath them, I was required to get 4,000 hours of experience, which comes in at almost two years of work in the financial planning industry. Once all that is complete, then you basically sign your life away, saying you will be a fiduciary from here on out, and you will uphold to the CFP board’s like ethical standards and their standards of conduct.

Then every year, we have some CE courses that we have to do. It sounds simple, but it’s really complex. After you’ve done all that, so the education, the exam, the experience, and then once you agree to the ethical requirements, you become a CFP.

[00:16:02] TU: Yeah. So I think pharmacists, they can relate to this, right? You described an educational component, you described an examination, and then you described what I would consider like an experiential component. So you mentioned 4,000 hours of practical experience and not until all of those have been completed and plus the acknowledgement that you’re going to uphold the fiduciary standard. Then at that point, you can use the certified financial planner marks.

We think about pharmacy education. You’ve got the doctor pharmacy program. You’ve got the experiential rotations, which are typically throughout school, and then the final year of pharmacy school. Then we have the licensure examination. So we have a NAPLEX exam, and then we have a state law examination. However, what I’ll point out here is that I won’t say the NAPLEX is easy, but the pass rate of the CFP is much lower than the NAPLEX. I’m looking at the March 2022 examination of the CFP, and the pass rate was only 65 percent, so a very rigorous exam.

Typically, we see board pass rates in pharmacy – I think the last I looked at it, we’re closer to 85 to 90 percent, so very rigorous exam. Then to my comment earlier, it’s a great benchmark, certainly not the only thing folks should be looking at as they’re shopping for a planner, but a good indicator that someone has gone through a rigorous process, educational component, examination, and an experiential piece that demonstrates their ability to do planning.

Kim, I mentioned this briefly earlier, but I want to talk more about it in this concept of are all CFPs created equal in terms of types of services and how fees are assessed. Really, when you get the CFP marks, you have demonstrated that you’ve gone through all the things that you just talked to, but that may not mean that all CFPs are operating in the same way in terms of the services that they offer or as well as in the fees that they’re charging, correct?

[00:17:44] KB: Yeah, that’s right. So it’s really a wide range of like different services and different fee structures that you can have. Kind of to be brief with it and not go down a rabbit hole, you can have CFPs that are comprehensive planners. So that’s like us here at YFP, where we go from one end of the spectrum to the other. We can help you buy a house, we can help you invest your 401(k), or we can help you improve your credit score, anything along the lines. So it’s really everything under that financial planning umbrella.

Or you can have CFPs that strictly do just investment management. This is going to be CFPs that worked directly with your investments, so like that employer retirement plan or that traditional IRA or Roth IRA that you may have. Just another different spectrum that you could be on is you could simply work at an insurance company, and you could be the financial planner that is selling the insurance, whether it’d be life insurance, disability, umbrella insurance. It’s a big world out there, and so your options are kind of limitless on what kind of services you provide.

Then as far as fees go, so really the three most common that most people have probably heard is a fee-based, commission-based, or a fee-only. So fee-only is what we are here at YFP. I’m sure we’ve mentioned it a few times on the podcast but fee-only basically. When you come on board with us, and we quote you your price to work with us, that is the price. That is what we are paid. We don’t get any kind of commissions or any kind of kickbacks or anything like that. Whereas with commission-based fees, that planner is going to work strictly off of the commissions that they make from selling you products.

Then fee-based gets a little sticky because it is where it can be a flat fee, but then you also receive kickbacks off of people’s investments or insurance policies or things like that. So fees and services can get a little bit sticky and can be a tad complicated, but that is in short are like the major ones that are the most common.

[00:19:44] TU: Yeah. As you described, Kim, it really is the Wild Wild West in terms of how services are constructed, how often you meet with a planner, what to expect, what they’re managing, what they’re doing, as well as the fees, and how those fees are assessed and charged. So that really means there’s due diligence on the client side to be asking the right questions as they’re conducting that search. We talked about this in detail in episode 54. Several other resources we have as well available at yfpplanning.com. Folks can look for more information there. But it really talks more about the model that we do at YFP Planning, as well as the concept of fee-only.

I want to just for a moment give an example, Kim, of fee-only and why we believe that matters. So you gave the definition of it. Let’s say you’re working with a client, Kim, and you determine that there’s a need for, let’s just say, long-term disability insurance on top of some employer coverage they may have. Well, under the fiduciary standard, under the fee-only model, as you work with that client to determine what the benefit need is, you’re not selling the insurance policy, number one, and you’re not getting any direct kickback for the recommendation of any specific product that you would be recommending.

In that case, you can really help evaluate objectively what does the client need, what does the client not need, and then help look at a variety of different options as they shop those policies around. So I think that many pharmacists that will resonate with them in terms of wanting to have unbiased recommendations as possible. To that point that I made that it’s important, we’re asking good questions to understand what do people do in terms of services and how do they charge. What are some questions that you would recommend, Kim, folks ask as they’re looking for a planner that is hopefully a good fit for them?

[00:21:25] KB: Yeah. So I think the first question you should ask is are you a fiduciary? Because simply, you want somebody that is going to give you advice based on your best interest, not the planner’s best interest. The second big one is like what qualifications do you have. You want to make sure that your planner is qualified to actually be giving you financial advice, and it’s not just somebody like posing as a financial planner. Then how are you paid is going to be another big one. So that’s going to tell you like, “Do they receive commission off of me like. Is this a fee-only relationship?” So how are you paid is a big one.

Then another one would be like how is our relationship going to work. So you want to make sure that you and the financial planner are on the same page about how the relationship will work between the two of you. So like how often will you meet? Like how will you manage my assets? How do you plan to help me buy a house? Like kind of what does the relationship look like? Other than those big questions, I would simply just make sure that you jive with that financial planner.

Talking about your finances is a very intimate conversation, so you want to make sure like you are comfortable with that financial planner because you’re going to have some intimate talks about your finances. So you want to make sure that you’re comfortable opening up with that person and that your personalities kind of go together. In that way, you feel comfortable talking to them, and you feel comfortable sharing details about your finances, and you don’t feel like you have to hold back because either personalities clash or because you’re not really comfortable opening up with them.

[00:23:03] TU: Great overview. As we always say, shout out to Justin here who does our business development and our discovery calls on the front end, it has to be a good fit from both ends, right? If you as a client are going to make an investment of time and money, and our planning time is going to make an investment in that relationship as well, there has to be a good fit, and that starts with expectations in terms of folks being on the same page. I think that starts with making sure you’re comfortable what that relationship looks like and by asking some good questions, as Kim just highlighted there.

Kim, do you have an anonymous success story or two that you can share of clients of YFP Planning that really highlights the impact that a CFP can have and that the planning team can also have at large?

[00:23:46] KB: Yeah. I actually have a really good example. I had even mentioned it to Robert to make sure he was okay with me sharing. When I told him the example that I was going to use, he was completely on board with it, so I’m excited. But we had these long-term clients. They’ve been around with YFP I think longer than I have, but they had gone through residency. The wife had already graduated, and she was in her career. But the husband was still in residency. It was cool to be able to watch him finish his residency program.

Then once he had finished, they moved states to be closer to where he had received a job. They were living in a townhome, and they had done a couple of budgeting meetings with us, make sure they were saving correctly and make sure that they were saving enough for retirement. Then the question came about. They were like, “Well, we want to buy a house.” Behind the scenes, they had done all the math to figure out how long they needed to save in order to have that 20 percent down payment that we always hear about when it comes to home buying.

They had figured out that it was going to take them five years to save a 20 percent down payment, and they were really in the dumps about it. Like they enjoyed where they live, but they also wanted to be homeowners. They wanted to get that next chapter in their life started. So we had a call with them. We could kind of tell that they were down in the dumps about it being five more years before they could even really begin to seriously look at houses and put in offers and everything. Then we made the recommendation to them. We told them like, “You are eligible for a doctor loan, which with the doctor loan, you don’t have to have the 20 percent down payment.” So we went through the whole process of educating them on what a doctor loan is and what those terms look like and like why they don’t need the 20 percent down payment.

Then it was literally like 30 days to the mark after that conversation. They were closing on their first house without a 20 percent down payment. At this point, they’ve probably moved in. I haven’t talked to them lately, though. But it was awesome to be able to help them realize like, “Hey, we don’t have to wait five years to buy a house. We can buy a house now.” So they were over the moon, they had found a home and that the home ownership chapter was beginning. It was awesome to watch, and it also just made me realize, and they even mentioned it. Like without the YFP Planning team, like who knows if they would have ever even known what a doctor loan was, and that it could have been five more years before they actually got in the home. So it was awesome to be able to help them make that transition into the next chapter of their life.

[00:26:24] TU: I love that story. Thanks for sharing. What I love about that too is when we think about the pharmacists home loan, doctor loan products, we’ve talked about them on the podcast before, one of the I think challenges that can be there is if folks aren’t really evaluating that home purchase in the context of the rest of the financial plan, is that home-buying can be exciting. It can be emotional. It can be stressful. We can easily find ourselves down a path of the home purchase that may not jive with the rest of the financial plan.

You are here. Robert is with a client and not only being able to open up a new avenue that maybe wasn’t considered to make this home purchase a reality, but also considering and evaluating that and the rest of the financial plan. So how does a home purchase fit with also making sure we’re progressing for retirement and with other financial goals as well? So really cool story to share, and I think one of the things that you and the planning team do so well is striking this balance between taking care of our future selves but also living a rich life today. Both are really important, and that’s a great story and example of why it is.

Kim, thank you so much for taking time, number one, to come on the show, and excited to get you in front of the YFP community, if folks don’t know who you are, aren’t familiar with you yet. Again, congratulations on all the hard work that went into getting the CFP. I would remind folks that we’ve got a great guide an overview of the nuts and bolts to hiring a financial planner. You can download that for free at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/nutsandbolts.

Then for folks that are hearing this and saying, “Hey, I’d love to learn more about the planning services offered by Kim and the rest of the team at YFP Planning,” you can book a free discovery call with Justin Woods, our Director of Business Development. You can do that by going to yfpplanning.com. So, Kim, again, thank you so much.

[00:28:11] KB: Yeah, thank you for having me.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[00:28:13] TU: Before we wrap up today’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, I want to, again, thank our sponsor, Splash Financial. If you’ve ever considered refinancing your loans, check your rate now through Splash Financial. If you qualify, refinancing could help get you a lower monthly payment on your student loans or get a lower interest rate. Splash helps you shop and compare loan refinancing offers across lenders nationwide. Browsing rates through Splash Financial is fast, free, and won’t impact your credit until you complete a full application.

Now, when you successfully refinance $50,000 or more, Splash Financial will give you an extra $500 in cash bonus using our link, splashfinancial.com/yfp. So check your rate today and see what you might be able to save at splashfinancial.com/yfp.

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information in the podcast and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts, and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist, unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the date published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 255: Own Your PharmD, Own Your Career with Ashlee Klevens Hayes and Chris Cozzolino

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Own Your PharmD, Own Your Career with Ashlee Klevens Hayes and Chris Cozzolino

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, welcomes back to the show Ashlee Klevens Hayes & Chris Cozzolino, two pharmacists and entrepreneurs. Together, they discuss the new book Ashlee and Chris have co-authored: ‘Own Your PharmD, Own Your Career: Real Life Advice from 50+ Pharmacy Leaders and Influencers.’

About Today’s Guests

Ashlee Klevens Hayes

Ashlee Klevens Hayes is a 3rd generation pharmacist who set out on a traditional pharmacy path that turned into so much more. She’s an initiator, a pharmacy entrepreneur, and career strategist. After graduating from The University of Southern California School of Pharmacy she completed a 2-year health system pharmacy administration residency at the University of Kentucky and then took on the position of Associate Director of Central Pharmacy Operations at UK. In 2017, she founded Rx Ashlee, a career development company that focuses on business development, branding, marketing, career pivots, and interview preparation for highly skilled professionals. Shortly after, she launched the Rx Buzz Podcast on the Pharmacy Podcast Network and started with the University of Southern California School of Pharmacy as a career strategist.

Chris Cozzolino

Chris Cozzolino is a recent pharmacy graduate (Class of 2020) from the University of Iowa and the Co-Founder of Uptown Creation, a B2B Business Development and Consulting Firm. Prior to pharmacy school, Chris founded an Amazon Dropshipping store, which he still has to this day. During his time in pharmacy school, he Co-Founded Uptown Creation. Uptown Creation began as an Instagram Growth and Consulting company but has evolved into a more full-service Business Development Firm. Chris has a passion for business and hopes to merge this with his love for the pharmacy community.

Episode Summary

Many people who graduate from pharmacy school can feel overwhelmed when entering the sector for the first time. Pharmacists often feel that their training and expectations of the field do not match the real-world pharmacy setting. Imagine if you could speak to some of the top people in the industry for advice and guidance to help you on your journey to a successful career. This goal was the object of today’s guests, Ashlee Klevens Hayes and Chris Cozzolino’s new book Own Your PharmD, Own Your Career: Real Life Advice from 50+ Pharmacy Leaders and Influencers. Their new book offers readers a wealth of information that can only be gained from experience, comprising over 50 interviews with respected and successful pharmacists and industry influencers. In this episode, listeners will learn about Chris and Ashlee, why they decided to write a book on the subject, the importance of interpersonal skills to becoming a successful pharmacist, and common traits that limit peoples’ potential. Chris and Ashlee speak about the gaps in what pharmacy school does not prepare you for, typical expectations of the pharmacy world from new practitioners, and how to adjust and find success in the various seasons of your career as a pharmacist.

Key Points From This Episode

Introduction and a brief background about today’s guests.
The motivation behind Ashlee’s and Chris’s decision to write a book.
What Chris’s and Ashlee’s overall goal of writing a book was.
A brief discussion about the importance of networking to become successful.
Examples of lessons learned while writing and interviewing people for the book.
Importance of soft skills to becoming a successful pharmacist.
How finding measures of success for different seasons of your career is important.
Common traits Chris and Ashlee noticed hold back people from reaching their full potential.
Where limiting thoughts come from for pharmacists.
Strategies that Chris uses to ensure that he is enjoying his current career path.
Where Chris learned how important enjoying the process is.
Ashlee explains the importance of mindset and how you see opportunities.
Chris tells us about his decision to self-publish as opposed to working with a publisher.
What Ashlee has enjoyed the most from the book writing process.

Highlights

“The goal of the book is really to try to bring out those authentic tidbits that you might not be able to get out of somebody unless you’re speaking to them over dinner or casually and not in a professional setting.” — Chris Cozzolino, PharmD [0:08:46]

“We’re in this limbo, in this transition of going from a very traditional marketplace to a very nontraditional marketplace. That is very scary and intimidating to people who are used to doing one plus one equals always two.” — Ashlee Klevens Hayes, PharmD, MHA, CELDC [0:19:49]

“If you’re able to enjoy getting there just as much as that final destination, I think that’s what happiness is.” — Chris Cozzolino, PharmD [0:22:20]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here. Thank you for listening to the YFP podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. What if I told you that you could interview 50 or more influential leaders within our profession? That would be incredible, right? Better yet, what if you could compile the key insights from those interviews for ongoing guidance and inspiration?

Doctors Ashlee Klevens Hayes and Chris Cozzolino have created that resource and Own Your PharmD, Own Your Career: Real Life Advice from 50+ Pharmacy Leaders and Influencers. These two leaders, innovators and entrepreneurs have demonstrated individually, how to own your PharmD, own your career. They have walked the walk, and while sharing their own insights and tips would produce a much needed resource, they decided instead to share the stage with some great minds in our profession.

[00:00:51] TU: Before we jump into the show and I talk with Ashlee and Chris about their book, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 households in 40 plus states. YFP Planning offers fee only high touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether or not YFP Planning, financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacies achieve financial freedom. Okay, let’s hear from today’s sponsor and then we’ll jump into my interview with Ashlee and Chris.

This week’s podcast episode is brought to you by Insuring Income. Insuring Income is your source for all things term, life insurance and own occupation disability insurance. Insuring Income has a relationship with America’s top rated term life insurance and Disability Insurance Company, so pharmacists like you can easily find the best solutions for your personal situation. To better serve you. Insuring Income reviews all applicable carriers in the marketplace for your desired coverage, supports clients in all 50 states and make sure all of your questions get answered.

To get quotes and apply for term life or disability insurance, see sample contract from disability carriers or learn more about these topics. Visit insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist. Again that’s insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:02:29] TU: Chris and Ashlee welcome.

[00:02:30] AKH: What’s up?

[00:02:32] CC: Excited to be here.

[00:02:34] TU: Both of you have been in front of the YFP community before, Ashlee way back when on episode 95 of the YFP podcast, Chris more recently on episode 28, but I don’t want to assume that folks know all the great things that you’re working on and who you are. So Chris, let’s start with you. Tell us a little bit more about yourself, your background into pharmacy and the work that you’re currently doing.

[00:02:57] CC: Yeah. My name’s Chris Cozzolino. I’m based in Iowa City, Iowa. I went to the University of Iowa for pharmacy school and graduated in 2020. I’m not currently practicing as a pharmacist, but while I was in pharmacy school in college, I was able to build a social media marketing business that does a lot of work with direct outreach and scheduling sales appointments for sales teams and business development reps. So that’s where my path is right now and really being in the thick of starting conversations with people, meeting people and doing things like this.

[00:03:31] TU: Awesome –

[00:03:33] AKH: You can’t say that you’re not a practicing pharmacist. You are.

[00:03:39] CC: I mean, I’m licensed and everything, so I can go practice at any point of time, but yeah.

[00:03:43] TU: That’s what I always tell Chris, my family and friends when they ask me a pharmacy question. I say, “You need to go talk to your local pharmacy.”

[00:03:51] AKH: Yes. Exactly.

[00:03:53] TU: How about for you? Tell us more about your background and the work that you’re doing now.

[00:03:58] AKH: Sure. I graduated pharmacy school a long time ago now. Then I did, I went to USC, so University State of California then I went to University of Kentucky. I was the first admin resident there. I think, it’s Health System Pharmacy, HSP. I don’t know. We didn’t have the lingo when I was back in residency, so I did that for a couple of years. Then I stayed on as the Operations Director of Bureaucratic Services. Then I transitioned to working for a medical device, pharmaceutical, a blend of a medical device at pharmaceutical company where I got this entrepreneurial mindset of why people are in pharma and they’re not pharmacists. I was confused. I didn’t know that existed. I thought you had to be a clinician to be in healthcare.

I worked for that company as an internal consultant for a couple of years, and then they ended up selling to a large pharmaceutical company and my position was severed in that transition in that purchase. For the first time in my career, I had a six month old daughter. I was the breadwinner. We were moving from Kentucky back to California, and I lost my job. It was a terrible situation, but it was the first time that I had the opportunity to take a step back and ask myself, what did I want to do with my career? What does success mean to me? How can I support my family, but still be around and how can I bring all of my different skillsets into just a different career?

With the blend of my pharmacy background, my business background, my operations background, I started RX Ashlee six years ago as a career strategist, and since then I’ve helped over 5000 pharmacies and mostly pharmacists, I would say 75% pharmacies and 25% health care professionals really thrive in their careers. That entails one-on-one services, keynote speaking engagements, workshops, seminars, webinars, podcast like this and then stuff like the little books that we get to write every once in a while, that Chris and I partnered in. So that’s been my our recent most fun passion project.

[00:06:03] TU: Six years with RX. Ashlee, where’s time gone? That’s wild. Yeah.

[00:06:08] AKH: I know, I mean, the first year or two, was my side hustle. It was definitely more of a let’s dabble in this and see where it goes. Then stuff got real once things started picking up and people were happy and clients are happy and that was happy and my husband was happy, I was like, all right, let’s see where this goes. So now it’s been it’s been amazing and I’m super grateful.

[00:06:29] TU: Why not? I’m sure this both with you before and I wholeheartedly mean, I have a ton of respect for both of you in terms of the work that you’ve done professionally of what I know of you guys personally. I think the value that you’re bringing to the profession of pharmacy is really inspiring to me. I know it’s having an impact on others. So we’re talking here today. Got my copy right here of your book that you guys recently launched, which is Own Your PharmD, Own Your Career: Real Life Advice From 50+ Pharmacy Leaders and Influencers, when Chris and Ashlee get together to collaborate on a book, I’m going to read it. Others should read it. There’s some great advice in here.

My first question here, and Chris I’ll kick it off with you is, you both are busy running your own businesses. Obviously you’ve got personal commitments as well, so why write a book? What inspired and led you to ultimately take on the task of putting this resource together?

[00:07:23] CC: Yeah. I think obviously Ashlee and I both like having our hands in pharmacy and Ashlee is a lot more on the forefront working with pharmacists on a daily basis, whereas I don’t get as much time to do that. Since I knew that I made it a goal of mine to make sure to stay active in the pharmacy community and be able to bring value from what my other passions are with business and entrepreneurship. There’s so many influencers in traditional entrepreneurship that spew the same messages that, if you’re in that ecosystem, you hear them over and over again, but if you’re not, you’ve probably never heard a lot of the even the clichés like, probably the most you’ve heard is your network is your network, which everybody here is it networking conferences.

There’s so many other tidbits from the entrepreneurship world and those influencers that have made my life a lot better to being able to bridge that into pharmacy. I’ve realize that a lot of other people gain value from that. Then on a secondary note, really wanting to tap into the brains of other people and take advantage of my ability as an extrovert to connect with people, have conversations and know that you can’t really pick at somebody’s brain unless you are talking to them or have a more real connection with them.

The goal of the book is really to try to bring out those authentic tidbits that you might not be able to get out of somebody unless you’re speaking to them over dinner or casually and not in a professional setting.

[00:08:59] TU: Yeah, that’s what I love about it. You can read it front to back if you want, and I think have a lot of takeaway, but also can sit on the desk and you can periodically have it as a source of inspiration. I hope, as I wrote as a challenge to folks in the forward to take advantage of the network that is inside of this book, right? Well, one of the things that and I know you guys have experienced this as well, when I talk with student pharmacists and even new practitioners and they’re talking boldly about ideas that they have, and they’re all energized, which is awesome. I said, “Hey, have you talked to so-and-so or have you thought about connecting with so-and-so?” There’s almost this fear that people are untouchable out there, that those are those people doing those things.

I’ve never run across a pharmacist that hasn’t been willing or another individual, especially if a connection can be made that isn’t willing to spend a few moments to share some wisdom advice, encouragement, and to connect you with someone else as well. I hope folks will take the advice that’s here, but also take it as an opportunity to connect with other individuals in the book.

[00:10:00] AKH: We just did that before the call, too. I mean, you guys, Tim, jumped on, said, “Hey, Chris, Ashlee is going to meet this person, you got to meet this person.” Then that is a trail of just amazing connections. You never know where it’s going to take you.

[00:10:13] TU: One of things I love about the way that you guys wrote this is that certainly the individuals that are here, it’s a diverse group of individuals, impressive titles and impressive accomplishments. I think what is most important is the insights into why they’ve been successful.

[00:10:29] AKH: Right.

[00:10:29] TU: I think that we can get hung up in a professional field that is highly credentialed of the number of letters we have after our name, and what titles we have. But what is it individually that has allowed those folks to be successful? As you guys distill the advice of these leaders, the 50+ individuals that are in this book. Chris, I’ll start with you. Did anything surprise you from the responses that came forward?

[00:10:54] CC: Yeah. I think it surprised me, but it makes a lot of sense looking back in hindsight. The biggest thing probably being that so much of the advice is very human advice and not necessarily profession, specific, while there are going to be those professions specific tidbits. It’s much more of the stuff that you don’t get by being a pharmacist. I think as pharmacists, we all go through so much training and that’s your day-to-day and everything. You’re so in the thick of it that being able to hear advice that goes bigger and beyond, just pharmacy as a profession, but more life advice and just profession advice. It’s still relative to healthcare, but has a bigger impact.

[00:11:40] TU: Yeah, there’s a vulnerability in the responses that I saw come through and into your comment earlier. That’s a lot of conversations over coffee to get that type of information that’s really here in one resource, but I was impressed with the vulnerability that came through and the responses and the humility that also came through and the responses. You can tell at least one of the themes I took away was a huge self-awareness among the individuals. So despite the success, despite the accomplishments, there’s great awareness into what has shaped them into the person and the leader that they are, but also what are the areas that they continue to improve upon to get better. I think that humility is really refreshing to read and to see as a team in the book. Ashlee, any significant takeaways for you?

[00:12:24] AKH: Well it’s interesting, because I train people on how to have humility and how to practice self-awareness every single day. When I saw the responses, I was like, “Yes, this is meat and potatoes that I’m trying to get into pharmacy practice.” It wasn’t necessarily surprising to me. It was more on par to what I believe in. It’s just nice that people are talking about it, because when I started blogging, when I started giving keynotes to pharmacists six or seven years ago, it was a very uncomfortable space, I think. People are, “Wow, you’re so brave. We’re talking about this.” It’s like, this is normal stuff. Why aren’t people talking about relationships, about marriages, about how to have a family, how to go through traumas in your life like divorce and still maintain a successful career?

