Financial Planning / Podcast

YFP 210: Why Net Worth Matters

Posted on by yfpadmin

Why Net Worth Matters

On this episode, sponsored by APhA, Tim Baker discusses why net worth matters, how to calculate your net worth, and why net worth, not income, is the true indicator of your financial health.

Summary

Net worth can be the most critical data point for determining your financial health. Tim Baker explains how to calculate your net worth, detailing that it can be as simple as the value of your assets minus your liabilities. Tim shares that many people do not know their net worth because few tools available to the general public can quickly aggregate that information. Years ago, you would take out a pen and paper and compare assets to liabilities. Now, you might do that same work in a spreadsheet, but the document wouldn’t be a living document like your net worth truly is. Tim also details which items to include in asset and liability columns and why certain accounts or property might remain off the balance sheet.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker, good to have you back on the show.

Tim Baker: Hey, Tim. Good to be back. Glad to chat with you for a full episode here. Excited to dive into today’s topic.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, really excited to talk about net worth in detail, a concept, a term we’ve mentioned many times but I don’t think we have thoroughly explained, really dug into how is net worth calculated? Why is it so important to the financial plan? And why do we choose to use net worth as one factor in terms of how we price our financial planning services? And so we’re going to talk about all of that and much more on today’s episode. I want to start briefly and mention to our listeners that net worth for me individually is something that is really important when I think back to my own personal journey and financial plan. So 2012 — short story here — 2012, four years after I graduated with my PharmD, my wife Jess making a good, decent, six-figure pharmacist income, and realized at the moment after hearing about this term of net worth, realized that I had a net worth that was -$225,000. And we’re going to talk in a little bit about how to calculate that. But that was a very pivotal moment for Jess and I and our financial plan to say, wait a minute. Income looks good, we don’t feel like things are necessarily off the rails in any way, but mathematically, the net worth is not necessarily showing that we’re in good financial health and good financial position. And so that was a key moment for us to really turn the ship in terms of our financial plan and ultimately led us to paying off the rest of our balance of a pretty big amount of student loan debt and then obviously able to move on to other financial goals from there. So Tim, for you, when did you realize that net worth was not only important to you individually but also really such a primary factor that you built it into the financial planning model that in terms of how we charge clients, that one factor of that is net worth.

Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s a great question, Tim. And I think like you talk about your personal story, like same. Like I’ve gone through phases of my life, I look back even growing up and when I was in high school I was really a good saver. You know, we were kind of told that we had to pay for college and if we wanted to drive and all that kind of stuff that we were kind of on our own. So I kind of went through this period of being like a really good saver. And then when I was at West Point, my first year at the academy, you know, 9/11 happened and our view of the world drastically changed. And I think my spending kind of changed with it. I was kind of more of like a YOLO, not necessarily worried about tomorrow but really focused on today. And from a spending perspective, that didn’t really help me, my balance sheet. So I’ve definitely gone through times in my life where my net worth was not growing. And I don’t know that for a fact, but I just know that some of the debt that I was taking on and that my savings was not growing, that was the case. And I think part of the problem or part of the reason that a lot of people when they hear “net worth,” they’re like, “I don’t even know what mine is,” because there’s not really an app for that, so to speak, where it ties everything together. So we know that hey, we can kind of see what our credit card bills are, and we can kind of see what’s in our checking account and we might look at our 401k from time to time and our home value and what’s left on the mortgage, but really to tie that together, it takes a bit of work to do that. But then I kind of evolved and got into financial planning and really my mindset around money has really changed and really even has changed even more so so I’m less — you know, I kind of went from YOLO to being a financial planner and kind of believing a lot of the things that a lot of the gurus in save, save, save. But I think I’ve also softened on that a little bit in terms of like having a strong financial plan is important and making sure that the numbers are moving in the right direction, the 1s and 0s with regard to your net worth. But that ain’t the end-all, be-all, Tim. And I know we talk about this obviously a lot. It really is an exercise in trying to thread the needle between again, taking care of yourself today, so YOLO, but also making sure that we can retire comfortably and we want to plan for tomorrow. So in terms of planning, you know, when I started Script Financial way back in the day before YFP Planning and our work together, you know, I was looking at what a lot of financial planners were doing, and I came across this income and net worth model. And the more I thought about it, I’m like — and this is as I was trying to, even before I launched my firm that was really dedicated to helping pharmacists with their financial plan — I was like, I really like that because it’s kind of — it captures everything. Like everything financially typically touches the balance sheet, right? So you know, so if you’re thinking of like, what is net worth? Net worth is really, it equals your assets, the things that you own, so think checking, savings, investment accounts, the value of your home, minus your liabilities, which are the things that you owe, so student loan debt, credit cards, the mortgage left on your house, the loan to your crazy uncle Steve for whatever, like those are the things that are the subtractors. And that’s your net worth. And for a lot of pharmacists, especially starting out, that can be super negative. So we’ve had clients that have come on that their net worth is almost -$1 million, but then we also work with clients that are multimillionaires. So to me, it made sense to really focus on the net worth because we can’t control everything about the financial plan, but there are a lot of things that we can control, and I think the net worth kind of encapsulates a lot. And I think it’s the biggest, it’s the best number to focus on as you’re trying to view progress and improvement with regard to the financial plan over time.

Tim Ulbrich: So Tim, as you mentioned, simple calculation, right? Net worth is assets, what you own, minus liabilities, what you owe. Some common questions I think that I know I’ve gotten and I’ve thought myself when people actually start to put pen to paper here are, you know, what assets might I include or not include? I know there’s some thought about like depreciating assets such as a car. Is that something I should include as an asset or not? And then on the liabilities side, things like revolving credit card debt or obviously that could be ongoing with interest accruing but things that pay off each month or those types of things. So when you’re actually getting in the weeds on assets minus liabilities, is this worth really starting to get into ah, is this truly an asset or is this not an asset? This has this tax and so forth. How do you think about what actually falls into these or does not fall into these buckets?

Tim Baker: Yeah, I mean, it goes back to that whole idea of like garbage-in, garbage-out, right, Tim? So the better the data is, the more accurate and the more empowered you can potentially be to make good decisions. Something like a 401k and the value of your home, that’s a no-brainer because for most people, that’s typically the largest assets that is on the balance sheet.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Tim Baker: The home is going to be a little bit of a moving target because, you know, you look at the Zestimate, you might say, “No way that I can get that for my house,” although, right now everything is en fuego. A home — and yeah, something like that, what people will pay for is, that’s the value. So that can be a little bit of a moving target, but I think it’s worth tracking over time. The question about a car, you know, like when we talk about that, we typically don’t include that because in most cases, the value of the car depreciates as the note does in a lot of ways. Now if you buy a car cash, then maybe that’s a different story. But things like a credit card, yeah, I mean, if you have a balance that you’re carrying, I would definitely include that. If you don’t, maybe not, if that’s your behavior. But I think like — so back in the olden days, Tim, this would be like a pen and a notepad, right? So you would put all of your liabilities on the left side, big line down the center, put all your assets, add those up, and then basically what’s the difference, and that’s your net worth. Now, you know, either with Excel or something like that, you can do it a little bit — that’s still manual because you still have to look at these balances. But there are lots of tools out there that you can actually aggregate all of the different financial institutions that you’re using. So for our tool, basically when a client comes on board, once they become a client, the first thing that they do is we send them a welcome email and they get links to their client portal, and they link their checking, their savings, their credit cards, their student loans, their mortgage, basically all of their financial accounts. And for a lot of people, Tim, if you think about it, it’s the first time they’ve seen all of their stuff in one spot. So like how can we plan for things if we don’t really know what we have or we know kind of in the abstract of what we have. But then especially for couples, right?

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Tim Baker: It’s the first time that they see all of their stuff in one spot. So you know, and that’s because we bank over here, we invest over here, our student loans are over here, so to have that on one platform, that is so powerful just to see like where the heck are you? Where are we at? Which is a big component of — it’s half of the equation of when I say, “It depends,” that’s one of the big components is like, where are we at, so that we can advise you on where we want to go. I think the net worth, again, and what you include in that, by and large, you want checking and savings, your cash accounts, investments, the value of your house, student loans, credit cards that you’re carrying, personal debt, mortgage, etc. Some of the other stuff might be if you have like fine art or things like that, you can include that all in there. But you know, depending on how big that is in your portfolio, I know there’s some people that their business is one of their biggest assets that they would account for on their net worth or maybe a cash value life insurance. So it’s going to depend, but I would say don’t get lost in that minutia. I think the act of just going through it and doing it and just seeing — it’s just like budgeting, right? — just seeing what works, what doesn’t work. If you don’t think that tracking x number is important, then don’t do it. So that’s my thought.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, no fine art in this house, Tim, with four boys. So that would get trashed for sure.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: You know, I was just logging on, we use, as you alluded to, we use a tool for our planning clients called eMoney. And one of the things I love about that is, you know, I just logged onto my account, front and center is net worth. Right?

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: And you know, we talk about in the book “Seven Figure Pharmacist” that net worth is really your financial vitals check. It’s a great indicator of your financial health. And I find this helpful because there’s times — and it can be days, sometimes it’s within a month — where you’re like, man, things are going really well or the opposite, I feel like things are falling off the rails financially, right? And then you log on and this allows you to take a step back and say OK, what is the direction that things are going? And what’s happening in the asset column, what’s happening in the liability column? And I think having this front and center and tracking the progress over time and obviously through growing assets and paying down the liabilities, we want to see this number tick up over time. And of course, that’s going to be a big part of what we’re trying to do with the financial planning process. Tim, talk to us for a moment, you know, Sarah Stanley-Fallaw, who we had on, author of “The Next Millionaire Next Door” on Episode 200, in that book and I also remember discussion of this in “Rich Dad Poor Dad,” this idea of income-affluent versus balance sheet-affluent. Talk to us just a little bit at a high level, you know, what those two things are referring to and why this mindset is so important.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think so many — and we talk, we actually talked about this or around this, Tim, in terms of like YFP and the growth of the business where like we have these revenue goals and things like that and we really want to grow YFP and really touch as many pharmacists as we can. But that’s an ego metric, right? You know, to say, hey, we grew this many in terms of in revenue. It’s the same with income. What really matters from a business perspective is profitability. And it’s kind of the same on the individual side is — and we’ve talked about it, although we kind of do talk out of both sides of our mouth. So like one of the things that we’ve said, especially with pharmacists that are coming out that may have bought into the mantra of like, hey, don’t worry about your student loans, don’t worry about your finances, once you get that six-figure income, everything works itself out. And we know that that is not necessarily true. But the flip side of that, Tim, is one of the most valuable things that a pharmacist has with regard to their finances is their income, right? So without income, nothing moves. I think when we look at income affluence versus like balance sheet affluence is that we also know that there’s a lot of people and listeners out there, you can be one of them, I used to be one of these people, you could have friends and family that are like that, is that if you earn $100,000 and that’s the money that comes in the door, $100,000 goes out or $120,000 goes out because it’s kind of an exercise in keeping up with the Joneses. And the whole idea behind “The Next Millionaire Next Door,” which was following up on “The Millionaire Next Door,” is the whole idea is that most millionaires that you come across are not flashing it around. Right? So they’re not driving the $80,000 sports car, they’re not living in certain neighborhoods. So the idea is that this is more about what you keep, right? So to grow wealth over time is to kind of steer clear of some of those more ego things and really direct resources to what matters most. So like I don’t have a problem with a client spending money on a luxury sports car if that lines up with their goals and what their view of a wealthy life is. But we also know that money is a finite thing, so we can’t necessarily have our cake and eat it too in every part of our financial plan. So there is give-and-take. So what we try to do is really shift the idea behind, hey, this is the amount of money that we make to really focus on the net worth and show how that really drives progress and drives the conversation of what is a wealthy life. Because there’s a lot of people that make seven figures worth of income and have nothing to show for it. They’re not necessarily achieving their goals of travel and being able to take care of loved ones and giving and being able to be on track at a certain retirement age. So that is really what financial planning is designed to do is to align this great resource that pharmacists have and direct that towards the goals that they have to make sure that we’re maximizing or optimizing what a wealthy life is for that particular individual.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. And Tim, I want to talk about that further because I think that concept of living a wealthy life, you know, I suspect many pharmacists like myself might be of the mindset of, hey, I can squirrel money away and I can save it for the future, but I think there’s balance when it comes to the financial plan. And I think this is one area, to your credit of the model that we’ve built at YFP, that our planning team does an awesome job, and that’s ensuring that one’s financial plan is considering both the now and the future. As you say, it can’t just be about the 1s and the 0s in your bank account. So we’ve got to find this balance between taking care of your future self but also living a rich life today. And that really comes down to quantitative and qualitative factors of the financial plan. And I think financial planners are known for focusing on the numbers, right? And we’ve really built a process I think that is so important that we’re also covering some of the things that aren’t numbers-based. And certainly they could be number-based if we’re going to determine how we’re going to spend and allocate money, but in terms of goals and things we want to achieve, it’s not about, again, the 1s and 0s in the bank account. So tell us from the planning perspective, what does this actually look like? You know, I’m a new client, I’m meeting with you, like how do I actually begin to tell that story and what are you doing to extract this information so that we can then weave that into the numeric part of the financial plan?

Tim Baker: If we start with the balance sheet, Tim, right, so the net worth, we’ve got to know where we’re at, right? That’s the vital check that we’re really looking for. So that’s really our first data point. The second part of that is now that we know where we’re at, where the heck are we going? So that is where we actually slow down and ask clients some introspective questions about like what is, what do you want out of this life? What is a wealthy life for you? Like if today was your last day, what would be things that you haven’t yet done that you want to do? Or if you had 5-10 years left or if money were no object, what would be the thing that — how would you build your day-to-day schedule? So like really kind of going through a series of questions and extracting information so it really paints a picture of now that we know where we’re at, at least financially, where do we want to go? And those two things, Tim, is what changes the whole answer of like, ‘Hey, well, should I do this or that?’ Before I know those things, it’s like, ‘Well, it depends.’ Now that we know these things, where are we at and where are we wanting to go, we can actually advise clients on their financial plan. So how we do that really is to look at all the different pieces. So like once we figure out that picture, our job, which ultimately, our job as a planning team, which ultimately supports our mission at YFP which is to empower a community of pharmacists to achieve financial freedom, our mission in the planning team is a little bit different. It’s a little bit more granular. Our job with clients is to help clients grow and protect income, which is the lifeblood of the financial plan — without that, nothing moves — grow and protect your net worth, which is essentially what sticks, while keeping your goals in mind. That’s our jam, right? So that’s how we feel that we can best help pharmacists achieve financial freedom. So we do that through all the different pieces of the financial plan, which is fundamentals, which might include savings plan and debt management, cash flow and budgeting, insurance, investment, the tax piece, the estate plan, and then all of these other supplemental pieces like credit, salary negotiation, the home purchase and real estate investing, education planning. It might be ‘I’m an entrepreneur, I want to start a business.’ All of that stuff basically are the — those are the processes that get us to really refining out the financial plan and then the quantitative, and then we kind of observe the quantitative and qualitative results and then adjust from there. So the quantitative results, the one that we focus on most, is the net worth. So the idea is that when you become a client, we’re going to say, “Hey, your net worth, you’re starting at -$50,000. And our hope is in a short amount of time, we go from the negative to the little bit less negative to the positive to that multi, that seven-figure pharmacist status.” Or if you’re already positive, it’s to kind of keep that rolling and make sure that we are efficiently growing the net worth. I think the other thing, which I think often gets lost with other financial planners, is the qualitative. It is really that, the things that are outside of the 1s and 0s, which for pharmacists, sometimes that could be tough, Tim, because you guys are scientists, you want to say, “OK, what’s — if I pay this amount in fees, this is what I want to get back.” I completely get it. But to me, it’s the qualitative stuff that really is typically the things that when I get off of a call or I’m here and Robert and Kelly talk about their interactions with clients, that I want to run through a wall because I’m just so jacked up about like what we’re doing and how we’re transforming clients. Like that’s the special stuff. And I really, what I really like to say is that we want to build out a life plan that is supported by the financial plan, not the other way around. Right?

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Tim Baker: That’s our jam.

Tim Ulbrich: So important, the life plan that is supported by the financial plan. I just think that’s a completely different way of thinking. You know, I’m going to overgeneralize the industry for a moment, but I think that, again, it’s easy to focus on the numbers, and we’ve talked extensively on the show about why often that may be the case, you know, all the incentives in terms of why the dollars. So if you’re sitting down with a client, you know, and this is one of I think the beauties of a fee-only model where you’ve got their best interests in mind, if something is more experience-based, Tim, sometimes that might be let’s spend some money to make this happen because we said it’s important, and we’ve accounted for it in the rest of the goals and what we’re trying to do. Now, again, it’s a balance. We need to take care of our future self while taking care of ourself today and living a rich life. But you know, that traditional model would be take that money and stuff it into an IRA because that might be a greater percentage of fees — you know, we talked about fees recently on the show. So I think that is so important when folks are looking for financial planning, whether that’s with us or somewhere else, is is that life plan being connected and have a strong connection thread with the financial plan? And I’ll say from personal experience, Tim, for Jess and I working with you, like it just feels like life goes by at lightning speed. And part of that may be phase of life, you know, young family, whatever. But just to slow down and not only think about these goals but then to have somebody actually put these back up in front of you every so often and say, “Hey, Tim and Jess, you guys said this was important. Like what are we doing about it?”

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: You know, “What are we doing about it?” And I need that because I am the person that I’ll try to squirrel away $4 instead of $3 million. And I know, like I know in my head, that when it’s all said and done, I’m not going to care if that was $2.5 or $3 or $3.5 and $4. Like there’s a point where enough is enough, but it’s the experiences and the other things that I think are really going to matter.

Tim Baker: Yeah. You are going to look back and be like, ‘Ah, I wish I would have done this with Sam and Everett and Levi. Like I wouldn’t — and Ben and done all these things.’ And we’ve talked about this, and I’ll cite a personal story. You know, my wife and I, we’ve been saving money really to kind of look at the next level from a real estate perspective, and we kind of just took a pause and we had this extensive conversation of like, do we really want to do this? You know, Olivia is our 6-year-old, we have Liam who’s turning 2. And we really have a window of time, right? We have a window of time where we have them as a captive audience, right? Maybe 10 years before Olivia is like, ‘Dad, get out of my face.’

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, you’re going to be still cool for awhile. Yeah.

Tim Baker: Yeah, like so I look at that like my dad — actually, my dad jokes do not land with her. She’s like, ‘Daddy.’ So I’m already losing that a little bit. But in terms of being able to spend time and have those experiences, that’s a small window. It is a very small window. And the discussion is really around should we put this into an investment, which from a number perspective is going to be probably the best thing that we can do, right? There’s no guarantees, right, with real estate or any investment. But to put this chunk of money there or do we do what my vision was in my life plan — so I’ve recently completed the Registered Life Planning designation, and when I was life planning, I still remember it like it was yesterday. You create this vision, and you create this energy behind this vision sometime in the near future. And for me, it was buying an RV and having the freedom in the summers and on the weekends or long weekends and maybe weeks at a time to go and travel and adventure and see national parks and things like that. But part of me, Tim, is like — the financial planner in me is man, if we purchase an RV, that’s a use asset that’s depreciating over time, I can’t rent that — I guess I can kind of rent it out. And it’s kind of nonsense, right? It’s kind of like a no-brainer. And it’s a struggle, right, even for me where I’m pushing, we’re pushing clients to really achieve that wealthy life. This is the thing when I talk about it, I get excited and passionate about. And for some people, it’s starting a family, for some people, it’s playing in a band. For some people, it’s horseback riding. These are examples that we’ve had with clients that, you know, they were like, when they talk about it, they just light up. And I’m like, this has to be in your financial plan. Like when you talk about becoming a mom or you talk about before you were in pharmacy school, these were the things that you were passionate about. I know we have, and I know we have some credit card debt, and I know we want to get the investment game rolling, but we’ve got to stop and smell the roses along the way and make sure that we’re taking care of ourselves today. So it’s just a passion of mine, and these are the things, like when you kind of look at a situation that clients think — and we know this with millennials in particular but we’re seeing it with like sandwich generation and Gen X and even Baby Boomers in terms of how they can retire, with millennials, it’s everything is going to the right. Like marriage, home purchase, kids, and I want to challenge that. I want to — if you work with a professional, I want to challenge that. And I think if we’re doing things — and sometimes, we as a team, we don’t necessarily think about all the things that we do technically, the things that most people expect about an efficient debt payoff process, an efficient investment process, efficient tax plan, like we don’t really think about those as much as we should, and we should pat ourselves on the back in terms of what we do with clients. But that to me is like table stakes. It’s the next level of things to then challenge the client of like, ‘Well, maybe that timeline of 5 years is not accurate. Maybe we can do a little bit more.’ And I think if you then couple that with an efficient budget and spending plan, I mean, really the sky’s the limit. And that’s what I really get jacked up about. You know, I get jacked up about the pharmacist that says, “Hey, here’s my 4-month-year-old, this is your fault, Tim,” in more of a conversation like, we thought that we would have to wait so much longer, not because we paid off our loans or we did this or that, it’s because we have confidence in our plan. And that to me is what continues to drive me and jack me up and really push forward, and that’s why we get up in the morning to really push forward that mission, again, to empower pharmacists to achieve financial freedom. It’s a great job, it’s a great position to be in to be able to influence that in such a way.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker, great stuff today. Loved the discussion on the importance of net worth and setting both quantitative and qualitative financial goals. And throughout the episode, several times we mentioned and referred to specific parts of our planning process at YFP Planning. So for folks that are listening to today’s episode and are interested in learning more about our one-on-one comprehensive financial planning services, you can head on over to YFPPlanning.com, you can schedule and book a free discovery call and determine whether or not our services may be a good fit for you. As always, we appreciate you joining us for this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Please do us a favor and leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show each and every week. That helps other pharmacy professionals find out and learn about this show. Thanks again for listening, and have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 209: Three Real Estate Investing Lessons Learned from Fellow Pharmacists

Posted on by yfpadmin

Three Real Estate Investing Lessons Learned from Fellow Pharmacists

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Nate Hedrick and David Bright discuss the growing interest in real estate investing among pharmacists, common barriers that pharmacists face that may prevent them from getting started, and three real estate investing lessons learned from fellow pharmacists who shared their stories and journeys on the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast.

Summary

Cohosts of the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast, Nate Hedrick and David Bright, return to the show, sharing some of the lessons they have already learned from their new podcast in the short time since its inception. Nate and David discuss three stories, in particular, lessons learned about real estate investing from those pharmacists featured on the show and running themes in the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast that listeners will notice and can anticipate in the future.

As a guest on the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast, in episode two, Jared Wonders shared his real estate investing story and how a foundation of financial strength enabled him to make investments by reducing financial risk. In episode three, Zac Hendricks and Blake Johnson provided insight on streamlining your real estate investing and rehab process for investment properties. Blake and Zac further highlight the power of partnerships and networking, leveraging their network to help turn difficult situations around and grow exponentially as investors. The third pharmacist investor story shared was from episode five, featuring Jenny and Myke White. Jenny and Myke’s journey demonstrates the power behind education in real estate, but equally important to learning is taking the leap and buying your first property. The jump from none to one can be intimidating, but having a great team around you will help reduce risks.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Nate and David, welcome to the show.

Nate Hedrick: Thanks. Great to be here.

David Bright: Hey, thanks.

Tim Ulbrich: Well I appreciate you guys taking time. I know you’ve been busy with your own show, with the YFP Real Estate Investing podcast. And really excited about the momentum that we have there and an opportunity here to talk about some of the lessons that I have heard as a listener of that show, some of the lessons that we’re hearing from fellow pharmacists around real estate investing and hopeful that some of these items we talk about tonight will be things that folks can take away, whether they’re thinking about investing, just getting started, or looking to continue to build out their portfolio. So I know that you’re just a handful of episodes into the YFP Real Estate Investing podcast, but very excited to see the interest from folks that we have in the community, activity that we have in the YFP Real Estate Investing Facebook group, and it’s really affirming of the initial thought that we had of the thirst that is out there for pharmacists to learn more about this topic. So Nate, why do you think we are seeing that growing interest among pharmacists that are interested in real estate investing?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, it’s a great question. I think it’s probably a couple different things. One is probably just an awareness bias. Right? Like we are interested in, and so now all of a sudden more people are coming out of the woodwork. And I find that that’s the case because I’m talking to people that are 28, 29 units deep and they’ve been doing it for 10 years and it’s not like I thought of it first and just found them. They’ve clearly been doing this a lot longer. So I think some of it is that. The other thing is that I think as pharmacists start to get their feet under them financially, they get their student loans kind of in a good spot, they get a really steady job, really steady income, they start to pay down some of that bad debt, they start to look at well, what are my other opportunities for growing my finances and building wealth? And a lot of them are starting to turn to real estate as a great opportunity to do that. And so I think that’s part of where we’re seeing that community kind of flexing from.

Tim Ulbrich: It’s interesting to think of, you know, the time that you guys launched this podcast, so you know, mid-April, arguably we’re in one of the wildest real estate markets that many of us have seen, at least in our recent memory. And so not necessarily the easiest time to jump into real estate investing. And so the fact that we continue to see pharmacists that are active in their investing, pharmacists that are wanting to just get started or even use this season as an opportunity just to learn more, right, and absorb information and perhaps act when the time is right for them and their personal plan. David, with that in mind, you know, in terms of the interest that we’re seeing, growing interest among pharmacists, there are certainly barriers that pharmacists are facing as well that might be preventing them from getting started. One of them I mentioned might be the market right now. What else comes to mind for you?

David Bright: Yeah, I think the market is an interesting one because we haven’t talked about that as much on the podcast, but I know it’s certainly come up on the Facebook group. And I think that’s kind of a head-scratcher for a lot of people because you could look to almost any season and say, if you were to think back to like 2004-2005, ‘Oh, the market’s rising really fast. I don’t know if this is a good time.’ You could look at it in like 2010 and say, ‘The market just crashed. I don’t know if this is a good time.’ Like you could be suspicious of just about any market, and so I think that some of that is just market hesitation. Part of that is just kind of getting through that and knowing that you can never really time the market just like with stock market investing. So I think that timing is one factor that causes a lot of heartburn. I think another one is just time in general to learn about real estate investing, to feel like you’ve got enough confidence, particularly for pharmacists that spend a ton of time in school and a ton of time learning about our trade. And as we get good at what we do, it almost feels like you’ve got to put that much time into real estate investing to know what to do. But I think we’ve had a lot of guests on that have showed that you can get started a lot faster than that. It’s maybe not quite that complicated. And I’d say money or at least a plan with money is another barrier as people are looking at trying to save up for a down payment or something like that with a house, that does take a plan, and it does take some effort. And then once you’ve worked to save up that money, that can also cause some hesitation. So there’s a lot of these common hesitation pieces, but one of the things that I really enjoyed about the first few episodes is we got a chance to talk with several investors who were a little bit newer and all had taken that plunge, and so that was really, really fun to see folks that had just said, ‘You know what, I’m going to figure it out, and I’m going to dive in.’

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think that Nate and David, both of you have I think taught me this either directly or indirectly. But so much of this feels like momentum, momentum to get started. And one of the things I’ve heard among the guests was the importance of that first move, right? And we’re going to talk more about that as we highlight one of the episodes here in a moment. But I think one of the things I love about what you guys have done with this show as well as what we’re seeing in the YFP Real Estate Investing Facebook group is really holding true to the mission that you guys had for the show, which is pharmacist first, real estate investing second to that and making sure that we’re able to develop a plan around the careers that we love and around the careers that we invested a lot of time and money to do and obviously to be able to serve the patients that they serve as pharmacists. And I think the stories that you’ve featured — and we’ll talk about a couple of them here on this episode — of pharmacists that aren’t necessarily way off in the distance of massive portfolios but that took that first step or maybe that second step, and it wasn’t all perfect, and there was some learning and some growth and some development, and I think that makes it relatable. Right? That makes it to me as a pharmacist listening that is saying, ‘You know, I’m interested in this,’ to Nate’s point, ‘I’ve tidied up certain parts of my financial plan. I may be ready to dabble in this thing of real estate that really excites me for a variety of reasons.’ And hearing other pharmacists that I can see myself in their shoes and really see myself in their position where yeah, there’s some excitement, but there’s also some anxiety and some fear and some unknown. But at the end of the day, there’s a lot of learning to be had through the process. So kudos to you guys for I think a great start to this show and really holding true to the mission that you guys set out before you even recorded Episode 01. So I want to spend our time on this episode really highlighting three lessons that I have heard come through the show from fellow pharmacists that have been guests. And you know, I shared with both of you guys before I hit record, we hit record, and I meant it, like I’ve become a fan of the show. And I’ve been listening, taking away some key points and information as I suspect many of our listeners have as well. And so I wanted to hit some of the main themes and key points and use some of the stories that we’ve heard thus far on the show to highlight those key points. First one I want to talk about here is Episode 02. And I had the opportunity to interview Jared Wonders on the YFP podcast, you had him on Episode 02 of the YFP Real Estate Investing podcast where he talked about long-term versus short-term rental property investing and his perspective. Nate, give us a quick summary of Jared, his story, what him and Jess are doing, as well as what you guys talked about on the show.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, so Jared was our first true guest. And I thought he’d be a great target just because of the diversity of real estate that he’s involved in, right? He has a partner, and they own a multifamily together. He has a single-family that him and his wife bought by themselves. He just bought his first short-term rental. So like he’s dabbled in all these different areas that really highlight the various ways that you can get into real estate investing as a pharmacist. And so Jared is just a really great guy when it comes to explaining what’s going on, and he’s very eager to share that education with others. So he was a natural target for Episode 02 and just bringing on that first guest. He was great.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I really like what he shared, Nate, about — I had the chance to meet him and Jess when they were here in Columbus at a Buckeye football game and really could see the passion that they have for this topic and also their appreciation for the work that they do as pharmacists. But I think he said maybe three times on that show at least — I’d have to go back and listen — the importance of getting on the same page with your significant other or spouse, right? And I thought he did such a nice job of articulating that, and I know that’s something, Nate, that you’ve articulated as well, right? I mean, how important is that?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, I mean, honestly, I never would have been able to pull the trigger on that first property without Kristen being on board and being able to talk through that. And still to this day, like we don’t do a deal without talking it through together. You know, I tend to be the overly excited one. I see a deal and I’m like, ‘Oh, we can totally make this work.’ And Kristen is the one that sits back and looks at the numbers and says, ‘Well, but hold on. The numbers don’t work and here’s why.’ So we need each other to balance each other out, and again, I agree. Jared talked a lot about how him and Jess do that together and how that makes them more successful, which is really cool.

Tim Ulbrich: The other thing I really appreciate about Jared — and I’ve had a chance to know him a little bit more on a personal level — is I feel like he very much has a passion and a heart for teaching others and helping others. And so that came through on the show, you know, in terms of his desire to help other pharmacists in this area and really appreciate the contributions he has made to the Facebook group and excited to see where his portfolio goes in the future. David, one of the things — when I listened to that episode, and I think you penned you guys right away, I also messaged Jared when I heard it because it resonated with me thinking about the financial plan and where this fits in — and this is our first lesson learned — is he talked I thought so profoundly about the importance of being able to make moves, speaking of real estate investing, from a position of financial strength. Tell us more about what he was trying to communicate there and why in your experience as well as what we heard from Jared, that is so important when it comes to real estate investing.

David Bright: Yeah, I think one of the things that we’ve seen in talking with a lot of different pharmacists, pharmacists are inherently wired to play it safe and in doing that, one of the best ways to invest with greater safety is to invest from a position of financial strength. And he talked a lot about that, how having cash reserves and having a plan for debt and all of that figured out just makes it so much less stressful so that when a water heater goes out or when there’s a roof leak or when there’s an eviction or when something happens, you handle it. You’ve got a plan in place. And doing that from a position of financial strength rather than I hope there’s margin left on the credit card or something like that. And so that can be really, really helpful and help particularly pharmacists sleep better at night in their investing. I think the other piece of that is investing from a position of financial strength, when you have your finances cleaned up and in order, pharmacists tend to have a much more solid W2 income, and that can be a real piece of strength for when you go to borrow money with a conventional lender for a mortgage. And so that can be a real just critical piece of purchasing property and having it go much, much more smoothly.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I know, David, our planning team here will be very happy to hear Jared’s advice and some of your comments here because one of the things I say on the show all the time is that every part of the financial plan has value and that it’s so important when you’re making a financial decision that you’re not making that decision in a silo, right? So here, we’re talking about investing as one part of the financial plan. We’ve got debt management, we’ve got insurance, we’ve got obviously a whole host of other parts of the financial plan. And within investing, we’re talking about one subset of investing, which is real estate investing. And I think that’s a theme I’ve heard from many guests and knowing the folks and their individual stories of you know, thinking about things like the emergency fund. Where is that at? What’s the game plan for that? What’s the debt position? You know, Nate, you and I talked about this recently on an episode related to buying a home with student loans is it doesn’t necessarily mean there is no debt. Obviously that’s an individual decision. But what’s the plan around that debt, right, in terms of being able to put this piece of the puzzle around that? And then the other thing I would add here that I heard loud and clear, guys, throughout all of the episodes we’ll speak about this evening as well as others is really having a purpose and a vision and a why for what you’re trying to accomplish when it comes to real estate investing. You know, what is the motivation? What’s the goal? Not necessarily because you heard a coworker or you heard it on the show and it sounds interesting. Hopefully it does. But what does that mean individually for you and your financial plan? And how does this ultimately fit into what you’re trying to accomplish with the rest of the financial plan? So that’s Lesson No. 1, which is really being able to make a move when it comes to real estate investing from a position of financial strength. And I think Jared did such a nice job with talking about that in Episode 02. Next one I want to move to is Episode 03, which was Blake Johnson and Zach Hendricks, two great guys. We’ve had them on the YFP podcast as well talking about some of their real estate investing journey. You guys did a nice job building upon that. They talked about in Episode 03 running the rental numbers and really digging deep into their individual roles and the partnership that they have. So David, give us a quick summary of Blake and Zach and their show. And what were some of the takeaways that you had being able to interview them for that show?
David Bright: I really had a great time talking with Blake and Zach that night. I know Nate and I ended up staying on after we turned off the record button, we stayed on to talk to them for awhile too. They were just a lot of fun to talk to. And you can tell that they are just, they’re just loving life as they’re doing this. This isn’t creating some major stress where they can’t sleep or anything like that. Like they’re just enjoying this. And so I thought that was just really encouraging to kick off with. But they talked about kind of how they get started, some different projects they’re working on, even with running the numbers, one of the things that impressed me so much as they were talking about running their numbers is they just have a really simple way of doing it. They’re doing advanced calculus pharmacokinetic kind of stuff. Like they just figured out some pretty simple math. And even when Nate and I threw some questions of thinking about it in a slightly more complex way, they’re like, nah. It was just the beauty of simplicity, and I feel like that can help get past that analysis paralysis. And they just had a really, really great model there. And I think the other thing that they hit on well is clearly, they have a partnership in doing this, which for their goals since you talked about that purpose and vision and why, for achieving their goals, they knew that they wanted to go bigger than just having one or two rental properties each. They wanted more than that. And so it just reminds me of that quote of, “If you want to go fast, go alone. But if you want to go far, go together,” how they just really found a great partnership opportunity and leveraged that in order to achieve their goals.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and David, the other thing that stands out as you speak about partnership is how clearly defined their roles are. Right? So I remember Blake talking about really his value in being able to analyze the properties, find those that may be a good investment, and Zach really plays a significant role because of his background and what he does and a lot of the rehab, estimating those costs as well as overseeing that part of the project. So yeah, I think the value of their partnership stood out. I thought the clear purpose and vision and why behind their investing was a strength and certainly appreciate the comment you made on the value of that partnership. Nate, the other thing that I want to spend a few moments here on, which is the second lesson I want to talk about this evening that came out from this episode was the power of networking. And I remember Blake talking about this when we had him on the YFP podcast. He talked about it again on this show. It really seemed like they have been intentional in building relationships. Now, they’ve got a couple things going for them, right? They’re in a small town in Arkansas, Blake’s got some great relationships that are coming from his role of working with an independent pharmacy. But it seems like those relationships and the intentionality of building those and also conducting their business in a high integrity way that furthers those relationships really have played a big role in the success of their investing. Tell us more about the power of networking and what you took away from this episode related to that.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, I agree. That’s a really powerful point for them that a lot of their deals, a lot of their — some of their best deals and some of their saves, things where it may not have been going right but they turned it around and kind of fixed it came because they had good networks and good individuals to speak with. You know, one of the main things they talked about was the first couple deals were MLS deals, meaning they were listed properties, anybody could see them. But as the market became tighter and tighter, they started finding new ways to find opportunities. And some of those simply became just because they knew somebody who knew somebody or they talked to the right person at the right time. And it just goes to show that truly building that network in advance and giving away things up front so that you can hopefully get back later in the future, it has really paid dividends for them. So again, they gave several examples on that episode, and I think again, like David said, after the fact we were chatting with them. It’s just incredible to hear the number of people that they interact with and how that helps their business.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I remember some of the relationships they talked about with agents, with obviously the lending and what that gave them in terms of they now have some of that smaller town relationship and being able to have some more flexibility and be nimble in some of those deals. David, I want to put you on the hot seat for a moment because this is one of the things I noticed when I started really getting into a little bit more about what you’re doing on the investing side of how valuable it was and is the team that you have built up around you. And I know this is a process that has taken time, but I think for somebody that is hearing whether it’s Blake and Zach’s episode or hearing stories such as yours or others that have really taken some time to build up these relationships, it can still feel overwhelming with like, where do I even start? Like is this a meetup of investors? Is this a Bigger Pockets type of thing or the YFP Real Estate Investing Facebook group? Like as you reflect back on your own journey where now you’ve got all these relationships with folks that you trust, that are looking out for you and your investing plan, like how did you get started with that? And what words of advice would you have for folks in this area of building up their team and then ultimately the power and value that comes from networking?

