Investing / Podcast

YFP 247: 10 Common Financial Mistakes Pharmacists Make

Posted on March 17, 2022November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

10 Common Financial Mistakes Pharmacists Make

On this episode, sponsored by APhA, YFP Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, talks about ten common financial mistakes pharmacists make.

Episode Summary

In this episode, Your Financial Pharmacist Co-Founder & CEO, Tim Ulbrich, PharmD, flies solo to dive into ten common financial mistakes that pharmacists make. Tim talks through the math behind the age-old retirement advice that we have all heard, “save early and save often.” He discusses some common mis-prioritization of investments that leave tax savings on the table, like prioritizing non-tax favored investment accounts. Tim further discusses two common student loan mistakes that can cost folks tens of thousands of dollars and in some cases, much more than that; paying too much interest and not maximizing PSLF. Tim shares about the importance of having an emergency fund, protecting your income, and saving for your kid’s college in the correct order. He details common financial missteps such as accepting that income is fixed (because it will change) and failing to or delaying retirement savings, plus some long-term impacts of each. Tim then wraps up with another look at tax planning and how proper tax planning each year (not just tax filing) can affect the financial plan. Lastly, Tim explains how having a financial planner that does not have your best interest in mind can be one of the biggest mistakes that you don’t have to make.

Key Points From This Episode

The number one mistake on our list: paying too much interest on your student loan debt.
Tim shares the way to shift your mindset away from the ‘monopoly money’ feeling.
Diving into student loan strategy and the different buckets to consider.
Talking about service loan forgiveness and PSLF strategy, and how to maximize these.
Why emergency funds take a back seat and how to avoid delaying getting one.
Some tips on starting your emergency fund.
Mistake number four: protecting your income.
Accepting your income is fixed, and factoring in inflation and debt loads.
Putting numbers to the retirement savings saying of ‘save early, save often.’
Investing in a way that maximizes your tax savings!
A reminder of why it’s crucial to create a tax strategy and do your tax planning.
Talking about saving out of order for kid’s college.
How to get a certified financial planner who has your best interests at heart.

Highlights

“We tend to underestimate how much interest we’re going to pay over the life of a loan and therefore, we tend to underestimate how much we’re going to actually pay out of pocket.” — Tim Ulbrich, PharmD [0:08:37]

“When it comes to insurance, the balance point here is we want to not be underinsured, we want to make sure we can protect the time but we also don’t want to be over-insured.” — Tim Ulbrich, PharmD [0:19:23]

“You can borrow for your kid’s college, but you can’t borrow for your retirement.” — Tim Ulbrich, PharmD [0:30:48]

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode

Episode Transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00.4] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here and thank you for listening to The YFP Podcast, where each week, we strive to inspire and encourage you on your path towards achieving financial freedom.

This week, I fly solo to talk about 10 common financial mistakes that pharmacists make, no judgment as I’ve made many of these mistakes myself. Some of the highlights from today’s show includes talking through two common student loan mistakes that can cost folks tens of thousands of dollars and in some cases, much more than that, the math behind the age-old advice that we’ve all heard, save early and save often, as well as talking through some common mis-prioritization of investment that leaves tax savings on the table

Now, before we hear from today’s sponsor and then jump into the show, I recognize that many listeners may not be aware of what the team at YFP planning does in working one-on-one with more than 240 households in 40 plus states. YFP planning offers free only, high-touch financial planning that is customized for the pharmacy professional. If you’re interested in learning more about working one-on-one with a certified financial planner may help you achieve your financial goals, you can book a free discovery call at yfpplanning.com.

Whether or not YFP Planning’s financial planning services are a good fit for you, know that we appreciate your support of this podcast and our mission to help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. Okay, let’s hear from today’s sponsor, and then we’ll jump into the show.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

Today’s episode of Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast is brought to you by the American Pharmacist Association. APhA is partnered with Your Financial Pharmacist to deliver personalized financial education benefits for APhA members. Throughout the year, APhA will be hosting a number of exclusive webinars covering topics like student loan debt payoff strategies, home buying, investing, insurance needs, and much more.

Join APhA now to gain premier access to these educational resources and to receive discounts on YFP products and services. You can join APhA at a 25% discount by visiting pharmacist.com/join and using the coupon code, YFP. Again, that’s pharmacist.com/join and using the coupon code YFP.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:08.5] TU: Hey everybody, Tim Ulbrich here, welcome to this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. I’m flying solo this week and we’re going to talk through 10 common financial mistakes that I see pharmacists often making, that we see pharmacists in the YFP community often making. As I mentioned in the introduction, there is no judgment here in these mistakes.

I’ve made many of these mistakes myself. My hope with this episode, through sharing some of those experiences and other common mistakes that we see folks making, is to hopefully prevent those, right? For others that are perhaps on this journey towards achieving financial freedom.

Before we jump into the 10 common mistakes that we’re going to talk about in today’s episode, I am not going to be covering a few things that are worth noting because I’m going to assume that you’ve got these bases already covered, right? Those would be things like having a budget and being intentional with your spending, so important, right?

We’ve ultimately got a certain amount of income to work with each month, we’ve got a lot of things that are competing for our attention financially, various goals, various expenses and so that budget is going to allow us to be intentional with our spending. I’m going to assume that that is already in place.

I’m also going to assume that we’ve either eliminated any high-interest rate, credit card debt that is revolving each month in a current interest or we’re going to avoid that if we possibly can, right? Very important is, we look at how the impact of that interest can really hurt us as we look at trying to achieve other goals.

Finally, of course, we need to minimize our lifestyle creep, right? For many pharmacists, we know that we see, certainly, a great income overall but that income often can be relatively flat throughout one’s career. Expenses tend to creep up on us over time, perhaps families grow, home expenses, other types of things throughout one’s career and so, we got to do our best to keep those expenses at bay and so that we can focus those limited dollars that we have on other goals each and every month.

Again, things I’m not going to cover, having that budget, being intentional, spending, avoiding, eliminating credit card debt, minimizing lifestyle creep. Now, what we are going to talk about are some common student loan mistakes, we’re going to get really tactical with some numbers that highlight why these mistakes can really have a significant negative impact and really ultimately leave a lot on the table that could be put elsewhere in the plan.

We’ll talk a little bit of our emergency funds and protecting the income. We’ll talk about a couple of things in the long-term savings, retirement side, in terms of prioritization and delaying of savings. Then I’ll wrap up by talking about tax planning as well as looking for a planner that has your best interest in mind.

All right, I hope you’re ready, I’m going to go quick, we’re going to hit a lot of information and we’re going to reference several resources throughout the show and we’ll of course, link to those who you could deep it to those deeper after the recording.

[0:04:49.0] Number one mistake on our list is paying too much interest when it comes to paying off our student loans. Now, you’ve heard me say a hundred times on this show, that pharmacists are facing significant student loan debt. The cost of 2021 to be exact, median debt load, have $170,000 as reported by the American Association Colleges of Pharmacy Graduating Student Survey.

Now, the good news is for the first time in over a decade, we’ve seen that number come down was $175,000 for the class of 2020. Bad news is, that’s still $170,000 and when we look at how interest accrues on a $170,000, those start to be really big numbers. One of the things I often say is that for me in my journey of paying off debt, when I was in school and even early on in the repayment journey, to be frank, it felt a little bit like monopoly money, right?

Once we get into active repayment, once we see the impact of that interest accruing, it starts to become really real, really quick. One of the ways I like to shift that mindset away from that feeling of monopoly money is to calculate the daily interest that is accruing on our loans. The way you do that is take your loan balance that currently remains, you multiply it by your interest rate and you divide it by 365 days.

If you were to have $170,000, let’s just say the Median debt load, $170,000 if we multiply that by 6% and assume that’s an average interest rate across our federal loans, and we divide them by 365, we’re looking at about $28 per day of interest that is accruing. $28 per day. Now, of course, as that $170,000 gets paid down to 160, 150, 140, et cetera or, and/or, we’re able to reduce that interest rate either through our process of refinancing or perhaps some forgiveness opportunity.

Then of course we’re going to see that impact of interest go down but that really is the opportunity cost that we need to be thinking about. $28 per day, if we look at the median debt load of a pharmacy graduate that is going towards interest alone as they begin that repayment period.

[0:06:47.8] One of the feelings I had early on in my repayment journey is I felt like I was spinning my wheels in terms of making substantial monthly payments but not feeling like I was really making a whole lot of progress and momentum towards getting that debt load paid off.

The reason that was and the reason that is for many of you that might be listening to this show, is because the amount of that payment that goes toward interest, right? When we look at big debt loads like 170, 180, $200,000 or perhaps even more at interest rates, six, seven percent, maybe higher on some private loans, what we see is pretty big monthly payments but we also see a lot of that that is going directly towards the interest.

Let me give you an example. If somebody has $170,000, again, let’s just use a 6% average interest rate, if we assume they’re going to pay that off over a 10 year period, that would be the standard repayment option, 120 fixed monthly payments, what we see is a monthly payment of about $1,900 per month for 120 payments or 10 years. $1,900, fixed payment for 10 years.

Now, of that $1,900 that first payment, about $1,000, 45% or so is going to go towards principal and about $850 is going to go towards interest. Right out of the gates, we see that in a standard 10-year repayment about half is going to put a dent in the actual principle and about half is going to go towards interest. And of course, with each monthly payment that we make, we’re going to see a little bit more going toward principle and a little bit less going towards interest.

[0:08:19.2] This is why folks often feel like, “Hey Tim, I’m making big monthly payments but I don’t feel like I’m progressing as quickly as I would like to in terms of getting this paid off” and that’s because of the interest that is accruing on those payments.

One of the common mistakes here that we’re talking about in terms of paying too much interest is we tend to underestimate how much interest we’re going to pay over the life of a loan and therefore, we tend to underestimate how much we’re going to actually pay out of pocket.

I see this all the time and talk with the pharmacy students, they may say, “Hey, I’m borrowing $20,000 a semester” let’s say for tuition cost, the living expenses, they multiply it by eight semesters and they think, “Hey, that’s roughly my student loan debt number.”

Now, what they’re forgetting is of course the interest that’s accruing while they’re in school, outside of administrative forbearance period, such that we’re in right now, and they’re also not including the interest that’s going to accrue while they’re in active repayment, right?

If we’re looking at a 10 year, perhaps for some it’s even a little bit longer repayment journey, then we’re going to see a significant amount of interest that’s also accruing throughout the life of a loan.

That’s why often, folks look up and say, “Wow, that’s a lot more that’s getting paid back than I really had anticipated was going to initially be the case.” What we want to be thinking about here as we talk about this first common mistake, paying too much interest is, what can we be doing to minimize the interest that we’re paying?

[0:09:38.9] That’s where we really get into student loan repayment strategy, right? A topic we have covered, lots of different ways on this show and there’s several different buckets that we need to consider.

That could be tuition reimbursement programs, forgiveness programs, either public service or nonpublic service loan forgiveness programs or we’re going to pay them off but we have an option perhaps to move our loans into the private sector through a refinance that’s going to help us reduce that interest.

The first couple of areas that come to mind if I’m thinking about, “Hey, how can I avoid paying too much interest?” is number one, could I have somebody else pay the bill, right? That could either be through a tuition reimbursement program or through forgiveness, whether that’s PSLF offer or non-PSLF, if that’s not viable or of interest, then perhaps, might I be able to reduce my interest rate through a process of refinancing.

One of the things that we want to avoid is staying in a status quo position in terms of staying in the federal system, paying a high-interest rate, or paying a high private rate, if there’s a better option out there, whether that be forgiveness or whether that be considering a refinance.

A couple of things to think about as we talk about that first mistake of paying too much interest and I’m going to reference a resource here where you can dig more into student loan repayment strategies to evaluate that further.

[0:10:50.9] Number two mistake on our list of 10 is not maximizing public service loan forgiveness. Now, we have talked about this on the show extensively but I feel the need to continue to shout from the mountain top about this topic because there’s a lot of folks that maybe have the option or pursue public service loan forgiveness and for whatever reason aren’t making that choice or folks that are kind of half in and they’re half out, right?

We’re leaving something on the table. When it comes to public service loan forgiveness, assuming that’s the right play for you and your personal financial situation, if we go that pathway, the goal is optimize and maximize forgiveness and minimize what’s out of pocket, right?

When I say, the common mistake here is not maximizing PSLF, what I’m referring to is that we’re leaving something on the table, either we’re paying more interest that we could have forgiven, or/and potentially, we’re not optimizing certain situations that would allow us to be able to also save through our forgiveness period.

One of the things we need to do here is actually break down the numbers of what this means for your personal situation. Now, I’m not going to go through the rules of PSLF, again, we’ve talked about that extensively on the show before, highlights here, we have to work for the right type of employer so 501(c)(3), not for profit or federal government agency or organization.

You have to be in the right kind of loan, so a direct loan, we’ve had some provisions with the Biden administration that have allowed some forgiveness and latitude on that, we’re going to talk about that more in an upcoming show. You have to be in the right repayment plan, which is an income-driven repayment plan.

[0:12:22.8] You have to make 120 payments and be consecutive but 120 qualifying payments before you’re ultimately applying for and receive tax-free forgiveness. Now, one of the things folks often omit, when they’re thinking about optimizing PSLF is really trying to figure out what can I be doing to pay less towards my student loans so that more is forgiven and that really gets to how the monthly payment is calculated towards your student loans when you’re in PSLF through an income-driven repayment plan.

The formula that is used is they take an amount that’s called your discretionary income and that is included of your adjusted gross income, so your taxable income reported on your tax returns, so your AGI, minus 150% of the property level, that is your discretionary income and then that gets multiplied by a certain percentage.

Just by definition of that calculation, there’s some things that we can do if we look at that discretionary income. That AGI minus that 150% poverty level, hopefully, you’re asking yourself, “What could I be doing to lower my AGI?” right? We don’t want to make less money but, “What I could be doing in terms of optimizing strategies to lower my AGI so that I can pay less towards my student loans, increase the amount that’s forgiven, and perhaps also, move forward other financial goals at the same time?”

What we know, what you know from listening to the show is there are strategies that we could do to lower our AGI, right? We think about accounts like 401(k) contributions, 403(b) contributions, HSA contributions. This is where we get to the strategy and the numbers start to become pretty wild in terms of not only optimizing what is forgiven tax-free but also, what could we be putting towards investments that over this repayment period of 10 years with PSLF, we also take advantage of compound interest and compound growth over that period of time.

[0:14:16.0] You know, it doesn’t take a whole lot of whole numbers in terms of putting money away at three, five, seven percent of compounded growth each year. Again, it’s not just the tax-free forgiveness that of course is a huge benefit but also, what can we be doing to moving forward in accelerating our investment plan. That’s the second mistake, not optimizing our PSLF strategy.

Now, a couple of resources I want to point you to here. Student loan repayment, you’ve heard me say it many times, one of the most important decisions pharmacists are going to make early in their career, one that we don’t want to walk into blindly, one that we don’t want to replicate what somebody else is doing that may not be a good fit for our situation.

This decision can be the difference, easily of tens of thousands of dollars, if not more, based on the option you choose and so, I really want you to invest the time and the energy to understanding this loan repayment options, as nuanced as they are. We’ve got a great comprehensive resource, The Ultimate Guide to Pay Back Pharmacy School Loans. It’s a free blog, comprehensive, almost like an ebook, to be honest, you can download that, read that blog at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/ultimate and we’ll link to that in the show notes.

Now, for those of you that are saying, “Hey, the information is great but I want one-on-one help with an expert that knows this in and out.” We do have a one-on-one student loan analysis survey that pairs you up with a YFP Planning certified financial planner and the goal of that is to analyze all of your options and ultimately decide on the best repayment plan for your situation.

You can learn more about that service at yourfinancialpharmacist.com/sla. Again, yourfinancialpharmacist.com/sla. All right, that’s number two, not maximizing PSLF.

[0:15:57.3] Number three is delaying the emergency fund. Now, we just came off of talking about student loan repayment, right? That’s a gorilla that is often in the room. Many folks are also trying to think about saving and investing for the future, perhaps there’s a home purchase, kids that might be involved, kid’s college, the expenses, and the list of expenses goes on and on.

Sometimes, the emergency fund can take a back seat for a couple of reasons. Number one, it’s not very exciting, when you think about making progress on our debt, to become ultimately debt-free whether that’s by paying them off or forgiveness or saving for investing for the future.

Those are typically a little bit more exciting goals to be thinking about. Putting money away in a savings account that’s going to earn minimal but not too exciting amount of interest and it’s there if we need it but hopefully, you don’t, not super exciting, right?

This often may fall by the wayside but the purpose and the goal of that emergency fund is to protect the financial plan when, not if, but when an emergency happens, and work from a position of financial strength with the rest of the plan, right?

[0:16:57.2] This could be a short-term job loss, gap of employment, this could be a health emergency, an emergency with the home, the list of things that could be involved here obviously go on and speaking from personal situations, something will come up at some point, probably not too distant in the futures that is going to require you to tap into this emergency fund.

Generally speaking, our target here is three to six months’ worth of essential expenses. Not to say three to six months’ worth of income but three to six months’ worth of our essential expense because there can be a place where we have too much in this emergency fund. Obviously, we want to be comfortable with that amount but too much means opportunity cost of dollars that could be used elsewhere in the plan.

Now, in terms of where to put it, generally speaking, we’re going to be looking at a long-term savings account, a money market account, somewhere that we can get to the money, it’s a liquid, it’s accessible, it’s running a little bit of interest more than you’re going to see in a checking account, typically which is closer to zero.

Maybe you’re going to getting 0.4, 0.5, 0.6 right now, not too exciting, we’re getting a little bit of interest but it’s a liquid, it’s accessible, this is not the place we’re trying to take a risk with our financial plan, right? We’re going to do that in the savings and investing for the future.

[0:18:05.9] Now, one of the tips that I could share with folks is I think it’s incredibly helpful to get these dollars out of your checking account, right? This really gets to the intentionality of the financial planning.

If we have a bunch of money lumped into our checking account that is for our month-to-month expenses and then we say, “Yeah, I’ve got some of that, that’s earmarked also for an emergency fund,” get it out of the checking account, put it in a separate savings account. Number one, out of sight, out of mind.

Number two, we’re really going to call that account an emergency fund and that’s going to show us our intentionality towards building that and protecting it and getting that out of our month-to-month checking account where we’re either doing our expenses or that we have tied to a credit card where those expenses are charged, so that’s number three.

[0:18:44.0]: Number four is not protecting your income and this obviously gets to a whole laundry list of types of insurance we need to be thinking about including health, home, auto, renters, and so forth, professional liability.

The two that I just wanted to touch on briefly here are term life and long-term disability, and one of the things I often share with pharmacists is “Hey if you are going to do the hard work to really figure out how we’re going to manage just a $170,000 student loan debt if you are going to do the hard work to build a nest egg and a retirement portfolio, we’ve also got to invest some time to make sure we’re playing defense so we are preventing the catastrophic from disrupting that progress in our financial plan. “

When it comes to insurance, the balance point here is we want to not be underinsured, right? We want to make sure we can protect the time but we also don’t want to be over-insured, which is something we often see folks might be in a position of a policy that has been sold to them that is not necessarily coverage that they need or that is in their best interest.

When we are talking about term life insurance what we are talking about here is insurance that would be able to replace your income and what that income provides in the event that you were unexpectedly passed away, right? We’re big advocates of term life insurance. Other types of life insurance out there are whole life, permanent, value types of policies not to say that those don’t have a place anywhere but for the vast majority of folks that we talk with, a coverage with a term life insurance policy might be a 20 or 30-year term.

A million, two million dollars, it really depends on your personal situation but that is going to allow for an affordable monthly payment that is a fixed monthly payment that is going to then allow us to free up dollars to be able to put towards other parts of the financial plan.

[0:20:24.9] In terms of a term life insurance by definition, let’s say somebody buys a 30-year term policy for a million dollars and they’re 30 years old, they are going to pay a monthly or annual premium, depending on how the policy is set that is a fixed monthly payment over that policy length, so it will be a 30-year policy in this case. From 30 to 60 years old in that situation, they would pay a monthly or annual premium.

Now, if they were to die unexpectedly at some point, so let’s say at the age of 50 that person passes away, well at that point their beneficiary would receive the money that’s known as the death benefit and that would be a tax-free policy that would be paid out to the beneficiary. Now, if they don’t die in that 30 year period, which is a good thing that’s the goal, a term life insurance policy, you’re paying those premiums on but you are not going to get those dollars back, right?

If we get to 60, we’ve made it, we are still alive at that point, the policy ends and we are not going to recoup any of those dollars. We are really preventing things on the catastrophic side. We are not looking at this as an investment vehicle. Now, on the disability side, what we are talking about here is really trying to address a scenario where what if you are unable to work as a pharmacist because of a disability?

Car accident, chronic illness, whatever it may be, and obviously at that point, you are disabled and so you are unable to work, in that case, your expenses still live on but your income now here is in jeopardy. A long-term disability policy is the one that we’re often referring to here, again, monthly or annual premium, typically a percentage of your salary that you are going to purchase a policy for.

It could be a five-year, 10-year, 20-year policy up to the age of 65 so it depends on the type of policy, lots of nuances here to think about and then if you were to become disabled, there is going to be known what’s an elimination period, which is the time period between when the disability happens and when your policy kicks in and you have to self-fund that period. It might be 30 to 180 days depending on the policy and then after that point, your monthly policy kicks in to help replace your income.

[0:22:16.8] This is one of the areas we see pharmacists often overlooking and both with term and long-term disability, you may have some base coverage that is provided by your employer. It works a little bit different on the tax side of things of how that benefit is taxed or not taxed depending on where the policy lies and how the premiums are paid and really the question here is, what additional coverage might we need beyond what we have offered through our employer?

If you go to yourfinancialpharmacist.com/insurance, we’ve got two additional resources pages on term life and long-term disability where you can learn more about those and see where that fits in with your financial plan. So that is number four, not protecting your income.

[0:22:57.1] Number five is accepting that your income is fixed. Now, many pharmacists graduated in 2008. If you look at the average of pharmacists in 2008 versus what it is here in 2022, if you factor in inflation, not a whole lot has changed, right? Pharmacists tend to make a great income coming out of the gates but depending on the area of practice that they are in, that income may be relatively flat throughout their career.

All the while our expenses are going up and we also see debt loads continue to creep up through that time period. One of the things we want to be thinking about here is how can we potentially maximize our income, right? This would be a benefit to both diversify your income, so I talk with many pharmacists that might let’s say, full-time at a community pharmacy pick up some PRN hours at a hospital pharmacy so they have their foot in the door at a couple of locations.

Again, additional income but also to diversify, pharmacists that are working on side hustles and doing some medical writing or other businesses to generate additional revenue, also areas of interest. And so this could help us diversify but also can help us accelerate our financial goals, so lots to think about here and this really is very much an individualized decision and we’ve got a great resource available, 14 Extra Ways That Pharmacists Can Consider Making Additional Income. That is a blog that we have in the YFP blog, we’ll link to that in the show notes with this episode.

[0:24:19.5] Number six is delaying retirement savings. Now, many of us have been told by parents, grandparents, perhaps multiple people that you need to be saving as early and often as you can, right? Time value of money, compound interest, as Albert Einstein said, it is the eighth wonder of the world and so what we’ve been told, what we’ve been taught is the longer we delay our savings, the harder it is going to be to catch up.

I want to put some numbers to this because I think sometimes we hear that, were like, “Yeah, yeah, easier said than done. You don’t have $170,000 in student loan debt, you aren’t trying to purchase a home and doing all of these other financial goals at the same time” but the math here is really compelling.

If we look at a pharmacist who is making about the average salary of a pharmacist that’s out there if we assume they are putting away about 15% of their income and they are getting an average annual rate of return on their portfolio around 6%. So if you look at the historical rate of return of the stock market around 10% net of inflation closer to 7% and so if they are putting away 15% of their income and they have a desired retirement age of 60, what we see is by putting away about 15% of their income each and every year, if they start at the age of 25, when they get to the age of 60, they’re going to have about 2.6 million dollars saved.

Now, if they wait to the age of 30, that 2.6 turns into about 1.8. If they wait to the age of 35, that 2.6 that could have been if we started at 25 turns into 1.2 and if we wait to the age of 40, that 2.6 turns into $800,000. So that value, that advice is real, right? The earlier we invest and save, obviously we are going to have more time for that money to grow and to do its thing in terms of compound interest throughout many, many years.

Again, we’re just talking about one factor here in a vacuum as we talk about delaying retirement savings. We of course have to zoom out and consider this with other financial goals that we’re working on but ultimately, as we are able to do. We want to be focusing on starting as early as we possibly can.

[0:26:17.9] Number seven here is prioritizing non-tax favored investment accounts. Now, we talked in episodes 72 through 75, we did a series on kind of an investing 101 series meant to be a crash course for those that are wanting to learn more about investing in terminology, some of the biases associated with investing, some of the information on fees, types of accounts, 401(k)s, IRAs, et cetera and so that is a great primer if you want to go back and listen to episode 72 through 75.

What I am referring to here is investing potentially out of order. Now, this is certainly not investment advice, right? We don’t know anything about your personal situation but there is some low-hanging fruit from a tax advantage investing standpoint, right? When you think about 401(k), 403(b), employer-sponsored retirement accounts especially when we think about employer match, free money, right? We have all been told that before.

If we keep working down there, we think about things like health savings accounts, triple tax benefits. We have talked about that on the show before, Roth IRA accounts. Again, another account where we might be putting dollars in that have already been taxed but they’re going to grow tax-free, we pull them out without a future tax burden, so if we are contributing to let’s say a brokerage account, whether it is through a tool like Robin Hood or Acorns or Betterment or whatever be the app or tool. But we are not yet taking advantage of some of those other things, the question we want to ask ourselves is, are we investing in a way that’s going to allow us to maximize our tax savings, right?

Are we investing in appropriate priority? There certainly is I think a place and a role for a brokerage or taxable account but let’s be thinking about the order in which we are doing that relative to employer retirement accounts, IRAs, HSAs, and so forth.

[0:28:02.1] Number eight here is tax filing without tax planning and strategy. Now, we’ve been hitting on this in the show in the last three to six months, shout out to the team at YFP Taxes doing a great job servicing the clients of YFP planning as well as some new clients here in 2022 and what I am referring to here is someone who is doing tax preparation but is not thinking more strategically on the tax planning side.

So, if we look at a pharmacist on average, if they are making an average income working 40 years or so, and if we adjust up that salary for inflation of pharmacists throughout their career as going to earn about $9 million in their career. But only about six million of that depending on their tax situation is going to hit their bank account, so that delta of $3 million is what we want to be thinking about to pay our fair share, right? But we want to optimize how we can be able to use dollars elsewhere if we can allocate those towards a financial plan.

Tax preparation, that’s what we are all doing, we’re required to do it, right? If we don’t file our taxes by April 15, the IRS is going to be coming knocking on our door unless we file for an extension. Tax preparation is historical. It is looking backward, so it limits the impact that we can truly have on our tax liability because things have been done at that point in time, so it is mechanical, we have to file, it’s looking back.

Where tax planning is more of the forward-focus strategic part of integrating the tax plan with the financial plan. Here is where we can avoid common issues in advance, right? We can look at how we can adjust withholdings, do some projections, how can we optimize our savings accounts, how might we look at our savings and philanthropic contributions to be able to optimize those as well.

Lots of things to consider, there’s optimization strategies around long term savings accounts HSAs, 529s, we know there is tax saving strategies with PSLF, lots of child-related optimization strategies, child care credits, dependent care FSAs, maximizing charitable contributions, you know really the list goes on, right? If we are able to do more of that planning and strategy work and look ahead, then we’re obviously able to take advantage of those, so that when we do the filing, we know we have optimized the situation throughout the year.

I would reference folks to episode 233, where our director of tax, Paul Eikenberg and I talked about some tax moves to consider from an optimization standpoint and we’ll link to that in the show notes.

[0:30:27.2] Number nine here is saving for kids college out of order. Guilty as charged, right? I found myself in this trap and as I reflect on that, I think about, “Well, why was that the case?” right? I knew about tax advantage, retirement vehicles, I knew that I have been given the advice over and over again that you can borrow for college, you can borrow for your kid’s college, but you can’t borrow for your retirement, so why was I not focused on the correct order of that?

The more I thought about that, was that it was my reaction to my own journey of not wanting to see my kids incur a couple hundred thousand dollars of student loan debt, right? I think for many pharmacists, that may be the same thing where they are going through their own journey, they are living through that, obviously, the pain of it may be right in front of them right now. And therefore, they might be looking at saving in a 529 account with good intentions, but are we doing that in the right order, right?

This is a great example of where we don’t want to look at one part of the financial plan and the silo because if we just answer the question, saving for kid’s college in a 529, is that a good financial move? Sure, there is tax benefits in doing that especially if we look at the potential growth over 10, 15, or 20 years. If we zoom out and look at what else we’re doing to financial plan that may or may not be the move to make at that time.

We talked on episode 211, the ins and outs of the 529 college savings plans and we’ll link to that in the show notes for more information.

[0:31:51.5] Finally number 10, hiring a planner that does not have your best interest in mind. Now full disclaimer of the bias of the planning services that are offered by YFP Planning, we wholeheartedly believe in fee-only financial planning and we’ll talk about that here in the moment. Obviously, I have a bias towards the services that the team at YFP planning offers, so we need to keep that in mind as we talk about this tenth point.

Now, we talked on episodes 15, 16, and 17 way back when we did a three-part series on working with a planner, what to look for, questions to ask and we also talked about why fee-only financial planning matters. When you think about working with a financial planner here, is the term financial planner or adviser in it itself does not necessarily mean something that we can hang our hat on, right?

We, in the pharmacy world, we’re used to the PharmD board certifications and residencies. We know exactly what those credentials mean and there is a relative amount of consistency in those credentials, so that when someone says, “I completed a PGY-1 residency.” We know what that means.

When it comes to financial planning, financial advisors, wealth managers, wealth advisers, there are a wide variety in terms of education, training, and experience. And what those services look like that will inform and help inform whether or not those may be a good fit for you. So we need to be looking at, what is the educational background of these individuals, what is the credential, how are these individuals regulated?

We firmly believe in the certified financial planner credential, we’ve got five CFPs on the YFP planning team. The CFP is certainly not a credential that is required to do financial planning but very robust in terms of the requirements of the educational portion of the CFP or rigorous examination to pass as well as an experiential component that we would think of as like appys in terms of pharmacy education.

[0:33:42.7] Other things to consider here, I have mentioned the term fee-only, so fee-only by definition is that you are paying the planner and the planning team for the advice that they are giving, so they are not getting paid by recommending products such as insurance or investments where they’d be on a commission, and obviously a potential bias on that recommendation. And then we also really encourage folks to look at whether we are or are not the solution that is the best fit, someone who really offers comprehensive financial planning.

The reason that’s important is that historically, the industry has focused a lot on investments and insurance, you know, think of folks that might be a little bit further along in their career, they have a substantial amount of assets to manage. And so, often there may be a minimum of assets to work with a firm, but when it comes to other things that might be of significance like student loan debt, like some of the early insurance discussions.

Like, “Hey, I am thinking about starting a business or a side hustle” or “I’m looking at purchasing a home or investing in real estate” or “What about the estate plan?” or “What about the tax part of the financial plan?” Making sure the adviser regardless of the stage that you are in of your career, making sure the adviser and the advising team has the expertise and the experience to be able to serve you and the needs that you have for your financial plan.

When it comes to working with YFP Planning, we’re really proud of the work that the planning team does. I mentioned five CFPs, shoutout to our lead planners, Robert Lopez and Kelly Reddy-Heffner who lead those two teams, working with Robert is Kim CFP and Savannah, working with Kelly is Christina, CFP, and Sarah. And then we also have a tax team that supports the financial planning.

We are currently working with about 250 households and over 40 states all across the country, very robust in terms of the comprehensive nature of the plan. For folks that are interested in learning more about that service and what it would look like in terms of working one-on-one with a YFP certified financial planner, you can visit, yfpplanning.com, and you can book a free discovery call with Justin Woods, also a pharmacist who is our director of business development.

[0:35:40.8] Well, that’s 10 common financial mistakes that we see pharmacists making. I really appreciate you joining me on this week’s episode and we’ll see you here again next week.

[END OF DISCUSSION]

[0:35:48.4] TU: Before we wrap up today’s episode of Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, I want to again thank our sponsor, The American Pharmacist Association. APHA is every pharmacist’s ally advocating on your behalf for better working conditions, fair PBM practices and more opportunities for pharmacists to provide care.

Make sure to join a bolder APHA to gain premier access to financial educational resources and to receive discounts on YFP products and services. You can join APHA at a 25% discount by visiting pharmacist.com/join and using the coupon code, “YFP”. Again, that’s pharmacist.com/join and using the coupon code “YFP”.

[DISCLAIMER]

[0:36:28.5] TU: As we conclude this week’s podcast, an important reminder that the content on this show is provided to you for informational purposes only and it is not intended to provide and should not be relied on for investment or any other advice. Information of the podcast and corresponding materials should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any investment or related financial products. We urge listeners to consult with a financial advisor with respect to any investment.

Furthermore, the information contained in our archived newsletters, blog post and podcast is not updated and may not be accurate at the time you listen to it on the podcast. Opinions and analysis expressed herein are solely those of your financial pharmacist unless otherwise noted and constitute judgments as of the dates published. Such information may contain forward looking statements, which are not intended to be guarantees of future events. Actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in the forward looking statements. For more information, please visit yourfinancialpharmacist.com/disclaimer.

Thank you again for your support of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 225: How to Navigate Open Enrollment and Employer Benefits

Posted on October 14, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

How to Navigate Open Enrollment and Employer Benefits

On this episode, sponsored by GoodRx, Tim Baker, YFP Co-founder and YFP Planning Director of Financial Planning, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about open enrollment and evaluating employer benefits. Tim and Tim dig into:

Considerations for choosing a health insurance plan
How to determine whether or not your employer-provided life and disability insurance is sufficient (one of the most common questions we get)
Understanding the differences between an FSA, Dependent Care FSA, and HSA
What to be looking for when putting money into your employer-sponsored retirement plan.

Summary

This week on the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, Tim Ulbrich sits down with YFP co-owner and Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, to discuss open enrollment and the process of evaluating employer benefits. As you go into making your benefit selections for 2022, Tim and Tim share some considerations for choosing a health insurance plan and how to determine whether or not your employer-provided life and disability insurance are sufficient. Tim and Tim provide a general overview into understanding the differences between an FSA, Dependent Care FSA, and HSA and what to be looking for when putting money into your employer-sponsored retirement plan.

Whether you are reviewing your benefits for the first time or are a seasoned professional with open enrollment, there are many factors to consider. Pharmacists may not think to consult with their financial planners when it comes to open enrollment or the process of evaluating employer benefits, but these decisions affect the financial plan. When choosing a plan for the coming year, pharmacists should consider future life events or changes impacting money spent on medical expenses such as a child being born, marriage or divorce, coverage for a significant other, or a child aging out of medical coverage. The open enrollment period is a time to review history in medical spending, how much is spent out of pocket, and how to optimize benefits and cost savings based on those findings.

Tim Baker touches on life insurance and disability insurance, how to calculate your total need, transferability issues to consider when deciding whether or not to purchase a policy outside of your employer policy, and tax considerations.

Tim Ulbrich closes out by breaking down the differences between an FSA, DCFSA, and HSA. He also touches on retirement savings accounts in conjunction with open enrollment and the opportunity to re-evaluate investing and savings goals and how each fits in with the financial plan.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, glad to have you back on the show.

Tim Baker: Yeah, good to be here, Tim. Looking forward to getting into open enrollment discussion. ‘Tis the season. So yeah, I’m ready for it.

Tim Ulbrich: ‘Tis the season indeed. Fall is in the air officially here in Ohio, which does mean it’s almost time for open enrollment and ensuring that we’re taking the time to understand and maximize employer benefits. And I think whether someone is reviewing their benefits for the first time, whether that’s accepting a new position, going through another round of open enrollment, a lot to consider here, including insurance, retirement accounts and HSAs, FSAs, to name a few. So Tim, our team at YFP Planning includes employer benefits as a part of the planning process, perhaps an area that folks don’t necessarily associate working with their financial planner on. So how does this part, employer benefits, factor into the financial plan? And why is it so important that we’re looking at it in the planning process?