When I started seeing these conversations pop up within some of the dialog and the conversations that we were having with the people who contributed to the book, I was like, “Thank you for just being open and honest and real.” Because I don’t think we – especially coming out of pharmacy school, I think you’re in this little bit of a bubble, not a little bit. You are in a bubble of what’s to be expected in the pharmacy world. Then you get into it and you’re like, “Wait a minute. No one told me about this stuff.”

Then I to say every level comes with a new double, so just because, I gave an example of just a recent grad, but ten years out, 20 years out, 30 years out, 40, 50 years out. Every season comes with a different challenge. A lot of the people that we brought into the book talked about the different seasons.

[00:14:02] TU: Yeah. Ashlee, every level comes with the new dev. I’m going to quote that for here. That’s a good one –

[00:14:07] AKH: I don’t know, if that’s me quote or I’ve learned it from somewhere else. So sorry, if someone else said it, but I just remember, I’ve been saying that a lot lately, because I’m in a different season of my life than I was ten years ago. I think no one told me to prepare for that. I think it’s really important for the readers or for people listening to understand to finding success at different, different seasons in your career is really important.

[00:14:29] TU: 100%. One of the things that really has hit me across the head over the last couple of years, but I would say has been a journey really over the last decade is I’m slowly realizing more and more that my mindset as I think about our business, what we’re working on and trying to transform the financial wellness of the pharmacist workforce. The greatest contribution that I can bring to our business to achieve the vision and the mission that we have is the mindset that I bring to see the potential of who we are and who we can become.

There’s a whole lot and I’m covering that of what are the limitations that someone puts upon themselves, where did those come from? How do we advance through the next level or bust through the next ceiling? Why does that ceiling even exist in the first place? There’s just so much to uncover there, but those are things in pharmacy school you’re not even thinking about and you start to see whether people use mindset, those words or not. That to me came through loud and clear in this book was the development of it. I get to talk with pharmacists everyday.

One of my greatest joys is when I get to talk with an individual that has a spark of an idea or has something creative they want to pursue. They just need a little push or a little bit of nudge, because they have a lot of self-doubts and fears and anxieties and a lot of things that it’s prevented them from moving forward with that idea and they need some challenging encouragement. So my question here related to that is, for many pharmacists to feel like, “Hey, I may not be the living to my full potential, I feel there’s something else that might be there. What did you take away as you compile this as one or two things that are often holding back pharmacies from really living to that full potential?

[00:16:11] CC: Yeah. I think the big one is fear of the unknown, just with the personality types that are in pharmacy and health care. We like structure. We like things that are known. It’s a little bit more difficult for us to push ourselves out of our comfort zones. I think for one, fear of losing a job or letting somebody down in your work, which from my experience, seeing other pharmacists, most pharmacists aren’t even close to the point of letting people down, but they’re still working vigorously to not let anybody down.

I think that so to take that a little bit further, the knowledge that you can always get another job, you can always take a year off and your life is going to be pretty much the same. That’s outside of having financial responsibilities. You need to be able to cover those financial responsibilities. But even if it’s you need to go part time to do some self-discovery, still make the money that you can support yourself, your family, your loved ones, but take the time to explore something else.

I don’t think anybody’s going to regret doing that if they’re able to have the conviction to take a leap of faith to do whatever that thing is or explore whatever that new area is. It doesn’t have to be outside of pharmacy, it could be just another roll in pharmacy or another area of pharmacy that is of interest to you. It’s never too late, which is such a cliche thing. I mean, it’s true.

[00:17:44] AKH: There’s a lot of people that talk about that in the book.

[00:17:46] TU: That fear of not letting other people down. I think you’re on to something there. Not to say thats unique to pharmacists, but I see that a lot inside of our profession like what is that? Where does that come from? Chris, I think your comment is spot on. It’s so far from that, right? But it can be paralyzing and it can be crippling when you’re operating each day with that fear. Not that I’m expecting you guys, but the crystal ball answer on this, but where does that come from? Why is that?

[00:18:15] AKH: Again, similar to what you said Tim, like this isn’t just a pharmacist thing that if I speak to pharmacists and I am a pharmacist and I’ve been around pharmacists, my best friends are pharmacists. I feel like I live, breathe and eat pharmacy, but I feel we think that we had to have it figured out. I feel like a lot of the people I work with have to know precisely what the next step is going to look like similar to what Chris said. I get the sense that we need a checklist, that we need one plus one always equals two. I mean, there’s no other way around it, right? There’s no gray.

In this ecosystem, in this non-traditional career marketplace, this gig economy, this crazy 2022 world, it’s just not as black and white as it used to be. So, my God, I’m a third generation pharmacist. So when my grandfather graduated he opened up a pharmacy and he did well. Then my dad graduated and he opened a pharmacy, but then he also had all these other gigs going on, and he had a pension plan, and he didn’t have student loans. His first car was a Porsche, like life was not terrible for him.

My experience was completely different. I have student loans. I do not have a Porsche. One day I will. My career has been really windy and I’ve been out for ten, 11, 12 years. I’ve had multiple different roles and not, because of anything other than advancing my career, but also wanting to do different things. I have different passions. I have different experiences, I have different skillsets. I think what happened is we’re in this limbo, in this transition of going from a very traditional marketplace to a very non-traditional marketplace. That is very scary and intimidating to people who are used to doing one plus one equals always two.

There’s no specific checklist, and that’s a lot of what the book talks about. That’s a lot of what I work on with my clients of, it takes time, but it actually pans out. It’s going to work out. So I think we’re just scared of that in limbo stage, if not knowing what looks like next.

[00:20:17] TU: Yeah. I was thinking about this a lot recently, Ashlee, and messy and non-linear, the words that keep coming in mind, and that is if we think back to our educational experience, it was clean and linear.

[00:20:26] AKH: Totally.

[00:20:29] TU: Messy and non-linear I think is where the magic happens. It can be painful like –

[00:20:34] AKH: Very painful.

[00:20:35] TU: It can be uncomfortable, but I think that’s where a lot of the self-discovery happens is in the messy and the non-linear. I think that when I read folks responses in the book that you can see that self-discovery, you can see that journey that the folks have been on. It wasn’t what they thought it was going to be at the beginning, typically.

[00:20:54] AKH: No.

[00:20:54] TU: Right.

[00:20:55] AKH: No, no way.

[00:20:55] TU: Which is exciting, I think. I want to give people a flavor of the book, and I’m going to do that by putting you guys on the hot seat with some your own responses. In the book, so each of you have a chapter in the book that you wrote similar to other of the 50+ plus leaders that responded. Chris, for the question where, what one piece of career advice would you give to your younger self? You said the following. “Enjoy the process. If you focus on enjoying the journey to your destination rather than fixating on the goal you will be happier. If you don’t want the process, you may not be on the right path.” Easier said than done, right? My question for you is, what strategies have you employed that you’re not just focused on the outcome that may or may not come into the future and it likely, if it does come, is going to be fleeting, but rather your focus on the day-to- day process and really having enjoyment in that. What strategies have you employed for that?

[00:21:44] CC: I mean, for one, I’m lucky that I’m able to do the things that don’t feel work to me and that spark joy within me. Yeah, that mindset of it, is a little bit of Gary Vaynerchuk and that’s one of the examples of an entrepreneur that a lot of health care and pharmacy people probably haven’t heard of, but spews the same messages that are very relevant. But the concept of enjoying the process and being able to have gratitude for the day-to-day that you’re able to do and you can have lofty goals and have goals that you’re trying to hit. But if you’re able to enjoy getting there just as much as that final destination, I think that’s what happiness is.

Finding a role, finding a position, finding a lifestyle that is conducive of that definitely takes a lot of trial and error. I don’t think anybody ever figures it out 100%, but trying to get closer to that and just doing the things that are enjoyable. I think again, going back to the ability to self-reflect and know what your strengths are, what your weaknesses are, but more so, what you enjoy doing and what you don’t enjoy doing and how that plays into your day-to-day and how you can structure it to do the things that you don’t enjoy doing. Maybe get those out of the way and then put more effort into the things you do enjoy.

[00:23:08] TU: As I hear you say that, there’s a lot of wisdom in that. I admire that as someone who’s pretty darn early on in their career, where does that wisdom come from? Is that experience? Is that mentorship? Where are you able to get some of that, in terms of enjoying the process?

[00:23:27] CC: Yeah. I think I’ve always been one to take risks, which I’m lucky to have that affinity to taking risk, which has allowed me to do an entrepreneurial route and taste a bunch of different things to see what I like and inevitably find the things that I enjoy and don’t enjoy. My parents played a big part in it, encouraging me to try different things and being supportive of that. I think having that support system that’s going to be encouraging to you and a base of people that you’re able to bounce ideas off of and like you were saying earlier, Tim, to some extent was having people that you can bounce ideas off of and let them nudge you in the right direction. It’s probably going to be the direction you’re already headed, but there’s a lot to be said about just somebody giving you that affirmation that it’s okay to do this thing that you’re thinking about. It’s not going to burn down everything that you’ve worked for.

[00:24:25] TU: It’s okay to go down the messy non-linear path, right? It’s okay. It’s okay. Great stuff. I appreciate that. Ashlee, one of the questions that you responded to and what advice would you share with the pharmacy friend who feel stuck in their current role and burntout? You gave several responses, but one of those responses, you said, “Burnout and feeling stuck are not the same thing. Burnout means you need a break, need tighter boundaries, and might need to refocus on your priorities. Feeling stuck is a feeling of a fixed mindset. Change the way you look at opportunities. It will change your life.” If Ashlee says it’s going to change your life, I’m going to listen. So what do you mean by the fixed mindset and what do you mean about changing the way you look at opportunities?

[00:25:08] AKH: Yeah. I like that answer. It’s been a while. I’ve had a whole pregnancy in between my answers and today. I like it. The fixed mindset versus, I can’t recall the stuff in my head, who talked about it. It was Stanford faculty professor who coined this many years ago, a psychiatrist. The fix-mindset versus the growth-mindset is the growth-mindset just loves feedback, loves to change, loves adapting, loves getting constructive support, loves improving. Whereas the fix-mindset is, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on, change is rough. I don’t really want to know about other things. I want to just stay on this path. Someone just needs to tell me how to fix a few things, and then I’m going to do it, and then it’s going to be fixed.

I get the sense that a lot of clients in the past have been down that fixed-mindset and only believe that they are capable of doing very limited things. It’s very challenging for me to convince them, that’s not my job to convince them, but I do try to encourage them with convincing them with data of, listen, you have so many opportunities in front of you, you have to actually believe that what’s capable for yourself. I can’t sit here and tell you what is capable despite the data, despite the facts, despite showing you percentages and just showing you other people’s LinkedIn profiles, other people’s CV’s, it doesn’t matter. You have to actually believe that there’s other opportunities for you.

I think a lot of pharmacies get stuck in that, “No, I have a B or an RPH, and this is just what my life is going to be. I’m going to be counting pills forever.” I’ve never had that, so to some degree, I have a hard time connecting with those people too, because I’m like, “Wait, why do you think there’s so many opportunities here? Go here, go LinkedIn, go look at all these different people, all across the world doing really radical life changing things with the same accolades and the same degrees that we have.

[00:27:04] TU: Yeah. I think to that point, if one can’t visualize what could be and if one can’t affirm themselves in that role or that being possible for them, that’s going to come through and how you approach every day. If you do end up pursuing a career change or a job interview, or you’re going to pursue all of it with that fixed-mindset as you’re describing it.

[00:27:25] AKH: Don’t give me wrong. Self-doubt, it’s definitely, it’s still there.

[00:27:29] TU: 100%.

[00:27:30] AKH: It’s okay to have somewhat limiting beliefs. It’s okay to have, I don’t like to say imposter syndrome, but it’s okay to not feel like you’re good enough. You have to commit to taking steps to get through that mindset. It’s for me it’s taken many, many, many years. I’m still working on it. There’s still things that freak me out that I’m like there’s no way I’m going to do that. There’s no way that people will do that with me either. I think if you have courage and if you have like Chris said, the right people around you and just a tad bit of strategy that I love teaching. I think that’s what matters the most.

[00:28:03] TU: I love it. Great, great stuff, you guys. Chris, for those that are listening that want to publish their own book, it’s something I hear a lot among pharmacists and other health care professionals as a goal that they have. Talk to us more about the process that you guys went through –

[00:28:19] AKH: Me just tagging him.

[00:28:20] TU: Why self-publish versus working with the publisher to tell us more about that journey.

[00:28:25] CC: Yeah. Ashlee, was definitely my guide on this.

[00:28:31] AKH: No, it was just more like, “Chris. I need this. Chris need that.”

[00:28:34] CC: Since she had already gone through the process, she knew the buttons to press, technically to do the publishing. One takeaway is that the actual route of getting words once you have them into book form isn’t that difficult. The hardest part is obviously getting the words there in the first place. If something’s stopping you, because you don’t know how difficult it’s going to be to self-publish that is very achievable. Again, Ashlee did a lot of the legwork on that, but from what I’ve seen and the way that she’s spoken about it, I know that it’s very doable and it was quicker than what I had even expected after we got in the words on the paper. But that was the part of the process that was the most time consuming and then editing and refining and making it tell the narrative that you wanted to tell in the format that you want to do that in.

Which I think goes into, why we wrote the book the way that we did. A big point that Ashlee and I both feel is that we’re stewards of the book since we have our passages, but then there’s also 50+ people that have their passages as well. It’s just as much their book as it is ours, which is for one of the reasons why we’re looking into making partnerships with organizations like AMCP to be able to donate any of the profits from the book to support student pharmacists and use this as not a vector that brings a ton to Ashlee and myself, but more of a way that it can be an evergreen novel and ever-evolving advice that is for the profession of pharmacy and that it’s as simple as that and not for anybody else.

[00:30:27] AKH: Yeah, and just to piggyback off that, Chris and I met four years ago on LinkedIn, I think, or some social media –

[00:30:33] CC: Yeah.

[00:30:34] AKH: We actually got to meet in person at AMCP. I was giving a keynote and Chris was a student. Tim, going back to your question of Chris, how have you become so wise and where does this come from? I plucked him out from the group and I could tell early on that he’s really smart, but also he’s a very, very good heart and really good intentions. Those are my favorite kind of people. So we’ve kept in touch over the years, and I’ve always begged Chris, to do some type of collaboration with me. I was like, “Let’s just do something we both love pharmacy and we both want to give back.”

Finally I told him, I was like, “Chris, I’m pregnant. It is done. We have to do it now or it’s never going to happen.” He promised me that we would do something before that in my pregnancy, and it’s coming, so we did it right in time. It was just the best project, Chris and then I couldn’t have asked for a better, more supportive partner to do this with. It’s been fun.

[00:31:32] TU: I love it, because I think that from my experiences while writing, when you find the right co-author and the right person in your jiving on the same page, it really is a rewarding experience. There’s accountability of course, it comes as a benefit. Ashlee, you’ve been through this before, you authored, Influential Dad, Empowered Daughter. We’ll be waiting for book number three.

[00:31:52] AKH: My goal is to write, once you get writing –

[00:31:55] TU: Fun.

[00:31:55] AKH: Well personally, my personal experience is once you get writing. I blogged for several years before this, so it’s not I’m a new writer-ish. Writing a book is totally different mindset, but once you get the bug, and once you see the impact, and once you see your contribution to the universe, and how people are writing to you from all over the world, and just how much you’ve touched them, how much you’ve challenged them, how much you’ve changed their perspective. Connections, the especial with this book, there’s a lot of people who are reading the book and then going out and connecting with all the different leaders and all different influencers, which is the goal of the book.

It really just for me personally, it motivates me to keep going. So I’m in the process even though Chris and I just published our last book, I don’t know, a couple of weeks ago. I already have a new book in mind. I already – my goal is to write it off open which I’m really, let’s see if that happens. Hold me accountable, Chris. For me, it’s like a bug. It’s like how can I help more people and how can I share my niche and my expertise with more people? Because again, like Chris said, once you write one, you understand the technicalities.

Now going the other route, the publisher getting a book agent doing all that, I’ve never done, but it is on my bucket list, but self-publishing is honestly just it’s for me personally, it’s been really valuable just to get your word into the world.

[00:33:17] TU: I love that. I would encourage both of you, because I feel very strongly that when you’re writing or sharing in another medium in a way that’s having an impact on others, you have a responsibility to keep doing it, if it’s having an impact. So I look forward to continuing to follow both of you in the journey. For folks that want to pick up a copy of Own Your PharmD, Own Your Career: Real Life Advice from 50+ Pharmacy Leaders and Influencers, you can pick it up on Amazon. Chris, Ashlee, thank you both so much for not only putting this together, but also for coming on and having this discussion. I appreciate your time.

[00:33:52] AKH: Yeah. Tim, we didn’t really talk about your foreword. I mean, you wrote a great foreword, too, for us. When Chris and I started working on the book, I was like, “Tim has to be person.” Then you guys officially met and Chris and I were like, “Oh, yeah, Tim’s definitely – ” You have such a great voice in the profession and you’re such an advocate and I mean, you fit right in with all of these other interviewers that we’ve been doing, and we both just really admire your work and appreciate the opportunity to connect with you. Thanks for taking the time to write such a great foreword. It was powerful. Even if you just read the foreword, I thought, I was like, “Oh, my gosh, this is really good.” So it was good.

[00:34:25] TU: Well, thanks for the opportunity. I was humbled to be able to do it, so it’s fun to be a part of it. Again, read it when it all came together. Congratulations to you guys and thanks again for joining.

[00:34:35] AKH: Thank you.

[00:34:35] CC: Thanks for having us.

[OUTRO]

[00:34:36] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, let’s hear an important message from our sponsor, Insuring Income. If you are in the market to add own occupation disability insurance, term life insurance or both. Insuring Income would love to be a resource. Insuring Income has relationships with all of the high quality disability insurance and life insurance carriers you should be considering and can help you design coverage to best protect you and your family.

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information to the podcasts and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward-looking statements which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 254: Home Buying Search: What to Do and What to Avoid

Posted on by yfpadmin

Home Buying Search: What to Do and What to Avoid

Nate Hedrick, The Real Estate RPh and co-host of the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast, discusses evaluating online home listings, why open houses exist, how real estate agents get paid, and how the home buying concierge service he developed can help first-time homebuyers.

Episode Summary

Searching for a house to buy can be overwhelming, particularly in today’s fast-paced market. There are several tools for potential home buyers to help them navigate the process, but these can often be confusing. This week, Your Financial Pharmacist Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, welcomes back Nate Hedrick, the Real Estate RPh and co-host of the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast, to discuss what to do and what to avoid in the home buying process. Nate shares four areas you should evaluate when reviewing home listings on the MLS or various real estate sites like Redfin, Zillow, or Realtor.com. He also gives insight into the real reason for an open house, why he prefers private viewings over open houses, how agents get paid, and why it is in your best interest to have your own agent. Listeners will hear some common-sense advice for homebuyers in the current market, general advice on making an offer, the purpose of signing in when visiting an open house, and what to do when asked who your agent is during a viewing. Lastly, Nate explains how the YFP Real Estate Concierge Service works with clients from the beginning to the end of the real estate buying process for first-time buyers and investors.

Key Points From This Episode

The resources that prospective buyers can use to search for homes.
Nate gives us an outline of the Multiple Listing Service (MLS).
What to look out for when viewing listings.
Being able to react quickly to the market to secure a purchase.
Steps to take when viewing a property listing.
The purpose of signing in when viewing a house
What to do when asked about an agent.
Advice on what to do when making an offer.
Rules and regulations regarding listing and buying agents.
The benefits of using a real estate agent when home buying.
A brief rundown of the YFP Real Estate Concierge Service.
Some of the challenges that first-time homebuyers are experiencing.
The best time to start the home buying process.

Highlights

“The things that are missing can be just as evident from the things that are present. Look at those pictures, but also look at what’s not in the pictures.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:07:11]

“I recommend doing a private showing. It’s a great way to get into the house early so that you can really take things on quickly and you can take your time.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:11:32]

“I’ve seen situations where it saves the buyer thousands of dollars because a real estate agent catches something or knows how to ask for something really important.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:17:26]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TU: Hey, everybody, Tim Ulbrich here. Thank you for listening to the YFP podcast, where each week we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom. This week I had a chance to welcome back a friend of the show, Nate Hedrick, the real estate and RPH and co-host of the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast. Some of my favorite moments from the show include hearing Nate describe the four areas you should be evaluating when reviewing home listings on the MLS or various sites like Redfin, Zillow, or Realtor.com.

The real reason open houses exist and why a private showing is preferred over an open house. How the agents get paid and why is the buyer’s in your best interest to have your own agent? How the home buying concierge service that Nate developed can help a first time homebuyer navigate the process from beginning to end? Folks can learn more about their concierge service and get connected with a local agent by visiting yourfinancialpharmacist.com, and then click on Home buying at the top of the page.

Before we jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP Planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 households in 40 plus states. YFP Planning offers fee only high touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about how working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether or not YFP Planning, financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacies achieve financial freedom. Okay. Here’s my interview with Nate Hedrick, the Real Estate RPH.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:42] TU: Nate, welcome back to the show.

[00:01:43] NH: Hey, Tim, always good to be here.

[00:01:45] TU: You and I both know that searching for a house can be an overwhelming process. I’ve gone through the process twice, to be honest. As exciting as it was at times, it was stressful. Not sure I really want to do it again. But here’s the thing. on one hand, we have great access to data, right? With services like Zillow, Redfin, I’m a fan, realtor.com that pulls information from the Multiple Listing Service, the MLS all over the country. But on the other hand, there’s not a lot of direction on what to do with all that information. What’s important? How do I schedule showing? When is the next open house? How do I submit an offer? So today we’re bringing you back on the show to talk and walk us through how to navigate all of this.

Before we jump in to our interview, I want to make sure to remind our listeners that there are some really important financial steps that you should be taking to make sure you’re actually ready to purchase a home, before we go down the rabbit hole that can be searching. So Nate put together a great article on how to manage buying a house despite having student loan debt. We’re going to link to that in the show notes, that was on the YFP blog. We’ve done a few podcast episodes dating way back to September 2018, where we talked through six steps to buying a home. That was a two part series. We did episode 64 and 65. Again, we’ll link to those in the show notes.

These articles, these episodes are really important that we’re laying the foundation. Are we ready before we get into the search? So Nate, let’s assume our listeners have done that up front work. They’re preapproved with a lender and now they’re actually ready to search. Of course there are sites like Zillow and Redfin, but are those the best places to search for homes?

[00:03:23] NH: Yeah. I mean those sites are fine and really great in many cases, but one of the problems with those sites is that they can be out of date, right? So what those sites do, in effect as they pull data, like you mentioned, they pull data from the Multiple Listing Service, which is really the source of truth, and it’s updated by real estate agents. Until those sites are updated the sites like Zillow and Redfin can’t pull the new data. Sometimes they do that scraping slowly and sometimes they do it more quickly.

I have seen examples multiple, multiple times, where clients have reached out and said, “Oh, Nate, can we go look at this place? It looks gorgeous. I saw that. It just came on the market.” Three days ago it was pending, but the site, for whatever reason, didn’t grab that MLS data and update it. But as soon as I logged in, I could actually see that the information. So the sites are awesome for doing up front searches looking at history. They’re very good at looking backward at historical data of what has sold, but truthfully, if you want to get up to the minute true information, you need to get an agent who can get you access to the MLS, so that you can get that data directly.

[00:04:18] TU: Yeah. I remember Nate, I’m sure all agents do this differently, back in 2009, when Jess and I moved to northeast Ohio, working with an agent. They have an MLS portal that we could log in and review in, just seeing the differences, as you mentioned, between that and realtor.com, Redfin, where we’d be really excited about a property contingent and it was already, had been sold. Before we go further, we throw on MLS a lot. Can you just break that down a little bit further? What is the MLS? Obviously, that’s going to be an important piece of what we’re talking about here today.

[00:04:46] NH: Yeah. The MLS is, like I said, the Multiple Listing Service. What this is, is basically an agreement between the brokerage is of a particular area or a particular state. The MLS is divided inter into regions, right? So they can be the entire state, they can be just a large city area. It depends on where you’re located. Basically, the brokerages or the Real Estate Association is within that area have gotten together and said, “We agree to share data between our brokerages and the MLS is how we’re going to share that data.” So brokerages will upload information directly into this database that’s managed by an independent organization and that organization puts out that information for everyone to be able to access. Again, what that allows other real estate agents and professionals to do is to look at that information in real-time so that decisions can be made much more quickly.