David Bright: Yeah, that’s such a good question because I agree, that’s a big thing that can get in people’s ways if I don’t have a trusted contractor, a trusted realtor, a trusted lender, like all these different people, that can be really stressful. For me, I know a lot of that started with a great referral to a great agent. And that agent knew great people who I was able to meet. From there, there was local networking with a meetup where I met more really good people. And so for me, it was a lot of just networking and trying to learn more from local people but all stemming out of some of those just natural first relationships.

Tim Ulbrich: So we’ve talked a little bit about being able to make moves from a position of financial strength. We’ve talked about the power of networking. And I want to shift gears now and focus on Jenny and Myke White, awesome episode, Episode 05 that you guys had them on the show, “None to One: How to Get Your First Investment Property.” And shoutout to Jenny and Myke, I’ve known Jenny for a couple years. I had a chance to interview Jenny and Myke on the YFP podcast. Love what they’re doing in terms of their investing but also love their passion for helping others and love their willingness to be honest with how they got started, some of the mistakes that they made along the way, some of the things that they’ve been learning along the way. And I think for those that are just beginning to think about what might be the first move, I would highly recommend you check out Episode 05 as I thought it gave a great insight into some fellow individuals that may be in a similar path to what you’re looking for. So Nate, give us a quick overview of Jenny and Myke, their background, what they’re doing from an investing standpoint, and how they got started that you featured on Episode 05.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, what we realized early on, David and I just planning out some of the shows we wanted to have, we recognized that a lot of our audience is someone that has never invested in real estate before and may not have even thought about doing it up until this point. And so our thought was, you know, for both of us, one of the hardest things was getting that first property. And so how do you go from no properties at all to that very first one? And Jenny and Myke were in the perfect position to kind of share that because they had recently done it, and they have exactly one property. So they are about as relatable as you can possibly get while still being a real estate investor. And so Jenny and Myke’s story is amazing where they’ve really worked together as a couple to kind of figure out what is in their best interests. One of the things I love about their story is that Jenny talks about how it was kind of her idea first, this whole idea of real estate, and how she brought Myke along, which I think, again, a ton of people can resonate with where one spouse gets interested and then brings the other along for the ride and just how that worked and how they played that out. And again, I think overall, their story is about moving across country, relocating at where they were going to invest, and then leveraging their capital from that move into their first investment property and how that worked. It was a great story.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I agree. And I love their passion, Nate, for learning. I know Jenny hosts a real estate book club on Facebook, and she talks so much about the learning process and for those that have ever met Jenny — and a shoutout to her — like she’s one of those people you talk to in a half hour or 60 minutes and you feel motivated and inspired to like get after learning more because she’s just so on fire with learning and also wanting to provide value to other folks and the conversations and the interactions that she’s having. David, to the point of learning, do your homework, this really stands out to me as the third lesson that I heard across multiple episodes, but really highlighting the interview with Jenny and Myke, and that is do your homework and learn, learn, learn, keep learning, but at some point, you’ve got to jump even if you don’t have all the answers. So talk to us about how important that is, when folks might decide when they’re ready to actually make that move, and how they ultimately avoid becoming paralyzed through the analysis phase.

David Bright: Yeah, I think that they had a really good balance there where Jenny in particular was doing a lot of that homework and learning and reading and all of that. Myke created a lot of accountability there in that coming on board together, kind of approaching this as a team. And then when it came time for them to jump, one of the things that they did that I really liked is they didn’t try for like crazy advanced strategies of they got a realtor, and they went on the MLS, and they found a listed property, and they bought it. And so they didn’t — by just jumping in with something that’s a tried-and-true method that you can read a lot about, you can learn a lot about, and it’s probably something very similar to what most everyone that owns their own home has already done. You find a good realtor, you go on the MLS, you find a house, you buy it. So jumping became easier because they had a strategy that helped for that. And by learning through that, that kind of decreased the anxiety and I just really liked how they were able to do that by surrounding themselves with a really solid team and a really solid strategy.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, again, that was Episode 05, “None to One: How to Get Your First Investment Property.” None to one, I love that concept, Nate. I think you mentioned it as well, but we should do more of those into the future. I think highlighting more folks because that is the biggest barrier, right? It was for me, I suspect for you guys as well and others that are listening. And maybe you go none to one and you realize it’s not for you. That’s OK. Likely you go none to one and you realize alright, I’m still on my feet, I learned some things, could have done it better, and what does that mean for the next deal going forward and also being able to help others. So “None to One: How to Get Your First Investment Property,” that was Episode 05 with Jenny and Myke White.

Nate Hedrick: And yeah, I would agree. The none to one story I feel like is the most authentic, right? Those people, they come on the show, they have just done this recently, and again, they’re the most relatable investor we can possibly provide. So I really like those stories. And you’re right, I’m hoping to bring more of those to light here with David as we go forward.

Tim Ulbrich: One other theme, David and Nate, that I’ve heard from guests throughout the episodes that you guys have done already is the value of community and learning from others, the value of community and learning from others. You know, that provides accountability, obviously it provides support, being challenged, making connections. We talked about several of these key points here tonight. And I think this is an opportunity for folks, if you’re not already in and aware of what we’re doing with the YFP Real Estate Investing Facebook group, I hope you’ll join us. We’ve got a few hundred pharmacists already that are engaging with one another, sharing some pretty awesome stories, the good, bad, and the ugly, connecting with other pharmacist investors in their community. That’s really what this is all about, hopefully that we can educate, inspire, empower, and ultimately be able to connect you with other investors that are pharmacists and also an opportunity to learn from one another. David, speaking of getting started, I think one of the challenges here is that folks that come on the podcast, even though you guys have done a nice job of asking them questions that may highlight some of the challenges along the way, we’re probably hearing some of the best of the best in terms of their deal stories or examples that they’re providing when you’re asking them to provide an example. And that might not be necessarily something that everyone listening looks at and say, ‘That worked out so well, I’m still nervous that it may not work out for me.’ So tell us about why that’s important folks consider that as they’re hearing guests come on the show.

David Bright: Yeah, I definitely want to caution when you hear things that are just like, ‘Oh, that was an amazing deal. I don’t know how I could ever do that,’ like I don’t want that to be this intimidating thing by featuring some folks where this worked out. Like it definitely doesn’t work out in every situation. Blake and Zach had a nice story that kind of showed some of the other side of that of how things don’t always work out but also how they were able to turn that around and still prevent it from being a disaster. Jared had a very similar story as well. So one of the things that when you have a good team around you, again, since pharmacists are so wired for safety, when you have that good team around you, they help you to not really get super hurt. And so you mentioned a minute ago this ‘none to one’ concept, and that’s one of the nice things about real estate is if you ever go from one back to none, it’s kind of like when you sell the house you live in. You go get a realtor, you put it on the MLS, you sell the house. So if you buy $100,000 rental property and after a few years it’s not really working out for you, hopefully if you’ve surrounded yourself with a good team and bought well, it’s not going to hurt so bad. It’s different than if you would have put $100,000 on Blockbuster 20 years ago or something like that. You could really be in trouble now. So there’s a lot of safety in team and in real estate in general.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, great reminder, David. And I know you and Nate have done a great job and will continue to of featuring the good, bad, and the ugly, right? I think it’s important as we talk about this as one option of investing that pharmacists may consider in the context of their financial plan, really understanding what is the benefits, potential benefits, what are the risks, who might this be for and who may this not be for and really trying to present a fair perspective on real estate investing. So Nate, I know we’re just a handful of episodes in, but am I itching as I suspect our listeners are as well, like what’s ahead? What should we expect from the show coming forward?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, I think more of what we’ve already provided, right? I talked about sharing stories of people that are just getting started. We don’t want to move away from that because I think that is I think a lot of our audience. We’ve got some ideas coming away where we’re going to interview some members of those people’s teams. So property managers, contractors, maybe a real estate agent, financial planning, all the different pieces that go into supporting real estate investing. So taking some looks at that aspect. And then I think too, we’re just trying to share more stories of pharmacists doing this while being pharmacists. You know, that really was kind of the core mission that David and I looked at and making sure that our show was different and our show was relatable to specifically our audience. And so that is one of our big goals as we move forward is to keep sharing those stories of success as pharmacists but having that same success in the real estate side as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I hope you’ll join Nate and David each Saturday, new episode, what a better way to start the weekend, get a cup of coffee, put on the show. For those that are working weekends, you can listen to it on your car ride. Great opportunity to kick off the weekend. And if you have a question or story to share, feel free to reach out to [email protected]. We’d love to hear from you. Again, [email protected]. David and Nate, I’m going to put you guys a little bit on your own hot seat. So one of the things you do at the end of your episodes are some final infusion questions, which I love the pharmacy connection there. And a really cool opportunity to hear from folks about resources and things that are helpful among other things. Question I have for you guys — I do want to ask you for a resource or something that you’re finding value in right now — but first, I want to ask you, as you reflect on the journey thus far, you know, one of the things I share with folks is one of the greatest joys of doing this podcast has been able to meet so many different pharmacists and while I am helping to share their story, I feel like I leave each and every one of those learning something myself and hopefully finding an opportunity to improve. So as you reflect back on the journey thus far, David, we’ll start with you: One thing you’ve learned from the guests that have challenged or inspired you in your own real estate journey.

David Bright: Yeah, one of the things that has really hit me in the first several episodes that we’ve recorded is I’m realizing how most of my personal investing has really just been buy-and-hold investing, long-term rentals, kind of consistent and boring. And I like that because I’m able to do that without it interfering with my work as a pharmacist. One of the things that’s been inspiring to me is seeing pharmacists that leverage multiple strategies. Like I really thought I had to just do the one thing in order for it to be manageable. But seeing other pharmacists that are able to work multiple strategies at the same time and do short-term or medium-term rentals as well, and so it’s opened my brainstorming to maybe there’s other things that I could do, and if I follow in the footsteps of what some of these other investors have been doing, there’s got to be ways that I can also do that without distracting from my work as a pharmacist.

Tim Ulbrich: Very cool. And Nate, what about you?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah. To get really specific, I think it’s actually similar to David. I have not considered short-term rentals before as something that I wanted to get into. But after talking with both Jared and with Rachel, I thought immediately, like I’ve got to look into this more. This is something that I think is really interesting. You know, I’ve stayed at an Airbnb before, but I’ve never owned one. And so you know, again, taking that actual discussion and putting it into practice, right? Kristen and I within the last couple of weeks actually went out and looked at a property we were evaluating as a short-term rental. And that only happened because I had those conversations with Jared and with Rachel. And it was funny, an extra shoutout to Jared Wonders because I texted him the night before we were going to go look at a property, and I’m like, “Alright, man, I need to know everything about buying an STR like tonight.” And he was super helpful. He was like, “OK, well, what do you actually need?” And so he’s giving me all these great resources right over phone. So it’s just really cool to expand what I thought was possible and then have a community to go along with me for the ride. So again, it’s not like I have to go re-learn all this stuff from scratch. I can go right to people that are doing it, living it, and have a great relationship with me already and tap right into them, which is awesome.

Tim Ulbrich: And what a cool example there, Nate, right? I mean, that’s a great example of like going from textbook to application, right? I mean, you talk about short-term rentals, but you actually go out, you look at one, you run some numbers, you talk with somebody else about it, get another opinion. Like that makes it come alive, you know? So I think that’s a cool example of the value of making those connections. Another final infusion question you guys ask to your audience is, you know, what’s one resource, could be a podcast, could be a book, could be a guide, a quiz, a calculator, a form, whatever, that you’re currently drawing value from when it comes to your own journey as a real estate investor. So David?

David Bright: So one of the things that I think we keep making jokes about on the podcast because every week, at least once, “Rich Dad Poor Dad” gets mentioned, right, like if not multiple times. Like I don’t know, that book has changed so many people’s lives. And so kind of going through this, asking these questions and hearing that perpetually come up has actually caused my wife Heather and I to go back through that book —

Tim Ulbrich: Oh, cool.

David Bright: — as the two of us to just kind of talk through some of that, the fundamentals and foundations and mindset from that book because it is so good, and there’s a reason why everybody mentions it. So it’s one of those where I think you can go back and read it for the 13th time or whatever time you’re on, and some of that is just really helpful to continually get your mind in gear for where you’re trying to go.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, David, I think that’s one of those books — I haven’t read it 13 times yet, I think I’m only three times through — but it’s one of those books that hits you in a different place like where you are, you know, partly in probably your own personal investing journey mindset-wise. But I kind of have put that among some other books of like I need to revisit this book every couple years because it is that transformational. And I would even argue for those that are listening that are like, I’m not even sure the whole real estate investing thing is for me, I think it’s still that important of a resource just to get you thinking a little bit different in terms of mindset and money. Nate, what about you?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, the resource that I keep going back to — and I’m stealing from my first answer — is the other pharmacists that we get to talk with, right?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Nate Hedrick: It starts with David and I, like David has been a fantastic resource for me, but also the other pharmacists that we’re talking to. And just being able to tap into that network, learning from people that are doing this, you know, I’ve always had some sort of community with Bigger Pockets and with my real estate activities, there are other agents I can talk to, but it hasn’t felt like this level of fit where I can just go to those people and we immediately connect and it’s on a different level than I’ve had before. So that for me has been a big change, and it’s a resource that I am fully tapping into. So apologies to all those I’ve already texted and bothered with questions, but it’s a great way to learn and again, we come at this as experts in what we do. But there are so many things that we are not experts in yet, and there are so many ways that I can still learn. And so this has been really fun for me to tap into that and continue to grow and learn.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and the power of networking, right? We talked about it earlier on the show, but I believe that this is another great example, what you just said there, Nate, that there’s enough of this to go around, right, for folks that want to get — this is about other people helping each other, whether that’s in your own community, whether it’s in other communities, and we’re just a handful of episodes in, but I’m starting to see come to shape this concept of pharmacists connecting with other pharmacists in a variety of different ways, being able to encourage and motivate each other on their own journey and perhaps collaborate in some cases if that makes sense. So again, YFP Real Estate Investing podcast, each and every Saturday on this channel. If you have a question that you have for Nate and David or a story to share, please shoot us an email at [email protected]. And for those that are listening and thinking, where do I get started with real estate investing, Nate and David have written a great resource, “The Pharmacist’s Guide to Real Estate Investing.” It’s a quick read, a lot of tangible takeaways. You can get a copy of that for free at YFPRealEstate.com. Again, that’s “The Pharmacist’s Guide to Real Estate Investing.” You can grab a copy for free at YFPRealEstate.com. David and Nate, thank you so much for the contributions on the show as well as taking time this evening.

Nate Hedrick: Thanks, Tim.

David Bright: Thanks so much.

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YFP 208: Why Minimizing Fees On Your Investments Is So Important

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Why Minimizing Fees On Your Investments Is So Important

Tim Baker digs into the f-word we want to minimize when it comes to our investments…FEES! When you do the hard work to save money, you should be interested in keeping as much of that investment intact by minimizing the fees that can take away from your long-term gains. Tim discusses various fees, the impact these fees can have on achieving your long-term savings goals, and strategies you can take to evaluate the fees related to your own investment plan.

Summary

Tim Baker discusses the many types of fees associated with your investments and their impact on your financial plan, including expense ratios, platform fees, trading fees, and advisor fees. He also breaks down the ABCs of mutual funds: A shares, B shares, and C shares and the types of fees each of these investments may include. Tim further details how these fees can impact your investments over time, affect growth, and impact your financial plan overall.

Tim discusses his experiences with clients, sharing that many do not know they are being charged various fees or do not understand the full impact the cost can be in the long term. While many fees may be challenging to uncover, Tim shares the importance of asking questions about fees, whether you are just getting started or are farther into your investment history. Investors should be asking what their fees are, why they are paying them, and the benefit – if any – they have on the investments.

Tim mentions that it’s okay to pay a fee for professional help but be wary when advisors are charging commission because there may be a conflict of interest. Tim also suggests you ask what you are getting for your fees across the board, with professional services as well as the investments themselves. Typically, the expense that you pay does not equate to increased benefits for the investor, so trimming those fees whenever and wherever possible may benefit the investor over time.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, back-to-back episodes. Good to have you on again.

Tim Baker: Yeah, good to be back. I’m excited for this episode. I think it’s going to be hopefully valuable for those that are listening.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I think so. And we talked last week about common financial errors or mistakes, some that we’ve made, some we’ve seen other pharmacist clients, colleagues, make. And today, we’re talking about one that was not on that list of common mistakes we discussed last episode but certainly can have a major impact on how much wealth you’re able to build. And we’re going to talk really big numbers at the impact that fees can have, fees on the investments is going to be the focus of today’s discussion and hopefully shedding some light on a topic that maybe folks have heard about but haven’t really thought about and evaluated for their own investing plan. So Tim, one of the things I share when I talk on the topic of investing is that if you’re going to do all of the hard work to save money each and every month, take advantage of compound interest and the time value of money, then we want to do everything we can to maintain as much of the pie as possible. And I often think that there’s really three big things that can eat at our investment pie: that’s taxes — and we’ve talked about that on several episodes on the show of things that we can do from the tax-advantaged investing standpoint — inflation — obviously can be out of control to some degree — and then the third is the one we’re going to be talking about today, which is fees. And something I’ve heard you say before is that you need to follow the “Three F Rule” of 401k management. And that’s Figure out the Fees First. So that’s what we’re going to be digging into today, and that’s even beyond just the 401k when we talk about fees. So Tim, before we get too far into the weeds about this discussion of fees, let’s back up a bit as some may be thinking, fees on my investments? What fees on my investments? So talk to us a little bit about the common fees that are out there when it comes to one’s individual investment portfolio.

Tim Baker: Yeah, if I could even back up further, Tim, I would even say like the importance of this — like it shouldn’t be understated. And I think that, you know, when we — kind of like when I talk about baby stepping the financial plan, we look at things like what does the emergency fund look like, what does the consumer debt look like.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: When we dive in particular into the investment part of the financial plan, one of the first things I look at is fees. And you know, outside of the asset allocation, which the asset allocation being like how do I divvy up in a broad sense between like stocks versus bonds and you can actually get more granular than that, outside of the asset allocations, the fees probably play one of the biggest roles in your ability to kind of build wealth over time and really the fees, just like you mentioned along with tax and inflation, is it can really be in a factor that erodes that ability to build wealth. So it’s super important. And you know, when I look at the fees, one of the problems in the industry is that the industry is not super transparent with regard to what the investor pays. A lot of these can be wrapped up in products that are sold to investors or not necessarily appropriately disclosed on a statement. So you’re really up against it when you’re trying to figure out, OK, what exactly am I paying? And the fact that it can be a little bit opaque in that regard is frustrating. I think that’s one of the things that we work with our clients is to show them, ‘Hey, did you know that you’re paying this in your 401k?’ And most people are like, ‘I had no idea.’ Then the question is, ‘Is that good or bad?’ And I’m like, ‘Well, it’s typically higher than what we see,’ or something along those lines. So to me, the name in the game is really trying to understand — to answer the question, what are the things that you could be charged? And then like what is that exactly for your particular case? So if we look at the things that we typically see, if we look at the 401k first, you know, the things that are typically in the 401k are things like platform fees. So this might be where Fidelity or Schwab or someone might charge you a fee just to really have an account with them. And that’s less common in a 401k. You typically see them more in brokerage accounts, more in IRAs. When I was in the broker dealer world, we would charge — the custodian would charge clients just to have an account open. And a lot of this is in also response to like lower entrance environments. You know, they’re trying to make money where they can. And sometimes these additional line item fees are created. Things like trading fees and transaction fees. So this is like anytime that you buy and sell, again, typically you don’t see these inside of a 401k, but you do see these outside, like a brokerage account, an IRA, you know, if you buy stock ABC, sometimes you’ll be charged anywhere from $7 to $50 a trade. Now, these have kind of become less and less common as a lot of the custodians want to be competitive and they’ll waive fees and things like that.

Tim Ulbrich: Race to 0 here, right?

Tim Baker: Exactly.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: Yep. The other thing that you would see are things like advisor fees. So these can be both within inside and outside of a 401k. So these are things like, ‘Hey, I work with an advisor, and they charge me a flat 1% on the investments that they’re managing.’ It could also come in the form of commissions, and that’s a whole other ball of wax in terms of how an A share, a B share, a C share mutual fund, you typically don’t see commissions inside of a 401k, but you do see — sometimes you see C share, which are commissions, inside of a 401k. But you typically see those more in brokerage accounts, IRAs, and such that. And then probably the last one that basically permeates just about every investment is expense ratio. So the expense ratio is the money that the fund takes to kind of run the fund. So if I’m a mutual fund manager, Tim, and I’m in charge of a large cap mutual fund, you know, I’m managing billions of dollars, so I’m pulling a bunch of investors’ money together to buy large cap stocks and the like. Then I need to pay myself, I need to pay for the fancy office on Wall Street, I need to be able to pay for information. I might even need to pay sales people to go out and market my fund. So those all are basically captured in an expense ratio. So the expense ratio basically, you know, takes money out of that fund and it’s shared, that expense is shared, with the rest of the investors that are invested in it. So those are typically the broad strokes. You also see other ones I would say outside — and these kind of can get wrapped up into platform fees — but you’ll see like administrative or like bookkeeping fees in a 401k. And this could be like record keeping and all of the laws that are surrounding 401k plans and 403b’s. These can be pretty prohibitive. Sometimes they’re a flat fee, sometimes they’re a percentage. But these are kind of just administrative fees that, again, that are not listed on a — they’re not listed on a statement anywhere. It’s just part of the plan and what the plan takes to make sure it runs within the laws of the United States.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, when I hear you say, you know — and obviously it depends on the account, you mentioned some of these may be more applicable to like an IRA, brokerage, others across the board, but several different types of fees you mentioned, right? Platform fees, advisor fees, trading fees, sometimes commission fees, expense ratios perhaps is the one that folks may be most aware of. My follow-up question is transparency and understanding of these fees. So those are two very different things to me. You know? Even if something is transparent, how it’s disclosed or how somebody may be informed of it or how easy it is to find that information obviously can lead to whether or not they may have an understanding of it. So in your experience working with clients and really more specifically our clients at YFP Planning, is this something that you find folks are surprised by? And how transparent and accessible is this information to either the individual or you as the advisor trying to work with them?

Tim Baker: Yeah, Tim, so I think it is a surprise. And what I typically try to do to kind of make it a little bit more real is put it in real dollar sense. So you know, one of the things that when we talk to pharmacy schools and we’re trying to like drive home the point that this isn’t Monopoly money, that when you graduate, you’re like at with the average student loan debt that graduates are coming out with, it’s a $2,000 payment for 10 years. And when most people think about it in that terms, you’re like, ‘Oh, OK, that becomes more real.’ So I try to do the same thing with the fees. So yeah, like when we go over this, I think at first, it’s like, ‘Oh, OK, well that doesn’t sound that bad.’ You know, so like I’m looking at this independent pharmacist, their 401k, and typically the smaller the employer, the worse the 401k is or the most more expensive it is per each participant. So like this particular pharmacist, their all-in when they look at the administrative fees and the average investment fees, it’s about 1.27%. So you’re like, ‘Wow, that doesn’t sound too bad, 1.27%.’ But if you have $100,000 in that 401k, that’s $1,270 per year that the 401k and the funds inside of the 401k basically absorbs. So with this particular client, they have $250,000 in that, so that’s a lot more. It’s a lot more money. It’s more than double that every year. And again, it’s not like it’s a line item on the statement anywhere. It’s what the 401k takes to run and the investments take to basically run the funds that they’re in. So what we really try to do is, again, look at it — and we have tools that can assess that information. But even to do it yourself — and I’ve tried to do this even outside of the tools that we use — it’s hard to find. You have to find basically the plan. Every year, they have to file what’s called a Form 5500 with the IRS that basically outlines how much money is in the fund and what are the assets, what are the liabilities, if there’s any loans, what are the admin expenses. And a lot of those are just a dollar amount that’s populated in there. So like sometimes you might see like, ‘Oh, my administrative fee is 1.2%.’ And then the next time we log into our tool, it’s 1.4% just because there’s new data that’s been filed with the IRS. So it’s a little bit of a moving target as well. And I think the — you know, I think I read a stat somewhere that the average 401k all-in expense is about like 1.68%.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s wild.

Tim Baker: So — yeah. And again, when I look at our 401k that we’ve set up at YFP, I think it’s less than .2%. I think the fees have changed a little bit for ours, but I think when you look at the expense ratio and everything, it’s less than .2%. So it’s a factor of 8. So if I’m paying $1,000 — and again, that’s a pretty large 401k with that, then I don’t want to pay $8,000 a year. So those are some of the things that most people when they say, ‘Oh, like 1.2% is not bad,’ but then when we actually put in dollars — and then if we compound that year over year, it really adds up. So to me, the fees are so important. And I think another discussion to have is like OK, but like are the fees worth it?

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right. Yep.

Tim Baker: And I would say in a lot of the cases, no. I mean, with some of these fees, you have to pay the fees to be able to like have the fund run and things like that. But in a lot of cases, if you’re paying 10x the amount in terms of an expense ratio, you’re not getting 10x the performance or it’s not 10x safer for the same amount of performance. So every type of fee is going to be different in why you would pay this versus that, but in most cases, the name of the game is to kind of shave that down as much as you can to really the investments unadulterated so it can grow and really allow you to build wealth over 10, 20, 30 years, whatever the time horizon is.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think one of the things, Tim, I’ve heard you say often is that our job, your job, and the planning team’s job, one of the roles is to really try to keep as much of that contribution intact as possible and allow the compound growth to do its thing, right? So really minimize the fees that are coming out of that. And I think that’s so important. You know, again, back to my earlier comment, if you’re already doing the hard work, right, to put away whatever percentage of your income each and every month towards long-term savings, then why do we want to give up anything in terms of the fees? And that example you gave is really powerful, that independent pharmacist who’s got $250,000 in that account with a 1.27%, which is, as you mentioned, is lower than the average 401k. You know, that’s a little over $3,000 this year. But as that account continues to grow and compound, that $250,000 is eventually going to turn into likely $300,000 and $400,000 and $500,000 and so on. And that fee obviously will continue to go up over time. So let me ask the big and nebulous question. Like yeah, maybe a 10x fee isn’t worth or justified that you’re going to have that value, but is there a place where the fees are justified? You know, such that whatever would be the net return inclusive of fees makes the fees worth it? And how do you evaluate that decision?

Tim Baker: Yeah, I mean, I think with — so it’s going to sound a little self-serving, but I think if you’re paying an advisor, a fiduciary, a fee-only advisor, and you’re paying them say whatever percentage out of your investments to be able to do financial planning or investment management or what we do, which is very comprehensive with the tax work and really a lot of different components there, I think that the return that you get far exceeds what you pay. The idea is that our focus is on more of wealth building, not necessarily just the investments and everything else but it kind of is beyond that. When I think of the — if you take things like expense ratio as an example, I’m looking at a client who — you know, and that same client that was at 1.27%, I think when we first started working with them, it was close to 2% because there are things that you can control and there are things that you can’t control with regard to the 401k. So things that you can’t really control are things like administrative, record keeping fees. Like that’s just — you know, I always talk about with the investments in a 401k, that’s the sandbox. Like those are the toys that you can play with. There’s only 10, 20 mutual funds in there. And it’s the same thing, like with some of the fees, you can’t really effect change unless you’re small enough that you can, you work for an independent pharmacy, you can say, “Hey, boss, this 401k is pretty terrible. Can we replace it?” For bigger organizations, that’s a harder thing to go about. So you’re kind of stuck with those fees. But things that you can control somewhat are things like the expense ratio. So this particular client’s, her average investment fees are .06%. So that’s her expense ratio. But when we started, it was closer to .8%. So again, a $100,000 portfolio, just for this part of the portfolio, she’s paying $60 per year whereas before she’s paying over $800. So the reason that we did that — or how we got there is that the funds that she was in, she was selecting a lot of the funds that she heard of like American funds or I think there was like a Morgan Stanley here and JP Morgan. And these funds are more expensive as in comparison. So I’m in this particular portfolio, and I’m looking at the mid-cap fund that she was in, it’s called a Touchstone mid cap, and the ticker is TMPIX. That costs .9%. So if I had $100,000 just in this, I would be paying $900 per year. What we replaced that with was an iShares fund that basically is .05%. So .9% versus .05%. So $50 on $100,000 or $900. So like those are things that you can control. And for the most part, there’s going to be differences, especially as you get to mid and small and international funds. Like there will be some differences in performance and some differences here and there, but for the most part, you know, like if I look at those same funds and I have the data that says over the course of a year, the mid cap iShares that we put her in is up 56%. The one that was more expensive is up 33%. You know, five years, it’s pretty close, 17% with the one that we put her in, 16%. So the performance, these are things you have to look at: since inception, 10% versus 9% for that. So like there are things that you have to look at, but typically the expense that you pay is not worth it. And for things like large cap, when you click into those and you say, ‘OK, what am I actually invested in?’ So like what are the underlying funds, it’s the same stuff, Tim. It’s things like that we know about. It’s Apple, it’s Microsoft, it’s Amazon, Facebook. It’s just that if you wrap it in a more expensive wrapper, you charge 5, 6, 10x just because it’s a known entity, even though Vanguard and iShares are pretty known, there is — like from a large cap fund, it should be very cheap because everyone is invested in the same stuff. So I don’t like paying high administrative fees. I don’t mind paying like a flat dollar amount, so like there’s sometimes you see like, oh, it’s $80. OK. That’s better than .8%. Expense ratio, I don’t like paying a high expense ratio. I don’t like when advisors charge commission. I just think that there’s a conflict of interest there. So these are typically outside of the 401k. So I think it’s OK to pay a fee for professional help, but it just depends on like what do you get for that? And you know, and all of the associated fees that come with that, what do you get for that? So if there are 401k’s that charge you .2% or less and then there’s some that charge you close to 2%, that’s a big range over the course of — and are you getting 12x more value there? And I typically say the answer is no.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I think it’s just a really good reminder, you know, Tim, that No. 1, not all fees are created equal. Right? So really asking yourself, what may or may not be justified with this fee? And then you know, I think really evaluating and understanding what your current fee situation is and recognizing that some of that may not be in your control, to your point, that especially for those that work for a larger organization, unless you’ve got the ear of HR and can influence those decisions, that 401k plan is probably what it is in terms of some of those fees. But within the fee options, might you have some control when it comes to expense ratio and then obviously in other accounts, IRA and so forth, then you can leverage other options to reduce those fees. Tim, I suspect that many of our listeners, especially those that are listening today that have been saving for some time, might be investing in mutual funds through various institutions to be unnamed and are paying substantial fees and, as we’ve discussed, aren’t even aware of it. So I want to take a few minutes to just break down the A, B, Cs of mutual funds. And that’s A shares, B shares, and C shares. So can you quickly define the difference between A shares, B shares, and C shares and then talk to us a little bit about what is the fees or could be the fees associated with those types of shares?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so whenever you see A shares, B shares, C shares, what you typically — think commission. So that’s — it’s a sales commission for that intermediary, the intermediary being the financial advisor, that is selling you a product, i.e. a mutual fund, in exchange for a commission. And I’ve sold these in the past, so like I’m a big proponent of fee-only. I haven’t always been a fee-only advisor. I started in the industry in fee-based, which is often confused for fee-only. A lot of the fee-only people want advisors that are fee-based to identify as fee and commission. So when I was in this model, I thought, again, I thought we were great because we didn’t have to sell a proprietary product that was with one of the big financial institutions. We could basically sell whatever we wanted. But the reality is that you want to really work with someone that is not selling on commission, in my opinion, because I think there’s a conflict of interest there. So anytime that you have the sale of a product with advice, there’s a conflict. So when you hear or see A, B, C shares — and you can typically see this, you can see this on the statement, but it’s not necessarily as intuitive as you would want it. So like I’m looking at a statement from a very big institution that I know goes and markets to pharmacists, talks to pharmacy schools, but on the statement, I see the mutual funds that this particular pharmacist was in was a Washington Mutual Investors Fund, CL A. So CL A. So that’s Class A, which that’s an A share mutual fund. So what that means is that for an A share mutual fund, these are up front basically fees or commissions with lower expense ratios. So these are typically better for long-term investors. I would say they’re not necessarily good for anybody. But the idea, Tim, is that if this particular — say you opened up an IRA with me and I basically charged you an A share commission, this particular fund I think basically charges 5.75%. So $5,000 times 5.75%, that’s a $287 commission that goes straight to me. So basically, when I look at my statement the next time, my statement is going to be like $4,700. It’s going to be $300 short. A lot of advisors don’t necessarily like to sell those because it can be very, you know, abrupt for clients. The other way to basically sell these — and I’ve never sold a B share, and I’m not sure how prevalent they are, but a B share, it’s basically, it has high exit fees for when you sell and higher expense ratios. But they convert over to A shares over basically the course of many years. So the idea is that you don’t get that kind of abrupt fee, but if you hold the investment long enough, it basically converts into an A share. And I don’t have as much experience with these and I haven’t seen these much, even on statements. But the one that I do see fairly often is called a C share. So these have higher expense ratios than A shares and a small exit fee that’s typically waived after one year. So the idea is that in that same example, if you were to basically buy, put $5,000 into a C share mutual fund, you wouldn’t necessarily get hit with a big commission up front, but what’s basically on there is — and it’s kind of built into the total expense ratio — is 12b1 fees. So this is like a marketing fee. So as the advisor, I would be making say like 1% as long as you held that investment. So it’s more of a trailing commission that you pay versus an up front commission. And these could be very prohibitive to an investor. Lots of fees that you really don’t understand how you’re paying. And the advisor is basically getting paid that marketing or that service fee over the course of however long you’ve held that investment.

