Category: Financial Planning / Podcast

On Episode 60 of Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, Tim Ulbrich, Founder of Your Financial Pharmacist, interviews Brianne Porter, a new practitioner and faculty member at The Ohio State University College of Pharmacy, all about her journey of going into more than $220,000 of student loan debt, the plan she has put together to pay off this debt and the lessons she has learned along the way.

About Today’s Guest

Brianne Porter, PharmD, MS is Assistant Professor of Pharmacy Practice at The Ohio State University College of Pharmacy. She is primarily responsible for co-coordinating and teaching in Integrated Pharmacotherapy 1 and 2. Her research interests include community practice advancement and the scholarship of teaching and learning. In addition to her position with the college, she moonlights with a local independent pharmacy to bring those skills and experiences to the classroom. Brianne is actively engaged in APhA, serving as the Chair of the NPN Education Standing Committee, AACP, and OPA. She is passionate about community pharmacy practice and about getting students excited about and prepared for upcoming changes in community pharmacy practice.

Mentioned on the Show

• YFP Student Loan Course
• YFP Facebook Group
• Seven Figure Pharmacist by Tim Ulbrich, PharmD and Tim Church, PharmD

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: So Brianne, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining me.

Brianne Porter: Thanks for having me, Tim.

Tim Ulbrich: So excited for this recording, and I’m pumped up about your journey, and as I mentioned to you before we jumped onto the recording, we’ve done several debt-free episodes, but I think what I’m really excited about is your willingness to share your story as you’re really in the thick, in the weeds of this journey of paying off student loan debt. And you and I had a chance to meet all the way back — I think it was actually at AACP we met for the first time. Is that correct?

Brianne Porter: Yeah. It’s been a couple years.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah. So at the time, you were just starting your fellowship — and we’ll talk a little bit more about your career journey and so forth — but your fellowship at Ohio State along with your Master’s degree. And at the time, I didn’t know anything about your financial journey. So I’ve learned more along the way, I know you’ve attended a couple presentations we’ve done, we’ve talked a little bit about student loan repayment strategies and options, and what I know from your story is that you obviously had a moment of conviction, an “Aha!” moment where you said, ‘There’s got to be a better way to do this.’ And I don’t know where that “Aha!” moment came from, but I’m excited to learn that on the recording and this episode today. So before we jump in to the details of your story, I first want to say thank you for your willingness to come on the show, for your willingness to be vulnerable with our listeners, and I’m confident that your story is going to inspire action from others in the community. So in advance, thank you for that.

Brianne Porter: Sure.

Tim Ulbrich: OK, so let’s jump all the way back — if I have my facts correct — all the way back, you graduated from pharmacy school at The Ohio State University in 2014. And it’s my understanding at that point, you had no student loan debt prior to starting pharmacy school. So you graduated in 2014, but prior to starting pharmacy school, you had no student loan debt. Is that correct?

Brianne Porter: Yeah, that’s correct.

Tim Ulbrich: So how did you manage to get through undergrad debt-free? Tell us a little bit about that story.

Brianne Porter: Yeah, so I was really fortunate. I actually went to undergrad at Ohio University in Athens. And I was really fortunate to get a scholarship that not only paid full tuition for four years, but it also covered my living expenses, I got a stipend in the summer to do some experiences, go travel and do some different things, and so really, when I was an undergraduate, during my undergraduate studies, all I really had to worry about was spending money. I had a job, and I made money, and I had spending money. But really, I didn’t have to think about what college cost or anything like that. I was really living a pretty good life at that point. I was very fortunate.

Tim Ulbrich: So you’re crushing it through undergrad, you’ve got scholarships, you have no student loan debt, so I guess one of the upsides of this story is it could be worse, right, if you had undergraduate student loan debt that was accumulating. So fast forward then, you graduate with your PharmD in 2014, tell us a little bit about your total debt load at the point of graduation. And then take us through your decision, your journey, in the postgraduate training and fellowship and ultimately why you decided to defer your loans through that period.

Brianne Porter: Sure. So I feel like this is the reason I reached out to you, Tim, is because as I’m looking back on this time and thinking about decisions I was making, I’m thinking, oh my gosh, how many people probably are making those same decisions. Like, please, let me help stop you from doing this. But yeah, basically, whenever I started pharmacy school, I’m going to go back even a little further because I think this part’s kind of important for the students listening. But when I started pharmacy school, because I had that experience in undergrad, I don’t think that I was very intentional. And I know we’ve talked about intentionality before, but I was not intentional at all about thinking about how much money I needed. I’d had four years paid for, and I think because I didn’t have any responsibility for my undergraduate education that I wasn’t really thinking about what it actually cost to go to college. And I had the same mindset that everyone has, which is that I’m going to graduate, I’m going to be making $100,000+ a year, I’ll be able to pay those off in no time, it’s no big deal. So every semester, whenever I did my applications for the student loans, I would just get like an offer. Like, ‘You’ve been offered this much. Accept all, or enter a different amount.’ And I think that if one slight change would have just been instead of offering me the max amount, they would have just had a blank and said, ‘How much do you need?’ I probably would have been more intentional, right? But you know, being a student and being fairly irresponsible at the time, I basically just rationalized in my own mind, well, I know what tuition is, and I know that I need to cover living expenses, and this is the first time I’ve lived alone. I live in a city, I’ve always lived in small towns, so instead of really thinking through or trying to estimate those costs, I just thought, you know what, I’m going to need it. Pharmacy school’s going to be stressful enough as it is, I’m just going to take the max amount. I’ll be able to pay it back, no problem. So I went through that, and even through school, I mean, I worked all through school. And I, again, used that money for maybe joining organizations or spending money or whatever else I needed. I mean, I had a car break down at one point. So like, it was kind of like an emergency fund, so to speak, as a student. And I think that even throughout those four years, it never really dawned on me like what this payment would look like whenever it came in, even that $160,000, which is what I graduated with. But even thinking about that total number, it never dawned on me like, how much money is that actually going to be out of my paycheck? And how hard would I work for that paycheck, you know? I felt very comfortable with that, oddly enough. But I had $160,000 of debt, and I was very comfortable with that.

Tim Ulbrich: Mmhmm.

