Financial Planning / Podcast

YFP 190: 7 Ways to Reduce Your Monthly Housing Costs

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7 Ways to Reduce Your Monthly Housing Costs

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Nate Hedrick, the Real Estate RPh, joins Tim Ulbrich to discuss 7 ways to reduce your monthly housing costs.

About Today’s Guest

Nate Hedrick is a 2013 graduate of Ohio Northern University. By day, he is a clinical pharmacist and program advisor for Medical Mutual. By night and weekend, he works with pharmacists to buy, sell, flip, or rent homes as a licensed real estate agent with Berkshire Hathaway in Cleveland, Ohio. He has helped dozens of pharmacists achieve their goal of owning a house and is the founder of www.RealEstateRPH.com, a real estate blog that covers everything from first-time home buying to real estate investing.

Summary

It’s no secret that housing costs, whether that be your mortgage or rent payment, make up a large chunk of many people’s budgets. For some people, housing can be 30% or more of their income. Nate Hedrick, The Real Estate RPh joins Tim Ulbrich on this episode to share 7 ways to reduce your housing costs. Reducing your housing costs allows you to have more disposable income to fund your other financial goals. It’s a win-win, right?

The first is downsizing your home. Many people think downsizing means moving into a tiny home or to an apartment that’s drastically smaller than where they currently live. If that’s what you want to do, that’s great, however downsizing can simply mean moving into a house that’s a bit smaller to help reduce the costs of taxes, insurance, utilities, and maintenance. The second way to reduce your monthly housing costs is to house hack. While house hacking may not be for everyone, this is a great stepping stone into real estate investing and can allow you to, hopefully, live for free. The third strategy is to get a roommate. Like househacking, this may not be an option for everyone, but having a sibling, friend, or even stranger live with you can allow you to significantly reduce your housing costs.

The fourth is geo-arbitrage, a concept that’s been picking up some steam over the years especially among those in the FIRE community. Essentially, in order to save money on housing costs, healthcare, or the general cost of living (think gas, food, taxes, transportation, etc) and get more for your dollar, you pick up and relocate to a new place. We know that the cost of living can vary greatly between cities but that your income may not increase or decrease accordingly, so this can be a powerful way to save money if it’s an option for you. The fifth strategy is to use Airbnb to increase your income. Although COVID-19 may make it difficult to put this in action at the moment, this is one to definitely consider when state’s start to re-open more in the future. Renting out your home, in-law suite, or room in your home can bring in extra cash and help you pay down your mortgage. The sixth way to reduce housing costs is to re-evaluate your homeowner’s insurance policy. Just like you’d shop around for car or disability insurance, you can do the same with homeowner’s insurance. You can also check in with your current company to see if there are any discounts available for installing certain security measures or for paying yearly vs monthly. The last strategy is to refinance your mortgage. With historically low interest rates, you may be able to significantly reduce your monthly mortgage payment. However, it’s important to keep in mind the total cost of the loan and any additional fees and costs you may incur when refinancing.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Nate, excited to have you back on the mic. How you been?

Nate Hedrick: Good, Tim. Thanks for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: It’s been I think a hot second since you were last on the show, Episode 178, where we talked about 5 lessons learned during your most recent investment property purchase. But I don’t want to assume that everyone listening knows who you are and what the Real Estate RPh is all about. So give us a brief background of you, your role in pharmacy, and how and why you started the Real Estate RPh.

Nate Hedrick: Absolutely. So I am a full-time pharmacist. I work with an insurance company here in Cleveland, Ohio. But I also moonlight or side hustle as a real estate agent. So I have my real estate license, have had that for four years now. And I work with local pharmacists and other health care professionals to help them buy and sell property here in Cleveland. And then that expanded a couple years ago into Real Estate RPh, which is a website that I run to educate pharmacists about the real estate process, help them find agents all over the country through our concierge service that we’ve partnered up with YFP for. So we do a lot of interesting stuff. And that’s really what my focus is on this year is really growing that network and being able to help more pharmacists around the country.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, it’s been fun to see that grow and more and more that are reaching out to you that are in that home buying process. So we will link in the show notes, obviously, to your site. We’ll also have some more information about the real estate concierge service for folks that want to learn more. We’ll come back to that throughout the episode. So today we’re talking all about ways — specifically, 7 ways — to reduce monthly housing costs. And I don’t think it’s any secret, I know from personal experience, that housing costs, whether that’s your mortgage or rent payment, make up a large chunk of many people’s budget. Now, check this out. According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, people that fall into the top income quintiles, many pharmacists of course would be included in this, spend around 30-32% of their pre-tax income on housing. 30-32%. That’s a big chunk of your earnings that immediately are being spent on housing each and every month. And when you think about other competing financial priorities, the ones we talk about all the time on the show: student loans, child care, food costs and so — it may feel like there isn’t much money left to put towards other goals. So of course, thinking about strategies for reducing monthly costs I suspect is relevant for many. So Nate, when working with clients looking to buy a home, do you ever give them any insight on how much of their income they should aim to allocate toward those housing costs? And how do you determine that?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, so you have to be a little bit careful as an agent, right? We are not financial advisors. You know, I don’t want to step outside my shoes a bit. But we always — whenever I’m meeting with a new client, I do make sure we talk early on about the importance of budgeting and making sure that they’re the ones setting the budget. I’ve had numerous clients come to me and said, “Hey, Nate, I got pre-approved for $600,000. What do you think about that?” And I said, “That’s great. What is your budget, though?” It’s a totally different question. So I always make sure that I bring that up, make sure that they understand that they need to set their own budget and then it’s my job to help keep them on budget. So if they come to me and say, “My budget is $300,000. I don’t want to spend a penny over that,” it is very easy for them to fall in love with a house that is $350,000. And it’s my job to make sure that they don’t go that direction, right? Especially if they’ve told me upfront, “This is our number. We want to stick to it.” I’ve seen it time and time again where if you start looking outside of your price range, all of a sudden, your price range goes up. So what I take my own role as is, “Look, I’m not going to tell you how to spend your money, but I’m going to help you stay on goal if that’s what you want me to do.”

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And I can’t overemphasize enough, you know, what you’re pre-approved for and what the budget is likely are two different things. And so really taking some time up front, you know, what are you looking for? How does that fit in with the rest of your financial goals? Obviously biased on our end — working with a financial planner to help do that. And then you go through the home buying process and make sure that that home buying purchase fits in with everything else that you want to do. Nate, when you heard that BLS statistic, you know, 30-32%, of course we recognize we’ve got listeners all over the country. Cost of living here in the great state of Ohio is very different than cost of living up in the Northeast or out West. So we recognize that. But generally speaking, is that statistic, 30-32% of pre-tax income on housing, is that pretty common what you see among pharmacist clients?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, if not a bit higher, right? I think that’s probably about right, but it tends to be that or more, I would say.

Tim Ulbrich: OK, makes sense. And of course, we have friends, family that are spending much more than 30% of their income on housing, maybe even spending 50% or more. And again, sometimes that’s subject to cost of living in certain parts of the country. So Nate, why is spending this much money on housing something that folks should — you know, I don’t know if avoid is necessarily the right word. Obviously for everyone it’s a personal decision. But that they should at least be aware of the impact that this might have on other parts of their financial plan.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, absolutely. I think sometimes it’s easy to look at it and say, “Well, I can handle that payment today. It won’t be a problem. But what does that look like in five years? In 10 years? You know, are you going to be working as much? Are both of you going to be working if you have a spouse? There are a lot of things that you want to plan for the future, and getting yourself into the highest possible payment right up front kind of cripples some of the opportunities you have later. So you could easily become house poor, you could — honestly, I’ve seen pharmacists, I’ve talked to pharmacists, who feel like they’re living paycheck to paycheck because that housing cost is so darn much that they have to commit such a large portion of their income to basically staying on track. Up front, if you can make that decision to pare that back a bit, it makes your options that much better down the road.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, makes sense. And I think we have a bias and a tendency — I know I do — to tend to look at our future state through the lens of today, right? It’s just natural. So of course things could change, you know, incomes could go up, but also incomes could go down. So do you have margin? You know, what about financial emergencies and being ready for those things, things that we may not be able to anticipate happening at this point in time? So it’s obvious that reducing monthly housing costs, if we’re talking about 30% or more of pre-tax income, can have a huge benefit on your financial plan. We know that when it comes to the financial plan, obviously income and disposable income is what we need to be able to allocate towards our goals. So whether that’s short- or long-term goals. So let’s dig into seven ways that people can reduce their housing costs. No. 1, Nate, we’re going to talk about is downsizing. And I think when people hear that word, they immediately think of living in a tiny home, moving to an apartment that’s drastically smaller than where they currently live. And if that’s what people want to do, great. You know, we’ve talked with several pharmacists that have had very creative housing situations. I think of Rena Crawford that we had on this show talking about her housing situation out in San Diego and her creativity with renovating a van while she was completing residency. And certainly those are exceptions probably to the norm. But what do we mean here when we talk about downsizing? And why can this be such an impactful way to reduce housing costs?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, I mean, anytime you’re talking about a larger home, more expensive home, it’s not just the house itself, right? You’re talking about more utilities. If you have more square footage, you’ve got more to heat, more electricity, all those different things go into it, more maintenance costs. If you’ve got a larger footprint of house, there’s more stuff that can break. So all of those things start to stack up. It’s not just a bigger house is it. So that’s kind of important. And what I find is that it’s not always about necessarily downsizing but making sure that when you start, you’re not upsizing, right? So downsizing can be a good move if you’re already in a house where you’re like man, this is really crippling our budget. We need to make a decision. But what I see most often is that people who take this ahead of time, before they ever buy their first house and think about OK, I don’t want to have to downsize later, what can I start with now and then work my way up down the future?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, that makes sense. And I think your point is a good one, being proactive — and not even just focusing on necessarily things like the square foot and the mortgage, of course, and those things but other things. You know, you mentioned taxes, you mentioned maintenance, you mentioned utilities. What about the lawn care? And really considering everything that’s involved — could be association fees and other things. How do clients that you work with — you know, I know one of the things folks may not necessarily be as obvious is OK, what is it going to cost me all-in per month? You know, of course you’ve got the mortgage and insurance and they’re thinking about those things. But they may not necessarily be thinking as much about utilities and other things. Of course, taxes are readily available information. I mean, is this information that’s typically forthcoming from the seller? Do people have to prod to try to get some utility payments and things like that to be able to best estimate what this is going to be for their budget?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, I usually recommend to my clients to ask. I’ve seen some sellers — and I’ve done this once — where we actually posted, not our bills exactly, but I had the seller pull their previous utility bills and say, “Look, let’s just put this number out there. That way a potential home buyer can feel good about it, that it’s going to be $300 a month for all this,” or what have you. That’s definitely something that we’re seeing people ask for, and it’s a great way to get a true estimate of what that particular property might be costing someone.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. And I think it’s worth mentioning here, of course when we talk about real estate transactions, you know, there’s costs that are involved. So making sure you’re factoring that in. If you’re going to pick up and move, how great — this is a conversation my wife and I have all this — you know, what’s the true net difference, right? So you might look at, hey, we’re going to sell for $350,000 and we’re going to buy for $250,000. But when you really consider the transaction costs, obviously the fees involved, the moving expenses, really trying to evaluate this and understand what the net difference is. So that’s No. 1, looking at downsizing. No. 2 is house hacking, I think a topic that you and I love, love talking about, one that we have both said on this show several times, “Man, if I could do it all over again, I would have house hacked.” So something we talked about Episode 130, I had Craig Curelop on from Bigger Pockets, episode talking about house hacking your way to financial freedom. And that episode I thought was a great overview in his book of the house hacking process. And it’s a real estate investing strategy that we love but also can serve your primary home needs. So Nate, break it down for us. For those that aren’t aware or perhaps a refresher, what exactly is house hacking? And how can it be a powerful way to reduce housing costs?

Nate Hedrick: So house hacking at its core is the idea that you are buying a property in some way, shape, or form that you are going to live in part of it and you are going to have a renter live in another part. And so traditionally with a house hack, you’re looking at like a duplex, a triplex, or a quad, which you can buy as a — the bank looks at it like a single family home. But you can live in one unit and then you can rent out the others. And ideally, with a proper house hack, you’re having that renter basically pay for your mortgage or pay for your mortgage and your taxes in an ideal world. But the idea is that if you can live in part of the house, rent out the other part, you’re going to have far less housing expenses because you’ve got someone else paying for it for you.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And I think it’s certainly can look very different for the reasons you mentioned. And one of the things I like about Craig’s book on house hacking, he gives a lot of different examples from his personal situation, others that did it, that I think will give folks a variety of ideas about what house hacking may look like for them and how it may or may not fit into their home buying goals. So Nate, have you worked with clients that have done a house hack? And if so, what was their motivation?

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, actually, I’ve got one right now that I’m working with locally here in Cleveland that’s looking to house hack, which is fun. We’ve been doing — running numbers on houses recently and looking for opportunities. And right now, this pharmacist is actually living in a house with a couple of roommates, wants to buy his own place but doesn’t want the housing prices or the housing expenses to jump dramatically, right? If you go from living in a $400 a month room or whatever the cost is there to this big housing payment, it might be a shock to your budget. But if he can transition to only a couple hundred dollars because the house hack is paying for some of that cost, you can get your own place, start building equity, all the advantages of owning a home without this huge uptick in expenses. So I’ve been working with him to try to find that opportunity. And then we’ve got a ton of concierge clients throughout the country that have done this. I think we’ve talked with a couple here and mentioned a couple in the past that have primarily been searching for a house hack when they’re looking for their first house.

Tim Ulbrich: Love it. And speaking of roommates, let’s talk about roommates. No. 3 here on our list of seven ways to reduce your housing costs, No. 3 is get a roommate. Nate, I thought this wasn’t college anymore. So similar to house hacking, getting a roommate obviously could be a way to reduce housing costs. Talk to us about the role that this can play.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, especially again, I think people overlook this because like you said, once you buy a house, like I can’t — I can’t go backward, I can’t have a roommate now. But it’s a great way — if you’re in a personal situation where it makes sense, it’s a great way to reduce your expenses for both people. And you can take this as simply as, you know, I’m going to have my brother move back and he’s going to pay me a little bit of rent, or is as severe as putting an ad on Craigslist and having a stranger come live with you. You know, we’ve actually gotten a chance to talk to a couple of individuals here that are experts in this, I would argue. Ryan Shaw on Episode 173 knows all about how to deal with roommates and keeping them sane. And then Bryce Platt, one of our concierge clients that actually went out and bought — Episode 160 for those that are looking for it. He actually went out and bought a condo basically that had — was set up to have three other roommates with him. And so that’s part of that process. So it’s not uncommon anymore, and it’s a great way to reduce your overall expenses.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think it’s worth, you know, the reminder or maybe the obvious statement of your first housing situation will likely not be your forever situation, right? So whether it’s a roommate directly living with you or in a situation like Bryce, that may work for awhile and then you decide you may move on. But now you’ve got an investment property that perhaps you can hold onto as well. So that’s No. 3, get a roommate. No. 4, perhaps the most interesting, my favorite on the list, but also likely very unpopular to some folks that love where they live. This is geoarbitrage. And Scott Rieckens, author of “Playing with FIRE,” mentioned this on the podcast last week, Episode 188. And I think it’s such an interesting way to reduce your housing costs. And I think this actually stems back to some of Tim Ferriss’ work talking about geoarbitrage. So Nate, what is geoarbitrage? And how can it help someone’s budget?

Nate Hedrick: So it’s a concept that basically you are — and we’re seeing a lot of this grow in the FIRE community, like you mentioned Scott but many others in the FIRE community are embracing this idea that in order to save money on housing costs or the cost of living based on a certain area, you basically you pick up and move to a new place. And we’re seeing this really taking off, especially with the changes in how people are working during the pandemic and hopefully after the pandemic is over. Work from home is just totally different than it’s ever been before. And you can basically do your job from anywhere now. If Option 1 is to live in downtown New York in a tiny apartment for a huge, huge cost, but Option 2 is to do that exact same job in Cleveland, Ohio, here, your costs go down dramatically. And so a lot of people are looking at this like, are there other areas that I can live in that I can either find a better job or keep my same job and work remotely that are going to improve my overall housing costs without dramatically impacting my life?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah and again, I think this is not a forever situation, right? I know I’ve brought this up to various groups when I’ve been speaking before. You know, often you get that look of like, Tim, are you really suggesting that I pick up and move? You know? And it’s not necessarily for everyone, right? Sometimes there’s family situations, other things, where this is not even a possibility for a variety of reasons. But I think sometimes, this is a way to think a little bit more creatively, especially for those that might be in an area where jobs are also saturated. You know, if you could get to a lower cost of living area and perhaps open up some additional job opportunities, this might be something to consider while also accelerating your financial goals. And I think, again, it really depends on one’s personal situation. But I think what makes this so attractive for pharmacists, Nate, you know this, I know this, our community knows this, we do see incomes change slightly in higher cost of living areas but nowhere near what they should proportionally to the expense of those areas, right?

Nate Hedrick: Right. Absolutely.

Tim Ulbrich: So an ambulatory care pharmacist in Cleveland, Ohio, and an ambulatory care pharmacist in San Diego, that salary difference — while there likely is one from my experience in talking with folks — it does not represent the cost of living differences between those two areas.

Nate Hedrick: Definitely.

Tim Ulbrich: And so you know, I think that because of the nature of how that is treated with pharmacy jobs, this concept might also be attractive. And check this out for a minute, Nate. We pulled some data from RentCafe. The average rent for a 700 square foot –703 square feet, to be exact — in Manhattan is around $3,800. But the average rent for a slightly larger place, 883 square feet, in Little Rock, Arkansas — shoutout to our community in Arkansas — is $830.

Nate Hedrick: There you go.

Tim Ulbrich: Of course, Manhattan and Little Rock are not the same thing. Very different cities, right, in terms of what people are looking for and so on. But it just highlights, you know, what does that mean for monthly cash flow, what are your options. And you know, when I see $3,800 a month for 700 square feet, you and I both know what $3,800 a month can buy in Ohio, right?

Nate Hedrick: Seriously. Yeah, it’s crazy.

Tim Ulbrich: It could go a long way. So again, you know, obviously leaving family, friends, your job can be tough. Certainly not for everyone, but I think it’s one thing to consider and for — you mentioned the reasons of mobility now with some jobs having some more remote capabilities. So that’s No. 4, geoarbitrage. No. 5 is Airbnb. Nate, this is one that I think really pushes people to be creative in how they are cutting expenses or bringing in additional income. And we had Hillary Blackburn on Episode 121, where she talked about creating another stream of income as an Airbnb host and specifically talked about how her and her husband rent out their Nashville home for about $600 a night. So talk to us about how folks can use Airbnb or a similar model, of course, we’re just mentioning Airbnb, and use their home to bring in some additional money.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, I think it’s gotten a little trickier during COVID having somebody in your house or what have you. But still, the idea there is really solid. If you can use the space that you already have — and maybe this is an extra bedroom or maybe it’s a whole extra in-law suite or a pool house or you name it, right — if you’ve got a way to rent out some of that portion of that property that you already have, and it’s a desirable area especially, you can pull in a lot of extra income to offset some of those housing costs. And again, like you talked about Nashville being $600 a night, if you’re in an area that people want to travel to, especially as things start to open back up, I really think that there’s opportunity there for you to get some serious income for that place.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and again, this is one that may make sense for some, not for others. We’ve got an Airbnb calculator on the site. You can see, you know, roughly what you may be earning as an Airbnb host. That’s YourFinancialPharmacist.com/airbnbcalculator. We’ll link to that in the show notes. So that’s No. 5 on our list of seven ways to reduce housing costs. No. 6, Nate, re-evaluate your homeowners insurance policy. I just did this, so this one is top of mind for me. But I think this is something, you know, we haven’t talked a whole lot about on the show but certainly could be a way that folks may be able to shave off money off of their monthly budget, especially if their policies may have creeped over time. And because of escrow and other factors, they may not be aware or as closely aware as they could be of that. So talk to us about re-evaluating your homeowners insurance policy.

Nate Hedrick: Home insurance policy, if you have a mortgage, right, it’s really one of the only things that you can change. Your taxes are consistent, right? The county’s going to set those. The mortgage and the lender payment is set by the lender. HOA fees, that’s all fixed costs. But the home insurance policy, kind of the other piece that usually gets wrapped into that, is somewhat flexible. And it’s not — it’s not as common to mess with the home insurance policy as someone might shop around for like car insurance or disability insurance or life insurance.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Nate Hedrick: But realize that you can actually make quite a bit of difference with your home insurance policy. And it can change dramatically based on a number of factors. So if you change your deductible, for example. If you go from a $500 deductible on a home insurance claim to $1,000, you might save 25% on your home insurance policy in some cases. The other thing I’ll see a lot with home insurance is that if you are what’s called escrowing your home insurance or your housing insurance, a lot of times that bank will say, OK, well, we’re going to pay — and escrowing, just briefly, is that you actually pay the bank, you pay the mortgage lender to handle paying your insurance company for you. So usually you’re giving them money every single month as part of your normal housing payment. They’re taking a portion of that, setting it aside in an untouchable account called an escrow account, and then from that account, they basically pay your insurance company. But what I’ve found is that if you have that money in escrow, you don’t get a lot of flexibility with how that payment works. And if you can pull that out — and some lenders will allow you to do this free, some may charge you a small amount — but if you can pull that out, you can get even more creative with how you pay it. I’ve noticed that if you pay your home insurance premium monthly versus yearly, you can get a huge discount by paying it all up front. And so if you know you’re going to be there and you have the funds to do so, you can actually pay it Day 1 of the year and get a whole year’s worth of that payment taken care of at a much lower rate. So there are more flexibility here than I think people really realize, but a lot of it comes down to what are you allowed to do with your lender? And what are you willing to do in terms of that negotiation process?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think too — great stuff there, Nate — I think it’s important to note, as you mentioned, these policies vary, you know, in terms of what they coverage, what the coverage includes, obviously personal belongings, other features of policies, and one thing I notice in this process, which certainly makes sense for those that have gone through this one or more times before, is that it’s easy to get focused on price shopping and not necessarily do an apples-to-apples comparison on coverage. So you know, some of these policies may present themselves as oh, well, you know, we could save you $300 a year or whatever. But when you look at the close details of the policy, you might be changing some of your coverage components. So I found it helpful, if you want to keep coverage the same, essentially as you’re going out and getting quotes, say, “This is my coverage. These are the eight things that are included. Here’s my deductible, here’s what’s covered in the policy. And basically give me a quote for this coverage.” You know? So you can do an apples-to-apples type of comparison.

Nate Hedrick: And watch because some will call things something different, right? They’ll have this special feature with Company A versus Company B and it’s literally just the same thing but with a different name. So watch out for that. The other thing I wanted to mention too is that some of them will offer discounts based on certain parameters of your home. So if you live in a disaster-prone area, ask them about what you can do to your homeowners insurance policy by doing some disaster-proofing. Maybe it’s adding storm shutters or maybe it’s actually a security discount. I’ve seen where if you put in electronic locks or deadbolts, just simple deadbolts versus a regular door lock, they will give you a discount on your overall insurance policy. So there are a number of things you should ask about too, like is there any way for me to get a discount on this? What can I do to improve this?

Tim Ulbrich: Yes. Always ask for a discount, right? Yeah, and as some of you are looking to shop around, you know, certainly many ways that you can go about this. Policy Genius is somebody we’ve talked about before, allowing you to compare life and disability insurance quotes, now also has a platform to compare homeowners insurance quotes. Also, renters insurance as well. If you go to PolicyGenius.com/YourFinancialPharmacist, you can learn more. So that’s No. 6 on our list of seven ways to reduce your monthly housing costs. No. 7 is refinance your mortgage. Again, something that’s near and dear to me. We went through this process last summer. We’ve talked about how low rates have been recently for purchasing a home, for refinancing your mortgage over the last year. Nate, talk to us about what mortgage refinancing is and how this can ultimately lower monthly housing costs.

Nate Hedrick: Yeah, so think about refinancing as basically resetting or getting a new loan. Effectively, what you are doing is you are clearing out your old loan, someone is paying that old loan off, and you’re establishing a brand new loan. So it’s similar to — we’ve talked about student loan refinancing. It’s the same idea, right? We’re paying off what you currently have with Lender A, and we’re moving that to Lender B at a new rate or at a lower monthly payment. And so the goal here would be obviously to lower the interest rate and then hopefully as a result, your overall payments are going to go down. So you’re going to eliminate your — hopefully maybe eliminate PMI if you have that in place today. You can, again, drop your interest rate from maybe a variable to a fixed rate that is much lower. You could lower the term over which you’re paying that loan. So you could go from a 20-year rate to a 15 or a 30-year to a 15. And now your overall expenses for the longevity of that house are going to go down. So there are a number of ways that you can use refinancing to cut your costs. But if you’re looking to lower your monthly housing payment, a lot of times it comes down to finding an interest rate that is lower than what you have today and finding a term that makes sense for your financial plan and is less than what you’re paying already.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think it’s, although obvious, worth reiterating one of the traps that I see folks often falling into is yes, you know, you can lower the monthly payment, but if you’re extending out the term, keep in mind the total cost of the loan, right?

Nate Hedrick: Yep.

Tim Ulbrich: So trying to make this as apples-to-apples as you can. If you’re already five years into a 30-year term, and you refinance out to a 30-year, obviously you’re tacking on five more years. So yeah, monthly payment might go down, likely will if interest rates are lower, but what does that mean in terms of the total amount paid over the life of the loan? And keeping that in mind as you’re evaluating various options.

Nate Hedrick: And don’t forget, you’ve got closing costs as well in there, right? So you’ve got to make sure that the actual process of buying that loan, you’re getting a new loan but there’s going to be closing costs associated with that to factor in as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. Great stuff, Nate. Seven ways to reduce your housing costs, certainly a topic for the reasons we mentioned at the beginning I think folks are interested in. This won’t be the last time that we hear from you and so if you’re listening and you’re looking to buy your first home or you’re looking to move and you want to work with an agent, you don’t currently have one, as Nate alluded to, we’ve got the concierge service working with Nate. It’s free to our community to work with Nate, who will help get you connected with a realtor in your area. And you can go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com, click on “Buy or Refi a Home” at the top, and once you do that, you’ll see an option to find an agent and that will get you connected up with Nate. Also, if you’re looking for a loan, looking to refi your mortgage, want some additional information, again, YourFinancialPharmacist.com, and then you can click on “Buy or Refi a Home” and get some additional information. So Nate, as always, appreciate your time and expertise and thanks for your contribution on the show.

Nate Hedrick: Thanks for having me.

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YFP 189: Options for Investing When You’re Maxing Out Your Retirement Accounts

Posted on by yfpadmin

Options for Investing When You’re Maxing Out Your Retirement Accounts

On this episode sponsored by LendKey, Tim Baker, Co-Founder and Director of Financial Planning at Your Financial Pharmacist, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about strategies for investing when you have maxed out your traditional retirement accounts.

Summary

Tim Baker and Tim Ulbrich dive into what traditional retirement accounts are, how contributions have or have not changed, the priority of investing, and strategies for investing when you’ve maxed out your traditional retirement accounts.

Tim Baker explains that traditional retirement accounts are generally any employer sponsored accounts, like 401(k), 403(b), 401(a), or TSP accounts. Traditional IRA, Roth IRA, SEP Ira, and Simple IRA accounts are also considered traditional retirement accounts. Many of these accounts have stayed stagnant in regards to contribution limits from 2020 to 2021, like 401(k) and 403(b) accounts which remain at $19,500. However, IRA accounts have increased to $6,000 (aggregate total for traditional and Roth accounts) and HSA contributions have increased to $3,600 (single) and $7,200 (family) with a catch up of $1,000 for those over 55.

Tim suggests a few areas of investing to consider after maxing out traditional retirement accounts. Real estate investing is a viable way to build wealth as it often provides flexibility and cash flow, can generate both short and long term gains, and comes with a lot of tax benefits. Of course there are risks involved with real estate investing and it isn’t as passive as a traditional retirement account, but can be a way to help grow your income and net worth. Starting or investing in a business is another avenue to take after maxing out your retirement accounts. This could be in the form of starting a side hustle or business, inheriting or becoming part of a family business, or investing in a partnership. Lastly, taxable brokerage accounts like Robinhood or Acorns are a good stepping stone to get into a different type of investing, however Tim suggests being intentional with what your setting brokerage accounts up for. He also shares that the more boring you can be with investments, like investing in the S&P 500 or total market index funds, the better it is.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker, good to have you back on the mic. What’s new?

Tim Baker: Not much. Just settling into our new office, YFP headquarters in downtown Columbus. So that’s coming together slowly with just furniture and everything else. But yeah, just getting comfortable. How about you?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, exciting times, I think, for YFP. Excited about having you in Columbus. And we’ve got some exciting things planned for the year, and so here today we’re talking about all options for investing after you’ve maxed out traditional retirement accounts. So first of all, if you are somebody listening that hasn’t maxed out your traditional retirement accounts, kudos to you. That’s not an easy thing to do by any means. And remember, as we say many times on the show, investing is only one part of the financial plan. It can’t be looked at in a silo. And for those that are listening that are at the beginning of the investing journey or looking for a refresher, make sure to check out episodes 072-076, our Investing 101 series, as well as Episode 163, Investing Beyond the 401k, 403b, where we discussed IRAs and HSAs in details. And so we’re going to build upon that information here today. So Tim Baker, let’s back up a bit. What are we talking about when we say traditional retirement accounts?

Tim Baker: I guess the thing that pops into my head first and foremost are going to be what’s provided through the employer. That’s typically things like the 401k, the 403b. A lot of us have supplemental retirement plans, things like the 457, some people have 4018s, which are kind of like 401k’s. And then those that we kind of manage ourselves or through the help of a financial planner, so these are things like traditional IRAs, Roth IRAs. Sometimes we’ll see SEP IRAs for those that are self-employed or work for a small business. And simple IRAs also fall under that. So traditionally, those are the ones that we lean on first when we’re kind of looking at ways to defer income for the purposes of saving for retirement.

Tim Ulbrich: So talking about 2021 numbers here, have contribution limits changed from 2020 as folks are considering, alright, new year, what could I be doing to take advantage of these accounts?

Tim Baker: Some of them have changed, but a lot of them actually stayed stagnant. So the most common, the 401k/403b, is the same. So in 2020, you could put $19,500 per year. And that’s of your own money, so doesn’t matter what the match is that your employer gives you. That’s of your own money. And that’s the same for 2021. So you know, if you take your income, you take $19,500 and divide it by your income, that’s the max percentage that you could put in throughout the course of that year. So what I always say to clients that — particularly those that are starting out and maybe they have a little 401k inertia, which is hey, I put 3% and my employer matched 3%, and then they get stuck there. Years later, they’re 5-10 years into their career and they’re still there, that’s typically not going to be enough. So I kind of like the idea of planting the seed of a race to 10% or a race to double digits. And again, that’s kind of just a rule of thumb. Now, in the IRA world, the contribution limits are also the same. So you can put up to $6,000 per year, if you’re thinking about this monthly, $500 a month, into a traditional and/or Roth IRA. So that’s an aggregate number. So if I put $1,000 into my traditional, I can put $5,000 into my Roth IRA. And then probably the other one that I would call out that actually did creep up a bit is the HSA, the Health Savings Account, which is the one that we always talk about that has the triple tax benefit. So if you’re in a high deductible health plan, you basically qualify for that. If you’re an individual, you can put up to $3,600 per year. If you’re a family, $7,200. And then if you’re over 55, there’s a catchup of $1,000 per year as well. So those would probably be the ones that I would call out. So again, if you are in that population of people — which I wouldn’t say it’s always a lot of the clients that we’re working with — but if you are in that population of people that are maxing out the 401k, the IRA, the HSA, then this episode, you know, might be for you where you’re like, OK, well where do I go next?

Tim Ulbrich: And as a reminder, we have a new quick reference guide too. You can quickly take a look at 2021 key retirement numbers, including 401k, 403b, traditional IRA, Roth contribution limits, HSA, education tax credit incentives, required minimum distribution, tax rates. So for those number nerds out there, this is for you. YourFinancialPharmacist.com/2021, you can download that sheet. So Tim, that was one of my questions. I talked with a prospective client this morning who was really in this camp of, you know what, I need to full throttle my investing plan. So I’m at a point of or near at a point of maxing out my 401k, yes, I see another $6,000 I can put in an IRA, doesn’t necessarily have access to an HSA, so is at this point of alright, I’m ready to go with the next steps. So how often do you see this among pharmacists and clients of ours? How hard is it for pharmacists to max them out? And for those that aren’t maxing them out, what’s typically holding them back?

Tim Baker: It’s hard. I think, again, it depends on where you are in kind of your career and where you’re at. If you are a more of a new practitioner and you’re saddled with six figures of debt, to put money into a 401k can be a little bit of a tough go, especially if you’re looking at a $2,000 monthly loan payment. Sometimes, that is very much baked into the strategy that we are employing that the money that goes into these pre-tax accounts lowers AGI and potentially maximizes a forgiveness play, or if you’re looking at a I’ve refinanced, I’m trying to get through them quickly, I am paying $2,000, $3,000, $4,000, sometimes just not a lot of money left over to go into these retirement accounts. Now, there are 10% of pharmacists out there — those are the numbers — that don’t have loans, that kind of the world is their oyster. But that doesn’t always necessarily mean that their money is going into retirement accounts. A lot of pharmacists after going through years and years of training, it’s kind of like, alright, I need to treat myself a little bit. And then that can sometimes be hard to get out of as well. So I think the flip side of that is if you are further along in your career — so the answer, you know, one of the questions is like, is it a big deal that I’m not maxing these out? And I’m like, it depends. If you’re 35 and you’re trying to retire by 50, maybe it is a big deal. If you’re 45 or 50 and you’re trying to retire by 60, maybe it is a big deal. So I think it’s a little bit of, again, looking at the math and how you feel about what your retirement prospects look like and then marrying those two up. But I think if you are in early in your career and you’re maxing these out, it’s just such an easier lift because in the investments, it’s not about timing the market, it’s about time in the market. And if you can get your money working and have that work for 3-4 decades, that money, you know, is just going to go that much further rather if you wait a decade or two out before retirement. So typically, the earlier that you do it, just the easier that number is that you need to be setting aside per month versus waiting. And that’s really what we’re talking about here.

