Financial Planning / Podcast

YFP 227: Why Tim Baker, CFP® Bought a Depreciating Asset

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Why Tim Baker, CFP® Bought a Depreciating Asset

On this episode, sponsored by GoodRx, Tim Baker talks about his recent decision to buy a depreciating asset, how his journey becoming a Registered Life Planner® (RLP®) impacted his decision, and how he coaches clients considering big financial purchases.

Summary

Your Financial Pharmacist co-owner & YFP Planning Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, talks about his recent decision to buy a depreciating asset. He explains why he would purchase an asset that he knows will go down in value and how it became part of his financial plan.

Tim shares what the depreciating asset purchase is and how he and his wife arrived at their decision. After learning a bit about life planning and its incorporation with the financial plan, Tim realized that one of his goals was to make lifelong memories with his family. Tim and his wife decided that purchasing a motorhome was part of their life plan, allowing them to take adventures across the country, creating those lifelong memories, as Tim did with his own family growing up.

He explains how his journey to becoming a Registered Life Planner® (RLP®) surfaced this experience-based purchase and how the financial plan can and should support the life plan. Tim further details his coaching philosophy when working with clients weighing whether or not to make a large purchase. He considers the entire picture, not just the ones and zeros, creating a plan that benefits the client financially, balancing financial wealth with the client’s idea of a wealthy life. Investing in yourself in ways that align with what a wealthy life means to you ultimately makes for a healthy financial plan by taking care of the whole person.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, welcome back to the show.

Tim Baker: Yeah, good to be back, Tim. Thanks for having me on.

Tim Ulbrich: Before we jump into your story of purchasing a depreciating asset, you and I were talking this past week about how grateful we are for the journey that has been this podcast over the past several years. We started Episode 01 back in July 2017, didn’t know exactly where we were going to go, how long we were going to do it, but are grateful to be here today, over 225 episodes in, three different shows on the channel each week, recently surpassing an important milestone: 750,000 downloads of the show, so pretty awesome, right, to reflect on that journey?

Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s incredible, really. You know, we talk with a lot of prospective clients that we work with one-on-one with YFP Planning. You know, when you get those comments of like, ‘I’ve been listening to you for so long,’ and you kind of build a relationship with your listeners and you know, after the red drains from my face experience in that, it’s also very something that I’m proud of and I think we should be. And it’s been a good forum to really showcase, you know, like what we believe and our approach to money, and I think this is — and wealth building — and I think this particular episode is another step in that. And you know, it’s just been a great forum for us I think to take something that maybe is a little bit — can be a little bit dry and boring for people and get them excited about it. And I think the podcast has been one of the most monumental things that we’ve done. And that was really kind of the first big thing that we’ve done together, Tim.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: And I think it’s been just a great launchpad for our partnership.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And one of the great joys we have is, you know, we get periodic emails from those that are listening to say, “Hey, Tim, I was listening to this podcast and I did this or it inspired me to take some action or to work toward this goal,” and you know, those mean so much to us. I think the goal with this podcast is to hopefully inspire, to motivate, to educate, and we believe this topic is a lifelong journey. It’s something that we’ve practiced in our own lives and I’m hopeful that folks find it as a source of inspiration. So all this to say thank you, thank you to the community for listening, for staying with us, for sharing the good news with others as well, and we appreciate those that have been listening to the podcast and many who have even contributed with being a guest on the show. Alright, Tim, it’s confession time. So I’m putting you on the hot seat in front of the 35,000 or so folks that listen to the show each month to really, you know, ask you why as a financial planner did you decide to make a purchase of a depreciating asset. And so let’s just start with the purchase. What was it? When did you make it? And give us a little bit of the why behind that.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so my wife and I, we purchased a Class C Thor motorhome over the summer. It’s about 30-31 feet. It sleeps 10, so it has a bunkhouse, you know, bunker with a cab, kitchen, bathroom, you know, the whole — dinette — the whole 9. And yeah, we purchased it over the summer from a guy here in Ohio. And it was a long time coming — well, I wouldn’t say a long time coming. It was and it wasn’t. But that was the purchase that we made, and for someone who is very much thinking about finances and things like this and growing wealth, this was not necessarily a move that helps in that department. You know, lots of storage costs and repairs and it’s a 20 — I think it’s a 2014 with about 40,000 miles on it, storage, insurance, the tax that we paid on all that stuff adds up. But probably one of the better decisions I think I’ve made, even in — it’s early, so check in with me later — but I think just great in terms of what I think this can do for our family and the experiences that we can have. And that’s really the crux of why we decided to kind of pull the trigger on this.

Tim Ulbrich: So it’s been over a month, right, now, maybe even two?

Tim Baker: Yeah. I think we bought it in August.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Tim Baker: So we’re recording here in October. I think August is when we purchased it. Yeah. So — and back up, like this was something — and I give my parents a lot of credit growing up. When I was preteen, my parents bought — we first had a travel trailer growing up, so like we had one of those old conversion minivans and a travel trailer. And we took a trip when the three of us were I think preteens. I have an older brother and a younger sister. And we did four weeks, and I grew up in south Jersey, kind of outside of Philadelphia. And we did a four-week trip to as far west as the Grand Canyon, Mount Rushmore, the Alamo, Yellowstone. And for me, that was transformational. And I think that’s one of the words that I would use for this episode is really that. And you know, it kind of really changed my perspective, oh wow, when you drive west, there’s just — just the topography and there’s just so much to see and people are just different and they speak different. And it really broadened my — I don’t know if I would say worldview, but at least my domestic view of the United States and really kind of lit a fire for me to want to travel and see other things. You know, we did other trips outside of that and my parents would take it up to West Point for football weekends, and it was always like a great reprieve, like being able to go inside and like kind of hang — like chill and not always be buttoned up in uniform and things like that. So I kind of just equated that to freedom. And for awhile, you know, I was like, man, I would love to do this with — I was first thinking like when I retire, so like when I’m in my 60s, 70s, and you know, get a big old rig and drive around. But I just started thinking more and more, and as I went through my experience with life planning, really kind of changed my perception or at least my timeline, so to speak.

Tim Ulbrich: So Tim, I want to talk for a moment, you know, we talk on this show before we — I know the planning team does as well. Anytime you’re making a significant purchase or any purchase, for that matter, it means you’re not doing something else with that money, right? So the economic term here being opportunity cost. So you know, as you’re looking at making this large purchase, I know I’ve heard you talk about real estate as a goal, obviously something that you and I are both bullish on and see a growing interest in our community and in large part why we’ve got the podcast that David Bright and Nate Hedrick are doing a bang-up job leading each and every Saturday. So whether you look at say, hey, could this money go to real estate? Could this money go into long-term investing or a brokerage account? You know, could this money go into the 529 account? I think this concept of opportunity cost is — we often talk about it in terms of the dollars and making a decision, but I think there’s also an opportunity cost to not making decisions as we make the connections of how our life plan is supported by the financial plan. So just to nerd out here for a moment, if you were to put $40,000 or let’s say $50,000 and save that for 40 years at 8%, you know, that’s $1 million. So there’s the $50,000 purchase, and then there’s that hidden cost of what that could be if that money were to grow over 40 years. So just talk us through that process as you evaluated this purchase. I suspect others might be thinking the same as they’re weighing big purchases. Like, how did you both consider the opportunity cost and then eventually get to the point where you overcame just the mathematical aspects of it to determine that this was the right decision for you, for the family, and the goals that you guys have?

Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s a great question. And you know, I think for all the way up until almost like go time, you know, it was real estate investment. You know, we — my Ally account that this money was being, like where this money was, was called “Real Estate Investment Account.” It might still be called that. I don’t know if I ever changed it to like “Motor Home Account.” I mean, it’s fairly empty now. We paid cash for this, and I didn’t want to put a note on it, so I wanted to kind of keep in the budget that we were — that we had. But you know, I think it comes down to like windows, right? So I’m really bullish on real estate, and we have one property that we completely gutted and redid our home in Baltimore and are renting that out now since we’ve now moved out to Columbus, Ohio. And that’s been great. And I wanted, I definitely want to do more of this. But when I say “windows,” it’s kind of windows of time. And that’s what life planning is really about. And you know, specifically about the length of your life, but in this case, when we sat down and we were looking at our plan, I asked my wife Shea, I was like, “Is this really what you want to do?” And she’s like, “Yeah, of course it is. This has been — this is the plan.” And we kind of had this role reversal because I’m more of the — and I see this a lot in couples. I’m more of the person that is thinking like long-term and making sure that we’re doing what we need to do to have a wealthy life in the future. And my wife is typically like, hey, we’ve got to make sure that we’re doing — we’re living our life today.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: But in this case, it was kind of a little bit of a role reversal. And I asked like, you know, I asked the question, is this really what you want to do? And she’s like, well yeah, that’s the plan. But then once I said kind of a combination of these words, she’s like, you’re right. So I basically — what I said to her was, Olivia, our oldest — we have Olivia who turns 7 this Halloween, so in about a week or so. She’ll tell everyone about it. She turns 7 this year. And we have Liam, who turned 2 this year. What I was examining, like I was kind of thinking about this as like, we only really have with her, I don’t know, six, seven years maybe until, you know, we’re no longer cool, like she doesn’t want to hang out with us. You know, you get to the teen years —

Tim Ulbrich: And we’re running out of time.

Tim Baker: Yeah, we’re running out of time.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Tim Baker: And you know, I thought about that even with like the trip that I took that, you know, my brother two years older than me, he was kind of right on that preteen. And we had a good time, but I don’t know — like a summer or two after that, I don’t know if that trip would have worked. So when I put that in context in that kind of emotional tug that that gives you and specifically my wife, she’s like, where do we buy a motorhome? Like where do we do this? And that was really it. You know, that was really what brought us is that, you know, I view this purchase as an investment. You know, so many people view this as an expense. And if you do that, it doesn’t really work. And believe me, there are lots of expenses that are tied to this. But if you view this as an investment, you know, a memory-maker investment, that’s where it works. And I’ve had conversations, you know, we kind of bought the motorhome with my sister and her family in mind. They have twins that are a little bit older than Olivia and our boys are about 10 days apart, so they’re like best bros. So we kind of bought it with them in mind, hoping to share this with their family as well. But they’ve actually been thinking about buying their own and kind of doing big trips and like taking a year of that and all this kind of stuff. And for them, it’s hard to get — like they’re doing it down to the penny in terms of expenses. I’m just thinking — like it’s just tough, that’s a tough sell. It is a tough sell. And I get it. Like as a financial planner, it’s good to do that. But for me, this was really about letting go a little bit. And again, I know in the back of my mind that we’re going to be OK for the future and we’re doing a lot of things in that regard and we have a fully-funded emergency fund and all of those things. But to me, like the emotion, which is what drives our choices of I want my kids to experience similar things that I was fortunate enough to experience as I was growing up, and I think we only have a window of time — and not to say that when she’s a teen and things like that, but when you’re camping, like to me, it’s close quarters. Like you’ve really got to love your kids and your family and I think it gets harder as you get to be a little bit older. But that was the impetus, really. And a lot of that really is rooted in my own life planning journey of how we got to even make this transaction.

Tim Ulbrich: Such a good, reminder, Tim, about, you know, if we only look at the numbers — and here, you’re talking about one thing. I would argue that applies to other things as well where if you’re looking at this only as an expense, we would never make these life planning decisions.

Tim Baker: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: Or these decisions that spark the life, right? I mean, I get the numbers. If instead of buying a motorhome, whether that’s $40,000, $50,000, $60,000, whatever — let’s call it $50,000, if instead of buying the motorhome, you saved $50,000 and you put it into a long-term savings account and it grows for 40 years and you have $1 million. In one, we’re looking at $50,000 of a purchase that’s going to go down in value and has other expenses. And in the other, we’re looking at an investment that’s appreciating and is going to be worth $1 million or more. Like but what we’re really trying to highlight through this journey and through the discussion around the planning process and the importance of bringing out these goals and visions that you have for your plan and for the family and for you individually is that it can’t just be about the numbers and the expense. And Tim, you’ve mentioned a couple times now life planning. Tell us more about what is life planning and how did your journey in going through not only your own life planning but ultimately being registered as a life planner and being able to use that skill set for clients of YFP Planning and training the rest of the team? Like what is that life planning process? And how did going through that journey ultimately lead you down this decision here?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I found out about life planning kind of George Kinder, who’s kind of the founding father of life planning, and his three questions. And it’s something that once I went through the three questions myself years ago, I immediately incorporated that into kind of our goal setting. We call it Script Your Plan at YFP Planning. And we’re — that’s what we’re doing is we’re kind of saying, OK, now that we know kind of where we’re at, we’ve gone through a get organized, where is all the — what do the finances look like, let’s talk about where we want to go. So we do the three questions with clients now, but I think for me, what I — it was powerful to go through that myself when I was answering those questions, and I found out that there’s a registered life planning designation, RLP, that I just finished this year. And really, it’s been a couple years in the process that I have been going through that. What life planning is, to back up, they say it’s kind of financial planning done right. It’s really about putting first things first. You know, we often live our lives by like a paradigm that is not ours. It’s been kind of something that’s been dictated to us over the course of our lives, you know, get good grades, get a good job, earn a lot of money, that type of thing. But for a lot of us, we kind of get stuck on that, stuck in that, and we can sometimes fall into this state of not really examining our lives and not really saying like, is this really what I want? Is this what I’m doing right now, is this what a wealthy life is? And again, it’s not just about the 1s and 0s, it’s about what are you passionate about? What enriches your life? So years ago, I went out to Arizona and I did the first step, which was the seven stages of money maturity, which kind of focuses on listening, believe it or not. So as planners, we need to shut up. And so much of us, we see like student loans, OK, this is what you do, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And there’s a plan. But it’s really about focusing on your client and being there with them, being present with them, and not trying to overpower or not listen. And it’s about communication, kind of the client-planner attitudes, the biases and behaviors that we grow up with, so understanding that. You know, one being money is the root of all evil. Like where does that come from? Or you know, don’t trust — like some of those things were built into me I think. You know, my mom came from a very — her upbringing was tough. And I think some of those were kind of implanted on me. And you go, I have to understand that. And we see a lot of clients with that type of thing. So that was eye-opening. And really the next stage, which I think was truly transformational, was a five-day in-person training called The Evoke Life Planning Training. And this is where you actually go through the different stages of life planning. So I was life planned myself. And I life planned my partner Dan, so shout out to Dan. And I think this for me was very transformational. I kind of went into that training not knowing what to really expect but came out saying like, I am burnt out. My schedule is not mine. You know, kind of what I’m doing right now is not healthy. And from there, you know, I changed a lot of things. But the big thing that I took away from that was my vision meeting, which is the second — you know, it’s all about uncovering your kind of most exciting, meaningful, and fulfilling aspirations. And when Dan went through that with me and lit my torch, it was about really the motorhome and doing that with my family. And I still remember that meeting like it was yesterday. And you know, you go through that and you know, you create so much energy that that’s all I think about. Like that’s all I thought about for a while. And it took me longer than I thought to get it done, but you know, you could run through walls. And then finally, the life plan that you go through like a mentorship, which is like a six-month thing where you go through case studies and one-on-one guidance and group conferences and things like that. So that finished this year. And to me, the challenge that I have now is how do I best inculcate and integrate, I should say, the life planning methodologies into what we’re doing with clients. Right now, we do portions of it, and I tested out kind of the full Evoke method on clients and trying to figure out how to best balance getting to the core of what a client is passionate about but also making sure that we’re soothing the pain that are student loans, investments, tax questions, insurance, home buying, all that stuff. So that’s my challenge going forward. But I think to me, it’s where you really create and have meaningful relationships, meaningful conversations. And that’s what the RLP is about. And I think without me going through it personally, I don’t think that we would be at this step. And like I said, to go back to the whole if you invest this money, what would it be in 30 years? $1 million. I’m like, that’s great. But I would suspect that if you asked a 30-year-older version of myself, I would trade that $1 million for I think the experiences that we’re going to have with this investment, the RV, and with my family. And that’s I think what this is really about.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think that’s what a good coach does, right, what you just mentioned there is ask that question or ask the right set of questions that get somebody thinking about what might 30-year-into-the-future self think of this looking back? And you know, I think there’s some good accountability in that process. I think as you’ve gone through the RLP and just briefly scratched the surface here, I think that has really enriched the planning process and obviously you seeing the value of that being able to bring that effort to clients of YFP Planning, so I’m grateful for that. Tim, I’m looking at your credentials now on LinkedIn. You’re starting to look like a pharmacist with all these letters after your name.

Tim Baker: Alphabet soup. Yeah, I know. I’m working on a few others.

Tim Ulbrich: I was going to say, you’ve got one coming down the pipe, right, the RICP is coming. So.

Tim Baker: Yeah, if I can study, if I can get studying for it, yeah. I mean — and again, I think, you know, one of the things that one of our core values at YPF is optimize you and you know, I’ve been in organizations where it’s stagnant because hey, we’ve figured everything out and we’ve seen everything. And I think that’s just poison to an organization. So you know, I’m not necessarily one for designations just to get them, but I look at it in terms of what can this provide to our practice? How can this further benefit the clients that we serve? And you know, I think that is important. And you know, having that. And it’s funny. I always kind of go back to this story. When I graduated from West Point, I’m like, ‘Well, that’s it. I’m done with school. I never have to pick up a book or do anything.’ And you know, really that changed more when I became an entrepreneur and now I’m a — I read all the time and listen to podcasts and I’m always trying to figure out ways to do things. And I think, you know, that’s the message really even to our clients is keep evolving and keep sharpening the salt, so to speak. You know, I think that it just, it leads to more of an enriched life but also I think it just can continually improve your skill set. And again, like the RLP, the Registered Life Planning, there are advisors, financial advisors, that have taken this training and have stopped being financial advisors. Like all they do is the front end life planning and then they hand it off to advisors. And I actually thought of like even doing that internally is you know, having just life planners that are doing this front-end work that it’s a form of planning, it’s a form of coaching, and then hand it off to our CFPs to kind of, you know, put a lot of that into practice. So it’s an option that I’ve been playing around with. And I think the cool thing about this is you don’t have to have all of the other financial designations to do this, but to me, it’s how do we further enrich ourselves, enrich the lives of our clients?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and you mentioned Kinder and the three questions. We’re going to link to those in the show notes for those that want to dig a little bit deeper. And for those that are hearing this in real time saying, “Hey, I’m really interested in having a financial plan that also considers some of what we’re talking about here around the life plan,” we would love to have an opportunity to talk with you to see if the services offered at YFP Planning are a good fit for you and the financial goals that you have. We do a free discovery call, you can learn more, schedule that at YFPPlanning.com. Tim, talk me through the process not only that you use but in coaching clients of YFPP that are making a big financial purchase, right? It could be a home, whether that’s a first home, an investment property, a vacation home, could be a car, could be a motorhome. What questions are you prodding to help them reflect upon that purchase that hopefully leads to a situation where there’s a purchase that has confidence behind it and not one that leads to buyer’s remorse?

Tim Baker: I think that you know, this is a process, right? So it’s not — you can’t look at it in a silo. I probably wouldn’t have made this type of purchase without a good, solid foundation. So like you know, cash emergency fund, a good savings plan beyond that, I think doing well in the investments, stable job, all those things. But beyond that, you know, like what we often ask clients is if we get into the Delorean, the imaginary Delorean, and we go ahead five years, like what does success look like? You know? If we look back at those five years. And I like to kind of equate age with that because I’m turning 40 next year, Tim, so like in 30 years, I’ll be 70, which is kind of like where my parents are. My dad’s a little bit older than that. So like trying to put myself in their shoes and like what do I want to accomplish because the further away it gets, the harder it is for us to kind of like feel that time. So I think framing it — and just for a lot of us, it’s actually just sitting down and actually asking some of these questions of ourselves. Like I said, I always tell the story when I was — my first job out of the Army was Sears/Kmart. So I would drive to work in the dark at 5 in the morning, and I would drive home in the dark at probably 6 at night or 7 at night or something like that. And those drives I would never remember. Like I would get in my car, and I was on autopilot. And so many of us, like that’s our life is like we’re not really thinking. It’s kind of an automatic thing, so like even asking ourselves these questions, so I think it’s — that’s part of it. It’s just going through that process and examining is this what we want to do? And if it’s not, what the heck are we doing about it? So like one of the things I say to prospective clients, you know, we might go through the wealth-building stage of the financial plan and we’ll do a nest egg calculation that says, ‘Hey, Tim, you need $5 million to retire.’ And that’s typically where they look at us like we have 5 million heads, right, because it’s a big number that’s in the future that doesn’t really mean anything to me. So you know, we go through the process of kind of discounting that back to a number that says, OK, if you’re putting this into your TSP or this into your IRA or this into your 401k a month, you’re on track or you’re off track, right? So we can kind of break that down into more of a digestible number to see if we’re trending to that goal given, you know, a handful of assumptions. But the point of this story is if we do work together for the next 30 years, and you don’t have $5 million, you have $7 million, $8 million, $10 million, whatever that is, that’s great. Like those numbers are bigger than $5 million. But if you’re miserable because you look back at that list of all the things that you wanted to do over 30 years, 20 years, 10 years, whatever that is, and you haven’t done anything and you’re miserable because of it or you’re disappointed, the question I would ask you is what’s the freaking point?

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right.

Tim Baker: Why get this education, why earn this money, why pay down this debt, why invest, whatever, if we’re not going to intentionally direct it to the things that matter to you most? And I don’t think that I’m going to be on my death bed and I’m going to say, “I wish I would not have bought that RV.” I just don’t think that in my heart of hearts because of just — I just think about the reaction that my daughter and my nieces had, just when we pulled that up. And even the two camping trips that I had, I think I snapped a few pictures and texted them to you, Tim, even in our first camping trips, it’s going to be an adventure. And to extrapolate that out, like that’s our lives. Our lives are adventures. But we have to be willing to take it, you know, and seize it. And I think that’s what life planning really tries to get to the surface is what is that adventure? And taking that road and not necessarily adapt to a paradigm that’s not yours.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and you talked about this, I think there’s some really practical things, right, making sure do I have a good foundation in place? We talked about that on Episode 212, you know, what does it look like to have a good, strong financial foundation in place. You know, looking at the value that this purchase is going to add, what are the alternatives, right? We talked a little bit about opportunity cost. You know, waiting a little bit before making that purchase and feeling that peace and the thought that went behind making the decision. But you know, as you highlighted, I think the example of fast forward looking back and really asking some good questions to reflect on that, so, so important. So and you mentioned that — if I heard you correctly — it’s the Thor, right? Which is great. I just see like Tim Baker behind the wheel of the Thor and think of the Thor films, which is fantastic.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Where has it gone so far? Where is the Thor going in the future?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so we’ve just done basically weekend trips in Ohio. We’ve just done camping sites that are within a few hours’ drive. So we went up to Cedar Villa one — that was our most recent one. I think next year it’s really looking at some of the national parks. And it’s a lot — it actually is different than growing up. Like you have to book these pretty well in advance, so if we want to go to Yosemite or things like that. And you know, I kind of look at this as like, you know, some summers of adventure is really to get the kids, especially when Olivia is not in school, and go out and do it, you know? And you know, a lot of it is, you know, just being outside of your comfort zone. I don’t think I’ve ever driven something this big, but it’s fun. And you know, it can be a little stressful, and that can be true for whatever your life plan is is that it can be outside of your comfort zone. But it’s one of those things that, again, I’m tooling down the road and I look back and the two boys are in their car seat just gabbing on and the girls are doing their thing. And it’s brought me a lot of fulfillment already, and I think one of the things Shea and I have a long drive here this afternoon heading back to Maryland for a wedding. That’s one of the things we’re going to talk about too is what is the slate of trips? And start scheduling them. And I’m really excited for that. So it’s a journey. And I’m excited, I’m excited for what’s in front of us and again, to me, I look at this as a window of time with our kids. But just to extrapolate that out further, like we have a window of time, which is our life. And again, to kind of bring it back to life planning, it’s really important that we’re taking full advantage of that and not necessarily leaving anything on the table.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, one of the things we’re blessed with here in Ohio, Tim, shout out to the Buckeye State, is just some awesome state parks. So you know, trips locally and I know you’ve got a sabbatical coming up here. So one of the benefits we offer for the team at YFP is when you get to the five-year mark, we’ve got a month off and some funds to take a trip with the idea that we’re supporting the things that are central to the life plan. So pressure’s on, Tim, to be planning that, that sabbatical when it comes to the motorhome. Great stuff, Tim. Appreciate your willingness to share the story. And again, for those that are hearing this and interested in taking that next step with the financial plan, especially considering some of the dreams and goals that you have for you individually or for you and your family, love the opportunity to talk about the services at YFP Planning. You can learn more and schedule a free discovery call at YFPPlanning.com.

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YFP 225: How to Navigate Open Enrollment and Employer Benefits

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How to Navigate Open Enrollment and Employer Benefits

On this episode, sponsored by GoodRx, Tim Baker, YFP Co-founder and YFP Planning Director of Financial Planning, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about open enrollment and evaluating employer benefits. Tim and Tim dig into:

Considerations for choosing a health insurance plan
How to determine whether or not your employer-provided life and disability insurance is sufficient (one of the most common questions we get)
Understanding the differences between an FSA, Dependent Care FSA, and HSA
What to be looking for when putting money into your employer-sponsored retirement plan.

Summary

This week on the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, Tim Ulbrich sits down with YFP co-owner and Director of Financial Planning, Tim Baker, to discuss open enrollment and the process of evaluating employer benefits. As you go into making your benefit selections for 2022, Tim and Tim share some considerations for choosing a health insurance plan and how to determine whether or not your employer-provided life and disability insurance are sufficient. Tim and Tim provide a general overview into understanding the differences between an FSA, Dependent Care FSA, and HSA and what to be looking for when putting money into your employer-sponsored retirement plan.

Whether you are reviewing your benefits for the first time or are a seasoned professional with open enrollment, there are many factors to consider. Pharmacists may not think to consult with their financial planners when it comes to open enrollment or the process of evaluating employer benefits, but these decisions affect the financial plan. When choosing a plan for the coming year, pharmacists should consider future life events or changes impacting money spent on medical expenses such as a child being born, marriage or divorce, coverage for a significant other, or a child aging out of medical coverage. The open enrollment period is a time to review history in medical spending, how much is spent out of pocket, and how to optimize benefits and cost savings based on those findings.

Tim Baker touches on life insurance and disability insurance, how to calculate your total need, transferability issues to consider when deciding whether or not to purchase a policy outside of your employer policy, and tax considerations.

Tim Ulbrich closes out by breaking down the differences between an FSA, DCFSA, and HSA. He also touches on retirement savings accounts in conjunction with open enrollment and the opportunity to re-evaluate investing and savings goals and how each fits in with the financial plan.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, glad to have you back on the show.

Tim Baker: Yeah, good to be here, Tim. Looking forward to getting into open enrollment discussion. ‘Tis the season. So yeah, I’m ready for it.

Tim Ulbrich: ‘Tis the season indeed. Fall is in the air officially here in Ohio, which does mean it’s almost time for open enrollment and ensuring that we’re taking the time to understand and maximize employer benefits. And I think whether someone is reviewing their benefits for the first time, whether that’s accepting a new position, going through another round of open enrollment, a lot to consider here, including insurance, retirement accounts and HSAs, FSAs, to name a few. So Tim, our team at YFP Planning includes employer benefits as a part of the planning process, perhaps an area that folks don’t necessarily associate working with their financial planner on. So how does this part, employer benefits, factor into the financial plan? And why is it so important that we’re looking at it in the planning process?

Tim Baker: Yeah, I think this is another area, Tim, where like when we say, “comprehensive,” we mean comprehensive. And it’s just like kind of the same conversation with things like home purchase. Most financial advisors are not going to kind of walk you through kind of the A-Z of buying a home because most of the time, a financial advisor is working with people in their 50s, 60s, 70s, right? And the reason for that is because those are the people that have assets, and that’s how they charge their fee. We have many, many, many clients that are in their 20s and 30s. And things like home purchase is really important and is often a big step in their financial journey and their financial plan. So we kind of take the time to go through that based on, I know you’ve said it, I’ve said it, we’ve messed those transactions up in the past, and we just don’t want to see our clients do the same thing. So open enrollment is kind of the same thing. A lot of financial advisors don’t really talk about this stuff because if you’re working with people in their 50s, 60s, like they’ve done it dozens of times, right? So they’ve gone through this. And a lot of our clients haven’t. You know, it’s not something that is kind of what we understand. And so to define open enrollment, open enrollment is the period of time where you can purchase or apply for health insurance for the upcoming year without a qualifying event. And usually a qualifying event is something like a marriage or a divorce or a birth of a child. So it’s typically very centered on the health insurance plan because that’s the big piece of the benefits. But then what the employer does is kind of have you opt out of other benefits that they might offer, which might be life insurance, disability, I’ve even seen things like pet insurance and things like that. You know, some things that are not insurance-related could be like a legal benefit. So that’s what this is is open enrollment. And it’s important because your employer benefits are a major component of your compensation package. And you know, this is kind of the conversation that goes back to things like salary negotiation is I’ve seen clients, they’ll say, “Hey, I’m making $110,000,” and they get an offer for $120,000 but they take a major step back with regard to their total compensation because of the benefits that are associated with that. I think it’s really important to understand what the employer benefits are and how to assess that. So that’s really what’s at stake here is really understanding that piece. And we know this, Tim, because when we plan to hire someone, we know that it’s not just about the salary pay. We apply a multiple on top of that because we know that the benefits that we’re going to provide for the employee are going to be above and beyond that. So that total cost or what I would say is an investment in that person is really beyond the salary. So this is what is really that bell to that. We’re trying to assess an an employee to say, OK, how can I best optimize this part of my compensation. And I would say that there is a lot, you know, a lot of people that don’t necessarily fully optimize this part of their financial plan or give it the attention that it needs because it sneaks up on us or bad information or what have you. So that’s really kind of the overall picture here of what it is and why it’s important.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and Tim, I think when you say sneaks up on us, bad information, it’s important I think for folks, basic stuff before we jump into individual benefits, you know, know your dates, obviously what’s the time span. You know, a lot of employers, depending on how they organize this, will do informational sessions, open Q&As, one-on-ones, group, and some of that might be automated, depending on the system and the platform they’re using. But making sure, understanding the dates, you know, simple things, how much time do you have if you’re going to be on vacation, things like that, making sure you can coordinate with HR. And then also, you know, just taking a look at your pay stub and your benefits. What do you currently have? And really taking a pulse on — and I think just a chance to go back and what’s gross pay, what’s net pay, what’s coming out in benefits, and taking this time that comes around every year as a chance to revisit some of these things that we want to be looking at often. And then of course, just thinking about upcoming changes, right, that might be happening. You know, I think of things like children that might be beneficiaries on the healthcare side, aging out if you think about 26 or folks that might be expecting or perhaps getting married, things that might have an impact on their benefits, considering those things as you’re in the benefits selection. And then of course just refreshing and updating the evaluation of who are the beneficiaries that are listed on certain policies. Tim, I want to start with health insurance. You know, I think it’s the one that typically carries the biggest price tag as we think about it relative to the other insurance and typically carries more options than things like dental and vision and life and disability, which I think for many employers it’s more of a one-way type of option. So the big question here is how do I determine which one to get? And of course, all plans are created differently but when folks are looking at these and you’re evaluating the deductibles and maximum out-of-pockets and premiums and copays and coinsurance, unfortunately, it’s a system that even though our audience is comfortable with all of those numbers because they live in it in the job that they’ve done or have been trained in it previously, there’s just a lot to consider. And if you look at plans, let’s consider a three-tiered plan where you’ve got like a bronze, silver, gold option, you know, you’re looking at OK, less out of pocket, more out of pocket, better coverage, but perhaps I could have lower out of pocket and I could use that money elsewhere. Like general framework, how do you begin to help clients think through this decision and not just look at it in a silo but also consider it in the context of the rest of the plan?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think it’s — you know, everyone can say it with me — it depends, right? So you know, I think a lot of it depends on past history or — you know, you mentioned a few things like what’s kind of on the horizon? Is it getting married or having kids? And some of those will allow you to kind of elect insurance outside of the open enrollment period. But those are typically qualifying events. But you know, an example is when we had Liam, when Shea was pregnant with Liam, we opted out of the bronze package, you know, the HSA plan to more of a gold package because we knew that the doctor bills and the hospital bills were going to be there. Our thought process was, you know, although in most cases we’re not going to the doctor a lot, you know, during a normal year, well, electing to a higher deductible plan, which means less coming out of our paycheck but then when we do go to the doctor, there’s going to be potentially more coming out of our pocket. So we did that to get in front of it a little bit. And you know, that’s really important from a planning perspective and kind of mitigating as much of the costs — and we probably saved ourselves if we did the math $1,000 by doing that. So that’s an important part of the plan. Now, sometimes things are going to come up and you’re just not going to — you know, it’s kind of like that emergency fund. You’re just not going to know for the future. But I would say is it’s a little bit of an exercise in looking at your past history, so looking at how often you’re going to the doctor and how often you’re reaching into your pocket to pay for things like copays and things like that. But then also projecting it forward, so that’s kind of where the conversation starts is that, you know, if you’re a younger, healthy professional and you’re not really going to the doctor, then you probably should really consider kind of a bronze, high-deductible, HDHP plan and couple that with the HSA, which we’ve said is a great forum to stash dollars. If you’re looking at regular doctor visits because of a chronic issue or something like that, that’s not going to be for you, regardless of your age. You just know that you’re going to be in and out of the doctor’s office. So I think it’s really looking at, again, kind of the budget and seeing what money has been spent on healthcare costs in the past and then what you think, project those going forward. And like I said, like this is not — it’s important, but these are taking it like snapshots one year at a time. So you can — like after Liam was born and the medical expenses were gone, then we went back to the high-deductible plan with the HSA. So I think it’s really important to kind of take stock of kind of your history, your medical history, your spending on healthcare, to form the baseline of your decision in that realm. The other comment I would make, Tim, is not all 401k’s are created equal. And as many of us know, not all health plans are created equal. So some are really, really great, and some are really, really terrible. And sometimes, that has to do with the size of the organization, sometimes the economies to scale, the bigger that you are, the less that each participant pays, whether that’s the 401k or the health insurance plan. So you kind of have to work with the sandbox, you know, that you’re playing in, so to speak, and something that can be very much out of your control.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think, Tim, your example of Liam is a great reminder of not putting open enrollment on auto pilot.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think that’s what we’re trying to stress here is like, using this as a chance to re-evaluate each year, you know, what happened last year? What worked last year may or may not be what makes sense for this year for a variety of reasons. And I think this is certainly a place where we want to be evaluating what does the cash position look like? What does the reserves look like? And how do we feel about that? Especially if we’re going to be opting into a high-deductible health plan, you know, thinking worst case scenario — hopefully never happens — looking at those out-of-pocket maxes and really asking yourself, how comfortable are we with that happening? How does that make us feel? And could we weather that storm if it were to come?