Brianne Porter: But then I decided very last minute, I made a rash decision to apply for residency. And I was very lucky I matched, but at that point, I hadn’t really thought through the financial aspect of that. So when I was finishing pharmacy school, I had already accepted a job with Target, and I was going to be making about $120,000 at the time a year. And so even with that $160,000, I was like, well, I’m going to make $120,000. I’ll pay it off in a few years, no problem. Which is a funny joke now. But then whenever I matched for residency, I thought, oh my gosh, I’m going to be making like a third of what I was going to be making, what I was planning to make, so now I’m going to have more expenses with travel to conferences and different things. What am I going to do? And just a side note — I think it’s kind of funny how as a resident, we think we’re so poor. I think because we compare to what the pharmacists make, but if you think about it, people raise their families on significantly less than what we make as a resident. So I wish that I would have that moment of realization back then to know that, yes, you can very easily live on this much money. And yes, you can very easily make payments on your loans with this much money. But again, I think I was really good at talking myself into deferring or talking myself into I need more money because I just didn’t have that appreciation for my undergrad. So fast forward three years, I completed a PGY1 and then a two-year fellowship and a Master’s. And luckily, the Master’s was included in the fellowship, so I really did only have one degree to pay for, which is kind of sad that I landed at $224,000 with just one degree out of three that I have. But regardless, I finished my postgraduate training in 2017 and then suddenly, I got the final statement of $224,000. And that was a little more sobering, I think. That was a lot of money.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think that speaks to, you know, a few things that really stand out to me that I hope current students pick up on. I think your initial description of the process in which you borrow money — it’s very easy, almost like it begs you to take all that you need, right? And for cost of living and other things. And I think really taking a step back and saying, to your point, if this were a blank slate, and I really did my budget and did the math, what would I actually need and how can I minimize as much as possible what I’m borrowing because at the end of the day, an unsubsidized loan — as obviously you have experienced firsthand — an unsubsidized loan, that interest is accruing all the while that you’re in school. And so the other big takeaway for me is if there’s current residents, new practitioners listening — and I know certainly you’re not alone in this, Brianne — is deferment is real in terms of the impact it can have. And for you, obviously that went from $160,000 to $224,000 because of three years of deferment. And one of the things I always encourage resident or new graduates to think about is that even if you’re unsure about exactly how things are going to shake out, if you opt in to an income-driven repayment plan, because of how they’re calculating your monthly payment looking back at the previous year tax return, you’re going to have a very, very low — likely have a very, very low monthly payment. And so better than deferring, you can go into active repayment, and then obviously, you can start to pay it from there and get ahead of the interest over time. So thank you for sharing that. So you started with $160,000 from your pharmacy degree, you end up with $224,000. And I think my follow-up question to that is, as a new practitioner with life coming at you in many different angles and priorities, things that you want to do and accomplish, how does $224,000 of student loan debt, how does that practically hinder you as a new graduate? What impact has that had on you?

Brianne Porter: Yeah. It has been — I’m not going to lie to you. It’s been pretty awful, actually. And not to say that I don’t have a lot of good things in life, I definitely have much to be grateful for. But I had no idea how much this was going to really impact not just how I felt but other people in my life, how it was going to impact the decisions that I got to make, the things I got to do with my free time. So you know, for example, because of some other poor decisions, I also had some credit card debt, and so my credit score isn’t fantastic. And then I got married, and we wanted to buy a house. And we were able to buy the house. My husband, luckily, he had his undergraduate paid for as well and went straight into a job and was saving for several years. So he was very financially stable, actually, which was very lucky for me. So we were able to get a house, but it’s like, now we have the house, we have things that happen with the house, you have to repair an AC unit or a furnace or whatever the case may be. Or you have to get new windows, and these things come up. And because of my student loan debt and my monthly payment, we’re so strapped that it’s like, we can barely pay the bills that we have. We have a little to go into our emergency fund for those sort of things with the house or other things that might come up. But we do not go on vacations, we do not spend a lot of money on anything expensive. I mean, I can’t tell you the last time I went shopping for fun. I mean, I guess probably if you’re financially responsible, you’re really not just going shopping without a budget anyway, but I just have felt very strapped, quite the opposite of what I thought in pharmacy school and residency, to be honest. And it’s a real bummer.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think what you’re describing is what Jess and I felt, what I hear from so many other graduates is this feeling of, you know, I had one thing in mind of what this income would provide in terms of, you know, the feelings of that income. And then all of a sudden, it’s like, wow, I really feel like I’m living paycheck-to-paycheck despite this income. How is this happening? And obviously, as we’ve talked about many times before on this podcast, big student loan payments, other big purchases, a home, other priorities, quickly will evaporate the income that you have in any given month. So what I really want to find out from you is I know in our conversations before — which by the way, I’m very much looking forward to becoming a coworker of yours soon at The Ohio State University — so I’m pumped up to be working with you, but I know as we’ve talked before in different venues and settings is that I can tell you have an energy and a passion and a motivation to get after this whole topic of personal finance. And obviously, through you journey, I think it’s fair to say that you kind of wandered into this and really maybe didn’t always have that passion, energy or motivation. So what was the “Aha!” moment for you where you said, “There has got to be a different way of doing it.” Was it seeing that balance of $224,000? Or was it a combination of factors and things that came together?

Brianne Porter: Yeah, that’s a great question. So there’s a lot of things to address in your question here. I think the big “Aha!” moment, honestly, was not the balance. It still hadn’t hit me because really, if you’ve never had much money in life, that balance still doesn’t really mean anything to you. $224,000 I’m like, OK, well that’s six digits. What does that really mean? OK, I’ll tell you what it means. It means when you make a little over $100,000 a year, and you get your paycheck and taxes and everything else come out, your health insurance, all the things that you don’t account for when you think about that $100,000 income. My student loan payment was one-third of my take-home pay, which is significant, I think.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes. For sure.

Brianne Porter: And what my lender did, which was kind of sneaky, is they kind of started throwing the loans back one at a time. So my first payment was like a couple hundred dollars and then a little more and then a little more. But then my final payment came in, like the final amount that it was going to add up to, the first time was $2,300. Now, that’s a lot of money. You know? So it really hurt to pay that out on the beginning of the month and be like, wow, I just lost $2,300 this month.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s when it gets real, right? When you see that number, and you’re like, OK, here’s my paycheck after taxes, here’s what’s going toward student loans, here’s the house payment. And like you said earlier, what’s left after that? I mean, I think that’s the moment where it goes from almost feeling like Monopoly money to, ‘Holy crap, this is real. And I’ve got to do something about this.’ So one of the things I know is that you’ve been a really active member of the Facebook group, the YFP Facebook group — which for those that are not on there listening, please jump over and join the conversation. There’s so much support and encouragement and helping one another, it’s been really fantastic to be a part of. But it makes me want to ask the question, like for you, what role has community played in terms of people being around you and helping you on this journey? Whether it’s your spouse, peers, coworkers, family or friends. Talk a little bit about community aspect and accountability for you on this journey.

Brianne Porter: Yeah, I think that’s a good question. To be honest with you, when this all first started to unravel or kind of maybe unfold is a better word — when it started to unfold in front of me and I really realized the impact of the decisions that I had made, I was really embarrassed because it’s like, here I am, a pharmacist, I’ve got a Master’s degree, I mean, on paper, I look like I should be very intelligent, right? So how did I make these decisions? And how did I justify them in my head? So I think that I was really embarrassed that I wasn’t more intentional up front and that I really didn’t take that responsibility to just learn more about finances. I mean, totally honest here, I still don’t know a lot about financial things, which is why I purchased your book because I wanted to learn more about that. And so that’s really what kind of, you know, drew me in, but I was really embarrassed by that. Like I didn’t talk about it to anyone, and I didn’t talk about my debt, I didn’t talk about the choices that I had made. And I certainly didn’t want to ask other people because I didn’t want to then feel obligated to share, so I felt like I was really — especially when I started getting that payment every month, that bill and making that payment, I was really feeling very isolated and kind of trapped and just feeling almost like I couldn’t breathe. You know, I really felt like I was struggling to figure out how to manage with it and how to make decisions and what to do with it. And I think that the community that really helps me the most really is the Facebook group, the Your Financial Pharmacist Facebook group, which is why I’m so active on it. And I think that the thing that is so nice is to just get on there and see that I wasn’t the only person who made these decisions, and I’m not the only person who doesn’t know what certain things are when it comes to financial things, I guess, you know, financial terms. I don’t have any background in business. I never had to take any classes like that in any of my training, and I never opted to, so I really don’t know anything about it. And that group just made me feel like I wasn’t alone. And then I think it gave me the confidence to start talking about things a little bit more openly, so that was really powerful for me, actually, that group.