Tim Ulbrich: And I’m going to give a disclaimer here, Tim, before I ask my next question that none of what we’re talking about here is obviously individual investment advice. And for the reason you just mentioned there, it does very much depend on one’s personal situation. And it’s becoming the running joke of, “it depends,” on this podcast. But it’s so true and speaks to the value of one-on-one, customized planning. So my question is, you know, let’s say someone is investing in their 401k/403b or employer-sponsored plan, should they focus on maxing that out first? And really, what I’m getting here is what’s the order of priority when it comes to investing and how do we think through determining this order?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so if we kind of can figure out like how to navigate the multiple competing priorities — and obviously, we talked about like student debt, you know, we didn’t really focus on consumer debt, which we have a lot of pharmacists that come to us that are — we recently started working with a pharmacist, and their biggest pain point was about $50,000 in consumer and personal debt. So — and rightfully so. That’s the one that’s probably the most debilitating. If we can work through the other competing priorities like other pieces of debt and the life events that are — whether it’s marriage, buying a house, having kids, going on vacation, caring for elder parents, you know, saving for kids’ educations, and all that stuff, then really, the baseline I think priority that we typically look at — and I would probably say for Step 1, everything else aside, unless you have really terrible credit card debt, at a minimum I think everyone that has a match available to them from their employer, they should capitalize on that. So you know, the old adage is like, take advantage of the free money. So one of the things I’ll humble brag is like YFP, we have a Safe Harbor 401k that if our employees put in 5%, we match 4%. And I want to make sure that everyone’s taking advantage of that because it is free money. So to me, for the most part, everyone should do that. From there, you know, if there is an HSA on the table due to a high-deductible plan, I’d probably say that would probably be the second bucket to look at because it has a lot of versatility in terms of what you can use it for. You can use it for today’s health expenses, tomorrow’s health expenses, and then tomorrow’s like retirement. And with the triple tax benefit, if you can shelter $3,600-$7,200 per year for the next x amount of years, that’s a great benefit. And then from there, what we typically say is look outside of the 401k and look at things like IRAs, whether that’s a Roth IRA or a traditional IRA. The reason for that is typically, a lot of 401k’s are strapped with administrative fees and/or there’s not a lot of investment options. But it’s more tied to the fees. So if you can establish an IRA and keep costs low, I think that’s a big win. We believe that the expense related to investments is going to be one of the bigger drivers in making sure that you have an efficient portfolio. So if we can do that in an IRA — and to go back to that, a lot of 401k’s are not created equal. So you have some great 401k’s and 403b’s that are absolutely efficient and fantastic, and then you have those that are not. And it can be a very, very wide range. We’re talking about, you know, very wide differences between great and not-so-great. Typically, though, once you max out the IRA, what you want to do is go back to the 401k and max that out. So that’s that $19,500. So again, you calculate that by $19,500 divided by your — or your income divided by the $19,500 — and that’s the percentage that you use. And then finally — and this can probably work concurrently in some ways — you know, if you do have access to other retirement plans or SEP IRAs if you have a side business or things like that, that might be another good way to go. And then from there, from a traditional sense, you know, a lot of financial planners will just point you to a brokerage account. So those individuals that have like a Robinhood account or an Acorns account, where they typically do that Step 1 or Step 2, you know, in most instances, it’s better to kind of make sure that you’re doing all these other things first. But it could be a brokerage account, it could be where you get into real estate investing. It could be where you are buying into a business or starting a business, things like that. But that’s kind of a general rule of thumb for most investors on how to tackle the priority.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff, Tim. And we will link in the show notes, we have an investing priority document. We’ve talked about it previously on the podcast as well. I can’t help but mention, you brought Robinhood’s name up before — what a week for Robinhood with the whole Gamestop thing going on this week.

Tim Baker: Yeah, I know, right?

Tim Ulbrich: Pretty crazy times. But I think brokerage accounts are getting a lot of attention this week. So we’ve established some of these more traditional accounts, 401k’s or 403b’s, or for those that are working in the federal government, of course the TSP, you mentioned the HSA, the IRAs, going back to the 401k or 403b or equivalent, perhaps a SEP IRA. And then we got to this, you know, what’s next, right? And so of course, often the advice is a brokerage account. But you mentioned several other things that might be in the mix, so perhaps real estate investing, of course, the brokerage account, investing in a business — I know I often hear something like insurance type of investments may come up. So let’s break these down a little bit further. First off, real estate investing. This is something we talked about a lot in 2020 and are excited to dig into this topic even more in 2021 as we’ve heard from many of you that are interested in learning more about real estate investing, whether that’s hearing some of this for the first time, whether that’s investing in building the portfolio that you already have, or perhaps for some of you, hearing and saying, you know what, it’s not a good fit for me. And obviously, we try to bring both sides of this, of sharing stories of folks that have been successful but also appropriately bringing in the risks that can come here as well. So Tim Baker, from your perspective, I know you personally have an investment property, I know this is something that has come up with clients, something we’re talking more and more about with clients, tell us at a high level why real estate investing, from your perspective, can be something at least worth evaluating for folks out that are maxing out these accounts?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think, you know, if we step back and we kind of think about like traditional financial planners, I think, you know, what I typically hear is from a financial planner, like ah, like do you really want to do that? Because do you want to unclog toilets at 2 in the morning? And the answer is no, nobody wants to do that. But I think the sentiment is really rooted in how the advisor gets paid in a lot of ways. So traditional financial planners are really going to get compensated by you, the client, having as much money in your traditional investments, whether that’s an IRA or a brokerage account or a 401k for you to eventually roll over to them for them to manage. I guess the way that we view this is we view real estate as a viable way to build wealth outside of traditional investments that have both kind of near-term benefits of flexibility and cash flow, you know — for example, when you put your money into a 401k, like wave goodbye to that until you’re at least 59.5, for the most part. So you never really can get access to that where if I buy a property, like I could start cash flowing that and make $100, $200, $300 off of that property the next month. There’s that near term, but then you’re also building, and the asset is appreciating as the note that you’re paying down is depreciated. And then there’s a lot of tax benefits from that in terms of being able to make income but then offset that by the deductions. And there’s a lot of things that’s built into the IRS tax code that reward real estate investors. And I think the other thing that’s flexible is that you could keep that, you know, if you talk about a buy-and-hold strategy, you could keep that for the next 30 years just like you keep a 401k. Or you could say 10 years into it, I want to liquidate this and do something else and basically cash out the equity that you have in the property and go do something completely else, which means you could retire on that. So that is maybe another viable strategy. So because of the flexibility, I think because of the tax benefits that you receive, I think it’s a viable way to build wealth. Now, is it as passive as traditional investment? No. And the more passive it is, the less benefit and flexibility that you’ll get. The more actively managed it is, typically the more flexibility and benefit that you get. But then the tradeoff is that you’re actively managing and it takes time and there’s risk. Well, there’s risk in anything. But I think, Tim, really for those reasons, that’s why we like it. And we think it’s a vi — again, a viable way to build wealth. And at the end of the day, the way that we work with clients is what we’re trying to do is help grow and protect income so you could make an argument that we’re growing income in a real estate portfolio by, you know, we’re cash flowing and we’re protecting it because maybe we’re diversifying that away from a typical pharmacist’s salary. We’re growing and protecting the net worth, which means what we have a collateralized asset with a note that’s appreciating over time, while keeping your goals in mind. So again, if that means early retirement, if that means more of a nontraditional path in terms of the career, I think the real estate aspect creates a lot of opportunity to really fulfill financial independence in the eyes of the pharmacist.

Tim Ulbrich: And I’m so glad, Tim, you mentioned the story and example that’s often used as the objection early on of like, who wants to be a plumber in the middle of the night? And I remember — for those that have read “Rich Dad Poor Dad,” they will be able to resonate with this — but I remember reading that book for the first time, and it was like unlocking like a piece of information that I hadn’t really been exposed to or learned before. And that obviously is a little bit more philosophical in nature, and then you start talking to people who are doing it and learning more about it, and that’s one of the great things about where we are in 2021, I mean, the resources available out there to learn more and to connect with others that are doing it is really, really incredible. But I think being open to learning, you know, perhaps being willing to see what might be the answer to some of those objections is really important. And we’re excited to bring more pharmacist’s stories to this community in 2021 on real estate investing and also connect other pharmacist investors with one another. And I would point folks back to Episode 167, we brought on David Bright to talk about must-know real estate terminology. I think that’s a great place to start. You mentioned, Tim, many of the upsides and benefits, perhaps appreciation, cash flow, tenants paying down a loan, some tax benefits, obviously we’re just scratching the surface here. And obviously, you also presented some of the challenge. You know, it may not necessarily be passive, the quality of tenants may or may not be what you have in mind. I think too there’s a little bit of, you know, I call it HGTV syndrome, Tim, in terms of like, you know, you watch the flipping show and you’re like, yeah, I got it, right? And so I think we’ve all got to take a step back and really make sure we’re not overconfident. But I think for pharmacists, I’m not sure overconfidence is often the risk here. I think it’s probably being too passive and feeling like it’s out-of-reach and not necessarily being willing to take what they may feel is a very significant risk to get started. So we’ve talked about several of these strategies on the episode thus far, you know, obviously there’s the buy-and-hold strategy. In Episode 129, we brought on Aaron Howell, and he discussed how he built a 29-unit portfolio. We brought Ryan Chaw on Episode 140 about how he built his portfolio of college town investing. Episode 173, we brought him back on to talk about his systems, which was a really neat episode to hear how he actually operationalizes this. Obviously that’s one strategy, buy and hold. We’ve talked about flips before, Nate Hedrick, 178, five lessons learned from his flip. And we’re going to continue the conversation. There’s other areas, of course, in wholesaling and forming partnerships, and we’re excited about what’s ahead here. So real estate investing, Tim, is one aspect. Another that pops to mind that is near and dear to our hearts, obviously, with what we’ve been building at YFP is building a business, investing in a business, and this, of course, is a big topic. But at a high level, you know, what types of things do you see from our clients in terms of whether it’s side hustles that they’re starting, businesses that they’re starting or even perhaps looking at investing in other businesses and how they begin to evaluate whether that’s a path forward for them?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so I think what I see most frequently is an interest in a closely-held family business, so like a private company that was inherited from maybe a grandfather or things like that and, you know, the question is like, should I keep this? Like what’s the benefit? And you know, they’re getting K1 every year with maybe a little bit of income that they have to basically declare for the IRS. So it could be like more like that. But then I think that there’s also — I mean, we’ve had clients that have taken their side business, their side hustle, and made it a fully fledged, like a regular business. So it could be just plowing money back into the business itself rather than going into the traditional, but I also have had clients interested in investing in like a partnership, whether it’s like a gym or things like that that, you know, that’s a little bit more of a — there’s a lot of risk there. There’s a lot of, again, what’s your role? What do you bring to the business? Is it money? Is it expertise? Is it planning? Is it clients? And kind of really understanding that. Sometimes, it’s just money. So it’s like, hey, I’m going put money in and let you do your thing, and you’re kind of more of a silent investor. So this can come — just like real estate, this can come in a lot of different flavors. So can investing in a business. Again, one of my favorite shows on TV is “Shark Tank.” So I love watching that and how investors speak with business owners and I’m always interested in business just because I just like to talk small business, in particular, and what makes it work and not work. I think we have a lot of clients that are there. I would say for the most part, the predominant thing that I see is a share of an inherited family business or really, taking this hobby or this side hustle and really forming a fully fledged business and how to really handle that. And a lot of the conversation is, you know, do I take money out of the business? Or do I basically reinvest into the business so I make sure it survives and grows?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and we will continue — one of the areas that I’m very passionate about in the profession of pharmacy is I feel like we are missing some creativity around helping students as well as helping pharmacists just imagine what could be different possibilities or ideas. And I think we do that by sharing stories. Not that they necessarily hear a story of a business or side hustle and say, “I’m going to do exactly that,” but to help them think about another area as an example of something that they’re passionate about in terms of solving a problem, creating a solution to that problem. And so we’ll be bringing more in that area. And you know, I agree. We have to know — you know, everyone knows the stats that most small businesses don’t work. Debbie Downer reality. But I think for those that really do their due diligence, understand what their business is all about, is there a market for it, you know, there certainly is some upsides financially in terms of tax, building equity. One of the things that gets me so excited about business is that there may not be a ceiling. Obviously there can also be a floor.

Tim Baker: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: Or falling through a floor that you have to be aware of and also access to some of the retirement options that we’ve already talked about. So we mentioned, again, in the context of investing beyond maxing out traditional accounts, we’ve talked about real estate, we’ve talked about investing in business. What about probably the most common area here, which is taxable and brokerage accounts? What are some things as you’re working with clients that you’re advising them, getting them to think about, whether it’s choosing where they’re going to be investing that money, how they might keep fees low, how they determine where those investments go? Talk to us about the approach in putting money into a taxable or brokerage account.

Tim Baker: The most common that you see are kind of like the Robinhood, Acorns just because they’re UI and they’re use is so clean and easy. And I think for a lot of people that are curious about investing, it’s a first way — you know, kind of the first way to kind of wade in and see, OK, I want to buy this stock, etc. Typically, we talk about the priority of investing, you know, we just started working with a client that had, again, $20,000 in credit card debt but then they have a $10,000 like Robinhood account. And I’m like, those probably don’t make sense. So I think like with brokerage accounts, what I am a big fan of seeing with savings is like what is this account actually for? So a lot of the uses that we see for brokerage accounts are a tax bomb. So those that are taking non-PSLF forgiveness, you know, they need to cover that tax bill. So they’re putting money into a brokerage account because they’re going to need to access it before 59.5 years old, so they can’t put it into their retirement account, and they need to be able to pay off that tax bill when the loan is forgiven. The other one is, again, when we max everything out, that’s a good use for it. So what I typically urge clients to do, though — and it really directs how we’re going to allocate that particular account — is what is it for? So if you’re trying to retire at 50, all of these traditional accounts that we’ve talked about, for the most part — and there’s some exceptions of what you can do, but you can’t really access them without a penalty until you’re 59.5 years old. So that means you have 10 years, 9.5 years where you have to figure something out. And usually, that figure something out is having a robust brokerage account or maybe liquidating part of a real estate portfolio to be able to cover those first 10 years of retirement. I think the big thing here is if you have an IRA, I probably would just have your brokerage account there. And I’m not down on any of these other apps or things like that, but I think for ease of use — and again, not every custodian is equal; there’s going to be different fees and things like that. So you want to be mindful of that. But I know the sexy and the exciting thing to do is to pick individual stocks, whether it’s Tesla or Gamestop or Ford or whatever it is. But I think, you know — and again, not investment advice — but I think the more boring that you are with your investments, typically the better it is because the sexier and the, you know, the investment strategy is, typically the more speculative and the more expensive it is to the investor. So it could be as easy as putting it into an S&P 500 index or a total market index or things like that and call it a day. So there are some advisors that are colleagues of mine, they hear me talk about real estate investing and all of these other things, and I’ll say like, “Hey, this is the reason I believe that a lot of traditional advisors don’t say it is because it’s a function of income.” And sometimes, it’s — and I get a little pushback on that because I’m kind of criticizing my brethren, but it also could just be it’s a ‘Keep It Simple, Stupid’ approach, which I think for finances, it can go a long way. So you know, there is absolutely nothing wrong — I know we’re talking about small businesses and real estate — there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a 401k, an IRA, and a brokerage account and doing a damn good job of building wealth and living an intentional, wealthy life with those tools.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think to that point, Tim, like I would encourage our community, like lean into what you’re comfortable on. You know, I think sometimes there’s some FOMO of like, you know, oh, so-and-so is doing real estate investing or so-and-so owns their own business, and it’s cool and flashy, which you usually don’t see the other side of it all the time. But maybe that is a fit, maybe it’s not. But you know, learn about them, understand them, understand your risk tolerance — and maybe for many folks, it’s really leaning into maxing out traditional accounts, maybe opening some brokerage accounts. But perhaps those other things aren’t a good fit. And I agree with you, I’m seeing more and more pharmacists that seem to be interested in financial independence, early retirement, some combination of those, whether they love their job or maybe not. And I think this is where these tools, the brokerage account specifically, come into play. And last week, we interviewed Scott Rieckens, author of “Playing with FIRE,” Episode 188 for those that are interested in learning more about Financial Independence Retire Early. Tim Baker, great stuff. I think this really highlights for me, again, we’re only talking about here investing, one part of the financial plan. But within the investing bucket, we’ve talked about several different things that of course are traditional accounts and all of the nuances there and then beyond that, lots of decisions to be made, priorities to be balanced, and evaluations to be done. And I think this is a great opportunity to promote and shoutout our financial planning team and our lead planners that work directly with clients one-on-one to have these types of conversations, to look at what are the opportunities, what’s the goal, what’s the purpose, what’s the priority, and then ultimately, how do we put a plan in place to make sure that we achieve it over time? So for those that are interested in learning more about the comprehensive financial planning services we offer at YFP Planning, head on over to YFPPlanning.com. You can schedule a free discovery call, and we’d love to talk with you to see if our services are a good fit for what you’re looking for. And as always, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, please leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show each and every week. That’s going to help others find what we’re doing here over at YFP. Have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 188: Playing with FIRE: An Interview with Scott Rieckens

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Playing with FIRE: An Interview with Scott Rieckens

On this episode, sponsored by Insuring Income, Scott Rieckens, author of Playing with FIRE, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about his journey towards achieving FIRE. Scott digs into the ins and outs of the FIRE movement, why he and his wife decided to leave their friends and family in San Diego, how to calculate your early retirement number, and strategies for implementing your own FIRE plan.

About Today’s Guest

Scott Rieckens is an Emmy-nominated film/video producer, serial entrepreneur, and author. Scott has spent his career as a storyteller connecting people with ideas. Along the way, Scott’s work has generated millions of views through a feature-length documentary, multiple televisions series, short films, and a diverse range of commercial projects for Microsoft, NBC, Facebook, FOX, Taylor Guitars, BMW, WIRED and others.

Now, Scott has created Playing with FIRE, which explores the growing community of frugal-minded folks choosing a path to financial independence and early retirement. He and his family reside in Bend, OR.

Summary

When Scott Rieckens, author of Playing with FIRE and creator of the documentary Playing with FIRE, discovered FIRE (financial independence, retire early) a few years ago, it was life changing for him and his family. Achieving FIRE allows people to potentially retire decades earlier than they normally would, a dream that many think could never become a reality. There are some guidelines that allow people to reach this dream, like the 4% rule and 25x rule, however, Scott mentions that FIRE helps you learn habits that push you to save a lot more than you ever thought possible and gets you to start spending your money on things that align with your values. He says that if you start saving more than your spending, you can invest your money in index funds, max out tax advantaged accounts, and let compound interest take over.

Scott became interested in starting a journey towards FIRE after realizing that he wasn’t in control of his time and was spending more time working than he was with his family. With some calculations, Scott determined that if he saved 16% of his income he would retire in 33.4 years but if he saved 58% of his income he could retire in 11 years. He realized that his family was spending money frivolously and went on a quest to align their spending with their values to help reduce their expenses. To figure out his family’s core values, Scott and his wife, Taylor, independently wrote 10 things that provide happiness to them. They continued this exercise weekly and used it as a tool to reduce spending money on things that weren’t aligned with their values and created a budget around what makes them happy.

Scott also talks through how mental shifts can help you cut expenses, how to push yourself to save more money, how to calculate your early retirement number, and strategies for implementing your own FIRE plan.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Scott, welcome to the show!

Scott Rieckens: Thanks for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Really excited about this interview. As I mentioned before we hit record, I loved the book “Playing with FIRE,” couldn’t put it down, read it in about 24 hours. Loved the documentary. And I’m excited to get you in front of our community as I know this topic is something that is of interest, and I think your story as well as the broader conversation around FIRE is going to provide a lot of value. So thank you again for taking the time.

Scott Rieckens: Yeah, it’s my absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

Tim Ulbrich: So for those in our community that are hearing about FIRE for maybe the first or even second time, give us a high level overview. What exactly is the FIRE movement all about?

Scott Rieckens: So the FIRE movement, it’s — FIRE is an acronym that stands for Financial Independence, Retire Early. And I think it’s a community of people who are practicing sort of a preconceived set of principles so that they can put themselves in a position of financial independence, potentially retiring decades earlier than they would have expected with sort of the way we saw ourselves growing up. So you know, it’s sort of nebulous because there are certain rules that — well, there’s things like the 4% Rule that’s called a rule, but it’s really more of a guideline. And I kind of see many of the principles of FIRE being more of a guideline than a rule. So there’s no hard and fast rules in the FIRE movement. There’s probably not even a real movement yet. But I do think that we’re starting to see seeds of social change. And once, you know, once this can really hit mainstream to the point where we’re seeing social change predicated off of or because of the FIRE movement, then I think we can call it a movement. But for now, it’s fun to call it the movement because it helps those of us who are trying to make it a movement move along. But ultimately the idea is that you learn habits that help you save a lot more than you thought was possible or just really start spending according to your values and really taking a hard look at what those values are as it relates to your spending. And if you can start saving more than you’re making, well, we have a pretty tried-and-true investment strategy. You know, and again, it varies and they’re more guidelines. But in general, people like to invest the surplus in index funds and max out your tax advantaged accounts as much as possible. And then the beauty of compound interest takes over, and the next thing you know, you’re looking at a growing net worth, a growing portfolio, and before you know it, you might have enough to live off of for the rest of your life. So these were all foreign concepts to me three years ago. And then I heard a podcast with Mr. Money Mustache, who is one of the — maybe one of the modern founders of the FIRE movement — and he was discussing these things, and I had never heard of them. I always looked at investing as sort of this nebulous thing that I wasn’t too aware of and I would need a Master’s degree to even participate in. So I kind of brushed it under the rug. And then I heard about all these things, and it all sounded pretty easy to understand and pretty accessible, and it all made sense. And so that’s kind of how I got on the path to our FIRE journey.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And I love that you mentioned, Scott, guidelines because I think that it can feel perhaps if people are learning for the first time that it’s an exact science or somewhat legalistic in some regards. But as we talk about many parts of the financial plan, it comes down to customizing it to your personal situation, and everyone’s situation is different. So I think the guidelines, the principles, are really important. And one of those being — you mentioned the 4% Rule. Talk to us about what is the 4% Rule, and how does that impact one determines what their “FIRE number” is?

Scott Rieckens: Yeah, so the 4% Rule, like I said, more of a 4% Guideline, is a pretty incredible little assumption. And it’s that if you withdraw 4% off of your portfolio annually that — I think it’s something like you have a 96% chance of not running out of your principal investment portfolio over 30 years. And it’s based off of this thing called the Trinity Study. So another way to look at it is — the way I like to look at it is the 25x Rule. And so basically, you take your annual spending. Let’s say it’s $40,000 a year. And you multiply that by 25. And that is $1 million. And so basically, it gives you a way to figure out how much do I need to retire? So if your annual spending is x, you multiply x by 25, and that’s how much you need to retire because you’ll have a 96% chance of never running out of the principal investment portfolio that you have. So it’s a pretty darn safe assumption and guideline. Now, there are some people in the movement that are maybe talking about 3.75% or 3.5% is even safer, and that’s — you know, that all has to do with so many different parameters: your risk tolerance, if you plan to have sort of a side hustle or any kind of passive income or non-passive income into your “retirement years.” And those things can affect, you know, when you decide or what your percentage or when you decide to pull the trigger on your path to financial independence. But in general, I mean, I was starting from scratch. So I couldn’t have even told you how to understand what I need to retire or what that would even look like. And so to just call it the 4% Rule or the 25x and the way I just described it to you, like that’s pretty simple. It made sense to me. And it’s backed by some pretty credible studies. And like I said, there’s people in the movement who are far superior to me in intelligence who pick this stuff apart annually. And so this isn’t something that’s like oh yeah, a study way back in the day said this thing, so we’re all good. This is something that people are constantly scrutinizing. And it turns out what it’s all predicated on is the stock market over time just continues to grow. And so if you’re putting your investments into the stock market — and one of the safest bets you can make is investing in index funds because especially really solid index funds like let’s say Vanguard’s VTSAX, there are a whole team of people who are ensuring that the index of stocks are the highest performing stocks they can possibly have in that index, and it basically represents the growing stock market. So what’s nice about that is you can take a pretty reasonable growth average, and then you can start building models for what your future might look like. And like we have a retirement calculator on our website that, you know, basically bakes in all these principles into one little calculator, and you just plug in your own personal numbers and you can kind of see, oh, alright, you’re on the path, and this is how long it’s going to take you to reach financial independence. Taylor and I did this early, early on in our journey, and for Taylor, it was a huge eye-opener. It was for me as well, but I had gone through a lot of this stuff because I didn’t bring it all to her right away because it was a lot to bring because we were making a lot of interesting money decisions at that time, and there was a lot to unpack there to keep our relationship together while trying to also convince her to maybe join me on this crazy quest to pursue FIRE. But ultimately, you know, when we did the retirement calculator, at our current spending at that time, we were looking at — I think it was something like 40 years of additional work. And at that point, we were so burnt out by work, 40 years sounded like a life sentence. And it was something like we’d be working into our mid- to late 70s I want to say. And then I did some rearranging and said, OK, well if we cut our rent by this and we get rid of our two leased cars and we buy a used car for $8,000 or whatever it was, and we cut our food spending — we needed to cut that quite a bit, it was more than half, let’s say that — and then all these other extraneous things we’re doing, I mean, entertainment. The amount of money we were spending on entertainment was insane, especially where we lived where there was so much free entertainment all around us. And I started doing those numbers and kind of just built a pretty reasonable budget, and I re-entered that information into the retirement calculator to see that we were I think at that time, it was something like 10 years or something away from financial independence. I mean, to shave three decades off of your working career by just making smart money decisions, to me, that was a no-brainer. And it was a huge eye-opener because it wasn’t as if we were spending because we couldn’t help it. It wasn’t because — we weren’t spending because we have an insatiable consumeristic bent, you know?

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Scott Rieckens: We didn’t see ourselves that way at all. We kind of were that way, but we didn’t see ourselves that way. And so to just have that eye-opening realization and to get that in order and to do so with the guidance of a pretty strong community online where I could go for answers at any time and have some pretty compelling arguments on why I would want to do these things, it was a pretty quick and swift decision I think in the Rieckens household. And then we got busy sharing that story with the world because I’m a content creator by trade, and this story just seemed too important not to share.

Tim Ulbrich: And it was a great story to share. And for those that want to check out the retirement calculator as well as the other resources and learn more about the book, the documentary, PlayingwithFIRE.co, again, PlayingwithFIRE.co. And Scott, the math is really incredible. I pulled a note from the book. You had mentioned that when you first crunched the numbers using that retirement calculator, you determined you could retire in 34.3 years with a savings rate of 16%, which is a pretty good savings rate. And that was using $120,000 annual expenses, $22,000 in savings. And then the next calculation showed a drop from 34.3 years to 11 years if you could cut expenses in half and get to a savings rate of 58%. So I think that’s what I love about the way you teach this material, the way others teach this in the community, the 25x Rule or maybe it’s the 27x Rule, whatever that number is is that it helps shine a light on retirement numbers. It’s math, right? It’s a set of assumptions, and then you can look at things and determine, OK, what can I change? What might I not be able to change? What levers can I pull? What will have more impact? And then you’re off and running if that’s a goal that you want to pursue. And so I want to talk more about your story. And I want to read for a moment a segment from the book, Chapter 1 is Work, Eat, Sleep and Repeat. And you say this at the beginning of the chapter. You say, “If you’d driven by me on the freeway in San Diego on this particular Monday morning in Feb. 2017, you probably wouldn’t have looked twice. A guy in his mid-30s, sitting in traffic in a relatively new but unremarkable car, drinking a cold brew from Starbucks, just another American heading to work. In fact, there was nothing particularly special about that Monday morning, and I would have lumped it in with 100 other ordinary Monday mornings that I had spent navigating traffic on my way to work, except that on this particular morning, I heard an idea that would change the course of my entire life, an idea that would cause me to quit my job, leave California and spend a year traveling with my family, to question everything I thought I knew about success, money and freedom, to find the secret to the American Dream, the thing that most people crave but few achieve, the ability to do absolutely anything I wanted.” My question here is what caused this desire and feeling? And when did this begin?

Scott Rieckens: Man. I haven’t heard that back in awhile. That was fun. I think we all have an inherent desire for a certain sense of freedom and independence. And you know, I think — I can’t speak for everyone, but when I was in school, when I was in high school and then getting into college, I look back with sort of I think I had sort of a relentless optimism that work would be interesting and what I would do would be great and the things that would follow that, family and friends and all the things, you know, that they would carry me along the way. And I think as you start to get in — well, in my case, got into my mid-30s, I’d been working for a decade, some of those things came true. I got to achieve some goals I had set for myself. I had done some things I was proud of, had just started a family, which I was also immensely proud of. And all those things are fantastic, but they weren’t the entire picture of fulfillment for me because what was weighing me down was I wasn’t in control of my time. Next thing you know, I’ve built this family, I’ve got this job, but there’s no balance here. I have to be at my job more that I want to be and see my family less than I want to see them. I think that’s what it really boiled down to was just why don’t I have that control? And when it hit me, what really hit me was it was my own decisions, it was my own choices, our family’s own choices that were hindering us from having that control and having that freedom. And that’s something that had not connected for me. And you know, at the end of the day, for better or for worse, money is how the world operates. You know, this is how our social construct has been constructed. So what it really boils down to is can you earn money? And if so, how are you using it? And I just had not spent the time to consider those things. One of the taglines of this whole project is what if a happier life were a few simple choices away? And I think that’s ultimately — like that encapsulates what I had found, which was that there is a happier life a few simple choices away. That’s incredible. And then the next question that we kind of posed to ourselves was like, how far would you go for financial freedom?

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Scott Rieckens: You know? And that’s ultimately up to you. So that’s why I always say like, the FIRE movement is a set of guidelines, not rules. And the FIRE movement may or may not a movement, but there’s certainly a community of people who really appreciate the idea of spending less on extraneous things that don’t really bring you value and really being smart with your choices. And when you have a group of people that see it that way, it makes it a lot easier to do because I also remember having to unpack our life a bit. You know, there were a lot of — whether it was true or not, whether it was sort of a figment of our imagination or a reality, it felt daunting to suddenly take on a new identity, right? Because you have all of your friends and all of your family that see you one way and have gotten accustomed and used to the way you are. And to have to just kind of throw all that out and start fresh can be really daunting. And so it’s really helpful — you know, like never before were we able to just connect with people that see it this way that might have more information than you do and would happily share it for free instantly. That’s never really happened before, and I think that, like many things that the internet’s provided, it’s created a place where like-minded people can come together and learn from each other and grow something really quickly, grow a social movement very quickly. And right now, you know, Phase 1 of the FIRE whatever it is, to me is getting the word out. It’s improving financial literacy and realigning our world’s connection with what’s most important. You know, that’s a big, daunting task. It’s going to take a lot of time. But the best case scenario would be that Phase 2 is liberating a bunch of really smart, ambitious people from jobs that they may be apathetic at best about and liberate them to go pursue their favorite future. And what could that look like? And how could that change the world?

Tim Ulbrich: I love the way you’re thinking about that because I share that with you, Scott. What would that look like for our communities? What would that look like in terms of people maximizing their talent and their passions? And you know, we’re so passionate at YFP about if we can help put together a financial plan that allows people to pursue some of those goals, wow. I mean, game on in terms of what we could see in people getting the most of the talents that they’ve been getting. One of the things in the book that really resonated with me, as well as the documentary, which showcases the process that you and your wife Taylor worked through to get on a shared goal and path to pursue FIRE. And you mention this wasn’t easy. You know, you were obviously on board, ready to go, had been learning a lot of information and trying to get on the same page. But what I loved was in the book, in Chapter 3, you talk about an exercise where you and Taylor independently wrote down 10 things that provided happiness. And then you came together to share those lists. Why did you do that activity? And what did you glean from doing that?

Scott Rieckens: Yeah, I think, you know, looking back, it was a lot smarter decision that I think I knew it was at the time. But ultimately, you know, if we needed to align our values with our spending, it’s like, well, what are our values? And I think an easy way to decide is just think about what makes you happy. And you know, we did a happiness list predicated on a weekly basis. And it felt like the right time frame. Like if you do like on a daily basis, you’re going to get in the minutia of life and you might get too specific about the things that bring you happiness. And if you go too far out, you might get a little grand. It might be international travel or BMWs or whatever Taylor might have put on the list at that time. But a weekly basis, it’s like, what are you up to this week? And it’s like, well, I’ve got work, I’ve got this, I’ve got that. And what am I going to do to kind of inject some happiness along the way? Well, I’m going to go for a walk. I’m going to go for a bike ride. I’m going to maybe make a nice dinner this week or whatever it is. So it becomes that sort of like centered, realistic happiness list. So I really like the weekly timeframe. But yeah, we sat down and did that, and there’s a couple elements to it. One is I can’t decide for Taylor what makes her happy. And at that time, we were living in this beach community and were spending a ton of money to do so. And if the beach was on her list, and the lifestyle that that particular area provided was just swarming her list, then I had my work cut out for me. We would have to figure out a way to make that work because, you know, the idea of pursuing FIRE was not to go create a whole bunch of disruptive, diminished returns. Like I wanted to make sure that this was going to improve our lives. And so I needed to hear that from her. And she needed to consider it too because you can easily be reactionary when you think something’s about to be taken away from you. You can easily be reactionary when you’re being propositioned with something as drastic as maybe FIRE could be, and it was for us, of like having to — not having to, but maybe making the choice to move. That’s a big choice. Leave your friends behind, leave your jobs behind, like whatever you end up doing. And so yeah, I think you need to start with ultimately like, what are your values? And I think that was a way to do it. So that was critical. And it actually helped so tremendously because we didn’t even talk about money first. We talked about happiness. And I can’t recommend that enough. You talk about what matters to you the most. Then go work on a budget. Don’t work on a budget and never talk about happiness.

Tim Ulbrich: Amen.

Scott Rieckens: Or go the other way, you know, talk about your budget and then talk about happiness. Like how are you going to budget for things if you don’t know what you care about? You know, it was such a small but critical piece to our journey. And yeah, I can’t recommend it enough. Whether you decide to pursue FIRE or not, going through your Top 10 list of what makes you happy on a weekly basis quite often, maybe quarterly or biannually, is a damn good idea because it changes too. You know? We’re evolving beings, and we care more about things sometimes and care less about things other times. And those things should be reflected in your spending habits. So yeah, that was critical. And I got lucky in that scenario because she did not talk about her expensive car and she did not talk about the beach. And so that really was an opening to mutually discuss the potential for leaving. And that was ultimately I think what I would credit with why that was so successful.