[00:05:31] TU: Nate, as you mentioned, sites like Zillow, sites Redfin, sites realtor.com, those are pulling from the MLS, correct?

[00:05:38] NH: Correct. They have some agreement in place where they can, again, scrape that data from the MLS and then show it in whatever way they like to.

[00:05:44] TU: Nate, I think all of us can relate to pulling up a listing, and browsing pictures from our couch, but there are important things that people should be looking for when they’re digging through a listing. Talk about what are those things that folks should be looking for?

[00:05:58] NH: Yeah, absolutely. It’s just pulling up a patient profile before rounds, right? There’s a ton of data to sort through, and it can be important to narrow things down. Like you said, it’s really easy to sit there and just look at the pictures upfront and dream about being in that particular house, but there’s actually a lot of great data there. If you understand what’s available to you, you can glean a lot of information from it. I’ll break it down, four main categories. I think this is how we can do this.

The first is the obvious one, right? The pictures and the video, you can use this information for a lot of things. It’s not just looking at the cosmetics, but you can also look for things like, are there obvious problems? For example, is the roof look like from the photos that it has problems or is there damage within the property that you can see in the photos? Sometimes it’s not just what’s being included, but it’s what’s excluded as well. Just like a missing lab value might tell you more than the myriad of in-range results that you get for a particular patient.

Pictures that are missing can be really telling too. If they say they’ve got a four-bedroom, three bathhouse, but there’s only one picture of one updated bathroom, it starts to make you wonder, “Well, what’s going on with those other two?” Is one of them hidden in the basement somewhere and never been updated in the other ones full of wallpaper that totally out of date. The things that are missing can be just as evident from the things that are present.

Look at those pictures, but also look at what’s not in the pictures. Then like I mentioned before, if you’re getting access to the MLS, a lot of times you’ll see brokers or real estate agents posting video walkthroughs. A lot of times the sites like Zillow and Redfin and things like that can’t pull that data or may not have access to those videos. So asking your agent, “Hey, can you give me access or is there a video of a walkthrough?” You can get that directly to the MLS, that’s the first one.

The next thing you want to look at is your stats, right? These are all of your basic information about that house, everything from bedroom and bathroom count like I mentioned. Things like square footage above and below grade and seeing where that information is coming from is really important too, right? Even as I go to list a property, the seller might say, “Yeah, this is four bedrooms, here are the four bedrooms, you can count them. But if the county records indicate that it’s only a three-bedroom house, or it’s been certified as a three-bedroom house through whatever past history, that fourth bedroom might either not be in the records for a very good reason, or it might actually not count as a bedroom. So again, think about that data and where it’s coming from.

The other things you’ll see is things the year that the house was built, and that can help you look at things like, okay, well if it was built before 1978 for example, there might be lead-based paint in the house. So I need to start thinking about that. If it was still before 1950s, there might be knob-and-tube wiring. So the year that it was built can tell you a lot as well. The last thing you want to look for there is things like the heating and cooling types. Some people depending on your area, this can be much more important than in certain locations, but understanding what type of heating is in that property. Does it have an air conditioner? Does it have a boiler? Does it have whatever? All that can be listed right there for you. It can provide you a lot of information.

The next data point to look for is the government data. So these are things usually displayed by the county that is listed on these websites and through the MLS, and that’s everything from school district, the property taxes. You can actually look at property lines and the parcel itself. You should be able to determine zoning from this. You can see if it’s zoned residential or mixed-use or commercial. Then again, like I said, past sales or rent prices will be listed there as well. That’s all through usually the county website and available.

Then that fourth piece is really the narrative. This is the, again, the physician’s notes. If it were our patient example, but it’s what’s included with the property, it’s what the seller wanted to tell you about it. It’s how they’re trying to sell it. Things disclosures from the listing description or brokers notes that can be available for the MLS again. So there’s a lot of pieces that you can look for on just what seems like a simple place to check out pictures.

[00:09:39] TU: Nate that was great stuff. You talked about for pictures and the video, the stats, the government data, the narrative. As you were talking, I was envisioning. That has to be a great way to set up a spreadsheet and record this information. My question, though, is with today’s market, analyzing all this information, really doing due diligence like things are moving quickly, though, right?

[00:09:56] NH: Yeah.

[00:09:57] TU: I think that’s one of the challenges in today’s market is making sure we have all the information, obviously, to be comfortable, to feel confident moving forward, but things are moving and getting the information that we need, but also being able to react quickly.

[00:10:09] NH: Making sure that you’re not making a mistake by reacting too quickly, right? So if you’re looking for a particular school district and it’s on the street that you’ve been looking at before, but you skip the government data and you skip the fact that it’s actually across the street, and that’s a different school district that could have huge ramifications on price and everything that goes along with it, taxes especially. So knowing where those pieces of information are upfront, so that you can move quickly is super important.

[00:10:33] TU: Nate, we dig through all of the background information. We found a house or several homes that we like want to look at. How do we go see the property? What’s the strategy here?

[00:10:42] NH: Yeah. So there’s generally two options to see a property, I guess. Three, I’ll talk to all three, but basically, the most common one that people think of, I think more often than not is an open house, right? Where you’re going to have the listing agent present, the doors are open, the house is vacant, and you’ve got the ability to walk through that with everybody else. I think the classic example of this is come by Sunday at 2:00 and there’s 30 cars in the driveway and you’re touring it with everybody else. Usually, those open houses will be again on the weekends and in the listing description or somewhere on the website you’ll be able to see when that open house or when the next open house will be.

If it’s not listed, they either might not have one or it might be not something that the data was able to be scraped on. So make sure that you ask your agent, “Is there going to be an open house?” But that’s only one way to go see the house, right? You have virtual showings as well. Or you could do private showing, where you can set up through the either listing agent or through your own agent to go see the house on your own time, and on your own terms.

Generally speaking, I recommend doing a private showing. It’s a great way to get into the house early so that you can really take things on quickly and you can take your time, right? You’re not shuffling around other people. You’re not trying to debate who else might be putting in an offer. You’re really spending the time that you need to evaluate. Is this the property for me? Again, in most cases, your agent can get that set up for a time that’s convenient for you. So rather than forcing it into Sunday at 2:00, you could do it at 8:00 at night or 7:00 at night after you’ve done the long working day. So lots of options with that.

[00:12:04] TU: Yeah. There’s nothing some pressure, right Nate? When you’re walking around open house and ten, 20 other people are looking at the house, you start to feel like, I got to act quickly –

[00:12:11] NH: Exactly, exactly.

[00:12:12] TU: Nate, I remember going to open houses in the past and one of the first things that they would have me do is sign in and then they would ask if I have an agent. Honestly, I never really thought much about that. So tell us more about what’s going on there. What am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to say in that situation?

[00:12:29] NH: Yeah. Your best bet is just to be honest, right? This not a test or them trying to figure out if you’re supposed to be there. If it’s an open house, you are absolutely supposed to be there, right? Even if you’re not a qualified buyer, the whole point of an open house is to come look, so that’s okay. The best thing you can do is to be honest on that and what the agent is trying to do there. It’s one of the worst kept secrets of the real estate industry, is that open houses are not actually to sell a house. I know that sounds counterintuitive, but truthfully, in age of the Internet, they get plenty of marketability by just putting it on the MLS and letting Zillow and everybody else see it, right?

What the open house is designed to do is to drum up business for that real estate agent. So what they’re doing is they’re saying, “If you, Tim, are come into my open house and you’re ready to buy and you’re looking at houses in this area, but you don’t have an agent to work with, well, then you’re the perfect client for me,” right? “I can help you. I know clearly this area. I’m already working here and I’ve got a listing. I’d love to help you out with that.” So what we’re doing as agents when we’re holding it open house is trying to show the property, certainly, but more often than not, that agent is there to drum up their own business and try to create opportunities for themselves.

[00:13:34] TU: Nate, I go to the open house, I love the house. How do I make an offer? Well, using that listing agent save me money? Will that help in the negotiations?

[00:13:42] NH: Yeah. A lot of people assume this right, where, “I’ll use the listing agent, because then I’ll save money. I won’t have my own agent.” So there it is, but let me explain a little bit about how an agent is paid. I think that will dispel that myth. I’ll say this, there are times where that can be the case where it can save you something on commission, but the reality is not very often. So the way that the typical commission is paid is that the seller sits down with the listing agent and they agree on a price. They basically say, “Okay, I’m going to list your house for you. Here’s all the things that I’m going to do in terms of marketing, in terms of exposure, in terms of open houses. For doing all of that, when the house sells, I need you to pay me 6%.”

That might be high. That might be low. It totally depends on your area and the property that you’re talking about and the price point and all that. Let’s just assume it’s 6%. Well, that 6% then get split between the selling agent and the buying agent. So the person that actually brings a buyer to the property. So typically it’s a 50/50 split, 3% going to the listing agent, 3% going to the buyer. So if I come as a buyer with no agent whatsoever now all of a sudden that 6% doesn’t have to be split. What happens most often is that agent that’s listing the property simply keeps the 6%. It’s already been agreed upon, it’s already been signed by the seller. They don’t have to reduce that price at all.

You could, in theory negotiate with them to say, “Hey, if I don’t use an agent, can we get this down to 5%? Or can you take 1% off your commission or something like that?” That may work, but what you’re missing is that you don’t have an agent representing your best interest. The goal of that listing agent is to sell that property for as much as possible, because they’re representing their sellers interests. There are a lot of great real estate agents out there that will do their absolute best to split that difference between representing the buyer and the seller, but the reality is that they negotiated and worked at that seller first, and they have an obligation to treat them as best they can to get them the best price.

It can look like a savings, because you’re taking 1% off the commission or whatever, but if you don’t have an agent advocating for you, looking for the things that that agent isn’t there to help you look for, you might miss out on something even greater than that 1%, and it’s totally not even worth it.

[00:15:47] TU: Nate, does this vary from state-to-state? I’m not sure of the rules here of whether or not I don’t know what the term is dual representation, but of where someone’s acting is both the buying and the selling. I remember signing disclosures confirming that that wasn’t happening, talk to us more about what is or is not allowed here, and whether or not that very state-to-state.

[00:16:03] NH: Yeah. There’s a couple pieces here that we can break down. The first is whether or not that agent is actually representing you. So what you’re referring to is called dual agency, where that agent is representing both the buyer and the seller in a transaction. That idea of dual agency is allowed in some states, it’s not allowed in others. Some brokerages actually have a restriction on that. The broker was saying, “Look, we will never be a dual agent and here’s why.” But it’s permissible in a lot of areas. The other option or the other more likely scenario is that you’re going to be unrepresented. So you are coming in as a customer, not a client. So the agent that is selling the property represents the seller. They are not representing you in the transaction at all. They are simply helping you through it. So you’re a customer, not a client.

Again, I think understanding what that relationship is, if you are going to enter into an agreement like that and knowing what that means for you in terms of, “Are you actually my agent or are you simply an agent of the seller and helping me through the transaction?”

[00:16:57] TU: Nate, it sounds like having an agent’s a win-win better representation on your end as a buyer and doesn’t cost you anything, am I reading that, right?

[00:17:04] NH: Yeah. I mean, as long as you have the right agent on your team, someone that knows the market, what to look for, knows how to represent you in negotiations. Navigating the contracts like that is somebody that is a really important asset to you. As agents, we walk through these property deals all the time. You might be a first time homebuyer and have never done this before. So having somebody on your team that knows how to navigate all those pieces, they can be dramatically important. I mean, I’ve seen situations where it saves the buyer thousands of dollars, because a real estate agent catches something or knows how to ask for something really important.

I just had a situation come up recently with a buyer. It came back that there was a leak, it was a pretty simple leak, but it was at the water main of the house where it came in from the city. So the inspector said, “Yeah, this needs to be fixed. It’s leaking right now. It’s probably going to be a couple hundred bucks to fix it.” At first the buyer said, “Well, okay, that’s fine. I’ll just handle it myself when I buy the property.” But I said, “Well, hold on. This is a leak that is active, meaning that it has the potential to get worse. Meaning it could damage the property.” So this is something that the seller should address right away. “I’ll get this taken care of for you.” A quick phone call to the agent, and they agreed like that to say, “Oh yeah, we’ll handle that completely.”

Only a couple hundred bucks, but something that they didn’t have to deal with after they moved in, something that protected the property from getting worse and something that, again, going unrepresented, the buyer wouldn’t have bothered messing with. So having that right agent, somebody that can really advocate for you can really make the difference. Again, not to start plugging a service, but that’s exactly why we created the concierge service, the home buying concierge, because it’s designed to get you connected with really great agents that can have your best interests in mind.

[00:18:35] TU: I would encourage folks to check out episode 160 – Nate, you did an episode navigating the home buying process through the concierge service with Shelby Bannett, and Bryce Plott. I think that service really comes alive throughout that episode and the value that it has. Walk us through briefly, what is that concierge service? What value does it provide? What can folks expect and where can they go to learn more?

[00:18:55] NH: Yeah, so this all came about, because when I bought my first property, I had no idea how to find a good real estate agent, right? I just asked a friend, I Googled around and we ended up with an okay agent. It was fine. It all worked out great, but it just felt like there should be a better process to this. Again, especially if you’re somebody that’s moving out of state or to a new area, you might not know anybody there. So how do you wade through the myriad of real estate agents in finding somebody that’s actually going to be on your team? So what we created was the real estate concierge service, the whole idea being that you can sit down with me through a 30-minute prep call to really walk through your goals, your budget, what your must haves are, and starting to figure out what property you’re looking for.

Then once I’ve got that information, we’ll go out and find a real estate agent, that’s really a good fit for you, somebody that’s going to be that has the experience you need, somebody that knows the property types that you’re looking for, somebody that again is just going to be the right fit on your team, and it takes all that guesswork out of it. So again, the process is simple. You go online, you can go to yfprealestate.com, or you can go to your financialpharmacist.com/buyahome and you can tap into the book a call with Nate, and we’ll sit down and talk about what your needs are. I’ll get you connected with an agent and then you can get off and running. You can know that you’ve got somebody on your team that’s going to help you through that process.

The thing I really have been advocating for recently, too, is that it’s not just us handing off to an agent, right? I stay on your team through that whole process. I just had two emails this morning from a client who had a question. They didn’t feel like they were getting the full answer from their real estate agent. They said, “Can you just double check this for me, Nate? I want to have somebody else that knows what’s going on actually in answering this.” I confirm, “Yes, what the real estate agent is saying is accurate. Totally, you can believe them.” It gives that peace of mind behind the buying process with somebody that knows what they’re doing.

[00:20:38] TU: Yeah. I think especially for first time home buyers, right? It’s a big decision. We’re in this wild market that is, things are moving so quickly and I think just to have someone throughout process beginning and have a second opinion, examples you just gave would highly encourage folks to check that out. You’ve done an awesome job building this out.

[00:20:53] NH: Thanks.

[00:20:54] TU: Agents across the country in different areas, few different ways you can get there. Nate mentioned go to yourfinancialpharmacies.com, click on buy a home. We’ll link to that in the show notes. You can get a yfprealestate.com, so it’s not just for primary residence, for those that are looking at investing in real estate and finding an investor friendly agent also really, really important. Or you can go to realestaterph.com and that will all point you to the same place, which is a conversation with Nate. We’ll link to all of those in the show notes.

Nate, before we wrap up. Got to pick your brain every time that we talk about home buying in the last, seems since the pandemic. Each month it brings a different angle, different know, right? Here we are. Believe it or not, I seen interest rate on 30 year fixed mortgages starting to creep up closer, and closer, and closer to 5%. That is hard to believe when we look back in the middle of the pandemic, we were seeing 30 year fixed rates below 3% for a period of time. I remember back to October 2018 when we bought our home that was in the four or six ranges fixed rates on a 30 year mortgage and I thought maybe we’re not going to see that high again and here we are.

We’ve got now continued supply and demand issues. We’ve got more buyers and there are properties that are out there, and now we’ve got rates that are creeping up, so I think this affordability of home for first time homebuyers is becoming more and more challenging. Talk to us about what you’re seeing and what are some of the challenges the folks are facing.

[00:22:16] NH: Yeah. I think there’s a lot that goes into this, right? I think the biggest thing like you said, is the affordability, because if you’re all of a sudden jumping up a percentage point in rate, that could be a couple of hundred bucks. It could be even more depending on your market. So it can really start to affect, okay, well, what house can I afford? If people are going to be offering over asking price and competing with offers 20, 30, $40,000 over asking, that is going to start to go away, I think, as these interest rates climb even further. It doesn’t mean that the houses are unaffordable, but I think you’re going to start to see a shift back down.

I do want you to keep in mind too, in perspective, the interest rates we have today even if it is five, even 6% over the historical average, that’s still really, really low. It’s still below what inflation was in the last six months right? So historically, that’s not bad. It’s just when you compare that to the last two years, it feels like we’re in this state of, “Oh, my gosh, we’re really on these rising rates and it’s never going to end.” So put that in a little bit of historical perspective for yourself before getting too nervous. But I do think we’re going to start to see a shift in the market as a result of these changes.

[00:23:15] TU: Nate, one last question I have for you. If I’m someone listening and ready, I’m looking now versus, hey I’m thinking about this over the next three to six to 12 months. When is the right time to potentially connect with you and ultimately get connected with an agent?

[00:23:26] NH: Yeah. I think there’s never a bad time to connect with me. I think the best time is probably when you’re around six months out or sooner. I mean, it can be, you’re ready right now when you’re ready to look and we just are having look, we need a good agent or it can be again, we’re six months away, and I want to start planning ahead. If you’re before that, it’s probably a bit early to connect with an agent, but it’s a great time to start thinking about your overall finances, your budget, all the other things that we’ve talked about in the past about getting ready to buy a home. So once you get to that point where you’re in the ready state, that’s a great time to connect with me. Even if you’re not actively looking, we can start to talk through goals, objectives, things that are going to help you make that process that much easier.

[00:24:03] TU: Great stuff, Nate, as always. Really appreciate your insights to the YFP community and taking the time to come on the show. Thank you so much.

[00:24:09] NH: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Tim.

[OUTRO]

[00:24:11] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast and important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and is not intended provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information to the podcasts and corresponding material should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog posts and podcasts is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analyses expressed herein are solely those of Your Financial Pharmacist unless otherwise noted, and constitute judgments as of the dates publish. Such information may contain forward looking statements that are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward-looking statements.

For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacists.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 253: YFP Planning Case Study #1: Growing a Family, Paying Off Student Loans, and Buying a House

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YFP Planning Case Study #1: Growing a Family, Paying Off Student Loans, and Buying a House

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, YFP Co-Founder & Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, CFP®, RLP® is joined by YFP Planning Lead Planners, Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA® and Robert Lopez, CFP® to walk you through a financial planning case study on growing a family, paying off student loans, and buying a house.

About Today’s Guests

Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA®

Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA® is a Lead Planner at YFP Planning. She enjoys time with her husband and two sons, riding her bike, running, and keeping after her pup ‘Fred Rogers.’ Kelly loves to cheer on her favorite team, plan travel, and ironically loves great food but does not enjoy cooking at all. She volunteers in her community as part of the Chambersburg Rotary. Kelly believes that there are no quick fixes to financial confidence, and no guarantees on investment returns, but there is value in seeking trusted advice to get where you want to go. Kelly’s mission is to help clients go confidently toward their happy place.

Robert Lopez, CFP®

Robert Lopez, CFP®, is a Lead Planner at YFP Planning. Along with his team members, Kimberly Bolton, CFP®, and Savannah Nichols, he helps YFP Planning clients on their financial journey to live their best lives. To go along with his CFP® designation, Robert has a B.S. in Finance and an M.S. in Family Financial Planning. Prior to his career in financial planning, Robert worked as an Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technician in the United States Air Force. Although no longer on active duty, he still participates as a member of the Air Force Reserves. When not working, Robert enjoys being outdoors, playing co-ed volleyball and kickball, catching a game of ultimate frisbee, or hiking with his wife Shirley, young son Spencer, and their dogs, Meeko and Willow.

Episode Summary

Welcome to our very first YFP Planning case study. In this episode, YFP Co-Founder & Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, CFP®, RLP® is joined by YFP Planning Lead Planners, YFP Planning Lead Financial Planner, Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA® and Robert Lopez, CFP® to walk through a case study featuring fictitious clients facing real-life scenarios like growing their family, paying off student loans, and buying a home. While the Jones family may be made-up clients, their financial scenarios, facts, and goals resemble common areas of focus and concern for many long-term YFP Planning clients. Kelly and Robert detail the various options and information pertaining to the financial plan of our fictitious clients, the Jones family, laying out all of the case study client earnings, expenses, debt, and goals. The team discusses potential client considerations for the financial plan regarding student loan repayment and their growing family. Kelly and Robert touch on everything from PSLF to wealth protection, speculating the necessity of a whole life policy, and the advantages of a joint credit card. This behind-the-scenes look at YFP Planning will provide insight and understanding of what goes on at YFP Planning, plus a comprehensive analysis and education on the financial picture for the Jones family.

Key Points From This Episode

Introducing YFP Lead Planners, Kelly Reddy-Heffner and Robert Lopez.
Describing the fictitious family of today’s case study: Jason and Lauren Jones.
The Joneses’ earnings, expenses, and debt.
Their goals and concerns.
How their cash position fits in the context of their goals and debt.
The question of whether or not to go the PSLF route.
The tendency to get caught up emotionally without considering the mathematics.
How the Joneses should tackle the wealth-protection aspect of their financial planning.
Speculation of whether a whole life policy is necessary.
The benefits of having one joint credit card per family.
What the Joneses should consider with regards to the mortgage conversation.
The power of financial planning.
The wealth-building opportunities for the Joneses’ emergency fund.
The ideal amount to put aside as an emergency fund.
Investment options and recommendations.
How to approach college education funds.
The future prospects of a supplemental income for the Joneses.

Highlights

“[PSLF] is a huge conversation both emotionally and mathematically to work through.” — Robert Lopez, CFP® [0:13:39]

“There are very rare circumstances where a whole life policy is cost-effective and really necessary in the planning process.” — Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA® [0:19:32]

“The power of financial planning is that process of planning.” — Robert Lopez, CFP® [0:23:44]

“Tying in a specific amount to a specific goal is very important.” — Kelly Reddy-Heffner, CFP®, CSLP®, CDFA® [0:26:47]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] TB: You’re listening to your Financial Pharmacist podcast, a show all about inspiring you, the pharmacy professional, on your path towards achieving financial freedom. Hi, I’m Tim Baker. Today we’re changing things up with a new type of episode. I sit down with YFP Lead Planners, Kelly Reddy-Heffner and Robert Lopez, to walk through a case study of a fictitious family, the Joneses.

Although the Joneses are not an actual couple we work with, they’re really a composite of clients we do work within reality. The first part of the discussion we lay the groundwork of the Jones’ jobs, salary situation, and where they live. We walk through their net worth and point out important elements of their financial situation. We also talk about their goals and what they’re trying to achieve.

We then talk through, how we would approach the Jones’ financial plan as if they were real clients. This is a bit of a behind-the-scenes look at what goes on at YFP planning. I hope you enjoy this episode, but first, let’s hear from our sponsor, and then we’ll jump in at the show.

[00:00:57] ANNOUNCER: This week’s podcast episode is brought to you by Insuring Income. Insuring Income is your source for all things term life insurance and own occupation-disability insurance. Insuring Income has a relationship with America’s top-rated term life insurance and disability insurance companies so that pharmacists like you can easily find the best solutions for your personal situation. To better serve you, Insuring Income reviews all applicable carriers in the marketplace for your desired coverage, supports clients in all 50 states, and makes sure all of your questions get answered. To get quotes and apply for term life or disability insurance, see sample contracts from disability carriers or learn more about these topics, visit insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist. Again, that’s insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:48] TB: What’s up, everybody? Welcome to our first YFP planning case study. This is a new concept that the team at YFP planning is going to test out. We want to launch these, I think at least once per quarter and the idea behind this concept for both the podcast and video that will be shown on YouTube is to give you a look behind the scenes of a fictitious client that we are going to work through and look at, various information regarding to their financial plan, their goals.

The idea is to give you a behind the scenes of how we would handle these fictitious clients in terms of giving them some thoughts and ideas behind their financial plan. Today I am joined by our two lead planners, Kelly Reddy-Heffner and Robert Lopez and in a second here, we’re going to go through the fact pattern on our first case, the Joneses. It’ll take us a little bit of time to go through all the different facts of the case and then we’re basically going to have an open table discussion of how we would approach this particular client. We’ll do — this client is fictitious, but it’s based on a group of clients that we worked with over the years in terms of some of the planning challenges that they face. We’re going to have a variety of type of clients that we’ll talk with as we roll out this series. Hey, guys, welcome to our first case study. How is things going in your neck of the woods, Kelly?

[00:03:12] KRH: It’s going well. It’s good to be back to doing some planning after the tax season. So happy to be talking about a case study.