Tim Baker: Yeah, and you know, and we’ve had some tough conversations with clients that are deep in credit card debt and they really need as much of their income to kind of like right the ship and get going, so sometimes it means sacrificing or being uncomfortable here. You know, one of the things I look at is like if we look at all the debts that are out there, medical debt is not necessarily a bad debt in terms of like they reformed a lot of things with it hurting your credit because it’s kind of been a nightmare, you’re typically not gouged with higher interest rates and things like that. So typically more forgiven. I would even say push back on a lot of medical debt because it’s wrong. I think Tim, you had a story about that when one of your sons was born. So there’s a little bit more give I would say than some of these other ones that goes like right to collections and you’re in a lot of trouble. So it’s kind of — this is all about like mitigating the risk and trying to understand where can we give a little bit so we’re OK.

Tim Ulbrich: I want to shift gears, Tim, to life and disability. Probably one of the most common questions that we get is, do I need to purchase additional life and disability insurance beyond what my employer covers? And of course the answer is it depends on a large part of the individual’s situation and what they have going on and what they’re trying to do with those policies and so forth. But you know, general thoughts and discussion on how one goes about making this decision in terms of understanding what coverage is there from an employer standpoint, determining what total coverage may be needed, and some of the gap and differences between an employer plan and if they purchased a policy out on the open market.

Tim Baker: I think if we look at most pharmacists out there, you know, professionals that are making a six-figure salary, I think there’s going to come a time when there probably is a need to purchase policies outside of what the employer provides. Now, the problem with the financial services industry is that a lot of “financial advisors” are trying to push those policies on a young professional when they probably don’t need them. That’s when you’re a pharmacist that has maybe six figures of debt that’s going to be forgiven if you die or are disabled with no dependents and really, you know, not much on your balance sheet. So there’s kind of like this gap of do I really need this? Or can I just make do with what my employer provides? I’ll say this about the employer-provided policies: Outside of health insurance, which is a health plan, I would say that things like life and disability insurance are not plans. They’re really perks. So they’re meant to supplement or meant to provide some type of benefit that will help the employee but also it’s a way to kind of retain you and things like that. So I really view these as perks and not necessarily plans. I would say, to your point, Tim, I think it’s really looking at the individual and say OK, does it make sense to buy a policy outside of that? Most employers will provide some type of life insurance benefit, whether it’s something like $50,000 or one or two times income, which you can then elect to either increase your coverage or not. I think the downside of that is, you know, if you’re working for an employer as a 30-year-old and you have all of your eggs in that basket and you’re saying, “Hey, I have $1 million” or a lot of times, they’re capped. Most times, pharmacists need a lot more than what their employer can provide. So that’s one of the drawbacks. But if you’re working with that company for 40 years and then you leave to go to another organization, which maybe that isn’t provided or it’s a lot less of a benefit, you have a gap, then you’re going out in the market 10 years older where you’re paying a lot more for that particular policy. So that’s one of the things that — sometimes they’re portable, meaning that you can take them with you, and sometimes they’re not. So for both the life and disability, you know, it’s really looking at your own situation. Just like open enrollment itself, this is one of the things that often overlooked, just insurance. And I know we’ve probably done a podcast in the past about what’s proper life and disability and things like that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: For the disability, the coverage is typically going to be a percentage of your income. And again, it could be capped, and some employers will offer both long-term and short-term disability. You know, both are great. But you know, oftentimes, because of one reason or another, there’s going to be a gap in the coverage either because of taxes or just that a pharmacist, what they make and what most professionals will say that you need to kind of cover down and typically, that can be anywhere from 50-80% of what your income is, that there is a need to go out onto the open market and buy individual policies. But from an open enrollment perspective, I think if you don’t have those policies, it’s really important to understand, you know, what is there for you? And what can at least tide you over until you get those policies in place? And again, it’s one of those things where it’s like, it’s not important to you until it’s important to you. And it’s really hard to kind of, to show that to clients unless they’ve experienced that pain themselves or a close family member.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: But it’s going to be a really important piece of protecting the overall financial plan, which is — this is really what this is all about is, you know, insurance is really protecting the financial plan from a catastrophic event and ensuring that you can continue to build wealth and survive into the future.

Tim Ulbrich: Episode 044, Tim, How to Determine Life Insurance Needs, 045, How to Determine Disability Insurance Needs, two that we’ll link to in the show notes. We’ve got more information on the website as well, YourFinancialPharmacist.com. Tim, I think one of the common mistakes I see made here just relating to that discussion on gap in coverage is not digging into the policies to really understand, you know, life insurance is maybe the most obvious example where if you have a policy — if you have a need for life insurance and you have a term policy that’s offered for $50,000 or $100,000 or one times salary or two times salary, typically, those have a cap on them. For many folks, there’s going to be a gap and a shortage. And I think this is where, you know, sitting down one-on-one with someone to really calculate the total need, think about the transferability issues that you mentioned and what does it mean if you pick up employment, tax considerations, and really getting into the weeds of some of the nuances of the policies and things like own occupation, we’ve talked about that before and its importance. And again, thinking about how this fits in with the rest of the plan. And just a shoutout here to our fee-only financial planning team at YFP Planning, this is really where I think the value of fee-only comes in in that really sitting down with someone to determine what is their true need in their best interests. Not too much coverage that there’s dollars being spent that could be put elsewhere in the financial plan, but making sure we’re also not exposing the plan to unnecessary risk.

Tim Baker: Yeah, I mean, you know, this — what we’re talking about here are products. Like insurance is a product. So any time that you talk about dispensing a device, “Hey, Tim, you need life insurance,” and you say, “OK, great. Like where do I get it?” Like we can sell you this product. There’s going to be a conflict of interest. So having someone that is a fee-only fiduciary that is not further enriched by the advice that they’re giving, you know, strips away a lot of that, well, am I being advised in my best interests or in the advisor’s best interests, the one that’s advising me. So that’s I think the beauty of fee-only.

Tim Ulbrich: One example I just want to give here, I just pulled up, Tim, our long-term disability coverage that we added recently for the YFP team.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: And you know, if you look at it on kind of the main benefits platform, it says, “60% monthly income up to $6,000.” But this is an example where digging deeper is so valuable. You know, you get into things like what is the definition of earnings? So our policy, it’s base wage. So how you’re compensated could have an impact here.

Tim Baker: Yep.

Tim Ulbrich: What’s the elimination period or the timeframe from when the disability happens to when the benefit starts to pay out? Here, it’s 90 days. But if it’s shorter than that, perhaps longer than that, what’s the game plan to fund. Does it have own occupation coverage? We’ve talked about the importance of that before. What’s the maximum benefit? Our policy goes up to age 65. And then things like coverage restrictions, other incentives. So really, just a reminder of this time period and using this point here to really dig into this information and read the policies.

Tim Baker: Yeah, you know, and again, going back to those episodes you mentioned there, that’s where we kind of talk about the nitty-gritty, but I think the beautiful thing about this is like when we’re reviewing this and we kind of look at the — kind of go through the open enrollment optimization stuff is like as a planner, I’m looking at your balance sheet. So I’m like, alright, does it make sense to bolster — you know, because a lot of these, you can opt in. So like our policy doesn’t do this, but a lot of policies, they’ll say, “The employer pays for a 60% benefit of your earnings.” But then you can opt in to get that up to 80%. So you pay an additional — you pay out of pocket out of your paycheck for that additional 20%. If I’m looking at your balance sheet, Tim, and I’m saying, “Man, you have plenty of cash,” I would say, “Let’s not opt into that.” Or we might say, “Let’s do it,” because we know because the employer is going to pay for it, that that benefit’s going to be taxed.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: If the employer pays for the benefit, it’s going to be taxed. That’s the gap. You know, so the idea is looking at your situation and overlaying what’s out there. I think the open enrollment, what I say is we want to look at the things that you’re paying for and say, does it make sense for you to be paying for it? I see a lot of AD&D insurance, and I kind of look at this as like — and again, this is not advice — but I kind of look at those as like when you buy something at Best Buy and they ask you about the warranty. You know, most of the time, you say no because it’s just not worth the money. Some of these things in open enrollment, it’s the same thing. It’s like AD&D, for those to pay out is very rare. So even if it’s $2 per pay period, I’m like, I just don’t think it’s worth it. So we’re trying to make sure that you’re not paying for things that don’t necessarily provide you much benefit, much utility. But then you are paying for things that do. And you know, kind of finding that Venn diagram of sorts to make sure that, again, we’re fully optimized with regard to this part of your compensation package.

Tim Ulbrich: AD&D, for folks that are wondering, Accidental Death & Dismemberment insurance.

Tim Baker: Oh yeah. Yep.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker dropping some financial lingo here.

Tim Baker: Sorry about that. Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, next I want to talk about FSAs, dependent care FSAs, especially since we’ve had some changes that have happened there as well as HSAs. And we’ve talked probably among these to the greatest extent, we’ve talked about HSAs because of the value of what that can provide as well as these other options. And we’ve talked about it on the podcast, we’ve got some blog posts, Episode 165, The Power of a Health Savings Account, also have an article on the blog, which we’ll link to, about really more of the strategic investing side of an HSA if you’re able to do that. So Tim, high level overview, FSA, dependent care FSA, HSA, and some of the differences and considerations for these accounts.

Tim Baker: The very crude way that I remember the difference between FSA and HSA is FSAs are really use-or-lose. So when you fund these with pre-tax dollars, if you don’t use those monies for the purposes of healthcare for an FSA for healthcare or dependent care for a dependent care FSA, you lose it. So it’s F-udge. Like I don’t get — you don’t get to use that money. Whereas the HSA, this is — can potentially be an accrual account, meaning that year over year, you can stack Benjamins and hopefully one day becomes that kind of stealth IRA that we talk about that has that triple tax benefit. So like I said, we’ve talked about the HSA ad nauseum. It has to be paired with a high-deductible health plan. You know, you can put the money in. It has a triple tax benefit, which means it goes in pre-tax, it grows tax-free so you can invest it like an IRA, and then you can distribute it in the near term for approved medical costs or when you reach a certain age, you can use it basically for whatever. So that’s the beauty of the HSA. But you know, again, it only works or you only have access to it when it’s paired with a high-deductible health plan. The FSA for healthcare is similar, but very different. So you’re allowed to use — you’re allowed to fund it with pre-tax dollars, meaning if you make $100,000 and you put $1,000 in there, you’re taxed on as if $99,000. So I think the limits for FSA for 2021, I think it’s like $2,750.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s right. Yep.

Tim Baker: Yeah. So the idea is that what you’re trying to do here — it’s a little bit of a game of chicken. So what you’re trying to do is really, again, see into the future and say, “OK, what do I know is a baseline that I’m going to use on my out-of-pocket healthcare expenses?” And if you know for sure that you’re going to spending $2,000 on that, then you should fund it with $2,000. And typically, there is a little bit of give at the end of the year where you can either carry some over or you have some time into the New Year to use it on.

Tim Ulbrich: Two months or —

Tim Baker: Yeah. And every plan is going to be different in its design. So you might be loading up on kind of some of the over-the-counter stuff. I’ve had a client buy a bunch of stuff for like contacts and things like that. So it’s going to be really important to kind of — again, this goes back to the spending plan, the budget, to understand what have you been spending in the past? Is that going to be indicative of what you will spend in the future? And then fund that with at least that baseline amount so you don’t lose it. The same thing can be said for the dependent care FSA. So this is a pre-tax account that you can fund that is used for care for your child who is age 13, for before- and after-school care, babysitting, nanny expenses, daycare, nursery school, preschool, summer day camp, and then also care for a spouse or a relative who is physically or mentally unable to care for themselves and lives in your home. So this money — this has actually been amended under the American Rescue Plan Act. So I think for single and married filing jointly couples, the pre-tax contribution limit went from where you could $5,000 a year, now it’s I think $10,500.

Tim Ulbrich: Significant jump. Yep.

Tim Baker: Yeah, very significant. So the higher limits apply to the plan year beginning Dec. 31, 2020 and before Jan. 1, 2022. So it is a temporary thing, but it allows you to park some dollars that you would otherwise — so if you’re in a 25% tax bracket, it’s as if you’re saving 25%, kind of thinking about it that way. So that’s what really — and for the FSAs, unlike the HSA, the FSA is — it has to be provided by the employer. I think we had a question on the Ask a YFP CFP about the HSA. And you don’t have to necessarily go through your employer. Sometimes, the employer doesn’t offer it. So you can go out and set up your own HSA. The FSA has to be provided by the employer for you to have access to it. So that’s really important. Again, these are all going to be — when you elect it, it’s going to take money out of your paycheck and basically fund these accounts for the appropriate purpose.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and this to me is where when we’ve talked with Paul Eikenberg, our director of tax, and working with our clients, one of the things he talks about here is these being untapped areas of potential.

Tim Baker: Totally.

Tim Ulbrich: And so I think there’s a lot of low-hanging fruit in the financial plan. And I think really evaluating these and perhaps the dollars of any one don’t jump out as being super significant, but I think as we start to add these up with other strategies, there certainly is value. And Tim, you had mentioned we did tackle a question recently on Ask a YFP CFP 084. The question was about fees on an HSA account, but we did talk about the opportunity to access an HSA account independent of the employer. So we’ve talked about health insurance, we’ve talked about life and disability, we’ve talked about FSAs and HSAs and dependent care FSAs. I want to wrap up our discussion by retirement saving options. And I think, again, this is an opportunity to take a step back, look at the overall progress on the investing part of the plan, overall goals, perhaps gap between the goals and where you’re currently at, and then to evaluate where does investing fit in with the rest of the financial plan. And so when we think about, Tim, employer-sponsored retirement accounts, two main buckets we have, which are those that are Roth contributions and those that are traditional. So define for us the difference between those two for folks that are — maybe have some outstanding questions about those or unsure as well as the limits of what we’re able to do in 2021.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so — and I’ll preface this by saying that most of — you know, open enrollment is a good time to check in on your retirement savings options. You’re not necessarily bound to that because you can go in —

Tim Ulbrich: Correct.

Tim Baker: — really at any time and say, “Hey, I was putting in 5%. I talked to a YFP planner, and they said I should put in 8%. That’ll put me on track to get my $5 million nest egg, so that’s what I want to do.” I can really do that at any time. Or I can say, “I want less Roth and more traditional,” or whatever the case is. So it’s just a good opportunity, it’s a good checkpoint to say, OK, where am I at and should I make any tweaks? So — and one of the things that they often do here is they allow you to put in an escalator. So you know — and you can do this any time too, but it’s a good thing to do in open enrollment so every year, you can increase that by 1% or 2% or whatever that looks like. So to answer your question, Tim, the Roth v. traditional, so most employers will offer a 401k or a 403b or if you work for the government, a TSP. So when you elect your retirement options here, a lot of them will now — you’ll have a traditional — so think of two buckets. You’ll have a traditional 401k and a Roth 401k.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: And they’re all under the same plan, but they segregate the monies because for a traditional, these are pre-tax dollars. So that example I gave you is if you put in $1,000 into your 401k and you make $100,00 — your traditional 401k — and you make $100,000, you’re taxed as if you made $99,000. For a Roth, it’s after-tax. So same example, if you put $1,000 into your Roth 401k and you make $100,000, you are taxed as if you made $100,000 because you’re not getting that pre-tax deduction. So for these dollars, the money is either taxed going in or coming out. So for a traditional, you’re not taxed going in, but then it grows tax-free inside of that account, and then you’re taxed when it is distributed, hopefully in retirement. For the Roth 401k, you’re taxed going in, so you don’t get that deduction, but then it grows tax-free and when it comes out, it’s not taxed because it’s already been taxed going in. So a lot of people will say Roth, Roth, Roth. And again, it’s going to depend on your plan. It’s going to depend on what you’re trying to achieve. And a lot of people get this wrong as well. So this is another good check on it to make sure that you’re putting the dollars in the right spot. Your match that your employer provides, if there is a match, is always going to go into a traditional account.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Tim Baker: So if there is a match, you’re going to have — some people get it twisted like, I’m 100% in my Roth 401k, but I see money in my traditional, like what gives? And I’m like, well, this is the money that your employer is matching. It’s going to go there, you know, regardless. So it’s really important, you know — so to kind of give you some numbers with 2021, to max out a 401k, a 403b, it’s $19,500. So you can put that in regardless of how much money you make. So that’s really going to be the limit for the 401k. IRAs are a completely different animal. They’re $6,000, this completely separate accounting mechanism. And that’s going to be dependent on your income whether you can put it in directly into a Roth or a traditional IRA and if you get the deduction. And I know we’ve had podcasts on that as well. But the point of this, Tim, is that the open enrollment exercise is a great opportunity to kind of just do a once-over for your retirement savings options and just make sure that one, you’re in the proper allocation but then it’s also in the Roth v. traditional, and then just making sure that you don’t get stuck in that hey, my employer matches 3%, so for 10 years, I’ve just been putting in 3%. You don’t want to do that because more often than not, it’s not going to be enough for you to retire comfortably. So this is another way to kind of check those things and push the envelope a little bit.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I point folks back to Episode 074, when we talked about evaluating your 401k plan, also more recently, Episode 208, when we talked about why minimizing fees on your investments is so important. Certainly relevant here as we talk about employer-sponsored retirement plans where we can see a lot of variabilities in those investment options and in the fees. As we’ve said a couple times now throughout the show, open enrollment is such a great time to take a step back and evaluate the financial plan. And for folks that are going through this process and think, you know, I really see the value in working with someone one-on-one to look at the financial plan holistically, to determine how to prioritize the goals, make some of these decisions around open enrollment, could be debt repayment, investing, tax evaluation, and so forth. We’d love to have a chance to talk with you about the YFP Planning comprehensive financial planning services that we conduct on a one-on-one basis. And you can learn more about those services as well as schedule a free discovery call by going to YFPPlanning.com. As always, thank you so much for listening. We hope you have a great rest of your week and look forward to having you join us again next week.

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YFP 223: How First-Time Home Buyers Navigated the Current Housing Market

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How First-Time Home Buyers Navigated the Current Housing Market

On this episode, sponsored by APhA, Jacob and Michaela Soppe discuss their home buying journey in the current real estate market.

About Today’s Guests

Jacob and Michaela are graduates of Ohio Northern University who moved to eastern Ohio in 2018 so that Jacob could pursue his dream of starting a pharmacy with Southeast Healthcare. Since then, he has successfully grown his pharmacy and offers clinical services including diabetes and hepatitis C clinics. Michaela works at East Ohio Regional Hospital where she collaborates with doctors and patients in the inpatient, outpatient, and long-term care settings. In their spare time, they love to stay active and travel the world. They recently bought their first home and are excited to continue to serve God and their patients in their community.

Summary

In this episode, Tim Ulbrich turns the microphone over to Nate Hedrick, The Real Estate RPh and co-host of the YFP Real Estate Investing Podcast, as he interviews two pharmacists, Michaela and Jacob Soppe, about their home buying journey. Michaela and Jacob share their experience working with YFP’s Real Estate Concierge, their home search, how they determined their home buying budget, and the realities of buying a home in the current real estate market.

Jacob and Michaela weren’t necessarily looking for a home after pharmacy school and focused their energy and funds on paying down student loans and investing. When they were ready to start the home buying process, they didn’t know what to do or how to start, so they contacted Nate Hedrick and started working with the Real Estate Concierge Service. Nate paired the couple with a real estate agent in their area who worked with them diligently until they found a home that met their budget requirements and exceeded their expectations on must-have items like room for a family and plentiful parking.

The couple shares their experience receiving regular emails with listings and changes to the housing market, a day with nine house viewings, their experience with their home inspection, and how their experience at closing differs from what many folks will see in the current market.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Nate Hedrick: Hey, Michaela, Jacob, welcome to the show.

Jacob Soppe: Thanks for having us.

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, thank you for having us.

Nate Hedrick: Absolutely. Excited to chat today. We are talking all things real estate. I’m taking over the Tim and Tim show here on the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast so we can talk a little bit more about real estate today. So again, appreciate you guys joining us.

Michaela Soppe: Absolutely.

Nate Hedrick: So we are here to talk a little bit about navigating the current housing market, right? So you guys are first-time home buyers, just closed about two months ago on your first house, and what we thought we would do is kind of sit down and talk a little bit about that, talk about what it’s like to buy a house in the current market, what it’s like to be a first-time home buyer, how you guys navigated that, and just kind of get that information in front of people. So before we dive too deeply into the real estate side of things, maybe give us a little bit of background on your pharmacy journey so far and kind of what you guys are up to.

Jacob Soppe: I graduated in 2018, and I immediately got a job on rotations. I met with one of my preceptors and they wanted to open a pharmacy, and they wanted me to open it for them, and that’s something I’m interested in, and so I opened it. That was three years ago. And we’re continuing to grow, and I’m very happy with it. We’re a clinic pharmacy, but we also do long-term care, we also do diabetes clinics, and we’re just starting up Hepatitis C clinics.

Nate Hedrick: That’s great.

Michaela Soppe: So I graduated in 2019. We both graduated from Ohio Northern. And we actually got married while I was on rotations, so he’d basically said, “Hey, how do you feel about moving an hour and a half away from Columbus?” I’m like, “OK, that’s great. But I have rotations in Columbus.” So I started working with Rite Aid after I graduated as a pharmacist and kind of floated all over the place because we didn’t really know where we’d be living for sure. And then worked with them for a couple years and at the end of that, in January, I got a job working at a local hospital. So I do mostly inpatient, but I also have a mix of some outpatient stuff and long-term care in there with that as well. So I’m kind of running all over the place. But I love it.

Nate Hedrick: That’s great.

Michaela Soppe: And we finally made it out closer to where Jacob works. So.

Nate Hedrick: That’s nice, especially when, you know, you’ve already got long days at the hospital or at the pharmacy, you don’t want to add an extra long commute to that. So that’s great.

Michaela Soppe: Exactly.

Nate Hedrick: And when you guys graduated from pharmacy school, I know it was different years, but when you graduated, was buying a house kind of always in that mix? Was it always part of the “next step?” Or was this something that came along later?

Jacob Soppe: We knew we wanted to buy a house eventually, but there was student loans in the way that kept me up at night.

Nate Hedrick: Sure.

Jacob Soppe: And I was like, I can’t buy a house until I pay off these, we pay off these loans. And so after about two years, we paid off the loans and that’s when we started looking for a home.

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, it was definitely student loans first and then, you know, it all worked out around the same time where my job brought us instead of an hour and a half away for Jacob, it’s now five minutes away. And at that point, we were like, OK, like we’re ready to find a house because we’re going to be out here for a while.

Nate Hedrick: Wow, yeah. So I know I’ve talked to others who have that feeling of like, man, I cannot buy until these are gone. And so you guys took that and said, yeah, let’s make sure that’s the case. Let’s go all in on the loans and then once that’s done, then we’ll go ahead and buy a house. Do you feel like that was crippling at all? Was it just like, this is what we have to do to get it done?

Jacob Soppe: It was definitely the second one there. We just felt like we had to do it and felt like it was the right way to go for us.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah.

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, it was kind of like, let’s still act like we’re college kids for a couple years, you know, not buy a bunch of brand new stuff. Like most of our stuff came from our families or stuff I had from college. And so until the loans were gone, we didn’t really spend much money on anything else. Like we’d go traveling, but other than that, it was just loans completely. Like our entire paychecks went to it, basically.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, avoiding that lifestyle creep can be a really great way to get ahead and make sure that those loans could be knocked out first. So that’s awesome. Were there any other factors that were holding you guys back? I mean, was the market something that scared you? Or talk to me a little about that too. Was it just the student loans and once those were gone, you were ready to move?

Jacob Soppe: The other thing that was holding us back was, like I said earlier, I was driving an hour and a half one way to work each day, so a total of three hours when we started and Michaela was still in school. We wanted to see where she was going to end up working and then when she ended up moving closer to my work, it worked out because it was like just after we paid off our loans. So we didn’t end up looking for a house at our old employer where I was still driving 45 minutes, and I really liked the idea of living like right next to work and the gym and church — and we’ll get into that later.

Michaela Soppe: I guess something I should say is that we moved four times in three years.

Jacob Soppe: Yeah.

Michaela Soppe: And progressively each time, every time my position changed, basically, going from rotation student to floater at Rite Aid to actually having a store at Rite Aid to getting the job at the hospital. Basically every single time, we moved closer and closer to where Jacob was working. And now, it definitely just where are we going to be settled was kind of like a factor that was holding us back slightly too because like my goal was always to get a job closer to where Jacob was working but just we didn’t know when that would happen. And it ended up being at a really convenient time for us.

Nate Hedrick: That’s great. And that actually, that’s a good segue because one of the things I want to talk about today is choosing the location and some of the steps that go into that kind of getting ready phase of buying a home. And that’s actually Step No. 1 of six steps that we’re going to talk about today. So we put together a video series — and actually, there’s a guide out there, we can link to that in the show notes. But if you head on over to YourFinancialPharmacist.com, we have the “Six Steps to Home Buying.” And what I’d like to do is actually walk through each one of those steps and kind of get your take and your experience as first-time home buyers and see what information we can share with our audience. There’s a lot of people that are probably in your shoes or who are about to be in those shoes here pretty soon where they’re graduating, they’ve got a lot of student loan debt, or they’re ready to buy a home, and now it’s time to figure out, OK, what does that actually look like? And more importantly, how do I do that in this kind of market? Because it is quite the seller’s market. It’s very competitive out there. And so trying to get a home today is more difficult than it’s been before. So we’ll start with the first step, which is making sure you’re ready. A lot of this step includes things like choosing a location, determining what is important to you guys, and also setting a budget and not letting the bank set the budget necessarily, not just going out and asking for the biggest loan we can get but setting our own budget. And so when you guys sat down and said, “OK, we need to figure out if we’re ready,” what did that look like? Was it a formal process for you or was this like, I don’t know, I’ve been on Zillow, let’s go take a look. You know, what was that like for you guys?

Michaele Soppe: There was definitely a lot of Zillow involved. So before we made our final move here closer to work, the apartment we were at, we were initially looking for houses there because it seemed like a good, you know, central location at the time when I was with Rite Aid still. So I think Jacob was on Zillow every single day, just you know, browsing houses for probably half a year or so at least and then continuing once we did move a little bit closer into another apartment, like OK, now we’re getting serious. What are we looking at? It wasn’t like a formal, let’s sit down and talk about this. It was just something we talked about almost every day probably for months just casually like, OK, you know, what do we want out of this? And everything kind of grew from there.

Nate Hedrick: And did you sit down and figure out, again, like not a formalized but at least like a budget for what you wanted to spend? And how did you go about doing that?

Jacob Soppe: One thing that we talked about even before we got married, we decided together that we both definitely wanted to live way below our means, less than 50% of our income, just because that’s what made us feel safe. Just in case one of us lost our jobs.

Nate Hedrick: Sure.

Jacob Soppe: It’s getting harder to find a job, especially with the growing concern of the pharmacist job market. Then also we want to have a family. We’re big givers as well. And so it just takes a lot of that stress off having a big cushion to make all those fit potentially with Michaela either decreasing work hours or going to 0 in the pharmacy in the future.

Nate Hedrick: Sure.

Jacob Soppe: But as far as budget goes, we decided that we wanted to really find a house for $200,000 or less. And I know like especially in Columbus, Ohio, where we’re from, that is very difficult to do in a nice place for a nice home.

Nate Hedrick: Sure.

Jacob Soppe: But the nice thing about where we moved is that the rural Ohio is much lower cost of living, and we were able to meet that goal of finding a home in that budget.

Michaela Soppe: Yes.

Jacob Soppe: Actually, way under budget.

Michaela Soppe: When we started looking at homes, there were a lot of homes we found that we liked that were more like $250,000-300,000. So like I’d say our upper limit kind of became $300,000 with the understanding of we’d much rather not spend $300,000 on the house. So we actually did find a couple that we liked, which we didn’t get a chance to put an offer in on. I mean, the market out here isn’t quite as crazy as it is in Columbus, but stuff still sells fairly quickly. So it ended up being a good thing because our realtor could kind of point us towards the house that we’re in now, which was like half of that but way big enough for both of us and even for a growing family. And yeah, so that — like we had that budget in mind the whole time. And it did shift a little bit as we were looking, but then it all ended up going back to what we were originally thinking.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, I love that. And I think there’s two things that I think are really, really important. One is intentionality, right? You guys stepped back and said like, ‘This is important to us to live slightly below the typical means,’ right? Or ‘We can live at 50% of our income. And here’s why we’re doing that,’ right? The intention behind that is that if we want to cut back on hours, we lose a job, we’re not stressing about this home purchase. And I love that. I think that’s super important. The other thing that you said that I think is interesting because I advise my clients of this all the time is that it’s super easy to fall in love up to whatever amount, right? If I start looking at $500,000 homes, I’m going to love $500,000 homes. The trick is not to exceed that budget if it’s reasonable for your market. And so you guys took a step back and said, “Yeah, you know what? It’s possible to find a nice place under this $200,000 in our market.” And again, I know the West Coasters out there are probably like screaming at their radios right now. But the idea is that, you know, you guys took a look at your market and said, “This is feasible, and so I’m not going to push it beyond my means because I’ve set this budget, and this is realistic for where I’m looking. I think that’s a really great way to set yourselves up for success. So I admire that a lot. The other thing you mentioned is that you leveraged your realtor, and that actually leads us to Step No. 2 or point No. 2 here, which is assembling a team. And this is actually where you and I got connected back in May of this past year. And you know, you guys came to us, the Real Estate Concierge service, which is a service that we offer to pretty much anyone that if you want to get connected with a real estate agent, we will actually help you do that. And so again, if you head on over to YourFinancialPharmacist.com and head over to “Buy a Home,” you can check out the Real Estate Concierge service there, a free way to get connected with an awesome local agent. And again, that’s actually how Jacob and Michaela and I got connected. We got you connected with Sean, and I guess tell us a little bit about that process and what it was like to work with an agent.

Jacob Soppe: Yeah, I want to thank you guys, thank you again for finding Sean, our realtor.

Nate Hedrick: Sure.

Jacob Soppe: We had no clue on like what realtor, who should we go to, and we heard about your service through YFP, and so we reached out to you, you found us a great realtor. Sean has over 10 years of experience as a realtor, he’s also a broker. And he was amazing, mainly because one, he was super responsive, two, he found us homes, including the one we ended up buying, that we would like. And we didn’t think we would like this home, so we didn’t put it on our list of liked homes and must-see homes. But he’s like, “I think you guys will like it anyway. Let’s go.” And we looked at like, I don’t know how many homes.

Michaela Soppe: Well, the one day, I think it was a Saturday, we did nine homes on that Saturday. And he had it all set up like perfectly. And then honestly, the whole process only took a week or two for us. He was just on top of it. And you know, ultimately, we looked at 14 or 15, and this was one of the last ones. And we basically knew going into it like, this is something that we’re definitely open to buying because it was a great price, like great location, can’t really get any better. And I’m just really glad that Sean figured out what we liked so easily and you know, pointed us to this house because it wasn’t really on our radar initially.

Jacob Soppe: And one other thing I want to give him praise for too is every house we went to, he pointed out anything that he thought was a potential problem. And so like he was super honest, he wasn’t in a rush to sell us a home.

Michaela Soppe: Yes.

Jacob Soppe: And so I really trusted him and I think that you’ve really found a great realtor.

Nate Hedrick: Good, I’m so glad. That’s awesome. And that’s exactly what we want to hear, right? I mean, the agents you work with, it has to be somebody you can trust. And it’s so funny, that’s exactly what I try to do for my clients is point out the scary, right? My job is to walk around and look for things that you don’t recognize as bad while you just figure out if you’re going to like the house. That’s awesome that Sean was able to do that for you guys. Were there other members of the team along the way that were important as well? I know obviously the real estate agent is big, but were there other players that jumped in here as well that you found a lot of value in?

Jacob Soppe: Not really.

Michaela Soppe: Honestly, it all happened very fast.

Jacob Soppe: We weren’t even really seriously looking for a home.

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, this was just to get our feet wet.

Jacob Soppe: We were actually in the middle of a lease.