Tim Ulbrich: And that was the sense I got when I read it, and it’s quoted here, you talk it all out. I hope our listeners take you up on that challenge to do it. I couldn’t agree more. And just as I reread some of these, it puts things into perspective really quick, right? I mean, I see things on here like, “Hearing my baby laugh,” you know, “Spending time having coffee with my husband,” “going for a walk,” “going for a bike ride.” And I think starting with those types of conversations around happiness and then getting into the budget and the plan and how we’re going to get there is so important. We taught this often with the financial plan of think about the goals, script your plan, and then we’ll get into the x’s and o’s because the x’s and o’s should be within the framework of the vision that we have, and that vision should ultimately derive back to how is money a tool related to deriving happiness? And by the way, Taylor nailed this when she had on here, “Wine, chocolate, and coffee.” Three of my favorite things. So she crushed that list.

Scott Rieckens: Yeah. Yeah. And I told her, look, we can buy all the wine, chocolate, and coffee you want if we take these steps on all the rest of it. And it’s worked.

Tim Ulbrich: So you mentioned the BMW, and I know that comes up throughout the book, but in all seriousness, when our listeners hear the timeframe I mentioned earlier, going from a projected retirement in 34 years down to 11 and how do you get there, you cut expenses and you increase savings. And obviously the next question is, well, how do you make dramatic cuts to expenses so you can increase your savings? So you mentioned food being one of them. You’ve alluded to the BMW. Were there other big-ticket items that were instrumental to you guys knocking down a big expense so you could get the momentum you needed?

Scott Rieckens: You know, specifically, housing, cars and food are typically the top three items that cost the most for an average family. So housing, cars and food are the No. 1 three things that I would recommend taking a hard look at, how you can get creative. Outside of those specific things, I think the thing that was the most important was the mentality, the mental shift and being on the same page because — and I can tell you this from three years of experience now. We’re not always rocking the FIRE train. You know, it’s not consistent. Like it can be consistent. We can go months, even years, where we’re on track. And then like COVID hit. And boy, one excuse after another just start popping in. Like oh, hell no. I’m doing this, I’m doing that. I’m buying this, I’m buying that. I don’t care. And I don’t regret it. We looked back at the New Year, during the New Year here, we looked back at 2020 and we said, “You know what? I think it’s better if we just don’t look at it. Let’s forgive ourselves for the decisions we made and let’s look forward because the good news is we already kind of built up the muscle, you know? We already worked out, we already know how to do this. And so let’s just keep — let’s just do it again.” And it’s amazing because it was literally a mental shift. We sat down to kind of plan out our 2021, a little vision board kind of afternoon. And it really came down to like, we wrote down the things that we wanted to shift from 2020 to 2021. And it was like, anytime we make a purchase, we talk to each other about it first, no matter how trivial because that will make us question our own decision on whether or not we need that thing and will be less about what I have to say to her and it’s more about what she has to say to herself. And it kind of prevents this reflexive, oh, it’s on Amazon, let’s grab it real quick, it’ll be here in two days, easy day, done. And that can get out of hand so quick, and so it was — and we’ve done things like that in the past, like put something in the Amazon cart and you have to keep it there for three days. If you come back in three days and you still want it, you can get it. We needed to go a little harder this time into this new year because 2020 was a dumpster fire. But again, it’s just like the best you can do is flex that mentality because we immediately got on the same page. We didn’t have to have the difficult discussion again. And I think we had the financial maturity finally to look at 2020 and say, there was a reason for those decisions. And we don’t need to sit here and relive them, we don’t need to make ourselves feel bad about them. And it did set us back a little bit on our FIRE journey. But we’re in good shape, and thank goodness because with the destruction of this year, I mean, how grateful and lucky are we that we found this when we did?

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Scott Rieckens: Imagine where we would be if we hadn’t. And imagine all the folks who are suffering through these difficult times, you know? And so we were able to look at that and go, OK, we’re super lucky. Let’s get back on track because it would be a real damn shame not to, considering everything we have, you know? It’s like, we can’t afford not to do the right thing here. So I hope that answers your question. I don’t like getting into the specific, specific things of how to cut budgets because it’s really personal. You know? You may live in a low cost of living area already with a budget that’s kind of maxing out. And you don’t know what to do, and that could be a matter of having to find ways to increase your income, negotiate a bigger salary, move to a better place — or not a better place but a place with better prospects for higher salaries in your job and then being more deliberate about what your costs are in that higher cost of living area so that you can reap the benefits of the higher pay but not have to also succumb to the higher living costs. You know, there are ways to do those things, the geoarbitrage stuff. But to me, that’s all the fun fine dining in the FIRE community. That’s all the stuff you can learn in the blogs and the podcasts and whatnot is all those very specific detailed minutia of how to really formulate your budget if you want to go hard. But to get started, I think the bigger challenge and the bigger quest is for people to align their values with their spending and start pushing themselves, you know? Taylor and I, we did something that I would recommend, actually. It was extreme in some cases, and I use that word kind of flippantly. I don’t know if it’s extreme, per se, but we — I mean, we did a lot of things very quickly. Within months, we literally packed up and moved our stuff to try to find a place that was cheaper to live, leaving behind a job. I quit my job to do this. And we left behind a whole set of friends and a whole culture that we had built for ourselves, you know? And we slashed all of our spending so hard that we ended up at our peak, we were at like a 76% or 78% savings rate, something in that range. It was extreme. We didn’t buy anything unless it was absolutely critical. And we started to get a little miserable, to be honest. Like it wasn’t fun, you know? And part of that was good, though, because we were ripping off the Band-Aid and showing ourselves how much retail therapy we were really doing. And it ended up being — that’s like such an old adage, but it’s like, you know, the best things in life are free and all that stuff. It’s like, yeah, and not only that but we were going to sushi dinners, let’s say, or just nice, fine dining dinners so often that I remember — I remember one time sitting down to a beautiful, amazing sushi dinner. And we were walking home from it, and I think our discussion was something along the lines of like, “Yeah, it was good, but I feel like last week’s was better.” And it was like, that’s horrible. That’s a horrible waste of money because if I’m comparing this amazing, decadent, unbelievable dinner that took — if you think about what it took to get that fish on that plate, it’s incredible.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Scott Rieckens: And I’m sitting here comparing it to last week’s. And it’s like, oh my gosh. And so to go through and really rip that Band-Aid off and go through the sort of “hardships,” you know, and then all of a sudden we haven’t eaten out in two or three months and then you go to a medium fancy restaurant, and it’s like heaven.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Scott Rieckens: It’s so amazing. And so it’s almost like it’s a weird hack where all of a sudden, you’re like, wait, I like this more now.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Scott Rieckens: Because I’m doing it less. And that’s when you can get into stoicism and all these various philosophies. And I don’t know, it’s just like our life started improving, even when it was more difficult. And that was an interesting paradox that ultimately, to bring this all back, is the reason why I suggest if people are interested in this and you decide to do it, to go hard at first because, you know, push yourself as hard as you can to see what your real — not your breaking point, but like, you know, your proverbial budget breaking point, see what that is and then work backwards from that. Don’t start where you are and incrementally try to improve because I just don’t think that’s going to be as effective, and you probably won’t stick with it, you know? But for us, to like go to 76-78% savings rates and be miserable and start going, OK, what are the things that we should add back in? And that was a deliberate decision. Next thing you know, we’re hitting like a 50% savings rate, which is incredible. And it feels easy. It feels luxurious. And it’s like, oh, this is it. This is awesome. How lucky are we. But we could have been doing the whole time if we had just made better decisions. And so yeah, I hope that helps.

Tim Ulbrich: It does. And the book and the documentary really takes the reader or viewer through your individual stories. And I also like in the book, you bring in other examples as I think that, again, back to the comment about customizing the scene, the different variations, helps give people ideas about how this might apply to their own individual situation. And one of the questions I have for you, Scott, is when I read the book, I really connected with you as a father of four young children. You discuss in the book the birth of your daughter in 2015 and how ultimately, you’d be pursuing this journey together as a young family. And I suspect many of our listeners are wondering, man, is this really possible? Is this lifestyle and this goal realistic with children? You picked up, you moved, you made some drastic cuts along the way. What advice or what thoughts would you give people surrounding pursuing FIRE while they have a young family?

Scott Rieckens: I don’t know that the children thing — the children thing’s tough because they are expensive little buggers, you know? They are. They’re going to “set you back” from your financial independence date.

Tim Ulbrich: Fact.

Scott Rieckens: But that’s ultimately a tradeoff — I’m sure you would agree with me — is well worth it.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure. Yes, absolutely.

Scott Rieckens: Nothing’s more important. I think for me, I look at it a little differently. It’s not, “Hey, guys, you’ve got some kids? Here’s a couple of trick to make it totally possible to do FIRE.” If you use kids as your excuse not to pursue FIRE, you’re not going to pursue FIRE, but it won’t be because of your kids. It’s because you have decided that that’s what you’ve — that’s what you’ve decided. You know? Don’t use the excuse of your kids. I’m here to tell you, I mean, I only have one, so I don’t have four. But — sorry about that. Gees. Good for you. Wow. Fighting the good fight. But you know, ultimately, we’ve got such a better plan for our financial future and her financial future because we’ve decided to make these choices. And I recognize that not everyone could tomorrow pick up and make the choice. But I assume, you know, your audience is probably in the camp that could make these choices. They just seem daunting. And that’s a great place to be. And so yeah, I wouldn’t use kids as an excuse. There are ways to — obviously there are hacks in everything we do when we spend money. And there are things that you think you need to spend money on that you don’t, you know? You can — just to be clear, I mean, you can buy the brand new Italian-made stroller. Or you can look on Facebook Marketplace or Craigslist and find a used one. It’s all the obvious tips and tricks. But what’s more impactful, in my opinion, is you look at that and you go, yeah, but for my baby, I want the best or for my baby, it needs to be this or that. And those are the types of things where if you’re really aligning your values with your spending, you may look at it a little bit differently after you really do some reading up on the FIRE movement and you understand why you’re spending and the decisions that you’re making. And the next thing you know, you go from only the best for my baby to only the best for my baby and what that entails is not a brand new, Italian-made stroller. It is buying the budget stroller because the amount of money that we can save by doing that will ultimately lead to that child’s college fund or our ability to spend more time with that kid, which will then allow that child to grow better, have a better relationship with their family, with their parents, get more attention and so on and so forth. I mean, these shifts are exponential. The compound interest does not just take over on the money. Yeah, that’s how I would look at it. It’s not a matter of you’ve got kids, here’s five budget tips to help with FIRE when you have kids.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Scott Rieckens: It’s, you have kids? Don’t use them as an excuse to pursue financial independence, which will ultimately benefit everyone in your family.

Tim Ulbrich: And speaking of daunting, many of our listeners, Scott, unfortunately are facing big-time student loan debt. For those that came out of pharmacy school in 2020, about $175,000 is the average, $175,000. So maybe this goes in the excuse bucket, maybe not, but obviously big student loan debt, granted they have a decent income to work with. But what are the thoughts for folks that have big mountains of student loan debt? Obviously that’s a barrier, but is something that others are facing. What have you heard from your experience? And what advice or thoughts do you give folks that are looking at student loan debt but want to pursue a path towards financial independence?

Scott Rieckens: First of all, I have the utmost empathy for people that have that kind of a mountain of debt. And you know, the hope is that that debt was an investment in an education that’s going to give you the ability to pay off that debt and ultimately be even better off for it in the long run. And so with that in mind, nothing changes about my advice or the way I see it because if you have debt, as insurmountable as it may feel, that is ultimately just one barrier in the way of financial independence. And so I guess instead of starting from $0 and then starting to build your net worth, you’re starting from negative and starting to build your net worth. Either way, I would say if you have that amount of debt, you should consider it and treat it as an emergency and a crisis. And people with that situation should absolutely pursue FIRE, at the very least to get themselves out of that debt and starting at $0, you know? And what you do see oftentimes is people that I’ve seen, I’ve seen it, I’ve seen it with my own eyes, I’ve talked to people that did these things and then pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, got the FIRE thing going, and pulled themselves out of this situation. You still have all of these choices. And a lot of times, you’ll see you’ve got this mounting pile of debt, but you have a nice income, and the debt only costs x amount a month, so I’m going to lease this new vehicle, I’m going to get this nice house because I worked so hard to become this profession and now that money’s coming in, so this is what we’re going to do. And all of this boils down to still is choices. It’s those choices. Hey, I’m going to buy a used vehicle with cash that I saved up, and I’m going to eliminate these monthly payments. And those monthly payments are going to go to fund our 401k’s and our Roths. Or if you have a mountain of debt, we are going to pay off that debt as voraciously as we possibly can to get ourselves in a better position, you know? I don’t know, the advice doesn’t change. If anything, it becomes louder if you have a mountain of debt. And that’s a non-empathetic but realistic way to look at it. And another thing I should say is one of the prominent people in the FIRE movement, his name’s Johnathan Mendanza, he’s a cohost of Choose FI, he was a pharmacist.

Tim Ulbrich: Pharmacist.

Scott Rieckens: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Scott Rieckens: And he walked away from a job about a year after finding FIRE because he realigned his spending with his values, he got right, he got on a good track, and then he built what was originally a fun side hustle into something that could sustain him. And he chose a different path than pharmacy. And I’m not suggesting people need to do that. Some people may love their jobs. And by the way, the whole retire early thing? Let’s not get caught up on it. It happens all the time. You may like your job. Great. This is still for you because if you enjoy your job but you have the freedom and flexibility if conditions change, that’s still a win-win. You know?

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Scott Rieckens: Ultimately, it’s about gaining back your freedom of choice.

Tim Ulbrich: Couldn’t agree more. I think financial independence is a goal we all should strive for. And I think that should resonate with folks, whether they love what they do every day, they don’t, or somewhere in between. And I want to again point our community to both the documentary, “Playing with FIRE,” as well as your book, “Playing with FIRE.” I can’t say enough about both of those, what they’ve meant to me, the impression they’ve left on me and my wife, Jess. “Playing with FIRE,” the documentary will be available on Amazon, iTunes, Google Play, Vimeo or folks can pick up the DVD at PlayingwithFIRE.co. Storytelling is outstanding, it was named a Top 10 Best Finance Movies of the Decade by U.S. News. It includes a cast of personal finance and FIRE all stars, including Mr. Money Mustache, Vicki Robbins, who’s the author of “Your Money, Your Life,” The Minimalists, the Mad Scientist, Jonathan Brad from Choose FI and more. And then the book, you know, we’ve just scratched the surface here and there’s much more to learn in the book, including the seven steps to achieving FIRE, where to learn more about FIRE and the FIRE community, how to crunch your own FIRE numbers, many FIRE stories, and much more. And that is readily available wherever you normally purchase your books. So Scott, thank you so much again for taking time to come on the show. What is the best place for our listeners to go to learn more about you and the work that you’re doing?

Scott Rieckens: Thanks, Tim. Yeah, PlayingwithFIRE.co, it’s got it all. I’m a big fan of Twitter, so we’re on Twitter @playingwithfireco, and we’re on Instagram as well. So yeah, those are the places you can find us. And hope to see you there.

Tim Ulbrich: Great stuff again, Scott. And on behalf of the YFP community and our team, thank you so much for taking the time.

Scott Rieckens: Thanks, Tim.

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YFP 187: How to Maximize Your Student Loan Strategy While Federal Student Loan Payments are Paused

Posted on by yfpadmin

How to Maximize Your Student Loan Strategy While Federal Student Loan Payments are Paused

On this episode sponsored by LendKey, Kelly Reddy-Heffner, YFP Lead Financial Planner, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk through how those with federal student loans should be maximizing their student loan repayment strategy during another extension of administrative student loan forbearance.

About Today’s Guest

Kelly is a Lead Planner at YFP. She enjoys time with her husband and two sons, riding her bike, running, keeping after her pup ‘Fred Rogers’. Kelly loves to cheer on her favorite team, plan travel and ironically she really loves great food but does not enjoy cooking at all. She volunteers in her community as part of the Chambersburg Rotary. Kelly believes that there are no quick fixes to financial confidence, no guarantees on investment returns, but there is value in seeking trusted advice to get where you want to go. Kelly’s mission is to help clients go confidently toward their happy place.

Summary

Kelly Reddy-Heffner, YFP’s newest Lead Financial Planner, breaks down what we know and don’t know about student loans right now, her process for helping financial planning clients navigate their student loans, how to choose a repayment plan, and whether borrowers should refinance their student loans when payments resume.

Kelly explains that things are changing rapidly when it comes to student loan payments resuming. While there is a lot that we don’t know about student loans right now, we do know that the most recent stimulus package didn’t include an expansion to the administrative forbearance, interest rates are still low but are starting to slightly increase, and that President Biden’s transition team announced that they would extend the student loan payment and interest freeze when he takes office, although we don’t know when that will be.

While there are many unknowns for the future of student loans, Kelly urges borrowers to get a clear picture of their debt, look at potential opportunities for forgiveness, and think about their capacity for repayment and the opportunity cost of other financial goals. Kelly explains that there are a lot of factors that go into deciding which student loan repayment strategy is best, like the borrower’s budget, behavior, and mindset and that while student loans are an important piece of the financial plan, they can’t be looked at in a silo.

To help pharmacists determine how to best tackle their student loans, YFP offers a one-on-one student loan analysis. In the student loan analysis, one of our certified financial planners works with you to evaluate which repayment option and strategy is best for your situation. They’ll help you inventory your loans, analyze the debt, give recommendations, calculate repayment amounts with different options, provide insight on whether consolidating or refinancing is necessary, and offer next steps to you.

Visit www.yourfinancialpharmacist.com/studentloananalysis to learn more about this service.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, everyone. Tim Ulbrich here. And before we jump into today’s show with YFP lead planner Kelly Reddy-Heffner to discuss considerations while federal student loan payments are still paused, we want to make sure you have the most up-to-date information. We recorded this episode last week, but today, Jan. 20, 2021, there was an executive order signed by President Biden on his first day in office related to student loans. President Biden has directed the Department of Education to extend the administrative forbearance on qualifying federal loans through Sept. 30, 2021. Prior to today’s news, the freeze on payments and interest accruing was set to expire at the end of this month. So stay tuned to this show and updates in the YFP Facebook group for continuing discussion on the implications of this news to those that have federal loans and were waiting to hear whether or not payments would restart in February. As we talk about on the show today, now is the time, while this administrative forbearance period continues, to weigh all of the repayment options and strategies and determine the one that is best for your personal situation so that you can hit the ground running with a solid plan come October 2021. And of course, for those with private loans and non-qualifying federal loans, there is no reason to wait on making that decision. Alright, let’s jump into today’s show. Kelly, welcome to the show.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Thanks, Tim. Thanks for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, I’m excited for this episode. And I sense our listeners are eager as well, considering the topic as well as the times. And before we jump into talking about student loans and important considerations for borrowers given the current situation, let’s do a proper introduction of you to the YFP community. We’re ecstatic to have you as a part of the YFP team as our newest lead planner. And I know our clients and community will benefit greatly from your insights and from your expertise. So tell us a little bit about yourself, your career path into financial planning and ultimately becoming a Certified Financial Planner.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Thank you. Yeah. So I’m really happy to be a part of the YFP team and of course to be on the podcast today. So I actually started out after getting my MBA working in continuing education for pharmacists. So I did that for a number of years. I loved it. But my husband, who is also a healthcare professional, we always seemed to have a ton of questions about our money and how to manage our finances. So we had pursued getting some expert assistance. But I’ll be honest, we were not considered great clients. You know, we had student loan debt, we were just starting retirement accounts. So to answer all of our endless burning questions, I went back to school, got my CFP, started a business. I wanted to really help other people like myself understand their big money decisions. So I knew of Tim Baker through our planning network for financial planners. I saw a job post, piqued my interest even though I wasn’t looking for a job, and the rest is history. YFP is the perfect mix of my interests. So I’m really happy to be a part of the team.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, we’re excited to have you. And I never want to take for granted someone’s willingness to come on and do a podcast. So I appreciate you being both interested and willing to do this. And knowing you’ve been working with many of our clients already, even since you joined us, on student loans and given the news that seems to be changing daily at the moment around this, we wanted to dig back in on this topic, knowing we’ve got some new information that is obviously timely that we want to make sure our community and of course our clients are aware of as well. So we, of course, have talked about student loans on the podcast a lot. And for those that have been listening for some time, you know that. But as I have alluded to, we’re in a unique situation, and the time that warrants us to revisit this topic here in January 202. And as we’ll talk about, depending on what the Biden administration does or perhaps doesn’t do regarding student loans, there’s a lot that we don’t know right now about the future of student loan payments, about interest rates, about possible loan cancellation or not, possible expansion of Public Service Loan Forgiveness, but we want to make sure that no matter what the next steps are with federal student loan repayments, that you are prepared, that you’re confident in understanding and evaluating those options, and you’re ready to tackle them with an intentional plan. I keep telling folks, this is the perfect time, while we’re in this time period of the administrative forbearance, now is the time to tidy up your student loan repayment plan to make sure that you’re ready to hit the ground running when that administrative forbearance ends, whenever that would be, so you feel confident in walking into the next steps as it relates to your student loans. So Kelly, at the time that we’re recording this, mid-January 2021, what do we know and what do we not know about federal student loan payments and interest rates?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Yeah, absolutely. And I agree with you, Tim, like this is a perfect time to really think about these issues. So what we do know is over the past 10 months, we’ve had a federal student loan forbearance where folks have had $0 payments, 0% interest accumulated. We know that the stimulus package that was recently passed did not include a provision to expand student loan relief. We know just from our client base and again, from my own personal experience, we know student loan debt is a huge issue, especially for healthcare professionals. So we know that interest rates have been incredibly low over the past several months, but we know that they’re starting to creep up a bit as well. We know that Biden’s transition team has announced that they’ll extend the payment and interest freeze, which was set to expire on Jan. 31. So those are the things that we know. But then there’s a lot that we don’t know as well. So we don’t know exactly what that expansion means. We don’t know, you know, for how long. We don’t know if there’s also going to be a $10,000 forgiveness, that has been discussed. I would anticipate an expansion, an extension of that $0 payment, 0% interest, to probably be for about six months. I’m not taking any bets or wagers, and I know the timing’s going to be pretty amazing for whether I’m right or wrong, we’ll know pretty quickly. I don’t think the $10,000 is quite as likely, but that has been discussed. So we don’t know how much interest rates will increase or change in 2021 either. It’s harder — that is harder to predict, I think. I think rates will rise but slowly. So I was looking at some data from Credible, and I could see the average variable rates for, using an example of like refinancing for student loan debt, five-year term, borrowers with good credit, like 720 or higher, so it was a record low of 2.75% in June. And then we’re seeing like 3.26% in December. So we know the rates have come up some. I think that it’s really important to also say we don’t know the continued impact of the pandemic on jobs, payroll, and income security either. So we know some things, but there’s a lot more that we don’t know.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, great synopsis, Kelly. And I agree with your I guess projections, we could call them. And I want to be clear to the listeners, as you have, some of what we’re talking about, it’s changing so quickly. And as you mentioned, there’s a lot of things we don’t know. You know, we’re expecting to see that extension happen, how long, nobody knows the answer to that. Hopefully we will know very soon. As you mentioned, there’s been discussion around some debt cancellation. I agree with you, probably unlikely for a variety of reasons. But again, time will tell. But we do know that we’ve seen an increase in rates that’s happening, which presents an interesting question on where refinance does or doesn’t fit. We’ll come back to that here in a moment. So you know, my question, Kelly, as I hear you talking about that, putting myself in the shoes of a listener who’s perhaps facing $150,000-200,000 of debt, they’ve enjoyed this time period of administrative forbearance, perhaps able to put that money towards other goals such as paying down credit card debt or beefing up their emergency fund, or some other things. And now the question is, you know, what do I do going forward? And so as you’re working with clients that are coming on board as client of YFP Planning and they’re in this situation today, how do you approach coming up with a game plan to tackle the debt, especially given the current situation and the unknown future? What does this process look like?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Sure. I mean, we start out with just a basic, you know, objective of figuring out where are we at with this? So we want to have a clear picture of the debt. Is it federal, private? What is their employment type? Are they working for a for-profit organization? A non for-profit? Is there an opportunity for forgiveness? And then we’re looking at importantly, their capacity for repayment and what are the opportunity costs of repayment versus just like you referenced, some of those other goals: paying down credit card debt, some other important financial issues. So we really do need to look at a client’s unique circumstance and their perspective on repayment. There are a lot of factors to consider.

Tim Ulbrich: And when we’re thinking about paying back loans, especially after the administrative forbearance, obviously it’s a good idea to check in, take stock of the loans that one has, understanding their interest rates, understanding the loan servicer that they’ll be working with to repay those loans. So talk us through more of the process of how you help folks get a snapshot of what their current situation is.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Yeah, absolutely. So it is always a good idea to be taking a look at where your student loan debt is, even if you had a plan in place or you’re just starting out. The management of our financial resources, they change with different things that happen. You know, the stimulus certainly changed how you might have been planning to repay the debt. So we start with some basics, you know, studentaid.gov is a good resource, a borrower’s credit report, and then we can see what debt is outstanding. You know, it’s challenging at the moment. Studentaid.gov is defaulting to $0 payment, 0% interest. So sometimes, we need to dig a little deeper and see some of those earlier loan documents. But before the CARES Act, you know, hopefully folks have some information on file to help us with that. But the recognition of the debt is a key step in taking control of the situation. Debt can be very overwhelming, so we have to recognize it for what it is and then get to work. So again, borrowers often have a good idea that hey, we have a significant student loan debt issue, but they’re not quite sure of the details. Borrowers have increased their knowledge thanks in part to podcasts like ours, and we have some other great resources available as well. We have some books and additional materials. But a good strategy is the baseline knowledge. But a great strategy is in the details of the payment type, the interest rate, decisions to consolidate or refinance, and that’s where a borrower may be challenged to differentiate between the details. A full inventory definitely is the first step. And although it’s a bit cumbersome, it’s critical to understanding what your best options are.

Tim Ulbrich: And I love what you said there, Kelly, you know, debt can feel overwhelming. We have to recognize it for what it is and then get to work on a plan. You know, thinking back to my own personal journey, it’s almost like you’ve got to open up the closet and see the scary monster before you’re ready to address, you know, the situation. Like and I think it’s easy sometimes to say, let’s sweep it under the rug. I’d rather not just think about this. Often when I work with student pharmacists on this and we do a session where we have them inventory their loans or other things, there’s that moment of like, do I really want to know? Do I really want to know what I’m dealing with? But you’ve got to be able to uncover that and obviously as you referenced, the inventory is so important to then be able to determine what might be the best student loan repayment plan and path heading forward. So once folks have that inventory, once they know what they’re working with, once they have that snapshot, the question then is where do you start? So what are the main payoff strategies, Kelly, that folks have to think about when paying off their student loans, at least in terms of staying in the federal system?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Absolutely. So you’re right, I mean, once you’ve pulled the Band-Aid off, which is both a, you know, hopefully a bit of a cathartic episode, you know, here we go. We know what we have to work with. Then it, you know, we’re looking at a couple different things. We start out by figuring out does the person, the borrower, qualify for PSLF or non-PSLF forgiveness? Is that an option? I also think it’s really important to understand does the borrower have the financial capacity to repay the loans at the current rate? Or are they already struggling with the repayment with other things that are going on? We definitely have to take note of that. Then we’re looking, you know, are they in the right repayment plan to accomplish income-driven repayment and/or forgiveness. If the payments are affordable and folks are really comfortable with the payment amount, then we start looking, well hey, can we create a strategy where maybe you can accelerate the repayment? Maybe you do need to think about a refinance. So yeah, we’re right off the bat just looking at those high-level things to get started.

Tim Ulbrich: And so just as you mentioned there, you know, a few different options: PSLF, non-PSLF forgiveness, we’ve talked about these on the show before. You know, thankfully I think because many of our listeners have been following for awhile, we can throw around terms like IDR and income-driven repayment, people know what we’re talking about. But even beginning to think of those, there’s so many options, right, that people have to consider. We haven’t even yet talked about the refinance on the private side. So the million-dollar question is, how do you when working with an individual, how do you help them determine which strategy is going to be the best one for their personal situation?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: I am going to get a little bit of heck for saying, it depends. So that’s our famous standard statement in the financial planning industry. But it really does. I mean, we can’t undervalue the role of a budget and the mindset of our borrower in determining the strategy. But we also are looking at opportunity cost as well. So in a prior podcast, Tim Church had alluded to that. He was saying he and his wife were thrilled to pay off the debt, but then he had some thoughts like, what if? and wasn’t sure he had taken the best path to being debt-free. So being debt-free in general is a great outcome. But then we start asking the questions, what if a borrower with $120,000 salary and $200,000 in federal debt, what if they could make payments in income-driven repayment, qualify for a non-PSLF forgiveness, save for the tax bill at the end — which by the way, has also been discussed as something that maybe this administration will do away with.

Tim Ulbrich: Correct.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Yeah, what if they could increase their savings and pay off credit card debt and have a pretty decent nest egg in 20 years? So then we start thinking like, well, what really is the best strategy for clients? And again, it is very individual. With private loans, the decision points are just so much more, you know, easily digestible: lower interest rate, highest affordable payment, get it done. With the federal loans, we see a lot more nuances and they become more difficult to sort through. When you’re on track for forgiveness, there’s no benefit to making extra payments, it’s hard to see the balance remain the same or even increase. It goes against the pull we feel to get rid of the debt as quickly as possible. But we really do need to look at what is the best overall picture for a client to have both now and down the road as they make these decisions.

Tim Ulbrich: And I think that’s a good segue, you know, Kelly, when you mentioned in the private system, the decision points are much easier. You’re evaluating interest rates, trying to get the lowest interest rates, highest affordable payment, and you get done. And so I think that really warrants the discussion of am I pursuing forgiveness or not? Because if you think about this as a decision tree, if I make that decision that PSLF or non-PSLF forgiveness is in play, then obviously you’re staying in the federal system. If not, well, now we’re going to begin to evaluate private options in terms of refinance. Let’s talk about forgiveness, specifically PSLF for a moment. What makes this strategy appealing? And we’ve talked about it before of course before on the show of some of the logistics and some of the potential concerns, so what makes it appealing? And should pharmacists take advantage of it? Or is there a time when someone should steer clear of it?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Absolutely. Great question. I mean, PSLF is a good option for borrowers who are working in nonprofit sector with Adjusted Gross Income and payment protections where it looks like there will be an amount to be forgiven at the end. So they’re working towards those 120 payments, but it is a process. You know, we talk about that in our student loan analysis, just the paperwork, and it is a very specific process. Borrowers who have an Adjusted Gross Income that will significantly increase over time or an overall amount of debt where very little will be forgiven, it may not be ideal. So of course, we say for those who are looking for the program or thinking about being in that program, if you are thinking about going into for-profit at some point, you should proceed with caution. Again, the balance of the loan will likely not decrease in PSLF, so after five years of nonprofit work, if you decide to switch to for-profit, you’re potentially looking at a similar student loan debt liability even though five years have passed. Unfortunately, there’s no half credit, you know, for half the payments. So you know, if you’re thinking about that, it may not be the ideal route to go.

Tim Ulbrich: Great point. Worth reiterating. There is no half credit for half the payments. So important as people think about choosing that option. So Kelly, then what about non-forgiveness options, a.k.a paying it back. What are the options that are here?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Absolutely, going old school. Yes. What if we just paid them back? So for borrowers with federal loans, you know, they’re really weighing that lowest interest rate versus the federal loan protections. So this year — often in the past, when we talked about the federal loan protections, it was this idea just kind of floating out there. But this year, we see exactly what that means to have some of those protections. So we’ve seen a couple different things going on, but if borrowers were financially able to still make payments or increase payments this past year, they maybe should consider refinance in the future. So the current 0% rate is literally impossible to beat at the moment, right? So but I do feel like there’s a little bit of a growing thought of like FOMO, the Fear of Missing Out. Like I’ve got 0% now with federal, but I know private lenders, you know, are maybe in the 2-3% range. I don’t want to miss that refinance rate when the 0% is done. But again, a lot of planning is finding that unique balance between what we know, what we anticipate in the future, and then what we’re willing to do to accomplish our goals. So everything is a tradeoff for sure.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and as you mentioned early on, we’re coming up at the time we release this episode, we might even have more information at that time, but obviously we expect some announcement that would come out that would give us an indication on if that’s going to be extended in terms of the 0% rate and if so, for how long. And that will give us an important piece of information in the planning process. And to that point, you know, since the CARES Act was established and the administrative forbearance was extended twice, I think many pharmacists — as you’ve alluded to here briefly — have been wondering if they should or shouldn’t refinance their loans. And I think this warrants some brief discussion on refinancing, again, as we use this time period to really take a close look at our repayment options and plan. So just remind our community, what is refinancing? And what ultimately is the goal when somebody refinances loans?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: So yeah, refinancing is a very — what I like to say a private loan term because we’re talking about moving from a federal loan to a private loan. And it is a one-way transaction. So once you’ve made the decision to go from federal to private, that’s it. You can’t move back to the federal loan. It’s also a reference point for moving from one private loan to another. So if you have a private loan and you want to refinance, you’re moving into another private loan, the purpose in my opinion is always related to improving your interest rate or the term of the loan. Maybe it’s to remove a cosigner. But the purpose of that refinance is nearly always a better interest rate and maybe you’re decreasing the amount of time that you’re paying the loan.

Tim Ulbrich: And so overall, just given the time that we’re in, what’s your take on refinancing? Is it something that should or shouldn’t be done? When is it OK to start refinance again? And of course, I need to say — although it should be assumed — that of course this is an individual both consideration and determination. But generally, how are you considering refinancing in the moment?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Sure. I mean, as you said, it is a very individual, unique decision to be made. And I use the example, if a borrower has a $120,000 salary and $150,000 in federal loans, they’re likely not on a trajectory to have any debt forgiven. So then it makes sense to consider a refinance. But as you mentioned earlier in the intro, we really are in a unique environment at present. So if, you know, if by the end of January, I learn that I have 0% interest extended for six more months and that $10,000 forgiveness amount is still floating out there, I think I need to continue in the federal program and I watch the interest rates in the private sector. Ideally, our borrowers are making payments to lower the principle balance to take full advantage of that 0%. So again, if you’re in PSLF or non-PSLF forgiveness, making those payments is not really a great strategy. But if you are just paying down the debt, you know, I’d love to see our borrowers be in a position to take advantage of that 0% and like I said, keeping an eye on those interest rates in the private sector.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and one of the things, Kelly, that I have an eye out for is I think given the circumstances that those who had already refinanced before the CARES Act, as they all know too well and we know were left out of the administrative forbearance because there wasn’t any protections or benefits that those were in the private system, I wonder if that’s going to have people second-guessing refinancing as a move going forward, even if through the analysis and mathematically it’s the better move to make. And so that takes me to the question of what considerations should people be thinking about before refinancing their loans and what differences there are between the federal and the private system and what they may or may not be giving up.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: So right, outside of those working towards any forgiveness, I think the biggest consideration is that federal protection, which we’ve seen highlighted this year and what that impact could be. You know, there is a lack of flexibility with borrowers in the private sector where they don’t have the same income-driven repayment options. So if you have a job loss, you know, it can be a little bit different of a process to navigate that. Some of the private sector companies have gotten better with that. Really, if you’re looking at interest rates too, which is a big consideration, you know, if I can reduce my interest rate from like 4.8% to 2.8% on a $200,000 loan debt, you can save some money for sure. So I use the example, in five years, you could save $10,000 in interest. Over 20 years, it’s $30,000. So interest is a major consideration. But again, we’re always looking to see what really is the best strategy. I like the 0%. I like making a dent in my principle and any accrued interest if I’m not working for forgiveness. And then I’m still, like I said before, keeping an eye on those private interest rates to see how their movement is going. And of course, we’re going to keep updating folks on this topic because we know it’s super important.