[00:03:20] TB: Yes. Yes. Tax season is behind us. I guess we can say that at least the deadline is. It was an eventful tax season, no doubt. How about you, Robert? How have things going on, your end of things?

[00:03:31] RL: Well, we’re already in the nineties out here in Arizona, so we’re doing our best to make sure the AC doesn’t die on us.

[00:03:37] TB: Yeah, please. Especially with Spencer, make sure he’s nice and cool. It’s funny, we were just talking about this yesterday, 45 degrees in Columbus, Ohio, yesterday. I think this weekend is going to be 85, so that is the weather of the season. All right, so I’m going to share my screen here and for those of you on the podcast, you won’t be able to actually see us. We’re going to talk through this. If you’re watching the video, obviously, you’ll be able to follow along. Robert is going to kick us off on the high-level facts. Then I will get into the network statement and then Kelly is going to finish us off and talk about goals and some of the other miscellaneous. Robert, the screen is shared, why don’t you kick us off here?

[00:04:15] RL: Yeah. Just waiting for that screen to load up on my page. Today we’re going to be talking about the Joneses, and so to try to keep up here is Lauren and Jason Jones. They’re both 33 years old. Lauren is a clinical pharmacist working at a public hospital. Jason is an Electrical Engineer. Then six months ago, they welcomed their daughter Lucy into the world.

Lauren earns $118,000 at her main job and then has a side hustle with supplements where she does $10,000 regularly. Jason is getting 112,000 from the Electrical Engineering Firm. He filed the taxes, married filing jointly. They are living in wonderful Dallas, Texas. Their gross income combined is $240,000. That breaks down to about $20,000 a month. Then after their taxes and contributions to the cafeteria plan or retirement savings and insurance, now they bring home about $14,200 a month and then they get chopped up in their expenses.

They have fixed expenses of roughly $7500, variable expenses that can change from month to month or above $3600. Then their savings target right now is about $2700 a month. They’re living in a three-bedroom single-family house that they bought a few years ago in 2018. They used an FHA loan to put 3.5% down on $295,000 home. They have a 4.25% interest rate.

[00:05:36] TB: Awesome. If you look at their net worth statement, we’re going to start on the asset side. Between checking and savings, they have about 35,000 in a joint account, 85,000 in a savings account. Then Lauren also has a CD of $10,000 that will mature in a year. When we take a look at their investments in their Roth IRA, both Lauren and Jason have Roth IRAs. She has 25,000, Jason has 15. They’re not currently contributing to this. This is an IRA, a Roth IRA that was set up with a financial advisor when Lauren was in Pharmacy School, definitely hanging out there.

403(b) Lauren has one 85,000 that she’s contributing 5% with a 3% employer match. She thinks it’s primarily in target-date funds that has about 85,000. Jason has a 401K with 55. He’s contributing 7% with a 3% match. He also has a Roth 401K or basically, he contributes into the Roth side of things and he’s in an A 20 allocation. Then he also has an old 401K from a previous employer with about 15,000. He doesn’t really know what to do with. Then Lauren has $5,000 in an HSA that she’s contributing 36.50 which is the max for a single person for the year and just sitting in cash, right now. They have the primary home that Robert talked about and they think it’s worth about 355,000 now that they own jointly.

Then if you look at the liability side of things, they do have a credit card balance of 2000 that they pay off every month. They basically use it for points for travel. They have a personal loan of 6000. It’s Lauren’s debt that’s to the bank of mom and dad, that they basically pay 0% interest and I think they put about $1,000 towards that, if I have the note right. Then in terms of long-term debt, they both have car note. Lauren has a car that has a 15,000 balance dated as 23,000. The total payment per month between the two of them was about 825. Jason’s interest rate is five and a quarter, Lauren’s is 4%. The mortgage was 272,000 left on that.

Then Lauren, like a lot of pharmacies out there, has a good amount of student loans. She has a total 170, 145 of that is in the public program and then about 25,000 in private student loans with an interest rate of 7%. You put the total assets of 695 minus their total liabilities of 480,000. That equals their net worth, which is 207,000. Positive net worth, not too shabby, net 33. Some other things that they talked about is they’re filing jointly like Robert said, but they’re doing it themselves but feel like their situation is becoming more complex, potentially converting their house to a rental. Kelly will talk about that here in a second terms of goals.

The baby, Lucy being born six months ago and then potentially looking at PSLF, they think they’re missing out on some deductions and they typically owe money, two or $3,000 each year that they don’t necessarily have a plan to save for. Kelly, walk us through the Joneses, their goals, and any other miscellaneous things that they have going on.

[00:08:40] KRH: Yeah. After we get a good idea of net worth, which, Tim, you shared with us and some of those retirement contributions and other things that they’re doing. It’s really important to understand the goals, because that frames, what we’re doing the planning for. In this case, Lauren wants to aggressively pay off the student loans but has some concerns about PSLF. Jason is in disagreement. It’s something that’s on the list to talk about. They are thinking through adding an addition to their family over the next two years. They’d like to start saving for their daughter, Lucy’s college education, but unsure where to start. Thinking through housing and if they’re going to grow their family. What does that next house look like?

They’ve added an opportunity to maybe turn their current home into a rental property and yield some recurring revenue from that. Then Jason is thinking about some career exploration, not uncommon. Of course, we’ve seen a lot of that over the past year with job changes, transitions. So thinking that through and seeing what that will do to salary. Some of the other things to think about, which also contribute to the conversation and the one that we’ll have here today is Lauren believes that she could increase her supplemental income. She’s bringing in that 10,000 now, but believes she can grow that in the future.

Lauren is also thinking through the care of her mom with the children. Sometimes we’re also worrying about her parents. So she has that on her list to consider in the planning as well. They both like to travel, so having a budget for that is important. Although not a top priority, retirement age of 65 is on the list, as a consideration as well.

[00:10:29] TB: Awesome stuff, guys. Appreciate us setting that up. I guess what would be from a job when you guys look at this fact pattern, with this particular client, the Joneses. What are some things that jump out to you that you would want to focus on and dig in and see what we could do in terms of some help with their financial situation?

[00:10:47] RL: Kelly, why would you go first?

[00:10:48] KRH: Well, I certainly would think through the cash position and how that fits in the context of the goals and some of the debt that they currently have as well. That’s a common question is, we’ve accumulated quite a bit of cash, what do we do with it? I would say that would probably be a good starting point is where does it fit with their goals versus other things that they need to accomplish on this list here.

[00:11:18] TB: Yeah. I think for me, one of the areas and this is often true with a lot of our clients, especially in around this age is, what the heck are we doing with the student loans? Right? I think as the financial planning goes, as the student loan plan goes to the rest of the financial plan. So to me, I think having that discussion with Lauren and Jason about, to PSLF or not to PSLF, right? We recently, Robert, I listened to your episode here recently about PSLF and updates, and some of the success stories around PSLF. But I think probably having a conversation about this and then supporting in this with the math to determine, does it make sense to go this route or not. What’s your thought on that, Robert, as you would walk them through this particular part of their plan?

[00:12:09] RL: Yeah. I think, it will be really important to figure out what Lauren and Jason are disagreeing about when it comes to PSLF, though she not believe that the program is going to be valid or does she not believe that her ability to earn this, basically, is she going to work in the public sector for the remainder of those ten years.

[00:12:23] TB: Yeah.

[00:12:24] RL: She’s already got 30 payments as a part of that 20. If we’re saying that this is happening currently, all 30 of those payments are happening under no dollar payments and no interest, thanks to the COVID changes. We’re already a quarter of the way there. That gives us 75% more the way I think it’s going to be too hard to pass up on the value of that. So really just reiterating that this plan works, hey, I can point to specific YFP clients. I can point to specific numbers on how many people have earned this forgiveness. I can show how you are or are not on track for your own personal forgiveness to make sure that this is a valuable thing.

That really ties into a lot of the other goals here, right. As we decide to grow the family that can decrease our payments, as we decide to maybe take a step back from a career that Jason’s getting some burnout from, that can free up some cash flow for us to live month to month. I have to worry about making really aggressive student loan payments. That does allow us to be more aggressive towards the private side. If she wants to be aggressive towards new loans, let’s pay off that 7% aggressively as opposed to something that’s at 0% right now, and could be at 0% for still a little while.

Then show what the value of that forgiveness could look like, when we’re talking [inaudible 00:13:32] the way there, $80,000 of forgiveness easily depending on what their income is going to look like going forward. I think that’s a huge conversation both emotionally and mathematically to work through.

[00:13:43] TB: Yeah. I think sometimes, we get caught up in the emotion without actually taking a look at the math. I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility, especially in this day and age with the pandemic and some of the forbearance and the relief there that if you have three years, four years, five years of $0 payments, and then if you also have one or two years that is being calculated on a residency salary that you could pay, I don’t have the numbers in front me as supportive, but you could pay $60,000 in total and that could be on 170,000, 250,000, $300,000 of debt.

When you look at that total amount of forgiveness, the amount of being forgiven is not necessarily as important in PSLF, it’s more of the amount that you paid, but if you can then minimize that by looking at more of the pretax accounts, like the 403(b) the 401K. In this case with Jason, if we’re going that route, maybe, maybe he doesn’t do the Roth, but if they file separately, which they’re not doing right now, it doesn’t necessarily really matter. But then –

[00:14:49] RL: It would, it’s a community property state for Texas –

[00:14:51] TB: Oh, Texas, yeah. You’re right, could call out. So those are the things that as when I say as the student loan goes, the rest of the plan goes, because you would argue that, you would be able to save more for the long term, but then maybe even more for the short term, whether that’s a job transitions fund, a vacation fine or something like that, because right now, she’s paying, they’re paying $2100 in student loan payments which is probably on the high side, again, probably some meat on the bone with regard to how much they’re paying in interest.

Maybe the compromise is that they just pay off the private loans more aggressively or with the cash that they have on hand, maybe they just write a check, and the private loans are gone and then they pay the minimum on the public loans. I think to me one of the things that jumps out when the fact pattern is that the two of them disagree on that, I think is probably having them both come to the table and talk through some of the maybe the angst around that. To your point, Robert, it could be I don’t think I’m going to stay at this job very long and I want to move to the private sector. That’s a completely different conversation.

I think having more of those clarifying questions to determine, hey, is this a good mathematically it absolutely makes sense in most cases, but from a career perspective, from an emotional perspective, maybe not. One of the things that we didn’t, actually we skipped over when we were talking about, that I’ll go through quickly here, when we talk about the wealth protection, we typically talk about things like insurance estate planning. One of the things to mention is that they probably were okay insurance-wise before their daughter came. I typically say, especially with life insurance, that the two thing, or two of the things that you look at is, if you have a spouse, so check in this case, if you have a house, check. Then you have mouths to feed, typically want to make sure that you have enough insurance.

Right now, Lauren has $500,000 a term policy, a 30-year term policy that she bought through the financial advisor when she was in pharmacy school, along with one times group benefit that’s 118,000, so 600 plus thousand dollars in life insurance. Jason that’s 500,000 that he also bought and then a 50,000 flat amount through his employer. They also have a small life policy that is worth the death benefit, it’s 50,000 with a negligible cash value that paying about 70 bucks a month. Then from a short-term and long-term disability, pretty common. Lauren has a 60% benefit for short-term and long-term disability it isn’t an occupation. Jason does not have any short-term disability, but he does have a long-term disability that’s an occupation for two years and then switches to any occ, until Medicare age.

We’ve talked about this on the podcast in terms of how that works and maybe something to talk about a little bit more today. Lauren doesn’t have any professional liability outside of what her employer offers. Then from a wealth protection perspective, we typically look at the estate plan and right now they don’t have any documents in place, but they’re looking at Lauren’s employer. They have a legal benefit that they would work through. If I’m asking the question of what jumps out, this is probably one of the — outside of the student loan. This would probably be the one of the next things that I would look at in terms of the wealth protection, particularly with Lucy being born six months ago.

Kelly, what’s your thoughts as you look at more of the protection stuff, which is often not necessarily at the top of everyone’s mind, especially as they’re going through a lot of these life changes. Kelly, what’s your take in terms of how they should attack this part of their financial planning?

[00:18:28] KRH: Yeah. I would agree that this is often an area that is neglected. Even at annual reviews, we sometimes see estate planning documents still on the list. I think with Lucy for sure, getting a will in place, guardianship, very important, and having that taken care of would give them a lot of peace of mind, as well. As far as insurance coverage too, once you’re a parent, it would be highly unusual to probably be under $1,000,000. If you look at the goals that you have and some of the high-level calculations like, ten times income that would certainly put both of them well over $1,000,000 in terms of need.

I do like that it is purchased outside of their workplace that it is their own policy, but I guess it would be good to take a look at the details of the policies as well. As far as whole life, we have this conversation all the time. There is very rare circumstances where a whole life policy is cost-effective and really necessary in the planning process, so that would be one of the top priorities to look at that to see about surrender charges and use that money towards something better in the plan, perhaps the difference in increasing that term policy up to the amount that would be more adequate and of course, the disability as well.

Speaking of purchasing from outside, we recommend is the gold standard having your own disability policies, the 60% is reasonable, but Jason doesn’t have that short-term disability policy at all, so then you are looking at the emergency fund. Does that cover that or does he need his own policy as well? Just really looking at the fine print in the details and seeing, should they purchase that on their own as well.

[00:20:33] TB: Yeah. You can go out and purchase a short-term disability plan, but it probably it’s typically cost-prohibitive. I would probably just had the emergency fund. He’s covered from a long term disability, but he does have that wonky definition of two years on occupation and then any occ, after that, which is a little bit [inaudible 00:20:53] you should do there if you should go out and price a different policy and carry your own or just use what the employer has.

When you look at the debt, the outside of the of the student loans Robert, what are you seeing in terms of the personal loan, the credit card, the car note, the mortgage in general? Obviously, the conversation has changed a little bit in the last couple weeks and months with interest rates and where they’re going, but if you even assessment of where they’re [inaudible 00:21:19] debt perspective, what’s that look like to you?

[00:21:23] RL: Yeah. One credit card for a family these days is a little odd. I think it’s really awesome. We did just have a client come on board that they do just have the one joint card, using that for their monthly expenses to gain those points for travel. I love it. Having those points set aside for future travel points is really going to help them. The car notes 5.25% and 4% on those loans. Those would seem a little bit high in previous years, but it’s not too far out of bounds, right now. So I’m not sure they could refinance too much out of that.

Obviously, paying those off with the delta between what they’re getting on their savings accounts is a different conversation on, and it doesn’t make sense to carry those loans, yay or nay, but those are understandable loan amounts. Student loans at 7% interest, I think we can still maybe refinance those private loans down and probably get a better rate. There’s a bunch of tools that you can use online to find better rates between all the servicers and then the mortgage at 4.25%, yeah, for having this conversation six months ago we’re like let’s refinance, let’s get out of the FHA and do a conventional. We have at least 26% or 28% of equity in the home, so that wouldn’t have PMI on another loan. With the FHA, that PMI stays on for the life of the loan and if we were to refinance right now we’d end up with a worse rate.

The conversation with the mortgage would be how serious are we about getting another house? Are we going to be able to keep it as a rental? I think, the math doesn’t really work out too well for that, because there’s only about $200 of gap between what they’re paying on their mortgage right now. If we were to refinance that gap would even shrink. But how much is it going to cost to refinance from a funding fee or any points we have to pay? How much are we going to save on a monthly rate? Are we going to reset our amortization? We are going to start back at 30 or are we going to stay basically the 26 or 25 years that we have remaining on our loan since about 2018?

We can run those numbers and say, “If we keep this house for another five years, then it doesn’t make sense. Let’s just keep our 4.5 to 5%.” But if we know we’re going to leave within the next three years, because we’re going to grow our family farther and maybe we want to get into a better school district before we start getting Lucy towards that school age, which is a really common conversation, then maybe the math does start to work out well. We could still refi now get away from that PMI and then the math is going to flush out better. That’s really just a conversation that involves a bunch of steps of what are we really think we want to do with our life, what do we really think the math says, and what decisions does that lead us to. That’s really the power of financial planning is that process of planning.

[00:23:47] TB: Yeah, yeah. So much it’s not say about the plan, it’s about the act of planning. I think, it’s an interesting conversation to have, because in this particular case they think they can get $2800 a month as a rental, right now their mortgage is 2600, they’re paying that on a 30-year, four and a quarter. Probably when we wrote this out, four and a quarter was actually a higher rate, but if you can get that down and get rid of the PMI maybe you’re delta between what you can rent and what your mortgage would be, there’s a lot more. The other argument is because inventories are so low in a lot of different parts of the country, probably Dallas included, maybe the rent you can get is not 2800, maybe it’s 3032, I don’t know, but those would be some of the things that I want to dive a little bit deeper.

For some people, too, it’s like, “What’s the catalyst behind renting it out?” If it is from a wealth building perspective, maybe your point the math says, maybe sell it and roll it into your new home and minimize expenses on that. Maybe with Jason, maybe part of his idea in terms of shifting careers is more along the lines of supplement in his new career with real estate or something like that, and maybe an effort to diversify income. But to your point, I think it’s just like the PSLF discussion. I think it’s having a conversation that is supported with the emotional, but also the math in terms of what it looks like, and because things change, it seems like all the time with markets and interest rates and home values and rental, all that stuff, it constantly changes. I think having a little bit more of a clarifying discussion.

Kelly, if we assume that we’re going to go down the PSLF route and we’re really trying to make sure that the investments are buttoned up and really the cash is deployed in the most optimized sense, we’re looking at with this particular client would we say about $130,000 in cash between check in savings and the CD they have. So if we look at – we think would be in an emergency fund and how we would set up their investments. What are some opportunities for this excess of cash and what they can potentially do with that? What’s your take on that, if they’re asking, hey, because one of the things that we’re hearing from real clients is like, “Hey, with the forbearance we haven’t been paying towards our loans and we know that that’s good, but it’s also a bad thing because that cash is just sitting there not really doing anything.” If you’re looking at things travel or transition, or a mom fund, how would you approach the client in terms of trying to deconstruct what to do with this cash?

[00:26:23] KRH: I do think and I’m not sure if I’ll answer the question specifically, but I think it is indirectly related. It does really help to earmark those large portions of cash. So what is the emergency fund like we say six months, those necessary expenses, mortgage, student loan payment, car payments, from there, the travel budget really tying in a specific amount to a specific goal is very important. Then once you see what that looks like that is a much better view of what’s left. I guess in terms of debt, I would take a look at, is it paying off the private loan? We get asked that a lot. Invest versus private loan, I would see about a refi rate versus just paying it off directly.

In terms of the wealth-building, there are certainly a lot of opportunities if you’re pursuing a PSLF option to really look at how much is being contributed into the 403 B, it’s well under the limit of 20,500 for 2022. Jason’s going into the Roth side, he’s not at the maximum either, so looking at that contribution rate. Now with Lucy, I guess asking the question, is Lucy on Lauren’s health insurance or Jason’s? If she can be on Lauren’s, that HSA amount increases substantially as well to over $7,000.

Those would be the places where that’s always a great conversation with PSLF is, what else can you be doing? So not only are you not paying the student loan, you’re not having to put that money towards a payment amount, but then you’re also building wealth on the back end towards your savings capacity.

[00:28:14] TB: What do you guys typically see or what do you typically recommend in for an average client like this in terms of our emergency fund, are we saying emergency fund is 80,000 10,000? If you had to do a roundabout guess in terms of what you’re seeing in terms of an average emergency fund, what would you say you’re seeing?

[00:28:32] RL: Yeah. I like to break cash down to pure ratios. My checking accounts, I like to have a floor. Everybody resets their zero when they’re making it in life, right? When you’re in high school and college, maybe it’s zero, dollars is to zero. When you make a little bit of money, it’s a thousand bucks and it’s 10,000 bucks you want to have that feels like your real “Oh, no” moment. There we go. So I like to see 1.5 X, so one and a half times your monthly expenses in your checking account, that’s just to make sure you never overdraft, you never do anything crazy, from a savings account perspective, we always hear that 36 months for two people, if they’re both in very secure jobs, I think three months is going to be good enough. That’s generally going to be long enough for long-term disability to kick in depending on the plan, if it’s got a 90-day or 180-day exclusion period.

If we’re thinking that maybe there’s going to be some career change opportunity happening, then I’d like to be closer to six months of net expenses, I definitely want to be closer to that and you can decide if that’s just fixed expenses or if it’s all expenses. People are generally really bad at judging out what their expenses are for monthly basis, so I just take all expenses and make that our emergency savings. So for a client this, I think that we’re just going to need to have 60 grand kinda set aside. They’re spending about 10K a month between fixed and variable expenses. If we want six months, so that’s in 60K in an emergency savings wouldn’t be about right for them.

[00:29:50] TB: Yeah. That’s about half of what the cash that they have on hand, thereabouts. I think typically and it would probably be in a traditional case if Lauren and Jason were saying like, “Hey, we’re good with these jobs, more than likely they’re probably pretty secure. It might be half of that, but I think to account for some of the transition and give them some runway, if he does take a step back in salary, it makes a lot of sense.

I’m with you, Kelly. I personally like the idea of setting up a high-yield savings account that is called an emergency fund. Set in a high yield savings account or sub-accounts, that’s called travel. Our travel fund at Ally has sub-accounts that is like RV camping trips, Paris, which we just got back from our big trip this year, is Disney World, right? The idea is that we have goals for each of them, we turn that off and then we go on to the next thing. So we nerd out a little bit and get very granular with that and I think it does help, because it pushes the goals. Sometimes I think, if you have a big pot of money, you’re doing some of the earmarking already, but it’s a little bit more nebulous. Where it’s like, “Oh, okay. I think some of this is for X, some of this is for Y.

If you’re going to do that anyway, just actually do the accounting. That’s not everyone’s cup of tea, I get it. Sometimes it’s more percentages or things like that, but I think sometimes that’s one of the beauty of like a 401K or an IRA is that when you save money, do your 401K and all make that comes out of your paycheck, but for you to reach into that cookie jar and get that money out, there’s a lot of penalties, 10%, you pay taxes and things like that. At least from a savings perspective, we’re labeling it, and we have a goal set up that if I rob the Disney World account to go buy a Tesla, I’m going through that, at least mental barrier to do that.

I’m a proponent of building a savings plan and drawing those lines. Let’s talk about one thing that we haven’t talked about too much in depth is just the investments. When you look at are they saving enough right now, 5%, 7% for Lauren, and Jason respectively, they do get a match, target date funds 80-20 allocation for Lauren and Jason respectively. They have a taxable account, it’s a Robinhood account that he’s doing, individual stocks, ETFs. What’s your overall impression, Kelly, of the investment account? Then let’s talk about the retirement stuff and then we’ll pivot and we’ll talk about the education stuff. Kelly, what’s your take when you look at their investments?

[00:32:14] KRH: Right, I mean, sometimes target date funds are the best option in an employer-sponsored plan, but that would be the first place I would look to see what are the fees for the target date funds? Does it match Lauren’s risk tolerance and appropriate asset allocation and see if there’s a portfolio that can be developed that would be better? Again, sometimes that’s not the case.

As far as Jason, I guess I would be wondering if the 80-20 asset allocation was appropriate for his age and if maybe he should be taking on a little bit more risk now, of course, we’d be looking at his score and having that conversation from the risk tolerance as far as just in general with the taxable accounts too. I think one of the lessons from the tax season is just that these do have an impact on our tax liability, which can sometimes be a surprise at the end of the year. I think it’s always good to check in on just having that conversation, how does this fit with overall goals and what you want to accomplish and making sure just some high level facts.

The IRS is now having the conversation about cryptocurrencies, like, know what to expect, wash sales. All those pieces that individual investors really do need to take into account as they’re thinking through how they manage those. Would it be better somewhere else too.

[00:33:48] TB: Yeah. I mean, one of the things that I would call out here is in the fact, pattern. Jason’s doing $200 into his Robinhood account, so $2400. I would just ask a question like what’s it for? Sometimes the answer is like, “I don’t know, just to mess around.” Which is fine, but is that worth maybe deferring, should we earmark this for the transaction fund or for X, Y, or Z? The other thing that they’re probably doing that they don’t necessarily need to do, because they have the cash is they’re putting $500 into a joint account. They’re probably set there. Maybe we redeploy that into a travel fund or a mom fund or something like that, but I would agree with you, target date funds might be okay, might not be the most cost effective or align best with the risk tolerance.

You could argue with Jason being 33 in 80-20 allocation, 20% in bonds, might not be the best. Is there an opportunity to invest the HSA, right now it’s sitting on cash. She has 5,000, she’s contributing another 3,650, might be up to be to get that rolling and then maybe cash flow some health expenses. With a baby coming up maybe they don’t stay in a high-deductible health plan and maybe they switch over for that year, which turns off the HSA. All of these things I think are on the table. Robert, as you look at the education, so we see this a lot. Lauren and Jason are basically saying like, “We want to save for Lucy’s education, she’s six months old.” Sometimes people go behind even at six months old, but don’t know where to start. They’re in Dallas Texas. How would you start that conversation of how to approach the college savings conversation?