Nate Hedrick: Ok.

Jacob Soppe: We were just like looking at homes, we’re like, ‘Oh, well, it takes about a month or two to start closing on a home, so maybe we should just start looking at homes for a couple months and then –’

Michaela Soppe: See what’s out there.

Jacob Soppe: See what’s out there. And so we started looking at homes and we found one that we really liked, and we’re like, ‘We kind of want to put in an offer. But I still have like six months left on my lease.’ And so I was just like, you know what? Let me call up the landlord tomorrow and see if they’d be OK if we put an offer on a home and moved out early. And we talked to them and we ended up having an agreement, and we were able to leave early. And so we’re like, ‘Oh, great.’ Well, the home that we really liked, apparently some other people really liked it too. So it was already gone by the next day. But that really opened the door for us to seriously look.

Nate Hedrick: That’s great.

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, and I guess that’s something else I’d say is don’t be afraid to break your lease because we lived in three apartments before buying this house, and we broke our lease every time, which obviously —

Jacob Soppe: But it was with the —

Michaela Soppe: With their permission. Like obviously, it’s not ideal. But like, I mean, definitely talk it through with them and see what you can do if you’re ready to buy a house. That shouldn’t be something holding you back because usually, they will work with you and figure out a deal that way.

Nate Hedrick: It’s a great tip, and it’s something that I’ve done with tenants of mine. You know, if I can fill that vacancy quickly, it doesn’t bother me who’s in that house as long as they’re a great tenant. So that makes a lot of sense. That’s a good tip. That also leads me to you talked about putting in an offer and looking for a house, but what about the paying for it, right? So there’s dollars there, so talk to me a little bit about financing and did you guys have an idea of how you wanted to finance the home ahead of time? Or what did that look like?

Jacob Soppe: I mean, I’m really adverse to debt. I really don’t like debt. And Michaela really let me spearhead this. And so we went in — I don’t know, I was like, “You know what, I want to do” — how much down was it? I don’t remember anymore.

Nate Hedrick: 15% down?

Jacob Soppe: Not 15%, 20%.

Michaela Soppe: He would have rather paid cash, but reasonably, he wanted to do 20% down.

Jacob Soppe: Yeah, 20% down at 15-year fixed mortgage. But I kept, you know, I listen to YFP, I listen to a lot of other podcasts as well. And I looked at the offer that IBERIABANK has that you guys work with. And I felt like I really couldn’t pass up taking advantage of the low interest rates going on right now. And I was thinking to myself, ‘Well, if I’m going to pay it off early, I can still do that.’ We didn’t necessarily need to do a lower amount, but we ended up doing 5% down on a 30-year fixed. And we do a lot of investing as well, so we are putting every single dollar that we’re not spending on a mortgage into investments.

Nate Hedrick: I love that.

Michaela Soppe: So like when you have a 3% mortgage with IBERIABANK, we’re like, well, we can make more investing that money, you know, in the meantime than we would if we just kind of threw it at the house.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah.

Michaela Soppe: So that kind of changed his mind over a month or two.

Nate Hedrick: I definitely get that debt aversion, but it also makes a lot of sense if you break down the numbers, does it preserve your capital in a way that allows you to do other things, like you said, travel more, invest better, pay down student debt if you hadn’t already done that? Those are the things that that flexibility can allow. So I love that you guys took a look at that and even though you went in with one notion, you evaluated your options and made kind of the best financial move for you guys. That’s huge. And for those that want to learn more about that, definitely head over to YourFinancialPharmacist.com, and again, head over to the Financing section of the “Buy a Home” section, and you can find out more information about IBERIABANK and some of the pharmacist loan options that are out there. Great way to get a low down payment loan without having to get hit with PMI or things like that. So definitely a good option. So then Step No. 4 would be the search, so actually looking for the property itself. And we’ve alluded to this a little bit, but talk to us about that process. What were things that you guys were looking for? Or what were things that you learned after seeing a couple of houses or on that nine-house day, what were things that you learned along that process?

Michaela Soppe: We learned that house hunting is tiring on that nine-house day.

Nate Hedrick: I imagine.

Michaela Soppe: It was a lot of Zillow, a lot of probably other online websites too for houses. And honestly, Jacob looked at most of that because I got a little overwhelmed with all the options.

Nate Hedrick: Sure.

Michaela Soppe: But something we really wanted, which actually kind of excluded this house initially was we wanted a two-car garage was one of our main things because we’ve kind of done it all. We’ve done garage, no garage, all of that. So this house we ended up buying only has a one-car garage, but it has tons of parking, like a carport. You can have everyone over, and they don’t need to park in the street.

Nate Hedrick: Nice.

Michaela Soppe: So that’s kind of why we initially didn’t look at this house. And Sean was like, ‘Well, let’s go look at it.’ So we started out with Zillow. Once we got hooked up with Sean, he created basically an account for us on — was it MLS? On MLS, and basically every day, he would push emails to us of like, here’s any changes in the housing near you, like new houses, price drops, houses going under contract, coming back on the market, being sold. That was super helpful. You know, he’d send it to us after work each day so that he wasn’t interrupting our day and we could look at it, like them, communicate with him what we wanted to see, what we weren’t interested in, stuff like that. And then from there, he would call Jacob up and be like, “Hey, I have a list of these houses. Let’s go see them tomorrow if you’re free or whatever the next day you were free was.” And I mean, really, he just kind of led the way and was like, here’s houses you liked, here’s houses I think you would like, and kind of all over our price range too. We saw stuff under our budget, over our — not over our budget, but on the higher end of our budget — and kind of just pieced together from there what we really wanted and what was important to us.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, and sometimes just getting out there and seeing it in person can make all the difference. You know, you might think there’s one thing that’s super important or not realize something that is important to you until you get out and see a house that has that particular feature and recognize that. So that’s great. And I also love the tip about the auto-emails. That’s something I recommend for a lot of my clients is get that auto-email so that you are getting daily alerts. It helps us really learn that market so that you can move quickly. If you’re just looking at everything on Friday afternoon and then scrambling to try to react to the properties that have come up in the week, it’s going to be tricky. But if you can get that daily, just take 20 or 30 minutes out of your day to really learn that market, see what properties are coming available, you’ll have a lot more chance at the good properties, and you’ll know what the right price point is because you’re starting to learn that market and see what’s becoming available. So great tips. And then once you actually found the property, again, I know we’ve talked a little bit about this, but talk to me about that negotiation process because Step No. 5 is all about putting that deal together. And so I know negotiations are hard in the current market, there’s not a lot of wiggle room, but what did that look like? What was the putting together the offer process look like?

Michaela Soppe: So Sean was really great with this too because the house that we really liked, ended up buying that we’re living in now, we actually were able to get for asking price.

Nate Hedrick: Nice.

Michaela Soppe: So out here in Eastern rural Ohio, it’s a little different than Columbus, obviously. We knew when we were here he was in contact with the seller’s realtor, and she told him like, “Hey, there’s another offer on the table today. Do they want it or not?” So basically, we were sitting in his house at 8 p.m. like kind of putting together our offer. We knew that this is a house that we would really like, that it could be the house that we’re buying, you know? And we’re like, ‘Well, let’s offer them asking price.’ They’d already dropped the price $5,000 I think. This particular house was on the market for —

Jacob Soppe: Over 30 days.

Michaela Soppe: It was. Some houses go within a week out here, some of them are on the market for months, depending on the houses. You know, there’s not that many people in rural Ohio. But you know, so completely different from the big cities. So basically, we did asking price but we also really wanted this house, so we added an escalation clause just in case, which went I think like $8,000 over maybe.

Nate Hedrick: And could you enlighten our audience about what an escalation clause actually means?

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, so basically if you have an escalation clause on your offer, it means that you’re willing to go up so much more money if the other person bid higher than your or offered higher than you on the house. So like if you’re offering $200,000, the other person offered $205,000, but if you have an escalation clause going up to $210,000, they could take your $210,000 — or I guess $206,000 at that point. You know, something slightly higher than what the other person offered if your clause goes above that.

Nate Hedrick: Yep, that’s spot on. And it’s a great way to protect you from pitting you against yourself, right? Because then you can put in $200,000 and you pay $200,000 if that’s the final price. But if there are other offers, you can still protect yourself by getting higher than — just slightly higher than those next offers. So thank you.
Michaela Soppe: So hopefully it keeps you out of a bidding war.

Nate Hedrick: Exactly.

Michaela Soppe: So yeah, I mean, putting the offer in, I think the deadline was given to us by the seller’s realtor was like 9 p.m. or something. And he faxed over all the papers by 8:55 p.m. and called like, “They’re on their way,” you know?

Nate Hedrick: Nice.

Michaela Soppe: Basically, we knew an hour after that they were —

Jacob Soppe: They verbally accepted our offer.

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, they verbally accepted an hour after that.

Nate Hedrick: Great. Yeah.

Michaela Soppe: It was a very fast process, I feel like, and probably a little less stressful than it is in the big cities for us. But at least putting the offer down was really simple.

Nate Hedrick: Still, yeah, it sounded like crunch time decisions, though, and faxing it then at 0 hours.

Michaela Soppe: It happened really fast.

Nate Hedrick: That’s great. And did you have inspection contingencies on the home as well? I know some people are out there waiving inspection contingencies. What did that look like?

Michaela Soppe: We did have an inspection. I guess something I should mention is we also offered to cover closing costs. I know that’s a big deal-maker or -breaker anymore. But we did have an inspection, and Jacob can talk more about that process.

Jacob Soppe: OK. So

Michaela Soppe: I set it up.

Jacob Soppe: Yeah, so I scheduled an inspection with one of the six recommended inspectors that our realtor gave us contact info for. And so I did some price shopping with them and got to know the guys who did it. And I picked one,s scheduled a time before our closing date, and they came in and they agreed to meet them at the house while they did the inspection and kind of showed me what they were looking at. And then they gave me a full report, photos, and descriptions of the inspection about two days later. So it’s like 80 pages. And we got to look through them, and they highlighted the things that they thought were a big concern and that what we should look at before closing. So what that led to is that we talked — we showed our realtor that report too, and most of the things we’re like, ‘Ah, don’t worry about it. We’ll just fix those problems.’ And our realtor was like, ‘No, no, no, no. The sellers are going to fix those for you. And so we’re going to use this contingency and try to barter for to see what we can get them to fix before we close.’ And we went back and forth probably like four times with the sellers.

Michaela Soppe: That sounds about right.

Jacob Soppe: And our realtor ended up saving us like $5,000 in repairs.

Michaela Soppe: And just like little — some of the stuff was bigger, but some was just little stuff that we’re literally like, it’s fine, you know. And some of the bigger stuff the sellers were like, ‘Well, we’ll split it 50/50 with you guys,’ and Jacob and I are like, ‘OK, that’s fine.’ Sean was like, ‘No. You’re not paying for it.’

Nate Hedrick: I love it.

Michaela Soppe: He’s like, ‘You guys offered asking price. They’re going to pay for it.’ And we’re like, ‘OK, sure, we’ll see what happens.’ And like Jacob said, I mean, they basically agreed to everything except tightening a railing outside. Like literally $5,000 worth of stuff, they got done for us before we closed. Can’t thank Sean enough for that.

Nate Hedrick: That’s great.

Michaela Soppe: Because we had no idea. We’re like, ‘Oh, this is fine. They’re never going to agree to that.’ But they did.

Nate Hedrick: And that’s exactly why you have a good real estate agent to lean on, right? Because again, without that experience, without that know-how, you would have lost out. So that’s a big, important point. The other thing I think is great there is that you guys went into it with this idea of I’m going to offer full asking, and so because of that, like there’s a renegotiation process that may occur. And so there’s two — I think a lot of people assume as soon as you put that offer in, that’s it, you’re done, that’s what you’re buying the house for. But the reality is you get to go back to them, and there’s renegotiations that can occur if you have the right contingencies in place. And again, lean on your agent for that. But that’s a really important factor to making sure you’re getting a good deal. So that’s awesome. Well, that leads to our last step, which is Step No. 6, all about closing. So you’ve gone through, found a house, put the offer in, renegotiated on the fixes and everything, and now you’re ready to actually sign the paperwork. So talk to us a little bit about the closing process. Anything that surprised you or things that you learned during that?

Michaela Soppe: I’d say it was pretty straightforward for us. I mean, basically with all of the negotiations that happened ahead of time, we knew exactly what we were getting, exactly what to expect. We did come walk through the house before we closed, I think the morning that we closed.

Jacob Soppe: The same morning that we closed.

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, just to make sure everything was done, everything was what they said they would do. From there, everything was good. You know, Sean was there at closing with us for the first part. And then once you actually get into the more financial stuff with the bank, your realtor leaves and says, “See you later.” So I guess that was kind of surprising. I’m like, ‘Oh, OK, so he’s not here.’ But it makes sense too just that he would come for a little bit of it.

Nate Hedrick: I remember my first — when I bought my first house, I thought that like my agent was going to be there waiting with the keys as soon as I signed and he was going to drop them in my hand, but then there’s a whole — like title had to actually transfer, and there was the — like you’re working with the bank first and finishing the deal. Was that your experience as well?

Michaela Soppe: So we got the keys at closing.

Nate Hedrick: Nice. That’s pretty rare these days. That’s awesome.

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, we didn’t have to wait until after for it in our case, at least. So I mean, that was kind of what I expected and I guess what I assumed was the norm. But I also wouldn’t be surprised if it does take awhile.

Nate Hedrick: No, that’s good. And again, that is — it’s more rare these days. And again, some states even require you to have different levels of closing with a lawyer present and things like that. So it’s nice when you can actually do it all in one fell swoop like that. That’s excellent.

Michaela Soppe: And we had kind of asked Sean like, do we need an attorney to be there with us? Are we good? He’s like, ‘Well, unless you have any questions about the stuff that’s already been fixed or gone over,’ like everything he basically had already gone over everything with us and there wasn’t any surprises.

Jacob Soppe: And there’s a lawyer at the title company.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, and depending on your state, that may vary, right? Some states will actually require that you have a lawyer present or that they’re actually the one doing the closing with you. But again, in Ohio where we are, that’s not the case. So good to lean on your agent there for the local guidelines. Well, great. Well Jacob and Michaela, I really appreciate you guys sharing your story. I think, again, it’s a tricky time to be a first-time home buyer, but you guys are proof that it can be quite easily done. And again, YFP is here to help you guys if there’s something to make the process easier. We’re along for that same ride. Any final thoughts or other tips you can share with our listeners?

Jacob Soppe: Well, I can share one thing that we did not include in our search talk, but we were actually looking at a home that we could potentially rent out in the future.

Michaela Soppe: Oh, yes.

Jacob Soppe: Once we outgrow it. It might be awhile before we outgrow it because there’s plenty of space here, but we were looking for a home that we potentially could rent out or even hack out. And we found this home, and the offer we put in fits the 1% Rule that a lot of landlords like to follow when they’re looking for a good home but also I wanted to make sure we bought a home that we could increase the value on. And there’s a lot of opportunity to do that in this home. But we also found that this was — in the neighborhood of like 20 homes, this was like the second lowest valued home in the neighborhood. So we feel like we can really use that to help increase the value of this home if we end up selling it.

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, and part of the plan with this home too — and we’ll be here for awhile — but eventually, it’s something that we could easily rent out in the future because it’s a great size for a rental home, and it’s actually really close to the highway. Like you can see the highway, you can’t necessarily hear it all the time. But it’s in its own little neighborhood but in a really good location for people just passing through. So that was something that was always in the back of our mind that we knew we kind of wanted, our realtor knew we wanted it, you knew we were looking for it. So that was something that just kind of like fit together well with the home we ended up getting as well.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, that’s awesome. I think that, you know, your shameless plug for our other show, the YFP Real Estate Investing podcast with David Bright and I as cohosts, if you haven’t checked that out, definitely do so. And maybe we’ll have Jacob and Michaela on that show once they turn this property over and start renting it out. I love it. Well again, guys, really appreciate you guys being with us today and sharing your story. Where can people reach out if they want to get in touch with you?

Jacob Soppe: They can reach me at my email, [email protected]. Soppe is spelled S-o-p-p-e.

Nate Hedrick: Perfect. Well, I’ll make sure to put that in the show notes. And again, thank you guys so much for being here.

Michaela Soppe: Yeah, thank you, Nate.

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YFP 222: Why Estate Planning is Such an Important Part of the Financial Plan

Posted on by yfpadmin

Why Estate Planning is Such an Important Part of the Financial Plan

On this episode, sponsored by Thoughtful Wills, estate planning attorneys, Notesong Thomson and Nathan Kavlie, discuss estate planning and its importance in the financial plan.

About Today’s Guests

Notesong and Nathan, Co-Founders, Approachable Attorneys, Thoughtful Wills

Notesong and Nathan met in junior high in Jamestown, North Dakota – a friendship forged in orchestra concerts and speech meets – much laughter in hallways and early-90s nerdiness.

They both started law school in 2001, bonding over the exciting concepts they were learning, the intense 1L reading requirements, and Legally Blonde (released that summer).

Years later, Nathan asked Notesong to help create a law firm that would emulate the automation of LegalZoom but pair it with actual attorneys to create custom, lawyer-drafted Wills at an affordable price point. Thankfully, Notesong said yes!

This friendship is our firm’s foundation – and with each passing year, both grow stronger.

Notesong Srisopark Thompson, Co-Founder | Attorney, Thoughtful Wills

Caring for so many ill and injured children led Nurse Notesong to law school – she wanted to advocate for children from multiple avenues beyond the hospital bedside. After practicing as a pediatric emergency/trauma nurse for over 18 years, Notesong took a break from paid work to be a full time mom to her three sweet and spunky kids – one of her most challenging and rewarding roles. Along the way, she and her husband caved, and their family also welcomed two fluffy sheepdogs who are constantly at her side as she helps translate estate planning into terms and concepts that are understandable – echoing her signature nursing style when she explained painful procedures (such as IV starts) to her tearful and terrified patients as they clung to their parents.

Having dealt with the yuck of creating her own estate plan, Notesong ensures the Thoughtful Will experience respects and addresses the anxieties of parents and non-parents alike, helping make the process as pleasant as possible. She infuses TLC into every aspect of our brand of approachable lawyering. Attention to detail is crucial in both nursing and law – Notesong doesn’t miss a beat.

Nathan Jay Kavlie, Co-Founder | Attorney, Thoughtful Wills

In high school, Nathan knew his science fair presentation was ready when he could explain the enzyme pathways to his grandmother. That ability to translate concepts was rewarded when he won awards at the international science fair, three years in a row.

Many years later after repeated nagging by his Uncle David, Nathan turned his attention to wills and discovered this whole new area of law that desperately needed translation for normal people. He took a year to learn and study wills & trusts law – rewriting the standard “legalese” will into something elegant and understandable. The Thoughtful Will is one of his proudest accomplishments to date (it’s a three-way tie with his marriage and rehabilitating two rescued terriers).

Summary

This week, Tim Ulbrich taps into a topic not yet explored on the YFP Podcast, estate planning. Estate planning attorneys and co-founders of Thoughtful wills, Nathan Kavlie and Notesong Thompson, discuss what an estate plan is, who needs one, the value of a living trust, and why estate planning is an important part of the financial plan.

Thoughtful Wills solves the issue of unpleasant experiences with attorneys, delaying the start of estate planning. Nathan and Notesong have worked to make death planning and lawyering approachable for everyone.

Nathan explains that estate planning is not just about your estate, but everything you own, even non-physical items, when you die. Estate planning is death planning, using our system of laws to make decisions, spreading goodness even after your death. Anyone who has children, people who have pets, married couples, anyone with some assets, and people who have family members that they care about should consider estate planning as a set of directives in the event of your death. Notesong explains that because circumstances in life change, revisiting the estate plan annually is a good idea.

Nathan and Notesong give a general overview of the estate planning documents, including the will, the revocable living trust, other relevant documents of estate planning, and how they work together to protect your estate after your death. Nathan details what probate is and how it affects a person’s assets when they die without a will, versus with an estate plan. Notesong provides an overview of the healthcare directive and the durable power of attorney, which authorize someone to make decisions on your behalf if you are incapacitated.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Notesong and Nathan, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Notesong Thompson: Thanks for having us, Tim.

Nathan Kavlie: Thank you.

Tim Ulbrich: So before we dive into all things estate planning, a topic that we surprisingly haven’t covered in detail on this show before, I’d love for you both to introduce yourselves and give us an overview of the work that you do with Thoughtful Wills. So Notesong, why don’t you kick us off? And then I’ll have Nathan follow.

Notesong Thompson: Sure. Well, it’s nice to meet everybody on the podcast. I am based in Madison, Wisconsin, and I am mom of three young kids — young, spunky kids. We have two sheepdogs who are very needy and wife of a really busy corporate attorney. But yeah, I’m a lawyer and I previously practiced as an emergency trauma nurse for 20 years, so I bring a lot of different perspectives to estate planning.

Tim Ulbrich: And we’re going to tap into some of your healthcare background a little bit later when we get into some of the healthcare directive pieces of the estate planning process. So very good. Nathan, go for it.

Nathan Kavlie: Yeah, so my name is Nathan Kavlie. I live in Minneapolis. Notesong and I, actually, we met in high school in Jamestown, North Dakota, back in the early ‘90s. But I am a lawyer. I was not a nurse, but I did work in a video store for several years, which, you know, oddly, I think was really I think formative, as much as probably anything else in how I sort of approach the world and my work, which is just sort of — we’re all customer service agents I think in the past. And if you aren’t, thinking that way I think you really are kind of missing the boat because I feel like especially in this new world where with masks and distancing, I think if you’re not spending time thinking about how to be friendly and approachable, you are not being friendly and approachable. I think you’re just missing a chance to sort of make people feel welcome and taken care of. But yeah, I live in Minneapolis with my husband, our two rescue dogs, yeah. Life is good.

Tim Ulbrich: Great comment, Nathan, about the importance of customer service and a priority. I actually — you made me think of the book by the founder of Zappos, “Delivering Happiness,” and great story about just that perspective and how important it is no matter what industry that one is in. So before we get into the weeds of estate planning — we’re going to try to make it as lively and fun to really highlight the importance of estate planning as a part of the broader financial plan — but before we get into that, tell us a little bit more about Thoughtful Wills. What is Thoughtful Wills? What’s the problem that you’re trying to solve? And what is the offering that you have, Nathan?

Nathan Kavlie: Yeah, so I think the problem we’re trying to solve is most lawyers are not very friendly or approachable. They kind of suck to work with. And people know that, right? There’s a reason why people — I’m sure you guys at YFP have heard of how often do you ever get clients that come in and they say, “Well, we’ve got all of our estate planning documents ready.”

Tim Ulbrich: Rarely.

Nathan Kavlie: Rarely, because they know that it’s like, you know, you have to take time off from work and go meet with this lawyer who’s probably going to make you feel like an idiot and charge a lot of money. And that’s the experience that I kept running into over and over again amongst my friends. And so you know, it was sort of an epiphany, like why does it have to be that way? And it doesn’t. We can just work online with people all over the country. We can — instead of sitting down and having this meeting, which is long and frankly then becomes expensive because we’re lawyers, right? We sell our time. We don’t do bookshelves, we don’t sell electric cars. We sell our time. And so you know, we can use technology efficiently to sort of save time, reduce expenses, and hopefully then if we’re being really sort of thoughtful about all of this process, we can sort of create kind of an experience for you that is sort of shockingly friendly and approachable. And that’s really what we’ve sort of done is sort of looked at every piece of our process to sort of ask ourselves, like is this understandable to normal people? Does it feel welcoming? Is somebody going to read this and feel supported? And if it doesn’t, then we work on it and frankly, we keep working on it over and over again just because when are you ever like perfect, right? So we’re sort of on a quest to really make lawyering approachable is I think really the crux of what we do.

Tim Ulbrich: So making lawyering approachable is really a big part of what you guys do. And folks can go to ThoughtfulWills.com/YFP and learn more. And we’ll reference that link again later in the show. I was telling my wife about this interview last night, and the way I was describing it, based on our experiences with a young family, going through the estate planning process, we really delayed ourselves in that process probably longer than we should because No. 1, it wasn’t exciting. It’s pretty boring, right? In my mind, it was going to be somewhat painful. And I felt like the industry wasn’t very transparent. As I look at what you guys have built, you really have addressed all three of those. And excited about what that means for not only pharmacists but also other professionals that want to do this part of the financial plan and do it well. Notesong, tell me about your background as an emergency — if I heard correctly, emergency care nurse. What about that experience led you to want to go back to law school and then specifically do the work that you’re doing now with Thoughtful Wills?

Notesong Thompson: Well, it’s funny you say that because Nathan and I reconnected after several years. And ironically, we were actually in law school at the same time. Started in 2001 and then we graduated in — did we graduate in 2004?

Nathan Kavlie: Uh huh.

Notesong Thompson: And I practiced law for a little bit in the juvenile defense world. I did some public defender work, guardian at litem, and pediatric nursing really drove me to the law because I saw so many things at the bedside that really, really troubled me. It just — it had me just wondering going home at night thinking, why is it like this? Why is this child with this abuser? Why is this informed consent issue an issue at all? So I will admit, nursing is my favorite love. And Nathan had to do a little bit of convincing to get me to practice law again, right, Nathan? And largely it was because of what Nathan talked about before is the traditional legal process is in many ways really miserable. And I practiced at a big law firm, and like I said, I did some more public defender work. But ugh. It was just yucky. And I went through the — I went through the estate planning process at my husband’s fancy law firm, and I just want to be clear that there is a place for attorneys and fancy law firms and for big estate planning too. And I’ve got to tell you, the only thing I remember going through that process myself was how much it was filled with yuck. And it was so anxiety-provoking, emotionally challenging, and we were doing this with a friend who took care of us. But it just was yucky, all of it. And so when Nathan finally convinced me to join in, it was after he heard me on a show called “Moms Every Day,” and he recognized that moms make a lot of decisions and keep the ball rolling forward with things that keep getting back-burnered. And as a mom of three young kids, you know, I — and having worked in healthcare in the nursing, I was faced with life-and-death issues every day. And even with that, at the bedside during a code, working with pharmacists who are handing me syringes of epinephrine and just on the ready — I love pharmacists, by the way. Can I just say? They’re the calm in the storm. And no matter what chaos is going on, the pharmacists were there, they just showed up in their cape and quietly handed us the meds we needed. It was like a miracle. But you know, that’s the thing. It’s the best part that I’ve found about being an estate planning lawyer now with the nursing background is that I still get to give TLC to our clients. And I think they are a little bit shocked when I say, “We’re going to take really good care of you and your family.” So yeah, that’s where I’m tying in nursing into estate planning. And it’s been really wonderful.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And as I mentioned, estate planning isn’t a topic we’ve covered a lot in detail on this show before but certainly an important piece of life and one’s financial plan. And we’re not going to be able to get into all the nooks and crannies and aspects of estate planning, but I do think we’ll be able to lay a good foundation and hopefully get folks somewhat excited about learning more about this topic and some next steps that they can take in their own journey. So Nathan, as I was doing research on Thoughtful Wills and your background, one of your claims to fame that’s listed on the website is having a lifelong obsession with making the complex understandable. And so I want to tap into that a little bit here as we just start the conversation of what exactly is estate plan? What do we mean by an estate plan? Who might need one? Why is it important? And what are some of the various documents at a high level that make up the estate plan?

Nathan Kavlie: Yeah. Let’s emulate — I think let’s start with just the word, right? So we’re talking about estate plan, and estate — so this is the weird part. Estate planning is not just about your estate. Estate really just means like all of your stuff when you die. So when you die, all of your cars, your dirty laundry, your CDs, your art, it’s all — everything you own. And not just physical possessions but if you sort of owned patents or if you wrote some music, all of those pieces of property are your estate. And so we’re planning for that. But the problem is it’s like sanitation engineers, right? You know, like garbage truck people? And it’s like, they’re like, “Now we’re going to be sanitation engineers.” Really, what we do is death planning. But nobody likes to say that. And so they’re like, “Well, let’s call it estate planning.” But the thing is that it’s bigger and more important than just your stuff. Right? Because that’s the thing, it’s like, how many people as they’re lying in the hospital bed dying are thinking about like, ‘Wow, I wonder who’s going to get my couch?’ Right? ‘I wonder who’s going to take care of my silverware collection?’ No one cares about that. You care about your family. And your family is not part of your estate because you don’t own your children, right, as much as people might want to. So we’re planning for death. The problem — and this is why people don’t think about it and I think probably at some level why you haven’t done this as a podcast is because it’s morbid. We’re talking about when you die or we’re talking about when you’re in a coma and can’t communicate. Like these are not fun topics. But they’re important topics because you care about the people in your life. And this is the law’s mechanism for how to do that. Our system of laws, it’s kind of amazing. And I feel like — and that’s the thing I try to sort of impress upon people. It’s like, these documents are frankly like superhero documents because they allow you after you’re dead — I mean, you’re gone. But you are still making effect — you’re having effects in the world. You are actually still spreading goodness and care in the world because of these documents that you’ve created. And that’s kind of amazing I think. And you know, our legal system wouldn’t necessarily have to operate that way. There’s no reason why we would sort of say like, Jim died, and he left this fancy house. And we’re going to let Jim decide who gets the house, right? We could say, “Everybody gets a piece of the house,” right? We’ll sell it and put it into the tax coffers. Or Jim’s oldest son would get it. Right? But no, we give people a lot of control to affect these changes if they choose to. And that’s the thing, that’s what estate planning is. It’s you are making affirmative choices to sort of change the world in the ways that you can by using these documents. So the bad news is we’re talking about death, but the good news is we’re talking about this amazing set of documents that can really change the world for the better for the people that you love and your pets because I don’t have kids so I’m always thinking about my pets. So that’s what we’re talking about. We’re talking about death. And I think just put it out there. You know, we don’t introduce ourselves as death lawyers, but that is what we do. And it’s really important. And that’s the thing, it’s like why should people do this? Well, you know, I guess the thing is like you have people in your life that you love. Do you have young children that you care about? Do you? Right? If you have young children that you care about, probably you care about who would raise them if you and your partner were in an automobile accident or something and you both died unexpectedly, right? And I get why people don’t want to think about it. I mean, I think about one of — my oldest dog is almost 18, and the thought of her passing kind of makes me want to curl up in a ball. So I get why parents, it’s like, it’s a huge hurdle to actually say like, let’s affirmatively think through all of those gory scenarios. But the fact is, it’s like, if you want to really take care of your kids, you have to do this. Right? That’s just point blank. If you care about your kids, you should do this. So who should do this? Who should do an estate plan? People with kids, people with pets they care about, people who care about their family. You know, the thing is is that our system of laws also does have a set of default plans. Every state has a system of default plans. So if you don’t do your will, it’s not like all of your property just goes to the state. There’s sort of a mechanism in place for who should get things. And you know, for a lot of people, that system works great. If you both die in a car crash, it’s not like your children are just wandering the streets, begging for money. There is a system in place to sort of decide who should care for your children, right? So I mean, there are these default plans in place. So just to be clear, the “if you don’t do this,” it’s not catastrophic. But yet if you don’t decide who should take care of your kids, most often all of your relatives fight about it in the courts. You know? I don’t know. But there are default plans. The default plans are not the end of the world, but they are not your choices. And there’s chaos and trouble involved with it because there are lawyers and there are custody hearings and it’s all kinds of yuck. And the way that you opt out of the default plan is by creating these estate planning documents.

Tim Ulbrich: And I appreciate, Nathan, what you said about — and I’ve never heard this perspective before, and I like it a lot, which is that we have a system, which has given folks a lot of opportunity to make decisions that might otherwise be made for them. And so I think if we take that perspective and apply it to the estate plan, it’s not as morbid — still a morbid topic — but you know, now we’re in that conversation of, OK, I’ve got some decisions to make. I’ve got some autonomy. I’ve got some choice. And you know, you’re touching on that concept of probate, essentially that process where if folks don’t make these decisions, yeah, there is a net that’s in place but it might not be the desired state that one has, whether it be related to those that are loved ones and their family or even resources that they have. One follow-up question I have here, Nathan, because I think we probably have many folks listening that maybe this is very obvious that they need these documents or have to update them, maybe there’s young children or just children altogether involved, maybe there’s substantial or growing assets, and I think that tends to be fairly obvious. But often, I’ll get the question from folks that maybe someone who’s more of a recent graduate, perhaps doesn’t have a partner or significant other, there’s no kids involved. So is there a point when it’s a clear like, someone should have an estate plan in process? Or is there a period in time where some folks it might be not now, but we need to look at this in the future?