Tim Ulbrich: Great insights, Kelly. And I think as we have spent the better part of 20 minutes or more really zooming in on student loans, I feel the need to zoom out. One of the things that I say often on this show and to our prospective clients and to people in the community is you can’t just look at one part of your financial plan in a silo. And this includes analyzing your student loans and determining a plan to pay them off. So what else do folks need to consider? What else do they need to weigh and keep in mind when deciding what their game plan is going to be?

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Yeah, Tim, you are absolutely right. I mean, the past several months have been a really unique opportunity to have a bird’s eye view of an individual student loan debt burden, not counting those working towards forgiveness and what they were able to accomplish in the past several months. So we have seen the following or some combination of the following: We have borrowers who are in a financial place to take full advantage of that 0% and they continued to make payments, resulting in a bigger impact on principle. But we’ve also seen folks who have used this time to make payments on things that were still accruing interest, which is great too. So they have paid down other debts. But then we also have situations where borrowers who have had employment challenges, are struggling financially, and they could not do either. So this helps give us a really clear idea of what a borrower might be able to accomplish in 2021 and if a refinance is viable. So we’re still looking at employment status and security. You know, we still have folks who have changes in their job and income and need to navigate through that. What other debt do they have? What is cash flow looking like? And then what are other financial priorities? I can’t say enough too, like borrower behavior and perspective on the loans is a major — a major component. You know, if someone’s really motivated, then we’re having those conversations to really look at things and say, what can we accomplish? But again, these are all pieces. We can’t look at one piece of the financial plan without looking at others.

Tim Ulbrich: I’m so glad, Kelly, you mentioned borrower behavior and perspective. We often say it’s the math plus how you feel about the debt, right? You’ve got to consider the numbers and look at the options and make sure you understand what would be coming out of pocket, what you’d be paying each month, how much interest you’d be paying, what would be forgiven. But you have to also layer on top of that, you know, how do you feel about the debt? How does your significant other or spouse feel about the debt? And how might that or might it not impact the direction that you take with your repayment plan? And so as we wrap up here, and you’ve provided incredible insights and obviously are well versed in this topic, it dawns on me that there are just as we said at the beginning, so many individual considerations, so many nuances to student loans, unfortunately a system probably more complicated than it needs to be. But when we’re dealing with six figures of student loan debt or more, many of our clients are north of $150,000-200,000, we know that the median indebtedness for today’s graduate is now north of $170,000, and so the decision between Path A, B, C and keep going on can be the difference easily of tens of thousands of dollars. And so we need to invest the time to understand these options, we need to invest the time to evaluate what those options are and to feel good about choosing the best path forward that is that for one situation, which takes me to our student loan analysis, which is a service I mentioned at the front end of this episode of something that we offer at YFP. It’s a one-on-one service intended to help folks really understand, evaluate, determine their best repayment option going forward. But what we haven’t talked about before on the show, Kelly, is what folks can expect through that service if they were to sign up. So talk to us about what you do as you work with a client through a student loan analysis and ultimately what the deliverable of that is.

Kelly Reddy-Heffner: Yeah, absolutely. And I view this as a next step from all the knowledge that we’re acquiring in podcasts and reading our book and becoming more knowledgeable and of course, you know, recognizing that this is a significant issue. Then we’re looking at a very personalized, like you said, one-on-one. We’re doing the inventory of the loans, we’re going to provide an analysis with recommendations for next steps. Part of that process looks at payment amounts and projections, whether a consolidation or refinance makes sense. We ask clients to provide a budget amount so that they can give some input into how much they can afford to put towards this effort. I think one of the best things about this is it really gives clients a clear estimate of what to expect. But in an awesome way, it gives people a lot of confidence. Like having a plan where they can put it into action, you know, put these pieces of the puzzle in place, and then start focusing on some other aspects of their financial goals, I hear a lot of reaction like, reduces stress, increases confidence, just feeling good that there’s a plan. And you know, maybe down the road, you need to revisit the plan. But there’s something in place to get you started.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, absolutely. And what I sense and hear from folks often, Kelly — and I’m sure you do even more than I — is that just having — even if the debt number isn’t going to move, right, at least for the short term, you know, $200,000 of debt is $200,000 of debt. But it’s a different feeling when you have momentum and peace of mind knowing that you’ve evaluated the options, you’ve applied them to your personal situation, and you feel confidently in the plan, in the plan that you’re pursuing going forward and so that you can begin to focus on other financial goals. So I think it’s an important point to mention not to underestimate the peace of mind that can come with this as well. So for those that are interested, you can schedule your student loan analysis by visiting YourFinancialPharmacist.com/studentloananalysis, all one word. Don’t wait as I think now, as we’ve been talking through the show, is the perfect time to get your loan repayment plan in place or to get a second opinion on a strategy that you’re currently utilizing. And for a limited time, we’re going to be sending a copy of our three YFP-published books. That would be “Seven Figure Pharmacist,” “A Pharmacist’s Guide to Conquering Student Loans,” and “Baker’s Dirty Dozen: Principles for financial independence” to anyone that signs up and purchases a student loan analysis by the end of January. So we want to get the tools and resources in your hands, not only to attack student loans but also to continue to progress with your financial plan in 2021. So again, YourFinancialPharmacist/studentloananalysis. You can purchase the analysis there, sign up for a time right away with Kelly to get that going. And as always, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, please leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show each and every week. We appreciate you joining us, and we hope you have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 185: 10 Financial Moves to Make in 2021

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10 Financial Moves to Make in 2021

Tim Ulbrich talks through 10 financial moves to make in 2021. It’s time to turn the page on 2020 and start 2021 off the right way and that’s with an intentional plan.

Summary

The start of a new year brings an opportunity to reflect, reset, and start fresh. It’s also an incredible time to dig into your finances and become really intentional with your 2021 financial plan. Tim Ulbrich talks through 10 financial moves you should consider in 2021 and how to make them happen.

Here are the 10 financial moves you should consider for 2021:

Simplify and clarify your goals for the year
Revisit the big questions and discussions with your spouse
Take advantage of any low hanging fruit to get a win or two and gain some momentum
Put your goals on automatic…and get out of the way!
Revisit your student loan game plan
Take your tax strategy to the next level
Button up the insurance part of your financial plan
Evaluate where real estate may or may not fit into your financial plan and goals
Update your legacy folder
Set your learning plan
BONUS: Find a community and get a coach for accountability and guidance

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Hey, what’s up, everybody? Tim Ulbrich here, and excited to turn the page on the New Year. Here we are, 2021, hard to believe we’re at the start of the new year. And we know that 2020 was a hard year for many, and I’m hopeful that 2021 brings a better year for everyone.

OK, let’s do this. 10 financial moves to consider for 2021. And spoiler alert: I’ve actually got 11, so we’ll have a bonus one at the end. Now, we know every new year, it’s a chance to turn the page, a chance to reset, and yes, it’s just an artificial point in time, a day that is really no different than any other day except obviously for tax reasons and of course, if something is changing at the 1st of the year, whether that be compensation or benefits. But regardless, those aside, it’s an opportunity to turn the page and let’s take advantage of the opportunity to reset. Now, perhaps resetting means that you’re someone who’s on track and it’s just reminding yourself of the plan that you have in place and celebrating the success and the wins that you’ve had thus far and wanting to keep that momentum going forward. Or perhaps the new year means that you feel like you’re not on track. Maybe you’ve got a plan or a plan that you need to dust off, and it’s a chance or an opportunity to reset course and to recorrect for the new year. Or perhaps you don’t have a plan, and it’s time to get one in place and it’s a time to evaluate what are the different parts of the financial plan and considering all of the things that are out there, what are the low-hanging fruit and what are the areas that you can begin to get some momentum on to be able to have longer term success as it relates to your finances?

So No. 1 — as we go to this list towards 10 financial moves to consider for 2021 — No. 1: Simplify and Clarify Your Goals for the New Year. Now, notice I didn’t say set your goals as I suspect that many of you are already doing that. We talk about that on the show all the time, the importance of having an intentional plan heading into the new year or just in general, an intentional plan as it relates to finances to know your compass and know where you are going. So rather, what I’m referring to here is bringing them into focus and getting specific with those goals to make sure that you’re laser-focused on how you’re going to achieve those. So we know, I know, you know, that there are lots of competing financial priorities, regardless of the stage that you are at within your financial plan. So perhaps you’re somebody who’s listening that has been out of school for a decade or more and you’ve worked through maybe the student loan debt that you’ve had, you’ve paid that off and you’re kind of on a next evolution or phase of your financial plan. There’s lots of competing priorities, even after getting rid of those pesky student loans. Or perhaps you’re someone who is a recent graduate or a student that’s listening and you’re trying to figure out, OK, I’ve got this behemoth of my student loans, and how do I begin to think about other things as I also face what is, of course, this big priority that’s right in front of me? Or perhaps you’re someone who’s nearing the retirement age or you’re in the latter part of your career and you’re trying to identify, OK, I’ve done all of this work, I’ve put these things into place and I want to make sure I go into this next phase of my career, next phase of my financial plan, and I do that in a way that is intentional and I do that in a way that is efficient to make sure I achieve the goals that I want to achieve and of course, lots of tax and other considerations that are there as well. So regardless of the stage that you’re in, whether it’s mid-career, end of career, new career, there are lots of competing priorities. And I’m convinced that the priorities, you know, don’t go away. But it’s a matter of how you can identify those and prioritize those to make sure you’re intentional with what you’re trying to achieve in any given period of time. And here, of course, we’re talking about heading into the new year. So if you haven’t already done so, put them down on paper. And my encouragement for you is to leave this to just a few financial goals that you want to make sure that you prioritize and achieve for the year. So I’m going to encourage three goals and that you write them in a way that provides you with the best opportunity to achieve that goal. So making sure you’re specific about the what of the goal, the when you want to achieve that goal by, and the why — what’s the purpose, why does that matter in terms of the rest of your financial plan and why is this specific goal important?

So let me give you an example here. If I were to say, you know, “Beginning Feb. 1, I’m going to allocate an additional $200 per month towards a Roth IRA so that I can grow my long-term savings in a way that aligns with my retirement goals or plan.” So when I get that specific with a what, with a when and a why — so here, we’re talking about what are we doing: an additional $200 per month towards a Roth IRA. When: by Feb. 1. Alright, how does that look in the budget? Now I’ve got an idea of when and how much. Why? So that I can make sure I’m achieving my long-term savings goals. That is a goal that we’re likely or increased likelihood of achieving because we’re getting specific and we can look at the rest of our financial plan to determine whether or not that is feasible and whether or not that is realistic.

Now, before you set your goals, you’ve heard us say this on the show before, you have to be clear on the why, the so what, the purpose. And we’ve talked about why finding your financial why is so important. And you know, really, what we’re trying to answer here is the question of why does this topic of money even matter to you? Or why does this specific goal and achieving this specific goal even matter? Why is this important? Why is this relevant? And that sounds like a relatively simple question, but if you have thought about this in depth before, you know that it is not. This is the “So what?” question. So before you get too deep into the x’s and o’s of any one part of the financial plan, whether that’s debt repayment, whether that’s investing or savings or insurance, whatever that would be, we have to first understand what we’re trying to achieve. And we talk a lot about our vision at YFP of helping pharmacists on their path towards achieving financial freedom. And my challenge to you is what does that concept, what does that term of financial freedom mean for you? There’s no one right answer. And that can certainly — will be certainly different for many folks that are listening to this episode.

So what’s the goal? So a few ideas to get things stirred up, hopefully to get you thinking about this topic a little bit more. I’ve talked with many pharmacists that say, “You know, when I hear financial freedom, I think about flexibility. I think about options of working or perhaps having the choice to work or how much I work or when I work. Even if I really enjoy the work I do.” Or perhaps it’s to be in a position of control with how you’re spending your time or your money. Perhaps it’s to be able to give, to be philanthropic. Perhaps it’s to leave a legacy or to travel without worry or stress or regret. Perhaps it’s to help family members or friends that are in need or be in a position to do that or to start a business or a movement or a foundation or a charity. You get the point. It’s the financial why, it’s the purpose, and that’s really going to help drive the rest of our financial plan. So that’s No. 1, Simplify and Clarify Your Goals. Set three financial goals for the new year. And then the background of those goals should be the purpose, the vision, the why of your financial plan such that if you achieve those goals, you’re one step closer to achieving your financial why.

No. 2, Revisit the Big Questions or Discussions with Your Spouse if this, of course, applicable to you and your personal situation. Could be a significant other as well. Now, I wrote a blog post way back when several years ago titled, “10 Financial Discussions that I Believe Every Couple Should Have.” And we’ll link to that blog post in the show notes. And you know, these are questions such as when you’re balancing financial priorities or making decisions, of all of the financial priorities you have to consider, whether that’s giving, saving for retirement, housing, transportation, paying off debt, and so on, do you and your spouse or significant other agree upon a plan for how you will balance these? How will you prioritize them? How will you fund those goals, in what order and when? Will you be focusing on several at once or just one at a time before moving on to another one? That’s an example of a big question or discussion to have. Another one, for example, might be around giving. How does each individual feel about giving? How much and where? How will this be budgeted for? Another one might be around the level of engagement. Is one individual taking the lead more than the other when it comes to managing the finances? If so, are both individuals aware of the overall financial situation? How do you talk about this topic? How do you communicate this topic? Are there shared accounts, individual accounts? So I’m just scratching the surface here, and I’ll reference you to that post. But my encouragement would be to look at these and maybe several of these you have had, maybe some you need to revisit, some you haven’t had. But the challenge here in No. 2 is to go back and revisit, discuss, rediscuss these questions with your significant other or your spouse with the understanding that the answers to these are of course going to be significant and inform the direction that you take with many parts of the financial plan.

No. 3, Take Advantage of Any Low-Hanging Fruit so that you can get a win or two and get some momentum early on in the year. Now, again, regardless of where you are at in the stage of your career or your financial plan, I think this is a very important concept for us all to consider. Is there any low-hanging fruit that we can get a quick win or two, get some momentum, so that we’re encouraged and motivated and want to be going on with achieving the other perhaps more audacious or bigger goals that we have set out for the year. So things that come to mind here, things that I evaluated myself in 2020, these could be shopping around auto or home insurance or have you looked at this in a while? If not, good chance to understand your coverage, shop these around, see if there’s any you can save without giving up on the quality of those coverages and policies. Perhaps you’re someone who has wanted to get a term life insurance policy in place or that is a need and it fits with your plan but for whatever reason, you haven’t done that. Relatively inexpensive, we’ll talk about insurance here a little bit in a few moments. Maybe it’s refinancing a mortgage. You know, I’m sure you all heard and read about where rates have gone in 2020, certainly probably into 2021, through the pandemic. And perhaps for whatever reason, you haven’t evaluated that. Is that something to consider? Are there any recurring bills that perhaps you’re not aware of or maybe have lost track of or bills that have gone up over time that you might be able to take a fresh look at and negotiate, things like cable and other services. Are you eligible for HSA savings? And we talked about this in episode 165, The Power of a Health Savings Account. But this is an example of a tax-advantaged account where there’s great benefits, the dollars aren’t enormous, but again, perhaps this small victory, this quick win, this low-hanging fruit that can help accelerate the rest of your financial plan. So do any of these resonate? Or are there any others that you would identify of things that you’ve been meaning to do that you know what needs to be done and you want to just take that next step and knock it out and to continue the momentum with other goals in 2021.

No. 4, Put Your Goals on Automatic and Get Yourself Out of the Way. Now, one of my favorite books, I’ve talked about it on the show many times, “I Will Teach You to Be Rich” by Ramit Sethi, he talks about this concept of automation, automation, automation. He goes through great examples of how to do it. We’ve also talked about it on this show, Episode 057, The Power of Automating Your Financial Plan. But the concept is simple: Once you set your financial goals, when your paycheck comes in, you have a system in place so that your goals are being funded right away and that you have a budget behind that to know that you’re not going to be putting yourself in a position where you’re overspending your income each and every month. Now, for those of you that have been doing this for some time, I think this concept of automation is also very important. It’s this concept of prioritizing your goals, paying yourself first rather than hoping you have money left over. And so perhaps it’s revisiting those goals, revisiting the amounts, the timeline, when do you want to achieve those, and building the systems — again, Ramit talks about that in “I Will Teach You to Be Rich,” we talked about it on Episode 057, how to build the systems so that once you get paid, once you have the goals, you’re automatically funding those accounts such that you are essentially assuring — hopefully — that you’re going to achieve those and behaviorally getting yourself out of the way, which often we individually are the biggest barrier to achieving our financial plan. So that’s No. 4, Put Your Goals on Automatic and Get Yourself Out of the Way.

No. 5, Revisit Your Student Loan Game Plan. Now, here we are at the beginning of 2021, ready to turn the page on a new administration in terms of the President and the President’s team, which may or may not bring additional changes around student loans. We don’t know that yet. But what we know of the first of the year, is that we know that the most recent stimulus package that was passed at the end of 2020 did not extend the administrative forbearance on qualifying federal loans that has frozen for the last nine months or so the interest that was due and any payments that were required on those loans. So it’s really been an incredible time period for those that have qualifying federal loans. For good reasons, payments were not due and interest was not accruing on those qualifying federal loans. So what’s going to come next? We don’t know. There’s been lots of hypotheses that have been thrown out there. There’s been several proposals that have been mentioned throughout the presidential debates and leading up to the election. But we don’t know. As of early January 2021, we don’t know what’s going to happen. Now, we do know that if nothing else happens at this point in time, this administrative forbearance is going to expire. But perhaps this could be continued through an executive order, perhaps there’s additional policies and legislation coming into the future. But we don’t know. So my point here is this is the time period, throughout the month of January, to take advantage of this administrative forbearance as long as it lasts — and if it goes on longer, great. If it doesn’t, you’re ready to go. Take advantage of this time period to come up with your student loan repayment plan or to evaluate or re-evaluate your options to make sure that you’ve got the plan in place that’s going to be the best fit for your personal situation. And we talked about this at length on several other episodes, we’ve got lots of resources on the blog, we’ve got, of course, one of our latest books, “The Pharmacist’s Guide to Conquering Student Loans,” which talks about A-Z student loan repayment for pharmacists. And you can get a copy of that book at PharmDloans.com, and if you use the coupon code “YFP,” that will get you 15% off. So this is the time period to take advantage of this administrative forbearance, as long as it lasts, understand and evaluate all your options, and be ready to go such that when this time period is done, you’re ready to hit the ground running with an intentional student loan repayment plan. Now, for those that don’t have student loans or paid them off, happy dance, right? We’re excited that we’re at this point in time, but perhaps this is also an opportunity to pay it forward and help those that are in this situation — it can be very overwhelming — through providing your input, your experience, maybe getting them a copy of a book like the “Pharmacist’s Guide to Conquering Student Loans,” or pointing them in the direction of some resources that could be helpful to them, things that you’ve learned through your journey, mentoring other folks, but an opportunity to pay it forward to those that are dealing with student loans and typically six figures or more of student loans front and center as they’re trying to attack this and come up with a plan in 2021. So that’s No. 5, Revisit Your Student Loan Game Plan.

No. 6 is Take Your Tax Strategy to the Next Level. Now, Episode 184, just last week, we talked about how to optimize your tax strategy. I brought on YFP Director of Tax and our CFO Paul Eikenberg, who’s our tax professional at YFP. And we talked about the difference between tax planning and preparation, a very important difference. We talked about tax planning mistakes that he sees, we talked about strategies that pharmacists should consider employing to optimize their tax situation. We talked about strategies around legal tax avoidance, tax deferment, and then opportunities to take advantage of those accounts and strategies where you can have tax-free gains. And we broke down each one of these strategies and ones to consider, and so go back and listen to Episode 184 if you didn’t catch that over the holidays. And this is the chance — if you have been someone that has perhaps had your tax filing on automatic and haven’t really thought about understanding all of the different options being a little bit more strategic with OK, now that we’ve completed the filing, what should we be thinking about for the next year in terms of more of a strategic tax plan? Perhaps this is the year where you look at bringing somebody into your financial plan that can really help you be more intentional with your tax strategy. So Paul, as I mentioned, leads our tax planning and preparation services for clients of YFP Planning. And this year, we’re excited to make that service available to 50 more households. And so you can learn more about the tax planning and preparation services that we’re offering and secure your spot by visiting YourFinancialPharmacist.com/filemytaxes. Again, don’t wait. We’re capping this opportunity at 50 pharmacist households. So first come, first served. Again, that’s YourFinancialPharmacist.com/filemytaxes.

No. 7, Button Up the Insurance Part of Your Financial Plan. This is the defensive part of the financial plan. Now, there’s lots of insurance to think about, right? Health, auto, home, renters — but here, I’m really specifically talking about life, disability and professional liability. And this is a part of the plan that I think often gets overlooked because it can be overwhelming to understand what one does or does not need. It can be perhaps not necessarily very exciting, right, to spend money on things that may or may not happen when you look at other priorities such as paying off student loans or investing or saving for the future. So my encouragement is learn first, shop second, and buy last. So first, determine what you do need, what you don’t need. So what does your employer offer? What do they not offer? Where are there gaps? What types of coverage do you need based on your personal situation. We talk about this at length on Episode 044. We talked about how to determine life insurance needs, Episode 045. How to determine disability insurance needs in Episode 155, why you need liability insurance and there of course, talking about professional liability. So learn first, spend time, dig in, understand life, disability, professional liability, understand the nuances of those policies. Shop second. Find an independent broker, and we’ve got some resources on the YFP site that can help you shop the market of what you do and do not need after you evaluate what you do or do not have from your employer, what other coverage do you need, what gaps exist? And then finally, buy last once you’re confident in what you need and the options that are out there.

No. 8, Evaluate Where Real Estate May or May Not Fit into Your Financial Plan and fit into your long-term financial goals. Now, I’ve said this before that as we focused on more real estate on this show in 2020, we’ll be doing much of that in 2021 as well, I’m not suggesting that real estate is for everyone. But I do have a sense that for many pharmacists, evaluating real estate investing — and there’s a lot of different ways to get there — is something that folks are interested in, encouraged in for a variety of reasons, and maybe have been on the fence about should I look at doing real estate investing? Is this a part of the financial plan that makes sense based on a lot of different factors? So looking at the risks, the rewards, what’s the goal? What’s the point? Why do I want to invest in real estate? What’s the point of perhaps generating additional cash flow each month? How might you get involved? Or how involved do you want to be or not involved? Do you want this to be more passive? Do you want it to be more active? Do you have opportunities in your area? Would it be outside of your area? Are there mentors or resources in your community that can help you? And so we have — as I mentioned — featured several stories in 2020, a few that come to mind, Episode 173, Ryan Shaw, all these pharmacists, Ryan Shaw talked about the systems that he has in place for the investing that he does. Episode 178, Nate Hedrick, our real estate expert, talked about his experience flipping a home up in Michigan. Episode 182, Young Park talked about his experience with long-distance real estate investing, lives in Hawaii, invests primarily in Kansas City, and how he has developed systems and how he has built the beginnings of his real estate portfolio. So I recommend you check out those episodes and really determining what your plan is in 2021 if you feel like real estate investing is a good fit. What’s the plan for 2021? Is it learning more? Is it making a move on a property? Is it finding a mentor? Is it more than one of those? So make sure to tune in here, more to come in 2021. We’re going to have more episodes, more content focused on real estate investing. We’re going to be launching a real estate regular show, regular podcast on this YFP podcast. We’ll have more information coming about that throughout the month of January and February. And we’re going to continue to build out more resources for those that are looking to learn more as well as engage and connect with other pharmacist real estate investors. Now, of course another great place to learn — as I’m sure many of you have already heard of when it comes to real estate — Bigger Pockets has great content, great resources, they’ve got forums, the podcast, the blog. And one of my favorite books for those looking to get started, “The ABCs of Real Estate Investing” they published as a book. So lots of places to go here. No. 8, Evaluate Where Real Estate May or May Not Fit into Your Financial Plan and Goals and determine where you’re going to take action as it relates to this goal.

No. 9 is Update Your Legacy Folder. Now, we talked about this. It’s been awhile, but way back when, early on in the show, we talked about this concept of a legacy folder. And I think as we turn the page on 2020, heading into 2021, this is a good time to make sure that you’re updating your systems and your files and you’re making sure that what you have in place is most up-to-date and relevant information. So I first heard of the idea of a legacy folder when taking Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University through a local church several years ago. And I remember walking away thinking, wow, so obvious yet so important and at the time was something that I hadn’t yet implemented for our own family and our own financial plan. And essentially, the idea of a legacy folder, whether it’s physical, electronic, or both, is a place where you have all of your financial-related documents so in the event of an emergency, others would be able to quickly assess your financial situation and get access to all of the documents and accounts that pertain to your finances. So examples of items here could include things like insurance policies, wills and power of attorney, account information for savings or debt or could be mortgages, could be credit cards, could be student loans, various savings accounts you have, whether that’s brokerage accounts, retirement accounts and so on. Essentially, a one-stop shop for all of your financial documents and making sure those that should have access or could have access or would need to have access know where that information is and how they can get ahold of it in the event of an emergency happening. Of course, you’ve got to think about security and how you secure that information, whether that’s physical, electronic, or both. So that’s No. 9, Updating Your Legacy Folder.

No. 10 is Setting Your Learning Plan when it comes to personal finance for 2021. Now, at YFP, one of our core values for our team is encourage growth and development. And we believe that for ourselves, for our team, and for you, the YFP community, this concept of constantly growing, learning and developing needs to be at the front and center of one’s financial plan, regardless of where you are at on this journey. Right? There’s always something to learn on this topic. So podcasts, lots that are out there, of course, this one. We hope you’ll tune in. I mentioned the Bigger Pockets podcast, there’s other personal finance podcasts and some resources. When it comes to books, of course there’s the classics: “Rich Dad Poor Dad,” “Millionaire Next Door,” other books that come to mind as some of my favorite personal finance books: “The Automatic Millionaire” by David Bach, “Tax-Free Wealth” by Tom Wheelwright, “The Truth About Money” by Ric Edelman, “The Compound Effect” by Darren Hardy, “The Behavioral Investor” by Daniel Crosby, and one that I recently read that’s not as well known, “Happy Money: The science of happier spending,” written by Elizabeth Dunn and Michael Norton is a great resource, not on the x’s and o’s of the financial plan but more on when it comes to how we use our money, what are some of the things where when we think about our why and our purpose and driving value and happiness, how can money be used as a tool? And what does the science really have to say in that area? So set your plan, look at the options. There’s many out there. I’m sure the YFP Facebook group would have other suggestions as well. And set your learning plan for the year and be intentional about making that a priority in 2021.

No. 11, as I mentioned, I had a bonus here. No. 11 is Find a Community and Get a Coach for both accountability and guidance. Now, when it comes to the community aspect, I hope if you’re not already, you’ll be a part of the YFP Facebook group. I think this is a great community that is really encouraging in some regard, mentoring, helping one another on their path towards achieving financial freedom. I think we’re now a community of about 8,000 strong pharmacy professionals all across the country, so hope you’ll join us. And in terms of getting a coach, we really believe one-on-one comprehensive financial planning is what leads to the greatest accountability and the customization of all of these topics that we’re talking about to one’s individual situations. And so I think this derives the greatest results for the obvious reasons of it’s one-on-one, it’s intentional, it’s consistent, it has accountability, it’s specific to your goals and your plan. But we recognize that it may not be for everyone for a variety of reasons. But if you’re not yet already aware or participating in our comprehensive financial planning one-on-one services, you can schedule a discovery call today, no obligations, see if it’s a good fit for you, a good fit for us. And you can do that by going to YFPPlanning.com, click on “Schedule a Discovery Call,” and we’ll get you on the calendar here in the next month. We also talked about in Episode 181, for those of you that are thinking about is a financial planner a good fit, we talked about many of the topics of financial planning of what we do at YFP but also what are important to look at in general? Fee-only, fiduciary, comprehensive, making sure you’re finding the good fit of financial planning services that are specific to your individual needs. And that was Episode 181.

So there you have it, 10 financial moves to make for 2021 or to consider, plus one in terms of the bonus of finding a community and a coach for accountability and guidance. And speaking of that community, as I mentioned in the introduction, we’ve got an awesome giveaway to go along with this episode to kick off the new year. I mentioned how important it was for my own financial plan and journey to find good resources. And we’re excited to be sharing those with the YFP community. And so we’re going to be doing that through a giveaway in this early part of January where we’re giving two winners in the YFP Facebook group a one-year YNAB subscription, a pair of Apple Airpods, and a copy of “Your Best Year Ever” by Michael Hyatt. So two individuals will win each of those three things. And to enter, you have to be a part of the YFP Facebook group and then comment with your 2021 financial goal on the giveaway post at the top of the group.

So let’s have a great 2021. Let’s approach this year with intention, with purpose. I hope you’ll share your goals, your success, your wins, your questions, with the community in the YFP Facebook group. And as always, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, please do us a favor and leave a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show each and every week. Have a great rest of your day, and here’s to an awesome 2021.

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YFP 184: How to Optimize Your 2021 Tax Strategy

Posted on by yfpadmin

How to Optimize Your 2021 Tax Strategy

Paul Eikenberg, YFP Director of Tax and CFO, joins Tim Ulbrich to talk about how to optimize your tax situation in 2021. Paul discusses the difference between tax planning and preparation, common tax planning mistakes he sees pharmacists making, and strategies pharmacists should consider employing to optimize their tax situation.

About Today’s Guest

Paul has supported hundreds of pharmacists in both tax filing and tax planning to maximize their deductions and avoid overpaying. In addition to being an Enrolled Agent (EA) and YFP’s Director of Tax Services, Paul Eikenberg brings skills from his extensive business experience to YFP. Paul has owned franchises, been a VP of Franchise Operations, and a Credit Union Board Chair.

Summary

On this week’s episode, Paul Eikenberg, YFP Director of Tax and CFO, breaks down how to optimize your tax situation in 2021. Although we’re only ending 2020, planning for your future tax situation is a large part of your financial plan as it can have major financial implications down the road.

Paul explains that tax preparation is merely a historical look at what happened last year. On the other hand, tax planning is oriented in the future. The aim with tax planning is to match your tax plan to your goals and financial plan. This can help you make investment and other financial decisions while optimizing your earnings.

Paul shares three tax strategies that you can use to optimize your tax situation in 2021: legal tax avoidance, deferment, and pay now with tax free gains. He breaks down how each of the strategies work and what type of financial moves fall into these approaches.

YFP Planning comprehensive financial planning clients have tax preparation and tax planning as part of our services. This year YFP is expanding our tax services to 50 additional pharmacist households. Learn more about these services and how you can file your taxes with YFP here.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Paul, it’s great to have you on the show. It’s been a long time, way back on Episode 070, and so for our listeners who aren’t familiar with who you are and the work that you have done and are doing with YFP, share a little bit about your background and tell us about that work that you are doing.

Paul Eikenberg: Well thanks for having me, Tim. And you know, it’s an exciting time at YFP. I joined three years ago. And I’m the oldest member of the YFP team, so my background’s a little more varied than everybody else. But I grew up in a small business, and I have started a rental car business as a franchisee, joined the franchise company and worked a few years as the Vice President of Franchise Operations there. So I was involved in a lot of startups with franchisees in one role or another. And career after that was as a franchisee in the computer, hardware and repair business. And did that for 15 years. After I sold that business, I worked as a Vice President of a management service company with a lot of responsibilities for budgeting for our largest clients and their IT planning and budgeting role. And in between all that, since I had a good accounting background, I did taxes frequently in between my different careers. I spent time working with Jackson Hewitt, H&R Block, and when my role a few years ago was downsized, I called my financial planner, Tim Baker, to talk about what should I do now?

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Paul Eikenberg: And you know, when we talked about financial freedom, I had the financial freedom to kind of choose what I was going to do next. And then one conversation with Tim, I said, “I think I might just do taxes, work real hard part of the year, and not so hard the rest of the year.” And Tim said, “Funny you should say that. I really want to add tax services to my — you know, to the offering.”

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Paul Eikenberg: “That I have as a financial planner.” And from there, I went and took the test for the EA, which is Enrolled Agent, and worked part-time with a CPA firm and part-time with Tim Baker up ‘til last year, when our client roll was large enough that I could just start working for YFP. And I’ve enjoyed it immensely.

Tim Ulbrich: And we are super grateful — I know I speak on behalf of the team — super grateful to have you, your expertise. You’ve provided valuable input to the business. I mean that sincerely. It’s been really a pleasure and a blessing to have you as a part of the team. And as you were retelling that story, Paul, which I’ve heard you say before, the part about working hard during the tax season and then not so much the rest of the year, I think we’ve busted that up a little bit as we needed to lean on you in so many areas for the business, and we’re appreciative of that. And I think some of our listeners may know that we do tax, as you mentioned, as a part of our financial planning for clients because we so firmly believe that we need to wed the financial plan with the tax plan for a variety of reasons, which we’ll talk about here today. But folks may not know that even for those that are not comprehensive planning clients that we do offer tax services. And so we’re excited to give the community a little bit of an inside look into why tax is such an important part of the financial plan, why it’s worth investing in, and how they might consider optimizing their 2021 strategy. And to that point, that’s what we’re talking about here today. We’re talking about considerations to optimize your 2021 tax situation. Now, I know the listeners are thinking, wait a minute, 2021? I haven’t even filed my 2020 taxes yet. And I get it, but we’re here to really tell you and reinforce that tax planning is a big part of your financial plan. And as with any aspect of the financial plan, you know us by now, we like to be intentional — as intentional as we possibly can with it. So that’s what we’re digging into this episode at the end of the year so that you can jump into 2021 with an understanding of options and strategies with confidence that can help you be more intentional with tax planning and hopefully allow you, legally, to bring home as much of your income as possible. And so Paul, kick us off by explaining the difference between tax preparation and tax planning and why both are so important.