[00:35:23] RL: Yeah. Anybody who’s got student loans, wants to make sure that their children don’t have the same problems and issues that they have. So it’s a really common thing of, “What can we be doing and when should we be doing it.” With 529’s college savings accounts, those are probably going to be your best bet in most places, unless they’re both alumni of a particular school and that school has some prepaid credit options where you can actually pay for college credits now and they’ll be matched whatever they are in the future. That would be an option. But for the most part, 529 savings plans is where is at.

Now in other states you get a discount on your state taxes for that. Texas does not have any state taxes or income, so they can choose any 529. There’s some great ones out there. Some of my favorite ones actually have a feature that allows you to send a link to family, so then family can send money to the 529 as well. So that’s a great way to go about as well. Even if you just set that account up. I guarantee, I have a nine month old here in the house and they have way too many toys and people are going to start sending them more toys for the next six months, so instead of just sending out a 529 plan link to somebody that they can give $50 to the education savings account instead, which is better than having a little plastic drum in behind you in a video, so you can make noises or memes. That’s a great way to go about it, but really anything they do now is going to be beneficial.

We’re never sure what the college landscape’s going to look like in the future. Highly unlikely that it’s going to stay on the same trajectory that it’s at now, that would be completely untenable. But just getting something going and then allowing other family members to contribute so then, they can also feel like they’re involved in Lucy’s life. This maybe the first grandchild, this could be the first nephew, the first cousins to be the first of many or the first of only. We really want to make sure that everyone can be included.

[00:37:01] TB: Yeah, it’s so true. It’s like the war on plastic. I feel like Liam had so many cars and things like that. He doesn’t need any more of that stuff, so here’s a link and contribute to a gift that way. I think one of the places I would start even before get into that vehicle and to your point with them being in Texas where there is no state income tax, and you can do this in any state, but a lot of the time, if you’re a resident of Ohio, you’re going to contribute to Ohio’s. If you’re resident of Maryland, you’re going to contribute to Maryland’s, because they give tax benefit for that, but not all 529s are created equal. So you have different expenses and things like that. So you definitely want to make sure that you’re finding a plan that all things being equal has good investments, low cost, that type of thing.

I think probably one of the things that I would least start the conversation and sometimes it’s like, I don’t know, it’s like, what’s the goal? I’ve seen the spectrum, Robert, where it’s like, well, I’ve had to deal with my student loan, so my kid has to figure that out as well to like, what you said is I never want my kid to have to go through this. To me, it’s deconstructing, what is the goal? Most of the time when I feel when I ask that question of, what’s the goal with the planning for your kid’s education, it’s a shrug emoji, not really sure. But then sometimes we paint a little a picture of, so we talked about the one third rule in prior podcasts.

One third could be, you say even something like a 529, one third of tuition of this could be from when Lucy is 18 and you’re basically paying tuition out of your present paycheck. Then one third could be from things like grants, scholarships. Then last but not least, student loans. So you attack it that way. So if you’re trying to achieve a funding goal, 33% in your 529, you can work with an advisor and try to figure out what that is. But I think it’s having that conversation and get, I know some clients are like, I want to put my kid through four years of college, master’s, doctorate. Then that’s obviously a much bigger monthly amount that they have to save for, but. the earlier you do, the better because if not, if you’re still trying to achieve that, you’re paying that much, much more in future dollars without the benefit of it being able to invest in compound. I think it’s a worthy conversation is build out that part of the plan.

Any other call outs that you would say as you’re looking at this particular couple, the Joneses, is that either from a tax perspective, a cash, a debt, a wealth protection with insurance that you would say, “Hey, this is probably something that we really need to talk about.” I mean, I think probably the one that we didn’t dive too deep in is, what is the future prospects of a supplemental income?

She makes it seem here that she can increase it fairly substantially, but then also probably the other thing that I would want to talk more about is just what’s the situation with mom? What’s that timeline? What’s that look like? How are we going to prepare for that? Is that something that we’re looking at in terms of the next home purchase, which again is probably another point of conversation is, what’s the timeline for that? What’s your guys take on that?

[00:40:08] KRH: I mean, I think right, the housing we just had a recent conversation with a client about their next house. They were thinking through about having room for a parent or both sets of parents. I think when we do the estate planning conversation, it is always interesting how a lot of times it does come up about parents and their needs too, so making sure they have documents in place that are here and that you have a good understanding of expectations is really important, because it is a lot of work to take care of a child and a parent at the same time. The more clarity you can have, the better for sure. I would say that’s pretty important. Do they need long-term care insurance? Do they have it? What resources do they have available to help you help them in the process?

[00:41:01] TB: Yeah, absolutely. How about you, Robert, any other closing thoughts?

[00:41:04] RL: Yeah. I don’t know if we touched on the professional liability. I think that’s a big one. We’re getting that policy in place, the hospitals protecting her when she’s at work, but definitely not when she’s doing her supplemental income job. Even if the hospitals protecting her, they’re really protecting themselves, so it’s really important to have a policy of your own. These policies are very inexpensive relative to some other stuff for paying, so I think that that going out and getting professional liability policy would be easy and quick and a good solution.

[00:41:31] TB: Yeah. I mean, I think there’s some more to be done on the wealth protection stuff with the estate documents, probably be looking at some of the life insurance, maybe disability. Yeah, professional liability, low hanging fruit. I definitely probably in down the road if they are looking at a rental property and probably and one of the things that we haven’t called out here that we typically see with a lot of our clients, they have kids, they don’t take advantage of all the things available to them at IE like FSA for dependent care. If that’s something that we’re spending money on with Lucy, so probably some help with taxes in the future, perhaps, especially if they’re looking at a PSLF now you could argue with Texas, there’s no state income tax you really just need help with the federal.

As you’re looking at maybe a rental property and another baby PSLF and you feel you’re missing out on deductions and you’re owing that money, maybe some proactive planning around that as the financial situation becomes more complex is something that you might want to get a helping hand with. But yeah, good stuff, guys. We’ll leave it there. We really appreciate the conversation, looking forward to doing many more of these in the future. Yeah, thanks for doing this today.

[00:42:37] RL: Yeah, enjoy it Tim.

[00:42:38] KRH: All right, thanks, Tim.

[END OF EPISODE]

[00:42:41] ANNOUNCER: Before we wrap up today’s show, let’s hear an important message from our sponsor Insuring Income. If you are in the market to add own occupation disability insurance, term life insurance or both, Insuring Income would love to be your resource. Insuring Income has relationships with all of the high-quality disability insurance and life insurance carriers you should be considering and can help you design coverage to best protect you and your family. Head on over to insuranceincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist or click on their link in the show notes to request quotes, ask a question, or start down your own path of learning more about this necessary protection.

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For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacists.com/disclaimer. Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacists Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 252: One Pharmacist’s Journey in Entrepreneurship and Independent Pharmacy

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One Pharmacist’s Journey in Entrepreneurship and Independent Pharmacy

On this episode, sponsored by Splash Financial, Emlah Tubuo, the owner and pharmacist in charge at Powell Pharmacy & founder of Emlah Naturals, a pharmaceutical-grade supplement line, shares why she decided to start her own business, the challenges she has had to overcome in starting and running a business, and how she defines personal and professional success.

About Today’s Guest

Emlah Tubuo, the owner and pharmacist in charge at Powell Pharmacy, arrived in the United States in August 2003 with $300.00 to her name. Prior to earning her PharmD in 2010 from The Ohio State University College of Pharmacy, Emlah Tubuo earned a BS in Microbiology from the University of Buea Cameroon, and an MS in Molecular Biology from Chicago State University. She has lived and studied in both a developed country and the developing African third world country of Cameroon. Her difficult early life experiences had an immense impact on her life perspective.

Emlah served as an Ambulatory Care Pharmacist for Nationwide Children’s Hospital, and previously, worked as a pharmacist with the Kroger Chain for 8 years. Her quest for work-life balance and her strong desire to be an emotionally available parent to her three children and wife to her husband drive her passion for opening Powell Pharmacy and founding Emlah Naturals. While living and working in her birth country of Cameroon, Emlah suffered from numerous preventable diseases such as Malaria, Typhoid Fever and Dysentery, which kept her out of school several times. This gives her intense respect for disease prevention through immunizations. She led her pharmacy team to immunize hundreds of patients in 2016 and earned national recognition from The Kroger Co. by ranking among the top 1 percent of immunization community pharmacies out of over 2,100 sites. Additionally, Emlah developed her pharmacy team to provide Medication Therapy Management (MTM) and led her pharmacy to rank in the top five pharmacies in Columbus Ohio for MTM claims billed for four consecutive years.

Emlah was featured in the October 2017 edition of the National Chain Drug Review in the “Excellence in Rx” feature. She has earned multiple awards for her efforts as a Kroger pharmacist including Leader in Patient Care in 2016 and Outstanding Mentor in 2017 from the Kroger Columbus Division. She is an active member of the Ohio Pharmacists Association and serves on the Practice Advancement and Innovation committee. In 2016 she received the Preceptor of the Year Award from the OSU College of Pharmacy. Emlah Tubuo is the recipient of the 2018 Ohio Pharmacist Association Distinguished Young Pharmacist Award and the Ohio State University Josephine Sitterle Failer Alumni Award which recognizes an alumnus who has made outstanding contributions to the community or professional service. She serves on the Alumni Board of Governors of the OSU College of Pharmacy.

Her respect for diverse viewpoints, integrity hard work, and resilience make her the passionate pharmacist-owner at Powell Pharmacy and the founder of Emlah Naturals, a pharmaceutical-grade supplement line. The concept of Emlah Naturals® was born out of a desire to not only provide superior quality supplements but more importantly to provide valuable information regarding the intelligent, individualized selection of these supplements. Supplement selection is based on individual needs, careful consideration of the mechanism of action, handling by the body, and any possible drug interactions, and education on drug-induced nutrient depletions.

Episode Summary

Pharmacists are experts in human health, medication, and dispensing medication their patients need. However, sometimes prescriptions merely treat the symptom of an underlying health issue and not the source of the health problem. Pharmacists have a unique skill set and opportunity to educate patients on lifestyle changes they can make in addition to medication to become healthier. Education and health optimizations are the drive and passion of pharmacist and business owner, Emlah Tubuo, who aims to educate the public on the benefits of using natural supplements and lifestyle changes in combination with medication to remedy underlying health issues. Her passion centers around people and providing personalized care and advice to suit their needs. Emlah is the owner and pharmacist in charge at Powell Pharmacy, founder of Emlah Naturals, and is an accomplished and respected pharmacist. Her personal and professional journeys will inspire and motivate the listener. In today’s episode, you will hear why Emlah decided to start her own business, Emlah Naturals. Emlah shares her inspiring path to become a pharmacist, the many challenges she has experienced as a business owner, what she has learned during the pandemic, how she has become an authority in her field and community, and her definition of personal and professional success.

Key Points From This Episode

Emlah’s professional background and training.
How Emlah was able to study abroad to further her career.
The first job Emlah had after graduating and what her role was.
Highlights of Emlah’s approach to pharmacy and health care.
What motivated Emlah to start her own business.
The first steps Emlah took when starting her business.
Tim and Emlah discuss when the best time is to start a business.
The impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on the business and lessons learned.
How Emlah keeps motivated to do her best every day.
We find out more about Emlah’s new business, Emlah Naturals.
Why people should implement lifestyle changes along with taking medication.
What Emlah’s definition of success is, both personally and professionally.

Highlights

“If there’s anything we can do which is beyond prescriptions to take care of them, that’s really my focus and that’s what I encourage my team to do.” — Emlah Tubuo [0:07:39]

“If my worst-case scenario is going back to work at the previous job that I had, that’s fine. Have I impacted people along the way? That is my definition of success. That’s my definition of my life as a pharmacist.” — Emlah Tubuo [0:11:53]

“In this past three years, I have learned more than the past 30 years of my life put together because every day is a different challenge.” — Emlah Tubuo [0:14:22]

“I am always a student, I am always learning and that is what all of us should do. If you are not learning, if you’re not growing, you’re dying.” — Emlah Tubuo [0:17:13]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

This week, I had a chance to sit down with Emlah Tubuo, the owner and pharmacist in charge at Powell Pharmacy and founder of Emlah Naturals, a pharmaceutical grade supplement mind. A few of my favorite moments from the show include, hearing from Emlah of why she decided to make the leap to start her own business after practicing as a community and ambulatory care pharmacist for nearly a decade, the challenges and “failures” she has had to overcome in starting and running a business, the “why” behind her business ventures and how she, despite numerous accolades and recognitions, defines personal and professional success.

Before we hear from today’s sponsor and then jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 household in 40 plus states. YFP planning offers fee only, high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional.

Okay, let’s hear from today’s sponsor and then we’ll jump into my interview with Emlah.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

This episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast is sponsored by Splash Financial. With interest rates on the rise, it’s a good time to evaluate the refinancing of your student loans, if you’ve ever considered refinancing your loans, check your rate now through Splash Financial. If you qualify, refinancing could help you get a lower monthly payment on your student loans or get a lower interest rate.

Splash helps you shop and compare loan refinancing offers across lenders nationwide. Browsing rates through Splash Financial is fast, free and won’t impact your credit until you complete a full application. Now, when you successfully refinance $50,000 or more, Splash Financial will give you an extra $500 in cash bonus, using our link, splashfinancial.com/yfp. So check your rate today and see what you might be able to save at splashfinancial.com/yfp.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:17.3] TU: Emlah, welcome to the show.

[0:02:18.7] ET: Thank you Tim, thanks for having me. I am excited to be here.

[0:02:23.3] TU: Well, I am too. I’m excited to dig into your pharmacy career as well as your entrepreneurial journey in the inner section of those two things. We had a chance to connect briefly this past weekend at the OPA, Ohio Pharmacist Association annual meeting, that was such a treat and I’m really excited to introduce you further to the YFP community. Before we jump in to the entrepreneurial journey where I want to spend most of our time, tell us more about what drew you into the profession of pharmacy and where you did your pharmacy training.

[0:02:51.4] ET: You know, I originally hail from Cameron, West Africa and what happened is, I would be, I would volunteer at these WHO clinics and these clinics run by the Baptist Health Center that I live near and we had missionaries come in. We had some ladies who were pharmacists come form North America and I just adored them.

When the physicians or the nurses that work with them at this clinics, when they ask them any question about a medication, they spit the answer right out. And I thought to myself, “How do these ladies know about all those medications?” and this I speak of is like a charitable pharmacy where all the medications are donated with different names from different countries.

These ladies could tell you, “If we don’t have this medication in stock, let’s use this other one” or “This patient, they need this one” and they just amaze me and I started talking with them about how to become a pharmacist and there is no pharmacy school in Cameron. This was when I was in high school going to undergrad and I started researching and thinking of how I could be able to leave Cameron and go study pharmacy in their country.

That’s really what turned it around for me, those missionaries who were pharmacist and just working with their hearts, not just practicing pharmacy but influencing people around them.

[0:04:08.3] TU: That experience through the WHO and those folks that were there, helping to serve, tell us about the connection and we cross paths at the Ohio State University College of Pharmacy where we both have connections, you from your pharmacy training, me from my residency training. You’ve obviously precepted in and stay connected with OSU throughout your degree thus far as well but tell us more than about that connection of, “Okay, I see the role that a pharmacist can play” and then, what work you did ultimately start your undergraduate work and then go onto pharmacy school?

[0:04:38.4] ET: Yeah, it is all about consistency. That’s one word that has carried me on and it’s something that I share with everybody that’s around me. I started applying out, there is no space to take the B-cut in Cameron. So, the only way to come out of Cameron was to apply for a masters program in molecular genetics and that’s how I went to Chicago, did my masters there and during my master’s program, I started applying to colleges or pharmacies around the country. So that’s how I got to Ohio State with basically almost no money to make it out here, drove from Chicago, came to Columbus for the interview, I fell in love with Ohio State.

As soon as I was accepted, this became home for me. Ohio State is my base and I just got the mentors, people embraced me. Being in a foreign place with nobody, no family around, you know nobody. You walk in and the professors, Dr. Hill, Dr. Bracket, Dr. Rodis, they just loved me and took me like their own. This is really what they said, “You know what Emlah? You are in the right space. This is not only about pharmacy, this is about life.”

[0:05:47.5] TU: I love that Emlah and those names resonate with me, Dr. Kent Hill, Dr. Carrie Bracket, Dr. Jen Rodis, folks that have had such a positive impact on my life, I would suspect, if we have any Buckeyes that are listening, those names would resonate as well.

You graduate from OSU, you got some great mentors that are supporting you in this journey. Tell us more about the first job that you had after graduating and the work that you did in that job?

[0:06:11.8] ET: During my time at OSU, I had an absolute, wonderful help from people around to connect with. I worked at Kroger as an intern and so, with Kroger Health, I worked at almost ever Kroger store that existed at Central Columbus, so I turned out to make all those connections partially because I needed money from the overtime and because I was trying to broaden my base. Every time I work with the pharmacist, I work with you and I will make sure that I get your style of working, how you interact with patients.

My time at Kroger was wonderful, it was foundational because I did so much more than dispensing at Kroger, that I found my calling. I said, “You know what? There is a lot more to health than prescriptions” and Kroger was leading the way in immunizations, medication therapy management.

I jumped onto that and I looked at every patient coming to me and I said, “This patient is not just coming to pickup a medication, they need something more” and I worked with my team to become the top immunizing pharmacy in the Kroger Columbus division and that was a beautiful journey. It just brought the team together, changed the culture of the team when there’s so much burnout and stress in the pharmacy world around now.

That’s how my passion grew and connected with other people who are focusing on a lot more than dispensing because I believe dispensing brings people to the pharmacy. Patients come to pick up medications but nobody wakes up and goes, “I love Metformin, I want to go pickup Metformin because I want to take Metformin” They’re coming for health. If there’s anything we can do which is beyond prescriptions to take care of them, that’s really my focus and that’s what I encourage my team to do.

[0:07:46.7] TU: So, you spend about a decade in community pharmacy, some time in the inventory care practice as well and then you make the decision to open up Powell Pharmacy in the Columbus Ohio area. Tell us more about, you know, we talk about that with business owners and I think sometimes it’s hard to remember that big moment, that decision, that leap of faith and so, take us back to that point in time of what led to, “Hey, I want to do my own thing” and then ultimately, what took you across that line to actually get started?

[0:08:15.4] ET: You know, it’s hard to find that one moment that made that decision. Coming from Cameron like I said earlier where there are no chain pharmacies, so my background is, a pharmacist works in a hospital or a pharmacist owns an independent pharmacy. That’s what I knew growing up as a child and all through going through pharmacy school at the Ohio State University, I’m thinking, “You know, it’s kind of different.” When I walk into a chain pharmacy, I go today and they don’t recognize me, I got to next day later on.

Nothing against chain pharmacies because that was me for 10 years and that is – the most wonderful people you will find behind the counter taking care of our health but I just wanted to practice pharmacy a little different. I just wanted to do something beyond dispensing. To be able to take it one step further and I kept – you know, the fear of making a big decision and I started, I said, “You know what Emlah? Maybe I need an MBA to be able to open my own pharmacy.”

I started reading into that. I started looking at about a ton of books, I bought about 30 books and started reading. I started reading and I said, “You know what? With all these student loans, I don’t know, should I add and MBA and get more student loan onto this?” and that fear going back and forth and then, when I transitioned from Kroger and went to Nationwide Children’s Hospital and practicing in the Ambulatory Care space there. A lot of things, including having my own children, I do have three children.

Balancing pharmacy, mom and I said, “I can continue to postpone this and postpone it and there will never be that right moment” but at the back, I just felt that talk to keep going, “You know what? I really want to practice pharmacy the way I saw it growing up” to bring back the old style where I could relate with a patient and have a little bit more time to address all the needs and I said, when I’m most at children’s pharmacy and I say, “This might be the time.” I was working the night shift there and it kind of played with my balance as a mom.

I said, “Maybe this is the time to make that shift” and fear, going back and forth with that decision and I said, “You know what? If I’m going to fail, let me fail fast. Let me just go in and get it done and we will see how it works. If it doesn’t work, I’m going to come back to Kroger or I’m going to come back to Nationwide Children’s Hospital but guess what’s going to happen? I’m going to put in every single effort that I have in this body and it’s going to work” and so, the leap of faith.

[0:10:41.3] TU: I love that, I think a couple of things I heard there, “If I’m going to fail, I’m going to fail fast” right? I’m going to fail forward and really evaluating what is the worst-case scenario and I think for many pharmacists you know, we think about worse case scenario in a way that is unrealistic. There’s not many professionals that you can say, “Hey, my worst case scenario is I go back to a job that pays a six figure salary” that’s a really good worst case scenario, right?

[0:11:05.6] ET: That is. Tim, like you mentioned, a good worst case scenario with the connections because, one of the books I was telling you all these books that I was reading, one of the books that I read that made an impact was the E Myth Revisited by Michael Gerber. He said, you know, nobody is interested in a commodity.

People buy failings. People buy relationships, people buy connections and that is in every space, especially in the pharmacy space and I always link it. Nobody wakes up and goes, “I would like to go and buy a medication.” People buy health, people want to feel better, people come to you and I as pharmacists in this space to feel better about themselves to live better.

What can we do as pharmacists to connect that? If my worst case scenario is going back to work at the previous job that I had, that’s fine. Have I impacted people along the way? That is my definition of success.

[0:12:05.3] TU: I love that.

[0:12:05.5] ET: That’s my definition of my life as a pharmacist.

[0:12:09.5] TU: Yes. And the other thing you said that it really resonate with me there is, there may never be “the right moment” right? I think of – you know, it could be student loans, it could be a young family, it could be other prioritizing other financial goal. There’s so many things that can get in the way and kind of reminds me of, I’ve got four boys, you mentioned three children. There’s never a right time to have a baby or to have a child and –

[0:12:33.5] ET: Absolutely Tim, yes.

[0:12:35.1] TU: I think it can be similar with business that if we wait for all the stars to align, we might be looking back at a point in time and wondering, “What if? What if, what would have been?”

[0:12:41.9] ET: Absolutely, should I have done it? Should I have done it at that time or maybe this was the right time to do it or when? You name all those factors, it’s a compounding effect.

[0:12:51.8] TU: Yes.

[0:12:52.3] ET: You put it and then when the baby is here, guess what? We’re going to have to take care of this baby, Tim. We’re going to figure out how to, we have never learned how to change a diaper before, we’re going to change it. This is how I practice pharmacy, I relate it to being a mother and I tell my patients, “I am a great pharmacist because I’m a great mother and I’m a great mother because I’m a great pharmacist” and I’m not saying great because I know how to do the parenting thing right but this is because every day, I put in my 100%. Some days I feel like that 100% is equal to 0% but I put it in regardless.

[0:13:24.8] TU: Yeah, I love it and figure it out mentality and the factor. So April 2019, you opened a business and not even a year later, we’ve got the pandemic that obviously, hits us close. It has had such an impact on small businesses, certainly new businesses, arguably to a greater degree.

Tell us about what impact the pandemic had on the business, on you as a business owner and then, what were some things that you were able to learn through perhaps a difficult time that have allowed you to grow as an individual and a business owner.

[0:13:57.7] ET: Talk about timing, Tim. Talk about timing and I kept reminding myself, I said, “Emlah, it is about the impact that you are going to have for the people around you.” It is about the impact. Once the pandemic hit, I said, “Oh my goodness, I have not figured out what I’m doing” Every day, I learn more, opening the pharmacy. I tell people, the pharmacy has been open for two and a half years now, almost three here and I said, “In this past three years, I have learned more than the past 30 years of my life put together because every day is a different challenge.”

I could either put my head on the pillow and cry or I could face it and I say, you know, the fastest way through a storm is going right through it every single time and this pandemic was a hit in the face. I said, “Oh my goodness, what did I just do?” and such is life, Tim, such is life. To me, as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, as a mother, I’m going through opening a business in the pandemic and navigating how to continue to stay present in the community and I said, refer back to what started, what made you Tim to open Your Financial Pharmacist?

YFP is here and it has impacted so many people. Myself included, I look up to you. The inspiration, are you doing what you set out to do? Are you inspiring the people around you? I keep asking myself that question, every single day, “Emlah, are you making the impact with everybody that you cross paths with? Are their lives better because they crossed paths with you, are their lives better because they came in to Powell Pharmacy? Are their lives better because they came into contact with me or with my business?” That is really the drive. My why, why, why did I start this?

