Maximizing Income / Podcast

YFP 185: 10 Financial Moves to Make in 2021

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10 Financial Moves to Make in 2021

Tim Ulbrich talks through 10 financial moves to make in 2021. It’s time to turn the page on 2020 and start 2021 off the right way and that’s with an intentional plan.

Summary

The start of a new year brings an opportunity to reflect, reset, and start fresh. It’s also an incredible time to dig into your finances and become really intentional with your 2021 financial plan. Tim Ulbrich talks through 10 financial moves you should consider in 2021 and how to make them happen.

Here are the 10 financial moves you should consider for 2021:

Simplify and clarify your goals for the year
Revisit the big questions and discussions with your spouse
Take advantage of any low hanging fruit to get a win or two and gain some momentum
Put your goals on automatic…and get out of the way!
Revisit your student loan game plan
Take your tax strategy to the next level
Button up the insurance part of your financial plan
Evaluate where real estate may or may not fit into your financial plan and goals
Update your legacy folder
Set your learning plan
BONUS: Find a community and get a coach for accountability and guidance

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Tim Ulbrich here, and excited to turn the page on the New Year. Here we are, 2021, hard to believe we’re at the start of the new year. And we know that 2020 was a hard year for many, and I’m hopeful that 2021 brings a better year for everyone.

OK, let’s do this. 10 financial moves to consider for 2021. And spoiler alert: I’ve actually got 11, so we’ll have a bonus one at the end. Now, we know every new year, it’s a chance to turn the page, a chance to reset, and yes, it’s just an artificial point in time, a day that is really no different than any other day except obviously for tax reasons and of course, if something is changing at the 1st of the year, whether that be compensation or benefits. But regardless, those aside, it’s an opportunity to turn the page and let’s take advantage of the opportunity to reset. Now, perhaps resetting means that you’re someone who’s on track and it’s just reminding yourself of the plan that you have in place and celebrating the success and the wins that you’ve had thus far and wanting to keep that momentum going forward. Or perhaps the new year means that you feel like you’re not on track. Maybe you’ve got a plan or a plan that you need to dust off, and it’s a chance or an opportunity to reset course and to recorrect for the new year. Or perhaps you don’t have a plan, and it’s time to get one in place and it’s a time to evaluate what are the different parts of the financial plan and considering all of the things that are out there, what are the low-hanging fruit and what are the areas that you can begin to get some momentum on to be able to have longer term success as it relates to your finances?

So No. 1 — as we go to this list towards 10 financial moves to consider for 2021 — No. 1: Simplify and Clarify Your Goals for the New Year. Now, notice I didn’t say set your goals as I suspect that many of you are already doing that. We talk about that on the show all the time, the importance of having an intentional plan heading into the new year or just in general, an intentional plan as it relates to finances to know your compass and know where you are going. So rather, what I’m referring to here is bringing them into focus and getting specific with those goals to make sure that you’re laser-focused on how you’re going to achieve those. So we know, I know, you know, that there are lots of competing financial priorities, regardless of the stage that you are at within your financial plan. So perhaps you’re somebody who’s listening that has been out of school for a decade or more and you’ve worked through maybe the student loan debt that you’ve had, you’ve paid that off and you’re kind of on a next evolution or phase of your financial plan. There’s lots of competing priorities, even after getting rid of those pesky student loans. Or perhaps you’re someone who is a recent graduate or a student that’s listening and you’re trying to figure out, OK, I’ve got this behemoth of my student loans, and how do I begin to think about other things as I also face what is, of course, this big priority that’s right in front of me? Or perhaps you’re someone who’s nearing the retirement age or you’re in the latter part of your career and you’re trying to identify, OK, I’ve done all of this work, I’ve put these things into place and I want to make sure I go into this next phase of my career, next phase of my financial plan, and I do that in a way that is intentional and I do that in a way that is efficient to make sure I achieve the goals that I want to achieve and of course, lots of tax and other considerations that are there as well. So regardless of the stage that you’re in, whether it’s mid-career, end of career, new career, there are lots of competing priorities. And I’m convinced that the priorities, you know, don’t go away. But it’s a matter of how you can identify those and prioritize those to make sure you’re intentional with what you’re trying to achieve in any given period of time. And here, of course, we’re talking about heading into the new year. So if you haven’t already done so, put them down on paper. And my encouragement for you is to leave this to just a few financial goals that you want to make sure that you prioritize and achieve for the year. So I’m going to encourage three goals and that you write them in a way that provides you with the best opportunity to achieve that goal. So making sure you’re specific about the what of the goal, the when you want to achieve that goal by, and the why — what’s the purpose, why does that matter in terms of the rest of your financial plan and why is this specific goal important?

So let me give you an example here. If I were to say, you know, “Beginning Feb. 1, I’m going to allocate an additional $200 per month towards a Roth IRA so that I can grow my long-term savings in a way that aligns with my retirement goals or plan.” So when I get that specific with a what, with a when and a why — so here, we’re talking about what are we doing: an additional $200 per month towards a Roth IRA. When: by Feb. 1. Alright, how does that look in the budget? Now I’ve got an idea of when and how much. Why? So that I can make sure I’m achieving my long-term savings goals. That is a goal that we’re likely or increased likelihood of achieving because we’re getting specific and we can look at the rest of our financial plan to determine whether or not that is feasible and whether or not that is realistic.

Now, before you set your goals, you’ve heard us say this on the show before, you have to be clear on the why, the so what, the purpose. And we’ve talked about why finding your financial why is so important. And you know, really, what we’re trying to answer here is the question of why does this topic of money even matter to you? Or why does this specific goal and achieving this specific goal even matter? Why is this important? Why is this relevant? And that sounds like a relatively simple question, but if you have thought about this in depth before, you know that it is not. This is the “So what?” question. So before you get too deep into the x’s and o’s of any one part of the financial plan, whether that’s debt repayment, whether that’s investing or savings or insurance, whatever that would be, we have to first understand what we’re trying to achieve. And we talk a lot about our vision at YFP of helping pharmacists on their path towards achieving financial freedom. And my challenge to you is what does that concept, what does that term of financial freedom mean for you? There’s no one right answer. And that can certainly — will be certainly different for many folks that are listening to this episode.

So what’s the goal? So a few ideas to get things stirred up, hopefully to get you thinking about this topic a little bit more. I’ve talked with many pharmacists that say, “You know, when I hear financial freedom, I think about flexibility. I think about options of working or perhaps having the choice to work or how much I work or when I work. Even if I really enjoy the work I do.” Or perhaps it’s to be in a position of control with how you’re spending your time or your money. Perhaps it’s to be able to give, to be philanthropic. Perhaps it’s to leave a legacy or to travel without worry or stress or regret. Perhaps it’s to help family members or friends that are in need or be in a position to do that or to start a business or a movement or a foundation or a charity. You get the point. It’s the financial why, it’s the purpose, and that’s really going to help drive the rest of our financial plan. So that’s No. 1, Simplify and Clarify Your Goals. Set three financial goals for the new year. And then the background of those goals should be the purpose, the vision, the why of your financial plan such that if you achieve those goals, you’re one step closer to achieving your financial why.

No. 2, Revisit the Big Questions or Discussions with Your Spouse if this, of course, applicable to you and your personal situation. Could be a significant other as well. Now, I wrote a blog post way back when several years ago titled, “10 Financial Discussions that I Believe Every Couple Should Have.” And we’ll link to that blog post in the show notes. And you know, these are questions such as when you’re balancing financial priorities or making decisions, of all of the financial priorities you have to consider, whether that’s giving, saving for retirement, housing, transportation, paying off debt, and so on, do you and your spouse or significant other agree upon a plan for how you will balance these? How will you prioritize them? How will you fund those goals, in what order and when? Will you be focusing on several at once or just one at a time before moving on to another one? That’s an example of a big question or discussion to have. Another one, for example, might be around giving. How does each individual feel about giving? How much and where? How will this be budgeted for? Another one might be around the level of engagement. Is one individual taking the lead more than the other when it comes to managing the finances? If so, are both individuals aware of the overall financial situation? How do you talk about this topic? How do you communicate this topic? Are there shared accounts, individual accounts? So I’m just scratching the surface here, and I’ll reference you to that post. But my encouragement would be to look at these and maybe several of these you have had, maybe some you need to revisit, some you haven’t had. But the challenge here in No. 2 is to go back and revisit, discuss, rediscuss these questions with your significant other or your spouse with the understanding that the answers to these are of course going to be significant and inform the direction that you take with many parts of the financial plan.

No. 3, Take Advantage of Any Low-Hanging Fruit so that you can get a win or two and get some momentum early on in the year. Now, again, regardless of where you are at in the stage of your career or your financial plan, I think this is a very important concept for us all to consider. Is there any low-hanging fruit that we can get a quick win or two, get some momentum, so that we’re encouraged and motivated and want to be going on with achieving the other perhaps more audacious or bigger goals that we have set out for the year. So things that come to mind here, things that I evaluated myself in 2020, these could be shopping around auto or home insurance or have you looked at this in a while? If not, good chance to understand your coverage, shop these around, see if there’s any you can save without giving up on the quality of those coverages and policies. Perhaps you’re someone who has wanted to get a term life insurance policy in place or that is a need and it fits with your plan but for whatever reason, you haven’t done that. Relatively inexpensive, we’ll talk about insurance here a little bit in a few moments. Maybe it’s refinancing a mortgage. You know, I’m sure you all heard and read about where rates have gone in 2020, certainly probably into 2021, through the pandemic. And perhaps for whatever reason, you haven’t evaluated that. Is that something to consider? Are there any recurring bills that perhaps you’re not aware of or maybe have lost track of or bills that have gone up over time that you might be able to take a fresh look at and negotiate, things like cable and other services. Are you eligible for HSA savings? And we talked about this in episode 165, The Power of a Health Savings Account. But this is an example of a tax-advantaged account where there’s great benefits, the dollars aren’t enormous, but again, perhaps this small victory, this quick win, this low-hanging fruit that can help accelerate the rest of your financial plan. So do any of these resonate? Or are there any others that you would identify of things that you’ve been meaning to do that you know what needs to be done and you want to just take that next step and knock it out and to continue the momentum with other goals in 2021.

No. 4, Put Your Goals on Automatic and Get Yourself Out of the Way. Now, one of my favorite books, I’ve talked about it on the show many times, “I Will Teach You to Be Rich” by Ramit Sethi, he talks about this concept of automation, automation, automation. He goes through great examples of how to do it. We’ve also talked about it on this show, Episode 057, The Power of Automating Your Financial Plan. But the concept is simple: Once you set your financial goals, when your paycheck comes in, you have a system in place so that your goals are being funded right away and that you have a budget behind that to know that you’re not going to be putting yourself in a position where you’re overspending your income each and every month. Now, for those of you that have been doing this for some time, I think this concept of automation is also very important. It’s this concept of prioritizing your goals, paying yourself first rather than hoping you have money left over. And so perhaps it’s revisiting those goals, revisiting the amounts, the timeline, when do you want to achieve those, and building the systems — again, Ramit talks about that in “I Will Teach You to Be Rich,” we talked about it on Episode 057, how to build the systems so that once you get paid, once you have the goals, you’re automatically funding those accounts such that you are essentially assuring — hopefully — that you’re going to achieve those and behaviorally getting yourself out of the way, which often we individually are the biggest barrier to achieving our financial plan. So that’s No. 4, Put Your Goals on Automatic and Get Yourself Out of the Way.

No. 5, Revisit Your Student Loan Game Plan. Now, here we are at the beginning of 2021, ready to turn the page on a new administration in terms of the President and the President’s team, which may or may not bring additional changes around student loans. We don’t know that yet. But what we know of the first of the year, is that we know that the most recent stimulus package that was passed at the end of 2020 did not extend the administrative forbearance on qualifying federal loans that has frozen for the last nine months or so the interest that was due and any payments that were required on those loans. So it’s really been an incredible time period for those that have qualifying federal loans. For good reasons, payments were not due and interest was not accruing on those qualifying federal loans. So what’s going to come next? We don’t know. There’s been lots of hypotheses that have been thrown out there. There’s been several proposals that have been mentioned throughout the presidential debates and leading up to the election. But we don’t know. As of early January 2021, we don’t know what’s going to happen. Now, we do know that if nothing else happens at this point in time, this administrative forbearance is going to expire. But perhaps this could be continued through an executive order, perhaps there’s additional policies and legislation coming into the future. But we don’t know. So my point here is this is the time period, throughout the month of January, to take advantage of this administrative forbearance as long as it lasts — and if it goes on longer, great. If it doesn’t, you’re ready to go. Take advantage of this time period to come up with your student loan repayment plan or to evaluate or re-evaluate your options to make sure that you’ve got the plan in place that’s going to be the best fit for your personal situation. And we talked about this at length on several other episodes, we’ve got lots of resources on the blog, we’ve got, of course, one of our latest books, “The Pharmacist’s Guide to Conquering Student Loans,” which talks about A-Z student loan repayment for pharmacists. And you can get a copy of that book at PharmDloans.com, and if you use the coupon code “YFP,” that will get you 15% off. So this is the time period to take advantage of this administrative forbearance, as long as it lasts, understand and evaluate all your options, and be ready to go such that when this time period is done, you’re ready to hit the ground running with an intentional student loan repayment plan. Now, for those that don’t have student loans or paid them off, happy dance, right? We’re excited that we’re at this point in time, but perhaps this is also an opportunity to pay it forward and help those that are in this situation — it can be very overwhelming — through providing your input, your experience, maybe getting them a copy of a book like the “Pharmacist’s Guide to Conquering Student Loans,” or pointing them in the direction of some resources that could be helpful to them, things that you’ve learned through your journey, mentoring other folks, but an opportunity to pay it forward to those that are dealing with student loans and typically six figures or more of student loans front and center as they’re trying to attack this and come up with a plan in 2021. So that’s No. 5, Revisit Your Student Loan Game Plan.

No. 6 is Take Your Tax Strategy to the Next Level. Now, Episode 184, just last week, we talked about how to optimize your tax strategy. I brought on YFP Director of Tax and our CFO Paul Eikenberg, who’s our tax professional at YFP. And we talked about the difference between tax planning and preparation, a very important difference. We talked about tax planning mistakes that he sees, we talked about strategies that pharmacists should consider employing to optimize their tax situation. We talked about strategies around legal tax avoidance, tax deferment, and then opportunities to take advantage of those accounts and strategies where you can have tax-free gains. And we broke down each one of these strategies and ones to consider, and so go back and listen to Episode 184 if you didn’t catch that over the holidays. And this is the chance — if you have been someone that has perhaps had your tax filing on automatic and haven’t really thought about understanding all of the different options being a little bit more strategic with OK, now that we’ve completed the filing, what should we be thinking about for the next year in terms of more of a strategic tax plan? Perhaps this is the year where you look at bringing somebody into your financial plan that can really help you be more intentional with your tax strategy. So Paul, as I mentioned, leads our tax planning and preparation services for clients of YFP Planning. And this year, we’re excited to make that service available to 50 more households. And so you can learn more about the tax planning and preparation services that we’re offering and secure your spot by visiting YourFinancialPharmacist.com/filemytaxes. Again, don’t wait. We’re capping this opportunity at 50 pharmacist households. So first come, first served. Again, that’s YourFinancialPharmacist.com/filemytaxes.

No. 7, Button Up the Insurance Part of Your Financial Plan. This is the defensive part of the financial plan. Now, there’s lots of insurance to think about, right? Health, auto, home, renters — but here, I’m really specifically talking about life, disability and professional liability. And this is a part of the plan that I think often gets overlooked because it can be overwhelming to understand what one does or does not need. It can be perhaps not necessarily very exciting, right, to spend money on things that may or may not happen when you look at other priorities such as paying off student loans or investing or saving for the future. So my encouragement is learn first, shop second, and buy last. So first, determine what you do need, what you don’t need. So what does your employer offer? What do they not offer? Where are there gaps? What types of coverage do you need based on your personal situation. We talk about this at length on Episode 044. We talked about how to determine life insurance needs, Episode 045. How to determine disability insurance needs in Episode 155, why you need liability insurance and there of course, talking about professional liability. So learn first, spend time, dig in, understand life, disability, professional liability, understand the nuances of those policies. Shop second. Find an independent broker, and we’ve got some resources on the YFP site that can help you shop the market of what you do and do not need after you evaluate what you do or do not have from your employer, what other coverage do you need, what gaps exist? And then finally, buy last once you’re confident in what you need and the options that are out there.

No. 8, Evaluate Where Real Estate May or May Not Fit into Your Financial Plan and fit into your long-term financial goals. Now, I’ve said this before that as we focused on more real estate on this show in 2020, we’ll be doing much of that in 2021 as well, I’m not suggesting that real estate is for everyone. But I do have a sense that for many pharmacists, evaluating real estate investing — and there’s a lot of different ways to get there — is something that folks are interested in, encouraged in for a variety of reasons, and maybe have been on the fence about should I look at doing real estate investing? Is this a part of the financial plan that makes sense based on a lot of different factors? So looking at the risks, the rewards, what’s the goal? What’s the point? Why do I want to invest in real estate? What’s the point of perhaps generating additional cash flow each month? How might you get involved? Or how involved do you want to be or not involved? Do you want this to be more passive? Do you want it to be more active? Do you have opportunities in your area? Would it be outside of your area? Are there mentors or resources in your community that can help you? And so we have — as I mentioned — featured several stories in 2020, a few that come to mind, Episode 173, Ryan Shaw, all these pharmacists, Ryan Shaw talked about the systems that he has in place for the investing that he does. Episode 178, Nate Hedrick, our real estate expert, talked about his experience flipping a home up in Michigan. Episode 182, Young Park talked about his experience with long-distance real estate investing, lives in Hawaii, invests primarily in Kansas City, and how he has developed systems and how he has built the beginnings of his real estate portfolio. So I recommend you check out those episodes and really determining what your plan is in 2021 if you feel like real estate investing is a good fit. What’s the plan for 2021? Is it learning more? Is it making a move on a property? Is it finding a mentor? Is it more than one of those? So make sure to tune in here, more to come in 2021. We’re going to have more episodes, more content focused on real estate investing. We’re going to be launching a real estate regular show, regular podcast on this YFP podcast. We’ll have more information coming about that throughout the month of January and February. And we’re going to continue to build out more resources for those that are looking to learn more as well as engage and connect with other pharmacist real estate investors. Now, of course another great place to learn — as I’m sure many of you have already heard of when it comes to real estate — Bigger Pockets has great content, great resources, they’ve got forums, the podcast, the blog. And one of my favorite books for those looking to get started, “The ABCs of Real Estate Investing” they published as a book. So lots of places to go here. No. 8, Evaluate Where Real Estate May or May Not Fit into Your Financial Plan and Goals and determine where you’re going to take action as it relates to this goal.

No. 9 is Update Your Legacy Folder. Now, we talked about this. It’s been awhile, but way back when, early on in the show, we talked about this concept of a legacy folder. And I think as we turn the page on 2020, heading into 2021, this is a good time to make sure that you’re updating your systems and your files and you’re making sure that what you have in place is most up-to-date and relevant information. So I first heard of the idea of a legacy folder when taking Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University through a local church several years ago. And I remember walking away thinking, wow, so obvious yet so important and at the time was something that I hadn’t yet implemented for our own family and our own financial plan. And essentially, the idea of a legacy folder, whether it’s physical, electronic, or both, is a place where you have all of your financial-related documents so in the event of an emergency, others would be able to quickly assess your financial situation and get access to all of the documents and accounts that pertain to your finances. So examples of items here could include things like insurance policies, wills and power of attorney, account information for savings or debt or could be mortgages, could be credit cards, could be student loans, various savings accounts you have, whether that’s brokerage accounts, retirement accounts and so on. Essentially, a one-stop shop for all of your financial documents and making sure those that should have access or could have access or would need to have access know where that information is and how they can get ahold of it in the event of an emergency happening. Of course, you’ve got to think about security and how you secure that information, whether that’s physical, electronic, or both. So that’s No. 9, Updating Your Legacy Folder.

No. 10 is Setting Your Learning Plan when it comes to personal finance for 2021. Now, at YFP, one of our core values for our team is encourage growth and development. And we believe that for ourselves, for our team, and for you, the YFP community, this concept of constantly growing, learning and developing needs to be at the front and center of one’s financial plan, regardless of where you are at on this journey. Right? There’s always something to learn on this topic. So podcasts, lots that are out there, of course, this one. We hope you’ll tune in. I mentioned the Bigger Pockets podcast, there’s other personal finance podcasts and some resources. When it comes to books, of course there’s the classics: “Rich Dad Poor Dad,” “Millionaire Next Door,” other books that come to mind as some of my favorite personal finance books: “The Automatic Millionaire” by David Bach, “Tax-Free Wealth” by Tom Wheelwright, “The Truth About Money” by Ric Edelman, “The Compound Effect” by Darren Hardy, “The Behavioral Investor” by Daniel Crosby, and one that I recently read that’s not as well known, “Happy Money: The science of happier spending,” written by Elizabeth Dunn and Michael Norton is a great resource, not on the x’s and o’s of the financial plan but more on when it comes to how we use our money, what are some of the things where when we think about our why and our purpose and driving value and happiness, how can money be used as a tool? And what does the science really have to say in that area? So set your plan, look at the options. There’s many out there. I’m sure the YFP Facebook group would have other suggestions as well. And set your learning plan for the year and be intentional about making that a priority in 2021.

No. 11, as I mentioned, I had a bonus here. No. 11 is Find a Community and Get a Coach for both accountability and guidance. Now, when it comes to the community aspect, I hope if you’re not already, you’ll be a part of the YFP Facebook group. I think this is a great community that is really encouraging in some regard, mentoring, helping one another on their path towards achieving financial freedom. I think we’re now a community of about 8,000 strong pharmacy professionals all across the country, so hope you’ll join us. And in terms of getting a coach, we really believe one-on-one comprehensive financial planning is what leads to the greatest accountability and the customization of all of these topics that we’re talking about to one’s individual situations. And so I think this derives the greatest results for the obvious reasons of it’s one-on-one, it’s intentional, it’s consistent, it has accountability, it’s specific to your goals and your plan. But we recognize that it may not be for everyone for a variety of reasons. But if you’re not yet already aware or participating in our comprehensive financial planning one-on-one services, you can schedule a discovery call today, no obligations, see if it’s a good fit for you, a good fit for us. And you can do that by going to YFPPlanning.com, click on “Schedule a Discovery Call,” and we’ll get you on the calendar here in the next month. We also talked about in Episode 181, for those of you that are thinking about is a financial planner a good fit, we talked about many of the topics of financial planning of what we do at YFP but also what are important to look at in general? Fee-only, fiduciary, comprehensive, making sure you’re finding the good fit of financial planning services that are specific to your individual needs. And that was Episode 181.

So there you have it, 10 financial moves to make for 2021 or to consider, plus one in terms of the bonus of finding a community and a coach for accountability and guidance. And speaking of that community, as I mentioned in the introduction, we’ve got an awesome giveaway to go along with this episode to kick off the new year. I mentioned how important it was for my own financial plan and journey to find good resources. And we’re excited to be sharing those with the YFP community. And so we’re going to be doing that through a giveaway in this early part of January where we’re giving two winners in the YFP Facebook group a one-year YNAB subscription, a pair of Apple Airpods, and a copy of “Your Best Year Ever” by Michael Hyatt. So two individuals will win each of those three things. And to enter, you have to be a part of the YFP Facebook group and then comment with your 2021 financial goal on the giveaway post at the top of the group.

So let’s have a great 2021. Let’s approach this year with intention, with purpose. I hope you’ll share your goals, your success, your wins, your questions, with the community in the YFP Facebook group. And as always, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, please do us a favor and leave a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show each and every week. Have a great rest of your day, and here’s to an awesome 2021.

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YFP 184: How to Optimize Your 2021 Tax Strategy

Posted on by yfpadmin

How to Optimize Your 2021 Tax Strategy

Paul Eikenberg, YFP Director of Tax and CFO, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about how to optimize your tax situation in 2021. Paul discusses the difference between tax planning and preparation, common tax planning mistakes he sees pharmacists making, and strategies pharmacists should consider employing to optimize their tax situation.

About Today’s Guest

Paul has supported hundreds of pharmacists in both tax filing and tax planning to maximize their deductions and avoid overpaying. In addition to being an Enrolled Agent (EA) and YFP’s Director of Tax Services, Paul Eikenberg brings skills from his extensive business experience to YFP. Paul has owned franchises, been a VP of Franchise Operations, and a Credit Union Board Chair.

Summary

On this week’s episode, Paul Eikenberg, YFP Director of Tax and CFO, breaks down how to optimize your tax situation in 2021. Although we’re only ending 2020, planning for your future tax situation is a large part of your financial plan as it can have major financial implications down the road.

Paul explains that tax preparation is merely a historical look at what happened last year. On the other hand, tax planning is oriented in the future. The aim with tax planning is to match your tax plan to your goals and financial plan. This can help you make investment and other financial decisions while optimizing your earnings.

Paul shares three tax strategies that you can use to optimize your tax situation in 2021: legal tax avoidance, deferment, and pay now with tax free gains. He breaks down how each of the strategies work and what type of financial moves fall into these approaches.

YFP Planning comprehensive financial planning clients have tax preparation and tax planning as part of our services. This year YFP is expanding our tax services to 50 additional pharmacist households. Learn more about these services and how you can file your taxes with YFP here.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Paul, it’s great to have you on the show. It’s been a long time, way back on Episode 070, and so for our listeners who aren’t familiar with who you are and the work that you have done and are doing with YFP, share a little bit about your background and tell us about that work that you are doing.

Paul Eikenberg: Well thanks for having me, Tim. And you know, it’s an exciting time at YFP. I joined three years ago. And I’m the oldest member of the YFP team, so my background’s a little more varied than everybody else. But I grew up in a small business, and I have started a rental car business as a franchisee, joined the franchise company and worked a few years as the Vice President of Franchise Operations there. So I was involved in a lot of startups with franchisees in one role or another. And career after that was as a franchisee in the computer, hardware and repair business. And did that for 15 years. After I sold that business, I worked as a Vice President of a management service company with a lot of responsibilities for budgeting for our largest clients and their IT planning and budgeting role. And in between all that, since I had a good accounting background, I did taxes frequently in between my different careers. I spent time working with Jackson Hewitt, H&R Block, and when my role a few years ago was downsized, I called my financial planner, Tim Baker, to talk about what should I do now?

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Paul Eikenberg: And you know, when we talked about financial freedom, I had the financial freedom to kind of choose what I was going to do next. And then one conversation with Tim, I said, “I think I might just do taxes, work real hard part of the year, and not so hard the rest of the year.” And Tim said, “Funny you should say that. I really want to add tax services to my — you know, to the offering.”

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Paul Eikenberg: “That I have as a financial planner.” And from there, I went and took the test for the EA, which is Enrolled Agent, and worked part-time with a CPA firm and part-time with Tim Baker up ‘til last year, when our client roll was large enough that I could just start working for YFP. And I’ve enjoyed it immensely.

Tim Ulbrich: And we are super grateful — I know I speak on behalf of the team — super grateful to have you, your expertise. You’ve provided valuable input to the business. I mean that sincerely. It’s been really a pleasure and a blessing to have you as a part of the team. And as you were retelling that story, Paul, which I’ve heard you say before, the part about working hard during the tax season and then not so much the rest of the year, I think we’ve busted that up a little bit as we needed to lean on you in so many areas for the business, and we’re appreciative of that. And I think some of our listeners may know that we do tax, as you mentioned, as a part of our financial planning for clients because we so firmly believe that we need to wed the financial plan with the tax plan for a variety of reasons, which we’ll talk about here today. But folks may not know that even for those that are not comprehensive planning clients that we do offer tax services. And so we’re excited to give the community a little bit of an inside look into why tax is such an important part of the financial plan, why it’s worth investing in, and how they might consider optimizing their 2021 strategy. And to that point, that’s what we’re talking about here today. We’re talking about considerations to optimize your 2021 tax situation. Now, I know the listeners are thinking, wait a minute, 2021? I haven’t even filed my 2020 taxes yet. And I get it, but we’re here to really tell you and reinforce that tax planning is a big part of your financial plan. And as with any aspect of the financial plan, you know us by now, we like to be intentional — as intentional as we possibly can with it. So that’s what we’re digging into this episode at the end of the year so that you can jump into 2021 with an understanding of options and strategies with confidence that can help you be more intentional with tax planning and hopefully allow you, legally, to bring home as much of your income as possible. And so Paul, kick us off by explaining the difference between tax preparation and tax planning and why both are so important.

Paul Eikenberg: Tax preparation is really the historical look at what happened last year. So it’s required, you have to do it. But it’s really somewhere between January and April, you collect all of the information on what happened last year and report it to the IRS. There’s a couple of adjustments you can make during that period of time, but pretty much it’s a look back at things that have been done and just reporting and paying your taxes. Where I get more excited and I think we’re doing some of the best work at YFP is in the planning portion of it. And that’s where you can have more impact on your financial plan and get into that financial freedom. It’s more future-oriented. And what I enjoy about the work we’re doing with the comprehensive clients is that we’re able to match their tax plan to their overall goals and make decisions based on where you are and where you’re going. So the more complicated the filings, you know, the more helpful it is. And the other thing that’s a huge impact is for people on the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program, how you do your taxes can make a big difference and have a long-term impact. And just that coordination between a financial plan and your tax strategy makes a big difference.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. So the preparation, I think our listeners are very well familiar with that. They either do it every year, perhaps they do it themselves, maybe they do it with one of the Big Box entities that you mentioned at the beginning of the show, maybe they hire a CPA. So I think we understand, we get that. We’re looking backwards. But I think you articulated so well the planning, the proactive, the strategy, the making sure we’re being intentional, looking ahead is so important. And we’re going to give some good examples of that today throughout the show. Now, we could do a whole episode I’m sure, Paul, of mistakes that you commonly see people making regarding tax planning. But we’ve got other things we want to get to as well, so hit the high points for us. What are some of the most common mistakes that you see people making regarding tax planning that our listeners can be on the lookout for?

Paul Eikenberg: Not taking advantage of employer benefit programs. We’ll see people with dependent care benefits that are available to them and not taking advantage of them. Not coordinating between spouses. If you’re not maxing out your retirement programs, is there a greater benefit of contributions to one spouse or the other? Same with HSAs are one of the best tax tools out there. People not taking advantage of the HSAs. Missing a tax credit because they went over the phase out that if they planned a little different, they wouldn’t have gone over the phase out. And one of the common things we see is not so much changing the taxes but not having your W4s correct with the employer and having a surprise balance due in April when you file taxes. So those are a few of the things. And then you see some people making decisions that are based on tax ramifications rather than making financial decisions and understanding what the tax ramifications are. So you do see some errors there with people.

Tim Ulbrich: Great point. And we know there’s a lot at stake here. You know, one of the statistics I like to give pharmacists, especially young pharmacists, as they’re just making that transition into their career but is really good for all of us to think is there’s a lot at stake here. And the statistic I give is that pharmacists on average, using the Bureau of Labor statistics data on salary, using a normal trajectory of career in terms of a timeline of work, on average are going to make $9 million over their career. Obviously, we are assuming for income increases and things that are happening. And $6 million of that, roughly speaking, will actually flow through their bank account. And so the difference there, the delta of $3 million, is in part what we’re talking about here related to tax. And so there’s a lot at stake and a lot that we have to consider. And I would argue the earlier we get this right and the earlier that we invest in the right resources to make sure that we have it right, we’re making decisions appropriately, obviously we’re going to benefit from that throughout our career. So Paul, let’s break down for a moment a couple key terms that I sense will come up throughout our discussion today. And again, we’re not intending for this episode to be all comprehensive on tax, but a couple that I know will come up in the discussion are marginal tax rate and AGI, or Adjusted Gross Income. So define those terms for us.

Paul Eikenberg: Marginal tax rate is to me one of the key numbers people should understand. And your marginal tax rate is the tax you pay on the last hour you earned and your next hour. And there’s a lot of misconceptions that when you jump a tax rate that it goes back to the first hour. It’s a graduated tax system, so when you jump a tax rate, you’re only paying that tax on the dollars above that amount.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Paul Eikenberg: So marginal tax rate, federal rates, we’ll typically see pharmacists in the 24%, 22% and sometimes 32% tax rates. And that’s federal tax. And states can be from 0% to 12% in marginal tax rates. So you know, we will have pharmacists typically with that combined and if you take a local tax rate and add it in there if you’re in a city with a local tax, we’ll see typically marginal tax rates from 30-40%.

Tim Ulbrich: Ouch.

Paul Eikenberg: When you add them all together.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Paul Eikenberg: Yeah. Why that’s important to know is because when you start making decisions on a Roth versus a traditional retirement, max in your retirement versus putting the money somewhere else, making a charitable contribution, if you understand your marginal tax rate, you know the general tax ramifications of if I make $1,000 contribution this year, and I’m itemizing, and I’m in a 35% marginal rate, I’m going to save $350 in taxes. If I put $1,000 more in an HSA than I was planning, I’m going to save $350 —

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Paul Eikenberg: In taxes. So it’s kind of a key number in decision-making and understanding what the general tax ramifications are for you. Other key number for a lot of our clients is Adjusted Gross Income. You know, we mentioned Public Service Loan Forgiveness program before. Your student loan payments are based on an Adjusted Gross Income. A lot of the phase-outs, do you qualify for a lifetime learning credit? Can you deduct student loan debt? That AGI is the number you use for the qualifier for a lot of different tax programs. And it’s Adjusted Gross Income. So when you calculate Adjusted Gross Income, it is your wages, net rental income, net business income, dividends, interest, all that kind of gross income goes in and then you’re able to reduce it by what we call “above-the-line deductions.” That’s going to be your HSA, your FSA, your dependent childcare, student loan deductions that are allowed. That reduces the kind of gross wage, gross income, to an Adjusted Gross Income. And that AGI is a key number.

Tim Ulbrich: And let’s hold that thought. We’re going to come back here in just a moment as we talk about tax strategies and even further connect what Paul just said there. So let’s dig into those tax strategies. And we’re going to look at a few different areas, tax avoidance, tax deferment, paying now, and a hybrid approach. And so let’s start with tax avoidance — and I hope it goes without saying that here, we’re talking about tax avoidance within a framework, of course, of following the law. So nothing we’re suggesting is avoiding something that we shouldn’t be avoiding. So Paul, when it comes to avoidance, what are we referring to here? And what is included? What types of financial moves would fall under this strategy? And I know you’ve alluded to a couple of them already with the HSA, FSA and some other things.

Paul Eikenberg: Let’s talk about the HSA a little bit more because that to me is the No. 1 tax tool. If you’re on a health insurance program that allows an HSA, it’s got the most tax benefits too. For a family this year, the limit is $7,100 that you can put into an HSA. That money, if you’re having it deducted from your paycheck, it goes in before not only income tax but before FICA tax. So it goes in pre-Medicare, pre-social security tax. It carries over from year-to-year so you can build the fund there, you can invest it, and that money will grow tax-free. And it is the only tool that goes in tax-free, grows tax-free, and when you spend it on medical expenses, it comes out, it’s never taxed. So it has multiple tax benefits and is really the best tool available to you to get the most out of your money.

Tim Ulbrich: And I would point, Paul, our listeners — before we go onto others in the avoidance category — we feel so strongly about the HSA, we’ve covered it a couple times. We’ve got a great post by Tim Church on the blog. Episode 165, we talked about the power of the Health Savings Account, broke down further what Paul is talking about and spent an entire episode on that. So if you’re wondering more about an HSA and have one, aren’t sure, want to evaluate where it may fit in your financial plan, I’d recommend our listeners check out those resources, which we’ll link into the show notes. So what else beyond the HSA would fall into this category of avoidance, or at least common ones?

Paul Eikenberg: One of the more frequent things you hear is treasury bonds. The interest on those grows tax-free. Municipal bonds, you know, there will be some tax advantages to those. So they’re one tool. Another tool that people sometimes miss is the difference in taxation on long-term capital gains, short-term capital gains. If you’re making money on stock investment, property investment, you’re taxed at a lower rate for a long-term gain — and the definition of long term is 1 year plus debt. You’ll see some people sell a stock, short-term gain, pay ordinary at your marginal tax rate whereas on a long-term gain, most people that we work with are in a 15% tax rate. So there can be a 17% in that by timing how long you keep it. Another area we see people not take advantage of is the dependent care — and again, that’s a deduction if it’s a payroll deduction that comes out pre-social security and pre-Medicare. Other item that we’re seeing some activity on is the home sale exclusion. And this is designed so that if you move into your home for more than two years, you make a gain on it, the gain on that sale is excluded up to $250,000 for a single person, $500,000 for a married couple. If you’re somebody that likes fixing up a home, there’s some great tax benefits that buying a fixer-upper, working on it, moving in it for two years, and then selling it and moving to the next one.

Tim Ulbrich: Especially if somebody’s in a market where, to your point, a fixer-upper may want to buy something knowing the appreciation will be good. It’s an interesting different take on kind of real estate investing than we may think of as buying other properties but rather with this home sale exclusion. And if I understand you correctly, if somebody were married and they bought a home for $400,000 between the two of them, each having $250,000, when they go to sell it, as long as it’s below $900,000 when they sell it, which would be an incredible gain in value and appreciation on that home, that that gain and that growth is tax-free.

Paul Eikenberg: Correct. And you know, while it sounds like in most areas of the country an incredible gain, San Francisco, Seattle, some of the northeast, it’s not as unusual as some of the other parts of the country.

Tim Ulbrich: That makes sense. And I think that one will be of great interest to our listeners. The other one, Paul, which you mentioned and I just wanted you to expand on a little bit more was the childcare bills from an FSA, the 129 Plan. Tell us a little bit more as I suspect that’s something that folks are already taking advantage of or could be taking advantage of going into the new year.

Paul Eikenberg: We see a lot of people not taking advantage of it. There are a lot of people that do, but you know, that dependent childcare employer plan typically lets you have $5,000 deducted from your paychecks and then you can get reimbursed for childcare expenses. And there is a credit available if you don’t take advantage of it. And for most people, it’s 20% of the childcare expenses, up to $3,000 for one child, up to $6,000 for more than one child.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Paul Eikenberg: But what the FSA does for you is first, it makes the deduction pre-social security, pre-Medicare. The other thing it does is if you have one child, it’s a $5,000, not a $3,000 plan.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Paul Eikenberg: If you’re in the 32% bracket, it’s a much better benefit than if you are taking a 20% bracket. So we talk avoidance, you know, it avoids taxes forever is what we’re kind of talking about avoidance here. I’ll come back to one of my favorite quotes from a tax court judge is that there are two systems of taxation in the United States. One for the informed and one for the uninformed, and both are in league.

Tim Ulbrich: And I’m glad you mentioned that. One of the books I’ve referenced on the podcast before, which I would reference again to our listeners — we’ll link in the show notes — is “Tax-Free Wealth” is one of those resources that really just opened up my eyes to exactly what you just said there and how important it is to be informed of the options. And we’re talking, again, in this first category of avoidance, we’ve already covered a lot. We’re just scratching the surface, but we’ve talked about an HSA, long-term capital gains, we talked about childcare bills and FSA, we talked about home sale exclusion. So again, I think just highlighting the importance of understanding all of the options that are available to you and then the power of working with somebody such as yourself to really customize this and apply it alongside of the financial plan, of course with our great team over at YFP Planning. So that’s No. 1, avoidance. No. 2, Paul, is this tax strategy of defer. So tell us what you mean by this and some common financial moves that fall under the defer category.

Paul Eikenberg: The most common thing when we talk about deferring is 401k’s, traditional IRAs, if you’ve got self employment income, but they’re more of the traditional retirement buckets where you’re putting money in in the current tax year, you’re deducting it from your income, and you’re deferring taxes on that money and the growth of that money, the investments with that money, until you retire and start taking on that. You know, it’s one retirement strategy. And where that makes a lot of sense is when — or has extra benefit to you — is when lowering your Adjusted Gross Income helps you overall in addition to that retirement. There are phase-outs that you can manage sometimes by using the traditional retirement programs. And one of the best examples is if we go to the student loans that are in the forgiveness programs. Lowering that AGI has a tax benefit, but it also is, you know, helping manage what your loan payments are going back and it helps maximize the value of that forgiveness program.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and we spent — by we, I mean our planning team and working with you — spend a lot of time on this topic. And one of the things we are not shy about tooting our own horn on is that it’s not very common that financial planning teams and tax professionals will have a good understanding of student loans. And that’s our bread and butter.