Paul Eikenberg: Tax preparation is really the historical look at what happened last year. So it’s required, you have to do it. But it’s really somewhere between January and April, you collect all of the information on what happened last year and report it to the IRS. There’s a couple of adjustments you can make during that period of time, but pretty much it’s a look back at things that have been done and just reporting and paying your taxes. Where I get more excited and I think we’re doing some of the best work at YFP is in the planning portion of it. And that’s where you can have more impact on your financial plan and get into that financial freedom. It’s more future-oriented. And what I enjoy about the work we’re doing with the comprehensive clients is that we’re able to match their tax plan to their overall goals and make decisions based on where you are and where you’re going. So the more complicated the filings, you know, the more helpful it is. And the other thing that’s a huge impact is for people on the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program, how you do your taxes can make a big difference and have a long-term impact. And just that coordination between a financial plan and your tax strategy makes a big difference.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. So the preparation, I think our listeners are very well familiar with that. They either do it every year, perhaps they do it themselves, maybe they do it with one of the Big Box entities that you mentioned at the beginning of the show, maybe they hire a CPA. So I think we understand, we get that. We’re looking backwards. But I think you articulated so well the planning, the proactive, the strategy, the making sure we’re being intentional, looking ahead is so important. And we’re going to give some good examples of that today throughout the show. Now, we could do a whole episode I’m sure, Paul, of mistakes that you commonly see people making regarding tax planning. But we’ve got other things we want to get to as well, so hit the high points for us. What are some of the most common mistakes that you see people making regarding tax planning that our listeners can be on the lookout for?

Paul Eikenberg: Not taking advantage of employer benefit programs. We’ll see people with dependent care benefits that are available to them and not taking advantage of them. Not coordinating between spouses. If you’re not maxing out your retirement programs, is there a greater benefit of contributions to one spouse or the other? Same with HSAs are one of the best tax tools out there. People not taking advantage of the HSAs. Missing a tax credit because they went over the phase out that if they planned a little different, they wouldn’t have gone over the phase out. And one of the common things we see is not so much changing the taxes but not having your W4s correct with the employer and having a surprise balance due in April when you file taxes. So those are a few of the things. And then you see some people making decisions that are based on tax ramifications rather than making financial decisions and understanding what the tax ramifications are. So you do see some errors there with people.

Tim Ulbrich: Great point. And we know there’s a lot at stake here. You know, one of the statistics I like to give pharmacists, especially young pharmacists, as they’re just making that transition into their career but is really good for all of us to think is there’s a lot at stake here. And the statistic I give is that pharmacists on average, using the Bureau of Labor statistics data on salary, using a normal trajectory of career in terms of a timeline of work, on average are going to make $9 million over their career. Obviously, we are assuming for income increases and things that are happening. And $6 million of that, roughly speaking, will actually flow through their bank account. And so the difference there, the delta of $3 million, is in part what we’re talking about here related to tax. And so there’s a lot at stake and a lot that we have to consider. And I would argue the earlier we get this right and the earlier that we invest in the right resources to make sure that we have it right, we’re making decisions appropriately, obviously we’re going to benefit from that throughout our career. So Paul, let’s break down for a moment a couple key terms that I sense will come up throughout our discussion today. And again, we’re not intending for this episode to be all comprehensive on tax, but a couple that I know will come up in the discussion are marginal tax rate and AGI, or Adjusted Gross Income. So define those terms for us.

Paul Eikenberg: Marginal tax rate is to me one of the key numbers people should understand. And your marginal tax rate is the tax you pay on the last hour you earned and your next hour. And there’s a lot of misconceptions that when you jump a tax rate that it goes back to the first hour. It’s a graduated tax system, so when you jump a tax rate, you’re only paying that tax on the dollars above that amount.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Paul Eikenberg: So marginal tax rate, federal rates, we’ll typically see pharmacists in the 24%, 22% and sometimes 32% tax rates. And that’s federal tax. And states can be from 0% to 12% in marginal tax rates. So you know, we will have pharmacists typically with that combined and if you take a local tax rate and add it in there if you’re in a city with a local tax, we’ll see typically marginal tax rates from 30-40%.

Tim Ulbrich: Ouch.

Paul Eikenberg: When you add them all together.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Paul Eikenberg: Yeah. Why that’s important to know is because when you start making decisions on a Roth versus a traditional retirement, max in your retirement versus putting the money somewhere else, making a charitable contribution, if you understand your marginal tax rate, you know the general tax ramifications of if I make $1,000 contribution this year, and I’m itemizing, and I’m in a 35% marginal rate, I’m going to save $350 in taxes. If I put $1,000 more in an HSA than I was planning, I’m going to save $350 —

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Paul Eikenberg: In taxes. So it’s kind of a key number in decision-making and understanding what the general tax ramifications are for you. Other key number for a lot of our clients is Adjusted Gross Income. You know, we mentioned Public Service Loan Forgiveness program before. Your student loan payments are based on an Adjusted Gross Income. A lot of the phase-outs, do you qualify for a lifetime learning credit? Can you deduct student loan debt? That AGI is the number you use for the qualifier for a lot of different tax programs. And it’s Adjusted Gross Income. So when you calculate Adjusted Gross Income, it is your wages, net rental income, net business income, dividends, interest, all that kind of gross income goes in and then you’re able to reduce it by what we call “above-the-line deductions.” That’s going to be your HSA, your FSA, your dependent childcare, student loan deductions that are allowed. That reduces the kind of gross wage, gross income, to an Adjusted Gross Income. And that AGI is a key number.

Tim Ulbrich: And let’s hold that thought. We’re going to come back here in just a moment as we talk about tax strategies and even further connect what Paul just said there. So let’s dig into those tax strategies. And we’re going to look at a few different areas, tax avoidance, tax deferment, paying now, and a hybrid approach. And so let’s start with tax avoidance — and I hope it goes without saying that here, we’re talking about tax avoidance within a framework, of course, of following the law. So nothing we’re suggesting is avoiding something that we shouldn’t be avoiding. So Paul, when it comes to avoidance, what are we referring to here? And what is included? What types of financial moves would fall under this strategy? And I know you’ve alluded to a couple of them already with the HSA, FSA and some other things.

Paul Eikenberg: Let’s talk about the HSA a little bit more because that to me is the No. 1 tax tool. If you’re on a health insurance program that allows an HSA, it’s got the most tax benefits too. For a family this year, the limit is $7,100 that you can put into an HSA. That money, if you’re having it deducted from your paycheck, it goes in before not only income tax but before FICA tax. So it goes in pre-Medicare, pre-social security tax. It carries over from year-to-year so you can build the fund there, you can invest it, and that money will grow tax-free. And it is the only tool that goes in tax-free, grows tax-free, and when you spend it on medical expenses, it comes out, it’s never taxed. So it has multiple tax benefits and is really the best tool available to you to get the most out of your money.

Tim Ulbrich: And I would point, Paul, our listeners — before we go onto others in the avoidance category — we feel so strongly about the HSA, we’ve covered it a couple times. We’ve got a great post by Tim Church on the blog. Episode 165, we talked about the power of the Health Savings Account, broke down further what Paul is talking about and spent an entire episode on that. So if you’re wondering more about an HSA and have one, aren’t sure, want to evaluate where it may fit in your financial plan, I’d recommend our listeners check out those resources, which we’ll link into the show notes. So what else beyond the HSA would fall into this category of avoidance, or at least common ones?

Paul Eikenberg: One of the more frequent things you hear is treasury bonds. The interest on those grows tax-free. Municipal bonds, you know, there will be some tax advantages to those. So they’re one tool. Another tool that people sometimes miss is the difference in taxation on long-term capital gains, short-term capital gains. If you’re making money on stock investment, property investment, you’re taxed at a lower rate for a long-term gain — and the definition of long term is 1 year plus debt. You’ll see some people sell a stock, short-term gain, pay ordinary at your marginal tax rate whereas on a long-term gain, most people that we work with are in a 15% tax rate. So there can be a 17% in that by timing how long you keep it. Another area we see people not take advantage of is the dependent care — and again, that’s a deduction if it’s a payroll deduction that comes out pre-social security and pre-Medicare. Other item that we’re seeing some activity on is the home sale exclusion. And this is designed so that if you move into your home for more than two years, you make a gain on it, the gain on that sale is excluded up to $250,000 for a single person, $500,000 for a married couple. If you’re somebody that likes fixing up a home, there’s some great tax benefits that buying a fixer-upper, working on it, moving in it for two years, and then selling it and moving to the next one.

Tim Ulbrich: Especially if somebody’s in a market where, to your point, a fixer-upper may want to buy something knowing the appreciation will be good. It’s an interesting different take on kind of real estate investing than we may think of as buying other properties but rather with this home sale exclusion. And if I understand you correctly, if somebody were married and they bought a home for $400,000 between the two of them, each having $250,000, when they go to sell it, as long as it’s below $900,000 when they sell it, which would be an incredible gain in value and appreciation on that home, that that gain and that growth is tax-free.

Paul Eikenberg: Correct. And you know, while it sounds like in most areas of the country an incredible gain, San Francisco, Seattle, some of the northeast, it’s not as unusual as some of the other parts of the country.

Tim Ulbrich: That makes sense. And I think that one will be of great interest to our listeners. The other one, Paul, which you mentioned and I just wanted you to expand on a little bit more was the childcare bills from an FSA, the 129 Plan. Tell us a little bit more as I suspect that’s something that folks are already taking advantage of or could be taking advantage of going into the new year.

Paul Eikenberg: We see a lot of people not taking advantage of it. There are a lot of people that do, but you know, that dependent childcare employer plan typically lets you have $5,000 deducted from your paychecks and then you can get reimbursed for childcare expenses. And there is a credit available if you don’t take advantage of it. And for most people, it’s 20% of the childcare expenses, up to $3,000 for one child, up to $6,000 for more than one child.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Paul Eikenberg: But what the FSA does for you is first, it makes the deduction pre-social security, pre-Medicare. The other thing it does is if you have one child, it’s a $5,000, not a $3,000 plan.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Paul Eikenberg: If you’re in the 32% bracket, it’s a much better benefit than if you are taking a 20% bracket. So we talk avoidance, you know, it avoids taxes forever is what we’re kind of talking about avoidance here. I’ll come back to one of my favorite quotes from a tax court judge is that there are two systems of taxation in the United States. One for the informed and one for the uninformed, and both are in league.

Tim Ulbrich: And I’m glad you mentioned that. One of the books I’ve referenced on the podcast before, which I would reference again to our listeners — we’ll link in the show notes — is “Tax-Free Wealth” is one of those resources that really just opened up my eyes to exactly what you just said there and how important it is to be informed of the options. And we’re talking, again, in this first category of avoidance, we’ve already covered a lot. We’re just scratching the surface, but we’ve talked about an HSA, long-term capital gains, we talked about childcare bills and FSA, we talked about home sale exclusion. So again, I think just highlighting the importance of understanding all of the options that are available to you and then the power of working with somebody such as yourself to really customize this and apply it alongside of the financial plan, of course with our great team over at YFP Planning. So that’s No. 1, avoidance. No. 2, Paul, is this tax strategy of defer. So tell us what you mean by this and some common financial moves that fall under the defer category.

Paul Eikenberg: The most common thing when we talk about deferring is 401k’s, traditional IRAs, if you’ve got self employment income, but they’re more of the traditional retirement buckets where you’re putting money in in the current tax year, you’re deducting it from your income, and you’re deferring taxes on that money and the growth of that money, the investments with that money, until you retire and start taking on that. You know, it’s one retirement strategy. And where that makes a lot of sense is when — or has extra benefit to you — is when lowering your Adjusted Gross Income helps you overall in addition to that retirement. There are phase-outs that you can manage sometimes by using the traditional retirement programs. And one of the best examples is if we go to the student loans that are in the forgiveness programs. Lowering that AGI has a tax benefit, but it also is, you know, helping manage what your loan payments are going back and it helps maximize the value of that forgiveness program.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and we spent — by we, I mean our planning team and working with you — spend a lot of time on this topic. And one of the things we are not shy about tooting our own horn on is that it’s not very common that financial planning teams and tax professionals will have a good understanding of student loans. And that’s our bread and butter.

Paul Eikenberg: One of the really interesting things there is from typical tax preparation and planning, you almost never want to file married filing separately. But in the situation of student loans, it’s not unusual where that’s what makes the most sense, even though it’s not a good decision strictly tax-wise, you know, when you do the comparison. It’s an obviously smart move overall financially.

Tim Ulbrich: And that’s a great example, Paul, of making sure you find somebody — especially for those that are facing significant student loan debt and/or strategies which have tax implications, like we’ve talked about here with forgiveness. But that’s not a common tax strategy. But when you layer on the implications with the student loans, you can see where someone may get in trouble if they’re working with somebody that may not be as familiar with student loans certainly. So while you’re talking here about traditional pre-tax buckets, 401k, 403b, traditional IRAs, since we’re heading to 2021, remind us of what to expect on the retirement contribution limits for these types of accounts.

Paul Eikenberg: Typically, 401k’s, 403b’s, right now, the limit is $19,500. If you’re over 50 years old, you have a catchup of $6,500. Those are where you max out on most of the employer programs. IRAs, $6,000, you know, most pharmacists are not going to qualify if they are under a retirement program. There are some strategies for doing back door IRAs and increasing the amounts you can contribute there.

Tim Ulbrich: And we’ll link in the show notes, we have two great resources on that. One of the most common questions we get is on the back door Roth IRAs for the exact reason that Paul mentioned. So we have a post, “Why Most Pharmacists Should Do a Back Door Roth IRA,” and then we also covered it on Episode 096 of the show, How to Do a Back Door Roth IRA. So we’d recommend looking at those resources and of course reaching out to our planning team for additional help. So we talked, Paul, about avoidance. The goal is legally not to pay taxes. We talked about HSA, finding ways to maximize in terms of the long-term capital gain rates and the savings that would come there, childcare bills in an FSA, home sale exclusions. Then we just talked about deferment with the most common being around lowering your Adjusted Gross Income from traditional pre-tax buckets. We talked about the implications there as it relates to student loans. Again, just scratching the surface. So the third area that I want to discuss for a few moments is that you pay them now, you pay the taxes now, but the gains are tax-free. So give us some common examples of things that folks want to be thinking about here.

Paul Eikenberg: Biggest thing is the Roth 401k, Roth IRAs. The strategy there is that you’re putting money in that you’re paying tax on this year but all of the growth of the investments on that are not taxed when you take it out in retirement.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Paul Eikenberg: It is your income. You’ve got that income, and if you’re not reporting, it’s not taxable in your retirement. And that helps you in some ways in retirement that’s not reflected in your AGI and not reflected in your taxable income. So there’s capital gains that that can affect in your retirement. There’s dividends that won’t be taxable to the same extent if a lot of your retirement income is not reflected in your AGI, your taxable income. The other advantage now is suppose you’re maxing out at $19,500 on your traditional retirement and you don’t have another tool to put more money in. $19,500 in a Roth IRA, the limit’s the same, but the value of it is significantly more in a Roth. So it really gives you an opportunity to increase — even though the limit is the same, you’re really putting more money in your retirement program in a Roth than a traditional IRA.

Tim Ulbrich: That makes sense. And one of the reasons — you know, we talked about the HSA already — one of the reasons we always say is the HSA, the Roth is kind of low-hanging fruit, and I think you summarized that well. The other thing that would fall in here, Paul, would also be a 529, right? I kind of think of a 529 almost like a Roth for college in that it’s going in with after-tax dollars, growing tax-free, and then you can withdraw it as long as it’s being used for the qualified educational expenses. So it has some more strings attached to it because of the nature of what it’s being used for, but would you put that here in this bucket as well?

Paul Eikenberg: Yes. And you know, 529s vary from state to state. In some states, the state that allows you to deduct it from your income for state tax purposes and has a higher limit, it’s more valuable than, say, if you live in Florida and there’s no state tax. So that one is definitely a good tool and belongs here, but it varies a little more state-to-state and individual situations.

Tim Ulbrich: Great point. And so we’ve talked about avoidance strategies, deferment strategies, we’ve talked about a third strategy, which is just pay tax now, gains are tax-free. And so Paul, I wanted to transition here for a moment. One of the things you talk about, which I love, is this concept of a tax toolbox and you know, really is inclusive of things that folks should be considering that are likely to be most relevant to their financial situation and to their financial plan as it relates to tax strategies and optimization. And we’ve covered a bunch of these already. HSAs, FSA health dependent care, we’ve talked about Roths, we’ve talked about IRAs extensively. What else would you say from your work with our clients at YFP Planning that you would see as major considerations in the tax toolbox?

Paul Eikenberg: One of the things that is looking like it’s going to be more common and really has only come into effect since the 2018 tax cuts and job act increased the standard deduction is bunching itemized expenses. A lot of people who used to itemize aren’t able to itemize anymore. The only deductions we see are charitable contributions, interest, and estate taxes. Estate taxes are now limited to $10,000 on a return. So we’re seeing people start bunching charitable contributions into one year and alternating standard deduction, itemized deduction, standard deduction, itemized deduction as they’re going on. And when you look at it, you know, over a two-year period, you’re able to get a greater tax benefit if you are putting all your charitable contributions in one of those two years.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Paul Eikenberg: You have some options with property tax, but really, it’s charitable contributions that make the most difference here. And there’s something called a donor-advised fund where you can make a contribution, put it in a fund that is invested and grows and it’s not taxed. The fund is actually the charity. But a donor-advised fund, you’re able to make recommendations on where that money goes, basically you’re controlling where the donations go. So on December 31, I can put money into that donor-advised fund, and it counts for that year along with any contributions I made. So it’s a great way of still making the donations but grouping them in one year.

Tim Ulbrich: Got it. OK. The other thing too that comes to mind, Paul, is we know many of our community is engaging with or thinking about a side hustle of some sorts that may evolve further even beyond that. We of course feature many side hustle stories on this show. I know many of our clients would fall into this category as well. Not intending this for them to be advice that they’re going to run with, but just general considerations for folks that find themselves in this category of side hustling.

Paul Eikenberg: Side hustles are a great way of generating extra money and getting some of the benefits from a tax side. So to be deductible, an expense for a side business needs to be considered ordinary, necessary and not extravagant. Ordinary means — for a tax definition that other people doing the same type of work are going to have similar expenses to this. Necessary has a fairly broad definition of does it help you generate more business, do that business better, or qualify you, you know, continuing education? Not many side businesses can be done without internet or cell phones today. Conference travel, things to generate new business. There are a lot of expenses there to acknowledge to get supplies, to — there’s times where meals to generate more business or to produce business make sense. So there are a lot of things that are deductible expenses from that side income that have a professional/personal benefit to the business owner. You know, I have a book of a couple hundred pages of ordinary business expenses.

Tim Ulbrich: And I firmly believe — I know I’ve heard Tim Baker say this a ton of times — that for those that are in a side hustle, have their own business, thinking about it, having your own personal financial plan and house in order is so incredibly beneficial to not only what the business will become but also to your sanity and to your peace of mind. And I can say that firmly from personal experience. And so I would encourage you, those that fall into that bucket, that’s an area we’re spending a lot of time with our clients right now. Head on over to YFPPlanning.com, you can schedule a discovery call, see if our services would be a fit for you. And I think making sure you’ve got a strong financial foundation in place is so important to the success of that side hustle or business. Paul, as we wrap up here, you know, I think we have briefly, succinctly, yet also covered a lot in terms of considerations. I know for many folks, it can feel overwhelming. I mentioned at the very beginning that we’re excited this year to be expanding our tax service and offering it — you’ve been leading — for our comprehensive financial planning clients that are a part of our comprehensive financial planning services to those that maybe want to engage with us on that part of their tax plan to see if it would be a good fit for them going forward. So briefly, what can our community members expect if they sign up for YFP to be working on their taxes for the year? What should they expect in working with you and your team?

Paul Eikenberg: We’re offering outside our comprehensive clients, the first step is preparing our 2020 return. We work remotely. We were built to be paperless. So it is a unique thing and business. We basically — the engagement, there’s an engagement letter that goes out, usually in January, to our clients. They sign the engagement letter and you get a secure link where you can upload your tax paperwork. We’ll take a look at your previous year return, and we take that work, go through it, look for any missing pieces of information. You’ll have a questionnaire to answer, all electronically. And we put together a return. If we need more information, we contact you to gather that. Once we have the return, we schedule a Zoom appointment and review the return, have it signed through DocuSign and file electronically. During that process, if there was anything that kind of obvious you were overlooking, should be thinking about, we’ll point it out there. And then with the clients we’ll be doing the returns for — you’ll have an option to engage for us a mid-year tax projection where we can take a look and see if you’re withholding’s on target and if there’s any tax tools you’re not taking advantage and talk about that with them.

Tim Ulbrich: As we wrap up this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, I’d like to remind you about our tax planning and preparation service that we’re going to be offering to 50 pharmacist households in 2021. You can learn more about that service, including what’s offered, what’s included, how much does that service cost, what you should expect by going to YourFinancialPharmacist.com/filemytaxes. This is the chance to apply much of what you heard throughout today’s episode and really be able to apply that personally to your individual situation. What a great way to get 2021 off to a great start. So again, that’s YourFinancialPharmacist.com/filemytaxes. You had a chance to hear from Paul on today’s episode, hopefully you got some insights into his expertise, what he’s able to provide, and certainly has adequate experience working with many clients over at YFP Planning. As always, if you liked what you heard on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast, please do us a favor and leave us a rating in Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show each and every week as that will help others find the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast and hopefully benefit from the education and the material that we do each and every week. And of course, I wish everyone a happy and healthy New Year. Looking forward to 2021, and I hope you all continue to join us on this journey as we all strive towards achieving financial freedom. Have a great rest of your day.

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YFP 183: How Amanda and Holden Created Freedom by Paying Off $100k of Debt

Posted on by yfpadmin

How Amanda and Holden Created Freedom by Paying Off $100k of Debt

Amanda and Holden Graves join Tim Ulbrich to talk about their journey paying off $100,000 of student loans and other debt in just a few years. They share their strategies for aggressively repaying their debt, how they were able to effectively work together as a couple, and what lies ahead for them and their financial plan now that they are officially debt free.

About Today’s Guests

Holden Graves is a pharmacist working for a behavioral health hospital in Texas. He enjoys utilizing data to help problem solve and fix workflow issues. His passion is for disrupting the current healthcare model and focusing on improving patient outcomes.

Amanda Graves is a food scientist who enjoys working in the kitchen. She has a passion for cooking and loves that she can combine science and cooking to create delicious products on an enormous scale.

Amanda and Holden are excited to share their story to help motivate and inspire other professionals on their debt payoff journey.

Summary

Holden and Amanda Graves share their story of accumulating, navigating, and ultimately paying off $100,000 of student loans and car debt in a few years. Holden, a pharmacist, and his wife Amanda, a food scientist, were able to get through their undergraduate programs without acquiring any debt by working, scholarships, in-state tuition, and money from his grandfather. They took steps to minimize their debt burden when Holden went to pharmacy school by attending an in-state school and working. Holden was able to graduate with $80,000 in loans and about $20,000 in a car loan.

Holden and Amanda prioritized discussions about money as a couple before they were married and feel that it built a great foundation in their marriage. They learned a lot about each other and discovered that they had slightly different outlooks on their feelings toward their debt. Amanda was more risk averse and wanted to pay off the debt as soon as possible. On the other hand, Holden was comfortable paying it off over 5 or 10 years while focusing on increasing their investing assets. They compromised and decided to still pay off the debt aggressively over a couple of years while also putting money toward an emergency fund, house down payment, and into their retirement accounts.

To pay off the debt, they relied on automating their finances and refinancing their student loans to get a lower rate. Now that they are debt free, they feel that they have freedom and options and are going to continue saving for retirement, funding smaller goals like vacations, and focusing on increasing their invested assets.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Amanda and Holden, welcome to the show.

Holden Graves: Thanks, Tim. Happy to be here.

Amanda Graves: Yeah, thanks for having us.

Tim Ulbrich: I recently ran across a blog post on the scope of practice titled “How One Pharmacist Paid Off $100,000 of Student Loans and Other Debt in Just a Few Years,” and after reading that article, I was inspired by your story and wanted to bring on not only Holden to share about his journey in pharmacy, school, pharmacy practice, debt accrual, which we’ll talk about here in a little bit, but also bring Amanda on the show as we know that this ultimately for the two of them was obviously a joint decision in how they were going to approach this debt and how they were going to approach the rest of the financial plan. So I really appreciate you guys coming on to share this story. Now before we jump into the specifics of your debt-free journey, how you did it, how much you had, what was the secret to success, what does this mean for you guys going forward, I’d like to start by hearing a little bit about your backgrounds and the work that you’re doing today. So Holden, let’s start with you. Tell us a little bit about your pharmacy career background, how you got into a pharmacy career, what was the interest, where you went to school and the work that you’re doing right now.

Holden Graves: Yeah, that sounds perfect. Yeah, so originally I’m from northwest Arkansas, so near where the University of Arkansas is. So what really got me interested is I actually in high school, one of my favorite teachers actually read an article to us about pharmacists and kind of the need for pharmacists as the population continues to age. So that was kind of what sparked the interest in me, and I went and shadowed — my uncle actually owns his own pharmacy, so I went and shadowed with him and just loved the rapport that he had built with his patients. They all came to him and had questions for him and trusted him just as much as their physicians. And so I just loved that rapport that he built. So that’s what got me interested. I went to the University of Arkansas for my undergraduate, where I met my lovely wife. And then went to the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences for pharmacy school. So I did my four years there and in the middle of pharmacy school, I got married to my wife. So that was just an amazing experience from that point of view. After school, I actually applied for residency, but I didn’t match with anywhere. So that was kind of interesting, kind of left me scrambling. Luckily, I was able to find a job at the Children’s Hospital in Dallas, where I started and worked there for three years and then now currently at a behavioral hospital, still in the Dallas area.

Tim Ulbrich: Very cool. And you know, I hope here, your story there, Holden, for our listeners and if we have students that are listening, especially those that are in their fourth professional year, getting ready, end of 2020, submitting applications, getting ready for residency interviews, thinking about the matches, it’s overwhelming, right? And I think that just hearing your story about yep, the match was not successful maybe by what you had determined success would look like in that time, but I’m guessing through persistence and other opportunities and doors that opened up, you found yourself in the niche working in behavioral health. Real quick on that, like from the experience of not doing residency, how were you able to find yourself in a position like this? And ultimately, what was successful for you to be able to land a position that others may hear and say, ‘That’s a job that typically does require residency.’?

Holden Graves: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there’s no small amount of luck that happened. I got into the Children’s Hospital. It was kind of an entry-level pharmacist position, so I was mostly in the operations side. So that part, he basically was only looking for new grads, so that worked out that I was able to get in from that avenue. And after that, I just kind of worked my way into the good graces to where I became the pharmacist in charge of one of the smaller pediatric hospitals. And so that kind of positioned me well as just having that experience of going through and dealing with the nursing leadership and the physician leadership that then ultimately allowed me to transition into the behavioral health side as well, where I’m also serving as a pharmacist in charge. So.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. Congratulations. I think paving that pathway is something — we need to hear more of those stories because I think we sometimes fall into the trap that if I don’t do A or B or C, it doesn’t mean I’m going to have these other opportunities. And there’s certainly many other stories out there such as yours. So Amanda, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Amanda Graves: Most definitely. So my background is actually in food science, which is awesome. So I went to the University of Arkansas, where I met my husband. And so graduated from there, and I immediately got into the food industry. And so my background’s a little bit diverse between quality assurance but majority of my career has been in research and development. And then I also dabbled in sales in the food industry for awhile, kind of on a technical sales side. But currently, I work in the culinary department for a restaurant company. So I get to manage kind of the food and culinary side from a science perspective, which is really great for me to be able to combine — I love food, and I love to eat, so I get to combine the culinary arts with the food science side and just make things come to life on a mass scale.

Tim Ulbrich: What a unique career path. When I read some of your background of combining science and cooking, I was like, heck yeah! I mean, that’s awesome. I think one of the reasons I enjoy cooking so much is just, you know, that bringing in some of the science and understanding it. It reminds me of some of the pharmacy training. I think there is so much both art and science in cooking. So how did you find yourself in that career path and even having an interest in that area?

Amanda Graves: It really worked out well. So my high school had a culinary arts magnet program.

Tim Ulbrich: Cool.

Amanda Graves: So I did culinary training for the first three years of high school and then senior year, I was an intern in a hotel kitchen, which was an absolutely incredible experience. But with that, I also learned I didn’t want to be a chef. And just through seeing that, I was like, but I still love food and also in my high school, I was in the science magnet program, and I took chemistry for two years because I just love chemistry. And so just kind of thinking about how I can combine my love of science and food, I just kind of stumbled upon food science, and it really just is the perfect combination.

Tim Ulbrich: I love it. And before we go on to talk more about your financial journey and your story, which I’m confident is going to motivate, inspire other pharmacy professionals and others listening on their own journey and their own debt payoff, what they’re working through as well, I have to know. I don’t hear the thick Arkansas accent that I have heard from other guests on the show that have graduated from UAMS or Harding. What’s the deal? Are there like levels of Arkansas accent?

Holden Graves: Yeah, there’s — up in the northwest corner of the state where the University of Arkansas, we kind of more have the less southern and then as you get closer into Little Rock and the southern part of the state, it gets a lot thicker. Amanda’s also actually from Dallas too, so she doesn’t have that from Arkansas.

Tim Ulbrich: OK. That explains it.

Amanda Graves: So I definitely don’t have a southern accent. And on Holden, it only comes out on certain words occasionally but otherwise not too much.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, I’m thinking of other guests we’ve had on the show that are doing some awesome things, debt repayment, real estate investing, others in the Arkansas area, and it was definitely a thicker accent.

Holden Graves: Yeah, that’s more the southern part of the state.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. Well, let’s jump in. Paying off $100,000, student loans and other debt in just a few years, and so we’re going to talk about how you did that, how you accrued it, how you paid it off, why you did it, what was the strategy. So Holden, kick us off here. Was this a majority or all of your student loan debt? Tell us about the amount and also the position and how you got into that.

Holden Graves: Yeah, absolutely. So I guess it depends on who you’re talking to on whose debt it is. So according to me, it’s all of my student loan debt. According to my lovely wife, it’s all of our student loan debt. So it was mainly my schooling that accounted for all of that. So as far as the actual student loan debt goes, we were about $80,000 in student loan debt. But in the middle of pharmacy school and then right after pharmacy school, we actually purchase two new cars. And so at the lowest point, we had about $100,000 in total debt.

Tim Ulbrich: OK. So about $80,000 in student loans, about $20,000 in two cars. That brings us together to that $100,000. Now, I’m sure many of our listeners hear $80,000 and say, “I wish I only had $80,000 in student loan debt,” which you know, it’s unfortunate that I even have to say that out loud, but that’s the reality, right? So we have Class of 2020, we now have the median student loan debt that is north of $175,000. I’ve often talked and worked with pharmacists that exceed that or perhaps even couples that have more on top of that, so $80,000 — I don’t want to mitigate what you guys have done. I mean, it’s incredible. But my question there is what was the strategy? How were you able to keep the debt load I guess “low” of $80,000 compared to what we see out there as the normal?

Holden Graves: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so we were very intentional — or I was very intentional early on whenever we were accumulating the debt. So luckily, we were both able to graduate undergrad with no debt, so it was just pharmacy school that I needed to finance my way through. But I just still wanted to take out the minimum that I possibly could. So I really only took out enough loans just to cover tuition. I never took out anything extra to cover expenses or rent or anything. I had a little bit saved up because I actually worked in a pharmacy in undergrad and saved up some money there. And then while I was in pharmacy school, I did still work as well. So I still was — that was basically able to cover my rent and food payments were basically coming from what I was able to work. So that’s kind of the way we did that. And then just going to our in-state school, University of Arkansas, is one of the lower cost programs, so just trying to stay as low cost as we possibly could with that was a big key.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, multi-prong approach, I think that’s a good strategy. A little bit of strategy in where you go to school, in-state tuition, as well as being able to work and some other things that can help reduce. And as our listeners know very well, whether they are in the debt accrual or debt paydown phase, anything you can do to reduce that indebtedness while you’re in school is going to pay dividends obviously from what you don’t have to pay back into the future. So in the article that you wrote and I referenced earlier in the show, you mention that while you were still in pharmacy school and before you were married, you had discussions about money, which I think and I’ve talked about on the show before is so important for every couple to be doing as early as you can, having some of these big discussions around money, here, we’re obviously talking about debt but of course it’s much bigger than that. So Amanda, tell our listeners about those conversations, you know, how they went, how you felt about the debt even though it wasn’t your own debt but was going to become your collective debt, how those conversations went, and what you ultimately discovered about each other through those conversations.

Amanda Graves: Yeah, most definitely. So we both knew that a great foundation in marriage is communication, and we also knew that financial stress can one of the major stressors in a marital relationship. So we wanted to start those conversations really early on, just to make sure we were on the same page and kind of had a strategy. And then for my personal perspective of coming in, you know, I was all-in, I was very supportive of Holden and going to pharmacy school and that included the student loan debt that came along with it. So I — as Holden mentioned earlier, I very much saw it as our debt, not just his debt. And so together, we needed to kind of make that plan to address it. But like you mentioned, a lot of those early conversations, we got to learn a lot about each other and just how we viewed money and kind of those different backgrounds that we had from a financial perspective and kind of blend those together to make a plan so we had that even before we were married, which helped just to kind of continue to address that as we were kind of going through the process.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. I think conversations are important, as awkward as they may be at first or however you break the ice, you know, I think the outcome is incredibly valuable, not only on the debt repayment part, but of course as you guys know, from living this, this is just one part of the financial plan, so having open communication here hopefully will translate to other areas as well. Holden, for our listeners that perhaps find themselves in a situation where they’re carrying a big debt load, maybe a serious relationship, haven’t yet had that conversation, maybe they’re feeling a little bit of guilt about hey, I’m bringing this debt into the relationship, I’m not sure how someone’s going to perceive this, any words of wisdom or advice that you would give them here in how you were able to approach this subject? Or was it just a natural conversation that really came to be between you and Amanda?