Tim Baker: Yeah, I think this is another area, Tim, where like when we say, “comprehensive,” we mean comprehensive. And it’s just like kind of the same conversation with things like home purchase. Most financial advisors are not going to kind of walk you through kind of the A-Z of buying a home because most of the time, a financial advisor is working with people in their 50s, 60s, 70s, right? And the reason for that is because those are the people that have assets, and that’s how they charge their fee. We have many, many, many clients that are in their 20s and 30s. And things like home purchase is really important and is often a big step in their financial journey and their financial plan. So we kind of take the time to go through that based on, I know you’ve said it, I’ve said it, we’ve messed those transactions up in the past, and we just don’t want to see our clients do the same thing. So open enrollment is kind of the same thing. A lot of financial advisors don’t really talk about this stuff because if you’re working with people in their 50s, 60s, like they’ve done it dozens of times, right? So they’ve gone through this. And a lot of our clients haven’t. You know, it’s not something that is kind of what we understand. And so to define open enrollment, open enrollment is the period of time where you can purchase or apply for health insurance for the upcoming year without a qualifying event. And usually a qualifying event is something like a marriage or a divorce or a birth of a child. So it’s typically very centered on the health insurance plan because that’s the big piece of the benefits. But then what the employer does is kind of have you opt out of other benefits that they might offer, which might be life insurance, disability, I’ve even seen things like pet insurance and things like that. You know, some things that are not insurance-related could be like a legal benefit. So that’s what this is is open enrollment. And it’s important because your employer benefits are a major component of your compensation package. And you know, this is kind of the conversation that goes back to things like salary negotiation is I’ve seen clients, they’ll say, “Hey, I’m making $110,000,” and they get an offer for $120,000 but they take a major step back with regard to their total compensation because of the benefits that are associated with that. I think it’s really important to understand what the employer benefits are and how to assess that. So that’s really what’s at stake here is really understanding that piece. And we know this, Tim, because when we plan to hire someone, we know that it’s not just about the salary pay. We apply a multiple on top of that because we know that the benefits that we’re going to provide for the employee are going to be above and beyond that. So that total cost or what I would say is an investment in that person is really beyond the salary. So this is what is really that bell to that. We’re trying to assess an an employee to say, OK, how can I best optimize this part of my compensation. And I would say that there is a lot, you know, a lot of people that don’t necessarily fully optimize this part of their financial plan or give it the attention that it needs because it sneaks up on us or bad information or what have you. So that’s really kind of the overall picture here of what it is and why it’s important.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and Tim, I think when you say sneaks up on us, bad information, it’s important I think for folks, basic stuff before we jump into individual benefits, you know, know your dates, obviously what’s the time span. You know, a lot of employers, depending on how they organize this, will do informational sessions, open Q&As, one-on-ones, group, and some of that might be automated, depending on the system and the platform they’re using. But making sure, understanding the dates, you know, simple things, how much time do you have if you’re going to be on vacation, things like that, making sure you can coordinate with HR. And then also, you know, just taking a look at your pay stub and your benefits. What do you currently have? And really taking a pulse on — and I think just a chance to go back and what’s gross pay, what’s net pay, what’s coming out in benefits, and taking this time that comes around every year as a chance to revisit some of these things that we want to be looking at often. And then of course, just thinking about upcoming changes, right, that might be happening. You know, I think of things like children that might be beneficiaries on the healthcare side, aging out if you think about 26 or folks that might be expecting or perhaps getting married, things that might have an impact on their benefits, considering those things as you’re in the benefits selection. And then of course just refreshing and updating the evaluation of who are the beneficiaries that are listed on certain policies. Tim, I want to start with health insurance. You know, I think it’s the one that typically carries the biggest price tag as we think about it relative to the other insurance and typically carries more options than things like dental and vision and life and disability, which I think for many employers it’s more of a one-way type of option. So the big question here is how do I determine which one to get? And of course, all plans are created differently but when folks are looking at these and you’re evaluating the deductibles and maximum out-of-pockets and premiums and copays and coinsurance, unfortunately, it’s a system that even though our audience is comfortable with all of those numbers because they live in it in the job that they’ve done or have been trained in it previously, there’s just a lot to consider. And if you look at plans, let’s consider a three-tiered plan where you’ve got like a bronze, silver, gold option, you know, you’re looking at OK, less out of pocket, more out of pocket, better coverage, but perhaps I could have lower out of pocket and I could use that money elsewhere. Like general framework, how do you begin to help clients think through this decision and not just look at it in a silo but also consider it in the context of the rest of the plan?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think it’s — you know, everyone can say it with me — it depends, right? So you know, I think a lot of it depends on past history or — you know, you mentioned a few things like what’s kind of on the horizon? Is it getting married or having kids? And some of those will allow you to kind of elect insurance outside of the open enrollment period. But those are typically qualifying events. But you know, an example is when we had Liam, when Shea was pregnant with Liam, we opted out of the bronze package, you know, the HSA plan to more of a gold package because we knew that the doctor bills and the hospital bills were going to be there. Our thought process was, you know, although in most cases we’re not going to the doctor a lot, you know, during a normal year, well, electing to a higher deductible plan, which means less coming out of our paycheck but then when we do go to the doctor, there’s going to be potentially more coming out of our pocket. So we did that to get in front of it a little bit. And you know, that’s really important from a planning perspective and kind of mitigating as much of the costs — and we probably saved ourselves if we did the math $1,000 by doing that. So that’s an important part of the plan. Now, sometimes things are going to come up and you’re just not going to — you know, it’s kind of like that emergency fund. You’re just not going to know for the future. But I would say is it’s a little bit of an exercise in looking at your past history, so looking at how often you’re going to the doctor and how often you’re reaching into your pocket to pay for things like copays and things like that. But then also projecting it forward, so that’s kind of where the conversation starts is that, you know, if you’re a younger, healthy professional and you’re not really going to the doctor, then you probably should really consider kind of a bronze, high-deductible, HDHP plan and couple that with the HSA, which we’ve said is a great forum to stash dollars. If you’re looking at regular doctor visits because of a chronic issue or something like that, that’s not going to be for you, regardless of your age. You just know that you’re going to be in and out of the doctor’s office. So I think it’s really looking at, again, kind of the budget and seeing what money has been spent on healthcare costs in the past and then what you think, project those going forward. And like I said, like this is not — it’s important, but these are taking it like snapshots one year at a time. So you can — like after Liam was born and the medical expenses were gone, then we went back to the high-deductible plan with the HSA. So I think it’s really important to kind of take stock of kind of your history, your medical history, your spending on healthcare, to form the baseline of your decision in that realm. The other comment I would make, Tim, is not all 401k’s are created equal. And as many of us know, not all health plans are created equal. So some are really, really great, and some are really, really terrible. And sometimes, that has to do with the size of the organization, sometimes the economies to scale, the bigger that you are, the less that each participant pays, whether that’s the 401k or the health insurance plan. So you kind of have to work with the sandbox, you know, that you’re playing in, so to speak, and something that can be very much out of your control.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think, Tim, your example of Liam is a great reminder of not putting open enrollment on auto pilot.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think that’s what we’re trying to stress here is like, using this as a chance to re-evaluate each year, you know, what happened last year? What worked last year may or may not be what makes sense for this year for a variety of reasons. And I think this is certainly a place where we want to be evaluating what does the cash position look like? What does the reserves look like? And how do we feel about that? Especially if we’re going to be opting into a high-deductible health plan, you know, thinking worst case scenario — hopefully never happens — looking at those out-of-pocket maxes and really asking yourself, how comfortable are we with that happening? How does that make us feel? And could we weather that storm if it were to come?

Tim Baker: Yeah, and you know, and we’ve had some tough conversations with clients that are deep in credit card debt and they really need as much of their income to kind of like right the ship and get going, so sometimes it means sacrificing or being uncomfortable here. You know, one of the things I look at is like if we look at all the debts that are out there, medical debt is not necessarily a bad debt in terms of like they reformed a lot of things with it hurting your credit because it’s kind of been a nightmare, you’re typically not gouged with higher interest rates and things like that. So typically more forgiven. I would even say push back on a lot of medical debt because it’s wrong. I think Tim, you had a story about that when one of your sons was born. So there’s a little bit more give I would say than some of these other ones that goes like right to collections and you’re in a lot of trouble. So it’s kind of — this is all about like mitigating the risk and trying to understand where can we give a little bit so we’re OK.

Tim Ulbrich: I want to shift gears, Tim, to life and disability. Probably one of the most common questions that we get is, do I need to purchase additional life and disability insurance beyond what my employer covers? And of course the answer is it depends on a large part of the individual’s situation and what they have going on and what they’re trying to do with those policies and so forth. But you know, general thoughts and discussion on how one goes about making this decision in terms of understanding what coverage is there from an employer standpoint, determining what total coverage may be needed, and some of the gap and differences between an employer plan and if they purchased a policy out on the open market.

Tim Baker: I think if we look at most pharmacists out there, you know, professionals that are making a six-figure salary, I think there’s going to come a time when there probably is a need to purchase policies outside of what the employer provides. Now, the problem with the financial services industry is that a lot of “financial advisors” are trying to push those policies on a young professional when they probably don’t need them. That’s when you’re a pharmacist that has maybe six figures of debt that’s going to be forgiven if you die or are disabled with no dependents and really, you know, not much on your balance sheet. So there’s kind of like this gap of do I really need this? Or can I just make do with what my employer provides? I’ll say this about the employer-provided policies: Outside of health insurance, which is a health plan, I would say that things like life and disability insurance are not plans. They’re really perks. So they’re meant to supplement or meant to provide some type of benefit that will help the employee but also it’s a way to kind of retain you and things like that. So I really view these as perks and not necessarily plans. I would say, to your point, Tim, I think it’s really looking at the individual and say OK, does it make sense to buy a policy outside of that? Most employers will provide some type of life insurance benefit, whether it’s something like $50,000 or one or two times income, which you can then elect to either increase your coverage or not. I think the downside of that is, you know, if you’re working for an employer as a 30-year-old and you have all of your eggs in that basket and you’re saying, “Hey, I have $1 million” or a lot of times, they’re capped. Most times, pharmacists need a lot more than what their employer can provide. So that’s one of the drawbacks. But if you’re working with that company for 40 years and then you leave to go to another organization, which maybe that isn’t provided or it’s a lot less of a benefit, you have a gap, then you’re going out in the market 10 years older where you’re paying a lot more for that particular policy. So that’s one of the things that — sometimes they’re portable, meaning that you can take them with you, and sometimes they’re not. So for both the life and disability, you know, it’s really looking at your own situation. Just like open enrollment itself, this is one of the things that often overlooked, just insurance. And I know we’ve probably done a podcast in the past about what’s proper life and disability and things like that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: For the disability, the coverage is typically going to be a percentage of your income. And again, it could be capped, and some employers will offer both long-term and short-term disability. You know, both are great. But you know, oftentimes, because of one reason or another, there’s going to be a gap in the coverage either because of taxes or just that a pharmacist, what they make and what most professionals will say that you need to kind of cover down and typically, that can be anywhere from 50-80% of what your income is, that there is a need to go out onto the open market and buy individual policies. But from an open enrollment perspective, I think if you don’t have those policies, it’s really important to understand, you know, what is there for you? And what can at least tide you over until you get those policies in place? And again, it’s one of those things where it’s like, it’s not important to you until it’s important to you. And it’s really hard to kind of, to show that to clients unless they’ve experienced that pain themselves or a close family member.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: But it’s going to be a really important piece of protecting the overall financial plan, which is — this is really what this is all about is, you know, insurance is really protecting the financial plan from a catastrophic event and ensuring that you can continue to build wealth and survive into the future.

Tim Ulbrich: Episode 044, Tim, How to Determine Life Insurance Needs, 045, How to Determine Disability Insurance Needs, two that we’ll link to in the show notes. We’ve got more information on the website as well, YourFinancialPharmacist.com. Tim, I think one of the common mistakes I see made here just relating to that discussion on gap in coverage is not digging into the policies to really understand, you know, life insurance is maybe the most obvious example where if you have a policy — if you have a need for life insurance and you have a term policy that’s offered for $50,000 or $100,000 or one times salary or two times salary, typically, those have a cap on them. For many folks, there’s going to be a gap and a shortage. And I think this is where, you know, sitting down one-on-one with someone to really calculate the total need, think about the transferability issues that you mentioned and what does it mean if you pick up employment, tax considerations, and really getting into the weeds of some of the nuances of the policies and things like own occupation, we’ve talked about that before and its importance. And again, thinking about how this fits in with the rest of the plan. And just a shoutout here to our fee-only financial planning team at YFP Planning, this is really where I think the value of fee-only comes in in that really sitting down with someone to determine what is their true need in their best interests. Not too much coverage that there’s dollars being spent that could be put elsewhere in the financial plan, but making sure we’re also not exposing the plan to unnecessary risk.

Tim Baker: Yeah, I mean, you know, this — what we’re talking about here are products. Like insurance is a product. So any time that you talk about dispensing a device, “Hey, Tim, you need life insurance,” and you say, “OK, great. Like where do I get it?” Like we can sell you this product. There’s going to be a conflict of interest. So having someone that is a fee-only fiduciary that is not further enriched by the advice that they’re giving, you know, strips away a lot of that, well, am I being advised in my best interests or in the advisor’s best interests, the one that’s advising me. So that’s I think the beauty of fee-only.

Tim Ulbrich: One example I just want to give here, I just pulled up, Tim, our long-term disability coverage that we added recently for the YFP team.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: And you know, if you look at it on kind of the main benefits platform, it says, “60% monthly income up to $6,000.” But this is an example where digging deeper is so valuable. You know, you get into things like what is the definition of earnings? So our policy, it’s base wage. So how you’re compensated could have an impact here.

Tim Baker: Yep.

Tim Ulbrich: What’s the elimination period or the timeframe from when the disability happens to when the benefit starts to pay out? Here, it’s 90 days. But if it’s shorter than that, perhaps longer than that, what’s the game plan to fund. Does it have own occupation coverage? We’ve talked about the importance of that before. What’s the maximum benefit? Our policy goes up to age 65. And then things like coverage restrictions, other incentives. So really, just a reminder of this time period and using this point here to really dig into this information and read the policies.

Tim Baker: Yeah, you know, and again, going back to those episodes you mentioned there, that’s where we kind of talk about the nitty-gritty, but I think the beautiful thing about this is like when we’re reviewing this and we kind of look at the — kind of go through the open enrollment optimization stuff is like as a planner, I’m looking at your balance sheet. So I’m like, alright, does it make sense to bolster — you know, because a lot of these, you can opt in. So like our policy doesn’t do this, but a lot of policies, they’ll say, “The employer pays for a 60% benefit of your earnings.” But then you can opt in to get that up to 80%. So you pay an additional — you pay out of pocket out of your paycheck for that additional 20%. If I’m looking at your balance sheet, Tim, and I’m saying, “Man, you have plenty of cash,” I would say, “Let’s not opt into that.” Or we might say, “Let’s do it,” because we know because the employer is going to pay for it, that that benefit’s going to be taxed.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: If the employer pays for the benefit, it’s going to be taxed. That’s the gap. You know, so the idea is looking at your situation and overlaying what’s out there. I think the open enrollment, what I say is we want to look at the things that you’re paying for and say, does it make sense for you to be paying for it? I see a lot of AD&D insurance, and I kind of look at this as like — and again, this is not advice — but I kind of look at those as like when you buy something at Best Buy and they ask you about the warranty. You know, most of the time, you say no because it’s just not worth the money. Some of these things in open enrollment, it’s the same thing. It’s like AD&D, for those to pay out is very rare. So even if it’s $2 per pay period, I’m like, I just don’t think it’s worth it. So we’re trying to make sure that you’re not paying for things that don’t necessarily provide you much benefit, much utility. But then you are paying for things that do. And you know, kind of finding that Venn diagram of sorts to make sure that, again, we’re fully optimized with regard to this part of your compensation package.

Tim Ulbrich: AD&D, for folks that are wondering, Accidental Death & Dismemberment insurance.

Tim Baker: Oh yeah. Yep.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker dropping some financial lingo here.

Tim Baker: Sorry about that. Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, next I want to talk about FSAs, dependent care FSAs, especially since we’ve had some changes that have happened there as well as HSAs. And we’ve talked probably among these to the greatest extent, we’ve talked about HSAs because of the value of what that can provide as well as these other options. And we’ve talked about it on the podcast, we’ve got some blog posts, Episode 165, The Power of a Health Savings Account, also have an article on the blog, which we’ll link to, about really more of the strategic investing side of an HSA if you’re able to do that. So Tim, high level overview, FSA, dependent care FSA, HSA, and some of the differences and considerations for these accounts.

Tim Baker: The very crude way that I remember the difference between FSA and HSA is FSAs are really use-or-lose. So when you fund these with pre-tax dollars, if you don’t use those monies for the purposes of healthcare for an FSA for healthcare or dependent care for a dependent care FSA, you lose it. So it’s F-udge. Like I don’t get — you don’t get to use that money. Whereas the HSA, this is — can potentially be an accrual account, meaning that year over year, you can stack Benjamins and hopefully one day becomes that kind of stealth IRA that we talk about that has that triple tax benefit. So like I said, we’ve talked about the HSA ad nauseum. It has to be paired with a high-deductible health plan. You know, you can put the money in. It has a triple tax benefit, which means it goes in pre-tax, it grows tax-free so you can invest it like an IRA, and then you can distribute it in the near term for approved medical costs or when you reach a certain age, you can use it basically for whatever. So that’s the beauty of the HSA. But you know, again, it only works or you only have access to it when it’s paired with a high-deductible health plan. The FSA for healthcare is similar, but very different. So you’re allowed to use — you’re allowed to fund it with pre-tax dollars, meaning if you make $100,000 and you put $1,000 in there, you’re taxed on as if $99,000. So I think the limits for FSA for 2021, I think it’s like $2,750.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right. Yep.

Tim Baker: Yeah. So the idea is that what you’re trying to do here — it’s a little bit of a game of chicken. So what you’re trying to do is really, again, see into the future and say, “OK, what do I know is a baseline that I’m going to use on my out-of-pocket healthcare expenses?” And if you know for sure that you’re going to spending $2,000 on that, then you should fund it with $2,000. And typically, there is a little bit of give at the end of the year where you can either carry some over or you have some time into the New Year to use it on.

Tim Ulbrich: Two months or —

Tim Baker: Yeah. And every plan is going to be different in its design. So you might be loading up on kind of some of the over-the-counter stuff. I’ve had a client buy a bunch of stuff for like contacts and things like that. So it’s going to be really important to kind of — again, this goes back to the spending plan, the budget, to understand what have you been spending in the past? Is that going to be indicative of what you will spend in the future? And then fund that with at least that baseline amount so you don’t lose it. The same thing can be said for the dependent care FSA. So this is a pre-tax account that you can fund that is used for care for your child who is age 13, for before- and after-school care, babysitting, nanny expenses, daycare, nursery school, preschool, summer day camp, and then also care for a spouse or a relative who is physically or mentally unable to care for themselves and lives in your home. So this money — this has actually been amended under the American Rescue Plan Act. So I think for single and married filing jointly couples, the pre-tax contribution limit went from where you could $5,000 a year, now it’s I think $10,500.

Tim Ulbrich: Significant jump. Yep.

Tim Baker: Yeah, very significant. So the higher limits apply to the plan year beginning Dec. 31, 2020 and before Jan. 1, 2022. So it is a temporary thing, but it allows you to park some dollars that you would otherwise — so if you’re in a 25% tax bracket, it’s as if you’re saving 25%, kind of thinking about it that way. So that’s what really — and for the FSAs, unlike the HSA, the FSA is — it has to be provided by the employer. I think we had a question on the Ask a YFP CFP about the HSA. And you don’t have to necessarily go through your employer. Sometimes, the employer doesn’t offer it. So you can go out and set up your own HSA. The FSA has to be provided by the employer for you to have access to it. So that’s really important. Again, these are all going to be — when you elect it, it’s going to take money out of your paycheck and basically fund these accounts for the appropriate purpose.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and this to me is where when we’ve talked with Paul Eikenberg, our director of tax, and working with our clients, one of the things he talks about here is these being untapped areas of potential.

Tim Baker: Totally.

Tim Ulbrich: And so I think there’s a lot of low-hanging fruit in the financial plan. And I think really evaluating these and perhaps the dollars of any one don’t jump out as being super significant, but I think as we start to add these up with other strategies, there certainly is value. And Tim, you had mentioned we did tackle a question recently on Ask a YFP CFP 084. The question was about fees on an HSA account, but we did talk about the opportunity to access an HSA account independent of the employer. So we’ve talked about health insurance, we’ve talked about life and disability, we’ve talked about FSAs and HSAs and dependent care FSAs. I want to wrap up our discussion by retirement saving options. And I think, again, this is an opportunity to take a step back, look at the overall progress on the investing part of the plan, overall goals, perhaps gap between the goals and where you’re currently at, and then to evaluate where does investing fit in with the rest of the financial plan. And so when we think about, Tim, employer-sponsored retirement accounts, two main buckets we have, which are those that are Roth contributions and those that are traditional. So define for us the difference between those two for folks that are — maybe have some outstanding questions about those or unsure as well as the limits of what we’re able to do in 2021.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so — and I’ll preface this by saying that most of — you know, open enrollment is a good time to check in on your retirement savings options. You’re not necessarily bound to that because you can go in —

Tim Ulbrich: Correct.

Tim Baker: — really at any time and say, “Hey, I was putting in 5%. I talked to a YFP planner, and they said I should put in 8%. That’ll put me on track to get my $5 million nest egg, so that’s what I want to do.” I can really do that at any time. Or I can say, “I want less Roth and more traditional,” or whatever the case is. So it’s just a good opportunity, it’s a good checkpoint to say, OK, where am I at and should I make any tweaks? So — and one of the things that they often do here is they allow you to put in an escalator. So you know — and you can do this any time too, but it’s a good thing to do in open enrollment so every year, you can increase that by 1% or 2% or whatever that looks like. So to answer your question, Tim, the Roth v. traditional, so most employers will offer a 401k or a 403b or if you work for the government, a TSP. So when you elect your retirement options here, a lot of them will now — you’ll have a traditional — so think of two buckets. You’ll have a traditional 401k and a Roth 401k.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: And they’re all under the same plan, but they segregate the monies because for a traditional, these are pre-tax dollars. So that example I gave you is if you put in $1,000 into your 401k and you make $100,00 — your traditional 401k — and you make $100,000, you’re taxed as if you made $99,000. For a Roth, it’s after-tax. So same example, if you put $1,000 into your Roth 401k and you make $100,000, you are taxed as if you made $100,000 because you’re not getting that pre-tax deduction. So for these dollars, the money is either taxed going in or coming out. So for a traditional, you’re not taxed going in, but then it grows tax-free inside of that account, and then you’re taxed when it is distributed, hopefully in retirement. For the Roth 401k, you’re taxed going in, so you don’t get that deduction, but then it grows tax-free and when it comes out, it’s not taxed because it’s already been taxed going in. So a lot of people will say Roth, Roth, Roth. And again, it’s going to depend on your plan. It’s going to depend on what you’re trying to achieve. And a lot of people get this wrong as well. So this is another good check on it to make sure that you’re putting the dollars in the right spot. Your match that your employer provides, if there is a match, is always going to go into a traditional account.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: So if there is a match, you’re going to have — some people get it twisted like, I’m 100% in my Roth 401k, but I see money in my traditional, like what gives? And I’m like, well, this is the money that your employer is matching. It’s going to go there, you know, regardless. So it’s really important, you know — so to kind of give you some numbers with 2021, to max out a 401k, a 403b, it’s $19,500. So you can put that in regardless of how much money you make. So that’s really going to be the limit for the 401k. IRAs are a completely different animal. They’re $6,000, this completely separate accounting mechanism. And that’s going to be dependent on your income whether you can put it in directly into a Roth or a traditional IRA and if you get the deduction. And I know we’ve had podcasts on that as well. But the point of this, Tim, is that the open enrollment exercise is a great opportunity to kind of just do a once-over for your retirement savings options and just make sure that one, you’re in the proper allocation but then it’s also in the Roth v. traditional, and then just making sure that you don’t get stuck in that hey, my employer matches 3%, so for 10 years, I’ve just been putting in 3%. You don’t want to do that because more often than not, it’s not going to be enough for you to retire comfortably. So this is another way to kind of check those things and push the envelope a little bit.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I point folks back to Episode 074, when we talked about evaluating your 401k plan, also more recently, Episode 208, when we talked about why minimizing fees on your investments is so important. Certainly relevant here as we talk about employer-sponsored retirement plans where we can see a lot of variabilities in those investment options and in the fees. As we’ve said a couple times now throughout the show, open enrollment is such a great time to take a step back and evaluate the financial plan. And for folks that are going through this process and think, you know, I really see the value in working with someone one-on-one to look at the financial plan holistically, to determine how to prioritize the goals, make some of these decisions around open enrollment, could be debt repayment, investing, tax evaluation, and so forth. We’d love to have a chance to talk with you about the YFP Planning comprehensive financial planning services that we conduct on a one-on-one basis. And you can learn more about those services as well as schedule a free discovery call by going to YFPPlanning.com. As always, thank you so much for listening. We hope you have a great rest of your week and look forward to having you join us again next week.

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YFP 213: 5 Investing Considerations for a Volatile Market

Posted on July 22, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

5 Investing Considerations for a Volatile Market

Tim Baker shares five considerations for investing in a volatile market.

Summary

Recent media attention brings to mind the current state of the investing market. In this episode, Tim Ulbrich and Tim Baker discuss five considerations for investors in this volatile market.

Investors should consider and work to understand common biases, including but not limited to overconfidence bias, loss aversion, and others. Investors should also consider their personal goals and personal philosophies relative to building wealth and living a wealthy life. In gaining a better understanding of the personal philosophy, investors should consider their risk tolerance, long-term goals, and asset allocation. As investors approach their goals through investing, targets and strategies should be revisited and revised.

Given the volatile nature of the market and how easily it can be influenced by the news cycle in the short term, investors should be mindful of groupthink, herd mentality, and investing in a silo. While it may be fun to make high-risk investment choices, those boring choices of index funds and long-term strategies are often the best financially. Generally speaking, the market shows growth over the long term despite short-term dips and drops. Being aware of your asset allocation, making safe choices, and not over-extending yourself to the detriment of your financial plan benefits new investors. Tim Baker shares that even professionals in finance benefit from guidance from a coach to help prevent those missteps with exciting but risky investment choices.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker, welcome back to the show.

Tim Baker: Hey, Tim. How’s it going? Good to be back again.

Tim Ulbrich: Excited for this episode. Now, call me old school, Tim, but I get the Wall Street Journal delivered to my house every morning. I’ve shared with you before, I hear the car coming in the driveway, it’s a feel-good. But one of the things that I couldn’t help but notice and therefore led to today’s episode is in reading the Journal, the volume of attention that has been given to investing lately, whether that be the stock market, the bond market, inflation, the housing market, crypto, meme stocks such as AMC, GameStop, Wendy’s, and so forth, you know, could be that the market is going to come crashing down or folks that think there’s going to be sustained growth, what will the Fed do or not do? All this really goes on and on. And I think if you read that news any given day and make a decision, the next day you might be kicking yourself. And so I wanted to talk in this episode about how one can have that long-term investing mindset that we have talked about often on this show in the midst of a lot of noise and attention that is out there just in the time period and the volatility that we are in right now. And so we’re going to talk through five considerations for the investor that’s going through this time period. And Tim, this really reminded me of an important philosophy that you and I adhere to and preach when we talk about long-term investing, one of the things that I’ve heard you say before is that a good investing plan should be as about as boring as watching paint dry. And Tim, this is just really hard to do in a time period like this.

Tim Baker: It really is. I mean, even sometimes I like have that moment of pause and I have those doubts. Then I quickly get over that and realize that no, stick to your guns, you know, what the market does over long periods of time is actually sufficient. And it’s that singles and doubles approach to building wealth over a period of time. But it’s easy I think to get distracted because of the news and the news cycle, especially in the times that we’re living in today. When you think about like even in the last downturn, ‘08 and ‘09, the news cycle, even just the social media presence of like what is everyone doing, and then if you go back to the ‘90s where the dot-com, that stuff is not like always in your face like it is now. So it’s like really easy to compare and contrast of what you’re doing versus what everyone else is doing and really kind of derail your long-term plan if you have a long-term plan. So you know, more so than ever before I would say, it’s like really being disciplined and kind of sticking to your guns and allowing the plan to unfold as you’ve outlined. And for a lot of people, like I said, it’s a slog because of water cooler talk, you know, about, hey, crypto, or this stock or buying houses. I just was talking to a couple the other day, and they’re like, “Yeah, we have this timeline of buying a house in the next 3-5 years, but we’re seeing our friends buy a house and them being really happy and excited, and it’s tough not to compare or tough not to get sucked up with kind of that keeping up with the Joneses mentality,” so it’s a challenge.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and it is. I mentioned I think it’s really had to stay true to that long-term approach in the midst of a time period such as this. And as we’ll talk about here in a little bit, you know, this isn’t unique. The circumstances may be, but what we’re going through in terms of volatility certainly isn’t unique, certainly is not unique. And so we’re going to talk through five considerations for folks, again, that are investing during this volatile time period in the market. Now I do want to be fair that while we’re going to talk about the long-term approach, you know, I do want to acknowledge the difficulty that is there considering the volatility that has happened. So for this show, I went and pulled the S&P 500 numbers, just as one indication that we can look at. And Tim, check this out: February 14, 2020, so that would take us back to pre-pandemic or at least our recollection of pre-pandemic before life had changed. And at that point, the S&P was 3380 on Valentine’s Day of 2020. Now, one month and one week later, March 20, 2020, it went from 3380 to 2304. And then today, it stands at 4350. So February 2020: 3380, March 2020: 2304, today: 4350. So it saw a 32% decrease in one month and a little bit of change. Then an 89% increase from that dip after the pandemic started to now. We saw an 89% increase. And if you look at the net change over the time period from February 2020 to now, it’s been up 28%. So I think it’s important that it’s perhaps a little bit easier to talk about this long-term investing approach and strategy but like these are real numbers. And you shared with me before you hit record that you individually did a nice job of ignoring some of this noise when the dips happened. I didn’t do as good a job as you did. But you mentioned logging onto that 529 account for the kids and having that “gasp” moment, right?

Tim Baker: Yeah, I mean, I think people think that I’m like joking, but I’m not. Like when the correction came — or not the correction but just the dip because of the pandemic came last year, I did not look at my accounts. I think because I know the reaction. It wasn’t until, I don’t know, maybe like May or June of last year when it hadn’t completely recovered where I logged into the kids’ 529s. And I did get that — I looked at the balance and kind of dip and I was like, I got that like pit in my stomach and I was like, oh my goodness, it actually did fall quite a bit. But the reason for that is that I know that — and we’ll talk about this a little bit more — but you know, investing is such an emotional thing. And oftentimes, what you want to do in investment is the opposite, right? So like let’s go through that roller coaster. When the market declines like it did and you’re seeing, if you’re logging into your account — and I’m sure there’s a lot of people listening that look at their accounts daily — when you’re seeing hey, I had $100,000, now I have $80,000, now I have $65,000, that plays with your emotions, right? So in that moment, the feeling that you have is — and I kind of say you want to take your investment ball and go home. You’re like, ‘Alright, I don’t want to play this game anymore. It’s not fun. I’m going to go home.’ And what happens is that that relates to basically people selling off their investments low and getting into cash where it’s really cozy and safe. And then when it rebounds and it goes back up 60%, 70%, 80%, 90%, you miss that upswing. Right? So then you’re trying to figure out when to get back in. You’ve missed a lot of the returns. So more often than not, if you know your risk tolerance and you set your allocation, less is more. The less that you kind of fiddle with it and look at it, probably the better off you will be. And I know that’s not like an exciting answer, right, because the sizzle that typically is involved in a financial plan if there’s any sizzle at all, but if you’re a financial nerd like us, like it is the investments. They’re interesting. They’re somewhat exciting. You see your wealth compounding as a result of an efficient long-term investment strategy. But typically, the most efficient and I think successful are just really boring. They’re not individual stocks, they’re not cryptos, they’re not all these things that you hear about on the news that may or may not be a fad — I’m not saying crypto is a fad — but it is index funds and buying the market and things that are not necessarily exciting to someone that might be reading the Wall Street Journal every day or in terms of like what is the — what are the things that are making headlines, what’s going to print so people will read that? That’s just the reality of it.

Tim Ulbrich: So since we just proclaimed this as boring, we might as well just send the episode right there and call it a day. So now let’s jump into these five considerations for those that really are trying to reaffirm, Tim, I think much of what you just shared. No. 1 — and I mentioned this a little bit earlier — is recognizing while the circumstances of today’s market are unique, market volatility is not unique. And so what I’m referring to there is of course, we all have lived through firsthand a global pandemic, we know the supply chain issues that has caused, we know that obviously there’s some issues that we see currently happening around inflation and of course with the housing market and lumber prices that were up crazy and now they’re actually going down the other way. And so circumstances may be different, but the volatility and the concept of volatility is not unique. And I think, Tim, this feels relevant because for those that are investing, I would say within the first — I don’t know — 10-15 years of your career, if you have maybe known only this bull market, like this might seem or feel like behaviorally that some of this volatility is unique. So tell us about just historically, the precedence of volatility and why this concept is important.

Tim Baker: Yeah. So you know, the markets are very fickle. And it’s interesting to see that something that a president might tweet or a jobs report or whatever can really swing what is happening on Wall Street. So it can be influenced, I would say rather easily. I think that again, even more so because of the news cycle, but it’s really not a new thing. So I think the status is that since World War II, I think there’s been 12 or 13 economic recessions where you’re seeing these things do come in cycles. You know, it’s very rare to have the expansive bull market that we’ve had, meaning that we haven’t had a major correction. But along the way, it has gone up and gone down. And it’s evident by what happened early last year with a lot of the economy shutting down because of the pandemic. So the long-term investors should know that along that road, it shall be somewhat bumpy. But you know, the more that we zoom out, if we look at an investment portfolio over a month or two months or six months or even a year, very, very volatile. Lots of swings. But the more we zoom back and we go to five, we go to 10, we go to 20 years, it’s actually very predictable. And that’s the comfort that I have when I start to doubt myself is to know that over long periods of time, the market is very predictable. And it takes care of you. It allows us to outpace things like inflation and kind of get ahead of the tax man, so to speak. So that’s the comfort that I have. But — and I try not to get too caught up in the week-to-week, month-to-month, day-to-day stuff because I know, you know, as a human being, it can be — the volatility can be very emotional. And it can lead to things that causes us to do irrational things. So I’m cognizant of that, and that’s what I try to preach to clients. But again, it’s in that moment, you have those feelings and reaction that compels you to do things. And again, most of the things — all of the decisions that we make in life, Tim, are really based on an emotion. And if it’s an emotion like loss, we typically — and we talk about things like loss aversion — we typically do things at the detriment of our long-term plan.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. So that’s No. 1. No. 2 is understanding common biases. So Episode 124, I had the opportunity to interview Dr. Daniel Crosby, who wrote “The Behavioral Investor.” And in the book, he actually talked about 117 behavioral biases at the time — perhaps there’s more since he’s done more research and others — 117 behavioral biases in total that he has come across throughout his research. We’re not going to talk through obviously all of those on this show but some that we think are relevant to the time. We also talked about this in Chapter 1 of “Seven Figure Pharmacist,” where we talked about the concept of mind over money. And so Tim, the first one that comes to mind here is overconfidence. And tell us a little bit about what overconfidence bias is and ultimately what it may lead to so that we can be on the lookout for some strategies to prevent this.

Tim Baker: The overconfidence bias is a tendency for people to have just more confidence in their own abilities. So like one of the things I always think back on when I learned about this is that if you were to poll pharmacists out there and you would say, “Hey, how well do you think you’re doing your job?” the overwhelming majority of people would be like, “I’m great,” or “I’m average or a lot better.” But we know that like on a bell curve, you’re going to have people that are really outstanding, people that are average, and people that are kind of below expectations. But the way that we view ourselves is we never really — even though sometimes we are our hardest critic, we’re not saying that when we’re actually taking stock of our abilities. So I see this a lot in pharmacists. And sometimes I see this in pharmacists that we work with in a sense of we get through a portion of the financial plan, and it’s like, “Hey, I got this.” And I’m like, “Well, do you? Because three months ago or six months ago or 12 months ago, you said, ‘I have no idea what I’m doing with my money.’” And you know, I think it’s a good thing we’re making progress, but sometimes there is this feeling that ‘Hey, I’m good to go,’ or ‘I have it all figured out.’ And it’s untrue. It’s an inflation of our own ability to manage the portfolio, manage the taxes, or whatever that might be with regard to the area of life that we are looking at. To me, overconfidence can really come into play with how we react to our financial planner or where we’re placing money. Again, it could be to the detriment of the long-term direction of the financial plan.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think this is one, Tim, you know, I kind of put myself in the bucket of guilty as charged here. Like I was looking at one of my 401k statements recently and giving myself the pat on the back, right, of what’s happened over the last year. Like I literally have done nothing except like, you know, the hard work of a plan up front, obviously you played an integral part in that, but doing that and rebalancing — like that is the market doing its thing. And I think it can be in times like this where it has been significant growth — I graduated in 2008, so I started investing after the dip of the financial crisis of 2008. So it’s only been up in my career, for the most part, outside of —

Tim Baker: Only been up, yep.

Tim Ulbrich: Only been up. So you know, again, my comment about newer investors, like history I think is an important lesson to learn in terms of the trends but also that when we think about something like overconfidence, you know, is success in one area, does that necessarily translate to other areas or not? And how much of this is the market doing its thing versus undue credit we may give ourselves for making certain decisions.

Tim Baker: Yeah, and this might be something — you know, I’m just thinking about this now as we’re talking about this. You know, you often hear stories about people that grew up during the Great Depression. And there was almost like this underconfidence bias, right? Not necessarily just in maybe themselves or just even in the system, and maybe it’s the sign of the times, but I just wonder if there was the inverse of that. And sometimes you see that with like, with when people do come out in terms of the job market and things like that, they are more conservative in that part of life that was really kind of down-and-out. So it’s like, ‘Hey, I don’t really want to take this job for granted or do a move because it’s safe here because when I came out, I was $200,000 in debt and I couldn’t find a job.’ So you know, I think we — I do see a lot of overconfidence. And you want to be cognizant of it. Like what you were saying, Tim, is like, you know, you set your asset allocation, and that’s the right thing to do. But for the most part, the right thing to do is probably just to keep on keepin’ on and not overextend yourself or do things that I think will ultimately lead, again, to the detriment of the long term.

Tim Ulbrich: The next bias, Tim, that seems really timely right now is herd mentality/bandwagon effect/groupthink, whatever we want to call it. So tell us about this one, maybe some examples in the moment of what we’re seeing and obviously why this can have some negative impact.