Tim Ulbrich: So Tim, let me ask the question that I suspect many of our listeners are thinking, that I’m thinking individually as you describe A shares, B shares, C shares on the heels of our discussion of today’s day and age where we can obviously have an option to reduce some of those fees, whether that be up front trading fees or even ongoing expense ratios. There’s other options that are out there. What is the role, if any, for these A shares, B shares, and C shares? Like are these ever in the best interest of a client? And I say that dramatically knowing it’s not a black-and-white answer, but why would I invest in an A share, B share, or C share?

Tim Baker: So in my experience in this world, you would charge a client — and this is going to be very true for many kind of new practitioners and pharmacists that are out there that are maybe seeking help and a lot of people that are listening to this. So the industry and really why I’m here sitting in this seat and why, Tim, we’re partners, it kind of is derived from the story or the way that the industry basically operates. So when I was in the fee and commission, the fee-based world, it was — and I started working with a lot of pharmacists — the going advice was — you know, and I remember, I actually remember, I have this pivotal memory where I was talking to my mentor and I think the pharmacist couple that I was working with, they had something like $300,000 in student loans. And I was like, ‘Hey, mentor, like what do you think that we should do with this client’s?’ And basically, the advice was, to me, to how to advise the client was to say, “Hey, just tell them the loans will figure themselves out. Either a snowball or something like that, focus on the highest interest first,” which is terrible advice, Tim, as we all know, that the student loans are going to be more nuanced. And then you know, because this client maybe had like $20,000 to invest, that’s not a lot of money. So like it was sell them insurance that they didn’t need, so whether that was life or disability insurance, and then invest their IRA or something like that and then just touch base with them every couple years until they have $50,000, $100,000, $250,000, and then you can actually ‘help’ them. The problem with this model, Tim, is that it’s not a planning issue. Like we work with clients that are in their 30s that there is a lot of need there to get their investments, their debt, their cash flowing budgeting, their insurance, their credit, their taxes, all humming and working in a unified fashion that we’re really trying to take the resources that the client has and apply them in a way that is a wealthy life to them. It’s not a planning issue. It’s a pricing issue. And unfortunately, the way that the industry is set up is that, hey, unless you have investments, I can’t really do anything for you. And it’s because somebody with $20,000, that’s $200 a year on a 1% AUM versus if someone had $200,000, 1%, that’s $2,000. So money talks, right? So that’s where A share and C share and those types of commissions come into play is like typically if it was less than $50,000 or typically less than $100,000, you would charge these commissions, especially the A share, because it was a higher upfront or a C share because it was more — I want to say it was more undetected, under the radar. And then you would couple that with a crappy insurance product or disability that they might not need. Or maybe they do need, but you’re still making commission on that. And that was a way for you to help the client and make a little bit of money, feed yourself at the same time. And I don’t want to — so I also don’t want to paint a picture, sometimes especially in the fee-only community, there is this picture that’s painted that like people that charge commissions are evil. They’re not. They’re not. It’s just the difference in model. And you know, I was early enough in my career that I recognized — in financial services — that I recognized that there was a better way, and that’s being fee-only and that’s not charging these commissions. So I was able to pivot away from that. It’s not that they’re evil, it’s just that I think the model or the system that they’re in doesn’t necessarily suit itself for a lot of clients. You know, typically — we talk about this with insurance — typically the better the insurance product is for the person that’s selling it, the worse it is for the person that’s basically buying it. So there is this kind of 0-sum, so to speak. So if you’re out there and you’re like, ‘Hmm, I’m listening to Tim and I’m going to look at my statement and see,’ if you see like A’s and C’s next to your mutual fund that says Class A or just I’m looking at one that says Investo Equity and Income Funds C, I know that that particular — at that particular time, he’s being charged kind of an ongoing trail that’s eating away. And again, if he’s being serviced for that, maybe that’s worth it. But in most cases, it’s not. I wouldn’t say that there’s ever — there’s never a time — but I would say, you know, again, there are advisors out there that will work with you in a fiduciary capacity and that should be divorced from the commissions that you would make from selling a product. So one of the things that, you know, kind of longer story longer, Tim, one of the things that I talk about, when I was in the broker-dealer world, the fee-based, fee and commission world, this is the story that I tell prospects and clients is you know, I would show up to the office and I would see on my counter, I’m like, ‘Oh, this mutual fund wholesaler is going to come a-knocking.’ And that wholesaler would show up to our office in a fancy suit, he would take basically the advisors in our office, which was me and my mentor, he would take us out to a fancy dinner or a fancy lunch, I should say, he would show us fancy glossies about why his funds were so — or her funds were so great. And then he would basically say, “Hey, when your client Tim Ulbrich, when he leaves his job or if he has money on the side and he wants to roll over that Fidelity 401k, like use our funds.” And —

Tim Ulbrich: Sounds like another industry I know, Tim.

Tim Baker: Yeah, it sounds like drug rep, right? And when I say that, most people are like, ‘Oh yeah.’ But here’s the difference, Tim. Like in the medical world, my understanding is that it’s illegal for physicians to get kickbacks from pharmaceutical companies because it taints their ability to prescribe medication without the strings attached, right?

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. Yep.

Tim Baker: But if we compare that to my industry, the financial services, not only is it legal, it’s prevalent. So like 95% of advisors out there operate in this manner. So like now, like no one takes me out to lunch, Tim. No one takes me out to lunch because I’m not incentivized to put someone in these mutual funds because I don’t make a commission from that. So what I’m incentivized to do is to put the client in the best situation across the board, but particularly for the investments we’re talking about where they’re paying the least amount for the most gain. So like, I would get through those lunches — again, they’re not all bad. You would learn something. But you kind of felt like you needed to take a shower because you kind of — you know, they gave you something. They gave you a nice lunch, so you’re kind of like, alright, well, if this client rolls it over, you kind of feel beholden to them. And I just hated that feeling. And by the way, if you’re putting those sales rep out in the field, that costs money.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Tim Baker: Who pays for that? The investor does. And that typically means that fund that you’re investing in is going to be more expensive. So I remember having this conversation, you know, and I was talking to this old wholesaler, this experienced, I should say, wholesaler, and I’m like — and I found the kind of story to really dig deeper, and I’m like, “So how can you guys justify charging 1.5% on your large cap when I could put the client in a Vanguard fund that’s .05%?” And he started talking about like, you know — and again, there was nothing about that when I was buying because it’s literally 10x more — like it’s so much more, and I just don’t think that you get that return. So I know a little bit — kind of on a tangent there — but to me, it’s one of these things that I think as a pharmacist, these are things that you probably aren’t looking at that over the course of years really have a compounding factor, either from a negative perspective or if you can remove those, it can be very positive. So it’s important to maybe dust off your statement and look at it and really understand what you’re paying.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and as we zoom out for a moment, Tim, to that point coming full circle here, don’t underestimate the long-term impact of these fees. You know, any one year, especially for those that are maybe getting started with investing and haven’t built up that large portfolio, you might look at 1%, 1.2%, 1.5% and say, ‘Eh, what’s the big deal?’ But if you look at 1.5%, as an example, versus .2% as another example and perhaps even an opportunity to get lower than that, over the long range of 30 or 35 years, that’s a big frickin’ deal.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Big deal. And I wrote a blog post a couple years back that we’ll link to in the show notes really showing two side-by-side examples of somebody who’s investing over 35 years, another person same timeline, 1.5% average annual fee versus .2%, and it ends up being the difference of $1 million. And the title of that article is “Are You Making this $1 Million Mistake?” And you know, for some, maybe it’s larger. For others, maybe it’s a little bit smaller. But I think it’s so important that we uncover, understand, and begin to put a plan in place that can minimize these fees if possible wherever you have control of doing that. Tim, two perspectives I want to talk about as we wrap up this really important: And that’s first, from the perspective of, ‘Hey, I’m listening and I’m at the beginning of my investing journey. What can I do?’ And then somebody who’s listening that says, ‘You know what, I’m more in the wealth-building phase. I’ve been investing, maybe I’ve got a loose understanding of some of these fees but I’m not exactly sure. And what can I do and pivot now? And is it perhaps too late or not?’ So what would you say to those two individuals, one who’s just getting started, what tangible steps that I can take, and somebody who’s maybe a little bit later on in their journey and wondering is it too late and are there steps that I can take to help reconcile some of this issue around fees?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think for both of those buckets of people, I think it really goes back to what are your goals, right? So I think some people, they work with an advisor because they think that’s the right thing to do. And the advisor, you know, unfortunately sometimes it’s like every solution is the same. So everyone needs insurance and I need to make that commission. And that’s not true. I think it’s really understanding what your goals are, and that’s the first and foremost thing. And I think from there, if you’re at the beginning of the journey, I think it’s ask questions. You know, if I’m looking at my 401k statement, I want to understand why am I paying these fees? A lot of 401k’s, they have these managed solutions, and I’m like, well what do you get for that? And most of the time, it’s not a whole lot. Same thing like if you’re at the beginning and you maybe, you were contacted by an advisor in pharmacy school, chances are if you started working with them, a lot of those in mutual funds and IRAs and even — we just signed on a client that was sold this recently, and we’re like, it’s kind of a process of unwinding them. It’s really being cognizant of this and don’t sweep this under the rug. So like it’s definitely something that can compound over many, many years. So you want to get it right out of the gate. And it isn’t ever too late. So for the second, for the wealth-building phase, people that maybe have been working with an advisor for a long time or maybe their advisor is someone that’s been in the family, things have changed. So like even 10 years ago, what was offered in terms of high expenses and commissions and things like that, that day is thankfully dying with the advent of Vanguard and really trying to drive fees down and things like that. But I look at some of these well-known institutions that a lot of pharmacists work with, there’s just a better route. So like, you know, I’m looking at this particular statement, and the all-in for what this particular client was paying on commissions and everything like that was something like 1.75%.

Tim Ulbrich: Sheesh.

Tim Baker: You know? And if I compare that to like what we do, like if we were to move that into an IRA, it’s like .05%. And it almost sounds like fake. It sounds like it’s not real. But the reality is it’s like if you can get your money in a position where it’s unadulterated by those kind of hidden — and I could say they are kind of hidden because if you look at the statement and I search like “commission” or “fee,” it’s nonexistent. There might be like a fee disclaimer in the small print, but again, it’s not a line item that’s very obvious to the investor. So I would just say, like I would question, again, if you’re in a wealth-building stage, I would question what you’re currently in and if there’s a better way, just like we do with car insurance and things like that. There are opportunities out there to potentially be in a better position to again, really allow you to build money and grow wealth over time.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and Tim, I would wrap up here by telling our listeners and community, whether you’re at the beginning of this journey, whether you’re in that wealth-building phase, whether you’re somewhere in between, I think this obviously is such an important topic. And we would love to have the opportunity to talk with you to see if what we offer at YFP Planning is a good fit for you and your individual plan and situation. And folks can find more by going to YFPPlanning.com, they can schedule a free discovery call. And I’m going to toot our own horn for a minute, but I’m so proud of what we have built — Tim, really what you have built starting back in the days of Script Financial, which is a fee-only comprehensive financial planning model. And one of the things I so appreciate about that model is it’s fully transparent, the fees are the fees in terms of what we charge for our services, and the client is paying our financial planning team for the advice that they’re giving related to their financial plan as a whole. So you know, whether that means we’ve got to spend a boatload of time on the investments and the retirement side of the plan, whether that’s we need to spend some time on the tax side or the insurance side or the student loan side or the home buying side, whatever would be the aspect of the financial plan, by nature, because of how that client is transparently paying for the advice and the transparency of those fees, we can spend the time where we feel like it’s most needed for the client and their financial plan and ultimately is in their best interest. And so that’s a model that I’m really proud of that we offer to the YFP community and for folks that are looking for a financial planner or perhaps re-evaluating the relationship they have currently, head on over to YFPPlanning.com and you can schedule a free discovery call. Tim Baker, great stuff, as always. And appreciate your time and expertise here as it relates to the discussion of fees and looking forward to upcoming content we have for the second half of 2021.

Tim Baker: Yeah, thanks, Tim.

Tim Ulbrich: As always, a thank you to the listeners for joining us on this week’s episode. And as we wrap up this first half of 2021, we appreciate you listening but also would appreciate if you could leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts, which ultimately helps other people find this show. Our mission is to help as many pharmacy professionals as we can on their path towards achieving financial freedom, and one way we can do that is by reaching more people with this show. So if you haven’t already done so, please do us that favor, leave us a rating and review and ultimately that will help others find the show in the future. Thanks for joining us and have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 207: How to Avoid These 6 Common Financial Mistakes

Posted on by yfpadmin

How to Avoid These 6 Common Financial Mistakes

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, YFP Co-founder and Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, discusses common financial errors ranging from those made with investing, insurance, credit, and more. Whether you are just getting started with your financial plan or looking for a tune-up, this episode will help you avoid the most common financial blunders so you can maximize your financial plan and achieve your financial goals.

Summary

Tim Baker and Tim Ulbrich discuss six common financial mistakes and how to avoid them. While financial mistakes may seem inevitable, Tim and Tim speak from their own experiences with financial errors and share ways to prevent these mistakes from impacting your financial plan and financial goals.

Common financial errors discussed in this episode include:

1. Not taking advantage of employer match

When you don’t take advantage of your employer’s match, you essentially turn down free money. Many people don’t take full advantage of employer matches because they are not auto-enrolled to do so. Getting the maximum amount out of your employer match increases your compound interest over time.

2. No budget or no financial plan

Without a budget or financial plan, it is increasingly difficult to reach your financial goals. The budget is not a one-size-fits-all and should custom fit your personal experience and what works for you.

3. No insurance or inadequate insurance

As a pharmacist with a spouse, house, and mouths to feed, you should be aware of your insurance needs and insured for an event that will require insurance ranging from life, disability, or professional liability insurance.

4. Failure to monitor your credit reports

Tim Baker recommends checking your credit reports twice a year – he pulls his reports with the changing of the clocks for daylight savings. With the increase in the digital nature of personal information, it is critical to monitor your credit for errors and identity theft.

5. Not investing or not having the right attitude when it comes to investing

Being risk-averse may impact your long-term financial plan. Building and maintaining an appropriate asset allocation that matches your goals, risk tolerance, and time horizon while avoiding impulse purchases or hunches is a more intelligent way to positive investment returns.

6. Not utilizing professional advice

Financial professionals know what they are doing, and hiring someone allows you to have more free time to do the things you want to do.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, welcome back to the show.

Tim Baker: Hey, Tim, thanks. Thanks for having me back. It’s been awhile.

Tim Ulbrich: What’s new and exciting from YFP Planning’s perspective?

Tim Baker: It feels like a lot, Tim. I feel like this year is full of change and we’re excited. A lot of things going on in the background. We’ve had our lead planners out in Columbus to do some planning. It was good to kind of meet up and now that people are getting vaccinated, to be able to meet up and do some planning and talk about our goals. And that was exciting to kind of show the new office, which people may or may not know that YFP has bought headquarters in Columbus. And we’re in the process of kind of renovating a little bit and getting that ready for us to move here in — move in here shortly. And that’s been exciting and having to deal with contractors, maybe not as exciting. I think the team has continued to expand. We finish up tax season here, which is always hair on fire, and we had a lot of good help to go through that. But we actually welcomed back a former team member, now current member again, Christina Slavonik, who worked with me a year or so ago and decided to kind of come back into the fold. And we’re super excited to have her as part of the team. And yeah, so lots of changes, but all good things I think.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, certainly excited to have Christina back, what that means for our team. Pumped up about the new office and it’s an open invitation to any of the community that’s in Columbus or finds their way traveling through Columbus, we’d love to host you and have a chance to meet up with you. Please reach out to us. And a shoutout, as you mentioned, Tim, to our tax team. I mean, over 250 returns that we filed this year, lots of wrenches that were thrown their way with extensions and delays in state extensions and legislative pieces that were being passed in the middle of tax season. And I thought they handled it well, and we’re ultimately able to serve the community, and we very much believe tax is an important part of the financial plan. So excited to see that continuing to grow. So today, we’re talking all about common financial errors. And you and I know that financial errors seem inevitable. We’re all human; we all make mistakes. And one of our goals with YFP is to help you, the YFP community, and certainly our clients as well, to avoid as many financial mistakes as possible. And certainly we have lots of resources that are here to help in this, whether it be this podcast, blog posts, checklists, calculators, and certainly our one-on-one comprehensive financial planning services as well. And just to be clear, this is not about shaming by any means. This is about learning and hopefully avoiding a repeat of making the same mistakes. So if you’ve already made some of these mistakes, certainly Tim and I have. We often talk about these between the two of us. We’ll that here again today. So if you’ve made some of these mistakes, certainly this is not about beating yourself up. Take what you’ve learned and certainly apply that information, and hopefully that can help with avoiding future mishaps or help you to spread the word and encourage and teach others along the way as well. So Tim, let’s get to it. We’re going to warm up with what many consider low-hanging fruit. No. 1 financial error/mistake I’m going to list here is not taking advantage of the employer match. So talk to us about the employer match and why not taking advantage of it is a significant financial error.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think this is where often we say, it’s free money. So not often do you ever come across a situation where there’s money to be had, you know, without anything in return. So I think in a lot of cases — and I know there’s some gurus out there that say like if you’re in debt, you shouldn’t even do this, and I would probably disagree with that. I think there are some exceptions if you have lots of high interest like credit card debt, consumer debt, then this might be a situation where you don’t want to get the match. But I would say for the most part, if your employer has a 401k or a 403b match or whatever that is, you want to make sure that you are taking full advantage of that. Most employers are going to have matches that are going to incentivize you to put anywhere between 2-6% to get the full match. There are some that are designed to push you a little bit further. But for the most part, if you’re in that sweet spot of putting in 2-6% of your income into a 401k to get a full match, I would say to do that. The reason that you want to do this is because if you can get that dollar, those dollars deferred and into that retirement account, this all goes back to the concept of time in the market versus time in the market. And really taking advantage of more compounding periods to take advantage of the compound interest. So if you’re out there and you have — you’re looking at your student debt or if you have sizable consumer debt and you’re like, man, I just feel like I put money in and it stays the same, that’s compounding interest kind of taking advantage of you. And what we want to do is flip the script a bit and get that to where your money is making money. So Albert Einstein has said, “Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understands it, earns it. He who doesn’t, pays it.” So the idea here is that you can get your money to work in the investment world and keep it working and allow those dollars to make baby dollars and they make baby dollars. That’s the idea here. So it’s really about time in the market. We see this as less and less of an issue now that I think it was the Obama administration, you know, has really pushed 401k plans to have an auto-enroll feature. So based on studies on this, if we are the variable that gets in the way, meaning people, that we typically are going to go with whatever is the default. So if the default is not to enroll and you have to actually take steps to do that yourself, we’re not going to do that. If the default is that we’re already auto-enrolled, then that’s what we’re going to do. So a lot of these plans — and Tim, our plan has this — is that after a certain period of time, we auto-enroll participants and we say, “OK, we’re going to auto-enroll them at x%.” For ours right now and for — speaking of the YFP 401k — we auto-enroll at 3%. The maximum match is if they put 4% in. So they would just have to go in and make that determination that they would like to do that. So auto-enroll features on 401k’s have made this a little bit less of a common mistake, but they’re still there, nonetheless, and we still come across more than you would think of those that are not putting in at least to get to the company match. And just to kind of put a bow on this, think of this in this light: You know, if you’re a pharmacist and we use round numbers here — if you’re a pharmacist and you’re making $100,000 and your company offers you a 3% match, think of that — and you’re not taking advantage of that right now, think of this as like a 3% raise where you are making $103,000 because $3,000 of that is going into your company 401k. And it’s surprising, you know, I think if you — dependent on the 401k — and I know we’re going to talk about the fees in an upcoming episode — but dependent on the 401k, it’s surprising how quickly those types of accounts can grow if you are deferring dollars out of your paycheck so you’re hopefully not missing it too much, it invested in the right way, and it’s not being eaten away by fees. It’s surprising how quickly those accounts can grow. This is a big, big miss if you’re not necessarily taking advantage of a match.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff, Tim. And I think just to further highlight time value of money, and I think for those that are listening that are especially getting started on the employer contribution side and perhaps aren’t leaning into that match yet, there is some trust in the momentum in compound interest, right? You can run the calculations, see the numbers, but it does feel like early on that you’re putting money in and you’re not seeing that growth until obviously those funds get to a certain balance and then you start to see the momentum of the growth on the growth. But to take your example, Tim, of somebody making $100,000, 3% employer match, $3,000, I would encourage folks to also think about it’s not just that $3,000. It’s what would that $3,000 be worth in 25 or 30 years? Right? So you know, that $3,000, if that were to grow at let’s say 7% average annual rate of return over 25 years, that $3,000 in 25 years is worth more than $16,000. So time value of money is not just what does it mean in today’s dollars, but what would it also mean in the opportunity cost of not investing those dollars? So that’s No. 1, not taking advantage of the employer match. No. 2 is no budget, no financial plan. Harsh words, Tim Baker. What do you mean by that? And you know, budgeting, spending plan, whatever we want to call it, why is it so critical to the financial plan?

Tim Baker: And some people would disagree with this. But I guess some people, especially if they might lend credence to like, you know, if you’re starting out, if you’re a new practitioner, definitely budget. If you get to a certain inflection point, you don’t need to budget. I would disagree in a sense. If you think about this in terms of like if you think about your household and the salaries you make as like revenue, if you’re a household and you’re making $200,000-250,000 as a household and you equate that to like a business and a business making that revenue, businesses are going to have budgets, they’re going to have projections, they’re going to bucket money for certain — just like we do, Tim, at YFP. You know, we have ‘this is the amount of money we want to spend on marketing, and this is the amount of money that we want to spend here and there.’ Like that’s a budget. And I would say that if you treat your household as a company, like you’re going to earmark those for different purposes. So I think this is a way of how you go about and do that. So I think where budgeting kind of gets a bad rep is the $0-based budget where every dollar has a job and you basically assign a purpose for every dollar that kind of flows through the household. And for some people, that can be super arduous, that can be super over-the-top. But I don’t necessarily think it’s an exercise that doesn’t have merit or value. But I think typically as you go, you find the flavor of ice cream that works for you. So there’s lots of different types of budgets out there. You know, you have the $0-based. I’ve seen a line item budget, I’ve seen a pay yourself first budget. There’s a lot of different ways to go about it. I think at the end of the day, a budget goes back to what is the intention of the resources that you have.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Tim Baker: And applying that to — and by intention, we typically mean like goals. So what are the goals that you have? What are you intentionally trying to achieve with the six figures of income that you’re earning? And how do we go about that? So the budget is typically the structure or the steps to go from ‘Hey, I want to travel,’ or ‘I want to be able to give back,’ or ‘I want to be able to take care of an aging parent.’ The budget is typically the mechanism that allows that to kind of come to be. So I would say that this is typically lockstep with the savings plan. Most financial planners, in my opinion, they’ll say, “OK, your savings plan is your emergency fund, and that’s it. So you need to have $20,000 in your emergency fund as an example or $30,000 in an emergency fund,” and then it stops there. I think it needs to go further. So I think your budget and how you’re spending needs to kind of be in sync with how you’re deliberately saving for different things that are basically on the docket for goals. So — and I wouldn’t even call this a step, Tim. It’s a process. I’m a big Sixers fan, trust the process. Hopefully JoJo is going to come back —

Tim Ulbrich: I was going to say…

Tim Baker: No, but it’s a process. And I think what people do and where they get hung up on budgeting is that it’s more about striving for improvement and not perfection.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that’s right.

Tim Baker: We want everything to be balanced, we want everything to kind of line up. And in most cases, that’s not going to happen. So depending on the budget and what flavor that suits you best is going to really allow you to kind of figure out how it works. So to me, this is really about being more intentional with spending, being more intentional with kind of top-line revenue. So this is not just an effort in kind of an exercise in scarcity of like, hey, this is what the pie is. I want to challenge you to grow the pie. So to me, it’s looking at both sides of that equation and really striving for improvement of what you’re trying to accomplish and not perfection. So I think that if you can kind of wrap your arms around that and not be wed to one way of doing things, then I think you’re going to see improvement. So and there’s lots of different tools out there, technologies, Mint, YNAB, some people use good old-fashioned spreadsheets, some people use envelopes, like physical envelopes to do this. At the end of the day, you know, I think the question you should be asking is, am I intentional with how I’m spending? Am I intentional with how I’m bringing money into the household? And does this align with the goals that I have set out for myself. And if it doesn’t, then I think that’s where you kind of need a little bit of a gut check to make sure that you’re on track.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, intentionality really stands out there to me, Tim, whether someone’s listening and they’ve got a net worth of -$400,000 or a net worth of $4 million. The process may look different, the intensity of the month-to-month might look very different, but at the end of the day, like budgeting, whatever you want to call it, to your point about looking at it from the point of a business, it’s about what are the goals, what are we trying to achieve, and then what’s the plan to make sure that that’s a reality. And the buckets might look bigger or smaller, the process might look more or less intense. But it’s about being intentional with the goals and the plan. For those that are looking for a starting point, a template, a process, you can go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/budget. We do have a spreadsheet that you can get started with, certainly not necessarily the ending point. You can implement technology tools and evolve it from there, but that can be a good starting point. So that’s No. 2, no budget, no financial plan. No. 3 is no or inadequate insurance. I’ve mentioned before, Tim, on this podcast that insurance I think is an often overlooked part of the financial plan for obvious reasons. Thinking about something like a death or a disability or a professional liability claim isn’t necessarily the most exciting thing to think about when it comes to financial planning, especially when we can think about things like investing or saving for the future or getting rid of that student loan debt. So tell us here about what you see as some of the common pitfalls around inadequate insurance coverage.

Tim Baker: I think what a lot of people default to, a lot of pharmacists default to, is that what their employer provides as part of their compensation package is the plan for their insurance. And it’s not. It’s typically — we view it as a benefit that should be taken into consideration as we’re building out an insurance plan for your financial plan. And we’re really talking about the protection here, so like what we talk about with our YFP planning clients is how are we helping them growing and protecting — so protecting being the operative word in this step — their income and growing and protecting their net worth while keeping their goals in mind? So protection here is what we’re talking about. And typically, you know, what we focus on is things like life, disability, and professional liability. So your employer might provide you different coverages based on the employer. And that’s going to mean different things to different people, depending on their life situation. But oftentimes with pharmacists, you need to take more action in this or you run the risk of exposing yourself to a loss that could potentially be catastrophic. So you know, health insurance — so I would say that the one thing that is a plan and not necessarily a perk is health insurance. So health insurance, you’re typically best to go with the group policy, although that could change in the future. That could change where the way that employer compensation packages are designed in our country is that if the government isn’t providing that, it’s health insurance the employer does. That could change in the future, and we’ve seen that with things like pensions and 401k’s where pensions have gone away and they’ve been more robust, and a lot of it put the onus back on the employee for saving for retirement. So that could change in the future. But if we break down the insurance piece, a big miss is if we say not having adequate insurance is knowing what to have, knowing what you think that you need from particularly a life and disability insurance policy. You know, I typically say with regard to life insurance — and another piece of the protection of the financial plan is estate insurance — is that typically when you have a spouse, a house, and mouths to feed, those are typically going to be the opportunities to make sure that you are protected from a life insurance perspective and from an estate planning perspective. So more often than not, pharmacists are going to need a lot more of a benefit than what their employer can provide. So that’s typically where you want to go out into the individual policy world and make sure that you are fully protected. That’s one of the problems in the financial services industry too is like we come across a lot of pharmacists, Tim, that they might be 27 or 28 and they’ve been sold a crappy insurance policy, life insurance policy, that they don’t need, right? Because they don’t have a mortgage, they don’t have other dependents relying on them, their loans are going to be forgiven upon death or disability, so it’s just a policy that they probably don’t need right now. So it’s kind of like you have a hammer and you see a nail and it was a good cookie-cutter solution for everyone. One of the mistakes here is not understanding the need. So like we’ll have clients that will come in that will have young kids and things like insurance are not even brought up. And I look at that and I’m like, that’s a big risk. Like the student loans are important, and you’re talking about real estate investing and some other things, but like we probably need to address this first. So — and it’s typical, right? We don’t want to — we typically think that it’s not going to happen to us, a premature death or disability. So it’s very natural. So that’s part of the planner’s job is to kind of bring that to the forefront and make the proper recommendations. The other thing we’ve been talking about is disability insurance. So these are typically more likely to happen and typically more expensive because you typically have medical bills that are going to pile up as a result of a disability. So having the proper insurance there, whether that is through your employer or your own policy or buying a supplemental policy to kind of make you not whole but make you to — indemnify you to a certain threshold that you feel like you can continue the household, that’s a big thing. And a lot of these policies, the way that they’re written don’t provide a lot of protection. So it’s really looking at does it make sense to add a policy for yourself? So the idea here is that the sooner, the better. Whether it’s life, disability, the younger that you can get these policies in place, typically the better from a cost perspective. A lot of the policies that you have through your employer, the group policies, they’re not portable. Or if they are, they’re not great compared to the individual policies. So I think if you can have these separate from the employer, it makes a lot of sense with regard to protecting your financial plan.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think you’ve covered a lot here, and there’s just a lot to think through. And we’ve only talked through very briefly three different areas. You mentioned professional liability, life, disability. But questions of like, what do you need? What do you not need? Based on what you do need, how do you shop for those, looking for policies that — and getting advice that really has your best interests in mind to make sure you’re not underinsured or overinsured? What does your employer offer? What do they not offer? What’s the gap? What are the tax implications? So important part of the plan. I think our planning team does an awesome job of weaving this in and for folks to consider, are they underinsured? Do they have adequate insurance or not? And how does that fit in with the rest of their financial goals and plans? So that’s No. 3, no or inadequate insurance. No. 4, Tim, failure to monitor credit reports. Wow. When I think of checking a credit report, I think of boring, No. 1. No. 2 is necessary, right? So you know, why is this such an important step? How often should one be doing it? And why do they need to monitor credit reports over time?

Tim Baker: Yeah, and I would definitely chalk this up to like to stage of life. So you know, if you’re more Gen X or Baby Boomer, this might not be as important because you might not be making the big decisions, although you could be sending kids to college, there might be some loans that you’re taking out. But I would say that if you’re — a lot of the clients that we work with, you know, especially as they’re starting their careers, there’s a lot of decisions that are being made that credit granting is on the table. So that’s like home purchase, car purchase, things like that. Naturally, because of age of credit, your credit is going to become stronger and stronger as you go because that’s the way that the factors that kind of go into your credit score, age of credit is a big one. But I think the big thing that is kind of universal here that is becoming more and more of a thing is just the identity theft stuff. So as our lives become more and more digital and there’s more exposure to theft, it’s kind of this cat-and-mouse game. It’s not really a question of if, it’s really when. Having kind of eyes on this is really important. So I like to typically recommend that we check credit at least twice per year. So I kind of do it when the clocks change, so when we spring forward and fall back. I myself have gone through this exercise. I’ve found large enough mistakes on my credit report that drastically changed my credit score. And this is even — like when I first started advising clients on credit, this was before the days of like banks learning kind of suspicious behavior. A lot of these banks, a lot of these institutions, they’ve come a long way to alert you and kind of give you some structural things to look at, you know, if you have expenses that are out-of-state or whatever. Even in that environment, there were some things that were from my credit report that should not have been there, that drastically changed my score. So typically, you see differences in scores because you have different formulas that every Equifax, Experian, Transunion are using to calculate your score. Different creditors are going to report differently. So if you buy a Toyota, they might be really good about reporting to Equifax but not Transunion for some reason. Or Mastercard is really good, but this other company isn’t. So you’re going to have different inputs. And really, that’s going to be the big factor that will see why your scores are different. But I think the big thing for all those that are out there listening to this is going to just be from an identity theft. And I’ve looked at client credit reports, and I’ve made comments about hey, these are things that we can do to improve this or these are different factors to consider, but I can’t look at a credit report and know that hey, this doesn’t belong there. So it’s really kind of home cooking that is really important here. So the Fact Act that was enacted I think in 2003 allows you to access your credit report for free one time per year from each of the three reporting agencies for free. So you go to annualcreditreport.com. It sounds fake, it sounds kind of hokey, but that’s the way to — the site that you want to go to is annualcreditreport.com, and pull your credit score from each of the reporting agencies. I would just kind of rotate them through and take a glance at it, see if there’s anything fishy or — and then you can always dispute things that are inaccurate, and it’s pretty easy to do that on the website there. So that would be a big thing that I would make sure that you want to build into your practice.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I think to your point, this is a good maintenance part of the financial plan, right? It’s like periodic oil changes, like we’ve got to be doing this. I like your rhythm of when the clocks change, twice per year, again, annualcreditreport.com. We talk about tax being a thread of the financial plan, credit is a financial — is a thread of the financial plan, impacts so many different areas, whether that would be home buying, real estate investing, business purchases, you mentioned identity theft, so something we’ve got to stay on top of. We did an episode, Episode 162, where we talked all about credit, importance of credit, improving your credit, understanding your credit score, credit security practices, so I’d encourage you to check that out. Again, Episode 162. Tim, No. 5 here on our list of common financial errors is not investing or improper attitude towards investing. Now, I think we’ve talked a little bit about not investing when we talked about not taking advantage of the employer match. So obviously time value of money, compound interest, we’ve got to be in the market. Talk to us more about the improper attitude towards investing. What do you mean there?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think there’s like two extremes here when I would say that typically doesn’t necessarily align, which I think with what I think is a healthy investment portfolio. So one is not wanting to dip your toes into the market. So I kind of hear like, ‘Oh, I don’t want to take risks. I don’t want to lose any money.’ And I think for us to kind of stay in front of things like the inflation monster, like taxes, you can’t just stuff your mattress full of dollars and hope to one day be able to retire comfortably. You know, so it’s kind of like if you want to make an omelet, you’ve got to crack some eggs. So the idea here is that we need to build out a portfolio that takes risk intelligently but that is over the course of your career in line with what you’re trying to achieve. And most people, you know, if you’re in your 20s, 30s, 40s, and maybe even 50s, they typically are more heavily weighted in bonds than they need to be, in my opinion. So you know, a lot of people when the market crashed at the beginning of the pandemic, they’re like, oh my goodness, Tim, like I want to take my investment ball and go home, meaning like I want to get out of this investment. And the idea is no, like let’s keep going. Either let’s put more money in or let’s hold the course. So you want to do exactly what the opposite of how you feel. So you know, the big drivers in your ability to build wealth over time from an investment perspective is that you have the appropriate asset allocation, so the mix between stocks and bonds, and really driving your fees as low as possible with regard to the investments. In a lot of cases, when we look at our clients, there’s a lot of opportunity for improvement there. And one of the things we talk about in webinars and even in our presentation with clients is that you look at all the variables in investing, and we have conservative — we talk about Conservative Jane. So Conservative Jane makes $120,000, she gets 3% cost of living raises, she works for 30 years, but she doesn’t invest the dollars. She basically keeps them in cash or like a Money Market. At the end of that time period, she has $600,000. But then we look at Aggressive Jane, who does the exact same thing except the only thing that she changes — and I think the big thing is she puts 10% into her 401k — the only thing that Aggressive Jane does differently than Conservative Jane is that she trusts the market in the long run. So the market returns about 10% year over year, and we adjust it down for inflation to about 6.87%. And Aggressive Jane is not saving harder, she’s not working longer, she’s not making more money, she’s just trusting in the market over that amount of time, and the swing is about — I think it’s $1.2 million. So Aggressive Jane at the end of those 30 years will have $1.8 million. So that’s very impactful if you can internalize that and bake that into your investment strategy is really trust the market. Over long periods of time, it’s very predictable. The only other thing I think I’ll say about this is the other side of that is that people have maybe unrealistic expectations of their investments. So they think that if they invest a certain way for four or five years that they’re going to have this portfolio that it can live off the interest. That’s not the case, you know. And I think that there is a lot of speculation and things like that where you’re heavily invested maybe in crypto or these certain stock that can get you into trouble. And I typically say that it’s not that there’s no room for that, it’s that the overwhelming majority of your investments should be super boring and bland and not exciting at all. And typically the more exciting that the investments are, the worse it is for you, the investor. Keep that in mind as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, I would argue — and you probably see this with clients and our planning team does as well — I’m not sure there’s a harder time than right now to trust the market over a long period of time and stay the course. You know, you mentioned that a good long-term investing plan — I’ve heard you say before — should be as boring as watching paint dry, right?