Holden Graves: I think the — just the foundation of our relationship and just the trust that we were able to give to each other that she was open to hearing exactly what it was. And the main thing is that I didn’t want this to be like me v. her or anything like that. Like I wanted us to come together to try and tackle the debt together and try and do everything. So I didn’t want to take her feelings out of the situation, and I wanted to take her advice as well because she’s much smarter than I am. So I definitely, I wanted to bring us both on the same page because it’s a lot easier if we’re both know what we’re heading towards as opposed to two people at odds with each other.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And that is a good segue into one of the questions I like to ask individuals such as for you guys as you’re going through this journey together and have chosen an aggressive debt payoff strategy is what’s the purpose? What’s the reason? What’s the why behind this aggressive debt repayment? And we’ll talk in a moment about exactly how you did it, but I think that question is one that I talk often on the show about it’s so important to answer that. And I don’t necessarily believe there’s one right answer, but we know there’s options, right? So you guys could have taken out this $80,000 in student loan debt, you could have taken out 20+ years or you could have aggressively paid it off like you did, whether that’s in the federal system or with a private lender. So tell our listeners — and Amanda, I want to start with you, and Holden, feel free to add on from there. Tell our listeners about what was the purpose. What was the why behind this aggressive debt repayment strategy?

Amanda Graves: So for me personally, which in my answer might vary a little from Holden’s, but for me, the why was just the stress of just having that debt kind of hanging over us, I am personally very risk-averse. And I just try and avoid anything that would either be risky or cause me more stress. Really, it was just the fear of it just kind of looming over everywhere. And I just wanted it to be gone. I just wanted it to be completely gone as fast as possible. And I was ready to do kind of whatever we needed to do to get there to kind of move on to what life would look like after the debt was paid off and just be able to have not that standing payment of the loan every month but being able to kind of free that up to have a little more flexibility in the future.

Tim Ulbrich: Holden, what about you?

Holden Graves: Yeah, mine was kind of along the same viewpoints of it’s just the stress of it hanging over you. Less so of the stress that it was hanging over me and more so of what it was hanging over Amanda. So I just could see the way that she just kind of just did not like the stress and I just knew that that’s just something we needed to get out of our lives as soon as possible. I was kind of more on the train of, you know, kind of doing the five- or 10-year repayment and just kind of letting it drag out and be invested. So kind of my viewpoint was let’s work on getting our invested assets up as high as we can as early as we can. So that’s kind of where the compromise came in. If it was up to Amanda, we probably would have had it paid off in that first year. So we kind of settled somewhere in between so that way we could make sure that we were maxing out some of our investment accounts, going about it that way as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think compromise is such an important summary of what you just said. You know, I think some of our listeners may hear $80,000 and their natural tendency may be hey, I’m going to take that out, low interest rate, as much as I can take it out long. Again, there’s not a wrong answer, depending on somebody’s interests and how they feel about the debt. And I always say it’s the numbers plus the emotions. And both of those are really important, right? So I like what you said, Holden, you know, you may have leaned toward one strategy, but when it’s causing stress or anxiety, I think this is an area — and I say this with emergency fund as well — there’s places to defer, and there’s places where you maybe push someone to come more to the middle or maybe an area that they’re not as comfortable with. And I think this is one when you’re talking about the stress and when you’re talking about some of those other emotions that can come with this debt load, probably not the area to be pushing somebody, even if mathematically you could make an argument that hey, if I put more in investing, it may mean more in the end. So kudos to you guys for working through that.

Holden Graves: Yeah, and don’t think I didn’t also try that approach too. But it did not completely get rid of the stress from her point of view.

Tim Ulbrich: I can see the conversation of like, hey, here’s the compound interest calculator, and look at the numbers, and what if we did this? What if we did that?

Holden Graves: That’s exactly what I tried to do.

Amanda Graves: Yes, we did go over that.

Tim Ulbrich: So I want to build on something, Holden, that you said. You know, I heard you say investing was a priority. Many of our listeners are often trying to balance student loans, investing, emergency funds, paying off a car debt such as what you mentioned, saving for a home, starting a young family, making sure they have the right insurance policies in place, the list goes on and on. And I think that can be very overwhelming for folks. And there’s kind of different strategies of sometimes you balance a lot of these, sometimes you focus in on one, depending on the goal, depending on the timeline, again, depending on the math, how somebody feels. So talk us through your strategy in terms of how you approached the debt alongside of investing, alongside of emergency funds, and I know you guys currently have a home, so also being able to save up for the down payment on a home. How did you bring those issues to the table and then determine how you were going to allocate funds into what priority?

Holden Graves: Yeah, so basically we just kind of came and sat down to be able to discuss what our goals are. We actually do a monthly check-in, meeting, just a financial checkup every month so that way we can make sure we can see what we’re — we track all our spending, so we see what we spent on, how much we’ve got left over for the month and if there’s anything we need to adjust for the next month and the next year and then just also be able to talk about our goals and what goals we have. So it was kind of just that approach of just getting to the table and seeing everything. So of course mostly from Amanda’s side, it was we need to pay off the car loan, we need to pay off the student loans, and she was also a little bit like a down payment for a house because we also wanted to get into a house. And then big into the emergency fund as well, so that was kind of the other part. And so then of course I agreed with all of that. Also saving just as much as we could in our retirement accounts, so we started off just a little bit over the match and then just kind of slowly racked up over a year or two to be able to max out our 401k’s.

Tim Ulbrich: And I’m guessing our listeners may be thinking what I’m thinking, which is, you know, you’re making it sound very easy. But even when you look at that number, I mean, $80,000 or $100,000 and some over three years, people will do the math, $100,000, 36 months, those are big monthly payments. And so it wasn’t just the student loan debt or the car debt. It was also the down payment that you were saving for a home, it was also investing for retirement, all of those things need cash, right? And at some point, you’ve got to figure out how we can lives off of less than we make so we can free up cash to be able to achieve those goals. So tell us more, Amanda, like what was the strategy or what was the success, the secret sauce, whatever you want to call it, for you guys in terms of being able to keep expenses down so you could ultimately free up cash and put that cash towards the goals. What were some of the sacrifices or cuts that you guys had to make?

Amanda Graves: One thing I think that we learned — and I think Holden mentioned it earlier — that we got married in the middle of pharmacy school, so for those first two years of marriage, Holden was in school and I was working. So we kind of had figured out how to live off of one salary. And then even though we were super excited, you know, come graduation and Holden getting a job, we really tried to live within the same means that we had been for those previous two years and then just kind of bringing the new paycheck that we were getting to go towards all those different things of meeting our financial goals. So I think that was the big thing was still living off the same budget and then just freeing up the rest to our financial goals.

Tim Ulbrich: And how did automation, Holden, if at all, play a role here? You know, we talk a lot about on the show, once you’ve got a plan, really one of the best things we do is get out of our own way to make sure the plan actually happens. And automation is often the vehicle, the system, that will allow that to happen. Did you implement kind of automatic withdrawals towards these payments? Or how did you make sure your goals were being achieved while you had other competing priorities for your expenses?

Holden Graves: So of course, I went to the University of Arkansas, so Joe Baker is —

Tim Ulbrich: Yes.

Holden Graves: Was there, and he was —

Tim Ulbrich: Shoutout to Joe.

Holden Graves: He was my professor. Yeah. I know, I still need to get his book, so don’t tell him I haven’t gotten it yet. He really kind of set us up, so that was a really good foundation. And then at the time, he was recommending “Automatic Millionaire,” so it was before y’all had come out with your book. And so that was a big one that I just read that and just like loved this of these people that just kind of never really made that much, and they just saved automatically and paid off stuff and all of a sudden, they had three homes and like $1 million in the bank just because they were automating everything and not thinking about it. So that was a big thing for us. So everything we had was automated. We had our 401k’s automated, we had basically everything coming out of my paycheck, so my paycheck would get deposited every other Thursday. And Friday, we had all of the automatic drafts going towards our different savings accounts and also towards our loan accounts as well.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome. And we’ll link in the show notes “The Automatic Millionaire” by David Bach. We’ve talked about that on the show before. Also to Joe Bake himself, “Baker’s Dirty Dozen: Principles for financial independence,” excited about that new resource coming out. And I also would add, to our listeners that want to learn more about this concept of automation, one of my favorite books — you’ve probably heard me talk about it before — “I Will Teach You to Be Rich” by Ramit Sethi. He does an awesome job of actually getting in the weeds on kind of what could this look like from a system standpoint and how can you implement it? And I think for many people, the idea of it seems more complicated than the actual implementation process. So I’d recommend those resources. Before I ask you guys about hey, what’s ahead now that we’ve got this debt paid off, we’re in the home, I wanted to, Holden, for a moment go back to the student loans. I didn’t ask you what the strategy was there. Was it staying in the federal system, pay them off? Was it refinance the loans? And any advice you would have for our listeners who are trying to make that distinction or that decision.

Holden Graves: Yeah, absolutely. So we went with the route of refinancing. So I never really thought about getting it to filing or attack this separately or going into the weeds on that. I just looked at what our tax return was and tried to plug that into the REPAYE and PAYE options and just realized that we’d actually be paying more towards the debt doing that than just the standard 10-year payments. So that was never really an option was doing that. And then I didn’t really want to be tied down with one particular company or one particular field, so I didn’t want to be in the Public Service field of five years in, I’ve realized, wow, I don’t really like this, I didn’t want to be stuck in that type of situation. So since we were going to be so aggressive with it, we decided to refinance and got a much lower rate on the refinance. So just kind of went at it that way and paid it off just as much as we could, as quickly as we could.

Tim Ulbrich: That makes sense. And so you know, as we now look at the future and what’s ahead, we’ve got an emergency fund in place, we’ve got student loans paid off, check, we’ve got the cars paid off, check. Obviously you’re in the home, so the down payment happened, check. And you were investing for retirement along the way. So I’d like to hear from both of you, both some of the numeric goals of what’s ahead, where do you guys want to focus on in terms of the x’s and o’s in your financial plan and then perhaps some more of the softer sides of the financial plan, you know, what are you hoping this means for your family going forward? So Amanda, you want to kick us off?

Amanda Graves: Yeah. So now that we’re kind of moving forward as we’ve checked all those boxes, I’ll let Holden speak to more of the financial strategy because he’s better with that. But —

Tim Ulbrich: He’s the nerd. He’s the nerd, right? Let’s be honest.

Holden Graves: That’s it.

Amanda Graves: Oh, he totally is. He totally geeks out on finances, which I love. And he does really great at kind of the future planning where I’m more of the close-in, monitoring the monthly budget. So I’m kind of the —

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Amanda Graves: The monthly person whereas he kind of does everything else. But it’s just been really great to kind of be a partner and seeing those different strategies kind of come to life. And what that means too is it kind of gives us the freedom to do what we want both now and in the future, you know, with saving for our retirement but also we have smaller goals too. We have automatic savings for vacations. So if we decide we want to take a family vacation, it won’t be a big financial stress because we created that savings just so that way, we can do little trips or activities and different things like that.

Tim Ulbrich: And Holden, give us the, you know, what’s the next 3-5 years look like? What’s success look like for you guys going forward now that you’re past this $100,000 of debt?

Holden Graves: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so we’re just kind of focused right now on just kind of accumulating as much as we can. It’s just kind of where like we don’t have specific 3-year to 5-year goals. We usually go one year at a time. But for the most part, it’s just 3-5 years, we’re still going to get 3-5 years of invested assets to be able to cover us for if anything were to happen or if anything — if one of us needed to take a break or walk away from a job that’s stressful. So that’s kind of the biggest things there. One thing Amanda didn’t mention, though, was actually when we paid off our student loans. We actually paid off our student loans in October of 2019. And our son was born at the end of November that year. So about a month difference, so it actually was — it worked out perfectly because it was just amazing because we really didn’t feel any richer after we paid off the loans because immediately Amanda went on maternity leave. But it really gave her the freedom to take the full 12 weeks off and make sure that she could go back.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Holden Graves: Now especially, she could decide later on whether she wants to take a smaller role with what she’s doing or just step away altogether. It just kind of gives us the freedom to have those options. So we’re just trying to build up that so that it takes a little bit of the stress off Amanda too so she’s less worried about if she wants to step away or just slow down a little bit with work.

Tim Ulbrich: Freedom and options. Couldn’t have said it better. I think, you know, for you guys, this certainly is the case. You’re moving into what I would say is the offensive part of the financial plan and really being able to build some of the wealth into the future, obviously achieve other goals that you want to achieve and have the freedom and option if for whatever reason, you didn’t want to work or work part-time or to be able to replace some of what would come from a traditional W2 income. So congratulations on the progress of what you guys have made. I’m excited for what lies ahead for you guys as well. And I really appreciate you taking the time to come on the show to share your journey.

Holden Graves: Yeah, thanks for having us on, Tim. It was a pleasure.

Amanda Graves: Thank you so much.

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YFP 182: How This New Practitioner is Leveraging a Team to Invest in Long-Distance Real Estate

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How This New Practitioner is Leveraging a Team to Invest in Long-Distance Real Estate

Young Park, new practitioner and real estate investor, joins Tim Ulbrich on this week’s podcast episode, sponsored by APhA, to talk about his portfolio, why he likes real estate investing, how he got started, what has worked, what hasn’t worked, and why and how he invests in Kansas City while living in Hawaii.

About Today’s Guest

Young Park currently serves as an Ambulatory Care Clinical Pharmacy Specialist at the VA Pacific Islands Health Care System in Hawaii. He moved to Hawaii for this specific position after completing a PGY1 residency at the VA Sierra Nevada Health Care System in Reno, NV. He completed his undergraduate study at the University of Georgia, then completed the Doctor of Pharmacy program at Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine (PCOM) in Georgia.

Young started learning about financial independence and investing after making the far move to Hawaii. His big “why” is to help provide financially for his parents and to be able to spend more quality time with his family and loved ones. He’s working towards financial independence through investing in out-of-state cash-flowing rental properties using the BRRRR strategy.

When he’s not working, he serves at his church on the Sound Team, enjoys Hawaii’s beautiful beaches, and learns about personal growth and investing.

Summary

Young Park, a 2017 pharmacy school graduate, stumbled upon real estate investing on YouTube and quickly discovered how powerful of an investment vehicle it can be. Young was originally interested in investing with stocks but decided to move forward with real estate investing because he felt it has the best return on investment and because of the long-term benefits like appreciation, tax benefits, and mortgage pay down.

In less than 2 years, Young has acquired 3 rental properties in Kansas City, Missouri while living in Hawaii. He decided to invest in real estate thousands of miles away for a few reasons. To start, the cost of homes in Hawaii is extremely high and it’s difficult to find a good real estate investment deal. Additionally, he connected and began working with a mentor that invests in the Kansas City market and was able to lean on him for advice while also leveraging the team that was already in place until he could build his own.

Young also digs into how he’s using the BRRRR method on his investment properties, how he’s getting the capital to fund them, how he analyzes a potential deal, how he’s formed a team to support him, the challenges he’s faced along the way, and how real estate investing is supporting his financial why.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Young, welcome to the podcast.

Young Park: Hey, Tim, thanks for having me.

Tim Ulbrich: Super excited to have you on. When I learned about your story as a new practitioner, active in real estate investing, getting started, taking that first step, we’re going to talk about your journey, what’s worked, what hasn’t worked, why you’ve been doing what you’re doing, what your plans are going forward, and I think this episode is going to be incredibly valuable to our community that is interested in learning more about real estate investing or perhaps even for those that have started looking to build upon the portfolio and the work that they’ve done so far. So Young, before we jump into your real estate journey, tell us a little bit about your background into pharmacy, how you got into pharmacy, what interested you, where you went to school, and the work that you’ve been doing since graduating in 2017.

Young Park: Alright. Hey, first of all, thank you again for having me here on the show. I am so excited to share my story today. So man, about myself. I don’t know how far I need to go back. But yeah, as a child, I guess in high school, I actually wanted to go into music, like into music engineering and recording and playing in a band and stuff. However, my parents were definitely against it. We’re immigrants, so we moved from South Korea back in ‘98. And you know, my parents moved to the States so that we can have better opportunity for me and my sister and just kind of live that American dream that they were hoping for us. They just heard about pharmacy from their friend, how their sons and daughters went to pharmacy school and they graduated, got a awesome deal with a brand new car and a brand new BMW. So to them, this was the American Dream for us. Eventually, I kind of followed that step. I went to — I finished my undergraduate study at the University of Georgia, and then I went to the Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine in Georgia campus for my pharmacy school. So I think one of my professors, Dr. Brett Rollins, was on the show before.

Tim Ulbrich: Yes, he was.

Young Park: Yeah. So yeah, I went to that school and then after that, I completed my PGY1 at VA Sierra Nevada Healthcare System in Reno, Nevada. And after that, I took this current position that I have with the VA Pacific Island Healthcare System in Hawaii as an ambulatory care pharmacist.

Tim Ulbrich: So Georgia, Nevada, and then Hawaii, right?

Young Park: Traveled quite a bit, yes.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. Well, cool. And so we’re going to talk in a little bit about how do you effectively invest as a real estate investor in Hawaii and why you’ve chosen to go out of area to do your investing in Kansas City, and we’ll talk about why that’s important as we may have many listeners that say, “Hey, I’d love to get started with real estate investing, but you know what, my market isn’t really conducive to that,” high cost of living area, whatever be the reason. Obviously you ran into that, and we’ll talk about how you selected the market that you did and what has been difficult and what has worked with doing some long distance investing. But before we get there, talk to us about for you, why you like real estate investing as an investing vehicle for you going forward and one that you want to build your plan around. Obviously our listeners know there’s lots of different ways to go about investing, traditional accounts, 401k’s, 403b’s, IRAs, obviously they could invest in brokerage accounts, they could start their own businesses, real estate and within real estate, many different ways that you can do this. Why, for you, is real estate an investment vehicle that peaked your interest?

Young Park: OK, so I started getting interested in investing initially into paper assets such as stock, like most people, because that’s the easy one to get into. And I was learning more about that while I was watching YouTube videos, honestly. And I accidentally stumbled upon YouTube videos on real estate investing like Bigger Pockets and some other YouTubers who invest in real estate. And it really got me interested in real estate investing because to me, that had one of the best return on investments, and it’s a hard asset where you can physically obtain the asset. You know, paper asset is great, but it’s almost like a made-up money in the computer space somewhere that determines like this is worth that much. So yeah, that’s why I really got into real estate investing.

Tim Ulbrich: And how do you as an investor — you know, one of the benefits people always talk about with real estate of course is long-term appreciation, tax advantages, you know, that you may not see in more traditional investing — how do those things factor into you wanting to prioritize real estate investing?

Young Park: Yeah, so to me, if I were to compare real estate investing to stock investing, it’s like getting a really high-yield monthly dividend while the tenants are paying down your mortgage. And like exactly what you said, you know, you’re getting the long-term appreciation of the property, you’re getting tax benefits through the appreciation, you’re getting the mortgage paid down, also you’re getting the cash flow — and your cash flow over the long term is going to increase year by year because your mortgage will stay the same and your rent will increase.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and of course — and we’ll talk about your specific properties and how you crunch the numbers. Obviously, we’re talking here under the assumption of you do this in a way that works and is financially viable and of course being able to analyze properties, determine what is a good deal, what is not, is very important as we look at the benefits of real estate investing. Now, before we get into the x’s and o’s and specifics of the property, I like to ask folks such as yourself, what’s the motivation, what’s the purpose, what’s the why? Because we talk all the time on the show about our mission of wanting to help as many pharmacists as we possibly can achieve financial freedom, but I know that that word, “financial freedom,” can mean something different to everyone that’s listening here to this episode. So for you, Young, as you think of that concept of financial freedom and how real estate investing fits into that goal, tell us about what your purpose is, what your why is, what your vision is, and why real estate is really just a piece of being able to achieve that.

Young Park: Great question. So why is extremely important. For most people, they really break it down. The money is never the goal of achieving whatever you want to achieve. It’s actually the time and what you can do with the time that you’re able to obtain through building wealth. So for me, my biggest why is — I will say two things. First of all, I want to provide for my parents financially and also to achieve financial freedom for myself, the time freedom. So my parents moved our family of four to the States with the hopes and dreams of providing a better life and opportunity for me and my sister. Neither of them went to college, and they still don’t speak much English at all. And they did manual labor well into their 60s to provide for us so that we can complete our education. All they knew was to work really, really hard for paychecks and bring food to the table. And because of this, I’m extremely privileged. So because of what they’ve done for us, my main why on investing is for my parents, so that I can help them to retire and live comfortably. And my other why is to be financially independent for myself and for my soon-to-be wife Jamie and our family that we’re going to have so that we can live on our own terms and have options. You know, God forbid, but if something were to happen to my family, I want to be in a position where I can just drop everything and go and be with my family as long as I need to. And building that financial freedom and wealth allows you to have that option.

Tim Ulbrich: And Young, what I heard there, which I love — and I hope our listeners will take heart — is the conviction in which you share that to me tells you’ve No. 1, put thought behind that but No. 2, really likely then provides clarity when you’re making your financial decisions, you know within what context, what frame you’re making those decisions because you’ve thought about, reflected upon, that why. And what I heard from you there was wanting to be able to provide and care for your parents, wanting to get to a point of financial independence such that if you were to wake up tomorrow and for whatever reason, you weren’t able to earn the income that you currently earn, that you would be able to move on without stress and continuing to move on with the rest of your goals and the things that you like doing. And the third thing that I heard was time. And my follow-up question there — because I hear a lot of entrepreneurs talk about time, I hear a lot of real estate investors talk about time, but I very rarely hear people talk about why is that time important. What do they want to do with that time to have that option, to have that freedom, with their time or to gain back more of that time? So for you and your family, more time means what?

Young Park: So more time means spending time with your family and your loved ones. So you can do whatever you would like with whoever you want, you know, going wherever you want to be and how you want to spend your time. You know, for me, growing up, my parents were both working really hard, so they weren’t around home that much. We were still extremely grateful for them, but I want to be a parent that’s there for my children whenever they — let’s say they have a play or they’re playing sports or we get to just enjoy our weekend time or go on vacation together, and I just want to be able to do all those things. Working W2 jobs, it’s great. You get great benefits, and I love my job. But you know, you’re still restricted to certain schedules. You have to meet certain quota, and you know, your schedule can always change — yours and your wife, right? Your spouse, you have to line up our schedules together and all of that’s considering I think that financial freedom and being able to build more time to spend with the loved ones, that’s all I want.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s great. And here, we’re talking about real estate investing being one vehicle in which you can achieve that goal of financial freedom, which of course means being able to do the things that you just said were most important. And so let’s jump into July 2019, you purchase your first property. So two years out from school, I want our listeners to hear, you know, obviously you’re at a point where making that transition post-residency into your first job and you pick up on real estate investing as an opportunity to pursue. So July 2019, tell us about that first property, where it was, what the property was like, what you purchased for it, what you spent to kind of get it ready for tenants, and then ultimately, what it means for you from a rental income standpoint.

Young Park: Sure. July 2019 was when I purchased my first property in Kansas City, Missouri. So I have a whole story about getting into Kansas City market, right, from Hawaii. But just to talk more about the property itself and the investment itself, it was purchased off-market. I actually got it from a wholesaler on Craigslist, believe it or not. Yeah. I didn’t know that was a thing. I was looking into a bunch of wholesalers group on Facebook, you could find that. I spoke with a bunch of realtors to get on their list, and you know, I was also searching on Craigslist to see if there are other owners that wanted to sell their properties or potentially wholesalers. So I found that property on Craigslist from a wholesaler. He actually posted it for — are we allowed to talk about numbers?

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, go ahead.

Young Park: OK. So he listed the property at $65,000. And I offered $50,000. Of course, I kind of lowballed him. But he got back to me saying, “Hey, if you have the ability to close within five days, all cash, we can do it at $55,000.” And for a new practitioner coming out of pharmacy school, a year of residency, and you have about a year of actual job under your belt, you don’t have $50,000 in addition to me having a ton of student debt. So getting the cash was a — is a whole other story that I need to talk about. But I was able to pull that off, I had $50 in cash, so I close on the property, and we actually negotiated the route crosses. He actually wanted to close out within five days because he had a family reunion coming up the following week, so he just wanted to be done with it. We actually renegotiated so that we got it for $53,000 instead of $55,000. So I got that property at $53,000. And I actually have my mentor, who that’s how I got into Kansas City market. And I used his contractor, who’s been vetted, and they’ve been working 3, 4, 5 years together. So that contractor knows exactly how to turn a property, how everything should look, and I had my mentor, CJ, to be the project manager so that he’s just kind of managing everything and I’m just giving the rehab costs, I guess, on weekly, biweekly withdrawals so that I’m just continually funding it. And once I get some photos saying oh yeah, these were done, then I send in my next draw.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Young Park: So I did all that, and everything ended up — the rehab costed about $42,000, I want to say.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Young Park: So I’m all in $95,000. So I got that rented out — that was a whole other story about getting it rented out because it was during the holiday season, right around this time actually, and in the Midwest, I’m sure over there, it’s freezing cold, snowing, and no one wants to move during the holiday season.

Tim Ulbrich: Not a great time to find a tenant.

Young Park: It’s not. It’s really not. But you know, right after the new year, so it took a couple months, stayed vacant for a couple months, but I was able to get it rented out in January for $1,000 plus $25 in pet fee.

Tim Ulbrich: So $1,025. So just to rehash these numbers, you purchased it with some negotiation from a wholesaler, $53,000. $42,000 on the rehab, so you’re all in for $95,000. And you’re renting it for just over $1,000. And I’m guessing mortgage, interest, taxes, insurance, probably little less than $800?

Young Park: Correct, correct. But at that time, I didn’t refi yet.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Young Park: So I didn’t have any mortgage payments at that time. So after I was able to rent it out — so the strategy I used is the BRRRR strategy, right? So I bought it, I renovated, I rent it out, so I was able to refinance out and it appraised at $142,000.

Tim Ulbrich: Oh, wow. OK.

Young Park: Yeah. So there was a pretty decent chunk of spread there. So I was actually able to pull all my cash out and then some. So it covered all my purchase, my rehab, and then I think I — after closing costs and everything, I think I pocketed about $5,000.

Tim Ulbrich: $5,000. And for our listeners, we’ve talked about the BRRRR method on the show before, and I’d reference our listeners back to other episodes on real estate investing that we’ve done as well as the Bigger Pockets website, podcast, lots of great resources. They’ve got a book solely on the topic of BRRRR. But you know, the goal here — which Young’s story is a great example of that — is to with the cash investment of the property, be able to pull all of that money out or all that plus some, I guess ideal, or if not all of that, as close as you can, so that you can move on and repeat the process into the future, which you did in a second property, which we’ll talk about here in a moment. But I want to break down this one with a little bit more detail and get into some of the weeds here. When our listeners hear $53,000 purchase, $42,000 in rehab, $95,000 all in, rent a little over $1,000, how did you analyze or evaluate as you were projecting not only purchase price but rehab, potential rent? Talk us through your analysis process and determining what was or was not potentially a good deal.

Young Park: So yes, so you want to start before you purchase it, you want to start with the end in mind. You need to start from the ARV, which means After Repair Value. So you want to know what the property would appraise at at the end of the day. So from that point on, you want to figure out what the rehab costs would be and then that gives you what your purchase price can be. So that would be your offer price. So once I do that, I kind of analyze it. So let’s just say for this property as an example, I actually estimated this property to appraise at about $120,000-130,000. So I actually got really lucky. And $120,000-130,000 is actually — you know, if I really think about it, it’s on the conservative side. I always calculate it in the worst case scenario. And if everything works — if it makes sense for me, even if I were to pay like $10,000, $20,000, $30,000 out of pocket, would I be OK with that? And if I am, then I go with it because that’s the worst case scenario, and you can only get better. Whatever you do better, that’s all extra sauce on it, you know what I mean?

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Young Park: And so yeah. So I do that. So I analyze the property by finding the ARV. And then I estimated the rehab with me and my mentor because he’s done it for so long that he could kind of look at the pictures and see what the estimate would be. And it actually aligned pretty much what we thought it was going to be. So we got that rehab, and we were OK with the purchase price because I was thinking $53,000 purchase, about $40,000 rehab, and appraise it for $120,000. So that’s roughly about 75% of that $120,000 for me to do a full BRRRR.

Tim Ulbrich: Got it.

Young Park: The rehab was a little bit more, but the ARV was a lot higher than I thought. So I was able to actually do a whole run deal on my first deal.

Tim Ulbrich: And that makes sense, Young, if you had projected your numbers at an ARV that was $120,000-125,000 and it came out at $142,000, it makes sense when our listeners hear that you were able to pull out all your cash plus some because of the higher ARV, what ultimately came in at the appraisal when you went to go do the refinance. The other thing I wanted to touch on here, if I had to pick what I think are probably the two most common objections to getting started with real estate investing, they would be that one, I don’t feel like I have the knowledge or experience and two, I don’t have the cash, right, because of whatever. I’ve got student loan debt, I’ve got all of these other priorities of which we talk about on the show all the time, and I can’t necessarily save up $50,000, $70,000, $100,000 to be able to put down on a property. So talk us through how you addressed those two things. You mentioned student loan debt, so I’m sure our listeners are curious, you know, how did you go down this path while you still had student loan debt and how did you reconcile that? But how did you address this knowledge piece? And you’ve talked a little bit about a mentor. And then how did you address the capital and being able to have enough money to get started with investing?

Young Park: First of all, the knowledge portion. So you can get a lot of education just from — and they’re all available online. You can go on YouTube, you can listen to podcasts like the Bigger Pockets. You can read books. I read at least three books from Bigger Pockets and other investment books. However, these to me are just knowledge. And knowledge is important. And people say knowledge is power, but I really think it’s knowledge is just a potential power. It’s only powerful if you are able to take actions and apply it, right? If you just learn, learn and learn, it’s just information. But that doesn’t really get you anywhere. So you have to be able to take that action. And for me, just taking that mentorship was the action step that I needed. Through that mentorship program with CJ, I learned a lot. I learned every week. It was like a weekly phone call. But the biggest thing is that he guided me so that I can actually take the action that if I didn’t take that mentorship and have all these knowledge, who knows if I’d even have a property under my belt right now? Or maybe I bought a turnkey product. But yeah, to me, just learning, keep learning and just taking that step, leap of faith, to get into that deal, get to that first deal, that’s the biggest hurdle.

Tim Ulbrich: And how did you find, Young, that mentor? Because I think a lot of our listeners would say, “Hey, I’d love to have a Yoda in my life on the real estate side.” What steps did you take to say, to move from ‘I’m interested in real estate investing. I’ve read this book, and I’m ready to act and I need to find some people that can help me.’ Talk us through that process.

Young Park: Yes. So I started attending meetups. So after learning, learning, learning and Bigger Pockets, they always talk about, “Oh, come to our meetups.” People are always hosting in different cities. So I actually went on their website, found a meetup there, so I went to one of those meetups, and I learned a lot. And one of the guys that I met there actually pointed out to CJ and Jasmine, telling me that, “Oh, there’s this couple from Hawaii that invests in Kansas City. You should go check them out.” So I went to their meetup, and CJ was actually giving a presentation on investing out-of-state versus locally in Hawaii and how the numbers make so much more sense going out of state. The housing price here is ridiculous. The median housing price here is about $780,000.

Tim Ulbrich: Sheesh.

Young Park: Yeah, and your rents probably won’t even be .5% Rule, if you were to call that.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Young Park: So it just made more sense to go out of state. And they were doing exactly what I wanted to do, so I went up to go talk to CJ one-on-one and told him like, “Hey, I’m in this position right now. I really want to invest in real estate out of state as well.”

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Young Park: And then that kind of led to us working together.

Tim Ulbrich: So that’s the knowledge/mentor piece. And I think the meetups is a great idea. We’ve been featuring more stories on this show with the hopes that we can connect more investors that can serve as a supporting community for one another. So that’s the knowledge piece, which led to a mentor, which led to some execution. What about the capital piece? I think many pharmacists may be in your shoes, three years out, five years out, seven years out, “Hey, Tim, I’ve got a boat load of student loan debt. I’d love to do real estate investing,” or, “I don’t even have student loan debt, but I just can’t imagine being able to save up $50,000-100,000.” Here, if you’re buying a property for $53,000, you’re doing a rehab for $42,000, you’re all in for $95,000. And the BRRRR method means that you’re bringing $95,000 of cash to get that done. Was that your money? Did you partner with other folks? How did you manage that?

Young Park: Yes, so I definitely didn’t have money. I had some money that I was getting from a W2 job, but this was actually one of the challenges or action steps that I needed to take during the mentorship course so that I can raise capital. So I had to go out and ask family and friends. I honestly — I think I raised $90,000 — I used some of my money too — from family and friends. And I got a ton of rejections. I asked over 30 people. And just to kind of explain to them what I’m doing, but you know, to them, of course I got a ton of rejections because I had zero track record.

Tim Ulbrich: Sure.

Young Park: I had no track record. People who invested in me — invested with me, invested in me because of our personal relationship. They just know me personally and they know my character. So I was able to raise that. And I think another thing that — I keep coming back to the mentorship. Because I had that guidance to show them like, “Hey, I’m not just going there blindly. I have the people there. I have someone who’s guiding me through the whole step,” I think that helped as well. So I was able to raise $90,000.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. Which makes that deal possible.

Young Park: It does. It does.

Tim Ulbrich: So and before we talk about your second property, your most recent property — unless you’ve done more since we touched base last — I’m sure our listeners are as curious as I am when somebody hears, “Hey, Young’s living in Hawaii, he’s investing thousands of miles away in Kansas City,” you know, what challenges — we’ve talked about the opportunity, right, obviously you have a more affordable market, you’ve got a group there that has connections through your mentor, through contractors, so you’ve got some track record and experienced people that know the market. So the opportunities I think are obvious. But the challenges may be not so much, or folks may hear that and think, eh, it’s not for me. You know, I can’t see the property, per se, I don’t know it, I’ve got to trust people, this is my first time. Talk to us about some of those challenges with the out-of-area investing and how you were able to overcome those.

Young Park: Good question. Yeah, of course. I think the biggest challenges that people can’t get out of their head is not being able to see and feel, touch the property. I personally have not been to Kansas City yet. And I did get a third property recently, by the way.

Tim Ulbrich: Oh, cool.

Young Park: Yeah. So just working remotely and you have to be able to — at one point, just go with your gut so you can trust people. And I’m not just doing that blindly. I’m starting out with the people I know. So I start with let’s say a realtor or I start with my mentor CJ, and he’s giving me referrals so I try this other contractor, which I used for my second property and now again for my third property. I’m just slowly building a network, building relationships, building my team. And when you’re able to do that, you’re putting a lot of pressure off of you. Right? You have people that are doing the jobs for you. You know, really, at the end of the day, you really don’t have to see the property. Don’t attach your emotion to the property. It’s the numbers. But of course you still need to figure out how can you trust those people? And you just — at one point just have to trust them, right? They’re not intentionally trying to rip you off. They’re good people trying to make their living as well. And we’re giving them opportunity, they’re sharing their experience by working with us. So I think it’s almost the same. You just don’t see them face-to-face. But working remotely has been a good system for me.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and that’s one thing, Young, that I think about, you know, one of the takeaways. And I’d recommend to our listeners Bigger Pockets, David Green has a book, “Long Distance Real Estate Investing: How to Buy, Rehab, Manage Out-of-State Rental Properties.” That was the takeaway I had from that book was it in part forces you to think about your systems and your processes because there’s certain things you just can’t do, right? You’re not getting on the plane often to go to Kansas City. Not happening.