Tim Ulbrich: And so I want to follow up with that and talk a little bit about how you got to the decision of what your game plan is with your student loans. You know, we’ve talked a lot about on this podcast when we’ve done speaking events, there’s so much to be said for getting it right when it comes to having the optimal loan repayment strategy. And knowing you work for technically a PSLF-qualified employer, I know you and I have talked a little bit about refinance, you have all your federal options. So just walk us through briefly, what was your process or strategy to come up with your game plan when it came with why, for you, this was the option that you were going to go forward with in terms of paying back your student loans.

Brianne Porter: I appreciate you asking that question because it was actually, as I’m sure you know from some of our conversations, a journey that I really struggled with a lot, even once I started to get educated and really understand what the different options meant because that’s the first thing, right? When you’re a student and you’re doing the exit loan counseling, for any students listening, that is not good enough on its own. You have to learn more about what’s going on because I went through that counseling, and I still really didn’t understand what all of my loans were and what the payback plan for those were and what compounded interest is. Like I really didn’t understand any of that stuff. But once I became educated, again, through the Your Financial Pharmacist community and the book “The Seven Figure Pharmacist” and really understanding what those options were, sitting them down side-by-side, I still really struggled. And I’ll tell you why. So I owe $224,000, and as you mentioned, I work for an institution that would qualify for Public Service Loan Forgiveness. So yeah, sure, it probably makes a lot of sense to the average person to just say, well, you’re going to pay a lot less if you do Public Service Loan Forgiveness, so why wouldn’t you do an income-based repayment plan and go for that? But I am very risk-averse, actually, so to me this idea that that could go away at any time and I would have all of these small payments that I made that are really compounding interest as I went was very unnerving. Like it was keeping me up at night thinking about, can I really do this? Could I make this leap? So for the first year out of training, my first year as faculty at Ohio State, I actually opted into the 10-year standard repayment. And I did not refinance, which was another mistake that I’ve made. I’ve made every mistake you can possibly make. Yeah, I did not refinance. And for that first year, I was making those $2,300 a month payment. And the reason that I did that was the uncertainty of PSLF but then also, I’m the kind of person that I just like to attack something and get rid of it as soon as I can. And so I really just wanted to be done with this. I wanted to try to get this done in 10 years or less and know that I paid it all, I don’t owe anyone anything, and I’ve moved on. But kind of what we were talking about earlier, how that really impacted me, we were — my husband and I just felt very, we felt very trapped. We felt like we couldn’t do anything that was fun, we created a budget, and we were living by the budget. And that was really great, we paid off credit card debt, we paid off all kinds of other debt outside of this, actually. But we still felt like, wow, this is really strapping and is really suffocating in a lot of ways. And it just feels like we’re not really going anywhere, right? Because especially at the beginning, you’re kind of not really going anywhere. So at that point I realized I needed to either refinance or just go bite the bullet and go with PSLF and hopefully everything works out and the program continues or I’m grandfathered in or whatever the case may be if things were to change. And when we looked at refinancing, we found that even with the lowest possible rate that we could get, down around 4%, with my husband co-signing and everything, it was still only a matter of $300 or $400 difference a month. And so for us, that didn’t feel like enough to justify to continue on that repayment plan. So ultimately, I decided to opt into the income-based repayment plan. I get my first bill tomorrow, and I’m really excited to see that it’s over $1,500 difference. So you know, we want to look into investing and building our emergency fund more and things like that as well, but we are excited to have a little extra in there to be able to do something fun, you know, when we get the time or when the opportunity arises, very first world problems I’m talking about here.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, but I think your story is such an important one that matches up with so much of what we preach here on this podcast and even in the YFP student loan course is that there is no one right solution that we can blanket cover everyone and say, ‘This is the best option,’ right? You said something like, you know, these could keep me up at night. And for somebody else, that may be a very different scenario. Or maybe the math looks better on a refinance. And maybe somebody isn’t as interested in investing or maybe they’re not as conservative. So all the factors come together, and I’m so glad to hear you’ve thoughtfully walked through those and obviously worked with your significant other to do those, to say, OK, collectively for us, this is the plan going forward. And that may be very different for somebody else, and certainly that’s OK. And I want to go there then, since you mentioned even before and also through that last segment there, you know, your significant other obviously has become a very important part. You guys are in this together, you’re doing it together. He came in with no debt, right? You mentioned that earlier.

Brianne Porter: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: So I think I would love to hear from you, just what you’ve learned through that experience where maybe for others that are listening, one person’s coming in with a ton of debt or all the debt, somebody else has no debt. And just some of the feelings that you’ve had around that and how collectively, you’ve come together to work it out and say, OK, yep, we came in at different starting points, but we are a team, and we’re trying to do this together. So talk us through that.

Brianne Porter: So we — obviously, he came in, like you said, with no debt. And I came in with a lot of debt, so that was our first point of kind of not really being on the same page. But then we were also raised very differently financially. And so we approached finances in general very differently. So I think I talked a little bit earlier about how I was embarrassed about my debt and how I got there. And so to be honest with you, I was not up-front with him at first. It took me years of dating to really come clean about what I owed in student loan debt. And because we weren’t married, because we weren’t paying on it, I wasn’t paying on it at the time, he really, he didn’t know. And poor guy, I waited until we were engaged to drop that bomb on him. So he was in a situation, you know, he’s like, wow, what am I going to do now?

Tim Ulbrich: He’s not out now, right?

Brianne Porter: Yeah, but he’s a good sport. So he has — you know, and I said we’re very different in how we approach finances. I’m much more the — nowadays, at least — I’m much more the let’s count every penny, let’s keep track of every penny, let’s budget every penny. You know, I want to know where all my money is going now. And I’m very intentional. I learned my lesson, but I’m very intentional now. Maybe I was too intentional. But he is a lot more laid back and he is of the mindset that it all works out. So he’s on the opposite end of the spectrum. But because of that, he was very relaxed when I shared with him my student loan debt. And he said, you know, we learn lessons. That’s what life is about. But what are we going to do moving forward? And I think that was the biggest thing is just coming clean about it and then really sitting down and coming up with a plan versus his motto, he’s very laissez faire about things, and he’s very comfortable being like, we’ll fix it out. But at that point, we both agreed, we need a plan. This is very significant. We need to plan moving forward.