Tim Baker: Mhmm.

Tim Ulbrich: And I have that head knowledge, like I agree with that and I suspect many of our listeners do as well, but pick up any news cycle for 24 hours, right? I mean, whether it’s — and I’m not saying any one of these alone, to your point, is necessarily a bad thing or that folks shouldn’t be doing them — but whether it’s news around crypto or NFTs or ESGs or think of what happened with GameStop and Robinhood and others, like and I think it really challenges like the philosophy and you really have to be disciplined in like tuning out the noise for long-term investing strategies. Now again, I want to highlight, I’m not saying any of those things doesn’t necessarily have value or doesn’t have a place in one’s plan, but if the vast majority of an investing plan should be boring and should be over a long period of time, we’re trusting the market, it’s hard right now. I mean, it’s hard. Are you feeling that pressure not only individually but I sense from clients you’re probably seeing some of that as well.

Tim Baker: I kind of don’t listen to it. I don’t really read much — I mean, I try to read into it just to have an understanding of what’s going on, but I guess for me, I don’t feel the pull like I used to back in the day. One, because it’s a very humbling experience, and sometimes my clients haven’t been humbled. But like I kind of equate this, Tim, to kind of go a little bit off topic here, it’s like have you ever been around someone that’s like, man, the world is going to heck, this generation, whatever. And I think back on like well, what did they say about like the hippie, like free love? I feel like it’s always — like they probably were saying that about the dot-coms when before that, so there’s probably always been things like that that have tempted people to kind of go awry. And maybe cryptocurrency is a thing that does ultimately shatter our traditional way of looking at money and investments and things like that. I don’t know. I mean, I think that it’s really too soon to tell on that. But yeah, I mean, I think so. I mean, I think it is tough. I think if you’ve been humbled enough, it can be a little bit easier to drown it out. But to me, I think of this as like singles and doubles, singles and doubles, to use the baseball analogy is that if you’re going up at every at-bat and you’re trying to hit the cover off the ball, you’re going to strike out a lot. And you might hit a few home runs, but we’re really looking at consistency. And if I know that there is this — the S&P 500 returns this, and it’s never been, we’ve never had a rolling 20-year period that’s been negative, even through the Great Depression, I’m going to bank on that unless told otherwise. So like, that can be hard for people to hear because they think of investments and they think sexy and exciting and things like that, but that’s not what I think a healthy investment plan makes. I think you want to keep the speculation low. And I’m not saying that that’s not — I still from time to time will go to a casino and play Blackjack or play poker. I still gamble just because I don’t do it as much as I did when I was younger, but just because I’m out and I’m with friends or I’m doing whatever. But if that’s the bulk of what your plan is to get to financial freedom, so to speak, I would caution you.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: And it could work. I mean, it could work. You could put all your proverbial eggs in the Amazon bucket and be completely OK, but you know, the way that people view Amazon — maybe not now but you know, 5-10 years ago, was very similar to how they viewed Sears back in the ‘70s, ‘80s, and ‘90s.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Tim Baker: And that company was this behemoth and they sold everything and would never go away. And then all of a sudden, it’s not a viable company anymore. So — and I can say this, I used to work for Sears back in the day, so I can say that not everything lasts. But I think that the U.S. stock market has been very predictable over the long run.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s a great example, Tim. We might be dating ourselves a little bit, but you think of — I can remember when it was the lesser known at the time Walmart and Amazon entering into the KMart and Sears world. It’s hard to even think of that in today’s day and age. I think your point about being humbled is a really interesting one. You know, we’re talking about common financial errors. So I’ll throw one out here. 2008, I was humbled by thinking I could pick individual stocks. Thankfully, I didn’t invest a whole lot of money. Circuit City, how did that work out? Right? So you know, I think your point about being humbled and again, there may be a portion of the portfolio where this makes sense for many folks, especially if they want to scratch that itch. The other thing you mentioned here, which I want to highlight we’re going to come back to next week is you mentioned fees. And we’re going to talk next week about how important it is to really understand the fees of your investment portfolio and really understand the impact that those fees can be having on your long-term returns and the importance of holding on to as much of your investment pie as possible. So stay tuned with us next week as we talk about fees. Tim, I want to transition into our sixth and final error, which is not using professional advice, not having a coach in your corner when it comes to the financial plan. And I think this is a good segue to what I just mentioned of this day and age, there’s a lot of noise. And so having somebody who’s keeping you accountable, who’s really reflecting back to you what you said were important and the goals, helping you look across the financial plan and really helping to direct you towards those end goals that you had articulated and to keep you on the path when human behavior may suggest that we want to go off the path from time to time. So obviously we’re biased, full disclaimer, we wholeheartedly believe in the value of a financial planner, otherwise we wouldn’t be doing it. So Tim, tell us why you think this is such an important part of the plan and why it’s perhaps a mistake if folks leave out a coach from their plan.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think if we look at it like our mission of empowering pharmacists to achieve financial freedom, I think we both agree that in a one-on-one engagement with a fiduciary, a fee-only planner, is the shortcut to that. And I think we’ve seen that a lot with our clients where we see kind of the before picture and the after picture, and those are typically because of I think that relationship that a planner has with a client and the way that is forcing them to think differently, right? So like I often joke that I’m a financial planner, but I need a financial planner because I need someone to — a third party to objectively look at our financial plan and say like, am I insane? Or are we nuts? Or are we on track? Right? So I like I know the technical piece of it, like I know what it is to be a CFP and what — just like you’re a pharmacist and you need to know the technical piece of it or a doctor, they’re still going to go to like other health providers to kind of provide that insight and those opinions. But so I think the third party is a big thing. I think the other thing that we don’t necessarily trade on that much is, you know, like for a lot of people, when’s the last time you actually sat down and talked about goals with yourself or like with a partner? So like, you know, I kind of equate this to like I’ve been in periods of my life, Tim, where you are so — I don’t want to say like zoned out but like you ever get into your car and you’re going to work, and it’s 6 o’clock in the morning or whenever you go into your work, and you drive that 30-minute commute, and then you get to work and you don’t even remember any of that drive. It’s just —

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right. Yep.

Tim Baker: You’re on like autopilot. I think that the danger of not utilizing a professional in some regard is that you get into that where you like wake up 10 years from now or 20 years from now and you’re like, what the heck did I actually do? Or like is this a wealthy life for me? And you’re not having those critical conversations with yourself or out loud, which I think can be so powerful. So where are we going? Are we sure that’s where we want to go? Is this insane? And having that kind of, again, objective third party to make sure that we’re outlining goals and we’re being held accountable to that. And then I think the other thing that like is really important is that guidance, is that knowledge, is that technical expertise with best interests in mind. So to me, like if you’re talking to a financial planner, the two things that I think need to be there and if they’re not I’m going the other way is are you a CFP? So unlike a PharmD or JD or MD, like this is a designation that there’s an ethics requirement, there’s an experience requirement, there’s an education requirement that most financial advisors don’t need to kind of do what they’re doing. So like the barrier to entry to become a financial planner is very low. So you want to make sure that the CFP designation is there. And I think the other thing is are you a fiduciary? Are you going to act in my best interests? Or can you put your interests, meaning the planner’s interests, ahead of mine? And what most people don’t know is that 95% of advisors out there are not fiduciaries. And typically if you know the names of those types of firms, they’re not fiduciaries, meaning that they can put their own client — put their own interests ahead of their client’s. So you know, I think that the technical expertise and that is, those are just table stakes. Like I think that that’s going to come with the territory. It’s really I think overlying the human element and to me, I think what we try to do from a planning perspective is make sure that we’re taking care of clients today, say in 2021, but we’re also taking care of clients in 10, 20, 30 years from now and their future self and really threading the needle between taking care of what’s going on today and then that future version of yourself. And I feel like if you don’t feel like that push and pull, if you’re always saving or if you’re always spending, that can lead to some problems. And I think that having that objective third party to kind of guide and hold you accountable, give you some tough love, give you some encouragement, give you some idea of where you’re at compared to peers, for example, I think that’s vitally important.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and Tim, what you said about the human element just really resonates with me and I think will with our community as well. I mean, I think we often may have a perception of financial planners or advisors, whether that’s from movies or books we’ve read or parents that have worked with an advisor, whatever it be, but we tend to think I think of more of that tactical type of moves that folks are making, right, whether that’s certain investing decisions and insurance decisions, maybe it’s Roth conversions, things like that, tax decisions, etc. All of those are important and to your point, that’s table stakes in terms of an expertise that they’re going to provide. You want that knowledge, experience, and expertise. But it’s the human element. I think so much of the value you’ve provided to Jess and I has been in the conversations that have been initiated and the constant revisiting of what are our goals? What did we say was important, and are we actually living the wealthy life that we said we wanted to live? And the answer to that is not always yes, but we need that compass that we’re moving towards and we need that reminder, we need some accountability, we need a coach to make sure as life is racing by that we’re ultimately stopping, pausing, and getting back on the direction that we said was so important. So for those that are listening to this, if that is resonating with you, we’d love to have an opportunity to talk with you to see if what we offer from a financial planning standpoint is a good fit for you. You can go to YFPPlanning.com, you can schedule a free discovery call. Again, YFPPlanning.com. Tim or I would love to have a chance to talk with you further. Tim, great stuff. We’ve covered six common financial errors, and as always, we appreciate the community listening in to this podcast. If you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the podcast, please do us a favor and leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show. That will help other pharmacists be able to find this show as well. Thank you so much for joining, and we look forward to this episode next week. Have a great rest of your day.

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YFP 203: New Book: FIRE Rx: The Pharmacist’s Guide to Financial Independence

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New Book: FIRE Rx: The Pharmacist’s Guide to Financial Independence

Dr. Jeff Keimer, author of the brand new book FIRE Rx: The Pharmacist’s Guide to Financial Independence, joins Tim Ulbrich on this week’s episode. If you’ve heard about the FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early) movement before, you know that this is a powerful strategy to build wealth and to put yourself in control of your financial future. Regardless of whether or not you have early retirement goals, achieving financial independence gives you options when it comes to how you spend your time and money. On this episode, Jeff talks about why he wrote FIRE Rx, his FIRE journey, how to calculate how much you need to retire, three reasons pharmacists should consider pursuing FIRE, and how FIRE can change your relationship with money.

About Today’s Guest

Jeff Keimer is a retail pharmacist practicing in Vermont. He began his career in pharmacy while still in high school back in 2005, and he graduated from Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences with his PharmD in 2011. Jeff is a frequent contributor to the Your Financial Pharmacist blog.

After jumping headfirst into the FIRE movement back in 2016, he and his wife were able to conquer their student loans, paying off over $105,000 in nineteen months. Since then, they have been able to set themselves on a course to be financially independent well before most people would even consider it a possibility.

Along the way, Jeff engrossed himself in all things personal finance and found that he has not only a passion for finance, but also of writing; and through that writing, it’s his sincere hope that he can serve his profession by helping enrich the financial lives of its members.

In addition to this book, you can find more of Jeff’s content on the Your Financial Pharmacist blog. You can connect with him on Facebook via the Your Financial Pharmacist Facebook group.

Summary

This week, Tim Ulbrich welcomes Jeff Keimer, PharmD to the show to discuss his new book, FIRE Rx: The Pharmacist’s Guide to Financial Independence. Jeff shares why he wrote the book, his FIRE journey, how to calculate how much you need to retire, three reasons pharmacists should consider pursuing FIRE, and how FIRE can change your relationship with money.

FIRE Rx: The Pharmacist’s Guide to Financial Independence is broken down into three parts: the why of FI and how it applies to pharmacists, how to achieve FIRE, and uncertainties surrounding FIRE. Tim and Jeff walk through each of these areas in their discussion. Jeff shares a number of reasons why pharmacists should consider pursuing FIRE, whether or not they intend to actually retire early, and explains how your relationship with money can be positively affected when seeking FIRE.

Jeff explains a practical method to creating a goal post for retirement, elaborating on the 4% rule and how to calculate how much you need to retire. Jeff and Tim close by tackling some of the greatest concerns when retiring early including health insurance and outliving your nest egg.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Jeff, welcome to the show.

Jeff Keimer: Great to be on. Thanks for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Hard to believe this is your first time on the podcast. You’ve written a number of great blog posts about FIRE, investing, one about your debt-free journey that we have featured on the YFP website, and we’ll certainly link to that in the show notes. But today, we’re going to be digging into your new book that is available to order called “FIRE Rx: The Pharmacist’s Guide to Financial Independence.” And I’ve been really excited about getting this book out. It’s been a process, it’s been a couple years in the making, and excited to get this into the hands of many pharmacists that I think will find great value from your writing. So before we get into the book, give us a little bit of background on your pharmacy career and what you’ve been doing as a pharmacist.

Jeff Keimer: So I started in pharmacy actually quite awhile ago. I was still in high school back in 2005 when I started working for if you remember Eckerd Drug before they got bought out by Rite Aid. I worked for Rite Aid all throughout college and then took a position with a company called Kinney Drugs up here in Vermont. It’s just a regional drug chain. And yeah, been working as a community pharmacist ever since.

Tim Ulbrich: Small world, Jeff. I interned for Eckerd Drug when I was a pharmacy studen. At the time coming back home in the summers in Buffalo, New York, we had Eckerd Drug and I worked with them before that buyout happened with Rite Aid. So good memory. I think we’re dating ourself a little bit, by the way, when we talk about Eckerd Drug and some students and others are listening like, what are you talking about? You know, for those that are listening and if you’ve been a part of the YFP Facebook group, you likely have seen Jeff’s name pop up who has been really active in that group in commenting, providing some great input and advice. And I think, Jeff, folks may be wondering, especially those that have interacted with you in that group and obviously see that you’re knowledgeable not only on this topic but other areas of personal finance, you know, how did you get interested in personal finance? Was this a topic that always was one that was of interest? Or did something happen out of necessity that brought you into this world and I guess rabbit hole when it comes to personal finance?

Jeff Keimer: So I think I’ve always had kind of an interest in finance in general, maybe not in the application of it if you run my Q&A and how I was in my early years as a pharmacist, I definitely did not act like I was really interested in personal finance or whatnot. But I’ve always taken an interest in finance in general, especially investing. Then once Alex, my wife and I, we started getting down this FIRE rabbit hole, I really got into a lot more, really got to understand a lot more of the concepts. It really played to a wealth of my interests, especially as you get later on down the ways and you’re figuring out different ways to be able to solve your financial issues or invest better, sometimes it can be kind of a game, which really appeals to me.

Tim Ulbrich: So was it you driving this forward? Was it Alex driving this forward? Was it both of you — pun intended — really that caught on fire with the FIRE concept? Tell me more about for the two of you in your personal journey how you guys really made this commitment towards financial independence and why that was a priority for you and your family.

Jeff Keimer: So I think starting off, like I mentioned before, I got out as a new practitioner, really was not good with money, kind of spent every dime in sight just on ridiculous things. I think I spent $5,000 in a year on craft beer or something. But she was really — she gave me the push because she came from a much different mindset than I did when it came to money and particularly saving and really kind of establishing that financial position of strength. You know, as time went on with our relationship, I had a really pretty bad balance sheet. And she did not. I kind of got the hint that I needed to really kind of move myself in that direction, kind of get my house in order and up to her standards first. That’s really where we started. The whole foray into FIRE came later, after we got married. That became kind of a journey I took the lead on, but she was supportive at first and then really kind of came on board and got really excited about it as time went on and we made progress towards it.

Tim Ulbrich: We’ve had a few pharmacists as guests on the podcast like Jason Long on Episode 104, Jared Wonders on Episode 111, who have shared their own FIRE journey. We also had Scott Rickens, author of “Playing with FIRE” on Episode 188. But with that being said, I don’t want to assume that all of our listeners are familiar with FIRE. I shared with you before we hit record, you know, often when I’m speaking with a group of pharmacists and I introduce the concept of FIRE, many folks I find have not necessarily heard of that term before but once I have a chance to explain a little bit more about what is financial independence all about, what is the FIRE movement or community all about, I can see there is certainly an interest that is piqued and folks that are interested in, hey, I want to learn more and see whether or not this is a path for my own personal financial journey. So before we dig more into the weeds on FIRE and the strategies you talk about in the book, give us the high-level definition or overview of what exactly is FIRE.

Jeff Keimer: Basically, FIRE is an acronym. It stands for Financial Independence Retire Early. And I think that the acronym really kind of is in some ways self-explanatory. But what it actually is in practice is that you reach a stage in your personal finance journey where you reach financial independence, meaning the money that’s — your money is basically generating for you, not the money that you’re having to work for. But the money that’s being given to you in the form of dividends, capital gains, things from investments or income from rental properties or a business that you own that you’re no longer having to really work the day-to-day, from basically that is covering all of your living expenses that you have in a year. So you basically, you don’t have to work for money anymore, which then leads people into the retire early concept, in which case they may decide to totally stop working for money. Then that can be far ahead of what people normally consider to be retirement at say 65. You have some people in the space inspires really kind of a large community now that’s really cropped up over the years. You have some of the more famous names in the space. First one I was introduced to was a guy named Pete Adeney, who goes from — he goes by the name Mr. Money Mustache on his blog. And he retired in his 30s. So you know, when most people kind of hear that for the first time — and I know when I heard that for the first time, that’s when I got hooked because I was like, who is this guy? Like how do you do this? This sounds really ridiculous.

Tim Ulbrich: Tell me more.

Jeff Keimer: Tell me more about how you get to a point where you can call it quits in 10 years. But you know, the interesting thing about FIRE is like you can do whatever you want. It’s really retire early is an option. Financial independence is really what I think most of the movement has kind of squared itself around because then you have the option to do the retire early if you want or you can do something else.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think that right there, right, the option to stop trading time for money — and I’m with you, Jeff. As I heard about the movement, learned a little bit more, certainly don’t claim to be an expert myself , and like we’ll talk about here shortly, there’s a variety of options and paths that one can take, certainly not a only-one-route to do FIRE. But FI resonates with me as a goal that all of us should be considering, you know, and what that means for us. It may be something different depending on our personal situation, our income, our expenses, where we live, all of those things. RE maybe, maybe not. You know, I think there’s a lot of things that would go in that direction that would help someone make that decision. But many pharmacists invested a lot of time and money to get their degree, many pharmacists love the work that they’re doing, and so they may not have that goal of RE. Or perhaps it might not be that they have a goal of retiring early but something life throws at them requires them to pivot away from their work income, and they’ve put themselves in a position towards FI to be able to make that adjustment. So we’re going to dig into even more of that, but I want to make sure our listeners, you know, as we have this conversation, don’t necessarily hear us talking about FIRE and are making an automatic assumption that every pharmacist needs to aspire to retire in their early or mid-30s but rather we’ll talk about some of the tenets and principles of FI and of course that RE is something that some may choose and many others perhaps not. So being passionate about FIRE and financial independence for your own personal journey is one thing. Deciding to invest the time to write a book is another thing. And you know and I know that there’s a significant amount of time and effort that can go into this. So why, Jeff, did you feel the need, besides me hounding you a little bit of hey, I think this would be a great topic for pharmacists and would love to see us have more information in this area, why did you feel like it was necessary to invest the time to write a book that would help pharmacists better understand this path towards FIRE?

Jeff Keimer: Yeah, I never thought about writing the book until you asked me. You said, “Hey, would you like to” — I think we were originally starting and thinking about maybe a short audiobook or something like that. Then it morphed into more of a full form book. And initially, I’ve got to be honest, you know, you said, “Would you like to write a book?” I thought, I think that’s kind of a cool thing to do. I’d like to — maybe that would be a fun little thing to be able to say, “Oh yeah, I wrote a book.” But you know, as time goes on, that can kind of get you in the door doing something, but you have to kind of have a reason for why you actually want to beat something, and especially with writing a book, I mean, that’s the longest thing I’ve ever written. You’ve got to have something in the background. And I was thinking to myself, really I mean, as I was writing the book and kind of thinking about in all the writings that I’d done for the site as well, why I do this. And I think that what it boils down to is different people have different ways that they want to serve their profession in general. And I looked at this as like, people try to play more to their interests in how they want to do that, if they want to do that at all. And to be honest, on the clinical side of things, wasn’t — never really been a huge interest of mine. I really enjoy the role that I play in the profession as community pharmacist, being able to talk with people, help them through their problems and get better outcomes that way. But you know, some of the more clinical-minded or even legislative-minded things that you get into, haven’t really sparked too much of an interest in mine. But finance does. And I think that finance really is a — it represents an interesting problem that needs to be solved for our profession, particularly as I see it kind of going forward because as a profession, I mean, we do need a lot. We need to do a lot, you know, for our profession moving forward to be able to direct it in the ways that I think most pharmacists would like to see it. But financial burdens placed particularly on new graduates who, in my mind, are in a really good spot to be able to try and affect change in our profession, really can be a major hindrance to things actually moving forward. What I see with — through my writing is you know what, if I can help any of these people get to a point where finance is really not such a burden on their shoulders, they might be able to actually get out from the behind the bench and do things that might be more beneficial to our profession on the legislative end, clinical ends, or even on an entrepreneurial end because we really do need — in our profession, we do need to explore different avenues for our services as pharmacists to really evolve our profession as time goes on. And unfortunately, a lot of times when — I’m sure you’re an entrepreneur yourself — the beginning stages of a lot of ventures, you don’t make a lot. It can be very difficult financially. And it’s one thing to kind of come at that sort of a thing coming out of high school or coming out of college with minimal debt, it’s a whole different thing coming out of college —

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Jeff Keimer: And you have $100,000 maybe plus of student loans. And your minimum payment is similar to a mortgage without actually having a house. That, to me, like if you can really kind of help fix that part of the problem, I think that there’s a better chance — not a guarantee, but a better chance that our profession will be able to do the things that it needs to do without as much of the weight of the financial burdens that we have already.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and Jeff, I shared this with you when I read the first draft. What would that have been? Back in probably late fall of 2019. I think you’ve really done an incredible job of taking a topic that can feel overwhelming, especially when you get into some of the weeds on investing options, considerations, you know, and so forth and really did a nice job of breaking that down in a way that was easy to understand, it’s very conversational — for those that like reading blog posts and other things, I think you wrote it an a way that is not intimidating. It’s easy to follow. And it gives people the space to explore this topic and apply it to their own personal situation. And that is something I love because we know that when it comes to putting a financial plan together, whether you’re working with a financial planner or you’re doing it yourself, everyone’s plan is inherently unique to your own personal situation, to your own goals, to your family situation, to where you live, to all of these other factors, whether you have debt and how much, and things you’re trying to aspire to do. And I feel like you really gave the space for folks to be able to make some decisions and really just understand the options, the pathways, spark some interest in what this is all about, and then hopefully, they can take that information and begin to apply it to their personal situation where it makes sense. So as far as I know, this is the first FIRE book specifically as it relates to pharmacy professionals — if someone else wrote one that we don’t know about, they can tell me that I’m wrong on that — and I really believe the book is full of valuable information that lays really a strong foundation for pharmacists that are interested in learning about FIRE and how they can set out on the path to achieve it. In the book, you go into detail about paths to FIRE, withdrawal rates, savings rates, budgeting, debt repayment, investing, portfolio considerations, and the list goes on and we’ll talk about some of those in more detail. And one of the highlights for me is we sent this book out to some pharmacists in the YFP community before it was available to order, and the feedback we received was really amazing. Cory Jenks, who we had on in Episode 196 said, “This book takes the hours and hours of reading and self-education and condenses it to a simple, easy-to-read book that has something for anyone along the journey to FI.” And I would certainly agree with what Cory said there. So let’s dig into the book a little bit further. You wrote the book “FIRE Rx: The Pharmacist’s Guide to Financial Independence,” and you broke it up into three parts: Part 1: The Why of FI and How it Applies to Pharmacists, Part 2: How to Achieve FIRE, and Part 3: Uncertainties Surrounding FIRE. So in Part 1, the Why of FI and How it Applies to Pharmacists, talk us through the three reasons that you think pharmacists should at least consider pursuing financial independence.

Jeff Keimer: The three reasons I really tried to lay out there is first and foremost, it’s defensive. Second, it’s doable. And then third, as I kind of got into on my little soapbox over there, it’s good for the profession I think. So going to that first point, defense, where I don’t think that there’s really a whole lot of pharmacists out there in the profession that look at the state of things right now and think, oh, the gravy train is going to keep going and whatnot. You know, you hear stories every day about — you see a lot of them on the Facebook group too, posting about how tough the job market is, people are going in and getting the offers that they’re finding are really — they’re scary. I mean, they’re like a fraction of what I started at 10 years ago. There’s a lot of pressure in the marketplace right now in terms of pharmacists’ salaries and then also again, on the student debt side, that side keeps going up. Defensively, pursuing financial independence in particular at a really just basic level, I mean, you don’t even need to achieve financial independence to be able to get benefits from the techniques and the things that you do in the pursuit of it anyway.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Jeff Keimer: Because what it basically boils down to is just — I mean, it’s just good financial hygiene. So you’re getting rid of debt, you’re de-risking your whole financial situation, and really kind of building yourself up into a position of strength where you can really kind of take whatever life throws at you. Now, that could just be what a lot of us — most people kind of experience, you could just have things come up in your personal life, say the kid needs to go into the hospital or you need to go in the hospital, some kind of financial hardship there that you could absorb. Or it could be something more in the lines of the profession. So I remember last year, remember reading one day, one of the major big box stores laid off about 1,000 pharmacists or something like that. That’s a major thing that goes on. And it’s a possibility. And I think for many, many years, our profession really didn’t — we didn’t really have to think about that. I know when I first went into pharmacy school, something like that really was not on the radar or really in anybody’s mind, especially when — we called them fifth years because I went through a six-year program, but you know, the P3 students, second semester, you saw a lot of new cars in the parking lot because people were getting five-figure sign-on bonuses.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep. I remember that.

Jeff Keimer: But I mean, yeah, it basically — it boils down to for defense, it’s a good idea to really even just kind of get into this anyway because as a profession, I think every single pharmacist really needs to be thinking or have in the back of my mind, hey, it might be a possibility that I’m not going to be making more in the future, which is kind of a weird concept if you want to stay in the profession. And I would imagine most pharmacists do want to stay in the profession because we went to school for a reason, and we wanted to be pharmacists for a reason. The second thing after going that doom-and-gloom section, that it’s doable. I think currently, a lot of pharmacists, the doom-and-gloom scenario, while it’s certainly difficult in a lot of markets, that’s not the same — or not saying that every market is this kind of situation where it’s really difficult. So for a lot of pharmacists, particularly ones that are practicing now, and especially if you’re still making that good paycheck, I think financial independence is perfectly doable. You have a strong income to be able to drive it towards financial goals. It does take a lot of discipline, takes some knowledge, but you can do it relatively easily compared to a lot of your peers that might have graduated, people like let’s say you went to high school with. They might have graduated in a different field. So I think that it’s, as a pharmacist, you know, even though we kind of get down on it, most of us still do make very good money compared to what a lot of people, especially straight out of college, would be making. And then the last bit, again, I think it’s good for the profession. You know, if you go down this path and even if you get close to financial independence, you don’t even need to get to full financial independence, but even getting there close, we can remove some of the risk to your career if you need to do something to be that, you really want to get out of a situation that you’re in, maybe you did start working retail after college but you really didn’t want to do that from the beginning, which it’s very much like a thing where if you’re in a position that you don’t necessarily — if you didn’t want to be there in the first place, it could be a bad fit and could be difficult for you for a long term. So if you wanted to contemplate a switch, sometimes having that — being in a position of financial strength can be very beneficial to you and really kind of remove a lot of the risks surrounding moves there. Also, I mean, if you wanted to pursue entrepreneurial work, let’s say start a consulting business or something like that where it’s not clear that you’re going to be making the kind of salary that you were making as a dispensing pharmacist from Day 1, and you probably won’t. But if you’re in a position of financial strength, you can tackle that challenge far easier and far more responsibly I would say than someone who doesn’t have that position of financial strength.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I agree with all of those, Jeff. And the one that resonates with me — and I mentioned this to you as you were writing is that last one. I really — I’m bullish on the opportunities we have. I’m an optimist by nature, but in terms of where we can go as a profession, but I also recognize that $175,000 of debt and dependence on a six-figure income with that type of debt is really golden handcuffs to folks taking risks. And I think that is risk both internally, you know, I think folks, if you’re really saddled with debt or don’t necessarily have a good financial foundation or position, you’re probably not likely within your job to propose new ideas or strategies or take some risks or push back where needed, let alone look for other opportunities that may be out there that are a better fit for you or that also could help us advance as a profession. So I believe firmly a big part of why we do what we do at YFP is if we can help offload some of the financial burden of one’s individual situation, you know, what does that mean for their career as a pharmacist? Or what does that mean for other things that they may want to pursue and may want to do? The other thing, Jeff, I like in Part 1 that you talk about is an FI mindset. And you know, my question here is what part does mindset play in pursuing FIRE? And what are your core ideas on how one can establish an FI mindset or perhaps recalibrate the current mindset that they have if it’s not in line with that?

Jeff Keimer: The concept I like to get through on the FI mindset part is really, when you decide to go for financial independence, you really have to fundamentally change your relationship with money. And what I mean by that is that instead of viewing the money that you bring in simply as the stuff that you’d pay for goods and services with, you really need to think of money in terms of time. There’s a great book, it was written many years ago by a lady, Vicki Robin and her husband, they equated money to a concept they called life energy. And basically, it was when you’re spending money on things, let’s say you’re buying a pair of jeans or you’re buying the latte or whatever, you’re giving money for those things. But in reality, if you’re having to work for that money, what it is is that you’re exchanging the time value of your work, your life energy, for whatever that thing is. Now, most of the time, like the small purchases here and there, that’s really — they can add up, but it can be immaterial in the long run. But for some of the big things like let’s say you want to buy that brand new $50,000 car, you take out a car loan, you do that stuff, what you’re doing is you are committing a lot of your life energy to buying that car. Like it’s not a just oh, I can get this. It’s like no, no, no. You are committing your life to servicing this debt for whatever that you’re spending the money on. Now, the change that gets made is when you have a look at how money, particularly when you start investing it, can beget more money. Then it’s like, alright, so I’m going to have this money and then I can save that money and then it can then buy me time. It can buy my life energy back, which I think is — that’s really the cornerstone of the FI mindset that you need to have is that you’re essentially, instead of expending your life energy, your time, for things and stuff, you’re really just kind of buying back into yourself and making your — getting yourself time back that you wouldn’t otherwise have. Once you really kind of understand that, really kind of engrain that — I mean, I’ll tell you, it is kind of an addictive concept because you end up finding yourself saving money and looking for ways to save money and do things that you ordinarily wouldn’t do because you kind of feel like, I’m doing this, this is, you think of it as miniscule, it’s like, oh, that thing’s going to get me 15 more minutes back of my time or something like that. You know, that’s kind of silly. But it kind of explains the point a little bit.

Tim Ulbrich: I think too, Jeff, you know, sometimes when folks hear that, they may think, oh my goodness, like the frugality of that and I’m scraping for pennies, but I think what happens, at least what happens for me when you talk about that concept of the connection between time and money is that you start to change how you value certain things. So again, I’m speaking for myself, but I think this may be true with others as well. If you’re going to make an investment in an experience, you’re going to make an investment in something else versus an investment in something that maybe doesn’t mean as much to you — and Ramit Sethi talks about this idea in the book “I Will Teach You to Be Rich” of like find the things that like have meaning and value to you, and figure out how you’re going to invest and prioritize in those and find the things that you don’t care about and stop spending money on them. And you know, I think that that has been really an important thing when I think about mindset — and here, we’re talking about mindset around FI — is like it really helps begin you to shape and be more I think self-aware of when you’re spending money, you’re not just making that transaction but you’re starting to think a little bit about like what value do I get or do I not get from this transaction? And is it worth it or not based on the time? And sometimes the answer is yes, and sometimes the answer is no. And I think it just helps grow that awareness and it allows us to pause, stop, think about things and really evaluate it in a little bit more detail. Now, Part 2 of the book is really the meat and potatoes. And you did an awesome job in this section, How to Achieve FIRE, and we’re just going to scratch the surface here with a couple things. But one of the things you talk about in Part 2 is you dive into safe withdrawal and the 4% Rule, which you also talked about on the recent blog post on the YFP website titled “How Much You Need to Hang Up Your Coat,” all about the 4% Rule, and we’ll link to that in the show notes. So just give us a high-level overview of what the 4% Rule is and why that is significant as folks may be getting to think about this question of how much I need.

Jeff Keimer: So in a nutshell, the 4% Rule refers to a tool in financial planning to be able to judge when a traditional let’s say traditional portfolio of stocks and bonds can really fund your expenses in perpetuity. So where it comes from, it comes from a study done by the financial planner William Bengen back in the ‘90s. And what he found was that in looking at retirement cohorts from many, many years in the past, he found that the absolute lowest that a retiree could safely withdraw from their portfolio and not run out of money — and his study was over the course of 30-50 years, depending on which study you want to look at. But in a nutshell, basically it’s he said 4% was the lowest, the worst case scenario that if you retired and then you took out 4% of your portfolio Year 1, and then Year 2 added the inflation according to Consumer Price Index to that initial 4%, so on, so on as the years go on, you keep up with inflation, you wouldn’t run out of money. And 4% was that worst-case scenario. Now, it sounds like a little wonky, but what ends up happening is you can take that 4% figure and take the inverse of it, which is 25.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Jeff Keimer: And then once your investment portfolio reaches 25 times your annual expenses, you can — in theory, I would say — declare yourself to be financially independent because there’s a strong probability that in the future, you are not going to run out of money should you just decide to draw down on your portfolio like this. The really powerful thing about the 4% Rule and the whole concept of a safe withdrawal rate is not really in the technical details behind it but it’s giving you a goalpost that you can work towards.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Jeff Keimer: I remember it was kind of a seminal moment like in my FI journey that when I read Mr. Money Mustache’s post, it was like “Shockingly Simple Math to Early Retirement,” something like that. But it laid that out, and I said to myself, oh, OK, so my retirement number, how much I need is not just this totally nebulous concept where somebody’s like, ‘Well you might need like $5-10 million. We don’t really know. You just need a boatload of money.’