Nathan Kavlie: Yeah, I mean, if you’re single and don’t have any kids and you get along with your family, you’re probably good to go. I can’t be certain, right? I mean, to be absolutely certain, I’d need to do an analysis of your actual circumstances, but if you’re single and get along with your family, you’re probably fine. If you’re single and you don’t get along with your family, you should definitely create an estate plan. One of my best friends from law school is totally estranged from his mom and his sister, and it’s like, well, you need to do an estate plan then because otherwise they’ll get all of the stuff. And that’s not what he wants to have happen. So when you have children, you know, when you’re pregnant or when you’re thinking about kids — and actually, the thing is when you’re thinking about kids is when you should do this ideally. But anytime in that process is great. We get a lot of clients that sort of say like, our due date is x months away, should we do this now? Or should we wait until the baby is born? And the answer always is, do it now. Because when the baby gets here, you will not have any time. You won’t even have time to sleep. So do it now. Do it when you’re thinking about having kids. We can write the documents to basically sort of already account — a lot of what we do as estate planning is we sort of create documents that anticipate many different futures. Because we don’t know what the future will hold. But we know there are some things that might happen. You might have children. You might not have children. And so we can sort of draft the documents as an either-or situation. So when you’ve got kids, when you get married is a good time as well. Yeah. And if you have some assets, that’s always good. I mean, it’s one of those things, I think people think of it sort of like senior photos, right, where it’s like, it’s going to be expensive and you just do it once. And I think it’s a real disservice. I think it’s driven, of course, by awful lawyers that are really expensive and really unpleasant. But I think it’s sort of weird that we think that like you should only do this once because you will know exactly what your life is going to be like. And circumstances change.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that’s true, right, with the rest of the financial plan. You know, we always say when you’re looking at investing or retirement or insurance or whatever it may be, it’s an evolution. It’s a journey, right? And that was, Notesong, a question I have for you before we come back and talk with Nathan about the living trust and then some of the other documents. This concept of OK, it’s a lot of work to get it done but is it something I should be looking at annually or every five years or as life events change? And I’m looking at the site where you’ve got a two-step process, which is evaluating the plan and then wanting to avoid probate and you know, a couple different options where one is you’re creating your plan in that Phases 1 and 2 where you’re then updating that or having some ongoing support, so talk to us a little bit more about what you typically do or recommend with folks in terms of OK, yes, we do this upfront work, but then how often we should be evaluating this.

Notesong Thompson: Sure, absolutely. That’s actually a very common question that we get all the time. We’ve reorganized the way to think about this because the whole process is yucky and it’s overwhelming. So Nathan and I really strive to break it down into nuts and bolts. And so on the ThoughtfulWills.com/YFP page, we’ve created two boxes that talk about Phase 1 and Phase 2. Phase 1 is essentially creating your plan. This is where all of the drafting happens and we can customize it as much as our clients want. And then we also ensure that the document is signed correctly and questions can be asked without, you know, worry of the clock ticking because we also want to try to avoid that because that’s always a fear is how much am I going to get charged for this email exchange? Like we try to avoid that. And then Phase 2 is really equally important because if you get a revocable living trust, it’s important that you actually fund that trust. And there are certain mechanisms that have to — that are in place that need to happen in order to put stuff into that trust. And so that is all under the umbrella of Phase 2. And so as far as like reviewing your estate plan, for example, my husband and I drafted our estate plan — gosh, 14 years ago. And we haven’t had a lot of major life changes. A lot of our — we’re still close to the people we’ve named as legal guardians and backups, my sisters and my sister’s mom, and so luckily, if nobody’s developed a gambling habit where we need to change up who’s going to be the trustee or durable power of attorney. That being said, it’s always — we think it’s always a good idea to review your plan every year, just to make sure your wishes are still reflected. And then also, the revocable living trust, it takes a little bit more work, a little bit more follow-up with that every year. But making sure that you fund your trust, make sure that you are updating your non-probate assets too — and I’ll let Nathan go into that later — but you want to make sure that all of your beneficiaries are up-to-date. So it really drives me crazy when all these online will-making services have really now come onto the scene in light of the pandemic, and everybody facing life-and-death issues, they talk about like all these unlimited amendments and things like that. But what they are not talking about is all of the legal requirements that are required in order to make sure that they’re valid, they’re actually valid. So every time you change your plan or you do a formal amendment, if it’s required, you also have to make sure that it’s re-executed, meaning signed and notarized where necessary. And that’s all based on your state. Each state has really super specific nuances and that’s where we rely on our local counsel attorneys in each state to help us ensure that we’re following their state’s laws exactly to a T.

Tim Ulbrich: And Nathan, Notesong mentioned the revocable living trust, the importance that document can play and I heard you guys talk about this on another podcast as really a magical and powerful document that when utilized and funded correctly can sidestep the high cost and hassle of probate and how important that is for professionals, especially professionals who have a higher income potential. So talk to us more about what is the living trust and the importance and the value that that plays.

Nathan Kavlie: Yeah. So I want to sort of back up before I get to that if that’s OK.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Nathan Kavlie: So I think we should first talk about the will, which is really sort of the foundational document to estate planning. I think most people know what a will is. It’s in TV, right? They all gather when somebody dies and reads the will and then people are all pissed off. But the will is the key, right? The will is sort of the foundational document where everybody sort of — where you create essentially your last testimony about what you want to have happen. And so that sort of superhero document that I talk about — I mean, the set of superhero documents. The will is the first one that people do. In like the 1960s, lawyers starting using what are called revocable living trusts. It was sort of a newer concept back then, but now it’s very subtle but it sort of was a little bit kind of cutting-edge back then, but now it is not cutting-edge because, you know, frankly, who wants to have — when you’re talking about your babies and protecting their assets, people don’t want to be experimental in the law. Right? You want settled law.

Tim Ulbrich: Not the place to be cutting-edge.

Nathan Kavlie: Yeah, exactly. So it was cutting-edge in the 1960s. It is not cutting-edge in the 2020s. Basically, so when you create a will or if you don’t have a will, basically, everything goes through probate. And I think it’s first important to say, what is probate? Because I think everybody sort of hears — if you listen to enough or really any sort of financial wellness sort of podcasts, everybody knows that probate is awful, but I don’t know that people necessarily know what probate is. And probate is our legal system’s sort of mechanism to wind up the affairs of people after they die. So it’s important to understand it’s a judicial process. And that’s why it’s expensive and a hassle because you have lawyers involved and you have a judge involved and then they have to send notice to the interested parties and there are hearings and it takes a long time. We probably all know somebody who is like, “Yeah, my grandfather’s estate took 15 years to probate.” That’s what it is. It’s — but it’s an important process because, you know, since we give the dead a lot of control over their assets, we need to make sure that we know what they really wanted. And if they didn’t make a will, then we need to make sure that the process, the sort of default plans, are followed correctly. And so that’s what probate does. So it’s an important thing, but it’s an expensive hassle. And especially — just somebody has to deal with it, right? You don’t just get to turn it over to the lawyers. Like somebody has to manage the process. And so there are ways that you can avoid probate. One of them is called non-probate assets. And I think people are becoming more and more familiar with these. These are things like life insurance and retirement accounts. Life insurance and retirement accounts, when you open them, you choose a beneficiary. So you say, you know, “When I die, this asset will go to my spouse or to my kids,” or something. And because the asset has a built-in beneficiary mechanism, it doesn’t go through the probate process because our system of laws honors life insurance’s own mechanism.

Tim Ulbrich: Makes sense.

Nathan Kavlie: Assets that are inside of a trust are non-probate. It’s like a $10 legal sentence, but it doesn’t really make sense without context. But the idea here is like your goal — because your house is not a non-probate asset. Your house is a probatable asset. So are your cars. Your cars are a probatable asset. So are your rights to music you wrote and your clothes and all of those things — some bank accounts — all of those things go through probate automatically. But if you move them into a trust, they can avoid probate. And so then the grand idea is well, let’s create a trust that will house these assets and then they can skip probate. Caveat: If you live in Connecticut, you don’t get to skip probate entirely. But this still is a very — it minimizes the hassle and the cost. So just a little caveat there. So the goal here, you create your own trust. Trusts are about as old as wills. They sort of hearken back to like the crusades in England. When the lord was taking up the holy cause and going out to the Middle East, you know, what happens to their assets? And so that’s where trusts came about. They were like, well, you can hold my assets, but you hold them for my benefit. You don’t own these lands. You’re just going to hold them for me because I’m going to be gone for like 12 years or something. So trusts — and trusts are used in many different contexts, not just in estate planning because like some charities are structured as trusts. But estate planning uses a lot of trusts. We can set up trusts for your children to protect their inheritance. We also use these living trusts. So it’s lots of different trusts, but this is the revocable living trust that we’re talking about here. And what it ends up doing is it becomes sort of a companion piece to a will so that together your will and your trust take care of all of your stuff together. But the will ends up becoming a much less important piece of this process. The will ends up acting like a backstop so that if you forget to move any of your assets into the trust, the will says, “Throw all these assets into your trust.” So if you forget to — or you know, if you sign all of your documents and you have like a Beetlejuice car accident on your way home and everybody dies, right, it’s like you won’t have had time to move your assets into the trust. So the will acts as a backstop. The will still is important because the will is still going to contain who should take care of your children, who should be the legal guardians, who should be the guardians of your pets. So the will is still an important document, but when we talk about like where your money should go, setting up trusts for your kids, or if you have somebody who has special needs, all of that goes into the revocable living trust. And we’ve described it as sort of a magic law box. Right? It’s like you create this account that you put your assets into, but it really only works if you put your assets in. Otherwise it’s just sort of really expensive paper. And so that’s when we talk about like Phase 1 versus Phase 2, Phase 1 is when we talk through how many kids do you have? Who should take care of your kids? Where should your stuff go? When we’re talking about Phase 1 and creating your plan, I don’t actually care about any of your assets, which is weird because a lot of people come and they’re like, “Well, I want to tell you all about my assets.” And it’s like, I don’t — it’s sort of jarring for them, their, essentially their death lawyer to be like, “We don’t actually care about your assets right now.” Right? And the reason I don’t care about them at this stage is because I don’t know what you’re going to own when you die.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Nathan Kavlie: No one does, right? So right now, we’re creating a plan that really is just sort of broad strokes. And so we talk more in percentages, right? Like half goes to my spouse and half is divided amongst my kids.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Nathan Kavlie: And whatever you own, you know, that’s the key because we just don’t know, right? So yeah, during Phase 1, I don’t care about your assets at all. At all. That’s where Phase 2 comes in because once we create your plan and we talk about who should take care of your kids and who should get your stuff, then it’s time to actually talk through your assets. Do you have some retirement accounts? Do you have an LLC? You know, maybe you have an investment property as well as your primary residence. Maybe you have a cabin in a different state. Maybe you have some expensive cars. All of those assets, then we start talking about the actual assets because we need to move them inside of your magic law box.

Tim Ulbrich: I mean this honestly, Nathan, I think that is the best explanation I’ve heard of the will and the revocable living trust in about a five or so minute period. So thank you. You’ve lived up to —

Nathan Kavlie: Well thank you.

Tim Ulbrich: — the obsession of making the complex understandable. It was really, really good, and I hope folks will hit rewind and listen to that as well because I think it can feel overwhelming, and that was very digestible. So thank you for that.

Nathan Kavlie: Thank you. Well, I appreciate it.

Tim Ulbrich: Notesong, pressure’s on now. So we talked about the will and the living trust. But that’s not it. We can’t stop there. There are other estate planning documents that we need to be thinking about. So talk us through some of those other documents and what they mean and why they’re important.

Notesong Thompson: Yes. Well, I mean, it’s the world we’re living in right now. Tim, you and I were talking about this before, but everybody is facing life and death right now with the pandemic in our face and its ever-evolving whatever it is. And so the phrase “accidents and illness happen without warning; there are no guarantees in life,” it just has so much more meaning today. And the healthcare directive and durable power of attorney are equally two magical estate planning documents that operate while you’re still alive. And the magic about them is that they both authorize somebody to act on your behalf if you’re not able to, if you’re incapacitated, if you’re in a coma. And we used to previously refer to these initially as coma documents because we tried to talk to people about them as incapacity documents and nobody got it. And they’d be like, ‘Oh, I’m fine. I’m young. I run every day. I do this. I’m so healthy. I’ll come back to you after when I’m older.’ And you know, we never want to pressure people, but at the same time, in that kind of blunt, very candid way, we just say, “OK. Quick question, do you drive a car?” You know? And it is, these are miserable topics. But we have to also consider that these things happen without warning. So both documents authorize someone to act on your behalf if you’re not able to. They authorize someone to act as a power of attorney. And so with the durable power of attorney document, they act as your durable power of attorney as it relates to finances and property. In your healthcare directive, you’re also a power of attorney, but it’s all related to your healthcare. They can make decisions for you. And the healthcare directive actually has two parts to it. The first part is power of attorney for healthcare. The second part is what a lot of people know as the living will. And that’s where you can get really specific as it relates to whether or not you want a feeding tube or assisted breathing, CPR, if you want altered CPR. I really have taken on the healthcare directive as my baby because I was my dad’s backup backup backup healthcare agent when he took his last breath. And as awful as it was, the saving grace there was that — you know, and he was a physician and he knew the importance of identifying exactly what he didn’t want — as awful as it was to be at the bedside, I was able to also give the poor resident who had to show up at 3:30 in the morning with a crying daughter at the bedside, I was able to tell her, “No compressions, just morphine, oxygen.” You know? And honestly, I think one of the greatest gifts that you can give your loved ones is that healthcare directive because otherwise, as Nathan mentioned before, estate planning is just rife with chaos and emotion. And in that moment, you don’t want somebody fighting over what your loved one wanted at the end of their life. So you can get really, really specific about that and also like organ donation as well. And so I think it’s a really powerful document that way. The durable power of attorney, you know, equally too. It seems like a no-brainer to have this in place, but the thing is you mentioned Zappos and wow, I mean, I know that — is it Tony Hsieh?

Tim Ulbrich: Tony Hsieh, yep.

Notesong Thompson: I’m not sure if I’m pronouncing — Tony Hsieh. I mean, the last I read, sadly, tragically, is that he died without an estate plan and that his dad and brother are in court, fighting to be able to take control of his finances, which are in the billions. And so not only is that a hassle, but they have to go through so many court proceedings, it’s expensive, and they’re trying to grieve the loss of their son and brother. So having this simple durable power of attorney in place lets your person of choosing and their backup, and you’re going to choose to have them as co-agents in case you want to have like a checks and balances. That could be a whole show in and of itself is choosing a durable power of attorney. That is equally important because you want to make sure that you’re choosing somebody who’s going to manage your finances while you’re not able to — or equally like if you’re out of the country and you want to move on a property that’s come available and you’ve been looking at it for 20 years, that person can also step in and act on your behalf in that capacity too. And that’s the durable part of it.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And we’ve scratched the surface on these documents but really important points. We’ve talked about the will, we’ve talked about the revocable living trust briefly, the healthcare directive, durable power of attorney, and as I mentioned at the beginning, the goal is not that folks hear this and say, “OK, I’ve got the textbook on estate planning,” but rather hopefully is stimulating some interest and a conversation among folks about where am I at in this process? What do I need? What do I not have? And what steps do I need to take? And I hope folks will check out ThoughtfulWills.com/YFP, where they can learn more about the work that you guys are doing as well as the services that you offer. I also suspect that we might have some folks listening that are saying, “You know what, I’ve done this or I’m going to do this, but perhaps Mom or Dad or Mom and Dad, it isn’t something they have done. And how do I initiate that conversation?” And it reminds me back to Episode 108 where I talked with Cameron Huddleston about how to effectively talk with Mom and Dad about their finances and this obviously being one of those very important conversations. So Nathan and Notesong, thank you so much for your time, for your expertise, for the collaboration. And looking forward to having you back on in the future so we can dig deeper on this topic.

Nathan Kavlie: Thanks. This was fun.

Notesong Thompson: Thank you, Tim.

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YFP 220: Student Loan Forbearance Extension – Now What?

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Student Loan Forbearance Extension – Now What?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner talks about how those with student loans should be calculating their next moves considering the most recent extension of the administrative forbearance through January 2022.

About Today’s Guest

Kelly Reddy-Heffner is a Lead Planner at YFP Planning. She enjoys time with her husband and two sons, riding her bike, running, keeping after her pup ‘Fred Rogers.’ Kelly loves to cheer on her favorite team, plan travel, and ironically loves great food but does not enjoy cooking at all. She volunteers in her community as part of the Chambersburg Rotary. Kelly believes that there are no quick fixes to financial confidence, no guarantees on investment returns, but there is value in seeking trusted advice to get where you want to go. Kelly’s mission is to help clients go confidently toward their happy place.

Summary

Tim Ulbrich welcomes YFP Planning Lead Planner Kelly Reddy-Heffner back to the show to discuss how those with student loans should be calculating their next moves considering the most recent extension of the administrative forbearance through January 2022. Kelly talks through how to maximize the time left to evaluate your loan repayment options and choose the best next steps for your situation.

Kelly walks through the recent history of administrative forbearance for student loans taking us through to the current and likely final extension set to end at the end of January 2022. During this time of administrative forbearance, recent pharmacy graduates may not have had to make any payments. Others may have allocated the funds elsewhere, new expenses may have arisen, or employment status could have changed. In response, Kelly shares some general advice on making the most of the remaining forbearance period.

The Student Loan Analysis is one way to help pharmacists feel confident with their financial decisions regarding their student loans and to map out realistic goals for repayment regardless of the type of plan. Kelly outlines how the Student Loan Analysis at YFP works, who should consider it, the information to have on hand for your appointment, and where to gather all of your loan details, whether your loans are in the federal or private sector.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Kelly, welcome back to the show.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Thank you, Tim. I am happy to be here.

Tim Ulbrich: It’s been awhile. We had you on last Episode 187, where we talked about how to maximize your student loan strategy while federal student loans payments are paused. And that was back in January 2021, and I think at the time we thought, hey, this whole student loan forbearance thing might be coming to an end soon. And here we are again, talking about this topic and what this pending end to the administrative forbearance means. And so Kelly, kick us off by just bringing the audience up to speed on the background of the administrative forbearance on student loans and the extensions that have recently been extended one last time is what we’ve been told.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Absolutely. Right. So nothing has changed and yet it feels like everything has changed at the same time. The perfect feeling. Right, we originally had that administrative forbearance at the start of COVID in March of 2020 by the Trump administration. It was extended once during that presidential administration. And then now, we’ve seen with the Biden administration that it was extended two more times. So we had that extension until September, and now we have what I believe is the final time where we have until January 31. So I do think we’re coming to the end of the forbearance extensions, in my opinion. So we’re going to enjoy a few more months of 0% interest, no loan payments due, and of course those loans not having any default issues. So a couple more months, but we’re coming to the end of it.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and Kelly, you and I were talking before we hit record, I think one of the challenges — and certainly there’s been some benefits during this time period. We know firsthand from many in the community that they’ve been able to through this administrative forbearance accelerate the achievement of other financial goals, and that certainly has been a positive but also coming up on the two-year mark, essentially, right? So March 2020, you know, we entered lockdown, the pandemic, we started the forbearance with the CARES Act. So this time period of two years, I think that presents an interesting challenge where perhaps folks have gotten used to having no student loan payment and perhaps other expenses that have come to be. And then I think about the classes of 2020 and 2021 specifically where student loan payments haven’t even been a thing, you know, for them because of their graduation during this time period. So I suspect, Kelly, that a lot of pharmacists, a lot of folks listening out there, perhaps clients that you’ve been working with, have been wondering, should I or should I not make payments on my student loans during the administrative forbearance? And certainly this is not meant to be and it’s not individual advice, but what are your thoughts on this? And how have you helped coach folks through making this decision?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Well, I think you’re right that, you know, two years is a lot of time. So we changed our financial goals and priorities changed considerably, our employment may have changed in that timeframe as well. In general, I think I speak for our podcast listeners that they are proactive. They want to be taking action. They’re listening because they want strategies to put into place. So this has been a very interesting time period. We’re feeling like we’re not doing anything with the student loans. But there are a lot of things that we could be doing in the background, which I think can have a very positive impact on net worth and put our listeners in a great position for when repayment starts again that they’ve accomplished a couple other things. So we’ve been recommending if you are, you know, having any other debts, take care of those. Anything accumulating interest should be a top priority while this federal loan is not accumulating any interest. Building up an emergency fund — so again, we may not see net worth increase because the student loan debt is paid off. But we can see positive changes because those emergency funds are improving and giving people more options and more confidence in their finances. If you are in a PSLF program or a non-PSLF forgiveness program, then we’re not making payments at all on the federal side because there’s no benefit to doing that. But if you are only paying the loans, that is your strategy, you’ve either done the math yourself or spoken to a professional and you know that that is your plan, then that really could be on the agenda. Like if it’s comfortable to make those payments on the federal loans, then that could be an activity as well. But we do need to get back into the mindset of the payments are coming back. So we are asking clients and listeners to know at least a rough idea of what the payment amount is and to bring that back into your budget.

Tim Ulbrich: Great point, Kelly, there. I think it’s time to dust off, re-dust off the budget and really look at — run the calculators, use the tools that are available at studentloans.gov, you know, what is that estimated payment going to be as we get into February 2022? And how does that work or what changes need to be made to the budget to make that work, right? And now is the time to get the practice reps so that we’re not caught off guard in the New Year and we can make some adjustments or changes and have some time to warm up to that. And I think that’s a really important point and perhaps one that folks have been thinking about but dragging their feet on for good reason because of all the talk of the extension and I think I believe, you believe, that this is likely the end of that. And so let’s get ready for those payments to begin at the beginning of February 2022.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Agree. I mean, there was a statistic out there that 90% of the over 45 million borrowers were not making payments as of March of this past year. So that is the bulk of borrowers not making those payments. So it is time to figure out what that payment might look like. Like you said, recent graduates, 2020/2021, may have had an income tax return with part of a year in residency or the full year in a residency. So that payment amount could be very low. Once they’ve started full-time employment, income has increased, if they’re on an income-driven repayment plan, that’s what drives what that payment amount is, the income. So that will have potentially changed significantly.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, one of the things, Kelly, I often share with new graduates or even students that are beginning to think about student loan repayment is because of the complexity of the options that are out there, both federal and private — and we’re going to come back to that here in a little bit — this is not a decision that you want to wander into. Right? We want to be intentional with understanding those options, we want to be intentional with thinking about how this fits in with the rest of the financial plan. And here we are, we’ve got months to do that, right? So let’s take advantage of this time period, the end of 2021, and let’s really get ready so that we can hit that beginning of repayment when the pause ends and we can be confident with making that decision. And as we’ve talked about on the show before, you know, choosing between Option A v. Option B v. Option C, given the amount of student loan debt that many pharmacists have, that can be very significant in terms of the amount that’s going to come out of pocket because of the nuances with the different repayment plans. So intentionality really matters here. And let’s use this time that we’ve got left before this administrative forbearance ends to make sure that we’re ready in making that decision. Kelly, Step No. 1 — so I’m somebody listening and maybe I’m not loving the energy of this episode and the reality that hey, I’ve got to get back in the game. But I’m listening, I’m ready, and whether I’m a 2020/2021 grad or perhaps I was paying prior to the pandemic and it feels like forever ago and I’ve got to get back in the game, what is the first step that listeners can take to get ready for payments to start back up?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Absolutely. Well, again, just knowing what we’re dealing with, like what are the loans? Taking that inventory, you know, understanding which ones are federal, which ones are private, they have very different attributes in terms of what types of options are available for repayment. So we want to know what are we working with? What do we have on the table? And again, I think figuring out some of the other lifestyle goals as well, we cannot ever undervalue like how people feel about the loans, what they really want to accomplish with other goals as well. So you can look at studentloans.gov, which will actually redirect to studentaid.gov, to get some calculators, some information. That also is the source of your NSLDS file for taking that inventory and then pulling your credit report, you can get your free annual credit report and seeing like, OK, what’s federal? What’s private? I think knowing how much you can afford is key too. So sometimes that payment amount is what the payment amount is but knowing what your budget is, what you can afford, will help determine like do you need to be in an income-driven repayment and putting a plan in place? Is refinancing a better option because you have resources available? So again, there are resources out there to assist with this. But it’s a lot of data, a lot of information, a lot of subtle nuances. Even we have to be like, hold on. What is the date of the loan? That sometimes will impact what repayment options are available, just literally the date the loan was taken out.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And so Step No. 1, you know, if you don’t have that up-to-date information is understanding all of the information about your federal and private loans. What’s the balance? You know, who is servicing those loans on the private side? You know, we should be able to quickly get information on the interest rate and the repayment terms on the federal side right now. That probably is showing as a 0% if those are qualifying under the administrative forbearance. But I love — Kelly, I talked with a couple actually just the other night who when I asked them about their student loans, you know, it was very precise. They had all the information. “I’ve got three federal loans, I’ve got one private loan.” And it was to the penny of the outstanding balance, what they had. And I loved the intentionality of hey, I don’t like the number. I don’t like that it’s $194,000. But I understand that in order to put a plan together and to be able to evaluate the options and to be able to know what we can afford inside the budget, I’ve got to understand what we’re working with first and make sure that we have all the details. Step No. 1 is that inventory. And we’re going to link in the show notes to the links that Kelly mentioned on the federal side and the private side. So the federal side, she mentioned studentloans.gov will redirect to studentaid.gov. And then on the private side, running the credit report at annualcreditreport.com. Kelly, after the inventory, you alluded to the second step, which I think is really important is what can the budget afford? And when I teach this topic of student loan repayment, that’s often something I try to walk folks through is, hey, let’s make sure we know what the budget looks like. And as we’ve said many, many times on this show, student loans, as big as they are for many pharmacists, student loans are one piece of the puzzle. So we’ve got to understand what else is going on, what other expenses are out there, what other goals are out there, so that we can determine what that budget can afford. And if we decide to do a more aggressive repayment path, what does that mean for achieving other goals? If we decide to do something like a forgiveness path or more extended path, what does that mean for achieving other goals and really looking across the financial plan? And so we’ve got a budget template for folks that want to get started or update that budget. If you go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/budget, you can get a copy of that. And so Step. No. 1 is inventory, Step No. 2 is really looking at what the budget can afford, Step No. 3, Kelly, is probably the most confusing, the most difficult, but the most important part, which is understanding the options. And unfortunately, the hand we have been dealt as borrowers of student loans I would argue is more complex than it probably needs to be. Separate topic for a separate day. But talk to us about understanding repayment options, something you work often with our clients about, and just the magnitude of this decision.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Well, right. I mean, once you’re on studentaid.gov and you’re plugging in some data, I mean, you’re going to get a lot of information back about these repayment options, especially on the federal side. I mean, and they, again, range significantly. So even that date you took out the loan can have a significant impact on what options are available. So we have income-driven repayment options, which we have two that we usually recommend or work with in PAYE and RePAYE. Of course we have standard repayment as well, which is usually that 10-year term, which is a fixed payment amount, does not vary with income. We don’t lean towards extended or graduate options, just because they really perpetuate the length of time that it takes to repay the loan and often, you know, with pretty high interest paid in the process. So income-driven is usually the area where we’re operating in and also that standard repayment if we’re not refinancing. And again, just understanding like the date you took out the loan, you’re right that 0% is kind of the default on all of the data, which is hard. Like we were taking out loans when we were 18, 20. It’s not usually the ideal time for being detail-oriented about this type of information. So we can take a look at the dates the loans were taken out in the federal system and see what the interest rate was that year. But it’s a lot — it’s a lot of nuance for sure.

Tim Ulbrich: And then we’ve got, you know, on the federal side, you mentioned the variety of options. To make it a little bit more complicated, we’ve then got the private option. And we’re going to come back to talking about some common questions that we get around refinancing. I do — without going too far down the rabbit hole because we have talked about it extensively on the podcast, most recently on Episode 214, I interviewed a pharmacist who had $127,000 that was forgiven through the Public Service Loan Forgiveness. And so we’ve talked in detail about PSLF, non-PSLF, but I think it’s worth talking about again just briefly in the context as we look at the end of this administrative forbearance. So Kelly, quick dive, I don’t want folks to hear this and think, oh, I’ve got it with PSLF and non-PSLF, certainly more complicated than what we’re going to discuss briefly — but quick dive into PSLF, non-PSLF, what they are, and the main differences between the two of them.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Absolutely. And I mean, I think there are still questions. Like it has improved our level of information, but the PSLF rules are very specific. You do need to work for the right type of employer in a nonprofit setting, and you can check an EIN number now in some of the PSLF tools on studentloans.gov, which is helpful. You do need to be in the right kind of loan. So we still see that as a little bit of a problem at times. Like it does need to be in a direct type of loan. So if we see FELL loans, we see HPL loans, we see Perkins, those don’t automatically line up to qualify. And that’s where some of the confusion still exists. You do have to be in the right repayment plan. So in income-driven repayment, there are some nuances with standard repayment that require a little bit of conversation if you’re in standard. You have to make the right amount of payments. It’s 120. And you do need the documentation. So as FedLoan servicer changes to a new servicer, this is an area that we are focusing on and just reminding borrowers to make sure that they have their data documented. Go onto FedLoan, take a screengrab of where your cumulative payments are. Of course the best part is it’s a tax-free situation. In contrast, the non-PSLF forgiveness is a longer time period. So instead of being 10 years, it’s 20-25 years. 20 or 25 depends on some nuances with grad loans and the type of repayment plan that you’re in. And again, it doesn’t matter if you work for a nonprofit. You can have any employer to qualify for non-PSLF forgiveness. It really is based more on the amount of loans compared to income for that program. And then there is a tax consequence at the end. I think that tax consequence is one of the things that maybe will continue to be evaluated by the current presidential administration, like are we keeping that? Are we not keeping that? It would have an impact on people in that program. So yeah, there’s some pretty significant differences between those two programs.