Tim Baker: Yeah, this also can be called like mob mentality. So like this is the tendency of like the individual in a group to think or behave in ways that kind of conform with others in that group rather as individuals. And you know, probably I see this more in like things like AMC or GameStop or even crypto. It’s like, it is kind of like that water cooler talk of everyone’s doing it and we were kind of talking about this off-mic of, you know, I might not really be interested in that, Tim, but because I kind of want to be part of the conversation and part of what’s going on, maybe I do invest, right? And we were kind of — the analogy somewhat is fantasy football. Like if my pro football team stinks but I am in a fantasy football league and maybe there’s a little financial incentive there to win it, there’s some sizzle there, right? There’s some incentive for me to kind of be plugged in and pay attention. And I think sometimes that’s true. And I think it’s also because it’s like the new, like at least with crypto, it’s kind of the new thing and it’s not really understood. And I think there is like a lot of promise and upside, but it’s really speculation right now. I think the thing that I get a little frustrated with is that a lot of the people that I see that are investing in crypto don’t really have business investing in crypto. But it’s really easy with some of the apps that are out there and things like that that kind of drive that forward. And it’s exciting, right? We do things that excite us. We’re talking about, hey, keep it boring, don’t do anything that there’s a lot of juice behind it. It’s like ah, it’s so boring, Tim, like I don’t want to do that. I want to do something that I can get excited about. But oftentimes, those are more expensive to the investor and again, not necessarily the best thing from a fee perspective or just in the long run in terms of the swings in the market.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I mean, I think we just take a step back, Tim. Like opening xyz app and making an investment purchase, like there’s an endorphin rush that’s happening, right? Not looking at your account balance for three months, like you ain’t getting any endorphin rush from that. I mean, there’s just one that obviously tends to be a little bit more exciting, might attract us in that direction, and one that’s going to take some discipline behavior, perhaps a coach to kind of help keep us on track in that. And I want to be clear, as we talk about some of the current trends, we’re not saying in any way, shape, or form there’s not a place for cryptocurrency.

Tim Baker: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: I think you made a good point there in terms of like the priority of that or you and I have talked before about for folks that are interested in individual stock picking, we’re not saying nobody should ever think about that. I think what we’re suggesting is looking at the bigger picture, where does that fit? Are we putting the priorities in the right order? And then if we’ve got to scratch that itch, like OK, but let’s make sure we’re doing it within a reasonable way in the context of everything else we’re trying to achieve.

Tim Baker: And just know what you’re getting into. And for a lot of people, people don’t. And again, not investment advice, but we’ve talked about keeping it boring, low-cost, passive index funds. They’re about as boring as they can get. But for the most part, I think it’s kind of that building out a portfolio like that that buys the market, doesn’t try to make strides to beat the market. And you know, what we said about the market is that it takes — it does take care of you. If you can stick to your guns during those volatile markets, it’ll take care of you over the course of the long run. And some of these things that we talk about — and again, it’s not to say that these things don’t — some of these things don’t pan out.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Tim Baker: Sometimes they do. It’s like hey, if you would have bought Amazon at this — you know, you see those clickbait articles: This guy bought Amazon at $x per share and now he’s sitting on a beach somewhere. Like those things do happen. But for the most part, if you’re looking at — if you’re a novice investor and you’re looking at building a robust investment portfolio that is going to see you through to retirement or whatever your goal is, that’s typically the being greedy instead of successful portfolio.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, let’s talk briefly about loss aversion bias. Again, there’s many biases we could talk about. But I think these three in particular are really relevant right now. Talk to us through about what is loss aversion bias and what are some of the implications here.

Tim Baker: It’s a cognitive bias that kind of explains why individuals will act in a way that they avoid pain or they say that the emotions of pain are twice as impactful than the pleasure of a game. So the loss felt from money or an investment or in some type of valuable object or something like that can feel worse than gaining that same thing. So the example is that if you were to lose $20 reaching your hand in your pocket and pulling your keys out and that falls on the side of the road, you feel that a lot more than finding that $20 in your couch. Now, that’s pretty awesome if you find $20 in your couch, but to me — and the movie that I always think about, Tim, when I think about this bias is “Rounders.” And I think I’ve talked about this on the podcast before. But “Rounders” is about — Matt Damon’s character is an amateur poker player who’s studying I believe law. And he is trying to scrape together money to go to Vegas to kind of make a run at the World Series of poker. And his character describes I think early in the movie where it’s like, you don’t remember the huge pots that you rake or the huge hands that you win. What you really remember and what sticks to you are when you go bust and you really lose a terrible hand. And I even see this, even this week, Tim. And I found myself doing this is like, we’ll sign on two, three new clients, but the first thing that comes out of my mouth when the team congratulates me is like, “Well, we lost this one,” or, “This person didn’t show up to that meeting,” and I feel like I’m happy that we are growing YFP and people are coming on and working with us on their financial plan, but it’s almost this unconscious reaction of I feel that loss and I’m like, well what could I have done? What could I have done better? Or what could we have done to kind of win those too? So it is really a thing that drives us is that we will recall those negative losses and that will affect our behavior, and we overweight that more than any gains that we have. And I look at it in this market really from two sides. You know, you see people that look at the market, and they’re like, ‘Tim, this is kind of scary. It’s up and it’s down. It’s like super unpredictable.’ And I’m like yeah. And we look at the risk tolerance, and it’s super conservative. But you’re a 25-, 35-, even 45-year-old pharmacist. There’s a lot of time horizon there. Like there’s a lot of time before — and again, we’re talking about long-term investing for retirement. Over long periods of time, we should be somewhat aggressive because it’s just, again, you’re not going to remember what happened in 2021 when you go to retire in 2051. But we — because of the losses, that dictates our behavior. But the other thing too is from a loss aversion perspective, Tim, and I see this also where it’s like, ‘Hey, Tim, like how’s it going? Like financial plan looking good? A lot of people talking about crypto, a lot of people talking about this stock or that stock.’ Like it’s almost this FOMO, this Fear of Missing Out on this trend or this herd mentality that’s going on of excitement around these things. And this fear of missing out or this kind of the loss of missing out on this opportunity is driving people maybe to be more aggressive or more speculative, I would say, in investments they would not have otherwise thought about or even entertained. So I think it can play on both sides of the loss of if my portfolio does go down but also the loss of like a missed opportunity. And I think that, you know, I look at it, and I try to — I try to look at this with context, Tim. So like, you know, I hear a lot of people say like, “Ah, the country is going down the drain, blah, blah, blah.” And like I’m sure that they said during the hippie and free love movement. Right? Like it’s this bias that we have like right now, it’s — and maybe that goes into the recency bias — but like it’s this bias that we have that everything — and the same is true with things like crypto — is that like when the dot-com crisis was going on, people were insane in terms of what they were doing to take out second mortgages to buy — I always joke — cats.com or whatever or this.com or even in the subprime mortgage crisis where people were doing really aggressive and ill-advised things to buy real estate because the market was just so hot. And again, if you think about it from an emotional perspective, what you’re feeling, Tim, is probably the — what you should be doing is the opposite of what you’re feeling in a lot of ways. So to me, it’s just really interesting to see how these play out in real life. And it’s just, again, part of the value that I bring, even though I’m human and even though I feel a lot of the same things is that check. And you know, Paul has even said this, Paul Eichenberg who is our IRS-enrolled agent, leads the tax work, he’s like, you’re there to kind of be like the stopgap to my portfolio because there are things that he wants to do and he wants to tinker and I’m like that barrier, so to speak. So even people within the profession that are espousing this and talking about this with clients still have those biases or those emotions because we are human. And these are things that just are innate to us.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I would argue, Tim, just to drill that point home, sometimes the closer you are to it, the harder it is to keep your hands off of it.

Tim Baker: Yep.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, good stuff. No. 2, we could talk about biases certainly probably a whole separate episode and dig into that further. But the whole purpose of that as we think about these five considerations investing in a volatile market, this is all about knowing yourself. Right? So if we can understand the biases that we’re perhaps more tending towards or leaning towards, then we can start to think about some of the strategies to overcome those. No. 3, Tim, is understand your investing philosophy and goals. One of the things I think about often with investing, especially right now, is that we’re talking so much about the x’s and o’s, right, whether it be what stock am I investing in or what am I doing in terms of what account I’m putting money in? All important stuff. However, we might be doing that without taking that important step back to say, what’s the vision? Where are we going? What are we trying to achieve? What’s the purpose? And then from the vision, we start to derive, OK, what’s the plan in terms of how much we need? And then we start to think about the x’s and o’s, right? Where are we going to put the money? What accounts, asset allocations, all those types of things? So I think a time period like this where so much of the attention and noise is on the x’s and o’s, it takes some discipline to take a step back and think about the direction, the vision, where are we trying to go. So Tim, talk to us a little bit about the importance of this. And I’m thinking specifically from the planning perspective, how do we go about this in terms of working with clients to really make sure we’re defining that vision, that purpose, that why, for our investing side of the plan and then ultimately keeping that front and center as we make those decisions of how to execute?

Tim Baker: Oftentimes, this is something that’s like way overlooked, right? So with philosophy, a lot of people, they don’t necessarily know what their philosophy is or know enough to kind of verbalize what that is. But in terms of goals, I think people that do have goals, a lot of times what I find is that they’re very singular in nature or what I’m trying to say is like, ‘Hey, we’re just trying to pay off this credit card debt,’ ‘We’re just trying to get through the student loans,’ ‘We’re just trying to save $30,000 for our emergency fund,’ or, ‘We’re just trying to save 10-20% for a down payment on our house,’ or whatever that is. But — and it’s almost like when I think about fitness, it’s like the person that’s trying just to get like six-pack abs. Right? But we know that just like the financial plan and kind of like systems of the body, they’re all interconnected, right? So to me, I think those things are good. But I really want to look at when we’re talking about understanding where you’re at in the universe, at least financially, is what does the balance sheet look like? Because a lot of this stuff in investments — actually, we just signed on a client that were very really big into Dave Ramsey. And one of his big tenets is like, don’t invest even with a match, don’t invest until the debt is gone. And I’m paraphrasing here, but like, that’s what they were doing. And they recently just switched gears a bit because there was a pretty healthy match, and they wanted to get that going and they kind of stumbled upon the FIRE movement and x, y, z. So I think it’s really looking at that balance sheet because there are going to be some people — again, we see it. We see people that have massive amounts of credit card debt but they have a Robinhood account that’s investing in crypto. Like those things necessarily don’t compute. So I think it’s looking at, again, like what are the — we’re always talking about the baby steps. What does the emergency fund look like? What’s the consumer debt? Is there a plan for the other types of debt, whether it’s a mortgage or student loan? So really understanding where we’re at on the balance sheet, on the net worth statement, and then from there, you know, I think the big thing that people talk about a lot these days is like self-care. And I think sitting down — my wife and I, Shea and I, we did this last night. We went out, kind of an impromptu date night, got a babysitter, and it was just talking about where are we at and kind of where do we want to go and really kind of looking at, you know, the next couple years and what’s really driving us — and Tim, we’ve talked about this a bunch — is our daughter Olivia is 7 this year. And that means we have about seven or eight years before she no longer wants to hang out with Mom and Dad. So we’re cool. So like we really want to capitalize on those years. And that’s really what’s driving that emotion, that loss, is really what’s driving what we want to do today. And I think really taking that time to reflect yourself, reflect with your partner, I think it’s about as good as you can do from a self-care perspective. And unfortunately, because we’re so busy, we have all these screens in our face all the time, we don’t do that ourselves. And sometimes I even see this with clients just talking out loud or I just did this this week with a client that we reviewed their goals that they made 2.5 years ago, and they’re like, ‘Wow. We’ve done a lot of these things. There’s some things we’ve got to tweak, right, we’ve got to work on. But it’s amazing how well we’ve done, and yeah, and the numbers are looking good too.’ So I think once you get there and then we start diving into different pieces of the financial plan, a la investments, that’s when you’re really looking at what is your risk tolerance or what’s your risk capacity, how much risk can you take, what are the long-term goals, Tim? So for you, it’s maybe you want to retire at 50. Maybe you’re like, I just want to retire at 70. Maybe it’s I want to relocate. What are the things that are really driving you? And then I think that really sets things like the asset allocation — so the asset allocation is just how you divide up your portfolio into different percentages. And again, we’re going to be super boring with that. And then rebalance it over the course of time and then adjust it as you get closer to whatever that time horizon is. So it is a lot of moving pieces. Again, we haven’t really even talked about things like tax. But there’s a lot of things that we see that are not being fully fulfilled on the tax side — and Paul could probably come on here and he’s probably shared it — where it’s these are real dollars that we can save that we’re not realizing but we’re focused on speculating over here or doing that. And I get it because again, taxes are also super boring.

Tim Ulbrich: Boring.

Tim Baker: There’s no sizzle there, Tim. So yeah, so like but in terms of like real dollars and things like that, there’s a lot of things that are typically not uncovered or captured before we start doing some of these other things that, again, kind of catch all the headlines.

Tim Ulbrich: I know we’ve got some nerds out there listening because I’ve talked to them that got super excited when we started talking about tax strategy.

Tim Baker: Oh yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: But for the other 99% of the people, we lost them for a moment. Yeah, you know, Tim, I think what you’re saying here is a good reminder. You and I talked recently about why net worth matters. And we talked about the importance of the balance sheet, taking care of our future self, but it’s not just about that, right? And I think this is a good reminder that the balance sheet matters, right? But ultimately, like what’s the purpose? What’s the goal? Where are we trying to go? And I’m encouraging folks because I’m encouraging myself when I say in real time is that the balance sheet and what’s in your accounts and your net worth shouldn’t be the finish line and the measuring stick. Right? It’s an important thing that we’re going for, but ultimately, we’ve got to look at what else is of greatest priority and ultimately the concept that we talk about often, which is living a rich life along the way. Tim, No. 4, you know, you talked about the analogy of the financial plan being interconnected just like the body and the systems of the body. And I think that is a nice segue into No. 4, which is avoid investing in a silo. So you’ve said it many times, I believe it firmly as well, that investing is one, albeit an important one, one part of the financial plan. And so here we’re talking, again, in this time period of volatility, that we’ve got to take a step back. And you alluded to a couple things of the baby steps in terms of thinking about the emergency fund and paying off that high interest consumer debt, but give us that reminder, Tim, that investing is one part of the financial plan, an important one, but it’s just one part.

Tim Baker: I’ll say this caveat here, like I was going to say, the thing that’s capturing all the ink right now, it is the market. It’s the investments. And you’re not really seeing a lot of front page stories about life insurance or tax. I mean, you’re seeing a little bit more because like we’re looking at what does a Biden tax code look like versus what’s currently there in Trump and how is that going to affect everything? And I know we talk about the child tax credit, so that’s getting a little bit of press. Debt is getting a little bit of press, especially student loan debt, because of things like the PSLF shakeup and FedLoan servicing basically waving the white flag here. But for the most part, what you’re reading about are the markets. And you’re driven by the fact that you’re looking at your balances and you’re logging into your 401k and that’s affecting you. So again, it is a piece of the financial plan. But it is just that. And I will say that one of the big drivers of building wealth over long periods of time, over the course of a pharmacist’s career, is I look at it as really three main things. And there are other pieces of the financial plan. But it’s going to be the thing that really I think gets you to an inflection point where you really start to build wealth is that you have an efficient debt strategy, right? So I think the two big buckets for pharmacists are going to be student loans and your mortgage. You know, a lot of people are very willy-nilly, especially with the student loans — now we’re seeing a lot more people have a heightened degree of attention toward student loans, and I think we probably should take some credit for some of that, definitely the mindset and the knowledge of people that we talk to is completely different than when we started, when I started working with pharmacists years ago. So efficient debt payoff strategies, efficient investment strategies, and efficient tax strategies, which kind of overlay everything. And I think those are the big drivers that build wealth over time. So it is — those are ongoing things, but again, those things are not really worth anything, Tim, if your financial plan is not protected. So those are things like insurance and estate planning or if you don’t have the proper health insurance and you have a catastrophe or whatever that is. So these are all interconnected just like systems of the body that you are only as strong as your weakest link, to use a phrasing that people can relate to. So one client that I met with, they surpassed $1 million in net worth, but they still didn’t sign their — still didn’t get their life insurance stuff. It can be sometimes, ‘Oh, that’s not going to happen to me. I don’t need to worry about that.’ But that’s a big weakness of their financial plan. So investing is important. It’s not not important. It is part of the plan. And it is one of those things that’s going to drive your wealth-building over the course of your career. But you’ve got to make sure that all the other things line up and they’re kind of working in rhythm with driving your balance sheet forward, your net worth up, and allowing you to align the resources you have to execute to the goals — so these are the qualitative things, the things that are less about the 1s and 0s and more about what is a wealthy life to you, Tim? What is a wealthy life for Jess? And if you’re not doing those things, who cares? Like what’s the point? What’s the point of all of this stuff? What’s the point of paying down the debt or earning the salary or whatever? To me, it has to be this feeling of taking care of you today but then the future version of yourself. And for a lot of us because we’re not really introspective because of the busyness of life, we kind of fail to do that. And then we wake up 10 years later, and we’re like, ‘Oh. A lot of time went by, and I’m still exactly where I’m at with this goal that I want to achieve.’ So yeah, it’s definitely — it’s an integral part to the rest of the financial plan and important to recognize that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I bring this one forward, Tim, not to suppress the importance of investing but rather to elevate the importance of the others that I think may get overlooked out of the exciting aspects that come with investing. We see this firsthand, right? If we run a webinar at YFP on investing, bam! People are excited. If I run a webinar on like long-term disability and life insurance, like nobody is coming to listen to me talk about that or, you know, few people will be there. So you know, I think it’s just a good reminder that we look at the financial plan in a holistic manner. And that’s why we talk adamantly about the importance of comprehensive financial planning and making sure that we’re getting advice and input across the spectrum of the plan because at the end of the day, they are very much interconnected. Tim, No. 5 — and you’ve highlighted this a little bit already, and we’ve talked about it on the show before on Episode 073 — and that’s to re-evaluate the priority for investing. And you know, on that episode, Episode 073, we talked extensively about thinking of the different buckets, of course that’s not investment advice but just some general considerations around the priority of investing. And we’ll link to that in the show notes as we’ve got a really great visual that people can look at as a way to further educate themselves on this. But Tim, you mentioned tax-advantaged opportunities and seeing some of that in tax season as one example of this. But this time, again, I think is another example when we’re seeing ourselves perhaps because of something we’re hearing about or what other folks are doing is we’re losing sight of that priority of how we might be want to be investing the limited dollars that we do have to invest.

Tim Baker: Again, a lot of this is influence of even growing up, my mom was like, “Hey, there’s this new thing, a Roth IRA, we need to open those and get money into that.” You know, there’s these things that are kind of impressed upon us even growing up or not, or not impressed upon us at all. But I think it’s because, again, the ease of what is in people’s face in terms of like what they should be doing. But again, I think if you have kind of the basics in place with you can pay your bills, you have some 3-6 month reserve set aside in an emergency fund, the debt kind of is in check and is manageable, and there is a surplus for you to work with, that’s really when — or if not even before things like a 401k match or retirement plan match is really the first place that you look at because, again, you know, what we always say, it’s free money. So if you have a — if you make $100,000 and your employer matches 5%, and you’re not putting 5% to get that match, so to speak, if that’s the way it rolls out, then guess what? You just got a 5% raise essentially. That is typically step one is that if there is free money available in a match, you definitely should do that. From there, it gets a little bit more muddied because people — and even if you don’t have the match, it’s a little bit more money — from there, it’s things like an HSA if you have a high-deductible health plan that allows you to open up to an HSA, you know, you want to look at that because of the triple tax benefit that we’ve talked about in past episodes. It’s one of the big things that regardless of how much money you make, you can escape tax and allow that money to grow tax-free similar to an IRA, which is unheard of. You know, from there, you kind of have to do a little bit of digging and it depends on the strategy that you have with things like students loans and what your 401k might look like. But it might be to go back to the 401k, it might be look at things like IRAs, Roth IRAs, that type of thing. A lot of times, not all the time, money in a 401k can be more expensive, meaning there’s a lot of fees and things attached to those accounts that are very opaque or just not transparent to you. Not always the case, but a lot of times the smaller the employer, the more — you know, that’s a good rule of thumb — the more expensive it can be. So you kind of have to do a little bit of research, does it make sense for me to go back into the 401k and try to max that out to that $19,500? Or do I look at trying to max out an IRA, Roth IRA, which is $6,000? And then from there, we kind of talk about this in visual, like if you have access to a SEP IRA, a lot of people, especially a SEP IRA is typically for a small business or things like that. But that’s another avenue that you could potentially sock away some money for long-term investment that has a tax break. But then it’s things like a brokerage account where you can put as much money into there. A lot of people use brokerage accounts when they exhaust all of these accounts that we just mentioned or there is more of a near-term, so not necessarily a long-term, a near-term need. So my wife and I, we use a brokerage account that has a more conservative allocation because it’s just not as much time for like a car purchase, right? So we’re not being done any favors in the interest rates in terms of a saver, so right now it’s .5% in a high yield, so we’re trying to get a little bit more than that in a brokerage account, but that’s a slippery slope, right, because we don’t necessarily know how long we’re going to have that money invested, and the market could turn south tomorrow. But then I know some people get into real estate and other things, but the thing that we typically see here, Tim, when we talk about the priority is that these priorities aren’t necessarily what would be advisable when we actually look at the balance sheet and we actually talk about what the goals are for that particular — sometimes, they are out of order just because of curiosity or ease of use. “Hey, I can sit on the couch and see a commercial on Robinhood and open that and put money into crypto or this stock or that stock.” It’s just that’s how it is. And again, it’s more exciting than doing some of these boring things of like — it’s not exciting, Tim, to put money into an HSA. It’s just not. Even though us nerds are like, ah, triple tax benefit, it’s awesome. It’s not exciting. It just isn’t. I get it. But again, that’s why I think having a coach or an advocate to kind of help ask good questions and line up are these the things that are important to you and let’s line up the resources in a way that maximize or give you the most efficient outcomes? That’s what we’re trying to do.

Tim Ulbrich: So Tim, have you officially relabeled yet your brokerage accounts for the Swagger Wagon? Because it’s going to happen, the minivan, right? I mean…

Tim Baker: Oh, man.

Tim Ulbrich: If Shea’s listening, she’s like, “Heck no!”

Tim Baker: Yeah, well, she’s not listening. She’s not impressed with me at all. But no, it is not labeled. It needs to be. I’m on the wagon. I just don’t think she is yet. But maybe eventually.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff. So we talked about five considerations for investing in a volatile market. And you know, one of the themes I think of throughout this topic, Tim, is the obvious value that can come from accountability. You know, you mentioned in the form of coach, obviously we’re biased and firmly believe in the value of one-on-one comprehensive financial planning and coaching that we do with our team at YFP Planning. So for folks that have been thinking about that for some time and are listening and want to see if that’s a good fit for them and their financial goals and their plan going forward, you can book a free discovery call with us if you go to YFPPlanning.com, you can book that call right there. We’d be happy to talk with you further about our one-on-one planning service. As always, thank you for joining us on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. And we could use your help in getting other pharmacists to find this show as well. And you can do that by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to the show each week. Thanks for joining, as always, and have a great rest of your day.

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YFP 212: Checklist for Building a Strong Financial Foundation

Posted on July 15, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

Checklist for Building a Strong Financial Foundation

On this episode, sponsored by CommonBond, Tim Ulbrich shares his checklist for building a strong financial foundation.

Summary

Tim Ulbrich shares insight from one of his most popular talks for pharmacy students and recent pharmacy graduates, Preparing to Be Financially Fit. In this episode, he walks the listener through his checklist of five items and actions necessary for a solid financial foundation.

Develop and automate a monthly system: Not only is it a good idea to create a vision for success with tangible goals and a budget for each month, but it is also equally important to automate when possible to get out of your way when it comes to saving, investing, and planning.
Knock out the baby steps: Work to eliminate high-interest credit card debt and build your emergency fund.
Have a student loan repayment plan: Inventory your student loans and determine your starting point. Work on a strategy to pay loans down. Your repayment options may include tuition reimbursement or repayment, loan forgiveness, or refinancing.
Prepare for the catastrophic: This checklist item is referring to various types of insurance. Pharmacists should plan for potentially catastrophic events by ensuring that you are aptly insured both professionally and personally.
Develop a plan for long-term investing: Lastly, a long-term investing plan is key to your financial independence and freedom however that may look for YOU.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, everyone. Tim Ulbrich here, and I’m flying solo this week as we talk about a checklist for building a strong financial foundation. Now, we’re a little bit over the halfway point through the year, and perhaps if you were like me for this year, you set some big, audacious goals, hopefully some of those financial goals, at the beginning of this year in December or January. And here we are, and maybe those goals have fallen by the wayside or we’ve forgotten about them. And this is a great time of year to bring those goals back, dust them off, and see where we’re at and adjust and see what we need to make for the second half of the year. And that’s what we’re going to talk about today when we talk about a checklist for building a strong financial foundation. My hope is that whether you’re listening and you’re someone who’s got $300,000 in student loan and feel like you’re spinning your wheels with trying to figure that out among other goals or whether you’re listening and you’re someone who’s got a net worth of $1 million or more, my hope is that everyone can take at least one or two things away from this episode.

You know, it dawned on me that one of the most common talks that I give to a group of pharmacists or pharmacy students or residents is preparing to be financially fit. And in that talk, I talk about five things that I believe make up a strong financial foundation. And the way I describe that financial foundation is if we think about our financial plan as if we’re building a home, right, before we can talk about or even think about the upgrades or the remodel of the kitchen or finishing the basement or adding on that patio or deck or even upgrading our landscaping or lighting, we’ve better make sure we’ve got good foundation in place from which we can then grow and make some of those decisions. And the same is true with our financial plan. And so sometimes, we’ve got to go back to the basics no matter where we are at our financial journey and make sure that we’ve got a good, solid foundation in place, one that doesn’t have any cracks or if we identify cracks, we fill some of those cracks in so that we can build and walk confidently in our financial plan, knowing that we’ve done the hard work to put that foundation in place. And one of my key takeaways and hopes for this episode is that we can all recognize that building wealth, achieving financial independence, living a rich life, whatever we want to call it, is really dependent upon having a good, solid foundation in place. So I’m going to walk through five areas that I believe make up this foundation, a checklist for building that foundation and within each one of these, I’m going to provide some additional resources and more information that you can dig deeper on any one of these topics.

Alright, so let’s jump in. No. 1 is Developing and Automating a Monthly System. Developing and automating a monthly system. Now what I’m talking about here — and you probably figured this out — what I’m talking about here is a budget, right, is a system, is a playbook that we can follow each and every month. And then we automate that system and really get ourselves out of the way so we can ensure we achieve our goals. I often don’t lead with the term “budgeting” because it’s not flashy, it’s not exciting, but it’s so foundational to the financial plan, no matter what budgeting method or process that you use.

So in this first step of developing an automated monthly system, you know, a few things that we need to think about. No. 1 is we’ve got to have a vision. We have to know where we want to go before we can take some steps forward. So before we get into the weeds of what budget system or template or method or tool or app, we’ve got to know where we’re going, right? We’ve got to take a look up and see what’s the vision? What’s the path? What’s the guiding light for our financial plan and the decisions that we’re going to make and ultimately the goals that we want to achieve? And we do this by asking ourselves some big, yet important questions, questions like what does financial success look like for you? For you individually, what does financial success look like? How would you define that? You know, why do you care about this topic of money to begin with, right? Money is simply a tool. So why don’t we care about this topic of money. Or perhaps another question may be one that I ask to many folks. You know, if you were to fast forward 25 years and look backwards, what would need to happen that you would think to yourself, you know what, well done, really good job with that whole topic of personal finances? You know, we believe at YFP Planning that really good financial plan takes care of your future self but allows you to live a rich life today, right? We’ve got to have this balance of the future, we’ve got to be looking ahead. But we also need to be prioritizing the things that are most important to us today. So when we’re talking about developing an automated monthly system, we’ve got to first start with the vision.

You know, next from that vision, we’ve got to set some tangible goals, right? So we’ve got to come away from the clouds, come down from the clouds and that dream and vision we have, and let’s set some tangible goals. You know, what are three or four things that we want to achieve over the next 6 or 12 months such that if we achieve those, we’re on the path towards achieving our long-term vision. So we’ve got to set some tangible goals and the more specific, the better.

Then we’ve got to track our spending, right? We’ve got to look backwards and say, ‘OK, I’ve got this vision. I’ve got these goals. Am I actually spending in a way that’s going to allow me to achieve these goals?’ I always encourage folks to do a 90-day lookback at their spending. This can be humbling. This can be eye-opening at times. Often, we may underestimate our true expenses in any given category. And perhaps for some of you, that’s not the case. But this is a good snapshot, 90 days. We’re not necessarily just looking at one month, which may be an outlier for any reason, but getting a good average over a 90-day period of how we’re spending in any individual category of the budget.

Then once we’ve set the vision, once we have some tangible goals, once we’ve looked back at our spending, now let’s jump into the budget, right? And a good budget I believe is one that we’re really proactively thinking about how we’re going to direct our dollars and how they’re going to be spent and allocated toward the goals we want to achieve. It’s that proactive intention in addition to then tracking the expenses throughout the month. And then finally, we want to implement a system that can automate the process. You know, one of my favorite interviews on the YFP podcast was when I interviewed Dr. Daniel Crosby, who’s the author of “The Behavioral Investor.” And he studies how we think and behave around this whole topic of personal finance. And one of the things he said, which really resonates with me and his research supports, is that we often individually, ourselves and the decisions we make are often some of the biggest barriers that we put in front of our financial plan and achieving the goals that we want to achieve. And so automation, Ramit Sethi does a great job of talking about this in his book, “I Will Teach You to Be Rich.” Ramit Sethi talks about how automation can be one of the most powerful and profitable systems that you can build when it comes to your financial plan, right? So once we’ve done the hard work of setting the vision and we have some tangible goals and we know and can track our spending and we’re then able to set the budget, let’s put on automation, let’s fund our goals first, and let’s feel confident in knowing that we’ve developed a system that’s going to help accelerate our financial plan.

So that’s Step No. 1 here is Developing and Automating a Monthly System as we work towards this checklist for a strong financial foundation. Some resources here I would point you to is we’ve got an Excel budget template at YFP that we’ve developed. Certainly not the only way to do budgeting. At the end of the day, a good budget is one that works for you. But if you’re looking for a place to get started or perhaps to take a new, fresh look at the budgeting system you have, you can go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/budget and download that Excel template. Another resource here I would point you to is Episode 057 of the podcast. We talked about the power of automation in your financial plan. And so that may be another one to visit if you want to learn more about that concept of automation and how to implement that in your own system. So that’s Step No. 1, Developing and Automating Your Monthly System.

Step No. 2 is Knocking Out the Baby Steps. Now, if we think about the foundation as five physical bricks that’s making up a foundation, these five things that we’re talking about, I tend to think of this one, No. 2, Knocking Out the Baby Steps, as if it’s really the foundation of the foundation, if you will. Brick No. 1, right? And so we’re talking about the things here that for some of you that are listening, if you’re thinking, Tim, I just feel overwhelmed with multiple goals that I’m trying to achieve, I don’t know where to start. Perhaps I’ve got six figures of student loan debt. You know, I’ve got decisions that I need to make around some credit card debt. And I want to build an emergency fund or grow my emergency fund. I’m trying to purchase a home or I’ve got expenses for the family. I really want to accelerate my investing plan, and I just don’t know where to start and how to prioritize this. Knocking out the baby steps, this Step No. 2, is really meant to be the first step from which you then build even further. And the two things I’m talking about here are high interest rate credit card debt and emergency fund. So these are the two baby steps that we need to think about as we walk into our financial plan. Now I think these are fairly obvious, two things we’ve talked about on the show before, high interest rate credit card debt, we’re talking about here not any credit card expenses or bills that you pay off each and every month but rather that revolving credit card debt that’s accruing double digit interest, cards that are accruing 15-25% interest. And for obvious reasons related to that interest rate and the impact that that can have on the rest of your financial plan, we’ve got to knock that credit card debt out, that high interest rate consumer debt out as soon as possible. So think of this as really the piece where we need to stop the bleeding, right? We need to stop the bleeding before we can then begin to take some of these other steps forward.

The second part here of the baby steps is the emergency fund. We’ve talked about this before on the show, Episode 026, we actually talked about both of these things of baby stepping into your financial plan. And emergency fund, you know, some general rules of thumb that I think about are 3-6 months worth of expenses, 3-6 months worth of expenses. There’s some determination and of course decision-making in there. Is it 3 months? Is it 6 months? Is it somewhere in between? And that depends on several factors. We’re looking here, in my opinion, at an emergency fund as a place where we’re not necessarily very excited about the growth or the interest or the accrual of that account. This is the place where we want this account to be liquid and accessible, where we can get to this money when an emergency happens without disrupting the rest of our financial plan. So we’re going to be doing our investing elsewhere in the financial plan, right? So we want this to be liquid, we want it to be accessible, perhaps it’s going to earn a little bit of interest, nothing too exciting in the moment based on what rates are at on things like long-term savings accounts and money market accounts and so forth. But the purpose here is really more about the liquidity and the accessibility of this fund. So that’s Step No. 2 here, Knocking Out the Baby Steps, high interest rate credit card debt and the emergency fund.

No. 3, Having a Student Loan Repayment Plan. Now, notice I did not say being debt-free. Right? For some of you, perhaps that is the case. Maybe there’s an aggressive debt repayment. But for others of you, it may be loan forgiveness. And that might be 10-year Public Service Loan Forgiveness. That might be a longer time period of non-Public Service Loan Forgiveness or 20-25 years. This might be a federal plan that’s going to take a little bit longer or, again, could be an aggressive payoff. So it’s about having a plan. You know, so many folks that I talk to — and I felt this very much in my own journey, sometimes it’s about the intentionality of knowing that you’ve evaluated the options that are available to you — here, we’re talking about student loans — that you’ve weighed those options, you’ve considered those in the context of the rest of your financial plan and your goals, and you’ve made a decision and determined a path forward and have a plan for how and when this debt is going to get paid off, whether that debt getting paid off is 10 years from now, whether it’s two years from now, or whether it’s even longer or shorter than either of those. So this group listening knows very well, whether it’s those that are in the weeds of those or just been aware of the conversation around student loan debt and pharmacy education, but we’re facing a significant challenge right now. Today’s graduate is the median indebtedness of a pharmacy graduate right now is $175,000. Ten years ago, that was $100,000. We’ve seen a $75,000 increase in the median indebtedness of a pharmacy graduate over a 10-year period. That is what it is. Right? And if you actually look at that stacked up against what a pharmacist is making as reported by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, you know, pharmacists’ income generally speaking have been relatively flat, right? We’ve seen some rise that you could argue accounts for some cost-of-living adjustments. But really, outside of that, we’re not seeing a significant bump up that would account for anywhere near what we’re seeing in terms of the rise of student loan debt.

And so we’ve got some work to do to put this plan together. And Step No. 1 is we’ve got to inventory our loans. We have to know exactly where we are at today. And I suspect many of you have already done this. This is knowing a list of my federal loans, a list of my private loans if applicable, who’s the loan servicing company, what’s the type of loan, what’s the interest rate on that loan? We’ve got to know everything about these loans so we can then determine what might make the most sense from a repayment option and strategy. And the reason why the inventory is so important is that often the loan type is going to direct, especially as we talk about federal options, is going to direct which repayment options may be available to you. And so sometimes — great example would be Public Service Loan Forgiveness — sometimes there’s some work that we have to do to consolidate those loans to then open up repayment options that allow us to pursue certain paths such as Public Service Loan Forgiveness.

So there are three main buckets — when we talk about student loan repayment, there are three main buckets that we want to be thinking about. And I encourage you to think about them in this order. No. 1 is tuition reimbursement repayment. No. 2 is forgiveness. And No. 3 is just paying them off. And that could be paying them off either staying in the federal system or paying them off by moving those loans with a private company through the process known as refinancing. So when we think about these three options, if I had to go from those that would have the least number of listeners probably pursuing it, it would be probably tuition reimbursement payment, a little bit more would be forgiveness, and probably more would be that third bucket where you’re going to pay them off either through a refinance or through staying in the federal system. That first bucket, tuition reimbursement repayment, is referring to those pharmacists who enter employment situations where typically in exchange for some type of service — so think like military pharmacist types of positions, Indian Health Service and so forth, some VA locations through the Education Debt Reduction program — typically in exchange for some type of service, you’re going to have a portion or maybe in some cases all of your student loan balance that might be forgiven. And more often, we think here of federal programs. There are some situations where there are state-based programs. So for example, here in Ohio, there was a program for a period of time for pharmacists that were working in qualified healthcare clinics that were serving patients that were adversely impacted by the opioid epidemic, so think of pharmacists that might work in like federally qualified health centers, could be charitable pharmacy organizations and so forth. More often than not, though, we’re thinking here about federal programs. But it is worth looking into anything that might apply on the state level. So that’s the first bucket. The second bucket is forgiveness. Now within forgiveness on the federal level, there’s two options: one that is better known, Public Service Loan Forgiveness. We’ve talked about extensively on this show. It’s gotten a lot of national attention, some good, some bad, more bad. But I think that probably hasn’t been necessarily fair to that plan. And then the second option, which is not as well-known, is what we call non-Public Service Loan Forgiveness. And there’s some key differences, three things that I really think about differentiating PSLF and non-PSLF. No. 1 would be who you work for. So with Public Service Loan Forgiveness, you have to work for a qualified employer. Typically this is going to be a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization for most pharmacists. Some also would be a federal agency or organization. So think of pharmacists that are working in a hospital or health system setting, perhaps an academic environment and so forth. So that’s the first main difference between the two is who you work for. So PSLF, you have to work for a qualifying employer. Non-PSLF, it doesn’t matter who you work for. Second thing would be the time period. So with PSLF, it’s 120 payments, does not have to be consecutive, but 120 qualifying payments until you can apply for and receive tax-free forgiveness. So minimum of a 10-year period. With non-PSLF, you’re looking at a 20-25 year timeline. Third main difference is related to the taxes and the forgiveness. So with PSLF, if we cross our t’s and dot our i’s, that’s tax-free forgiveness. And with non-PSLF, it is taxable forgiveness. So let’s say 20 years from now, you go to — you’re at the point of forgiveness for the non-PSLF option with an income-driven repayment plan. Let’s say you make $100,000 in that year and you’ve got $100,000 that’s to be forgiven. And that year, your income would be taxed — or you’d have a taxable amount that would be $200,000, not $100,000 because that $100,000 that’s to be forgiven would be treated as taxable income. So this is referred to in the student loan groups as the tax bomb, right? So something we’ve got to be thinking about, we’ve got to plan for if we’re going to be pursuing this option. To many pharmacists that don’t qualify for PSLF and especially those that have a higher debt load, this is something that may be a viable option. And then the third bucket, as I mentioned, is we’re just going to pay them off. So we’re not going to have someone else reimburse/repay, we’re not going to have forgiveness, we’re just going to pay them off, either in the federal system or moving with a private lender through refinance. Now lots of logistics to think about here if you do refinance, different terms, different rate considerations, companies have differences between them. We’ve got lots of resources available on this at YourFinancialPharmacist.com on refinancing, fixed v. variable rates and so forth. And then not all the benefits and considerations are the same in the federal system as they are in the private. So things like income-driven repayment plan, forbearances, forgiveness upon death or disability, these are things that you want to be thinking about if you’re going to move your loans from the federal into the private system.