Tim Ulbrich: Well and just kudos to him to embrace that and say, “Hey, this is what it is. And it’s now our problem collectively, and we’ve got to figure this out together to have a plan.” And I think that’s great advice for those that are listening that may be struggling through or maybe even people that are in that dating phase. And you know, I think my advice would be the earlier, the better. You know you can get some of these topics on the table. And I know for Jess and I, personal finance wasn’t something we talked about before we got married. And all of a sudden, you’re thrown into it, and you’re dealing with it. Now you’re coming up with the questions of should we merge our accounts and how do we budget together? What goals are we trying to achieve? You know, all of these factors come together and so obviously, the earlier the conversations, the better. So two questions I have left for you are a little bit lighter questions, but I think part of your journey here is to share with others to hopefully help them along their journey as well. So pharmacist peers that are listening or students that are still in school, what are a couple pieces of advice you would have for them in terms of, you know, how they can prevent maybe some of the mistakes that you made along the way.

Brianne Porter: For pharmacists, I guess I would say those of you who are in my shoes right now, you’re now practicing, you’re making a little bit more than a resident or a student would make, it’s just don’t be afraid to jump in. I know I’ve been at a lot of your presentations and on your webinars, Tim, and you talk about this a lot. Like the first thing is be real and look at your numbers and just get down with that. And so I think that’s, you know — I heard you say that, but I think that when you’re always thinking about what do I have and you haven’t really wrestled with the numbers yet, you haven’t been plain with yourself about what’s actually there, that looming concern about what might be there or what that looks like is sometimes twice as bad as what’s actually there. So I would say just take a look, be really honest (gap), think about what motivates you. I know you’ve also talked about motivation quite a bit. And I think that’s really what it comes down to. Like you said, there’s no right answer for anyone. But if you avoid and you don’t confront this problem, like no matter who you are or what motivates you, that for sure is not going to be a successful thing. I can tell you from experience, it’s not successful. I guess for the residents, I would say dont’ defer. Like you mentioned earlier, Tim, even that income-based — you’re a resident, your income-based payment is going to be next to nothing. There’s literally no reason not to make those payments. So I definitely would not defer during residency. And then for the students, my best piece of advice is if you’re being offered the maximum amount or fill-in-the-blank, just put your hand over the maximum amount and pretend like it’s not being offered to you and actually calculate what you need, even if you’re just making approximations and you want to just slightly overask to meet, that’s fine. But if you just automatically select, you know, taking out the max amount, you’re always going to use that. No matter what, you’re going to put that money to use, and you’re going to owe it at the end. And you, trust me when I say you cannot appreciate how much money that is right now when you’re a student. You just cannot.

Tim Ulbrich: Great wisdom there. I wish I would have heard all three of those things through my phases as a new practitioner, as a resident and as a student. So you alluded to earlier that, you know, I think for you maybe this topic is one that you haven’t necessarily had as much education previously on and maybe one that doesn’t come as naturally. But obviously, you’re committed to learning more about the topic in terms of your own professional development. So what works for you in terms of learning more about this topic? Is it books? Is it podcasts? Is it webinars? What is the strategy that you have to develop yourself in this area?

Brianne Porter: Well, obviously, Your Financial Pharmacist teaches me a lot.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s a good one, yes.

Brianne Porter: But in all seriousness, I do tend to really utilize the resources of the Your Financial Pharmacist community as my primary source. If you think about how you approach Pub Med searching — I’m going to go nerdy here for a second — but I always, you know, when you find a good article, and then you look at the other references that that article has referred to or referenced. I kind of approach this the same way. I have found this resource to be extremely valuable for me. The book has been very eye-opening as far as really putting things into perspective and being at the level for someone who doesn’t have a lot of background knowledge on the topic, that I can actually understand what’s going on. And then a lot of things that I hear on here or read in a book, kind of resourcing out from there. I think podcasts are really helpful for me because I can listen while I drive and then that’s where I do a lot of thinking versus the book where it’s easy to kind of passively read and not take it all in. But I definitely find this community to be extremely valuable and a great resource. And like I said, you can then find other resources from Your Financial Pharmacist. But it’s been my main source.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, thank you for the shout-out. And I think my encouragement to the audience would be, if it is YFP, great. I’m glad to hear that. If it’s not, find whatever resource is going to keep you motivated on this topic and keep you learning. It’s a lifelong journey of learning and making mistakes, and learning and growing and making mistakes, and learning and growing, and you repeat that cycle over and over again. So if it’s YFP, if it’s something else, making a commitment to develop yourself in this area of personal finance. So Brianne, I want to again just thank you for your vulnerability, your willingness to share your story with our listeners. And I know this topic can feel so overwhelming and weighty at times. And I think it’s easy to avoid the pain, as you mentioned, wish it all weren’t there, turn the other way. And what I love about your story is you are choosing differently. You’re choosing to embrace the pain, you’re choosing to dig in, make a commitment to turn the ship around and invest in yourself in the future. So what an incredible, and I’m hopeful we can have you back on the show to share your debt-free journey and to talk about what life is going to look like once you have all of those loans paid off. So thank you again for coming on the show.

Brianne Porter: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me, Tim.

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On Episode 58 of the Your Financial Pharmacist Podcast, YFP Founder Tim Ulbrich interviews pharmacy thought leader Deeb Eid, host of the Pharmacy Universe Podcast, about how rising student debt loads and a tightening job market are impacting the return on investment of the pharmacy degree.

Deeb Eid, PharmD started his pharmacy journey as a pharmacy technician learning the building blocks of what both efficient and non-efficient workflow operations could look like. He gained a deep appreciation for the role and potential of the pharmacy technician and continued forward with Bachelors and Doctor of Pharmacy degrees from The University of Toledo College of Pharmacy & Pharmaceutical Sciences in Ohio. His talents took him to Washington D.C. to become the inaugural Executive Resident in Association Management & Leadership at the Pharmacy Technician Certification Board. While traveling the country, he was able to present, meet with, and discuss the challenging and evolving atmosphere within pharmacy with a variety of stakeholders. He now serves as an Assistant Professor and Experiential Coordinator at Ferris State College of Pharmacy in Grand Rapids, MI working to mentor and inspire students while creating new avenues and opportunities. Deeb is the Founder and Content Strategist of Pharmacy Universe which is a social platform whose vision is to socially educate and engage the world about #Pharmacy.

Mentioned on the Show

• Script Financial
• Pharmacy Universe Podcast
• American Association of Colleges of Pharmacy (AACP)
• American Pharmacists Association (APhA)
• Pharmacy Universe Episode 004: Finance and Education (Your Financial Pharmacist, Dr. Tim Ulbrich)
• Pharmacy Technician Certification Board (PTCB)
• YFP Episode 004: The Landscapes of Student Loans In Pharmacy Education with Dr. Joey Mattingly
• AACP Graduating Student Survey
• AACP Enrollment
• AACP Degrees Conferred
• Pharmacy Manpower Index (Pharmacist Demand Indicator)
• Bureau of Labor Statistics (Pharmacist)
• YFP Episode 053: One Pharmacist’s Journey From Financial Ignorance to Financial Independence with Tony Guerra, PharmD
• Munger MA, Gordon E, Hartman J, et al. Community pharmacists’ occupational satisfaction and stress: A profession in jeopardy? J Am Pharm Assoc. 2013; 53(3): 282-96.2013
• Ohio Pharmacists Association (OPA)
• Art of Manliness Podcast
• How I Built This Podcast
• Impact Theory with Tom Bilyeu
• The Third Door: The Wild Quest to Uncover How the World’s Most Successful People Launched Their Careers by Alex Banayan

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Deeb, welcome to the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. Appreciate you joining us.