Tim Ulbrich: Kelly, when I talk with folks about non-PSLF and the way I describe these is, you know, PSLF I think is a little bit better known by folks just because it’s gotten so much press and attention, although maybe not the best press. But it feels like folks are more aware and educated. I describe non-PSLF as the lesser-known forgiveness option in the federal system. And I think when I see folks’ reaction, there’s kind of this range of emotion from, ‘Oh my gosh, 20-25 years, like I’ve got a tax bill known as the tax bomb at the end of this, like who in the world would do this?’ Right? And then you start to talk a little bit about, OK, well, depending on the debt load, depending on some of the strategies around this, depending on if we think about saving for that tax bomb, maybe it’s not as overwhelming as it can seem. But certainly that’s a long period of time and, right, there’s some complexities here with the tax piece. So in your conversations with clients at YFP Planning, like does this have a role? How often does this come up? And are folks, you know, worried about some of those things that I just raised in terms of that tax piece as well as the timeline?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Yes. I mean, that is a long time to be, you know, in a repayment strategy. So right, we do do an analysis to see like what do the numbers look like? Often, these decisions are very emotional. 20-25 years is a long time. So we try to refocus on the factual components like what does the actual repayment look like? Like how does the payment amount per month compare if you refinance or accelerate a repayment? What is the overall forgiven amount? Sometimes, that number is quite compelling. Like if you are seeing, you know, six-figure digits of what’s forgiven, then we really do have to see like is that a viable option, despite the fact that it can be a little overwhelming to think of a 20-year time span. So yeah, we do carefully look at really all that factual data and then try to talk through the emotions behind it and what it means in terms of other things that you might be able to achieve in that timeframe. Sometimes it does make it much easier to buy your first home, to pay off something else, to be able to meet your monthly budget. Sometimes accelerating repayment is not affordable.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is a good reminder of — and many folks that I’ve talked with I can sense that sometimes, the overwhelming feeling, beyond just the number of the amount of debt they have, is that nagging feeling of like, I know there’s so many options out there, and I’m not sure I understand the differences between them and a desire to feel confident in that understanding and then making a decision that you know has evaluated other parts of the financial plan is ultimately best for their individual situation. And I want folks to not underestimate how important that feeling can be, especially with momentum and the rest of the financial plan, to confidently choose the repayment option that you know has been evaluated and is really best for your personal situation and to hopefully feel empowered and educated throughout that process as well. So Kelly, on the private side, refinancing is a topic that we talk about often on this show. It’s one of the most common questions that I get in terms of should I or should I not refinance? What should I look for in a lender? You know, what are some of the considerations in the refinance process? And I want to hit some of that because I think there’s probably many folks that are listening that maybe refinanced before the pandemic and have been excluded from this administrative forbearance or folks that have delayed refinancing and are wondering like, when might I pull that trigger? You know, thinking about what might or might not happen in interest rates. And so I suspect the conversation around refinancing is going to heat up as we saw the activity around refinancing really at historic levels before the pandemic hit back in January and February of 2020. So first of all, Kelly, what is refinancing? Give us the definition.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Absolutely. And it is — the two terms consolidation and refinance are very different. They’re used interchangeably, which is not quite right. So you know, as opposed to consolidation, which is taking federal loans for convenience or to be in a position to be in income-driven repayment or to qualify for forgiveness, consolidation is taking like a bunch of federal loans and putting them into like one or two subsidized or unsubsidized. So still federal, interest rate really is not impacted. It definitely doesn’t lower the rate. It may open up other opportunities for different federal programs. Refinance is either taking your federal loans and moving them into the private sector, which is a one-way transaction. Like once you’ve moved into private, that’s it. Or you have existing private loans and you refinance them into other private loans. So very different, very different what is happening there.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think folks are likely somewhat in this holding pattern, right? I think in terms of, as I alluded to just a couple minutes ago, like hey, I think refinancing is the play or perhaps they’ve evaluated that, but what do I do? We’ve got several months left of administrative forbearance, rates may or may not go up, there’s offers that are out there that might help minimize some of that concern. But like what might I be giving up as well? And I think that’s one of the other questions and considerations folks need to be thinking about is what is different? So it’s not identical from the federal side to the private side with refinancing. Important note here is that every private lender can be a little bit different. So you know, we’re generalizing as we’ve put them together. But what are some of those main differences or things that folks need to be looking for as they consider what might be different from what they have in the federal system versus what they’re pursuing in the private market?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: In order to really evaluate a refinance, usually the primary objective to refinance is interest rate. So if you can get a better interest rate, that can be a compelling reason to refinance. But you’re absolutely right that there are tradeoffs to doing that. So you know, high level, I think there is a little of FOMO, like ‘Oh my gosh, interest rates are low. Are they going to go up in the next week?’ And then this becomes not a viable strategy. We have been monitoring interest rates throughout the summer, and they’ve been pretty steady. Like we’ve even seen them go down a little bit and kind of back up a bit, but pretty steady. We have seen some interesting programs or offers from private lenders where they kind of offer this 0% bridge. That was happening for a bit. In general, you know, the couple big things are with the federal loans, we have seen the protections in action. Like we know there is a very tangible like ah, that is what a federal protection means because of the CARES Act. In general, you know, will the loans be discharged? That’s a big question if something happens to someone. In the federal loan program, they are discharged for death and for disability as well. On the private side, it really depends on the lender. So that is something if we’re working with a client who’s considering a refinance, we are looking at the fine print to see what the discharge status would be. In terms of, you know, can I pay extra towards a refinanced loan or even a federal loan, the answer is usually yes in both cases where you can accelerate some repayment if that’s the appropriate strategy to take. But in general, we don’t have income-driven repayment on that refinance side. So if your income goes down, which you know, is something we hope doesn’t happen to our listeners but occasionally it does either by choice or not by choice, you know, is a job opportunity amazing and you’re willing to take a slight pay decrease? In the federal program, you can provide documentation that your income has gone down and have that income-driven repayment re-evaluated and lowered. That’s not a feature of a private loan system. So the payment is what it is.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think you articulated well there why it’s so important that folks are running the numbers, right? You mentioned the primary goal is to effectively lower the interest rate. And for many folks, that savings can be significant. If you’re talking about $150,000-$200,000+ of debt and you’re seeing a spread of 1-3%, whatever it might be, on interest rates depending on their personal situation, like that math adds up. So what I encourage folks is run the math but don’t stop there, right? Be thinking about these other things. You mentioned some tangible examples we have seen are the benefits of the federal program, the CARES Act being one. Just last week or it might have been the week before, the announcement from the Department of Education about over $5 billion being allocated to those that have a total or permanent disability in terms of loan forgiveness. So again, another tangible benefit and them improving the ease of that forgiveness process for those that have a total and permanent disability. So there are differences, and the savings may be there and often that may make sense, but just make sure you’re also considering some of these other factors as well. So we have I think outlined fairly well that navigating student loan repayment certainly on your own given the factors that we’ve discussed can feel overwhelming. I’ve been there, and I think aside from exit counseling that folks get, there really isn’t a whole lot of assistance in figuring out which repayment option is going to be best for your personal situation. And therefore, folks might get defaulted into the standard 10-year repayment plan or wonder, am I in the best repayment plan for my personal situation? And that is why we developed an offer a custom one-on-one student loan analysis. In this service, the goal is that we’re working one-on-one with you to lay out all your options so that you can confidently choose a repayment plan that hopefully will save you the most money and that ultimately aligns with other financial goals. And so in doing this, you’ll work with one of our YFP Planning Certified Financial Planners to inventory your loans, both federal and private, evaluate eligible repayment options, including the ones we’ve discussed here today, student loan forgiveness, income-driven repayment, private refinancing, and then ultimately try to determine what that best repayment strategy is for your situation. So Kelly, you are the lead for us on conducting these one-on-one student loan analyses. I know it’s something you also do frequently with clients of YFP Planning that are participating in our comprehensive planning services. So talk to us a little bit more about this service, the student loan analysis, and what folks can expect.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Well, especially now, as there are so many unknowns, we do struggle with like what is the next best step? And I think we do — I hope — help clients get some clarity. Like sometimes there are options and knowns beyond what we think are available. So I’d say one of the biggest objectives of doing the analysis is putting confidence in a next step. So this is the information we have available. So I think it is an ideal option for any borrower who wants to have a strategy in place so that they can make other good decisions about the rest of their financial plan. So it is an ideal opportunity to build some confidence and to say like, ‘OK, here are my various options.’ You know, we look at within the confines of the federal program what the options are in terms of income-driven repayment, which payment plan might be best, do a comparable with refinancing, look at non-PSLF forgiveness, and really put out the facts of these are the options that are available and help talk through what is best for that individual client and that household. It is not ideal for folks who have already refinanced everything into the private sector because already, the options are significantly more limited. You’re in the private sector, you could potentially refinance again for a lower rate — and I think that is a question we get a fair amount, like can I refinance again? It is different from a home mortgage refi. The process is a little bit different. It does have a credit component, though. You know, you are getting a hard credit check if you refinance. So that can have an impact, but you know, there’s not closing costs. It is a little different. So yeah, you know, if you can get a better rate, it’s certainly worth looking into. But for those clients, I feel like we best help people who still have some federal and are deciding like what is that next best step.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I agree, Kelly. I think for — you mentioned, you know, the service is not necessarily for everyone. So folks that have already refinanced and because there is less options at that point — you mentioned it is a one-way street earlier. But for many folks I suspect who are, ‘Hey, I’ve still got federal loans. I’m wondering about forgiveness, PSLF or non-PSLF,’ or those that do think PSLF is the path forward, do I have all my ducks in a row? What might be some of the strategies or things that I’m thinking about for optimizing that strategy? Or if I’m not pursuing Public Service Loan Forgiveness, does non-PSLF forgiveness make sense if I work for a non-qualifying employer? Or might I evaluate that refinancing? And how do I do some of that analysis and consider some of the things one might be giving up by making that move from the federal to the private. And so for folks listening, if you’re ready to get help in mapping out your plan, I think now is a great time as we, again, head into this home stretch on the last several months before that administrative forbearance ends, you can go over to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/SLA, where you can get more information about the service, get a little bit more information about Kelly, what’s included in the service, what the service costs, and then you can book that right there as well and get on Kelly’s calendar. Again, that’s YourFinancialPharmacist.com/SLA. Kelly, really appreciate your time and your expertise and the contribution that you made to the community on the show today.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Thank you. I’m excited for listeners to really feel like they can make that forward progress and have some confidence in a decision. So I know sometimes, especially during the last two years, we have that feeling of being in a little bit of a holding pattern. But use the time wisely. Prepared is a strategy. So never underestimate the opportunity of having those ducks in a row.

Tim Ulbrich: Great advice. And certainly last but not least, if you’ve been listening to the show for a while and you like what you’ve heard, please do us a favor. If you could leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to the show, that would help other pharmacy professionals find this show. And if you have a question that you would like us to answer or feature on an upcoming episode, you can reach out to us at [email protected]. Have a great rest of your day.

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YFP 218: How Marina Created a Business in Clinical Herbalism

Posted on by yfpadmin

How Marina Created a Business in Clinical Herbalism

Dr. Marina Buksov discusses her entrepreneurial journey in natural remedies and clinical herbalism.

About Today’s Guest

Dr. Marina Buksov is a registered Doctor of Pharmacy, Health Coach, Clinical Herbalist, and lifelong learner of the Healing Arts. She is the creator of Build Your Holistic Herbal Practice course mentoring other healthcare professionals in clinical herbal as well as business skills. She is also a functional medicine pharmacist as part of PharmToTable telehealth platform.

Marina also offers educational webinars with Radicle Herbs and is a wellness writer for Jejune Magazine. Marina uses her multidisciplinary background to educate patients about the least invasive and most natural methods for healing the spirit-body-mind. Her truly holistic approach helps women embody the best versions of themselves and lovingly celebrate the skin they’re in.

When she is not studying, Marina likes to dance, paint, and tinker with various concoctions (tea blends, meals, DIY projects). She lives with her husband, toddler, and two mischievous kitties in NYC.

Summary

Dr. Marina Buksov, a registered pharmacist, Health Coach, Clinical Herbalist, and lifelong learner of the Healing Arts, joins Tim Ulbrich to discuss her entrepreneurial journey. Marina reveals why she launched her brand and business, some lessons she learned along the way, and how her financial journey has intersected with her business goals.

Upon graduation from pharmacy school, Marina quickly realized that she didn’t feel truly passionate about any one particular area of pharmacy or traditional pharmacy career paths. After connecting with her mentor, she decided to explore alternative medicine. During this time, Marina started working in a Russian-style apothecary that specialized in herbs and supplements. Shortly after, Marina found her way into health coaching, incorporating her alternative medicine training and education from her retail pharmacy experience.

Marina advises other pharmacists who may experience that same sense of not belonging in the profession to explore a variety of areas of pharmacy, connect with mentors, and look for (or create) opportunities to find what and how you resonate with the pharmacy profession even as a practicing pharmacist. Along the way, mentors and coaches have played an integral part in Marina’s business, with financial planning and coaching guiding her ability to take risks with her business while also providing for her future.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Marina, welcome to the show.

Marina Buksov: Hi. Thanks so much, Tim.

Tim Ulbrich: I am really excited to dig into your entrepreneurial journey and start us off by telling us about your journey into becoming a pharmacist.

Marina Buksov: Sure. So my parents are actually both dual majors, you could say, in biology and chemistry. And so they kind of inspired me to go down this road. I always loved chemistry as well. It kind of came naturally to me, I guess because my dad was also a chemistry teacher, even though I was learning chemistry in English and he had learned it in Russian. So we kind of didn’t speak the same language, even though it’s a science. I never really needed the help, but I guess the interest was there, much like it was for him. And so when I was choosing colleges, they kind of just brought up pharmacy and they said, “Hey, this seems like a really lucrative field of study right now that you can look into since you like chemistry and math.” So I kind of decided to try it out with the thinking that if I don’t like it, I could always get out of it. But if I don’t get in now, then I won’t have a Master’s degree in six years and the opportunity was really good. So I ended up applying to a couple of schools, and there weren’t that many pharmacy schools in my area. There were only two, so that narrowed down my choices. And I actually loved it in school. I loved learning about the body, and I learned about the biochemistry and about all the medications but also about the non-pharmacological areas, which is what I specialize in now. So I loved the whole process. So being in pharmacy school but again, when it came time to graduate, I found myself at a loss for where in pharmacy exactly I see myself fitting in. My focus was, again, kind of widespread and I liked a lot of different areas, but I couldn’t see myself doing any one thing. And I chose a variety of diverse rotation settings just to put myself in different experiences, but I still couldn’t see myself doing a fellowship or any other kind of advanced training program or in retail or in hospital. So I was kind of like thinking, what am I going to do after I graduate?

Tim Ulbrich: So you had a lot of interests heading into pharmacy, ultimately went that pathway for the reasons that you mentioned. And I’m not surprised you graduate, I can tell that you’re inherently a learner, you’re interested in lots of different things. You go through your rotations, you’ve got this doctorate degree, but you’re not necessarily feeling like you fit into any “traditional” mold, right, that we often think of of pharmacy graduates, which as I think we’re doing a better job of now in 2021, you know, realizing that there certainly are lots of opportunities. The PharmD is a pathway, in my opinion, to many different opportunities. And we’re going to get to yours here in a moment. But tell us then about the path after pharmacy school. What did you do? And did you find out and ultimately get into something that you found out you love? Or did it just affirm that, you know what, I’m not sure where I’m going to go with this path?

Marina Buksov: Yes, so I guess it’s just taking things step-by-step and one day at a time and seeing what opportunities arise and present themselves. So I did end up going to Midyear to interview for fellowships, but that’s when I realized that I don’t see myself doing neither a residency or a fellowship, even though it’s such a lucrative and competitive field that I feel like, you know, people go into it for maybe the merit of it or the prestige of it, maybe some people are really into it, but I was only seeing like the prestige side of it and I wasn’t really seeing how it was really something I’m personally passionate about, so I decided that wasn’t a good reason to apply. So I turned down the one offer that I had and I instead took another offer from a local pharmacy that was just a plain independent retail pharmacy that I had been working part-time as I was in pharmacy school and like learning the ropes there. So I accepted their position as a pharmacist. I figured this was like a safe step for me, a stepping stone, and from here, I could also do some learning on the side and figure out what I want to do next. And as it turns out, that pharmacy went out of business. Well, not really. But they were selling the pharmacy, so they said, ‘Oh, you know, there’s probably no point in us hiring you because we’re going to be selling the business so then we don’t know what the new owners are going to do.’ So basically, that offer fell through. And I found myself having no idea what to do. But I ended up just spending the summer after graduation and taking the test seeing on social media what opportunities are out there, and I ended up going to another pharmacy to kind of learn the system there and cover for someone. And it turned out a pharmacy next door was looking for a full-time pharmacist. So I happened to just go in there and drop off my resume, and they called me back and they said, “OK, we have a position for you.” And the interesting thing is it wasn’t a full-time in one position. It was kind of split between two stores. And one of the stores was in an area that I had said to myself that I would like to work in before, which is this area of Brooklyn that’s kind of a Russian population area called Brighton Beach next to the beach. And they do a lot of herbal medicine there because Russian medicine, much like Chinese, is very integrative in their approach. So their pharmacies are trained in both herbal medicine and pharmacological medicine and pharmaceutical medicine. So it kind of embodied both of those worlds, and I started my journey there.

Tim Ulbrich: So you’re working in a pharmacy that has more “traditional,” you know, what we think of of the pharmacy and dispensing medications, and then they have this more nontraditional — at least nontraditional in the sense of how we think of pharmacy practice in the U.S. So tell us more about that experience as you’re getting into more of the herbal experience and, you know, what did you learn through that? And how did this position and experience affect your path forward?

Marina Buksov: So it was pretty amazing to see how we have — we’re considered to be masters in our field, right, doctors, actually doctor of pharmacy in our six years of intense schooling, but we really know next to nothing on other types of medicine, anything “alternative” or holistic or complementary. All of that is kind of like if you’re lucky, you get an elective like I did. But otherwise, we don’t know too much. And even the over-the-counter medicines, we don’t go in depth about — again, unless you’re taking a self-care elective. It’s amazing that yes, we pack so much schooling and we come out with so much knowledge but also there’s so much more out there that we don’t know because we don’t know what we don’t know, right? If you just simply don’t know that it’s out there, you won’t even know that you can look for something else, right? So you’ll just rely on the “traditional” things that are conventional and available. So this was kind of like scratching the surface and exposing me to how other countries actually still utilize plant medicine and herbals and many more diverse over-the-counter products than we do. Basically, they’re very, very creative in how people are taking care of themselves from the home and they can go to a pharmacy and get a lot — a bunch of herbs or a bunch of herbal products or a mix between an herbal and a pharmaceutical that’s available without a prescription. And so there’s just so much more to know. And the pharmacists that are trained by, for example, Russian schools or any other kind of country that has this integrative approach, they know maybe not as in-depth as what we know pharmacologically, but they know a lot more about general self-care things that are, again, available to people without going to the doctor and without going to get a prescription. So that was really impressive, and I realized that I also want to know more.

Tim Ulbrich: So Marina, one of the things that I think of and I’ve seen this and heard it from entrepreneurs that have been on this show is that often, some experience that someone has leads to an interest or sparks an idea and then that ultimately will set them off on the path to start something, could be a business, could be a nonproft, could be a side hustle, whatever you want to call it. And before we get into your business, what you’re doing, what you’re working on, I don’t want to gloss over that there is a big jump from experience to idea to actually starting a business. So talk us through that a little bit more in terms of you’re working in this pharmacy, you’re getting this experience, it’s affirming the interests that you have, you’re a learner and you’re absorbing more information. What is the idea or the opportunity that you see that ultimately leads to you starting your business?

Marina Buksov: I mean, I think there were several big factors that were going on, one of which was my personal health journey that has been going on too during this time. And the interesting thing is that now, I — looking back at it — attribute it to psychosomatic things that were happening in my body and my mind and spirit, perhaps, because as I was graduating pharmacy school, I remember described my confusion and not feeling like I fit in anywhere, not knowing if this is actually the path that I should be on, kind of questioning all of that. And I called this my quarter-life crisis that happened because as I chose, you know, the retail position and the retail, as you know, you’re kind of behind the counter and, you know, the most pleasurable activity there was coming out and counseling the patients. But because of the fast pace, even in independent settings, often unless they had questions, counseling wouldn’t really happen.

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Marina Buksov: So that was my biggest joy, but unfortunately, I found myself mostly just filling prescriptions and checking things and billing insurances and calling doctors and calling insurances and being behind the counter and not really having the patient-to-patient interaction, which is what my favorite part was. And I started having different kinds of health issues arise from finishing pharmacy school and all through my first years of practice where I had like a worsening in my digestive tract issues that I had growing up, IBS type of things. I was also diagnosed with H. pylori. I had to take a lot of antibiotics. Then I had this obscure dacryostenosis happen in my eyes, which is when your tear ducts basically become more narrow. And so my eyes starting getting chronically inflamed. And at that point, I didn’t even want to come out and see anyone from behind the counter because I felt that I looked horrible with my inflamed eyes. And to top everything off, I also started having PCOS type of symptoms and was diagnosed with it and had lots of acne, which I never had growing up. So it was adult-onset acne and weight gain. And so all of these issues started cropping up when I, again, now, looking back at it, see it tied more to my life purpose and my mission wasn’t really being carried out. And so my health was suffering because of that.

Tim Ulbrich: OK, so Marina, you identify an opportunity to help train others, make other folks aware of some of these practices that, again, could supplement more what we think of traditional medicine. So what does that lead to in terms of your business, your services, what you’re offering, who that’s intended for, and really, what does that look like to solve the problem of which you just described, which is to really help fill what is potentially a gap out there and unawareness and lack of education?

Marina Buksov: Yeah, well, it took some time to distill that exact thought in my entrepreneurial journey. And as I like to say, the entrepreneurial journey is kind of like a forever commitment because you’re always growing. And it’s very much tied to professional growth, the business growth, and your personal growth where your business is a reflection of you and what you’re going through internally. And if you can master your own self, you can master having a business. As I was going along and working in mostly the retail setting, I realized this gap existed, right? So the first step was realizing that there is something I don’t know. So the first thing I need to do is educate myself on that. And then I could kind of draw some other conclusions or learn how to run a business with that perhaps or how to incorporate that into my practice that I already have. So first thing I did was I spoke to my complementary and alternative elective professor, and I asked her what she thinks I should do, and I shared with her how I feel like I don’t fit in and I really did have an interest in that elective. So she suggested I reach out to another person who was a graduate right before me. So when I spoke to her, she suggested that I go into health coaching. So my first program out of college was immediately enrolling in a health coaching program. So after that, I underwent a series of other programs where I learned everything from functional nutrition to eventually clinical herbalism. So how to work with plants and phytochemicals in a way to support the human body. Both nutritionally and medicinally, plants have a huge role in this. And they’re really the basis of both traditional pharmacy and naturopathy and even functional medicine or any supplement that you take out there, they have a basis of some kind of plant behind that. So the minerals and vitamins we extract or the active constituents probably have a root in a plant somewhere.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think, you know, you’re taking me back, Marina, to sometime in pharmacy school. And you’re right. There’s just a lot of connection back to the herbal aspect. And you’re spot-on that traditional PharmD curricula doesn’t necessarily provide much information — really, if at all sometimes, depending on the curriculum — that would allow folks to think about some of the application of this clinically or how some patients might be interested in approaching this. So again, you’ve identified a need, right? We’ve just talked about that. You mentioned about this very much being a journey, which I would agree with. And you’ve sought out additional training, so you provided some additional education to help increase your skills, which then takes us to the point where OK, you’ve got — you’ve obviously got your PharmD background, you’ve got some additional training, you’ve identified an opportunity to serve a group that perhaps isn’t being served to the full potential. So if I come to you, Marina, and I’m interested in this area of practice, whether I’m a pharmacist or not, like what are you offering? What is the product? What is the service?

Marina Buksov: There were a couple of iterations in my offerings. But it has evolved to me seeing clients in a functional medicine capacity as part of a team on a telehealth platform. So I realized that that would probably be the best use of my time in working with private clients whereas the majority of my business focus is really around educating and that knowledge gap to other providers and healthcare practitioners, especially pharmacists, that are wanting to learn about employing herbal medicine, whether they’re a pharmacy owner that wants to specialize and offer this to their patients or if there’s any other way that they would like to incorporate it as a private consultant like I did for many years or working with supplement companies as a consultant. I mean, there’s a myriad of ways. And that’s actually part of what we do in the program besides the didactic knowledge and homework that I give and accountability that I provide, I also train on the kind of business end side of things and how to actually implement some of these things into your work or business so that you have a successful vocation at the end of it.

Tim Ulbrich: Gotcha. So there’s both the patient side of it; you mentioned seeing clients one-on-one, and then more of the focus of what you’re doing on the business is training and educating others both on their clinical understanding but also some of the business aspects involved with this. So if we continue on the journey, I mentioned before often we have an experience that can spark an idea or lead to an interest that then takes us on our own entrepreneur journey to start something. Once you start something, obviously there’s then the task of OK, do folks know about what I’m doing? And how am I marketing this? And how am I making people aware of this? So tell us about your current strategies. I looked at your website; you’ve got a lot of great educational information, you’ve got a podcast. Like what is your strategy in terms of standing out so that other folks can become aware of who you are, your brand, the services that you offer, and ultimately engage in those and benefit from them.

Marina Buksov: This is definitely something that after I got the clinical knowledge side of things down — and again, I’m a person like many of us, especially pharmacists, we feel like we never know enough, so we always want more and more and more courses and all of this stuff, which I’m definitely guilty of. But eventually, I said, OK, I know enough to start helping people. So now I have to, again, focus on how am I presenting myself? How are people finding me? How can I serve? You know, because I am now capable of serving in the way that I want to serve. But how can I do that without any clients? So I had to also teach myself that and I have to say that it was a very hard and rocky journey to teach myself, so I really recommend investing in a coach that will show you the ropes, which is what I eventually had to do. I actually worked with several business coaches and was part of like Business Masterminds and again, those are great for accountability and support. And I’m trying to really cut that learning curve for people where they can just go to one program that will teach them a really, really good foundation and basis for everything that they would need in terms of botanical medicine, which is again, the backbone of every alternative, holistic practice in some way or form. And so people can get the clinical side of things, get a really good foundation and backbone, and start to dip their feet into the marketing and the business side of things immediately and finding themselves a niche and whatever else will help them on their particular implementation plan because for me, it took me a really long time. You know, I’ve been working slowly, slowly to build my business for about seven years now. And this year was the first year that I really pivoted and decided who am I going to serve and was really clear on that and came out with my program, which I mentioned, that I’m now running. So this all kind of solidified earlier this year.

Tim Ulbrich: And I hope our listeners, especially those that have an idea or maybe they’re at the beginning of their journey or maybe even feeling frustrated with, man, this is just not taking off as quickly as I can, just hearing that timeframe, right? Seven years. You know, I think back to the journey of YFP, coming up on seven years. And there is always something new that is to be learned. And I would encourage folks to check out your website, Marina. We’ll link to that in the show notes, DrMarinaBuksov.com, because I think you’ve done a really nice job of what I think is an important recipe to taking people along the journey from interest to actually being able to engage with those folks and then offer them a product or a service that is of value and hopefully is mutually beneficial between you and that individual. And you know, when you look on your website, you’ve got obviously valuable educational content in terms of interview that you do on the podcast and other resources, but you also have done a nice job with building lead generation techniques and guides and some other things that help you to capture those leads and then you have the ability to follow up with them and convert traffic into conversations that you can have and engage with that community. And so lead with value and then find a way to be able to capture that audience and then you can have that two-way conversation to see whether or not your services may be a good fit. Marina, I want to go back to something you mentioned a little bit earlier. And you mentioned it quickly, but it’s a really important point. And that is that folks that are going on this entrepreneurial journey, no matter where they are in that journey, I do think that certainly includes not only the professional side but a fair amount of personal development. And I believe from my experiences that often, engaging and leaning into the business can really bring out some of the best strengths that someone may have that maybe they weren’t even fully aware of what those strengths were, but it also can expose some weaknesses, opportunities for development, whatever you want to call it, that maybe otherwise weren’t exposed because of all the different hats that you have to wear as you’re trying to get a business off and running. So Marina, for your journey, what are an area or two that you think of by going through this journey and the work that you’ve done in starting this business, it’s really brought out or firmed some of the strengths that you have and then other side of the equation, maybe has exposed some opportunities where you even need to surround yourself with others’ support or even develop yourself a little bit further.

Marina Buksov: That’s a great question. I think really, this journey does expose you with the opportunities for growth, like you said, by exposing you to some of your not-so-favorite qualities or maybe even your worst qualities will come to life when you start to run a business because like I said, often we see the business as a reflection of us because it’s so personal to us. It’s related to our vocation and our personal mission, what we’re trying to be in the world. So sometimes, when we’re faced with not seeing success right away or as soon as we like or the level of success that we like, however you would like to measure that but most people measure it with fame or money or visibility or some kind of feedback, right, from the real world, maybe really good testimonials is another one. So whatever success is for you, it’s important to define it and to also be able to separate you from your business but also learn when it is a mirror and what you can learn from it. So you know, just because your business may not take off as soon as you’d like, like we said, seven years for us, or something is just not going your way or you’re experiencing some sort of setback, just know that it could be a “temporary failure” or think of it only as a lesson because you really can only either win or learn. That’s how I approach things nowadays. And so if something doesn’t take off immediately or doesn’t give you a reward on your investment right away, it doesn’t mean that it wasn’t valuable. It’s a step that was vital for you to not repeat that in the future or to learn a different strategy that will work better or some other important lesson for you to, again, learn from. And especially if you don’t have a business background, you should expect some sort of challenges or setbacks in business your first rodeo because you know, you could be a great pharmacist and know everything there is about pharmacy, but that doesn’t mean that you’ll know immediately how to run a business and how to have that proper mindset to run a business. So for me, it was a lot of coaching that helped me and also seeing that other people on the same journey as entrepreneurs are also experiencing similar challenges and setbacks. So viewing that as a normal part of the growth process instead of seeing it as a failure is my best advice. And ultimately, I realized that even if I do experience setbacks in my business, it’s still worth it for me to eventually have the opportunity to succeed by showing my mission and getting more recognition about my mission. And inspiring others to pursue their missions with my story is worth it to me, despite all of the setbacks that it has potentially.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And that’s what I encourage folks: Share your story. You don’t know who’s listening, who may be affirmed by that, who might have an idea that it helps stimulate that forward, a student who’s feeling frustrated and unsure of where to go with their career path and just hearing about alternative ideas. I think so much value in that. And Marina, loved what you shared to connect that with the value for you of a coach. And I think that sometimes on this journey, like not only — especially for folks that are working full-time and they’re starting a business or an idea, you know, there’s that excitement, there’s that energy, but it also can be a lonely place and you’re putting in a lot of time. And having a coach, having a community, having a mastermind, having folks around you that you can bounce ideas off of and get support from, is just really important for the accountability but also be able to talk out loud as I think so much of this, we can live in our own thoughts as we’re trying to build the business. And shoutout here as I think about for YFP, my partner at YFP, Tim Baker, you know, I have the opportunity to sit down on a regular basis and we can share wins, we can share frustrations, but just having those conversations I think is so, so valuable. Marina, I’m going to ask you about the connection between the personal financial plan and what you’re doing on the business side and vice versa. And where I’m going with this is that I am a firm believer that a good, healthy business is often built and built confidently when you can build that upon having a strong personal financial foundation because you’re not necessarily worried about, ‘What about this? What about that?’ It doesn’t necessarily mean you have all of your financial goals achieved, but you’ve got a good foundation of which you can work from so you’re not constantly worried about that as you approach the business with confidence. And vice versa, often our business activities are able to help support our personal financial goals, whatever that may be for individuals that are listening. So tell us a little bit about for you, how the business and your personal plan have really worked alongside and have ultimately fed into one another.

Marina Buksov: I have to admit that I was a little bit floundering in this area before with actually tracking things. Like you were saying, it’s really important to bounce ideas and to talk about what’s happening, what are the wins, what are the challenges, and to actually put that into numbers and see in that way how your business is actually doing because numbers don’t lie, as they say. So that part of it, actually tracking and putting things down as data and analyzing it, you know, you can just remove some of the stigma that’s attached to OK, is this number a win or a fail? And actually, just view it as a statistic that is showing you OK, what can you improve on based on these numbers? You know, which area needs improvement? Which area is doing well? So that way, you can focus your resources and your time and energy on improving the things that aren’t doing well and doubling down on the things that are. But unless you track it and use numbers, you really won’t know. And so same thing with my business. You know, for a long time, I was reluctant to even put down numbers that are coming in from clients and balancing the checkbook and all of those kind of business tasks because it’s like a hassle because it’s another thing for you to do, but I realized that it’s very important and it actually gives you the clarity and the confidence with what needs to be done next because another thing that was a challenge for me is to learn how to prioritize. And so when you see the numbers in front of you, you see what needs to be done first. You know, what is an area that really needs your help and attention right now? And what scenario that can wait? And often, you know, I spread myself thin. I’m sure many other people do, trying to do all the things. But really, we need a structured guide so that you mentioned before, not to burn yourself out by all the business activities and to really have this focused plan of intention and a plan of action, which can really be informed by the numbers. So when earlier this year, you know, I was investing in coaching programs all these past years and really wanted to take my business to the next level and wanting to leave my job full-time, that’s when we started to — actually last year at this time, so about a year ago, my husband and I decided to look into a financial planner because we wanted to know, you know, where do we stand financially personally? And where can we be confident in making a certain buffer for ourselves so that we can take certain risks with our business? I think that’s really important to have a plan and to expect some setbacks. Nothing is going to be smooth sailing. You know, the past few years taught me that. But I decided it was really important to look at the numbers and to create a buffer, which we were comfortable for a certain period of time so that we give ourselves that safety zone from which the business could grow. And again, that’s always a risk. Is the business is going to take off exactly per our plan, our projections, or not? So shameless plug to YFP: I was working with YFP, and I found that I really didn’t know much because this is not my area of interest, right? Accounting and counting numbers, I am more into health and wellness and getting results for my clients. I would like to dedicate my time for those kind of things. But living in the real world, you do have to think about personal finances and business finances and retirement and putting away money for more expenses than you even are expecting because —

Tim Ulbrich: Boring, right?

Marina Buksov: Yeah, a lot of us live paycheck-to-paycheck, and we don’t realize, you know, we need to set aside money for this or we need to plan an estate or we need to maybe save for education for our kids or if you are a homeowner, there’s many hidden expenses that pop up that you don’t expect. So we decided it was time for us to kind of get a realistic perspective and reality check so that we can be more confident in the business side of things. And so I highly recommend working with a financial advisor that has your best interests at heart and doesn’t just want to sell you things with commission attached.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think for Marina, you mentioned some of the value that can come from the technical side, right, of the financial plan. I know for Jess and I and our journey, which I think is something that others may find value in, is sometimes when you’re in the weeds of your own financial plan, it’s really hard to see outward, right? And having somebody as a third party, you know, thinking of spouses or couples that might be working with a planner specifically, where you can have somebody ask really good questions that get you thinking, that get you talking, that get you really evaluating like, what is the true risk on this scale, right? And I think that while I don’t want to categorize all pharmacists as being risk-averse, I think sometimes we view financial decisions on that end — and I’m certainly not promoting that we go out and make crazy financial decisions, right. We’ve got to take care of our future self. But we’ve also got to live a rich life today. And part of what I’m hearing through this interview, Marina, for you is living a rich life was pursuing this passion that not only was only important to your physical and emotional health but also what you saw as an opportunity to bring this information to other healthcare practitioners and ultimately the patients that they serve to be able to have an impact. And that’s an investment worth making, right, in being able to see that through, whether it’s a coach, whether it’s a financial planner, and certainly all the other investments you’ve made in getting the business up. Marina, I’m thinking back to your journey where you mentioned, ‘Hey, I’m graduating pharmacy school. Yeah, it’s been an interesting ride, but I don’t really feel like I fit, right? I don’t fit in a traditional mode of fellowship or of residencies or, you know, community pharmacy or inpatient practice. And so I suspect we have a lot of other people that might be feeling that, whether it’s students that are maybe questioning was this the right decision or I’m not sure where I’m going to go or practicing pharmacists that might feel the pull to explore another area of pharmacy and how their pharmacy degree could be used but they just don’t know where to go, who to talk to, where to start. What advice would you have for folks that are out there that are listening and feeling like, I’m just not sure I really fit in this whole pharmacy thing. Like where do I go? What do I do?

Marina Buksov: Yeah, so I think the best thing to do is really dip your toes, just like I was talking about how I selected a diverse variety of rotation sites for myself in APs and FPs. As much as possible, I tried to diversify. I worked in insurances, worked in different settings, pharmaceutical industry, basically everything was super different. And that taught me, actually, what I liked and what I didn’t like because just getting a glimpse into a setting and how it would be like to work there and the day-to-day, how to assess what they’re doing on their back end and how you feel about that and then giving you a sense of if you can climb the ladder in that space, if it’s more corporate or not. So you can kind of picture yourself in those spaces and see do you feel good there? And does this agree with your inner wiring or your ethics? Because for me, I found that I really wanted to make an impact. That was important to me to use my skills in a way that was impactful and that I felt I was creating good in the world. And I saw that as targeting the low-hanging fruit, you know, how we can improve on a large scale our public health and self-care by education and by self-care. That’s really my mission, what it really boils down to. And the other settings for me didn’t provide that level of impact. You know, there was some personal gratification or again that prestige aspect in some settings, but I was not on the same mission as those settings and what they were doing. So I didn’t feel like I fit in there. On the other hand of the spectrum, even if you don’t get to go on a variety of rotation sites, you can find your own opportunities. So actually, I had a bunch of students reach out to me. And I might be a preceptor someday soon.

Tim Ulbrich: Oh, fun.