Paul Eikenberg: One of the really interesting things there is from typical tax preparation and planning, you almost never want to file married filing separately. But in the situation of student loans, it’s not unusual where that’s what makes the most sense, even though it’s not a good decision strictly tax-wise, you know, when you do the comparison. It’s an obviously smart move overall financially.

Tim Ulbrich: And that’s a great example, Paul, of making sure you find somebody — especially for those that are facing significant student loan debt and/or strategies which have tax implications, like we’ve talked about here with forgiveness. But that’s not a common tax strategy. But when you layer on the implications with the student loans, you can see where someone may get in trouble if they’re working with somebody that may not be as familiar with student loans certainly. So while you’re talking here about traditional pre-tax buckets, 401k, 403b, traditional IRAs, since we’re heading to 2021, remind us of what to expect on the retirement contribution limits for these types of accounts.

Paul Eikenberg: Typically, 401k’s, 403b’s, right now, the limit is $19,500. If you’re over 50 years old, you have a catchup of $6,500. Those are where you max out on most of the employer programs. IRAs, $6,000, you know, most pharmacists are not going to qualify if they are under a retirement program. There are some strategies for doing back door IRAs and increasing the amounts you can contribute there.

Tim Ulbrich: And we’ll link in the show notes, we have two great resources on that. One of the most common questions we get is on the back door Roth IRAs for the exact reason that Paul mentioned. So we have a post, “Why Most Pharmacists Should Do a Back Door Roth IRA,” and then we also covered it on Episode 096 of the show, How to Do a Back Door Roth IRA. So we’d recommend looking at those resources and of course reaching out to our planning team for additional help. So we talked, Paul, about avoidance. The goal is legally not to pay taxes. We talked about HSA, finding ways to maximize in terms of the long-term capital gain rates and the savings that would come there, childcare bills in an FSA, home sale exclusions. Then we just talked about deferment with the most common being around lowering your Adjusted Gross Income from traditional pre-tax buckets. We talked about the implications there as it relates to student loans. Again, just scratching the surface. So the third area that I want to discuss for a few moments is that you pay them now, you pay the taxes now, but the gains are tax-free. So give us some common examples of things that folks want to be thinking about here.

Paul Eikenberg: Biggest thing is the Roth 401k, Roth IRAs. The strategy there is that you’re putting money in that you’re paying tax on this year but all of the growth of the investments on that are not taxed when you take it out in retirement.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Paul Eikenberg: It is your income. You’ve got that income, and if you’re not reporting, it’s not taxable in your retirement. And that helps you in some ways in retirement that’s not reflected in your AGI and not reflected in your taxable income. So there’s capital gains that that can affect in your retirement. There’s dividends that won’t be taxable to the same extent if a lot of your retirement income is not reflected in your AGI, your taxable income. The other advantage now is suppose you’re maxing out at $19,500 on your traditional retirement and you don’t have another tool to put more money in. $19,500 in a Roth IRA, the limit’s the same, but the value of it is significantly more in a Roth. So it really gives you an opportunity to increase — even though the limit is the same, you’re really putting more money in your retirement program in a Roth than a traditional IRA.

Tim Ulbrich: That makes sense. And one of the reasons — you know, we talked about the HSA already — one of the reasons we always say is the HSA, the Roth is kind of low-hanging fruit, and I think you summarized that well. The other thing that would fall in here, Paul, would also be a 529, right? I kind of think of a 529 almost like a Roth for college in that it’s going in with after-tax dollars, growing tax-free, and then you can withdraw it as long as it’s being used for the qualified educational expenses. So it has some more strings attached to it because of the nature of what it’s being used for, but would you put that here in this bucket as well?

Paul Eikenberg: Yes. And you know, 529s vary from state to state. In some states, the state that allows you to deduct it from your income for state tax purposes and has a higher limit, it’s more valuable than, say, if you live in Florida and there’s no state tax. So that one is definitely a good tool and belongs here, but it varies a little more state-to-state and individual situations.

Tim Ulbrich: Great point. And so we’ve talked about avoidance strategies, deferment strategies, we’ve talked about a third strategy, which is just pay tax now, gains are tax-free. And so Paul, I wanted to transition here for a moment. One of the things you talk about, which I love, is this concept of a tax toolbox and you know, really is inclusive of things that folks should be considering that are likely to be most relevant to their financial situation and to their financial plan as it relates to tax strategies and optimization. And we’ve covered a bunch of these already. HSAs, FSA health dependent care, we’ve talked about Roths, we’ve talked about IRAs extensively. What else would you say from your work with our clients at YFP Planning that you would see as major considerations in the tax toolbox?

Paul Eikenberg: One of the things that is looking like it’s going to be more common and really has only come into effect since the 2018 tax cuts and job act increased the standard deduction is bunching itemized expenses. A lot of people who used to itemize aren’t able to itemize anymore. The only deductions we see are charitable contributions, interest, and estate taxes. Estate taxes are now limited to $10,000 on a return. So we’re seeing people start bunching charitable contributions into one year and alternating standard deduction, itemized deduction, standard deduction, itemized deduction as they’re going on. And when you look at it, you know, over a two-year period, you’re able to get a greater tax benefit if you are putting all your charitable contributions in one of those two years.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Paul Eikenberg: You have some options with property tax, but really, it’s charitable contributions that make the most difference here. And there’s something called a donor-advised fund where you can make a contribution, put it in a fund that is invested and grows and it’s not taxed. The fund is actually the charity. But a donor-advised fund, you’re able to make recommendations on where that money goes, basically you’re controlling where the donations go. So on December 31, I can put money into that donor-advised fund, and it counts for that year along with any contributions I made. So it’s a great way of still making the donations but grouping them in one year.

Tim Ulbrich: Got it. OK. The other thing too that comes to mind, Paul, is we know many of our community is engaging with or thinking about a side hustle of some sorts that may evolve further even beyond that. We of course feature many side hustle stories on this show. I know many of our clients would fall into this category as well. Not intending this for them to be advice that they’re going to run with, but just general considerations for folks that find themselves in this category of side hustling.

Paul Eikenberg: Side hustles are a great way of generating extra money and getting some of the benefits from a tax side. So to be deductible, an expense for a side business needs to be considered ordinary, necessary and not extravagant. Ordinary means — for a tax definition that other people doing the same type of work are going to have similar expenses to this. Necessary has a fairly broad definition of does it help you generate more business, do that business better, or qualify you, you know, continuing education? Not many side businesses can be done without internet or cell phones today. Conference travel, things to generate new business. There are a lot of expenses there to acknowledge to get supplies, to — there’s times where meals to generate more business or to produce business make sense. So there are a lot of things that are deductible expenses from that side income that have a professional/personal benefit to the business owner. You know, I have a book of a couple hundred pages of ordinary business expenses.

Tim Ulbrich: And I firmly believe — I know I’ve heard Tim Baker say this a ton of times — that for those that are in a side hustle, have their own business, thinking about it, having your own personal financial plan and house in order is so incredibly beneficial to not only what the business will become but also to your sanity and to your peace of mind. And I can say that firmly from personal experience. And so I would encourage you, those that fall into that bucket, that’s an area we’re spending a lot of time with our clients right now. Head on over to YFPPlanning.com, you can schedule a discovery call, see if our services would be a fit for you. And I think making sure you’ve got a strong financial foundation in place is so important to the success of that side hustle or business. Paul, as we wrap up here, you know, I think we have briefly, succinctly, yet also covered a lot in terms of considerations. I know for many folks, it can feel overwhelming. I mentioned at the very beginning that we’re excited this year to be expanding our tax service and offering it — you’ve been leading — for our comprehensive financial planning clients that are a part of our comprehensive financial planning services to those that maybe want to engage with us on that part of their tax plan to see if it would be a good fit for them going forward. So briefly, what can our community members expect if they sign up for YFP to be working on their taxes for the year? What should they expect in working with you and your team?

Paul Eikenberg: We’re offering outside our comprehensive clients, the first step is preparing our 2020 return. We work remotely. We were built to be paperless. So it is a unique thing and business. We basically — the engagement, there’s an engagement letter that goes out, usually in January, to our clients. They sign the engagement letter and you get a secure link where you can upload your tax paperwork. We’ll take a look at your previous year return, and we take that work, go through it, look for any missing pieces of information. You’ll have a questionnaire to answer, all electronically. And we put together a return. If we need more information, we contact you to gather that. Once we have the return, we schedule a Zoom appointment and review the return, have it signed through DocuSign and file electronically. During that process, if there was anything that kind of obvious you were overlooking, should be thinking about, we’ll point it out there. And then with the clients we’ll be doing the returns for — you’ll have an option to engage for us a mid-year tax projection where we can take a look and see if you’re withholding’s on target and if there’s any tax tools you’re not taking advantage and talk about that with them.

Tim Ulbrich: As we wrap up this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, I’d like to remind you about our tax planning and preparation service that we’re going to be offering to 50 pharmacist households in 2021. You can learn more about that service, including what’s offered, what’s included, how much does that service cost, what you should expect by going to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/filemytaxes. This is the chance to apply much of what you heard throughout today’s episode and really be able to apply that personally to your individual situation. What a great way to get 2021 off to a great start. So again, that’s YourFinancialPharmacist.com/filemytaxes. You had a chance to hear from Paul on today’s episode, hopefully you got some insights into his expertise, what he’s able to provide, and certainly has adequate experience working with many clients over at YFP Planning. As always, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, please do us a favor and leave us a rating in Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show each and every week as that will help others find the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast and hopefully benefit from the education and the material that we do each and every week. And of course, I wish everyone a happy and healthy New Year. Looking forward to 2021, and I hope you all continue to join us on this journey as we all strive towards achieving financial freedom. Have a great rest of your day.

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YFP 182: How This New Practitioner is Leveraging a Team to Invest in Long-Distance Real Estate

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How This New Practitioner is Leveraging a Team to Invest in Long-Distance Real Estate

Young Park, new practitioner and real estate investor, joins Tim Ulbrich on this week’s podcast episode, sponsored by APhA, to talk about his portfolio, why he likes real estate investing, how he got started, what has worked, what hasn’t worked, and why and how he invests in Kansas City while living in Hawaii.

About Today’s Guest

Young Park currently serves as an Ambulatory Care Clinical Pharmacy Specialist at the VA Pacific Islands Health Care System in Hawaii. He moved to Hawaii for this specific position after completing a PGY1 residency at the VA Sierra Nevada Health Care System in Reno, NV. He completed his undergraduate study at the University of Georgia, then completed the Doctor of Pharmacy program at Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine (PCOM) in Georgia.

Young started learning about financial independence and investing after making the far move to Hawaii. His big “why” is to help provide financially for his parents and to be able to spend more quality time with his family and loved ones. He’s working towards financial independence through investing in out-of-state cash-flowing rental properties using the BRRRR strategy.

When he’s not working, he serves at his church on the Sound Team, enjoys Hawaii’s beautiful beaches, and learns about personal growth and investing.

Summary

Young Park, a 2017 pharmacy school graduate, stumbled upon real estate investing on YouTube and quickly discovered how powerful of an investment vehicle it can be. Young was originally interested in investing with stocks but decided to move forward with real estate investing because he felt it has the best return on investment and because of the long-term benefits like appreciation, tax benefits, and mortgage pay down.

In less than 2 years, Young has acquired 3 rental properties in Kansas City, Missouri while living in Hawaii. He decided to invest in real estate thousands of miles away for a few reasons. To start, the cost of homes in Hawaii is extremely high and it’s difficult to find a good real estate investment deal. Additionally, he connected and began working with a mentor that invests in the Kansas City market and was able to lean on him for advice while also leveraging the team that was already in place until he could build his own.

Young also digs into how he’s using the BRRRR method on his investment properties, how he’s getting the capital to fund them, how he analyzes a potential deal, how he’s formed a team to support him, the challenges he’s faced along the way, and how real estate investing is supporting his financial why.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Young, welcome to the podcast.

Young Park: Hey, Tim, thanks for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Super excited to have you on. When I learned about your story as a new practitioner, active in real estate investing, getting started, taking that first step, we’re going to talk about your journey, what’s worked, what hasn’t worked, why you’ve been doing what you’re doing, what your plans are going forward, and I think this episode is going to be incredibly valuable to our community that is interested in learning more about real estate investing or perhaps even for those that have started looking to build upon the portfolio and the work that they’ve done so far. So Young, before we jump into your real estate journey, tell us a little bit about your background into pharmacy, how you got into pharmacy, what interested you, where you went to school, and the work that you’ve been doing since graduating in 2017.

Young Park: Alright. Hey, first of all, thank you again for having me here on the show. I am so excited to share my story today. So man, about myself. I don’t know how far I need to go back. But yeah, as a child, I guess in high school, I actually wanted to go into music, like into music engineering and recording and playing in a band and stuff. However, my parents were definitely against it. We’re immigrants, so we moved from South Korea back in ‘98. And you know, my parents moved to the States so that we can have better opportunity for me and my sister and just kind of live that American dream that they were hoping for us. They just heard about pharmacy from their friend, how their sons and daughters went to pharmacy school and they graduated, got a awesome deal with a brand new car and a brand new BMW. So to them, this was the American Dream for us. Eventually, I kind of followed that step. I went to — I finished my undergraduate study at the University of Georgia, and then I went to the Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine in Georgia campus for my pharmacy school. So I think one of my professors, Dr. Brett Rollins, was on the show before.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes, he was.

Young Park: Yeah. So yeah, I went to that school and then after that, I completed my PGY1 at VA Sierra Nevada Healthcare System in Reno, Nevada. And after that, I took this current position that I have with the VA Pacific Island Healthcare System in Hawaii as an ambulatory care pharmacist.

Tim Ulbrich: So Georgia, Nevada, and then Hawaii, right?

Young Park: Traveled quite a bit, yes.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. Well, cool. And so we’re going to talk in a little bit about how do you effectively invest as a real estate investor in Hawaii and why you’ve chosen to go out of area to do your investing in Kansas City, and we’ll talk about why that’s important as we may have many listeners that say, “Hey, I’d love to get started with real estate investing, but you know what, my market isn’t really conducive to that,” high cost of living area, whatever be the reason. Obviously you ran into that, and we’ll talk about how you selected the market that you did and what has been difficult and what has worked with doing some long distance investing. But before we get there, talk to us about for you, why you like real estate investing as an investing vehicle for you going forward and one that you want to build your plan around. Obviously our listeners know there’s lots of different ways to go about investing, traditional accounts, 401k’s, 403b’s, IRAs, obviously they could invest in brokerage accounts, they could start their own businesses, real estate and within real estate, many different ways that you can do this. Why, for you, is real estate an investment vehicle that peaked your interest?

Young Park: OK, so I started getting interested in investing initially into paper assets such as stock, like most people, because that’s the easy one to get into. And I was learning more about that while I was watching YouTube videos, honestly. And I accidentally stumbled upon YouTube videos on real estate investing like Bigger Pockets and some other YouTubers who invest in real estate. And it really got me interested in real estate investing because to me, that had one of the best return on investments, and it’s a hard asset where you can physically obtain the asset. You know, paper asset is great, but it’s almost like a made-up money in the computer space somewhere that determines like this is worth that much. So yeah, that’s why I really got into real estate investing.

Tim Ulbrich: And how do you as an investor — you know, one of the benefits people always talk about with real estate of course is long-term appreciation, tax advantages, you know, that you may not see in more traditional investing — how do those things factor into you wanting to prioritize real estate investing?

Young Park: Yeah, so to me, if I were to compare real estate investing to stock investing, it’s like getting a really high-yield monthly dividend while the tenants are paying down your mortgage. And like exactly what you said, you know, you’re getting the long-term appreciation of the property, you’re getting tax benefits through the appreciation, you’re getting the mortgage paid down, also you’re getting the cash flow — and your cash flow over the long term is going to increase year by year because your mortgage will stay the same and your rent will increase.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and of course — and we’ll talk about your specific properties and how you crunch the numbers. Obviously, we’re talking here under the assumption of you do this in a way that works and is financially viable and of course being able to analyze properties, determine what is a good deal, what is not, is very important as we look at the benefits of real estate investing. Now, before we get into the x’s and o’s and specifics of the property, I like to ask folks such as yourself, what’s the motivation, what’s the purpose, what’s the why? Because we talk all the time on the show about our mission of wanting to help as many pharmacists as we possibly can achieve financial freedom, but I know that that word, “financial freedom,” can mean something different to everyone that’s listening here to this episode. So for you, Young, as you think of that concept of financial freedom and how real estate investing fits into that goal, tell us about what your purpose is, what your why is, what your vision is, and why real estate is really just a piece of being able to achieve that.

Young Park: Great question. So why is extremely important. For most people, they really break it down. The money is never the goal of achieving whatever you want to achieve. It’s actually the time and what you can do with the time that you’re able to obtain through building wealth. So for me, my biggest why is — I will say two things. First of all, I want to provide for my parents financially and also to achieve financial freedom for myself, the time freedom. So my parents moved our family of four to the States with the hopes and dreams of providing a better life and opportunity for me and my sister. Neither of them went to college, and they still don’t speak much English at all. And they did manual labor well into their 60s to provide for us so that we can complete our education. All they knew was to work really, really hard for paychecks and bring food to the table. And because of this, I’m extremely privileged. So because of what they’ve done for us, my main why on investing is for my parents, so that I can help them to retire and live comfortably. And my other why is to be financially independent for myself and for my soon-to-be wife Jamie and our family that we’re going to have so that we can live on our own terms and have options. You know, God forbid, but if something were to happen to my family, I want to be in a position where I can just drop everything and go and be with my family as long as I need to. And building that financial freedom and wealth allows you to have that option.

Tim Ulbrich: And Young, what I heard there, which I love — and I hope our listeners will take heart — is the conviction in which you share that to me tells you’ve No. 1, put thought behind that but No. 2, really likely then provides clarity when you’re making your financial decisions, you know within what context, what frame you’re making those decisions because you’ve thought about, reflected upon, that why. And what I heard from you there was wanting to be able to provide and care for your parents, wanting to get to a point of financial independence such that if you were to wake up tomorrow and for whatever reason, you weren’t able to earn the income that you currently earn, that you would be able to move on without stress and continuing to move on with the rest of your goals and the things that you like doing. And the third thing that I heard was time. And my follow-up question there — because I hear a lot of entrepreneurs talk about time, I hear a lot of real estate investors talk about time, but I very rarely hear people talk about why is that time important. What do they want to do with that time to have that option, to have that freedom, with their time or to gain back more of that time? So for you and your family, more time means what?

Young Park: So more time means spending time with your family and your loved ones. So you can do whatever you would like with whoever you want, you know, going wherever you want to be and how you want to spend your time. You know, for me, growing up, my parents were both working really hard, so they weren’t around home that much. We were still extremely grateful for them, but I want to be a parent that’s there for my children whenever they — let’s say they have a play or they’re playing sports or we get to just enjoy our weekend time or go on vacation together, and I just want to be able to do all those things. Working W2 jobs, it’s great. You get great benefits, and I love my job. But you know, you’re still restricted to certain schedules. You have to meet certain quota, and you know, your schedule can always change — yours and your wife, right? Your spouse, you have to line up our schedules together and all of that’s considering I think that financial freedom and being able to build more time to spend with the loved ones, that’s all I want.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And here, we’re talking about real estate investing being one vehicle in which you can achieve that goal of financial freedom, which of course means being able to do the things that you just said were most important. And so let’s jump into July 2019, you purchase your first property. So two years out from school, I want our listeners to hear, you know, obviously you’re at a point where making that transition post-residency into your first job and you pick up on real estate investing as an opportunity to pursue. So July 2019, tell us about that first property, where it was, what the property was like, what you purchased for it, what you spent to kind of get it ready for tenants, and then ultimately, what it means for you from a rental income standpoint.

Young Park: Sure. July 2019 was when I purchased my first property in Kansas City, Missouri. So I have a whole story about getting into Kansas City market, right, from Hawaii. But just to talk more about the property itself and the investment itself, it was purchased off-market. I actually got it from a wholesaler on Craigslist, believe it or not. Yeah. I didn’t know that was a thing. I was looking into a bunch of wholesalers group on Facebook, you could find that. I spoke with a bunch of realtors to get on their list, and you know, I was also searching on Craigslist to see if there are other owners that wanted to sell their properties or potentially wholesalers. So I found that property on Craigslist from a wholesaler. He actually posted it for — are we allowed to talk about numbers?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, go ahead.

Young Park: OK. So he listed the property at $65,000. And I offered $50,000. Of course, I kind of lowballed him. But he got back to me saying, “Hey, if you have the ability to close within five days, all cash, we can do it at $55,000.” And for a new practitioner coming out of pharmacy school, a year of residency, and you have about a year of actual job under your belt, you don’t have $50,000 in addition to me having a ton of student debt. So getting the cash was a — is a whole other story that I need to talk about. But I was able to pull that off, I had $50 in cash, so I close on the property, and we actually negotiated the route crosses. He actually wanted to close out within five days because he had a family reunion coming up the following week, so he just wanted to be done with it. We actually renegotiated so that we got it for $53,000 instead of $55,000. So I got that property at $53,000. And I actually have my mentor, who that’s how I got into Kansas City market. And I used his contractor, who’s been vetted, and they’ve been working 3, 4, 5 years together. So that contractor knows exactly how to turn a property, how everything should look, and I had my mentor, CJ, to be the project manager so that he’s just kind of managing everything and I’m just giving the rehab costs, I guess, on weekly, biweekly withdrawals so that I’m just continually funding it. And once I get some photos saying oh yeah, these were done, then I send in my next draw.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Young Park: So I did all that, and everything ended up — the rehab costed about $42,000, I want to say.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Young Park: So I’m all in $95,000. So I got that rented out — that was a whole other story about getting it rented out because it was during the holiday season, right around this time actually, and in the Midwest, I’m sure over there, it’s freezing cold, snowing, and no one wants to move during the holiday season.

Tim Ulbrich: Not a great time to find a tenant.

Young Park: It’s not. It’s really not. But you know, right after the new year, so it took a couple months, stayed vacant for a couple months, but I was able to get it rented out in January for $1,000 plus $25 in pet fee.

Tim Ulbrich: So $1,025. So just to rehash these numbers, you purchased it with some negotiation from a wholesaler, $53,000. $42,000 on the rehab, so you’re all in for $95,000. And you’re renting it for just over $1,000. And I’m guessing mortgage, interest, taxes, insurance, probably little less than $800?

Young Park: Correct, correct. But at that time, I didn’t refi yet.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Young Park: So I didn’t have any mortgage payments at that time. So after I was able to rent it out — so the strategy I used is the BRRRR strategy, right? So I bought it, I renovated, I rent it out, so I was able to refinance out and it appraised at $142,000.

Tim Ulbrich: Oh, wow. OK.

Young Park: Yeah. So there was a pretty decent chunk of spread there. So I was actually able to pull all my cash out and then some. So it covered all my purchase, my rehab, and then I think I — after closing costs and everything, I think I pocketed about $5,000.

Tim Ulbrich: $5,000. And for our listeners, we’ve talked about the BRRRR method on the show before, and I’d reference our listeners back to other episodes on real estate investing that we’ve done as well as the Bigger Pockets website, podcast, lots of great resources. They’ve got a book solely on the topic of BRRRR. But you know, the goal here — which Young’s story is a great example of that — is to with the cash investment of the property, be able to pull all of that money out or all that plus some, I guess ideal, or if not all of that, as close as you can, so that you can move on and repeat the process into the future, which you did in a second property, which we’ll talk about here in a moment. But I want to break down this one with a little bit more detail and get into some of the weeds here. When our listeners hear $53,000 purchase, $42,000 in rehab, $95,000 all in, rent a little over $1,000, how did you analyze or evaluate as you were projecting not only purchase price but rehab, potential rent? Talk us through your analysis process and determining what was or was not potentially a good deal.

Young Park: So yes, so you want to start before you purchase it, you want to start with the end in mind. You need to start from the ARV, which means After Repair Value. So you want to know what the property would appraise at at the end of the day. So from that point on, you want to figure out what the rehab costs would be and then that gives you what your purchase price can be. So that would be your offer price. So once I do that, I kind of analyze it. So let’s just say for this property as an example, I actually estimated this property to appraise at about $120,000-130,000. So I actually got really lucky. And $120,000-130,000 is actually — you know, if I really think about it, it’s on the conservative side. I always calculate it in the worst case scenario. And if everything works — if it makes sense for me, even if I were to pay like $10,000, $20,000, $30,000 out of pocket, would I be OK with that? And if I am, then I go with it because that’s the worst case scenario, and you can only get better. Whatever you do better, that’s all extra sauce on it, you know what I mean?

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Young Park: And so yeah. So I do that. So I analyze the property by finding the ARV. And then I estimated the rehab with me and my mentor because he’s done it for so long that he could kind of look at the pictures and see what the estimate would be. And it actually aligned pretty much what we thought it was going to be. So we got that rehab, and we were OK with the purchase price because I was thinking $53,000 purchase, about $40,000 rehab, and appraise it for $120,000. So that’s roughly about 75% of that $120,000 for me to do a full BRRRR.

Tim Ulbrich: Got it.

Young Park: The rehab was a little bit more, but the ARV was a lot higher than I thought. So I was able to actually do a whole run deal on my first deal.

Tim Ulbrich: And that makes sense, Young, if you had projected your numbers at an ARV that was $120,000-125,000 and it came out at $142,000, it makes sense when our listeners hear that you were able to pull out all your cash plus some because of the higher ARV, what ultimately came in at the appraisal when you went to go do the refinance. The other thing I wanted to touch on here, if I had to pick what I think are probably the two most common objections to getting started with real estate investing, they would be that one, I don’t feel like I have the knowledge or experience and two, I don’t have the cash, right, because of whatever. I’ve got student loan debt, I’ve got all of these other priorities of which we talk about on the show all the time, and I can’t necessarily save up $50,000, $70,000, $100,000 to be able to put down on a property. So talk us through how you addressed those two things. You mentioned student loan debt, so I’m sure our listeners are curious, you know, how did you go down this path while you still had student loan debt and how did you reconcile that? But how did you address this knowledge piece? And you’ve talked a little bit about a mentor. And then how did you address the capital and being able to have enough money to get started with investing?

Young Park: First of all, the knowledge portion. So you can get a lot of education just from — and they’re all available online. You can go on YouTube, you can listen to podcasts like the Bigger Pockets. You can read books. I read at least three books from Bigger Pockets and other investment books. However, these to me are just knowledge. And knowledge is important. And people say knowledge is power, but I really think it’s knowledge is just a potential power. It’s only powerful if you are able to take actions and apply it, right? If you just learn, learn and learn, it’s just information. But that doesn’t really get you anywhere. So you have to be able to take that action. And for me, just taking that mentorship was the action step that I needed. Through that mentorship program with CJ, I learned a lot. I learned every week. It was like a weekly phone call. But the biggest thing is that he guided me so that I can actually take the action that if I didn’t take that mentorship and have all these knowledge, who knows if I’d even have a property under my belt right now? Or maybe I bought a turnkey product. But yeah, to me, just learning, keep learning and just taking that step, leap of faith, to get into that deal, get to that first deal, that’s the biggest hurdle.

Tim Ulbrich: And how did you find, Young, that mentor? Because I think a lot of our listeners would say, “Hey, I’d love to have a Yoda in my life on the real estate side.” What steps did you take to say, to move from ‘I’m interested in real estate investing. I’ve read this book, and I’m ready to act and I need to find some people that can help me.’ Talk us through that process.

Young Park: Yes. So I started attending meetups. So after learning, learning, learning and Bigger Pockets, they always talk about, “Oh, come to our meetups.” People are always hosting in different cities. So I actually went on their website, found a meetup there, so I went to one of those meetups, and I learned a lot. And one of the guys that I met there actually pointed out to CJ and Jasmine, telling me that, “Oh, there’s this couple from Hawaii that invests in Kansas City. You should go check them out.” So I went to their meetup, and CJ was actually giving a presentation on investing out-of-state versus locally in Hawaii and how the numbers make so much more sense going out of state. The housing price here is ridiculous. The median housing price here is about $780,000.

Tim Ulbrich: Sheesh.

Young Park: Yeah, and your rents probably won’t even be .5% Rule, if you were to call that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Young Park: So it just made more sense to go out of state. And they were doing exactly what I wanted to do, so I went up to go talk to CJ one-on-one and told him like, “Hey, I’m in this position right now. I really want to invest in real estate out of state as well.”

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Young Park: And then that kind of led to us working together.

Tim Ulbrich: So that’s the knowledge/mentor piece. And I think the meetups is a great idea. We’ve been featuring more stories on this show with the hopes that we can connect more investors that can serve as a supporting community for one another. So that’s the knowledge piece, which led to a mentor, which led to some execution. What about the capital piece? I think many pharmacists may be in your shoes, three years out, five years out, seven years out, “Hey, Tim, I’ve got a boat load of student loan debt. I’d love to do real estate investing,” or, “I don’t even have student loan debt, but I just can’t imagine being able to save up $50,000-100,000.” Here, if you’re buying a property for $53,000, you’re doing a rehab for $42,000, you’re all in for $95,000. And the BRRRR method means that you’re bringing $95,000 of cash to get that done. Was that your money? Did you partner with other folks? How did you manage that?

Young Park: Yes, so I definitely didn’t have money. I had some money that I was getting from a W2 job, but this was actually one of the challenges or action steps that I needed to take during the mentorship course so that I can raise capital. So I had to go out and ask family and friends. I honestly — I think I raised $90,000 — I used some of my money too — from family and friends. And I got a ton of rejections. I asked over 30 people. And just to kind of explain to them what I’m doing, but you know, to them, of course I got a ton of rejections because I had zero track record.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Young Park: I had no track record. People who invested in me — invested with me, invested in me because of our personal relationship. They just know me personally and they know my character. So I was able to raise that. And I think another thing that — I keep coming back to the mentorship. Because I had that guidance to show them like, “Hey, I’m not just going there blindly. I have the people there. I have someone who’s guiding me through the whole step,” I think that helped as well. So I was able to raise $90,000.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. Which makes that deal possible.

Young Park: It does. It does.

Tim Ulbrich: So and before we talk about your second property, your most recent property — unless you’ve done more since we touched base last — I’m sure our listeners are as curious as I am when somebody hears, “Hey, Young’s living in Hawaii, he’s investing thousands of miles away in Kansas City,” you know, what challenges — we’ve talked about the opportunity, right, obviously you have a more affordable market, you’ve got a group there that has connections through your mentor, through contractors, so you’ve got some track record and experienced people that know the market. So the opportunities I think are obvious. But the challenges may be not so much, or folks may hear that and think, eh, it’s not for me. You know, I can’t see the property, per se, I don’t know it, I’ve got to trust people, this is my first time. Talk to us about some of those challenges with the out-of-area investing and how you were able to overcome those.

Young Park: Good question. Yeah, of course. I think the biggest challenges that people can’t get out of their head is not being able to see and feel, touch the property. I personally have not been to Kansas City yet. And I did get a third property recently, by the way.

Tim Ulbrich: Oh, cool.

Young Park: Yeah. So just working remotely and you have to be able to — at one point, just go with your gut so you can trust people. And I’m not just doing that blindly. I’m starting out with the people I know. So I start with let’s say a realtor or I start with my mentor CJ, and he’s giving me referrals so I try this other contractor, which I used for my second property and now again for my third property. I’m just slowly building a network, building relationships, building my team. And when you’re able to do that, you’re putting a lot of pressure off of you. Right? You have people that are doing the jobs for you. You know, really, at the end of the day, you really don’t have to see the property. Don’t attach your emotion to the property. It’s the numbers. But of course you still need to figure out how can you trust those people? And you just — at one point just have to trust them, right? They’re not intentionally trying to rip you off. They’re good people trying to make their living as well. And we’re giving them opportunity, they’re sharing their experience by working with us. So I think it’s almost the same. You just don’t see them face-to-face. But working remotely has been a good system for me.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that’s one thing, Young, that I think about, you know, one of the takeaways. And I’d recommend to our listeners Bigger Pockets, David Green has a book, “Long Distance Real Estate Investing: How to Buy, Rehab, Manage Out-of-State Rental Properties.” That was the takeaway I had from that book was it in part forces you to think about your systems and your processes because there’s certain things you just can’t do, right? You’re not getting on the plane often to go to Kansas City. Not happening.

Young Park: Nope.

Tim Ulbrich: So you’ve got to have a team there that you trust, that you have systems for communication, that you have systems for vetting contractors, for paying those invoices. Then obviously with more experience will come more of a track record, and I think that will become a magnet to other investors and other partners along the way as well. So tell us a little bit about your second property, which I knew of, April 2020. Didn’t know you added the third, so congratulations. Tell us a little bit more about those and the numbers as you’re willing to share.

Young Park: Sure. The second property, as you can imagine, was April 2020. Right in the start of COVID. So that deal was so — I was scared, honestly. I thought about backing out from the deal multiple times. But I’m so glad I went with it. So this property was actually listed on the MLS, Multiple Listings Service. I saw that on Zillow, and I spoke with the realtor who posted it. And it was actually a HUD property, which if I’m trying to define it, I think it’s a property that was purchased with an FHA loan. And the person who purchased it couldn’t make the payments, so it was like a foreclosure. So it was bank-owned property. And that property actually had some plumbing issues, so it wasn’t eligible for a bank- or like Fannie Mae-backed loans.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Young Park: So you only — you could only buy it cash. So that was actually an opportunity for investors like us because most people who are paying down payments wouldn’t be able to afford that. Right? So that property was listed at $79,000. And I used a current contractor that I have and I had to trust him. I had not used him before. We had some ups and downs, but at the end of the day, he did me right, and we are working on the third property together.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome.

Young Park: Those are the things you actually have to work on as an investor or with anyone, in fact. You know, people have different expectations. Right? So you know, his expectation and my expectations were different. But we talked it out like, “Hey, this is kind of like the finished product that I would like.” He’s like, “Alright, let’s do that moving forward.” So anyways, going back to my second property, so it was about a $25,000 rehab. So $79,000, $25,000, what is that? Like $104,000?

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Young Park: So that was my all-in. And I actually got it rented out, and it was rented out in September, I believe. Or maybe before. Oh, I’m sorry. I think it actually rented out in July. And this one was a lot higher because it was during the summer, so I got a tenant in there for $1,100 plus two pets, so $1,150 per month for the rent. And then I was actually able to refi out of that last month, less than a month ago, and it appraised at $144,000.

Tim Ulbrich: You like that $140,000 range.

Young Park: I didn’t go for that one, but it just ends up being that way. And to me, like when I was doing that conservative analysis, I was expecting it to be somewhere between $120,000-130,000.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Young Park: So with this one, I was actually expecting to have some of my money left in the deal, which was totally OK with me. But I ended up doing another home run. Maybe I have a couple thousand dollars in the deal at the end of the day.

Tim Ulbrich: So after the second one, if I’m doing my math right here, you’ve got about $286,000 worth of appraised property, and monthly cash flow in rent of just over $2,100, almost $2,200.

Young Park: Right, the gross rent is that.

Tim Ulbrich: Great. And then break down the third one for us.

Young Park: Third one, so I just got it under contract maybe — ooh, maybe two days after I refi’ed out of the other one or before. Somewhere around the same time. And oh man, this was an interesting one. So it was listed on the MLS since March. And it was initially listed at $115,000.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Young Park: And no one — there was like absolutely no interest on that property because it was still available by the time I purchased it. So every month, they’re cutting down by maybe $10,000. And in November — or actually, toward the end of October — they listed it at $85,000.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow. OK.

Young Park: Yeah. And I offered $65,000.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Young Park: And they came back to me saying, “Hey, we could do it for about maybe $75,000.” And I said, “There’s no way I could, I’m going to do it.” And this one actually was not an owner that was selling. It’s a huge investment firm that’s just purchasing these properties from auction, and they just keep the ones they like and they sell off the ones they don’t. So this was obviously one of the ones they didn’t like. So they were selling it, and I told them, “Hey, it’s $70,000 or nothing.” And then we agreed into the deal. So we got it under contract at $70,000. And then I sent in my contractor and got the estimated bid for it, and it was a little bit higher than I thought because they had a really good photographer, I guess, taking really nice pictures that looked a lot better than what it actually was.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Young Park: So yeah, my bid came back a little higher. So I went back to them and said, “Hey, I want another $10,000 discount or else I can’t do it.” And eventually, after a couple negotiations, they did settle for $60,000.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome.

Young Park: So I got it from $85,000 down to $60,000. And my estimated rehab is about $40,000 on it.

Tim Ulbrich: And you’re still doing the rehab right now or starting that?

Young Park: Just starting, uh huh. We just — I believe we just finished demo, and they’re buying materials. Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: OK. And what’s your estimated After Repair Value on that one?

Young Park: Right around the same, $120,000-130,000.

Tim Ulbrich: OK. And we won’t jinx it, but likely it could come in the $140,000s. So.

Young Park: Right, right.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, that’s crazy. So you got it at $60,000 through negotiation after you got the estimated bid higher than you thought. You said that it was originally listed at what? $115,000?

Young Park: Right, back in March.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Young Park: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Crazy. You know, what I love about this too, Young, too, it’s just a methodical, steady approach to getting that first deal done, learning from it, building from it, developing the team, you know, that’s the value of the BRRRR method. You’re getting your cash back out or as much as you can. Obviously through the refinance, going onto the second, going onto the third. And I suggest you’re just getting started. You know, my next question, as I suspect if you and I were to talk in three years, it’s probably not three properties but maybe it’s 10 or 20 properties and you’re probably helping and coaching others along this as well, is I mentioned two objections that I often hear, which were, “Hey, I don’t have the money to get started,” and, “I don’t feel like I have the knowledge or the experience to get started.” The third one I would add to that would be time. So as I hear you kind of going through all this, I think, man, where are you finding time to do all this not only in getting the deals done but then also in managing them? Talk to us about your approach to saving time, especially once you have them rehabs done and then you’re obviously managing these properties longer term. What have you done to minimize your time that’s invested?

Young Park: Good question. So first of all, I live in Hawaii and invest in Kansas City. So we are four or five time zones behind, so I start really early in the day. I usually wake up around 5 a.m. and get started and spend maybe an hour or hour and a half either analyzing or talking to my property manager or realtor or wholesaler or sending out emails and working on that. So I do that. Some days I come home and then if I see some properties that came through the email, I analyze them. And the other portion as far as maximizing my time, I have my property manager, who is managing everything. I would not recommend anyone to get into managing their own properties because your time is important. Yeah, you might be saving 8-10% of the rent, but you know, if you’re analyzing everything correctly and have that number included into your analysis, hey, it all works out. Another thing is I think more recently, I found a realtor that I really like, who is willing to write these low offers because most realtors think it’s a waste of time with the offers that they don’t think it’s going to go through. And you know, most of the time, it doesn’t. They’re correct. But if they find an investor who can actually close on the property, even though they’re on the lower price point, we could do multiple deals with them over the years. So that’s like an incentive for them as well. But kind of going back to that, I have my realtor, I just tell him, “Hey, John, I want to offer $60,000 on this property.” And then he just sends me the documents, and I just sign it online and he forwards it. So that saves a lot of time for me.

Tim Ulbrich: And I’m seeing a theme here of team. You know, you mentioned the mentor, you mentioned the agent that is willing to work with you on that, you mentioned the property management piece, you mentioned the contractors that you’ve gotten comfortable with, so I sense the team here has been incredibly important. And my last question for you is if we were to fast forward five years, what does success look like for you as it relates to your real estate investing?