Deeb Eid: Yeah, thanks, Tim. I really appreciate you having me on.

Tim Ulbrich: So you’re in Boston for the American Association of Colleges of Pharmacy meeting, AACP. So how’s Boston and how’s that meeting going?

Deeb Eid: Well, Boston’s a really cool place for anybody who hasn’t been there. I highly recommend coming and visiting. Lots of things to do, lots of things to see. And the meeting’s going awesome so far. I think there’s a lot to learn. It’s a little bit different for me, I’m used to the APhA crowd. But definitely meeting some new people, gaining some insight about what’s going on in pharmacy education, and also reconnecting with a couple old friends.

Tim Ulbrich: I’m so bummed I couldn’t go. I’ve been to that meeting several times. Great networking, great programming. I do have to say, as a Buffalo Bills fan, I’m a Patriots hater, so I’m not sad about that point about not being in Boston. I’m sure there’s lots of Patriots, Red Sox fans around. And what I want to do on this episode is, to be honest, I think we have a long overdue discussion about what’s the Return on Investment of the pharmacy degree? And last week on your show, the Pharmacy Universe podcast, which we’ll link to in the show notes, Episode 004, you and I had a discussion related to personal finance and the future, we talked about debt loads and what this means for new practitioners, but we did get off on a little bit of a tangent , which was good, about some of the evolutions of the profession and where we’re heading. And disclaimer for listeners before we jump into the weeds on the discussion is that while we’re going to make a case that the Return on Investment of the degree is down in terms of where it has been, we are certainly not dismissing the fact that pharmacists make a good income, make a good living. And the reality is as individuals, a pharmacist’s income is still well above the median household income in the U.S. So it’s all relative, but we are certainly talking here about the shifts and the changing market that we’re seeing over the last 7-10 years or so. So three parts of this show that we’re going to walk through. Part One, we’re going to talk about the impact of high debt loads and a tightening job market. Part Two, Deeb and I are going to talk about how doom and gloom really is the situation? Are we overplaying it? And in Part Three, we’re going to talk about the action because I think we have a lot of people getting fired up, a lot of people complaining, but what are we actually going to do about this going forward? So Deeb, before we jump into the national trends and start this discussion on the Return on Investment of the pharmacy degree, as a new practitioner yourself, tell us a little bit about your career story, your journey and maybe even how student loan debt has played its part in your own journey.

Deeb Eid: Yeah, Tim. So a little bit about my background and my story is I went to the University of Toledo in Ohio. Go Rockets!

Tim Ulbrich: Go Rockets, yeah.

Deeb Eid: And during my time there, I started out working in a pharmacy as a pharmacy technician pretty early on, basically right out of high school, started out that summer and started to really gain an appreciation for what happens in workflow of a community pharmacy. And it’s kind of like almost like an art, you know? You go and you work at different stores and you see things run smoothly, and then you go to a different store and you see things on a particular day, maybe run not so smoothly. And so through that process, I started gaining appreciation for the role of the pharmacy technician. Obviously went on, completed my PharmD and had a really interesting and awesome opportunity to complete an executive residency out in Washington, D.C. with the Pharmacy Technician Certification Board. And so through that experience, I was able to basically travel across the country, meet different people, see what’s going on within the profession and kind of like what you’re saying, meet new practitioners, meet people who have been in the profession for 20-40 years and hear their stories and hear what their thoughts are. And I think personal finance is actually a topic that comes up really no matter what just because of, yeah, what’s happening with student loan debt and asking people, oh, I can’t believe — and they’ll tell you, I can’t believe how much people are paying for school nowadays compared to back when I went to pharmacy school. And so my story relating to student loan debt is — and I’m not here to turn any of your listeners off — but to be honest with you, I was extremely fortunate, and I actually had my schooling — my father really actually helped pay for most of my schooling.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome.

Deeb Eid: So I never really thought about student loan debt throughout my schooling. It wasn’t something that was a stressor to me. But what I did learn through the process is now reflecting back, how was that possible? How was my father able to in his personal life be able to support me in that way? And the other thing I think I learned was that everyone around me, this was one of the focuses of themselves, and so I needed to learn about it because, you know, people talk about it, so I want to be included in the conversation. But more recently, my significant other Kristen is also dealing with a situation now after she just graduated of looking at student loan debt. And so it’s a topic that even though I don’t have personal experience paying off student loan debts or worrying about it, it’s still something that I feel is extremely important because a bunch of people around me have it, and I want to be able to and need to be able to explain and help them and students, now that I’m an educator.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think one of the things, just building off of what you said there, is you know, while obviously you had a very fortunate situation, if we look at the data nationally, 90% of all graduates have some student loan debt with the average amount being just now over $160,000, although we’re waiting for the new data here in 2018. And what I’ve heard, and I’m guessing you’ve heard from colleagues and peers and even those you’ve essentially interacted with your podcast at Pharmacy Universe, is that this is such a big stressor and weight on their back that one of my concerns here as we talk about the ROI of the pharmacy degree is we are in desperate need of innovation in pharmacy practice. And sometimes with innovation comes risk-taking, comes entrepreneurship and trying to build some new things. And one of my concerns, and one of the things we’re trying to tackle at Your Financial Pharmacist, is that you have this massive gorilla on your back that is maybe making you risk-averse, is stressing you out, obviously, that has an impact I think profession-wide in terms of what we can do in regards to being innovative. And so I would point listeners all the way back to Episode 004 where we interviewed Dr. Joey Mattingly from the University of Maryland, another thought leader, in my opinion, and we talked about very analytically what has been the impact of student loan debt in terms of new practitioners. And we got very granular and got very specific with numbers in terms of how it’s impacting graduates and how that’s changed. So let me paint a quick picture, and I’m going to dig into the weeds here a little bit on some numbers, so for those listeners, don’t tune me out here because I think the data does not lie. And we have to understand that the situation we are in right now is not a normal situation relative to, say, five or 10 years ago in terms of where we are as a profession. So I’m going to give some data here about debt loads, salary data, and then also we’ll talk a little bit about what’s happening to the job market. So first on debt loads, very simply, 2010, the median debt load was $100,000. 2017, it was about $160,000. So we had almost a 60% increase in seven years. And so I often hear people say, well, nationally, debt loads have gone up x%. True, but if you look at pharmacy education among some other health professions, that has outpaced the national average in a very significant way. Well, the other part to look at is if debt loads have gone up, have salaries increased proportionally? Because if they have, then we can make an argument that man, this really stinks that debt loads have gone up, but salaries are taking care of it. And the answer to that is they are not. So if we look at median salary for a pharmacist in 2010, it’s about $111,000. In 2017, it’s about $124,000. So I’m always looking at what’s the debt-to-income ratio of a pharmacist? And in 2010, that debt-to-income ratio was .9. In 2017, it was 1.28. So what’s interesting is if you look at pharmacists’ salaries alone, they are not keeping up with inflation over that time period. So even if we were to remove student loan debt and interest rates and the reality that some people are not in part-time work positions, those incomes are not keeping up with inflation alone. Of course, when you add in all these other factors, that situation becomes worse. So now we ask the question, Well, if we have people that are graduating with more student loan debt, salaries are not increasing proportionally, well, how much is their likelihood to get a job? What’s the job market look like? And there, we look to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And what we see that as of 2016, there was just over 312,000 jobs in the pharmacy profession. And now, here is the statistic that is alarming to me, that the Bureau of Labor Statistics is projecting that over a 10-year period, 2016-2026, they’re projecting 17,400 jobs that would be increased during that 10-year period. But in 2017 alone, we had approximately 15,000 pharmacy graduates. So let me say that again. Over a 10-year period, they’re projecting just over 17,000 new jobs. But in one year alone, 2017, we had approximately 15,000 new pharmacists enter the market. So something has to give. Now, some people look at that and say, well yeah, of course people are going to retire, other things are going to change, but obviously that’s not going to make up for that difference. So there, we need to begin the conversation about what is the challenges, what are the challenges with the situation and what can we start to do about it? So in summary, we have higher debt loads, we have fewer availability of jobs, we have more graduates that are coming into the market. So Deeb, my question to you is from your perspective, as somebody who I look to as an innovator and a thought leader, what are the risks and challenges that you see with graduates that are coming out with rising debt loads and relatively speaking, a stagnant job market? What are your thoughts?