Marina Buksov: And then besides — nowadays, yeah, the opportunities are crazy because we’re in a virtual world. But you can also just reach out locally. So when I was considering going to herb school — actually, before I even knew there was a thing because that’s another missing knowledge gap because I didn’t even know there was such a thing — so before I even knew somebody had recommended that I check out an herb shop as a place where I could practice alternative pharmacy. So I went to a local herb shop and asked the owner to give me an internship, which he did. So there is plenty of ways you can create your own opportunity and learn from the experience and empirically applying yourself there. It’s going to teach you so much more than what you can read in a blog or a book. So that’s really what I recommend. And when I was in the shop, that’s when I decided to go to this school and get a more formal education because I did see myself aligning with that and being interested to learn more. So I think exposing yourself to experiencing is the best teacher. So whatever way you can do that locally or virtually nowadays and get somebody to mentor you or again, if you’re able to invest in a coach if let’s say you’re not a student but you’re a pharmacist, it is worth it to have some level of guidance or mentorship.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, great advice and wisdom, Marina. And back to a comment that you made earlier. You either win or you learned along the way, correct? And I think of maybe students who have some of those opportunities to choose rotations and get out there and network. But for pharmacists that are out there, you know, don’t let that be a hindrance. You know, reach out to folks like Marina. Reach out to folks in other nontraditional areas. You know, have several conversations. People are very willing typically to meet. And I think not only will that networking be really valuable, but I think it will also stimulate hopefully some ideas and conversations and lead to other connections that will affirm areas of interest and hopefully generate some ideas as well. Marina, I really appreciate you taking the time to share your story. I’m looking forward to following your journey in the years ahead. And I have a feeling you have inspired folks that are listening and perhaps in their own journey, whether they may be on moving forward with some of the ideas that they have of their own. So Marina, as we wrap up, where can listeners go to learn more about you and the work that you’re doing and to connect with you?

Marina Buksov: Yes, so the website you mentioned, it’s DrMarinaBuksov.com. And it has all the links to my social media. But I am on Facebook and Instagram and even TikTok nowadays. So you could reach me everywhere at @DrMarinaBuksov. And you can also search by my business name, which is Raw Fork.

Tim Ulbrich: Great. We’ll link to those in the show notes. And again, Marina, thank you so much for your time.

Marina Buksov: Thank you so much, Tim.

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YFP 216: Common Credit Blunders to Avoid When Buying a Home

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Common Credit Blunders to Avoid When Buying a Home

On this episode, sponsored by IBERIABANK/First Horizon, Tony Umholtz discusses common credit blunders when buying a home.

About Today’s Guest

Tony graduated Cum Laude from the University of South Florida with a B.S. in Finance from the Muma College of Business. He then went on to complete his MBA. While at USF, Tony was part of the inaugural football team in 1997. He earned both Academic and AP All-American Honors during his collegiate career. After college, Tony had the opportunity to sign contracts with several NFL teams including the Tennessee Titans, New York Giants, and the New England Patriots. Being active in the community is also important to Tony. He has served or serves as a board member for several charitable and non-profit organizations including board member for the Salvation Army, FCA Tampa Bay, and the USF National Alumni Association. Having orchestrated over $1.1 billion in lending volume during his career, Tony has consistently been ranked as one of the top mortgage loan officers in the industry by the Scotsman’s Guide, Mortgage Executive magazine, and Mortgage Originator magazine.

Summary

Tony Umholtz, a mortgage manager for IBERIABANK/First Horizon, discusses the impact of credit on purchasing a home and common credit blunders that he has encountered when working with pharmacists during the lending process for the pharmacists home loan product.

Tony explains how credit and your credit score can impact your home buying process. Your credit score can affect your interest rate for a home loan. He details how credit information is collected and how the three main credit bureaus, Experian, TransUnion, and Equifax, aggregate your FICO score. Tony lays out how the scores are calculated, with payment history making up 35% of the score, credit utilization making up 30%, length of history with 15%, and credit mix with 10%.

Some common blunders that Tony has seen when working with pharmacists include having no credit or limited credit history, maxing out a 0% interest rate credit card, and relying on third-party credit tools for an accurate FICO score. Tony further shares that clients may not be checking credit reports and correcting errors that may appear on those reports. During the home loan process, borrowers have also made the credit blunders of co-signing for a loan without fully knowing how it would impact their credit and applying for credit for large purchases like a car or furniture for the whole before the sale is final. The lender knows and can see those last-minute credit applications and changes, and those changes can impact your loan approval.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tony, welcome back to the show.

Tony Umholtz: Hey, Tim. It’s good to be here.

Tim Ulbrich: Excited to have you back on. And last time we had you on was Episode 204, where we talked about the current state of buying, selling, and refinancing a home. And we’re going to link to that episode in the show notes. But Tony, before we jump into the meat of today’s episode, give us the update from your perspective on what’s happening out there in the home buying market. Anything cooling off?

Tony Umholtz: Well, you know, it depends on what you mean by cooling off. It’s still — we’re still kind of dealing with a lot of the same challenges we’ve had this past year with inventory levels are still very, very low. But there’s still a lot of demand from home buyers. And you know, hopefully we’ll see some of that additional inventory come online soon. But with interest rates continuing to decline throughout the summer, there’s still a lot of demand for both new purchases and refinances.

Tim Ulbrich: I suspected as much as interest rates came back down. I know we saw a little bit of a jump up and have come back down since. So appreciate the perspective that you share on that. And so today’s episode, the idea for this episode came from a conversation Tony and I had back on Episode 191 where we talked about 10 common mortgage mistakes to avoid. And on that episode, one of those mistakes we talked about was credit. But we wanted to dig deeper, knowing that there’s a lot more to discuss and also to hear from Tony as he can share more about some of the experiences and what he sees folks making often in terms of credit mistakes that might have an impact on their lending situation and through the process. And so you know, these mistakes could lead to surprises, which surprises during the home process, home buying process, are certainly not good things. We want to avoid that. And that could be surprises in the form of a higher interest rate or surprise credit score. And again, we want to do everything that we can to avoid that and making sure that we’re ready and prepared going into the home buying and into the lending process. Tony, before we get into the common mistakes that you see folks making around credit when purchasing a home, let’s start with the mechanics. How does credit information get into one’s lending application? When does this happen? And how does a borrower get rated?

Tony Umholtz: Great question. And you know, there’s really three large repositories that aggregate all of our information as consumers. And that’s Equifax, Experian, and Transunion. So those are the three main bureaus that are out there that are gathering all the data on our credit histories. So for example, you know, any credit cards that we may have, even starting as young as 18 years old, you know, installment loans, car loans, anything — mortgage loans, student loans, all these types of creditors are evaluated by the three bureaus. So they aggregate all the data, our payment history, our performance, how long we’ve had credit, so those are essentially the three bureaus that are kind of watching us, so to speak.

Tim Ulbrich: And I want to dig in a little bit further about the impact one’s credit score can have on their application, ultimately the interest rate in terms of they’re able to access. So before we look at the numbers, remind us the components of one’s credit score, Tony. I’m specifically thinking here about the FICO score.

Tony Umholtz: Yes. So you know, typically when we look at the FICO score — and we’re starting to see a re-emergence of other scoring models, but the primary driver of our credit scores is going to be our payment history. So payment history is by far the biggest driver of our credit score. So meaning on time payments, not having a 30-day delinquency. And I want to just touch on this for a minute because it’s something that’s come up a lot over my career, my nearly 20 years in the business is let’s just say — we just had this incident with one of my borrowers this past week where they did not get a credit card statement. They were selling their house prior to buying the new home they were buying. And he missed a credit card statement that came to the home. And if it’s over 30 days late, you’re reported to the bureaus. So if it’s 15 days late, you’re not reported to the bureaus as a delinquency. But if it’s over 30 days, then it becomes late. So it’s — that’s a question that comes up a lot. And unfortunately, it’s something we had to navigate here at the last minute.

Tim Ulbrich: Oh man.

Tony Umholtz: But payment history is the biggest driver. The next would be credit utilization. And that primarily is going to be driven on revolving credit accounts. And what I mean by revolving credit accounts is going to be your credit cards that you might have or lines of credit. And those are essentially going to be evaluated based upon how much you have borrowed on that card. For example, I always advise people to try to stay at 50-70% of their credit limits. And what that means — so let’s say you had a $10,000 credit limit on your credit card and you ran it up to $9,000 balance. Well, that’s going to report adversely to the creditors, credit bureaus. And remember, credit utilization is 30% weighting of your score. It’s a big weighting. But that’s the other really big driver of your credit history. Those two alone are like 65% of the weighting of what determines your credit. And then the next couple I would say, just to add in here, is length of credit history, you know, the longer you’ve had credit, good credit, the better that’s going to weigh on your score. That’s usually about a 15% driver. And then your credit mix is about a 10% driver. So the types of credit you have is very important too. You know, do you have experience with — you know, a lot of times, people will come in before they buy their first home and they have maybe a car loan, student loans, credit cards, but they haven’t had a mortgage yet. And a lot of times the mortgage will add more — a stronger credit mix. It would be viewed stronger because it’s a bigger installment loan. It’s a little tougher to get. And then the last driver of your score is inquiries. A lot of people will call me and say, “Tony, the inquiries really hurt my score, and I don’t want this to damage my score.” But they really have the least amount of impact on your score. If you go and have a tremendous amount of them at one time, that can hit your credit a little bit. But normally, a couple of inquiries isn’t going to have much of an impact.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and it sounds like, Tony, you mentioned several components here, but low hanging fruit, you mentioned payment history, so on-time payments, and then credit utilization, how much of that balance is used each month in terms of the revolving amount. Those two alone making up more than 60%. So you know, I think being in tune of if you’re looking to really optimize credit, I think of some tips here that folks may want to consider, specifically with payment history and on-time payments, something like automatic payments, right? Obviously we want to make sure we’ve got the funds to pay that money, you know, in the account that that’s coming from, but the example you gave of someone not getting a mailed statement, hopefully folks can get electronic statements, you know, as a backup to help prevent that. But something like automatic payments can really help make sure that we don’t have something like that happen, especially if you’re in the midst of purchasing a property where the timing of that is less than ideal. I would also point folks here to an episode, 162. Tim Baker and I talked about Credit 101, and what Tony just mentioned there of the makeup of a FICO score was one part of that discussion. But we also talked about credit security, the importance of understanding your credit, how credit really is a thread across the financial plan, and so credit being a very important topic as it relates to the financial planning process. Tony, I’m someone listening today, and I feel like I’ve got a good idea of my credit score. And the question that comes to mind here is how significant of an impact can this have on securing the best rates and terms? And so you know, what I’m thinking of here is 30-year mortgage, maybe because of a higher or lower credit score, we’re looking at maybe a quarter of a percent. And maybe that doesn’t look as much of a big deal on paper as it actually can be mathematically, so tell me about what the impact of this might be.

Tony Umholtz: Well, the longer term the loan is, the more impactful your credit history — your credit scores are going to be. So it’s a good point, Tim, because you know, for example, if you have a 710 score versus a 740, you’re going to get probably about an eighth to a quarter better rate on a 30-year loan having over a 740. Typically on most of our mortgages, over 740 does not get much more benefit.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Tony Umholtz: So a 740 score versus an 800 score isn’t going to see a huge benefit. Some of the jumbo loans that get over $550,000 may see a little bit more of a benefit because they have some pricing matrices — the matrix will go up to 780 or higher. But where you really see the impact is like if you’re under 700, right, and you’re at 660 versus even a 700, talking about a large margin risk profile added to the loan, especially on a 30-year fixed. One thing I do want to mention that I think it’s important is the shorter the term, especially on a 15-year fixed, the more flexibility you have with the credit score. So I’ve even had some customers that have been under 700 and it really impacted their 30-year rate, but the 15-year rate stayed the same because the hits don’t really adjust to that until you get even lower because a lower term, you’re paying back the loan faster.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that makes sense. And I would encourage folks, even though that may not seem significant, eighth of a percent, quarter of a percent, when you’re talking about Tony’s comment, a 30-year mortgage, $400,000 or $500,000 home, you know, that can start to add up in terms of obviously difference in monthly payment because of that interest as well as the difference in what you’re going to pay over the life of the loan. And here, we start to think about opportunity costs, right? Where else might that be used in other parts of the financial plan, whether it be investing, other debt repayment, and so forth. So now that we’ve talked about the makeup of the FICO and really understanding that score components and the impact that that might have, let’s talk about some of the common mistakes that you see, Tony, folks that make when they’re applying for really any loan but here, we’re going to talk about the pharmacist home loan a little bit more specifically. And the first one I have here is no or limited credit history. So we’ve been talking for the last five minutes or so about the importance that, you know, a higher credit score can have in getting more favorable rates and terms. So if someone’s listening and they have limited credit history or no credit history, what are the problems that can present themselves there? And what are some of the solutions that they can pursue?

Tony Umholtz: Well, it’s one of those things where especially if you’re young, it’s hard to come right in with very established credit. But I would suggest, I mean, just a couple points here. You know, one thing that — and I didn’t realize, and I’ll just take my own example. But I remember my first day, first month let’s just say, of my freshman year of college, there was a credit card company on campus where you could get a credit card, right? And being the finance major that I am, I was one of those guys that didn’t charge much but used it here and there. And it helped me with my credit history. And I’ve seen that. If you can get even a small credit card even in college, even if it’s got a couple hundred dollar limit, and you use it as a wise steward, right, you’re not out there running it up, I think that’s a great way to start building your credit. That really helped me because I had a solid credit score coming out of college. And I see that with other people too. Now, student loans being paid on time, that all helps as well because student loans will show up quickly too. I do have a situation now with a client that we’ve had to like rebuild their — they had no credit. They had zero credit history, right? So there’s no score. And that becomes a real challenge, especially — I mean, for example, the pharmacist home loan, we do — you don’t have to have a real in-depth credit history. You really can have a fairly young credit history, but you have to have a score. You know, we have to know what that score is. The only other option we have if you have no credit score that we have available is FHA where we essentially kind of have to build your credit history to some degree. But that’s kind of a rare thing these days. But that’s — every now and then, we run into that. I would just say to start building it early. Having some credit is not a bad thing. Just be responsible with it.

Tim Ulbrich: Tony, I’ve heard you say that before about for those that have no or limited credit history, the FHA is an option and building credit. Tell me more about what you mean by that.

Tony Umholtz: So when we say building credit, we essentially are using other types of forms — like for example, you might have paid auto insurance, right, or utility bills, or rent. We’re able to pull some of these other types of elements of payment history together to show responsibility and the ability to repay. So those are some of the things that we’ll actually use to build the credit history as well as we suggest to get a credit card or something to that effect to — depending on their timing and when they want to buy to start developing that so they can at least get a score. But having a score is pretty critical to get the best loans, you know. Really the only one that we have out there is FHA that will allow us to work without a credit score.

Tim Ulbrich: Got you. Another common mistake I’ve heard you mention is, you know, folks that might have purchased an appliance, piece of furniture, there’s several examples of this, on a 0% interest card and not realized the impact that that might have when they’re going through the lending process and purchasing a home. Tell us more about that.

Tony Umholtz: You know, this is another one, Tim, that I learned firsthand personally when I was young and lots of my — I’ve seen it many times over the years with my clients, but you know, I’ll give the example of buying furniture. Fortunately, I did this after I bought my home. I was 25 I think at the time. It was a long time ago. But essentially, I went into a furniture store, was able to buy all this furniture, and they said, “Hey, by the way, that $4,800 in furniture, we’ll give you a credit card where you don’t have to pay interest for over a year.” I said, “Well, that sounds great. Let’s do it.” And you won’t have to make payments for over a year. Well, unfortunately, how those credit cards work — and they’re in all sorts of retail goods. It’s not just furniture. There’s a lot of different promotions out there. It reports to the bureaus as a maxed-out credit card. So you know, a lot of electronics companies are the same way. They’ll offer this to you. And you’ve just got to beware because it’ll report to the bureaus as a maxed-out credit card. And as we discussed, 30% of our weighting of our credit score is based upon credit utilization. If we show a maxed-out credit card, that’s going to be a big hit to our score. And I see that a lot. It’s unfortunate. But it comes up a lot.

Tim Ulbrich: And you taught me that, Tony. I did not know that that was often viewed as a maxed-out credit card. So obviously what we just learned about FICO and utilization, that makes a whole lot of sense of the impact that that could have. So we talked about no or limited credit history, we talked about buying an appliance or piece of furniture or something like that on a 0% card. The other thing I’ve heard you mention several times — and I think we’re seeing more and more as folks are using more of these tools — would be relying on a third-party credit app or tool, whether it be something like CreditKarma, CreditSesame, when we’re relying on that for credit score information that may not match up necessarily with what you’re seeing on the lending side. Is that correct?

Tony Umholtz: That’s right, Tim. Yeah. That’s right. And I think this is an important topic because there’s a lot of variables out there. And I don’t want to say that these like a CreditKarma and some of the other apps and trackers aren’t legitimate and helpful. They certainly are. And they give you a good idea of the trend of your credit score and how you’re performing. The one thing I would caution everyone on, though, is it’s not typically indicative of what your score is to a creditor. Now, mortgage companies in particular, we run what’s called a tri-merge report, which is all three bureaus. So we’re going to see Equifax, Experian, and Transunion’s, each of them give us a score, provide us a score. And we take the median score. So mortgage lenders take the media score where — and the same thing would apply for like a commercial loan if you’re getting commercial loan for a building or something of substance. An auto company, if you’re buying a car, will often just pull one. So they may just pull Experian, right? Or Equifax. So you know, a lot of times there is a little bit of variability in our scores. And they can be different. Our Equifax score could be potentially be 750, our Experian could be 739, and our Transunion might be 730. Well in that case, you’re at 739, not over 740. And that’s where I see the mistake come up because a lot of these trackers will show you a score that’s a little higher than what we would see. And a lot of my customers send me — my clients will say, “Hey, here’s my report, here’s my credit score.” And it’s oftentimes a lot different than what we pull. But I think there’s a lot coming on scores over the next couple years. I think you’ll see different ways of risk assessment. It hasn’t hit us yet, but I think rental performance will come into play more too. It’s important to always pay our rents on time. You know, traditionally that didn’t always come up on reports. But I think there’s going to be some other elements that are going to potentially help us. And I think you’ll see that the medical collections take less weight on the reports. We’re already seeing that too, which is really a blessing for a lot of people that have had things happen.

Tim Ulbrich: Tony, I can see this playing out. You know, you gave a good example where somebody might be on that line, let’s say a 740, and they think because of what they see on CreditKarma or CreditSesame that they’re going to be above that and then come to find out that they’re not, and that obviously can have a surprise and be an impact on rates. And you know, I’m sure — it reminds me of the patient that might walk through the doors of the pharmacy and be upset with the pharmacist because of what they get through claims adjudication on the insurance side. And the pharmacist is often not deciding that price, but the reality is they’re the person that’s in front of the patient. And I suspect here, that can be much of the same where they may be surprised and take it out on you guys sometimes.

Tony Umholtz: It happens.

Tim Ulbrich: It happens, right?

Tony Umholtz: We’re the messenger.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. It’s an emotional process.

Tony Umholtz: It is. One thing that we find that’s been helping too is we have a tool as part of our platform here that can actually tell — we can see what credit — what the scoring potential for a client based upon activities they could do to their report such as paying down debt, consolidating a card or whatever it might be. So it actually — we are able to a lot of times add some value to help people get their scores a little higher. We’ve had a lot of success with that.

Tim Ulbrich: The next one I have here, Tony, is borrowers that may not be checking their credit reports and therefore identifying and correcting any errors that could lead to higher rates. And this one is really something that I find interesting. You know, I do an activity in a personal finance course that I teach where I have folks actually go out, pull their credit reports, analyze them, and then they write a reflection on kind of what they learned. And the trends I have found is that about 50% of the students No. 1, have never checked credit before, have never run a credit report. And then the number of folks that are surprised by what they find on that credit report. So any insights here, even any examples that come to mind of where this can be problematic, especially when you’re in the midst of trying to secure a loan and secure a loan at the best rate?

Tony Umholtz: I think it’s really important for everyone to take advantage of the free credit reports that are out there. You know, the annualcreditreport.com. You’re allowed to have one copy from each bureau per year. And I think that’s something that we all need to do. And the surprises I think are hey, I thought I canceled that credit card years ago, right? And sometimes having open credit — it doesn’t hurt you. But you may not want to have a whole bunch of things out there just from a fraud risk potential. But — and making sure that you’re not attached to things you don’t want to be attached to. You just — in this day and age, you never know, and especially if you get into partnerships and cosigning and things like that, you’ve got to be really careful about what you’re attached to and knowing what entities your credit, you’re attached to. That’s one thing I would just caution because I’ve seen some problems come up with cosigning and people not being aware that they did or applications from everything from student loans to auto loans to business loans. And then just there is a lot of fraud out there, you know? And I think that I’m on LifeLock. I’m not trying to promote anything, I just, I’ve put that on me and my wife’s accounts just so we know what’s going on, right, in case anything ever were to happen we’d be made aware. But certainly would encourage everyone to do that. And you know, I think just knowing what’s out there. I know when I did it one time, I had a credit card that I hadn’t used in like 6-7 years and it was still open, right? If you don’t use it, might want to close it.

Tim Ulbrich: And I’m glad you mentioned the cosigner because I do think that’s something that we hear and see often from the community, whether that’s student loans, whether that’s auto loans, whatever be the situation, obviously there’s a potential risk there of late payments, somebody may or may not be aware of that and the impact that that could have during the credit and obviously impact that could have on your credit and then the surprise that could present during the lending process. Tony, last one I want to talk about here before we wrap up by talking about the pharmacist home loan product is applying for credit before sale is final. And I think many of us who have gone through this process, we’ve gotten the advice of, do as little as you can in terms of new credit or inquiries or anything during this process. But give us some more details, not only why is this important but what is the time period that we should be thinking about this because I sense that there are listeners out there that might be buying a home and also be thinking about refinancing their loans, for example.

Tony Umholtz: Right. And this one is really important, guys, if you’re in process for a home loan because us lenders, we know what you’ve applied for during the process. We’re notified if you secure a new loan. So for example, one that comes up a lot is a new auto loan, a — furniture for the home. I’ve seen that quite a bit. And a lot of our clients are proactive and ask the question first. And we will look and see. If it’s something like hey, my car absolutely won’t work anymore, I need to get a new one, we’ll look and see, will that impact you. We’ll include that new payment into your numbers so it doesn’t affect your home closing. But normally, you want to try to postpone any activity, new credit, when you’re in the mortgage process until after you close just because there’s a lot of risk there, right? It’s a big transaction. You do not want to jeopardize it with new credit because we do know about it. We will know. We are notified if you open anything up. And that’s a really important point if you’re in the process. So I would just caution everyone to be very careful with that. And I will give the classic example. Before they tracked, this is going back probably 2005, I remember I went to this closing for a client of mine, and it was a fairly nice home. And he goes, “Hey, Tony, look at my new car I bought last week!” And the guy had bought a new Porsche, right? This is before we had the trackers. I’m like, don’t tell me this. Oh, don’t tell me that. But anyway, nowadays, we do know what activity has happened. And be very careful. And if you have to do something, just speak to your lender first before you officially apply for any other types of credit during the process.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that’s where my mind was going, Tony, just knowing the examples that might come here, right? It could be credit, we talked about some of these already, furniture, appliances, student loans, auto loans. Like there’s a lot of things that could come up here, and I think just open communication with the lender if you have questions to make sure that you’re not doing anything that’s going to jeopardize obviously, again, the goal here being that we get the best loan at the best term, you know, and ultimately the best rate so that we can keep the cost of interest low throughout the life of the loan. So Tony, we’ve talked about the makeup of the FICO score, understanding what feeds into that score. We talked about the impact that that could have on someone’s rate and their ability to secure that competitive rate. We talked about some of the common mistakes that you see folks making around credit in the home buying. And I think this is a good connection to the pharmacist home loan product. And I know many of our community members are familiar with this from previous episodes, information we have on the website, but for folks that are hearing this for the first time, give us some more information about the pharmacist home loan, what is it, how it’s different from other options that are out there in terms of down payment, PMI, minimum credit scores, and so forth.

Tony Umholtz: Sure. I mean, again, just a great tool for pharmacists to purchase a home. And the main points of it is you’re able to buy a home — if you’re a first-time home buyer, you could put down as little as 3% and have no PMI. And if you’ve owned a home before, it’s 5% down with no PMI. And that’s significant savings not having the MI but also the interest rates tend to be better than I can offer with a 20% down normal conventional loan for someone else, which is quite a nice opportunity for people. And the minimum credit score is 700. So it doesn’t have like a super high credit threshold. And it’s flexible on reserves and things like that. You know, some programs have very strict reserve requirements, and this one has some flexibility there, has some flexibility on how we value student loans, and you don’t have to be — you know, one of the other things that a lot of doctor loan programs have out there is some of them have restrictions if you’ve been out of residency for 10 years, you can’t use the product. This one does not have those limitations. So it’s — it’s been a great tool for a lot of people. And we’re very pleased that we can offer it.

Tim Ulbrich: And we’ll put Tony’s contact information in the show notes for folks that want to reach out to Tony directly. Also, if you haven’t already done so, make sure to check out — we’ve got a great comprehensive post, very informational, that I think you’ll find helpful, “Five Steps to Getting a Home Loan.” And you can — in that blog post, which we’ll link to in the show notes — learn more about the pharmacist home loan product. We’ve got some calculators there as well. And that’s available at YourFinancialPharmacist.com/home-loan. Again, that’s “Five Steps to Getting a Home Loan” at YourFinancialPharmacist.com/home-loan. Tony, as always, appreciate your insights, your expertise in this area, and thank you for the time coming on the show.

Tony Umholtz: Hey, Tim, thanks for having me. It was great to be here.

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YFP 214: How Anna Got $127k Forgiven Through PSLF

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How Anna Got $127k Forgiven Through PSLF

Anna Santoro shares her journey of pursuing and receiving Public Service Loan Forgiveness.

About Today’s Guest

CDR Santoro received her Doctor of Pharmacy degree from MCPHS University and earned her Masters of Arts in counseling, specializing in emergency response and trauma from Liberty University. She is an officer in the US Public Health Service, assigned to the Federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP). In the BOP, CDR Santoro is a Mental Health Clinical Specialist at Federal Medical Center (FMC) Devens in Ayer, MA, and also serves as a Federal Bureau of Prisons’ (BOP) Regional Mental Health Clinical Pharmacy Consultant. CDR Santoro developed and implemented the BOP’s first Mental Health Clinical Pharmacy Program, and assisted with the expansion of pharmacy mental health services to >8 facilities with both inpatient and outpatient psychiatric pharmacist services as well as a national Mental Health Consultant program serving 122 institutions. Additionally, CDR Santoro is the Lead Consultant for pain management and for the Memory Disorder Unit at FMC Devens, the BOP’s only dedicated service for the treatment of inmates with dementia.

Summary

Finally, a real-life pharmacist who has received Public Service Loan Forgiveness! Anna Santoro, a pharmacist and officer in the U.S. Public Health Service, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about her journey to PSLF. She talks about what it felt like ultimately receiving PSLF, her experience along the way, and lessons she learned that ultimately may help other pharmacists pursuing the same path to loan forgiveness.

In 2009, Anna had about $225 in loans, with approximately $145,000 of those loans classified as federal loans. She prepared to live on a shoestring budget and make huge payments, loan payments more costly than her rent payment at the time, to keep up with those loans. Luckily a colleague provided some information on PSLF and Anna was on her 10-year journey to having $127,000 of those loans forgiven. She explains that the feeling of having the balance on the loans as zero was surreal, but something that she had worked for diligently, and it was fun to see the outcome.

Anna shared two of her challenges along the way that may help other pharmacists. While making her payments toward PSLF, she enrolled in a Master’s degree program, which triggered her loan payments to go into deferment while in school. Because PSLF required consecutive, on-time payments, Anna had to request her loans be taken out of deferment and never go into deferment for the reason of attending educational programs in the future. After making this request in writing, she was able to automate her payments once again. The second challenge that Anna shared was regarding her tax filings and how filing “Married – Filing Jointly” affected her income-driven repayments, which had to be adjusted after she updated her filing information to “Married – Filing Separately.”

For those pharmacists pursuing PSLF, Anna says, don’t get discouraged. Ten years is a very long time but seeing the final results makes it worth it.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Anna, welcome to the show.

Anna Santoro: Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: I’m so excited to have you on to talk about your journey of reaching Public Service Loan Forgiveness, PSLF, something we talk often about on this show, but a real, live pharmacist who has actually gotten forgiveness and excited about being able to feature your story, your journey, as others I suspect may be interested in learning about that journey, what worked, what went as planned, what didn’t go as planned, and we’re going to dig into all of that here in a moment. And for those that are listening, you know that we have talked about student loans in depth on this show. And we have covered loan forgiveness before as well. So if you want to go back and revisit some of that material, Episode 018, we talked about maximizing the benefits of PSLF; Episode 078, we talked about is pursuing Public Service Loan Forgiveness a waste and we’re going to dig into some more of where that background came for that episode on this show today; and then on Episode 187, we talked about how another pharmacist, Stephanie, got $72,000 forgiven through TEPSLF program. And so the PSLF program has definitely had its share of bad press, but I think it’s exciting and hopeful to see someone in our community reach the finish line. So Anna, tell us about your journey into pharmacy, what ultimately drew you into the profession, where you went to school, and some of the work that you’re doing now.

Anna Santoro: Yeah, absolutely. So I actually kind of fell into pharmacy. I originally went to undergraduate to become a Spanish teacher and worked in pharmacy to pay my way through school and realized that I absolutely loved it. Transitioned into pre-pharmacy my junior year of undergrad, and then I went to Massachusetts College of Pharmacy in Massachusetts for my pharmacy school. I did their three-year accelerated program. And I had all intentions of working retail pharmacy, kind of translating within the Hispanic community and using my language background. And through their program, one of the things that they did was kind of really try to expose you to different types of pharmacy. And I met a pharmacist who worked for the U.S. Public Health Service with the Bureau of Prisons. And she really just kind of found a new passion for myself and for my ability to kind of help serve others after meeting with her and kind of learning about her work. And she introduced me to a program within the U.S. Public Health Service where you can sign on as a scholarship student called Senior Costep, and you’re able to receive an income your last year of pharmacy school and then you repay that back for two years after you get out of school. So I ended up doing that and just decided, you know, serving and being able to serve in uniform, helping those who need and helping our country in times of emergency was just something that I really liked, and I liked the fact that it was always changing. Plus, working within the federal pharmacy field, you know, you’re working at the top of your license. You can do a lot more than I had initially realized that a pharmacist could do when I went in with the hope to be a retail pharmacist.

Tim Ulbrich: And another benefit, which we’ll get to through the rest of this interview, is obviously working for a qualified employer that opened up some of the PSLF opportunities. So before we go down that path, Anna, tell us about your debt position, what that was like after graduating, how much you ended up paying for school, and how much of that did you borrow with student loans?

Anna Santoro: Yeah, so I ended up doing five years of undergrad because I changed my major so late and then three years of graduate school. So I was really lucky, I had a scholarship as well as some parent help for my first four years of undergrad. For my last year, I ended up taking about $8,000 in loans and then I paid $10,000 for my tuition there. I ended up financing 100% of my graduate pharmacy school loans. So I came out of school with about $225,000 or so in loans altogether. It was a mix of federal and private. I had about $145,000 within the federal system.

Tim Ulbrich: OK. And that was 2009, just to give our listeners a timeline, 2009 when you came out of pharmacy school.

Anna Santoro: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: OK. So before we talk about your PSLF journey, I want to take a step back and give some quick background and information about PSLF to our listeners that might be hearing some of this for the first time or for folks that also want a refresher. And we talk about this in much more detail in our book “The Ultimate Guide to Pay Back Pharmacy School Loans,” and so I’d encourage folks to check that out, available at PharmDLoans.com. And as I mentioned a little bit earlier, PSLF has certainly gotten some negative press along the way. And we’re going to talk about whether or not that may be fair. And I believe, we believe, that despite its rocky past and in some regards, some questions around what the future means for PSLF, I believe that it’s one of the best payoff strategies available for pharmacists and without question is often the most beneficial to the borrower in terms of the monthly payment. Obviously the goal with forgiveness is try to maximize forgiveness, minimize the monthly payment, and then what that means for paying amount over the life of the loan and then what you’re able to do in terms of moving other financial goals forward as well. And so there are really several key requirements that folks need to be thinking about that are pursuing Public Service Loan Forgiveness. And for those that have read some of that negative press and perhaps are intimidated by PSLF, I think it’s often one of these rules and these requirements that folks may feel like there’s a burdensome process. And some of the horror stories you hear around PSLF ultimately come from folks that may not have followed one of these important steps along the way. So quickly, No. 1 is you have to work for the right kind of employer. That’s a government agency, a 501(c)3 not-for-profit, as well as some other not-for-profit organizations. No. 2 is you have to have the right kind of loans, and those are direct loans. So in some cases, you have to go through an important step of consolidation if you don’t have qualifying loans. No. 3 is you have to be in the right repayment plan, and that’s an income-driven repayment plan. Also counts would be the standard 10-year repayment plan, although that wouldn’t make a whole lot of sense since you’d pay them off. No. 4 is you have to make the right amount of payments, that’s 120 monthly payments that do not have to be consecutive but 10 years worth of payments. And then finally, you prove it and you apply for and receive tax-free forgiveness. And so now that we have some of that background information or reminder on PSLF, Anna, tell us about ultimately how much was forgiven for you and forgiven tax-free through PSLF.