Young Park: You know, I have to put more thought into that. I definitely — so personally for me, I don’t have x number of properties that I want because you know, number of property doesn’t mean really much. It’s really how much cash flow you’re getting. I would like to have maybe $5,000 worth of cash flow and I would like to go part-time if I can to free up time a little more and spend more time with my family and my loved ones and also be able to help my parents. I think that’s where I would like to be within five years. Sooner the better. We’ll see.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. And I love how you brought that full circle. I think it’s easy, especially as you’re having some success, you know, you kind of keep going, keep going, but what’s the purpose? Again, back to why you are doing this in the first place. And I sense for you that the time was important, the financial independence was important, the being able to provide for family and making sure that you’re investing in good cash flowing, profitable properties that will allow you to achieve those goals. So Young, thank you so much for taking time to come onto the show to share your story as a new practitioner that’s been active in real estate investing out of the area, what’s worked, and I think your story is going to be an inspiration and perhaps a guide for some that are recent graduates or have been out for awhile and wanting to figure out how they can get started in real estate investing. So again, thank you for coming on the show.

Young Park: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Tim.

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YFP 180: How Allyson Used Her Pharmacy Skills to Build a Natural Skincare Company

Posted on by yfpadmin

How Allyson Used Her Pharmacy Skills to Build a Natural Skincare Company

Allyson Brennan, founder and owner of Emogene & Co., a natural skincare company, joins Tim Ulbrich on the show. Allyson talks about her background in pharmacy, why and how she started Emogene & Co., how she has had success in such a short period of time, and what lies ahead as she prepares for growth in 2021 and beyond.

About Today’s Guest

Allyson Brennan is a pharmacist with 13 years’ experience specializing in Neurology and is now a hospital Clinical Pharmacy Manager in Nashville, TN. She received a B.S. in Psychology minor in chemistry/biology as an undergraduate from Millsaps College and then went on to receive her B.S in Pharmaceutical Sciences and her PharmD. from The University of Mississippi.

This year, Allyson founded and created her own natural skincare company called Emogene & Co. focusing on effective natural skincare and the science behind purposeful ingredients. She created this company after noticing the skincare industry producing products full of toxic and ineffective filler ingredients. As a child, she was inspired by her grandmother, Emogene, who had a remedy for every skin issue or ailment. Throughout her professional career as a pharmacist, she noticed how she was drawn to medicinal chemistry and how specific molecules affected organs in the body. After becoming a mother, she began to focus on what molecules are available straight from the Earth to provide nutrition for our largest organ, our skin.

In less than a year, Allyson has grown her company organically, filled over 5000 individual orders and is also available in 11 locations including dermatology clinics and medical spas, all while continuing to work full-time in Pharmacy Administration during the day.

Summary

Allyson Brennan, a clinical pharmacy manager, started using a vitamin C serum on her skin after having her daughter and looked at the ingredients listed in the product. She quickly went down the rabbit hole of researching natural versus synthetic ingredients and active versus inactive ingredients in skincare products. Allyson realized that because of her clinical pharmacy and compounding skills she was able to create a vitamin C serum using natural ingredients. She soon discovered that she had tapped into a passion that she never knew was there. Friends started asking what she was using on her skin and Allyson began making the serum for them.

In January 2020, Allyson created an LLC called Emogene & Co., a company focusing on effective natural skincare and the science behind purposeful ingredients. Nine months later (November 2020), Emogene & Co. carries 21 products, has sold over 5,000 individual orders, has an online shop and is sold in 11 locations, including 3 medical spas and a dermatology clinic. Emogene & Co. is made in small batches mostly by Allyson, however she has brought on two full-time employees to help with production and labeling. Allyson still works full-time as a clinical pharmacy manager and focuses on the business in the evening to the early morning.

Allyson believes that Emogene & Co. has an advantage over other skincare products because of her pharmacy background. She explains that she stands by natural products and ingredients and offers education to people about how effective her products are. On this episode Allyson also talks about becoming an entrepreneur, what the next year of the business will look like, and how she balances running Emogene & Co. with a family and a full-time pharmacy job.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Allyson, welcome to the show.

Allyson Brennan: Hey, Tim, how are you? Thank you so much for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Really excited to have you, been looking forward to this interview ever since you and I had met actually through Adam Martin, The Fit Pharmacist, and had a chance to learn more about the work that you’re doing at Emogene & Co. And really excited to share that story as well as some of your pharmacy background and to expose our listeners to I think what has been a very unique career path and obviously some success you’ve had with the business and would like to get an inside look into that. And so let’s start with your pharmacy career. Tell us about your background in clinical practice and then administration and management since you graduated with your PharmD from the University of Mississippi.

Allyson Brennan: Sure. So my background actually started before I even went to pharmacy school. I originally thought I wanted to go to vet school. I am an avid horse rider. I was a competitive horsewoman growing up. And so I wanted to start and go to vet school. And ultimately, fast forwarding through all of those decision-making pieces of my life, I shadowed a veterinarian. I wanted to be an equine leg surgeon, so that would entail about 16 years of post-undergrad study, a lot of time, a lot of decisions that go into pushing you into a different path because when times are tough, you know, people might take care of themselves before they take care of their animal ultimately. So I decided against vet school with the veterinarian that I shadowed, she just gave me so much amazing advice. And as I started to look into what I wanted to go into, I knew that a passion for me is really breaking things down — I wouldn’t say at that point to molecular structure but very much like how I build this but from a very kind of unpiecing things, if that makes sense.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Allyson Brennan: So I love chemistry. I’m a total chemistry nerd. So I had heard about pharmacy, right? And so I’ve been out for 13 years. Back then, pharmacy was a very different ball game. And I heard that through kind of talking to people that knew about pharmacists, what really it entailed, and I was able to balance a family life with a career. And so I went for it and was accepted to University of Mississippi pharmacy school after I completed a undergrad BS degree in psychology with a biology and chemistry minor. And went into pharmacy school at University of Mississippi or Ole Miss, you end up with your PharmD, your doctorate, as well as another BS degree. So I was ready to go. Once I got out of pharmacy school, I was looking into residencies because I knew I ultimately wanted to be in clinical practice in a hospital setting. I applied to some residency programs in Nashville, Tennessee, because I had done some undergrad rotations there but ended up getting an offer from a wonderful hospital, Huntsville Hospital, in Huntsville, Alabama, a very large — I believe at that point they were 881 beds. And it was a clinical position without needing the residency, and it was everything I was looking for. So I interviewed, I was accepted, and the next year, they started to require residencies for this because it is so clinically based. And so for me, my career started with no residency in a facility, a large facility, and I started with an ortho and neuro kind of concentration. So I really built that niche of pharmacy in hospital practice for about three years there. And then I ended up moving to Nashville and practiced specifically neuro, neuro-endovascular, under surgery and just neuro intensive patients for close to nine years at Centennial Medical Center in downtown Nashville. From there, I really built a lot of relationships with the providers and physicians that entailed in that specialty. So the neurosurgeons, the neuro-intensivists, the neurologists. And once I built those relationships, they offered me a just heap of opportunities to build my clinical knowledge as well as build into things that were the building blocks for me to move into administration. So order set development, process improvement, committee-sitting, PNT, presentations, just a wonderful group of physicians and after about eight years, I was loving clinical practice, but I knew that I was ready to kind of push on. And Centennial, where I was, is part of the HCA, Hospital Corporation of America, group. It’s a large privately owned corporation that owns hospitals. So there’s several sister facilities in Nashville, in the Nashville area. And there was a clinical manager position at a smaller sister facility about 11-12 miles from downtown Nashville. And I knew the director. He actually was a resident under me that I trained him at Centennial. He is a wonderful guy, and he had called me and said, “I really think that you’re ready for this position. I would love to work with you.” And I ultimately went ahead and interviewed, uncertain that it would be a good fit because it was so much smaller. And when I went, I loved the staff, I felt very much at home there. It was what I was looking for because I had become a mother at that point, so it was very much a community feel. And working with that director was a goal of mine because he was a wonderful leader. And so now I’ve had my two-year anniversary as the pharmacy clinical manager at a facility. So I manage about 20 pharmacists and elevate the clinical program there to really help them succeed with their interdisciplinary rounds and their clinical responsibilities within the facility for patient care.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And I appreciate you chronicling the journey. We’re going to come back here in a little bit as we dive into the work that you’re doing with Emogene & Co. as how that pharmacy management experience and how your pharmacy experience at large has helped you as you’ve been working to get that company off the ground and now continue to grow that company. Let’s start with kind of the basics around Emogene & Co. What is it? Why is it important? And ultimately, what problem is it solving? Because I really believe every business is ultimately trying to solve a problem. So tell us more about the backstory of Emogene.

Allyson Brennan: Absolutely. So for me personally, I was just chugging right along being a pharmacist and about two years ago, I was maybe 37.5-38 years old, and I decided I wanted to start to focus to take a little better care of my skin. I had taken care of my skin all my life, but you’re getting older and I was like, what can I do that I’m not doing that is good for my skin. And the interesting thing about this is that this journey is really a full circle of the creativity that I feel like I lost as a kid and really started focusing more on this logistical math and science, black and white kind of thinking. And I’m really loving this journey because I am at this place in my life where I’m opening up kind of the Pandora’s Box of creativity but in a very different way than I ultimately thought I would. So it started for me, honestly, Tim, with a Vitamin C serum. Vitamin C serums, for those that don’t know, is kind of your ultimate go-to that every female and male should have for antioxidant protection against environmental stressors and to prevent further aging. It’s natural. There can be synthetic versions of it, but it’s kind of your go-to for just preventing your aging, starting in your 20s. So I spent about $150 on a Vitamin C serum. And I turned it on the back and looked at the label and was like, what am I paying for? Just the chemistry nerd came out, and I usually don’t do that, which is crazy. And so I turned it on the back, and being a pharmacist with the chemistry and science background that we all have, I was like, well, I don’t see ascorbic acid. Where is it?

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Allyson Brennan: I did notice an ingredient that looked like some sort of derivative of that. So I went to Google. And I Googled this specific ingredient and found out, you know, that it’s a synthetic ester version. So then before I knew it, I had dropped down into a very deep rabbit hole of synthetic versus pure of all ingredients and natural versus synthetic, active versus inactive, and really started to pull apart the skincare game, if you will. I started then. It grew arms. I started into essential fatty acid concentrations and what that looks like for your skin, yadda, yadda. And so before I knew it, I had tapped into a passion I never knew I had. When I looked at this Vitamin C serum, I was like, I can make that. Like I can make that. And I’m not a real DIYer. So I actually made some and didn’t tell anybody and started to apply it to my face. And I would say about two weeks later, I had friends that were asking me, what are you doing to your skin? Like something looks different. So I told them, I’m making a bootleg Vitamin C serum.

Tim Ulbrich: Good old compounding labs back, right, from pharmacy school.

Allyson Brennan: Yes. I tell you, I tapped into all this knowledge that you never think comes back. So I started to really appreciate that they asked me to make some for them. I was not charging anybody, it was just more of you know, friends sharing with friends. And then ultimately, in about November of 2019, I was like, maybe I should try something on the side. Maybe I should try to do this. Now, for understanding a little background on me, I am a very driven person. I’m someone who puts their head down and thinks well, I’ll do a little side project. If I’m going to throw my time into something, I’ve put blinders on, and I go. I’m all in. And if you’re familiar at all with the Enneagram or if anyone on that on this podcast that listens is, I am a Type 3.

Tim Ulbrich: I’m with you there.

Allyson Brennan: OK. I’m a 3w2, 3 wing 2. And I am the poster child for 3, The Achiever. And so I really think that learning the Enneagram helped me understand what drove me to this place. So I’ve never been an entrepreneur, I never, ever, ever, not even for a second, thought about owning my own business, my own pharmacy, let alone a skincare company. So I just went for it. So in January, I went ahead and created the company through an LLC. The name, Emogene & Co. speaks to, it pays homage to my grandmother Emogene. And I am named after her Allyson Gene, and my daughter is Parker Emogene. And that’s where the Co. comes in. But my grandmother was someone who could make something from nothing and had the most amazing skin. And that generation was very much a make-it-work type and create anything. And for me, I love science, I love chemistry, I love — as a pharmacist, we all know that there’s a time and a place for medication and chemicals. But I wanted to really focus on natural ingredients because I think that in the skincare industry — and I’m a baby in this — I think that the skincare industry can be extremely misleading to consumers. And the reason why is that there’s a lot of terms and titles that are thrown around without the knowledge behind that. I think that there is a time and a place, like I said, for chemicals. But if you can have things that come from the Earth naturally that are extremely effective, I want to focus on that. And that all came into play when I became a mother. What I started with a Vitamin C serum. And I started with a couple of other items that I actually made, a stretch mark prevention cream when I was pregnant, and I did a lot of tweaks to it and offered that. And then I offered a body scrub that is amazing for increasing the circulation in the blood to the skin, which creates a different kind of solution for your skin. I’ve been making that for three years just for myself. I offered that. And then I really focused on facial oils and essential fatty acid nutrition for your skin. So here I am, almost a year later, and I offer 21 products. And I’m offered in 11 locations as wholesale clients, so they’re my stockist list. And that includes three MedSpas and a dermatology clinic, which was kind of my moment for really taking this to a level where being taken seriously in a dermatology field, in a medical field, that it’s a natural product. I have done a little bit over 5,000 individual orders in this time. And I am still a full-time pharmacist and mom and wife. There’s not a lot of sleep in my life right now, but I am so driven by the passion for this, and it ultimately all comes down to I want to offer the ability for people to No. 1, age gracefully, No. 2, to improve the quality and the nutrition to their skin because we all take so much advantage of our skin. It’s the largest organ that we have. And I want it to be an accessible option for people. I don’t think skincare should be a luxury. I don’t think that people should not be able to afford to take care of an organ for themselves. And so my price points are at a place where I want people to be able to access that but feel good about the science that kind of marries the natural skincare for them. So it really boils down to a lot of relationship-building with customers. Anything starts out as a family-and-friend trying your items. And then once they are like, wow, OK, you really have something, they spread by word of mouth. And then word of mouth starts to go to the right people that are the really big word-of-mouthers, you know?

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Allyson Brennan: And then ultimately, you start to have stores that want to carry you. And it’s based off of the fact that it is skincare, which is a very saturated market, but it is natural rather than stating it’s natural, it is natural. But I get to really flex that pharmacist science arm with it, so that is the solution I wanted to offer. Like I said, it’s a saturated market in the skincare industry. I’m learning that also it is an absolutely overpriced industry. But it really comes down to do you believe and trust what someone is selling you? And I, being a psychology background, I want to develop that trust relationship for people to know that I ultimately have their best interest at heart for what is best for their skin. So that’s the solution I wanted to offer. And I hope I do that and I continue to do that. And I don’t want to sacrifice the integrity of the ingredients or the integrity of that brand.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that really resonates, Allyson, when you and I had talked several weeks ago, that really resonated with me is wanting to keep the integrity of the brand, wanting to focus on the natural and pure ingredients, wanting to bring this at a price point that was more affordable. And when I think of the timeline — and I know you mentioned and you honored it, but I don’t want our listeners to gloss over it — one year ago, November 2019, you know, if I heard you correctly, kind of idea was coming to be, that was starting to form, but it wasn’t until the beginning of 2020 that you actually formed the company. And here we are, just over 10 months into this journey, you mentioned 21 products, 11 locations, obviously an active e-commerce online, over 5,000 units sold, and so of course there’s a trajectory here. And my natural next question, which I’m guessing our listeners are thinking as well, is like, break down the operations. Like how are you doing this? You mentioned starting with the compounding. So are you up late at night and compounding? Do you have a team? Do you have a distribution facility? Like this happened so quickly, so tell us how you’ve been able to scale up to be able to fulfill those orders while also being an N of 1 when you started.

Allyson Brennan: An N of 1. I’m still an N of 1, but I do have maybe .25s on the side, and I’m so grateful for those. So for me, my first sale was — I formed the LLC and all of the background information you do to form a business in January — and my first sale was January 26. It started, you know, social media, no website, I had Square, which the majority of people are familiar with. And so it was literal orders coming through email, text, Facebook messaging or Instagram messaging.

Tim Ulbrich: Instagram, yeah.

Allyson Brennan: Yeah. And then invoicing them to their email. And then they would pay. So it started out really just grassroots. I don’t know how much more grassroots you could be. As far as the compounding goes, let’s say for instance, let’s speak of this Vitamin C serum. OK, there’s 21 products now, but let’s just speak to this. So I was starting only making batches of eight. Eight at a time. That was it. And I would say now, I’m making those in batches of 120. So in this amount of time, I’ve learned that scale because I was still white-knuckling it, you know, really holding those reins of wanting to know that I’m putting out — I mean, everything is made by me, filled by me, packaged by me, labeled by me, heat-sealed by me, sold by me. And that’s a lot process once you reach a certain point in time. So I was really only just, if you will, dog paddling through life. I was making what I needed to fill those orders and then trying to still be a mom and a wife and be a pharmacist manager. So I think at some point, I really had to stop holding onto that control and start to hire the right team around me. But I have a very specific thing I look for in that team. So before I got to that point, it really looked like let’s say — so I create a sterile field at my home in my kitchen. I am still working from my home. This was maybe one closet upstairs in my house that had, you know, the packaging, the raw ingredients, whatever. And then I would fill the orders literally fresh made, on the spot, and I would fill those orders. Let’s say three months into that, I was still making the same amount of batches of things, but I was maybe expanding to another closet, you know? So nine months in, I am in six closets, the entire garage, my dining room is my office per se where I fill orders. I have a shipping station in that room, and I have my entire dining room is not even used anymore other than Emogene & Co. I have complete shelving in the entire room. But I still create this sterile field in the kitchen, and so now the batches are larger, I finally — you know, I’ve had a lot, I’m so grateful for it. I’ve had a lot of females that love my products, offer to help. “I love what you’re doing, I’m so passionate about it, I see that you’re passionate about it, let me help you.”

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Allyson Brennan: And I’m grateful for that. But when you have something like this, you don’t want people to do it just because they like the products. You want someone who has the same drive and the same passion to grow.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right. Yep.

Allyson Brennan: And those are very specific qualities that I look for. So for me personally, I have two women that are full-time employees that are — one is a pharmacy tech who’s a chemotherapy technician I’ve worked with for 10 years. And the other is a pharmacist who is on staff, and I’m her manager at work. She’s a workforce. These are people that don’t know how to stop. But it’s not a work that they grovel in. They love it, they’re passionate about it, they’re positive, their attention to detail and specifics is second to none, and that was ultimately why I chose to say yes to them. What they’re helping me with now is — the chemotherapy technician has six products that she now compounds herself. And these do not — the products that I offer, there are some that are just mixed dry ingredients, there are some that are mixed liquid ingredients, and then there are others that are very complicated where they’re a lot more chemistry lab type with an oil phase, water, phase, heat phase, cool phase. She mixes just the solid and the liquid ingredients. So she has six products that she makes. And she forms a sterile field in her home and does those, and she heat seals and labels her own. And then she passes them to me. The other employee, she is a mother of two and a full-time pharmacist, and so what she does for me is she does the labeling, which is crazy that she is — it’s crazy how helpful it is.

Tim Ulbrich: Oh sure, yeah.

Allyson Brennan: Yeah, so she literally does the labeling as well as now we have a holiday product with a local company that’s a big collaboration and it’s a dry ingredient body scrub. And she — I taught her that recipe and checked her off on a competency like I would a pharmacist. And she mixes that now. And we pass off bulk everything in the parking lots before we go into our day jobs. And it used to look like maybe staying up until 10-11, and now every single night, I’m up until 2 o’clock in the morning, and I’m up at 6-6:30, depending on what time I have to be at the hospital. So I look very tired. But I am so passionate about it, and so I very much have fallen into a routine of what pieces of the night are where I start certain products.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Allyson Brennan: Yeah. So it’s a lot of compounding at the very beginning after putting my daughter to bed. It’s compounding if I’m low — I have PAR sheets. And we have margins, and we have all of the background that you need for those pieces. There’s ordering that happens every Friday, and I do all of the ordering. But I focus on their PAR sheets filled out, and they pass those to me with their time sheets. So yeah, I start with making the products while I’m still kind of fresh. And then once maybe 11 or 12 rolls around, I’m usually finished that compounding and I have put up, boxed them up for the pharmacist to pass off the next day that she’ll do the labeling. And then I start the admin of anything that’s needed, and I fill orders until usually about 2, and then I go to bed. And then I do it all over the next day.

Tim Ulbrich: Start over.

Allyson Brennan: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: And I love that, Allyson, because I think we all know the hustle that needs to be there. And obviously as you continue to build, you’re going to have an opportunity to bring more folks in and efficiencies will happen over time and obviously as you continue to scale. But when you’re getting something off the ground like this, like anybody listening that wants to get any company or initiative, side hustle, whatever you want to call it — this obviously is much bigger than that — you’ve got to hustle, you’ve got to work. And I think when you’re that passionate about the mission or the why of what you’re doing, I can speak from firsthand experience, I suspect you may feel the same way that as exhausting as it can be, it doesn’t necessarily feel like the type of work that somebody hearing it may think that it feels like because the mission is so clear on why you’re trying to do what you’re trying to do. And although you described it, Allyson, as being pretty homegrown and still distribution happening out of your home, kudos to you, I think you guys have done an awesome job on the marketing side, on the packaging side, my wife and I purchased and ordered several products before we did this interview — I wanted to get kind of a feel of the experience — and have really enjoyed not only the products but also kind of seeing the behind-the-scenes of how you have distributed and packaged and marketed those. And I think you’ve done a fantastic job, so especially when you think about this as 10 months into the journey, so it’s really, really incredible. One of the questions I have as I think about just purely from the lens of a business owner is help me break down a little bit further, like what is the differential advantage of Emogene & Co. And the reason I ask that is obviously you’ve had success, but when I hear you talk about like natural and pure, like that marketing of skincare products — while I certainly don’t consider myself an expert in the space — is out there already and even if it isn’t natural or pure, how do you overcome that perception from the consumer that you can separate yourself from those products? So what is the differential advantage for you and your company?

Allyson Brennan: Yeah. First of all, thank you so much for such kind words. That really means a lot to people that start out and second guess themselves and they go back and forth and they’re passionate and the next night they’re like, am I doing the right thing? So I really appreciate that. But ultimately, Tim, it does fall back on “seeing what got you there.” It falls back on my pharmacy background, and I’m very thankful, and that’s not lost on me that I would not have the knowledge base to do this and feel good about what I’m putting out and solid and confident of what I’m putting out if I did not have that medicinal chemistry background and the pharmacy background in general. So you’re right, the skincare industry, like I said earlier and like you just alluded to, you know, there’s terms that are thrown around that people just don’t know what they mean. And as consumers, we are drawn to bright, shiny objects. And in the skincare industry, that looks like wonderful packaging, it smells good, feels good, but you fall for it might state that it’s natural but it’s actually not natural. And so — and I’ve turned down opportunities for a couple of collaborations with larger medical-scale type opportunities of products because they — it was not going to be a natural product. It was going to be synthetic. Because I do stand by wanting to stay with the natural because there’s — it’s just a world that is just wide. You can cast a wide net and get some really amazing, effective skincare that way. But my goal with this company was to offer natural skincare that’s effective, right? So I don’t want it to just be something that’s another option for people to not know what to do with their skincare, but I want it to be accessible, like I mentioned, but I want it to not be fussy. There’s a lot of options for people to take care of their skin, and I don’t want people to be confused about how to best take care of their skin. The other piece of this that I’m hoping to offer and that I really do hang my hat on with my company is the scientific background of the natural ingredients. Just because they’re natural does not mean that they don’t have the science behind them. They come from the earth, there’s science behind them. So I want people to know that there is legitimate education that is there behind that and lastly, where I really thrive and where I really know that I thrive and I love it and I really try to build on this is to offer that education to people.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Allyson Brennan: So as a small skincare company, which is sometimes labeled as indie skincare companies, you know, I’m not competing with the big guys. It’s an opportunity to really dial in with your customer base and with your clientele and to get personal with them. And the majority of how this business started was, like I said, those messages where people would say, “You offer these items. This is my skin type. Go. Like tell me what I need.” And for me, it is not about offering every item that I need them to buy. It’s really about building that trust. Honestly it is. So I will have women that will come and say, “Alright, I want the whole thing.” And I will say, “First of all, let’s talk about your skin type. But let’s start with these three things because I don’t want you to overwhelm your skin and then you might not appreciate the products or your skin might not just because it’s too much for you at one time. And then let’s build on it. So I want you to start with something that works for you, and let’s go from there.” So my goal is to offer yes, natural skincare, but that has a scientific background that can actually be spoken and related to but also there’s the education behind it. So to grow this company is not just to offer more products. It is to scale, that is a — it’s a pivotal point that I’m at now that is a new problem that I don’t know how to solve because I’m new at this. So you know, 2021 is a year of scaling. It’s a year of working efficiently, moving into a warehouse space, SEO and strategic marketing. I do have a girl that I’m about to bring on for that who is wanting to build a company because she’s worked for larger companies. I have a delivery lady that helps me part-time now so that gives me some time back in my day. But that still offers a customer experience for people to have the deliveries. So yeah, it’s really a combination of all of those things. But I want to separate myself apart by the pharmacist piece of it to speak to the actual education of what you’re putting on your skin.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that’s great. And one of the things you said regarding scale in 2021, I mean, it certainly feels like that, sounds like that, based on the trajectory you’ve had for the last 10 months. But as you sort of alluded to and didn’t say directly necessarily is scaling can have its challenges for a variety of reasons. And so the question I have for you is if we fast forward a year from today and you’re now looking at wrapping up almost the second year of the business, heading into the third year, what does success look like for you and for the business as a whole?

Allyson Brennan: Oh, man. It’s so funny, I was recently on a podcast, and that same question was given to me but in five years. And you know, I feel like as pharmacists, we’re so — we’re trained when we’re students going into trying to get a job or maybe getting into a residency of answering that five-year question. It is a different ball game for me now.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Allyson Brennan: So you know, I’m really back to that baby step, you know, of learning something brand new. So ultimately for me, where I find the most passion is the creative piece of this. Now, creativity is going to look different for me, like I said. I feel like I’m coming full circle to the little girl — I used to be an artist. Like I really loved to draw and paint and just be extremely creative in that sense. And there was some point in time, I would say maybe 8 or 9 years old, where something switched for me and I just became more math and science based. But I think what this company is really doing for me personally is opening back up that creative side. It looks at it in a different because I can tap into skills that I now have, right? So for a year from now, I need for me to keep my sanity to be at that place of efficiency. I want to always keep the creative edge. I always want to keep creating. There’s a lot of things I’ve created that just were terrible, you know, that I would never put on the market. But to really better streamline what I’m doing now, and that looks like a lot of things that are not in the lab creating. It looks like very much a business model, so having the right people around me that know that sense, that I trust and they really believe in this little company to grow, that’s a goal for me in a year. A year from now, a goal is to be in a third space because I’ve completely outgrown my house and also to create — still create that need and want. I mean, I’m tapping into a southern market here with my wholesalers and in clinics and my customer base. But it’s to continue to scale that. But I am only one person, and I only have 24 hours in a day, and I need about 30 hours, honestly. So

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, amen. Yeah.

Allyson Brennan: Yeah. You understand. And so I really want to learn how to segregate what that looks like for me but still continue that growth. And it might look like scaling back in pharmacy. I truly, truly hang my hat on pharmacy is what got me here. So I am not that person who is going to be cold turkey leaving pharmacy, you know? No matter how big the company gets, it’s a building block, baby step approach for me to step down as this grows. But I want to do it the right way. I don’t want to do it too fast. That’s very important to me.

Tim Ulbrich: And let me prod there a little bit because one of the things I’m thinking about this as, you know, I believe one of the challenges, especially of a successful business like this or for others that maybe have started a side hustle that grows quickly and can quickly outgrow the time that one has available to dedicate to it, you know, is that one of the risks is that it may not reach its full potential, which matters when you’ve got a really clear purpose and vision, right? Because ultimately, you know, there’s only so many hours in the day, and obviously you’ve got a purpose and a vision and a mission for why you’re doing what you’re doing. You’re not just selling products to sell products. So is that something that hangs on your mind, crosses your mind, that you’re not allowing the business to reach its full potential? Or is that an area, as you’ve kind of alluded to, that bringing the right people around you and putting you in the area that you can provide the most value to the company, that you’re going to be able to continue to see and scale that growth while also making sure the vision and the mission stays front and center?

Allyson Brennan: I mean, great question, Tim. Yes. It’s on my mind daily. Daily. And I would say it’s on my mind daily at this point because starting out, you know, last year or two years ago, you know, when I was literally just a consumer or even just January, taking my first order, I wouldn’t have known what to expect. I, like I said, didn’t go into this without really taking it seriously and growing and pushing. And I’m a hustler. I mean, I am. And that’s something that I understand about myself. So I use that to my advantage now, but I also really, really appreciate and thrive on relationships with people. So those are two things that are not something I do lip service to. They’re a part of who I am, and they’re a part of what this business is. So when I talk about am I doing a service, it’s funny, my dad — I’m very close to my dad. My dad is a farmer. And my dad knows how to grow something from the ground. It might not be skincare, but he knows what it looks like to start and then reach a certain level and then basically at the very end, reap what you sow.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Allyson Brennan: No pun intended, really. So he told me, I would say seven months in, he said, you’re behind and don’t even know it. And that has stuck with me so much because I was like, he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. And not even a month after that, it hit a whole new level. A whole new level. So yeah, it’s on my mind every day. I also have to say that I am the type of person, if I want to feel like — so there’s overwhelmed, right? And there’s underwhelmed or bored. And then there’s whelmed. And I think that everyone, everyone kind of thrives at a different threshold. For me, what I thrive is at overwhelmed for a lot of people. But I want to stay whelmed. Does that make sense?

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. Yep.

Allyson Brennan: I want to stay plugged in. I want to stay alive. I want to stay with my finger on the pulse of what is happening with this. So to do that, I have to feel like I’ve got a little bit of control with that, which for a lot of people seriously feels like they are spinning out, it is chaos — and it is chaos. I mean, it’s full-blown chaos.

Tim Ulbrich: Controlled chaos, right?

Allyson Brennan: It’s controlled chaos. 100%. So I’m starting to get much friendlier with the idea of bringing the right people in and making a team effort at this. And that is the way that me personally, I think that I can grow this and not feel like what you were saying where I’m not doing it a service because when I’m at work during the day in a hospital, I am 100% there. I am managing people, putting out fires, you know, provider and physician conversations, building formularies. And there is no time for all this. So then it is overwhelming when the minute I leave the hospital, right? So I want it to be something that when I leave, I am managing from that CEO perspective where I’ve got the right team underneath me that I trust, they’re just as invested as I am, but they are the people that will help that grow. And it’s not that they are employees of me. I want them to be a piece of what that is because they believe in it. So that is where I am now of looking at 2021 right now, I’m a baby in a product-based market. It’s the holidays, and I’m slightly terrified of what is coming. I’ve already had double the sales that I had last month at the end of the month.

Tim Ulbrich: Oh, gees.

Allyson Brennan: And we’re on — yeah. And I’m exhausted. And I’m overwhelmed, for me.

Tim Ulbrich: And for our listeners, it’s only Nov. 10 when we’re recording this.

Allyson Brennan: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: So.

Allyson Brennan: Yeah, so it’s — you know, it’s that Type 2 fun where it’s chaos in the moment and you look back on it and you’re like, wow. So I’m extremely proud of it, but I’m trying to stay very aware of what that is and then, you know, come 2021, I need to take a little bit of time to say, OK, we need to take some time, not do the logistics of filling the order, let’s gather my team and let’s look at what this looks like. And that is what is what my goal is for January 2021 so then we can approach the new year with the next products we put out are very smart, efficient products. I’m scaling back a couple of products that are my slowest movers, right? Hiring that SEO management, the marketing and strategic management, that is just not my forte. Hiring on a couple other girls that might not be full-time that I truly believe their attention to detail. And then from there, what happens? I did not see this happening with word of mouth in almost a year. So I really am so grateful but also very optimistic. But I do keep myself in check that if I reach a level that it doesn’t grow beyond that, I need to be OK with it. I need to know that I have exceeded what expectations were, and that’s a tough thing for me to swallow because I am not someone who celebrates the wins all the time because of how I am programmed. I tend to keep going and going and going and let’s keep building without sacrificing what your ultimate mission was in the first place. So I have to tell myself that, that’s a daily mantra that I tell myself, if this reaches a certain pinnacle and it wasn’t what you ultimately thought it would be, you need to be OK with it.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think, Allyson, as an outside observer, just kind of talking out loud as I hear you reflect on the journey and from our previous discussion, I think the business potentially gets bigger and more successful than it already has, which is incredible, and further achieves the mission and vision that you have with the business with less of you. And I mean that in the most sincere, kind way of like, you have built an incredible, incredible thing, but as I hear you talk about scaling up, bringing other people in, and I think putting yourself in the position where the company gets the most value from Allyson that nobody else can do as well, and then those other areas that maybe aren’t areas of interest or strength or that you have other areas of expertise you can bring in. But I think like the relationship piece, that certainly feels like a strength here, setting the vision, making sure you’ve got the right people on the team, on the bus, and bringing other people in that perhaps Emogene grows and will continue to grow and scale with more even balance of your time. And one of the questions I have for you is I know one of the daily struggles I have is pouring my time and energy into YFP because I believe its mission is that important but also balancing the time that I treasure, deeply treasure, with my wife Jess and our four boys. And so I suspect many of our listeners may be wondering what I’m wondering here, which is how do you reconcile how you spend your time and work on work and on the business and what that may mean for time away from family and friends, whether that’s short term or long term?

Allyson Brennan: Oh, man. This is the tough one for me. So we all have our strengths and our weaknesses and our opportunities for improvement. Let’s leave it at that. This is my opportunity for improvement with just who I am as a person. Let’s say — I’ll give you an example. I leave the hospital, it’s been a full day of meetings, committee meetings, building things, process improvements, yadda, yadda. And then my only alone time is the 35-minute drive home. That is it. I am not good at sitting. I’m not good at just listening to the radio, listening to a podcast. I am having business meetings for Emogene & Co. on the phone, I am — I shouldn’t say this — I’m texting and driving — but I’m still multitasking. And then I get home, I’ll pick my daughter up from school, and I will start with that piece of, you need to take — Allyson needs to take an hour, an hour to put the phone away, put all of the productivity away, you need to have a transition time between the first job and the second job, right? And I’ll say, OK, that means that I come in, I’ll lay things down, I’ll unpack the packages, the bulk packages that have come in, I will open them to see what it was today. And that’ll be it. Sometimes — more times than not, and I’m very transparent about this — two hours later, I’m still in the thick of now I’m processing orders, you know?

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Allyson Brennan: And what that does is that does take away time from my family. And I have — again, transparently speaking — this year has been a completely rebalancing of what it looks like for our family. I’m not saying it’s been easy. And now, I do have a support system. You know, my husband has supported, now he’s the cook for dinner every night, not me. But ultimately, I don’t want to be at that frequency. I want to be able to manage that better. And that is the ultimate growth for me. I think — I mean, this is just true and this is my psychology background speaking — we are all works in progress our entire lives.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Allyson Brennan: And the quicker that you learn as an entrepreneur or as a new person starting out, you give yourself some grace, you take a breath easier.

Tim Ulbrich: Amen.

Allyson Brennan: Instead of thinking that overnight, it’s got to be built. And that’s coming from someone who thought that overnight, it’s got to be built. I don’t — I don’t take the baby steps easily. But I know for my sanity and for the quality of life and for me ultimately to build a business, I have to learn that. That is a muscle I’m learning to flex and to build. So you have to start somewhere and you have to decide what it looks like and then block out all the other noise because the noise is what will get you off the path. The noise is what overwhelms you and makes you stop before you’ve started. And I’ve been there. So the balancing of the family life is something that is a daily struggle and on my mind. I’m getting better at it, and it’s because I know myself well enough now. I know myself well enough now that someone has to physically remove the phone from my hand. I know myself well enough now that someone has to physically take me away for me to vacate. I don’t do staycations. I don’t do weekend-long weekends. I don’t do any of that. That is not who I am, and I accept it.

Tim Ulbrich: The business is right there, yeah.

Allyson Brennan: The business is there. I accept it for me. My husband and I were huge travelers before we had our daughter. And now with COVID, it’s a little difficult. But for me to truly vacate, to let go of everything, to help reset your mind because we need that, I have to be gone. It’s got to be a certain type of trip that still speaks to me needing to be active, but I cannot tap into the things that drain you because you’re wanting to build them. So I think it’s — you’ve got to know how you’re programmed and how you’re built. And you have to just start somewhere and block out noise.

Tim Ulbrich: And that’s fantastic. And I love the self-reflection, the self-awareness. What you said really resonates with me and I think too just giving yourself permission, forgiveness, where you’re not going to get it right. It’s a life-long — I believe as well — it’s a life-long journey, and there’s going to be stumbles along the way. And I think that’s part of the process. And having those around you that can help keep you accountable and being willing to admit those areas where input and help would be valuable. So as we wrap up here, Allyson, where can our listeners go to learn more about you and the work that you’re doing?

Allyson Brennan: Sure. So for me, I have a website that’s available, it’s www.Emogene&Co.com — that’s all one word. And Emogene is interesting, it’s spelled Emogene. It’s an old-school spelling of the name a lot of people are not used to. Again, it pays homage to my grandmother, so Emogene&Co.com is the website. On Instagram, I am @__Emogene&Co__. And then on Facebook, I am Emogene & Co. So I am tapped into those resources all day, every day, if you can imagine from the podcast. And then email address, you can sign up for a subscriber, and you can contact me directly through the website.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff. And we will link to all of those in the show notes. And Allyson, this has been fantastic. You know, when I had first learned of the work that you’re doing, I got really excited of kind of the intersection of pharmacy administration, management, and entrepreneurship. And we both have some experiences in those areas. And I suspected this would be a fantastic story to share, and it certainly has. So thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show. I wish you the best of luck and success with the work that you’re doing, and we’ll be touching base in the future to see how things are going.

Allyson Brennan: Oh, it’s an honor, Tim. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

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YFP 178: 5 Lessons Learned from Nate’s First House Flip

Posted on by yfpadmin

5 Lessons Learned from Nate’s First House Flip

Nate Hedrick, the Real Estate RPH, joins Tim Ulbrich to recap the 5 lessons he learned from his first real estate investment flip. Nate digs into how he found the deal, how he ran the numbers, what went well and what didn’t and how he sees real estate investing fitting into his financial plan.

About Today’s Guest

Nate Hedrick is a 2013 graduate of Ohio Northern University. By day, he is a clinical pharmacist and program advisor for Medical Mutual. By night and weekend, he works with pharmacists to buy, sell, flip, or rent homes as a licensed real estate agent with Berkshire Hathaway in Cleveland, Ohio. He has helped dozens of pharmacists achieve their goal of owning a house and is the founder of www.RealEstateRPH.com, a real estate blog that covers everything from first-time home buying to real estate investing.

Summary

Nate Hedrick, the Real Estate RPh, got into real estate investing in 2016 after reading Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki. This book inspired him to diversify his assets, so Nate pursued real estate investing as a way to do just that. He obtained his real estate license shortly after and started to work with and learn from real estate investors.

Nate has grown to love the BRRR method (buy, rehab, rent, refinance) which allows him and his wife, Kristin, to preserve their capital while continuing to grow their portfolio. Although Nate lives in Cleveland, Ohio, it’s difficult to find a BRRR property there. He connected with a partner in Michigan and was able to find a great deal. He purchased a 3 bedroom, 1 bathroom, 1,400 square foot single family home from a wholesaler for $8,000 that needed a lot of work done to it. Nate digs into the 5 key lessons he learned from flipping property:

Run your numbers, carefully.
Plan for something to go wrong.
It’s not like HGTV.
Prepare multiple exit strategies.
Trust your team.

Nate digs into each lesson learned and explains why they are so important to remember if you are on your own real estate investment journey.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Nate, welcome back to the show.

Nate Hedrick: Thanks. Always great to be here.