Deeb Eid: So I think first of all, some of the numbers that you provided there, again, are pretty interesting. When I take a look at the statistics and I see, like you said, the Bureau of Labor Statistics projecting that many jobs over 10 years. And you and I very well know that there’s a lot of people who are graduating from pharmacy school each year. I think some of the risks and challenges with graduates coming out having these rising debt loads is — you’re right. That’s the tough part is when you come out of school and you have this thousand-pound gorilla of student debt on your back, and you’re trying to figure out where to start off in life, right? So you have a lot of different things going on. You might be moving for a job or a position or a residency. This could be your first car buying opportunity, this could be your first home buying opportunity. There’s a lot of things that happen in those first couple years as a student who graduates, becomes a pharmacist and now looks at your paycheck and thinks, oh man, I have all this money now. And so that’s where I think it’s challenging because people are going to be stuck, to an extent, where you might get a job, you might not be happy with the job that you have or you might not be satisfied. But you know that you need that job in order to be able to pay for that car, pay for that home, pay for those student loans. And so that’s I think part of the challenge is yes, there’s going to be people retiring, so there’s going to be jobs opening up, but what I really think is interesting — and maybe we can talk about this is the opportunities that could come from people focusing their time on different areas and trying to think outside the box of what they can do to, you know, again, build a brand, build a market and figure out ways that pharmacy can be involved in healthcare in ways that are nontraditional from what we’re currently doing.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. It makes me think back to Episode 053, we interviewed Tony Guerra from the Pharmacy Leaders podcast who his Episode 001, Pharmacist’s Journey from Financial Ignorance to Financial Independence, one of his suggestions that stuck with me and will stick me I think forever is this idea of as a new graduate, he took what he calls Entrepreneurial 8. So right off the bat, he took 32 hours a week — he actually tried to work 24, but they wouldn’t let him — 32 hours a week, and he said, you know, 8 hours a week, I’m going to begin to think about some of the things that I’m passionate about, pharmacy practice and how I can be entrepreneurial. Now, from the financial perspective, that to me is a brilliant idea and I think it’s great for the profession as well. Obviously, we’ll be advancing thoughts and ideas, but also, it requires somebody to be able to right off the bat say, OK, I’m not going to live up to my full income. And obviously, it starts to give you options and flexibility in the event that things change along the way. Now, student loans, if you’ve got $200,000 of student loan debt, is it going to be easy to say, ‘I’m going to take 32 hours instead of 40.’ And is that the best decision in the moment? You know, maybe yes, maybe no, depending on your personal situation. And I think that’s one of the biggest fears, if you will, that I have right now is that there’s this mentality that I’m feeling and that I felt as a new graduate of maybe you’re in your mid-20s, maybe you’re even a little bit older as a student, you’ve got over a six-figure job that’s right there, sign the paper. It’s comfortable right off the bat. Does it restrict you, though? And is it restricting what we’re able to do and evolve as a profession? And I think the reality of that business model is it’s gotten us stuck into a place of where we’re at right now. And there’s not necessarily as much room and opportunity for innovation, growth and risk-taking. And Deeb, I don’t know what you’re seeing — I know one of the things I’m hearing among our graduate is there’s this feeling, obviously in some sectors of work moreso than others, but there seems to be this feeling of I’m only a couple years out, what I had imagined this could be, it isn’t what I thought it could be. Now I’m looking up and I’ve got 35, 40 years left of work history, and I feel stuck. I mean, is that something that you’re hearing? What do you perceive to be the implications of that in terms of somebody so early in their career feeling like they’re stuck?