[0:15:35.8] TU: Yeah, and I think as I’ve observed Emlah, you know, the work that you’ve done from a far and being in Central Ohio and hearing through many shared connections that the great work that you’re doing. One of the things I observed is you know, I’m looking at in preparation of this interview, an article that you have in the Columbus Dispatch where you reference, you’ve been in various videos and interviews and media outlets in Columbus throughout the pandemic about vaccine services and other thing you’ve been working on. I feel like it’s a great example of turning some of the challenges into opportunity.

You’ve really positioned yourself as a voice of authority on community pharmacists and the importance of pharmacy in a community here in Central Ohio and so, what a great, great thing as we think about the challenges of small business in the pandemic and obviously, the impact we know pharmacists have had and the positive impact they’ve had throughout the pandemic but to really position yourself as that voice of authority I think was really, a cool thing to watch. Congratulations, I think to you and obviously the team that’s been involved in moving that forward.

[0:16:31.8] ET: Thank you Tim. You say that and you mentioned being that voice but during this space and during this time, those doubts, that difficulty and my message to the YFP community is that when I mentioned earlier that I left Cameron and I came here, my breach to the PharmD program was to do a masters in molecular genetics and all that while I kept telling myself, “Oh my goodness” You know that little voice inside, “Oh, what a waste of your two years, what a waste of your two years”, you know?

My message is, everybody, and I tell this to my children, they’re still little but no time is spent as a waste if I spend this minute with you. I am always a student, I am always learning and that is what all of us should do. If you are not learning, if you’re not growing, you’re dying. That’s what we need to continue to do and I learned so much during this pandemic. I used the time and my knowledge of molecular genetics, who knew that that will come in handy? In fact as to be able to make a video and talk about MRI vaccinations and how because there was so much doubt when the vaccines came out.

I did a video that would inspire people and people would really understand how they work and this new type of vaccines as, “Is it really new, you know? Is it going to hurt, me, is it going to help me?” You see how pharmacy and what I have done during this days, I tell you Tim, if you look at the people that I surround myself with, I surround myself with great pharmacists. I surround myself with like minded pharmacists, I surround myself with people like you.

People who will inspire me to do more and then people said, “Well, Emlah, you’re a wonderful pharmacist, you should see my friends, you should see my team” That’s – I’m just a reflection of them and that’s the beautiful thing about life.

[0:18:13.0] TU: So powerful, I felt that this weekend, you know, at OPA, being around you, being around Adam Martin, Being around folks like Jen Rodis and other people.

[0:18:20.2] ET: Oh my goodness, the energy.

[0:18:22.1] TU: Such a great point. Yeah, the energy, the enthusiasm, the accountability, the challenging, so powerful. Emlah, you talk about some of these doubts, some of these voices and I want to spend a moment here because as a small business owner myself, those are certainly things that I have experienced and have had to work through and have other challenge me and keep me accountable.

I know many other pharmacists business owners are not. They have struggled with similar things as well. So my question here is what do you do practically to kind of get yourself in the right mindset, despite these challenges, despite some of these doubts or voices. You mentioned, you know, surrounding yourself with folks that really challenge you and keep you accountable and help move you forward.

What are some other things that you do practically as a business owner, as a mom, to really bring your best self forward each and every day?

[0:19:08.2] ET: I continue, Tim, every single day to remind myself where I started from and learning how to practically – I love the fact that you used the word practical there because we read all of these things in books each week, there’s a book already written about it. It is in the textbook, we learn about it, burnout, stress, you know making decisions but we are so hard on ourselves and we forget that just the little things will encourage us and encourage the people around us.

What I do is I am truly present every time. Say for example, I have somebody in front of me at the pharmacy. I, in this line of people, I focus on that person. I give my 100% to that person and I just ignore the line behind them because when it is your turn, I am going to be with them and I learned how to forgive myself for the past mistakes. I practice self-acceptance. It was really hard to do at first but I with three children, having to wake up in the morning, get them all ready.

Even when I worked at Kroger, I worked at Children’s, I would have to wake up in the morning like everybody else does, get myself ready, get the kids ready, drive, drop them off and then get to work. To be able to have a great morning routine, which will put me in that mind space and that mindset that will lead me to success throughout the day, it’s a challenge but I make sure that before the kids wake up, I have to have 10 minutes to myself where I refocus my energy.

I refocus my energy into myself and harness what’s inside because there is something inside each and every one of us. You know, to be there for yourself before you’re there for other people because I cannot come to you, everything, the beautiful, it’s amazing, everything is coming from inside of us, you know? You have to be kind to yourself and that’s why my mantra is we all struggle. Choose kindness, always.

You have to be kind to yourself and once you have filled yourself with that inner peace and kindness, it has no choice but to overflow into the spaces around you. Wellness and kindness are multidimensional Tim but this thought inside you, so I am grounded in the morning. I do my meditation and as much as I am distracted by the number of things on my to-do list for the day, I have a time where I say, “You know what bad energy? Get going, get the kids ready and revisit that happy moment.”

I have it with the kids, a happy moment like I was sharing with you during your talk. By the way Tim, what an amazing talk. That was amazing.

[0:21:35.7] TU: Thank you.

[0:21:36.6] ET: It spoke straight to me and just touching those practical things, I said to myself, I need to encourage myself to calm that fear because it will come. Fear will come every day, to calm me every day and to calm before my children and to calm before my team and all my colleagues because my goal is to inspire people to enjoy life. We have invested so much already into this.

Tell me your happy thought for the day, tell me your gratitude thought for the day and let’s keep it moving.

[0:22:00.8] TU: Yeah, it is starting with the state of mind. You know, we talked a little bit about that in the session but when I hear you talk about the morning mindset and the importance of self-care and filling your buckets, you can serve others. You know, whether that be your family, your patients and you have a gift. You talk about the person at your pharmacy regardless of what else is going on, focusing a 100% on them and you have a gift in doing that.

When someone talks with you one-on-one, you are fully invested in them and that is a rare trait and a gift and I can see why that has had such a positive impact on so many, whether that’s patients, whether that’s students that you are reaccepting and teaching, whether that’s folks that you are connecting within in the business community or family, what a gift to be able to share with others.

[0:22:42.8] ET: I am honored Tim. I am honored, thank you.

[0:22:45.0] TU: Yeah, so not only the pharmacy, which we could talk at length about the work that you are doing there, which is really incredible but you’ve also opened a second business, which is Emlah Naturals. So tell us a little bit more about the idea and vision behind that and what you’ve learned thus far through that experience or we’ll link to both Powell Pharmacy and Emlah Naturals in the show notes so folks can learn more.

[0:23:06.2] ET: Yes, so Tim, practicing as a pharmacist I see there is some spaces that we learn some of these things in school but to be able to take it and translate it too again, the what practical comes in. What practical changes, what things can I make? Because when we council patients, somebody comes and picks up their Metformin today, I give them the counseling points that I learned from school and everything.

Prior to saying that at school, we always learned through pharmacy school lifestyle changes, non-pharmacologic options. We mention that at the beginning of every counseling in addition to lifestyle changes, the Metformin is going to reduce your blood sugar and that’s as far as we go. We don’t focus on those lifestyle changes and that is key. That is the long term goal because there is a study that I always tell my students about, a navigator story.

Where they took like two drugs and they measured how much they will reduce people’s blood sugar and then reducing the effects or the long term effects of diabetes and lifestyle changes. Number one, every single time reduce the complications of diabetes more than the medication every time to combine those medications because people want to – nobody wakes up in the morning Tim and goes, “I am going to jeopardize my health today.”

“I am going to wake up and not eat better. I am just going to be mean to my health today” nobody wakes up and makes that decision consciously. We all want to do better. It is all coming from a great space. We all want to do better for our body, so when we come to the pharmacy and we are picking up medications, I have noticed that because my background having lived and studied in a third-world developing country and a developed country here, I bring a unique perspective on life and medicine and wellness to the table.

You know, from the economic challenges that I grew up with, my mom had a garden behind the house and we eat turmeric every day, it’s ginger every day, it’s mint, you know, it’s aloe every day for all the medications and even when I had malaria. I had malaria maybe 30 or 40 or 30 times, it’s you know, stayed out of school several times because of malaria, she would treat malaria. Sometimes we had Chloroquine but now we are doing that with Chloroquine is all the resistance but she would do everything lifestyle changes.

Just hydration, you know, all the herbs that she would do. I have that knowledge in me and then combine it with the clinical knowledge that I learned during my doctoral pharmacy studies at Ohio State. I said, “You know what? I think this is a space I want to encourage people to focus on that lifestyle medication, to eat healthier, feel better, manage stress, exercise more, love more, give more so they can be kind to their body” but we are missing that space.

About 70% of the US people are taking natural supplements already. They are taking supplements and vitamins but we’re buying it from Amazon, from the store. We just go in there and buy it but these medications are interacting with all the medications that we’re taking all these vitamins. People come in and go, “Oh, my girlfriend is taking echinacea and it is really helping her. It is boosting her immune system. She has not had a cold.”

“You know what? I am taking wolf berry right now.” I’m like, “Oh, I’m going to take that echinacea too” but that is a space where the pharmacist is supposed to be forefront and be, “You know what? We run drug interactions” and I say, “I’ve been thinking about this but this is the need that I need to solve with Emlah Naturals.” You know, create a supplement line where education is key and that’s what sets Emlah Naturals apart.

Empowering the pharmacist to be able to recommend these supplements with confidence, run those strong interaction reports and make sure that the supplement that’s good for you, it is not the one that is good for me and then to solve from too. A lot of times you have people going in there, you see the doctor said, “Oh, they run the lab test and they’re anemic. I have to go pick up some iron.” They go to the pharmacy and they pick up this ferrous sulfate, ferrous gluconate.

They came in different forms and they’re like, “Which one should I get? This one is on sale, maybe I should get it” or “This one is the most expensive, it is probably going to work better” yeah, that was me. The point that turned it around for me, I said, I was diagnosed as – my vitamin D was very low when I was pregnant with my first son and I went back straight to work. I worked at Kroger at the time and I looked at the shelf, there were like 20 vitamin Ds.

I said to myself, “Which one am I going to take?” I am a pharmacy student and I don’t even know which one to take, then when I think about my mom, I think about other people who have no knowledge of pharmacy, so that’s really what sparked my interest in opening Emlah Naturals and it has been tremendous, satisfying and, fulfilling. To help encourage people, to educate people, to be able to make this supplement recommendations, and supplement selection with personality in mind.

[0:27:27.7] TU: Again, we’ll link to both of those in the show notes, so emlahnaturals.com and then powellpharmacy.com and of course, if folks find their way in central Ohio, I highly encourage you to stop by Powell Pharmacy. Emlah, as I think as folks hear your story, by any objective measure they would say, “Wow, Emlah has been very successful” and lots of examples of recognition.

A couple you mentioned in terms of what you achieved in your time at Kroger and your store is in the top one percent of the immunization statistics. You are also featured in National Chain Drug Review, many Kroger recognition including leader and patient care outstanding mentor, you have been preceptor of the year at Ohio State, you’ve won the OPA, Ohio Pharmacist Association distinguished young pharmacy award.

So based on those external measures, those objective measures, “Wow, she’s really successful, those awards, she owns two businesses” but your definition of success is what I believe matters, your measuring bar and so my question here is, how would you measure success as you think about what that means for you both personally as well as professionally?

[0:28:37.5] ET: Well Tim, that is a great question. I have always asked myself that question and I make sure to write and answer. I have not always formed it the way you formulate it but I always tell myself, “Emlah, if I cross paths with somebody, if I meet you today Tim, does your life get better because I am in it? Do my children’s life get better because I am in it? Do my girlfriends, my friends, my neighbors, my family, my church, my community, the pharmacists that work with me, the pharmacists that I meet at OP, do their lives get better?”

Everyone who I am honored to cross paths with, does their life better because I am in it. How can I give emotionally, financially, physically just to be there? Have I been able to make their lives better? That to me is the true definition of success in my mind and that’s what keeps me going. If I can make my son happy, if I can make my team member happy, if I can improve their lives, help them in any way possible because health is different for everybody.

That to me is the true definition, you can give me all those awards you mentioned, I mean, they are great to have. They boost my confidence, they help me do more in different ways but I am inspired by people who have gone ahead of me and I reach out to help other people but to be truly successful and to have my head on the pillow at night and feel good about my day and feel good about the day tomorrow and get me to be in a better mindset to perform tomorrow better than I did today. Have I help the people around me to eat healthier, feel better?

You know, manage stress, love more, give more, be kind to my body so that my children can see me being kind to my body and they can emulate, they can be kind to their body. You know, that gets more blood going to the brain, that gets more oxygen going to the brain, that helps me think clearly, that helps me give me more energy so that I can radiate to the people around me. That truly to me is success.

[0:30:38.7] TU: That is beautiful Emlah and I would argue that those awards are simply an external affirmation of all of those things that you just mentioned, right? Your ability to focus on others and look at how can I help you be a better individual to motivate, to inspire, to share your gifts with others, to love more, to empower them and one of the things I’ve heard is you’re talking there is just an incredible gift of presence that you’re giving other people and in those lives throughout the day.

Again, whether that is personal or professional, that is really hard you know from personal experience to say, “I am going to be present in this moment as a business owner, as a boss, as a spouse, as a father or a mother.” To be present in that moment especially you got a couple of businesses, things are busy, there is a lot of I think individual work that has to be done to be able to develop that state of mind and presence, so what a beautiful thing to share with others. Thank you so much.

[0:31:35.3] ET: Thank you. I appreciate you Tim. I share those, it is hard to keep in touch with your money to get embraced that change and challenges that are along their journey because not every day is a 100% day. Some days my self-worth is down, some days it’s up there but my dispensing, I frame it. I tell my team, I say, “We are dispensing wellness. We are dispensing care and kindness, you know it’s beyond the prescription and daily life”, you know? Coming with the goal is to dispense care every single time, to ourselves as well.

[0:32:08.4] TU: Absolutely. I love that. Well, this has been a real treat. Thank you so much for coming on the show, for sharing your story. Let’s do it again. Where can people find more about you? I have mentioned the two websites thus far but if people want to connect with you further and follow your journey.

[0:32:22.1] ET: Well, we are present on Facebook. We are at emlahnaturals.com and we are also on Instagram. Also just Emlah Naturals on Instagram. The goal is to inspire people, just help people remember that there is a lot more to health and prescriptions. So we’re sharing about the information so you’re not just going out to buy a supplement. We just share information about supplements and my long-term goal, God willing, and giving me the energy that I would get from my friends and my mentors is to be able to help people.

Remember just basic things, we’re working on some things here in the future to encourage hydration, which is – yeah, so that is something probably honored to get on the show again and share with the YFP community because yes, so it’s those things that will help us get better. Instagram and Facebook, we’ll share our upcoming events on there and going to be present in the community.

Hydration and helping people to motivate as pharmacists and the work that you are doing is tremendous, it’s tremendous Tim. That financial peace of mind and getting your newsletters. I tell you, I read every single one of your newsletters every single day when it comes in. They are short, they are bite size information and that’s something that I learned from you. Again, being a student of life, when I started my newsletters were long.

I go back and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, what was I thinking?” and I said, “You know what? Your newsletters are the perfect length.” I read them and guess what? Emlah Naturals newsletters are just like that on emlahnaturals.com, you can subscribe at the bottom and you will get bite size information about supplements and about general things, anything that will help contribute to your health, which is not exactly related to prescriptions.

Yes, so that’s what and we will be looking for more to come and hoping that I will be any station I am honored to be on will be helping to motivate people, pharmacists, especially to invest. We’ve invested a lot into this, we need to be happy while doing it and to feel fulfilled.

[0:34:23.5] TU: Absolutely and I am confident whether folks are in a patient care role, in the community inventory care hospital setting, whether they are running a business, whether they’re working to be the best version of themselves as a parent or as a spouse or significant other, I am confident they are going to get a lot out of this episode. So Emlah, again, thank you so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it.

[0:34:43.3] ET: I am honored Tim, thank you very much and thank you for everything that you do too to those in the YFP Community. I love it, this is a fantastic place to be. Thank you Tim. Thanks for having me.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:34:53.0] TU: Before we wrap up today’s episode of Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, I want to again thank our sponsor, Splash Financial. If you’ve ever considered refinancing your loans, check your rate now through Splash Financial. If you qualify, refinancing could help you get a lower monthly payment on your student loans or get a lower interest rate.

Splash helps you shop and compare loan refinancing offers across lenders nationwide. Browsing rates through Splash Financial is fast, free and won’t impact your credit until you complete a full application and now, when you successfully refinance $50,000 or more, Splash Financial will give you an extra $500 in cash bonus, using our link at splashfinancial.com/yfp. So, check your rate today and see what you might be able to save at splashfinancial.com/yfp.

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:35:38.6] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information of the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analysis expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 251: Zero to One: How to Get Started in Real Estate Investing

Posted on by yfpadmin

Zero to One: How to Get Started in Real Estate Investing

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Nate Hedrick and David Bright, co-hosts of the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast, share their top tips and strategies for getting started in real estate investing.

Episode Summary

The concept of real estate investment can be so broad, with many different avenues you can choose to take, that getting started can feel like a daunting task. One key concept to ensure that you can weather the storms that may come when investing in real estate is to, first and foremost, get your own financial house in order. By building a firm financial foundation, risk-averse pharmacist real estate investors can be more confident with the ups and downs in this ever-changing market. This week, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, welcomes David Bright and Nate Hedrick, co-hosts of the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast, back to the show. Top moments from the episode include David discussing the main categories of real estate investing and why he and Nate have favored buy and hold investment strategies. You will also hear a frank discussion on the individuals you should consider surrounding yourself with as a part of your real estate investing team, plus a few strategies for finding and evaluating an investment property. Nate and David also take a few moments to answer some frequently asked questions about real estate investing for those getting started in their real estate investing journey.

Key Points From This Episode

An update from David and Nate regarding their coaching program.
The importance of having a strong personal financial foundation.
How to break down real estate investing.
Categories best suited for first-time investors.
Nate shares the team aspect of real estate investing to bring down the stress and reduce the barriers to entry.
Where to find a good investment property: off-market.
The importance of being able to define and state your criteria to a real estate agent.
Using math to evaluate an investment and what that looks like; setting up categories.
FAQs you’ll hear when starting in real estate investing.

Highlights

“Getting your [own] financial house in order, [is] such a critical first step before you go on that journey to invest in real estate.” — Tim Ulbrich, PharmD [0:05:34]

“Having a firm financial foundation beneath you means that you can weather some of those storms and deal with some of those ups and downs of real estate.” — David Bright, PharmD, MBA, BCACP, FAPhA, FCCP [0:07:13]

“We’re investing in houses that are far enough away that we’re not going there and we’re not in that day to day aspect of the investing, which is really helpful when you work a full-time pharmacist job and you don’t want to be distracted by your real estate investing.” — David Bright, PharmD, MBA, BCACP, FAPhA, FCCP [0:22:02]

“To be considered a good investment property, it needs to pay for itself every single year, year in and year out, and put money back in your pocket. Running [those] numbers is important and not just looking at the simple things but truly diving into the details.” — Nate Hedrick, PharmD [0:24:30]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

This week, I had a chance to welcome back onto the show, David Bright and Nate Hedrick, co-hosts of the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast. During the interview, David, Nate, and I talk through zero to one, how to get started in real estate investing and make the hardest move, which is that first move.

Some of my favorite moments from the show include David talking to the main categories of real estate investing and why he and Nate have favored buy and hold investment strategies, a discussion on individuals you may consider surrounding yourself as a part of your team as you begin your real estate investing journey and strategies for finding and evaluating an investment property.

Make sure to hang with us to the end of the show when I ask David and Nate frequently asked questions for those getting started in their real estate investing journey. Now, one of the things that we talk about on today’s episode is why getting the financial house in order is such an important and crucial first step before diving into real estate investing.

That is a great opportunity to highlight what I think many folks may not be aware of, which is the incredible work that the team at YFP planning does and working one-on-one with more than 240 household in 40 plus states.

YFP planning offers fee-only, high touch financial planning that is customized to the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom.

Okay, let’s hear from today’s sponsor, and then we’ll jump into my interview with David and Nate.

This week’s podcast episode is brought to you by Insuring Income. Insuring Income is your source for all things term life insurance and owned occupation, disability insurance. Insuring Income has a relationship with America’s top-rated term life insurance and disability insurance companies so pharmacists like you can easily find the best solutions for your personal situation.

To better serve you, Insuring Income reviews all applicable carriers in the marketplace for your desired coverage, supports clients in all 50 states and make sure all of your questions get answered. To get quotes and apply for term life or disability insurance, see sample contracts from disability carriers or learn more about these topics, visit insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist. Again, that’s insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:40.9] TU: David and Nate, welcome back to the show.

[0:02:43.8] DB: Hey Tim, always great to be here.

[0:02:45.7] NH: Yeah, thanks so much.

[0:02:46.8] TU: First of all guys, congratulations on the work that you’ve been doing with the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast. You’ve crossed the 50 episode threshold, which is really an incredible accomplishment and I think it just speaks volume to the commitment of time and energy and effort that you guys have put in so thank you so much for that and it’s been fun to see the reception among the pharmacist community in terms of the focus here on real estate investing and the community of pharmacist and I think that’s a good segue.

I’d love to hear from you guys, just for a moment, an update on what you’ve been up to. When we talked last at the turn of the year, you guys were just getting started with the none to one group coaching program to help folks begin their journey in real estate investing. So, David, Nate, we’d love to hear the update of how that course has gone and what you’ve been seeing.

[0:03:34.7] NH: Yeah, we had a ton of success with that. It’s been really fun to bring together this group of pharmacist that are really eager to buy their first investment property. We actually ended up taking on 10 pharmacist and we are meeting every Sunday for the past two months now, David, and it’s been going really well. It’s a really cool class of individuals, it’s been a great time to talk to everybody and learn along with them, right?

We’re there to teach and kind of coach but at the same time, there’s always more that we can learn and so it’s been really interesting to have problems brought to us and we’re dealing with people all over the country, so it makes David and I expand our horizons a bit. It’s been really enjoyable.

[0:04:08.0] DB: Yeah, it’s also been a lot of fun to see the victories come out too, right? The problems are one thing and the problem solving is like inherent to pharmacist so we enjoy that, right? The victories are also a lot of fun seeing folks who get offers accepted and move through inspections and conquering that investing world has just been really inspiring to see other pharmacist jump into that and do that.

[0:04:27.0] TU: We’re excited to hopefully share more of those stories into the future and be able to offer that out to other pharmacists as well so we really appreciate you guys and the commitment you’re putting enough time, we’re recording here on a Monday, early morning, you guys are up last night with that group. I know it’s got energy and enthusiasm that you’re putting into it as well but it is an investment of time, so thank you guys so much for that work.

This is a follow-up to episode 241. We talked before and we’ll link to that in the show notes about some common objections and barriers to getting started in real estate investing and the idea with this episode is that for those that have worked through or are working through some of those objections and are ready to make the move, what should they be thinking about in terms of going from none to one, right? That hardest move that we often hear folks talk about in the real estate investing journey.

Let’s get started, I want to jump in and talk about the importance of having a strong personal financial foundation, it wouldn’t be a YFP podcast if we didn’t talk about that. Getting your financial house in order, such a critical first step before you go on that journey to invest in real estate. Let’s start there, Nate. Tell us more about why you and David emphasize this concept so often on the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast as well as for your own personal journey why this has been so important.

[0:05:49.4] NH: Yeah, it’s something we reinforce all the time, right? Even the very speaking in the none to one, the very first half of the first class was all about, like, “Okay, you need to establish your own financial house and if you don’t then we need to take a pause and reset,” because without that, right? Nothing else can really track from there, right? We need to make sure that our own financial house is in a state where we can feel comfortable investing and that that investment decision is not going to be make or break, right?

We are very risk-averse, safety-oriented pharmacists as David and I like to say and with that, comes the concept that you need to be in a position where if things don’t work out perfectly, you’re going to be just fine financially. These are decisions we’re making not in a do or die situation, right? We’re trying to buy these properties or invest in a way that it supplements our financial plan, rather than, is the make or break piece of it.

[0:06:39.3] DB: Yeah, and there’s a lot of just potential instability or seeming instability in terms of real estate investing versus a lot of other types of investing. Kind of like in your personal budget, if you’re saving up for a car, you might be putting away money every month and eventually that car happens. There’s same kind of thing with the real estate investment if you may need to save monthly for a roof replacement or save monthly for furnace placement that’s coming at some point though those kind of things maybe a little harder to plan for.

So those evictions, late rent, there’s just a lot more instability and so having a firm financial foundation beneath you, means that you can weather some of those storms and deal with some of those ups and downs of real estate, knowing that in no month is it ever coming out perfect, that all of the bills just perfectly line up but over time, hopefully, the average is added to something and ends up being a good investment.