So I’m just scratching the surface here as we work through this checklist of a strong financial foundation and we talk about having a student loan repayment plan here in No. 3. I would point you to a great resource that was written by Tim Church, “The Ultimate Guide for Pharmacy Student Loan Repayment,” where it’s a blog post, really more of a mini e-book. He did an awesome job of going through a comprehensive, in-depth look at student loan repayment. And you can access that for free at YourFinancialPharmacist.com/ultimate.

OK, so that’s No. 3, Having a Student Loan Repayment. No. 4 is we have to Prepare for the Catastrophic, perhaps the least exciting part of the plan to be thinking about. So here, we’re talking about insurance, right? And while there’s many types of insurance that we want to be thinking about, of course health, auto, home, renter’s, etc., the ones I’m mainly spending time here on in No. 4 is professional liability, term life, and long-term disability. Now we’ve talked about these on the show before, Episode 155 we talked about the importance of professional liability insurance, what it is, why it’s important, who needs it, what to look for when shopping for a policy. So I’d check that out. We also have a great resource on term life and long-term disability. If you go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com main page and click on “Insurance,” you’ll see that information there. And my encouragement for you in this section as we talk about insurance briefly is please take the time to really understand these policies, as non-exciting as it may be, these are incredibly important. And I think this is an area where it’s easy to either be under- or over-insured. And both of those are things that we want to try to avoid. Right? Of course, under-insured, if we have a need for something like term life insurance or long-term disability and we don’t have that policy, that could perhaps be catastrophic to the financial plan, especially as we’re doing the hard work in the other areas that we’ve already talked about. But the other side of the equation also has a cost associated with it, right? If we have a policy which perhaps is more than we need or is not a best fit for our current needs in our financial plan, then that means those are dollars that are going towards a certain part of the financial plan that perhaps we could allocate elsewhere, whether that be investing or debt repayment or another part of the financial plan. So both are important. And this is an area I talk with pharmacists commonly about. And this is an area where I think that someone like a fee-only financial planner can really help provide objective advice and really be able to point someone in the right direction where they don’t necessarily have a vested interest in terms of how those policies are being sold. So make sure to check out some of the resources here on professional liability, Episode 155, and then term life/long-term disability by going to YourFinancialPharmacist.com, clicking on “Insurance.”

No. 5 here is Developing a Plan for Long-Term Investing. And we have talked extensively on the show about investing, from some of the basics, you know, in terms of what are the different accounts, whether that’s a 401k, a 403b, a Roth IRA, a traditional IRA, HSAs and so forth, and you can find all of that on previous shows. We’ve got more information on the website. We’ve also talked about things like the priority of investing. So you know, if we know we need to save each and every month, well, how do we begin to think about the priority? Right? We’ve got considerations around employer-sponsored retirement accounts, individual accounts, perhaps some other investment opportunities like real estate. And so how do we begin to think about the priority of investing? Very important topic. We’ve also talked about things like fees and how do we keep fees low? And if at the end of the day we’re going to be doing the hard work to save, how do we make sure we’re doing that in a way that is tax-efficient and we’re doing that in a way that is minimizing the fees that might eat away at that investment. So I would encourage you to think about at least the beginnings — remember, we’re talking about the foundation here — the beginnings of your long-term investing plan in three stages. And that is setting the vision, Part 1, then determining what the need is or how much to achieve that vision, that’s Part 2, and then we get into the x’s and o’s in Part 3 of actually determining how much are we going to save every month and where are we going to allocate those funds? And within those funds, how are we going to determine what we’re investing in, which aligns with our goals, which aligns with our risk tolerance and all of the other things that I’ve previously mentioned.

And so this is an area that I think for folks that are really at the beginning of their financial journey or even folks that maybe are listening and you’ve amassed a half a million a million dollars of wealth just through consistent, regular contributions into tax-advantaged retirement accounts but necessarily haven’t dug into the details or thought about how to take that to the next level, right? Both of those could apply. And so my encouragement for both groups and folks that are in between there is to really take a step back and ask yourself, what is the vision for my long-term investing plan? I mentioned at the beginning, money is simply a tool. What’s my vision for retirement? What does that look like? What do I want to do? What do I want to accomplish? Because that’s going to then inform how much do I need? Once I know what the vision, once I know what I want to accomplish, I can then start to determine OK, how much am I going to need to be able to make that a reality? Now, for those of you that have done this step, how much you need, you might have run some numbers in a nest egg calculator, it’s a topic that I often talk about when we’re speaking and sometimes I’ll even have folks that will go through that in real time. And inevitably, anytime we go through a nest egg calculation, you can see kind of that glossed-over look when you punch in the numbers and you hit “Calculate,” and you see that number that’s $3, $4, $5, $6 million. And it becomes number one, very overwhelming and number two, it feels very abstract in the moment. Whether retirement is 20 years away, 10 years away or 40 years away, that can be a big number that it’s hard to say, what does that actually means today? What do I do with that number, right? And so I think a good financial plan will really take that information and distill it down to OK, let’s discount that information back to today’s numbers, what does that mean for how much we need to be saving each and every month, and then let’s begin to put a plan in place and automate that plan so we’re contributing in a tax-efficient manner, we’re keeping the fees low, and we’re allowing compound interest to do its magic and time value of money to take its course. Right? And so we’ve got to bring it into terms that allow us to digest this and make it real or otherwise we’re going to get some of that paralysis analysis, five years goes by, 10 years go by, and we feel like we’re trying to play catch-up on our investing plan.

So as we walk through these five steps, we talked about developing and automating a monthly system, No. 1. We talked about knocking out the baby steps, No. 2. We talked about having a student loan repayment plan, No. 3. Preparing for the catastrophic, No. 4. And then No. 5, developing or perhaps accelerating your long-term investing plan. And for those that are listening, I want you to imagine for a moment, I want you to imagine for a moment that you’ve got a sound monthly system in place that accounts for all of your goals. You’ve thought through the things that are most important to you. You’ve looked at your current expenses. You’ve built in those goals into a monthly system, and you’ve automated the savings to begin to realize those goals. Imagine that just for a moment. I want you to imagine for those that are struggling with ‘I need to really flesh out and build out the emergency fund,’ or ‘I need to knock out that credit card debt,’ what would it feel like if you no longer had any credit card debt? What would it feel like if you had a fully-funded emergency fund? What’s next after that? For those that are thinking about their student loans, right, it’s hard to often look at other things when you’ve got a huge balance of student loans. As I highlighted earlier, yeah, you know, getting that to $0 is a goal, of course. But what would it feel like if you had a plan, knowing that you’ve evaluated all of the options, all of the federal options, forgiveness, non-forgiveness, private, etc., you’ve looked at the numbers, you’ve thought about the other considerations, you’ve determined a path forward that is best for you personal situation, and you’ve determined a plan that now allows you to look at your monthly expenses knowing that you’ve put a plan in place that that repayment option is best for your personal situation and you know exactly what that’s going to cost each and every month to achieve that goal and when you’re going to have that debt paid off? What would it feel like for those that are thinking, you know, ‘Am I underinsured when it comes to things like long-term disability or term life?’ or perhaps folks that are feeling like, ‘You know what, I bought a policy awhile ago that maybe wasn’t a good fit.’ What would it feel like if that got shored up? If we really looked at making sure we’ve got the right amount of insurance, not too much and not too little. And what would it feel like if we had a sound vision for the future of our financial plan in terms of what retirement may look like? And how much we would need to accomplish that goal and what it would take on a month-by-month basis — and of all of the financial lingo of 401k’s and IRAs and HSAs and brokerage accounts and all of these other options that we had a plan and path forward, knowing that we’re saving x per month with this goal, and we’re going to do it in this account with this strategy?

So I think as we think about those, even as I’m reflecting on those in my own personal journey, you know, there’s always work to be done. Right? Whether, as I mentioned at the beginning, whether you’re listening and have a net worth of $1 million or net worth of -$500,000, there’s always work to be done. And while there’s always work to be done, wow, what a different position and mindset to be in when we can operate from a place knowing that we’ve got a strong foundation upon which we can build the rest of our financial plan. And so I’d be remiss here if I didn’t highlight that what we do at YFP Planning, one-on-one comprehensive financial planning, this is it, right? We’re looking at every situation on an individual basis to determine what does this foundation look like for you or for a pharmacist who’s really trying to focus on accelerating the second half of their career, is approaching retirement and wants to really think about more of the distribution phase and what’s involved in that from a tax standpoint. One-on-one financial planning allows us to really dig deep and really evaluate your situation on an individual basis. And so I would encourage folks if that’s something that you’ve been thinking about, you can schedule a free discovery call to determine whether or not what we offer is a good fit for you. You can do that at YFPPlanning.com, you can schedule a discovery call and learn more about what that looks like.

As always, I appreciate you joining for this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. And I think we have an exciting second half of the year ahead. If you’ve liked what you heard on this episode or previous episodes, please do us a favor and leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts each and every week. That’s how more pharmacy professionals can help them to find this show and ultimately help us on our mission of helping as many pharmacists as possible achieve financial freedom. Have a great rest of your day.

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YFP 210: Why Net Worth Matters

Posted on July 1, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

Why Net Worth Matters

On this episode, sponsored by APhA, Tim Baker discusses why net worth matters, how to calculate your net worth, and why net worth, not income, is the true indicator of your financial health.

Summary

Net worth can be the most critical data point for determining your financial health. Tim Baker explains how to calculate your net worth, detailing that it can be as simple as the value of your assets minus your liabilities. Tim shares that many people do not know their net worth because few tools available to the general public can quickly aggregate that information. Years ago, you would take out a pen and paper and compare assets to liabilities. Now, you might do that same work in a spreadsheet, but the document wouldn’t be a living document like your net worth truly is. Tim also details which items to include in asset and liability columns and why certain accounts or property might remain off the balance sheet.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker, good to have you back on the show.

Tim Baker: Hey, Tim. Good to be back. Glad to chat with you for a full episode here. Excited to dive into today’s topic.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, really excited to talk about net worth in detail, a concept, a term we’ve mentioned many times but I don’t think we have thoroughly explained, really dug into how is net worth calculated? Why is it so important to the financial plan? And why do we choose to use net worth as one factor in terms of how we price our financial planning services? And so we’re going to talk about all of that and much more on today’s episode. I want to start briefly and mention to our listeners that net worth for me individually is something that is really important when I think back to my own personal journey and financial plan. So 2012 — short story here — 2012, four years after I graduated with my PharmD, my wife Jess making a good, decent, six-figure pharmacist income, and realized at the moment after hearing about this term of net worth, realized that I had a net worth that was -$225,000. And we’re going to talk in a little bit about how to calculate that. But that was a very pivotal moment for Jess and I and our financial plan to say, wait a minute. Income looks good, we don’t feel like things are necessarily off the rails in any way, but mathematically, the net worth is not necessarily showing that we’re in good financial health and good financial position. And so that was a key moment for us to really turn the ship in terms of our financial plan and ultimately led us to paying off the rest of our balance of a pretty big amount of student loan debt and then obviously able to move on to other financial goals from there. So Tim, for you, when did you realize that net worth was not only important to you individually but also really such a primary factor that you built it into the financial planning model that in terms of how we charge clients, that one factor of that is net worth.

Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s a great question, Tim. And I think like you talk about your personal story, like same. Like I’ve gone through phases of my life, I look back even growing up and when I was in high school I was really a good saver. You know, we were kind of told that we had to pay for college and if we wanted to drive and all that kind of stuff that we were kind of on our own. So I kind of went through this period of being like a really good saver. And then when I was at West Point, my first year at the academy, you know, 9/11 happened and our view of the world drastically changed. And I think my spending kind of changed with it. I was kind of more of like a YOLO, not necessarily worried about tomorrow but really focused on today. And from a spending perspective, that didn’t really help me, my balance sheet. So I’ve definitely gone through times in my life where my net worth was not growing. And I don’t know that for a fact, but I just know that some of the debt that I was taking on and that my savings was not growing, that was the case. And I think part of the problem or part of the reason that a lot of people when they hear “net worth,” they’re like, “I don’t even know what mine is,” because there’s not really an app for that, so to speak, where it ties everything together. So we know that hey, we can kind of see what our credit card bills are, and we can kind of see what’s in our checking account and we might look at our 401k from time to time and our home value and what’s left on the mortgage, but really to tie that together, it takes a bit of work to do that. But then I kind of evolved and got into financial planning and really my mindset around money has really changed and really even has changed even more so so I’m less — you know, I kind of went from YOLO to being a financial planner and kind of believing a lot of the things that a lot of the gurus in save, save, save. But I think I’ve also softened on that a little bit in terms of like having a strong financial plan is important and making sure that the numbers are moving in the right direction, the 1s and 0s with regard to your net worth. But that ain’t the end-all, be-all, Tim. And I know we talk about this obviously a lot. It really is an exercise in trying to thread the needle between again, taking care of yourself today, so YOLO, but also making sure that we can retire comfortably and we want to plan for tomorrow. So in terms of planning, you know, when I started Script Financial way back in the day before YFP Planning and our work together, you know, I was looking at what a lot of financial planners were doing, and I came across this income and net worth model. And the more I thought about it, I’m like — and this is as I was trying to, even before I launched my firm that was really dedicated to helping pharmacists with their financial plan — I was like, I really like that because it’s kind of — it captures everything. Like everything financially typically touches the balance sheet, right? So you know, so if you’re thinking of like, what is net worth? Net worth is really, it equals your assets, the things that you own, so think checking, savings, investment accounts, the value of your home, minus your liabilities, which are the things that you owe, so student loan debt, credit cards, the mortgage left on your house, the loan to your crazy uncle Steve for whatever, like those are the things that are the subtractors. And that’s your net worth. And for a lot of pharmacists, especially starting out, that can be super negative. So we’ve had clients that have come on that their net worth is almost -$1 million, but then we also work with clients that are multimillionaires. So to me, it made sense to really focus on the net worth because we can’t control everything about the financial plan, but there are a lot of things that we can control, and I think the net worth kind of encapsulates a lot. And I think it’s the biggest, it’s the best number to focus on as you’re trying to view progress and improvement with regard to the financial plan over time.

Tim Ulbrich: So Tim, as you mentioned, simple calculation, right? Net worth is assets, what you own, minus liabilities, what you owe. Some common questions I think that I know I’ve gotten and I’ve thought myself when people actually start to put pen to paper here are, you know, what assets might I include or not include? I know there’s some thought about like depreciating assets such as a car. Is that something I should include as an asset or not? And then on the liabilities side, things like revolving credit card debt or obviously that could be ongoing with interest accruing but things that pay off each month or those types of things. So when you’re actually getting in the weeds on assets minus liabilities, is this worth really starting to get into ah, is this truly an asset or is this not an asset? This has this tax and so forth. How do you think about what actually falls into these or does not fall into these buckets?

Tim Baker: Yeah, I mean, it goes back to that whole idea of like garbage-in, garbage-out, right, Tim? So the better the data is, the more accurate and the more empowered you can potentially be to make good decisions. Something like a 401k and the value of your home, that’s a no-brainer because for most people, that’s typically the largest assets that is on the balance sheet.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Tim Baker: The home is going to be a little bit of a moving target because, you know, you look at the Zestimate, you might say, “No way that I can get that for my house,” although, right now everything is en fuego. A home — and yeah, something like that, what people will pay for is, that’s the value. So that can be a little bit of a moving target, but I think it’s worth tracking over time. The question about a car, you know, like when we talk about that, we typically don’t include that because in most cases, the value of the car depreciates as the note does in a lot of ways. Now if you buy a car cash, then maybe that’s a different story. But things like a credit card, yeah, I mean, if you have a balance that you’re carrying, I would definitely include that. If you don’t, maybe not, if that’s your behavior. But I think like — so back in the olden days, Tim, this would be like a pen and a notepad, right? So you would put all of your liabilities on the left side, big line down the center, put all your assets, add those up, and then basically what’s the difference, and that’s your net worth. Now, you know, either with Excel or something like that, you can do it a little bit — that’s still manual because you still have to look at these balances. But there are lots of tools out there that you can actually aggregate all of the different financial institutions that you’re using. So for our tool, basically when a client comes on board, once they become a client, the first thing that they do is we send them a welcome email and they get links to their client portal, and they link their checking, their savings, their credit cards, their student loans, their mortgage, basically all of their financial accounts. And for a lot of people, Tim, if you think about it, it’s the first time they’ve seen all of their stuff in one spot. So like how can we plan for things if we don’t really know what we have or we know kind of in the abstract of what we have. But then especially for couples, right?

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Tim Baker: It’s the first time that they see all of their stuff in one spot. So you know, and that’s because we bank over here, we invest over here, our student loans are over here, so to have that on one platform, that is so powerful just to see like where the heck are you? Where are we at? Which is a big component of — it’s half of the equation of when I say, “It depends,” that’s one of the big components is like, where are we at, so that we can advise you on where we want to go. I think the net worth, again, and what you include in that, by and large, you want checking and savings, your cash accounts, investments, the value of your house, student loans, credit cards that you’re carrying, personal debt, mortgage, etc. Some of the other stuff might be if you have like fine art or things like that, you can include that all in there. But you know, depending on how big that is in your portfolio, I know there’s some people that their business is one of their biggest assets that they would account for on their net worth or maybe a cash value life insurance. So it’s going to depend, but I would say don’t get lost in that minutia. I think the act of just going through it and doing it and just seeing — it’s just like budgeting, right? — just seeing what works, what doesn’t work. If you don’t think that tracking x number is important, then don’t do it. So that’s my thought.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, no fine art in this house, Tim, with four boys. So that would get trashed for sure.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: You know, I was just logging on, we use, as you alluded to, we use a tool for our planning clients called eMoney. And one of the things I love about that is, you know, I just logged onto my account, front and center is net worth. Right?

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: And you know, we talk about in the book “Seven Figure Pharmacist” that net worth is really your financial vitals check. It’s a great indicator of your financial health. And I find this helpful because there’s times — and it can be days, sometimes it’s within a month — where you’re like, man, things are going really well or the opposite, I feel like things are falling off the rails financially, right? And then you log on and this allows you to take a step back and say OK, what is the direction that things are going? And what’s happening in the asset column, what’s happening in the liability column? And I think having this front and center and tracking the progress over time and obviously through growing assets and paying down the liabilities, we want to see this number tick up over time. And of course, that’s going to be a big part of what we’re trying to do with the financial planning process. Tim, talk to us for a moment, you know, Sarah Stanley-Fallaw, who we had on, author of “The Next Millionaire Next Door” on Episode 200, in that book and I also remember discussion of this in “Rich Dad Poor Dad,” this idea of income-affluent versus balance sheet-affluent. Talk to us just a little bit at a high level, you know, what those two things are referring to and why this mindset is so important.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think so many — and we talk, we actually talked about this or around this, Tim, in terms of like YFP and the growth of the business where like we have these revenue goals and things like that and we really want to grow YFP and really touch as many pharmacists as we can. But that’s an ego metric, right? You know, to say, hey, we grew this many in terms of in revenue. It’s the same with income. What really matters from a business perspective is profitability. And it’s kind of the same on the individual side is — and we’ve talked about it, although we kind of do talk out of both sides of our mouth. So like one of the things that we’ve said, especially with pharmacists that are coming out that may have bought into the mantra of like, hey, don’t worry about your student loans, don’t worry about your finances, once you get that six-figure income, everything works itself out. And we know that that is not necessarily true. But the flip side of that, Tim, is one of the most valuable things that a pharmacist has with regard to their finances is their income, right? So without income, nothing moves. I think when we look at income affluence versus like balance sheet affluence is that we also know that there’s a lot of people and listeners out there, you can be one of them, I used to be one of these people, you could have friends and family that are like that, is that if you earn $100,000 and that’s the money that comes in the door, $100,000 goes out or $120,000 goes out because it’s kind of an exercise in keeping up with the Joneses. And the whole idea behind “The Next Millionaire Next Door,” which was following up on “The Millionaire Next Door,” is the whole idea is that most millionaires that you come across are not flashing it around. Right? So they’re not driving the $80,000 sports car, they’re not living in certain neighborhoods. So the idea is that this is more about what you keep, right? So to grow wealth over time is to kind of steer clear of some of those more ego things and really direct resources to what matters most. So like I don’t have a problem with a client spending money on a luxury sports car if that lines up with their goals and what their view of a wealthy life is. But we also know that money is a finite thing, so we can’t necessarily have our cake and eat it too in every part of our financial plan. So there is give-and-take. So what we try to do is really shift the idea behind, hey, this is the amount of money that we make to really focus on the net worth and show how that really drives progress and drives the conversation of what is a wealthy life. Because there’s a lot of people that make seven figures worth of income and have nothing to show for it. They’re not necessarily achieving their goals of travel and being able to take care of loved ones and giving and being able to be on track at a certain retirement age. So that is really what financial planning is designed to do is to align this great resource that pharmacists have and direct that towards the goals that they have to make sure that we’re maximizing or optimizing what a wealthy life is for that particular individual.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. And Tim, I want to talk about that further because I think that concept of living a wealthy life, you know, I suspect many pharmacists like myself might be of the mindset of, hey, I can squirrel money away and I can save it for the future, but I think there’s balance when it comes to the financial plan. And I think this is one area, to your credit of the model that we’ve built at YFP, that our planning team does an awesome job, and that’s ensuring that one’s financial plan is considering both the now and the future. As you say, it can’t just be about the 1s and the 0s in your bank account. So we’ve got to find this balance between taking care of your future self but also living a rich life today. And that really comes down to quantitative and qualitative factors of the financial plan. And I think financial planners are known for focusing on the numbers, right? And we’ve really built a process I think that is so important that we’re also covering some of the things that aren’t numbers-based. And certainly they could be number-based if we’re going to determine how we’re going to spend and allocate money, but in terms of goals and things we want to achieve, it’s not about, again, the 1s and 0s in the bank account. So tell us from the planning perspective, what does this actually look like? You know, I’m a new client, I’m meeting with you, like how do I actually begin to tell that story and what are you doing to extract this information so that we can then weave that into the numeric part of the financial plan?

Tim Baker: If we start with the balance sheet, Tim, right, so the net worth, we’ve got to know where we’re at, right? That’s the vital check that we’re really looking for. So that’s really our first data point. The second part of that is now that we know where we’re at, where the heck are we going? So that is where we actually slow down and ask clients some introspective questions about like what is, what do you want out of this life? What is a wealthy life for you? Like if today was your last day, what would be things that you haven’t yet done that you want to do? Or if you had 5-10 years left or if money were no object, what would be the thing that — how would you build your day-to-day schedule? So like really kind of going through a series of questions and extracting information so it really paints a picture of now that we know where we’re at, at least financially, where do we want to go? And those two things, Tim, is what changes the whole answer of like, ‘Hey, well, should I do this or that?’ Before I know those things, it’s like, ‘Well, it depends.’ Now that we know these things, where are we at and where are we wanting to go, we can actually advise clients on their financial plan. So how we do that really is to look at all the different pieces. So like once we figure out that picture, our job, which ultimately, our job as a planning team, which ultimately supports our mission at YFP which is to empower a community of pharmacists to achieve financial freedom, our mission in the planning team is a little bit different. It’s a little bit more granular. Our job with clients is to help clients grow and protect income, which is the lifeblood of the financial plan — without that, nothing moves — grow and protect your net worth, which is essentially what sticks, while keeping your goals in mind. That’s our jam, right? So that’s how we feel that we can best help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. So we do that through all the different pieces of the financial plan, which is fundamentals, which might include savings plan and debt management, cash flow and budgeting, insurance, investment, the tax piece, the estate plan, and then all of these other supplemental pieces like credit, salary negotiation, the home purchase and real estate investing, education planning. It might be ‘I’m an entrepreneur, I want to start a business.’ All of that stuff basically are the — those are the processes that get us to really refining out the financial plan and then the quantitative, and then we kind of observe the quantitative and qualitative results and then adjust from there. So the quantitative results, the one that we focus on most, is the net worth. So the idea is that when you become a client, we’re going to say, “Hey, your net worth, you’re starting at -$50,000. And our hope is in a short amount of time, we go from the negative to the little bit less negative to the positive to that multi, that seven-figure pharmacist status.” Or if you’re already positive, it’s to kind of keep that rolling and make sure that we are efficiently growing the net worth. I think the other thing, which I think often gets lost with other financial planners, is the qualitative. It is really that, the things that are outside of the 1s and 0s, which for pharmacists, sometimes that could be tough, Tim, because you guys are scientists, you want to say, “OK, what’s — if I pay this amount in fees, this is what I want to get back.” I completely get it. But to me, it’s the qualitative stuff that really is typically the things that when I get off of a call or I’m here and Robert and Kelly talk about their interactions with clients, that I want to run through a wall because I’m just so jacked up about like what we’re doing and how we’re transforming clients. Like that’s the special stuff. And I really, what I really like to say is that we want to build out a life plan that is supported by the financial plan, not the other way around. Right?

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Tim Baker: That’s our jam.

Tim Ulbrich: So important, the life plan that is supported by the financial plan. I just think that’s a completely different way of thinking. You know, I’m going to overgeneralize the industry for a moment, but I think that, again, it’s easy to focus on the numbers, and we’ve talked extensively on the show about why often that may be the case, you know, all the incentives in terms of why the dollars. So if you’re sitting down with a client, you know, and this is one of I think the beauties of a fee-only model where you’ve got their best interests in mind, if something is more experience-based, Tim, sometimes that might be let’s spend some money to make this happen because we said it’s important, and we’ve accounted for it in the rest of the goals and what we’re trying to do. Now, again, it’s a balance. We need to take care of our future self while taking care of ourself today and living a rich life. But you know, that traditional model would be take that money and stuff it into an IRA because that might be a greater percentage of fees — you know, we talked about fees recently on the show. So I think that is so important when folks are looking for financial planning, whether that’s with us or somewhere else, is is that life plan being connected and have a strong connection thread with the financial plan? And I’ll say from personal experience, Tim, for Jess and I working with you, like it just feels like life goes by at lightning speed. And part of that may be phase of life, you know, young family, whatever. But just to slow down and not only think about these goals but then to have somebody actually put these back up in front of you every so often and say, “Hey, Tim and Jess, you guys said this was important. Like what are we doing about it?”

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: You know, “What are we doing about it?” And I need that because I am the person that I’ll try to squirrel away $4 instead of $3 million. And I know, like I know in my head, that when it’s all said and done, I’m not going to care if that was $2.5 or $3 or $3.5 and $4. Like there’s a point where enough is enough, but it’s the experiences and the other things that I think are really going to matter.

Tim Baker: Yeah. You are going to look back and be like, ‘Ah, I wish I would have done this with Sam and Everett and Levi. Like I wouldn’t — and Ben and done all these things.’ And we’ve talked about this, and I’ll cite a personal story. You know, my wife and I, we’ve been saving money really to kind of look at the next level from a real estate perspective, and we kind of just took a pause and we had this extensive conversation of like, do we really want to do this? You know, Olivia is our 6-year-old, we have Liam who’s turning 2. And we really have a window of time, right? We have a window of time where we have them as a captive audience, right? Maybe 10 years before Olivia is like, ‘Dad, get out of my face.’

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, you’re going to be still cool for awhile. Yeah.

Tim Baker: Yeah, like so I look at that like my dad — actually, my dad jokes do not land with her. She’s like, ‘Daddy.’ So I’m already losing that a little bit. But in terms of being able to spend time and have those experiences, that’s a small window. It is a very small window. And the discussion is really around should we put this into an investment, which from a number perspective is going to be probably the best thing that we can do, right? There’s no guarantees, right, with real estate or any investment. But to put this chunk of money there or do we do what my vision was in my life plan — so I’ve recently completed the Registered Life Planning designation, and when I was life planning, I still remember it like it was yesterday. You create this vision, and you create this energy behind this vision sometime in the near future. And for me, it was buying an RV and having the freedom in the summers and on the weekends or long weekends and maybe weeks at a time to go and travel and adventure and see national parks and things like that. But part of me, Tim, is like — the financial planner in me is man, if we purchase an RV, that’s a use asset that’s depreciating over time, I can’t rent that — I guess I can kind of rent it out. And it’s kind of nonsense, right? It’s kind of like a no-brainer. And it’s a struggle, right, even for me where I’m pushing, we’re pushing clients to really achieve that wealthy life. This is the thing when I talk about it, I get excited and passionate about. And for some people, it’s starting a family, for some people, it’s playing in a band. For some people, it’s horseback riding. These are examples that we’ve had with clients that, you know, they were like, when they talk about it, they just light up. And I’m like, this has to be in your financial plan. Like when you talk about becoming a mom or you talk about before you were in pharmacy school, these were the things that you were passionate about. I know we have, and I know we have some credit card debt, and I know we want to get the investment game rolling, but we’ve got to stop and smell the roses along the way and make sure that we’re taking care of ourselves today. So it’s just a passion of mine, and these are the things, like when you kind of look at a situation that clients think — and we know this with millennials in particular but we’re seeing it with like sandwich generation and Gen X and even Baby Boomers in terms of how they can retire, with millennials, it’s everything is going to the right. Like marriage, home purchase, kids, and I want to challenge that. I want to — if you work with a professional, I want to challenge that. And I think if we’re doing things — and sometimes, we as a team, we don’t necessarily think about all the things that we do technically, the things that most people expect about an efficient debt payoff process, an efficient investment process, efficient tax plan, like we don’t really think about those as much as we should, and we should pat ourselves on the back in terms of what we do with clients. But that to me is like table stakes. It’s the next level of things to then challenge the client of like, ‘Well, maybe that timeline of 5 years is not accurate. Maybe we can do a little bit more.’ And I think if you then couple that with an efficient budget and spending plan, I mean, really the sky’s the limit. And that’s what I really get jacked up about. You know, I get jacked up about the pharmacist that says, “Hey, here’s my 4-month-year-old, this is your fault, Tim,” in more of a conversation like, we thought that we would have to wait so much longer, not because we paid off our loans or we did this or that, it’s because we have confidence in our plan. And that to me is what continues to drive me and jack me up and really push forward, and that’s why we get up in the morning to really push forward that mission, again, to empower pharmacists to achieve financial freedom. It’s a great job, it’s a great position to be in to be able to influence that in such a way.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker, great stuff today. Loved the discussion on the importance of net worth and setting both quantitative and qualitative financial goals. And throughout the episode, several times we mentioned and referred to specific parts of our planning process at YFP Planning. So for folks that are listening to today’s episode and are interested in learning more about our one-on-one comprehensive financial planning services, you can head on over to YFPPlanning.com, you can schedule and book a free discovery call and determine whether or not our services may be a good fit for you. As always, we appreciate you joining us for this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Please do us a favor and leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show each and every week. That helps other pharmacy professionals find out and learn about this show. Thanks again for listening, and have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 208: Why Minimizing Fees On Your Investments Is So Important

Posted on June 17, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

Why Minimizing Fees On Your Investments Is So Important

Tim Baker digs into the f-word we want to minimize when it comes to our investments…FEES! When you do the hard work to save money, you should be interested in keeping as much of that investment intact by minimizing the fees that can take away from your long-term gains. Tim discusses various fees, the impact these fees can have on achieving your long-term savings goals, and strategies you can take to evaluate the fees related to your own investment plan.

Summary

Tim Baker discusses the many types of fees associated with your investments and their impact on your financial plan, including expense ratios, platform fees, trading fees, and advisor fees. He also breaks down the ABCs of mutual funds: A shares, B shares, and C shares and the types of fees each of these investments may include. Tim further details how these fees can impact your investments over time, affect growth, and impact your financial plan overall.

Tim discusses his experiences with clients, sharing that many do not know they are being charged various fees or do not understand the full impact the cost can be in the long term. While many fees may be challenging to uncover, Tim shares the importance of asking questions about fees, whether you are just getting started or are farther into your investment history. Investors should be asking what their fees are, why they are paying them, and the benefit – if any – they have on the investments.

Tim mentions that it’s okay to pay a fee for professional help but be wary when advisors are charging commission because there may be a conflict of interest. Tim also suggests you ask what you are getting for your fees across the board, with professional services as well as the investments themselves. Typically, the expense that you pay does not equate to increased benefits for the investor, so trimming those fees whenever and wherever possible may benefit the investor over time.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, back-to-back episodes. Good to have you on again.

Tim Baker: Yeah, good to be back. I’m excited for this episode. I think it’s going to be hopefully valuable for those that are listening.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I think so. And we talked last week about common financial errors or mistakes, some that we’ve made, some we’ve seen other pharmacist clients, colleagues, make. And today, we’re talking about one that was not on that list of common mistakes we discussed last episode but certainly can have a major impact on how much wealth you’re able to build. And we’re going to talk really big numbers at the impact that fees can have, fees on the investments is going to be the focus of today’s discussion and hopefully shedding some light on a topic that maybe folks have heard about but haven’t really thought about and evaluated for their own investing plan. So Tim, one of the things I share when I talk on the topic of investing is that if you’re going to do all of the hard work to save money each and every month, take advantage of compound interest and the time value of money, then we want to do everything we can to maintain as much of the pie as possible. And I often think that there’s really three big things that can eat at our investment pie: that’s taxes — and we’ve talked about that on several episodes on the show of things that we can do from the tax-advantaged investing standpoint — inflation — obviously can be out of control to some degree — and then the third is the one we’re going to be talking about today, which is fees. And something I’ve heard you say before is that you need to follow the “Three F Rule” of 401k management. And that’s Figure out the Fees First. So that’s what we’re going to be digging into today, and that’s even beyond just the 401k when we talk about fees. So Tim, before we get too far into the weeds about this discussion of fees, let’s back up a bit as some may be thinking, fees on my investments? What fees on my investments? So talk to us a little bit about the common fees that are out there when it comes to one’s individual investment portfolio.

Tim Baker: Yeah, if I could even back up further, Tim, I would even say like the importance of this — like it shouldn’t be understated. And I think that, you know, when we — kind of like when I talk about baby stepping the financial plan, we look at things like what does the emergency fund look like, what does the consumer debt look like.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: When we dive in particular into the investment part of the financial plan, one of the first things I look at is fees. And you know, outside of the asset allocation, which the asset allocation being like how do I divvy up in a broad sense between like stocks versus bonds and you can actually get more granular than that, outside of the asset allocations, the fees probably play one of the biggest roles in your ability to kind of build wealth over time and really the fees, just like you mentioned along with tax and inflation, is it can really be in a factor that erodes that ability to build wealth. So it’s super important. And you know, when I look at the fees, one of the problems in the industry is that the industry is not super transparent with regard to what the investor pays. A lot of these can be wrapped up in products that are sold to investors or not necessarily appropriately disclosed on a statement. So you’re really up against it when you’re trying to figure out, OK, what exactly am I paying? And the fact that it can be a little bit opaque in that regard is frustrating. I think that’s one of the things that we work with our clients is to show them, ‘Hey, did you know that you’re paying this in your 401k?’ And most people are like, ‘I had no idea.’ Then the question is, ‘Is that good or bad?’ And I’m like, ‘Well, it’s typically higher than what we see,’ or something along those lines. So to me, the name in the game is really trying to understand — to answer the question, what are the things that you could be charged? And then like what is that exactly for your particular case? So if we look at the things that we typically see, if we look at the 401k first, you know, the things that are typically in the 401k are things like platform fees. So this might be where Fidelity or Schwab or someone might charge you a fee just to really have an account with them. And that’s less common in a 401k. You typically see them more in brokerage accounts, more in IRAs. When I was in the broker dealer world, we would charge — the custodian would charge clients just to have an account open. And a lot of this is in also response to like lower entrance environments. You know, they’re trying to make money where they can. And sometimes these additional line item fees are created. Things like trading fees and transaction fees. So this is like anytime that you buy and sell, again, typically you don’t see these inside of a 401k, but you do see these outside, like a brokerage account, an IRA, you know, if you buy stock ABC, sometimes you’ll be charged anywhere from $7 to $50 a trade. Now, these have kind of become less and less common as a lot of the custodians want to be competitive and they’ll waive fees and things like that.

Tim Ulbrich: Race to 0 here, right?