Tim Ulbrich: So we had you on not too long ago, Episode 160 where you actually took over the mic, interviewed Shelby and Bryce about their home buying experiences and working with you through the Real Estate Concierge service. So time for me to take the mic back as we go into this next episode. But how have things been going for you?

Nate Hedrick: They’ve been great. It’s been great. You know, COVID’s made everything a little trickier on both the pharmacy and the real estate side, but it’s still been doing really well. And actually, Kristen and I are enjoying the extra time we’re getting with the girls here at home. So it’s been really great.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. Definitely a silver lining I guess if there is one in the pandemic. You know, I’m guessing our listeners might be wondering how you as a opportunistic real estate investor are looking at real estate, the market, in terms of both what you’re seeing as an agent but also as an investor in the midst of the pandemic. So give us some insights from your viewpoint as both an agent and helping people get placed into homes as well as an investor. How is the pandemic impacting things on both sides?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, it’s really interesting. There’s so many different aspects we could talk about. It could be its own show, quite honestly. But the highlights are that right as the pandemic hit, there was kind of a big lull. And then as we started to open things back up and the lockdowns started to end, we saw just a huge, huge seller’s market. Everybody wanted to buy, get into a home, and nobody was selling. And we’re still kind of fighting that, actually. The clients that I’m working with right now, I’ve got four houses under contract. And all of those were snap decisions. And it had to be very, very quick. So it’s still pretty much a seller’s market. I’m starting to see some slowdowns in some areas of the country. I was actually talking with a partner this week about some of the things that they’re seeing where a house that used to be sold within 24 hours is now sitting there for two weeks, which is — again, if you look back over the years, that’s nothing. But for what we’ve been experiencing, that’s kind of crazy. But I think the biggest thing to kind of watch for and where I’m taking a bit of a pause here for a little bit is just obviously the election results that are pending as we’re talking today and then where COVID’s going to progress over the course of winter. I think that will affect things in terms of renters being able to either buy or not or things like that. So there’s a number of factors that I think will be interesting to watch as we head into 2021.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And as our community already is — knows you and the work that you’ve been doing, and we’re going to continue that throughout the year into the new year, obviously going more into the spring and home buying season in 2021. So stay with us because there is a lot changing. You mentioned obviously the election. As we record right now two days post-election, results still not decided as we hit record. And then of course we’ve got the pandemic and everything else that may come at us that we don’t know at this point in time. So we’ll keep you updated. Hang with us whether somebody is looking to buy for the first time, whether they’re moving, whether they’re looking to jump into a real estate investing property or expand upon the portfolio that they have, we would love to be alongside of you in that journey. So Nate, I wanted to bring you on to today’s show because of a recent article you posted on your Real Estate RPH, and we’ll link to that in the show notes, called “5 Lessons Learned Flipping my First House.” And before we jump into those lessons, I’d love for you to first talk about how and why you got into real estate investing. So here, we’re talking about your first flip. But it’s not your first investment property. So why you got into real estate investing and ultimately, you know, why you decided to go this route in terms of flipping this home.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, so that’s great. My whole real estate journey really started with the idea of wanting to be a real estate investor. If you go back, way back to 2016 when I first read “Rich Dad Poor Dad” and started getting into real estate investing books, I just — I caught the bug and was like, I’ve got to do this. And that led me to getting my real estate license for a number of various reasons. And I started working with investors to really start to learn the process and figure it out. But I’ve always wanted to do it. I think I look at it as a really great way to diversify our assets and to create passive income. And I think, again, when you change your mindset a bit from I want to work for 50 years and hopefully my retirement’s enough at the end to I want to work now to figure out how to make sure it’s enough at the end, it makes it very, very clear that real estate investing is almost necessary, in my opinion. So it really, it was kind of an inevitability. And then how I was going to do it really changed the more Kristen and I talked about our plan together and what opportunities were available to us. And so for us, one of the things that we read about early on and really liked was the idea of what’s called a BRRRR. And we’ve talked about this on the podcast before, but the idea is that you buy a place, you fix it up, you rent it out, and then it’s worth more, so you refinance it, do a cash-out refinance at the bank. And then you pull that cash out of the deal, and you can repeat the process. And the advantage of that method is that you preserve your capital. So if I saved up $50,000, let’s just say, and went and dropped that as a 25% down payment on an investment property, that’s great. And I’ve got a property in hand. But now I have no money to do the next deal. And I have to go start saving that all up again. And that’s actually what we did for our very first deal was we went out and we bought a basically a turnkey property for our very first investment property. And that was great except that, again, there was nowhere to go from there. We had $0 in the bank for the next one. And so it became a process of looking for a way to do the BRRRR method. And that way we could start preserving that capital. And so that was where this flip idea came from. And really, we’ve been following that process ever since.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And I know one of the conversations you and I have had on more than one occasion is the balance between paying off student loans and investing. And as I’ve shared on the show before, this is probably the most common question I get if we’re doing a session where we’re speaking on various topics: “Hey, should I be paying off my student loans or should I be investing?” And here, we’re obviously talking about real estate investing, which is just one pathway, one route of investing. But I sense that many other listeners are weighing this same decision, whether it’s real estate investing or more traditional investing, you know, how do I find this balance between paying off my student loans and ultimately beginning to save and invest for the future in whatever way that looks like. So how did you and Kristen reconcile and decide to move forward with your real estate investing plans while still working through your student loan debt?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah. And like you said, I think you said it perfectly. It’s a balance. It’s all about finding that balance and finding the risk tolerance and the comfortability that works for you. I think it’s very easy to sit back and look at the $100,000-200,000 in debt that most of our pharmacy friends here have and say, ‘I can’t possibly think about anything else right now. I’ve got to tackle that.’ But what we basically have done is we’ve really worked on getting those loans refinanced down to a very, very low level. I think my loans today sit at just under 3% —

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Nate Hedrick: — which if you look at — yeah, it’s fantastic. And I’ve refinanced them I think five times through — actually, most of those times through YFP. So thank you for all of the bonuses.

Tim Ulbrich: You might beat Tim Church soon, yeah, on the refinance record.

Nate Hedrick: I’m close. I’m close. And the idea being that if you can get that interest rate, at least in my opinion, if you can get that interest rate down low enough, you’re basically matching inflation at some point. And so it’s not free money, but it’s about as close as you can get. And so what we feel comfortable doing was get those loans to a manageable amount, get them to a payoff monthly that we could really feel comfortable handling, and then once that interest rate was low enough, now you start to look at, OK, well if I put $1,000 onto that loan or I put $1,000 into an investment, whether that be an investment property, a stock, whatever, which of those two strategies builds your net worth faster and makes you feel better at the end of the day? Because a lot of it comes down to can you sleep at night if you have these outstanding loans? And so while we’re very aggressively working on paying down those loans, we just have different buckets of money that we’re allocating our extra resources to. And a lot of those happen to be on the investment property side.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And I think we should, you know, put out there that when we talk about finding this right balance, you know, from my perspective, we’re doing it under the assumption that one is doing their homework, understanding the risk, understanding the upside. We’re obviously going to talk about an opportunity here that you’ve invested in and others that we have featured on the show that have had good outcomes. But that certainly can be good, cannot be good, depending on a lot of different factors. And so finding that balance, finding what you’re comfortable with, making sure you’re feeling confident in what you’ve learned in that process, finding good mentors, all things that we’ve talked about before on the show, are really important as you’re dabbling really in any part of your financial plan but here, as we talk about investing in real estate. So let’s dig into the flipping experience in more detail. So tell us about this particular opportunity. Where was the property? How much was the purchase price? Tell us about kind of the square footage, the bedrooms, and what you’re working with as you got that property under your name.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, great. So we actually — so as many of our listeners know, I live in Cleveland, Ohio. And so we had previously been looking to purchase our investment properties here. Well, the market’s actually really good in Cleveland for investors. And so it’s actually been ticking up year over year. And so it’s becoming more difficult to find a good BRRRR property here. And again, that our goal, right? We could go out and buy a property with a big down payment and 25% down and so on, but we wanted to BRRRR a property. And so I started reaching out to some pharmacists around the country that I know were in the investing space, had a couple different conversations with a couple different partners — and actually, Tim, you and I were involved in some of those discussions, which was great.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Nate Hedrick: And connected with a partner up in Michigan. And we were able to talk to them about, you know, the properties that are going on in Michigan and what they were doing from an investing perspective, and basically when I looked at it, it felt very much like Cleveland, but everything was half price. And this particular area was set up where it was still kind of hitting that resurgence, it’s still a bit early I think to call this area kind of up-and-coming. It’s on its way. But that actually made it a good target for us because we could get in on a much lower price point, we could fix the property up for a lot less and still accomplish that goal of achieving a BRRRR without needing to have $100,000 in the bank.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Nate Hedrick: So when we looked at that, we said, this kind of fits all of our criteria, we think that the upside is there from an appreciation standpoint, properties can cash flow, we looked at all the different parameters that I think are important in assessing a location for investment properties. And then we just happened to get kind of lucky on finding a good deal. We got this deal through a wholesaler. The — I don’t mind sharing we bought the house for $8,000.

Tim Ulbrich: Say what?

Nate Hedrick: If you had asked me before I started as a real estate investor if you could buy a house for that cheap, I would have said, “No, that’s like a car. You’re talking about a car.” But no, we bought this house for $8,000. And it’s a 3-bedroom, 1-bath. It’s about 1,400 square feet. Little single family with two bedrooms upstairs, one bedroom downstairs. And it was an absolute disaster, as you can probably imagine. And we can get into the details, but yeah. It was worth $8,000 when we bought it. It was pretty bad.

Tim Ulbrich: And Nate, you know, someone who is listening — and I know early on and I certainly still consider myself very much a newbie in this space. And I look at a property like that — and we’ll talk more about the numbers about what it’s currently valued at for rent and all those types of things. And our listeners will hear a huge margin between $8,000 and where it’s currently valued. And I think people might look at that number and be like, why would somebody even sell that if they saw the opportunity themselves? Why wouldn’t they do the rehab? Why wouldn’t they flip it or hold onto it and rent it? So tell us a little bit more about that wholesaling relationship and ultimately why a wholesaler would want to pass this on if you look at this as a good investment opportunity. Why wouldn’t they just keep it themselves?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, yeah. Great question. I think it varies a lot depending on the individual. In some cases, you’ve got someone that either has paid — they can’t afford their mortgage any longer, they can’t afford their taxes anymore, they’re simply looking to offload that property so they can get their finances back under control. Or you’ve got someone that either a family member passes away and now you’ve got a different family member trying to take care of a property, and they’re just trying to settle the estate, they’re not interested in becoming a real estate investor, they just want to get rid of this property. This particular property had — the person had actually moved down with family down south and basically abandoned it. They had zero interest in taking care of it any longer. And I really don’t think they had the ability to do much with it, quite honestly. So it sat there for a long time. As we’ll talk about, it had some interesting problems inside. But it sat there for awhile. And basically, they just said, “I want to get rid of this. Here’s what I need to pay off my mortgage, and here’s where I’m at.” And that was it.

Tim Ulbrich: And I don’t want to miss too — and I know you can speak to the value of the relationships, of the networking, of the partnerships, but as you told the story — and I’m sure many people outside of Ohio would look at maybe even a Cleveland market and be like, please, can I get a deal at those prices. And obviously you’re looking at numbers a little bit differently and saying, OK, Cleveland is going up — and of course we’re talking about relative to other markets — Cleveland is going up, and here’s another opportunity out of area, out of state, which to some listening may feel very uncomfortable if they haven’t had experience with doing out-of-area, out-of-state investing. And one of the things that really jumps out to me with this example is the value of having good partnerships, having a good network of folks that can help not only identify some of these opportunities but also that may be an expert in that local area or market and can give you some assurance on other experience that they’ve had as it is perhaps an uncomfortable territory. So tell us about that part of the journey. Was that an uncomfortable pathway for you and Kristen in terms of out-of-area investing? And how did you ultimately say, hey, it’s worth it even if we can’t see it or put our finger on it. For me, I was surprised at how easy it was to invest out of state. I think one of the things that helped was that we had previously purchased an investment property. So I walked through it, understood what that looked like. It’s a very non-emotional decision. And so it’s much, much easier to look at the numbers, look at the math, talk to the contractors and kind of make a decision based on that. You don’t have to walk in it because you’re never going to be living there. And so that made it a bit easier. Again, it also really helped that we had awesome partners and boots on the ground that could really help with that. I think no matter where you’re investing, whether it’s two streets away from you or two states away from you, you need to have that awesome partnership and have those people that can actually give you the real information that you need unless you yourself are that expert. So again, if I’m buying a house here in Cleveland, I don’t even use a real estate agent. I represent myself because I can be that expert in this area. But if I was buying anywhere else, I’d have to have all those experts anyway. And so this wasn’t that different just having those people in place.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I would recommend too — we’ll link to it in the show notes — but Bigger Pockets, among the many resources they have, they have a book on out-of-area investing that I found very helpful and insightful just getting you to think about it but also the importance of some of the systems and the processes and how to ultimately be able to manage and invest in opportunities that may not necessarily be in your backyard. So let’s dig into the five key lessons that you learned along the way. And again, so we’ll link to this in the show notes your article that you published on this at Real Estate RPH so folks can read more and check out the other content that you also have out there, which is fantastic. So five key lessons that you learned along the way through this flipping experience: No. 1, run your numbers carefully. So tell us more about this and really why it’s so important and ultimately the strategies you used here for your first flip.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah. So just like we talked about, it’s a business decision when you’re buying investment property. This is not an emotional, ‘Oh, I don’t know if I like that kitchen,’ like, whatever. It doesn’t matter. You need to run your numbers and focus on those, which some people might really like because if you’re a data person, if you’re an analytical person, this actually makes it really easy. So like I mentioned, we were trying to use the BRRRR method to flip this property and then rent it out. And one of the things that the BRRRR method really focuses on is when you do that cash out refinance, the goal is to pull all of your investing money back out, right? You want to be able to recycle that capital. And so what most lenders will do is they’ll give you a loan at 75% loan-to-value or LTV. And that 75% loan is based on the after-repair value, or the ARV. Sorry, we’re throwing all these acronyms at you. But the idea is that you want to buy a property, fix it up, rent it out, and then it needs to be worth a certain amount of money so that 75% of that amount is more than or equal to the amount of money that you invested.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Nate Hedrick: So if you’re buying a property and let’s say it’s $100,000 when it’s all said and done, and you’re going to refinance that $100,000, getting $75,000 from the bank. You can’t spend more than $75,000 to buy that property, fix it all up, pass all your permitting, all that stuff needs to be done for under $75,000. So the numbers are actually fairly easy. We actually went out and had an appraiser come out to the house — actually before we bought it. And we said, “Look, if we did all of this work,” and we laid out really detailed notes about here are the things that we’re going to do in the kitchen, here’s how the bathroom’s going to look, here’s how the flooring. We actually provided pictures from other flips that my partner had done. And we said, “Look, if we do all of this work, what do you think it will be worth based on the market conditions, based on the property size and all that?” And once we had that number, we were able to start working backwards and say, “OK, 75% of that number is this. That’s how much we can spend. Let’s see if this deal makes sense.”

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. So you mentioned, let’s get more specific about this deal. And obviously we’ll use round numbers, not a perfect calculation. But you mentioned buying it from the wholesaler for $8,000, you mentioned getting that up front estimated after-repair value, that appraisal, and then obviously you had the investment to actually do the work. And then of course there’s a reality of what that appraisal may come in and ultimately when you do that cash out refinance, which you’re not yet there, right? That six-month window, you’re still waiting on that?

Nate Hedrick: Yep, we’re getting close. So basically the end of December is when we’ll be eligible, so we’ll probably refinance around then or beginning of January.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow, that went quick.

Nate Hedrick: I know. I was thinking the same thing the other day. I’m almost behind at this point because I haven’t started the process yet. I’ve talked to some lenders, but it’s not there yet.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. So if you bought it for $8,000, talk us through then if your goal as the investor is to try to get as much or perhaps all of that cash back out so as you mentioned at the beginning of the show, you can go ahead and do this again — and we should clarify here, you mentioned the 75% loan-to-value. If you accomplish that and you get all of your cash back, you still essentially — obviously you have a mortgage on that property, but you have essentially 25% equity in that deal. So you know, we’re not talking about leveraging full tilt here. You still would have some margin if the market were to flip or go down. So you have a little bit of wiggle room. So talk us through the numbers here and whether or not you’re able to accomplish that or come close.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, and I really like — that’s a good point because I think a lot of people look at this, and they go, oh, you’re overleveraging like crazy. But you’re right. We still have 25% equity in that house once that refinance is done. And so I feel really confident that that’s a comfortable place to be. That’s like buying a house with 25% down payment, which is more than most people do. So yeah. We’re going to feel good about that. So the house itself was $8,000. Then there was a wholesaler fee, a sizeable wholesaler fee. We’ll call that several thousand dollars. And so that’s basically a finder’s fee for the wholesaler. And these can vary anywhere from — I’ve seen them as low as $1,000. And I’ve seen them as high as $25,000 on some deals. Where basically that wholesaler is saying, “I found this deal for $8,000. And I’ll let you buy it for $8,000, but you’re going to pay me some amount to basically give you that great deal.” So we had to pay the wholesaler’s fee on top of that. And then once we got the appraisal done, they were looking at this, and they said, “We think that based on the level of rehab that you’re going to do and the properties in the area and so on, we think that the house will be worth around $75,000 when all was said and done.”

Tim Ulbrich: Wow. OK.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, which is great. Now, again, this place was utter trash when we purchased it. So there’s a lot of work to be done, but what we looked at that and said, “OK. Well if we’ve got $75,000 of potential property value, 75% of that is about $56,000.”

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Nate Hedrick: So there’s a lot of room in there for us to start making some rehab decisions and finding a way to make ends meet.

Tim Ulbrich: So on this deal — and again, I’m oversimplifying a little bit here, Nate, but to follow the numbers — you buy is for $8,000, you have a wholesaler’s fee, a finder’s fee, and then you’re looking at that $8,000 plus the wholesaler’s fee and then any margin or really room up until that 75% number, $56,000, as your number of when you look at estimating rehab costs and other things, and obviously things could go better than you expect, things could go worse, you’re trying to anticipate where that may or may not go, making sure you have margin. But as long as you stay under that $56,000 number, if that appraisal holds around $75,000, and you do a cash-out refinance at 75% loan-to-value, you essentially that whole $56,000 back out of the deal and get all of the money back. Is that simple math? Am I following correctly?

Nate Hedrick: Yep. You’re spot on. That’s exactly the goal, and that’s how we went into it.

Tim Ulbrich: OK. So you know, one of the other things that I know I think about as I hear you talk about this, I’m sure our listeners are, is hey, Nate, I’m a pharmacist. Like I have no idea how to estimate rehab costs. So this is great as you’re talking, OK, I get the property for $8,000, I pay a wholesaler fee, I get all that. But I can look at a property, I can say, eh, good, not so good, maybe really bad, not as bad, really good, not so good, but that’s the — my Lichert scale ends there, right? I don’t have much differentiation of what I can define in terms of how much is needed or certainly things that may be seen versus unseen. So how do you as an investor either estimate those costs or make sure you’re working with the right people that can help you get a good estimate on what those costs will be?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, I’ll be honest with you, I’m also fairly terrible at estimating rehab costs. I walk around with my clients as a regular real estate agent, and they say, “Nate, this looks broken. Any way — like what would it take do this?” I have no idea, we should ask a contractor. And that’s what we really did with this property is I trusted my team more than anything.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Nate Hedrick: And we built that, again, based on a lot of relationships and based on past experience. I was able to talk with the individuals that I work with and seen that they had done this work before. And so when we actually let our contractor walk that place, they were able to say, “Look, I think based on everything you’ve got going for you and all these unknowns that we still have, let’s start working out budget details.” And we really took it line item-by-line item to really break down everything that was going to go into those costs that we could feel good about our offer and feel good about how much we were going to be potentially spending.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. OK. Great stuff. So that’s No. 1, run your numbers carefully. And I just want to echo here too, you know, one of the things I know that really resonated with me early on with the very limited experience I have is the importance of really trusting and running your numbers. And I think it’s easy to look at something like a property that is $8,000 and then you look at wholesale fee and you’re like, what the heck? The deal’s only $8,000, why is the wholesale fee, you know, whatever that amount is? As you mentioned, there could be a big range. But run the numbers. I mean, ultimately, you’ve got to figure out like is that justified or not? And you know, obviously that person needs to be paid for the work that they’ve done in finding that deal. But if the numbers make sense, they make sense. If they don’t make sense, then you move on, you know? And I think that’s really part of the value of having a system to be able to run your numbers.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, don’t get hung up on how much they’re making on the deal.

Tim Ulbrich: Exactly.

Nate Hedrick: I have seen deals with other investors where the wholesale fee is more than the purchase price of the property. And that feels like what the heck, this doesn’t make any sense. Why are they making more money than I’m buying the house for? But again, without them, you don’t have a deal to work on. So it’s not something to get hung up on. You’ve got to focus on the final numbers.

Tim Ulbrich: Alright. No. 2 is plan for something to go wrong. And oh boy, do you have some examples here with this property. So you know, tell us about why this is important for plan for something to go wrong both financially as well as maybe just your sanity. And you know, what went wrong with this deal? And how did you plan for it?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, so this is something that, again, I really underestimated in my head what this was going to look like. I think we’ve all watched flipping shows on TV, and all like — again, I’ve read all the books, I thought I knew everything. And so when we walked into this property, I was like, OK, we’ve got to estimate all these rehab costs, and then we’ll set aside $2,000 for that thing that goes wrong. And really, again, really leaned into my partner on this one. And he said, “Look, with all of the unknowns that we have, we need to set aside a considerable amount of change for a potential problem to come up.” And so just to start giving you some real numbers, we originally budgeted I think around $25,000-30,000 for the full rehab. And then on top of that, we added an $8,000 contingency plan, which is a huge chunk. I mean, that’s like a third basically of our budget almost as a what-could-go-wrong factor. And to me, that felt really large and I was like, man, we’re never going to need that $8,000. That’s even bonus money as far as I’m concerned. But again, my partner was like, “Look, set it aside, put it in the numbers. Trust me. If we need it, you’re going to be so happy you did that up front.” And again, I learned a lot from that because I wouldn’t have set aside $8,000. And I’ll tell you, by the end of the deal, we ended up using about $6,000 of that entire contingency budget. So it’s a really good thing I listened to him and set that extra money aside when running the numbers. So we had a couple things that — a couple different things to go wrong. And actually one that I didn’t even get to put in the article because it happened early last month, so about a month ago. So I’ll tell you about that in a minute. But there was a number of issues, and I put them all in my article, but one of the biggest ones that I think was really surprising to me was that there was trash all over this house. I mean, like hoarder level trash up the walls and everywhere. And so there was a lot of unknowns what was under that garbage. And as we moved all that junk out and had actually the cleaning crews come in and take care of everything, realized that the walls and the floors themselves had been rotting underneath that stuff. There were entire areas where you could see from one room to another through the wall that had basically fallen apart. And so we did not anticipate that level of damage down that far. And so almost all the walls had to be removed, replaced, patched. We spent over $4,000 more on our budget for walls than we were anticipating. And again, that’s just one of those things that you don’t know it until you get in there, really. And that became kind of a bigger problem than we anticipated.

Tim Ulbrich: And if I remember correctly, that was the major thing. But you had other things that maybe folks here would be like, it is major, but obviously in the perspective of what you just mentioned, relative to that. So you had quite the issues with fleas.

Nate Hedrick: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: And even some more minor things that may not be expected, which is having crews available to paint and the heat of the summer, not being able to stay as long as you thought they would, and that delayed some of the timeline, which of course time is money when you’re talking about these types of opportunities. So collectively, as you went through that as a first-time, were you shocked? Surprised? Was it a, ‘it is what it is’? Or did having that partner involved also help reassure of hey, I’ve been through these before and it stinks, but it’s not the end of the world?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, I think, again, that’s the whole point of this kind of point 2 here is plan for those things to go wrong. That way you’re not going to be surprised. I think every time I got a call from my partner and said, “Hey, here’s what’s going on on the property this week,” it wasn’t like, oh no, now the whole deal is ruined. We really felt like, well, that’s awful. But we’ve planned for it, let’s move forward and get it fixed. The biggest, like the nagging — you mentioned the fleas. That problem drove me absolutely bonkers. I was so upset with that. It was one of those things where, again, I planned for a problem. But I didn’t plan for it to be so hard to fix, right? LIke everything else I can throw a little bit of money at it and it goes away. This took two different exterminators, four separate treatments, two weeks of no job time. We actually had a fifth treatment after all that was said and done to make sure that when the new tenants moved in, they felt really comfortable with the whole place and it was absolutely bug-free. It was only I think — all said and done, I think it was like $600 for all of that, which is not that big in the grand scheme of things, but it was the biggest hassle to get that fixed.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Nate Hedrick: And it just, it was the problem that would not go away.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think if I remember, I had a similar issue with another property, and it was not as much on the cost side but just the coordination and then the time where if they’re coming in to spray and that you’re coordinating with other people working in the home, there has to be some space there as they’re doing their work. So more of a nuance, right, then anything. And of course you want the new people to feel comfortable as well.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah. That was big for us too, right? Like we wanted to provide really nice housing for somebody. And I don’t know about you, but I am not moving into a place that has fleas. And so we wanted to be 100% certain that we had completely taken care of the problem and that we had something in place that if anything did come back, we had a very fast action plan to basically mitigate that going forward. So we did a lot of work to make sure that was taken care of. And again, it was just a pain to get it all done.

Tim Ulbrich: Alright. No. 3, it’s not like HGTV. So talk to us about what you mean here.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, so again, I think it’s really for us to watch all the flipping shows and get this idea of you buy a property, you put in the highest end everything, you make it camera-ready, and then you make money and it’s easy. And I think when Kristen and I went into this, we were very quick to look at the kitchen, look at the bathroom, and say, “Oh yeah, we’ve got to do a tile backsplash, we really want to upgrade this to elevate this rental to be like the best in this area.” And again, talking to our partner, talking to our contractor, we quickly realized that if you follow the HGTV plan, you’re probably going to blow your budget. There are absolutely areas where it makes sense to do that and put in everything as high end as possible, but you’ve got to look at your market. Again, we bought an $8,000 house. I can’t spend $8,000 on tile for the backsplash. That doesn’t make any sense. So we really had to kind of reign ourselves in — and I think I put in the article, the goal is to make it the nicest house on the block, not the nicest house in the city. So really trying to kind of take off the HGTV lens and move it onto OK, what makes sense for a rental? What’s going to get us the best return on investment? And what’s going to make this a really comfortable, safe place for that person to live? One of the examples of this that I think kind of exemplifies what we were looking to do, we actually had bought — we wanted all stainless steel appliances, right? Kitchens and bathrooms sell, so that made sense for us. We wanted all stainless steel appliances, upgraded kitchen. And we actually went out and bought some of these through the 4th of July sale at Home Depot at the time. So we said, “Great. We got this deal.” Well, COVID shut the world down, obviously, over the summer. And that delayed pretty much everything coming overseas, which most of these appliances were. And there was a huge backlog on appliances basically all summer long. And we got to the point where we were at the end of July, we were trying to get this place rent-ready. And the appliances kept getting pushed back. I would get a phone call every other week, and they would delay them by another week and another week and another week, and it was just, it was getting so frustrating. And so we said, “Look, these are going to be things that don’t allow us to rent the house. We’re not going to have a kitchen for anyone to go into.” So we actually had to pivot and start looking for some local deals on some appliances. And unfortunately, we weren’t able to find the stainless steel that we wanted. Now, we got really nice, high end appliances that were in great condition, but they’re not that, again, HGTV look that I think we were going for. And we had to get over that. We had to get past that and say, “Look, this is a really nice, functional kitchen. And it probably doesn’t truly hurt our rent value, quite honestly.” It might hurt our refinance a little bit because it’s not nearly as nice as the house that has the stainless steel, but it’s still going to accomplish our goals, and we’ve got to be OK with that. And it took some time to be able to pivot and make that mindset change.

Tim Ulbrich: Good stuff. And No. 4 here is preparing multiple exit strategies. And I really appreciated this being able to be a fly on the wall with you and your partner in this deal, to hear this conversation, to hear the two of you talk about the importance of exit strategies and having options and why that is so important. So tell us about how you viewed the exit strategies and also how you think about this more broadly as you’re investing in a property.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, so one of the things that’s been drilled into my head listening to Bigger Pockets and reading about investing strategy and so on is that you always want to go into an investment with multiple exit strategies, whatever that looks like. If you’re buying a place to flip it, you should make sure the numbers also work as a rental. Conversely, if you’re buying a place as a buy-and-hold, you should make sure that it works as an Airbnb or something else, right? You want to make sure that it has a secondary plan in case what you were intending goes wrong. And so when we got into this house, we said, well, we actually need to have at least two exit strategies. And we actually developed three throughout the course of this plan. And so when we walked into it, we say, we can either buy it and hold this place, do the BRRRR method like we intended to, or the market is so hot right now, we should look at this as a potential flip opportunity as well. And so we really went into the deal with those two mindsets. Like this is either going to be a flip or it’s going to be a buy-and-hold BRRRR. And up until — we were probably halfway through the rehab and we still hadn’t really decided what made more sense. And at that point, we said, we’ve got to talk about this and figure out the plan. And we developed another plan. We said, well, we’re halfway through. We’ve gotten done with all of the big, scary stuff, right? Like the roof had been looked at, the furnace, all the big, scary stuff had been taken care of, all the trash had been moved out and so on. And we said, this place is pretty ready to go. It’s not fixed up by any stretch, but it’s ready to go. And so we looked at the idea of potentially selling it as what I call a prehab.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Nate Hedrick: Which is where you’ve gone in, you’ve bought it for a certain price, you’ve fixed it up to a point where it’s very saleable to somebody who wants to come in and finish the work. And so we thought, you know, if we can find an investor that’s interested in buying this at this stage, we might still be able to turn a pretty nice profit and then not have to worry about the inspections and the permitting and all the stuff that comes at the end. So we even at one point had three exit strategies. Obviously we eventually decided to follow the BRRRR method, and we have a renter in there right now and all that. But throughout the course, we allowed ourselves to have other strategies and exit opportunities just in case they made sense at some point. It really made sure that we limited our risk and opened up our potential for opportunities.

Tim Ulbrich: And what are you looking for, Nate, for if you’re considering, hey, am I going to flip this or am I going to hold this and follow kind of the BRRRR method we’ve been talking about? What are some of the factors that are helping you make that decision?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, gosh, that’s a — there’s a lot, right? So for us —

Tim Ulbrich: Another episode?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, it’s another episode. No, it’s a great question, though. For us, it came down to look, if we’re going to spend all this time, effort, risk, money, we have to get a significant amount of return on it. And so if I’m putting in — again, I talked about almost $40,000 on a rehab, that’s a sizable risk. And we took a lot of risk to get there, right? We bought an $8,000 trash property. It better be something that we get something out of at the end. And so when we were assessing it, we said, look, if we can get to a flipping profit that is significant enough to justify that risk, then maybe it’s worthwhile. The other thing that I looked at is that, again, this market, I really want to be involved in this market. I want to hold property there. We’re already starting to talk about our next deal in the area. And so I was very set on trying to retain this property if that made sense in any stretch. And so again, the process was simply evaluate the potential for return and weight that against the risk that was put in and the amount of capital that was put in up front to get to that level of return. And again, it just became a business decision, which made more sense?

Tim Ulbrich: Good stuff. And No. 5 here is trust your team. And this is something we’ve talked about on previous episodes, building a team that you can trust and obviously that being an important part of this discussion as you’re building your real estate investment portfolio. So tell us about your team, what did it look like, how did you find those people, and what’s your advice for people that are looking to create their own team?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, and I think we’ve talked about this a bit as we’ve gone through. It really started with that partner and making sure that I had somebody that was boots on the ground that could help us get coordination. Because from that partner came the contractors, that came the real estate agent, actually. We worked with that partner as well to find property managers that they recommended, and so I was able to interview property managers based on their recommendations. And then that property manager, again, kind of bringing in the real estate agent piece, they were able to recommend some people along the way for various things from title to making sure that the permitting was done correctly. And then of course, we had — on kind of my end — we had the insurance agent, I had to make sure that we got this all properly insured and under umbrella policies and all that other stuff. We had to bring in our financial planner and our accountant. Actually, I got to call up Tim Baker and Paul over at YFP and say, look, guys, here’s what we’re doing. And Paul had to get his extra notebooks out for me because I always bug him with weird questions. But we said, look, this is what we’re trying to do. Help us work through this, make sure it’s going to make sense for our financial plan personally. So all those different people are really essential and finding each one varies based on where you’re doing this, what you’re doing specifically, and what your needs are. But a lot of it starts with kind of that one person on the ground. And again, in our case, it was that partner. In most cases, it’s usually going to be your real estate agent or your property manager. And so if you are looking for a place either out of state or even locally, I really recommend starting with that solid real estate agent, that person that understands investment property because they’re going to be the one that’s going to connect you with all the people that you need. And that’s really, really essential.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes, so important for the reasons you mentioned, having a good team in place, have the right people in your corner. I was just talking with a pharmacist real estate investor in North Carolina this past week, and one of the things he shared was as they are still relatively early in their journey — I think they’ve got 3 or 4 deals now under their belt — what they’re finding is as they have continued on that journey, they’ve identified other folks, and as they’ve identified other folks, one of whom had become a partner, that that had then brought other opportunities that were now coming to them. And you hear this all the time on Bigger Pockets where people say, you know, once you get momentum and you show that you’re a good investor and you do things the right way, ultimately, these relationships will start to take off and you often find that deals start coming your way, which really puts you in a different position, obviously, to be able to grow and scale the work that you are doing. So there you have it, five key lessons that Nate learned along the way of this investment property. No. 1, run your numbers carefully. No. 2, plan for something to go wrong. No. 3, it’s not like HGTV. No. 4, prepare multiple exit strategies. And No. 5, trust your team. And again, we’ll link to that article that he posted on his blog over at Real Estate RPH so you can check out the show notes at YourFinancialPharmacist.com/podcast, find this week’s episode, and you’ll see that information there. Nate, one of the notes I made as you were talking was there had to be a lot of time invested here. So talk to us about you’ve got a young family, you’ve got a full-time job. Like you’ve got other things going on. So give us a sense of the time commitment and ultimately how you justify that time as you looked at this opportunity.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, just like most of my side hustle life, it’s a lot of early mornings and late nights. So again, it was funny. I think every morning early, I got up and had emails going out for all of the real estate activity that I’ve got going on. But this was one of them. And then every night kind of the same thing. And again, by having the proper people in place, the partner, the contractors, you know, all the people that are actually doing all the work, I mean, I’ll be honest, I’ve never — I have yet to set foot in this property. And I don’t know that I ever will. There’s no need to because I’ve got people on the ground that can do that kind of work. And so the time invested for me is actually not that extensive. It’s really just decision-making time and then letting those decisions play out through the professionals that we’ve put in place. So you know, it was decisions with Kristen and discussion with Kristen at night, sending out an email, sending a follow-up email in the morning, usually. And then that was pretty much the whole day. The worst thing was if I had a phone call over lunch or something to talk through an issue with our contractor or whatever. But that’s about as much as was necessary. I think if you put the right systems in place, you’d be surprised how much little time is actually required to do all this work.

Tim Ulbrich: Well good stuff as always, Nate. And we appreciate you having you back on the show. And I’m sure it won’t be the last time. And appreciate you giving us kind of the inside look into your own person journey and your willingness to be transparent with that and certainly to share that information to be able to help others that are evaluating this as an opportunity in their own personal financial plan. So what’s the best way for our listeners to connect with you if they want more information about your journey or perhaps they’re also interested in the Real Estate RPH-YFP concierge service.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, absolutely. Head on over to RealEstateRPH.com. You can actually find me, I’m all over your site too, Tim, on YFP. But Real Estate RPH, you can find us. Get connected with our concierge service. That’s actually the best way to get in touch. You can schedule a 30-minute phone call with me. We can talk about investing, we can get you hooked up with an agent, whatever you might need. That’s the best way to reach out to me. And then of course I’m on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. Just find me there.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff. And for those that are looking to buy a home, if you go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com, you’ll see a section at the top called “Buy or Refi a Home.” From there, you’ll see an option to connect with an agent. That will take you to Nate and the concierge service. So the whole intent of that is to really be able to utilize Nate’s experiences as both a pharmacist as well as an agent as well as an investor here as we’re talking about, really to be someone that can help you along that process, that can pair you up with a trusted local agent in your market, and ultimately be there alongside of you throughout the journey. And so I think that is an important aspect and value of that service. And again, you can learn more at YourFinancialPharmacist.com, click “Buy or Refi a Home,” and then “Find an Agent,” and you’ll get to Nate’s information there. As always, to our YFP community, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode, please leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show each and every week. And I hope you’ll join us if you haven’t already in the Your Financial Pharmacist Facebook group. Over 7,000 pharmacy professionals committed to helping one another on their path towards achieving financial freedom. So thank you again all for joining, and have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 174: How to Evaluate Employer Benefits During Open Enrollment

Posted on by yfpadmin

How to Evaluate Employer Benefits During Open Enrollment

Tim Baker and Tim Ulbrich discuss how to best evaluate your employer benefits as you get ready to make selections during open enrollment.

Summary

On this podcast episode Tim and Tim discuss open enrollment for pharmacists and how to evaluate employer benefits during this period. They discuss health, life and disability insurance, retirement plans and HSA and FSA accounts. As a YFP financial planning client, a CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™ works with you to understand your benefits and choose the options that work best for you and your financial plan.

Tim Baker explains that pricing for medical plans can vary greatly depending on factors like age, location, tobacco use, whether the plan is for an individual or family and the plan category (i.e. bronze, silver, gold, platinum). When it comes to deciding which plan is going to work best for your needs, Tim suggests choosing a plan that will match your use best and to not pay for a more expensive premium if the coverage isn’t being used. Similarly, if you don’t have an adequate emergency fund, it may not be wise to pick a high deductible health plan (HDHP). Tim shares that you have to think about your life plan, age, whether you have pre-existing conditions and how often you’ll need to go to the doctor when deciding on a health plan.

When it comes to life and disability insurance, Tim suggests having coverage if you have a spouse or a family that’s reliant on your income. However, life or disability insurance offered by your employer may not be sufficient. If that is the case, you’ll have to look into purchasing additional coverage. Tim also discusses employee sponsored retirement options like a 401(k), 403(b), or TSP as well as stock options, FSA and HSA accounts.

As we are in or nearing the open enrollment period for many pharmacists, Tim recommends taking a look at what’s being provided or offered by your employer, asking your HR department for help and being intentional with your decisions as these benefits are an often overlooked part of a financial plan.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker, excited to have you back on the show.

Tim Baker: Yeah, thanks for having me. It’s been a long time since I’ve been on I think a full episode.