[0:07:29.4] TU: There’s lots to dig into of course in that topic, in that umbrella, building a strong financial foundation, we’re not going to do that here today because that’s what we do every week on the show but I would point folks to episode 212 where I talk through some of the components of building a strong financial foundation, what does that exactly mean and why is that so important as you begin your real estate investing journey.

We know that real estate investing is such a broad umbrella and I think that’s one of the things that you guys have done such a nice job on the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast is really introducing folks to the variety of different ways that they could invest in real estate but I think that because it’s so wide and because there’s so many options, that can be intimidating for a new investor. So David, tell the us more about how you and Nate break down real estate investing and what categories might be easier for first time investors as they get started?

[0:08:21.3] DB: Yeah, there are plenty of different avenues for real estate investing, kind of like the professional pharmacy, many different ways that you could practice pharmacy. As far as real estate investing goes, Nate and I like to break this down into buy and hold real estate investing where you just buy something, you rent it out long term, or flipping real estate where you buy it, you may fix it up and you may quickly then sell it.

You could apply those terms to single-family houses or multi-family apartment buildings or storage units or vacation properties or so many different categories. Just to make things pretty simple and to stay with areas of investing where people have some general familiarity often times just from buying their own primary residence, we talk a lot about the single-family, buy and hold, long-term rental where you’re simply buying a house, presumably a lot like what you live in and renting that out to someone else so that that simplicity and the clarity of buying a single-family house seems to be one way that people can make an easier jump into real estate investing.

It seems just a lot less intimidating to go buy a single-family, three bed, one and a half bath house than it is to buy an apartment building or buy a strip mall or buy a storage unit complex or something like that, there’s ways to dial back the intimidation factor that way.

[0:09:40.8] NH: Yeah, at the same time, we got a lot of people that come to us and say, “You know, Nate, I want to buy a vacation rental anyway, tell me about the short-term rental thing, you know? Can we do that?” And so there are other ways to get more adventurous with it if that’s what you want to go, where you can buy a property that you can use on the weekends here and there for the rest of vacation property and then rent it out the rest of the year.

We also see people and we’ve talked to individuals that are house flippers or even wholesalers where you’re taking basically, a great deal putting some capital into it or maybe very little capital into it and then flipping it to someone else. There are lots of options out there and just like David said, it’s just as diverse as pharmacy, you can – the term real estate investing is so broad, there’s so many different avenues you can walk down.

[0:10:18.0] TU: Yeah, for folks who haven’t yet listened to the many great stories on the real estate investing podcast, this is one of the areas that I love that you guys have done. I think really focused intently on the buy and hold strategy, David, for the reasons that you’d mentioned but you’ve also featured and then sprinkled some other areas to show the diversity that can be there, you know?

I’m thinking about the recent episode 46 where you had on Stuart and Elizabeth talking about motel hacking. I know you’ve had a couple of folks talking about short-term rentals so certainly, a lot of buy and hold, more of that traditional investing stories but other avenues that folks maybe thinking about as well. Now, I’ve heard you both talk a lot about the team aspect of real estate investing as a way to bring down the stress, reduce the barriers to entry.

Nate, do you mean investing in partnerships when you talk about the team, finding a mentor or something else altogether?

[0:11:06.8] NH: Yeah, it’s kind of a little bit of everything right? There’s nothing wrong with a partnership or a mentor but a lot of times, we focus on just building this team around yourself that can help and it can be something as simple as the YFP community, right? As part of your team, you’ve got people that are helping you out, supporting you in those decisions, helping make things just a little bit less stressful but really, truly, that team that surrounds you, starts with a good real estate agent.

Someone that has your fiduciary interest and making sure that you’re going to be successful and really, as that starts to expand, then your team can expand as well. You know, when we talk about building a team, it sounds really intimidating and so we really try to focus more on starting with really good core individuals around you and then expanding from there and then as you build your confidence and as you start to expand what your kind of projects you’re able to take on.

[0:11:50.3] DB: Yeah, that’s absolutely how we guys started to, we started with the realtor from our own investing and that realtor helped us, the first property that we bought, we needed someone that new plumbing because there’s a plumbing issue so I asked the realtor for a contact for a plumber, the realtor offered us a few different contacts, we were able to find a plumber. From there, we needed someone that could do dry wall, we reached out to the realtor.

And so, our team grew very organically just in terms of reaching out to that realtor, even when it came to an insurance agent or a property manager, those connections all happened just from that initial networking through that initial realtor and then contacts from contacts and going from there.

Even like Nate mentioned on the Facebook group, online connections, online networking, other local real estate meetups, we were able to over time add a book keeper and a tax accountant an attorney and lenders and other folks from there so you know, absolutely, that can sound intimidating on the front end of this enormous team that feels like is necessary when you listen to podcast and read books but for us, it just started out with a realtor and one foot in front of the other. Finding one contractor at a time as we needed people on our team growing that organically.

[0:13:01.6] TU: Love the simplicity of that, David. I’ve heard you and Nate mentioned that before as I think folks often hear stories of investors that have been at this for several years and they’ve got that team, right? They’ve got contractors, they’ve got insurance agents, they’ve got property managers, they’ve got, on the financial side where there’s bookkeeping, individual financial planning, tax side, they got attorneys, they’ve got a team that has really been built over time but they didn’t start there and so I think that step of my team and having that team in place can often paralyze folks if that’s something that they don’g think — maybe I can start with one individual, what if I start with a really good realtor that can help me take that step forward, that’s feasible, that’s manageable and then I can build my team out over time.

If I’m listening and I’ve narrowed down the type of real estate investing, let’s say I’ve determined what type is a good fit for me at least to get started, I thought a little bit about the team or finding that agent who is going to help me overtime, build out that team. The next question I think that comes to mind, especially in the current market is, where does one find a good investment property? Am I leaning on my team here, am I doing my own search on Zillow? Nate, what are your thoughts here?

[0:14:11.2] NH: Yeah, I think it’s a common question we get and I think the misconception that comes to us often is, the only way to find a good investment property deal is off-market because especially if you listen to some of the bigger players, people that are doing this for a long time, they find some of their best deals off-market but that’s not the only place to find them and so I think, again, that’s another intimidation factor that David and I really focused on dispelling is that there are absolutely deals that you can find on Zillow on the MLS or your real estate agent, you can go off-market and there’s advantages and disadvantages to doing that but you don’t have to.

Even something as simple as connecting with a good agent, getting an MLS, auto email setup and what I mean by that is, you put your criteria and your budget into the system and every morning, you’re going to get an email that says, “Here are the houses that meet your criteria,” and starting to understand your market, you’d be surprised at how quickly you’ll start to find a deal because now, you know everything in that market and so when a property pops up, now all of a sudden, you know, “Yeah, that one’s worth looking at” or “No, we can skip it, that’s not worth our time.” It just makes that deal-finding so much easier.

We were actually just talking about this last night on the none to one course about an individual that’s like, “I know there’s exactly 10 duplexes available in this particular area when the 11th one pops up, I know what to do in terms of whether or not it’s worth offering on” and that is how you really understand the market and when a good investment property comes along, you can really take action on it.

[0:15:29.4] DB: Yeah, I think that’s really important. One of the things that Nate, that you said there was the word criteria. I think that that makes it so helpful for a real estate agent that you’re working with when you define, we need to say, I’m looking for a great investment property, the realtor in the other side there is like, “What precisely do you mean? What am I looking out for you?”

That can be really puzzling but if you’re saying that, “I’m looking for a duplex between this street and this street, around this school” when you can be that clear. “At this price point, I want one half to be vacant, one half to be tenanted because I want to move in and house hack.”

Whatever those criteria are, the more precise and specific that you can get for that real estate agent, the easier it will be to find a search, even if there are only 10 on the market right now in that example, it’s so much easier to identify that when it pops up and to jump quickly, which is a big thing in this market is not falling into analysis paralysis once you see that opportunity but being ready to jump on that when it shows it face.

[0:16:29.3] TU: Yeah, speaking of analysis paralysis, you know, I think that pharmacists, it’s safe to say are very numbers-oriented and so when I hear you guys talk about like criteria and is it worth it, I am sure that many would be relieved if there is a sure-fire way to run numbers, identify if an investment is a good one or not and so you guys just released episode 50 where you talked about a spreadsheet analysis.

That brings comfort to me as a pharmacist, right? I can put numbers into the spreadsheet and that can at least help guide me. Tell me a little bit about how someone can use math to evaluate an investment and what that looks like?

[0:17:02.7] DB: Yeah, the math I think sounds intimidating right? When we talk about math pharmacist think like amino glycosides and it gets really complex in a hurry but when we talk about math in the real estate standpoint, it is relatively simple compared to what we do in the pharmacy world.

There is a common misconception that as long as the rent is higher than the mortgage payment, I will be making money and I feel like that is one of the key drivers behind the episode that we had to walk through the numbers and what are the other expenses that you may not be anticipating but they factor in.

So things like paying a property manager, if you choose to not self-manage the property or paying for those repairs and those larger expenses like we mentioned the roof and the furnace and things like that that if you own the property long enough, you will have to replace those things and setting aside money for that.

There are a lot of other smaller expenses that are easier to overlook and so again, that’s kind of the driver of setting up that spreadsheet and not just setting that up to make sure that those categories are captured but also setting that up with some notes in there to make sure that the information going in is good.

If you have your estimates wrong on each of those categories, it’s going to be a garbage in garbage out kind of analysis and it will be hard to trust those numbers, so we try to spend some time in that episode to talk through what are those categories, how might you estimate those, how would you get a little more precise in that math so that you have a better idea of how you might expect that property to perform from an investing standpoint.

[0:18:33.2] NH: Yeah, really good point David about the numbers and not getting too lost in the spreadsheet. It is important to use and it’s a great way to start using math to evaluate a property but you’d be surprised the amount of things that you can catch that don’t have to do with math, right? Maybe the property you’re looking at is on the same street as another one that you like or another one you are comparing it to but it just so happens to be right across the school district line.

So now, it’s not the same school district, which means it affects the property value or it affects the rent rate and so there is all these little nuances that can go along with it, and again, that’s where your team can kind of come in and help you out. Again, relying on that real estate agent, relying on maybe a property manager to help with rent rates and just taking a double look at things, once you’ve done the analysis to make sure that it actually marches out in real life.

If you are interested too, I don’t think we’ve dropped this here but I would mention in episode 50, we actually put together that spreadsheet that you can download yourself. If you head over to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/analysis, you can download that spreadsheet for free. A great way to again, run the numbers the same way that David and I do.

[0:19:25.8] TU: Awesome, thank you guys so much for putting that together. Again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/analysis, we’ll link to that in the show notes. All right, so we’ve talked about several things so far. We have talked about the importance of having a strong personal financial foundation before we jump into real estate investment. We’ve talked about the different categories, the aspect of forming the team, and how you potentially find and evaluate an investment property.

Let’s transition to some common FAQs that you all hear from folks that are getting started in real estate investing. David, the first one here is, “Can I only invest close to where I live? Don’t I need to see the house before I buy and drive by the house regularly?” this concept of investing in my backyard or perhaps, is there an opportunity to invest at a distance?

[0:20:11.5] DB: Yeah, it’s a great question, one that we hear often and it has come up quite a few times in the none to one course particularly when we are talking with pharmacists that live in really pricey markets where it just feels intimidating to try to buy in that area compared to for instance the Midwest where Nate and I live and where properties are much more affordable than something on one of the coast.

I think the short answer is you don’t have to invest where you live. It may be less intimidating to invest or to go through your first investment process close to you and that is something that I did personally. We bought a house that was very close that I drove past on my way to work and so it was just very simple to keep an eye on that and to feel that kind of sense of security until I started doing that and realized like really not bringing a lot of value to this.

When I walk a property compared to when a contractor or realtor walks a property, they see a lot more than I see. When I drive by that house, I’m like, “Well, it is still there, it hasn’t burned down” I mean, there’s not really a lot of value that I brought to that so we started overtime in an area about a 45-minute drive from where I live, which I know to a lot of people that’s a daily commute, right?

That is not super far but it’s the point where we’ll buy a house, there have been houses that I have not been inside or driven by because we just value that team so much and the team perspective that if the contractor has walked it, if the realtors walked it, if the property manager is on board, there’s again, just not a lot of value that I bring to that equation. Again, even though it is not far away, we’re investing in houses that are far enough away that we’re not going there and we’re not in that day to day aspect of the investing, which is really helpful when you work a full-time pharmacist job and you don’t want to be distracted by your real estate investing.

[0:22:04.2] NH: As someone that does both in state and out of state myself, I totally attest to that like the ones that are out of state are so nice because I don’t have to worry about them, and then the ones that are in-state, you end up doing what I did, which is spend pretty much my entire Saturday painting and demoing a basement this weekend, so you can fall into that trap pretty easily.

[0:22:21.4] TU: You beat me to it Nate, before we hit record you are talking about your time spent this weekend and I was just thinking about that in terms of being in your backyard. David, one of the stories that I remember you telling early, I can’t remember if it was snow removal or mowing the lawn but you had mentioned that itch. That hey, I drive by this property, I see it all the time and I maybe have a tendency to think like, “Ah maybe I don’t have to depend on the team. I could save a little bit of money if I just shoveled the snow myself” right?

Obviously as you build out a portfolio, as you have, and of course you’ve built out a team that has helped you but that risk, I guess if you call it that can be real when you see the property so often.

[0:22:56.2] DB: Oh absolutely, yeah. I have vivid terrible memories of like six in the morning standing there with a snow shovel because the house was halfway between where I live and where I work and I am like, “Oh, I could just do this real fast” and then my feet are soaking wet and freezing and all that kind of stuff, it’s like why did I just pay someone the five or ten dollars or whatever it would be to shovel this?

Why did I feel like that was a good use of my time at six in the morning? So yeah, with some of this stuff there is some healthy separation when you’re investing just far enough out that you aren’t tempted to go run and do these things yourself.

[0:23:30.3] TU: Nate, the second question here and David hit on this briefly but I want to come back to it is this idea of is it a good investment if the rent is more than the mortgage and what’s the potential trap in that and what are some things that folks could be looking for to help avoid that?

[0:23:44.9] NH: Yeah, I think this actually goes back to that spreadsheet we talked about was it is not just simple numbers of, “Okay, the rent is 1,500 and the mortgage is 1,200 so cool, I am cash flowing 300 bucks a month” like that is not actually how the math works, right? We need to figure out a lot of the other factors that go into it because this is again, it is truly a business. It is an investment and so it has to run itself and by that, I mean that the repairs take care of themselves.

In terms of cost, the capital expenditures, big things like a roof or a furnace that breaks, again, the investment should be paying for all of those, so when we run the math on what a good investment property is, it needs to pay for itself every single year, year in and year out and put money back in your pocket to be considered again, “a good investment property.” I think running those numbers is really important and not just looking at the simple things but truly diving into the details and even though it sounds complicated, you can do this in three minutes, right?

Running the back of the napkin math and then getting into the nitty-gritty details if everything checks out.

[0:24:40.1] DB: Yeah and we try to sneak into that spreadsheet a couple of things too like other rules of thumb that you can look at. For instance, you may expect that the overall rent about half of that rent may go to general expenses like your taxes, your insurance, your repairs, property management, some of those things and so again, if that rent starts looking pretty suspiciously close to the mortgage payment, I get nervous that that property is not going to create positive cash flow every month.

[0:25:09.1] TU: Next question David is, do I have to do major renovations to a property? I think that is one of the fears I know I had, I suspect many have is how handy do I have to be and obviously some of the financial things that can come to this as well. So talk to us through this question.

[0:25:24.9] DB: Yeah, it’s a great question because people that watch HGTV think that yeah, all of these investors that jump in and buy these houses, they spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on these extensive rehabs that take months and multiple crews and it just feels super intimidating. We bought a house late last year that already had a tenant in it. It had just been fixed up, it was a great house and we liked it for the simplicity of not having to do any kind of renovations to that property, so that’s definitely an option.

We’ve also bought houses where all we had to do was go in and do paint and flooring and for a few thousand dollars it was done. So you can do no renovations, you can do minimal renovations or if you want to, if you want to do a pretty extensive rehab, there is potentially more money to be made and you could argue it is a potentially better investment but it may take more time. If time is scarce in your pharmacy world, don’t feel like you have to do major renovations to a property to have a solid real estate investment.

[0:26:27.6] TU: Speaking of time Nate, you know I think one of the common questions that comes up is, do I have to work with a property manager? Could I save a little bit of money here and do this myself? Although recognizing that some time might be involved and invested here. Talk to us about that question of, do I have to work with a property manager?

[0:26:43.8] NH: Yeah and again, I’ll bring in my own experience to kind of speak to this. I manage our local properties myself and then the out of state ones, I absolutely push off to a property manager. I have a foot in both worlds and there are advantages and disadvantages to both. I like doing some of the property management here locally one, because of the cost savings but two, it helps me be a better manager of my property manager.

I know how I want things to operate. I am a very detail-oriented nerdy pharmacist, right? I know how I want it to run. I know what my expectations are and so I can put the same expectations on the property manager that I am hiring so it helps to do both but it is not for everybody. I think David and I talk to people all the time about individuals who quickly identify, “This is not for me” or “I always want to be have a hand in this, I want to be involved. I like talking to my tenants.”

It is across the spectrum, there is no wrong answer to this. I think a lot of it pans down to what do you want to do and how do you want to operate.

[0:27:35.0] DB: Yeah, even when it comes to the property manager I think one thing to consider is, what is your pharmacy job like? There are certain pharmacy jobs where you can be interrupted and take phone calls and manage things two minutes here, three minutes there and there is others where you just absolutely can’t and so for me, I didn’t want to be in a position where I had to take phone calls during the day, I wanted a property manager to create that separation but again, that’s not for everybody.

If you do want to be a little more hands-on, you want to see those things, you want to be able to manage a little more closely, that is not necessarily something that you need to do and you could potentially save money if you are willing to take on those property management tasks yourself.

[0:28:09.7] TU: David, last question I have here relates to financing. Nate and I recently did a home buying webinar. We also did a LinkedIn live session and it seems like one of the topics that has a lot of interest that relates to the pharmacist’s home loan products where there is either a low down payment or in some of the physician loan products are out there, a zero down payment.

So often, I think folks might be wondering as we translate that from primary residence to real estate investment properties, are there zero down or close to zero down payment options for investment properties or what does that look like?

[0:28:41.9] DB: The short answer is not really but kind of. So when it comes to real estate investing, if you are just going to go out and like I mentioned before, finding a property that already has a tenant in it that’s already fixed up, the lending options are mostly putting a pretty decent down payment, 20, 25% something like that down on a property like that. That is the most common type.

If you are trying to get into real estate investing with less money down, there are options that just take a little bit more creativity or finding a loan product that aren’t quite as common. What we did in our first rental is we bought a property that we thought would be a good rental someday and we moved into it and we lived there for a period and then when we were done with that property and we were ready to move on to another personal residence, we kept that original property.

So that is where if you’re buying a property to live in with a zero down payment or very low down payment mortgage, you can often times keep those properties as rentals when you move somewhere else. If you do zero down to move into it personally, two, three years later, you do zero down and move into something else and you retain that property, that can particular in the price of your market save you from that 20, 25% down payment that can feel kind of overwhelming to save up for, for a real estate investment standpoint.

[0:29:59.2] TU: Great stuff guys. We’ve covered a lot of ground in a short period of time and I would highly encourage folks if they aren’t yet tuning in to the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast, each and every Saturday morning a new episode goes live, please make sure to do so. We’ll link to that in the shownotes, you can find it on Apple podcast or wherever you listen to your podcast.

Also, if you are not yet a part of the YFP Real Estate Investing Facebook group, we’ll link to that in the shownotes as well. A great opportunity to come together with a community of other pharmacists that are everywhere in the real estate investing journey from, “Hey, I wanting to learn more, I am thinking about it” to “I am actually pulling the trigger on the first property” to “I am beginning to build my real estate portfolio.”

David and Nate, thank you so much for taking time to come on the show, I really appreciate it.

[0:30:37.0] NH: Yeah, happy to be here.

[0:30:38.6] DB: Thanks so much.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:30:40.0] TU: Before we wrap up today’s show, let’s hear an important message from our sponsor, Insuring Income. If you are in the market to add own occupation disability insurance, term life insurance or both, Insuring Income would love to be your resource. Insuring Income has relationships with all of the high quality disability insurance and life insurance carrier you should be considering and can help you design coverage to best protect you and your family.

Head over to Insuringincome.com/yourfinancialpharmacist or click on their link in the shownotes to request quotes, ask a question or start down your own path of learning more about this necessary protection.

[DISCLAIMER]

As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information of the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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YFP 250: 10 Takeaways from 50 Financial Conversations with Pharmacists

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10 Takeaways from 50 Financial Conversations with Pharmacists

On today’s episode, sponsored by Splash Financial, YFP Director of Business Development, Justin Woods, PharmD talks about 10 takeaways from more than 50 discovery calls he’s conducted, where he has had a close look at the financial goals and concerns of pharmacists across the country.

About Today’s Guest

Justin Woods, PharmD received his Doctor of Pharmacy degree from Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences, completed two years of postgraduate residency training at The Ohio State University College of Pharmacy, and is currently in his final semester at the University of Nebraska at Omaha pursuing a Masters in Business Administration degree.

Justin has spent nearly 10 years as a practicing pharmacist in community and specialty pharmacy settings. Originally from Upstate New York, Justin met his wife, Sara, also a pharmacist, during residency in Columbus, OH. They lived in Omaha, NE for four years and currently reside in Richmond, VA.

Justin is looking forward to connecting with our community and communicating the value of YFP to help pharmacists on a similar path as himself toward achieving financial freedom.

Episode Summary

Knowing the steps to reach your financial goals can be overwhelming and confusing, particularly at the start. YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, sits down with Justin Woods, PharmD, a fellow pharmacist and YFP Director of Business Development. Currently, Justin leads the discovery call process designed to help individuals determine whether or not the comprehensive financial planning services at YFP Planning comprehensive are a good fit for them. Since joining the YFP team in November 2021, Justin has conducted more than 50 of these discovery calls. Justin talks about ten takeaways he has had from these conversations. Justin shares his unique experience working at YFP and how he has gone from a fan of the podcast to the Director of Business Development. Justin explains how his prior experience as a YFP Planning client helps him conduct discovery calls, the benefits of discovery calls, what makes the YFP approach to financial planning different, and the best time to start your financial planning journey. Finally, Justin details why financial planning requires a substantial investment of time and money, why the transparency of the fees involved is so important, and addresses the most common question he hears, “What’s the return on investment?”

Key Points From This Episode

What YFP Planning has to offer clients and what discovery calls are.
Why people feel guilty about their financial situation when seeking advice.
The concerns clients have regarding saving up for retirement.
The prevalence of questions and interest that Justin experiences regarding real estate.
A brief outline of the concerns around repayment of student debt and the PSLF program.
Why YFP Planning services are suited for non-pharmacists as well.
The importance of involving both partners in the planning process.
When is the best time to begin the financial planning process.
Justin outlines some of the fees associated with the planning process.
An explanation of the “fee-only” model that YFP Planning uses.
Challenges around estimating the return on investment for clients.
The benefits of coupling your financial plan with a tax plan.

Highlights

“Generally speaking, if you have the motivation to book a discovery call, to find time in your busy schedule to prioritize your financial wellness, you’re making a big step and that should be acknowledged.” — Justin Woods, PharmD [0:11:24]

“In most models of financial planning, the more that you put money into an IRA, brokerage accounts, the more the advisor gets paid.” — Justin Woods, PharmD [0:16:34]

“We’re called Your Financial Pharmacist, but our planning services are technically for people of all income levels, all career backgrounds.” — Justin Woods, PharmD [0:21:47]

“Over time, investments are a tool to actually combat inflation and, with proper allocation, keeping expenses in your investment accounts low, your investments will grow with the market.” — Justin Woods, PharmD [0:30:13]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] TU: Hey, everybody. Tim Ulbrich here, and thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast where, each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I had a chance to welcome fellow pharmacist and YFP director of business development, Justin Woods on to the show. Justin leads our discovery call process designed to help individuals determine whether or not YFP Planning and its comprehensive financial planning services are a good fit for them. Since joining the YFP team in November 2021, Justin has conducted more than 50 of this discovery calls.

And on today’s show, we talk about 10 takeaways he has had from these conversations where he’s had a close look at the financial goals and concerns of pharmacists across the country. Some of my favorite moments from the show include hearing Justin talk about the various guilt individuals have when reaching out to a financial planner, whether that be about a previous mistake, join the club, feeling like they could be doing more or even as you’ll hear Justin say, having too much cash on hand.

Also, hearing Justin talk about determining when the timing is right to work with a planner and why there is a cost to not starting with the financial planner. Why planning requires a substantial investment of time and money and why the transparency of the fees involved is so important and how he answers the most common questions he gets, which is, “What’s the return on investment of the planning services?” Okay, let’s hear from today’s sponsor and then jump into my interview with Justin.