Tim Ulbrich: Plus or minus $3 million.

Jeff Keimer: Yeah, just keep saving and once you get to 65, we’ll figure it out from there.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Jeff Keimer: But this actually gave me something more concrete to work with and say, ‘OK, alright, that’s a goal. And I can achieve that.’ But the other interesting thing too compared to a lot of the traditional financial planning advice is that you tend to see in some of the guidelines out there for how much you need to retire, as it’s a multiple of your income, which many people would argue with me about this, but your income is I think less in your control than you really think it is. There are a lot of forces way outside your control that affect this thing, be it market forces, so pharmacists are seeing that firsthand with supply and demand of licensed professionals. But it could just be some exogenous event in the market that, you know what, you lose your job. Sorry. Or you had a good idea, but now there aren’t too many customers for your idea anymore. A lot of things can happen with your income that are outside of your control. However, with the 4% Rule, it frames the question of how much you need to retire and how much you need for financial independence in terms of your expenses. Now, some of these may be a little bit outside your control, but you have way more control, at least in my view, of how much you spend versus how much you bring in. So I think it’s much more powerful — it’s extremely powerful in the regard that it really takes the whole notion of your financial destiny, your financial independence, out of the hands of whatever’s going on externally in the market and putting it much more in your hands, giving you much more influence over that equation.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great stuff, Jeff. And I like how you described that calculation towards the FI number as a goalpost, right? It’s a starting point and I think so often, we talk about retirement as I hope I can retire. I wish I can retire. Maybe I can retire at this age. And I think really starting to dig into some of the numbers and taking more control and ownership of what that might look like of your financial plan, rather than being reactive. And as I mentioned in Part 2, this is just one of the many concepts you talk about. You also talk about in Chapter 5, your savings rate, in Chapter 6, you go into a FIRE approach to debt, in Chapter 7, you talk in much more detail about FIRE investing, in 8, investing efficiently and then and finally in 9, which is a question folks probably have often is it’s great if I save it and now I need to pull it out, so how do I, as you say in Chapter 9 titled “Jail Break Your Stash,” so what’s the strategy of actually withdrawing those funds when you need it, which I think is a question for many pharmacists if they’re familiar with more traditional tax-advantaged retirement accounts and they think of things like age 59.5 or greater, well what’s the strategy if there’s early retirement? So certainly covered in much more detail in the book. Jeff, I want to wrap up here with a question about what you address in Part 3 of the book, which is some of the uncertainties surrounding FIRE. And I think is one that folks hearing this for the first time might begin to think of all the objections to why early retirement may not be a good idea. And this might be, well what about health insurance? What about other things where I’m dependent upon my income to be able to have some of those types of things? So there are considerations, potential drawbacks. What are some of the big uncertainties that you see related to FIRE that folks should be aware of?

Jeff Keimer: So I think the big one that a lot of people think of right off the bat has to do with health insurance, which to be honest, I don’t think it’s as big of an issue or will be as big of an issue as people think because I mean, health insurance is something that you can — it’s going to cost more in most regards. Now, there are some tricks that you can get around it. You can take a look into other forms of health coverage like Health Ministries or some people decide to work part-time for a company that offers health insurance benefits in retirement. Or they just, they don’t stop working, they just kind of work for the health insurance benefit. But I think, I mean, that boils down to you’re probably going to have to pay for it. That I think is the thing that comes top-of-mind for a lot of people, especially when you say, ‘Hey, you’re going to retire at 40 years old,’ and most people, like a major consideration is like, ‘Well, I’m not retiring until I get Medicare.’ It can be less of a burden than people think, but I mean, it’s still definitely out there. The other thing too that’s kind of an uncertainty is outliving your assets too, which kind of goes back a little bit to that 4% Rule, and that’s why when we were talking earlier about it, you said it’s a goalpost. But it’s also just kind of a guideline. Like it’s also not set in stone that it’s going to happen. I mean, it’s still very much a concern that you are going to outlive your money. And there are certainly things that you could do to address that, which we talk about in the book, not the least of which, I mean, surprise, kind of along the same lines as health insurance, is just save a little bit more and give yourself a buffer. The other thing — and I think that the really, probably one of the most important in terms of uncertainties to FIRE is let’s say you do want to consider retiring early. What do you do from there? That’s the major question that, you know, if you’re going to be looking at this thing, it’s the thing that you should be thinking about throughout the whole journey.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Jeff Keimer: And you know what? I mean, the good news is you don’t need to figure it out before you start. And honestly, I think it’s a stupid exercise to even try to do something like that because this is not going to be — pursuing financial independence or the early retirement, it’s not something that you’re going to be able to say, ‘Alright, I’m going to start doing this and then two years from now, we’re going to be there. And my life two years from now is probably going to look very similar to the way it does now.’ I would say when people go after this thing aggressively, 10-15 years might be more realistic for that. When we started ours, that’s kind of the timeframe we were looking at for it. But even at those kind of time frames, I mean, you don’t know what your life is going to look like 10-15 years from now. You really don’t. My son was born six months ago. And being a new parent, I don’t — I didn’t know ahead of time really what that’s going to look like. I had maybe some idea of what that looks like, but I didn’t understand what it was going to look like. So I think that as you’re making these plans for the future, I mean, it’s something to think about. Like what do you want your life to look like after FI? How or is pharmacy going to fit into that life after FI? For some people — you know, I know for Jason Long when you had him on, it really didn’t. But I think for a lot of other people that are in the profession, it will in some shape or fashion, whether that’s even something as simple as you know what, I want to work per diem for the pharmacy or the hospital or something like that. Or it could be you know what, I have reached financial independence and one of my goals for this was to do more outreach work for the profession, and I’m going to do that. These are the things to think about during the journey because, I mean, I definitely think it’s worth it to consider. And that I would say, most of the other problems that people kind of throw around — I like this term, it gets thrown around actually in the cryptocurrency communities a lot, it’s called FUD. It’s an acronym. It stands for Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. And a lot of the FUD surrounding FIRE really, I mean, it’s all math. Health insurance, saving for college in the future, even like long-term care, all of these are math problems that you can solve.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Jeff Keimer: But the big uncertainty, but it’s kind of a good uncertainty is like, well, now that you have all this time, what do you want to do with it? And how do you want to construct your life after this? That’s really the big thing I think a lot of people need to think about too as they’re going on with the journey in terms of any kind of uncertainty surrounding the FIRE movement.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great stuff, Jeff. And I love how you wrap up the book when you say, “When I think about the whole concept of FIRE, I don’t really see it as a mad race to the end of work to live a life of leisure. I see it as being a tool that can help people live their best lives. Nothing more, nothing less. And what you’ll get out of it is up to you.” So Jeff, great work. We really have just scratched the surface on the book “FIRE Rx: The Pharmacist’s Guide to Financial Independence.” Congratulations on your efforts. I think it’s going to have a significant impact on many pharmacists out there. Appreciate you taking the time and the effort to put the book together and looking forward to getting it into others’ hands. So Jeff, again, thanks for the time coming on today and your efforts in putting together the book.

Jeff Keimer: Thanks for having me on.

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YFP 201: How and Why Trey Made the Transition from a Six-Figure to Resident Salary

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How and Why Trey Made the Transition from a Six-Figure to Resident Salary

On this episode, Tim Ulbrich talks with Trey Lowery about his experiences taking a non-traditional path towards residency training. They discuss why Trey decided to go back to complete residency training, how he and his wife were able to make the transition from a six-figure to a resident salary, and financial tips for those going back to do residency or making a job transition.

About Today’s Guest

Trey Lowery is a clinical outpatient pharmacist at the Iowa City VA Health Care System. He attended pharmacy school at Mercer University College of Pharmacy in Atlanta, Georgia and moved to Iowa City, Iowa with his wife, who attends graduate school at the University of Iowa. He began his pharmacy career as a staff pharmacist for Hy-Vee Pharmacy following graduation in 2018. He then matched to the Iowa City VA’s PGY1 pharmacy residency program in 2019 and continued there in his current position upon completion. In the few years following pharmacy school graduation, Trey experienced the transition from student to the seemingly never-ending job search, to full-time salaried pharmacist, to resident, and back to pharmacist salary again. He is excited to share his experiences with other pharmacists in hopes it will encourage them to not allow potential decreases in pay to prevent them from pursuing their dream job as a pharmacist.

how to Summary

On this episode, Tim Ulbrich welcomes Trey Lowery to the show to discuss his experiences with his non-traditional plan towards residency and the many adjustments that came along with it. Trey shares some of the challenges he and his wife worked through along his journey to residency and how both compromise and financial savvy helped them through the transition.

Some of the best tips and advice that Trey shares in this episode include making sure that you have a solid budget and financial plan ahead of time. Trey shares his long history with budgeting and how he views it as a tool for success rather than something limiting. Tim and Trey go over Trey’s very practical advice on budgeting during residency, including a formula for building your residency budget even when you are not sure of your salary and specifics.

Additional advice includes building your emergency fund up to be able to fund at least 3-6 months of expenses. The reasoning for this is simple, with a 6-figure salary, unexpected expenses and events are much easier to manage, but with a resident salary, those same unexpected expenses and events can be a bigger problem.

Trey closes with a little motivational push and encourages anyone who is looking to take a non-traditional path to residency to do so.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Trey, welcome to the show.

Trey Lowery: Thanks, Tim. Appreciate you having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Appreciate you taking time to come onto the podcast and really share your story and pearls of wisdom for transitioning from a student pharmacist to a pharmacist with a six-figure income to a resident salary and what that meant for you, for your personal situation, and how you were able to financially plan for that transition. And so let’s start with your pharmacy background and give our listeners a little bit more of a picture of where you went to pharmacy school, when did you graduate, and then the route that you took through residency to your current role.

Trey Lowery: Sure thing. So I grew up in the state of Georgia and then went to pharmacy school at Mercer University College of Pharmacy, which is in Atlanta. I then got married after school and my wife decided she wanted to pursue a PhD program. And she chose to do so at the University of Iowa, so then we made the transition and moved from Georgia halfway across the country to the great state of Iowa. And when I got here, I didn’t really have many connections, I wasn’t licensed yet, so I had to figure out how to transition into passing all the different licensing exams and attempting to find a job without a license and without any knowledge of anyone in the area. So thankfully, I was able to do so after a couple of months. And I ended up working at Hyvee pharmacy. It was about an hour away from where I lived, so the job search was certainly expanded. And then after about 9-10 months of working at Hyvee, I applied to the several different residency programs and ended up matching at the Iowa City VA, where I completed my PGY1 and then after finishing it, I was happy to continue on in my current position as a clinical outpatient pharmacist there at the Iowa City VA as well.

Tim Ulbrich: And I’m excited to share your story with others as I suspect there may be many pharmacists out there listening that for whatever reason, you know, didn’t complete residency training right out of school, which may have been Plan A for them in their mind or perhaps they discovered later on that they wanted to do residency training. And that could either be a financial decision, that could be a family situation, a move that’s going on, it could be a match situation, lots of reasons why folks may not necessarily complete residency right out of school. But there may be an interest to go back and complete a later program at a later time. And I think one of the common barriers is wow, this is a big financial change to be considering, right? Going from student income to finally you’ve got that pharmacist six-figure income and then taking a step back at least financially in terms of that resident income. And so we’re going to dig into that in more detail here in a little bit, but I want to give our listeners more perspective on your Plan A and then obviously your work that you ended up doing at Hyvee. But my understanding is your goal was if possible to do residency right after your P4 year and because of the timing, because of the move, you weren’t able to enter Phase 1 of the match, didn’t yet know where you were going to be because of location with your wife’s PhD programs and the options and then at that point were able to move into Phase 2 — for all that have been through this process know how difficult Phase 2 of the match can be in terms of the number of applicants that are out there relative to the position. So talk to us through about that experience. How challenging was that in terms of that being up in the air, unknown, as well as having to make that decision that this is Plan A but I’m going to put that on the back burner because of this move. And if it works out in Phase 2, great. If not, then you’ll pursue something else.

Trey Lowery: Sure, I think that’s one of the interesting parts of my story is that I went into pharmacy school thinking I didn’t want to do a residency because I had worked originally as an intern and as a technician for a company called Kroger, which is very similar to Hyvee, back in Georgia. And I thought that that was the path I wanted to do. I was thinking retail pharmacy, maybe some type of independent or ownership later on. But it wasn’t really until my fourth year rotations when I actually got experience in the clinical and hospital side of pharmacy that I really decided, you know what? I actually really like the idea of the work that I’m doing here, so much so that it was basically around September when I decided OK, I definitely want to pursue a residency. But then the applications were due in December. So that was also part of the speeding up process that I had at the time. So I did what I could in those couple of months, tried to get some research experience, doing some more experience in the clinical areas and bolster my CV as much as I could. But yeah, the unknown of having to wait for Phase 2 was certainly challenging I suppose would be the word. I mean, we didn’t know where we were going to move, we didn’t know how we were going to financially survive after the move because if I didn’t match, then I wouldn’t have a job already lined up in the area. So it was certainly a challenging time. And it was one of those things to where we basically had to decide which of our careers would help the other one, sort of. So my wife was willing to take a year off if that meant that I could pursue a PGY1 anywhere in the country. But ultimately, we decided to go with — stick with the plan of her going ahead and going into school because it was going to take significantly longer and then my ability as a pharmacist to find a job would likely be a little bit easier than hers just coming out of undergrad.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I’m glad, Trey, that you guys were able to work through that and come to that decision as a family because obviously now you guys are in a great position at the Iowa City VA, your wife’s continuing on in her PhD degree, so it all worked out, but I’m sure that was incredibly stressful in the moment as you guys were evaluating the options that were in front of you. And so you make this move, you obviously get into Phase 2, limited options, lots of applicants, and ultimately weren’t able to land a position in Phase 2. So now you’re at the point of getting a job, right? So you land a position with Hyvee pharmacy, and my question here is once you were in that role, obviously I’m sure in the back of your mind you’re still thinking about residency as a path that you may be interested in, some of your career goals that you identified here in the fourth year that were of interest to you, but you’re making a good income. And I think this can be a hard thing to really objectively say, “I want to go back and pursue this training pathway,” knowing that it’s going to reduce my income by a half, certainly probably even more than that for some positions. And so talk to us about that decision-making process, you know, how you were able to really objectively evaluate, you know what, this path of residency is best for me, even if it means taking a pay cut to go back and do that.

Trey Lowery: Well, for me, Tim, it really stemmed from thinking about what my long-term career goals were as well as my wife’s — you know, obviously that was certainly a sacrifice for both of us in doing that. So when I got to thinking about what I wanted to do over the course of my career for the next 40+ years, I really just didn’t think that my current position was something that I was comfortable with thinking about in the long term. I really thought that I wanted to get more involved in the actual act of patient care, being able to handle some of the decisions instead of being more reactive by when they just come to the pharmacy and drop off prescriptions, it’s hard to really make a lot of interventions in that setting. And depending on when my wife finishes her PhD, we don’t exactly know what’s going to happen there. So it may involve another move, it probably — it will likely involve another job search. And I figured that if I could do anything to bolster my ability to be more marketable in that area by having residency training, then I’d also improve my chances of finding a job in the future and then hopefully being able to land something that I really enjoy like I have right now.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, and good call on the VA. You know, obviously we have many, many VA pharmacists that listen to this show that we work with as clients. And we know how much they enjoy the VA from a scope of practice, from obviously the quality of employment, the benefits, but also from the ability to transition. You know, one of the benefits of the VAs, if you guys have to pick up and move across the country, if you’re able to locate with another VA, you know, that minimizes a lot of the licensure concerns and other things of transferring your practice. So what a great opportunity that you have there. What about the experiences at Hyvee? You know, one of the things I’ve noticed as a residency program director and previous experiences is I have found that those that have some work experience, so graduate from pharmacy school, go out and work for a year or two years, however long that be, and then come back and do residency, seem to be a little bit better prepared to take on the demands, the challenges, the rigor of residency. Are there specific experiences that you had at Hyvee or skills that you obtained through that year that you felt like really benefited you during the residency year?

Trey Lowery: Yeah, and I think that’s an important point for those seeking to go back to do residency is using that to your advantage rather than saying, you know, I’m actually multiple years out of school, I’m well into one specific area, how can I go into a residency program that’s going to require well-rounded, maybe things that I haven’t done before? But I think like you mentioned that that is actually something to use to your advantage because one thing you’ll have over the other candidates that are applying that are still in school is that you’ve actually made that transition into I am an independent practitioner, I have ownership over my practice, when I scan the barcode to verify my prescription, that’s the last check. It’s completely up to my abilities as to whether or not the patient is getting the right thing, and I’m now the one responsible. So I think between that, you also gain some supervisory experience because you’ll actually have technicians that it will be just you in the pharmacy, you have to do a little bit of kind of management of time and management of people in that area. And then for me, it was just kind of the relationships that I really was able to develop with my patients. You know, actually seeing that your work is having an impact on them really makes you want to take more ownership of that. And so then going back into residency, I’d already seen the effects that I could have as a pharmacist on my patients. And so I think that made me care about it a little bit more knowing the sacrifices that I was making to be there.

Tim Ulbrich: Trey, one of the things I think about besides the financial transition, which we’ll get to in more detail here in a few moments, you know, just having a year I guess off — not necessarily off, you obviously were practicing, using skills, but you know, it’s a different pace from happy clinical rotations where you’re being evaluated and you’re expected to do so many interventions and have a certain autonomy of practice. So being, having that transitionary year and even just schedule differences, you know, I think about the pace typically of a residency probably were in more of a normal, not going to say not stressful, but normal schedule, so you finally graduate from school, you get to somewhat of a normal scheduled routine, and then you say, “You know what, I’m going to raise my hand to make a lot less money, to work a lot more, to be able to develop these skills further.” So money aside, just talk to us about the transition of a year off, not using some of those skills perhaps that you obtained in your final year of school or throughout your PharmD as well as just the schedule differences and how you were able to get back into the flow and the rhythm when you started residency.

Trey Lowery: It was definitely a transition, to say the least. For the first couple of months when you’re getting licensed and studying for your board exams, it still feels a little bit like school because I was taking most days of the week to study for that and for job searching purposes and that kind of thing. So for the first couple of months, I didn’t feel like I could just completely relax and not have to worry about the scheduling part. But you’re right, once I got into the position I was in, it was very much I go to work and then I come home and then I don’t necessarily have a bunch of projects or schoolwork or studying to do. And it is definitely easy to get caught up in that position. So when making the transition back, I’ll be completely honest, it was difficult the first couple months. I really felt like I had to do some extra reviewing so that I knew the topics I really hadn’t used in a year or plus, since my rotations when I’m actually going through my rotations in residency. And the scheduling, it was very much a team aspect in our household. My wife definitely helped so much with figuring out ways that we could be able to make sure that we spent time together, that we were — that I had time to focus on my residency projects and had ample time to be at work when I needed to. And it was certainly not easy. But after the first couple of months of residency, I suppose you kind of get used to it. You know what you have to do at that point, but yeah. Certainly a big difference from how it was before then.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. So let’s transition to talk about some of the financial tips that you shared with us prior to the interview that I think would be really helpful for folks that are considering a similar pathway, you know, student, practicing pharmacist going back to residency or folks that may be transitioning jobs or careers. I can think of situations where someone’s salary might be reduced or they’re looking to go part-time or they’re making a transition to another position that doesn’t have the same salary and just general financial principles that I think are helpful for individuals that find themselves in a similar situation. And the first one that you mentioned, Trey, is to make sure you have a solid budget and solid habits around budgeting before you get started. So tell me about budgeting, how you and your wife created good budgeting habits and effectively budgeted prior to making this transition back into the residency position. What did this look like?

Trey Lowery: So I am thankful that both of my parents are very financially savvy and both of my wife’s parents are the same. So I actually started my first budget when I got my first job at age 16 because for me, I looked at budgeting not as something that was limiting what I got to spend and where I got to spend the money that I was earning, but I felt very relieved in that I could actually allocate where certain parts of my income was going and then it was OK for it to go to those areas. So when I — when we got married, that was very important to me. I had listened to plenty of examples from different financial advisors throughout the country and from YFP as well to where I knew that money can certainly become an issue in marriage. And so we really wanted to focus on that at the beginning to make sure we were on the same page and go ahead and knock that out. So I use primarily Mint.com and then a couple of other different spreadsheets to track the budgets that we make. And it certainly took a couple of months for that to really become an effective tool. It took some balancing in certain areas and making sure that we were on the same page of all the different categories and that kind of thing. But the reason I say that that’s such an important aspect is because if you don’t have that going into residency, you’re not going to be able to create it while you’re there. You’re not going to have enough time, probably not enough energy, and then if you do have a family, it’s going to be very difficult to get everyone on the same page in the chaos that is residency. So that’s why I recommend if you can, go ahead and — I mean, useful budgeting, good budgeting habits are beneficial for anyone at any time I believe. But if you can make sure that you have those working effectively beforehand, it will only benefit you once you actually enter the reduced salary stage.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great advice, Trey. And I think sometimes it’s easy, you know, P4s that are listening that are going to be starting a residency, starting a job, folks that are in a position such as yours that might be making a transition where there’s a salary change, sometimes it’s easy to say, “I’m just going to wait until I see what that actual pay stub and take-home pay is,” but I think you can get close enough, right? You can estimate close enough, work through the budget. It won’t be perfect, but the point is you’re being intentional, you’re being prepared with the transition, and then you can fine tune and refine it once you actually get that first pay stub and begin to move forward there knowing that you’ve been intentional and been prepared. Yeah, we have a budget template for folks that are looking to get started with a budget. If you go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/budget, we have an Excel template that you can download, work through that. We use a zero-based budgeting method and system, and then you can take that information and plug it into a tool like Mint.com, like YNAB, or any other budgeting tool or software or good ol’ pen and paper or Excel if that works best for you as well. So that’s No. 1 around budgeting. No. 2 here is increase your emergency fund if you don’t already have 3-6 months of expenses saved. So why, Trey, did you decide to focus on building emergency fund prior to residency? How did you guys practically do this? And did you end up having to use that fund at all during residency?

Trey Lowery: So this is something that we did initially upon finishing school. That was kind of our first major goal. And it was fun because it gave us something to work towards together that wasn’t high-risk, high-reward, that kind of thing. It was something that we knew that once we got there that would just be a nice cushion for us to have going forward. So the reason that I would recommend increasing your emergency fund or at least having the usual is kind of 3-6 months’ expenses is the recommended is because obviously if you’re decreasing your salary that much, a $1,000 home repair or a car expense or some kind of unexpected family emergency happens, when you’re on a six-figure salary, that isn’t that big of a deal. You just say, “OK, I’ll just move around this part of the budget, and we’ll cover it.” But when you’re in a residency salary, you know, let’s say you bought a house, you have a family, it’s going to be very difficult to make that unexpected expense be able to be covered. And then that could lead to things like putting it on a credit card and then that will only amplify and amplify as things continue to happen. So when you’re in residency, the last thing you want to be concerned I think is some kind of unexpected financial emergency. You’ve got plenty enough on your mind already. So if you can already have a good-sized emergency fund going into it, I think that will just help everything going forward.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great stuff. And this third one, you know, really caught me off guard the first time I read it. I had to reread it, and then I got to what you were saying exactly. And it’s really a great, great piece of advice. And that is look for salaries at prospective residency options, pick the lowest salary option — say what? — pick the lowest salary option, create a new budget using that salary. Depending on the results of your new budget, you may need to make adjustments. I think this tip is bold. Trey, tell us about what you mean by this, why you took this approach, and why this can be so valuable.

Trey Lowery: Like you mentioned, you may not exactly know the dollar amount that you’re going to have in your paycheck in order to create a full budget around. So for us, because we knew we were going to be located in the Iowa City area, I knew I was going to be applying for residencies within, you know, a 30-minute, hour range and not too much further. So I went on the forecast website and they have actually all the information regarding the salaries and some of the benefits of each of the programs that you’re applying for. And so when you match, you’re very much committed to that program that you match with. So if you have a bunch of different salary options, if you’re looking all over the U.S., it certainly I’m sure varies. If you can create your budget around the lowest one such that if you happen to match to the lowest salary option, which I actually did, so it ended up working out well. I didn’t have to change any of my budgeting once I actually started residency from that perspective. But if you can pick the lowest one, that will be your most strict option for your budget. And if you end up matching with a program that’s anything above that, then at that point, you’ll have extra to put towards other goals or other discretionary expenses, that kind of thing when you’re going into residency. But for me, it was just a way of not getting caught off guard when you had such a massive decrease in income all at once.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great advice, especially considering the separation you can see of resident salaries, depending on where they’re located, types of roles and things like that. So that can be a big difference if you’re looking at, I don’t know, $48,000 versus $40,000 for example. That can be a significant impact on that year and during that year as well. No. 4 is have a plan for your student loans during residency. What would it be in terms of a YFP podcast if we didn’t mention or talk about student loans? So let’s go there for a minute. How did you decide to handle your student loans during your first year working and then also in residency? Talk to us about the plan, the approach, the strategy you’ve taken, and how you ultimately have gotten to that decision that that is the best repayment plan and option for you.

Trey Lowery: So when I first figured out that I was going to be using student loans to get through graduate school, I had to figure out basically what was going to be my approach to either whether I’m going to pay them off or attempt to go for forgiveness, that kind of thing. When I first started pharmacy school, I really didn’t know that there was such a thing as forgiveness. And my dad always told me, “You know what, you’ll make enough, you’ll be able to pay it off. It’ll be good in the long run. Just go ahead and take them out. You’re going to need to because we couldn’t afford to send you all the way through graduate school.” So I went through pretty much all the way through school thinking that that was going to be my plan, that I was going to pay them off. And then in my fourth year of school, I actually went to a financial advisory meeting led by one Tim Ulbrich from Your Financial Pharmacist. And that is where I discovered that there actually were forgiveness options available, which I had not realized at the time. I feel like I might have already been somewhat committed because the financial gurus that I followed were like Dave Ramsey and some others, which are very much you took out the debt, you need to attack the debt and tackle it in order to make your own financial goals become a thing. But like I said, I hadn’t considered that there were actually other options. So ultimately after looking at the numbers and weighing how we felt about our debt, I did decide to go for the pay-it-off method, which I’m currently doing now, although granted the 0% interest and no payments are certainly a benefit in that.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Trey Lowery: With them being federal. But that was what we ultimately decided, and additionally, because I was at first at Hyvee and I wasn’t at one of the accredited organizations that would qualify for PSLF, I really didn’t know if I was ever even going to be in a position to do that.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Trey Lowery: So I did use my first year to do some paying off of the debt then as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I think that’s great, Trey. And you know, as I shared with you before we hit record, as I’ve said many times on this podcast before, this really is an individual situation. And you know, I think at the end of the day, it’s about having a plan, that you understand the options that are out there, and you feel confident in evaluating those options and knowing that when you apply those options on top of your personal situation that you’ve gotten down the path of the best repayment option or strategy for you personally as an individual. And I think for folks that are listening, you know, this can be a topic that obviously can be overwhelming, there’s lots of options, there’s forgiveness, there’s nonforgiveness, there’s federal, there’s private, the list goes on and on, and it can feel overwhelming. It can become paralyzing. And I think really digging in to understand the options is important and a great piece of advice here for those that are — really for anyone with student loans, but especially for those that are going back into a residency position or going through residency training to make sure that you’re using this time to evaluate those options. So I would recommend to our listeners, Tim Church wrote an awesome book on student loans for us, “The Pharmacist’s Guide to Conquering Student Loans,” really an A-Z guide of all things student loans, customized to the pharmacy professional, really meant to go through all of those options and help you apply that to your personal situation. You can learn more about that at PharmDLoans.com. Trey, this has been outstanding. I think for those that are currently in training, going to pursue training, whether it’s right from pharmacy school, going back, I think they’re going to find a lot of value in your advice and there’s a lot of wisdom here. Any other advice that you have, financial tips, wisdom to share with those that are listening that are going back into a residency position or going right into a residency position, making this transition? Any tips or advice that you would have for them as they go through that transition?

Trey Lowery: Well just like with finances, I think this is really a personal decision, and it depends on what your career goals are. Personally, I feel that if you are someone that is committed to pursuing your residency and you know that that’s the path that you want to take, you’re going to be able to figure out the finance part and make it work if you’re committed enough to following that path. So I think just taking some time to figure out what your career goals are and what steps you’re going to need to take to get there are probably the most important. And when I look back on my time during residency, obviously I’m not 40 years down the road at the moment, but I can say even nine months out that I really, really absolutely feel that it was worth it. And I think that in the long term, having a position that I really enjoy, that I feel like I gain a lot out of and I’m really able to make an impact on my patients’ lives the way that I think I would like to, no matter what, that’s going to be worth the $60,000, $80,000, however much you’re giving up for just one year. And if you were to develop good budgeting habits before that time ever comes, then that actually may end up benefiting you financially even more in the long run than not doing a residency in the first place. So I think there may be multiple benefits to pursuing that. But like I said, for me it’s really just depending on the individual.

Tim Ulbrich: You beat me to it, Trey. One of the things I believe — I have no evidence to support this, you know — but one of the things I believe is that a benefit of that year, if you take full advantage, or two years perhaps, is that it really does force you on some level to build some of the behaviors that can have a very long-term benefit throughout your career. So I think one way of looking it at is ‘Oh man, I’m not going to make much money at all.’ Another way of looking at it is, ‘Hey, maybe there’s an opportunity to learn some things throughout this year, whether it’s goal-setting, budgeting, being intentional in other parts of the financial plan, that can have a benefit well beyond those training years.’ So Trey, again, thank you for your time. And appreciate you and your willingness to come on the show to share your story.

Trey Lowery: Thank you so much, Tim. I’d like to say if anybody is in the YFP community on Facebook, feel free to reach out. I’d be happy to continue to share any other points that I might have. If this is something that you’re pursuing, definitely consider it because you definitely can do it. Thank you, Tim.

Tim Ulbrich: Thank you, Trey.

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YFP 198: What You Need to Know About the Most Recent Stimulus Bill

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What You Need to Know About the Most Recent Stimulus Bill

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Tim Baker and Tim Ulbrich break down the key points of the most recent $1.9 trillion stimulus package also known as the American Rescue Plan Act of 2021. Tim and Tim discuss the items that they think are the most relevant to your financial situation and plan, including the stimulus payments, the expansion of the child tax credit, the unemployment compensation and benefits, and what to make of the student loan forgiveness provisions being tax-free through the end of December of 2025.

Summary

On this episode, Tim Ulbrich and Tim Baker break down the key points of the American Rescue Plan Act of 2021 and the relevance of these key points to you and your financial plan. Tim and Tim review, in detail, the stimulus payments which many people have already received, how the total amount is calculated per tax filer or family, and the nuances and differences between this stimulus package and the two previous stimulus packages.

Tim Baker explains the new phase-out guidelines for stimulus funds in the current package, how the income ‘cliff’ could impact you, and a few ways to implement strategic financial planning to maximize your stimulus. He also breaks down the history of the child tax credit, how this package changes the way that the child tax credit benefit is applied and received, and provides a general guideline for calculating your expected child tax benefit.

Tim and Tim share about the changes and updates to the unemployment compensation and benefits as they relate to the current stimulus package. They also make some general predictions about the future of student loans and student loan forgiveness given the current impact of student loans debt on borrowers and the growing pressure from student loan holders for wide-sweeping change.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker, glad to have you on the show. How is everything going?

Tim Baker: Busy. Tax season is upon us, so yeah, it’s been really busy. But good. How about you, Tim?

Tim Ulbrich: Good, speaking of taxes, we’re going to come back to that topic today as we dig into the American Rescue Plan Act of 2021, also known as the most recent stimulus bill. And this of course, as our listeners already know, is the follow-up to the CARES Act from March 2020 and then the Consolidated Appropriations Act that was passed in late December of 2020. So the primary focus of these bills of course have been related to COVID-19 relief, but as we will discuss, there certainly are some broader implications here that we need to consider. And while this bill contains lots of things, many of which we’re not going to touch on today, we’re going to hit on those parts that we feel like are most relevant to the financial plan of the YFP community and to those that are listening. So Tim Baker, I’m going to put you on the hot seat here to try to break down hundreds of pages of bills as we talk about what does all of this actually mean? So give us the 10,000-foot view. What is the American Rescue Plan Act? And really, what are some of the key pieces that the bill focuses on?

Tim Baker: Yeah, when I see the numbers, Tim, I actually think they look like — it reminds me of like professional sports contracts, you know, when you first saw that first like that $100 million contract and now they’re signing ones that are $250 million. That’s kind of what it reminds me of. So the American Rescue Plan Act of 2021 was signed into law on March 11, 2021. It’s a $1.9 trillion — with a t — piece of legislation that, according to the Department of Treasury, will change the course of the pandemic and deliver immediate and direct relief to families and workers impacted by the COVID-19 crisis through no fault of their own. So this has been billed, pun intended, as one of the most progressive pieces of legislation in our history. And I think what Congress and what the president is seeing is that they’ve been — I think the numbers are like 9.5 million workers that have their lost jobs and 4 million have been out longer than a half a year or longer. So what this is really meant to do is kind of stimulate and help those that are in need. So to your point, there’s lots of things that this covers, one being like infrastructure, which we’re not even going to get into, but help with small businesses and vaccinations and testing and things like that. But I think what we try — want to do here is really kind of distill it down to what does this mean for many of the listeners that are tuning into this? And how does this affect me? And I think that’s what we’re excited to kind of dig in and jump in and talk through.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and to that point, we’re going to cover three main areas: Economic Impact Payments, also known as the stimulus payments, the Child Tax Credit, which I think is really substantial in some of the changes that are forthcoming there that I think will have an impact for many pharmacists listening and their families, and then also some that may have been impacted in terms of jobs and unemployment compensation. So those are the three areas that we’re going to focus on. Again, certainly not all-encompassing of what this piece of legislation includes but the three that we feel like are most relevant to you. So Tim, let’s start with the stimulus payments as these have already started going out, probably at the time of publishing for those that are eligible, it likely has already hit their bank account. But how much are people getting? What are the phaseouts here in terms of Adjusted Gross Income? And what’s different about this round of stimulus payments?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so stimulus payments or recovery rebates, whatever you want to call them, you know, this is really, to your point, Tim, round 3. So the first one with the CARES Act was, you know, a lot of people received or the tax filer received $1,200 and $500 for dependents. And dependents was more strictly defined. And then second round, I think it was something around $600 per person or per — is what they were looking at. This is the most generous. It’s the greatest stimulus, it’s $1,400 per person. Think of it as taxpayer or spouse. But then it’s also $1,400 for dependent. So a dependent is not strictly defined — this is not just anyone under 17. This could be a college-aged 21-year-old, somebody that you actually provide for the health and welfare. But it could also be for an elderly parent. So that was one of the big things that prior bills had really kind of left out in the cold that those parents that were caring for elderly parents and now all of that is included. So it is a greater benefit in terms of total dollars. It is a better definition in terms of what it qualifies as a dependent. But the big thing that changes are the phaseouts. So — and I wouldn’t even really call them phaseouts. They’re more like cliffs. So for the phaseouts for this round — and this is going to be based on either your 2019 or 2020 tax return. So for a lot of people — and we’re seeing this on the tax side — it might be beneficial to you to kind of hold filing your taxes or not. And this is one of the areas that’s going to be a big part of this. So for a single income or single tax filer, income below $75,000 in Adjusted Gross Income, you’re going to get that full $1,400 times a spouse and dependents, etc. So if you’re a single parent and you have a dependent, you’re going to get $2,800. Now the phaseout or more likely a cliff is very narrow. So once you get to that $85,000, so $75,000-85,000, then basically that rebate or that stimulus check is gone. For married filing jointly, the number is $150,000. And then it completely phases out at $160,000. So before these phaseouts were greater. Now they’re more like a cliff. So the idea here is — this is where planning can be very important here because when we’re actually seeing this — you know, I mentioned that tax season is upon us where as we’re talking through clients, we’re saying, “Hey, this return is ready to be filed. But we’re just holding onto it until the stimulus gets figured out and then we will go ahead and file the 2020, the tax return.” And it’s just basically a planning decision to get the most benefit for that client as we’re looking at those situations.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, I suspect we have many, many folks listening that that cliff, as you put it, which is really one of the main things that’s different here in addition to the amount of these payments, are going to be impacted because of that cliff. So if I’m someone who’s listening and 2019 and 2020, let’s say I was just above, married filing jointly let’s say for the sake of example, two dependents, so you know, if I were under that $150,000 would have been $5,600 if I’m doing my math correctly. Let’s say someone is just above that $160,000. Out of luck? It is what it is? Like what’s the strategy, if any, here for folks that are just above that cliff and that threshold of those payments?