Tim Ulbrich: So today, we’re talking all about evaluating employer benefits, navigating open enrollment. Obviously the goal is to provide that information heading into that season. So Tim Baker, you talk with our financial planning clients at YFP Planning about evaluating and understanding the employer benefits. So why is this an important part of the financial plan and something that needs to be covered among other topics?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think there’s really two different ways to look at it. You can look at it as like a new hire to a company and evaluating the compensation package in total, so you know, basically salary and all the other benefits that come with the offer, versus kind of your in the company and you’re just evaluating the package that comes up for open enrollment every year. I think we’ll probably focus more on the latter. But I think this is really important. And I sometimes see this with clients or kind of after the fact with clients where they’re like, “Hey, I was making $120,000 per year. And I got this offer to make $130,000 or $135,000.” But then when you actually dig into like what they are moving to in terms of like a new 401k or match or a bonus or the health insurances that are provided, the plans that are provided, you have to dig a little deeper because they potentially take a step back in a lot of ways that are not just tied to the paycheck. I think it’s important, again, to look at this in totality. But I think it’s also — especially when we talk about health insurance, this is most definitely a plan. And you want a plan in place for the purposes of health insurance. When we get into talking things about life insurance and disability, I kind of view that as more as a perk. So not necessarily a plan — and we’ll kind of talk about the difference there. So yeah, super important because what we talk about at YFP, our mission is to empower pharmacists to achieve financial freedom. When I kind of speak day-to-day with clients with their particular financial plan, we go a little bit more granular. Our job is to help grow and protect income, which is the lifeblood of the financial plan, grow and protect net worth, which is essentially what sticks while keeping your goals in mind. So a big part of this of what we’re talking about is the protection. And you know, if you have a health incident or a disability and things like that, we want to make sure that we’re properly protected so some type of catastrophic event doesn’t get in our way. And that’s kind of what this is really all about.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and as you mentioned, Tim, we will focus more on the side of those that are post-accepting that position, they’re either recently employed with that company, trying to make that selection as a part of onboarding or probably for most of our listeners, going through the open enrollment season as they look out to the New Year. But Episode 166, when you and I talked about why negotiation is an important part of the financial plan, we did talk about some of these components as potential differentiators or at least things to consider as you’re evaluating an offer and how these are the things that you will start to see some significant variance, perhaps from one offer to the next and so why it’s important to look just beyond that salary. So Tim, whether someone is reviewing their benefits for the first time, again, after accepting a new position or probably for most of us, going through another round yet again of open enrollment, there’s lots of benefits that are connected to the financial plan that one needs to consider. And we’re going to talk about health, life, vision, dental to a lesser degree, and disability, and of course, retirement accounts and HSAs. So we’ve talked about each of these on the podcast at one point or another. But this is another example where we try to bring various parts of the financial plan, take a step back and look at some of these components in its entirety and how they can impact one another. So let’s start with health insurance. And again, I don’t want to spend as much time on dental and vision as I think in my experience, there’s not necessarily a whole lot of option here. And typically, the price tag is smaller, of course, than you’ll see on the medical side. So Tim, why does medical coverage pricing vary so much? And I’m sure that’s something we’ll talk about, the variance that’s there. And talk to us about some of the key pieces that our listeners should be thinking about as they’re evaluating the medical coverage.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think the big driver in why health insurances are different and differently priced across companies is the law states that there are really five things that account for when setting premiums. One is age, so there’s a stat that says premiums can be up to three times higher for older people versus younger. It could be location, so that could be a big thing. I know when we were introducing health insurance, we have employees that work all over the country. And every state has different rules and local rules, and cost of living can also account for this. One of the things, which is kind of interesting to me — and I understand why but things like tobacco use, so insurance can charge tobacco users up to 50% more, some other of those sin activities maybe not necessarily accounted for, individual versus family enrollment, so you can charge more obviously if it covers for a spouse or a dependent. And then probably the big thing is like the plan category.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: And I think you want to have I think choice. But you have different categories, and these are typically based on kind of your out-of-pockets versus what the insurance company is paying. And these range anywhere from the bronze, which are typically the high deductible health plans that are typically kept coupled with HSAs, silver, gold, platinum. So these are the different levels that you typically see. Not all companies are going to offer every level. They might offer one or two or even three, but typically, again, the bronze plans usually have lower monthly premiums and higher out-of-pocket costs where platinum are typically higher premiums with lower out-of-pocket. So the insurance for the platinum covers a lot more. But you’re paying more out of your paycheck. So those are typically why we see varying — and I think just with going on with healthcare is everything, it seems like it’s becoming more expensive. And there’s a lot of stats that this is one of the highest — you know, we talk about student loans and things like that. But healthcare is definitely up there with regard to, you know, the inflation of it year after year.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, point well taken, Tim, on that. I know many business owners feel that. In my experience on the academic side, a couple occasions I’ve been involved in helping our HR team evaluate medical benefits for our employers. And you just see some of the data about annual increase in healthcare costs. And I think employers are constantly trying to think of how do we offer a valuable benefit for our employees but also with an increase in costs, you know, how much can they shoulder versus they pass that on to the employees? And so I want to think through a scenario, Tim. If I’m somebody listening or perhaps a client of yours at YFP Planning, maybe I’m faced with lots of student loan debt, I’ve got competing priorities beyond the debt, I’m thinking about maybe getting in a home, I’ve got obviously other priorities that are tugging at my monthly income and at the end of day, there’s only so much to go around. So I think people get into open enrollment, especially on the healthcare side, and they see these bronze, silver, gold, platinum, and you start to ask the question of like, wow, there’s some significant differences potentially in premiums of what’s coming out of pocket per month as well as what could come out of pocket per month if there is coverage that’s utilized in the form of either deductibles, copay or coinsurance. And so I think there’s this constant question of like, what do I want to be paying out per month? And could I use those monies elsewhere versus how much do I want to play defense in the case that something would happen and not have to necessarily have a huge deductible that would come out of pocket? So how do we coach clients through that decision and that choice? And maybe better framed is kind of what questions are you asking or things that you’re getting them to think about?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so it’s definitely one of those things what you want to look at it comprehensively. We always talk about like the financial plan cannot be looked at in silos. So you can’t just look at the tax situation versus the investments versus insurance. You really have to look at the broad scope of things. And you know, that’s why I think having what we use as a client portal where we’re looking at everything at one time is so valuable. And most people, their finances are scattered between banking and investments and insurance, all that kind of stuff. So having that all tied in and having someone look at it objectively I think is important, to start. One of the things that I equate to is if I’m working with a healthy 30- to 35-year-old, for the most part, I’m asking questions about how often are you going to the doctor? Are there any pre-existing conditions? And again, we obviously build up a rapport to the point that we feel comfortable asking those questions. But the idea is we don’t want to have — we don’t want to pay for a Cadillac health insurance plan if we’re never going to drive it, you know? So the joke that I kind of make is for a lot of our clients that because they’re scared of the unknown, they might go and do a gold or a platinum plan, but it’s almost like my parents, who are older and kind of newer to a smartphone, it’s almost like giving them unlimited data. They’re just not going to use it, you know? And no offense, Mom and Dad, if you’re listening to this. But that’s the thing is like you want to match use. And it’s kind of like a cell phone plan. Some people, they’ll buy the Cadillac plan and not use it all, the data and the minutes, etc. So like the — I don’t know if minutes are even still a thing. But anyway, the point is is that we want to match the need with what we’re actually going to use. So those are some of the thing that we go through. And oftentimes, you can step down and maybe free up some more cash flow so there’s less coming out of your paycheck. But then, you know, we just want to make sure that we have things like an emergency fund that we can cover the deductible and obviously the maximum out-of-pocket costs for that year. The other thing that I think plays a part in this that we talk about is just — and it goes back to their life plan — is if I’m working with, again, a 30-year-old family and they’re thinking about having kids, is kind of timing that up. So it’s almost like an annual, like we talk about almost like an annual open enrollment optimization meeting where yes, if we’re looking at adding baby No. 2, maybe we don’t want a high deductible health plan with the HSA. Maybe we just put the HSA on ice, move up a plan or two so we have a little bit more coverage and we feel a little bit more comfortable, again, with those hospital bills and all the doctor appointments, etc. So those are the things that I think come into play. And we have clients that are like, yeah, I just, I go to the doctor a lot because I have this issue or this issue or it could pop up, and it’s almost like what we talk about the emergency fund, if you have a couple and one of them really wants $25,000 in the emergency fund although the calculation says we only $15,000 or $20,000, it’s not even worth the argument. Just pay the little bit of extra and have that comfort level. So those are all the things that I think at the very least, what we want to do here is — and I’m going to say it — we want to be intentional. We want to be asked those good questions and really do that on a year-to-year basis. So those are the things that we’re looking at when we’re kind of discussing the health stuff with clients.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff. And then let’s shift gears to talk about life and disability. And I want to first mention, we’re not going to obviously get in the weeds on all things life and disability insurance. Both can be a topic of their own, and they were a topic of their own, Episode 044, How to Determine Your Life Insurance Needs, Episode 045, How to Determine Your Disability Insurance Needs. We also have a lot more information on the website, YourFinancialPharmacist.com. But Tim, one of the most common questions I know that I get, I’m sure that you get, is do I need to purchase additional life and disability insurance beyond what my employer covers? So we’re getting into this what do I need and is what my employer provides enough? Or do I need additional coverage? So again, through the lens of how you’re coaching a client through this, how do you coach them through it? Are there questions that you ask to help uncover this answer?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so it’s going to be my stock answer of it depends. So if we look at life insurance from that perspective, actually life and disability I’ll say kind of the blanket statement that I kind of led the episode with is this is where we kind of venture from it being a plan to a perk. Just like we’ve seen with pensions and some other things, like it could be that in five, 10, 15 years, that these types of benefits are no longer offered by the employer. It’s just one of those things that it’s a suck on the cash flow of the employer and they go away. And this is me speculating, but when we look at life in particular, typically what I say to clients is sometimes it angers or annoys me when I see a client that is 28 that has no kids, no spouse, really just student loans and they’re paying premiums on a permanent whole life insurance outside of what the employer provides. So the caveat, you know, what I typically say to clients is when you have a — for life insurance, when you have a house, a spouse, and mouths to feed, that’s typically where you need some life insurance. So there’s other people that are dependent on you and your income. Now when it comes to the group policies, most of these are actually provided to you for free. It’s just one of the benefits. And it’s typically kind of the more on the not-so-great is like a flat $50,000 benefit that your beneficiary would receive. Or it’s typically a multiple of income. So it’s typically 1 or I just met with a client that had a 2.5x base, 2.5 times their base income was their benefit, which is pretty good. So if I make $100,000, I either get 1x or 2.5x, it just depends. And then you also have the ability to buy up voluntarily. So to me, you know, the problems with group policies is that there’s limits on actually how much you can get. Most of the individuals that we work with, they check off those boxes that they’re going to need $1 million+ in insurance at least. So there’s limits on the group policies. There’s portability. So if you just a group policy and you work with that company until you’re 42, and now you go and work with another company at 42 that doesn’t offer health insurance, I would rather you have bought that policy at 32 or 35. Now you have to go out and buy another policy yourself individually, it’s going to be that much more expensive. And the thing in life insurance is that typically, to buy it on your own, it’s not going to break the bank for most people. So the group policy for life insurance, it’s nice, it’s a perk, but not necessarily — most people are going to need to buy something outside of that. For disability, the same is true if not even more so. So typically, this is based on a percent of your income, so a 50-60% benefit. The biggest issue I have with group disability policies is that the definition of disability, which is sometimes really hard to find out what that is. So if you go back to that episode we talk about own occupation versus any occupation. So the big difference — so own occupation is the inability to work or engage in your own occupation versus any occupation, which is the inability to engage in any occupation. So the big thing I say to clients is if you have an any occupation — Tim, if you have an any occupation disability policy, and you get bumped on the head and you cognitively no longer can do your job, and you submit a claim, they’re going to say, “Well, Tim, we’re sorry about your situation, but we’re denying your claim because you can still bag groceries,” or something like that. So a lot of these group policies will be own occupation for a set period of time, maybe two years or three years. And then they switch to a any occupation. And to me, it’s kind of like a wolf in sheep’s clothing because you’re thinking like, oh, I have this long-term disability policy that’s going to cover me for a long time. And to me, I would almost rather them give you some type of stipend to go out and buy your own. So those are typically the conversations that we have with clients, for most of the clients that we work with, if not all, there is no spouse, mouths, house to feed kind of check box. Typically, if you are a pharmacist, you want to protect the income that you have worked so hard to basically earn. So for most people that we work with, that is definitely something that is often the biggest risk that is not necessarily felt by that particular client. Those are the things that we have to kind of like educate and talk through. So — and so much with the life — to kind of wrap up this answer, so much with life and disability is that you always think it’s going to happen to somebody else until it happens to you. And then that’s where we go down the path of like, this is a catastrophic event. How do we pick up the pieces from here? And those are just not conversations that we want to have.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, great stuff. And again, Episode 044, How to Determine Life Insurance Needs, Episode 045, How to Determine Disability Insurance Needs, we talk about some of those definitions in more detail, tax considerations, transferability issues, how to calculate your need. Tim, ironic you use the example of bagging groceries. So my very first job outside of working for the Ulbrich family business was bagging groceries at Top’s Supermarket, shoutout in Buffalo, New York. I loved it. One of my favorite jobs. And to this day, when I go grocery shopping, I have a hard time watching them bag groceries because I know, I know I can do it more efficiently. So one of my favorite work experiences. Alright, so let’s talk retirement. And again, a topic we have talked about at length on the podcast, long-term savings. We did an investing series, episodes 072-076, all about investment vehicles, retirement vehicles, tax consideration, fees. And most recently on Episode 163, we talked about investing beyond the 401k/403b. So Tim, my thought here is spending a few moments as people are going into just evaluating their benefits as a whole, we obviously know depending on where they work, they might be looking at a 401k, a 403b, a TSP, a Roth version of that. But taking a step back to say, before they just jump in, what are some general considerations that they should be thinking as it relates to those options available, options available outside of the employer? And again, how this fits in with the rest of the financial plan.

Tim Baker: So this can be fairly significant with regard to your financial plan. Like we work with clients that, you know, the 401k is stellar. And I actually had one of these meetings last night. The 401k for the wife was stellar, and good match, costs associated with the 401k were very minimal, good choice in terms of the investments that were there, versus the husband that his 401k was something like 30x more expensive. And the match was similar, but it was more — it kind of became more discretionary, meaning they would kind of evaluate it from year to year. Again, not a great investment selection, so these are the things — and I would say that this is really, really hard to kind of discern for yourself. So we have tools that we use that are very helpful, very expensive but very helpful to kind of help us crack the nut on the 401k. So it allows us to really kind of connect to these types of plans and evaluate them for the client and actually say — and the discussion that I had last night with a client was like, I said, “Look, you’re putting in 8% into your 401k, and they’re matching 4%. But the money that goes inside of that 401k is just being eroded at a rate that’s like 30x more if we put it into an IRA.” And that’s associated with the costs there. So what a client — and it’s easier to talk about this with round numbers, but if the client had $100,000 in their 401k, every year that 401k was basically charging that client like $1,200 versus his wife, which was like $20. So if you extrapolate that over 20-30 years, those are real dollars. And the problem with this is unless you can dig into the IRS forms that the plans file every year, it’s really hard to figure out what you’re actually paying. And that’s, to me, it’s a really big problem. So just like the health insurance kind of question, you’re kind of operating in the sandbox that they provide you with the 401k. So you’re going to be provided sometimes multiple options, it could be a 401k, a 403b, a 401a, you know, there’s different flavors. But you typically have, again, a set amount of investments inside of that, 20-30 funds that you are selecting from. And I would say it’s more important I think to have lower cost options within that versus a variety of — you know, one of the most efficient retirement plans out there is the TSP. And they have like six funds plus some target date funds. So it’s not a whole lot of choice. But the costs there are super low. So those are the things, as you are evaluating your employer’s plan, you have to kind of say, you know — and the discussions that we have is kind of what I was saying with the client that I recently met with is does it make sense to again get the match, get the free money, but then look outside to other accounts, whether it’s an IRA, even a taxable account, if there’s a side business maybe there’s a SEP IRA option or something like that, again, this is a little bit harder just because the information that you’re looking for is often buried in an IRS form. But it’s really, really important because if you look at the scenario that I brought up, that’s potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars, and that’s not an exaggeration if you extrapolate that over a career. So that’s really important. And for a lot of us, the 401k is going to be the biggest asset that we manage. And it’s important to get that right. So just a lot of moving pieces.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think, Tim, this is easy — I’m just speaking from personal experience — easy to kind of put this on autopilot of eh, it is what it is, it’s what I have. And I think really spending the time to dig in and understand not only the basic things like what are they matching? But also the investment options or choices, and you start to get into asset allocation, understanding fees. And some of that’s transparent, some of it’s not, so seeking help where you need to have help. We’re really investing the time because every year that goes by where there’s something like fees that are being taken out of what could turn into longer-term compounded returns, obviously there’s an exponential factor in that. So it’s worth spending the time. And that’s my challenge to the audience going into this year to really dig in deep here if you haven’t yet. Tim, I’m thinking of a small but important group of our audience, specifically probably some of our friends in the pharmaceutical industry space that may have some stock options available to them. I know we get this question often when we’re speaking with fellows — and a shoutout to MCPhS, a fellowship program. We’re actually going to be talking with them next week. And so that’s what had me thinking about this. You know, of course we know these options can vary from employer — one employer to another in terms of not only what they offer but of course the individual company and the outlook on that company, so there’s no black and white answer here. But what are some general considerations around stock options that folks should be thinking about?

Tim Baker: Typically, the big distinction that we want to make here is it’s not necessarily stock options that we’re dealing with. Typically, stock options is where you can buy a stock at a much discounted price sometime in the future then potentially sell it for what it actually selling for on the market. And there’s a variety of ways to kind of look at that and do that. Typically, what we see in higher levels of management, community pharmacy in kind of the big chains or in industry is RSUs, Restricted Stock Units. And this is not to be confused with employee stock purchase programs, which is kind of a savings account that you defer money into and then at the end of the quarter, you buy stock at a discounted price. It’s kind of almost like another way to save. So what an RSU is, what we’re talking about here, is think of it as compensation that is in the form of stock. So if I’m trying to hire you, Tim, to my pharmaceutical company, I might say, “Hey, Tim, I’ll pay you $130,000 and then we’ll award you $10,000 of stock over the next five years,” that’ll have some type of vesting period. So let’s pretend that we — after Year 1, we give you 100 shares. And then you know, that vest — and then what that means is that you have to work for a set amount of time for that to actually become yours. It’s in your account, but if you leave, it’s not necessarily there. The next year, maybe now have 200 shares and maybe that first 100 has vested. So if you leave, you can cash out that first 100. So it’s a creative way to provide compensation outside of what’s in your paycheck. So a lot of the considerations that we have to look here is again, what is the vesting period? They’re kind of golden handcuffs. What are the tax consequences? So when to basically sell them and if you have to pay capital gains tax and what that looks like. So those are all kind of things that we want to coordinate with not just the portfolio and the allocation that you have but also the tax ramifications that are there as well. So the RSUs are a beautiful thing, and we’ve been working with clients that get awarded, and it’s great to have that money there. But it’s also how does this plug into the greater financial plan and how can we do it in the most efficient way possible from an allocation but then also from a tax perspective.

Tim Ulbrich: And as we wrap up this section on retirement options and savings, employer-sponsored retirement, for those that are listening that perhaps your employer doesn’t offer one — I’m thinking about some of our independent pharmacy folks or you look at your option and say, “Wow, these are crazy. Is there a better way forward?” We’d love to talk with you about that. I mean, I think that’s an area that we’re interested in seeing an opportunity to help. So you can shoot us an email, [email protected], and we can set up a time to discuss that further. So Tim, last piece here before we talk a little bit about the open enrollment logistics and some considerations for the actual process itself. I want to spend a couple moments on FSAs, HSAs. I think these are often confused. I know we’ve talked about this on the show before, but it couldn’t hurt as a reminder as some folks may have an HSA available, some may not. Some may have an FSA and don’t want them to confuse that with what an HSA is. So talk to us about an FSA/HSA difference and considerations as they’re evaluating these options.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think the big difference between the FSA and the HSA is FSA I think — or FSA is a pass-through account, meaning it doesn’t accumulate over many, many years. So you essentially set up an FSA, which could be for healthcare, it could be for dependent care, through your employer. And it’s an arrangement that lets you pay for many out-of-pocket medical expenses or childcare expenses with tax-free dollars. So it’s allowed — from the medical side, it’s allowed for things like copayments and deductibles, prescription drugs, medical devices, etc. On the dependent care, it’s things like daycare costs, camps, etc. So with the FSA, if the money is left at the end of the year, the employer can typically do one of two things, not both. They typically can either give you another couple months, like typically 2.5 months to spend the leftover money. So let’s pretend I have $1,000 in my FSA at the end of 2020, I’m given until mid-February to spend that money. Or what they can do is they can let you carry over up to $500 into the next plan year. So if I have $1,000, I have to spend $500, and then I can carry over the other $500 into 2021. Anything above and beyond that is lost, which is why I just don’t like these types of plans. I mean, they’re good to shelter you from tax, but you’re kind of like — you’re kind of trying to guess some of the things that are maybe not as predictable as we might think. So it’s one of those things that we would fund with things that we know we’re going to have to pay. So if we know we’re having daycare that costs us x amount of dollars, we know we want to fund it at least for that. Or if we know that we’re going to have these particular costs for health, we want to fund it with at least that. So that is the FSA. The HSA, on the other hand, is an accumulation account — or it can be. It can also be a pass-through account. So the HSA is the only account that has a triple tax benefit, which means it goes in pre-tax, it grows tax-free and then if it’s used for qualifying medical expenses, it comes out tax-free. So it completely misses the tax man at every step. So the big difference, though, is that I could put $2,000 into it this year, as an example, and not spend it. And then next year, I could put another $2,500 and not spend it and actually invest it. You know, invest it almost like an IRA — similar to an IRA — and basically use it as an accumulation account. So a lot of people use it as a stealth IRA. And this is what we do is that we try to cash flow our medical expenses and just leave the HSA alone. And the idea is that it’s just another bucket of money that we’re funding that can be used for retirement sometime in the future or it could be used for hey, in 2022, we had a health thing that pops up that we really need to pull that money from. So there’s a lot of flexibility and power in the HSA. With the HSA, you have to have a high deductible health plan. So if you have one of those gold health plans, you’re not going to be able to fund an HSA. The deductible won’t be in line. So those are the big differences between the FSA and the HSA.

Tim Ulbrich: And we talked, Episode 165, Tim Church and I talked about the power of the Health Savings Account. Make sure to check that out. We talked in more detail about what you had summarized there, talked about some of the contribution limits, the definitions of high deductible health plan and got in a little bit as well of the differences between that and an FSA. And I couldn’t agree more, Tim. I think for people that have access to an HSA, if they can leverage the benefits that you suggested, great. Many people may not have access to one and so really looking at the FSA as is that an option for saving for planned expenses you know that are going to be coming up in the following calendar year? So we’ve talked about a lot, Tim. We talked about health insurance, life and disability, retirement, as well as the FSA/HSAs, and I want to wrap up by summarizing the open enrollment process. What exactly is it? And then what are some considerations for our listeners as they head into this season of open enrollment?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so open enrollment is typically a time, it’s a time period that every employer has. It’s usually held annually. A lot of them have them this time of year. Sometimes they’re in the summertime, sometimes in spring. But for the most part, we see them in kind of the September-October-November time period. So it’s a time for the employee to basically select their benefits or their health plan or whatever for the next year. So you know, the open enrollment period sometimes can be glossed over and they’ll just say, “Hey, well, I’m just going to kind of keep the status quo.” The problem with that is that oftentimes these plans are changing, you know, every year they’re changing with costs and everything kind of moving. But I think the way that we approach it with clients is one, to be a — kind of to be a sounding board for them. And we often, what we’ll do is we’ll log onto the benefits portal with a client, and we’ll just kind of go — we’ll review the packet that maybe they’ve sent out to us and we’ll read through it and we’ll kind of just provide comments and ask questions. And then sometimes we’ll actually log on and actually go through their open enrollment and say, “Hey, let’s opt into this. Let’s opt out of that, we don’t need to be paying for that, etc.” So the thing that I would say for listeners is to really take a look at what your employer is providing. And if you have questions, this is another thing that we do — because sometimes it’s not apparently clear what the benefit is or what it covers, etc. is put your HR people to work. I often ask the question — and I actually have this conversation. I’ll say like, “Is your HR person any good?” And they’re like, “No, not really.” So we can formulate good questions and then basically if we can take them all the way to finish line in terms of what they need, great. But if sometimes we have to go back to the HR person and say — and have the client or the employee say, “OK, like can you explain this a little bit more about –” we just had one that’s about the definition of disability and what that looks like. And this particular client, their company was going through a merge, so there was a little bit of kind of just unsure about what it’s going to look like going forward. But to me, this all goes back to the I word, which is be intentional, review your stuff, kind of take stock of where you’re at in your life, what you think you need, what you don’t need. I would say one of the things that I often see is that this is one of the things that is overlooked in the financial plan. And it’s kind of a microcosm of insurance. It’s like, ah, I don’t need insurance, or ah, it won’t happen to me and ah, I don’t want to take the time to read through it. And I get it. I mean, some of these packets that we get are 100 pages long. It’s 100-page PDF. And we can basically go through it fairly quickly and kind of pull out, extrapolate the information that is most important, provide good, sound recommendations. But it is one of those things that is important and you know, you want to — to me, it’s about optimization and making sure you’re using best use of everything that is kind of available to you, whether it’s, again, salary, insurance, etc. So those are the things that I think should be top of mind for someone as they kind of go through this period of open enrollment.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that’s a great recommendation. It reminds me a little bit of the advice that we give to recent graduates of hey, don’t wait until the grace period’s up to make your decision and do your homework. So now is the time to really be understanding some of these nuances, the options that are available, looking at it in the context of the rest of your financial plan, reaching out, getting some help, so that once you get to that open enrollment period and you have that meeting or that webinar and you get that packet of information, you’re ready to hit the ground running with evaluating that further and making those decisions.

Tim Baker: The HR person should be able to like contact the insurance or even like the 401k, like I’ve come back with clients and I’ll say to the 401 provider, “Why are these fees the way they are when there are options that are much, much cheaper?” So you know, you — I mean, the HR person might not be able to answer the question directly. You know, sometimes it’s like, well, I don’t know that. But then to me it’s push the issue. And it’s like, well OK, can we talk to the people that do know these questions, whether it’s an insurance question or a 401k question, etc. So to me, it’s like don’t be shy about this. This is important. It’s a crucial part of your financial plan and your livelihood. So to me, those are questions that we want answers to. So I would just say, kind of squeaky wheel gets the oil type of thing and make sure that you’re putting the professionals that get paid to provide these services, put them to work and make sure that you’re satisfied with the outcome.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, especially for those listening that feel like they have some cruddy options available because those are the individuals that are often making the decisions, they’re getting in front of the reps that are providing them with the options, so you know, there might be an opportunity to do some direct or indirect education on oh my gosh, I had no idea about the fees or what other options may be out there. Because at the end of the day, you know, to defend some of these HR folks, many of them are busy with a lot of things and sometimes it’s easy to renew a package rather than really taking the time to evaluate what else may be out there and be of benefit to the employees. So Tim, great stuff, as always. And to the YFP community, we appreciate you taking time to join us on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. If you liked what you heard on this week’s episode, please do us a favor and leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show each and every week. And if you are not yet a part of the Your Financial Pharmacist Facebook group, I hope you will join us. Over 6,000 pharmacy professionals strong, helping one another and committed to helping one another on their path towards achieving financial freedom. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 173: Using Systems to Automate Real Estate Investing

Posted on by yfpadmin

Using Systems to Automate Real Estate Investing

Ryan Chaw, pharmacist and real estate investor, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about how he built a six-figure rental portfolio, red flags to look out for as an investor, and the method he uses to find good tenants.

About Today’s Guest

Ryan graduated with his Doctor of Pharmacy in 2015 at age 23

He was inspired by his grandpa who bought 3 properties in the Bay and achieved financial independence for himself and was able to help cover college tuition for his grandchildren.

Ryan bought his first property in 2016. It was a single family home at his local college. He rented out the house per bedroom and renovated to add extra bedrooms to increase rental profit.

He repeated the same process for each property, buying 1 property each year. He then created a system for getting consistent high quality tenants, managing the tenants, and decreasing expenses through preventative maintenance. He now makes $10,755 per month in rental income.

Three of the properties are on 15 year mortgages and one is on a 10 year mortgage. Ryan took a HELOC out on the first house to help buy the 4th house. He paid off his first property in 2020.

Ryan is now teaching others his system: how to find a college town to invest near, analyzing a deal, generating tenant leads through strong marketing, and how to self-manage college tenants so everything is hands off and automated.

In his free time Ryan travels to many foreign countries to just absorb the culture and life outside of California. So far he has been to China, Japan, Taiwan, the Bahamas, Canada, Paris, London, Germany, and Mexico.

Summary

Ryan Chaw joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about his why and motivation behind real estate investing, how he built his portfolio so quickly, how he balances a full-time pharmacist career with real estate investing, red flags to watch out for when purchasing a rental property and Ryan’s unique method for finding high quality tenants.

Since graduating pharmacy school in 2015, Ryan has purchased four single family homes with 18 tenants and brings in $10,755 a month. Although he hasn’t been able to purchase a property this year, Ryan paid off his first property in full which brings in about $2,500 in rental income monthly. He also now has a large HELOC that he can access to fund a future deal if needed.

Ryan shares that despite being a full-time pharmacist and real estate investor, he does in fact have a work/life balance. Ryan set up systems and standard protocols in place so that he can run things on autopilot. He has systems created for maintenance issues and advertising which allows him to only have to spend an hour a week on his properties. Because of these systems he doesn’t feel the need to hire a property management company which would cut into his cash flow.

Ryan shares several red flags to watch out for when purchasing real estate like: water stains, mold, dry rot, strange odors, uneven flooring and if the property is being sold as is. He also explains his process for finding high quality tenants which he refers to as his PRIME method which stands for:

P – placement of advertisements

R – review of social media

I – identifying type of tenant

M – measuring responsiveness

E – ensuring proof of income

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Ryan, thank you so much for coming back on the show. How are things going?

Ryan Chaw: Things are good. I’m excited to be on the show again.

Tim Ulbrich: Happy to have you back. Appreciate you reaching out to give me an update on kind of where you’re at, and we’re going to talk all about your portfolio, what you’re working on on the real estate side, how in the world do you manage that given your competing responsibilities also as a pharmacist. And you know, I’ve been wondering, Ryan, so last time we talked, you had mentioned your love for international travel. So here we are, obviously in the midst of a global pandemic, travel hasn’t been what it was. So how are you spending your time and really finding that release from work without travel as an option?

Ryan Chaw: That’s a great question. Yeah, I’ve been going on a lot of hikes nowadays, kind of just get clarity and work on my mindset and see where I want to go with my real estate business and everything. So yeah, I’ve been doing that. Also just spending time with friends, either outdoor dining or sometimes just online, we play this game that’s kind of like Mafia, it’s called Among Us. But yeah, it just kind of is chilling.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. And I’m glad you mentioned mindset because I have found also, you know, I think 2020 is going to be a year for many of us that we look back in five or 10 years, and there’s a lot of reflection going on. I know for me in 2020, I think just the midst of everything that’s going on, perhaps more time, less activities, whatever be the reason, but a great time to develop, to set mindset, to reflect on where things have been, to reset if you need to reset, and to look ahead into the future. And so today, we continue our focus for the YFP community, as we mentioned, in 2020, we want to bring you more real estate investing content. And so again, Ryan, we had you on the show, Episode 140. We talked all about how you’re bringing in almost $11,000 a month through college town real estate investing, such an awesome conversation, great story. I personally think it was really inspirational to a lot of people that are itching to get into real estate investing while still working full-time as a pharmacist but maybe aren’t quite sure as to where to start. And so I hope folks will go back and take a listen to that episode, Episode 140, if they haven’t yet done so. And we’ll link to that in the show notes. And so Ryan, I want to chat with you about a few different aspects of your real estate investing journey, including your strategy behind building the portfolio that you’ve built, especially in an expensive market, some red flags that ended up costing you quite a bit of money on your first deal — and we’ll break that down — as well as your unique prime method that you use to find great tenants at your properties, which as we know obviously can be the difference in terms of not only headaches but also in terms of cash flow. So let’s hit the stage and talk about your portfolio and recap some of your journey for perhaps those that didn’t join us on Episode 140. Take us back. Remind us when you got into real estate, why you got into real estate, and what your current portfolio is made up of.

Ryan Chaw: Yeah, sure. Let’s start with why I got into real estate because it really was an inspirational journey for me. I got started from my grandpa, actually. He bought a couple properties back in the ‘50s before Silicon Valley was even a thing. And as we know, all those properties went up in price like crazy, and he became a multimillionaire and was able to retire early. Not only that, he was able to cover part of my college tuition and that of my brother’s. So it really showed me that real estate is one of the best ways to create generational wealth, not just for yourself but for your children and future generations as well. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to ask him how he did it before he passed away, but you know, I wanted to get started as soon as possible. So I got my pharmacy degree in 2015, I graduated as a RPH or PharmD, and I just wanted to get started as soon as possible. So I worked a lot of long hours. I actually had two jobs. I worked as a retail pharmacist and as a hospital pharmacist and really grinded it out because I had this dream and vision for myself, right? So I wanted to get started in real estate as soon as possible because I knew that the prices will go up over time, rent will go up, all of that. And so real estate’s really a time game, and you’ve got to get started as soon as possible. So I bought my first house in 2016. It was a $262,000, three-bed, two-bath house. And I bought it in my local college town because I figured if I rent out per bedroom, I could get a lot more rental income than if I rented out the whole house to like a family or something like that. And so I bought one house every year by reinvesting the cashflow, investing my W2 income, and I actually took out something called a HELOC, which we can talk about later, it’s called a Home Equity Line of Credit. Because my first house went up in price by about $60,000, I was able to access the equity, take it out, and put it onto my fourth property. So now I have four single-family homes with 18 tenants that makes $10,755 per month at max capacity.

Tim Ulbrich: I love it. Thanks for the recap. I mean, I love the energy in your voice, kind of the why. We talked about that on Episode 140, what’s the why, what’s the purpose beyond making money, but what’s the vision as it relates to your financial plan? I love the focus on a desire for generational wealth. And you know, while you weren’t able to ask your grandpa what the playbook was, you know, here we are, recording this, right? So this is going to be available not only to others in the community but as I’m sure you’re already thinking, how you can pass this down in information to your kids and their kids and how important that is to be able to teach others the principles that we learn along the way. And so Ryan, in 2020, here we are. I know you had mentioned a goal of acquiring one property each year, but this year has been different — let’s be kind and say it was different, right? It’s been a challenging year, we’ve got a global pandemic, you live in an expensive market, so I’m guessing your plans and visions for 2020 may not have panned out exactly as you had thought they would before especially the pandemic hit. So tell us a little bit more about what has happened in 2020 as it relates to your portfolio?

Ryan Chaw: Yeah, definitely. So coronavirus hit and unfortunately, the college that I invest near did shut down and went to online classes only. There are a few classes that are still on campus, and so I was kind of like worried. Like am I still going to get tenants, right? So I contacted my existing tenants and asked them all, you know, ‘Do you guys want to extend your lease? Do you still want to stay or not? Because you guys have the option to cancel your lease because I can’t — obviously this was unprecedented, we didn’t expect this. So I’m giving you the option to cancel.’ So you know, just kind of working with the current tenants and saying, ‘Hey, I can go around your budget as well if there’s budgeting concerns.’ I basically made that connection with them, and that’s how I was able to actually keep a lot of the current tenants. And not only that, when I advertised, I advertised in Facebook groups, and I offer them to give me a call so I can talk to them to see if this is a good fit for them, right? So I would basically on the call go through any of the concerns about the house. A lot of the concerns are like security, is this a good neighborhood, what are the other tenants like, and all of that. But because I took that extra step to get on a call with them, I was able to basically fill up almost all of my bedrooms during this year. So I have 17 bedrooms, and I filled 15 of them so far.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. And I think that speaks to your focus on relationships, not only finding good tenants but also maintaining those relationships. And before we hit record, you also mentioned this year, you were able to pay off one of your properties in full, correct? Tell us more about that.

Ryan Chaw: Yeah, I was actually able to pay off the first property. It’s kind of like for peace of mind, honestly. There’s definitely this debate between should I just leverage my money to the max and basically just buy as much property as I can with the money I have? Or should I pay off some of them so I don’t have to worry about not being able to pay the mortgage? If there’s a huge recession or something like, I’m not underwater. So for me, I kind of wanted a little bit of peace of mind, so I paid off my first property. And it doesn’t mean I can’t touch that money. I can still access it through my HELOC, right, my Home Equity Line of Credit. But it does give me that peace of mind and that extra cash flow. The first property was making around $2,500 per month in rental income, so I have that $2,500 per month in just passive income basically, minus some expenses, obviously. But yeah. I mean, that kind of was one of my goals is to pay them off, right? So I was definitely happy for that.

Tim Ulbrich: Congratulations. And you know, $2,500 a month of rental income, no mortgage payment, that’s a great position. And I think I appreciate your comment about, you know, even though you paid that off doesn’t mean you don’t have access to the equity if you wanted to tap into that. But obviously you’re weathering a little bit of an unprecedented situation here I’m sure and will be on the offensive going into the future. So tell us more about the financing of those four properties. Did you approach the financing the same in all of those? And tell us about how you were able — you mentioned the HELOC, but in terms of the mortgage structures, and I think that will help give folks an understanding of what options may be available to them.

Ryan Chaw: Yeah, definitely, especially with pharmacists having such a high salary, a lot of them making a good six-figure income or a little bit less than that, we have options to purchase these houses, we have that opportunity that a lot of people may or may not have, right? Especially as an employee, you actually get pretty good financing options. What I did is a conventional mortgage through Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac, those are just two government-sponsored enterprises out there that basically set the rules for how the loan can be done or what loans are given out, right? And so I just did the conventional financing and was able to reinvest my cash flow every time to purchase a property sooner and sooner each year.

Tim Ulbrich: OK. And if I recall from our conversation before, majority of those you had on a 15-year mortgage, maybe one that was shorter than that. Obviously you’ve paid one off since then. But is that correct?

Ryan Chaw: Yeah. They’re all on 15-year mortgages. I kind of that, again, with the peace of mind idea, I want to pay them off as soon as I can. If I were to pay them all off, it would take me until I had around 31, and then I would have that six-figure, that $10,755 per month just coming in in passive income. And so then at that point, I could retire, basically live life on my own terms, be able to do what I want where I want with whomever I want to do it with and have that choice whether I want to go on to work or not.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, financial independence by definition, right, right there. So tell me more, tell our listeners more — you know, I’m guessing some folks are thinking, my gosh, rates are at the lowest we’ve seen in who knows how long, it probably doesn’t get any better than they’re at right now. And so as you were kind of reconciling paying these off early — and you’ve alluded to this a little bit with peace of mind versus it’s a low interest rate debt, I can free up some monthly cash flow, whether that be for purchasing properties, maybe contributing into other retirement funds or other investments or ventures. How have you reconciled this balance between peace of mind/aggressive repayment versus you know what, it’s pretty cheap debt and I might be able to do something else with that money?

Ryan Chaw: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I’ve definitely been looking at the current market. And it’s kind of like as Bruce Lee says, you have to be like water. You want to definitely have a plan but be flexible with your plan, right? Water takes the form of the container it’s in, which means like you have to be able to pivot. Like if there’s a — maybe let’s say the housing market crashes, right? All of these houses are on sale. Well then you do want to start leveraging your money. You do want to buy as many properties as possible. So that’s why I have that HELOC. You want to be in that position where you can go either way. So right now, the market’s very hot. Houses are actually being bought in cash for over asking price. So I’ve been definitely having trouble finding a house to purchase this year. But I’m definitely always looking, and if I can find a good deal and an opportunity add where I can add extra bedrooms like turn a three-bed to a five-bed house, then I will jump on it right away. So yeah, I guess that’s my best advice, just what Bruce Lee said, be like water.

Tim Ulbrich: I love that. I mean, be flexible, be nimble, and put yourself in a position, right, so when the time is right — it doesn’t mean you’re always on the offensive, but you’ve got yourself in a position, whether that’s cash, whether that’s a HELOC that you have ability to access some equity, but you’re in a position, ready to go, when that time does make sense and obviously when that deal presents itself. So Ryan, you’ve built a six-figure rental portfolio in a matter of four years. I want our listeners to remember you’re a 2015 PharmD grad, bought your first property in 2016, which is really impressive in and of itself, but you’re also working full-time as a pharmacist. And so the obvious question here is, how are you doing that? What’s the work-life balance like? Or is there even one?