Young Park: Nope.

Tim Ulbrich: So you’ve got to have a team there that you trust, that you have systems for communication, that you have systems for vetting contractors, for paying those invoices. Then obviously with more experience will come more of a track record, and I think that will become a magnet to other investors and other partners along the way as well. So tell us a little bit about your second property, which I knew of, April 2020. Didn’t know you added the third, so congratulations. Tell us a little bit more about those and the numbers as you’re willing to share.

Young Park: Sure. The second property, as you can imagine, was April 2020. Right in the start of COVID. So that deal was so — I was scared, honestly. I thought about backing out from the deal multiple times. But I’m so glad I went with it. So this property was actually listed on the MLS, Multiple Listings Service. I saw that on Zillow, and I spoke with the realtor who posted it. And it was actually a HUD property, which if I’m trying to define it, I think it’s a property that was purchased with an FHA loan. And the person who purchased it couldn’t make the payments, so it was like a foreclosure. So it was bank-owned property. And that property actually had some plumbing issues, so it wasn’t eligible for a bank- or like Fannie Mae-backed loans.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Young Park: So you only — you could only buy it cash. So that was actually an opportunity for investors like us because most people who are paying down payments wouldn’t be able to afford that. Right? So that property was listed at $79,000. And I used a current contractor that I have and I had to trust him. I had not used him before. We had some ups and downs, but at the end of the day, he did me right, and we are working on the third property together.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome.

Young Park: Those are the things you actually have to work on as an investor or with anyone, in fact. You know, people have different expectations. Right? So you know, his expectation and my expectations were different. But we talked it out like, “Hey, this is kind of like the finished product that I would like.” He’s like, “Alright, let’s do that moving forward.” So anyways, going back to my second property, so it was about a $25,000 rehab. So $79,000, $25,000, what is that? Like $104,000?

Tim Ulbrich: Yep.

Young Park: So that was my all-in. And I actually got it rented out, and it was rented out in September, I believe. Or maybe before. Oh, I’m sorry. I think it actually rented out in July. And this one was a lot higher because it was during the summer, so I got a tenant in there for $1,100 plus two pets, so $1,150 per month for the rent. And then I was actually able to refi out of that last month, less than a month ago, and it appraised at $144,000.

Tim Ulbrich: You like that $140,000 range.

Young Park: I didn’t go for that one, but it just ends up being that way. And to me, like when I was doing that conservative analysis, I was expecting it to be somewhere between $120,000-130,000.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Young Park: So with this one, I was actually expecting to have some of my money left in the deal, which was totally OK with me. But I ended up doing another home run. Maybe I have a couple thousand dollars in the deal at the end of the day.

Tim Ulbrich: So after the second one, if I’m doing my math right here, you’ve got about $286,000 worth of appraised property, and monthly cash flow in rent of just over $2,100, almost $2,200.

Young Park: Right, the gross rent is that.

Tim Ulbrich: Great. And then break down the third one for us.

Young Park: Third one, so I just got it under contract maybe — ooh, maybe two days after I refi’ed out of the other one or before. Somewhere around the same time. And oh man, this was an interesting one. So it was listed on the MLS since March. And it was initially listed at $115,000.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Young Park: And no one — there was like absolutely no interest on that property because it was still available by the time I purchased it. So every month, they’re cutting down by maybe $10,000. And in November — or actually, toward the end of October — they listed it at $85,000.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow. OK.

Young Park: Yeah. And I offered $65,000.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Young Park: And they came back to me saying, “Hey, we could do it for about maybe $75,000.” And I said, “There’s no way I could, I’m going to do it.” And this one actually was not an owner that was selling. It’s a huge investment firm that’s just purchasing these properties from auction, and they just keep the ones they like and they sell off the ones they don’t. So this was obviously one of the ones they didn’t like. So they were selling it, and I told them, “Hey, it’s $70,000 or nothing.” And then we agreed into the deal. So we got it under contract at $70,000. And then I sent in my contractor and got the estimated bid for it, and it was a little bit higher than I thought because they had a really good photographer, I guess, taking really nice pictures that looked a lot better than what it actually was.

Tim Ulbrich: OK.

Young Park: So yeah, my bid came back a little higher. So I went back to them and said, “Hey, I want another $10,000 discount or else I can’t do it.” And eventually, after a couple negotiations, they did settle for $60,000.

Tim Ulbrich: Awesome.

Young Park: So I got it from $85,000 down to $60,000. And my estimated rehab is about $40,000 on it.

Tim Ulbrich: And you’re still doing the rehab right now or starting that?

Young Park: Just starting, uh huh. We just — I believe we just finished demo, and they’re buying materials. Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: OK. And what’s your estimated After Repair Value on that one?

Young Park: Right around the same, $120,000-130,000.

Tim Ulbrich: OK. And we won’t jinx it, but likely it could come in the $140,000s. So.

Young Park: Right, right.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, that’s crazy. So you got it at $60,000 through negotiation after you got the estimated bid higher than you thought. You said that it was originally listed at what? $115,000?

Young Park: Right, back in March.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Young Park: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: Crazy. You know, what I love about this too, Young, too, it’s just a methodical, steady approach to getting that first deal done, learning from it, building from it, developing the team, you know, that’s the value of the BRRRR method. You’re getting your cash back out or as much as you can. Obviously through the refinance, going onto the second, going onto the third. And I suggest you’re just getting started. You know, my next question, as I suspect if you and I were to talk in three years, it’s probably not three properties but maybe it’s 10 or 20 properties and you’re probably helping and coaching others along this as well, is I mentioned two objections that I often hear, which were, “Hey, I don’t have the money to get started,” and, “I don’t feel like I have the knowledge or the experience to get started.” The third one I would add to that would be time. So as I hear you kind of going through all this, I think, man, where are you finding time to do all this not only in getting the deals done but then also in managing them? Talk to us about your approach to saving time, especially once you have them rehabs done and then you’re obviously managing these properties longer term. What have you done to minimize your time that’s invested?

Young Park: Good question. So first of all, I live in Hawaii and invest in Kansas City. So we are four or five time zones behind, so I start really early in the day. I usually wake up around 5 a.m. and get started and spend maybe an hour or hour and a half either analyzing or talking to my property manager or realtor or wholesaler or sending out emails and working on that. So I do that. Some days I come home and then if I see some properties that came through the email, I analyze them. And the other portion as far as maximizing my time, I have my property manager, who is managing everything. I would not recommend anyone to get into managing their own properties because your time is important. Yeah, you might be saving 8-10% of the rent, but you know, if you’re analyzing everything correctly and have that number included into your analysis, hey, it all works out. Another thing is I think more recently, I found a realtor that I really like, who is willing to write these low offers because most realtors think it’s a waste of time with the offers that they don’t think it’s going to go through. And you know, most of the time, it doesn’t. They’re correct. But if they find an investor who can actually close on the property, even though they’re on the lower price point, we could do multiple deals with them over the years. So that’s like an incentive for them as well. But kind of going back to that, I have my realtor, I just tell him, “Hey, John, I want to offer $60,000 on this property.” And then he just sends me the documents, and I just sign it online and he forwards it. So that saves a lot of time for me.

Tim Ulbrich: And I’m seeing a theme here of team. You know, you mentioned the mentor, you mentioned the agent that is willing to work with you on that, you mentioned the property management piece, you mentioned the contractors that you’ve gotten comfortable with, so I sense the team here has been incredibly important. And my last question for you is if we were to fast forward five years, what does success look like for you as it relates to your real estate investing?

Young Park: You know, I have to put more thought into that. I definitely — so personally for me, I don’t have x number of properties that I want because you know, number of property doesn’t mean really much. It’s really how much cash flow you’re getting. I would like to have maybe $5,000 worth of cash flow and I would like to go part-time if I can to free up time a little more and spend more time with my family and my loved ones and also be able to help my parents. I think that’s where I would like to be within five years. Sooner the better. We’ll see.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. And I love how you brought that full circle. I think it’s easy, especially as you’re having some success, you know, you kind of keep going, keep going, but what’s the purpose? Again, back to why you are doing this in the first place. And I sense for you that the time was important, the financial independence was important, the being able to provide for family and making sure that you’re investing in good cash flowing, profitable properties that will allow you to achieve those goals. So Young, thank you so much for taking time to come onto the show to share your story as a new practitioner that’s been active in real estate investing out of the area, what’s worked, and I think your story is going to be an inspiration and perhaps a guide for some that are recent graduates or have been out for awhile and wanting to figure out how they can get started in real estate investing. So again, thank you for coming on the show.

Young Park: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Tim.

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YFP 181: How YFP is Different Than Most Financial Planning Firms

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How YFP is Different Than Most Financial Planning Firms

Tim Baker, YFP co-founder and Director of Financial Planning, talks about his journey becoming a financial planner. He discusses why all financial planning is not created equal, how and why YFP Planning services differ from traditional firms, and the importance of fee-only, fiduciary, and comprehensive distinctions.

Summary

Tim Baker, CFP®, joins Tim Ulbrich on the show to dig into how YFP Planning was born and how and why it is different from many traditional financial planning firms.

After working for a traditional firm himself, Tim realized that there were a lot of gaps that he wanted to fill in supporting people on their financial planning journey. Tim decided to launch his own firm and began working with pharmacists from the start. After meeting Tim Ulbrich, Tim Baker joined the YFP team and merged his financial planning firm with YFP. Now YFP offers comprehensive, fee-only financial planning for pharmacists.

Tim breaks down several reasons why YFP Planning is so different from traditional firms. To start, YFP CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNERS™ carry a CFP® designation. He explains that the barrier to enter the financial planning world is fairly easy and many people pass as financial planners without much education or experience. However, having a CFP® designation means that the YFP Planning team went through more rigorous training and testing and had to lock in between 4,000 to 6,000 hours of experience.

Tim shares that YFP Planning offers comprehensive financial planning. Many financial planners only focus on life or disability insurance or investments, however YFP Planning supports every part of your life that carries a dollar sign. YFP Planning offers support, guidance, and financial planning in the following areas: debt management, savings, insurance, investments, tax planning and filing, retirement, estate planning, budgeting, student loans, open enrollment navigation, credit, education planning, FIRE, real estate investing, and buying a home, among others.

Lastly, YFP Planning offers fee-only financial planning. This means that clients are paying for advice, not for the sale of a product like most traditional firms. In addition, YFP Planning follows the fiduciary standard. By law, YFP CFPs® are bound to act in your best interest.

If you’re ready to take stock on where you are and where you want to go in 2021 and create a financial plan to support your life plan, book a free discovery call with YFP Planning today.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Tim Baker, excited to have you back on the mic. How’s everything going?

Tim Baker: Things are going well, yeah. Looking to turn the page here on 2020 fairly soon. So good to be meeting with you and Tim and our crew to figure out what YFP looks like in 2021, get a plan in place. So been a tough year but excited to look forward, look ahead and what’s to come for our team here in the future.

Tim Ulbrich: Man, I’m with you. It’s been a tough year. Looks like the first half of the year may be tough as well. But hopeful that we’re going to turn the corner here with the pandemic. Obviously we know many of our listeners, community has been impacted by that. And hopefully our community who’s been on the frontlines is going to get a little bit of a break here and some relief and hopefully get some time to refresh. I know we’ve talked with many pharmacists that I think are probably feeling burned out given the pressures, the circumstances, trying to manage work, trying to manage home, but we’re thinking of you all often, appreciate what you guys do, and yeah, we’re excited about 2021, lots of exciting things planned for YFP. And here, today, wanted to talk a little bit more knowing that we have grown a lot in the last few years, knowing that we obviously have many of our community members that are aware of what we do at YFP Planning, some that are not, and knowing that one of the things I find myself often talking about when I speak on the topic of personal finance is hey, when you’re looking for a financial planner, it’s really important not all financial planners and financial planning services are created equal. And it’s important to understand what you’re looking for, what’s a good fit, what’s not a good fit. And so we wanted to spend some time here today talking about why we do what we do, what some of the terms mean around fee-only comprehensive financial planning, how we got to this point, and ultimately what’s included in the types of planning that we do. So we’re going to do that. But Tim, before we dig into that, I think it was all the way back maybe Episode 015, somewhere around there, we had you on to chronicle your career path, your journey into financial planning. But it’s been awhile. And I don’t want to assume that the listener here in 2020 necessarily listened to Episode 015, so take us back into your trajectory into financial planning, all the way back to obviously your time at West Point, what you did from there, and then how you got into the work that you’re doing now and offering fee-only comprehensive financial planning to pharmacists.

Tim Baker: Oh man, I feel like it’s been awhile since I kind of told this story. So I’ll try to dust it off a bit. I feel like now it’s more about like the team that we’ve assembled and everything.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: But yeah. I took a very kind of a different route to becoming a financial planner. I — like to your point, Tim, out of high school, you know, I was pretty set on the United States military academy at West Point. And my trajectory for my career I thought would be very much intertwined with service, military service. So I worked my tail off to get into the academy. The world changed very — very quickly when I was there my freshman year, I think my first day at West Point was July 2, 2001. And obviously, a couple months later, you know, 9/11 happened and really changed the tone of what our job was and why we were there. So you know, I graduated four years later with a degree in international relations, you know, again, thinking that my career would follow more of a service track and commissioned as a Second Lieutenant and as an Armor Platoon leader, so tanks. But I quickly found out that, you know, sometimes you have a plan and life happens, you get punched in the face, and that plan goes out the window. So unfortunately, I was involved in a training accident that kind of derailed my military career, and I medically was separated from service. And I found myself a civilian, not really knowing what I wanted to do and really lost for a bit. So I backpacked Europe for about four months, saw 20-some odd countries and came back and started a career in material management, actually in Columbus, Ohio, where we recently moved back to. So my job was to basically move — manage the department that moved boxes from A to B for a big retailer here in Columbus. So I did that for a span of years and then moved out to southern California to work for a construction company kind of doing the same type of stuff of moving materials from A to B. And I would say it was around this time that I kind of had a — kind of a quarter-life crisis. I liked my job, but I felt like it didn’t like me. I was working way too many hours for a six-figure income, which was great. I didn’t really necessarily get a warm and fuzzy of what I was doing from a day-in and day-out. And you know, I had a relationship that kind of ended at that time and I was just not living the best version of myself. So I took some time off. I took probably about 9-10 months off to kind of figure out what I wanted to do. And I kind of came to this epiphany, kind of from some of the input from two different family members that said, “Hey, we think that you’d be actually really good as a financial planner.” And I didn’t really know anything about it. You know, finance had always interested me, but I decided to pursue that path and I moved from southern California back to the East Coast to work with a solo practitioner in Baltimore, Maryland, who was actually a Naval Academy grad, and basically started at the very bottom of the ladder. And I was more or less a glorified assistant and took probably a third of the pay of what I was making previously to really kind of introduce — or reinvent myself and really get into this profession of financial planning.

Tim Ulbrich: Well, I’m grateful — and I mean this genuinely — as my own financial planner but also knowing the impact you have had on the pharmacy community that you found this career pathway. I mean, I think it’s safe to say — and we’ll talk more about the team and the services that this transition and quarter-life crisis, whatever you want to call it, one of the results has been really putting a positive dent on helping pharmacists in managing their personal finances, obviously debt is one part of that, debt management, student loans, but also the rest of the financial plan, like we talk about often on the show. And I genuinely think the work that you did and the work that you continue to do has had an incredible impact, not only on our community but on others as well. So you’re working with a solo practitioner, and you decide to make a jump to start your own firm. So why, why, why take on that risk? Why take on that journey? And what was enticing about going down that path?

Tim Baker: Yeah. So again, not really knowing what I was getting into — and I think sometimes I talk to pharmacists, and they say the same thing when they go to school. I think the big difference is the debt that’s often taken on, you know, with becoming a pharmacist, which is a good and a bad thing from a barrier to entry perspective. So I completely just shifted and pivoted from what I was doing from a professional standpoint. And you know, to kind of back up to that, when I was trying to reinvent myself, my resume was written in a way that like that I just kept going back to material management. So I really need to do something bold, and it actually came down to networking. I know, Tim, you talked about that, to kind of get into that firm and really be super vulnerable to say, like, I don’t know anything. Like when I got into material management, I used to say like I didn’t really know what a forklift was. When I got into financial services, like the only thing that I really knew about financial planning was you would hire a person to help you, and I knew that credit card debt was bad and investments were good and buy a house, that was a good investment, which is what my parents had said. That might not necessarily be true. So I get into this world, and I’m working with a solo practitioner, and it’s very much kind of like you work with people who have hundreds of thousands of dollars and you’re working with them to help them with insurance and their investments and maybe give them a little bit of tax advice and things like that. And I quickly realized that me as a 20-something-year-old, I didn’t resonate — I wasn’t really resonating with the people that I was working with. You know, I was supporting the guy who was working with a lot of like pre-retirees and things like that. And then I quickly realized that there’s a lot of gaps.

Tim Ulbrich: Right.

Tim Baker: So after I started the process of getting my licensing and working on my CFP and getting that in place and getting everything that I needed to actually do the job, I started working with pharmacists fairly early on after that because I had friends — most of my friends in Baltimore were pharmacists, one of the guys I went to West Point with, one of my best friends, married a pharmacist. They were very much champions of me and what I was trying to do. And I found with pharmacists and that type of client that most financial planners will say, “Well, you have $150,000-200,000 in debt. I can’t help you. Come back to me when you have a couple hundred thousand dollars in your investments, and we’ll go from there.” Or they would say, “We can help you. We’ll invest your IRA, we’ll sell you a crappy insurance product. And then we’ll talk to you once every three or four years.” And when I looked a the student loans, in particular, I’m like, you know, and you’re not getting supportive advice, like that’s not good. You know, most financial planners — I think it’s gotten a lot better — but most financial planners, at least at that time, would say, “Oh, don’t worry about the loans. They’ll figure themselves out. And invest or buy this product.” And that’s not good advice. We say with pharmacist-type debt, it’s not hyperbole to say it’s a six-figure decision on which way you go. And I think you and Church would attest that like if you would have went a different path for your loans, maybe like a forgiveness route, it would have been a different result. So I was starting to see this gap in the market, and you know, a lot of it was like, “Hey, find your niche.” And I kind of had stumbled into this niche already of working with pharmacists. And it just steamrolled from there. So I stumbled upon a group called XY Planning Network, who was a group of fee-only CFPs, Certified Financial Planners, that really focused on Gen X and Gen Y, who are typically those individuals that maybe have a lot of debt, maybe decent incomes, but are not being serviced the financial planning sector. So that was really the main drivers as I was thinking like, hey, like I think I can do this better, more efficiently, more targeted to who I was serving anyway. And that’s what I decided to do.

Tim Ulbrich: So you started the firm Script Financial.

Tim Baker: Yep.

Tim Ulbrich: And I actually have in my hand right now as we’re recording right now my Script Financial pen, which is just an awesome, awesome piece of history. So you started Script Financial, and then you meet this other chump named Tim who knew this other chump named Tim that was also talking personal finance.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: And the paths started to align, right?

Tim Baker: Yeah. So I think one of the other reasons that I decided to go out on my own — and it wasn’t necessarily feasible in the model that I was in — was I wasn’t fee-only in that first, in that solo practitioner. And I think that’s a good distinction to make. So what I often tell a prospective client today when I talk to them, I’m like, for me, like whether you work with us or not, you know, that’s obviously a decision you need to make. But to me, table stakes are are you a Certified Financial Planner? So unlike a PharmD, a JD, an MD, you know, those are professions where there’s an education requirement, experience requirement, an ethics requirement. To become a financial planner, there’s none of that. You take what’s called the Series 65, you study for 8-12 weeks, and then you take a test, you know, and you can do exactly what I do or what we do today. So there’s often a lot of sales people that parade as financial advisors but that are really just hawking crappy products, to be honest. So sometimes people get upset with me, but it’s like thinking about like a real estate agent. Like the barrier to entry to become a real estate agent is really low. Now, to be a good real estate agent, you have experience and all those — good ethics and things like that. But the CFP designation is something that’s really, really important. And then the other thing that’s kind of table stakes is really if you’re fee-only. So this is really confusing, and it actually confused me because I was probably about a year, year and a half into my career as a financial planner before I even knew what fee-only was. And fee-only is where you basically separate the sale of a product like an insurance policy or an investment with advice. So anytime that you have an overlap between the sale of product and advice, there’s a conflict of interest because I would say, “Hey, Tim, you’re my client. If you buy this insurance product, it’s better for me in terms of commission, maybe not so great for you.” And the same thing with the investments. So in the fee-only world, you are — we’re what’s called “product agnostic.” So if I say, “Hey, buy this life insurance policy,” it’s not because I’m enriching myself anymore. It’s because that’s what I believe is a tool to better protect yourself and your family. So I kind of use the medical analogy. It’s why physicians are not supposed to get kickbacks from pharmaceutical companies because it taints their ability to prescribe medications without strings. The difference in our profession, you know, “profession,” is not only is it legal in our profession, it’s prevalent. So there’s something like 95% of advisors out there can sell you a product that enriches themself, i.e., commissions or kickbacks, that a lot of times the advisor doesn’t know. So that was a main catalyst for me to move. I wanted to very much niche down. Most financial planners, they want to be everything to everyone. That’s not our game. So we are very niche to the pharmacy profession and really wanted to provide services that kind of ease those pains that they were having. And then the other thing is to put myself out as fee-only or as a fiduciary, meaning that our — we are legally bound to act in the client’s best interest, which most people, you know, if you say, “Hey, your advisor can put their own interests ahead of yours,” they would be surprised by that. But that’s actually the case. So yeah, once I made that leap, I started to network and to figure out how to get myself out there. I came across Your Financial Pharmacist on Twitter, and you know, I always say like, “Who’s this imposter Tim talking about personal finance and pharmacy?” And I read your stuff, and I really liked it. And it resonated, what you were saying resonated with a lot of the conversations that I was having with pharmacists at the time. And you know, I reached out to you, and we decided to meet in Bob Evans in Ohio, and I think our first collaboration was the podcast, which now has almost 500,000 downloads, I think is where we’re at right now.

Tim Ulbrich: So fun story for our listeners about the podcast. I was reflecting on this recently — and then we’ll get to the meat of what we’re actually talking about here — is we at one point, Tim — I remember it vividly. I was on vacation with my family, we were down in Hilton Head, we were actually working on “Seven Figure,” wrapping it up, and we’re like, man, what should we call the podcast? Like should it be, you know, like — I was thinking of like Mike and Mike on ESPN, which are no longer a thing, right?

Tim Baker: Right.

Tim Ulbrich: I was thinking about other names. And then, I mean, clear as day, you’re like, “Maybe we should call it the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast.” Ahhh.

Tim Baker: Yeah.

Tim Ulbrich: So sometimes, it just hits you in the face, and you know, you don’t know it. But it was a good time as we were getting that started.

Tim Baker: Yes, yes.

Tim Ulbrich: So we’re going to come back, I want to come back and break down a little bit further in a moment fee-only, fiduciary, comprehensive, and compare some of the terms: fee-only versus fee-based, fiduciary suitability, talk more about why that’s important. But take us for a moment down the path of — so you start Script Financial, we merge efforts at YFP, obviously we start the company, you’re kind of doing — not kind of — you are doing all of the planning. Obviously now it’s a team that really believes in what we’re doing and really embodies obviously what you have built and the beliefs that we have around planning. So what’s your current role at YFP? What’s the YFP Planning team look like? And what can folks expect from that team?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so my role at YFP today is a bit different than when we started. My role is Director of Financial Planning. It’s really more about kind of managing the RIA or the Registered Investment Arm, advisor arm of the business. So I manage the team that basically brings financial plans to the pharmacists that we work with all over the country. And I think we’re in like 38 states now. So it’s really managing that team and our process and making sure that we are delivering plans consistently and kind of with — in line with our belief system. It’s the business development, so like the prospect meetings. It’s the IT stuff, the HR stuff, the compliance stuff. You know, we’re now overseen by the SEC, which is good but also compliance can be a bit of a tough thing to crack. So yeah, my day-to-day is more, you know, managerial now and the great team that we’ve assembled, we now have two lead planners, Robert Lopez and Kelly Redy-Heffner, who basically are in Arizona and Pennsylvania, respectively. And these are the individuals that really quarterback the financial plans for our clients. And they have the help of a support system, you know, Paul is our Director of Tax, Kim, Tom and Heather are really support to them. And really my vision with financial planning is that it takes a village. Oftentimes, financial planners, they’ll have themselves and maybe another person in support. We kind of employ the diamond team model that is the group that supports the client’s effort. So that’s kind of the makeup of our team. And I’m really excited about the team that we have. I look at across — and obviously, we’re pharmacy-owned, which is very unique. But we have CFPs that are both married to healthcare professionals — Kelly’s married to a physician, and Robert, I think his wife Shirley is a psychologist — and they’ve worked in their own firms dedicated to helping healthcare professionals. We have an MBA, we have a CFP-in-training, we have an IRS-enrolled agent. So I really like the team that we have, and I think it’s imperative that the team is in place to really support the efforts of delivering the financial plans. And like I said, this is — I think, Tim, you struck a chord with talking about your experience and your initial blog posts, you know, five years ago, with Your Financial Pharmacist. And we’re seeing that year-in and year-out as more and more pharmacists raise their hand and really are excited about putting their financial plan in place and improving kind of where they’re at currently from a finance perspective.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely. And a shout out to the team, they have done incredible work and I think have been so integral to our vision of helping as many pharmacists as we possibly can on their path towards achieving financial freedom. And as I mentioned, Tim, I want to come back to digging a little bit deeper into comprehensive, fee-only, fiduciary. And I really like what you said, whether somebody ends up working with us or not, I think it’s really important that they understand what they should be looking for that will point them in the direction of the services that meet their needs and that have their best interests in mind. And I can attest to what you said earlier about it may catch many people off guard when they hear that about the variety of these services but also the realization that most legally don’t have to act in the best interests of the client and may be charging for services in a way that may not align with their interests or needs. And I know for me as a pharmacist when I first started that work and did some of the exploration into the types of services, that was certainly eye-opening for me coming from a training where it is drilled into us over and over and over again that your job as a pharmacist is you need to obviously take care of the patient, but you need to be acting in their best interests at all times. So when you say comprehensive, what does that look like? Paint the picture of comprehensive financial planning.

Tim Baker: Yeah. So when you go to school to become a CFP, which I guess there’s schools now. I feel like that wasn’t there even when I was doing it. But they have a curriculum that kind of follows really I think the six main components. It’s kind of your fundamentals, which you think about like debt management and savings, insurance, investment, tax, retirement, estate planning. And a lot of people, you know, the last one there is estate planning. What is that? So you know, just to break those down, again, when we talk to prospective clients, the things that we talk about for us, we go a little bit further. Like we look at like banking, like how you bank, your cash flow and budgeting. Most financial planners kind of provide kind of ongoing cash flow and budget support, they’ll say, “Hey, you’re a good saver or you’re not,” and that’s it. We provide — because it’s behavioral. And I think a lot of pharmacists were saying, like, “Hey, I just want to be efficient with this resource, this income that I have.” The big piece and the fundamentals are the student loan analysis, which a lot of financial planners, you know, there’s a stat there that says 70% of financial planners don’t advise on student loans. Obviously with working with pharmacists, that’s huge. And then really a savings plan. You know, most financial planners will say, “Hey, just put that in your emergency fund.” And I’m like, man, I just want more. There needs to be more than just that. So we take it a step further. We really try to line up in a savings plan what we’re actually trying to achieve with the dollars that we’re setting aside. But insurance is typically your life, your disability, your professional liability if you’re a pharmacist. We do a lot more I think with like employer-provided benefits, so we do like a lot of open enrollment optimization meetings, so hey, Tim, it’s open enrollment, it ends this month, like what do I do? And we just log on — because that’s a big part of your compensation package. Investments, so we manage the client’s investments both at their job, so like 401k’s and 403b’s. Most financial planners don’t do that. So we can actually do that for you. And also, at our custodian, we do that at TD Ameritrade, so IRAs, Roth IRAs, you know, kind of the back door conversions, that type of thing. The big thing that I think that — I think a lot of financial advisors will do — is kind of like a nest egg calculation, are you on track or off track? I feel like most advisors will say, “Hey, you need this amount of money,” and then that’s it. We kind of like zero it in on like you’re either on track or you’re off. So we do the nest egg calculation and we dial that back. Another big differentiator is that we do taxes. Most financial planners don’t. They’ll say, “Hey, work with this accountant.” And in my experience, that’s what we said in my last firm, there was never really any cross-planning between the accountant that we are sending them to and their investments or anything that they had going on tax-wise, which I think is a major misstep. And I think the other reason that we do taxes now, Tim, is that most financial planners don’t understand student loans and kind of the tax ramifications to student loans. And by proxy, neither do accountants. So I got tired of sending people elsewhere to do their taxes and then completely mess up the benefits of what we’re trying to do from a student loan perspective by not aligning the tax strategy. So to me, keeping that all in house. And then finally, the estate plan, do we have the proper wills, power of attorneys and things like that? So that’s where most planners begin and end. And when we say comprehensive, we mean comprehensive. We go through credit, so credit score, credit report, especially if we’re leading up to a big purchase like a home purchase. Because we work with so many — I mean, we work with people of all ages, 50s, 60s, 70s, even 20s and 30s — but because a lot of our, initially our clients we’re in their 20s and 30s, a home purchase was a big thing that they hadn’t figured out. And when I bought my first home right before the housing market crashed, I didn’t know what a home inspection was or what an appraisal was, what I should be spending, how to get financing, where to find a good agent. So we kind of do that from A to Z, you know, whether it’s using our concierge with Nate Hedrick, going through the home purchase worksheet of what they should be spending and what their must-haves and nice-to-haves are, helping with financing. It’s such a big thing that most financial planners are going to be working with people in their 50s and 60s that they’ve run that race already. So I kept seeing like mistakes on the home purchase, and I think I’ve made them, Tim, you’ve made them. And I’m like, there’s got to be a better mousetrap here that we can build. And I think that we’ve done that. Salary negotiation is another thing. I kept hearing like, “Ah, I just accepted a job,” and I’m like, “Well, did you negotiate at all?” “No, not really. I was happy to have the job.” And I’m like, “Yeah, I’m with you.” But I feel like — and we’ve had some clients on recently that have experienced that and how to negotiate and things like that, so like, I think that that’s another thing to be able to advocate for yourself. Real estate investing is another one. Most financial planners are not going to encourage you to do that because a lot of financial planners are really incentivized by you investing traditionally in your IRA, 401k, etc., not something like real estate. But we feel as a team that is a viable way to build wealth, has lots of good tax — it’s not correlated, etc. Small businesses, we work with a lot of pharmacy entrepreneurs, and we’re expanding our services there. Education planning, so hey, you have kids, how do we tackle that, more people are interested in the FIRE, Financially Independent Retire Early. So that’s a completely different way to tackle the financial plan. And I think the thing that we do differently too is most financial planners, they’ll say, “Hey, here’s a 30-page document of what you need to do.” We don’t do that. So we’re very much education-focused of like, “Hey, this is kind of what you need to know,” enough to make you dangerous but not enough to bore you to death and then recommendations, really looking through the lens of how can we help you grow and protect income, which is the lifeblood of the financial plan, grow and protect net worth, which means increasing the asset efficiently and decreasing the liabilities efficiently. Most financial planners just care about hey, I got you a great return on your investments in terms of the IRA. But they could care less about the $20,000 in credit card debt or the $250,000 in student loans. And I think that’s a big misstep. So it’s income, it’s net worth, while keeping your goals in mind. And I think I put them in descending order of importance. So income is important, not as important as net worth, but not as important as your goals. And what I typically say is, the client is like, we might work together for 10, 20, 30 years, and at the beginning of our journey, we might say, “Hey, Tim, you need $5 million to retire.” And that’s typically where you look at me like I have 5 million heads because it’s such a big number and way in the future that we discount back to the present value. But let’s pretend that we do work together for decades and you have $10 million. That’s a great accomplishment, it’s a great thing, but if you’re miserable because you haven’t achieved or done the things that you wanted to do in life, what’s the point?

Tim Ulbrich: Amen.

Tim Baker: So to me, the hard part about financial planning — it’s not the technical aspect just like you need to be technical to be a pharmacist, that’s not really the hard part. The hard part is the human element. It’s really threading the needle between what — your present day self and your self that’s 30 years older, 40 years older, in the future. And I feel like if you’re not — if you don’t feel that push and pull, we’re probably doing something wrong. So that’s it, you know. It’s using all of these tools that are in front of us and trying to work with a client in the most efficient manner that is delivering a plan that is, you know, the best version of what a wealthy life is to them. And that’s what we try to achieve here every day.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and as you say and I think articulate so well, it’s not just about the 1s and the 0s in the bank account, right? We’ve got to be thinking about the goals, we’ve got to keep that front and center. It’s got to be the framework from which we make decisions. And I think a fee-only fiduciary model allows a planner to invest the time and attention to putting goals front and center, even if that does not necessarily mean all the time that you’re dumping more money into investments, it might mean paying down debt, it might mean philanthropic assets, it might mean real estate, it might mean — insert any other goal that might not have a direct tie to compensation in a fee-only model but is the best for that client, for their goals, for the plan. And I think that’s the beauty of comprehensive, right, is you say all the time is that when it comes to planning and YFP Planning, comprehensive, anything that has a dollar sign on it, you want the planner to be involved and engaged with the client because everything impacts one another when it comes to decisions that are being made.

Tim Baker: Yeah, it’s true. And I think like — and I’ll invoke a conversation that I recently had, actually before we started recording this. We had a client that signed on with us early this year, and we were kind of doing a review. And their net worth when they started with us was like -$328,000 I think it was. And this was in February is when we actually like, you know, did I think our get organized meeting. Today, so we’re talking 10 months later, their net worth is -$188,000, right around there. So that’s a net worth increase of about $140,000 in less than a year. And again, I will stipulate — we were talking about compliance — this isn’t necessarily indicative of all results, all client situations, but I look at that, and I’m like, man that is great progress. That’s really — you know, we got the debt buttoned up, the investments are humming, they’re doing a lot better job budgeting and savings, but there’s — for one of the people in the marriage, like the work situation is almost to the point of being unbearable. And that to me is what’s on fire, it’s nothing really anything that’s really tied into the financial plan, it’s the anguish that she’s feeling with kind of her day-in and day-out job. And I’m like, we have to figure this out immediately because it’s just not sustainable. So like the 1s and 0s, like impressive, but like, one of the things we talked about early this year is to potentially look for a pathway out of her current position. And we just haven’t done enough, and then obviously COVID happened, but to me, like they’re wealthier than they were in a lot of ways, but in a lot of ways, we’re still stagnant. And I think it’s kind of making sure that all of those important pieces and those goals that are out there we’re working towards and we’re being — the word that we always say is we’re being intentional to that. So you know, to me, I think that’s what it’s really about. And it’s going to be different for everybody, right? And life changes. I have a lot of people that look at their goals and then 12 months later, they laugh because they’re like, they were in such a different place. So to me, I mean, I think part of this is like why we are so comprehensive in a lot of ways is maybe it’s ego on my part. You know, I think the finances permeate everything.