Tim Baker: A lot of the — and we weren’t sure about this until recently — but a lot of the, with the extensions of the tax filing date, a lot of the targets or the accounts that you can also put money into like an HSA, like an IRA, have also been extended. So it might be where you shift your strategy or you’re saying, hey, I was really focused on this debt, i.e. student loans, that we know that our $0 payments with the CARES Act going until later this year. Maybe you’re trying to get ahead of that, but maybe you do shift some money into some of these other types of accounts to lower your AGI, specifically the HSA was probably the one because there’s no income limits. So these are things that you could do before you file. It’s a little bit of a circular logic because you have to — sometimes you have to get all those numbers in before you can actually figure it out, which again, it’s helpful when you’re having someone help you file your returns. So there can be some planning that you could do before you actually file. But there’s also a look ahead. So the bill basically affords people that potentially have a lower ‘21 tax year, so this year, that when they go to file in 2022 get a true-up or a credit to their taxes say in the future. So basically, the way that this was explained to me is that if you have your 2019 or 2020 return, and you’re in that phaseout, within that range, you’ll get a payout. And that’s typically direct deposit with whatever bank account that you have on, which make sure you do that. So just a message out there: Make sure your banking information is correct. We’ve had some that was incorrect, and that can take a long time to unwind. But the second checkpoint is if your 2020 AGI is less than 2019 and you filed before — so say you already filed your taxes, there is what’s called the additional payout determination date, APDD, that you could potentially — the IRS could potentially look at it and true you up if 2020 is lower than 2019. And then looking ahead to 2021, if the AGI is less than that upper threshold, the IRS will send an additional balance adjustment. So there are going to be some kind of fallbacks to make sure that the people that are in need of relief that are in and around these AGIs are going to be made whole. But there could potentially be some planning to get that money sooner.

Tim Ulbrich: Great summary. And I think what you just mentioned there highlights to me the importance of the planning, not only in the financial plan side of course, which we have been adamant about promoting the value of it and what our planning team does but also on the tax side. I mean, for that reason right there, if you look at someone who may be in this situation, what’s ahead for 2021, what could be done from a planning tax perspective with these numbers in mind as they look ahead to the year. So for folks that are interested in that service and working with our tax professional, working with our financial planning team, you can head on over to YFPPlanning.com and schedule a discovery call.

Tim Baker: And I would just say as a note to this, like this could be really where you are, if you have any control over things like bonuses or unpaid leave and things like this, you know, the planning I think potentially associated with this if you have a young family and you could potentially take FMLA or things like that, these are real-life things that it might not be worth you making that additional money to actually spend that time at home with your family. And that’s the impact of this is if you do a little bit of planning, you can get a really greater benefit that’s really even outside of the numbers of just the dollars and cents, so being paid to stay home in some way.

Tim Ulbrich: So Tim, you mentioned a good PR campaign for the IRS, make sure you have direct deposit set up. Make sure all that’s good.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: But if someone’s listening, they think they should have received a payment and they haven’t yet gotten one, what’s the strategy here?

Tim Baker: Yeah, just like anything tax-related, I put the heaviest weight on the IRS.gov. So if you go to www.IRS.gov/coronavirus/get-my-payment — and we can put this in the notes of the, you know, you should be able to see kind of the status and what that looks like. So the IRS — and you could probably just Google “IRS stimulus check,” and you’ll get this link and that basically will direct you in what you need to do.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, the other thing that comes to mind here is, you know, if I’m listening today, I’ve received perhaps a previous stimulus payment in Round 1 or 2 that maybe I’ve put in a savings account, it’s still sitting around or it might have been added too here in Round 3, I think it’s a good time to think about what are some considerations in the event of an unexpected windfall? So of course, assuming someone doesn’t have a short-term need for these dollars, gap of employment, some type of other need, how do you think through this in terms of OK, there’s dollars here now that perhaps weren’t planning on seeing those dollars, and the options of how somebody can best allocate those dollars to their financial plan?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I’m a big, big proponent of assigning kind of a purpose for like inflows. So you know, like with our business, Tim, like we get profit distributions from the business, like I have a set purpose for that. And it changes from time to time, but I know before the money comes in like what’s that for. So you know, for a lot of us — and again, if we rewind to 12 months ago when everything started to go down and we were starting to see job loss and things like that, you’re like, whoa, OK, this is why we have that emergency fund. And for a lot of people, that can be tough to swallow, especially because where interest rates are right now, you’re not being rewarded as a saver. You know, you’re more rewarded as a borrower for anything just because rates are so, so low. So you know, to me, it’s really getting comfortable with OK, if there was a catastrophic loss like me or my spouse can’t work and we don’t necessarily have the means to generate income quickly, just making sure that that is on point, the emergency fund is really important. But it can be a little bit of a double-edged sword because sometimes we get people that come and work with us and they have $120,000 in the bank and you’re thinking like, oh, that’s a good problem to have. And it is. But it’s a problem nonetheless. So to me, it’s really about once you feel comfortable with those cash reserves is then getting that money into the market. Now right now, one of the things that was not included in this, there was no RMD component to the bill. So you’re thinking like, OK, what’s an RMD. An RMD is Required Minimum Distribution. So once you get to a certain age — and I think they’ve recently changed this, but it was 70.5 — but once you get to a certain age, the IRS is like, “Hey, Tim Ulbrich, remember all that money you squirreled away in your 401k and you haven’t paid any taxes on it? Well now, we’re demanding, we’re requiring you to distribute some of that to yourself that you pay taxes on.” So they didn’t put anything in the bill with this because to be honest, those types of people are not really in need. It’s like, OK, you have all this money squirreled away and you don’t need it to live? Like there’s no reason for a stimulus or some support there. So to me, it’s really about getting the money into the market in a way — so that can be an HSA, it could be an IRA, that could be a brokerage account. And because of the way that rates are, you know, it’s getting invested, or it could be actually looking at something that is more life planning-related. So I’ve had clients recently that are pulling money from potential retirement accounts to do something for their family, which is like a vacation home, a cabin in the woods, that they’re asking me is this crazy? And I’m like, no, not really, because again, this is a use asset that you’re going to be able to rent out, you’re going to be able to enjoy with your family. You’re kind of trading one asset for another, and we’re doing it in a way that kind of minimizes the penalty and the impact. But things like that is like getting creative. And one of the things that you could do, Tim, is you could just stick this money into a checking account and it really does nothing for you. It doesn’t enhance anything about your life or your future plan. And that could be problematic as well.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think this is a timely topic, Tim. I’m thinking of folks that not only have received a windfall through like a stimulus but also may — I’m assuming many listening are still in this time period where they’re in administrative forbearance on their student loans. So dollars that were otherwise being put towards debt that maybe they’re not making those payments, obviously individual to everyone’s situation. Here, there’s also additional dollars. And I think this really highlights to me the benefit of you have a plan in place, you’ve been intentional, you think about the goals. And when that windfall happens, when something happens like you don’t have to make student loan payments, you’re able to quickly identify and direct where those dollars are going to go because you’ve already established the goals and the plan to support those goals.

Tim Baker: Yeah, and I think it goes back to the planning of — in a lot of ways, planning can start with us putting out fires, so to speak. But then it can really evolve to challenging the client to think outside of what is normal, what is expected. And case in point is like everyone thinks — a lot of people think, oh, I have to work until I’m 60 or 65. I’m like, well, do you? And again, this is potentially something that we want to challenge clients on and say like, “OK, we have resources that are here that we can direct in a way that, again, you feel that you’re living a wealthy life both today but then in the future.” I think going from that scarcity mindset to more of an abundance mindset and challenge the client to push their planning in a new direction I think is important too.

Tim Ulbrich: So let’s shift gears to the child tax credit. I think this one has made a significant splash as a part of this bill. Somewhat I guess difficult just to understand exactly what is changing, what’s going to be different, who qualifies, who doesn’t. But I suspect listening are going to be interested in watching this unfold to understand how this impacts them and their personal situation. So child tax credit, tell us a little bit more, Tim, about what’s included in the American Rescue Plan as it relates to the expansion of the existing child tax credit that we have.

Tim Baker: Yeah, and this actually was a tax credit that was expanded in the Tax Cut and Jobs Act under the Trump administration. So back in the day, it was you had a child and it was $1,000 credit. Now before, we used to get exemptions on the tax return and those have gone away. But one of the things that the Tax Cut and Jobs Act did is that it changed the credit, it doubled it from $1,000 to $2,000. And then it really expanded the phaseouts. So at a baseline today, if you have a child, you get a tax credit of $2,000 and that doesn’t phase out until $200,000 for a single taxpayer and doesn’t phase out until $400,000 for a married couple filing jointly. So it’s already a lot more generous. And then with this extra temporary provision as part of the American Rescue Plan, it actually increases more. So the credit amount has been increased so it goes from $2,000 to $3,600 for children under the age of 6. And that’s by the end of the tax year. So I think Olivia turns — I think — Olivia turns 7 this year, so I’m going to be over that. But then it does go to $3,000 for other children under the age of 18 by the end of the year. The example here would be if you have three kids, 2 years old, 4 years old and 8 years old, previously that would have been a flat $6,000 credit. So $2,000 times each kid, so $2,000, $2,000, $2,000 would be the $6,000 credit. Now the credit would actually be $10,200. So you get the full credit for your 2-year-old, $3,600, a full credit for your 4-year-old, which would be $3,600, and then $3,000 for your 8-year-old because you’re above the 6-year-old threshold. So that would be a total of $10,200. So for those of you that have lots of kids — Tim Ulbrich — this could potentially be a big benefit. So the other big part of this is that the scope has been expanded so children 17 years old and younger as opposed to 16 years old. So it gives you an extra year. Now, the other things it does is it follows the same phaseouts as the recovery rebate, as the stimulus check. So again, from a rebate perspective and from a child tax perspective, for married filing jointly, that $150,000-160,000 is critical. And finally, the one big thing that it does and that I want to go through the advanced payments really quick, but it’s now fully refundable. So non-refundable tax credits, Tim, basically what that would mean is let’s pretend at the end of day, you have a $10,000 tax bill. But then you have $10,000 of fully refundable, so that would basically, it would zero out your tax bill. If you had $12,000 of a refundable tax credit, you would actually get $2,000 back. But if you had $12,000 of a non-refundable tax credit, it would just zero it out. So for the IRS, the tax credits are the most generous in terms of credit versus deduction. But a fully refundable credit is even better because that actually sends money your way versus this is zeroing out your balance. So that’s really important.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, I want to rewind and make sure I understood correctly — and correct me if I’m wrong. So they are looking at when we talk about the phaseouts, they’re looking at 2020 income in terms of AGI?

Tim Baker: It’s going to be whatever’s on file.

Tim Ulbrich: Whatever’s on file, OK.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so again, this is one of the things where you’re — if your 2020 income was higher than 2019, you know, especially if it’s within that threshold, if you’re filing your taxes and that disqualifies you, you want to make sure that you put a pin in that and not file. And that’s just a little bit of planning. Now, if it has gone down because of the pandemic and say you made $180,000 as a family and this year, you’re going to be making $145,000-150,000, then absolutely get that tax return filed and get the benefit of both the stimulus checks but also the child tax credit.

Tim Ulbrich: Gotcha. And if I understand correctly before we go onto the advanced payments and how these are going to be distributed or at least what we think they will be as of now, the phaseouts — so you mentioned that $200,000/$400,000 on the existing tax credit of $2,000. And then you mentioned the phaseouts of income here that also mirror what we saw in the stimulus payments. That is for the bonus amount, correct? So from what is going $2,000 to $3,000 or $2,000 to $3,6000?

Tim Baker: Yeah, that’s right. So you have the baseline amount that’s the what’s part of the Tax Cut and Jobs Act. And then yeah, this would be the — it’s called the extra temporary benefit.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Tim Baker: So yeah, that’s right.

Tim Ulbrich: And so for those that are listening like I was when I read this, like my goodness, just tell me what the number is please. So there’s a good calculator I found on Kiplinger.com we’ll link to in the show notes where you can enter in AGI, kids that are under 6, kids that are above 6, and it will project out what that payment will be. But of course, again, I think working with somebody and thinking about some of the strategy side of this can be really helpful as well. So Tim, how will this be paid out? Talk to us about the advance payments of credit and ultimately at least what the IRS is thinking right now, although to be fair to the IRS, they’re also in the midst of tax season, of course we have an extension to that as well. So I think there’s going to be further guidance coming in this area. But what at this point are we expecting?

Tim Baker: Yes, this is kind of a nuanced with this particular part of the bill is that this is actually going to paid out almost like a stimulus check versus like a credit, which you typically don’t see with this type of legislation. So you’ll likely get half of the credit paid out on monthly checks beginning in July. And I think one of the — I might have said it was based on the ‘19, but it actually might be based on 2020 regardless because the payout is going to start in 2021, in the summer. So this might be where it is tacked on to the 2020 versus ‘19. But another example, your AGI is under the $150,000, you have a child under the age of 6, the credit, the total child tax credit would be $3,600. And you would get basically $300, so $300 per month or $1,800 basically between July and December. So the idea is they want to try to get more money into people’s hands and then the rest of that, the other $1,800 would be when you file your 2021 taxes. So now, if you look at the benefit, when you stack it up, in other years that $2,000 credit, which we would just get basically at tax time, it goes from $2,000 to $3,600 and then they divide up half of it is coming to you in check form between July and December and the other half at tax time. That’s the big thing. And again, this is going to be — to clarify from what I said before — this is going to be for 2020, your 2020 taxes, and then basically pay out the rest of the year and then the credit or the true-up would be in 2021 when you file your 2020 taxes. So clear as mud.

Tim Ulbrich: And as I understand it, there’s going to be a portal where folks can enter in information, update it, so somebody that says, “Hey, Tim and Tim, we’re having a baby in 2021 will we be able to update that information?” or if payments go out without updated information that then essentially there would be a true-up when they go to complete that 2021 return.

Tim Baker: That’s correct. Yeah, the idea is that at the end of it, you know, if you filed in subsequent years and you’re in the following year that what the IRS or what the government is trying to do is make sure that you get those dollars that you wouldn’t have otherwise because of yeah. So from a behavioral perspective, it’s going to be interesting because, again, before this was all just kind of figuring out on the wash at tax time, but now you’re actually going to see people starting to receive checks throughout the course of the year, which is, again, a little bit different than what we’re typically used to outside of these bills that come around the economy starts to tank.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think the other thing, Tim, here that’s interesting and certainly we’ll keep the audience up-to-date for folks that are watching this as well is nothing has been decided yet, but my understanding is there are some policymakers that are considering, you know, is this expanded credit something that should become permanent? And so you know, obviously that has implications beyond what we’re talking about here but could be significant to many folks in terms of what that means for their financial plan. So that’s the child tax credit, as you said, clear as mud. So the last piece we want to briefly touch on is unemployment compensation. So we obviously know some of the challenges you referenced early on, Tim, in terms of some of the job loss. We suspect that some listening in terms of their pharmacy positions may have or are currently facing a situation of unemployment or a spouse or significant other, so I think this is noteworthy. What do we see in the American Rescue Plan Act as it relates to the unemployment compensation?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so the good part about this is that it’s been extended. So one of the big headlines in and around before they signed this bill into law and they were going back and forth between the House and the Senate was that, hey, these unemployment benefits were expiring. So typically that’s the beauty of deadlines, right? So the pandemic unemployment assistance, these benefits were set to expire March 14. They’ve been extended until September 6. So if you fall under that bucket, you’ll have a few more months of relief. And then the other big thing that is important to note that is the federal pandemic emergency unemployment piece, this is the additional check amounts. So you have the state benefits, so the state will pay you, you know, $500 a week for unemployment. But then what the federal government did is they added another $300 per week. So this has also been extended, which is important because there’s some states that the way they calculate their unemployment, it’s tough to live off of or survive. So these are the big things. And then the other thing that happens, happened, is that the first $10,200 of unemployment is tax-free. So what this means is that for per person, so if I’m unemployed, the first $10,200 of unemployment compensation received in 2020 will be tax-free. So the AGI must be under $150,000 AGI. So that’s the number you keep seeing. And this is all filing statuses. So it doesn’t matter if you’re single or married filing jointly. And this is a true cliff. So if you make $150,001 and you had unemployment, that unemployment will be taxed. If it’s just under that, then that will be tax-free. So this is a true cliff, there’s no phaseout whatsoever. So again, if you, you know, did file for unemployment and you received compensation, this will be another thing to take a look at to make sure that you’re under that because that could thousands of dollars in terms of your tax liability.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, the last piece I wanted to ask you about, it certainly did not make as much of a splash in the news as did the stimulus components, the tax credits, or the unemployment compensation, but there was some news that came out related to a loan forgiveness that I suspect some of our listeners are trying to figure out does this mean, if anything, for my own personal loan situation? So specifically related to what we often talk about, Non-Public Service Loan Forgiveness and the tax-free component, tell us about the change here as it relates to loan forgiveness and what we saw in the American Rescue Plan Act.

Tim Baker: Yeah, you know, the big question that a lot of people were saying is like, what’s the loan forgiveness in the bill? And there really wasn’t much in there. And I think a lot of people think that this could be potentially a precursor to what President Biden wants to do in his tax bill. But the big thing that did come out is that it does include a discharge of student debt as taxable income for both federal and private loans. But this debt discharge has to occur between the years 2021 and 2025. So as most people know with PSLF, you know, if I am in that program and I do my 120 payments over 10 years and I have $60,000 that’s forgiven, because of that program, that $60,000 is not viewed as taxable income. But if I’m in a non-PSLF forgiveness option and I do that for 20 or 25 years, that’s $60,000 is then reported as taxable income in the year of forgiveness. So if I make $100,000 and that year I get $60,000 forgiven, it’s as if I earned $160,000 that year. So this is one of the things that they added. Now, for a lot of the non-PSLF forgiveness strategies, some of these won’t even become due until like later in this decade. So it doesn’t really move the needle much.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: I think what this is really trying to address are you get excited or I’ll get excited sometimes when I see like oh, there was student debt forgiven. But it was a lot of these like for-profit schools that kind of misled borrowers and things — I think it’s really trying to address those people that have been forgiven, which are very, very small percentage of people out there that through legislation that they’ve been forgiven and they’re not going to be taxed as if they received that income. So very, very, very minimal in terms of what came out from the student loan borrower. Now President Biden has indicated a willingness to kind of do something here with student loans. I’ve had people that I’ve talked to, prospective clients who are saying, “Hey, I’m trying to figure out what he’s going to do.” I think what President Biden wants to do is have some type of bipartisan legislation and not use the executive order. I know Democrats are calling anywhere from they want $30,000-50,000 — I mean, you have some that are saying the whole, all of it. But typically more moderate Democrats are saying $30,000-50,000. President Biden I think has expressed a willingness to potentially the executive order to do $10,000 per borrower. But who knows, Tim?

Tim Ulbrich: You don’t have a direct line to Biden? I mean, what’s the problem?

Tim Baker: I don’t. I mean, he is an Eagles fan, as I am being from Delaware originally. So we’ve got that going. But nope, I don’t have the direct line to Biden, unfortunately.

Tim Ulbrich: So am I understanding this correctly, Tim, that this is in part potentially setting up tax-free forgiveness if something were to move in that area? So if this window of time, 2021 up through end of 2025, so let’s fast forward six months, 12 months, 18 months, whatever, whether it’s legislatively or through executive order, there’s some forgiveness that is granted, let’s just say for sake of conversation it’s a $10,000 forgiveness as an executive order. This is in part setting it up that that $10,000 would then be tax-free forgiveness?

Tim Baker: Yeah, I think that’s what they’re doing. Again, a lot of what’s in this bill I think is planting seeds for what could potentially come in the Biden tax bill, which could be very much a needle move or so. I think so. I mean, I think that a lot of people, a lot of borrowers are really — they come to me and they say like, “Tim, I don’t want to look at the forgiveness option because I don’t trust it, blah, blah blah.” And I get that. But again, especially when you look at the PSLF and you look at the math, it’s really hard to look at the numbers and say, “Yeah, let’s not at least consider that.” The reason I’m bringing this up is that I think because of all the rhetoric around student loans and how it can be suffocating to someone — we’ve talked about studies that people get married later, buying houses later, starting their families later, all of those things. I think it could potentially be breadcrumbs potentially to look at a forgiveness that’s similar to PSLF, even for working in the private sector but not necessarily the same timeline but the same tax, where it is tax-free. Or not. It could be — I could be completely off the mark there. I guess what I’m saying is that I think that the student loan, like the borrower, where we’re at today, it’ll be more generous to them in the future, not less. So a lot of people are saying like, “Oh, well PSLF could go away.” And I’m like, “It could, but I don’t think so.” Like if I’m looking at that, I’m thinking as a borrower, it’ll be more generous because I think it’s just something that the screams are going to get louder and louder, you know, in terms of like, hey, this is a — this system is not working where the price of schools are and things like that, it’s not working so we need to have some forgiveness. I mean, you look at $1.9 trillion, you know, that would do a whole lot in the student loan department because I think it’s — what, $1.6-1.7 now.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, pretty close. Yeah, great stuff. And I think we have covered a lot, Tim. And I think for our visual learners that are saying, hey, that’s great information but I need to see some of the numbers for myself, read through this, understand it in a little bit more detail, we’re going to link in the show notes to the treasury.gov information. We’ll also link to the Kiplinger calculator that I mentioned earlier when we discussed the child tax credits. And our hope is that you’ll be able to understand and apply that information to your personal situation and of course, we’re here and ready to work with you for those that are looking for a financial planner to be in their corner as well as to have a tax professional working alongside of them. So before we sign off for the day, I want to invite you again to a free webinar that we’re going to be doing on April 14 at 8:30 EST where we’re going to be talking about student loan strategies for 2021. So as we’ve discussed here briefly, we all know that administrative forbearance is set to expire at the end of September 2021, really making now the perfect time to determine the best way to tackle your student loans. So during this webinar, I’m going to share how to decide whether you should be paying on your federal student loans during the administrative forbearance, how to evaluate the loan repayment strategies that are out there, and what steps you need to take to pick the best repayment plan for your personal situation.

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YFP 195: How to Save for Your Child’s Education

Posted on by yfpadmin

How to Save for Your Child’s Education

On this episode sponsored by IBERIABANK/First Horizon, Tim Baker and Tim Ulbrich talk through strategies for saving money for your children’s college education. They discuss phases of planning for educational expenses, how to project how much to save, and various options for saving for kids’ college including 529s, Coverdell Education Savings Accounts, UGMA and UTMA Accounts, and Roth IRAs.

Summary

On this episode, Tim Baker and Tim Ulbrich talk through strategies for saving money for your children’s college education.

They discuss phases of planning for educational expenses including how to project how much to save. The two main phases of planning for educational expenses, the accumulation phase and the decumulation phase, are explained. In the accumulation phase, even before your children are born but before they begin attending college, parents will need to first assess their overall financial picture and situation, select the savings vehicle that fits the needs of the financial plan, actually fund the account, and check in regularly to make sure that the plan is on track to meet the educational financial goals. In the decumulation phase, parents are actively making financial decisions that directly impact the cost of the child’s education. The decumulation phase also includes actually paying for college. In both phases there are numerous ways to plan and save, each of which should take into consideration the retirement of the parent as well as their wishes for funding for the child(ren)’s education.

Tim and Tim also break down various options for saving for kids’ college including 529s, Coverdell Education Savings Accounts, UGMA and UTMA Accounts, and Roth IRAs, how they work, as well as the pros and cons for each when predicting the future expenses for your child’s education.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker, glad to have you back on the show.

Tim Baker: Good to be back. How’s it going, Tim?

Tim Ulbrich: Good. I’m excited about this episode, one that we I know get lots of questions about from the community, from clients. I think it’s an anticipated episode. As I mentioned, a topic around college savings for kids that I believe is top-of-mind for many folks, of those that either have children or those that are thinking about having children down the road and the question is how do you best save for your child’s education? And as pharmacists, we’re all aware — acutely aware — how expensive school can be. 2020 graduate, $175,000 is the median debt load. We all know what that means in terms of our own education and therefore I think it’s probably front of mind as we think about our children’s education as well. Tim Baker, I suspect this is a topic our planning team gets lots of questions about from our clients. Is that accurate?

Tim Baker: Yeah. And it really comes from a place of like, I don’t really know how to approach this. So it’s more of a — I think more so than other things, it’s more of a blank canvas. Some people we kind of direct them if like, hey, if you don’t have a strategy here, we can talk through it. Some people are like, I don’t want my kid to go through what I experienced. I’m going to do whatever I can. And there’s every shade of gray here. So it is definitely something that we talk through with clients who are kind of in the phase of life where they’re just having kids all the way up into where they’re starting to go to college and trying to crack that nut. So it’s definitely something that is top-of-mind for a lot of the families that we work with.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think it’s important before we get into account options and strategies — and we’re going to talk about 529s, probably the most well known option in the group, we’ll talk about coverdell account. We’ll talk about some taxable options, Roth IRAs and so forth. But i think before we get there, it’s important we zoom out for a moment, talk about really two phases of planning for educational expenses, the accumulation and decumulation phase. So Tim, talk us through these two phases, what they are, and thoughts that folks may have as they’re planning for kids’ college in these two phases.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so planning for education is very similar to planning for retirement. You know, we as employees will have a 30-, 40-, 50-year career, whatever that might look like. And typically, the overwhelming majority of that is in the accumulation phase where you are gathering assets and then you go through a decumulation or a withdrawal phase as you go into retirement. The same is true, to a lesser degree in terms of timeline, from an education perspective. So you have an accumulation phase, which is — could be before your kiddo is born all the way up until they’re 18 where they go to college and then you transition to a decumulation phase or a withdrawal phase where you’re actually paying for college. So a lot of families, especially with multiple kids, Tim, you’ll experience this with your boys potentially where you have four different one of these kind of rolling at the same time. So the accumulation phase is when you’re kind of just trying to assess what are your goals with respect to the education planning. So for a lot of people, it’s like, I don’t want my child to experience what I’m experiencing right now. For some people, it’s like, I think they need to have a little bit of it but to a lesser extent. And for some people, it’s like, that’s not part of my AO at all, like I’m not necessarily concerned about that. It’s kind of going through the process of organizing and selecting the appropriate investment vehicles to basically meet the goals that are in front of us, how do we want to fund it, so what is — how are we going to basically put dollars in those appropriate funds? And then just kind of those check in regularly along with the rest of the financial plan to see if we’re on track or off track, just like we would do for retirement and the like. And then really transition to the decumulation phase where it’s more about — and I kind of think about this in terms of the financial plan where you’re not a reactive spectator as I was when I was kind of going through this. I was kind of just I’m going to try to get into the best school that I can and I’ll figure out the price tag and everything later on but more of you’re making empowered, informed decisions about college. I think that’s needed, especially because of where the price of school has gone. So just being more in the driver seat and really work on saving on the cost for college, not just for the cost of college. So one of the big things that we’ll talk a bit about is just college is so ambiguous in terms of what it costs. There’s no price tag for everyone. And potentially help be that objective third party that’s removing the emotion and making an irrational home buying decision and do all this while you are taking care of No. 1, i.e. you and your retirement. It kind of goes back to that idea of put your mask on first before you can put your child’s mask on. The same thing is for education planning. So we don’t want to rob your own financial plan for your child’s college tuition. So those are really kind of the two broad phases that have different nuances as we’re going through them.

Tim Ulbrich: And one of the things you mentioned, Tim, in the accumulation phase is assessing the goal, starting to identify what the need is. And as a parent of a young child myself, multiple children, I struggle with the concept of projecting into the future to estimate educational expenses 5, 10, 15+ years into the future, although I know it’s important to begin to think about that and put some numbers around that as well. So how do you walk through this with clients when it comes to projecting the need?

Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s similar to like retirement. You know? Like we don’t really know what the cost of A, B, or C will be. We know that there’s going to be a factor that’s going to be inflation. We know that over the course of the last few decades that the cost of college education has increased threefold over a 17-year period meaning when your child is born, if it costs $40,000 to go to college today, by the time they’re ready to go, multiply that by 3 and that’s basically what a four-year education will cost. So you know, again, this goes back to the whole idea of like investing and time in the market versus time in the market and the time value of money. And for a lot of us, it’s just — it doesn’t necessarily need to be a completely balanced equation. It’s more about am I on track? And am I funding the education funds that are kind of in line with what my goal is? So there are some individuals — and I’ve actually had conversations with individuals where they’re like, we would love to have more kids, but we’re going to stick with the two that we have because if we add another one, we’re not going to be able to have that 100% solution for education. And those are conversations that I want to really dive into a bit more and really see if there is a potential way around it. So you know, just like retirement, we’re going to be tracking if we’re on track or off track. We do the same with education. The problem is that the cost, again, is ambiguous. There’s lots of components to the cost. There’s not like an itemized list that parents can go and say, “OK, this is exactly what it’s going to be. I’m going to know what that’s going to be in 17 years.” We’re just basically using all the tools, the data, we are making this almost just like we would in retirement. And we’re building the plan around that.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think that’s an interesting point, Tim, the ambiguous costs that are involved. There’s the sticker price of an institution, which from my alma mater, they’ve evolved that approach from big sticker price, discounting it with lots of scholarships, so the true cost is not anywhere near the sticker price to others where the sticker price, you’re in in-state tuition without scholarships and other things might exactly be that amount. And you’re looking at that times three or four or however long it takes. So talk to us about types of costs, types of expenses. What are things that folks need to be thinking about here in terms of the factors that would inform what that overall need may be? Or at least to project that need.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so you know, I think the way that a lot of the tools are built, the financial planning tools that this is kind of what we walk through clients on, you know, you have these different sectors of school. So you have maybe like a private nonprofit four-year on campus experience, which may be the most expensive. So like today’s dollars, it’s like $49,000 is the grand. And then we break those up into the different components: tuition and fees, room and board, books and supplies, transportation expenses, and other. So we have that but then we have all the way down to the public two-year kind of in-state commuter student that it’s a fraction of that, $17,000 all in. So we have the ability to, using the data that we have with some type of inflation number, to say OK, if you want your student to go to Ohio State and you’re in-state, it’s going to cost this much. And then we can build a plan around that. If you want your child to go to just the average four-year out-of-state or in-state, it’s going to cost this much. So you can be very, very granular on this. But really, the things to look at is tuition. So they say a rule of thumb is out-of-state tuition is roughly two times more expensive than in-state. Sometimes it’s a credit per hour, sometimes it’s a flat rate. Room and board, I’m going to do the don’t cut across my lawn, shake my cane at you — but like I remember looking at schools in the early 2000s when I was graduating high school and it being very much a bunk bed cinder block, not necessarily a great cafeteria expenses. And then listening to some of my younger cousins and saying like, “They do what?” And it’s kind of like an arms race, so to speak. And I think that’s one of the reasons that — you’re competing for students — but that’s one of the reasons why some of these have gone up. So room and board, does the school require on-campus housing for freshmen, even sophomores? That’s becoming more and more of a thing. A lot of schools have talked about freezing tuition, but room charges kind of remain unchecked. And a lot of these amenities kind of inflate the cost. It could be food where there’s meal plans. Typical meal plans could be $1,000-2,000 per semester. It could also be things like different fees that are for courses or parking or student ID and orientation, library, legal services, student government. It goes on and on. And these are things that can kind of just start really increasing — it could be textbooks. I know there’s a lot of things that are trying to disrupt that in terms of rentals and things like that. And then just transportation or personal expenses. I know you’ve seen back in the day like oh, like do you use student loans to go and travel and do that? And a lot of people are like, you know, let me live. A lot of people are like, I don’t want to do that because I don’t want to have that inflated student loan number at the end. So it’s very much a layered process in terms of what you’re paying. I think to be able to have some guidance and some counsel on this — and there are financial planning practices that specialize in this alone, especially for a lot of people that are working with Gen X individuals. So I think to have a person to help coach you and your teenager, which can be a little bit different. I know if I transport myself back to that, I’m like, I’m doing what I want.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Tim Baker: But I think if we reframe some of the conversations — and we see it when we talk to schools of pharmacy. If we’ll say, “Hey, the average debt load is $175,000,” that’s like funny money, right? But then if you actually equate it to like what does that cost per month in student loans and then you maybe multiply that by 12, which is close to $2,000, a year $24,000 if we go to the standard plan, that’s where you’re like OK, like maybe we need to have a more rational, less emotion, and make sure that, again, if you’re in pharmacy, all of that education equates to a higher income. But that’s not the case for everybody. If you go study something different that you’re not necessarily aligning what you’re paying in tuition with the expected salary.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, one of the things you said, which is something that I’m struggling to think through — Jess and I — with our boys is I’ve heard you talk about taking current costs and projecting out for some factor of growth that we may expect and certainly we’ve all seen the numbers of tuition and fees, important point you made up — fees that are going up that far surpass inflation and historically have gone up at really incredible rates. But it’s important to note there is somewhat of a national conversation going on about the need for more affordable higher education or even perhaps in some cases free education. So this is something that I feel like I’m struggling reconciling is might I be overprojecting the need? And what’s the opportunity cost of that in terms of where else that money could be used and if it’s tied up in this account or that account? We’ll get into that a little bit with individual accounts, but what are your thoughts on that? Not asking you to crystal ball higher education over the next 20 years, but in projecting the need based on going forward and what we’ve seen historically with growth but also some discussions around perhaps this might be more affordable or in some cases free.

Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s a great question. And you see a lot of the political discourse around this in terms of like a more progressive political movement to forgive student debt and then offer free options. I’m going to talk out of both sides of my mouth in some degree. So like I think from a planning perspective, it’s tough to — you know, I kind of always default to the status quo. So just assume things are not going to change. But then when I talk about the 529, I’m kind of talking out of the other side of my mouth in that I think that over the last couple years and I think projecting the future, the dollars in those accounts are going to be able to be used for more liberal purposes even than what they’re used for today. So the free college discussion, I do think that there is a very real possibility that by the time, Tim, our kids go to school, that’s going to be an option on the table, an option that I think that a lot of people should seriously consider. I’m kind of putting myself back in that, like would I want to do that myself? And the answer is probably no, I wouldn’t have. But it might make more rational sense to do that, especially if you don’t know what you want to do, which again, most 17- or 18-year-olds don’t really know that. I think that’s going to be the real — the first big domino to fall is going to be kind of that free two-year community college. And I don’t know what stipulations are going to be on that, but I typically from a planning perspective, I plan as if it’s the status quo and hope that potentially there is an improved reality. So like one of the things they just announced with the latest bailout package was that they’re changing some of the rules to the income-driven plans that if you get forgiveness for a non-PSLF strategy between now and 2026, that that’s tax-free. Like you don’t have to pay the tax bomb.

Tim Ulbrich: No tax bomb, yeah.

Tim Baker: But the caveat to that — there’s not very many people because those are 20- to 25-year plans. There’s not many people that are in that boat. So it’s nice, but is that something that they’re going to extend permanently?

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Tim Baker: Maybe, but do you say — you look at that, and you’re like, do you stop saving for the tax bomb? I don’t know if I would feel comfortable telling the client to do that. Now, the nice thing about the tax bomb was typically in a taxable account that you can use that and say OK, no more tax bomb, let me go buy a vacation home. That’s great. If it’s in a 529 account, maybe not so much. So yeah, I think it’s a great question. I think one of the things that a lot of people — and I had these conversations with prospective clients that were like, ‘Yeah, I’m kind of just waiting for this election to see if Biden gets elected what he’s going to do on the student loans to kind of push forward on my strategy.’ And I’m like, in my inside voice I’m thinking like, I wouldn’t hold your breath. And again, like could he forgive student loans? Maybe. But it doesn’t sound like he has an appetite to do it from an executive action. And if it’s — it’s going to be I think for most pharmacists very inconsequential. And again, I don’t know if I would hold up my life, my strategy, to wait for the politicians to come in and save it. So you know, whether that’s $10,000 or $30,000, it’s tough. So I think the big thing to kind of follow, which I think will be — is like that two-year. But then what are the stipulations for that? And then does your student, does your kiddo fit into that? I don’t know if that’s a — if it really, really affects my plan from an education standpoint. So that’s kind of what my take is on that.

Tim Ulbrich: Great discussion. And I think it’s important for folks to consider that on their own as well. And let’s shift now into talking about some of the accounts that are available for kids’ college. We’ll spend a decent amount of time on the 529. We’ll also talk about the Coverdell accounts, the UTMA accounts, taxable accounts, Roth IRAs, so different options here that we might consider. Tim, let’s start with the 529s. Obviously they come up in conversation probably the most often from my experience. What is a 529? What type of contribution limits are out there? How can it be used? And talk to us about these accounts at a high level.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so the way that I think about these are these are essentially like retirement accounts for education. But it’s really going to be dependent in terms of — so why do I say retirement accounts? Because most retirement accounts have tax-preferred status. Like if you put dollars in here, you can save taxes. But every state’s going to be different, right? So one of the big things that makes this attractive for a lot of parents is that the parent essentially owns the account. So a lot of these other ones that you mentioned, it’s like, these are Coverdells, UTMAs, UGMAs, these are custodial accounts that really belong to the student. So these are like retirement accounts, but for education that the parent owns. And one of the big things that I think is exciting that really happened over the Trump administration is that they’ve loosened up what these 529s could be used for. So back in the day, you would use these for a long accumulation period. So you would say, “Hey, little Johnny was born in 2000. He’s going to go to school in 2018.” And for those 18 years, you would basically put money in there and then whatever is left over, that’s what he would use for qualified education expenses. Now with some of the changes to the Tax Cut and Jobs Act under the Trump administration, you can now use it both as an accumulation account, so in future like when Johnny goes off to college, but then also today when Johnny starts kindergarten and he’s going to a private school or all the way up through 12th grade. So under the federal law, savers can now throw up to $10,000 to pay for students K-12 tuition. Now every state is going to be different in terms of what they allow. So that’s important to know what your state does allow. The other big thing that the 529 account — so this was under the SECURE Act, basically that it now allows, which is crazy that this is even a thing, but it now allows qualified student loan repayments up to $10,000 per beneficiary from the 529. So before this, if you had $10,000 in a 529 and you had $10,000 in loans, you couldn’t use that money without a penalty, without a 10% penalty to pay that off, which is crazy talk. Like there shouldn’t even be a $10,000 contingent on that. It should be if you have money in there and you have loans, you should be able to pay it off. And then the last thing that the SECURE Act does is it allows you to use the money for like apprenticeship programs. So like we talk about education — I know Tim and I, we talk about this kind of behind closed doors about like what does higher education look like in the future, what’s this going to look like for us versus our kids, and is there going to be a swing back to more of the apprenticeship type programs and that type of thing. And the 529 is opening up that. And you might be surprised by this, but even — like even when I started learning about the 529s, they didn’t allow you to use it for like a laptop or things like software, so it’s been a gradual thing. So I think that the restrictions are going to continue to kind of be loosened up, just because of the need to kind of solve this problem. So the 529, think of it as a retirement-like account that you can put in money and get a deduction on the state level, depending on the state, and basically grow that money tax-free. So if I put in $10,000 over five years and it grows to $20,000, I don’t pay capital gains tax on that as long as it’s used for qualifying education expenses. And I don’t pay any tax on the back end. I do pay a penalty if I use it to buy a car for my kid or something like that. The other big things in terms of flexibility is that let’s say Johnny doesn’t want to go to college. Let’s say he wants to start his own business, which I might be a big proponent of, maybe buy a franchise and learn that. So he can’t use the 529 for that. But maybe Jane, our second child, can. So you can basically use those — and let’s pretend Jane doesn’t want to go. Then maybe their grandkids do. You use it for that. So the money can sit there and grow. A lot of people think like, oh, I’ll never be able to use it. Like you can just keep changing beneficiaries, essentially, and use it for the children or the grandchildren that do need it. So I am a big proponent of it. I know some people, they kind of feel bound by some of the rules because it’s like, what if you don’t use them for qualified education expenses? But I think it’s a viable way to not only get a state tax deduction based on the state that you live in but also to allow those moneys to grow tax-free without paying capital gains that you would see on like a brokerage account or something like that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and the way I think about these, Tim, just to draw another example to how you explained the tax considerations, I think about these as like a Roth IRA for educational savings. So money going in has already been taxed dollars, it’s going to grow tax-free, you can pull it out tax-free for qualified expenses, which you outlined. I do want to just mention because I think it’s worth further explanation, you gave the example that these can now be used for not just higher education but let’s say I have a child who’s in a private education K-12. And some folks might be hearing that saying, “Well, what’s the purpose if I don’t have the long-term investment or gains?” If I have a 5-year-old or a 6-year-old, 7-year-old, they’re in private school and I put money in and then I turn around and take that money and spend it for that education, what’s the point without the gains? And really, the value, Tim — correct me if I’m wrong — would be on the state income tax deduction, right? You’re essentially passing it through, taking advantage of that state income tax deduction. And then of course if there is any time period of growth, you’re going to get some of that growth as well. But is that the main benefit of that type of approach?

Tim Baker: So if you live in the state of Ohio and you know that you’re going to have $10,000 in private school costs, you could put that money in, that $10,000 in, and then at least in the state of Ohio, I think it’s — what is it? $4,200 per kid. So you could at least take that off. So if you make $100,000 that Ohio recognizes income and you basically use it as a pass-through, so it goes right into that account and then you take it out and now the state of Ohio sees that you made $97,400 if I did my math right. Yeah. So $95,400. So the idea is that you use that as a gateway to lower your state income tax. So you’re not really getting any growth at all. It’s just a way to basically contribute, get the deduction, and then use those in more of the near term. It’s the same thing like you could argue with an HSA.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: So the beauty of the HSA is that you can put those dollars in there. So if you put $2,000 into an HSA and then you use it right away, you’re not really getting any growth or tax-free growth on the accumulation of the asset, but you are getting the reduction on your federal and state income in that regard, which can be very beneficial. So and that’s the dynamic that has changed recently under the Trump administration where it wasn’t there before. It’s a great benefit, especially for those individuals that are sending their kids to private school K-12.

Tim Ulbrich: I’m still waiting for them to add the homeschool provisions, by the way.

Tim Baker: Yeah, that keeps getting cut out. And typically at the last minute too.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I’ve got to dust off my lobbying skills. So get down at the statehouse. So some of the disadvantages I think about, you mentioned one of these with the 529. If it’s not used for educational expenses, which it has been broadened out as you alluded to, 10% penalty and tax on the earnings portion of that investment. Other things that come to mind here, Tim, would be as you’ve alluded to, not all 529s are created equal. So they’re based in different states. And this is where you hear folks say, x state’s 529 is the best one. So is it fees? Is it investment choices? Is it flexibility? Like what are the differences that we see in terms of state 529 offerings?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so like unlike some of these other accounts like the Coverdell and the UGMA/UTMA, the 529s are typically administered by the state. So the 529 will say, “Hey, Fidelity or Vanguard or American Funds, we’re hiring you to take care of our state’s 529.” So just like different custodians and institutions, they’re going to charge different fees and have different investments, the same kind of flows through to the 529. And it’s the same with the 401k and the 403b. So some companies will hire companies that are really efficient. So they’ll have good investment selection and cheaper fees. And some where that is not the case at all. Now, sometimes it’s inconsequential because even if the 529 is not great, the state tax deduction is such that it does make sense to pay the lesser fees to get the tax break. But that’s not always the case. And then there’s some states like North Carolina, they don’t care. Like they don’t have any benefit at all. What you essentially want to do is go out and find the state with the best 529 plan, which is often like Nevada’s typically at the top of the list of — the Nevada 529 because theirs is run by Vanguard. It’s typically lower fees and things like that. So a lot of it goes to fees, a lot of it goes to kind of investment selection that is really the driver of like, what constitutes a good 529 plan and what constitutes a not-so-good 529?

Tim Ulbrich: So I don’t want to spend as much time here, but just high level overview of the Coverdell education saving account, the UGMA, UTMA accounts, what are the main differences of those accounts from the 529s?
Tim Baker: Yeah, and to be honest, Tim, like I’ve seen this with clients. I can probably count on my hands how many times I’ve seen these accounts. So these are both custodial accounts, basically like self-directed. So where I was describing with the 529s are kind of administered by the states, you would just go to a financial advisor or even yourself, work with a banker or custodian, and you would say, “Hey, I want to open these up for the benefit of my kiddo.” So if we start with the UGMA/UTMA, these are just really trust accounts that you invest — basically you help invest a child’s money until they can take over it. So it’s owned by the child, but they don’t necessarily have control of it until they’ve reached the age of majority, which for every state it’s going to be different. So that can range anywhere from 18 years old to 25, depending on the state. So these accounts, what you contribute as the parent or the grandparent or whatever, it’s an irrevocable gift that basically means you can’t — there’s no takebacksies. So you give it and then you have no more control of that asset. So in a lot of ways, you’re kind of bound by the gift taxing limits. So these, you typically see these with very wealthy people that are trying to like spend down their estate so they’re not hit with a crazy estate tax. There’s not a whole lot of like tax benefit. So like if you put $10,000 and it grows to $20,000 for that child, they’re paying $10,000 in capital gains. And this could negatively affect the financial aid of the child because the asset is owned by the child. So I don’t really see these much because of the advent of like things like the 529. The other big thing is that I don’t think — then you can use it anything. So if Johnny reaches 18 and he’s like, I don’t want to go off to college and that’s what this money’s for, but I think he can spend it on whatever he wants. So he’s not bound by the education. The Coverdell, these used to be called Education IRAs. The name was changed. These contributions are not tax-deductible, but it does grow tax-free. So they’re very much like Roth IRAs in that the gains are tax-free and they’re self-directed versus state-directed. So you know, they’re — and the withdrawals are tax-free if used for those qualified education expenses, which are also K-12. So this was even before the 529, that was a thing, the Coverdell did have that. But the big downsides for these is that you can really only put $2,000 a year per student. So it’s very low contribution limits. And then you typically phase out like once you reach $220,000 as a married filing jointly or $110,000 as a single taxpayer, you can’t contribute to the Coverdell at all. So for many pharmacists, you know, you’re very quickly kind of out of that, especially if you have dual income. So I don’t really see these anywhere. I mean, I think primarily I see people save for their kids’ education either in a 529, a Roth IRA, a brokerage account, or I’ve even seen some people do it with real estate, which is an interesting concept as well.

Tim Ulbrich: What would be the advantage of a brokerage account? I want to get to the Roth here in a moment, but these ones, we’re obviously talking about some tax advantages that can be associated with them. So what would be the thinking of a brokerage account as a primary vehicle?

Tim Baker: I think for a lot of people, it’s just — it’s that perceived flexibility, which is there. But I think from a Roth, like you can take whatever you contribute to a Roth out any time penalty-free. Tax- and penalty-free. So that’s one thing that a lot of people don’t understand is that if you contribute, you can take that basis out of the Roth IRA. It’s when you start getting into the earnings, that’s when you get into the penalties. So I think for a lot of people, it’s kind of that idea of just flexibility. The problem is that once you start adding up — like if you’re saving for Jane and Johnny’s college over the course of 20 years or so, you could see real capital gains tax there.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: Hopefully they’re long term capital gains so they’re taxed at a preferred maybe 15% versus a 22%, 25%, 30%. But that’s still money that you have to account for when you’re going to use that for education. So again, I like the 529. It’s not investment advice. I think for a lot of people it makes sense because of the flexibility that you can — you know, if one kid doesn’t use it, you can give it to the next one. It’s just my kind of go-to.

Tim Ulbrich: Speaking of flexibility, one of the things that I’ve thought of that I want to get your input on — I suspect our listeners may have as well — is the Roth IRA as an option for thinking of saving for educational expenses with the understanding that qualified educational expenses are an exception to the early withdrawal penalty and as you mentioned, the basis or the amount that you put in a Roth can be pulled tax-free without penalty at any point. So talk us through that strategy. I think of something like a Roth versus a 529, perhaps more investment options, perhaps an option to keep fees down depending on what you have in the 529, the idea that if Johnny and Suzy decide not to go to college and I don’t have anyone else to transfer it, I can continue those savings on for retirement. Downsides of course would be of maybe we’re not using that as the primary or one of the primary vehicles for retirement and savings. So where does that fit in in terms of strategy of folks when you’re thinking about where a Roth may or may not fit relative to the 529 specifically?

Tim Baker: Yeah, I mean, I’d probably default more so to the 529 first, at least get the state tax deduction. But there’s some people that are just like, I want to really use — because that is one of the exceptions in the IRAs that you can for higher education expenses and I think it’s cap, I don’t know if it’s the same for first-time home buyers, if it’s $10,000. I’d have to look that up. But I think it is. I don’t know, I think we talk about accounts like the HSA that has this dual purpose. But sometimes when you have a dual purpose, you have no purpose. It’s almost like when you have two quarterbacks, right? So for like the Roth IRA, like I look at that as a retirement account, not an education account. But it could very much be used as such. I think that yeah, to your point, is there more flexibility in an IRA versus like a 529? Absolutely. Is it even cheaper? Yeah, potentially. But I think that where the 529 is going — and I think you can have both, really. Some people will never reach their state’s benefit in terms of what the state tax deduction would be. But yeah, I think this is more of a conversation for clients that don’t have that benefit, like I said, North Carolina where the Roth is — or even the brokerage account, but I would probably say the Roth first would be the first avenue. So you know, I kind of, again, default rightly or wrongly to the 529. But I think the Roth can be a viable way to at least put some dollars aside for that purpose.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I like the thought on the 529 for the state income tax deduction. Maybe you build it from there, maybe you look at a Roth. The other thing, which I think goes without saying, is that if there is a way to earmark your Roth specifically for long-term retirement savings and still contribute to a 529, we can let that money continue to grow as you say on repeat on this show, it’s time in the market that matters, right? So if we can not have to pull that out for college expenses and let it continue to grow, obviously we’re going to reap the benefits of that compound interest. Last question I have for you, Tim, as we wrap up this discussion on kids’ college and savings: One of the thoughts that I have is coming out, I’ve talked about my story and journey on this show many times before, but I suspect for many other pharmacists that have six figures or more of debt, is there a tendency for folks to overcompensate for kids’ college savings at the expense of other areas of their financial plan, specifically for those that have come out with very high debt loads and because of that experience, might lean in that direction of hey, I don’t want my child to have to go through it, at the expense of their own retirement, at the expense of other financial goals that we might traditionally think come before kids’ college? Is that something you see among clients?

Tim Baker: I think that yes, I do. But I also see like a bit of every kind of approach on the spectrum where it’s like, I don’t ever want my child to ever have to go through this again or go through what I went through. But there’s also like some of it like I went through it, so they have to go through it. And then there’s some reservation of like, just because my loans are so bad, I don’t think I’m going to be in a position to help them.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Tim Baker: Sometimes there is kind of the reaction, you know, equal and opposite reaction type of approach. But it’s all over the place. And I think for the most part, the default has often been I want to help my kids as much as I can, but I also need to make sure that I’m taking care of myself. And I wouldn’t say it’s uncommon, but you know, there have been not as many conversations as you would think where I’m saying like, we have to pull that back. So you know, one of the things that we do as part of the goal setting here is how do we want to go about funding this? And there’s a lot of different approaches where you can plan for 100% or you can plan for something that’s a lot less than that and feel good about that as part of your financial plan. So yeah, it is all over the board. But I think there are sometimes is a push to kind of overcompensate for that or some just like, hey, I had to deal with having to find my way.

Tim Ulbrich: Good luck.

Tim Baker: They do too. Yep. Yep.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff, as always, Tim. And to those listening and college savings may be on your mind of one of many financial goals that you’re trying to work through, we’d love to have a conversation with you about the comprehensive planning services that we offer at YFP Planning. Now serving more than 200 households across 40+ states of the country. Our team is well versed in this topic among other parts of the financial plan. And you can go to YFPPlanning.com, book a free discovery call to see if our services are a good fit for you. And as always, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, please do us a favor and leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show, which helps other folks find out about the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast.

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YFP 192: Findings from the 2021 Pharmacist Salary Guide

Posted on by yfpadmin

Findings from the 2021 Pharmacist Salary Guide

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Alex Barker, founder of The Happy PharmD, joins Tim Ulbrich to discuss takeaways from the 2021 Pharmacist Salary Guide, including the current state of the job market, trends in salary and compensation, and contributors to job stress and dissatisfaction.

About Today’s Guest

Alex Barker is a pharmacist, entrepreneur, author, and creator of The Happy PharmD and the Happy PharmD Summit.

Summary

Alex Barker, founder of The Happy PharmD, breaks down the 2021 Pharmacist Salary Guide, a helpful resource for pharmacists to understand trends in salary, the job market, and job satisfaction and stress. Alex and his team gathered data from multiple sources and reports to help share trends about the pharmacy job market. Alex shares that pharmacists are still well paid, earn a salary in the six-figure range, and are seeing a small increase in pay, however there are trends that pharmacists should be aware of when it comes to salary changes.

Alex first digs into the low ceiling pharmacists have on their salary. While pharmacists are very well paid when just getting out of college, especially when compared to other similar professions, after 20 years they may only see an additional $12,000 added on to their salary even if their job performance exceeds expectations. Some salary starting numbers may be even lower and it is difficult to work your way up to a top tier salary. He discusses that pay is based on what type of pharmacist position you hold. The highest paid positions are in management, pharma, and nuclear pharmacy, however a small percentage of pharmacists hold those types of positions.

He explains that the reason for such a small increase in pay is due to a ‘perfect storm’ he’s seeing in the pharmacy job market. Alex describes that due to the supply and demand of pharmacists, this perfect storm has been created: 13,000-14,000 pharmacists graduate each year, ⅓ of current pharmacists (~100,000) are looking for a new job, and a negative job growth is predicted due to the oversupply of pharmacists (321,000 jobs decrease to 311,200). Because of this, it’s important to consider your career trajectory. Alex also talks about satisfaction and job stress and Job Rx, a new job board that pulls open pharmacy positions from employment sites.

Click here to download a free copy of the 2021 Pharmacist Salary Guide.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Alex, welcome to the show.

Alex Barker: Thanks for having me, Tim. I enjoy hanging out with you.

Tim Ulbrich: It’s been awhile, specifically Episode 092 when we talked about creating an indispensable pharmacy career all the way back in March of 2019. But for those in our audience that may not know you, I know many folks do know you and the work that you’re doing with the Happy PharmD. But tell us a little bit about your pharmacy career and the work that you are currently doing with the Happy PharmD.

Alex Barker: Happy to, but first I want to acknowledge — was it Episode 092?

Tim Ulbrich: 092.

Alex Barker: So you had me on 100 episodes later.

Tim Ulbrich: Nailed it.

Alex Barker: Wow, good job.

Tim Ulbrich: That was planned. No, I’m just kidding. It wasn’t.

Alex Barker: Yeah, so I’m Alex Barker. I’m a pharmacist. I graduated in 2012, did a residency, went into clinical practice, did not enjoy myself and struggled to find my way with my career. That led me to business, led me to coaching people, led me to creating a few other media companies and other crazy, random ideas. And then I saw, unfortunately, the need of our profession. A lot of people are burned out, a lot of people are unhappy, unfulfilled in their positions. So I took coaching along with our profession and kind of married it into this Happy PharmD where we help pharmacists and coach them into better careers and jobs, doing that since 2017 now.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Alex Barker: We’ve got — yeah, it’s crazy.

Tim Ulbrich: It is.

Alex Barker: If it was back in 2019 that I was last here, I think we only had maybe four coaches including myself. We now have 11. And we have an awesome team, support team, we’re doing research. Lots of crazy stuff. And a good colleague of yours now is our lead coach, Jackie Boyle.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Alex Barker: Who is at NEOMed in Ohio. So yeah. That’s what we do here at the Happy PharmD. And I know why you brought me on was to go over trends and what’s going on in the job market and specifically in pharmacists’ salaries. So, happy to be here.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. And for those that are not familiar, make sure you check it out, TheHappyPharmD.com. We’ll link to it in the show notes. And Alex, as you mentioned, today is a topic that I know is of interest to our community, one that I enjoy talking about on the show as well as our folks are certainly interested. What’s happening in the job market? What’s happening with the current state of jobs? And you have an incredible annual salary guide of which we will link to in the show notes and I mentioned in the introduction that distills data about pharmacist salaries, salary changes, job stress, job satisfaction, and overall the pharmacy job market. And one of the things you talk about in there, which we’ll get to towards the end of the show is the perfect storm and what that means as it relates to where we are as a profession. So you’ve been doing this now for several years, is that right, Alex? The salary guide?

Alex Barker: Since 2015, which meant we were looking at 2014 data. So yes, we’ve been doing this many, many years. We have a lot of data, and it’s — frankly, it’s all over the place. It’s a little frustrating. But we’ve got a good — you’ll be able to see in charts and graphs, you’ll be able to compare yourself to others. I’d recommend you look at yourself where you’re at rather than the trends as a whole, but we can dive into those here. Where would you like to hit first?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, so my first question, Alex, is there’s other resources out there, you know, a couple that come to mind, several state associations do this, I know we do here in Ohio, there’s the Pharmacy Workforce Survey, which I believe happens every five years, one published last year. So what’s the need for this? Tell me more about why you felt like there was a gap and an opportunity to fill that gap with this resource.

Alex Barker: So one of the things that I like to do whenever I’m looking at a complex problem is multiple resources. You know what, that’s not really unique. I think every pharmacist does that, especially when we’re researching a disease state or a new drug. We’ve got to have the whole picture, right? And one of the things that frustrated me about the multiple reports were the indiscrepancies and the different numbers. So I didn’t really see anyone else putting all of this information together in one place. So that’s why I started way back in 2015 working on this report. I think I published it originally on Pharmacy Times. And we had since now put it on our website because obviously we weren’t around in 2015. I like looking at seeing multiple sources of data, multiple reports, to see and to look for those trends. Right? Because I think we all have hearsay and, you know, secondhand stories of —

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Alex Barker — what’s happening in the job market. And there is some truth to that. And then we actually have some solid data for some of those hearsay stories. But overall, we can say that pharmacists are still well paid. We’re still in the six-figure range. We are continuing to see a very small overall increase in our pay, albeit that it is very slow and it is slower in comparison to the majority of other health professions. But we are seeing some trends that we should all be aware of when it comes to salary changes.

Tim Ulbrich: And Alex, one of those that you talk about in the guide that I know is something that is of interest to me and the financial plan because these topics are very connected I think for obvious reasons is that when it comes to pharmacist’s salary, of course we’d expect to see some difference based on experience, depending on areas of practice of which we can dig into further. But one of the things you mentioned is that there’s an extremely low ceiling for pharmacists. And this is one of those things — speaking of hearsay — that I have always thought is of course varies based on positions and we know that some areas, there’s more long-term upside and maybe some longer term growth opportunities, but for many pharmacists, outside of cost of living adjustments, if that sometimes, that there’s a relatively low ceiling of where you start, which is a great blessing, may not be too far off from where you end. And you know, that matters for a whole lot of reasons when we talk about the financial plan. So give me your read on that. You know, tell us more about what you’ve found and why is that so significant?

Alex Barker: We should be well aware as pharmacists, we are very well paid for just getting out of college. If you compare our education, the length of it as well as the job market and compare it to other similar professions, we are more likely to be paid higher. So according to a report by Pay Scale, which was the only one, unfortunately, that looked at years of experience with an annual average wage, you’re looking at about $113,000 is the average starting salary for less than years experience, which is, I mean, insane. If you told that to a high schooler, you’d get their ears to perk up.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Alex Barker: However, if you add on years of experience, so if you work in the profession 20+ years, according to this report, you’re only adding about $12,000 more per year to your salary, which I never realized that when I went through education. I never had my eyes open to that problem, but like that should be a sinking feeling that it doesn’t really matter how much harder you work, it doesn’t matter how long you work with a company, chances are your salary will not increase. In fact, for an institution I worked for, it was very clear that after a certain amount of time, years of experience, that my salary would increase incrementally up to a point. And then at that point, I was locked at the rate at which, you know, the cost of living increases, which in my area, is very low. So —

Tim Ulbrich: Regardless of performance, regardless of performance, right?

Alex Barker: Right. Right. And I would not say that I was an above-average pharmacist. I would say that I was just kind of in the middle. And it didn’t matter. And what made me the most frustrated was that finding out the amount of money that people got for doing insanely well. We had a few amazing pharmacists on our team. They worked really, really hard. And I found out that their — when they exceeded expectations was the measure that they had to get in their annual review, that when they got that, it equated to about $1,500. $1,500. And if you take that, you divide it by the hours that you work, I mean, it isn’t worth it. It isn’t worth it at all to even try harder. And so what we’ve kind of created, unfortunately, in this perfect storm, one factor of it is we have a profession where we are not rewarded for effort. And that’s disconcerting. It creates complacency, I would say for sure. I mean, it did within me when I was a clinician.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think especially at a time where you and I both know, we need some innovation, we need some risk-taking, we need some great ideas coming forward. And you know, compensation of course isn’t the only way that’s going to drive that. But certainly, you know, a low ceiling, as you mentioned in the report, may subtly not encourage high performance. And I think that’s a noteworthy thing. And of course, it goes without saying, we’re generalizing here. As you look at this data across the profession, there are certainly areas of the profession where there’s more upward mobility, I would use management/admin type of positions on the health systems side as one example. But there are certainly others. And of course when it comes to the financial plan, what screams to me here, Alex, is that you have to if this is going to be true for your career and the trajectory, you have to be that much more diligent about the financial plan from Day 1. Right? Because naturally what happens is expenses are going to go up if we let them. And so over time, if expenses go up proportionally but salaries do not, we’ve got a problem in terms of being able to achieve all the financial goals that we do. Another way of looking at this if we want to be a little bit more half-glass full is that you do have a great salary at a very young age coming out of school. And if you’re able to keep those expenses down, you’ve got a long trajectory where that money can be saved, you can have compound growth and other things where other professions, while there might be more upwards trajectory, it might take them longer to get to a point of savings. But of course, we haven’t talked about the $175k of debt that our graduates are taking on. Separate story for another day. So when we look at the pharmacist’s salary based on job sector, we know that there are a lot of avenues pharmacists can take in their pharmacy profession throughout their career. So tell us a little bit more about the variation you see in terms of jobs that have higher salary ranges, jobs that have lower salary ranges.

Alex Barker: I don’t think people will be too surprised, but perhaps maybe by the amount. So based on where people are working and the kind of job that they’re working, which by the way — don’t try to do this yourself, OK? Don’t go to look at all these reports because they call pharmacists by different names. I mean, the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which is a U.S. government organization, defines one of our professions as working at food and beverage stores. Tim, I’ll be honest, I don’t know what a food and beverage store is. It’s not a gas station. And they already have general merchandise stores and pharmacies and drug stores. So maybe I’m missing — I live in Michigan, so I haven’t been all over the world. I don’t know what this is. So where are the great paying jobs? Like you said, it comes down to management jobs, they are clearly paid more. We’re looking at ranges anywhere from $15,000 to even $25,000 more. We know that pharma jobs, particularly higher management jobs, pay extremely well. Nuclear pharmacist is one of the top-paying patient care jobs. JobRx reported that their average was at $157,000, which is very, very high. And again, we’re also seeing similar trends that where there is more responsibility, so more prescribing ability, we see pharmacists being paid higher, so clinical pharmacist roles, whereas where we’ve seen the lowest paid pharmacists, we’re seeing those typically in mail-order and PBMs. We’re seeing it in medical marijuana places, mail pharmacies. And as everyone would expect, we are seeing lower salaries, trending downward, in chains and of course independents, long-term care. Now, to clarify, everyone’s got opinions on these things. ‘Oh, well, I know of this person who got this. And I’m paid this.’ It’s trends. We have to keep all of this with a grain of salt because the reporting from each of these sources varies greatly. So I’m herding cats here, and I’m just telling you about my experience with it, OK? It’s challenging.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure. And it’s a good point, I mean, I hope our listeners will take it with a grain of salt. But it’s a great opportunity to see what’s out there. And what’s of concern to me, Alex, is I’m thinking of the distribution of pharmacists by practice, and that first group that you mentioned, management/admin positions, industry and nuclear pharmacy I think were the three you mentioned, that is a small sliver of the pie. Right? The bigger chunk of the pie is the community positions, is the managed care positions. And so I think it is something that we have to consider and we have to take seriously in terms of the significance. Now, hearsay — speaking of hearsay — one thing I have heard that I think is easy for us to hear and say, “Oh my gosh, the salaries of pharmacists, it’s falling apart,” and that is the instances of somebody starting at $35 an hour, $40 an hour, you know, and is it because of a saturated market? Is it because of this or that? Are they perhaps part-time? You know, 32 is kind of the new normal, what we’ve seen here in Ohio. Tell us more, give us the data. What are you actually seeing when it comes to these numbers of, “Hey, I’m starting at $35 or $40.” Is this isolated? Is it more widespread?

Alex Barker: Hearing you say that makes me feel like maybe I’m the one that needs to collect those reports and that data because no one is. You’re right, it’s all anecdotal. I’ve seen it in your Facebook group, I’ve seen people report some of the offers that they’re getting. It’s abysmal. The worst I have heard is $28 an hour. That’s a floating position. I think it was in Austin, Texas or one of the major cities in Texas. And we know that these typically are retail chain positions that are offering these insanely low salaries. We also do have reports of it happening as well in hospital positions. And we also know that there are a few remote clinical positions that are very low as well. And so we’re talking like MTM jobs where you’ve got a lot of flexibility. You work when you want to. But you’re looking at an annual salary of maybe $70,000-80,000. That’s not true across the board, but that’s what we are receiving reports from from the people that get jobs because occasionally, we do salary negotiations for people as well. But the only evidence we have as far as an actual report that’s been shown that I enjoyed seeing this year was drug topics. So if you look at their 2020 base salary, you see this very concerning skew of data — and I’ll send you a picture of this as well so you can put it in the podcast notes if you can do that, I don’t know — but you’ll see that 13%, which is a huge number of people, at the end of their report were receiving less than $70,000 a year or less. And unfortunately, what they didn’t report in this data is the number of people in that bracket who were full-time or part-time. But we do know that the total amount of people was only 13% as well that worked part-time. So I’d have to venture a guess that that 13% that worked part-time, you know, potentially were majorly in that bracket of 13% reporting that, I don’t know. But unfortunately, what we are seeing is because of the glut, because of how easy it is to hire a pharmacist, particularly in a very generic role, we are seeing a lower salary being offered to those pharmacists. And we — based on what we just talked about, that low ceiling, you should assume that you will not — you’re not going to work your way to the top tier salary, $120,000-140,000 if you’re being started at $70,000 annual.

Tim Ulbrich: And where you start matters for obvious reasons. It matters when you’ve got $175,000 of student loan debt, it matters when hopefully if you have something like an employer retirement match, you know, 4% of $70,000 versus 4% of $120,000, that matters over time and compound interest and growth. So question for you here — and I know this is more complicated than we have time to unravel, but what’s the reason? You know, is it simply that we’ve got supply and demand, we’ve got 13,000+ grads coming out per year, pharmacists aren’t retiring at the rate that we thought they may. Is it more about the evolution of the pharmacist’s role and we’re seeing faulty business models and not only those that are being strained financially from existing models but new, innovative ones not popping up that can just find new positions? Like what do you see as the main culprit here?

Alex Barker: Supply and demand. I am not a labor or economics expert.

Tim Ulbrich: Come on, Alex! No, I’m just kidding.

Alex Barker: I did consider getting a PhD once, but no. Not my thing.

Tim Ulbrich: And then you saw the light.

Alex Barker: I did. But now what we have is this perfect storm, as I alluded to in further of our salary guide. The perfect storm is approximately 13,000-14,000 pharmacy students graduating every year entering into the job market, approximately one-third of the current job market — so about 100,000 pharmacists — is looking for a new job — and that’s based off of the AACP national workforce study — and then we also have the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics predicting a negative job growth from 321,000 to I think it’s like 311,000.

Tim Ulbrich: Correct.

Alex Barker: So by the way, if numbers confuse you, if I’m saying a lot of numbers, check out the report. It’s all there. Because if I was listening to this, I’d be like, what did he just say? But you’ve got this gestalt of a problem where each factor is creating a much more complex issue. But ultimately, what we have is the main positions that pharmacists take, i.e. hospitals and community pharmacy, and we’re a dime a dozen. I asked on LinkedIn managers, approximately how many applications do you get per job? And it was anywhere from 60 on the low end to I think the highest was over 210. And so if you are a smart manager, you are going to think what is my biggest cost? Employees. So if I have that many people, am I going to give them a compelling offer when if I don’t get my top pick, I probably will get my second, third, fourth, fifth —

Tim Ulbrich: Who are all pretty darn good.