Ryan Chaw: Yeah, that’s a great question. So there’s definitely a work-life balance. So the thing is, if you have systems in place to go to protocols, standard protocols in place for when something goes wrong, then you can automate everything and be able to do this while you’re working as a full-time pharmacist because I did it, right? I have four properties. I have 18 tenants. And I’m able to do this on the side simply because I have these systems in place for when something goes wrong. So for a quick example, let’s just say a toilet broke down, right, or there’s a toilet leak. So I teach my tenants, I empower my tenants and give them responsibilities, if this happens then you should call this number, bill it to this contractor. So I kind of have like a list of numbers of contractors that they can go to for that. Or if they were to like text message me, I would just forward that text message to the proper contractor because I have this contractor team that takes care of issues for me. And I know what the strengths and weaknesses of each contractor, so I know where to put whom.

Tim Ulbrich: And so when it comes to that contractor team, you know, I’m wondering as somebody who’s at the very beginning of this journey, how do you build that contractor team that you trust, right? So I’ve talked to several folks who are like, I’ve got this contractor, I trust him, I know that it’s good work, it’s a fair price. But you know, as somebody who’s new into this space, you’re like, I don’t know. I might Google search, I might ask some people on Bigger Pockets or whatever, so how did you build that team? Was it through experience? Was it through referrals? Tell us more about that.

Ryan Chaw: No, real estate’s all about connections. And going back to what we were talking about earlier where I connected with the tenant on the phone, right, and really give that human touch, it’s really all about connections. So what I did is I actually talked to my neighbors, and my neighbor’s friend was actually a contractor in the area, and he did a lot of projects. So I just had him kind of, just tested him out, had him do some smaller projects, and then eventually some larger projects. He did a great job, and you know, he charged a fair price and all of that. Right? But if you’re kind of just starting out, I would say just talk to your real estate agent. Your real estate agent will likely know some contractors in the area. Talk to your neighbors, talk to people around the area, build those connections. Also when you talk to contractors, make sure you talk to — if it’s a major project especially — talk to at least three. Get like — they’re called bids. Get three bids, and choose the one that seems to know what they’re doing, is able to explain what they’re going to do, and is a good price point. So the point of getting the three bids is so you can compare. Also, you can ask for something called an itemized bid, and this is just like another tip. An itemized bid is where they separate out the cost of materials and the cost of labor. And so the cost of labor shouldn’t be too much, like it shouldn’t be over $100 per hour most times. And then the cost of the materials, you can just look that up on Google or you can even pay for the materials yourself, ship them over to the contractor and have them give you a bid for labor.

Tim Ulbrich: Great advice and input. And one of the other things I was wondering that I suspect our listeners are as well, you mentioned that when an issue comes up with a tenant, you’ve kind of educated them or given them information on where to go, ideally take yourself out of it, but if they reach out to you, you can then just work with that one contractor, forward their information. So does that remove the need for working with a property management company? Or is that in addition to working with a property management company?

Ryan Chaw: To me, it actually removes the need for a property management company. I feel like I do like even a better job than most property management companies out there because I have these systems in place. If you do want to hire a property management company, they can take anywhere from like 8-12% of your rental income, right? And that, to me, wasn’t necessary because I have systems in place for advertising my properties, vetting and finding high quality tenants, I have systems for if issues come up, if tenants complain about other tenants, right? And because I have all that in place right now, that’s all automated, I really don’t have to do much work other than just keeping track of the finances.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. That’s awesome. I think the investment you’ve made there, I can tell it’s something you have a strength in, you know? And for some folks, they may build that system, others may factor in the property management into their deal analysis but making sure you’re accounting for that piece of it is really important. So you’ve got these four units, obviously you sat tight here in 2020. What are your future plans? Do you plan to continue with single-family homes where you’re renting out the rooms, this model that you’ve been doing? Or are you looking to branch out into other property types?

Ryan Chaw: Yeah, that kind of goes back to the being flexible part, right?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, yeah.

Ryan Chaw: I would say first, I will diversify, definitely invest in different college towns, not just my own. Maybe go to 7-10 houses, somewhere around there would be kind of like my end portfolio. You really don’t need that much to achieve financial freedom, honestly. And like I said, I’m able to do it by the time I’m 31 or so. And I started this when I was 24. So that’s like 7-8 years or so. Any pharmacist could really achieve financial freedom, especially if they use these strategies of renting out per bedroom because you’re basically doubling your cash flow on the property.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. So let’s talk about your first deal. And you know, one of the things I mentioned — and I feel like we probably don’t even do enough of — is that real estate investing isn’t always rainbows and butterflies, right? Sometimes you walk into a bad deal, issues come up with tenants, you’re faced with a major maintenance, unforeseen rehab costs, I mean, really, the list can go on. So talk to us about the red flags that cost you big on your first real estate deal and how you learned from that and what you’ve then applied to future investment properties that you’ve evaluated.

Ryan Chaw: Oh yeah, definitely. So my first deal was a 100-year-old house, so you can imagine it already had a lot of problems on it. So I got this call at 11 p.m. on a weekend from one of my tenants. He said, “Dude, man, there’s sewage shooting out the kitchen sink, and it’s all over the kitchen floor right now.” So I was like calling up a cleaning crew, plumbers, at like midnight on this weekend. And of course I had to pay premium pricing because it was on the weekend at midnight. And so the plumber stuck down a camera down the pipe, and he found that the sewage pipe whole line was rusted over and there were roots sticking into it, and it was broken, basically. So it had to be replaced. It cost $9,000 just to replace that line with like PVC and everything and to clean up the mess and everything too. So I was like, oh man, I’m $9,000 under, right? Not only that, there was a lot of these openings around the outside of the house where rats got in and feral cats actually brought fleas in. So I had a flea and a rat infestation at the same house in the same year.

Tim Ulbrich: Lovely.

Ryan Chaw: I know, right? It’s like, come on, man. There’s so much stuff. And then last thing that I didn’t notice was the house actually had no A/C. So I had to — and this was in Stockton, so it gets up to 100 degrees there. So the tenants were complaining like crazy. I ended up having to install a mini-split system that cost me $15,000. Yeah. So like you know, don’t make the same mistakes I’ve made. Obviously I could have easily figured out if there was an updated HVAC system on this house. I was also really terrible at advertising, so I had put up a sign on the lawn, a “For Rent” sign. That didn’t work very well because I ended up getting a lot of calls, but the calls were from people who weren’t very qualified to live at the property. Yeah, it was just from random people. And most of them couldn’t even afford it. And most of them weren’t even students. Lesson learned, get a sewage line inspection during the escrow phase because you can tell if a pipe is broken, and you can use that as a negotiation point at the point of sale, so the seller either cuts you a check at closing or they pay for some of the closing costs to make up for the broken pipe or for a rusted-over pipe with roots sticking into it. Other red flags, look for any signs of water stains or mold because water honestly is one of the worst forces of nature that can totally destroy a house and its structure, especially if untreated. So usually when I go through a house, I kind of have this red flag checklist I look through. Is there water stains? Any signs of mold? Is there any dry rot? You guys can look up dry rot on Google. It’s basically a fungal infection of the wood that can destroy the structural integrity of a house. Are there any strange odors in the house? That can mean poor ventilation. Is the house — do they have uneven flooring? That could be a foundation issue. When the property is listed, is it sold as is? That means the seller is not going to be willing to pay for any fixes that come up during the inspection. So there’s a lot of things I look for on the house definitely.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and what I hear there, Ryan, I guess there’s a couple ways to kind of implement solutions going forward. One is you live the mistake and then you make sure it never happens again or you hear from other folks such as people listening to you and they’re like, OK, got it, checklist system now that I need to have in place. But I think what I hear you really trying to describe — of course there’s going to be maintenance, things that are going to go wrong from time to time, tenant turnover and so forth — but what are those “catastrophic” things that are really going to eat into either your cash flow, returns, your emergency funds, or cause significant issues that you can try to identify and advance. And what process do you have in place to make sure you’re going to do everything that you can to identify what those things would be before you obviously close on the property. Or I guess if the deal is good enough, you account for it in the financials to make sure that you can take on that repair. So that’s helpful. And I really want to spend a few moments here as we wrap up learning about your process for finding high quality tenants because I think, you know, second maybe to fleas or rehab costs or things going wrong, second to that, a common objection is I just don’t want to deal with tenants and multiple tenants and turnover of tenants and what that means. And so I think finding high quality tenants is really an important process. So you have a PRIME process to do that, PRIME. So give us an overview of that method and how and why you created it. And then we can talk further about that.

Ryan Chaw: Yeah, for sure. And this is one of my systems I use to basically automate the whole process. And once you automate everything, honestly I spend less than an hour per week on my properties in general. So creating this system is really key to creating a profitable, successful real estate investment. And so that’s why I’m kind of going through each system and checklist that I have in this interview. So let’s start with the PRIME method. P stands for Placement of advertisements, R stand for Review of social media, I stands for Identifying the type of tenant they are, M stands for Measuring responsiveness, E stands for Ensuring proof of income. So let’s start with the P first. P is Placement of advertisements. You need to place you ads where your target tenants hang out. I made the mistake of just putting a sign on the lawn, right? But putting ads up where your target tenants don’t hang out, it’s like fishing in an empty pool. You’re not going to catch anything, right? Or catch anything that you want, at least.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure, yep.

Ryan Chaw: So what I do is I actually go onto these Facebook groups, Class of 2022, Off-Campus Housing, Rooms for Rent, basically these Facebook groups where the students, college students, will hang out and look for housing. I also contact — last year, I contacted the student government and asked them, can they put some of my ads or fliers up in the school buildings where the college tenants hang out? And so that really actually got me quite a few tenant leads through that. So that’s very important, just placing advertisements, thinking about where your target market hangs out, it’s very important. R stands for Reviewing social media. So that means I go through their Facebook profile, social media, to screen for are they like a party type of tenant? Are they smoking, doing drugs or alcohol in their pictures? Right? Or are they going to a bunch of raves and all that? Are they like more of a studious type tenant who is very focused on their studies, they’re maybe in a professional school like a pharmacy, dentist, medical student, right? A third- or fourth-year student usually are more mature than first- and second-years. They’ve usually got their party life out and all that as well. Just because if I can get one or two studious students in that house, they kind of stop the other students from throwing a wild party because they’re like, “Dude man, I’ve got a midterm tomorrow. I’m not going to stand for us having a drinking party right now.” Right? So that’s important. I stands for Identifying the type of tenant they are. So there’s different types of people out there. There’s ones who will look for the cheapest deal, right? They’ll go for the Motel 6 rather than the Ritz Carlton. But there’s others out there who will go for the Ritz Carlton, right, because they want the best quality deal that’s out there.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Ryan Chaw: So the one who wants the best quality, obviously I would put them in the master bedroom versus the one who wants the cheapest deal, I’ll put them in a smaller bedroom but also the cheapest price bedroom. Sometimes, I have so many tenants that I don’t even have to — the tenants always asking for a discount or a cheaper deal, I could just find another tenant who doesn’t care so much about the price of the rent. But honestly, my houses are half the price of on-campus housing. On-campus housing is around $1,200 a month. And I charge only around $600 a month. So really, it’s a really great market out there. We are providing affordable housing for a lot of students.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Ryan Chaw: M stands for Measuring responsiveness. So that’s the more responsive a tenant is, usually the more responsible they are, the more mature and professional they are, because would you rather have like let’s say you contact a tenant for rent, late rent. Would you rather have them take three weeks to get back to you and say, “Oh, I didn’t see this message,” or something or someone who gets back to you right away. So you measure the responsiveness of the tenant based off of how fast they get back to you on the paperwork you send them or anything you ask of them, right? And then E stands for Ensuring proof of income. So that means you ensure that the parents make enough money to afford the rent. Usually, it’s the parents paying, which is great because what parent is not going to pay for their child’s — you know? And risk their child being evicted from where they’re staying in college, right? Parents are also great because they help clean up after their children too, believe it or not. They’ll vacuum the whole house. I’ll go like, wow, OK, I didn’t have to do anything.

Tim Ulbrich: And easier to communicate with, right? You’ve got a second option if need be.

Ryan Chaw: Yeah. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And I have like an authority figure I could go to if there are issues with that current tenant too. But I haven’t had to do — I only had to do that once in my whole five years of renting out to students. So yeah, I usually ask for the last two monthly bank statements and FICO score or credit score. The kids also will give me student loan documents or financial aid documents to prove that you can afford the rent, that type of stuff. It’s important to ensure proof of income, especially during COVID if you guys are investing during this time. There are people who have lost their jobs, right? So you do want to make sure that they have a good amount in the bank and that they’re not going to ever have trouble affording the rent because that’s not good for both of you, right?

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. So again, that’s the PRIME method for finding high quality tenants. P is for Placement of advertisements, R: Review social media, I: Identify type of tenant, M: Measure responsiveness, and E: Ensure proof of income. So Ryan, one of the things I was thinking about as you were talking, just by the nature of who you’re often recruiting as a tenant, obviously a college town, health profession types of students, I would assume that would almost refer themselves, that you — the advertisement may be important up front and perhaps if you have a vacancy, but I could see where P4s, P3s, P2s, even if they’re in a medical school, M4s, M3s, where they are often talking among themselves. And it’s like, if there’s a good deal and it’s a nice property and they feel like you’re a good landlord, then they’re going to refer that to their peers. So is that something that you find to be true?

Ryan Chaw: Oh yeah, definitely. Nowadays, I get about 50% of my tenants just through referrals, basically guys that say like, “Hey, I have this friend who also wants to stay at the property because I enjoy staying here. And I was wondering if I could bring some of my friends in.” And I’m like, “Yeah, totally fine. Just have them shoot me a message.” And so I’m able to actually get a lot through referrals. So it’s kind of like one of those businesses — at the beginning, you do have to put in a lot of work to establish your reputation. But then, if you treat your tenants right, you treat them with respect, then it really snowballs to a point where it’s pretty much all automated. The tenants start looking for you instead of you having to do that push and advertise and look for them.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And thank you for sharing that input in both the method for finding tenants, some of the red flags that you look for when you’re acquiring a property, looking at properties, as well as your current status of your portfolio. So great to have you back on the show. And I want to wrap up by — I always like to ask guests, you know, what resources would you recommend to those that are looking to get started or even continue their journey in real estate investing?

Ryan Chaw: Oh yeah. So I would say Bigger Pockets does provide a lot of resources. I actually went on their podcast yesterday. So keep an eye out for that episode.

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, no way!

Ryan Chaw: I talked about student housing. Yeah, I did. On the Rookie podcast.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Ryan Chaw: On the Rookie podcast that they just started out. Yeah. And then there’s some books you guys can definitely pick up. “Rich Dad Poor Dad” is definitely a go-to. There’s “Millionaire Real Estate Investor” by Gary Keller. Gary Keller is one of the big names. He actually owns Keller Williams realty company. There’s also — let’s see — there’s some mindset books I can recommend. There’s the “High Performance Habits” by Brendon Burchard. That one’s a great one. Oh man, there’s a lot out there.

Tim Ulbrich: But those are good. Those are good recommendations. And we will — I subscribe to the Real Estate Rookie podcast, so when we see that go live, we’ll link to that in our show notes as well. So.

Ryan Chaw: Oh, that’s awesome.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. No, that’s awesome to see a pharmacist investor featured on the Bigger Pockets site. And what’s the best way for our listeners to contact you and follow the journey that you’re on?

Ryan Chaw: Yeah, definitely. So I have this free PDF for anyone just trying to get started in real estate investing, especially the student housing market and some about the strategy that I use. You can actually get that at my homepage at www.NewbieRealEstateInvesting.com. That’s www.NewbieRealEstateInvesting.com.

Tim Ulbrich: Very cool. So just logged on there, we’ll link to that in the show notes, “The unique and highly profitable strategy I use to go from newbie real estate investor building a portfolio that generates just under $11,000 every month.” So we’ll link to that in the show notes. Ryan, thank you so much for coming back on the show, for sharing your journey, and I’m sure this won’t be the last time. So I appreciate your time.

Ryan Chaw: Oh yeah, for sure. Thanks again, Tim. I appreciate being on the show, and I hope your audience got a lot of good tips there. And you know, real estate’s all about connections, guys.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And to the YFP community, as always, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode, please go and leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts, wherever you listen to the show each and every week. And if you haven’t yet done so, make sure to join us in the Your Financial Pharmacist Facebook group, over 6,000 pharmacy professionals that are committed to helping one another on their path towards achieving financial freedom. Have a great rest of your day.

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YFP 168: How Blake and Zac Analyze Real Estate Deals

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How Blake and Zac Analyze Real Estate Deals

Blake Johnson and Zac Hendricks talk about how they joined forces to build a successful real estate portfolio and investment strategy. They talk about their individual roles when investing in properties, the make-up of their current portfolio, and why they chose to focus on real estate investing. Blake and Zac lay out all the secrets on how to analyze real estate deals and break down the numbers on two of their own investment properties.

About Today’s Guests

Blake Johnson is a 2013 graduate of the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences. Upon graduation, he married his wife Kristyn and he began working in a small town independent pharmacy. He worked there for 2 years and is now working in Conway, Arkansas at a local independent pharmacy. Upon graduation, Blake decided that paying off student loans would be a top priority, while still being able to travel and save for his retirement. After three and a half years, he was able to pay off his and his wife’s student loans. Since then, Blake has been able to increase his savings and start purchasing rental property. In his spare time, he enjoys traveling as much as he can and teaching others about finances.

Zac Hendricks is a 2013 Bachelor’s of Business graduate from University of Central Arkansas with an emphasis on Innovation and Entrepreneurship. Zac worked as an intern for a financial advising firm while finishing his degree at UCA. This is when he bought his first property. Upon graduation Zac got a job working in logistics at Maverick Transportation. While moving up in the ranks at Maverick he and his wife Mav purchased 7-8 more properties which eventually led to their finding financial freedom to change careers and working in the family business—Hendricks Remodeling. Zac and Mav find their most joy in using their business skills to fund missionaries in the 10/40 window and expanding the Kingdom of God.

Summary

Blake Johnson and Zac Hendricks met 7 years ago at a church they were both attending and decided to join forces as partners in real estate investing. Blake handles the financing and acquisition of properties, analyzes numbers and focuses on networking and finding deals. Zac assesses the homes with a quick inspection to determine rehab costs and rehabs the properties. They run numbers together to see if the deal is a good one. Zac’s wife manages the properties. Together they own 14 rental properties and a lot. They are currently renting 13 of the properties and are in the process of rehabbing one.

Blake breaks down their process for analyzing real estate deals and shares that there are several areas that need to be looked at, including accounting for capital expenditures, vacancy, and property management. Blake and Zac share the numbers from two very different real estate properties they purchased and the rehab process for each.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Blake and Zac, thanks for joining the show, and welcome to the podcast.

Blake Johnson: Good to be on here.

Zac Hendricks: Yeah, hey.

Tim Ulbrich: Appreciate you guys taking time. Excited to dig into this topic as we’ve been talking on the show for some time now wanting to bring more real estate investing content and happy to do that with Blake, who was on the show, Episode 082, with the ultimate mentor, Joe Baker, to talk about how he and his wife paid off $150,000 of student loans in 3.5 years. So excited to have him back on the show to talk about another part of his journey as real estate investing. And we’re also going to have his partner in real estate investing, Zac, join us to talk about how they work together, how they collaborate, what are their goals related to real estate investing, and my hope is as we have with other stories, that those that are interested and just hearing this for the first or second time, learning more, or perhaps taking that next step that these stories will not only be something that you can learn from but also something that you can take action. So Blake, it’s been awhile, how’s the debt-free life been treating you? And what have you guys been up to?

Blake Johnson: Debt-free life is incredible. I guess since the last time we spoke, my wife and I have done a lot of traveling, a lot of investing. It seems like when you’re out of debt, you can invest more. I guess that’s part of the reason to get out of debt. One of the big things that’s happened with us, we were able to adopt a child from birth, private adoption. And being out of debt made that a lot more smoother process. That was probably the most excitement that we’ve had in a long time. He’s actually turned a year old today.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. And congratulations. I know you and I had a chance to talk about that a couple weeks ago. I think just another example of the power of being debt-free and what that means for goals and being able to free up some of the cash flow and achieve some of those other things that are important. So Zac, excited that you’re able to join us today and really excited to hear more about your real estate journey and specifically how you and Blake are working together. Tell us a little bit more about yourself and ultimately why you got into real estate investing.

Zac Hendricks: Yeah, so we — my wife and I actually got into it kind of accidentally. My brother and I, whenever we were in college, we bought our first house together. We had no credit at all, I mean, we were broke joke. But we had a banker that we were close with. He said, “Hey, if you can bring some money, you can buy this house together.” So he helped us kind of get credit for that and then helped us buy the first house. My wife and I ended up buying that property from my brother when we got married. And we lived in it for a little while. Then we started moving around with the company I was with. And we had hardly any equity. It just didn’t seem like — it was so close to the university, the house was so close to the university that we said, it’ll be worth a lot more later on, so let’s hold onto it. So we rented it out and we didn’t know anything. My family has rental properties, my parents, but we didn’t know anything about it. So we got started in it and made a ton of mistakes. The first mistake was my wife let me be the landlord. That was a nightmare. We ended up with attic ladders torn out of the ceiling, three pitbulls left in the backyard, and about three dump trailer loads of trash in the backyard. So that was when my wife fired me from being a landlord, and now she does all of that. And anyway, so since then, we were moving around. We went to North Carolina, then we went Texas for a little while. And while we were moving, we decided, hey, let’s buy another property, just see how it is. So we bought one site unseen from North Carolina. It seemed like a pretty straightforward, easy deal, so we just bought it. And we realized that we could manage these properties from wherever we were and that it was really not that hard as long as you had the right systems in place. So when we moved to Texas, we ended up buying three or four more properties while we lived there and just realized, man, this is an awesome way to have some extra income, it’s a great way to just build wealth and at the time, we had set salaries so kind of like, well, this is the best way to kind of get ahead of the game. So in that time, we realized also if we’re not going to be doing ministry full-time, this is a great way for us to be able to support missionaries and other people that are local, and we can do a lot more in real estate than we can just with our regular 8-5 jobs.

Tim Ulbrich: So Zac, if I understood you correctly, you still have properties in multiple states? And then you guys are doing the property management for those?

Zac Hendricks: OK, yeah, let me clarify that. So actually, while we were moving around, we were buying properties in Conway. We lived in North Carolina and Texas. But we bought the properties in Conway.

Tim Ulbrich: Got it. OK. When I heard property management and how easy it was at a distance, I was like, oh, that’s interesting, love to hear more. So that makes sense. You were buying properties in Conway while you were in different locations. And Blake, talk to us about where your experience in real estate investing met Zac’s experience, ultimately how and why you guys came together — I’m assuming there’s some shared vision, perhaps different skill sets — and tell us a little bit more about what that collaboration and partnership looks like.

Blake Johnson: So Zac and I met about seven years ago at the church that him and his wife were attending at the time. And like he said, they moved off because of jobs. And funny thing happened, my wife and I were looking at rental properties, and we moved churches in Conway. And the first Sunday that we were there, Zac and his wife were visiting that church. And one thing led to another, we ended up in the same small group. And I can remember it vividly: We went out fishing on a local lake, and I started to express my love to want to get into rental property. So we talked back and forth, and we left it at, look, if you can find some properties, we can partner up. And so that started from there, and then our first deal, we landed two homes within the first deal. And so we’ve been there ever since.

Tim Ulbrich: And Zac, building off that, if we had to kind of divide roles and responsibilities that come with both acquiring, finding the deal, running the numbers, perhaps overseeing any work that needs to be done and then either renting it or selling it, how would you divide the roles and responsibilities and what each of you bring to the table.

Zac Hendricks: Yeah, so it was really interesting. My wife and I had kind of prayed about like the opportunities to find other people to get in with, and it just never really came. Blake and Kristin kind of came out of nowhere, and it ended up being just the perfect partnership because before, I was always the one finding the deals, and my wife was excited about it. She was ready to buy every house that we looked at, and I always had to tell her no or maybe, you know? Because she was just so excited about it. And then when Blake and Kristin came along, Blake just really dove into the acquisition side of things and also the financing side of things. So you know, I already had relationships with banks, he had relationships with some of the same banks, and so we both were kind of — we both still kind of handle the financing, but Blake analyzes things way more than I could ever dream of doing. He’s just so much more analytical than I am. His main thing is networking with people, talking with people, whether it’s wholesalers, whether it’s realtors, just other landlords, he’s really good about just meeting people, telling them what we’re doing, and then out of that, we found some deals, even networking with some local attorneys has helped. So then my role now, I mean, people ask me how we find deals, and I go, well I don’t know, you have to have a Blake, because I don’t look for deals anymore. You know, I’ll go and look at houses whenever we, whenever Blake finds one. I can kind of quickly do a ballpark of how much it’s going to cost to rehab or if it’s something we shouldn’t even be looking at or whatever and kind of a quick inspection of the property. But really, that’s the end of acquisition for me. And then we run the numbers together, so Blake usually has a — he can run numbers in his head super fast, so he usually just runs the numbers and tells me, yeah, let’s just do it. Let’s go for it. And then we kind of work from there. And then my wife, like I said before, she fired me from landlording, so she is the property manager. And so it really works well. We have two children, a 4-year-old — an almost 4-year-old and a 1.5-year-old. It’s great because she stays home now. She used to be a schoolteacher, now she stays home and manages properties full-time and then works for me with our remodeling company. So it’s really great because she handles the property management, she gets to be the bad guy and good guy where I just go in and I can fix things that are broken. So it works out really well.

Tim Ulbrich: So our listeners can understand before we go into the two recent purchases and kind of hear behind the scenes of how you guys think through and analyze those properties, if you could each talk for a moment — Blake, if you could start, and then Zac, talk about what is your portfolio — and I’m guessing there’s a lot of overlap, so feel free to clarify that. What is your portfolio? And types of properties you’re generally looking at investing in or specializing in as it looks to your portfolio? And then ultimately, what is some of the purpose, the vision, the why behind what you hope to gain from real estate long-term? We’ve heard a little bit of that, you just mentioned, Zac, what some of that has afforded to your family in opportunities, and Blake, I know you and I have had this conversation one-on-one. But I think it would be really helpful for our listeners to hear not only a little bit more about your portfolio and strategy but also what the why and purpose is for you and your family as it relates to real estate investing. So Blake, you want to start us off?

Blake Johnson: Yeah, I can start off. Zac and I, I don’t have any properties by myself. All of our properties that I’m involved in are in our LLC. Currently, we own 14 properties and the lot. So we can get into that later. That one’s a fun example. But anyways, we have 14 homes right now. 13 are rented, and one we’re rehabbing. And that’s where we’re at. Ultimately, my purpose down the road would try to get to 40 or 50 properties and have those paid off by the time I’m 50. I always want to be a pharmacist. I always want to be in the community. That’s what I went to school for. But if times get tough or if something happens health-wise, this is a fallback plan for replacement of your income and for retirement down the road. You never know how the economy’s going to be. People always have to rent homes. So this affords us a different avenue outside of the stock market. Asking about our purpose for the business, funny you ask that. Our corporate name is IHM Properties, which stands for In His Name. So our purpose for the creation of this business is not only to provide for our family financially down the road but also to be able to give back to missionaries overseas or to people locally. The wealth that we create is not only ours, but it’s to give to others.

Tim Ulbrich: And Zac, for you and your family and for the overall business, again, I’m sensing a lot of overlap, but anything else there to add?

Zac Hendricks: Yeah, no, he pretty well covered it. That’s our main goals, just to be able to have the financial freedom for ourselves but not just keep it to ourselves, be able to give back to others.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. So let’s dig into two recent purchases that you made as a part of your LLC. Talk through how you analyzed those deals to determine that you ultimately would move forward with them. And again, I think as we talk through some of the numbers and talk about your thought process, I think this will help our listeners see that are either building a portfolio or looking at that first one or just here to learn more get a little bit more information to hear from those that have been down this path. So before we crunch some numbers, Blake, give us a bird’s eye view of how you analyze deals. What’s your process? What are you looking for when a property comes your way? Where are you looking for properties? I heard Zac mention earlier some networking and things that are going on. Are you looking at the MLS? Are you primarily getting these from wholesalers or in contact with realtors? Numbers that you run? Talk us through not only where those properties are sourced from but then your thought process when you’re evaluating one of those.

Blake Johnson: OK, that sounds great. I think the first thing before we dive into the how and to the where and all that type of stuff is just to talk about a few figures that’s used in the rental business. There are just only a couple of them, but when evaluating a property, there’s three things that I look at. One of them is called capital expenditures or if you ever dive into the literature, that’s shortened for capex, which basically means your normal maintenance and also your long-term maintenance of the property. So your long-term maintenance is your roof, your heating and air units, your water heaters, all that type of stuff. So capex is one of the numbers that we look at. Another number that you have to run is one called vacancy. People always don’t stay at your house, and that would be nice if we had people stay there for 20 years straight. But your turnover is every couple of years, you’re going to have get new people in. You’re going to have to rehab it in between tenants. And so vacancy is a number that we run into our calculations. And the last one, if you have it — and I always recommend people to put it in there anyway — property management. Most people that start out kind of manage their properties themselves. They get tired of it anyway. So we always run that in all of our numbers. How we run numbers, when we find a house, the big thing we are looking for is the net cash flow. We’re not trying to pull any money off the business, but we want to make sure that these homes pay for themselves and has a little bit of room of a cushion so if interest rates go to 10 or 12%, there’s enough room in the numbers to cover that. So when we look at a house, we usually take — instead of looking at the purchase price, we look at what we think it will rent for and we take percentages off that gross rent. So for instance, if we use a home that we think will rent for $1,000, we use a 10% for capital expenditures, 5% for vacancy, and then 5% for property management. And so off that $1,000 rental home, we would use a number of $800 as our I guess gross margin. So if that gross margin can cover the payment, your taxes and your insurance and still net around $100 to us, that’s a good deal. And in any market, whether it’s an up or down market, you’re going to stay afloat. It’s a very conservative number, and it helps keep us — helps us sleep at night. So that’s how we run numbers. The second thing would be is a purchase price. I think Zac mentioned, we love to purchase all of ours with 0 money down, and that sounds intriguing, but the only way to get in homes $0 down is to have homes that need remodeling. So let’s take that $100,000 home, most banks if they’re local or small banks will lend up to 85% of the appraised value of the house. I would put appraised value in parentheses because appraised value is the value it appraises at after the repairs are done. Let’s use that $100,000 house, say we find it for $50,000. We go in it and see that it needs $20,000 worth of repairs, we can take that repair list to the bank, they’ll get it appraised, and the appraiser will say, “Hey, we’re putting in new flooring, we’re putting in new paint, I’m going to appraise this house at $100,000 after the repairs are done.” And so the bank on this home would loan up to $85,000. So as long as we can keep our repairs under the $85,000, so if it’s $20,000, we’re able to get in that house with $0 down. Still got really good equity.

Tim Ulbrich: And real quick on that, Blake, to me that also just goes to an important point about building some of those relationships. So what is the strategy there, you know, for folks that are looking to start their first or second property and not only is the analysis side of it or perhaps other pieces of it overwhelming, but then to begin to think about how those relationships are formed, what was your strategy in forming those relationships? And was it one bank that you were primarily working with? Or did it take you some time to find that lender that was a good fit?

Blake Johnson: I think one of the biggest advantages pharmacists have is our W2 income. The average salary across the United States is around $120,000, you know, that’s 3x the average wage for any normal working family. So that’s an advantage to pharmacists because what banks look at is not what your profit is from stocks or your profit is from bonuses. They want to know what your W2 income is. They look at what your salary and wages are. So as pharmacists, we have an advantage when we walk into a bank to forge that relationship. They want you. You’re a safe investor. You’ve got extra income coming in each month more than most people. And so that was an advantage for me. But on the relationship side, Conway’s a very small town. And we’re involved with a pretty good size church, and so out of our church, there’s two local bankers that I’ve developed relationships with. And those are the ones we use. And they’re local banks, so they’re real easy to work with. So we started working with them, and because of our conservative ways to approach purchasing homes and also just the income side, it makes financing homes pretty easy as far as that.

Zac Hendricks: Yeah, and I want to piggyback off that a little bit. With the finding a bank, if somebody’s new to investing and they’re trying to find a loan, find a lender, Blake hit on it, but the small bank, the small, local bank is perfect. A lot of the big banks just can’t — they don’t even care about you. And I don’t mean that in a terrible way. They have bigger fish to fry. The small banks, they care about their community, and they care about that you’re fixing up the neighborhood or that you’re just buying in the neighborhood. They care about that a lot more than they care about you. And so I’ve found that when you go to a big bank, you’re not going to find anybody that really cares a whole lot. But when you go to the small, local banks, they’re going to want to invest in a lot more.

Tim Ulbrich: So Zac, I can jive as Blake is talking about running numbers and analyzing and crunching it, like that’s speaking my language. What is not speaking my language is what I perceive to be your role, which is estimating rehab costs and kind of seeing that piece through. So talk us through when Blake calls you or messages you and says, “Hey, I think we’ve got a good one. I need you to look at it,” where does that knowledge come from that you feel comfortable walking through a property to estimate those costs? Where did you acquire that knowledge? What are the things that you’re thinking about, looking at? And you know, obviously also to protect yourself against some of the bigger items, I’m sure often what you expect and what is reality may not always line up. So talk to us about not only your process of doing that but also how you account for some of the margin of error that may happen just from the unknown.

Zac Hendricks: Yeah. So it’s been a learning process. I will say, I have an unfair advantage. My dad is a remodeling contractor. And so he’s owned — I actually work for him now — Hendricks Remodeling in Conway since 1987. So and he’s been in the business for longer than that. So there’s a little bit of an unfair advantage there because I’ve been around it my entire life. He put me to work for free whenever I was like 6. And so I’ve been around it, I’ve seen it, but the cost I didn’t always understand. I always knew what work went into a remodel, but I didn’t really understand the cost. And so that came in later, really with the first — whenever we were in Texas, we bought our first rehab project. And if anybody’s on here that listens to Bigger Pockets, they use the term BRRRR: Buy, Rehab, Rent, Refinance, Repeat. So that’s the strategy we’ve been at ever since that first rehab project. So before, we were just putting money in. And then we found that first rehab and we were like, oh wow, this is incredible. We don’t have to put money in. On that project, we lived in Dallas, and my brother at the time was working for my dad. I said, “Hey, run an estimate for me. How much is it going to cost to remodel?” And so I think we picked the property up for like $55,000. And then he went over there and he said, “Yeah, I mean, I think it’s going to cost blah, blah, blah.” I think the total cost was like $30,000. So I had him kind of walk me through what he was looking at as far as estimating goes. And so really, between my brother and my dad, they helped me understand the cost of things. And then from then on, it’s been experience. It’s just been we take one, we make some mistakes, now we know more. Now we know we’ve got to check the sewage every time. Now we know we’ve got to check the roof every time, the HVAC, there’s so many things now that we go, oh man, if I would have known that, that would have been better. So it’s really just getting into it. You can’t learn it without doing it in this business. You can’t just read a book or books. There is a really good resource called that Jay Scott wrote, it’s “How to Estimate Rehab Costs” is what it’s called. And double check me on the title. It is really good. It just talked about going from the top down for rehabs. I think he’s talking about mainly flips. But I read through that, and with some of the stuff I already knew, it really helped to just kind of oh yeah, I never really checked for rotted facia or whatever it is. I probably need to start checking that. And so he kind of gives you a little bit of a checklist — I don’t want to use a checklist, but whenever we walk through a house, I’m constantly just looking, just trying to figure out what issues there are. And then a lot of times, now me and Blake will walk into a house, and I’ll say, well, it’s going to cost this, this, this. And Blake will go, oh come on, we could do it for cheaper on this house. So there’s a little bit of back-and-forth there, and then we eventually come to a number.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s the sign of a good partnership. So appreciate that story. And I’m glad you mentioned the BRRRR concept as well, it’s one of the Bigger Pockets resources. We will link to those in the show notes, the estimating rehab costs book that you mentioned, the Bigger Pockets podcast, the Bigger Pockets blog. I’m sure we’ll talk about another Bigger Pockets resource at some point in the rest of the show. So we’ll link to those in the show notes, great resources. And I’m glad you mentioned BRRRR because Blake, it triggered my memory. One of the things I wanted to come back to, when you said nothing down, point of clarification: Are you referring to that when the deal was done at the point of refinancing, you didn’t leave any cash in the deal? But you ultimately had to obviously come with cash to purchase the property and do the rehab? Or do you have some other source of funds that you actually aren’t bringing cash up front to get started? Because I think that’s a hangup point for many folks getting started, even if they’re looking at a refinance down the road is that they still have the time period where they’ve got to purchase the property and fund the rehab and they may or may not be ready with that cash.

Blake Johnson: So yeah, that’s most of our properties that we do, the banks will let us come to closing with 10% of the purchase price of the home. But like I said, they’ll loan up to 85% of the appraised value. So the two local banks that we use, as long as the improvement plus that 10% down plus the purchase price is under the 85%, we’re able to pull our money back out. So on that $100,000 home, we’ll get it under contract, we’ll go to closing, the bank will provide the purchase price is $50,000, they’ll provide 85-90% of that, and then we’ll have to bring 10% of the purchase price down. But after closing, we have a pool of money that we can pull from to pay ourself back and also do the improvements. So you do have to have some money to come to the table to purchase the deal. But if you run your numbers and you can get your rehabs under that 85% margin, you can get your money back.

Tim Ulbrich: Got it. Thank you for that clarification. OK, let’s dig into a couple properties as examples of what you guys have been working on. One will be a little bit more traditional, the second we could categorize as maybe more interesting and creative, just to give two different examples and the contrast of how you approached each. So Blake, let’s start with the traditional property. Tell us about this one. How did you find it? Bedrooms, bathrooms, square footage, purchase price? And then we’ll have Zac talk through some of the rehab costs.

Blake Johnson: So most of our properties, I guess to clarify in the beginning of the question, all of ours are single family homes. We’ve tried a few duplexes. We’re actually looking at a few now, but we’ve looked at three and never made any of the numbers work. So all of our properties are all single family homes. And the first several came from the MLS. Up until about a year and a half ago, you could look on Conway’s website about once a month, find a deal. But it’s now been flooded with young investors, so the time of looking and finding a good deal on the MLS has really kind of gone away. So I’ve got relationships with a few lawyers, a couple of wholesalers in the area, and of course a bunch of realtors. And so the last several deals we’ve had have been from off-market deals from realtors or an estate type thing or an auction. So the first house that we’ll talk about is actually an estate purchase from a lawyer that I know. He’s the one that handles all of our LLC stuff. And I was discussing with him about how we were looking to buy some properties and if they ever have an estate sale come up where they’re needing a home purchased, we would be glad to do that. And about a day later, he texted us back about a house he had that was a four-bedroom, two-bath house. It was 1,800 square feet. And the guy had passed away over a year ago. The children were wanting to sell the house. So we went and looked at it. It’s 1,800 square feet, like I said, four-bedroom, two-bath. And we purchased it for $78,500. I’ll have Zac talk about some of the improvements that we made. But anyways, it appraised at — with the improvements — at $134,000. We put $20,000 into it and took a little bit more extra on the loan to cover a couple other projects we had going on. So our loan amount on that is $105,000. The good thing about that is our loan-to-value or how much we owe and how much it appraises for is 78%. So out the door on this one, we came out with 22% equity, which is music to our ears because anything below 80% loan-to-value ratio is really good and makes banks happy. So we’re pretty happy with that. It rents — we were excited; we got it rented for $1,350. So if you do the whole —

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Blake Johnson: Yeah, if you do the whole calculation like we talked about, the principle taxes and insurance on that is like $822. The capex or the 10% in rent is $135. And then the 5% for vacancy and property managing are $67 each. And so that one rents each month $258. So that’s one of our better deals there.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. And Zac, do you want to talk through a little bit of the rehab and what was included in there and what was or was not on budget along the way?