Deeb Eid: So I’ll tell you from a personal standpoint, I worked during my school, so while I was in pharmacy school, so I worked for about six years, so throughout the entire six years at Toledo, I was working. And I worked in a couple different — I worked in a couple different pharmacies. And to be honest with you, that statement that you made, that feeling of not really ‘I feel stuck,’ but it’s more of, ‘This isn’t really what I think I expected,’ or, ‘This isn’t really aligned with what I thought I would be doing,’ that was honestly one of the feelings that I had throughout those towards the end of those six years was I know what I’m learning in school, I understand what could be, but then there’s things that happen at work or there’s responsibilities that I’m doing at work that just doesn’t feel like I’m living up to the potential or you know, I could be doing so much more for my patients. I just am not able to or my company maybe doesn’t allow me to or the laws or regulations don’t allow me to do these things. And so that’s what I think for me, from a personal aspect, that’s where I felt I needed to do something a little bit different. Hence, why I went out and did my residency in an area that was a little nontraditional. But yeah, I mean, I talk to some of my former classmates and a couple other people out there who are newer into the profession, and it is something to think about. I’ve heard a few times here and there that, well, you know, you kind of get into this — it’s almost like a rhythm. You learned all these different things, there’s all this potential, and then it’s like your dreams and hopes are shot down.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Deeb Eid: It’s kind of an interesting phenomena.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, and I think we know — for me, I’m very passionate about career development. It’s what I do a lot here at the university. And the reason is exactly what you’re saying. I mean, what we know and what I’ve seen in our alumni and seen in my own life is that if you’re challenged in the work environment, if you’re given autonomy, if you’re allowed to be creative in the way you think, if you’re allowed to be entrepreneurial even within an organization, that feeling of satisfaction that comes from that trickles over to many other areas of life, right? You walk home more confidently, and it can have an impact on relationships and other areas. And so one of the things that I’m passionate about, specifically for the financial piece, is trying to help people manage this financial component so that they can maybe look at an alternative job path. Maybe they can go back for additional training, back for additional schooling. Maybe they can start their own business and take a few more risks. And one other thing that really stuck out to me as I was preparing for this show — and you’re probably familiar with the 2013 study that was published in the Journal of American Pharmacists Association, JAPhA, that we’ll link to in the show notes. It was a study done by Munger, et al, which has had a lot of attention and debate. And essentially, they studied, take-home point is they studied over 300 community independent pharmacists, and their conclusion was that there was high amounts of dissatisfaction. Specifically, more than 50% of those surveyed stating that they were considering quitting their job. And I think that’s such an important point. And whether we want to debate is that representative, is that not, we know that and we have a pulse on that there is that feeling out there. And if we, as a profession, are going to move forward and be innovative and be forward-thinking and rock the boat and think about the way pharmacy’s been done, and think in the futuristic type of way and not look back at how it’s always been done, we’ve got to address this feeling that’s out there, and we cannot ignore that it’s out there. And I think one of the risks, to wrap up this first part here, one of the risks that I see — and the numbers support this — is we have a very significant decline in applicants into PharmD programs across the country. And that should be getting all of us fired up. So let me give you some data here. 2010-2011, we had approximately 107,000 applications into pharmacy school. 2016-2017, that number went down to 73,000 in that time period. All the while, the number of schools increased in a dramatic way. So in theory, we should have more applications. So we have more graduates coming out with less applications coming in. So that’s the transition then into the second part, and really what I want to discuss here for a few minutes is how doom and gloom is this situation? You know, we could stop here and say, the sky is falling. Are we over playing it? Is that reality? And to me, Deeb, it feels like that we’re at risk, as a profession, of being stagnant in the way that we do business when the market is clearly telling us the status quo is not OK. And when I say the market is telling us, I’m referring to the number of applications into pharmacy school, that’s an indicator of interest in the profession as well as what we’re seeing in the evolution of the profession. Most notably, we’ve talked recently on your podcast about the Amazon buyout of PillPack. You know, it feels to me that we’re at risk of becoming the Blockbuster in the Netflix world, right? So my question to you is how doom and gloom is the situation? Is it worth sounding the alarms? Are we too late? Or is this a trend that we can really start to reverse? What are your thoughts?
Deeb Eid: So a couple things come to mind when I think about the situation. No. 1 being what I try to do when I, from a big picture standpoint, when I look at the situation, I try to actually look outside of the profession of pharmacy. So what’s going on? What are the trends within consumer buying? What are people looking for? What is the average person on a day-to-day basis, what are they expecting out of the businesses, out of the services that they are getting from other places? So if you look at businesses like Netflix, like Amazon, like Uber, some of these ones that really, really, have come out of nowhere in the past few years but have really just become leaders across the board. So some of the things that I think about is you know, if you take a look at those organizations, what are three things that they focus on that we, as a profession of pharmacy, can learn from? And I think three things that I see is when it comes to the person on the other side of their services, No. 1 is that they help save people time. OK? So time is something that I believe any person out there would put a major premium on. If you can save somebody time in their life, that means that that’s time that they have to reinvest in something that they enjoy doing. So I think that’s a huge thing that a lot of these companies have in common. No. 2 is convenience. They’re making it more convenient for the person on the other side, right? So you want something from the store? You don’t need to go to the store. You can order it on Amazon, and it’s there the same day or the next day. You want to watch a new series? Turn on Netflix. There you go, you can watch the entire series. You don’t even have to move from the couch anymore.

Tim Ulbrich: Right. And now it’s predicting what you want to watch, right? It’s amazing.

Deeb Eid: Exactly, it’s telling you different things based on your shows. You know, you want to get somewhere quickly and again, know where you’re going and be convenient and safe, take Uber. And I know people will say, oh, there’s some stories with Uber that people have gotten hurt, but far and in between. But again, it’s that convenience. And then the third thing — so you know, you have time, you have convenience. And the third thing that I believe these places are doing is they are just, they’re listening to the consumer. They’re listening to their customers as to what they are looking for. And that’s why they keep improving their models. And so I think from a pharmacy standpoint, you know, for doom and gloom. Is the situation getting worse? Is it getting better? I think that in pharmacy, like you said, people are coming out, they have a lot of student loan debt, that’s limiting innovation, that’s limiting opportunities for people to be innovative. Sometimes, they’re getting into positions where they’re not going to be able to come in right off the bat and you know, kind of think outside the box unless they really spend time and effort outside of their jobs doing it. You have less people applying to pharmacy schools, you have a decent amount of graduates. And so I don’t want to say that we’re doomed as a profession, but I think that what we need to do is we need to start looking at the models that we’re utilizing and figure out where can we start to focus on those types of areas because the future consumer and the current consumer are somewhat different, right?

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Deeb Eid: So I think a lot of the people in today’s world in the future are going to expect that you can pick up your phone, hit a button, and boom, there’s a pharmacist on the screen. I want to have a conversation with somebody, I have questions about my medication, boom. A future consumer is probably going to expect they’re in their kitchen, and they’re about to have dinner, about to sit down for dinner. They can say, ‘Hey, Alexa, tell me about my medication. Am I able to take it with this type of food that I’m about to be eating? Is there any interaction?’ These are the things that are being built into society that I think the future consumer is going to expect, and that’s where I see the opportunity for, you know, people within pharmacy and graduates to be involved. It’s just not going to be in the traditional what you think of now where you’re going to get a degree, you graduate, you work in a pharmacy. I mean, those things are still going to be available, but I think that’s where the jobs and the opportunities are going to be is we’re going to have to start creating these opportunities so that we can continue to reach our patients in a way that’s convenient, that saves them time and that’s still quality.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, absolutely. And I think there’s so many good nuggets that you had there. I mean, to me, one of the things that I’m often thinking about that you highlighted there is we are at a point, I think, I believe, that we have to think about reinventing ourselves as a profession and the role of the pharmacist. We know the value, we have the data to support it, but we need to blow up preconceived notions about exactly how pharmacists have to operate and how pharmacy is done in every single setting that we operate. And I think one of the great advantages of these moments like we’re in as a profession is that with any moment like this comes unbelievable opportunity for innovation, entrepreneurship and growth. And as I used Blockbuster as a reference, Family Video is still around. I’m still trying to figure that out. I don’t understand that. But you know, with those models, there’s an opportunity to either evolve or not evolve. And so I think we can look at it one way and throw up our hands and say, ‘Ugh, this is terrible. We need to hold onto the way that pharmacy’s done, and we’re going to hold that out regardless of the things you mentioned, that time, convenience, understanding what the future consumer wants,’ or we can get together, have the uncomfortable, difficult conversations and say, ‘Let’s throw out the way it’s always been done at least in thought. Let’s brainstorm about alternative ways that it can be done. And let’s think about it from the consumer standpoint and also think about where technology, automation and other things are going.’ And I think you used some great examples there, even with Alexa is one example but just to get us thinking in a different way. So let’s move now to the call to action. What are we going to do about this? And I know we talked briefly about this in that last section, but we’ve painted a picture of the current reality we’re facing as a profession. And now the question is, so what are we going to do? What steps should we be taking? And what practical things can our listeners to begin to reverse this trend? What do you think, Deeb?