Alex Barker: Maybe even my 15th pick.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Alex Barker: Because someone’s going to take this offer. Right? We’re pharmacists, we have a PharmD, we’re doctorates, we’re insanely capable people. So you know, getting your 15th pick isn’t the worst thing in the world for them. For our profession, however, what suffers ultimately is our salary, our buying power. We no longer have that. And back in the 2000s, we had that inflated need, right? We needed pharmacists. You got signing bonuses, you got cars when you got offered a job. I don’t know if students are told that anymore, but that’s the way it was. And now, everything’s flipped on its head. We’re in the exact opposite situation, albeit that there is a huge hiring phase happening right now simply because of the COVID jobs.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Alex Barker: We’re seeing a ton of people readily take those. But these pharmacists are just probably going to be in the same situation once this vaccination rush passes through. It isn’t like we’re going to need all those pharmacists again to vaccinate every single year. They’re going to figure out cheaper ways. And everyone knows you can pay a nurse a lot less to vaccinate people. So this temporary demand is not going to last.

Tim Ulbrich: Now, I am — and I’m be remiss if I didn’t say, Alex, my audience knows this — I am a half-glass full type of person. And I will say the one thing — and it does not mitigate the concerns here — but the one thing that stands out to me here is, as I alluded to early today, I do think we desperately need some innovation, thinking a little bit differently, people taking calculated risk. And when you’ve got $175,000 of student loan debt and you have $120,000 contract that’s there to sign, it’s very hard to make an otherwise decision, right? I mean, it’s classic golden handcuffs situation. And I do think there’s a lot of pharmacists out there that have great ideas. And one of the reasons we’re so passionate about the financial plan side of it is that we know the financial pressures are very much connected to the career opportunities, the willingness to do either, whether it’s starting something or even just enjoying the work that you do and having some choice. So I am hopeful. I am also concerned that lower salary and a debt load that continues to climb is a compound problem. But there is also perhaps an opportunity out there where folks may now say, “OK, I can make $70,000, or I might go do this.” And that, “I might go do this,” might be something that’s of perhaps more interest or even an opportunity to pursue.

Alex Barker: You bring up a really good point that I didn’t consider in writing this guide is particularly for new grads, considering your career trajectory is insanely important for determining your financial plan because if you think right now that now’s a good time to be a clinician, trends are showing that clinicians, people who are able to prescribe or have some sort of agreement with a doctor, those jobs, we’re not seeing a major increase in those salaries. In fact, we’re seeing students — or I should say residents being offered less and less money. So you know, if you think you’re wanting to make a lot of money later in your career and you’re willing to work up to that, there are plenty of opportunities out there. We didn’t even go over the fact that as a pharmacist, you’re more than qualified to be a pharmaceutical sales rep. And that has an amazingly high ceiling. You could be paid insanely well. It is not a pharmacist job. It’s not a typical one. But you are overqualified to do it, and if you have the ability, if you have those natural gifts to sell, the ceiling’s really high. And so I think — you know, this is something I didn’t consider, so I’m glad you brought it up, Tim — that when considering your financial future, there is a space for you to take a job that pays you less if the trajectory, if the potential plan of that path could pay you a whole lot more because the reality is that as a clinician, your salary is not going to dramatically increase. One minor report that I didn’t touch on in my report is that Drug Topics said 41%, but in their report reported additional income in 2020, anywhere from the majority of them making around $1,000-5,000 in extra income. Now, they didn’t say how they made that money, but the case is that people, they want to make more. They’ve got things to do with that money.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Alex Barker: So consider your career trajectory wisely. If you’re looking at the $175,000 and thinking, I need to pay this all down, you know, don’t make the mistake of rushing into a job that just pays well but is a dead end.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right. Yep.

Alex Barker: That’s just a risk to take.

Tim Ulbrich: Got to think about the 30- to 40-year timeline. And here, we’re talking salary, which is one component but certainly not the only, right? We could have a pharmacist who’s got multiple job offers, is making great money, but they may not like the work that they’re doing or it may be stressful. So talk to us about satisfaction, job stress. Obviously we know job stress correlates to the rate of dissatisfaction that pharmacists are feeling in their work. What did you find here in the reports as far as the number of pharmacists, percentage of pharmacists generally speaking that are either satisfied/dissatisfied in their work and tell us more about those findings.

Alex Barker: Your term earlier, golden handcuffs, I think captures the feeling that most have. According to Drug Topics, they reported 44% are unhappy with their jobs. But a third of the entire group that they surveyed was looking for another job because of their unhappiness with their current one. I think they asked some wrong questions in their survey, but in my interpretation, we’re looking at 7 out of 10 pharmacists were not satisfied with their jobs. And we all practically I think know the reasons why pharmacists are unhappy across the board. But there are some other reports that show that we actually have a higher satisfaction score than that. Pay Scale said that we’re about 74% satisfied, which was higher than what I thought. AACP said 58%. But the pharmacists that were the most happy were those that were in independent community pharmacies, ambulatory care, or non-patient care, which kind of goes back to our problem — you and I have talked about this numerous times. We as pharmacists, we’ve got an identity crisis. If we’re supposed to be patient care-oriented, then why are people who are not in patient care more happy than those that are in patient care. Another survey question in that AACP report was that only 27% of people said — agreed to the statement, “I feel happy at work.” Grinds my gears. I’m supposed to be the Happy Pharmacist, but I’m not happy about that.

Tim Ulbrich: I mean, it’s heavy. And you know, again, this goes back to your comment — I hope the new practitioners and even the students listening are really thinking about the long horizon and trajectory. And this again goes back to me — for me, obviously, the financial plan and cost of living. If you rise your cost of living and everything that comes with it right out of the gates because you’re now going from -30 and debt every year to make $110,000 or $120,000, it is very hard to walk that back. Very hard to walk that back. And if you can hold the line — and I understand certainly this is easier for me to say in Ohio or you to say up in Michigan that may not be as easy for folks that are in higher cost of living areas. But if you can hold that line, especially as you’re going through this transitionary period where you’ve got multiple competing financial priorities, you’ve got typically big student debt loads, you’re trying to really understand what you do or do not like in the work that you’re doing, give yourself options. You know, we talk about all the time, put yourself in the driver seat rather than that being dictated for you. And I think, of course, this discussion certainly emphasizes that as well. Alex, I want to wrap up, you mentioned earlier in the episode talking about the Job Rx. Tell us more about Job Rx. You talk about that in the guide as well. What is Job Rx? And what can folks expect to get from that resource?

Alex Barker: Yeah, Job Rx is a website from a friend of mine, mutual friend of yours, Kevin Miro (?). And I included in this report simply because of some of this newer data that he’s been finding in his job board. If you look at the powers that be, there is a pharmacy demand report, which stated in the 4th quarter of 2020, only 12,000 new pharmacist jobs were created, which is not great but not awful either, which you know, kind of just makes me think like OK, doing the numbers in my head, it makes sense why we’re getting 100 applications per job. But Job Rx is — essentially, it’s a job board where it pulls in all these jobs from employers’ websites into one place so you can apply and get notified when the newest jobs are created. He reported to me that in December of 2020, they added 12,800 pharmacist jobs in one month versus this other demand report that said that that’s how many jobs were created over the entire quarter. This gave me a lot more hope than I’ve ever had before because I’ve never been able to have access to that kind of information or technology that says OK, what exactly is the job reports and how are you getting that data? He also — and I share this in the report as well — that 16,000 pharmacist jobs were added in January of 2021. So when I hear these numbers, I am a lot more hopeful. I do think that they are slightly probably more than what we would expect simply because of the COVID hire push that is going on. But ultimately, this is potentially an amazing resource for pharmacists to finally find the jobs that are out there. And I’ll make one final note that from what I could tell, the vast majority of these jobs, though, were community and health systems-related, long-term care, hospitals, things like that. So right now, I still know that the majority of the buzz, what everyone is selling as the promised land, is the nontraditional roles, right, the pharma, the work-from-home, the remote. And those are still out there, they are possible. But they are certainly not as available as hospital and community jobs.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And our community can check that out, JobRx.com. We’ll link to it in the show notes. I think certainly a resource that’s going to afford us an opportunity to have some more real-time data, some more up-to-date information that I know will be helpful to not only pharmacists looking for positions to perhaps — I often found myself in a faculty administrative role trying to advise and help students looking for jobs. I see some value there as well. So JobRx.com, again, we’ll link to in the show notes. Alex, where is the best place that our community can go to connect with you, to follow the work that you’re doing and to stay up-to-date on information that we’re talking about here today?

Alex Barker: I’d love it if you connect with me on LinkedIn, that’s where I hang out, it’s where I spend the most amount of my time. We do have Instagram and Facebook, but after watching The Social Dilemma, I don’t know. I’m just trying to stay on one and not try to give away too much information about my life. But yeah, connect with me on LinkedIn. I’d love to have a conversation with you and I try to have one with every single person that connects with me. So that would be a great place to check it out. Otherwise, you can go to TheHappyPharmD.com where we’ve got a lot of resources, blogs about career paths and of course this salary guide.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff, Alex. We’ll link to Alex’s LinkedIn profile in the show notes as well as of course TheHappyPharmD.com and the salary guide. Alex, thank you again for joining us and sharing your insights and expertise on this important topic as we talk about the state of the job market and our profession. Appreciate it.

Alex Barker: Thanks, Tim, for having me.

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YFP 191: 10 Common Mortgage Mistakes to Avoid

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10 Common Mortgage Mistakes to Avoid

On this episode sponsored by LendKey, Tony Umholtz, a Mortgage Manager for IBERIABANK/First Horizon joins Tim Ulbrich to discuss 10 common mortgage mistakes homebuyers make and steps you can take to avoid them.

About Today’s Guest

Tony graduated Cum Laude from the University of South Florida with a B.S. in Finance from the Muma College of Business. He then went on to complete his MBA. While at USF, Tony was part of the inaugural football team in 1997. He earned both Academic and AP All-American Honors during his collegiate career. After college, Tony had the opportunity to sign contracts with several NFL teams including the Tennessee Titans, New York Giants and the New England Patriots. Being active in the community is also important to Tony. He has served or serves as a board member for several charitable and non-profit organizations including board member for the Salvation Army, FCA Tampa Bay and the USF National Alumni Association. Having orchestrated over $1.1 billion in lending volume during his career, Tony has consistently been ranked as one of the top mortgage loan officers in the industry by the Scotsman’s Guide, Mortgage Executive magazine and Mortgage Originator magazine.

Summary

Tony Umholtz, a mortgage manager for IBERIABANK/First Horizon, digs into 10 common mortgage mistakes to avoid what he sees people make in the home buying process. The first is not fully understanding in advance the common loan types and considerations or differences of each. Tony breaks down what conventional, FHA, VA, and other unique products, like the pharmacist home loan, are and what borrowers need to be aware of. The second falls into the category of credit blunders, like overestimating your credit score, relying on third-party services (which often provide inaccurate credit scores), utilizing no interest credit cards which could negatively impact your credit, and waiting too long to resolve issues you have with it. The third common mistake is not shopping around for a mortgage lender. Tony expresses that it’s important to find the right product and that some internet-based companies may be great for a mortgage refinance but are hard to work with for a home purchase. The fourth mistake is searching for a house before you get pre-approved. Tony shares that a pre-approval letter shows sellers that you’re serious and can also make you aware of any red flags you may have on your credit report. The fifth is underestimating how much cash you need to close. Tony explains that not only do you need money for a downpayment, but you always need to have money saved for an insurance premium (as well as possible flood insurance coverage), taxes, and closing costs.

The sixth is delayed communications with the lender, title agency, and real estate agents which can make or break a transaction. The seventh is making a home buying decision before you’re ready. Tim shares that you can’t make a decision about any part of your financial plan in a silo and have to consider how each will affect another. Number eight is not thoroughly evaluating how home buying fits in with other financial goals you may have and number nine is not thinking about the money you’ll need after you close for items such as furniture, lawn equipment, etc. The last common mortgage mistake to avoid is misunderstanding or misevaluating mortgage discount points. Tony explains that you should always ask for a no-point quote initially. He shares that points are essentially prepaid interest and that by purchasing a point you’re buying down the interest rate. However, he says that you really have to evaluate this decision and that it’s not always the best move to make.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tony, welcome back on the show.

Tony Umholtz: Tim, thanks for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Excited for this discussion here in 2021 as we have you back, talking about 10 common mortgage mistakes homebuyers make and steps that folks can take to avoid these mistakes. And many of these come from either personal experience or ones that we know are often being made, so we’re going to go through these one-by-one and certainly lean into your expertise to hopefully give folks a guide of what are some things that they can be aware of going into the lending process, whether that’s a first-time home buy, second time, third time, or refinance and then hopefully put in some steps to prevent those from happening in the future. So Tony, the first one I have here that I know often comes up is that folks may not fully understand in advance the common loan types and the considerations and differences for each. And so before we talk about the pharmacist home loan through IBERIABANK/First Horizon aka “the doctor loan,” give us an overview at a high level of conventional, FHA and VA loans as I suspect those are the main ones our community will already have some familiarity with and perhaps some experience with. You know, generally speaking, how do these work? What’s the difference between them? And what are some important considerations for lendees when pursuing these types of loans?

Tony Umholtz: Yeah, sure. Great question. And that’s definitely the most common types of loans that are out there and that you’ll hear about. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, we call them the GSEs, which is Government-Sponsored Entity, they provide conventional financing. And thank God we have them, right? I mean, they really keep our housing market alive. And then we have of course FHA and VA loans, which are backed by — we call it Ginnie Mae, which is HUD, which is also a government program. And those are the main key loans that are out there. There’s also portfolio products, unique, nichey products such as the pharmacist product that we’ve discussed that banks, individual banks, can hold on their balance sheet as well, which don’t have a traditional investor, government-backed sponsors. But not to get too into the weeds here with that, but high level, I would say is conventional products, the main differentiation on that is they will allow a loan amount up to $548,250 in most markets. There is some markets around the country where that’s a higher number. So it’s just around San Francisco, Los Angeles, there’s going to be higher loan limits in certain counties in higher priced areas. But that’s one of the main pieces with them. And a conventional loan above 80% loan-to-value, PMI is required. And that mortgage insurance is required to deliver the loan to Fannie and Freddie. So that’s why it’s so important that you have this mortgage insurance, lenders require it, and that can be costly, right? That can be very costly. FHA and VA — let’s just kind of pull the two apart here — FHA, the Federal Housing Administration loan, is designed for a little bit more flexible credit. Although conventional loans can get pretty low on credit score too, FHA tends to be better if you have lower credit scores because it will allow lower interest rates, for the most part. FHA loans, though, typically don’t have a loan amount max as high as conventional. So for example, if a market’s $548,250 for conventional, it might only be like $325,000 for FHA. So I usually utilize FHA as a last resort, only when it’s the best loan for the client. And then VA of course is for veterans. And the VA loans are great. They allow 100% financing with no PMI. The only downside with VA is there’s a funding fee that’s rather expensive. So I’ve actually had a few veteran clients that we’ve actually gone conventional because it’s cheaper overall. But I could talk a long time on this subject. But hopefully that clarifies the main points.

Tim Ulbrich: Great overview. And to our listeners that want to learn more on each of those, you can check out Episode 169, Tony and I talked through helpful tips for getting a mortgage, going through different loan products, talked about the pharmacist home loan. And tony, we’re going to segue here and talk about that for a moment as I think your discussion on PMI is a good lead-in. And so as we think about the pharmacist home loan, you know, Tony, common barriers to pharmacists being able to purchase a home that I’ve seen is student loan debt, which of course can impact debt-to-income ratio, as well as their ability to save for a down payment. You know, they’re coming out of school, looking to buy a home, six figures or more of debt, and I think that’s where the pharmacist home loan can have its values. Tell us more about the pharmacist home loan option that IBERIABANK/First Horizon has, including minimum down payment, terms, requirements to qualify, PMI considerations and so on.

Tony Umholtz: Sure. The product we offer to pharmacists, it allows very little down payment and there’s no PMI. So it’s probably the key point to it. If you’re a first-time home buyer, you can actually put 3% down and have no mortgage insurance. And if you’ve owned before, it’s 5% down again, with no mortgage insurance. The minimum credit score is 700. And the one piece to this — and again, I don’t — I always try to avoid interest rates because they’re volatile and the market can move, bond market can move, but I have found over the last 18 months that I can offer better rates on this product than if I had a non-pharmacist customer come and put 20% down. I mean, it’s very strong interest rates. So it’s kind of — that’s been the few lead pieces that I’ve noticed. It’s just very strong 30-year fixed loan rates. And that no PMI is just huge. I mean, in some cases if you’re buying a $500,000 home and you’re putting 3% down, you’re talking about a $400 a month savings just for the PMI. So it’s a pretty substantial number. In regards to student loans, it has a — it doesn’t completely waive them. And I find most of my clients that I work with are under an income-based repayment plan anyway. And that’s what we’ll use in calculating a debt-to-income ratio. But in the case where there isn’t a payment, it uses a factor that’s lower than a traditional conventional loan or an FHA loan. So it enables more buying power.

Tim Ulbrich: Very good. And we covered the pharmacist home loan in a fair amount of detail, Episode 139, Ins and Outs of the Pharmacist Home Loan. Also, if you go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com, click at the top “Buy or Refi a Home,” you’ll see more information there to the IBERIABANK/First Horizon product as well as to the real estate concierge, Nate Hedrick, for those that are looking for an agent as well. And we’re excited about the partnership that we have with IBERIABANK/First Horizon because it’s nationwide. And we’ve got a nationwide community here in the YFP community. I have had the chance to work with Tony now for the better part of a year, love what he’s doing, his passion to educate and help folks on this decision and understand how it fits in with the rest of the financial plan. So that’s No. 1, not fully understanding in advance the common loan types and considerations and differences for each. No. 2 here, Tony, is credit blunders. And I’m thinking of those that perhaps may overestimate their credit score or perhaps not have a good understanding of how credit scores impact rates, maybe waiting too long to resolve credit issues and so on. What are some of the common mistakes and blunders that you see related to credit?

Tony Umholtz: The credit and the overestimate — you mentioned overestimating credit. I see that a lot. And you know, I think a couple things I’ll just touch on here with credit. One of the things as a lender, I try not to run credit unless we absolutely have to, right? There’s a lot of clients that’ll call and just want some high level information, but credit is so important because it’s such a critical part of the product. If you have a minimum credit score of 700 and you’re under that, it’s good to know why. And some lenders can — and we offer this service as well — we can give you ideas on how to improve it. We actually have score models that tell us what your score could go to by doing certain activities. But anyway, one of the big blunders I see is just totally following like a third-party monitoring service. And I don’t want to name too many names because there’s a lot of them out there, but traditionally, these third party services are going to overinflate your credit score more than what we would see. You know, like us as a — so for example, a creditor can see a score that is maybe 30 points on average lower than what you might see on one of these services. And I’m even — I subscribe to a service. I will say I do. But it gives me good trends as to what I’m doing, but it’s not what a creditor would see. So in my lifetime of lending, the highest credit score I’ve ever seen was 820, and it was an 80-year-old gentleman who had perfect credit his whole life. So it’s one of those things where, you know, a customer will say, “Hey, my score is 850!” Well, that’s what the monitoring service says, but it’s really not going to be that way when we see it. So that’s one thing, a blunder that I see. The other is a misconception on an inquiry as well. A lot of inquiries is not good. But a couple inquiries at one time for a loan is not going to have an effect on you. There’s a window of time where you can do this. That’s another piece. And then the other really important one — and I can’t stress this one enough — is the no interest for a year type cards and promotions that are out there. And it’s very tempting to go to Best Buy and they’ll offer a $5,000 credit limit for $5,000 worth of stereo equipment and maybe a CD or whatever it might be. And you don’t have to pay interest for two years, which is great, right? It sounds great. But what they do, they report that to the credit bureaus, to Experian, Equifax, and Transunion, as a 100% maxed out credit card. And I’ll confess as a young man, I was in my early 20s, I bought furniture for one of — my first house with a store called Rooms To Go, and I did this. And that’s how I learned. And of course, I’ve seen many clients do this since that time. But it actually happened to me personally. I said, “Wait a minute, why did my credit score go from 750 to 660?” And that was one of the things that happened. I did this credit, you know, it was a maxed-out credit card. That’s how it’s reported to the bureaus. So that’s another big blunder, Tim, that I’ve seen.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and credit — great summary, Tony, great insights there as well. Credit, credit optimization, credit security, such an important part of the financial plan. Obviously we’re talking about here related to securing a mortgage, but generally just an important piece to consider. Tim Baker and I talked about this on Episode 162, Credit 101, talking about what is a credit score, breaking that down, six factors that can impact scores. So if you want more information and better understanding your credit, we’ll link to that episode in the show notes. So that’s No. 2 here, credit blunders. No. 3 is not shopping around. And I know, Tony, that rates, especially in a market where I feel access to information has become easier to find, if you will, that rates may be not necessarily what I’m referring to as much here, although that of course is a consideration. And I think in some cases, if you’ve got good communication with a lender and rates are changing that they’ll be in communication with you. So I think that relationship certainly is important. But obviously we know not all offerings are created equal. So here, we’re talking about the pharmacist home loan. Folks may or may not be aware of that. And so looking at a few different institutions, understanding the products that are out there, but what else, Tony? What are some things that folks may notice beyond the offering and perhaps beyond the rate that would be different from one bank from another? I’m thinking about things like application fees, document fees, other things like that that folks should be thinking about as they shop around.

Tony Umholtz: I really think the — and it can be very challenging sometimes with the shopping around because there’s different levels of knowledge out there. And some of the companies are just set up as call centers as they funnel internet leads in. You know, so there’s different knowledge bases that you’re going to speak to sometimes. So I find that that sometimes adds some confusion. But I think it is very important to find the right product. I think that is very much a critical element, so finding the lender that has the right product for you is important. And I never want to — I’m very sensitive to relationships. So I have people call me and say, “Hey, I have used this lender for 10 years and they’ve always been good to me,” and we’re a competitive industry but sometimes if I think something’s better, I’m very quick to tell that person, “This other lender has a better product.” So I think — and I actually have a lot of lenders that love to send me clients that they know we’re better fitted for. The fee part is important because there’s only really one set of fees the lender controls, and that is there’s a lender portion of fees. The rest are third party. So they’re going to be through third parties. It’s going to be the same, really no matter who they use. So that’s one thing I find that confuses a lot of people is consumers will lump in the prepaid expenses, taxes, insurance, title insurance as well, and doc stamps for the state we’re in or the county recording fees. But those are going to be the same costs no matter what. There’s really only one line item of lender fees that are going to be different, that could vary. So that’s one way to look at the lender is just lender fees and interest rate. Really, it’s as simple as that. But the big things I find when you’re looking, when you’re out there — and again, I’m not going to name names of companies — but when you’re looking to buy a home and you have a — there’s a lot of companies that have popped up, especially internet-based companies that are really just feeding off the refinance market. It’s hard to be equipped for purchases because when you go under contract for a purchase, you have a commitment letter date, right? There’s a commitment financing contingency, there’s appraisal contingency, there’s all these contingencies in a contract, and you want to make sure the lender is watching this and can meet these milestones. A lot of lenders that are set up for refinances just aren’t set up for purchases. It’s OK to use one of these lenders if you can wait 90 or 120 days to close your loan for a refinance, but on a purchase, you can’t do that. So service is very important when you’re buying a home. It still can be with refinancing, but you can always just wait longer, you know? It’s one of those things. But I would just say, you really have to be careful with the service aspect when you’re buying because it’s a very competitive housing market right now, and a lot of these sellers have backup offers. I get calls a lot too because people are under contract and something went wrong with their lender, and I have to jump in sometimes. So I see it even as a secondary lender when things go wrong with the original lender. So I would just say the big thing is a comfort level with that person and that organization. The best rate and product is important too but also making sure that you’re in the best fit for you because one other thing I will say is, you know, if you can get a better rate putting 30% down than you could putting 5% but that’s going to use up all of your liquidity and maybe impact other financial planning aspects of your life, well, the 5% is much better, even if the rate’s a little higher. So I think it’s very important to plan, look at your overall plan. That’s why the folks at YFP are so great to work with because they can look at everything and say, “Hey, this is better for you in the long run because of this.” So I hope that’s helpful. I mean, there’s a lot of components to it. There is a lot of things to think about, but I think it’s really finding a comfort level with the group that you want to work with and especially if you’re buying a home.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. So point No. 3 there, not shopping around, I can speak from personal experience working with more of a big box company, obviously having the opportunity to work with you guys, open communication lines, feeling comfortable with the process, getting questions answered, all of that really matters. No. 4 here is looking mistakes — again, we’re talking about here looking beyond the simple Zillow or Redfin search before you get preapproved and know what you can borrow, which is not necessarily, of course, the same thing as what you can afford, right? We talked about this with Nate Hedrick on the podcast a lot, the Real Estate RPh, what you can borrow, what you get approved from the bank, is not necessarily what you can afford. And that connects, Tony, to what you just said about connecting this home buying decision with the rest of the financial plan. So talk to us here briefly about the importance of the preapproval process.

Tony Umholtz: The preapproval process is critical just to know what you can afford both ways, right? To see if that Redfin search popped up a house that you can’t buy. I’ve also seen it the other way around where, you know, with the rates being so low, clients have said, “Hey, I’m paying $2,900 a month for rent and I can buy more house than I thought I could.” So it’s really just critical in the education process. You know, knowledge is so important. And just knowing what you can and can’t do is important. And the preapproval process will allow us to see if there’s any red flags as well. We’ve had lots of clients that we’ve been able to help get their credit scores up a little bit higher, we’ve had lots of clients that both ways have said, “Hey, I don’t want to buy a home this large because I didn’t realize that this is the cost and the taxes are this.” On the other side, I’ve seen it the other way too, like I mentioned. It’s very important to get pre-approved before you start walking into houses. And I will say that the realtors are very proactive right now because of the tight inventory. We get a lot of phone calls from the listing agents, even. And of course, we can’t give much information away, but they’re calling us, “Hey, are these clients approved?” I mean, it’s a different market in a lot of parts of the country right now.

Tim Ulbrich: That makes sense given where we’re at and the climate of the market. So No. 5 is underestimating the cash to close. So what I’m referring to here, Tony, speaking from personal experience in our first home purchase a little over a decade ago is I think many folks when they’re looking, you know, look at the sale price of the home, they might say, “OK, I’m going to be able to negotiate this or this,” which might be overconfidence, especially depending on what’s happening in the market. And they’re probably thinking about the down payment, whatever that would be, 5%, 10%, 15%, 20% down. But they might not be thinking about other costs that they’re going to need to consider having cash to come to the close. So tell us about not numbers, per se, but what are some of those other things that folks need to be thinking about when it comes to cash to close beyond just the down payment?

Tony Umholtz: One of the big pieces too outside of the down payment is your insurance premium. And insurance is due upfront, full year premium upfront, even if you paid cash, you have to pay for your insurance premium upfront if you want your home insured. And I find that — and this is flood insurance as well if you’re in a flood zone, that’s due as well — but the insurance component is something you have to take into consideration. The other piece outside the down payment is your tax allocation. So normally, lenders will take anywhere from 3-4 months of your property taxes for the escrow account. And for example, the reason for 3-4 months is there’s always a two-month cushion that’s collected. But there’s also, you know, let’s say we were to close today, right, on a house, Feb. 5, your payment is not going to be due — your first payment’s not due until April 1. So we have to collect February and March to be on pace to pay it for you, so we’re going to collect four months of taxes at closing to kind of cushion things. And then of course you have closing costs as well. So there’s a prepaid element and then we have the closing costs. So in addition to the down payment, you have those elements as well. The other thing to keep in mind too that is some confusion that I see a lot with first-time home buyers especially is when you give a deposit on the home, so let’s say when you give your realtor, your realtor goes to help you with the contract, you have to put $5,000 in escrow or deposit — terminology is about the same but different parts of the country call it something differently. That $5,000 gets credited back to you at closing. OK? So it’s a contribution to the overall transaction. It’s not something that you lose or gets lost in any way. It comes back to you. So if your cash to close let’s just say was $10,000, and you’ve already given $5,000, well, you only are going to bring $5,000 to the closing. So that’s another piece just to — questions that come up.

Tim Ulbrich: Very good. And I think the point here I want to make, especially for folks that are on the home buying process for the first time is making sure you’re appropriately considering what might be the cash needed, down payment, closing costs, you mentioned the insurance, the taxes, and some other things as well. So making sure to plan for that in advance and of course thinking about how that impacts other parts of the financial plan. So we’re halfway through our list of 10 common mortgage mistakes to avoid. We’re going to rapid fire these last five. No. 6 here is delayed communications with the lender, title company and agents. Lots of folks involved, Tony, in this process, lots of moving pieces and parts, and I suspect this is the time to overcommunicate and set communication expectations with the team in advance. So talk to us about from your perspective, you know, what you’re expecting of your — obviously your team but also in terms of folks that are working with your team when it comes to communication.

Tony Umholtz: I mean, communication is critical. And that’s what makes the transactions — makes or breaks them in a lot of ways, the communication. So we really try to communicate — overcommunicate with the client. The title companies can be tricky because some of them are, you know, larger, big box, and they’ll just send blanket emails out and it’s hard to get in touch with someone individually. But I think it’s — you know, one of the things that I think is critical is that we know who the realtor is, and we know who the title company is. And then we know the individual in contact. And it usually goes very smoothly if that’s the case. So just having everyone on board. Normally the realtors are very important for us to know because we have to coordinate, we have to give the appraiser their information typically, just to show the house. But yeah, the title company portion is very important, especially as we get closer to closing because the bank or lender’s closing department is going to communicate with them and balance the figures for closing.

Tim Ulbrich: Very good. Yeah. I think with lots of parties involved, communication — always two-way, but making sure that you’re being proactive in that and of course if there’s questions that are outstanding, making sure you’re reaching out and vice versa to stay on time and on track with closing. I’m going to take No. 7, 8 and 9 because they hit home for me personally. And then we’re going to bring back Tony here to talk about No. 10 related to mortgage discount points. No. 7 is making a home buying decision before you are ready just because “rates are good” or because I’m renting and “throwing money down the drain.” Now we’ve talked about this extensively on Episode 113, Is Your Home an Asset or a Liability? We’ve talked about not only the pressures to buy a home but also the costs of home ownership and comparing renting versus buying. And so I would encourage folks, as we say on the show over and over and over again, to avoid the trap of making any financial decision in a silo. So here, if you’re talking with somebody and rates are good or you see commercials about rates or that’s the center of the conversation or somebody says, “Hey, why are you renting? You’re just throwing money down the drain,” now, you may conclude that it is the right time to buy. But the point I’m making here is to take a step back, what else do we have going on in the financial plan, working with hopefully a financial planner to help you evaluate that decision, look at all pieces of the puzzle, and then proceed with the home buying decision and the budget to buy a home if it makes sense in the context of your plan.

And that really is No. 8 in terms of these mistakes is not thoroughly evaluating how home buying fits in with other financial goals. And so I think as we talk about extensively, you know, if you’re looking at six figures of student loan debt, you’re looking at investing goals, you’ve obviously got other competing priorities for your finances, home buying just being one of those, how does it fit in? And of course, YFP Planning, our fee-only comprehensive financial planning team can help that. You can schedule a free discovery call, learn more, at YFPPlanning.com.

No. 9 mistake here is not thinking about available cash post-close. So we talked about how much money you’re going to need to be able to come to closing. But what about things like a rainy day fund to make sure that if something goes wrong in the home? What about things like furnishing the home? What about things like yard equipment? And so thinking about not only the cash that you’re going to need to bring to closing but also do you have some reserves? Do you have some cushion? What will that look like month-to-month as well as some funds that you have in reserves to be able to handle some of those expenses that will inevitably come after you move in?

And Tony here, No. 10 in our list of 10 common mortgage mistakes I think is misunderstanding or evaluating mortgage discount points, especially as folks are comparing rates among institutions or even within a lender. So talk to us exactly about what are discount points? And ultimately, how folks and tips for folks as they’re evaluating discount points as an option.

Tony Umholtz: I would recommend that you always ask for a no-point quote initially because, you know, some lenders will put that into their pricing. It’s funny, even the Freddie Mac that are posted in the Wall Street Journal, they typically have .6% points in the quote. So you know, I always say that if I put that in there, the rate would be even lower. But that’s really the important element is discount points — let me explain what those are. They are actually — it’s defined as prepaid interest. So you’re basically buying down the interest rate and for a finance person, it’s like you’re buying down the bond rate over time by paying the points at a premium. It sometimes can be a good investment. But most of the time, I don’t recommend it. And the way that you can tell if it’s a good investment is traditionally, on a 30-year fixed, 1 point will typically buy down a .25% in rate, typically. Sometimes ⅜ of a point. Well, over — let’s say it’s .25%. Over four years, you basically pay off the point you paid and then you’re kind of in the money, so as long as you own the home more than four years, you’re in the money. And then a lot of times, depending on your tax bracket and everything, you can write off that point in the year that you pay it. So if it was 2021 and you paid 1% on a $300,000 home let’s say, that would be $3,000. But you know, the spread in rate is important in determining if paying points makes sense. But I find that it typically is not the best way to go unless there’s a big spread. Like I had a — there was a time earlier in the year, especially on jumbo mortgages, larger loans that are above the conventional limit, where we were getting a half point for 1% fee. Well, that made sense all day because you had a two-year payback period on a 30-year fixed. Then you were in the money for a remaining 28 years if you stayed there. So for long-term people who are going to be in the home or own the home long-term, it can make sense sometimes. But to compare lenders, you really just want to ask, like if one lender offers you 2 — this is just throwing out numbers — 2.75% with 1 point and the other one offers you 3% with no points, you can ask the 3%, “Hey, if I was charged 1 point, what could I get? What could my rate be?” And if they came back and said, “It’s 2.625%,” well the offer from the higher rate person is actually better. So that would be one way to compare. But that’s a quick summary of points.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, great discussion there of points. I know that comes up a lot, and I think what we’re trying to get to, Tony, is an apples-to-apples comparison the best that we can to evaluate it. And I think you bring up another good point in that discussion, which is the longevity that you may be in the home. And I know that’s an important consideration, one that folks may not be able to predict in advance but to try to objectively evaluate that the best you can because that’s going to impact when you think about rates of the loan, you think about things like points, when you think about down payments and other issues and having to be able to expense a move in the future and closing costs and selling the home, you know, if that runway’s going to be long versus that’s going to be potentially short, that could have a significant impact on many parts of the home buying process. So there you have it, 10 common mortgage mistakes home buyers make and steps that you can take to avoid these mistakes. And to learn more about considerations when getting a home loan and to get more information about the pharmacist home loan offered by Tony and his team at IBERIABANK/First Horizon make sure to check out the post on the YFP site titled, “Five Steps to Getting a Home Loan.” And you can get there by visiting YourFinancialPharmacist.com/home-loan or if you just go to the main page, YourFinancialPharmacist.com, top you’ll see “Buy or Refi a Home,” and that will get you there as well. So Tony, appreciate your expertise as always and appreciate you taking time to come on the show today to talk about this important topic.

Tony Umholtz: Tim, thanks for having me. Really enjoyed it. I always do, and you know, appreciate being a partner with you.

Tim Ulbrich: Thank you very much. And as always, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, please do us a favor and leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to the show each and every week. That will help other pharmacy professionals find this show. Appreciate you taking the time to join us. Have a great rest of your week.

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