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[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:16.8] TU: Justin, welcome to the show.

[0:02:18.4] JW: Hey, Tim. Pleasure to join you. A bit surreal, actually, since I’ve been a long-time listener of the podcast since 2017 now, and now feature as a guest in addition to being part of the YFP team.

[0:02:29.0] TU: We are so glad, Justin, to have you as a part of the team. You and I have known each other for sometime on the pharmacy world, we completed residencies a few years apart of your house at University College of Pharmacy, had some great shared mentors there and are really excited to have you as a part of the YFP team.

[0:02:45.2] JW: Definitely. One quick point before we get started, I don’t want our listeners to think this podcast is having an issue buffering when I’m speaking. I do have a stutter or as I like to say, I speak with a remix. That is my one disclaimer for folks who might not know me since I’m human and you may hear a stutter periodically throughout this episode.

[0:03:06.1] TU: Appreciate that, Justin. So, here we are, episode 250, we just crossed a million downloads. Thank you so much to the YFP community, the support that you’ve provided us since launching the podcast in July of 2017. Really, a surreal moment for us and for folks that had been listening for a while, if you haven’t yet done so, if you could please do us a favor and leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcast, wherever you’re listening to the show, we’d really appreciate that and be a great way to help others find the show as well. Thank you so much for the ongoing support that everyone has provided.

Today, we’re going to be talking, Justin and I, about 10 takeaways that he has had in 50 plus conversations with pharmacist about t heir financial goals, about their financial plan, since he joined the YFP team in mid-November of 2021. These conversations come through the discovery call that we offer folks and Justin leads these efforts, these discovery calls are an opportunity to learn more about YFP Planning and comprehensive planning services and folks can learn more at yfpplanning.com.

Justin, before we jump into your story, before we talk more about the takeaways that you have had through these 50 plus conversations, give our listeners who may not be familiar with the planning services offered by YFP Planning, more insights into what the discovery call is, why it’s important and what they could expect?

[0:04:31.5] JW: To be honest, hiring a financial planner, it’s a big investment in time and dollars. With that said, our model is worth it for the right people and it’s wrong for some and that’s certainly okay. And through a discovery call, I seek to understand your specific financial needs and concerns. I meet with people who vary, in terms of their season of life.

Some folks are new practitioners building their careers while simultaneously tackling student loan debt, learning how to be efficient with their income, others are growing personally by starting a family or purchasing a home, some are mid-career, seeking to optimize their income, given more cashflow through being debt free here just no longer paying for daycare.

Then we have pharmacists who are near retirement and want to protect the assets that they worked so hard for. Typically, people share, they feel overwhelmed or concerned about their debt. Maybe even frustrated that they’re making a good income but are not progressing financially. I also hear some folks are unsure if they’re optimizing the income they’re making or even afraid that they won’t be financially secure in retirement.

And it is only through a discovery call process that we can uncover your financial why and understand if YFP has solutions that fit your needs. In terms of what to expect when you take that initial step to book a discovery call, you first book the call through our scheduling application that shows you my availability to help find the best time that works with your schedule, we conduct these calls via zoom conference and in fact, when you become a YFP Planning client, you work in a virtual space with your lead planner as well.

The meeting will last 30 to 60 minutes, depending on where their conversation goes. I do take notes throughout the process to capture information in the moment and also because, if you take the next step to become a client of YFP Planning, anything we discuss goes directly to your lead planner to review before your first meeting with them.

[0:06:48.9] TU: Great stuff, Justin, and for folks that are listening, maybe had been following the community for some time and they’re ready to take that step, they can do so. By going to yfpplanning.com, they’ll see that option to schedule a discovery call, they’ll see your face and they can pick a date and time that works for your calendar and works for their schedule as well.

Let’s jump into 10 takeaways that you’ve had. Now that we framed what the discovery call is, we’re going to talk about 10 takeaways you’ve had through over 50 of these discovery call, financial conversations with pharmacists over the last few months.

I think the first one is a good segue from what you just shared that this is really about discovering more about an individual’s financial plan and their goals, it’s hence called the discovery call and number one, I think the thing that we first see is that individuals might be seeking financial advice in these calls and my question is, what’s the problem here, isn’t that the team at YFP Planning has expertise in? Tell us more about this one.

[0:07:44.7] JW: Yes, right, exactly. Trust me, I’m not an expert in personal finance. You can certainly ask my own YFP financial planner, Kelly Reddy-Heffner. In fact, I’ve made many mistakes that you, Tim, outlined in episode 247 of 10 common financial mistakes pharmacists make.

Realistically, five months ago, I was a practicing pharmacist. I’ve spent 10 years in community and especially pharmacy settings including two years of residency at Ohio State, go Buckeyes. If you’re listening right now and afraid I’m going to test your financial literacy on a discovery call, I promise, you have nothing to worry about when I’m on that other side of the screen but even though, I’m not a financial planner, I do understand our comprehensive financial planning service better than most folks since I see it from the inside as part of the YFP team.

But my wife, Sara, also a pharmacist and I are YFP Planning clients as well. For a bit of background about the industry, a survey of financial advisors show that advisors spend 15 to 20% of their time on business development activities as in meeting with perspective clients and in our model, our financial planners focus solely on financial planning and I lead those discovery calls.

[0:09:10.1] TU: That’s a great call, Justin. I don’t think that’s something we’ve talked about before on the show that the model we’ve chosen is to really let the planners be really good lead planners so they can focus on the needs and the issues that the client is bringing forth and then obviously, your role, and Tim and I have shared some of this as well, to really focus on some more of those business development activities and I would even further contend, Justin, that I often said this.

Hey, I’m not a financial planner as well, I love the topic, I love to learn but I think there’s often value and not getting in the tactical weeds, right? In that first call, when you’re really just trying to understand, what are the goals, what are the hopes, what are the dreams, what are the pain points, what are the problems so that we don’t get sucked into very detailed student loan repayment or investing strategy but rather, we can just really learn about what is of greatest need and significance to the client. It’s so important early on in that relationship.

Number two, Justin, I often felt like you know, I still joke with folks as that I feel like sometimes when I do a talk or people come and talk to me, it’s almost like financial confession, you know, sometimes. Number two is I think that folks may feel like, “Hey, I’m coming with some guilt about the financial situation.” This one resonates with me, I felt a lot of financial guilt and pressure early on in my journey. Tell us more about what you’re seeing here?

[0:10:25.2] JW: Yeah, this was an element I honestly did not anticipate early on when I started taking discovery calls, particularly knowing my own financial mistakes. It has been fairly common for people to acknowledge they feel guilty or feel ashamed of how sharing or admitting a piece of their financial lifestyle that they’re not proud of, it could be related to a number of things, like their lack of a budget or consistently sticking to a budget, maybe the amount of student loan debt they have, not being able to clearly define their financial goals and more recently, many people have shared, they feel guilty about having a large amount of money sitting in their checking or savings account since their expenses were minimized during the pandemic and they just don’t know what the best strategy is but also know, it’s losing value sitting in a checking or savings account.

Generally speaking, if you have the motivation to book a discovery call to find time in your busy schedule to prioritize your financial wellness, you’re making a big step and that should be acknowledged. That should be celebrated. It’s okay to be human, you’re obviously aware that a change needs to happen on your financial path and whether financial planning can achieve what you need, it’s something we’ll talk thorough together. It’s similar to working with patients, right? When you have an engaged patient, ready to make a change, there are certainly a greater likelihood for success.

[0:12:00.8] TU: Absolutely, and then, number three on our list here of common things you’re hearing through these 50 plus conversations is, you know, folks coming in with questions, perhaps some concern about saving for retirement, why is this such a common concern?

[0:12:16.0] JW: Yeah, this is the second biggest concern from potential clients is saving for retirement. They share that they feel behind for retirement but they’re not sure why they feel that way. They say, “I just know I don’t want to work forever” or “I’m not confident, I’m on the right track for retirement because I don’t know what the finish line is or how to track my progress.”

The typical question is, “Is retirement and age, is retirement a dollar amount?” People often admit that because it is a goal that’s decades away, it’s hard to relate to and objectify. Honestly, that’s just human psychology. The further away something is, the harder it is to relate to. Typically, when people bring up retirement, I ask them, “You know, of the steps you’ve taken so far, do you think you’re on the right track?” and inevitably, the answer is a clear “No” or they refer to the chart on the dashboard of your 401(k) account, right?

Through the planning process, our planners help clients conduct what’s called a “nest egg calculation” or the amount of money that you would need to retire comfortably. The last time I did this calculation for my wife and I, it was about 3.3 million dollars and this is generally where people, look at me, I haver three million heads, right? Since it’s a big number, way in the future.

Whether retirement’s 20 years away, 10 years away, 40 years away, the big question is, what does that actually mean in today’s dollars and what do I do with that number? I think a good financial plan will really take that information, distill it down to, “Okay, let’s discount that information back to today’s numbers, what does that mean for how much we need to be saving each and every month?” and then, let’s begin to put a plan in place based on the tools we have.

Like a 401(k), a 403(b), and IRA. Automate that plan so we’re contributing in a tax efficient manner or keeping the fees low and we’re allowing compound interest to do its magic and time, value, money to kind of take its course.

[0:14:34.8] TU: Great stuff, Justin. I think we often think about retirement as a hope, a wish, a dream or a big scary data off in the future or we do get a little bit more granular, maybe punch some numbers in a calculator and then the number that’s spit out were like, that feels impossible, right?

[0:14:49.5] JW: Right.

[0:14:50.5] TU: I feel behind or I’m worried about that becoming a reality and I think, what I really hear there is that value in coaching of bringing that to life and then, let’s make sure we put that into numbers that mean something today and let’s also make sure we’re prioritizing that along with other goals that we’re working on with the financial planning, that’s great stuff.

Number four, the prevalence of questions and interest that you’re seeing in real estate. Both purchase of a primary home as well as in investment properties. I think this – I will say, this doesn’t surprise me, right? We’ve seen a lot of growing interest in real estate investing.

Part of the reason we launched the Real Estate Investing Podcast, we certainly have felt the interesting home buying, could be a first home, second home, obviously we know that that market is pretty wild right now. Tell us more about what you’re seeing here?

[0:15:35.2] JW: Yeah, I mentioned a bit ago that retirement was the second top concern of people I meet with, another top five concern is home purchase. What I found is that this is not limited to people who are buying their first home. I also hear this concern from people who have outgrown their current home or maybe looking for a second home, a vacation home.

Followed closely behind that topic of home purchase is interest in real estate investing. The prevalence of this topic as you said could be due to the nature of our podcast content, particular when they and David on the Real Estate Investing Podcast.

But for most people, it seems like real estate is an outlet for their entrepreneurial spirit and helps also create passive income but I also think it’s due to the nature of our fee only financial planning model. As Tim Baker shared in episode one of the Real Estate Investing Podcast, in most models of financial planning, the more that you put money into an IRA, brokerage accounts, the more the advisor gets paid.

They’re not incentivized to say, “Hey, maybe you should dump $50,000 into this property?” Because again, it takes away from that traditional investment vehicle. But our team does view real estate investing as a method to build wealth and we have the resources to help people through that process if that is the path you want to take.

[0:17:10.4] TU: Great stuff, this is another example, just like we often talked about with, “Hey, when you work with a planner, if you’ve got student loans and they don’t understand student loans, that’s a problem” right? If you’re working with a planner that maybe doesn’t prioritize or value real estate investing as an option, right?

We’re not saying this for everyone but it’s an option to consider, has experienced either themselves or advising other folks. Such an important distinction in that relationship. Number five, to no surprise, we’ve just talked about this in episode 248 of the podcast as I mentioned is, folks coming with questions, confusion, angst, excitement, any other emotion I think, surrounding PSLF. Tell us more ab out what you’re seeing here?

[0:17:49.6] JW: Yeah, as you said, if you’re listening and new to the term PSLF, definitely queue up episode 248 to learn more about the program and hear some of the pharmacist success stories there.

Since I did not practice as a pharmacist for a nonprofit or a 503(c) organization, I wasn’t eligible for PSLF but through my role here at YFP, I quickly learned how overwhelming and confusing the process can be for some people and personally, I would want an expert to help me through that process, to help me get thousands of dollars wiped away after a hundred twenty payments. That is what I hear on discovery calls as well.

People are confused about the nuances of the program, confused about how to optimize the repayment strategy in a tax efficient way and need a partner to help get them across the finish line. Obviously, I have a biased opinion but I’ve heard the success stories and I see the joy our team shares on Slack when they help a particular planning client get those loans forgiven. If you’re a pharmacist listening and need the support of a team to give you that peace of mind that we can get you to the finish line, YFP Planning is your best option.

[0:19:13.7] TU: Awesome stuff. Number six, Justin, is spouses or significant others where maybe one is a pharmacist and one is not and you know, maybe wondering, “Is YFP Planning even for us? Do we both have to be pharmacists or do you guys work with non-pharmacist?” Tell us more about what you’re seeing here.

[0:19:29.7] JW: Yeah, I wanted to include this observation since it was brought up during one discovery meeting and generally, if one person has a question many other folks do too. In this example, we were nearing the end of this particular discovery call and the pharmacist shared, “Even though I’m a pharmacist, my husband is not and I want to make sure that he’s represented throughout the planning process” and I could have not been more thrilled that she brought that up.

Because one, it taught me that I need to acknowledge upfront at our planning process is not just suited for pharmacists. Obviously, we’re called Your Financial Pharmacist but technically only 80 to 85% of our clients are pharmacists and the majority of those households we work with, only one person is a pharmacist. The active involvement of both partners regardless of their background we feel is critical to the planning process.

In fact, when you book a discovery call, we ask you to find a time that both you and your partner are available. If you’re married, engaged, maybe not married but living with your partner for many years, you generally have shared assets, maybe not combined finances, which is a step we walk clients through during the planning process if that makes sense but you generally own things together like a home.

In these cases, it is impossible to optimize the financial planning process if we don’t have all the decision makers at the table and I’ve learned this the hard way that generally speaking, if we conduct a discovery call with only one partner, we get to the end and they say, “Oh this sounds great but let me check with my spouse” and then what we end up doing is going through the discovery call process all over again because that partner may have a different perception of money, its impact and also their own financial goals.

It is critically important that both partners are involved in the discovery call and in that initial planning phase should you become a client of YFP Planning. So long story longer, yes, we’re called Your Financial Pharmacist but our planning services are technically for people of all income levels, all career backgrounds. It just has to fit what you’re looking for.

[0:21:57.2] TU: Yeah, so important, Justin. I’m a firm believer – I wrote an article way back when about 10 financial discussion every couple should have whether they decide to merge accounts or not and how assets are joined or not, whether they’re married or they’re not married, just healthy discussion for folks to have about getting on the same page financially even having an understanding where they agree to disagree in certain areas just to have those conversations.

We believe as you mentioned that outcome of the planning process is so much stronger, so much richer when both folks have a voice because what we often see and I’ve experienced this first hand with my wife, Jess, and I and Tim Baker, being our planner, is that you have that hour with Tim is great but the two hours afterwards and the conversation later that night and that weekend throughout that week where we are then discussing among ourselves, it’s so helpful to have that third party and to make sure both folks are present, to start that all the way at the beginning as they are evaluation that service to begin with.

Number seven, Justin, you shared with me kind of this chicken and the egg of timing of when to work with a planner, meaning that, “Hey, Justin, I’ve got a lot going on and the need is there for help but also just wondering of like maybe I should just wait to a certain point” right? Maybe I am in a busy phase of life and I should just wait until we get through things in the next six or 12 years but the other side of that coin is, right now I am looking ahead. I am in the middle of a lot of things where I could use the value, the help and a planner. So, talk to us through this one.

[0:23:18.0] JW: Yeah, so I heard Tim Baker share a phrase during a discovery call when I first started and it’s that, “Transition points bring lots of financial decisions.” The emphasis is that there is a cost to not starting with a financial planner. If you see the value that it can bring to you or your family, it will continue to cost you to not get started. It could be a tangible thing like paying more in interest on student loans, right?

Or money sitting in your savings account that’s being eroded by inflation or possibly more time lost toward your short-term goals like a home, vacation, car purchase, starting a family or even just stress around balancing multiple priorities. I hear people say, “Let me get rid of credit card debt and let me streamline my budget before I hire a financial planner” and I try to challenge those people that, “Isn’t that the reason you book this call because you need help with some of these aspects of your financial life?”

I also hear other people say, “Let’s wait until student loan repayments start” or “Maybe after our wedding” or “After I started my new job” and I totally understand that these transition points are stressful and that it’s difficult to think about adding one more task to your plate but that’s the beauty of financial planning. It is more about the process than the plan itself and through that process, these points of transition become easier to manage personally and maybe even enjoyable with less financial stress.

[0:25:00.4] TU: Great stuff. Number eight has to do with the fees and I think the unawareness of the fees and this is really insightful for you to come into the YFP Planning our fee-only, our pricing model, which I think is a little bit non-traditional to the industry and to get some experience but generally here, what you are seeing is an unawareness of the fees associated with the planning. Folks realizing maybe there is a lot of variation in the industry but not knowing really what to expect here in terms of that investment of money. Tell us more.

[0:25:27.7] JW: Yeah, as I mentioned before, hiring a financial planner is an investment of both time and dollars so we obviously talk about pricing during the discovery call but what I’ve noticed is that generally people have no idea how much a financial planner costs or even how a financial planner gets paid. Tim Baker tells the story of when he decided to become a financial planner.

He went to his mother and said, “I am changing career paths to become a financial planner” and his mother told him it was the stupidest idea he’s ever had since she doesn’t pay her financial planner anything and that lack of awareness around fees is not unique in the financial service industry. I actually started working with an advisor back in 2014 with another company and when I went through the discovery call process myself out of curiosity if YFP Planning was a good fit for me and my family, Tim Baker really educated me on all the hidden fees.

Since that point, I’ve learned that payment models for financial planning come in more varieties than Skittles and Jolly Ranchers combined. The most common fee though is called “assets under management” where your planner will charge you a percentage of the money you invest with them. This percentage can range based on the services they provide but it is generally at least one percent.

What I didn’t know is that there are also expense ratios assigned to those investments or funds based on where they are invested and since you need to pay a small fee for the company of the fund to handle those day-to-day operations but if you are not careful, those expense ratios can really impact the overall performance of your portfolio in the long run and that is where our model is different, right?

We’re fee only, we’re fully transparent about the fees that we charge. We believe that fee only is the best way to operate as a financial planner because it reduces conflict of interest. Similar to the real estate example that I just shared, in reality most folks don’t wake up one day and decide to hire a financial planner. You typically hire a financial planner to solve a problem and generally it’s not a math problem.

It’s because you want to live a richer life than you currently have and achieve your version of financial freedom and we believe a fee only model is the best way to keep your financial goals a top priority.

[0:28:12.8] TU: Justin, you’ve mentioned now twice that it’s a significant investment of time and money and you and I are both analytical pharmacists and I suspect you talk with many folks that are like, “Okay, it’s an investment of money, I get that” maybe they have even talked with someone before where it’s quote “free financial planning” and then they realize otherwise that there is either hidden fees or perhaps sale of products in their best interest.

That is really where the revenue might be coming from and truly not providing confidence of planning, so I value the transparency. I understand there is a fee involved with that but naturally the next question here is, what’s the ROI, right? What is the ROI? Tell me more about what you’re hearing from folks as they’re trying to make this decision of, “This is an investment of time and money, then what’s the potential return?”

[0:28:58.4] JW: Yeah, this has to be the number one question and I’m mastering a discovery call and it is very difficult to answer since as a comprehensive financial planning firm, we prioritize your complete financial life. When some people think of a pharmacist, they think of counting pills and I say some people because I like to think and believe that that narrative is changing.

The point I’m trying to make is that when most people think of financial advisers, they think of investments and in our model, investments is only a small piece of the financial plan. A few people have recently asked me, “What is your investment philosophy for combating inflation?” and one, I’m not a financial planner so I probably don’t have the best technical answer and two, if that’s your primary concern that’s fine but we’re probably not your people and that’s okay because in general, the market is efficient, right?

93% of active management advisors, so those who attempt to beat the market, 93% of them fail, right? There are pockets of inefficiencies like we’ve noticed recently but overtime, investments are a tool to actually combat inflation and with proper allocation, keeping expenses in your investment accounts low, your investments will grow with the market.

[0:30:24.9] TU: Yeah, great stuff. Definitely as Tim always say, which I wholeheartedly agree with his investments as you mentioned it is one part of the plan among many others, an important part but it is one part of the plan and in traditional planning and part because of how the industry was born and how fees are assessed, often you know that maybe with some insurance might be the bulk of the plan and there might be things like, “Hey, those student loans will just take care of themselves” or “That home buying like nah, not so much us” or “Investing in real estate, not so much.”

I think when you look at really good comprehensive planning, which I am bias of the work that Robert and Kelly’s team does and under Tim’s leadership with YFP Planning, a really good comprehensive planning will again, get us out of the silo and be really looking at how do we make sure we’re taking care of our future self. We need to be thinking about that – how do we also make sure we’re living a rich life along the way, right?

Yeah, we need to be saving and investing and in doing so efficiently and saving on fees and taking advantage of the tax benefits but we also need to be thinking about many, many other parts of the financial plan including the protection parts as we think about things on the insurance side, on the estate planning side, obviously the debt management piece and then all the other things that come throughout life and throughout the financial plan.

That takes time, an investment of time, an investment of money and obviously there’s benefit in that being transparent as you mentioned. Number ten is what you’ve I think seen often, which I will hear often as well is, “You do taxes?” and I think a lot of individuals may not be thinking about the synergies between the tax and the financial plan or the power of the synergies between the tax and the financial plan.

What are you hearing here and what perceived value are you getting that folks see of, “Okay, well, what could be possible if we really have the tax plan rowing in the same direction as the financial plan?”

[0:32:10.9] JW: Yeah, as you said, the synergies between taxes and the financial plan, that’s something that I’m still personally learning about since I too did not understand that for a long time how interconnected they are and in this time of year, a lot of people share with me how their tax returns went. I hear from people who own quite a bit of money and then excitement from other people expecting a big refund.

Previous Justin would have also been excited about a big refund but my perception is changing through my own comprehensive financial planning process. If you’re listening right now and are expecting a big refund, let me ask you how would you have spent those dollars better throughout the year? Could you have put up a bigger down payment on your home? Could you have added more to your 401(k) or investment contributions?

Could you finally leave your state and go on vacation, right? When you get a tax refund, you’ve basically given the government money interest free and through our planning process in quarter one, we file your taxes for you but the real magic happens during the year through our tax planning service where we ask you for a couple of documents and by understanding your situation, we can estimate either how much money you will owe or how much money you will get back and neither of those are great options.

We want to get as close to zero as possible, so we outline strategies that we can proactively put in place during the remainder of that year to again, get that number as close to zero as possible because that shows us that we’re being as efficient with our income as we possibly can.

[0:34:05.7] TU: Well, there you have it, 10 takeaways from 50 plus financial conversations that Justin Woods has had with pharmacists over the last few months and Justin, I can tell you firsthand when you came up with this list of ten, I’ve done a handful of discovery calls prior to your arrival. Tim Baker has done ten times as much as I have but these are themes that we’ve seen for years.

I think some of the takeaways that you brought here I suspect will resonate with many folks that are listening to this episode. As I listen or hear to this, I’m a pharmacist thinking, “Hey, maybe I am interested in taking this next step to get on a discovery call with Justin and learn more about the planning services” you know, see whether or not it’s a good fit, tell us more about what next step they can take and where can they go to schedule that.

[0:34:46.8] JW: Yeah, thanks for having me, Tim, and I hope that by sharing these observations of mine, it will encourage or maybe even motivate more people listening to consider a discovery call and we can work together to really understand if it’s a good fit for you specifically.

[0:35:03.9] TU: Great stuff and, again, folks can go to yfpplanning.com. You can see an option there to schedule a call and that will allow you to get some time on Justin’s calendar. Justin, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

[0:35:13.8] JW: Thanks, Tim.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[0:35:14.9] TU: Before we wrap up today’s episode of Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, I want to again thank our sponsor, Splash Financial. If you’ve ever considered refinancing your loans, check your rate now through Splash Financial. Refinancing could help you get a lower monthly payment on your student loans or get a lower interest rate.

Splash helps you shop and compare loan refinancing offers across lenders nationwide. Browsing rates through Splash Financial is fast, free and won’t impact your credit and now, when you successfully refinanced $50,000 or more, Splash Financial will give you an extra $500 in cash bonus, using our link at splashfinancial.com/yfp. So, check your rate today and see what you might be able to save at splashfinancial.com/yfp.

[DISCLAIMER]

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

[END]

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