Tim Baker: Exactly.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: Yep. The other thing that you would see are things like advisor fees. So these can be both within inside and outside of a 401k. So these are things like, ‘Hey, I work with an advisor, and they charge me a flat 1% on the investments that they’re managing.’ It could also come in the form of commissions, and that’s a whole other ball of wax in terms of how an A share, a B share, a C share mutual fund, you typically don’t see commissions inside of a 401k, but you do see — sometimes you see C share, which are commissions, inside of a 401k. But you typically see those more in brokerage accounts, IRAs, and such that. And then probably the last one that basically permeates just about every investment is expense ratio. So the expense ratio is the money that the fund takes to kind of run the fund. So if I’m a mutual fund manager, Tim, and I’m in charge of a large cap mutual fund, you know, I’m managing billions of dollars, so I’m pulling a bunch of investors’ money together to buy large cap stocks and the like. Then I need to pay myself, I need to pay for the fancy office on Wall Street, I need to be able to pay for information. I might even need to pay sales people to go out and market my fund. So those all are basically captured in an expense ratio. So the expense ratio basically, you know, takes money out of that fund and it’s shared, that expense is shared, with the rest of the investors that are invested in it. So those are typically the broad strokes. You also see other ones I would say outside — and these kind of can get wrapped up into platform fees — but you’ll see like administrative or like bookkeeping fees in a 401k. And this could be like record keeping and all of the laws that are surrounding 401k plans and 403b’s. These can be pretty prohibitive. Sometimes they’re a flat fee, sometimes they’re a percentage. But these are kind of just administrative fees that, again, that are not listed on a — they’re not listed on a statement anywhere. It’s just part of the plan and what the plan takes to make sure it runs within the laws of the United States.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, when I hear you say, you know — and obviously it depends on the account, you mentioned some of these may be more applicable to like an IRA, brokerage, others across the board, but several different types of fees you mentioned, right? Platform fees, advisor fees, trading fees, sometimes commission fees, expense ratios perhaps is the one that folks may be most aware of. My follow-up question is transparency and understanding of these fees. So those are two very different things to me. You know? Even if something is transparent, how it’s disclosed or how somebody may be informed of it or how easy it is to find that information obviously can lead to whether or not they may have an understanding of it. So in your experience working with clients and really more specifically our clients at YFP Planning, is this something that you find folks are surprised by? And how transparent and accessible is this information to either the individual or you as the advisor trying to work with them?

Tim Baker: Yeah, Tim, so I think it is a surprise. And what I typically try to do to kind of make it a little bit more real is put it in real dollar sense. So you know, one of the things that when we talk to pharmacy schools and we’re trying to like drive home the point that this isn’t Monopoly money, that when you graduate, you’re like at with the average student loan debt that graduates are coming out with, it’s a $2,000 payment for 10 years. And when most people think about it in that terms, you’re like, ‘Oh, OK, that becomes more real.’ So I try to do the same thing with the fees. So yeah, like when we go over this, I think at first, it’s like, ‘Oh, OK, well that doesn’t sound that bad.’ You know, so like I’m looking at this independent pharmacist, their 401k, and typically the smaller the employer, the worse the 401k is or the most more expensive it is per each participant. So like this particular pharmacist, their all-in when they look at the administrative fees and the average investment fees, it’s about 1.27%. So you’re like, ‘Wow, that doesn’t sound too bad, 1.27%.’ But if you have $100,000 in that 401k, that’s $1,270 per year that the 401k and the funds inside of the 401k basically absorbs. So with this particular client, they have $250,000 in that, so that’s a lot more. It’s a lot more money. It’s more than double that every year. And again, it’s not like it’s a line item on the statement anywhere. It’s what the 401k takes to run and the investments take to basically run the funds that they’re in. So what we really try to do is, again, look at it — and we have tools that can assess that information. But even to do it yourself — and I’ve tried to do this even outside of the tools that we use — it’s hard to find. You have to find basically the plan. Every year, they have to file what’s called a Form 5500 with the IRS that basically outlines how much money is in the fund and what are the assets, what are the liabilities, if there’s any loans, what are the admin expenses. And a lot of those are just a dollar amount that’s populated in there. So like sometimes you might see like, ‘Oh, my administrative fee is 1.2%.’ And then the next time we log into our tool, it’s 1.4% just because there’s new data that’s been filed with the IRS. So it’s a little bit of a moving target as well. And I think the — you know, I think I read a stat somewhere that the average 401k all-in expense is about like 1.68%.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s wild.

Tim Baker: So — yeah. And again, when I look at our 401k that we’ve set up at YFP, I think it’s less than .2%. I think the fees have changed a little bit for ours, but I think when you look at the expense ratio and everything, it’s less than .2%. So it’s a factor of 8. So if I’m paying $1,000 — and again, that’s a pretty large 401k with that, then I don’t want to pay $8,000 a year. So those are some of the things that most people when they say, ‘Oh, like 1.2% is not bad,’ but then when we actually put in dollars — and then if we compound that year over year, it really adds up. So to me, the fees are so important. And I think another discussion to have is like OK, but like are the fees worth it?

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right. Yep.

Tim Baker: And I would say in a lot of the cases, no. I mean, with some of these fees, you have to pay the fees to be able to like have the fund run and things like that. But in a lot of cases, if you’re paying 10x the amount in terms of an expense ratio, you’re not getting 10x the performance or it’s not 10x safer for the same amount of performance. So every type of fee is going to be different in why you would pay this versus that, but in most cases, the name of the game is to kind of shave that down as much as you can to really the investments unadulterated so it can grow and really allow you to build wealth over 10, 20, 30 years, whatever the time horizon is.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think one of the things, Tim, I’ve heard you say often is that our job, your job, and the planning team’s job, one of the roles is to really try to keep as much of that contribution intact as possible and allow the compound growth to do its thing, right? So really minimize the fees that are coming out of that. And I think that’s so important. You know, again, back to my earlier comment, if you’re already doing the hard work, right, to put away whatever percentage of your income each and every month towards long-term savings, then why do we want to give up anything in terms of the fees? And that example you gave is really powerful, that independent pharmacist who’s got $250,000 in that account with a 1.27%, which is, as you mentioned, is lower than the average 401k. You know, that’s a little over $3,000 this year. But as that account continues to grow and compound, that $250,000 is eventually going to turn into likely $300,000 and $400,000 and $500,000 and so on. And that fee obviously will continue to go up over time. So let me ask the big and nebulous question. Like yeah, maybe a 10x fee isn’t worth or justified that you’re going to have that value, but is there a place where the fees are justified? You know, such that whatever would be the net return inclusive of fees makes the fees worth it? And how do you evaluate that decision?

Tim Baker: Yeah, I mean, I think with — so it’s going to sound a little self-serving, but I think if you’re paying an advisor, a fiduciary, a fee-only advisor, and you’re paying them say whatever percentage out of your investments to be able to do financial planning or investment management or what we do, which is very comprehensive with the tax work and really a lot of different components there, I think that the return that you get far exceeds what you pay. The idea is that our focus is on more of wealth building, not necessarily just the investments and everything else but it kind of is beyond that. When I think of the — if you take things like expense ratio as an example, I’m looking at a client who — you know, and that same client that was at 1.27%, I think when we first started working with them, it was close to 2% because there are things that you can control and there are things that you can’t control with regard to the 401k. So things that you can’t really control are things like administrative, record keeping fees. Like that’s just — you know, I always talk about with the investments in a 401k, that’s the sandbox. Like those are the toys that you can play with. There’s only 10, 20 mutual funds in there. And it’s the same thing, like with some of the fees, you can’t really effect change unless you’re small enough that you can, you work for an independent pharmacy, you can say, “Hey, boss, this 401k is pretty terrible. Can we replace it?” For bigger organizations, that’s a harder thing to go about. So you’re kind of stuck with those fees. But things that you can control somewhat are things like the expense ratio. So this particular client’s, her average investment fees are .06%. So that’s her expense ratio. But when we started, it was closer to .8%. So again, a $100,000 portfolio, just for this part of the portfolio, she’s paying $60 per year whereas before she’s paying over $800. So the reason that we did that — or how we got there is that the funds that she was in, she was selecting a lot of the funds that she heard of like American funds or I think there was like a Morgan Stanley here and JP Morgan. And these funds are more expensive as in comparison. So I’m in this particular portfolio, and I’m looking at the mid-cap fund that she was in, it’s called a Touchstone mid cap, and the ticker is TMPIX. That costs .9%. So if I had $100,000 just in this, I would be paying $900 per year. What we replaced that with was an iShares fund that basically is .05%. So .9% versus .05%. So $50 on $100,000 or $900. So like those are things that you can control. And for the most part, there’s going to be differences, especially as you get to mid and small and international funds. Like there will be some differences in performance and some differences here and there, but for the most part, you know, like if I look at those same funds and I have the data that says over the course of a year, the mid cap iShares that we put her in is up 56%. The one that was more expensive is up 33%. You know, five years, it’s pretty close, 17% with the one that we put her in, 16%. So the performance, these are things you have to look at: since inception, 10% versus 9% for that. So like there are things that you have to look at, but typically the expense that you pay is not worth it. And for things like large cap, when you click into those and you say, ‘OK, what am I actually invested in?’ So like what are the underlying funds, it’s the same stuff, Tim. It’s things like that we know about. It’s Apple, it’s Microsoft, it’s Amazon, Facebook. It’s just that if you wrap it in a more expensive wrapper, you charge 5, 6, 10x just because it’s a known entity, even though Vanguard and iShares are pretty known, there is — like from a large cap fund, it should be very cheap because everyone is invested in the same stuff. So I don’t like paying high administrative fees. I don’t mind paying like a flat dollar amount, so like there’s sometimes you see like, oh, it’s $80. OK. That’s better than .8%. Expense ratio, I don’t like paying a high expense ratio. I don’t like when advisors charge commission. I just think that there’s a conflict of interest there. So these are typically outside of the 401k. So I think it’s OK to pay a fee for professional help, but it just depends on like what do you get for that? And you know, and all of the associated fees that come with that, what do you get for that? So if there are 401k’s that charge you .2% or less and then there’s some that charge you close to 2%, that’s a big range over the course of — and are you getting 12x more value there? And I typically say the answer is no.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I think it’s just a really good reminder, you know, Tim, that No. 1, not all fees are created equal. Right? So really asking yourself, what may or may not be justified with this fee? And then you know, I think really evaluating and understanding what your current fee situation is and recognizing that some of that may not be in your control, to your point, that especially for those that work for a larger organization, unless you’ve got the ear of HR and can influence those decisions, that 401k plan is probably what it is in terms of some of those fees. But within the fee options, might you have some control when it comes to expense ratio and then obviously in other accounts, IRA and so forth, then you can leverage other options to reduce those fees. Tim, I suspect that many of our listeners, especially those that are listening today that have been saving for some time, might be investing in mutual funds through various institutions to be unnamed and are paying substantial fees and, as we’ve discussed, aren’t even aware of it. So I want to take a few minutes to just break down the A, B, Cs of mutual funds. And that’s A shares, B shares, and C shares. So can you quickly define the difference between A shares, B shares, and C shares and then talk to us a little bit about what is the fees or could be the fees associated with those types of shares?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so whenever you see A shares, B shares, C shares, what you typically — think commission. So that’s — it’s a sales commission for that intermediary, the intermediary being the financial advisor, that is selling you a product, i.e. a mutual fund, in exchange for a commission. And I’ve sold these in the past, so like I’m a big proponent of fee-only. I haven’t always been a fee-only advisor. I started in the industry in fee-based, which is often confused for fee-only. A lot of the fee-only people want advisors that are fee-based to identify as fee and commission. So when I was in this model, I thought, again, I thought we were great because we didn’t have to sell a proprietary product that was with one of the big financial institutions. We could basically sell whatever we wanted. But the reality is that you want to really work with someone that is not selling on commission, in my opinion, because I think there’s a conflict of interest there. So anytime that you have the sale of a product with advice, there’s a conflict. So when you hear or see A, B, C shares — and you can typically see this, you can see this on the statement, but it’s not necessarily as intuitive as you would want it. So like I’m looking at a statement from a very big institution that I know goes and markets to pharmacists, talks to pharmacy schools, but on the statement, I see the mutual funds that this particular pharmacist was in was a Washington Mutual Investors Fund, CL A. So CL A. So that’s Class A, which that’s an A share mutual fund. So what that means is that for an A share mutual fund, these are up front basically fees or commissions with lower expense ratios. So these are typically better for long-term investors. I would say they’re not necessarily good for anybody. But the idea, Tim, is that if this particular — say you opened up an IRA with me and I basically charged you an A share commission, this particular fund I think basically charges 5.75%. So $5,000 times 5.75%, that’s a $287 commission that goes straight to me. So basically, when I look at my statement the next time, my statement is going to be like $4,700. It’s going to be $300 short. A lot of advisors don’t necessarily like to sell those because it can be very, you know, abrupt for clients. The other way to basically sell these — and I’ve never sold a B share, and I’m not sure how prevalent they are, but a B share, it’s basically, it has high exit fees for when you sell and higher expense ratios. But they convert over to A shares over basically the course of many years. So the idea is that you don’t get that kind of abrupt fee, but if you hold the investment long enough, it basically converts into an A share. And I don’t have as much experience with these and I haven’t seen these much, even on statements. But the one that I do see fairly often is called a C share. So these have higher expense ratios than A shares and a small exit fee that’s typically waived after one year. So the idea is that in that same example, if you were to basically buy, put $5,000 into a C share mutual fund, you wouldn’t necessarily get hit with a big commission up front, but what’s basically on there is — and it’s kind of built into the total expense ratio — is 12b1 fees. So this is like a marketing fee. So as the advisor, I would be making say like 1% as long as you held that investment. So it’s more of a trailing commission that you pay versus an up front commission. And these could be very prohibitive to an investor. Lots of fees that you really don’t understand how you’re paying. And the advisor is basically getting paid that marketing or that service fee over the course of however long you’ve held that investment.

Tim Ulbrich: So Tim, let me ask the question that I suspect many of our listeners are thinking, that I’m thinking individually as you describe A shares, B shares, C shares on the heels of our discussion of today’s day and age where we can obviously have an option to reduce some of those fees, whether that be up front trading fees or even ongoing expense ratios. There’s other options that are out there. What is the role, if any, for these A shares, B shares, and C shares? Like are these ever in the best interest of a client? And I say that dramatically knowing it’s not a black-and-white answer, but why would I invest in an A share, B share, or C share?

Tim Baker: So in my experience in this world, you would charge a client — and this is going to be very true for many kind of new practitioners and pharmacists that are out there that are maybe seeking help and a lot of people that are listening to this. So the industry and really why I’m here sitting in this seat and why, Tim, we’re partners, it kind of is derived from the story or the way that the industry basically operates. So when I was in the fee and commission, the fee-based world, it was — and I started working with a lot of pharmacists — the going advice was — you know, and I remember, I actually remember, I have this pivotal memory where I was talking to my mentor and I think the pharmacist couple that I was working with, they had something like $300,000 in student loans. And I was like, ‘Hey, mentor, like what do you think that we should do with this client’s?’ And basically, the advice was, to me, to how to advise the client was to say, “Hey, just tell them the loans will figure themselves out. Either a snowball or something like that, focus on the highest interest first,” which is terrible advice, Tim, as we all know, that the student loans are going to be more nuanced. And then you know, because this client maybe had like $20,000 to invest, that’s not a lot of money. So like it was sell them insurance that they didn’t need, so whether that was life or disability insurance, and then invest their IRA or something like that and then just touch base with them every couple years until they have $50,000, $100,000, $250,000, and then you can actually ‘help’ them. The problem with this model, Tim, is that it’s not a planning issue. Like we work with clients that are in their 30s that there is a lot of need there to get their investments, their debt, their cash flowing budgeting, their insurance, their credit, their taxes, all humming and working in a unified fashion that we’re really trying to take the resources that the client has and apply them in a way that is a wealthy life to them. It’s not a planning issue. It’s a pricing issue. And unfortunately, the way that the industry is set up is that, hey, unless you have investments, I can’t really do anything for you. And it’s because somebody with $20,000, that’s $200 a year on a 1% AUM versus if someone had $200,000, 1%, that’s $2,000. So money talks, right? So that’s where A share and C share and those types of commissions come into play is like typically if it was less than $50,000 or typically less than $100,000, you would charge these commissions, especially the A share, because it was a higher upfront or a C share because it was more — I want to say it was more undetected, under the radar. And then you would couple that with a crappy insurance product or disability that they might not need. Or maybe they do need, but you’re still making commission on that. And that was a way for you to help the client and make a little bit of money, feed yourself at the same time. And I don’t want to — so I also don’t want to paint a picture, sometimes especially in the fee-only community, there is this picture that’s painted that like people that charge commissions are evil. They’re not. They’re not. It’s just the difference in model. And you know, I was early enough in my career that I recognized — in financial services — that I recognized that there was a better way, and that’s being fee-only and that’s not charging these commissions. So I was able to pivot away from that. It’s not that they’re evil, it’s just that I think the model or the system that they’re in doesn’t necessarily suit itself for a lot of clients. You know, typically — we talk about this with insurance — typically the better the insurance product is for the person that’s selling it, the worse it is for the person that’s basically buying it. So there is this kind of 0-sum, so to speak. So if you’re out there and you’re like, ‘Hmm, I’m listening to Tim and I’m going to look at my statement and see,’ if you see like A’s and C’s next to your mutual fund that says Class A or just I’m looking at one that says Investo Equity and Income Funds C, I know that that particular — at that particular time, he’s being charged kind of an ongoing trail that’s eating away. And again, if he’s being serviced for that, maybe that’s worth it. But in most cases, it’s not. I wouldn’t say that there’s ever — there’s never a time — but I would say, you know, again, there are advisors out there that will work with you in a fiduciary capacity and that should be divorced from the commissions that you would make from selling a product. So one of the things that, you know, kind of longer story longer, Tim, one of the things that I talk about, when I was in the broker-dealer world, the fee-based, fee and commission world, this is the story that I tell prospects and clients is you know, I would show up to the office and I would see on my counter, I’m like, ‘Oh, this mutual fund wholesaler is going to come a-knocking.’ And that wholesaler would show up to our office in a fancy suit, he would take basically the advisors in our office, which was me and my mentor, he would take us out to a fancy dinner or a fancy lunch, I should say, he would show us fancy glossies about why his funds were so — or her funds were so great. And then he would basically say, “Hey, when your client Tim Ulbrich, when he leaves his job or if he has money on the side and he wants to roll over that Fidelity 401k, like use our funds.” And —

Tim Ulbrich: Sounds like another industry I know, Tim.

Tim Baker: Yeah, it sounds like drug rep, right? And when I say that, most people are like, ‘Oh yeah.’ But here’s the difference, Tim. Like in the medical world, my understanding is that it’s illegal for physicians to get kickbacks from pharmaceutical companies because it taints their ability to prescribe medication without the strings attached, right?

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. Yep.

Tim Baker: But if we compare that to my industry, the financial services, not only is it legal, it’s prevalent. So like 95% of advisors out there operate in this manner. So like now, like no one takes me out to lunch, Tim. No one takes me out to lunch because I’m not incentivized to put someone in these mutual funds because I don’t make a commission from that. So what I’m incentivized to do is to put the client in the best situation across the board, but particularly for the investments we’re talking about where they’re paying the least amount for the most gain. So like, I would get through those lunches — again, they’re not all bad. You would learn something. But you kind of felt like you needed to take a shower because you kind of — you know, they gave you something. They gave you a nice lunch, so you’re kind of like, alright, well, if this client rolls it over, you kind of feel beholden to them. And I just hated that feeling. And by the way, if you’re putting those sales rep out in the field, that costs money.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Tim Baker: Who pays for that? The investor does. And that typically means that fund that you’re investing in is going to be more expensive. So I remember having this conversation, you know, and I was talking to this old wholesaler, this experienced, I should say, wholesaler, and I’m like — and I found the kind of story to really dig deeper, and I’m like, “So how can you guys justify charging 1.5% on your large cap when I could put the client in a Vanguard fund that’s .05%?” And he started talking about like, you know — and again, there was nothing about that when I was buying because it’s literally 10x more — like it’s so much more, and I just don’t think that you get that return. So I know a little bit — kind of on a tangent there — but to me, it’s one of these things that I think as a pharmacist, these are things that you probably aren’t looking at that over the course of years really have a compounding factor, either from a negative perspective or if you can remove those, it can be very positive. So it’s important to maybe dust off your statement and look at it and really understand what you’re paying.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and as we zoom out for a moment, Tim, to that point coming full circle here, don’t underestimate the long-term impact of these fees. You know, any one year, especially for those that are maybe getting started with investing and haven’t built up that large portfolio, you might look at 1%, 1.2%, 1.5% and say, ‘Eh, what’s the big deal?’ But if you look at 1.5%, as an example, versus .2% as another example and perhaps even an opportunity to get lower than that, over the long range of 30 or 35 years, that’s a big frickin’ deal.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Big deal. And I wrote a blog post a couple years back that we’ll link to in the show notes really showing two side-by-side examples of somebody who’s investing over 35 years, another person same timeline, 1.5% average annual fee versus .2%, and it ends up being the difference of $1 million. And the title of that article is “Are You Making this $1 Million Mistake?” And you know, for some, maybe it’s larger. For others, maybe it’s a little bit smaller. But I think it’s so important that we uncover, understand, and begin to put a plan in place that can minimize these fees if possible wherever you have control of doing that. Tim, two perspectives I want to talk about as we wrap up this really important: And that’s first, from the perspective of, ‘Hey, I’m listening and I’m at the beginning of my investing journey. What can I do?’ And then somebody who’s listening that says, ‘You know what, I’m more in the wealth-building phase. I’ve been investing, maybe I’ve got a loose understanding of some of these fees but I’m not exactly sure. And what can I do and pivot now? And is it perhaps too late or not?’ So what would you say to those two individuals, one who’s just getting started, what tangible steps that I can take, and somebody who’s maybe a little bit later on in their journey and wondering is it too late and are there steps that I can take to help reconcile some of this issue around fees?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think for both of those buckets of people, I think it really goes back to what are your goals, right? So I think some people, they work with an advisor because they think that’s the right thing to do. And the advisor, you know, unfortunately sometimes it’s like every solution is the same. So everyone needs insurance and I need to make that commission. And that’s not true. I think it’s really understanding what your goals are, and that’s the first and foremost thing. And I think from there, if you’re at the beginning of the journey, I think it’s ask questions. You know, if I’m looking at my 401k statement, I want to understand why am I paying these fees? A lot of 401k’s, they have these managed solutions, and I’m like, well what do you get for that? And most of the time, it’s not a whole lot. Same thing like if you’re at the beginning and you maybe, you were contacted by an advisor in pharmacy school, chances are if you started working with them, a lot of those in mutual funds and IRAs and even — we just signed on a client that was sold this recently, and we’re like, it’s kind of a process of unwinding them. It’s really being cognizant of this and don’t sweep this under the rug. So like it’s definitely something that can compound over many, many years. So you want to get it right out of the gate. And it isn’t ever too late. So for the second, for the wealth-building phase, people that maybe have been working with an advisor for a long time or maybe their advisor is someone that’s been in the family, things have changed. So like even 10 years ago, what was offered in terms of high expenses and commissions and things like that, that day is thankfully dying with the advent of Vanguard and really trying to drive fees down and things like that. But I look at some of these well-known institutions that a lot of pharmacists work with, there’s just a better route. So like, you know, I’m looking at this particular statement, and the all-in for what this particular client was paying on commissions and everything like that was something like 1.75%.

Tim Ulbrich: Sheesh.

Tim Baker: You know? And if I compare that to like what we do, like if we were to move that into an IRA, it’s like .05%. And it almost sounds like fake. It sounds like it’s not real. But the reality is it’s like if you can get your money in a position where it’s unadulterated by those kind of hidden — and I could say they are kind of hidden because if you look at the statement and I search like “commission” or “fee,” it’s nonexistent. There might be like a fee disclaimer in the small print, but again, it’s not a line item that’s very obvious to the investor. So I would just say, like I would question, again, if you’re in a wealth-building stage, I would question what you’re currently in and if there’s a better way, just like we do with car insurance and things like that. There are opportunities out there to potentially be in a better position to again, really allow you to build money and grow wealth over time.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and Tim, I would wrap up here by telling our listeners and community, whether you’re at the beginning of this journey, whether you’re in that wealth-building phase, whether you’re somewhere in between, I think this obviously is such an important topic. And we would love to have the opportunity to talk with you to see if what we offer at YFP Planning is a good fit for you and your individual plan and situation. And folks can find more by going to YFPPlanning.com, they can schedule a free discovery call. And I’m going to toot our own horn for a minute, but I’m so proud of what we have built — Tim, really what you have built starting back in the days of Script Financial, which is a fee-only comprehensive financial planning model. And one of the things I so appreciate about that model is it’s fully transparent, the fees are the fees in terms of what we charge for our services, and the client is paying our financial planning team for the advice that they’re giving related to their financial plan as a whole. So you know, whether that means we’ve got to spend a boatload of time on the investments and the retirement side of the plan, whether that’s we need to spend some time on the tax side or the insurance side or the student loan side or the home buying side, whatever would be the aspect of the financial plan, by nature, because of how that client is transparently paying for the advice and the transparency of those fees, we can spend the time where we feel like it’s most needed for the client and their financial plan and ultimately is in their best interest. And so that’s a model that I’m really proud of that we offer to the YFP community and for folks that are looking for a financial planner or perhaps re-evaluating the relationship they have currently, head on over to YFPPlanning.com and you can schedule a free discovery call. Tim Baker, great stuff, as always. And appreciate your time and expertise here as it relates to the discussion of fees and looking forward to upcoming content we have for the second half of 2021.

Tim Baker: Yeah, thanks, Tim.

Tim Ulbrich: As always, a thank you to the listeners for joining us on this week’s episode. And as we wrap up this first half of 2021, we appreciate you listening but also would appreciate if you could leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts, which ultimately helps other people find this show. Our mission is to help as many pharmacy professionals as we can on their path towards achieving financial freedom, and one way we can do that is by reaching more people with this show. So if you haven’t already done so, please do us that favor, leave us a rating and review and ultimately that will help others find the show in the future. Thanks for joining us and have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 207: How to Avoid These 6 Common Financial Mistakes

Posted on June 10, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

How to Avoid These 6 Common Financial Mistakes

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, YFP Co-founder and Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, discusses common financial errors ranging from those made with investing, insurance, credit, and more. Whether you are just getting started with your financial plan or looking for a tune-up, this episode will help you avoid the most common financial blunders so you can maximize your financial plan and achieve your financial goals.

Summary

Tim Baker and Tim Ulbrich discuss six common financial mistakes and how to avoid them. While financial mistakes may seem inevitable, Tim and Tim speak from their own experiences with financial errors and share ways to prevent these mistakes from impacting your financial plan and financial goals.

Common financial errors discussed in this episode include:

1. Not taking advantage of employer match

When you don’t take advantage of your employer’s match, you essentially turn down free money. Many people don’t take full advantage of employer matches because they are not auto-enrolled to do so. Getting the maximum amount out of your employer match increases your compound interest over time.

2. No budget or no financial plan

Without a budget or financial plan, it is increasingly difficult to reach your financial goals. The budget is not a one-size-fits-all and should custom fit your personal experience and what works for you.

3. No insurance or inadequate insurance

As a pharmacist with a spouse, house, and mouths to feed, you should be aware of your insurance needs and insured for an event that will require insurance ranging from life, disability, or professional liability insurance.

4. Failure to monitor your credit reports

Tim Baker recommends checking your credit reports twice a year – he pulls his reports with the changing of the clocks for daylight savings. With the increase in the digital nature of personal information, it is critical to monitor your credit for errors and identity theft.

5. Not investing or not having the right attitude when it comes to investing

Being risk-averse may impact your long-term financial plan. Building and maintaining an appropriate asset allocation that matches your goals, risk tolerance, and time horizon while avoiding impulse purchases or hunches is a more intelligent way to positive investment returns.

6. Not utilizing professional advice

Financial professionals know what they are doing, and hiring someone allows you to have more free time to do the things you want to do.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, welcome back to the show.

Tim Baker: Hey, Tim, thanks. Thanks for having me back. It’s been awhile.

Tim Ulbrich: What’s new and exciting from YFP Planning’s perspective?

Tim Baker: It feels like a lot, Tim. I feel like this year is full of change and we’re excited. A lot of things going on in the background. We’ve had our lead planners out in Columbus to do some planning. It was good to kind of meet up and now that people are getting vaccinated, to be able to meet up and do some planning and talk about our goals. And that was exciting to kind of show the new office, which people may or may not know that YFP has bought headquarters in Columbus. And we’re in the process of kind of renovating a little bit and getting that ready for us to move here in — move in here shortly. And that’s been exciting and having to deal with contractors, maybe not as exciting. I think the team has continued to expand. We finish up tax season here, which is always hair on fire, and we had a lot of good help to go through that. But we actually welcomed back a former team member, now current member again, Christina Slavonik, who worked with me a year or so ago and decided to kind of come back into the fold. And we’re super excited to have her as part of the team. And yeah, so lots of changes, but all good things I think.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, certainly excited to have Christina back, what that means for our team. Pumped up about the new office and it’s an open invitation to any of the community that’s in Columbus or finds their way traveling through Columbus, we’d love to host you and have a chance to meet up with you. Please reach out to us. And a shoutout, as you mentioned, Tim, to our tax team. I mean, over 250 returns that we filed this year, lots of wrenches that were thrown their way with extensions and delays in state extensions and legislative pieces that were being passed in the middle of tax season. And I thought they handled it well, and we’re ultimately able to serve the community, and we very much believe tax is an important part of the financial plan. So excited to see that continuing to grow. So today, we’re talking all about common financial errors. And you and I know that financial errors seem inevitable. We’re all human; we all make mistakes. And one of our goals with YFP is to help you, the YFP community, and certainly our clients as well, to avoid as many financial mistakes as possible. And certainly we have lots of resources that are here to help in this, whether it be this podcast, blog posts, checklists, calculators, and certainly our one-on-one comprehensive financial planning services as well. And just to be clear, this is not about shaming by any means. This is about learning and hopefully avoiding a repeat of making the same mistakes. So if you’ve already made some of these mistakes, certainly Tim and I have. We often talk about these between the two of us. We’ll that here again today. So if you’ve made some of these mistakes, certainly this is not about beating yourself up. Take what you’ve learned and certainly apply that information, and hopefully that can help with avoiding future mishaps or help you to spread the word and encourage and teach others along the way as well. So Tim, let’s get to it. We’re going to warm up with what many consider low-hanging fruit. No. 1 financial error/mistake I’m going to list here is not taking advantage of the employer match. So talk to us about the employer match and why not taking advantage of it is a significant financial error.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think this is where often we say, it’s free money. So not often do you ever come across a situation where there’s money to be had, you know, without anything in return. So I think in a lot of cases — and I know there’s some gurus out there that say like if you’re in debt, you shouldn’t even do this, and I would probably disagree with that. I think there are some exceptions if you have lots of high interest like credit card debt, consumer debt, then this might be a situation where you don’t want to get the match. But I would say for the most part, if your employer has a 401k or a 403b match or whatever that is, you want to make sure that you are taking full advantage of that. Most employers are going to have matches that are going to incentivize you to put anywhere between 2-6% to get the full match. There are some that are designed to push you a little bit further. But for the most part, if you’re in that sweet spot of putting in 2-6% of your income into a 401k to get a full match, I would say to do that. The reason that you want to do this is because if you can get that dollar, those dollars deferred and into that retirement account, this all goes back to the concept of time in the market versus time in the market. And really taking advantage of more compounding periods to take advantage of the compound interest. So if you’re out there and you have — you’re looking at your student debt or if you have sizable consumer debt and you’re like, man, I just feel like I put money in and it stays the same, that’s compounding interest kind of taking advantage of you. And what we want to do is flip the script a bit and get that to where your money is making money. So Albert Einstein has said, “Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it, earns it. He who doesn’t, pays it.” So the idea here is that you can get your money to work in the investment world and keep it working and allow those dollars to make baby dollars and they make baby dollars. That’s the idea here. So it’s really about time in the market. We see this as less and less of an issue now that I think it was the Obama administration, you know, has really pushed 401k plans to have an auto-enroll feature. So based on studies on this, if we are the variable that gets in the way, meaning people, that we typically are going to go with whatever is the default. So if the default is not to enroll and you have to actually take steps to do that yourself, we’re not going to do that. If the default is that we’re already auto-enrolled, then that’s what we’re going to do. So a lot of these plans — and Tim, our plan has this — is that after a certain period of time, we auto-enroll participants and we say, “OK, we’re going to auto-enroll them at x%.” For ours right now and for — speaking of the YFP 401k — we auto-enroll at 3%. The maximum match is if they put 4% in. So they would just have to go in and make that determination that they would like to do that. So auto-enroll features on 401k’s have made this a little bit less of a common mistake, but they’re still there, nonetheless, and we still come across more than you would think of those that are not putting in at least to get to the company match. And just to kind of put a bow on this, think of this in this light: You know, if you’re a pharmacist and we use round numbers here — if you’re a pharmacist and you’re making $100,000 and your company offers you a 3% match, think of that — and you’re not taking advantage of that right now, think of this as like a 3% raise where you are making $103,000 because $3,000 of that is going into your company 401k. And it’s surprising, you know, I think if you — dependent on the 401k — and I know we’re going to talk about the fees in an upcoming episode — but dependent on the 401k, it’s surprising how quickly those types of accounts can grow if you are deferring dollars out of your paycheck so you’re hopefully not missing it too much, it invested in the right way, and it’s not being eaten away by fees. It’s surprising how quickly those accounts can grow. This is a big, big miss if you’re not necessarily taking advantage of a match.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff, Tim. And I think just to further highlight time value of money, and I think for those that are listening that are especially getting started on the employer contribution side and perhaps aren’t leaning into that match yet, there is some trust in the momentum in compound interest, right? You can run the calculations, see the numbers, but it does feel like early on that you’re putting money in and you’re not seeing that growth until obviously those funds get to a certain balance and then you start to see the momentum of the growth on the growth. But to take your example, Tim, of somebody making $100,000, 3% employer match, $3,000, I would encourage folks to also think about it’s not just that $3,000. It’s what would that $3,000 be worth in 25 or 30 years? Right? So you know, that $3,000, if that were to grow at let’s say 7% average annual rate of return over 25 years, that $3,000 in 25 years is worth more than $16,000. So time value of money is not just what does it mean in today’s dollars, but what would it also mean in the opportunity cost of not investing those dollars? So that’s No. 1, not taking advantage of the employer match. No. 2 is no budget, no financial plan. Harsh words, Tim Baker. What do you mean by that? And you know, budgeting, spending plan, whatever we want to call it, why is it so critical to the financial plan?

Tim Baker: And some people would disagree with this. But I guess some people, especially if they might lend credence to like, you know, if you’re starting out, if you’re a new practitioner, definitely budget. If you get to a certain inflection point, you don’t need to budget. I would disagree in a sense. If you think about this in terms of like if you think about your household and the salaries you make as like revenue, if you’re a household and you’re making $200,000-250,000 as a household and you equate that to like a business and a business making that revenue, businesses are going to have budgets, they’re going to have projections, they’re going to bucket money for certain — just like we do, Tim, at YFP. You know, we have ‘this is the amount of money we want to spend on marketing, and this is the amount of money that we want to spend here and there.’ Like that’s a budget. And I would say that if you treat your household as a company, like you’re going to earmark those for different purposes. So I think this is a way of how you go about and do that. So I think where budgeting kind of gets a bad rep is the $0-based budget where every dollar has a job and you basically assign a purpose for every dollar that kind of flows through the household. And for some people, that can be super arduous, that can be super over-the-top. But I don’t necessarily think it’s an exercise that doesn’t have merit or value. But I think typically as you go, you find the flavor of ice cream that works for you. So there’s lots of different types of budgets out there. You know, you have the $0-based. I’ve seen a line item budget, I’ve seen a pay yourself first budget. There’s a lot of different ways to go about it. I think at the end of the day, a budget goes back to what is the intention of the resources that you have.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Tim Baker: And applying that to — and by intention, we typically mean like goals. So what are the goals that you have? What are you intentionally trying to achieve with the six figures of income that you’re earning? And how do we go about that? So the budget is typically the structure or the steps to go from ‘Hey, I want to travel,’ or ‘I want to be able to give back,’ or ‘I want to be able to take care of an aging parent.’ The budget is typically the mechanism that allows that to kind of come to be. So I would say that this is typically lockstep with the savings plan. Most financial planners, in my opinion, they’ll say, “OK, your savings plan is your emergency fund, and that’s it. So you need to have $20,000 in your emergency fund as an example or $30,000 in an emergency fund,” and then it stops there. I think it needs to go further. So I think your budget and how you’re spending needs to kind of be in sync with how you’re deliberately saving for different things that are basically on the docket for goals. So — and I wouldn’t even call this a step, Tim. It’s a process. I’m a big Sixers fan, trust the process. Hopefully JoJo is going to come back —

Tim Ulbrich: I was going to say…

Tim Baker: No, but it’s a process. And I think what people do and where they get hung up on budgeting is that it’s more about striving for improvement and not perfection.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that’s right.

Tim Baker: We want everything to be balanced, we want everything to kind of line up. And in most cases, that’s not going to happen. So depending on the budget and what flavor that suits you best is going to really allow you to kind of figure out how it works. So to me, this is really about being more intentional with spending, being more intentional with kind of top-line revenue. So this is not just an effort in kind of an exercise in scarcity of like, hey, this is what the pie is. I want to challenge you to grow the pie. So to me, it’s looking at both sides of that equation and really striving for improvement of what you’re trying to accomplish and not perfection. So I think that if you can kind of wrap your arms around that and not be wed to one way of doing things, then I think you’re going to see improvement. So and there’s lots of different tools out there, technologies, Mint, YNAB, some people use good old-fashioned spreadsheets, some people use envelopes, like physical envelopes to do this. At the end of the day, you know, I think the question you should be asking is, am I intentional with how I’m spending? Am I intentional with how I’m bringing money into the household? And does this align with the goals that I have set out for myself. And if it doesn’t, then I think that’s where you kind of need a little bit of a gut check to make sure that you’re on track.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, intentionality really stands out there to me, Tim, whether someone’s listening and they’ve got a net worth of -$400,000 or a net worth of $4 million. The process may look different, the intensity of the month-to-month might look very different, but at the end of the day, like budgeting, whatever you want to call it, to your point about looking at it from the point of a business, it’s about what are the goals, what are we trying to achieve, and then what’s the plan to make sure that that’s a reality. And the buckets might look bigger or smaller, the process might look more or less intense. But it’s about being intentional with the goals and the plan. For those that are looking for a starting point, a template, a process, you can go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/budget. We do have a spreadsheet that you can get started with, certainly not necessarily the ending point. You can implement technology tools and evolve it from there, but that can be a good starting point. So that’s No. 2, no budget, no financial plan. No. 3 is no or inadequate insurance. I’ve mentioned before, Tim, on this podcast that insurance I think is an often overlooked part of the financial plan for obvious reasons. Thinking about something like a death or a disability or a professional liability claim isn’t necessarily the most exciting thing to think about when it comes to financial planning, especially when we can think about things like investing or saving for the future or getting rid of that student loan debt. So tell us here about what you see as some of the common pitfalls around inadequate insurance coverage.