Tim Ulbrich: Absolutely.

Tim Baker: And I just — and for me, it’s like, alright, we would talk early on about salary negotiation. I’m like, I need to be a better resource to clients to help with that because you know, that should be something that pharmacists, our clients, are really putting themselves in a position to get the best deal that they can. Home purchase, I’m like, I really need to understand this from A to Z so when they make this biggest purchase of their life, they’re confident. And even like going into retirement, to talk about the other end of the spectrum, is I don’t think that financial advisors are really trained well to provide like a retirement paycheck and really figure that out. It’s all about accumulation in masses. But what happens when we then pivot into retirement? And not just the 1s and 0s and the mechanics of that, but also like what does a wealthy retirement look like? These are things that are I think a good financial planner is coaching and talking about to their clients on a continuous basis.

Tim Ulbrich: So I think the comprehensive nature, you know, as I’ve talked with many individuals, that resonates a lot with people, right? Because they understand that they’ve got multiple things going on. And I think with some background information, they can understand that the traditional industry may focus more on investments or insurance, but as you go down the list of the other topics, you gave the stat about student loans, not so much and certainly many others along the way, which we’ve mentioned here during this recording. So I think yes, I think many people will hear this and say, “Yes, comprehensive, comprehensive, comprehensive. I get it.” When it comes to fee-only, this is an area where I see people confused or perhaps sometimes get in trouble where they may work with maybe with an advisor that may advertise being fee-only but really come to find out that they’re fee-based. They’re not always in a fee-only situation. So tell us the distinction of that briefly between fee-only, fee-based, and why it’s so important. I know you’ve already mentioned, defined fee-only. But the fee-based specifically.

Tim Baker: Yeah, so when I was in my first firm and I was working with clients, you know, but when they do, typically for the planner or for the advisor, they kind of squirm in their seat a little bit because one, it’s not very transparent to the client. So like if someone were to say, “Hey, Tim, before you started Script Financial, how would you get paid?” or if a client would say, “How would you get paid?” I would say, “Pull up a chair because it’s going to take awhile for me to explain this to you. So in the fee-based model, what those advisors — and again, I don’t want to demonize, they’re good people — but again, like if I was a consumer, I would want to be in a position where I was treated as a fiduciary at all times or treated by a fiduciary at all times. So in the fee-based model, the previous model, if someone said, “Hey, how do you get compensated?” I would say, “Look, I could charge you hourly, an hourly rate like what an attorney does. I could sell you a mutual fund that pays me x% upfront plus a trail or a bigger upfront and no trail, so like an ongoing fee that basically takes away from the investment. I could charge you a percent of the assets that I’m managing, which is by and large what a lot of planners do. And even fee-only planners, that’s how they mainly do it. They’ll say, “Hey, you have $500,000, it’s 1%, it’s $5,000 a year.” I could charge you to sell you a life insurance policy, and typically those are the worst ones for you or better for me in terms of what they pay out. It could be an annuity. There’s just so many different ways to do it. It could be a flat fee. There’s so many different ways to do it, and it could be a combination of those too. So when I would work with like young pharmacists at first, I would be like, “Alright, well, I can charge you a flat fee for the financial plan, and then I’ll charge you x% of whatever I’m managing in terms of dollars, which is typically not a lot. And then I’ll charge you a commission to sell you this life insurance policy and this disability policy.” At the end of the day, it’s just so confusing to the consumer because they don’t even know what they’re being charged. And that’s why like — like when I talk to a lot of younger pharmacists, you know, I’ll say, like, “Who’s making the decision on who you’re going to hire as a financial planner?” And they’re like, “Well, it’s me, but I’ll talk to my parents about this.” And I’ll say, like, “Ask your parents what they pay their financial planner. They’re not going to know.” The first thing that my parents said to me when I decided to — after I was going through my quarter-life crisis and I’m like, I think I want to be a financial planner, they’re like, “Well, why would you do that? We have a financial planner, we don’t pay them anything.” And when we peeled back the onion, it was actually very, very significant of what they were paying. But it’s not an industry that’s known for being transparent. So in fee-only, you are not enhanced or enriched by any of the products that you’re selling. So if I sell you a life insurance product, I don’t get any commission for that. If I sell you a mutual fund or some type of investment, I don’t get any additional commission for that. So you’re paying for advice, not the sale of a product. And when I was in the other model, Tim, I would — you know, we would get taken out to lunch by mutual fund wholesalers that would show up in their fancy suits and take us out to an expensive lunch and show us these glossies of why their funds were so good. And they would say, “Hey, when your pharmacists bring money over, sell our funds,” wink, wink. So it’s almost like a drug rep almost — no offense to drug reps out there. But it’s almost like that type of relationship. And you kind of feel beholden to them, like, ugh, they took me out to a nice lunch. So it’s just kind of like icky. It was kind of like gross.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah.

Tim Baker: So by separating the advice from like the tools and the products that you use, you’re not in bed with anybody, so to speak. So you’re really clear to advise on the client’s best interests. Now, that’s not to say that there aren’t conflicts of interest. There are. You know, if you’re in a AUM model, an Assets Under Management model, where you’re charging a percent of the assets that you’re managing, if a client has inherited $50,000 and they have $50,000 in debt or they could put $50,000 into their investments, from that perspective, you’re better off for them to — in terms of your compensation — for them to invest. So there are conflicts, even in the fee-only world, so it’s important to understand what those are. But in fee-only, it’s much, much less. And that’s important.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and I think that speaks to the importance of fiduciary as well and that they are obligated to act in your best interests, that situation being a good one. And kind of putting a bow around this, as you talked, Tim, the words that stand out to me are — as you’re evaluating a planner — is do they have the credentials? What’s the scope of the service they’re providing? And how are they deriving their fees? So obviously we talk here, we believe firmly in the CFP given its rigorous education requirements, given its hours of experience, the examination someone has to be able to pass, their competencies. So the credential is No. 1. Second would be the scope. We talked about the importance of comprehensive planning, making sure that they’re addressing all parts of the financial plan and aren’t incentivized to spend their time in one area more than the other. And then their fee, where are they deriving their fee? Where’s that fee coming from? Is it transparent? Do you understand it? And is it being done in a way that has your best interests in mind. And that’s what I always tell people, one of the things I’m most proud of of the service that we built — you really built — at YFP Planning is that the fee is the fee, right? The service is the service, the fee is the fee. It’s there, it’s on the table. We’ve got nothing to hide, and we obviously stand behind the quality of what we do in that service. So Tim, for our listeners that are hearing this episode saying, “You know what, I’ve been thinking about a planner for some time, I see the value, I heard about all of the things that are covered in that planning engagement, that planning relationship, and I’d love to learn a little bit more and figure out are the services offered by YFP Planning,” are they a good fit for the individual and what their considering with their own financial plan? What would be the best next step for them as they vet that decision further?

Tim Baker: Yeah, so you can go to YourFinancialPharmacist.com, there’s a big green button, two big green buttons that say “Book a Free Financial Planning Call,” so that would be either with myself or Tim Ulbrich, and we would see, again, if we would be a good fit. So that would be the best avenue. Like I said, a lot of people right now are thinking about man, this has been a tough year, I really want to get my stuff together as we transition into a new year. So it’s a busy time of year, but I think it’s kind of the best time to take stock of where you’re at and really where you want to go and have the financial plan, support that life plan that we talk about where it’s not just about the 1’s and 0’s. So YourFinancialPharmacist.com, click the button, “Book a Free Call,” and we’d be happy to see if we’re a good fit.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, and we hope we’ll have a chance to talk with many of you here as we wrap up 2020, head into 2021, looking forward to setting those goals, setting that plan for the New Year. And as always, we appreciate you joining us on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. And if you haven’t already done so, we would love to have you leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to this show each and every week, which will help other pharmacy professionals find the work that we’re doing on the podcast. And we also would love to have you join us at the Your Financial Pharmacist Facebook group, a community of more than 7,000 pharmacy professionals all across the country that are committed to helping one another on their path towards achieving financial freedom. Thanks again for joining, and have a great rest of your week.

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YFP 179: How Josh and Kara Tackled $188k of Student Loans in 28 Months

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How Josh and Kara Tackled $188k of Student Loans in 28 Months

Pharmacists Josh and Kara Soppe join Tim Ulbrich to share their journey of paying off $188,000 of student loan debt in 28 months. Josh and Kara dig into why they chose to aggressively tackle their student loans, their strategy for paying them off, how they created and implemented a budget, and their plans now that their student loans are paid in full.

About Today’s Guests

Josh and Kara Soppe met at Ohio Northern University in 2013 and now reside in Dayton, Ohio. Josh graduated from ONU in 2018 and is a Clinical Informatics Pharmacist with the Kettering Health Network. Kara graduated from ONU in 2019, completed a PGY1 Pharmacy Practice Residency at Kettering Medical Center (KMC), and stayed on at KMC as a Staff/Clinical Hybrid Pharmacy Specialist.

In 2017, they attended Tim Church and Tim Ulbrich’s book launch for Seven Figure Pharmacist: How to Maximize Your Wealth, Eliminate Debt, and Create Wealth. Josh and Kara read the book together and were intrigued by the aggressive student loan pay-off strategy. During pharmacy school, they started developing a plan to eliminate student debt within 2.5 years of Josh’s graduation. Freedom from student debt allows them to focus on their goals to become foster parents, own real estate properties, and save aggressively for retirement.

They are excited to share with you the steps they took to pay off $188,163.71 of student loan debt 27.5 months after Josh’s graduation.

Summary

Josh and Kara Soppe share their incredible journey of paying off $188,163.17 of student loans in 27.5 months. Although their debt load is more modest than many pharmacist couples graduating today, $188,000 is still a lot to tackle. Josh explains that he was aware of student loan debt before he started applying for colleges in high school. While in college Josh found scholarships and grants and took a position in residence life to reduce his debt load. Kara became really aware of how much she was taking out in student loans when her first loan installment dropped. She became proactive in reducing her debt by working as a pharmacy intern and taking a position in residence life.

Josh and Kara were motivated to pay off their debt quickly because of a few key principles they wanted to instill in their lives: tithing and giving, growing their family through biological children, adopting and fostering, and real estate investing. They had these conversations while they were still in college and knew they had to make sacrifices along the way so that they could reach those goals quicker.

Josh shares that they took a mathematical strategy to pay down their debt and went after the higher interest rates first. They also refinanced their loans multiple times to get lower rates and cash bonuses. They were paying, on average, $6,700 a month and had to give up luxuries like new furniture, new cars and eating out to reach their debt pay off goal. Josh and Kara share how they were able to make such large payments each month and what their plans are now that they are debt free.

Mentioned on the Show

Episode Transcript

Tim Ulbrich: Josh and Kara, welcome to the show.

Josh Soppe: Hey, thank you. We’re excited to be here.

Kara Soppe: Yeah, we’re very thrilled.

Tim Ulbrich: I really appreciate you guys taking time to come on to share your debt free journey. And Josh, I appreciate you reaching out. I was happy to read your message you sent me on LinkedIn about how you and Kara were able to aggressively pay off your debt, $188,000, in 28 months. Actually, $188,163.71 — in case anyone was counting — of student loan debt in 27.5 months and were able to do this even while Kara was finishing up her PharmD at Ohio Northern University — go Polar Bears! — and completing her PGY1 residency. So appreciate your willingness to share your story as I’m sure it will be impactful for many of our listeners that are facing perhaps a similar situation. So before we dig into how you paid off the debt, what worked, what didn’t work, what’s ahead for you, what was the motivation, I’d like to hear from both of you about your backgrounds and careers in pharmacy thus far since graduating as I think we’re going to see some crossover as we talk about how that has impacted your financial plan. So Kara, let’s start with you. Tell us about your journey thus far since completing your PharmD at Ohio Northern.

Kara Soppe: So I graduated from Ohio Northern University in 2019, so it was a little over a year ago. And I landed a PGY1 pharmacy practice residency at Kettering Medical Center in Dayton, Ohio. So I completed that over the last year. And then fortunately, during COVID, I was able — there was an open position at Kettering, and I was able to stay on as a staff-clinical hybrid pharmacy specialist there. And that is the role that I’m continuing in. I’ve been in that role for about 4-5 months now.

Tim Ulbrich: Great. And Josh, how about you?

Josh Soppe: I graduated from Ohio Northern University in 2018, so a year before Kara. And I opted against a residency at the time and took a pretty unique job working on the pharmacy billing or insurance claims side of things and did that for almost two years. And then took on this new job working in the hospital on clinical informatics.

Tim Ulbrich: Very good. So you guys have been out of school for a couple years now, a little over a couple years, Josh, a little over a year, Kara, finishing up your PGY1 residency and now in your hybrid clinical specialist role. And so I think when folks hear that and they’re like, wait a minute, 2018, 2019, and you paid off what? How much? And how were you able to do that? So we’re going to dig into that. I first want to start with — and I’d love to hear from both of you. Josh, let’s start with you and then Kara, we’d like to have you follow up as well, when you talk about and think about that kind of a debt load, $188,000, which to be fair, for two pharmacy graduates, if we were to add together what would be the median debt load today for a class of 2020 grad, $175,000, and put that together, that’d be a little over, of course, $300,000, about $350,000. So here, together, you know, it’s a big number, but it’s a number that our audience is certainly familiar with probably from their own situation. So Josh, when you think of that number and that journey, talk to us about what your feelings were towards the debt, not only during repayment but also while you were in school and while you were in that accrual phase, whether or not it was something that was really, really top of mind for you.

Josh Soppe: I can say that being aware of that debt load — oh I guess first of all, I want to say that for us each being at about, well, together at about $180,000, we’re very fortunate to be in that position. No, I do want to say that speaking of the debt, I was aware of it before I even started applying for colleges back in high school. And I didn’t really have a full understanding. I just knew that student debt could be a big problem for a lot of people. And I took that into account when I was choosing careers and choosing university. And so throughout college, I paid very much attention to some scholarships or grants, tuition raises through every year, and made sure that I was working all the way throughout all six years of university. I took on a position in residence life and did my best to put myself in a position to get paid more and compensated more so I could minimize that debt load throughout school.

Tim Ulbrich: And Josh, I can’t remember if we talked about this before, but I also had some time in residence life at Ohio Northern. So fellow RA nerds here talking personal finance. So exciting times. Kara, as you looked at that debt scenario — and obviously as you guys began to tackle that as a couple — tell us about your feelings toward the debt, both while you were in school and then as you went through active repayment.

Kara Soppe: Yeah. When I started college, I don’t think the number had hit me quite yet. When I was in high school, you know, I’d seen the numbers, it didn’t really impact me that much until that first loan installment dropped. And I was like, oof, yikes, now I have this behind my name. So I thought it would be really important at least — and I always heard that your interest that you get in school will capitalize with your principal when you graduate after a few months, and that terrified me a little bit. So kind of similar to Josh, I had that mindset as like, I need to do stuff now to try to reduce my debt load and to make it easier when I graduate. So when I graduated, I was ready and I was prepared and the number didn’t scare me so much. And just like Josh, I also worked. I was a pharmacy intern throughout school, and I also was in residence life as well, which significantly helped us reduce the amount of debt load that we would have had because we were able to get some of our room and board paid for by those needs.

Tim Ulbrich: Yeah, so what I heard there, Josh and Kara, which I think is a good reinforcement is you know, yes, you had a big number to work with, $188,000, but through work, through residency life, through minimizing some of the housing expenses, through scholarships and other opportunities, you’re able to do whatever you could to keep that amount in check or I guess as at least in check as possible just given the reality of two individuals going through a doctorate pharmacy program. And that’s one of the messages that I often will try to reinforce to students is that as I’ve said on the show before, this can easily feel like Monopoly money. And there’s a certain point when you get to what can look like or feel like a point of no return where hey, I’m already $150,000 in debt, what’s another $10,000? What’s another $15,000? Or what’s another $20,000? And I think you see this often happen with experiential training year where expenses go up, may not be able to work as much, housing expenses might go up, travel expenses, interviews, and so on. And so I think this is a good reinforcement in your story of trying to do everything that you can, even if it’s multiple things that may not feel like any one of those has a significant impact in and of itself that collectively, they can help give that student loan debt number and keep it as low as possible. So Kara, I want to start with you — and Josh, please chime in as well — you know, one of the things that I always like to ask folks before we talk about OK, what was the budget, how did you do it, tell us about the strategy, is what was the reason? What was the rationale? What was the why? What was the motivating factor for you guys to say you know what, we want to go after this $188,000 of debt, and we want to do it really aggressively. Here again, we’re talking about 27.5 months. And so you could have taken this out 20 or 25 years, have a low monthly payment, probably refinance to a low interest rate, and moved on with other priorities. So what was the motivation? What was the why behind your aggressive repayment?

Kara Soppe: There were a few key principles for us that are very important, especially when it comes to our values that contributed, just aside from goals. So we had to consider our goals and our priorities. I mean, that was huge. So during school, as Josh and I were working toward a marriage, we were having open conversations about what our goals were going to be, and we both are actively involved in our church, and that was huge as well. We wanted to be able to be financially free from debt so we can be able to tithe and to give. We also wanted to make sure that we would be in a position to be able to support a family and to one day we want to — we felt like on our hearts, it was a calling to not only have biological kids but we also want to get involved with foster care and adoption. And then something more recently that we had discussed in order to maximize our income a little bit is we want to get into real estate investing. So these are goals and priorities that we had started developing in school. And now we have further developed those. But the key underlying principle for us to make sure that those things happen is that we didn’t want to be — there’s a phrase in Proverbs of the Bible that says, “The borrower is a slave to the lender.” And although we had lower interest rates on some of our loans, financial advisors probably would advise us to maybe take a step back, it was more important for us to be able to have flexibility in the end versus having some of the luxuries that we could be having now, which there’s nothing wrong with that. It just wasn’t necessarily a goal of ours was to be able to right now, you know, save up for a house or to get a new car or things like that. So it was flexibility was big for us. We wanted to have that flexibility to be able to do the things we want to do.

Tim Ulbrich: And Josh, were you and Kara always on the same page about that? Or how did you as a couple work through to identify what the shared goals were, which ultimately determined how you were going to handle these student loans.

Josh Soppe: These conversations really started while we were dating. And we were generally on the same page as far as yeah, we don’t want to be strapped with student loans. And I guess the only difference we had to deal with was how we were going to get there and how aggressive we were going to get there. We kind of had to tune in and sync up with the exact steps that we were going to take to tackling the debt.

Tim Ulbrich: Tell me more about that, Josh, when you say kind of determining how aggressive we may or may not be. Are we talking about, you know, big differences of low monthly payments, long repayment? Or it’s a matter of hey, 27 months versus 36 months and being able to prioritize some other things if we cool off the aggressiveness of that?

Josh Soppe: I think a lot of it just had to do with the sacrifices, really, the sacrifices we would have to make and what level of standard of living that we were agreed to live with during the amount of time that we would be in loan repayment.

Tim Ulbrich: And then talk to us, Josh, about the strategy. Did you guys stay in the federal system and just make extra payments and cut down that amortization table and obviously get them paid off? Did you refinance them? What was the strategy to actually execute on this aggressive repayment.

Josh Soppe: As far as the actual repayment goes, we went after the mathematical approach. So we went after the highest interest rates, which were also the largest portion of our student debt. And so we refinanced basically all of our student loans, and we did it multiple times. We went after the rewards that YFP gives when we sign up for the student loan refinances. And we were able to take out some other expenses and throw some more money right back into these loans using those bonuses.

Tim Ulbrich: I call that the Tim Church refinance strategy, the multiple refinances. And you know, just so our listeners are aware — and I always like to make sure people understand that when it comes to choosing your loan repayment strategy, there is no one right path. And it really comes down to, you know, determining all of the options that are out there and available to you, then aligning with your goals, with the math, evaluating those options, evaluating the current scenario. So here we are in November of 2020 where we have kind of a uncharted territory with the COVID-19 pandemic and the CARES Act where there’s a freeze on federal loans and interest rates, so obviously refinancing in the moment for those that have federal loans doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, if any sense at all. But obviously for you all, that decision had already been made and re-refinancing obviously could have had a positive impact. And so you know, Kara, as you reflect back on this journey, $188,000 in 27.5 months, there had to be sacrifices that were made in being able to do that. So talk to us about what those sacrifices were and then how you were able to evaluate and determine that ultimately was worth those things to be able to get these off your back.

Kara Soppe: Sure. I had mentioned before that for us, we wanted to — flexibility was more important than having certain luxuries. So when we were developing our budget, which we started doing that once Josh knew where he was going to be after graduation. We were able to get his salary, so we knew how much money we had to work with. But we had determined that we would get a lot of like — because we needed to somehow get stuff for an apartment and we needed to find a place to live, and we had to determine what our rent was going to be. But ahead of time, we had determined how much we had wanted to spend on rent. So we were able to do that. But just some other sacrifices we had, like we didn’t really get entirely new stuff for our apartment. We got a lot of furniture for free. So we had looked — luckily, Josh’s parents had a lot of stuff in their basement. So although it wasn’t the nicest stuff, we were able to furnish our apartment that way. And the stuff worked, so that’s what mattered to us. So that was one sacrifice we made was not buying brand new stuff to furnish our apartment. Another sacrifice that we made included how we decided we were going to spend money on groceries. Instead of eating out, which is definitely convenient, those costs can get really expensive. So although it’s more convenient, it’s cheaper to buy groceries, especially when you shop at Aldi. And we are huge Aldi shoppers. We still shop at Aldi, even after paying off our debt, because we had seen the food’s still good there, and it’s cheaper, and it helps being able to not eat out as often and be able to spend that money on those groceries. We’re able to use our money for other things. So those are two big things that we did. A couple other limitations that we had were to limit our costs on entertainment, and then we wanted to make sure that we maintained cars we already had. So I still have my first car that I ever had. It’s a 1999 Saturn SC2.

Tim Ulbrich: Wow.

Kara Soppe: And it’s still going strong.

Tim Ulbrich: Do they make those anymore?

Kara Soppe: No.

Josh Soppe: No.

Tim Ulbrich: OK, yeah.

Kara Soppe: So I had bought it for a good price, and it’s still running. And although the mirror on the side is taped up, actually both mirrors are taped up, I still drive it around, and it still works. And then Josh drives a 2009 Honda Civic, and that has about 187,000 miles on it. But that car is going strong as well.

Tim Ulbrich: So Josh, you’re driving around the — what looks like relatively the brand new car, 2009, relative to a 1999.

Josh Soppe: Right. Spankin’ new.

Tim Ulbrich: Brand spankin’ new. So what did that look like, Josh, you know, in terms of for the two of you, the budgeting process. So you know, we often talk about when one is choosing a student loan repayment strategy, especially if you’re going this route where it’s aggressive debt repayment, you’ve gotta be able to know how much can we put toward these loans each and every month? Because obviously you want to know if you can make the minimum payment but here, also make extra payments, to then be able to determine what is the payoff timeline and so forth. So in order to do that, you’ve got to have some type of budgeting system, whether that’s very well defined or more loose in nature that can help you determine what that number is. So talk to us about the system that you and Kara used for budgeting and then how that ultimately led to determining what you were able to put towards your student loans each and every month.

Josh Soppe: We used a tool called Mint you can find on Mint.com to help us with the budgeting. And as far as the approach that we took for paying off our student loans and reaching our financial goals, we first kind of looked at obviously our big life goals, right? We started there and looked at the big picture and started whittling away and going into more and more detail. So we specifically for paying off student loans, we thought, we figured out, OK, so how soon do we want to have these paid off? And of course, the answer is as soon as possible. So after that, then we looked at the budget and kind of looked at, OK, so how much does it cost to at least get by with the minimal standard of living that we’re willing to have and kind of estimated everything from there. And as far as looking at the budget, the best thing to do with at least lowering costs is to start with the biggest expenses and move down to the smallest expenses. So the biggest one would be housing. That’s typically the biggest one for most people. Second is transportation or a car if that’s something that you do. And then third for us, at least, was food. So that was the next highest one. And of course, charity you can throw up there if you decide to do that. And then whittle around from there with utilities and bills, gifts, and other things after that. So we kind of, we started with those large expenses and tried to whittle those down as much as possible. And that’s when we had a better idea, OK, so this is — these are probably the expenses that we’re going to have per month. And once we get that number, we’re able to project how soon we could pay off our loans and then we decided whether or not that’s something that we’re going to go with. And so eventually, it came down to that and came around to a projection of about two years, so about 24 months. And with changes over the two years, it ended up being 28.

Tim Ulbrich: And I like what you just said there, Josh, about being able to project the payoff date because I think when you’re trying to achieve any big financial goal, here we’re talking about debt repayment, the same could be true for saving for a house, the same could be true for saving for a longer term goal such as a wedding or an adoption of a child or whatever be a big monetary goal that’s off into the distance, it can be very easy to lose motivation along the way. And you can start on that journey, but you want to have some accountability to help you one, stay motivated, see progress, but also make sure you’re aligning and fitting it in with the rest of your financial goals and of course those things you’re having to spend money on each and every month so that you can make sure it’s prioritized. So Josh, you mentioned there at the end that you had a 24-month goal, obviously it went to 27.5 months, still incredible, but because of some circumstances along the way that may have impacted that. And one of the things that you shared with me is that you mentioned that as a part of this repayment plan or journey, of course we had a year of residency, which we all know — I know from firsthand experience, many of our listeners know — means a lower income period earning income for Kara during her PGY1 but also that you experienced a 40% pay cut while you were on this journey. So tell us about kind of the background of that story, where that pay cut come from, and how that may have derailed your plan but you were able to kind of reshift things back, even if it meant a little bit of a delay to ensure that you stayed focused on this goal of debt repayment.

Josh Soppe: So part of going back to looking at financial goals, what I mentioned, like looking at things big picture, thinking about life goals, right? I had always had a liking towards computers and IT, Information Technology. And with pharmacy, as many people know, right out of school, there really isn’t a place to go with that. It’s very difficult. And so when I first got out of school, I took a job that was like the closest thing that you could possibly get to it, get to working in IT, at least had opportunities for me to make some changes and make some moves using my IT skills. And so when an opportunity came up nearby, locally, for me to take to get into informatics, which I had taken a liking to, I applied for a pharmacist position there and ended up getting a position on the pharmacy IS team, not as a pharmacist but as an analyst with the goal of when they expand the team or a position opens up, I would at least — I would have the skills and the experience to move in that way. So in some way, you could look at it as that right there, what I’m going through now, is my residency. Taking that 40% pay cut, which ended up being about $50,000, that was I guess an obstacle that we were willing to take for me to be in a position that I could see a lot of growth in and a lot of satisfaction.

Tim Ulbrich: So Josh, as you share that 40% reduction in pay, obviously that’s a significant dollar amount, and you mentioned that your projected timeline of payoff was 24 months, obviously that got extended a little bit to 27.5, round up 28 months. But in the scheme of things, 3.5-4 months, no big deal. So did this change, which had better alignment of your interests career-wise although it resulted in a reduction of pay — did it have a significant impact on actually delaying your aggressive debt repayment? Or was it more of a mental mindset and a hurdle you had to get over to say, yeah, it’s a step back, but we’re going to stay on this path toward aggressive repayment?

Josh Soppe: I think for us, it definitely was a look into the future and looking at long-term investment into this kind of pay cut. And of course, the number — the way the numbers work out, it was going to take a little bit longer to pay off those loans. And we had looked at like is that something that we’re willing to do looking at the long-term payout from the potential of me moving into a position that I am in now. And I think for a lot of people and what we looked at it was to weigh the risks versus benefits. And we saw that the benefits of this job change to heavily outweigh the risks.

Tim Ulbrich: And speaking of benefits, Kara, you know, when I think of this type of debt load, $188,000 over 28 months, if anybody’s doing some quick math here — hopefully not while they’re driving — that’s a little over on average, $6,700 per month over 28 months. Obviously it may have been higher or lower some months to get that debt load paid off. So you know, one of my questions here, speaking of benefits, is well now you don’t have to make that payment. Now you don’t have to make a $6,700 a month on average payment, which means coming full circle, we can start to invest those monies towards the other goals and priorities you had mentioned in terms of your goals of your own family and fostering and real estate and saving for retirement. So how does that feel, Kara? And what is ahead for you guys, you know, kind of month by month here as you look forward of how you’re going to reallocate these dollars that were going toward student loans that you can now put towards other goals?

Kara Soppe: Yeah. I mean, it feels great now that we have that money freed up. It’s still — it took a couple months I think for it to fully hit us that we are able to use that money for other things and to finally start achieving some of those other goals. But we had to go back to thinking well, if we didn’t pay off our debt so early, we wouldn’t be here in this position to be able to start working toward these other goals. So out of those goals that I had mentioned earlier, we think the key thing first to be able to start getting those in place is we’re actually starting to save up for a down payment on a house. And we had a goal to start shopping around for a house by late winter, early spring. So the fact that we have about $6,000 freed up each month to be able to do that is huge. And now, since we went so aggressively toward our student loans, now we can kind of start not just focusing on one goal. We can start focusing on multiple goals at once, which is what most people do throughout their lives as they’re raising kids and they have a house to finance and they have other things they’re saving up for and then going on vacations, things like that. So that’s a huge thing. And then we also want to — which we haven’t started doing this yet — but we also want to contribute to an adoption fund that we had already gotten started. Instead of for our wedding, instead of doing a wedding registry, we actually set up an adoption fund. So we want to start contributing to that more. So we are going a little aggressively saving up for a house quickly. But we believe that doing so will allow us to open up the opportunity to own an investment property, to start having — we want to be able to have a good place where we have space to have a family. And then when we are considering — another thing that I want to mention in terms of what we are looking for in a house is it’s not our end-all, be-all home. We actually want to consider that using that property eventually as a rental property. So getting this house is one step to be able to do that. Now, we’re still talking about whether we want to purchase like a duplex where we live on one side of it and then we rent out the other side or we purchase a property where we live in it temporarily, we kind of remodel it a little bit to be able to rent out eventually, that we’re not entirely sure yet. We’re still having conversations about that. But this is a huge step for us to be able to reach that goal as well.

Tim Ulbrich: That’s awesome. And I love the intentionality of kind of what you guys have in mind, and I can tell there’s been lots of discussions about where you’re going to be putting that money and how you prioritize it. And I’m sure that will be an evolution over time, but nonetheless, the open communication and these conversations are so important, not only through debt repayment to stay motivated but also post-debt repayment to make sure that you’re being intentional with the dollars that were going towards debt that you can now allocate towards the rest of your plan. Josh, one of the questions I’d like to start with you — and Kara, I’d like to hear from you as well — I like to ask is, you know, we know, I know from being married for — we just celebrated, my wife and I, our 13-year anniversary — this topic is difficult to handle, even in the best of marriages. And I think for obvious reasons, we’ve all heard the statistics before about couples and finances and so forth. And so I’d like our listeners to get an inside look to for you and Kara, you know, the system that has worked for the two of you — and I always say there’s no right or wrong answer here in terms of, you know, is it shared decision-making, is it one person taking the lead, whatever that looks like for the two of you. But what has worked, perhaps, for the two of you? Obviously something has worked here. And if you’ve had any lessons you’ve learned along the way, maybe things that didn’t work and how you guys have pivoted.

Josh Soppe: Alright. So for the last two years, our approach obviously before we get married, we already started having these conversations. That was very important for us to agree, hey, this is kind of how we want to handle our finances in general, right? But as far as the details go, the last two years, I have mostly taken the lead on actually dealing with the numbers and looking at our options. And I would look at our options, the different ways that we could go or that we might be interested to go, kind of listening to what Kara is thinking, and I’d put that into numbers and projections. And once I get those numbers and projections, then I bring it back to her and kind of talk to her like, hey, is this — “I kind of want to take this route. Would you — what do you think about that versus this other route?” that she might want to work with. And so we’ve had to kind of just constantly have those talks either weekly or monthly. And it’s become less and less frequent as we have a better idea, like hey, here’s our big stuff, we’ve kind of got a routine with it. But that’s how we started and making sure that we come to an agreement with how we handle our finances.

Tim Ulbrich: Great. Kara, anything to add there?

Kara Soppe: I think in summary, we really wanted to focus on stewarding our finances proactively. So especially in the beginning as we were starting to join our lives together, a lot more of those conversations had to happen. And I think personally, I — Josh and I are both very frugal. But Josh is definitely more frugal than me. And I have a little bit more of a tendency to want to spend a little bit more money than he would. But I appreciate that we were able to have those conversations because if we didn’t, we wouldn’t have been able to hold each other accountable and keep each other on track. Intentionally setting aside time to discuss our financial plan was huge. And the earlier on that we did it, the better. And I say that for listeners, for students, for new grads, for even pharmacists out there who are trying to look to achieve this kind of goal and actually want to start aggressively tackling their debt, like it’s not too late to start. It can start now. But you know, the earlier, the better. It will definitely help you achieve your goal sooner. So I just want to encourage people to make sure that they have a level of communication with their spouse or their family; that played a huge role for us.

Tim Ulbrich: Great advice. And I appreciate you both sharing there. And I think your story, as I mentioned at the beginning, is going to be an inspiration to many. And so I appreciate your time coming on the show to share your story of paying off $188,000 of student loan debt in 28 months. And really, I’m excited for what that means for the two of you going forward. You mentioned obviously working on a down payment for a home, you mentioned the adoption fund, you mentioned the real estate investing is a priority, and I’m sure there will be other things that will come for you guys in the future. So again, congratulations. And we’re excited to be able to share this story with the YFP community. And to our listeners, we thank you again for joining us on this week’s episode of the Your Financial Pharmacist podcast. And for those that are hearing this wondering, you know, do I have the optimal student loan repayment strategy in place for my own personal situation, make sure to check out a lot of our resources that we have on the website but also the “Pharmacist’s Guide to Conquering Student Loans,” our newest book written by our very own Tim Church, available at PharmDLoans.com. And if you haven’t yet done so, please leave us a rating and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to the show each and every week so that other pharmacy professionals can find the work that we’re doing and the community is doing here at Your Financial Pharmacist. Have a great rest of your week.

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