Anna Santoro: Yeah, so I ended up — like I said, I started out with about $145,000 in loans, and when all in all was said and done, I think I had a little over $127,000 forgiven, all of it tax-free.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that — so just thinking of the math right there, $145,000 in federal loans, $127,000 forgiven tax-free, a little over a 10-year period, that just shows the impact of the interest on these types of loans, right? Because you obviously were making some of those income-driven payments along the way but still had a big chunk of that that was to be forgiven because of what that interest accrues. And I think a lot of pharmacists are feeling that they’re at a crossroads upon graduation with trying to figure out if they should work with a qualifying employer and pursue PSLF or if they should pay off their loans in the federal system sooner or perhaps even refinance them with a private lender. And of course, some folks inadvertently end up pursuing PSLF because of the work that they’re doing with a qualifying employer. And so my question here for you is how and why did you make the decision to pursue PSLF instead of some of the other options that are out there for loan repayment?

Anna Santoro: Yeah, so I originally went into the standard repayment. I was making the extremely large payments when I first got out of school. And I had a coworker who was like, “What are you doing? No. Here’s this program,” and basically gave me the phone number to call, helped me consolidate my federal loans so that I would be into a qualifying program, helped me enroll. And as we kind of got farther down the road when I first graduated, the National Health Service loan repayment option and a couple of the other loan repayments weren’t available for pharmacists. And as those changed, I really kind of had to make that decision of like, do I stay with this? Do I move over to this program? And I think I just kind of said, “Well, you know, it’s going well. I’m getting closer, I’m getting closer. Let’s just keep my fingers crossed.” But I was really lucky. I had no intentions of doing anything other than just paying off my loans and living on a shoestring budget while I did so at the beginning. But luckily, I had some really good colleagues who were looking out for me.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I too am glad you had the colleagues looking out for you because one of the things I share is that in 2021, the information I think available is a lot better for the borrower.

Anna Santoro: Yes.

Tim Ulbrich: You know, we have to remember this program was enacted legislatively in 2007, 10-year timeline at a minimum, so the first borrowers that were really starting to experience forgiveness, it’s not that long ago, right? And the information has gotten a lot better, and so I think sometimes some of the stories and so forth that we hear, it’s important that we have that context of what information available, folks had available. And when you graduated in ‘09, when I graduated in ‘08, I didn’t even know what Public Service Loan Forgiveness was, let alone the rules of what needed to be involved. And I think today’s graduate is certainly much better informed, of which I’m grateful for that. So $127,000 that was forgiven and forgiven tax-free. What was your journey like paying off these loans? Did you have any reservations or concerns about PSLF before you started or even during the forgiveness pathway?

Anna Santoro: So I think for me, it felt really similarly to like graduating from pharmacy school and taking the NAPLEX. Like I was working, and I was kind of doing all of the steps, but you just worry that until that — I mean, even up after I made my 120 payments — that the program’s going to shut down or I will have filled out a paperwork wrong or maybe even though U.S. Public Health Service has the words “public health” in it, they’re not going to accept it. So until I actually got the like, “Congratulations, your loans are forgiven,” and I saw that $0 balance, I think I kind of just always had a little bit of concern in the background. But you know, at the same time, I kind of said, “Well, it is the government and it is in writing, and so usually they have to uphold what they put in writing.” So I kind of said, “Well, let’s just do some blind trust and hope.” But luckily it worked out.

Tim Ulbrich: A little bit of trust there. And that’s one of the reasons I’m excited to share your story is I think it’s really helpful for folks to hear from another pharmacist, someone they can relate to, that has gone down this path that maybe had similar reservations and we’ll talk in a moment here about hiccups along the way. But some trust that’s involved as well in the process if you feel good about following those rules along the way. You know, one of the things, Anna, that I like to think about here is that it feels like everybody has their own PSLF story. And what I mean by that is we know the rules. I just listed them off one by one. But inevitably, everyone’s got some variation that happens, whether it’s with paperwork or dealing with the loan servicer or something unique to the employment situation or non-consecutive payments — I mean, there’s just a whole lot of different scenarios and situations that can come. So for you and your individual journey, were there any issues or hiccups along the way that yes, you got to that $0 balance but it also had some bumps along the road?

Anna Santoro: Yeah, actually two. So throughout my career, I work in clinical pharmacy and I decided to go back and get a Master’s degree to kind of further my education beyond just my PharmD. And when I enrolled in school, PSLF and the loan repayment program just automatically moved my loans into deferment because they said, “Well, you’re in school, so you don’t need to pay.” And I actually had to fight with them to say, “No, like I want to keep making my payments.” And with PSLF, one of the requirements is that it has to be an on-time payment. So even when they defer, I would have to call and say, “Please take my loans out of deferment, please take a payment today. I do not want this marked late.” And there was some question as to whether or not those payments that I even did make were going to count or not since I was having to do them manually. So I was a little concerned about that. But after my third semester of grad school, I actually reached — you know, sometimes you just get the right person on the phone. And they said, “Well, if you fill out a memo or send us an email saying you never want your loans to be moved into deferment because of in-school status, then this won’t happen again.” And so that was really helpful because then I didn’t have to worry OK, it’s August, or, it’s the beginning of a semester, double check that my loan — that my payment was taken out. So that was really helpful in being able to kind of finish my Master’s degree and not have to worry that those loans were being taken out. The other thing was when I graduated from pharmacy school, I wasn’t married, it was just my income. And then in 2013, I got married and didn’t even think about it, and I just started filing my taxes as married filing jointly. And my husband was in graduate school at the time. He actually went back to school to go to physical therapy. So the first three years that we were married, we had zero income on his income, so I just noticed that our total monthly payment went down because he was earning nothing, but now I had an extra person in our family size. But the year that he graduated and his loans came in and we sent our taxes in — or his income became factored in, I said, “Whoa, whoa, why is my payment three times what it used to be?” And I just kind of thought, OK, well this is how it is. Alright. It’s still better than if I was making the standard payment. And then I was actually listening to I think one of your podcasts, I think it might have been podcast No. 18 that you mentioned, and it said, don’t forget, file married filing separately. And I was just like, ohhhh. So luckily with PSLF, you can go in and adjust your income or say that you have an adjustment to a family size or adjustment to personal income really kind of at any time. So I went, I was able to refill out my income-based repayment and then did my taxes married filing separately from then on. And that made a huge difference in my payments. But I had about 18 months to two years where I paid probably double or triple what I should have.

Tim Ulbrich: I can tell you from sharing those, you’re going to have a positive impact on others. And thank you for sharing those because those are two common things I think pharmacists that might pursue additional degrees or training, right, that could be residencies that are combined with Master’s degree, I’m thinking of like Health System Admin, MBA, or even just Master’s, PhD programs that are independent of residency. So that probably is fairly common. And then certainly we know firsthand the tax situation is a common one and changes in tax situation. And I think this is a great example about why the tax part of the financial plan needs to be wedded and married to other parts of the financial plan and considerations that we make. You know, student loans and taxes in this case can very much go hand-in-hand, and we want to make sure we’re considering the implications here. So two great lessons that are learned along the way. Not glad that you had to pay a little bit extra along the way, but I am glad that we can help share some of that with other folks. What about the best moment or two that you had during this journey? I think so often we talk about the hassle and the hiccups and the bumps along the road, but some of the best moments on this journey in ultimating getting these loans forgiven.

Anna Santoro: So I had my loans forgiven earlier this year, so I was still paying through COVID, I knew exactly where I was on the payments. But I did not realize that the legislation because of COVID was going to — I know they said that we don’t have to make student payments, student loan payments. And I said, “Well, I’m just going to keep paying because I want to get my PSLF.” And I had no clue that it would change your payments to $0 payments and still qualify for PSLF. And I was actually having my check-in with Tim with Your Financial Pharmacist, and he was — I can still see his face on the computer — and he said, “Actually,” he’s like, “No,” he’s like, “This should be done.” He’s like, “So you have made your last loan payment.”

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Anna Santoro: And I remember thinking like, OK, no, like that didn’t just happen. How did I not get to enjoy my last loan payment? But then I said, that’s fine. And then once I hit my number of payments, I submitted all my paperwork, and I actually had three or four colleagues that were all — we all graduated together, we’re all within U.S. Public Health Service, we were all submitting and emailing. And we knew whose stuff had gotten submitted, like what day their applications were in. And one of my colleagues sent me an email — I knew her application was about two weeks ahead of mine — and she said, “My payments just went to $0. I’m good.” And so I started checking every day. And it was about 10:30 at night, I had logged on. I had logged on that morning and nothing, my normal student loan balance, and I remember checking in that night and all of a sudden it said $0.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome.

Anna Santoro: And I looked at it, and I looked at it again, and then I hit refresh, and then I logged out, and I looked at it again. And it was just so like surreal to see nope, that balance is gone and it’s $0. So that was really fun, just finally seeing it go to the $0 balance. It’s what you work for. So it’s fun.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, absolutely. And I would have done the same — I would have logged back in, logged back out, logged back in. I probably would have hit “Print,” you know, make sure it’s real and I have record of it.

Anna Santoro: I took a couple of photos with my phone.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Anna Santoro: Yeah. It was funny.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s cool. Obviously there’s that emotional joy of hey, we’ve had these steps, we’ve been following this journey for over 10 years, we finally see the $0 balance and there’s been some hiccups along the way. What a cool way to end too. So because of, you know, the COVID provision that you mentioned that there were $0 payments. But those were counting as qualifying payments. So you got to the finish line through those COVID provisions out of the CARES Act. What was the timeline or estimated timeline between when the last qualifying payment — even though it was a $0 payment — was made, what was the timeline from that to actually when the $0 balance showed up in your account?

Anna Santoro: OK, so COVID delayed some of that. But there were a couple of steps along the way. So I should have met, based on my calculations, had my final payment in August. I was able to submit my application in the beginning of October because once you meet your final payments, you then have to send in another annual certification because they have to certify that yes, the payments that you made for that last few months, even though you had — like I had my annual certification in March. They wanted another certification in August before I could send in my application. So after I did that, then I sent in an application and got that done in October. The big thing is you also have to show within the application that you are also still employed, even in the months in between and while they’re processing your paperwork. Then in October, because of COVID and government budgetary changes and all of that, they had kind of a delay of processing within their system. So my loan I think finally got approved in February. So it took a long time. But part of that is I think they tell you 60-90 days to process your application. Once they process your application, they then go in and re-audit every payment you’ve made. And I got really lucky in that they determined that even though they said I had made 120 payments, I had really made 124. And that was counting some $0 payments. It must have been more than that. I ended up getting refunded.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Anna Santoro: For four overpayments that I had made. So instead of being done — I guess my last payment was in March. So I should have been done in December of the year before.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Anna Santoro: But they don’t tell you, “Hey, we approved these overpayments.” They just say, “Hey, your filing approved,” and then refund you random money into your account.

Tim Ulbrich: Happy day.

Anna Santoro: Right? So I had to call them and say, “OK, what’s going on?” And they’re like, “Oh, those were overpayments that you had made. You had actually made 124 payments, so you will get these refunded back.”

Tim Ulbrich: OK. And that makes sense. It takes a little bit for the reconciliation of that to catch up, but another good reminder to try to keep your own records as well if there ends up being a discrepancy for whatever reason. One of the things, Anna, that we often say is that if you’re going to be in the forgiveness boat, like be in the boat, right? Don’t be half in and half out. What I mean by that is I think there’s a strategy in terms of maximizing forgiveness, which ultimately means minimizing what you’re paying out of pocket, which then naturally leads to the conversation of might I be able to pursue and move other financial goals forward if I’m pursuing loan forgiveness because I can then use some of those dollars that might be going towards student loan payments and allocate those towards other goals? And so for your situation, did pursuing PSLF allow you to focus on other financial goals beyond debt repayment that might not have otherwise been either possible or as likely if you were down more of that traditional standard repayment path?

Anna Santoro: Oh, absolutely. So I kind of set up my payments — I had automatic payments, so it just automatically came out on the 2nd of every month, and I knew I didn’t really have to worry about it. So I set up a budget based on what my loan repayment was and I was able to kind of move towards other goals within my life and my career. I was able to buy a house 2.5 years out of school, which now looking back on it, I’m like, wow, that was really fast. But at the time, I just said, “You know, I don’t want to pay rent. I want my money to be worth something and kind of get that equity.” So I was able to buy a house, put a good amount down on the house because I wasn’t having to put extra money into the loans. And then like I mentioned, when my husband and I got married, he ended up going back to school. So his first year of school, we weren’t sure what the budget was going to be like so we did end up taking out about $60,000 in loans for his first year of his physical therapy program. But after that, we said, “You know, we have this cash. Our budget is set. We know what these loan payments are going to be,” so we were able to pay the next two years of his doctorate degree in cash at the time. You know, we didn’t have to take out any loans. We paid $120,000 on his. And then we were used to his $0 income on our budget, so when he did start working, we were able to take his income and pay off that $60,000 that we borrowed for him within like 9 or 10 months of him being out of school, which was really nice. So by the time he was out of school and earning money maybe six years into the program, that extra income he earned really was just like extra for us, which was nice. Now we have kids, so we’re paying for child care and that type of stuff. But it was really nice to just be able to say, “OK, this is my payment,” and just kind of put it on the back burner, automatically taken out of my account, and it wasn’t this huge, crazy amount of money that we had to try to — you know, it wasn’t a second mortgage.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Anna Santoro: When I was making those first payments the first few months, it was more than my rent at the apartment that I was in at the time. So I can’t imagine having done that for 10 years and still be able to do the other financial things I was able to do.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that makes a whole lot of sense. Going back to the beginning of your story, a little over $225,000 in debt, $145,000 or so of that was federal, so just rough numbers, we know that if you’re paying that over a standard 10-year period, those are big monthly payments. And so the PSLF pathway and maximizing forgiveness, minimizing payments, sometimes it opens up the door, as it sounds like it did here, to be able to pursue other financial goals and here, one being obviously being able to pay most of a degree for your husband in cash and then pay off the rest of that balance quickly. So two doctorate degrees with $0 in the balance of either, no debt anymore, that’s great.

Anna Santoro: Plus my Master’s degree.

Tim Ulbrich: Oh yeah, that’s right! Plus your Master’s degree.

Anna Santoro: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Very cool. Now that your loans are out of the way — and the reason I want to ask this question is I talk with many folks that are graduating, within the first few years, and you know, I think sometimes the student loan mountain can seem so big that it’s hard to see what may be on the other side of it, right?

Anna Santoro: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: And now that your loans are out of the way, what other financial goals are you focusing on and are able to do so because you don’t have to worry about these monthly payments anymore related to the student loan?

Anna Santoro: So we had Murphy’s Law at our house. We got my student loans forgiven in February, and in April, we got a roof leak. So we have used all of the money that we would — well, not all — but we had to buy a new roof. So that has been kind of our big financial hit this year. But we have — the way we have our budget set up, we had a home repair budget, so we’re just working on kind of redoing that. Our goal over the next couple of years, we want to take a family vacation. But then I think we are going to be working towards kind of setting up a nest egg to possibly buy a vacation home or do a renovation on our house here, something like that. But we’re trying to kind of say, “OK, we’re used to making that payment, so let’s use that money in a thoughtful and meaningful way as we move forward,” versus just buying extra coffee or something small.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that’s great. I think the intentionality of that and the planning process of hey, we were putting these dollars towards student loans, and now what are some other goals that we can shift it and put these in other buckets that we want to see forward with other parts of the financial plan? That’s great. Last but certainly not least, Anna, what advice would you have for other pharmacists that are out there that are either actively pursuing PSLF, maybe considering it, and might even be a little bit skeptical about whether or not that path makes sense for them?

Anna Santoro: So I think the two things are — so I take a lot of students, and I’m always big with my students on this is — if you at all end up in a residency, in any type of employment with a qualified employer, enroll. If you’re enrolled now and the program closes, you get to stay in it. If you are a resident and you have no income, your payment will be $0, and that still qualifies, which is less money that you’re going to be paying 10 years down the road when you’re on payment 120 and you have an income. So that I think is huge is getting enrolled as soon as you can. And if you are a qualified employer for 2-3 years, and then you leave and you come back, you’re still enrolled and those payments still qualify. So I think that’s huge. The other thing is, you know, not to get discouraged. Ten years is a very long time and the six months it took for that application process after that seemed like eternity. But you know, watching it change and seeing the final results makes it worth it.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, absolutely. And I think your comment about the timeline and being patient, if you will, is another reminder of the value of colleagues and community and other people that are going through this as well so you don’t necessarily feel like you’re on an island and hopefully being able to share stories or we’ve heard many frustrations from folks that are calling in asking questions and often don’t feel like those questions are getting fully answered. We’re getting ready to turn the page — I’m sure you saw the news over the past couple weeks where the loan servicing company for PSLF is about to change, and I’m sure that’s going to mean maybe some good things in the long term but probably a whole lot of frustration in the short term. And so having that accountability, having that coach, having somebody alongside of you I think could be very powerful on this journey and really keeping that end goal in mind. So really exciting stuff, and great wisdom that you have to share there. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on the show, for sharing your story about getting $127,000 in federal loans forgiven through PSLF and certainly wishing you the best of luck in the future. So thank you again, Anna.

Anna Santoro: Yeah, thank you so much. I appreciate you having me.

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YFP 212: Checklist for Building a Strong Financial Foundation

Posted on by yfpadmin

Checklist for Building a Strong Financial Foundation

On this episode, sponsored by CommonBond, Tim Ulbrich shares his checklist for building a strong financial foundation.

Summary

Tim Ulbrich shares insight from one of his most popular talks for pharmacy students and recent pharmacy graduates, Preparing to Be Financially Fit. In this episode, he walks the listener through his checklist of five items and actions necessary for a solid financial foundation.

Develop and automate a monthly system: Not only is it a good idea to create a vision for success with tangible goals and a budget for each month, but it is also equally important to automate when possible to get out of your way when it comes to saving, investing, and planning.
Knock out the baby steps: Work to eliminate high-interest credit card debt and build your emergency fund.
Have a student loan repayment plan: Inventory your student loans and determine your starting point. Work on a strategy to pay loans down. Your repayment options may include tuition reimbursement or repayment, loan forgiveness, or refinancing.
Prepare for the catastrophic: This checklist item is referring to various types of insurance. Pharmacists should plan for potentially catastrophic events by ensuring that you are aptly insured both professionally and personally.
Develop a plan for long-term investing: Lastly, a long-term investing plan is key to your financial independence and freedom however that may look for YOU.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, everyone. Tim Ulbrich here, and I’m flying solo this week as we talk about a checklist for building a strong financial foundation. Now, we’re a little bit over the halfway point through the year, and perhaps if you were like me for this year, you set some big, audacious goals, hopefully some of those financial goals, at the beginning of this year in December or January. And here we are, and maybe those goals have fallen by the wayside or we’ve forgotten about them. And this is a great time of year to bring those goals back, dust them off, and see where we’re at and adjust and see what we need to make for the second half of the year. And that’s what we’re going to talk about today when we talk about a checklist for building a strong financial foundation. My hope is that whether you’re listening and you’re someone who’s got $300,000 in student loan and feel like you’re spinning your wheels with trying to figure that out among other goals or whether you’re listening and you’re someone who’s got a net worth of $1 million or more, my hope is that everyone can take at least one or two things away from this episode.

You know, it dawned on me that one of the most common talks that I give to a group of pharmacists or pharmacy students or residents is preparing to be financially fit. And in that talk, I talk about five things that I believe make up a strong financial foundation. And the way I describe that financial foundation is if we think about our financial plan as if we’re building a home, right, before we can talk about or even think about the upgrades or the remodel of the kitchen or finishing the basement or adding on that patio or deck or even upgrading our landscaping or lighting, we’ve better make sure we’ve got good foundation in place from which we can then grow and make some of those decisions. And the same is true with our financial plan. And so sometimes, we’ve got to go back to the basics no matter where we are at our financial journey and make sure that we’ve got a good, solid foundation in place, one that doesn’t have any cracks or if we identify cracks, we fill some of those cracks in so that we can build and walk confidently in our financial plan, knowing that we’ve done the hard work to put that foundation in place. And one of my key takeaways and hopes for this episode is that we can all recognize that building wealth, achieving financial independence, living a rich life, whatever we want to call it, is really dependent upon having a good, solid foundation in place. So I’m going to walk through five areas that I believe make up this foundation, a checklist for building that foundation and within each one of these, I’m going to provide some additional resources and more information that you can dig deeper on any one of these topics.

Alright, so let’s jump in. No. 1 is Developing and Automating a Monthly System. Developing and automating a monthly system. Now what I’m talking about here — and you probably figured this out — what I’m talking about here is a budget, right, is a system, is a playbook that we can follow each and every month. And then we automate that system and really get ourselves out of the way so we can ensure we achieve our goals. I often don’t lead with the term “budgeting” because it’s not flashy, it’s not exciting, but it’s so foundational to the financial plan, no matter what budgeting method or process that you use.

So in this first step of developing an automated monthly system, you know, a few things that we need to think about. No. 1 is we’ve got to have a vision. We have to know where we want to go before we can take some steps forward. So before we get into the weeds of what budget system or template or method or tool or app, we’ve got to know where we’re going, right? We’ve got to take a look up and see what’s the vision? What’s the path? What’s the guiding light for our financial plan and the decisions that we’re going to make and ultimately the goals that we want to achieve? And we do this by asking ourselves some big, yet important questions, questions like what does financial success look like for you? For you individually, what does financial success look like? How would you define that? You know, why do you care about this topic of money to begin with, right? Money is simply a tool. So why don’t we care about this topic of money. Or perhaps another question may be one that I ask to many folks. You know, if you were to fast forward 25 years and look backwards, what would need to happen that you would think to yourself, you know what, well done, really good job with that whole topic of personal finances? You know, we believe at YFP Planning that really good financial plan takes care of your future self but allows you to live a rich life today, right? We’ve got to have this balance of the future, we’ve got to be looking ahead. But we also need to be prioritizing the things that are most important to us today. So when we’re talking about developing an automated monthly system, we’ve got to first start with the vision.

You know, next from that vision, we’ve got to set some tangible goals, right? So we’ve got to come away from the clouds, come down from the clouds and that dream and vision we have, and let’s set some tangible goals. You know, what are three or four things that we want to achieve over the next 6 or 12 months such that if we achieve those, we’re on the path towards achieving our long-term vision. So we’ve got to set some tangible goals and the more specific, the better.

Then we’ve got to track our spending, right? We’ve got to look backwards and say, ‘OK, I’ve got this vision. I’ve got these goals. Am I actually spending in a way that’s going to allow me to achieve these goals?’ I always encourage folks to do a 90-day lookback at their spending. This can be humbling. This can be eye-opening at times. Often, we may underestimate our true expenses in any given category. And perhaps for some of you, that’s not the case. But this is a good snapshot, 90 days. We’re not necessarily just looking at one month, which may be an outlier for any reason, but getting a good average over a 90-day period of how we’re spending in any individual category of the budget.

Then once we’ve set the vision, once we have some tangible goals, once we’ve looked back at our spending, now let’s jump into the budget, right? And a good budget I believe is one that we’re really proactively thinking about how we’re going to direct our dollars and how they’re going to be spent and allocated toward the goals we want to achieve. It’s that proactive intention in addition to then tracking the expenses throughout the month. And then finally, we want to implement a system that can automate the process. You know, one of my favorite interviews on the YFP podcast was when I interviewed Dr. Daniel Crosby, who’s the author of “The Behavioral Investor.” And he studies how we think and behave around this whole topic of personal finance. And one of the things he said, which really resonates with me and his research supports, is that we often individually, ourselves and the decisions we make are often some of the biggest barriers that we put in front of our financial plan and achieving the goals that we want to achieve. And so automation, Ramit Sethi does a great job of talking about this in his book, “I Will Teach You to Be Rich.” Ramit Sethi talks about how automation can be one of the most powerful and profitable systems that you can build when it comes to your financial plan, right? So once we’ve done the hard work of setting the vision and we have some tangible goals and we know and can track our spending and we’re then able to set the budget, let’s put on automation, let’s fund our goals first, and let’s feel confident in knowing that we’ve developed a system that’s going to help accelerate our financial plan.

So that’s Step No. 1 here is Developing and Automating a Monthly System as we work towards this checklist for a strong financial foundation. Some resources here I would point you to is we’ve got an Excel budget template at YFP that we’ve developed. Certainly not the only way to do budgeting. At the end of the day, a good budget is one that works for you. But if you’re looking for a place to get started or perhaps to take a new, fresh look at the budgeting system you have, you can go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/budget and download that Excel template. Another resource here I would point you to is Episode 057 of the podcast. We talked about the power of automation in your financial plan. And so that may be another one to visit if you want to learn more about that concept of automation and how to implement that in your own system. So that’s Step No. 1, Developing and Automating Your Monthly System.

Step No. 2 is Knocking Out the Baby Steps. Now, if we think about the foundation as five physical bricks that’s making up a foundation, these five things that we’re talking about, I tend to think of this one, No. 2, Knocking Out the Baby Steps, as if it’s really the foundation of the foundation, if you will. Brick No. 1, right? And so we’re talking about the things here that for some of you that are listening, if you’re thinking, Tim, I just feel overwhelmed with multiple goals that I’m trying to achieve, I don’t know where to start. Perhaps I’ve got six figures of student loan debt. You know, I’ve got decisions that I need to make around some credit card debt. And I want to build an emergency fund or grow my emergency fund. I’m trying to purchase a home or I’ve got expenses for the family. I really want to accelerate my investing plan, and I just don’t know where to start and how to prioritize this. Knocking out the baby steps, this Step No. 2, is really meant to be the first step from which you then build even further. And the two things I’m talking about here are high interest rate credit card debt and emergency fund. So these are the two baby steps that we need to think about as we walk into our financial plan. Now I think these are fairly obvious, two things we’ve talked about on the show before, high interest rate credit card debt, we’re talking about here not any credit card expenses or bills that you pay off each and every month but rather that revolving credit card debt that’s accruing double digit interest, cards that are accruing 15-25% interest. And for obvious reasons related to that interest rate and the impact that that can have on the rest of your financial plan, we’ve got to knock that credit card debt out, that high interest rate consumer debt out as soon as possible. So think of this as really the piece where we need to stop the bleeding, right? We need to stop the bleeding before we can then begin to take some of these other steps forward.

The second part here of the baby steps is the emergency fund. We’ve talked about this before on the show, Episode 026, we actually talked about both of these things of baby stepping into your financial plan. And emergency fund, you know, some general rules of thumb that I think about are 3-6 months worth of expenses, 3-6 months worth of expenses. There’s some determination and of course decision-making in there. Is it 3 months? Is it 6 months? Is it somewhere in between? And that depends on several factors. We’re looking here, in my opinion, at an emergency fund as a place where we’re not necessarily very excited about the growth or the interest or the accrual of that account. This is the place where we want this account to be liquid and accessible, where we can get to this money when an emergency happens without disrupting the rest of our financial plan. So we’re going to be doing our investing elsewhere in the financial plan, right? So we want this to be liquid, we want it to be accessible, perhaps it’s going to earn a little bit of interest, nothing too exciting in the moment based on what rates are at on things like long-term savings accounts and money market accounts and so forth. But the purpose here is really more about the liquidity and the accessibility of this fund. So that’s Step No. 2 here, Knocking Out the Baby Steps, high interest rate credit card debt and the emergency fund.

No. 3, Having a Student Loan Repayment Plan. Now, notice I did not say being debt-free. Right? For some of you, perhaps that is the case. Maybe there’s an aggressive debt repayment. But for others of you, it may be loan forgiveness. And that might be 10-year Public Service Loan Forgiveness. That might be a longer time period of non-Public Service Loan Forgiveness or 20-25 years. This might be a federal plan that’s going to take a little bit longer or, again, could be an aggressive payoff. So it’s about having a plan. You know, so many folks that I talk to — and I felt this very much in my own journey, sometimes it’s about the intentionality of knowing that you’ve evaluated the options that are available to you — here, we’re talking about student loans — that you’ve weighed those options, you’ve considered those in the context of the rest of your financial plan and your goals, and you’ve made a decision and determined a path forward and have a plan for how and when this debt is going to get paid off, whether that debt getting paid off is 10 years from now, whether it’s two years from now, or whether it’s even longer or shorter than either of those. So this group listening knows very well, whether it’s those that are in the weeds of those or just been aware of the conversation around student loan debt and pharmacy education, but we’re facing a significant challenge right now. Today’s graduate is the median indebtedness of a pharmacy graduate right now is $175,000. Ten years ago, that was $100,000. We’ve seen a $75,000 increase in the median indebtedness of a pharmacy graduate over a 10-year period. That is what it is. Right? And if you actually look at that stacked up against what a pharmacist is making as reported by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, you know, pharmacists’ income generally speaking have been relatively flat, right? We’ve seen some rise that you could argue accounts for some cost-of-living adjustments. But really, outside of that, we’re not seeing a significant bump up that would account for anywhere near what we’re seeing in terms of the rise of student loan debt.

And so we’ve got some work to do to put this plan together. And Step No. 1 is we’ve got to inventory our loans. We have to know exactly where we are at today. And I suspect many of you have already done this. This is knowing a list of my federal loans, a list of my private loans if applicable, who’s the loan servicing company, what’s the type of loan, what’s the interest rate on that loan? We’ve got to know everything about these loans so we can then determine what might make the most sense from a repayment option and strategy. And the reason why the inventory is so important is that often the loan type is going to direct, especially as we talk about federal options, is going to direct which repayment options may be available to you. And so sometimes — great example would be Public Service Loan Forgiveness — sometimes there’s some work that we have to do to consolidate those loans to then open up repayment options that allow us to pursue certain paths such as Public Service Loan Forgiveness.

So there are three main buckets — when we talk about student loan repayment, there are three main buckets that we want to be thinking about. And I encourage you to think about them in this order. No. 1 is tuition reimbursement repayment. No. 2 is forgiveness. And No. 3 is just paying them off. And that could be paying them off either staying in the federal system or paying them off by moving those loans with a private company through the process known as refinancing. So when we think about these three options, if I had to go from those that would have the least number of listeners probably pursuing it, it would be probably tuition reimbursement payment, a little bit more would be forgiveness, and probably more would be that third bucket where you’re going to pay them off either through a refinance or through staying in the federal system. That first bucket, tuition reimbursement repayment, is referring to those pharmacists who enter employment situations where typically in exchange for some type of service — so think like military pharmacist types of positions, Indian Health Service and so forth, some VA locations through the Education Debt Reduction program — typically in exchange for some type of service, you’re going to have a portion or maybe in some cases all of your student loan balance that might be forgiven. And more often, we think here of federal programs. There are some situations where there are state-based programs. So for example, here in Ohio, there was a program for a period of time for pharmacists that were working in qualified healthcare clinics that were serving patients that were adversely impacted by the opioid epidemic, so think of pharmacists that might work in like federally qualified health centers, could be charitable pharmacy organizations and so forth. More often than not, though, we’re thinking here about federal programs. But it is worth looking into anything that might apply on the state level. So that’s the first bucket. The second bucket is forgiveness. Now within forgiveness on the federal level, there’s two options: one that is better known, Public Service Loan Forgiveness. We’ve talked about extensively on this show. It’s gotten a lot of national attention, some good, some bad, more bad. But I think that probably hasn’t been necessarily fair to that plan. And then the second option, which is not as well-known, is what we call non-Public Service Loan Forgiveness. And there’s some key differences, three things that I really think about differentiating PSLF and non-PSLF. No. 1 would be who you work for. So with Public Service Loan Forgiveness, you have to work for a qualified employer. Typically this is going to be a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization for most pharmacists. Some also would be a federal agency or organization. So think of pharmacists that are working in a hospital or health system setting, perhaps an academic environment and so forth. So that’s the first main difference between the two is who you work for. So PSLF, you have to work for a qualifying employer. Non-PSLF, it doesn’t matter who you work for. Second thing would be the time period. So with PSLF, it’s 120 payments, does not have to be consecutive, but 120 qualifying payments until you can apply for and receive tax-free forgiveness. So minimum of a 10-year period. With non-PSLF, you’re looking at a 20-25 year timeline. Third main difference is related to the taxes and the forgiveness. So with PSLF, if we cross our t’s and dot our i’s, that’s tax-free forgiveness. And with non-PSLF, it is taxable forgiveness. So let’s say 20 years from now, you go to — you’re at the point of forgiveness for the non-PSLF option with an income-driven repayment plan. Let’s say you make $100,000 in that year and you’ve got $100,000 that’s to be forgiven. And that year, your income would be taxed — or you’d have a taxable amount that would be $200,000, not $100,000 because that $100,000 that’s to be forgiven would be treated as taxable income. So this is referred to in the student loan groups as the tax bomb, right? So something we’ve got to be thinking about, we’ve got to plan for if we’re going to be pursuing this option. To many pharmacists that don’t qualify for PSLF and especially those that have a higher debt load, this is something that may be a viable option. And then the third bucket, as I mentioned, is we’re just going to pay them off. So we’re not going to have someone else reimburse/repay, we’re not going to have forgiveness, we’re just going to pay them off, either in the federal system or moving with a private lender through refinance. Now lots of logistics to think about here if you do refinance, different terms, different rate considerations, companies have differences between them. We’ve got lots of resources available on this at YourFinancialPharmacist.com on refinancing, fixed v. variable rates and so forth. And then not all the benefits and considerations are the same in the federal system as they are in the private. So things like income-driven repayment plan, forbearances, forgiveness upon death or disability, these are things that you want to be thinking about if you’re going to move your loans from the federal into the private system.