Tim Baker: I think what a lot of people default to, a lot of pharmacists default to, is that what their employer provides as part of their compensation package is the plan for their insurance. And it’s not. It’s typically — we view it as a benefit that should be taken into consideration as we’re building out an insurance plan for your financial plan. And we’re really talking about the protection here, so like what we talk about with our YFP planning clients is how are we helping them growing and protecting — so protecting being the operative word in this step — their income and growing and protecting their net worth while keeping their goals in mind? So protection here is what we’re talking about. And typically, you know, what we focus on is things like life, disability, and professional liability. So your employer might provide you different coverages based on the employer. And that’s going to mean different things to different people, depending on their life situation. But oftentimes with pharmacists, you need to take more action in this or you run the risk of exposing yourself to a loss that could potentially be catastrophic. So you know, health insurance — so I would say that the one thing that is a plan and not necessarily a perk is health insurance. So health insurance, you’re typically best to go with the group policy, although that could change in the future. That could change where the way that employer compensation packages are designed in our country is that if the government isn’t providing that, it’s health insurance the employer does. That could change in the future, and we’ve seen that with things like pensions and 401k’s where pensions have gone away and they’ve been more robust, and a lot of it put the onus back on the employee for saving for retirement. So that could change in the future. But if we break down the insurance piece, a big miss is if we say not having adequate insurance is knowing what to have, knowing what you think that you need from particularly a life and disability insurance policy. You know, I typically say with regard to life insurance — and another piece of the protection of the financial plan is estate insurance — is that typically when you have a spouse, a house, and mouths to feed, those are typically going to be the opportunities to make sure that you are protected from a life insurance perspective and from an estate planning perspective. So more often than not, pharmacists are going to need a lot more of a benefit than what their employer can provide. So that’s typically where you want to go out into the individual policy world and make sure that you are fully protected. That’s one of the problems in the financial services industry too is like we come across a lot of pharmacists, Tim, that they might be 27 or 28 and they’ve been sold a crappy insurance policy, life insurance policy, that they don’t need, right? Because they don’t have a mortgage, they don’t have other dependents relying on them, their loans are going to be forgiven upon death or disability, so it’s just a policy that they probably don’t need right now. So it’s kind of like you have a hammer and you see a nail and it was a good cookie-cutter solution for everyone. One of the mistakes here is not understanding the need. So like we’ll have clients that will come in that will have young kids and things like insurance are not even brought up. And I look at that and I’m like, that’s a big risk. Like the student loans are important, and you’re talking about real estate investing and some other things, but like we probably need to address this first. So — and it’s typical, right? We don’t want to — we typically think that it’s not going to happen to us, a premature death or disability. So it’s very natural. So that’s part of the planner’s job is to kind of bring that to the forefront and make the proper recommendations. The other thing we’ve been talking about is disability insurance. So these are typically more likely to happen and typically more expensive because you typically have medical bills that are going to pile up as a result of a disability. So having the proper insurance there, whether that is through your employer or your own policy or buying a supplemental policy to kind of make you not whole but make you to — indemnify you to a certain threshold that you feel like you can continue the household, that’s a big thing. And a lot of these policies, the way that they’re written don’t provide a lot of protection. So it’s really looking at does it make sense to add a policy for yourself? So the idea here is that the sooner, the better. Whether it’s life, disability, the younger that you can get these policies in place, typically the better from a cost perspective. A lot of the policies that you have through your employer, the group policies, they’re not portable. Or if they are, they’re not great compared to the individual policies. So I think if you can have these separate from the employer, it makes a lot of sense with regard to protecting your financial plan.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think you’ve covered a lot here, and there’s just a lot to think through. And we’ve only talked through very briefly three different areas. You mentioned professional liability, life, disability. But questions of like, what do you need? What do you not need? Based on what you do need, how do you shop for those, looking for policies that — and getting advice that really has your best interests in mind to make sure you’re not underinsured or overinsured? What does your employer offer? What do they not offer? What’s the gap? What are the tax implications? So important part of the plan. I think our planning team does an awesome job of weaving this in and for folks to consider, are they underinsured? Do they have adequate insurance or not? And how does that fit in with the rest of their financial goals and plans? So that’s No. 3, no or inadequate insurance. No. 4, Tim, failure to monitor credit reports. Wow. When I think of checking a credit report, I think of boring, No. 1. No. 2 is necessary, right? So you know, why is this such an important step? How often should one be doing it? And why do they need to monitor credit reports over time?

Tim Baker: Yeah, and I would definitely chalk this up to like to stage of life. So you know, if you’re more Gen X or Baby Boomer, this might not be as important because you might not be making the big decisions, although you could be sending kids to college, there might be some loans that you’re taking out. But I would say that if you’re — a lot of the clients that we work with, you know, especially as they’re starting their careers, there’s a lot of decisions that are being made that credit granting is on the table. So that’s like home purchase, car purchase, things like that. Naturally, because of age of credit, your credit is going to become stronger and stronger as you go because that’s the way that the factors that kind of go into your credit score, age of credit is a big one. But I think the big thing that is kind of universal here that is becoming more and more of a thing is just the identity theft stuff. So as our lives become more and more digital and there’s more exposure to theft, it’s kind of this cat-and-mouse game. It’s not really a question of if, it’s really when. Having kind of eyes on this is really important. So I like to typically recommend that we check credit at least twice per year. So I kind of do it when the clocks change, so when we spring forward and fall back. I myself have gone through this exercise. I’ve found large enough mistakes on my credit report that drastically changed my credit score. And this is even — like when I first started advising clients on credit, this was before the days of like banks learning kind of suspicious behavior. A lot of these banks, a lot of these institutions, they’ve come a long way to alert you and kind of give you some structural things to look at, you know, if you have expenses that are out-of-state or whatever. Even in that environment, there were some things that were from my credit report that should not have been there, that drastically changed my score. So typically, you see differences in scores because you have different formulas that every Equifax, Experian, Transunion are using to calculate your score. Different creditors are going to report differently. So if you buy a Toyota, they might be really good about reporting to Equifax but not Transunion for some reason. Or Mastercard is really good, but this other company isn’t. So you’re going to have different inputs. And really, that’s going to be the big factor that will see why your scores are different. But I think the big thing for all those that are out there listening to this is going to just be from an identity theft. And I’ve looked at client credit reports, and I’ve made comments about hey, these are things that we can do to improve this or these are different factors to consider, but I can’t look at a credit report and know that hey, this doesn’t belong there. So it’s really kind of home cooking that is really important here. So the Fact Act that was enacted I think in 2003 allows you to access your credit report for free one time per year from each of the three reporting agencies for free. So you go to annualcreditreport.com. It sounds fake, it sounds kind of hokey, but that’s the way to — the site that you want to go to is annualcreditreport.com, and pull your credit score from each of the reporting agencies. I would just kind of rotate them through and take a glance at it, see if there’s anything fishy or — and then you can always dispute things that are inaccurate, and it’s pretty easy to do that on the website there. So that would be a big thing that I would make sure that you want to build into your practice.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I think to your point, this is a good maintenance part of the financial plan, right? It’s like periodic oil changes, like we’ve got to be doing this. I like your rhythm of when the clocks change, twice per year, again, annualcreditreport.com. We talk about tax being a thread of the financial plan, credit is a financial — is a thread of the financial plan, impacts so many different areas, whether that would be home buying, real estate investing, business purchases, you mentioned identity theft, so something we’ve got to stay on top of. We did an episode, Episode 162, where we talked all about credit, importance of credit, improving your credit, understanding your credit score, credit security practices, so I’d encourage you to check that out. Again, Episode 162. Tim, No. 5 here on our list of common financial errors is not investing or improper attitude towards investing. Now, I think we’ve talked a little bit about not investing when we talked about not taking advantage of the employer match. So obviously time value of money, compound interest, we’ve got to be in the market. Talk to us more about the improper attitude towards investing. What do you mean there?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think there’s like two extremes here when I would say that typically doesn’t necessarily align, which I think with what I think is a healthy investment portfolio. So one is not wanting to dip your toes into the market. So I kind of hear like, ‘Oh, I don’t want to take risks. I don’t want to lose any money.’ And I think for us to kind of stay in front of things like the inflation monster, like taxes, you can’t just stuff your mattress full of dollars and hope to one day be able to retire comfortably. You know, so it’s kind of like if you want to make an omelet, you’ve got to crack some eggs. So the idea here is that we need to build out a portfolio that takes risk intelligently but that is over the course of your career in line with what you’re trying to achieve. And most people, you know, if you’re in your 20s, 30s, 40s, and maybe even 50s, they typically are more heavily weighted in bonds than they need to be, in my opinion. So you know, a lot of people when the market crashed at the beginning of the pandemic, they’re like, oh my goodness, Tim, like I want to take my investment ball and go home, meaning like I want to get out of this investment. And the idea is no, like let’s keep going. Either let’s put more money in or let’s hold the course. So you want to do exactly what the opposite of how you feel. So you know, the big drivers in your ability to build wealth over time from an investment perspective is that you have the appropriate asset allocation, so the mix between stocks and bonds, and really driving your fees as low as possible with regard to the investments. In a lot of cases, when we look at our clients, there’s a lot of opportunity for improvement there. And one of the things we talk about in webinars and even in our presentation with clients is that you look at all the variables in investing, and we have conservative — we talk about Conservative Jane. So Conservative Jane makes $120,000, she gets 3% cost of living raises, she works for 30 years, but she doesn’t invest the dollars. She basically keeps them in cash or like a Money Market. At the end of that time period, she has $600,000. But then we look at Aggressive Jane, who does the exact same thing except the only thing that she changes — and I think the big thing is she puts 10% into her 401k — the only thing that Aggressive Jane does differently than Conservative Jane is that she trusts the market in the long run. So the market returns about 10% year over year, and we adjust it down for inflation to about 6.87%. And Aggressive Jane is not saving harder, she’s not working longer, she’s not making more money, she’s just trusting in the market over that amount of time, and the swing is about — I think it’s $1.2 million. So Aggressive Jane at the end of those 30 years will have $1.8 million. So that’s very impactful if you can internalize that and bake that into your investment strategy is really trust the market. Over long periods of time, it’s very predictable. The only other thing I think I’ll say about this is the other side of that is that people have maybe unrealistic expectations of their investments. So they think that if they invest a certain way for four or five years that they’re going to have this portfolio that it can live off the interest. That’s not the case, you know. And I think that there is a lot of speculation and things like that where you’re heavily invested maybe in crypto or these certain stock that can get you into trouble. And I typically say that it’s not that there’s no room for that, it’s that the overwhelming majority of your investments should be super boring and bland and not exciting at all. And typically the more exciting that the investments are, the worse it is for you, the investor. Keep that in mind as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, I would argue — and you probably see this with clients and our planning team does as well — I’m not sure there’s a harder time than right now to trust the market over a long period of time and stay the course. You know, you mentioned that a good long-term investing plan — I’ve heard you say before — should be as boring as watching paint dry, right?

Tim Baker: Mhmm.

Tim Ulbrich: And I have that head knowledge, like I agree with that and I suspect many of our listeners do as well, but pick up any news cycle for 24 hours, right? I mean, whether it’s — and I’m not saying any one of these alone, to your point, is necessarily a bad thing or that folks shouldn’t be doing them — but whether it’s news around crypto or NFTs or ESGs or think of what happened with GameStop and Robinhood and others, like and I think it really challenges like the philosophy and you really have to be disciplined in like tuning out the noise for long-term investing strategies. Now again, I want to highlight, I’m not saying any of those things doesn’t necessarily have value or doesn’t have a place in one’s plan, but if the vast majority of an investing plan should be boring and should be over a long period of time, we’re trusting the market, it’s hard right now. I mean, it’s hard. Are you feeling that pressure not only individually but I sense from clients you’re probably seeing some of that as well.

Tim Baker: I kind of don’t listen to it. I don’t really read much — I mean, I try to read into it just to have an understanding of what’s going on, but I guess for me, I don’t feel the pull like I used to back in the day. One, because it’s a very humbling experience, and sometimes my clients haven’t been humbled. But like I kind of equate this, Tim, to kind of go a little bit off topic here, it’s like have you ever been around someone that’s like, man, the world is going to heck, this generation, whatever. And I think back on like well, what did they say about like the hippie, like free love? I feel like it’s always — like they probably were saying that about the dot-coms when before that, so there’s probably always been things like that that have tempted people to kind of go awry. And maybe cryptocurrency is a thing that does ultimately shatter our traditional way of looking at money and investments and things like that. I don’t know. I mean, I think that it’s really too soon to tell on that. But yeah, I mean, I think so. I mean, I think it is tough. I think if you’ve been humbled enough, it can be a little bit easier to drown it out. But to me, I think of this as like singles and doubles, singles and doubles, to use the baseball analogy is that if you’re going up at every at-bat and you’re trying to hit the cover off the ball, you’re going to strike out a lot. And you might hit a few home runs, but we’re really looking at consistency. And if I know that there is this — the S&P 500 returns this, and it’s never been, we’ve never had a rolling 20-year period that’s been negative, even through the Great Depression, I’m going to bank on that unless told otherwise. So like, that can be hard for people to hear because they think of investments and they think sexy and exciting and things like that, but that’s not what I think a healthy investment plan makes. I think you want to keep the speculation low. And I’m not saying that that’s not — I still from time to time will go to a casino and play Blackjack or play poker. I still gamble just because I don’t do it as much as I did when I was younger, but just because I’m out and I’m with friends or I’m doing whatever. But if that’s the bulk of what your plan is to get to financial freedom, so to speak, I would caution you.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: And it could work. I mean, it could work. You could put all your proverbial eggs in the Amazon bucket and be completely OK, but you know, the way that people view Amazon — maybe not now but you know, 5-10 years ago, was very similar to how they viewed Sears back in the ‘70s, ‘80s, and ‘90s.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Tim Baker: And that company was this behemoth and they sold everything and would never go away. And then all of a sudden, it’s not a viable company anymore. So — and I can say this, I used to work for Sears back in the day, so I can say that not everything lasts. But I think that the U.S. stock market has been very predictable over the long run.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s a great example, Tim. We might be dating ourselves a little bit, but you think of — I can remember when it was the lesser known at the time Walmart and Amazon entering into the KMart and Sears world. It’s hard to even think of that in today’s day and age. I think your point about being humbled is a really interesting one. You know, we’re talking about common financial errors. So I’ll throw one out here. 2008, I was humbled by thinking I could pick individual stocks. Thankfully, I didn’t invest a whole lot of money. Circuit City, how did that work out? Right? So you know, I think your point about being humbled and again, there may be a portion of the portfolio where this makes sense for many folks, especially if they want to scratch that itch. The other thing you mentioned here, which I want to highlight we’re going to come back to next week is you mentioned fees. And we’re going to talk next week about how important it is to really understand the fees of your investment portfolio and really understand the impact that those fees can be having on your long-term returns and the importance of holding on to as much of your investment pie as possible. So stay tuned with us next week as we talk about fees. Tim, I want to transition into our sixth and final error, which is not using professional advice, not having a coach in your corner when it comes to the financial plan. And I think this is a good segue to what I just mentioned of this day and age, there’s a lot of noise. And so having somebody who’s keeping you accountable, who’s really reflecting back to you what you said were important and the goals, helping you look across the financial plan and really helping to direct you towards those end goals that you had articulated and to keep you on the path when human behavior may suggest that we want to go off the path from time to time. So obviously we’re biased, full disclaimer, we wholeheartedly believe in the value of a financial planner, otherwise we wouldn’t be doing it. So Tim, tell us why you think this is such an important part of the plan and why it’s perhaps a mistake if folks leave out a coach from their plan.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think if we look at it like our mission of empowering pharmacists to achieve financial freedom, I think we both agree that in a one-on-one engagement with a fiduciary, a fee-only planner, is the shortcut to that. And I think we’ve seen that a lot with our clients where we see kind of the before picture and the after picture, and those are typically because of I think that relationship that a planner has with a client and the way that is forcing them to think differently, right? So like I often joke that I’m a financial planner, but I need a financial planner because I need someone to — a third party to objectively look at our financial plan and say like, am I insane? Or are we nuts? Or are we on track? Right? So I like I know the technical piece of it, like I know what it is to be a CFP and what — just like you’re a pharmacist and you need to know the technical piece of it or a doctor, they’re still going to go to like other health providers to kind of provide that insight and those opinions. But so I think the third party is a big thing. I think the other thing that we don’t necessarily trade on that much is, you know, like for a lot of people, when’s the last time you actually sat down and talked about goals with yourself or like with a partner? So like, you know, I kind of equate this to like I’ve been in periods of my life, Tim, where you are so — I don’t want to say like zoned out but like you ever get into your car and you’re going to work, and it’s 6 o’clock in the morning or whenever you go into your work, and you drive that 30-minute commute, and then you get to work and you don’t even remember any of that drive. It’s just —

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right. Yep.

Tim Baker: You’re on like autopilot. I think that the danger of not utilizing a professional in some regard is that you get into that where you like wake up 10 years from now or 20 years from now and you’re like, what the heck did I actually do? Or like is this a wealthy life for me? And you’re not having those critical conversations with yourself or out loud, which I think can be so powerful. So where are we going? Are we sure that’s where we want to go? Is this insane? And having that kind of, again, objective third party to make sure that we’re outlining goals and we’re being held accountable to that. And then I think the other thing that like is really important is that guidance, is that knowledge, is that technical expertise with best interests in mind. So to me, like if you’re talking to a financial planner, the two things that I think need to be there and if they’re not I’m going the other way is are you a CFP? So unlike a PharmD or JD or MD, like this is a designation that there’s an ethics requirement, there’s an experience requirement, there’s an education requirement that most financial advisors don’t need to kind of do what they’re doing. So like the barrier to entry to become a financial planner is very low. So you want to make sure that the CFP designation is there. And I think the other thing is are you a fiduciary? Are you going to act in my best interests? Or can you put your interests, meaning the planner’s interests, ahead of mine? And what most people don’t know is that 95% of advisors out there are not fiduciaries. And typically if you know the names of those types of firms, they’re not fiduciaries, meaning that they can put their own client — put their own interests ahead of their client’s. So you know, I think that the technical expertise and that is, those are just table stakes. Like I think that that’s going to come with the territory. It’s really I think overlying the human element and to me, I think what we try to do from a planning perspective is make sure that we’re taking care of clients today, say in 2021, but we’re also taking care of clients in 10, 20, 30 years from now and their future self and really threading the needle between taking care of what’s going on today and then that future version of yourself. And I feel like if you don’t feel like that push and pull, if you’re always saving or if you’re always spending, that can lead to some problems. And I think that having that objective third party to kind of guide and hold you accountable, give you some tough love, give you some encouragement, give you some idea of where you’re at compared to peers, for example, I think that’s vitally important.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and Tim, what you said about the human element just really resonates with me and I think will with our community as well. I mean, I think we often may have a perception of financial planners or advisors, whether that’s from movies or books we’ve read or parents that have worked with an advisor, whatever it be, but we tend to think I think of more of that tactical type of moves that folks are making, right, whether that’s certain investing decisions and insurance decisions, maybe it’s Roth conversions, things like that, tax decisions, etc. All of those are important and to your point, that’s table stakes in terms of an expertise that they’re going to provide. You want that knowledge, experience, and expertise. But it’s the human element. I think so much of the value you’ve provided to Jess and I has been in the conversations that have been initiated and the constant revisiting of what are our goals? What did we say was important, and are we actually living the wealthy life that we said we wanted to live? And the answer to that is not always yes, but we need that compass that we’re moving towards and we need that reminder, we need some accountability, we need a coach to make sure as life is racing by that we’re ultimately stopping, pausing, and getting back on the direction that we said was so important. So for those that are listening to this, if that is resonating with you, we’d love to have an opportunity to talk with you to see if what we offer from a financial planning standpoint is a good fit for you. You can go to YFPPlanning.com, you can schedule a free discovery call. Again, YFPPlanning.com. Tim or I would love to have a chance to talk with you further. Tim, great stuff. We’ve covered six common financial errors, and as always, we appreciate the community listening in to this podcast. If you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the podcast, please do us a favor and leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show. That will help other pharmacists be able to find this show as well. Thank you so much for joining, and we look forward to this episode next week. Have a great rest of your day.

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YFP 204: The Current State of Buying, Selling, and Refinancing a Home

Posted on May 20, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

The Current State of Buying, Selling, and Refinancing a Home

On this episode, sponsored by IBERIABANK/First Horizon, Tony Umholtz, a mortgage manager for IBERIABANK/First Horizon, discusses trends in the housing market coming out of the COVID-19 pandemic and the current landscape for those purchasing, refinancing, or selling a home.

About Today’s Guest

Tony graduated Cum Laude from the University of South Florida with a B.S. in Finance from the Muma College of Business. He then went on to complete his MBA. While at USF, Tony was part of the inaugural football team in 1997. He earned both Academic and AP All-American Honors during his collegiate career. After college, Tony had the opportunity to sign contracts with several NFL teams including the Tennessee Titans, New York Giants and the New England Patriots. Being active in the community is also important to Tony. He has served or serves as a board member for several charitable and non-profit organizations including board member for the Salvation Army, FCA Tampa Bay and the USF National Alumni Association. Having orchestrated over $1.1 billion in lending volume during his career, Tony has consistently been ranked as one of the top mortgage loan officers in the industry by the Scotsman’s Guide, Mortgage Executive magazine and Mortgage Originator magazine.

Summary

On this episode, Tim Ulbrich welcomes Tony Umholtz back to the show to discuss housing conditions in a post-pandemic world. While there may have been significant economic turmoil related to the COVID-19 pandemic, real estate continues to boom. Tony explains some possible motivations for such an active market include work and school being remote in many cases, those in apartments feeling cramped and seeking more space, and others still who have sought to purchase second homes in less populated areas.

Tony addresses some fears about a potential future housing bubble, explains some differences between buyers in the previous housing booms with current buyers, and differentiates the present home buying process, from the practices of the housing boom and conditions that led, in part, to the Great Recession of 2008.

With post-pandemic life offering more flexibility than ever before, Tony explains how that mobility is reflected in the housing market. He makes some predictions about the future of the real estate market and interest rates, shares insight regarding new generations aging up and into the housing market, and provides considerations for those who may be first-time homebuyers, contemplating making a home purchase in the present market.

Lastly, Tony explains the details of the Pharmacist Home Loan offered through IBERIABANK/First Horizon.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tony, welcome back to the show.

Tony Umholtz: Tim, thanks for having me. Good to be back.

Tim Ulbrich: Excited to have you back on the show. You’re a frequent guest I think at this point, and we’re going to link in our show notes to previous episodes in which you’ve been on talking about buying homes, selling homes, what this means from a lending standpoint, options, what’s the professional home loan, and we’ll dig into some of that here today as well. But for those that maybe didn’t catch you on a previous episode, give us some quick background and your current role with IBERIABANK/First Horizon.

Tony Umholtz: Sure, sure. Well, I’ve been in the business a long time now. I hate to say this, but it’s been almost 20 years in the mortgage banking business. And I have been just focused on residential lending has been my focus and have been with IBERIABANK for about 3.5 years. We recently did a merger with First Horizon, so hence the slash. But it will be a full combination by the fall. But it’s been a great company and we’ve been very excited.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and excited for the collaboration here. And we’re going to talk as we get towards the end of the episode about the pharmacist home loan product as I suspect many of our listeners if they’re not already aware, that may be something that’s a good fit for them. But we’re going to spend most of our time today talking about really an interesting topic, and that is housing considerations in a post-pandemic world. I mean, it’s really been a strange year. And although there has been some significant economic turmoil related to the COVID-19 pandemic, certainly what that has meant for jobs that have been lost, the real estate market is continuing to boom. I think we’ve all probably heard stories, maybe some are dealing with it firsthand — I’ve talked with a colleague, a friend, a family member — it’s a wild market out there, Tony. So despite the challenges we’ve had economically related to COVID-19, what’s happening as we’re seeing this, really this significant real estate boom that’s going on across the country?

Tony Umholtz: Well, it’s a very interesting dynamic. And COVID-19 changed everything. But the real estate market has been a big winner. And the interesting part of all this is it’s — there’s been some long-term changes in demographics and even just housing in general, housing construction that just came to a point last year. And one of those things that we’re seeing here, Tim, is we were behind — our decade of new constructed homes, the past decade was the lowest it’s been since the ‘60s. Right? So the inventory created was nowhere near to meet the demand. And that’s one of the reasons we are where we are right now. And of course with COVID last year and so many supply chains being affected, employment being affected, you know, the raw materials, lumber, other materials needed to build homes, there’s less supply. So that’s just caused this challenge here, but it’s a good time — not every housing market is perfect, but the majority of housing markets in our country are thriving right now.

Tim Ulbrich: So Tony, you mentioned one thing in terms of the new home construction, some of the raw materials with lumber contributing to some of the issues we see, really simple supply and demand that I think is leading to a lot of the stories I know I’ve heard of bidding wars and offers that are well above asking and appraisal waivers and other things we’ll get to here in a moment. But what else? You know, I think of — is there some pent-up demand here of we had a housing market that last year if we think about the timing of COVID, you know, March of 2020, that really typically is kind of the beginning of the boom of the home buying season, obviously the pandemic might have tampered with some of that or perhaps people not picking up and moving that might have been going to other jobs or more people working from home and they want more space and so they’re looking to maybe get out of the city or move into the suburbs. What are some of these other factors beyond the construction, beyond the raw materials, that really has got us into this supply-and-demand position that we’re in right now?

Tony Umholtz: Well Tim, you mentioned a few things. And one of those is people moving to the suburbs. We’ve seen a big exodus from some of the big cities. I think one of the housing markets I could say that’s underpriced probably right now is New York City, right? There’s been a lot of — comparatively, there’s been a lot of exodus out of New York City, San Francisco and New York City, some of the bigger cities because people can work from home. A lot of people can. Not everyone can, but a lot of people can, and I think that’s changed a lot of things for a lot of people. The other thing too that I’ve seen is just when I mentioned demographics, the shifts, just the millennials, right? And even Generation Y, they’re starting to get into the housing market more and more, and they’re looking and saying, “Hey, I’m paying $2,000 in rent. I could own a house for this.” I think it’s starting a realization that you can own a home and have your own home. I’ve just seen a huge increase in first-time home buyers as well. I think that’s another big shift with this large group of our population moving up and aging. And then just low interest rates, right? I mean, you have the Fed being very supportive — our Federal Reserve is being very supportive and accommodative to help the economy get through this very, very difficult time. And the housing market’s been a winner. And anytime you have low barring costs, usually it leads to expansion in the real estate market. So that’s the multiple reasons why. And then you put on top of that a limited supply of homes, and that’s why we are where we are in many markets.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I’d like for a moment — you mentioned one factor, Tony, obviously interest rates, I’ve seen some numbers out there before that on average, you know, if you see a certain drop in basis points or certain percentage reduction in rates, that has obviously an impact on the demand, among other factors, of course. Rates aren’t the only thing. But tell us more about what we’ve been seeing really over the past year. I remember you and I talked about this back in March of 2020, here we are in April of 2021, you know, what have we seen in terms of rates, whether it’s first-time home buyers, those that are refinancing? And then not expecting you to be able to crystal ball this, but where might we see some of the trend of this going forward as I think it might have an impact for folks that are thinking about something like a refinance, you know? Does it make sense now? Or does it make sense that I kind of sit and hold and wait for the future?

Tony Umholtz: That’s a great question, Tim. It’s hard for me to pinpoint exactly. I can tell you trends that I’m seeing right now. You know, clearly we had unprecedented stimulus last year to help rates go to those levels. The Fed is still accommodative. And rates are still very, very good. Purchase money, meaning loans for purchasing a home, are going to be lower than refinancing. There is typically an adjustment — and it’s really a trickle-down effect from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac on refinances. So there’s a slightly higher rate for refinancing versus a purchase money loan. But it still makes sense. We’re still writing a lot of refinances. And one area that I’m seeing opportunity, even though we’re off the lows — the lows were saw last fall, but we are off them now. But there’s still a lot of people with rates that are over 100 basis points, which is 1%, are over 1% savings level. And then the other thing that I see too is debt consolidation, people that own a home already and they have a lot of equity built up, but they have other loans that they’re paying higher interest rates, we’ve been able to really help some folks get their budget in line, really get themselves on a clean slate and really get a good savings plan. So I think refinancing can make sense no matter what the rates are. Everyone’s situation is different. And the trend for rates, I think what we’re going to see — and this is just, again, a disclaimer that I’m not an economist, but I do — I’m a bit of a nerd, I will admit, and I read a lot of this stuff and I have all kinds of subscriptions that I follow. But the trend is going to be some inflation this year. But the Fed is accommodative. So I think rates will be a little higher as the year goes on, but you have a lot of things that are going to help rates stay at a certain level. But I do think rates will trend a bit higher this year. On the other hand, looking out into the future, large government deficits and debt like we’re posing, I think we’ll hear even more of that here this week coming out, I mean, that’s all deflationary typically. So what that means is it puts pressure on rates to go down, right? So it’s just an interesting time. It’s hard to really be a crystal ball seeing the future, but this year, I think the trend is going to be slightly higher rates.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and as you mentioned, Tony, we saw rates really at a significant low back in the fall, but I do think — and you probably see this more than I do every day — I’ve talked with a handful of individuals in the last several weeks that still may have purchased back in, you know, I remember fall of 2018, rates on a 30-year fixed mortgage were north of 4.25-4.5% for many folks. So I think there still is opportunity out there. And for folks that maybe haven’t gone through that evaluation to see do the numbers make sense? Of course there’s other factors beyond that, not to exclude refinance as an opportunity, even as we may see rates tick up here in a little bit. Tony, one of the things I wanted to get your feel on, you’re in this every day, obviously, in your market down in Florida but also have a good pulse on what’s going on nationally. Here in Columbus, I mean, the folks that I have talked to, it seems like above asking is the norm and in some cases, significantly above asking, bidding wars that are ongoing, sometimes appraisal waivers that are happening, and I think it just raises some attention and warrants some conversation about like, what are the implications of those types of things? You know, I think for folks that are out there shopping now or soon to be out there shopping throughout the spring and the summer, before you find yourself looking and then within 24 hours, you’re in a bidding war, like what are some things, you know — No. 1, are you seeing those and are hearing about that across different markets? And then for the buyer, what are some things that they should just be thinking about of the implications of those types of scenarios?

Tony Umholtz: That’s a great question. And absolutely we’re seeing that in a lot of markets. We lend across the country, so we’re seeing it in multiple, multiple markets. It is — and some are worse than others. But they’re all pretty heated in a lot of ways. One thing I’ll mention just on the waivers of contingencies, I think you’ve got to be very careful with that. I think you need to be very aware of what you’re getting into because when you say I’m just waiving the appraisal contingency, well, if you were to pay $300,000 for a house and it comes in at $280,000, well, the bank is going to use $280,000, the lender is going to use $280,000 as the price point, right? So in that case, you’re coming to the table with $20,000 more in equity. So there is some risk here involved when you waive these contingencies. So I think, you know, I know it’s hard. And I get calls all the time from listing agents on pre-approval letters I’ve sent on behalf of our customers, and they want — they ask me all these questions, and obviously I can’t answer anything personal. But they tell me, “Your input was important because we’ve got 12 offers.” You know? “And I’m taking them all to my seller tonight, and we’re going to meet and go through each one.” Some of the things I’ve learned — one thing I’ve learned from a couple very veteran real estate agents, this might help the audience here, is a lot of my clients will say, “You know, just put the minimum amount of my offer on your pre-approval letter.” So if I’m offering $300,000, just put $300,000 on that letter. So we’ll do that a lot thinking it’s a negotiating tact. But what a lot of these agents have told me, they say, “We actually like the ones that say $500,000 on it.” And the reason why is they know the client’s very qualified.

Tim Ulbrich: They know it, yep.

Tony Umholtz: So they look at it differently than I think a lot of people do because a negotiating is a negotiating. They’re trying to find the strongest candidate that’s going to close. And it’s not just about the price, even. It’s also — price is important, but I think it’s the ease of closing and a lot of times, you’re competing against cash offers too. So you have — and they might be a little lower, so you have to overcome and say, “Hey, mine has financing, but I’ve got to put my best foot forward.” But I’d be very — again, very cautious about waiving these contingencies. I think you have to have some sort of out. If you’re working with a realtor, you have to see if you can negotiate that in. If the appraisal comes in low, it’s going to cause big problems for a lot of people.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I’m glad you said that, Tony. I think this is a good reminder, you know, something I’ve shared many times on the show before, but especially in the market that we’re in where negotiation is not in your favor as the buyer, right? It’s very much a seller’s market. You’ve got to really take a step back and hopefully objectively evaluate before you’re out there even shopping, what does this mean in the context of the rest of the financial plan, right? And so you know, having a pulse of the market of if you’re looking at homes that are $300,000-400,000, what might that actually end up being in the market? Is it more like $320,000? $330,000? $420,000? $430,000? Depending on offers and so forth. And how does that work out for the rest of your plan? Run out those numbers. Work with your planner, work with your coach to really evaluate that because I think that obviously home buying can be a very exciting, emotional thing. It’s a very important step for many people in their financial plan, but we’ve got to make sure we’re doing it in the right context of everything else that we’re trying to achieve. Tony, the other question I have for you — it made me think about this when you said cash offers, more of them being out there, and I’ve heard the same thing, is how does this then work out for folks that are trying to sell a current home to buy? So I’m thinking of a contingency upon the current sale of a home to buy. You know, is this market even less favorable to them? Or are there strategies that they can employ for those that are in that position where they aren’t able to buy until they also have the sale of their home that they can be competitive against other buyers that are in the market?

Tony Umholtz: We’ve seen a lot of these lately with the contingencies. We’ve had a couple approvals that we’ve done where we’ve had to — the client clearly had to sell their house before they could afford a new one. But once they listed the house, they sold it so quickly that it really was a fast process.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Tony Umholtz: So I think the challenge is you don’t want to have that — it’s going to be hard to win over 12 — or say there’s 10 other people bidding on the house at the same time, it’s going to clearly be challenging to win if you have a contingency. But there are some situations where you’ll be surprised that that house sells pretty fast. That’s the other piece is if you want to sell your home, you kind of have to be on your toes and find something pretty quickly.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Tony Umholtz: Or negotiate some lease back with the buyer of your home.

Tim Ulbrich: Tony, one of the things I’ve been thinking about lately is considering how hot the market is, considering just the unique factors we have of kind of what’s going on with interest rates and potential inflation and supply and demand and new construction being down, all these variable, like living through 2008, I can’t help but think back to man, are there lessons that we learned there that we should also be thinking about now as we’re really continuing to see this market as hot as it is? You know, essentially is there reason for concern? And I saw a statistic leading up to this episode that says — this was reported from Google — that the search for the phrase “When is the housing market going to crash?” was up 2,450% over the last month, so obviously others are thinking about this. Some research from JP Morgan, quoting that “after robust gains over the past five years, the nationwide nominal house price index is now 40% above its 2012 low point and 4% above the peak that was reached in 2006.” And they go on to say, “If 2006 was a historic bubble, then current price levels should be looked at more closely.” You know, you think about obviously the value of homes going up much faster than we’re seeing in terms of individual’s income, we’re still coming out of some unemployment, you know, related to the pandemic, people getting positions back, so my question here is like, are homes overvalued? You know, what’s the concern of this? And like what is different here from what we experienced in part related to the Great Recession of 2008?

Tony Umholtz: Great questions. I mean, you know, lots of things that you mentioned there. And I’ll give you some feedback from my experience in the business before that time. So I started in the mortgage business almost 20 years ago now. And I lived through that. I was actually — my third year, I think I was in my fourth year in the business was 2005. And I was still pretty young at the time, but I was one of the top loan originators in my company nationally at the time. I wrote 400 loans that year. And I look back at that year, and I was always a very fairly risk-averse person. So you know, I wasn’t one of those lenders doing crazy loans. But back then, Fannie Mae even took loans with no income documentation. I remember running them through Fannie Mae’s system, and they just needed a pay stub and that’s it. So I’ll give you the differences that I’m seeing, and I’ll just equip everyone with the most knowledge they can have here. So back in that timeframe, half of the business I wrote was people who were speculators. They literally were going to buy the homes to either rent them or flip them. That’s what it was. You know, everyone was caught in this train, I’m waiting in line to buy a home to flip it, to rent it. It was that kind of thing. And the other half was owner-occupied clients. So that was the mix of my volume back then. Nowadays, I’d say 95% of the loans that we write are owner-occupied homes. And some of them are like true second homes where people are literally going to be moving to Florida or to another area as soon as they retire. It’s I want to lock in my property now because we’re retiring in a few years. It’s that kind of thing. So the amount of speculation that I’m seeing on an individual buyer basis is much different. Now there’s a lot more institutional landlords out there, hedge fund-types that own rental property, but it’s not to the degree that — I remember back in ‘05, it was just so many people, the greed level, lending standards were much different. We could — like I mentioned, we could do loans with very little documentation. Lots of lenders did — and I’ll share this with the audience if anyone’s ever seen the Big Short movie, I was on the phone, probably 28 years old at the time, with Bear Stearns. I was one of the bigger producers. I remember Bear Stearns mentioning to us that they would buy 100% no documentation loans from us.

Tim Ulbrich: Sheesh.