Zac Hendricks: Yeah, so this one is an oddball because we budgeted for a lot more than we ended up spending. Somehow or another, we ended up saving a lot of money. I think some of the subs that we used ended up being a lot cheaper than what we had used in the past. I think we budgeted like $27,000 for the rehab, and it ended up being like $17,000 or something like that. So that was a — we saved a lot of money on that one. Yeah, so it was really just a lipstick remodel is what I call it, anyways. We just — floors, paint, the guy had dogs, and they peed all over the floors. It’s a slab — it’s built on a slab, the house is. But somewhere along the way, somebody did a little addition on the front and had a little, a small — I don’t know if you can even call it a crawlspace, but it’s kind of a crawlspace, and it had wooden subfloors. So we had to tear all that out because the dogs — I mean, that smell is just terrible. So we tore out all the subfloors and then redid those. But that’s really, I mean, we just kills the whole house, and then it smelled like a brand new house. It wasn’t so bad. The next property that I think you’re wanting to talk about is a lot more interesting. This one was really basic: floors, paint, we put some granite countertops in, built a closet to make it an official bedroom, I mean, that’s really it on that one.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think what was helpful about this one was just for folks to hear the numbers but also Blake, I like what you said about when I hear about you investing in Arkansas and I think you hear those numbers, 1,800-square foot, 4-bed, 2-bath, $78,500, obviously it needed some work, but there’s other people listening in other parts of the country that are like, I don’t even see those numbers exist, you know, in our part of the country. But what I heard you say is, you know, the relationships are really important. And here was a good example of a relationship with a lawyer. But you know, not necessarily just thinking you’re going to be able to find deals on the MLS but getting out to local meetups, taking advantage of those relationships, being a part of a community and getting creative in different ways to be able to find these types of properties and deals. So let’s dig into the other recent purchase. I guess again, you could categorize this as being more interesting, more creative, than the traditional one. So why don’t you start us off, Blake. Talk to us about this property. Why was it more interesting and I guess more nontraditional?

Blake Johnson: Sure. Before we dig into that, funny thing about the last house as far as rehab. We had to replace the ceiling fans. They had miniature ceiling fans in there. And pretty sure that Boeing sent some of their propellers into this place.

Zac Hendricks: Yeah, that was funny.

Blake Johnson: That thing was the loudest and most powerful fan I’ve ever seen in my life. It would just blow you away. The one other thing with that last house, something that you could let people know when they’re looking at homes is that one had two living rooms. It had the main living room and then there was an addition onto the house. Most of the time, you look at your rent, how much you’re going to charge for rent based on bedrooms and baths, and so that one already had three bedrooms, two baths, but we were actually able to spend $1,000 extra to frame in a closet, and we were able to increase our rent by about $150 a month. So if you run your return on investment there, it took us only eight months to recoup our costs in putting in a closet. So when you’re looking at a property, you’ve got to be creative because small additions like that can get you pretty good return. So let’s talk the second home. This one is really cool. So we bought this one at an auction. We actually paid cash for this. First auction we ever went to, nobody showed up at all. It was an auction that a local — the lawyer that sent us the first one told us about would be coming up. So we showed up on a Tuesday morning at 10 a.m., thinking that were going to be a whole crowd of people. About 9:59 rolled around, nobody rolled up, and then finally, we saw a guy, a gentleman walking up with a clipboard. He came up and I said, that’s got to be the guy. And sure enough, it was. Nobody else showed up, so we said, “What’s opening bid?” He said, “Open in bid is $35,500.” So we had to bid $1 over that. So we bought the property for $35,501. It was the craziest thing, he said he’s never seen where nobody shows up. So apparently we were lucky then. So this home is a two-bedroom, one-bath house. It’s around 1,100 square feet. But it’s in a really desirable area of downtown Conway. It’s right by downtown, a lot of people were tearing down homes, building up new ones, rehabbing them, I guess it’s like in your traditional Old Town downtown for people who are wanting to redo them and make them real nice. And so this one’s a two-bedroom, one-bath. I don’t want to spoil the fun, but we’re actually turning it into a three-bedroom, two-bath. Zac can talk about that. So we bought it for $35,500. Our rehab on the house is going to be right around $60,000. But the total value of the house is $125,000. So our loan on this house will be around $85,000, so we’ll have about $40,000 in equity.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Blake Johnson: Yeah, the funny thing is — and we didn’t even know about it, when we purchased the house, we had gone and looked through the windows and some stuff, just to check it out because you can’t get in them at all. So we purchased the house, the next day we drove by, and Zac goes, Blake, this is big enough to split a lot off. I said, “There’s no way.” Sure enough, it was. We spent $1,000 and got it zoned off to have an additional lot. That additional lot is worth about $35,000, which is the same price we purchased the house for.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Blake Johnson: This rezoning the lot paid for the purchase of the property. So our plans with that once lumber goes down the next year or so, is to build a new house there and rent that out. Anyways, that’s a fun part of that. I don’t know if you want to dive into the rent, all the numbers now or if we want to talk about the rehab and go on from there.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, let’s talk about the rehab and then we’ll come back to the rent. So Zac, do you want to talk about some of the rehab and the costs and what was involved and some of the creativity to turn that into a three-bed?

Zac Hendricks: Yeah, you bet. So yeah. So whenever we got this, we realized we could either tear this house down and really build two really nice houses. Or we could figure out how to make this house work. It was two-bedroom, one-bath. Those just don’t really rent that great. They do, but we prefer a three-bedroom, two-bath. And so we were trying to figure it out, my company, we have an in-house interior designer. So I just kind of put him on the task. I was like, man, we’ve got to figure out how to move some walls. I’ll work on the structure side of things, you do the interior part, make it look pretty. So he messed around with it, we went through probably five or six different design changes of how we’re going to do it. Finally, we figured it out, the best way to do it. We had to tear out two interior walls. So I’ll back up a little bit. I didn’t want to do an addition, a full-on addition, because I didn’t want to build out of the house and have to do all that. We can do that, but I’m in the business, I know how much it costs, I just didn’t really want to mess with it on this property. And so we said, if we’re going to do anything to add bedroom and bathroom, it’s got to be within the walls. So we tore out two interior walls and then were able to build a bedroom on the front side of the house and then build a bathroom in between the other two bedrooms — the original two bedrooms. And so — which we’re still in the process of that. So we just got done framing. But with that, we had to move front door, we had to add a window, change out a window, just to make it all right because the front door originally would have been right in the middle of the bedroom, of the new bedroom. So we had to move that over about 5 feet and put a window back in that bedroom for egress purposes. And then we ended having to reside the whole front. And then it’s in the historic overlay district of Conway, so if you’re doing anything to the exterior, it has to go through committee, a design committee. So they had a couple suggestions to make it look better. So with that, we ended up doing a little bit more than what we planned on. But it’s actually going to make it look really great. So can’t hate them for it. Yeah, so we’re in the process of the crawlspace, and it had a lot of foundation issues. Thought we’d fix them all on the front end, and then whenever we tore out some of the walls, found even more foundation issues. So we had to stop working on framing and work on the house for a little while. But now it’s actually a great house. Most of the lumber is new in that house now.

Tim Ulbrich: I guess it’s hard to go wrong when you mentioned the discovery of that extra lot that could be parced off that would have value equal to what you paid for it up front. So awesome bonus, but it sounds like it would have been a good property regardless, and obviously the creativity you had really helped in that. Blake, run the numbers for us on this one.

Blake Johnson: One of the questions you had is how did we finance it. So we paid cash for it, and then we went to a bank with an improvement list, and our total loan on this is going to be $85,000. So our projected rent is going to be around $1,200. The payment with taxes and insurance will be about $650. Our capex on $1,200 is $120, vacancy is $60, and then property management is $60. This is our best deal to date. And so just on the one home alone, we’re going to net profit around $316 a month. And that’s saving back for all those unknowns. So this is — normally we’re trying to get $100 a home, and this one, we’re getting 3x that amount.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. And I think for our listeners to hear two different examples — and obviously these are just a couple properties in your overall portfolio. And certainly want to mention that we’ve given two examples where the numbers are really good and you guys have been really successful overall. But you’ve also invested a lot of time, a lot of energy, a lot of effort, lots of relationships, lots of learning, lots of experience, lots of good connections. And so I don’t want to make this sound easier than it necessarily is but also don’t want to underestimate the work that you guys have put in to be successful and certainly I’m sure there have been some difficulties along the way. I do want to wrap up, Zac and Blake, I know we’ve talked about Bigger Pockets as a great resource. Other resources, books, podcasts, blogs, local meetups, what recommendations would you guys have for people that are looking to get started?

Blake Johnson: For me, the biggest thing, like we’ve mentioned, was Bigger Pockets. If you go on their website, they endorse several books. If you’re wanting to do your own landlording, Brandon Turner’s got a book that he wrote. They’ve got note investing on a home, so any facet of real estate you want to get into, there’s a book, there’s a blog or something you can get into. So if you want to educate yourself and get you a real estate degree or a doctorate in real estate, you can go on that website and come out pretty smart.

Tim Ulbrich: What about you, Zac? Other resources?

Zac Hendricks: Yeah, I mean, Bigger Pockets is probably the most. But part of it is getting inspiration from other people. So you know, reading books on it. We’re both — me and Blake are both big readers, so we’re reading about real estate as well. I went through a period where I think one year I read like 35 books just on real estate. And that was my college education for it, you know? I needed somebody else’s skills to kind of learn it. So there was a lot of them. I can’t name them all, but one of them I would say for inspiration purposes not for — I wouldn’t say it’s good for life goals, but it’s “Rich Dad Poor Dad.” It’s a great book for the overall goal of real estate and financial freedom and just really a business. But there were so many more good books out there. “Think and Grow Rich” is another good one. But there’s a lot of great books out there that people can read. But Bigger Pockets has a lot of resources. And honestly, going to Bigger Pockets and getting on the forums and saying, “Hey, I’m running into this issues,” I mean, there’s 1,000 people that can say they’ve had the exact same issue. So that’s where I’ve learned a lot is just saying, “Hey, I’m getting turned down on this,” or, “This isn’t working out,” or, “I’ve had this weird floor plan,” you know, people get on there and love to answer. And so that’s a great resource.

Tim Ulbrich: Great recommendations. We’ll link, again, to those in the show notes, Bigger Pockets website, Bigger Pockets podcast, they just launched recently a Real Estate Rookie podcast, which I think is fantastic. We’ll link to “Rich Dad Poor Dad,” Robert Kiyosaki, I think you mentioned “Think and Grow Rich,” Napoleon Hill, great recommendations. And I like what you said earlier, I can’t remember Zac or Blake, that you know, learning has its place and certainly there’s wisdom in getting that education, but I think — I’m only a property in, but I felt like I learned so much from that first property that the learning was helpful, but I felt like I was at that point where more books and more learning, I just needed to jump in and kind of figure it out and recognize that I was going to make some mistakes along the way and that it was a learning process and you build from those. And obviously here you guys are with a handful of properties and I’m sure many more ahead of you. And each one I’m sure the process gets a little bit more refined. I love seeing successful partnerships like this, you know. Not to say there hasn’t been challenges along the way. If there haven’t, awesome. But I’m a big fan when there’s shared values, when there’s shared vision and there’s good relationship, the value that can come from a partnership, especially when you have complementary skill sets and just being able to bounce ideas off of one another, to be able to move that forward, especially here as you guys have a shared vision for what you’re trying to do as your why behind real estate investing. Really cool to see and highlight this as an example. So Blake, Zac, really appreciate you guys taking time to come on the show and share your story with the YFP community.

Blake Johnson: Appreciate you having us on.

Zac Hendricks: Yeah.

Blake Johnson: It was a blast.

Zac Hendricks: Absolutely.

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YFP 167: Must Know Real Estate Terminology

Posted on by yfpadmin

Must Know Real Estate Terminology

David Bright, a pharmacist, pharmacy educator and real estate investor talks about why he views real estate investing as an important part of his financial plan, how he got started in real estate investing, and key real estate investing terms and concepts.

Summary

David Bright teaches at Ferris State University and loves his job, so the idea of getting into real estate investing didn’t come about as a way to retire early or to escape a career he didn’t enjoy. David’s family dabbled in real estate properties and he saw how those properties supported his family members’ retirement income, especially after the mortgage was paid in full. David and his wife decided to pursue real estate investing as a way to diversify their retirement income and to fund life experiences such as vacations along the way.

David shares his journey in real estate investing which began with a fixer-upper he and his wife purchased in 2009. They sold the property 5 years later for more than what they paid for it. They moved to Michigan and purchased a HUD foreclosure condo that they did some work to and were able to rent out when their family outgrew the condo. House prices increased in their town so they looked elsewhere for their next property and purchased a home in Muskegon, Michigan that they were able to BRRRR (buy, rehab, rent, refinance, repeat).

David also breaks down some key concepts and terms in real estate investing like the 1% rule, BRRRR, appreciation and short sale, among others.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: David, welcome to the show.

David Bright: Hey, thank you.

Tim Ulbrich: So long time in the making, you and I have known each other for a long time, all the way back to our PGY1 community pharmacy residency days here in Ohio. And we’ve had an opportunity to know each other further in the academic pharmacy circles and more recently with some real estate investing opportunities. So really excited to have you on the show to share some of your pharmacy journey but also some of your experiences in real estate investing as we really use this episode to highlight some of the key principles and terms of real estate investing. And we’re going to do that through some examples and stories. So David, before we jump into the weeds on the real estate investing part of the episode, give us some of your backstory in your pharmacy career.

David Bright: Absolutely. And thanks for having me on. This is a lot of fun, and it’s fantastic to see what Your Financial Pharmacist has done over the past few years to help people in their journey to financial freedom, financial independence and financial literacy. So yeah, as you mentioned, the pharmacy career story, we both went through the residency route. I had been involved in community pharmacy practice really since I was 16. One of my first jobs was a pharmacy technician in a drugstore at 16. And worked in drugstores through pharmacy school and community pharmacy residency, so that was really my passion. I love those opportunities to interact with patients and that kind of direct patient care where you’re having a lot of conversation, a lot of educational opportunity, a lot of that direct patient care that I really loved at a community practice. That led me to an academic position where some of those same kind of teaching aspects of community pharmacy certainly play into that academic pharmacy and also got to focus research on pragmatic implementation and improvement of non-dispensing pharmacy services that often took place in a community pharmacy or in am care. So that was a lot of fun. Spent five years at Ohio Northern and then since then, have taught at Ferris State University in Michigan.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. And got to give a shoutout to the Polar Bears. I actually hear from — as a Polar Bear alum myself, every once in a while, I’ll hear from other Polar Bear alums that say, “Hey, I love when you give the Polar Bears a shoutout on the podcast.” So here we are with another ONU connection. So great background, David, in terms of the community residency, the transition to the academic world, the work that you’ve done in advancing patient care services. And we’re going to approach this episode — we are both educators in terms of our work. Obviously I’m at Ohio State, you mentioned you’re working at Ferris State. But also just how we approach this topic, whether it’s financial education, literacy at large, here we’re talking about real estate. We are both teachers, and we know that we could talk about terms and go through them one-by-one and define them, but I don’t think that sticks well, right? We know that from our experience. So we’re going to use stories, we’re going to use examples, to really hopefully make some of these terms and concepts come to life. So David, first off, why real estate investing? You’ve got a full-time job, you’re busy. Why take on another job, side hustle, whatever you call it, in terms of the time it takes but also what this potentially means for your financial plan and your family?

David Bright: Yeah, that’s a great question. For me, I love my job. I love teaching Ferris, and so I’m not one of these folks that is looking to escape that and to do something else. Like I really love what I do. At the same time, I don’t want to be teaching at Ferris when I’m 85 years old. I hope to retire at some point. So my wife and I, we both had kind of extended family on either side of the family that have dabbled in owning a few rental properties and just kind of seeing that from a distance and hearing stories of how they bought a property or two in their 20s and 30s and with a 30-year mortgage, by the time they were retirement age, they had a paid-off rental house. They saw that as a way to diversify their retirement savings. And that just kind of stuck with me. It made a lot of sense as a diversification plan. And you know, in addition to that, one of the things they shared with me is that at the end of the month, if you can buy well, there’s hopefully a little bit of money left over after between the rent that you take in and the mortgage payment that you pay. And that little bit of money can fund other things. And my wife and I, we really value those experience, memory-making opportunities with the family. And so we thought, if there would be a little bit of that cash flow left over at the end of the month, we could save that up and help with the cost of vacation or other things. So not purely as a retirement play, but just kind of as a diversification for our overarching financial plan. So at the same time, you mentioned that some of this real estate work can be time-intensive if you let it. For me, I’m not remotely handy. Like I’m barely qualified to change a light bulb. Like you’re not going to find me swinging a hammer and doing things, like that’s just not me. I can’t do that. I’m a pharmacist. And so I’ve come to learn that there’s some things that I’m good and there’s some things where I’m not good at all. And so one of the nice things about real estate investing is that you don’t have to be good at swinging a hammer. Like you don’t have to be able to hang cabinets or do electrical work or any of the other things. Like by buying properties or looking at things that don’t need a ton of work, like what we’ve done, it makes it just a lot less intimidating when we’re hiring a lot of that work out. Like I’ve really not done much more than painting myself in the evenings, which is I think something that a lot of folks have done. So it’s been nice to find a way to diversify our retirement without it taking a ton of time.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and one of the things, David, that I like about that — and certainly for folks that are handy, and I’m with you in the non-handy camp, probably even to a greater degree. You know, I’ve learned to accept my limitations and lean on my strengths, which are not being handy. But I think for folks that are, certainly if it’s something you enjoy and perhaps there’s some cost savings, great. But one of the things I’ve really enjoyed observing your path in real estate investing is that you really have done a nice job of building a system and a process that factors that in, you know? And really, I would argue then even becomes more scalable because it’s not dependent on you, which could work with one or two properties. But as you’re talking about longer term goals and a bigger portfolio, building a system and a property, analyzing deals and including things like property management fees, I’m working with contractors, and not all of that depending on you I think reminds me of how somebody builds a long-term successful business that is positioned for growth. So I think folks that are just starting, as you’re beginning this path, is there an opportunity to begin this path with some of that and some of the end in mind? And that may perhaps be minimizing some of your role and involvement in that. So David, you shared a little bit of the why real estate investing. So let’s jump into the how did you begin. So talk us through that first property. And then as you’re talking through that, I’ll pick up on some of the terms and concepts, and we’ll break some of those down after that.

David Bright: Yeah, definitely. Even when talking about properties in general, like it seems like there are very few people anymore that buy a property when they’re in their 20s and they live there for 60 years and then they sell it. Like most people over time are going to own several houses, at least most people in this podcast are probably going — or listening to this podcast — are going to own several houses over time. So I think getting in that mindset of what am I looking for in these. When my wife and I, we bought our first house in 2009, and when we did that, that was at a time in the market when those like house flipping were starting to come on TV, and it was like, oh, that would be fun. I could do that. Even though I totally — like no. But we thought we would look for something that was a little bit of a fixer upper. And looking back on it, a house that needed a little bit of paint probably wasn’t the definition of a fixer upper. But that was what we looked for. And so we bought a short sale property in 2009. And over the few years of living there, kind of like most people do, we fixed it up a little bit over time. We painted it, replaced some carpet, finished the basement, those kind of things. And that was what I would consider a live-in flip because we bought the house, we fixed it up while we lived there, and then when we moved to Michigan about five years later, we were able to sell it — in between the market improving a little bit and these fixes increasing the value — we were able to sell the house for more than what we paid for it.

Tim Ulbrich: OK. So the live-in flip, you had that for about five years, is that correct?

David Bright: Correct, yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: OK. And then I know we’re not attempting to play accountant or taxes, so disclaimer, this is not tax advice. You should consult your own accountant. But talk to us broadly about what does that mean for folks that are either in a live-in flip situation or considering a live-in situation? You mentioned being able to sell that, and I believe you sold it for tax-free profit. So is there a certain time period that folks need to be thinking about in terms of the time they’re in that house before they sell?

David Bright: Yeah, so again, I’ll repeat the disclaimer that a tax attorney or anything like that.

Tim Ulbrich: You taught me that disclaimer.

David Bright: Well, and even thinking through like if people listening to this in the future should certainly consult professionals at the time. But at least at the time that we were doing this, the advice that we got was that if you live in the property for at least a two-year period and then two out of the last five if you keep it as a rental or something like that, that two-year mark is when it becomes tax-free. So you’re right, the folks that are out in these house flipping, they’re probably paying quite a bit in taxes when they buy and then immediately resell these houses. But by doing it slowly, living in the house for a few years, that became essentially tax-free gain, which helped us to buy the next house.

Tim Ulbrich: It’s amazing, David, right? When’s the last house flipping show — when did you watch the last house flipping show that talked about the taxes they paid on the properties? Never mentioned, right?

David Bright: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Tim Ulbrich: So you mentioned also that you bought it via short sale. So I want to break that down for our listeners. What is a short sale?

David Bright: Yeah. A short sale, they seemed to be more prevalent back in that ‘08-’09-2010 kind of realm because a short sale is where someone has a loan on the property that the loan balance is greater than what they’re able to sell it for. And in that situation, a lot of people refer to that as being upside down on the property because you owe more than it’s worth. And so when you go to sell that property, your option is either to bring that extra money to closing or if you don’t have the money to bring to closing, then the bank can agree to accept whatever you sell it for as payment in full, and they consider that a short sale.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

David Bright: So it’s presumably going to damage your credit pretty good because you’re not paying back the loan in full and all those kind of things. So I can’t really recommend it for people as a way to sell a house unless you’re really backed into a corner, which is the situation with the seller. He had bought this house as a brand new house just a few years before, so it worked out really well in the buyer side because we were able to get a practically new house that really just needed some kind of minor fixes, but that’s also the danger of some of these $0-down loans and some of those things that were going on back at the time.

Tim Ulbrich: And that typically — correct me if I’m wrong, David — that typically is a step before foreclosure, right? The short sale?

David Bright: Correct, yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: OK. So you mentioned the live-in flip in Ohio. You’re there for five years. And then you had alluded to your move up to the state up north not to be mentioned. So what was the game plan when you moved to the state up north? What did you guys do from there?

David Bright: Yeah, so when we were moving, we didn’t really know west Michigan at all. And so the advice that we were given is if you don’t really know the area, there’s a lot that you pay when you go to sell a house in terms of realtor fees and closing costs and all that. So if you’re not absolutely sure you want to be in that house for awhile, you probably don’t want to buy and then immediately move and buy again. So the advice we got was if you’re going to move to a new town, just rent for awhile, get to know the town, figure out where you want to be, and then buy.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.
David Bright: And that made a lot of sense until we started looking at the math. And specifically in west Michigan, we were looking at homes that we could rent, and it was at the time in the neighborhood of even upwards of $2,000 a month to rent a house in the area where we wanted to be. But then we looked at there was a condo complex just barely outside the area where we wanted to be, and there was a three-bed, two-bath condo for sale for $55,000. And so we thought, two years of $2,000 a month seems remarkably similar to just buying this $55,000. So we thought, OK, we’re going to buy the condo.

Tim Ulbrich: Math sounds good.

David Bright: So we ended up in the condo instead of renting.

Tim Ulbrich: I’m assuming foreclosed property had some work to be done. Did you put work into that? And was that an additional investment?

David Bright: Yeah, this property, the short sale kind of got us warmed up to doing a little bit of work, and so we were looking for that same kind of thing. We found a foreclosed property that was actually a HUD home. So HUD homes are where the prior owner would have had an FHA mortgage. And when there’s a foreclosure on an FHA mortgage property, the government then takes it and sells it through the HUD process, through HUDHomeStore.com. The nice thing about a HUD foreclosure is that there’s some provisions in there to help owner occupants buy these. So they’re not swooped up by investors and that kind of thing. So as an owner occupant, we didn’t have mountains of cash and some kind of big track record of house flipping or anything like that to really go in and be competitive in that space. But we were going to live there. So we thought, this is a good opportunity to buy a foreclosure. It needed some drywall work and it needed all new appliances and new flooring and paint and some of those kind of things. So it was a decent step up but still didn’t require a ton of work. It wasn’t a super intimidating failed foundation and holes in the roof or anything like that like you see on TV. It was just a foreclosure that needed a little bit of work, and so we had a great agent that helped us buy the place. The agent knew some great contractors that we were able to hire to come in and do a lot of the work before we moved into it. It ended up being a great way to get into a much more affordable living situation than a $2,000 a month rent.

Tim Ulbrich: And for a moment, I want to put some of the pieces here together. You know, you disclosed earlier that you’re not necessarily handy. And even though this property, as you mentioned, didn’t require massive work, you still mentioned drywall, other things, had to work with a contractor. And I think just that step, right — I know for me hearing that, for folks that might be starting this for the first time, that alone seems somewhat overwhelming of, OK, I’m buying a property that needs work. I’ve got to find a contractor, I haven’t hired a contractor before. Who do I trust? Do I get multiple bids? How do I even navigate this? Am I going to get ripped off? So what advice would you have for folks — you mentioned an agent connection, maybe that’s a key people can pick up on. But for the folks who are looking to get some work done as a part of a model like this or another investing scenario, how can they approach that contractor relationship to find somebody hopefully that is trustworthy, that is quality, that’s reasonably priced, with the idea that perhaps it can continue to work with that person in the future?

David Bright: That’s a great question because I think we’ve all heard the stories of some contractor that did terrible work or took the money and didn’t show up or all these kind of horror stories, right? But we found the opposite. We found — like the quote that I heard recently is that rockstars know rockstars. And so by finding a fantastic agent, that fantastic agent had a library of different contractors. Like hey, you need a plumber? Call this person, tell them I sent you. They do fantastic work. I’ve recommended them several times, they’ve done work on my home. Everybody loves this plumber. Like great, that just got really simple. So we found a plumber that way. And same with someone that could do drywall and lay flooring. I’d asked that same kind of question, they said, “Hey, call this person. They’ve done work for us, they’ve helped other people.” So it got really easy by finding that first good person and then I’m just a big believer in referrals like that because yeah, you can Google and I don’t know what you’re going to find. But referrals are really powerful for us.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think relationships, referrals, I think this is where the value of like local real estate meetups can come in. And Bigger Pockets does a great job of this, and you can find some in your community. But I’m with you, like if there’s somebody that I value and trust and have had a good relationship and they are able to recommend somebody, and then you’re starting that conversation with, “Hey, I know David, and David recommended you.” That all of a sudden builds some of the expectations of that continued good work on the part of the contractor. So I think that’s great input and advice. So you renovate your condo, David, what’s the next move then for you as it relates to your investing journey but also the personal living situation?

David Bright: Yeah, so we — at the point where we had lived in the condo for about a year, we were thinking that my kids were going to start school and we were thinking we probably want to be in a different school district and want to be a little bit closer to work, wanted to cut down the commute time and some of those kind of things. So while the condo was great for us for that season, it was a season where it wasn’t really as good of a fit anymore, so we were able to find a house and buy a house that was a better fit for us at that point, particularly after getting to know the area for some time. At that point, we thought, well, we’ve been observing family that have owned a few rentals, and it was good for them. We thought, it’s a pretty big step to go out and buy a rental property. It’s a much smaller step to just not sell a house and instead, try it out as a rental because we figured if it didn’t work out, we could always still sell the house. Like it just felt like about as low risk as we would ever have. And even a lot of the finishes and things that we did to the property, one of the recommendations that we got from, again, one of just the rockstar real estate agents that we worked with is when you’re fixing up properties, particularly at that kind of price point where for a $55,000 condo, you’re not going to go in and do $15,000 worth of super high-end granite countertops or something, you know? The quote that we heard was go Chevy, not Cadillac.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great.

David Bright: That helped us just to kind of keep the budget in mind and some of that. But with that, at the end of all that fixing up, it was in pretty decent shape. We thought, you know what, let’s try it. Again, going back to the just busy world of a pharmacist, we didn’t really know where to start with all that, so that’s where you already mentioned Bigger Pockets, and I had found Bigger Pockets just kind of Googling around online looking for how do you rent out your condo, like trying to learn this. Found a few books and just tried to figure this out kind of in the evenings, talking with my wife. And we knew of a couple people that were looking for a place to rent, so we kind of started there, just friends of friends, just kind of putting the word out that we’re looking to do this. But after about a month, we couldn’t really find anyone to rent the condo. And we thought, this isn’t going well, and it’s probably because we’re trying to do this on the side. We’re just busy people, we just don’t have the time for it. So that was our point where — just kind of like with construction work, you don’t want me replacing countertops, you don’t want me like flooring, none of that. So we had found a professional to do that. And we just did the same thing here, we found a professional property manager that was, just like we’ve been saying, a recommendation from another rockstar, and we found a rockstar property manager. She came in and met with us and walked us through what the process would be like. She took some photos and a few days, she had a showing where she bought three people through the condo. Two of the three signed an application, one of the two put down a deposit immediately. And right away, we had a tenant moving into the property. And from a numbers standpoint, we were — the property manager was able to get $150 more a month than what we couldn’t get and the property manager fee to do that was $130 a month.

Tim Ulbrich: Winning.

David Bright: Yeah. Like she ended up doing all of the work and made us more money than us trying to do it all ourselves when we just clearly didn’t have time to do it ourselves. So it ended up being a fantastic fit.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. A couple things I want to break down there, and you didn’t mention the 1% Rule directly, but I want to bring that forward as I know people may have heard that before or if they’re working at a similar situation where OK, as you had mentioned, it’s easier to not sell than perhaps buy your first rental. What is that 1% Rule as folks are trying to just gauge — and of course this is market-specific and so many nuances, just like we talked about with many of the parts of the financial plan — but as folks are trying to determine OK, what might be rent? What am I currently — what’s the house worth? How do you even begin gauge roughly what might be a valuable rental situation that somebody might determine to keep the property and turn it into a rental?

David Bright: Yeah, the 1% Rule is one that I know we’ve talked about, and it’s stuck with me over time because I first heard it from my wife’s grandfather who told me that when he was buying — like he had heard this 1% Rule. When I was later Googling around on Bigger Pockets and I read it in another book that this 1% Rule. So it’s really stuck with me. And that’s where, just for round numbers, if you have a house that’s worth $100,000. If you’re able to rent it for $1,000 a month, 1% of the value of the house every month is rent. That’s a decent rule of thumb of the math will probably work so that your rent will cover the mortgage and then some of the additional expenses like the insurance and property manager, some of those things. And you’re right, it’s a really good disclaimer that that doesn’t work in all markets, it doesn’t work in all situations. But it’s a nice rule of thumb that you know, if there’s a pharmacist out there that has a $500,000 house that they can rent for $1,500, that’s probably not going to cover the mortgage.

Tim Ulbrich: No bueno. No bueno.

David Bright: Probably not going to work. But in our case, it was a $55,000 condo and so if it rented for a little over $1,000, that more than met the 1% Rule and that was kind of how the math worked out. At the end of the month, there was a couple hundred bucks left over between the rent that came in and then the mortgage that we paid, which is kind of for us was some safety. I know a lot of pharmacists are pretty risk-averse and so we thought if there’s more money coming in through the rent, at the end of the month, that will help to take care of what if the furnace goes out? Or what if the toilet gets clogged? Or what if all of the things that — like what if a lightswitch goes out? Like I can’t fix that. I have to hire someone to do that. So to have money for those kind of expenses that would come up — and like you said earlier, hopefully we could save some every month and then vacation or whatever using that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and we’ll get into in the future — again, focus here we want to introduce some terminology– but you’re mentioning some important pieces that I think when folks are analyzing a deal, I think it’s easy — almost like when people are looking at I currently rent versus what would my mortgage be and they forget to think about property taxes, homeowner’s insurance, what about all of the lawn equipment I need, taking care of my own, increasing utilities, the list goes on and on, right? Here, same type of thing, you know, as you’re looking at a real estate investment property, what are the things that you need to be thinking about in terms of repairs that need to be done, big projects over time, a roof, water types of issues, if you think about vacancies, all of those are factored in when you’re analyzing a deal. And hopefully the plan is that you’ve still got some positive cash flow after that. So David, we started with your live-in flip, we talked about the condo that you were able to do some renovations on and then turn into a rental. What was the game plan after that?

David Bright: Well that first rental was a great learning experience for us. And as much as the 1% Rule and some of the math — and certainly as pharmacists, we can get really nerdy into the math real fast, right. And there’s some great resources out there that can help that. You know, another shoutout to Bigger Pockets, they have some great kind of calculators and things that help you to make sure that you’re factoring in all of those expenses like property management, like the inevitable vacancy that you will have at some point, like the general repairs and the larger expenses, like taxes and insurance. But beyond all that, part of our goal with this condo was — and again, you and I are educators and we really just wanted some education in this. And we figured this is the best way to do it. So in our minds, it didn’t have to be a fantastic investment that would make all the metrics. It was really just how do we learn this to see if this is a fit for us as a part of our long-term financial plan? And that helped us to learn even other things like I didn’t know at the time that there were rental inspections and things. And once we hired the property manager, the property manager helped walk us through that and some of the local things that you need to know. And again, by bringing in a professional rockstar, like she was able to help make sure that we had all of our ducks in a row, that this was all done appropriately, correctly, safely, which again, pharmacists in health care definitely want things to be safe. And so that really helps. There’s a lot of learning that went on with that condo. And so after owning that for a couple years, it really seemed like it helped us to build some confidence that we could do this again. Over time, we started thinking about what point is it worth trying to do this again?

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

David Bright: Again, this rockstars know rockstars? We were looking around at other places and trying to find people that were doing this and learn from other people. One of the things that happened in Grand Rapids, where we live, house prices just accelerated like crazy, which I think we had all kind of seen from about 2015-2020 that house prices have gone way up across the country. And certainly Grand Rapids is no exception.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I remember, David, seeing Grand Rapids like on “Top Places to Live in the Country,” raise a family, I’m guessing that contributed to it as well.

David Bright: Oh, for sure. Yeah. And then shoutout to Grand Rapids, it is a beautiful place. And as far as those memory-making experiences, we were out on the kayaks with the kids last night and just a lot of fun things to do around here. So I know growing up in Columbus, I also at one point referred to it as a state up north, but now that I live here, it’s really beautiful. So the good side was some property appreciation. The bad side was it was hard to find these 1% properties where it would make sense as a rental. We didn’t really want to go out and buy a $250,000 house that would rent for $1,000 or $1,500 a month. It just didn’t make sense. So a friend introduced us to the city of Muskegon, Michigan, which about 45 minutes or an hour from where we live. And little community out by Lake Michigan, great little place, and there were some properties there that met this 1% Rule. And so we were able to buy a house out there that between the short sale that we bought first and the condo, we’re getting a little more confident in being able to fix some things. This house needed a little bit more work, it needed a bathroom remodel, it needed paint inside and outside and flooring and some other fixes like that. But I guess we’re getting desensitized to it or something like that over time. And I think also, there’s some confidence in knowing other rockstars that can do a lot of this work. We were able to hire some contractors and buy a property. So a friend introduced us to what I’ve heard referred to as a tired landlord, someone that had rented out the house and just was done with it, you know? And I don’t know what the situation was, if they had an eviction or something like that that just soured them to the property, but they were just done with it and wanted out. And so we were able to buy it in still pretty dirty condition, it needed some work, and we were able to hire some contractors to go in there and fix it up. And so this property — just as an example from a numbers standpoint, we were able to buy a house for just under $30,000 and put roughly $15,000 into repairs. So we were all into it for a little over $40,000. And then at the end of that process, it appraised for just under $60,000. So that helped us because we were then able to refinance the property at 75% loan-to-value — and we can certainly walk through a lot of these terms in a little more detail — but 75% loan-to-value refinance. We were able to get back out of it almost every dollar that we had into the property from a purchase and a rehab standpoint.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome.

David Bright: Yeah, that also felt like a way to reduce risk, again, pharmacist that doesn’t love a lot of risk, because then we didn’t have to save for years and years to make this enormous down payment on a house that might have a little bit of return every month. We didn’t have to have a lot of money into this property. But yet one more aspect of a long-term financial plan.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, and then if this works out as planned, here’s a great example, and we’re not trying to say this is all roses and cupcakes, you know, there’s a lot of education, a lot of relationship-building, a lot of things you did to make sure that this was a good deal and mitigate your risk, and there’s always things that could be unforeseen. So I don’t want folks walking away thinking, alright, let’s do this tomorrow. I mean, if somebody’s ready, awesome. But making sure we’re looking at both sides of the equation. So here though, David, this is a great example, I remember hearing about the BRRRR concept on Bigger Pockets, and it was one of those moments where I almost drove my car off the road. You know, one of those like Aha!, like oh my gosh, I just never being exposed to real estate investing, wasn’t even thinking this way, almost like reading “Rich Dad Poor Dad” for the first time. And then hearing this and the concept of getting all of your money or close to all of your money back out and being able to repeat that process potentially and grow the portfolio while you still have some built-in equity in the deal. So break that down for us briefly. What is the BRRRR model as folks may be hearing that for the first time? And I think the example property you just walked through is a great example of it.

David Bright: Yeah, so the BRRRR model — and I would agree, this is one of those things just kind of reading Bigger Pockets or part of my work here — for those that know Michigan, I live in Grand Rapids and Ferris State is located in Big Rapids, which is a city about, depending on where you live in town, it’s about 30-45 minutes away. So with that kind of drive, had some time to listen to some podcasts. I think a lot of folks listening to this podcast are probably in the same boat where you’re listening to things and trying to learn. And yeah, the BRRRR method also really struck me. And that’s that BRRRR: Buy, Rehab, Rent, Refinance, and Repeat. So the goal here is to buy a property that for whatever reason, whether you get it from a tired landlord or you buy it as a foreclosure or you buy it as a house that needs work or any or all of those, you buy it at some kind of discount because it’s something no one else wants to touch or something. You then rehab it, where you go through and you hire a contractor to do painting or whatever other work. At the end of that process, it is an attractive house where you can rent it out. So you can then rent it out, tenant, property manager, all those kind of things, refinance it at that point where you’re typically able with most banks to borrow 75% loan-to-value on what the property is worth. So not necessarily what you paid or what you paid plus your construction costs or anything like that, but what it appraises for that day. You can borrow 75% of the appraised value. So refinancing it allows you to get some of your investment back out of it and by doing that, if all the math works really well like this example — and like you said, not everything is rainbows and unicorns — but in this example, it did work pretty well where we had a little over $40,000 into it and it appraised just under $60,000, so 75% of just under $60,000 got us right just about all of our money back out of it.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think, David, this example really highlights well, you mentioned some of the things with loan-to-value, and if I’m understanding you correctly, with a 75% loan-to-value in a cash out refinance, you’re essentially then remaining 25% of the equity in the property. So you know, a lot of times you hear people talk about leverage with real estate investing. And for those of us that certainly want to make the most of an investment opportunity but also don’t want to find ourselves upside down on a mortgage, in this situation, you’ve got some built-in equity in the home so if something were to change market-wise or you run into a 2008 example of the market dips, you know, you’ve got some protection in there. You mentioned getting your cash back out in this deal, and obviously there’s fees as a part of the process that need to be considered so you can hopefully continue on with this. And then obviously from a rent situation, you want to make sure that it’s cash flow positive. So here, it checks all of those boxes. And I think, David, correct me if I’m wrong, but for those listening hearing this as one example and one path forward that they may consider, the rate limiting step here beyond just the understanding of the process and feeling comfortable and confident would be having that upfront cash to purchase the property, correct?

David Bright: Yes. Yes, because a lot of times, if you’re buying a house that is in pretty rough shape, it may be difficult or even impossible to get a traditional mortgage on that property. So certainly you see the folks on TV that are trying to flip these houses in California or something, they’re spending $1 million on these houses, that’s not something that I’m able to do.

Tim Ulbrich: Right?