So I’m just scratching the surface here as we work through this checklist of a strong financial foundation and we talk about having a student loan repayment plan here in No. 3. I would point you to a great resource that was written by Tim Church, “The Ultimate Guide for Pharmacy Student Loan Repayment,” where it’s a blog post, really more of a mini e-book. He did an awesome job of going through a comprehensive, in-depth look at student loan repayment. And you can access that for free at YourFinancialPharmacist.com/ultimate.

OK, so that’s No. 3, Having a Student Loan Repayment. No. 4 is we have to Prepare for the Catastrophic, perhaps the least exciting part of the plan to be thinking about. So here, we’re talking about insurance, right? And while there’s many types of insurance that we want to be thinking about, of course health, auto, home, renter’s, etc., the ones I’m mainly spending time here on in No. 4 is professional liability, term life, and long-term disability. Now we’ve talked about these on the show before, Episode 155 we talked about the importance of professional liability insurance, what it is, why it’s important, who needs it, what to look for when shopping for a policy. So I’d check that out. We also have a great resource on term life and long-term disability. If you go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com main page and click on “Insurance,” you’ll see that information there. And my encouragement for you in this section as we talk about insurance briefly is please take the time to really understand these policies, as non-exciting as it may be, these are incredibly important. And I think this is an area where it’s easy to either be under- or over-insured. And both of those are things that we want to try to avoid. Right? Of course, under-insured, if we have a need for something like term life insurance or long-term disability and we don’t have that policy, that could perhaps be catastrophic to the financial plan, especially as we’re doing the hard work in the other areas that we’ve already talked about. But the other side of the equation also has a cost associated with it, right? If we have a policy which perhaps is more than we need or is not a best fit for our current needs in our financial plan, then that means those are dollars that are going towards a certain part of the financial plan that perhaps we could allocate elsewhere, whether that be investing or debt repayment or another part of the financial plan. So both are important. And this is an area I talk with pharmacists commonly about. And this is an area where I think that someone like a fee-only financial planner can really help provide objective advice and really be able to point someone in the right direction where they don’t necessarily have a vested interest in terms of how those policies are being sold. So make sure to check out some of the resources here on professional liability, Episode 155, and then term life/long-term disability by going to YourFinancialPharmacist.com, clicking on “Insurance.”

No. 5 here is Developing a Plan for Long-Term Investing. And we have talked extensively on the show about investing, from some of the basics, you know, in terms of what are the different accounts, whether that’s a 401k, a 403b, a Roth IRA, a traditional IRA, HSAs and so forth, and you can find all of that on previous shows. We’ve got more information on the website. We’ve also talked about things like the priority of investing. So you know, if we know we need to save each and every month, well, how do we begin to think about the priority? Right? We’ve got considerations around employer-sponsored retirement accounts, individual accounts, perhaps some other investment opportunities like real estate. And so how do we begin to think about the priority of investing? Very important topic. We’ve also talked about things like fees and how do we keep fees low? And if at the end of the day we’re going to be doing the hard work to save, how do we make sure we’re doing that in a way that is tax-efficient and we’re doing that in a way that is minimizing the fees that might eat away at that investment. So I would encourage you to think about at least the beginnings — remember, we’re talking about the foundation here — the beginnings of your long-term investing plan in three stages. And that is setting the vision, Part 1, then determining what the need is or how much to achieve that vision, that’s Part 2, and then we get into the x’s and o’s in Part 3 of actually determining how much are we going to save every month and where are we going to allocate those funds? And within those funds, how are we going to determine what we’re investing in, which aligns with our goals, which aligns with our risk tolerance and all of the other things that I’ve previously mentioned.

And so this is an area that I think for folks that are really at the beginning of their financial journey or even folks that maybe are listening and you’ve amassed a half a million a million dollars of wealth just through consistent, regular contributions into tax-advantaged retirement accounts but necessarily haven’t dug into the details or thought about how to take that to the next level, right? Both of those could apply. And so my encouragement for both groups and folks that are in between there is to really take a step back and ask yourself, what is the vision for my long-term investing plan? I mentioned at the beginning, money is simply a tool. What’s my vision for retirement? What does that look like? What do I want to do? What do I want to accomplish? Because that’s going to then inform how much do I need? Once I know what the vision, once I know what I want to accomplish, I can then start to determine OK, how much am I going to need to be able to make that a reality? Now, for those of you that have done this step, how much you need, you might have run some numbers in a nest egg calculator, it’s a topic that I often talk about when we’re speaking and sometimes I’ll even have folks that will go through that in real time. And inevitably, anytime we go through a nest egg calculation, you can see kind of that glossed-over look when you punch in the numbers and you hit “Calculate,” and you see that number that’s $3, $4, $5, $6 million. And it becomes number one, very overwhelming and number two, it feels very abstract in the moment. Whether retirement is 20 years away, 10 years away or 40 years away, that can be a big number that it’s hard to say, what does that actually means today? What do I do with that number, right? And so I think a good financial plan will really take that information and distill it down to OK, let’s discount that information back to today’s numbers, what does that mean for how much we need to be saving each and every month, and then let’s begin to put a plan in place and automate that plan so we’re contributing in a tax-efficient manner, we’re keeping the fees low, and we’re allowing compound interest to do its magic and time value of money to take its course. Right? And so we’ve got to bring it into terms that allow us to digest this and make it real or otherwise we’re going to get some of that paralysis analysis, five years goes by, 10 years go by, and we feel like we’re trying to play catch-up on our investing plan.

So as we walk through these five steps, we talked about developing and automating a monthly system, No. 1. We talked about knocking out the baby steps, No. 2. We talked about having a student loan repayment plan, No. 3. Preparing for the catastrophic, No. 4. And then No. 5, developing or perhaps accelerating your long-term investing plan. And for those that are listening, I want you to imagine for a moment, I want you to imagine for a moment that you’ve got a sound monthly system in place that accounts for all of your goals. You’ve thought through the things that are most important to you. You’ve looked at your current expenses. You’ve built in those goals into a monthly system, and you’ve automated the savings to begin to realize those goals. Imagine that just for a moment. I want you to imagine for those that are struggling with ‘I need to really flesh out and build out the emergency fund,’ or ‘I need to knock out that credit card debt,’ what would it feel like if you no longer had any credit card debt? What would it feel like if you had a fully-funded emergency fund? What’s next after that? For those that are thinking about their student loans, right, it’s hard to often look at other things when you’ve got a huge balance of student loans. As I highlighted earlier, yeah, you know, getting that to $0 is a goal, of course. But what would it feel like if you had a plan, knowing that you’ve evaluated all of the options, all of the federal options, forgiveness, non-forgiveness, private, etc., you’ve looked at the numbers, you’ve thought about the other considerations, you’ve determined a path forward that is best for you personal situation, and you’ve determined a plan that now allows you to look at your monthly expenses knowing that you’ve put a plan in place that that repayment option is best for your personal situation and you know exactly what that’s going to cost each and every month to achieve that goal and when you’re going to have that debt paid off? What would it feel like for those that are thinking, you know, ‘Am I underinsured when it comes to things like long-term disability or term life?’ or perhaps folks that are feeling like, ‘You know what, I bought a policy awhile ago that maybe wasn’t a good fit.’ What would it feel like if that got shored up? If we really looked at making sure we’ve got the right amount of insurance, not too much and not too little. And what would it feel like if we had a sound vision for the future of our financial plan in terms of what retirement may look like? And how much we would need to accomplish that goal and what it would take on a month-by-month basis — and of all of the financial lingo of 401k’s and IRAs and HSAs and brokerage accounts and all of these other options that we had a plan and path forward, knowing that we’re saving x per month with this goal, and we’re going to do it in this account with this strategy?

So I think as we think about those, even as I’m reflecting on those in my own personal journey, you know, there’s always work to be done. Right? Whether, as I mentioned at the beginning, whether you’re listening and have a net worth of $1 million or net worth of -$500,000, there’s always work to be done. And while there’s always work to be done, wow, what a different position and mindset to be in when we can operate from a place knowing that we’ve got a strong foundation upon which we can build the rest of our financial plan. And so I’d be remiss here if I didn’t highlight that what we do at YFP Planning, one-on-one comprehensive financial planning, this is it, right? We’re looking at every situation on an individual basis to determine what does this foundation look like for you or for a pharmacist who’s really trying to focus on accelerating the second half of their career, is approaching retirement and wants to really think about more of the distribution phase and what’s involved in that from a tax standpoint. One-on-one financial planning allows us to really dig deep and really evaluate your situation on an individual basis. And so I would encourage folks if that’s something that you’ve been thinking about, you can schedule a free discovery call to determine whether or not what we offer is a good fit for you. You can do that at YFPPlanning.com, you can schedule a discovery call and learn more about what that looks like.

As always, I appreciate you joining for this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. And I think we have an exciting second half of the year ahead. If you’ve liked what you heard on this episode or previous episodes, please do us a favor and leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts each and every week. That’s how more pharmacy professionals can help them to find this show and ultimately help us on our mission of helping as many pharmacists as possible achieve financial freedom. Have a great rest of your day.

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YFP 211: The Ins and Outs of the 529 College Savings Plan

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The Ins and Outs of the 529 College Savings Plan

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, YFP Co-founder and Director of Financial Planning Tim Baker takes a deep dive into the 529 plan. He discusses a framework for how to project and save for kids college along with the construct of 529 plans including what they are, tax advantages, what are qualified and non-qualified expenses, and considerations when investing money within a 529.

Summary

Pharmacists are well aware of how expensive college costs and that paying for it is no easy feat. The average student loan debt load pharmacists graduated within 2020 was $175,000 and the cost of college will likely continue to rise. The 529 college savings plan is a tax-advantaged account that is an option families are using to help get in front of the cost of college.

Tim shares that he and his wife are saving an education nest egg for their two children, however, they are not going to forgo saving for their own retirement or other priority financial goals. When it comes to advising YFP Planning clients, Tim mentions that it really is a personal preference; some clients want to completely fund their children’s education expenses, some want to support in a small way, and others aren’t interested in putting money away to pay for it. Tim shares a framework that folks can follow if they are interested in helping their kids pay for college but aren’t sure where to pull the money from. The framework follows a three-bucket rule where the first third of the money for college comes from your current salary (which is really your future salary at the time your child is in college). The second third is made up of money that you’ve saved in the past such as from a 529 plan, brokerage account, savings account, Roth IRA, etc. The final third is money from scholarships, grants, and loans that your child will/can receive.

Tim also talks about the ins and outs of the 529 plan and answers some questions asked in the YFP Facebook Group.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker, deep dive on 529s. Are you ready?

Tim Baker: Let’s do it. Yeah, excited.

Tim Ulbrich: So this is a follow-up from Episode 195, so we talked about saving for kids’ college in that episode. And we’re going to link to that in the show notes. But we wanted to dig deeper on 529 given that a number of our clients and the YFP community members are at various stages of kids’ college planning, some perhaps on the front end, just getting started, others on the back end, you know, distributing those funds or maybe even some further along that are helping with the grandkids or other family members’ college savings. So we want to dig deeper into the 529. We also had a recent blog post by Dr. Jeff Keimer on seven things to consider before starting a 529 plan on the YFP blog. Make sure to check that out. We’ll also link to that in the show notes. And here, we’re going to dig into some common questions that come forward as it relates to college savings. Now, we don’t need to tell this group about why college savings is necessary. I think many pharmacists are well-versed in student loan debt, unfortunately. Average graduate in 2020 faced about $175,000. This is a $1.7 trillion problem that we have as a country. And so obviously the goal with 529 savings is to try to get out in front of that. Tim, tell us from your perspective, obviously a parent of young children yourself, what is your personal thinking, your framework for saving for kids’ college. And not only how you think through this for your own children but also ultimately guide some of our clients at YFP Planning.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so it definitely is a — it definitely is a personal preference, Tim. So like I can kind of share with you my own and then kind of what I hear from clients. So you know, when I grew up in the great state of New Jersey, the Garden State, way back in the day, my mom was a teacher, my dad worked for a chemical company, Rohm and Haas in Center City, Philadelphia. And basically, the message to us was, ‘You’re on your own, kids. Like figure it out.’ And that kind of — I think it was partly to light a healthy fire under our rear end to make sure that we were good in school and we got scholarships and we just put ourselves in the best position to pay for school. They ultimately I think did help my siblings. So I think a lot of it really stems back to like how you were kind of raised in terms of your own parents and how they brought you up. So some people, they — it’s par for the course, they do the exact same thing that their parents did. And some people are the exact opposite. Or if you overlay kind of the horrid state of higher education and what it costs and what it’s doing to a lot of pharmacists coming out of school, that also plays a part. So I’ve heard everywhere from, ‘My kids are on their own,’ to, ‘I don’t want my kids to ever have to go through what I’m doing.’ So I would like a 100% solution for undergrad and also postgraduate school. Because a lot — you know, unfortunately, a lot of the pharmacists that we work with, I hear this — I don’t know if you hear this, Tim, when you’re speaking to prospective clients of YFP is — ‘Yeah, I didn’t really have many loans coming out of undergrad but then when I hit pharmacy school, now I have $150,000, $175,000, $200,00.’ So a lot of people are like, ‘Yeah, I would just like to get through my kids’ undergrad, but that doesn’t necessarily solve the problem. So me personally, Shea and I when we look at our kids, Olivia and Liam, Olivia who’s 6 and Liam who’s about to turn 2, it is definitely an exercise too that we want to help them as much as we can. And we want to be able to have a good education nest egg, so to speak, there for when they do go to school if they decide to go to school. But we are not on the one side of the spectrum where we’re going to forgo things that we want to do today, our own retirement, etc., just to hit that goal. So it’s a personal preference, though. I’ve actually heard of clients say like, ‘We’re just going to have the one kid because of the education and we want to basically put them in the best situation as possible.’ That’s a preference. What I’ve found in most cases is that clients have a semblance of kind of like what they want to do, but they have really no idea of how to actually go about like setting up an account or funding it or all of kind of the ins and outs of that. And that’s obviously some of the things we’re going to talk about today.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and one of the things that I like — and again, we’re talking just basics here in a general framework. And a shoutout here to Kelly Redy-Heffner, one of our lead planners at YFP. You know, she mentioned a framework, a third, a third, a third, which to your comment, you know, there is no one right answer when it comes to kids’ college savings. So keep in mind as we talk about these buckets, but I think this is a good just general framework that folks can wrap their arms around and begin to think about alright, I like that, I don’t like that, or how do I modify that for my own personal situation. So tell us about what those buckets are, Tim, when we say a third, a third, a third for college savings.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so you know, one of the components of education planning is the funding aspect. We’ll talk about the vehicle with the 529 here more so. But the funding aspect is super important. So what the 1/3 Rule states is essentially that — and these are, this is typically like what we put in front of clients if they don’t really know what they want to do. But then once we have this as kind of our rule of thumb, then this is how we basically design the plan around it and actually show them the numbers of what they need to do. So the ⅓ Rule states that when you look at the tuition and fees and all the expenses related to going to college, we want to basically divide up where that money is coming through by really into three buckets. So the first bucket or one-third of the money is going to come from current salary. So what that — so we say current, but we actually mean future salary. So example: When Olivia, my daughter, is 18, so 12 years from now, whatever money I’m making and Shea is making, one-third of that we would cash flow to wherever she’s going in terms of tuition. So that’s the first bucket. The second bucket is basically what we’re going to be talking about today is what’s saved, you know, in the past. So this is like the 529 account, this is maybe a brokerage account, a Roth IRA, a savings account, a piggy bank, maybe an investment property that you invested in, so all the different kind of creative ways that we’ve basically saved and invested money over the course of the child’s life. So that’s the second bucket. And then the third and final bucket would be the scholarships, the grants, the financial aid or even the loans that that is student receiving as they’re going to college. So one-third for kind of cash flow in the moment, one-third from what we save and invest in over the course of the child’s life, and one-third from grants, scholarships and aid and debt — aid and loans to kind of basically put that picture together.

Tim Ulbrich: So let’s jump into the 529 plan, Tim, a little bit further.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: And give us the high-level, 101 definition of a 529 plan.

Tim Baker: So the way that I look at a 529 plan, a 529 plan is basically, it’s like a 401k or an IRA for your education. So the idea here is that you set money aside into an account that you typically fund with after-tax dollars — now, some states allow deductions and even credits to fund a state plan. So you fund it with after-tax dollars. Those dollars grow tax-free. And then when you distribute them for the purposes of higher education or even K-12 now, they come out basically tax-free. So one of the big things that we often throw around is like, what’s this whole thing of growing tax-free? So some people are like, ‘Well, why wouldn’t I just invest this or save?’ So to kind of just illustrate this point, if you are in a tax-advantaged account like a 529, when you invest — say you buy inside of that account a XYZ mutual fund. So you buy that at $100, Tim. And over the next — so you buy that right in the year of your kiddo’s birth. So that particular mutual fund over time, over those 18 years, is going to go from $100 to $200 to $500, whatever the share price is. And then say in 18 years, you sell it for $500. If it is outside of an account like an IRA, like a 529, and it’s in a brokerage account, a taxable account, you have to pay tax on those capital gains. So in this case, $400 per share times the amount of shares that you have. So the tax bill on that can be pretty prohibitive in terms of like what is actually left for you outside of paying Uncle Sam. So obviously if it’s held for a long period of time, you have long-term capital gains, which for most pharmacists is going to be about 15%. So inside of a 529, you don’t have capital gains. You basically — that’s the tax advantage, that it can grow from $100 to $200 to $500 — and that $400 gain, as long as it’s inside of that account, you don’t pay tax on. That’s the beauty of the 529. Now, the problem is a lot of people are like, ‘OK, what’s the catch?” Right? So for retirement plans, you can’t take it out unless you’re a certain age and all of these other things. And for education, there are some drawbacks. One is if you distribute it that are not for education costs, there’s a 10% penalty. You know, you do have to pay the taxes on it, etc. But if you do use them for qualified expenses, then that tax advantage holds true.

Tim Ulbrich: Good breakdown. I think sometimes we just throw around terms like tax-advantaged and so forth. So that’s really helpful. And I’m going to jump into some common questions I think that come up that folks may have about 529 accounts. And some of these are going to be coming from YFP community members who have posted questions in the YFP Facebook group. And I think these questions all fit into one of two areas. When I think of 529, there’s really two phases for saving for kids’ college. And this feels very similar to how we think about saving for retirement. And that’s the accumulation phase where we’re trying to fund the future need. Here, we’re talking about the cost of college. And then there’s the withdrawal phase, and then we get into different concepts and perhaps questions around there as well. And you already outlined some of the tax advantages, and I think that’s probably one of the most common questions, and you mentioned how the taxes can work in terms of that tax-free growth. And then as long as we’re using them for qualified expenses, we can pull them out without penalty. And then you also mentioned that many states offer some type of state income tax deduction or credit. And I just wanted to give folks one example of that. Here in Ohio, in the great state of Ohio, Ohioans can deduct their Ohio 529 contributions from their Ohio taxable income up to $4,000 per year per beneficiary. So you know, when you’re talking about that from a state savings, is that huge sums of money? Not necessarily, but you know, every little bit helps in terms of what you might be able to save on some of your state taxable income. So Tim, let’s talk about qualified and unqualified expenses. So we want to make sure, of course, that if we’re saving this money — you mentioned what’s the catch? — if we’re saving this money and it’s growing and we’re ultimately going to put it to its best use and not have to pay penalty, we want to make sure that we’re thinking about what is qualified and what is not qualified. So walk us through some of the common qualified expenses and some of the common nonqualifying expenses.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so you know, typically the things that you think of that are qualifying are kind of the common things. So that’s going to be like tuition, room and board, fees associated with tuition, that type of thing. And it could be food, it could be textbooks, transportation, those are — actually transportation is not. Sorry, transportation is not typically part of that. But these are books and supplies. It could be expenses for special needs. A lot of the computer and technology and internet, those are all under that. And that has kind of changed over time. So a lot of it is — and I suspect, so like one of the things that people kind of get tripped up on, Tim, is like, ‘Well, you know, I would like to do this, but I feel like it’s too restrictive..’ And even in our lifetime, you know, in really the next last 10 years, they’ve become more — or they meaning the government — has become more and more less and less restrictive in terms of what these dollars are for. So like as an example, you used to not be able to use it for trade school and things like that. Now you can. You used to not be able to — which is crazy, and they even still cap it, which I’m not sure why they do this — but you used to not be able to pay — if you had money in a 529, you couldn’t use it to pay your loans without — that was an unqualified expense, which is crazy. Now you can. I think the cap is $10,000.

Tim Ulbrich: $10,000. Yep.

Tim Baker: So the use is broad, and I expect it to be more broad in the future. The other big thing that has changed with the 529 that has really allowed to open up other doors is you can now use it for K-12 expenses. So Tim, if you ever were to decide to send the boys to private school, you can actually use that. In a lot of cases, it’s less of an accumulation, it’s more of a pass-through because obviously your boys would be going through school now. But if you were to — if you wanted to set up a 529 for grandkids for K-12 or even their college, it would be more of an accumulation. So in terms of qualified expenses, it’s fairly broad, and I think it’s going to continue to broaden as we go, even as more nontraditional ways of education sprout up. I think that the 529 will be — I anticipate that they’re going to continue to try to find ways to mitigate this issue with just rising expense and debt levels, etc.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I agree with you. I think if anyone’s been following along in the national conversation around student loan debt, I think it feels like we’re in a direction towards, ‘What can we do to try to minimize that?’ And I think one way might be to loosen up even further, although to your point, it’s come a long way in terms of 529 qualifying expenses. Tim, what are some other downsides — if any — to the 529 that folks might want to consider beyond potential penalties for nonqualifying expenses. We’ll talk in a moment about, ‘Hey, what if my child doesn’t end up going to school?’ and using this. Any other downsides that come to mind that folks would want to at least consider and evaluate as they’re making this decision?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so some of the downsides would be, you know, not being able to use the dollars for like what we would consider unqualified expenses, which might be like college application and testing fees, which we know can be fairly high. It could be you can’t use them for transportation, health insurance, extracurricular activities, and some room and board costs, which again can add up. So that’s one of the things that’s a downside. I think the other thing would be the fact that, you know, because you have to use it for higher education and if your kid doesn’t go to college, like what do you do with the money? So I think that you don’t lose the money. I think some people think like, if I put that in and they don’t go to college, I can never get it back. At a minimum, you would take a haircut, a 10% penalty and pay the taxes on those gains, and that wouldn’t necessarily be ideal. But you could think really beyond traditional college. So again, I think as the government continues to look at this, whether it’s helping another college with K-12 or re-assigning the 529 or basically changing the beneficiary from one kid to another, you can do that. You can transfer it to another account. It could be going back to college yourself. Like if you decide — if a kid decides that they don’t want to do this, you can use it for that. Or at a minimum, you can withdraw it. So I think if there is an iota — and again, not advice — but if there is an iota that your kid is going to do something post-high school, I would plan for it. And a lot of the — I think it also depends on the state because of the state deductions will incentivize that. But even like the tax benefit of growing it tax-free, if you’re looking at 18 years, if you’re looking at 10 years, that’s a real period of time where you can get a lot of gain out of an investment account and to be able to direct. And it could be a legacy, Tim. It could be a legacy thing, Tim. Like Liam, like if Olivia doesn’t want to go to school or say she gets accepted to West Point and we don’t need it because there is no tuition, it’s just time service, we would basically shuttle that off to Liam. Liam would get the account. But then if he decided he wanted to start a business or things like that, I think what I were to do in that moment — unless I really needed to use the cash — I would look at my nieces, my nephews, I would potentially look at it as a legacy thing to send my grandkids to college.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, let it ride.

Tim Baker: Yeah, let it ride. Just let it do its thing. And you know, allow that to be a legacy thing for me that I know we have clients that — the lucky few that get through pharmacy school that’s like, ‘Oh, my grandma and my grandpa sent us.’ Like I would love to be able to give that gift. I’m not thinking about that, that’s chess right now. I’m really trying to think about our kids. But if that situation would arise, I would take that one-third pool of money that we’re working towards and either repurpose it for the other child or look at the next generation.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, you know, I often say when I’m speaking with a group about kind of Investing 101, that when it’s something like a 401k or an IRA, Step No. 1 is you actually put the dollars in. Step No. 2 is then you actually figure out what you’re going to do once those dollars are in the account. Same thing here, right? We’re talking about money that hopefully is going to grow over time, which means we’ve got to have some thought and intention to how we’re investing that money. So clearly, this is not meant to be investing advice inside of a 529, but just talk to us about how you think through that or how you work through that process with clients of, you know, it’s great we’re saving. But now we’ve got options. And how do we evaluate that and is that just a very similar process to what we’d be thinking about as we would in a 401k or in IRA or even in a brokerage account?

Tim Baker: So yeah, so this is another big piece of like now that we have — like we’ve identified what we want to save and in this case, we’re talking about the 529 so that’s kind of the organization of the account. The second piece is kind of the contribution/funding of it. But really, the last piece is kind of the allocation. And this is kind of how we break down recommendations for clients. And again, it’s going to dependent on their situation, their goals, the state they live in, their tax situation, etc. The allocation piece is just like retirement plans, 401k’s, the by-and-large most popular thing that we see is the target date fund. The target date fund says, ‘OK, if my kid is going to go to school in 2030,’ it basically has an allocation that changes over the year. So it goes from more equity-focused the further out and then basically changes and alters itself as it gets closer to that 2030 timeline and becomes more bond-focused. So the target date fund for 529s, you know, that’s basically how it works. Personally, I don’t like target date funds, not because they don’t work. They do. But more so because they’re more expensive. So you know, for our kids, we just use like a total market. So the Maryland 529 — we’re moving everything over to Ohio now — you know, there’s a total market fund that we use that we want to be super aggressive and then as Olivia gets closer to her, I’ll just do that manually. Now I do that because that’s what I do for a living. Some people, if it’s kind of out-of-sight, out-of-mind, they’re not working with an advisor, they maybe should look at a target fund. But just know that dollars are going to be a little bit higher in terms of expense ratio and things like that because they’re doing that work for you. So I think the other thing too from — the reason I don’t like target date funds in particular with regard to retirement is that a lot of people, the retirement date is a little bit more — it’s more of a moving target whereas not so much with college. Most of the time, a child graduates high school and they’re going to be off to college the next year. But that could be another reason that you don’t necessarily look at the target date fund. But yeah, when you look at most 529s — and again, the 529s are not created equal. There are some that are really good, meaning they offer good — or they offer an array of investments that are out there that are cheap. Some, there’s a lot of fees and higher expense ratios that are not necessarily great for the investor. So a lot of that is dependent on the type of plan that you’re in and where you’re at.

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, that sounds like an episode we just did recently on not all investments are created equal in terms of fees.

Tim Baker: That’s right.

Tim Ulbrich: So same thing here.

Tim Baker: That’s right. Yep.

Tim Ulbrich: Tim, one of the questions we had from the Facebook group, Ernesto asked, “Can you start these for nieces and nephews?” as one example. I guess others may think of the same thing for grandkids. We talked about the transfer of them, so you used the example if Olivia or Liam doesn’t use it that you might be able to transfer it to your nieces or perhaps in the future grandkids. What about actually starting or opening an account for a niece, nephew, grandchild, etc.?

Tim Baker: Yeah, you can absolutely do that. And I think maybe a downside is how it affects financial aid. So you know, the — it does affect financial aid when it’s owned by a parent. But the benefits that you receive, it’s going to be very slight how it affects financial aid. For a child, you definitely don’t want to have it in — the ownership in the child’s name. But for someone like an uncle or a grandparent, I don’t even think it’s on the radar. So yeah, you can absolutely do that, get your tax deduction too as you go, which is nice. In terms of like changing ownership, you know, you can do — I think you can do a rollover, so I can move money from Olivia to Liam. I think you can do that partially. You can do a partial rollover, or you can just do a straight beneficiary change where you’re saying that this account is no longer for Olivia, and now it’s for Liam. So I think there’s a wide variety of how you can kind of manipulate that, which gives you kind of maximum flexibility to kind of get the most out of the plan.

Tim Ulbrich: Another question we had was from Casey, which is one that I have heard before. So I know this comes up often. And in addition to giving a shout-out to Kelly Redy-Heffner, which was pretty awesome, Casey asked, “Main question is 529 v. IRA. Should I instead put the money in an IRA so I can have more options to invest, also more flexibility if continuing education is not desired and take out only the amount that would not give a tax penalty, i.e. after five years? Are there percentages to manage the accounts or are 529s and IRAs usually similar?” So this question I think often comes up of like, why not just use something like a Roth IRA when you think about kids’ college?

Tim Baker: Yeah, I mean, again, just like IRAs are not created equal, obviously I know that the IRAs that this client has are very efficient, you know, because we want to make sure that we’re not paying any fees that we don’t need to. I still — I think because of the — from a tax perspective, they’re still going to be very similar in terms of growth. But I think especially because if you’re in a state that gets a benefit, I think it’s worth it. So you know, what most people forget is like with a Roth IRA, if you contribute to a Roth IRA, any dollars that you put into a Roth IRA, you can get out of the Roth IRA penalty-free and really tax-free. So like your basis really for any purpose — so if I wanted to buy a sports car, I can move money out of my Roth IRA without penalty or tax as long as that is — it’s not the earning. It’s just that. And the savings really too for the education accounts, like you know, if it’s used for — when it gets penalized is the earnings. So they don’t want you to have any kind of that unfair advantage. So I still like for if there’s an option for if the education stuff is on the table, I still like that — even given this idea that I think it’s going to be broader in terms of what it can be used for — I still like the 529, even though typically they can be a little bit more expensive. But the thing that most people don’t know is that you can basically open a 529 in any state. So if you look at the state of California, which unfortunately does not offer any type of deduction or credit for California taxes, you know, you can go out and look at what are the best 529s that are out there? Two of the ones that are typically popular are Nevada, which is run by Vanguard and we know why, Vanguard is very efficient and affordable, and then typically the Utah 529, which is also another good one. So you can go and open those. I still think that the benefits you receive inside of the 529, even with a little bit more expense compared to the IRAs, is worth it.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, the other thing I think about, Tim, here too in addition to the state income tax benefits, if that is applicable, is I do think there’s something powerful just about the behavioral separation.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Like, you know, you and I have talked about this because I asked you this question several years ago as we were just thinking about this with the boys. And I think it’s true. Like you know, maybe the math doesn’t necessarily change, but there’s the kids’ college bucket and then there’s the retirement bucket. We’re thinking about long-term savings. And I think there is something valuable for having that focus where you’re budgeting and thinking about one and you’re budgeting and thinking about the other. Not to say you couldn’t get to that same outcome if it was all in one bucket, but I think that value of separating them sometimes and having fresh attention on each of those and their individual goals can be really important.

Tim Baker: Yeah, what I think too is like, you know, people that can contribute to an IRA or a Roth IRA, they have to have earned income. So if we are trying to open one for your son Sam, even though I think they’re going to building this multimillion-dollar company with the Ulbrich Brothers LLC, he has to have earned income to be able to fund that IRA and use it in the future for education or you carve those dollars out of your own contribution that you and Jess are putting into the IRAs and then it’s kind of like bucket confusion, which again, I’m a big believer in clearly delineating what is this account for, what is that account for, because it can get lost in the shuffle. ‘What are we doing? What are we not doing?’ type of thing, so I think the benefits are similar, but I think yeah, when you go down to the behavioral and drawing clear lines of OK, what is this money for? and not get it kind of confused with your retirement assets, then I think that’s a plus as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Last question I have for you here I think is a good one because it probably will come up in this situation but perhaps also others that might be thinking about K-12 education. So question here from Katie in the YFP Facebook group is, “Cash-flowing husband’s grad school. Is it worth it to put it into a 529 prior to tuition being due? Then pay it via the 529.” So she says, “In Illinois, there’s a significant state tax deduction. We would not be using it for the investment options since we’re only saving one semester ahead.”

Tim Baker: Yeah, so yes. So in this case, you would think of the account less as an accumulation and more as a pass-through. So you know, you would basically seed the account with what you would need for that semester of tuition and then basically get the deduction for Illinois and then kind of rinse and repeat until you’ve really maxed it out for the year. So if you lived in California, as we previously stated, that doesn’t have a state deduction — I don’t think Kentucky or North Carolina do either — you would — I think Maine is the last state that doesn’t either — there would be no reason for you to do that because if you did, if you were trying to get like gains, then the gains would be so minimal because as soon as it goes in, it goes right out. So it’s kind of like also sometimes when you fund an FSA for dependent care, it’s to get that money into the account so you can get the deduction. Then you’re basically paying your daycare or whatever, it’s kind of the same idea. But it’s a great benefit because it — every little bit helps on the tax side. So you know, and I know Illinois state taxes can be somewhat brutal.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff, Tim. Really appreciate the deeper dive into 529s. As I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, if you haven’t yet done so, check out Episode 195 where we talked a little bit broader about kids’ college savings and we included some of that discussion on other options beyond the 529 as well as the recent posts from the YFP blog, “Seven Things to Consider Before Starting a 529 Plan.” And for those that are in the midst of saving for college in a 529, whether you’re in the beginning of that journey, whether you’re in the withdrawal phase of that journey, or perhaps, again, even saving for other family members, we’d love to talk with you to see how this fits as one part — an important part, but one part of the overall financial plan. And so if you’re interested in that conversation and evaluating the fee-only comprehensive financial planning that we do at YFP, make sure to book a free discovery call at YFPPlanning.com. As always, we appreciate you joining. And hope you have a great rest of your day.

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