Tony Umholtz: And I just remember thinking to myself, that’s — and I hadn’t been in the business that long, maybe four years or so — and I remember thinking, that doesn’t seem right. And then of course, couple years later, you know, I had the foresight.

Tim Ulbrich: Come to find out…

Tony Umholtz: But come to find out everything had happened. But the amount of greed that was in the marketplace was a little bit, it was a different environment than it is today. And not to say that things — but the amount of leverage that was in the environment, like anyone could get a loan. It was — people were just buying loans in speculation. Now it seems more fundamental. But you know, the one thing I will add in is interest rates, what does that do? Because if you see interest rates double from here, that’s going to affect affordability. And then from my vantage point, I think with rates being low, prices have risen. But one thing that you should look into is the historical real estate values. And even though we had that peak in ‘06, you’ll notice that we dropped off a lot, and then it typically hovers around that 3-4% long-term appreciation. I think we might be a little over that right now, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we kind of just huddle along that line. Again, never say never, but it’s one of those things where it’s hard to — I don’t see the leverage, the difficulty in getting a mortgage today is much different than it was 14, 15, 16 years ago. It’s not — if anyone’s gone through the process, we really do due diligence, right? We see your income, your assets, we see your credit, we verify everything.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I was just going to share the same thing, Tony. If anybody has gone through this within the last couple years or even since 2008, you know the difference in terms of paperwork, I saw the difference in terms of transparency of information, easier to understand documentation from a lendee perspective if you’re willing to read through all of that paperwork. So I’m glad you shared that. I think the circumstances are different, and I think it’s important for folks to understand this is not a 2008 type of scenario or 2006 type of scenario in terms of documentation required, in terms of the types of mortgages that are out there, the lending practices, in terms of how conservative I would argue they are today compared to where they were back then. Tony, you said affordability, and that’s something that’s also top of mind for me is you know, I think of pharmacists — obviously, because that’s our community here — where incomes are relatively flat for many pharmacists right now. In some cases, we’re actually seeing incomes go down just because of hours of work that are available and for a variety of industry pressures that we have on those positions — and I’m generalizing here. Of course that’s not true for all positions. But it makes me think, then, about that case where for pharmacists, specifically we may see wages that are flat, obviously housing costs here going up significantly, we’re not even talking about perhaps general inflation in other areas that may be coming into the future. But even beyond pharmacists, like I think this question of affordability is a really interesting one. And you mentioned interest and demand among millennials. I guess the other side of that coin I would ask is like is this market making housing unaffordable for perhaps a generation in some regards? That this is going to impact many people getting into a home and the economic benefits that can come from that.

Tony Umholtz: I think it clearly can influence a lot of people. I mean, you think about in certain markets and just how much prices have gone up, I mean, again, borrowing costs have kept things pretty darn low. That’s helped. But one thing about borrowing costs versus income — and flat income is not, obviously you’re not seeing that gain every year.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Tony Umholtz: But normally, the income increases and the increase in prices, it’s not — the increases in prices is outstripped because of that borrowing cost. But you’re clearly right. The one thing that I will throw in, the other thing that’s to me is a little more frightening is rent prices.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that’s right.

Tony Umholtz: They came down right when COVID hit because of the shock to the market, but they’re really surging in most markets. So when I have clients that we do our preapprovals, we see what they’re paying in rent, and it’s eye-opening. So I think that that’s the other side of this is if rents are where they’re at and you look at that affordability, you know, that’s going to be a challenge. And this is one thing we just have to keep an eye on. The markets are — they’ll correct themselves eventually. But the Fed may have to keep rates low longer.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. Is that — on the rent side, Tony, I’m sure it’s more complicated than I’m suggesting, but is that a trickle down effect of supply and demand on the buying side? That you know, if there’s not as many homes to go around for people that are interested in buying, you then increase the demand on the rent side, which further drives up rent price?

Tony Umholtz: It’s twofold. So I mean, part of it is supply and demand with rentals too. You know, if you have very little vacancy in your apartment building, you can command higher rents. The other thing you’ve got to watch is as there’s more and more multifamily, which is an apartment complexes or rentals being built, that’ll also put some pressure on rents as well and I think over time will catch up, builders will catch up. It might take a couple of years, but I think there will be an equilibrium, it always does shift. And the other thing I’ll just mention too with COVID is none of us saw COVID coming, right, until it hit. And with the Great Recession of ‘08, we saw some warning signs. You can never predict what it’s going to be. Right? We don’t know this for sure. And you know, we’ve put a lot of safeguards in to prevent some of the things that happened in ‘08. But it could be something different, right? And we don’t know what that will be to impact, but at the end of the day, you need a place to sell. And it was funny, I was on the phone call with a past client this morning. And he had bought his home in 2007, probably the absolute worst time to buy it, and he said, “You know, I just kept it rented.” I think the value got — down here in Florida, there’s parts of this area that got cut in half. I mean, we were hit probably as hard as anywhere in the country. And it came all the way back and is well above what he paid for it now. But that’s one of the things about housing is even investors, if you rent the property, you get a return not just from appreciation. That’s how — this isn’t a talk about investments, but that’s why it’s always important to have that if you own an investment property, that it cash flows, right? So that’s what you’re looking for.

Tim Ulbrich: Tony, one of the other questions that comes to mind here is if I’m someone listening who maybe I’m interested in buying a home, but it’s not a burning need in the moment. I could wait. Is there any merit into hey, let’s let things cool off a little bit, let’s let supply normalize and ride this out for a little bit? Or do you think because of how significant the supply and demand issue is now, that we might be in this type of a market for awhile?

Tony Umholtz: I think it’s going to be awhile before we see things really calm down. I mean, it’s — everyone’s market is different too. I think we have to be clear on that. Most of the country is experiencing a very robust housing market, but every place is different and every pocket of the city can be different. So I think it’s your individual area, but I think overall, in general terms, it’s just going to be up to the person. I don’t think — you know, I’ll just go back and I’ll talk about last year, and I’ll go back to 2017-18. I had conversations with clients of mine, and a lot of these were people that I had done business with for years, so as some of them took a pause, I had a couple of them sold their homes in ‘16 and ‘17 because the market had gone up nicely, said, “I’m going to rent for awhile, then I’m going to buy back in.” Well, that didn’t work so well. So even my own feelings, I remember a couple years ago thinking, things are pretty hot right now, it’s 2019. So it’s hard to predict, and I think you’ve got to look at your family situation. This is a lifestyle decision. It’s not like buying a stock in Apple or Amazon, right? It’s a — you live there. So while it’s an important, big investment, over time, it’s going to be OK. And I think the amount of money you’re going to have to pay in rent will be something you have to keep in mind when you’re paying that rent versus owning a home that you’re building equity in just by making the payments. So if you absolutely don’t have to buy, yeah, you could wait it out, see what happens. But I don’t know how much better it’s going to be. Then the other side of it what are interest rates doing?

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Tony Umholtz: So if we see interest rates moves a half-point higher, then even if prices stay the same and they flatline, you’re going to be paying more per month. So there’s a lot of factors to go into it.

Tim Ulbrich: I’m glad you mentioned the rates again too, Tony, because I think that we often throw around terms like a half-point, quarter-point, that obviously if folks haven’t run numbers before, I’d encourage you to do so. I mean, a half a point, three-quarters of a point, of course as that increases on a $300,000, $400,000, $500,000 loan over 30 years, we’re talking about tens of thousands of dollars of difference, if not more than that. And so this comes back to the conversation about not only where are rates from a time perspective but things like credit and optimizing your credit and understanding your credit score and how to improve your credit, things that we’ve talked about on the show before but obviously why credit such an important part of the financial plan, as we talk here related to home buying and interest rates. Tony, the other trend I want to get your perspective on, you and I have talked about this briefly offline, you know, we’ve mentioned a little bit about the work-from-home movement and perhaps because of this, folks moving more out to the suburbs. I’m also thinking about just beyond their current area, the flexibility that they may now have, not within their area but to move to a warmer climate or to move to a beach town or something that wasn’t on the table before but now because there’s perhaps more flexibility in their work environment that they’re able to do that. So are you seeing those trends, especially knowing where you’re at down in Florida where you’re seeing more folks that are looking for a second home or picking up and moving because they have more flexibility with their work?

Tony Umholtz: The transition has been amazing. I’ve — a couple of stories this week that we have. We have a couple of closings for clients here in Tampa that are from New York City. They can live anywhere. And I’ve been getting a lot of referrals from Miami as well that a lot of folks moving down from New York. And some of them have lived in the city their whole life and just are ready for a change. And they can remotely, and it’s freed them up. I think you’ll see Miami become a major financial district in our country now. I mean, you’re seeing a big exodus of kind of the Wall Street financial firms moving down, relocating their businesses down there. And we’re seeing a lot of it here in Tampa, a lot of second home purchases too for those that can afford them because they can use them and take their kids that might be homeschooled right now or doing online learning. I’ve done a lot of lending on Amory Island, which is down here about an hour and a half south of Tampa. And it’s a really neat spot, but it’s just — the amount of demand because people can do that. They can live there, they can live there part of the time and work there and enjoy the beach. But in other places too, I’ve seen other second home markets around the country where people are taking advantage of this ability to work remotely. And I think the technology has been — this is something that’s always been there. 2020 was a catalyst, right, for all this to happen. And I think you’re just going to continue to see that trend, although there is some of that movement back for some people to get back into the office, especially as the vaccinations have really grown across the country. But I still think you’re going to see this ability to work remotely. Even with me, I’m in the office a couple days a week, and then I work from my home office as well. So we can work effectively both places.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I think every time you and I have connected, Tony, over the last year we’re probably both at home. Sometimes the kids are in the background. It’s just part of the new norm, you know? I think that, to your point, like we saw this coming. I mean, the desire for a more flexible, remote work environment and then obviously the pandemic in 2020 was the catalyst. And it’s going to be interesting to see what goes back, you know, to normal and what stays. You also have the advantage down there of no state income tax in Florida, right? So that’s a bonus for people that are looking there.

Tony Umholtz: We do.

Tim Ulbrich: Let’s transition, Tony. I want to talk a little bit about the pharmacist home loan that you all offer through IBERIABANK and First Horizon. I suspect many of our listeners are already aware of this product from previous podcasts that we’ve had. We’ve got information also on the website, YourFinancialPharmacist.com/home-loan. But I think for many of our listeners, when it comes to home buying, I think of, OK, what are the most common barriers? Well, student loan debt typically rises to the top. And then the other thing I think about is usually the cash available as a new practitioner or a pharmacist who’s getting started to be able to put a down payment on a home. And I think the pharmacist home loan offered through IBERIABANK/First Horizon really allows folks an opportunity that they may have thought otherwise was impossible or weren’t aware of the option that was out there. So tell us a little bit about this mortgage loan option that you all offer. What’s the product about? Minimum down payment, maximum loan amount? And then some of the requirements for one to qualify.

Tony Umholtz: Sure. Well, the product’s been just a great help for so many people. And I think the big advantage of this program is you can do as little as 3-5% down with no PMI. So if you’re a first-time home buyer, you could do 3% down with no mortgage insurance. If you’ve owned before, it’s 5% down, again, no mortgage insurance. And the interest rates are very, very strong. In most cases, they’re better than a client putting 20% down, which is an advantage. And as far as the maximum loan amounts go, we currently are capped at $548,250 as a maximum loan amount for the product. And there’s a minimum credit score of 700. So you have to have at least a 700 credit score to qualify. But other than that, it’s really — that’s the qualifier. So there’s nothing else really you have to be concerned about. There’s not a clear reserve requirement or anything to that degree. And there’s no prepayment penalty on the mortgage either. So you can pay the loan off early if you choose to. Just is a great way to get into the housing market. And PMI is — you look at a $400,000 or $500,000 home, and you’re paying hundreds of dollars a month at that point.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right. Yeah, great stuff. And we’ll link, again, in the show notes, YourFinancialPharmacist.com/home-loan. We’ve got lots of great information on the site about the product, about home buying considerations, some great educational content there as well. So I hope our listeners will check out that post, “Five Steps to Getting a Home Loan,” again, YourFinancialPharmacist.com/home-loan. Tony, you know, two of the collaborations that we have among others as well that really have been I think a big plus for us at YFP and our community, obviously the work that we’ve been doing with you, tapping into your expertise on the podcast here for pharmacists that are looking for financing options on a home loan purchase. So if you’re in the market for buying a home, I would encourage you to reach out to Tony at IBERIABANK/First Horizon. And for those that are buying and also looking for an agent, a shoutout here to Nate Hedrick, the Real Estate RPh, who is there to help you find an agent in your area that would be a good fit for you. And Nate’s there to walk alongside you in that journey. You can find more information about that at YourFinancialPharmacist.com, click on “Buy or Refi a Home” at the top of the page, and you’ll see more information about the professional home loan with IBERIA/First Horizon as well as an option to find an agent. So Tony, thank you so much for taking the time to join again. What’s the best way that our listeners can reach out to you if they have questions or want to get in touch to learn more about the product?

Tony Umholtz: Definitely by email. My email address: [email protected]. And also our office number, (813) 603-4255. I know it’s all listed on the website, but those are the best ways. We have a great team, and glad to help. Everyone’s situation is different, so we love to help. That’s what we do.

Tim Ulbrich: Tony, great stuff again. Thanks so much for taking time to come on the show.

Tony Umholtz: Thanks, Tim. Good to be here.

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Posted on May 6, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

How to Teach Your Kids About Money and Investing

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Tim Ulbrich welcomes Dylin Redling and Allison Tom, creators of Retireby45.com and authors of two books, Start Your F.I.R.E. (Financial Independence Retire Early): A Modern Guide to Early Retirement and Investing for Kids: How to Save, Invest and Grow Money to the show. Dylin and Allison talk about their FIRE journey and share practical advice and meaningful activities to teach kids about money and investing.

About Today’s Guests

Dylin Redling and Allison Tom are a married couple living in Oakland, California. After working for 17 years in the tech industry in San Francisco, they left the workforce in January 2015 and never went back.

They own and operate the website RetireBy45.com, which provides inspiration, tips, and resources for achieving FIRE (Financial Independence/Retiring Early) and making the most of the FIRE lifestyle. In 2020, they wrote and published two books: “Start Your FIRE: A Modern Guide to Early Retirement” and the best-selling “Investing for Kids.”

They love food, fitness, and travel. Their goal of “60 by 60” is to visit 60 countries by the age of 60. They are halfway to their goal with another 10 years to go!

Summary

Dylin Redling and Allison Tom, creators of Retireby45.com and authors of Start Your F.I.R.E. (Financial Independence Retire Early): A Modern Guide to Early Retirement and Investing for Kids: How to Save, Invest and Grow Money, join Tim Ulbrich on this week’s podcast episode. In this interview, focused on their book, Investing for Kids, Dylin and Allison share their creative process and some of the practical and meaningful activities that can be found in the book.

Allison digs into some of the motivations behind Investing for Kids and talks about why they choose to have superhero protagonists. She explains that she and Dylin not only wanted to make the book educational for kids, walking them through basic concepts of personal finance, but also wanted the activities in the book to be fun and exciting for kids to participate in rather than having those activities feel like more homework.

Dylin and Allison also share their own experiences, growing up with different financial knowledge and money lessons, and how those experiences plus a series of calculated financial decisions brought them to be able to retire in their early 40s. Dylin and Allison remark on their time as retirees and the freedom that they have been afforded because of it. Their goal of “60 by 60” is to visit 60 countries by the age of 60. They are already halfway to their goal!

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Dylin and Allison, welcome to the show.

Allison Tom: Thanks for having us.

Dylin Redling: Thank you very much. Great to be here.

Tim Ulbrich: I’ve very much been looking forward to this interview to talk more about your story achieving financial independence and early retirement and more specifically, the work that the two of you did in writing “Investing for Kids: How to Save, Invest, and Grow Money.” And Dylin, let’s start with you only because we share an Ohio State connection since you’re an alum so go Bucks. Why write a book specifically designed for kids about investing? What was the motivation behind your work?

Dylin Redling: Yeah, well, first of all, go Buckeyes. Yes, a great connection there. It’s interesting because I’ll start off with the interesting fact that Allison and I actually don’t have kids. And so you would think that the impetus would have been we had our own kids and we taught them financial literacy and it inspired us to teach more kids. But in fact, we sort of stumbled into this book. This is our second book. Our first book is called, “Start Your FIRE: A Modern Guide to Early Retirement.” And it’s all about early retirement and financial independence, which that book just poured right out of us because it’s something that we live and we know very well. And what happened was the publisher who we worked with on that book came back to us a couple months after that book was published and said, “Hey, we have an idea for this other book. And it’s investing for kids ages 8-12. And what do you guys think because you know about investing and financial concepts, and we think you guys might be able to pull this off.” And we thought, wow, we don’t have kids, we’re not teachers, we don’t hang out with kids. We have a few friends with kids, but we don’t spend a lot of time with them. And so we thought, man, this sounds really challenging and daunting. But it was during the 2020 year of COVID, so we had a lot of time on our hands. So we thought, let’s just go for it. And we dove into it, and it was very challenging because we wanted it to be interesting for kids and informative and fun but somehow, we put our heads together and we had a really good editing team that helped us with some of the concepts to relate to kids. And that’s — and we just dove into it and we just made it happen.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think you guys did an awesome job. You know, one of the things that stood out to me as my wife and I were looking through this book as parents of four young kids trying to teach this topic of money is that’s it’s very hands-on, it’s relatable, it’s digestible, lots of activities, really cool ideas. You know, I often find myself, especially writing, talking about this topic regularly, presenting on this topic, you take for granted how you learned some of this information along the way. You know, I often think, OK, take a concept like compound interest or, you know, mutual funds or index funds or ultimately trying to determine what your retirement savings goals, any of those concepts, and it’s very easy to get lost in the weeds. And I think it’s often hard to figure out, how am I going to break this down and teach this with my children and really work through this? And so I found myself looking through this, not only learning myself of oh, that’s a really neat way to teach a different concept or a very visual way or a nice activity to apply that information. So I think as I looked through this, whether someone is more advanced in their own knowledge and understanding of personal finance or whether they feel like they could also learn from these concepts, either one I think this book could be a really good guide for them alongside of working with their child. So great work in the work that you put together with the book. And Allison, knowing your background is a technical project manager, I’m curious, I mean, how and why did you catch FIRE — pun intended here — with this topic, not only as an individual pursuit for financial independence but also in wanting to help guide others to the work that you’re doing with RetireBy45.com and with the book “Investing for Kids.” Where does the interest come from?

Allison Tom: Part of it is that my college degree is actually psychology and education. So I had all these grand ideas of becoming a teacher, an elementary school teacher, after I graduated from college. But you know, after a couple of years, it dawned on me that frankly, our teachers are woefully underpaid. And there was pretty much there was no clear financial path for me to continue being a teacher making the salary I was making, so I was living in Boston at the time and I moved back to New York where we eventually met waiting tables, of all things. And we came out to San Francisco on a whim, we were on vacation, we were in our mid-20s, we thought, alright, let’s check out San Francisco. And so I bounced around from career to career and ended up on a consulting company that eventually brought me into the technical world of the Bay Area. But you know, so being a project manager is basically being a glorified teacher. So it’s dropping people, wrangling people to do things that you want them to do but do it in a way that makes them want to be — work as a team and learn from each other. So in a way, it was being a project manager was — it had very similar tendencies as it was being a teacher. And so we had always thought, oh, it would be great to retire early, but we didn’t really know what retiring early meant. We thought, oh, 55, that seems like a really good age to retire. It’s earlier than 65, but it seems so far in the future. And living in the Bay Area, our expenses were so high that we were like, there’s no way, even if we’re making decent salaries between the two of us that we’re ever going to retire. But about 11 years or so ago, Dylin came down with double pneumonia and was in the ICU for about 10 days and in the hospital altogether for almost two weeks. And that for us was a light bulb moment because he was within a 50/50 chance that he would make it. And so you know, after that, we kind of thought, OK, do we really want to keep working for the next 25 years or so? And so we kind of like made it our goal to get out of the rat race as soon as we could. And so we kind of fell into by accident. We can talk about that later, but it just — it kind of was a natural progression from all of the things that we’ve been doing over time.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that makes sense. And I appreciate you sharing some of the background and story. We’ll come back to how you got to that point of early retirement, obviously as I mentioned in the introduction, early 40s to be able to accomplish that goal, and we’ll talk a little bit about how you got to that path, why that was possible as well. And so let’s first dig into some of the book of “Investing for Kids.” Let’s start with the main characters of the book, the Dollar Duo: Mr. Finance and Investing Woman. Allison, tell us more about these two characters, how you came up with the idea, why it was important to the overall text, and how those characters can really help the learner, again, 8- to 12-year-old is the target group here, engage with the material throughout the book.

Allison Tom: Well, first of all, it was kind of funny, today is actually Superheroes Day, so —

Tim Ulbrich: There we go.

Allison Tom: It’s a perfect segue into the topic. We were actually taking a walk one day as we were writing the book, and we were talking about politics, of all things. And we were trying to figure out in the administration, whichever administration, whoever won the presidency, what each president could do to make their administration better. And so we kind of were talking and talking about of all things, the Justice League of America and who we would think would be a good fit for making this country a better country. And so the whole idea of the Justice League, kind of thought, we thought, oh, superheroes. Kids love superheroes. Let’s talk to our publisher about bringing in some superheroes. And we were like, well, I don’t know if they’ll go for that, there’s some extra graphics involved and it could be expensive, but we felt that it would really be a good way for kids to relate to finances. And so we kind of pushed hard for this idea of having superheroes teach kids finance.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that stood out to me in addition to how visual it is. This does not — especially for a topic like investing, right, can be weighty at times, it can be overwhelming, I often find myself when I’m giving a talk on this topic, starts with excitement often when we think about what the — and then you get into the weeds and you see the eyes gloss over, right, and other things. And this does not read like a textbook in any way, shape, or form. And I’m grateful for that. So thank you for the illustrations, the activities, the superheroes, but I think it very much reads like an interactive, applicable, nuts-and-bolts, important information, but how do I actually apply it and hopefully get excited about this information. Again, we’re thinking about an 8- to 12-year-old of wanting to really hopefully empower them to be excited with this for the rest of their own financial journey. And I very much read this book, as I mentioned, being a father of four boys who also lives and breathes personal finance, I really do often find myself in conversation with my boys about money. And honestly, I struggle at times with making the topic of money tangible and meaningful. And it can feel abstract, especially when I find myself trying to say and teach a principle that I very much understand but it feels more abstract as I talk it out loud and especially when you start to view it through the lens of a child. And so I like how you start the book with Chapter 1 on Money 101. You cover important topics like money doesn’t grow on trees, ways to earn money, a little bit of entrepreneurship in there, which is really cool, the history of money, where to keep money. And so Dylin, here’s the challenge that I’m seeing with my boys. In the age of credit cards, debit cards, direct deposit, online banking, digital currency, electronic payment methods, it can feel difficult to teach a child about money when you don’t see it. Right? There’s very little actual, physical cash and therefore, it can be hard to connect work and I think the opportunities from work with earning money and therefore, the opportunity to then save and see it grow. So what are some tips and strategies as you put this book together as well as the other teaching you’ve done on this topic about how can we teach kids about money in a way that it can be relatable, it can be tangible, and then hopefully it becomes memorable for them.

Dylin Redling: Yeah, you know, that’s a really good point about money being very digital in this day and age. I remember when I was a kid, one of the coolest things was my grandmother would give me and my cousins 50 single dollars for Christmas and for our birthdays. They would come in a little box just big enough to hold those 50 $1 bills.

Tim Ulbrich: I love that.

Dylin Redling: And — yeah, it was really cool. And you know, $50 back then for a kid was a lot of money. And those 50 $1 bills would last a really long time. I would take them into the arcade, into the pizza parlor, whatever. And so maybe one way to do it is to actually bring back physical money. And I don’t think the amount really matters that much. But like you said, I mean, being able to tangibly feel it, see it, and understand it, it helps a lot more if you’re using physical money. And I’ll actually give an example of that we used on our blog and in actually “Start Your FIRE” book. I don’t think we mentioned it in “Investing for Kids,” but it’s a little story I like to tell about a money lesson that I actually learned from Allison when we were waiting tables in New York. So we met in a big restaurant in Times Square, and Allison grew up with a little bit of a better financial education in her household than I did. My single mother was wonderful, but it was all paycheck-to-paycheck, there wasn’t a lot of saving or investing. So I came into our initial relationship not very good at dealing with money. So anyway, we were waiting tables. So all of our money pretty much was in tips. So we would have tons of cash. And I remember just putting the money — I would wad it up into balls, I would stuff it into all four of my pockets because I was busy. And then we would go out afterwards and Allison saw how I was treating my money, and she was like, “What are you doing? How do you even keep track of that? That’s awful.” And so she taught me this little lesson. And she doesn’t even remember this because this was 25 years ago, but it stuck out in my head. And basically, I call it the Wallet Lesson. When you take all of your bills and you put them nicely, neatly in order from small to big or big to small, whatever works, fold it neatly into your wallet. And it’s really simple, but the reason it was impactful for me is because it just got me to think about how to respect and treat money. You know, you work really hard for money —

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Dylin Redling: And if you don’t treat it well, you don’t respect it, you know, that $50 might not seem like a big deal. But when it gets to $100,000 or $500,000 and you don’t have that same respect and feel for what that money represents and how hard it was to earn it, you’re not going to put it and treat it and save it and protect it as well as you could.

Tim Ulbrich: Such a good example of a behavioral move, right? The number of dollars didn’t change, but how you treated them, how you respected them, how you viewed them, and I think many of our listeners, we talk on this show often that I believe personal finance, it’s about the math and it’s about the behavior, and both of those are very important and some of those types of moves or here, teaching kids in that way, I think can be very powerful as well. Allison, Chapter 2, save your money, you have an activity titled “Be an Interest Rate Detective.” I love this. I thought this was a really cool interactive activity where you challenge the reader to work with an adult to research interest rates for a local bank savings account, a CD, so a Certificate of Deposit, and an online savings account. So again, this was just one of many example activities you have throughout the book, but why is an activity like this so important in terms of someone being an interest rate detective to experience and go through as they begin their journey of understanding some of the basics of investing?

Allison Tom: So part of it is we wanted all the activities to be something that kids could do with the adult in their life. And we didn’t assume that every child has a parent because we know in this modern day and age that families are different nowadays, and you might have two moms or two dads or a grandmother or grandfather or a guardian of some sort. So we wanted something that people could do together with — kids could do together with someone else. And we thought, oh, it’s going to be interesting because banks are closed during COVID. When we were writing the book, it was right in the heart of shelter in place. But we thought, well, you know, kids have access to — most kids have access to a computer, they can at least walk around to a local bank and banks always have their advertisements on their windows with their interest rates. But we thought it would be an interesting way for kids to see what is in their environment and practice some good behaviors like oh, what does interest rate mean? What is APR? Those are, they’re jumbled letters and so you actually learn what the acronym stands for. And so we want to make sure that kids could kind of connect their physical world to their these abstract ideas about money. So all these activities are kind of a way to get kids to start thinking about it, and we were like, oh, kids aren’t really going to want to do activities, it’s extra homework. So we tried to make them fun and things that they could actually do and feel like they were learning something.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think this was a good example where the activity really, to me, is a rabbit hole of other learning, right? So if you go to the bank and do this activity, just like you suggested, Allison, it leads to other conversations and questions like, what is the federal reserve? And what is an insured account? What does that mean? You talk about that in the book, you know, how do you explain the federal reserve? What is compound interest? Why is that so important? What is principle? What’s interest? What do terms mean? And I think it, again, leads to further conversations, which obviously hopefully spark some motivation and curiosity to learn more on this topic. Dylin, in Chapter 3, Introduction to Investing, you cover very important topics, you know, why to invest, risk v. reward — and I love the Risk-o-meter throughout the book, that was really neat — liquidity, the importance of conducting research, and connecting back to my previous comment about the difficulties teaching a child about money when it may not be tangible, you can’t see it, can’t feel it type of a mindset, I think this is another area where parents may feel challenged to teach a child the importance of investing when again, it might feel somewhat abstract and here, we’re talking about delayed gratification, right? So not spending money on something today that has an instant reward. I think back to my childhood, it was driving to the corner store, buying baseball cards, buying candy, you earn the money, you spent the money, you saw the reward instantly. So here, the activity on investing, which I thought helped to really drive this concept further, you talk about an activity of picking a stock and really going through that process of understanding what’s involved there. So talk us through that type of an activity, what’s involved in that, and why that’s important to help a child relate to the concepts of investing.

Dylin Redling: Yeah, sure. It’s interesting because I can also relate it to how Allison and I do our own investing. And most of what we do, to be honest, are buying mutual funds and index funds. We don’t do a lot of single stock buying. However, there are some advantages to just helping a child or anybody, really, think about, well, if you were to buy a single stock, what would the thought process be when you do that? We actually just wrote an interesting post on our blog just about a week ago where we had $10,000 that we wanted to experiment with. And what we did is we selected five different stocks to invest that $10,000. So $2,000 per stock. And I went through the process in that blog post of why we would do this. And it wasn’t to get rich quick or to see what would happen in a week or a month. This particular blog post talked about a one-year time frame. And it’s the same with the activity for the child. I think we used a shorter — a relatively short time frame so they could at least measure their success. At the end of the day, investing, as you know, as your listeners know, it’s very much a long-term process where you’re investing over years and decades. But again, to get the child to think about some of the things that you might want to think about with whether you’re investing in stocks or any sort of investment, what are the things that go into that thought process? And so getting back to that blog post I wrote, some of the stocks that I suggested that we test out, one was a blockchain ETF. So now that bitcoin and other coin-based just went public, those are things that we wouldn’t necessarily invest in directly. But a blockchain ETF is an example of a way you could dip your toe into that technology. So that was the thought process there. Another example was a cruise company, NCL, Norwegian Cruise Line. Now that COVID is starting to disappear and everyone’s getting vaccinated, people, there’s this pent-up demand to start traveling again. So we thought, hey, in the next year, NCL may actually start to do really good. And they even have a program where if you have 100 shares, you get extra bonus points. And so the idea is to think about all the different aspects to that investment, like how does it relate to what’s going on in the world right now? And what other pros and cons are there to that investment?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think we share your philosophy. What I heard there is our planning team often says a good investing plan should probably be as about boring as watching paint dry.

Dylin Redling: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: At the end of the day, it’s about a long-term play. But I like this activity as a concept. You know, I remember I had a great Econ101 teacher that had us do a similar activity. And it’s very memorable because it also leads to many other conversations like well, what type of influence does my marketing have? Or I thought this was going to go this way, and it didn’t go this way. Maybe I had some overconfidence in my selection of things. So why is diversification important? So I think, again, reading it and doing it, two very, very different things. And I think people experiencing this firsthand, especially you think of an 8- to 12-year-old, a very kinesthetic learner, right, hands-on experience that moment, be able to learn through that experience. Allison, as I went through the book, many times I thought to myself, man, what if I would have had some of this information earlier? What if I would have had this in middle school or high school or perhaps even earlier? And shoutout to my parents, who did an awesome job of the foundations, grew up in a small business, felt like I had a little bit of a head start. But outside of some K-12 programs and in higher education, I would say it’s largely absent, maybe some elective courses or some opportunities. And so I can’t help but think like, why aren’t we doing more of this? Why aren’t we covering more of this in a K-12 education? I mean, this type of book, this type of experience, these types of activities would be a home run in teaching kids about money. Here, we’re taking 8-12 investing, but obviously we all know it’s broader than that as well. So question here, I’m not asking you to solve the personal finance educational system woes, but why do you think this is not more foundational to our educational system in terms of personal finance education?

Allison Tom: Right. So I think part of it is that our generation didn’t really learn this either. And so as the educators come up with their curriculum, I think honestly, a lot of adults are really intimidated by personal finance. And so it’s something that seems easy enough for them to cut out of the education system as an elective because well, if they don’t understand it, then kids aren’t going to understand it. And if they’re intimidated by it, then kids are definitely going to not understand it and be intimidated by it, so let’s not even talk about it, which actually is one of the reasons why we thought it was important to write the book. We didn’t get this education when we were growing up. I know my parents are second-generation immigrants. And so the money lessons that they learned were from their parents, who grew up during the Great Depression. And as immigrants coming over to this country, they just pooled their money and they saved and they saved and they worked 20 hours a day to make money and then they would maybe invest it in the bank, although plenty of my relatives didn’t even bother with that. So my lessons growing up were save and save and save and save. I had a little piggy bank, and I would put all my coins in from the piggy bank, but that was the only thing that I learned. And so it wasn’t until I got to college, and then I had my first credit card that I just — oof. It was bad. I did not understand the concept of paying credit cards and interest rates and late fees and minimum payments. And so, you know, I got in trouble with credit cards after I graduated. And it wasn’t until after that that I thought, oh, I really need to learn more about what’s going on here. And so I started watching some shows on PBS, but by then, you know, I’m in my early 20s at that point. My learning took a lot longer for the habits to become engrained in me. So you know, I really do think that if kids could see this stuff earlier, it would be so much more impactful. You know, I’ve talked to a girlfriend of mine, her daughter is 17 and she read the book and she was like, “Yeah, you know, I’m going to start doing the savings plan when I get a job.” My friend was laughing because she’s like, my daughter doesn’t have a job. But she was just like, she got inspired by it, and I thought, oh, if we could just get kids to learn this stuff sooner —

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Allison Tom: All the great things we could do with them. So hopefully. Hopefully.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I love that, to that point, Allison. I think it was early in the book, you have the reader go through an activity where they identify problems, things that could be improved upon, right? And one of the things I often say is that any business is a solution to a problem, and that solution is one that people care about and are willing to pay for. And you know, I love that because I think for a child, like if they can think about, what are some things that could be done better? You know, one of them you proposed in the book, which was really cool because we recently just bought this — or actually we got it as a gift for our kids from our family — is you mention like chess. Really hard game for kids to play, kids to learn. Why isn’t there a solution out there that can make chess easier to play? Sure enough, there is. There’s a card game where you draw cards, you learn the basic moves of chess. So things like that, I think you’re inspiring some of the creative thinking, the problem solving, and laying some of the seeds of entrepreneurship or even for those that don’t own their own company, which would be the vast majority of folks, intrepreneurship, how can you be a problem solver within your organization? And how can you create solutions that make you a valuable asset within that organization? I want to shift gears a bit to connect some of the work that you have in “Investing for Kids” with what you cover in your site, Retireby45.com. You mentioned your other FIRE book as well. And I got the impression that you both, you believe that everyone could put together — especially an 8- to 12-year-old reading the “Investing for Kids” book — put together a plan for FIRE, again Financial Independence Retire Early — by the age of 45. So Dylin, our listeners know firsthand that time in the market equals success, and that compound interest, as you mentioned in the book, is the eighth wonder of the world. So we know the math is possible if someone starts at an early age. But why do you think it’s important that someone plans for FIRE by the age of 45?

Dylin Redling: Whether you’re able to retire in your 40s or your 50s or you do a traditional retirement in your 60s or even beyond, Allison’s dad, for example, is 70 now — or slightly older — and has no intentions of stopping working even though Allison suggests that he stop and enjoy life. But he’s got a job that he really loves. And so there’s a lot of people out there that are like that. So we love our FIRE lifestyle and the fact that we left our W2 jobs in our 40s, but we know it’s not for everybody. But what we do also know is that the concepts of Financial Independence are good for anybody, no matter when you might want to retire. And those concepts are really about doing the right thing with your money. So it starts with saving, it starts with being somewhat frugal — and when we say frugal, we don’t mean living a spartan lifestyle. We just mean not going crazy with money with spending on things that you don’t want or that you don’t need or you feel like you have to keep up with the Joneses and get a brand new SUV every two years. So there’s that, and of course investing wisely. And you know, we have another story that we write out on our blog, which kind of I think can be somewhat inspiring to people who are in their 20s and maybe haven’t really done anything with their finances yet. We, as Allison alluded to earlier, kind of our story is we met in New York and then we moved to San Francisco. And we were in our mid-20s at the time. And we still hadn’t invested a dollar yet. And it wasn’t until our late 20s that we got “real jobs” with a 401k plan and that sort of thing. And so it wasn’t until our late 20s that we really started investing. And our entire investment life cycle, if you will, was about 17 years from our late 20s to our early 40s. And in that time, we just were so diligent about dollar cost averaging, we did — we invested into both our 401k, our IRA, and a taxable account once we got some extra income literally on a weekly basis for years and years and years, no matter what the market was doing. Through the 2001 .com crash because we’re both working in that industry and of course through the ‘08-’09 recession. Never stopped. And so those kind of habits, again, are good for anybody no matter what your retirement goals are, just really those financial habits are going to put you in a great position.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I’m glad you shared that, Dylin. One of the questions I had for you was I read your story of not really late 20s, early 30s getting serious about investing, but retired or achieving FIRE by 43, 44, so short window of time, right? We tend to think of a very long trajectory of savings. You mentioned 17 years. So my question was what was the secret sauce? And if I heard you correctly, it was tax-advantaged accounts, 401k’s, IRAs, some taxable accounts and dollar cost averaging and being consistent. Is that fair?

Dylin Redling: Yeah. You know, a couple other things we did — we did the phrase “side hustle” is really popular now. But when we did it, we just called it a side business. This was in the mid-2000s. I came up with an affiliate marketing business that I ran on the weekends. And it ended up being a third income for us. So there’s things like maximizing your income. And then another concept — I’ll shoot it over to Allison to talk about — is geographic arbitrage. And that helped us kind of move about nine years ahead of schedule. Do you want to talk about how we did that?