Deeb Eid: Yeah, so I think the very first thing that is, you know, low hanging fruit — and I would say this is probably something that anybody who comes across us, anyone who’s listening, no matter your situation, I think that if you can take at least one step in this direction, you’ll be definitely doing yourself a favor. Just learn about personal finance. Take advantage of, you know, things that you guys are doing here at Your Financial Pharmacist. Read a few different articles about it, learn about student loans if that’s something that you’re dealing with. Just learn about finance in general because I can’t tell you how simple it is to — you know, it’s just like learning therapeutics, it’s just like learning pharmacology. And it sounds very, you know, overwhelming, it sounds like, man, like I don’t speak this language, but it’s the same thing, right? You just have to put in time. It takes a little bit of effort, but if you do it step-by-step and utilize I think the community that you guys are building with Your Financial Pharmacist, that’s another awesome thing is you have other people out there who are going through the same things that you are and you can learn from them and you can ask questions and you can interact with them. And so that’s I think step No. 1 is really just taking it on your own onus to learn about personal finance because that, I believe, is going to save you a lot of stress in your future or wherever you’re at in your career. So I think that’s kind of one step that I see. The second step is having those conversations, like you said, those difficult conversations and coming up with these creative ways but really trying to, again, figure out in your current workplace, in your current situation, in your current life, what is something, what is one thing, what is one thing that you could be doing that could be challenging or helping to, again, look outside of pharmacy and figure out what that future person, what that future consumer might be expecting. What is one thing that you might be able to start working on that would be able to help the profession of pharmacy. So you know, that could be starting up a blog about your thoughts and your experiences and you know, how things might be different at your workplace or things that you’ve seen with your patient care or wherever you work. That could be starting up a podcast, you know, just like we’re doing here and just like I’ve done over at Pharmacy Universe and just talking to people and having the conversation, getting the word out there. That could be writing a book. I know that sounds very challenging, but you know, there’s a lot of great books out there that I’ve seen, and I think there’s not enough books out there about these topics that we’re talking about today, about how pharmacy is evolving and kind of what different opportunities that there could be out there. So those are kind of three areas that I could see. I believe personal finance is a big one, thinking about building a personal brand is probably the second one, and then the third one is connecting with the community and just figuring out how to disseminate some of your ideas and thoughts that you have — or at least learning from others that have those ideas.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff. And if I could add a few things to that list that are on top of my mind. You know, one for me is you’ve got to be a part of the conversation. So whether that means being active in your local, state, national organizations, you know, on this podcast, we’ve done a lot of work with the American Pharmacists Association. It could be your state pharmacy association, your local group, because to be a part of the change is different than just complaining about it, right? So pay the membership dues, get involved, be at the table. And second to that comes being a part of the change when it comes to legislation and advocacy. So if you want to see a change, I’ve seen this firsthand with the work with Ohio Pharmacists Association, it’s not as difficult or overwhelming as it may appear from the outside looking in. So engage in those areas. And then Deeb, one of the last things I want to mention here is I’ve been trying to do more self-development outside of the pharmacy space. So I felt like I kind of fell into this rut of, you know, I’m always learning from pharmacy literature, pharmacy conferences, all great, but there’s so much to learn outside of the pharmacy space, even outside of the health profession. So I’ve been listening to some podcasts and reading some books lately, watching some TED Talks. One of the things that’s catching my attention recently is some more U.S. History type of stuff. I was just listening to a podcast on FDR to Harry Truman and that evolution and struggles and challenges, one back to the American Revolution. And I think getting to think in a different way to say, here were leaders and individuals and people and times in our history that had very challenging points where they had to pivot and make a decision, and they had to rally people around them to achieve a shared vision. And so we will link to some of those in the show notes, but just getting out there and saying, I’m going to do one thing, like you mentioned. Maybe it’s getting out there and getting inspired from some TED Talks or books or podcasts or joining an organization and becoming more active. I think there’s lots that we all can do collectively as a group and a community to move forward. So what I want to do is end on a few rapid-fire, Q&A questions for you while I have you here. So I’m going to ask you questions, quick answers, and we’ll move through these one-by-one. So first question is, the trend in pharmacy applications, which is currently down, will continue over the next five years. True or false?

Deeb Eid: I think it’s true.

Tim Ulbrich: One piece of advice you’d have to a prospective pharmacy student in light of today’s conversation?

Deeb Eid: Learn about personal finance as much as you can.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. And finally, what is one piece of advice you would have to current students that are worried about the job market in terms of getting full-time work and the rising debt loads that they see?
Deeb Eid: I would say work on building your personal brand and make sure that you are utilizing your time so that you are one of the top candidates when you graduate and that you have options.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff. Deeb, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. And for our listeners, we’ll link to the show notes, but if you’re not yet familiar with the work he’s doing over at the Pharmacy Universe, check it out. I’ve listened to the episodes you’ve published so far. I love the telehealth components, getting us to think different legislatively, trying to push the envelope, so thank you for the work that you’re doing over there and very much appreciate you taking the time to come on today’s show.

Deeb Eid: I appreciate it, Tim. And can I mention one thing? Because you had mentioned a couple of the different avenues of books and podcasts and that before I go?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, please. Please.

Deeb Eid: So there’s a book that I recently picked up — and if you’re not familiar, check out the YouTube channel, it’s called Impact Theory by Tom Bilyeu. It has some awesome interviews on there that really challenge you to think outside the box. So one of the interviews that I was watching had this particular person on here, and he wrote a book. And I actually just picked up the book here in Boston, but I’m going to recommend it. It’s called “The Third Door,” and it’s by Alex Banayan. And so basically, it’s this guy’s story about — I’ll give you a very quick summary. He says that there’s really three ways, that life is like a nightclub. There’s three ways in. There’s the first door, which is the main entrance, that’s where 99% of the people wait, hoping to get in line. They’re hoping to get into the club. There’s the second door, which is the VIP entrance. That’s where billionaires and celebrities get in. But then the one that no one tells you about, and that’s the third door. It’s where you have to jump out of the line, run down the alley, bang on the door 100 times, crack the window open, sneak through the kitchen. But he says that there’s always another way in and to be always looking for that way in. So I think that that kind of goes along with the theme that we’re talking about today.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, we definitely need a third door right now and people knocking on that door, so thank you for sharing. And I have a problem that when I hear of a book recommendation, literally within five minutes, I have to buy it. So I will be doing that right now and look forward to reading that on a vacation coming up in a couple weeks. So Deeb, again, thank you so much. And to our listeners, as always, thank you so much for joining us. Looking forward to joining you again next week.

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