David Bright: But you know, buying a house under $30,000 is a very different story.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think that’s just something for folks to consider and I think why the first one and this example or this model may be the most difficult. But if you’re running this right, the numbers look good, once you’re able to save up for that first one. And obviously as we talk about all the time on the show, so important to reinforce here, real estate investing for those that are considering it should be looked at in the context of the rest of the financial plan. So where are you at with your student loan debt? Where are you at with your emergency fund? Where are you at with your retirement, credit card debt, other goals? And does this make sense, in this example, to be saving up a bunch of cash to purchase this property? And for some, the answer may be yes, and for others, maybe it’s no for the time being. So we have — and we’ll hopefully revisit, David, at a future point on another episode, I think we’ve thrown a good amount of information at the listeners, but you know, we’ve kind of dodged around some of the benefits of owning real estate and rental properties. Obviously the opportunity for cash flow, of course the appreciation of the properties, we haven’t talked about in detail the tax benefits, but certainly that’s a consideration, the fact that somebody else is essentially helping pay down the mortgage, being able through the cash flow to achieve other financial goals, perhaps even having an opportunity for diversification of income and if folks are predominantly saving in a 401k or a 403b where those funds are essentially locked down to 59.5, you’ve got some options here in real estate. And so we’ll come back and approach some of those more in the future. One of the things I want to wrap up with, David, is you mentioned Bigger Pockets as a resource and the Bigger Pockets calculator, which I certainly would attest to as well. Are there any other resources that you would recommend either a great book, a website, a community that really has been instrumental in your own journey that other folks may be able to apply as they’re getting started?

David Bright: Yeah, you know, we both reference Bigger Pockets, and I think podcasts are just really accessible for folks with a commute or things like that. So I would definitely recommend that. You’ve also mentioned the “Rich Dad Poor Dad” book, which I think really helped me to see, just see investing and a financial plan in a different way than I had previously thought, so that was another big resource that helped. And then “The Millionaire Real Estate Investor.” I believe that’s a Gary Keller book, that’s another one that was a little more nuts and bolts as far as how to look at properties, how to do some of the math and certainly pharmacy math nerd, I dove into some of that. And so that was helpful. I thought of the “Rich Dad Poor Dad” as more of a mindset book.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

David Bright: And “The Millionaire Real Estate Investor” as more of a tactical book. And so both of us, an audiobook here and there on the commute, and it was helpful there. I think that one of the other things that helped me to learn from just a mindset thing too is that I think some of this can certainly be a lot of — it can just be intimidating for people with a full-time job, busy life, family, kids, all those things. Like it can be certainly intimidating. And both of those books and then talking with other people in the area, other people doing this — going back to the rockstars know rockstars — talking with real estate agents and contractors, like one of the things that oddly enough, has helped us too is buying a house that’s an hour away.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

David Bright: I’m not tempted to go drive by it and try to paint a room or something. Like I’m able to really detach from it and not let it take a bunch of time, which has been really, really helpful because I think that, again, typical pharmacist, little bit of a control freak. It’s hard to detach from some of these things, but it’s just been really healthy I think to do that and to trust property managers, to trust contractors, and yeah, just it allows it to be something that we can do as a part of our financial plan without it really taking a ton of time.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think that’s a nice recap of what we had talked about before briefly of I think one of the benefits of long distance real estate investing, whether that’s an hour or a different state away, is it really helps kind of force your hand in building some of the systems and processes that hopefully pull you out of the equation in some regard. Again, I’m thinking about this as somebody would be building a business and thinking about with the end in mind. The other resource — and actually one that just came to mind as I was just mentioning that Bigger Pockets does have a book on long distance real estate investing. So if folks are in a market where deals are harder to find and you’re looking at other areas of the country, I recommend that resource. Another one, David, I know Bigger Pockets just came out with I think it’s “The Real Estate Rookie” podcast, which I’ve enjoyed listening to. I know they’ve done so many episodes on their main show now and sometimes those stories, for new investors may seem just massive and overwhelming as people are talking about having 150 properties and their journey over the last 10 years. And I think that “Real Estate Rookie” podcast is a good segway introduction for folks that are just getting started. So David, really appreciate you taking the time to share some of your journey but also help break down these concepts. And we will link to some of the resources that we’ve mentioned in the show notes. And as a reminder to the listener, you can access show notes for this episode as well as any other episode, by going to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/podcast. Find the episode and in there, you’ll find a transcription of the show as well as a link to the resources and notes that we talked about. And don’t forget to join the Facebook group, over 6,000 members strong, pharmacy professionals all across the country, committed to helping one another on this path and goals towards achieving financial freedom. And last but not least, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode, please leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your show each and every week. Have a great rest of your day.

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YFP 166: Why Negotiation is an Important Part of Your Financial Plan

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Why Negotiation is an Important Part of Your Financial Plan

Tim Baker and Tim Ulbrich talk all things negotiation. They discuss what it is, where it can be used, why it’s important to your financial plan, the goals of negotiation and tips and strategies for different parts of the negotiation process.

Summary

Tim Baker joins Tim Ulbrich on this episode to dig into all things negotiation. Negotiation is the process of discovery and a way to advocate for yourself and what your needs are. Tim Baker explains that negotiation is an important part of your financial plan for many reasons. He explains that settling for a lower salary can have a significant impact on your present and future finances because you may accrue less in retirement savings and potentially other investments. However, negotiation doesn’t just lie in your salary. You can also negotiate benefits like flex scheduling, paid time off as well as potentially parental leave and professional development opportunities, among others.

Tim Baker shares that 99% of hiring managers are expecting new hires to negotiate and build their initial offer as such. Many don’t end up negotiating because they don’t want to risk the offer being revoked, but Tim says that the majority of the time you should present a counter offer.

Tim then digs into the stages of the negotiation process that include the interview, receiving an offer, presenting a counter offer and accepting the offer and position. He shares many strategies and tips for each stage as well as additional techniques to use throughout the process.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker, welcome back to the show.

Tim Baker: Yeah, happy to be here. How’s it going, Tim?

Tim Ulbrich: It’s going. Excited to talk negotiation, something we discuss a lot in presentations, a lot I know that you discuss with clients as a part of the financial plan, but we haven’t addressed it directly on the show before. So I’m excited that we get a chance to dig into this topic. And we know that negotiation can carry a lot of power and can be used across the board really in life, right? It could be negotiating terms for a new or existing job position, buying a car, buying a house, negotiating with your kids or spouse — kidding, not kidding as we’ll talk about here in a little bit. So we’re going to focus predominantly on salary negotiation, but really these techniques can be applied to many areas of the financial plan and really life as a whole. So Tim, I know that for you, negotiation is a key piece of the financial plan. And you and our CFPs over at YFP talk about negotiation in the context of financial planning, which I would say is probably not the norm of the financial planning industry and services. So let’s start with this: Why is negotiation such an important piece of the financial plan?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think if we look at YFP’s mission, YFP’s mission is to empower pharmacists to achieve financial freedom. So I think the building blocks of that really is kind of what we do day-in and day-out with clients at YFP Planning. And what I typically, or the way that we typically approach a financial plan is we really want to help the client grow and protect their income, which is the lifeblood of the financial plan. Without income, nothing moves. But we know that probably more importantly than that is grow and protect the balance sheet, the net worth, which means increasing assets efficiently and decreasing liabilities efficiently and ultimately moving the net worth number in the right direction. So those are both quantitative things. But then qualitatively, we want to make sure that we’re keeping all the goals in mind, so grow and protect income and net worth while keep the goals in mind. So to me, that’s our jam, you know? So when I say — when somebody asks me a question like we do the Ask a YFP CFP, and I always say, “Well, it depends.” A lot of it really depends on those foundational, like where are we at with the balance sheet and where do we want to go? Meaning what are our goals? What’s our why? What’s the life plan, what’s a wealthy life for you and how can we support that with the financial plan? So to go back to your question, my belief is that the income is a big part of that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Tim Baker: And what I’ve found working with many, many pharmacists is sometimes pharmacists are not great at advocating for themselves. You know, most of the people that I talk to when we talk about salary negotiation, they’re like, eh, I’m just thankful I have a job, and I’m in agreement with that. But sometimes a little bit of a negotiation and having some of the skills that we’ll talk about today to better advocate for yourself is important. And a lot of this stuff is not necessarily just for salary. It can be for a lot of different things. But to me, what I saw as a need here, same thing like most financial planners don’t walk you through kind of home purchase and what that looks like because most financial planners are working with people in their 50s, 60s and 70s. So that was a need for a lot of our clients who were like, “Hey, Tim, I’m buying this house. I don’t really know where to start. So we provide some education and some recommendations and advice around that. Same thing with salary, I kept seeing like well, maybe I took the job too quickly or I didn’t advocate for myself, so that’s really where we want to provide some education and advice, again, to have a better position from an income perspective.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think it’s a great tool to have in your toolbag, you know. And I think as we’ll talk about here, the goal is not to be an expert negotiator. There’s lots of resources that are out there that can help with this and make it tangible and practical, one of which we’ll draw a lot of the information today, I know you talk with clients, a resource I love, “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss. But I’m glad you mentioned, you know, I think there is often a sentiment — I know I’ve felt in myself where you know what, I’m glad to have a position, I’m glad to be making a good income. But that can be true and you still can be a good person and you still can negotiate and advocate for yourself and the value you bring to the organization.

Tim Baker: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: So I hope folks will hear that and not necessarily think that negotiation is bad and as we’ll talk about here in a moment, I think really can have a significant impact when you think about it as it relates to earnings over your career and what those additional earnings could mean. So Tim, break it down for us. What is negotiation and really, digging further, why is it important?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so negotiation, you know, it’s really a process of discovery. It really shouldn’t be viewed as a battle. It’s really a process of discovery. It’s kind of that awkward conversation that you should be obligated to have because you know, if you don’t want to advocate for yourself professionally, who will? And maybe you have a good mentor or something like that, but to me, the negotiation, again, is really to discover what you want and kind of what your counterpart, which might be a boss or a hiring manager or something like that. And it’s really important because settling for a lower salary can have really major financial consequences, both immediately and down the road. And you typically — raises that you receive are typically based on a percentage of your salary, so hey, we’re going to give you a 3% raise this year, a 5% raise. If you start off with a salary that you’re not happy with, then obviously that’s a problem. Accrue less in retirement savings, so that TSP, that 401k, 403b, again, you typically are going to get some type of match in a lot of cases, and then you’re going to put a percentage. So again, that could potentially be lower. But it’s not just about salary. It can be — I think another mistake that sometimes people make is that they’ll say, oh wow, I was making $125,000 and I’m taking a job that’s paying me $135,000 and they take a major step back on some of the non-salary things like benefits and flex scheduling and time off and things like that. But you know, you really want to make sure that compensation package that you have, you know, you’re happy with. Because underpaid really can make you feel resentful over the long run. So you want to make sure that you’re, again, right now we’re filming in the midst of a pandemic and the economy and the job market is tough, but you still want to advocate for yourself and make sure you’re getting the best compensation package that you can.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and as we’ll talk about here in a little bit, I think if we frame this differently, then maybe our understanding, our preconceived beliefs — you know, you mentioned it’s not a battle, you know, I think the goal is that you’re trying to come to an agreement or an understanding. And as we’ll talk about here, many employers are likely expecting this. And that number, in terms of those that are expecting versus those that are actually engaging in the conversation from an employee standpoint is very different.

Tim Baker: Sure.

Tim Ulbrich: So I think that might help give us confidence to be able to initiate some of those, and we’ll talk about strategies to do that. I do want to give one example, though, Tim, real quick. You had mentioned obviously if somebody earns less and receive small raises or they accrue less in retirement savings, that can have a significant impact. And I went down the rabbit hole prepping for this episode of just looking at a quick example of this where you have two folks that let’s say they both start working at the age of 28, they retire at their 65, so same starting point, same retirement age. Let’s assume they get a 3% cost of living adjustment every year for their career just to keep it simple. The only difference here is that one starts at $100,000 and one starts at $105,000. So because of either what they asked for in negotiations, whatever be the case, one starts $5,000 greater than the other. And if you play this out, same starting age, same ending age, same cost of living adjustments, one starts at a higher point, when it’s all said and done, one individual has about $300,000 more of earnings than the other. And this of course does not include differences that you also have because of higher salary. If you had a match, that would increase, that would compound, that would grow. If you were to switch jobs, you’re at a better point to now negotiate for a higher salary, all other benefits that aren’t included. But the significance of the starting point I think is something to really look at those numbers that often where you start can inform where you’re going, not only from cost of living adjustments but also future employment, right? So we know that where you start if you get a 3% raise, it’s of course going to be based off that number. If you decide to leave that employer and you go to another one, what do they ask you? How much did you make? You’re using that number. So that starting point is so critical, and I hope that new practitioners might even find some confidence in that to be able to engage in discussions knowing how significant those numbers can be over a career. So in that one example, that starting point is a difference of about $300,000. Crazy, right, when you look at it over a long time period.

Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s nuts. And I’d play the devil’s advocate, on the other side of that is again, so much — just like everything else with the financial plan, you can’t look at it in a vacuum. We’ve had clients take a lot less money and really, it was because of the student loans and how that would affect their strategy in terms of forgiveness and things like that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Tim Baker: So it is multifactorial. It’s definitely something that it should really be examined. And I think, again, when you look at the overall context of the financial plan. But to your point, Tim, that starting salary and really how you negotiate throughout the course of your career is going to be utterly important. And again, what we say is — we kind of downplay the income because I think so much of what’s kind of taught is like, oh, six-figure salary, you’ll be OK. And that’s not true. But then it is true that it is the lifeblood of the financial plan, so I think if you have a plan and you’re intentional with what you’re doing, that’s where you can really start making moves with regard to your financial outlook.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I’m glad you said that about salary shouldn’t be looked at in a silo. I mean, just to further that point, you’ve alluded to it already, these numbers don’t matter if there’s other variables that are non-monetary that matter more. Right? Whether that be time off or satisfaction in the workplace, opportunities that you have, feelings of accomplishment. I mean, the whole list of things you can’t necessarily put a number to, I mean, I would argue if those are really important, you’ve got to weigh those against whatever this number would be. And there’s a certain point where the difference in money isn’t worth it if there’s other variables that are involved, which usually there are. Hopefully we can get both, right? Salary and non-salary items.

Tim Baker: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: So interesting stats about negotiation, I’ve heard you present before on this topic, but I’d like you to share with our audience in terms of managers that are expecting hires to negotiate versus those that do. Talk us through some of those as I think it will help us frame and maybe change our perception on employers expecting and our willingness to engage in these conversations.

Tim Baker: Yeah, and I really need to cite this one. And I believe this first stat comes from SHRM, which is the Society for Human Resource Management. So I think this is like the biggest association for like HR and Human Resource personnel in the country. And the stat that I use is that 99% of hiring managers expect prospective hires to negotiate. So if you think about that, you know, the overwhelming majority expect you the prospective hire to negotiate. And they build their initial offers as such. So the example I give to clients is like, hey, we have a position that we could pay anywhere from $110,000 to $130,000, knowing that you know, Tim, if I’m offering this job to you, knowing that you’re probably going to negotiate with me. I’m going to offer it to you for $110,000 knowing that I have a little bit of wiggle room if you kind of come back with a counteroffer. But what a lot of my clients or people do that I talk with is they’ll just say, yes, I found a job, crappy job market, happy to get started, ready to get started. And they’re either overly enthusiastic to accept a job or they’re just afraid that a little bit of negotiation would hurt their outlook. So with that in mind is that you — the offers I think are built in a way that you should be negotiating and trying to, again, advocate for yourself.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and so if people are presenting positions often with a range in salary expecting negotiation, I hope that gives folks some confidence in OK, that’s probably expected and maybe shifts some of the perception away from, this whole thing could fall apart, which it could, right? At any given point in time, especially depending on the way you conduct yourself in that negotiation, which I think is really, really important to consider. But I think what we want to try to avoid, Tim, back to a comment you made earlier, is any resentment as well. I mean, if we think about this from a relationship standpoint, we want the employee to feel valued, and we want the employer to have a shot at retaining this individual long-term. So it’s a two-way relationship.

Tim Baker: Yeah, and it kind of comes up to where we were talking about what is the goal of negotiation. And really, the goal of negotiation is to come to some type of agreement.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: The problem with that is that people are involved in this. And we as people are emotional beings, so if we feel like that we’re treated unfairly or we don’t feel safe and secure or if we’re not in control of the conversation, our emotions can get the best of us. So that’s important. So again, there’s some techniques that you can utilize to kind of mitigate that. But you know, to allude to your point about negotiating, the fear to kind of potentially mess up the deal, there’s a stat that says 32% don’t negotiate because they’re too worried about losing the job offer.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: I know, Tim, like we can attest to this because with our growth at YFP, we’ve definitely done some human resourcing, to use that as a verb, and hiring and things like that of late. And I’ve got to say that the — I think that some of this can be unfounded just because there’s just so much blood, sweat and tears that goes into finding the right people to kind of surround yourself with and bring into an organization that to me, a little bit of back-and-forth is not going to ultimately lose the job. So typically most jobs, there’s — obviously there’s an application process, there’s interviews, there’s second interviews, there’s maybe on-site visits, there’s kind of looking at all the candidates and then extending offers. If you get to that offer stage, you’re pretty — they’ve identified as you’re the person that they want. So sometimes a little bit of back-and-forth is not going to derail any such deal. So it’s really, really important to understand that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and as the employer, I mean, we’ve all heard about the cost statistics around retention. So as an employer, when I find that person, I want to retain them. That’s my goal, right? I want to find good talent, I want to retain good talent. So I certainly don’t want somebody being resentful about the work that they’re doing, the pay that they have, and so I think if we can work some of that out before beginning, come to an agreement, it’s a good fit for us, good fit for them, I think it’s also going to help the benefit of hopefully the long-term relationship of that engagement. So it’s one thing to say we should be doing it. It’s another thing to say, well how do we actually do this? What are some tips and tricks for negotiation? So I thought it would be helpful if we could walk through some of the stages of negotiation. And through those stages, we can talk, as well as beyond that, what are some actual strategies to negotiation. Again, another shoutout to “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss. I think he does an awesome job of teaching these strategies in a way that really helps them come alive and are memorable.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: So Tim, let’s talk about the first stage, the interview stage, and what are some strategies that those listening can take when it comes to negotiation in this stage.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so when I present these concepts to a client, I kind of said that the four stages of negotiation are fairly vanilla, you know? And the first one is that interview. So when you get that interview, what I say is typically you want to talk less, listen more and learn more. Typically, the person that is talking the most is not in control of the conversation. The one that’s listening and asking good questions is in control. And I kind of think back to some of our recent hires, and you know, the people that we identified as like top candidates, I’m like, man, their interviews went really well. And when I actually think back and slow down, it’s really — I think that they went really well because it’s really that person asking good questions and then me just talking. And that’s like the perception. So in that case, the candidate was asking us good questions and we’re like, yeah, this was a great interview because I like to hear myself talk or I just get really excited about what we’re doing at YFP. So I think if you can really focus on your counterpart, focus on the organization, whether it’s the hospital or whatever it is and learn and then really pivot to the value that you bring, I think that’s going to be most important. So you know, understanding what some of their pain points are, whether it’s retention or maybe some type of care issue or whatever that may be, you can kind of use that to your advantage as you’re kind of going through the different stages of negotiation. But the more that the other person talks, the better. I would say in the interview stage, one of the things that often comes up that can come up fairly soon is the question about salary. And you know, sometimes that is — it’s kind of like a time savings. So it’s a “Hey, Tim, what are you looking for in salary?” If you throw out a number that’s way too high, I’m not even going to waste my time. And what I tell clients is like you typically, you want to — and we’ll talk about anchoring. You really want to avoid throwing a number out for a variety of reasons. So one of the deflections you can use is, “Hey, I appreciate the question, but I’m really trying to figure out if I’d be a good fit for your organization. Let’s talk about salary when the time comes.” Or the other piece of it is it’s just you’re not in the business of offering yourself a job. And what I mean by that it’s their job to basically provide an offer. So, “Hey, my current employer doesn’t really allow me to kind of reveal that kind of information. What did you have in mind?” Or, “We know that pharmacy is a small business, and I’m sure your budget is reasonable. What did you have in mind?”

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Tim Baker: So at the end of the day, it’s their job to extend the offer, not you to kind of negotiate against yourself, which can happen. You know? I had — we signed on a client here at YFP Planning yesterday, and we were talking about negotiation. I think it had to do with a tax issue. And you know, he basically said this is what he was looking for and when he got into the organization, I think he saw the number that was budgeted for it, and it was a lot more. So again, if you can deflect that — and I tell a story, when I first got out of the Army, I kind of knew this. But when I first got out of the Army, I was interviewing for jobs. I was in an interview, and I deflected and I think the guy asked me again, and I deflected. I think he asked me for like — maybe he asked me four times, and I just wound up giving him a range that was like obnoxious, $100,000-200,000 or something like that. But to me, that — and the interview didn’t go well after that, but to me, it was more about clearing the slate instead of actually learning about me and seeing if I was a good fit. So you never want to lie if they ask about your current salary, you never want to lie. But you definitely want to deflect and move to things like OK, can I potentially be a good fit for your organization and then go from there.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think deflection takes practice, right?

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: I don’t think that comes natural to many of us.

Tim Baker: Absolutely. Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: This reminds me, so talk less, listen more for any Hamilton folks we have out there, which is playing 24/7 in my house these days, the soundtrack. I’m not going to sing right now, but talk less, smile more, don’t let them know what you’re against or what you’re for. So I think that’s a good connection there to the interview stage. So next hopefully comes good news, company wants to hire you, makes an offer. So Tim, talk us through this stage. What should we be remembering when we actually have an offer on the table?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think you definitely want to be appreciative and thankful. Again, when a company gets to a point where they’re an extending you an offer, that’s huge. I remember when I got, again, my first offer out of the Army — because again, you didn’t really have a choice when you’re in the Army. Well, I guess you do have a choice, but they’re not like, “Here’s a written offer for your employment in this platoon somewhere in Iraq.” But I remember getting the first offer. I’m like, man, this is awesome. Shows your salary and the benefits and things like that, so you want to be appreciable and thankful — appreciative and thankful. You don’t want to be — you want to be excited but not too overexcited. So you don’t want to appear to be desperate. What I tell clients, I think the biggest piece here is make sure you get it in writing. And I have a story that I tell because if it’s not in writing, and what I essentially said is it didn’t happen. So again, using some personal experience here, first job out of the Army, I had negotiated basically an extra week of vacation because I didn’t want to take a step back in that regard. And I got the offer, and the extra week wasn’t there. So I talked to my future boss about it, and he said, “You know what, I don’t want to go back to headquarters and ruffle some feathers, so why don’t we just take care of that on site here?” And this was the job I had in Columbus, Ohio. And I said, “Yeah, OK, I don’t really want to ruffle feathers either.” The problem with that was when he got replaced, when he was terminated eight months later, that currency burned up fairly quickly. So I didn’t have that extra week of vacation. So if it’s not written down, it never happened. So you want to make sure that you get it in writing and really go over that written offer extensively. So some employers, they’ll extend an offer, and they want a decision right away. I would walk away from that. To me, a job change or something of that magnitude, I think it warrants a 24-, if not a minimum 48-hour timeframe for you to kind of mull it over. And this is typically where I come in and help clients because they’ll say, “Hey, Tim, I got this offer. What do you think?” And we go through it and we look at benefits and we look at the total compensation package and things like that. But you want to ask for a time, some time to review everything. And then definitely adhere to the agreed-upon deadline to basically provide an answer or a counteroffer or whatever the next step is for you.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think too, the advice to get it in writing helps buy you time, you know? I think you ask for it anyways. And I think the way you approach this conversation, you’re setting up the counteroffer, right? So the tone that you’re using, it’s not about being arrogant here, it’s not about acting like you’re not excited at all. I think you can strike that balance between you’re appreciative, you’re thankful, you’re continuing to assess if it’s a good fit for you and the organization, you want some time, you want it in writing, and you’re beginning to set the stage. And I think human behavior, right, says if something is either on the table or pulled away slightly, the other party wants it a little bit more, right?

Tim Baker: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: So if I’m the employer and I really want someone and I’m all excited about the offer and I’m hoping they’re going to say yes and they say, “Hey, I’m really thankful for the offer. I’m excited about what you guys are doing. I need some time to think about x, y and z,” or “I’m really thinking through x, y or z,” like all of a sudden, that makes me want them more. You know?

Tim Baker: Sure.

Tim Ulbrich: So I think there’s value in setting up what is that counteroffer. So talk to us about the counteroffer, Tim. Break it down and some strategies to think about in this portion.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so you know, the counteroffer is I would say — the majority of the time, you should counter in some way. I think you’re expected to make a counter. And again, we kind of back that up with some stats. But you also, you need to know when not to kind of continue to go back to the negotiating table or when you’re asking or overasking. So I think research is going to be a good part of that. And what I tell clients is like, I can give them a very non-scientific — I’ve worked with so many pharmacists that I can kind of say, eh, that sounds low for this community pharmacy industry, or whatever, hospital, in this area. So your network, which could be someone like me, it could be colleagues, but it could also be things like Glass Door, Indeed, Salary.com. So you want to make sure that your offer, your counteroffer is backed up in some type of fact. And really, knowing how to maximize your leverage. So if you are — if you do receive more than one substantial offer from multiple employers, negotiating may be appropriate if the two positions are comparable. Or if you have tangible evidence that the salary is too low, you have a strong position to negotiate. So I had a client that knew that newly hired pharmacists were being paid more than she was, and she had the evidence to show that and basically they went back and did a nice adjustment. But again, I think as you go through — the way that we kind of do this with clients is we kind of go through the entire letter and the benefits. And I basically just highlight things and have questions about match or vacation time or salary, things like that. And then we start constructing it from there. So if you look at, again, the thing where most people will start is salary is you really want to give — when you counter, you really want to give a salary range rather than like a number. So what I say is, if you say, “Hey, Tim, I really want to make $100,000.” I kind of said it’s almost like the Big Bad Wolf that blows the house down. Like all of those zeros, there’s no substance to that. But if you said, “Hey, I really want to make $105,985,” the Journal of the Experimental Social Psychology says that using a precise number instead of a rounded number gives it a more potent anchor.

Tim Ulbrich: You’ve done your homework, right?

Tim Baker: Yeah. You know what you’re worth, you know what the position’s worth, it’s giving the appearance of research. So I kind of like — it’s kind of like the Zach Galfinakis meme that has all of the equations that are floating, it’s kind of like that. But the $100,000, you can just blow that house over. So and I think — so once you figure out that number, then you kind of want to range it. So they say if you give a range of a salary, then it opens up room for discussion and it shows the employer that you have flexibility. And it gives you some cushion in case you think that you’re asking for a little bit too high. So that’s going to be really, really important is to provide kind of precise numbers in a range. And oh, by the way, I want to be paid at the upper echelon of that.

Tim Ulbrich: So real quick on that, you mentioned before the concept of anchoring, and I want to spend some time here as you’re talking about a range. So dig into that further, what that means in terms of if I’m given a range, how does anchoring fit into that?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so we kind of talk about this more when we kind of talk some of the tools and the behavior of negotiation. But the range — so when we talk about like anchoring, so anchoring is actually — it’s a bias. So anchoring bias describes the common tendency to give too much weight to the first number. So again, if I can invite the listener to imagine an equation, and the equation is 5x4x3x2x1. And that’s in your mind’s eye. And then you clear the slate, and now you imagine this equation: 1x2x3x4x5. Now, if I show the average person and I just flash that number up, the first number — the first equation that starts with 5 and the second equation that starts with 1, we know that those things equal the same thing. But in the first equation, we see the 5 first, so it creates this anchor, creates this belief in us that that number is actually higher.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, bigger, yeah.

Tim Baker: So the idea of anchoring is typically that that number that we see really is a — has a major influence, that first number is a major influence over where the negotiation goes. So you can kind of get into the whole idea of factoring your knowledge of the zone of possible agreement, which is often called ZOPA. So that’s the range of options that should be acceptable for both sides, and then kind of assessing your side of that and then your other party’s anchor in that. So there’s lots of things that kind of go into anchoring, but we did this recently with a client where I think they were offered somewhere in like the $110,000-112,000 area. And she’s like, I really want to get paid closer to like $117,000-118,000. So we basically in the counteroffer, we said, “Hey, thanks for the offer.” And we did something called an accusation, which we can talk about in a second. But “Thanks for the counteroffer, but I’m really looking to make between” — you know, I think we said something like $116,598 to all the way up into the $120,000s. And they actually brought her up to I think she was at $117,000 and change. So it actually brought her up closer to that $118,000. So using that range and kind of that range as a good anchoring position to help the negotiation.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, love it.

Tim Baker: There’s lots of different things that kind of go into anchoring in terms of extreme anchoring and a lot of that stuff that they talk about in the book, but again, that kind of goes back to that first number being thrown out there can be really, really integral. And again, when you couple that on top of hey, it’s their job to make you an offer, not the other way around, you have to really learn how to deflect that and know how to position yourself in those negotiations. But that’s really the counteroffer. And what I would say to kind of just wrap up the counteroffer is embrace the silence.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: So Tim, there was silence there, and I’m like, I want to fill the void. And I do this with clients when we talk about mirroring and things like that. Like people are uncomfortable with silence. And what he talks about in the book, which I would 100% — this is really kind of a tip of the cap to Chris Voss and his book, which I love, I read probably at least once a year, where he talks about embracing the silence. We as people are conditioned to fill silences. So he talks about sometimes people will negotiate against themselves. If you just sit there and you say, “Uh huh. That’s interesting.” And then in the counter, just be pleasantly persistent on the non-salary terms, which can be both subjective and objective in terms of what you’re looking for in that position.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I want to make sure we don’t lose that. We’re talking a lot about salary, but again, as we mentioned at the beginning, really try to not only understand but fit what’s the value of those non-salary terms. So this could be everything from paid time off to obviously other benefits, whether that be health or retirement. This of course could be culture of the organization, whether it’s that specific site, the broader organization, opportunities for advancement.

Tim Baker: Mentorship. Yep. Mentorship.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes, yes.

Tim Baker: Yep, all of that.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think what you hear from folks — I know I’ve felt in my own personal career, with each year that goes on, I value salary, but salary means less and those other things mean more. And so as you’re looking at let’s just say two offers, as one example, let’s say they’re $5,000 apart. I’m not saying you give on salary, but how do you factor in these other variables.

Tim Baker: Yeah. Well, and I think too — and this is kind of next level with this, and I’ll give you some examples to cite it. I think another thing to potentially do when you are countering and when you’re shifting to some of maybe the non-salary stuff is really took a hard look at your potential employer or even your current employer if you’re an incumbent and you’re being reviewed and you’re just advocating for a better compensation, is look at the company’s mission and values. So the example I give is like when Shea and I got pregnant with Liam, she didn’t have a maternity leave benefit. And when she was being reviewed, we kind of invoked the company — and I think it’s like work-life balance and things like that — and we’re like, “Well, how can you say that and not back that up?” And again, we did it tactfully. Because you’re almost like negotiating against yourself, right? So when I present this to clients, the Spiderman meme where two Spidermans are pointing at each other, and she was able to negotiate a better, a maternity — and we look at us, and I give these, one of our values is encouraging growth and development. So if an employee says, hey, and they make a case that I really want to do this, it’s almost like we’re negotiating against ourselves. So I think if you can — one, I think it shows again the research and that you’re really interested and plugged into what the organization is doing — but then I think you’re leveraging the company against itself in some ways because you’re almost negotiating against well, yeah, we put these on the wall as something that we believe in. But we’re not going to support it or you know. Or at the very least, it plants a seed. And that’s what I say is sometimes with clients, we do strike out. It is hard to move the needle sometimes, but at least one, we’ve got an iteration under our belts where we are negotiation, and two, we’ve planted a seed with that employer — assuming that they took the job anyway — that says OK, these are things that are kind of important to me that we’re going to talk about again and things like that. So I think that’s huge.

Tim Ulbrich: Good stuff. So let’s talk about some tools that we can use for negotiation. And again, many of these are covered in more detail in the book and other resources, which we’ll link to in the show notes. I just want to hit on a few of these. Let’s talk about mirroring, accusation audits, and the importance of getting a “That’s right” while you’re in these conversations. And we’ll leave our listeners to dig deeper in some of the other areas. So talk to us about mirroring. What is it? And kind of give us the example and strategies of mirroring.

Tim Baker: Yeah, and I would actually — Tim, what I would do is I would actually back up because I think probably one of the most important tools that are there I think is the calibrated question. So that’s one of the first things that he talks — and the reason, so what is a calibrated question? So a calibrated question is a question with really no fixed answer that gives the illusion of control. So the answer, however, is kind of constrained by that question. And you, the person that’s asking the question, has control of the conversation. So I give the example, when we moved into our house after we renovated it — so brand new house. I walk into my daughter’s room, I think she was 4 at the time, and she’s coloring on the wall in red crayons. And I’m from Jersey, so I say “crown” not “crayon.” And I look at her, and I say, “Olivia, why are you doing that?” And she sees how upset I am and mad and she just starts crying. And there’s no negotiation from there.

Tim Ulbrich: Negotiation over.

Tim Baker: There’s no exchange of information. So in an alternate reality, in an alternate reality, what I should have done is said, “Olivia, what caused you to do that?” So you’re basically blasting — instead of why — why is very accusatory — you’re like, the how and the what questions are good. So and of course she would say, “Well, Daddy, I ran out of paper, so the wall is the next best thing.” So the use of — and having these calibrated questions in your back pocket, I think again buys you some time and really I think frames the conversation with your counterpart well. So using words like “how” and “what” and avoiding things like “why,” “when,” “who.” So, “What about this works, doesn’t work for you?” “How can we make this better for us?” “How do you want to proceed?” “How can we solve this problem?” “What’s the biggest challenge you face?” These are all — “How does this look to you?” — these are all calibrated questions that again, as you’re kind of going back and forth, you can kind of lean on. So have good how and what questions. To kind of answer the question about mirroring, as you’re asking these questions, you’re mirroring your counterpart. So what mirroring, the scientific term is called isopraxism. But he defines and says “the real-life Jedi mind trick.” This causes vomiting of information is what he says. So you know, these are not the droids you’re looking for. So what you essentially is you repeat back the last 1-3 words or the critical words of your counterpart’s sentence, your counterpart’s sentence. So this is me mirroring myself. Yeah, well you want to repeat back because you want them to reveal more information. And you want to build rapport and have that curiosity of kind of what is the other person thinking so you can, again, come to an agreement. Come to an agreement? Yeah. So at the end of the day, the purpose — so this is mirroring. So I’ll show you a funny story. I practice this on my wife sometimes, who does not have a problem speaking. But sometimes the counterpart is —

Tim Ulbrich: She’s listening, by the way.

Tim Baker: Yeah, exactly. So I’ll probably be in trouble. But so I basically just for our conversation, just mirror back exactly what she’s saying. And you can do this physically. You can cross your legs or your arms or whatever that looks like. But what he talks about more is with words. And you know, I’ll basically just mirror back my wife, and she — at the end of the conversation, she’ll say something like, “Man, I feel like you really listened to me.” And I laugh about that because I’m just really repeating back. But if you think about it, I did. Because for you to be able to do that, you really do have to listen. So mirroring, again, if you’re just repeating back, you really start to uncover more of what your counterpart is thinking because often, like what comes out of our mouth the first or even second time is just smoke. So really uncovering that. One of the things he talks about is labeling where this is kind of the — it’s described as the method of validating one’s emotion by acknowledging it. So, “It seems like you’re really concerned about patient care. It seems like you’re really concerned about the organization’s retention of talent. So what you’re doing is that you’re using neutral statements that don’t involve the use of “I” or “we.” So it’s not necessarily accusatory. And then you are — same with the mirror. You really want to not step on your mirror. You want to not stop on your label and really invite the other person to say, “Yeah, I’m just really frustrated by this or that.” So labeling is really important to basically defuse the power, the negative emotion, and really allow you to remain neutral and kind of find out more about that. So that’s super important.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think with both of those, Tim, as you were talking, it connects well back to what we mentioned earlier of talk less, listen more.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Like you’re really getting more information out, right, from a situation that can be guarded, you know, people are trying to be guarded. And I think more information could lead hopefully to a more fruitful negotiation. What about the accusation audit?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so the accusation audit, it’s one of my favorites, kind of similar with calibrated questions. I typically will tell clients, I’m like, “Hey, if you don’t learn anything from this, I would say have some calibrated questions in your back pocket and have a good accusation audit at the ready.” And we typically will use the accusation audit to kind of frame up a counteroffer. So it kind — so before I give you the example, the accusation audit is a technique that’s used to identify and label probably like the worst thing that your counterpart could say about it. So this is all the head trash that’s going on of why I don’t want to negotiate. It’s like, ah, they’re going to think that I’m overasking or I’m greedy, all those things that you’re thinking. So you’re really just pointing to the elephant in the room and you’re just trying to take this thing out and really let the air out of the room where a lot of people just get so nervous about this. So a good accusation audit is, “Hey, Tim, I really appreciate the offer of $100,000 to work with your organization. You’re probably going to think that I’m the greediest person on Planet Earth, but I was really looking for this to that.”

Tim Ulbrich: That’s a great line. Great line.

Tim Baker: Or, “You’re probably thinking that I’m asking way too much,” or, “You’re probably thinking that I’m way underqualified for this position, but here’s what I’m thinking.”

Tim Ulbrich: “No. No, no, no, Tim.”

Tim Baker: Right. So when someone says that to me, I’m like, “No. I don’t think that.” And what often happens — and again, clients have told me this — what often happens is that the person, the counterpart that they’re working with, like they’re recruited as — one person said, one client was like, “Oh, we’re going to find you more money. We’re going to figure it out.” So they like — so when someone says that to you, just think about how you would feel. “Oh, I don’t think that at all.” And then it just kind of lets the air out of the room. So you basically preface your counteroffer with like the worst thing they could say about you, and then they typically say, “That’s not true at all.”

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: So I love the accusation audit. So simple, it’s kind of easy to remember. And I think it just lays I think the groundwork for just great conversation and hopefully a resolution.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. And then let’s wrap up with the goal of getting to a “That’s right.” I remember when I was listening to an interview with Chris Voss, this was a part that I heard and I thought, wow, that’s so powerful. If you can get — in the midst of this negotiation, if we can get to a “Yeah, that’s right,” the impact that could have on the impact.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so he kind of talks about it like kind of putting all of these different tools together. So it’s mirroring and labeling and kind of using I think what he calls minimal encouragement, “Uh huh,” “I see,” kind of paraphrasing what you hear from your counterpart. And then really wait for — it’s like, “Hey, did I get that right? Am I tracking?” And what you’re really looking for is a “That’s right.” He said that’s even better than a “Yes.” So one of the examples I give is when I speak with prospective clients, we’re talking about my student loans and my investment portfolio and I’m doing real budgeting, and I got a sold a life insurance policy that I think isn’t great for me. And so we go through all of these different parts of the financial plan. And I’m basically summarizing back what they’re saying. And I say, you know, at the end of it — so I’m summarizing 30 minutes of conversation. And I’m saying, “Did I get that right?” And they’re like, “Yeah, that’s right. You’re a great listener,” which I have to record for my wife sometimes because she doesn’t agree with me. So that’s what you’re looking for is “Yeah, that’s right.” This person has heard, message sent, heard, understand me. He says if you get a “You’re right,” so sometimes, again, I keep talking about my wife, I’m like, “Hey, we have to do a better job of saving for retirement,” and she’s like, “You’re right.” That’s really code for “Shut up and go away.” So it’s a “That’s right” really what we’re looking for.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome.

Tim Baker: So that’s very powerful.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great stuff. And really, just a great overall summary of some tips within the negotiation process, the steps of the negotiation process, how it fits into the financial plan. We hope folks walk away with that and just a good reminder of our comprehensive financial planning services that we do at YFP Planning. This is a great example of when we say “comprehensive,” we mean it. So it’s not just investments, it’s not just student loans. It’s really every part of the financial plan. Anything that has a dollar sign on it, we want our clients to be in conversation and working with our financial planners to make sure we’re optimizing that and looking at all parts of one’s financial plan. And here, negotiation is a good example of that. So we’ve referenced lots of resources, main one we talked about here today was “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss. We will link to that in our show notes. And as a reminder to access the show notes, you can go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/podcast, find this week’s episode, click on that and you’ll be able to access a transcription of the episode as well as the show notes and the resources. And don’t forget to join our Facebook group, the Your Financial Pharmacist Facebook group, over 6,000 members strong, pharmacy professionals all across the country committed to helping one another on their own path and walk towards financial freedom. And last but not least, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the podcast, please leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show each and every week. Have a great rest of your day.

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