Allison Tom: Sure. So geographic arbitrage has a lot of different meanings in the — for people. And the gist of it is that you leverage your current salary and move to a lower cost location. And so most people think that is oh, I’m going to make my United States salary and move to Thailand or Costa Rica, where the cost of living is exceedingly low. We did it by moving from San Francisco to Oakland, California, which geographically is a 10-mile difference but at the time, we were able to save about 50% on our housing costs.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Allison Tom: So yeah, it was pretty insane. For being 10 miles away, two or three train stops away on our BART system, we were able to pay off our condo in Oakland in cash by selling our place in San Francisco, which alleviated all the mortgage payments, the increase in property payments and our insurance went down as well. So that, Dylin calculated later, saved us probably about nine years of working because our mortgage in San Francisco was so astronomical that just cutting 50% off just pushed us into the financial independence sphere that much sooner. So it’s things like that. Obviously not everybody is going to be able to save 50% of their housing by moving 10 miles away, but there are other ways to do it. You can do things like house hacking where if you have space on your property, you could build an extra unit and rent it out or if you have an extra bedroom, you could rent it out and have a roommate or Airbnb it. So there are ways tod do it without going through the extreme example that we had. So there are plenty of ways to cut costs in your life that are relatively painless, that we’ve talked about all the time, so there are just different ways to do it to achieve FIRE. And some people don’t even choose to do the early retiring like my father is the example. So retirement is really more of the optional part. We’re not saying you have to retire, you have to leave your job and just sit around drinking mojitos all day long, although it’s certainly not a bad lifestyle. But you know, the retiring part is up to the individual.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I’m glad you said that, Allison, because I know many of our listeners love what they’re doing as pharmacists and they worked hard, and they got a doctorate degree and they have student loan debt and they invested in that education. And so my read is that many pharmacists are captivated by the idea and the power of financial independence. And you know, I believe that’s a goal we all should strive for for a variety of reasons with RE, Retire Early, being one of those perhaps reasons, but other things as well in terms of why that financial independence may be important. So nine years, nine years was estimated from that one decision, which I’m coming full-circle, Allison, about what you shared at the beginning of Dylin being in the hospital with double pneumonia. And when you start to think about the value of time, I mean, nine years and doing some of those calculations and what does that mean for one’s personal situation, I think that’s a really powerful example of taking something that can be mathematical or objective and looking at it in a different mindset. If we were to make this move or this move, what does that mean for us in terms of timeline to retirement, working part-time, pursuing another opportunity, what does that mean for one’s goals towards financial independence? I’m glad you discussed geographic arbitrage because one of the things we see in our profession in pharmacy is that unfortunately, a pharmacist’s income usually does not translate with cost of living. So here I am in the Midwest and that income for a pharmacist in the Bay Area might be a little bit more for a similar role but nowhere near the cost of living difference between Columbus, Ohio and San Francisco, California. So I think this is a move, especially for many of our listeners that might be saying, you know, ‘I’m making a decent income, but I’ve got a lot of work to do on student loans, I want to invest, I want to buy a home, I want to do this or that. And at the end of the day, there’s only so much income.’ So is a move, whether it’s near, within 10 miles, or something a little bit more significant, is that an option that somebody may be able to pursue? Allison, what have you guys been doing since achieving FIRE? You know, what’s been the goals, what’s been the priority, how have you been spending time? I think that’s one of the other common objections that comes up is like, if I retire at 45, like I don’t even know what I would do with my time. Tell us a little bit about that journey since you guys have achieve FIRE.

Allison Tom: So it’s funny, we — so we FIREd quite by accident. We were both working in tech startups, and Dylin got laid off and then I got laid off about five weeks afterwards. And so we kind of took the time after we were both laid off to travel a little bit. That was one of the things that two people who are working can’t always schedule, coordinate their schedules, to take some time off. And so we thought, alright, this is the perfect time. We went to Europe for two weeks and did a cruise around the Mediterranean and had a blast and then came back and thought, alright, we’ve got to get back to work. So we went about — we went on interviews and we just saw just how miserable people were at their jobs. Just so stressed out, and I interviewed with this one guy who was like, “You need to tell me who said this about us so I can go talk to them.” I’m like, I don’t want to work for you. You’re scary. And so you know, the three months turned into six months and then nine months and then Dylin figured out kind of like back of the envelope math, figured out that we could actually retire without having to go back to work anymore. He stumbled into the 4% Rule, which we still hadn’t at that point heard the term FIRE before. You know, the first few years we did a fair amount of traveling domestically. Like we would go back to visit his mother and my father, who both live on the East Coast, which is one of the things you just don’t get time to do when you’re working is spending time with family. And so you know, if we would go back East, we would maybe spend two days with each parent because they don’t live that close to each other. And now, we can actually go and spend a week with each parental unit. And that makes a big difference because, you know, they’re getting older and living across the country, it’s harder to connect with them. So we do a lot more slow travel where we don’t have to feel rushed between people. And then it’s funny because we — our retirement has changed as time goes by. So for people who are concerned that oh, what am I going to do with my time? Your time is yours. You can now make your own schedule. And that, to me, is the beauty of not just financial independence, it’s financial freedom because you can choose what you want to do. And so you know, the first two years were traveling domestically, the second two years were more about traveling internationally. And we had two cats that passed away at 19. So for us, they were like our kids. And so we did not do a lot of traveling away from them until they passed on. And so once they did, we’re like, alright, we’re going to go crazy and go travel around the globe. And so the last — and then the last two years have been focused on writing books and going to financial conferences and kind of learning from others and then applying that and communicating out to audiences like yours. That’s the beauty of the time being yours is you can make it whatever you want to do. We also do a lot more work with our community that we never had time to do when we were working. So we’re a lot more invested in our neighborhood, and we spend more time working with businesses in our neighborhood to bring in more business. So having that luxury of time means you can go explore whatever interests pop up. So you know, did we ever think that we would be working with small businesses two years ago? Probably not. But now we are, and we’re advocates for small businesses in our neighborhood, and that’s something we would never have thought we would have done when we first retired.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s very cool. And I read as well your goal of 60 by 60. Sixty countries to visit by the age of 60. If I understand it, you’re about halfway through. Looking forward to following your journey. I’m hopeful you’ll be blogging about it along the way as well. Dylin, I’m going to throw the last question I have over for you. And one of the things I think about when it comes to early retirement and achieving financial independence or the FIRE movement is that it really does require delayed gratification and at times, you mentioned the word frugality earlier. And that frugality can be at various levels. As you mentioned, we’re not necessarily talking spartan type of frugality. My question here though is how do we strike the balance? You know, whether it’s for ourselves or teaching our kids about saving and investing to take care of our future selves but also valuing and making sure we understand that it’s important that we enjoy some of the money along the way as well. I find myself often struggling with this individually of, OK, I know I need to take care of my future self and probably sometimes I do that at the expense of the experiences and the enjoyment today. And I think striking this balance is really important. What are your thoughts on that?

Dylin Redling: You know, I’ll actually plug a couple of other books besides ours that I really like. One is “A Simple Path to Wealth” by Janelle Collins, which I highly recommend. And another one is actually one of Allison’s favorites. It has a funny title, it’s “I Will Teach You to Be Rich” by —

Allison Tom: Ramit Sethi.

Dylin Redling: Ramit Sethi. And we saw him speak. He was a keynote speaker at FinCon a couple years ago. And one of the things that he said, which really resonated with me and it goes to your question, is spend liberally on things that you enjoy. But hold back aggressively on things that are not important to you. And it’s a very simple concept. But again, it goes directly to your question, and it’s really — maybe you or your kids or whoever’s thinking about this makes a list. Here are the things I’m passionate about. Here are the things that I really enjoy. I love travel, I like eating out at restaurants, I like entertainment, sports, whatever it is. And I’m going to set my budget to focus on those things. I’m going to be OK — maybe I’ll go to a World Series game because I’m a huge baseball fan. Or I’m going to set a goal to go to every baseball park in America. You know, whatever that goal might be. Conversely, think about the things that aren’t that important to you like maybe a brand new car is not important to you, so you drive your car for 10-20 years and you really just never focus on spending a lot of money on that. And so those are the concepts that I think are something to really think about. And for us, that’s what we’ve always done. When people look at our lifestyle from the outside or even some of our friends, you know, they may think, wow, we’ve always lived in pretty expensive apartments — or condos or houses, so they might think, wow, they spend a lot of money. But if you look a little deeper, like we had a car for almost 20 years. We had a Volkswagen Jetta. We just recently got a new-to-us couple years old Toyota Corolla. So there’s an example where we just — you know, having a brand new car wasn’t that important to us. But again, we have the 60 by 60 goal. So travel is really important to us. And we have no problem spending that extra money to go travel for a few months and really try to see the world because that’s something that we’re passionate about. That being said, when we do travel, we try to — we don’t stay at four-star hotels because part of our kind of nature is to also find some deals here and there and to just spend consciously, to just spend our money kind of wisely.

Allison Tom: We prefer to spend money on the experiences rather than the hotel room that we’re putting our suitcase in.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. And I was at that keynote that you were at, and with Ramit, and I’ll never forget it. I mean, the concept that he talks about in “I Will Teach You to Be Rich,” money dials, right, is find the things that are of value to you and dial it up. And find the things that are not and dial them down. And you know, I remember hearing that, and I was like, heck yeah. It just makes so much sense. And you know, to the comment of experiences and even the literature really showing happiness related to money, it’s experience and giving typically are the areas where we see that biggest connection. So Allison and Dylin, I really appreciate you guys taking time to come on the show. Kudos on the work here with “Investing for Kids,” I really enjoyed it, as well as the work that you’re doing at Retireby45.com and your other book, “Start Your FIRE: A Modern Guide to Early Retirement.” As it relates to the book “Investing for Kids,” I hope our audience will pick up a copy of this, available at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, many other online vendors as well. I really did find it engaging, it was rich with relevant information, practical exercises to apply the information, as I mentioned, certainly does not look, feel, or read like a textbook. And so I think many in our community are going to find it helpful. What’s the best place for our audience to go to follow the work that the two of you are doing?

Dylin Redling: Well, our — I’ll plug our website, and I’ll have Allison plug our Instagram account. Retireby45.com is our website, and we blog there on a once or twice a month with a fresh new blog post, and we have a bunch of stuff on there, courses and other things. And then Allison’s been working on really putting together a pretty cool Instagram account.

Allison Tom: So we have Instagram and Twitter both @retire_by_45. Yeah, it’s been an interesting challenge trying to get into the social media, the social media space.

Tim Ulbrich: Very good. We will link to both of those in the show notes as well as the Retireby45.com as well as the books that we’ve mentioned, not only your books but the others that you referenced as well. So the two of you, thank you again very much for your time. I really appreciate it.

Allison Tom: Thanks, Tim. It’s great.

Dylin Redling: Thanks.

Allison Tom: O-H

Dylin Redling: I-O

Tim Ulbrich: I-O!

Dylin Redling: Thanks, Tim. Great talking to you.

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YFP 200: An Interview with Sarah Fallaw of The Next Millionaire Next Door

Posted on April 22, 2021November 2, 2022 by yfpadmin

An Interview with Sarah Fallaw of The Next Millionaire Next Door

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Dr. Sarah Stanley Fallaw, co-author of The Next Millionaire Next Door and founder of DataPoints LLC, a behavioral assessment advisor fintech company, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about the surprising secrets of those who achieve millionaire status, how psychology and personal finance intersect, and why it is so important to understand your financial behaviors and tendencies.

About Today’s Guest

Sarah Stanley Fallaw, Ph.D. is the co-author of The Next Millionaire Next Door and the founder of DataPoints LLC, a behavioral assessment advisor fintech company. DataPoints created the industry’s first assessment of wealth potential based on The Millionaire Next Door. Her research on psychometrics and financial psychology has been featured in conferences and publications including Financial Planning Review, Industrial and Organizational Psychology, and the Journal of Financial Services Professionals. Sarah received her Ph.D. in Applied Psychology from the University of Georgia in 2003. Learn more about her work and research at www.datapoints.com.

Summary

On this episode, Tim Ulbrich welcomes Dr. Sarah Stanley Fallaw, co-author of The Next Millionaire Next Door and founder of DataPoints LLC to the show to discuss the secrets and behaviors of millionaires in the United States. Dr. Fallaw shares her experience of co-authoring The Next Millionaire Next Door with her father and outlines some of the behavioral research that went into writing it.

Tim and Sarah mention the money personality assessment tool offered by DataPoints that both pharmacists and those in the field of financial advising can use to better understand personal factors that influence spending, saving, and wealth. Tim mentions how when taking this assessment, he was surprised by some of the questions and ultimately how certain personal characteristics can influence financial decisions.

The key points and concepts from The Next Millionaire Next Door are also discussed and related back to the career and financial situation of today’s pharmacists. Concepts included in the discussion include myths about wealth and income, perceptions about wealth and how wealth is built in America, external influences and factors that can ultimately affect our wealth, the typical lifestyle that most millionaires in our country live, treating personal finance like a business, and the investing patterns of millionaires.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Dr. Fallaw, thank you so much for joining us today.

Sarah Fallaw: Thank you for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, I’ve been looking forward to having you on the show and really excited to have you on as a special guest. This is our 200th podcast, so a big moment for us in the YFP community. And you joined us way back on Episode 035, the Science of Behavioral Finance, that went live back in February 2018. So we’re three years ago where you and Tim Baker, our Director of Financial Planning, talked about how your company DataPoints applies lessons from the book “The Millionaire Next Door,” written by your father, Thomas Stanley. And you two, Tim and you also dug into different factors that measure the propensity to build wealth. So today, we’re going to dig a little bit further into that conversation, talk about behavioral finance, the applications to one’s financial plan. But let’s start if you could share a little bit more about your background, your training, your career, and the work that you’re doing with DataPoints.

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me on this milestone episode. That’s exciting for you guys. You know, as you mentioned, obviously connected through my father to “The Millionaire Next Door” and research on wealth. But my background is in industrial psychology. So I’m a psychometrician, if you will, by training. And really, the focus that I’ve had throughout my career is trying to understand characteristics and competencies of individuals. And then of course, in the later part of my career, taking that research that went into “The Millionaire Next Door,” and saying, well, how can I help people understand themselves, particularly clients? How can I help the advisor understand how a client might behave or make decisions about finances related to their personality and things like that. And so that’s my background and how I got into this area.

Tim Ulbrich: So how does one — I have to know — how does one get interested in industrial psychology and become a psychometrician? How does that happen?

Sarah Fallaw: Yes, yeah, how does that happen? Well, you start off in clinical psychology, thinking that you want to help everyone. And then you realize or recognize that you might be better suited for the statistical side of psychology, and so that’s how you end up in industrial psychology. No, really, I felt a calling to be in the business side and certainly industrial psychologists are the ones that are applying psychological principles to the workplace, how do you hire people, how do you develop them, how do you have a great organizational culture? All those things. And so that was really what I was attracted to in the field of psychology and then psychometrics kind of came alongside that really using survey research, test development, all those kinds of things to understand individuals. So that’s how you fall into that. You just kind of start on one path, and you end up on another.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, I really appreciate that. You know, we say often on this show and I know from personal experience, so much of personal finance is behavioral. And we’re going to dig into that a little bit further. And I love the mission that you have and the work that you’re doing at DataPoints, helping advisors understand the client money mindset and how that obviously then connects to the financial plan. And you’ve got a really interesting quiz tool that really helps folks understand their money personality. We’ll link to that in the show notes. Folks can find that at DataPoints.com/personality. So tell us a little bit about this personality test, this money personality assessment and really how it can help someone learn about their financial behaviors or perhaps help the advisor who is working with that client to understand how those behaviors connect with the financial plan.

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, absolutely. So what we know from research, not only obviously that my father conducted but lots of academic research in the fields of financial planning as well as psychology, that certain characteristics about ourselves lead to great money behaviors or maybe not so great choices. So the test that you mentioned is one that measures five factors of personality, which is a really well-researched model, so you know, how are we all different in terms of our attitudes, values, experiences, that kind of thing. And they break down into those five areas that you’ll see things like conscientiousness, so obviously as pharmacists, conscientiousness is of utmost importance. But it’s also an important characteristic when we’re talking about saving and spending and making good financial decisions. So it’s actually predictive of someone’s net worth, it’s predictive of financial success. Some of the other characteristics, things like agreeableness. So how do we get along with other people? Are we there caring for others or are we sort of out for ourselves? What we find, unfortunately, is that those that tend to be a little more agreeable are also those that maybe spend a little bit more than they should. And that makes sense, right? Like we want to pick up the check. We want to take care of this, that kind of thing. So understanding some of those — those are just two of the five — but understanding those characteristics can help you understand what you might do in certain situations and then maybe how to avoid those situations or how to prepare for that situation the next time. So those are some of the things that you can learn about yourself and certainly then, again, if you’re a financial advisor, you can use that information to help your clients as well.

Tim Ulbrich: I really enjoyed this, taking it myself and reading the report and findings. It took me about, I don’t know, 7 or 8 minutes to get through it. And it was different than what I was expecting. You know, I’ve taken lots of money self-assessment tools that are out there, and I think often they’re focused on like your risk tolerance and how conservative or how aggressive. And this really threw me for a loop. I mean, questions like, “I enjoy reflecting on challenges, problems, or large issues,” or “I tend to understand others’ feelings and thoughts. And at first as I was taking it, I was like, how is this going to connect to the financial plan? And then when it got to those five personality buckets that you mentioned, the extraversion, the conscientiousness, the openness, the agreeableness, and the neuroticism, I was like, OK, I’m starting to see the connection and obviously the report and the guide talks about that further. But I can certainly see how one’s awareness of these as well as their coach’s awareness of these could be really helpful as it comes to developing their plan. And I was feeling good, Sarah, about myself when I saw the high conscientiousness, as I suspect many pharmacists would.

Sarah Fallaw: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: And not so good then when I saw oh man, agreeableness, not so high, and neuroticism, a little bit higher. But you’ve got to dig deeper, right, than just the terms that are there.

Sarah Fallaw: Exactly. Yeah. And there’s always a good — a positive and a negative about any score that you have. So obviously taking that openness to experience one as an example, if you are high on it, it means you’re creative, you like new and different experiences. If you’re low on it, you like things to be the same. And so you know, those can be good or bad depending on the situation that you’re in. Certainly for accumulating wealth, it tends to be better if you’re more of a traditional, I like things the way they are. But again, it can be a good thing for your mental health to be trying new things and experiencing new foods and all kinds of things like that.

Tim Ulbrich: Very good. And let’s shift gears to talk about the work of “The Millionaire Next Door” and the follow-up, “The Next Millionaire Next Door,” which was, as I mentioned to you before we hit record, really both of those books have been transformational for me in my own personal journey. And a lot of what we do and the philosophy of what we do at YFP and how we approach our education and what we believe in I think aligns very well with those two resources and the research that you’ve found and obviously a strong connection there to behavioral finance and the work that you’re doing at DataPoints. So let’s start, I suspect many of our listeners have heard of “The Millionaire Next Door,” arguably one of the best personal finance books and resources of all time, and give us a 10,000-foot overview of that book. What was your father’s aim for the book? And ultimately, high level, what were the findings?

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, so it was written — I’ll start with that sort of aim question portion of it. You know, he had spent his lifetime studying how individuals build and sustain wealth. So he studied affluent populations in the United States. He was a marketing researcher. And so his goal with “The Millionaire Next Door” was to help individuals understand that there was this kind of component of affluent America, which was made up of people that did this on their own. It wasn’t just the case that they had rich uncles and aunts and that they were born into a certain kind of family. There still to this day was a large component of millionaires who were self-made. And he felt like there were so many unusual aspects of this group that he wanted to share it with individuals. Early in his career, he was teaching, he was consulting, he was working really, really hard and saw several of his peers do that too. He felt like if he could give people this information that maybe that could save them from some of this constant income earning-spending, income earning-spending cycle that they were in. And so that was really the aim. But again, the 10,000-foot view of the book is really that there are certain characteristics that allow individuals to build wealth over time. And again, a lot of times it has to do with the career you choose, with the spouse you choose, with the place you start living when you first buy a home and things like that. And there are, again, these certain characteristics that millionaires exhibit that allow them to build and sustain wealth over time.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I remember one of the — I can remember one of the tables reading that book, but there’s the big-ticket items like your career, obviously the spouse, the home that you live in, the neighbors and the community that you’re in, all those things that influence your spending patterns and behaviors. And then there’s some other things that may not seem as large on the surface, the jeans you buy, you know, the cars that you drive, things like that that can have a very profound impact and perhaps a window into other spending patterns and behaviors. I personally find, Sarah, that the research that affirms the opportunity for folks to really create their own opportunities and to become self-made, I find that very refreshing and I suspect many of our listeners will who are facing sometimes $150,000-200,000 of student loan debt upon graduation. They’ve got a great income to work with, but they can often feel like they’re starting at point like, oh man, forget about it. Like is there even an opportunity going forward? And I think the compound effect of being intentional with those micro decisions along the way is going to be really important. So why the need for a second edition? Tell us about “The Next Millionaire Next Door” and ultimately how you decided that this resource was necessary as a follow-up.

Sarah Fallaw: You know, that kind of came out of a couple of different things. You know, No. 1, it had been nearly 20 years I think at the time when my father started talking about that, sort of a new book. And it was time to look at some new data, to look at some new aspects of spending, you know, social media was not a thing, right, back in 1996. That was — no one knew that we would have Facebook back then. And so there were a lot of different aspects that he wanted to consider and I was serving in the role of the statistician, I was going to do the survey data collection and the analysis and those kinds of things. And it really wasn’t designed necessarily to be a second edition. You know, he’d had that question asked of him many times by publishers and things like that. But instead, he wanted to really take a fresh look at things. And so yeah, you know, it started off as something that we were collaborating on. And then as you know, he passed away in 2015, was killed by a drunk driver. So I had the privilege of finishing the book without him but certainly the beginning of it and the ideas for it came from him. So yeah, that’s kind of where it came from.

Tim Ulbrich: And there really are so many “Aha!” moments throughout the book. I found myself in both “The Millionaire Next Door” and “The Next Millionaire Next Door,” really shaking my head in agreement with the writing, the research findings, and I think analytical pharmacists and scientists will appreciate the research and the power that’s behind it because often, you know, personal finance education and advice can feel squishy at times. And to really have some research supporting these findings that we can then try to align our behaviors with to give ourself a chance of success I think is very refreshing. So I want to dig into some of the key findings in the book, and I’m going to hit a couple highlights in different chapters of the book hopefully to give our audience really just a sampling of the outstanding content that is throughout and then of course would encourage folks to pick up their own copy of “The Next Millionaire Next Door.” So in Chapter 1, titled “The Millionaire Next Door is Alive and Well,” you share a truth that is so important and I think can often be looked over or easily confused. And that is that wealth is not income. And income is not wealth. So tell us about what this means, what the differences are between income and wealth.

Sarah Fallaw: Yep, absolutely. So I think — and again, you would think after 20 years, 25+ years now, people would see the difference. But it’s hard for even me and certainly my teenagers to even see that. But the truth is how much we make has very little to do with how much we keep. And that’s the idea. You know, we have this confusion in our brain, we see individuals with nice cars or in the best houses or whatever it might be, and we equate spending to having money in the bank. And unfortunately, they’re not. And I think a lot of us, particularly when we come out of grad school, when I came out of grad school, and we have a great big salary and we’re excited about that, you know, again, particularly for pharmacists, it’s just not the same. So we confuse that level of income that we’re receiving with being wealthy, which leads to us spending above our means in terms of our wealth and can lead to a whole host of things. So I think that that’s a mindset that, gosh, if we could teach our kids that, if we could learn that early on in college or grad school, before we have that income that comes in, we would be better off for a whole host of reasons. But yes, that continues to be a struggle. When we work with advisors, that’s one of their struggles, particularly with working with younger clients that are just newly out of school and things like that too.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and if you can crack that nut on teaching your teenagers, let me know so I can teach my boys as well.

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah. Me too.

Tim Ulbrich: Such an important thing of the mindset and a whole separate conversation about what may work, what may not work, and doing that. So you know, I think of pharmacists here, Sarah, and one of the things that pharmacists are blessed with is a great income, often at a very young age, you know, of course I’m overgeneralizing for a moment, but typically pharmacists will come out of school if they go through four years of undergrad, four years of their doctorate training, perhaps some residency after that, you know, still late 20s or maybe early 30s, making a good six-figure income. But one of the challenges is that many pharmacists’ income may remain relatively flat through their career. And so I think this point is all the more important that, you know, I know from personal experience, many of our listeners know that as time goes on, things become more expensive. You know, just generally speaking, right? Our goals, our aspirations, perhaps children, families that are growing, other things that we want to do. And so if our income is not going to see an exponential growth, then we’ve got to really try to be diligent right out of the gates to make sure we establish those behaviors that are going to allow us to create margin. And I know for my wife Jess and I, one of the “Aha!” moments we had early on in our career is OK, good income, but if income comes in and income goes out and it’s not sticking, which I think is really what net worth is a good indicator of what’s sticking, then we’re going to be in trouble ultimately with being able to achieve our long-term financial goals. So net worth, a really good indicator I think of one’s overall financial health. And I think this mindset that you talk about in Chapter 1 is so important. Now, in Chapter 2, “Ignoring the Myths,” you say that in order to build wealth, we have to discontinue or ignore the myths of how wealth is built in America. What do you mean here? And how can we take our financial future into our own hands?

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, you know, there are a couple of things that go along with this, certainly one of them being that, again, wealth isn’t the same as income and things like that. But you know, there are a lot of kind of, again, mindsets from whether we adopted those as children or adolescents, from the life experiences we’ve had, or that’s what we see in the media, that can keep us from kind of owning the building of wealth, right? So how, for example, if I take myself and say, well, I’m a woman, how can I run a fintech company? Well all of a sudden, I’ve created this sort of artificial, if you will, hurdle for me to get past in order to make the right decisions and to continue on. And it’s the same with building wealth. So if we kind of adopt the mentality that ‘Well, I have all this debt, there’s no way I can get out of it,’ or again, for example, ‘I’m a woman,’ ‘I’m a minority,’ or something like that or ‘I’m in this particular group, I won’t be able to get past that,’ that’s one of the things I think that differentiates those that tend to be financially successful is they see past that no matter what group they belong to or kind of what background they’ve experienced in the past, they’re able to move past that. And so there are a lot of those myths, and they have to do more with like financial attitudes, and that can prevent individuals from actually working to achieve goals because they view wealth as something that can’t achieve.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think what you’re sharing here reminds me of so often we, like many other I’m sure financial planners, get questions like, “Hey, what should I do with my student loans? What should I do about this investment? What should I do about that?” And I think what this is highlighting is often we have to really unwind and understand, you know, what are the money scripts that we’ve been told over time? I’ve heard somebody reference it like, you know, whether it’s family interactions, whether it’s societal types of stories that we’ve been told or believed, we all have some script, we have some baggage with us about how we view and interpret money. And that of course has a fundamental influence on how we spend, on how we save, on how we approach this with a significant other. And we’ve got to be able to understand some of that I think and be able to really set goals and understand some of these behavioral pieces before we start to attack the x’s and o’s of the financial plan. And so I hope folks will hear some of this and take a step back and say OK, what are some of my own behaviors that I need to better understand that if I take the time to do so will have a real big influence on how I approach my financial plan. Chapter 3, you talk about the influences on wealth. And you know, one of the questions I think of here is what outside influences may impact one’s ability to build wealth? So how does our upbringing, how do our friends, how does our spouse really play a role in this? And what does the research say?

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, so again, one of the key kind of indicators or predictors of financial success is being able to ignore or to not be influenced. But you know, again, there are a lot of different ways that others can make us feel as if we are making certain decisions. So you know, certainly we can talk about upbringing, we see that if your mom or your father but mostly your mother has the most strongest influence, if they tended to be frugal growing up, you will be frugal in later in life, that kind of thing. But we also see, again, social influence. We see that particularly related to social media but also kind of where you plant yourself in terms of your neighborhood, right? So that can have an undue effect on things like car purchases and things like that. And then again, your spouse, we know that millionaires tend to have spouses that are frugal. So even if they’re out maybe running a business or they’re the primary breadwinner, their spouse tends to be frugal. And we know that that can influence financial decisions in the future as well. So certainly influence can be a good thing, but it can also lead to some pretty poor spending decisions as well. And that’s really where we see the influence. We also see it in investing. So if you think about Gamestop and you see like how everyone kind of behaves when things get really exciting, we can be influenced into some of that. And we’ve seen that that can be a good thing, but it certainly can be a negative as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, we’ve all been told of the circle of influence, right, and those five or six or whatever the number is people that are around us and the impact that they can have. I think it’s no different here when it comes to money. Sarah, I’m curious, I have to know, when you mentioned the research with mom, you know, I’m thinking of my wife Jess really taking a huge role in raising our four boys, like why is that? You know, what is the connection there with the research of the mother and the spending habits that are passed on?

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, you know, it’s not only the spending habits but career influence as well. But I think it’s primarily because of the time spent. So the research that we’ve done primarily with those that are in like their 30s, 40s, you know, you think about that in terms of well, when were they children or adolescents? Well, it still was the case in most cases their mothers were the ones that were home. So I think that that’s why we see that influence more so than the father. But again, we know that if a mother was frugal, if she was showing good financial behaviors growing up and then I mentioned the career piece as well, it’s also the case that if you had — as a mom or as a parent, if you are helping your child understand their career options and what they might do in the future, that can also be a predictor of income and net worth in the future as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Sarah, one of the personal struggles that I have is around the concept of frugality. And you know, I think that there’s certainly a benefit in frugality of being able to make sure being intentional, we can allocate money towards our goals, we can assure we’re taking care of our future selves, but you know, one of the things I hear our planning team say often, which I really admire, is that it can’t just be about the 1s and 0s in the bank account. So if we do a great job of squirreling away $3 or $4 or $5 million but we’re miserable for 30 or 40 years, like so what? What’s the purpose of that? And so there’s this reconciliation of, you know, we’ve got to be frugal to take care of our future self, but I think we’ve also got to make sure we’re prioritizing and enjoying things along the way that drive us to some of the greatest happiness and value. And so I would just love to hear your personal thoughts as I know a lot of it points to the concept of frugality, like what are your thoughts on that reconciliation between taking care of your future self but also making sure we enjoy it along the way?

Sarah Fallaw: You know, I would say a couple things about that. First and foremost, I think you’re right that many of us aren’t really super excited about being in a spartan lifestyle for their entire life and then having all this money left over when they’re 80. That doesn’t sound great. I think that one of the things I’ve learned personally but then also learned through the research and the work that we do is that there are certain individuals, certain clients, certain people, that love being frugal, that sort of get a thrill out of kind of living that way. And then there are others of us that say, “Well, how long will I have to do this?” or “How can I make this as easy as possible?” So I’ll say a couple of things about that. No. 1, I think that as spouses, you have to make sure you’re on the same page, recognize and respect each other’s viewpoint on those things, make sure that there’s room for if the spouse isn’t really excited about being frugal all the time, make sure that there’s room throughout your relationship and throughout your lifetime to enjoy some of the fruits of your labor but then also have respect for the spouse that really does want to make sure that they have everything ready in the future and is OK camping out outside for their spring break and things like that. So that’s what we’ve sort of learned personally but then also, again, through the experiences of our advisors is to understand that about yourself early on, to communicate that, and then again to make sure that the plan that you put in place acknowledges both members of the household.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think this connects so well back to the money mindset concept and the money personality test and really understanding this individually as well as the planner working with the client and the importance of that. In Chapter 4, “Freedom to Consume,” you know, one of the things you talk about there, which I think is a timely topic right now given what the real estate market looks like, which is en fuego —

Sarah Fallaw: Crazy.

Tim Ulbrich: — is home buying. And you know, I think this is a time where I know I’ve talked with many pharmacists over the last six months that are like, ‘I’m looking to buy a home, but I’ve talked with one out in Washington recently, I’m expecting to put $100,000 over asking,’ just kind of is what it is in the market. So this feels like something in the time that might kind of get away from us in terms of where it fits in with the rest of our goals. So talk to us about the research and what you found in terms of the cost of homes that millionaires are living in.

Sarah Fallaw: Typically what we see is that millionaires are — they’re not living in $1 million homes typically. So the majority of them or many of them are living in homes that are less in terms of the value. So we found — I think it was that the current home value for most millionaires — again, this data was taken from 2016 — that it was $850,000, which was significantly higher than in 1996 when I think it was somewhere around $300,000. But you know, inflation, things like that. So I think that that’s one of the important factors. I think also, just from — and again, I’ll use the conscientiousness, you could say frugality, it’s a lot of different things, but I think that millionaires and those that are really savvy about money recognize the costs in moving, the costs in making those large-scale financial decisions. So you know, we have friends and family here in Atlanta, the market is the same as well, you know, where people are — the asking price is just the start. And what we’re seeing is that there’s sort of this excitement about change, excitement about potentially trying to time the market. And I think that millionaires tend to be a little more conservative, maybe like I said, conscientious, they understand the ramifications of making changes like that, and they aren’t necessarily looking for sort of the next big thing. But again, in general, millionaires are not necessarily living in $1 million houses. It’s not always the case.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, really interesting research in that chapter, not only on home buying, which I know is a topic of significance to our audience, but also on things like how are millionaires spending money on cars and clothing? And in terms of cars, what types of vehicles are they driving? New v. used? Luxury? Models, makes, and everything in between. So Chapter 5, you talk about strengths for building wealth. And one of the things that really stood out to me here is this concept of running your home like a business. So what do you mean here? And how can someone that’s listening start applying these principles?

Sarah Fallaw: So connecting back to my industrial psychology days here, I really viewed building wealth as a job, looked at sort of what it took, the complexities of it, everything from kind of dealing with the mundane tasks — or again, some folks might think these are fun — but mundane tasks of paying bills and maybe helping to do your income tax, depending on if you do it or if someone else does it, you still have to get everything together for it, those kinds of tasks as well as communicating with your spouse and communicating with the rest fo the family when it comes time to budgeting and spending and things like that. There are a whole host of things that make someone really great at the job, and then there are of course other things that can keep people from doing that job well. So in terms of strengths for building wealth and kind of thinking about personal finance as a job, it makes you kind of think about it differently in terms of OK, you know, this doesn’t seem so complex. I can think about the individual tasks I have to do and consider can I do this task well? Maybe my spouse can do this tax better than I can. We have that often happen with the advisors we work with who are using assessments to say OK, hey, you know what? You might be better at this than I am. And that would make more sense for you to take this part of it. So if you can look at the job of building wealth or of managing your personal finances well and look at it as a job, you can think about what it takes to do that job well. So that’s kind of how we certainly view it at DataPoints, that was sort of, again, in the last several months of my father’s life, kind of how we started talking about how I explained what we were doing at DataPoints, had to kind of walk him through all of that. But that’s certainly the way that we think it’s easiest, especially for those of us that don’t have a financial background to understand what it takes to actually build wealth.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that really resonates with me because I think that as many of our listeners know from personal experience, this topic can be very emotional at times. And at times, we all can make irrational decisions that often we look back and say, what in the world were we doing with that? And that’s just part of the learning part of the growth? But I think approaching it like a business, you know, helps make this as objective as possible but also helps with thinking about like systems and processes and automation and how do we make sure we can understand where our biases may be, where our shortcomings may be, and how can we build a plan and a system and have a coach and really surround ourselves to give ourself the best opportunity to succeed as possible. In Chapter 7, “Investing Resources,” a whole lot of things we could talk about here that could be a separate podcast in and of itself, but you know, generally speaking, what do you find from the research in terms of what makes someone a successful investor? What are the characteristics and behaviors that somebody will hold in terms of becoming a successful investor?

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, so that goes back to the personality conversation we were having earlier. There are a couple of different key things that we’ve found, one of them being that emotional side of investing, just like you said, the emotions related to money. What we found is that those that really tend to experience negative emotions more than others, so anxiety or fear, we call that volatility composure. That would be a lower score on that component. Those folks tend to have a harder time, especially when things are chaotic. So — and I’ll put myself in that camp a little bit. So we gravitate towards the news, we want to see what’s happening in the markets, we’re constantly looking at our investments. That kind of personality characteristic can lead us to making maybe not-so-great choices related to our investments, particularly, again, when markets are chaotic. Some of the other components include having a longer term perspective on investing. So for those of us who really view investing as a long-term play, it’s helping us build for the future, those investors tend to have more success than those that look at investing as something that needs to be managed on a daily or a minute-to-minute basis and view it more as maybe fun or entertainment versus something that’s a component of their long-term financial success. So those are a couple of the things. You know, confidence is also something important, particularly in terms of making decisions that align with a long-term strategy. So we don’t want to be overconfident. Those of us that tend to be overconfident are often the ones that are timing the market or trying to, at least, but instead having some level of confidence in our financial choices or investing choices can lead to investing success as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and these really resonate to me, Sarah, as a place where a coach can be incredibly helpful in the process because if you can be self-aware of these things and that individual is also aware of these, they can help challenge you appropriately, they can help you stay the course when you have tribulations in the market, which inevitably are going to happen, and I think certainly can be a valuable resource beyond investing but specifically here as we talk about investing. So we have just literally scratched the surface on so much of the rich content that is in “The Next Millionaire Next Door,” so I would highly encourage our listeners to pick up a copy of that book, which you can do pretty much anywhere that you can find a book, whether that’s online, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, so forth. And Sarah, we’re going to link, as I mentioned earlier, in the show notes to the personality assessment available at DataPoints.com/personality. Folks can take that assessment, download that report, work with their planner, provide that information as well. Beyond that, what is the best place that our listeners can go if they want to learn more about your work or if they want to connect with you?

Sarah Fallaw: Yeah, so definitely on LinkedIn, Sarah Fallaw. I’m on Twitter @sarahfallaw, so all one word. They can also go to our website, just DataPoints.com. We have a blog. We write — generally our audience is financial professionals, but we also write at TheMillionaireNextDoor.com as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. Well, we will link to all of those in the show notes in terms of the social media and the websites as well as the personality data assessment. Sarah, again, thank you so much for your time. This is a special episode for us in Episode 200. And really excited for the opportunity to be able to interview you as a part of the celebration. So thank you very much.

Sarah Fallaw: Thanks for having me.

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